# Orlando Gay Bar Shooting



## Born of Osiris (Oct 29, 2013)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

What is there to say that hasn't been said before?


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## Draykorinee (Aug 4, 2015)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

My favourite tweet from someone who was there is



> Never seen so many dead bodies on the floor, God is good that my friends and I didnt get shot


How sycophantic do you have to be to claim divine intervention and that someone is good because other people died and not you ><


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## nucklehead88 (Dec 17, 2012)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

How much more is it going to take? How much blood is enough to change the laws? 

"It's my 2nd amendment right as an American to bear arms"

Yea well it fucking shouldn't be. But yea keep it up with the amazing mass shooting track record you guys have.


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## Ronny (Apr 7, 2016)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

NRA be like: 'If everyone in the bar had a gun, noone would've been hurt.'


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## BORT (Oct 5, 2009)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

Sad news .


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## Neuron (Jul 31, 2013)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

The fuck is going on in Orlando?


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## AT&T Stadium (Aug 25, 2015)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



BORT said:


> Sad news .


Just this. So sad. Some pathetic people in this world.


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## Eva MaRIHyse (Jun 20, 2014)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

How pathetic and repulsive is it that even in this day and age this sort of shit keeps happening. And that homesexual people are still targeted like this.



draykorinee said:


> My favourite tweet from someone who was there is
> 
> 
> 
> How sycophantic do you have to be to claim divine intervention and that someone is good because other people died and not you ><


Yep thats fucked up. Its always ridiculous when survivors claim divine intervention and god is good, etc. What about all the people that didn't make it out of there? What does god hate them? Is he some cruel douchebag who picked you as one of his favourites?


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## Vox Machina (May 22, 2014)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

Not much to say that hasn't been said. But rest in peace to all that lost their life because of a psycho with a gun. Thoughts and prayers to their families.


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## Chloe (Apr 1, 2014)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

Florida continuing to be the place where if you were to give an enema to the world, the tube would be stuck in Florida.


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## Miss Sally (Jul 14, 2014)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

Florida is just a strange place, so sad to hear that.


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## The Regent Alien. (Jul 26, 2014)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

First what happened to christina grimmie and now this. I agree..Florida WTF!!!!
My heart goes out to the family/friends and loved ones of those who passed.


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## Dobbizzle (Dec 27, 2015)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

Yeah "Florida's" the strange place, not the entire US, because these sort of shootings only ever happen in Florida....oh wait. Thoughts go out to those who are affected by such a horrific and preventable tragedy.


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## Reaper (Sep 4, 2013)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

Numbers are crazy. 20 dead and 42 injured. That's at least over a hundred shots fired ... Damn. 

Great job by the police however given the gravity of the situation - and it could have gotten a heck of a lot worse. From what I read in one article, they apparently rammed through the building with a car and got the shooter.


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## deepelemblues (Sep 26, 2011)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

NBC News first and now everyone else reporting a bit of relevant information that somehow hasn't been mentioned here:

Muslim terrorist.



nucklehead88 said:


> How much more is it going to take? How much blood is enough to change the laws?
> 
> "It's my 2nd amendment right as an American to bear arms"
> 
> Yea well it fucking shouldn't be. But yea keep it up with the amazing mass shooting track record you guys have.


You mean like in France?

Muslim. Terrorist. 



> Ronny927 said:
> 
> 
> > NRA be like: 'If everyone in the bar had a gun, noone would've been hurt.'


I heard the police stopped him with their I'm going to use this opportunity to be a bitch about guns powers.

Oh wait, they used guns.



Dobbizzle said:


> Yeah "Florida's" the strange place, not the entire US, because these sort of shootings only ever happen in Florida....oh wait. Thoughts go out to those who are affected by such a horrific and preventable tragedy.


These sort of Muslim terrorist massacres only happen in America...

Oh wait.

You've all buried the lede just as hard as you can, still failed. Terrorists laugh at your bitchy self-righteous naivete.

I can't believe there isn't a law or something making it illegal for people to make and possess the suicide bomb vest he was wearing, America when will you wake up amirite?


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## markoutsmarkout (Dec 30, 2014)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

Lefties already trying to jump on this to make it a gun thing? Disgusting.

It was a Muslim terrorist attack. What a shocker.


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## Dobbizzle (Dec 27, 2015)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



deepelemblues said:


> You've all buried the lede just as hard as you can, still failed. Terrorists laugh at your bitchy self-righteous naivete.


You think? Funny how the largest terrorist attack in recent memory (9/11) happened in this super-safe gun filled place? Do you know the difference between the UK and the US? The difference is here the police have guns, the populace at large for the most part don't. More differences: In the last 6 months more people have died from gun related deaths than in the UK in the last 20 years. You actually have more white native killers with guns in the last year than we've had terrorists of any colour or creed in the last 100 years. Would you like me to continue, or are you just going to concede that your argument is retarded?


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## SHIVV-EAUX-EMME-GEEE (Sep 12, 2013)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

I've just read suspected Muslim extremist. Why am I not surprised?


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## Marv95 (Mar 9, 2011)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

Sad. Thoughts and prayers with those affected.
@THE SHIV:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T93ebEOtc8I


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## deepelemblues (Sep 26, 2011)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



Dobbizzle said:


> You think? Funny how the largest terrorist attack in recent memory (9/11) happened in this super-safe gun filled place?


There were no guns on any of the 4 planes. What are you talking about?



> Do you know the difference between the UK and the US? The difference is here the police have guns, the populace at large for the most part don't.


Yeah, that's why when Muslim terrorists hit London again it's going to be another Bataclan. Weird how these people always target places where there are no guns except theirs.



> More differences: In the last 6 months more people have died from gun related deaths than in the UK in the last 20 years.


Muslim. Terrorist. Something you don't understand about that? 



> You actually have more white native killers with guns in the last year than we've had terrorists of any colour or creed in the last 100 years.


Muslim. Terrorist. 



> Would you like me to continue, or are you just going to concede that your argument is retarded?


If you think "white native killers with guns" have killed more people in America in the last year than all the terrorist attacks in Britain in the last 100 years, or that there are a larger number of white people who've killed someone with a gun in America in the last year than there were terrorists in Britain in the last 100 years, you're ignorant as fuck about the last 100 years of British history. 

By the way Islam is not a race, "white" is, good job on your racism there buddy.

How did those French gun laws do at preventing Muslim terrorists from shooting up a couple restaurants and the Bataclan?

How did those Belgian gun laws do at preventing those same Muslims from acquiring their guns and stashing them in Molenbeek before they took them to France and killed 100+ people with them?

It's like gun laws don't work or something when you're dealing with terrorists who are fighting a war. But surely the answer is to be an asshole about guns, that will work! Your impotent anti-gun rage will surely prevent terrorists from acquiring guns just like France and Belgium's anti-gun laws and attitude prevented the Bataclan... oh wait no they didn't.


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## markoutsmarkout (Dec 30, 2014)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



THE SHIV said:


> I've just read suspected Muslim extremist. Why am I not surprised?


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## CM Buck (Sep 2, 2012)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

Jesus christ dude I don't want Darren young pushed in any capacity but this is not the fucking way to go about it. You don't want to see him pushed? Shoot yourself in the head not other people


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## deepelemblues (Sep 26, 2011)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

OPD officer shot in head, saved by his Kevlar helmet.

Mass shooters like Adam Lanza or Dylann Roof don't get in gunfights with police.

Terrorists fighting a war do. 

Perhaps it can be explained how domestic peacetime laws stop people fighting a war because they don't. Not in France, not in Belgium, not in Norway (hey there's a white native killer for dobizzle to be racist about), not in America. People fighting a war laugh at the stupidity of thinking restrictive gun laws are going to stop them. And they give thanks that there are people so stupid around, makes it easier for them to slaughter more infidels and heathens for the glory of Allah or the Aryan race or whatever, people focusing their time and energy on stupid ideas that don't stop terrorists and never will.


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## TKOK (Apr 6, 2006)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

If you're warped enough to think that gunning down 20 people and injuring another few dozen is okay, i really doubt you are gonna give much a fuck about any gun laws.


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## Karma101 (Sep 7, 2012)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



deepelemblues said:


> Yeah, that's why when Muslim terrorists hit London again it's going to be another Bataclan. Weird how these people always target places where there are no guns except theirs.


This argument doesn't really hold up considering we are currently posted in a thread about a terrorist attack in Florida, a place not really known for its strict gun laws. There isn't actually any correlation at all between terrorist attacks and places with strict gun laws.


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## deepelemblues (Sep 26, 2011)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



Karma101 said:


> This argument doesn't really hold up considering we are currently posted in a thread about a terrorist attack in Florida, a place not really known for its strict gun laws. There isn't actually any correlation at all between terrorist attacks and places with strict gun laws.


Thanks for proving the point, gun laws are irrelevant. They were irrelevant in France, Belgium and Norway, they're irrelevant in Florida. People fighting a war look at gun laws as a minor inconvenience at most regardless of what the gun laws are in the places they are fighting that war.


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## DeeGirl (Aug 18, 2014)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

Feel so bad for all the sane folk of Florida. So many nutjobs living there ruining lives.


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## Kink_Brawn (Mar 4, 2015)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

It's interesting that whenever a mass shooting happens people are so quick to just say "Dude, America and its guns, dude". As if there is not so many other things that factor into the problem. The US is a huge country with different degrees of laws, populations, demographics, crime rates and all other things varying state to state. It's idiotic to oversimplify it like that.

I would like to see the number of legal gun owners that actually go on shooting sprees. I bet the number is pretty low.


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## Ham and Egger (Dec 13, 2005)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

Some sort of comprehensive gun reform is surely needed in my country. Deep psyche evaluations and background checks so animals like him can't get easy access to guns.


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## stevefox1200 (Jul 7, 2009)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

Cnn is calling it a terror attack

Gun control debate is now outdated

Everyone please move onto the "is Islam naturally violent" in any orderly fashion


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## The Hardcore Show (Apr 13, 2003)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

This type of fucked up shit is what will help get Trump elected. I don't think he would care what laws he would have to break to wipe every ISIS/radical influenced country off the planet.


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## deepelemblues (Sep 26, 2011)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



Ham and Egger said:


> Some sort of comprehensive gun reform is surely needed in my country. Deep psyche evaluations and background checks so animals like him can't get easy access to guns.


Classifying jihadism as a mental disease, that's going to go over well with the PC crowd.


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## markoutsmarkout (Dec 30, 2014)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*


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## The Hardcore Show (Apr 13, 2003)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



markoutsmarkout said:


>


Add the Democratic party and the people who support it to the places and people he can drop a bomb on.


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## Headliner (Jun 24, 2004)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

It's unfortunate that people are still not accepted for what race or sexuality they are. RIP to the victims.


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## RetepAdam. (May 13, 2007)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

Going off the reported numbers (50 dead and 53 more hospitalized), it stands as the largest mass shooting in U.S. history by a wide margin.

The sad thing is, we all know what's coming. It will fall somewhere between absolutely nothing (as always) and the further demonization of Muslims rather than addressing gun control laws. It's like The Onion said: "No way to prevent this," says only nation where this regularly happens.

And as always, I'll post this:


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## The Hardcore Show (Apr 13, 2003)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



Headliner said:


> It's unfortunate that people are still not accepted for what race of sexuality they are. RIP to the victims.


Here in the US they never will. Most greedy and selfish place on the planet. Life only means something here when you have the most money other wise you are a lazy fuck and the reason for every bad thing happening here.


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## Jaunties (May 21, 2015)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

Unbelievable, bad news to wake up to. The victims, their families and friends, as well as anyone else involved on the receiving end of this have my sympathy.


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## Tim Legend (Jun 27, 2006)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

If your take on the whole thing is "Merica an der gunz harhar!' please fuck off into permanent ignorance...

So much more on the table then Gun Regulation...

...which I'm not completely against if done rationally... 

This country's issues stem from a Justice system that takes a revolving door approach and lets some of the worst types Ie the Criminally Insane and mentally ill fly right under the radar...

apparently he had some device strapped to him...so muslim terrorism is at play here... thats a whole bigger can of worms all together


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## deepelemblues (Sep 26, 2011)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



RetepAdam. said:


> Going off the reported numbers (50 dead and 53 more hospitalized), it stands as the largest mass shooting in U.S. history by a wide margin.
> 
> The sad thing is, we all know what's coming. It will fall somewhere between absolutely nothing (as always) and the further demonization of Muslims rather than addressing gun control laws. It's like The Onion said: "No way to prevent this," says only nation where this regularly happens.
> 
> And as always, I'll post this:


Gun control laws do absolutely nothing to prevent war massacres.

Dumbest shit ever and it's sad that people believe it.

Tired of ignorant as fuck people saying ignorant as fuck shit like 'this only regularly happens in America.'

It regularly happens in dozens of countries all over the planet which people would know if they weren't ignorant as fuck. In most of those places it happens more regularly than it does in America. Most of those countries have stricter gun control laws than America too. But yes gun control laws need to be addressed because they are the correct solution if you want to do jack shit to prevent massacres from happening.


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## Gandhi (Sep 15, 2012)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

This muslim was FOLLOWING the teachings of islam and his prophet Mo-Ham-Head.

*From the hadiths*

_Abu Dawud (4462) - The Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said, "Whoever you find doing the action of the people of Loot, execute the one who does it and the one to whom it is done."._

Talk about gun problems all you want, but *islam is a problem* too.


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## The Hardcore Show (Apr 13, 2003)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



Tim Legend said:


> If your take on the whole thing is "Merica an der gunz harhar!' please fuck off into permanent ignorance...
> 
> So much more on the table then Gun Regulation...
> 
> ...


Just let Trump bomb the entire middle east until they don't exist anymore. That is what most in this country wish happened after 9/11. If they live here then kill their families and pretty much anyone they ever knew. 

Mass murder for mass murder is pretty much the fucked up answer for things like this in America. That is why so many want Trump to be elected President.


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## Eva MaRIHyse (Jun 20, 2014)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

So the death toll has reached 50, with another 50 injured. 

This isn't about politics, this isn't an agenda. But something has to be done, anyone who denies that isn't fit to be called a human being. Shit like this should not be a regular occurrence. Every avenue has to be taken to stop this sort of thing. A 200 year old document doesn't mean shit compared to all the senseless deaths. 50 people shot dead for no reason in one night at one place. 50 families forever broken.


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## The Hardcore Show (Apr 13, 2003)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



Fearless Maryse said:


> So the death toll has reached 50, with another 50 injured.
> 
> This isn't about politics, this isn't an agenda. But something has to be done, anyone who denies that isn't fit to be called a human being. Shit like this should not be a regular occurrence. Every avenue has to be taken to stop this sort of thing. A 200 year old document doesn't mean shit compared to all the senseless deaths. 50 people shot dead for no reason in one night at one place. 50 families forever broken.


So go vote for Trump and let him act like the fist dictator in chief.


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## markoutsmarkout (Dec 30, 2014)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



Fearless Maryse said:


> So the death toll has reached 50, with another 50 injured.
> 
> This isn't about politics, this isn't an agenda. But something has to be done, anyone who denies that isn't fit to be called a human being. Shit like this should not be a regular occurrence. Every avenue has to be taken to stop this sort of thing. *A 200 year old document doesn't mean shit compared to all the senseless deaths.* 50 people shot dead for no reason in one night at one place. 50 families forever broken.


unk4

Childish mentality.


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## Tim Legend (Jun 27, 2006)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

When will people realize that if some Asshole is crazy enough to Interpret religious text as a warrant for mass murder... Guns aren't the main issue at hand, people wanting to hurt others is... and no matter the tool Ie Gun, Bombs, Swords, Missiles, Mustard Gas, Anthrax.... he wasn't going to be denied his murder spree.


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## Marv95 (Mar 9, 2011)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

Are people _that_ idiotic to think gun control would have prevented this? There were bombs found.


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## markoutsmarkout (Dec 30, 2014)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



The Hardcore Show said:


> So go vote for Trump and let him act like the fist dictator in chief.


Pretty sure he/she's talking about gun control, which means a vote for Hillary breh.


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## Ham and Egger (Dec 13, 2005)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



deepelemblues said:


> Classifying jihadism as a mental disease, that's going to go over well with the PC crowd.


That's what you're implying. There are enough gun related deaths and mass shooters from various backgrounds that makes your statement narrow and biased. At this point it seems logical that our current gun laws aren't doing jack shit to curb people to getting access to guns. You can't stop everyone because its as simple as getting taking a gun from a family member or a friend. But if we can change gun laws so it won't go into the hands of those who have underlying mental issues, it'd be a step in the right direction.


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## Born of Osiris (Oct 29, 2013)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

How the FUCK would gun control stop a god damn terrorist from comitting this sort of atrocity? You guys do realize that they don't give a fuck about laws and will get any access to any sort of weaponry they can through countless other means right?


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## ManiacMichaelMyers (Oct 23, 2009)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

Feel for those affected by the shooting but this is obviously going the gun debate route again.


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## FITZ (May 8, 2007)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

Really bad situation. This is the type of terrorist attack that's really difficult to do anything about because what I'm reading makes it sound like the guy was radicalized but didn't really have any type of affiliation with anyone specific. Of course as time goes on this information could change but what I'm reading now doesn't sound good. 




Dobbizzle said:


> You think? Funny how the largest terrorist attack in recent memory (9/11) happened in this super-safe gun filled place? Do you know the difference between the UK and the US?* The difference is here the police have guns, the populace at large for the most part don't.* More differences: In the last 6 months more people have died from gun related deaths than in the UK in the last 20 years. You actually have more white native killers with guns in the last year than we've had terrorists of any colour or creed in the last 100 years. Would you like me to continue, or are you just going to concede that your argument is retarded?


I don't consider that a positive thing at all.


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## Peter Venkman (Aug 23, 2014)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

Sad news, and such a senseless and mindless tragedy. Why can't people just stop being assholes to each other?


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## Ham and Egger (Dec 13, 2005)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



Hit said:


> How the FUCK would gun control stop a god damn terrorist from comitting this sort of atrocity? You guys do realize that they don't give a fuck about laws and will get any access to any sort of weaponry they can through countless other means right?


The fact the my country got more mass shootings than anyone in the world in telling that something should at least be done.


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## Gandhi (Sep 15, 2012)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

Gun control didn't stop muslim terrorists in Europe.


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## SpeedStick (Feb 11, 2010)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

Pulse nightclub is a *gun free zone*. Criminals don't follow common sense laws. #GunControlNow


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## Bushmaster (Sep 28, 2010)

Tragic, not gonna get into the debate about gun laws. It's sad so many have lost their life. You go out and just plan on having fun and this is the last thing you expect. 

Will pray for the friends and family members of the victims.


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## Ham and Egger (Dec 13, 2005)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

There's a lot of people who are saying gun reform won't do shit but it's better than not doing anything at all.


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## QWERTYOP (Jun 6, 2013)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

Another one. And America still will not do the obvious. So see you at the inevitable next one.


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## SHIVV-EAUX-EMME-GEEE (Sep 12, 2013)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

This is an Islamic terrorism issue. People need to face up to that fact.


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## deepelemblues (Sep 26, 2011)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



Ham and Egger said:


> The fact the my country got more mass shootings than anyone in the world in telling that something should at least be done.


No it doesn't. America does not have more mass shootings than any other country in the world. America's not even in the top 20.


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## FriedTofu (Sep 29, 2014)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

Republicans: 
Crazy:BAN ALL MUSLIMS! Gun reforms are USELESS!
Moderate: Muslims in Americas are a concern. Something needs to be done about gun violence.

Democrats: 
Crazy: BAN ALL GUNS! BAN ALL RELIGION! DON'T BLAME ISLAM!
Moderate: Gun reforms are needed. There are good and bad people regardless of faith.

I think that sums up the discussions by the talking heads in the upcoming days.


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## Born of Osiris (Oct 29, 2013)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



THE SHIV said:


> This is an Islamic terrorism issue. People need to face up to that fact.


These people literally think these terrorists just walk into a store and purchase a gun from a shop. As if it's that easy. 

These guns get trafficked overseas, from the darkweb, etc. This is a whole fucking criminal network here.


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## Gandhi (Sep 15, 2012)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



Ham and Egger said:


> There's a lot of people who are saying gun reform won't do shit but it's better than not doing anything at all.


Won't addressing islam publicly as a hateful cult do a lot?

Won't it show non muslims there is plenty to fear from islam? Won't it show moderate peaceful muslims how they were brainwashed into islam and make them leave islam? Won't it get both non muslims and new ex muslims uniting together to fight the REAL muslims (terrorists) and make the world a better place?

*Fight Islam.*


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## deepelemblues (Sep 26, 2011)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



The Hardcore Show said:


> Here in the US they never will. Most greedy and selfish place on the planet. Life only means something here when you have the most money other wise you are a lazy fuck and the reason for every bad thing happening here.


The US is also not the most greedy and selfish country on the planet. It's actually the least greedy and selfish as charity (domestic and international, public and private) statistics and disaster relief statistics show, but don't let facts get in the way of your hate.


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## Ham and Egger (Dec 13, 2005)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



deepelemblues said:


> No it doesn't. America does not have more mass shootings than any other country in the world. America's not even in the top 20.


In terms of westernized nations we've got more than any one them.


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## Honeymoon (Oct 17, 2015)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

Some heartbreaking texts from one of the victims who died last night.

https://twitter.com/meanpIastic/status/742014058337996800

These are his final texts sent to his mother. This broke my heart.


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## Miss Sally (Jul 14, 2014)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

You people talking about Gun Control realize it was a terrorist attack yes? That means if you're going to commit a terrorist act Gun Control will do basically nothing right? You realize that the entire Southern Border of the US is wide open and there is media/video/documented evidence that people, drugs and weapons come across that border because it's poorly patrolled and regulated correct? People who commit acts like this will get weapons via mail or from across the border where Cartels sell weapons. The southern border is pretty much a wide open free for all war zone. The ignorance is astounding. 

Talking about Gun Control where there is a Terrorist Attack and completely ignore the fact that most who want Gun Control want lax borders yet choose to ignore the massive Cartel problem on said border. So if you want Gun Control shouldn't we stop illegal flows of weapons and THEN work on ways to curve anyone trying to purchase weapons for this legally?


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## RetepAdam. (May 13, 2007)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



deepelemblues said:


> Gun control laws do absolutely nothing to prevent war massacres.
> 
> Dumbest shit ever and it's sad that people believe it.
> 
> ...


If you want to compare America on even footing with Honduras, Jamaica and Swaziland, that's your prerogative. Just don't expect me to listen as though that argument has merit.

We have the 112th highest homicide rate in the world, yet somehow we're 18th in firearm-related homicides. No country has anything even close to that much disproportional gun violence compared to the rest of their homicides. How is it that we're so much better than all these other countries at stopping violent crimes, yet we can't do shit about gun violence? How is it that a country like Argentina has literally _double_ our homicide rate, yet we have more firearm-related homicides each year?

Everytime this shit happens, we hear lines like "Well, if a criminal has his heart set on committing a crime, he's going to find a way to get a gun..." Well, shit. Why even bother having laws? If a terrorist is deadset on bringing down a plane, we should probably just abolish security checkpoints. If drug users manage to get cocaine anyway, why not just make it widely available at Walmart?

We don't know the full extent of the shooter's motivation just yet, but it sounds like he had a deep-seated hatred for homosexuals. (I won't even get into the irony of all these compassionate right-wingers coming out of the woodwork to _pray_ for these people that they loudly condemn the other 364 days of the year.) The motive is rarely the same when it comes to these mass incidents, but the one thing that continues to be the case is that it is way too easy for the perpetrators to get their hands on guns. Whether it's legally or illegally, the fact remains. These aren't well-trained sleeper agents infiltrating society and waiting for the proper moment to strike. Most of them are just random fuckos who know how to use the internet or can pass a rudimentary background check because they don't have cartoon cuckoo birds flying in circles around their head.

And honestly, it's time to wake up. I know the whole fantasy around the second amendment is that it protects us from a tyrannical government. It's 2016. They have drones now. If they wanted to go Big Brother on us, it would be ballgame from the get go. Your little 9mm isn't doing shit.

But I digress. Like I said, nothing will happen because nothing ever does. We, as a nation, co-signed four years ago that it was okay for 20 _children_ to get murdered by a gunman. If that didn't change anything, nothing will at this point, so you have nothing to worry about apart from the usual specter of _"oooh, liberals..."_ My bigger concern is that this will create another wave of anti-Muslim backlash, even though — and again, it's early — this doesn't appear to be ISIS in action or anything along those lines. This seemed to be a relgiious extremist, much like the Planned Parenthood shooter. So, that part kind of sickens me above anything else. I'm holding out hope that we won't go that route, but I'm expecting the worst because that's what seems to be delivered pretty regularly.


----------



## Born of Osiris (Oct 29, 2013)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



Miss Sally said:


> You people talking about Gun Control realize it was a terrorist attack yes? That means if you're going to commit a terrorist act Gun Control will do basically nothing right? You realize that the entire Southern Border of the US is wide open and there is media/video/documented evidence that people, drugs and weapons come across that border because it's poorly patrolled and regulated correct? People who commit acts like this will get weapons via mail or from across the border where Cartels sell weapons. The southern border is pretty much a wide open free for all war zone. The ignorance is astounding.
> 
> Talking about Gun Control where there is a Terrorist Attack and completely ignore the fact that most who want Gun Control want lax borders yet choose to ignore the massive Cartel problem on said border.


No, criminals will surely stop being criminals if you ban things!


----------



## Desecrated (Feb 4, 2009)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

Most people that are against gun regulations are the type of people who know they shouldn't even own one. Hence the defensive mentality when people believe they checks and regulations should be installed.

But that isn't the topic.

Homosexuals have been made to feel very welcome slowly in western culture over the past 30 years but Islamic insurgency is going to cause a bigger problem for them than the AIDs concern. Hope that they can stay safe while still living their life as they wish. RIP to those.


----------



## Ham and Egger (Dec 13, 2005)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



Gandhi said:


> Won't addressing islam publicly as a hateful cult do a lot?
> 
> Won't it show non muslims there is plenty to fear from islam? Won't it show moderate peaceful muslims how they were brainwashed into islam and make them leave islam? Won't it get both non muslims and new ex muslims uniting together to fight the REAL muslims (terrorists) and make the world a better place?
> 
> *Fight Islam.*


So you basically want to tell a billion plus people that Islam is wrong because a minority of people are twisting it for their own fucked up ideology? You think Saudi Arabia, Iran, and Syria will abandon their religion because of a religious extremist group? Radical Islam has claimed more live of Muslims than that of non-Muslims. We cant' fully kill ideologies but at least here in America we can limit their access to weapons. I do believe radical Islam is a problem that should be vanquished but there are enough psychotic mass shooters in America who aren't Muslim who take their frustration out on innocent people that looking at gun control should be addressed.


----------



## Tim Legend (Jun 27, 2006)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



SpeedStick said:


> Pulse nightclub is a *gun free zone*. Criminals don't follow common sense laws. #GunControlNow


So why would they respect gun regulation laws? Glaring gap in logic here.... unless you trying to be ironic...

I seriously need to hear some people's idea's on what these laws should be... 

because there are laws in place now...like if you buy a gun from a dealer you must complete a background check and 3 day waiting period... I know this because I had to do this...

I really want to hear some ideas because If your idea of gun "reform" is to take them away from Honest, Tax paying, forthright citizens like myself whose gun has never left my house... then I take issue

anyway... I'm stepping away from this because its overshadowing the loss of lives...fucking hell...this is awful regardless


----------



## Miss Sally (Jul 14, 2014)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



Ham and Egger said:


> So you basically want to tell a billion plus people that Islam is wrong because a minority of people are twisting it for their own fucked up ideology? You think Saudi Arabia, Iran, and Syria will abandon their religion because of a religious extremist group? Radical Islam has claimed more live of Muslims than that of non-Muslims. We cant' fully kill ideologies but at least here in America we can limit their access to weapons. I do believe radical Islam is a problem that should be vanquished but there are enough psychotic mass shooters in America who aren't Muslim who take their frustration out on innocent people that looking at gun control should be addressed.


Iran, Syria and Saudi Arabia practice extreme forms of Islam, why would they care about an Islamic Extremist group? You also realize there are 100+ known Islamic Terrorist groups yes?


----------



## Mr. WrestleMania (Oct 16, 2012)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

Another terrorist attack and this one targeting homosexuals in particular. Shocking.


----------



## Born of Osiris (Oct 29, 2013)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



Tim Legend said:


> So why would they respect gun regulation laws? Glaring gap in logic here.... unless you trying to be ironic...
> 
> I seriously need to hear some people's idea's on what these laws should be...
> 
> ...


That's a good question I rarely see answered. What the fuck exactly do you want the laws to be to get a gun? Background checks are a thing already as you said. They have no solution because there is none unless they're okay with Goverment forces barges into people's homes and taking whatever legally owned weapons they possess.


----------



## Gandhi (Sep 15, 2012)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



Ham and Egger said:


> So you basically want to tell a billion plus people that Islam is wrong because a minority of people are twisting it for their own fucked up ideology? You think Saudi Arabia, Iran, and Syria will abandon their religion because of a religious extremist group? Radical Islam has claimed more live of Muslims than that of non-Muslims. We cant' fully kill ideologies but at least here in America we can limit their access to weapons. I do believe radical Islam is a problem that should be vanquished but there are enough psychotic mass shooters in America who aren't Muslim who take their frustration out on innocent people that looking at gun control should be addressed.


Twisting it for their own fucked up ideology? My friend, ISLAM is said ideology.

There is no _"extremist"_ form of islam, there is only real islam vs fake cookie cutter islam. What you call radical islam, is merely just islam in all what Mohammed ordered it to be, and countless of _"muslims"_ killed are all cookie cutter muslims who don't agree with wife beating even though the quran strictly states wife beating is ordered if wives don't follow the orders of their husbands. There is no need for the dishonest defense of muslims as _"peaceful ones"_ and _"extremist ones"_, there are only cookier cutter muslims and REAL muslims and the latter kind will slit your throat if they had the chance.

Your point about gun control has nothing to do with my point, that islam is an issue that needs to be dealt with.


----------



## Desecrated (Feb 4, 2009)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



Tim Legend said:


> So why would they respect gun regulation laws? Glaring gap in logic here.... unless you trying to be ironic...
> 
> I seriously need to hear some people's idea's on what these laws should be...
> 
> ...


Describe the background checks. Also 3 days is nothing.

Add extensive psychological evaluations and a reason to own one rather than "mur rights".


----------



## Ham and Egger (Dec 13, 2005)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



Miss Sally said:


> Iran, Syria and Saudi Arabia practice extreme forms of Islam, why would they care about an Islamic Extremist group? You also realize there are 100+ known Islamic Terrorist groups yes?


They care about these radical groups because these are the same groups they are fighting in their own lands. Whether or not they practice extreme forms of Islam has nothing to do with the conversation.


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## asdf0501 (May 31, 2009)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

If we, and the media, are ready to say that a Hatred mass shooting crime is terrorism (as we should) even when, at first, it seems he was organized alone and did it by personal motivations leaned to his believe system, only because the guy is muslim. Are we ready to say that _every_ mass shooting is terrorism finally?

Just asking


----------



## SHIVV-EAUX-EMME-GEEE (Sep 12, 2013)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

Florida Senator Bill Nelson D just said they are leaning towards a radical Islamic connection. Just have to wait and see.


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## ST1TCH (Aug 6, 2014)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

I have no idea who did this but don't blame this on guns.


That's actually kind of a lie, I have a pretty good idea of who did this.

This is what happens when we glorify a religion that supports the murder of gays as a religion of peace. Albeit I have no idea the motivations of this so I could definitely be wrong but I would put everything I own on this guy being Muslim. He didn't shoot up a gay club because he had a gun, he shot up a gay club because his religion and community support his "right" to. Perhaps I will do some research later to prove myself right.


----------



## Stinger Fan (Jun 21, 2006)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

Is it me or did it take longer to identify the gunmen as a Muslim in comparison to if this person was white?


----------



## deepelemblues (Sep 26, 2011)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



Ham and Egger said:


> In terms of westernized nations we've got more than any one them.


Keep shifting them goalposts


----------



## Miss Sally (Jul 14, 2014)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



Stinger Fan said:


> Is it me or did it take longer to identify the gunmen as a Muslim in comparison to if this person was white?


The same thing happened with San Bern and the media was saying it was a white shooter before being actually IDed.


----------



## RetepAdam. (May 13, 2007)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

Relevant:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/742016483765542913

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/741997301657440256


----------



## wwenba (Oct 11, 2006)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

Always hurts my heart for senseless happenings like this


----------



## Reaper (Sep 4, 2013)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



Stinger Fan said:


> Is it me or did it take longer to identify the gunmen as a Muslim in comparison to if this person was white?


Yeah, because Muslims walk around with the word MUSLIM slapped on their foreheads therefore immediately identifiable. 

fpalm


----------



## Miss Sally (Jul 14, 2014)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



RetepAdam. said:


> Relevant:
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/742016483765542913
> ...




Yes this has everything to do with guns yet when it comes to Islamic terrorism, that has nothing to do with Islam.


----------



## RetepAdam. (May 13, 2007)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



Miss Sally said:


> Yes this has everything to do with guns yet when it comes to Islamic terrorism, that has nothing to do with Islam.


It has something to do with both. However, one doesn't empower a person to singlehandedly take 50 lives the way the other does.

Like I said earlier, there was a similar act of religious extremism less than a year ago at a Planned Parenthood facility. Different religion. What do you propose we do?


----------



## Ham and Egger (Dec 13, 2005)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



Gandhi said:


> Twisting it for their own fucked up ideology? My friend, ISLAM is said ideology.
> 
> There is no _"extremist"_ form of islam, there is only real islam vs fake cookie cutter islam. What you call radical islam, is merely just islam in all what Mohammed ordered it to be, and countless of _"muslims"_ killed are all cookie cutter muslims who don't agree with wife beating even though the quran strictly states wife beating is ordered if wives don't follow the orders of their husbands. There is no need for the dishonest defense of muslims as _"peaceful ones"_ and _"extremist ones"_, there are only cookier cutter muslims and REAL muslims and the latter kind will slit your throat if they had the chance.
> 
> Your point about gun control has nothing to do with my point, that islam is an issue that needs to be dealt with.


The same can be said for Christianity. There are many insane laws and acts that were deemed normal when it was written but we don't follow laws of the Bible to a tee because we saw how ridiculous it is. I've been around enough Muslims to see that they're not apart of a crazed western hating death cult. The real Muslims outweigh the extreme fucked Muslims.


----------



## Miss Sally (Jul 14, 2014)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



RetepAdam. said:


> It has something to do with both. However, one doesn't empower a person to singlehandedly take 50 lives the way the other does.
> 
> Like I said earlier, there was a similar act of religious extremism less than a year ago at a Planned Parenthood facility. Different religion. What do you propose we do?


Well if extreme gun control is your solution to the gun problem then I suggest an extreme regulation of Religion, especially ones of peace, which happen to cause more terrorist related issues than all others.


----------



## ErickRowan_Fan (Feb 8, 2014)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



Hit said:


> These people literally think these terrorists just walk into a store and purchase a gun from a shop. As if it's that easy.
> 
> These guns get trafficked overseas, from the darkweb, etc. This is a whole fucking criminal network here.


You can get an assault rifle from the internet, no problem, regardless of gun laws. When a lonely psycho decides to flip out, gun laws aren't going to stop him. 

Guns laws do prevent violence, on a certain level, but I do not think they are the major reason behind mass shootings such as this. I would know, because there have been mass shootings where I'm from, and the laws are fairly strict here. There's a deeper reason behind young men flipping out, one that's ingrained into our psyche as a result of the thousands of years that we've caused violence upon each other. Some of us are essentially programmed to be violent, as a biological response to constant warfare, and there is very little that such people can truthfully do about it, other than perhaps eat tranquilizers for the rest of their life. Such men may be useful on the battlefield, but useless as part of any sort of civilian life.

A man might not even think of himself violent, until the urges to harm other people become manifested in their outward behaviour, and that side of humanity, is encouraged by vile ideologies like fundamentalist Islam along with the morally bankrupt, attention-seeking culture that we are living in. It gives these people the necessary encouragement to live out their nature, and makes killing appear honorable and just, no different from killing an enemy in an on-going war. Ideologies that revolve around absolutes and preach violence as the main form of punishment for "sin", to me, are simply inherently evil.

Perhaps we can prevent one or two mass shootings every year with gun laws, possibly even more, but it's still a cop-out answer as to why a young Muslim man, born to Afghan immigrant parents, goes on a rampage in a gay club. Obviously there have been other major factors that are at play in this situation, rather than just the availability of guns.


----------



## njcam (Mar 30, 2014)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*


----------



## SpeedStick (Feb 11, 2010)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



Tim Legend said:


> So why would they respect gun regulation laws? Glaring gap in logic here.... unless you trying to be ironic...
> 
> I seriously need to hear some people's idea's on what these laws should be...
> 
> ...


Give everybody guns , good people with guns = good


----------



## deepelemblues (Sep 26, 2011)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



RetepAdam. said:


> If you want to compare America on even footing with Honduras, Jamaica and Swaziland, that's your prerogative. Just don't expect me to listen as though that argument has merit.


I give zero fucks whether you listen to me or not roflmao

The typical old tired oh those are shitty countries.



> We have the 112th highest homicide rate in the world, yet somehow we're 18th in firearm-related homicides. No country has anything even close to that much disproportional gun violence compared to the rest of their homicides. How is it that we're so much better than all these other countries at stopping violent crimes, yet we can't do shit about gun violence? How is it that a country like Argentina has literally _double_ our homicide rate, yet we have more firearm-related homicides each year?


Maybe because we have about 8 times the population of Argentina?

Also your statement about disproportional gun violence compared to the rest of homicides is complete shit. Complete.



> Everytime this shit happens, we hear lines like "Well, if a criminal has his heart set on committing a crime, he's going to find a way to get a gun..." Well, shit. Why even bother having laws? If a terrorist is deadset on bringing down a plane, we should probably just abolish security checkpoints. If drug users manage to get cocaine anyway, why not just make it widely available at Walmart?


I don't believe I ever said there should be no gun laws. Another tired old shit argument. Try harder.



> We don't know the full extent of the shooter's motivation just yet, but it sounds like he had a deep-seated hatred for homosexuals. (I won't even get into the irony of all these compassionate right-wingers coming out of the woodwork to _pray_ for these people that they loudly condemn the other 364 days of the year.)


And what do you know about how often / how loudly "right-wingers" condemn homosexuals?

Stereotype much? I know it's easier than a real argument, but it's still pathetic. 



> The motive is rarely the same when it comes to these mass incidents, but the one thing that continues to be the case is that it is way too easy for the perpetrators to get their hands on guns.


And yet it was easier to get hands on semi-automatic weapons 100 years ago than it is today and there were no regular gun massacres then. Hmmm...



> Whether it's legally or illegally, the fact remains. These aren't well-trained sleeper agents infiltrating society and waiting for the proper moment to strike. Most of them are just random fuckos who know how to use the internet or can pass a rudimentary background check because they don't have cartoon cuckoo birds flying in circles around their head.


Come confiscate guns then. Try it. See what happens.



> And honestly, it's time to wake up. I know the whole fantasy around the second amendment is that it protects us from a tyrannical government. It's 2016. They have drones now. If they wanted to go Big Brother on us, it would be ballgame from the get go. Your little 9mm isn't doing shit.


This is the dumbest of dumbshit arguments, how did Arabs armed with light weapons and explosives fight the US military to essentially a standstill for 6 years in Iraq then? How did the Taliban do it in Afghanistan? 



> But I digress. Like I said, nothing will happen because nothing ever does. We, as a nation, co-signed four years ago that it was okay for 20 _children_ to get murdered by a gunman.


I reject your false dilemma. We as a nation did no such thing and you should be ashamed for saying such a thing. Of course your morals are perverse as fuck so you take pride in such a disgusting accusation. A fascist accusation, a blood libel, quite frankly. 



> If that didn't change anything, nothing will at this point, so you have nothing to worry about apart from the usual specter of _"oooh, liberals..."_


ROFL



> My bigger concern is that this will create another wave of anti-Muslim backlash, even though — and again, it's early — this doesn't appear to be ISIS in action or anything along those lines. This seemed to be a relgiious extremist, much like the Planned Parenthood shooter.


Yeah this is precisely the cuck attitude that makes the terrorists think they're winning. Which they are. Oh my a Muslim just killed 50 people because Allah said it's great, my bigger concern is anti-Muslim backlash. Complete cuck mindset. 

A Muslim that shot up a gay Orlando club 3 days after ISIS threatened Florida, who ISIS is cheering on Twitter, whose picture is being tweeted by ISIS supporters (a picture they apparently already had, they didn't pull it off his Facebook or somewhere after he was identified in the media) is comparable to a lone Christian terrorist. 

Man they are so comparable, Christian terrorists are only 10,000 terrorist attacks and at least 250,000 dead people worldwide behind. So comparable.



> So, that part kind of sickens me above anything else. I'm holding out hope that we won't go that route, but I'm expecting the worst because that's what seems to be delivered pretty regularly.


"An anti-Muslim backlash" sickens you more than 50 people being slaughtered because Allah said so. That's "the worst." Not 50 dead people. 

Yeah, I don't want people like you listening to me. Please don't.



RetepAdam. said:


> It has something to do with both. However, one doesn't empower a person to singlehandedly take 50 lives the way the other does.
> 
> Like I said earlier, there was a similar act of religious extremism less than a year ago at a Planned Parenthood facility. Different religion. What do you propose we do?


How many people were killed there?

How many Christian terrorist attacks happen every year?

How much money supports Christian terrorism?

How popular is Christian terrorism among Christians in general? 

How many Christian terrorists are there?

How much territory do they control?

Your false equivalency is pathetic.


----------



## Neuron (Jul 31, 2013)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



RetepAdam. said:


> It has something to do with both. However, one doesn't empower a person to singlehandedly take 50 lives the way the other does.
> 
> Like I said earlier, there was a similar act of religious extremism less than a year ago at a Planned Parenthood facility. *Different religion.* What do you propose we do?


So? Bring up a terrorist attack list and see how many Christian terrorist attacks there are in the world in comparison to Muslim attacks.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents,_January–June_2016


----------



## asdf0501 (May 31, 2009)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



deepelemblues said:


> *
> Maybe because we have about 8 times the population of Argentina?*
> 
> Also your statement about disproportional gun violence compared to the rest of homicides is complete shit. Complete.


Every time someone made this kind of argument, a puppy die.

People who don't understand statistics should not talk about them, period


----------



## RetepAdam. (May 13, 2007)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



Miss Sally said:


> Well if extreme gun control is your solution to the gun problem then I suggest an extreme regulation of Religion, especially ones of peace, which happen to cause more terrorist related issues than all others.


I never said anything about extreme gun control. Shit, I never even laid out exactly what my position on increased gun control was. But as soon as those two words are mentioned, it doesn't matter if the person proposing stricter laws is asking for an inch or for a mile, there's a group of people who are committed to shutting down any legislation whatsoever. Doesn't matter what it is. "You think private sales should require background checks? That's un-American! You're trying to take my guns away!"

I also agree with your point that religion has the propensity for being incredibly shitty from time to time. I wish people would take it less seriously. It's great for bringing communities together, but when you start using it as your moral compass, that's when you find yourself in danger of veering into "GOD HATES ****!" territory.

As for the issue of who's out there committing all these acts of terrorism... You seem to be quite content to attribute the lion's share of terrorism to Muslims. Internationally, you're probably correct. I do at least hear about it more than any other religion, and ISIS is obviously a terrorist state. Domestically, I guess it just depends on your definition of terrorism. :draper2


----------



## wkdsoul (Apr 2, 2012)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

why is this a terrorist act, and not a hate crime? whats the political part/statement?


----------



## Tim Legend (Jun 27, 2006)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



Desecrated said:


> Describe the background checks. Also 3 days is nothing.
> 
> Add extensive psychological evaluations and a reason to own one rather than "mur rights".


Ok ill bite... Background checks involve criminal records, employment, tax records, credit etc... an account of your life... They take your Drivers License, Social Sec # , And at least one more from of ID. 

A questionnaire and Reason for ownership are inquired... Its not like you walk up to the counter and walk away with a Fire-arm...But it isn't perfect either clearly...

Phych Evaluation by who? Some government anointed doctor....fuck that... If I can go to one of my choice and get approval then yes fine.... 

Self Defense... good enough reason for me should be good enough for you 

I won't lie... It can be simple in this country to get a gun If you have the Cash and connections... but that can be said about practically every major city on the globe.


----------



## deepelemblues (Sep 26, 2011)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



asdf0501 said:


> Every time someone made this kind of argument, a puppy die.
> 
> People who don't understand statistics should not talk about them, period


Then you should shut up, you're killing more puppies than PETA.


----------



## Ham and Egger (Dec 13, 2005)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

I've been caught up in this argument but I'm saddened that so many lives were lost for no reason other than their sexual orientation. I feel for the victims families.


----------



## asdf0501 (May 31, 2009)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



deepelemblues said:


> Then you should shut up, you're killing more puppies than PETA.


maybe but at least i understand the difference between raw numbers and proportions.

You can also check that


----------



## BigVern (May 23, 2016)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



Tim Legend said:


> When will people realize that if some Asshole is crazy enough to Interpret religious text as a warrant for mass murder... Guns aren't the main issue at hand, people wanting to hurt others is... and no matter the tool Ie Gun, Bombs, Swords, Missiles, Mustard Gas, Anthrax.... he wasn't going to be denied his murder spree.


"crazy enough to interpret" it that way? IT BLATANTLY SAYS IT. There is *zero room* for misinterpretation. The Quran calls for executions.

The problem is, in search of unfaltering tolerance, ignorant people are trying to give group A sexual freedom and group B religious freedom. They do so not caring that group B's freedom involves killing group A.

Religion or Freedom... you can't have both.


----------



## twaughthammer (Jun 1, 2015)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*


----------



## Gandhi (Sep 15, 2012)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



Ham and Egger said:


> The same can be said for Christianity. There are many insane laws and acts that were deemed normal when it was written but we don't follow laws of the Bible to a tee because we saw how ridiculous it is. I've been around enough Muslims to see that they're not apart of a crazed western hating death cult. The real Muslims outweigh the extreme fucked Muslims.


This is a very dishonest conversation you're putting fourth there.

Christianity is a death cult as well that needs to be addressed more (keyword is more), however unlike islam it has been mocked and addressed to no end by the west in all sorts of media to the point where it is a dying faith. Mocking islam however serves as mostly a taboo act in the west to _"respect muslims"_. Why should anyone not mock or criticize islam? Why shouldn't society vilify a cult that JUSTIFIES this terrorist's acts? 

You've been around enough muslims? Well I've been around muslims all my life because I live in the middle east, and I've realized how hypocritical or disgusting muslims can be as people. To say that I know much more than you about how muslims operate would honestly be an understatement.

A real muslim follows islam, your so called friendly muslims are NOT real muslims and are at best cookie cutter muslims who turn a blind eye to verses & hadiths of hate and violence. 

Real muslims ARE fucked people.


----------



## Oda Nobunaga (Jun 12, 2006)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

Holy shit. This was just a couple of miles from where I live. Two shootings in two days in Orlando. This city has gone to the dogs (it's actually been like this for the past ten years, but the travel brochures won't tell you that). My thoughts go to the families of those killed.


----------



## Ham and Egger (Dec 13, 2005)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



Gandhi said:


> This is a very dishonest conversation you're putting fourth there.
> 
> Christianity is a death cult as well that needs to be addressed more (keyword is more), however unlike islam it has been mocked and addressed to no end by the west in all sorts of media to the point where it is a dying faith. Mocking islam however serves as mostly a taboo act in the west to _"respect muslims"_. Why should anyone not mock or criticize islam? Why shouldn't society vilify a cult that JUSTIFIES this terrorist's acts?
> 
> ...


So what do you propose should be done with the Muslim people?


----------



## deepelemblues (Sep 26, 2011)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



asdf0501 said:


> maybe but at least i understand the difference between raw numbers and proportions.
> 
> You can also check that


In 2014 the US had ~8,100 gun murders.

In 2014 Argentina had ~1,300 gun murders.

Let's try 2013

US: ~8,400
Argentina: ~1,200

2012

US: ~8,900
Argentina: ~1,100


2011

US: ~8,600
Argentina: ~850
2010:

US: ~8,900
Argentina: ~850

Wow, it's almost like the implications of this statement here



> How is it that a country like Argentina has literally double our homicide rate, yet we have more firearm-related homicides each year?


Are complete bullshit!

The answer of course is that gun murders are about 2/3 of US murders yearly and gun murders are only about 50% of Argentine murders yearly. Gun murders still track closely with comparisons of total population which of course is the opposite of what he was implying but whatever, puppies die, etc.

8x larger sample size, you'd expect 8x larger results... which is very close to what the actual results are. The implication that America is somehow greatly different and worse than Argentina when it comes to gun murders is, of course, false.

Now to get back to reality instead of stupid anti-gun fantasies, Democratic Congressman from CA Adam Schiff who has a reputation as a good source of reliable info on national security/terrorism issues has said DHS told him that the shooter had recently pledged allegiance to Islamic State.


----------



## Stinger Fan (Jun 21, 2006)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



Reaper said:


> Yeah, because Muslims walk around with the word MUSLIM slapped on their foreheads therefore immediately identifiable.
> 
> fpalm


You misinterpreted what I said completely but that's fine. It isn't difficult to determine what kind of violent crime certain groups of people do, generally speaking white people commit gun crimes and you'd have heard the gunmen was white the moment the story broke. Just look at the George Zimmerman thing, they labeled him white despite being Latino, they practically ignored that he was Latino. Usually they know who the shooter is, what race, culture and creed they are very shortly after the news breaks if not immediately. Say what you will about "Muslim" being slapped on peoples foreheads but I find it hard to believe no one knew, let alone refusing to report it still after the news came out. 

You can play the politically correct card all you want but you and I both know if he wasn't Muslim his race(and religious affiliation) would be all over the news much quicker.



Miss Sally said:


> The same thing happened with San Bern and the media was saying it was a white shooter before being actually IDed.


I don't remember that story very well so I can't comment


----------



## Miss Sally (Jul 14, 2014)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



RetepAdam. said:


> I never said anything about extreme gun control. Shit, I never even laid out exactly what my position on increased gun control was. But as soon as those two words are mentioned, it doesn't matter if the person proposing stricter laws is asking for an inch or for a mile, there's a group of people who are committed to shutting down any legislation whatsoever. Doesn't matter what it is. "You think private sales should require background checks? That's un-American! You're trying to take my guns away!"
> 
> I also agree with your point that religion has the propensity for being incredibly shitty from time to time. I wish people would take it less seriously. It's great for bringing communities together, but when you start using it as your moral compass, that's when you find yourself in danger of veering into "GOD HATES ****!" territory.
> 
> As for the issue of who's out there committing all these acts of terrorism... You seem to be quite content to attribute the lion's share of terrorism to Muslims. Internationally, you're probably correct. I do at least hear about it more than any other religion, and ISIS is obviously a terrorist state. Domestically, I guess it just depends on your definition of terrorism. :draper2


You're right you have not, I apologize for that.


----------



## Reaper (Sep 4, 2013)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



Stinger Fan said:


> You misinterpreted what I said completely but that's fine. It isn't difficult to determine what kind of violent crime certain groups of people do, generally speaking white people commit gun crimes and you'd have heard the gunmen was white the moment the story broke. Just look at the George Zimmerman thing, they labeled him white despite being Latino, they practically ignored that he was Latino. Usually they know who the shooter is, what race, culture and creed they are very shortly after the news breaks if not immediately. Say what you will about "Muslim" being slapped on peoples foreheads but I find it hard to believe no one knew, let alone refusing to report it still after the news came out.
> 
> You can play the politically correct card all you want but you and I both know if he wasn't Muslim his race(and religious affiliation) would be all over the news much quicker.
> 
> ...


I didn't play any card. I just point out why it took them only just a little bit longer. Seriously dude stop making something out of nothing. I know you guys are celebrating hate the muzzies day again on this site but at least try to be a little logical. 

It doesn't take any longer. In fact I remember explicitly that it took them several hours after the planned parenthood shooting as well. 

You guys will reach for anything and that's also pretty sad in situations like this.


----------



## Smarkout (Apr 9, 2015)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



nucklehead88 said:


> How much more is it going to take? How much blood is enough to change the laws?
> 
> "It's my 2nd amendment right as an American to bear arms"
> 
> Yea well it fucking shouldn't be. But yea keep it up with the amazing mass shooting track record you guys have.


We do all realize that this was a "gun free zone" correct?

Criminals aren't going to abide by the law because they are..... criminals.


----------



## Gandhi (Sep 15, 2012)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



Ham and Egger said:


> So what do you propose should be done with the Muslim people?


They should be called out more in all forms of media, in public, in schools, in politics, _everywhere_.

All TRULY peaceful people from muslim groups will leave islam (Group A), the intellectually dishonest ones will pretend islam is peaceful and this group is the most aided group currently (Group B), and the REAL muslims will show their true disgusting colors and follow islam's savage laws (Group C). Group A will be a great asset to the west, Group B will be a laughing stock the more and more islam becomes more vilified/mocked by society and will eventually join Group A out of pressure, and Group C will be fought and arrested or killed in acts of self defense. So in the end, you will get help from allies, and throw the trash out. Simple.

Muslims need to be _pressured_, we need to corner them on their beliefs more because even the so called moderates help promote the same cult ISIS follows and indirectly support them. We shouldn't care about how hurt moderate muslims would be emotionally, we should care about the honorable thing and that is to make sure islam dies as a practicing faith worldwide. We can't keep lying to people about islam, it hurts everybody.

There needs to be a war against islam, and everybody who values western integrity must join said war.


----------



## Marv95 (Mar 9, 2011)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



wkdsoul said:


> why is this a terrorist act, and not a hate crime? whats the political part/statement?


Maybe because ISIS warned about this kind of attack happening? Maybe he bragged about having ties to terrorism?

http://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local/Report-ISIS-Targets-Hundreds-of-Floridians--382357381.html
http://dailycaller.com/2016/06/12/fbi-suspect-bragged-about-ties-to-terrorist-organizations/


----------



## Callisto (Aug 9, 2009)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

The perpetrator was on a terror watch list prior. Simple background checks would have barred him from even getting a license if they were law and enforced, let alone two.

If want to continue to ignore the flaw of current US gun policies, then be my guest. But know you are being ignorant and delusional.


----------



## ★Th0t Patr0L★ (Oct 22, 2013)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

All these poor people. So goddamn tragic.

Edit: I hate to do this because to me it's tacky as fuck and I do think there needs to be some type of legal changes and adjusts made, but uh, pushing the idea of banning civilians having guns flat out will solve nothing and it's childish to think it will. People who go with the intention of shooting up gay bars are hardly upstanding citizens who would go through getting a gun permit and whatnot. No, they're going to do it illegally and obtain it from the numerous guns already in circulation or smuggle them in. Yes, there needs to be change, but it's not that simple.

My thoughts go out to friends and family. I hope all those injured but still with us are okay and make a good recovery.


----------



## wkdsoul (Apr 2, 2012)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



Marv95 said:


> Maybe because ISIS warned about this kind of attack happening? Maybe he bragged about having ties to terrorism?
> 
> http://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local/Report-ISIS-Targets-Hundreds-of-Floridians--382357381.html
> http://dailycaller.com/2016/06/12/fbi-suspect-bragged-about-ties-to-terrorist-organizations/


Cheers. just wondered.


----------



## birthday_massacre (Jan 30, 2013)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



deepelemblues said:


> No it doesn't. America does not have more mass shootings than any other country in the world. America's not even in the top 20.


Im not sure where you get your info from but the US is NUMBER ONE in the world when it comes to the number of mass shootings

http://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-leads-world-in-mass-shootings-1443905359
They have more mass shooting than the next 10 combined











http://www.cnn.com/2015/08/27/health/u-s-most-mass-shootings/



The US averaged more than one mass shooting per day last year , no other country came close to that.





Smarkout said:


> We do all realize that this was a "gun free zone" correct?
> 
> Criminals aren't going to abide by the law because they are..... criminals.


Criminals never look at what a gun free zone is or not, they don't care about that, they always go to a location that has some kind of meaning to them.


----------



## asdf0501 (May 31, 2009)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



deepelemblues said:


> In 2014 the US had ~8,100 gun murders.
> 
> In 2014 Argentina had ~1,300 gun murders.
> 
> ...


Lol
Satistics don't work in that way.... 

The original implication was that the violent crimes rates are similar, yet the disparity between gun accidents in the violent crimes is pretty disimilar. Let's analize that claim

http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/Argentina/United-States/Crime

Yeah, the normal effect is 8 times bigger which you expect on a sample 8 times bigger (which is also false, but whatever) but the disparity between the levels of gun violence inside the rate of violent crimes is another thing.

Btw a link for your number would be nice as i don't know if they are per a certain numbers of habitants (which also annhiltaes your point r what).

But i was pointing, more than the argentinian example, to this myth of "america has more population hence x example isn't valid" which is rampant not only here but in media, advocating for ignorance. Again the point of using rates inside some rates is just to point certain bias controling by size, which in America is obviously present by guns crime being a propense for violent crimes.

This doesn't need even to be tied to laws on guns by itself but to the culture americans have on guns which is another entire point, but your, and some other, defensiveness on the issue is almost lovely

but well, i don't even know with you anymore, i swear.

edit: ohh look, wikipedia is also your friend
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate

edit2: lol Look at the ratio per 100,000 People on gun deaths
http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/united-states
http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/argentina


----------



## skypod (Nov 13, 2014)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

I don't believe guns should be taken away from citizens, because clearly the country's fucked now that too many have been mass produced and are in the wrong hands. There's no turning back now and America will always be the shoot up country.

However I find it interesting that ANY conversation about guns and the types of guns people want for self defence (you know those guns that are ideal for mass shooting situations but people seem to want in their home to stop a burglar) ends up in an argument about rights and neither side wants to budge. And don't give me that whole government might takeover New World Order tyranny bullshit.

As usual the world is filled with two people on either sides of the room shouting at each other and nobody wants to compromise, and thus, nothing is done. Depressing.


----------



## Gandhi (Sep 15, 2012)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

I watched this AS A MUSLIM when I was a child, cried my eyes out BECAUSE I KNEW HE WAS RIGHT.






Shortly later, I left islam and have never looked back. I will NEVER stop speaking against islam.

Stop fucking caring about muslims feelings on their attatchment to islam, make them fucking become noble enough to LEAVE ISLAM. These people need to get their shit together, and muslim apologists ruin it.


----------



## KO Bossy (Oct 23, 2011)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

Can someone remind me why its so important for Americans to have guns, again?


This shooting has just given Trump even more support.


----------



## Punkhead (Dec 29, 2011)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

This is fucked up. And he's a muslim terrorist too. R.I.P. to those who died and fuck terrorism.


----------



## Malakai (Jan 10, 2014)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



nucklehead88 said:


> How much more is it going to take? How much blood is enough to change the laws?
> 
> "It's my 2nd amendment right as an American to bear arms"
> 
> Yea well it fucking shouldn't be. But yea keep it up with the amazing mass shooting track record you guys have.


Banning guns will only leave the actually law abiding citizens without protection. If a criminal wants a gun, he'll get a gun, law or no law.


