# Has Kenny Omega's Star Aura Diminished?



## BuffbeenStuffed (Nov 20, 2012)

So remember about three years ago or maybe a bit before that when Kenny Omega had the task of following after AJ Styles as the leader of The Bullet Club? The promos , the look and matches evolved. He had become a super hot commodity in Japan to the point that rumours about him joining WWE made his name even hotter. Remember when he won the IWGP title and it catapulted even more so? When he lost the title at Wrestle Kingdom those WWE rumours began to circulate and it felt like this man was wrestler with the most momentum out of everyone and that could elevate him to a higher level? When the announcement of AEW was made that was big news, when Kenny signed it felt like a big deal. But as time has gone by is it me but has his momentum stalled.

Ask yourself why? Is it because he is losing and looking far more vulnerable than he should? The theory tied in with this is that they do not want to be accused of using the booking to suit them with the fan's knowing that they are in executive positions. I understand that and can certainly see why.

But having watched AEW and I get the feeling that Jericho/Omega 3 is possible which means a chase towards the title keeping him away at first is needed, but in doing so he has really cooled down. He lost to jericho and then Lost to Pac , then lost to Moxley in a strange match and even got bounced around by the Dark Order.

I wonder if I am alone on this? But now upon further reflection it feels like Gedo knew how to play Kenny's strengths and booked him in a way that kept him hot. 

I can say even more, but I want to know what everyone else thinks?


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## Ratedr4life (Dec 18, 2008)

If there mentality is they don't want to book him in a position where it looks like he is using his position in the company, then that's just stupid. AEW's brand was essentially built around him, Cody and the Bucks and their popularity, why not take advantage of that.

I'm hoping once Moxley takes the title off Jericho, we get Jericho/Omega III with Omega going onto continue his feud with Moxley.


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## reyfan (May 23, 2011)

I never saw his work before AEW but in AEW he looks like a mid-carder.


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## Bloody Warpath (Jan 6, 2020)

Outside of the hardcore wrestling fanbase, not many others actually knew who Omega was. Ever since AEW was created, none of what made Omega feel special in Japan has carried over to here. Many knew fans just seeing him for the first time really have not had much reason to see him any differently than who does a few good moves during a match.


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## imthegame19 (Oct 12, 2008)

Once they decide to give him title push like they are giving Moxley now. He will look like a star again. Hes taking a backseat because he knows putting over Jericho, Moxley and teaming with Page. 


Will help Jericho and Moxley look like bigger stars then they were last few years of WWE run. While its giving Page time to show off his personality. Omega is confident in himself. That he knows when it's his time for push for the title. He can make himself look like a big deal again.


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## Benoit's Weight Machine (Dec 28, 2019)

BuffbeenStuffed said:


> get the feeling that Jericho/Omega 3 is possible


I don't have an answer as to why he's diminished but this pretty much sums it up. Jericho vs Omega 3 does not feel like a big time match and does not feel as if it could believably main event a PPV. This was definitely not the feeling at double or nothing where the match felt big time. 

Kenny has been booked horribly. Perhaps they should turn him heel and have him stop being such a goofball on BTE.


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## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

Sometimes things just work in Japan and don't translate well to the USA. For example WCW's Scott Norton was a massive deal in Japan winning the IWGP Heavyweight Championship two times and being one of the top gaijin stars that NJPW had for many years. However when he worked WCW he was simply a midcard guy acting as muscle for the nWo. Nobody was super into him or buying into him but in Japan he was a huge deal.

Kenny doesn't appeal to America in my opinion just like Scott Norton.


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## Cult03 (Oct 31, 2016)

Chip Chipperson said:


> Sometimes things just work in Japan and don't translate well to the USA. For example WCW's Scott Norton was a massive deal in Japan winning the IWGP Heavyweight Championship two times and being one of the top gaijin stars that NJPW had for many years. However when he worked WCW he was simply a midcard guy acting as muscle for the nWo. Nobody was super into him or buying into him but in Japan he was a huge deal.
> 
> Kenny doesn't appeal to America in my opinion just like Scott Norton.


They aren't even using him like he was used in Japan. He needs to act like a fucking Ace already. Dress like an Ace, act like an Ace, win like an Ace. Then it will translate. Not everyone has to be goofy in this company


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## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

Omega is the company’s star. He was used to put over Jericho, making him a bigger star. He was used to elevate Pac, making him look like a badass. He was used to put over Moxley, making him look like an even bigger badass than he was. He is now being used to elevate Hangman’s status, who was clearly directionless and not connecting with the crowd.

Omega‘s been slowly ramping up, and you can see it with the intensity and speed he has been delivering the snap dragons and what not. Prior to the New Year, Omega would sort of go through the motions with his offense. It’s ramping up, because Moxley is closing in on the title.

Mox wins the title. Omega and Page finish out this angle. Mox and Omega work toward something BIG. This is the backbone of the company.


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## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

There are a few issues at play. First of all, Gedo is a genius. He knew how to book Omega and how to get the most out of him. No one in AEW does that. Secondly, he is a mark for himself, and he thinks he is funny, cool, popular and all that (you can see this from the Elite videos and gifs of him that go around). That doesn't play well to audiences that don't know who you are. Thirdly, he isn't as good as people think he is, and that is exposing him when he's in a US promotion. Fourthly, apparently he books himself to look like shit, which is just fucking stupid, especially if he was anywhere near as good as he thinks he is. Fifthly, people don't actually watch New Japan as much as they say. People thought Albert and Festus got really good over there. A lot of it is mythic. When you see these guys week-to-week you realize that it was kind of all hype. 

TL;DR:

1. Gedo's largely to credit for New Japan Kenny. 
2. Kenny is largely to blame for AEW Kenny.
3. He's not as good an overall worker as people think he is. 
4. The AEW booking is shit. 
5. "New Japan is sooooo fucking cool!" hype


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## RapShepard (Jun 20, 2014)

bdon said:


> Omega is the company’s star. He was used to put over Jericho, making him a bigger star. He was used to elevate Pac, making him look like a badass. He was used to put over Moxley, making him look like an even bigger badass than he was. He is now being used to elevate Hangman’s status, who was clearly directionless and not connecting with the crowd.
> 
> Omega‘s been slowly ramping up, and you can see it with the intensity and speed he has been delivering the snap dragons and what not. Prior to the New Year, Omega would sort of go through the motions with his offense. It’s ramping up, because Moxley is closing in on the title.
> 
> Mox wins the title. Omega and Page finish out this angle. Mox and Omega work toward something BIG. This is the backbone of the company.


The Jericho part makes no sense. Beating Omega does nothing to enhance Jericho.


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## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

RapShepard said:


> The Jericho part makes no sense. Beating Omega does nothing to enhance Jericho.


It doesn’t elevate Jericho, but it makes him look like more than the past his prime, out of shape guy that he looked like coming into this thing for the American audience that hadn’t seen him in a while. Such as myself.

More importantly, Jericho being who he is elevates the title more than Kenny would have as first champion.

I don’t agree with the booking myself, but I understand the thinking behind it.


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## Real Deal (Dec 8, 2010)

Being a WWE guy and not watching his work in Japan, Omega isn't elevating anyone, simply because he's not a star in my eyes. To me, he's a mid-carder.

And yes, I know he was supposedly incredible before AEW, and he may be incredible right now if he's sitting on his hands for a while...but the fact is, Kenny Omega is AEW to me, nothing more, and in AEW and on my television, he's not a star until he starts winning big matches.


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## One Shed (Jan 7, 2014)

A couple facts:

1. Kenny thinks he is a mega star
2. Most of the North American audience have never heard of him

Kenny wants to help makes new stars. I truly believe that. The problem is he thinks the TNT audience all watch Japanese wrestling and they do not. They have done little to make him look more than an upper mid card guy on Dynamite so far so when someone beats him it is not some huge elevation. From his promos and silly skits, if I were a lapsed WWE fan tuning in i would expect him to be a dance routine within a month.


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## TD Stinger (May 9, 2012)

Well there's a few things really.

1. He's on weekly TV now. I imagine that there's a good number of Kenny Omega fans who watched him in NJPW who didn't watch every single show he was on. They watched the big time matches like vs. Okada, Tana, Naito, Ishii, etc. Or even if they did try to watch everything with him, NJPW goes by a tour by tour system, not weekly TV.

To watch someone on weekly TV, You're just seen that much more often so some of the uniqueness wears off.

2. He doesn't really have the mindset of being a top guy anymore, at least not right now. In NJPW, he had that mentality. But Kenny did a Twitter Q&A a few weeks back where he basically said that he accomplished all of his personal goals during his last run in Japan and now he's focused on other things.

I mean the way you hear the guy talk it sounds like his career is winding down as if he's nearing 50 or something. He's only 36. But now in AEW, he's not just worried about his own stuff. He has a lot of responsibility now as an agent/booker for the Women's Division which also takes a lot of his time and energy.

3. He's not winning. I mean, this is kind of a simple one. At the end of the day, people perceive stars as winners (in most cases anyways). Kenny has lost all of his matches on PPV, seemingly to tear him down to build him back up. Time will tell if that actually works.


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## Contra Unit (Jan 13, 2020)

Yeah pretty much. Even in his own tagteam, Hangman 'Hold my Beer' Adam Page comes off as a much bigger star. I remember watching both of those blokes back at NJPW but Page never really stood out much back then.
Now maybe that's by design, but I don't really think so coz Kenny is still booked as if we're supposed to give a damn about him.


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## The Masked Avenger (Apr 18, 2018)

Maybe to you but as someone who has never watched any Omega match prior to DoN his star isn't bigger than anyone else. Omega was one of the few names I had heard of when I wasn't watching wrestling so I knew when he signed it was a big deal. However, many people don't watch NJPW so they don't know him and I think they are aware of that. He needs to build his star in America first before being the guy. Jericho and Moxley are bigger stars and they will hold the championship first. Kenny will get to the top of the mountain eventually but he is waiting his turn. AEW has shown that they can build someone up quickly without it felling forced.


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## Alexander_G (Mar 10, 2018)

Compared to where he was a year ago, he has.

Generally, it is hard for people who made a big star career getting over somewhere else other than the US, to then go and get over the same way in the US if at all.


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## RainmakerV2 (Nov 8, 2017)

NJPW also put him against the best workers in the world to make him look tremendous. Theres no one there even close to a Tanahashi or Okada or Ishii. Not even CLOSE. Takes two to tango.


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## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

Kenny took 8 years to find his way in Japan

i don’t expect him to be an overnight success in US

but he’ll get there


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## JJKING13 (Jan 11, 2020)

LifeInCattleClass said:


> Kenny took 8 years to find his way in Japan
> 
> i don’t expect him to be an overnight success in US
> 
> but he’ll get there


This. He is being built up slowly. All the big losses last year. Now he is a tag champ in a program that is going somewhere. He will eventually be one of the top guys as far as the world title goes. I’m sure he will face Moxley again down the road. And, he is due for rubber matches with PAC and Jericho.


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## 304418 (Jul 2, 2014)

Well, let’s be clear that Omega has no shortage of quality opponents if his star aura is dependent on match quality.

Omega vs Pentagon
Omega vs Fenix
Omega vs Moxley
Omega vs Guevara
Omega vs Sabian
Omega vs Cody
Omega vs Dustin
Omega vs MJF
Omega vs Trent
Omega vs Allin
Omega vs Hangman
Omega vs Daniels
Omega vs Scorpio Sky
Omega vs Jungle Boy
Omega vs PAC III
Omega vs Jericho III

That quite a list, and he’ll be able to have classic matches and be the Best Bout Machine with any of them. And that list doesn’t even account for anyone new that may sign to AEW. His weak points are in two areas.

The first is that he’s lacking the promo time that enables character development and viewers that aren’t familiar with him to form a connection. He doesn’t seem to do backstage interviews or post match interviews at all. In NJPW he did, and even did his post match promos and post match interviews in Japanese, which the Japanese audience warmly received. This basically leaves video packages for a major match in order for Omega to sell himself beyond ring work, and AEW does not hold PPVs on a frequent enough basis in order for that to be effective. So he needs to get in front of a mic often.

The second is that instead of the monthly shows produced by NJPW where the majority of storytelling is done in the ring and the occasional post match comments delivered after a match, he’s now in a promotion where storytelling is now done on a weekly basis and is more dependent on storyline development and progression than just ring work. It is in complete opposition to what Omega is used to in terms of developing star power. The Cleaner is a character. Best Bout Machine unfortunately is not, unless he turns his character into some sort of litmus test for younger wrestlers to prove that they belong in the upper echelons of AEW.

The main benefit he has though is that he’s not confined to the restrictions of WWE. Not just the PG element, but the micromanagement elements as well. It just has not been capitalized on, beyond his feud with Moxley.


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## the_flock (Nov 23, 2016)

I think the problem is all the storytelling and promos are being played out on YouTube and not on TV. 

Naturally I think not having a secondary title straight away has hurt them as Cody or Kenny would have been the natural title holders in the beginning before putting over the likes of MJF and Page.


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## Lethal Evans (Dec 18, 2013)

Once Mox wins the title and beats Pac in a feud, Kenny will have a rocket strapped to him to get his redemption story.


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## validreasoning (Jul 4, 2012)

Are people suggesting he was unknown in the us prior to joining aew..that's not true. He had major effect on ticket sales when added to events Strong Ticket Sales For ROH Global Wars From Chicago, New Matches For War Of The Worlds

WWE offered him mainevent money. They don't do that to someone who is unknown to us audiences. AJ styles stock rose many multitudes when he won IWGP title, Omega won title, g1 and mainevented Wrestlekingdom twice so his career in NJPW easily outstripped Styles.

Omega feels like a midcard guy now because he had been booked as a midcard guy since losing his first match. It's not because audience doesn't know him. I was in building for Nakamuras debut both nxt and SD and crowd went apeshit and WWE audience are more casual than aew audience


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## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

Omega is hot with the crowds and has been ramping up his intensity.

He’s laid low _with a purpose_.


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## TD Stinger (May 9, 2012)

Verbatim17 said:


> Well, let’s be clear that Omega has no shortage of quality opponents if his star aura is dependent on match quality.
> 
> Omega vs Pentagon
> Omega vs Fenix
> ...


None of those guys are bad opponents, but it doesn't equal the level of talent of guys like Okada, Tana, Naito, Ibushi, Ishii, Goto, etc. combined.

Pentagon has been exposed as bit overrated. Guys like Guevara, Jungle Boy, Sabian, Trent, and Sky aren't there yet. I've seen the Cody match twice, neither really delivered. Dustin really isn't that guy anymore unless he's working with Cody. And honestly neither is Daniels. MJF hasn't been properly tested in a big match yet. Even his last match vs. Jericho really wasn't anything special.

So of that list I would say Mox, PAC, Fenix and maybe Allin Hangman as guys that could really get the best out of Kenny. But even they don't compare to what he was working with before.


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## Boldgerg (Apr 2, 2017)

He is clearly being completely wasted. It's bizarre.


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## Erik. (Mar 17, 2014)

He's going to get a proper build once Moxley wins the belt. 

Wouldn't surprise me if he turns heel with the Bucks and they eventually turn on Page. 

Then goes on to beat Moxley for the belt as the companies top heel.


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## Prosper (Mar 25, 2015)

You guys have to also realize on top of everything that’s been said, that Kenny is essentially booking himself. He’s a VP and if he wants to be pushed harder, he can book it himself. He is intentionally giving away his TV time because he wants to get Joshi wrestling more over as well as other guys who are lesser known. It’s his choice. If he wasn’t doing this, you guys would be saying that he’s booking himself to be the top dog and abusing his executive power. There’s no way he can win. It doesn’t matter how he chose to present himself early on, he would be met with criticism.

Any good angle or storyline can get Omega back to where he was when he left New Japan, so I don’t know why some of you are talking like his star power diminished to the point where it’s irretrievable. This is wrestling. You’re not paid attention to one day and massively over the next. Becky was a nobody before her heel turn. Bryan was a mid carder before the Authority storyline. Bray Wyatt was a jobber before he came back as The Fiend. Moxley was a mid carder leaving WWE and he drops one 30 second video on Twitter and becomes the hottest free agent in wrestling. Kenny will be fine.


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## Lethal Evans (Dec 18, 2013)

prosperwithdeen said:


> You guys have to also realize on top of everything that’s been said, that Kenny is essentially booking himself. He’s a VP and if he wants to be pushed harder, he can book it himself. He is intentionally giving away his TV time because he wants to get Joshi wrestling more over as well as other guys who are lesser known. It’s his choice. If he wasn’t doing this, you guys would be saying that he’s booking himself to be the top dog and abusing his executive power. There’s no way he can win. It doesn’t matter how he chose to present himself early on, he would be met with criticism.
> 
> Any good angle or storyline can get Omega back to where he was when he left New Japan, so I don’t know why some of you are talking like his star power diminished to the point where it’s irretrievable. This is wrestling. You’re not paid attention to one day and massively over the next. Becky was a nobody before her heel turn. Bryan was a mid carder before the Authority storyline. Bray Wyatt was a jobber before he came back as The Fiend. Moxley was a mid carder leaving WWE and he drops one 30 second video on Twitter and becomes the hottest free agent in wrestling. Kenny will be fine.


He's genuinely operating like a retired gunslinger, helping the younger guys until he's needed again.


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## 304418 (Jul 2, 2014)

TD Stinger said:


> None of those guys are bad opponents, but it doesn't equal the level of talent of guys like Okada, Tana, Naito, Ibushi, Ishii, Goto, etc. combined.
> 
> Pentagon has been exposed as bit overrated. Guys like Guevara, Jungle Boy, Sabian, Trent, and Sky aren't there yet. I've seen the Cody match twice, neither really delivered. Dustin really isn't that guy anymore unless he's working with Cody. And honestly neither is Daniels. MJF hasn't been properly tested in a big match yet. Even his last match vs. Jericho really wasn't anything special.
> 
> So of that list I would say Mox, PAC, Fenix and maybe Allin Hangman as guys that could really get the best out of Kenny. But even they don't compare to what he was working with before.


True, but there were stakes involved when he was facing Okada, Tanahashi, Ibushi, Naito, Ishii & Goto when Omega started to pick up steam from the summer of 2016 on. Even against guys like Juice Robinson & YOSHI-HASHI stakes were involved. And his match quality ramped up when he became a top guy. The only matches in AEW that can compare are with CIMA (stakes being for Omega to get into the singles win column), Janela (to prove he can hang in Moxley’s world in a Light’s Out match), Moxley (a top guy) and his series with PAC (another top guy).

Pentagon facing Omega for the AAA Mega Championship on Dark would produce a better outing than their match at All In, due to both Pentagon being a top guy in lucha libre and stakes being involved. Similar case with Fenix.

Trent and Cody are listed for those that want something familiar from NJPW.

Dustin could work as a new school vs old school match. Same with Daniels.

Sabian did alright against Omega, but Guevara, Jungle Boy and Sky are unknown, as is MJF and Allin.

Hangman Page might fare better with Omega than he did with Jericho.


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## Oracle (Nov 9, 2011)

Kenny has stated in interviews he doesnt want to be the GUY anymore. 

he wants to help bring in the next generation and is happy putting himself in the firing line to do so.

Kenny is literally an enhancement talent tbese days.


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## La Parka (Oct 28, 2008)

He was never a star in the USA and his booking in AEW guaranteed he never will be.


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## CRCC (Sep 25, 2017)

He peaked while working with Okada.

His IWGP HW champion run was good but not great and he's been on free fall ever since.

He's a great talent and I'm a fan but there is no denying that he's not the star he once was.


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## Leon Knuckles (Sep 2, 2013)

Yes.


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## imthegame19 (Oct 12, 2008)

It's really easy to see why his stock has dropped a bit. That's because being on weekly tv in US in a start up company with tons of unknown talent. Is a very different situation then he was in Japan. 


In New Japan talent is way less exposed. Unless it's G1 these wrestlers do maybe one big match a month along with some tag matches. While New Japan has talent they built up in great matches for years. So when fans started seeing Omega having these great long ppv matches with these guys. It started creating a buzz like we currently see with Will Ospreay.


Then New Japan strapped that rocket ship on Omega back to the top. So the combo if great matches, showing some personality in promos and getting pushed as the top guy made him a star among hardcore fans. The buzz was so big that even if you never saw him wrestle or seen what he looks like. Most people who watch wrestling at least heard of him. 


Now fast foward to AEW. Well he doesn't have this large group of established talent to have these epic matches with anymore. So people say Omega/Jericho was fine. But match wasn't as good as New Japan match when Jericho was little younger. Or when he faced Pac at All Out it was good match. But fans couldn't really be excited for it. Because they weren't over not getting Omega/Moxley. 


Then when they do Omega/Moxley in a long epic match. Well the style of them doing it in a hardcore or garbage match style was the talk of everything. So three big matches and no hype for being best match of the year(Moxley/Omega got some of that hype as great from certain fans tho). Then on top of that he lost all three matches. When people who followed him from New Japan aren't use to see him losing big matches so much. 


Beyond that though he tried to have long epic matches wins with Cima, Joey Janela and Kip Sabian. Yet fans just crapped on him doing that. Because we are taught as fans in American wrestling that top guys should be squashing or winning quick against unknown/proven talent. The problem is AEW roster isn't that deep and especially wasn't in 2019. So wrestling a Janela or Sabian in AEW would be like him wrestling a Goto or Ishii in Japan. But Goto/Ishii have decades of great work and matches. While Janela/Sabian are two smaller guys straight off indies. So it gets a totally different reaction for Omega. 


On top of the matches Omega now getting exposed on tv every week. He can't cut a couple promos a month to sell a big match up. He's expected to be entertaining in and out of the ring every single week. When you don't cut promos a lot and just like to have fun and wrestle. Well fans are going to be very critical of that. 


When you are on weekly tv fans are very very demanding. Look at Moxley doing stuff vs Inner Circle. Good promo and entertaining segment last week. But was it great or anything special? That becomes expectations from fans. Like when Orton destroys Edge it's great tv. Because they are playing off a real injury with a guy just returning to the ring after 9 years. So fans really believe Edge might get reinjured again etc. When AEW tries to do injury eye angle. Fans once again go it was good but we know it wasn't real. Even if Moxley wears eye patch for 3 weeks.


So fans are very demanding about weekly tv. Look at Moxley/Suzuki they can brawl around 3 or 4 times for a month. With that being enough to hype up big match between them. While AEW can do all this long story line stuff with Moxley and Innercircle. With reaction being it's good or fine but they need to do more for it to be really good or great.


So to make a long story short. I do think Omega can get back to where he was as a performer as AEW adds talent. Omega/Page, Omega/Brodie Lee, Omega/Hager, Omega/Archer, Omega/Cage(if he comes and Matt Hardy too give he signs) and even Omega/Moxley In a regular match. Will be much better receive by fans overall. 


But for Omega to be a star in the US. He needs to get rid of the new Japan mentality. Thinking he can cut 1-2 minute backstage or pretaped promo to promote a match and that be enough. Then he can go to the ring and act silly with Young Bucks. That stuff isn't gonna fly with demanding weekly tv audiences. We need to see him in the ring cutting promos. We need to see him in heated arguments with other wrestlers and showing personality.


