# Fan gets kicked out for bringing a transphobic sign aimed at Nyla Rose



## 45banshee (Jan 7, 2019)

Like politics, abortions, and religion..I feel like no matter what side I take im gonna get crapped on. Your for the fan getting kicked out? Your soft mannn. You think the fan should be allowed to stay? You support this awful behavior. Fuck it dear IWC reader! Ill let YOU decide if AEW was in the right to kick him out. Jim doesn't seem to think so










I do have one legit question. It says Nyla Rose has a wife and she commented on the situation. Does that make the wife a lesbian? A woman who like a man who dresses like a woman..so that makes her straight? I legit don't know









AEW Fan Ejected For Aiming Transphobic Sign At Openly Transgender Wrestler Nyla Rose


An AEW fan was ejected for holding up a transphobic sign directed at openly transgender wrestler Nyla Rose on Wednesday.




www.tmz.com


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## go stros (Feb 16, 2020)

this should go well


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## KingofKings1524 (Aug 27, 2007)

Eh, I laughed, but you could tell that shithead was annoying everyone around him and was trying to make the show about himself. My guess is he was actually trying to get kicked out so he can bitch about it on Twitter.


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## Big Booty Bex (Jan 24, 2020)

I like how the article says Nyla was clearly offended by the sign even opening up the headline with a sad looking Nyla picture, but then only to show us that Nyla didn't look offended at all and was more like she was laughing the sign off, like saying "Oh yeah hahaha just another pos from the IWC." lol.


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## the_hound (Jun 14, 2016)

the comment she made on twitter was pretty fucking low but then again she shouldn't have to deal with that shit in this day in age.


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## jobber81 (Oct 10, 2016)

Nyla Rose is that guy's dad? thats it?


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## Geert Wilders (Jan 18, 2021)

Is being transphobic more acceptable than racism?
Why is it unacceptable to be racist, but acceptable to be transphobic?

don’t be stupid OP.If someone came in with asign saying “X is a ni**er” they rightfully be kicked out.

so nothing wrong with this transphobic cunt to be ejected.


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## Erik. (Mar 17, 2014)

Talk about telling on yourself that you believe what's ruining wrestling is that it no longer embraces open bigotry.


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## Geeee (Aug 9, 2010)

Cornette is right about one thing, times have changed. Even just 10 years ago, calling someone a homophobic slur was a common PG-13 insult and now it is one of the worst things you can say. Language and culture evolve and with the advent of the internet, the evolution has sped up at an exponential rate.


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## Geert Wilders (Jan 18, 2021)

Geeee said:


> Cornette is right about one thing, times have changed. Even just 10 years ago, calling someone a homophobic slur was a common PG-13 insult and now it is one of the worst things you can say. Language and culture evolve and with the advent of the internet, the evolution has sped up at an exponential rate.


I disagree. Calling someone gay is not an insult. It was before - not anymore. F*ggot has always been insulting. Even before. It’s never been acceptable to call someone a f*ggot


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## Dickhead1990 (Aug 31, 2016)

Anyone that goes through the trouble of making a sign for this purpose and shows it off at a live, televised event needs to get their head checked.

I know many will complain about their right to free speech, but no!


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## AuthorOfPosts (Feb 9, 2020)

This, right after the incident with the tag partner of the bad rapper, isn't a great look.



ireekofawesumnes said:


> id comment on this but the soft ass mods have suspended me before for stating unquestionable biology so...yall can figure it out.


If you have biological evidence that she's that guy's dad then I'd like to see what you come up with...


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## Geeee (Aug 9, 2010)

ireekofawesumnes said:


> id comment on this but the soft ass mods have suspended me before for stating unquestionable biology so...yall can figure it out


hypothesis: gender is entirely based on two chromosomes

result: actually there are millions of transgender people

By the scientific method, if your results don't match the hypothesis, you need a new hypothesis.


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## One Shed (Jan 7, 2014)

No way this ends well for anyone.


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## $Dolladrew$ (Jun 15, 2020)

45banshee said:


> Like politics, abortions, and religion..I feel like no matter what side I take im gonna get crapped on. Your for the fan getting kicked out? Your soft mannn. You think the fan should be allowed to stay? You support this awful behavior. Fuck it dear IWC reader! Ill let YOU decide if AEW was in the right to kick him out. Jim doesn't seem to think so
> 
> View attachment 113646
> 
> ...


Yes Nylas wife is a lesbian shes with a chick.....nyla is full post operation meaning her man tackle is gone.

I may not understand or agree with everything gay or trans or whatever but if you go full cut your junk off you've earned the right to be called female if you like in my book.


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## M1M2M3M4M5M6M7M8 (Dec 15, 2004)

Ockap said:


> Wrestling may be worked, but I can only suspend my disbelief so much. nyla is a FUCKING MAN. Enough of this make believe horse shit. One of these days this idiot is gonna hurt a woman wrestler.


Didn’t she once hurt Britt Baker?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Fearless Viper (Apr 6, 2019)

I wish Cena would've ask Vince to throw out the fans that chanted mean things at him at the peak of anti-Cena era.


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## genghis hank (Jun 27, 2014)

Geert Wilders said:


> I disagree. Calling someone gay is not an insult. It was before - not anymore. F*ggot has always been insulting. Even before. It’s never been acceptable to call someone a f*ggot


It‘s always been insulting, but it has a varied meaning which often isn’t related to homosexuality. It doesn’t have the same history or impact that the n word has. Only in the U.S. would anyone compare the two words in offensiveness.


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## Geert Wilders (Jan 18, 2021)

Geeee said:


> hypothesis: gender is entirely based on two chromosomes
> 
> result: actually there are millions of transgender people
> 
> By the scientific method, if your results don't match the hypothesis, you need a new hypothesis.


Exactly. The two chromosome theory is clearly outdated. There are many scientists working on new hypotheses because clearly chromosomes are not the only determining factor for gender.

Transsexuals have existed since the dawn of man


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## Ger (Jul 20, 2018)

45banshee said:


> I do have one legit question. It says Nyla Rose has a wife and she commented on the situation. Does that make the wife a lesbian? A woman who like a man who dresses like a woman..so that makes her straight? I legit don't know


Sure, you are curious, I get that.  But is not really a legit question, because that is just their cup of tea. We had a thread about such issues on AEW section days ago.
Looking on the specific situation: guy put himself on the perfect spot to get the camera all the time, so he was not just a random fan with a random bad sign. It would be interesting to know, if they just asked him to put down the sign or change the place and what happened then from his side. Not saying he did bad stuff as longt I don't know yet. I just saw enough videos before and made the experience my self at events, that some guys out there cannot stop making the show about themself, until the neighbour viewers even ask the security to bring that guy away. Never asked for that myself, but not everybody got my tolerance.


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## ireekofawesumnes (Mar 4, 2017)

AuthorOfPosts said:


> If you have biological evidence that she's that guy's dad then I'd like to see what you come up with...


 unfortunately i cannot produce that lmao


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## Prosper (Mar 25, 2015)

Imagine buying a front row ticket and getting kicked out 45 minutes in just for the sake of trying to purposely hurt someone's feelings. People are pathetic.


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## dsnotgood (Jun 28, 2011)

I think they should confiscate any signs not related to wrestling or stories. Stuff like politics, racism, this stuff , etc. all of those signs need to go. Also twitter should be shut down, fuck that place.


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## Mutant God (Sep 9, 2015)

"Nyla Rose is this Guy's dad" seems harmless to me and Nyla should have just gone with it and said "yeah I am his and your daddy too" if she hasn't already


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## Tell it like it is (Jul 1, 2019)

These people aren't fans of wrestling or AEW, they just pay to cause trouble for their "friends" on scjerk, and make their cult daddy happy.


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## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

first off - Nyla gets this all the time / on twitter etc etc

she does not give a single fuck - so, the article writer can piss off with the 'offended' stuff

secondly, the guy was an annoying prick clearly, and just like on this board, there is no space for transphobia bullshit in the stadium - have your opinions in your house and in your head and with your circle of friends - nobody is stopping you

but this board, and the stadium is a public space - and you have to take certain social factors into account / not the least of which is how your behaviour affects not just the talent but those around you

its just basic empathy

so, in short 'good'


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## HBK Styles Ospreay (Jan 15, 2020)

45banshee said:


> Like politics, abortions, and religion..I feel like no matter what side I take im gonna get crapped on. Your for the fan getting kicked out? Your soft mannn. You think the fan should be allowed to stay? You support this awful behavior. Fuck it dear IWC reader! Ill let YOU decide if AEW was in the right to kick him out. Jim doesn't seem to think so
> 
> View attachment 113646
> 
> ...


You said you weren't gonna go there, you dirty ignorant mother fucker! And then you say pretty much the most transphobic thing possible... Nyla Rose is a woman, so yes BOTH Nyla and her wife are lesbians. If Nyla was married to a Man, then they would be a straight couple... not difficult to figure out. 

As far as the stupid asshole with the sign, I'm glad they through his moronic ass out in the parking lot, and hopefully somebody roughed him up too! I saw Nyla flipped that fucker off when she got in the ring, good for her. Since you seem to need further education... Nyla would never be someone's dad. Seeing as she's now a woman, any biological children would call her Mom. But most trans-women don't have biological children, because after like 2 years on HRT, the estrogen make us sterile.


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## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

Ps) obvs the guy is a corny fan as well - unless people want to tell me he didn’t push the ‘hardly boys’ thing the hardest










and lastly, fuck Cornette - the building is far from 'empty' - they draw very very well / we all know this


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## El Hammerstone (Jan 11, 2020)

Threads like this always turn out well


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## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

Ger said:


> Sure, you are curious, I get that.  But is not really a legit question, because that is just their cup of tea. We had a thread about such issues on AEW section days ago.
> Looking on the specific situation: guy put himself on the perfect spot to get the camera all the time, so he was not just a random fan with a random bad sign. It would be interesting to know, if they just asked him to put down the sign or change the place and what happened then from his side. Not saying he did bad stuff as longt I don't know yet. I just saw enough videos before and made the experience my self at events, that some guys out there cannot stop making the show about themself, until the neighbour viewers even ask the security to bring that guy away. Never asked for that myself, but not everybody got my tolerance.


the guy was clearly there with an agenda

his signs were not pre-made

he was writing stuff on blank sheets with marker as the show went on

camera side, front row, blank sheets - too risky to have him on camera all the time


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## I am Groot (May 2, 2017)

This is such a WWE thing to do


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## jobber81 (Oct 10, 2016)

LifeInCattleClass said:


> Ps) obvs the guy is a corny fan as well - unless people want to tell me he didn’t push the ‘hardly boys’ thing the hardest
> 
> View attachment 113650
> 
> ...


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## NapperX (Jan 2, 2014)

You may not always agree with the LGBTQ community, but the fan deserved to be kicked out for obvious reasons.


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## dsnotgood (Jun 28, 2011)

NapperX said:


> You may not always agree with the LGBTQ community, but the fan deserved to be kicked out for obvious reasons.


I think signs supporting or opposing anything need to go. Stick to wrestling or get your signs taken. It’s a stupid slippery slope if you allow some shit and not other shit. Just ban them all


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## yeahright2 (Feb 11, 2011)

ireekofawesumnes said:


> id comment on this but the soft ass mods have suspended me before for stating unquestionable biology so...yall can figure it out


I´m not touching this one either. I´ve been on sites where you get told "If you don´t have anything positive to say about Nyla, you´re transphobic ! ", regardless if you just think Nyla is the worst wrestler in history, man OR woman.
That´s why it´s impossible to have a serious discussion about such things. They´re shut down before they get started.


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## Mister Abigail (May 22, 2014)

It’s simple really. Don’t be an asshole.

The guy made a sign for the purpose of being an asshole. There’s no defending it. The sign was made to be shitty to someone. He came to the show after pre-planning signs to be a shitty person to someone.

For that, he needed to be punished. Also, for those saying ‘times have changed’ yes they have. It was never cool to be an asshole to someone, it’s just that people are now standing up to the assholes. People aren’t getting weaker, they are getting stronger. If you think otherwise, then perhaps it’s you who is scared of someone standing up to you.


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## A PG Attitude (Nov 5, 2012)

Whatever side of the fence you sit on, just be a decent fucking human being when you're out in public. If you wanna hate on certain people that's on you but do it quietly out of public sight.


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## RainmakerV2 (Nov 8, 2017)

LifeInCattleClass said:


> first off - Nyla gets this all the time / on twitter etc etc
> 
> she does not give a single fuck - so, the article writer can piss off with the 'offended' stuff
> 
> ...



She obviously gives a fuck lol, don't be foolish


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## Lurker V2.0 (Feb 2, 2021)

Everyone has a phobia and it’s ok. The civil thing to do is to not cast your phobia onto others. I mean you don’t see me out here trying to keep everyone from driving over bridges.


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## Mister Abigail (May 22, 2014)

45banshee said:


> I do have one legit question. It says Nyla Rose has a wife and she commented on the situation. Does that make the wife a lesbian? A woman who like a man who dresses like a woman..so that makes her straight? I legit don't know


This just says you need to expand your knowledge of people. It makes you sound sheltered. Meet some people of different backgrounds and cultures than yourself and it might expand your viewpoints. There’s a big wide world out there and not everyone is the same as you. This is not a put-down or criticism. The world has changed and that’s just fact.


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## One Shed (Jan 7, 2014)

LifeInCattleClass said:


> first off - Nyla gets this all the time / on twitter etc etc
> 
> she does not give a single fuck - so, the article writer can piss off with the 'offended' stuff
> 
> ...


It is actually the opposite of a public space. It, like this board is privately owned. That person COULD have held up that sign in a public space without threat of removal, but they had every right to kick him out of the arena.


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## Botchy SinCara (Apr 24, 2013)

Better watch out mods will ban you if you don't word your comments just right about Nyla

I'm fine with trans people ..be you but when it comes to sports and stuff men play with men and women play with women ..there is a reason we separated sports ..for example two of the top women tennis players got their butts handed to them by some out of shape guy who smoked who was at the bottom list of male players 

may be fake but sooner or later nyla will seriously hurt someone


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## Irish Jet (Nov 15, 2011)

What a fucking asshole.

These edgelords are a stain on humanity.


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## Mister Abigail (May 22, 2014)

Randy Lahey said:


> Nyla shouldn’t even be in the women’s division. Biologically born males dominating female athletes is a joke and has set back “women’s rights” for decades.
> 
> AEW should do 2 things:
> 
> ...


You don’t know any trans people, do you?


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## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

RainmakerV2 said:


> She obviously gives a fuck lol, don't be foolish


did she tell you?



Two Sheds said:


> It is actually the opposite of a public space. It, like this board is privately owned. That person COULD have held up that sign in a public space without threat of removal, but they had every right to kick him out of the arena.


fair enough - its a privately owned space with standards and practices


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## One Shed (Jan 7, 2014)

LifeInCattleClass said:


> fair enough - its a privately owned space with standards and practices


Yes, exactly.


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## RainmakerV2 (Nov 8, 2017)

LifeInCattleClass said:


> did she tell you?



Why flick the guy off if you didn't care?


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## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

RainmakerV2 said:


> Why flick the guy off if you didn't care?


to show you don't care?

the smile and the middle finger is kinda a universal sign for 'fuuuck you who gives a fuuuck'

like so 😏🖕


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## RainmakerV2 (Nov 8, 2017)

LifeInCattleClass said:


> to show you don't care?
> 
> the smile and the middle finger is kinda a universal sign for 'fuuuck you who gives a fuuuck'
> 
> like so 😏🖕


No, it's a universal sign for fuck you. Not I don't give a fuck what you say. Usually if you're mad enough to flip the bird, you give a fuck.


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## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

RainmakerV2 said:


> No, it's a universal sign for fuck you. Not I don't give a fuck what you say. Usually if you're mad enough to flip the bird, you give a fuck.


😏 🖕 

interpret what i am feeling now


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## RainmakerV2 (Nov 8, 2017)

LifeInCattleClass said:


> 😏 🖕
> 
> interpret what i am feeling now



I'm probably under your skin by pointing out you misinterpreted what flipping the bird means. Hence, you flipped me the bird.


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## Driver79 (Sep 19, 2021)

Mister Abigail said:


> It’s simple really. Don’t be an asshole.
> 
> The guy made a sign for the purpose of being an asshole. There’s no defending it. The sign was made to be shitty to someone. He came to the show after pre-planning signs to be a shitty person to someone.
> 
> For that, he needed to be punished. Also, for those saying ‘times have changed’ yes they have. It was never cool to be an asshole to someone, it’s just that people are now standing up to the assholes. People aren’t getting weaker, they are getting stronger. If you think otherwise, then perhaps it’s you who is scared of someone standing up to you.


I mostly agree with you. Guy is definitely an asshole and he had no good reason for that sign.

But I also think we trend down a slippery slope when you start punishing people for being assholes. Wresting audiences have a lot of assholes in them, and I'm sure a lot of them are carrying signs. 

Let's say some fan brought a sign to Dyamite and it had some crude remark about some wrestler's wife, do you believe that person would have been kicked out? I'm asking honestly because I don't know if there has been a similar situation.


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## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

RainmakerV2 said:


> I'm probably under your skin by pointing out you misinterpreted what flipping the bird means. Hence, you flipped me the bird.


you see? you're not very good at this


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## One Shed (Jan 7, 2014)

Can we please have this discussion on a platform like Twitter that is more appropriate and known for nuanced and respectful debate?


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## IronMan8 (Dec 25, 2015)

Botchy SinCara said:


> Better watch out mods will ban you if you don't word your comments just right about Nyla
> 
> I'm fine with trans people ..be you but when it comes to sports and stuff men play with men and women play with women ..there is a reason we separated sports ..for example two of the top women tennis players got their butts handed to them by some out of shape guy who smoked who was at the bottom list of male players
> 
> may be fake but sooner or later nyla will seriously hurt someone


Your argument is wrong because wrestling is a performance.

If Kenny Omega can safely perform wrestling moves on a 9yo girl, then Nyla can safely perform with smaller women than herself, just like she's done safely in AEW for 3 years.

Please take the time to honestly expand your understanding of the world around you. You're being disingenuous about a serious topic that you're wrong about. I'm genuinely helping to give you feedback for your own benefit. Your core view about trans people is ignorant, so please make an honest effort to figure out how to build a better framework of the world in your head.

Only you can raise your own consciousness.


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## Mister Abigail (May 22, 2014)

Driver79 said:


> I mostly agree with you. Guy is definitely an asshole and he had no good reason for that sign.
> 
> But I also think we trend down a slippery slope when you start punishing people for being assholes. Wresting audiences have a lot of assholes in them, and I'm sure a lot of them are carrying signs.
> 
> Let's say some fan brought a sign to Dyamite and it had some crude remark about some wrestler's wife, do you believe that person would have been kicked out? I'm asking honestly because I don't know if there has been a similar situation.


