# Bryan and Hangman Page just wrestled a beautiful Ironman match



## Prosper (Mar 25, 2015)

These two literally went 60 MINUTES. That shit was a straight banger, loved every second of it. I really didn’t want it to end. I honestly could have watched these 2 go the full 2 hours. Felt the same way about the Omega match. The common denominator here is Bryan, the guy is truly a master in the ring.

This match legitimized Hangman as a true main eventer, a guy that could hang with the best. Hangman and Bryan went 60, so when you look at the Omega/Bryan match and those two going 30 minutes, what was going through my mind was Hangman truly being on Omega’s level, because if the match at Grand Slam had continued, you’d imagine that those two would have gone 60 given the pace they were going, which was similar to tonight.

I really wish Hangman would have gotten the pinfall at the end though, I mean 60 minutes with no winner is deflating in a sense, but given the classic that we just saw, I thought personally that it was still well worth the watch.

Obviously after tonight, Tony isn’t ready for Bryan to take a clean loss yet, but I think with Hangman’s performance tonight, it didn’t matter at all. He still looked like a star. This puts him on Omega’s level but doesn’t elevate him to the point where he’s too hax. Definitely wasn’t expecting an Ironman match but damn glad that we got it. Great job by both guys. That was a ****1/2 star match for me.


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## Peerless (Aug 28, 2014)

Even if it was a good match it was a waste of time. Going an hour just to give the fans a draw is awful booking and deserves to be shit on.


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## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

Tony doesn't know what he's doing. 60 minute draws were for arena house shows in the 70's and 80's not for national (international?) television in 2021.


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## Lorromire (Jun 17, 2014)

Both played their roles well, the 60 minutes didn't even feel like 15 minutes when it was done. It also adds another layer to the fact that BD can't get the job done when it counts, but nor can he be defeated without giving it your all.


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## One Shed (Jan 7, 2014)

It was not a good decision. It was on free TV with what felt like ten commercial breaks. The crowd was sitting most of the time. Nothing about it felt important and it should have. What happens now when one of them loses a match in 15 minutes eventually? This was rushed and just so unnecessarily long.


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## ShadowCounter (Sep 1, 2016)

The crowd was chanting 5 more minutes after it was over. The belt is more prestigious, Hangman is in a league with only Omega now in taking Bryan to a draw and whoever Bryan's first loss is to is gonna be made over night. Some of the takes on this forum are so short sighted.


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## CM Buck (Sep 2, 2012)

Chip Chipperson said:


> Tony doesn't know what he's doing. 60 minute draws were for arena house shows in the 70's and 80's not for national (international?) television in 2021.


Not saying you directly when I say you but you would have been upset no matter what cause it was literally a no win situation. The draw was the best case scenario honestly. I'd rather you lot fight over a non finish than either other options.

It's resonating with casual AEW fans online which is awesome for AEW. 

So from a smark perspective you're correct but from a pure fan perspective given the buzz and praise it's getting you are wrong on this one


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## .christopher. (Jan 14, 2014)

Beautiful my arse.


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## CM Buck (Sep 2, 2012)

.christopher. said:


> Beautiful my arse.


Would you rather young bucks vs Dante and lio for 60 minutes? 

Are you basing your opinion on booking or from a fan perspective? Cause from a pure fan perspective it's getting a ton of praise


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## .christopher. (Jan 14, 2014)

Firefromthegods said:


> Would you rather young bucks vs Dante and lio for 60 minutes?
> 
> Are you basing your opinion on booking or from a fan perspective? Cause from a pure fan perspective it's getting a ton of praise


First, I don't think any match warrants 60 minutes at the moment. Those should be reserved for your top guys. Lesnar vs Angle for example. Hangman Page isn't on Bryan's level so them going to a time limit draw after an hour just brings Bryan down, whereas with a Angle/Lesnar, they were on equal footing so them going toe-to-toe for an hour was logical.

Punk vs Bryan is the only hour worthy match, and even then it'd probably be excessive.

My opinion would be the same from both povs. From a booking pov, it kills Bryan as a top guy. From a fan pov, as I said before, I only want to see the legitimate top guys going toe-to-toe for an hour (which will always be too long regardless of it being Lesnar/Angle, Rock/HHH, Bret/Shawn) and Page isn't a top guy. I don't want to watch him for an hour.


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## Buhalovski (Jul 24, 2015)

I didnt had the NJPW feel of 50+ min match. Not enough of a drama tbh. I dunno, but I liked Omega/Bryan much more than last night.

Hangman had much more chemistry with Kenny as well.


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## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

Since it leaked it could go 60 / draw I wasn’t as into it as i should’ve been

the leak took me out of it - might stay off here on Dynamite days - objectively it was a good match though

think the draw was the wrong call - would’ve loved for Hangman to win just before the 60 with that last Buckshot lariat


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## CM Buck (Sep 2, 2012)

.christopher. said:


> First, I don't think any match warrants 60 minutes at the moment. Those should be reserved for your top guys. Lesnar vs Angle for example. Hangman Page isn't on Bryan's level so them going to a time limit draw after an hour just brings Bryan down, whereas with a Angle/Lesnar, they were on equal footing so them going toe-to-toe for an hour was logical.
> 
> Punk vs Bryan is the only hour worthy match, and even then it'd probably be excessive.
> 
> My opinion would be the same from both povs. From a booking pov, it kills Bryan as a top guy. From a fan pov, as I said before, I only want to see the legitimate top guys going toe-to-toe for an hour (which will always be too long regardless of it being Lesnar/Angle, Rock/HHH, Bret/Shawn) and Page isn't a top guy. I don't want to watch him for an hour.


The time limit draw all but guarantees that hangman drops it at revolution. They will use this match as an excuse and maybe battle of the belts.

No way in hell does it kill Bryan though. I'm actually more interested in Bryan going forward after tonight. If you can craft a 60 minute match and make me pay attention the whole way through you're a top worker. I kid you not I didn't check my phone once. I did that during omega v Bryan. 

Bryan was decent in wwe but this Bryan is fucking incredible. If he ends up in Suzuki gun or even wrestling sabre Jr I'll be thrilled


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## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

It also killed the rest of the show for me - nothing was living up to that level


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## Slickdude458 (May 26, 2020)

well done roh 2.0 zzzzzzzzzzz who cares about a 1 hours wrestling match ffs when it means abosutelty nothing i'd rather have 10-15 minutes matches with actual context this feud is bullshit , tony khan just wants 2 hours of non stop wrestling on weekly tv how is that entertaining we all know wrestling is fake at least give us meaningful storylines and twists to discuss not endless fake fights ffs.


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## Riddle101 (Aug 15, 2006)

I didn't mind the ending. I mean it's a good way to keep both wrestlers looking strong while building drama for a possible second bout between the two. They told a good story though.


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## .christopher. (Jan 14, 2014)

Firefromthegods said:


> The time limit draw all but guarantees that hangman drops it at revolution. They will use this match as an excuse and maybe battle of the belts.
> 
> No way in hell does it kill Bryan though. I'm actually more interested in Bryan going forward after tonight. If you can craft a 60 minute match and make me pay attention the whole way through you're a top worker. I kid you not I didn't check my phone once. I did that during omega v Bryan.
> 
> Bryan was decent in wwe but this Bryan is fucking incredible. If he ends up in Suzuki gun or even wrestling sabre Jr I'll be thrilled


It doesn't matter if Bryan gets the belt then. He isn't hot anymore. The aura he had coming into AEW along with the hype is gone. He is just one of the guys now. They passed on the chance to capitalise on some buzz and an influx of new viewers.

It may not kill Bryan to you, or the majority of AEWs fanbase, but to anyone else trying to get into the show - and AEW should definitely be looking to grow their audience - all it does is it shows Bryan cannot get the job done against AEWs stars who aren't that good. So, in essence, it kills the status he had coming into the promotion. He's nothing special.

Punk still has his standout aura by the skin of his teeth.


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## Upstart474 (May 13, 2018)

I enjoyed Iron Man Match, it is shocking it was for free. I would have loved to see Omega vs Bryan in an Iron Man match but it was good. Hangman Page needs to be champion for quite a long time because the over 1 year build up would not look good. Congratulations to Hangman because I think this is his first world championship.


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## CM Buck (Sep 2, 2012)

.christopher. said:


> It doesn't matter if Bryan gets the belt then. He isn't hot anymore. The aura he had coming into AEW along with the hype is gone. He is just one of the guys now. They passed on the chance to capitalise on some buzz and an influx of new viewers.
> 
> It may not kill Bryan to you, or the majority of AEWs fanbase, but to anyone else trying to get into the show - and AEW should definitely be looking to grow their audience - all it does is it shows Bryan cannot get the job done against AEWs stars who aren't that good. So, in essence, it kills the status he had coming into the promotion. He's nothing special.
> 
> Punk still has his standout aura by the skin of his teeth.


Casuals seems to dig the match from what I see online. Guess we are going to have to wait for the ratings. You have my permission to bait me in there tomorrow if this match had a significant drop off and everything else out performed it


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## arch.unleash (Aug 31, 2016)

I don't care if it's the MOTY, it had no winner so it doesn't fucking count, 60 minutes of hard work flushed down the toilet. This company has a new kind of ignorance and stupidity, this is the second time they do this shit, so every EPICZ match will end in a draw because they're stupid lazy bastards who book themselves in corners and put main event matches on weekly shows? Fuck this company, fuck Bryan for agreeing to do all of this for a fucking draw, just make it a 15 minute match with a DQ finish and save this to the PPV with a definitive winner. Ok, rant over, I should give credit where credit is due, Bryan is in the Bret/Shawn category, he's by far the greatest of his generation and one of the best to ever do it, he's so insanely good.


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## ShadowCounter (Sep 1, 2016)

.christopher. said:


> It doesn't matter if Bryan gets the belt then. He isn't hot anymore. The aura he had coming into AEW along with the hype is gone. He is just one of the guys now. They passed on the chance to capitalise on some buzz and an influx of new viewers.


And if Bryan wins the belt quickly then it sends the message that AEW guys are goofs up against WWE/Outside guys. Which also pisses off the hardcore fans. Dumb move.


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## adamclark52 (Nov 27, 2015)

I love it


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## Erik. (Mar 17, 2014)

Just a shame about the ending.


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## Nickademus_Eternal (Feb 24, 2014)

ShadowCounter said:


> The crowd was chanting 5 more minutes after it was over. The belt is more prestigious, Hangman is in a league with only Omega now in taking Bryan to a draw and whoever Bryan's first loss is to is gonna be made over night. Some of the takes on this forum are so short sighted.


Nah. Their takes are fucking stupid.


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## Hotdiggity11 (Aug 24, 2006)

30 minutes is acceptable. A 60 minute draw is just ridiculous.


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## Nickademus_Eternal (Feb 24, 2014)

.christopher. said:


> First, I don't think any match warrants 60 minutes at the moment. Those should be reserved for your top guys. Lesnar vs Angle for example. Hangman Page isn't on Bryan's level so them going to a time limit draw after an hour just brings Bryan down, whereas with a Angle/Lesnar, they were on equal footing so them going toe-to-toe for an hour was logical.
> 
> Punk vs Bryan is the only hour worthy match, and even then it'd probably be excessive.
> 
> My opinion would be the same from both povs. From a booking pov, it kills Bryan as a top guy. From a fan pov, as I said before, I only want to see the legitimate top guys going toe-to-toe for an hour (which will always be too long regardless of it being Lesnar/Angle, Rock/HHH, Bret/Shawn) and Page isn't a top guy. I don't want to watch him for an hour.


This idea that it kills Bryan is bullshit tbh.


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## Nickademus_Eternal (Feb 24, 2014)

Jesus, y'all hate everything no matter wtf they do. Tf is the point of watching it then if all you do is bitch about it? Lol. It's wrestling.


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## Garty (Jul 29, 2007)

LifeInCattleClass said:


> It also killed the rest of the show for me - nothing was living up to that level


100% agreed. After that match, what could they have done? A debut? Absolutely it would have helped liven up the crowd again, but that didn't happen either. For me, that second hour was a chore to watch.


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## KingofKings1524 (Aug 27, 2007)

Being there in person, I have to say it was a hell of a match, but I was definitely not a fan of the draw. They had an opportunity to put over Hangman as a huge star and they didn’t pull the trigger.


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## BestInTheWorld22 (Nov 25, 2021)

It was so beautiful it made me fall asleep


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## RapShepard (Jun 20, 2014)

That was a meh match, that was overly long that the folk more on the pro AEW side are trying to convince themselves was epic to cover for the shit ending. You won't be watching this match years down the line lol.

There's a reason nobody is talking about their favorite moments and sequences in the match


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## Swan-San (May 25, 2019)

Skipped through that shit, boring af. Predictable af, way too long.


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## Lurker V2.0 (Feb 2, 2021)

ShadowCounter said:


> The crowd was chanting 5 more minutes after it was over. The belt is more prestigious, Hangman is in a league with only Omega now in taking Bryan to a draw and whoever Bryan's first loss is to is gonna be made over night. Some of the takes on this forum are so short sighted.


After sitting through 60 minutes the paying audience wanted 5 more minutes because half the show was spent on a draw. Belt prestige had nothing to do with it and no one thought Bryan was winning the strap.


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## Lurker V2.0 (Feb 2, 2021)

Lorromire said:


> Both played their roles well, the 60 minutes didn't even feel like 15 minutes when it was done. It also adds another layer to the fact that BD can't get the job done when it counts, but nor can he be defeated without giving it your all.


AEW’s biggest flaw right now is not giving quality TV time to wrestlers. They used half their show on 2 guys this week. Match was good but these two didn’t need a 60 minute draw on a Wednesday


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## Lurker V2.0 (Feb 2, 2021)

Firefromthegods said:


> Not saying you directly when I say you but you would have been upset no matter what cause it was literally a no win situation. The draw was the best case scenario honestly. I'd rather you lot fight over a non finish than either other options.
> 
> It's resonating with casual AEW fans online which is awesome for AEW.
> 
> So from a smark perspective you're correct but from a pure fan perspective given the buzz and praise it's getting you are wrong on this one


I am a casual fan (in my opinion at least) and a great 60 minute match on a Wednesday night was not appealing. Quality of wrestling aside there are a number of AEW stars who need TV time and stars I want to see. Hangman and Danielson are not bug enough stars to take over the show in my opinion.

Btw no one is stupid or garbage. Just my opinion.


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## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

RapShepard said:


> That was a meh match, that was overly long that the folk more on the pro AEW side are trying to convince themselves was epic to cover for the shit ending. You won't be watching this match years down the line lol.
> 
> There's a reason nobody is talking about there favorite moments and sequences in the match


Here’s my take on it, which isn’t too dissimilar to yours:

A) it was a very good match, but it really lacked the drama of a 60-minute bout. None of the false finishes had me on the edge of my seat. It just seemed to lack any sort of emotional story, whereas with Kenny/Hangman we knew the story of their history or Kenny/Bryan had the built-in “Who is the best of their generation?” story.

For me, this was just two guys wrestling. And it went about 25 minutes later than necessary.

B) They are clearly trying to elevate Page up to Kenny’s level as the in-ring Ace for a smoother transition for when Kenny can no longer go at that level. Think of Tanahashi/Okada relationship in regards to Kenny/Hangman.

C) The match’s spots weren’t even that good as you said. Page going off the top through the table and not having that be a finish is a real fucking Cody rHHHodes-like “spot”, aka pointless and stupidly unnecessary.

D) Most importantly, as a smark: Tony Khan just reminded the world that AEW guys can’t beat the WWE guy. If not Kenny or Hangman, who of the AEW faithful is worthy of beating Bryan? Hangman would have gained nothing in “just” going the distance that he couldn’t have gained in just flat out winning the fucking match. Bryan was beat, dead on his feet, seeing stars. That match was over, but Tony Khan had to let us all know that AEW’s top 2 guys, Kenny and Hangman, aren’t worthy of beating Bryan.

So, who deserves to beat Bryan now? If he saved Bryan’s first loss for Punk or Cody, then this cocksucker just TNA’d his whole roster.


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## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

The only way to salvage this is to use the two time-limit draws as a way to further the story between the three of them - Bryan, Hangman, and Kenny.

Very good match. But not the classic that any match going 60 minutes should be.


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## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

Oh, and I forgot my last thought:

Bryan and Hangman just proved they are no Kenny when it comes to in-ring storytelling. Kenny got the better match out of both men, further cementing the reason everyone has Kenny listed as their dream opponent. If you want to see “your guy” have his best match ever, throw him on the opposite side of the squared circle as Kenny Omega, and you’ll see “your guy” at his best.

Ho Hum. The God of Pro Wrestling reigns supreme… hah


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## RapShepard (Jun 20, 2014)

bdon said:


> Here’s my take on it, which isn’t too dissimilar to yours:
> 
> A) it was a very good match, but it really lacked the drama of a 60-minute bout. None of the false finishes had me on the edge of my seat. It just seemed to lack any sort of emotional story, whereas with Kenny/Hangman we knew the story of their history or Kenny/Bryan had the built-in “Who is the best of their generation?” story.
> 
> ...


If they're trying to get Page to Kenny's level in ring they're going to butcher him. The same way everybody isn't meant to be a character first guy like MJF and Miz, everybody isn't meant to be an in-ring wizard like Omega and Bryan. You don't pick up that trait a decade into your career, either you have it or you don't. Guys like Reigns, Cody, and Page don't have the in-ring skills to go an entertaining hour especially if it's not full of fuckery. Folk got into Page because he had a fun character you wanted to see succeed, not because he was a MotN contender. Let him be the fun Cowboy that folk have been waiting to see push people's shit in. 

And I didn't even think of D) like you did, but that is something to basically show that your last champion and current champion couldn't take out Bryan. Especially if you consider it took Page an entire hour before he was even close to beating him.


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## Erik. (Mar 17, 2014)

Seems to be quite the polarising match. 

Most places I have seen via social media seem to be praising the match unanimously and on here, not so much. Which seems to be a common theme. 

Personally, I credit both men for going 60 minutes and Bryan for some great heel work but the finish was always going to leave the match on a sour note. 

Bryan seems like on another level right now though and this is the most I've enjoyed a wrestlers work in a long time.


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## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

RapShepard said:


> If they're trying to get Page to Kenny's level in ring they're going to butcher him. The same way everybody isn't meant to be a character first guy like MJF and Miz, everybody isn't meant to be an in-ring wizard like Omega and Bryan. You don't pick up that trait a decade into your career, either you have it or you don't. Guys like Reigns, Cody, and Page don't have the in-ring skills to go an entertaining hour especially if it's not full of fuckery. Folk got into Page because he had a fun character you wanted to see succeed, not because he was a MotN contender. Let him be the fun Cowboy that folk have been waiting to see push people's shit in.
> 
> And I didn't even think of D) like you did, but that is something to basically show that your last champion and current champion couldn't take out Bryan. Especially if you consider it took Page an entire hour before he was even close to beating him.


Page is very good in-ring. Very, very good, but yeah, he is not on Kenny or Bryan’s level, and I agree, they just need to let him be a mixture of character and in-ring performer.

But…I have a feeling this has always been the idea. He and Kota Ibushi had a really great match towards the end of the Elite’s time in NJPW for instance, another way to elevate Hangman’s standing in the eyes of the workrate fans.

But I have said for 2 years that Kenny/Hangman was being built to be AEW’s version of Tana/Okada.


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## Freelancer (Aug 24, 2010)

I thought it was a great match. They're obviously setting up a no time limit rematch at the next PPV. Is Hangman on Omega's level, of course not. Bottom line is that this match is far better than anything you'll see in WWE.


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## cai1981 (Oct 2, 2016)

Chip Chipperson said:


> Tony doesn't know what he's doing. 60 minute draws were for arena house shows in the 70's and 80's not for national (international?) television in 2021.


FINALLY someone gets it!!!! The AEW faithful that are blindly praising this and everything AEW does to the high heavens do not realize that this is booking from 35-40 years ago and is NOT suitable for national television! 

If they felt a loss at this point hurt both guys: DON'T BOOK THE MATCH!!!!!!


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## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

RapShepard said:


> If they're trying to get Page to Kenny's level in ring they're going to butcher him. The same way everybody isn't meant to be a character first guy like MJF and Miz, everybody isn't meant to be an in-ring wizard like Omega and Bryan. You don't pick up that trait a decade into your career, either you have it or you don't. Guys like Reigns, Cody, and Page don't have the in-ring skills to go an entertaining hour especially if it's not full of fuckery. Folk got into Page because he had a fun character you wanted to see succeed, not because he was a MotN contender. Let him be the fun Cowboy that folk have been waiting to see push people's shit in.
> 
> And I didn't even think of D) like you did, but that is something to basically show that your last champion and current champion couldn't take out Bryan. Especially if you consider it took Page an entire hour before he was even close to beating him.


I am going to go out on a limb here and say that, at some point in the distant future, Bryan is going to be champion, and a babyface Kenny is going to challenge a heel Bryan for the title, a call back to Bryan’s own words in that promo that one day he’d face Kenny “for the title”. 
I am going to go out on a limb here and say that, at some point in the distant future, Bryan is going to be champion, and a babyface Kenny is going to challenge a heel Bryan for the title, a call back to Bryan’s own words in that promo that one day he’d face Kenny “for the title”.

Only difference being that Bryan suspected he’d be the challenger for KENNY’s AEW title, not Kenny challenging Bryan.

The two go 50+ minutes with Omega coming out on top before the 60-minutes is up as a payoff to those who took the bait and assumed they were just getting another time-limit draw.


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## Randy Lahey (Apr 14, 2014)

Tony is booking AEW similar to how Dana White does UFC, in that the match itself is the draw, not whoever the winner is.

Most UFC fans want to watch great fights, and aren’t as invested in the outcome just so long as the fight they watched was entertaining. I think TK is booking AEW (at least at the top) in a similar way. TK can book these matches as draws and expect the fans to still be happy bc they saw a great match.

It’s def anti-traditional wrestling and more UFC, but UFC is far more popular right now so we will see if it works


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## Kenny's Ghost (Nov 23, 2020)

ShadowCounter said:


> And if Bryan wins the belt quickly then it sends the message that AEW guys are goofs up against WWE/Outside guys. Which also pisses off the hardcore fans. Dumb move.


Then don't book the match.


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## RapShepard (Jun 20, 2014)

bdon said:


> Page is very good in-ring. Very, very good, but yeah, he is not on Kenny or Bryan’s level, and I agree, they just need to let him be a mixture of character and in-ring performer.
> 
> But…I have a feeling this has always been the idea. He and Kota Ibushi had a really great match towards the end of the Elite’s time in NJPW for instance, another way to elevate Hangman’s standing in the eyes of the workrate fans.
> 
> But I have said for 2 years that Kenny/Hangman was being built to be AEW’s version of Tana/Okada.


They just need to do their own thing and not try to be the new or American version of other shit. I dread the idea of a 50 minute match just for the sake of it lol


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## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

Chip Chipperson said:


> Tony doesn't know what he's doing. 60 minute draws were for arena house shows in the 70's and 80's not for national (international?) television in 2021.


I guess you are forgetting Flair making Sting a household name in ‘88 at Clash of the Champions on live television for free. That was sanctioned by YOUR favorite, the NWA.


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## rich110991 (Aug 27, 2020)

Loved it


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## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

RapShepard said:


> They just need to do their own thing and not try to be the new or American version of other shit. I dread the idea of a 50 minute match just for the sake of it lol


I suspect this was a Bryan decision. We both know he watched those NJPW classics and wanted one of his own.

Not everyone is Kenny Omega and Okada. Those two guys last night proved that. 60 minutes does not make 2 guys have a classic, but the right 2 guys will make a classic match go 60 minutes.


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## RapShepard (Jun 20, 2014)

Randy Lahey said:


> Tony is booking AEW similar to how Dana White does UFC, in that the match itself is the draw, not whoever the winner is.
> 
> Most UFC fans want to watch great fights, and aren’t as invested in the outcome just so long as the fight they watched was entertaining. I think TK is booking AEW (at least at the top) in a similar way. TK can book these matches as draws and expect the fans to still be happy bc they saw a great match.
> 
> It’s def anti-traditional wrestling and more UFC, but UFC is far more popular right now so we will see if it works


This is most off the mark take I've seen. Be it casual or hardcore fan the idea that MMA fans by and large don't care who wins as long as the fight is good is a crock of shit. Even the booking of fights from Dana's end usually hinges on a certain outcome. Even this weekend they had Kayla Harrison in attendance because the assumption was Nunes would retain her title and they'd then do a standoff between Nunes and Harrison.


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## Thomazbr (Apr 26, 2009)

I enjoyed it.
Danielson is an awesome heel. I could really just watch Danielson do his thing for the two hours of Dynamite. My biggest problem were the ads who butchered the match.


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## yeahright2 (Feb 11, 2011)

Firefromthegods said:


> Not saying you directly when I say you but you would have been upset no matter what cause it was literally a no win situation. The draw was the best case scenario honestly. I'd rather you lot fight over a non finish than either other options.
> 
> It's resonating with casual AEW fans online which is awesome for AEW.
> 
> So from a smark perspective you're correct but from a pure fan perspective given the buzz and praise it's getting you are wrong on this one


They shouldn´t have been in this situation if neither of them could take a loss. But they were booked into this, so a dusty finish like a ref stoppage due to blood would have been better.
This makes Bryan look bad because he couldn´t beat Omega in 30 minutes, or Page in 60.. What´s next? a 90 minute or 2 hour match? I´m sure Bryan has the cardio to do it, but sometimes less is more.


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## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

bdon said:


> I guess you are forgetting Flair making Sting a household name in ‘88 at Clash of the Champions on live television for free. That was sanctioned by YOUR favorite, the NWA.


That was actually a 45 minute time limit draw. Yeah, that one was pretty sweet and a great match but that was also 33 years ago, brother.


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## .christopher. (Jan 14, 2014)

Firefromthegods said:


> Casuals seems to dig the match from what I see online. Guess we are going to have to wait for the ratings. You have my permission to bait me in there tomorrow if this match had a significant drop off and everything else out performed it


I ain't gonna bait you, mate.


ShadowCounter said:


> And if Bryan wins the belt quickly then it sends the message that AEW guys are goofs up against WWE/Outside guys. Which also pisses off the hardcore fans. Dumb move.


First, everyone knows they are goofs.

Second, Bryan and Punk are so over that they wouldn't cause a backlash like that anyway.


Nickademus_Eternal said:


> This idea that it kills Bryan is bullshit tbh.


You can keep your head in the sand all you want but facts are facts.

When Bryan debuted, he had the highest rated segment in AEW history. Now, he routinely has one of - if not THE - lowest rated segment weekly.


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## Typical Cena Fan (May 18, 2016)

A stacked roster, yet Bryan/Hangman wrestle a 1 hour match. I’d be bored shitless watching the littlest Hobo but then AEW isn’t aimed at me.


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## DUD (Feb 21, 2021)

When that match finished it was the first time I looked at the rest of the card and asked myself: "Can I be bothered?". I was more entertained reacting with people on this forum in the show thread than I was actually watching it.


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## IronMan8 (Dec 25, 2015)

Instant classic for me, I don't care what other people think. The surprise of the 60-minute draw ended with a tension over whether or not Hangman would land the Buckshot before the time limit to achieve what his rival/frenemy Kenny Omega couldn't. In between, layers of character work and story was laid out in the ring.

