# ROH's Battle In The Carolinas Weekend Discussion Thread



## EffectRaven (Dec 9, 2007)

Meh

Filler shows before Final Battle. Should be entertaining matches though. I like the idea of a ROH Royal Rumble


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## jawbreaker (May 16, 2009)

the shows are called "Northern Aggression" and "Southern Defiance"? seriously? aren't those like Civil War propaganda terms?


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## jizzle313 (Mar 5, 2005)

EffectRaven said:


> I like the idea of a ROH Royal Rumble


They did it back in 2008. It was called the "Honor Rumble".


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## EffectRaven (Dec 9, 2007)

Really? Huh

I guess the fact that I started following ROH in 2009 is starting to show. I have to look into that


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## KingCrash (Jul 6, 2007)

I wonder who's going to be in the Ruckus role that wins this Rumble? My guess is this is where Bennett gets his title shot. And is Davey over in Japan in early December because it'd seem like he would be in the 8 man main instead of El Generico.


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## Fighter Daron (Jul 14, 2011)

KingCrash said:


> I wonder who's going to be in the Ruckus role that wins this Rumble? My guess is this is where Bennett gets his title shot. And is Davey over in Japan in early December because it'd seem like he would be in the 8 man main instead of El Generico.


I'd assume so since he's one half of the junior tag teams champs in New Japana.

My god, that two hours time limit just seems TOO crazy.


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## FITZ (May 8, 2007)

They should go the full 2 hours just for the lols.

Those main events just scream, "B-Show."


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## SuperDuperSonic (Apr 7, 2008)

ROH appears to be determined to kill their attendance numbers for the Carolinas, just like they successfully did so with New Jersey, Connecticut, and Buffalo, just to name a few.


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## topper1 (Apr 13, 2011)

I have never been so un interested in ROH as I am now. The roster is awful and 98% of the matches have been done.


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## Neutronic (Oct 2, 2011)

You guys act like ROH does a Battle Royal every other show

Its a nice change of pace


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## Legend (Nov 3, 2006)

This is ... weird. ROH are really going to have to try and swell their roster to avoid more shows like this.


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## seabs (Jun 16, 2007)

*New Japan have a PPV on the 12/4 so I'm presuming he's on that. He's on the 11/12 PPV and there's a tour starting on the 18/11 so he's probably doing that. If Davey's going to be doing semi regular New Japan tours then ROH either need to have him drop the belt sooner rather than later or book their shows around Davey's New Japan tours. Already been too many shows without their champion on which isn't good.

Rumble is something different but it shouldn't be a main event thing. Opening match on a big show with the wrestlers working another match after is fine. Funny how they have a lot of matches with a title shot coming out of them now to make up for the fact that they've used up all 3 of the guys who actually deserve to be awarded a title shot. If a heel wins SOTF then a babyface is winning this or vice versa. 

8 man sounds god awful. 2 hour time limit is retarded. Isn't drawing anyone into the match and the implication that the match could go over an hour is likely turning people off. Definitely is me at least. Anyway 8 mans on shows with a depleted roster are retarded and it'll go way too long. Elimination rules no doubt help it though. Probably is going over 60 minutes actually with the elimination stip. Isn't any potential falls in that match that will matter either. Best would be Elgin pinning Haas or Benjamin I guess. Everything else makes no difference to the guy getting the pin and the guy getting pinned. *


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## Bubz (Jul 19, 2007)

To be honest, this sounds shit. It really sounds like they couldn't think of anything else to book.


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## Chismo (Nov 7, 2009)

I hate fuckin Battle Royals. Fuck this main event! And that 8-man Tag is going to be looooooooooong.


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## KingKicks (Nov 2, 2004)

Haas and Benjamin in a match that's likely going over an hour? Oh good god.

The rumble I don't mind, but the 8 man is just going to be horrific.


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## Matt_Yoda (Jun 19, 2011)

If these are the main events, then I'm" going to cringe at the undercard, but they're B shows so whatever they need to start building new markets and taking these shows seriously instead of throwing stuff at the wall and hope it sticks. ROH feels so damn chaotic these days it seems like they're booking things on the fly; everything feels all over the place when it honestly doesn't have to be.

ROH doesn't do Battle Royals a lot so I can give that a pass, but the 8 Tag Match full of guys in limbo and an hour is more than enough. Either Davey gives up New Japan (which he won't) or ROH needs to take the belt off of him. How does it make your promotion look when the face of your company and champion is a "Part-Timer." In hindsight they could've just kept the strap on Edwards at least he's showing up at every show.


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## Corey (Aug 11, 2006)

Well, I like the Battle Royal idea personally. I've always loved Royal Rumbles and I think it'll be cool to see it in a different company. New guy coming in every minute seems fast though. 90 seconds or even 2 minutes sounds better to me. There's only 20 guys. Regardless I think it'll be fun and it's definitely something different.

As far as the 8 man goes, fuck that. 2 hours? Ridiculous.


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## Corey (Aug 11, 2006)

New match added to Southern Defiance:

*Proving Ground*
Roderick Strong & Michael Elgin vs. Haas & Benjamin/All Night Express (whoever the tag champs are)


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## Chismo (Nov 7, 2009)

HoT better win this.


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## benturpen (Nov 8, 2011)

topper1 said:


> I have never been so un interested in ROH as I am now. The roster is awful and 98% of the matches have been done.


The "98% of the matches have bee done" was relevant most of the year, except the TV has had a lot of fresh stuff, over half of the Collinsville card was first time, Dayton/Chicago Ridge have a ton of first time and incredibly fresh matches and the Carolinas are going to be similar.


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## Scavo (Jun 26, 2011)

Cornette is really, and I mean really boring with this proving groud. When you better think about it, every non title match, EVERY, should be 'proving ground'.


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## Pat9010 (Oct 26, 2010)

Yeah idk why they would create a whole gimmick out of it. It basically has always been that way....if you pin the champ in a non-title match, you earn a shot. but these shows look to be pretty weak. The thought of an 8-man tag that could last (and probably will or else why even mention the time limit) 2 hours is just exhausting.


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## SuperDuperSonic (Apr 7, 2008)

It will likely go just a little over an hour. It's just a tease that will backfire.


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## benturpen (Nov 8, 2011)

Pat9010 said:


> Yeah idk why they would create a whole gimmick out of it. It basically has always been that way....if you pin the champ in a non-title match, you earn a shot. but these shows look to be pretty weak. The thought of an 8-man tag that could last (and probably will or else why even mention the time limit) 2 hours is just exhausting.


With the track record on TV thus far, the time limit will likely come into play more than champions actually getting pinned. 

Yeah, I don't really see the point in throwing the 2-hour time limit label on it if it doesn't at least surpass it. It's just an extra label to make it sound more important than just another filler main event for a house show. Which honestly, I can't blame them for. Either way, the match will go on much longer than it should. I'll be there live and I'm legitimately dreading it already. ROH main events since Delirious came in have already been way too long for the most part, so imagine what it's going to be like when they're actually promoting it as a long match.


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## EffectRaven (Dec 9, 2007)

Well here's my take on the 8-man

These are the kind of matches that are tolerable when extremely long atleast in my opinion. There are still 8 guys in the ring which almost guarantees non-stop action and entertainment... right? /wishfulthinking


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## Fighter Daron (Jul 14, 2011)

EffectRaven said:


> Well here's my take on the 8-man
> 
> These are the kind of matches that are tolerable when extremely long atleast in my opinion. There are still 8 guys in the ring which almost guarantees *non-stop action and entertainment*... right? /wishfulthinking


WGTT is there.


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## Scavo (Jun 26, 2011)

^^Lulz. That match will definitely go over 60-65 minutes. Haas and Benjamin are gonna make it look like it's 90.


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## Corey (Aug 11, 2006)

Yet another fresh matchup sogned for Southern Defiance, and yet another proving ground match:

*Proving Ground*
TV Champion Jay Lethal vs. TJ Perkins

I really like the way this show is lookin tbh.


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## Scavo (Jun 26, 2011)

Even no I'm bored with that proving ground rules, that should be awesome matchup.


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## Fighter Daron (Jul 14, 2011)

Jack Evans 187 said:


> *Proving Ground*
> TV Champion Jay Lethal vs. TJ Perkins


Looks really awful.


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## Scavo (Jun 26, 2011)

Why? It's not Hogan-Hardy for fuck sake.


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## jawbreaker (May 16, 2009)

that's like saying the Armenian genocide was okay because at least it wasn't the Holocaust.

actually not really, because Lethal-Perkins should be okay, but that's still the worst logic ever.


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## Neutronic (Oct 2, 2011)

Fighter Daron said:


> Looks really awful.


A fast paced action filled match between two similar sized guys looks awful

Ok


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## Fighter Daron (Jul 14, 2011)

Neutronic said:


> A fast paced action filled match between two similar sized guys looks awful
> 
> Ok


An exhibition match involving two lame guys, yeah.


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## Chismo (Nov 7, 2009)

Lethal/TJP will be awesome, but the Proving Ground again? "The Brilliant One" is runnin' wild, brother! Ah, those old days when when Champs defended their titles almost on every show...


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## KingCrash (Jul 6, 2007)

Should be a good match, plus for this instance if you made it a title match what would TJ have done to earn it?


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## Scavo (Jun 26, 2011)

I just wish Kevin Steen crahes every P. Ground match with package piledrivers just to stick it to Cornette.


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## EffectRaven (Dec 9, 2007)

Spartansburg already has the makings of an extremely fun show


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## Neutronic (Oct 2, 2011)

KingCrash said:


> Should be a good match, plus for this instance if you made it a title match what would TJ have done to earn it?


This

TJ has only really beat OVW guys in ROH


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## septurum (Mar 16, 2009)

ROH needs to go on a signing spree. Their roster is beyond weak right now.


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## Fighter Daron (Jul 14, 2011)

septurum said:


> ROH needs to go on a signing spree. Their roster is beyond weak right now.


Callihan, Gargano and Taylor, come on, ROH.


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## SHIRLEY (Jun 9, 2009)

FWIW they've just brought in: TJ, Young Bucks, C&C and Mondo (as a semi-regular). There's the promise of Japanese talent in the New Year and talk of expanding the women's ranks. 

The main roster issue, over the past few years, has been depth. This lack of depth was brought on by the lack of fly-ins, due to the tricky economy. SBG have already shown their willingness to bring in people from further and wider. The sky isn't anywhere near falling, as far as the roster goes.


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## jawbreaker (May 16, 2009)

Gargano and Taylor have DGUSA contracts and Callihan is terrible.


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## Fighter Daron (Jul 14, 2011)

jawbreaker said:


> Gargano and Taylor have DGUSA contracts and Callihan is terrible.


They could have contracts, but not TV. And well, about Callihan, he's better than some ROH main talent...Edwardsejem...ejemWGTT...


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## SHIRLEY (Jun 9, 2009)

What TV experience does Chuck Taylor have and what assets does he have that would get over well, with a broadcast TV audience? How would you establish him with the ROH fanbase, if he wasn't available for house shows? How would you use him to draw money, if he's not available for iPPVs?

I'm assuming that you've thought all of this through because you're giving off the impression that you know a lot more than ROH management. Please enlighten us all.


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## SuperDuperSonic (Apr 7, 2008)

Fighter Daron said:


> They could have contracts, but not TV. And well, about Callihan, he's better than some ROH main talent...Edwardsejem...ejemWGTT...


Eddie Edwards is the love child of Chris Benoit and Ricky Steamboat when being compared to Sami Callihan.


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## seabs (Jun 16, 2007)

*Goofy characters like Taylor don't fit in ROH, that's been proven time and time again with Colt being the only real exception to have lasting success in ROH with a goofy gimmick and even Colt lost loads of steam in the end.

I wouldn't say the actual depth of the roster is the problem any more. Guys like Elgin and Ciampa provide freshness, Bucks are back to sorta replace KOW and TJP is a fine midcard addition on top of Cole and O'Reilly still being new and fresh. The roster problem is with the top guys. Everything with Strong, Richards and Edwards has been done now and they barely have anyone suitable to throw into the main event mix without rushing an Elgin or a Ciampa before they're really ready and risk hurting them more than helping them in the long run. 

Midcard is fine with guys like Lethal, Generico, Bennett, TJP, Ciampa and Elgin along with the Steen/Corino/Jacobs angle.

Tag division is strong aside from WGTT holding the belts and being the focus of the division. Bucks, FutureShock, ANX and hopefully Strong/Elgin all provide quality and freshness plus you also have Briscoes on top of that. 

An addition of a regular womens slot on the card would only help. Get 4-5 regulars and have something going on like they did in 07 with Lacey/Haze/Danger and others. 

That just leaves the main event scene which is horribly stale and when that's the focus of the promotion it reflects badly on the rest of the card. Outsiders working main event matches is great for DVD shows and some TV tapings but it isn't the solution long term for iPPVs and other big shows. Steen is probably gonna be in there for 2012 which will help but it's more of a replacement for Strong who will hopefully drop back to the tag divison or midcard for 2012 but even with Steen you only really have Davey and/or Edwards to pair him with. It's not a solution they can fix by just deciding that they're gonna push a bunch of guys like Lethal, Bennett and Elgin all at once to the same position because people won't buy them. It's pretty much all their own fault because it's a situation that's been glaringly obvious would come ever since Danielson and Nigel left and now they've left it too late and they've got a major problem now that Hero and Claudio are gone too.*


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## Neutronic (Oct 2, 2011)

The main event scene will change early next year I bet

They have SOTF and the BR to determine a new contender


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## SuperDuperSonic (Apr 7, 2008)

I'd argue that there was some long-term damage done with the stubborn push of Jerry Lynn, delaying the title reigns of Tyler Black and Davey Richards, when in 2010-2011 they should have already been established as cream of the crop centerpieces (with title reigns already), and the next batch of main-eventeres should have been getting their first title reigns in the last 18 months.


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## benturpen (Nov 8, 2011)

The Proving Ground should be TV exclusive only. It's gonna hurt house shows.


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## Neutronic (Oct 2, 2011)

Do people not realize Proving Ground has been happening for years, they've just named it?

Whats with all the OMG PROVING GROUND sucks posts when this has been happening for years

It's called a "non-title" match


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## benturpen (Nov 8, 2011)

Neutronic said:


> Do people not realize Proving Ground has been happening for years, they've just named it?
> 
> Whats with all the OMG PROVING GROUND sucks posts when this has been happening for years
> 
> It's called a "non-title" match


Non-title matches have had 15 min. time limits for years? And that's going to be the deciding outcome much more often than the champ getting beat in the allotted period. That's what I think will hurt most house show matches, not to mention how the final minute dynamics of a time period usually hinders match quality.


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## jawbreaker (May 16, 2009)

it's because they gave it a name and some semi-rigid rules. they didn't need to do that.


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## Fighter Daron (Jul 14, 2011)

Shirley Crabtree III said:


> What TV experience does Chuck Taylor have and what assets does he have that would get over well, with a broadcast TV audience? How would you establish him with the ROH fanbase, if he wasn't available for house shows? How would you use him to draw money, if he's not available for iPPVs?
> 
> I'm assuming that you've thought all of this through because you're giving off the impression that you know a lot more than ROH management. Please enlighten us all.


What?, I was talking of him leaving Sapolsky.


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## Corey (Aug 11, 2006)

Matches added!

*Southern Defiance*

The Briscoes vs. Caprice Coleman & Cedric Alexander
The Young Bucks vs. The All Night Express
Eddie Edwards vs. El Generico !!!

*Northern Aggression*

The Young Bucks vs. Caprice Coleman & Cedric Alexander


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## EffectRaven (Dec 9, 2007)

Southern Defiance looks stacked

And Jackevans, that poster in your signature is sick!


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## Bubz (Jul 19, 2007)

Edwards and Generico had an awesome match in PWG back at ASW this year, unsurprisingly it was one of Eddies best matches ever, I hope for more of the same.