----------



## SHIVV-EAUX-EMME-GEEE (Sep 12, 2013)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

Mateen “made a pledge of allegiance to ISIS,” California Rep. Adam Schiff, the top Democrat on the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence, told CNN.

This guy is def.an ISIS inspired Islamic terrorist.


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## Marv95 (Mar 9, 2011)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



KO Bossy said:


> Can someone remind me why its so important for Americans to have guns, again?


2nd Amendment. Guns aren't magically firing rounds at people by themselves. It's the TYPE of people who has them; in this case someone who has ties with Islamic terrorism. Besides bombs were found; he was going to do damage one way or another, in a gun free zone.


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## ST1TCH (Aug 6, 2014)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

A short haiku.


Islam is peaceful
Mass murders are so peaceful.
Disagree? HATE SPEECH


----------



## Reotor (Jan 8, 2016)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

Ramadan is the month of Jihad so not surprised this is Islamic terrorism.


----------



## Gandhi (Sep 15, 2012)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



ST1TCH said:


> A short haiku.
> 
> 
> Islam is peaceful
> ...


----------



## themuel1 (Feb 19, 2004)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



KO Bossy said:


> Can someone remind me why its so important for Americans to have guns, again?


Because a historic text written centuries ago says it's a right....

Also, arms manufacturers and certain groups interests would be hurt badly....

Wonder if those that created the amendment in question would today, if they were alive, be horrified at what the "right to bear arms" has meant for the USA. Different world to the one they initially wrote the amendment for.


----------



## TheGeneticFreak (Feb 27, 2016)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

I don't understand how a guy on a terror watch list is allowed to have a licensed gun. fpalm

Rip to all the victims.


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## sesshomaru (Dec 11, 2006)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

I think the culprit's religion is not what we should be talking about. The guy who shot up the movie theater a while ago was a mentally ill white guy. The media dropped coverage after the information got out. Stop glorifying Islam hatred because one guy is fucked up. There's A LOT of Muslims out there, and one guy in the entire country is a fuckup. Whereas the rest of the Muslims in the US are quietly doing Ramadan.


----------



## ST1TCH (Aug 6, 2014)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



Gandhi said:


>


How dare you suggest that the guy who shot up a gay club and murdered 50+ people did it because of his religion which tells him to murder gay people. It's the gun's fault, and you can't see that because of your white cis privilege.


Seriously though, this is clearly a Muslim hate crime against gays... And those are the two most revered groups among SJW apologists. This means that SJW's are either going to have to admit that Muslim is evil, or gay people deserve to be murdered for being gay.

Decisions, decisions.

Sad part is, I think the Muslims are going to win this.


----------



## ST1TCH (Aug 6, 2014)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



sesshomaru said:


> I think the culprit's religion is not what we should be talking about. The guy who shot up the movie theater a while ago was a mentally ill white guy. The media dropped coverage after the information got out. Stop glorifying Islam hatred because one guy is fucked up. There's A LOT of Muslims out there, and one guy in the entire country is a fuckup. Whereas the rest of the Muslims in the US are quietly doing Ramadan.


To deny that Islam is the most dangerous ideology in the world is supporting the daily death count in the name of Islam.


----------



## Oda Nobunaga (Jun 12, 2006)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

For the US Constitution, here is what Thomas Jefferson had to say about the text.



> "No society can make a perpetual constitution or even a perpetual law. The earth belongs always to the living generation."


The amendments were created for this accommodation. The issue is not "We can't alter it because it's in the constitution and set in stone," the issue is "We can't alter it unless 2/3s of the state legislatures agree to the changes." That's what people don't get. Unless 2/3s agree, it will not happen. It's a complex situation.


----------



## SHIVV-EAUX-EMME-GEEE (Sep 12, 2013)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

This is crazy on an already crazy day.

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/santa-monica-police-arrest-man-901887


----------



## Bret Hart (Mar 16, 2013)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

Jeez so many fuckheads in this World. RIP to the victims.


----------



## TheFranticJane (Dec 22, 2012)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

The issue is not gun control, the issue is how second generation immigrants - bolstered by the left - are engendered of a sense of perpetual victimhood. His parents were from Afghanistan, yet he was born in America, and yet he chose to kill the people he lived alongside, kill people in the country which had taken his family in.

And yet, when the bodies are cold, the Left will go right back to demonising white people, and "white gays" as being insufficiently oppressed to warrant human fucking consideration.
The Left did this, they hopped into bed with Islamic extremism, they turned on gay men if those men happened to be white, and they have done nothing but tell immigrants that they have a right to be angry, and that sheer anger is in itself validation.

Go to Tumblr. Go now, and see some of these people and see how many talk about the joys of racial or gender segregation or outright killing "oppressors".
There's your fucking problem. Not guns.
I can't wait until Trump wins. There's a reckoning coming, and all this shit is going to end.


----------



## Gandhi (Sep 15, 2012)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



ST1TCH said:


> How dare you suggest that the guy who shot up a gay club and murdered 50+ people did it because of his religion which tells him to murder gay people. It's the gun's fault, and you can't see that because of your white cis privilege.
> 
> 
> Seriously though, this is clearly a Muslim hate crime against gays... And those are the two most revered groups among SJW apologists. This means that SJW's are either going to have to admit that Muslim is evil, or gay people deserve to be murdered for being gay.
> ...


I'm not white (am an ex muslim too), so I can get away with criticizing muslims.










..........................................................................................................................

Seriously though, the muslim apologists are making it worse day in an day out.

Germany now justifies PEDOPHILIA for muslims...

*Child Bride Legally Married Under Sharia Law, German Judge Rules* (Link to Article)


----------



## Marv95 (Mar 9, 2011)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



sesshomaru said:


> I think the culprit's religion is not what we should be talking about. The guy who shot up the movie theater a while ago was a mentally ill white guy. The media dropped coverage after the information got out. Stop glorifying Islam hatred because one guy is fucked up. There's A LOT of Muslims out there, and one guy in the entire country is a fuckup. Whereas the rest of the Muslims in the US are quietly doing Ramadan.


It's not glorifying when it's been proven time after time that Islam is incompatible in the west. And yes most Muslims in the US are peaceful. But why won't they publicly denounce groups like Isis?


----------



## nucklehead88 (Dec 17, 2012)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



Malakai said:


> Banning guns will only leave the actually law abiding citizens without protection. If a criminal wants a gun, he'll get a gun, law or no law.


Who said anything about banning them? How about regulating them? How about needing to be trained and licenced by the state to own or purchase one? How about making it harder for any idiot to just get one but still leaving it there for responsible gun owners to get one without trouble?


----------



## SHIVV-EAUX-EMME-GEEE (Sep 12, 2013)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

Obama makes a speech and fails to mention Islamic terrorism when the killer swore allegiance to ISIS. What a shock!


----------



## gamegenie (Aug 14, 2011)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



TheFranticJane said:


> The issue is not gun control, the issue is how second generation immigrants - bolstered by the left - are engendered of a sense of perpetual victimhood. His parents were from Afghanistan, yet he was born in America, and yet he chose to kill the people he lived alongside, kill people in the country which had taken his family in.
> 
> And yet, when the bodies are cold, the Left will go right back to *demonising white people, and "white gays" as being insufficiently oppressed to warrant human fucking consideration.*
> The Left did this, they hopped into bed with Islamic extremism, they turned on gay men if those men happened to be white, and they have done nothing but tell immigrants that they have a right to be angry, and that sheer anger is in itself validation.
> ...


What does race have to do with this?











THE SHIV said:


> Obama makes a speech and fails to mention Islamic terrorism when the killer swore allegiance to ISIS. What a shock!


He said it was terrorism.


----------



## nucklehead88 (Dec 17, 2012)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



TheFranticJane said:


> The issue is not gun control, the issue is how second generation immigrants - bolstered by the left - are engendered of a sense of perpetual victimhood. His parents were from Afghanistan, yet he was born in America, and yet he chose to kill the people he lived alongside, kill people in the country which had taken his family in.
> 
> And yet, when the bodies are cold, the Left will go right back to demonising white people, and "white gays" as being insufficiently oppressed to warrant human fucking consideration.
> The Left did this, they hopped into bed with Islamic extremism, they turned on gay men if those men happened to be white, and they have done nothing but tell immigrants that they have a right to be angry, and that sheer anger is in itself validation.
> ...


You can fuck right off. I'm a "leftist" and live in a "leftist" country and guess what? We are one of the most accepting countries on the planet. We have large gay neighborhoods. You don't see any of this "safe zone, social justice" crap here. Know what else you don't see here? MASS SHOOTINGS ON A DAY TO DAY BASIS. Know why? WE HAVE GUN REGULATIONS.


----------



## Miss Sally (Jul 14, 2014)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

It seems someone in Cali got pulled over with loads of weapons and stuff in their car, probably not related to this but it was supposedly near some pride thing. I'm unsure about it all, don't have all the information but it could be that this won't be the only mass shooting this month.


----------



## nucklehead88 (Dec 17, 2012)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

Fuck it, any of you Americans that are tired of the gun violence and hate killing in your country are more than welcome to come move here. We don't even have to lock our doors at night and not once in my 28 years on this planet, have I once felt like I needed a gun for protection. You can walk the streets here and not be worried.


----------



## TheFranticJane (Dec 22, 2012)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



gamegenie said:


> What does race have to do with this?


The Left defends homosexuals so long as they are either women, or PoC. White gay men, on the other hand, are apparently "oppressors", and don't now fit into their worldview.
Likewise, the ease with which Leftist activists use terms like "demon", "cracker", and so on to describe white people makes it harder for second generation immigrants to intergrate when they are being fed a consistent narrative that white people aren't people at all and, unless they happen to be female or the right kind of transgendered, are uniformly evil.

This is all about race. Because if racial tensions had not been heated up for so long, people like this shooter might have actually intergrated more into society.
Don't go calling an entire race of people evil, and then cry when immigrants refuse to adapt to their new land.


----------



## wkdsoul (Apr 2, 2012)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

Just link to the same statements, arguments and posts from the last time.. more repetitive than Ghandi threads... 

Its all been said before and it'll all get said again next time..


----------



## Miss Sally (Jul 14, 2014)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



TheFranticJane said:


> The Left defends homosexuals so long as they are either women, or PoC. White gay men, on the other hand, are apparently "oppressors", and don't now fit into their worldview.
> Likewise, the ease with which Leftist activists use terms like "demon", "cracker", and so on to describe white people makes it harder for second generation immigrants to intergrate when they are being fed a consistent narrative that white people aren't people at all and, unless they happen to be female or the right kind of transgendered, are uniformly evil.
> 
> This is all about race. Because if racial tensions had not been heated up for so long, people like this shooter might have actually intergrated more into society.
> Don't go calling an entire race of people evil, and then cry when immigrants refuse to adapt to their new land.


Well not to derail the topic but the trans thing is kind of surprising to me, not to long ago to black girls beat up a trans girl at a McDonalds which was caught on film, the violence was recorded and the staff did nothing to help. Nothing really came of it, now suddenly people care about transsexuals.


----------



## Stormbringer (May 3, 2008)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

How is this not in rants yet?!


----------



## Gandhi (Sep 15, 2012)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



DX-Superkick said:


> How is this not in rants yet?!


Nobody will attempt to discuss this in a civil manner in rants.

Rants is mostly for dumb shit, leave this thread here.


----------



## Chloe (Apr 1, 2014)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

MURICA', get on the level of other countries who don't have mass shootings every other month fuckheads.


----------



## TheFranticJane (Dec 22, 2012)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



Miss Sally said:


> Well not to derail the topic but the trans thing is kind of surprising to me, not to long ago to black girls beat up a trans girl at a McDonalds which was caught on film, the violence was recorded and the staff did nothing to help. Nothing really came of it, now suddenly people care about transsexuals.


They don't care about trans women because, to rad-fems, trans women are still just men, and rad-fems are higher on the oppression totem pole than trans women.

I am sure, even now, there are people _only_ mourning the deaths of those gay people who had the appropriate skin colour. I am sure, if you delved deep enough, you could find many people chuckling at the white victims. Or, my personal favourite, the ever-present Muslim contrarian bringing up the death toll in Syria or Iraq, and weepily asking _WHY DOES NO ONE CARE ABOUT US?!!!!!_
It is an utterly perverse philosophy, and I hold it accountable for this.


----------



## SHIVV-EAUX-EMME-GEEE (Sep 12, 2013)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



Willow said:


> MURICA', get on the level of other countries who don't have mass shootings every other month fuckheads.


Blame "Murica" for a murderous act of Islamic terrorism. How progressive of you.


----------



## stevefox1200 (Jul 7, 2009)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



Willow said:


> MURICA', get on the level of other countries who don't have mass shootings every other month fuckheads.


It was a terrorist attack, try reading more than the first page

Also I said MOVE ALONG in an orderly fashion to "is Islam violent", not "stay around and bitch"

Don't make me use my tazer


----------



## Chloe (Apr 1, 2014)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



THE SHIV said:


> Blame "Murica" for a murderous act of Islamic terrorism. How progressive of you.


Voice of reason: "Maybe we should do something about the availability of guns since people are getting shot up?"

MURICA: "Nah, 2ND AMENDMENT m8."

:kobelol


----------



## Mr. WrestleMania (Oct 16, 2012)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

Because terrorists won't be able to get guns because of a law. Because they also didn't find bombs with the guy, too..

:heyman6


----------



## 4everEyebrowRaisin (Feb 25, 2012)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

The fallout from these events always brings out the worst in people. 

You get the folks who offer sincere, heartfelt condolences and speak very little on the matter again. 

_Then_ you get retards who ramble on and on about shit they have no real understanding of just to have their voices heard.

R.I.P to all of the victims. What a fucking senseless tragedy.


----------



## gamegenie (Aug 14, 2011)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



TheFranticJane said:


> *The Left defends homosexuals *so *long as they are either women, or People of Color.* *White gay men, *on the other hand, are apparently "oppressors", and *don't now fit into their worldview.*
> Likewise, the ease with which* Leftist activists use terms like "demon", "cracker", and so on to describe white people* *makes *it harder for *second generation immigrants* to intergrate when they* are being fed a consistent narrative that white gay people aren't people at all and*, unless they happen to be female or the right kind of transgendered, are uniformly evil.
> 
> This is all about race.* Because if racial tensions had not been heated up for so long, people like this shooter might have actually intergrated more into society.*
> Don't go calling an entire race of people evil, and then cry when immigrants refuse to adapt to their new land.


Are you kidding me?









Where is the evidence of this discrimination singled out to white gay men? 

Race and Politics have nothing to do with this event that has unfolded today. 

These murders were done by an extremist.


----------



## Chloe (Apr 1, 2014)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



stevefox1200 said:


> It was a terrorist attack, try reading more than the first page
> 
> Also I said MOVE ALONG in an orderly fashion to "is Islam violent", not "stay around and bitch"
> 
> Don't make me use my tazer


So a terrorist was able to get guns in MURICA? Wow, that's almost as bad those two Columbine boys being able to get some. 

"Greatest country in the world", apparently. :duck


----------



## CM Chump (Jun 25, 2014)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

Stats don't lie. Just look at America compared to other countries without such readily available access to guns. Less shootings. It's not that fucking hard.


----------



## amhlilhaus (Dec 19, 2013)

Oh, so all you knee jerk assholes in the 'take all the guns away' crowd, what you gotta say now? 

Its why you should always wait before making comments

This tragedy is another reason us citizens with a brain will never disarm:

TERRORISTS WILL NEVER PUT THEIR GUNS DOWN, NEITHER WILL WE


----------



## stevefox1200 (Jul 7, 2009)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



Willow said:


> So a terrorist was able to get guns in MURICA? Wow, that's almost as bad those two Columbine boys being able to get some.
> 
> "Greatest country in the world", apparently. :duck


He had homemade bombs in his trunk

I am about to use my pepper spray for noncompliance


----------



## gamegenie (Aug 14, 2011)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



Willow said:


> So a terrorist was able to get guns in MURICA? Wow, that's almost as bad those two Columbine boys being able to get some.
> 
> "Greatest country in the world", apparently. :duck


It was revealed that the killer had established ties to ISIS. 

15 years ago they [terrorists] were able to get three commercial jet airliners.


----------



## amhlilhaus (Dec 19, 2013)

CM Chump said:


> Stats don't lie. Just look at America compared to other countries without such readily available access to guns. Less shootings. It's not that fucking hard.


Yes, terrorists love those countries too, theyre just busy at the moment. Theyll get to you guys sooner or later.

Not that fucking hard


----------



## Mr. WrestleMania (Oct 16, 2012)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

I also love how some people think if a law gets passed that all guns are suddenly going to disappear into thin air. :lol Because, you know, it's not easy for some of these people to break the law. It's never happened before! I know. Next they should pass a law banning bombs, since they found bombs on the guy, as well.

Hilarious.


----------



## TheFranticJane (Dec 22, 2012)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



gamegenie said:


> Are you kidding me?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


An extremist who, had he aired his grievances in these enlightened circles, would have doubtlessly been applauded. Because no matter how stupid, violent or homophobic he is, him being angry is an act of "political revolution" and "valid hate of the Oppressor™"

Society babies people like this, tells them that because of their race or faith they can do no wrong, and then wonders why they kill people or turn into raving bigoted fanatics.

Want more proof? Look how many of these fucks rushed in to defend Eric Sheppard when he was trampling on the American flag, look how many still defended him when he sent out a manifesto saying how much he wanted to kill white men and how only white women were okay because they could have brown babies.

If this shooter had lived, I wager he would have been lionised. And, wouldn't you know it, even a cursory glance at Tumblr yielded me the typical bleatings about a "false flag" operation - because he was simply the wrong colour to have done something so evil, it had to be a white plot!


----------



## amhlilhaus (Dec 19, 2013)

4everEyebrowRaisin said:


> The fallout from these events always brings out the worst in people.
> 
> You get the folks who offer sincere, heartfelt condolences and speak very little on the matter again.
> 
> ...


Its not senseless. 

Islamic extremism makes plenty of sense

We just dont like the message, and think by appeasing the community that aids, comforts, and abets them that it will make them stop


----------



## Mr. WrestleMania (Oct 16, 2012)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

Pass a law limiting guns. That'll stop terrorists!

:done


----------



## gamegenie (Aug 14, 2011)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



ShowStopper said:


> I also love how some people think if a law gets passed that all guns are suddenly going to disappear into thin air. :lol Because, you know, it's not easy for some of these people to break the law. It's never happened before! I know. Next they should pass a law banning bombs, since they found bombs on the guy, as well.
> 
> Hilarious.


True. 

Metal detectors at the entry with armed bouncers could have stopped this guy from carrying out his act too.


----------



## Gandhi (Sep 15, 2012)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



ShowStopper said:


> Because terrorists won't be able to get guns because of a law. Because they also didn't find bombs with the guy, too..
> 
> :heyman6


OMGZ BAN BOMBS!!!!!!1111111111

like omg i hate how america allows citizens to carry grenades in public!!!oneoneoneoneone

why cant they be civilized like australia or canada and BAN BOMBS?!?!?!?!?


----------



## dashing_man (Dec 3, 2014)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

Its bloody Wild Wild West all over again people. We are going back to our original state smh.


----------



## Jaunties (May 21, 2015)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

I don't even know why anyone is wasting their time arguing with each other after Obama's speech a few minutes ago. If you didn't get his total apathy from that speech, with his rambling condolences and trying to appease both the no guns allowed crowd AND no terrorism crowd while offering nothing else.. I don't know what to tell you. Nothing is changing and you should have learned that already after the Sandy shootings. We're getting the same old shit.


----------



## Mr. WrestleMania (Oct 16, 2012)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



Gandhi said:


> OMGZ BAN BOMBS!!!!!!1111111111


Those bans will really stop criminals! :lol


----------



## Chloe (Apr 1, 2014)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



amhlilhaus said:


> Oh, so all you knee jerk assholes in the 'take all the guns away' crowd, what you gotta say now?
> 
> Its why you should always wait before making comments
> 
> ...


The gun-toting, beer-drinking, ******* stereotype here on WF. :sodone


----------



## Malakai (Jan 10, 2014)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

I'm of the firm belief that it is the individual that is the problem, not the beliefs or the guns or whatever. Islam did not kill people. A gun did not kill people. A HUMAN killed people. 

Let's quit throwing the blame around just because it's easier to digest tragedy that way. We all need a reason why. "He was a terrorist" "He hated gays" "Islam is hatred" "Guns should be banned or at least regulated" Notice how the blame is always shifted to something else rather than the actual shooter, be it gays, Islam, guns, whatever. Why not just say "This guy was a fuckwad" and leave it at that? Anytime the blame IS pinned on the actual guilty party, its usually enhanced with a "because ____" 
"He did it BECAUSE _he's muslim_" "He did it BECAUSE _guns are easy to get_" 

We don't have to point a finger at anything other than the guy that pulled the trigger. Let's stop making excuses and blaming everything else and just come to the understanding that some of us are just fucking monsters.


----------



## gamegenie (Aug 14, 2011)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



TheFranticJane said:


> An extremist who, had he aired his grievances in these enlightened circles, would have doubtlessly been applauded.* Because no matter how stupid, violent or homophobic he is, him being angry is an act of "political revolution" and "valid hate of the Oppressor™"*
> 
> *Society babies people like this, tells them that because of their race or faith they can do no wrong,* and then wonders why they kill people or turn into raving bigoted fanatics.


no Extremist as in religious extremist. 

An extremist is someone who takes their religious beliefs to a fanatical level causing them to act in ways that are not understood by the general public. An extremist may believe in using force, fear, or violence as means to bring about religious change. An extremist may take action in order to indoctrinate their beliefs that play on fear. Often religious extremism is seen in opposition to a person, people, or government that is acting against the fundamental beliefs of a religion.


----------



## Marv95 (Mar 9, 2011)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

And Islamic State claims responsibility. Still think guns are _the_ problem?

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-f...=topNews&utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=Social


----------



## Arcade (Jun 9, 2010)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



Jaunties said:


> I don't even know why anyone is wasting their time arguing with each other after Obama's speech a few minutes ago. If you didn't get his total apathy from that speech, with his rambling condolences and trying to appease both the no guns allowed crowd AND no terrorism crowd while offering nothing else.. I don't know what to tell you. Nothing is changing and you should have learned that already after the Sandy shootings. We're getting the same old shit.


Exactly. Obama's speech is just the generic mass shooting speech, as nothing will really change after this incident, people will just move on to the next mass shooting, and the endless loop will continue.


----------



## stevefox1200 (Jul 7, 2009)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

In weird way this is a massive blessing to both political sides

The left can argue the EVIL of black assault weapons and the right can argue the UNCHECKED terrorism that is operation in their own borders

Are both right, ehh most likely but its a much better story when only one is right and the other is stupid and evil and CAUSING THESE THINGS TO HAPPEN


----------



## ErickRowan_Fan (Feb 8, 2014)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

Obama didn't say much, because he knows that this is going to be categorized as a terrorist attack, and a terrorist attack will force the U.S. to combat terrorism once again. We know how the last attempts ended up, but the United States cannot be made to look weak either by having some foreign terrorist organization constantly take credit for attacks that were committed on American soil.

Once all of the facts are out, Obama will probably call for a stronger U.S. presence in the Middle East, to deal with ISIS. No domestic policies will be changed because this is ultimately going to go down in history as a foreign terrorist attack, rather than a domestic problem.


----------



## birthday_massacre (Jan 30, 2013)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



Punkhead said:


> This is fucked up. And he's a muslim terrorist too. R.I.P. to those who died and fuck terrorism.



He is also an american citizen. Just sayin


----------



## Miss Sally (Jul 14, 2014)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



ErickRowan_Fan said:


> Obama didn't say much, because he knows that this is going to be categorized as a terrorist attack, and a terrorist attack will force the U.S. to combat terrorism once again. We know how the last attempts ended up, but the United States cannot be made to look weak either by having some foreign terrorist organization constantly take credit for attacks that were committed on American soil.
> 
> Once all of the facts are out, Obama will probably call for a stronger U.S. presence in the Middle East, to deal with ISIS. No domestic policies will be changed because this is ultimately going to go down in history as a foreign terrorist attack, rather than a domestic problem.


If the Cali incident was truly another terrorist plot we got lucky that another didn't happen to another pride event. No idea if it's linked but seems that there is movement for more terrorist attacks.


----------



## Dr. Middy (Jan 21, 2015)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

It's funny yet sad that I see this and just know within minutes that nothing will change, and it'll soon happen again in the future. We'll soon have another mass shooting, and then the arguments over Islam, gun laws, and so on will just continue on like clockwork. 

Do I think gun laws would have made a difference here? Fuck if I know, but I'm sure it'll help in other related situations perhaps. 

Do I think that Islam is a real issue? Judging by all I've seen and the sheer number of radical muslims that exist, coupled with the teachings of the religion itself, I think it really is a huge issue now. But I mean, I know people who are muslim and seem like perfectly fine people, it's kinda difficult to have somebody else tell you that whatever you've believed in your entire life leads to inherent evil and you should stop practicing it. 

Still, I read where authorities and police who were walking into the club said that the hardest thing was to hear all of the cell phones of the victims still ringing, most likely from family members and friends who wanted to see if they were alright. Fuck man... this shit sucks for everybody, and it's clearly bringing out the worst in some in here. It's almost impossible for me to be anything other than 100% pessimistic when I hear about this kind of thing now.


----------



## ErickRowan_Fan (Feb 8, 2014)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



Miss Sally said:


> If the Cali incident was truly another terrorist plot we got lucky that another didn't happen to another pride event. No idea if it's linked but seems that there is movement for more terrorist attacks.


ISIS are getting pretty desperate. They are slowly losing the war in the Middle East, so they need to use their brain-washed supporters abroad to commit attacks on foreign soil. People like this are already ready to implode on a moment's notice, but it is an organization like ISIS which gives them the required shove to push them into action. 

There's a lot of hate against the West in the Middle East, and not necessarily without a reason, so a successful attack against a country like the United States or France boosts ISIS's support among the people. They will be happy to take credit for attacks that are even loosely related to the organization, because it only serves to benefit their agenda. Islam, at its root, is an ideology which gravitates towards power and conquest, since after all, Muhammad was a warlord whose main achievement of note was the conquest of Mecca according to Islamic tradition.

ISIS having the United States and the rest of the Western world on its knees, with its terrorist attacks, is a picture which will paint the organization as a powerful entity among fundamentalist Muslims, and they will naturally gravitate towards becoming part of that organization themselves due to the nature of their religion.


----------



## Miss Sally (Jul 14, 2014)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



ErickRowan_Fan said:


> ISIS are getting pretty desperate. They are slowly losing the war in the Middle East, so they need to use their brain-washed supporters abroad to commit attacks on foreign soil. People like this are already ready to implode on a moment's notice, but it is an organization like ISIS which gives them the required shove to push them into action.
> 
> There's a lot of hate against the West in the Middle East, and not necessarily without a reason, so a successful attack against a country like the United States or France boosts ISIS's support among the people. They will be happy to take credit for attacks that are even loosely related to the organization, because it only serves to benefit their agenda. Islam, at its root, is an ideology which gravitates towards power and conquest, since after all, Muhammad was a warlord whose main achievement of note was the conquest of Mecca according to Islamic tradition.
> 
> ISIS having the United States and the rest of the Western world on its knees, with its terrorist attacks, is a picture which will paint the organization as a powerful entity among fundamentalist Muslims, and they will naturally gravitate towards becoming part of that organization themselves due to the nature of their religion.


My real concern is that with ISIS slowly losing yet managing to make an alliance with another Islamic faction will mean more of these groups will start banding together. There is a lot of chaos going on and if ISIS does indeed start to lose they'll send in more fighters disguised as refugees into Europe and elsewhere. If these factions start making alliances, they could really step up terrorism globally.


----------



## Buffy The Vampire Slayer (May 31, 2011)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

*I am disgusted on what went on in my town. It is disgraceful and not mention fucked up. I hate people like him. It's people like that makes me give up hope in humanity. I love my town and everyone in it. He deserves to rot for what he did. My prayers and condolences goes out to the many families that lost their family members. *


----------



## Draykorinee (Aug 4, 2015)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

I'm anti guns but this isn't really a gun law issue, its still a gun culture issue to a degree but thats not something really fixed by laws alone. This event should be seen for what it was, a terrorist attack that probably wouldn't be affected by strict gun laws.


----------



## Super Sexy Steele (Aug 16, 2002)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

My condolences to the people who died and to the people who were seriously injured in this horrible tragedy.


----------



## Cowabunga (Oct 9, 2010)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

Horrible.


----------



## Simply Flawless (Mar 28, 2011)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



draykorinee said:


> My favourite tweet from someone who was there is
> 
> 
> 
> How sycophantic do you have to be to claim divine intervention and that someone is good because other people died and not you ><


Sadly there's no cure for being a cunt :draper2


----------



## ST1TCH (Aug 6, 2014)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



Gandhi said:


> I'm not white (am an ex muslim too), so I can get away with criticizing muslims.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Holy shit, you get to do whatever you want with no consequences then. Cheers.


----------



## stevefox1200 (Jul 7, 2009)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

To lighten things up a CNN opinion piece by a lawyer said that better gun control would "cut off one of the heads of this terror-bent Medusa."

Medusa had one head, and if he meant the Hydra you weren't supposed to cuts its heads off without fire


----------



## LoneRanger1 (Jan 22, 2016)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

RIP to the victims. My heart goes out to their families and I wish a speedy recovery to all those injured as well. I think the gay community has made a difficult but correct decision to carry on with pride. Acts of terrorism are sadly all too common nowadays but we need to remain strong and stand united in the face of it. Lastly I think its important to give support to the Islamic community. At a time where they often get stereotyped based on a minority who have hijacked their religion and twisted its interpretation to radicalise others and preach hate we need to remind ourselves the vast vast majority of Muslims out there are decent people no different at heart to you or I.


----------



## Flesh Fest (May 21, 2015)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

Great piece written by Milo Yiannopoulos for Breitbart about the massacre at Pulse Nightclub. I'd recommend you read it.


"The Left Chose Islam Over Gays and Now 100 People Are Dead Or Maimed in Orlando"


----------



## seancarleton77 (Jul 4, 2006)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

This story crushed me, but you need to know religion had very little, if anything to do with this. The shooter was a security guard who was rejected by the police. He loved working out, hated women, and he even had an NYPD shirt, which he posed in for a selfie. He shot up that gay club because he was repulse by seeing men kiss. We're not looking at an "Islamist", we're looking at the kind of man who goes to Trump rallies, eats up NRA propaganda like cereal, and has a Confederate Battle flag hanging in his garage.


----------



## ErickRowan_Fan (Feb 8, 2014)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



seancarleton77 said:


> This story crushed me, but you need to know religion had very little, if anything to do with this. The shooter was a security guard who was rejected by the police. He loved working out, hated women, and he even had an NYPD shirt, which he posed in for a selfie. He shot up that gay club because he was repulse by seeing men kiss. We're not looking at an "Islamist", we're looking at the kind of man who goes to Trump rallies, eats up NRA propaganda like cereal, and has a Confederate Battle flag hanging in his garage.


I don't think you really understand the situation here.

The people who fight for ISIS, the people who support ISIS, aren't exactly religious monks living puritan lives, nobly sacrificing themselves for prophet Muhammad. Pretty far from it. Many of them are young Muslim men, born in the Western world, who eventually feel rejected by the surrounding society, turn to religion and eventually elect to join the ISIS cause, in order to fight back against the West.

We know this kid's father is a known Taleban-apologist, and that the shooter claimed to have made a pilgrimage to Saudi Arabia as proof of his recent "return" to the fold of Islam, after his exploits as a Westerner apparently did not go so well. We also know that he pledged allegiance to ISIS. There's plenty to support that religious motives were involved here. 

Disrespecting women, hating gays, loving guns is pretty much part of the package that comes with fundamentalist Islam.


----------



## Flesh Fest (May 21, 2015)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



seancarleton77 said:


> This story crushed me, but you need to know religion had very little, if anything to do with this. The shooter was a security guard who was rejected by the police. He loved working out, hated women, and he even had an NYPD shirt, which he posed in for a selfie. He shot up that gay club because he was repulse by seeing men kiss. We're not looking at an "Islamist", we're looking at the kind of man who goes to Trump rallies, eats up NRA propaganda like cereal, and has a Confederate Battle flag hanging in his garage.


1. I'm not sure if you're trolling, full of shit, misinformed, or flat-out stupid but the shooter was a registered democrat. Omar Mir Seddique Mateen Florida Voter Information


2. Father of America's most deadly mass shooter wants top Afghan president job and had TV show where he showed support for the Taliban


3. There is a radicalized Imam in Orlando that urges the killing of gays. Imam Speaking in Orlando Said Gays Must Be Killed Out of 'Compassion'


4. He pledged alliegance to ISIS who routinely do this to gays.


5. Under Sharia Law, the execution of gays is allowed and, actually encouraged. This is worrying because Afghanistan migration is surging in the U.S. and 99% of Afghans support Sharia Law.


----------



## Mr. WrestleMania (Oct 16, 2012)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/742069715540037633
So, he's an ISIS Caliphate member. I'm sure he would have obeyed a US gun law, though..

:heyman6


----------



## Oda Nobunaga (Jun 12, 2006)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

I know this is a sensitive topic and there's a lot of passion involved so it's easy to get carried away, but keep the baiting and personal insults out of the discussion.


----------



## CamillePunk (Feb 10, 2011)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

The shooter pledged allegiance to the *Islamic State.*

"Nothing to do with religion! This guy would go to Trump rallies!" 

Easily the stupidest thing I've ever seen on WF.

I guess a couple months ago in Orlando the Husseini Islamic Center invited this guy to come and speak at their center:






I don't know what else to say.


----------



## markoutsmarkout (Dec 30, 2014)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



seancarleton77 said:


> This story crushed me, but you need to know religion had very little, if anything to do with this. The shooter was a security guard who was rejected by the police. He loved working out, hated women, and he even had an NYPD shirt, which he posed in for a selfie. He shot up that gay club because he was repulse by seeing men kiss. *We're not looking at an "Islamist", we're looking at the kind of man who goes to Trump rallies, eats up NRA propaganda like cereal, and has a Confederate Battle flag hanging in his garage.*


The guy that pledged allegiance to ISIS, yelled Allahu Akbar, and was a registered Democrat?


----------



## birthday_massacre (Jan 30, 2013)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



Marv95 said:


> And Islamic State claims responsibility. Still think guns are _the_ problem?
> 
> http://www.reuters.com/article/us-f...=topNews&utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=Social


Yes guns are the problem, he killed those people WITH A GUN and it was with an assault rifle. How is guns not a major part of the problem?

If assault riles were banned, which they should be, he never would've been able kill and injury that many people. That is just a fact. 

And all these people crying about oh Muslim terriorist, or ISIS etc etc.










Over 90% or terrorist acts in the US are from non-muslims.


----------



## Heath V (Apr 9, 2014)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

That's pretty darn sad and scary.


----------



## DesolationRow (Oct 11, 2009)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

The words of the homosexual activist in Orlando droning on and on about how there are still voices of hate and people who want to see homosexuals ensconced in closets and bigoted preachers, et. al., from a couple of hours ago crystalized the matter.

What we are seeing unfold--in the U.S. as well as in Europe--is a war between two religions. 

One is the modern civic religion of universalism and democracy and human rights, incubated as it was during the Enlightenment, represented by liberal neoconservatives on the purported right who argued that dramatically different cultures were just as receptive toward liberal democratic values as they themselves are, and represented by left-liberals through just about everything else under a government here in the U.S. whose ideology is scarcely different from that of Robespierre, and with its own holy days and months such as LGTBQ Pride Month. 

And that is clashing with radical Islam, which has its own holy days. 

The U.S. government and its many proxies in media argued that the wars of liberation in Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Yemen, et. al., were being conducted "there so we do not have to fight them over here." That has scarcely worked out well; moreover, as more native-born Islamist radicals stage attacks, many uncomfortable questions will have to be asked, even if they are utterly politically incorrect to ask. Watching Fox News for five minutes one sees one ex-military official after another arguing for robust air strikes on ISIS; on MSNBC more droning on about "gay pride"; on CNN, the weapon is evidently the problem. 

The very issues of national identity, or what constitutes a nation, as well as the limitations of Western liberalism, will dominate this troubled twenty-first century. The U.S. is presently a massive multicultural state and that is not changing. Perhaps breaking up into Grecian-style city-states could be in the cards, particularly as whole regions become dominated by one culture or another.


----------



## deepelemblues (Sep 26, 2011)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



> If assault riles were banned, which they should be, he never would've been able kill and injury that many people. That is just a fact.


Bombs and handguns say hello. Back in the day they used swords, how could they ever kill so many people with swords? 

An AR-15 is a semi-automatic rifle that is no more or less capable of killing at close range, and no more or less capable of being rapidly fired and reloaded, than a standard handgun.


----------



## KO Bossy (Oct 23, 2011)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

What I don't get is that they've got leaders of the LGBTQ groups up there, giving statements for how this has affected the gay community. Why are they making this about it being a gay club? The guy could have walked in any crowded area and blown 50 people away. This, to me, wasn't about them being gay. Its a tragedy for humanity. ISIS wants the entire WEST to fall. We need all leaders coming together, not giving special treatment to people trying to push an agenda.


----------



## CenaBoy4Life (Jul 31, 2013)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

Regressive leftest will be the end of us all. And any gay person that defends islam is a traitor.

These sjw would rather we die than be called racist against a religion.


----------



## CamillePunk (Feb 10, 2011)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



KO Bossy said:


> What I don't get is that they've got leaders of the LGBTQ groups up there, giving statements for how this has affected the gay community. Why are they making this about it being a gay club? The guy could have walked in any crowded area and blown 50 people away. This, to me, wasn't about them being gay. Its a tragedy for humanity. ISIS wants the entire WEST to fall. We need all leaders coming together, not giving special treatment to people trying to push an agenda.


I don't disagree but to be fair this attack does seem to be motivated by a hatred of gays, which is pretty common in Islamic countries. Before gays get on the defending Islam bandwagon they might want to look at the Middle East and see how gays are actually treated there, as well as various polls that show the opinion of gays Muslims have.


----------



## birthday_massacre (Jan 30, 2013)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



CenaBoy4Life said:


> Regressive leftest will be the end of us all. And any gay person that defends islam is a traitor.
> 
> These sjw would rather we die than be called racist against a religion.


So is any gay that defends christianity also a traitor? Because there are millions of gay christians out there.


----------



## CenaBoy4Life (Jul 31, 2013)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



birthday_massacre said:


> So is any gay that defends christianity also a traitor? Because there are millions of gay christians out there.


Christians are not executing gay people daily.

or shooting up gay clubs.

Wanting marriage to be between a women and man is not even close. So dont even try to go there.


----------



## Stinger Fan (Jun 21, 2006)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



birthday_massacre said:


> So is any gay that defends christianity also a traitor? Because there are millions of gay christians out there.


Not to make this a religious debate because we all know your views on Christianity, but Christians aren't supposed to hate homosexuals or kill them. If people actually understood the religion , maybe people wouldn't have such blind hatred going both ways


----------



## CenaBoy4Life (Jul 31, 2013)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



Stinger Fan said:


> Not to make this a religious debate because we all know your views on Christianity, but Christians aren't supposed to hate homosexuals or kill them. If people actually understood the religion , maybe people wouldn't have such blind hatred going both ways


https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/quran/homosexuality.aspx

https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/quran/homosexuality.aspx

Islam says kill gays. 

Islamic countries execute gays daily. They tie them to chairs and dump them off roofs. It is horrific unhuman barbaric. Islam is a dark age barbaric slave religion for tribal warlords that has no place in a civilized country that accepts all religions, cultures, sexuality, and race.

And regressive leftest that are putting a religion before the lives and protection of a country are traitors. They should be forced to move overseas to live with their so called moderates.

See how long they last before being executed.


----------



## Blackbeard (Apr 23, 2014)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

Wow, my thoughts and prayers go out to all the poor families of the victims :sad:


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## Gandhi (Sep 15, 2012)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



birthday_massacre said:


> So is any gay that defends christianity also a traitor? Because there are millions of gay christians out there.


Lambs to the slaughter.


----------



## nucklehead88 (Dec 17, 2012)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



CenaBoy4Life said:


> https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/quran/homosexuality.aspx
> 
> https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/quran/homosexuality.aspx
> 
> ...





> Leviticus 20:13
> "If a man practices homosexuality, having sex with another man as with a woman, both men have committed a detestable act. They must both be put to death, for they are guilty of a capital offense."


Yea so does Christianity...goof.


----------



## BigVern (May 23, 2016)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



birthday_massacre said:


> So is any gay that defends christianity also a traitor?


Yes.


----------



## gamegenie (Aug 14, 2011)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



CenaBoy4Life said:


> https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/quran/homosexuality.aspx
> 
> https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/quran/homosexuality.aspx
> 
> Islam says kill gays.


False. 

Just as I was reading your crazy post this very question came up on the news which I had to rewind, record, and share.






Islam view on gays is no different than Christianity.


----------



## CenaBoy4Life (Jul 31, 2013)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



nucklehead88 said:


> Yea so does Christianity...goof.


show me christians that follow it literally today.

And I never said it doesn't. I said nobody is today. Nobody does that shit.

Why when muslims commit horrible atrocities do you people go but but but....CHRISTIANS ARE EVIL TOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.

Are you like trying to make excuses for their behavior? I do not understand the argument at all or how Christianity is relevant to the topic at hand. Christians are not trying to set western nations back a thousand years.


----------



## CenaBoy4Life (Jul 31, 2013)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



gamegenie said:


> False.
> 
> Just as I was reading your crazy post this very question came up on the news which I had to rewind, record, and share.
> 
> ...


WOW one man says its not. IT MUST BE TRUE ON MSNBC LOL.

Meanwhile there are a dozen Islamic nations that the LAW for being gay or committing homosexuality IS DEATH. And that sentence is carried out. 

Show me a fucking christian nation today that is doing that? That is not 3rd world africa btw where they chop albinos in half and eat babies. 

And the majority of muslims that migrant to the EU and UK * hope they leave* still support sharia law, death for leaving islam and are against gays.

I dont care if that brown guy you know at school seems peaceful. That is not islam. That is a minority that fits in with the majority. Once you go to an area that is Islamic the penalty for being gay is death.


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## gamegenie (Aug 14, 2011)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



CenaBoy4Life said:


> WOW one man says its not. IT MUST BE TRUE ON MSNBC LOL.
> 
> Meanwhile there are a dozen Islamic nations that the LAW for being gay or committing homosexuality IS DEATH. And that sentence is carried out.
> 
> ...


Why do you ask for a false equivalency. 

You need to learn that there's a fundamental difference between the Laws of God and the Laws of Man. 

You said 'Islam says kill gays', when that's not true. 

The Karan has the very similar laws of God as the 10 commandments referred in the Bible. 













If you said so-in-so Muslim country executes gays. Okay, that's not incorrect, and I don't agree with their actions. But that's not law of God/Alah, that's a man made law. 

The United States used to justify the detainment of Japanese, used to outlaw interracial marriage, had slavery for half of the nation's existence. This was all Man Made laws. Not the Laws of God.


----------



## Marv95 (Mar 9, 2011)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



nucklehead88 said:


> Yea so does Christianity...goof.


According to this, Leviticus 20:13 was written for Jews, not Christians: http://www.gaychristian101.com/Leviticus.html


----------



## Mr. WrestleMania (Oct 16, 2012)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

Interesting..


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/742166564158345217


----------



## birthday_massacre (Jan 30, 2013)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



Stinger Fan said:


> Not to make this a religious debate because we all know your views on Christianity, but Christians aren't supposed to hate homosexuals or kill them. If people actually understood the religion , maybe people wouldn't have such blind hatred going both ways


The bible tells Christians to hate gays.


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## Roxinius (Jul 21, 2014)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

so liberals still blaming the gun not the piece of shit who did this? honestly not a single proposed gun control law would have stopped this guy. he passed a extensive background check to get hired by the private security firm he worked for and nothing was flagged there he passed a background check to buy the glock found at the scene


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## rdw9876 (Jun 13, 2016)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



birthday_massacre said:


> The bible tells Christians to hate gays.


Yeah, but there's a big difference between disagreeing with their lifestyle and executing them by throwing them off roof tops and shooting them in up a night club. Given the preponderance of evidence, equating the Islam with the Judeo-Christian view on homosexuality is absurd.


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## Undertakerowns (Jan 3, 2012)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

This is about homophobia because the father of shooter said the guy saw two men kissing and it infuriated him. Gays are killed in muslim countries just because they are gay. So those saying this is just an act of terror and don't see the connection between Islam and homophobia are misinformed.


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## Rick_James (May 11, 2012)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



gamegenie said:


> False.
> 
> Just as I was reading your crazy post this very question came up on the news which I had to rewind, record, and share.
> 
> ...


MSNBC lol..... come on brah.

It's true that Christianity does have certain parts, for example in the old testament, which encourage violence. The difference is that most Christians do not take that stuff seriously in comparison. On the flip side, while many muslims aren't terrorist or aren't committing human rights violations themselves, they do not have a problem if they see others committing them. Ben Shapiro has a good video on this, explaining that it's far from the minority that believe in violence:






That being said, if the shooter was christian, I think it's pretty clear many on the left would be attacking Christianity. So why not extend the same courtesy to other religions?


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## Gandhi (Sep 15, 2012)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



rdw9876 said:


> Yeah, but there's a big difference between disagreeing with their lifestyle and executing them by throwing them off roof tops and shooting them in up a night club. Given the preponderance of evidence, equating the Islam with the Judeo-Christian view on homosexuality is absurd.


A true christian would want homosexuals dead.

“If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives.” (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

Also, it doesn't matter that this is old testament, as Jesus commands us to follow the old testament.

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill." (Matthew 5:17 NAB)

Christianity is a disgusting death cult.


----------



## Saffiemack (Jun 11, 2016)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

Religion can never explain acts like this. I cannot imagine walking into a venue, taking out a gun, and knowingly ending somebody's life. I don't think I would physically be able to kill someone. People who commit these acts are subhuman. These people are not adherents of a religion, they are simply monsters.


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## markoutsmarkout (Dec 30, 2014)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



birthday_massacre said:


> The bible tells Christians to hate gays.


Actually the Bible teaches to hate *sin*, not people.


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## Gandhi (Sep 15, 2012)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



Saffiemack said:


> Religion can never explain acts like this. I cannot imagine walking into a venue, taking out a gun, and knowingly ending somebody's life. I don't think I would physically be able to kill someone. People who commit these acts are subhuman. These people are not adherents of a religion, they are simply monsters.


....but the religion orders the killing of innocents, how can they not be adherents?



Gandhi said:


> This muslim was FOLLOWING the teachings of islam and his prophet Mo-Ham-Head.
> 
> *From the hadiths*
> 
> ...


Islam is a religion FOR monsters.


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## markoutsmarkout (Dec 30, 2014)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

Why is Christianity even being discussed? It's a complete non-sequitur. The issue is Islam. Not Christianity. Christianity is only brought up to sidetrack and derail the discussion, and refocus the narrative to be anti-Western. This is the default behavior of leftists.


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## FriedTofu (Sep 29, 2014)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



rdw9876 said:


> Yeah, but there's a big difference between disagreeing with their lifestyle and executing them by throwing them off roof tops and shooting them in up a night club. Given the preponderance of evidence, equating the Islam with the Judeo-Christian view on homosexuality is absurd.


You have Christian leaders calling for violence against gays or non-believers too. The difference is secularism limits the influence of such religious leaders in most of the West while Middle-Eastern countries still subscribe to being governed by religion and give weight to those words.

Let's not forget that Christianity had their fair share of sectarian violence for centuries due to said leaders, Christians killing Christians and dragging everyone else into their conflict. Islam is having theirs and dragging everyone else into it with access to more lethal means of killing.


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## rdw9876 (Jun 13, 2016)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



Gandhi said:


> A true christian would want homosexuals dead.
> 
> “If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives.” (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)
> 
> ...


Interpret the Bible as you will, but how many Christians are going out of their way to murder homosexuals (and other "infidels")? I'm not sure what point you're trying to prove. I'll grant that you that both Islam and Christianity have anti-gay sentiments in the Bible and Qaran. The difference is which religion has embraced acceptance and tolerance instead of terrorism.


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## Saffiemack (Jun 11, 2016)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



Gandhi said:


> ....but the religion orders the killing of innocents, how can they not be adherents?
> 
> 
> 
> Islam is a religion FOR monsters.


I don't dispute that point. I simply believe that they don't do these things out of faith, they do it because they are animals. No human being can murder innocent people and feel in any way noble in doing so. It is unnatural, and whether they have been made that way by their religion or not, they are deranged.


----------



## Gandhi (Sep 15, 2012)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



rdw9876 said:


> Interpret the Bible as you will, but how many Christians are going out of their way to murder homosexuals (and other "infidels")? I'm not sure what point you're trying to prove. I'll grant that you that both Islam and Christianity have anti-gay sentiments in the Bible and Qaran. The difference is which religion has embraced acceptance and tolerance instead of terrorism.


Christians who don't kill gay people are hypocrites.

Though there have been cases with christians killing gay people in history, not too far away even.



Saffiemack said:


> I don't dispute that point. I simply believe that they don't do these things out of faith, they do it because they are animals. No human being can murder innocent people and feel in any way noble in doing so. It is unnatural, and whether they have been made that way by their religion or not, they are deranged.


They do it because they believe gay people are perverted wretches. They do think they're being noble. I've spoken to many muslims about this whilst living in the middle east who agree with killing homosexuals, though I have also spoken to hypocritical muslims who disagree with the killings.

Also humans are animals, it's just that some humans understand ethics whilst some don't. I assume when you call someone an _"animal"_ you're just saying they have no moral compass or barely know how to make theirs work. It is natural to kill this way, but not everything that is natural is good so it doesn't matter. I wouldn't doubt that many of these people would be deranged though.


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## rdw9876 (Jun 13, 2016)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



markoutsmarkout said:


> Why is Christianity even being discussed? It's a complete non-sequitur. The issue is Islam. Not Christianity. Christianity is only brought up to sidetrack and derail the discussion, and refocus the narrative to be anti-Western. This is the default behavior of leftists.


Exactly! For whatever reason, the liberals want to blame Christianity, gun control, the GOP etc... The core of the issue is that extremist muslims hate every aspect of western culture and will do anything in their power to disrupt our way of life.


----------



## sesshomaru (Dec 11, 2006)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



rdw9876 said:


> Exactly! For whatever reason, the liberals want to blame Christianity, gun control, the GOP etc... The core of the issue is that extremist muslims hate every aspect of western culture and will do anything in their power to disrupt our way of life.


The terrorist was born in the US. I doubt that his parents fed him anti Western rhetoric his entire life.

He was probably mentally ill, and wanted to watch the world burn.


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## Ronzilla (Feb 25, 2016)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



Gandhi said:


> Christians who don't kill gay people are hypocrites.
> 
> Though there have been cases with christians killing gay people in history, not too far away even.
> 
> ...


Dude you sound like one of them woah..."it is natural to kill this way?" the fuck u smoking bruh


----------



## Saffiemack (Jun 11, 2016)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



Gandhi said:


> Christians who don't kill gay people are hypocrites.
> 
> Also humans are animals, it's just that some humans understand ethics whilst some don't. I assume when you call someone an _"animal"_ you're just saying they have no moral compass or barely know how to make theirs work. It is natural to kill this way, but not everything that is natural is good so it doesn't matter. I wouldn't doubt that many of these people would be deranged though.


It may be natural in the sense of being within nature, but it is against my nature. I doubt I could kill. It is against every instinct I have, and I doubt my body would even let me do it. When I call someone an animal, I mean that they lack the sensibilities that define them as human beings, and therefore behave a savage creatures do. It may be natural for an ape to behave in this way, but it is subhuman.


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## Gandhi (Sep 15, 2012)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



Ronzilla said:


> Dude you sound like one of them woah..."it is natural to kill this way?" the fuck u smoking bruh


Natural is what exists and isn't fictional, natural is what is a part of many human conditions.


----------



## KO Bossy (Oct 23, 2011)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



CamillePunk said:


> I don't disagree but to be fair this attack does seem to be motivated by a hatred of gays, which is pretty common in Islamic countries. Before gays get on the defending Islam bandwagon they might want to look at the Middle East and see how gays are actually treated there, as well as various polls that show the opinion of gays Muslims have.


While this is true, something about this whole thing, to me, doesn't feel like it targeted gays specifically. It felt more like an attack on America, and any place with a ton of traffic that could maximize collateral damage would have done fine, whether it be a gay night club, a crowded bus terminal, downtown during rush hour, etc. Yes, the Islamic views of homosexuality are very negative, but I feel this was more a statement of their views on America as a whole, not as much about their views on gays. 

I mean, they put the LGBTQ leaders on TV and what do they say? We're deeply saddened by this tragedy. They put local police on TV and what do they say? We're deeply saddened by this tragedy. They put the president on TV and what does he say? America is deeply saddened by this tragedy. Everyone you put on TV is going to say that. Why did we need the LGBTQ members to chime in? Just because a minority was targeted doesn't mean we need their community representatives giving their 2 cents. Family and friends? Sure. Others present at the scene? Naturally. But why are we clogging up TV time with the opinions and thoughts of people who weren't even there? Its all gonna be the same thing. 

Look at the Paris attacks. Did they put a bunch of musicians on TV to hear their thoughts? I mean, a bunch of people were shot down during a concert, does ISIS hate music? To me, the media is making it more about it being gay people who were killed than what is truly important-that human beings period were massacred by a religious zealot in cold blood. Not everything has to revolve around some minor discrepancy that we humans have singled out in each other.


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## Ronzilla (Feb 25, 2016)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



Gandhi said:


> Natural is what exists and isn't fictional, natural is what is a part of many human conditions.


you're officially ignored for life for irregular behavior


----------



## KO Bossy (Oct 23, 2011)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



Gandhi said:


> A true christian would want homosexuals dead.
> 
> “If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives.” (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)
> 
> ...


Not...exactly.

I'm not defending the Bible. I think its completely out of date and contains a lot of bullshit.

That being said, yes, there are SOME Christians who take the Bible word for word. Those people are stupid. There are Christians who have developed the ability to think for themselves and take the Bible with a rather large grain of salt. Its more of a guide in most ways, not law. 

I'll be the first person to admit that Christianity has been at the root of some extremely heinous shit in history. But you're generalizing to a big degree here. I was raised Christian (Catholic, specifically). I'm totally cool with gay people. I'm totally cool with just about everything as long as it doesn't hurt other people. I can form my own opinions and think freely to do so. I see the bullshit in Christianity. A lot of contradictory garbage, hate speech and outlandish mumbo-jumbo that they use to control people through fear. That said, not everyone who is a Christian is some gay bashing, intolerant fuck up.


----------



## Gandhi (Sep 15, 2012)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



KO Bossy said:


> Not...exactly.
> 
> I'm not defending the Bible. I think its completely out of date and contains a lot of bullshit.
> 
> ...


You misunderstand. I'm saying most people who claim to be christians aren't as christian as they claim to be.

A true christian will take the bible word for word.


----------



## SpeedStick (Feb 11, 2010)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*






Guy gets cut off air for saying there was someone holding the door at Pulse to keep them..


----------



## Not Lying (Sep 9, 2013)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

I think the new law for every fucking Muslim to visit a civilized country is to piss on the fucking Quran , if they don't piss on it then they are fucking extremist that deserve to fuck off and stay in their barbaric lands.


----------



## rdw9876 (Jun 13, 2016)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



sesshomaru said:


> The terrorist was born in the US. I doubt that his parents fed him anti Western rhetoric his entire life.
> 
> He was probably mentally ill, and wanted to watch the world burn.


I definitely agree that was probably mentally ill...as I believe anyone capable of the mass murder of innocent people is mentally ill in a clinical sense. You can't deny the fact that he called 911 to pledge allegiance to ISIS as he was committing this act though. At the end of the day, it's a tragic event that I hope doesn't occur again.


----------



## Slickback (Jun 17, 2015)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



Saffiemack said:


> I don't dispute that point. I simply believe that they don't do these things out of faith, they do it because they are animals. No human being can murder innocent people and feel in any way noble in doing so. It is unnatural, and whether they have been made that way by their religion or not, they are deranged.


Problem with your thinknig is that religion is NEVER the culprit then/

Any random act of terror is just due to them being insane


----------



## KO Bossy (Oct 23, 2011)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



Gandhi said:


> You misunderstand. I'm saying most people who claim to be christians aren't as christian as they claim to be.
> 
> A true christian will take the bible word for word.


Well...good. I'm glad most people aren't true Christians, if that's the case. You seem to have some knowledge of the Bible. Beyond the hate speech, all the ridiculous shit about burning bushes that talk, people being magically brought back to life, etc. I get it. Back in the day when the Bible was compiled, this kind of thing worked because people were easy to fool. We now live in an age where that just doesn't fly anymore. The Bible needs a serious update for modern times.

And if you're actually living your life, trying to follow a nearly 2000 year old text (in parts, over 2000 years old) and using that to govern your life in 2016...that's just sad.


----------



## Gandhi (Sep 15, 2012)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

Let the conspiracies commence...


----------



## Arya Dark (Sep 8, 2006)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

*For people to underplay the role of religion in these types of attacks is pretty atrocious and boggles my mind. 

*


----------



## stevefox1200 (Jul 7, 2009)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

This is coming down to means vs motive

Was this a violent man with a gun who just happened to be Muslim or violent Muslim who just happened to have a gun? 

http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/12/opinions/orlando-shooting-moghul/index.html

A cnn opinion piece by a Muslim brought up an interesting point that outside of religion Muslims don't really have much cultural growth. The only types of Muslims he sees are hardcore orthodox and moderates who only care around the holidays and the first group is the one that is pushing hard to expand and pumping tons of money to do so. There is no alternative for "real" Muslims other than extremism or to be a wishy washy "fake" Muslim who they view as traitors. There is no legitimate organized middle like there is for the extremists


----------



## Gandhi (Sep 15, 2012)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



etrbaby said:


> I think the new law for every fucking Muslim to visit a civilized country is to piss on the fucking Quran , if they don't piss on it then they are fucking extremist that deserve to fuck off and stay in their barbaric lands.












Habibi el Lebnani


----------



## Saffiemack (Jun 11, 2016)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



Timeless said:


> Problem with your thinknig is that religion is NEVER the culprit then/
> 
> Any random act of terror is just due to them being insane


Any person who commits such an act IS insane and/or evil. People are responsible for their own actions. 

That said, I actually agree that Islamic teaching is often a factor in making people insane.


----------



## Gandhi (Sep 15, 2012)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



Saffiemack said:


> Any person who commits such an act IS insane and/or evil. People are responsible for their own actions.
> 
> That said, I actually agree that Islamic teaching is often a factor in making people insane.


I wouldn't say they're evil, just heavily ignorant or heavily mentally ill.

Also I'm quite pleased with your final sentence in your post, very good point.


----------



## stevefox1200 (Jul 7, 2009)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

Think that religion can give a nut the will to do these things

If a guy hated blonds (for example) but was the only who expressed these views he may calm down just so he can live in society

If he found a group of people who hates blond he will fell that it is not "just him" and this hate is "legit" and when the group believes that if you die killing blonds you get a reward in the afterlife problems start


----------



## FITZ (May 8, 2007)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



sesshomaru said:


> The terrorist was born in the US. I doubt that his parents fed him anti Western rhetoric his entire life.
> 
> He was probably mentally ill, and wanted to watch the world burn.