There were several moments I wanted to talk about on here, but I'll get around to it later, there was so much detail crammed into this match so I don't know where to start.

There's an interesting uncertainty amongst the fanbase regarding Hangman's true ability as a top guy, which gives him a vulnerability that makes the crowd want to celebrate the signs that he's living up to expectation. Hard to describe, but it's like a sports team, and great to see.

Not knowing it would go for 60 minutes, I was interested and entertained the entire time.

I only have 2 complaints:

1. The post-match silly christmas promo with Jingle Bells playing in the background for Adam Cole, the Bucks, and Bobby Fish to act silly at a time when everyone felt disappointed enough already.

2. Major disconnection between the in-ring story and the commentators' words. The match was filled with highly detailed moments that were completely ignored by the commentators, who seemingly didn't know they were coming. E.g. the spot where Hangman lifted his foot... that was preceded by an exchange where Bryan was toying with Hangman by copying each of Hangman's moves. The lift of the foot was Hangman proving to Bryan he's smart in the ring. Bryan's grin disappeared, and he retreated to the ropes like earlier in the match, but this time, for a genuine reason to back up and process the fact now established that Hangman is better than Bryan realised.

Excalibur is generally great, but how did he describe the above?

"Hangman is so big, and so strong, but most of all he's so fast".

---> Hangman is fast?

That wasn't the story Bryan and Hangman just spent 10 minutes telling us! All of the commentators regularly made generic comments like this instead of reinforcing the actual stories being told in the ring.


----------



## Erik. (Mar 17, 2014)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1471298733572702210
I believe there's a few on this forum who believe that anyone who has ever worked in the wrestling business before is more knowledgeable than the fans. 

I've always liked Pac.


----------



## IronMan8 (Dec 25, 2015)

cai1981 said:


> FINALLY someone gets it!!!! The AEW faithful that are blindly praising this and everything AEW does to the high heavens do not realize that this is booking from 35-40 years ago and is NOT suitable for national television!
> 
> If they felt a loss at this point hurt both guys: DON'T BOOK THE MATCH!!!!!!


The next time there's a long championship match, the pop for a finish near the end will be massive.

This adds to that moment, because now we've been conditioned not to automatically expect a finish in the dying seconds, which feels contrived and leaves the fans just waiting for the countdown at the end when the finish will happen.

If you're not certain you'll get the reward, you'll get a bigger rush when you do get the reward.

Listen for the reactions on the near falls in the dying minutes of the next match like this...


----------



## DZ Crew (Sep 26, 2016)

The match was good, but honestly it went about 30 mins too long. But why on earth would you put on a 60min match on free tv with constant commercials?? Oh right, because you booked a mediocre card and your top match featured 2 guys who shouldn't be taking a loss yet. Honestly they should have had Paige face someone like Miro instead and given them 25 mins. Save Bryan for PPV and wait till you can have an actual finish.


----------



## deadcool (May 4, 2006)

I detest reading any AEW leaks because I trust their booking especially long term. It was a great match. I feel that Hangman really stepped it up, Bryan was amazing like he always is. I don't get why people are so mad at the draw ending. Save the good stuff for the PPV.


----------



## Damned (Oct 22, 2021)

deadcool said:


> I detest reading any AEW leaks because I trust their booking especially long term. It was a great match. I feel that Hangman really stepped it up, Bryan was amazing like he always is. I don't get why people are so mad at the draw ending. Save the good stuff for the PPV.


Totally agree. I'm baffled at all the hate. It was a solid pro wrestling match.


----------



## Undertaker23RKO (Jun 11, 2011)

.christopher. said:


> First, I don't think any match warrants 60 minutes at the moment. Those should be reserved for your top guys. Lesnar vs Angle for example. Hangman Page isn't on Bryan's level so them going to a time limit draw after an hour just brings Bryan down, whereas with a Angle/Lesnar, they were on equal footing so them going toe-to-toe for an hour was logical.
> 
> Punk vs Bryan is the only hour worthy match, and even then it'd probably be excessive.
> 
> My opinion would be the same from both povs. From a booking pov, it kills Bryan as a top guy. From a fan pov, as I said before, I only want to see the legitimate top guys going toe-to-toe for an hour (which will always be too long regardless of it being Lesnar/Angle, Rock/HHH, Bret/Shawn) and Page isn't a top guy. I don't want to watch him for an hour.


How does it "kill someone" who doesn't look any worse now than he did before the match?


----------



## Yukoncornelius (Mar 12, 2021)

I personally thought a draw was great. Two draws for Danielson so far is leading to a cage match or a different kind of speciality match because to pin someone theyll need something extra involved for the match. I’d like to see Omega vs Danielson next in a no dq match and then the winner could get to face Hangman again in a cage match.


----------



## 3venflow (Feb 3, 2019)

One of the best worked matches Stateside in recent times. I was really impressed by Hangman's long-term selling and psychology during the match. Obviously he learned a lot in NJPW and AEW, but I had some reservations about him doing the long main event match. Against Kenny and Danielson he nailed it though and has passed the in-ring test. Now they need to give him some juicy programs and MJF could be just that. I doubt MJF vs. Hangman is happening yet though, so who do they make Hangman's next program?

Great to see AEW have the balls to take 'ratings risks' (not that they are in any danger contrary to what some would hope and are on course for a bumper new deal) and put long, hard fought professional wrestling matches on free TV in the ADHD/lowest common denominator generation.

One thing this match and Kenny/Danielson lacked though is the ring announcer screaming '1 minute left!', '30 seconds left!' to up the drama. Roberts basically muttered it. A draw needs that late drama, though this did a better job in the last minute than Kenny/Danielson who looked like they had another 30 minutes in them.

Next time AEW does a match like Kenny vs. Danielson, they need to do the No Time Limit like the below to tell people there will be a finish. Time limit draws are great as a novelty, but you don't want them coming in too many big matches.


----------



## cai1981 (Oct 2, 2016)

IronMan8 said:


> The next time there's a long championship match, the pop for a finish near the end will be massive.
> 
> This adds to that moment, because now we've been conditioned not to automatically expect a finish in the dying seconds, which feels contrived and leaves the fans just waiting for the countdown at the end when the finish will happen.
> 
> ...


The RESULT of the match is the problem, not the match! Just like with the Danielson/Omega draw, there were THUNDEROUS boos when the bell rang.

There was ZERO follow up with DB and Omega and if you have to wait a year for DB and Page to have a rematch then this was a colossal waste of time!!! This is not 1987 where you didn't see everyone on TV every week and a story can play out in house shows for months until a payoff as far as a year later.


----------



## .christopher. (Jan 14, 2014)

Undertaker23RKO said:


> How does it "kill someone" who doesn't look any worse now than he did before the match?


Because it's now TWICE on FREE TV where Bryan has failed to get the job done against geeks. Bryan came in as a star, now he's one of the boys who can only beat jobbers. Took him about TWENTY MINUTES to beat a jobber last week, too.

He 100% looks worse. A lot worse.


----------



## Undertaker23RKO (Jun 11, 2011)

This was the right decision. The poorly done reading between the lines by some of you is appalling. They didn't establish AEW guys can't beat Bryan, they established Bryan/Omega/Hangman are all on the same level. That's it. My biggest issue with it is when there is one minute left that should absolutely be on the titantron to add suspense.


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

IronMan8 said:


> The next time there's a long championship match, the pop for a finish near the end will be massive.
> 
> This adds to that moment, because now we've been conditioned not to automatically expect a finish in the dying seconds, which feels contrived and leaves the fans just waiting for the countdown at the end when the finish will happen.
> 
> ...


I touched on this earlier, but you put it so much more eloquently.



bdon said:


> The two go 50+ minutes with Omega coming out on top before the 60-minutes is up as a payoff to those who took the bait and assumed they were just getting another time-limit draw.


----------



## Undertaker23RKO (Jun 11, 2011)

.christopher. said:


> Because it's now TWICE on FREE TV where Bryan has failed to get the job done against geeks. Bryan came in as a star, now he's one of the boys who can only beat jobbers. Took him about TWENTY MINUTES to beat a jobber last week, too.
> 
> He 100% looks worse. A lot worse.


Geeks? You mean two reigning AEW champions? What a stupid take.


----------



## Joe Gill (Jun 29, 2019)

TK is a fucking moron. He tried to protect both wrestlers but both end up weak. Hangman rarely wrestlers and gets a draw in his first defense.... and Bryan once again cant finish the job in the big match. They are both worse off now. Even if they are setting up a rematch how do they top a 60 minute match? cage match? exploding barbed wire? 
This also ruins the Omega vs Bryan rematch. That is the match that should have went an hour. Fuck TK and his horrible booking.....its like being forced to watch the fantasy booking of an online wrestling nerd with no real experience in booking.


----------



## #BadNewsSanta (Sep 26, 2004)

The match was amazing and frankly, I don’t know that Hangman is really that far behind Omega in the ring and last night kind of showed it for me (while Omega’s great in ring, I don’t think he’s this elite near GOAT class worker some others do). However I do think Bryan/Omega is the better of the two mostly down to how the draw, and it’s relation to the match was handled. For these two reasons:

1. The ending that led to the draw itself was better. Bryan and Omega were slugging it out and seemed like equals. It makes the desire to see a proper finish between the two happen because it felt like the match was only in its 2nd or 3rd stage, leaving you wanting more. With Bryan and Page, we basically got a full match between the two, and Page basically looked to win but only didn’t because of the time limit draw. It’s a fine ending to establish Page, BUT if that was the goal then he should have just straight up won. That would’ve been 10x more effective. OR if they wanted to keep the ending up in the air, go for the DQ finish where either Hangman unleashes weeks of frustration on Bryan and looks like a badass in the process, or have Bryan get DQ’d and beat the shit outta Page because Bryan realized he couldn’t beat Page with Page at 100% after all.

2. A draw after a 30-minute match with nothing at stake besides pride between two of the “best wrestlers” on the planet who are both already established imo works better than the draw after a 60-minute match where one of the competitors needs to win to help establish their reign (if that’s the way they wanted to go).

That all said, the work in both matches were different, but about equal. Bryan and Omega was more of a spectacle and crisp but I think in general Bryan and Page did a better job telling their story throughout. Both are classics and really, me saying Bryan/Omega is better really just comes down to the endings.


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

Undertaker23RKO said:


> This was the right decision. The poorly done reading between the lines by some of you is appalling. They didn't establish AEW guys can't beat Bryan, they established Bryan/Omega/Hangman are all on the same level. That's it. My biggest issue with it is when there is one minute left that should absolutely be on the titantron to add suspense.


Everyone already suspected that Omega and Hangman couldn’t beat Bryan. That’s terrible promotional work of your top two guys. That ending all but guarantees Page isn’t going to be champion beyond Revolution, and if not those two, then who IS goddamn deserving of beating Bryan? Honestly..? Who in AEW is presented as being better between the ropes than Kenny Omega or Hangman Page? TK can only rectify this by having the two time-limit draws play out in an overarching story that returns Kenny back to both participants.

TL;DR

Page had Bryan beat, dead-to-rights, but TK didn’t want to pull the trigger on Bryan taking an L. So, he just told us all that neither AEW’s former or current champion was worthy of the prestige of beating Bryan.

And I thought the AEW title was supposed to be the most prestigious title in all of sports. Apparently for TK, beating Bryan is more prestigious.


----------



## shandcraig (Mar 23, 2008)

Chip Chipperson said:


> Tony doesn't know what he's doing. 60 minute draws were for arena house shows in the 70's and 80's not for national (international?) television in 2021.



its been the famous line these days " tony dont know what hes doing" lol i wonder if he will ever come to realization of this and fucking hire someone to direct the company.


----------



## Fwwla (Feb 27, 2021)

Nickademus_Eternal said:


> Jesus, y'all hate everything no matter wtf they do. Tf is the point of watching it then if all you do is bitch about it? Lol. It's wrestling.


For real, people would be bitching if Hangman had beat Bryan. They’d probably complain he was being buried or something, so idk wtf people want.


----------



## Sad Panda (Aug 16, 2021)

Absolutely loved it.

Told the story of Page who legit has sealed his footing as a champion. There was still question about his ability mentally to compete with these big fish, even after the win against Omega and he hurdled those thoughts effortlessly.

It told the story of the cocky heel who has been steamrolling through his competition, beating them in multiple ways, using different body parts to submit them, he’s been a wrestling genius. Dragon also just kicked the fucking heads of all the champions comrades leading up to this match.

Hangman was able to withstand all the brutality, all of the submission expertise by Danielson but even an hour wasn’t enough for these two men.

This is such a good look for Hangman, it elevates him even more as a guy that isn’t a fluke champion but a fighting champion. Danielson doesn’t need the rub, we know how great he is, his resume speaks for itself. It also opens up the question, where the heck do we go next?

Absolute brilliance. Thank you to these two men for putting on a clinic.


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

#BadNewsSanta said:


> 1. The ending that led to the draw itself was better. Bryan and Omega were slugging it out and seemed like equals. It makes the desire to see a proper finish between the two happen because it felt like the match was only in its 2nd or 3rd stage, leaving you wanting more. With Bryan and Page, we basically got a full match between the two, and Page basically looked to win but only didn’t because of the time limit draw. It’s a fine ending to establish Page, *BUT if that was the goal then he should have just straight up won. That would’ve been 10x more effective*. OR if they wanted to keep the ending up in the air, go for the DQ finish where either Hangman unleashes weeks of frustration on Bryan and looks like a badass in the process, or have Bryan get DQ’d and beat the shit outta Page because Bryan realized he couldn’t beat Page with Page at 100% after all.


This.

Kenny and Bryan’s ending left a lot of questions in the air. Bryan and Page’s ending falls flat, because as an audience member (playing along in Kayfabe), you immediately know that Page would have won with another few seconds on the clock, and as an audience member (NOT playing along in Kayfabe), you now know that TK doesn’t believe his current and former champions were worthy of the honor of giving an L to Bryan.


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

Fwwla said:


> For real, people would be bitching if Hangman had beat Bryan. They’d probably complain he was being buried or something, so idk wtf people want.


I’d have been fine with either guy winning or losing last night, whereas with Kenny and Bryan, I felt you HAD to do the time limit draw.

No one was dying to see those two go 60 minutes. Hangman was not classed as being that guy. He isn’t cool or over for his in-ring abilities. He is over for his character work. Establishing a hierarchy between the two of them would have been more than fine, no matter if it pissed off some fans or not.

As I said, the only way to rectify this is for the two time-limit draws to play out in an overarching story that involves all THREE participants.


----------



## Undertaker23RKO (Jun 11, 2011)

bdon said:


> Everyone already suspected that Omega and Hangman couldn’t beat Bryan. That’s terrible promotional work of your top two guys. That ending all but guarantees Page isn’t going to be champion beyond Revolution, and if not those two, then who IS goddamn deserving of beating Bryan? Honestly..? Who in AEW is presented as being better between the ropes than Kenny Omega or Hangman Page? TK can only rectify this by having the two time-limit draws play out in an overarching story that returns Kenny back to both participants.
> 
> TL;DR
> 
> ...


What the fuck does "deserving of beating Bryan" even mean? They were champions, not him. Meaning he has to beat them, not the other way around. Him wanting to keep everyone looking strong and on the same level is not a shot against either Hangman or Omega.


----------



## Fwwla (Feb 27, 2021)

bdon said:


> I’d have been fine with either guy winning or losing last night, whereas with Kenny and Bryan, I felt you HAD to do the time limit draw.
> 
> No one was dying to see those two go 60 minutes. Hangman was not classed as being that guy. He isn’t cool or over for his in-ring abilities. He is over for his character work. Establishing a hierarchy between the two of them would have been more than fine, no matter if it pissed off some fans or not.
> 
> As I said, the only way to rectify this is for the two time-limit draws to play out in an overarching story that involves all THREE participants.


Maybe you would, but there would probably still be some people complaining about Bryan losing, saying he’s buried or held down. If Bryan won, complaining that he’s not letting anyone beat him and is selfish.


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

Fwwla said:


> Maybe you would, but there would probably still be some people complaining about Bryan losing, saying he’s buried or held down. If Bryan won, complaining that he’s not letting anyone beat him and is selfish.


The two time-limit finishes come across as wanting to protect your former and current champions while saving the real prize, beating Bryan Danielson clean, for someone like Punk or Cody, telling us all that it takes a WWE guy to beat another top WWE guy.


----------



## .christopher. (Jan 14, 2014)

Undertaker23RKO said:


> Geeks? You mean two reigning AEW champions? What a stupid take.


Yes...















fucking GEEKS


----------



## RapShepard (Jun 20, 2014)

Sad Panda said:


> Absolutely loved it.
> 
> Told the story of Page who legit has sealed his footing as a champion. There was still question about his ability mentally to compete with these big fish, even after the win against Omega and he hurdled those thoughts effortlessly.
> 
> ...


Y'all just be saying anything. Arguing that Page not winning the match validates how he's not a fluke champion is an ass pull argument lol.


----------



## Undertaker23RKO (Jun 11, 2011)

.christopher. said:


> Yes...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Cool, so you've essentially admitted AEW isn't for you. If you view the champs as geeks, it can't be helped, and you should watch something else.


----------



## Sad Panda (Aug 16, 2021)

.christopher. said:


> Yes...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So they’re geeks, or nerds or whatever derogatory bully shit you want to call them. They’re also two of the better workers in the world and are looked at as such.

I find this post interesting as well because Danielson for most of his WWE career Danielson was called the “vanilla midget” or the geek as you most profoundly used. Now all of a sudden he’s the star and these two other guys are geeks. Whatever.

The one common thread I see are wrestling fans are legit so most fickle, and mean spirited. Everything must be picked apart.


----------



## RiverFenix (Dec 10, 2011)

I'd be willing to bet large sums of money that Danielson's first loss will not be to Punk or Cody Rhodes. It will be to Omega, or to mint somebody overnight. I could see Bryan losing to Allin in Seattle if that happens any time soon. Allin never got his signature win, other than beating Cody for TNT title I guess.

Sorta crazy how Daniel Bryan jobbed left and right in WWE, but in AEW Bryan Danielson is rightly protected and his "first loss" going to be treated as a big deal. 

This was supposed to be Hangman vs Moxley, likely with Hangman winning and furthering Moxley's heel turn. AEW was painted in a corner a bit and went with Hangman vs American Dragon as it's biggest free match possible but didn't want either to lose. So they went with a masterpiece 60 minute match time limit draw that protected both. 

MOTY candidate and both Hangman and Danielson come out very strong.


----------



## thorn123 (Oct 10, 2019)

People complain that hangman didn’t win.
People complain that Bryan didn‘t win.
People complain about another time limit draw.
meanwhile water is wet and the sky is blue.


----------



## Sad Panda (Aug 16, 2021)

RapShepard said:


> Y'all just be saying anything. Arguing that Page not winning the match validates how he's not a fluke champion is an ass pull argument lol.


Sorry if it bothers you that my opinion doesn’t correlate with yours but that’s how I feel about it. Page just went an hour with a guy that has been legit wiping his boots with the entire roster since debuting, and was mere seconds away from beating him.

I feel that validates him for sure, you think that’s an “ass pull argument”. Your problem not mine.


----------



## DammitChrist (Apr 3, 2016)

GNKenny said:


> Then don't book the match.


Nah, this was a good way to compensate for losing Jon Moxley atm.


----------



## Cooper09 (Aug 24, 2016)

These long ass matches ending in draws need to be outlawed. It's cheap, devoid of any balls to make a strong decision from Tony and it completely sucks ass. Want to make Hangman a strong champion, have him beat Danielson clean as a whistle.


----------



## Lorromire (Jun 17, 2014)

Lurker V2.0 said:


> AEW’s biggest flaw right now is not giving quality TV time to wrestlers. They used half their show on 2 guys this week. Match was good but these two didn’t need a 60 minute draw on a Wednesday


Seeing as how the alternative was a 8-man tag or a 5-man tag match, I'm fine with it. BD and Page deserve the time to shine for once.

You also act as if they do this every single week? One long match every 3-6 months is fine, especially if it delivers and if it drives the narrative further.


----------



## DZ Crew (Sep 26, 2016)

Fwwla said:


> For real, people would be bitching if Hangman had beat Bryan. They’d probably complain he was being buried or something, so idk wtf people want.


If neither man can afford a loss, don't have the match. Simple as that. Especially seeing as you just had a time limit draw a couple months ago.


----------



## RapShepard (Jun 20, 2014)

Sad Panda said:


> Sorry if it bothers you that my opinion doesn’t correlate with yours but that’s how I feel about it. Page just went an hour with a guy that has been legit wiping his boots with the entire roster since debuting, and was mere seconds away from beating him.
> 
> I feel that validates him for sure, you think that’s an “ass pull argument”. Your problem not mine.


Yeah sure lol


----------



## DammitChrist (Apr 3, 2016)

DZ Crew said:


> If neither man can afford a loss, don't have the match. Simple as that. Especially seeing as you just had a time limit draw a couple months ago.


Nah, this was a good substitute for Jon Moxley not being available atm.

The 60-minute match last night was the right call to make


----------



## yeahright2 (Feb 11, 2011)

Sad Panda said:


> Sorry if it bothers you that my opinion doesn’t correlate with yours but that’s how I feel about it. Page just went an hour with a guy that has been legit wiping his boots with the entire roster since debuting, and was mere seconds away from beating him.
> 
> I feel that validates him for sure, you think that’s an “ass pull argument”. Your problem not mine.


Bryan has had long matches with comedy job guys from Dork Order, that´s not the entire roster. And the only 2 times he faced legit competition (Omega and Page), he couldn´t get the job done. That doesn´t elevate Page to Bryans level.. It lowers Bryan to Page´s.
Page isn´t bad - he´s actually quite good. But he´s not the guy who was in a title match at Wrestlemania just this year, and is a Triple crown/grand slam champion in the biggest promotion in the world. There´s not even the Punk excuse that it has been 7 years since he wrestled -Bryan is as good as he gets right now.

The match was fine.. Not the MOTY match some people say it was, but it was fine. The ending is what´s wrong with it.


----------



## thorn123 (Oct 10, 2019)

I am loving the unpredictability of the start of dynamite lately (something I have been critical of). From openers involving high flying tag matches, to epic promos, to iron man matches.

This match was a classic. Legends of a bygone era would be proud. Now that is the sport of pro wrestling.


----------



## Lurker V2.0 (Feb 2, 2021)

Lorromire said:


> You also act as if they do this every single week? One long match every 3-6 months is fine, especially if it delivers and if it drives the narrative further.


Nowhere did I imply they do this every week. Long matches are fine but an hour match on Dynamite is not my favorite flavor.


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

RapShepard said:


> Y'all just be saying anything. Arguing that Page not winning the match validates how he's not a fluke champion is an ass pull argument lol.


Tony Khan doesn’t even believe his champion is worthy of beating Bryan.

Shitty decision on TK’s part, but you have to listen to what the promoters tell us.


----------



## TonySirico (Sep 8, 2021)

Peerless said:


> Even if it was a good match it was a waste of time. Going an hour just to give the fans a draw is awful booking and deserves to be shit on.


You realize there was a time when world title matches ended this way regularly, right?


----------



## .christopher. (Jan 14, 2014)

Undertaker23RKO said:


> Cool, so you've essentially admitted AEW isn't for you. If you view the champs as geeks, it can't be helped, and you should watch something else.


Spare me the bullshit. You don't have to like everything about AEW.


Sad Panda said:


> So they’re geeks, or nerds or whatever derogatory bully shit you want to call them. They’re also two of the better workers in the world and are looked at as such.
> 
> I find this post interesting as well because Danielson for most of his WWE career Danielson was called the “vanilla midget” or the geek as you most profoundly used. Now all of a sudden he’s the star and these two other guys are geeks. Whatever.
> 
> The one common thread I see are wrestling fans are legit so most fickle, and mean spirited. Everything must be picked apart.


I don't give a shit about how they're perceived as workers. Dean Malenko and Lance Storm were as crisp in the ring as anyone but they were geeks.as

Yes, Danielson was perceived as one, but guess what was? I didn't agree. Shock horror - we have different opinions.

I'm going to be nice and leave it here with you because I've seen your thread about your mother and don't want to be a dick when you're dealing with that. All the best to you and your mum.


----------



## RapShepard (Jun 20, 2014)

bdon said:


> Tony Khan doesn’t even believe his champion is worthy of beating Bryan.
> 
> Shitty decision on TK’s part, but you have to listen to what the promoters tell us.


You're just not smart enough to realize how this was actually a great move and high quality storytelling


----------



## The XL 2 (Sep 13, 2016)

Opening with it killed it immediately. It was clear they were going 60 and it was clear that it would be a draw. Ice cold match, no heat. Glorified house show match. The crowd was hot for it, but this is the same fan base who reacted to Orange Cassidy like he was The Rock before he had any exposure on national television, so.....


----------



## Sad Panda (Aug 16, 2021)

yeahright2 said:


> Bryan has had long matches with comedy job guys from Dork Order, that´s not the entire roster. And the only 2 times he faced legit competition (Omega and Page), he couldn´t get the job done. That doesn´t elevate Page to Bryans level.. It lowers Bryan to Page´s.
> Page isn´t bad - he´s actually quite good. But he´s not the guy who was in a title match at Wrestlemania just this year, and is a Triple crown/grand slam champion in the biggest promotion in the world. There´s not even the Punk excuse that it has been 7 years since he wrestled -Bryan is as good as he gets right now.
> 
> The match was fine.. Not the MOTY match some people say it was, but it was fine. The ending is what´s wrong with it.


Respectfully disagree. Danielson is a made man for those reasons you listed above. He has the wrestlemania main events, the world title reigns in the biggest wrestling company in the world. His prerogative (as is Punks) is to elevate these guys in this company to make them big deals. Having the unproven champ reach those levels with a name like Danielson can only benefit him going further.

Danielson and Punk are Teflon dons..their status is supplanted within the wrestling community.


----------



## DammitChrist (Apr 3, 2016)

.christopher. said:


> Spare me the bullshit. You don't have to like everything about AEW.


You don't have to dislike everything either, dude.


----------



## Sad Panda (Aug 16, 2021)

.christopher. said:


> Spare me the bullshit. You don't have to like everything about AEW.
> 
> I don't give a shit about how they're perceived as workers. Dean Malenko and Lance Storm were as crisp in the ring as anyone but they were geeks.as
> 
> ...


I appreciate that brother, thank you.


----------



## .christopher. (Jan 14, 2014)

DammitChrist said:


> You don't have to dislike everything either, dude.


I don't, which is why I watch it. It's also why I get annoyed when they do stupid stuff as they clearly have potential.


----------



## .christopher. (Jan 14, 2014)

Sad Panda said:


> I appreciate that brother, thank you.


No probs. Mums are the best so I sympathise. I really hope everything gets better, and I'm glad that you enjoyed this match even if I didn't.


----------



## Scuba Steve (Sep 29, 2021)

The XL 2 said:


> Opening with it killed it immediately. It was clear they were going 60 and it was clear that it would be a draw. Ice cold match, no heat. Glorified house show match. The crowd was hot for it, but this is the same fan base who reacted to Orange Cassidy like he was The Rock before he had any exposure on national television, so.....


