# Independent wrestlers Ariela Nyx alleges an unamed AEW Talent sexually assaulted her Summerslam 2013 weekend



## shadow_spinner (Dec 6, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1273703217310904320

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1273704701272502273


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## One Shed (Jan 7, 2014)

Yeah that year and being on AEW every Wednesday certainly narrows it down. Only about three I can think of...


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## imthegame19 (Oct 12, 2008)

People on Reddit are saying it's Hager. She said the guy was married at the time(Hager was married since 2010). Which rules out Jon Moxley since him and Renee just started dating in 2013 I believe. Cody and Brandi got married in 2013 and Brodie Lee got married in 2008.


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## MontyCora (Aug 31, 2016)

Good news EC3, the Inner Circle needs new muscle!

A response she liked in Twitter said "So it's either Brodie, Jericho, JR, or Dustin?"

Oh my God... JR you old horndog!


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## RiverFenix (Dec 10, 2011)

Reading that #speakingout hashtag, Jimmy Havoc has also been mentioned. He would cut himself and threaten suicide to control his then GF is the accusation.

A lot of NXTUK names - WWE commented just when Jordan Devlin accusations were out. Joe Coffey, Ligero, Travis Banks all mentioned. Big E Langston and Tucker Knight have tweeted out support of the women coming forward.

Marty Scurll named as well.

It's really blowing up.


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## kazarn (May 8, 2020)

Couldn't it be Moxley? Guess Hager makes the most sense though


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## RiverFenix (Dec 10, 2011)

kazarn said:


> Couldn't it be Moxley? Guess Hager makes the most sense though


Moxley wasn't married at the time. Victim said she knew her attacker was married and still trying to talk her up to his room.

Brodie, Jericho, Hager seem to be the AEW talent under contract with WWE in 2013 who were married. Cody married Brandi in September 2013, which would have been post-Sumerslam.


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## CM Buck (Sep 2, 2012)

Come on honey, I've got the moves like ssssssswagger. I'm sorry it was there.

If it was brodie holy fuck the DO and gimp masks and overall cult thing just got terrifying.

Jericho I don't buy it. His whole reputation is based on him being a sweet guy

Dustin, well his a repressed Christian that's pretty stereotypical predator right there.

JR in 2013 had all sorts of health issues with bell palsy I think


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## Jazminator (Jan 9, 2018)

Why doesn’t she just come out and name him?


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## One Shed (Jan 7, 2014)

Jazminator said:


> Why doesn’t she just come out and name him?


Opens herself up to libel if she has no actual evidence.


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## Jazminator (Jan 9, 2018)

Good point.


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## RiverFenix (Dec 10, 2011)

Also regarding Hager she accuser liked this tweet -


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1273713736726065152
No mention of Jake. Brodie, Dustin, JR and Jericho mentioned. JR unlikely as the women said she wouldn't have been able to fight back/stop any assault attempt if it went further.


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## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

Tony Khan and some of the people on this forum are cool with sexual assault though. I remember like a 10 page argument where many people argued that booking Mike Tyson was fine despite being a convicted rapist.


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## CM Buck (Sep 2, 2012)

Chip Chipperson said:


> Tony Khan and some of the people on this forum are cool with sexual assault though. I remember like a 10 page argument where many people argued that booking Mike Tyson was fine despite being a convicted rapist.


Don't be disgusting. That's way out of line. Just because you don't believe people can be rehabilitated doesn't mean we all do.

Yeah Tyson was a thug doesn't mean he still is


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## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

Firefromthegods said:


> Don't be disgusting. That's way out of line. Just because you don't believe people can be rehabilitated doesn't mean we all do.
> 
> Yeah Tyson was a thug doesn't mean he still is


I believe people can rehabilitate but many people on here made their views on sexual assault or harassment known when this came up. If it came out that Brodie Lee (Obviously wasn't him, I'll explain below) sexually assaulted this poor lady then some would be all for sweeping it under the rug and having him keep his job simply because he's an AEW guy. Maybe I'm incorrect, maybe it's uncalled for but that's the vibe I got from the Tyson thread when it was originally posted.

In regards to who it was, Ariela Nyx says she was on independent shows with the person a few times. Sooo:

Brodie Lee - Can't be him because he hasn't worked any independents and Nyx never wrestled for the WWE. He jumped from WWE to AEW right away with no shows in between.

Chris Jericho - Same as Brodie Lee. Can't be him because he hasn't worked any independents and Nyx hasn't worked for AEW, NJPW or WWE.

Dustin Rhodes - Same as the other two, he wrestled for WWE for all those years and then jumped to AEW. 

That leaves the answer being JR but that doesn't make sense either because she specifically says wrestler and that he was too strong for her to fight back against. 

The ones that make the most sense are Jake Hager or Moxley. Maybe Nyx mistakingly thought one of those two were married at the time but they're the only two that really worked indies but even then Moxley's appearances on the indies have been quite limited also. Jake did 3 years of independents including lower end indies so he's most likely the guy.


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## Botchy SinCara (Apr 24, 2013)

This was seven years ago ...why is it a habit to wait almost a decade or more to speak out and then not have anything to back up those accusations ? And also always seem to be when someone gets more known


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## CM Buck (Sep 2, 2012)

Chip Chipperson said:


> I believe people can rehabilitate but many people on here made their views on sexual assault or harassment known when this came up. If it came out that Brodie Lee (Obviously wasn't him, I'll explain below) sexually assaulted this poor lady then some would be all for sweeping it under the rug and having him keep his job simply because he's an AEW guy. Maybe I'm incorrect, maybe it's uncalled for but that's the vibe I got from the Tyson thread when it was originally posted.
> 
> In regards to who it was, Ariela Nyx says she was on independent shows with the person a few times. Sooo:
> 
> ...


Like I said most people don't give a damn about Tyson anymore because he went to prison for it. To harp on it would be moot. It's been dealt with. Aew can work with him cause his been punished.

Until a name is named they can't do jack. She hasn't definitively named someone. That doesn't mean her accusations sre invalid. But a name has to be named for us to see if khan sweeps it under the rug. Otherwise his just taking 5 people off air and 4 could be innocent


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## One Shed (Jan 7, 2014)

Botchy SinCara said:


> This was seven years ago ...why is it a habit to wait almost a decade or more to speak out and then not have anything to back up those accusations ? And also always seem to be when someone gets more known


People get strength when others share their stories first. It helps you feel less alone. And if it is Hager, he is definitely not more known today than he was when he was World Champ and in a much larger world-wide known company.


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## Jazminator (Jan 9, 2018)

Botchy SinCara said:


> This was seven years ago ...why is it a habit to wait almost a decade or more to speak out and then not have anything to back up those accusations ? And also always seem to be when someone gets more known


The comic book industry is going through the same thing today. It seems to stem from the political climate we’re currently in. From politics to news organizations to Hollywood to the corporate world, it’s become the thing to do. That’s obviously good in some ways, and dangerous in other ways.


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## alex0816 (Jul 27, 2011)

damn dude what a day.

Jimmy Havoc is a mentally abusive spouse
Dave Lagana put his hands down a girls pants
Cornette the cuck and his batshit wife
now possibly Hager 

damn dude


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## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

alex0816 said:


> damn dude what a day.
> 
> Jimmy Havoc is a mentally abusive spouse
> Dave Lagana put his hands down a girls pants
> ...


I didn't know about the Cornette story until this post. Imagine my surprise (Legitimate surprise) when I Googled Corny's name today.

Oh lawd Cornette, what have you done?


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## The Sheik (Jul 10, 2017)

Wrestlers are scumbags.


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## MontyCora (Aug 31, 2016)

Chip Chipperson said:


> I didn't know about the Cornette story until this post. Imagine my surprise (Legitimate surprise) when I Googled Corny's name today.
> 
> Oh lawd Cornette, what have you done?


Look Chip... There's frankly no way for me to say this without coming off like a sexist chauvinist pig, but I've got to get it out somewhere so why not here...

Cornette's wife is a fucking Hog. Seriously, he couldn't do better than a fucking 3? I heard the story from Lance and Jericho that his taste in women was... A low bar, but Jesus.


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## Peerless (Aug 28, 2014)

MontyCora said:


> Look Chip... There's frankly no way for me to say this without coming off like a sexist chauvinist pig, but I've got to get it out somewhere so why not here...
> 
> Cornette's wife is a fucking Hog. Seriously, he couldn't do better than a fucking 3? I heard the story from Lance and Jericho that his taste in women was... A low bar, but Jesus.


I just looked at the pics. A 3 is being kind bro. I'm disgusted right now. Goodness gracious.


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## MontyCora (Aug 31, 2016)

Peerless said:


> I just looked at the pics. A 3 is being kind bro. I'm disgusted right now. Goodness gracious.


Some guys are into dumpster diving I guess it's a kink, but you don't put a fucking ring on it.


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## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

MontyCora said:


> Look Chip... There's frankly no way for me to say this without coming off like a sexist chauvinist pig, but I've got to get it out somewhere so why not here...
> 
> Cornette's wife is a fucking Hog. Seriously, he couldn't do better than a fucking 3? I heard the story from Lance and Jericho that his taste in women was... A low bar, but Jesus.


Admittedly she's not my cup of tea but sometimes people fall for people based on personality or are into their look. I've seen some really great looking guys and girls (Not that Cornette is a prize himself) that are with people I would class as ugly. 