Well he passed all the backgrounds he needed to get a gun license and work as a security officer. If he had a mental illness nobody found out about it. His ex-wife is saying he was bi-polar and that he beat her. But he sounds like the typical ISIS recruit. 

He was a fucking loser that got recruited because he was a loser and ISIS let him in. USA Today is reporting that he was bullied in school and nobody liked him. He was a fucking loser and that's the kind of people that ISIS get that live in West. 





Gandhi said:


> You misunderstand. I'm saying most people who claim to be christians aren't as christian as they claim to be.
> 
> A true christian will take the bible word for word.


If Jesus actually wrote the bible then a true Christian would follow the bible word for word. However, he did not write it so saying a true Christian would follow the words that some people wrote long after Jesus died does not seem like an accurate statement.


----------



## Gandhi (Sep 15, 2012)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



FITZ said:


> If Jesus actually wrote the bible then a true Christian would follow the bible word for word. However, he did not write it so saying a true Christian would follow the words that some people wrote long after Jesus died does not seem like an accurate statement.


Those people wrote the first and only documents claiming orders from Jesus though.


----------



## Not Lying (Sep 9, 2013)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



Gandhi said:


> Those people wrote the first and only documents claiming orders from Jesus though.


Christians are not stupid enough to believe them and follow word for word. At least in this day and age.


----------



## nucklehead88 (Dec 17, 2012)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



FITZ said:


> If Jesus actually wrote the bible then a true Christian would follow the bible word for word. However, he did not write it so saying a true Christian would follow the words that some people wrote long after Jesus died does not seem like an accurate statement.


No then they only follow the passages that support their views of the world. Lots of Christians hate gays. They petition to make gay marriage illegal because it's a sin...but in the same damn book...a page later it says that it's also a sin to trim your beard and it says that adultery is a sin. You don't see anyone petitioning to outlaw that.


----------



## Saffiemack (Jun 11, 2016)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



FITZ said:


> If Jesus actually wrote the bible then a true Christian would follow the bible word for word. However, he did not write it so saying a true Christian would follow the words that some people wrote long after Jesus died does not seem like an accurate statement.


If that means that the words of the Bible don't actually have the authority of Christ, then what's the point of following it at all? If it's all 'Here's what some random guys who lived years later thought about Jesus', then it's all just heresay, and I could write that myself. I'm pretty sure Jesus would have liked Pistachios. I mean, why not?


----------



## stevefox1200 (Jul 7, 2009)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



nucklehead88 said:


> No then they only follow the passages that support their views of the world. Lots of Christians hate gays. They petition to make gay marriage illegal because it's a sin...but in the same damn book...a page later it says that it's also a sin to trim your beard and it says that adultery is a sin. You don't see anyone petitioning to outlaw that.


Adultery was against the law and most parts of the world till like the last 40 years


----------



## SpeedStick (Feb 11, 2010)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/742073832891113473


Liberal Female Comedian says All Serial Killers are White


----------



## Gandhi (Sep 15, 2012)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



etrbaby said:


> Christians are not stupid enough to believe them and follow word for word. At least in this day and age.


Not an alarming number of christians anyway, most christians are as christian as Hitler was jewish.

The majority of christians used to be as bad as muslims, maybe worse, but years of extreme mockery from society and extreme wars against the religion has turned the christian into a strange creature that believes a death cult from the desert is some hippie club. Islam deserves the same treatment, it'd genuinely save lives.


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## PraXitude (Feb 27, 2014)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

Holy shit! Not only was this Muslim terrorist a member or supporter of ISIS (aka JV team), a wife beater, and a registered Democrat, but also this:

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-...-which-tranports-illegal-immigrants-deep-insi

The Feds knew about this prick since 2013.

Donald Trump just won the election tonight.


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## Gandhi (Sep 15, 2012)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



SpeedStick said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/742073832891113473
> 
> 
> Liberal Female Comedian says All Serial Killers are White


*5 NOTORIOUS EGYPTIAN SERIAL KILLERS* (Link here)


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## nucklehead88 (Dec 17, 2012)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



stevefox1200 said:


> Adultery was against the law and most parts of the world till like the last 40 years


Does that make it ok?


----------



## manstis1804 (Jan 31, 2010)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

The guy was an angry, disturbed person. ISIS allegiance was an excuse, he found a reservoir in which to pour his hate.

If he was unable to purchase such a gun, he'd have to do it through illegal means, thus at least giving us the _chance_ to catch him buying it. It's not going to solve the entire problem but to just do nothing is ridiculous. Universal background checks, assault weapons ban, no more gun show loophole, create a government agency or allocate resources to the ATF, FBI, or CIA to sniff out online/darkweb/black market/etc. arms dealers and shut 'em down. "Good-guys" who want to buy an AR-15 can fuck off, buy a handgun or a hunting rifle and have a ball.


----------



## nucklehead88 (Dec 17, 2012)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



SpeedStick said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/742073832891113473
> 
> 
> Liberal Female Comedian says All Serial Killers are White


Yea thats a stupid tweet. As a liberal myself, it's statements like that, that make people look stupid. Richard Ramirez says hello.


----------



## stevefox1200 (Jul 7, 2009)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



nucklehead88 said:


> Does that make it ok?


No

I am just saying that for a while it was law to be a "good christian"


----------



## nucklehead88 (Dec 17, 2012)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



stevefox1200 said:


> No
> 
> I am just saying that for a while it was law to be a "good christian"


Well times have changed. And people tend to forget the whole "separation of church and state" thing.


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## markoutsmarkout (Dec 30, 2014)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



manstis1804 said:


> The guy was an angry, disturbed person. ISIS allegiance was an excuse, he found a reservoir in which to pour his hate.
> 
> If he was unable to purchase such a gun, he'd have to do it through illegal means, thus at least giving us the _chance_ to catch him buying it. It's not going to solve the entire problem but to just do nothing is ridiculous. Universal background checks, assault weapons ban, no more gun show loophole, create a government agency or allocate resources to the ATF, FBI, or CIA to sniff out online/darkweb/black market/etc. arms dealers and shut 'em down. "Good-guys" who want to buy an AR-15 can fuck off, buy a handgun or a hunting rifle and have a ball.


We have background checks. This wasn't an assault rifle, as far as I know. Gun show loophole is a myth of an issue.

This Muslim shooter would have passed Australia's background checks, and Australia is always the "shining star" of gun control.

Oh, and AR-15's are the same as semiautomatic "hunting" rifles.


----------



## deepelemblues (Sep 26, 2011)

*re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



Gandhi said:


> Christians who don't kill gay people are hypocrites.
> 
> Though there have been cases with christians killing gay people in history, not too far away even.


I do believe that on this particular issue it is better to be a hypocrite than a murderer.


----------



## stevefox1200 (Jul 7, 2009)

*Re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

An AR-15 shoots 5.56 (basically a rifle sized .22) or lighter

A "hunting rifle" tends to fire 308 or higher (a FAR more dangerous and powerful round designed to be a one shot kill)

These "Assault" weapons are not "so much more dangerous" than the wooden griped rifles that people are OK with 

Many of the scary black "assault" weapons that people want banned are less dangerous than a basic rifle designed in the late 1800s


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## manstis1804 (Jan 31, 2010)

*Re: Florida Gay Bar shot up*



markoutsmarkout said:


> We have background checks. This wasn't an assault rifle, as far as I know. Gun show loophole is a myth of an issue.
> 
> This Muslim shooter would have passed Australia's background checks, and Australia is always the "shining star" of gun control.
> 
> Oh, and AR-15's are the same as semiautomatic "hunting" rifles.


How is the gun show thing a myth? That's how you get buy the background check, besides just buying a gun from someone. Background checks are only done through those "in the business" of selling guns.

If Australia wouldn't have caught him, whatever. If the gun wasn't legal, he wouldn't have been able to buy the gun he did.

My mistake on the gun classification. Ban semi-automatic or automatic weapons with large magazines.

Make it harder on people to access things, and increase the effort to catch people doing it illegally. To just throw our hands up and say "criminals will always win!" is completely stupid.


----------



## DesolationRow (Oct 11, 2009)

*Re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



stevefox1200 said:


> To all the dumbfucks who don't know
> 
> An AR-15 shoots 5.56 (basically a rifle sized .22) or lighter
> 
> ...


Accurate.

The "assault weapons" issue has been politicized beyond belief. Well, beyond belief were this not the world we know.


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## FITZ (May 8, 2007)

*Re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

I don't understand, why don't we just ban murder so nobody kills anyone anymore?


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## Slickback (Jun 17, 2015)

*Re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

Sick of all these fucking people defending Islam and religions whenever something like this happens, especially when thy believe shit like they'll go to heaven and be awarded with 70 virgins if they bomb themselves. When you believe that shit your not afraid to kill people.

Child suicide bombers: “They told us the bombs would not kill us, only the Americans would die and you can come back to us”


----------



## SHIVV-EAUX-EMME-GEEE (Sep 12, 2013)

*Re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

I do want to express my condolences to the relatives of those wo were slaughtered. I do commend all those who donated blood.


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## AT&T Stadium (Aug 25, 2015)

*Re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

What a thread this is. Can't just have respect for people who died, gotta turn it into some social issue to spin your agenda or opinion (as if anybody gives a fuck about what you think). You people disgust me tbh. There's a time and thread for that debate and it's not this thread.


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## LaMelo (Jan 13, 2015)

*Re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

Prayers for the victims!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## yeahbaby! (Jan 27, 2014)

*Re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

RIP to the victims.

As to the why for the shooter, I'm sure it's more complex than being a fundamentalist muslim or just being born evil whatever that means. Some research into terrorist/mass shooter motives shows that it's more about gaining notoriety than anything else, and based on this and other factors I feel like more research into the psychology of these people who perpetrate these awful crimes is needed. This is not to defend the person, it's to understand the mindset so we can take measures to stop others following in their footsteps.

Simply attributing this stuff to a political side or the tool they use or religion is too simple, it narrows the scope and haults the conversation, because it's not as if you can banish the Islamic belief, you just can't. You also can't ban all muslims from your country. 

Also, I certainly don't put any stock in ISIS claiming responsibility for the attacks. I mean unless they uncover this guy was working with others in the organisation then why would you believe the lies they spin? Of course they want to be seen as associated with any anti-western attack, it's their MO.

I'm not even going to mention gun control because it's been done to death here and what's the fucking point, no one wants to budge. The only thing I think is important to mention is the potential effect of a heavy gun culture of which gun availability surely must contribute to. I don't think a correlation between a strong gun culture and a stronger likelihood of someone deciding to shoot up a club is a stretch.

Anyway, the only thing for sure is a bunch of wrestling fans sniping back and forth at each other ain't gonna do shit.


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## birthday_massacre (Jan 30, 2013)

*Re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



markoutsmarkout said:


> We have background checks. This wasn't an assault rifle, as far as I know. Gun show loophole is a myth of an issue.
> 
> This Muslim shooter would have passed Australia's background checks, and Australia is always the "shining star" of gun control.
> 
> Oh, and AR-15's are the same as semiautomatic "hunting" rifles.


He was on the terroriost watch list and they still gave him a gun in the US. If the US is giving people who are on the terrorist watch list, then that needs to be fixed.

You really think people on the terrorist watch list should be able to get guns because of the 2nd amendment.


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## nwoblack/white (Apr 14, 2006)

*Re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

It continues to amaze me just how oblivious and or hypocritical the left really has become.
On one hand its ok to say guns must go because of shootings by psychopaths. Never mind the gun owners who commit violent crimes with fire arms is very low. Punish the lot because of the few.
On the other hand they welcome Islamic refugees who WILL in fact contain people who are terrorists and Islamic extremists. In this case though its alright to look past the "few bad " people and welcome the lot of them.
Can liberals seriously not see the hypocrisy in there own beliefs?


----------



## KC Armstrong (Jun 19, 2013)

*Re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



> Holy shit! Not only was this Muslim terrorist a member or supporter of ISIS (aka JV team), a wife beater, and a registered Democrat, but also this:
> 
> http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-...-which-tranports-illegal-immigrants-deep-insi
> 
> The Feds knew about this prick since 2013.



Well, we have seen that before, haven't we? 



> A whistleblower from the Department of Homeland Security has come forward to reveal that an investigation he was conducting on a fundamentalist Islamic group could have "put the red light" on the San Bernardino terrorists, potentially preventing their deadly attack, but it was abruptly shut down. *The reason: fears that it involved "profiling" of Muslims*.
> 
> Former DHS employee Philip Haney told Fox News Channel's Megyn Kelly Thursday that intelligence work he was a part of in 2012 would have "put the red light" on radicalized Muslim extremists Syed Farook and Tashfeen Malik. Working as an agent with U.S. Customs and Border Protection’s National Targeting Center, Haney was investigating a Sunni Islamic group, Tablighi Jamaat, which has been linked to attempted terror attacks and was part of a larger umbrella fundamentalist movement called the Deobandi movement.


-


----------



## NapperX (Jan 2, 2014)

*Re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

What a psychotic moron. No one deserves punishment nor death based on their gender, sexuality. What is also concerning is the reports that the FBI investigated him, he called the cops right before he was going to shoot. How do these type of people fall through the damn cracks? most of these deranged killers are known to the police, government. You can arrest someone for not paying taxes easily, but allow psychos to fall through cracks when they promote terror and purchase guns?. We can talk about amendments all we want, corrupt arms dealers, stricter gun laws, but look at the bigger issues, the delusional and psychotic behaviour of mass/serial killers who are terrorists. Let's put aside religion for a second and focus on the innocent lives of these victims and how to prevent such crimes because it keeps getting worse and worse year after year. Sitting back and custom labelling won't solve the issue.


----------



## birthday_massacre (Jan 30, 2013)

*Re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



nWoblack/white said:


> It continues to amaze me just how oblivious and or hypocritical the left really has become.
> On one hand its ok to say guns must go because of shootings by psychopaths. Never mind the gun owners who commit violent crimes with fire arms is very low. Punish the lot because of the few.
> On the other hand they welcome Islamic refugees who WILL in fact contain people who are terrorists and Islamic extremists. In this case though its alright to look past the "few bad " people and welcome the lot of them.
> Can liberals seriously not see the hypocrisy in there own beliefs?


I said this before and I will say it again. 90% of terrorist attacks against the US are from NON MUSLIMS, which means less than 10% of terrorist attacks are from Muslims. So should be ban all the other groups too that commit more terrorist acts against the US?













I love how all the pro gun and anti Muslim people in this thread totally ignored this point.

Jewish extremes commit MORE terrorist acts on the US than Muslims so should all Jews be banned from the US like people want Muslims?

I dont see how the left is being a hypocrite here, they would only be a hypocrite if they wanted to ban other groups but not muslim groups. The right are the ones who are hypocrites because they pick and choose who should be banned. You never hear the right say oh ban all jews from entering the US because they commit more terrorist acts than Muslims.

NO the right just says muslims should be banned

Comparing guns to Muslims is comparing apples to oranges. You need to compare Muslims with every other extreme religion or extremist group.


----------



## KC Armstrong (Jun 19, 2013)

*Re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



> Jewish extremes commit MORE terrorist acts on the US than Muslims so should all Jews be banned from the US like people want Muslims?



Just out of curiosity, can you tell me the last time Jewish extremists committed a Paris/Brussels/San Bernardino/Orlando style atrocity in the US or Europe?


----------



## Mifune Jackson (Feb 22, 2013)

*Re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

Freedom of religion and the right to bear arms are both in our constitution. 

None of this is enforceable. Get used to Muslims and get used to guns.


----------



## gamegenie (Aug 14, 2011)

*Re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



KO Bossy said:


> Well...good. I'm glad most people aren't true Christians, if that's the case. You seem to have some knowledge of the Bible. Beyond the hate speech, all the ridiculous shit about burning bushes that talk, people being magically brought back to life, etc. I get it. Back in the day when the Bible was compiled, this kind of thing worked because people were easy to fool. We now live in an age where that just doesn't fly anymore. The Bible needs a serious update for modern times.
> 
> And *if you're actually living your life, trying to follow a nearly 2000 year old text (in parts, over 2000 years old) and using that to govern your life in 2016...that's just sad.*


what a ridiculous thing to say.

The 10 commandments can and still should be followed today.


----------



## Chris JeriG.O.A.T (Jun 17, 2014)

*Re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



etrbaby said:


> I think the new law for every fucking Muslim to visit a civilized country is to piss on the fucking Quran , if they don't piss on it then they are fucking extremist that deserve to fuck off and stay in their barbaric lands.


Wouldn't work. Taqiyyah allows a Muslim to deny their faith and commit blasphemous and sinful acts in order to avoid persecution for being a Muslim. Many jihadists drink and go to whorehouses in order to throw off potentially surveilling law enforcement.


----------



## Reotor (Jan 8, 2016)

*Re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



Chris JeriG.O.A.T said:


> Wouldn't work. Taqiyyah allows a Muslim to deny their faith and commit blasphemous and sinful acts in order to avoid persecution for being a Muslim. Many jihadists drink and go to whorehouses in order to throw off potentially surveilling law enforcement.


Good point, those people have no problem blowing up mosques, you think they will have trouble pissing on a book?



birthday_massacre said:


> I love how all the pro gun and anti Muslim people in this thread totally ignored this point.
> 
> Jewish extremes commit MORE terrorist acts on the US than Muslims so should all Jews be banned from the US like people want Muslims?


I'm really curious about this pie chart, whats is the source?
From what year is it and what exactly constitute an "attack"?


----------



## 3ku1 (May 23, 2015)

*Re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



gamegenie said:


> what a ridiculous thing to say.
> 
> The 10 commandments can and still should be followed today.


IF anything it is pretty sad if you don't use 10 commandments to govern your life in 2016. They are applicable now more then ever.


----------



## BruiserKC (Mar 14, 2010)

*Re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

What a horrible tragedy, thank God the scumbag who did it got justice and that law enforcement got him. Although, it was too little too late as the FBI had questioned him twice but did nothing further before this. 

Meanwhile, while Obama did go further in his speeches then he has before and he actually called it an act of terror, he didn't go far enough in criticizing it as an act of radical Islamic terrorism. Omar Mateen, regardless of if he actually had any contact with ISIS, said he dedicated this dastardly deed in the name of the Islamic State. It's time that we put an end to the threat of radical Islamism and to take ISIS out. Drones alone will not do this, we need to make a serious effort to wipe ISIS off the face of the earth. 

Then, Obama decided once again to blame guns and stereotype all gun owners as evil and that we need to put a clamp on them. Mateen picked that location partially for his hatred of homosexuality, but also for the fact it was a soft target where firearms were banned. Could things have been different if someone had been armed?


----------



## yeahbaby! (Jan 27, 2014)

*Re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



nWoblack/white said:


> It continues to amaze me just how oblivious and or hypocritical the left really has become.
> On one hand its ok to say guns must go because of shootings by psychopaths. Never mind the gun owners who commit violent crimes with fire arms is very low. Punish the lot because of the few.
> On the other hand they welcome Islamic refugees who WILL in fact contain people who are terrorists and Islamic extremists. In this case though its alright to look past the "few bad " people and welcome the lot of them.
> Can liberals seriously not see the hypocrisy in there own beliefs?


Well there's plenty of people already in your and my town who WILL, for example, beat the shit out of their wives and kids, sometimes beat their wives to death, which is a huge problem in my country. So what do we do to greater society? Kick everyone out who resembles that of past perpetrators? Serious question.


----------



## Gandhi (Sep 15, 2012)

*Re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



gamegenie said:


> what a ridiculous thing to say.
> 
> The 10 commandments can and still should be followed today.







10 commandments LOL


----------



## Reaper (Sep 4, 2013)

*Re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



THE SHIV said:


> I do want to express my condolences to the relatives of those wo were slaughtered. I do commend all those who donated blood.


There were so many people where I went that eventually they had to start turning people away and asked them to come back later. 

I'm going back today or tomorrow. I'm O- and I didn't get a chance to donate because there were so many people there and that kinda sucks since I'm a universal donor.

This isn't to discourage people from donating btw ... However, where I'm from we used to have way more blood drives than you guys do in America so we had an unwritten understanding that the O's especially O-'s should get priority. If there are too many randoms showing up to donate blood then blood banks can get overstocked with blood types they don't need and not get the types they do need. At least where I went, that was the case. That said, just the sheer volume that was donated probably too care of that anyways. But it's something to consider for future blood drives.



BruiserKC said:


> What a horrible tragedy, thank God the scumbag who did it got justice and that law enforcement got him. Although, it was too little too late as the FBI had questioned him twice but did nothing further before this.
> 
> Meanwhile, while Obama did go further in his speeches then he has before and he actually called it an act of terror, he didn't go far enough in criticizing it as an act of radical Islamic terrorism. Omar Mateen, regardless of if he actually had any contact with ISIS, said he dedicated this dastardly deed in the name of the Islamic State. It's time that we put an end to the threat of radical Islamism and to take ISIS out. Drones alone will not do this, we need to make a serious effort to wipe ISIS off the face of the earth.
> 
> Then, Obama decided once again to blame guns and stereotype all gun owners as evil and that we need to put a clamp on them. Mateen picked that location partially for his hatred of homosexuality, but also for the fact it was a soft target where firearms were banned. Could things have been different if someone had been armed?


Agreed on all counts. Enough is enough of this garbage. I don't give a fuck anymore if a few "innocent" cucks get tossed away to prisons or kicked out of the fucking country if they're already on the watchdog lists. Get them the fuck out of this country. 

The thing that pisses me off the most about this situation is that this kid was born and raised in New York which is essentially the beacon of liberal tolarism and meanwhile Muslims will claim that they love the gays ... they really, really, really fucking don't. This is a religiously motivated hate crime and the idiot liberals are now excusing it as a simple hate crime. No you fucks, Muslims are raised to hate gays and that's what makes it a religiously motivated hate crime. 

Even the so called liberals and moderates really do fucking hate the gays. It's extremely common in their culture and now a lot of them are lying about it too. I'd say 99.99% of all Muslims I've ever talked to really fucking hate gays and it's a huge problem in their community. It was only a matter of time before one of them did something like this because almost all them harbor these thoughts and fantasize about killing gays and infidels. Luckily most of them are too cowardly to act on this, but the ones that are not do enough damage on their behalf. I can say with absolute surety and guarantee that this boy while being raised in liberal New York was fed the story of Lot as a child straight out of the Quran and took it to heart. In Muslim circles the story of Lot is far more anti-gay than the bible version btw. 

I'm so fucking tired of defending this Muslim community in America (specifically the immigrant muslim community)... Maybe I'm just mad right now and saying more than I normally would on this subject but I'm fucking tired of trying to be reasonable in an unreasonable world. The majority of immigrant Muslims that come to America do not assimilate .. they do not teach their kids western values but they go out of their way to put them in religious schools and incubate them from the very culture they came to to get away from their own shitholes. It's retarded and it's incredibly unfair to the western cultures they immigrate to. Fuck them. Seriously.


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## Chris JeriG.O.A.T (Jun 17, 2014)

*Re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



Reaper said:


> There were so many people where I went that eventually they had to start turning people away and asked them to come back later.
> 
> I'm going back today or tomorrow. I'm O- and I didn't get a chance to donate because there were so many people there and that kinda sucks since I'm a universal donor.
> 
> ...


I went to college in the Muslim capital of America Dearborn Michigan, as a result I've had a lot of Muslim friends and associates over the years and I've not experienced that to be the case. Their community is far less insular than other immigrant communities and is becoming homogenized. Most of the ones I've known have been non-observant in one or more facets and I've known openly gay Muslims. 

Maybe my experiences have been unique or maybe the community is unique but it saddens me to see so much anti-Islamic sentiment since I've known so many good Muslims.


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## Miss Sally (Jul 14, 2014)

*Re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



Reaper said:


> There were so many people where I went that eventually they had to start turning people away and asked them to come back later.
> 
> I'm going back today or tomorrow. I'm O- and I didn't get a chance to donate because there were so many people there and that kinda sucks since I'm a universal donor.
> 
> ...


I try to be objective but this infuriates me on so many levels. This fundamentalist Islam running amok with CAIR constantly saying none of this has to do with Religion while they donate money to terrorist groups is just so laughable. We have the celebs who instead of focusing on the tragedy use this as a platform to attack Trump and push whatever agenda they want while trying to take the high road. It's sickening.

I've seen several silly comments in this thread, first of all someone mentioned this had nothing to do with gays and more to do with an attack on America. So a man who gets upset at two men kissing, is a devout Muslim, did his killing in the name of ISIS and chose a gay bar is just a random target? Unlikely.

Another was someone who compared him to a trump supporter with a confederate flag, considering the fact this man was a democrat, had witnesses say he had no problems with blacks makes him seem far from a trump supporter or someone who values the confederate flag. This comment had to be one of the dumbest I've seen on this forum.

The biggest issue with people who don't assimilate doesn't come from the parents, though they're a huge part of it. It comes from the fact their children are stuck between worlds belonging to neither. There is a reason why many hispanic children get involved with gangs and La Raza etc because they don't feel American so they overcompensate by going balls out trying to "find their roots", instead all they end up finding is nothing or some form of radical bullshit fed to them by fanatics either Religious or Racial, then told it's okay by leftists who never really accept them. So now you have these confused people full of hate, confusion and identity issues. Their parents cannot help them because they've not assimilated, their American friends don't relate to them, their "kin" push them in a fanatical direction and hardcore lefty college students/professors/media enable them. 

I wonder how crazy the biased media would be going if the shooter was white, christian, male, a wanna be cop and a woman beater? Would Obama say if he had a gay son he would look like one of the victims? Would hilary be babbling about how racist males are dangerous with guns? Would all the hilary shilling celebs be calling this man a trump supporter? It's San Bern all over again with the media spinning it's wheels unsure what to do as pandering leftists fence sit.


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## Reaper (Sep 4, 2013)

*Re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



Chris JeriG.O.A.T said:


> Maybe my experiences have been unique or maybe the community is unique but it saddens me to see so much anti-Islamic sentiment since I've known so many good Muslims.


Like I said, I'm probably mad and therefore being like this. However, don't discount everything I said because I'm an ex-Muslim apostate so I'm closer to muslims in the sense that I was a part of their inner circle - where the truth is spoken and comes out more often than it does when they're around their white/non-white/non-muslim/christian friends. They're not really tolerant .. They're able to feign tolerance for their own social acceptability. In their own circles, they revert more often than not. 

Yes, a lot of them are non-observant and there are more non-observing muslims everywhere than it's assumed. But the thing is that as long as they're muslim they're open to being indoctrinated or getting worse at a later stage in life. I have so many examples of that within my own group of college friends that it makes me sad. The girls that I used to party with are now wearing hijabs and niqabs and posting verses and hadith all day. The boys I used to hang out with and party are now fathers sending their kids to sunday schools. 

College/university going Muslims are different .. but at some point their childhood indoctrination starts kicking in again when they have to settle down, find mates and raise good little muslim children of their own.


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## yeahbaby! (Jan 27, 2014)

*Re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

^ Reaper It's one thing hating gay people if that is in fact true of the moderate muslim majority, but completely another to go out and shoot up a gay bar. You can't just throw them all in the same category like that.


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## Reaper (Sep 4, 2013)

*Re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



yeahbaby! said:


> ^ Reaper It's one thing hating gay people if that is in fact true of the moderate muslim majority, but completely another to go out and shoot up a gay bar. You can't just throw them all in the same category like that.


Where did I do that? All I said was that a lot of them _fantasize _about doing this meanwhile all it takes is 1 of them to do the damage. 

The Westboro claim that this man was a warrior of god applies to a lot of people. Most of them are just not going to openly admit it. 

I grew up around Muslims (mostly liberal and moderate Muslims). I know how much they hate gays. The majority of them do. Some are just indifferent but even the indifferent ones vehemntly believe that homosexuality is a sin and that homosexuals are going to hell and subscribe to all the anti-gay propaganda regarding the STD's. 

Just because the majority don't act out violently doesn't mean that gay hating isn't a problem in their community as a whole and that they're not indoctrinated from birth to do it. 

Usually I don't quote the Quran, but the Story of Lot (unlike the verses about killing infidels) is more widely circulated amongst Muslim families including the liberal and moderate ones therefore more Muslims end up hating gays than muslims that hate infidels. Please read the story of the destruction of Sodom as told by the Quran. This isn't some fringe story that gets left out in the liberal and moderate households. It's openly told as a justification for homophobia in every Muslim household. Every single muslim child grows up hearing this story. And I can say that with an absolute certainty.



Miss Sally said:


> I try to be objective but this infuriates me on so many levels. This fundamentalist Islam running amok with CAIR constantly saying none of this has to do with Religion while they donate money to terrorist groups is just so laughable. We have the celebs who instead of focusing on the tragedy use this as a platform to attack Trump and push whatever agenda they want while trying to take the high road. It's sickening.


These people are anti-gay as well. Right now they're scrambling for being tolerated themselves. Maybe I won't say all muslims hate gays, but the vast majority of them do and the ones that don't actually hate them are indifferent to them outwardly, but inside are either sad that they're sinners and going to hell, or actively wishing hell upon them. I have very little positive things to say when it comes to Islam and homophobia because it really is a huge problem that they haven't addressed yet and have no intentions of doing any time soon. 

I agree with what you said about these kids looking for some sort of belonging. But that blame still does like to the parents that create an atmosphere of "you're different" right from the start. Whether they do it to preserve their culture, or to separate them from being assimilated by western culture is really not important because this idea of being different starts at the home. The reason why far-eastern asian cultures have assimilated into the west more easily is because they don't have archaic barriers like abrahimic religions holding them back. They're secular/atheist/agnostic people in a secular/atheist/agnostic culture. The clash isn't that great - so they can focus on allowing their kids to have a western lifestyle without actually thinking about it. 

Whereas you've got muslim kids in immigrant families that still cling to their old values and the kids are raised to believe that they are different and that difference then puts them into a life-long culture shock that they they shouldn't experience at all. My kids are going to be raised like white kids ... and if I find them over-identifying with a particular culture, it would become my responsibility to at least have a discussion with them to stop doing that. That said, they're at an advantage compared to other immigrant children as my wife's a white american and we're both atheist, but it's also because we're both very much about western culture and ideas and I'm fully integrated already.


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## Vic Capri (Jun 7, 2006)

*Re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*










#OrlandoStrong #GayLivesMatter

- Vic


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## Solf (Aug 24, 2014)

*Re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

"Europe is unsafe"

Ah, americans...


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## Stinger Fan (Jun 21, 2006)

*Re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



birthday_massacre said:


> The bible tells Christians to hate gays.


Incorrect. The *old testament* does, which is not something Christians are supposed to believe in or take as seriously. Christians are followers of Jesus Christ and his new teachings . Ultimately, there's no point in trying to discuss things like this because quite frankly, neither side will back down. Christianity is unfortunately misunderstood and so many people are taught the wrong thing that it has led to hate(on both sides) when it wasn't meant to.


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## deanambroselover (Mar 16, 2015)

*Re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

Obama should of banned guns along time ago. More and more people are gonna die cos America wont change their gun laws


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## Pronoss (Aug 20, 2014)

*Re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*










From my Cold dead hands


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## birthday_massacre (Jan 30, 2013)

*Re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



Stinger Fan said:


> Incorrect. The *old testament* does, which is not something Christians are supposed to believe in or take as seriously. Christians are followers of Jesus Christ and his new teachings . Ultimately, there's no point in trying to discuss things like this because quite frankly, neither side will back down. Christianity is unfortunately misunderstood and so many people are taught the wrong thing that it has led to hate(on both sides) when it wasn't meant to.


I always love the OH its the *old testament* which is not something Christians are supposed to believe in or take as seriously yet gays are always quoting the bible about that part about being gay is a sin. NOT TO MENTION the 10 commandment are in the *old testament* so are Christians not supposed to take those seriously or believe in either? 

Why do Christians follow the 10 commandments of the old testament is something they shouldn't be following? 

I love how Christians cherry pick things like this. Christianity is not misunderstood, Christians just dont like hearing the truth about their religion. Christianity is every bit as bad as Islam.

Leviticus tells Christians that gays should be put to death. And you can't throw that out if you are going to keep in the 10 commandments which we all is a huge thing in Christianity.


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## Miss Sally (Jul 14, 2014)

*Re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



birthday_massacre said:


> I always love the OH its the *old testament* which is not something Christians are supposed to believe in or take as seriously yet gays are always quoting the bible about that part about being gay is a sin. NOT TO MENTION the 10 commandment are in the *old testament* so are Christians not supposed to take those seriously or believe in either?
> 
> Why do Christians follow the 10 commandments of the old testament is something they shouldn't be following?
> 
> I love how Christians cherry pick things like this. Christianity is not misunderstood, Christians just dont like hearing the truth about their religion. Christianity is every bit as bad as Islam.


Compared to Islam, Christianity is HIV. Islam is more like terminal brain and butt cancer combined with super aids and typhoid.


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## FriedTofu (Sep 29, 2014)

*Re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



Reaper said:


> Where did I do that? All I said was that a lot of them _fantasize _about doing this meanwhile all it takes is 1 of them to do the damage.
> 
> The Westboro claim that this man was a warrior of god applies to a lot of people. Most of them are just not going to openly admit it.
> 
> ...


I don't think it is only Muslims or even Christians that are anti-gay. Up to maybe the past three decades or so, most societies shun openly gay people, and many still do, even though they don't advocate violence towards them like the religious fanatics. I feel that it is partly due to the belief that the most important duty is to produce a heir to the family. And the belief that gays are detrimental to that. Much like how sons are preferred to daughters in many cultures because of the belief that males will carry the family name into the next generation.


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## Reaper (Sep 4, 2013)

*Re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



FriedTofu said:


> I don't think it is only Muslims or even Christians that are anti-gay. Up to maybe the past three decades or so, most societies shun openly gay people, and many still do, even though they don't advocate violence towards them like the religious fanatics. I feel that it is partly due to the belief that the most important duty is to produce a heir to the family. And the belief that gays are detrimental to that. Much like how sons are preferred to daughters in many cultures because of the belief that males will carry the family name into the next generation.


I didn't even say that _only _muslims or _only _religious people are homophobic. All I said was that Muslims are raised to be homophobic - even the liberal and moderate ones. Also, logically looking at it the fact that non-muslims and non-christians can also be homophobic does not excuse the fact that most muslims are homophobic. Yeah, sure majority of them aren't going to pick up a weapon and shoot a gay guy, but the vaaaast majority of them will either disown, hate or shun their son for telling them that he's gay. Just read the Quran version of Sodom please. I'm telling you with extreme confidence that all muslim children are exposed to this story and then the conversation leads to how it was because of homosexuality that they were destroyed. The same thing is also added to the Noah flood that one of the reasons for that flood was homosexuality. Muslims are still to this day raised with these stories and I'm not talking about conservative muslim households, I'm talking about liberal ones. They love to hide it now because obviously they want tolerance for themselves too, but do a blind test. Ask any Muslim you know about the story of Sodom and why they were destroyed and they'll talk about homosexuality. 

Muslims are still about 1000 years away from gay acceptance as a culture. It's taken Christians 2000 years to somewhat start accepting gays (and even the vast majority of them still reject and disown their gay sons). As a culture, religious people are and will always be more homophobic than non-religious people ... but Muslims are more homophobic than Christians and Jews. Muslim homophobia is a secret that's gotten covered up like a lot of other backward aspects of Muslim ideological sprectrum because the focus is on terror and terrorist attacks. The fact that the conversation has now finally shifted to another aspect of Islamic backwardness after this attack is actually a positive because maybe once and for all it might encourage muslims to examine their own homophobic ideas .. That said, I doubt that they will actually do that. 

Yes, I know there's this new very fringe, very minor movement in recent years of gay muslims etc, but they're such a small minority of the 1.7 billion that they truly represent the exception not the rule.


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## birthday_massacre (Jan 30, 2013)

*Re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



Reaper said:


> I didn't even say that _only _muslims or _only _religious people are homophobic. All I said was that Muslims are raised to be homophobic - even the liberal and moderate ones. Also, logically looking at it the fact that non-muslims and non-christians can also be homophobic does not excuse the fact that most muslims are homophobic. Yeah, sure majority of them aren't going to pick up a weapon and shoot a gay guy, but the vaaaast majority of them will either disown, hate or shun their son for telling them that he's gay. Muslims are still about 1000 years away from gay acceptance as a culture. It's taken Christians 2000 years to somewhat start accepting gays (and even the vast majority of them still reject their gay sons). As a culture, religious people are and will always be more homophobic than non-religious people ... but Muslims are more homophobic than Christians and Jews.
> 
> Yes, I know there's this new very fringe, very minor movement in recent years of gay muslims etc, but they're such a small minority of the 1.7 billion that they truly represent the exception not the rule.


Christians and Jews are raised to be homophobic too are they not?






Miss Sally said:


> Compared to Islam, Christianity is HIV. Islam is more like terminal brain and butt cancer combined with super aids and typhoid.


Both are just as bad, the US just makes a much bigger deal about Muslim extremist and doesn't care about Christian Extremist. 

All religions are evil they just teach intolerance and hate the opposite of what they are claim to do.


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## Reaper (Sep 4, 2013)

*Re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



birthday_massacre said:


> Christians and Jews are raised to be homophobic too are they not?


What's the point of bringing that up when I'm talking about Muslims being raised to be homophobic. Does me saying that christians are raised to be homophobic necessary? No. Because most people in the west know that. 

But most people in the west, especially liberals do not know that Muslims are more likely to be more homophobic than christians because the examination and challenging of their homophobia has never happened - which is why it is more important for us atheists to make sure that we're highlighting this fact. 

As a point of comparison you will find that statistically a larder percent of Muslims will turn out to be more homophobic than the percent of christians because their homophobia has never been questioned or addressed by anyone ever. They've got far more freedom to be homophobic than any other culture in the world and that's the problem I'm trying to highlight.

Pick a muslim friend. Start talking about homosexuality with him. Even a liberal one. Try to be skeptical and really push him. Be the provocateur. Rinse. Repeat. Trust me. You won't find a truly tolerant muslim when it comes to homosexuality. They don't exist. Except maybe the ones that are gay themselves and want to remain a part of the very religion that absolutely hates them. But they're a different group of nutjobs that I have another range of opinions about.


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## deepelemblues (Sep 26, 2011)

*Re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



birthday_massacre said:


> I always love the OH its the *old testament* which is not something Christians are supposed to believe in or take as seriously yet gays are always quoting the bible about that part about being gay is a sin. NOT TO MENTION the 10 commandment are in the *old testament* so are Christians not supposed to take those seriously or believe in either?
> 
> Why do Christians follow the 10 commandments of the old testament is something they shouldn't be following?
> 
> ...


Christians are supposed to use their free will and reason to analyze the Bible to seek the truth of God's word. In Christian theology both are gifts from God and there is no stricture from God that they are not supposed to be used. All this was hashed out by Christian philosophers 1000 years ago. The political structure of the Catholic Church opposed it which was why regular people not just priests reading the Bible was a big part of the Protestant Reformation.

There is no dictate in the vast majority of Christian theologies that every word of the Bible from beginning to end is supposed to be followed precisely. 

If you weren't an ignorant bigot you'd know that. 

I love how people who know absolutely nothing about Christian theology are suddenly experts in the field. I love how they are so arrogant that they think they know Christianity better than actual Christians, that they have discovered the correct way to be a member of a religion they hate. People like you talking about what Christians can and can't "throw out," that they are "cherry pickers," how they don't like hearing "the truth" about their religion. The fuck do you know? You hate Christianity. It's like a Nazi telling a Jew the correct way to be a Jew. Anyone who is not a bigot cannot seriously take the statement "Christianity is every bit as bad as Islam" as anything but the inane bigotry of an ignoramus. 

If Christianity were every bit as bad as Islam, there'd be no gay marriage in Christian-majority countries, homosexual acts would be illegal in the majority of Christian-majority countries the way it is in the majority of Muslim-majority countries, and it would be a capital offense in at least one Christian-majority country (it is not in any, it is a capital offense in ten Muslim-majority countries), and lethal violence against homosexuals by Christians would be a regular occurrence. It is not. It is a regular occurrence by Muslims though.



> Christians and Jews are raised to be homophobic too are they not?


If they were, bigot, there'd be Christians and Jews killing homosexuals all the time. They aren't. Muslims are raised to be homophobic, Muslims kill homosexuals all the time.



> Both are just as bad,


Says no one but bigots.



> the US just makes a much bigger deal about Muslim extremist and doesn't care about Christian Extremist.


That's why no one in America opposes the WBC right?

Oh wait they do? The WBC is a very unpopular bunch of people in America? In their own home state of Kansas, only 2% of respondents in a poll approved of the WBC?

http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/main/2013/02/kansas-miscellany.html



> -The Westboro Baptist Church is one of the most unpopular entities we've ever polled on. Only 2% of Kansans have a positive opinion of it to 85% with a negative one. There's no disparity across party lines on this one- 86% of Democrats, 85% of Republicans, and 84% of independents have an unfavorable opinion of it.


Well what the fuck? It's like bigot BM is a source of false information or something. 



> All religions are evil they just teach intolerance and hate the opposite of what they are claim to do.


Says the intolerant bigot who knows absolutely nothing about religion except that he is an expert about it because he can point out nonexistent contradictions implied by standards of piety 99% of Christians at least do not believe are valid and have not for generations.

Call the Pope and tell him to get the fuck out of the way, BM knows Christianity better than he does. The Archbishop of Canterbury too. Dissolve all the leadership councils of various Protestant denominations, tell all the leaders of the thousands of independent churches they need to step down, the true arbiter of Christianity has arrived even though he knows absolutely nothing about Christianity past what he read on some bigot atheist Facebook posts.


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## FriedTofu (Sep 29, 2014)

*Re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



Reaper said:


> I didn't even say that _only _muslims or _only _religious people are homophobic. All I said was that Muslims are raised to be homophobic - even the liberal and moderate ones. Also, logically looking at it the fact that non-muslims and non-christians can also be homophobic does not excuse the fact that most muslims are homophobic. Yeah, sure majority of them aren't going to pick up a weapon and shoot a gay guy, but the vaaaast majority of them will either disown, hate or shun their son for telling them that he's gay. Just read the Quran version of Sodom please. I'm telling you with extreme confidence that all muslim children are exposed to this story and then the conversation leads to how it was because of homosexuality that they were destroyed. The same thing is also added to the Noah flood that one of the reasons for that flood was homosexuality. Muslims are still to this day raised with these stories and I'm not talking about conservative muslim households, I'm talking about liberal ones. They love to hide it now because obviously they want tolerance for themselves too, but do a blind test. Ask any Muslim you know about the story of Sodom and why they were destroyed and they'll talk about homosexuality.
> 
> Muslims are still about 1000 years away from gay acceptance as a culture. It's taken Christians 2000 years to somewhat start accepting gays (and even the vast majority of them still reject and disown their gay sons). As a culture, religious people are and will always be more homophobic than non-religious people ... but Muslims are more homophobic than Christians and Jews. Muslim homophobia is a secret that's gotten covered up like a lot of other backward aspects of Muslim ideological sprectrum because the focus is on terror and terrorist attacks. The fact that the conversation has now finally shifted to another aspect of Islamic backwardness after this attack is actually a positive because maybe once and for all it might encourage muslims to examine their own homophobic ideas .. That said, I doubt that they will actually do that.
> 
> Yes, I know there's this new very fringe, very minor movement in recent years of gay muslims etc, but they're such a small minority of the 1.7 billion that they truly represent the exception not the rule.


Gay people in general are a small minority. I'm just saying the cause of anti-gay sentiments isn't just due to Islam but also geographic culture as well. I contrast your anecdotal example with my own. A group of friends of mine who are non-religious, are openly homophobic. We can be considered to be 'raised to be homophobic' too as gays are seen as 'wrong'. Does that make us instantly bad people? Or just reflective of the conservative nature of our culture?

Personally I am indifferent towards gays, but I join in the homophobic jokes as well. Just saying anti-gay feeling among the majority isn't only limited to religious people. Majority of society still see homosexuality as doing something wrong even though they don't go around killing gays.


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## Reaper (Sep 4, 2013)

*Re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



FriedTofu said:


> Gay people in general are a small minority. I'm just saying the cause of anti-gay sentiments isn't just due to Islam but also geographic culture as well. I contrast your anecdotal example with my own. A group of friends of mine who are non-religious, are openly homophobic. We can be considered to be 'raised to be homophobic' too as gays are seen as 'wrong'. Does that make us instantly bad people? Or just reflective of the conservative nature of our culture?
> 
> Personally I am indifferent towards gays, but I join in the homophobic jokes as well. Just saying anti-gay feeling among the majority isn't only limited to religious people. Majority of society still see homosexuality as doing something wrong even though they don't go around killing gays.


None of this negates that overall _more _muslims are more homophobic and even worse violently so compared to any other group. The non-religious group is statistically proven to be the most tolerant. And that is backed up by fact.

There is no such thing as a truly LGBT tolerant muslim. Even the most accepting of them will still think it's immoral to engage in homosexuality. 

And if actually challenged with doctrine and the Quran they have to _outright _ignore those verses. The story of Lot is not hadith, and has no historical context or limitation because it is far more precise and clear than even the bible when it comes to the admonishing of homosexuality.


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## birthday_massacre (Jan 30, 2013)

*Re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



Reaper said:


> What's the point of bringing that up when I'm talking about Muslims being raised to be homophobic. Does me saying that christians are raised to be homophobic necessary? No. Because most people in the west know that.
> 
> But most people in the west, especially liberals do not know that Muslims are more likely to be more homophobic than christians because the examination and challenging of their homophobia has never happened - which is why it is more important for us atheists to make sure that we're highlighting this fact.
> 
> ...


Because both groups are born to hate gay people but you are singling out Muslims. And sorry but its just not true that Muslims are more ikely to be more homophobic than christians especially if you live in the south in the US. It all depends what part of the country you live in. Its in the bible that gays should be killed. 



deepelemblues said:


> Christians are supposed to use their free will and reason to analyze the Bible to seek the truth of God's word. In Christian theology both are gifts from God and there is no stricture from God that they are not supposed to be used. All this was hashed out by Christian philosophers 1000 years ago. The political structure of the Catholic Church opposed it which was why regular people not just priests reading the Bible was a big part of the Protestant Reformation.
> 
> There is no dictate in the vast majority of Christian theologies that every word of the Bible from beginning to end is supposed to be followed precisely.
> 
> ...


No they are not since if you dont agree with the bible and its teaching you go to hell according to the bible. The bible does not want you using free will, it wants you to blindly follow its words.

I also love your projection calling me an ignorant bigot when I am the one against the killing of gays in the bible and pointing out the hypocrisy of saying well that part about killing gays is TOT isnt supposed to be taken serious anymore yet the 10 commandments are in there and Christians still follow that. But keep going with your projection. Its jus like when Christians claim they are being infringed upon because they are not allowed to discriminate against gays.

Gay marriages was banned in every nation until not too long ago, in even more recently in the US. Christians still want gay marriage rebanned in the US. Don't act like gay marriage was always allowed in those Christian nations. It wasnt until very recently they started to ignore it.

the fact is the bible says being gay is punishable by death, just because more and more people are seeing what BS religion is and are going away from ignorant things like being against gays just mean more and more people are moving away from religion and its teachings. So stop acting like gay marriage was not illegally for 2000 years before countries started unbanning gay marriage. 


Also I was a christian for 18 years went church every sunday, when to CCD and made my confirmation, read the bible and saw what BS it all was and became an atheist. I would say I am pretty well knowledge about christianity. 

You dont have to kill gays to be homophobic , just saying its a sin to be gay and telling them they are going to hell and sayign they shouldn't be able to get married is being bigoted. 

Its laughable you claim the only way to be bigoted against gays is to kill them all the time. 

That is like saying someone isnt racist unless they are killing blacks all the time.

I said they make a much bigger deal about Muslim extremist than Jewish extremist. 

You clearly dont know what the world bigot means. Its not bigoted to say all religions are bad. its bigoted to think all religions are bad but yours. 

Your projection in this thread totally makes my point and I thank you for that. 

I love how you use the appeal to authority fallacy with oh the pope. Religion is used to indoctrinate people, of course you are not going to listen to people that try to brainwash you into their religion.

You need to read the bible for yourself and then see if you want believe what it says and call bullshit.

I called bullshit along time ago. All you are to do is READ the bible and not jus cherry people the "good" parts and you can see what an evil book it is. You have to take the bible as a whole and most just pick out the pretty parts you like and ignore the hateful parts because if you want go that route you can do the same thing with Muslims and claim oh well those are not REAL MUSLIMS then follow the bad parts and nots were not meant to be taken literally, just like people do with the bible.

All religion is bad, the only difference is people like you ignore the bad parts in the bible and say well those are not supposed to be followed anymore then when it comes to Islam, you ignore all the "good" teachings and then focus on the extremist who follow the bad teachings.

But you did a great job with your post in proving my point , its too easy with you sometimes.







Reaper said:


> None of this negates that overall _more _muslims are more homophobic and even worse violently so compared to any other group. The non-religious group is statistically proven to be the most tolerant. And that is backed up by fact.
> 
> There is no such thing as a truly LGBT tolerant muslim. Even the most accepting of them will still think it's immoral to engage in homosexuality.
> 
> And if actually challenged with doctrine and the Quran they have to _outright _ignore those verses. The story of Lot is not hadith, and has no historical context or limitation because it is far more precise and clear than even the bible when it comes to the admonishing of homosexuality.


There're plenty of muslims they are not against gays. They even have groups formed for those people that are not anti gay in the Muslim community. What you are saying is simply just not true.


----------



## Reaper (Sep 4, 2013)

*Re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



birthday_massacre said:


> Because both groups are born to hate gay people but you are singling out Muslims. And sorry but its just not true that Muslims are more ikely to be more homophobic than christians especially if you live in the south in the US. It all depends what part of the country you live in. Its in the bible that gays should be killed.


Yes, thank you BM. Thank you for showing me the truth. Me, an ignorant ex-muslim who has lived in Malaysia, Dubai, Pakistan, Canada and now the American South the truth about how Muslims are not more homophobic than Christians. Thank you. They are absolutely equally homophobic as christians are. Yes Yes. Thank you for proving that to me. 

I'm glad we have liberals like you to put us ex-muslims who only lived amongst muslims in our place and telling us the truth because what we saw and heard and experienced with our own senses was just an elaborate fantasy we created fpalm


----------



## deepelemblues (Sep 26, 2011)

*Re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



Reaper said:


> Yes, thank you BM. Thank you for showing me the truth. Me, an ignorant ex-muslim who has lived in Malaysia, Dubai, Pakistan, Canada and now the American South the truth about how Muslims are not more homophobic than Christians. Thank you. They are absolutely equally homophobic as christians are. Yes Yes. Thank you for proving that to me.
> 
> I'm glad we have liberals like you to put us ex-muslims who only lived amongst muslims in our place and telling us the truth because what we saw and heard and experienced with our own senses was just an elaborate fantasy we created fpalm


Facebook, Reddit, Twitter, etc. told him they're equally as "bad," social media > the real world. Come on, everybody knows that.


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## Reaper (Sep 4, 2013)

*Re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



deepelemblues said:


> Facebook, Reddit, Twitter, etc. told him they're equally as "bad," social media > the real world. Come on, everybody knows that.


I really hate it when liberals disagree with me on Islam especially where it makes it seem like I'm just an ignorant islamophobe. 

I will defend certain muslims over certain things sure ... but when it comes to things like their views on blasphemy, rape, child marriage, female oppression and LGBT issues, Muslims as whole in huge chunks are and will remain the _most _backward group in the world - bar none. And I'm very confident in making those claims. 

The muslims that have liberal views on those issues are in a _huge _minority which is why they are able to accomplish *NOTHING *on those issues in the vast majority of their own countries. Also, Muslims will oppose advancement in those areas in any country where they hold a reasonable majority even if they are an overall minority. 

The sample size liberals really have are their random Muslim friends that they met in college (or none at all) .. But they're the ones that have to put an outward show of acceptance and tolerance because they want to be tolerated themselves ... It does not mean that they are tolerant or make any positive contributions to the world when it comes to being truly accepting.


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## Miss Sally (Jul 14, 2014)

*Re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



Reaper said:


> Yes, thank you BM. Thank you for showing me the truth. Me, an ignorant ex-muslim who has lived in Malaysia, Dubai, Pakistan, Canada and now the American South the truth about how Muslims are not more homophobic than Christians. Thank you. They are absolutely equally homophobic as christians are. Yes Yes. Thank you for proving that to me.
> 
> I'm glad we have liberals like you to put us ex-muslims who only lived amongst muslims in our place and telling us the truth because what we saw and heard and experienced with our own senses was just an elaborate fantasy we created fpalm


Don'tcha know that all Religions are equally bad Reaper? That there aren't certain ones that seem to be worse, nope all the same. Just like criminals, all criminals are exactly the same and all commit crimes equal to each other. :quite EXACTLY THE SAME. The only time Liberals preach "true equality" is when they compare Islam to other Religions. Then suddenly everything is equal, nothing is worse than the other.


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## SHIVV-EAUX-EMME-GEEE (Sep 12, 2013)

*Re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

Is the 59 death toll accurate? I keep seeing 50, and a WSJ article just cited 49 as the current total.


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## KO Bossy (Oct 23, 2011)

*Re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



gamegenie said:


> what a ridiculous thing to say.
> 
> The 10 commandments can and still should be followed today.


Perhaps I wasn't clear. SOME parts of the Bible are applicable today. 10 Commandments, golden rule, etc. Stoning unfaithful women, anti-gay messages, people who actually believe the World is 6,000 years old and was created in 7 days...following the Bible to that degree is insane, and letting nearly 2000 year old beliefs like these govern 2016 life is stupid. Times change and the Bible needs an update.


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## Bearodactyl (Apr 2, 2012)

*Re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



gamegenie said:


> what a ridiculous thing to say.
> 
> The 10 commandments can and still should be followed today.





3ku1 said:


> IF anything it is pretty sad if you don't use 10 commandments to govern your life in 2016. They are applicable now more then ever.


I think the question then becomes, do you really need a 2000 year old book to tell you that those things are wrong? 
Like, if the 10 commandments weren't a thing, would you be sitting at home going "well, I'm not sure about this murder thing, I wish some higher power would tell me if it's bad or not"? I kinda doubt it..

And for the record, the gent :quite you are quoting claimed it a strange concept to follow the teachings of the entire book, not just the highlight reel. The 10 commandments are great and all, but they're basically just the world's first clickbait. "10 things that make you a total dick" "read more on the next page"! Human constructs and interactions are a tad more complicated than that, which is where the rest of the book is supposed to come in, but turns out that part is much more "out of date" compared to the 10 commandments and is heavily influenced by certain outdated concepts like, for instance, homosexuality being somehow existentially wrong. Which makes it super easy for both stupid as well as bigoted people to feel justified in their own feelings on these matters, which is where religion becomes a farce of what it is supposed to be and represent. 

That being said, I could go on but the shooting this weekend has somehow taken the will to debate out of me for the time being. So much hate in the world, so much anger. It's so alien of a concept to me, hating others in this fashion, it baffles the mind.


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## deepelemblues (Sep 26, 2011)

*Re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



KO Bossy said:


> Perhaps I wasn't clear. SOME parts of the Bible are applicable today. 10 Commandments, golden rule, etc. Stoning unfaithful women, anti-gay messages, people who actually believe the World is 6,000 years old and was created in 7 days...following the Bible to that degree is insane, and letting nearly 2000 year old beliefs like these govern 2016 life is stupid. Times change and the Bible needs an update.


Something isn't stupid just because it's old. Every good principle you believe in has been thought up in one form or another by someone hundreds or thousands of years ago because it's just a fallacy to believe even implicitly that people today are smarter or better or something than they were 2000 years ago. 

Even the most conservative Jew understands, if he is not ignorant, that certain books of the Old Testament were written at a specific time in a specific place for a specific purpose and were meant for the Jews of that time and place and not for all Jews of all times and places. That is very widely accepted Jewish theology. A similarly non-rigid theology is very widely accepted in Christianity, in that people have the reason to recognize that the Bible's meaning can be deciphered by that reason. That's probably the biggest reason that the Papacy freaked out over Martin Luther and the other protestants. They were saying regular people should be able read the Bible, Church services should be in the local language not in Latin which the common people don't understand, people can draw their own conclusions from what the Bible says. Of course they all said that their own particular conclusions were the only correct ones just like the Pope said about Catholicism's conclusions on what the text of the Bible meant, but allowing differences of opinion on such vital matters was seen as a path to political strife, civil wars, and general bad stuff. Which it usually was, if you undermined the legitimacy of a noble's or a churchman's religious beliefs you undermined his political legitimacy too back then. His right to his lands, his offices, everything. 

The point is is that the Bible has been updated by a never-ending supply of new arguments about its meaning that have caught on to a greater or lesser degree with Christians ever since there was a Bible to argue about.



Bearodactyl said:


> I think the question then becomes, do you really need a 2000 year old book to tell you that those things are wrong?
> Like, if the 10 commandments weren't a thing, would you be sitting at home going "well, I'm not sure about this murder thing, I wish some higher power would tell me if it's bad or not"? I kinda doubt it..


Nobody should get any credit for anything really under this standard.



> And for the record, the gent :quite you are quoting claimed it a strange concept to follow the teachings of the entire book, not just the highlight reel. The 10 commandments are great and all, but they're basically just the world's first clickbait. "10 things that make you a total dick" "read more on the next page"! Human constructs and interactions are a tad more complicated than that, which is where the rest of the book is supposed to come in, but turns out that part is much more "out of date" compared to the 10 commandments and is heavily influenced by certain outdated concepts like, for instance, homosexuality being somehow existentially wrong. Which makes it super easy for both stupid as well as bigoted people to feel justified in their own feelings on these matters, which is where religion becomes a farce of what it is supposed to be and represent.


Do you think theologies are made up by 9 year olds instead of adults, who were just as complicated and sophisticated as you are, despite your skepticism? 

Do you really think 2000 years from now there aren't going to be people looking back at things _you_ believe and wondering how you could possibly be so simplistic and out of date? Humans love to be dicks, you can be sure that they'll be saying the same shit about us.


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## KO Bossy (Oct 23, 2011)

*Re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



Vic Capri said:


> #OrlandoStrong #GayLivesMatter
> 
> - Vic


UGH.

I see people wasted no time in drumming up a bunch of hooplah so they can push their agendas...


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## Jersey (Jun 24, 2014)

*Re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

Everyone should stick together rather than being against each other.


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## Bearodactyl (Apr 2, 2012)

*Re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



deepelemblues said:


> Nobody should get any credit for anything really under this standard.


I'm not sure what you mean by "get credit" in this context. What I was trying to get at is that your average even remotely emphatic person doesn't need the 10 commandments to tell them right from wrong, I'm sure you'd agree with that.



deepelemblues said:


> Do you think theologies are made up by 9 year olds instead of adults, who were just as complicated and sophisticated as you are, despite your skepticism?
> 
> Do you really think 2000 years from now there aren't going to be people looking back at things _you_ believe and wondering how you could possibly be so simplistic and out of date? Humans love to be dicks, you can be sure that they'll be saying the same shit about us.


Oh no you misunderstand, I think theologies are made up by complicated, sophisticated minds and great thinkers.. 

Of their time. 

But things change, times change, and we should keep re-examining values and points of view wholeheartedly, not hold on to doctrine that can not possibly be with the times anymore, as your final comment so perfectly exemplifies. 