I disagree that opening the show with the title match made it obvious it would go 60. Most fans would not have been thinking that if there was no social media leak earlier in the day. Had the match began at the top of hour 2, it would be obvious that we were in for a long match.


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

RapShepard said:


> You're just not smart enough to realize how this was actually a great move and high quality storytelling


Well, I’m actually open (and leaning that way to be honest) to the idea that the two recent time-limit draws are going to play off each other in some form or fashion. Whether that be in a Triple Threat match, or a year down the line when Bryan is champ and Kenny challenges Bryan for the title and everyone is expecting another long draw, a finish occurs out of nowhere. Or something similar.

The time limit draw has now been booked as the star attraction in the three competitors’ story. Bryan and Kenny went 30 for a draw. Bryan complained he wanted Kenny, and Hangman pointing out he finished Kenny in less than the 30 minutes Bryan couldn’t. Bryan and Page now going 60 minutes.

The time limit has been crafted to be the star attraction, so sometime soon, it WILL be used as a ploy to swerve the fans in a big moment involving at least two, if not all three, of the 3 participants.



And I say that as someone who STILL hates the decision and felt last night was a cop out the way it was handled. If you’re going to have someone so clearly with the upper hand as the time limit draws near, then you need to just give the finish. No pussy-footing to protect anyone.


----------



## Jbardo37 (Aug 20, 2021)

Just watched it and I thought it was fantastic. The draw didn’t bother me either, we will get a rematch on PPV which Hangman will likely win.


----------



## Prized Fighter (Aug 31, 2016)

bdon said:


> Well, I’m actually open (and leaning that way to be honest) to the idea that the two recent time-limit draws are going to play off each other in some form or fashion. Whether that be in a Triple Threat match, or a year down the line when Bryan is champ and Kenny challenges Bryan for the title and everyone is expecting another long draw, a finish occurs out of nowhere. Or something similar.
> 
> The time limit draw has now been booked as the star attraction in the three competitors’ story. Bryan and Kenny went 30 for a draw. Bryan complained he wanted Kenny, and Hangman pointing out he finished Kenny in less than the 30 minutes Bryan couldn’t. Bryan and Page now going 60 minutes.
> 
> ...


I agree with you. The match was good, but the draw wasn't necessary. In fact, I think it would have done more for both guys if Hangman got the pin at the 59 minute mark. When he hit the buckshot, I actually thought they were going that route. It gives Hangman a huge win and protects Bryan as the guy who can take anyone to the limit. It still fits the Omega draw story as well.


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

Prized Fighter said:


> I agree with you. The match was good, but the draw wasn't necessary. In fact, I think it would have done more for both guys if Hangman got the pin at the 59 minute mark. When he hit the buckshot, I actually thought they were going that route. It gives Hangman a huge win and protects Bryan as the guy who can take anyone to the limit. It still fits the Omega draw story as well.


Hangman just securing the W would have been a better ending. Or Hangman being knocked out and unable to continue. Or both men slugging it out the way Kenny and Bryan ended.

Showing fans Hangman was the better man but unworthy of your booking decision to win is a terrible way to make a star.


----------



## Prized Fighter (Aug 31, 2016)

bdon said:


> Hangman just securing the W would have been a better ending. Or Hangman being knocked out and unable to continue. Or both men slugging it out the way Kenny and Bryan ended.
> 
> *Showing fans Hangman was the better man but unworthy of your booking decision to win is a terrible way to make a star.*


Yes and no. I think it is a good way to make a guy a star, if they aren't the champion. If Hangman, was the guy grinding out the match and just loses late, then it can build him up. Unfortunately, he is the champion, so he needed the win to solidify him more. Or they could have had Bryan win and have Hangman go the journey of having to learn how to be (and stay) at that level.


----------



## Derek30 (Jan 3, 2012)

I thought it was fucking awesome.


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

Prized Fighter said:


> Yes and no. I think it is a good way to make a guy a star, if they aren't the champion. If Hangman, was the guy grinding out the match and just loses late, then it can build him up. Unfortunately, he is the champion, so he needed the win to solidify him more. Or they could have had Bryan win and have Hangman go the journey of having to learn how to be (and stay) at that level.


No, we’re in total agreement. He IS the champion and should just win outright, reminding everyone that the AEW Championship represents the best in the world, which is why so many hold it in such high prestige.

By protecting the guy who isn’t champion, Daniel Bryan, for a second time via time limit draw, all you have done is say that beating Bryan Danielson is more important than winning the World Title. Guys have beat champions, but not even our champions can beat Bryan.

Just a terrible decision. Have Page win outright and elevate him to be The Man. Or have Bryan win outright, using it as a storytelling device to further Page’s growth as a character in front of the camera and showing that it takes even more energy to STAY a champion than it does to become one.

And that last part would not only work to make the next chapter of Page’s story interesting, but it also would have lent more prestige to every champion before who had lengthy time as champ.

The way they did it last night was the worst decision I could possibly think…


----------



## Thomazbr (Apr 26, 2009)

The XL 2 said:


> Opening with it killed it immediately. It was clear they were going 60 and it was clear that it would be a draw. Ice cold match, no heat. Glorified house show match. The crowd was hot for it, but this is the same fan base who reacted to Orange Cassidy like he was The Rock before he had any exposure on national television, so.....


"Ice cold match except the crowd was hot for it but it doesn't count"


----------



## ajmaf625 (Dec 7, 2007)

So Bryan has been in AEW for 2 months now and has been in 2 draws, interesting. Seems AEW is relying on draws like WWE relies on dq finishes to extend feuds


----------



## Garmonbozia (Jan 30, 2013)

I give it 6/10. It was fun watching it live but I wouldn't watch it again.


----------



## Undertaker23RKO (Jun 11, 2011)

.christopher. said:


> Spare me the bullshit. You don't have to like everything about AEW.
> 
> I don't give a shit about how they're perceived as workers. Dean Malenko and Lance Storm were as crisp in the ring as anyone but they were geeks.as
> 
> ...


I don't like everything about AEW. Far from it, but if you think going a 30 minute draw and 60 minute draw against two champions kills someone, and that those two guys are geeks you're either watching the wrong product or giving a horrible take.


----------



## .christopher. (Jan 14, 2014)

Thomazbr said:


> "Ice cold match except the crowd was hot for it but it doesn't count"


AEW crowds are hot for everything, and I'm sure that's not even what @The XL 2 was getting at. It was ice cold in the sense that this rivalry has little substance to it, and he is right.

It's just "I want to wrestle you". "Okay, wrestle me". No meat on the bone.

They tried to heat it up by having Bryan devalue himself week after week by facing Dark Order jobbers, which resulted in Bryan constantly being in the lowest rated segments of the show, but that's not heat. It's a joke.


----------



## .christopher. (Jan 14, 2014)

Undertaker23RKO said:


> I don't like everything about AEW. Far from it, but if you think going a 30 minute draw and 60 minute draw against two champions kills someone, and that those two guys are geeks you're either watching the wrong product or giving a horrible take.


Of course it does. Actually, not does, has. It's why after being in the highest rated segment in AEW history, he's now - more often than not - in the lowest. Or right near the bottom. It's no coincidence.


----------



## Klitschko (May 24, 2020)

Fans in 2021 would have probably shit on the epic Punk/Samoa Joe trilogy in ROH. 

But but but mah time limit. 

Shut the fuck up.


----------



## Erik. (Mar 17, 2014)

Klitschko said:


> Fans in 2021 would have probably shit on the epic Punk/Samoa Joe rivalry in ROH.
> 
> But but but mah time limit.
> 
> Shut the fuck up.


To be fair, it's not for everyone.

I was/am a huge fan of the NWA and AJPW - both companies would regularly do time limit draws.

I feel like a lot of the backlash from many is because the modern audience isn't accustomed and comfortable with long matches, certainly ones that end in draws as they haven't really been a thing in wrestling since the 80s outside of ROH and the Okada/Omega match - but I do believe time limit draws should be normalised as something that could happen, just obviously not all the time.

I feel the main issue that people are having with the match and the outcome is that Bryan and Page wasn't really a feud deserving of it. Certainly not with the way it's been built. Bryan/Omega made sense in that Omega had never wrestled someone of Bryans level before in AEW, Bryan having something to prove etc.

As always, it's worth seeing where it goes. It's not a coincidence that Bryan has faced two world champions and not lost to either of them but also has nothing to show for it.


----------



## CMPunkRock316 (Jan 17, 2016)

Match was great. Like really, really good. Hangman proved to me he is even better than I thought he was previously. Danielson is truly one of the greatest wrestlers of ANY generation if we can be honest about it.


----------



## Nickademus_Eternal (Feb 24, 2014)

Fwwla said:


> For real, people would be bitching if Hangman had beat Bryan. They’d probably complain he was being buried or something, so idk wtf people want.


Regardless of what they do, aew provides me entertainment. I don't understand why people constantly watch something only to bitch about it. Then do the same thing every week. Just straight up miserable.


----------



## DammitChrist (Apr 3, 2016)

Nickademus_Eternal said:


> Regardless of what they do, aew provides me entertainment. I don't understand why people constantly watch something only to bitch about it. Then do the same thing every week. Just straight up miserable.


I'm anxious about the quarterly ratings, but I REALLY hope they do good numbers last night to silence those who pretty much always oppose in-ring work in favor of promos and squash matches. It would feel very rewarding too because you KNOW what the reactions would be if they somehow struggled with the ratings last night.


----------



## floyd2386 (Sep 28, 2010)

A big, PPV caliber match turned into a weekly TV show match with an anticlimactic finish?

Classic WCW bullshit.


----------



## Scuba Steve (Sep 29, 2021)

bdon said:


> By protecting the guy who isn’t champion, Daniel Bryan, for a second time via time limit draw, all you have done is say that beating Bryan Danielson is more important than winning the World Title. Guys have beat champions, but not even our champions can beat Bryan.


This is in a way criticizing the story before finishing it. Not that one isn't entitled to do so. 

But the announcers alluded to a rematch and that would make a ton of sense for this story to get a part two. If Hanger cleanly wins the rematch then I believe it alters what you are getting at. I could also see the postmatch in the rematch ending in a handshake ala ROH and then Bryan in a Dynamite promo putting over Hanger for his heart, toughness and having earned his respect.


----------



## The XL 2 (Sep 13, 2016)

Thomazbr said:


> "Ice cold match except the crowd was hot for it but it doesn't count"


The AEW arena audience is hot for basically anything they do. Just like the ECW audience was. Doesn't mean it had any real heat with the majority of the viewership. It wasn't even that loud by established AEW crowd standards.



floyd2386 said:


> A big, PPV caliber match turned into a weekly TV show match with an anticlimactic finish?
> 
> Classic WCW bullshit.


At least WCW didn't waste 60 minutes before boneing the audience with a terrible finish.


----------



## DZ Crew (Sep 26, 2016)

DammitChrist said:


> Nah, this was a good substitute for Jon Moxley not being available atm.
> 
> The 60-minute match last night was the right call to make


No, it wasn't. You gassed the crowd for the rest of the night and the constant commercials are bad for match flow. Have this match on ppv when one guy can afford a loss and put Paige up against someone like Miro.


----------



## Blade Runner (Jan 24, 2012)

3venflow said:


> Great to see AEW have the balls to take 'ratings risks' (not that they are in any danger contrary to what some would hope and are on course for a bumper new deal) and put long, hard fought professional wrestling matches on free TV in the ADHD/*lowest common denominator generation.*


What does this even mean?


----------



## Erik. (Mar 17, 2014)

floyd2386 said:


> A big, PPV caliber match turned into a weekly TV show match with an anticlimactic finish?
> 
> Classic WCW bullshit.


What big, PPV calibre match did WCW provide you on free television that had an anticlimactic finish?


----------



## floyd2386 (Sep 28, 2010)

The XL 2 said:


> The AEW arena audience is hot for basically anything they do. Just like the ECW audience was. Doesn't mean it had any real heat with the majority of the viewership. It wasn't even that loud by established AEW crowd standards.
> 
> 
> 
> At least WCW didn't waste 60 minutes before boneing the audience with a terrible finish.


They chanted "holy shit" for a man sitting down for fuck's sake. Good point on WCW not wasting that much of our time.


----------



## Randy Lahey (Apr 14, 2014)

I’d have preferred Bryan win because I just think he’s a better all around performer than Page. I think Page is only the 5th-7th best guy AEW has, so I don’t really like having a guy that far down the totem pole hold the belt.

However, if the goal was to elevate Page so that he’s seen on the same work rate level as Omega/BD….then the draw makes perfect sense. Bc there’s lot of fans like me that don’t see Page on the level of the other guys, but you have him go 60 min with the best in the world and it gets easier to look at him as being on that level.

TK is brilliantly working into the psyche of wrestling fans the same mentality that UFC/Boxing have. Where if you get a great fight in boxing/ufc that ends in a draw, the whole crowd is cheering in the end with mutual respect for both guys. The fight itself is more important than the outcome. Bc the fight is what is going to sell the next PPV.

AEW is selling fights/action - not trying to sell storylines of what happens based on outcomes.

And that really is the big difference between WWE and AEW. It’s sports entertainment vs pro wrestling. And you saw it with last nights match. The match is the draw. Not the storylines involved. Just put 2 great workers in the ring, and have them give a great match. AEW really is a combination of New Japan wrestling wise,with and ECW core fanbase. It really isn’t for the wwe drones in here so they probably shouldn’t watch.


----------



## JeSeGaN (Jun 5, 2018)

Oh look, another overhype thread by an AEW superfan...

The match was decent. But it certainly was not as amazing as some here claim. It had zero heat and the draw was effing stupid.


----------



## AthleticGirth (Jul 25, 2020)

Really good back and forth match that got me totally invested. The pacing was spot on, which it needed to be for a 60 minute draw.

Only criticisms I have are the commercials and Hangman not winning, but yeah really enjoyed it.


----------



## Erik. (Mar 17, 2014)

Randy Lahey said:


> I’d have preferred Bryan win because I just think he’s a better all around performer than Page. I think Page is only the 5th-7th best guy AEW has, so I don’t really like having a guy that far down the totem pole hold the belt.
> 
> However, if the goal was to elevate Page so that he’s seen on the same work rate level as Omega/BD….then the draw makes perfect sense. Bc there’s lot of fans like me that don’t see Page on the level of the other guys, but you have him go 60 min with the best in the world and it gets easier to look at him as being on that level.
> 
> ...


I thought this summed it up rather well. 

Good post.


----------



## 3venflow (Feb 3, 2019)

After Omega and Okada went broadway at NJPW Dominion in 2017 their next major match (excluding one in the G1 tournament) one year later was 2/3 falls with no time limit. Given how some of AEW's booking patterns are influenced by New Japan, I wonder if they could go this route with Hanger and Danielson.

Alternatively, Omega vs. Hangman vs. Danielson writes itself. By both drawing with Danielson, Omega and Hangman find themselves linked again and that match would be huge. AEW doesn't do a lot of three way matches but the Omega vs. PAC vs. OC one was a critical success and you'd expect this to be even better.


----------



## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

Garty said:


> 100% agreed. After that match, what could they have done? A debut? Absolutely it would have helped liven up the crowd again, but that didn't happen either. For me, that second hour was a chore to watch.


i tweeted TK - said to never put the title match on first 

even if its a 60 min draw


----------



## DammitChrist (Apr 3, 2016)

I didn't make this comment, but I saw this post elsewhere and felt like sharing this here:



> This is part of the reprogramming AEW has to do with American audiences. I think they've pretty well establishing the time limit draw. If you've been watching from the beginning, you remember the Darby and Cody 20-minute draw at Fyter Fest 2019. And then we just had Dragon and Kenny go 30 in September. So, it's kind of like they were building, eventually, to their first 60-minute draw. You can chant "five more minutes", but getting a winner in that moment isn't what this is about. That match was a piece to a larger puzzle. And kudos to Hangman. We all know Danielson has 60 minutes in him, but this did a lot for Page. People are gonna have to start appreciating Adam Page for his wrestling and not just his complex, anxious millennial cowboy character. This man can go.


I think this comment by that anonymous person was very well-said


----------



## Tell it like it is (Jul 1, 2019)

Everyone in here with a nuanced take >> fools going draw bad, too much wrestling


----------



## ripcitydisciple (Dec 18, 2014)

Cooper09 said:


> These long ass matches ending in draws need to be outlawed. It's cheap, devoid of any balls to make a strong decision from Tony and it completely sucks ass. Want to make Hangman a strong champion, have him beat Danielson clean as a whistle.


Squirrel!!!!


----------



## Undertaker23RKO (Jun 11, 2011)

.christopher. said:


> Of course it does. Actually, not does, has. It's why after being in the highest rated segment in AEW history, he's now - more often than not - in the lowest. Or right near the bottom. It's no coincidence.


This is exactly the context-less garbage I'd expect as a response. I won't humor the bad takes anymore.


----------



## BrrrGoesWooo! (Mar 29, 2021)

Chip Chipperson said:


> That was actually a 45 minute time limit draw. Yeah, that one was pretty sweet and a great match but that was also 33 years ago, brother.


No need to reinvent the wheel. If it worked to make Sting 30 years ago, why wouldn't it work to make Hangman now? In the grand scheme of things wrestling hasn't changed that much in 30 years. Different wrestlers, different gimmicks, different music and production, but at the end of the day it's still two guys putting on a compelling match. That's wrestling at it's core isn't it?

Whether you think it's compelling or not I guess is up to you, but I know I was glued to the TV and started laughing like a maniac when It became clear that these two madmen were gonna go the distance, and was actually wondering if they'd draw or if Hangman would win and get the handshake and respect from Bryan, or if TK would be crazy enough to have Hangman lose in his first defence. 

This had a big match feel to it like you only get for a main event at WK, and you better believe they're gonna have a rematch down the line at a PPV.


----------



## BrrrGoesWooo! (Mar 29, 2021)

Forum Dud said:


> When that match finished it was the first time I looked at the rest of the card and asked myself: "Can I be bothered?". I was more entertained reacting with people on this forum in the show thread than I was actually watching it.


After the finish I looked at my mom and laughed. "Jfc, I feel bad for anybody having to follow that!"


----------



## .christopher. (Jan 14, 2014)

Undertaker23RKO said:


> This is exactly the context-less garbage I'd expect as a response. I won't humor the bad takes anymore.


Good. Don't respond to me again, champ.


----------



## Mr. King Of Kings (May 16, 2006)

Great match.


----------



## Passing Triangles (Feb 2, 2015)

Haven't seen it yet, but, how many finisher spam/kickouts were there?


----------



## chronoxiong (Apr 1, 2005)

It ended in a draw though. So it felt like a waste of 60 minutes.


----------



## BrrrGoesWooo! (Mar 29, 2021)

Undertaker23RKO said:


> How does it "kill someone" who doesn't look any worse now than he did before the match?


It doesn't at all I felt like this was that crazy brutal heel Bryan we've been seeing glimpses of since he's signed. No way does WWE let Bryan wrestle 60 minutes in a gruelling title match. 


.christopher. said:


> Because it's now TWICE on FREE TV where Bryan has failed to get the job done against geeks. Bryan came in as a star, now he's one of the boys who can only beat jobbers. Took him about TWENTY MINUTES to beat a jobber last week, too.
> 
> He 100% looks worse. A lot worse.


One of the best in-ring wrestlers in the world and the guy that beat him for the title. 

"Geeks."


----------



## BrrrGoesWooo! (Mar 29, 2021)

Joe Gill said:


> its like being forced to *LISTEN *to the fantasy booking of an online wrestling nerd with no real experience in booking.


FTFY


----------



## BrrrGoesWooo! (Mar 29, 2021)

bdon said:


> This.
> 
> Kenny and Bryan’s ending left a lot of questions in the air. Bryan and Page’s ending falls flat, because as an audience member (playing along in Kayfabe), you immediately know that Page would have won with another few seconds on the clock, and as an audience member (NOT playing along in Kayfabe), you now know that TK doesn’t believe his current and former champions were worthy of the honor of giving an L to Bryan.


Or it's telling you that a newly minted and untested champ can push it to the limit with one of the best wrestlers in the world and that you'll have to wait to see the payoff on PPV. 🤷‍♂️


----------



## BrrrGoesWooo! (Mar 29, 2021)

RapShepard said:


> You're just not smart enough to realize how this was actually a great move and high quality storytelling


For me at least this finish builds a lot of intrigue for a rematch on PPV, at Revolution or DoN after Page has had a couple other feuds and some time to fill the shoes of a champion. Maybe Bryan beats him, maybe he gets the seal of approval and respect for a hard fought victory? 

Gotta give things time with this company. If there's one thing TK doesn't do it's hotshot title changes.


----------



## midgetlover69 (Nov 27, 2016)

The funny thing about aew is when you realize this shit has gone for 20 minutes and they havent kicked out of multiple finishers yet you already know its going to be an hour long nothing "match"


----------



## A PG Attitude (Nov 5, 2012)

Passing Triangles said:


> Haven't seen it yet, but, how many finisher spam/kickouts were there?


Bryan didnt hit his finisher, Hangman hit his once.


----------



## Brodus Clay (Jan 6, 2012)

Damn Bryan keeps getting better in his craft amazing 60 minutes there.


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

Scuba Steve said:


> This is in a way criticizing the story before finishing it. Not that one isn't entitled to do so.
> 
> But the announcers alluded to a rematch and that would make a ton of sense for this story to get a part two. If Hanger cleanly wins the rematch then I believe it alters what you are getting at. I could also see the postmatch in the rematch ending in a handshake ala ROH and then Bryan in a Dynamite promo putting over Hanger for his heart, toughness and having earned his respect.


But if Hangman just wins the rematch, then there was no point to having it end in a draw with Hangman clearly on top. Literally no point, other than to give away the match on free television.


----------



## Prosper (Mar 25, 2015)

Peerless said:


> Even if it was a good match it was a waste of time. Going an hour just to give the fans a draw is awful booking and deserves to be shit on.


It wasn't a waste of time if you're a pro wrestling fan, simple as that. Looking at it as a waste of time just because of the outcome is the worse take/POV on your part. AEW is a work rate promotion, some of you really need to understand that. I do agree that a finish would have been the better road to take with Hangman getting the W, but to say that the whole thing was a waste of time given how great the match was shows that you don't actually care about what's going on in the ring. You're just looking for moments. And that's okay, but AEW might not be for you on a weekly basis.



Firefromthegods said:


> The time limit draw all but guarantees that hangman drops it at revolution. They will use this match as an excuse and maybe battle of the belts.
> 
> No way in hell does it kill Bryan though. I'm actually more interested in Bryan going forward after tonight. If you can craft a 60 minute match and make me pay attention the whole way through you're a top worker. I kid you not I didn't check my phone once. I did that during omega v Bryan.
> 
> Bryan was decent in wwe but this Bryan is fucking incredible. If he ends up in Suzuki gun or even wrestling sabre Jr I'll be thrilled


I wouldn't go that far. I don't see Hangman losing the gold until DON honestly. I don't think a 60 minute draw automatically equates to Hangman being confirmed to lose the title. If they were to have a rematch, I could see Hangman going over clean the 2nd time around in a shorter match that has a more hard hitting sense of urgency, maybe even with a gimiick attached.



RapShepard said:


> That was a meh match, that was overly long that the folk more on the pro AEW side are trying to convince themselves was epic to cover for the shit ending. You won't be watching this match years down the line lol.
> 
> There's a reason nobody is talking about their favorite moments and sequences in the match


Lol everything in ring in AEW is "meh" to you. 😂 If this was "meh" then what hasn't been this year?

No one is trying to convince themselves that it was a good match or not, if you genuinely enjoyed it like in my case then that's the energy that I'm gonna give out. If you feel differently then that is the energy you'll give out. @LifeInCattleClass of all people gave the show a 5/10 last night lol.



Erik. said:


> Seems to be quite the polarising match.
> 
> Most places I have seen via social media seem to be praising the match unanimously and on here, not so much. Which seems to be a common theme.
> 
> ...


Just another day on WF.



deadcool said:


> I detest reading any AEW leaks because I trust their booking especially long term. It was a great match. I feel that Hangman really stepped it up, Bryan was amazing like he always is. I don't get why people are so mad at the draw ending. Save the good stuff for the PPV.


There's no making wrestling fans happy in 2021. If Bryan had won, they don't take care of the home grown. If Hangman had won, they're burying one of their best guys and feeding him to someone that's "not on his level". If there was no time limit draw, again Bryan is buried. If there is a time limit draw...well I'm sure you've see the ridiculous takes in this thread.



Randy Lahey said:


> I’d have preferred Bryan win because I just think he’s a better all around performer than Page. I think Page is only the 5th-7th best guy AEW has, so I don’t really like having a guy that far down the totem pole hold the belt.
> 
> However, if the goal was to elevate Page so that he’s seen on the same work rate level as Omega/BD….then the draw makes perfect sense. Bc there’s lot of fans like me that don’t see Page on the level of the other guys, but you have him go 60 min with the best in the world and it gets easier to look at him as being on that level.
> 
> ...


This was well written. This is exactly what I touched on in the OP. This elevates Hangman as being on the same level in-ring and made him come off like a guy that could hang with the best. I thought that accomplished the goal tremendously if that's what they were going for. Like I said earlier, people need to realize that this is a work rate promotion and that you're not going to get the same booking that WWE has had them accustomed to or the booking that you would expect from different scenarios. This was different, they have never booked a 60 minute match in AEW until now, and I thought it was a great viewing experience. The fact that the match was ruined completely by some just due to the finish is crazy to me. I would have preferred a Hangman win, but this was also a great way to go about booking the match in my opinion.


----------



## RapShepard (Jun 20, 2014)

Prosper said:


> It wasn't a waste of time if you're a pro wrestling fan, simple as that. Looking at it as a waste of time just because of the outcome is the worse take/POV on your part. AEW is a work rate promotion, some of you really need to understand that. I do agree that a finish would have been the better road to take with Hangman getting the W, but to say that the whole thing was a waste of time given how great the match was shows that you don't actually care about what's going on in the ring. You're just looking for moments. And that's okay, but AEW might not be for you on a weekly basis.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The good shit is good, some shit is meh and sold off as good. You're also working kinda backwards if the champ still needs to be proven as somebody that's great and can hang with the best. That's should be a given especially given that was his story going into the Kenny match.


----------



## Prosper (Mar 25, 2015)

RapShepard said:


> The good shit is good, some shit is meh and sold off as good. You're also working kinda backwards if the champ still needs to be proven as somebody that's great and can hang with the best. That's should be a given especially given that was his story going into the Kenny match.


We already knew he could hang with Kenny after their match at Full Gear last year. The Hangman/Omega story was about him regaining his confidence after losing the Elite and stopping his drinking issue to work his way to the top. Omega and Bryan (someone who is regarded as the best in the industry by a lot of people) went 30 minutes with no winner, so if Hangman had beaten Bryan, then it shows that he's better than Omega, which I think would have made him too OP, despite the fact I still wanted Hangman to get the W. 

The champ needs to be proven because of who Bryan and Omega are in the eyes of the wrestling audience, those 2 are seen as the absolute best, Hangman being champ makes him the top guy but is he the best in ring? Can he beat who Omega couldn't? I think the 60 minute draw established him as being on that level. Bdon mentioned a Triple Threat feud in the future, which I think would work perfectly given how the Omega/Bryan and Hangman/Bryan matches went.