Former Australian Rugby League captain and one of the greatest players of all time in Cameron Smith is a relatively good looking dude, obviously in shape (Still plays football) and makes a million dollars a year as a salary but has an ugly wife. He's definitely famous enough, wealthy enough and good looking enough to get some 22 year old blonde bombshell with a modelling career but he's loyal to his wife because he loves her. That's admirable.

Cornette is in his late fifties, isn't a particularly good looking guy, isn't in shape and whilst being rich probably isn't rich enough to be able to shower a 20 something year old gold digger in money. Plus, I feel like a 20 year old wouldn't be into his personality. His wife is probably the best he can get these days.

The problem with the Cornette situation and his wife is their behaviour. If anyone was forced into having sex with Stacey Cornette then obviously that's really wrong and a massive issue. That's what I'm focused on. If he's just a cuck that let guys fuck his wife and it was all consensual then that's fine although I already feel uneasy about the unprompted nudes that the guy in question was sent.


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## Optikk is All Elite (Sep 5, 2007)

Pro wrestling really is a scummy industry huh. im actually not that surprised to be honest.


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## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

I think being in the AEW section maybe best to focus on Jimmy Havoc. Does he lose his job over this?


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## Wolf Mark (Jun 5, 2020)

Botchy SinCara said:


> This was seven years ago ...why is it a habit to wait almost a decade or more to speak out and then not have anything to back up those accusations ? And also always seem to be when someone gets more known


I have to admit to feel that it is particularly sadistic to come out with allegations out of nowhere after many years. I know that some stuff are painful to reveal too early but sometime I feel like people gets to join the mob and only reveal stuff cause others do it.


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## CM Buck (Sep 2, 2012)

Chip Chipperson said:


> I think being in the AEW section maybe best to focus on Jimmy Havoc. Does he lose his job over this?


I hope so. I used to be a fan and I keep hearing about this technical skill he has but that's all gone once he went hardcore.

I'm not a purist by any stretch of the imagination but there are guys who do hardcore much better than this guy. I was done with him after the mance warner feud


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## zkorejo (Jul 2, 2010)

She wanted to take a picture with him initially, rules out Brodie Lee. Cant be JR. Could be Dustin.

My money is on Jericho. Wasn't it reported that Kylie Rae left AEW because of her incident with Jericho too?


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## Jazminator (Jan 9, 2018)

optikk sucks said:


> Pro wrestling really is a scummy industry huh. im actually not that surprised to be honest.


Sexual predators are everywhere. Look what’s going on in Hollywood and the “Me, Too” movement. Look at our politicians and journalists and corporate executives - even our schools.

In my view, we shouldn’t let the actions of a few scummy people stain an entire industry.


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## Jazminator (Jan 9, 2018)

Chip Chipperson said:


> I think being in the AEW section maybe best to focus on Jimmy Havoc. Does he lose his job over this?


Only if the allegations are proven. If they aren’t, I would support him.


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## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

I read this one and I read the Jimmy Havoc one

IMO, the Jimmy one is nothing - a toxic relationship between 2 consenting adults / no physical abuse, no rape, no grooming - nothing like David Starr and some of the others. Sometimes couples are just bad to each other - move on

Whomever the guy in this original tweet is, can get fucked though, no matter who it is - there are criminal actions there and they should be charged


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## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

Chip Chipperson said:


> I didn't know about the Cornette story until this post. Imagine my surprise (Legitimate surprise) when I Googled Corny's name today.
> 
> Oh lawd Cornette, what have you done?


it was known mate - Janela dropped these hints a couple of times that he knows about Cornette's Pool boys - but it wasn't his place to speak out on who and what

this is kinda an old story

edit> oh fuck - ok, just read the whole story - i take this back, that is a lot worse than what was out there originally / and confirmed by others too - yeesh


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## Not Lying (Sep 9, 2013)

MontyCora said:


> Look Chip... There's frankly no way for me to say this without coming off like a sexist chauvinist pig, but I've got to get it out somewhere so why not here...
> 
> Cornette's wife is a fucking Hog. Seriously, he couldn't do better than a fucking 3? I heard the story from Lance and Jericho that his taste in women was... A low bar, but Jesus.


It makes his comments about Dana Brookes more insane.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1261734419288727556


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## Optikk is All Elite (Sep 5, 2007)

The Definition of Technician said:


> It makes his comments about Dana Brookes more insane.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1261734419288727556


This just proves Cornette is playing a gimmick on his podcast.


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## Wolf Mark (Jun 5, 2020)

The Definition of Technician said:


> It makes his comments about Dana Brookes more insane.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1261734419288727556


That just means he may know beauty but not the ability to obtain it?


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## MontyCora (Aug 31, 2016)

It would take Cornette 10 life times to land a Dana Brooke and even then he'd still never do it.


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## rbl85 (Nov 21, 2017)

I'm sorry but writing a tweet for me is not courageous.

The reason she didn't gave a name is because she have no proofs and i'm sorry i heard or read enough cases of woman lying about that type of things to blindly believe what they say.


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## Optikk is All Elite (Sep 5, 2007)

rbl85 said:


> I'm sorry but writing a tweet for me is not courageous.
> 
> The reason she didn't gave a name is because she have no proofs and i'm sorry i heard or read enough cases of woman lying about that type of things to blindly believe what they say.


A lot of wrestlers have apologised...

this AEW wrestler is probably scared shitless.

i believe it 🤷🏾‍♂️


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## rbl85 (Nov 21, 2017)

optikk sucks said:


> A lot of wrestlers have apologised...
> 
> this AEW wrestler is probably scared shitless.
> 
> i believe it 🤷🏾‍♂️


For the moment all i see is defamation.


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## Optikk is All Elite (Sep 5, 2007)

rbl85 said:


> For the moment all i see is defamation.


There is no defamation. The name has not been mentioned.


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## NahFam (Sep 12, 2016)

rbl85 said:


> For the moment all i see is defamation.


Yeah... I don't get this whole name and shame culture. If this is true, go to the fucking police and file a report. But they very rarely do? Post it online to allow vigilante and mob justice to take over instead and potentially ruin an innocent man. I guess I'm just a believer in innocent until proven guilty, and that any allegations made need to be challenged and cross examined in a court of law before they are taken at face value. This whole concept of always believe the victim is flawed, and does nothing to protect the rights of people that are only allegedly guilty of a crime. It's rather wrong. They are able to throw these allegations out with no real consequences, yet allegations can ruin a life even if they've never been found guilty of anything. Look at Enzo Amore, he was accused and he'd done nothing wrong.

I'm all for supporting victims, but posting shit on twitter just seems like attention seeking to me. Follow due process or fuck off.


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## yeahright2 (Feb 11, 2011)

Chip Chipperson said:


> I think being in the AEW section maybe best to focus on Jimmy Havoc. Does he lose his job over this?


But this about him isn´t news, is it? I could have sworn I read that somewhere before.. And IF I did (may be confusing it with the Teddy Hart incident), AEW should have taken action and investigated it then.


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## ProjectGargano (Apr 7, 2018)

NahFam said:


> Yeah... I don't get this whole name and shame culture. If this is true, go to the fucking police and file a report. But they very rarely do? Post it online to allow vigilante and mob justice to take over instead and potentially ruin an innocent man. I guess I'm just a believer in innocent until proven guilty, and that any allegations made need to be challenged and cross examined in a court of law before they are taken at face value. This whole concept of always believe the victim is flawed, and does nothing to protect the rights of people that are only allegedly guilty of a crime. It's rather wrong. They are able to throw these allegations out with no real consequences, yet allegations can ruin a life even if they've never been found guilty of anything. Look at Enzo Amore, he was accused and he'd done nothing wrong.
> 
> I'm all for supporting victims, but posting shit on twitter just seems like attention seeking to me. Follow due process or fuck off.


And not saying the name makes the people defame wrestlers that didn't make anything and see their name talked in this shit without doing anything.


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## NahFam (Sep 12, 2016)

ProjectGargano said:


> And not saying the name makes the people defame wrestlers that didn't make anything and see their name talked in this shit without doing anything.


Yep, trial by twitter is an abhorrent act.


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## LongPig666 (Mar 27, 2019)

Until this #SpeakingOut provides the burden of proof on their claims (they apparently have a list of 70 wrestlers) I wont take them seriously. They even accused the whole of the Independent British wrestling scene and NXT UK.


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## NahFam (Sep 12, 2016)

LongPig666 said:


> Until this #SpeakingOut provides the burden of proof on their claims (they apparently have a list of 70 wrestlers) I wont take them seriously. They even accused the whole of the Independent British wrestling scene and NXT UK.


I just find it embarassing, this concept of 'if you don't agree with us naming and shaming people on twitter without any proof you need to shut the fuck up and you're part of the problem' is hugely problematic. If the stories are true I believe that 99.9 percent of the world will support them and rightfully say the accused is an arsehole. I'd say you'd be hard pressed to find anybody who disagrees with the idea that sex offenders, nonces and other unsavoury characters should be dealt with. But the thing they're missing here is, without prosecution their words are backed up by nothing. The burden of proof in the UK is beyond all reasonable doubt in a court of law to be found guilty, which is why it makes me wonder if some of these stories are less than truthful. As a result, the default setting is I'll shame them on twitter instead until we all end up in a moral circlejerk and ruin the accused's career. It's so wrong and they can't even see it.