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## 304418 (Jul 2, 2014)

Oracle said:


> Kenny has stated in interviews he doesnt want to be the GUY anymore.
> 
> he wants to help bring in the next generation and is happy putting himself in the firing line to do so.
> 
> Kenny is literally an enhancement talent tbese days.


Even if he wants to be an enhancement talent, he’s in America now; the buildup is just as, if not more important, than the matches. So, if he just wants to remain the Best Bout Machine and deliver 5 star matches to help put other talents over, he needs to adapt to the reality of storytelling on a weekly or even monthly basis.

Looking at the list of key 5 star matches in America (and one almost 5 star match), they all have a theme or story that gets them to that 5 star match:

- Bret Hart vs Owen Hart (brother vs brother)

- Bret Hart vs Steve Austin (top heel relentlessly targets top face with the aim of driving him out of the company, forcing face to turn to family for support and to turn heel in the process, while the top heel becomes a face)

- Razor Ramon vs Shawn Michaels (original champion is out with an injury, resulting in an interim champion be crowned and a question as to “who is the real IC champ?” when the champion returns from injury)

- Undertaker vs Shawn Michaels (special ref costs champion the title by KOing him with a chairshot by accident and then counted the 3 anyways, inciting the former champion’s wrath)

- John Cena vs CM Punk (challenger, after delivering a shoot promo, threatens to leave the company with the championship on his last night with the company and beat the FOTC in the process)

- Ric Flair vs Ricky Steamboat (series of matches where the multi time world champion gets bested by the younger star)

- Ric Flair vs Terry Funk (challenger injures champion after champion refuses to defend against challenger because he’s not ranked in the top 10; culminates in an I Quit match)

- Samoa Joe vs AJ Styles vs Christopher Daniels (champion defends against both after requesting one of the challengers gets suspended and is denied)

- Randy Savage vs Ricky Steamboat (champion injures challenger’s larynx; lasts 6 months and culminates at WM)

- Johnny Gargano vs Tommaso Ciampa (best friend turns on best friend, ending tag team in the process and igniting blood feud)

- Andrade ‘Cien’ Almas vs Johnny Gargano (champion defends against #1 contender)

That's three decades worth of 5 star matches in America. The formula isn't changing and doesn't even take into account Wargames, Cody vs Dustin at DoN or Lucha Bros vs Young Bucks at All Out last year. American fans clearly want build in the lead up to 5 star classics.


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## elidrakefan76 (Jul 23, 2018)

I know that Omega became a big star in Japan but that doesn't always translate to success in the U.S. In AEW, to me he looks like just another guy and I think that even Adam Page is more over with the crowd. It could be because of the way he has been booked but even his look to me is pretty bland. We'll see what happens in the coming months.


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## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

You think his look being bland is, maybe, by choice? That his booking is, maybe, by choice?

Omega had awesome gear in NJPW.

His time is coming.


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## The Masked Avenger (Apr 18, 2018)

Jericho and Mox were always going to be presented as the bigger stars. They took big risks gambling on AEW and they were always going to be rewarded with the first two title reigns. Kenny's time is coming.


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## Cult03 (Oct 31, 2016)

He's not over enough in America to put people over as a veteran. He needed to get over first, then put people over.


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## HelloSir (Dec 11, 2019)

Being a wrestling "star" in Japan isn't the same as being one on a weekly television show in the United States.

Maybe Kenny can grow into one someday, but he'll have to start proving himself infront of an audience that doesn't get tickled watching him wrestle little girls and talking like an evil Street Fighter character


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## RapShepard (Jun 20, 2014)

prosperwithdeen said:


> You guys have to also realize on top of everything that’s been said, that Kenny is essentially booking himself. He’s a VP and if he wants to be pushed harder, he can book it himself. He is intentionally giving away his TV time because he wants to get Joshi wrestling more over as well as other guys who are lesser known. It’s his choice. If he wasn’t doing this, you guys would be saying that he’s booking himself to be the top dog and abusing his executive power. There’s no way he can win. It doesn’t matter how he chose to present himself early on, he would be met with criticism.
> 
> Any good angle or storyline can get Omega back to where he was when he left New Japan, so I don’t know why some of you are talking like his star power diminished to the point where it’s irretrievable. This is wrestling. You’re not paid attention to one day and massively over the next. Becky was a nobody before her heel turn. Bryan was a mid carder before the Authority storyline. Bray Wyatt was a jobber before he came back as The Fiend. Moxley was a mid carder leaving WWE and he drops one 30 second video on Twitter and becomes the hottest free agent in wrestling. Kenny will be fine.


The EVPs are going to get criticized regardless, because they have power. Kenny's ego has lead to bad booking, it's just instead of the traditional rocket push, he's under pushing himself. Right now AEW doesn't need him being modest. Can you imagine the outrage if he was being used as a tag team champion in WWE, instead of being allowed to be the singles star he is?


----------



## El Hammerstone (Jan 11, 2020)

Omega doesn't have that star aura to anyone who hasn't already followed his work in Japan; this was one of AEWs biggest mistakes from the get go, assuming that guys like Omega and the Bucks had more star power than they actually did. Someone would have tuned into Double or Nothing and saw Omega and Jericho in the main event, and they would have wondered who the hell this guy is and why he deserves to be in the ring with a legend like Chris Jericho; to the mainstream viewer, Kenny is just a guy. Kenny was hotshotted into that match and then the deathmatch with Moxley before new fans could even get to know who the guy is and what he is all about. I'm definitely one of the hardcore fans that the company is trying to appeal to, but you can't build a successful organization on this level without appealing to casual fans.

Kenny should have been placed in the midcard from day one, while picking up wins and cutting a promo once in a while; give new fans an opportunity to get to know the guy. This way you haven't blown your load early, and you can now gradually move him up the card after some buildup, and the fans now have something to identify with when he goes up against the likes of Jericho and Mox.


----------



## cai1981 (Oct 2, 2016)

Myself and 90% of US wrestling fans who do not keep up with the Indies or Japan say: What aura???? On the stage that is US National Television, he has been presented as and only comes across as a mid-carder. If AEW desires him to be a big star on their stage, they put him in a big deficit in trying to get there because he has lost every big match he was in and has not shown an ounce of top star quality.


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

RainmakerV2 said:


> NJPW also put him against the best workers in the world to make him look tremendous. Theres no one there even close to a Tanahashi or Okada or Ishii. Not even CLOSE. Takes two to tango.


He was put with a lot of great workers, and while it does take two to tango, I think those amazing workers really were responsible for structuring things and holding them together. Omega is not one to lead a great match (happy for anyone to provide an example). 



JJKING13 said:


> This. He is being built up slowly. All the big losses last year. Now he is a tag champ in a program that is going somewhere. He will eventually be one of the top guys as far as the world title goes. I’m sure he will face Moxley again down the road. And, he is due for rubber matches with PAC and Jericho.


I keep hearing this, but what’s the point of this? Why break down a “star” (in a relative sense) to build them back up from nothing? I don’t get it.

Wouldn’t it be smarter to introduce Omega to audiences as a good wrestler out the gate?

I also keep hearing this alleged plan for Omega to win the AEW Title off Moxley. I’m not so sure Mox is even getting the belt. Jericho is by far and away the best thing in AEW. We’ve already seen Omega and Moxley and it fucking blew. Also, if this happens in the period people think it will, then it makes Mox a transitional champion. That’s very WWE to do to a potential star.

Also, Omega is currently a mid-card champ. 



validreasoning said:


> Are people suggesting he was unknown in the us prior to joining aew..that's not true. He had major effect on ticket sales when added to events Strong Ticket Sales For ROH Global Wars From Chicago, New Matches For War Of The Worlds
> 
> WWE offered him mainevent money. They don't do that to someone who is unknown to us audiences. AJ styles stock rose many multitudes when he won IWGP title, Omega won title, g1 and mainevented Wrestlekingdom twice so his career in NJPW easily outstripped Styles.
> 
> Omega feels like a midcard guy now because he had been booked as a midcard guy since losing his first match. It's not because audience doesn't know him. I was in building for Nakamuras debut both nxt and SD and crowd went apeshit and WWE audience are more casual than aew audience


ROH and “major” don’t really belong together. WWE offered him money to skewer AEW out the gate and damage perception during TV negotiations. Now that they aren’t threatened by AEW’s potential at all, it’s doubtful they would want Omega as urgently. It’s possible they would still pay out the ass for him, but he wouldn’t be focused on or featured.


----------



## Christopher Near (Jan 16, 2019)

I feel like it has. I remember January 2019 the whole wrestling world was talking about whether or not Omega was gonna show up at the rumble or resign with new japan. He was the hottest free agent


And someone made a good point, Kenny's current booking is pretty much how people thought wwe was gonna book him


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

Meltzer said Kenny put the match with Okada together. 

Now this is where you say Meltzer is lying.


----------



## Hangman (Feb 3, 2017)

Yeah he looks like a job guy now.


----------



## the_flock (Nov 23, 2016)

I reckon Kenny will leave before the end of his contract. 

Quite a few reports suggest that he is clashing with the other EVPs and has ideas different to theirs. He's trying to push a more Japanese style presentation and they are constantly butting heads on which direction to go in.


----------



## validreasoning (Jul 4, 2012)

Crediting Gedo for Omega ok but his new project Jay White isn't on same planet of overness outside Japan that Omega was.



cai1981 said:


> Myself and 90% of US wrestling fans who do not keep up with the Indies or Japan say: What aura???? On the stage that is US National Television, he has been presented as and only comes across as a mid-carder. If AEW desires him to be a big star on their stage, they put him in a big deficit in trying to get there because he has lost every big match he was in and has not shown an ounce of top star quality.


Even if people hadn't watched him they had heard the buzz surrounding Omega. Nobody since the end of WCW (probably 1999 WCW) had made such a name from themselves in the US not working WWE.

If you look at Google searches in US over past 5 years Omega has higher peaks than Chris Jericho. Omegas Wrestlekingdom mainevent last January had more interest than anything Jericho did this past five years and Jerichos been in high profile storyline on Raw, debuted in NJPW, joined AEW and spent most of the past year the top guy in AEW.


----------



## cai1981 (Oct 2, 2016)

validreasoning said:


> Crediting Gedo for Omega ok but his new project Jay White isn't on same planet of overness outside Japan that Omega was.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I heard a lot about him and The Young Bucks before AEW was formed. I did watch a couple of Omega matches and was not blown away. The Bucks I did not see until the first episode of Dynamite and only see them as a very, very, very poor reincarnation of The Rock 'n' Roll Express and The Rockers.

Omega and TYB were overhyped and IMO are highly overrated and I cannot see how they can prove to be otherwise.


----------



## One Shed (Jan 7, 2014)

Meltzer lost me a long time ago, but him saying over the weekend on Twitter that Kenny has some top level cerebral way of putting matches together is next level crazy. And then he says if you do not see it, it just goes over your head. It fails as an argument when you bake in a criticism to anyone who would dare disagree with you.

I was neutral on Kenny when AEW started. I had heard of him but never really seen him. He has been presented as a mid card at best guy so far so I have never seen him as a star. That is a big problem. If the show you are on has not presented you as a star, you are not a star. What if Hogan had gone to WCW and had matches with El Dandy? Maybe that is not a great analogy because everyone already knew who Hogan was.

So far on North American TV, he has had some decent matches, pretty poor promos, and some really dumb comedy segments. Not a great start for him.


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

He’s been presented as midcard for Cody’s ego.

And just where are these reports that Kenny and the others aren’t agreeing?


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

bdon said:


> Meltzer said Kenny put the match with Okada together.
> 
> Now this is where you say Meltzer is lying.


I do believe Meltzer has been misled. I’ve got eyes and a brain, and so do others I trust who have watched it and can tell Okada is the glue.

Meltzer once said Sabu is a better wrestler than Bret Hart. He bites into what’s presented to him too hard. He sees Omega being “dynamic” (in his opinion), and he chalks that up to Omega.

Go back and watch that match and tell me that Okada is not tempering it. Okada has the best match structure in the world. Also, that was Kenny’s first WK main event. Do you really think that Okada decided to take a night off and said “Kenny, you take this one. I’m going to have a nap”?

You’re making the mistake of believing Meltzer when it comes to The Elite. They have his ear and he will print whatever they tell him. WWE wanted to kill them weeks in. They wanted to get the drop. Vince is personally involved. New Japan is blocking Kenny. The Young Bucks made “mid-six figures” in New Japan. They’re t-shirt juggernauts. They’re all fucking geniuses. They’re all the nicest guys on the planet.

Meltzer clearly has no problem printing the myth with these guys. 



validreasoning said:


> Crediting Gedo for Omega ok but his new project Jay White isn't on same planet of overness outside Japan that Omega was.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Great post. I can see you’ve put thought in and done proper research. I disagree with the importance you place on the metrics, but I’m not going to doubt them.

I agree that Jay White is not as over with the US audiences. How’s he doing in Japan though? I think Will Ospreay can be that guy with US audiences. They’re after “spectacular.”

A lot of that searching for Omega could be that people don’t know who he is, lol. I’m more interested in how that alleged interest translated into other more tangible metrics. Didn’t Jericho mean big business for New Japan? How has New Japan done without Kenny Omega?

There’s certainly a mystique and myth around guys who go to New Japan. Hell, Albert and Festus both got it. I need more than that fan-built hysteria though. It needs to become something.


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

Well, a company was created off the buzz of Omega and Jericho. Buzz that doesn’t exist without Omega vs Okada. DoN did great. All Out sold out in minutes when Mox-Omega was the only big match announced. MSG sell out with everyone expecting to see Omega-Okada.


----------



## Alexander_G (Mar 10, 2018)

People need to have a bit more patience. Omega is the slow burn of the show, by the end of the year everyone may be speaking differently and talking about how he's putting on 5-star matches again.


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

bdon said:


> Well, a company was created off the buzz of Omega and Jericho. Buzz that doesn’t exist without Omega vs Okada. DoN did great. All Out sold out in minutes when Mox-Omega was the only big match announced. MSG sell out with everyone expecting to see Omega-Okada.


Jericho going anywhere else would have created buzz. If he had attacked Tanahashi and cut his hair or something, you don’t think it would have buzzed?

All Elite was doing great off the “Not WWE” factor. The same with other wrestling in MSG _on WrestleMania weekend._

Attributing that success to Omega is like saying Undertaker is the reason ratings were high in 2000. 



Alexander_G said:


> People need to have a bit more patience. Omega is the slow burn of the show, by the end of the year everyone may be speaking differently and talking about how he's putting on 5-star matches again.


Why though? Why is he slow-burn? That doesn’t make any sense.


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

The Wood said:


> Jericho going anywhere else would have created buzz. If he had attacked Tanahashi and cut his hair or something, you don’t think it would have buzzed?
> 
> All Elite was doing great off the “Not WWE” factor. The same with other wrestling in MSG _on WrestleMania weekend._
> 
> ...


I think he’s a slow burn, because Cody is in his feelings.

But that’s just me.

For the other point, why did All Out sell out when Moxley-Omega was the only big match listed?

Omega may not be a draw anymore. I’m comfortable having that discussion, but at that time, he was a star. People wanted a chance to see the “Best Bout Machine”. He was new to the US crowds, mythological even.


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

bdon said:


> I think he’s a slow burn, because Cody is in his feelings.
> 
> But that’s just me.
> 
> ...


Cody is where he is because he’s outclassed Kenny from the start. This hasn’t been deliberate. Kenny was the main event and Cody was underneath.

Hang on, didn’t we know Jericho vs. Page was happening too? That point’s a little bullshit. Also, that’s still the not WWE thing. All Out was supposed to be their Mecca, and the one year anniversary of All In and in Chicago. And if you want to credit Omega’s ghost for selling out All Out, can’t we do the same thing for CM Punk and the potential stars expected and known about (Jericho?).

I really doubt people were going “Nahhhh” until they heard “Omega vs. Moxley” and dived for their computers.


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

Cody is where he is, because he has been burning through every fucking feud to keep himself top of the page. Cody is where he is, because he makes sure to do a goddamn different entrance than everyone else that eats up time on the show. Cody is where he is, because he is insecure in his own skin with regard to his place in the wrestling industry.

WWE and NJPW did a number on his psyche.


----------



## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

bdon said:


> Cody is where he is, because he has been burning through every fucking feud to keep himself top of the page. Cody is where he is, because he makes sure to do a goddamn different entrance than everyone else that eats up time on the show. Cody is where he is, because he is insecure in his own skin with regard to his place in the wrestling industry.
> 
> WWE and NJPW did a number on his psyche.


sit back, take a breath, realise.... you are very objective, until it comes to Cody or Kenny


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

Sure, Cody doesn’t have insecurities stemming from WWE and NJPW.


----------



## Cult03 (Oct 31, 2016)

bdon said:


> I think he’s a slow burn, because Cody is in his feelings.
> 
> But that’s just me.
> 
> ...


Because they hinted at Punk coming in for months on end. Because of the people who might show up. Because anything could have happened, but didn't.


----------



## RapShepard (Jun 20, 2014)

Alexander_G said:


> People need to have a bit more patience. Omega is the slow burn of the show, by the end of the year everyone may be speaking differently and talking about how he's putting on 5-star matches again.


Thing is why do a slow burn with a guy who was seen as the biggest non-WWE stars? The promotion is named after a group in which Omega is the most popular and revered member. If he was in the same spot in WWE folk would be talking about how Vince let the hottest guy in wrestling fizzle out, there'd be no talk of patience.


----------



## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

bdon said:


> Sure, Cody doesn’t have insecurities stemming from WWE and NJPW.


having a chip on your shoulder is a far cry from ‘insecure in his own skin’


----------



## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

RapShepard said:


> Thing is why do a slow burn with a guy who was seen as the biggest non-WWE stars? The promotion is named after a group in which Omega is the most popular and revered member. If he was in the same spot in WWE folk would be talking about how Vince let the hottest guy in wrestling fizzle out, there'd be no talk of patience.


damned if you do, damned if you don’t - if he was hot-shotted to the top, then cries of ‘The Elite books themselves at the top’ would’ve been deafening

Jericho being on top ended up being the right call IMO. Now, holding off longer on Kenny.... the jury is still out on that one....


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

One guy is comfortable in his own skin and place in the wrestling community that he’s laid low to allow the company and other wrestlers time to breath. 

The other guy is suffering from a Jesus Complex, has to make everything about him, and acts like HHH, because he isn’t sure of himself and can’t shake that feeling. The consequences of that feeling eating at him is that he is worried everyone else might be as unsure of him as he is himself.

Insecure.


----------



## RapShepard (Jun 20, 2014)

LifeInCattleClass said:


> damned if you do, damned if you don’t - if he was hot-shotted to the top, then cries of ‘The Elite books themselves at the top’ would’ve been deafening
> 
> Jericho being on top ended up being the right call IMO. Now, holding off longer on Kenny.... the jury is still out on that one....


Agree they're going to be criticized negatively regardless. No matter how long they wait, the folk that were going to knock them. They'll just add "they think they were fooling somebody by waiting to do it". 

I still think Jericho was the wrong choice. Jericho is big and legendary he doesn't need the belt. Their first episode should've been "hey here's our champion Kenny Omega that hottest guy in wrestling" and " hey we even have stars you're familiar with like Jericho, Cody, and Moxley".


----------



## validreasoning (Jul 4, 2012)

LifeInCattleClass said:


> damned if you do, damned if you don’t - if he was hot-shotted to the top, then cries of ‘The Elite books themselves at the top’ would’ve been deafening
> 
> Jericho being on top ended up being the right call IMO. Now, holding off longer on Kenny.... the jury is still out on that one....


Then why sign him to deal?

People haven't been negative to Cody booked on top so I don't buy they would have been negative towards Omega who is considered better worker and was much bigger draw for NJPW and ROH and who WWE had wanted for years.

I can't believe anyone thought when Omega was announced that night back in February 19 that the next year he would be used as a slow burn guy who would be wrestling in a tag team in opening matches a year later.


----------



## The Masked Avenger (Apr 18, 2018)

bdon said:


> One guy is comfortable in his own skin and place in the wrestling community that he’s laid low to allow the company and other wrestlers time to breath.
> 
> The other guy is suffering from a Jesus Complex, has to make everything about him, and acts like HHH, because he isn’t sure of himself and can’t shake that feeling. The consequences of that feeling eating at him is that he is worried everyone else might be as unsure of him as he is himself.
> 
> Insecure.


Except Mr. Jesus Complex is the most over person in the company outside of Mox. I agree that his entrances are too much and should only be for PPV's but your dislike is unfounded. If he was coming out to crickets that would be one thing but he's not so no harm no foul.


----------



## BigCy (Nov 10, 2012)

Good points on both sides of the fence here. I'll just weigh in with this...I think his ship has sailed and it's probably mostly his own doing. Several have stated that he purposely wants to lay low and if that's what he wants to do then so be it. In hindsight I do think it was a mistake not putting the belt on him right away as he was riding in hyped and hot but maybe they talked about it and he decided he didn't want to do it. Yeah a few people here and there would have griped about it but I think more people would have taken to him as champ than not. All in all if Kenny doesn't want to be on top then he won't be and if he wanted to be he would've already been. 

To those wondering about the "being broke down to rise up" philosophy they do it a lot in Japan, they will have a guy lose quite a bit and will then go through a rise where they start climbing and winning a bunch and get a final push where they end up being higher than they were to start. It works pretty well if done right, but I don't think they are doing it right with Omega (or Omega doesn't want it to.)

Not trying to piss off @bdon becaue he's already a little riled up about it but there is that possibility that Cody talked Kenny down and wanted the spotlight to be on him instead and he talked/conned Kenny into it. I would like to think that's not true but you never know with him.


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

BigCy said:


> Good points on both sides of the fence here. I'll just weigh in with this...I think his ship has sailed and it's probably mostly his own doing. Several have stated that he purposely wants to lay low and if that's what he wants to do then so be it. In hindsight I do think it was a mistake not putting the belt on him right away as he was riding in hyped and hot but maybe they talked about it and he decided he didn't want to do it. Yeah a few people here and there would have griped about it but I think more people would have taken to him as champ than not. All in all if Kenny doesn't want to be on top then he won't be and if he wanted to be he would've already been.
> 
> To those wondering about the "being broke down to rise up" philosophy they do it a lot in Japan, they will have a guy lose quite a bit and will then go through a rise where they start climbing and winning a bunch and get a final push where they end up being higher than they were to start. It works pretty well if done right, but I don't think they are doing it right with Omega (or Omega doesn't want it to.)
> 
> Not trying to piss off @bdon becaue he's already a little riled up about it but there is that possibility that Cody talked Kenny down and wanted the spotlight to be on him instead and he talked/conned Kenny into it. I would like to think that's not true but you never know with him.