Depends what it says and how they react when someone calls them on it. A lot of these things depend on context. If someone brought a sign which said, “Chris Jerichos wife is a whore and sucks dicks for money” then… buh bye.


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## El Hammerstone (Jan 11, 2020)

Emotions be running wild in this thread, but I guess that just means that nobody really cares


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## IronMan8 (Dec 25, 2015)

Driver79 said:


> I mostly agree with you. Guy is definitely an asshole and he had no good reason for that sign.
> 
> But I also think we trend down a slippery slope when you start punishing people for being assholes. Wresting audiences have a lot of assholes in them, and I'm sure a lot of them are carrying signs.
> 
> Let's say some fan brought a sign to Dyamite and it had some crude remark about some wrestler's wife, do you believe that person would have been kicked out? I'm asking honestly because I don't know if there has been a similar situation.


Transphobic jokes are in exactly the same category as racist jokes.

Bigoted signs are on a different level to any subjectively rude sign that would fit into the slippery slope argument you're trying to make.

You're downplaying the fan's behaviour by framing it as just being an asshole, which fails to recognise why the sign fits in the same category as racism and isn't a choice such as the person you decide to marry, which was your example you're asking for a distinction between.

Did you know actual brain scans reveal that trans women have the physical brain of a woman? They're not born as a typical man and then make a conscious choice to live differently.

Trans women are simply trying to live consistently with the biological truth of their own DNA and the world around them that's telling them their biological truth is wrong because those people don't know anything about the topic except for what they know about themselves.

This fan's sign is counter to scientific reality, and is wrong because it makes it impossible for Nyla's reality to match society's wrong version of reality this fan is trying to incorrectly impose on her.

This situation is like the old church from pre-telescope times telling scientists they are wrong about the earth being round, because they believe it's flat.

Their imposition of a false reality on other people was wrong then, just as this situation is wrong now. I pray you'll agree.

I've chosen to single your post out for these facts because you seem capable of understanding it. 

Happy to answer questions respectfully.


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## Driver79 (Sep 19, 2021)

Botchy SinCara said:


> I'm fine with trans people ..be you but when it comes to sports and stuff men play with men and women play with women ..there is a reason we separated sports ..for example two of the top women tennis players got their butts handed to them by some out of shape guy who smoked who was at the bottom list of male players
> 
> may be fake but sooner or later nyla will seriously hurt someone


You would think that a trans woman would want to compete with the men anyway. Not only do they have more physically in common with the men, but it's also widely accepted as the higher standard of excellence in terms of physical performance.

A trans-woman winning a male event would actually be a larger statement than winning a female event. You don't really prove anything by beating biological women other than getting validation for your identity.



Mister Abigail said:


> Depends what it says and how they react when someone calls them on it. A lot of these things depend on context. If someone brought a sign which said, “Chris Jerichos wife is a whore and sucks dicks for money” then… buh bye.


Okay that's fine then. Under those same circumstances I believe the fan who brought this sign should be reprimanded. 

I just don't want to trend down a path where we have certain protected classes where it becomes a crime to hurt their feelings.


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## Driver79 (Sep 19, 2021)

IronMan8 said:


> *Transphobic jokes are in exactly the same category as racist jokes.*
> 
> You're downplaying the fan's behaviour by framing it as just being an asshole.
> 
> ...



Yea... they're both jokes.


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## Rozzop (Aug 26, 2019)

Being offended on someone else's behalf is always hilarious. 

Did she say she was offended? 

I bet she loves the attention. Makes her relevant. Bet she wishes the whole arena was holding signs like that.


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## IronMan8 (Dec 25, 2015)

Mutant God said:


> "Nyla Rose is this Guy's dad" seems harmless to me and Nyla should have just gone with it and said "yeah I am his and your daddy too" if she hasn't already


Please see my post above and ask questions if you have any.

What you're saying is the same as saying there's nothing wrong with making racial slurs.

Is that your stance?



Driver79 said:


> Yea... they're both jokes.


I spent a fair amount of time responding to your post.

Do you have any thoughts on anything beyond the opening line?


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## Mister Abigail (May 22, 2014)

Rozzop said:


> Being offended on someone else's behalf is always hilarious.
> 
> Did she say she was offended?
> 
> I bet she loves the attention. Makes her relevant. Bet she wishes the whole arena was holding signs like that.


You have no idea how she feels. Nobody does except those close to her. 

Anyway, what Nyla feels is fairly irrelevant with regards to the sign. Making the sign with the intention to be a dick is the reason for DELETION not how Nyla felt about it. The sign was held up for many to see.

Nyla/Trans/Race/Sex whatever aside, just don’t be a dick to people for lols. You can be funny without making others feel bad. Do that instead.


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## Mutant God (Sep 9, 2015)

IronMan8 said:


> Please see my post above and ask questions if you have any.
> 
> What you're saying is the same as saying there's nothing wrong with making racial slurs.
> 
> Is that your stance?


Jokes are different then slurs

In fighting Dad/Daddy can mean they are dominate and the other person is weak, Sign Guy could be saying that the guy next to him is weak also "the guy" could be older or around the same age then Nyla which would make it impossible for her to be his parent thus making it a joke. Sign Guy did not write any transphobic slurs/words on his sign he wrote a joke.


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## Mister Abigail (May 22, 2014)

Mutant God said:


> Jokes are different then slurs
> 
> In fighting Dad/Daddy can mean they are dominate and the other person is weak, Sign Guy could be saying that the guy next to him is weak also "the guy" could be older or around the same age then Nyla which would make it impossible for her to be his parent thus making it a joke. Sign Guy did not write any transphobic slurs/words on his sign he wrote a joke.


Is that what you honestly think happened?


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## Driver79 (Sep 19, 2021)

IronMan8 said:


> I spent a fair amount of time responding to your post.
> 
> Do you have any thoughts on anything beyond the opening line?


Sorry, just wanted to make that distinction. A joke is just a joke after all, no matter what motivates it. Throughout my life I have had friends of all colors and all variety, and most of the time we have been able to laugh at each other. I don't think "racist jokes" or "trans-phobic jokes" are any worse than any other kind of joke because I don't think jokes are harmful.

As per the rest of your post, I think people want to have it both ways. I think they want to argue that people are born a certain way when it is convenient, and I also think people want to argue that it's a choice when it's convenient. And like I said in my previous post, I don't think it is a good idea to have protected classes. If we can joke about every other group of people, then we can joke about trans people. Even when they don't like what we have to say.


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## IronMan8 (Dec 25, 2015)

FYI:

Trans people are biologically different to men and women at birth. 

If you're a man or a woman, your experience of reality doesn't overlap with the scientific reality for trans people.

If you impose your limited understanding of reality on trans people, it's more than just being an asshole. 

You're imposing a false version of reality on another person, so you're not letting them live freely in alignment with their biological reality.

Happy to respectfully reply to questions.


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## Rozzop (Aug 26, 2019)

Mister Abigail said:


> You have no idea how she feels. Nobody does except those close to her.
> 
> Anyway, what Nyla feels is fairly irrelevant with regards to the sign. Making the sign with the intention to be a dick is the reason for DELETION not how Nyla felt about it. The sign was held up for many to see.
> 
> Nyla/Trans/Race/Sex whatever aside, just don’t be a dick to people for lols. You can be funny without making others feel bad. Do that instead.


Why was he being a dick? 

Are you telling me that Nyla herself or any trans person out there saw that and was deeply offended? 

Seriously? 

Are trans people completely humourless? Or are the offended by everything brigade completely humourless?


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## Botchy SinCara (Apr 24, 2013)

IronMan8 said:


> Your argument is wrong because wrestling is a performance.
> 
> If Kenny Omega can safely perform wrestling moves on a 9yo girl, then Nyla can safely perform with smaller women than herself, just like she's done safely in AEW for 3 years.
> 
> ...




















Whole new game for Gabrielle Ludwig


A year after making headlines, 52-year-old transgender college basketball player Gabrielle Ludwig is finding acceptance, and that has her feeling like a new person.




www.espn.com






I stand by what I said when we have bs like this ..a grown man taking playing time away from college age girls and having an unfair advantage.










Transgender Texas wrestler wins second high school girls title


Mack Beggs wants to wrestle boys, but Texas rules won't let him




www.nbcnews.com















When transgender fighter Fallon Fox broke her opponent's skull in MMA fight


Fallon Fox, the first MMA fighter to come out as transgender, once fractured the skull of her opponent in an MMA fight in 2014.




www.sportskeeda.com





And how about this when a man was beating women in mma and causing serious harm .?


----------



## Mutant God (Sep 9, 2015)

Mister Abigail said:


> Is that what you honestly think happened?


Since he had other signs like the Hardly Bros sign I do think he cared more about trolling/joking then trying to insult/offend Nyla


----------



## Dickhead1990 (Aug 31, 2016)

genghis hank said:


> It‘s always been insulting, but it has a varied meaning which often isn’t related to homosexuality. It doesn’t have the same history or impact that the n word has. Only in the U.S. would anyone compare the two words in offensiveness.


It's a meat pie in old UK English. Still on the market too, though they're processed shite. Then there's the name...


----------



## IronMan8 (Dec 25, 2015)

Driver79 said:


> Sorry, just wanted to make that distinction. A joke is just a joke after all, no matter what motivates it. Throughout my life I have had friends of all colors and all variety, and most of the time we have been able to laugh at each other. I don't think "racist jokes" or "trans-phobic jokes" are any worse than any other kind of joke because I don't think jokes are harmful.
> 
> As per the rest of your post, I think people want to have it both ways. I think they want to argue that people are born a certain way when it is convenient, and I also think people want to argue that it's a choice when it's convenient. And like I said in my previous post, I don't think it is a good idea to have protected classes. If we can joke about every other group of people, then we can joke about trans people. Even when they don't like what we have to say.


I agree that humour is all or nothing, and it has to be all.

Should this sign be protected by the laws of comedy?

No, because the fan is not engaging in comedy in the context of comedic entertainment. They're not writing South Park, in which case they should be free to produce comedy in any what they see fit. They're watching a wrestling performance as a paying fan.

Therefore, the laws of comedy wouldn't apply to this fan at this time.

To your second point, I disagree that people are trying to have it both ways. The scientific reality is that trans people are born as trans people. It's not a choice. I think that's where the gap in understanding lies for most people.


----------



## Driver79 (Sep 19, 2021)

Botchy SinCara said:


> View attachment 113656


Anyone who supports this or thinks this is morally allowable is crazy. This is literally one step up from that episode of Seinfeld where Kramer is doing karate with children.

It also exposes this person as bad faith actor, in that no self respecting athlete would ever commit to competing on these terms. Like I said, this is completely about validating this person's identity and nothing else.


----------



## A PG Attitude (Nov 5, 2012)

notthatkindamark said:


> I just thought "she" was an extremely ugly, extremely large, hyper-aggressive woman and now we all find out it was a man after all. AEW should be embarrassed.


People like you are beyond help.


----------



## Mustard (Sep 18, 2021)

Jim Cornette is right. People shouldn't have the right not to be offended.


----------



## IronMan8 (Dec 25, 2015)

Botchy SinCara said:


> View attachment 113656
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Your argument applies to competitive sports, which is a more complicated and nuanced topic that I can appreciate the need for exceptions with.

However, Nyla isn't hurting people as a matter of fact, and the reason she isn't hurting people is because wrestling is a performance, like movies.

Would your argument apply to trained male and female actors in fight scenes of Hollywood movies?


----------



## Mister Abigail (May 22, 2014)

Anyway, time to bow out. If you’re going to be a shitty person, you’re going to be a shitty person. I can’t change people. I’m tired of trying.


----------



## Driver79 (Sep 19, 2021)

IronMan8 said:


> I agree that humour is all or nothing, and it has to be all.
> 
> Should this sign be protected by the laws of comedy?
> *
> ...


So then certainly you could see where someone like Jim Cornette is coming from, who lived during a time where wrestling shows were more than just a "performance" and if heel wrestlers were getting that kind of disrespect from fans it meant that they were doing their job.


----------



## IronMan8 (Dec 25, 2015)

Driver79 said:


> Anyone who supports this or thinks this is morally allowable is crazy. This is literally one step up from that episode of Seinfeld where Kramer is doing karate with children.
> 
> It also exposes this person as bad faith actor, in that no self respecting athlete would ever commit to competing on these terms. Like I said, this is completely about validating this person's identity and nothing else.


Have you ever seen a movie in which actors perform a fight scene?


----------



## Driver79 (Sep 19, 2021)

IronMan8 said:


> Have you ever seen a movie in which actors perform a fight scene?


Not following.


----------



## IronMan8 (Dec 25, 2015)

Driver79 said:


> So then certainly you could see where someone like Jim Cornette is coming from, who lived during a time where wrestling shows were more than just a "performance" and if heel wrestlers were getting that kind of disrespect from fans it meant that they were doing their job.


I love Jim's stories about getting heat in the old days. I listen to both of his podcasts.

But wrestling was never a real competition sport in Jim's time, obviously, and while he views today's product as a form of comedy by comparison, that still doesn't mean the fan is participating in comedic entertainment and should be protected by the laws of comedy.


----------



## Botchy SinCara (Apr 24, 2013)

Next time be subtle ..bring a let's go Brandon sign for double the trigger


----------



## IronMan8 (Dec 25, 2015)

Driver79 said:


> Not following.


I'll copy and paste my post from the person I quoted just before you:

Your argument applies to competitive sports, which is a more complicated and nuanced topic that I can appreciate the need for exceptions with.

However, Nyla isn't hurting people as a matter of fact, and the reason she isn't hurting people is because wrestling is a performance, like movies.

Would your argument apply to trained male and female actors in fight scenes of Hollywood movies?


----------



## Driver79 (Sep 19, 2021)

IronMan8 said:


> I love Jim's stories about getting heat in the old days. I listen to both of his podcasts.
> 
> But wrestling was never a real competition sport in Jim's time, obviously, and while he views today's product as a form of comedy by comparison, that still doesn't mean the fan is participating in comedic entertainment and should be protected by the laws of comedy.


Well if we are to believe Jim's stories then these guys were hearing crazy shit from fans all the time. Death threats, threats of violence, vile insults, objects being thrown at them, etc.

I know that it not the state of the industry now, so the same rules do not apply, but I can appreciate where Cornette is coming from and I think he is only highlighting this story because he wants to illustrate how far the industry has fallen. Because wrestling was undeniably better when the fans were that invested.


----------



## IronMan8 (Dec 25, 2015)

Botchy SinCara said:


> Next time be subtle ..bring a let's go Brandon sign for double the trigger


I've taken a considerable amount of time to reply to people in this topic, but several important facts have yet to be responded to by anybody.

Are you choosing to ignore those facts, don't have faith I'll be respectful in response, or something else?



Driver79 said:


> Well if we are to believe Jim's stories then these guys were hearing crazy shit from fans all the time. Death threats, threats of violence, vile insults, objects being thrown at them, etc.
> 
> I know that it not the state of the industry now, so the same rules do not apply, but I can appreciate where Cornette is coming from and I think he is only highlighting this story because he wants to illustrate how far the industry has fallen. Because wrestling was undeniably better when the fans were that invested.


I agree with your point here, but fan investment doesn't depend on racism, etc., to happen.

Therefore, it's an unrelated topic so it doesn't apply here.


----------



## Mutant God (Sep 9, 2015)

Botchy SinCara said:


> Next time be subtle ..bring a let's go Brandon sign for double the trigger


Then I would be offended of thinking someone actually cheering on Brandon Cutler lol


----------



## Driver79 (Sep 19, 2021)

IronMan8 said:


> I agree with your point here, but fan investment doesn't depend on racism, etc., to happen.
> 
> Therefore, it's an unrelated topic so it doesn't apply here.


It does though. Plenty of wrestlers throughout history have leaned into an ethnic identity either so that they could get booed or so they could get cheered. Today you would be accused of being a stereotype, whether you are face or a heel.

The wrestling audience, and the country as a whole, is totally up it's own ass.


----------



## Botchy SinCara (Apr 24, 2013)

Mutant God said:


> Then I would be offended of thinking someone actually cheering on Brandon Cutler lol



3x the trigger lol


----------



## genghis hank (Jun 27, 2014)

Dickhead1990 said:


> It's a meat pie in old UK English. Still on the market too, though they're processed shite. Then there's the name...
> 
> View attachment 113657


Aye. I used to smoke up to 3 years ago, and would always refer to a cigarette as a f*g.

If you’re using the word as the fan with the sign did, then obviously it’s malicious, but there are many other less offensive uses of the word. Unlike the n word, which only has one meaning and is always racist. The idea that the words are suddenly equal in offensiveness is an unwelcome American export to the rest of the English-speaking world.


----------



## DRose1994 (Nov 12, 2020)

I don’t agree with Cornette’s commentary and here’s why: there’s a marked difference between fans shouting at and hurling expletives toward a heel wrestler that’s got them worked up and coming to a show with the intention of disrespecting someone based on your personal view of their gender/sex. It’s entirely different. What’s more, is when you double down on that idea by sitting front row with a fully inappropriate sign, visible on national TV — then it becomes even more of an issue.


----------



## Dickhead1990 (Aug 31, 2016)

genghis hank said:


> Aye. I used to smoke up to 3 years ago, and would always refer to a cigarette as a f*g.
> 
> If you’re using the word as the fan with the sign did, then obviously it’s malicious, but there are many other less offensive uses of the word. Unlike the n word, which only has one meaning and is always racist. The idea that the words are suddenly equal in offensiveness is an unwelcome American export to the rest of the English-speaking world.


Everyone still calls them (cigarettes) **** as far as I can see. I've always called them ciggies as I always thought it sounded weird.

But you're right, context is key.

To put this into perspective, WWE used to eject people for writing TNA or wearing other company's merch.


----------



## IronMan8 (Dec 25, 2015)

Rozzop said:


> A transgender person is no more born a transgender person than a schizophrenic is born a toaster.


Brain scans prove trans women have female brains, not male brains.

You're factually wrong.

Your choice if you choose to ignore the facts or not.



Driver79 said:


> It does though. Plenty of wrestlers throughout history have leaned into an ethnic identity either so that they could get booed or so they could get cheered. Today you would be accused of being a stereotype, whether you are face or a heel.
> 
> The wrestling audience, and the country as a whole, is totally up it's own ass.


Stereotyping, such as Jinder Mahal's run, is a different thing to imposing false claims of reality that degrade a group of people.

Honestly, I think people just aren't aware they're making false claims about reality. They think they're making true claims about reality when it comes to trans people and "biology".

However, the typical male wrestling fan's understanding of biology is "I have a penis and my mother has a vagina, so that's that". Meanwhile, trans people are biologically different from birth.

I hope you understand my point, because so far you haven't been addressing the specific facts that I'm making the effort to put forward for you.

Are you the kind of person who addresses specific facts in conversation? That's what I believe in above all else.

Free discussion and exchange of facts to determine reality.