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## imthegame19 (Oct 12, 2008)

Chip Chipperson said:


> I think being in the AEW section maybe best to focus on Jimmy Havoc. Does he lose his job over this?


IMO Jimmy Havoc was probably on chopping block of people to get released a few months back. When you consider new talent coming available. Him teaming with Sabain and Penelope has gotten him on tv. But this now gives Tony Khan a reason to cut him. When before it would have been bad PR to cut people during Pandemic.


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## rbl85 (Nov 21, 2017)

imthegame19 said:


> IMO Jimmy Havoc was probably on chopping block of people to get released a few months back. When you consider new talent coming available. Him teaming with Sabain and Penelope has gotten him on tv. But this now gives Tony Khan a reason to cut him. When before it would have been bad PR to cut people during Pandemic.


For me there is no reason to cut him for that.....


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## RapShepard (Jun 20, 2014)

NahFam said:


> Yeah... I don't get this whole name and shame culture. If this is true, go to the fucking police and file a report. But they very rarely do? Post it online to allow vigilante and mob justice to take over instead and potentially ruin an innocent man. I guess I'm just a believer in innocent until proven guilty, and that any allegations made need to be challenged and cross examined in a court of law before they are taken at face value. This whole concept of always believe the victim is flawed, and does nothing to protect the rights of people that are only allegedly guilty of a crime. It's rather wrong. They are able to throw these allegations out with no real consequences, yet allegations can ruin a life even if they've never been found guilty of anything. Look at Enzo Amore, he was accused and he'd done nothing wrong.
> 
> I'm all for supporting victims, but posting shit on twitter just seems like attention seeking to me. Follow due process or fuck off.


Well when you see how the police actually handle sexual assault cases it makes sense folk don't go.


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## LongPig666 (Mar 27, 2019)

NahFam said:


> I just find it embarassing, this concept of 'if you don't agree with us naming and shaming people on twitter without any proof you need to shut the fuck up and you're part of the problem' is hugely problematic. If the stories are true I believe that 99.9 percent of the world will support them and rightfully say the accused is an arsehole. I'd say you'd be hard pressed to find anybody who disagrees with the idea that sex offenders, nonces and other unsavoury characters should be dealt with. But the thing they're missing here is, without prosecution their words are backed up by nothing. The burden of proof in the UK is beyond all reasonable doubt in a court of law to be found guilty, which is why it makes me wonder if some of these stories are less than truthful. As a result, the default setting is I'll shame them on twitter instead until we all end up in a moral circlejerk and ruin the accused's career. It's so wrong and they can't even see it.


Absolutely agree. Until you get the facts you get idiotic and tactical posts like;



Chip Chipperson said:


> I think being in the AEW section maybe best to focus on Jimmy Havoc. Does he lose his job over this?


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## NahFam (Sep 12, 2016)

RapShepard said:


> Well when you see how the police actually handle sexual assault cases it makes sense folk don't go.


I was a police officer in the UK for 6 years mate. I can't speak for the US but it's not the same in the UK. The police very much take it seriously in the UK, there are prosecutions of domestic abusers for instance even without the support of the victim. But being able to make accusations without repercussions is a dangerous precedent to set. I don't wish to live in a world where rule of law is overruled by vigilante justice. All evidence needs to be cross examined in a court of law to be robustly tested, and to give the accused a chance to defend him or herself.


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## rbl85 (Nov 21, 2017)

In France the wrestlers who were named by those women could easily file a complaint and they would win in court.


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## NahFam (Sep 12, 2016)

There are also campaigns championed by British police forces to increase the number of people coming forward regarding sexual offences such as project guardian in London. I'm not saying that these stories are untrue. Merely just that they have to go to the police about it, otherwise it helps nobody. Arseholes need to be prosecuted, not tarred and feathered on social media giving them an easy way out and a chance to claim victimhood when they've never been found guilty of it. Let them defend themselves in court, and if they're guilty treat them accordingly.


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## RapShepard (Jun 20, 2014)

NahFam said:


> I was a police officer in the UK for 6 years mate. I can't speak for the US but it's not the same in the UK. The police very much take it seriously in the UK, there are prosecutions of domestic abusers for instance even without the support of the victim. But being able to make accusations without repercussions is a dangerous precedent to set. I don't wish to live in a world where rule of law is overruled by vigilante justice. All evidence needs to be cross examined in a court of law to be robustly tested, and to give the accused a chance to defend him or herself.


Handled poorly is an understatement for how the States handle it lol. They barely even use rape kits and shit here. So at least here I get why folk would prefer a vigilante justice.


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## rbl85 (Nov 21, 2017)

RapShepard said:


> Handled poorly is an understatement for how the States handle it lol. They barely even use rape kits and shit here. So at least here I get why folk would prefer a vigilante justice.


Except that vigilante justice often leads to more injustice.


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## RapShepard (Jun 20, 2014)

rbl85 said:


> Except that vigilante justice often leads to more injustice.


Like? Because if you're talking those lied on of course that's not far. But what about the large amount of folk that do sexually assault folk and would've got away with it? 

I'm not saying this is the perfect way to go about it. But if you've been assaulted and feel the police are useless, surely you can see how someone would want vigilante justice.


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## rbl85 (Nov 21, 2017)

RapShepard said:


> Like? Because if you're talking those lied on of course that's not far. But what about the large amount of folk that do sexually assault folk and would've got away with it?
> 
> I'm not saying this is the perfect way to go about it. But if you've been assaulted and feel the police are useless, surely you can see how someone would want vigilante justice.


I can assure you that with a vigilante justice more innocent people will be in trouble.

By the way, the wrestlers who were named risk nothing here because there is no proof. It's the same as if one day somebody decide to tweet that Stephanie McMahon forced him to do certain things.


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## NahFam (Sep 12, 2016)

RapShepard said:


> Like? Because if you're talking those lied on of course that's not far. But what about the large amount of folk that do sexually assault folk and would've got away with it?
> 
> I'm not saying this is the perfect way to go about it. But if you've been assaulted and feel the police are useless, surely you can see how someone would want vigilante justice.


I don't think it's fair to live in a world where somebody can go on social media, and make a baseless accusation about you on twitter and be told how strong they are for doing it and also face no real ramifications for doing it. It solidifies a toxic culture that will over time reward people for attention seeking and lying, undermining genuine victims of crime for me.


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## RapShepard (Jun 20, 2014)

rbl85 said:


> I can assure you that with a vigilante justice more innocent people will be in trouble.
> 
> By the way, the wrestlers who were named risk nothing here because there is no proof. It's the same as if one day somebody decide to tweet that Stephanie McMahon forced him to do certain things.





NahFam said:


> I don't think it's fair to live in a world where somebody can go on social media, and make a baseless accusation about you on twitter and be told how strong they are for doing it and also face no real ramifications for doing it. It solidifies a toxic culture that will over time reward people for attention seeking and lying, undermining genuine victims of crime for me.


And again for those being lied on that truly is awful. I'm merely stating that someone not going to the police about it, isn't far-fetched.


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## NahFam (Sep 12, 2016)

RapShepard said:


> And again for those being lied on that truly is awful. I'm merely stating that someone not going to the police about it, isn't far-fetched.


I appreciate that, and it is a legitimate concern. Which is why people should be encouraged to come forward, but not posting about it on social media making any criminal prosecution that much harder.


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## rbl85 (Nov 21, 2017)

RapShepard said:


> And again for those being lied on that truly is awful. I'm merely stating that someone not going to the police about it, isn't far-fetched.


I agree with you on that.


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## Optikk is All Elite (Sep 5, 2007)

Guys. You have to realise that this sort of shit has happened before.

Ashley Massaro was abused. She spoke up and she was blackballed from wrestling. Nobody believed her. Her case was thrown out. She lost her job and then...well...no more needs to be said.

A lot of people are afraid of standing up for this sort of reason.

People talking about GoInG To ThE LaW. The law didn't believe Massaro.

It's best that this sot of abuse gets aired. The law hasn't helped before. These sorts of things happened years ago. There's no proof. HOWEVER, it will prevent these things from happening again, rather than getting ignored and brushed under the carpet.


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## RapShepard (Jun 20, 2014)

NahFam said:


> I appreciate that, and it is a legitimate concern. Which is why people should be encouraged to come forward, but not posting about it on social media making any criminal prosecution that much harder.


Yeah I agree. I think as far as here in the states, the justice system would have to show a renewed interest in actually properly handling sexual assault cases. Stuff like Brock Turner only doing 3 months in prison just makes it hard for victims to trust the system.


rbl85 said:


> I agree with you on that.


Glad we found some middle ground


----------



## NahFam (Sep 12, 2016)

optikk sucks said:


> Guys. You have to realise that this sort of shit has happened before.
> 
> Ashley Massaro was abused. She spoke up and she was blackballed from wrestling. Nobody believed her. Her case was thrown out. She lost her job and then...well...no more needs to be said.
> 
> ...


See this is the problem here, there's an implication that people who believe these things need to result in prosecutions are somehow stupid. I'm on their side, as are many people. 

As sad as the Ashley Massaro story is, did she ever actually go to the Police about it? I am and was appalled about what (allegedly) happened. But I don't recall ever reading that she went to the police about it, only that Vince and co told her to stop talking about it. I think people underestimate how seriously the police take these things to be honest and it's usually because people don't come forward. If people don't come forward, the police and prosecutors can't do shit.