_golf clap_


----------



## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

RapShepard said:


> Agree they're going to be criticized negatively regardless. No matter how long they wait, the folk that were going to knock them. They'll just add "they think they were fooling somebody by waiting to do it".
> 
> I still think Jericho was the wrong choice. Jericho is big and legendary he doesn't need the belt. Their first episode should've been "hey here's our champion Kenny Omega that hottest guy in wrestling" and " hey we even have stars you're familiar with like Jericho, Cody, and Moxley".


well, you‘re not wrong (is that a double negative?)

your scenario would‘ve worked too


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

BigCy said:


> Good points on both sides of the fence here. I'll just weigh in with this...I think his ship has sailed and it's probably mostly his own doing. Several have stated that he purposely wants to lay low and if that's what he wants to do then so be it. In hindsight I do think it was a mistake not putting the belt on him right away as he was riding in hyped and hot but maybe they talked about it and he decided he didn't want to do it. Yeah a few people here and there would have griped about it but I think more people would have taken to him as champ than not. All in all if Kenny doesn't want to be on top then he won't be and if he wanted to be he would've already been.
> 
> To those wondering about the "being broke down to rise up" philosophy they do it a lot in Japan, they will have a guy lose quite a bit and will then go through a rise where they start climbing and winning a bunch and get a final push where they end up being higher than they were to start. It works pretty well if done right, but I don't think they are doing it right with Omega (or Omega doesn't want it to.)
> 
> Not trying to piss off @bdon becaue he's already a little riled up about it but there is that possibility that Cody talked Kenny down and wanted the spotlight to be on him instead and he talked/conned Kenny into it. I would like to think that's not true but you never know with him.


I stand by, and will gladly admit to being wrong if it doesn’t occur, my belief that all of this Page, Elite stuff is Omega’s story. Jericho winning the title initially...a part of Omega’s story. Moxley beating him at Full Gear setting Mox on the path to Jericho...a part of Omega’s story. Regardless of who wins in 3 weeks 18 days...a part of Omega’s story.

He isn’t a traditionalist by any stretch. He views this shit like theater, for better or worse, and I absolutely believe that he sees this as a classic Hero’s Journey. Signing with AEW represents the Call to Adventure, the first year represented the Trials and Tribulation phase, growth and new skills gives way to Kenny’s Death and Rebirth where we stand now as he’s began ramping up the intensity and energy again, Revelations were hinted at with him snapping at the Bucks last week, then come Change, Atonement, yadda yadda yadda and the end game is and has always been Kenny as Tony Khan’s guy getting the title.

I could be wrong and the dude just flat out wants to solely be enhancement talent, feeling his wrestling life was fulfilled in NJPW, but that just isn’t what I see unfolding. And if that is the case, while I enjoy the narrative, I think he gives the American weekly viewing audience too much credit in thinking this was the best path.


----------



## the_flock (Nov 23, 2016)

Too many egos for such a small company to handle. 

They messed up with Kenny from the beginning, his feud with Jericho could have easily lasted 6 months to a year. With a few title changes. The writing has been patchy at best and that's why so many professionals are offering their services because they believe in the cause and want to help.


----------



## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

the_flock said:


> Too many egos for such a small company to handle.
> 
> They messed up with Kenny from the beginning, his feud with Jericho could have easily lasted 6 months to a year. With a few title changes. The writing has been patchy at best and that's why so many professionals are offering their services because they believe in the cause and want to help.


you’re really shuffling this ‘ego’ and ‘in-fighting’ thing in various threads, aren’t you


----------



## The Masked Avenger (Apr 18, 2018)

LifeInCattleClass said:


> you’re really shuffling this ‘ego’ and ‘in-fighting’ thing in various threads, aren’t you


Anything to make the brand look bad.


----------



## AEWMoxley (May 26, 2019)

bdon said:


> For the other point, why did All Out sell out when Moxley-Omega was the only big match listed


Definitely wasn't because of Omega. As soon as Moxley pulling out was announced, ticket prices on the secondary market plummeted, while Omega was still on the card.


----------



## Tell it like it is (Jul 1, 2019)

Speaking of Cody he should be thankful that Omega and the Bucks invited him to the group. If it wasn't for them he would be floundering in the indies or go back to wwe. Tell me why didn't tna made him world champion when he was there?? Its when he joined bullet club it's when he started to get opportunities. There's a reason why he was called the 3 star general. When he wanted to be leader of bc is like if buff bagwell was to replace hogan.


----------



## Jazminator (Jan 9, 2018)

bdon said:


> and acts like HHH, because he isn’t sure of himself and can’t shake that feeling. The consequences of that feeling eating at him is that he is worried everyone else might be as unsure of him as he is himself.


And you know this...how? Can you read Cody's mind?


----------



## Lethal Evans (Dec 18, 2013)

bdon said:


> I stand by, and will gladly admit to being wrong if it doesn’t occur, my belief that all of this Page, Elite stuff is Omega’s story. Jericho winning the title initially...a part of Omega’s story. Moxley beating him at Full Gear setting Mox on the path to Jericho...a part of Omega’s story. Regardless of who wins in 3 weeks 18 days...a part of Omega’s story.
> 
> He isn’t a traditionalist by any stretch. He views this shit like theater, for better or worse, and I absolutely believe that he sees this as a classic Hero’s Journey. Signing with AEW represents the Call to Adventure, the first year represented the Trials and Tribulation phase, growth and new skills gives way to Kenny’s Death and Rebirth where we stand now as he’s began ramping up the intensity and energy again, Revelations were hinted at with him snapping at the Bucks last week, then come Change, Atonement, yadda yadda yadda and the end game is and has always been Kenny as Tony Khan’s guy getting the title.
> 
> I could be wrong and the dude just flat out wants to solely be enhancement talent, feeling his wrestling life was fulfilled in NJPW, but that just isn’t what I see unfolding. And if that is the case, while I enjoy the narrative, I think he gives the American weekly viewing audience too much credit in thinking this was the best path.


I genuinely believe this is it. He'll overcome PAC, Page, Inner Circle (Match Beyond) and then Jericho, right as AEW head into their second year and he explodes.


----------



## The Masked Avenger (Apr 18, 2018)

Tell it like it is said:


> Speaking of Cody he should be thankful that Omega and the Bucks invited him to the group. If it wasn't for them he would be floundering in the indies or go back to wwe. Tell me why didn't tna made him world champion when he was there?? Its when he joined bullet club it's when he started to get opportunities. There's a reason why he was called the 3 star general. When he wanted to be leader of bc is like if buff bagwell was to replace hogan.


Because he was under contract with RoH and was only doing a few dates for Impact.


----------



## TD Stinger (May 9, 2012)

bdon said:


> I stand by, and will gladly admit to being wrong if it doesn’t occur, my belief that all of this Page, Elite stuff is Omega’s story. Jericho winning the title initially...a part of Omega’s story. Moxley beating him at Full Gear setting Mox on the path to Jericho...a part of Omega’s story. Regardless of who wins in 3 weeks 18 days...a part of Omega’s story.
> 
> He isn’t a traditionalist by any stretch. He views this shit like theater, for better or worse, and I absolutely believe that he sees this as a classic Hero’s Journey. Signing with AEW represents the Call to Adventure, the first year represented the Trials and Tribulation phase, growth and new skills gives way to Kenny’s Death and Rebirth where we stand now as he’s began ramping up the intensity and energy again, Revelations were hinted at with him snapping at the Bucks last week, then come Change, Atonement, yadda yadda yadda and the end game is and has always been Kenny as Tony Khan’s guy getting the title.
> 
> I could be wrong and the dude just flat out wants to solely be enhancement talent, feeling his wrestling life was fulfilled in NJPW, but that just isn’t what I see unfolding. And if that is the case, while I enjoy the narrative, I think he gives the American weekly viewing audience too much credit in thinking this was the best path.


Can't really say this Omega's story over Hangman's.

Hangman is the guy that from the day he signed with AEW, it feels like he's been developing. He said during the 1st press conference that he wanted to be the 1st AEW Champion. He had a chance against Jericho, and he failed. Ever since then he's been going through this inner turmoil where he's drinking and separating himself from the rest of the Elite. I mean if you saw BTE this week the biggest thing for me was at the end where The Bucks and Kenny were helping Cody to the back meanwhile Hangman was all by himself.

Kenny on the other hand feels like he's gone back and forth on what he's trying to be. Remember during the feud with Mox they were teasing Kenny showing off a different side. He kept saying "I'm just getting started" and was acting really unhinged, mainly on BTE. And then that whole angle just kind of stopped. Soon he was just by The Young Bucks side again and everything was cool. Nothing really came out of that.

So right now, this all feels like Hangman's story with Omega as a side character. An important side character, but still a side character.


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

bdon said:


> Cody is where he is, because he has been burning through every fucking feud to keep himself top of the page. Cody is where he is, because he makes sure to do a goddamn different entrance than everyone else that eats up time on the show. Cody is where he is, because he is insecure in his own skin with regard to his place in the wrestling industry.
> 
> WWE and NJPW did a number on his psyche.


Cody is the most over babyface they’ve got and is the only babyface whose stuff has been widely critically acclaimed. Nice try though.


----------



## zkorejo (Jul 2, 2010)

What star aura? The one from Japan that most of his new audience had no idea about? Would they have accepted him as this big deal if he had continued his NJPW persona? No. 

He wants to start from ground up again. This is the best move for him. Earning his new audience's respect slowly and gradually. Once he turns The Cleaner heel mainevent persona with aviators, people will be creaming their pants over him again. People first have to care about the character in order to truly hate them when they turn heel. WWE abandoned that logic a long time ago.


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

Are they doing a great job of making people care though? It feels like people are rather disenchanted with him.


----------



## Cult03 (Oct 31, 2016)

He didn't have to come in as the superstar, but he damn well should have come in hotter than this. He had hype, he has everyone calling him the best bout machine, saying he's had 5 star matches. He should be their Final Boss, only wrestling people who deserve it. They should be creating a 'Mania-like streak with him. He's their Ace and he's running around in a pink polo shirt for fucks sake..


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

There's nothing wrong with presenting Omega as a world class wrestler that AEW is being built around out the gate. I mean, that's what they hinted at with Jericho getting upset that Omega had been signed to _his_ promotion at the second press conference.


----------



## Prosper (Mar 25, 2015)

Everyone can't be pushed in the main event at the same time. I think picking Jericho and Moxley to run with the ball first was the right decision. Jericho is known in the U.S. and Moxley is white-hot. Omega will have his time and his star aura will be back where it was when his main storyline starts to develop. I wouldn't say he lost the aura, it's kind of just on pause. One great Okada level match can change all of that. I don't think he should be losing anymore though. Have him beat PAC in the ironman match, then have the Hangman feud be indecisive. Or you can have PAC screw Omega in the Hangman match and we get Omega/PAC 4 in AEW's next bloody unsanctioned match to end the feud.


----------



## Tilon (Jun 27, 2019)

Kenny is building himself back up from the ground. He had to do this in America, there's no other choice. Just continuing as if he's the same guy from NJPW won't work, too many people haven't seen it. The money with Kenny is in the build, as it always has been.


----------



## Prosper (Mar 25, 2015)

Tilon said:


> Kenny is building himself back up from the ground. He had to do this in America, there's no other choice. Just continuing as if he's the same guy from NJPW won't work, too many people haven't seen it. The money with Kenny is in the build, as it always has been.


I just hope that when Kenny's time comes, he is booked like a mega-star. I want the guy getting Moxley level or late 2018 Becky level reactions. He deserves nothing less. And honestly, I trust AEW to get him back to that point. It won't take much. They have done 90% of things right so far. Outside of the women's division and the Dark Order, AEW has been money.


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

Kenny continues to carry the matches. They’ve done a great job of building Page into a star, but I’m telling you, this is all long form story-telling for Kenny to become the company Ace.

Loving what they’re doing. He isn’t having to cut promos, do backstage stuff, etc. They’re giving Page and Pac the spotlight to build their own star power, but Kenny is ramping it up more and more.

I seriously hate myself for getting back into wrestling so late in life. Heh.


----------



## RapShepard (Jun 20, 2014)

Tilon said:


> Kenny is building himself back up from the ground. He had to do this in America, there's no other choice. Just continuing as if he's the same guy from NJPW won't work, too many people haven't seen it. The money with Kenny is in the build, as it always has been.


Everytime this point it's made, it just comes off like bull shit support because folk don't want to admit what's going on with him is underwhelming and dumb. We all know had WWE did this exact same thing nobody would want to be hearing about how "oh you got to build him up because Americans don't know him" we'd be hearing how " Vince is an out if touch dumbass ruining one of the best wrestlers in the world".


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

RapShepard said:


> Everytime this point it's made, it just comes off like bull shit support because folk don't want to admit what's going on with him is underwhelming and dumb. We all know had WWE did this exact same thing nobody would want to be hearing about how "oh you got to build him up because Americans don't know him" we'd be hearing how " Vince is an out if touch dumbass ruining one of the best wrestlers in the world".


I agree it was stupid and would have pushed him as the star of the show from Day 1, but I kind of like the way it has unfolded. It’s grown on me.

For instance, if you push Kenny as being “that guy” from Day 1:

What do you do with Jericho


Does Pac get buried by the loss much in the way Shawn Spears was with his L?


Does Cody get over or does he got lost in Omega’s spotlight? I think the guy takes it a bit far, but him being over is very important to the show.

And just how does an American audience turning on TNT take to seeing some guy they don’t know is the champion and biggest part of the show? Speaking from experience, I tried to get back into wrestling by watching TNA a few times when I heard Sting and all the guys were back together, but when I see Rhyno or the like as such a big part of the show, without knowing him it immediately felt Bush league.


----------



## RapShepard (Jun 20, 2014)

bdon said:


> I agree it was stupid and would have pushed him as the star of the show from Day 1, but I kind of like the way it has unfolded. It’s grown on me.
> 
> For instance, if you push Kenny as being “that guy” from Day 1:
> 
> ...


1. Have Jericho be the gatekeeper to the main event. Jericho has shown in his final years of WWE that he didn't need the title to be entertaining or to help young guys, see Kevin Owens. But just make sure isn't putting over folk like a TRENT.

2. Well Pac would've been fine as it is Hangman who ready that would've face Omega at All Out. Either way though Pac is much more established than Spears who's a career never was, Pac could handle a loss.

3. Cody still gets over as his battle with Dustin and The Spears feud didn't need Omega. It also means you don't have to rush the MJF turn as you aren't sending Cody to face Omega another face at Full Gear. 

4. To be perfectly honest for the type of fan you're referring to I think an old chubby Jericho being the champion is going to be more off putting than a fresh face being pushed as champion. If I'm a fan who hasn't watched in years possibly in over a decade if I'm tuning into watch a supposedly new fresh wrestling show, the last thing I want to see is old chubby Jericho who was around last time I watched and (most likely) wasn't nearly presented as strong.

I mean if we're being honest about who Jericho is career wise. He's a career upper midcard guy who's runs as world champ have always been transitional runs. He was never actually the guy or even really close to it. Having an old guy who never was the guy in his prime, start of your brand new show as the guy in your promotion, makes little sense to me. It actually makes the roster look worse if Jericho is the only somebody knows. Because Jericho is at that "oh he still wrestling" type age. Plus you don't need Jericho as champ to reap the benefits of his name value.


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

1. I didn’t watch, so I have no clue about Jericho’s time in WWE outside of The List stuff I’d see as a meme on social media.

2. I’d be curious to know how many people had heard of Pac. Omega had some serious name draw to him amongst wrestling fans. Pac was absolutely elevated with that win.

3. I think those first few months having Cody and Jericho feuding for the title made better sense for the start of a new show for the American audience. But that’s just me.

4. Well, I was a Jericholic before he even began the temper tantrums in WCW, so maybe my view is biased about.

Now I say all of that as someone who was one of the first to complain about them booking Omega as someone to just job and elevate everyone else. If it were up to me, he would have been the face from Day 1.

I just see the flip-side to that, and am actually really enjoying his build to that.


----------



## Fearless Viper (Apr 6, 2019)

I remember the hyped of Omega on how he was bigger than the trio Shield members lol. Just shows how delusional the marks were. 

Anyway, I'm not a fan of Omega but I think being part of creative probably kept him busy from being a big star.


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

prosperwithdeen said:


> Everyone can't be pushed in the main event at the same time. I think picking Jericho and Moxley to run with the ball first was the right decision. Jericho is known in the U.S. and Moxley is white-hot. Omega will have his time and his star aura will be back where it was when his main storyline starts to develop. I wouldn't say he lost the aura, it's kind of just on pause. One great Okada level match can change all of that. I don't think he should be losing anymore though. Have him beat PAC in the ironman match, then have the Hangman feud be indecisive. Or you can have PAC screw Omega in the Hangman match and we get Omega/PAC 4 in AEW's next bloody unsanctioned match to end the feud.


This feels like a cop-puts no one is saying everyone needs to be pushed into the main event. But you can probably build around four pillars — Jericho, Moxley, Omega, Cody. Even if you don’t put him in the immediate main events, you still don’t need to book him oike



Tilon said:


> Kenny is building himself back up from the ground. He had to do this in America, there's no other choice. Just continuing as if he's the same guy from NJPW won't work, too many people haven't seen it. The money with Kenny is in the build, as it always has been.


So which is it? Is Omega making stars because he’s selfless or is this about establishing himself? And if it’s about establishing himself, why is he doing it as a loser that needs to find his way.

Having someone debut as a loser is a great way to introduce someone to audiences. That certainly wouldn’t be a mark of bad booking. 



bdon said:


> I agree it was stupid and would have pushed him as the star of the show from Day 1, but I kind of like the way it has unfolded. It’s grown on me.
> 
> For instance, if you push Kenny as being “that guy” from Day 1:
> 
> ...


* It’s not like it’s World Title or bust. You can have more than one main eventer.

* Shawn Spears isn’t very good. He played his part and now he’s where he should be.

* Cody has completely outshined Omega in every way. Why is it so important that Cody is over and not Omega? Why can’t they both be over?

* Again, it’s not champion or bust. They could talk about how Kenny is a former IWGP Champion, a goal even Hulk Hogan didn’t achieve, and that Omega was the first North American to win Japan’s most prestigious tournament. You can show him winning matches. It’s just general sensible booking.


----------



## TKO Wrestling (Jun 26, 2018)

He was mega over last night in person but honestly the entire roster short of the Dark Order was. And I’m not even trying to trash the Dark Order, they just didn’t get the pop that everyone else got last night.


----------



## Disputed (Aug 20, 2018)

The Omega vs Page feud will cement both of them in the main event scene. Relax


----------



## incomplete moron (Nov 28, 2019)

yes


----------



## roadkill_ (Jan 28, 2010)

One Omega > TWO Young Sucks.


----------



## Jeripunk99 (Oct 16, 2017)

The Wood said:


> There are a few issues at play. First of all, Gedo is a genius. He knew how to book Omega and how to get the most out of him. No one in AEW does that. Secondly, he is a mark for himself, and he thinks he is funny, cool, popular and all that (you can see this from the Elite videos and gifs of him that go around). That doesn't play well to audiences that don't know who you are*. Thirdly, he isn't as good as people think he is, and that is exposing him when he's in a US promotion.* Fourthly, apparently he books himself to look like shit, which is just fucking stupid, especially if he was anywhere near as good as he thinks he is. Fifthly, people don't actually watch New Japan as much as they say. People thought Albert and Festus got really good over there. A lot of it is mythic. When you see these guys week-to-week you realize that it was kind of all hype.
> 
> TL;DR:
> 
> ...



Just stop. You are crazy if you dont think Kenny is a GREAT worker


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

Jeripunk99 said:


> Just stop. You are crazy if you dont think Kenny is a GREAT worker


Why? Guy can’t sell or throw a good punch. His stuff doesn’t look believable.


----------



## Bubbly (Oct 10, 2019)

As someone who didn't follow NJPW and only saw his Jericho match prior to AEW, I don't look at him and see a superstar tbh. In my own weird way, I see him as one of those really good workhorse, upper mid card guys who can go for the IC belt when it had some prestige. IMO after a lacklustre start to his AEW run, Hangman Page is starting to completely overshadow him.


----------



## NahFam (Sep 12, 2016)

I could be completely wrong and it's only my opinion, but doesn't it feel like it's part of their plan? Omega seems to have completely taken a back seat in order to allow others time to shine and build themselves up and overshadow him. It just seems so blatant, and that they want a chance to let Kenny have a slow build, possibly with a heel turn at some stage? And reinvent himself once the roster has been properly established around him. But whilst this is going on, using him to elevate others because the level he's at now he's not likely to fall below anyway, he can only go up once he gets a proper run. He's already put Jericho/Pac/Moxley over already.

I say this and I'm not even a huge Kenny fan. He's incredible in ring but I don't like him as much as Moxley for instance. But I think we do need to give them 12/18 months to let their stories unfold before criticising too heavily because it seems pretty clear that they have an idea of where they want to go. Whether it's successful is another story though.


----------



## MOXL3Y (Mar 19, 2017)

In 6 months time, maybe even less, I think we'll look back and laugh that some were even questioning his status as one of the best in AEW.


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

NahFam said:


> I could be completely wrong and it's only my opinion, but doesn't it feel like it's part of their plan? Omega seems to have completely taken a back seat in order to allow others time to shine and build themselves up and overshadow him. It just seems so blatant, and that they want a chance to let Kenny have a slow build, possibly with a heel turn at some stage? And reinvent himself once the roster has been properly established around him. But whilst this is going on, using him to elevate others because the level he's at now he's not likely to fall below anyway, he can only go up once he gets a proper run. He's already put Jericho/Pac/Moxley over already.
> 
> I say this and I'm not even a huge Kenny fan. He's incredible in ring but I don't like him as much as Moxley for instance. But I think we do need to give them 12/18 months to let their stories unfold before criticising too heavily because it seems pretty clear that they have an idea of where they want to go. Whether it's successful is another story though.


It seems obvious to me. Everything they have done leads me back to Kenny as the eventual top dog of the company. You don’t build a company with him as the face and main attraction coming in only to make him an enhancement talent.

I mean, why else does Kenny have by far the most matches of anyone? Why does it not seen preposterous to think Kenny could pull double duty at Revolution?

This is all his story.


----------



## shandcraig (Mar 23, 2008)

well hes not building himself up to anything so how can he have stardom feel. These vip guys are all just coasting the roster and downplaying themselves. But to be fair i feel its all for a bigger storyline that is coming.


----------



## patpat (Feb 17, 2019)

shandcraig said:


> well hes not building himself up to anything so how can he have stardom feel. These vip guys are all just coasting the roster and downplaying themselves. But to be fair i feel its all for a bigger storyline that is coming.


I still dont understand how people still question if it's a story or not.
It's literally used in video packages, promos. Pac cutting his promo last week said exactly that omega hasnt been himself yada yada listen to the commentary in 2019 all the year they did nothing but explain how omega lost it and needs his confidence back. 
The whole show on January 1st was based around that idea and it was centered around omega.
He hasnt taken a pin since the new year ( actually December, he got pinned but only because page hit him by accident). He is moving slowly pure surely towards the top but because its not "in your face" people wont notice.
Right now the tag thing is just for page to get over ( watch the matches and how page always get the hot tag and the structure of the tag). They will put him back in the single division and push him.
His bad year in kayfabe was 2019. Right now he is back on form he just hasnt had the opportunity to show. 
And that's why they are giving him a 30 min match on dynamite in 2 weeks. Omega lost 3 singles matches. Mox Jericho pac. He got the pac victory back but it wasnt as convincing( rollup) now he will definitely beat pac clean middle of the ring.
Pac trash the babyface and push the fight on him-> get his ass blasted. 
Classic storytelling and that's where omega's single push will start 
Patience is the keyword


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

I don’t understand _how_ people can think this is a storyline. Is he booking himself under or putting others over? Is he deliberately being shit or is he being protected? Is he a tag team guy or a singles? Why do you need to squint and apply head canon to come up with anything resembling a story.