Because I'm sure things WILL be very different that many years from now, and there's a high likelihood people will be like "they used to do/say WHAT NOW? NO WAY!" even 50 years from now. And I don't expect them to see things the way I do now, I just hope that what I consider basic modern values (equality and equal rights, freedom of speech, those sort of things) remain upheld. But I can't look into the future so :draper2


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## manstis1804 (Jan 31, 2010)

*Re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

This tragedy seems almost built to divide us. Because it was done by a person claiming alleigence to ISIS, and Hezbollah, and Al-Quaeda, pretty much trying to fuck with us. And it was done in the manner that other mass shootings in the US are done. So we predictably split down the lines: people who are more worried about Islamic terror go to that, people who are more worried about gun violence to go that, those who are more worried about LGBT issues go to that. IT'S ALL OF IT. 

I posted some anti-automatic weapons stuff earlier in the thread, and I stand by the ideas, if not the half-baked details and tone. But this is so much deeper than just guns. This is about religion, this is about mental illness, this is about sensationalism, this is about intolerance. 

There's these huge concepts that have no easy solutions, so to me you go to what can we do first? And that's where gun laws come in, trying to practically solve part of the issue. I see no reason why can't try to do that while figuring out how to combat these more nebulous, larger concepts. But in no way to do I think "ban 'assault weapons', problem solved!" 

The way ISIS operates also seems designed to divide: they exploit our politically correct culture and need to not be seen as bigots, then use bigotry as a recruiting tool, so everyone is yelling at each other for being the problem. Truly diabolical shit, how on earth do you combat that? Is there a "sweet spot" we can find? And how do you find it?


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## birthday_massacre (Jan 30, 2013)

*Re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



Reaper said:


> Yes, thank you BM. Thank you for showing me the truth. Me, an ignorant ex-muslim who has lived in Malaysia, Dubai, Pakistan, Canada and now the American South the truth about how Muslims are not more homophobic than Christians. Thank you. They are absolutely equally homophobic as christians are. Yes Yes. Thank you for proving that to me.
> 
> I'm glad we have liberals like you to put us ex-muslims who only lived amongst muslims in our place and telling us the truth because what we saw and heard and experienced with our own senses was just an elaborate fantasy we created fpalm



Both books teach hate for gays. I also love your logic oh you are an ex Muslim so you know that Muslims are more likely to homophobic than Christians yet I am an ex Christian and whose they are both as likely.

Your logic does not even make sense. You are ex Muslim and I am an ex christian but you think because you are ex muslim that you are right and I am wrong?


The US is a christian nation and you see every day all the hate that gays get. But I guess that doesn't count.




Reaper said:


> I really hate it when liberals disagree with me on Islam especially where it makes it seem like I'm just an ignorant islamophobe.
> 
> I will defend certain muslims over certain things sure ... but when it comes to things like their views on blasphemy, rape, child marriage, female oppression and LGBT issues, Muslims as whole in huge chunks are and will remain the _most _backward group in the world - bar none. And I'm very confident in making those claims.
> 
> ...


You are debating what religion is more homophobic Islam vs Christianity. You are an ex Muslim, I am an ex Christian. So you think because you are ex Muslim you know better than someone that is an ex Christian?

Your logic is seriously flawed and its hilarious. Both groups are just as homophobic since both books tell their follows that gays should be put to death.
But dont let the facts get in the way of your opinion


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## Reaper (Sep 4, 2013)

*Re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



birthday_massacre said:


> Both books teach hate for gays. I also love your logic oh you are an ex Muslim so you know that Muslims are more likely to homophobic than Christians yet I am an ex Christian and whose they are both as likely.
> 
> Your logic does not even make sense. You are ex Muslim and I am an ex christian but you think because you are ex muslim that you are right and I am wrong?
> 
> ...


No. The logic is that I have more experience living amongst hundreds of thousands of muslims and interacting with them daily as friends, colleagues, co-workers, doctors, lawyers, etc etc as well as the same number of years of experience living in christian countries interacting with christians, reading their media, seeing what's happening in their societies with my own eyes to say with absolute certainty that far more muslims are more homophobic than christians. 

Also: 
Look at the laws of the majority Muslim countries
Look at the regularity of the murders of homosexuals in muslim countries
Look at the fact that the vast majority of gay muslims HAVE to seek asylum in western countries whereas we have 0 movement of gays from christian countries to muslim countries and it will never happen 
Look at the gallup polls on attitudes towards muslims in muslim countries and vice versa
Look at the worst muslim countries and the conditions of gays and compare them to the worst christian countries
Look at the best muslims countries and the conditions of gays compare them to the best christian countries. 

Across the board, you'll find that Muslims are more homophobic than Christians. 

Sorry, but in no way shape or form are Christians and Muslims EQUALLY intolerant. For fuck's sake man. Don't ever say that muslims are equally homophobic to christians. That is just not true AT all. 

Talk to me when gay marriage is legalized in every muslim country and when every muslim country has a gay pride month and then tell me that muslims are just as tolerant of gays as christians.


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## birthday_massacre (Jan 30, 2013)

*Re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



Reaper said:


> No. The logic is that I have more experience living amongst hundreds of thousands of muslims and interacting with them daily as friends, colleagues, co-workers, doctors, lawyers, etc etc as well as the same number of years of experience living in christian countries interacting with christians, reading their media, seeing what's happening in their societies with my own eyes to say with absolute certainty that far more muslims are more homophobic than christians.
> 
> Look at the laws.
> Look at the gallup polls.
> ...


Both religions teach you should kill gays. You also are homophobic or you are not. There are no degrees of it. You can't be a little homophobic.


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## Reaper (Sep 4, 2013)

*Re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



birthday_massacre said:


> Both religions teach you should kill gays. You also are homophobic or you are not. There are no degrees of it. You can't be a little homophobic.


OMG ... That is the dumbest argument I've heard on here on the subject ??? There are no degrees of homophobia? Did the Young Turks come up with this gem of an argument. 

Also, my argument includes the fact that more muslims are homophobic as compared to christians. 

Stop turning this into a black or white thing when it isn't.


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## birthday_massacre (Jan 30, 2013)

*Re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



Reaper said:


> OMG ... That is the dumbest argument I've heard on here on the subject ??? There are no degrees of homophobia? Did the Young Turks come up with this gem of an argument.
> 
> Also, my argument includes the fact that more muslims are homophobic as compared to christians.
> 
> Stop turning this into a black or white thing when it isn't.


No there are no degrees of homophobia. Either you are homophobic or you are not. Its just like racism. You are not a little racist or a lot racist. Either are you racist or you aren't.


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## Reaper (Sep 4, 2013)

*Re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



birthday_massacre said:


> No there are no degrees of homophobia. Either you are homophobic or you are not. Its just like racism. You are not a little racist or a lot racist. Either are you racist or you aren't.


Of course there's degrees of homophobia. And here they are on a scale of 1-10 from least homophobic to most homophobic:

1. I don't like gays because they're gay, but I don't care if they get married or not
2. Gays shouldn't donate blood on principal because AIDS (doesn't even matter if they're screened or not)
3. Gays shouldn't be allowed to get married, but they can do whatever they want in their bedrooms
4. God hates ****
5. Gays are sinners and they'll all burn in hell. Just found out my employee is gay. I'm going to secretly find a way to fire him. 
6. My son is gay and I'm never going to speak to him for the rest of his life
7. "Kill all gays" (but doesn't actually do it)
8. Beats up a gay guy just for being gay
9. Kills a gay friend when he's accidentally outed. 
10. Sees 2 guys kissing and kills 50 in a gay bar. I don't give a fuck about what anyone thinks. I'm doing this for god. 

There are clearly more christians that fall in the 1-6 camp and more Muslims that fall into the 5-10 camp with each falling somewhere in that spectrum (and this includes non-religious homophobes as well). 

You tell me you can't see the different in the different / increasing level of homophobia here at all? Also, have you looked at the fucking facts that I'm talking about? Have you found anything at all outside of 1 or 2 Muslim countries (which are still a minority) that are even remotely as accepting as the majority of western countries (which were all at one point dominating by christians)? 

This "lack of degree" argument is ridiculous. A similar thing exists in racism as well. 

The fact that some of you liberals absolutely refuse to see any sort of nuance existing is one of the reasons why we have a lockdown in discussions in america.

Also, stop using the hippie westerner liberal muslims as the barometer of all muslims. Don't talk down to me about my experience in the third world of Islam where the majority of muslims exist and are in enough power to force their views on everyone.


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## birthday_massacre (Jan 30, 2013)

*Re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



Reaper said:


> Of course there's degrees of homophobia. And here they are on a scale of 1-10 from least homophobic to most homophobic:
> 
> 1. I don't like gays because they're gay, but I don't care if they get married or not
> 2. Gays shouldn't donate blood on principal because AIDS (doesn't even matter if they're screened or not)
> ...



All those people are still homophobic. There is no difference between any of them. They are all as bad as each other. All of them are ignorant and bigoted. What you do with your homophobia has nothing to do with is you are homophobic or not. Because if you want go based on the bible killing gays is what god wants so its technically not bad. RIGHT?


You are the only one who is ignoring the facts.

True or false.

Both Christianity and Islam are against gays?


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## 2 Ton 21 (Dec 28, 2011)

*Re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

So you don't see a difference between the guy that makes racist jokes and doesn't want a black guy dating his daughter and the guy with swastika tattoos that's wants all black people wiped from the face of the Earth? They're both racist, but one is more racist than the other

The same way that a ******* that says gay guys kissing makes him want to vomit is homophobic, but not as bad as the guys that take gay men to the tops of buildings and throw them off.


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## Reaper (Sep 4, 2013)

*Re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



birthday_massacre said:


> All those people are still homophobic. There is no difference between any of them. They are all as bad as each other. All of them are ignorant and bigoted. What you do with your homophobia has nothing to do with is you are homophobic or not. Because if you want go based on the bible killing gays is what god wants so its technically not bad. RIGHT?
> 
> 
> You are the only one who is ignoring the facts.
> ...


"There is no difference between any of them. They are all as bad as each other" ... Wow. Wow. Just Wow. fpalm 

No they're not. Next you'll be telling me that smoking weed is just as bad as killing someone just because they're both crimes and there is no such thing as a small crime and a big crime. Or that killing one person in self-defense is as bad as killing 50 people because they both resulted in a death .. I'm glad we have more balanced people that understand these differences making our legislative decisions now. In the past humans were actually incapable of differentiating and that's why they came up with blanket punishments for everything. They were incapable of understanding that some things are not as bad as others ...


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## birthday_massacre (Jan 30, 2013)

*Re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



Reaper said:


> "There is no difference between any of them. They are all as bad as each other" ... Wow. Wow. Just Wow. fpalm
> 
> No they're not. Next you'll be telling me that smoking weed is just as bad as killing someone just because they're both crimes and there is no such thing as a small crime and a big crime. Or that killing one person in self-defense is as bad as killing 50 people because they both resulted in a death .. I'm glad we have more balanced people that understand these differences making our legislative decisions now. In the past humans were actually incapable of differentiating and that's why they came up with blanket punishments for everything. They were incapable of understanding that some things are not as bad as others ...


Answer the question

TRUE OR FALSE

Christianity and Islam both teach their followers to be against gays


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## gamegenie (Aug 14, 2011)

*Re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



Bearodactyl said:


> I think the question then becomes, do you really need a 2000 year old book to tell you that those things are wrong?
> Like, if the 10 commandments weren't a thing, would you be sitting at home going "well, I'm not sure about this murder thing, I wish some higher power would tell me if it's bad or not"? I kinda doubt it..
> 
> And for the record, the gent :quite you are quoting claimed it a strange concept to follow the teachings of the entire book, not just the highlight reel. The 10 commandments are great and all, but they're basically just the world's first clickbait. "10 things that make you a total dick" "read more on the next page"! Human constructs and interactions are a tad more complicated than that, which is where the rest of the book is supposed to come in, but turns out that part is much more "out of date" compared to the 10 commandments and is heavily influenced by certain outdated concepts like, for instance, homosexuality being somehow existentially wrong. Which makes it super easy for both stupid as well as bigoted people to feel justified in their own feelings on these matters, which is where religion becomes a farce of what it is supposed to be and represent.
> ...


You need to read 1 Corinthians 3:16-19


----------



## Reaper (Sep 4, 2013)

*Re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



birthday_massacre said:


> Answer the question
> 
> TRUE OR FALSE
> 
> Christianity and Islam both teach their followers to be against gays


Leading question is very much a logical fallacy and this indicates that you no longer have an argument therefore you want to direct it into a false dichotomy. 

Your question is irrelevant to the discussion because the answer of this question does not address the issue of whether or not more Muslims are more homophobic than Christians and why which is what the discussion is really about. You want to over-simplify it and don't want to actually introduce facts and stats to the discussion. Very, very, very, very, very intellectually dishonest and I hate to say this, but at this point it's intentionally being led into that direction.


----------



## birthday_massacre (Jan 30, 2013)

*Re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



Reaper said:


> Leading question is very much a logical fallacy and this indicates that you no longer have an argument therefore you want to direct it into a false dichotomy.
> 
> Your question is irrelevant to the discussion because the answer of this question does not address the issue of whether or not more Muslims are more homophobic than Christians and why which is what the discussion is really about. You want to over-simplify it and don't want to actually introduce facts and stats to the discussion. Very, very, very, very, very intellectually dishonest and I hate to say this, but at this point it's intentionally being led into that direction.


Its not irrelevant to the discussion but you ignore it because proves my point both religions are just as homophobic Both religions teach they followers to hate gays. My point was people love to focus on oh Muslims hating on gays or killing gays but its much bigger deal than when Christians do it. 

Even if I say sure more Muslims tend to be homophobic vs Christians that is what is really irrelevant to the discussion since both religions have groups that hate gays but Muslims just get more shit for it when in the US its mess less with Muslins than it is with Christians. 

Even if there are more Muslims in the world that hate gays there are more christians in the US than hate gays than Muslims and since we are talking about the US here, it should be a bigger deal when Christians do the somethings as Muslims do when it comes to gays.

And LOL at your weed vs killing someone. That is a nice non sequitur you have there. 

the problem with people like you is, you put one religion over another and claim its worst when they are all just as bad as one another The only difference is people make excuses for the bible to defend Christianity where as with Islam they just dont.

Christianity and Islam are both as homophobic as one another.

Christians and Muslims are just as bad as each other the it comes to homophobia.


----------



## Reaper (Sep 4, 2013)

*Re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



birthday_massacre said:


> Its not irrelevant to the discussion but you ignore it because proves my point both religions are *just as *homophobic


I don't need to ignore the question and I didn't. I gave the question the treatment it deserved, by pointing out that the question is a logical fallacy and also by asking you _how _does the answer of your question address the fact that _both _Islam and Christianity are *JUST AS* homophobic and that Christians are *just as *homophobic as Muslims. How does your question and it's premeditated answer accomplish that?


----------



## birthday_massacre (Jan 30, 2013)

*Re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



Reaper said:


> I don't need to ignore the question and I didn't. I gave the question the treatment it deserved, by pointing out that the question is a logical fallacy and also by asking you _how _does the answer of your question address the fact that _both _Islam and Christianity are *JUST AS* homophobic and that Christians are *just as *homophobic as Muslims. How does your question and it's premeditated answer accomplish that?


Which ever group has a bigger number of homophobes is what is really the irrelevant thing since both groups have huge numbers of homophobes and should be treated equally. 

Just because you have group A with 100 homophobes and group B has 50 homophobes that doesn't mean that great B shouldn't be talked about like group A is.

Also there are way more causal christians thees there are causal muslims. The people that follow the bible as every bit as homophobic as the muslims that follow the qur'an.


BTW you and 2 Ton 21 made me see what you meant with degrees of racism or homophobia I can see where you are coming from and what you are talking about, I can agree with what you are saying.

When it comes to racist or homophobia i just tend to go with either you are or you aren't. But you both made good points about the degrees, so I can concede that point now. 

I usually think of it on the lower end like oh someone is a little racist and say no they are racist, but the extreme examples are what swayed me because you can be an extremist when it comets racist or homophobia , so you did change my mind on that now that i think about it more. Because even I looking back have said oh that kid is super racist without thinking.

So thanks for making me think deeper about that


----------



## Bearodactyl (Apr 2, 2012)

*Re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



gamegenie said:


> You need to read 1 Corinthians 3:16-19


Out of curiosity, what is it you think it is I would deduce from this writing by doing so? I've read it btw, just don't want to assume I know exactly why you "recommended" it to me under these circumstances. Although I clearly have some ideas on the matter.


----------



## deepelemblues (Sep 26, 2011)

*Re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

There are hundreds if not thousands of Christian churches where gays can get married.

There are hundreds if not thousands of openly gay Christian preachers.

You can count the number of gay-friendly mosques and openly gay imams on the entire planet with two hands. 

50 homosexuals were just slaughtered by a Muslim because they were gay. Hundreds of alleged homosexuals have been murdered by ISIS in Syria and Iraq. Alleged homosexuals are regularly lynched in Muslim-majority countries, there are anti-gay riots, multitudes of Islamic preachers openly say all around the world that homosexuality is a sin worthy of death.

There is no comparable behavior in Christian-majority countries, or among the Christian priesthood. Mobs of Christians don't riot because teh gheys are getting too uppity. Christians don't roam the streets lynching alleged homosexuals.

But they are both just as homophobic, just as bad.

Get the fuck outta here.

Also get the fuck outta here with telling Christians what real Christian beliefs are, how arrogant and fucked up. Disgusting. I dunno where you get the idea that you can tell members of a group they hate that they aren't following their beliefs that you hate correctly, because if they were, they'd conform to your hateful stereotype of them better. How dare they not be the monsters you think they are? They are not conforming to your stereotype and your stereotype is of course a true and accurate picture of them. 

I suspect you get the idea from the same place shit comes from.


----------



## Reaper (Sep 4, 2013)

*Re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



birthday_massacre said:


> Just because you have group A with 100 homophobes and group B has 50 homophobes that doesn't mean that great B shouldn't be talked about like group A is.


I'll make this really simple for you: Numbers = Power 

Tell the fact that number of people don't matter to Bernie supporters because that's what power is all about. 

It definitely matters when there are more of one than the other fpalm

If you have a country with 1000 muslim homophobes and one with 500 christian homophobes, but 10,000 non-homophobes, the homophobes will be less discriminated against. 

*But
*
If you have a country with 1 million muslim homophobes and 500,000 christian homophobes, but 100,000 non-homophobes. Guess what's gonna happen to the gays? 

Now a little more nuance since I have a little time before my pizza is ready:

If you have a country with 1 million Muslims that fall in the 6-10 degree of homophobia .. and you have another country with 1 million Christians that fall within the 1-5 degree of homophobia. Which country's gays will be happier? 

Yeah. That's why numbers and degrees matter. I hope you understand why this specific nuance is so important and why I brought up this argument in the first place. I laid it out really simply for you to be able to understand.

And in reality, this is what we actually do see. We have christian countries that aren't as homophobic as muslim countries which is why gays are happier in christian countries and are running away from muslim countries to seek asylum in christian countries ...


----------



## deepelemblues (Sep 26, 2011)

*Re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



Reaper said:


> Yeah. That's why numbers and degrees matter. I hope you understand why this specific nuance is so important and why I brought up this argument in the first place. I laid it out really simply for you to be able to understand.
> 
> And in reality, this is what we actually do see. We have christian countries that aren't as homophobic as muslim countries which is why gays are happier in christian countries and are running away from muslim countries to seek asylum in christian countries ...


Nope, you'll just get the same old. Those Christians aren't 'real' Christians and if they were they'd be just as homophobic as Muslims. 

The only reason gays are happier in Christian countries is because those Christians aren't following 'real' Christianity. The actual behavior of Christians is irrelevant, what I _say_ 'real' Christianity is _is_ relevant because 'real' Christianity is just as bad as Islam when it comes to gays. See I hate Christianity and that makes me the perfect person for deciding what Christianity 'really' is. That way it will always be something I can hate.

It'll just be another BM bm, he knows better than everyone what they believe and what they should believe. And what they believe and what they should believe is whatever reinforces BM's good or bad prejudices regarding them.


----------



## birthday_massacre (Jan 30, 2013)

*Re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



deepelemblues said:


> There are hundreds if not thousands of Christian churches where gays can get married.
> 
> There are hundreds if not thousands of openly gay Christian preachers.
> 
> ...


Christians tell christians if they dont' follow the bible they are not real christians lol. 
Quick example http://www.patheos.com/blogs/johnsh...telling-me-im-not-a-christian-are-they-right/

Real christian beliefs are exactly what the bible says. You can't cherry pick what to believe and what to not believe. 
there is a reason why Christianity has so many denominations because every time there would be a disagreement they would break off and start their own version.

Also Christians have killed gays they even bomb abortion clinics. 

You proved my point exactly about how people make excuses for Christianity all the time. thanks again


----------



## ST1TCH (Aug 6, 2014)

*Re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

You guys know it's encouraged to murder suspected gays in Islamic countries, right?

Like, if you see a guy with frosted tips it's perfectly legal to throw him off a roof.

Think about that next time you try to act like gays are treated just as badly in Christian countries.


----------



## birthday_massacre (Jan 30, 2013)

*Re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



Reaper said:


> I'll make this really simple for you: Numbers = Power
> 
> Tell the fact that number of people don't matter to Bernie supporters because that's what power is all about.
> 
> ...


I see what you are saying, but even if is twice as many Muslims hate gays as Christians, what I am trying to say is we should focus on both groups of hate and not just the larger number. 

But you made some great points and swayed me on a few things. So good job thanks for giving me a better way of looking at it. 

I do agree that gays will be way happier in christian nations even the ones that are anti gay than muslim.

So I guess we can agree on that


----------



## ST1TCH (Aug 6, 2014)

*Re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



birthday_massacre said:


> Christians tell christians if they dont' follow the bible they are not real christians lol.
> Quick example http://www.patheos.com/blogs/johnsh...telling-me-im-not-a-christian-are-they-right/
> 
> Real christian beliefs are exactly what the bible says. You can't cherry pick what to believe and what to not believe.
> ...


You defend radical Islam a lot in the face of unbeatable facts and figures, and I can only think of one reason at this point.

Well, if you see something...


----------



## Reaper (Sep 4, 2013)

*Re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



birthday_massacre said:


> I see what you are saying, but even if is twice as many Muslims hate gays as Christians, what I am trying to say is we should focus on both groups of hate and not just the larger number.


I do disagree here to. Not with the fact that we shouldn't try to combat the more extreme degrees of homophobia in all communities. But I do think that at this point cannot, simply cannot continue to ignore the primary issues that majority muslim countries have. But yeah, we're starting to get on the same page a little. 

I understand that the liberal point of view is trying to combat Islamophobia (and to an extent that's fine), but unfortunately over the years what I've seen happen is that the real evils of the muslim world that exist in far worse ways than any western liberal can even begin to imagine simply because of their lack of proximity and experience on those countries get talked down. 

Seriously, as a liberal, you somewhat owe me the respect of having had years of experience in several muslim countries to be able to voice what I know to be fact without having that shot down. Do you see where I'm coming from on this? I'm already fighting a losing battle with people of my own country, I don't need to face that opposition from people that should be my allies simply because they don't truly understand the evils that still exist in the Muslim world.

The primary difference you need to know is that the liberal muslim is closer in opinions to the conservative christian .. and if you hear the word "conservative muslim" you should immediately think of someone that's at least 10 degrees worse than the conservative christian. Both those terms mean completely different things because Islam is still about 1000 years behind christianity in terms of updating itself on many issues.


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## birthday_massacre (Jan 30, 2013)

*Re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



ST1TCH said:


> You defend radical Islam a lot in the face of unbeatable facts and figures, and I can only think of one reason at this point.
> 
> Well, if you see something...


How do I defend radical Islam when I am against all religion? That is a pretty neat trick you did there.


----------



## SHIVV-EAUX-EMME-GEEE (Sep 12, 2013)

*Re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

God forbid the death toll rise any higher, but the accurate number is 49 and the title needs to be corrected.


----------



## deepelemblues (Sep 26, 2011)

*Re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



> Christians tell christians if they dont' follow the bible they are not real christians lol.


Which is the apple to your orange, it's completely unsurprising that you don't understand the difference between members of a group arguing over what constitutes the true beliefs of that group, and someone who hates the group telling its members what their true beliefs 'really' are.



> Quick example http://www.patheos.com/blogs/johnsho...re-they-right/


1. You and I are members of a club.

This club's membership requires certain beliefs.

We disagree about those beliefs.

I say you are not a real member.

2. You are a member of a club.

That club's membership requires certain beliefs.

Some guy who is not a member of the club, who in fact hates the club, tells you what he says those beliefs are.

You disagree.

He says you are not a real member of the club.

See the difference?

Probably not.



> Real christian beliefs are exactly what the bible says. You can't cherry pick what to believe and what to not believe.


So the only real Christianity is the most literal interpretation of the Bible possible.

There is no room for metaphor or allegory or parable. There is no room for disagreement about meaning.

This describes a Christianity that has never existed. It is a stereotype Christianity that exists only in the minds of bigots.



> there is a reason why Christianity has so many denominations because every time there would be a disagreement they would break off and start their own version.


How this supports your stereotype nonexistent Christianity assertion is a mystery greater than that of Eleusis.



> Also Christians have killed gays they even bomb abortion clinics.


How many?

How often?

What has been the reaction of the great mass of Christians? 

The police who investigate such attacks and arrest the suspects are overwhelmingly Christian.

The prosecutors who try them are overwhelmingly Christian.

The judges who preside over their trials are overwhelmingly Christian.

The juries who convict them are overwhelmingly Christian.

The prison guards who keep them locked up are overwhelmingly Christian.

The last six sentences I have written would not be true statements if I replaced "Christian" with "Muslim." People who kill homosexuals are not held to account and brought to punishment by Muslims in Muslim societies. Yet they are brought to account and punished by Christians in Christian societies.

Now that does this imply... it's rather obvious.



> You proved my point exactly about how people make excuses for Christianity all the time. thanks again


If you were not such an impenetrable bigot you'd be thanking me right now for increasing your knowledge about the historical and contemporary operation of Christian churches and the development of Christian theology. It would give you insight and increase your understanding of the history of homophobia in Christianity, because everything I have described, the competition of ideas and search for meaning through reason, also played a role in the development of the idea that homosexuality is a sin in Christianity just as it is playing a role in the recent change in many Christians' attitudes towards homosexuals. 

Instead you stick your tongue out like a child.


----------



## birthday_massacre (Jan 30, 2013)

*Re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



Reaper said:


> I do disagree here to. Not with the fact that we shouldn't try to combat the more extreme degrees of homophobia in all communities. But I do think that at this point cannot, simply cannot continue to ignore the primary issues that majority muslim countries have. But yeah, we're starting to get on the same page a little.
> 
> I understand that the liberal point of view is trying to combat Islamophobia (and to an extent that's fine), but unfortunately over the years what I've seen happen is that the real evils of the muslim world that exist in far worse ways than any western liberal can even begin to imagine simply because of their lack of proximity and experience on those countries get talked down.
> 
> ...



OH its ok to disagree with that part, I just was trying to clarify what I was saying. 

Like I said christianity and islam are both evil, I just think that people need to stop making excuses for Christianly because they dont with Islam.

I do see where you are coming from, and I apologize if i did not show you respect. I do see where you are coming from, but like I said what I am trying to say is, people need to treat christian terrorist attacks the same as muslim terrorist attacks.

You made a lot of great points and like I said you changed my view on sometimes since you gave me a better way of looking at it.


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## Reaper (Sep 4, 2013)

*Re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



birthday_massacre said:


> You made a lot of great points and like I said you changed my view on sometimes since you gave me a better way of looking at it.


And that's why I keep plugging away at people as much as I possibly can 

I even let my Pizza go cold ... So yah.


----------



## deepelemblues (Sep 26, 2011)

*Re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



> I do see where you are coming from, but like I said what I am trying to say is, people need to treat christian terrorist attacks the same as muslim terrorist attacks.


Really? Because telling Christians what their real beliefs should be doesn't seem to have anything to do with treating Muslim terrorist attacks the same as Christian terrorist attacks.

Maybe Christian terrorist attacks are treated differently because they kill far fewer people by an order of magnitude, occur in numbers an order of magnitude smaller than the number of Muslim terrorist attacks (over 25,000 since September 11 2001, you think there have been 25,000 Christian terrorist attacks in the same period?), and have not occurred in dozens of different countries the way Muslim terrorist attacks have?

Maybe that's why.

There are 5+ Muslim terrorist attacks _every day,_ spread across the entire world. At least five times a day, Islamist assholes around the globe try to kill people specifically because they think Allah said so. Maybe Christian terrorist attacks get a lower priority because Christians aren't trying to kill people because God said so at least 5 times a day?


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## gamegenie (Aug 14, 2011)

*Re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



Bearodactyl said:


> Out of curiosity, what is it you think it is I would deduce from this writing by doing so? I've read it btw, just don't want to assume I know exactly why you "recommended" it to me under these circumstances. Although I clearly have some ideas on the matter.


That verse talks about the Lord's holy spirit that exists within us. The Holy spirit is what gives you the conscious thought of what is right and what is wrong. It was in relation to your quote:



> *do you really need a 2000 year old book to tell you that those things are wrong? *
> Like, if the 10 commandments weren't a thing, would you be sitting at home going "well, I'm not sure about this murder thing, I wish some higher power would tell me if it's bad or not"? *I kinda doubt it..*


The problem is, we are human and we will ignore that internal thought and thus sin. Hence God created the Moses laws for us to follow.

Did you also read verse 18 and 19, at it addresses like minded individuals like you and a few other non-believers here who think you've figured the World out?


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## Bearodactyl (Apr 2, 2012)

*Re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



gamegenie said:


> That verse talks about the Lord's holy spirit that exists within us. The Holy spirit is what gives you the conscious thought of what is right and what is wrong. It was in relation to your quote:


That's not so much of an argument, and more of a statement really. It is because it is. Sorry, but I don't know how to work with that.



gamegenie said:


> The problem is, we are human and we will ignore that internal thought and thus sin. Hence God created the Moses laws for us to follow.


Except I don't. Ignore that internal thought, I mean. And I'm not religious (brought up that way yes, but I grew out of it) so I don't follow the Moses laws because they are the moses laws. I follow them because they just so happen to align with my own personal inner compass. It's why I don't kill, don't steal, it's not because I think a higher power tells me to, but because I just think it's the right way to go. 



gamegenie said:


> Did you also read verse 18 and 19, at it addresses like minded individuals like you and a few other non-believers here who think you've figured the World out?


I don't think I've figured the world out, far from it. I think it was Socrates ca 460-400 BC that first said "what I do not know I do not think I know" and his words ring true today. These verses certainly are another clever way of saying that reveling in knowledge blinds you to further and fuller enlightenment. That being said, none of this is an actual counter to the points I've attempted to make earlier on, which you replied to with these verses. 

So with that being said, and because as I said earlier I'm REALLY not in a debate-y mood, I bid you adieu good sir :quite


----------



## Oda Nobunaga (Jun 12, 2006)

*Re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

Pulse wasn't just a "gay" bar. People from all walks of life, sexuality, what have you went there. They just released the names of the 48 of 49 victims. Most are in their 20s. There was one 18 year old. I tried to find someone I knew, but I couldn't. I suppose I should breathe a sigh of relief that no one I knew was killed, but I can't because other people knew those who lost their lives and it doesn't make it any easier that I didn't know 'em. This debate that's going on about Islam and Guns doesn't really matter to me, not right now. All I know is 49 people were killed for no reason. The killer was overheard saying "I hate Blacks, Latinos, and Gays." It was Latin night yesterday in the nightclub. He sure chose a good time to air out his fucking grievances, damn bastard.

May those people rest in peace and their families heal through this.


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## Reaper (Sep 4, 2013)

*Re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



Oda Nobunaga said:


> The killer was overheard saying "I hate Blacks, Latinos, and Gays." It was Latin night yesterday in the nightclub. He sure chose a good time to air out his fucking grievances, damn bastard.
> 
> May those people rest in peace and their families heal through this.


Yeah .. apparently he was just a downright pathetic and horrible human being. 

The only thing I don't get at all is why such a horrible excuse for a human being with so much history of hate and anger issues was allowed to keep a job at a private security firm. And we need to have a conversation about this because that career is very attractive to psychopaths ... and therefore these companies need to either have better hiring practices, or allow themselves to be monitored by an outside agency on an annual basis to determine the mental health of their employees.


----------



## Vic Capri (Jun 7, 2006)

*Re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 50 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*










- Vic


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## Oda Nobunaga (Jun 12, 2006)

*Re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



Reaper said:


> Yeah .. apparently he was just a downright pathetic and horrible human being.
> 
> The only thing I don't get at all is why such a horrible excuse for a human being with so much history of hate and anger issues was allowed to keep a job at a private security firm. And we need to have a conversation about this because that career is very attractive to psychopaths ... and therefore these companies need to either have better hiring practices, or allow themselves to be monitored by an outside agency on an annual basis to determine the mental health of their employees.


Indeed. The guy was investigated not once, but *TWICE* by the FBI. Absolute incompetence on the part of everyone involved and look what happens.


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## gamegenie (Aug 14, 2011)

*Re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



Bearodactyl said:


> That's not so much of an argument, and more of a statement really. It is because it is. Sorry, but I don't know how to work with that.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Of course it's a statement, it is as it is written for you to follow it. Not debate it.


----------



## Reaper (Sep 4, 2013)

*Re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



Oda Nobunaga said:


> Indeed. The guy was investigated not once, but *TWICE* by the FBI. Absolute incompetence on the part of everyone involved and look what happens.


Either it's lack of competence or imo worse a lack of real power in the hands of antiterror agencies to actually do anything in the wake of extreme Islamophobia allegations and liberal backlash. 

Imagine if action was taken against this guy before he shot anything ... yeah the conversation would be different right now and the FBI would be facing Islamophobia charges in federal court...

Their hands are tied. They need more power, not less.


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## deepelemblues (Sep 26, 2011)

*Re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 50 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

The ball was dropped when they didn't keep up some kind of watch on him.

Just because you don't have enough evidence to charge someone like him with a crime - twice! - doesn't mean you shouldn't be keeping track of him.

Nearly all the terrorist attacks in Western countries in the last 5 years, the perpetrators were 'on the radar,' they were 'known' to intelligence and security agencies, but because there wasn't enough evidence to charge them at that time, and there was no evidence they were planning an attack or about to carry out one, they were lost track of. Then a year later, two years later, three years later, they end up killing a bunch of people. 

Time to stop letting these guys disappear into the wind just because they come to our security agencies' attention but there's no justification under our laws to lock them up at that time. Keep an eye on them period. Too many guys who were 'on the radar' and then were allowed to drop off it have ended up slaughtering people later on.


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## gamegenie (Aug 14, 2011)

*Re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 50 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



deepelemblues said:


> The ball was dropped when they didn't keep some kind of watch on him.
> 
> Just because you don't have enough evidence to charge someone like him with a crime - twice! - doesn't mean he should disappear into the aether.


At the very least, they [we as a country] should have AT LEAST had a system in place where if we received information that you contacted enemy combatants (e.g. Al-Quada, ISIS) then your ability to purchase guns should be put on hold. I'm amazed that this guy a week ago was able to go to a gun shop and come out with a handgun and a AR-15 assault rifle, like he was just buying a pack of bubble gum from the corner store. 

We probably couldn't prevent his eventual ability to kill someone, but we have the ability to slow him down and minimum his attack efforts. 



I wonder what prevented that from happening?


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## skypod (Nov 13, 2014)

*Re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 50 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

Shhh don't mention that he shouldn't have been able to purchase the gun. Conservatives will see that as basically saying everyone in the US should be disarmed.


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## just1988 (Jun 15, 2009)

*Re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 50 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

*Allow me to lighten the mood for a second. I wonder in hindsight if this jerk-off could re-evaluate his life what he'd think. After all if he had such a strong belief in Islam, surely the very last place on earth that he saw was a bathroom...of a bar, a gay bar.

Imagine that for a second, I don't want the last thing I ever see to be a bathroom, definitely not one at a public bar (gay or otherwise) what a shitty place to choose to end your life

*Not going to go into how horrific and sad it is that so many people lost their life because it goes without saying and bums me out just thinking about it :/*


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## DOPA (Jul 13, 2012)

*Re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 50 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*

Not going to politicize this. Absolutely horrible events here, RIP to the victims and condolences to the families.


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## gamegenie (Aug 14, 2011)

*Homegrown Terrorist Omar Mateen...a repressed Homosexual?*

BREAKING NEWS :kermit:







*Orlando gunman had used gay dating app and visited LGBT nightclub on other occasions, witnesses say* 
http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-orlando-nightclub-shooting-20160613-snap-story.html


----------



## Gandhi (Sep 15, 2012)

*Re: Homegrown Terrorist Omar Mateen...a repressed Homosexual?*

Well I wouldn't be surprised if he's been planning this attack for a long time.

Calculated muslim degenerate.


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## Reaper (Sep 4, 2013)

*Re: Homegrown Terrorist Omar Mateen...a repressed Homosexual?*



Gandhi said:


> Well I wouldn't be surprised if he's been planning this attack for a long time.
> 
> Calculated muslim degenerate.


You know why people use dating apps and scope out gay bars right ...

Because they're gay ... Not because they hate gays. 

Well, at least he's true to his Pathan roots ... (BTW, anyone that isn't a Pakistani or Pathan probably shouldn't read too much into this comment .. It's a bit of an inside joke based on the fact that a LOT of pathan men are homosexuals.)


----------



## Cliffy (Mar 31, 2011)

*Re: Homegrown Terrorist Omar Mateen...a repressed Homosexual?*

Yeah he was a gay registered democrat

Sent from my LG-D855 using Tapatalk


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## BruiserKC (Mar 14, 2010)

*Re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



deanambroselover said:


> Obama should of banned guns along time ago. More and more people are gonna die cos America wont change their gun laws


This has nothing to do with the banning of guns or not. If that was the case anyway, the ones who would be able to get guns are not the law-abiding ones, but the criminals. They don't follow any bans. Ironically, these folks target soft targets where they know that firearms are banned, such as this nightclub.


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## deepelemblues (Sep 26, 2011)

*Re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 50 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



gamegenie said:


> At the very least, they [we as a country] should have AT LEAST had a system in place where if we received information that you contacted enemy combatants (e.g. Al-Quada, ISIS) then your ability to purchase guns should be put on hold. I'm amazed that this guy a week ago was able to go to a gun shop and come out with a handgun and a AR-15 assault rifle, like he was just buying a pack of bubble gum from the corner store.
> 
> We probably couldn't prevent his eventual ability to kill someone, but we have the ability to slow him down and minimum his attack efforts.
> 
> ...


Yeah the FBI or any law enforcement agency (but I'd prefer it be the FBI since they're one of the few government agencies left that is still semi-competent) should be able to go to a judge, lay out their evidence/suspicions, and if the judge signs off on it then there's a flag in the background check system that comes up and says yeah no legal gun purchases for you. 

It didn't happen because the only way the government can legally strip a person of a constitutional right based on suspicion and such weak evidence as he knew some guy who went to Syria as a jihadi and he said some crazy shit at the water cooler (which were the two initial pieces of evidence that caused the FBI to investigate him twice) is if Congress votes to declare martial law. 

How far we've come since skirting around constitutional protections was a sign that the Bushitler dictatorship was coming eh? Today people are talking about outright denying a constitutional right through a process with no due process protections (no-fly and terror-watch lists) with barely a qualm expressed at the dangerous precedent that would be set. 



> Originally Posted by deanambroselover View Post
> Obama should of banned guns along time ago. More and more people are gonna die cos America wont change their gun laws


Banning guns would cause more death than all the murders of the last decade put together unless the government gave up really quick. So that ain't gonna happen.


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## Gandhi (Sep 15, 2012)




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## Miss Sally (Jul 14, 2014)

Gandhi said:


>


I liked how Sarah Silverman said all serial killers are white but not all whites are serial killers, I laughed so hard because this statement was favored by 20k people, then again I've seen 100% untrue stuff on twitter with high faves. This is totally false, there have been many non-white serial killers. In fact a few years ago Arizona had dual hispanic serial killers there until caught, cannot remember if they were illegal or not. Basically killing 3 or more people makes you a serial killer so technically there are A LOT of non white serial killers who have been caught or otherwise, especially if you consider cartel hitmen. The stupidity and pandering from leftist comics is just astounding.


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## Reaper (Sep 4, 2013)

Miss Sally said:


> I liked how Sarah Silverman said all serial killers are white but not all whites are serial killers, I laughed so hard because this statement was favored by 20k people, then again I've seen 100% untrue stuff on twitter with high faves. This is totally false, there have been many non-white serial killers. In fact a few years ago Arizona had dual hispanic serial killers there until caught, cannot remember if they were illegal or not. Basically killing 3 or more people makes you a serial killer so technically there are A LOT of non white serial killers who have been caught or otherwise, especially if you consider cartel hitmen. The stupidity and pandering from leftist comics is just astounding.


The only reason why there are seemingly more white serial killers is because white dominated countries (and some 1st world far eastern asian countries) are countries only ones that have people (who also happen to be majority white) that are smart enough to put 2 and 2 together and empathic and driven enough to actually go and find them and bring them to justice unlike the rest of the non-white (minus some of the far eastern asian) world that either doesn't value life enough nor has spent that kind of resources in developing the human capital necessary to catch serial killers. 

Simply putting it. White serial killers happen to appear to be "more" in number because white countries have more white people, but _also _more white people that are actually smart and empathic enough to bring them to justice. 

This argument is absolutely irrefutable. White people catch serial killers. Most countries don't even acknowledge their existence let alone figure out all that goes into catching them :shrug


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## yeahbaby! (Jan 27, 2014)

Miss Sally said:


> I liked how Sarah Silverman said all serial killers are white but not all whites are serial killers, I laughed so hard because this statement was favored by 20k people, then again I've seen 100% untrue stuff on twitter with high faves. This is totally false, there have been many non-white serial killers. In fact a few years ago Arizona had dual hispanic serial killers there until caught, cannot remember if they were illegal or not. Basically killing 3 or more people makes you a serial killer so technically there are A LOT of non white serial killers who have been caught or otherwise, especially if you consider cartel hitmen. The stupidity and pandering from leftist comics is just astounding.


You could also gleam from this possibly, is that she's using irony, and in fact lampooning the often shouted concept that all terrorists are muslims. But who knows and who cares, she's a shock comic.


In other news, our best friends Russia were apparently nice enough to arrest a gay couple laying out flowers at the US embassy. How kind.

http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/2016/06/14/russian-gay-couple-arrested-orlando-tribute


----------



## FITZ (May 8, 2007)

*Re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 50 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



gamegenie said:


> At the very least, they [we as a country] should have AT LEAST had a system in place where if we received information that you contacted enemy combatants (e.g. Al-Quada, ISIS) then your ability to purchase guns should be put on hold. I'm amazed that this guy a week ago was able to go to a gun shop and come out with a handgun and a AR-15 assault rifle, like he was just buying a pack of bubble gum from the corner store.
> 
> We probably couldn't prevent his eventual ability to kill someone, but we have the ability to slow him down and minimum his attack efforts.
> 
> ...


This is just discrimination against Muslim citizens.


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## yeahbaby! (Jan 27, 2014)

Reaper said:


> The only reason why there are seemingly more white serial killers is because white dominated countries (and some 1st world far eastern asian countries) are countries only ones that have people (who also happen to be majority white) that are smart enough to put 2 and 2 together and empathic and driven enough to actually go and find them and bring them to justice unlike the rest of the non-white (minus some of the far eastern asian) world that either doesn't value life enough nor has spent that kind of resources in developing the human capital necessary to catch serial killers.
> 
> Simply putting it. White serial killers happen to appear to be "more" in number because white countries have more white people, but _also _more white people that are actually smart and empathic enough to bring them to justice.
> 
> This argument is absolutely irrefutable. White people catch serial killers too.


I think it actually is refutable. 

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/wicked-deeds/201412/serial-killer-myth-6-they-are-all-white

Some snippets below:



> The racial diversity of serial killers generally mirrors that of the overall U.S. population. There are well documented cases of African-American, Latino and Asian-American serial killers.





> African-Americans comprise the largest racial minority group among serial killers, representing approximately 20 percent of the total. Significantly, however, only white, and normally male, serial killers such as Ted Bundy become popular culture icons.





> By a wide margin, most murder victims, including serial murder victims, are from the same race as their killer. In approximately 90 percent of all homicides the killer and victim are from the same race.





> The myth that all serial killers are white is routinely fueled and reinforced by the entertainment news media. This situation persists because the major news outlets, particularly television networks such as HLN, are far more likely to provide coverage of homicides and missing person cases involving white victims than incidents involving racial minority victims.





> The news media are far more likely to cover serial homicide cases involving white, female victims than serial murder cases involving racial minority victims. Ted Bundy and Gary Ridgway, who both killed young, white women and had tremendous coverage of their crimes by the news media, provide powerful examples of this.


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## Reaper (Sep 4, 2013)

yeahbaby! said:


> I think it actually is refutable.
> 
> https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/wicked-deeds/201412/serial-killer-myth-6-they-are-all-white
> 
> Some snippets below:


Huh? It looks like you _completely _misunderstood what I said. 

I'm saying that white serial killers are not more, but they appear to be more because a) they are representative of the populations of white dominated countries (whites are more in these countries therefore obviously there are more white serial killers in number and b) because other white people are smart enough and have dedicated enough resources to actually catch them. 

The reason why there are seemingly fewer serial killers around the world in other races is because most other countries don't bother with catching their serial killers, or can't because they're not smart enough nor have dedicated the resources to catch them. 

Serial killing is not a white problem. It seems like it's one because white people are actually active in hunting and catching them more so than other races in the world. 

I'm not sure why you responded to me with what you responded with ...


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## Miss Sally (Jul 14, 2014)

yeahbaby! said:


> You could also gleam from this possibly, is that she's using irony, and in fact lampooning the often shouted concept that all terrorists are muslims. But who knows and who cares, she's a shock comic.
> 
> 
> In other news, our best friends Russia were apparently nice enough to arrest a gay couple laying out flowers at the US embassy. How kind.
> ...


Except that Islamic terrorism is the biggest thing going on right now, it's not debatable on if more terrorism is committed in the name of Islam or not considering there are over 100+ factions of radical islam. Yet it seems the media and politicians are afraid to point out radical islam is a problem.


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## yeahbaby! (Jan 27, 2014)

Reaper said:


> Huh? It looks like you _completely _misunderstood what I said.
> 
> I'm saying that white serial killers are not more, but they appear to be more because a) they are representative of the populations of white dominated countries (whites are more in these countries therefore obviously there are more white serial killers in number and b) because other white people are smart enough and have dedicated enough resources to actually catch them.
> 
> ...


Maybe I did yes, but I thought the original issue was why do serial killers _appear_ to be majority white yes?

You responded with something which I find a bit weird, I'm getting from you that non-white investigators in other countries don't have the smarts like white people do to catch serial killers which means what, whites are intrinsically smarter? I understand your second point about developing countries not having the resources and that of course relates to catching killers, but it's a big leap to then say the thing about not smart enough also.

What I responded with was people who've done research about serial killer backgrounds and their victim backgrounds, and what sort of serial killer crimes get the most exposure in the media, and perhaps more resources as a side effect. White killers/victims get the most media exposure, that's why people think most serial killers are white. Is that clear?

Do you have any sources to back up your claims?


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## LaMelo (Jan 13, 2015)

Violence will never stop.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## yeahbaby! (Jan 27, 2014)

Miss Sally said:


> Except that Islamic terrorism is the biggest thing going on right now, it's not debatable on if more terrorism is committed in the name of Islam or not considering there are over 100+ factions of radical islam. Yet it seems the media and politicians are afraid to point out radical islam is a problem.


I don't see how that changes the tone of her tweet at all to be honest. If she's trying to make a point about a falsity she's observed, that's the way to do it. If she's not then she's misinformed. Either way, she's just another example of the uselessness of twitter, who really gives a fuck what she thinks about the issue?

Secondly you contradict yourself, you say in the first sentence it's the biggest thing, yet you say in your last that media and politicians are not pointing this big thing out. How did it become big then? I see a world of anti-radical islam published and posted constantly, certainly by plenty of politicians and many sections of the media and tons of it ends up on this site.


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## Reaper (Sep 4, 2013)

yeahbaby! said:


> Maybe I did yes, but I thought the original issue was why do serial killers _appear_ to be majority white yes?
> 
> *You responded with something which I find a bit weird, I'm getting from you that non-white investigators in other countries don't have the smarts like white people do to catch serial killers which means what, whites are intrinsically smarter? I understand your second point about developing countries not having the resources and that of course relates to catching killers, but it's a big leap to then say the thing about not smart enough also.*
> 
> ...


Why? Why do liberals inherently assume that all countries are equally developed with the same kinds of culture as white countries. Unfortunately, other than life experience in multiple countries - something I've had to post several times in this thread I don't have resources to back up my claims because liberals like you will stand up and cry foul if someone actually tried to do any race-based research on things like intelligence levels of the overall population in _other _countries. 

I can totally see people allowing that sort of research to happen at all let alone allow the results of that research be admissable in a discussion :lol 

Interestingly, hippies don't allow race based research (except under extremely controlled conditions), but then make tall claims like everyone is equally "smart" (across all countries) without evidence themselves but then claim evidence provided by someone with decades of experience is meaningless because he doesn't have research that isn't allowed to exist to back up his claims. 

Well played liberal. Well played indeed. 

When I'm talking about "smart" I'm talking about intelligence where intelligence and knowledge are intrinsically linked and therefore even if they have the "intelligence" to be able to catch serial killers, they may not have the knowledge to compliment that intelligence and then compound that issue with fewer resources and millions of other problems that pull them in a million different ways and they don't catch serial killers. 

So yeah, overall people in most countries that are not white dominated don't have people that are smart enough to catch serial killers - hence why you have fewer serial killers in those countries .. not because they don't exist.


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## yeahbaby! (Jan 27, 2014)

Reaper said:


> Why? Why do liberals inherently assume that all countries are equally developed with the same kinds of culture as white countries. Unfortunately, other than life experience in multiple countries - something I've had to post several times in this thread I don't have resources to back up my claims because liberals like you will stand up and cry foul if someone actually tried to do any race-based research on things like intelligence levels in other countries. I can totally see people allowing that sort of research to happen at all let alone allow the results of that research be admissable in a discussion.
> 
> Interestingly, hippies won't allow race based research (except under extremely controlled conditions), make tall claims like everyone is equally "smart" (across all countries) without evidence themselves but then want claim that evidence provided by someone with decades of experience is meaningless because he doesn't have research that isn't allowed to exist to back up his claims.
> 
> ...


Get off your bloody high horse Reaper with this 'my life experience in several countries' stuff. I like your posts because they're well written and thought out but this persistent 'Listen to me because I've lived in several countries and I'm an ex muslim and I'm so well travelled' feeling from you is getting extremely tiresome. Get pissed off at that if you will, but that's how it's coming across like you're above the majority, and I'm sure I'm not the only one sick of reading it.

First of all, I'm not a liberal (I'm from AUS and that term means nothing to us, in fact it's the name of the Conservative party ironically) and I don't put that much time into politics to have or care or even understand properly about a political side; and I wasn't having a snipe at you suggesting you're doing racial profiling I was seriously trying to understand your meaning about this 'smart' stuff because it came across as weird TO ME. I think if you go back and look at your original post the way you used 'smart' wasn't as clear as it is now that you have.

And how can you say I've cried foul about racial research when I've just posted a psychological article about the racial patterns of serial killers and their differences? You've really barked up the wrong tree with me on this I think.

And I did not assume that "that all countries are equally developed with the same kinds of culture as white countries", in fact in my previous post to you i CONCEDED that developing countries would not have the resources to catch killers like the 1st world.

Now, do you have any thoughts on the links I provided with your GIANT, WELL TRAVELLED, INTELLECT? :grin2::grin2::grin2:


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## Miss Sally (Jul 14, 2014)

yeahbaby! said:


> I don't see how that changes the tone of her tweet at all to be honest. If she's trying to make a point about a falsity she's observed, that's the way to do it. If she's not then she's misinformed. Either way, she's just another example of the uselessness of twitter, who really gives a fuck what she thinks about the issue?
> 
> Secondly you contradict yourself, you say in the first sentence it's the biggest thing, yet you say in your last that media and politicians are not pointing this big thing out. How did it become big then? I see a world of anti-radical islam published and posted constantly, certainly by plenty of politicians and many sections of the media and tons of it ends up on this site.


We hear about it but when it happens rarely do they outright say it until certain parts of the media bring it up, even some forms of media downplay it or say Islamic terror has nothing to do with Islam, radical Islam regardless if you hate it or not has stuff to do with Islam. So calling Islamic terrorists, Islamic terrorists shouldn't be something hold back on.

Also I liked your serial killer post, I was reading in a book on serial killers (Cannot remember the name) that many black and hispanic serial killers go unnoticed because they move from poor area to poor area where death rates are higher and people go missing regularly. This would also apply to poor white areas too, the poorer the area the less people are going to notice people missing. It's only when serial killers overstay that people begin to notice, or if they kill in places where crime doesn't happen much. For non-white killers it maybe easier because the media usually only shows white serial killers so they go undetected, it was a pretty good read! I wish I could remember the book as it went into some detail.


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## Reaper (Sep 4, 2013)

yeahbaby! said:


> Get off your bloody high horse Reaper with this 'my life experience in several countries' stuff. I like your posts because they're well written and thought out but this persistent 'Listen to me because I've lived in several countries and I'm an ex muslim and I'm so well travelled' feeling from you is getting extremely tiresome. Get pissed off at that if you will, but that's how it's coming across like you're above the majority, and I'm sure I'm not the only one sick of reading it.


No I won't. And certain things do make others above the majority. Our knowledge and our experiences make certain opinions we hold superior to others' opinions in some things and I feel it necessary to point it out when it does. In some cases there is no research or data that even exists in the first place and many discussions about third world hell holes can't be substantiated with fact because they already lack the ability to contain vast amounts of data needed to substantiate arguments made about those countries. When that happens, the person with the fleshier background and more experience needs to be given the benefit of the doubt. If you've seen me be impartial in other discussions, then at this point you'll just have to trust me. 

This idea that we're all inherently equal is fine. But this idea that our _opinions _are inherently equal is not. 



> First of all, I'm not a liberal (I'm from AUS and that term means nothing to us, in fact it's the name of the Conservative party ironically) and I don't put that much time into politics to have or care or even understand properly about a political side; and I wasn't having a snipe at you suggesting you're doing racial profiling I was seriously trying to understand your meaning about this 'smart' stuff because it came across as weird TO ME. I think if you go back and look at your original post the way you used 'smart' wasn't as clear as it is now that you have.


Fair enough. However, I've read your opinions on this site and based on my experience and knowledge of typical liberal american opinions, yours fall squarely in line on more issues than otherwise noted. I pay more attention to people's point of view than others might know. 



> And how can you say I've cried foul about racial research when I've just posted a psychological article about the racial patterns of serial killers and their differences? You've really barked up the wrong tree with me on this I think.


How would you react if actual research is done and it is determined that Australian Aborigines generally have lower IQ overall than white Aussies ... Then based on that research it's determined that Aborigine population isn't capable of being hired for certain positions? Scientifically and merit-wise we would have evidence that would allow us to discriminate against a certain group. Would you allow that kind of thing to happen? 

Based on what I can surmise as a "all people are created equal" attitude that I've garnered from your posts, I feel like you would have serious issues with something like that. 



> And I did not assume that "that all countries are equally developed with the same kinds of culture as white countries", in fact in my previous post to you i CONCEDED that developing countries would not have the resources to catch killers like the 1st world.


You conceded that they don't have the resources to catch serial killers. Will you concede that they don't have the smarts to do so as well - and that it's all intertwined? 



> Now, do you have any thoughts on the links I provided with your GIANT, WELL TRAVELLED, INTELLECT? :grin2::grin2::grin2:


If they don't contain specific research about the countries I'm talking about (which are really the majority of Middle Eastern, African and some South Asian countries), then those links are somewhat irrelevant :shrug


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## yeahbaby! (Jan 27, 2014)

Reaper said:


> You conceded that they don't have the resources to catch serial killers. Will you concede that they don't have the smarts to do so as well - and that it's all intertwined?
> 
> If they don't contain specific research about the countries I'm talking about (which are really the majority of Middle Eastern, African and some South Asian countries), then those links are somewhat irrelevant :shrug


1. No I won't concede that based on your opinion alone.

2. You introduced the element of talking about countries outside the 1st world when the original point was more relevant to the situation in the US. Why I don't know. And the fact you didn't even take a look at my links but still decided to vehemently argue with me shows a certain amount of arrogance imo. PRETTY TYPICAL OF A RIGHT WINGER HAW HAW!!!!



Moving on:

Interesting news on the Terror links with this fuckwit.



> Looking for terror links
> The security company that hired Mateen said it conducted background checks in 2007 and again in 2013. G4S says the background check also included a psychological evaluation called the Minnesota Multiphasic Personality Inventory. The company said he worked security at a gated community.
> 
> Investigators are looking for links to other terror groups.
> ...


http://edition.cnn.com/2016/06/13/us/orlando-nightclub-shooting/index.html


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## asdf0501 (May 31, 2009)

Reaper said:


> Why? Why do liberals inherently assume that all countries are equally developed with the same kinds of culture as white countries. Unfortunately, other than life experience in multiple countries - something I've had to post several times in this thread I don't have resources to back up my claims because liberals like you will stand up and cry foul if someone actually tried to do any race-based research on things like intelligence levels of the overall population in _other _countries.


Well, first of all, developing is not equal as not every country has culturally the same understanding of developing. This is why Asian countries for example sucess at all levels, they don't think at the same levels as us westerns, and they don't care about more of those "objective" measures.

Is always important to remember than the idea of objective "developing" and universal superiority was what lead to colonialism and has been over in most mentalities after the two big wars

Also, race-based research on intelligence is highly discredited because 1) as a theory is highly doubtful by the same reasons i say before, we could seem more intelligence because we have crafted more intrincate levels of logic but that's not the only level of intelligence and 2) as a result of 1), it doesn't exist an objective measure of intelligence so is impossible to do that research as IQ, for example, can measure global intelligence (whatever is that...) but not his specifics applications.

This isn't even accounting for mutations.... for example if i take IQ as an objective measure of intelligence (which is lol but whatever...) is probed that, as in any mutation, people can easily gain IQ over time by enviromental reasons like class.




Reaper said:


> I can totally see people allowing that sort of research to happen at all let alone allow the results of that research be admissable in a discussion :lol


It had happened and has been refuted by at least 20 years or so...

http://psycnet.apa.org/journals/amp/54/1/5/
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0160289609001561



Reaper said:


> When I'm talking about "smart" I'm talking about intelligence where intelligence and knowledge are intrinsically linked and therefore even if they have the "intelligence" to be able to catch serial killers, they may not have the knowledge to compliment that intelligence and then compound that issue with fewer resources and millions of other problems that pull them in a million different ways and they don't catch serial killers.


Lone wolfs are always difficult to catch and this is not a matter of intelligence or knowledge. The fact that we just tend to catch serial killer after years of them attacking and most goes unnoticed says a lot about this. 



Reaper said:


> So yeah, overall people in most countries that are not white dominated don't have people that are smart enough to catch serial killers - hence why you have fewer serial killers in those countries .. not because they don't exist.