----------



## NahFam (Sep 12, 2016)

Vince McMahon is a piece of shit, that I agree with though and I wouldn't be surprised if everything said about him in the Ashley Massaro accusations were true.


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## NahFam (Sep 12, 2016)

It also seems to me as though a lot of the accusations taking place on twitter currently are UK based. The police in the UK do not operate in the same way the US police are accused of being on here. Honestly, every single story posted on twitter would be taken seriously if reported to a UK force. There are protocols for reports of sexual assault/domestic violence, etc.


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## Optikk is All Elite (Sep 5, 2007)

NahFam said:


> See this is the problem here, there's an implication that people who believe these things need to result in prosecutions are somehow stupid. I'm on their side, as are many people.
> 
> As sad as the Ashley Massaro story is, did she ever actually go to the Police about it? I am and was appalled about what (allegedly) happened. But I don't recall ever reading that she went to the police about it, only that Vince and co told her to stop talking about it. I think people underestimate how seriously the police take these things to be honest and it's usually because people don't come forward. If people don't come forward, the police and prosecutors can't do shit.


It was part of her lawsuit. That got thrown out.

The law has a loooong way to go. You've got both sides - women who lie; then women who tell the truth and don't get believed because of a lack of evidence. It's a tough job to be part of the justice system. 

I'd rather lie on the side of the defendant, but I'm aware that there are a portion of lie. I don't think any lawsuits should come out of this, especially if there's no proof. However, if some of the accused come out, admit they did wrong, go to, idk, rehab. then I am fully up for 'forgiving them'.

Writing this stuff on social media is acceptable, at least for now. It must be very tough as a women who have been abused in this way, because they see stories like Ashley Massaro and worry for their careers and their lives. Shame. It should not be this way.


----------



## 304418 (Jul 2, 2014)

LongPig666 said:


> Until this #SpeakingOut provides the burden of proof on their claims (they apparently have a list of 70 wrestlers) I wont take them seriously. They even accused the whole of the Independent British wrestling scene and NXT UK.


I'd like to see that list.


----------



## Undertaker23RKO (Jun 11, 2011)

If true, I'd be absolutely shocked if it was Mox or Jericho. Any of these other names I could believe.


----------



## Brodus Clay (Jan 6, 2012)

Swagger.got arrested for dui on 2013 so he seems like the type to be bad at drinking.


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## rbl85 (Nov 21, 2017)

The situation with Riddle (go see the topic in "general WWE") make me think that we should be careful with those accusations.


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## elidrakefan76 (Jul 23, 2018)

I believe that it's Jericho or Moxley more than I believe than it would be Hager. Moxley especially seems like the type who would do something like that. We'll see, though.

Hager had a drunk driving arrest and also is/was into marijuana but he just doesn't seem like the type who would sexually assault a woman to me. He has always seemed very family-oriented whereas Moxley on the other hand, comes across as a loose cannon-type who you can imagine doing something like that.


----------



## EmbassyForever (Dec 29, 2011)

rbl85 said:


> The situation with Riddle (go see the topic in "general WWE") make me think that we should be careful with those accusations.


This


----------



## Jokerface17 (Feb 22, 2016)

Mox wasn’t married in 2013
Cody wasn’t married until after summer slam in 2013

So that leaves 
Brodie Lee
Jericho
Hager
JR
Dustin


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## RapShepard (Jun 20, 2014)

Well Jericho is known to be a heavy drinker and he had those accusations of cheating on his wife with Kelly Kelly Chris Jericho Fumbles On Twitter - Cheating On His Wife? - Wrestling Inc.


----------



## elidrakefan76 (Jul 23, 2018)

Jokerface17 said:


> Mox wasn’t married in 2013
> Cody wasn’t married until after summer slam in 2013
> 
> So that leaves
> ...


Well out of those names, Brodie Lee seems the most like the type who would do something like that followed by Dustin and Jericho in that order. The way that Dustin Rhodes forcefully kissed Jake Hager's wife at an AEW pay-per-view earlier this year against her will leads me to believe that it could very well be him.


----------



## RainmakerV2 (Nov 8, 2017)

RapShepard said:


> Well when you see how the police actually handle sexual assault cases it makes sense folk don't go.



Because they're hard to prove if you dont go report soon after it happened. Once the bruises, scarring, etc has healed, and any possible DNA is gone, im not sure what you would want someone to do other than just take your word for it.


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## rbl85 (Nov 21, 2017)

RainmakerV2 said:


> Because they're hard to prove if you dont go report soon after it happened. Once the bruises, scarring, etc has healed, Im not sure what you would want someone to do other than just take your word for it.


This.


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## elidrakefan76 (Jul 23, 2018)

I can understand why women would be afraid to come forward for awhile if they've really been sexually assaulted but to come forward 10 years after the fact to try to tarnish the reputation of someone famous is pathetic if you ask me. Now it will be hard for a lot of people to believe her.


----------



## Brodus Clay (Jan 6, 2012)

The thing it's that the girl says she didn't feel like a victim.... until 6 years passed (lol), kisses and grabbing aside when the drunk wrestler realized the girls didn't want to spend the night with him he left them, 

The girl didn't feel like a victim then so she didn't do a report,


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## Vitamin R (Jun 15, 2020)

Hopefully she says the name of the drunk predator. If not, AEW can't do anything about it and he will still be able to prey on women. Also, even though Nyx is clearly a Leftist wet dream, it's odd that she's a WWE mark. Despite the fact that Vince McMahon is a Republican who has also been accused of raping/molesting women. SJW double standards I guess.


----------



## RapShepard (Jun 20, 2014)

RainmakerV2 said:


> Because they're hard to prove if you dont go report soon after it happened. Once the bruises, scarring, etc has healed, and any possible DNA is gone, im not sure what you would want someone to do other than just take your word for it.


Yeah I get where you're coming from. But I think there's something to it when people say they feel ashamed and are afraid of not being believed. Idk it's just a hard thing to judge given the nature of said crimes.


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## rbl85 (Nov 21, 2017)

Vitamin R said:


> Hopefully she says the name of the drunk predator. If not, AEW can't do anything about it and he will still be able to prey on women. Also, even though Nyx is clearly a Leftist wet dream, it's odd that she's a WWE mark. Despite the fact that Vince McMahon is a Republican who has also been accused of raping/molesting women. SJW double standards I guess.


She have no proof, zero, nada, nothing.

It's the same as if i was saying that Stephanie tried to do something to me 10 years ago.....


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## elidrakefan76 (Jul 23, 2018)

Vitamin R said:


> Hopefully she says the name of the drunk predator. If not, AEW can't do anything about it and he will still be able to prey on women. Also, even though Nyx is clearly a Leftist wet dream, it's odd that she's a WWE mark. Despite the fact that Vince McMahon is a Republican who has also been accused of raping/molesting women. SJW double standards I guess.


It's sad that in this day and age, men have to be more careful than ever before when having sexual relations with women as your life can be ruined with even a false accusation that people believe to be true.


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## K4L318 (Nov 12, 2014)

if it was Chris she would say it, its Hager, and dat gotta be embarrassing.


----------



## Optikk is All Elite (Sep 5, 2007)

rbl85 said:


> She have no proof, zero, nada, nothing.
> 
> It's the same as if i was saying that Stephanie tried to do something to me 10 years ago.....


this no proof = innocent thing is BS and you know it.
And you didn't roll with Stephanie 10 years ago. It's not the same at all.


----------



## rbl85 (Nov 21, 2017)

optikk sucks said:


> this no proof = innocent thing is BS and you know it.
> *And you didn't roll with Stephanie 10 years ago. It's not the same at all.*


So let's say i was in the WWE and write a tweet saying "Stephanie did this and that to me ", what would you say "


----------



## NahFam (Sep 12, 2016)

optikk sucks said:


> I'd rather lie on the side of the defendant, but I'm aware that there are a portion of lie. I don't think any lawsuits should come out of this, especially if there's no proof. However, if some of the accused come out, admit they did wrong, go to, idk, rehab. then I am fully up for 'forgiving them'.


This is dangerous thinking. It's not for any of us to lie on either side. You're seeing one side of a story and allowing it to influence your opinion, which is very harmful. If these people have done something wrong, let the law deal with it and go to court and get it on public record. How would you feel if somebody accused you of something, completely baseless and nothing more than a story posted online? Would it be fair then. This is why due process is required. These accusations HAVE to be dealt with in court, nowhere else. Not in a public setting. The accused has to be given the opportunity to counter these points otherwise it comes across like a witch hunt.



> Writing this stuff on social media is acceptable, at least for now. It must be very tough as a women who have been abused in this way, because they see stories like Ashley Massaro and worry for their careers and their lives. Shame. It should not be this way.


I respectfully disagree, if these people are named without reporting this to the police, giving the defendant an opportunity to refute the claims under oath it's nothing more than a witch hunt for now. There are ways to deal with things like these, posting on social media isn't one of them. I thought people wanted justice? Which can only be achieved properly in court.



optikk sucks said:


> this no proof = innocent thing is BS and you know it.
> And you didn't roll with Stephanie 10 years ago. It's not the same at all.


The thing is though it's not really bullshit. Tarring and feathering on social media does nothing but give the accused an opportunity to claim to be a victim which is not what you want if he's actually done something wrong. It's not really justice is it? Leaving yourself open to libel/slander claims because of the fact they aren't reporting it to the police. Without prosecution these accusations are baseless as they haven't been tested in court meaning it's nothing more than hearsay for now.