Swan-San said:


> It is rude and unecessary to say as it's not Nyla's fault to have gender dysphoria, but doesn't warrant getting kicked out for being rude. Nyla is a male, but society makes it so it's ok to be the opposite sex.. however that doesn't mean it makes any sense whatsoever nor should it be the case. It's ok in a sense here because it's pretend fighting, but even still, it puts me off and I can't take Nyla serious, ruins the womens division for me.


Your understanding is wrong. Trans people are biologically different from birth, it's not a choice.

A similar situation occurred in recent history.

A few decades ago the church believed that being gay was a choice. The church used to have programs to make gay people straight. It didn't work... because it's genetically determined from birth. It's not an arbitrary choice that society "allows" people to have.

But that's okay - most people don't understand this topic. I'm not wanting any negativity towards you. Basically, I see a person saying "gravity doesn't exist" and I'm trying to show them gravity does exist.

I hate the politicisation of this topic too, so I'm not surprised a lot of people instinctively feel the way you do.

It takes time for society to accept new facts about reality. Billions of people still follow religion hundreds of years after science began. It takes time.


----------



## HBK Styles Ospreay (Jan 15, 2020)

Botchy SinCara said:


> Better watch out mods will ban you if you don't word your comments just right about Nyla
> 
> I'm fine with trans people ..be you but when it comes to sports and stuff men play with men and women play with women ..there is a reason we separated sports ..for example two of the top women tennis players got their butts handed to them by some out of shape guy who smoked who was at the bottom list of male players
> 
> may be fake but sooner or later nyla will seriously hurt someone


Nyla isn't going to hurt anyone just bc she's transgender.

Also for the FUCKING LOVE OF CHRIST stop using the words male/man and female/woman interchangeablely! If you check your dictionary you will find they don't mean the same thing, nor have they ever... As a transwoman I was not born female, but I'm just as much a woman as an lady that bothered to go on a date with you.


----------



## Brodus Clay (Jan 6, 2012)

Guy was a troll and probably did this to get a drawn of him in a miniature of a Corny video, hope he doesnt get it.


----------



## Stellar (May 30, 2016)

The person with the sign clearly was trying to be an ass. Not reasonable at all. Don't be like that person in public, regardless of what you believe. There is a difference between making a sign that goes along with the show and making a sign just to go out of their way to be a jerk to someone.

Cornette is being Cornette. His opinion doesn't have much value anymore when he starts talking about "today sure isn't like the good old days" because he just reminds everyone that he is stuck in the past.


----------



## Klitschko (May 24, 2020)

HBK Styles Ospreay said:


> As a transwoman I was not born female, but I'm just as much a woman as an lady that bothered to go on a date with you.


Depends If you got a dick between your legs or not. Depends If you can get pregnant. Depends If you have to be on a ton of stuff to lower your testosterone. Transwomen and biological women are not the same at the end of the day, and I mean that with respect to trans folks and what they go through.


----------



## Ameer Patel (May 30, 2019)

I thought it was funny, I hate this PC/Woke world we live in


----------



## Botchy SinCara (Apr 24, 2013)

HBK Styles Ospreay said:


> Nyla isn't going to hurt anyone just bc she's transgender.
> 
> Also for the FUCKING LOVE OF CHRIST stop using the words male/man and female/woman interchangeablely! If you check your dictionary you will find they don't mean the same thing, nor have they ever... As a transwoman I was not born female, but I'm just as much a woman as an lady that bothered to go on a date with you.


Ok my dude


----------



## HBK Styles Ospreay (Jan 15, 2020)

IronMan8 said:


> Transphobic jokes are in exactly the same category as racist jokes.
> 
> Bigoted signs are on a different level to any subjectively rude sign that would fit into the slippery slope argument you're trying to make.
> 
> ...


Thank you for being supportive and being one of the more intelligent people on here. Being Trans (or homosexual for that matter) isn't in our DNA though. Its due to exposure to abnormal hormone levels during key periods of fetal brain development. I.e. I'm a trans-woman because early in my mother's pregnancy with me, she had an estrogen spike which caused my brain to develop as that of a female's. There is a book called "Our Stolen Future" all about the 'interesting' things hormones and hormone-mimics can do, definitely worth a read...


----------



## CM Buck (Sep 2, 2012)

Botchy SinCara said:


> Ok my dude


What a fantastic hill to die on you absolute dumb bigoted cunt. 

@HBK Styles Ospreay I understand your anger but please don't feed the trolls. Report them don't insult them. I understand why this bothers but Insulting outside of rants is not permitted.

@ireekofawesumnes we aren't fucking soft. We just understand that we have members who are transgender. You may insult whoever you want in real life, hell be racist or whatever the fuck you want to be in real life but we ask you to keep your immature jokes or Insults to yourself and treat others how you want to be treated here

@Rozzop Same to you. Please be respectful to others you never know who you might hurt. 

@yeahright2 come on bro you're smarter than what you said. I shit on Nyla all the time she's worthless. But it's got nothing to do with who she is as a performer.


----------



## MarkOfAllMarks (Apr 7, 2018)

I mean good. Any kind of derogatory insults whether it be racial, sexual orientation, transphobic should be treated seriously. Look I'm a Christian guy so I don't exactly agree with that lifestyle (trans people) but I would never intentionally say something to disrespect them or insult them. These should not be tolerated and he should've been kicked out.


----------



## GTL2 (Sep 1, 2016)

This guy's a dick. Wouldn't have thrown him out though


----------



## La Parka (Oct 28, 2008)

This thread is gonna end so many posters stay at WF.


----------



## Hotdiggity11 (Aug 24, 2006)

My solution: Get Nyla off TV. It’s the perfect remedy.


----------



## the44boz (Apr 29, 2014)

Prosper said:


> Imagine buying a front row ticket and getting kicked out 45 minutes in just for the sake of trying to purposely hurt someone's feelings. People are pathetic.


Do you not remember the early days of RAW. Those signs were even worse and many of them directed towards Chyna


----------



## RapShepard (Jun 20, 2014)

LifeInCattleClass said:


> first off - Nyla gets this all the time / on twitter etc etc
> 
> she does not give a single fuck - so, the article writer can piss off with the 'offended' stuff
> 
> ...


Tbh I think it's important that folk that have those type of divisive opinions be open and loud about it. That way folk know exactly who and what they're dealing with and can act accordingly.


----------



## notthatkindamark (Sep 16, 2021)

AEW is a clown show.


----------



## floyd2386 (Sep 28, 2010)

I'm kind of trying to wrap my head around the intent of the sign. Is it supposed to be offensive toward Nyla, toward "that guy" or "that guy's" Dad? Also, would it have been more offensive or less offensive if it said Nyla was that guy's Mom?

I'm not trying to be a smartass or anything, there's a lot of different ways to look at this.


----------



## CM Buck (Sep 2, 2012)

@notthatkindamark stop trolling @the44boz read my post. Don't be bigoted


----------



## Razgriz (Jan 14, 2016)

the dude should have been thrown out for having such a shit joke. We get it. You have one fucking joke


----------



## JerryMark (May 7, 2016)

love jim but he's kinda been heat poisoned from the old days. he's been repeatedly supportive of the lgbt community.

regardless, you have that on the hard camera of national tv show anyway.


----------



## IronMan8 (Dec 25, 2015)

Klitschko said:


> Depends If you got a dick between your legs or not. Depends If you can get pregnant. Depends If you have to be on a ton of stuff to lower your testosterone. Transwomen and biological women are not the same at the end of the day, and I mean that with respect to trans folks and what they go through.


I'm happy to respectfully respond. I know that usually you'll just get character assassinations or concealed moral high horse remarks that don't actually think about where you're coming from. So... this post is not that!

To your point (in your words) that "trans women and biological women are not the same", yes, that's correct. Let's continue this logic and follow-up with a second statement:

Would you agree with the statement "trans women and biological men are not the same"?

If you do agree that trans women are not the same as _either_ "biological men or women", then to be consistent, you're committed to a 3rd category of gender. Agree? Therefore, you're already committed to the idea that there's more than two categories for gender. 

That means we're now on the broader concept of how to accurately group people together. That's hard to do. Why? Because at the end of the day, every single individual human being is different from one another to some extent. We're all mostly similar, but slightly different. So we find common ways to group people. Lots of ways. And yes, most people do fit into the "man" or "woman" groupings. But of the billions of unique humans in this world, you can't classify 100% of them into the arbitrarily chosen groupings of "man" or "woman". This is biological fact.

You're probably already thinking that a major problem with grouping people into categories is if the categorical boundaries are too unique, you'll end up with 1000's of unique categories, and then what's the point of grouping them, right? So there _is_ a practical component to grouping people, even if it means simplifying things so the group category doesn't perfectly describe them. Thus, there is a practical component to grouping people in simplified terms as just Man or Woman.

Are you with me on that point?

On the other hand, it turns out this oversimplification encourages society to view trans people as either "men" or "women" who just made a random choice to behave in a way they can't relate with. That leads to negative ideas about the character of trans people. That leads to treating trans people differently, for the worse. The result? Needless suffering. For what gain? For a more simplified, practical way to group people by gender. 

That means we're trying to figure out how to group people into as few categories as possible, but at the same time, we don't want to categorise a bunch of people incorrectly, especially if categorising them incorrectly encourages people to believe misconceptions about them. Are you with me?

I like to remove emotion from arguments as much as possible, so let's consider this as a basic mathematical equation of the gains of easier categorisations vs the increase in needless suffering. There's a lot to unpack here, so if something doesn't resonate with you at first, please do re-read it and question me on why I might be wrong about something, and either I'll be wrong about reality and change my mind, or you'll be wrong about reality and change your mind. That's the goal of discourse.

Now, you're thinking about this topic from the mathematical equation perspective of easier categories vs needless suffering. Is this helpful? Most of the time, it's just society telling you "this is what you need to think" and there's no clear reason provided to you as to why you should alter your understanding of reality for something that sounds pretty stupid on the surface when you look down as you go pee. 

So I think it's pretty normal to ask questions when you hear something completely different to what you've ever known. I've just introduced the idea of problems with grouping people, the suffering that can result, and asked you to consider that balance like it's a mathematical equation.

All considered, you seem accepting of the fact that trans women are different to biological males, and therefore trans women are not the same as biological males choosing to become a woman on a whim. If you're a male, then trans women are different to you, Nyla is different to you, and Nyla is different to the majority of people if you're fixating on gender. 

She's similar to the majority in most other ways, though. It's only if you view her through the lens of gender from a position of ignorance that she seems different. 

Ignorant signs at a wrestling show encourage more ignorance, and for more people in society to define her by the one thing that doesn't easily allow her to be categorised into a group. _And_, to view her non-simplistic grouping reality as a negative thing about her character, with the implication being that she's like a typical biological male who randomly woke up one day and decided to act like a woman out of sheer choice. That implication causes suffering. That implication makes a false claim about reality. That implication is inconsistent with biological reality merely because people are trying to use language to help them simplify things... 

So, at the core of all of this, I'm not even asking you to care about someone else's feelings or anything like that. The idea here is that you're currently part of a group of people who haven't yet realised that they're fundamentally wrong about the biological reality of the world around us, and that misunderstanding ultimately perpetuates needless suffering. Sorry for the long post.

Merry Christmas.



HBK Styles Ospreay said:


> Thank you for being supportive and being one of the more intelligent people on here. Being Trans (or homosexual for that matter) isn't in our DNA though. Its due to exposure to abnormal hormone levels during key periods of fetal brain development. I.e. I'm a trans-woman because early in my mother's pregnancy with me, she had an estrogen spike which caused my brain to develop as that of a female's. There is a book called "Our Stolen Future" all about the 'interesting' things hormones and hormone-mimics can do, definitely worth a read...


Thanks for this post. I'm sorry for the ignorance in this thread. I hate it. Eventually, history will view posters in this thread in a similar light to which people today might view flat earthers from a few centuries ago. In this thread, there are people who aren't clear about or willing to accept the new scientific facts of their time. The modern day flat earthers!

It's hard to find ways to get people thinking differently. I tried to use the idea of "trans from birth" as a simple way to get people re-thinking their own neutral stance of "man or woman from birth", but you're right, it's more complicated than that. It'll probably only become more complicated in the future, too. The science is discovering all kinds of ways that the environment can influence human development, and as collective knowledge grows, it will only become harder for people to dismiss the facts of reality. We can count on that, as this basic resistance to new knowledge happens time and time again as a common theme across all of human history...

Merry Christmas.


----------



## Seth Grimes (Jul 31, 2015)

For one, I don't understand how people can just say "issa joke dude", like yeah no shit, it can also be a joke to have signs that say "Sonny Kiss is a fa****t". There is a clear and obvious line between jokes and making statements, but trying to say that it is just a joke. I'm not the type to rage about it, because I don't think Chapelle was being transphobic with his jokes, so I'm all for free speech for the most part, but this guy is legit just saying with his sign "Nyla is a man", that's it. The whole joke is "Nyla is a man".



Botchy SinCara said:


> Better watch out mods will ban you if you don't word your comments just right about Nyla
> 
> I'm fine with trans people ..be you but when it comes to sports and stuff men play with men and women play with women ..there is a reason we separated sports ..for example two of the top women tennis players got their butts handed to them by some out of shape guy who smoked who was at the bottom list of male players
> 
> may be fake but sooner or later nyla will seriously hurt someone


There's a difference between a competitive sport and a performance sport.



Dickhead1990 said:


> It's a meat pie in old UK English. Still on the market too, though they're processed shite. Then there's the name...
> 
> View attachment 113657


I fucking hated them growing up. Mum used to make them all the time, got to the point I'd throw them out the window when she wasn't looking and pretended I ate them, ha



Mister Abigail said:


> Anyway, time to bow out. If you’re going to be a shitty person, you’re going to be a shitty person. I can’t change people. I’m tired of trying.


Wish you'd make up your mind on being a babyface or a heel, not long ago you were saying you'd put anti vaxxers in concentration camps, now you're talking about trying to change people for the better. The fuck?


----------



## Buffy The Vampire Slayer (May 31, 2011)

Good that fan deserved to get his ass kicked out of the building.


----------



## MonkasaurusRex (Jul 3, 2016)

Driver79 said:


> Not following.


Pro wrestling isn't a real competition, it's an act. Any comparisons to actual competitive sports aren't relevant.


----------



## CovidFan (Aug 19, 2020)

I think what some people (inc. Cornette) don't realize is that this wasn't trying to get under a heel/faces skin in a wrestling manner. It was straight up hate speech. As someone said a couple posts ago, dude deserved to have the living shit kicked out of him after being escorted outside. It takes no effort to be respectful to people.


----------



## -Slick- (Oct 21, 2021)

Don’t deliberately be an asshole to other people. If you are and you’re called out for it - don’t bitch about it. ”I was being a cunt and it had consequences”. Like yeah, what did you think?


----------



## HBK Styles Ospreay (Jan 15, 2020)

Rozzop said:


> Why was he being a dick?
> 
> Are you telling me that Nyla herself or any trans person out there saw that and was deeply offended?
> 
> ...


1. Fuck you, yes it was offensive.
2. Mostly I laughed tho, b/c Nyla flipped that piece of shit off.
3. I don't understand how you can think that a hateful statement about something so fundamental to our existence, could ever qualify as a 'joke'. I like many kinds of comedy, but calling me a man is like calling a black person a FUCKING NAGGER. Its not funny, and if you do it to my face be prepared to inhale my pepper spray...


----------



## Hangman (Feb 3, 2017)

Anyone else remember 'Roman is a walk pheasant?'

Signs are just banter.


----------



## HBK Styles Ospreay (Jan 15, 2020)

Botchy SinCara said:


> Ok my dude


Enjoy your ban.

And btw even when I had to pretend to be a man, I didn't qualify as a 'dude.' I was never a "stylish, fastidious city-dweller that never visits the countryside"


----------



## HBK Styles Ospreay (Jan 15, 2020)

The Slick said:


> Don’t deliberately be an asshole to other people. If you are and you’re called out for it - don’t bitch about it. ”I was being a cunt and it had consequences”. Like yeah, what did you think?


Yea, why is it that the "Golden Rule" is sooo easy to comprehend, yet sooo hard for so many to actually live by?


----------



## Ham and Egger (Dec 13, 2005)

I have no problem with them throwing him out. It was tasteless and shouldn't be tolerated, and this is coming from a person who has differing opinions on the trans issue, fuck that guy!


----------



## Rozzop (Aug 26, 2019)

HBK Styles Ospreay said:


> 1. Fuck you, yes it was offensive.
> 2. Mostly I laughed tho, b/c Nyla flipped that piece of shit off.
> 3. I don't understand how you can think that a hateful statement about something so fundamental to our existence, could ever qualify as a 'joke'. I like many kinds of comedy, but calling me a man is like calling a black person a FUCKING NAGGER. Its not funny, and if you do it to my face be prepared to inhale my pepper spray...


Then it is YOU with the issue and not society. 

You find it hurtful. 

I respect that. 

But you can't expect everybody else to think the same way that you do. The world doesn't work like that.


----------



## -Slick- (Oct 21, 2021)

HBK Styles Ospreay said:


> Yea, why is it that the "Golden Rule" is sooo easy to comprehend, yet sooo hard for so many to actually live by?


People like to put others down because they’re unhappy about themselves and their own lives and it makes them feel a little better for a short while. That is the main reason, no matter what they tell others and themselves.


----------



## Razgriz (Jan 14, 2016)

Botchy SinCara said:


> View attachment 113656
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Ludwig wasn't stealing time from any other woman... it's a small community college. Her team supported her.


Texas wrestler wanted to compete with the boys and wasn't allowed eventhough he is a boy. Texas was being transphobic... because of course.

Fallon Fox's record was 5 and 1. Means she lost to somebody. Breaking an orbital in a sport where you punch and kick at people's faces and skulls is pretty damn common.

I just typed in Orbital and MMA and this is the first article that popped up.









Common Training Injuries and How to Treat Them - Orbital Fracture - Fight Quality


You’re going hard in sparring, working with someone bigger than you to get ready for an upcoming fight. Or maybe you’re having the fight, with small gloves being swung hard back and forth. Suddenly your guard drops lower than it should as you throw a punch and you catch a counter hook right on...




fightquality.com






all of these are bad arguments.


----------



## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

RapShepard said:


> Tbh I think it's important that folk that have those type of divisive opinions be open and loud about it. That way folk know exactly who and what they're dealing with and can act accordingly.


yep, that is also true


----------



## yeahright2 (Feb 11, 2011)

Firefromthegods said:


> What a fantastic hill to die on you absolute dumb bigoted cunt.
> 
> @HBK Styles Ospreay I understand your anger but please don't feed the trolls. Report them don't insult them. I understand why this bothers but Insulting outside of rants is not permitted.
> 
> ...


I said sites.. I didn´t say _this one _. Although there was a bit of it when Nyla started in AEW. To me it looks like warnings are quicker when Nyla or Sonny are the topic rather than say.. Dwarf Dongsucker. That´s why I usually avoid those threads. I can´t write what I think without carefully weighing each word, just on the off-chance that someone is gonna be offended.