So, what happen with asians then....?


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## Reaper (Sep 4, 2013)

yeahbaby! said:


> 1. No I won't concede that based on your opinion alone.
> 
> 2. You introduced the element of talking about countries outside the 1st world when the original point was more relevant to the situation in the US. Why I don't know. And the fact you didn't even take a look at my links but still decided to vehemently argue with me shows a certain amount of arrogance imo. PRETTY TYPICAL OF A RIGHT WINGER HAW HAW!!!!


Yes, and on the points regarding the US I am in agreement. But you're ignoring the necessity of including other nations and their struggles with catching serial killers contributing to this impression amongst certain segments into thinking that whites are more likely to be serial killers. 

When you really break it apart, my point is the same as yours. The only thing I've added is that whites also tend to catch more serial killers than any other race based on my experience in other countries - and that is a perfectly valid observation. Maybe I can concede that part of the reason why I think so is debateable. However, there's a lot I can still say about their overall lack of smarts leading to them not developing their countries to not being able to have the resources etc etc and I could go on. 

Honestly speaking, at some point I run out of excuses when it comes to those countries because that's all it really boils down to. Excuses. Yes, it's a complex narrative when it comes to explaining why white dominated societies are so far ahead of non-white societies (minus the few Asian societies), but at some point we have to ask the hard questions about their inherent traits leading to certain inclinations towards adopting cultures that aren't conducive to development. 

The thing I've noticed about whites that I haven't seen in a lot of other races is their penchant for extremely detailed and tedious work. Not many other races as a whole value details and tediousness but coming out of the middle ages, westerners adopted a strong work ethic as a way of life. Most of the rest of the world still hasn't been able to do that and are only just starting to catch up. 



asdf0501 said:


> Well, first of all, developing is not equal as not every country has culturally the same understanding of developing. This is why Asian countries for example sucess at all levels, they don't think at the same levels as us westerns, and they don't care about more of those "objective" measures.
> 
> Is always important to remember than the idea of objective "developing" and universal superiority was what lead to colonialism and has been over in most mentalities after the two big wars


That was a part of it. But it wasn't all of it. The start of the second war was initially german protectionism of self-interests - not superiority. German superiority became a narrative necessary to continue the war, but it didn't start the war. 

Same thing with Colonialism. In retrospect it's easy to claim that some aspects of colonialism were based on racial superiority, but again, the start of colonialism wasn't about superiority. Ideas around racial superiority was a biproduct of sucessful colonization, not the other way around. Primarily the root of racial superiority lies at the heart of the industrial revolution. Thinkers and philosophers coined racial superiority as the cause of the industrial revolution in an attempt to explain but colonization itself didn't happen with the intent of extending that superiority over the rest of the world. Now I'm not saying that racial superiority was not at all a part and parcel of colonization, but it was not the most important aspect of it. 



> Also, race-based research on intelligence is highly discredited because 1) as a theory is highly doubtful by the same reasons i say before, we could seem more intelligence because we have crafted more intrincate levels of logic but that's not the only level of intelligence and 2) as a result of 1), it doesn't exist an objective measure of intelligence so is impossible to do that research as IQ, for example, can measure global intelligence (whatever is that...) but not his specifics applications.


We may not be able to make the genetic determination right now ... and may not have discovered it yet. But something that hasn't been discovered yet does not mean that it does not exist. I understand that this is very creationist kind of argument ... but when taken scientifically, it still holds some worth. The thing is that _initial _research using our _current _methods has discredited the idea of race-based differences in intelligence. However, at the same time we still have societies that have developed differently across the world so we cannot completely discredit any idea that race-based differences don't exist at all. 



> This isn't even accounting for mutations.... for example if i take IQ as an objective measure of intelligence (which is lol but whatever...) is probed that, as in any mutation, people can easily gain IQ over time by enviromental reasons like class.


And yet in many societies that hasn't happened even though at this point pretty much all societies have access to essentially what is a huge archive of human knowledge in order to advance themselves. 

Sure, we can postulate hundreds of reasons as to why that hasn't happened, but what I don't understand is why people are immediately averse to take a look at potential genetic factors. The research on genetics is far from complete and due to ethics considerations has tremendous amounts of limitations placed on it meaning that what we really know isn't conclusive by a long shot. 



> Lone wolfs are always difficult to catch and this is not a matter of intelligence or knowledge. The fact that we just tend to catch serial killer after years of them attacking and most goes unnoticed says a lot about this.


The fact that white people stick with it goes back to my idea that white people somehow developed something that allows them to engage in extremely detailed and tedious work .. something that in my personal experience I have observed in few other cultures. 



> So, what happen with asians then....?


This is a very interesting topic. WHen you look at some far eastern cultures, they show similar traits to those of western cultures. This to me indicates that social factors really aren't the entire determining factor. Other than North Korean which is a complete extreme when it comes to a horrendous social environment (I mean, if you put a bunch of ants in saw dust without food, they'll do worse than a bunch of ants in the ground with plenty of food in the short term regardless of genetic predisposition), most Asian cultures have managed to advance themselves further and have stayed neck and neck with western cultures. In fact, over the last few decades they have performed as a whole better than even white people given the white people environment. To me, that honestly indicates more of a genetic predisposition towards adopting a certain culture than a social one - especially considering that we haven't seen similar advancements in other ethnic minorities in the states ... But I can see why certain people would rather not see it that way. 

The idea that all humans are inherently equal in all things is just too pervasive to combat. Maybe, just maybe it isn't. I don't know. I'm not making any conclusive statements. But it's a thought that we haven't conclusively discarded either.


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## asdf0501 (May 31, 2009)

Reaper said:


> The thing I've noticed about whites that I haven't seen in a lot of other races is their penchant for extremely detailed and tedious work. Not many other races as a whole value details and tediousness but coming out of the middle ages, westerners adopted a strong work ethic as a way of life. Most of the rest of the world still hasn't been able to do that and are only just starting to catch up.


You should read this. It throw some light on it. 

http://www.d.umn.edu/cla/faculty/jhamlin/1095/The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism.pdf



Reaper said:


> Same thing with Colonialism. In retrospect it's easy to claim that some aspects of colonialism were based on racial superiority, but again, the start of colonialism wasn't about superiority. Ideas around racial superiority was a biproduct of sucessful colonization, not the other way around. Primarily the root of racial superiority lies at the heart of the industrial revolution. Thinkers and philosophers coined racial superiority as the cause of the industrial revolution in an attempt to explain but colonization itself didn't happen with the intent of extending that superiority over the rest of the world. Now I'm not saying that racial superiority was not at all a part and parcel of colonization, but it was not the most important aspect of it.


Yeah but the inherent product of this was the feeling of superiority and the idea that the western development it was obejctively superior, which don't hold up necessarily. Antropology and other social sciences were at fault in this as you said. This in part is why some ideas of racial superiority are feared. 

It leads to justificable discrimination. Which in retrospective i why we don't feel guilt for the shithole we created in Africa for example.

Now, even if i tackle your point, i could made a reasonable question and say what's first, the egg or the chicken. If evolutive traits are present in intelligence, is pertinent to question for example if the difference in IQ between black and whites is really a genetic trait since the begining or we created this gap as we have stopped African cognitive development as early as Roman conquest of Egypt. If this last point is the answer, then we are able to reduce that difference just as we were able to created it and we come back to point zero again...



Reaper said:


> We may not be able to make the genetic determination right now ... and may not have discovered it yet. But something that hasn't been discovered yet does not mean that it does not exist. I understand that this is very creationist kind of argument ... but when taken scientifically, it still holds some worth. The thing is that _initial _research using our _current _methods has discredited the idea of race-based differences in intelligence. However, at the same time we still have societies that have developed differently across the world so we cannot completely discredit any idea that race-based differences don't exist at all.



The argument is tricky because, as you admit, well it points to veles of "what if" that are pretty much valid for every argument. But if we take what we have, which is IQ, the research made by guys like Jensen has been highly controversial and reffuted left and right for as much as 60 years, the discussion on enviromental vs genetics has pointed toward the former for quite some time by now. Yeah is probable that there are some genetics tendency towards intelligence, but there are so many levels of intelligence that some can be easily compensated by different adventages on different levels across races.

To test your hypothesis you would not only have to find difference on intelligence across cultures but also isolate the effects of intelligence in development which is highly difficult as the differences in all those processes amount to more than intelligence and you could point to things like climate, geography, etc. 

Is also convinient to remember that there were civilizations with high levels of development all over the world and all of them were conquered by other white civilizations stoping those process. Even more, the only two civilization (Japanese and chinesse) with low levels of contact with whites until the last two centuries have levels of success similar or superior to us, which also account for a rebuttal of some kind in this




Reaper said:


> This is a very interesting topic. WHen you look at some far eastern cultures, they show similar traits to those of western cultures. This to me indicates that social factors really aren't the entire determining factor. Other than North Korean which is a complete extreme when it comes to a horrendous social environment, most Asian cultures have managed to advance themselves further and have stayed neck and neck with western cultures. In fact, over the last few decades they have performed as a whole better than even white people given the white people environment. To me, that honestly indicates more of a genetic predisposition towards a certain culture than a social one ... But I can see why certain people would rather not see it that way.


Well, true only in part.

First of all, most of those nations were highly isolated by sea or other reasons like the wall. Also they were geographically similar (at least in his own territory) to facilitate contact between states and levels of war that garantized, first, conflict between feuds and second the formation of some sort of national state at one point or another. Both adventages that, for example, south america didn't have.


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## bullshitter (Mar 23, 2016)

Welcome to the hideously racist xenophobic world of pro wrestling fans, it's makes you proud to be part of I.....


Fuck no, you ppl are a fucking embarrassment


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## themuel1 (Feb 19, 2004)

bullshitter said:


> Welcome to the hideously racist xenophobic world of pro wrestling fans, it's makes you proud to be part of I.....
> 
> 
> Fuck no, you ppl are a fucking embarrassment


"Welcome to the hideously racist xenophobic world" would have been more accurate. It's sad how many people use "history" as a reference and yet seem to know fuck all about history.

It feels like I've walked into a thread written in the 1950's (If message boards had existed back then). Intelligence differences between each race? GTFO. 

One more thing. The egg came before the Chicken. For one not to know or understand this means you do not understand evolution itself.


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## birthday_massacre (Jan 30, 2013)

*Re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



BruiserKC said:


> This has nothing to do with the banning of guns or not. If that was the case anyway, the ones who would be able to get guns are not the law-abiding ones, but the criminals. They don't follow any bans. Ironically, these folks target soft targets where they know that firearms are banned, such as this nightclub.


This shooter LEGALLY GOT THE GUN, he was on the terrorist watchlist. So the bad guy is ILLEGALLY getting guns in this case.

You really think someone who was on the terrorist watch list should be able to get a gun legally?

And its not true these people target areas were they know firearms are banned. They target areas they have some sort of connection to.. 

The whole gun free zone thing is a misdirect. The guy target the night club not because it was a gun free zone but because it was a gay club.


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## ErickRowan_Fan (Feb 8, 2014)

bullshitter said:


> Welcome to the hideously racist xenophobic world of pro wrestling fans, it's makes you proud to be part of I.....
> 
> 
> Fuck no, you ppl are a fucking embarrassment





themuel1 said:


> "Welcome to the hideously racist xenophobic world" would have been more accurate. It's sad how many people use "history" as a reference and yet seem to know fuck all about history.
> 
> It feels like I've walked into a thread written in the 1950's (If message boards had existed back then). Intelligence differences between each race? GTFO.
> 
> One more thing. The egg came before the Chicken. For one not to know or understand this means you do not understand evolution itself.


The arguments may be controversial, but if you think they are so over-whelmingly, outrageously wrong, then you are free to disprove them.

Of course, acting outraged and hurling insults is always easier than calmly picking apart an argument and proving your point of view with logic, facts and statistics.


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## TheGimmickKiller (Sep 21, 2015)

I just have nothing to say any more. If the Sandy Hook shooting didn't make us change, then nothing will. It's fucking heartbreaking that every other day there's another mass-shooting. Nobody should have access to military-grade weaponry unless they're in active duty. Period.

I have zero problems with normal people owning handguns for protection or guns for hunting, or whatever, but fuck. I can't stand hearing about another shooting day after day after day after day after day (and so on). It kills me inside to know so many people are dying because of shit like this and it seems nobody cares. Nobody with the power to stop it, anyway.


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## Reaper (Sep 4, 2013)

bullshitter said:


> Welcome to the hideously racist xenophobic world of pro wrestling fans, it's makes you proud to be part of I.....
> 
> 
> Fuck no, you ppl are a fucking embarrassment





themuel1 said:


> "Welcome to the hideously racist xenophobic world" would have been more accurate. It's sad how many people use "history" as a reference and yet seem to know fuck all about history.
> 
> It feels like I've walked into a thread written in the 1950's (If message boards had existed back then). Intelligence differences between each race? GTFO.
> 
> One more thing. The egg came before the Chicken. For one not to know or understand this means you do not understand evolution itself.


Don't be passive aggressive cowards heckling from the safety of your mom's basements ... at least try to be a little brave and get involved in the discussion. 



asdf0501 said:


> You should read this. It throw some light on it.
> 
> http://www.d.umn.edu/cla/faculty/jhamlin/1095/The%20Protestant%20Ethic%20and%20the%20Spirit%20of%20Capitalism.pdf


I read it 14 years ago for my soc degree. IIRC, I don't think there was any connection made to the protestant ethic being genetic. I'm not sure anymore. Why don't you remind me. 



> Yeah but the inherent product of this was the feeling of superiority and the idea that the western development it was obejctively superior, which don't hold up necessarily. Antropology and other social sciences were at fault in this as you said. This in part is why some ideas of racial superiority are feared.
> 
> It leads to justificable discrimination. Which in retrospective i why we don't feel guilt for the shithole we created in Africa for example.


The thing is though the western world has pretty much left Africa and other parts of the world alone for decades now. Even in South Africa the only first world economy that developed was South Africa which was ruled and controlled by whites till the 90's. Zimbabwe did fairly well as well until it was devastated in recent years with their black revolution. I know these connections are very spurious and there may be socialized factors have led to the decay of some countries and the advancement of others, but at the same time there have been colonized countries like Hong Kong, Malaysia, Indonesia, Thailand, India, China, Jordan etc amongst dozens others that all gained sovereignty at or around the same time and managed to do really well afterwards ... while we have African, Carribbean, some middle eastern and south asian countries (mainly Pakistan and Sri Lanka) that did not do so well. Now I know that in the case of Pakistan, the primary reason is Islamicization in the 70's-80's when it comes to our lack of development. With Sri Lanka it was several decades long civil war ... But unfortunately, we can't really isolate the correlation between the amount of success certain nations have had even the post colonial era and the dominant races of those countries. 



> Now, even if i tackle your point, i could made a reasonable question and say what's first, the egg or the chicken. If evolutive traits are present in intelligence, is pertinent to question for example if the difference in IQ between black and whites is really a genetic trait since the begining or we created this gap as we have stopped African cognitive development as early as Roman conquest of Egypt. If this last point is the answer, then we are able to reduce that difference just as we were able to created it and we come back to point zero again...


I think it's fairly safe and reasonable to say that it's irrelevant whether it's the chicken or the egg. I don't see why it would actually be relevant so you might need to elaborate on this point for me a little more. 



> The argument is tricky because, as you admit, well it points to veles of "what if" that are pretty much valid for every argument. But if we take what we have, which is IQ, the research made by guys like Jensen has been highly controversial and reffuted left and right for as much as 60 years, the discussion on enviromental vs genetics has pointed toward the former for quite some time by now. Yeah is probable that there are some genetics tendency towards intelligence, but there are so many levels of intelligence that some can be easily compensated by different adventages on different levels across races.
> 
> To test your hypothesis you would not only have to find difference on intelligence across cultures but also isolate the effects of intelligence in development which is highly difficult as the differences in all those processes amount to more than intelligence and you could point to things like climate, geography, etc.


That's fair enough. But it doesn't negate the potential importance of genetic factors or what we may find. 



> Is also convinient to remember that there were civilizations with high levels of development all over the world and all of them were conquered by other white civilizations stoping those process. Even more, the only two civilization (Japanese and chinesse) with low levels of contact with whites until the last two centuries have levels of success similar or superior to us, which also account for a rebuttal of some kind in this


Well, I don't think it does. As I already pointed out, in this case instead of looking at what stopped the process, we should examine what happened after the colonial interruption - and we still see a racial divide in post colonial development .. I'm not saying that it's just genetic at all btw. Of course, knowing what I know of genetics (and I'm a layman), it's a complex interaction between the environment genetics that influence and determine behaviour. What I'm interested in is examining the genetic component when it comes to socialization ... And that's where the roadblocks are applied. As for this process of interruption that is being blamed for the lack of development of certain countries, I think we have the perfect counter in what Europe did to itself in the 30's-40's and yet they weren't only able to rebuild but become world powers yet again after destroying much of their infrastructure --- so I don't think this idea that these poor colonial countries were colonized contributed to their current destitution at all. 



> First of all, most of those nations were highly isolated by sea or other reasons like the wall. Also they were geographically similar (at least in his own territory) to facilitate contact between states and levels of war that garantized, first, conflict between feuds and second the formation of some sort of national state at one point or another. Both adventages that, for example, south america didn't have.


What about the fact that South Africa, Australia and New Zealand (white dominated) and Japan, South Korea and China all developed into first world nations irreglardless of geographical isolation meanwhile other countries that were not white or asian dominated did not? Australia was worse than a typical british colony. It was supposed to be a penal colony - probably the worst kept british colony compared to all others that still had some wealth .. and yet, here we are. 

And then we see the same thing in immigration and immigrant patterns in the western world as well. The same races tend to do better than other races when they immigrate to other countries as well. 

Even post colonization to me that is a glaring enough occurrence and needs to be examined in terms of genetics at some point.


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## deepelemblues (Sep 26, 2011)

> The fact that white people stick with it goes back to my idea that white people somehow developed something that allows them to engage in extremely detailed and tedious work .. something that in my personal experience I have observed in few other cultures.


the development of complex banking systems is more the cause of western capitalism and industrialism that gave the west its material and intellectual edge than anything else

1200 AD europe was behind the middle east and china

1700 AD the situation was reversed

one thing that changed in those 500 years was europe dropped its aversion to "usury" that the middle east did not. it wasn't until the 19th century that serious arguments were made for "interest" being okay under the rules of islam if the lending was for commercial investment. while china's rulers consciously made the decision to reject the kind of changes happening in europe because they thought those changes were a threat to chinese culture. 

europe became more efficient at allocating capital to places that gave a big return on investment as far as education and industrialization. the middle east and china largely did not. the profit motive ran wild in europe and was more available to all socioeconomic classes than it was elsewhere. without the capitalist impulse spreading through european society from top to bottom it's unlikely that it would have overtaken the wealth and power of the arabs, china, india etc. which just a few centuries earlier had far outstripped that of europe.


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## DoolieNoted (Dec 5, 2015)

Very sad events, and a shame that certain personalities and groups seem to want to hi-jack the tragic death of these people to further their own agendas.


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## themuel1 (Feb 19, 2004)

ErickRowan_Fan said:


> The arguments may be controversial, but if you think they are so over-whelmingly, outrageously wrong, then you are free to disprove them.
> 
> Of course, acting outraged and hurling insults is always easier than calmly picking apart an argument and proving your point of view with logic, facts and statistics.


The proof is that all studies so far have shown that there are no differences. You're suggesting there will be differences and we just haven't got the means to discover the differences you believe exist.

How exactly do I disprove a theory based on nothing but prejudice and a notion that we just haven't got the ability to discover differences in intelligence between races yet? 

Where's your proof? How do you define intelligence?


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## themuel1 (Feb 19, 2004)

Reaper said:


> Don't be passive aggressive cowards heckling from the safety of your mom's basements ... at least try to be a little brave and get involved in the discussion.


Kudos on the original insult. 

Can I just point out that as far as intelligence and development go with white people (the people you seem to claim are the most superior), plenty of them still believe in a God in the 21st Century and a fair amount of them don't believe in evolution....

As for differences in the intelligence between races....Different areas of the world have been the more "advanced throughout history, be it Ancient Egypt, China, the Middle East and the Western World.

Which races are you claiming are the less intelligent ones?


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## ErickRowan_Fan (Feb 8, 2014)

themuel1 said:


> *The proof is that all studies so far have shown that there are no differences.* You're suggesting there will be differences and we just haven't got the means to discover the differences you believe exist.
> 
> How exactly do I disprove a theory based on nothing but prejudice and a notion that we just haven't got the ability to discover differences in intelligence between races yet?
> 
> Where's your proof? How do you define intelligence?


They do? I'm pretty they've shown the opposite. The only thing that is in question is whether the difference in IQ has to do with genetics or with flawed testing and cultural/environmental factors. The test results themselves are pretty clear, Asians score highest.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_intelligence


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## deepelemblues (Sep 26, 2011)

themuel1 said:


> Kudos on the original insult.
> 
> Can I just point out that as far as intelligence and development go with white people (the people you seem to claim are the most superior), plenty of them still believe in a God in the 21st Century and a fair amount of them don't believe in evolution....
> 
> ...


There is no correlation or causation between religious faith and intelligence or lack thereof.

One common thread throughout all that history is that every one of those civilizations was deeply religious. The West still has way more people who believe in a religion than people who don't. So no you can't point out tired old atheist clichés that have zero connection to reality.


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## ErickRowan_Fan (Feb 8, 2014)

deepelemblues said:


> There is no correlation or causation between religious faith and intelligence or lack thereof.
> 
> One common thread throughout all that history is that every one of those civilizations was deeply religious. The West still has way more people who believe in a religion than people who don't. So no you can't point out tired old atheist clichés that have zero connection to reality.


Some of the smartest human beings in history have been religious. It doesn't mean anything, religious beliefs fill the blanks and answer questions as to _why_ the world exists, where science cannot. Currently, it can only speculate as to how and when it came about. It's up to the people themselves to decipher the meaning of it all.


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## birthday_massacre (Jan 30, 2013)

ErickRowan_Fan said:


> Some of the smartest human beings in history have been religious. It doesn't mean anything, *religious beliefs fill the blanks and answer questions as to why the world exists, where science cannot.* Currently, it can only speculate as to how and when it came about. It's up to the people themselves to decipher the meaning of it all.



This has to be one of the most untrue things I have ever read.

Religious beliefs dont fill in the blanks as to why the world exists, they make them up and claim GOD DID IT. That is not an answer especially since they have no evidence that god even exists let alone god is the reason for the universe existing.

Sciences uses facts and evidence to back up their views unlike religion Science does explain things when they can back them up, they dont just go oh GOD DID IT that is the answers.


God is not an answer to anything when you can't even prove gods existence.

Nice try.


Religion does make people stupid especially when religion claims the earth is only 6-10,000 years old when science has proven its billions of year old. Religion also teaches the that creationism is true and rejects evolution when evolution is a fact

So yes religion does make people dumber if you are trying to prove science with religion and just say GOD and disregard all the evidence about evolution and how old the earth is.


As for race vs intelligence , race has nothing to do with it, its all about the methods you use to learn and how much work you put in. If you took a white, black, hispanic and asian student and all taught them in the same way, they would al be equal.

If americans had schools like Asia, americans would have just as high scores as Asians.


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## njcam (Mar 30, 2014)




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## Dolorian (Oct 5, 2015)

birthday_massacre said:


> Religion does make people stupid especially when religion claims the earth is only 6-10,000 years old when science has proven its billions of year old. Religion also teaches the that creationism is true and rejects evolution when evolution is a fact


You are lumping together all religion with young earth creationists here. That's really not an accurate or even fair representation of theists as not all hold to the religion vs science dichotomy you are referring to. A lot of them have no issues with current scientific findings such as the universe being billions of years old or evolution being true. Not all of them are biblical literalists that think the book of Genesis was meant to be read as a scientific treatise but rather take a more nuanced view of it and the relationship between science and religion.


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## deepelemblues (Sep 26, 2011)

Who knew semi-automatic rifles were marketed towards and sold to children, with the purpose being that children would physically possess them?

The stupidity of gun control groups boggles the mind. Their political campaigns are so incredibly stupid. You get the feeling that the things they say, the commercials they run, the posters they create, are more intended to stroke the egos of their membership than to persuade people to back gun control. Kinder chocolate eggs are banned because they're dangerous to children but not "assault weapons" WTF? said no one attempting to make a serious argument ever. 

Also, religious beliefs can be but are certainly not limited to the last two things they have been said to be in this thread. 

The Book of Genesis as allegory has always been a popular view in both Judaism and Christianity, among theologians anyway.


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## birthday_massacre (Jan 30, 2013)

Dolorian said:


> You are lumping together all religion with young earth creationists here. That's really not an accurate or even fair representation of theists as not all hold to the religion vs science dichotomy you are referring to. A lot of them have no issues with current scientific findings such as the universe being billions of years old or evolution being true. Not all of them are biblical literalists that think the book of Genesis was meant to be read as a scientific treatise but rather take a more nuanced view of it and the relationship between science and religion.


That is true and I was talk about those people but all religions with a god use the god of the gaps argument and there is zero evidence that god exits. Also even those people that believe in god and evolution and that the earth is billion of years old still believe god was the cause of all of it, which like I said there is zero evidence of. So that makes people dumber since they are not using the scientific method and when they dont have an answer for something instead of trying to use science to find the answer they just say GOD

There is a creation museum in Kentucky, having kids go to that and telling them the things in that creation museum is fact is making those kids dumber.


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## deepelemblues (Sep 26, 2011)

The scientific method is the one true path to smartness :heston

Most scientists would disagree 



> they just say GOD


why are religious books and theological treatises so damn long then


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## birthday_massacre (Jan 30, 2013)

deepelemblues said:


> Who knew semi-automatic rifles were marketed towards and sold to children, with the purpose being that children would physically possess them?
> 
> The stupidity of gun control groups boggles the mind. Their political campaigns are so incredibly stupid. You get the feeling that the things they say, the commercials they run, the posters they create, are more intended to stroke the egos of their membership than to persuade people to back gun control. Kinder chocolate eggs are banned because they're dangerous to children but not "assault weapons" WTF? said no one attempting to make a serious argument ever.
> 
> ...


Oh you mean like how Iowa passed a law where toddlers can possess and shoot handguns?

Or how about this gem






or this one







or maybe this one


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## deepelemblues (Sep 26, 2011)

> Oh you mean like how Iowa passed a law where toddlers can possess and shoot handguns?


The state of Iowa manufactures and sells guns to the general public?

I'm pretty sure they don't.

That ad was talking about "assault weapons," not handguns.

How about back when kids would take their dad's rifle out into the woods all the time or their dad bought them a .22 because he didn't want their grubby little paws on his good rifle. I'm amazed anyone survived to breed subsequent generations.



> Or how about this gem
> 
> or this one
> 
> or maybe this one


i'm not sure how three videos of children firing guns with no horrible accident happening is supposed to make me thinks guns are bad because the children

in the third video the kid is clearly familiar with firearms, his father tells him first thing to check the safety, he checks the weapon after firing the first shot, he has a good stance and grip, that is a video of a kid who knows how to handle guns in a safe fashion. 

in fact in all three videos each child has obviously been taught at least the rudiments of how to handle firearms safely.


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## birthday_massacre (Jan 30, 2013)

deepelemblues said:


> The state of Iowa manufactures and sells guns to the general public?
> 
> I'm pretty sure they don't.
> 
> ...


No child should be handling a assault weapon, its not safe and its stupid. Those kids should be taken away from their parents. 
The 2nd kids talks about him being ready for the KKK, sounds like they want to shoot some black people. Pretty great eh?

10,000 kids are injured or killed by guns every year (3,000 die and 7,000 injuries) . But of course people like you dont think that is a problem.


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## 2 Ton 21 (Dec 28, 2011)

Motherfucker! It's San Bernadino all over again. Who the fuck let them in there? Had to have contaminated the scene. There is no way law enforcement wouldn't have taken his gun license card if they were done with the scene.


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## ErickRowan_Fan (Feb 8, 2014)

birthday_massacre said:


> This has to be one of the most untrue things I have ever read.
> 
> Religious beliefs dont fill in the blanks as to why the world exists, they make them up and claim GOD DID IT. That is not an answer especially since they have no evidence that god even exists let alone god is the reason for the universe existing.
> 
> ...


It's worthless to even try to argue this, but anyway, the point was that science _does_ not and _will _not try to answer why this world exists. It is not what science is for, it is not the purpose of science. Scientists make a clear distinction, to avoid becoming philosophers. That is what religion, spiritualism and philosophy are for, to give meaning to our existence, to satisfy the part of human psyche which yearns for something more than just the mere "being".

If you think that all religion or spirituality is just about "God did it" then you've missed out on a lot in your life. Go find out what the likes of Nikola Tesla or Albert Einstein though about "God" and religion, and see if you will find their ideas of the universe as easy to debunk as some nutjob's who recites a two thousand year old book, word by word, as his sole source of spirituality.




> Religion does make people stupid especially when religion claims the earth is only 6-10,000 years old when science has proven its billions of year old. Religion also teaches the that creationism is true and rejects evolution when evolution is a fact
> 
> So yes religion does make people dumber if you are trying to prove science with religion and just say GOD and disregard all the evidence about evolution and how old the earth is.


Organized, restrictive religion can make people stupid, for sure. It is intended to be an easy cop-out for people who, quite frankly, do not have the intellect to form any kind of a larger idea about how the world came to be, yet still have the curiosity to ask "why". Christianity and Islam satisfies this curiosity and allows these people to focus on other matters, such as working a job and raising a family.

But a person who constantly looks for the meanings behind his life and the universe, is by no means stupid. I would say that it is an extremely important aspect of life. "God", to many people, is simply the representation of all the universal laws and ethics which form our universe, instead of some kind of a creator or corporeal being.



> As for race vs intelligence , race has nothing to do with it, its all about the methods you use to learn and how much work you put in. If you took a white, black, hispanic and asian student and all taught them in the same way, they would al be equal.
> 
> If americans had schools like Asia, americans would have just as high scores as Asians.


Possibly, but we have not been able to prove it decisively, therefore it ought to be a valid source of discussion. People want to know why Europe is successful or China is successful, but Africa is not, and race is inevitably going to be part of the discussion, whether we like it or not. We just need to learn to live with that, instead of throwing a fit whenever somebody mentions race as a possible cause, because it would be like ignoring the pink elephant in the room. It doesn't mean that race or genetics are the cause, but we shouldn't just automatically disqualify the argument either just because it sounds a little mean and offensive in today's environment.


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## deepelemblues (Sep 26, 2011)

> The 2nd kids talks about him being ready for the KKK, sounds like they want to shoot some black people. Pretty great eh?


it sounded like a joke but it also made them sound stupid, saying stupid jokes is not a sufficient crime to take away a constitutional right



> 10,000 kids are injured or killed by guns every year (3,000 die and 7,000 injuries) . But of course people like you dont think that is a problem.


the difference in death rate in those under 18 between the united states and a country like france is quite small. guns do not make up the entirety of the difference by any means. of course it's a problem but it's one that can be minimized without denying a constitutional right.



> No child should be handling a assault weapon, its not safe and its stupid. Those kids should be taken away from their parents.


kids do it hundreds if not thousands of times every day in this country without harming anyone, just like in those three videos.

so yeah it seems pretty safe.


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## birthday_massacre (Jan 30, 2013)

ErickRowan_Fan said:


> It's worthless to even try to argue this, but anyway, the point was that science _does_ not and _will _not try to answer why this world exists. It is not what science is for, it is not the purpose of science. Scientists make a clear distinction, to avoid becoming philosophers. That is what religion, spiritualism and philosophy are for, to give meaning to our existence, to satisfy the part of human psyche which yearns for something more than just the mere "being".
> 
> If you think that all religion or spirituality is just about "God did it" then you've missed out on a lot in your life. Go find out what the likes of Nikola Tesla or Albert Einstein though about "God" and religion, and see if you will find their ideas of the universe as easy to debunk as some nutjob's who recites a two thousand year old book, word by word, as his sole source of spirituality.
> 
> ...


 When I say science will try to answer why the universe exits its the same thing has how.

Why does the universe exist, answer because of the big bang. If you are trying to make it oh why does the universe exist because God made it because...... that is not science. My point is religion does't try to prove anything scientifically. 

I reject the bible because its full of bullshit and nothing in it is real, its all made up stories and its laughable how some people take it as science like when it comes to creationism or god being real. There is not one shred of evidence for any of that.

As for as spirituality, spirituality and god/religion are two different things, not even sure where you are going with all of this.

We are talking about how religion can make you stupid and I pointed out it does when you use it to teach kids that the earth is 6-10,000 years old or that god made everything and evolution is false when there is no evidence that god or the earth is 6-10,000 years old. The facts show that the earth is billions of years old and evolution is indeed a fact.

You are making a no sequitur jumping to spirituality when that is not what we were talking about. When religion cannot prove something they say god did it, which is not scientific at all and that is what makes make dumb.


Humans feel the need to put meaning behind everything. There is no meaning why the universe was created. If there was some god that created the universe then why is 99.9% of the universe that we know of, unable to support life?

You can look for meaning all you want and no it doesn't make you stupid but what makes you stupid is when you dont know something and just say GOD or when there is evidence of something like the earth being billions of years old which is a fact, yet you say well no the bible say its only 10,000 years old so I am going to go with that, that makes you stupid.

Just like someone that says no 2+2 isnt 4 , this holy book says its 5.

Yes we have been able to prove evolution decisively what are you talking about. That is like saying well science hasn't been able to prove gravity decisively yet.


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## birthday_massacre (Jan 30, 2013)

deepelemblues said:


> it sounded like a joke but it also made them sound stupid, saying stupid jokes is not a sufficient crime to take away a constitutional right
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It wasn't a joke, they live in the south, that kind of stuff is huge down there. 

Guns in the US are a much bigger problem than pretty much every other country in the world. 

*Americans are 10 times more likely to be killed by guns than people in other developed countries, a new study finds.

Compared to 22 other high-income nations, the United States' gun-related murder rate is 25 times higher. And, even though the United States' suicide rate is similar to other countries, the nation's gun-related suicide rate is eight times higher than other high-income countries, researchers said.

*


Only people like you think 3,000 and 7,000 kids being injured by guns a year is safe.


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## RetepAdam. (May 13, 2007)

birthday_massacre said:


> When I say science will try to answer why the universe exits its the same thing has how.
> 
> Why does the universe exist, answer because of the big bang. If you are trying to make it oh why does the universe exist because God made it because...... that is not science. My point is religion does't try to prove anything scientifically.


I would flip that on its head.

The Big Bang is _how_ the universe exists. No one really knows the _why_. There probably isn't a _why_ since the universe is exceedingly indifferent. But "Why is there something instead of nothing?" is probably a question we'll never be able to answer. It's up to us what we do with the absence of such an answer.


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## birthday_massacre (Jan 30, 2013)

RetepAdam. said:


> I would flip that on its head.
> 
> The Big Bang is _how_ the universe exists. No one really knows the _why_. There probably isn't a _why_ since the universe is exceedingly indifferent. But "Why is there something instead of nothing?" is probably a question we'll never be able to answer. It's up to us what we do with the absence of such an answer.


I agree that is why i dont like getting caught up on a single word, how is the better term to use for sure.

As for why something exits instead of nothing is a perfectly legit question to answer but the problem comes when like you said it may never be answered but some people so well we dont know so a magical god did it.

But once someone uses that argument, you have to ask well who or what created that god and why. Then you get the whole infinite regress problem.

The funny thing about that is, they use the argument everything needs a creator, except of course when it comes to their god that they claim created everything. But that is a huge flaw since that would mean someone or something had to create their god as well but they always try to make up excuses and claim well god has always been which is cheat because if they are going to use that argument you can say well the universe always existed just in some form or another, which is more likely than some magical sky god doing it.

There also doesnt have to be a reason why the universe exits.


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## skypod (Nov 13, 2014)

So, putting aside religion and gun rights for a second here, the guys ex went on Brazilian TV and said she thought he was a repressed gay guy all along, and that apparently hes been clubbing in gay clubs for 3 years. And also that she was told not to mention this to the media by the FBI.

Also seeing some things about there being more than one shooter, but not sure whether thats your typical conspiracy shit at this point.


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## birthday_massacre (Jan 30, 2013)

skypod said:


> So, putting aside religion and gun rights for a second here, the guys ex went on Brazilian TV and said she thought he was a repressed gay guy all along, and that apparently hes been clubbing in gay clubs for 3 years. And also that she was told not to mention this to the media by the FBI.
> 
> Also seeing some things about there being more than one shooter, but not sure whether thats your typical conspiracy shit at this point.


She also said that he used to beat her, not to mention at this work co workers reported in the past he said he was going to kill people and also used a number of slurs and was reported to managers and they did nothing.


The reason why they dont want to mention this to the media by the FBI if true is because this was a hate crime against gays and had nothing to do with terrorism, terrorism is being used as a scapegoat. 
He had a lot of self loathing because he was gay, and it build up that had had to go kill a number of gay people in a gay club.


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## ErickRowan_Fan (Feb 8, 2014)

birthday_massacre said:


> When I say science will try to answer why the universe exits its the same thing has how.
> 
> Why does the universe exist, answer because of the big bang. If you are trying to make it oh why does the universe exist because God made it because...... that is not science. My point is religion does't try to prove anything scientifically.


It doesn't answer "why". 

Big Bang happening, doesn't explain _why_ it happened. Science only says that this is the current leading theory on how Universe came about. Perhaps there is no why, but for people, it's generally pretty damn important. Humans generally find it very hard to believe that things just happen on their own. Science, however, avoids taking any stances in answering those questions, because again, it goes to the realm of philosophy.



> I reject the bible because its full of bullshit and nothing in it is real, its all made up stories and its laughable how some people take it as science like when it comes to creationism or god being real. There is not one shred of evidence for any of that.


Yeah well, that is generally the problem with people who turn to atheism. They've been brain-washed to believe that the Bible or Qu'ran is all there is to it. 

They do not understand that their own indoctrination has caused them to rebel against anything that has to do with gods or religion, because of how they have been lied to since their birth. Therefore they have replaced their old religions, with a new religion, science. But science is no replacement for religion. It doesn't claim to be. If you begin to worship science, in the manner that people worship religion, you're led astray from the path of science. The only certainty in the scientific world view is _uncertainty_, nothing should be dealt with as an undisputable, absolute fact and everything is subject to change at a moment's notice.



> We are talking about how religion can make you stupid and I pointed out it does when you use it to teach kids that the earth is 6-10,000 years old or that god made everything and evolution is false when there is no evidence that god or the earth is 6-10,000 years old. The facts show that the earth is billions of years old and evolution is indeed a fact.


You're treating science as almost a religion yourself. In science, the "facts" are always subject to change, unlike in organized religions. Our leading theories, based on empirical evidence, show that the earth is likely billions of years old and that evolution is the most rational explanation we can come up with for current development so far. However, in the scientific world view, these theories are _always_ subject to further debate. In organized religions, they are not, because they rely on tradition and easy answers for simple people.



> You are making a no sequitur jumping to spirituality when that is not what we were talking about. When religion cannot prove something they say god did it, which is not scientific at all and that is what makes make dumb.


When some religious people cannot prove something they say God did it. It does not mean that the religions themselves say it. If you study some sects of even Christianity or Islam, which retain ancient knowledge and have stayed away from simplified "state religion" like Sufism in Islam for example, you'll find out that their explanations for the world are not half as simple as the mainstream versions in those religions.



> Humans feel the need to put meaning behind everything. There is no meaning why the universe was created. If there was some god that created the universe then why is 99.9% of the universe that we know of, unable to support life?


And how have you come to the conclusion that there was no meaning? Has this been proven? I don't think science has ever proven, or even attempted to prove, that there is no meaning behind the universe. That's a belief of your own, no more scientific than any religious person's beliefs.



> You can look for meaning all you want and no it doesn't make you stupid but what makes you stupid is when you dont know something and just say GOD or when there is evidence of something like the earth being billions of years old which is a fact, yet you say well no the bible say its only 10,000 years old so I am going to go with that, that makes you stupid.


We can agree to that, but I think your experience with religious people differs from mine. Not all of them are fools, they just see the world different from you and I.

By the way, I'm not a religious person at all, but I do seek to understand what's behind other people's beliefs, other than stupidity (which is often a prime motivator I admit).



> Yes we have been able to prove evolution decisively what are you talking about. That is like saying well science hasn't been able to prove gravity decisively yet.


If you believe in evolution, then does it not make sense that humans who develop in countries with a higher level of education and high level of infrastructure, eventually evolve to become more intelligent than people who develop in countries with no education and low level of infrastructure?

You can't just ignore aspects of the evolution theory to fit whatever suits your purposes in an argument. That's what religious people do.

The issues of race, genetics and inheritance are something we have to tackle if we claim to believe in the evolution theory, as uncomfortable as they may be. It would be far more comfortable to believe that God created us all equal, but that's not really how it went down, if our biologists are to be believed.


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## deepelemblues (Sep 26, 2011)

> The funny thing about that is, they use the argument everything needs a creator, except of course when it comes to their god that they claim created everything. But that is a huge flaw since that would mean someone or something had to create their god as well but they always try to make up excuses and claim well god has always been which is cheat because if they are going to use that argument you can say well the universe always existed just in some form or another, which is more likely than some magical sky god doing it.


This is so simplistic and misrepresentative that well it's typical BM. 

The concept of God in the three Abrahamic faiths is a transcendent being that is not bound by any rules of nature or logic that man can discover / devise. God has no creator because there was nothing before God. Literally nothing. Saying "before God" doesn't even make sense under the terms of the concept because all there is is God. There is no before God or after God. God is. 

Under the Abrahamic concept of God a "magical sky god" is nothing compared to God btw.

Now shit on that as a cheat and stupid because you don't understand what it means. It's not necessarily true, but it's not a collection of stupidities and cheats and excuses no matter how many times you say it is. It is a philosophy, a system of thought, that has been argued over and refined for several thousand years by men and women far more intelligent than any of us here. They weren't sitting around trying to think up stupid excuses and cheats. They were sincerely applying their intelligence and reason, doing so in good faith. Most of them were anyway.


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## Gandhi (Sep 15, 2012)




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## birthday_massacre (Jan 30, 2013)

deepelemblues said:


> This is so simplistic and misrepresentative that well it's typical BM.
> 
> The concept of God in the three Abrahamic faiths is a transcendent being that is not bound by any rules of nature or logic that man can discover / devise. God has no creator because there was nothing before God. Literally nothing. Saying "before God" doesn't even make sense under the terms of the concept because all there is is God. There is no before God or after God. God is.
> 
> ...


You are once again proving my point, which you always do so well.

You proved exactly what I said people like you will do. OH God is special so blah blah blah. You are falling into the special pleading fallacy.

Sorry but you cannot claim that everything needs to have a creator then turn around and claim well god is special and does not need a creator. 

Saying there is a god is what doesnt make sense. You can ask what created god because like people like you say, all things need a creator, god also needs a creator if you are going to make that claim. He gets no special exception. 

You can claim anything is not bound by nature. I could say well the flying spaghetti monster is what created the universe and is special.
And I dont have to prove it exits, it just does.

You can't prove god exits and no you can't say oh god is transcendent and all that BS.

It is a cheat to claim god is special and magical and doesnt have to follow the rule and laws of nature and physics.


But again thanks for proving my point how excuses are always made up for god when they can't prove god exits.


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## gamegenie (Aug 14, 2011)

RetepAdam. said:


> I would flip that on its head.
> 
> The Big Bang is _how_ the universe exists. No one really knows the _why_. There probably isn't a _why_ since the universe is exceedingly indifferent. But "Why is there something instead of nothing?" is probably a question we'll never be able to answer. It's up to us what we do with the absence of such an answer.


Only non-believers don't know why. 

The Big Bang theory, only exists as a program that long since jumped the shark on the CBS broadcast network. 

In the beginning God created the heavens and earth.


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## BruiserKC (Mar 14, 2010)

*Re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



birthday_massacre said:


> This shooter LEGALLY GOT THE GUN, he was on the terrorist watchlist. So the bad guy is ILLEGALLY getting guns in this case.
> 
> You really think someone who was on the terrorist watch list should be able to get a gun legally?
> 
> ...


The FBI dropped the ball, no question. They should have kept tabs on the man and didn't. That's on the feds, I don't want folks that are on these lists getting arms. 

As for the gun free zone issue, it is probably also taken into consideration the fact that guns are banned from these nightclubs. If it is anything like night clubs here and elsewhere, they make it pretty obvious when you are about to walk in the door about what the dress code is, no firearms, etc. At the strip club I bounced at years ago, the sign at the front door spelled it all out. Plus, when checking people in after checking ID, I would ask them if they had a weapon as it was a weapon-free environment.


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## ST1TCH (Aug 6, 2014)

There probably shouldn't be any faith trashing in this thread, kinda classless IMO.


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## birthday_massacre (Jan 30, 2013)

*Re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



BruiserKC said:


> The FBI dropped the ball, no question. They should have kept tabs on the man and didn't. That's on the feds, I don't want folks that are on these lists getting arms.
> 
> As for the gun free zone issue, it is probably also taken into consideration the fact that guns are banned from these nightclubs. If it is anything like night clubs here and elsewhere, they make it pretty obvious when you are about to walk in the door about what the dress code is, no firearms, etc. At the strip club I bounced at years ago, the sign at the front door spelled it all out. Plus, when checking people in after checking ID, I would ask them if they had a weapon as it was a weapon-free environment.


There were THREE people with guns in the night club and it didnt stop the shooter from killing 49 people and injuring over 50 more.

Its not taken into considering that the locations they target are gun free zones, like I said they always have a connection to it. That is why when ever you see a school shooting for example, its always the school they went to, or a work shooting, its the work they used to work at or work at. People like this are usually mentally ill and don't think about oh its a gun free zone.

Also the whole thing about oh if guns were allowed would make it better, thats simply not true, it would make it 100 times worse because if you tons of people with guns they would all be shooting at each other because they would hear gun shows then pull out their gun to go look for the person, then the would be be shooting each other, then the cops would come and would be shooting innocent people with guns that were trying to stop it because they saw someone else with a gun and the cops wouldn't know there are multiple shooters.


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## KingCosmos (Aug 18, 2013)

The amount of ignorance towards science in this thread makes my head hurt.


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## skypod (Nov 13, 2014)

A lot of nightclubs have a pat down policy in cities in the UK, to try and spot knives, elsewhere the bouncers would give you a look up and down. Can't even imagine having to tell a sane person not to take their gun into the nightclub.

Also I love how whenever its brought up that this guy shouldn't have been able to get a gun and the system is broken, the response has been "well he would have found a way to get it anyway, criminals break the law".

OK then let's just not bother restricting any human being ever. Why do we bother with laws and regulations. And it's a strange conflict because surely conservative people should be mad a Muslim got a gun in the first place anyway? But there's something inside them saying "well technically everyone should have one".


Let's stop Muslims entering into the country because of terroism fears but we can't restrict gun owners because that would be tarring them with the same brush and that's wrong eh?


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## deepelemblues (Sep 26, 2011)

> You are once again proving my point, which you always do so well.


The next time you say this and it is more than assertion will be the first.



> You proved exactly what I said people like you will do. OH God is special so blah blah blah. You are falling into the special pleading fallacy.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_pleading

Please familiarize yourself with what the special pleading fallacy is before accusing people of falling into it.

What constitutes "without adequate justification" is up to debate, not up to your assertions.



> Saying there is a god is what doesnt make sense. You can ask what created god because like people like you say, all things need a creator, god also needs a creator if you are going to make that claim. He gets no special exception.


God is all things under the concept. He gets no special exception because it is impossible for everything to be a special exception.

The statement "God is" is a statement you don't understand, true. That doesn't mean it doesn't make sense.



> You can claim anything is not bound by nature. I could say well the flying spaghetti monster is what created the universe and is special.
> And I dont have to prove it exits, it just does.


God is the flying spaghetti monster as well.

God is denial of the flying spaghetti monster as well.

God is everything, everywhere, everything that conceptually is nowhere, everything that has physically existed, everything that will physically exist, every think that exists only as thoughts, ever-y-thing. That is what "God is" means. 



> You can't prove god exits


Good thing I don't have to then, do I?



> and no you can't say oh god is transcendent and all that BS.


I said it. If I can't say it, how did I say it?

Assertion = disproved. 

And if you mean I can't say that in the sense that I can't say that and be correct, which is what you mean, you're still wrong, and God still is. 



> It is a cheat to claim god is special and magical and doesnt have to follow the rule and laws of nature and physics.


God is in that "cheat." God is in that "cheat" not being a cheat. It's all God. God is.



> But again thanks for proving my point how excuses are always made up for god when they can't prove god exits.


Metaphysics is a cheat. Well that's God too so it still doesn't matter. It not mattering is God as well. 

God is. When you understand what that means, you'll understand why you might not be wrong, but you'll also understand why it being a certainty that you are right is wrong as well. You can yell about cheats and excuses and BS and about about how your point is proved, but God is. So all that of that is still God.

Sucks, huh?



> There were THREE people with guns in the night club and it didnt stop the shooter from killing 49 people and injuring over 50 more.


Who were these three people? Where are you getting this information? Not from witnesses or police or the FBI, that's for sure.



> Also the whole thing about oh if guns were allowed would make it better, thats simply not true, it would make it 100 times worse because if you tons of people with guns they would all be shooting at each other because they would hear gun shows then pull out their gun to go look for the person, then the would be be shooting each other, then the cops would come and would be shooting innocent people with guns that were trying to stop it because they saw someone else with a gun and the cops wouldn't know there are multiple shooters.


Weird how no matter how many times this is asserted, it has never happened. Not once. 

Weird.



> Its not taken into considering that the locations they target are gun free zones, like I said they always have a connection to it. That is why when ever you see a school shooting for example, its always the school they went to, or a work shooting, its the work they used to work at or work at. People like this are usually mentally ill and don't think about oh its a gun free zone.


Also false. 

You just make stuff up and run with it incessantly.


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## Miss Sally (Jul 14, 2014)

KingCosmos said:


> The amount of ignorance towards science in this thread makes my head hurt.


Why not enlighten us? We could use someone with real scientific knowledge in here, what year did you graduate? I'd be eager to know what a real scientist has to say! Gosh guys we have an very educated man of science in here. Can you please fix the thread up for us?


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## bullshitter (Mar 23, 2016)

So anyway this was a hate crime by someone feeling huge amounts of guilt about their sexuality in light of their belief structure yeah?


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## Oda Nobunaga (Jun 12, 2006)

bullshitter said:


> So anyway this was a hate crime by someone feeling huge amounts of guilt about their sexuality in light of their belief structure yeah?


If he was gay. I'm not interested in the Religion/Gun debate (I don't care about religion and the gun debate will go around in circles), but as far as this guy is concerned, no one really knows if he was gay. Apparently, he was bullied when he was younger by Hispanics when he was younger and held a grudge if the news reports are true. I didn't catch where the hatred for gays came from - could've been he was sexually repressed or he legit didn't like 'em. I don't know. Reports are still coming in about the case.


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## ST1TCH (Aug 6, 2014)

Why are we pretending this is about guns? His belief system encourages and promotes the murder of gays, he could have made an explosive out of common household items or set a fire and achieved the same result. Should we also ban houses and hot air?


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## skypod (Nov 13, 2014)

The problem with the reports coming in is that they'll be buried by the media, because everyone has their agenda with this.

This guy being repressed as a gay person complicates the issue and makes it harder for readers of news to draw an over dramatic bold view, and thus people won't want to read it. 

Some want this to be a simple Muslim terroist attack, others want it to be a symbol of homophobia still going on today, others want it to be about the amount of weaponry available to citizens. This guy being opressed by a culture (that may opress gay people in the written word like a lot of religion but actively is doing violent things towards it in other countries) all his life and lying to himself doesn't fit into anyones narratives and they won't touch it.


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## bullshitter (Mar 23, 2016)

ST1TCH said:


> Why are we pretending this is about guns? His belief system encourages and promotes the murder of gays, he could have made an explosive out of common household items or set a fire and achieved the same result. Should we also ban houses and hot air?


Believe it or not automatic guns are a tool designed for killing others rapidly. He'd have had a harder job with a butter knife for instance.


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## skypod (Nov 13, 2014)

ST1TCH said:


> Why are we pretending this is about guns? His belief system encourages and promotes the murder of gays, he could have made an explosive out of common household items or set a fire and achieved the same result. Should we also ban houses and hot air?



Under that same logic, should we not stop any citizen from buying a gun? Criminals are going to get guns regardless of laws so why should we have laws in the first place. Just get rid of the whole system and let people run amock. The bad will do bad things and the good will do good things. Whats the point of trying anymore?


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## Oda Nobunaga (Jun 12, 2006)

skypod said:


> The problem with the reports coming in is that they'll be buried by the media, because everyone has their agenda with this.
> 
> This guy being repressed as a gay person complicates the issue and makes it harder for readers of news to draw an over dramatic bold view, and thus people won't want to read it.
> 
> Some want this to be a simple Muslim terroist attack, others want it to be a symbol of homophobia still going on today, others want it to be about the amount of weaponry available to citizens. This guy being opressed by a culture (that may opress gay people in the written word like a lot of religion but actively is doing violent things towards it in other countries) all his life and lying to himself doesn't fit into anyones narratives and they won't touch it.


Agreed. That's why all the pieces need to come together. If all the pieces from every source comes together, a more clear path to the truth will be revealed. That doesn't mean, however, that the path will lead us straight to it. The guy is dead. In the end, only he can explain what his exact motives were and why he felt the way he did unless he has a firsthand written or visual record. Secondhand sources and hearsay can only do so much.


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## gamegenie (Aug 14, 2011)

Omar was a repressed homosexual and I think when you realize he himself was a closet case, it eliminates half the rhetoric from this story, it makes many who jumped on board fast (Donald Trump, ISIS) look like fools, and in the end the center argument of this story should be gun control. 

Had our government worked together instead of trying to protect the NRA, we would have had a system in place that limited the freedom of buying any weapon. Especially someone who was on the Terror watch list. 


Hell, if I can end up on the National Drivers Registry list that could limit my ability to renew my drivers licenses online, and obtain a license in any other state... Which I found out by the BMV that it is in error that I see that I'm listed and they couldn't see anything in their system to explain why...

Why the hell is there no bureaucracies and system prevention in the place for buying weapons that kill mass amount of peoples. 


Here we have too much regulation on the traffic side, and less regulation on the arms side.


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## 2 Ton 21 (Dec 28, 2011)

Looks like the wife might get charged as an accessory. She's under investigation by grand jury. She drove him to scout the club and was with him when bought the weapons. She told the FBI she tried to talk him out of it, so she knew what he was gong to do before hand. He also was scouting DisneyWorld.

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/orlando-nightclub-massacre/omar-mateen-s-wife-tried-talk-him-out-orlando-attack-n592051



> *Omar Mateen's Wife Tried to Talk Him Out of Orlando Attack, Sources Say*
> 
> The Orlando gunman's wife has told federal agents she tried to talk her husband out of carrying out the attack, NBC News has learned.
> 
> ...


http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/06/14/orlando-gunman-made-multiple-visits-to-nightclub-attacked-reports-say.html



> *Federal prosecutors convene grand jury to investigate wife of Orlando massacre gunman, source says*
> 
> Nightclub shooter Omar Mateen reportedly shared deadly plans with spouse. Reaction and legal analysis on 'The Real Story'
> 
> ...


http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/14/us/orlando-shooter-omar-mateen/index.html



> *Scouting out Disney World, Disney Springs*
> 
> Investigators look into Omar Mateen's past 01:53
> Disney security officials told the FBI they believe Mateen visited Disney World on April 26 to conduct surveillance, a law enforcement official told CNN. The FBI is investigating that possibility.
> ...


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## blackholeson (Oct 3, 2014)

This tragedy was horrible and God doesn't exist. Anyone who thinks otherwise is wrong. God has never existed. The existence of God is ludicrous, literally. We aren't here for any special reason. We just are as is everything else. You can disagree with this, but that just makes you ignorant. This isn't a matter of opinion. Acting as if their is a creator is just plain foolish. Jesus, Satan, Hell, Heaven, Purgatory, and all that other bullshit is man made. Build your churches when your imaginary Messiah tells you not to do so. Believe that God is a "him" which in turn makes him mortal. Tell yourself that Moses split the Red Sea it will only lower your already low IQ. Pretend that there is some magical explanation to all of existence because it only under minds all that is. You know the ever expanding Universe that has no beginning, or end was created in 7 days, lol. I'm tired of religious folks acting as if their "faith" is fact. It's beyond depressing and honestly not a single person on here who believes in God can argue otherwise logically. You may be able to form some illogical argument to what I have said, but the problem with that is no matter what you are wrong. May the families victims rest in peace.


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## KingCosmos (Aug 18, 2013)

Miss Sally said:


> Why not enlighten us? We could use someone with real scientific knowledge in here, what year did you graduate? I'd be eager to know what a real scientist has to say! Gosh guys we have an very educated man of science in here. Can you please fix the thread up for us?


Why don't you enlighten yourself, like some people in this thread clearly need to? The fact that you think a degree is needed to comprehend basic concepts and the bare minimum of understanding and knowledge on scientific theories shows your immense idiocy. Why don't you read a book or pick up a scientific journal you imbecile?


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## skypod (Nov 13, 2014)

I feel like the voice of people who simply want a small regulation of "if you're on the FBI list you shouldnt get a gun" and "we should limit citizens carrying high powered weaponry" you're thrown into this far left liberal group of wanting to run around peoples houses and steal everyones guns from their hands. Nobodys willing to give an inch, and we can see this when changes are trying to be made and they're shot down, pun intended.


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## ST1TCH (Aug 6, 2014)

skypod said:


> Under that same logic, should we not stop any citizen from buying a gun? Criminals are going to get guns regardless of laws so why should we have laws in the first place. Just get rid of the whole system and let people run amock. The bad will do bad things and the good will do good things. Whats the point of trying anymore?


That's not the point, this isn't a gun issue. To answer your question, it's right there in the Constitution how gun ownership should be handled. If we're allowing people to live in this country when we know that they're going to do something like this (the warning signs were overwhelming), then that's where the failure is.

The real issue is being pushed under the rug again, so we can expect another tragedy next week and the next and the next because we're just ignoring it so no one's feelings get hurt.


----------



## gamegenie (Aug 14, 2011)

blackholeson said:


> This tragedy was horrible and God doesn't exist. Anyone who thinks otherwise is wrong. God has never existed. The existence of God is ludicrous, literally. We aren't here for any special reason. We just are as is everything else. You can disagree with this, but that just makes you ignorant. This isn't a matter of opinion. Acting as if their is a creator is just plain foolish. Jesus, Satan, Hell, Heaven, Purgatory, and all that other bullshit is man made. Build your churches when your imaginary Messiah tells you not to do so. Believe that God is a "him" which in turn makes him mortal. Tell yourself that Moses split the Red Sea it will only lower your already low IQ. Pretend that there is some magical explanation to all of existence because it only under minds all that is. You know the ever expanding Universe that has no beginning, or end was created in 7 days, lol. I'm tired of religious folks acting as if their "faith" is fact. It's beyond depressing and honestly not a single person on here who believes in God can argue otherwise logically. You may be able to form some illogical argument to what I have said, but the problem with that is no matter what you are wrong. May the families victims rest in peace.


OK. I have a question for you non-believers. 