----------



## Optikk is All Elite (Sep 5, 2007)

rbl85 said:


> So let's say i was in the WWE and write a tweet saying "Stephanie did this and that to me ", what would you say "


you've just told me.


----------



## Optikk is All Elite (Sep 5, 2007)

NahFam said:


> This is dangerous thinking. It's not for any of us to lie on either side. You're seeing one side of a story and allowing it to influence your opinion, which is very harmful. If these people have done something wrong, let the law deal with it and go to court and get it on public record. How would you feel if somebody accused you of something, completely baseless and nothing more than a story posted online? Would it be fair then. This is why due process is required. These accusations HAVE to be dealt with in court, nowhere else. Not in a public setting. The accused has to be given the opportunity to counter these points otherwise it comes across like a witch hunt.
> 
> I respectfully disagree, if these people are named without reporting this to the police, giving the defendant an opportunity to refute the claims under oath it's nothing more than a witch hunt for now. There are ways to deal with things like these, posting on social media isn't one of them. I thought people wanted justice? Which can only be achieved properly in court.
> 
> ...


the accused have social media as well and are free to post on twitter. and a few have apologised. so yeah, no smoke without fire as far as i'm concerned.

and btw, i've already said that none of these will convert to court cases. If it brings change to pro-wrestling, it's had a positive effect.


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## NahFam (Sep 12, 2016)

optikk sucks said:


> the accused have social media as well and are free to post on twitter. and a few have apologised. so yeah, no smoke without fire as far as i'm concerned.


This doesn't justify doing things publicly. If even one person is innocent then it's not a price worth paying. Doing it publicly is tabloid'esque shite. If they are guilty and they believe strongly enough in their stories, get the shitheads done and have it on public record. Don't give sex offenders a chance to just deny it.


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## Optikk is All Elite (Sep 5, 2007)

NahFam said:


> This doesn't justify doing things publicly. If even one person is innocent then it's not a price worth paying. Doing it publicly is tabloid'esque shite. If they are guilty and they believe strongly enough in their stories, get the shitheads done and have it on public record. Don't give sex offenders a chance to just deny it.


that's a good point as well. but remember that many of these sorts of lawsuits get thrown out. and people are fearful of losing their jobs/careers etc. ashley massaro is a good example of it. it's not easy to bring these things to the forefront. not saying it was the perfect way of doing it, but airing it on twitter makes it a relevant discussion. and at least it's a topic for discussion and hopefully change.


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## NahFam (Sep 12, 2016)

optikk sucks said:


> that's a good point as well. but remember that many of these sorts of lawsuits get thrown out. and people are fearful of losing their jobs/careers etc. ashley massaro is a good example of it. it's not easy to bring these things to the forefront. not saying it was the perfect way of doing it, but at least it's a topic for discussion and hopefully change.


But it's okay for folk that are accused to potentially lose their jobs too based on what at this stage are largely unfounded allegations? None of it is right. It has to be done properly, regardless of perception of injustice in the justice system. Given a lot of these accusations seem to be in the UK, I'm not sure a lot of the points about it getting thrown out are the same. The UK justice system doesn't work the same way.


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## NahFam (Sep 12, 2016)

I find it sad that people appear to be happy to let justice take place in a setting that doesn't afford the defendant the right to be seen as innocent until proven guilty. It's the cornerstone of our very society and it's being eroded at an alarming rate with the acceptance of these public shame trials on twitter.


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## Optikk is All Elite (Sep 5, 2007)

NahFam said:


> But it's okay for folk that are accused to potentially lose their jobs too based on what at this stage are largely unfounded allegations? None of it is right. It has to be done properly, regardless of perception of injustice in the justice system. Given a lot of these accusations seem to be in the UK, I'm not sure a lot of the points about it getting thrown out are the same. The UK justice system doesn't work the same way.


only 1 person has lost their position afaik? and he was one of the guys who apologised.


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## NahFam (Sep 12, 2016)

optikk sucks said:


> only 1 person has lost their position afaik? and he was one of the guys who apologised.


Isn't this largely the problem though? The ones who are a real problem are going to just deny it and it'll blow over eventually. If you let the police deal with it, the chances if they're guilty of cracking under the pressure of being under oath increases exponentially. I wanna see sex offenders and nonces and their ilk banged up and dragged through the courts to be honest. Not given the opportunity to just stay silent or deny it in a public setting. Doing it publicly gives them too easy a ride of it and a perceived victimhood they can hide behind.


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## rbl85 (Nov 21, 2017)

Some you don't understand that those wrestlers (the ones named) could easily file a complaint against those women for defamation and they would probably win.


----------



## Optikk is All Elite (Sep 5, 2007)

NahFam said:


> Isn't this largely the problem though? The ones who are a real problem are going to just deny it and it'll blow over eventually. If you let the police deal with it, the chances if they're guilty of cracking under the pressure of being under oath increases exponentially. I wanna see sex offenders and nonces and their ilk banged up and dragged through the courts to be honest. Not given the opportunity to just stay silent or deny it in a public setting. Doing it publicly gives them too easy a ride of it and a perceived victimhood they can hide behind.


but again, do you know the extent of how many cases go by like this? where women are afraid of going to the police or reporting it, for fear or losing their career/job etc?

Are you saying that you're OK for women to continue being treated like this? Ashley Massaro's suicide was less than a year ago.

We have NO idea because we are not on the inside. I agree with you all the way - sex offenders need to be banged up. But nothing was changing. This has probably been going on for decades. People are taking a stand now because they feel they have a voice. And good on them. Now with every future situation, the abused must go to the police straight away.


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## ObsoleteMule (Sep 4, 2016)

How do we convince victims that its ok to come forward earlier... it helps no one and makes their stories less credible when their stories cant be proven due to a lack of evidence. It puts everyone in a bad spot because you want to be sympathetic and their believe allegations, but at the same times the accused deserve the respect of being innocent until proven guilty.

When victims dont come forward you end up with a Larry Nassar situation. I believe this guy touched hundreds of young girls. This number wouldve significantly less had he been reported earlier. I’ve never been sexually assaulted so I guess i cant speak from their point of view, but coming forward can save so many others from suffering the same fate


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## NahFam (Sep 12, 2016)

optikk sucks said:


> but again, do you know the extent of how many cases go by like this? where women are afraid of going to the police or reporting it, for fear or losing their career/job etc?
> 
> Are you saying that you're OK for women to continue being treated like this? Ashley Massaro's suicide was less than a year ago.


Yeah, I'm fully aware of the extent. I worked on the London Underground as a bobby, where sexual offences are and were rife. I was part of a campaign targeting this very issue and encouraging women to come forward and tell the police. I understand women can be scared of coming forward for a number of reasons. I'm still not sure how that would justify publicly attacking people on social media where the accused isn't given a chance for rebuttal though under oath? I absolutely fucking hate sex offenders. They are the lowest of the low, that still doesn't change the fact that it's innocent until proven guilty though. We are not in a position to judge anybody, only courts are fit to do that.

And I'm not sure I've said I'm happy for women to be treated badly? I just don't agree with posting it all over social media rather than going to the people who can actually deal with it. Posting it on social media will do nothing, it's for show. A few people might get sacked, and what else? Nothing. People's names dragged through the mud, innocent or guilty. Women need to be encouraged to come forward and let the people who can deal with it, do their jobs and get genuine proper justice for people rather than token tar and feathering online.


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## Optikk is All Elite (Sep 5, 2007)

NahFam said:


> Yeah, I'm fully aware of the extent. I worked on the London Underground as a bobby, where sexual offences are and were rife. I was part of a campaign targeting this very issue and encouraging women to come forward and tell the police. I understand women can be scared of coming forward for a number of reasons. I'm still not sure how that would justify publicly attacking people on social media where the accused is given a chance for rebuttal though? I absolutely fucking hate sex offenders. They are the lowest of the low, that still doesn't change the fact that it's innocent until proven guilty though. We are not in a position to judge anybody, only courts are fit to do that.
> 
> And I'm not sure I've said I'm happy for women to be treated badly? I just don't agree with posting it all over social media rather than going to the people who can actually deal with it. Posting it on social media will do nothing, it's for show. A few people might get sacked, and what else? Nothing. People's names dragged through the mud, innocent or guilty. Women need to be encouraged to come forward and let the people who can deal with it, do their jobs and get genuine proper justice for people rather than token tar and feathering online.


and how do you encourage women to come forward, when, if these stories are real, abuse has been happening as recently as last year? like @ObsoleteMule has said, now these women have come forward on twitter and made it an important talking point, change can occur from within. It's activism in its newest form. Get used to it as far as i'm concerned. This is how change will happen.


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## NahFam (Sep 12, 2016)

optikk sucks said:


> and how do you encourage women to come forward, when, if these stories are real, abuse has been happening as recently as last year? like @ObsoleteMule has said, now these women have come forward on twitter and made it an important talking point, change can occur from within. It's activism in its newest form. Get used to it as far as i'm concerned. This is how change will happen.


You do it online funnily enough. Look up project guardian, it was hugely successful and sex offender detection rates went through the roof. More and more sex offenders got ID'd and banged up. 

What you don't do is post stories identifying and shaming individuals online though. That becomes a kangeroo court, nothing else. Innocent people get caught up in that. Raise awareness, keep shouting it loud from the roof tops until people hear you and continue to fight the good fight. And you do it in conjunction with the authorities. Posting individual stories, naming individuals almost all but guarantees the chances of prosecution are zero given they can argue they won't get a fair trial. Honestly, there are better ways to do it.