I´m used to anything goes as far as smart-ass comments or jokes, it´s the *intent *of the words, not the actual meaning. We don´t have problems playing Aerosmith "Dude looks like a lady" or Guns n´ Roses "One in a Million" just because they contain sentences that might offend someone.


----------



## Dickhead1990 (Aug 31, 2016)

Seth Grimes said:


> I fucking hated them growing up. Mum used to make them all the time, got to the point I'd throw them out the window when she wasn't looking and pretended I ate them, ha


I know right, they're awful. The generation that ate that would eat any old shit though (Spam, kidneys, tinned spaghetti hoops etc). It's a miracle that many of them are still alive!

I remember my family used to get them from a small butcher in Bath (sadly recently closed), where they claimed to make the best ones. They still tasted like arse!



MonkasaurusRex said:


> Pro wrestling isn't a real competition, it's an act. Any comparisons to actual competitive sports aren't relevant.


Exactly. If this were the Olympics, then we'd have a relevant conversation.


----------



## Ger (Jul 20, 2018)

floyd2386 said:


> I'm kind of trying to wrap my head around the intent of the sign. Is it supposed to be offensive toward Nyla, toward "that guy" or "that guy's" Dad? Also, would it have been more offensive or less offensive if it said Nyla was that guy's Mom?
> 
> I'm not trying to be a smartass or anything, there's a lot of different ways to look at this.


Meanwhile I would assume, that the guy was looking for trouble/attention at all costs. If another wrestler had been there, he had written something else to get attention and create reaction on that level. So I am not sure it makes sense to make a detailed analyse about the sign. Just my 2 cents.


----------



## Seth Grimes (Jul 31, 2015)

Dickhead1990 said:


> I know right, they're awful. The generation that ate that would eat any old shit though (Spam, kidneys, tinned spaghetti hoops etc). It's a miracle that many of them are still alive!
> 
> I remember my family used to get them from a small Butcher in Bath (sadly recently closed), where they claimed to make the best ones. They still tasted like arse!


Considering I'm from Bristol I'm starting to think this is a fucking west country thing haha


----------



## Dickhead1990 (Aug 31, 2016)

yeahright2 said:


> I said sites.. I didn´t say _this one _. Although there was a bit of it when Nyla started in AEW. To me it looks like warnings are quicker when Nyla or Sonny are the topic rather than say.. Dwarf Dongsucker. That´s why I usually avoid those threads. I can´t write what I think without carefully weighing each word, just on the off-chance that someone is gonna be offended.
> 
> I´m used to anything goes as far as smart-ass comments or jokes, it´s the *intent *of the words, not the actual meaning. We don´t have problems playing Aerosmith "Dude looks like a lady" or Guns n´ Roses "One in a Million" just because they contain sentences that might offend someone.


It really isn't hard not to offend people. Just ask yourself whether the person you're talking about would smack you one if you said it to their face. It's just basic manners and common sense really, something that's been lost in recent years.


----------



## Dickhead1990 (Aug 31, 2016)

Seth Grimes said:


> Considering I'm from Bristol I'm starting to think this is a fucking west country thing haha


Ooarr me babber! My family still technically live at a Bristol address, so they're not far from you.

They were very popular there, along with South Wales. I've never seen it myself. Both of my parents grew up there and only my dad used to eat them. I prefer local cider, Bath buns and Wookey Hole Cheddar around those parts personally. The ******* can just disappear off the menu!


----------



## yeahright2 (Feb 11, 2011)

Dickhead1990 said:


> It really isn't hard not to offend people. Just ask yourself whether the person you're talking about would smack you one if you said it to their face. It's just basic manners and common sense really, something that's been lost in recent years.


No. Because as I said, the people I normally talk to wouldn´t be offended. And in a one on one real time conversation with someone, I don´t have a filter. I say what I think at the moment.. Sometimes I say stuff without thinking, that´s called being a human.


----------



## Dickhead1990 (Aug 31, 2016)

yeahright2 said:


> No. Because as I said, the people I normally talk to wouldn´t be offended. And in a one on one real time conversation with someone, I don´t have a filter. I say what I think at the moment.. Sometimes I say stuff without thinking, that´s called being a human.


And how is that working out for you?


----------



## MonkasaurusRex (Jul 3, 2016)

Dickhead1990 said:


> And how is that working out for you?


Probably about the same as it works out for anyone else. If you are talking to people you know and who know you it can be interpreted based on that intimate relationship. When you just spout off without thinking to people you don't have a relationship with there is a far greater likelihood of today ching a wrong nerve especially when it's regarding sensitive social issues.


----------



## yeahright2 (Feb 11, 2011)

Dickhead1990 said:


> And how is that working out for you?


Working fine. 
Of course I don´t walk up to people and say "hey fa***t". There is a modicum of common sense.


----------



## Buhalovski (Jul 24, 2015)

I work in a vape shop, wonder how we are not cancelled yet


----------



## Dickhead1990 (Aug 31, 2016)

MonkasaurusRex said:


> Probably about the same as it works out for anyone else. If you are talking to people you know and who know you it can be interpreted based on that intimate relationship. When you just spout off without thinking to people you don't have a relationship with there is a far greater likelihood of today ching a wrong nerve especially when it's regarding sensitive social issues.





yeahright2 said:


> Working fine.
> Of course I don´t walk up to people and say "hey fa***t". There is a modicum of common sense.


So why is it okay for people to say that online, when they wouldn't in real life? 

What people say with their friends is always likely to be interpreted differently to complete strangers. I don't understand why we're under the impression that it's a new phenomenon to watch your tongue around new people.


----------



## Krin (Apr 8, 2018)

Anyone who got offended by the sign is a sensitive little bitch and Cornette is right. End of thread.


----------



## yeahright2 (Feb 11, 2011)

Dickhead1990 said:


> So why is it okay for people to say that online, when they wouldn't in real life?
> 
> What people say with their friends is always likely to be interpreted differently to complete strangers. I don't understand why we're under the impression that it's a new phenomenon to watch your tongue around new people.


You´re missing the finer details, which is the problem when a conversation goes online instead of IRL. Words written is usually taken literally, there´s no room for interpretation by looking at the facials, mannerisms etc of the guy writing something.
It´s nothing new to be polite, but in recent years it´s gone from polite to "I´m watching everything you say because I just wait for something to be offended by".


----------



## Dickhead1990 (Aug 31, 2016)

yeahright2 said:


> You´re missing the finer details, which is the problem when a conversation goes online instead of IRL. Words written is usually taken literally, there´s no room for interpretation by looking at the facials, mannerisms etc of the guy writing something.
> It´s nothing new to be polite, but in recent years it´s gone from polite to "I´m watching everything you say because I just wait for something to be offended by".


Or so people would have you believe. The majority of people can read for context.


----------



## MonkasaurusRex (Jul 3, 2016)

Dickhead1990 said:


> So why is it okay for people to say that online, when they wouldn't in real life?
> 
> What people say with their friends is always likely to be interpreted differently to complete strangers. I don't understand why we're under the impression that it's a new phenomenon to watch your tongue around new people.


I'm not sure that people think that politeness and courtesy are particularly new phenomenons I think that the anonymity and general lack of consequences that conversing online provides people causes them to indulge their base instincts more openly than conversing in person does.


----------



## Dickhead1990 (Aug 31, 2016)

MonkasaurusRex said:


> I'm not sure that people think that politeness and courtesy are particularly new phenomenons I think that the anonymity and general lack of consequences that conversing online provides people causes them to indulge their base instincts more openly than conversing in person does.


Then that's pretty much us in agreement here. Just don't be a dick anywhere, I think is the message here.


----------



## MonkasaurusRex (Jul 3, 2016)

No matter how hard you try somebody is probably going to think you're a dick may as well indulge in it a little bit. Preferably in a private setting among friends, of course.


----------



## CM Buck (Sep 2, 2012)

yeahright2 said:


> I said sites.. I didn´t say _this one _. Although there was a bit of it when Nyla started in AEW. To me it looks like warnings are quicker when Nyla or Sonny are the topic rather than say.. Dwarf Dongsucker. That´s why I usually avoid those threads. I can´t write what I think without carefully weighing each word, just on the off-chance that someone is gonna be offended.
> 
> I´m used to anything goes as far as smart-ass comments or jokes, it´s the *intent *of the words, not the actual meaning. We don´t have problems playing Aerosmith "Dude looks like a lady" or Guns n´ Roses "One in a Million" just because they contain sentences that might offend someone.


I don't care as long as it's shit they can't change or insults others in the process. 

For example you hate the Samoan bucks right? 

Jimmy is nothing but a Samoan spot monkey is good. Removing the word spot would be bad.


----------



## thisissting (Aug 14, 2018)

jobber81 said:


> Nyla Rose is that guy's dad? thats it?


That's what I was trying to work out. Id say thats pretty funny iv seen some way worse wrestling signs than that. In fact iv heard aew wrestlers say worse things to fans this year. MJF has said way worse.


----------



## DaSlacker (Feb 9, 2020)

Big business has gone politically correct and embracing of different life styles. Makes sense because when selling to the public it is stupid to reject potential customers. Plus everyone is scared of being sued and negative PR. Obviously there's a fine line to work with.

AEW has a strong media partner in AT&T, so won't want to be seen to encouraging anything against the conglomerates 'cultures and values'.


----------



## GothicBohemian (May 26, 2012)

If you don't see why that sign was inappropriate, it says a lot about you and what you believe. I'm not passing judgement based on this one topic, I'm just saying it broadcasts information about who you are. The same is true if you react by screaming and swearing at others when discussing it - we now know more about your personality than perhaps you wanted people to. 

If a company wants sponsors and media partners beyond a very specific demographic they can't have overtly hateful signs showing on camera. Political ones fall into the same category but with a wee bit more leeway. 

I like knowing who the assholes are, so by all means, make rude signs (or post like an unfiltered or overly sensitive idiot online).


----------



## Rozzop (Aug 26, 2019)

GothicBohemian said:


> If you don't see why that sign was inappropriate, it says a lot about you and what you believe. I'm not passing judgement based on this one topic, I'm just saying it broadcasts information about who you are. The same is true if you react by screaming and swearing at others when discussing it - we now know more about your personality than perhaps you wanted people to.
> 
> If a company wants sponsors and media partners beyond a very specific demographic they can't have overtly hateful signs showing on camera. Political ones fall into the same category but with a wee bit more leeway.
> 
> I like knowing who the assholes are, so by all means, make rude signs (or post like an unfiltered or overly sensitive idiot online).


I agree that you can't have a sign like that shown on TV due to sponsors and potential blowback. It's the times we live in. 

Maybe someone should go through all the old WWE footage and censor the "HBK is gay", "Chyna is a man" and "Xpac sucks" signs whilst we are at it. 

Or is it only considered hate speech when deemed appropriate? Like you can pick and choose to be offended? 

Like you can point to studies that show male and female brains are different whilst ignoring the studies that show they are the same? 

Like you can shut down anybody with a different view point, get on your high horse and condemn them for the people they are and the personality they have. 

It's the "I'm right, you're wrong" mentality. In the end no one is right.


----------



## Driver79 (Sep 19, 2021)

MonkasaurusRex said:


> Pro wrestling isn't a real competition, it's an act. Any comparisons to actual competitive sports aren't relevant.


It may not be real but at the end of the day you are still asking some fans to take a leap of faith. Unfortunately not everyone shares the same beliefs and not everyone is convinced that Nyla is an actual female. So when she is presented as such, they consider it an insult.


----------



## GothicBohemian (May 26, 2012)

Rozzop said:


> Maybe someone should go through all the old WWE footage and censor the "HBK is gay", "Chyna is a man" and "Xpac sucks" signs whilst we are at it.
> 
> Or is it only considered hate speech when deemed appropriate? Like you can pick and choose to be offended?


There is a difference between calling Chyna a man and calling Nyla a man. I assume I don't need to explain what that difference is.



Rozzop said:


> Like you can point to studies that show male and female brains are different whilst ignoring the studies that show they are the same?


I'm not the one who brought up studies on that. You don't know what my stance on trans identity may or may not be. 



Rozzop said:


> Like you can shut down anybody with a different view point, get on your high horse and condemn them for the people they are and the personality they have.


I feel ok about considering people who are deliberately hurtful towards others to be assholes. I can consider them to be assholes without throwing a tantrum and swearing at them too, and I consider the tantrum-throwers to be assholes as well. 



Rozzop said:


> It's the "I'm right, you're wrong" mentality. In the end no one is right.


No, that's not really how it works. There are grey areas in life where differences of opinion are meaningless, and then there are things like basic respect for the dignity of others and their right to exist without harassment or ridicule when they are doing nothing that impacts the lives of those around them. 
Insulting Nyla just for being who she is - wrong. 
Ejecting a fan for waving a sign that insults Nyla and other individuals while also making himself into a liability for AEW - right.


----------



## Kopros_The_Great (Jun 26, 2014)

Faggotsneedasafespace said:


> Men have been getting more weaker and feminine each decade, porn is destroying men. Men are way too feminine today, have too many simping, cuckolding men white knighting these ***** and even paedophiles. Mental illness such as gender confusion is trendy on these socialist platforms. Encouraging some retard to mutilate their body doesn't help, infact the suicide rate doesn't decline after surgery. As soon as these weak people disagree with you they will claim it's common sense without giving any reasonable argument except "it's the way it is now, deal with it insert insulting name". they're just gaslighting.
> 
> Political correctness won't last forever and all these weak ***** will crawl back under their rock or they'd get their nose/jaw broken. Ban me, it will not change my mind or others mind.


What scared you to such extent?


----------



## Driver79 (Sep 19, 2021)

GothicBohemian said:


> There is a difference between calling Chyna a man and calling Nyla a man. I assume I don't need to explain what that difference is.


Actually I would argue that it's far more insulting and demeaning to call someone like Chyna a man.

Or at the very least just as demeaning.


----------



## Kopros_The_Great (Jun 26, 2014)

Faggotsneedasafespace said:


> Yeah, not accepting something means I'm terrified. I'm literally shaking in my boots. It's disgusting.


They can't hurt you, really. It's all in your head.


----------



## CM Buck (Sep 2, 2012)

Faggotsneedasafespace said:


> I'm not the one encouraging these mentally ill people to mutilate themselves. I recommend they talk with a psychiatrist.


Says the guy who married his sister while cheating on her with his mother. Goodbye you dumb fuck


----------



## Kopros_The_Great (Jun 26, 2014)

Faggotsneedasafespace said:


> I'm not the one encouraging these mentally ill people to mutilate themselves. I recommend they talk with a psychiatrist.


There is ways to disapprove without being a hateful and condescending cunt you know.

I'm sorry that times move too fast for you, but man, can you suffer in silence, please? Your whining makes you look just as weak as you accuse others of being.


----------



## CM Buck (Sep 2, 2012)

Kopros_The_Great said:


> There is ways to disapprove without being a hateful and condescending cunt you know.
> 
> I'm sorry that times move too fast for you, but man, can you suffer in silence, please? Your whining makes you look just as weak as you blame others to be.


He is back in the trailer park now


----------



## Gaslightingfaggots (Dec 24, 2021)

Faggotsneedasafespace said:


> Men have been getting more weaker and feminine each decade, porn is destroying men. Men are way too feminine today, have too many simping, cuckolding men white knighting these ***** and even paedophiles. Mental illness such as gender confusion is trendy on these socialist platforms. Encouraging some retard to mutilate their body doesn't help, infact the suicide rate doesn't decline after surgery. As soon as these weak people disagree with you they will claim it's common sense without giving any reasonable argument except *"it's the way it is now, deal with it insert insulting name"*. they're just gaslighting.
> 
> Political correctness won't last forever and all these weak ***** will crawl back under their rock or they'd get their nose/jaw broken. Ban me, it will not change my mind or others mind.





Firefromthegods said:


> Says the guy who married his sister while cheating on her with his mother. Goodbye you dumb fuck


Way to prove my point, back to my trailer I go. Goodbye.


----------



## Rozzop (Aug 26, 2019)

GothicBohemian said:


> There is a difference between calling Chyna a man and calling Nyla a man. I assume I don't need to explain what that difference is.


What's the difference? 

There is no difference. I didnt know Chyna but let's assume she wouldn't want to be called a man any more so than Nyla does. 

But it's only offensive if you have gender reallignment surgery? By that logic both Chyna and Nyla are women so the sign is dumb on both counts. 

If I identified as a parrott and spent my days squawking hello and goodbye to people passing my cage does that give me any more right to be offended by a "parrotts are dumb" sign than a regular person?


----------



## Penta Club (Dec 24, 2021)

The guy is not worth talking about, he is vile and wants jailed for a disrespect like this.

Naughty list time.


----------



## CM Buck (Sep 2, 2012)

Rozzop said:


> What's the difference?
> 
> There is no difference. I didnt know Chyna but let's assume she wouldn't want to be called a man any more so than Nyla does.
> 
> ...


What part of we have transgender posters, be respectful do you not understand? Do you enjoy picking on others who are different? 

Keep your disrespectful opinions to yourself. Treat others the way you want to be treated


----------



## Rozzop (Aug 26, 2019)

Firefromthegods said:


> What part of we have transgender posters, be respectful do you not understand? Do you enjoy picking on others who are different?
> 
> Keep your disrespectful opinions to yourself. Treat others the way you want to be treated


Im not picking on nobody, that's the problem and thats why I continue replying.


----------



## NeilBrandon (Dec 24, 2021)

GothicBohemian said:


> If you don't see why that sign was inappropriate, it says a lot about you and what you believe. I'm not passing judgement based on this one topic, I'm just saying it broadcasts information about who you are. The same is true if you react by screaming and swearing at others when discussing it - we now know more about your personality than perhaps you wanted people to.
> 
> If a company wants sponsors and media partners beyond a very specific demographic they can't have overtly hateful signs showing on camera. Political ones fall into the same category but with a wee bit more leeway.
> 
> I like knowing who the assholes are, so by all means, make rude signs (or post like an unfiltered or overly sensitive idiot online).


That's cool and all, but I hope you get your ankles locked in a pair of medieval wooden stocks barefoot, and a wheel of feathers is placed in front of your bare soles and begins to rotate rapidly, tickling those afromentioned bare soles and causing you to EXPLODE with hysterical laughter! Thoughts?


----------



## kingfunkel (Aug 17, 2011)

Why did they kick him out? Just take the sign off him, maybe move him from camera view. Didn't think it was a massive issue. Are we really that soft now that everything offends everyone. 

Am I missing something? Did something happen with her? That makes it worse then a shit joke


----------



## $Dolladrew$ (Jun 15, 2020)

M1M2M3M4M5M6M7M8 said:


> Didn’t she once hurt Britt Baker?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


She slammed a girl and she landed on britt injuring her its not like nia Jax punching a girl in the face lol.