If the logic is that Omega isn’t star enough in the US, so you can’t push him, how can it be expected that people cling onto all these “nuances” in his story.

Occam’s razor: Omega doesn’t know how to book. He is 36 years old, his best matches are behind him and were New Japan productions that didn’t expose him too much.

Imagine if you started a new wrestling promotion with Shawn Michaels in the 90s. The whole reason you have him is because he’s known as arguably the greatest in-ring performer of the decade. Does it make sense to tell him to go out there and have a bunch of clunkers, take a lot of losses, not care about his friends, tell the story that maybe he doesn’t have it anymore, all the while presenting him as a champion?


----------



## reyfan (May 23, 2011)

Coup De Grace said:


> In 6 months time, maybe even less, I think we'll look back and laugh that some were even questioning his status as one of the best in AEW.


We will see, people said that before AEW launched, now they are nearly a year old and he's been presented as "just another guy".


----------



## patpat (Feb 17, 2019)

reyfan said:


> We will see, people said that before AEW launched, now they are nearly a year old and he's been presented as "just another guy".


No, no one said this. The only thing people kept saying all over the internet was "kenny Omega should lose he can take this loss and this loss" 
Smarks couldnt figure shit.
And people need at least for the guy to be pushed before going all "omg it's a failure". This is just stupid jumping around when the guy is clearly doing a slow climb


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

patpat said:


> No, no one said this. The only thing people kept saying all over the internet was "kenny Omega should lose he can take this loss and this loss"
> Smarks couldnt figure shit.
> And people need at least for the guy to be pushed before going all "omg it's a failure". This is just stupid jumping around when the guy is clearly doing a slow climb


No, they definitely did. And the story was that after the loss to Jericho, the story was _clearly_ going to be Omega beating everyone else until he got Jericho at Double or Nothing II and won the belt. It's slowly been downgraded and downgraded. 

And again, _why the slow burn?_ I've not heard one compelling or reasonable justification for this. Everyone is new to audiences at some point. That doesn't mean you break them down. Again, imagine if they did this with Shawn Michaels whilst simultaneously playing on hype that he is the"best wrestler in the world" and ranking him in the top five and putting belts on him. It doesn't make _any_ sense. Someone please give me a historical precedent or some sort of convincing arc that would explain the past year of wasting everybody's time and getting absolutely _no one_ over.


----------



## patpat (Feb 17, 2019)

The Wood said:


> No, they definitely did. And the story was that after the loss to Jericho, the story was _clearly_ going to be Omega beating everyone else until he got Jericho at Double or Nothing II and won the belt. It's slowly been downgraded and downgraded.
> 
> And again, _why the slow burn?_ I've not heard one compelling or reasonable justification for this. Everyone is new to audiences at some point. That doesn't mean you break them down. Again, imagine if they did this with Shawn Michaels whilst simultaneously playing on hype that he is the"best wrestler in the world" and ranking him in the top five and putting belts on him. It doesn't make _any_ sense. Someone please give me a historical precedent or some sort of convincing arc that would explain the past year of wasting everybody's time and getting absolutely _no one_ over.


I have seen no downgrade. Since 2020 he is slowly moving up. Whatever the reason for the slow burn is the guy alone knows. I do think the njpw run took a lot out of him more than people want to acknowledge and he spent most of 2019 adapting himself to tv wrestling which isnt the same.
What I know is that he hasnt took a pin since 2020 actually since december 2019 ( where he only took one because of page accidentally hitting him). This doesnt hurt omega, as he just need that one crazy performance they can bank on.
But it does make aew feel like a bit of a joke! Because for a product that hyped itself as an alternative. Their next ppv is headlined by mox ( dean Ambrose) vs Jericho, the matches are hager ( jack swagger ) vs Dustin ( goldust.). Meanwhile the biggest non-wwe names are most likely in a tag match. That on one hand looks bad! And the fact that they have the balls to call this ppv REVOLUTION is even more of a joke when your main event scene is made of wwe guys.

As for omega I simply think that the slow start and the "down booking" he received early is 1) because he likes to come from behind ( he warned people by saying in an interview straight after DON that being on top out of the gate was boring) and 2) most likely because they will give him a giant push so they can permit themselves to do this.
And I can clearly say ( and I am not a wwe fan) that has he gone to wwe by now they would have made him a MEGA STAR. This is undeniable. But aew is doing a long term story they have my benefit of the doubt. As for the downgrade I see nothing but internet geeks who go by the wind. In 2 weeks let's say he wins on dynamite after a classic and everyone will change their speech. So who cares.
What I cannot take seriously and find downright insulting is the whole "I took a backseat for the new generation and put them over" he said on his Q and A. Firstable he only lost against big names and already got one win back with pac and will most likely win the rubber. Secondly not a single younger guys could beat him. And finally he is the fucking tag champ, beating tag teams after tag teams even tho he isnt a tag wrestler and will drop the belts to the bucks. How is that putting over the new gen? He lost to no younger guy because they know he isnt enough of a star to put anyone over in any significant way. And in the same Q and A he basically confirms that he will be back in the main event scene and will be a prominent part of the show as time goes. Dont fucking insult people's intelligence with the bullshit. And I like the guy
As for aew they better successfully push the dude because I can say with no doubt wwe would have made this guy a shawn Micheal-sque megastar, so if they fail this says a lot about them and their statue as an """""""":alternative"""""""
I absolutely agrees that no one was put over. Every single one of his loss plays into his own story. Jericho they are 1-1 , mox he said himself they will fight a lot again and it's clearly a part of his story arc. Pac same and the story is ending soon. I would have liked a more sincere answer about getting used to the us system, or trying to get used to the atmosphere instead of whatever bullshit people keep spewing about backseats. 
He didnt took a backseat for the rest of the roster, he took one because it's a good way to shock the audience and look better than normally when he breaks through. So yes 2019 with omega was a waste of everyone's time and only setup for things to come
You make the same point as me. The guy never left the top five ONCE, even now I know you don't have time. But listen to commentary during his matches he lost they keep coping to justify the defeat and still says "he is the best normally" so yeah......the whole "broken down" omega is a bit of a lol


----------



## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

The Wood said:


> I don’t understand _how_ people can think this is a storyline. Is he booking himself under or putting others over? Is he deliberately being shit or is he being protected? Is he a tag team guy or a singles? Why do you need to squint and apply head canon to come up with anything resembling a story.
> 
> If the logic is that Omega isn’t star enough in the US, so you can’t push him, how can it be expected that people cling onto all these “nuances” in his story.
> 
> Occam’s razor: Omega doesn’t know how to book. He is 36 years old, his best matches are behind him and were New Japan productions that didn’t expose him too much.


The story line to make Omega a star would be similar to what WCW did with Hulk Hogan back in the day but obviously with the volume turned down. He comes out on the debut episode of AEW, confetti falls from the ceiling, JR going nuts about how huge of a deal he is in Japan and he's back to make it big on his home continent. "You've heard about five star matches? This man has achieved SIX!"

Someone interrupts and we're off to the races with a feud. Instead he quickly became just another guy.


----------



## patpat (Feb 17, 2019)

Chip Chipperson said:


> The story line to make Omega a star would be similar to what WCW did with Hulk Hogan back in the day but obviously with the volume turned down. He comes out on the debut episode of AEW, confetti falls from the ceiling, JR going nuts about how huge of a deal he is in Japan and he's back to make it big on his home continent. "You've heard about five star matches? This man has achieved SIX!"
> 
> Someone interrupts and we're off to the races with a feud. Instead he quickly became just another guy.


Except omega isnt Hogan. And introducing him with confetti and all the thing would have been ridiculous.
I have no issue with what they did so far really, I think the guy is just confident that when he starts to roll its gonna be wild. And it will be I have seen the dude's work since DDT and he is extremely charismatic. My issue is it would have been better to take a sincere approach. What he is doing isnt new. Taking the minimalistic approach to make the breakthrough standout( it comes down to even the gears he wears which is the same he never changes, he doesnt wear clothes that makes him standout.) All of that is a way to work so that when you actually go full cylinder and present yourself as a star the contrast between current Ko and the future ko is significant. It's not new he didnt invent it 
But spare us with the "Le selfless man giving his life for jesus" 
No you lost only 3 matches and sat waiting for your mega push where you will most likely beat everyone and their moms.
In fact right now the dude is tag champ beating other tag teams even tho he isnt introduced as a tag wrestler in aew.
Also whether people want to admit it or not a guy from njpw will have to adapt his style for weekly tv. Vince did the exact same thing they are doing with omega with AJ styles. Except when wwe did it, it was bad and everyone crucified them.


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

patpat said:


> I have seen no downgrade. Since 2020 he is slowly moving up. Whatever the reason for the slow burn is the guy alone knows. I do think the njpw run took a lot out of him more than people want to acknowledge and he spent most of 2019 adapting himself to tv wrestling which isnt the same.
> What I know is that he hasnt took a pin since 2020 actually since december 2019 ( where he only took one because of page accidentally hitting him). This doesnt hurt omega, as he just need that one crazy performance they can bank on.
> But it does make aew feel like a bit of a joke! Because for a product that hyped itself as an alternative. Their next ppv is headlined by mox ( dean Ambrose) vs Jericho, the matches are hager ( jack swagger ) vs Dustin ( goldust.). Meanwhile the biggest non-wwe names are most likely in a tag match. That on one hand looks bad! And the fact that they have the balls to call this ppv REVOLUTION is even more of a joke when your main event scene is made of wwe guys.
> 
> ...


Okay, you've tried, and my disagreements here are with them, not you. But that still doesn't work lol. Which you kind of say in there. Again, this is at them, not you. 

I don't care what is "boring" or not Omega. It's what makes sense and what is going to be beneficial to your promotion and wrestling. I don't even like Omega, but if you're going to present him as the best then _he needs to be the fucking best_. It's not that hard. Him making it hard because that's a "challenge" or whatever is fucking self-indulgent, arrogant and wrong. Especially when you are playing with such high stakes and there is no way you can surely know that you can do this, because you've never done it before. Omega has never booked. Now is not the time to get experimental. 

You say that he only lost to top guys? Well, why? If they're already stars to that audience, why do you need to make them? And if he's getting his wins back, why does he need to put them over in the first place? That's spinning your wheels and it is literally just chewing up time. It's a waste of whatever value Omega has it does nothing for the guys who beat him that he ultimately beats. And none of these losses has helped anyone anyway. 

There is just way too much head canon going on. People are making this out to be brilliant when it's really the start of a 100-stanza poem and you could cut out the first 96. Omega is refusing to kill his darlings _at absolute best_, and he deserves to be called out on that. It's redundant, wasteful and counterproductive. It's so fucking unnecessary and obtuse. You shouldn't have to write essays and bend over backwards to explain why your favorite in a promotion fucking sucks but won't in a few months -- "trust me." 



Chip Chipperson said:


> The story line to make Omega a star would be similar to what WCW did with Hulk Hogan back in the day but obviously with the volume turned down. He comes out on the debut episode of AEW, confetti falls from the ceiling, JR going nuts about how huge of a deal he is in Japan and he's back to make it big on his home continent. "You've heard about five star matches? This man has achieved SIX!"
> 
> Someone interrupts and we're off to the races with a feud. Instead he quickly became just another guy.


Bingo. If people don't know the guy, you know what else you could do? A fucking promo. That's pretty basic wrestling. 

"I spent years in Japan training in dojos and being forced to do every drill thrice because I was the foreigner. It made me stronger and more determined to be the best in the world. It sharpened me all my tools and I used them to get their IWGP Heavyweight Championship -- a goal that Hulk Hogan couldn't even achieve. Now I have signed with All Elite Wrestling and promise to give you fans, those who give us your time and your dedication, all of what made me the biggest star in wrestling you've never heard of. Well you've heard of me now. And you'll be hearing about me in the future. This is the start of a beautiful relationship. I'm Kenny Omega, and the pleasure is ours."

That tells you who he is, what he's done, puts it into context, explains why you should care, associates him with the promotion and clearly paints him as a babyface with a bit of an arrogant edge to him. It also taps into his weird "love spreading" kind of thing he wants to do. Then he goes out there and wins. Then he goes out there and wins again. Then he goes out there and wins again. Then you hear another promo. Then you see a video putting them all together. Then he goes out and wins on PPV. It's not fucking hard. 

Instead they choose to do six months of him being a shell of himself, whoever that "himself" was (if people don't know who he is when he shows up, how can they possibly follow this story?). Okay.


----------



## patpat (Feb 17, 2019)

The Wood said:


> Okay, you've tried, and my disagreements here are with them, not you. But that still doesn't work lol. Which you kind of say in there. Again, this is at them, not you.
> 
> I don't care what is "boring" or not Omega. It's what makes sense and what is going to be beneficial to your promotion and wrestling. I don't even like Omega, but if you're going to present him as the best then _he needs to be the fucking best_. It's not that hard. Him making it hard because that's a "challenge" or whatever is fucking self-indulgent, arrogant and wrong. Especially when you are playing with such high stakes and there is no way you can surely know that you can do this, because you've never done it before. Omega has never booked. Now is not the time to get experimental.
> 
> ...


Did you read what I said? Because your answer has nothing to do with what I said.
In fact i am not trying to explain anything or do any headcanon or justify anything because I dont give a shit tbh. And I literally says that in reality the loss put no one other and simply put the guy in a stagnating state. And I am not trying to explain you that "he sucks but wont suck in few months"
Clearly you need to reread what people write and carefully before replying.


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

patpat said:


> Did you read what I said? Because your answer has nothing to do with what I said.
> In fact i am not trying to explain anything or do any headcanon or justify anything because I dont give a shit tbh. And I literally says that in reality the loss put no one other and simply put the guy in a stagnating state. And I am not trying to explain you that "he sucks but wont suck in few months"
> Clearly you need to reread what people write and carefully before replying.


Yes, I did. You said "Whatever the reason for the slow burn is the guy alone knows." and "1) because he likes to come from behind ( he warned people by saying in an interview straight after DON that being on top out of the gate was boring)". That is what my points about not giving a shit about what Omega likes and why the slow-burn is a bad idea. And I agree with you about the rest, and I did throat-clear pointing out that my criticisms are at what AEW thinks they're doing and not what you are suggesting that they are doing (whether or not you agree with it). I agree with you that the philosophy presented behind it is completely full of shit. 

I am not arguing against you here -- I'm just pointing out that it's such a mess that attempts at rational defenses don't make sense.


----------



## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

patpat said:


> Except omega isnt Hogan. And introducing him with confetti and all the thing would have been ridiculous.


Now here is the million dollar question. Why?

If I were a professional wrestling promoter at even the lowest level I'd make my biggest star seem like a star. It could be Joe Bazooka the local independent guy who is a regional star at best but I'd make him out to be a massive deal. Why? Because the 50-60 people that come out to my local independent could be _gasp_ worked into thinking he's a bigger deal than he actually is. I'd mention him being a 10 time Ohio Heavyweight Champion, mention that he's gone toe to toe with former WWE stars, Impact stars, ROH stars etc. Anything he has done would be emphasised to make him seem like a star even if he isn't so that I could sell tickets.

If I somehow managed to land someone with name value even if it was someone who worked the WWE midcard such as...a Jon Heidenreich I'd make him out to be the second coming of Hulk Hogan. Come see the guy who Paul Heyman personally scouted to go toe to toe with The Undertaker! Come see the guy that was handpicked by Road Warrior Animal to continue the Road Warrior legacy! Come see the former WWE Tag Team Champion! Nobody knows Heidenreich is a very average talent who had nothing but a look except the smarks.

I guarantee you on that debut episode of AEW with 1.3 million people watching (Or whatever it was) maybe 1/3rd actually knew that Omega isn't this big worldwide phenomenon. If he came out with confetti, JR going mental about how he's quite possibly the greatest in ring wrestler of all time, how he's a huge coup for AEW and American wrestling as a whole and list off all his achievements whilst Omega comes down to ringside dressed like a star oozing that charisma that even you say he has an abundance of and he cuts an A+ promo about how he's here in AEW and rah rah rah (Similar promo to what The Wood pointed out would've been great) and then is interrupted by another star and you could convince 2/3rd's that he's a star and the 1/3rd would go with it because it's Kenny and they love him.

Something that is ridiculous to you might not be ridiculous to the general public.


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

There's absolutely nothing ridiculous about debuting Kenny Omega to fanfare. He's supposed to be a big star and you're paying second figures to the guy and have made him an Executive Vice President of your company. These should all be for reasons. I think it's because Tony Khan overestimates him, but if you truly believe he's a star, present him as a star. It's really that simple.


----------



## NXT Only (Apr 3, 2016)

I prefer the slow burn for Kenny and giving him some motivation and something to chase. This will be epic when the time comes and he runs through everyone with the crowd behind him waiting for him to get the title. Remember the chase is far more valuable than the win in terms lf
Building someone up.

AEW essentially have Omega a ceiling to reach rather than blowing through his potential early. His reign both as a heel and face, whichever comes first, should be epic.


----------



## TD Stinger (May 9, 2012)

I don't know if what's happening with Kenny is a "slow burn". It looked like that at first. Kenny lost to Jericho, PAC, and then Mox. It looked like he was going for a character shift. It looked like he was in for a big change. But then it felt like that big change went to Hangman and now Kenny has become more of a supporting player in Hangman's story.

Look, there is a good chance Kenny will end up in the DON or All Out title match. But right now character wise he feels miles away from that. I've heard people talk about a redemption story but at the same time he's a champion right now. And even a guy who beat him, PAC, he's had more success than him so far in AEW.

So time will tell if this "slow burn" or "redemption story" actually ends up working.


----------



## yeahbaby! (Jan 27, 2014)

Yes has for me, based on the big matches I saw him in with New Japan. I think the more hard style wrestling focused promotion was better suited for him.

In AEW yes he's a great performer, athlete etc, but he lost heaps of big matches and then they seemed to push some angle that he was in a slump (JR kept going on and on about it), and then they had the whole thing where Kenny was disappointed in himself. But that seems to be completely dropped now. That did him no favours.

Also this is just a small detail but it's always bothered me how his tron video features him walking the busy streets of Tokyo with a backpack on. Who the fuck cares about that? He's a backpacker?


----------



## shandcraig (Mar 23, 2008)

patpat said:


> I still dont understand how people still question if it's a story or not.
> It's literally used in video packages, promos. Pac cutting his promo last week said exactly that omega hasnt been himself yada yada listen to the commentary in 2019 all the year they did nothing but explain how omega lost it and needs his confidence back.
> The whole show on January 1st was based around that idea and it was centered around omega.
> He hasnt taken a pin since the new year ( actually December, he got pinned but only because page hit him by accident). He is moving slowly pure surely towards the top but because its not "in your face" people wont notice.
> ...



exactly,Thats what i mean


----------



## The Raw Smackdown (Jan 8, 2017)

It's hard to argue that he hasn't honestly. But the question now is will he ever become the star that he was? Guess we'll see.


----------



## reyfan (May 23, 2011)

The Raw Smackdown said:


> It's hard to argue that he hasn't honestly. But the question now is will he ever become the star that he was? Guess we'll see.


Or maybe the question is was he ever really a star? Or just a star in Japan? 2 different audiences.


----------



## stevem20 (Jul 24, 2018)

Omega isn't a star though. He's a mid carder and that's exactly where he belongs.


----------



## Lethal Evans (Dec 18, 2013)

stevem20 said:


> Omega isn't a star though. He's a mid carder and that's exactly where he belongs.


Fuck off you troll.


----------



## The Raw Smackdown (Jan 8, 2017)

reyfan said:


> Or maybe the question is was he ever really a star? Or just a star in Japan? 2 different audiences.


Him being a star in Japan is what I meant obviously.......


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

Lethal Evans said:


> Fuck off you troll.


Not necessarily a troll comment. Omega is not a star to wide audiences and is working in the mid-carder. It’s also fair enough to believe he belongs there.


----------



## Fearless Viper (Apr 6, 2019)

The Wood said:


> Not necessarily a troll comment. Omega is not a star to wide audiences and is working in the mid-carder. It’s also fair enough to believe he belongs there.


Try telling that to 2016 WF at that time. Bunch of obnoxious marks.


----------



## Sbatenney (Jul 3, 2018)

Seriously, some people here who are saying oh it's a just a slow burn are the ones that likely got onto the WWE's back for not pushing their favorite star to the moon as soon as they debuted on the main roster. There are ways to do a slow burn and do it well but Omega didn't need it. 

Ask yourself one question if you think AEW hasn't waste Omega's star power, if the WWE had signed him and had him lost to Rollins, Reigns and Bryan in his first three major matches, would you be happy about that, would that just be a 'slow burn'?


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

The slow burn was stupid, but they’re making it work. I would have preferred the best wrestler alive from Day 1, but it’s cool. It has given Cody time to look like more of a big deal than typical midcard Cody, Ambrose looks like a superstar, Jericho was a great first champion, Jungle Boy and Darby got elevated via great showings vs the grizzled vet champ, etc. 

Kenny will likely end up right back where he was destined to be from the moment he signed, at the top, but I’m not sure the others would look as great.


----------



## patpat (Feb 17, 2019)

Sbatenney said:


> Seriously, some people here who are saying oh it's a just a slow burn are the ones that likely got onto the WWE's back for not pushing their favorite star to the moon as soon as they debuted on the main roster. There are ways to do a slow burn and do it well but Omega didn't need it.
> 
> Ask yourself one question if you think AEW hasn't waste Omega's star power, if the WWE had signed him and had him lost to Rollins, Reigns and Bryan in his first three major matches, would you be happy about that, would that just be a 'slow burn'?


People would have shat on it. Most likely me included because we are all biased towards wwe and they are the bad guys on internet, so we are all hypocrites to an extent.


----------



## volde (Apr 9, 2007)

Looking at AEW's wrestlers when they started Omega was clearly my favourite one even if I didn't really like his last year in NJPW. And sure, you can reheat him, but the problem now is that I'm not sure if I want him reheated? 

AEW, for the most part, are doing fine as they are now so its not like they need some fresh face at the top. Jericho, Moxley and Cody are doing good job as being main guys and I'd probably prefer Hangman getting singles push now as well.


----------



## TD Stinger (May 9, 2012)

Sbatenney said:


> Seriously, some people here who are saying oh it's a just a slow burn are the ones that likely got onto the WWE's back for not pushing their favorite star to the moon as soon as they debuted on the main roster. There are ways to do a slow burn and do it well but Omega didn't need it.
> 
> Ask yourself one question if you think AEW hasn't waste Omega's star power, if the WWE had signed him and had him lost to Rollins, Reigns and Bryan in his first three major matches, would you be happy about that, would that just be a 'slow burn'?


I get what you're saying, but I do think we should point out the differences between this happening in WWE and AEW. In WWE, he's the outsider going up against established talent that he's never worked with at this level including guys like Roman, Bryan, Seth, KO, etc. So yes, it would not look great if the hot newcomer constantly loss against the established talent.