----------



## NahFam (Sep 12, 2016)

I hope none of you ever get accused of wrongdoing on a public platform too by the way and are not given the chance to defend your reputation. There's a reason things are and should be dealt with in criminal courts.

How many innocent people is a price worth paying for this change?


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## Optikk is All Elite (Sep 5, 2007)

NahFam said:


> You do it online funnily enough. Look up project guardian, it was hugely successful and sex offender detection rates went through the roof. More and more sex offenders got ID'd and banged up.
> 
> What you don't do is post stories identifying and shaming individuals online though. That becomes a kangeroo court, nothing else. Innocent people get caught up in that. Raise awareness, keep shouting it loud from the roof tops until people hear you and continue to fight the good fight. And you do it in conjunction with the authorities. Posting individual stories, naming individuals almost all but guarantees the chances of prosecution are zero given they can argue they won't get a fair trial. Honestly, there are better ways to do it.


but how do you change it within a particular industry
you are talking about public transport


----------



## NahFam (Sep 12, 2016)

optikk sucks said:


> but how do you change it within a particular industry
> you are talking about public transport


Is it any different? You campaign and raise awareness online and raise the issue through national media. You get the police involved, any authority that is responsible for it. You unionise, you don't see that in America though as they're all independent contractors (no wonder it's so rife in an industry where nobody has the wrestlers back as a collective). I really am flabbergasted anybody thinks that posting about it on social media will change anything. Do you think any actual sex offender will care? They'll carry on. Sure, you might get a few people that were acting a little out of character and feel bad and shame them into remorse, but genuine sex offenders will not care. It's not going to achieve anything without going to the police. You achieve change through getting offenders dragged through court and blacklisted as a result of being found guilty.

You don't achieve change by shaming individuals and all but guaranteeing they won't be prosecuted as a result.


----------



## SZilla25 (Sep 1, 2016)

elidrakefan76 said:


> Well out of those names, Brodie Lee seems the most like the type who would do something like that followed by Dustin and Jericho in that order. The way that Dustin Rhodes forcefully kissed Jake Hager's wife at an AEW pay-per-view earlier this year against her will leads me to believe that it could very well be him.


Are you basing your assumptions off of actions that wrestlers do in character?


----------



## Optikk is All Elite (Sep 5, 2007)

NahFam said:


> Is it any different? You campaign and raise awareness online and raise the issue through national media. You get the police involved, any authority that is responsible for it. You unionise, you don't see that in America though as they're all independent contractors (no wonder it's so rife in an industry where nobody has the wrestlers back as a collective). I really am flabbergasted anybody thinks that posting about it on social media will change anything. Do you think any actual sex offender will care? They'll carry on. Sure, you might get a few people that were acting a little out of character and feel bad and shame them into remorse, but genuine sex offenders will not care. It's not going to achieve anything without going to the police. You achieve change through getting offenders dragged through court and blacklisted as a result of being found guilty.


social media has allowed change to start happening via BLM. The LA riots back in the 90s changed fuck all. if we didn't have social media, BLM would be nothing.
social media is why we have an anti vaccine movement.
social media is why people still think it's ok to be overtly racist -its given a voice to all the wrong people, from katie hopkins to fuckin EDL
social media has impacted on our society a LOT.

you gotta realise the new form of activism is here to stay. social media has its good and its bad points, but it has impacted on our society in more ways than just 1


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## NahFam (Sep 12, 2016)

optikk sucks said:


> social media has allowed change to start happening via BLM. The LA riots back in the 90s changed fuck all. if we didn't have social media, BLM would be nothing.
> social media is why we have an anti vaccine movement.
> social media is why people think it's ok to be racist.
> social media has impacted on our society a LOT. i


Don't take this the wrong way but you haven't really addressed any of my points mate.


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## Optikk is All Elite (Sep 5, 2007)

NahFam said:


> Don't take this the wrong way but you haven't really addressed any of my points mate.


you said social media won't change anything. i've just told you many ways which it already has changed things.

t#metoo movement has resulted in a lot of change. change that wouldn't have happened without social media.


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## ProjectGargano (Apr 7, 2018)

This shit called Cancel Culture without proves is so disgusting...Twitter is só fvcking toxic...


----------



## NahFam (Sep 12, 2016)

optikk sucks said:


> social media has allowed change to start happening via BLM. The LA riots back in the 90s changed fuck all. if we didn't have social media, BLM would be nothing.
> social media is why we have an anti vaccine movement.
> social media is why people still think it's ok to be overtly racist -its given a voice to all the wrong people, from katie hopkins to fuckin EDL
> social media has impacted on our society a LOT.
> ...


And how has the black lives matter achieved things online? By getting the authorities involved and putting pressure on them to do something about it. Something which these kangeroo courts online will not do. Again though, this is more of a US thing, not a UK thing. I'd argue the BLM movement has achieved fuck all in the UK, given the issues are predominantly a US issue, not a British one. In the UK the issues that BLM have raised have for the most part been non issues. Complaining about stop and search, the death of individuals like Mark Duggan and police brutality etc as though it's remotely comparable to what's going on in the US. Social media has a tendency to portray things different to how they are in reality.

The US BLM movement therefore cannot be compared to this speaking out movement currently. There's no real desire to have these people prosecuted from what I've seen. It's all post stories naming and shaming individuals currently without due process.

Social media has brought some important things to the surface, such as BLM and the MeToo movement. No question from me. But it's also an inflammatory environment encouraging group think rather than individual critical thinking. That goes for the left and right. I'm just not a believer in mob justice really. I feel it can do more harm than good, when the same end point can be achieved without the more extreme elements you see. How many innocent people had their reputation ruined by bandwagon jumpers to the MeToo movement? Johnny Depp the first one that comes to mind. I don't consider it to be a price worth paying.


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## NahFam (Sep 12, 2016)

The other key difference between the US BLM movement and the speaking out movement is also, and this is a key point. EVIDENCE. We witnessed George Floyd get murdered. There is no denying what happened. Not sure anybody can argue the situation is remotely comparable currently given people are posting stories of one side currently with no proof.


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## Optikk is All Elite (Sep 5, 2007)

NahFam said:


> And how has the black lives matter achieved things online?


The videos of police brutality spread on social media. If you look at the numbers of similar situations, they have shot up after the invention of social media.


> In the UK the issues that BLM have raised have for the most part *been non issues*. Complaining about stop and search, the death of individuals like Mark Duggan and police brutality etc as though it's remotely comparable to what's going on in the US. Social media has a tendency to portray things different to how they are in reality.











I disagree with you there.


> Social media has brought some important things to the surface, such as BLM and the MeToo movement. No question from me. But it's also an inflammatory environment encouraging group think rather than individual critical thinking. That goes for the left and right. I'm just not a believer in mob justice really. I feel it can do more harm than good, when the same end point can be achieved without the more extreme elements you see. How many innocent people had their reputation ruined by bandwagon jumpers to the MeToo movement? Johnny Depp the first one that comes to mind. I don't consider it to be a price worth paying.


i don't disagree with you about social media being toxic.

we are on the same side. you obviously believe in the law, whereas i don't believe they have achieved 100% of their aims. the law still has a lot of issues. We are seeing cases where the law is on the wrong side of the law.

Women have been scared to stand up to their abusers. That is still a very evident problem in society.


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## rbl85 (Nov 21, 2017)

Guys this have nothing to do with the topic.


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## NahFam (Sep 12, 2016)

I'm gonna head out now @optikk sucks as I've been on here most of the evening haha. Good talking to you though! Have a good evening mate. We are definitely on the same side, just not quite in agreement with how it should be achieved.


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## Optikk is All Elite (Sep 5, 2007)

NahFam said:


> I'm gonna head out now @optikk sucks as I've been on here most of the evening haha. Good talking to you though! Have a good evening mate. We are definitely on the same side, just not quite in agreement with how it should be achieved.


It's always good to have these sorts of discussions bro. I'm glad we could have it.


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## lesenfanteribles (Nov 23, 2004)

Disturbing day for wrestling, if these allegations are proven to be true then that's a lot of people... 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

The only way it could go really.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1274114435867697157
seems like they are doing their due diligence and not knee-jerking anything


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## rbl85 (Nov 21, 2017)

Havoc was/is doing a lot of drug and alcohol isn't he ?


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## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

Jazminator said:


> Why doesn’t she just come out and name him?


I don't blame her for that. People get a lot of shit for naming names. And, as fucked as it is if they keep getting away with shit, I can see her perceived "nobility" in not dobbing the person in. She's just telling her story to encourage others to do the same.


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## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

rbl85 said:


> Havoc was/is doing a lot of drug and alcohol isn't he ?


yah, guy loves the drink it seems

what led to his altercation with excalibur


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## rbl85 (Nov 21, 2017)

LifeInCattleClass said:


> yah, guy loves the drink it seems
> 
> what led to his altercation with excalibur


Drugs and alcohol can make you do terrible things.


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## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

rbl85 said:


> Drugs and alcohol can make you do terrible things.


They can be absolutely horrible at helping break down barriers you would normally have, and addiction is a series illness, but you've got to treat it and can't continuously distance yourself from the effects you cause under its influence.


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## dan the marino (Oct 22, 2006)

SZilla25 said:


> Are you basing your assumptions off of actions that wrestlers do in character?