----------



## Crona (Mar 9, 2011)

Good ole WF, the mere mention of trans people gets some folks frothing at the mouth. That dude was sitting in the front row with blank paper and a marker, trying to get a reaction from the wrestlers. It's sad. "I can't say what I want because people might be offended" is such a boring copout for being a boring shitty person.


----------



## Nickademus_Eternal (Feb 24, 2014)

If y'all are mad at nyla then I know what time it is. You're on the downlow. So step out the closet and enjoy and live your true selves. It's ok to be gay. Just don't force that shit upon those who don't give a shit.


----------



## Razgriz (Jan 14, 2016)

The "Just don't force it on those who don't give a shit" line here is horseshit... Its a fucking copout. 

Are they trying to have sex with you?... then they're not forcing their homosexuality on you


----------



## PavelGaborik (Oct 30, 2015)

Razgriz said:


> The "Just don't force it on those who don't give a shit" line here is horseshit... Its a fucking copout.
> 
> Are they trying to have sex with you?... then they're not forcing their homosexuality on you


Depends on the context. I can understand that particular line being used if you're a female being forced to compete against a biological male in a sports competition for example.


----------



## Razgriz (Jan 14, 2016)

Luckily.. it's been shown that HRT after a couple of years does show that those who are "biologically" male do perform like other women. 

In fact at that point they're not "biologically" male anymore.


----------



## TheDraw (Jun 27, 2019)

Get a large crowd of people and there's always gonna be quite a few idiots in that mix as well.


----------



## HBK Styles Ospreay (Jan 15, 2020)

Rozzop said:


> Then it is YOU with the issue and not society.
> 
> You find it hurtful.
> 
> ...


I don't give a fuck how anyone else thinks especially someone Ive never even met! Im not sitting around devoting bits of my time worrying about other people's opinions. But keep your shit to yourself, I don't go around holding up huge signs about the types of people I hate... Its called the Golden Rule, learn it!


----------



## Driver79 (Sep 19, 2021)

HBK Styles Ospreay said:


> Nyla isn't going to hurt anyone just bc she's transgender.
> 
> Also for the FUCKING LOVE OF CHRIST stop using the words male/man and female/woman interchangeablely! If you check your dictionary you will find they don't mean the same thing, nor have they ever... As a transwoman I was not born female, but I'm just as much a woman as an lady that bothered to go on a date with you.


Hey I saw you disliked some of my posts, I didn't mean to offend you. I was only speaking my truth. I obviously have different core beliefs from you but I totally respect you. I think this fan was being a huge asshole and I am not upset that they kicked him out. 

Now as far as your argument is concerned, you can't really put your faith in the dictionary or hold it up as some holy authority because they are still making changes to it as we speak. Words and definitions that are relevant to this discussion have been re-edited throughout the years.

Let me you ask you this, you claim that you were born male but that you are a woman correct? Okay, well at least we can agree that you were born male then. Obviously then where we disagree is how we choose to define the word woman.

Can you please define for us what it means to be a woman?


----------



## floyd2386 (Sep 28, 2010)

thisissting said:


> That's what I was trying to work out. Id say thats pretty funny iv seen some way worse wrestling signs than that. In fact iv heard aew wrestlers say worse things to fans this year. MJF has said way worse.


I'm trying to work it out too. I mean if his intent was to insult/offend Nyla, why go with that? Seems more like an insult/jab/joke to the guy next to him and/or his dad than something directed to Nyla specifically?


----------



## Rozzop (Aug 26, 2019)

HBK Styles Ospreay said:


> I don't give a fuck how anyone else thinks especially someone Ive never even met! Im not sitting around devoting bits of my time worrying about other people's opinions. But keep your shit to yourself, I don't go around holding up huge signs about the types of people I hate... Its called the Golden Rule, learn it!


My bone of contention was it wasn't hate speech. 

Im sure you have differing views with others on themes such as religion or politics or whatever. 

What I dislike is the notion that everybody has to think the same way. 

Have a great Christmas, all the best.


----------



## Zappers (Mar 1, 2013)

Here's my question:

Is what was written on the sign technically possible? I'm not judging if it's bad taste or offensive(that's subjective), I'm just asking the question. Becasue if it's possible. Then the guy got thrown out for a actual possibility. LOL


----------



## Razgriz (Jan 14, 2016)

Zappers said:


> Here's my question:
> 
> Is what was written on the sign technically possible? I'm not judging if it's bad taste or offensive(that's subjective), I'm just asking the question. Becasue if it's possible. Then the guy got thrown out for a actual possibility. LOL


Well seeing as Nyla is a woman. Then the sign should have "Nyla is that guy's Mom" 

So, no not actual possibilty.


----------



## Zappers (Mar 1, 2013)

Razgriz said:


> Well seeing as Nyla is a woman. Then the sign should have "Nyla is that guy's Mom"
> 
> So, no not actual possibilty.



Yeah. Nyla is 39 years old. When exactly did Nyla get surgery(if she did)? 20(or even further) years ago Nyla could of have had a kid. Could have donated to a sperm bank, could have adopted a child, plenty of possibilities.

Again, not judging Nyla. Just interesting. And interesting that nobody really knows any of this information, but yet quick to judge, defend, accuse, attack Nyla, that guy, AEW, or anybody with an opinion.

Again. Is that sign possible or not?


----------



## Yukoncornelius (Mar 12, 2021)

If Nyla doesn't put her transgender stuff in her wrestling character then fans shouldn't be involved in bashing people based on their personal decisions.


----------



## BlueEyedDevil (Dec 26, 2019)

I have a neighbor next door that is a Persian fella. He let me know one day he identified himself as Caucasian. I internally scratched my head then said, "Sure." I have the same policy with trans folks. I may feel biology determines gender but for the sake of politeness I refer to the person in the gender they identify with.

At my wedding I met a person that I wasn't sure of. I asked my wife, "Male or female?", just to avoid any issues. She said he's a gay guy so I shook his hand and slapped him on the shoulder as a "hello".


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## Razgriz (Jan 14, 2016)

Well...caucasian in addition to being heavily racist. Never specifically referred itself to "white"


----------



## thisissting (Aug 14, 2018)

GothicBohemian said:


> If you don't see why that sign was inappropriate, it says a lot about you and what you believe. I'm not passing judgement based on this one topic, I'm just saying it broadcasts information about who you are. The same is true if you react by screaming and swearing at others when discussing it - we now know more about your personality than perhaps you wanted people to.
> 
> If a company wants sponsors and media partners beyond a very specific demographic they can't have overtly hateful signs showing on camera. Political ones fall into the same category but with a wee bit more leeway.
> 
> I like knowing who the assholes are, so by all means, make rude signs (or post like an unfiltered or overly sensitive idiot online).


Blimey if your easily offended don't go back and watch attitude era reruns or listen to guys like Scotty steiner baiting the crowd. This isn't overly offensive compared to some of stuff mjf has said on the mic.


----------



## Razgriz (Jan 14, 2016)

There actually is a lot of cringy bullshit during the attitude era that I could live without...

Such as DX in blackface...

Was built around baiting the crowd... honestly no one needed to see that


----------



## Razgriz (Jan 14, 2016)

Of what I see MJF tends to either get cheap heat by dissing a town... or use personal attacks that are character based. 

Hasn't gone after a protected class really


----------



## Germanys Own (Apr 9, 2021)

Who cares?!? Deal with it, Rose...


----------



## HBK Styles Ospreay (Jan 15, 2020)

Rozzop said:


> No, she has always been a woman, even when she was a man. She could never be a dad, only a mom.
> 
> Are you not following?


I know you're just trying to be a funny fuck, but Nyla nor myself were never "Men." We were incorrectly labelled male at birth due to our genitalia. Nyla already had her Gender Confirmation Surgery anyway from what I've read (thats her business anyway).

My wife and I had twin daughters 6 years ago. They have always referred to me as Mommy, thankfully.


----------



## IronMan8 (Dec 25, 2015)

Rozzop said:


> Im not picking on nobody, that's the problem and thats why I continue replying.


You're just like a flat earther. 

Totally ignoring the science and wishing that what you see on your horizon is all that exists.

Do you realise that's you or have you never seriously studied the science?


----------



## IronMan8 (Dec 25, 2015)

Germanys Own said:


> Who cares?!? Deal with it, Rose...


Another flat earther type of person.

The world isn't flat, buddy. 

Learn about modern science before you walk around acting like the earth is flat because that's all you've seen so far.


----------



## IronMan8 (Dec 25, 2015)

Zappers said:


> Yeah. Nyla is 39 years old. When exactly did Nyla get surgery(if she did)? 20(or even further) years ago Nyla could of have had a kid. Could have donated to a sperm bank, could have adopted a child, plenty of possibilities.
> 
> Again, not judging Nyla. Just interesting. And interesting that nobody really knows any of this information, but yet quick to judge, defend, accuse, attack Nyla, that guy, AEW, or anybody with an opinion.
> 
> Again. Is that sign possible or not?


Of course the sign is "possible", but the reason it was held up was because the flat earther type of person who held it up thought it was funny because it contradicted their false understanding of reality.

All kinds of atypical differences and changes can happen as humans develop in the womb.

There's actually several independent "checks" the body goes through when determining gender. It's not a single switch at a single point in time. Do you know anything about it?

Things don't always go the same for everybody.

If something disrupts the typical development process in a specific area that affects expression of gender, then that person is not the same as typical man or a typical woman.

This is a different example that doesn't apply to trans people, but just to show the basic concept of XX or XY isn't universal - people can be born with XXY or XXXY or even XXXXY sex chromosomes and it changes their body and brain.

People can be exposed to spikes in hormones at sensitive time periods that change the course of their body's development.

You're just being ignorant if you think everybody is either a man or a woman and anybody who exists otherwise must be crazy and just choosing to live a lifestyle that would feel weird if you did it yourself because it _would_ feel weird if you did it yourself because you are _different_ to real trans women.


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## PhenomenalOne11 (Oct 2, 2016)

The guy is a cunt for being transphobic, but Nyla is also a cunt for being ableist and saying that the guy being in a wheelchair is punishment by God, fuck the two of them. 

Neither party look good.


----------



## Nothing Finer (Apr 12, 2017)

IronMan8 said:


> Of course the sign is "possible", but the reason it was held up was because the flat earther type of person who held it up thought it was funny because it contradicted their false understanding of reality.
> 
> All kinds of atypical differences and changes can happen as humans develop in the womb.
> 
> ...


Is any of that chromosome stuff relevant here? I haven't seen anything that suggests Nyla Rose is an intersex person.

Have you ever thought about how intersex people feel about you using them as a prop in your argument?


----------



## IronMan8 (Dec 25, 2015)

Nothing Finer said:


> Is any of that chromosome stuff relevant here? I haven't seen anything that suggests Nyla Rose is an intersex person.
> 
> Have you ever thought about how intersex people feel about you using them as a prop in your argument?


I had already edited to add clarification, but you were too quick haha. No it's not, but I wasn't applying that idea to trans people as it's a different point, I just wanted to disprove a basic idea some ignorant hold that all people are either a man or a woman with an XY or XX sex chromosomes, as I think that's the basic assumption most people seem to hold.

It might be easier for people to understand the topic when they realise it's obviously not a dichotomous thing.


----------



## Nothing Finer (Apr 12, 2017)

IronMan8 said:


> I had already edited to add clarification, but you were too quick haha. No it's not, but I wasn't applying that idea to trans people as it's a different point, I just wanted to disprove a basic idea some ignorant hold that all people are either a man or a woman with an XY or XX sex chromosomes, as I think that's the basic assumption most people seem to hold.
> 
> It might be easier for people to understand the topic when they realise it's obviously not a dichotomous thing.


If you think a small minority of people having DSDs will change anybody's mind on this then you are crazy.


----------



## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

Rozzop said:


> I agree that you can't have a sign like that shown on TV due to sponsors and potential blowback. It's the times we live in.
> 
> Maybe someone should go through all the old WWE footage and censor the "HBK is gay", "Chyna is a man" and "Xpac sucks" signs whilst we are at it.
> 
> ...


no, in the end a wrestling show crowd sign is not the place for the argument of any which way / especially in this case as its not part of Nyla’s character but her personal life. It has as much business being on a sign as ‘Sammy wants to rape Sasha’

signs has even less characters than twitter and is even more of a hot take

just use the ‘don’t be an asshole compared to current social standards’ method and ‘be kind to each other’ as the general rule of thumb and everybody will be ok


----------



## Bit Bitterson (Sep 18, 2020)

I only have two thoughts on this; neither of which contribute to the discussion in any meaningful way;

1) I thought the sign was a bit edgy.

2) Nyla is the best man to woman transgender I’ve ever seen. 

And she’s my favourite female in AEW.


----------



## Razgriz (Jan 14, 2016)

In endocrinology they


Nothing Finer said:


> Is any of that chromosome stuff relevant here? I haven't seen anything that suggests Nyla Rose is an intersex person.
> 
> Have you ever thought about how intersex people feel about you using them as a prop in your argument?


In endocrinology they have found that treating for the chromosomal structure rather than treating someone as just a man or just a woman has found better results in treating genetic problems.

It gives credence that sex is bimodal rather than binary. 

Also... some intersex are at the forefront of this







That said... gender and sex arent related. Gender being a social construct built by what society say is... x

There are full on other cultures that recognize third genders etc


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## Rozzop (Aug 26, 2019)

HBK Styles Ospreay said:


> I know you're just trying to be a funny fuck, but Nyla nor myself were never "Men." We were incorrectly labelled male at birth due to our genitalia. Nyla already had her Gender Confirmation Surgery anyway from what I've read (thats her business anyway).
> 
> My wife and I had twin daughters 6 years ago. They have always referred to me as Mommy, thankfully.


But can't you see the confusion for others, not trying to be funny just trying to understand.


----------



## Rozzop (Aug 26, 2019)

IronMan8 said:


> You're just like a flat earther.
> 
> Totally ignoring the science and wishing that what you see on your horizon is all that exists.
> 
> Do you realise that's you or have you never seriously studied the science?


Here we go. "Flat earther" "I'm right, your wrong" "My God exists yours doesn't" etc

How do you know what I have and haven't studied?

Isn't an embryo in the beginning stages female? That means every human that has ever existed started off female. 

I can point you to studies that show the brain is genderless. Just like the heart, liver and kidneys are genderless. 

Im sure you can point me to studies that show the brain is not genderless. 

Who is correct? 

The human brain is still very much misunderstood. Understanding of the mechanics is fluid and ongoing. Just look at the advances we have made in understanding mental illness in the last few decades. 

But no, you are right, you have all the answers and I believe the Earth is flat.


----------



## Yukoncornelius (Mar 12, 2021)

Transphobic and racist stuff should always stay out of wrestling and if they keep it out of storylines, which they should, then all fans that take terrible signs and talk trash about it should be booted. I could always see competing companies try to make other companies look bad by sending fake fans in to start crap if they’d let stuff like that occur.


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## What A Maneuver (Jun 16, 2013)

You gotta be a dedicated transphobic to go to battle defending a sign because "it's a joke". Did you actually laugh? Did you fall over giggling? It wasn't clever or witty, and was scribbled together with the purpose of trying to hurt someone, not inspire laughter. Nyla being transgendered is rarely mentioned on TV, so it's barely an aspect of her character, nor should it be attacked. 

Also lol at people policing what should and shouldn't hurt someone when the hate comment couldn't possibly affect them. Just stop.


----------



## Driver79 (Sep 19, 2021)

HBK Styles Ospreay said:


> I know you're just trying to be a funny fuck, but Nyla nor myself were never "Men." We were incorrectly labelled male at birth due to our genitalia. Nyla already had her Gender Confirmation Surgery anyway from what I've read (thats her business anyway).
> 
> My wife and I had twin daughters 6 years ago. They have always referred to me as Mommy, thankfully.


I'm confused now, I thought you said before that you knew were born male. It seems that a lot of the confusion other people have with what you're claiming stems from the fact that they aren't sure how you're defining certain terms.

Can you please define us for what it means to be a 'male' and what it means to be a 'woman'? I think that would really help clear things up. I mean I know how other people define them, but I'm having trouble understanding how you're defining them.

What is a 'male'? What is a 'woman'?


----------



## Rozzop (Aug 26, 2019)

Driver79 said:


> I'm confused now, I thought you said before that you knew were born male. It seems that a lot of the confusion other people have with what you're claiming stems from the fact that they aren't sure how you're defining certain terms.
> 
> Can you please define us for what it means to be a 'male' and what it means to be a 'woman'? I think that would really help clear things up. I mean I know how other people define them, but I'm having trouble understanding how you're defining them.
> 
> What is a 'male'? What is a 'woman'?


They make it up as they go along pal, no point in having this discussion.


----------



## HBK Styles Ospreay (Jan 15, 2020)

Driver79 said:


> I'm confused now, I thought you said before that you knew were born male. It seems that a lot of the confusion other people have with what you're claiming stems from the fact that they aren't sure how you're defining certain terms.
> 
> Can you please define us for what it means to be a 'male' and what it means to be a 'woman'? I think that would really help clear things up. I mean I know how other people define them, but I'm having trouble understanding how you're defining them.
> 
> What is a 'male'? What is a 'woman'?


'Male' would indicate that I was born with testes, and was able to produce sperm at one point. Likewise, female simply indicates a person born with ovaries & ova.

As far as what it means to be a woman, is a pretty personal question and I'd bet every woman would give a slightly different response... but its about how you act and think, not how you look. To me being a woman is about embracing my femininity, and being a good mother above all else.


----------



## HBK Styles Ospreay (Jan 15, 2020)

Rozzop said:


> They make it up as they go along pal, no point in having this discussion.


Yea or maybe its Xmas and Id rather spend time with the family that argue with strangers from the internet?!?

But one last question... Are you also a huge ass to Trans-men as well? Or is it just trans-women?


----------



## Rozzop (Aug 26, 2019)

HBK Styles Ospreay said:


> Yea or maybe its Xmas and Id rather spend time with the family that argue with strangers from the internet?!?
> 
> But one last question... Are you also a huge ass to Trans-men as well? Or is it just trans-women?


Im not a huge ass to either lol just want some clarity. 

Not everything is an attack on you. 

One minute you were born a man, the next born a woman, its really none of my business to be fair. 

Hope you are having a good day.


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## Driver79 (Sep 19, 2021)

HBK Styles Ospreay said:


> 'Male' would indicate that I was born with testes, and was able to produce sperm at one point. Likewise, female simply indicates a person born with ovaries & ova.
> 
> *As far as what it means to be a woman, is a pretty personal question and I'd bet every woman would give a slightly different response... but its about how you act and think, not how you look. To me being a woman is about embracing my femininity, and being a good mother above all else.*


With all due respect this is a very vague response. I think if you are going to admonish someone for using words incorrectly, I think you owe it to them to give them a more concrete definition. Especially considering that most people have associated the words 'woman' and 'female' their entire lives without much thought.

According to you being a woman is all about how you "act and think". Okay, well can you explain? Furthermore, can you explain what it means to be feminine? Can you be specific?