In AEW, it's a lot different. It's a brand new company. And no one was really established yet except Jericho because, well, he's Jericho. And you can argue that every match he was in he should have lost. Jericho had to be their 1st champion. PAC needed a big win to stand out. Mox needed to be kept strong. And at the same time, they need to create big matches to sell cards but they also needed one of those big guys to bite the bullet and eat some of those pins. Omega just happened to be that guy. And like Volde said below me, with guys like Jericho, Mox, and Cody delivering and Hangman coming into his own, that wasn't the worst decision to make.

What I honestly hate more is the fact that it seems like they abandoned whatever story they were telling with him. During and after the Mox feud it seemed like they were teasing some big shift in Kenny's character, but it never really happened. Now he's a side piece in Hangman's story.

For everyone talking about a "redemption" story, that doesn't seem to be the story they are currently telling or acknowledging.



volde said:


> Looking at AEW's wrestlers when they started Omega was clearly my favourite one even if I didn't really like his last year in NJPW. And sure, you can reheat him, but the problem now is that I'm not sure if I want him reheated?
> 
> AEW, for the most part, are doing fine as they are now so its not like they need some fresh face at the top. Jericho, Moxley and Cody are doing good job as being main guys and I'd probably prefer Hangman getting singles push now as well.


If you would have told me a year ago that Hangman singles run sounds more interesting than an Omega singles run right now I would have laughed at you but that's how weird AEW has been.


----------



## Sbatenney (Jul 3, 2018)

TD Stinger said:


> I get what you're saying, but I do think we should point out the differences between this happening in WWE and AEW. In WWE, he's the outsider going up against established talent that he's never worked with at this level including guys like Roman, Bryan, Seth, KO, etc. So yes, it would not look great if the hot newcomer constantly loss against the established talent.
> 
> In AEW, it's a lot different. It's a brand new company. And no one was really established yet except Jericho because, well, he's Jericho. And you can argue that every match he was in he should have lost. Jericho had to be their 1st champion. PAC needed a big win to stand out. Mox needed to be kept strong. And at the same time, they need to create big matches to sell cards but they also needed one of those big guys to bite the bullet and eat some of those pins. Omega just happened to be that guy. And like Volde said below me, with guys like Jericho, Mox, and Cody delivering and Hangman coming into his own, that wasn't the worst decision to make.


Actually it's, as someone has pointed who even admitted he would do shit on the wwe for doing it, hypocritically. That is my point, people are letting AEW away with far too much, they had one of the hottest Wrestling talents about and have wasted him. Even if they do manage to get him back to the top(something I actually doubt now), they wasted a year. Here is a guy that has NOTHING to do with your main competition but instead of using him as your ace, you have him put over guys who are where they are today because of your main competition.

However I will point this in a better way for you, how many shit did TNA get for having ex WWE guys going over their own top talent like AJ Styles? That is what is happening to Omega right now, he was the biggest star they had, Bigger than Jericho but now he is just another midcard act.


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

Sbatenney said:


> Actually it's, as someone has pointed who even admitted he would do shit on the wwe for doing it, hypocritically. That is my point, people are letting AEW away with far too much, they had one of the hottest Wrestling talents about and have wasted him. Even if they do manage to get him back to the top(something I actually doubt now), they wasted a year. Here is a guy that has NOTHING to do with your main competition but instead of using him as your ace, you have him put over guys who are where they are today because of your main competition.
> 
> However I will point this in a better way for you, how many shit did TNA get for having ex WWE guys going over their own top talent like AJ Styles? That is what is happening to Omega right now, he was the biggest star they had, Bigger than Jericho but now he is just another midcard act.


That’s such an amazing post, except there’s no way that Omega is a bigger star than Jericho.

I think it’ll be Omega turning heel. I think he’ll turn on Page and go into business for himself, doing a stereotypical (and poorly acted out) arrogant heel gimmick. I can see him getting his own stable to go against The Elite.


----------



## Dizzie (Jun 22, 2019)

I think this tag team is doing wonder for both him and page at the moment, they are the best tag team in wrestling at present and have been putting some really entertaining matches.

I think this whole kenny/page situation is really going to truly re-ignite their aew careers and solidify them as main event guys.


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

The Page/Omega storyline is, IMO, the best thing in wrestling right now. This is a proper slow build. Page gets the immediate rub for the wins and shift in character, but it is Kenny’s underlying story that is really being told here.

In 6 months, maybe a year, we can look back at these moments in the tag matches and see they were laying the groundwork for Kenny’s triumphant return.


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

bdon said:


> The Page/Omega storyline is, IMO, the best thing in wrestling right now. This is a proper slow build. Page gets the immediate rub for the wins and shift in character, but it is Kenny’s underlying story that is really being told here.
> 
> In 6 months, maybe a year, we can look back at these moments in the tag matches and see they were laying the groundwork for Kenny’s triumphant return.


This is going to be so much fun to revisit.

For the record: I think Omega is going to turn on Page relatively soon, they’ll have a PPV match and Omega will win. But I don’t think it’s going to be anything other than a cliched wrestling story of the two partners who don’t get along finally clashing.


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

I just don’t see any reason why Omega has to turn “heel”. I see this being a story with lots of ambiguity from Page and the Bucks, but Kenny’s done nothing to suggest he is turning heel. Hell, he’s only wanted everyone to get along, which falls right in line with his character.

Now that isn’t to say one of the Bucks ducks out of the way of the Buckshot Lariat/V-Trigger combo resulting in Omega nailing Page, but that isn’t a “heel turn”. That’s a tool to give Page reason to think of Kenny as a “bad” guy, but the fans will know better and be forced into understanding and having to choose a favorite based on morality, which is not a staple in wrestling angles.


----------



## TD Stinger (May 9, 2012)

Sbatenney said:


> Actually it's, as someone has pointed who even admitted he would do shit on the wwe for doing it, hypocritically. That is my point, people are letting AEW away with far too much, they had one of the hottest Wrestling talents about and have wasted him. Even if they do manage to get him back to the top(something I actually doubt now), they wasted a year. Here is a guy that has NOTHING to do with your main competition but instead of using him as your ace, you have him put over guys who are where they are today because of your main competition.
> 
> However I will point this in a better way for you, how many shit did TNA get for having ex WWE guys going over their own top talent like AJ Styles? That is what is happening to Omega right now, he was the biggest star they had, Bigger than Jericho but now he is just another midcard act.


I mean, me personally I hate the mentality that Omega shouldn't lose to ex WWE guys just because they're ex WWE guys. Jericho had been working NJPW for a year before joining AEW. He's completely reinvented himself. He was the best choice to be their 1st Champion.

Moxley was the hottest free agent in a long time still in the prime of his career. Even PAC needed a strong win to matter more on the TV Show. That doesn't feel anywhere near the same to TNA where they brought in guys like Booker, Nash, Steiner, Sting, etc. and had them go over even though they were closer to the end of their careers or past their primes and they really hadn't re invented themselves (unless you count Joker Sting).

And I'm sorry, how was Omega "bigger than Jericho"? You said that in your last sentence, hows that even remotely true?

They haven't "wasted him" because he's lost those matches to those guys. The only way they've "wasted him" is teasing a character change only to abandon it to the point where the direction he could have taken coming out of those losses was dropped. And now he's a side piece in the Hangman story who feels like a bigger deal now.


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

If you think he’s a side attraction in Page’s story, then you’re not reading the book and just reading the Cliff’s Notes.


----------



## Rookie of the Year (Mar 26, 2015)

Kenny Omega doesn't feel as big as he did in NJPW, but I think he's talented enough to turn it around in a heartbeat. I remember feeling like Omega wasn't impressing in AEW early on (pre-Dynamite), but then he had that match with Cima which gave AEW audiences a glimpse of "The Best Bout Machine". All it takes is one real stand-out performance- like, say, the Ironman Match with Pac- for Kenny to look like one of the best in the world again.

Jericho vs. Omega III and Omega vs. Mox for the title are two big time PPV main events AEW has in the bank. Once the spotlight is put on Kenny in a main event role, he'll shine. There's a world of difference between going 40 minutes with Okada in the Tokyo Dome and being a tag champion on a weekly wrestling show. But Omega didn't somehow lose his ability to be an awesome pro wrestler.


----------



## RapShepard (Jun 20, 2014)

TD Stinger said:


> I mean, me personally I hate the mentality that Omega shouldn't lose to ex WWE guys just because they're ex WWE guys. Jericho had been working NJPW for a year before joining AEW. He's completely reinvented himself. He was the best choice to be their 1st Champion.
> 
> .


Jericho didn't reinvent himself getting a new wardrobe isn't a reinvention if you're playing the same cocky, but funny asshole you've been playing since 98.


----------



## Optikk is All Elite (Sep 5, 2007)

RapShepard said:


> Jericho didn't reinvent himself getting a new wardrobe isn't a reinvention if you're playing the same cocky, but funny asshole you've been playing since 98.


the funny thing is his serious character was the only time he truly reinvented himself. Otherwise he’s been doing the same shtick everywhere apart from Japan.


----------



## RapShepard (Jun 20, 2014)

optikk sucks said:


> the funny thing is his serious character was the only time he truly reinvented himself. Otherwise he’s been doing the same shtick everywhere apart from Japan.


Suit Jericho I agree was a reinvention. Everything else is just him getting new attire or a new catchphrase.


----------



## Optikk is All Elite (Sep 5, 2007)

RapShepard said:


> Suit Jericho I agree was a reinvention. Everything else is just him getting new attire or a new catchphrase.


Jerichos parody of Goldbergs entrance is in the same direction as Jerichos parody of Cody’s promo lol


----------



## reyfan (May 23, 2011)

If Jericho becoming an alcoholic is reinventing himself then Scott Hall must be a master of reinvention as well.


----------



## Optikk is All Elite (Sep 5, 2007)

reyfan said:


> If Jericho becoming an alcoholic is reinventing himself then Scott Hall must be a master of reinvention as well.


Do you mean hangman?

Jericho isn’t portraying an alcoholic.


----------



## RapShepard (Jun 20, 2014)

optikk sucks said:


> Do you mean hangman?
> 
> Jericho isn’t portraying an alcoholic.


I think he means real life alcoholic lol


----------



## TD Stinger (May 9, 2012)

RapShepard said:


> Jericho didn't reinvent himself getting a new wardrobe isn't a reinvention if you're playing the same cocky, but funny asshole you've been playing since 98.


OK, I know you and others have had this argument of what a reinvention actually means.

He changed up his look from where he was in WWE for years. He's added different aesthetics. His style is more violent as shown by his NJPW matches and jabbing a spike in Mox's eye.

I look at the last time he was a heel in WWE and he was mainly doing comedy shtick with Owens to what he's doing now and it's different. Are there similarities? Sure, he still acts goofy and funny at times, but he's still been able to change enough to remain relevant in wrestling.

If you don't want to call it a reinvention, fine. Call it evolving. Call it changing things up a bit. I don't really care either way. My original point of him being the best choice to be their 1st champion still stands.


----------



## RapShepard (Jun 20, 2014)

TD Stinger said:


> OK, I know you and others have had this argument of what a reinvention actually means.
> 
> He changed up his look from where he was in WWE for years. He's added different aesthetics. His style is more violent as shown by his NJPW matches and jabbing a spike in Mox's eye.
> 
> ...


What's more violent about him. I mean is it any more violent than throwing Michael through the insanely expensive Jeritron. Is it any more maliciously than beating up Punk and pouring alcohol on him. Outside of attire nothing is really new or different besides the brand it's done under. I mean hell he did a list skit forever. 

He's the same guy and I definitely disagree on him being the first champ. Should've been Omega. With Jericho doing something similar to Cody in having big non-title feuds.


----------



## reyfan (May 23, 2011)

optikk sucks said:


> Do you mean hangman?
> 
> Jericho isn’t portraying an alcoholic.


No he has become an alcoholic, hence the beer gut and barely able to move in the ring.


----------



## shandcraig (Mar 23, 2008)

All that matter is this story they have him building up to better fucking pay off or it was a waste to fuck him over. Im convinced it will work though.


----------



## TD Stinger (May 9, 2012)

RapShepard said:


> What's more violent about him. I mean is it any more violent than throwing Michael through the insanely expensive Jeritron. Is it any more maliciously than beating up Punk and pouring alcohol on him. Outside of attire nothing is really new or different besides the brand it's done under. I mean hell he did a list skit forever.
> 
> He's the same guy and I definitely disagree on him being the first champ. Should've been Omega. With Jericho doing something similar to Cody in having big non-title feuds.


What has Omega shown that proves to you he would have been a better 1st Champion? Hell, when he was in NJPW, he was 1000x more intriguing as the guy chasing the title then the guy who held the title. His title reign was ultimately underwhelming for something they built to for about 2 years. And when I compared him to a legend like Jericho, as great as Omega is, there is nothing I've seen that convinces me he would have been better a champion.

Yes, Jericho has done violent things in the past. I won't deny that. But I look at what he did in NJPW where he bloodied guys like Naito and Omega on a regular basis. The Jericho you're talking about from that time I remember being a much more cold and calculated character. Where the character I saw in NJPW was more unhinged than anything else. The only comparison are the violent acts themselves, but the circumstances around them are different.

And since coming to AEW, Jericho has kept some of that violent edge though that is toned down but at the same time has kept some of the comedic jackass elements of his character as well. You combine that with the way he's changed his look, the way hes leading his stable, it all looks and feels very different from where we last saw him in WWE which was basically as Kevin Owens's comedy sidekick.

You act as if because Jericho's done something remotely similar in the past, it's all just a rehash. When to me he's taken elements of his former character and has been able to change at the right times in his career to stay relevant. That's what he's doing now. Again, if you don't like the term reinvention for this scenario, that's fine, but I stand by the point I've made.


----------



## RapShepard (Jun 20, 2014)

TD Stinger said:


> What has Omega shown that proves to you he would have been a better 1st Champion? Hell, when he was in NJPW, he was 1000x more intriguing as the guy chasing the title then the guy who held the title. His title reign was ultimately underwhelming for something they built to for about 2 years. And when I compared him to a legend like Jericho, as great as Omega is, there is nothing I've seen that convinces me he would have been better a champion.
> 
> Yes, Jericho has done violent things in the past. I won't deny that. But I look at what he did in NJPW where he bloodied guys like Naito and Omega on a regular basis. The Jericho you're talking about from that time I remember being a much more cold and calculated character. Where the character I saw in NJPW was more unhinged than anything else. The only comparison are the violent acts themselves, but the circumstances around them are different.
> 
> ...


1. Omega should've been the guy to really live up to their new fresh talent talks. Jericho will draw names regardless as long as you don't have him as a lower card jobber. Folk tuning in for Jericho will watch him champion or not. You could've sold Kenny as this undiscovered great while also boasting names like Jericho and Moxley. 

2. When I think reinvention I think Husky Harris to Bray Wyatt. Zombie cult leader Taker to Biker Taker. Nothing Jericho has been doing is something you'd have never thought could come from the Jericho character. I could see a character growth argument, that's different from reinvention though


----------



## Sbatenney (Jul 3, 2018)

TD Stinger said:


> I mean, me personally I hate the mentality that Omega shouldn't lose to ex WWE guys just because they're ex WWE guys. Jericho had been working NJPW for a year before joining AEW. He's completely reinvented himself. He was the best choice to be their 1st Champion.
> 
> Moxley was the hottest free agent in a long time still in the prime of his career. Even PAC needed a strong win to matter more on the TV Show. That doesn't feel anywhere near the same to TNA where they brought in guys like Booker, Nash, Steiner, Sting, etc. and had them go over even though they were closer to the end of their careers or past their primes and they really hadn't re invented themselves (unless you count Joker Sting).
> 
> ...


I may have used the wrong word but can you honestly tell me that Omega wasn't the hottest star AEW got back when he signed up? I would argue that before AEW, Jericho seemed to be winding down his career. I am sorry but AEW Jericho is basically WWE List Jericho with a new coat of paint, that's not reinventing.

Okay you say that they had guys beat who are closer to the end then their prime, can you honestly tell me that Jericho isn't closer to the end and past his prime(still good but he is nowhere near where he was as prime Jericho.) Also I actually wasn't talking about those guys, I was talking about when guys like Angle, Christian, Team 3D joined TNA, those weren't past their prime.

I disagree, you strike when the iron is hot, Omega was the hottest star in the company when it started. There is no doubt about that, you make him look strong, build the brand around him. Having him beat guys like Jericho and PAC will get more fans who may not have paid attention to NJPW to sit up and see that this guy is the real deal. You are focusing purely on the die hard fans point of view, AEW won't grow much if they keep focusing on that.


----------



## MarkOfAllMarks (Apr 7, 2018)

The thing is when Kenny was in Japan he was completely 100% focused on his own wrestling career. He was more focused and more determined. Now that he is one of the founders of AEW he has a lot more to worry about besides his own career. He has put his own wrestling career on a back burner to focus on other priorities. I hope he goes back to just focusing being a wrestler.


----------



## Cult03 (Oct 31, 2016)

MarkOfAllMarks said:


> The thing is when Kenny was in Japan he was completely 100% focused on his own wrestling career. He was more focused and more determined. Now that he is one of the founders of AEW he has a lot more to worry about besides his own career. He has put his own wrestling career on a back burner to focus on other priorities. I hope he goes back to just focusing being a wrestler.


To me this sounds like an excuse because he didn't back himself to be big in America. Like, he didn't even try. It's almost CM Punk-like, showing that he doesn't care about what his fans want.


----------



## TD Stinger (May 9, 2012)

RapShepard said:


> 1. Omega should've been the guy to really live up to their new fresh talent talks. Jericho will draw names regardless as long as you don't have him as a lower card jobber. Folk tuning in for Jericho will watch him champion or not. You could've sold Kenny as this undiscovered great while also boasting names like Jericho and Moxley.
> 
> 2. When I think reinvention I think Husky Harris to Bray Wyatt. Zombie cult leader Taker to Biker Taker. Nothing Jericho has been doing is something you'd have never thought could come from the Jericho character. I could see a character growth argument, that's different from reinvention though


We could argue about our points of reinvention all day but I get your point.

With Jericho right now, he works best as their 1st Champion. As the top boss protected by his stable. A stable that wouldn't feel as big without the championship in it, while The Elite are in the name of the company. In my opinion he doesn't fit just being a guy like Cody who works with more of the unknowns. At least out of the gate, you should take full advantage of his star power.

And like I'll say below as well, there's nothing that Kenny has done since he won the IWGP Championship back in June 2018 to convince me that his run as champion would be more interesting than what Jericho is doing now.



Sbatenney said:


> I may have used the wrong word but can you honestly tell me that Omega wasn't the hottest star AEW got back when he signed up? I would argue that before AEW, Jericho seemed to be winding down his career. I am sorry but AEW Jericho is basically WWE List Jericho with a new coat of paint, that's not reinventing.
> 
> Okay you say that they had guys beat who are closer to the end then their prime, can you honestly tell me that Jericho isn't closer to the end and past his prime(still good but he is nowhere near where he was as prime Jericho.) Also I actually wasn't talking about those guys, I was talking about when guys like Angle, Christian, Team 3D joined TNA, those weren't past their prime.
> 
> I disagree, you strike when the iron is hot, Omega was the hottest star in the company when it started. There is no doubt about that, you make him look strong, build the brand around him. Having him beat guys like Jericho and PAC will get more fans who may not have paid attention to NJPW to sit up and see that this guy is the real deal. You are focusing purely on the die hard fans point of view, AEW won't grow much if they keep focusing on that.


Can I say that Omega wasn't the hottest star they signed when AEW started? Um, yeah I think I can. I mean at the end of the day, what's bigger. Kenny Omega going to the company we all pretty much knew he was going to or Chris Jericho signing with another American promotion after claiming he never would?

And if we want to talk about reinvention, Jericho feels like he as "reinvented" himself since his last big run in WWE while Kenny just feels like a shell of himself. Again, even if he had been the guy they gave the title to 1st, with his current character, would that be more interesting than what Jericho is doing now? To me it wouldn't be.

And like I said in another post, Kenny has been at his most interesting in his career chasing the title. His 2 year chase for the title was far more compelling and interesting than his actual title reign. And I'm focusing on a die hard fan perspective? I'm advocating that a legend like Jericho, the closest thing they have to a mainstream guy, should be their champion. Wouldn't that be the opposite of looking at it from a die hard perspective? I mean that would be like telling me that I only focus on the die hard perspective while saying I want Goldberg to beat Bray for the title.

And was Omega really the hottest star in the company by the time Double or Nothing happened? Was he that much bigger than Cody or Jericho or a debuting Mox? Not really, not to me. He was big enough to give others some big wins but compared to everyone else he wasn't their top guy to be champion. The problem is it seems like they stopped telling whatever story they were telling with him. They need to get back on that.


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

The Wood said:


> This is going to be so much fun to revisit.
> 
> For the record: I think Omega is going to turn on Page relatively soon, they’ll have a PPV match and Omega will win. But I don’t think it’s going to be anything other than a cliched wrestling story of the two partners who don’t get along finally clashing.


IMO, they’re building the company around Omega and Page. Yes, Cody is the most over babyface. Yes, Moxley is the guy with crossover appeal. Yes, Jericho is the one with the most name recognition.

But the more I’ve thought about it, they have bad Page pegged as a face of the company for some time, and Omega has always been the backbone with which the company would be built. I fully believe that his lackluster 2019 was to allow everyone else time to register as top dogs, because Khan is going to shove Omega to the fucking moon at an Okada-like win-loss pace.

Page being booked next to him gives them a built-in history in terms of their relationship, so that when Page grows into that superstar, you’ve got a Tanahashi/Okada-like dynamic of the old dog and new sheriff in town. Even in today’s BTE, they hinted at this with Omega asking Page why he was being a douche and pulling at his arms with the Bucks and Page responding that HE has been an ass and the Bucks never really did anything. He just knew the Bucks were the best tag team in the world, Cody best on mic, and Kenny best wrestler in the world, leaving Page a little insecure about his place.

And Kenny responded how he sees big, BIG things in Page’s future.

The best story in wrestling has been unfolding before our eyes for nearly a year and only began ramping up in 2020.


----------



## TKO Wrestling (Jun 26, 2018)

I think that they are building around Page & MJF but I do agree that Page is their long term choice as top babyface. And they appear to be correct in their thinking, the kid has unlimited potential.


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

MJF is a given as the top heel.

Kenny is the company’s Ace. Hangman is the heir to the throne as top babyface.

And Jungle Boy absolutely needs to be watched. They’ll be grooming him into a superstar over the next 5 years or so.


----------



## the_flock (Nov 23, 2016)

Could Kenny be the leader of the Dark Order?


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

the_flock said:


> Could Kenny be the leader of the Dark Order?


They “could” go that route, but Kenny is awful as a heel. It isn’t in his character, and that would be worse than just letting the group be God awful.

Khan ain’t putting his ace in that role, IMO.


----------



## Johnny Stakes (Feb 26, 2020)

Omega gives off that vibe to me like he is wrestling at like 30% of his full capacity, he knows it and he knows that we know it.

Feels like he could win us all back with one great match (hell his little sequence at the end there against the Lucha Bros got me hyped) which he hasn't had an opportunity to do in a while, that's why I am so excited for his match with PAC.


----------



## Johnny Stakes (Feb 26, 2020)

bdon said:


> They “could” go that route, but Kenny is awful as a heel. It isn’t in his character, and that would be worse than just letting the group be God awful.
> 
> Khan ain’t putting his ace in that role, IMO.


Agreed.