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## seabs (Jun 16, 2007)

*SD show looks much more appealing now with Bucks/ANX and Edwards/Generico added. Not expecting anything close to their PWG match this year from Edwards/Generico, mostly because it's on a ROH B show in a dark arena with a crowd that likely wont care that much. Feels like they're making the WGTT mistake all over again with YB by having them face every team straight away and ending up with no fresh matches to build to for them after just a few months. *


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## Neutronic (Oct 2, 2011)

Edwards and Generico havent had a singles match in ROH?

Weird


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## Matt_Yoda (Jun 19, 2011)

Yeah I agree the SC show looks much better now. Actually, the SC needs to come off better imo as this is their opportunity to build a new market they have to make a strong first impression. I don't have high expectations for the show but I'll be pulling for this to be a sleeper show so that I can cop the DVD.

I think Cornette and Lizardman are having a bit of a hard time settling into things which is why they're using up so many match combinations. The ROH roster isn't as big as it used to be so they can't pull that kind of booking (consistently fresh matchups) with a core roster and they need to realize that; there are ways to keep a product interesting using the guys you already have.


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## EffectRaven (Dec 9, 2007)

Just added to Northern Aggression: Proving Ground - Jay Lethal vs. Adam Cole

Should be a good undercard match


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## Fighter Daron (Jul 14, 2011)

EffectRaven said:


> Just added to Northern Aggression: Proving Ground - Jay Lethal vs. Adam Cole
> 
> Should be a good undercard match


Wow, I like it.


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## Neutronic (Oct 2, 2011)

Matt_Yoda said:


> I think Cornette and Lizardman are having a bit of a hard time settling into things which is why they're using up so many match combinations. The ROH roster isn't as big as it used to be so they can't pull that kind of booking (consistently fresh matchups) with a core roster and they need to realize that; there are ways to keep a product interesting using the guys you already have.


Kinda sucks that Gabe has the Dragon Gate guys under such a tight leash


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## SuperDuperSonic (Apr 7, 2008)

ROH and Dragon Gate burying the hatchet is on my pro wrestling 2012 wishlist. Both promotions would benefit from working together, leading to numerous fresh matches and a possibly heated rivalry, it could be used to get some new American indy guys over pretty big on the bigger ROH stage.


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## KingCrash (Jul 6, 2007)

Don't know if they'll ever get back together now due to competing ippvs and other things, but ROH and Dragon Gate getting back even in a limited partnership would be great. Gabe would probably lose his mind though.

Also updated the first page with the card currently up to date, would change the thread title if I knew how.


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## Chismo (Nov 7, 2009)

jawbreaker said:


> it's because they gave it a name and some semi-rigid rules. they didn't need to do that.


Another "brilliant" idea from the "Brilliant One" Jim Cornette.


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## smitlick (Jun 9, 2006)

JoeRulz said:


> Another "brilliant" idea from the "Brilliant One" Jim Cornette.


You do know Delirious books ROH as well


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## Chismo (Nov 7, 2009)

smitlick said:


> You do know Delirious books ROH as well


I'm pretty sure Jim Cornette outpowers him now when the SBG is in charge.


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## seabs (Jun 16, 2007)

*Blaming Cornette for everything that isn't brilliant when you don't know exactly how much control he has of the booking and what parts he's booking himself is kinda short sighted though.*



KingCrash said:


> Also updated the first page with the card currently up to date, would change the thread title if I knew how.


*Only mods can. Changed it seeing as we seem to be using the one thread for the whole weekend and match announcements.*


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## benturpen (Nov 8, 2011)

Really digging the SC card. Everything should just be a ton of fun.

The NC show may be the least interested I've ever been a week and a half out for any ROH show I'm/I've ever attended. Legit dreading that main event. Unless they add TJP/O'Reilly(And I don't even think O'Reilly is booked for the weekend) in a 30 minute ironman or something, nothing is going to get me excited about this show. Lethal/Cole should be pretty nifty at least.


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## Corey (Aug 11, 2006)

Mike Bennett's matches have been signed:

Southern Defiance - vs. Adam Cole
Northern Aggression - vs. TJ Perkins

That finalizes the Southern Definace card, which looks very good imo. Northern Aggression has 4 matches made with no one else on the talent list...


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## benturpen (Nov 8, 2011)

Jack Evans 187 said:


> Mike Bennett's matches have been signed:
> 
> Southern Defiance - vs. Adam Cole
> Northern Aggression - vs. TJ Perkins
> ...


Likely round it out with ANX/Bravados for a 5-match card. Assume they'll do an intermission and then go to the main. Oof.


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## jawbreaker (May 16, 2009)

Who's ready for a two-hour time limit draw?


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## SuperDuperSonic (Apr 7, 2008)

"FIVE MORE HOURS!"


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## KingCrash (Jul 6, 2007)

benturpen said:


> Likely round it out with ANX/Bravados for a 5-match card. Assume they'll do an intermission and then go to the main. Oof.


They have to be adding local talent to the shows or stretching out the times of the other match, still think there's no chance the main goes close to two hours.


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## Fighter Daron (Jul 14, 2011)

jawbreaker said:


> Who's ready for a two-hour time limit draw?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umDr0mPuyQc


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## Neutronic (Oct 2, 2011)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vaw8E-2sRCs&feature=feedu

God dammit I love the Bravados.

"These guys had premartial relations and brag about it"

Add the moustache+Justin Bieber haircut and you've got great comedy


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## Chismo (Nov 7, 2009)

jawbreaker said:


> Who's ready for a two-hour time limit draw?


"The Brilliant One" Jim Cornette.


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## Beatles123 (Jan 26, 2010)

Cornette's been doing fine, IMHO.


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## Rickey (Apr 27, 2008)




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## Neutronic (Oct 2, 2011)

I want a Briscoes reality show


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## Neutronic (Oct 2, 2011)

I just realized Davey isnt on either show

Is he on tour with NJPW?


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## FITZ (May 8, 2007)

If I were in that building I would probably end up walking out on the main event or not even going to the show for feat it would really last 2 hours. I have a feeling it will be the best example of ROH having a tag match just go a long time for the sake of being really long. My deepest sympathy for all fans in attendance if this goes over 1 hour.


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## geraldinhio (Feb 5, 2010)

_Two hours in insanely long for any match,I don't care who's in it. Even an hour time limit on this match would be too long IMO. Why not have a timelimit and just have a good 30-40 minute match? It screams Cornette's booking.

The only hope is Generico and the Briscoes , more so Generico but there's only so much he can do. Maybe have the Briscoe cut an hour long promo.

As bad as it sounds ,I can honestly see the majority of the crowd walking out, well a good few anyway._


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## SHIRLEY (Jun 9, 2009)

Neutronic said:


> I just realized Davey isnt on either show
> 
> Is he on tour with NJPW?


He's challenging Fergal-san.


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## SuperDuperSonic (Apr 7, 2008)

There is no reason for a multi man tag match to go that long unless it serves a purpose (ie, establishing four new blood guys as Generation Next.) This should be 30 minutes TOPS, and that is shoving it.

ALL of these guys are already established.


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## benturpen (Nov 8, 2011)

If I hadn't purchased my tickets two months ago for these shows, I would be seriously contemplating not attending Greensboro. And considering the distances I've traveled/driven for ROH in the past, and this one being one of the shortest of those trips, I think that says a lot. I'll try and be optimistic about this 8-man, but based on the 2011 ROH main event formula, and the company basically saying, with only a 5-match card and a 2-hour time limit, THIS WILL GO OVER A HOUR, I'm absolutely dreading it. Even if they do a bit of a swerve and do 50-minutes or something that will still be too long. Having said that, I'll get pretty excited about the match whenever WGTT get eliminated. The thought of them being on the apron/in the ring for over a hour... They NEVER get beat, so I suspect they'll probably do some dq eliminations between them and The Briscoes. Elgin and Generico REALLY need to last the entirety, or at least a large portion, of the match to hold my interest. Critical.

Can't wait for Spartanburg, show should be a blast!


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## SuperDuperSonic (Apr 7, 2008)

I'd just like to know what purpose this will actually serve. If Haas & Benjamin are pinned, what will that result in and actually MATTER? A tag title shot? Woopty-fucking-doo.


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## benturpen (Nov 8, 2011)

SuperDuperSonic said:


> I'd just like to know what purpose this will actually serve. If Haas & Benjamin are pinned, what will that result in and actually MATTER? A tag title shot? Woopty-fucking-doo.


And considering the Briscoes have a shot coming up and Elgin/Strong will likely earn one the night before...LOL. None. You really can't create anything in that sense from this match. The winners do now receive $10,000!

It's a match, on a filler show, without Davey Richards. "AN HISTORIC TWO HOUR TIME LIMIT EIGHT MAN ELIMINATION WITH ROH'S BEST!" But it's just a match. You throw those labels on it to make it sound more important than most realize it actually is and you'll try and sell DVDs off that. Looking forward to Cole/Lethal and Bucks/C&C, though!


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## Fighter Daron (Jul 14, 2011)

WGTT wrestling for 2 hours = Most bought DVD in the history of ROH.


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## Concrete (May 28, 2010)

I might be one of the few that would be okay with this match going over an hour. Do I want to see it go 2 hours? Hell no. If I guy gets eliminated every 10 minutes the match at max would be 1 hour and 10 minutes. I feel that should be max. It won't be but that's what I think


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## Neutronic (Oct 2, 2011)

The amount is whining over the 8 man is fucking pathetic


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## EffectRaven (Dec 9, 2007)

Neutronic said:


> The amount is whining over the 8 man is fucking pathetic


The amount of whining on this entire forum is fucking pathetic. But nothing new


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## jawbreaker (May 16, 2009)

The eight-man isn't really a bad idea in theory. If they did something like Edwards/Richards/O'Reilly/Cole vs. Strong/Elgin/Briscoes I could be interested. It's just that they've got probably the four wrestlers who I would least want to see in a match this long, and also Eddie Edwards. And you know Haas, Benjamin, and Edwards aren't going to lose clean, which means that we're probably going to get a few shitty DQ spots with the Briscoes and it'll end up Edwards/Generico vs. Strong/Elgin which could be fun, but will probably mean Super Eddie Beats All The Heels.

Basically I just see very little potential for it to be interesting enough for me to want to watch for over an hour. They booked SOTF really well on paper, so maybe I should be less pessimistic, but because of the constraints they put on themselves by having to "protect" the champions, the match doesn't seem like it'll be interesting.

Also the upside isn't really high, because the best case scenario IMO is Haas and Benjamin go out early and we've got a four-on-two with a long Generico workover, and then you've got to hot tag to Eddie Edwards and have him beat all the heels, which isn't particularly compelling either. And then worst-case scenario is Haas and Benjamin are in the thing the whole time and end up winning it, which would be the worst thing ever.

The best case, the worst case, and the most likely case are all much lower than I would like. Add that to the fact that it's been hinted that the match will go on for a very long time and there's plenty of reason to be less than enthusiastic.


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## SHIRLEY (Jun 9, 2009)

Not saying I'd buy it because I'm not exactly high on multi-man matches but a two-hour, 8-man tag would, absolutely, improve the DVD sales of a B-show.

You'd have to be completely out of touch with human psychology to think otherwise or, at least, not have a grasp on what a U.S.P. is.


----------



## SuperDuperSonic (Apr 7, 2008)

I believe you Crabtree. I've seen the facebook responses to ROH's hype of this match. Thank the Lord I am not that one of those suckers anymore.


----------



## KingCrash (Jul 6, 2007)

As per the newswire the winning team get $10000 and there will be a second ref at ringside. Hope the crowd doesn't die because that could make the match even worse. About the only good thing that could come out of this is if the Briscoes are the sole winners and they do various videos of them spending the money.


----------



## seancarleton77 (Jul 4, 2006)

8 Man All Star Elimination Tag Team Match- *Special 2 Hour Time Limit* 

Honest question, did I just dream that? That's a stupid fucking time limit.


----------



## Neutronic (Oct 2, 2011)

KingCrash said:


> As per the newswire the winning team get $10000 and there will be a second ref at ringside. Hope the crowd doesn't die because that could make the match even worse. About the only good thing that could come out of this is if the Briscoes are the sole winners and they do various videos of them spending the money.


I want a video of Mark at the dentist and Jay at a strip club


----------



## FITZ (May 8, 2007)

Shirley Crabtree III said:


> Not saying I'd buy it because I'm not exactly high on multi-man matches but a two-hour, 8-man tag would, absolutely, improve the DVD sales of a B-show.
> 
> You'd have to be completely out of touch with human psychology to think otherwise or, at least, not have a grasp on what a U.S.P. is.


I agree that it is something I'm interested about but I personally believe that it will be terrible because I've seen ROH have this horribly long matches with no substance too many times now. I fell asleep at Honor Takes Center stage during the Wolves/WGTT match and I questioned why I even watched wrestling at Best in the World while watching Elimination Tag Match. I've been through this with ROH before and I just don't believe that they are going to do this match the right way. 

I really hope I'm wrong, if the match gets great reviews it would certainly be something I would consider buying but on paper right now I have no desire to see it.


----------



## Beatles123 (Jan 26, 2010)

A thought here, but, Just because it IS two hours doesn't mean they have to go the full time limit, do they?

It could be just s way to go 60 minutes or so. I dunno.


----------



## Fighter Daron (Jul 14, 2011)

Beatles123 said:


> A thought here, but, Just because it IS two hours doesn't mean they have to go the full time limit, do they?
> 
> It could be just s way to go 60 minutes or so. I dunno.


And is that any good?


----------



## Beatles123 (Jan 26, 2010)

I'm just saying it may not be as bad as most think it will be.


----------



## KingCrash (Jul 6, 2007)

A 60 min. match would be fine, though not great and I still think they'll be some unannounced undercard matches with locals so they don't have to go the whole two hours. I just can't see how they can keep the crowd in it if they try to go for the whole two hours and a dead crowd's the last thing that match needs.


----------



## SuperDuperSonic (Apr 7, 2008)

Fighter Daron said:


> And is that any good?


"It's gonna be awesome, total MOTYC, I so wish I could be there, def DVD buy for me!" - typical ROH sucker

All that's missing in this match are McQueen's two favorite workers (Richards and Callihan).


----------



## Beatles123 (Jan 26, 2010)

SuperDuperSonic said:


> "It's gonna be awesome, total MOTYC, I so wish I could be there, def DVD buy for me!" - typical ROH sucker
> 
> All that's missing in this match are McQueen's two favorite workers (Richards and Callihan).


For the record, I'm not a fanboy but I AM interested to see if they can pull it off. 

I think ROH's been very good as of late. If someone wants to be a "Sucker", let em. At least they enjoy it. 

Meh, I'm just thinking out loud...

Looking forward to the show.


----------



## SuperDuperSonic (Apr 7, 2008)

They can't pull it off. There's nothing in that match that can happen which will matter (ie, be buzzworthy) besides a freak injury that throws plan out the window or a death.


----------



## seabs (Jun 16, 2007)

*All they've said is that there's a 2 hour time limit. That doesn't necessarily mean the match will even go over an hour, although I do think it'll go about 40-50.*


----------



## SuperDuperSonic (Apr 7, 2008)

40-50 is getting greedy.


----------



## spawnsyxx9 (May 4, 2009)

ROH southern defiance results:

Mike Bennett vs. Adam Cole: Mike Bennett over Adam Cole with the side effect. Quite a hot crowd.

The Bravados Brothers vs. Los Ben Dejos: The Bravados win with an assisted roll up.

TJP vs. Jay Lethal in a Proving Ground match. Lethals wins with a handstand springboard into ace crusher in about 11 mins.

The Young Bucks vs. ANX

More at http://wp.me/p1rVA2-35p


----------



## Beatles123 (Jan 26, 2010)

From the above link:

The Young Bucks vs. ANX: Bucks win with more bang for your buck. Ok match. Titus was selling the leg a ton late in the match.