----------



## Razgriz (Jan 14, 2016)

simply put Male/Female are significantly scientific terms. They're meant to distinguish biological sense of the word. 

It's also why women get pissed when men refer themselves as "Females". Happens a lot in dating profiles. It becomes objectifying. 

Whereas "Women" and "Men" do more to represent the cultural and societal definitions of gender. As is why gender is seen as a social construct. Because what is Woman and Man tends to be defined by the social understanding and norms we define those genders


----------



## HBK Styles Ospreay (Jan 15, 2020)

Driver79 said:


> With all due respect this is a very vague response. I think if you are going to admonish someone for using words incorrectly, I think you owe it to them to give them a more concrete definition. Especially considering that most people have associated the words 'woman' and 'female' their entire lives without much thought.
> 
> According to you being a woman is all about how you "act and think". Okay, well can you explain? Furthermore, can you explain what it means to be feminine? Can you be specific?


It is not my fault that cis-gendered people use terms for biological sex and social gender interchangeably. They dont mean the same and never did, I cannot educate the entire world.

If you REALLLLLY need me to dumb it down for you 'Female' denotes someone with ovaries. 'Woman' denotes the social role that is typically filled by a human with ovaries and a female brain. I am a woman because I have a female brain and fill the same gender role as a cis-gendered woman (ovaries obviously not being needed to fulfill that social role).


----------



## Driver79 (Sep 19, 2021)

HBK Styles Ospreay said:


> It is not my fault that cis-gendered people use terms for biological sex and social gender interchangeably. They dont mean the same and never did, I cannot educate the entire world.
> 
> If you REALLLLLY need me to dumb it down for you 'Female' denotes someone with ovaries. 'Woman' denotes the social role that is typically filled by a human with ovaries and a female brain. I am a woman because I have a female brain and fill the same gender role as a cis-gendered woman (ovaries obviously not being needed to fulfill that social role).


But don't you see how you're contradicting yourself? On one hand you'll argue that typical gender roles are just social constructs, but on the other hand you'll argue that conforming to a typical gender role is what makes you a woman. Those two statements are in direct confrontation with one another. 

As for how the words 'woman' and 'female' are defined, you'll make the claim that those two words have never been synonymous yet literally every major dictionary publication states otherwise currently:









Definition of WOMAN


an adult female person; a woman belonging to a particular category (as by birth, residence, membership, or occupation) —usually used in combination; womankind… See the full definition




www.merriam-webster.com












Definition of woman | Dictionary.com


The definition of Woman is an adult female person. See additional meanings and similar words.




www.dictionary.com












Woman - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org





^ All of those sources choose to define a 'woman' as a female human. I understand that you have a different opinion, but surely you can understand why other people might disagree with you? If you're going to claim that those words never meant the same thing, can you tell us all how you arrived at that conclusion? 

Again just trying to make sense of your argument here. No one here wishes to offend you or hurt you, but you seem to have some pretty strong opinions of your own. If you are going to accuse people of being hateful towards you I think it would better serve us all if we got on the same page.


----------



## HBK Styles Ospreay (Jan 15, 2020)

Rozzop said:


> Im not a huge ass to either lol just want some clarity.
> 
> Not everything is an attack on you.
> 
> ...


You can't seem to understand... I was never a Man. I was assigned Male at birth based on the disgusting testicles, but I was always a trans-woman. It is not a requirement that you Transition in order to be transgender. Some transgendered people prefer to stay "hidden" since the world is as it is. Transitioning is just a way for us to feel more comfortable with ourselves, not some sort of requirement... Whether you change your attire, or take hormones, or have surgery those are personal choices.

Its as if you people think I acted like Man and one day decided to "become a Woman." I was wearing nightgowns and make-up with my Grandma when I was 4 years old ALREADY. Until my Grandpa found out... Its shit like that that scars us and makes us think we need to hide who we really are!


----------



## Driver79 (Sep 19, 2021)

HBK Styles Ospreay said:


> You can't seem to understand... I was never a Man. I was assigned Male at birth based on the disgusting testicles, but I was always a trans-woman. It is not a requirement that you Transition in order to be transgender. Some transgendered people prefer to stay "hidden" since the world is as it is. Transitioning is just a way for us to feel more comfortable with ourselves, not some sort of requirement... Whether you change your attire, or take hormones, or have surgery those are personal choices.
> 
> Its as if you people think I acted like Man and one day decided to "become a Woman." *I was wearing nightgowns and make-up with my Grandma when I was 4 years old ALREADY.* Until my Grandpa found out... Its shit like that that scars us and makes us think we need to hide who we really are!


So now wearing nightgowns and make-up is what makes you a woman? 

What would you say to someone who identifies as a woman and doesn't wear nightgowns? Someone who is more of a tomboy?


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## One Shed (Jan 7, 2014)

@HBK Styles Ospreay would you describe yourself as male (x and y chromosomes) and a woman (socially constructed gender)? Is that a fair statement?


----------



## HBK Styles Ospreay (Jan 15, 2020)

Driver79 said:


> But don't you see how you're contradicting yourself? *On one hand you'll argue that typical gender roles are just social constructs, but on the other hand you'll argue that conforming to a typical gender role is what makes you a woman*. Those two statements are in direct confrontation with one another.
> 
> As for how the words 'woman' and 'female' are defined, you'll make the claim that those two words have never been synonymous yet literally every major dictionary publication states otherwise currently:
> 
> ...


I only dumbed my "argument" down to that irony, since you claimed I owed you a better explain that the real one I had already given ya. I was trying to be nice an explain how I feel, don't like it there are plenty of websites to visit if you really wish to learn more...

But anyway, Im going to tuck Elly and Cally in for the night, Good-bye


----------



## HBK Styles Ospreay (Jan 15, 2020)

Two Sheds said:


> @HBK Styles Ospreay would you describe yourself as male (x and y chromosomes) and a woman (socially constructed gender)? Is that a fair statement?


Yes, that is correct. But thankfully after I finally have my Orchiectomy next summer, legally I will be considered female and can get a new passport etc 🥰.


----------



## Rozzop (Aug 26, 2019)

HBK Styles Ospreay said:


> You can't seem to understand... I was never a Man. I was assigned Male at birth based on the disgusting testicles, but I was always a trans-woman. It is not a requirement that you Transition in order to be transgender. Some transgendered people prefer to stay "hidden" since the world is as it is. Transitioning is just a way for us to feel more comfortable with ourselves, not some sort of requirement... Whether you change your attire, or take hormones, or have surgery those are personal choices.
> 
> Its as if you people think I acted like Man and one day decided to "become a Woman." I was wearing nightgowns and make-up with my Grandma when I was 4 years old ALREADY. Until my Grandpa found out... Its shit like that that scars us and makes us think we need to hide who we really are!


What is your opinion on gender dysphoria? 

This stuff genuinely interests me. I just want to learn more. 

The studies I have read indicate the brain is genderless. No such thing as a male or female brain. There are some differences in male and females brains but none that determine sex.

That's why I struggle with the idea that the brain determines a person's birth sex. 

However it is very plastic at a young age. It picks up and changes due to certain environmental factors - such as your story with your grandma. 

Im glad you don't have to hide who you are anymore. Life's too short to be unhappy but I'm sure you don't need a stranger on the Internet telling you that.


----------



## Driver79 (Sep 19, 2021)

HBK Styles Ospreay said:


> I only dumbed my "argument" down to that irony, since you claimed I owed you a better explain that the real one I had already given ya. I was trying to be nice an explain how I feel, don't like it there are plenty of websites to visit if you really wish to learn more...
> 
> But anyway, Im going to tuck Elly and Cally in for the night, Good-bye


I just think it's odd that you choose to define 'woman' based on traditional gender roles, while every modern feminist has been trying to do the exact opposite. If anything today's feminists are trying harder than ever to create distance from those traditional gender roles, and if you told them that wearing make-up is what defines a woman... they would probably not appreciate that.

Also... men tuck their children into bed too.


----------



## Razgriz (Jan 14, 2016)

Driver79 said:


> But don't you see how you're contradicting yourself? On one hand you'll argue that typical gender roles are just social constructs, but on the other hand you'll argue that conforming to a typical gender role is what makes you a woman. Those two statements are in direct confrontation with one another.
> 
> As for how the words 'woman' and 'female' are defined, you'll make the claim that those two words have never been synonymous yet literally every major dictionary publication states otherwise currently:
> 
> ...



Dictionary definitions are largely the worst place to use in arguments when dealing with social issues. Or by use of the words in science too. There tends to be more nuance than what the dictionary can provide.

Let me point to the word "Theory" for example. The use of the word in the dictionary is totally not the word used in a scientific sense. Pointing to the dictionary for definition is akin to Christians when they dispute "evolution" and say that it's "only a theory"

Calling gender a social construct doesn't deny that at this time it's something that society believes in. It's just an acknowledgement. Given that society chooses to impose a certain expectation of genders, the side effect to that is the adherence to what role one's mind/body/nature is determined. It's why gender is a spectrum and also not binary. 

It's why one will choose non binary. Or one will choose Androgynous.


----------



## Razgriz (Jan 14, 2016)

Driver79 said:


> I just think it's odd that you choose to define 'woman' based on traditional gender roles, while every modern feminist has been trying to do the exact opposite. If anything today's feminists are trying harder than ever to create distance from those traditional gender roles, and if you told them that wearing make-up is what defines a woman... they would probably not appreciate that.
> 
> Also... men tuck their children into bed too.



Modern Feminism is about being able to have the freedom to choose how one feels about themselves. To some Feminism is about wearing makeup having 2 and a half kids and a single husband. To others it's about Ethical-Non Monogamy having sex with multiple partners. And wearing a mohawk. 

...aand also not being shamed for either.


----------



## Razgriz (Jan 14, 2016)

I should say that modern feminism also wants that for men as well. If you want to be jacked to the gills and like hunting and drinking PBR... that's totally cool. 

It should also be absolutely okay to be skinny as a rail and like skateboarding. 

Both people are men.


----------



## IronMan8 (Dec 25, 2015)

@Razgriz @Driver79 @Two Sheds 

I came back to this thread expecting to see things devolve, but I was pleasantly surprised by the respect and well-intended curiosity shown.

The best way for anyone to think about issues of racism, religion, sexual orientation, gender, etc is by becoming friends with someone in one of these groups so open conversation can happen more easily. It's cool to see.

I think one thing is often missed in this topic, and that's the general concept of limitations in language.

Over the last page of this thread, people have been asking each other to properly define various pre-existing words. 

The words were created first, then the science discovered new realities of the world that was never intended or captured by the original definitions of the pre-existing words.

The main solution by society has been to try and re-write the dictionary to fit these new discoveries.

But by just looking at the words, a lot of people think these definitions don't really make sense, because it does lead to contradictions with other words in normal use.

In all cases, this is a matter of how the language is too limited to fully capture what's happening in reality.

What is the purpose of a word? We could use a long sentence instead. But a single word can let us condense a larger idea into a single, short marker for the thing being communicated.

When you condense a broad concept such as sex _or_ gender, by the nature of the words and the thing those words aim to describe, we're simplifying things down and missing information in the process of that simplification. 

It might be wrong of me to say this, but I actually disagree with @HBK Styles Ospreay 's definitions above. I think she's trying to redefine old words in the same way society in general has tried to redefine them, but it's still a form of simplification that leads to missing information, and that leaves room for confusion. I see this all the time when the topic comes up in society. I don't think society has found a better solution, yet. So what I'm seeing in this thread is people find it confusing to redefine old words, and basically the outcome is everyone shrugs their shoulders and respectfully lives and let lives.

Is there a more effective way to use old words to capture new knowledge? Should new words be created?

What's more practical; accepting the flaws that come with redefining old words, or creating lots of new words whenever new knowledge becomes solidified? 

I don't have a solution, but for now, I think a greater awareness of the role of limitations in language in general might help more people who are seeing inconsistencies in the words realise that those inconsistencies don't extend to the actual concepts behind the words.

That's because the words aren't the important part, it's the actual concept and idea people have in their head. The fan's sign was an attack on the concept behind these imperfect words, so when you see people pushing back on the fan's actions, it's really not about any of these words. At the end of the day, it's just about allowing all people in society to be free to live the way they were born.

In conclusion, an overlooked aspect of this topic is the tendency for humans to form broader ideas based on simplified word definitions rather than new knowledge that isn't properly captured by everyday language. It's hard to say much about topics that lack good words to describe it. But always assume the best in people, because there usually isn't as much hostility behind those words as it seems. Sound like a familiar concept?


----------



## Driver79 (Sep 19, 2021)

Razgriz said:


> Calling gender a social construct doesn't deny that at this time it's something that society believes in. It's just an acknowledgement. Given that society chooses to impose a certain expectation of genders, the side effect to that is the adherence to what role one's mind/body/nature is determined. It's why gender is a spectrum and also not binary.


This sounds like a contradiction to me.

On one hand it's:
*"Traditional gender roles are just social constructs. Putting on makeup and wearing a dress has nothing to do with being a woman..."*

But on the other hand it's:
*"I feel like a woman inside because I like to put on makeup and wear a dress..."*


If you believe that gender is just a social construct, then that means the gender you choose for yourself is also a construct. If I am no more of a man because I enjoy football, then "she" is no more of a woman for liking makeup and dresses.




edit: And for the record I totally respect anyone who lives like this. If someone like this were to ask me to refer to them as 'she', I would. I love all people and respect them equally.


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## Razgriz (Jan 14, 2016)

It's "gender is a social construct, This is what society imposes, so this is where I fit"

It's not just about throwing on makeup and wearing a dress though. Though that may be one way of expression.

I know transgender women who present in a more masculine way. But they're very solidly women in the way one would interact with them.



Driver79 said:


> If you believe that gender is just a social construct, then that means the gender you choose for yourself is also a construct.


Certainly. But the construct is also imposed on society because that is what is largely viewed by society. Be it through patriarchal beliefs or what have you. The then response to that is adhering to a construct that society is imposing. "We require you to be man or woman"... "I think like a woman, my brain is structured like a woman, I enjoy feminine things, I express myself in a feminine way" and society is pressuring me to make that decision if I am woman or not. So I'm a woman.


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## Razgriz (Jan 14, 2016)

BTW I'm a Cis-Man... (Bisexual, but still)

I'm just around a lot of queer culture.


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## GTL2 (Sep 1, 2016)

Razgriz said:


> Certainly. But the construct is also imposed on society because that is what is largely viewed by society. Be it through patriarchal beliefs or what have you. The then response to that is adhering to a construct that society is imposing. "We require you to be man or woman"... "I think like a woman, my brain is structured like a woman, I enjoy feminine things, I express myself in a feminine way" and society is pressuring me to make that decision if I am woman or not. So I'm a woman.


This is where things get difficult. What are the characteristics/qualities that a trans person identifies with that cause them to identify as a man or woman? They are a pretty nebulous set of characteristics, and often stereotypes, imposed by the heteropatriarchal society. The state of being a woman turns out to be....behaving as men say they do. Is that the ultimate mansplain?


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## Rozzop (Aug 26, 2019)

IronMan8 said:


> @Razgriz @Driver79 @Two Sheds
> 
> I came back to this thread expecting to see things devolve, but I was pleasantly surprised by the respect and well-intended curiosity shown.
> 
> ...


You've said a lot of words there but said very little lol

Sometimes the simple explanation and the simple "words" are correct.

So we can make up a new word for people born with male genitalia but have a "female" brain or vice versa? That word can be "trans-sapien"

So the conversation goes like this:

"Here mate, are you a girl or a boy?"

"I identify as a girl. I was born trans-sapien"

"Ah OK, cool"

No confusion there whatsoever.

We can also make up a word that describes the difference between "male" "man" "female" and "woman" to the tran-sapiens.

Genderius for Male/Man
Genderoso for Woman/Female

"here mate, are you a boy or a girl?"

"I was born a genderius trans-sapien" 

"eh?" 

"I was born a genderius trans-sapien. I am a woman" 

"ah right, gotcha" 

We can also make up a term that describes following the train of thought that transgender brains are different. I won't call it pseudo-science, let's call it tran-science. 

"here mate, are you a boy or a girl" 

"according to tran-science I am a girl" 

"what?" 

"I was born a trans-sapien. I am a woman" 

"so you're a girl?" 

"no I am a genderoso woman" 

"okay cool" 

All of this for not wanting to hurt someone's feelings. 

Sometimes, just sometimes, a spade is a spade.


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## -Slick- (Oct 21, 2021)

Sterling Golden said:


> Now I understand why people were burning witches and doing other crazy things historically. The majority of people are followers who desperately want to be a part of the in-group, to the point that they will even pretend that men are women.
> 
> I'll soon be sent to the gulags for not believing in 40+ genders.
> 
> By the way, the distinction between sex and gender was created by the pedophile John Money. Please google him to find out what a sick guy he was.


That was a really bad analysis. And no you wont. Believe what you want, don’t be an asshole to others. It’s not very hard.


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## Strike Force (Sep 14, 2015)

The trans agenda is ridiculous nonsense, intellectually bankrupt bullshit riddled with contradictions that are completely divorced from science and reality. Our culture is overly sensitive and limp-wristed, and for some reason we've assigned value to someone being "offended" as if that should mean something, which it doesn't. And Nyla Rose sucks and is a biological man.

*BUT.*

If you have a problem with her performing in the AEW women's division, *you* are the problem. She's effectively an actress portraying a character. This is not competitive sports, where being a man gives her an unfair advantage. AEW could book her to lose in two minutes every week regardless of her biology. It's irrelevant. If you have a problem with Nyla being in AEW, you effectively believe no trans person should ever be allowed to participate in any form of acting or entertainment ever. Think about how silly that is.


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## Driver79 (Sep 19, 2021)

GTL2 said:


> This is where things get difficult. What are the characteristics/qualities that a trans person identifies with that cause them to identify as a man or woman? They are a pretty nebulous set of characteristics, and often stereotypes, imposed by the heteropatriarchal society. The state of being a woman turns out to be....behaving as men say they do. Is that the ultimate mansplain?


Exactly.

If this is the argument that transpeople and trans-activists are going to employ, then they have done a total 360 and are right back to agreeing with the "evil" patriarchy they claim to oppose.

_"Being a woman means having a predisposition to cook and clean and wear dresses. Being a woman means embracing feminine characteristics and feminine qualities. Being a woman means being good at nurturing..."_

^ Who said it best? Sexist bigot or modern day trans-activist?


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## Razgriz (Jan 14, 2016)

It's more to it than just being able to "put on a dress" though. Which is what i'm saying. "Being a woman is expressing myself how I see fit as a woman"


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## go stros (Feb 16, 2020)

how in the hell is this thread still going as easy as it is to get a thread locked and posted deleted by the mods in the AEW section?


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## La Parka (Oct 28, 2008)

Mutant God said:


> "Nyla Rose is this Guy's dad" seems harmless to me and Nyla should have just gone with it and said "yeah I am his and your daddy too" if she hasn't already


Wrestling fans have better comebacks than the wrestlers these days.