I didn't follow his entire run as the cleaner in NJPW so I can't say personally whether or not he is an awful heel but putting him in the Dark Order makes no sense.

I can see him as this entitled, cocky heel that thinks he is the greatest without even winning the championship title.


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

Johnny Stakes said:


> Omega gives off that vibe to me like he is wrestling at like 30% of his full capacity, he knows it and he knows that we know it.
> 
> Feels like he could win us all back with one great match (hell his little sequence at the end there against the Lucha Bros got me hyped) which he hasn't had an opportunity to do in a while, that's why I am so excited for his match with PAC.


Hey! Someone who pays attention!

They’ve been showing more and more glimpses of it each week. He wasn’t even landing the snap dragon that much in 2019, but in 2020, he’s had these flashes in each match of crazy, intense, high-energy Kenny where he starts doling our Snap Dragon after Snap Dragon. When SCU had he and Pagedead-to-rights in dual Dragonsleepers, it was Omega pulling out the intestinal fortitude to fight out of it and break up the sleepers. Just like it was Omega who dug deep to find the fight to kick out from Lucha Bros and steal the win.

These are all story-telling tools that hint at the return of the Best Bout Machine. And months ago, Kenny said he lost his mojo against Pac.

It would be far too WWE to hint at all of these things and not do the payoff, sending Omega back on the down slide.


----------



## Carter84 (Feb 4, 2018)

No as he has been to busy putting over other wrestlers, kenny will come good in aew, it's a sign of a decent person to actually put others over whilst concentrating on the women's division, after or when mox wins we will see him either turn heel or mox turns heel, one or the other as cody can't challenge for the title so it leaves the likes of Kenny, PAC, Pentagon ( hopefully gets a singles run) fenix, and hopefully hager, cage , archer the latter are gonna sign its just a case of when.

Peace.


----------



## rbl85 (Nov 21, 2017)

The thing is Omega is wrestling injured since november, he have a problem with one of his shoulder and one of his knee.

So if you feel like he do not wrestle at 100, it's not because he don't want to do it or because it's a plan, he just can't.


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

Suck. His. Dick.

WHAT A FUCKING BANGER!!!


----------



## Rookie of the Year (Mar 26, 2015)

Johnny Stakes said:


> Omega gives off that vibe to me like he is wrestling at like 30% of his full capacity, he knows it and he knows that we know it.
> 
> Feels like he could win us all back with one great match (hell his little sequence at the end there against the Lucha Bros got me hyped) which he hasn't had an opportunity to do in a while, that's why I am so excited for his match with PAC.


I've felt the same with Kenny for a while. He upped his game at All Out with Pac after Mox pulled out last minute, as well as the Lights Out match with Mox at Full Gear, but outside of those performances he's very much just coasting along.

Turns out the Pac match did exactly what you thought it would and what I hoped it would. Kenny Omega killed it for over 30 minutes on Dynamite in a heavily hyped match and just like that, he's a big deal again. It'll be interesting to see what happens at Revolution. Does Page turn on Kenny or are they stretching it out longer?


----------



## Prosper (Mar 25, 2015)

This thread is pretty much pointless now lol. Like I said in an earlier page in this thread, all it takes is one great match or one great angle to get anyone back on top. Tonight's Ironman match did just that. Its sports entertainment. You're not hot one day, then the next day you're the most over star in the wrestling business. Look at what happened with Becky and Moxley.


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

The One-Winged Angel remains the most protected finisher in all of wrestling. The way they sold the fear of each other’s finisher was a thing of beauty; they looked like two guys knowing if they eat the move, it’s done.

Just a work of fucking art that AEW just gave to fans for free.


----------



## patpat (Feb 17, 2019)

It took one match ? 
Aew about to push this guy in the single division as we speak....oh jesus this is gonna be painful for some..


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

patpat said:


> It took one match ?
> Aew about to push this guy in the single division as we speak....oh jesus this is gonna be painful for some..


And a thing of beauty for others.

BANG!!!!


----------



## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

Personal note of apology to your favourite who Kenny will crush in 2020

but ‘you asked for it’


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

LifeInCattleClass said:


> Personal note of apology to your favourite who Kenny will crush in 2020
> 
> but ‘you asked for it’


Omega and the rest of the EVPs probably long gamed this. It seems they actively chose to use the 1st year to let other guys at least establish themselves knowing that at any time they could pull the trigger on the Best Bout Machine.


----------



## I'mTheGreatest (Aug 3, 2019)

Page has over taken him.


----------



## AEWMoxley (May 26, 2019)

I'mTheGreatest said:


> Page has over taken him.


MJF has overtaken both.

MJF as champion after Moxley is what's best for business.


----------



## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

bdon said:


> Omega and the rest of the EVPs probably long gamed this. It seems they actively chose to use the 1st year to let other guys at least establish themselves knowing that at any time they could pull the trigger on the Best Bout Machine.


they know what they're doing ?‍♂

We're all too conditioned by WWE screwing our favourites - we want them to be mega straight away - but this way is better. No one in their right mind can say 'Kenny booked himself on top'

The story is perfect


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

Meet AEW's Kenny Omega: The World's Greatest Living Wrestling Artist


If you're looking for a glimpse of Kenny Omega 's greatness, there's no better place to start than his tope, a dive from the ring to the outside many wrestlers do. No one does it quite like Omega...




bleacherreport.com





"Without spoiling anything, sometimes you have to look deeper than where the spotlight's shining brightest at the moment. Because maybe the true story will reveal itself inside the story you think you're watching. We have big plans. We are trying to tell stories people can relate to."

From Omega’s own mouth. Everyone has been on this Page story when in reality as I’ve been saying for a while, they used this story to get Page over with the crowd, but this has felt like the Kenny Omega story unfolding the longer it’s went on, @imthegame19

They’re building something special here. MJF will be a made man as the top heel one day, and they’re building a relationship of common respect and admiration between Page and Omega not unlike a Tanahashi/Okada.


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

LifeInCattleClass said:


> they know what they're doing ?‍♂
> 
> We're all too conditioned by WWE screwing our favourites - we want them to be mega straight away - but this way is better. No one in their right mind can say 'Kenny booked himself on top'
> 
> The story is perfect


From the moment Page nailed Omega, and Omega didn’t do the typical wrestling thing of getting pissed and immediately hint at a turn, I’ve been hooked. It’s been the best story in all of wrestling from that moment forward.


----------



## Optikk is All Elite (Sep 5, 2007)

bdon said:


> Meet AEW's Kenny Omega: The World's Greatest Living Wrestling Artist
> 
> 
> If you're looking for a glimpse of Kenny Omega 's greatness, there's no better place to start than his tope, a dive from the ring to the outside many wrestlers do. No one does it quite like Omega...
> ...


long term storytelling :banderas


----------



## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

bdon said:


> From the moment Page nailed Omega, and Omega didn’t do the typical wrestling thing of getting pissed and immediately hint at a turn, I’ve been hooked. It’s been the best story in all of wrestling from that moment forward.


Yep... Cody knows how to book the singles stars    

Trying to get under your skin aside  - you're right - nobody knows Omega better than Omega - the guy is a storyteller

and him, Cody and the Bucks are all famously fans of long form storytelling

Small stuff can be hotshotted - but all the big stuff is planned


----------



## Aedubya (Jul 12, 2019)

The answer is no


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

LifeInCattleClass said:


> Yep... Cody knows how to book the singles stars
> 
> Trying to get under your skin aside  - you're right - nobody knows Omega better than Omega - the guy is a storyteller
> 
> ...


I’ve cooled on Cody trying to outshine anyone. He absolutely has some inferiority complexes based on his WWE and NJPW treatment, but I’ve come to the belief that they knew Kenny could throw out one or two bangers and send the wrestling community into a frenzy.

In knowing that and being confident with that, why would Khan, Cody, the Bucks and Kenny push it from jump street?

-Cody came into AEW hearing how no one viewed him like a star or main event guy, check, narrative changed.

-Jericho is too old, can’t be the top guy in 2020, and yet here we are wondering what a world with Jericho NOT as champ will look like: dude’s title reign feels like Hollywood Hogan in 1996 level good. At least for me.

-Moxley entered this fold concerned that Vince had destroyed his credibility. He even said he was legitimately worried how the fans would react to him showing up at random at DoN. They’ve made him seem like a modern day Rattlesnake.

-Page was “just a guy”. Now he’s someone fans want to see more of, see what he’ll do next, where his character arc is going. You can lump Darby, Sammy, Jungle Boy, Luchasaurus complete unknowns to TV audiences, and now they’re recognizable faces who people are invested in.



All of this happened within 6 months of TV. And now that people know these guys or have a new outlook on them, you’ve got Omega ramping up his match intensities, finally cuts a promo and answer to Pac, coming to the forefront of the Bucks/Page arguments with him being stuck in the middle as the “prize” of their attention, etc.

This company is built around Omega, but instead of just going full-bore with him at front and center, they’ve done a great job in establishing the world and characters around the protagonist.


----------



## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

bdon said:


> I’ve cooled on Cody trying to outshine anyone. He absolutely has some inferiority complexes based on his WWE and NJPW treatment, but I’ve come to the belief that they knew Kenny could throw out one or two bangers and send the wrestling community into a frenzy.
> 
> In knowing that and being confident with that, why would Khan, Cody, the Bucks and Kenny push it from jump street?
> 
> ...


very good take - I recommend you listen to the AEW unrestricted podcast with Mox and then with Cody

you nailed it with both Mox and Cody

Cody needed to put himself on a level with Jericho - not just for his sake, and the fans sake - he wanted Jericho to know it too

in the process he went to that upper level. Now when he builds someone up (Max) - it means something


----------



## Tigrotto (Aug 26, 2019)

He lost too many times at the beginning of the company and he lost a lot of starpower.
Now he is rebuilding his image.


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

Such a terrible draw. Not a star. Indy darling.


----------



## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

bdon said:


> View attachment 83324
> 
> Such a terrible draw. Not a star. Indy darling.


‘hE iS nOt A dRaW!’


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

bdon said:


> View attachment 83324
> 
> Such a terrible draw. Not a star. Indy darling.





bdon said:


> View attachment 83324
> 
> Such a terrible draw. Not a star. Indy darling.


How many people buy things from Ringside Collectibles? Is that website run by millionaires? Are we going to sit here and talk about Chyna and Pete Dunne being draws because they're in the top ten for this week where new figures launched and were probably bought by exactly the sort of people you imagine buying them?


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

When he fills up entire arenas, boosts ratings, actually sells a PPV and moves merchandise at a rate that people who don't know who don't follow wrestling religiously know who he is, then we're talking about a draw. But don't try and switch the goalposts on what that means. And yeah, that is a lofty task. It's not fucking easy and not everybody gets to do it.

Man, I really wish AEW would let me do my shit in their ring gimmick and that they put out an action figure of me so I could crack the top ten draws in wrestling, apparently.


----------



## looper007 (Dec 20, 2014)

Yeah all the diminishing, having two 3 MOTY's in two weeks, having the most interesting feud in pro wrestling right now, in a hot tag team. The guy's taking a backseat to help the company grow and he's knocked for it lol.


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

Lol, how is the company growing though? Those other points are all completely subjective. He's not interesting, he hasn't had any MOTY contenders and his tag team is a Russo special. How's that?


----------



## validreasoning (Jul 4, 2012)

According to Google Omegas most searches in the US took place during his NJPW run.

His peaks there are January 17 (Wrestlekingdom 11), January 18 (Wrestlekingdom 12), June 2018 (Dominion) and January 2019 (Wrestlekingdom 13) which is obviously the most interested people were in him by quite a distance.

His peak interest in AEW is late May 2019 (Double or Nothing)


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

validreasoning said:


> According to Google Omegas most searches in the US took place during his NJPW run.
> 
> His peaks there are January 17 (Wrestlekingdom 11), January 18 (Wrestlekingdom 12), June 2018 (Dominion) and January 2019 (Wrestlekingdom 13) which is obviously the most interested people were in him by quite a distance.
> 
> His peak interest in AEW is late May 2019 (Double or Nothing)


He's doing this on purpose, though. He's just biding his time.


----------



## Peerless (Aug 28, 2014)

The changes he's made to his entrance was much needed. He looks like a much bigger deal now.


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

Peerless said:


> The changes he's made to his entrance was much needed. He looks like a much bigger deal now.


It’s incredible, as an amateur magician, the ways in which wrestling can so easily manipulate the crowd. Kenny has a bland entrance, doesn’t do snap dragon suplexes and keeps having them blocked, losing, and wearing the same exact gear nightly? He’s lost it and doesn’t know how to get himself over.

Moxley walks Jericho down slowly, and in the trenches disguised by them getting Page over, you have Omega ramping up his offense and matches. You have Kenny wearing new gear for only the 3rd time (Sans Undertale Halloween episode and a 6-man match dressed like the Bucks), and a simple change in his entrance video? He’s a much bigger deal.

Comical how easily manipulated we the wrestling viewing audiences are.


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

bdon said:


> It’s incredible, as an amateur magician, the ways in which wrestling can so easily manipulate the crowd. Kenny has a bland entrance, doesn’t do snap dragon suplexes and keeps having them blocked, losing, and wearing the same exact gear nightly? He’s lost it and doesn’t know how to get himself over.
> 
> Moxley walks Jericho down slowly, and in the trenches disguised by them getting Page over, you have Omega ramping up his offense and matches. You have Kenny wearing new gear for only the 3rd time (Sans Undertale Halloween episode and a 6-man match dressed like the Bucks), and a simple change in his entrance video? He’s a much bigger deal.
> 
> Comical how easily manipulated we the wrestling viewing audiences are.


Wtf are you even talking about? No one has or will notice any of that shit other than you, bdon.


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

The Wood said:


> Wtf are you even talking about? No one has or will notice any of that shit other than you, bdon.


Those are story-telling devices that sway an audiences opinion of someone. Subconsciously, your mind notices that Kenny has the same ring attire always, the same bland entrance, etc.

He comes out against Pac in new attire, and the audience is being told this match is important. At Revolution, he comes out with the regular gear but an entirely new entrance, and as evidenced in @Peerless post, it make him seem bigger, more important.

You can view it through the prism of Cody if you wish. Or HHH with his next-level Mania entrances.

As an amateur magician, it is like wonderful sleight of hand. You lead the audience on a story you’re telling, and the moment one aspect of what they’ve been told changes, their entire perception of what they’ve been told changes.


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

bdon said:


> Those are story-telling devices that sway an audiences opinion of someone. Subconsciously, your mind notices that Kenny has the same ring attire always, the same bland entrance, etc.
> 
> He comes out against Pac in new attire, and the audience is being told this match is important. At Revolution, he comes out with the regular gear but an entirely new entrance, and as evidenced in @Peerless post, it make him seem bigger, more important.
> 
> ...


You're really stepping off the deep-end with this one. I did not notice Kenny had new gear. Why would I notice that if I don't pay that much attention to him because he's not that good and I don't care? You have to be obsessed with Omega to notice that for it to register. Plus, guys get ring attire all the time. I bet a bunch of guys has new gear on this show. I also didn't know he had a new entrance.

None of this means what you think it means, lol. You really want Omega to be something, and that's cute, but he's not that thing. Subliminal messaging is woo, and these signals Omega is apparently sending are too. He is less important to me today than he was yesterday.


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

That post isn’t so much about Omega, but the industry as a whole, @The Wood .

Pac, for instance, has been great and only has singles losses against Mox once, Page once, and Omega twice. Yet you put him in one match with Cassidy, and “they’ve totally disrespected him since coming to AEW” blah blah blah.

The mind and eyes can just so easily play tricks on each other.


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

Again, wtf are you talking about? You're making mountains here.


----------



## patpat (Feb 17, 2019)

bdon said:


> Those are story-telling devices that sway an audiences opinion of someone. Subconsciously, your mind notices that Kenny has the same ring attire always, the same bland entrance, etc.
> 
> He comes out against Pac in new attire, and the audience is being told this match is important. At Revolution, he comes out with the regular gear but an entirely new entrance, and as evidenced in @Peerless post, it make him seem bigger, more important.
> 
> ...


This, this is how you can make people think of you as a bigger deal by wearing new pants and adding stars to your titantron. It's so well done it's almost scary to think this guy never worked in the us scene, outstanding. 
On one podcast they were discussing about how the titantron of his entrance having a scene of him sad walking in tokyo had way more effect than they envisioned. You get lured into something and then when he switches it you have the illusion of a change


----------



## Carter84 (Feb 4, 2018)

If last week's match against PAC was anything to go off then hell no!! Guy's too busy putting over others and will always be in the talk about hei g one of the best in ring performers of his generation, why did PAC want the rubber match, because he knows that kenny is the man to beat or man to pull out that little something extra out of you during a match , the match in general was the best match I've had the pleasure to watch in aew and that's saying something asim huge lucha bros fan and there last match v the bucks the tables match was special, 

peace,.


----------



## Carter84 (Feb 4, 2018)

@bdon made a perfect point there same with @patpat both strong validated points in my eyes

I'm looking forward to seeing what lies ahead for kenny in terms of does he stay loyal to the bucks or will he turn on page?

Looking forward either way to Dynamite this week,

Peace.


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

The Wood said:


> Again, wtf are you talking about? You're making mountains here.


Well, I apologize that you don’t understand how story-telling works, man. How forcing the same gear onto TV every week plays a role in how someone is perceived. How wrestling half-heartedly and going through the motions as to not overshadow your opponent and others who are in more important storylines can play into your looking like just a midcard act.

Why don’t you go on and tell us, AGAIN, how all of these guys have had better matches than anything Kenny has done in 2 years? Pac iron man match and the Tag Title match basically took a shit on that notion, proving that when he wants to steal the show, it’s nothing for him to throw together the two best matches of the year on American soil.



@Carter84 : Omega and Page’s story is the most gripping angle in all of pro-wrestling right now. The two of them are proving to be masterful story-tellers with the unspoken verbiage, the body language, facial expressions, etc.

And based on the match at Revolution, Kenny has been really working with Page on his in-ring performances, which again suggests to me building a Tanahashi/Okada-like relationship between the two.


----------



## Carter84 (Feb 4, 2018)

@bdon 

Yeah man ur right there , page has really got over since he joined with kenny and now the future is looking good heading forward, I'm really intrigued to see where this goes and has lots of potential to be one of the best story lines we have witnessed in a long, long time

Peace .


----------



## TripleG (Dec 8, 2004)

Well the Iron Man Match and the Tag Title Match both happened in the same week, he won both, and they were two of the top ten (maybe five) best matches in AEW's short history. 

That's a good way to get Omega back on track.


----------



## patpat (Feb 17, 2019)

bdon said:


> Well, I apologize that you don’t understand how story-telling works, man. How forcing the same gear onto TV every week plays a role in how someone is perceived. How wrestling half-heartedly and going through the motions as to not overshadow your opponent and others who are in more important storylines can play into your looking like just a midcard act.
> 
> Why don’t you go on and tell us, AGAIN, how all of these guys have had better matches than anything Kenny has done in 2 years? Pac iron man match and the Tag Title match basically took a shit on that notion, proving that when he wants to steal the show, it’s nothing for him to throw together the two best matches of the year on American soil.
> 
> ...


This story is a mix of golden lovers, megapower and a bit of tanahashi okada that we might see appear more and more. If they dont fuck up and take their time and build it as I think they are going to. It might very well be a Goat story in the us.
A story that might go from the tag titles and transition fluidly into the world title scene. This is just amazing


----------



## V-Trigger (Jul 6, 2016)

lol


----------



## Tell it like it is (Jul 1, 2019)

No, us real pro wrestling fans know what's he about and who he is. Wrestlers like Moxley come and go but wrestlers like Omega, Okada, Styles well you get the picture, don't come often and are a special breed. That's why Kenny needs to say enough is enough and start dominating this year


----------



## Tell it like it is (Jul 1, 2019)

Also screw AEWMoxley talking about Omega's age like he's Ric Flair. Dude is the the most annoying user here.


----------



## AEWMoxley (May 26, 2019)

bdon said:


> As an amateur magician, it is like wonderful sleight of hand. You lead the audience on a story you’re telling, and the moment one aspect of what they’ve been told changes, their entire perception of what they’ve been told changes.


Kenny is definitely a magician. Every time he appears on TV, he makes tens of thousands of viewers just disappear.


----------



## Undertaker23RKO (Jun 11, 2011)

In a perfect world, he loses his feud with Hangman and it messes with head. I liked the redemption route they planned on taking him on but he hasn't really been doing that lately. Let him lose it for a while then complete the redemption story and have him beat Mox for the title in 6-9 months or so.


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

AEWMoxley said:


> Kenny is definitely a magician. Every time he appears on TV, he makes tens of thousands of viewers just disappear.


Portray him like a midcard act, and he’ll have a midcard rating.

How is this fucking difficult for you people to understand?

Better yet, to the pit you go, kid.


----------



## AEWMoxley (May 26, 2019)

bdon said:


> Portray him like a midcard act, and he’ll have a midcard rating.
> 
> How is this fucking difficult for you people to understand?
> 
> Better yet, to the pit you go, kid.


That was a great line, and if it was about anyone other than Omega, you would have appreciated it.


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

AEWMoxley said:


> That was a great line, and if it was about anyone other than Omega, you would have appreciated it.


No, I definitely laughed, but there is more to ratings than “he just can’t...”


----------



## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

How is this thread still going?

kenny’s proven his aura has not diminished in simply 2 matches

In fact, the story he’s weaving is next level


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

LifeInCattleClass said:


> How is this thread still going?
> 
> kenny’s proven his aura has not diminished in simply 2 matches
> 
> In fact, the story he’s weaving is next level


It is the best story in wrestling and not child-like. Deep stuff that requires thought and questioning morality.


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

bdon said:


> Well, I apologize that you don’t understand how story-telling works, man. How forcing the same gear onto TV every week plays a role in how someone is perceived. How wrestling half-heartedly and going through the motions as to not overshadow your opponent and others who are in more important storylines can play into your looking like just a midcard act.
> 
> Why don’t you go on and tell us, AGAIN, how all of these guys have had better matches than anything Kenny has done in 2 years? Pac iron man match and the Tag Title match basically took a shit on that notion, proving that when he wants to steal the show, it’s nothing for him to throw together the two best matches of the year on American soil.
> 
> ...


This is getting to DOTL levels of unreadable, so forgive me if I skim. 

I know how storytelling works just fine. That's why I keep asking you why Omega puts himself at the center of bad storytelling and why he is such a bad booker. New gear is pretty commonplace in wrestling. It's not fucking subtle, lol. And it only matters if you notice it. You have to already be hooked on Omega to notice or give a shit. He's preaching to the choir, which is not how you expand your fan-base.

Also, the way Omega acts actually does attempt to overshadow who he is out there with. You've bought into his humble outside the ring nice guy act. He's a show-pony and he devalues whoever he works with. Omega looks like a mid-card act because he's a mid-card act. There's no sleight of hand. He's been booked down. 



Tell it like it is said:


> No, us real pro wrestling fans know what's he about and who he is. Wrestlers like Moxley come and go but wrestlers like Omega, Okada, Styles well you get the picture, don't come often and are a special breed. That's why Kenny needs to say enough is enough and start dominating this year


This type of fandom is dangerous, folks. "Real pro wrestling fans." Yikes. 