Intermission

The Briscoes vs. Caprice Coleman & Cedric Alexander
The Briscoes win with the doomsday on Cedric. The Briscoes are BY FAR the biggest stars of the show thus far reaction wise.
Michael Elgin & Roderick Strong vs. WGTT in a Proving Ground match. 20-minute time limit.


----------



## Beatles123 (Jan 26, 2010)

El Generico vs. Eddie Edwards: Eddie Edwards wins in about 18 mins. via submission with the half crab. Really good match.
20-man Honor Rumble: They have a horn to signify each entrant.

hoping for a few surprises entrants!


----------



## spawnsyxx9 (May 4, 2009)

*FULL results*

Mike Bennett vs. Adam Cole: Mike Bennett over Adam Cole with the side effect. Quite a hot crowd.
The Bravados Brothers vs. Los Ben Dejos: The Bravados win with an assisted roll up.
TJP vs. Jay Lethal in a Proving Ground match. Lethals wins with a handstand springboard into ace crusher in about 11 mins.
The Young Bucks vs. ANX: Bucks win with more bang for your buck. Ok match. Titus was selling the leg a ton late in the match.
Intermission
The Briscoes vs. Caprice Coleman & Cedric Alexander
The Briscoes win with the doomsday on Cedric. The Briscoes are BY FAR the biggest stars of the show thus far reaction wise.
Michael Elgin & Roderick Strong vs. WGTT in a Proving Ground match. 20-minute time limit.
WGTT win in about 17 mins. with Shelton’s leaping top rope german release on Elgin. Pretty good.
El Generico vs. Eddie Edwards: Eddie Edwards wins in about 18 mins. via submission with the half crab. Really good match.
20-man Honor Rumble: They have a horn to signify each entrant.
Jay Briscoe cleans house on the first five entrants and Caprice Coleman.
WGTT/Briscoes eliminate each other and Grizzly is left alone with a few entrants to go.
The final four is Generico, Elgin, Strong, and Lethal.
Jay Lethal eliminates Roderick Strong to win the Honor Rumble and earn a future ROH World Title shot!
Good night from Spartanburg! We will have coverage of tomorrow’s Greensboro show starting around 4 pm est.


----------



## Beatles123 (Jan 26, 2010)

Looks like Bennett is getting the strap. Good. They can mold Lethal into a main evener now.


----------



## EffectRaven (Dec 9, 2007)

Totally called Lethal winning the title shot should be a great filler title defense for Richards


----------



## Corey (Aug 11, 2006)

I really wanna see that Rumble match, sounds awesome. Any word on how long it went?


----------



## jawbreaker (May 16, 2009)

Probably the best/only choice there.


----------



## seabs (Jun 16, 2007)

*Lethal's even more likely to drop the belt to Bennett at Final Battle now it seems otherwise Davey would have to beat the TV Champ and not take the belt. *


----------



## THECHAMPION (Dec 24, 2009)

Where they any cool entrants in the Honor Rumble?


----------



## Fighter Daron (Jul 14, 2011)

Pufff, fucking Lethal.


----------



## SuperDuperSonic (Apr 7, 2008)

I'd love Lethal to work with Davey, not only is a first time match, but Lethal can teach him how to SELL and get SYMPATHY.


----------



## Matt_Yoda (Jun 19, 2011)

Yeah not really all that surprising that Lethal is getting elevated to main event status, most people called it upon his return to the company. Now it makes since that he is going over everyone if they're building him towards top tier in the company. Lethal/Richards, Lethal/Strong, Lethal/Elgin, Lethal/Edwards and Lethal/Steen all sound like quality matches to me.


----------



## spawnsyxx9 (May 4, 2009)

About to start live coverage of Northern Aggression: http://wp.me/p1rVA2-36K

I will post results here too in steps but for live check out the link


----------



## seancarleton77 (Jul 4, 2006)

THECHAMPION said:


> Where they any cool entrants in the Honor Rumble?


I doubt it, Bobby Dempsey, like most men was watching UFC last night .


----------



## Pablo Escobar (Mar 22, 2007)

Does anyone else think it's a little silly that ROH's wrestlers typically earn title shots in Oct, Nov, Dec for the following year? This is bothered me a little bit in the past. Eddie was awarded the title shot at Final Battle, however shouldn't Elgin or Lethal be the #1 contender? Or they should have had the ringmasters challenge, or another match determine the challenger at Final Battle. Just seems odd there could be 3-4 months from when you earn the title shot, until you actually face the champ.


----------



## seancarleton77 (Jul 4, 2006)

^You can't apply logic to pro wrestling, at least that's what I hear in the TNA section.^


----------



## spawnsyxx9 (May 4, 2009)

Another 10 bell salute for our fallen brother Bison Smith. RIP my friend. I spoke with Bison on a few occasions when he was here in California and even though it was years ago I still appreciate the time he spent with me while at a training camp. 

Cornette is opening the show with some words. I'll try to see if I can get a description.

Mike Bennett vs. TJP opens the show. Bennett wins via rollup while holding the ropes.

The Bravado Brothers vs. ANX. The Young Bucks attack ANX pre match. Titus unable to go. King vs. The Bravados. Titus makes the comeback and ANX win with the doomsday blockbuster.

Adam Cole vs. Jay Lethal in a Proving Ground match.Lethal wins with the handstand springboard ace crusher in about 13 mins. Real fun match.

The Young Bucks vs. Caprice Coleman & Cedric Alexander. Bucks win with the double team spike piledriver on Coleman. 

SAMPSON vs. Andy Ridge. Ridge gets the win with a rollup out of a Sampson powerbomb attempt.


----------



## seabs (Jun 16, 2007)

*Jesus christ even Ride is picking up a win on this show. Sad to see that Cole loses yet again. I'd bet that he hasn't won any singles matches yet in ROH, not all that many tags either. His win/loss record must be pretty appalling. Presuming that Bucks/ANX will be another lock for Final Battle now after this weekend (Y)*


----------



## spawnsyxx9 (May 4, 2009)

Full results thanks to http://PWPonderings.com

Another 10 bell salute for our fallen brother Bison Smith. RIP my friend. I spoke with Bison on a few occasions when he was here in California and even though it was years ago I still appreciate the time he spent with me while at a training camp. 

Cornette is opening the show with some words. I'll try to see if I can get a description.

Mike Bennett vs. TJP opens the show. Bennett wins via rollup while holding the ropes.

The Bravado Brothers vs. ANX. The Young Bucks attack ANX pre match. Titus unable to go. King vs. The Bravados. Titus makes the comeback and ANX win with the doomsday blockbuster.

Adam Cole vs. Jay Lethal in a Proving Ground match.Lethal wins with the handstand springboard ace crusher in about 13 mins. Real fun match.

The Young Bucks vs. Caprice Coleman & Cedric Alexander. Bucks win with the double team spike piledriver on Coleman. 

SAMPSON vs. Andy Ridge. Ridge gets the win with a rollup out of a Sampson powerbomb attempt.

Special 2 Hour Time Limit The Briscoes, Michael Elgin, & Roderick Strong vs. WGTT, Eddie Edwards, & El Generico in an 8 man elimination match.
30 mins elapsed. No eliminations.
*FULL DETAILS OF ELIMINATIONS AT*: http://wp.me/p1rVA2-36K
Eddie wins in around 80 mins via submission with a dragon sleeper. Looks like we can assume he's wanting to get the attention of Davey that he has perfected the Dragon Sleeper. 1:20:33 official time.


----------



## Corey (Aug 11, 2006)

Who's SAMPSON?


----------



## seancarleton77 (Jul 4, 2006)

Jack Evans 187 said:


> Who's SAMPSON?


Israelite, man of the sun, he got his power from his hair.

*SPOILER ALERT* Watching an 80 minute WGTT match, now the Southern ROH fans know how mister Orange felt while he was bleeding out on the floor for 80 minutes.


----------



## Beatles123 (Jan 26, 2010)

What wrestling fed is SAMPSON fron?


----------



## Bubz (Jul 19, 2007)

Who the sweet jesus actualy wants to watch that main event tag?


----------



## jawbreaker (May 16, 2009)

What did they get over in those 80 minutes? That Edwards has a new finisher?


----------



## smitlick (Jun 9, 2006)

Edwards used the Dragon Sleeper on TV in the match with the HOT.


----------



## FITZ (May 8, 2007)

The PW Ponderings says that people were leaving during the main event but the people that stayed seemed to enjoy the match.


----------



## SHIRLEY (Jun 9, 2009)

Pablo Escobar said:


> Does anyone else think it's a little silly that ROH's wrestlers typically earn title shots in Oct, Nov, Dec for the following year? This is bothered me a little bit in the past. Eddie was awarded the title shot at Final Battle, however shouldn't Elgin or Lethal be the #1 contender? Or they should have had the ringmasters challenge, or another match determine the challenger at Final Battle. Just seems odd there could be 3-4 months from when you earn the title shot, until you actually face the champ.


No. Your making the mistake of thinking that there can only be one mandatory contender at any given time. Edwards is the #1 Contender, therefore he gets the shot on the biggest stage. The other qualified challengers have to wait their turn.

This is pretty common in a number of combat sports.


----------



## Obfuscation (Apr 15, 2006)

80 FUCKIN MINUTES?

This promotion is outrageous. 

Lethal vs Cole could be fun. About all I have to say here.


----------



## Bubz (Jul 19, 2007)

TaylorFitz said:


> The PW Ponderings says that *people were leaving during the main event* but the people that stayed seemed to enjoy the match.


Not surprising at all, although I would never leave during a show, if there was ever a time I would it would be this. Watching the same guys wrestling for 2 hours? Good god. if it was Danielson/Hero/Punk/Aries/Daniels/Nigel or people of that nature then maybe, but WGTT and Edwards, no way. I need to stop judging this before I've seen it lol, but trying to bring myself to watch it will be hard.


----------



## Obfuscation (Apr 15, 2006)

It's not bad to judge a match like this. Even with Generico in it for me it STILL sounds hard to get through. Edwards, Briscoes, WGGT, & Elgin in it doesn't help create any interest for me anyways.


----------



## KingCrash (Jul 6, 2007)

Well I guess the good thing is they didn't try to reach the time limit, I am morbidly curious how this came off but I know I won't be watching this match in one sitting. Rest of the show looks meh besides Cole/Lethal. And is this the longest match in ROH history?


----------



## Beatles123 (Jan 26, 2010)

I like the fact that they have a solid slew of people gunning for the title. It helps it look important and creates a solid latter to work with in establishing main eventers.

Edwards, Lethal, Steen, Elgin, Strong.

Roh is crafting a main event scene with depth and building up each one nicely! Good work by them.


----------



## Obfuscation (Apr 15, 2006)

KingCrash said:


> Well I guess the good thing is they didn't try to reach the time limit, I am morbidly curious how this came off but I know I won't be watching this match in one sitting. Rest of the show looks meh besides Cole/Lethal. And is this the longest match in ROH history?


I think it is. Only one that comes to mind was the 75 minute Danielson vs Aries match. This going 80 obviously tops it.


----------



## seancarleton77 (Jul 4, 2006)

I guarantee you good, bad or great ROH will proclaim their 80 minute Survivor Series style elimination match a classic, anyone care to disagree? I bet Elgin was the second best part of the match next to Generico. It is cool that Eddie is using The Beast's hold now.


----------



## Corey (Aug 11, 2006)

I'm gonna laugh when everyone watches the match and it turns out to be this amazing MOTYC...

... but I can't see that happening. 

You gotta think it's at least 20-30 minutes of Briscoes/WGTT, and we all know how great they've been in the ring together. :no:

We'll see what happens.


----------



## Obfuscation (Apr 15, 2006)

seancarleton77 said:


> I guarantee you good, bad or great ROH will proclaim their 80 minute Survivor Series style elimination match a classic, anyone care to disagree? I bet Elgin was the second best part of the match next to Generico. It is cool that Eddie is using The Beast's hold now.


Of course they will. They claimed the NOAH tag with Misawa was a classic. Among many others that weren't deserving of such a title.


----------



## SHIRLEY (Jun 9, 2009)

Wrestling Observer Front Page said:


> 80 minute match on show in Greensboro


.


----------



## seabs (Jun 16, 2007)

*No point in garnering hype for a DVD release when the match itself will likely be dull. Sure they should do a better number for the show than they would have if it was just a standard 8 man but unless the match is a classic then I can't really see it accumulating that many new fans. It probably would have been just as dull going 30 minutes as it was going 80 minutes so I guess why not. Not exactly like they sacrificed a great match for it and it's only a DVD show.

Match achieved nothing though. Briscoes and WGTT cancelled each other out, Elgin didn't really get a big pin, Strong lost yet again and Edwards is no different for being the sole survivor. *


----------



## Fighter Daron (Jul 14, 2011)

Well, at least Strong was the last eliminated. But this will be a great candidate for worst match of the year.


----------



## Beatles123 (Jan 26, 2010)

Show of hands, how many of you actually saw the match before critiquing it?

...Anyone?


----------



## KingCrash (Jul 6, 2007)

It's an 80 min match featuring WGTT for about 50 of it. Based on their recent work how do you think it's going to go?


----------



## Brigante (Sep 11, 2011)

Beatles123 said:


> Show of hands, how many of you actually saw the match before critiquing it?
> 
> ...Anyone?


People here are so annoyingly jaded when it comes to Ring of Honor.


----------



## benturpen (Nov 8, 2011)

I will say they had the crowd going legitimately wild the ENTIRE 80 mins. It was really bizarre in someways to me. It's almost as if they had announced it as a 2 min. time limit. You have minimal stars on the undercard, just reaction wise, and then it's like it completely turned to another gear for the main event, and this was a good crowd the whole show. There was a section standing the entire match. I saw 75% or so of the match itself. The first 30 mins. was stalling, obv., then they did two huge outside brawling sequences which had the crowd in a frenzy. I missed a bulk of the match from that point forward until they did the table spot. Finish was good and they still had the crowd where they had them at every other moment of the match.


----------



## EffectRaven (Dec 9, 2007)

Brigante said:


> People here are so annoyingly jaded when it comes to Ring of Honor.


Exactly. Sooooo unnecessarily harsh on the product


----------



## Legend (Nov 3, 2006)

A classic.


----------



## Matt_Yoda (Jun 19, 2011)

I've said it about WSU and I'll say it again here, I don't think there is one match that can hold my interest for 60+ minutes. If this match manages to do that, well then great.


----------



## jawbreaker (May 16, 2009)

I've seen a few 60 minute (and one 60+) matches that I liked. They all had phenomenal storytellers (Samoa Joe, Bryan Danielson, etc.) who could hold my attention for that long. This match doesn't.


----------



## Obfuscation (Apr 15, 2006)

I'm more than certain I won't watch. Does that mean I can't say it _sounds_ dull judging by the length and my lack of interest via the wrestlers involved? Nope. I can say that. Because it is how I feel.


----------



## peachchaos (Nov 16, 2010)

This reminds me of the 24 hour song the Flaming Lips just did. Its like: Okay, you did it. But do you really expect anyone to listen to the whole damned thing?


----------



## EffectRaven (Dec 9, 2007)

If you don't have any interest in the match then that's fine but I'm certain there are plenty of fans that ARE interested in it, just checkout ROH's twitter and facebook pages. The length and competitors may be a turnoff for some but there's no point in jumping the gun and tearing down a match you haven't seen that for all we know may be good. If it doesn't interest you leave it at that. It's like music, I don't like country but instead of running around trash talking the genre I just don't listen to it


----------



## Obfuscation (Apr 15, 2006)

ROH fans. Not my kind of people. Even during their prime. Yikes.