----------



## TheFiend666 (Oct 5, 2019)

Once again AEW fan boys defending anything...In other news water is wet


----------



## 3venflow (Feb 3, 2019)

TheFiend666 said:


> Once again AEW fan boys defending anything...In other news water is wet


Imagine people who watch a product enjoying a match catered towards fans of that product. You like your Firefly Fun House, we like our workrate matches. Different strokes and all.


----------



## Erik. (Mar 17, 2014)

3venflow said:


> Imagine people who watch a product enjoying a match catered towards fans of that product. You like your Firefly Fun House, we like our workrate matches. Different strokes and all.


Yeah, I've never really understood the annoyance.

AEW fan enjoys product provided. Gets called out on enjoying said product.

I don't venture into the WWE section often, are their hoards of AEW fans trolling WWE fans each week on the state of their show, match quality and booking?

Genuine question.


----------



## validreasoning (Jul 4, 2012)

Randy Lahey said:


> TK is brilliantly working into the psyche of wrestling fans the same mentality that UFC/Boxing have. Where if you get a great fight in boxing/ufc that ends in a draw, the whole crowd is cheering in the end with mutual respect for both guys. The fight itself is more important than the outcome. Bc the fight is what is going to sell the next PPV.
> 
> AEW is selling fights/action - not trying to sell storylines of what happens based on outcomes.


But I thought everyone here said AEW had the best storyline in 20 years with Omega and Page. 

If AEW, are selling fights then why only 4 ppvs a years and why aren't matches announced for ppvs months in advance like boxing or mma instead of AEWs two weeks or less before a show???? 



> And that really is the big difference between WWE and AEW. It’s sports entertainment vs pro wrestling. And you saw it with last nights match. The match is the draw. Not the storylines involved. Just put 2 great workers in the ring, and have them give a great match. AEW really is a combination of New Japan wrestling wise,with and ECW core fanbase. It really isn’t for the wwe drones in here so they probably shouldn’t watch.


This is hilarious. AEW is as much sports entertainment as WWE.

Let me guess you thought Orange Cassidy and Jericho was all about the match or Jericho and MJF, maybe that Broadway musical piece was just in my mind.

We have a fucking dinosaur prancing around and the Matt Hardy relocating and coming back to life, Ghostbusters and Stay Puffed in mainevent. Fuck me you are right just like combat sports

Hell Raw last year had a match that went 1 1/2 hours with the Seth Rollins guantlet. I guess that proves WWE is just like boxing lol


----------



## Klitschko (May 24, 2020)

Same people bitching about the draw finish to a classic 60 min match are probably the same people crapping on AEW for never ending matches with a DQ.


----------



## Prosper (Mar 25, 2015)

validreasoning said:


> This is hilarious. AEW is as much sports entertainment as WWE.
> 
> Let me guess you thought Orange Cassidy and Jericho was all about the match or Jericho and MJF, maybe that Broadway musical piece was just in my mind.
> 
> ...


[/QUOTE]

No this is hilarious. You're cherry picking segments that have happened months apart from each other. You thinking that one off comedy segments in AEW are as frequent as the weekly bullshit that's on RAW/SD is what's funny knowing how much of a WWE elitist you are. How many comedy segments do we get on a weekly basis on AEW through the duration of the 2 hours compared to the frequency of what is seen on RAW/SD weekly? The difference is pretty substantial, there is no comparison here. Jericho/MJF/IC/Pinnacle had an 8 month feud that was all serious outside of the Broadway musical and the whole feud for you was comedy/sports entertainment because of a segment that happened on one night over the 8 months. 95% of AEW is on a serious tone. 55% of WWE is on a serious tone. Lol you gotta do better if you're trying to prove a point like the one you're trying to prove. There's no way anyone rational can compare both companies and say that they have the same level of sports entertainment. Especially when one has a brand that had less than 10 minutes of wrestling over 2 hours for multiple weeks.


----------



## RapShepard (Jun 20, 2014)

Prosper said:


> We already knew he could hang with Kenny after their match at Full Gear last year. The Hangman/Omega story was about him regaining his confidence after losing the Elite and stopping his drinking issue to work his way to the top. Omega and Bryan (someone who is regarded as the best in the industry by a lot of people) went 30 minutes with no winner, so if Hangman had beaten Bryan, then it shows that he's better than Omega, which I think would have made him too OP, despite the fact I still wanted Hangman to get the W.
> 
> The champ needs to be proven because of who Bryan and Omega are in the eyes of the wrestling audience, those 2 are seen as the absolute best, Hangman being champ makes him the top guy but is he the best in ring? Can he beat who Omega couldn't? I think the 60 minute draw established him as being on that level. Bdon mentioned a Triple Threat feud in the future, which I think would work perfectly given how the Omega/Bryan and Hangman/Bryan matches went.


You want to establish having him beat both would've done just that. Would've really cemented how he'd arrive. Especially since he'd be doing it over Bryan and Omega. Sometimes the simple answer works. 

Or let Bryan kick his fucking head in and win and show he still has a level to reach for. But draw just eh. It can work, but after an hour just eh.


----------



## Prosper (Mar 25, 2015)

RapShepard said:


> You want to establish having him beat both would've done just that. Would've really cemented how he'd arrive. Especially since he'd be doing it over Bryan and Omega. Sometimes the simple answer works.
> 
> Or let Bryan kick his fucking head in and win and show he still has a level to reach for. But draw just eh. It can work, but after an hour just eh.


Yeah like I said I would have preferred the Hangman win personally, but I thought the draw accomplished almost the same thing, especially for those that appreciate work rate to the point that a finish like this every once in a while doesn't matter, but I feel you, I can definitely see how it can be deflating for some given the time people invested in the match. They made you think that Hangman would win in the final seconds after that Buckshot Lariat but nope lol.


----------



## PhenomenalOne11 (Oct 2, 2016)

I just didn't enjoy it personally, the match itself was fine but when you have me begging for the match to be over for over half of it then it's not doing its job for me, I feel it went 40 minutes too long. Quality over quantity, they could have easily done a solid 20 minute match and then also give more time to the rest of their roster. 

I just can't stand long matches, especially a free TV match going 60 minutes, it's not necessary is the thing, they didn't need to do it. There's exceptions of course like Angle vs Lesnar and Michaels vs Hart. But nah, if you can do a great match in 20 instead of 60, you do the 20 minute match.


----------



## 3venflow (Feb 3, 2019)

> This is hilarious. AEW is as much sports entertainment as WWE.


Hahahahaha. Not going to elaborate too much because Prosper covered it with the remarks about cherry picking segments spread across months. Someone will post the wedding, Broken Matt and the Ghostbusters cosplay without context, despite them being spread apart by god knows how many months. WWE does its goofy stuff every week.

AEW certainly DOES have sports-entertainment but to say it is as much it as WWE is hilarious. There's a ratio of pro wrestling/sports-entertainment and it's probably like 70/30 and 30/70.

AEW strayed further into the sports-entertainment realm last year to early this year but is the most straight-up pro wrestling of pro wrestling products on national TV in years. Probably as much as you can get away with on a national platform without going full-on ROH or NJPW.

We literally have people complaining about a lack of distinctive storylines on here, a lack of gimmicks, too much rasslin'. They just did a match that was a love letter to 80s U.S. pro wrestling and modern NJPW main events. AEW is, right now, more of an alternative than at any other point in its young history. No doubt it has its stupid shit, but it's pretty stripped down pro wrestling with the camera pointed at the ring most of the time.


----------



## DammitChrist (Apr 3, 2016)

Prosper said:


> No this is hilarious. You're cherry picking segments that have happened months apart from each other. You thinking that one off comedy segments in AEW are as frequent as the weekly bullshit that's on RAW/SD is what's funny knowing how much of a WWE elitist you are. How many comedy segments do we get on a weekly basis on AEW through the duration of the 2 hours compared to the frequency of what is seen on RAW/SD weekly? The difference is pretty substantial, there is no comparison here. Jericho/MJF/IC/Pinnacle had an 8 month feud that was all serious outside of the Broadway musical and the whole feud for you was comedy/sports entertainment because of a segment that happened on one night over the 8 months. 95% of AEW is on a serious tone. 55% of WWE is on a serious tone. Lol you gotta do better if you're trying to prove a point like the one you're trying to prove. There's no way anyone rational can compare both companies and say that they have the same level of sports entertainment. Especially when one has a brand that had less than 10 minutes of wrestling over 2 hours for multiple weeks.


At this point, if you’re a fan of professional wrestling that watches WWE nowadays, you’re better off watching NXT UK and PARTS of Raw (since I get some folks get worn out by the 3 hours  )


----------



## RapShepard (Jun 20, 2014)

Prosper said:


> Yeah like I said I would have preferred the Hangman win personally, but I thought the draw accomplished almost the same thing, especially for those that appreciate work rate to the point that a finish like this every once in a while doesn't matter, but I feel you, I can definitely see how it can be deflating for some given the time people invested in the match. They made you think that Hangman would win in the final seconds after that Buckshot Lariat but nope lol.


Plus for me unless it's like a Royal Rumble it's hard for me to stay invested in a match once it's past that 35 minute mark. Idk how to explain it, it just becomes kinda comical and cheesy lol. It just hits this thing where you can't try to convince me y'all are both dead tired, yet still hitting these gigantic moves and moments. There's only so many second winds to buy lol.


----------



## PhenomenalOne11 (Oct 2, 2016)

3venflow said:


> Hahahahaha. Not going to elaborate too much because Prosper covered it with the remarks about cherry picking segments spread across months. Someone will post the wedding, Broken Matt and the Ghostbusters cosplay without context, despite them being spread apart by god knows how many months. WWE does its goofy stuff every week.
> 
> AEW certainly DOES have sports-entertainment but to say it is as much it as WWE is hilarious. There's a ratio of pro wrestling/sports-entertainment and it's probably like 70/30 and 30/70.
> 
> ...


The issue is people continuing to act as if professional wrestling and sports entertainment are two different things when they're exactly the same. Pro wrestling is sports entertainment, sports entertainment is pro wrestling. Do some shows have less? Sure. But it's still the same thing at its core.


----------



## DammitChrist (Apr 3, 2016)

PhenomenalOne11 said:


> The issue is people continuing to act as if professional wrestling and sports entertainment are two different things when they're exactly the same. Pro wrestling is sports entertainment, sports entertainment is pro wrestling. Do some shows have less? Sure. But it's still the same thing at its core.


Nah, professional wrestling is way better than sports entertainment.


----------



## PhenomenalOne11 (Oct 2, 2016)

DammitChrist said:


> Nah, professional wrestling is way better than sports entertainment.


Can't be better if they're the same thing can they


----------



## Scuba Steve (Sep 29, 2021)

bdon said:


> But if Hangman just wins the rematch, then there was no point to having it end in a draw with Hangman clearly on top. Literally no point, other than to give away the match on free television.


With the rematch, it will end up being at least close to 90 minutes of in ring time if not more, and Bryan could not put Hanger away in that time if Hanger wins the rematch. 

It establishes heart and toughness and plays into why Hangman should be confident. It shows a guy who has proven can hang with the best wrestlers in the world...


----------



## 3venflow (Feb 3, 2019)

PhenomenalOne11 said:


> The issue is people continuing to act as if professional wrestling and sports entertainment are two different things when they're exactly the same. Pro wrestling is sports entertainment, sports entertainment is pro wrestling. Do some shows have less? Sure. But it's still the same thing at its core.


That's debatable but it's easy to use those terms to differentiate the theme of a product where:

Pro wrestling = "more wrestling, fewer eccentric storylines, the camera pointed at the ring for most of the show"
Sports entertainment = "a bigger emphasis on storylines, backstage antics, and fewer clean finishes"

Use other terms if you like, but that's the easiest way we have to define the two flavors of pro wrestling. Neither product is 100% of either when we set the baseline at say 1998 WWF = pure sports-entertainment, 1994 AJPW = pure pro wrestling, but they clearly lean to different sides. New Japan has shitty interference, DQs and run-ins but no one calls it 'sports-entertainment'.

And also look at the language used by a lot of wrestlers who have left WWE. "Time to be a pro wrestler again" and Punk's whole "I wasn't a wrestler during my WWE time". So there seems to be a perception _within_ the business of the two companies being different things. Vince created the sports-entertainment moniker so it has become associated with his style of product.

AEW also makes a point of calling itself pro wrestling and the 'home of pro wrestling' as a way to differentiate itself from the competition. That's consistent with it having more focus on the actual wrestling. The data is out there - a recent Rampage had more minutes of wrestling in one hour than Smackdown did in two.

Pre-2.0 NXT and current NXT UK are/were the exceptions to the WWE rule and pretty much are/were more pro wrestling than sports-entertainment using the above definitions.


----------



## Brad Boyd (Jan 28, 2020)

Well technically it wasn't an iron man match otherwise, they would've allowed multiple pin falls. And that wasn't made official. Overall it was okay, but I heard some of the fans getting kinda bored of it. It was a great match, mostly carried by Bryan, but did it have to go on that long? I don't think so.


----------



## yeahbaby! (Jan 27, 2014)

Great match but not to the standard of Bryan/Kenny, because Page clearly isn't at Kenny's level.

I could've watched Bryan Danielson do his thing for another 20 minutes. The guy is a master at everything, the psychology perfect, the storytelling, the pacing, the charisma. He rose above the 'he's too small' stigma a long time ago because he's believably dangerous in so many other ways.


----------



## Soul Rex (Nov 26, 2017)

3venflow said:


> That's debatable but it's easy to use those terms to differentiate the theme of a product where:
> 
> Pro wrestling = "more wrestling, fewer eccentric storylines, the camera pointed at the ring for most of the show"
> Sports entertainment = "a bigger emphasis on storylines, backstage antics, and fewer clean finishes"
> ...


Pro wrestling and sports entertainment are the same shit, same shit, same shit.


----------



## DammitChrist (Apr 3, 2016)

Soul Rex said:


> Pro wrestling and sports entertainment are the same shit, same shit, same shit.


Nah, professional wrestling is FAR superior to ‘sports entertainment.’

They are not the same at all.


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

RapShepard said:


> You want to establish having him beat both would've done just that. Would've really cemented how he'd arrive. Especially since he'd be doing it over Bryan and Omega. Sometimes the simple answer works.
> 
> Or let Bryan kick his fucking head in and win and show he still has a level to reach for. But draw just eh. It can work, but after an hour just eh.


Exactly. Either decision arrives at a better destination than simply having both men walk away to a draw.

Now…they’ll probably do a fuckery Triple Threat match (goddamn I hate this shit) that ends with Omega and Bryan “losing” to Page by default of beating the hell out of each other. More protecting of the characters BS.


----------



## RapShepard (Jun 20, 2014)

PhenomenalOne11 said:


> The issue is people continuing to act as if professional wrestling and sports entertainment are two different things when they're exactly the same. Pro wrestling is sports entertainment, sports entertainment is pro wrestling. Do some shows have less? Sure. But it's still the same thing at its core.


The whole thing reminds me of the pretentiousness exhibited in "real hip-hop" or "true gamers" fans.


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

RapShepard said:


> The whole thing reminds me of the pretentiousness exhibited in "real hip-hop" or "true gamers" fans.


Not really.

For me, “sports entertainment” is a subset of pro wrestling that defines the cartoony, invisible camera, backstage game-planning being spoken to a live audience like no one can hear. It’s true Soap Opera shit, acting as if the camera doesn’t exist.

Pro-wrestling focuses on the happenings in the ring. “Sports Entertainment” focuses on everything else with the action being used to break up the rest. Like any episode of Heels on STARZ has an equal amount of in-ring action to any random episode of Raw or SD.


----------



## RapShepard (Jun 20, 2014)

bdon said:


> Exactly. Either decision arrives at a better destination than simply having both men walk away to a draw.
> 
> Now…they’ll probably do a fuckery Triple Threat match (goddamn I hate this shit) that ends with Omega and Bryan “losing” to Page by default of beating the hell out of each other. More protecting of the characters BS.


You don't care for triple threats? (No sarcasm)


----------



## Soul Rex (Nov 26, 2017)

DammitChrist said:


> Nah, professional wrestling is FAR superior to ‘sports entertainment.’
> 
> They are not the same at all.


How can it be superior if it's the same thing? It's the same thing.

Call it pro wrestling, sports entertainment, pressing catch, fake fighting...Whatever the fuck you want, ít's the same shit..IT'S THE SAME SHIT.


----------



## DammitChrist (Apr 3, 2016)

Soul Rex said:


> How can it be superior if it's the same thing? It's the same thing.
> 
> Call it pro wrestling, sports entertainment, pressing catch, fake fighting.
> 
> Whatever the fuck you want, ít's the same shit..IT'S THE SAME SHIT.


It’s not the “same shit” though at all 

The difference between both of them has already been explained on here multiple times.

They aren’t the same.


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

RapShepard said:


> You don't care for triple threats? (No sarcasm)


Fuuuuuck nooooooo. They’re lazy, IMO, and end up being a one-on-one contest with guys just taking turns laying on the side of the ring watching for their spot to jump back in and give someone a breather. Great in-ring athletes should never be reduced to that lazy bullshit.

One exception being the Pac/OC/Omega triple threat, which I thought Pac and Omega crafted every spot beautifully to work around the idiocy of Orange Cassidy being involved. So instead of a lazy match where someone just laid around a lot, OC’s comedy of trying to sneak into steal the win of these two great athletes was comedy gold and added a real layer of psychology to it, so much so that I genuinely began to wonder if Khan was going to try and pull a swerve and give OC a fuckery win. Hah

But no, in most instances, I believe matches should always keep things simple: singles or tag, gimmick or not.

And unfortunately, I fully expect them to do a Triple Threat where Hangman gets the W, which protects both Kenny and Bryan for not losing to the other, and everyone involved knowing going into the match that even if Page wins, he is never going to mistaken for being as good in-ring as those two guys.

Which again…is lazy booking.


----------



## Soul Rex (Nov 26, 2017)

DammitChrist said:


> It’s not the “same shit” though at all
> 
> The difference between both of them has already been explained on here multiple times.
> 
> They aren’t the same.


Are you going to continue quoting me just so I repeat to you that its same shit? Because I can do this all night.

Sports entertainment is a term invented by Vince Mcmahon to make pro-wrestling sound more fancy, it's a nickname, not another pseudo sport.

Sports entertainment is a term invented by Vince Mcmahon to make pro-wrestling sound more fancy, it's a nickname, not another pseudo sport.

Sports entertainment is a term invented by Vince Mcmahon to make pro-wrestling sound more fancy, it's a nickname, not another pseudo sport.

Sports entertainment is a term invented by Vince Mcmahon to make pro-wrestling sound more fancy, it's a nickname, not another pseudo sport.


----------



## DammitChrist (Apr 3, 2016)

Soul Rex said:


> Are you going to continue quoting me just so I repeat to you that its same shit? Because I can do this all night.
> 
> Sports entertainment is a term invented by Vince Mcmahon to make pro-wrestling sound more fancy, it's a nickname, not another pseudo sport.
> 
> ...


Yea, I don’t think you repeated yourself enough times here because both terms are still *not* the same.


----------



## Soul Rex (Nov 26, 2017)

DammitChrist said:


> Yea, I don’t think you repeated yourself enough times here because both terms are still *not* the same.


Yes, the thing is the same becuse:

Sports entertainment is a term invented by Vince Mcmahon to make pro-wrestling sound more fancy, it's a nickname, not another pseudo sport.


----------



## PhenomenalOne11 (Oct 2, 2016)

DammitChrist said:


> It’s not the “same shit” though at all
> 
> The difference between both of them has already been explained on here multiple times.
> 
> They aren’t the same.


All pro wrestling is sports entertainment. You may not like that fact but it's a fact, choose to go about that however you like. If you wanna ignore it that's cool, doesn't change the facts. All pro wrestling is a form of sports entertainment, all of it


----------



## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

Prosper said:


> It wasn't a waste of time if you're a pro wrestling fan, simple as that. Looking at it as a waste of time just because of the outcome is the worse take/POV on your part.


A wise man who has made a whole heap of money in the wrestling business once said "The fans don't remember anything but the finish"



3venflow said:


> Imagine people who watch a product enjoying a match catered towards fans of that product. You like your Firefly Fun House, we like our workrate matches. Different strokes and all.


Ah yes, the AEW superfan special.

"You don't like 60 minute workrate classics? Well go and enjoy your cartoony bullshit then, pal!"

Can it maybe...just maybe be possible that people can enjoy a 5-10 minute wrestling match AND not like the cartoon stuff?



3venflow said:


> Hahahahaha. Not going to elaborate too much because Prosper covered it with the remarks about cherry picking segments spread across months.


Since the PPV:






Sports entertainment style with sports entertainment character






62 year old Sting beats a 30 year old, this is the type of thing WWE has been criticised for over 10 years now






Orange Cassidy getting his ass kicked because he's too stupid to put his hands up for a fight and instead put them in his pockets because funny






Bryan Danielson in a main event feud with a bunch of clown cult members.

---

Then there's stuff like Trent's mum Sue being involved with CHAOS, Orange Cassidy having staredowns with Adam Cole, Cody being cringe etc.




DammitChrist said:


> Nah, professional wrestling is FAR superior to ‘sports entertainment.’
> 
> They are not the same at all.


If this were true how come NJPW and ROH are not the premier wrestling organisations on earth?


----------



## DammitChrist (Apr 3, 2016)

PhenomenalOne11 said:


> All pro wrestling is sports entertainment. You may not like that fact but it's a fact, choose to go about that however you like. If you wanna ignore it that's cool, doesn't change the facts. All pro wrestling is a form of sports entertainment, all of it


Nah, I don't like that "fact" because it's false and it's definitely not the "truth" at all.

Professional wrestling is far superior to 'sports entertainment,' and last night was a perfect example with that outstanding 60-minute wrestling match


----------



## PhenomenalOne11 (Oct 2, 2016)

DammitChrist said:


> Nah, I don't like that "fact" because it's false and it's definitely not the "truth" at all.
> 
> Professional wrestling is far superior to 'sports entertainment,' and last night was a perfect example with that outstanding 60-minute wrestling match


Sports entertainment is just a word Vince McMahon came up with because he didn't want to call it pro wrestling, there's no distinguishable difference. I understand you have to keep up your elitist facade but you're not dumb enough to think that they're different. 

Every wrestling company is sports entertainment. WWE, AEW, Impact, ROH, NJPW, GCW.


----------



## PhenomenalOne11 (Oct 2, 2016)

Chip Chipperson said:


> A wise man who has made a whole heap of money in the wrestling business once said "The fans don't remember anything but the finish"
> 
> 
> 
> ...


These points aren't going to get through to them because they have built up this idea in their head that pro wrestling is different from sports entertainment when all sports entertainment is, is just a term Vince came up with because he didn't want to call it pro wrestling to be more favourable with TV networks. 

I can't understand treating pro wrestling like a sport and how these guys are "artists" and that pro wrestling is an art form.......no they're just actors on TV, nothing else. It's fake fighting, not art.


----------



## RapShepard (Jun 20, 2014)

bdon said:


> Fuuuuuck nooooooo. They’re lazy, IMO, and end up being a one-on-one contest with guys just taking turns laying on the side of the ring watching for their spot to jump back in and give someone a breather. Great in-ring athletes should never be reduced to that lazy bullshit.
> 
> One exception being the Pac/OC/Omega triple threat, which I thought Pac and Omega crafted every spot beautifully to work around the idiocy of Orange Cassidy being involved. So instead of a lazy match where someone just laid around a lot, OC’s comedy of trying to sneak into steal the win of these two great athletes was comedy gold and added a real layer of psychology to it, so much so that I genuinely began to wonder if Khan was going to try and pull a swerve and give OC a fuckery win. Hah
> 
> ...


I feel you on the guy laying outside bit, it's actually kind of funny the random nonsense you got to let slide for certain gimmick matches to work. Like it always makes me laugh how in a Survivor Series (or multi man elimination) matches, suddenly literally any move is legit able to get a pinfall for elimination.


----------



## DammitChrist (Apr 3, 2016)

PhenomenalOne11 said:


> Sports entertainment is just a word Vince McMahon came up with because he didn't want to call it pro wrestling, there's no distinguishable difference. I understand you have to keep up your elitist facade but you're not dumb enough to think that they're different.
> 
> Every wrestling company is sports entertainment. WWE, AEW, Impact, ROH, NJPW, GCW.


Nah, WWE is focused on being a 'sports entertainment' company whereas wrestling promotions like AEW and NJPW actually focus on professional wrestling.

They're not even close to being the same.


----------



## BrrrGoesWooo! (Mar 29, 2021)

yeahbaby! said:


> Great match but not to the standard of Bryan/Kenny, because Page clearly isn't at Kenny's level.
> 
> I could've watched Bryan Danielson do his thing for another 20 minutes. The guy is a master at everything, the psychology perfect, the storytelling, the pacing, the charisma. He rose above the 'he's too small' stigma a long time ago because he's believably dangerous in so many other ways.


 Page is 30, dude's got time to grow.


----------



## PhenomenalOne11 (Oct 2, 2016)

DammitChrist said:


> Nah, WWE is focused on being a 'sports entertainment' company whereas wrestling promotions like AEW and NJPW actually focus on professional wrestling.
> 
> They're not even close to being the same.


AEW and NJPW are still sports entertainment, just like WWE is still pro wrestling. I know you want to sound like a wrestling purist but there's no difference.


----------



## CM Buck (Sep 2, 2012)

.christopher. said:


> I ain't gonna bait you, mate.
> 
> First, everyone knows they are goofs.
> 
> ...


I meant show me the ratings. I was being funny. Cause I hate the ratings thread


----------



## DammitChrist (Apr 3, 2016)

PhenomenalOne11 said:


> AEW and NJPW are still sports entertainment, just like WWE is still pro wrestling. I know you want to sound like a wrestling purist but there's no difference.


Nah, AEW and NJPW are BOTH *professional wrestling* companies.


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

PhenomenalOne11 said:


> These points aren't going to get through to them because they have built up this idea in their head that pro wrestling is different from sports entertainment when all sports entertainment is, is just a term Vince came up with because he didn't want to call it pro wrestling to be more favourable with TV networks.
> 
> I can't understand treating pro wrestling like a sport and how these guys are "artists" and that pro wrestling is an art form.......no they're just actors on TV, nothing else. It's fake fighting, not art.


Keep pretending that a WWE show feels the same as every other wrestling show, pal.


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

Chip Chipperson said:


> A wise man who has made a whole heap of money in the wrestling business once said "The fans don't remember anything but the finish"
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You’re not wrong, which is why I have not watched a full show since the PPV when they opened the began opening shows with promos and shit. I called a major difference in feel to the show. Feels like a major shift to WWE-lite show, heavy on the Bryan and Cody booking decisions.


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

RapShepard said:


> I feel you on the guy laying outside bit, it's actually kind of funny the random nonsense you got to let slide for certain gimmick matches to work. Like it always makes me laugh how in a Survivor Series (or multi man elimination) matches, suddenly literally any move is legit able to get a pinfall for elimination.


Exactly why I loved Orange Cassidy’s inclusion in that Pac vs Kenny match. Those two guys being the phenomenal storytellers that they are made Cassidy’s part in the match make total sense. There is ALWAYS a third guy laying around dead, so why NOT use Cassidy’s careless attitude to stand in that spot and WATCH IT MAKE FUCKING SENSE!