Yup and reading the armchair detectives even just glancing through this thread let alone a shitstain like what I'm sure the reddit one is, is embarassing. If it was 2013 there could even be a missed detail as simple as something as she didn't realize he got married soon after and is misremembering. I'm not saying it didn't happen but crucifying names because morons on the internet did a pre-K level detective digging and came up with tossing around names like Hager/JR/and Havoc is ridiculous. 

Honestly that retweet or whatever it was (I don't have a twitter because it is balls but she liked a tweet with names or something) that doesn't mention Hager or Havoc is the most confirmation she gave past her story, whether it's true or not and unfortunately will probably never be proven either way at this point. And if you follow that well it clearly isn't JR so that leaves 3 names, and you'll have internet heroes accusing people because of actions say Goldust did in character (you know who you are, and you're a moron) or any other reason and we'll never know if she won't name them which probably won't happen. There's a lot of assholes in wrestling and in the world in general, it's not unbelievable that this happened awful as it may have been and we'll likely never get the full story so near-baseless speculation is useless and ridiculous.

Edit - Well just saw the news about Havoc so it does seem they think it is him.


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## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

optikk sucks said:


> Guys. You have to realise that this sort of shit has happened before.
> 
> Ashley Massaro was abused. She spoke up and she was blackballed from wrestling. Nobody believed her. Her case was thrown out. She lost her job and then...well...no more needs to be said.
> 
> ...


I read her court documents a few months back but if I recall correctly she never actually went to the law because she felt it'd be pointless. The incident happened in the middle east in a military zone so it's not as simple as just rocking up to the Police station and reporting it.

I do believe she reported it to people at WWE who either didn't believe her or didn't care which is horrible.



elidrakefan76 said:


> It's sad that in this day and age, men have to be more careful than ever before when having sexual relations with women as your life can be ruined with even a false accusation that people believe to be true.


Yeah, there was a rugby player here who met a woman at a club, took her back to the house and had sex with her. She thought it was going to be a relationship, he only wanted sex so when he left and never talked to her again she decided to accuse him of rape publicly. He got awfully close to going to prison but the woman's sister came forward and said the morning after the alleged rape nothing was wrong and the woman even cooked breakfast for him. That was enough to get him away from any legal trouble but due to how long the case took (Just over a year I believe) he lost his promising football career and last time I heard anything about him he was playing locally in a hobby league.

A lot of cases are genuine but I've seen women claiming they've been sexually assaulted or harassed when in reality it's a drunk guy being an idiot on a Saturday night and simply making dumb comments or touching a woman's shoulder. Hell, many women claim it's a rape if they regret the sex later on or if a man and a woman have a drunken romp together.

Australian wrestler Shazza McKenzie who has been quite vocal in regards to all of this claimed an Australian legend in Mario Milano groped her in a crowded lockeroom when she was a rookie wrestler. She made these claims 2 years ago and many people called her out on lying about it but nobody really ever backed her up and said that it did indeed happen despite multiple witnesses being on hand to back her up if it was true. I'm not suggesting Shazza is lying but not one person came to her aid and said it happened when people were accusing her of lying which seems weird.


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## CMPunkRock316 (Jan 17, 2016)

We have to be really careful with these false claims whether it was yesterday, 7 years ago or 35 years ago. We saw it with Enzo and we saw it with Brett Kavanaugh just baseless bullshit. It sucks because I know people very close to me who have been sexually assaulted and this kind of shit especially with Trial-by-Twitter does it no favors. Today anyone can claim anything happened and we are supposed to believe them.


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## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

There’s a line go find between treating alleged victims with respect and dignity and not creating a courtroom of public opinion that is easily hijacked by those who would exploit it.

It’s tricky, because justice lies with the truth, and the truth can often be uncomfortable, difficult and may not ever have a true advocate.


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## MontyCora (Aug 31, 2016)

CMPunkRock316 said:


> We have to be really careful with these false claims whether it was yesterday, 7 years ago or 35 years ago. We saw it with Enzo and we saw it with Brett Kavanaugh just baseless bullshit. It sucks because I know people very close to me who have been sexually assaulted and this kind of shit especially with Trial-by-Twitter does it no favors. Today anyone can claim anything happened and we are supposed to believe them.


I mean, the situation with Kavanaugh is that his character was not a great fit for the highest legal position in the world. That was the legal premise and the greater context of the situation. He more or less proved that in a global job interview. I don't like comparing that situation to this one. Brett was never on trial for attempted rape no matter how much people would like you to believe that's what was being done to him. Neither are presumably any of these people being accused of bad behavior pending proof found in Discovery.


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## Aedubya (Jul 12, 2019)

NahFam said:


> And how has the black lives matter achieved things online? By getting the authorities involved and putting pressure on them to do something about it. Something which these kangeroo courts online will not do. Again though, this is more of a US thing, not a UK thing. I'd argue the BLM movement has achieved fuck all in the UK, given the issues are predominantly a US issue, not a British one. In the UK the issues that BLM have raised have for the most part been non issues. Complaining about stop and search, the death of individuals like Mark Duggan and police brutality etc as though it's remotely comparable to what's going on in the US. Social media has a tendency to portray things different to how they are in reality.
> 
> The US BLM movement therefore cannot be compared to this speaking out movement currently. There's no real desire to have these people prosecuted from what I've seen. It's all post stories naming and shaming individuals currently without due process.
> 
> Social media has brought some important things to the surface, such as BLM and the MeToo movement. No question from me. But it's also an inflammatory environment encouraging group think rather than individual critical thinking. That goes for the left and right. I'm just not a believer in mob justice really. I feel it can do more harm than good, when the same end point can be achieved without the more extreme elements you see. How many innocent people had their reputation ruined by bandwagon jumpers to the MeToo movement? Johnny Depp the first one that comes to mind. I don't consider it to be a price worth paying.


Don't listen to this guy
England is a racist hole and the BLM is highlighting it
More demonstrations today


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## rbl85 (Nov 21, 2017)

Aedubya said:


> Don't listen to this guy
> England is a racist hole and the BLM is highlighting it
> More demonstrations today


Yeah sure XD


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## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

Aedubya said:


> Don't listen to this guy
> England is a racist hole and the BLM is highlighting it
> More demonstrations today


England is very far from a racist hole

take it from a south african who has travelled the world

there are very few reasons for protests here / if any


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## Dark Emperor (Jul 31, 2007)

LifeInCattleClass said:


> England is very far from a racist hole
> 
> take it from a south african who has travelled the world
> 
> there are very few reasons for protests here / if any


It's actually pretty crazy to me when people say stuff like England is a racist hellhole.

Which country are they comparing it to? Because i can't think of more than 3 countries worldwide where i think is less racist and more accepting in terms of all the different cultures settled here than UK. I'd like these people to name better countries.

You may get the individual racists, or stopped and search through profiling like with most places. But in terms of actual racism causing a significant discriminatory advantage to your life, i just don't see it. There are so many laws and rules in place to stop these things happening.

Some people legit use racism as an excuse for not making it where they want to be in life. I am black and traveled over 25 countries where i have seen and experienced proper institutional racism.


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## NahFam (Sep 12, 2016)

Aedubya said:


> Don't listen to this guy
> England is a racist hole and the BLM is highlighting it
> More demonstrations today


This should be interesting. What makes you think that it's a racist hole? What specific issues? I think people really don't appreciate how good they have it in the UK compared to the rest of the world. I'm not saying there aren't elements of racism, because of course there are. But this country is far more tolerant than you give it credit for.


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## Optikk is All Elite (Sep 5, 2007)

NahFam said:


> This should be interesting. What makes you think that it's a racist hole? What specific issues? I think people really don't appreciate how good they have it in the UK compared to the rest of the world. I'm not saying there aren't elements of racism, because of course there are. But this country is far more tolerant than you give it credit for.


We are very tolerant but you only need to look at the inequalities between BAME and the white majority. Those inequalities are only getting worse. I mean corona virus is just the best example of this. 

Don’t forget that the government only recently tried to deport those from the Windrush generation. And it took months for a lawyer to find the original law that gave them permanent visa status. That law was buried in books.

Institutional racism is still abundant in this country. It’s changing for sure.
brexit was voted by the majority cus of EU iMmIgRaTiOn. “Let’s bring Britain back to the 70s when there were barely any BAME”


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## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

optikk sucks said:


> We are very tolerant but you only need to look at the inequalities between BAME and the white majority. Those inequalities are only getting worse. I mean corona virus is just the best example of this.
> 
> Don’t forget that the government only recently tried to deport those from the Windrush generation. And it took months for a lawyer to find the original law that gave them permanent visa status. That law was buried in books.
> 
> ...


yah, but Brexit is more about xenophobia

toh-mah-toe, to-mah-toh maybe to some degree / but it is not a black / white thing

its maybe even a white / white thing as it has a lot to do with Polish, Romanian et all


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## Optikk is All Elite (Sep 5, 2007)

LifeInCattleClass said:


> yah, but Brexit is more about xenophobia
> 
> toh-mah-toe, to-mah-toh maybe to some degree / but it is not a black / white thing
> 
> its maybe even a white / white thing as it has a lot to do with Polish, Romanian et all


Yeah you’re right about this.
The funny thing is UK has more immigration from India alone than all of Europe combined. I wonder if those who voted for brexit are willing to pick fruits and veg over the Summer. Wait, Brodie had to beg people to come from European countries to do that for us during this pandemic.