----------



## KingCrash (Jul 6, 2007)

EffectRaven said:


> If you don't have any interest in the match then that's fine but I'm certain there are plenty of fans that ARE interested in it, just checkout ROH's twitter and facebook pages. The length and competitors may be a turnoff for some but there's no point in jumping the gun and tearing down a match you haven't seen that for all we know may be good. If it doesn't interest you leave it at that. It's like music, I don't like country but instead of running around trash talking the genre I just don't listen to it


But isn't the whole point of the thread to talk about the shows. I mean if you're going to complain about people bashing the 80 min. match then you have to complain about the people who think the Sat. show sounds good because they haven't seen it either. Also it could lead to why some 60+ min. matches work and others don't (emotional investment in feuds, something tangible to fight for, workers who mesh well together, hot crowd, etc.)

And you kind of can judge matches based on the recent performances of guys. Hence why when you see Homicide's name on a card you know that match is going to suck or when you see Steen you're going to get something great.


----------



## smitlick (Jun 9, 2006)

^^^ Not true. If Homicides name is right next to Hernandez its not necessarily going to suck.


----------



## Obfuscation (Apr 15, 2006)

Homicide before leaving ROH = (Y)


----------



## SuperDuperSonic (Apr 7, 2008)

I'll never understand why Gabe makes Homicide vs. Moxley the marquee match on that DGUSA DVD.


----------



## smitlick (Jun 9, 2006)

Gabe had a hard on for Moxley... I believe he was even gonna bring him into ROH before he got the can.


----------



## Concrete (May 28, 2010)

Weird I think Moxley will do much better in the WWE than he did on the independents.


----------



## Neutronic (Oct 2, 2011)

I have yet to hear one bad review about the 8 man tag except from idiots that werent there.

The crowd was invested the entire match, it didnt slow down not one bit. Plenty of action and brawls. Anyone that wasnt there can shut their mouth

I sat a few rows back in GA. I saw maybe a total of 10 people leave during it. Anyone that judges before watching it, is retarded and I'm not afraid to say that.

The IWC in a nutshell


----------



## KingCrash (Jul 6, 2007)

Neutronic said:


> I have yet to hear one bad review about the 8 man tag except from idiots that werent there.
> 
> The crowd was invested the entire match, it didnt slow down not one bit. Plenty of action and brawls. Anyone that wasnt there can shut their mouth
> 
> ...


So just to clarify, are we retarded if we judge it at all, or if we just think we won't like it?


----------



## Neutronic (Oct 2, 2011)

You honestly think judging something before watching it is a smart thing to do?

Because if you do, refer to my previous post


----------



## KingCrash (Jul 6, 2007)

Neutronic said:


> You honestly think judging something before watching it is a smart thing to do?
> 
> Because if you do, refer to my previous post


So you've never judged a card that's happened before by looking forward to something or skipping something you think you wouldn't like? Hey, you didn't want Portia Perez on the Chikara Joshimania shows so you must be retarded for judging that 8-man tag she was in.


----------



## SuperDuperSonic (Apr 7, 2008)

Don't worry, he's just cranky because Sami Callihan has picked a different mark to receive oral fellatio from.


----------



## Obfuscation (Apr 15, 2006)

SuperDuperSonic said:


> Don't worry, he's just cranky because Sami Callihan has picked a different mark to receive oral fellatio from.


Me?

Anyways, that guy is clearly getting bent out of shape for nothing. Since when has speculation not been around? We can't speak our mind on a match that sounds dull or uninteresting to us? Oh no. How could we do such a thing. Man. We're all retards. What a revelation.


----------



## Neutronic (Oct 2, 2011)

KingCrash said:


> So you've never judged a card that's happened before by looking forward to something or skipping something you think you wouldn't like? Hey, you didn't want Portia Perez on the Chikara Joshimania shows so you must be retarded for judging that 8-man tag she was in.


When did I say the match would be terrible or that Portia is a bad wrestler?

Please show me


----------



## Neutronic (Oct 2, 2011)

SuperDuperSonic said:


> Don't worry, he's just cranky because Sami Callihan has picked a different mark to receive oral fellatio from.


Ba ba ba Black Sheep still talking shit I see.

Don't worry your Cena shirt will keep you warm


----------



## Neutronic (Oct 2, 2011)

Hailsabin said:


> Me?
> 
> Anyways, that guy is clearly getting bent out of shape for nothing. Since when has speculation not been around? We can't speak our mind on a match that sounds dull or uninteresting to us? Oh no. How could we do such a thing. Man. We're all retards. What a revelation.


When someone says

"This is a contender for worst match of the year"

Before watching a match. I have the right to call them a retard.

That goes from being an opinion to saying it as if it were a fact.


----------



## EffectRaven (Dec 9, 2007)

Slightly off-topic, but I'm curious how attendances were for these shows considering the complete lack of title matches AND the world champion himself


----------



## Neutronic (Oct 2, 2011)

NC looked pretty full to me

I didnt attend SC so cant speak for it


----------



## KingCrash (Jul 6, 2007)

> Slightly off-topic, but I'm curious how attendances were for these shows considering the complete lack of title matches AND the world champion himself


Apparently at the SC show they were moving some people from GA to the second or third row. 




Neutronic said:


> When did I say the match would be terrible or that Portia is a bad wrestler?
> 
> Please show me


In the Chikara thread you said you had problems with Portia and that she was a female version of Davey Richards. And you're not a fan of Davey.


----------



## Neutronic (Oct 2, 2011)

So remind me where I said

It'd be a terrible match or Portia is a bad wrestler?

I never said Portia is bad, I just feel she's overrated. Does that mean I instantly hate all her matches? No?

I'm not a sheep like SuperDuperSonic


----------



## KingCrash (Jul 6, 2007)

But you're still judging her and matches she may be in based on what you've seen in the past. And that's the point I'm trying to make is unless you are neutral on everything you'll make judgements on what to watch or not based on what you like so it's pretty hypocritical to call out everyone that doesn't want to watch the match based on length or who's in it when you do the same thing.

And Southern Defiance looks like a decent B-show.


----------



## Neutronic (Oct 2, 2011)

There is a ton of difference between saying

"I'm not a fan of X wrestler because of Y"
or
"I don't look forward to this match but I'll give it a chance"

and

"This match has X wrestler ITS GONNA SUCK BIG TIME"


----------



## jawbreaker (May 16, 2009)

oh come on.

I have never in my life watched and enjoyed a Greg Excellent match, or an Ian Rotten match from the last ten years or so. if someone tomorrow announced that there would be a Greg Excellent vs. Ian Rotten match, would I not be justified in saying that it will probably suck?

better yet, if there was a Jenna Morasca vs. Sharmell rematch, would you get mad at someone who said it would probably be a candidate for worst match of the year before they watched it?


----------



## Neutronic (Oct 2, 2011)

Again like I said

saying

I probably won't enjoy this

and

OMG THIS WILL BE SO BAD. WORST MATCH EVER -5 STARS

is completely different


----------



## Obfuscation (Apr 15, 2006)

You're grasping at straws right now. Still in the general area. You're making an assumption before you see it. How harshly you describe it has no difference.


----------



## Fighter Daron (Jul 14, 2011)

OK, let's take a look at the eight man involved: 

- The Briscoes: They are Ok tome, their actual rivalry doesn't interest me, but they are not bad. 
- Michael Elgin: He looks strong against smaller guys, only two of their opponents are.
- Roderick Strong: He's great, everything he does, entertain me.
- WGGT: They are awful as shit. I struggle to see a 20 minute match with them.
- Eddie Edwards: A piece of shit, the most indyriffic guy ever. He won't help anything.
- El Generico: Great, he and strong are the only hope of this match.

Well, now, look at the eliminations: 

- Shelton Benjamin: Wow, the weakest piece of the match gtfo the first. Good booking decision, but we have to suffer him for 47 MINUTES.
- Mark Briscoe: This won't be that good, but not relevant anyway.
- Charlie Haas: Finally, the WGGT are eliminated, that's good.
- Jay Briscoe: The two teams are eliminated, I guess we have the better part now
- El Generico: Ok, at least it was Elgin who caught the pinfall.
- Elgin: I'd assume he played around with Edwards for awhile before getting eliminated.
- Strong: And well, Edwards won, thumbs up.

Looking those things this could be good, but, 80 MINUTES?, wtf¿?, I will give a watch when I am completely ready.


----------



## Obfuscation (Apr 15, 2006)

At least I'm not the only one who thought Generico & Strong were the only high points of the match.

I've found myself liking Edwards more outside of ROH. In ROH I'm not very invested.


----------



## Chismo (Nov 7, 2009)

I will cut off the first 47 minutes of that 8-man Elimination tag, and watch the rest because the last 30 minutes is the HOT vs Generico & Edwards, which sounds acceptable.


----------



## jawbreaker (May 16, 2009)

Neutronic said:


> Again like I said
> 
> saying
> 
> ...


answer my question.

if there was a Jenna Morasca vs. Sharmell rematch, considering how poor their first match was, would I be justified in saying that it would likely be among the worst matches of the year?


----------



## Fighter Daron (Jul 14, 2011)

JoeRulz said:


> I will cut off the first 47 minutes of that 8-man Elimination tag, and watch the rest because the last 30 minutes is the HOT vs Generico & Edwards, which sounds acceptable.


That would be smarter, of course.


----------



## Neutronic (Oct 2, 2011)

jawbreaker said:


> answer my question.
> 
> if there was a Jenna Morasca vs. Sharmell rematch, considering how poor their first match was, would I be justified in saying that it would likely be among the worst matches of the year?


Did you not see me answer your question?

Refer to my previous post about the differences between judging a match before you see it

Now you answer my question.

Would I be justified calling Sara vs Aja Kong the worst match in wrestling history before having watched it?


----------



## Neutronic (Oct 2, 2011)

Hailsabin said:


> At least I'm not the only one who thought Generico & Strong were the only high points of the match.
> 
> I've found myself liking Edwards more outside of ROH. In ROH I'm not very invested.


I'd like to know how you know the high points of the match before having even watched it.


----------



## KingCrash (Jul 6, 2007)

Neutronic said:


> Did you not see me answer your question?
> 
> Refer to my previous post about the differences between judging a match before you see it
> 
> ...


If you absolutely hated every match they've ever been in then sure, it's your opinion. And that's the point you don't seem to be getting. If some think that WGTT and the Briscoes have had poor matches and interaction throughout the year, why wouldn't they think that an 80 min. match with them in half of it would be just as bad? Same goes with how people are looking forward to Lethal/Cole from the show based on what they've done in the past. Curious how that doesn't get you all riled up since it's basically the same thing as projecting what the main event would be like to them.


----------



## Neutronic (Oct 2, 2011)

When did someone say Lethal/Cole will kill DVD sales and be the worst match in history?


----------



## SuperDuperSonic (Apr 7, 2008)

I would be happy to wear Cena gear rather than beg to give Callihan fellatio. Callihan will never have the resume of MOTYCs and epic moments like Cena has helped produce (WM23, WM22, MITB 2011, the Batista feud, shitting on Undertaker and Kurt Angle, etc.)


----------



## Concrete (May 28, 2010)

Neutronic said:


> When did someone say Lethal/Cole will kill DVD sales and be the worst match in history?


Never? I believe the point was that if you can look forward to a match based on your opinion of whose in the match why can't you not look forward to a match based on whose in it. If someone can say "This match is going to be crazy awesome like if Jesus was going to come in riding a unicorn and start singing 'Don't Stop Believing'" can't they say "This match is going to suck more nuts than your mom".


----------



## SuperDuperSonic (Apr 7, 2008)

Hats off to the troll for getting several pages out of his thin argument.


----------



## Neutronic (Oct 2, 2011)

SuperDuperSonic said:


> I would be happy to wear Cena gear rather than beg to give Callihan fellatio. Callihan will never have the resume of MOTYCs and epic moments like Cena has helped produce (WM23, WM22, MITB 2011, the Batista feud, shitting on Undertaker and Kurt Angle, etc.)


Comparing an indy wrestler to the most overrated guy in wrestling history

You really are an idiot aren't you sheepy


----------



## Neutronic (Oct 2, 2011)

enlightenedone9 said:


> Never? I believe the point was that if you can look forward to a match based on your opinion of whose in the match why can't you not look forward to a match based on whose in it. If someone can say "This match is going to be crazy awesome like if Jesus was going to come in riding a unicorn and start singing 'Don't Stop Believing'" can't they say "This match is going to suck more nuts than your mom".


Except being negative for the sake is being negative is insanely different than being positive

What aren't you understanding?


----------



## Neutronic (Oct 2, 2011)

SuperDuperSonic said:


> Hats off to the troll for getting several pages out of his thin argument.


We can't all be fat nerds like you sheepy.

Your ass must be hurting from riding that bandwagon for so long


----------



## SuperDuperSonic (Apr 7, 2008)

I feel sorry for you, not being able to accept a grudging respect and compliment.

For someone who gets so angry at what a cunt I am, I love that you choose to be the exact same way.


----------



## seabs (Jun 16, 2007)

SuperDuperSonic said:


> Hats off to the troll for getting several pages out of his thin argument.





Neutronic said:


> Comparing an indy wrestler to the most overrated guy in wrestling history
> 
> You really are an idiot aren't you sheepy


*Can you two please just grow up and stop being so childish around each other. Don't really wanna ban either of you from this thread or others so cut it down from here on please. *


----------



## SuperDuperSonic (Apr 7, 2008)

I was paying him a compliment. Much like Kevin Nash, he got a lot out of producing as little effort as possible.


----------



## Fighter Daron (Jul 14, 2011)

Neutronic said:


> the most overrated guy in wrestling history


Seriously, gtfo.


----------



## Neutronic (Oct 2, 2011)

Seabs said:


> *Can you two please just grow up and stop being so childish around each other. Don't really wanna ban either of you from this thread or others so cut it down from here on please. *


I'm happy to let it go. SuperDuperSheepy is the one who loves to restart the argument

Hell he is still going in his post under yours, that alone should speak for itself


----------



## SuperDuperSonic (Apr 7, 2008)




----------



## Obfuscation (Apr 15, 2006)

Not to restart any arguments, but shouldn't that guy realize his point is off when he's the only one here who thinks it is logical? I seriously doubt the 6 or so of us who had said otherwise are all "retarded" as he put it.


----------



## SuperDuperSonic (Apr 7, 2008)

Sometimes the minority is actually correct though.


----------



## Obfuscation (Apr 15, 2006)

Sometimes. Not here apparently.


----------



## SuperDuperSonic (Apr 7, 2008)

I think you all (myself included) are being too hard on him. Let's try to be nice to him and pick him up to be on our level instead of kicking the retard while he's down.


----------



## Obfuscation (Apr 15, 2006)

I suppose that can work.


----------



## Neutronic (Oct 2, 2011)

SuperDuperSonic said:


> I think you all (myself included) are being too hard on him. Let's try to be nice to him and pick him up to be on our level instead of kicking the retard while he's down.


I look forward to Seabs banning you sheepy.

How do you plan to spend your last few moments here sheepy? Cuddling up to Cena? or with your buttbuddy?


----------



## SuperDuperSonic (Apr 7, 2008)

I'm trying to help you. I thank you for your posts. I stick up for you.

And you still find a reason to be upset.


----------



## Brigante (Sep 11, 2011)

Neutronic said:


> I have yet to hear one bad review about the 8 man tag except from idiots that werent there.


Funny how that works.


----------



## SuperDuperSonic (Apr 7, 2008)

It's hilarious.


----------



## Brigante (Sep 11, 2011)

We need a separate thread strictly for reviews of matches nobody has seen.

Preferably a stickied one.


----------



## SuperDuperSonic (Apr 7, 2008)

We need a review thread of someone getting a hard-on for curtain jerking Andy Ridge matches. I'll let you produce the stickiness.