Tell it like it is said:


> Also screw AEWMoxley talking about Omega's age like he's Ric Flair. Dude is the the most annoying user here.


Omega is 37 this year. For a dude doing the bullshit style he does, he's not going to be able to do it much longer. Hence my completely speculative theory that he's taking the cash and benefits from Tony Khan while he can, so he can milk the business for what it's worth before he moves into making wanky indie films about his life or whatever. 



AEWMoxley said:


> Kenny is definitely a magician. Every time he appears on TV, he makes tens of thousands of viewers just disappear.


That's more like it. 



bdon said:


> Portray him like a midcard act, and he’ll have a midcard rating.
> 
> How is this fucking difficult for you people to understand?
> 
> Better yet, to the pit you go, kid.


You're the one that seems to be struggling with him being portrayed as a mid-card act, bdon. And he's the fucking booker!


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

Rent.
Free.


----------



## Cult03 (Oct 31, 2016)

bdon said:


> Rent.
> Free.


Stop spamming and have an adult conversation, man.


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

Cult03 said:


> Stop spamming and have an adult conversation, man.


What purpose does it serve with the guy? Nothing is good, everything is shit, negative responses.

I’ve tried being logical, and it always boils down to him to talking at people, not with people. He doesn’t want to hear anyone’s opinions, just speaks to hear himself speak. Or type as the case may be.


----------



## LongPig666 (Mar 27, 2019)

AEWMoxley said:


> Kenny is definitely a magician. Every time he appears on TV, he makes tens of thousands of viewers just disappear.


Shame there not reappearing in NXT!


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

bdon said:


> What purpose does it serve with the guy? Nothing is good, everything is shit, negative responses.
> 
> I’ve tried being logical, and it always boils down to him to talking at people, not with people. He doesn’t want to hear anyone’s opinions, just speaks to hear himself speak. Or type as the case may be.


That's a cop-out. You see your own logic, but I don't agree. I'm sorry, but Kenny Omega getting new pants and losing the panned part of his intro does not make me think he's a genius planning some great rise. I think you're projecting HARD when it comes to this subject. I think Chavo Guerrero, Jr. got new tights for his WrestleMania XXIV match against Kane for the ECW Title. I guess he was gearing up to be a mega-star? 

When shit is good, I will call it good. I think Dustin Rhodes' selling is good. I think Pac is good, and I point that out all the time. I think Chris Jericho is a good performer, and I also point that out all the time.



LongPig666 said:


> Shame there not reappearing in NXT!


The ratings between NXT and AEW are, at worst, a cunt hair apart.


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

So, you don’t find him getting new gear and changing his intro when he starts pushing 110 mph in the ring and not holding back anymore, having boring, methodical matches where he works at the pace of his dance partner a coincedence?

You’re fucking clueless to human psychology, man.

And this is me bidding you farewell. I’m done trying to discuss anything with you, as you prove time and time again that you don’t want to hear anyone’s thoughts. You just want to fucking talk to hear yourself talk.

Growth is achieved through seeing other’s perspective. Learn it, live it, love it. Or don’t. I couldn’t care less.


----------



## LongPig666 (Mar 27, 2019)

The Wood said:


> The ratings between NXT and AEW are, at worst, a cunt hair apart.


On average, this year, about 200K difference. That's a big cunt hair you have!

But that's not the point though. NXT is only ever getting those figures because it is following in AEW's wake. If NXT disappeared AEW would still get those numbers; vice versa, NXT would go back to its WWE network number.


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

LongPig666 said:


> On average, this year, about 200K difference. That's a big cunt hair you have!
> 
> But that's not the point though. NXT is only ever getting those figures because it is following in AEW's wake. If NXT disappeared AEW would still get those numbers; vice versa, NXT would go back to its WWE network number.


He didn’t hear you, but he’ll damn sure expect you to hear him.


----------



## LongPig666 (Mar 27, 2019)

bdon said:


> He didn’t hear you, but he’ll damn sure expect you to hear him.


Yeah! It will be the usual straw man, fantasy stuff he will respond with.


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

bdon said:


> So, you don’t find him getting new gear and changing his intro when he starts pushing 110 mph in the ring and not holding back anymore, having boring, methodical matches where he works at the pace of his dance partner a coincedence?
> 
> You’re fucking clueless to human psychology, man.
> 
> ...


Occam's razor would suggest that he was just having boring matches and got new ring gear. Do you honestly think it is reasonable to assume he did that on purpose? You're clueless to wrestling psychology. Why would you purposely be bad? You've still never come up with a good reason to explain that mess. 

I want to hear well-reasoned thoughts. Not mental gymnastics explaining how one of the most overrated wrestlers going today can do no wrong. 



LongPig666 said:


> On average, this year, about 200K difference. That's a big cunt hair you have!
> 
> But that's not the point though. NXT is only ever getting those figures because it is following in AEW's wake. If NXT disappeared AEW would still get those numbers; vice versa, NXT would go back to its WWE network number.


Not in television or Nielsen terms it's not. I don't know where you are pulling this hypothesis that NXT is only getting these numbers based on AEW. The people who watch NXT live are obviously choosing it over AEW. 



bdon said:


> He didn’t hear you, but he’ll damn sure expect you to hear him.


I don't expect LongPig666 to hear me at all. But lots of people reading this will.


----------



## patpat (Feb 17, 2019)

Undertaker23RKO said:


> In a perfect world, he loses his feud with Hangman and it messes with head. I liked the redemption route they planned on taking him on but he hasn't really been doing that lately. Let him lose it for a while then complete the redemption story and have him beat Mox for the title in 6-9 months or so.


This wont happen because we already saw "mental struggle" omega for at least one year. It would be shit and boring lmao 
And I dont see the guy losing any match in 2020 or taking any L in general. Seems like someone else took this spot...

@bdon stop talking to aewmoxley you are wasting your time. Omega us 36 that's everything but old and really stop wasting your time with this guy.


----------



## reyfan (May 23, 2011)

LongPig666 said:


> Shame there not reappearing in NXT!


It's because some people that were over WWE saw AEW has their last chance for a new pro wrestling company, if they don't like the product they probably tune out completely and watch Walking Dead or something.


----------



## Undertaker23RKO (Jun 11, 2011)

patpat said:


> This wont happen because we already saw "mental struggle" omega for at least one year. It would be shit and boring lmao
> And I dont see the guy losing any match in 2020 or taking any L in general. Seems like someone else took this spot...
> 
> @bdon stop talking to aewmoxley you are wasting your time. Omega us 36 that's everything but old and really stop wasting your time with this guy.


What? How has he had mental struggle for a year? That was part of his character for like a month.


----------



## AEWMoxley (May 26, 2019)

Undertaker23RKO said:


> What? How has he had mental struggle for a year? That was part of his character for like a month.


Omega fans have been the most entertaining part of this forum in the last week. Some of their posts have been absolute gems. From calling him a magician, to claiming he is the next Hulk Hogan, it's all been absolute gold.

I'm on the edge of my seat to see what they'll come up with next.


----------



## Undertaker23RKO (Jun 11, 2011)

AEWMoxley said:


> Omega fans have been the most entertaining part of this forum in the last week. Some of their posts have been absolute gems. From calling him a magician, to claiming he is the next Hulk Hogan, it's all been absolute gold.
> 
> I'm on the edge of my seat to see what they'll come up with next.


I don't know what this has to do with my post. Jon Moxley is my favorite wrestler on Earth and Kenny Omega is 2nd.


----------



## WeHateWrasslin (Feb 27, 2020)

Kenny Omega never had any star power lmao he's boring as hell


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

AEWMoxley said:


> Omega fans have been the most entertaining part of this forum in the last week. Some of their posts have been absolute gems. From calling him a magician, to claiming he is the next Hulk Hogan, it's all been absolute gold.
> 
> I'm on the edge of my seat to see what they'll come up with next.


You really don’t know how to read, do you? I said I was a magician, and that it was interesting to see how manipulative WRESTLING can be with slight changes to the narrative. That was not exclusive to Kenny Omega.

But that’s cool. It’s also been even more interesting watching the opposite: Moxley fans ONLY trying to shit on Omega, because they know where the story is going.


----------



## AEWMoxley (May 26, 2019)

bdon said:


> You really don’t know how to read, do you? I said I was a magician, and that it was interesting to see how manipulative WRESTLING can be with slight changes to the narrative. That was not exclusive to Kenny Omega.
> 
> But that’s cool. It’s also been even more interesting watching the opposite: Moxley fans ONLY trying to shit on Omega, because they know where the story is going.


I've been consistent for years, though. I was never a fan of Omega's work, even back when he was in NJPW and people on reddit would post videos of his.

The story will go where ever the fans demand. If Omega can finally start drawing, of course they will give him a push. Hell, I am sure they would have loved to have him as their first world champ, given how much the EVPs love him. However, they couldn't because it wasn't right for business.

If, however, MJF continues on this impressive upward trajectory, they will ride that wave all the way to the bank.


----------



## patpat (Feb 17, 2019)

Undertaker23RKO said:


> What? How has he had mental struggle for a year? That was part of his character for like a month.


Lmao they kept talking about it every single show of 2019 until he beat pac. That was part of his character for a long time, just that aew wont ever make him look too bad.


----------



## Undertaker23RKO (Jun 11, 2011)

patpat said:


> Lmao they kept talking about it every single show of 2019 until he beat pac. That was part of his character for a long time, just that aew wont ever make him look too bad.


The show started in October. He beat Pac in November.


----------



## Tell it like it is (Jul 1, 2019)

AEWMoxley said:


> I've been consistent for years, though. I was never a fan of Omega's work, even back when he was in NJPW and people on reddit would post videos of his.
> 
> The story will go where ever the fans demand. If Omega can finally start drawing, of course they will give him a push. Hell, I am sure they would have loved to have him as their first world champ, given how much the EVPs love him. However, they couldn't because it wasn't right for business.
> 
> If, however, MJF continues on this impressive upward trajectory, they will ride that wave all the way to the bank.


Dude, Moxley doesn't even know you exist or even cares about you. So idk if this is your gimmick of being a fanboy.Don't tell me you named your dog Moxley or heck even Ambrose?? I doubt you even watch him in njpw. You probably watched some clips and that's it. But seriously you're sounding like a broken record.


----------



## AEWMoxley (May 26, 2019)

Tell it like it is said:


> Dude, Moxley doesn't even know you exist or even cares about you. So idk if this is your gimmick of being a fanboy.Don't tell me you named your dog Moxley or heck even Ambrose?? I doubt you even watch him in njpw. You probably watched some clips and that's it. But seriously you're sounding like a broken record.


Are you feeling ok there, squirt? The post you are replying to makes no mention of Moxley.

You're right, I don't watch NJPW.


----------



## patpat (Feb 17, 2019)

Undertaker23RKO said:


> The show started in October. He beat Pac in November.


Yes since the beginning from October 2nd to pac vs omega ( in mid december actually) there was a story of omega being in a mental struggle. They would mention it on commentary all the time. But back then every segment was cody so I guess they couldnt expand too much on it. But yes as crazy as it sounde it's been done you can check.


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

If MJF DOES get a Mox match, then you have to put him over. Put the rocket on his back and let him run with it.

Which we all know ends with Cody getting his championship match and going over MJF.

Because...well because Cody.


----------



## Tell it like it is (Jul 1, 2019)

AEWMoxley said:


> Are you feeling ok there, squirt? The post you are replying to makes no mention of Moxley.
> 
> You're right, I don't watch NJPW.


Look i'm going be straight with you. According to you Moxley=Good Omega=Bad because one doesn't get as much viewers than the other. But do you have to bring that shit up everytime about how Omega and ratings. How about stop caring about ratings and watch the actual show ffs. If you don't like him because he's not your taste that's ok, just leave it at that.


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

bdon said:


> You really don’t know how to read, do you? I said I was a magician, and that it was interesting to see how manipulative WRESTLING can be with slight changes to the narrative. That was not exclusive to Kenny Omega.
> 
> But that’s cool. It’s also been even more interesting watching the opposite: Moxley fans ONLY trying to shit on Omega, because they know where the story is going.


No, the magician dig is appropriate. This has been hilarious. You say it’s not exclusive to Omega, but this is clearly a weird love session around him.

There are far more Moxley fans than Omega fans, so if Mox fans decide to dump on Omega, then he is done. 



Tell it like it is said:


> Dude, Moxley doesn't even know you exist or even cares about you. So idk if this is your gimmick of being a fanboy.Don't tell me you named your dog Moxley or heck even Ambrose?? I doubt you even watch him in njpw. You probably watched some clips and that's it. But seriously you're sounding like a broken record.


This is new territory for the boards.Wrestlers need to know you for you to like them.


----------



## TKO Wrestling (Jun 26, 2018)

bdon said:


> If MJF DOES get a Mox match, then you have to put him over. Put the rocket on his back and let him run with it.
> 
> Which we all know ends with Cody getting his championship match and going over MJF.
> 
> Because...well because Cody.


I think MJF should take his first loss at DoN2 vs Mox. Then you let him have a run with the new midcard belt and wait for the inevitable face turn. That is when you strap the rocket to him and watch him become what I predict will be the biggest star in the game in 2030.


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

Why are the Mox fans so insecure about Omega?


----------



## AEWMoxley (May 26, 2019)

Tell it like it is said:


> Look i'm going be straight with you. According to you Moxley=Good Omega=Bad because one doesn't get as much viewers than the other. But do you have to bring that shit up everytime about how Omega and ratings. How about stop caring about ratings and watch the actual show ffs. If you don't like him because he's not your taste that's ok, just leave it at that.


I bring it up mostly when appropriate. This is, after all, a business, and it should be run in order to maximize profit. Therefore, drawing power clearly matters.

Although recently it's been mostly brought up in good fun. Some people think Moxley is the worst wrestler on the planet. Some like him. Some think Omega is a god. Others don't. There's nothing wrong with some fun back and forth. There's no need to get offended.


----------



## Tell it like it is (Jul 1, 2019)

bdon said:


> Why are the Mox fans so insecure about Omega?


Off topic but Mox or should i say Ambrose fans have always been weird, even in his wwe days. Some have said they are fans because he's hot and not because of the wrestler. Also some obsess fans threatening Renee Young which is stupid. And other weird stuff


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

But no one, aside from the usual “everything AEW is bad” crowd has spoke badly of Moxley. I was concerned how they would use him without a faction, but last night suggests they will continue with Jericho and using Darby and other shenanigans to keep him hot.

I know match, match, match doesn’t draw as much segments and character-driven stuff, even when it is perfect. Moxley matches aren’t the most entertaining aspect of his character, so it was a concern.

You and other Mox fans went off the deep end about Kenny Omega, so again, not sure why Mox fans worry about Kenny Omega more than others. I assure you, I want all of these guys to be great, because AEW’s success means more than anything else.


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

But no one, aside from the usual “everything AEW is bad” crowd has spoke badly of Moxley. I was concerned how they would use him without a faction, but last night suggests they will continue with Jericho and using Darby and other shenanigans to keep him hot.

I know match, match, match doesn’t draw as much segments and character-driven stuff, even when it is perfect. Moxley matches aren’t the most entertaining aspect of his character, so it was a concern.

You and other Mox fans went off the deep end about Kenny Omega, so again, not sure why Mox fans worry about Kenny Omega more than others. I assure you, I want all of these guys to be great, because AEW’s success means more than anything else.


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

Tell it like it is said:


> Off topic but Mox or should i say Ambrose fans have always been weird, even in his wwe days. Some have said they are fans because he's hot and not because of the wrestler. Also some obsess fans threatening Renee Young which is stupid. And other weird stuff


Wait. This a shoot?

I didn’t watch wrestling. I knew who the guys were due to my nephew, and he’d keep me up to date with WWE shenanigans.

Some Mox fans were threatening Renee Young? Legit?

Jesus Christ. No wonder Moxley wasn’t associating with the fans on his entrances to the ring.


----------



## Tell it like it is (Jul 1, 2019)

bdon said:


> Wait. This a shoot?
> 
> I didn’t watch wrestling. I knew who the guys were due to my nephew, and he’d keep me up to date with WWE shenanigans.
> 
> ...


I was suprise too until i saw it on reddit, so i had to google it. There was also a We Hate Renee Young Facebook page but got delete it. I'm telling you man so many crazy fans.


----------



## AEWMoxley (May 26, 2019)

Tell it like it is said:


> I was suprise too until i saw it on reddit, so i had to google it. There was also a We Hate Renee Young Facebook page but got delete it. I'm telling you man so many crazy fans.


This is true. He's had a bunch of crazy teenage girl fans who would harass Renee when they first found out they were dating.

On the flip side, there are a ton of fat old bald dudes who post creepy shit to female wrestlers.

Wrestling fans can be weird.


----------



## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

bdon said:


> Wait. This a shoot?
> 
> I didn’t watch wrestling. I knew who the guys were due to my nephew, and he’d keep me up to date with WWE shenanigans.
> 
> ...


couple of years ago there was a ‘girl’ on here who had a legit life size Ambrose body pillow

so.... yeah.....


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

LifeInCattleClass said:


> couple of years ago there was a ‘girl’ on here who had a legit life size Ambrose body pillow
> 
> so.... yeah.....


Where’d you get this pillow, @AEWMoxley ?


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

AEWMoxley said:


> This is true. He's had a punch of crazy teenage girl fans who would harass Renee when they first found out they were dating.
> 
> On the flip side, there are a ton of fat old bald dudes who post creepy shit to female wrestlers.
> 
> Wrestling fans can be weird.


That is fucked.


----------



## patpat (Feb 17, 2019)

LifeInCattleClass said:


> couple of years ago there was a ‘girl’ on here who had a legit life size Ambrose body pillow
> 
> so.... yeah.....


I dont want to know what that pillow had to go through.....


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

bdon said:


> Why are the Mox fans so insecure about Omega?


They’re not. 



bdon said:


> But no one, aside from the usual “everything AEW is bad” crowd has spoke badly of Moxley. I was concerned how they would use him without a faction, but last night suggests they will continue with Jericho and using Darby and other shenanigans to keep him hot.
> 
> I know match, match, match doesn’t draw as much segments and character-driven stuff, even when it is perfect. Moxley matches aren’t the most entertaining aspect of his character, so it was a concern.
> 
> You and other Mox fans went off the deep end about Kenny Omega, so again, not sure why Mox fans worry about Kenny Omega more than others. I assure you, I want all of these guys to be great, because AEW’s success means more than anything else.


I don’t think you can talk about people going off the deep end when you talk about Omega getting new gear and losing the shittiest part of his intro as some sort of brilliant psychological move. 



AEWMoxley said:


> This is true. He's had a punch of crazy teenage girl fans who would harass Renee when they first found out they were dating.
> 
> On the flip side, there are a ton of fat old bald dudes who post creepy shit to female wrestlers.
> 
> Wrestling fans can be weird.


This might be true, but that says something about the charisma and appeal of Moxley.


----------



## AEWMoxley (May 26, 2019)

The Wood said:


> This might be true, but that says something about the charisma and appeal of Moxley.


Sure, but that's just fucking creepy any way you look at it. I'll never understand how anyone can be that obsessed with any celebrity, be it a wrestler, an actor, an athlete, etc.


----------



## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

patpat said:


> I dont want to know what that pillow had to go through.....


you mean... what went through the pillow


----------



## patpat (Feb 17, 2019)

LifeInCattleClass said:


> you mean... what went through the pillow


Please stop stooop 
???


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

For anyone with ten minutes spare, and can’t help but indulge in a bit of cringe, check out the preview video for In the Ring with Kenny Omega. Warning: If you hold the man in high esteem as a professional wrestler, it may bust a lot of myths for you, so tread lightly.

He is such a pretentious bag of twats. Everything Cornette has ever said about him is completely true.

The opening line is Omega bragging about not being trained. Hacky and tacky.


----------



## Cult03 (Oct 31, 2016)

The Wood said:


> For anyone with ten minutes spare, and can’t help but indulge in a bit of cringe, check out the preview video for In the Ring with Kenny Omega. Warning: If you hold the man in high esteem as a professional wrestler, it may bust a lot of myths for you, so tread lightly.
> 
> He is such a pretentious bag of twats. Everything Cornette has ever said about him is completely true.
> 
> The opening line is Omega bragging about not being trained. Hacky and tacky.


Wasn't he bitching about being in WWE's development and not being treated right? 

I just don't get why he always looks like shit when he shows up in AEW. He's their "Ace" but he dresses like a bum and I can't take him seriously as an athlete when he runs the way he does. I honestly don't even dislike the guy compared to The Bucks. But I'll let you know how I feel after I watch this. 

Meh, didn't make me think any differently. He's an odd dude and doesn't take the business seriously and that makes me not want to take him seriously.


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

He clearly doesn't understand, at its core, what wrestling is. Watching a ten minute clip of him trying to squeeze out a seminar was honestly more compelling than watching one of his matches.

He'll never be a star, by the way. And this pretty much confirms it. "It's supposed to look elegant." Um, no it's not. It's supposed to look like it hurts so that people who like violence can be hooked.


----------



## patpat (Feb 17, 2019)

Cult03 said:


> Wasn't he bitching about being in WWE's development and not being treated right?
> 
> I just don't get why he always looks like shit when he shows up in AEW. He's their "Ace" but he dresses like a bum and I can't take him seriously as an athlete when he runs the way he does. I honestly don't even dislike the guy compared to The Bucks. But I'll let you know how I feel after I watch this.
> 
> Meh, didn't make me think any differently. He's an odd dude and doesn't take the business seriously and that makes me not want to take him seriously.


Kenny omega bitching about wwe? 
The only thing I heard from him was that he was a wwf boy, that he loves vince who is by the way one of his favorite character ever and he actually agrees with the concept that wrestling is and should be sport entertainment.
The fact that for you a guy that wears shirts and pants is a "bum" or looks like "shit" is quite funny. Not everyone has this incessant need to compensate by doing everything over the top all the time.
And the whole thing about him looking like shit weirdly is only heard of on internet forums full of smarks and retard. Because i have talked to multiple people who attend the shows, in fact multiple people who attend the show talk about it here, and the biggest talking point is how he is over with fans and great to see live.
I have seen this dumb shit on Twitter actually and will never find It funny that people think wearing a shirt and pants when you arent booked for the show is bad.


----------



## Cult03 (Oct 31, 2016)

patpat said:


> Kenny omega bitching about wwe?
> The only thing I heard from him was that he was a wwf boy, that he loves vince who is by the way one of his favorite character ever and he actually agrees with the concept that wrestling is and should be sport entertainment.
> The fact that for you a guy that wears shirts and pants is a "bum" or looks like "shit" is quite funny. Not everyone has this incessant need to compensate by doing everything over the top all the time.
> And the whole thing about him looking like shit weirdly is only heard of on internet forums full of smarks and retard. Because i have talked to multiple people who attend the shows, in fact multiple people who attend the show talk about it here, and the biggest talking point is how he is over with fans and great to see live.
> I have seen this dumb shit on Twitter actually and will never find It funny that people think wearing a shirt and pants when you arent booked for the show is bad.


I didn't mean in that video as I hadn't watched it yet. But he's definitely bitched about them not treating him right when he was in developmental, where I have no doubt he had a proper coach telling him what to do properly. He just chose not to listen obviously.