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## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

optikk sucks said:


> Yeah you’re right about this.
> The funny thing is UK has more immigration from India alone than all of Europe combined. I wonder if those who voted for brexit are willing to pick fruits and veg over the Summer. Wait, Brodie had to beg people to come from European countries to do that for us during this pandemic.


Yeah - they have little forethought for what Brexit truly means

it means, get a brit to sweep the streets and get a brit to work in the sewer

skinny half decaf latte? Get a Brit?

To be fair - all this makes it easier for people from other countries now - when I apply for work, I am seen as equal to all EU citizens

before this, I had to compete with British nationals and EU nationals before I could get a work visa - so, I am not complaining

but the whole thing is very short-sighted


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## RiverFenix (Dec 10, 2011)

Havok was mentally abusive, but seems he only self-harmed himself physically. It sounds like a very toxic relationship they were in but I don't think that is a fireable offense. He didn't harm or physically abuse her, didn't sexually assault her. They were together for three years. He didn't have power over her in a teacher/student kind of way, and wasn't making money on the indies to have financial control over her. I hope that he gets the help he needs - he has some real demons.

The account against him seems to paint him as mentally ill than fitting with the other accusations. His accuser even states Jimmy Havoc " only knows violence and anger in love.” He had a really rough childhood which is something she used while defending him to her friends. There were cutting and punching himself in the head, punching walls and also incidents of risky behavior like driving fast when he was angry.


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## rbl85 (Nov 21, 2017)

DetroitRiverPhx said:


> Havok was mentally abusive, but seems he only self-harmed himself physically. It sounds like a very toxic relationship they were in but I don't think that is a fireable offense. He didn't harm or physically abuse her, didn't sexually assault her. They were together for three years. He didn't have power over her in a teacher/student kind of way, and wasn't making money on the indies to have financial control over her. I hope that he gets the help he needs - he has some real demons.
> 
> The account against him seems to paint him as mentally ill than fitting with the other accusations. His accuser even states Jimmy Havoc " only knows violence and anger in love.” He had a really rough childhood which is something she used while defending him to her friends. There were cutting and punching himself in the head, punching walls and also incidents of risky behavior like driving fast when he was angry.


Well he apparently also rape a girl.


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## RiverFenix (Dec 10, 2011)

rbl85 said:


> Well he apparently also rape a girl.


I haven't seen that accusation. I just caught a report on from an ex-GF and about how he punched a fan in the face who approached him after a show in a bar.


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## rbl85 (Nov 21, 2017)

DetroitRiverPhx said:


> I haven't seen that accusation. I just caught a report on from an ex-GF and about how he punched a fan in the face who approached him after a show in a bar.


I don't remember exactly but he apparently raped or forced himself on girl one night and the next morning he was hitting his head on a wall (probably because of what he did the night before)


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## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

rbl85 said:


> I don't remember exactly but he apparently raped or forced himself on girl one night and the next morning he was hitting his head on a wall (probably because of what he did the night before)


what happened was, his girlfriend who gave the original ‘toxic relationship’ story, also released an anonymous story of a supposed rape she received from somebody in her DMs - not confirmed anywhere else.

am i the only one seeing a massive red flag here?


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## rbl85 (Nov 21, 2017)

LifeInCattleClass said:


> what happened was, his girlfriend who gave the original ‘toxic relationship’ story, also released an anonymous story of a supposed rape she received from somebody in her DMs - not confirmed anywhere else.
> 
> am i the only one seeing a massive red flag here?


That's why i used the "apparently"


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## theboxingfan (Nov 15, 2013)

Chip Chipperson said:


> Tony Khan and some of the people on this forum are cool with sexual assault though. I remember like a 10 page argument where many people argued that booking Mike Tyson was fine despite being a convicted rapist.


Out of curiosity do you think Mike Tyson committed the rape he was convicted of?


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## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

theboxingfan said:


> Out of curiosity do you think Mike Tyson committed the rape he was convicted of?


Yeah, after the evidence I read I do think that.


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## theboxingfan (Nov 15, 2013)

Chip Chipperson said:


> Yeah, after the evidence I read I do think that.


There were 3 witnesses who saw Tyson and Washington kissing in Tyson's limousine. On the way to the hotel at 2am that weren't allowed to testify. 

Also there was no bruises found anywhere on her body that contradicted her story. 

To each their own but I don't believe he was guilty. Sometimes a conviction doesn't mean the jury were right. Same with an acquittal. See the OJ Simpson case.


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## CtrlAltDel (Aug 9, 2016)

theboxingfan said:


> There were 3 witnesses who saw Tyson and Washington kissing in Tyson's limousine. On the way to the hotel at 2am that weren't allowed to testify.
> 
> Also there was no bruises found anywhere on her body that contradicted her story.
> 
> To each their own but I don't believe he was guilty. Sometimes a conviction doesn't mean the jury were right. Same with an acquittal. See the OJ Simpson case.


Kobe Bryant had to deal with this issue too. It went to court and and he was found not guilty. But his reputation took a big hit 15 years ago.


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## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

Kissing a guy doesn’t mean you agreed to have sex with him. Introducing that would probably prejudice a jury, especially if it consisted of men who think that a woman kissing them means their body is theirs for business.

And yes, if Mike Tyson tried to rape me, the first thing I am going to do is struggle. Fuck’s sake.


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## The Masked Avenger (Apr 18, 2018)

Not gonna lie, my fandom has taken a massive hit with all these accusations. Not to make light of some of the real terrible things that some of these people did but the fact that these hashtag movements quick turn into witch-hunts. As for AEW talent, I think Havoc is a shitty boyfriend with emotional issues. I don't believe for a second the "someone DMed me that he raped her" story. For Sammy, he did one of the cardinal sins. He made a joke about one of the top women that fans go to that extra step of crazy for. Make fun of Sasha, Alexa or Becky and their huge psycho fanbases will come back at full force. Just look at the guy that tries and fails to come back at Jericho about the rating on Twitter in the Ratings thread. Someone had no better use of there time then to search for something against Sammy for his Ricochet joke about Sasha. Someone found some random podcast interview probably listened to by a few hundred people 5 years ago. The dude still had a day job at this time that's how long ago it was.


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## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

The Masked Avenger said:


> Not gonna lie, my fandom has taken a massive hit with all these accusations. Not to make light of some of the real terrible things that some of these people did but the fact that these hashtag movements quick turn into witch-hunts. As for AEW talent, I think Havoc is a shitty boyfriend with emotional issues. I don't believe for a second the "someone DMed me that he raped her" story. For Sammy, he did one of the cardinal sins. He made a joke about one of the top women that fans go to that extra step of crazy for. Make fun of Sasha, Alexa or Becky and their huge psycho fanbases will come back at full force. Just look at the guy that tries and fails to come back at Jericho about the rating on Twitter in the Ratings thread. Someone had no better use of there time then to search for something against Sammy for his Ricochet joke about Sasha. Someone found some random podcast interview probably listened to by a few hundred people 5 years ago. The dude still had a day job at this time that's how long ago it was.


I agree with your point about witch-hunts but if it makes you feel better most of the things being thrown around aren't entirely true. Jim Cornette for example was accused of this when he had done nothing wrong and his accuser couldn't even get a proper timeline together.

Sammy will also be fine, Jimmy Havoc will be fine. The only known American wrestler who seems to be "cancelled" out of all of this would be Joey Ryan which sucks for him but when you have like 10 women coming out calling you abusive that's the ball game.

Quite a few UK wrestlers are cancelled also and a promotion here in Australia has gone down after screenshots of the promoter trying to proposition a rookie female wrestler came out. He lost his tag team champions, a few main event stars and his top draws all in one big swoop.


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## rbl85 (Nov 21, 2017)

The Masked Avenger said:


> Not gonna lie, my fandom has taken a massive hit with all these accusations. Not to make light of some of the real terrible things that some of these people did but the fact that these hashtag movements quick turn into witch-hunts. As for AEW talent, I think Havoc is a shitty boyfriend with emotional issues. I don't believe for a second the "someone DMed me that he raped her" story. For Sammy, he did one of the cardinal sins. He made a joke about one of the top women that fans go to that extra step of crazy for. Make fun of Sasha, Alexa or Becky and their huge psycho fanbases will come back at full force. Just look at the guy that tries and fails to come back at Jericho about the rating on Twitter in the Ratings thread. Someone had no better use of there time then to search for something against Sammy for his Ricochet joke about Sasha. *Someone found some random podcast interview probably listened to by a few hundred people 5 years ago*. The dude still had a day job at this time that's how long ago it was.


I already knew that he said that even before all this mess.


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## shadow_spinner (Dec 6, 2019)

ObsoleteMule said:


> How do we convince victims that its ok to come forward earlier... it helps no one and makes their stories less credible when their stories cant be proven due to a lack of evidence. It puts everyone in a bad spot because you want to be sympathetic and their believe allegations, but at the same times the accused deserve the respect of being innocent until proven guilty.
> 
> When victims dont come forward you end up with a Larry Nassar situation. I believe this guy touched hundreds of young girls. This number wouldve significantly less had he been reported earlier. I’ve never been sexually assaulted so I guess i cant speak from their point of view, but coming forward can save so many others from suffering the same fate


IIRC the case said he was reported much earlier, even in the 90's but it kept being covered up somehow.


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## Mister Sinister (Aug 7, 2013)

Clearly Nyla Rose.


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