----------



## FITZ (May 8, 2007)

Neutronic said:


> I look forward to Seabs banning you sheepy.
> 
> How do you plan to spend your last few moments here sheepy? Cuddling up to Cena? or with your buttbuddy?


I don't see how he has done anything worse than you. 

Both of you guys are acting immature. I haven't scrolled through all the posts but what I have seen is just mostly childish insults. 

For what it's worth this 80 minute match will make people intrigued to see how it turned out. I'm curious if it's awesome or terrible myself. I'll probably wait for more than the live reviews before I decide to buy the DVD but I am curious. Hey, Ian Rotten got me to buy one of his DVDs by having a 93 minute Hero/Punk match (which is awesome by the way) so I don't see why ROH can't do the same.


----------



## Obfuscation (Apr 15, 2006)

It's all about opinion. If someone is interested in this going 80 minutes then cool. They can go and check it out. Does it sound appealing to me? Not really. That's my thought on it. Doesn't mean the match really was THE WORST THING EVER. Heck, I've only said the match sounds "dull". Bad hasn't come out my mouth yet.


----------



## Neutronic (Oct 2, 2011)

SuperDuperSonic said:


> We need a review thread of someone getting a hard-on for curtain jerking Andy Ridge matches. I'll let you produce the stickiness.


More like we need a thread for fat nerds to bitch and moan about everything, I know someone who'd fit right in


----------



## Concrete (May 28, 2010)

For 120 minutes I would say that it is the craziest thing I have heard as of late and I won't bother but at at 80 minutes I might be able to manage. I think Neutronic comes off kinda like a giant douche but he also makes me feel like I should watch this damn match. Then no one can complain. Unless the match sucks HARD in which case I will complain a lot for the 1 hr. 20 min. I will never get back.


----------



## Arya Dark (Sep 8, 2006)

*SuperDuperSonic and Neutronic stop it. If you don't I'll put an end to it... and I aint even bleedin'. *


----------



## SuperDuperSonic (Apr 7, 2008)

You really do leave the easy jokes open with that bleedin' line.


----------



## Bubz (Jul 19, 2007)

Wow, this thread was doomed from the minute a 2 hour time limit match was announced.


----------



## Emperor DC (Apr 3, 2006)

Thank god that idiot above me was banned.

An absolute moron as of late and no loss to this place.


----------



## Chismo (Nov 7, 2009)

DeeCee said:


> Thank god that idiot above me was banned.
> 
> An absolute moron as of late and no loss to this place.


SuperDuperSonic?


----------



## Emperor DC (Apr 3, 2006)

JoeRulz said:


> SuperDuperSonic?


Not quite super, but yes, that's the one.


----------



## Corey (Aug 11, 2006)

That was quite possibly the dumbest argument I've ever seen...

But anyways, seems this 80 minute match is gettin some buzz online. Plus, you get to see it(or most of it) on the tv show.

http://www.411mania.com/wrestling/n...f-Last-Weekends-80-Minute-Tag-Match-on-TV.htm


----------



## Beatles123 (Jan 26, 2010)

Holy mother of...stuff! I'm sorry guys, I guess my "Show of hands" post really started the argument on the other pages...sorry about that. I didn't mean to attract any trolling.

Anyway, I think the match, if nothing else, is interesting because it's never been done before. I think the right thing to do is just go into it with an open mind and try to enjoy it the best you can, then review it after. 

Besides, the match seems to be getting ROH some positive buzz, so in that aspect the match did well, right? 

I'll be interested to give it a go.


----------



## jawbreaker (May 16, 2009)

it's absolutely been done before, and by much better wrestlers.

Hero and Punk went what, 93 minutes in IWA-MS? How can they say that they set a new record if the one they call the "previous record" was never that?


----------



## Obfuscation (Apr 15, 2006)

Maybe only meant for ROH? If not then they need to double check their facts asap.


----------



## Beatles123 (Jan 26, 2010)

If you look it the comments of that article you will see some discussion about that. I don't think IWA-MS counts to the record.


----------



## jawbreaker (May 16, 2009)

okay, I misread it, they said: "the longest match in modern major league pro wrestling history" and then refer to Aries/Danielson as "the previous ROH record".

okay, fine, ROH considers themselves "major league" now. still, their fanbase should generally be aware of the Hero/Punk match, and to semanticize it so that they can claim _a_ record rings hollow to me. if this was the plan all along, they should have just gone another fifteen minutes, so they could say they had the longest non-ironman match in modern pro wrestling history, which I think might be true.


----------



## Obfuscation (Apr 15, 2006)

Seems like this match was a lame attempt to say "hey, we have long matches, check us out." I really wish they would move past that mentality ASAP.


----------



## Beatles123 (Jan 26, 2010)

Man, you guys come across as picky. Does it really matter? It's good for ROH's growth.
The match might suck ass, but if people are loving it and ROH wants to be proud of it, can't they?


----------



## Obfuscation (Apr 15, 2006)

Because the company was a ton better when they weren't focused on both of those aspects from about 2005 - 2008. (my personal favorite time periods)


----------



## Brigante (Sep 11, 2011)

How dare ROH not recognize IWA-MS as a major league promotion?

This company pisses me off more and more everyday.


----------



## Beatles123 (Jan 26, 2010)

Hailsabin said:


> Because the company was a ton better when they weren't focused on both of those aspects from about 2005 - 2008. (my personal favorite time periods)


Well, that's purely subjective. ROH, in my opinion, is still good. Promotions have to change as they grow bigger, but it doesn't mean the product is bad. I find it VERY entertaining myself.


----------



## Obfuscation (Apr 15, 2006)

We'll agree to disagree then. Promotion isn't much for me now. I keep up for the few guys I have an interest in. That's about it.


----------



## Beatles123 (Jan 26, 2010)

Meh, I would say just be happy that we have a growing promotion that actually wants to do wrestling the right way. That's always good. Companies have dry spells for some people, but I'm sure you'll come to like them again eventually. It's likely due to guys like Bryan and Ares being gone, I'd imagine. For me it's fun watching the new guys establish themselves. I think Elgin has tons of potential, wrestling wise.


----------



## jawbreaker (May 16, 2009)

Brigante said:


> How dare ROH not recognize IWA-MS as a major league promotion?
> 
> This company pisses me off more and more everyday.


I roll my eyes when WWE doesn't acknowledge anything that happens in another company, why shouldn't I do the same when ROH does it?

especially when it comes across as ROH forgetting their roots, as this does. there was a time when IWA-MS was as big, if not bigger than ROH. obviously they're not now, but god damn, calling yourself a "major league promotion" is pretty self-aggrandizing.

the thing about ROH during their peak eras was that they never had to be self-aggrandizing. they never had Leonard or Prazak on commentary insisting that the match we were watching was great, because we could see that for ourselves. they never said "this match is great because we said so."

look at the past results page. here's how a few matches from 2005 were listed:

8. ROH World Title Match: Bryan Danielson defeated Roderick Strong via submission to retain

9. Kenta Kobashi beat Samoa Joe

7. ROH World Title/Elimination Match: James Gibson beat CM Punk, Christopher Daniels, & ROH Pure Champion Samoa Joe to become the 6th World Champion; Samoa Joe eliminated Christopher Daniels, CM Punk eliminated Joe, Gibson eliminated Punk to win

9. ROH World Title Match: CM Punk defeated Austin Aries to become the 5th World Champion

you get the point.

now here's 2011:

7. Ladder War III: The All Night Express (Rhett Titus & Kenny King) beat Jay & Mark Briscoe to earn a ROH World Tag Title match at “Glory by Honor X”; This match must be seen as all four men absolutely brutalized each other with ladders, chairs, and tables. Much blood was spilt, and its a shock that none of the four suffered any serious injury. After the war, Kenny King dipped his fingers in Jay’s blood and signed “ANX” on the contract in blood.

8. Ring of Honor World Title: Davey Richards beat Eddie Edwards in an absolutely hard hitting classic match to become the 16th World Champion; Following the match, Richards broke down in tears and addressed the fans in a heartfelt emotional speech.

8. Six Man Tag Team Challenge Match: Davey Richards & WGTT (Shelton Benjamin & Charlie Haas) defeated ROH World Champion Roderick Strong & ROH World Tag Team Champions The Kings of Wrestling (Chris Hero & Claudio Castagnoli) when Davey submitted Strong after the two tag teams brawled to the back. This was a tremendous match that is worth going out of your way to see.

7. Davey Richards defeated Chris Hero in a must see classic that went nearly 30 minutes

It's not the main problem, not by a long shot, but when you couple it with a product I find to be at best inconsistent, the constant self-promotion feels disingenuous and rubs me the wrong way.


----------



## Obfuscation (Apr 15, 2006)

Losing the main talent was a blow, but I found the promotion to get incredibly dull once 2009 began. Can't explain it. All the fun was gone.


----------



## jawbreaker (May 16, 2009)

Beatles123 said:


> Meh, I would say just be happy that we have a growing promotion that *actually wants to do wrestling the right way*. That's always good. Companies have dry spells for some people, but I'm sure you'll come to like them again eventually. It's likely due to guys like Bryan and Ares being gone,I'd imagine. For me it's fun watching the new guys establish themselves. I think Elgin has tons of potential, wrestling wise.


The thing is, that's not the impression I get from ROH any more.


----------



## Obfuscation (Apr 15, 2006)

Totally. Long matches doesn't mean it is the right way. ROH is pretentious now. Jawbreaker's post above proves that.


----------



## Beatles123 (Jan 26, 2010)

*Shrugs* those all seem like trivial-ass reasons to me, if i'm being completely honest.

So they're trying to sell matches a bit more aggressively....that...really isn't a big deal. The point is that the company is trying to do what WWE and TNA aren't. Build a good in-ring product. Promotions promote themselves as they grow bigger. Honestly, I can't see why you WOULDN'T like ROH being proud of themselves. 

Again, who here has actually WATCHED the match yet? Maybe, just maybe, it's not a train wreck as badly as you would think.

Then again, if you want to critique the product on such specific details, perhaps this is why you don't enjoy it as much? I don't mean to bash, it's just a thought.


----------



## Fighter Daron (Jul 14, 2011)

Hailsabin said:


> Losing the main talent was a blow, but I found the promotion to get incredibly dull once 2009 began. Can't explain it. All the fun was gone.


McGuinness Vs Danielson?, Aries Vs Jacobs?, Wolves vs Black & Danielson?, Richards Vs Danielson?, Wolves Vs Steenerico?, Richards Vs Steen?, Danielson Vs Aries?, Wolves Vs Bucks?, Danielson Vs Black?, Richards Vs KENTA?, Jerry Lynn Vs Bryan Danielson Vs Austin Aries Vs Tyler Black?, KENTA Vs McGuinnes?, Richards Vs Castagnoli?

Dull?, ok. 2009 was a great year to ROH, way much better than 2011.


----------



## Obfuscation (Apr 15, 2006)

Beatles123 said:


> *Shrugs* those all seem like trivial-ass reasons to me, if i'm being completely honest.
> 
> So they're trying to sell matches a bit more aggressively....that...really isn't a big deal. The point is that the company is trying to do what WWE and TNA aren't. Build a good in-ring product. Promotions promote themselves as they grow bigger. Honestly, I can't see why you WOULDN'T like ROH being proud of themselves.
> 
> ...


It's not trivial at all. If anything I gave a reason as to why my interest is so null and void.



Fighter Daron said:


> McGuinness Vs Danielson?, Aries Vs Jacobs?, Wolves vs Black & Danielson?, Richards Vs Danielson?, Wolves Vs Steenerico?, Richards Vs Steen?, Danielson Vs Aries?, Wolves Vs Bucks?, Danielson Vs Black?, Richards Vs KENTA?, Jerry Lynn Vs Bryan Danielson Vs Austin Aries Vs Tyler Black?, KENTA Vs McGuinnes?, Richards Vs Castagnoli?
> 
> Dull?, ok. 2009 was a great year to ROH, way much better than 2011.


Duh it is better than this year. Doesn't mean I got into everything they did. It's called an opinion dude. Live with it. That 45 minute tag match bored the hell out of me. As did that awful Davey vs Danielson match. Yikes. Most of Danielson's farewell matches were obviously good though.


----------



## TelkEvolon (Jan 4, 2007)

Beatles123 said:


> *Shrugs* those all seem like trivial-ass reasons to me, if i'm being completely honest.


We have a winner!

Jawbreaker be playa' hatin' and bitter than lemon.


----------



## Bubz (Jul 19, 2007)

I loved that Danielson/Davey match, easily one of Davey's best I think. ROH really has had a poor year this year in terms of match quality compared to pretty much every year since 2005 from what I can remember. Theres been maybe 3 or 4 matches I would have near to over 4* this year.


----------



## TelkEvolon (Jan 4, 2007)

Bubz said:


> I loved that Danielson/Davey match, easily one of Davey's best I think.


Yep, this was the match Davey would wrestle for the next like 2 years, Pretty much every 2010 match of Davey's was a copy of this one.

But being one of the first, it was awesome.


----------



## KingCrash (Jul 6, 2007)

Fighter Daron said:


> McGuinness Vs Danielson?, Aries Vs Jacobs?, Wolves vs Black & Danielson?, Richards Vs Danielson?, Wolves Vs Steenerico?, Richards Vs Steen?, Danielson Vs Aries?, Wolves Vs Bucks?, Danielson Vs Black?, Richards Vs KENTA?, Jerry Lynn Vs Bryan Danielson Vs Austin Aries Vs Tyler Black?, KENTA Vs McGuinnes?, Richards Vs Castagnoli?
> 
> Dull?, ok. 2009 was a great year to ROH, way much better than 2011.


I don't know if I'd call it great, for every good Lynn title match you still have Lynn in title matches vs. Cabana and Lynn, that time limit draw that started the world title on the wrong foot, the never ending Jacobs vs. former members of the AOTF battles, the never ending Embassy wars, TWINKIES, every show ending in -tion being boring as hell, the mismanaged Pick 6 and a Final Battle that if it wasn't for Bucks/Steenerico and Eddie Kingston would have been terrible. They did start to get on track near the end but Black's never ending chase for the title pretty much killed him until his match with Davey, and that only lasted until he signed with WWE.


----------



## FITZ (May 8, 2007)

I also feel myself losing interest with ROH. I have a hard time really explaining why that is but I'm at the point where if I'm not at the show I'm not going to see the show. The fact that most of the NYC shows are now iPPVs doesn't help either. Right now ROH has a TV show where they produce a little under an hour of new stuff every week. I watched half of the first episode and haven't watched any more of it since. I understand what they're trying to do but it's really not what I want to see anymore aside from the amazing Steen angle.


----------



## Beatles123 (Jan 26, 2010)

i think this is very much a rebuilding year for ROH. in a year or two with some new talent and the wrestlers established I think it won't be that long untill it hits another big stride. That's just me.


----------



## Fighter Daron (Jul 14, 2011)

First guy that didn't like the tag team classic match, but as you said, it's your opinion, no complaints.


----------



## Obfuscation (Apr 15, 2006)

Indeed.


----------



## Concrete (May 28, 2010)

Beatles123 said:


> i think this is very much a rebuilding year for ROH. in a year or two with some new talent and the wrestlers established I think it won't be that long untill it hits another big stride. That's just me.


I'm really hoping you are right. I haven't been as down on ROH as some have but it definitely isn't as good as it was. The product needed to change slightly though to appeal to the wider audience. Now ROH has good guys to look to in the future in FutureShock, Elgin, an Ciampa but I'm not sure if that will be enough.


----------



## TelkEvolon (Jan 4, 2007)

What is it with some people, they are acting like ROH can't get any more guys until 2020 or something.

They've got a bunch of new guys they are building up and then there will be more coming after them. People are talking like this new bunch are ROH's final people they can ever have. Like the cut off for new roster members is this year.