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## One Shed (Jan 7, 2014)

HarryWang said:


> OOOOOOHHHHHHHHHHHH NOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!! EARGHHHHH!!!! EARGHHHH!!!!! EARRRGGHHHHHHHH!!!!! EEARRRRGGGGGHHHHH!!!!!!! ALERT!! WE HAVE A SEVERE CASE OF DOUBLE STANDARD GOIN ON RIGHT HURR DAWG! SO AS A PRIVATELY OWNED ENTERPRISE, THEY DEEMED IT APPROPRIATE TO REMOVE THE UNRULY FAN, BUT WHEN I BAN @Chip Chipperson FOR SIMILAR BEHAVIOR ON A *PRIVATE SITE* IT'S A GRAAAAVE INJUSTICE. YOU CHIP BUTTLICKERS CONTINUE TO MAKE FOOLS OUT OF YOURSELVES EACH AND EVERY DAY!! PLATT NEEDS TO DO THE SITE AND SEND THIS ARROGANT PRICK OUTTA HERE ALREADY!!! DO WHAT'S RIGHT PLATT GOD DAMMIT, WE'RE DEPENDING ON YOU!!!!!!


Oh hey, the stalker is back. No one ever said a private site does not have the RIGHT to ban anyone they want for whatever reason. But if you want to build and maintain a level of trust with your posters, you need to actually enforce your own rules consistently and not ban people because you do not like them. Thankfully, your emotional banning was overturned, but sadly resulted in the rapid decline of your emotional stability. And clearly that is not improving over time.


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## HBK Styles Ospreay (Jan 15, 2020)

Strike Force said:


> The trans agenda is ridiculous nonsense, intellectually bankrupt bullshit riddled with contradictions that are completely divorced from science and reality. Our culture is overly sensitive and limp-wristed, and for some reason we've assigned value to someone being "offended" as if that should mean something, which it doesn't. And Nyla Rose sucks and is a biological man.
> 
> *BUT.*
> 
> If you have a problem with her performing in the AEW women's division, *you* are the problem. She's effectively an actress portraying a character. This is not competitive sports, where being a man gives her an unfair advantage. AEW could book her to lose in two minutes every week regardless of her biology. It's irrelevant. If you have a problem with Nyla being in AEW, you effectively believe no trans person should ever be allowed to participate in any form of acting or entertainment ever. Think about how silly that is.


About what I'd expect coming from the mind of a republican. I will remember that people being offended shouldn't mean anything, the next time you throw a hissy fit b/c a rich athlete lost his job and his kid might have to transfer to a public school. GTFO you hypocritical moron.

BTW it is beyond laughable that you would use the words intellectually bankrupt or divorced from science, when in fact I'm a Biologist with multiple degrees in my field! So... 😂😂😂


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## Klitschko (May 24, 2020)

I get that it's a sensitive subject, but why is @HBK Styles Ospreay allowed to insult people non stop in this whole thread @Firefromthegods? You have already warned them earlier.


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## HBK Styles Ospreay (Jan 15, 2020)

Klitschko said:


> I get that it's a sensitive subject, but why is @HBK Styles Ospreay allowed to insult people non stop in this whole thread @Firefromthegods? You have already warned them earlier.


What insults have I used? I've been making sure NOT to say what I really feel


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## IronMan8 (Dec 25, 2015)

Rozzop said:


> You've said a lot of words there but said very little lol
> 
> Sometimes the simple explanation and the simple "words" are correct.
> 
> ...


Actually no, it seems you've misunderstood the concepts I introduced to the discussion.

Honestly, please re-read my post. I'm confident you'll find it worth your time.

Your understanding of reality is factually incorrect. I can try to provide you with the information, but it's up to you to decide if you even want to make the effort of trying to build a more accurate worldview.

Some people don't want to think about things and that's fine too, I'm just putting facts forwards for you to think about, and in the quoted post, you haven't demonstrated that you've thought about what I posted - so the ball's still in your court.


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## Klitschko (May 24, 2020)

.


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## Razgriz (Jan 14, 2016)

All I want to say at this point is that...

Research shows that generally accepting people for who they are and how they want to present themselves keeps people alive. The vaunted suicide rate amongst transgender individuals is large in part because people choose not to accept them. They've found that people who are in accepting environments tend to see less depression and anxiety. 

This is also pretty much backed up by pretty much all studies on the subject. 

In addition it's been shown that anxiety in transgender people (with those who do have anxiety etc) is largely alleviated by transitioning as well. 



Also a small story.. 

When I was In high school.. I pretty much remember on one hand like 5 openly gay individuals (for like 1400 students). And this small contingent just fucking hated everyone. If you tried to be nice to them, they were fucking mean to you. At this point in time, I was also an individual who got bullied a lot too. I basically played Magic: The Gathering with my nerd friends in the library and listened to Heavy Metal... Also I watched wrestling. This contingent also even hated my outcast self. 

I even attempted to be friends with them at a time. But they were just fucking angry. They even belittled me and bullied me as well. You're talking about a kid, where someone reported me to the principal's office because they thought I was going to shoot up the school. And here they are some angry hateful gay people.

But then think about the flipside... You have like 4 other people in the entire school to relate to. Imagine hearing gay slurs at you constantly. Imagine just everyone telling you that you're a piece of shit. Imagine maybe your family might not accept you. Imagine possibly getting your ass beat at anytime and be almost acceptable. 

I should also say that I live in the Evangelical mecca. Colorado Springs. THere was at one time, Colorado called the "hate state". Homophobic slurs were uttered daily. Fuck, if you read the comments under when Polis announces anything here. There's open hate just saying they hate gay people.

You too would at some point get angry, you too would have disdain for people. Even people attempting to help you. Because it's it's own learned response.

SO what I'm saying is. Using people's pronouns. Acknowledging people how they are presented. Is not just a self serving thing for that individual. It's a form of civic respectability.


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## Rozzop (Aug 26, 2019)

IronMan8 said:


> Actually no, it seems you've misunderstood the concepts I introduced to the discussion.
> 
> Honestly, please re-read my post. I'm confident you'll find it worth your time.
> 
> ...


My understanding of reality is factually incorrect?

Well in that case the majority of human histories understanding of reality is factually incorrect, right?

In that case everybody is wrong, and you are correct...... In your mind.

How is my understanding of reality factually incorrect?

The fact we can invent words and meanings to things that science hasn't discovered yet? I've covered that.

Can you point me to studies that indicate trans brains are different? Yes of course you can.

Can I point you to studies that debunk those studies? Yes of course I can.

Who is correct? Your mind is made up, I'm on the fence. If you are so sure then it isn't up to me to convince you, it's up to you to convince me and all you've got so far is "your understanding of reality is factually incorrect" and some long winded mumbo jumbo about words and their meaning.


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## Strike Force (Sep 14, 2015)

HBK Styles Ospreay said:


> About what I'd expect coming from the mind of a republican. I will remember that people being offended shouldn't mean anything, the next time you throw a hissy fit b/c a rich athlete lost his job and his kid might have to transfer to a public school. GTFO you hypocritical moron.


I am neither a Republican, a hypocrite, nor a moron, little one. You, by contrast, seem to feel comfortable hurling insults without fear of rebuke. God, I love this place.


----------



## CM Buck (Sep 2, 2012)

Strike Force said:


> I am neither a Republican, a hypocrite, nor a moron, little one. You, by contrast, seem to feel comfortable hurling insults without fear of rebuke. God, I love this place.


She's not punished for it cause I figure you can easily counter a nickelodeon type insult like moron pretty comfortably but I'm monitoring this thread closely


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## Rozzop (Aug 26, 2019)

IronMan8 said:


> Actually no, it seems you've misunderstood the concepts I introduced to the discussion.
> 
> Honestly, please re-read my post. I'm confident you'll find it worth your time.
> 
> ...











Gene variants provide insight into brain, body incongruence in transgender


Some of the first biological evidence of the incongruence transgender individuals experience, because their brain indicates they are one sex and their body another, may have been found in estrogen receptor pathways in the brain of 30 transgender individuals.



www.sciencedaily.com





I mean, okay I can get on board with that. Sounds plausable. I'm no doctor or scientist but I can understand what the article is saying. Do I trust these doctors? Have they got an agenda? Science is constantly evolving, maybe next week they will publish a paper debunking this? 









The 'Pink and Blue Brain' Myth - Transgender Trend


Is it possible to have a female brain in a male body? Looking at the latest in brain research it seems that 'pink' and 'blue' brains are a myth.




www.transgendertrend.com





So what's this contradiction? Who's right? Who do I believe? Do any of these people know what they are talking about most of all you?


----------



## One Shed (Jan 7, 2014)

Firefromthegods said:


> She's not punished for it cause I figure you can easily counter a nickelodeon type insult like moron pretty comfortably but I'm monitoring this thread closely


The fact that this thread has been open for 13 pages and only one non-alt poster has been banned ranks as my #1 surprise of the year and it is December 27th.


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## CM Buck (Sep 2, 2012)

Two Sheds said:


> The fact that this thread has been open for 13 pages and only one non-alt poster has been banned ranks as my #1 surprise of the year and it is December 27th.


2 counting botchy. I've been deleting the majority of inflammatory posts.


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## One Shed (Jan 7, 2014)

Firefromthegods said:


> 2 counting botchy. I've been deleting the majority of inflammatory posts.


Even @Chrome popping up today to yell in all caps could not kill this thread. It should be up for a title soon.


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## Razgriz (Jan 14, 2016)

Rozzop said:


> The 'Pink and Blue Brain' Myth - Transgender Trend
> 
> 
> Is it possible to have a female brain in a male body? Looking at the latest in brain research it seems that 'pink' and 'blue' brains are a myth.
> ...



This one's not research though. It's just someone giving their opinion. Also on a rather biased site mind you.

If you wanted something a bit more neutral you might have linked this article that tends to be a bit more less biased









Researcher explores links between transgender brain and gender identity


Neuroscientists are pursuing new avenues in transgender research, including a possible link between brain structure and transgender identity.




news.usc.edu


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## Razgriz (Jan 14, 2016)

I'll take this article though which basically sums up my feelings on these studies









The Search for a ‘Cause’ of Transness Is Misguided


It can be well-intentioned, but it’s a dangerous path that leaves little room for a real understanding of gender and gender identity




www.scientificamerican.com


----------



## HBK Styles Ospreay (Jan 15, 2020)

Strike Force said:


> I am neither a Republican, a hypocrite, nor a moron, little one. You, by contrast, seem to feel comfortable hurling insults without fear of rebuke. God, I love this place.


No typically I only hurl insults when insulted 1st... You stating "The trans agenda is ridiculous nonsense, intellectually bankrupt bullshit riddled with contradictions that are completely divorced from science and reality" is an insult aimed at every trans person, not to mention every neurologist, psychologist, psychiatrist, etc that has actual evidence to back up what you want to pretend doesn't exist. Its whatevs tho, I'm done with this place anyway. Go brag to someone that actually cares about the alleged size of your penis, like you always do.


----------



## notthatkindamark (Sep 16, 2021)

A fat ugly dude beating up women for a living lol. 

You can't make this shit up.


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## Razgriz (Jan 14, 2016)

notthatkindamark said:


> A fat ugly dude beating up women for a living lol.
> 
> You can't make this shit up.


Maybe you should read the room a bit better


----------



## CM Buck (Sep 2, 2012)

notthatkindamark said:


> A fat ugly dude beating up women for a living lol.
> 
> You can't make this shit up.


OK I'm sick of your clown shit. Catch you next Monday homie

Actually you're a rejoiner/alt account, catch you never


----------



## Sterling Golden (Oct 18, 2021)

-Slick- said:


> That was a really bad analysis. And no you wont. Believe what you want, don’t be an asshole to others. It’s not very hard.


I identify as 7'4 , I am therefore a 7'4 male. If you disagree then you are an asshole.


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## CM Buck (Sep 2, 2012)

Sterling Golden said:


> I identify as 7'4 , I am therefore a 7'4 male. If you disagree then you are an asshole.


We get it you're close minded now shut up or be removed from the thread


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## Leviticus (May 1, 2020)

Free speech in the moment you step on someone else's property. For all intents and purposes, the arena is property of the company using it. So they have the right to enforce certain standards for people going to their shows especially people with signs that are going to be visible on television.

and if you read the fine print on the tickets when you buy them it clearly states that the Arenas or the companies will not tolerate racist or prejudiced signs, clothing, etc.


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## IronMan8 (Dec 25, 2015)

Rozzop said:


> My understanding of reality is factually incorrect?
> 
> Well in that case the majority of human histories understanding of reality is factually incorrect, right?


Yes, you are 100% correct about that.

The majority of human history is riddled with laughable misunderstandings about the nature of reality and those misunderstandings absolutely do continue to this day... and so does humanity's lack of self-awareness about how little we actually know about the world around us.

I mean, think about all the topics humans have been laughably wrong about just over the past few thousand years (let alone throughout the millions of years we've been evolving). We both would've been excluded from society if we said the earth was round until about 400 years ago, and even then, it took almost 100 years for that to change. Humans are stupid. We really are. And we're too stupid to realise how stupid we are. 

But this is such an obvious point to me that I won't even make the effort to provide any proper examples or an argument. I'll simply ask you to tell me if you disagree. My prediction is this will be an "aha!" moment for you and your perspective will shift in a click.




Rozzop said:


> Gene variants provide insight into brain, body incongruence in transgender
> 
> 
> Some of the first biological evidence of the incongruence transgender individuals experience, because their brain indicates they are one sex and their body another, may have been found in estrogen receptor pathways in the brain of 30 transgender individuals.
> ...


Excellent post. 

You've searched for information, found more than one source (the second one has an agenda, though), and raised legitimate questions about the process of figuring out what's true about the world.

You should always be skeptical about what any individual says, including those cited scientists or myself. You've correctly been skeptical of my claims, which aim to say something factual about reality. You're making me consider if my understanding is wrong, in whole or in part, and that helps me. I just want to know what's true. 

So to answer your questions:

1. Is there a contradiction between those sources? 

No, not in the science. If your assumption is a simplistic "male or female brain" and that's all you have to go by, then yes, it's a contradiction, but that view is an inadequate view that isn't true description of reality, because brains are _not_ A or B in that way. While everyone is slightly different, during development a trans woman could be exposed to varying combinations of testosterone, oestrogen, etc., and if they're born with testes, they will be exposed to elevated testosterone levels for a period of time after birth, which will shape their brains and bodies to some extent (I believe most of it happens in the womb, though). The second source is basically just saying there's a bit of a blend. It makes sense. The brain grows in the womb. It continues to be shaped after birth (plasticity). Maybe the area for "reading maps" grows just a little bit more in trans woman than cis women because trans woman were exposed to elevated testosterone levels during puberty? Or to use the out-dated, simplistic perspective, you might be able to think about it like a 90% female / 10% male brain (oversimplification). But it's more complicated than that. The brain is malleable, it grows, it rewires itself, etc. The second source is also intending to condense complex literature for public consumption, so do take into account the intended audience of the writer.

2. How do you trust science when it's constantly evolving?

Excellent question - this question is the main reason why I wanted to reply to your post. The answer requires a bit of a philosophical understanding of what "Science" is, which I'll attempt later. But to put it bluntly and directly, it depends on how new the information is, and how many scientists have contributed to the literature. In this case, there's already been 1000's of studies published over a couple of decades, with significant advances published over a decade ago, from a wide range of places around the world. Thus, if it _was_ biased or agenda-driven, we'd know by now in a general sense. The broad concept is therefore statistically true. But the finer details will receive more attention and you'll probably see more studies disproving X and Y later on. Usually, this means the end result is "A is true, but it turns out that X, Y, and Z are exceptions to what we previously thought we knew, so it's not as simple as just saying A". That's the direct answer. Maybe trans women are 10% better at reading maps than cis women. Some politically-charged interpretations of the science portray trans and cis women as absolutely identical in every way, but that's the kind of oversimplification that's bound to contradict reality. Those type of contradictions are created by irresponsibly simplifying science for the public. In my opinion, public communication of science has harmed science in recent years. But anyway, to properly answer your question, I'll say the following:

Science is a process. It's not one researcher, university, or country. It's an objective process that is self-correcting. It's simple; anyone can investigate reality and make a claim and then release their evidence to the public. Absolutely anybody in this world can verify that evidence for themselves. _You_ can test theories about air resistance and gravity. If you find a contradiction, you get to publish your evidence to prove the world wrong and there's nothing anybody can do about it. Over time, our collective knowledge is continuously improving, like chiselling a statue, as new ideas are introduced and false claims get rejected. New technology is a major part of that chiselling process, and technology has been improving faster and faster (look at computer chips). Be prepared to feel stupid when you get old, because a lot of what we think is true today will be proven wrong by the time we're old. Gender is obviously one of those things.

In this case, the original claim about reality was "all humans are either men or women". This was believed to be true in the caveman days, and remained the consensus until proven otherwise. We saw the discovery of genetics, DNA, sex chromosomes, and hard evidence of sex not being as simple as originally thought. New brain scan technology was invented. Brain scans discovered further contradictions of the "man or woman" claim that many people in society continue to hold. 

Humans remain laughably ignorant about our understanding of reality, but when it comes to this topic, the sheer volume and spread of studies over a fair amount of time now allows us to be confident about the general idea that trans women are definitely *not* men who decide to act like women like it's a lifestyle choice, which is the prevailing view some people still have. Using out-dated terminology (man/woman) based on the disproven theory about all humans being either men or women, my claim is that people today are using inadequate language to describe trans women as "women", when in reality, it is more complicated than that. 

However, those complications are only possible within the paradigm of a false, fundamental assumption about men and women that people continue to assume to be true when they're trying to make sense of the oversimplified, politically-charged news stories they're bombarded with about trans people in today's world. 

*Therefore, *for all intents and purposes, trans women should be thought about as being the same as cis women, and treated in society as such. However, it's also wise to be aware that there are minor differences. Brain scans demonstrate about a 90% similarity between trans brains and female brains, but that figure varies from person to person, and there's still a wealth of unknown, unique factors that could differ in development in the womb, so we should also be mindful of at least some minor differences between a trans woman and a cis woman without that knowledge leading to us misunderstanding the broader concept. 

Throughout all of human history, we have struggled to understand the diversity and complexity of the world around us. The concept of gender diversity is yet another in the long line of concepts at the mercy of human stupidity.