If God doesn't exist, why don't you kill yourself? Surely there's no harm in dying, right? You might just get reincarnated to a new being right? 

Come on. Give me your best excuse. 

In the words of Sonic T. Hedgehog: "I'm waiting."


----------



## ST1TCH (Aug 6, 2014)

bullshitter said:


> Believe it or not automatic guns are a tool designed for killing others rapidly. He'd have had a harder job with a butter knife for instance.


Well, good thing there isn't anything on the danger spectrum between assault rifle and butter knife.


----------



## blackholeson (Oct 3, 2014)

gamegenie said:


> OK. I have a question for you non-believers.
> 
> If God doesn't exist, why don't you kill yourself? Surely there's no harm in dying, right? You might just get reincarnated to a new being right?
> 
> ...


Why would I kill myself? I have a life to live. Seriously, are you that ignorant? That's your big comeback. Man, I thought I heard it all. Apparently there are still plenty of morons like you out there. Just because there isn't a God doesn't mean I should kill myself. No one wants to do that and that has been the case since before any established, monotheistic, religion existed. Animals even fear death. You're such a fool. I mean that literally, you're a fool. Stop posting on here. I find your response highly offensive based on the lack of brain spewing it out.


----------



## ST1TCH (Aug 6, 2014)

blackholeson said:


> This tragedy was horrible and God doesn't exist. Anyone who thinks otherwise is wrong. God has never existed. The existence of God is ludicrous, literally. We aren't here for any special reason. We just are as is everything else. You can disagree with this, but that just makes you ignorant. This isn't a matter of opinion. Acting as if their is a creator is just plain foolish. Jesus, Satan, Hell, Heaven, Purgatory, and all that other bullshit is man made. Build your churches when your imaginary Messiah tells you not to do so. Believe that God is a "him" which in turn makes him mortal. Tell yourself that Moses split the Red Sea it will only lower your already low IQ. Pretend that there is some magical explanation to all of existence because it only under minds all that is. You know the ever expanding Universe that has no beginning, or end was created in 7 days, lol. I'm tired of religious folks acting as if their "faith" is fact. It's beyond depressing and honestly not a single person on here who believes in God can argue otherwise logically. You may be able to form some illogical argument to what I have said, but the problem with that is no matter what you are wrong. May the families victims rest in peace.


I know it's really cool and edgy to be an outspoken atheist these days and tell everyone you know with faith in something other than themselves that they're stupid, but it's an extremely trashy move.


----------



## blackholeson (Oct 3, 2014)

ST1TCH said:


> I know it's really cool and edgy to be an outspoken atheist these days and tell everyone you know with faith in something other than themselves that they're stupid, but it's an extremely trashy move.


I never said anyone was stupid. I could care less how edgy it is. Being an Atheist isn't a trend. Only some God loving, hipster, liberal would say something that silly. Being an Atheist means you think with logic and not based on faith. Do you pray cancer away, or do you find treatment from people who have dedicated their lives to curing Cancer? You know what's trashy. The fact that people seem to think that their religious views matter. They don't. Religion is based on faith not fact. What's so hard to understand?


----------



## skypod (Nov 13, 2014)

ST1TCH said:


> That's not the point, this isn't a gun issue. To answer your question, it's right there in the Constitution how gun ownership should be handled. If we're allowing people to live in this country when we know that they're going to do something like this (the warning signs were overwhelming), then that's where the failure is.
> 
> The real issue is being pushed under the rug again, so we can expect another tragedy next week and the next and the next because we're just ignoring it so no one's feelings get hurt.



There's a lot less to gain from deporting Muslims than there is for putting a slight restriction of the force of weaponry a citizen can have.

You're saying deport a loving Muslim father (who runs his own business and benefits the community) back to Pakistan because that will curtail these events more than restricting the kind of guns a citizen (yes even those white citizens who believe it or not sometimes commit mass murders) can have? I'm still not understand the amount of bears or burglars that attack Americans that they need to fire 30+ shots a minute. Are you expecting a zombie invasion of that of a Walking Dead finale? 


I completely agree there is a conflict in Islam and their idealogy just now not only with the West but with themselves, and we'll be dealing with that more and more in the years to come. But it's a lot more complicated than just their faith steering them wrong. It's the corruption in their countries, the staggering wealth divide in the world, the lack of education, the wars we've been involved in etc. etc.


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## gamegenie (Aug 14, 2011)

blackholeson said:


> Why would I kill myself?I have a life to live. Seriously, are you that ignorant? That's your big comeback. Man, I thought I heard it all. Apparently there are still plenty of morons like you out there. Just because there isn't a God doesn't mean I should kill myself. No one wants to do that and that has been the case since before any established, monotheistic, religion existed. Animals even fear death. You're such a fool. I mean that literally, you're a fool. Stop posting on here. I find your response highly offensive based on the lack of brain spewing it out.


You want to live, you feel you have a life to live because the Holy Spirit within you tells you. 

For all your efforts to discredit God, you prove in your response that God exists. 

Animals don't fear death, they have no conscious of thought, that is reserved for humans which God made in his image. 

I post wherever God wants to me post, and right now he wants me to instill some knowledge into some of you faithless people.


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## RetepAdam. (May 13, 2007)

ST1TCH said:


> Why are we pretending this is about guns? His belief system encourages and promotes the murder of gays, he could have made an explosive out of common household items or set a fire and achieved the same result. Should we also ban houses and hot air?


If that was something that happened in America at an alarming rate, I'm sure people would be saying "Hey, we should probably consider cracking down on bomb control" instead.

But it doesn't — and he didn't. :draper2



gamegenie said:


> OK. I have a question for you non-believers.
> 
> If God doesn't exist, why don't you kill yourself? Surely there's no harm in dying, right? You might just get reincarnated to a new being right?
> 
> ...


Wait, what? :lmao

Atheists don't believe in reincarnation. They don't believe in an afterlife. They tend to believe that when you die, you just cease to exist. So, there's no real incentive to killing oneself unless a person believes that literal nothingness would be better than their continued day-to-day existence.

Let's turn that question around: Since heaven is supposedly something that exists and is said to be just the absolute tits, why don't #good #Christians just kill themselves and skip to the good part? After all, most of what I've read suggests that while God isn't too keen on the idea of His children offing themselves, it's apparently not a dealbreaker with regards to whether or not someone gets in the pearly gates. So, if someone has the word of God in their mouth and the love of Christ in their heart, why not just expedite the process of foresaking their earthly body and ascending to a higher plane? :cudi


----------



## blackholeson (Oct 3, 2014)

gamegenie said:


> You want to live, you feel you have a life to live because the Holy Spirit within you tells you.
> 
> For all your efforts to discredit God, you prove in your response that God exists.
> 
> ...


Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, and wrong. Animals do fear death. It's why they run from their predators. You just got owned. Not a single person can prove God exist. There is no Holy Spirit. Have you ever heard of the conscious mind? That's actually what keeps people from killing themselves. Also I think that love, family, and just life in general is a reason not to end it all. Don't you? Let me flip the argument on you. Why don't you religious folks just kill yourselves? Oh, that's right because you made up Satan and of course suicide is against God. God isn't real and that's a fact. Just stop with your nonsense.


----------



## Oda Nobunaga (Jun 12, 2006)

This isn't a thread to convert the faithless. If you want to do that, do it in Rants. First and last warning.


----------



## Gandhi (Sep 15, 2012)

ST1TCH said:


> Why are we pretending this is about guns? His belief system encourages and promotes the murder of gays, he could have made an explosive out of common household items or set a fire and achieved the same result. Should we also ban houses and hot air?


People don't want to come off as _"assholes"_ and call muslims out.

It's pretty sad & pathetic.


----------



## blackholeson (Oct 3, 2014)

Oda Nobunaga said:


> This isn't a thread to convert the faithless. If you want to do that, do it in Rants. First and last warning.


I didn't start the conversation I just ended it. No one is looking to convert anyone, anymore, lol.


----------



## Oda Nobunaga (Jun 12, 2006)

blackholeson said:


> I didn't start the conversation I just ended it. No one is looking to convert anyone.


I was speaking in general terms, not directly to you. If it seemed that way, it wasn't intended.

Trying to maintain peace in this thread. :mj2


----------



## blackholeson (Oct 3, 2014)

Gandhi said:


> People don't want to come off as _"assholes"_ and call muslims out.
> 
> It's pretty sad & pathetic.


What? Calling Muslims out. Are you silly today? You can't just call out Muslims. This was just some crazy asshole who decided to kill a bunch of innocent people having a good time. People need to stop this bullshit about Muslims having to condemn this shit. It's not radical Islam. It's just a bunch of poor, uneducated, assholes who have no sense other than to kill innocent people. Majority of the crimes committed in this country are done so by Christians. Should the Church come out and condemn all their actions? No.


----------



## DesolationRow (Oct 11, 2009)

*Re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



BruiserKC said:


> The FBI dropped the ball, no question. They should have kept tabs on the man and didn't. That's on the feds, I don't want folks that are on these lists getting arms.


What we have learned from Boston, San Bernardino and Orlando is to not trust the government to protect you because they will, likely as not, completely fail. 

Tamerlan Tsarnaev, a U.S. citizen and the son of Muslim immigrants, was investigated by the FBI for connections to many Islamic radicals. They dropped the investigation. He and his brother killed three people and injured 264 others at the April 2013 Boston Marathon. Syed Farook, a U.S. citizen and the son of Muslim immigrants, was investigated by the FBI for connections to many Islamic radicals. The FBI dropped the investigation. He and his wife, a Muslim immigrant, killed 14 and injured 22 others in San Bernardino in December 2015. Omar Mateen, a U.S. citizen and the son of Muslim immigrants, was investigated by the FBI--twice--for connections to many Islamic radicals. Twice the FBI dropped the investigation. As of now, he succeeded in killing 49 and injured at least 50 others in Orlando in June of 2016. 

At the time of Boston, it looked like an anomaly. A second episode establishes a pattern. The third establishes that the FBI is almost useless and that a congressional investigation is in order. 

That, of course, will not be happening.

The FBI has achieved many arrests and prosecutions of suspects, all U.S. citizens, all professing Muslims, many either recent immigrants, most the children of immigrants, or, in some instances, converts to Islam. I closely followed one such case here in the San Francisco Bay Area and asked the local FBI many questions concerning it. 

I'm not some huge fan of Free Beacon but in this instance they are right with this report: http://freebeacon.com/national-secu...amas-politically-correct-policy-analysts-say/ Like a good, useless Republican, George W. Bush's prescription for America after 9/11 was to "go shopping." Obama, however, is fostering a politically correct-to-a-fault FBI whose counterterrorism methods are a bit pitiful. 



> FBI Director James Comey defended the bureau despite the fact that agents first identified Mateen as a terror risk in May 2013 after a coworker alerted authorities that he had voiced sympathy for Islamic terrorists.
> 
> The tipoff showed that the Department of Homeland Security’s high-profile tip program, called “see something, say something” is not enough to prevent terrorist attacks.
> 
> ...


We live in a funhouse version of reality. The U.S. has, for decades, strengthened and supported the rise of militant Islamism from Afghanistan to Pakistan to Kosovo to Iraq, et. al., has had an open-door policy vis-à-vis immigration (and is almost militantly arguing on behalf the continuation of Europe's open border processing for migrants, exhibiting rage toward countries such as Hungary and Poland that do not wish to follow suit), all while engaging in wasteful, ruinous wars that have created wreckage-besot, anarchic arenas of mayhem like Iraq, Libya and, as much as the U.S. can, Syria, but on the home front political correctness must rule the day.


----------



## FITZ (May 8, 2007)

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-06-12/orlando-shooter-worked-for-security-firm-with-government-ties

He was required by his employer to have a gun license. His employer was paid almost $90 million by the US government for security contracts. They did background checks and nothing came up. 



I find this to be an interesting read and this is a very odd issue because it puts liberals in a position where they are advocating for discrimination against Muslims. 

If someone is on a terrorist watch list it makes sense not to let them own guns. But Mateen ended up on a terrorist watchlist for comments that he made at work. I don't know what he said but I've made comments that could probably get me on a watchlist if I weren't white. I'm pretty sure I told my dad that if he was Palestinian he would probably be a terrorist and I would be right there with him. Or that if I wasn't a terrorist in the Middle East and had US forces kill my family I would probably become one soon after. Anyway, comments got him on the list. That's all. 

But people want to have a Constitutional right taken away from him because of that. 

I don't exactly trust our federal government very much. The same logic that would apply to take away 2nd Amendment Rights of people on watch lists could be used to take away 4th and 5th Amendment Rights from these same people (searches and right to counsel among other things). I mean the alternate story where the shooting doesn't happen works, and actually works better, if police had just ignored Mateen's 4th and 5th Amendment rights. They bust into house at 3am, look at all of his information on his computer and look at all his stuff in his house. Than cuff him and aggressively question him and his ex-wife about what he was going to do. Problem solved. 



I find this to be a really strange situation because there are so many different issues. He was on a watch list and that didn't show up on a background check. OK well there is no due process at all to get someone on the list and if employers could find out people wouldn't get jobs when they did nothing wrong. Doing the things that we needed to do to stop Mateen would involving creating processes and systems that discriminate against people from the Middle East. That's what a lot of you guys seem to be advocating for when you say things like people on the watch lists shouldn't be able to get guns. It's going to affect a lot more Muslims than non-Muslims. 

The 2nd Amendment seems to flip things. I feel like it's normally the conservatives who are all about discriminating against Muslims in any way they can. But now that we're talking about the second Amendment it's the liberals that want to discriminate against Muslims. 





gamegenie said:


> OK. I have a question for you non-believers.
> 
> If God doesn't exist, why don't you kill yourself? Surely there's no harm in dying, right? You might just get reincarnated to a new being right?
> 
> ...


What?


----------



## blackholeson (Oct 3, 2014)

Oda Nobunaga said:


> I was speaking in general terms, not directly to you. If it seemed that way, it wasn't intended.
> 
> Trying to maintain peace in this thread. :mj2


Certainly, thanks for pointing that out. Peace has been achieved. Glad you posted this response. Thank you! :smile2:


----------



## FITZ (May 8, 2007)

DesolationRow said:


> What we have learned from Boston, San Bernardino and Orlando is to not trust the government to protect you because they will, likely as not, completely fail.
> 
> Tamerlan Tsarnaev, a U.S. citizen and the son of Muslim immigrants, was investigated by the FBI for connections to many Islamic radicals. They dropped the investigation. He and his brother killed three people and injured 264 others at the April 2013 Boston Marathon. Syed Farook, a U.S. citizen and the son of Muslim immigrants, was investigated by the FBI for connections to many Islamic radicals. The FBI dropped the investigation. He and his wife, a Muslim immigrant, killed 14 and injured 22 others in San Bernardino in December 2015. Omar Mateen, a U.S. citizen and the son of Muslim immigrants, was investigated by the FBI--twice--for connections to many Islamic radicals. Twice the FBI dropped the investigation. As of now, he succeeded in killing 49 and injured at least 50 others in Orlando in June of 2016.
> 
> ...


I wonder how many people they start to investigate, stop, and then those people never do anything. Part of me thinks that there must be a ton of unfounded tips that come in against Muslims.


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## Gandhi (Sep 15, 2012)

blackholeson said:


> What? Calling Muslims out. Are you silly today? You can't just call out Muslims. This was just some crazy asshole who decided to kill a bunch of innocent people having a good time. People need to stop this bullshit about Muslims having to condemn this shit. It's not radical Islam. It's just a bunch of poor, uneducated, assholes who have no sense other than to kill innocent people. Majority of the crimes committed in this country are done so by Christians. Should the Church come out and condemn all their actions? No.


I'm not silly today.

You can call muslims out, although they have a habit of either running away or trying to silence me.

Moderates claim islam is a religion of peace, but the truth is moderates indirectly promote so called radical islam because said form of islam is what islam is. The scriptures are clear, and muslims who don't go out killing are either hypocrites, too cowardly to break the law, or are ignorant of their religion. Islam needs to get the same treatment christianity, and that's complete criticism and even mockery for being a hateful violent unethical cult.

Also are you calling the shooter an uneducated asshole because he was following islam? Are you saying people who follow islam are as such? I also am okay with the mockery & vilification of christianity, though this doesn't change that part of this shooting's influence is from the shooter being a devote muslim who wants to follow islam.

So yes, we should call muslims out and corner them in their beliefs that indirectly promote real islam.


----------



## Miss Sally (Jul 14, 2014)

KingCosmos said:


> Why don't you enlighten yourself, like some people in this thread clearly need to? The fact that you  think a degree is needed to comprehend basic concepts and the bare minimum of understanding and knowledge on scientific theories shows your immense idiocy. Why don't you read a book or pick up a scientific journal you imbecile?


Why don't you calm down, how can I take anything you say serious when you're hurling insults around and getting so upset? From what you said you made it sound like you're an expert on science so if you're really that upset by the lack of knowledge here why don't you enlighten us? I don't have to do anything, I'm not the one saying everyone is wrong and I'm right, that's you! So the burden of why everyone is wrong rests on you. I'll be waiting for your reply and detailed post on why some of the science here and theories are incorrect!


----------



## gamegenie (Aug 14, 2011)

RetepAdam. said:


> If that was something that happened in America at an alarming rate, I'm sure people would be saying "Hey, we should probably consider cracking down on bomb control" instead.
> 
> But it doesn't — and he didn't. :draper2
> 
> ...


simple, you can't cheat God out of his divine will for us. By committing suicide in attempt to get to heaven, you will end up in hell.


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## Gandhi (Sep 15, 2012)

gamegenie said:


> simple, you can't cheat God out of his divine will for us. By committing suicide in attempt to get to heaven, you will end up in hell.


Exactly why would a loving forgiving god send people to hell if they commit suicide?

What if someone is genuinely depressed, hopeless, emotionally weakened, and feels nothing but pain? For the sake of argument assume said person isn't a criminal trying to run away from jail, why would a loving merciful god send a poor person who wanted to end their suffering to hell?

I've never understood this stance from christians and muslims.


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## blackholeson (Oct 3, 2014)

Gandhi said:


> I'm not silly today.
> 
> You can call muslims out, although they have a habit of either running away or trying to silence me.
> 
> ...


Too cowardly to break the law? You mean they're decent people who refuse to take their religion literally. He was an uneducated asshole not because of his religious beliefs. Seriously, don't pull that shit with me. You may be able to pull that kind of left wing bullshit with others, not me kid. He is an asshole because he killed innocent people. There is no such thing as "real Islam". Any ideology is left for individual interpretation. Just because most Muslims don't want to kill non believers doesn't make them hypocrites and it doesn't mean they don't follow their religion correctly. You almost sound as if you are defending this violence. Interesting.


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## gamegenie (Aug 14, 2011)

blackholeson said:


> Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, and wrong. Animals do fear death. It's why they run from their predators. *You just got owned*. Not a single person can prove God exist. There is no Holy Spirit. Have you ever heard of the conscious mind? That's actually what keeps people from killing themselves. Also I think that love, family, and just life in general is a reason not to end it all. Don't you? Let me flip the argument on you. Why don't you religious folks just kill yourselves? Oh, that's right because you made up Satan and of course suicide is against God. God isn't real and that's a fact. Just stop with your nonsense.


that part I bolded and underscored, made me chuckle. 

Animals do not have a conscious of thought like you and I, you holding them up to higher regard, is quite hilarious. 

You cannot disprove God exists, how is that flipping the argument on me, I know God is real and so is the Devil. You on the other hand just think life just came to be the way it is, which you can't really pin-point the beginning.


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## Miss Sally (Jul 14, 2014)

Hold up, killing in the name of Islam has nothing to do with Islam so Muslims don't need to condemn it? That's silly thinking, once he pledged to ISIS and killed in the name of Islam it became about Islam, why is it when a Muslim commits an act of Religious terror suddenly it's not about Religion? So if a KKK member kills a black man it's not about hate or race? It's just some guy killing another guy, has nothing to do with his KKK standing at all! That's bullshit!

It doesn't matter if the shooter was a repressed homosexual or not, what he did was an act of terror, it became so once he did it in the name of ISIS. It also completely disproves the gay bar was a random target. His faith drove him to commit an act of terror because as a devout Muslim, homosexuality is wrong. So therefore any notion that this is simply a hate crime is redundant because the shooter killed in the name of his faith because he could not stand his sexuality.


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## Dolorian (Oct 5, 2015)

blackholeson said:


> Being an Atheist means you think with logic and not based on faith.


No, it doesn't necessarily means that.


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## Gandhi (Sep 15, 2012)

blackholeson said:


> Too cowardly to break the law? You mean they're decent people who refuse to take their religion literally. He was an uneducated asshole not because of his religious beliefs. Seriously, don't pull that shit with me. You may be able to pull that kind of left wing bullshit with others, not me kid. He is an asshole because he killed innocent people. There is no such thing as "real Islam". Any ideology is left for individual interpretation. Just because most Muslims don't want to kill non believers doesn't make them hypocrites and it doesn't mean they don't follow their religion correctly. You almost sound as if you are defending this violence. Interesting.


I've spoken to muslims who told me they'd wanna kill bisexual people I knew in Egypt, and they have told me that they only weren't doing it because _"Egypt was a shitty country that was spineless enough not to follow islam and allow them"_. You don't know why I say the things I say, and most likely don't have the experience of engaging muslims in thought like I have.

There is real islam, it is the islam that was started and has been followed for centuries without being changed. Sunni islam, the words of islam's leader and founder Mohammed. Nothing you say will change that islam is what it is. Just as there is real concepts of everything, there is islam. One cannot say Mohammed ordered us we eat peanuts on sundays, but one can say Mohammed ordered us to kill gay people.

*From the hadiths (Mohammed's own words)*

Abu Dawud (4462) - The Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said, "Whoever you find doing the action of the people of Loot, execute the one who does it and the one to whom it is done.".

Now try giving me your _"people are left for individual interpretation"_ shit with this hadith.


----------



## birthday_massacre (Jan 30, 2013)

ST1TCH said:


> Why are we pretending this is about guns? His belief system encourages and promotes the murder of gays, he could have made an explosive out of common household items or set a fire and achieved the same result. Should we also ban houses and hot air?


It is about guns how is it not? He was on a terrorist watch list, and because of the right fighting for gun rights, they made it so people on a terrorist watch list or have been, can get guns. How is the not a gun issue?
Not to mention assault rifles are only used for one thing, killing a lot of people fast, how is that not a guns issue?

Of course this is a guns issue. And I love how people like you almost making stupid comments like "should we also ban houses and hot air" those are not made for killing people, assault rifles and guns are.



Gandhi said:


> I've spoken to muslims who told me they'd wanna kill bisexual people I knew in Egypt, and they have told me that they only weren't doing it because _"Egypt was a shitty country that was spineless enough not to follow islam and allow them"_. You don't know why I say the things I say, and most likely don't have the experience of engaging muslims in thought like I have.
> 
> There is real islam, it is the islam that was started and has been followed for centuries without being changed. Sunni islam, the words of islam's leader and founder Mohammed. Nothing you say will change that islam is what it is. Just as there is real concepts of everything, there is islam. One cannot say Mohammed ordered us we eat peanuts on sundays, but one can say Mohammed ordered us to kill gay people.
> 
> ...


http://reason.com/blog/2016/06/13/in-america-muslims-are-more-likely-to-su


In America, Muslims Are More Likely to Support Gay Marriage Than Evangelical Christians


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## Gandhi (Sep 15, 2012)

birthday_massacre said:


> http://reason.com/blog/2016/06/13/in-america-muslims-are-more-likely-to-su
> 
> 
> In America, Muslims Are More Likely to Support Gay Marriage Than Evangelical Christians


Yeah that's all fine and dandy (if it's true) but it isn't relevant to my point.

Dunno why the fuck you even responded to me.


----------



## deepelemblues (Sep 26, 2011)

bullshitter said:


> Believe it or not automatic guns are a tool designed for killing others rapidly. He'd have had a harder job with a butter knife for instance.


Good thing he didn't have an automatic (machine) gun then.

Someone without guns who wants to kill a bunch of people would definitely think a butter knife is the way to go.

The savage ingenuity of human beings should get a little more credit than that.


----------



## bullshitter (Mar 23, 2016)

ST1TCH said:


> That's not the point, this isn't a gun issue. To answer your question, it's right there in the Constitution how gun ownership should be handled. If we're allowing people to live in this country when we know that they're going to do something like this (the warning signs were overwhelming), then that's where the failure is.
> 
> The real issue is being pushed under the rug again, so we can expect another tragedy next week and the next and the next because we're just ignoring it so no one's feelings get hurt.


Look the point is there's a number of reasons for why you have mass shootingd in the states so regularly, these include but are not limited to:

Your actions in the Middle East
Your incredibly relaxed automatic gun ownership laws
Your social welfare system and the lack of support for those who need it ie. The poor, marginalised and unstable.
Your gross wage inequality
Your terrible healthcare system which again effects the worst off so much more this anyone else

Etc etc a solution will come from tackling ALL of these not from pretending one doesn't matter, particularly one that has a DIRECT effect on the number of deaths a single person can cause.


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## bullshitter (Mar 23, 2016)

deepelemblues said:


> Good thing he didn't have an automatic (machine) gun then.
> 
> Someone without guns who wants to kill a bunch of people would definitely think a butter knife is the way to go.
> 
> The savage ingenuity of human beings should get a little more credit than that.


SERIOUSLY are you going to try to say a gun didn't help him kill so many people?
Seriously?


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## birthday_massacre (Jan 30, 2013)

Gandhi said:


> Yeah that's all fine and dandy (if it's true) but it isn't relevant to my point.
> 
> Dunno why the fuck you even responded to me.


God in the bible tells christians to kill gays as well but of course you failed to point that out because you just want to make it seem like Islam is bad because it says to kill gays, Christianity does too.

the point is, people like you and all your bashing of Islam, Christianity is just as bad and when it comes to gays Islam in the US is more accepting than Evangelical Christians.


----------



## deepelemblues (Sep 26, 2011)

> Your incredibly relaxed automatic gun ownership laws


it is incredibly difficult to legally purchase or possess an automatic weapon in the united states



> Your actions in the Middle East


by that logic then they're responsible for our actions in the middle east because we're responding to them because they're responding to us because we're responding to them back until the very first time an american and a muslim got into it or the very first time a christian and a muslim got into it and whoever started it the very first time is to blame. so you gonna hop in a time machine and go back to the barbary wars or back to 640 AD and figure out who started it so we can figure out who is responsible for the real reason?



> Your social welfare system and the lack of support for those who need it ie. The poor, marginalised and unstable.


the poor in the united states live materially better off than most of the middle class in western europe, so sadly no. 



> Your gross wage inequality


the idea that this contributes to violence is ridiculous. there is no evidence for it in any criminology study anywhere.



> Your terrible healthcare system which again effects the worst off so much more this anyone else


this is another ridiculous idea. the single payer healthcare systems of western europe have not done anything to reduce violence by the "worst off" in those countries.



> Etc etc a solution will come from tackling ALL of these not from pretending one doesn't matter, particularly one that has a DIRECT effect on the number of deaths a single person can cause.


changing the situation with every thing you said would accomplish precisely nothing. it's seriously weird how you managed to toss the dart into the opposite corner from the board 5 times in a row. 

mostly it seems to stem from ignorance, you think automatic weapons are easily obtainable in the united states, you think having government healthcare for everybody reduces violence, you think "wage inequality" causes violence, you think not generous enough welfare programs cause violence. there is no evidence for any of this anywhere in the united states or in europe.


----------



## bullshitter (Mar 23, 2016)

deepelemblues said:


> it is incredibly difficult to legally purchase or possess an automatic weapon in the united states
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Keep the delusion cranked up to 50 soon you'll be seeing Santa and body popping fairies.


----------



## Gandhi (Sep 15, 2012)

birthday_massacre said:


> God in the bible tells christians to kill gays as well but of course you failed to point that out because you just want to make it seem like Islam is bad because it says to kill gays, Christianity does too.
> 
> the point is, people like you and all your bashing of Islam, Christianity is just as bad and when it comes to gays Islam in the US is more accepting than Evangelical Christians.


Your post is cringe worthy.

I already know christianity is just as bad as islam, and you know I know. You also know that I've since forever said both christians and muslims deserve to be called out and have been calling christians who don't follow the bible hypocrites on this section for a long time. Nothing you say about christianity is new to me genius.

Yeah, I still don't know why the fuck you've responded to me.


----------



## birthday_massacre (Jan 30, 2013)

Gandhi said:


> Your post is cringe worthy.
> 
> I already know christianity is just as bad as islam, and you know I know. You also know that I've since forever said both christians and muslims deserve to be called out and have been calling christians who don't follow the bible hypocrites on this section for a long time. Nothing you say about christianity is new to me genius.
> 
> Yeah, I still don't know why the fuck you've responded to me.


Because what you are saying can be said about Christianity as well but the right in this country just love to make it about Islam when Christianity is just as bad. Like I posted the other day, 90% of terriost attacks in the US are carried out by non Muslims but Muslims always get 100x more shit for their terrorist attacks in the US and all the others are swept under the rug or excuses are made especially when its Christian terrorist attacks.

that is why I am replying to you, to show you the double standard how how Muslims commit only 10% of the terrorist attacks in the US but that is all you really ever hear about and how oh we need to go bomb then and this and that when no one ever says that about the other terrorist attacks in the US.


----------



## Gandhi (Sep 15, 2012)

birthday_massacre said:


> Because what you are saying can be said about Christianity as well but the right in this country just love to make it about Islam when Christianity is just as bad. Like I posted the other day, 90% of terriost attacks in the US are carried out by non Muslims but Muslims always get 100x more shit for their terrorist attacks in the US and all the others are swept under the rug or excuses are made especially when its Christian terrorist attacks.
> 
> that is why I am replying to you, to show you the double standard how how Muslims commit only 10% of the terrorist attacks in the US but that is all you really ever hear about and how oh we need to go bomb then and this and that when no one ever says that about the other terrorist attacks in the US.


You should try to have christians in America to get 100x more shit then too.

Both christians & muslims everywhere should be called out everywhere. Schools, media, public, _everywhere_.


----------



## birthday_massacre (Jan 30, 2013)

Gandhi said:


> You should try to have christians in America to get 100x more shit then too.
> 
> Both christians & muslims everywhere should be called out everywhere. Schools, media, public, _everywhere_.


I agree with you but in the US they dont, Muslims get it all and Christians dont even for the same actions. When a christian terrorist does a mass shooting, oh it wasnt about religion he had a mental illness when its a Muslim oh its a terrorist and they say we need to ban all muslims, even though this last mass shooter was a US citizen. Not sure how they can ban him. 

I dont see americas sayings christians should be banned from entering the US when a christian does a mass shooting but that is all we hear when its a muslim.


----------



## deepelemblues (Sep 26, 2011)

> SERIOUSLY are you going to try to say a gun didn't help him kill so many people?
> Seriously?


What is the difference between an automatic and semi-automatic gun?

Which kind did the Orlando jihadist use? 

Which kind did you say was used?

How would it be harder for someone without guns to kill as many people if he wasn't a complete mong? Pick a different target. Infants. Children. The elderly. Somewhere with a lot of people but only a small number who could physically oppose you. Humans find a way. We put men on the moon, we unleashed the power of the atom. Think we can't figure out how one person can kill 50 other people in three hours without guns? Or in less than ten minutes? Please. We figured out how to do that kind of shit 5,000 years ago. Probably way earlier. We're sick fucks. That is the problem. Not guns or bombs or anything. 



> Keep the delusion cranked up to 50 soon you'll be seeing Santa and body popping fairies.


how do any of those things cause violence except the first one which is nothing more than a pissing contest back into the mists of time to find out who really started it. which is impossible. well not with the united states and jihadis, the first time they tangled it was because barbary pirates were attacking american ships and selling captured american sailors and passengers into slavery. the corsairs said they didn't give a fuck about us not liking it because we were infidels. they could attack our ships, kill our people, do whatever, because allah said so. we could pay them tribute and they'd stop though. which the united states did, until thomas jefferson became president and they said pay us a lot more tribute now and he said no. the united states had never done anything to muslims back then, it was a country that wasn't even 25 years old. americans had never waged war on muslims or anything before. so under your logic it is their fault.


----------



## Gandhi (Sep 15, 2012)

birthday_massacre said:


> I agree with you but in the US they dont, Muslims get it all and Christians dont even for the same actions. When a christian terrorist does a mass shooting, oh it wasnt about religion he had a mental illness when its a Muslim oh its a terrorist and they say we need to ban all muslims, even though this last mass shooter was a US citizen. Not sure how they can ban him.
> 
> I dont see americas sayings christians should be banned from entering the US when a christian does a mass shooting but that is all we hear when its a muslim.


Obviously christians need to be called out more and feel the heat muslims feel, their time will come but what muslims are going through needs to happen nonetheless be it from christians or atheists.

Islam gets more hate because it's more foreign, and belongs to a minority group in America.

Honestly I'm fine with taking advantage of this in America.


----------



## deepelemblues (Sep 26, 2011)

Gandhi said:


> Obviously christians need to be called out more and feel the heat muslims feel, their time will come but what muslims are going through needs to happen nonetheless be it from christians or atheists.
> 
> Islam gets more hate because it's more foreign, and belongs to a minority group in America.
> 
> Honestly I'm fine with taking advantage of this in America.


I am interested in this plan, how long do you think it will take before Christians remember they're the majority - a majority that isn't going away any time soon - and act accordingly? There could be some fun times before they wise up.


----------



## Gandhi (Sep 15, 2012)

deepelemblues said:


> I am interested in this plan, how long do you think it will take before Christians remember they're the majority - a majority that isn't going away any time soon - and act accordingly? There could be some fun times before they wise up.


Dunno tbh.


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## TheDevilsPimp (Jul 9, 2015)

He was gay.


----------



## birthday_massacre (Jan 30, 2013)

deepelemblues said:


> I am interested in this plan, how long do you think it will take before Christians remember they're the majority - a majority that isn't going away any time soon - and act accordingly? There could be some fun times before they wise up.


What does that even mean exactly? OH you mean they should start mobs and attack Muslims? So you want them to be terrorist?

Yeah great plan you have there.


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## LibertarianAtheist (Feb 10, 2014)

The guy was an Islamist and known ISIS supporter, why am I not surprised


----------



## birthday_massacre (Jan 30, 2013)

LibertarianAtheist said:


> The guy was an Islamist and known ISIS supporter, why am I not surprised


What you should be surprised is that an ISIS supporter was able to get a gun legally because the US guns laws are so weak that someone with known ties are allowed to get guns legally because of the right winged politicians and the NRA.


So what do you have to say about that? You dont think that people with known ties to terrorist groups should be forbidden to get a gun legally?


----------



## Gandhi (Sep 15, 2012)

TheDevilsPimp said:


> He was gay.


People who are going to shoot places up get information before they do it's, seems normal for him to be a local at the bar for 3 years and messaging people. Hell, bombs were put there, he obviously planned a lot.

It's highly unlikely he was even bisexual, let alone gay. 

All that is known as fact is that he was a practicing muslim who did this to follow islam for ISIS.


----------



## yeahbaby! (Jan 27, 2014)

Gandhi said:


> People who are going to shoot places up get information before they do it's, seems normal for him to be a local at the bar for 3 years and messaging people. Hell, bombs were put there, he obviously planned a lot.
> 
> It's highly unlikely he was even bisexual, let alone gay.
> 
> All that is known as fact is that he was a practicing muslim who did this to follow islam for ISIS.


Come on man, that's not all that is known as a fact, this thing has plenty of shades of grey.

The gay stuff is extremely relevant as it adds an extra possible motive to this whole thing. Perhaps he was in the closet, and because of his religion couldn't accept that sexual part of himself and took it out on others. A closeted, gay, fundamentalist muslim = Sounds like the perfect recipe for text book repression to me, and repression always causes bad things eventually.

Secondly, a few pages ago I posted more relevant info showing that the killer pledged his support for other groups as well as ISIS. Groups that were reported *opponents *of ISIS in ideology and whatever other ways may be relevant. Why would he do this? That tells me MAYBE he didn't really give a crap about ISIS or whatever group, he just wanted notoriety for the hideous shit he was about to pull. 

With ISIS being the most well known group of any kind pretty much these days, it's about the easiest thing in the world to simply take pics of yourself smirking with guns et al., and saying 'I love ISIS' and bam! You're a member.


----------



## ElTerrible (Feb 8, 2004)

Gandhi said:


> People who are going to shoot places up get information before they do it's, seems normal for him to be a local at the bar for 3 years and messaging people. Hell, bombs were put there, he obviously planned a lot.
> 
> It's highly unlikely he was even bisexual, let alone gay.
> 
> All that is known as fact is that he was a practicing muslim who did this to follow islam for ISIS.


Three years of scouting the place. Most clubs don´t even have three years. Give me a break. He didn´t plan to rob Fort Knox.


----------



## DesolationRow (Oct 11, 2009)

http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-orlando-nightclub-shooting-20160614-snap-story.html



> At a news conference Tuesday at Florida Hospital in Orlando, one survivor, Patience Carter, described cowering with two friends inside a handicapped bathroom stall at the club while Mateen stood nearby, chatting. Among other things he said, "This is about my country."
> 
> Mateen was born in New York to Afghan immigrants. Although he was a U.S. citizen, he appeared to be talking about Afghanistan.
> 
> "He said the reason why he was doing this was he wanted America to stop bombing his country," Carter said.


----------



## yeahbaby! (Jan 27, 2014)

ElTerrible said:


> Three years of scouting the place. Most clubs don´t even have three years. Give me a break. He didn´t plan to rob Fort Knox.


Lol I know three years.

He was probably interrupted a few times in the toilet stalls kindly 'helping guys out with their stuck zippers' when in fact he was casing out the place for hiding bombs.


----------



## President Trump (Jun 13, 2016)

Muslims make up 0.9% of the adult population in the U.S. Prior to this attack, they were responsible for 6% of the terrorist attacks in the U.S. over the past 30 years. That's a shocking over-representation -- over 600%. It should be enough for any right-minded person to support a ban on Muslims entering the country until a far more thorough vetting process is in place.

Unfortunately, leftists aren't right-minded people. The dangers in America continue to grow as these simpletons continue to allow Muslims in with little to no restraints.

The blood of these 49 slaughtered men and women are on your hands, leftists. I hope you're proud of yourselves.


----------



## nucklehead88 (Dec 17, 2012)

So heres the question....what amendment are you willing to give up first....freedom of religion or freedom to bear arms. Amendment number 1 or Amendment number 2. Make your pick. Because if Trumps plan goes into play, bye bye to the first amendment. From the ideas in this thread, someone is losing a right.


----------



## skypod (Nov 13, 2014)

President Trump said:


> Muslims make up 0.9% of the adult population in the U.S. Prior to this attack, they were responsible for 6% of the terrorist attacks in the U.S. over the past 30 years. That's a shocking over-representation -- over 600%. It should be enough for any right-minded person to support a ban on Muslims entering the country until a far more thorough vetting process is in place.
> 
> Unfortunately, leftists aren't right-minded people. The dangers in America continue to grow as these simpletons continue to allow Muslims in with little to no restraints.
> 
> The blood of these 49 slaughtered men and women are on your hands, leftists. I hope you're proud of yourselves.



So guns CAN be a dangerous weapon but its down to the individual so we shouldn't restrict them. All gun owners shouldn't be punished for the actions of a few.

But you can't make the same argument for Muslims? 


Also are you going to ban white people when the shootings continue with mentally deranged Billy from down the street who "never quite fit in" in high school.


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## yeahbaby! (Jan 27, 2014)

skypod said:


> So guns CAN be a dangerous weapon but its down to the individual so we shouldn't restrict them. All gun owners shouldn't be punished for the actions of a few.
> 
> But you can't make the same argument for Muslims?
> 
> ...


Why bother replying it's a clear troll account. Might even be someone who was banned recently for being a punk ass honky.


----------



## sesshomaru (Dec 11, 2006)

yeahbaby! said:


> Lol I know three years.
> 
> He was probably interrupted a few times in the toilet stalls kindly 'helping guys out with their stuck zippers' when in fact he was casing out the place for hiding bombs.


Or...he was gay? He also did man-on-man stuff on Tinder. What, did he place bombs on the Tinder website too?


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## Reaper (Sep 4, 2013)

yeahbaby! said:


> Why bother replying it's a clear troll account. Might even be someone who was banned recently for being a punk ass honky.


Yeah. I'm willing to bet any money it's that Truthbetold guy.



sesshomaru said:


> Or...he was gay? He also did man-on-man stuff on Tinder. What, did he place bombs on the Tinder website too?


It's a proven fact that the most closeted homophobic individuals are in fact gay. 

That said, I have good reason to believe that humans as a whole are innately bisexual and heterosexuality is socialized into us. This would explain why prison rape is a thing and why homosexual pedophilia is rampant in the Catholic Church. It's not like suddenly when it comes to prisons and catholic church homosexuals become overrepresented. 

Everyone's got pleasure points and it doesn't matter who's stroking them because the pleasure derived from the physical act works.


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## BigVern (May 23, 2016)

The definition of ironic ignorance:

A gay, pothead friend of mine from Indiana (where I lived until I was 21) told me today that if the US government banned all guns they would eventually go away. That if they were illegal people would eventually not have or use them. My gay, pothead friend.


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## Pronoss (Aug 20, 2014)

_*Free Shots for everyone!*_











too soon?
:troll


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## Mifune Jackson (Feb 22, 2013)

nucklehead88 said:


> So heres the question....what amendment are you willing to give up first....freedom of religion or freedom to bear arms. Amendment number 1 or Amendment number 2. Make your pick. Because if Trumps plan goes into play, bye bye to the first amendment. From the ideas in this thread, someone is losing a right.


It's weird how the majority sides of this argument really don't have any concept of this.


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## Rahil_Ryu (Jun 15, 2016)

Maybe it was a ****-hater against gays that done it.


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## birthday_massacre (Jan 30, 2013)

skypod said:


> So guns CAN be a dangerous weapon but its down to the individual so we shouldn't restrict them. All gun owners shouldn't be punished for the actions of a few.
> 
> But you can't make the same argument for Muslims?
> 
> ...


So you think its ok that guns are legally given to people on terrorist watch lists or people that have ties to terrorist groups? You dont think guns should be restricted in those cases?

As for your other point, no you dont restrict guns for white people but you do restrict them to mentally ill people. 

You are not punishing all gun owners when you are not allowing mentally deranged or people with terrorist ties to get them legally.


----------



## BigVern (May 23, 2016)

Mifune Jackson said:


> It's weird how the majority sides of this argument really don't have any concept of this.


This isn't Religion vs Guns, this is Religion vs Freedom (in this case, sexual freedom). Take the guns away and mentally deranged religious zealots will still bring harm to those who they feel deserve it. Whether it be bombs, acid, machetes or fire they still get the job done.

Take the gun away from a radical and they'll still kill.
Take the radical away from a gun owner and their motive is gone.

*I'm not even pro-gun but isn't this fucking obvious?
*
I'm all for tolerance but you can't accept all genders/sexualities while simultaneously accepting a religion that says people who are those genders/sexualities should be put to death.

It's Freedom of Religion vs Every Other Freedom.


----------



## skypod (Nov 13, 2014)

birthday_massacre said:


> So you think its ok that guns are legally given to people on terrorist watch lists or people that have ties to terrorist groups? You dont think guns should be restricted in those cases?
> 
> As for your other point, no you dont restrict guns for white people but you do restrict them to mentally ill people.
> 
> You are not punishing all gun owners when you are not allowing mentally deranged or people with terrorist ties to get them legally.




I don't think you got what i was saying. I was quoting someone else. I am for more control over who gets guns and what guns members of the public can hold.

I am against BOTH blanket punishments of banning all Muslims from being in the country and banning ALL gun owners from owning guns (permitted its the appropriate gun they need).


----------



## skypod (Nov 13, 2014)

BigVern said:


> Take the gun away from a radical and they'll still kill.
> Take the radical away from a gun owner and their motive is gone.



How do you take a radical away though? People don't walk around with it stamped on their forehead, and theres varying degrees to how radical someone is.

Restricting a type of gun (Note - not all guns) someone can get is something much more official and an action that can take place tomorrow. Rather than trying to change a whole culture of a religion which is basically impossible.

Plus I think people seem to be forgetting restricting heavy armoury is about protecting us from lone wolf white terroists as well. Once you ban all the Muslims your problems aren't over.


----------



## Kyle DaCosta (Jun 4, 2016)

I find it so amusing that these guns loving to a sexual level nutbags believe they can still fight off the goverment with their guns. People, please stop listening to insane people like Alex Jones. If our goverment turned on us right now, they would win in a landslide. We would be no match to them with or without our guns. It is not 1890 anymore.

And stop talking about your freedoms. News flash: you never had freedoms and never will. You have privileges that are easily taken away, and the illusion of choice.


----------



## Kyle DaCosta (Jun 4, 2016)

> I'm all for tolerance but you can't accept all genders/sexualities while simultaneously accepting a religion that says people who are those genders/sexualities should be put to death.


Of course America is accepting of a religion that is anti-homosexuals. The biggest religion in America, Christianity is one of the biggest advocates of it.


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## birthday_massacre (Jan 30, 2013)

skypod said:


> I don't think you got what i was saying. I was quoting someone else. I am for more control over who gets guns and what guns members of the public can hold.
> 
> I am against BOTH blanket punishments of banning all Muslims from being in the country and banning ALL gun owners from owning guns (permitted its the appropriate gun they need).


OH ok, your post was kind of confusing because the first part sounds like you said they shouldn't restrict guns. I think putting a period and not a question mark after "So guns CAN be a dangerous weapon but its down to the individual so we shouldn't restrict them" is what confused me. But i ignore punctuation all the time so reading it that way I get it now , my bad


----------



## LibertarianAtheist (Feb 10, 2014)

birthday_massacre said:


> What you should be surprised is that an ISIS supporter was able to get a gun legally because the US guns laws are so weak that someone with known ties are allowed to get guns legally because of the right winged politicians and the NRA.
> 
> 
> So what do you have to say about that? You don't think that people with known ties to terrorist groups should be forbidden to get a gun legally?


I agree that America has weak ass gun laws I'm not debating that, but the states with the MOST gun control laws tend to have the MOST gun murders. Now, the fact that Texas is also a DEATH PENALTY state could also be a contributing factor to the lower amount of intentional homicides.

There have been more gun related cold blooded homicides in the past year in New York state alone than there have been in the state of Texas in the past 3 years, despite the fact that Texas has a bigger population and looser gun laws

All I have to say is thank fuck I moved out of the US years ago


----------



## birthday_massacre (Jan 30, 2013)

LibertarianAtheist said:


> I agree that America has weak ass gun laws I'm not debating that, but the states with the MOST gun control laws tend to have the MOST gun murders
> 
> There have been more gun related cold blooded homicides in the past year in New York state alone than there have been in the state of Texas in the past 3 years, despite the fact that Texas has a bigger population and looser gun laws
> 
> All I have to say is thank fuck I moved out of the US years ago


That is simply not true.

The states with the stricter gun laws usually have less gun violence.

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics...aws-see-the-fewest-gun-related-deaths/448044/











also

http://america.aljazeera.com/watch/...e-the-highest-gun-death-rates-in-america.html


Nice try though


----------



## LibertarianAtheist (Feb 10, 2014)

birthday_massacre said:


> That is simply not true.
> 
> The states with the stricter gun laws usually have less gun violence.
> 
> ...


Because those stats include SELF DEFENSE killings

SELF DEFENSE KILLINGS ARE NEVER COLD BLOODED MURDER


----------



## birthday_massacre (Jan 30, 2013)

LibertarianAtheist said:


> Because those stats include SELF DEFENSE killings
> 
> SELF DEFENSE KILLINGS ARE NEVER COLD BLOODED MURDER


There are way more murders or gun violence shootings than gun self defenses that wouldn't make a huge impact.

You want to claim that states with lesser gun control have less murders then prove it with stats.

Love how pro gun people like to monkey with the numbers to skew them. Also self defense with a gun vs someone that was using a gun on you should be counted in gun violence so the perp and a gun as well but of course the pro gun crowd wont count those .


The fact is when it comes to gun violence the states with the better gun laws tend to have less gun violence.


----------



## LibertarianAtheist (Feb 10, 2014)

birthday_massacre said:


> There are way more murders or gun violence shootings than gun self defenses that wouldn't make a huge impact.
> 
> You want to claim that states with lesser gun control have less murders then prove it with stats.
> 
> ...


Well, it also includes ACCIDENTAL deaths like guns misfiring, hunting accidents,etc

Guns don't kill people IDIOTS with guns kill people...huge difference.


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## birthday_massacre (Jan 30, 2013)

LibertarianAtheist said:


> Well, it also includes ACCIDENTAL deaths like guns misfiring, hunting accidents,etc
> 
> Guns don't kill people IDIOTS with guns kill people...huge difference.


Yes guns kill people that is what they were made for. 

Keep making excuses because you have zero evidence that states with lesser gun laws have lesser gun violence.

But that is what the pro gun crowd always does.

Even going by homicide rates TX is still way above NY


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## ST1TCH (Aug 6, 2014)

bullshitter said:


> Look the point is there's a number of reasons for why you have mass shootingd in the states so regularly, these include but are not limited to:
> 
> Your actions in the Middle East
> Your incredibly relaxed automatic gun ownership laws
> ...


Logic train time.

Your actions in the Middle East - Really? Because if I remember correctly Europe didn't want to get involved in the Middle East after 9/11, because they feared the backlash of terrorism. And their terrorism problem is worse than that of the US. So, it seems terrorism has nothing to do with the US intervention in the middle east. The correlation between terrorism and the rise in middle eastern refugees is staggering though.

Your incredibly relaxed automatic gun ownership laws - Well, our laws are based off the constitution... So if the numbers of death caused by terrorism in the US were level from 1776 until now, then you're right. Otherwise, there's something else at hand besides what the creators of the US thought was the second most important part of a society.

Your social welfare system and the lack of support for those who need it ie. The poor, marginalised and unstable. - What the hell, the poor in the US live like kings compared to the rest of the world. New cars, new electronics... Hell, the poorest of us get these cards of free money so we never have to go without energy drinks from the gas station. Welfare is more abused than it is necessary.

Your gross wage inequality - There's no such thing as wage inequality. Everybody in the US is born on a level playing field, that's why it's called the land of opportunity and people flock here from around the world (usually illegally). It's a little selfish for someone who decided to work for minimum wage claim wage inequality on someone who has worked their whole life to make their business a success and demand the money be split up equally. I repeat, there's no such thing as wage inequality. Wage envy is a big problem though.

Your terrible healthcare system which again effects the worst off so much more this anyone else - Terrible healthcare? The US leads the world by a massive margin in cures, survival rates, and medical prizes. We are literally (because it's backed up by statistics) the most advanced medial country in the entire world. Our healthcare system has literally made the entire world healthier. Let's nationalize it though, it's time for Polio and smallpox to make a comeback... Ever wonder why Canadians come to America for medical care? 

Stop hating America just because Bernie Sanders says so, he's taking advantage of the stupidity and naivety of the millennial generation to get into office.


----------



## gamegenie (Aug 14, 2011)

Kyle DaCosta said:


> Of course America is accepting of a religion that is anti-homosexuals. The biggest religion in America, Christianity is one of the biggest advocates of it.


Well America after all is built on Christianity as a central faith. 

Look at your history books, trace back to the early settlement period post the Protestant Reformation.


----------



## skypod (Nov 13, 2014)

ST1TCH said:


> Your social welfare system and the lack of support for those who need it ie. The poor, marginalised and unstable. - What the hell, the poor in the US live like kings compared to the rest of the world. New cars, new electronics... Hell, the poorest of us get these cards of free money so we never have to go without energy drinks from the gas station. Welfare is more abused than it is necessary.
> 
> Your gross wage inequality - There's no such thing as wage inequality. Everybody in the US is born on a level playing field, that's why it's called the land of opportunity and people flock here from around the world (usually illegally). It's a little selfish for someone who decided to work for minimum wage claim wage inequality on someone who has worked their whole life to make their business a success and demand the money be split up equally. I repeat, there's no such thing as wage inequality. Wage envy is a big problem though.



So the poor live like kings and everyone is on a level playing field at birth. I guess all that stuff about the 1% of wealth is all lies and doesn't need fixed then.

This post is trying to be so anti-socialism it's unbelieveable. Perhaps growing up without anything and a little understanding of human conditioning, culture and American history would do you a favour.


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## deepelemblues (Sep 26, 2011)

skypod said:


> So the poor live like kings


Compared to like 90% of the rest of the world's population, yup. 



> and everyone is on a level playing field at birth.


Sadly it is not capitalism's fault that some people are born to parents who are shitty people. Having shitty parents is the number one reason by far that the playing field is not level at birth. 



> I guess all that stuff about the 1% of wealth is all lies and doesn't need fixed then.


No it doesn't because there is not a fixed amount of wealth being divided and rich people are not fully responsible for middle and lower class earnings stagnating by any means. 

There definitely is a certain amount of larger wealth redistribution that could be enacted without negative economic effects that would eventually outweigh any positives. The problem is, modern Western redistributionist political parties are out of their minds and want to tax and spend at levels that are completely unsustainable instead of trying for more modest achievements that wouldn't screw their economies down the line and would still help plenty of poor people.



> This post is trying to be so anti-socialism it's unbelieveable. Perhaps growing up without anything and a little understanding of human conditioning, culture and American history would do you a favour.


Socialism has never lifted a single person up out of not having anything without a cost measured in either lakes of human blood or the achievement of equality in mediocrity. Mediocrity of living conditions, mediocrity of abundance, mediocrity of everything.

Capitalism on the other hand has been more successful than any other system at producing widespread results of a nature wherein someone who has nothing or very little manages to reverse his fortunes and gain everything. 

People do not generally become more violent because poverty. People become generally violent when they're starving, or freezing, or being decimated by plague or something. There is a big difference between being poor in a capitalist country and living somewhere where there is not enough food, not enough heat, not enough water, you and everyone you know lives in hovels, the government is a bunch of brutal greedy assholes, you're losing a big war, stuff like that. Stuff like Russia 1917. Or the Eastern Bloc 1989. Or Russia in 1991. Not any country in North America or Europe or plenty of other (capitalist) places in 2016.


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## ST1TCH (Aug 6, 2014)

skypod said:


> So the poor live like kings and everyone is on a level playing field at birth. I guess all that stuff about the 1% of wealth is all lies and doesn't need fixed then.
> 
> This post is trying to be so anti-socialism it's unbelieveable. Perhaps growing up without anything and a little understanding of human conditioning, culture and American history would do you a favour.


I grew up in a low income housing apartment and was raised by a single mother who made less than 30K a year. I have every right to hate the 1% but I realize that those are the people that are offering employment and driving the economy. I'm sorry that people are jealous of business owners and CEO's because they make less money, but they fail to realize that the CEO of Starbucks should make more money than the people grinding the beans.

That's the problem with the left. I don't agree with your views so you paint me as an elitist douchebag instead of accepting that some people don't share the same sense of entitlement.


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## amhlilhaus (Dec 19, 2013)

birthday_massacre said:


> LibertarianAtheist said:
> 
> 
> > Because those stats include SELF DEFENSE killings
> ...


I love hiw anti gun nuts dont address the fact that the sites of gun massacres are GUN FREE ZONES.

And they are, except for criminals


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## Kyle DaCosta (Jun 4, 2016)

> Guns don't kill people IDIOTS with guns kill people...huge difference.


I hate this logic. First of all, guns are unnaturally unsafe. I'm not going fact digging, but I can estimate that there have been millions upon millions of deaths due to just gun accidents. Guns going off by mistake, someone pulling a trigger by accident, etc. These things have happened a copious amount of times. With intent, yes, idiots kill others with guns. However, guns make it so much easier for them to kill people with, especially automatic weapons, which are the weapon of choice for these nutcases. The fatalities at the nightclub would have decreased dramatically if he didn't have a semi-automatic gun and would've decreased to single digits at most if he didn't have a gun period. Guns do kill people, and idiots with guns are allowed to kill a lot more people they could with say a knife.


----------



## FriedTofu (Sep 29, 2014)

ST1TCH said:


> Your actions in the Middle East - Really? Because if I remember correctly Europe didn't want to get involved in the Middle East after 9/11, because they feared the backlash of terrorism. And their terrorism problem is worse than that of the US. So, it seems terrorism has nothing to do with the US intervention in the middle east. The correlation between terrorism and the rise in middle eastern refugees is staggering though.


That's because of Europe's proximity to the middle east.



> Your incredibly relaxed automatic gun ownership laws - Well, our laws are based off the constitution... So if the numbers of death caused by terrorism in the US were level from 1776 until now, then you're right. Otherwise, there's something else at hand besides what the creators of the US thought was the second most important part of a society.


Pretty sure the founders didn't envision semi-automatic guns ownership as more important than preventing unnecessary deaths.



> Your social welfare system and the lack of support for those who need it ie. The poor, marginalised and unstable. - What the hell, the poor in the US live like kings compared to the rest of the world. New cars, new electronics... Hell, the poorest of us get these cards of free money so we never have to go without energy drinks from the gas station. Welfare is more abused than it is necessary.


Have to agree with you here. The problem is costs of living is much higher. The solution should be finding affordable source of food and rent for those who need it, not giving out handouts.


> Your gross wage inequality - There's no such thing as wage inequality. Everybody in the US is born on a level playing field, that's why it's called the land of opportunity and people flock here from around the world (usually illegally). It's a little selfish for someone who decided to work for minimum wage claim wage inequality on someone who has worked their whole life to make their business a success and demand the money be split up equally. I repeat, there's no such thing as wage inequality. Wage envy is a big problem though.


 Ah this is the one that made me reply. There is no denying there is a wage inequality here. The issue isn't minimum wage but the gap in wages between those at the top tier and those in the next tier. There is an issue where CEOs can potentially still get paid more in one year for failing their job than the other employees combined for being competent at theirs. This isn't just an American issue, but in most developed countries. The problem isn't even capitalism vs socialism, but the finance industry overtaking economies, so much so that many of these companies' main source of revenue isn't even fulfilling the role of financing anymore. This has a domino effect on the rest of the economy, and creating a real wage inequality.



> Your terrible healthcare system which again effects the worst off so much more this anyone else - Terrible healthcare? The US leads the world by a massive margin in cures, survival rates, and medical prizes. We are literally (because it's backed up by statistics) the most advanced medial country in the entire world. Our healthcare system has literally made the entire world healthier. Let's nationalize it though, it's time for Polio and smallpox to make a comeback... Ever wonder why Canadians come to America for medical care?


It depends on how you perceive the goal of healthcare is. The best healthcare advancement or providing adequate care to the most citizens. The US certainly isn't leading the world in survival rates. Your life expectancy is one of the lowest among developed countries. You are the most advanced medial country (according to you) yet still spend more based on GDP on healthcare with less coverage among developed countries.



> Stop hating America just because Bernie Sanders says so, he's taking advantage of the stupidity and naivety of the millennial generation to get into office.


Damn, now you reminded me I'm defending something a Bernie Bro is saying. Ack.


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## ST1TCH (Aug 6, 2014)

I really don't have the time to think out a long response so I'll just leave you with this.

The decisions of a CEO affect an entire company and have massive impact on the global economy. They don't get paid to fail they get paid in accordance to the importance of their job and their ability to improve the company. The CEO of Petco's job is a million times more important than the guy feeding the fishes, because if the fish feeders fails to do their job somebody else on the next shift will do it and there is literally zero real world consequence, while if the CEO fails to do their job, millions of people could be out of work, and the world economy would suffer.