----------



## EffectRaven (Dec 9, 2007)

I guess in some ways it pays to be a newer ROH fan (I started following closely around the time the TV Title debuted)

While I wasn't around to witness classic matches and moments first hand, the product still feels fresh and awesome to me


----------



## Beatles123 (Jan 26, 2010)

in terms of exposure this is the best ROH has ever been. If they were really abandoning their roots that bad, the video wires, sales, DVDs and importance of live shows wouldn't be part of the product. 

This is the beginning of a long journey for ROH that will take time. They need to build the future and that isn't going to happen overnight. However, with the NOAH partnership coming in 2012, I can all but guarantee you that this is far from the best we will see from ROH in the coming years. 

To an extent, it's just like the NFL: When staple players of a team leave, for awile it will seem like the best days of that team are behind them. All it takes in reality though is a few years to start over and build upon the standard thy left, while also changing with the times.

ROH is the same way right now. They're just in the process of building the next batch of stars.


----------



## jeremya3690 (Dec 17, 2005)

I was at the Greensboro show and it was awesome. The whole card was great and the main event was amazing. 1 hour 20 minutes of action, it never got boring


----------



## jawbreaker (May 16, 2009)

Beatles123 said:


> *Shrugs* those all seem like trivial-ass reasons to me, if i'm being completely honest.
> 
> So they're trying to sell matches a bit more aggressively....that...really isn't a big deal. The point is that the company is trying to do what WWE and TNA aren't. Build a good in-ring product. Promotions promote themselves as they grow bigger. Honestly, I can't see why you WOULDN'T like ROH being proud of themselves.
> 
> ...


Did you miss the part where I said the self-aggrandizement was far from the biggest problem with the company?

I don't like ROH claiming their matches are special now because really, they're not. Joe/Punk II was probably the hardest ROH ever promoted a match, and that was all tied to Meltzer giving it five stars, and it didn't get half the ROH-published hype that this random eight-man tag that happened to go a long time is getting. It seems to me like this match was a publicity stunt, that they only put it on so they could say they had a really long match. That's a problem.

The biggest problem, though, is the inconsistent in-ring quality. I've rated exactly three ROH matches this year at ****, none higher. Unless something at Final Battle goes crazy (unlikely considering the top two matches), this will be the first year in the history of ROH that they haven't put on a single match I've rated ****3/4 or higher. Maybe the style's evolving away from my tastes. That's probably the case. That doesn't make a difference really, because if you think ROH hasn't abandoned their roots, let me remind you of one thing:

They've got tag champs who are *only in the company for their drawing power*.



Beatles123 said:


> in terms of exposure this is the best ROH has ever been. If they were really abandoning their roots that bad, the video wires, sales, DVDs and importance of live shows wouldn't be part of the product.
> 
> This is the beginning of a long journey for ROH that will take time. They need to build the future and that isn't going to happen overnight. However, with the NOAH partnership coming in 2012, I can all but guarantee you that this is far from the best we will see from ROH in the coming years.
> 
> ...


It's not about the roster. It's about the booking style and the wrestling style. I think a very entertaining wrestling product with lots of excellent matches could be booked with the current roster, and those available on the indies. They're just not doing it.

also, they went four months without a DVD show, and the videowires are sporadic at best since the start of the new TV show.



TelkEvolon said:


> We have a winner!
> 
> Jawbreaker be playa' hatin' and bitter than lemon.


Bitter? Probably, a bit. I didn't think what was once my favorite company (and historically, still is) would become something I actively dislike before I turned 20.


----------



## EffectRaven (Dec 9, 2007)

Well the 4 month span without a dvd show I assume was because of the company settling into new ownership and putting together a new schedule. Everything else you said though makes plenty of sense


----------



## Obfuscation (Apr 15, 2006)

I don't see why anyone should concern themselves with how one person views the company. If there are people who aren't into it anymore, well then that is their choice. Then if there are people who still dig it then I say more power to them.


----------



## SHIRLEY (Jun 9, 2009)

jawbreaker said:


> I don't like ROH claiming their matches are special now because really, they're not.


I think you need to take a step back and realise that you're getting angry over kayfabe articles and then challenging them with some irrelevant asterisk system, that you've made up.


----------



## jawbreaker (May 16, 2009)

1. match quality stopped being kayfabe a long time ago, and it's certainly not kayfabe for the ROH audience or the potential ROH audience.

2. it's not the articles themselves, it's the principle behind them that bothers me, namely that they're not allowing the product to speak for itself.


----------



## FITZ (May 8, 2007)

Shirley Crabtree III said:


> I think you need to take a step back and realise that you're getting angry over kayfabe articles and then challenging them with some irrelevant asterisk system, that you've made up.


The star system just says how much you like a match. By saying he hasn't been rating any of the matches high he's saying that he has been enjoying the matches significantly less than the other years. 

Final Battle better be good because I'm getting spoiled with my wrestling travels. I'm getting too used to just driving 15 minutes to the Arena for a show. Now I have to drive 3 hours each way from Upstate New York and I will be getting home at 5am on Christmas Eve. 6 months ago I wouldn't care but now I can at least recognize it will suck. I mean I slept on the floor of a shady hostile that someone I had met twice was staying at in the middle of a snow storm to see Final Battle 2009. After that miserable night my brother and I traveled via subway and proceeded to dig my car out of snow a foot of snow and drive 3 hours home. What I'm trying to say is I was really fucking into ROH. It sucks that I can say there is no way in hell I would even consider braving a snow storm for this year's Final Battle.


----------



## Obfuscation (Apr 15, 2006)

jawbreaker said:


> 1. match quality stopped being kayfabe a long time ago, and it's certainly not kayfabe for the ROH audience or the potential ROH audience.
> 
> 2. it's not the articles themselves, it's the principle behind them that bothers me, namely that they're not allowing the product to speak for itself.


I stand by my claim that ROH has gotten pretentious now. Apparently every main event is a classic now. There is putting your company over and then there is useless pandering such as that.



TaylorFitz said:


> The star system just says how much you like a match. By saying he hasn't been rating any of the matches high he's saying that he has been enjoying the matches significantly less than the other years.
> 
> Final Battle better be good because I'm getting spoiled with my wrestling travels. I'm getting too used to just driving 15 minutes to the Arena for a show. Now I have to drive 3 hours each way from Upstate New York and I will be getting home at 5am on Christmas Eve. 6 months ago I wouldn't care but now I can at least recognize it will suck. I mean I slept on the floor of a shady hostile that someone I had met twice was staying at in the middle of a snow storm to see Final Battle 2009. After that miserable night my brother and I traveled via subway and proceeded to dig my car out of snow a foot of snow and drive 3 hours home. What I'm trying to say is I was really fucking into ROH. It sucks that I can say there is no way in hell I would even consider braving a snow storm for this year's Final Battle.


I swear, you have the most epic stories while attending wrestling shows. I'm jealous.


----------



## SHIRLEY (Jun 9, 2009)

TaylorFitz said:


> The star system just says how much you like a match. By saying he hasn't been rating any of the matches high he's saying that he has been enjoying the matches significantly less than the other years.


That has zero bearing on the stories that are being told by kayfabe articles on a kayfabe website.


----------



## Last Chancery (Dec 6, 2011)

Maybe I'm a bit out of the picture here, but doesn't every "major" promotion -- or at least one with a TV deal -- sort of have to promote itself as something greater than it actually is? WWE puts itself over nonstop, either on WWE.com or the TV programs or the PPVs, as well as social media. TNA does it hard, too. I don't think ROH is necessarily wrong for tooting its own horn and calling every main event a "classic," because it took them nine years of solid work to land their broadcast TV deal, so now they have to do what they can to show they deserve it. Which, in many ways, they do. That doesn't mean the product they're putting out is particularly enjoyable, but when trying to capture the interest and attention of a more casual, perhaps jaded wrestling fan who only is used to WWE or TNA, it makes sense to put over one's own product as the best wrestling out there.

I'm not saying I enjoy what's going on right now, but I can see the company is in a bit of a lull period. Getting everything set and ready for the TV show took a lot of time and shows out of their schedule, the talent pool is a little thin with the Kings, Cabana and others departing (and with no really sustainable names to fill the void yet) and there most likely is a different structure Cornette and co. have to deal with now, which is going to take some time to adjust to. I can and will buy the criticisms about Wrestling's Greatest, as I find them the absolute worst part of ROH in 2011, but it seems a lot of people just are wearing their rose-colored glasses and are clamoring for the nostalgic days of old, when the promotion still was "underground" and the casual fan was kept away from the mix because they had no other way of viewing the shows than by paying $20 for a DVD. Like it or not, ROH is a TV-based product now, and along with that comes sweeping changes, many of which are unfortunate. For those of us who want to give it a chance to straighten itself out, maybe six months or until next year's Final Battle, let's keep watching. But for those of us who already are sick and tired of what's been happening, there's always the indys, PWG, Japan and countless other promotions offering a wrestling and/or entertainment-based product.


----------



## Obfuscation (Apr 15, 2006)

Maybe I'm used to the pandering by WWE. TNA's is bad too. I guess it's a personal annoyance more than anything. Especially since I can't say a Briscoes vs Shelton Benjamin & Charlie Haas match has any appeal to me whatsoever. Once again this all stems by my point of view. No one else's. I'm not trying to sway anyone's opinion to have to dislike ROH. I have no reason to do so.

I'll try and be optimistic for the company to gain my interest back. Don't know if it will happen. There is this vibe about the company where, more often than not, I struggle to maintain my attention to watch. I don't think it has anything to do with them being more known. I hope that I have no hipster mentality like that. But, seriously it's not the same for me. Which is why I seldom watch nowadays, but I try to keep up to see what catches my eye.


----------



## seabs (Jun 16, 2007)

Beatles123 said:


> i think this is very much a rebuilding year for ROH. in a year or two with some new talent and the wrestlers established I think it won't be that long untill it hits another big stride. That's just me.


*People have been using that excuse ever since the end of 2009. It's not valid anymore.*


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## KaijuFan (Aug 22, 2006)

TaylorFitz said:


> I mean I slept on the floor of a shady hostile that someone I had met twice was staying at in the middle of a snow storm to see Final Battle 2009. After that miserable night my brother and I traveled via subway and proceeded to dig my car out of snow a foot of snow and drive 3 hours home. What I'm trying to say is I was really fucking into ROH. It sucks that I can say there is no way in hell I would even consider braving a snow storm for this year's Final Battle.


Wasn't that the greatest date ever?


----------



## Concrete (May 28, 2010)

Question: What tag team would be a better alternative based on popularity and skill than WGTT?


----------



## Obfuscation (Apr 15, 2006)

The Midnight Express.


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## Concrete (May 28, 2010)

Hailsabin said:


> The Midnight Express.


What? haha. When was the last time they wrestled?


----------



## Fighter Daron (Jul 14, 2011)

enlightenedone9 said:


> Question: What tag team would be a better alternative based on popularity and skill than WGTT?


Me and my dog.


----------



## jawbreaker (May 16, 2009)

enlightenedone9 said:


> Question: What tag team would be a better alternative based on popularity and skill than WGTT?


first of all, this is ROH, popularity should not be a factor; popularity should be directly tied to skill.

second of all, literally any other team on the roster. pair up two random guys and they'd probably be better. bring in the RockNES Monsters, bring in the Phoenix Twins if they still wrestle, fuck it, bring back Tony Mamaluke and Sal Rinauro and it'd be better.


----------



## Concrete (May 28, 2010)

The thing is ROH is trying to grow out of its niche-ness. There are certainly more talented tag teams out there but there aren't a whole lot of popular ones. WGTT finds a middle ground.


----------



## smitlick (Jun 9, 2006)

ROH should bring back the House of Truth.


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## jawbreaker (May 16, 2009)

enlightenedone9 said:


> The thing is ROH is trying to grow out of its niche-ness. There are certainly more talented tag teams out there but there aren't a whole lot of popular ones. WGTT finds a middle ground.


Bullshit. They absolutely do not find a middle ground, because they are terrible. For them to find a middle ground between being popular and talented, they would have to have some talent.

ROH should be taking good teams and making them popular, not taking popular teams and claiming they're good.


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## FITZ (May 8, 2007)

Hailsabin said:


> I stand by my claim that ROH has gotten pretentious now. Apparently every main event is a classic now. There is putting your company over and then there is useless pandering such as that.
> 
> 
> 
> I swear, you have the most epic stories while attending wrestling shows. I'm jealous.


It's just general probability. Go to enough shows and something awesome is bound to happen. 



KaijuFan said:


> Wasn't that the greatest date ever?


Not at all. Me and Brady came to an agreement a few weeks after it happened to never speak of the night again with each other.


----------



## Concrete (May 28, 2010)

jawbreaker said:


> Bullshit. They absolutely do not find a middle ground, because they are terrible. For them to find a middle ground between being popular and talented, they would have to have some talent.
> 
> ROH should be taking good teams and making them popular, not taking popular teams and claiming they're good.


I'm not going to even argue with you since I believe they at least have some talent and you don't think they have any. It would just end up with nothing accomplished.


----------



## jawbreaker (May 16, 2009)

Do you at least agree that if you thought they were as awful as I do, then having them holding the tag belts would be a terrible decision in your eyes?


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## SHIRLEY (Jun 9, 2009)

jawbreaker said:


> ROH should be taking good teams and making them popular, not taking popular teams and claiming they're good.


I completely agree. Bringing in the Young Bucks, because of their international TV exposure, has turned out to be a complete waste of time.

I'm not a fan of ROH pandering to the lowest common denominator and the Bucks are one example of this kind of standard-lowering doing nothing for business - so much so that ROH have had to give their DVD and iPPV matches away, with other packages.


----------



## Concrete (May 28, 2010)

jawbreaker said:


> Do you at least agree that if you thought they were as awful as I do, then having them holding the tag belts would be a terrible decision in your eyes?


I don't think they should hold the titles either. I tend to make confusing statements and for that I apologize. I don't believe it was a horrible decision to bring in WGTT. I am not a fan of having them hold the titles. ROH should want their champions putting on the best matches on the shows so people start connecting titles with great matches in their heads. Have people watch the show for WGTT or someone like that and then show them someone like the Briscoes or FutureShock with the titles. Though I do think WGTT I think are good enough, in my eyes, to at least be apart of the show and have value to ROH.


----------



## Bubz (Jul 19, 2007)

jawbreaker said:


> Bullshit. They absolutely do not find a middle ground, because they are terrible. For them to find a middle ground between being popular and talented, they would have to have some talent.
> 
> *ROH should be taking good teams and making them popular, not taking popular teams and claiming they're good.*


This is true.


----------



## Last Chancery (Dec 6, 2011)

If everyone is so disappointed by ROH's decline in quality (which seems linked to the departures of guys like Danielson, Nigel, Aries and maybe even Black; and, this year, the Kings), why isn't there more an attempt to soak up the other products that are currently in stride, such as PWG? Great company putting on its best work right now, and every show is a hit guaranteed to deliver something special. It also panders 500 percent less than ROH. I suppose the whole "one show a month" thing doesn't bode too well for those who consume more wrestling than most, but for the jaded ROH fan, I think it'd be a good alternative. And I'm sure CHIKARA and several of the larger indys have impressive enough backlogs to accommodate everyone. It just seems like people are holding onto it for no reason other than how difficult it is to let it go. People want it to turn around, to be the "underground" ROH of old, but we might have to come to terms with the fact that those days are long gone and may never return.


----------



## Beatles123 (Jan 26, 2010)

The simple truth I guess is that people tend to like things the way they get used to seeing them. 

ROH is DIFFERENT now than it was before, not "BAD". Bad being a statement based on opinion.

For everyone that complains about ROH being pretentious, I had seen for the longest time that "They're too bush league" and "Need to be more professional."

There is an audience like Jawbreaker that feels the matches speak for themselves, and I get that, but that's really all the more reason why more people should see it. It needs to BE promoted because it IS good!