----------



## GTL2 (Sep 1, 2016)

IronMan8 said:


> Yes, you are 100% correct about that. The majority of human history is riddled with laughable misunderstandings about the nature of reality and those misunderstandings absolutely do continue to this day... and so does humanity's lack of self-awareness about how little we actually know about the world around us. I mean, think about all the topics humans have been laughably wrong about just over the past few thousand years (let alone throughout the millions of years we've been evolving). We both would've been excluded from society if we said the earth was round until about 400 years ago, and even then, it took almost 100 years for that to change. Humans are stupid. We really are. And we're too stupid to realise how stupid we are. But this is such an obvious point to me that I won't even make the effort to provide any proper examples or an argument. I'll simply ask you to tell me if you disagree. My prediction is this will be an "aha!" moment for you and your perspective will shift in a click. Excellent post. You've searched for information, found more than one source (the second one has an agenda, though), and raised legitimate questions about the process of figuring out what's true about the world. You should always be skeptical about what any individual says, including those cited scientists or myself. You've correctly been skeptical of my claims, which aim to say something factual about reality. You're making me consider if my understanding is wrong, in whole or in part, and that helps me. I just want to know what's true. So to answer your questions: 1. Is there a contradiction between those sources? No, not in the science. If your assumption is a simplistic "male or female brain" and that's all you have to go by, then yes, it's a contradiction, but that view is an inadequate view that isn't true description of reality, because brains are _not_ A or B in that way. While everyone is slightly different, during development a trans woman could be exposed to varying combinations of testosterone, oestrogen, etc., and if they're born with testes, they will be exposed to elevated testosterone levels for a period of time after birth, which will shape their brains and bodies to some extent (I believe most of it happens in the womb, though). The second source is basically just saying there's a bit of a blend. It makes sense. The brain grows in the womb. It continues to be shaped after birth (plasticity). Maybe the area for "reading maps" grows just a little bit more in trans woman than cis women because trans woman were exposed to elevated testosterone levels during puberty? Or to use the out-dated, simplistic perspective, you might be able to think about it like a 90% female / 10% male brain (oversimplification). But it's more complicated than that. The brain is malleable, it grows, it rewires itself, etc. The second source is also intending to condense complex literature for public consumption, so do take into account the intended audience of the writer. 2. How do you trust science when it's constantly evolving? Excellent question - this question is the main reason why I wanted to reply to your post. The answer requires a bit of a philosophical understanding of what "Science" is, which I'll attempt later. But to put it bluntly and directly, it depends on how new the information is, and how many scientists have contributed to the literature. In this case, there's already been 1000's of studies published over a couple of decades, with significant advances published over a decade ago, from a wide range of places around the world. Thus, if it _was_ biased or agenda-driven, we'd know by now in a general sense. The broad concept is therefore statistically true. But the finer details will receive more attention and you'll probably see more studies disproving X and Y later on. Usually, this means the end result is "A is true, but it turns out that X, Y, and Z are exceptions to what we previously thought we knew, so it's not as simple as just saying A". That's the direct answer. Maybe trans women are 10% better at reading maps than cis women. Some politically-charged interpretations of the science portray trans and cis women as absolutely identical in every way, but that's the kind of oversimplification that's bound to contradict reality. Those type of contradictions are created by irresponsibly simplifying science for the public. In my opinion, public communication of science has harmed science in recent years. But anyway, to properly answer your question, I'll say the following: Science is a process. It's not one researcher, university, or country. It's an objective process that is self-correcting. It's simple; anyone can investigate reality and make a claim and then release their evidence to the public. Absolutely anybody in this world can verify that evidence for themselves. _You_ can test theories about air resistance and gravity. If you find a contradiction, you get to publish your evidence to prove the world wrong and there's nothing anybody can do about it. Over time, our collective knowledge is continuously improving, like chiselling a statue, as new ideas are introduced and false claims get rejected. New technology is a major part of that chiselling process, and technology has been improving faster and faster (look at computer chips). Be prepared to feel stupid when you get old, because a lot of what we think is true today will be proven wrong by the time we're old. Gender is obviously one of those things. In this case, the original claim about reality was "all humans are either men or women". This was believed to be true in the caveman days, and remained the consensus until proven otherwise. We saw the discovery of genetics, DNA, sex chromosomes, and hard evidence of sex not being as simple as originally thought. New brain scan technology was invented. Brain scans discovered further contradictions of the "man or woman" claim that many people in society continue to hold. Humans remain laughably ignorant about our understanding of reality, but when it comes to this topic, the sheer volume and spread of studies over a fair amount of time now allows us to be confident about the general idea that trans women are definitely *not* men who decide to act like women like it's a lifestyle choice, which is the prevailing view some people still have. Using out-dated terminology (man/woman) based on the disproven theory about all humans being either men or women, my claim is that people today are using inadequate language to describe trans women as "women", when in reality, it is more complicated than that. However, those complications are only possible within the paradigm of a false, fundamental assumption about men and women that people continue to assume to be true when they're trying to make sense of the oversimplified, politically-charged news stories they're bombarded with about trans people in today's world. *Therefore, *for all intents and purposes, trans women should be thought about as being the same as cis women, and treated in society as such. However, it's also wise to be aware that there are minor differences. Brain scans demonstrate about a 90% similarity between trans brains and female brains, but that figure varies from person to person, and there's still a wealth of unknown, unique factors that could differ in development in the womb, so we should also be mindful of at least some minor differences between a trans woman and a cis woman without that knowledge leading to us misunderstanding the broader concept. Throughout all of human history, we have struggled to understand the diversity and complexity of the world around us. The concept of gender diversity is yet another in the long line of concepts at the mercy of human stupidity.


The problem with gender politics is that it feels a lot more like linguistic sleight-of-hand than it does science.

It has redefined the words "Man" and "Woman" from their existing sex-based definition (based on karyotype XX/XY*) to the new gender-based one. The word gender being repurposed from its original meaning in grammar books (referring to e.g. un/une in French or der/die/das in German) to have relevance to people.

OK, so much word-shuffling. The next part is where the problems arise.

Having taken the words "man" and "woman" fom their original meaning and applied them to gender, Gender politics asserts that rights and conventions that belonged to sex-based definitions of man/woman, now belong to them. Where incompatibility arises, gender-based definitions take priority.

So spaces hitherto reserved for women (based on sex) are now accessible to people self-defined as women based on gender. And women (defined by sex) whose rights have been impacted and don't like this should not have any say in the matter apparently.

(and btw, the earth was well-known to be round since ancient Greece and this would have been standard in medieval Europe).

*feel free to cite very rare edge cases like XXY or SRY translocations as some kind of counterevidence, I will be very unimpressed.


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## Rozzop (Aug 26, 2019)

IronMan8 said:


> The majority of human history is riddled with laughable misunderstandings about the nature of reality and those misunderstandings absolutely do continue to this day... and so does humanity's lack of self-awareness about how little we actually know about the world around us.


Correct. You've said it yourself. 

So in that case how is cherry picking scientific data that matches your opinion any better than the guy who believes the earth is flat? 

Scientists have proved themselves to be wrong many times over, especially regarding the brain which is still a very much misunderstood organ. 



IronMan8 said:


> I mean, think about all the topics humans have been laughably wrong about just over the past few thousand years (let alone throughout the millions of years we've been evolving). We both would've been excluded from society if we said the earth was round until about 400 years ago, and even then, it took almost 100 years for that to change. Humans are stupid. We really are. And we're too stupid to realise how stupid we are.


Again, correct. 

We have been wrong about countless theories over many subjects in the past and we will again in the future so what makes you so sure the scientists are spot on now? 



IronMan8 said:


> But this is such an obvious point to me that I won't even make the effort to provide any proper examples or an argument. I'll simply ask you to tell me if you disagree. My prediction is this will be an "aha!" moment


Have you taken off the biased glasses yet and had a eureka moment? 

I won't quote the rest because it is largely just your opinion. Which is fine. You are entitled to your opinion. But to state my understanding of the facts of reality is wrong, is not a fact, it is your opinion, your opinion which is based upon other peoples viewpoints.


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## Driver79 (Sep 19, 2021)

@IronMan8

Your arguments come across more nihilistic than anything, because if we are to subscribe to those beliefs then that would mean everything that has ever been constructed by human beings are meaningless. "Human beings are imperfect and not all knowing, therefore it is valid to question and deconstruct everything about them. Words and language are just social constructs invented by humans, therefore they don't truly mean anything."

There's only one problem though, and that's your double standard. On one hand words mean nothing and the agreed upon definitions we've all been taught since birth are incorrect, but on the other hand words can mean whatever you want them to mean in that particular moment based on your own specific feelings. In other word... "All definitions are wrong, but MY definitions are right."

Apparently the rest of us lack the wisdom to understand the nuances and the true meanings of these words, so we don't get to define them.


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## Razgriz (Jan 14, 2016)

GTL2 said:


> *feel free to cite very rare edge cases like XXY or SRY translocations as some kind of counterevidence, I will be very unimpressed.



All words are made up words though. So it stands to reason to update language as we use it. Is reason why Literally can mean figuratively.


*edge cases that amounts to 2 percent of the population.

That's like choosing not to believe red heads exist.


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## GTL2 (Sep 1, 2016)

Razgriz said:


> All words are made up words though. So it stands to reason to update language as we use it. Is reason why Literally can mean figuratively.
> 
> 
> *edge cases that amounts to 2 percent of the population.
> ...


Appropriating words in such a way that it materially alters the existing rights and lives of people is not simply updating language. Nyla can for example assert him/herself to be a dining table without issue - no problem with that. It doesn't affect the rights of others. 

Re edge cases - why is saying that something is rare, in any way choosing to believe that it does not exist? You are simply making up statements and running away with your own self-contradictory assumptions

that 2% figure is very largely made up of people with non classical adrenal hyperplasia - a condition many would not include as intersex and very distinct from the chromosomal disorders mentioned as examples. It's well under 1% in reality


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## GTL2 (Sep 1, 2016)

Razgriz said:


> All words are made up words though. So it stands to reason to update language as we use it. Is reason why Literally can mean figuratively.
> 
> 
> *edge cases that amounts to 2 percent of the population.
> ...


Could you tell us how you define "man" and "woman"?


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## Dolorian (Oct 5, 2015)

Don’t quite agree with Cornett’s general take here. Sure, there is something to be said about some people being overly sensitive these days but just because some actions and behaviors were admitted among the crowd during, say, the attitude era, it doesn’t follows that they should be admitted today or that they were right to begin with. Even back then the company would confiscate signs for various reasons and even eject fans from the venue just like they do today. 

You could say the sign was uncharitable and apparently that same fan was being obnoxious and was trolling with several signs so he was taken care of.

But honestly and speaking more generally, the term transphobic/transphobia is thrown around too much to the point that anything that does not represents complete acceptance and approval of normalizing transgenderism is labeled as such with the aim to shut down any differing view. In many cases even the affirmation of the reality of biological sex is called transphobic. There is a clear ideological, rather postmodernist I’d say, push behind this that entails a subversion of reality in order to give primacy to the self-perception of the individual. I don’t think having a disagreement with this is necessarily an instance of irrational or illogical fear of this particular thing (which is what a phobia properly defined actually is).


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## IronMan8 (Dec 25, 2015)

Driver79 said:


> @IronMan8
> 
> Your arguments come across more nihilistic than anything, because if we are to subscribe to those beliefs then that would mean everything that has ever been constructed by human beings are meaningless. "Human beings are imperfect and not all knowing, therefore it is valid to question and deconstruct everything about them. Words and language are just social constructs invented by humans, therefore they don't truly mean anything."
> 
> ...


I would love to be wrong, because then I get to improve my understanding of the world.

Unfortunately, your first paragraph is 100% accurate. Words and language _are_ an imperfect human invention. Moreover, human history is riddled with shifting definitions and interpretations of words. Even the sounds we use to verbalise these words commonly change over time.

Therefore, I believe your basic assumptions about the long-term stability of language should be reconsidered.

Do you agree with the above?

Second, you've then generalised my "imperfect language" argument to include all words. However, not all words are subject to the possibility of change.

For example, the word "two" can't mean whatever someone wants it to mean, it will always mean two.

Likewise, the word "day" can't mean whatever someone wants it to mean in general use, it means day, as in the opposite to night. But what is the specific definition of "day", and has this always been the same? Have humans always defined the beginning of the day the same exact way? How long does it last? Is it the same in every country? Time of year? Have the specifics ever changed since the word was first invented? Humans later discovered that a day on Mars is not the same as a day on Earth. Therefore, humans invented a new word to describe a day on Mars (a "sol", off memory). Language updated in light of new knowledge. General use of the word "day" is clear as day, but on the fringes of definition it's less clear, so it has needed to be updated in step with new knowledge.

Specificity is another category to consider. An example of specificity is Children learning to use the word "red" to describe the colour "magenta" or the word "green" to describe "turquoise". General words are commonly used to describe something more specific that's close, but not identical.

Male, female, man, woman, trans, intersex, etc., are words that make sense to be prone to changing definitions over time as knowledge advances. These words are not like the word "two". They refer to a complex gradient of expressions of genetics, at the very least. Of course the definitions on the fringes of these words will update with new knowledge. Wouldn't you _expect_ that to happen? 

I spent a lot of time on my previous post and so far no element of my argument has been disproven. If what I'm saying is true, then I hope you come to the same conclusion, but if I'm wrong, then I hope you help me improve my understanding. Until then, I will continue to believe that I have a correct understanding of this issue.


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## IronMan8 (Dec 25, 2015)

Rozzop said:


> Correct. You've said it yourself.
> 
> So in that case how is cherry picking scientific data that matches your opinion any better than the guy who believes the earth is flat?
> 
> ...


"Science has been wrong before, so how can we trust it now?"

I don't know where to begin. Honestly, this is a fundamental topic. I suggest reading about the scientific method, meta analyses, and perhaps statistics in science.

Technically, I've already answered this in the post you quoted. Statistics. We can take confidence from the high number of studies, the spread of countries contributing to the literature, the quality of data (statistically verifiable by anyone), the time lapsed, etc.

When you say "the scientists", you're talking about a diverse spread of independent people from various countries across the world, they're not like groups of people with shared beliefs such as "the republicans" or "the priests".

If a researcher in Japan is wrong, then a researcher in Canada can disprove them.

I'm disappointed in your response after a quality post beforehand that I spent about two hours replying.


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## Driver79 (Sep 19, 2021)

IronMan8 said:


> I would love to be wrong, because then I get to improve my understanding of the world.
> 
> Unfortunately, your first paragraph is 100% accurate. Words and language _are_ an imperfect human invention. Moreover, human history is riddled with shifting definitions and interpretations of words. Even the sounds we use to verbalise these words commonly change over time.
> 
> ...


You keep insisting that words like 'man' and 'woman' deserve to be repurposed and redefined, but you still have yet to actually define them for us.

All we know is how you choose NOT to define them. Apparently they DO NOT have anything to do with biological sex, they DO NOT mean what it says in the dictionary, and they DO NOT mean what 99.9% of people think they mean.

Okay, so what DO these words mean? This is your chance to clear the air.


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## DHR (Dec 30, 2021)

Edgy joke. What if the person was not removed ...


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## Rozzop (Aug 26, 2019)

IronMan8 said:


> "Science has been wrong before, so how can we trust it now?"
> 
> I don't know where to begin. Honestly, this is a fundamental topic. I suggest reading about the scientific method, meta analyses, and perhaps statistics in science.
> 
> ...


But the current science could be wrong and get disproved at a later date?

I mean, you could say that about anything I suppose.

An apple is an apple. A group of "scientists" are not going to come along and determine that its really a tree.

But say that studies show that the chromosomes and cells that make up an apple seed are the the same biological chromosomes and cells that make up a root of a tree and then the seed changes course and the cells morph into a different biological entity then you could maybe argue that an apple is really a tree?

Or is it?

Unless we change what the meaning of the words "tree" and "apple" mean. Even then, to most people a tree would be a tree and an apple an apple.

So you've gone your entire life calling an apple an apple and now a selection of apple eaters are coming into a grocery store and asking the cashier if they sell trees?

The cashier is bewildered but they are just ignorant because they don't follow the current science. The current science that could be wrong in the future and that could determine that an apple is really a fig?

The only difference here is the emotion. The apple is not going to be offended if you call it a tree. An apple eater is probably not going to be too fussed that, "scientifically speaking" an apple is a tree and just to avoid confusion when at the grocery store will ask for an apple and not a tree.

And then, guess what? Science comes along and proves that actually, apples don't share the exact same chromosomes as trees. Because science is ever evolving.


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## GTL2 (Sep 1, 2016)

So far, this is what we have learned from gender politics:

Words with meanings you do not like should have their meanings changed to one that you do like.

Words with meanings you do like are immutable, (or maybe changed if you still like the new meaning).

You are unable to say what "man" and "woman" mean.


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## Driver79 (Sep 19, 2021)

GTL2 said:


> So far, this is what we have learned from gender politics:
> 
> Words with meanings you do not like should have their meanings changed to one that you do like.
> 
> ...


They are coming for the word 'female' now too.









'Jeopardy!' champ Amy Schneider becomes show's top female earner


Schneider, an engineering manager, became the show's first transgender contestant to qualify for the Tournament of Champions last month.




www.nbcnews.com





The headline indicates female but the subheading says the person is transgender. So now 'woman', 'transwoman' and 'female' are all synonymous.


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## shandcraig (Mar 23, 2008)

Rozzop said:


> But the current science could be wrong and get disproved at a later date?
> 
> I mean, you could say that about anything I suppose.
> 
> ...



people can call themselves whatever the fuck they want and rage for self entitlement as something else. But no one is going to devalue the word man or woman. 99 percent of the planet value those words and agree with them and except them. That is really where the story ends no matter how many twitter posts the 1 percenters make or trendy movement. Also anyone trying to devalue that really in the end is only hurting themselves.


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## Driver79 (Sep 19, 2021)

shandcraig said:


> people can call themselves whatever the fuck they want and rage for self entitlement as something else. But no one is going to devalue the word man or woman. 99 percent of the planet value those words and agree with them and except them. That is really where the story ends no matter how many twitter posts the 1 percenters make or trendy movement. Also anyone trying to devalue that really in the end is only hurting themselves.


At least when it comes to sports and competition I have a feeling that over the next 5-10 years you are going to see a huge pushback against the transgender movement, and I think leading the way will be teenage and college aged girls. 

Eventually these girls are going to get tired of having to put up with biological males invading all of their spaces and receiving all of the adulation, and like every group of young people before them they probably aren't going to see eye with the previous generation's politics. What's considered tolerant and progressive today could be seen as ignorant and out of touch in just a few year's time. Look no further than what used to be acceptable all but 10 years ago but is no longer tolerated today.

So yea I can definitely a see a scenario where teenage girls around the country voice start to speak up, and it will be amusing to see today's woke progressives attempt to rationalize being on the wrong side of history in their children's eyes. I suppose only time will tell, but in the mean time I just hope we can all live and let live.


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## CobraNightviper (Dec 16, 2021)

go stros said:


> this should go well


That's what I was thinking it doesn't matter where you stand on this situation everyone's going to complain.


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## Mr. King Of Kings (May 16, 2006)

You should be able to make jokes about anything or anyone, especially in the world of wrestling. Heck, this is how one starts to include and acknowledge people. There's no true change to be had if there's constant walking on eggshells or no contact.


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