----------



## Greatsthegreats (Apr 15, 2015)

Bryan is gambling with his life


----------



## thorn123 (Oct 10, 2019)

The critics of the match are just reinforcing the stereotype of modern society with lack of attention span.


----------



## Soul Rex (Nov 26, 2017)

DammitChrist said:


> Nah, AEW and NJPW are BOTH *professional wrestling* companies.


Yeah, they both do *sports entertainment,* because *professional wrestling* is *sports entertainment.*

I'm sure you will get it once you read it enough, lets keep this all week.


----------



## validreasoning (Jul 4, 2012)

Prosper said:


> No this is hilarious. You're cherry picking segments that have happened months apart from each other. You thinking that one off comedy segments in AEW are as frequent as the weekly bullshit that's on RAW/SD is what's funny knowing how much of a WWE elitist you are. How many comedy segments do we get on a weekly basis on AEW through the duration of the 2 hours compared to the frequency of what is seen on RAW/SD weekly? The difference is pretty substantial, there is no comparison here. Jericho/MJF/IC/Pinnacle had an 8 month feud that was all serious outside of the Broadway musical and the whole feud for you was comedy/sports entertainment because of a segment that happened on one night over the 8 months. 95% of AEW is on a serious tone. 55% of WWE is on a serious tone. Lol you gotta do better if you're trying to prove a point like the one you're trying to prove. There's no way anyone rational can compare both companies and say that they have the same level of sports entertainment. Especially when one has a brand that had less than 10 minutes of wrestling over 2 hours for multiple weeks.


The number of 'comedy segments' is completely irrelevant. Using this logic the best pure pro wrestling on TV is 205 live and Mainevent as those shows are just a bunch of matches with no angles or skits every week or Raw and SD is more pro wrestling now than 20 years ago because there is more in-ring stuff today than back then...

AEW being 95% serious is laughable. Its a show that has NO RULES during its matches for one. Real combat sports have rules. 

Real combat sports don't have flaming tables or guys being dropped off in middle of mainevent by their mother in a minivan or matches involving lego or weddings or orange juice matches or guys in panda suits or weiner comedy on the tron. 

AEW is an extension of the modern 'sports entertainment' genre thats existed on US TV since 1984 that includes WCW, TNA, ECW, WWE and a plethora of smaller feds. Its far removed from what pro wrestling was like in 1900-1940 especially the likes the Gotch, Hackensmidt, Lewis, Thesz etc. Its not even same business imo.

Btw if AEW aren't sports entertainment why the fuck are they signing everyone and their mother from WWE then. That shit makes makes no logical sense. If I hire dozens of 'sports entertainers' it's because I want to produce 'sports entertainment'.


----------



## La Parka (Oct 28, 2008)

AEW fans really gotta let go of the “AEW is pro rasslin and WWE is sports entertainment” argument.

It was a moot point day one when they had that gimmick battle royal with glacier “freezing” people and a guy putting oil on himself.


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

I don’t even mind goofiness in wrestling. What I can’t stand is 20 minute promos and soap opera/movie-style cutscenes of backstage discussions being held where strategies are discussed and divised as if the cameraman isn’t right there filming the shit for everyone to see.

And it doesn’t go unnoticed that the ratings seem to be dropping the more they’ve used WWE-style television since the acquisition of Bryan. The entire show has felt like it had Cody and Bryan’s hands all over it.


----------



## Erik. (Mar 17, 2014)

bdon said:


> I don’t even mind goofiness in wrestling. What I can’t stand is 20 minute promos and soap opera/movie-style cutscenes of backstage discussions being held where strategies are discussed and divised as if the cameraman isn’t right there filming the shit for everyone to see.


It's a good point. 

The more than show starts showing WWE tendencies of long promos and more soap opera style bullshit, the more they'll drive their fans away because no one wants to see that anymore outside of the million plus that have the WWEs cock firmly in their mouth. 

I'd dread what would happen if they started bringing in DQs, 50/50 booking and constant rematches.


----------



## THANOS (Jun 20, 2006)

Not sure if posted but 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1471358443986427904


----------



## Nacho Esqueleto (Aug 5, 2021)

.christopher. said:


> It doesn't matter if Bryan gets the belt then. He isn't hot anymore. The aura he had coming into AEW along with the hype is gone. He is just one of the guys now.


You must be watching a different Bryan Danielson to me then because he is the best wrestler on the planet right now.
He can put on a high quality match with anyone.


----------



## THANOS (Jun 20, 2006)

RapShepard said:


> That was a meh match, that was overly long that the folk more on the pro AEW side are trying to convince themselves was epic to cover for the shit ending. You won't be watching this match years down the line lol.
> 
> There's a reason nobody is talking about their favorite moments and sequences in the match


Well the quarter hour ratings indicate it grew viewers throughout and was definitely the high point of the show doing well over 1M viewers and topping the 18-49 demo, despite dealing with the West Coast start time issues.

So I would say a lot of the opinions shared on this site seem to differ from the consensus.

Also, to each their own, but calling that match "meh" means you have a match quality opinion I don't think I can ever take seriously.


----------



## RapShepard (Jun 20, 2014)

THANOS said:


> Well the quarter hour ratings indicate it grew viewers throughout and was definitely the high point of the show doing well over 1M viewers and topping the 18-49 demo, despite dealing with the West Coast start time issues.
> 
> So I would say a lot of the opinions shared on this site seem to differ from the consensus.
> 
> Also, to each their own, but calling that match "meh" means you have a match quality opinion I don't think I can ever take seriously.


The chart also shows people tuned the fuck out at one point then came back for the finish of we're telling the whole story. 

That match was meh and pretending other wise is a shining example of the need to use hyperbole to rate any and everything in 2021. This isn't a match anybody will be booting up for rewatches for years to come.


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

THANOS said:


> Well the quarter hour ratings indicate it grew viewers throughout and was definitely the high point of the show doing well over 1M viewers and topping the 18-49 demo, despite dealing with the West Coast start time issues.
> 
> So I would say a lot of the opinions shared on this site seem to differ from the consensus.
> 
> Also, to each their own, but calling that match "meh" means you have a match quality opinion I don't think I can ever take seriously.


That match in 20-25 minutes is GREAT. That was not a 60 minute match, though.

But you have to take into consideration that 60 minute time-limit draws are reserved for the very best of the very best. Omega, Steamboat, Flair, Okada, Bret, Shawn…

The two participants in that match are great in their own right, but they just showed Wednesday that their match quality does dip the further it goes.


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

RapShepard said:


> The chart also shows people tuned the fuck out at one point then came back for the finish of we're telling the whole story.
> 
> That match was meh and pretending other wise is a shining example of the need to use hyperbole to rate any and everything in 2021. *This isn't a match anybody will be booting up for rewatches for years to come. *


Kenny vs Pac time-limit draw and sudden death on Dynamite, I have rewatched at least 6 times off the top of my head. Kenny vs Bryan, I rewatched that match 4 times in the first 2 days alone. I have watched the ENTIRE SERIES of Kenny vs Okada 4-5 times. I’ve watched Bret and Shawn’s 60 minute bout multiple times. I have watched Sting vs Flair’s time limit draw a dozen or so times in my life. And if I knew how, I’d watch all of Flair and Steamboat multiple times.

Bryan and Page are very good workers with Bryan being phenomenal, but he showed Wednesday night that he, nor Page, are wired for 60 minute classics. It was a fun match, but it wasn’t even as good as Pac vs Omega.

Thing is, to go 60, you have to be super creative with your spots acting as small chapters in the novel you and your partner are writing in the ring. Bryan and Page should have kept things to 20 minutes, 30-35 tops.


----------



## 3venflow (Feb 3, 2019)

RapShepard said:


> That match was meh and pretending other wise


'Pretending otherwise' is a pretty arrogant take, Rap, since it basically says 'my way is the right way' and ignores the widespread love its getting. You have a bad habit of labelling anyone who calls anything from AEW great as fanboys or guilty of 'hyperbole'. Maybe they are putting on match quality that appeals to the type of fans the product was designed for from day one.

Some people on here are hellbent on AEW being catered to _their_ needs and post the same criticisms every week instead of finding a product that does cater to _their _needs. This is one of the best in-ring years from an American product in memory so it shouldn't be hard to understand why many people value it. It may not have the captivating stories of the 90s or the star power of the early to mid 2000s, but it has had an impressive number of great matches. And with great writing nonexistent in pro wrestling (and an even bigger challenge now that the quality of TV shows has shot up), that's worth something.

GRAPPL and Cagematch, where many people of many different interests in wrestling vote on matches, have it as one of the best matches of the year. Twitter loved it from what I can tell, Wreddit loved it. Are you going to demean all of those (one of which has a WWE match as the best of the 2020s) as fanboys?

As someone who has watched wrestling from all around the world for many years, I consider it a great match. Not on the level of the best modern NJPW main events, but a sublimely worked broadway that critics of modern wrestling (lack of selling and psychology, too spotty) should watch.

Even the Cauliflower Alley Club, an old school minded group, recommended it.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1471683837851992068


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

3venflow said:


> 'Pretending otherwise' is a pretty arrogant take, Rap, since it basically says 'my way is the right way' and ignores the widespread love its getting. You have a bad habit of labelling anyone who calls anything from AEW great as fanboys or guilty of 'hyperbole'. Maybe they are putting on match quality that appeals to the type of fans the product was designed for from day one.
> 
> Some people on here are hellbent on AEW being catered to _their_ needs and post the same criticisms every week instead of finding a product that does cater to _their _needs. This is one of the best in-ring years from an American product in memory so it shouldn't be hard to understand why many people value it. It may not have the captivating stories of the 90s or the star power of the early to mid 2000s, but it has had an impressive number of great matches. And with great writing nonexistent in pro wrestling (and an even bigger challenge now that the quality of TV shows has shot up), that's worth something.
> 
> ...


And yet, Uncle Dave only rated the match 5 stars. The same 5 stars that Kenny and Bryan were awarded in half the time and less than the 5.5 stars that Kenny and Hangman were warded in EVEN LESS than half of the time.

I am being purposely nit-picky, but if you’re going to go 60 minutes, you have to be delivering a potential match of the decade. Anyone willing to argue that this was definitely better than either wrestler’s last match with Kenny IN THE LAST 6 MONTHS..?

They decided to have Bryan and Page go Broadway for no other reason than to go Broadway. The same match could have been done in far less time, which has been proven by each guy LESS THAN 6 MONTHS AGO.


----------



## THANOS (Jun 20, 2006)

RapShepard said:


> The chart also shows people tuned the fuck out at one point then came back for the finish of we're telling the whole story.
> 
> That match was meh and pretending other wise is a shining example of the need to use hyperbole to rate any and everything in 2021. This isn't a match anybody will be booting up for rewatches for years to come.


I disagree with your second point. This was a classic imo and the consensus is more in-line with my pov than your own. Maybe not on this site with the vocal minority posters, but elsewhere on Reddit, Social Media, Ratings Breakdown, Podcasts, the large majority pov matches my own.

For the 1st point, it's a 60 min match, 1 quarter out of 4 losing a bit of viewers before a massive growth, likely coinciding with the West Coast viewers getting home from work, is the story of the breakdown. 1 quarter losing a bit for fans to take a piss break or W/E does not matter on the grand scheme of it.


----------



## THANOS (Jun 20, 2006)

bdon said:


> That match in 20-25 minutes is GREAT. That was not a 60 minute match, though.
> 
> But you have to take into consideration that 60 minute time-limit draws are reserved for the very best of the very best. Omega, Steamboat, Flair, Okada, Bret, Shawn…
> 
> The two participants in that match are great in their own right, but they just showed Wednesday that their match quality does dip the further it goes.


I completely disagree with this take. Bryan Danielson to a large majority belongs in that group you listed, and, too many, is THE GOAT in-ring. Quite a few podcasts including Busted Open have been saying that since the match. In my opinion, he's right there with Omega, Okada, etc and better than Bret, Shawn, Steamboat, Flair but that's just my opinion.


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

THANOS said:


> I completely disagree with this take. Bryan Danielson to a large majority belongs in that group you listed, and, too many, is THE GOAT in-ring. Quite a few podcasts including Busted Open have been saying that since the match. In my opinion, he's right there with Omega, Okada, etc and better than Bret, Shawn, Steamboat, Flair but that's just my opinion.


And yet, he was given 60 mins and couldn’t muster a better match with Page than Omega did in 26 minutes.


----------



## THANOS (Jun 20, 2006)

bdon said:


> And yet, Uncle Dave only rated the match 5 stars. The same 5 stars that Kenny and Bryan were awarded in half the time and less than the 5.5 stars that Kenny and Hangman were warded in EVEN LESS than half of the time.
> 
> I am being purposely nit-picky, but if you’re going to go 60 minutes, you have to be delivering a potential match of the decade. Anyone willing to argue that this was definitely better than either wrestler’s last match with Kenny IN THE LAST 6 MONTHS..?
> 
> They decided to have Bryan and Page go Broadway for no other reason than to go Broadway. The same match could have been done in far less time, which has been proven by each guy LESS THAN 6 MONTHS AGO.


I won't argue that it was better than either performer's match with Kenny, but is that being argued? 

Just because it wasn't as good as those 2 phenomenal matches doesn't mean it's not a classic.

Meltzer has handed out *** matches a lot the past few years, but that still doesn't mean he doesn't view a *** match as a classic, because he does.


----------



## THANOS (Jun 20, 2006)

bdon said:


> And yet, he was given 60 mins and couldn’t muster a better match with Page than Omega did in 26 minutes.


Again that's your opinion and Meltzer's opinion, but what does that matter? A fantastic dinner from 2 different restaurants with 1 tasting a bit better to you doesn't mean that they both weren't still fantastic.

Why does it need to be better than Kenny/Bryan or Kenny/Hangman to be a classic match?


----------



## Erik. (Mar 17, 2014)

bdon said:


> And yet, he was given 60 mins and couldn’t muster a better match with Page than Omega did in 26 minutes.


Isn't that opinion based though?

I don't think anything Omega or Bryan have done or will do is better than Bret Hart vs. Stone Cold. 

I reckon you'd disagree.


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

THANOS said:


> Again that's your opinion and Meltzer's opinion, but what does that matter? A fantastic dinner from 2 different restaurants with 1 tasting a bit better to you doesn't mean that they both weren't still fantastic.
> 
> Why does it need to be better than Kenny/Bryan or Kenny/Hangman to be a classic match?


It matters, because if I’m going to pay $250 for a mealthat I had to book reservations weeks in advance for, then I expect to get a meal a little classier and better tasting than one I could have got at Longhorn.

The $250 meal I waited for weeks to eat can still be good, but that doesn’t change the fact I feel cheated that I could have got the same or better at a chain restaurant without having to wait as long.

And before you say it, I understand that was a free match on Dynamite, but we still invested more time into it with diminishing returns. These two are not 60-minute bout guys, and they proved that. So to backtrack to Rap’s point, it was lengthy for the sake of being lengthy.


Erik. said:


> Isn't that opinion based though?
> 
> I don't think anything Omega or Bryan have done or will do is better than Bret Hart vs. Stone Cold.
> 
> I reckon you'd disagree.


But that’s two different styles of match. Bryan vs Page was aimed at the exact kind of audience that worships Kenny Omega, because the entire point of the 60 minutes was to try and elevate Page onto Kenny’s level as a performer.

They could have got 5 stars out of the two guys in half the time. They proved diminishing returns.


----------



## RapShepard (Jun 20, 2014)

3venflow said:


> 'Pretending otherwise' is a pretty arrogant take, Rap, since it basically says 'my way is the right way' and ignores the widespread love its getting. You have a bad habit of labelling anyone who calls anything from AEW great as fanboys or *guilty of 'hyperbole'.* Maybe they are putting on match quality that appeals to the type of fans the product was designed for from day one.
> 
> Some people on here are hellbent on AEW being catered to _their_ needs and post the same criticisms every week instead of finding a product that does cater to _their _needs. This is one of the best in-ring years from an American product in memory so it shouldn't be hard to understand why many people value it. It may not have the captivating stories of the 90s or the star power of the early to mid 2000s, but it has had an impressive number of great matches. And with great writing nonexistent in pro wrestling (and an even bigger challenge now that the quality of TV shows has shot up), that's worth something.
> 
> ...


Future reference tone is mostly friendly shit talk. Like I don't doubt for a second folk enjoy watching AEW after all we all watch it every week and discuss it at length. But yeah when we're delving into calling shit classic on a weekly basis that's hyperbolic. Like if I told you every new Drake single might be his best yet, eventually you're going to note that "I enjoy Drake, but tend to exaggerate a bit".


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

RapShepard said:


> Future reference tone is mostly friendly shit talk. Like I don't doubt for a second folk enjoy watching AEW after all we all watch it every week and discuss it at length. But yeah when we're delving into calling shit classic on a weekly basis that's hyperbolic. Like if I told you every new Drake single might be his best yet, eventually you're going to note that "I enjoy Drake, but tend to exaggerate a bit".


But every next Kenny match really is the next greatest match ever!!!! Lol


----------



## RapShepard (Jun 20, 2014)

THANOS said:


> I disagree with your second point. This was a *classic* imo and the consensus is more in-line with my pov than your own. Maybe not on this site with the vocal minority posters, but elsewhere on Reddit, Social Media, Ratings Breakdown, Podcasts, the large majority pov matches my own.
> 
> For the 1st point, it's a 60 min match, 1 quarter out of 4 losing a bit of viewers before a massive growth, likely coinciding with the West Coast viewers getting home from work, is the story of the breakdown. 1 quarter losing a bit for fans to take a piss break or W/E does not matter on the grand scheme of it.


And this is my point in another post, that word is thrown around so loosely it's hard to take serious. Apparently modern wrestling is seeing multiple classic matches every week and that's just a ridiculous thing to say. What's wrong with the match just being cool lol


----------



## RapShepard (Jun 20, 2014)

bdon said:


> But every next Kenny match really is the next greatest match ever!!!! Lol


Lmao well fair enough


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

RapShepard said:


> And this is my point in another post, that word is thrown around so loosely it's hard to take serious. Apparently modern wrestling is seeing multiple classic matches every week and that's just a ridiculous thing to say. What's wrong with the match just being cool lol


For a 60-minute match, it is a bit of a letdown. If you go 60, then you need to be delivering a potential match of the decade. Otherwise, you’re entering Cody rHHHodes territory of self-fellating.

I mean, can you imagine if WWE decided for Roman to go 60-minutes with Brock or The Rock? We’d all see right through the bullshit and agree that he shouldn’t be going 60 minutes.

They ONLY went 60 minutes, because they want to live on the legacy of Kenny Omega. Not everyone is Kenny Omega. Let guys be themselves. Page and Bryan could have had the same 5 star classic in 20-25 minutes. So watching a 5 star classic for SIXTY minutes becomes a lesson in Cody rHHHodes self-fellating, look-at-me bullshit.


----------



## 3venflow (Feb 3, 2019)

bdon said:


> The same 5 stars that Kenny and Bryan were awarded in half the time and less than the 5.5 stars that Kenny and Hangman were warded in EVEN LESS than half of the time.


So? Five stars is still five stars, which means DAMN GOOD in any language. He also implied he'd have gone higher if not for the ads.

Both were outstanding matches, why does it have to be either/or? They can exist independently of one another as great pro wrestling matches. It's also harder to keep up quality for 60 minutes than 30 minutes. Okada vs. Omega was better than Hangman vs. Danielson as a 60 minute match but that's not a knock on the latter.



> I am being purposely nit-picky, but if you’re going to go 60 minutes, you have to be delivering a potential match of the decade.


That's a lofty expectation since most 60 minute draws in history haven't been the match of the decade. And in the present era, where in-ring quality is probably the best it has ever been (if not the rest of pro wrestling), then it's harder to have a standout match of the decade.



> They could have got 5 stars out of the two guys in half the time. They proved diminishing returns.


But if he wanted the draw, maybe for long-term booking purposes (ie. rematch on big show, three-way match with Kenny) or maybe for brand identity purposes ("AEW is the home of professional wrestling!") then he had two options - the time limit or a double KO. People talk about 60 minute matches for a long time after. AEW doing a DQ or countout finish would be a betrayal of paying fans who the company has conditioned not to expect them (so if you want to do DQs or countouts in big matches you have to ease them in product-wide first).

Hangman vs. Moxley was the original plan anyway, and I doubt Khan wants AmDrag beaten yet.


----------



## .christopher. (Jan 14, 2014)

Nacho Esqueleto said:


> You must be watching a different Bryan Danielson to me then because he is the best wrestler on the planet right now.
> He can put on a high quality match with anyone.


Two completely different things.

Bryan Danielson IS undisputedly the best wrestler in the world right now. No one else comes close.

He also ISN'T hot anymore. His buzz upon arrival has evaporated due to his booking.


----------



## RapShepard (Jun 20, 2014)

bdon said:


> For a 60-minute match, it is a bit of a letdown. If you go 60, then you need to be delivering a potential match of the decade. Otherwise, you’re entering Cody rHHHodes territory of self-fellating.


Truth is most just aren't built for that, 60 minutes is a fuck ton of time to fill with just wrestling.


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

3venflow said:


> That's a lofty expectation since most 60 minute draws in history haven't been the match of the decade. And in the present era, where in-ring quality is probably the best it has ever been (if not the rest of pro wrestling), then it's harder to have a standout match of the decade.


Name the amount of times a 60-minute match was done on free TV? If you’re going to do it, then you need to deliver in a massive way. Failure to even outdo 2 similar matches less than 6 months ago that required less time reeks of trying to force something.

It’s akin to what the WWE were doing in trying to force fans to accept Roman as the next Cena/Rock-level babyface.


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

RapShepard said:


> Truth is most just aren't built for that, 60 minutes is a fuck ton of time to fill with just wrestling.


Exactly. And that’s all I am trying to say. They went 60 when they really shouldn’t be going 60. Neither guy is wired for that kind of match, so it becomes a bit of a letdown when they’re purposely dragging a 25-30 minute bout that the two can do into a 60 minute bout they can’t do.


----------



## 3venflow (Feb 3, 2019)

bdon said:


> Name the amount of times a 60-minute match was done on free TV? If you’re going to do it, then you need to deliver in a massive way.


That makes no sense to me because people aren't paying for it. Therefore, there's surely greater expectation (ie. value for money) if you put a 60 minute draw on PPV. Free TV is where all kinds of stuff, good and bad happens, and where you can test things like the faux MMA match between Hager and Wardlow, because if it goes wrong, well there's next week and people soon forget certain things with episodic TV. Whereas on PPV things stay in the memory for longer, like the Hangman/Omega vs. Bucks tag match, the explosion dud, the Stadium Stampede and Cody vs. Dustin. Fewer people would talk about those matches had they happened on a weekly Dynamite (look at Hangman/Omega vs. Lucha Brothers which was RIDICULOUSLY good but doesn't get spoken of much).

Besides, your view that the match wasn't that good doesn't seem to match the widespread view online, so it's not this failure you're trying to paint it as.


----------



## Prosper (Mar 25, 2015)

validreasoning said:


> The number of 'comedy segments' is completely irrelevant. Using this logic the best pure pro wrestling on TV is 205 live and Mainevent as those shows are just a bunch of matches with no angles or skits every week or Raw and SD is more pro wrestling now than 20 years ago because there is more in-ring stuff today than back then...
> 
> AEW being 95% serious is laughable. Its a show that has NO RULES during its matches for one. Real combat sports have rules.
> 
> ...


1.) The number of comedy/sports entertainment segments is highly relevant when you say that "*AEW is as much sports entertainment as WWE*". Because you're making a side to side comparison. You're saying that both companies are on the same level in that department and that's completely inaccurate as you can clearly see. How can you possibly say that one company who focuses primarily on the in ring part of wrestling is on the same level as one company that doesn't? How much time does a women's match for example in WWE get in comparison to AEW? Zelina Vega vs Rhea Ripley for example was like 3 minutes long and the totality of time spent in ring during the QOTR tournament's was probably 10-15 minutes. It was ridiculous. And that's in a company that has 7 hours of TV time. Compare that to wrestling minutes in the Women's TBS Title tournament. No comparison. Almost every women's match that's not on PPV in WWE is 2-3 minutes long, on the opposite side of the spectrum you have Ruby Soho/Statlander and Deeb/Shida for example, both which got about 12-15 minutes on AEW TV. Get it now? Why have the pro wrestling minutes on an episode of Rampage in 1 hour surpassed the pro wrestling minutes on SD on 2 separate occasions? You're not making sense. 

2.) Wrestling is fake. It's not real combat sports for one, its kayfabe combat sports, but the comparison can be made to a degree if you add the elements that you would have in a wrestling show to what you see in ring on any given AEW weekly show. Flaming table spots can be a part of pro wrestling/sports entertainment and it would still be considered a variation of combat sports because its in kayfabe, which is what you conveniently left out of your rebuttal. Using that as an argument as to why AEW is not a combat sport goes against what wrestling has always been. Why are you bringing up the 1900's? Wrestling has evolved and pro wrestling in the modern era is defined differently than what it was defined as in 1920. And you're being very hyperbolic when you say "No Rules" because if you watch on a weekly basis you'd see that almost any match outside of a Young Bucks match generally follows the rules.

3.) Sure, AEW is an extension of the sports entertainment genre, but my argument is that the sports entertainment element that you find in AEW is not *AS PROMINENT* as what you would find in WWE. The argument you started with was a counterpoint to that. No one ever said that there was NO part of AEW that exhibited sports entertainment. Of course they have it because that's what makes wrestling fun for a lot of people who watch, especially casuals. You're changing your argument from "AEW has the same amount of sports entertainment as WWE" to now arguing a point that I never made of "AEW has no sports entertainment at all and haven't incorporated that into their shows". And again, you're cherry picking segments that happened 5-6 months apart. Most of what you see on a weekly basis in WWE stems in foolery, stale comedy promos, and fuck finishes. In AEW you get maybe 3-5 comedy based segments a month, in WWE its more like 25 - 30/month. In AEW you get maybe 1 fuck finish every 6 months, in WWE you get at least 4-8 every week across RAW/SD. 

3.) AEW is signing talent because in order to be the #2 promotion and have anyone take you seriously as a major promotion right off the bat, you need to sign talent that are known. I don't understand how that wouldn't be the logical move. They hire talent that are booked prominently as "sports entertainers" and bring them into AEW and book them primarily as "pro wrestlers". The bring them in for name recognition then allow them to express their art in a way they weren't allowed to before. That's the difference. The talent that have come into AEW from WWE are viewed differently now. You may not see it that way personally being a guy that posts in bad faith, but the fact is that's how it is. As you can see, when talent come into AEW from WWE, the pro wrestling influence that they have on display in an AEW ring or on an AEW mic falls in line with what pro wrestling should be according to what the hardcore fanbase wants in 2021, and is vastly different than WWE on a week to week basis. Miro for example, while he did have a rocky "sports entertainment" based start I will admit, is now having in my opinion the best character run of his career and is cutting promos that we didn't know he had the ability to cut. Bryan Danielson is wrestling matches to a degree now that you wouldn't get in WWE and is allowed to do what he wants in ring. Cody's in ring work is vastly different. Moxley is cutting the best promos of his career. Serena Deeb is regarded as one of the best female wrestlers now (for me she's top 5), whereas in WWE she was relegated to sports entertainment segments and had her hair shaved. In AEW, you get banger after banger almost every week, in WWE you only get bangers on every other PPV and even then its usually rematch #3 or #4. 