If everyone makes the same amount of money then there will be no CEOs just a bunch of fish feeders and a third world economy. I get that capitalism may have "burned you" because you're not running billion dollar industries, but these guys weren't born wealthy, powerful and influential, they worked for it. They certainly didn't whine about other people making more money than them to get there.


Also, never defend a Bernie bro, I've stepped on gum with better logic than them.


----------



## 2 Ton 21 (Dec 28, 2011)

http://kdvr.com/2016/06/14/gun-sales-surge-after-orlando-shooting/



> *Gun sales surge among gays, lesbians after Orlando shooting*
> 
> DENVER -- Gun sales are surging in the wake of Sunday’s deadly mass shooting in Orlando, Fla. The tragedy is generating new debate over gun control reform and the right to bear arms.
> 
> ...


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## Kyle DaCosta (Jun 4, 2016)

> Your gross wage inequality - There's no such thing as wage inequality. Everybody in the US is born on a level playing field, that's why it's called the land of opportunity and people flock here from around the world (usually illegally). It's a little selfish for someone who decided to work for minimum wage claim wage inequality on someone who has worked their whole life to make their business a success and demand the money be split up equally. I repeat, there's no such thing as wage inequality. Wage envy is a big problem though.


Almost 50 percent of America wealth of America is owned by the 1 percent. Take your ill-informed propaganda elsewhere. There is NOTHING equal about America.


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## stevefox1200 (Jul 7, 2009)

Kyle DaCosta said:


> Almost 50 percent of America wealth of America is owned by the 1 percent. Take your ill-informed propaganda elsewhere. There is NOTHING equal about America.


His point is there are nations where one part of the nation owns gold boats and the other part can't afford to eat every day


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## FriedTofu (Sep 29, 2014)

ST1TCH said:


> I really don't have the time to think out a long response so I'll just leave you with this.
> 
> The decisions of a CEO affect an entire company and have massive impact on the global economy. *They don't get paid to fail* they get paid in accordance to the importance of their job and their ability to improve the company. The CEO of Petco's job is a million times more important than the guy feeding the fishes, because if the fish feeders fails to do their job somebody else on the next shift will do it and there is literally zero real world consequence, while if the CEO fails to do their job, millions of people could be out of work, and the world economy would suffer.
> 
> ...


When did I said that? I'm saying their failure don't seem to match the compensation they receive in the event they fail horribly at their job. Executive pay creating wealth inequality is an issue, especially in America. Denying that is ridiculous. Nobody said they don't work hard for it. Just saying many are getting grossly overpaid for the good they do for the company. Some even say the incentives encourage them to choose paths that is harmful to stakeholders in the long run.

Capitalism hasn't burned me, in fact it helped my country go from third world to first world within three decades. But capitalism isn't without its faults, and it is irresponsible not to think of ways to address them while we still can.

Anyway this is going off topic.


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## ManiacMichaelMyers (Oct 23, 2009)

Knew this was bad (all shootings are) but I didn't know how bad until just now. I don't closely follow the news a lot of times though but stumbled on this..and wow.


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## asdf0501 (May 31, 2009)

ST1TCH said:


> Logic train time.
> 
> .....
> 
> ...



Not that the rest of your points have merit (your logic on guns is specially hilarious and your understanding of cost/benefits analysys in medicine is next levels of ignorance) but this point is highly important.

No, there is no such thing of "even field" in America and no, the levels of social mobility has been stagnant for the last 30 years, so there is no such thing as "opportunities" for mobility anymore

Anyway. Just for fun i would left this here










*edit:* Increasing inequality is a big ass problem not just in USA by the way, techonology driven economies would make labor work obsolete. So, if we keep going at this rate there would be a world with guys who posses machines able to do shit and profit of them and then hungry everyone.

Having said this the gap in USA and the rate at which it grows every year is just unreal


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## LibertarianAtheist (Feb 10, 2014)

All I have to say is that I agree with one of my favourite YouTube atheists...



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVrfGga7BUc


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## BigVern (May 23, 2016)

asdf0501 said:


> So, if we keep going at this rate there would be a world with guys who posses machines able to do shit and profit of them and then hungry everyone.


:deanfpalm
I get you, but damn man. I'm more concerned about our illiteracy rates at this point. I've seen better sentences given to college athletes in rape cases.


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## asdf0501 (May 31, 2009)

English is not my first language, sorry for being stupid enough to think people could comprehend


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## BigVern (May 23, 2016)

asdf0501 said:


> English is not my first language, sorry for being stupid enough to think people could comprehend


I said that I understood you, it's just that when you're speaking passionately about an important subject you need to make sure you're being somewhat coherent if you really want to get your point across.


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## birthday_massacre (Jan 30, 2013)

amhlilhaus said:


> I love hiw anti gun nuts dont address the fact that the sites of gun massacres are GUN FREE ZONES.
> 
> And they are, except for criminals


I have addressed and this argument a million times but I love how you always ignore it.

People that do mass shootings pick locations the have connections to , they don't seek out gun free zones. They pick a place they have a beef with. That is why when some kid shootings up a school its usually the school he went to. This FL mass shooting happened at a gay bar because the shooter hated gays. 

Not to mention mass shootings would be even worst in places that allowed guns because if a shooter started shooting up the place, you would have multiple people looking for someone with a gun and start shooting at that person and if a bunch of people started pulling out guns they would be shooting at each other. 

Plus one the police go to a site of a shooting they would are shooting at the so called good guys who pulled out their guns to look for the shooter.

Its a strawman argument that mass shooters seek out gun free zones, that is simply not true in the majority of the cases. They are almost always in a place the shooter has a history with.


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## sesshomaru (Dec 11, 2006)

stevefox1200 said:


> His point is there are nations where one part of the nation owns gold boats and the other part can't afford to eat every day


Yeah well, there's a difference in the "value" of those lives. The man with the gold boat is likely indirectly responsible for hundreds, or even thousands of jobs. Thereby he has an important position befitting of his gold boat.

On the other hand, people that can't afford to feed themselves are likely one of the 7 billion masses, that are easily replaceable and have no significance in regards to other people's livelihoods or the economy.


More important people should be paid more. That's capitalism 101.

Should the Walmart upper management/CEO be making the same as cashiers/stock clerks? I think not. Or even have his wage reduced so the expendable cashiers/stock clerks can be paid more? Why? They're working low-skill labor. They're easily replaceable, so why pay them well?

There's always a plethora of people that didn't go to post-secondary, and aren't particularly intelligent, so there will always be bodies to do low-skilled labor.


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## birthday_massacre (Jan 30, 2013)

sesshomaru said:


> Yeah well, there's a difference in the "value" of those lives. The man with the gold boat is likely indirectly responsible for hundreds, or even thousands of jobs. Thereby he has an important position befitting of his gold boat.
> 
> *On the other hand, people that can't afford to feed themselves are likely one of the 7 billion masses, that are easily replaceable and have no significance in regards to other people's livelihoods or the economy.*
> 
> ...


Except those are the people that do all those jobs that no one wants to do, ilke farming, or janitors, or other jobs that some people look down upon. And the shitty thing is these jobs dont want shit but they take them because they need something.

If all those people stopped talking those jobs, the economy would be screwed. 

Anyone who is working a 40 hour job should be making a wage that they can live on. A cashier who is working 40 hours a week should be making $15 an hour, not minimum wage which no one can live on.

Also no one has ever said the CEO of Wal mark or an upper management should be making the same as a cashier or stock person but those cashiers and stock persons shouldn't be taken advantage of and should be able to earn a living wage.

Paying them more would stimulate the economy because they would have disposable income to be able to put back into economy. 
the more money the middle and lower class earn the more they will spend and the better the economy will do.


Those people do have major significance.


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## sesshomaru (Dec 11, 2006)

birthday_massacre said:


> Except those are the people that do all those jobs that no one wants to do, ilke farming, or janitors, or other jobs that some people look down upon. And the shitty thing is these jobs dont want shit but they take them because they need something.
> 
> If all those people stopped talking those jobs, the economy would be screwed.
> 
> ...


An arbitrary $15/hr minimum wage just means that companies will (in the short term) just cut staffing (aka 6 cashiers instead of 8 during peak hours)to save money, meaning that LESS PEOPLE WILL BE ABLE TO FIND LOW-SKILLED LABOR (a job is better than no job!!!!). This also means that being a cashier or whatever will be more stressful since you'll be running understaffed. Furthermore, these jobs will eventually be automated, and making the minimum wage too high will only accelerate that process.

Do realize that low-skilled workers can't/won't just say "well the minimum wage sucks and I can't live on it, so I'll just go to University and be a Doctor instead). No, they'll instead get a second part time job to supplement their wage. That's still better than having no job because companies cut staff due to the minimum wage being too high!!!

Also minimum wage workers are not the middle class. They're mostly people that for whatever reason didn't get educated. For adults, it's a minority. That's why lots of illegal immigrants work low-skilled labor, since American citizens generally have the opportunity to get educated and find higher-paying work. Most American adults don't work minimum wage, and for the illigal immigrants, they're getting paid better than they would've in Mexico anyway.


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## birthday_massacre (Jan 30, 2013)

sesshomaru said:


> An arbitrary $15/hr minimum wage just means that companies will (in the short term) just cut staffing (aka 6 cashiers instead of 8 during peak hours)to save money, meaning that LESS PEOPLE WILL BE ABLE TO FIND LOW-SKILLED LABOR (a job is better than no job!!!!). This also means that being a cashier or whatever will be more stressful since you'll be running understaffed. Furthermore, these jobs will eventually be automated, and making the minimum wage too high will only accelerate that process.
> 
> Do realize that low-skilled workers can't/won't just say "well the minimum wage sucks and I can't live on it, so I'll just go to University and be a Doctor instead). No, they'll instead get a second part time job to supplement their wage. That's still better than having no job because companies cut staff due to the minimum wage being too high!!!
> 
> Also minimum wage workers are not the middle class. They're mostly people that for whatever reason didn't get educated. For adults, it's a minority. That's why lots of illegal immigrants work low-skilled labor, since American citizens generally have the opportunity to get educated and find higher-paying work. Most American adults don't work minimum wage, and for the illigal immigrants, they're getting paid better than they would've in Mexico anyway.



In the long term those companies will have to hire more people since their stores will be busier since more people will have more disposable incomes. Plus companies are laying off people all the time so it wouldn't be any different. 

Stores like walmart base coverage on how busy the store is. So if they were super busy they would be forced to keep 8 cashiers and not 6. 

person shouldn't have to work 60 hours a week to just get by to pay their bills. 

Its simply not true anymore that minimum wage workers are not the middle class, that was true decades ago but not anymore. If you are working 35-40 hours a week (full time job) you shouldn't be making less than $15 an hour. 

You can go look on any job board and see a ton of entry level jobs paying just 8-10 an hour to start, and a lot of those are asking for a college degree.

WE are not just talking about low skilled workers here we are also talking about kids out of college and even people who have been laid off from work and looking for a new job. 

those people shouldn't be making $8-10 an hour and not be able to support themselves.


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## Reaper (Sep 4, 2013)

*Re: Florida Gay Bar shot up: 59 Dead. Another 50 or so Wounded*



DesolationRow said:


> We live in a funhouse version of reality. The U.S. has, for decades, strengthened and supported the rise of militant Islamism from Afghanistan to Pakistan to Kosovo to Iraq, et. al., has had an open-door policy vis-à-vis immigration (and is almost militantly arguing on behalf the continuation of Europe's open border processing for migrants, exhibiting rage toward countries such as Hungary and Poland that do not wish to follow suit), all while engaging in wasteful, ruinous wars that have created wreckage-besot, anarchic arenas of mayhem like Iraq, Libya and, as much as the U.S. can, Syria, but on the home front political correctness must rule the day.


I just want to point out that it's not political correctness so much as having no true practical method of immigration control except complete isolationism or racial and religious profiling. 

The problem with isolationism is discrimination of existing citizens (which has absolutely nothing to do with political correctness) who have family abroad, or fall in love with foreigners and cannot leave America for their own safety. 

Are you going to deny people like my wife who is a born and raised American woman a chance to marry someone just because he happens to be born in a country that's in a red flag zone? There is no solution to this except vetting the individual as best as they can -- and in my case they did. I went through a series of full background checks, including finger-printing, FBI and contact between the Canadian and American intelligence agencies. I don't know if they contacted Pakistan or not. 

However, the point is .. I'm an ex-Muslim current atheist who wanted to marry out of love and move to the states to be with her and my first name was Mohammad on my application papers. Denying my immigration is basically the same as discriminating a current US Citizen - and it's not fair to her. I'm also on a probationary conditional residence status where I will have to go through a third series of checks in order to become a fill citizen. We had to put together a file of over 6 different applications, marriage photos, family and colleague affidavits, facebook pictures, love letters, gift receipts, holidays together etc etc and a 45 minute interview where they even asked us about our sex life before I got my immigration. 

If you look at immigration numbers, the only unlimited immigration visas America has (the economic and other migrant visas are grossly limited) are for re-uniting families (husband, wife and children) and fiances only on the guarantee of marriage. It's not a free-for-all open system. It's very closed and very restrictive.


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## ThirtyYearFan (Apr 26, 2012)

nucklehead88 said:


> So heres the question....what amendment are you willing to give up first....freedom of religion or freedom to bear arms. Amendment number 1 or Amendment number 2. Make your pick. Because if Trumps plan goes into play, bye bye to the first amendment. From the ideas in this thread, someone is losing a right.


Actually, there is a common misconception here that a ban would be a violation of the Constitution. The fact is that the President does have statutory authority granted by Congress to prohibit or exclude certain classes of immigrants if he feels that it is in the best interest and safety of the American citizenry. In fact the courts including the Supreme Court have reinforced this authority in various cases. The authority is the Immigration and Nationality Act of 1952. Thus, a temporary ban of immigrants who wish to emigrate to the United States from countries that have terrorist activity or ties would technically be lawful.


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## birthday_massacre (Jan 30, 2013)

ThirtyYearFan said:


> Actually, there is a common misconception here that a ban would be a violation of the Constitution. The fact is that the president does have statutory authority granted by Congress to prohibit or exclude certain classes of immigrants if he feels that it is in the best interest and safety of the American citizenry. In fact the courts including the Supreme Court have reinforced this authority in various cases. The authority is the Immigration and Nationality Act of 1952/U]. Thus, a temporary ban of immigrants who wish to emigrate to the United States from countries that have terrorist activity or ties would technically be lawful.




That is not correct. They can't ban a group based on their religion.


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## ThirtyYearFan (Apr 26, 2012)

birthday_massacre said:


> That is not correct. They can't ban a group based on their religion.


Then please cite a Supreme Court ruling that counters my premise. The fact is that in matters of immigration that Congress has plenary powers and the courts are hesitant to adjudicate policy on immigration matters. I think hypothetically if Trump were to be elected and enact a Muslim ban that he would base it off national origin to include states that harbor or have known terrorist activity. He would be perfectly within his statutory authority to enact such a ban. As recently as 1979, Jimmy Carter enacted a ban on Iranians. Recently, Democrats in Congress have introduced legislation that would prohibit a President from barring Muslims into the United States. Thus, it is established that the President counter to the thinking of the mainstream media or many people does have powers to restrict immigration.


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## birthday_massacre (Jan 30, 2013)

ThirtyYearFan said:


> Then please cite a Supreme Court ruling that counters my premise. The fact is that in matters of immigration that Congress has plenary powers and the courts are hesitant to adjudicate policy on immigration matters. I think hypothetically if Trump were to be elected and enact a Muslim ban that he would base it off national origin to include states that harbor or have known terrorist activity. He would be perfectly within his statutory authority to enact such a ban. As recently as 1979, Jimmy Carter enacted a ban on Iranians. Recently, Democrats in Congress have introduced legislation that would prohibit a President from barring Muslims into the United States. Thus, it is established that the President counter to the thinking of the mainstream media or many people does have powers to restrict immigration.


http://www.nbcnews.com/politics/201...-weigh-donald-trumps-plan-ban-muslims-n476041

"I believe Trump's unprecedented proposal would violate our Constitution," said Harvard Law Professor Laurence Tribe. "Both the First Amendment's Religion Clauses and the equality dimension of the Due Process Clause of the Fifth Amendment."

PlayWill Trump's comments on Muslims help or hurt his campaign? Facebook Twitter Google PlusEmbed
Will Trump's comments on Muslims help or hurt his campaign? 3:45
Tribe, a constitutional law expert, said Trump's proposal also conflicts with the Constitution's general prohibition on religious tests outside of the immigration context. "It would also conflict with the spirit of the No Religious Test Clause of Article VI," Tribe told MSNBC Monday evening.

Beyond the law, Tribe said it was also notable that using religious discrimination for immigration would be "impossible to administer" and "stupidly play into the hands of extreme Islamic terrorists."

Related: Trump Digs in Heels on 'Total' Muslim Ban

In the modern era, federal immigration law has generally cited religion to protect and welcome refugees facing religious discrimination by other countries — not to advance discrimination by the U.S. In 1980, for example, Congress passed an amendment to the Immigration and Nationality Act to protect some potential refugees facing "fear of persecution" on account of their "religion," among other factors.

Earlier in the 20th Century, Congress did set immigration limits based on what are now considered suspect classes, such as excluding immigrants based on race or national origin. Congress repealed racial quotas in 1952, and eliminated quotas based on national origin, which had been in force since the 1920s, in 1965.

Related: Candidates Come Out Against Trump Anti-Muslim Plan

As a matter of federal law, Trump's call to insert religious discrimination into national immigration policy would hark back to policies repealed many decades ago.

Cornell Law professor Michael Dorf said that while U.S. policy "routinely applies different immigration rules for nationals of different countries," Trump's proposal to only exclude "foreign nationals who are Muslim" would likely be "unconstitutional."



---

The rule you keep citing is for banning immigrants based on their country, you can't do it based on religion.


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## Reaper (Sep 4, 2013)

ThirtyYearFan said:


> Then please cite a Supreme Court ruling that counters my premise. The fact is that in matters of immigration that Congress has plenary powers and the courts are hesitant to adjudicate policy on immigration matters. I think hypothetically if Trump were to be elected and enact a Muslim ban that he would base it off national origin to include states that harbor or have known terrorist activity. He would be perfectly within his statutory authority to enact such a ban. As recently as 1979, Jimmy Carter enacted a ban on Iranians. Recently, Democrats in Congress have introduced legislation that would prohibit a President from barring Muslims into the United States. Thus, it is established that the President counter to the thinking of the mainstream media or many people does have powers to restrict immigration.


How do you determine someone is a muslim? My first name was Mohammad. I'm an atheist. How do you know for sure that I am an atheist?


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## birthday_massacre (Jan 30, 2013)

Reaper said:


> How do you determine someone is a muslim? My first name was Mohammad. I'm an atheist. How do you know for sure that I am an atheist?


Not to mention, if you are terrorist, they would just lie and claim they are not Muslim and they would get into the country. That is why the only banning of Muslims thing is stupid.


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## ThirtyYearFan (Apr 26, 2012)

birthday_massacre said:


> http://www.nbcnews.com/politics/201...-weigh-donald-trumps-plan-ban-muslims-n476041
> 
> "I believe Trump's unprecedented proposal would violate our Constitution," said Harvard Law Professor Laurence Tribe. "Both the First Amendment's Religion Clauses and the equality dimension of the Due Process Clause of the Fifth Amendment."
> 
> ...


You gave me opinions from what are likely liberal progressive professors and not actual case law. Again, Trump would likely base a ban on national origin where there would be no controversy but perfectly legal under established law. Besides, it would be not practical to just enact a generic ban on the basis of one being Muslim because it would be too vague. 

One thing to keep in mind is that one purpose of the law allowing the President to ban entrance at that time was to keep those of Communist ideology out. One could make the argument that ideology is protected by the First Amendment also besides religion. Therefore, in one way it could be stated that the First Amendment is not in play in this law especially considering that Congress has plenary immigration authority. (Although to be fair at the time it was a concern that allowing Communistic immigration would be possibly detrimental if such immigrants penetrated into the government or tried to spread their ideals among the American populace.) 

Lastly, it could be argued that potential immigrants who are not US citizens and technically not in a US jurisdiction also are not technically afforded or guaranteed Constitutional rights yet to begin with.


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## Reaper (Sep 4, 2013)

birthday_massacre said:


> Not to mention, if you are terrorist, they would just lie and claim they are not Muslim and they would get into the country. That is why the only banning of Muslims thing is stupid.


This awfully sounds like "But if they ban guns, terrorists will still be able to buy guns"  

Seriously though, let these Trumpsters answer the question. 

How do you determine someone is a Muslim? Color of their skin? Country of Origin? Amount of facial hair? Whether they wear scarves (btw, majority hindu women also cover their heads)? 

What? How? Let the Trumpsters weigh in and once for all tell us exactly HOW they plan on instituting this "Muslim" ban. What about white Muslims? Are they banned too? Or what about Shaquille O' Neil? Is he banned too? Or does he get a pass because he might be one of the president's "personal friends". 

I've been thinking about this ever since their beloved presidential nominee came up with his brilliant plan about how he actually plans on enacting it and making it actually work.


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## Miss Sally (Jul 14, 2014)

While not a huge fan of him, in this video he speaks a lot of truth tho he does get Trump's stance wrong but that's not the point of the video. The video calls for better gun control ie if you're on the watchlist or have been you shouldn't get a gun and he has criticism for Islam. I wholeheartedly agree with this, Islam should not fall under some protection from criticism. Christianity gets roasted and rightfully so, people shouldn't be censored for sharing their thoughts on the matter.


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## ThirtyYearFan (Apr 26, 2012)

Reaper said:


> How do you determine someone is a muslim? My first name was Mohammad. I'm an atheist. How do you know for sure that I am an atheist?


It would hypothetically likely be a total ban based off of country of origin. I totally agree that a ban on religion itself would be too vague.


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## birthday_massacre (Jan 30, 2013)

Reaper said:


> This awfully sounds like "But if they ban guns, terrorists will still be able to buy guns"
> 
> Seriously though, let these Trumpsters answer the question.
> 
> ...


No it doesn't because you can't lie oh this isnt a gun even though it is really a gun.

the only way you can determine if someone is a Muslim is by asking them since it's a religion. Plus what if the person was born into the religion but does not practice. 

And like I said what is to stop someone from lying and claiming they are not Muslim? Trump fans can't answer this simple question how they could tell.





ThirtyYearFan said:


> It would hypothetically likely be a total ban based off of country of origin. I totally agree that a ban on religion itself would be too vague.


So you are not banning based on religion then, you are banning the country of origin which is perfectly legal under that law you cited.


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## Reaper (Sep 4, 2013)

ThirtyYearFan said:


> It would hypothetically likely be a total ban based off of country of origin. I totally agree that a ban on religion itself would be too vague.


You can't do that. What about the atheists, christians and other minorities from that country? You ban them too? 

What about existing family members of current non-muslim American citizens? So basically, American citizens that happen to have muslim family and friends are no longer free and their freedoms should be taken away too? 

What about people like me who have an American wife and Muslim parents? I can never see my parents again? This isn't freedom. This is repressing of the rights of American citizens. 

Especially considering that 99% of the time you're talking about "freedoms" of American citizens. Sounds like you only care about the freedoms you specifically choose for them and that sounds tyrannical to me.


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## ThirtyYearFan (Apr 26, 2012)

Reaper said:


> You can't do that. What about the atheists, christians and other minorities from that country? You ban them too?
> 
> What about existing family members of current non-muslim American citizens? So basically, American citizens that happen to have muslim family and friends are no longer free and their freedoms should be taken away too?
> 
> What about people like me who have an American wife and Muslim parents? I can never see my parents again? Fuck you and everyone that thinks like you if you think that this is "freedom". Especially considering that 99% of the time you're talking about "freedoms" of American citizens. Sounds like you only care about the freedoms you specifically choose for them and that sounds tyrannical to me.


What do you mean he can't do that. The President has the full force of federal law to ban entry of potential immigrants to those he feels would be counter to the best interests or safety of American citizens. This law does not apply to those who are already US citizens.


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## Reaper (Sep 4, 2013)

ThirtyYearFan said:


> What do you mean he can't do that. The President has the full force of federal law to ban entry of potential immigrants to those he feels would be counter to the best interests or safety of American citizens. This law does not apply to those who are already US citizens.


OMG. You can't even fucking think for a second that under Trump's idiotic Muslim ban thing that everyone that is ALREADY a US Citizen that has any Muslim family anywhere won't be able to be re-united with their families. 

How is that not suppression of freedom of existing American citizens? fpalm

Keeping people away from their families because of their religion is even worse than some of the worst shit that happens in Saudi Arabia. Where the fuck is your ability to see what freedom is?


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## birthday_massacre (Jan 30, 2013)

Reaper said:


> OMG. You can't even fucking think for a second that under Trump's idiotic Muslim ban thing that everyone that is ALREADY a US Citizen that has any Muslim family anywhere won't be able to be re-united with their families.
> 
> How is that not suppression of freedom of existing American citizens? fpalm
> 
> Keeping people away from their families because of their religion is even worse than some of the worst shit that happens in Saudi Arabia. Where the fuck is your ability to see what freedom is?


IF Trump had his way he would bomb those muslim families. Remember he said he would bomb the families of muslim terrorist.


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## ThirtyYearFan (Apr 26, 2012)

Reaper said:


> OMG. You can't even fucking think for a second that under Trump's idiotic Muslim ban thing that everyone that is ALREADY a US Citizen that has any Muslim family anywhere won't be able to be re-united with their families.
> 
> How is that not suppression of freedom of existing American citizens? fpalm


I understand your premise. However, what actual Constitutional right or law states that a US citizen has had their rights suppressed under such an action. There is no question that such a ban would cause emotional complexity. However, laws are not emotionally driven and one of the jobs of the Executive is to protect the best interests of the American populace as he sees fit within the parameters of the law. I don't think that anyone with any sense of logic, common sense or a brain is saying that this hypothetical order would be totally free of emotional hardship and that innocent people would be unfairly affected. 

The reality is that the Executive has to look out for the overall common best interests of the citizenry as a whole. That is actually an implied Constitutional obligation.


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## birthday_massacre (Jan 30, 2013)

ThirtyYearFan said:


> I understand your premise. However, what actual Constitutional right or law states that a US citizen has had their rights suppressed under such an action. There is no question that such a ban would cause emotional complexity. However, laws are not emotionally driven and one of the jobs of the Executive is to protect the best interests of the American populace as he sees fit within the parameters of the law. I don't think that anyone with any sense of logic, common sense or a brain is saying that this hypothetical order would be totally free of emotional hardship and yes the innocent people would be unfairly affected. Also, it should be repeated again that such a ban would be temporary.



The reality is that the Executive has to look out for the overall common best interests of the citizenry as a whole. That is actually an implied Constitutional obligation.

I find it ironic how the right ok with banning of innocent muslims when trying to stop the bad ones from getting into the country yet they are so against making stricter gun laws because they claim oh it will effect the good gun owners.

They hypocrisy of the right always amuses me.

And if the reality is that the Executive has to look out for the overall common best interests of the citizenry as a whole then why can't guns be banned since it would make less people die from guns every year?


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## Reaper (Sep 4, 2013)

ThirtyYearFan said:


> I understand your premise. However, what actual Constitutional right or law states that a US citizen has had their rights suppressed under such an action. There is no question that such a ban would cause emotional complexity. However, laws are not emotionally driven and one of the jobs of the Executive is to protect the best interests of the American populace as he sees fit within the parameters of the law. I don't think that anyone with any sense of logic, common sense or a brain is saying that this hypothetical order would be totally free of emotional hardship and yes the innocent people would be unfairly affected. Also, it should be repeated again that such a ban would be temporary.


Wow, talk about welcoming a dystopian law with welcome arms. Of course you'd downplay this because obviously it doesn't personally affect you. How about a dystopian law that comes in and takes away your guns. Don't talk to me about logic when you're willing to break up potentially millions of American families and downplay the impact it will have on those families. What a fucking joke of an argument. 

It would "cause emotional complexity" .. That's what you think it would cause? The fucking government is basically stepping in and breaking up families by telling them that they can't be together whenever they want ... and you think that "it's just gonna cause emotional complexity" ... Wow. 

How about I impose a ban on white boys from going to school because the majority of school shootings are done by white boys ..? And then turn around and say "oh well, sorry for your emotional hardship. But it's ok because a few innocents can suffer for the greater good". 

Bullshit. You can't support freedom and then allow a law that takes away freedoms at the same time. That's called being a hypocrite.


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## birthday_massacre (Jan 30, 2013)

Reaper said:


> Wow, talk about welcoming a dystopian law with welcome arms. Of course you'd downplay this because obviously it doesn't personally affect you. How about a dystopian law that comes in and takes away your guns. Don't talk to me about logic when you're willing to break up potentially millions of American families and downplay the impact it will have on those families. What a fucking joke of an argument.
> 
> It would "cause emotional complexity" .. That's what you think it would cause? The fucking government is basically stepping in and breaking up families by telling them that they can't be together whenever they want ... and you think that "it's just gonna cause emotional complexity" ... Wow. How about I impose an aribitrary ban on white boys from going to school because the majority of school shootings are done by white boys ..? And then turn around and say "oh well, sorry for your emotional hardship".
> 
> Bullshit. You can't support freedom and then allow a law that takes away freedoms at the same time. That's called being a hypocrite.


If you swapped out Christian for Muslim, the right would NEVER say oh all Christians should be banned from coming into the country. That would never happen.


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## BigVern (May 23, 2016)

Reaper said:


> OMG. You can't even fucking think for a second that under Trump's idiotic Muslim ban thing that everyone that is ALREADY a US Citizen that has any Muslim family anywhere won't be able to be re-united with their families.
> 
> How is that not suppression of freedom of existing American citizens? fpalm
> 
> Keeping people away from their families because of their religion is even worse than some of the worst shit that happens in Saudi Arabia. Where the fuck is your ability to see what freedom is?


OMG. You can't even fucking think for a second. Period. The fear of the ignorant is far,* far* more powerful than the freedom of a minority. Look at what happened to first, second and even third generation Asian-Americans after Pearl Harbor.


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## Reaper (Sep 4, 2013)

birthday_massacre said:


> If you swapped out Christian for Muslim, the right would NEVER say oh all Christians should be banned from coming into the country. That would never happen.


Yeah. Let's ban all Americans from owning dogs because a few dogs mauled some children while we're at it too.


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## ThirtyYearFan (Apr 26, 2012)

birthday_massacre said:


> The reality is that the Executive has to look out for the overall common best interests of the citizenry as a whole. That is actually an implied Constitutional obligation.
> 
> I find it ironic how the right ok with banning of innocent muslims when trying to stop the bad ones from getting into the country yet they are so against making stricter gun laws because they claim oh it will effect the good gun owners.
> 
> ...


Big difference. The 2nd Amendment is a Constitutional right afforded to US citizens; however the privilege of immigrating to the United States is not a Constitutional right that anyone anywhere in the world has a right to. You are comparing a right afforded to US citizens in the 2nd Amendment to a subject in immigration that Congress sets forth the rules for. Congress could halt any legal immigration into the US if they so legislated but they have to work around and try to be in compliance with the 2nd Amendment for any gun control measure statute.

Lastly, the President does not make laws. He can only issue gun control executive orders that fit within the framework of established law and even his EOs are subject to court scrutiny or override from Congress if Congress clarifies a law that would conflict with an EO. 

A President banning immigrants based off of safety concerns is acting within full authority of the law whereas gun control policies have to be based off of existing law and tip toed around for lack of a better term.


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## BigVern (May 23, 2016)

*delete


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## birthday_massacre (Jan 30, 2013)

ThirtyYearFan said:


> Big difference. The 2nd Amendment is a Constitutional right afforded to US citizens; however the privilege of immigrating to the United States is not a Constitutional right that anyone anywhere in the world has a right to. You are comparing a right afforded to US citizens in the 2nd Amendment to a subject in immigration that Congress sets forth the rules for. Congress could halt any legal immigration into the US if they so legislated but they have to work around and try to be in compliance with the 2nd Amendment for any gun control measure statute.
> 
> Lastly, the President does not make laws. He can only issue gun control executive orders that fit within the framework of established law and even his EOs are subject to court scrutiny or override from Congress if Congress clarifies a law that would conflict with an EO.
> 
> A President banning immigrants based off of safety concerns is acting within full authority of the law whereas gun control policies have to be based off of existing law and tip toed around for lack of a better term.


Its not a big difference its the same principle. Banning something to "keep america safe". But of course the hypocrisy continues. Its in the constitution that you can't discriminate based on someones religion. But of course you ignore that one dont you.

There is a huge safety concern when it comes to guns so using your logic they should be banned



Also just curious do you think that grenades should be able to be legally purchased by the public?


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## Reaper (Sep 4, 2013)

BigVern said:


> OMG. You can't even fucking think for a second. Period. The fear of the ignorant is far,* far* more powerful than the freedom of a minority. Look at what happened to first, second and even third generation Asian-Americans after Pearl Harbor.


"Oh well, it just caused a little emotional complexity and it's ok if the innocent suffer for the peace of mind of the majority."

This thread has devolved into "It's constitutional to rip families apart, but taking away my guns is unconstitutional."


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## birthday_massacre (Jan 30, 2013)

Reaper said:


> "Oh well, it just caused a little emotional complexity and it's ok if the innocent suffer for the peace of mind of the majority."
> 
> This thread has devolved into "It's constitutional to rip families apart, but taking away my guns is unconstitutional."


Funny how the "it's ok if the innocent suffer for the peace of mind of the majority." doesn't count when it comes to guns.


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## Reaper (Sep 4, 2013)

birthday_massacre said:


> Funny how the "it's ok if the innocent suffer for the peace of mind of the majority." doesn't count when it comes to guns.


It sickens me to think that we're living in an America where people are now seriously entertaining the idea of separating American families based on what they believe in and where they live ... And what's even worse is that they're the ones claiming to have the higher moral ground as well.

"Emotional complexity" my fucking ass. 

How would this Thirtyyearoldfan guy feel if he has a fucking child in America and the child's grandmother can't visit because she happens to live in one of the banned countries. Fucking bullshit. Or if his wife dies and his mother and father can't visit because they happen to be Muslim. But of course, it's easy to shit on the lives of minorities when you're not one of them and nothing of the sort personally affects you.

And this is the same guy that will defend the right to own a gun with his life because that's an issue that effects him personally. I'm not anti-gun or pro-gun ban btw. I'm just saying how much ones priorities are fucked up when they're ok with tearing american families apart just because it doesn't personally effect them ..


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## ThirtyYearFan (Apr 26, 2012)

birthday_massacre said:


> Its not a big difference its the same principle. Banning something to "keep america safe". But of course the hypocrisy continues. Its in the constitution that you can't discriminate based on someones religion. But of course you ignore that one dont you.
> 
> There is a huge safety concern when it comes to guns so using your logic they should be banned
> 
> ...


First of all under what legal mechanism can the President ban guns??? We do know that the President does have the legal mechanism to ban immigration entry to those he feels might create a safety issue for the public. Unless we are in a declared state or war and/or habeas corpus has been suspended then the President carries out national security matters in accordance with the Constitution and federal law. Thus why in the immigration case he can legally act whereas in the gun control case he is restricted by federal law to act.

Secondly, a person who is not a US citizen and not in a US jurisdiction is not protected or afforded Constitutional rights. A person anywhere in the world does not have a Constitutional right to emigrate to the United States. The US just like any other sovereign nation in the world has a right to set its own immigration laws and policies. And in the United States Congress has plenary authority to set immigration law. 

Lastly, I do not think that hand grenades should be available for legal purchase by the public.


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## birthday_massacre (Jan 30, 2013)

ThirtyYearFan said:


> First of all under what legal mechanism can the President ban guns??? We do know that the President does have the legal mechanism to ban immigration entry to those he feels might create a safety issue for the public. Unless we are in a declared state or war and/or habeas corpus has been suspended then the President carries out national security matters in accordance with the Constitution and federal law. Thus why in the immigration case he can legally act whereas in the gun control case he is restricted by federal law to act.
> 
> Secondly, a person who is not a US citizen and not in a US jurisdiction is not protected or afforded Constitutional rights. A person anywhere in the world does not have a Constitutional right to emigrate to the United States. The US just like any other sovereign nation in the world has a right to set its own immigration laws and policies. And in the United States Congress has plenary authority to set immigration law.
> 
> Lastly, I do not think that hand grenades should be available for legal purchase by the public.


Why shouldn't hand grenades should be available for legal purchase by the public? They are arms and under the 2nd amendment the people of the US are supposed to keep and bare arms. 

So you are ok with banning one type of arms but not another ?

Gotcha


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## stevefox1200 (Jul 7, 2009)

I hate these topics

My main man Edward R Murrow said that "if we dig deep in our history and our doctrine, and remember that we are not descended from fearful men — not from men who feared to write, to speak, to associate and to defend causes that were, for the moment, unpopular."

Why are we looking for "solutions" that involve giving up basic rights that have existed for over 200 years 

Don't change immigration or guns policy and work as hard as possible to catch people before they cause problems

will there be attacks? yes, but these attacks are to make us feel fear, to show us that our "corrupt culture" can't handle the heat and everyone will turn on each other 

and when these attacks come and they see that we are not giving into fear and not giving into paranoia while they sleep in caves and hide from shadows in the sky perhaps some of those people who may have thought otherwise will decide that radicals are not the horse to back


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## ST1TCH (Aug 6, 2014)

asdf0501 said:


> Not that the rest of your points have merit (your logic on guns is specially hilarious and your understanding of cost/benefits analysys in medicine is next levels of ignorance) but this point is highly important.
> 
> No, there is no such thing of "even field" in America and no, the levels of social mobility has been stagnant for the last 30 years, so there is no such thing as "opportunities" for mobility anymore
> 
> ...


You know what will really light a fire up under the asses of employers anc companies to switch to machine labor? 

Raising minimum wage, raising taxes for companies and the wealthy, putting blocks on taking parts of your company overseas...

All are proposed leftist strategies for closing the wage gap, but also are guaranteed ways to increase the wage gap. In fact it's basically Bernie Sanders' life work. Logic escapes his supporters, but not him. In fact, he wants the wage gap to grow, despite what he will lead everyone to believe. He has actually gone on record saying that he thinks programs like bread lines (you know, the thing from the Great Depression where the government determined that it's people only got to consume the minimum every day) are great for America.

I'd rather have a fridge full of food and a wealthy class in a capitalist society than a bread line and a ruling class in a socialist society.


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## ST1TCH (Aug 6, 2014)

I would also take a study seriously if it were done more recently than the mid 90s. We've gone through wars, recessions, and booms in the economy since then. The last 15-20 years have been the most unpredictable and volatile in the history of the market, for better or worse.


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## CamillePunk (Feb 10, 2011)

Reaper said:


> OMG. You can't even fucking think for a second that under Trump's idiotic Muslim ban thing that everyone that is ALREADY a US Citizen that has any Muslim family anywhere won't be able to be re-united with their families.
> 
> How is that not suppression of freedom of existing American citizens? fpalm
> 
> Keeping people away from their families because of their religion is even worse than some of the worst shit that happens in Saudi Arabia. Where the fuck is your ability to see what freedom is?


:lol What the fuck are you on about right now? US citizens don't have the right to import their non-American relatives. They have to go through a legal process, and if they fit a class of people the president has constitutionally decided not to let into the country, then tough shit for them. You have complete freedom to leave the country and go be with your relatives if that's what you want. Nobody's keeping you away from anyone.


Reaper said:


> It sickens me to think that we're living in an America where people are now seriously entertaining the idea of separating American families based on what they believe in and where they live ... And what's even worse is that they're the ones claiming to have the higher moral ground as well.
> 
> "Emotional complexity" my fucking ass.
> 
> ...


fpalm NOBODY IS SEPARATING YOU. You don't HAVE to live here. You chose to separate when you left your family behind in another country, and they chose to separate when they didn't come with you. You made CHOICES. Bear the responsibility and stop with the emotional whining already.


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## Reaper (Sep 4, 2013)

CamillePunk said:


> :lol What the fuck are you on about right now? US citizens don't have the right to import their non-American relatives. They have to go through a legal process, and if they fit a class of people the president has constitutionally decided not to let into the country, then tough shit for them. You have complete freedom to leave the country and go be with your relatives if that's what you want. Nobody's keeping you away from anyone.fpalm NOBODY IS SEPARATING YOU. You don't HAVE to live here. You chose to separate when you left your family behind in another country, and they chose to separate when they didn't come with you. You made CHOICES. Bear the responsibility and stop with the emotional whining already.


Oh I knew you'd come in to white knight for Trump. 

Of course US Citizens have the innate right to import people they love and are their families into American. They can be restricted (which they are through a very rigorous system), but when it comes to marriage and love how dare you or anyone even attempt to deprive someone of their right to a happy future life with someone they fell in love with regardless of where that person is from? The choice to separate is essentially the same choice as it is to separate from someone who's in Texas to go live with someone in New York. That separation does not mean that the government should come down with whatever bullshit xenophobic crap shoot law they want to enforce the separation at all. This is a BIG INTERFERING GOVERNMENT ideology - something that you've started supporting blindly because you're now a blind Trump follower. A year ago you were anti-government interference. BUt now that it suits your personal agenda, you're all for maximum government interference. Freaking hypocrite. 

They also have the right to be visited by their loved ones and the loved ones of their spouses whether they are Muslim, Christian, Hindu or whatever. A ban on anyone until and unless it is justifiable based on individual checks is discriminatory for the US Citizen. 

Also, who are you to endanger a US citizen's life by forcing them to have to visit their family and loved ones abroad in countries where they are not safe. People fall in love and move for each other all over the world. That is not a separation of family because they can travel whenever they choose to. Forced separation is putting any kind of ban on the families getting together in the home country of the citizen. 

For someone so banking on making Americans safe and supposedly happy this policy does nothing to make it as such. There's millions of Americans with Muslim families and millions of Americans that are not muslims themselves but have muslim families. 

The muslim ban extends not only to immigration but also visits ---- Which if you actually knew ANYTHING at all about the visit visa system and how difficult it is to already get one from Muslim countries you wouldn't even be having this conversation. *You know nothing about immigration and it's a topic you love to talk about* from my experience ... but of course, since this doesn't fucking effect you or your family at all, you'll just go ahead and support it because you don't actually give a shit about Americans, but rather having your personal xenophobia enforced. 

You know you love to shit on the "false empathy" of liberals, but here you're doing the exact same thing. You don't actually give a fuck about the rights of American citizens. You want certain rights taken away because those rights are the ones you personally don't believe they have.


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## CamillePunk (Feb 10, 2011)

Reaper said:


> Oh I knew you'd come in to white knight for Trump.


It's not about Trump, it's about our constitution which you seem to think you can just write an extended version of based on your FEELINGS. 



> Of course US Citizens have the innate right to import people they love and are their families into American. They can be restricted, but when it comes to marriage and love how dare you or anyone even attempt to deprive someone of their right to a happy future life with someone they fell in love with. They also have the right to be visited by their loved ones and the loved ones of their spouses whether they are Muslim, Christian, Hindu or whatever.


You invented all of these "rights". They have no basis in the constitution of the country you *CHOSE* to immigrate to. 



> Also, who are you to endanger a US citizen's life by forcing them to have to visit their family and loved ones abroad in countries where they are not safe.


So the place you come from is so fucked up it's not safe for you to visit, and you want us to import it's people? Why should we take on that burden? Because YOU CHOSE to come here and be a citizen and live on the other side of the planet from your family? Fuck off. :kobe 



> The muslim ban extends not only to immigration but also visits ---- Which if you actually knew ANYTHING at all about the visit visa system and how difficult it is to already get one from Muslim countries you wouldn't even be having this conversation. You know nothing about immigration and it's a topic you love to talk about from my experience ... but of course, since this doesn't fucking effect you or your family at all, you'll just go ahead and support it because you don't actually give a shit about Americans, but rather having your personal xenophobia enforced. You know you love to shit on the "false empathy" of liberals, but here you're doing the exact same thing. You don't actually give a fuck about the rights of American citizens. You want certain rights taken away because those rights are the ones you personally don't believe they have.


The rights you're talking about have never existed under the US constitution. :lmao Your feelings do not invent rights you poorly disguised SJW.

Have to laugh at "xenophobic". :lol Trust me, I have zero issue with people coming in from Europe (who aren't just passing through from Islamic countries), Asia, Australia, or non-Islamic African countries. But sure, not wanting to import more Muslims is XENOPHOBIC. :lol That tactic is not going to work on me.


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## Reaper (Sep 4, 2013)

CamillePunk said:


> It's not about Trump, it's about our constitution which you seem to think you can just write an extended version of based on your FEELINGS.


You really have no idea what you're talking about right now do you? The Constitution is about the freedoms and benefits of *US Citizens* and this is where spousal agreements and immigration falls under. It is for the benefit of the US Citizens. Now whether you personally believe that it is beneficial to them or not does not mean that you get to choose what's a beneficial situation for another American citizen when getting married and raising a family clearly is their right. 


Them having the freedom to marry outside of America is one of those freedoms. It's an inherent right and it is immoral on the part of any government to force citizens to choose who they can marry from within an existing pool. Now citizens can feel free to choose to marry from within their own small town or whatever, but they can also marry outside of America for themselves. It's THEIR choice. The government cannot deny them that right by placing any restriction. 



> You invented all of these "rights". They have no basis in the constitution of the country you *CHOSE* to immigrate to.


I didn't invent those rights. They are the inherent rights of any US Citizen. Are you saying that freedom to marry and then to be united with their spouse isn't a constitutional right? 



> So the place you come from is so fucked up it's not safe for you to visit, and you want us to import it's people? Why should we take on that burden? Because YOU CHOSE to come here and be a citizen and live on the other side of the planet from your family? Fuck off. :kobe


It's not just _my _family. It's also my _wife's_ family now. And yeah, I admit that the place I left behind is shit for a white american girl. So that means that my white american wife can no longer meet her mother in law and father in law because they're Muslims? 

Don't go there with regards to your anti-Muslim hate because if you dare say or imply anything negative about my family, it'll only expose you for the kind of hate-filled person you are. In fact, I'm actually the one here thinking about the well-being of my wife. While you're sitting here implying that her in-laws should be kept out of America for the safety of "Americans" because _you're_ paranoid they might do something horrible. Whatever dude. Your personal fear isn't a reason for a government to blanketly ban an entire group of people. 



> Have to laugh at "xenophobic". :lol Trust me, I have zero issue with people coming in from Europe (who aren't just passing through from Islamic countries), Asia, Australia, or non-Islamic African countries. But sure, not wanting to import more Muslims is XENOPHOBIC. :lol That tactic is not going to work on me.


Yes. Of course it's xenophobic still. In fact it's worse because now it's an admitted double standard - and sad that you're actually proud of yourself for it.


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## CamillePunk (Feb 10, 2011)

Reaper said:


> You really have no idea what you're talking about right now do you? The Constitution is about the freedoms and benefits of *US Citizens* and this is where spousal agreements and immigration falls under. It is for the benefit of the US Citizens. Now whether you personally believe that it is beneficial to them or not does not mean that you get to choose what's a beneficial situation for another American citizen when getting married and raising a family clearly is their right.
> 
> 
> Them having the freedom to marry outside of America is one of those freedoms. It's an inherent right and it is immoral on the part of any government to force citizens to choose who they can marry from within an existing pool. Now citizens can feel free to choose to marry from within their own small town or whatever, but they can also marry outside of America for themselves. It's THEIR choice. The government cannot deny them that right by placing any restriction.
> ...


Why did you change the topic to spouses all of a sudden?  That's not what we were talking about. Stop moving the goal posts. 

Show me the part of the constitution where it states that whatever benefits you automatically becomes a right. That's an incredibly incoherent framework, when viewed without the emotional lens you operate with. 

:done Pretending any prejudice against Islam is a personal phobia is just a level of delusion that can't be reasoned with. I'm waiting for you to ramp up to actually using the term "Islamophobic" so I can hit you with a kill-shot.  

Sorry your family hails from a barbaric culture. It's not hate, it's just self-preservation and the preservation of the objectively superior Western culture which obviously you chose over being with your family in their culture. If you don't like it then Europe seems pretty open to your people right about now (and see how that's working out), perhaps you folks should rendezvous over there somewhere.

:aryep


----------



## stevefox1200 (Jul 7, 2009)

The US government was designed to be "reactive" not "proactive"

We should not be be changing any laws, guns or immigration, because of the actions of the worst people in world

Will their be shootings and attacks in the future, yes and we will deal with those when they happen

We can't start knocking off "possible threats" like this is a nation of generals looking out for a coup


----------



## Reaper (Sep 4, 2013)

CamillePunk said:


> Why did you change the topic to spouses all of a sudden?  That's not what we were talking about. Stop moving the goal posts.


Not once have I moved the goal-posts. From my first post I've been talking about spouses and families. Now that you don't have a counter for that anymore since I've proven to you that marriage is a constitutional right of a US Citizen, you're pretending that I moved the goal-posts. It is btw a 14th amendment federal right to get married to someone - and by definition marriage means living together. To say that someone can get married and then say that they can't be together on American soil is irrational and therefore innately assumed when it comes to being a constitutional right. 



> Show me the part of the constitution where it states that whatever benefits you automatically becomes a right. That's an incredibly incoherent framework, when viewed without the emotional lens you operate with.





> The Preamble to the Constitution states that the document’s purpose is to “form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity.”


http://openborders.info/blog/immigration-and-the-us-constitution/



> :done Pretending any prejudice against Islam is a personal phobia is just a level of delusion that can't be reasoned with. I'm waiting for you to ramp up to actually using the term "Islamophobic" so I can hit you with a kill-shot.


Islamophobia isn't a thing, but projecting your personal fear of a group of people based on their personal beliefs regardless of what they individually believe is prejudice. You can be proud of your prejudice, but don't hide your prejudice under a veil of empathy for what you wrongly believe is for the benefit for everyone else - where you're essentially stripping the rights of one entire group of US Citizens. 



> Sorry your family hails from a barbaric culture. It's not hate, it's just self-preservation and the preservation of the objectively superior Western culture which obviously you chose over being with your family in their culture. If you don't like it then Europe seems pretty open to your people right about now (and see how that's working out), perhaps you folks should rendezvous over there somewhere.
> 
> :aryep


And there you have it. You don't know anything about my family and their actual values. Or millions of muslims an their actual values apart from what you personally want to believe - and that is called bias. 

One can still be a Muslim and hold western values but you don't want to believe that nuance or believe that the people who destroy your personal convictions actually even exist because it would be too inconvenient for you to acknowledge their existence.


----------



## CamillePunk (Feb 10, 2011)

Reaper said:


> Not once have I moved the goal-posts. From my first post I've been talking about spouses and families. Now that you don't have a counter for that anymore since I've proven to you that marriage is a constitutional right of a US Citizen, you're pretending that I moved the goal-posts. It is btw a 14th amendment federal right to get married to someone - and by definition marriage means living together. To say that someone can get married and then say that they can't be together on American soil is irrational and therefore innately assumed when it comes to being a constitutional right.


I'm not responding to EVERY POST YOU'VE MADE IN THE THREAD. I quoted specifically where you implied you had a right to import your relatives (NOT your spouse). You did move the goal posts and I never intended to counter the idea of you having your wife in the country, nor was I aware that was even an issue.



> http://openborders.info/blog/immigration-and-the-us-constitution/


:lol What the hell? How does that give you the rights you claimed in this conversation at all?



> Islamophobia isn't a thing, but projecting your personal fear of a group of people based on their personal beliefs regardless of what they individually believe is prejudice. You can be proud of your prejudice, but don't hide your prejudice under a veil of empathy for what you wrongly believe is for the benefit for everyone else.


Not hiding anything. I don't like Islam and don't believe it's compatible with Western values. To call it a prejudice is to say that dislike isn't based on reason or evidence, which is completely false. I was indifferent to Islam up until a couple years ago when I started learning more about what the Quran actually says vs. what Muslim acquaintances (interestingly enough the few Muslims I have tried to befriend in my life all turned out to be horrible racists, especially toward blacks, but I never held that against Islam itself) would tell me it says. It's also based on polling research of Muslim countries and their general views on things, as well as Muslim Americans. 



> And there you have it. You don't know anything about my family and their actual values. Or millions of muslims an their actual values apart from what you personally want to believe - and that is called bias.
> 
> One can still be a Muslim and hold western values but you don't want to believe that nuance or believe that the people who destroy your personal convictions actually even exist because it would be too inconvenient for you to acknowledge their existence.


Yes, I would certainly hope that many Muslims would cherry-pick their religion and incorporate superior Western values into their lives. I didn't mean your family had barbaric views themselves, but the culture in the Middle East IS rooted in a barbaric, intolerant, violent political-religious ideology.

If a US president wants to place a ban on immigrants from countries with that culture, then they're constitutionally allowed. Trump is more generous about it than I would be, as in the interest of preserving Western civilization I would want the ban to be permanent as little good can come from importing leftists, which Muslim immigrants (as well as Mexican immigrants) to the US overwhelmingly are. This is all if I had to don my statist hat of course. Ideally there's no state and no borders and the free market of ideas and private property sorts all of this out. Alas, we have to deal with the world we live in.


----------



## Reaper (Sep 4, 2013)

CamillePunk said:


> I'm not responding to EVERY POST YOU'VE MADE IN THE THREAD. I quoted specifically where you implied you had a right to import your relatives (NOT your spouse). You did move the goal posts and I never intended to counter the idea of you having your wife in the country, nor was I aware that was even an issue.


Even then it's still not moving goal-posts. Plenty of Muslims already are in America and are already US citizens and therefore they do have the right to bring in their parents or children to be with them. This is what critics call "anchor babies" but many cases are genuine. For example, in the case of my wife, her deadbeat white dad abandoned her as a baby and she grew up fatherless. As a US Citizen she has the right to experience life with an extended family. Now at this point the immigration does not allow parents of immigrants to migrate, and that's fine. It's a sacrifice immigrants are happy to make. But what is innately wrong or harmful about wanting your parents to be with you? TBH, a lot of elderly parents don't migrate at the *** end of their lives - but the thing is that that option should exist and continue to exist (and it does) making it an essential right. At this point this is fine because it's a law that's still based on the same-for-all idea. As per the constitution however, you cannot introduce a law that discriminates based on religion thereby making it inherently unequal. 



> :lol What the hell? How does that give you the rights you claimed in this conversation at all?


Don't be that thick man. This isn't about *MY *rights as an immigrant. This is about the rights of my WIFE who is a US citizen to having a husband and family which is beneficial to her life as a US Citizen. In fact, at this point in this case we're going to have a kid that's going to be raised as per American values and not eastern values - so how is it not beneficial for her as a citizen? 

Also my wife grew up fatherless because her highly cultured and superior western dad was a fucking dead beat who abandoned her as a child. So once I got married, she started seeing my dad as her dad .. Where "importing" extended family comes in is a unification of an extended family for my wife. Now if the government denies their sponsorship based on legitimate criteria that is not based on what they believe as that criteria would apply to everyone then it's fine. Whatever. However, again, a law can't be created to discriminate the sponsorship rights of a specific group of American Citizens. 



> Not hiding anything. I don't like Islam and don't believe it's compatible with Western values. To call it a prejudice is to say that dislike isn't based on reason or evidence, which is completely false. I was indifferent to Islam up until a couple years ago when I started learning more about what the Quran actually says vs. what Muslim acquaintances (interestingly enough the few Muslims I have tried to befriend in my life all turned out to be horrible racists, especially toward blacks, but I never held that against Islam itself) would tell me it says.


I don't think "Islam" is compatible with western values either. But that doesn't mean that *Muslims *aren't compatible just because they are Muslims. You can't blanket ban something based on what you think they believe when they can believe something and still have values that are compatible with western values personally. You can make that determination through a strong immigration process which is already very effective. 

This is WHY there is such a strong vetting process already in place for immigration (and also for visitation) and I have no issues with that at all. I'm not even opposed to making it even more difficult because for fucking sakes I'm just as tired as anyone at some of the fuckers that get in here when they shouldn't. But that does not mean that instead of being progressive and making our systems better that we just put our hands up in the air and say "oh well, nobody's allowed". It's simplistic and ignores the huge host of problems it will create for millions of existing citizens. 



> Yes, I would certainly hope that many Muslims would cherry-pick their religion and incorporate superior Western values into their lives. I didn't mean your family had barbaric views themselves, but the culture in the Middle East IS rooted in a barbaric, intolerant, violent political-religious ideology.


Yes it is. But see my point above.



> If a US president wants to place a ban on immigrants from countries with that culture, then they're constitutionally allowed. Trump is more generous about it than I would be, as in the interest of preserving Western civilization I would want the ban to be permanent as little good can come from importing leftists, which Muslim immigrants (as well as Mexican immigrants) to the US overwhelmingly are. This is all if I had to don my statist hat of course. Ideally there's no state and no borders and the free market of ideas and private property sorts all of this out. Alas, we have to deal with the world we live in.


This is all prejudice. No president has the constitutional right to deny a US Citizen the right to marry anyone they want to marry and that includes a Muslim from abroad - and that alone creates a situation where he can't use his powers to create this kind of a ban. It's gone back to "I like big government where it supports my specific ideology".


----------



## asdf0501 (May 31, 2009)

ST1TCH said:


> You know what will really light a fire up under the asses of employers anc companies to switch to machine labor?
> 
> Raising minimum wage, raising taxes for companies and the wealthy, putting blocks on taking parts of your company overseas...
> 
> ...



God you're delusional.

First, who is talking about Bernie Sanders?.... I was talking about your idiotic point in how the gap is just an effect of this ridicule "plain field" of opportunities, when in reality there is a severe correlation between income inequality and mobility as portrayed in the graph. No one talked about socialism. Is fine to deflect and all that jazz but be serious.

By the way, a machine is cheaper than manual labor so that change will going to happen wanted it or not. At future, distributive measures will be necessary if you don't want to live in poverty because there is no work, it would be fun to see who is able to compromise stupid ideologies for a better future and who is just an idiotic orthodox idelogue


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## BigVern (May 23, 2016)

Reaper said:


> I don't think "Islam" is compatible with western values either. But that doesn't mean that *Muslims *aren't compatible just because they are Muslims. You can't blanket ban something based on what you think they believe when they can believe something and still have values that are compatible with western values personally.


So... 

"You're a follower of a religion that says all homosexuals should be put to death but we'll still give you a chance to show that your personal values are different to those of your CHOSEN religion."

...yeah, so what we do now, because that's obviously fucking working.



Reaper said:


> You can make that determination through a *strong immigration process* which is already very effective.


The shooter was _*BORN IN THE US AND WAS AN AMERICAN CITIZEN*_. Fucking hell. If you're going to make such a strong stand make sure you're not standing in a pile of shit.


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## CamillePunk (Feb 10, 2011)

Okay going to move on from the "rights" discussion because you're just continuing to re-assert things as rights without any constitutional basis. I prefer to deal in facts rather than feelings so clearly that conversation won't go anywhere.