In my mind, ROH deserves to grow and thrive. I think there's only so far you can go being "Underground" before you have to change a bit.

As I have said, ROH hasn't deviated THAT FAR from it's belief. I started watching in 2009 and i'll tell you something, I've seen the older stuff and I enjoy the newer stuff too.

Someone said they had been rebuilding since 2009 and that's no longer an excuse--you have to understand that this TV deal is WAY different than HDNet. ROH is in a position now where they CAN reach new plains of popularity with new stars. They are molding new ones now better than they did in 2009 under the last days of Adam Pierce, in my opinion. Not to mention they're under totally new management compared to 2009.

People don't like change. Danielson and Black left and everyone instantly feared for the worst. While we might not have them anymore, we do still have a good product right now in my eyes. There were some that claimed SBG would be the doom of ROH, but I think it will be around...maybe not in the same style as it was before, but still an enjoyable federation. I have spoken to other fans that have only started following ROH hardcore since SBG came in and they love it, so they must be doing something right.

It's like asking yourself, "Which era of AC/DC do you prefer? Bon Scott or Brian Johnson?" There is no wrong answer. You can enjoy both *IF* you allow yourself to.


----------



## Fighter Daron (Jul 14, 2011)

ROH is different, but ROH had their fans for their wrestling, and because their wrestling is poor now, their fans are disappointed, is that weird?


----------



## Obfuscation (Apr 15, 2006)

Losing their original talents isn't really the clincher here. PWG's roster isn't filled with everyone from the first show, nor is Chikara's. People leave. We all know that. The company doesn't do it for us anymore. (speaking for others in the best way I guess I can) I don't know how many times we have to say that over and over before some realize there aren't petty reasons to all of a sudden disapprove of an indie promotion that we once really enjoyed.


----------



## jawbreaker (May 16, 2009)

Beatles123 said:


> The simple truth I guess is that people tend to like things the way they get used to seeing them.
> 
> ROH is DIFFERENT now than it was before, not "BAD". Bad being a statement based on opinion.
> 
> For everyone that complains about ROH being pretentious, I had seen for the longest time that "They're too bush league" and "Need to be more professional."


That wasn't talking about their promoting capabilities, though. People said they looked "bush league" because they had shows in tiny buildings with beat-up guardrails and poor lighting. I personally loved the "bush league" aspects, and I also loved how ROH conducted themselves professionally as a company, allowing the product to speak for itself rather than claiming it was something that it may not have been.



Beatles123 said:


> There is an audience like Jawbreaker that feels the matches speak for themselves, and I get that, but that's really all the more reason why more people should see it. It needs to BE promoted because it IS good!
> 
> In my mind, ROH deserves to grow and thrive. I think there's only so far you can go being "Underground" before you have to change a bit.


I'm not faulting ROH for pushing guys I don't think are good (Davey Richards, Eddie Edwards). They're clearly going for a different style from the style I prefer, and if they think that's what people who want to watch good wrestling want to see, then that's their choice. I don't like it, and I'll be vocal about that, but at the end of the day there's people like peachchaos who love that style, and that's fine, if that's the market ROH wants to cater to.

What I will fault ROH for is for pushing wrestlers that are not good because it will make them money. If the answer to the question "why should people watch ROH?" is "because it has the best wrestling product," then anything ROH does that they know is interfering with them putting out the best possible wrestling product is something they should not be doing. Having the tag belts on Haas and Benjamin is the prime example. If Haas and Benjamin were not ex-WWE names, they would never make it off the pre-show. They are only in the company because they attract new fans. They are not the best tag team wrestlers in the company, they are not even close, and having the tag team titles on them makes a mockery of the belts, and makes it impossible, in my opinion, for ROH to claim they have a superior wrestling product, where athletes are valued based on their in-ring talent.



Beatles123 said:


> As I have said, ROH hasn't deviated THAT FAR from it's belief. I started watching in 2009 and i'll tell you something, I've seen the older stuff and I enjoy the newer stuff too.
> 
> Someone said they had been rebuilding since 2009 and that's no longer an excuse--you have to understand that this TV deal is WAY different than HDNet. ROH is in a position now where they CAN reach new plains of popularity with new stars. They are molding new ones now better than they did in 2009 under the last days of Adam Pierce, in my opinion. Not to mention they're under totally new management compared to 2009.
> 
> People don't like change. Danielson and Black left and everyone instantly feared for the worst. While we might not have them anymore, we do still have a good product right now in my eyes. There were some that claimed SBG would be the doom of ROH, but I think it will be around...maybe not in the same style as it was before, but still an enjoyable federation. I have spoken to other fans that have only started following ROH hardcore since SBG came in and they love it, so they must be doing something right.


I think ROH has the potential to still be great. I think they're doing a decent job of getting the new guys over, though they're doing it at a much slower pace than Gabe did at his peak. They still struggle to make their heels credible, a problem since before Gabe left even, and probably Pearce's biggest problem. I think they've got a very talented roster, that will become even more talented assuming Steen returns full-time.

I've said many times that I'm not a fan of the main event style that guys like Richards seem to be trying to get over, but that's a stylistic opinion, and I certainly understand why other people like it. I think ROH could be a great promotion with Davey as champ. I think they could be a great promotion with Eddie Edwards as champ, and I think Eddie Edwards is really bad.

I don't, however, think ROH can be a great promotion if they put money ahead of product. In the long term, ROH will be best served by building a brand. ROH built itself to where it is now by being synonymous with "the promotion that takes wrestling seriously" and "the place with good wrestlers, even if they don't look like what you see on TV". They can promote themselves as the best wrestling company provided they actually have a commitment to being the best wrestling company and don't abandon that to make a quick buck. When they claim they're one thing, but my eyes and my brain tell me they're another, it feels disingenuous and makes me more inclined to question them.



Beatles123 said:


> It's like asking yourself, "Which era of AC/DC do you prefer? Bon Scott or Brian Johnson?" There is no wrong answer. You can enjoy both *IF* you allow yourself to.


AC/DC were always horrible.

A much better music analogy would be Hüsker Dü. _Zen Arcade_ and _New Day Rising_ are all-time classic albums, and _Flip Your Wig_ had a lot of cool stuff. Then they signed to a major label. _Candy Apple Grey_ had some good songs, but wasn't nearly on the level of their previous three. That was okay, though not ideal, basically because "Don't Want to Know If You Are Lonely" was a phenomenal song and it showed that they still had the talent they'd always had. And then eventually they came to _Warehouse: Songs and Stories_, which had a couple okay songs, but was a clear break with their previous stuff, and really just wasn't good, it came across as being made because they had to make it to get the money from the label.

I'm not saying that's what ROH is, but there's some parallels there, in my opinion.


----------



## Beatles123 (Jan 26, 2010)

While I can certainly see your concern, I don't think it's as big of a detriment to have WGTT as you would think. Since they came to ROH, I've spoken to fans who hadn't watched WWE in years and they tell me that it's so refreshing to see WGTT again, as they were, without WWE to hold them back.

While you could argue it proves your point, I would like to counter by saying that while these same people tell me they got interested in ROH from WGTT, they're also quite amazed by the other talent as well. For example. the first time one of the guys from a wrestling show I watched tuned into ROH, he didn't know who El Genericho was, OR Kevin Steen. Yet with each ep of the show he watches, he's been very hyped for Final battle. The very card you say disintrests you. They're coming in from the names they like and STAYING for ROH's own talent aswell.

They aren't going to keep the belts on WGTT forever, but the reasoning for giving them a long reign is working in ROH's favor because:

A: It brings new viewers in that will in turn latch onto ROH's OWN talent.

and B:

The longer the belts are put on them with the solid crop of teams they have in the division, it gets the Homebrewed talent over because then people can see, "Wow, this team just beat a classic tag team that I know, I can get behind them now!"

It's a passing of the torch to ROH's talent from the Veteran talent.

If you're a new viewer and thee champs had been the Briscoes from the start, how would the viewer know the tag team MEANS SOMETHING unless you knew yourself who they were? You wouldn't know if these are stars in the making even if they WERE tag champs, because you don't know the HISTORY of the company. Too you, they need to be able to show that they can hang with the talent you recognize, and while your opinion of WGTT might not be high, they are still considered by many non-ROH fans to be a very skilled team, so any team that can hold it's own against them is going to get over with the common viewer pretty quick. 

Now, do I think their reign has gone on a tad too long? Perhaps, but, when they lose the belts, it will be because ROH has built their own stars TO THE NEW VIEWER by then, and they will see it as having been earned.

You mentioned matches speaking for themselves...if the company wants to play with the big boys in terms of wrestling, What would it mean to a new viewer if "Random guy I don't know" beat "Random other guy I don't know"? The MATCH might be good, but how will the viewer know if a wrestler is good because he's good, or good because ROH's rostor isn't as good as WWE's or TNA's? By BEATING a classic team like WGTT, that tells the new audience (Keyfabe wise) That the next stars are here. The past is gone.

This MEANS, that after WGTT lose the belts, it will be in all likelihood a long wile before they get them back, because ROH will be building its champs as credible.

This kind of thing is not unlike when Terry Funk built up Dreamer. They'rev trying to use WGTT to help the young teams out.

Now, I reiterate, I agree it's gone on too long, but it isn't hard to see that they have a lot of teams they're building up as well. It gives them time to establish a lot of teams so that WGTT doesn't have to BE used as much once the belts get taken off. So in your case, not being a WGTT fan, the long wait will be worth it. I can see it now.

Now, you mention that it's taken long for heels to get over...again, it's a matter of proper build. What happens when WWE pushes a heel too fast? He becomes stale because there's not much he's done to get to where he is to make us hate him. In Elgin's case, however, it's much different. Truth told us from a year early tht he'd be a champion, and Elgin never took shortcuts. He BACKED UP his ability match by match, win by win untill his chance had come and he had won the SOTF trophy. Now, as much as fans don't want to admit it...He earned it..."THEY WERE WRONG."

In STEENS case....do i need to say how expertly crafted this angle is?

As for Bennett, you don't like him and I get that, but his push is due. The title has been in his sights for months and the time is now for him. Any sooner would have been way too forced. Beating El Genericho AND Lethal will prove he can hang with ROH's best. He's been saying he isn't here for the fans and doesn't need them...give him the belt and once again, you have a heel that merely backed up his words.

I dunno man, maybe you're just burnt out on it, but me? I like both eras. I dig what they're doing by building stars for a NEW audience as well as making the Veterans of ROH enjoyable like Genericho and The Briscoes. 

Like I said before, maybe you're just a stickler for the underground feel ROH had, but I think you'll find there's a lot you can enjoy out of this era as well if you just understand that it's a different roster now and they're trying to do the best they can to move on without Danielson and the rest to fall back on forever and build for the next chapter.

Thanks for the rep, by the way. I hope what I'm saying at least makes some sense. 

On the AC/DC thing though, we have to agree to disagree.


----------



## jawbreaker (May 16, 2009)

The thing is though, the roster isn't the problem. I think Cole and Ciampa are fantastic, I think Bennett's better than most give him credit for, I haven't seen much to like out of Elgin but I certainly don't hate him.

The Funk comparison doesn't really work because Funk could totally hold his own in the ring, whereas WGTT have been consistently dragging down the quality of everything they've been involved in. It would be fine if they were good, but they're not and it's blatantly clear that they're out of place.

All the stuff about new fans makes sense, and it's the style of booking that worked in the 80's, but the fans are smarter now. My main problem I guess stems from why I started watching ROH in the first place.

The first show I watched was Rising Above 2009. It was main evented by Danielson vs. McGuinness, and had an Aries vs. Jacobs I Quit match as well. Going in, I knew a few names, but the only guy I could recognize by sight was Nigel. And the show hooked me. I didn't know who Bryan Danielson was, but when The Final Countdown hit and everyone in the Frontier Fieldhouse went crazy, I wanted to know why. I wanted to know the reason everyone threw streamers for him. I wanted to know why the fans chanted "best in the world". When Prazak and Leonard mentioned their past matches, I wanted to go back and watch them all. It was new, it was different, it was exciting, and I wanted to take in as much of it as I could, because I loved what I was seeing and wanted to see more.

If the first ROH show I watched was Best in the World, for example, I would have been instantly hooked by the Steen angle. I'd want to go back in the archives and find the FB10 match, then I'd go back to the FB09 heel turn, and watch everything Steen did, because I'd want to understand why the fans wanted to see Steen, why he yelled "fuck Ring of Honor", why he wasn't allowed in the company.

What would not hook me, however, would be the meandering, aimless, 45 minute long four-way tag that ended with a spinebuster. If I'd bought the show to see that match, then I would feel cheated of my money. If I'd been drawn to the show because of Haas and Benjamin, because I'd heard ROH was the company with good wrestling, and if they were holding the tag belts, they had to still be good, then I'd wonder if the company was worth my time. I wouldn't want to see more WGTT matches, and I would think that ROH was just another TNA, that they pushed people who were recognizable over their own, superior wrestlers.

Your point that whoever beats them will be instantly established is valid, but I'd argue that it doesn't really matter who the champs are if the reign is long enough. They had a perfect opportunity to do that with the Kings, but they wasted it on an ultra-predictable title win, the same way they did with Nigel (not entirely their fault) and the Wolves in 2009. In 2004, everyone thought Samoa Joe was dropping the belt to CM Punk at All-Star Extravaganza 2. They'd had the two time limit draws, Punk had come closer than anyone ever, he was the hot property. But then Joe beat him, which made it mean so much more when Aries beat Joe. If the Kings had beaten Haas and Benjamin in Atlanta, and then dropped the belts to someone else later, it would have been huge, because the Kings would have looked even more dominant by beating the team everyone thought was going to take the belts off them, and then whoever won would have been even more established. Putting the belts on WGTT to begin with was boring and predictable, and was done pretty much purely because WGTT can "bring in new fans".

Let me stress again that the problem isn't using ex-WWE names. It worked with Gibson, it worked with Kendrick, it kind of worked with Albright. It worked with Matt Hardy even. I'd even say it worked with Joey Matthews. The problem is that the ex-WWE names they are using have proven time and time again that they do not belong in the company from an in-ring standpoint, and yet they continue to keep them around, and not only that, they have the tag team titles on them.

Would you be okay with it if Batista came to ROH? No, right? Because Batista fucking sucks, right? Then why are Haas and Benjamin any different?

Better yet, what's the difference between ROH bringing in WGTT and TNA bringing in the Nasty Boys?



Spoiler: the answer



TNA didn't put the tag titles on the Nasty Boys.


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## smitlick (Jun 9, 2006)

I'm sorry but comparing the WGTT to The Nasty Boys is just ridiculous...


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## Obfuscation (Apr 15, 2006)

I don't think that's bad at all. He's getting his point across of guys past their prime not being an essential part of the roster. Going off on past fame in order to track in viewers is seemingly the route ROH is going. Have to think that is what TNA did when they brought the Nasty Boys back.


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## smitlick (Jun 9, 2006)

But what team are still capable of being entertaining.. The other needs booze and probably other substances to function.


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## Obfuscation (Apr 15, 2006)

I'm sure that area is far from what his comparison meant. Especially since it was about the companies and not so much the talent being one in the same.


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## jawbreaker (May 16, 2009)

smitlick said:


> But what team are still capable of being entertaining.. The other needs booze and probably other substances to function.


WGTT are capable of being in a decent match if the other team works perfectly around all their flaws (Cole/O'Reilly) or if the other team is just so good that they can't drag it down too much (Kings of Wrestling). That's really not far off where the Nasty Boys are.


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## seabs (Jun 16, 2007)

*The comparison is fine for the point he's trying to prove. Obviously WGTT have the potential to do much better than the Nasty Boys ever had when they were brought in by TNA and TNA probably had zero hopes for NB putting on great matches whereas Cornette and Kelly not only fully believe that WGTT are brilliant and can have show stealing matches but that they have been brilliant and are having great matches. Would it be a different story if both guys, especially Haas didn't have the relationship they did with 2 of the most influential people in the company? Probably. It's like Gabe with Callihan. He thinks he's the greatest thing alive so he pushes him like he is regardless of how good everyone else thinks he is.