La Parka said:


> AEW fans really gotta let go of the “AEW is pro rasslin and WWE is sports entertainment” argument.
> 
> It was a moot point day one when they had that gimmick battle royal with glacier “freezing” people and a guy putting oil on himself.


The argument being made is that the frequency of sports entertainment segments are lower than AEW. No one ever said that AEW doesn't do sports entertainment from time to time and that's not a bad thing, but the primary focus of the company is in ring work and no one with a straight face can deny that.


----------



## RapShepard (Jun 20, 2014)

bdon said:


> Name the amount of times a 60-minute match was done on free TV? If you’re going to do it, then you need to deliver in a massive way. Failure to even outdo 2 similar matches less than 6 months ago that required less time reeks of trying to force something.
> 
> It’s akin to what the WWE were doing in trying to force fans to accept Roman as the next Cena/Rock-level babyface.


Not including gauntlets the only 3 I remember are

Brock vs Kurt Angle SmackDown Ironman

HHH vs Benoit Raw Ironman

Cena vs HBK post Mania 23 Raw


bdon said:


> Exactly. And that’s all I am trying to say. They went 60 when they really shouldn’t be going 60. Neither guy is wired for that kind of match, so it becomes a bit of a letdown when they’re purposely dragging a 25-30 minute bout that the two can do into a 60 minute bout they can’t do.


I feel like a lot of main events delve into that. Obviously to be a top guy you got to be a completive person, I feel like a lot of the stars today feel they got to show they can do these extended matches to show they can go and truly care about the art.


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

TL;DR


3venflow said:


> That makes no sense to me because people aren't paying for it. Therefore, there's surely greater expectation (ie. value for money) if you put a 60 minute draw on PPV. Free TV is where all kinds of stuff, good and bad happens, and where you can test things like the faux MMA match between Hager and Wardlow, because if it goes wrong, well there's next week and people soon forget certain things with episodic TV. Whereas on PPV things stay in the memory for longer, like the Hangman/Omega vs. Bucks tag match, the explosion dud, the Stadium Stampede and Cody vs. Dustin. Fewer people would talk about those matches had they happened on a weekly Dynamite (look at Hangman/Omega vs. Lucha Brothers which was RIDICULOUSLY good but doesn't get spoken of much).
> 
> Besides, your view that the match wasn't that good doesn't seem to match the widespread view online, so it's not this failure you're trying to paint it as.


Ask anyone of these faceless people online if it was better than Kenny/Bryan on free TV in 30 minutes or Kenny/Page paid tv in 26 minutes.

If you’re going to test the waters with those two, maybe you should let them go 30 minutes and see if they could have went further? Nah. Fuck that. Let’s just throw them straight to 60 minutes and remind the world that neither guy can do 60 minute matches like others can and have. Oh! And while we’re at it, we want you to know that our current and former AEW champs can’t beat the big bad WWE powerhouse.


----------



## 3venflow (Feb 3, 2019)

bdon said:


> Ask anyone of these faceless people online if it was better than Kenny/Bryan on free TV in 30 minutes or Kenny/Page paid tv in 26 minutes.


Again, WHY is that important? Are three great matches, one greater than the others, not allowed to happen in the same year? Hangman vs. Danielson will stick in the memory more than most of Mox's defenses which were usually under 20 minutes and worked to a formula.

Bucks vs. PAC/Fenix wasn't as good as Bucks vs. Lucha Brothers but was still great.

Omega vs. Jungle Boy wasn't as good as Omega vs. Fenix but was still great.



> Let’s just throw them straight to 60 minutes and remind the world that neither guy can do 60 minute matches like others can and have.


In your previous post you said 'Name the amount of times a 60-minute match was done on free TV?', making the point that it's a rarity. Now you're saying they showed that neither guy can do a 60 minute like others can. So who are we comparing them to?

You know, HBK vs. Bret Iron Man Match from 96 is often called a 'classic' but wasn't nearly as good as this. It had less heat, less drama, less action and was extremely slow paced.

On that topic, how many 60 minute matches have there been in recent memory and how many were better than this match? Omega vs. Okada is the only one that springs to mind and that took place in Japan.



> And while we’re at it, we want you to know that our current and former AEW champs can’t beat the big bad WWE powerhouse.


How many people do you really think care about that? Not only is kayfabe dead, but you can make X > Y arguments out of anything in wrestling.

"Oh, Moxley won the Shield three-way match over Reigns and Rollins. Archer beat Moxley. So Archer > Reigns."


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

3venflow said:


> Again, WHY is that important? Are three great matches, one greater than the others, not allowed to happen in the same year? Hangman vs. Danielson will stick in the memory more than most of Mox's defenses which were usually under 20 minutes and worked to a formula.
> 
> Bucks vs. PAC/Fenix wasn't as good as Bucks vs. Lucha Brothers but was still great.
> 
> ...


It matters, because THE ENTIRE PURPOSE OF THEM GOING 60 WAS TO TRY AND MAKE PAGE OMEGA’S EQUAL.

It wasn’t as fucking good, so it was purposely long and didn’t deliver on the hat it was striving to be. So to Rap’s point and mine, it is a bit “meh”, because it didn’t need to be that fucking long to achieve what it set out to do.

Unless you like waiting weeks in advance for your reserved steak to come out tasting worse than the goddamn chain restaurant at your local plaza.


----------



## 3venflow (Feb 3, 2019)

bdon said:


> It matters, because THE ENTIRE PURPOSE OF THEM GOING 60 WAS TO TRY AND MAKE PAGE OMEGA’S EQUAL.


That is literally the first take I've heard that claims this. That's what you took from it? Are you forgetting that Hangman beating Omega made Page his equal in kayfabe?

You're imagining a hidden purpose to Danielson vs. Hangman that there's no evidence of.

The real explanation is probably more simple: Hangman vs. Mox is planned, Mox goes to rehab, AEW subs in Danielson but wants to protect him for a raft of 2022 big matches, so does the draw.


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

3venflow said:


> That is literally the first take I've heard that claims this. That's what you took from it? Are you forgetting that Hangman beating Omega made Page his equal in kayfabe?
> 
> You're imagining a hidden purpose to Danielson vs. Hangman that there's no evidence of.
> 
> The real explanation is probably more simple: Hangman vs. Mox is planned, Mox goes to rehab, AEW subs in Danielson but wants to protect him for a raft of 2022 big matches, so does the draw.


Nope.

The entire purpose was to lift Page into that echelon of in-ring talent that can “go”. It is ALL about keeping Page attached to Kenny, because their story didn’t end at Full Gear.


----------



## 3venflow (Feb 3, 2019)

bdon said:


> Nope.
> 
> The entire purpose was to lift Page into that echelon of in-ring talent that can “go”. It is ALL about keeping Page attached to Kenny, because their story didn’t end at Full Gear.


Page has proven he can go many times, hell he got near enough a career best match out of Brian Cage. He also doesn't have to be on Omega's level for that, just like Moxley wasn't. Hangman is actually better than Moxley at the 'long epic' so he has nothing to prove in that sense.

If anything, it's the character work that is a question mark over Hangman. He is following up on champions who had more defined characters/personas than his.


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

3venflow said:


> Page has proven he can go many times, hell he got near enough a career best match out of Brian Cage. He also doesn't have to be on Omega's level for that, just like Moxley wasn't. Hangman is actually better than Moxley at the 'long epic' so he has nothing to prove in that sense.
> 
> If anything, it's the character work that is a question mark over Hangman. He is following up on champions who had more defined characters/personas than his.


He DOESN’T have to be Omega’s equal, yet they just fucking forced a 60-minute match down our goddamn throats that wasn’t as good as a very recent 30-min bout or a very, very recent 26-min bout.

They are keeping the Page/Kenny dynamic alive, and they absolutely fucking repeated the Kenny/Bryan match (to much less success) but in DOUBLE the time. If you think they went to a time-limit draw by coincidence and didn’t use that as a way of harkening comparisons to Kenny and a future angle involving KENNY, then you don’t know your AEW as well as you think you do.


----------



## La Parka (Oct 28, 2008)

Prosper said:


> 1.) The number of comedy/sports entertainment segments is highly relevant when you say that "*AEW is as much sports entertainment as WWE*". Because you're making a side to side comparison. You're saying that both companies are on the same level in that department and that's completely inaccurate as you can clearly see. How can you possibly say that one company who focuses primarily on the in ring part of wrestling is on the same level as one company that doesn't? How much time does a women's match for example in WWE get in comparison to AEW? Zelina Vega vs Rhea Ripley for example was like 3 minutes long and the totality of time spent in ring during the QOTR tournament's was probably 10-15 minutes. It was ridiculous. And that's in a company that has 7 hours of TV time. Compare that to wrestling minutes in the Women's TBS Title tournament. No comparison. Almost every women's match that's not on PPV in WWE is 2-3 minutes long, on the opposite side of the spectrum you have Ruby Soho/Statlander and Deeb/Shida for example, both which got about 12-15 minutes on AEW TV. Get it now? Why have the pro wrestling minutes on an episode of Rampage in 1 hour surpassed the pro wrestling minutes on SD on 2 separate occasions? You're not making sense.
> 
> 2.) Wrestling is fake. It's not real combat sports for one, its kayfabe combat sports, but the comparison can be made to a degree if you add the elements that you would have in a wrestling show to what you see in ring on any given AEW weekly show. Flaming table spots can be a part of pro wrestling/sports entertainment and it would still be considered a variation of combat sports because its in kayfabe, which is what you conveniently left out of your rebuttal. Using that as an argument as to why AEW is not a combat sport goes against what wrestling has always been. Why are you bringing up the 1900's? Wrestling has evolved and pro wrestling in the modern era is defined differently than what it was defined as in 1920. And you're being very hyperbolic when you say "No Rules" because if you watch on a weekly basis you'd see that almost any match outside of a Young Bucks match generally follows the rules.
> 
> ...


You can focus on in ring work and still be sports entertainment

flaming tables = sports entertainment

death matches with obvious fake props = sports entertainment

matches with non stop flips and non selling = sports entertainment 

mix that in with teleportation, dudes doing silly comedy, backstage beat downs and kidnappings and you have a non pg version of WWE.

WWE has had lengthy matches too (look at 205 live or NXT UK) they don’t suddenly become a pro wrestling focused company


----------



## #BadNewsSanta (Sep 26, 2004)

To chime in, if the goal was to make Page look like a top tier worker in the realm of guys like Bryan (and Omega for those that consider him on that level), then I think it worked (to a degree). I certainly look higher on Page after the match as an in ring worker than I did before (and I already thought Page was great).

Now I don’t actually think Page is this incredible worker just based off one match. He’d need to have more like this one to make me say that (not as long though most times hopefully). But a match like this showed me Page can go the distance and still produce a classic. That could be mostly down to Danielson though, but I guess we’ll see as the years go on.


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

#BadNewsSanta said:


> To chime in, if the goal was to make Page look like a top tier worker in the realm of guys like Bryan (and Omega for those that consider him on that level), then I think it worked (to a degree). I certainly look higher on Page after the match as an in ring worker than I did before (and I already thought Page was great).
> 
> Now I don’t actually think Page is this incredible worker just based off one match. He’d need to have more like this one to make me say that (not as long though most times hopefully). But a match like this showed me Page can go the distance and still produce a classic. That could be mostly down to Danielson though, but I guess we’ll see as the years go on.


Could the match have not been just as good in 30 minutes? That’s the point @RapShepard and I are making. Kenny and Okada needed every minute they used. Kenny and Bryan deserved more. 

Page and Bryan, while a great match, felt lengthy for lengthy’s sake, which devalues what they done - had a great 25-30 minute match that went too long.


----------



## #BadNewsSanta (Sep 26, 2004)

bdon said:


> Could the match have not been just as good in 30 minutes? That’s the point @RapShepard and I are making. Kenny and Okada needed every minute they used. Kenny and Bryan deserved more.
> 
> Page and Bryan, while a great match, felt lengthy for lengthy’s sake, which devalues what they done - had a great 25-30 minute match that went too long.


I think the match would’ve been better if crunched into 30 minutes, and would’ve definitely surpassed Bryan/Omega. On the flip side, I don’t know that giving Bryan/Omega would be at the level of what we got with Bryan/Hangman. It’s tough to say though.

But it’s all just speculation anyway. We can only go with what we got, and my main point is that IF TK was trying to make Page look like a top tier working, one of the best in the world right now, then he succeeded. I wouldn’t agree it felt “lengthy for lengthy’s sake” but I would agree the finish they went for didn’t work with how long they went and the overall story of the match. The match itself flew by and was one of the fastest hours of Dynamite I can recall.


----------



## DammitChrist (Apr 3, 2016)

bdon said:


> It matters, because THE ENTIRE PURPOSE OF THEM GOING 60 WAS TO TRY AND MAKE PAGE OMEGA’S EQUAL.
> 
> It wasn’t as fucking good, so it was purposely long and didn’t deliver on the hat it was striving to be. So to Rap’s point and mine, it is a bit “meh”, because it didn’t need to be that fucking long to achieve what it set out to do.
> 
> Unless you like waiting weeks in advance for your reserved steak to come out tasting worse than the goddamn chain restaurant at your local plaza.


God, these annoying restaurant analogies are beyond ‘cringeworthy,’ and I NEVER say that too.

Dude, you’re the only one who thinks that way about EQUALITY, and this 60-minute match “not being as GOOD” as other great matches.


----------



## Prosper (Mar 25, 2015)

La Parka said:


> You can focus on in ring work and still be sports entertainment
> 
> flaming tables = sports entertainment
> 
> ...


I mean this just goes back to the whole point I was making to validreasoning. There are elements of pro wrestling and sports entertainment in AEW, but the degree of what you see on the WWE product is tremendously higher. That's all I'm saying.


----------



## MC (May 30, 2017)

bdon said:


> It matters, because THE ENTIRE PURPOSE OF THEM GOING 60 WAS TO TRY AND MAKE PAGE OMEGA’S EQUAL.
> 
> It wasn’t as fucking good, so it was purposely long and didn’t deliver on the hat it was striving to be. So to Rap’s point and mine, it is a bit “meh”, because it didn’t need to be that fucking long to achieve what it set out to do.
> 
> Unless you like waiting weeks in advance for your reserved steak to come out tasting worse than the goddamn chain restaurant at your local plaza.


So your complaint is that it wasn't better than a similar match despite being longer? Isn't that a rather small, insubstantial criticism. There have been far, far, far better examples of every story being done in wrestling, so why is it the main complaint for this match only? If you didn't like it, it'll be one thing but "this match was better" doesn't hold up much weight. Guess what? Bryan vs Omega wasn't better than most 30+ matches in the past decade. It's hardly a cause to die over.


----------



## 3venflow (Feb 3, 2019)

"I'll be honest: I'm excited for what's coming next between Hangman Page and Bryan Danielson. It's far from over. And I'll tell you this: Bryan Danielson is still the no. 1 contender," he said, "It's a rematch I'm very much excited to see."


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1471937131215945730


----------



## percy pringle (Sep 29, 2017)

Yeah screw AEW for giving that PPV quality match for free on tv!!!! Amazing how fickle folks are...


----------



## Wolf Mark (Jun 5, 2020)

*This match legitimized Hangman as a true main eventer*


----------



## Scuba Steve (Sep 29, 2021)

Arn Anderson has thoughts on the match as well :


_I told those two guys point blank, ‘It’s the best match I’ve seen in at least 25 years.’ If anybody wants to combat me on that, I would love to hear their thoughts, but it had everything. Let me tell you something. Hangman held his end up.”

He continued, “I told them both they made me proud to be in the wrestling business. It was just as if one of my kids was out there. I don’t know Hangman very well because we just haven’t spent a lot of time together. Much respect for his work ethic. I do know Daniel Bryan. I was with him quite a lot at my previous employment. Even knowing kind of what I could expect, I had no idea they would shine like that. Guess what? Nobody lost in that match.”_


----------



## Scuba Steve (Sep 29, 2021)

More from Arn :

_there was no way I was going to miss this one. Bryan Danielson may be the best in the world because I looked at his cardio, I watched his pacing, I watched his thought process, the story he was telling, the physicality, giving and receiving. Everything you would want to see in a title match for an hour was there._


----------



## 3venflow (Feb 3, 2019)

Yeah, guys in the business for a long time will appreciate the quality of it.

I wonder if, assuming there is a rematch, they'll hit tease the draw again and end it between 50-59 minutes.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1471298733572702210


----------



## Prosper (Mar 25, 2015)

3venflow said:


> "I'll be honest: I'm excited for what's coming next between Hangman Page and Bryan Danielson. It's far from over. And I'll tell you this: Bryan Danielson is still the no. 1 contender," he said, "It's a rematch I'm very much excited to see."
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1471937131215945730


New Years Smash seems about the right time for the rematch you would think. If they did it at Battle of the Belts, the match would take up most of the hour.


----------



## Randy Lahey (Apr 14, 2014)

WWE is produced like a soap opera. It always has been. AEW is produced like a sporting event.

The two couldn’t possibly get any different.

Hence AEW’s emphasis on W/L record to create the illusion of a real sport. Their emphasis on work rate, longer matches, actual action


----------



## BrrrGoesWooo! (Mar 29, 2021)

Soul Rex said:


> How can it be superior if it's the same thing? It's the same thing.
> 
> Call it pro wrestling, sports entertainment, pressing catch, fake fighting...Whatever the fuck you want, ít's the same shit..IT'S THE SAME SHIT.


Well I mean meatloaf is still beef, that doesn't mean it's the same thing as a steak.

It's like music or movies, there are genres. Texas Chainsaw Massacre isn't Citizen Kane. Slayer isn't Mozart. 

Sports entertainment is what WWE has decided to brand their version of fake fighting, which is different than Lucha, or Puro, or Hardcore or Comedy etc. 

Doesn't mean one is superior, but there are differences. I love a good meatloaf, I love a good steak, but If I ordered a ribeye and someone brought me meatloaf, I'd certainly be able to tell the difference and would be annoyed at the waiter trying to insist it was steak. 

Don't get what's so hard to understand about this, honestly.


----------



## Klitschko (May 24, 2020)

DammitChrist said:


> Nah, professional wrestling is FAR superior to ‘sports entertainment.’
> 
> They are not the same at all.


Lol what the fuck are talking about here hahaha?


----------



## Jbardo37 (Aug 20, 2021)

I don’t understand so called wrestling fans sometimes, the match had me fully focused for the full hour.


----------



## BrrrGoesWooo! (Mar 29, 2021)

Prosper said:


> New Years Smash seems about the right time for the rematch you would think. If they did it at Battle of the Belts, the match would take up most of the hour.


Was listening to a podcast earlier that suggested maybe they do run this back at Battle of the Belts with a Page victory and a post show on youtube that allows them to go maybe 40ish minutes with a more confident Page getting a surprising win ahead of the time limit and the respect from Bryan, then slip a match in afterwards that would have been on the post-show.

Build it up with promos coming off of this show, and build to a big special with this rematch as the focus. 

Revolution seems too far away being in March to maintain the heat, and personally I think Page needs to retain at the very least until DoN. 

-----

I dunno this is kind of half the fun is wondering and trying to figure out what they're going to do. 

People do this shit all the time with tv shows like Game of Thrones or w.e.

The episode ends on a cliffhanger.. well what's gonna happen!? -- It gets people talking and interested in the story and the finish of this chapter. Instead of. Oh well Hangman won, cool, well I guess that's that storyline finished. 

Really can't understand how people are this miffed about a time limit draw after an incredible match like that. Let it play out folks!


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

3venflow said:


> "I'll be honest: I'm excited for what's coming next between Hangman Page and Bryan Danielson. It's far from over. And I'll tell you this: Bryan Danielson is still the no. 1 contender," he said, "It's a rematch I'm very much excited to see."
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1471937131215945730


Of course the big, bad WWE guy doesn’t lose his #1 ranking despite clearly failing to win the championship. Gotta bend over backwards for the E guys.


----------



## .christopher. (Jan 14, 2014)

Randy Lahey said:


> WWE is produced like a soap opera. It always has been. AEW is produced like a sporting event.
> 
> The two couldn’t possibly get any different.
> 
> Hence AEW’s emphasis on W/L record to create the illusion of a real sport. Their emphasis on work rate, longer matches, actual action


Please don't tell me you or anyone else believes this. There's as much soap opera in AEW than there is in the WWE. Your world champion spent the past year drunk because he wasn't allowed in his friends tree house anymore.

I'd love to know what sporting event would have someone not even take the biggest match on the card seriously like when Orange Cassidy was in a world title match? I don't remember Ken Shamrock fighting Royce Gracie with his hands up his arse.


----------



## RiverFenix (Dec 10, 2011)

Next match should end really quickly with the loser simply getting caught on the button or trapped in an inescapable sub. 

Not under 2 minutes or anything gimmicky, but it definitely should be under 30 minutes.


----------



## Prosper (Mar 25, 2015)

bdon said:


> Of course the big, bad WWE guy doesn’t lose his #1 ranking despite clearly failing to win the championship. Gotta bend over backwards for the E guys.


Lol he didn't lose


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

.christopher. said:


> Please don't tell me you or anyone else believes this. There's as much soap opera in AEW than there is in the WWE. Your world champion spent the past year drunk because he wasn't allowed in his friends tree house anymore.
> 
> I'd love to know what sporting event would have someone not even take the biggest match on the card seriously like when Orange Cassidy was in a world title match? I don't remember Ken Shamrock fighting Royce Gracie with his hands up his arse.


Sorry, but for ME, the styles are completely different, even if the genres are the same. Halloween, A Nightmare on Elm Street, and Friday the 13th are all horror films, but I wouldn’t exactly compare them to The Blair Witch, ya know?

WWE’s insistence on using the invisible cameraman to show guys in the back talking, devising their plans, and pretending no one knows what they’re up to is the dumbest shit I have ever seen. I haven’t been able to stomach it for 20+ years, and I still can’t stomach it. It takes me out of the ability to suspend disbelief that I’m watching a world of these larger than life PEOPLE who can do extraordinary things, ie Hogan has so perfectly practiced the leg drop that only HIS leg drop should end a match. That sort of thing.

For ME, I can overlook the action as part of the larger than life people. Even when it is sometimes dumb (I didn’t watch AEW when Glacier tried to freeze someone but did lose my cool over Matt Hardy’s teleportation BS), but I can’t in good conscience pretend the cameraman isn’t right there filming the entire plan to screw a guy over.

It’d be akin to the bad guy in a Bond movie discussing his plans to take over the world on live television with Bond and the powers that be watching the news at that very moment, yet they are forced to act like they didn’t see the same goddamn thing we just saw.

That, more than anything, is why I have always said WWE had a monopoly on “Sports Entertainment”. Maybe TNA used it, but I wouldn’t know due to not watching that shitty show other than YouTube clips when Sting became the Joker.

Invisible cameras backstage = a movie.


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

Prosper said:


> Lol he didn't lose


We know if anyone else went time limit draw, they would have went down the card and lost their #1ranking. Just comical how the first title rematch is going to go to a WWE guy.

This fucking show has been very fucking WWE-lite from the moment Bryan entered the picture, and Omega losing the title has only furthered that feeling. Feels like a BD and Cody collaboration, which is probably why I haven’t watched a full episode in over a month.

It’s cool. I went away for 20 years. I can slowly not care about wrestling again.


----------



## Prosper (Mar 25, 2015)

bdon said:


> We know if anyone else went time limit draw, they would have went down the card and lost their #1ranking. Just comical how the first title rematch is going to go to a WWE guy.
> 
> This fucking show has been very fucking WWE-lite from the moment Bryan entered the picture, and Omega losing the title has only furthered that feeling. Feels like a BD and Cody collaboration, which is probably why I haven’t watched a full episode in over a month.
> 
> It’s cool. I went away for 20 years. I can slowly not care about wrestling again.


Lol you’re being a little dramatic, you’re just a big time Omega mark (so am I as you know) and you can’t enjoy the show like you did before if he’s not on it. You had no problem with Bryan when he was feuding with Omega lol now all of a sudden you can’t stand him because he dared to wrestle Page longer than he did Kenny. Bryan’s presence has been pretty prominent but it’s the right move right now given his name value and wrestling ability. He and Punk need to be on every show for a while.


----------



## Soul Rex (Nov 26, 2017)

BrrrGoesWooo! said:


> Well I mean meatloaf is still beef, that doesn't mean it's the same thing as a steak.
> 
> It's like music or movies, there are genres. Texas Chainsaw Massacre isn't Citizen Kane. Slayer isn't Mozart.
> 
> ...


This is literally retarded because you are stil ACTING as if sports entertainment wasn't literally JUST A TAG, its not a fucking wrestling genre, is not a wrestling style invented by Vince Mcmahon, its just a stupid nickname that he created and attached to the bussines, pro wrestling is sports entertainment because sports entertainment is just another way to call pro wrestling.

You now what else falls into the category of sports entertainment? Shit shows and exhibition sports, see what they all have in common? They are fake sports, made to entertain, JUST LIKE WRESTLING.

YOU CAN NOT separate puroresu and lucha libre out of the category of sports entertainment! Because all forms of pro wrestling are in fact, forms of sports entertaiment. This is only hard for you to understand because you are wrong, you are mistaken and we are teaching you, but you don't want to learn.

You are pretending sports entertainment is another kind of fake sport Vince created, this is historically wrong and makes no sense, ignorant to say at least.


----------



## Wolf Mark (Jun 5, 2020)

bdon said:


> We know if anyone else went time limit draw, they would have went down the card and lost their #1ranking. Just comical how the first title rematch is going to go to a WWE guy.
> 
> This fucking show has been very fucking WWE-lite from the moment Bryan entered the picture, and Omega losing the title has only furthered that feeling. Feels like a BD and Cody collaboration, which is probably why I haven’t watched a full episode in over a month.
> 
> It’s cool. I went away for 20 years. I can slowly not care about wrestling again.


Kenny is much more "WWE" than Bryan who is more a grounded wrestler.


----------



## Soul Rex (Nov 26, 2017)

__





Sports entertainment - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org


----------



## Randy Lahey (Apr 14, 2014)

bdon said:


> We know if anyone else went time limit draw, they would have went down the card and lost their #1ranking. Just comical how the first title rematch is going to go to a WWE guy.
> 
> This fucking show has been very fucking WWE-lite from the moment Bryan entered the picture, and Omega losing the title has only furthered that feeling. Feels like a BD and Cody collaboration, which is probably why I haven’t watched a full episode in over a month.
> 
> It’s cool. I went away for 20 years. I can slowly not care about wrestling again.


I dont think you are watching the same show as the rest of us.

The Bryan Danielson wrestling for AEW is nothing like his WWE version. His matches are far more stiffer, his promos more authentic, he’s just a different guy.


----------



## THANOS (Jun 20, 2006)

Further proof that viewers loved this match.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1471910442201059329


----------



## THANOS (Jun 20, 2006)

Arn Anderson's opinion on the match. I would say he has an opinion worth placing weight in.