This industry relies a lot on how the characters look and quite frankly I'm over sycophants excusing these guys attempting to change everything that made the industry what it is. If he can't look like an ace, then he won't ever be one. You're telling me the Elite don't over compensate? That's hilarious. Internet forums and Twitter are the only people who even know who Kenny Omega is, so of course you're hearing it on there, genius. Marko Stunt is over with the fans who attend AEW Dynamite and I imagine someone taking a shit in the ring would be too. That doesn't mean it's good at all, it just means the fans will cheer whatever shit AEW dishes up to them at this point because it's new and shiny and most of all, not WWE.


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

So, question for you, @Cult03 , as we tend to share similar thoughts on wrestling: why does JR love Omega as much as he does?

And I won’t lie: I had only heard of Omega a handful of times before AEW. I certainly wasn’t watching wrestling but a couple times year, mainly PPVs, some YouTube WWE clips to keep up to date when my nephew badgered me asking if I’d seen such and such.

So when a friend told me about Dynamite’s first episode airing, I couldn’t help but begin watching everyone and researching. I find Omega’s career compelling. I find his in-ring stuff absolutely amazing with the call backs to previous matches, showing the face or heel isn’t completely stupid and remembers, as if he had watched video to prepare. When he sets up for the snapdragon only to be met with an elbow and an opponent trying to get to the ropes, and he has this incredible way of acting as if he really caught some running away and is using his entire bodyweight to hold the runner. All stuff that I just find incredible in the sell.

What is it that JR and I am not seeing or being offended by that you maybe really dislike? Is it that he doesn’t come off as a tough guy in real life? That he doesn’t look like someone you’d be concerned with in a bar fight?

I’m not trying to be condescending. Just genuinely curious what the rub is.


----------



## Cult03 (Oct 31, 2016)

bdon said:


> So, question for you, @Cult03 , as we tend to share similar thoughts on wrestling: why does JR love Omega as much as he does?
> 
> And I won’t lie: I had only heard of Omega a handful of times before AEW. I certainly wasn’t watching wrestling but a couple times year, mainly PPVs, some YouTube WWE clips to keep up to date when my nephew badgered me asking if I’d seen such and such.
> 
> ...


Firstly, because he's paid to. I think Omega would be one person that JR would be obliged to put over no matter what. But I don't think it's the only reason. It's because potentially, he could be great.

In saying that, I absolutely do not think Omega is bad in the ring. I have watched him in NJPW for years and mostly enjoyed what he does and just like AEW, the things I point out is only because I want those things to stop and for them to get better. He can sell, he has good psychology especially if you've watched the matches he's had with the same opponents previously and understand the stories. He also has a great look when in the ring

Where I have a problem is Kenny with the mic and how he looks outside of the ring. People have stated numerous times that he's great on the mic but he absolutely is not. He's over rehearsed, corny and awkward as hell. But that's something that can easily be hidden with a manager or just by not letting him talk much. When the Elite stuff is done, have him build a streak and refer to himself as The Final Boss, where every single year a wrestler vies to challenge him at their biggest event and he carried them for half an hour to an hour. He could cut a promo in a dark room, sitting in a chair and say very little. But he would look important.

And the easiest way to make someone look like a star, have them dress like one. This doesn't necessarily mean give him a 10k suit (Cody and MJF already have that) but a leather jacket, or a Kenny Omega t-shirt sure as hell makes him look more important than a random pink polo shirt and slacks. Make him stand out, ALWAYS. 

For example, look at Hangman. Dude has embraced the Cowboy look and looks important every week. Jericho looks important too. Cody and MJF look like stars. Moxley looks like a badass. PAC walks around London in his underwear because he's tough and nobody is going to question it. Shit, even Orange Cassidy looks cool. You're not going to see Cody run out in a pink polo because he would look like shit if he did. To be perfectly honest, despite his dorkiness and querkiness he has a good look for a wrestler. He doesn't look too small to be taken seriously at all. He just looks messy and like he does not give a shit. And not in a good way unfortunately.


----------



## Jagaver (Aug 11, 2019)

I


The Wood said:


> For anyone with ten minutes spare, and can’t help but indulge in a bit of cringe, check out the preview video for In the Ring with Kenny Omega. Warning: If you hold the man in high esteem as a professional wrestler, it may bust a lot of myths for you, so tread lightly.
> 
> He is such a pretentious bag of twats. Everything Cornette has ever said about him is completely true.
> 
> The opening line is Omega bragging about not being trained. Hacky and tacky.


I just watched the first 5 minutes, I'm no Kenny fanboy but I have absolutely no idea what you're on about.


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

Cult03 said:


> Firstly, because he's paid to. I think Omega would be one person that JR would be obliged to put over no matter what. But I don't think it's the only reason. It's because potentially, he could be great.
> 
> In saying that, I absolutely do not think Omega is bad in the ring. I have watched him in NJPW for years and mostly enjoyed what he does and just like AEW, the things I point out is only because I want those things to stop and for them to get better. He can sell, he has good psychology especially if you've watched the matches he's had with the same opponents previously and understand the stories. He also has a great look when in the ring
> 
> ...


JR was a huge Omega fan before AEW ever existed, though. Stone Cold, Edge and Christian as well. So, I don’t buy that he’s just a shill.

But I can kind of see your point on the look outside the ring. He absolutely does not promote himself at all. I don’t think twice about how someone looks out of a ring, but I can see how someone just tuning will see him wearing a pink polo and gray slacks and think to themselves that he’s just another guy.

And even though some mocked it, the fact that he wears the same in-ring gear weekly is part of the package of holding him back for whatever reason. When he faced Pac, he has new ring gear. Next week by Page’s side, he’s back to the same gear as to not draw attention away from Page.

Appreciate the honesty, man.


----------



## p862011 (Jan 6, 2011)

AEW was stupid for not taking advantage of omega he was the most talked about free agent in pro wrestling in years and had tons of hype and for aew not to take advantage and strike the iron while its hot has really took alot of buzz and hype around kenny and now he just feels like another guy

a huge problem for me why kenny is lost in the schuffle is kenny omega in AEW has zero identity and no character he is just a guy in tights who wrestles good

you can describe cody,hangman,jericho,organge cassidy,ec. because they have characters and identities


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

Cult03 said:


> I didn't mean in that video as I hadn't watched it yet. But he's definitely bitched about them not treating him right when he was in developmental, where I have no doubt he had a proper coach telling him what to do properly. He just chose not to listen obviously.
> 
> This industry relies a lot on how the characters look and quite frankly I'm over sycophants excusing these guys attempting to change everything that made the industry what it is. If he can't look like an ace, then he won't ever be one. You're telling me the Elite don't over compensate? That's hilarious. Internet forums and Twitter are the only people who even know who Kenny Omega is, so of course you're hearing it on there, genius. Marko Stunt is over with the fans who attend AEW Dynamite and I imagine someone taking a shit in the ring would be too. That doesn't mean it's good at all, it just means the fans will cheer whatever shit AEW dishes up to them at this point because it's new and shiny and most of all, not WWE.


That second paragraph is ace. I've used the shit analogy before too, and Cornette even whipped it out on a recent podcast, which was pretty funny to hear. People really need to get past the idea that what this crowd cheers is "over." They're basically all baby WrestleMania cards. That's a problem, not the solution. 

Also, I find them trying to change what has worked for decades, probably even longer when you boil it to its core, really arrogant and, honestly, disrespectful. There's this thing about them being really nice guys (which is more and more being strongly contrasted -- some will suggest that they were just working the PWG marks), but they've completely and selfishly shat on the hard work of people who would often lie to their _families_ for a business that would pay them a living even if they weren't on top. I don't really have time for people thinking they "sound like nice guys." They don't really give a shit about anyone but themselves. That's where this idea of "Killing the Business" comes from. They get themselves "over" with a few of the geeks who are still around so _they_ get to move merch and _they_ get accolades, while people trying to do things sensibly can't possibly get over because the whole thing's been blown up. 

It'd be like if I took over every independent film company in the world and I made sure that the only thing they ever made was porn. Actors and actresses that wanted to make money using their actual acting abilities would be up the creek. 



bdon said:


> So, question for you, @Cult03 , as we tend to share similar thoughts on wrestling: why does JR love Omega as much as he does?
> 
> And I won’t lie: I had only heard of Omega a handful of times before AEW. I certainly wasn’t watching wrestling but a couple times year, mainly PPVs, some YouTube WWE clips to keep up to date when my nephew badgered me asking if I’d seen such and such.
> 
> ...


Does he? JR sounds pretty dissatisfied with his job. I tend to skip Kenny Omega matches though, so maybe he does gush over him. I imagine that's the mandate in front of him. The whole gimmick of AEW, when it comes to guys like Omega and The Bucks is "THEY'RE THE BEST!" So you've got those beats laid out there in front of you. I mean, doesn't JR also compare The Young Bucks to The Rock 'n' Roll sometimes? You hear him go off on tangents about his favorite teams from the past and matches he'd rather be watching when they're on. He might do the same about Kenny Omega. 

This is the guy who tried to put over Billy Gunn as the best pound-for-pound athlete in the WWF. And yeah, someone that's obsessed with me is going to say "Hang on! Didn't you say that JR refuses to peddle bullshit." The guy does his job, there are just certain lines of credibility he is not going to cross. He's not going to actively shit on his bosses, lol. But if someone says "Joey Janela looks ripped!" he's going to chime back "Well, he looks better than he used to" or something. He's a wise-ass, not a stubborn mule.

I imagine JR would absolutely hate Omega shitting on the idea of wrestling training too. It sounds like he echoes many of the sentiments Cornette does. He just wants to be on the air still and get that dirty Khan money.


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

The Wood said:


> That second paragraph is ace. I've used the shit analogy before too, and Cornette even whipped it out on a recent podcast, which was pretty funny to hear. People really need to get past the idea that what this crowd cheers is "over." They're basically all baby WrestleMania cards. That's a problem, not the solution.
> 
> Also, I find them trying to change what has worked for decades, probably even longer when you boil it to its core, really arrogant and, honestly, disrespectful. There's this thing about them being really nice guys (which is more and more being strongly contrasted -- some will suggest that they were just working the PWG marks), but they've completely and selfishly shat on the hard work of people who would often lie to their _families_ for a business that would pay them a living even if they weren't on top. I don't really have time for people thinking they "sound like nice guys." They don't really give a shit about anyone but themselves. That's where this idea of "Killing the Business" comes from. They get themselves "over" with a few of the geeks who are still around so _they_ get to move merch and _they_ get accolades, while people trying to do things sensibly can't possibly get over because the whole thing's been blown up.
> 
> ...


And that fails to take into consideration that JR was gushing about Omega way before any of AEW was a consideration. He was on Stone Cold’s podcast raving about the guy needing to jump to WWE


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

Probably to get some proper training. Steve Austin has also gushed about the guy, but Austin would have in no way, shape or form touched the guy when he was active. Way too much toll on the neck doing his shit, way too unbelievable, his silly facial expressions, his size, his work, etc.

A lot of those podcasts are from places like Podcast One or the like. I don't know much about that end of the podcast world, but I assume they have targets, etc. Austin, Jericho and to a lesser extent, JR, all seem to want to be the Joe Rogan of wrestling podcasting. They listen to everything and everything is pretty damn awesome. There's very little actual criticism from them. JR will say things like "I think the guys could use some slowing down" in a coach-like way, but he won't flat-out say "such and such sucks." I don't listen to their podcasts for that very reason. It's inauthentic radio-host garbage. Vince fucking Russo gets on there and while I haven't listened, I bet JR didn't say "Remember that time you wrote those shitty fucking stories, I called you on it, then you constantly tried to get me fired. Then Steve Austin got pissed at you and shot down all your shit and you left to WCW like a weasel and publicly mocked my disease during a hard period of my life?" He probably says something like "You were a talented kid. You put a lot of hard work in. We had out differences, heh, heh, but you were always good to people I know." (shudder)

Like, Kenny Omega cannot throw a punch. Can we all agree on that? Let's not talk about the relevance of that in 2020. Some people will say that doesn't matter, kayfabe's dead, it's all fake, who cares if he can do a tope con hilo like everyone else. I think that matters, but put that to the side for one second. Let's just broach the fact that his working punches are the drizzling shits. Do we agree? If we do, then can we also agree that Jim Ross's primary education in wrestling was Mid-South Wrestling? Kenny Omega would have not made it one week in that territory. Not one. And for those who don't know, when it was on TBS, it outdrew the WWF. But anyway -- Omega does not fit JR's template of what a wrestler is. Can we agree on that? JR believes fundamentals are important and that the thing should look real. We're not in major any disagreement there? 

Occam's razor suggests money. As JR says. "I was a capitalist." I'm sure he still is. He did just sign the largest announcer deal ever. Would he have gotten that if he was saying the top gaijin in New Japan had shitty fundamentals? By the way, was he working for New Japan at the time? And I know he was _technically_ signed to AXS. Yeesh, he was calling a New Japan product. Was he doing that or was he a completely free agent?


----------



## Jagaver (Aug 11, 2019)

The Wood said:


> Probably to get some proper training. Steve Austin has also gushed about the guy, but Austin would have in no way, shape or form touched the guy when he was active. Way too much toll on the neck doing his shit, way too unbelievable, his silly facial expressions, his size, his work, etc.


We are talking about the same Austin who worked with The Rock, right?


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

The same Rock who threw shitty fucking slap punches.


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

Oh, if The Rock did it, then anyone can. Nothing special about that guy at all. The Rock was a far better worker two years into the business at 26 than Omega is 20 years in at 36, and that's pretty indisputable.


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

I take it all back, guys, All six feet and 230lbs of Kenny Omega can do whatever the hell he wants in the ring because...The Rock. Seems logical. I'm sure Austin would have loved to have taken a baby dragon suplex.


----------



## Jagaver (Aug 11, 2019)

You're the one who mentioned silly facial expressions... https://www.themix.net/files/2019/02/the-rock-raises-the-peoples-eyebrow-1280x720.jpg
and unbelievable shit.... 




I'm just trying to highlight the ridiculousness of your argument. You are saying that Steve Austin, who is on record praising Omega, wouldn't have worked with Omega because of his silly facial expressions and unbelievable shit, despite the fact that the guy who Austin was working with for some of his greatest moments was all about the silly facial expressions and unbelievable shit.

Whatever man, you're insane.


----------



## AEWMoxley (May 26, 2019)

Why are we comparing one of the GOATs to Kenny Omega?


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

Jagaver said:


> You're the one who mentioned silly facial expressions... https://www.themix.net/files/2019/02/the-rock-raises-the-peoples-eyebrow-1280x720.jpg
> and unbelievable shit....
> 
> 
> ...


You are calling me insane when you are comparing *The Rock* to _Kenny Omega_? One man walks into an arena and the floor gets wet, the other couldn't flood it if he were handing out copies of Fifty Shades of Gray to an arena full of single moms. The Rock's expressions and wrestling style were hammy, yes. He is also one of the most charismatic entities in the history of the world, is a 6'5, 275lbs third generation super-athlete. 

Kenny Omega is a 6'0, 230lbs admittedly athletic pantomime performer. I honestly don't think he'd be genuinely compelling in person enough to keep children entertained with sock puppets on his hands. 

So yes, got me -- fair comparison. If The Rock is anywhere, Kenny Omega disappears in a heartbeat. His own mother wouldn't see him. And The Rock did more with one eyebrow than Omega has done with 60 six-star matches. Gee whiz, I wonder who Steve Austin would have worked with? 

And I fucking _said_ that Austin has praised him. I just pointed out why it is pop-radio bullshit. If Omega was around in the Attitude era, do you really think Austin would have sold for him? He didn't fucking work with Jeff Jarrett or Billy Gunn and didn't want to work with _Triple H_. He says that on his podcast to get modern wrestling fans to clap like trained seals and think he's tuned in. I wonder how much New Japan Steve Austin really watches? I'm sure he thinks he's a gifted athlete, like anyone who sees him clearly does, but no, he wouldn't have fucking worked with him. Get the fuck out, lol. 

Omega didn't cut it in DSW, by the way.



AEWMoxley said:


> Why are we comparing one of the GOATs to Kenny Omega?


Because The Rock's punches weren't Pat Patterson's or Jerry Lawler's, it is a necessity that Kenny Omega be excused for flawed fundamentals. Because false equivocacies are en vogue.


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

Everything comes with a fucking caveat with you.


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

bdon said:


> Everything comes with a fucking caveat with you.


Life's full of them. The Rock is not Kenny fucking Omega. You don't get to just say "The Rock throws shitty punches" to justify Omega being shit.


----------



## Jagaver (Aug 11, 2019)

Oh I see. Silly facial expressions and unbelievable shit are fine if you're the Rock, but not if you're Kenny Omega.

And I also now understand that what I have to do is ignore what Steve Austin actually said, and instead I must listen to your opinion which is that he was lying when he said it. Got it.


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

I never claimed Omega to be as charismatic or anything. You jumped to that. You talked about shitty expressions and being a shit performer in-ring. Rock was unbelievable and would have beer bets on how stupid the Rock could make the Stunner. Guess he don’t respect the business either. What a piece of fucking shit.


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

The Wood said:


> Life's full of them. The Rock is not Kenny fucking Omega. You don't get to just say "The Rock throws shitty punches" to justify Omega being shit.


First time dealing with @The Wood , eh?

You’ll learn in time.


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

Jagaver said:


> Oh I see. Silly facial expressions and unbelievable shit are fine if you're the Rock, but not if you're Kenny Omega.
> 
> And I also now understand that what I have to do is ignore what Steve Austin actually said, and instead I must listen to your opinion which is that he was lying when he said it. Got it.


Yes, you're starting to get it. If Kenny Omega drew money, we'd have to make an exception for him too. And The Rock's was a lot more believable. Evidence: People believed in him. The Rock's faces were actually good. Drew people in to what he was doing. Omega contorts his face so it looks like he has worms. What Omega does is called "mugging." 

Have you never seen a fucking talk show? 



bdon said:


> I never claimed Omega to be as charismatic or anything. You jumped to that. You talked about shitty expressions and being a shit performer in-ring. Rock was unbelievable and would have beer bets on how stupid the Rock could make the Stunner. Guess he don’t respect the business either. What a piece of fucking shit.


You're fucking comparing him to *The Rock*. Of course charisma is going to matter. This conversation might just actually be the stupidest one I've had on these boards. No offense, bdon, but come on, man. 

Here you have The Rock...

Here you have Kenny Omega...


----------



## shandcraig (Mar 23, 2008)

I agree that it seems like they wasted his talent.But i also believe its because of a bigger picture. I feel AEW has big stories planned when the time is right and big factions and heel turns and i honestly see Kenny turning mega heal. There is no fucking way these guys are not acting super cute boys for a reason.I think they all plan on turning on Cody and going heel bullet club style.

Hell maybe im wrong but im sure kenny will be utilized in a big way sooner than later


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

Why does everyone want to turn Kenny heel? Nothing about his personality or in-ring character says he would make for a good, weekly American TV heel.

Cody would be a great heel. The Bucks would be a great heel. Page could be a g tweener.

Kenny is way too 60s babyface, personality-wise, to be a heel. Dude is utter garbage at self-promotion.


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

shandcraig said:


> I agree that it seems like they wasted his talent.But i also believe its because of a bigger picture. I feel AEW has big stories planned when the time is right and big factions and heel turns and i honestly see Kenny turning mega heal. There is no fucking way these guys are not acting super cute boys for a reason.I think they all plan on turning on Cody and going heel bullet club style.
> 
> Hell maybe im wrong but im sure kenny will be utilized in a big way sooner than later


I think this is likely. Omega turning is the only way a push makes any sense. I disagree that it will matter much. People are so desensitised to turns, it will just be talk of the internet bubble for a week and then he’ll be a heel like anyone else



bdon said:


> Why does everyone want to turn Kenny heel? Nothing about his personality or in-ring character says he would make for a good, weekly American TV heel.
> 
> Cody would be a great heel. The Bucks would be a great heel. Page could be a g tweener.
> 
> Kenny is way too 60s babyface, personality-wise, to be a heel. Dude is utter garbage at self-promotion.


What people want and what people expect are two different things. 

But if Kenny is going to be the one getting a push, then it only makes sense to turn him. Logic dictates that the person who turns is the one that will be getting the nod going forward. Otherwise, what is the turn for? If Page turns on him, for example, I mean, not only are the crowd going to be cheering Page for having a personality and being cooler, but you can’t beat him. Otherwise he’s done. Omega has to turn on Page and go all “I’m supposed to be the star!” so he can win and go into the main events and Page can continue being a mid-card face act until Page gets his turn in a year or whatever.

Omega is corny and uninspiring as a babyface and will probably be campy as a heel, but that’s what you get when you invest in guys who were never trained properly.


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## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

And that negates every bit of story-telling they’ve been doing for months. Going back as far as All Out with Page entering with The Bucks at his side, a staple of the Omega NJPW run. There’s a BTE episode that begins with a cartoon of someone playing with AEW action figures showing Kenny as the champ with Page challenging him, then the real Page “wakes up” and laughs about the possibility of he and Kenny feuding.

They’ve been building that relationship to a Kenny in the role of Tanahashi and Page in the role of Okada.

I don’t expect that to change. Even Revolution teased at a Mega Powers-like angle with Page giving Kenny a set of crazy eyes only the likes of Randy Savage could perform.

Their story is and has always been directly connected, and it just makes sense that while they may feud at some point, it doesn’t require anyone being a heel. 

Not saying they won’t go that direction, but it would be a 180 from the story they have been telling for over half a year.


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## ReekOfAwesomenesss (Apr 6, 2012)

I dunno who first linked the Mega Powers to this scenario but it will always sound dumb.


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## shandcraig (Mar 23, 2008)

The Wood said:


> I think this is likely. Omega turning is the only way a push makes any sense. I disagree that it will matter much. People are so desensitised to turns, it will just be talk of the internet bubble for a week and then he’ll be a heel like anyone else
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Properly trained? and what wwe guys are??? right that company cant get anyone over for a reason. Anyways i caved to this so lets forget it


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## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

bdon said:


> And that negates every bit of story-telling they’ve been doing for months. Going back as far as All Out with Page entering with The Bucks at his side, a staple of the Omega NJPW run. There’s a BTE episode that begins with a cartoon of someone playing with AEW action figures showing Kenny as the champ with Page challenging him, then the real Page “wakes up” and laughs about the possibility of he and Kenny feuding.
> 
> They’ve been building that relationship to a Kenny in the role of Tanahashi and Page in the role of Okada.
> 
> ...


That sounds awful and, frankly, boring. And way too much behind the scenes stuff for anyone to care about. The Mega Powers splitting had a heel. If you want people to care, they need to want someone to kick ass and someone to get their ass kicked.

The whole feud is whack and I’m convinced whoever is behind it doesn’t know how to tell stories. They’ve accidentally gotten Page too over to be a heel, even though that was probably the plan. So now he’s either got to be a mid-card baby when Omega beats him, or they chew threw Omega to make Babyface Page and Omega is cooked.

You can see the corner they are booking themselves into from quite a fair way away. 



shandcraig said:


> Properly trained? and what wwe guys are??? right that company cant get anyone over for a reason. Anyways i caved to this so lets forget it


It’s a reference to the previously discussed video where Omega admits he was never trained.


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