Nasty Boys were a million times better than WGTT ever were at their peak anyway and they probably drew a lot more and had a much bigger impact on the business than Haas or Benjamin.

Bringing in WGTT wasn't the problem. They had a reputation for being able to work really good WWE TV style matches and the prospect of them working in ROH was great. The problem is how much of a let down they've been and that's become a major issue when they're not only the tag champs but they're also a major representation of the company and when they're having bad matches like they are it not only makes them look bad but they make their opponents look poor too and that hurts the product as a whole, even more so for new fans who are tuning into see Haas and Benjamin. They have bad matches with guys like Cabana, Generico, Elgin and Briscoes and that makes these fans who watch just for WGTT because they're familiar with them think that it's the the ROH guys who suck because they know none the wiser.*


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## Matt_Yoda (Jun 19, 2011)

But wouldn't those views be subjective anyway? Not trying to start a E-fight or anything, but you all generalize Haas and Benjamin as bad wrestlers for the ROH product as if it is a concrete concensus. Its a business and ROH isn't exempt from that status; What I mean is if WGTT is legitimately bringing business to ROH while providing an image that fits the ROH mould (whatever that means) of course the higher ups will value them.

I'm" of the opinion that when they want to, both Haas and Benjamin are capable of putting together some great matches. I personally think that for bringing in "outsiders" Cornette could've potentially done worse than Wrestling's Greatest Tag Team in my opinion.


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## Obfuscation (Apr 15, 2006)

Not at all. If a team is coming out there and giving mediocre or flat out BAD perfomances, then I think the points that are being made do stand. Considering they are current champions and have that "name" factor about them only adds to it.


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## Fighter Daron (Jul 14, 2011)

What Seabs said, I agree completely.


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## jawbreaker (May 16, 2009)

Matt_Yoda said:


> But wouldn't those views be subjective anyway? Not trying to start a E-fight or anything, but you all generalize Haas and Benjamin as bad wrestlers for the ROH product as if it is a concrete concensus. Its a business and ROH isn't exempt from that status; What I mean is if WGTT is legitimately bringing business to ROH while providing an image that fits the ROH mould (whatever that means) of course the higher ups will value them.
> 
> I'm" of the opinion that when they want to, both Haas and Benjamin are capable of putting together some great matches. I personally think that for bringing in "outsiders" Cornette could've potentially done worse than Wrestling's Greatest Tag Team in my opinion.


But when the image people watch them for doesn't match up with the reality of what people see, that can't be good for the company. If someone watched ROH to see WGTT, and then saw that they weren't having good matches, despite ROH claiming that they were, the initial response would be to wonder why, and here are the potential answers:

"They just had a bad day." - probably the most likely, also likely to be ruled out as more matches are watched.

"They just had a shitty opponent." - bad for the company for obvious reasons. If the conclusion is that the ANX, Briscoes, Wolves, HOT, etc. are shitty, then why would anyone watch the product?

"They're actually just not any good." - bad for the company, because 1. they're actively promoting them as being good wrestlers and 2. they've got the fucking tag belts on them, which means they think they are what the fans want to see. The inference is that the company is either lying to you to get your money, or the company is not as good as you thought and you're not going to bother with them any more.

As for their match quality being subjective, it's really not. I mean I guess it technically is, but if you're using a reasonable definition of the job of a professional wrestler then if you think they've been having good matches then you haven't been paying attention.


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## Matt_Yoda (Jun 19, 2011)

Oh I'm" not disagreeing with you, I'm" indifferent to WGTT personally (don't necessarily like him but don't hate them either). You're right about the image ROH promotes vs. the image that the fans see but couldn't that argument be applied to almost every wrestling promotion, both at the major and indy level? I hear what you're saying though, if newer fans tune in to see WGTT in the context of them being former WWE employees in the more perceived competitive environment that ROH promotes and they fail to live up to those fans expectations and therefore never watch again then your points are even more valid.

On the same token (just hear me out here and I apologize if I'm" being redundant) from another perspective they may draw the most money or potentially draw the most in that particular division (ala the World Heavyweight Championship). Casual fans (in the scope of ROH visability) may lach on to WGTT much easier than others until they get a feel for some of the other talent on the show and since being the champion = the most visiability assumably, that is why WGTT are champions. If they have workers that can hide WGTT weaknesses while playing to their strengths, then in-ring work (subjective or not) will play a lesser role in the way fans (not all mind you) will perceive it, if that makes sense.


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## Beatles123 (Jan 26, 2010)

Saying WGTT is bad is only an opinion. As I said, Many like both WGTT and ROH's own talent. New viewers dig it, so it can't be all bad. 

Besides, you can tell that they're building up many tag teams to take thier place soon anyway, which I think explains the long reign SOMEWHAT. so...is it that big of a deal?

If I'm being honest I think many here loved WGTT until Best in the world and it's tag match, now people seem to magically hate them because it's the cool thing to do.

I can recall people absolutely loving them in ROH, and then BITW happened.

Let's look beyond that a minute...is it REALLY hindering them that much? Is it REALLY BOTHERING YOU so much that it turns you off to the product?

If it is...maybe you're just burnt out on ROH.

Honestly, the hate for them, while in a way valid, is TOTALLY overblown.

The Nasty boys and WGTT are two totally different situations. One happened due to the company being run by a dumb bitch who has absolutely no working brain cells in her head as far as how to run a product...the other is at least capable of contributing to the company despite personal preference. 

Shirley doesn't like the Young Bucks, does that mean they ought not to be in ROH? No. a lot of people disagree with him. Myself included.

No company is perfect, and I think in the case of the tag titles this issue is being made a bigger deal than it is. They'll lose the belts pretty soon if you don't like them, just wait until then.


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## geraldinhio (Feb 5, 2010)

Beatles123 said:


> Saying WGTT is bad is only an opinion. As I said, Many like both WGTT and ROH's own talent. New viewers dig it, so it can't be all bad.
> 
> Besides, you can tell that they're building up many tag teams to take thier place soon anyway, which I think explains the long reign SOMEWHAT. so...is it that big of a deal?
> 
> ...


_I don't think Crabtree is a woman. His username is based on a old English wrestler.

Anyway ,I'm sick of these WGTT discussions. It's usually Jawbreaker that brings them up , but whatever.I'm not the biggest fan of WGGT ,but Beatles123 has some obvious valid points. They're good from a business standpoint ,good for new viewers of the product etc etc all the reasons mentioned a thousand times therefore are good for the company.
_


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## Beatles123 (Jan 26, 2010)

D'oh! I should have known, I think I've made that mistake before. Edited. 

But yeah, if I could bring the topic back around a minute, the MATCH seems like it should be good. If you don't like WGTT, just pay attention to the others.

I'm just glad ROH seems to be gaining interest from it. It's good for them and indy wrestling in general.


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## jawbreaker (May 16, 2009)

Everyone thought they were good (except me) when they had only wrestled the Kings. Everyone told me to shut up back in April when I said they sucked and it was only a matter of time before everyone else figured it out. Guess who's being proven right?

Look, they're just not good. They have no clue how to get the fans behind them. They have no clue how to let the fans get behind their opponents. They have no clue how to get the fans to take their opponents seriously. They have no clue how to get the fans to care, period. If anyone still thinks they're having good matches, they'll stop thinking that once they see more and more, because their flaws will get exposed. It happened to me. Faster than everyone else, but I was still getting hyped for WGTT matches up until I saw their match with the Briscoes.

They're just not good, their shit just doesn't hold up once you stop letting yourself be blinded by their reputation. For some objective observations, here's my notes on their match with Generico and Cabana from Tag Team Turmoil:



> - The opening is about as bad as you can get from a tag match. Rather than let the crowd get into it, Haas decides to do some boring power shit with Generico that nobody in the crowd cares about. This is the absolute most basic tenet of short tag match structure, to let the babyface control the first exchange, and Haas doesn't fucking get it. God damn.
> 
> - Cabana's attempt to do his Cabana schtick falls completely flat because Haas and Benjamin flat-out refuse to play along. Shame. He could have gotten the crowd to have fun rather than be completely dead silent (which they were for a good stretch). Seriously, this was a well-mic'd, hot crowd, and they were dead silent for several stretches of this match.
> 
> ...


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## jeremya3690 (Dec 17, 2005)

I was at the greensboro show and the wgtt looked pretty good. They aren't as athletic as they were in wwe but they are still great wrestlers.


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## Beatles123 (Jan 26, 2010)

jawbreaker said:


> Everyone thought they were good (except me) when they had only wrestled the Kings. Everyone told me to shut up back in April when I said they sucked and it was only a matter of time before everyone else figured it out. Guess who's being proven right?
> 
> Look, they're just not good. They have no clue how to get the fans behind them. They have no clue how to let the fans get behind their opponents. They have no clue how to get the fans to take their opponents seriously. They have no clue how to get the fans to care, period. If anyone still thinks they're having good matches, they'll stop thinking that once they see more and more, because their flaws will get exposed. It happened to me. Faster than everyone else, but I was still getting hyped for WGTT matches up until I saw their match with the Briscoes.
> 
> They're just not good, their shit just doesn't hold up once you stop letting yourself be blinded by their reputation. For some objective observations, here's my notes on their match with Generico and Cabana from Tag Team Turmoil:


Again, subjective opinion.

The poster below you thought they looked good...who's to say who's right?


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## jawbreaker (May 16, 2009)

The person who's seen them more and seen them when the onus is on them to carry a match?


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## Beatles123 (Jan 26, 2010)

Let's say that I saw more of The Rock then you and I tell you that Rock is absolutely corny and not worth your time.

Are you going to take my opinion as fact or form your own?

Just because YOU aren't a fan does not make the wrestler good or bad.


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## Obfuscation (Apr 15, 2006)

To be fair, he's not getting on some talent who totally doesn't deserve to be questioned. It's like whenever I tell people how horrible Matt Morgan is. Sure, it's more or less my opinion, but I mean how could someone not see that I have a point to what I say? To some extent I can see where Jawbreaker is coming from with this. I think the discussion has reached its course for good though. He's not a fan. Some might not mind WGTT being in ROH. There we go. I think we hit the wall here.


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## Beatles123 (Jan 26, 2010)

Agreed. ANYWAY....

How bout that Kevin Steen fellow?


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## Obfuscation (Apr 15, 2006)

Excellent, per usual.


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## jawbreaker (May 16, 2009)

I don't even care to argue that WGTT are terrible in the ring because that's just so blatantly obvious that if you pay close enough attention you can't think otherwise. Also they once apologized to the fans for their performance.

What I will argue to the death is that having them in the company, and putting the tag titles on them, is Exhibit A of ROH abandoning their roots, and nobody can argue that they haven't.


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## Emperor DC (Apr 3, 2006)

Everyone support CHIKARA instead.

Simples.


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## Concrete (May 28, 2010)

Ugh. What started out as you making a point has become very annoying. But continuing the new conversation at hand, Kevin Steen is amazing.He gets it done on the mic and in the ring.


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## Bubz (Jul 19, 2007)

Wow, this argument is still going on? It's been on-going for about a week :lmao.

WGTT suck and Kevin Steen is awesome, that's pretty much what everyone should be agreeing on right now .


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## Obfuscation (Apr 15, 2006)

DeeCee said:


> Everyone support CHIKARA instead.
> 
> Simples.





Bubz said:


> Wow, this argument is still going on? It's been on-going for about a week :lmao.
> 
> WGTT suck and Kevin Steen is awesome, that's pretty much what everyone should be agreeing on right now .


Agreed with all of this.


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## jeremya3690 (Dec 17, 2005)

I don't see why all the dislike for WGTT, there an awesome tag team. And I agree everyone should support Chikara. But ROH has been really good too.


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## Beatles123 (Jan 26, 2010)

LOL. It really is silly how some here act as if opinion is fact.

AAAAAAAAAAANYWAY....I wouldn't have bumped this, but I was wondering if anyone knows when the show will be posted.


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## geraldinhio (Feb 5, 2010)

Bubz said:


> Wow, this argument is still going on? It's been on-going for about a week :lmao.
> 
> WGTT suck and *Kevin Steen is awesome*, that's pretty much what everyone should be agreeing on right now .


It's a pointless argument that pops up more often then not. It's usually Jawbreaker involved too.

Also who said Steen isn't awesome ?


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## Corey (Aug 11, 2006)

Beatles123 said:


> LOL. It really is silly how some here act as if opinion is fact.
> 
> AAAAAAAAAAANYWAY....I wouldn't have bumped this, but I was wondering if anyone knows when the show will be posted.


DVD won't be in out for at least another month, so my guess would be end of January maybe.


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## SHIRLEY (Jun 9, 2009)

The bitching when Chikara gets more popular will be hilarious.

"They changed Tursas's horns! All they care about is the profit!".


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## Emperor DC (Apr 3, 2006)

Shirley Crabtree III said:


> The bitching when Chikara gets more popular will be hilarious.
> 
> "They changed Tursas's horns! All they care about is the profit!".


You're forgetting one crucial aspect.

Tursas shall let no other species touch its horns.


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## peachchaos (Nov 16, 2010)

ROH has many problems and they all span far beyond the WGTT push, but that certainly doesn't help and isn't doing anything to win over viewers. Everyone I've shown the new TV show has thought it was pretty bad, save for the Inside ROH segments, which don't do much for anyone if the matches aren't great and the production sucks. 

I hate to say it, but I'm actually looking forward to WRP since at least its a fresh take and will hopefully be shot in HD.


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## Concrete (May 28, 2010)

I am so badly looking forward to WRP as well. It sounds like it will be completely new. I truly believe that ROH needs to start going full steam ahead because WRP is said to be not going on TV but going on hulu. That is a unique approach and could actually get more viewers than ROH. Plus they have a lot of popular and skilled wrestlers in an entirely new "universe".


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## jawbreaker (May 16, 2009)

yeah I hope WRP can be okay. I'm ready for something different, which is what EVOLVE tried and ultimately has failed to do (in my view). WRP appears to be going the opposite direction, which I'm absolutely down with.


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## Obfuscation (Apr 15, 2006)

Shirley Crabtree III said:


> The bitching when Chikara gets more popular will be hilarious.
> 
> "They changed Tursas's horns! All they care about is the profit!".


I'll kick them in the nuts.


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## smitlick (Jun 9, 2006)

You all do realise WRP is going to be like 10 episodes at a time and isn't exactly going to be a year round promotion like PWG/Chikara/ROH.


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## jawbreaker (May 16, 2009)

Yep. That doesn't mean I'm not interested in it.


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## Concrete (May 28, 2010)

Yeah, I don't see any reason for the fact that it is only a 10 episode season to change my excitement for the show. Almost every show on TV has seasons. This way storylines are significantly less likely to be messed up being they shoot a season in like 1 or 2 really long days.If they can't get someone for the next season from the first its okay, they'll just right a chapter in someone elses story. Here is hoping that WRP is like WMAC Masters. And if you have never seen that show I feel sorry for you.


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## Obfuscation (Apr 15, 2006)

enlightenedone9 said:


> Yeah, I don't see any reason for the fact that it is only a 10 episode season to change my excitement for the show. Almost every show on TV has seasons. This way storylines are significantly less likely to be messed up being they shoot a season in like 1 or 2 really long days.If they can't get someone for the next season from the first its okay, they'll just right a chapter in someone elses story.* Here is hoping that WRP is like WMAC Masters. *And if you have never seen that show I feel sorry for you.


:lmao

so many memories from my childhood flooding in. I was a fan of THE MACHINE.


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## Concrete (May 28, 2010)

It was such wonderfulness. Damn it they need to bring it back haha


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