__
https://www.reddit.com/r/SquaredCircle/comments/riptjb


----------



## Erik. (Mar 17, 2014)

bdon said:


> We know if anyone else went time limit draw, they would have went down the card and lost their #1ranking. Just comical how the first title rematch is going to go to a WWE guy.
> 
> This fucking show has been very fucking WWE-lite from the moment Bryan entered the picture, and Omega losing the title has only furthered that feeling. Feels like a BD and Cody collaboration, which is probably why I haven’t watched a full episode in over a month.
> 
> It’s cool. I went away for 20 years. I can slowly not care about wrestling again.


How do we know that? 

It's never happened in a title match before in AEW.

Bryan didn't lose. Gets rematch. 

That happens in MMA, it happens in Boxing. I dont see why this would be different.


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

Wolf Mark said:


> Kenny is much more "WWE" than Bryan who is more a grounded wrestler.


I am not talking about Bryan’s matches per se, but the entire show has taken a creative shift towards a more WWE feel vs when Kenny and the Bucks were running things.

Cody and Bryan’s hands are all over the booking and production.


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

Prosper said:


> Lol you’re being a little dramatic, you’re just a big time Omega mark (so am I as you know) and you can’t enjoy the show like you did before if he’s not on it. You had no problem with Bryan when he was feuding with Omega lol now all of a sudden you can’t stand him because he dared to wrestle Page longer than he did Kenny. Bryan’s presence has been pretty prominent but it’s the right move right now given his name value and wrestling ability. He and Punk need to be on every show for a while.


It has nothing to do with that. The entire show, even beginning when Bryan and Kenny started their feud with more promos, has felt like a shift in character from the show’s premise. The show has been different since Punk and Bryan entered. More segments, more predictability, more…boring.

And now we have to watch Bryan, the WWE guy, be the first to get a rematch when he couldn’t win the title. Way to remind your audience that the WWE is more important than YOUR guys.

Worse yet is knowing that they are absolutely going to force Omega, Bryan, and Page into a triple threat, which inevitably protects Bryan even more and hammers home the point that “even though Bryan lost, it took two former champs and friends to do so”.

If the draw merely leads to Page defeating Bryan in less than 30 minutes, then I’m perfectly fine with that. I just know AEW, and them going with the narrative of Page “doing a Kenny” and going 60 minutes was not something that won’t be part of an overarching story.


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

Prosper said:


> Lol you’re being a little dramatic, you’re just a big time Omega mark (so am I as you know) and you can’t enjoy the show like you did before if he’s not on it. You had no problem with Bryan when he was feuding with Omega lol now all of a sudden you can’t stand him because he dared to wrestle Page longer than he did Kenny. Bryan’s presence has been pretty prominent but it’s the right move right now given his name value and wrestling ability. He and Punk need to be on every show for a while.


And you also claimed I was being dramatic about Cody vs Malaki, yet here we are with you still pretending that Cody didn’t kill a lot of Black’s momentum like he has done numerous others in his time in AEW. Might want to start listening to me more often. 

I read the tea leaves. I mentioned the show feeling a little “too WWE” when Scorpio Sky and Ethan Page were cutting a promo with the ATT and getting “WHAT!?” chants. This was at the same time Bryan/Kenny were telling their story. I mentioned it again at the Virginia Dynamite following Full Gear when they started the show with a promo.

More and more each week, the show takes on the feel of a show that I don’t know or like. @LifeInCattleClass even commented on it, but he chalked it up to Kenny and the Bucks not being backstage. The Bucks are most assuredly backstage now, and I’m sure Kenny is recovering backstage, yet the show still feels a little too WWE. And I say that knowing we just watched a good 60 minute match that would never air on WWE for free, but the overall feel of the show has taken a cultural change and character shift since Full Gear.


----------



## DUSTY 74 (Aug 11, 2021)

AEW Trademark of All Elite Wrestling, LLC - Registration Number 6170081 - Serial Number 88182060 :: Justia Trademarks


Video and computer game tapes, video and computer game discs, video and computer game cartridges; downloadable video and computer game software; cinematographic and television films featuring sports, entertainment and subjects of general human interest; pre-recorded dvds, all featuring sports...




trademarks.justia.com






for the record the term “ Sports Entertainment “ can be found endlessly through the trademark registration of AEW


----------



## 3venflow (Feb 3, 2019)

bdon said:


> The Bucks are most assuredly backstage now, and I’m sure Kenny is recovering backstage, yet the show still feels a little too WWE.


Feels less WWE than ever to me.

Nothing straying to the 'absurd' level of the Mimosa Mayhem angle, Kip and Penelope's wedding, the Exalted One skits (including light shots at Vince), Broken Matt and his teleportation, and Jericho + MJF breaking out into song and dance (although I have a soft spot for that because it was inventive, even if absurd). Even the cinematic matches have disappeared in the second half of this year.

Possibly more in-ring focus than ever except on certain Dynamites where they up the mic stuff (usually to build a big show). Rampage is one hour of straight up wrestling with a few promo/interviews thrown in. If anything, it's gone closer to NJPW than WWE lately. Even the recruitment policy has been more focused on technical and hard-hitting workers.


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

DUSTY 74 said:


> AEW Trademark of All Elite Wrestling, LLC - Registration Number 6170081 - Serial Number 88182060 :: Justia Trademarks
> 
> 
> Video and computer game tapes, video and computer game discs, video and computer game cartridges; downloadable video and computer game software; cinematographic and television films featuring sports, entertainment and subjects of general human interest; pre-recorded dvds, all featuring sports...
> ...


So does UFC. Doesn’t make it “like” the WWE.


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

3venflow said:


> Feels less WWE than ever to me.
> 
> Nothing straying to the 'absurd' level of the Mimosa Mayhem angle, Kip and Penelope's wedding, the Exalted One skits (including light shots at Vince), Broken Matt and his teleportation, and Jericho + MJF breaking out into song and dance (although I have a soft spot for that because it was inventive, even if absurd). Even the cinematic matches have disappeared in the second half of this year.
> 
> Possibly more in-ring focus than ever except on certain Dynamites where they up the mic stuff (usually to build a big show). Rampage is one hour of straight up wrestling with a few promo/interviews thrown in. If anything, it's gone closer to NJPW than WWE lately. Even the recruitment policy has been more focused on technical and hard-hitting workers.


You also argued against Cody being a problem and argued that they didn’t focus solely on the WWE guys for 2 fucking years.

Sorry if I take your opinion with a grain of salt.


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

AEW: The place where WWE guys go to receive the Superman Booking they wished for in WWE, and their Indie counterparts who simply enjoy putting on a show.


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

Makes me almost regret bitching about The Cody and Jericho Show that occurred for the first year and a half.

Almost.

The first year and a half the show focused entirely on Cody and Jericho. During Omega’s reign, the show began to involve and focus on more characters and stories. Now it’s the Bryan and Punk show. Hangman Adam Page wins the fucking belt, yet Bryan is the story of the feud - maybe, just maybe you could have made the story about Page since everyone was going to tune into Bryan segments anyways and already fucking knows who he is!?

That goddamn story felt as compelling as the Matt Hardy and Sammy story that everyone swore wasn’t burying a homegrown AEW guy in favor of the E drone.


----------



## 3venflow (Feb 3, 2019)

bdon said:


> You also argued against Cody being a problem


Cody wasn't a big problem until around the Ogogo feud. Fans were still behind him (he was the most popular babyface in year one), he was a white meat babyface who the target audience enjoyed. Before Ogogo and 'muh racism' everything was fine to me. It was at that stage that he became way too self-indulgent and I acknowledged that. Some of us have fluid opinions that can shift.



> and argued that they didn’t focus solely on the WWE guys for 2 fucking years.


No idea what you mean here. They've never focused solely on WWE guys, hence things like the Kenny/Hangman tag title reign, the emergence of Darby, MJF, OC, Sammy, Britt, Shida and Jungle Boy, Best Friends vs. PnP main eventing Dynamite in the parking lot, and the Bucks vs. Lucha Brothers being AEW's first big tag program. Obviously, while they established new names, they did focus the world title on the known entities instead of making the big mistake of throwing the belt on Hangman instead of Jericho. Two years later, look at the current champions: Hangman, Guevara, Lucha Brothers, Britt and Starks.

Also, if your description of a 'WWE guy' is like Chip's of anyone who has been there for a cup of coffee, then much of AEW's early talent qualifies. But in reality, guys like Cody, Archer and Trent reinvented themselves completely after their WWE stints.


----------



## DUSTY 74 (Aug 11, 2021)

bdon said:


> So does UFC. Doesn’t make it “like” the WWE.


actually it doesn’t within its actual trademarks that I’ve seen but feel free to post anything you find always enjoy some good info ….. i think more than the constant mentions of the phrase sports entertainment being applied to allot of these debates by both sides of the fence in order to somehow belittle the opposition which was originally intended as simply a way to get around state regulations & sports commissioners during the Golden Age Expansion
would be the “Influence of Vince Russo“ on the product both for the inspiration of the attitude era as well as what he brought to WCW and so forth which might better pinpoint what AEW is striving to have much less of / if not avoid all together


----------



## 3venflow (Feb 3, 2019)

Acknowledgement from one of the GOATs.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1471303959742758913


----------



## BrrrGoesWooo! (Mar 29, 2021)

Soul Rex said:


> This is literally retarded because you are stil ACTING as if sports entertainment wasn't literally JUST A TAG, its not a fucking wrestling genre, is not a wrestling style invented by Vince Mcmahon, its just a stupid nickname that he created and attached to the bussines, pro wrestling is sports entertainment because sports entertainment is just another way to call pro wrestling.
> 
> You now what else falls into the category of sports entertainment? Shit shows and exhibition sports, see what they all have in common? They are fake sports, made to entertain, JUST LIKE WRESTLING.
> 
> ...


Dude it might be a term Vince McMahon came up with.. but Vince McMahon has been the lead director of that version 
-- his version -- of fake fighting, for so long that he has practically created his own genre, and then dubbed it "sports entertainment" to differentiate his product from pro-wrestling for advertisers and TV execs as you've said yourself. 

Almost sounds like this guy has his own sound, flavour, or vision for his version of fake fighting called "sports entertainment" 

Don't tell me you can't tell the difference between a meatloaf and steak or a waffle and a pancake just because it's all food and kind of related. 🤦‍♂️


----------



## .christopher. (Jan 14, 2014)

bdon said:


> Sorry, but for ME, the styles are completely different, even if the genres are the same. Halloween, A Nightmare on Elm Street, and Friday the 13th are all horror films, but I wouldn’t exactly compare them to The Blair Witch, ya know?
> 
> WWE’s insistence on using the invisible cameraman to show guys in the back talking, devising their plans, and pretending no one knows what they’re up to is the dumbest shit I have ever seen. I haven’t been able to stomach it for 20+ years, and I still can’t stomach it. It takes me out of the ability to suspend disbelief that I’m watching a world of these larger than life PEOPLE who can do extraordinary things, ie Hogan has so perfectly practiced the leg drop that only HIS leg drop should end a match. That sort of thing.
> 
> ...


Yeah, you're right. It is bad, but, imo, it's no worse than other "sports entertainment" tropes that take you out of being able to lose yourself in the show. Honestly, that invisible cameraman trope has at least brought out entertaining segments. Shit like Orange Cassidy, Hardy teleporting, Best Friends mum, Miro's video games, etc, never brought entertainment value whatsoever. I could at least enjoy a Vince, Austin, Rock, etc backstage segment even if they were stretching realism.


----------



## .christopher. (Jan 14, 2014)

bdon said:


> I am not talking about Bryan’s matches per se, but the entire show has taken a creative shift towards a more WWE feel vs when Kenny and the Bucks were running things.
> 
> Cody and Bryan’s hands are all over the booking and production.


Had you ever seen Bryan before AEW? From your comments, I assume not. Bryan, and this is a detriment as he SHOULD use his position to protect himself, has never cared for creative control. He just wants to wrestle. Which is why he was fine losing to jobbers CLEAN as WWE champion.

100% he doesn't care to have any input on the direction of shows bar "I want to wrestle him".


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

.christopher. said:


> Had you ever seen Bryan before AEW? From your comments, I assume not. Bryan, and this is a detriment as he SHOULD use his position to protect himself, has never cared for creative control. He just wants to wrestle. Which is why he was fine losing to jobbers CLEAN as WWE champion.
> 
> 100% he doesn't care to have any input on the direction of shows bar "I want to wrestle him".


From what I gathered, he was helping with creative on SmackDown at the end of his run there.

But let’s say he ISN’T booking or helping with creative, there has been a massive cultural change since he came. That could be Kenny being gone, and Cody being backstage producing more segments (his bullshit getting far more play of late would suggest this to be an issue), or TK is booking/producing segments to try and match what he THINKS a show with Bryan should be doing, which is TK attempting to play to more casuals with more “entertainment” aspects.

I don’t know what it is, but the show’s direction has taken a massive change.


----------



## .christopher. (Jan 14, 2014)

bdon said:


> From what I gathered, he was helping with creative on SmackDown at the end of his run there.
> 
> But let’s say he ISN’T booking or helping with creative, there has been a massive cultural change since he came. That could be Kenny being gone, and Cody being backstage producing more segments (his bullshit getting far more play of late would suggest this to be an issue), or TK is booking/producing segments to try and match what he THINKS a show with Bryan should be doing, which is TK attempting to play to more casuals with more “entertainment” aspects.
> 
> I don’t know what it is, but the show’s direction has taken a massive change.


To me, it doesn't really feel all that different from usual, but you're very good at picking up the intricacies of booking in general, so I'm not saying you're wrong either. Let's say you're right - I personally don't think it has anything to do with Bryan having any input on the show. He is too passive for his own good. As long as he's in the ring, he doesn't care.


----------



## shandcraig (Mar 23, 2008)

bdon said:


> Makes me almost regret bitching about The Cody and Jericho Show that occurred for the first year and a half.
> 
> Almost.
> 
> ...


Lol spot on " thr Bryan and punk show"


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

.christopher. said:


> To me, it doesn't really feel all that different from usual, but you're very good at picking up the intricacies of booking in general, so I'm not saying you're wrong either. Let's say you're right - I personally don't think it has anything to do with Bryan having any input on the show. He is too passive for his own good. As long as he's in the ring, he doesn't care.


Well, I don’t believe it is Bryan trying to be selfish at all. That’s out of character. Just as it would be for Omega. I know enough about Bryan to know that, but when I suggest he has input on creative, I mean moreso in the production of the other segments of the show where this “different” feeling really is most noticeable, IMO.

But again, that could be due to (for better and for worse) less Jericho, less Moxley, and less Kenny, a growing influx of promo time for MJF and Punk which IS a natural booking decision even if I hate long-winded promos, and a lot more Cody BS which always feels like WWE midcard BS with the added pizzazz of having the book to add in too much pomp and circumstance.


----------



## DUSTY 74 (Aug 11, 2021)

bdon said:


> and a lot more Cody BS which always feels like WWE midcard BS with the added pizzazz of having the book to add in too much pomp and circumstance.



Aka


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

DUSTY 74 said:


> Aka
> 
> View attachment 113473


One man’s (Vince) chazzerai is another man’s (TK) chazzerai but with EVP pull. Haha


----------



## shandcraig (Mar 23, 2008)

60 minute match that will be forgotten in weeks to come, Says enough.


----------



## Soul Rex (Nov 26, 2017)

BrrrGoesWooo! said:


> Dude it might be a term Vince McMahon came up with.. but Vince McMahon has been the lead director of that version
> -- his version -- of fake fighting, for so long that he has practically created his own genre, and then dubbed it "sports entertainment" to differentiate his product from pro-wrestling for advertisers and TV execs as you've said yourself.
> 
> Almost sounds like this guy has his own sound, flavour, or vision for his version of fake fighting called "sports entertainment"
> ...


Dude whatever you think Vince Mcmahon version of "fake fighting" is, its as much as sports entertainment as any other version of wrestling. Its been explained too much honestly, you are just being ignorant on purpose.

The word wasn't created to discribe only his product, but all forms of sports entertainment, you trying to separate it from Puroresu or Lucha is bad use of the word.


----------



## DammitChrist (Apr 3, 2016)

shandcraig said:


> 60 minute match that will be forgotten in weeks to come, Says enough.


Nah, the 60-minute match between Adam Page vs Bryan Danielson will thankfully be remembered for years to come 



Soul Rex said:


> Dude whatever you think Vince Mcmahon version of "fake fighting" is, its as much as sports entertainment as any other version of wrestling. Its been explained too much honestly, you are just being ignorant on purpose.
> 
> The word wasn't created to discribe only his product, but all forms of sports entertainment, you trying to separate it from Puroresu or Lucha is bad use of the word.


Please stop pretending that professional wrestling and 'sports entertainment' are the same when it's really not.

By the way, the former is FAR superior to the latter.


----------



## Soul Rex (Nov 26, 2017)

DammitChrist said:


> Nah, the 60-minute match between Adam Page vs Bryan Danielson will thankfully be remembered for years to come
> 
> 
> 
> ...


*Sports entertainment* is a type of spectacle which presents an ostensibly competitive event using a high level of theatrical flourish and extravagant presentation, with the purpose of entertaining an audience. 





__





Sports entertainment - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org





That's fucking professional wrestling, now you can say all you want and repeat the same shit all you want, but being ignorant about something and refuse to acknowledge it will not get you too far in life, my lil buddy.


----------



## DammitChrist (Apr 3, 2016)

Soul Rex said:


> *Sports entertainment* is a type of spectacle which presents an ostensibly competitive event using a high level of theatrical flourish and extravagant presentation, with the purpose of entertaining an audience.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hey, if I was your little buddy, then you’d acknowledge that professional wrestling is just superior to that absurd nonsense that Vince calls ‘sports entertainment’


----------



## BrrrGoesWooo! (Mar 29, 2021)

Soul Rex said:


> Dude whatever you think Vince Mcmahon version of "fake fighting" is, its as much as sports entertainment as any other version of wrestling. Its been explained too much honestly, you are just being ignorant on purpose.
> 
> The word wasn't created to discribe only his product, but all forms of sports entertainment, you trying to separate it from Puroresu or Lucha is bad use of the word.


There was a term for this that everbody used generally for this form of fake fighting. It was called pro-wrestling.

Vince renamed his version of fake fighting "sports entertainment" and created his own genre of the format over the course of 20 years with practically no competition.

Dude it's the same shit as somebody performing music or performing in a movie or cooking or w.e. else, differentiating themselves by saying I'm punk rock, I direct horror movies, or I cook Italian food.

It's all still music, it's still film, it's still food but you can't sit here and tell me you can't see a difference between punk rock and Beethoven, or Casablanca and Taxi Driver, or Italian vs. Mexican.. You can't see the difference between the genre that Vince created and dubbed "sports entertainment" and something like NJPW, or GCW?

------

Just because this guy decided to come up with a new term for his vision of pro-wrestling, doesn't mean that it's pro-wrestling in full -- it's Vince McMahons genre of pro-wrestling he specifically dubbed as "sports entertainment."

PWG is nothing like old school AJPW. But that's why one is indie comedy and high flying flippy shit, and the other one is brutal af and big meaty men are are dropping each other on top of their head and coming back with huge clubbing strikes during 40+ grueling minutes.

------

They're different styles of the same idea of "fake fighting."

But don't sit here and try and tell me that meatloaf is a steak just because they come from the same animal.

I might like both but don't confuse the two.


----------



## Erik. (Mar 17, 2014)

I loved this bit. 

Bryan's an arsehole.


----------



## Soul Rex (Nov 26, 2017)

BrrrGoesWooo! said:


> Vince renamed his version of fake fighting "sports entertainment" and created his own genre of the format over the course of 20 years with practically no competition.
> 
> Just because this guy decided to come up with a new term for his vision of pro-wrestling, doesn't mean that it's pro-wrestling in full -- it's Vince McMahons genre of pro-wrestling he specifically dubbed as "sports entertainment."


This is where you are fucking wrong specifically, for 10th thousand, Vince didn't create the word as a "new form of wrestling", it was way to describe ALL OF PRO WRESTLING, in a much fancier way. All wrestling is sports entertainment, ITS NOT JUST WRESTLING, sports entertainment is category of things.

Dude fuck with that, I'm not arguing if Vince's product flavor is different than NJPW or whetever the fuck you say, you are coming here explaining shit that is unnecessary, yes movies genres are different, yes Vince's product is different to CMLL (duuh), you are wasting time saying all of this irrelevant nonsense because it's not what we are arguing.

By definition all wrestling is sports entertainment, if you want to use a word EXCLUSIVLY to describe Vince's product, then try finding another one.. Like "casual wrestling", american wrestling or some like that.. SPORTS ENTERTAINMENT is NOT the word you want to use for that, because it's used to describe ALL FORMS OF PRO WRESTLING... Lucha Libre and Puroresu are still sports entertainment, even if they are not exactly the same kind of SPORTS ENTERTAINMENT Vince's sell.


----------



## Leviticus (May 1, 2020)

He's not a true main eventer untils he tells the jobber brigade to fuck off and stop doing their stupid skit comedy.


----------



## Leviticus (May 1, 2020)

Soul Rex said:


> This is where you are fucking wrong specifically, for 10th thousand, Vince didn't create the word as a "new form of wrestling", it was way to describe ALL OF PRO WRESTLING, in a much fancier way. All wrestling is sports entertainment, ITS NOT JUST WRESTLING, sports entertainment is category of things.
> 
> Dude fuck with that, I'm not arguing if Vince's product flavor is different than NJPW or whetever the fuck you say, you are coming here explaining shit that is unnecessary, yes movies genres are different, yes Vince's product is different to CMLL (duuh), you are wasting time saying all of this irrelevant nonsense because it's not what we are arguing.
> 
> By definition all wrestling is sports entertainment, if you want to use a word EXCLUSIVLY to describe Vince's product, then try finding another one.. Like "casual wrestling", american wrestling or some like that.. SPORTS ENTERTAINMENT is NOT the word you want to use for that, because it's used to describe ALL FORMS OF PRO WRESTLING... Lucha Libre and Puroresu are still sports entertainment, even if they are not exactly the same kind of SPORTS ENTERTAINMENT Vince's sell.


Old school wrestlers view wrestling a sport more than entertainment. Just like the Globetrotters consider themselves to be legit basketball players even though their games are basically rigged and all for show.

As a term Sports Entertaiment was coined so that Vince could get out of regulations tha sports and athletics companies have to follow. He wants wrestlers viewed more as actors than pro athletes.


----------



## Soul Rex (Nov 26, 2017)

Leviticus said:


> Old school wrestlers view wrestling a sport more than entertainment. Just like the Globetrotters consider themselves to be legit basketball players even though their games are basically rigged and all for show.
> 
> As a term Sports Entertaiment was coined so that Vince could get out of regulations tha sports and athletics companies have to follow. He wants wrestlers viewed more as actors than pro athletes.


Well if you watch a 70's match, it was as much as ridiculous as any todays match, the coreography, the circus and the spot calling was evident, old wrestling still looked like fake shit.. In fact, some Lesnar's stiff matches today look way more real.

Same with the globetrotters, sports entertainment is the best to describe what they did, they were a fucking shit show.

With time passing, technology coming along, people getting smarter.. It was just due time that people will understand everything was just a show, Vince just went ahead of time and invented the word "sports entertainment" and accepted his faith.. Some people don't like it, but It was just a business move.


----------



## wrasslin_casual (May 28, 2020)

Peerless said:


> Even if it was a good match it was a waste of time. Going an hour just to give the fans a draw is awful booking and deserves to be shit on.


100% this!

But these kids don't have a clue.

First of, WF members, an iron man match is not necessarily a 60 minute match, it's a match with a time limit and the wrestlers are able to pin/submit opponents however many times as possible in that time limit. That is an ironman match.

Page v Brian was a good match, maybe even very good but it's not an ironman match. Plus, booking it so Page can't even beat a one legged brian who has wrested every week 9how the hell does a heel get booked like this?) is plain stupid. AEW needs bookers.


----------



## excalibur41389 (Feb 5, 2014)

While the match itself was good, the story behind it and moving out of it is terrible. As mentioned, Page couldn't even beat a weakened Bryan Danielson. But more than that, I see zero reason why Danielson should remain the No. 1 contender. It's the obligation of the opponent to beat the champion. Danielson had one hour and failed to do it. He had his change and didn't win. On top of that, the match ended with Page hitting his finisher and running out of time before the win. So even extended 3 seconds, Danielson would have lost. Page doesn't have to beat him. Danielson has to win. They should have had Page tap out one second after the time ran out to the lebell lock and that would have given Danielson more legitimacy to his claim for a second opportunity IMO.


----------



## DUSTY 74 (Aug 11, 2021)

Soul Rex said:


> Well if you watch a 70's match, it was as much as ridiculous as any todays match, the coreography, the circus and the spot calling was evident, old wrestling still looked like fake shit.. In fact, some Lesnar's stiff matches today look way more real.
> 
> Same with the globetrotters, sports entertainment is the best to describe what they did, they were a fucking shit show.
> 
> With time passing, technology coming along, people getting smarter.. It was just due time that people will understand everything was just a show, Vince just went ahead of time and invented the word "sports entertainment" and accepted his faith.. Some people don't like it, but It was just a business move.



In Which TK astutely followed in the footsteps of when filing for his new venture 
The AEW trademarks as Sports Entertainment 🤯









AEW Trademark of All Elite Wrestling, LLC - Registration Number 6170081 - Serial Number 88182060 :: Justia Trademarks


Video and computer game tapes, video and computer game discs, video and computer game cartridges; downloadable video and computer game software; cinematographic and television films featuring sports, entertainment and subjects of general human interest; pre-recorded dvds, all featuring sports...




trademarks.justia.com


----------



## DammitChrist (Apr 3, 2016)

Soul Rex said:


> Well if you watch a 70's match, it was as much as ridiculous as any todays match, the coreography, the circus and the spot calling was evident, old wrestling still looked like fake shit.. In fact, some Lesnar's stiff matches today look way more real.
> 
> Same with the globetrotters, sports entertainment is the best to describe what they did, they were a fucking shit show.
> 
> With time passing, technology coming along, people getting smarter.. It was just due time that people will understand everything was just a show, Vince just went ahead of time and invented the word "sports entertainment" and accepted his faith.. Some people don't like it, but It was just a business move.


I can't believe that you're still pretending that professional wrestling and 'sports entertainment' are "exactly the same" when they're clearly not.


----------



## validreasoning (Jul 4, 2012)

DUSTY 74 said:


> In Which TK astutely followed in the footsteps of when filing for his new venture
> The AEW trademarks as Sports Entertainment 🤯
> 
> 
> ...


Tony Khan is following in Vince's footsteps to a tee just like Bischoff did.

I would like to see someone take a chance and produce a non sports entertainment show with a big budget but nobody past 30 years has been willing to take that chance


----------



## Soul Rex (Nov 26, 2017)

DammitChrist said:


> I can't believe that you're still pretending that professional wrestling and 'sports entertainment' are "exactly the same" when they're clearly not.


The only professional wrestling that is not sports entertainment is this.










I'm betting my ass you don't anything about this sport.. Better to watch Indy spotmonkeys dong flips and pretend it's real, "such proffezional wraztling is so better, moar raeal". Nah buddy it's all fake and gay. 😆


----------



## DammitChrist (Apr 3, 2016)

Soul Rex said:


> The only professional wrestling that is not sports entertainment is this.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Misinformed insights like yours are why Indy wrestlers (who happen to be pushed) should continue to be pushed or spotlighted very well just to prove you wrong about them being a "disgrace" to *professional wrestling.*

Thankfully, this company is about professional wrestling (instead of the nonsensical 'sports entertainment' crap)


----------



## Soul Rex (Nov 26, 2017)

DammitChrist said:


> Misinformed insights like yours are why Indy wrestlers (who happen to be pushed) should continue to be pushed or spotlighted very well just to prove you wrong about them being a "disgrace" to *professional wrestling.*
> 
> Thankfully, this company is about professional wrestling (instead of the nonsensical 'sports entertainment' crap)


Why don't you stop changing the subject and tell who is the greatest college wrestler of all time.


----------



## Brad Boyd (Jan 28, 2020)

DammitChrist said:


> Misinformed insights like yours are why Indy wrestlers (who happen to be pushed) should continue to be pushed or spotlighted very well just to prove you wrong about them being a "disgrace" to *professional wrestling.*
> 
> Thankfully, this company is about professional wrestling (instead of the nonsensical 'sports entertainment' crap)


They are both the exact same thing. Pro wrestling, sports entertainment... its all the same shit. As long as wrestling includes acting and storylines, it'll be considered sports entertainment.

I do not know why this has to be explained to people. This whole debate is silly and i'm starting to laugh at you people for arguing this shit to death.


----------



## DammitChrist (Apr 3, 2016)

Brad Boyd said:


> They are both the exact same thing. Pro wrestling, sports entertainment... its all the same shit. As long as wrestling includes acting and storylines, it'll be considered sports entertainment.
> 
> I do not know why this has to be explained to people. This whole debate is silly and i'm starting to laugh at you people for arguing this shit to death.


Sorry man, but it's already been explained on here multiple times that professional wrestling and sports entertainment aren't the same at all.

AEW and NJPW both focus on the former whereas WWE focuses on the latter.

It's not even a coincidence that wrestling shows that primarily focus more on the wrestling (such as Dynamite, Rampage, NJPW events in general, NXT UK, and Indy NXT) tend to be better than shows that don't value it at all (such as Smackdown plus NXT 2.0).

Hell, even Raw has been more watchable now since the draft since they at least showcase the wrestling more (in spite of some of the flaws for that show).


----------



## Brad Boyd (Jan 28, 2020)

DammitChrist said:


> Sorry man, but it's already been explained on here multiple times that professional wrestling and sports entertainment aren't the same at all.


By who, you? Where's the great explanation between the two? I've yet to see it. That's why I'm laughing at a lot of you.





> AEW and NJPW both focus on the former whereas WWE focuses on the latter.


Just beause NJPW and AEW focus on more workrate, doesn't mean those companies don't include sports entertainment. They are not devoid of storylines, angles and silly shenanigans. It is all sports entertainment.





> It's not even a coincidence that wrestling shows that primarily focus more on the wrestling (such as Dynamite, Rampage, NJPW events in general, NXT UK, and Indy NXT) tend to be better than shows that don't value it at all (such as Smackdown plus NXT 2.0).


If sports entertainment is all about angles and storylines and pro wrestling is simply about ring work, good shows should be a mix of both. Personally I like Smackdown a lot more because there is less wrestling and more promo work. But as long as there is wrestlign involved in shows like Smackdown or Raw, they are still pro wrestling companies.


----------



## Blade Runner (Jan 24, 2012)

DammitChrist said:


> Sorry man, but it's already been explained on here multiple times that professional wrestling and sports entertainment aren't the same at all.
> 
> AEW and NJPW both focus on the former whereas WWE focuses on the latter.
> 
> ...


Please, AEW has a dude wrestling with his hands in his pants.


----------



## DammitChrist (Apr 3, 2016)

KYRA BATARA said:


> Please, AEW has a dude wrestling with his hands in his pants.


Orange Cassidy still happens to be a great wrestler who's over as hell, and his character is awesome


----------



## El Hammerstone (Jan 11, 2020)

KYRA BATARA said:


> Please, AEW has a dude wrestling with his hands in his pants.


OC was tailor made for 24/7 title bullshit


----------



## Blade Runner (Jan 24, 2012)

DammitChrist said:


> Orange Cassidy still happens to be a great wrestler who's over as hell, and his character is awesome


Maybe, but it's Chikara-like shenanigans. The aim is to be entertaining via goofy mannerisms.

Professional Wrestling _is _Sports Entertainment. AEW isn't a pseudo-sport like the UWF-i . They're not trying to emulate real fights. The product is a mix of exaggerated drama/comedy in and outside of the ring. Exactly like the WWE. Just because you believe that the matches are more fun to watch doesn't fundamentally make it something that it's not.


----------



## validreasoning (Jul 4, 2012)

The modern 'in-ring' style regardless of fed is pure sports entertainment so anyone saying promo and segments are sports entertainment while matches are pro wrestling are wrong.

Pro wrestling as it was back in day is almost unrecognisable by modern (since 1984) audiences. There is a reason Lou Thesz called Hulk Hogan an 'entertainer' and 'not a wrestler'

All the modern big names Austin, Undertaker, Sting, Rock, Cena, Punk, Warrior, Savage, Flair, Shawn even Bret would fall into entertainer category same with all the main names today like Omega, Bryan, Reigns, Rollins


----------



## 3venflow (Feb 3, 2019)

So basically, every wrestling promotion in the world is sports-entertainment because Vince McMahon coined the term (mainly for legal reasons) for his promotion? New Japan, NOAH, CMLL, ROH and many other promotions would also not want to be labelled that. All have 'gimmicked' wrestlers and storylines. You also find most wrestlers who leave the Fed distinguish between the two. The latest:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1472038417034723332


----------



## Blade Runner (Jan 24, 2012)

3venflow said:


> So basically, every wrestling promotion in the world is sports-entertainment because Vince McMahon coined the term (mainly for legal reasons) for his promotion? New Japan, NOAH, CMLL, ROH and many other promotions would also not want to be labelled that. All have 'gimmicked' wrestlers and storylines. You also find most wrestlers who leave the Fed distinguish between the two. The latest:


It's semantics. Vince coined it something, but that _something _is Professional Wrestling rebranded to better fit one's interpretation of it.

Different promotions present the genre in different ways, but it's all pretend fighting with caricatural characters involved in fictional storylines.

McDonalds and Subway are both fast-food chains, even if they offer different menus with one branding itself as the healthier alternative.


----------



## 3venflow (Feb 3, 2019)

I mean, to the general public it's still 'wrestling'. Just as it is to EVERY promotion in the world bar one.

Just because that one no longer likes the term 'rasslin' (well, Vince hasn't for years) doesn't mean the rest don't. One man cannot define what *every other promotion* considers itself.

This term is not even in the vocabulary of most promotions in the world, so until Vince McMahon owns them all, he nor anyone else can put them in this category that didn't even exist before Vince coined it for 'business reasons'.

You can go all the way back to the 90s when ECW made a point of not being 'sports entertainment' even though they had gimmicks, storylines, etc. That's because the term is associated with the WWE style so companies that stress ring work more make a point of calling themselves 'pro wrestling'.

Try telling New Japan they are 'sports-entertainment' and they'll laugh at you, even though you have Togo's bullshit interference booking. Hell, it's even covered in the sports pages over there and kayfabe is still respected.


----------



## Blade Runner (Jan 24, 2012)

3venflow said:


> I mean, to the general public it's still 'wrestling'. Just as it is to EVERY promotion in the world bar one.
> 
> Just because that one no longer likes the term 'rasslin' (well, Vince hasn't for years) doesn't mean the rest don't. One man cannot define what *every other promotion* considers itself.
> 
> ...


I think that you might be missing the point.


I don't see anyone advocating for the term "Sports-Entertainment" to be applied to every promotion in the world.


The point is that both terms mean essentially the same thing. If someone says that AEW is Professional Wrestling and not Sports-Entertainment, then they've fooled themselves into thinking that the terms mean different things. If someone says that AEW presents their product _differently, _then this could make more sense depending on the cited examples.


----------



## DammitChrist (Apr 3, 2016)

KYRA BATARA said:


> I think that you might be missing the point.
> 
> 
> I don't think that anyone is advocating for the term "Sports-Entertainment" to be applied to every promotion in the world.
> ...


Nah, AEW IS a (good) representation of professional wrestling.


----------



## Blade Runner (Jan 24, 2012)

DammitChrist said:


> Nah, AEW IS a representation of professional wrestling.


So is the WWE.


----------



## DammitChrist (Apr 3, 2016)

KYRA BATARA said:


> So is the WWE.


Nah, the WWE represents sports entertainment instead.

Edit:

Only NXT UK and (possibly) parts of Raw feature professional wrestling to a good extent atm.


----------



## Blade Runner (Jan 24, 2012)

DammitChrist said:


> Nah, the WWE represents sports entertainment instead.


What are the differences, in your opinion?


----------



## Dr. Middy (Jan 21, 2015)

I'm not sure why people care all that much, it's really just professional wrestling in the end, or simply wrestling. Pretty much the entire world would refer to WWE/AEW/NJPW/CMLL/AAA/AJPW etc as just wrestling, not sports entertainment. 

The only reason the argument even exists to me is a bunch of hardcore fans just not wanting to be associated with WWE's coined phrase. Realistically, AEW and WWE or what have you are still just professional wrestling at the end of the day, sports entertainment was just a nice buzzword to eliminate wrestling as a used term.


----------



## DammitChrist (Apr 3, 2016)

KYRA BATARA said:


> What are the differences, in your opinion?


For one, Smackdown recently did an episode a few weeks ago where the show featured about *17 minutes of actual wrestling* in its 2-hour show.


----------



## 3venflow (Feb 3, 2019)

KYRA BATARA said:


> The point is that both terms mean essentially the same thing. If someone says that AEW is Professional Wrestling and not Sports-Entertainment, then they've fooled themselves into thinking that the terms mean different things. If someone says that AEW presents the formula _differently, _then this makes far more sense.


What I'm saying is if there are 100 companies in the world, perhaps 99 of them will not want the word 'sports entertainment' spoken on their show. It's a WWE creation and I believe it was never used by WCW (unless Russo snuck it in), TNA or AEW. Therefore, there is nothing wrong with saying the two things are not the same when the sports-entertainment term was created by the owner of that one other company.

Let's say AEW decided to define itself as 'fighting opera' tomorrow. Should the entire industry have to conform to that classification? Nope.


----------



## Blade Runner (Jan 24, 2012)

DammitChrist said:


> For one, Smackdown recently did an episode a few weeks ago where the show featured about *17 minutes of actual wrestling* in its 2-hour show.


Ok, so you think that Professional Wrestling only applies to the in-ring component then.


----------



## Blade Runner (Jan 24, 2012)

3venflow said:


> What I'm saying is if there are 100 companies in the world, perhaps 99 of them will not want the word 'sports entertainment' spoken on their show. It's a WWE creation and I believe it was never used by WCW (unless Russo snuck it in), TNA or AEW. Therefore, there is nothing wrong with saying the two things are not the same when the sports-entertainment term was created by the owner of that one other company.
> 
> Let's say AEW decided to define itself as 'fighting opera' tomorrow. Should the entire industry have to conform to that classification? Nope.


That's Vince's rebranding of what his product essentially is... which is Professional Wrestling. Nobody is saying that the rebranded term isn't disparaging. Nobody is saying that AEW (or all the other promotions) are _not_ Professional Wrestling.

If AEW referred to itself as "Fighting Opera" then they'd simply be rebranding themselves with their own terminology. It's a marketing strategy, but the genre remains the same.


----------



## Soul Rex (Nov 26, 2017)

DammitChrist said:


> Sorry man, but it's already been explained on here multiple times that professional wrestling and sports entertainment aren't the same at all.
> 
> AEW and NJPW both focus on the former whereas WWE focuses on the latter.
> 
> ...


How old are you lmao.


----------



## DammitChrist (Apr 3, 2016)

Soul Rex said:


> How old are you lmao.


I'm 24 years old, but that's irrelevant here.


----------



## Soul Rex (Nov 26, 2017)

DammitChrist said:


> I'm 24 years old, but that's irrelevant here.


Yo sure you aren't 12?


----------



## DammitChrist (Apr 3, 2016)

Soul Rex said:


> Yo sure you aren't 12?


That's exactly the kind of typical response I expect from someone who's clearly incapable of differentiating between professional wrestling and 'sports entertainment.'


----------



## Soul Rex (Nov 26, 2017)

DammitChrist said:


> That's exactly the kind of typical response I expect from someone who's clearly incapable of differentiating between professional wrestling and 'sports entertainment.'


So you are 12.


----------



## Hephaesteus (Aug 20, 2018)

WWE is bleeding all over the place, AEW should be making wwe put their mouth on the curb, instead, they're continually shooting themselves in the foot with these constant booking errors that even an amateur booker would tell you is a bad idea.


----------



## DammitChrist (Apr 3, 2016)

Soul Rex said:


> So you are 12.


Refer to my previous post.


----------



## Irish Jet (Nov 15, 2011)

It was ridiculously obvious after 30 minutes where they were going with it. You could see them pacing themselves the whole way through. It would have been better as an actual Iron Man match. It was trash.


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

excalibur41389 said:


> While the match itself was good, the story behind it and moving out of it is terrible. As mentioned, Page couldn't even beat a weakened Bryan Danielson. But more than that, I see zero reason why Danielson should remain the No. 1 contender. It's the obligation of the opponent to beat the champion. Danielson had one hour and failed to do it. He had his change and didn't win. On top of that, the match ended with Page hitting his finisher and running out of time before the win. So even extended 3 seconds, Danielson would have lost. Page doesn't have to beat him. Danielson has to win. They should have had Page tap out one second after the time ran out to the lebell lock and that would have given Danielson more legitimacy to his claim for a second opportunity IMO.


Beautifully stated and mirrors my exact thoughts to a T. Every single point.


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

Dr. Middy said:


> I'm not sure why people care all that much, it's really just professional wrestling in the end, or simply wrestling. Pretty much the entire world would refer to WWE/AEW/NJPW/CMLL/AAA/AJPW etc as just wrestling, not sports entertainment.
> 
> The only reason the argument even exists to me is a bunch of hardcore fans just not wanting to be associated with WWE's coined phrase. Realistically, AEW and WWE or what have you are still just professional wrestling at the end of the day, sports entertainment was just a nice buzzword to eliminate wrestling as a used term.


For me, only one show does the invisible cameraman where staged dialogues occur, sharing the characters’ feelings and even strategic gameplans - something akin to an episode straight out of Days of Our Lives.

For me, THAT is why I only refer to WWE as Sports Entertainment, and I have been using that (among other thjngs) as my reason for not watching WWE, even dating back to the Attitude Era. The backstage “scenes” with the invisible cameraman have and will always take me out of it. If AEW starts trying to emulate it, then I’ll be completely out of wrestling.

Again.


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

It’s all men and women dressing up and playing a character in a staged fight. ALL OF IT. ALLLLLL…OF…ITTTTT!!!

Yet only one company (that I know of anyways) implores an invisible cameraman to film segments backstage that play out like a movie where said characters have to run their dialogue with each other while pretending that goddamn cameraman isn’t right there.

Why? Because as Vince McMahon has always put it, he wants to “make movies” via his wrestling.


----------



## La Parka (Oct 28, 2008)

Randy Lahey said:


> WWE is produced like a soap opera. It always has been. AEW is produced like a sporting event.
> 
> The two couldn’t possibly get any different.
> 
> Hence AEW’s emphasis on W/L record to create the illusion of a real sport. Their emphasis on work rate, longer matches, actual action


What the fuck kind of sporting events have you been watching?!


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

La Parka said:


> What the fuck kind of sporting events have you been watching?!


The kind that don’t involve invisible cameramen filming the coaches laying out their dastardly ways to cheat while the refs, opponents, commissioner, and other governing bodies pretend to not have seen that bit of information.

Unless we’re talking about a sports MOVIE.


----------



## Seth Grimes (Jul 31, 2015)

What an utterly pointless match. Give me this at a big PPV, when they're in a bitter feud, and there's SOME believability of him losing the title. It would bang like all hell. Not on a random episode where you know there is 0% chance Hangman loses, and their rivalry is pretty tame, meaning there's nothing to be tense about during this. If you enjoyed this, you may as well just go start watching ballet, or choreographed dancing troupes tbh.

Oh, and Sports Entertainment IS "Pro Wrestling". Actually weird to even emphasise on calling it pro wrestling, when in reality real wrestling is nothing like what we see on any of these shows.


----------



## Blade Runner (Jan 24, 2012)

bdon said:


> The kind that don’t involve invisible cameramen filming the coaches laying out their dastardly ways to cheat while the refs, opponents, commissioner, and other governing bodies pretend to not have seen that bit of information.
> 
> Unless we’re talking about a sports MOVIE.



Take the cameraman shit out of it, and you're still a long way away from _any _wrestling promotion on the planet to remotely resemble a legitimate sporting competition.


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

KYRA BATARA said:


> Take the cameraman shit out of it, and you're still a long way away from _any _wrestling promotion on the planet to remotely resemble a legitimate sporting competition.


But the invisible cameraman filming a movie scene backstage is simply just such a LARGE part of Vince’s universe. Name any other wrestling show, outside of the WWE, that tries to present wrestling as a movie with actual scenes being acted out in front of an INVISIBLE CAMERAMAN.


----------



## Blade Runner (Jan 24, 2012)

bdon said:


> But the invisible cameraman filming a movie scene backstage is simply just such a LARGE part of Vince’s universe. Name any other wrestling show, outside of the WWE, that tries to present wrestling as a movie with actual scenes being acted out in front of an INVISIBLE CAMERAMAN.


IMPACT Wrestling?


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

KYRA BATARA said:


> IMPACT Wrestling?


Lmfaooo

Ok then. Impact is Sports Entertainment, too. Don’t really watch it, although I did keep up with it via YouTube to see Kenny’s segments over there.


----------



## Blade Runner (Jan 24, 2012)

bdon said:


> Lmfaooo


Doesn't count as a wrestling promotion?


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

KYRA BATARA said:


> Doesn't count as a wrestling promotion?


I mean, it does, but I was mainly focusing on shows that are actually watched. I do remember the invisible cameraman bullshit being pretty prevalent when I returned for a while just to watch the Joker Sting vs Hogan stuff. Seemed they did a lot of pretending to not see the cameraman, IIRC.


----------



## Blade Runner (Jan 24, 2012)

bdon said:


> I mean, it does, but I was mainly focusing on shows that are actually watched. I do remember the invisible cameraman bullshit being pretty prevalent when I returned for a while just to watch the Joker Sting vs Hogan stuff. Seemed they did a lot of pretending to not see the cameraman, IIRC.


They started doing Lucha Underground-type "movie" scenes around 2017. Jeremy Borash produced a lot of it.


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

KYRA BATARA said:


> They started doing Lucha Underground-type "movie" scenes around 2017. Jeremy Borash produced a lot of it.


Ah. I remember someone mentioning Tommy Dreamer with a gun or some shit, too?

THAT is what I think of when I think sports entertainment. Shit like that. Or the Bunny apparently being “killed off”? That’s even more Sports Entertainment than the E.

it’s all fake, but for ME…backstage movie scenes and invisible cameramen kill the suspension of disbelie that I am watching a great improv sketch show and am reminded that this is fully scripted and retarded.

And I don’t blame anyone who watches an OC hands in the pockets spot and feels the same. I can only speak for myself: when it feels like too much like a movie, it is sports ENTERTAINMENT.


----------



## Blade Runner (Jan 24, 2012)

bdon said:


> Ah. I remember someone mentioning Tommy Dreamer with a gun or some shit, too?
> 
> THAT is what I think of when I think sports entertainment. Shit like that. Or the Bunny apparently being “killed off”? That’s even more Sports Entertainment than the E.
> 
> it’s all fake, but for ME…backstage movie scenes and invisible cameramen kill the suspension of disbelie that I am watching a great improv sketch show and am reminded that this is fully scripted and retarded.


Well, this kind of thing isn't exclusive to the WWE. I mean, they had ROBOCOP saving Sting, and CHUCKY feuding with Rick Steiner in WCW.


At the end of the day, even NJPW and AEW make it hard to suspend disbelief. Do you think that any human on earth would kick out of a top-rope tombstone piledriver and continue the match as if nothing happened?


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

KYRA BATARA said:


> Well, this kind of thing isn't exclusive to the WWE. I mean, they had ROBOCOP saving Sting, and CHUCKY feuding with Rick Steiner in WCW.
> 
> 
> At the end of the day, even in NJPW and AEW it's hard to suspend disbelief. Do you think that any human on earth would kick out of a top-rope tombstone piledriver and continue the match as if nothing happened?


No, and that’s why I shit on Sammy and MJF (who normally doesn’t pull that shit) for going with that spot. It was fucking stupid. Just like Sting and RoboCop or Steiner having to sell talking to a doll from a horror movie.

Do not make wrestling into a movie. It is ALWAYS cringe for me. Thankfully WCW didn’t lean on those things. Vince has been attempting to make his wrestling into a weekly “movie” for over 2 decades, and now he’s apparently added these weird camera cutscenes on every fucking punch or kick.


----------



## Brad Boyd (Jan 28, 2020)

validreasoning said:


> The modern 'in-ring' style regardless of fed is pure sports entertainment so anyone saying promo and segments are sports entertainment while matches are pro wrestling are wrong.
> 
> Pro wrestling as it was back in day is almost unrecognisable by modern (since 1984) audiences. There is a reason Lou Thesz called Hulk Hogan an 'entertainer' and 'not a wrestler'
> 
> All the modern big names Austin, Undertaker, Sting, Rock, Cena, Punk, Warrior, Savage, Flair, Shawn even Bret would fall into entertainer category same with all the main names today like Omega, Bryan, Reigns, Rollins


Fair point. But when people say AEW and NJPW feature more pro wrestling than sports entertainment.. how would that be the case if it were true? What would make something more sports entertainment than pro wrestling and vice versa? To me the two things are intertwined.


----------



## Blade Runner (Jan 24, 2012)

bdon said:


> No, and that’s why I shit on Sammy and MJF (who normally doesn’t pull that shit) for going with that spot. It was fucking stupid. Just like Sting and RoboCop or Steiner having to sell talking to a doll from a horror movie.
> 
> Do not make wrestling into a movie. It is ALWAYS cringe for me. Thankfully WCW didn’t lean on those things. Vince has been attempting to make his wrestling into a weekly “movie” for over 2 decades, and now he’s apparently added these weird camera cutscenes on every fucking punch or kick.


I'm not a huge fan of the technique ether, but my point is that it doesn't make the WWE any less of a Professional Wrestling company than AEW, or any other promotion out there.

There's some promotions that'll _try_ to make the action and feuds look more believable, but anyone over the age of 10 will notice that it's fixed as soon as they start irish-whipping each other on the ropes. It's all noticeably make-believe, and thankfully it can _sometimes_ be extremely entertaining to watch depending on the people involved.


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

KYRA BATARA said:


> I'm not a huge fan of the technique ether, but my point is that it doesn't make the WWE any less of a Professional Wrestling company than AEW, or any other promotion out there.
> 
> There's some promotions that'll _try_ to make the action and feuds look more believable, but anyone over the age of 10 will notice that it's fixed as soon as they start irish-whipping each other on the ropes. It's all noticeably make-believe, and thankfully it can _sometimes_ be extremely entertaining to watch.


Well, I never claim it to not be a professional wrestling company. To me, “sports entertainment” is just a description to say the show is going to feature a shit ton of invisible cameras that require me to accept I am watching as realistic as any other movie. And now I am no longer invested in the episode.

Orange Cassidy kills my suspension of disbelief as well, but I am not forced to watch him before every commercial break and coming out of every commercial break to remind me it is all fake either.

Again…only speaking for myself.


----------



## BrrrGoesWooo! (Mar 29, 2021)

KYRA BATARA said:


> That's Vince's rebranding of what his product essentially is... which is Professional Wrestling. Nobody is saying that the rebranded term isn't disparaging. Nobody is saying that AEW (or all the other promotions) are _not_ Professional Wrestling.
> 
> If AEW referred to itself as "Fighting Opera" then they'd simply be rebranding themselves with their own terminology. It's a marketing strategy, _but the genre remains the same._


The medium does, the genre doesn't.


----------



## Blade Runner (Jan 24, 2012)

BrrrGoesWooo! said:


> The medium does, the genre doesn't.


.
You're right. My mistake.


----------



## 3venflow (Feb 3, 2019)

So pretty much everyone in the business who has commented on this match has praised it hugely. Cornette compared it to Steamboat/Flair.

Could go down as a classic in future since a lot of matches are more appreciated when they become 'old'.


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## Sad Panda (Aug 16, 2021)

This match


3venflow said:


> So pretty much everyone in the business who has commented on this match has praised it hugely. Cornette compared it to Steamboat/Flair.


Yeah, Cornette heaped massive amounts of praise on it.


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## Leviticus (May 1, 2020)

Lets get one thing straight. AEW has as much sports entertaiment as wwe. When you have overbook, overchoreograhed spot matches, where guys are obviously working together, thats sports entertainment, not pro wrestling. The Young Bucks are SE by definition, as they don't care about suspension of disbelief or making matches look real.. All that matters is getting their shit in and popping fans with big overly complicated spots that look completel reherse and fake. It gets especiaaly bad when they literally stand in one spot, obviously waiting for someone to hit a big spot.


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## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

Leviticus said:


> Lets get one thing straight. AEW has as much sports entertaiment as wwe. When you have overbook, overchoreograhed spot matches, where guys are obviously working together, thats sports entertainment, not pro wrestling. The Young Bucks are SE by definition, as they don't care about suspension of disbelief or making matches look real.. All that matters is getting their shit in and popping fans with big overly complicated spots that look completel reherse and fake. It gets especiaaly bad when they literally stand in one spot, obviously waiting for someone to hit a big spot.


Remind me when they start using invisible cameramen to show the audience a heel’s devious backstage plans while forcing the babyface to pretend they don’t know anything about it.


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## Kenny's Ghost (Nov 23, 2020)

Leviticus said:


> Lets get one thing straight. AEW has as much sports entertaiment as wwe. When you have overbook, overchoreograhed spot matches, where guys are obviously working together, thats sports entertainment, not pro wrestling. The Young Bucks are SE by definition, as they don't care about suspension of disbelief or making matches look real.. All that matters is getting their shit in and popping fans with big overly complicated spots that look completel reherse and fake. It gets especiaaly bad when they literally stand in one spot, obviously waiting for someone to hit a big spot.


All wrestling is "sports entertainment" or "athletic entertainment" and it's ridiculous to argue otherwise. Just say you hate a certain style and move on.


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## Jay Trotter (Apr 10, 2019)

Ridiculously too long of a match. Momentum shot by endless commercial breaks. Was relieved when it finally ended. You save a marathon like this for PPV. Never have a TV match go beyond 30 minutes. You need to have a balance in your segments over the two hours. Saying it's wrestling on a wrestling show is like saying a weekly hospital drama should be medical talk for an whole hour. No. Find a variety. It's entertainment. Interesting that the following week that had a little bit of everything did a far better rating. Kudos to Bryan and Page for working their asses off. But Tony should never book this again.


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