Reaper said:


> I don't think "Islam" is compatible with western values either. But that doesn't mean that *Muslims *aren't compatible just because they are Muslims. You can't blanket ban something based on what you think they believe when they can believe something and still have values that are compatible with western values personally. You can make that determination through a strong immigration process which is already very effective.
> 
> This is WHY there is such a strong vetting process already in place for immigration (and also for visitation) and I have no issues with that at all. I'm not even opposed to making it even more difficult because for fucking sakes I'm just as tired as anyone at some of the fuckers that get in here when they shouldn't. But that does not mean that instead of being progressive and making our systems better that we just put our hands up in the air and say "oh well, nobody's allowed". It's simplistic and ignores the huge host of problems it will create for millions of existing citizens.


For what it's worth I think Trump is softening that stance toward halting immigration from countries with a significant radical Islam terrorist presence, which still wouldn't help your situation I don't believe (and that category will soon include European countries, at the rate they're going). This is actually what I advocated for when he first suggested banning all Muslim immigrants. 



> This is all prejudice. No president has the constitutional right to deny a US Citizen the right to marry anyone they want to marry and that includes a Muslim from abroad - and that alone creates a situation where he can't use his powers to create this kind of a ban. It's gone back to "I like big government where it supports my specific ideology".


Again that executive power DOES exist (although you've worded it in a very manipulative and inaccurate way to evoke an emotional response) under the constitution, and the right you claim it violates does not. This is just a fact. Sorry you don't like it.


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## Reaper (Sep 4, 2013)

CamillePunk said:


> Okay going to move on from the "rights" discussion because you're just continuing to re-assert things as rights without any constitutional basis. I prefer to deal in facts rather than feelings so clearly that conversation won't go anywhere.For what it's worth I think Trump is softening that stance toward halting immigration from countries with a significant radical Islam terrorist presence, which still wouldn't help your situation I don't believe (and that category will soon include European countries, at the rate they're going). This is actually what I advocated for when he first suggested banning all Muslim immigrants.
> 
> Again that executive power DOES exist under the constitution, and the right you claim it violates does not. This is just a fact. Sorry you don't like it.


14th amendment.


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## CamillePunk (Feb 10, 2011)

Reaper said:


> 14th amendment.


Has no application to what you're talking about.

Do you think I have a right to marry and import an ISIS fighter, and that ISIS fighter then becomes a US citizen? Or do you accept that limitations on immigration should exist (with a state), even if I'm wildly in love with that ISIS fighter and by not allowing them to immigrate here it makes me unhappy?


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## Reaper (Sep 4, 2013)

CamillePunk said:


> Has no application to what you're talking about.
> 
> Do you think I have a right to marry and import an ISIS fighter, and that ISIS fighter then becomes a US citizen? Or do you accept that limitations on immigration should exist (with a state), even if I'm wildly in love with that ISIS fighter and by not allowing them to immigrate here it makes me unhappy?


One of the central aspects of the 14th amendment is the guarantee of the civil right to marry for love and the recognition that such a marriage is central to the freedom and liberty of Americans. This is why even someone like a serial killer can get married in America. The government is clear on letting them marry but can restrict their ability to live together because one person has already forgone their civil rights through criminal acts. 

The fact that a woman or man can fall in love with a terrorist does not deny them that right to marry that person and _apply _for their immigration. The government can reject a person based on their potential to cause harm to a society based on legitimate criteria and not just what they believe in .. That would be the same as saying a Christian cannot marry a Hindu because Hindus could do such and such without having any reasonable justification. 

To blanketly ban an entire group of people based on their presumed danger to society pre-emptively is in the realm of denying same-sex couples, or interracial couples - both of which have been struck down by the supreme court. 

It is not the job or the right of the government anymore to deny the ability of someone to fall in love with someone and marry whomever they want as is defined in the constitution. What is unconstitutional here is passing a discriminatory law that would restrict that liberty of Americans to marry someone and live with them pre-emptively without a rational vetting process or for that person having done something like cause tangible harm thereby forgoing their right based on criminal activity - not based on their religious belief. 

Good luck trying to get that passed through the supreme court. The 14th amendment is designed to prevent such an infringement on the rights of US citizens. It would be struck down as discriminatory. 



> In striking down discriminatory marriage laws, the Court’s opinion in _Loving_ called the right to marry a basic civil right of all persons, “one of the vital personal rights essential to the orderly pursuit of happiness,” and for good reason. The Framers of the Fourteenth Amendment recognized the right to marry the person of one’s choosing as a crucial component of freedom and liberty -- a right that had long been denied under the institution of slavery. (For a discussion of the Fourteenth Amendment’s protection of substantive fundamental rights, see _The Gem of the Constitution_). In the Fourteenth Amendment, the Framers sought to guarantee to the newly freed slaves the right to marry. “The attributes of a freeman according to the universal understanding of the American people,” Sen. Jacob Howard observed in 1866, included “the right of having a family, a wife, children, home.” Few rights were more precious to the former slaves than the right to marry and form a committed, loving relationship with the person of their choice. As one African American soldier put it in 1866, “I praise God for this day! I have been long praying for it. The Marriage Covenant is at the foundation of all of our rights. In slavery, we could not have legalized marriage; now we have it.” (For more discussion of this history, see CAC’s _amicus_ brief in _Perry v. Schwarzenegger_).
> _Loving_ -- aptly -- is the foundation for judicial protection of the constitutional right of all persons to marriage equality --the equal right to marry the person of one’s choice. While _Loving_, of course, condemned racially discriminatory marriage laws, the text of the Fourteenth Amendment secures substantive fundamental rights and guarantees the equal protection of the laws to all persons. While the Framers were most concerned about racial discrimination, the text they drafted secures equal rights to all persons and prohibits all forms of invidious discrimination. Nearly 150 years after the Fourteenth Amendment was ratified, its text remains the most universal and sweeping guarantee of equality in our constitutional tradition, protecting all persons without exception.


http://theusconstitution.org/text-history/2996


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## CamillePunk (Feb 10, 2011)

@Reaper 

Never talked about stopping anyone from marrying anyone else. I'm talking about immigration here.


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## birthday_massacre (Jan 30, 2013)

stevefox1200 said:


> The US government was designed to be "reactive" not "proactive"
> 
> We should not be be changing any laws, guns or immigration, because of the actions of the worst people in world
> 
> ...


But with stricter gun laws there would be less shootings and that is the goal. You will never get 0 gun violence but the smaller we can get the number the better and if that just takes more restrictive gun control, like more in-dept background checks, and not letting people that have ties to terriorist or that have some kind of domestic violence on their records not be able to get guns is a step in the right direction.

If you could just stop once mass shooting (and it would stop way more) you dont thin making stricter gun laws would be a good thing


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## Reaper (Sep 4, 2013)

CamillePunk said:


> @Reaper
> 
> Never talked about stopping anyone from marrying anyone else. I'm talking about immigration here.


Rationally, the immigration vetting process is _already _a hardship faced by Americans that want to marry someone that's a non-citizen and creates a barrier (which can be argued shouldn't exist, but it's fine .. whatever). 

A blanket ban on immigration based on someone's beliefs is an outright infringement of the civil liberty to marry whomever the US Citizen wants (marrying and living together are a necessary component of fulfilling this union so they can't be separated from one another). Just because someone "could" become or be a criminal is not cause to pre-emptively deny two people the right to be together. 

A blanket ban is an impractical non-solution.


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## ST1TCH (Aug 6, 2014)

asdf0501 said:


> God you're delusional.
> 
> First, who is talking about Bernie Sanders?.... I was talking about your idiotic point in how the gap is just an effect of this ridicule "plain field" of opportunities, when in reality there is a severe correlation between income inequality and mobility as portrayed in the graph. No one talked about socialism. Is fine to deflect and all that jazz but be serious.
> 
> By the way, a machine is cheaper than manual labor so that change will going to happen wanted it or not. At future, distributive measures will be necessary if you don't want to live in poverty because there is no work, it would be fun to see who is able to compromise stupid ideologies for a better future and who is just an idiotic orthodox idelogue


Machines are already cheaper, employers know that the role they serve as an employer is just as important, if not more, than the role they serve as a producer or distributor, which is why there are still jobs to be had. I just find it ironic that the people who are begging for more and more jobs in the US are the same pushing for policies that will force companies to take away all the jobs. Employees are one of, if not biggest, expense in most companies... Once the tipping point is reached where providing jobs for the community can't happen while turning a profit... Then we have a true unemployment crisis on our hands.

Also, I apologize but I just hate Bernie Sanders with all my heart and I equate all of this bleeding heart all money should be split equally the wealthy are monsters everything should be free and nobody should ever work nonsense to his followers. Even the slightest hint of that malarkey sends me off the deep end.

I'm a fan of capitalism and the US free market economy at heart, and the thought of all these people willing to throw that away for a system which has only been successful at ruining and destroying lives and civilizations terrifies me. I defend every aspect of capitalism (even the ugly stuff) because the good far outweighs the bad and frankly it needs defending these days.


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## nucklehead88 (Dec 17, 2012)

Monkeyfart said:


> Gun control in Europe has stopped exactly ZERO terrorist attacks since it existed
> 
> Kind of like the TSA


Yet the amount of mass shootings in Australia literally halved the year after they put in strict gun laws and banned automatic weapons. And has steadily declined on a yearly basis since. But yea thats probably a coincidence.

As for you Trump loving creeps:

Also this immigration talk can happen all you want...this guy was American. Born in New York. Grew up in the good ol USA. How do you plan on stopping that? How does stopping other Muslims from coming into the country protect against that? If anything it'll anger the Muslims that are already here. Then what? You've pissed off the ones who can't come in and maybe reunite with their family. And you've pissed off the ones that are here and want to be reunited with their family. And made them all feel prosecuted. I wonder what they'll do if you single them out and make them feel prosecuted? Also limiting the movement of people and persecuting them based on their religion....that sounds like something I've heard before.....hmmmm...oh yea....Hitler. This sounds a lot like the campaign Hitler first came up with.


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## birthday_massacre (Jan 30, 2013)

Monkeyfart said:


> Gun control in Europe has stopped exactly ZERO terrorist attacks since it existed
> 
> Kind of like the TSA


it did stop a number of mass shootings and other shootings deaths.


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## Reaper (Sep 4, 2013)

ST1TCH said:


> I'm a fan of capitalism and the US free market economy at heart


But US doesn't have a free market economy and hasn't been since essentially 1929.


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## 2 Ton 21 (Dec 28, 2011)

Are you fucking kidding me?! At a memorial service for the victims you start this bullshit? I'm so sorry that the 50 murdered and the 53 wounded took away the spotlight from what you want to talk about for a couple of fucking days. fpalm


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## ST1TCH (Aug 6, 2014)

Reaper said:


> But US doesn't have a free market economy and hasn't been since essentially 1929.


There are qualities of a free market and qualities of a regulated market. I'm alright with government intervention if it's shown to me that it can be more beneficial than not. Unfortunately the type of government intervention I am vehemently against (the Bernie kind) is like... A lethal dose of poison.


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## asdf0501 (May 31, 2009)

ST1TCH said:


> Machines are already cheaper, employers know that the role they serve as an employer is just as important, if not more, than the role they serve as a producer or distributor, which is why there are still jobs to be had. I just find it ironic that the people who are begging for more and more jobs in the US are the same pushing for policies that will force companies to take away all the jobs. Employees are one of, if not biggest, expense in most companies... Once the tipping point is reached where providing jobs for the community can't happen while turning a profit... Then we have a true unemployment crisis on our hands.


You still have not adressed anything of what i say, i'm going to try one last time...

Are you interiorized in Solow's model?

In simple terms, economies grow until a max point where they can't keep growing to the levels they been doing it or if they do this increase is only marginal, the only increase can be through Technology innovation. All First world countries have reached this point, so we are seeing constant innovation.

As economies keep growing thank to techonology we would get to a point all economies are techonologically based and everything you said doesn't matter at all because there would be only techonolgy and people who profit of them, everyone else would be useless...

You're already seeing traits of this, income inequality is not just an issue in USA but in all the first world (except scandinavian paradises...) as you can see in the graph. So is wise to do some sharing meassures, not just for mobility but because we keep equal oportunities for economy while we move to technologcal innovation....


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## Miss Sally (Jul 14, 2014)

2 Ton 21 said:


> Are you fucking kidding me?! At a memorial service for the victims you start this bullshit? I'm so sorry that the 50 murdered and the 53 wounded took away the spotlight from what you want to talk about for a couple of fucking days. fpalm


This isn't shocking when Paris attacks happened BLM did the hashtag #FuckParis and was talking about how people at mizzo face real terrorism everyday. It was really terrible.


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## yeahbaby! (Jan 27, 2014)

I can barely comprehend people are casually entertaining a blanket ban on all muslims before something like tightening gun laws and banning automatic guns that allow you to shoot dozens of rounds a minute.

Go ahead, ban all Muslims. Besides the obvious moral implications, see how you'll simply play into the hands of the enemy, of ISIS, draw more anti-American sentiment from not only the middle east but all around the world, and see what that does to your society. Would be absolutely disastrous.


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## stevefox1200 (Jul 7, 2009)

yeahbaby! said:


> I can barely comprehend people are casually entertaining a blanket ban on all muslims before something like tightening gun laws and banning automatic guns that allow you to shoot dozens of rounds a minute.
> 
> Go ahead, ban all Muslims. Besides the obvious moral implications, see how you'll simply play into the hands of the enemy, of ISIS, draw more anti-American sentiment from not only the middle east but all around the world, and see what that does to your society. Would be absolutely disastrous.


For semi auto weapons there is no measurement for "rounds per minute"

you can get 30 with a gun designed in the 1910s easy

automatic weapons are illegal and have been for a long time

This is the problem with weapon control arguments

Most people who propose them have zero knowledge of guns and just want to ban what "sounds scary" and act like they are above firearm knowledge 

There are experts who would support a ban but they always get a lawyer or some shit who talks about guns like its still 1960


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## Mifune Jackson (Feb 22, 2013)

stevefox1200 said:


> For semi auto weapons there is no measurement for "rounds per minute"


"Rate of fire" is absolutely a term. "Rounds per minute" is an arbitrary measurement of the rate of fire. Getting hung up on that kind of minutia just feels like a distraction. It could be "bullets per millisecond" or "lead things per hour." Either way, it's an attempt at measuring the rate of fire.



> Rate of fire is the frequency at which a specific weapon can fire or launch its projectiles. It is usually measured in rounds per minute (RPM or round/min), or rounds per second (RPS or round/s). Several different measurements are used. The fastest and most commonly quoted rate is the cyclical rate of fire.
> - Wikipedia


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## stevefox1200 (Jul 7, 2009)

Mifune Jackson said:


> "Rate of fire" is absolutely a term. "Rounds per minute" is an arbitrary measurement of the rate of fire. Getting hung up on that kind of minutia just feels like a distraction. It could be "bullets per millisecond" or "lead things per hour." Either way, it's an attempt at measuring the rate of fire.


Rate of fire is based on the actual ability of the gun to handle that man rounds from a mechanical standpoint

A glock can get over 1000 but that is completely impractical and does not mean much for a shooter


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## yeahbaby! (Jan 27, 2014)

stevefox1200 said:


> For semi auto weapons there is no measurement for "rounds per minute"
> 
> you can get 30 with a gun designed in the 1910s easy
> 
> ...


Come on, I don't give a damn about the specific terminology that's a diversion on your part, you get my point, it's a gun that fires a lot of fucking bullets in a short amount of time, and if this specific one wasn't available to this guy who couldn't have killed so many. That't the bottom line

You're simply projecting about this 'most anti gun people have zero knowledge' stuff, it's a diversion and beside the issue. Put stricter control on the guns that allow people to kill many in a short amount of time. Is that so fricken hard?


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## Mifune Jackson (Feb 22, 2013)

stevefox1200 said:


> Rate of fire is based on the actual ability of the gun to handle that man rounds from a mechanical standpoint
> 
> A glock can get over 1000 but that is completely impractical and does not mean much for a shooter


1000 what? Rounds per minute? There's that term again.



> The rate of fire in fully automatic mode is around 1,100–1,200 *rounds per minute*. Most of the other characteristics are equivalent to the Glock 17, although the slide, frame, and certain fire-control parts of the Glock 18 are not interchangeable with other Glock models.





stevefox1200 said:


> For semi auto weapons there is no measurement for "rounds per minute"


EDIT: I understand that it's subjective in the case of semi automatics, but just saying it is a distinction people use when identifying the type of weapon. Regardless of what the shooter's trigger finger is capable of.


----------



## Reaper (Sep 4, 2013)

ST1TCH said:


> There are qualities of a free market and qualities of a regulated market. I'm alright with government intervention if it's shown to me that it can be more beneficial than not. Unfortunately the type of government intervention I am vehemently against (the Bernie kind) is like... A lethal dose of poison.


Sanders is not encouraging any more government intervention than already exists. He's talking about a more humane and less corporate friendly reallocation of existing funds.


----------



## Reaper (Sep 4, 2013)

Values matter more than labels. The fact that Trump and his cronies don't know anything about their own immigration system where they do ask about your values and do the best they can to ascertain them is kind of sad to see. But I guess they cannot be blamed for not knowing since none of them actually ever got up in front of an immigration official to answer the kinds of questions they ask. Plus, even when you make a system based on determining American values .. which american values do you choose to question them about - because the America I know is a melting pot of all kinds of ideologies from the Westboro "God Hates ****" to Openly Gay Muslims. 

Anyways, here's a feel good story about a Muslim Immigrant. 



> *In Orlando, a Son of a Muslim Immigrant Rushed to Heal Pain Caused by Another
> 
> *Please, he thought, don’t let Ibrahim appear anywhere in the gunman’s name.
> 
> ...


So here's a man that just saved dozens of American lives - and all he hears is that his ilk should be kept out of America .. and then THEY are the ones that are claiming to be the empathic ones. Talk about misguided empathy.


----------



## BigVern (May 23, 2016)

A journalist was just hit with a rock thrown by an anti-Trump protestor at a rally.

When will this senseless violence end? The government should really step in and do something.

*BAN ALL ROCKS! IT'S THE ONLY WAY TO END ROCK VIOLENCE!*


----------



## birthday_massacre (Jan 30, 2013)

BigVern said:


> A journalist was just hit with a rock thrown by an anti-Trump protestor at a rally.
> 
> When will this senseless violence end? The government should really step in and do something.
> 
> *BAN ALL ROCKS! IT'S THE ONLY WAY TO END ROCK VIOLENCE!*


Trump is the one who started all the violence, now the other side is just following suit. This shit never happened at this rate before Trump.

if Trump is ever president more and more stuff like this will happen from both sides.


----------



## BigVern (May 23, 2016)

birthday_massacre said:


> Trump is the one who started all the violence, now the other side is just following suit. This shit never happened at this rate before Trump.
> 
> if Trump is ever president more and more stuff like this will happen from both sides.


Well, I guess the rocks won't hurt if you're thickheaded enough.

You'll be glad to hear that you're perfectly safe.


----------



## birthday_massacre (Jan 30, 2013)

BigVern said:


> Well, I guess the rocks won't hurt if you're thickheaded enough.
> 
> You'll be glad to hear that you're perfectly safe.


The whole rock vs gun argument is laughably bad since rocks were not made to kill people like guns are and there are no mass shootings or killing with rocks like there are with guns.

When pro gun people post terrible post like yours it just shows you have no real defense on the issue.


----------



## Nikki Is Mai Waifu (Jun 17, 2016)

Bad people will do bad things. Some nutjob shooting up a gay bar doesn't give Obama the right to infringe upon my second amendment rights. Guns are here to stay, and I suggest that responsible people arm themselves, because at this rate we are going to need them.


----------



## birthday_massacre (Jan 30, 2013)

Nikki Is Mai Waifu said:


> Bad people will do bad things. Some nutjob shooting up a gay bar doesn't give Obama the right to infringe upon my second amendment rights. Guns are here to stay, and I suggest that responsible people arm themselves, because at this rate we are going to need them.


So you think that people who were or are on a terrorist watch list should be able to get a gun?

Making gun laws stronger isnt infringing upon your rights to have a gun, its to make sure only responsible people arm themselves like yourself, so if you are responsible you will have nothing to worry about.


----------



## Nikki Is Mai Waifu (Jun 17, 2016)

birthday_massacre said:


> So you think that people who were or are on a terrorist watch list should be able to get a gun?
> 
> Making gun laws stronger isnt infringing upon your rights to have a gun, its to make sure only responsible people arm themselves like yourself, so if you are responsible you will have nothing to worry about.


I shouldn't have to go through extensive background testing or classes or whatever nonsense you liberals are proposing to get a gun. 

Do you really think stricter gun laws are going to stop criminals from getting guns? The majority aren't obtaining them legally as it is. Stricter gun laws will only make it harder for responsible, law-abiding citizens. Criminals will keep getting guns off of other criminals, and less and less people will be able to get guns for self defense.

The founding fathers gave me my rights, and I will be damned if anybody takes them from me!


----------



## BigVern (May 23, 2016)

birthday_massacre said:


> The whole rock vs gun argument is laughably bad since rocks were not made to kill people like guns are and there are no mass shootings or killing with rocks like there are with guns.
> 
> When pro gun people post terrible post like yours it just shows you have no real defense on the issue.


I'm not pro gun, I'm just not stupid enough to think that more gun regulations is the answer we need to terrorism. I'm very much FOR more regulation. It just won't make a damn bit of difference against extremists.

When people want to hurt people they will. With guns or without. Gun regulation shouldn't be the focus, ending the actual desire & motives for violence should be...

Those of you making this an issue of gun control are either:
1) using these deaths as fuel for your anti-gun sentiments
or
2) too ignorant to see that even without legally obtained guns people would have died. Look at Boston, Paris, shit... 9/11...

Guns are a problem, but they're not the problem here. The focus should be on alleviating and eliminating the hate/haters, not the guns, and certainly not on the presidential election that's months and months away.


----------



## BigVern (May 23, 2016)

An extremist _without_ a gun is far more dangerous than someone who _has_ a gun but no motive to kill.

That alone shows that the main focus should be on regulating extremists before guns.

It's really as simple as that. Anyone still arguing anything different is using the dead bodies in Orlando as a soapbox to spout their own beliefs.


----------



## deepelemblues (Sep 26, 2011)

19 men with box cutters, 2 Boeing 757s and 2 Boeing 767s killed 3,000 people, more than have been killed by every mass shooting in this country combined.

Clearly we need strict box cutter and Boeing jumbo jet control. No one should be able to use box cutters and airplanes to kill 3,000 people. It's far too easy for people to walk onto a plane and use it to kill. All civilian planes above the size of a Gulfstream V should be banned immediately. Only the military and police should be able to possess such dangerous weapons.


----------



## Reaper (Sep 4, 2013)

deepelemblues said:


> 19 men with box cutters, 2 Boeing 757s and 2 Boeing 767s killed 3,000 people, more than have been killed by every mass shooting in this country combined.
> 
> Clearly we need strict box cutter and Boeing jumbo jet control. No one should be able to use box cutters and airplanes to kill 3,000 people. It's far too easy for people to walk onto a plane and use it to kill. All civilian planes above the size of a Gulfstream V should be banned immediately. Only the military and police should be able to possess such dangerous weapons.


When planes were used to kill 3000 Americans, it spawned billions of dollars worth of security measures at airports, new laws and a couple of very costly wars. Didn't result in them doing nothing. 

Checkmate.


----------



## ST1TCH (Aug 6, 2014)

Reaper said:


> Sanders is not encouraging any more government intervention than already exists. He's talking about a more humane and less corporate friendly reallocation of existing funds.


Government regulated healthcare
Government regulated higher education

Just to name two. I wonder if his supporters realize they're going to get the shit taxed out of them as well should he get his way by some miracle. It's not as simple as lynching the wealthy and stealing their money or eradicating the military to pay for everything, that's just not enough money.


----------



## Miss Sally (Jul 14, 2014)

birthday_massacre said:


> Trump is the one who started all the violence, now the other side is just following suit. This shit never happened at this rate before Trump.
> 
> if Trump is ever president more and more stuff like this will happen from both sides.


Oh come on Trump didn't start anything, it was the bernie bros and hillary shills who kept going into Trump rallies and fucking with people and acting like fools. A few Trump supporters got out of hand but nothing like these far leftists are doing. The ends does not justify the means.


----------



## nucklehead88 (Dec 17, 2012)

Nikki Is Mai Waifu said:


> I shouldn't have to go through extensive background testing or classes or whatever nonsense you liberals are proposing to get a gun.
> 
> Do you really think stricter gun laws are going to stop criminals from getting guns? The majority aren't obtaining them legally as it is. Stricter gun laws will only make it harder for responsible, law-abiding citizens. Criminals will keep getting guns off of other criminals, and less and less people will be able to get guns for self defense.
> 
> The founding fathers gave me my rights, and I will be damned if anybody takes them from me!


Yup you have your rights. But dont be complaining when this shit keeps happening.


----------



## deepelemblues (Sep 26, 2011)

Omar Mateen's wife is now "missing." The woman who bought the ammunition he used. The woman who probably drove him to Pulse. The woman he was texting with while he was in the middle of killing 50 people.

Yeah, the police, the FBI, DHS, they have no fucking clue where she is right now. 

The US government has top men on the job protecting us, Dr. Jones.

Top.

Men. 

:zeb



Reaper said:


> When planes were used to kill 3000 Americans, it spawned billions of dollars worth of security measures at airports, new laws and a couple of very costly wars. Didn't result in them doing nothing.
> 
> Checkmate.


And all those billions of dollars, all those new laws, all that government government government up in our assholes, has failed miserably abroad and a little bit less miserably at home.

So clearly the answer is more government up in our assholes on a tangential issue that will do precisely zippity and doo-dah fuck-all to stop the next Omar Mateen. 

"Checkmate."


----------



## Municipal Waste (Jan 1, 2016)

deepelemblues said:


> Omar Mateen's wife is now "missing." The woman who bought the ammunition he used. The woman who probably drove him to Pulse. The woman he was texting with while he was in the middle of killing 50 people.
> 
> Yeah, the police, the FBI, DHS, they have no fucking clue where she is right now.
> 
> ...


We have the worst track record for bullshit like this of any civilized country in the world. I don't know what the exact answer is, but it would take a complete idiot to think we're currently doing things the right way. Not calling you an idiot, as you might have some good ideas of your own on how to make meaningful changes in other ways, but obviously this current set of systems is pure idiocy.

Are you fucking kidding me about the wife? I was just completely amazed to read that she had "tried to disuade him" yet wasn't rotting behind bars.


----------



## CamillePunk (Feb 10, 2011)

:drose The only candidate talking sense about Orlando.


----------



## Gandhi (Sep 15, 2012)

Holy shit! :mark: :mark: :mark: :mark: :mark:


----------



## birthday_massacre (Jan 30, 2013)

Miss Sally said:


> Oh come on Trump didn't start anything, it was the bernie bros and hillary shills who kept going into Trump rallies and fucking with people and acting like fools. A few Trump supporters got out of hand but nothing like these far leftists are doing. The ends does not justify the means.


There have always been protestors at some rallies but they never got beat up in the past, they got ignored or would be escorted out peacefully. But with Trump he started the violence by telling his supporters to beat them up and he said he would pay for their legal fees. You never heard about violence at rallies to this extent before Trump.


----------



## ST1TCH (Aug 6, 2014)

Mr Sanders I went to a Trump rally and hit a guy with a rock for wearing a hat I didn't like and set police cars on fire and it's all their fault because I was doing it in a peaceful way but now I'm being sued and it isn't my fault because they deserved it for having different opinions than me and I need you to pay for it.


----------



## birthday_massacre (Jan 30, 2013)

BigVern said:


> I'm not pro gun, I'm just not stupid enough to think that more gun regulations is the answer we need to terrorism. I'm very much FOR more regulation. It just won't make a damn bit of difference against extremists.
> 
> When people want to hurt people they will. With guns or without. Gun regulation shouldn't be the focus, ending the actual desire & motives for violence should be...
> 
> ...


More gun regulations is the answer to help stopping mass shootings and shootings, which is what we had here. It would have made a difference in this case since this guy got his guns legally.
Sure if someone wants to hurt someone they will do it with or without guns but why make it easy for them to get guns? 

Gun regulation should be the focus when they are doing int with GUNS. This is the biggest mass shooting in US history by a single shooter. But oh yeah its not a gun issue. 

Ending the motive isn't the only thing that should be stopped its also how they are obtaining these weapons, especially if they are getting them legally when they were a suspected terrorist, or mentally ill.

1. I love how people like you say people use these deaths to fuel an anti-gun sentiments yet you are using it to fuel your anti-muslim sentiments. 
2. These people would not have died if this guy was not able to legally obtain his guns. Show me would this people would have still died? These exactly people .
As for things like 9/11, guess what happened after 9/11? They cracked down on airport security and put in all new rules about what happens when you go to an airport. So why shouldn't the same thing happen with guns?

In Boston for the marathons they made security tighter and improved it and made new rules for what you can and cannot have around those key areas. So why can't we do the same for gun regulations?

After all of those incidents they put new security measures in place yet people dont want to do the same when it comes to guns? 

GOTCHA

Guns are the problem here since a person who was on a terrorist watch list was able to get a gun legally. 

not sure how many more shootings we need before enough is enough.


----------



## BigVern (May 23, 2016)

birthday_massacre said:


> More gun regulations is the answer to help stopping mass shootings and shootings, which is what we had here. It would have made a difference in this case since this guy got his guns legally.
> Sure if someone wants to hurt someone they will do it with or without guns but why make it easy for them to get guns?
> 
> Gun regulation should be the focus when they are doing int with GUNS. This is the biggest mass shooting in US history by a single shooter. But oh yeah its not a gun issue.
> ...


See:


BigVern said:


> An extremist _without_ a gun is far more dangerous than someone who _has_ a gun but no motive to kill.
> 
> That alone shows that the main focus should be on regulating extremists before guns.
> 
> It's really as simple as that. Anyone still arguing anything different is using the dead bodies in Orlando as a soapbox to spout their own beliefs.


----------



## birthday_massacre (Jan 30, 2013)

BigVern said:


> See:


You are totally missing the point. You are trying to keep guns out of the hands of people would motive to kill, you know like TERRORIST or the mental ill.

If someone has the sole purpose of getting a gun to kill someone or a large number of people, that is who you dont want getting guns legally.

the person that did the Orlando shooting had a motive to kill. Don't act like he didn't. So whole point is moot.

So you think the people that have a motive to kill should be able to get guns legally so they can do what they did in Orlando again and again like keeps happening?

Who is more dangerous

An extremist without a gun or someone who has a gun with a motive to kill?


You totally strawmaned that argument. We are not talking about keep guns out of the hands of people with no motive to kill, we are talking about keep the guns out of people who plan to buy guns legally to shoot someone or a group of people.

How about debating that instead of your strawman argument about extremist vs people who have no motive with that is not what we are talking about. But of course you can't debate that because you have no defense for that


You really think that people who plan to kill someone with a gun (not self defense) should be able to get a gun legally?


----------



## birthday_massacre (Jan 30, 2013)

CamillePunk said:


> :drose The only candidate talking sense about Orlando.


Trump is a moron, three people had guns in that shooting and the shooter still got by them and killed 49 people and injured like 50 more.


----------



## DesolationRow (Oct 11, 2009)

The FBI has no idea where Omar Mateen's wife is: http://www.businessinsider.com/the-...re-the-attack-and-now-shes-disappeared-2016-6



> The gunman who killed 49 people at a gay Orlando nightclub early on Sunday morning apparently prepared for his own death before the shooting.
> 
> Omar Mateen, 29, added his wife, 30-year-old Noor Salman, to his life-insurance policy and gave her access to his bank accounts, CNN reported on Friday, citing unidentified law-enforcement sources.
> 
> ...


----------



## birthday_massacre (Jan 30, 2013)

DesolationRow said:


> The FBI has no idea where Omar Mateen's wife is: http://www.businessinsider.com/the-...re-the-attack-and-now-shes-disappeared-2016-6


the FBI botching this whole thing, WTF is their deal. How can this huge person of interest just be able to disappear.


----------



## Slicked (Jun 18, 2016)

This just proves why Islam goes against the American way of life


----------



## Miss Sally (Jul 14, 2014)

birthday_massacre said:


> the FBI botching this whole thing, WTF is their deal. How can this huge person of interest just be able to disappear.


The same way the state department can only process 500 pages of Hilary's emails a month which will take them til 2079 to read through them all. The FBI is either incompetent on purpose or just overall.


----------



## ST1TCH (Aug 6, 2014)

I love how people compare 9/11 and Orlando, because they see a mental connection between an airplane and a gun, but can't wrap their head around a middle eastern extremist and a middle eastern extremist being at all similar or related.


----------



## birthday_massacre (Jan 30, 2013)

ST1TCH said:


> I love how people compare 9/11 and Orlando, because they see a mental connection between an airplane and a gun, but can't wrap their head around a middle eastern extremist and a middle eastern extremist being at all similar or related.


What happened after 9/11? They cracked down on airport security. So using that logic they should crack down on gun control after the Orlando incident.


----------



## FriedTofu (Sep 29, 2014)

All these gun regulation talk just reminds me I wouldn't like to go to an establishment where alcohol is readily consumed and guns are allowed.

I wouldn't trust the aim of a drunk person to take down the terrorist even if he/she is a 'good person' using the gun.


----------



## birthday_massacre (Jan 30, 2013)

FriedTofu said:


> All these gun regulation talk just reminds me I wouldn't like to go to an establishment where alcohol is readily consumed and guns are allowed.
> 
> I wouldn't trust the aim of a drunk person to take down the terrorist even if he/she is a 'good person' using the gun.


Not to mention, do you really want to be in a bar where people have guns and get beer muscles and want to fight each other? one pulls a gun out in a drunkend stooper and shoots another drunk. Instead of bar fights you would get bar shoot outs. The last thing you want are drunk people who are armed.


----------



## FriedTofu (Sep 29, 2014)

birthday_massacre said:


> Not to mention, do you really want to be in a bar where people have guns and get beer muscles and want to fight each other? one pulls a gun out in a drunkend stooper and shoots another drunk. Instead of bar fights you would get bar shoot outs. The last thing you want are drunk people who are armed.


People already pull guns to resolve conflict even with restrictions in the establishment. They just wait till the party that they felt slighted them outside and then shoot them there.

I'm saying the guns will help against terrorists in this debate is stupid to me because only security personel ( of establishment or some rich people) at the place will be armed and sober. Who's going to go out and have fun, be carrying a gun, and stay sober in such places (unless it is against their beliefs to consume alcohol)? Designated armed security like a designated driver among a group of friends? What if the designated person is the poorest shot? Is this really a thing? :lol


----------



## ST1TCH (Aug 6, 2014)

birthday_massacre said:


> What happened after 9/11? They cracked down on airport security. So using that logic they should crack down on gun control after the Orlando incident.


That's just a weird connection to make, you've really gotta ignore the logic there.

Middle eastern extremist with a plane
Middle eastern extremist with a gun.

Yeah, it's the plane and gun.


----------



## birthday_massacre (Jan 30, 2013)

ST1TCH said:


> That's just a weird connection to make, you've really gotta ignore the logic there.
> 
> Middle eastern extremist with a plane
> Middle eastern extremist with a gun.
> ...


The only person ignoring logic there is you and the pro gun crowd.

Not sure how you cannot make the connection. 

They made it harder for an extremist to hijack a plane so why not make it harder for an extremist to be able to get a gun?


----------



## Reaper (Sep 4, 2013)

ST1TCH said:


> That's just a weird connection to make, you've really gotta ignore the logic there.
> 
> Middle eastern extremist with a plane
> Middle eastern extremist with a gun.
> ...


Omar Mateen was born in New York
Donald Trump was born in New York

(Him being middle-eastern has nothing to do with it. There's a lot more complexity here than you're willing to look at)

That said, what you're purposefully ignoring is that fact that the government stepped in to take measures (even if they may have been misguided or "wrong" or inconsequential) after the 9/11 attack to make it more difficult for people to use planes to kill other people.


----------



## Mifune Jackson (Feb 22, 2013)

Omar Mateen was an American extremist with ISIS sympathies. There is a massive distinction between that and the 9/11 dudes. This was an American.


----------



## ST1TCH (Aug 6, 2014)

His connection to the society that supports the murder of gays has nothing to do with his shooting spree at a gay club.

I'm just starting to see now that I've been posting with parody accounts. Good on you for tricking me into wasting my time.


----------



## Roxinius (Jul 21, 2014)

birthday_massacre said:


> The only person ignoring logic there is you and the pro gun crowd.
> 
> Not sure how you cannot make the connection.
> 
> They made it harder for an extremist to hijack a plane so why not make it harder for an extremist to be able to get a gun?


how exactly is the pro gun crowd ignoring logic? is it that we dont believe modern sporting rifles should be banned because they are used in less than 3% of shootings over all?


----------



## Pronoss (Aug 20, 2014)

I find it funny a gay man (bisexual) who been going there for years, snapped and went postal.


this is not about Isis.

He'd been there many times dancing and a ****** talked about him. His old myspace page had tons of pics when gay guys all admiring him calling him sexy and him saying thanks. But now when you pull up his myspace FBI had it taken down. 


they don't want people to realize a card carrying democrat, gay, took out a nightclub 

































> “Sometimes he would go over in the corner and sit and drink by himself, and other times he would get so drunk he was loud and belligerent,” said Ty Smith, who also uses the name Aries.
> 
> He saw Mateen at the club at least a dozen times, he told the Sentinel. “We didn’t really talk to him a lot, but I remember him saying things about his dad at times,” Smith said. “He told us he had a wife and child.”
> 
> ...





http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/news/orlando-shooter-omar-mateen-was-gay-former-classma/nrfwW/




He was a closet queer, who hated himself and went postal. To cover it up he said the isis line knowing they'd focus on that instead of him being gay. He expected to survive, the cops stormed in while he had hostages. 

You do not storm the place when they have hostages, you get intel, and get a negotiator to assess, if it's bullshit bluff, or what, you just rush in things go even worse.


----------



## yeahbaby! (Jan 27, 2014)

Pronoss said:


> I find it funny a gay man (bisexual) who been going there for years, snapped and went postal.
> 
> 
> this is not about Isis.
> ...


BUT BUT BUT.... ISLAM! M-M-M-MUSLIM EXTREMISTS! I KNOW IT'S ALL THEIR FAULT! BAN THEM ALL!


----------



## Reaper (Sep 4, 2013)

yeahbaby! said:


> BUT BUT BUT.... ISLAM! M-M-M-MUSLIM EXTREMISTS! I KNOW IT'S ALL THEIR FAULT! BAN THEM ALL!


Nuance only exists for certain people on this site when the shooter is white. Take the Brexit shooter for example.


----------



## Oda Nobunaga (Jun 12, 2006)

Just found out my cousin's husband's brother used to work at Pulse and his boyfriend was there the night of the attack and had escaped. He had everyone on the edge of their seat yesterday at a family gathering as he relayed what his boyfriend had told him. Scary shit. I don't really know them much, but I'm glad they're both safe. Now that we've heard more attacks are planned (I'm not sure how much of it is media fearmongering, though), I'd say people are on edge.


----------



## Municipal Waste (Jan 1, 2016)

Oda Nobunaga said:


> Just found out my cousin's husband's brother used to work at Pulse and his boyfriend was there the night of the attack and had escaped. He had everyone on the edge of their seat yesterday at a family gathering as he relayed what his boyfriend had told him. Scary shit. I don't really know them much, but I'm glad they're both safe. Now that we've heard more attacks are planned (I'm not sure how much of it is media fearmongering, though), I'd say people are on edge.


I live in the area and am certainly on edge about renewing my Disney passes, hitting up Disney Springs, or going to Orlando's Wrestlemania. The math is that I'd almost certainly be fine, and I know this is the reaction that terrorism is specifically trying for, but I'm also concerned that someone might try and hit the same city again to increase that effect. It's a tough thing.


----------



## birthday_massacre (Jan 30, 2013)

Pronoss said:


> I find it funny a gay man (bisexual) who been going there for years, snapped and went postal.
> 
> 
> this is not about Isis.
> ...


exactly, they want to hide the fact that is was a hate crime about gays, and it was not about a Muslim Extremist attack like they are trying to make it out to be.


----------



## birthday_massacre (Jan 30, 2013)

Roxinius said:


> how exactly is the pro gun crowd ignoring logic? is it that we dont believe modern sporting rifles should be banned because they are used in less than 3% of shootings over all?


I said just guns, never mentioned just sporting or assault rifles in this last posts which is what we were discussing. I was talking about all guns. It not about banning sporting or assault rifles, its about getting gun control, so a person who has ties to terrorist cannot legally get a gun no mater what kind it is. Gun laws need to be he same for every state across the board, its stupid how each state can make their own gun regulations. Gun laws need to be tough to make sure things like this dont keep happening.


----------



## stevefox1200 (Jul 7, 2009)

I personally wondering what drives a man to think "I don't want them to think I'm gay... I KNOW!!! I'LL MAKE THEM THINK I'M A TERRORIST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

What happened in this mans childhood to make him think that is better to be viewed as ISIS rather than gay?


----------



## birthday_massacre (Jan 30, 2013)

stevefox1200 said:


> I personally wondering what drives a man to think "I don't want them to think I'm gay... I KNOW!!! I'LL MAKE THEM THINK I'M A TERRORIST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
> 
> What happened in this mans childhood to make him think that is better to be viewed as ISIS rather than gay?


Because of his religion. Most people of faith that are the biggest anti gay people are closed gays.

its a self loathing thing.


----------



## skypod (Nov 13, 2014)

ST1TCH said:


> That's just a weird connection to make, you've really gotta ignore the logic there.
> 
> Middle eastern extremist with a plane
> Middle eastern extremist with a gun.
> ...


What's an issue that can be fixed by the end of 2016? Do you really think the extremist Islamist ideology is going to be overturned anytime soon? 

It's the same time anytime theres a WHITE mass shooting and republicians say "well we need to look at mental health so they dont kill people again, its not the guns" but subsequently NOTHING IS DONE TO FIX MENTAL HEALTH. Partly because its something you'll never fully fix and partly because no actual action is taken afterwards anyway. 

It's a copout and they know if they pin it on something else, nothing will truly be resolved and people will just go about their day. Reason being they care more about how awesome having high capicity ammo is than the lives of their fellow citizens.


----------



## birthday_massacre (Jan 30, 2013)

skypod said:


> What's an issue that can be fixed by the end of 2016? Do you really think the extremist Islamist ideology is going to be overturned anytime soon?
> 
> It's the same time anytime theres a WHITE mass shooting and republicians say "well we need to look at mental health so they dont kill people again, its not the guns" but subsequently NOTHING IS DONE TO FIX MENTAL HEALTH. Partly because its something you'll never fully fix and partly because no actual action is taken afterwards anyway.
> 
> It's a copout and they know if they pin it on something else, nothing will truly be resolved and people will just go about their day. Reason being they care more about how awesome having high capicity ammo is than the lives of their fellow citizens.


You dont even have to fix the mentally ill or the Islam extremist, you just need to keep them from being able to get guns easily or legally 

Last thing you want is to arm a bunch of drunk people in a bar, the NRA even said that would be a bad idea.


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## MrMister (Mar 11, 2005)

Will regulation create a stronger black market though? The guns already exist and they are in the hundreds of millions. The black market for arms already exists. Would regulation make it more powerful?


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## deepelemblues (Sep 26, 2011)

MrMister said:


> Will regulation create a stronger black market though? The guns already exist and they are in the hundreds of millions. The black market for arms already exists. Would regulation make it more powerful?


It did in Australia. There's a very dangerous and powerful gun black market in Australia centered on biker gangs and Middle Eastern (mostly Lebanese) drug rings that didn't exist to that degree before the new gun laws came into effect in 1997. Which were an ~80% failure at confiscating the newly prohibited guns anyway, another reason the black market had fertile ground to grow in. They confiscated ~650,000 guns out of ~7 million, leaving more than 6 million officially classified as existing in a black legal area if not actually on the black market itself. I don't doubt that more of those guns found their way onto the black market than would have been the case if their possession for law-abiding Australian citizens hadn't been made illegal.


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## ST1TCH (Aug 6, 2014)

Everyone that has gone on record about gun control that owns a gun or has adequate knowledge on firearms claims it's difficult to get a gun. Everyone that has gone on record about gun control that has no interest in owning a gun talks about how easy it is to get a gun then goes on to describe incorrect types of guns.

I wonder which side I will believe on this one.


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## ST1TCH (Aug 6, 2014)

deepelemblues said:


> It did in Australia. There's a very dangerous and powerful gun black market in Australia centered on biker gangs and Middle Eastern (mostly Lebanese) drug rings that didn't exist to that degree before the new gun laws came into effect in 1997. Which were an ~80% failure at confiscating the newly prohibited guns anyway, another reason the black market had fertile ground to grow in. They confiscated ~650,000 guns out of ~7 million, leaving more than 6 million officially classified as existing in a black legal area if not actually on the black market itself. I don't doubt that more of those guns found their way onto the black market than would have been the case if their possession for law-abiding Australian citizens hadn't been made illegal.


Yeah, gun violence is down in Australia, unfortunately every single other type of violent crime with no exception has skyrocketed. Something tells me the guns aren't telling people to be violent.


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## deepelemblues (Sep 26, 2011)

ST1TCH said:


> Yeah, gun violence is down in Australia, unfortunately every single other type of violent crime with no exception has skyrocketed. Something tells me the guns aren't telling people to be violent.


Maybe in the last couple of years, from 2005 to 2014 gun crime in Australia as a whole increased by over 80%.

Australia is a very peaceful country so we're talking about going from a very small number to a slightly bigger very small number.


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## ST1TCH (Aug 6, 2014)

deepelemblues said:


> Maybe in the last couple of years, from 2005 to 2014 gun crime in Australia as a whole increased by over 80%.
> 
> Australia is a very peaceful country so we're talking about going from a very small number to a slightly bigger very small number.


Well, that just strengthens my points anyway.


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## RetepAdam. (May 13, 2007)

All four gun control measures (two proposed by Democrats and two by Republicans) failed in Congress today.

Apparently, "Hey, maybe we shouldn't let people on the terrorist watch list buy guns" was just a bridge too far for some.


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## Reaper (Sep 4, 2013)

stevefox1200 said:


> I personally wondering what drives a man to think "I don't want them to think I'm gay... I KNOW!!! I'LL MAKE THEM THINK I'M A TERRORIST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
> 
> What happened in this mans childhood to make him think that is better to be viewed as ISIS rather than gay?


He's from a culture that hates gays in a culture that has plenty of gay haters as well.

Maybe in his mind this was his salvation and ticket to heaven.


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## birthday_massacre (Jan 30, 2013)

RetepAdam. said:


> All four gun control measures (two proposed by Democrats and two by Republicans) failed in Congress today.
> 
> Apparently, "Hey, maybe we shouldn't let people on the terrorist watch list buy guns" was just a bridge too far for some.


Of course the NRA and the republicans they pay off want terrorist to be able to get guns, so they can fear monger and then that will in turn get other people to buy guns to "protect" themselves incase those scary terrorist ever come to their house.

That is why the NRA and GOP doesn't want better gun control because it will cut into their margins.


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## stevefox1200 (Jul 7, 2009)

The nra and the republicans are actually butting heads right now

NRA basically said "we don't have a problem with tighter regulations at this point"


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## birthday_massacre (Jan 30, 2013)

stevefox1200 said:


> The nra and the republicans are actually butting heads right now
> 
> NRA basically said "we don't have a problem with tighter regulations at this point"


They did disagree with Trump that guns should be allowed in bars. So I give the NRA credit for that at least.


http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/nra-top-lobbyist-people-orlando-night-club-armed/story?id=39963267


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## stevefox1200 (Jul 7, 2009)

birthday_massacre said:


> They did disagree with Trump that guns should be allowed in bars. So I give the NRA credit for that at least.
> 
> 
> http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/nra-top-lobbyist-people-orlando-night-club-armed/story?id=39963267


For as much as you dislike the NRA they have always tried very hard to distance themselves form "drunk ******** shooting shotguns" side of gun owners and have preached proper training and safety drills 

Problem is that most responsible gun owners don't brag about their shooting ability or flash their gat


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## ST1TCH (Aug 6, 2014)

You keep coming back to this bar thing but I'm really guessing you've never been to a bar... I'm in a bar fairly frequently and I've never seen a firefight or duel.

Where is this magical world of constant armed bar skirmishes you speak of?

I also believe that bar owners have the right to refuse service to anyone for any reason, so if they're that uncomfortable with this wild west outlaw town you live in they can refuse anyone armed with a gun... Much in the same way that a gun retailer can refuse anyone with a name that sounds like they're going to murder in the name of Allah... Much in the way that a baker can refuse to make a cake for anyone they so choose.

It's called freedom, get with it or get your beekeeper costume on and go be some guys fourth beaten wife.


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## Miss Sally (Jul 14, 2014)

Reaper said:


> He's from a culture that hates gays in a culture that has plenty of gay haters as well.
> 
> Maybe in his mind this was his salvation and ticket to heaven.


He may have considered it a test from Allah, give into his homosexual desires or redeem himself. He maybe considered that what he did was redeeming himself and proving his loyalty to Allah.


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## yeahbaby! (Jan 27, 2014)

RetepAdam. said:


> All four gun control measures (two proposed by Democrats and two by Republicans) failed in Congress today.
> 
> Apparently, "Hey, maybe we shouldn't let people on the terrorist watch list buy guns" was just a bridge too far for some.


Pathetic. Keep your filthy, corrupt lips wrapped around that big NRA cock at all costs, eh Congress?


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## birthday_massacre (Jan 30, 2013)

stevefox1200 said:


> For as much as you dislike the NRA they have always tried very hard to distance themselves form "drunk ******** shooting shotguns" side of gun owners and have preached proper training and safety drills
> 
> Problem is that most responsible gun owners don't brag about their shooting ability or flash their gat


I do give them credit for that for sure.


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## asdf0501 (May 31, 2009)

deepelemblues said:


> *Maybe in the last couple of years, from 2005 to 2014 gun crime in Australia as a whole increased by over 80%.*
> 
> Australia is a very peaceful country so we're talking about going from a very small number to a slightly bigger very small number.


http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/australia

:lmao

edit: http://www.aic.gov.au/statistics/violent crime.html
http://aic.gov.au/media_library/publications/tandi_pdf/tandi028.pdf

The only thing that has really increased is Sexual assault, which is 80% but is back to the 80's level. Differences on numbers and proportions, again....


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## Reaper (Sep 4, 2013)

Miss Sally said:


> He may have considered it a test from Allah, give into his homosexual desires or redeem himself. He maybe considered that what he did was redeeming himself and proving his loyalty to Allah.


Yeah. That's pretty much how the religious mind works. Sin and temptation is either the work of the devil (christians) or a test from Allah (muslim). The diff is that christians are told that their redemption lies in confessing and begging forgiveness, while Muslim redemption lies in both begging forgiveness or committing a "good deed" that will counter the sin. And since the religion is extremely contradictory on what it considers a good deed we have religiously motivated killing in Islam more so than any other religion.


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## CamillePunk (Feb 10, 2011)

RetepAdam. said:


> All four gun control measures (two proposed by Democrats and two by Republicans) failed in Congress today.
> 
> Apparently, "Hey, maybe we shouldn't let people on the terrorist watch list buy guns" was just a bridge too far for some.





birthday_massacre said:


> Of course the NRA and the republicans they pay off want terrorist to be able to get guns, so they can fear monger and then that will in turn get other people to buy guns to "protect" themselves incase those scary terrorist ever come to their house.
> 
> That is why the NRA and GOP doesn't want better gun control because it will cut into their margins.





yeahbaby! said:


> Pathetic. Keep your filthy, corrupt lips wrapped around that big NRA cock at all costs, eh Congress?


You guys are pretty fucking terrible liberals if you think being on the terror watch list is justification for revoking a person's rights. :lol You can end up on that list for complete bullshit reasons and appeals are pretty much impossible. The fact that the qualifications are being on the list are so vaguely defined pretty much allows the government to put whoever they want on it, which means they can't fly, and if you guys had your way, they wouldn't be able to exercise their second amendment rights either. 

Imagine Dems taking this position ten years ago when they were anti-war and suspicious of domestic anti-terror efforts by the Republican government. :lol How things change once a party gets into power, then suddenly government agencies can do no wrong.

(Yes I'm aware Trump thinks it's a good idea, there are many things I don't agree with him on)


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## FriedTofu (Sep 29, 2014)

So people on the terror watchlist should be allowed to fly?


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## Miss Sally (Jul 14, 2014)

Reaper said:


> Yeah. That's pretty much how the religious mind works. Sin and temptation is either the work of the devil (christians) or a test from Allah (muslim). The diff is that christians are told that their redemption lies in confessing and begging forgiveness, while Muslim redemption lies in both begging forgiveness or committing a "good deed" that will counter the sin. And since the religion is extremely contradictory on what it considers a good deed we have religiously motivated killing in Islam more so than any other religion.


Which is why i laugh when people say this has nothing to do with Religion, the attack was Religiously based, there is no denying that. I understand the shooter must have had a horrible time but no excuse for killing a bunch of people. Read if it wasn't for one of the bouncers letting people out he could have killed even more people.


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## Reaper (Sep 4, 2013)

Miss Sally said:


> Which is why i laugh when people say this has nothing to do with Religion, the attack was Religiously based, there is no denying that. I understand the shooter must have had a horrible time but no excuse for killing a bunch of people. Read if it wasn't for one of the bouncers letting people out he could have killed even more people.


It's a complex series of motives like any other killer. Perhaps more complicated in this guy's case than other killers. To try to nail it down as one and only one motive or agenda is a problem. We like our killers to be simple minded buffoons and not intelligent functional members of society because it makes us feel safer.

Well this guy was incredibly intelligent, high functioning, model citizen before he snapped. He fooled everyone from the FBI to gun sellers. He's the most dangerous kind of criminal. The one that does nothing to betray himself before the act. Someone who was trained to be a weapon and not just use weapons. 

He even checked online to see if his shooting went viral or not. He was in complete control from the beginning to the end. The kind of guy you can do nothing to prevent from killing people if he wants to.


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## Miss Sally (Jul 14, 2014)

Reaper said:


> It's a complex series of motives like any other killer. Perhaps more complicated in this guy's case than other killers. To try to nail it down as one and only one motive or agenda is a problem. We like our killers to be simple minded buffoons and not intelligent functional members of society because it makes us feel safer.
> 
> Well this guy was incredibly intelligent, high functioning, model citizen before he snapped. He fooled everyone from the FBI to gun sellers. He's the most dangerous kind of criminal. The one that does nothing to betray himself before the act. Someone who was trained to be a weapon and not just use weapons.
> 
> He even checked online to see if his shooting went viral or not. He was in complete control from the beginning to the end. The kind of guy you can do nothing to prevent from killing people if he wants to.


Of course but his end motive was to show his sacrifice for Allah, which is why i say it is clearly a Religious based attack tho it's not the only motive behind it but the largest segment of it seems to be Religious. You're right guys like that are the most dangerous, they are the ones that end up causing the most damage because they bid their time. If it wasn't for that person letting more people out we could see somewhere with 70+ dead. A man like this no amount of gun laws or anything would have prevented this.


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## Reaper (Sep 4, 2013)

Yeah I agree that people saying this has nothing to do with Islam or his religious beliefs are completely wrong. But it's still important to point out that it wasn't the only reason. 

Sent from my D6616 using Tapatalk


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## birthday_massacre (Jan 30, 2013)

CamillePunk said:


> You guys are pretty fucking terrible liberals if you think being on the terror watch list is justification for revoking a person's rights. :lol You can end up on that list for complete bullshit reasons and appeals are pretty much impossible. The fact that the qualifications are being on the list are so vaguely defined pretty much allows the government to put whoever they want on it, which means they can't fly, and if you guys had your way, they wouldn't be able to exercise their second amendment rights either.
> 
> Imagine Dems taking this position ten years ago when they were anti-war and suspicious of domestic anti-terror efforts by the Republican government. :lol How things change once a party gets into power, then suddenly government agencies can do no wrong.
> 
> (Yes I'm aware Trump thinks it's a good idea, there are many things I don't agree with him on)


Well its nice you think that potential terrorist should legally be able to get guns.


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## CamillePunk (Feb 10, 2011)

birthday_massacre said:


> Well its nice you think that potential terrorist should legally be able to get guns.


Again, blind faith that the government knows what it's doing when they put people on the list, and that no innocent people are having their rights suppressed. Yawn, fake liberal is fake as hell.


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## RetepAdam. (May 13, 2007)

CamillePunk said:


> You guys are pretty fucking terrible liberals if you think being on the terror watch list is justification for revoking a person's rights. :lol You can end up on that list for complete bullshit reasons and appeals are pretty much impossible. The fact that the qualifications are being on the list are so vaguely defined pretty much allows the government to put whoever they want on it, which means they can't fly, and if you guys had your way, they wouldn't be able to exercise their second amendment rights either.


I have a friend who was briefly under investigation from the NSA because he was trying to get one of our friends to go out on a Thursday, so he typed up a mock email from our school's chancellor saying that classes were all cancelled the next day and sent it to her as a joke. She forwarded it along to her sorority, and all of a sudden, the government was asking him things like "WHY DIDN'T YOU WANT THEM TO GO TO CLASS THE NEXT DAY?" Can't imagine that it was a coincidence that he happened to be brown with the last name Ahmed.

So, yeah. You can end up under investigation for some dumb shit, and the government can pretty much put anyone they want on a "watch list" at any time for just about any reason. Don't think there's all that much oversight. That having been said, these are people that we don't even let use an airplane, yet apparently it's okay for them to possess firearms? :wtf2



> Imagine Dems taking this position ten years ago when they were anti-war and suspicious of domestic anti-terror efforts by the Republican government. :lol How things change once a party gets into power, then suddenly government agencies can do no wrong.
> 
> (Yes I'm aware Trump thinks it's a good idea, there are many things I don't agree with him on)


I understand that you're naturally going to be suspicious of the government and for good reason, to be honest. But this is one of those things where I revert back to my blanket position of it not really mattering what we do if the government wants to turn on us. They have drones, which they've admitted to using on U.S. soil. Doesn't much matter how many guns we have. We're not winning that one.

Given that the Patriot Act is already in place, I'd rather they actually do something with that information — like denying people who they suspect of having ties to organized terrorism the right to buy assault rifles — than just sit on it because it's okay to pry into every aspect of their private life, but god forbid we deprive them of their lethal weapons!


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## Reaper (Sep 4, 2013)

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/or...ever-evaluated-orlando-shooter-mateen-n594976



> The global security firm that employed Orlando shooter Omar Mateen is facing additional scrutiny over whether it adequately screened his fitness to be a gun-carrying licensed security guard, this time from a psychologist who says she never administered a key mental health evaluation of him when he was hired in 2007.
> 
> Dr. Carol Nudelman said in a statement to NBC News that she had nothing to do with the psychological evaluation of Mateen that the security firm submitted to the state of Florida on Sept. 6, 2007. The firm stated in its submission that Nudelman had conducted the test.
> 
> ...



A corrupt private security company? Nah. That's not supposed to exist in America, right?


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## BruiserKC (Mar 14, 2010)

Reaper said:


> Yeah I agree that people saying this has nothing to do with Islam or his religious beliefs are completely wrong. But it's still important to point out that it wasn't the only reason.
> 
> Sent from my D6616 using Tapatalk


The Justice Department tried to change the narrative with the partial release of the 911 tapes and eliminating those portions that mentioned Mateen's dedication to Islam. They have egg all over their faces now, funny when even the lamestream liberal media outlets like the Washington Post and New York Times condemn what they are doing.


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## FriedTofu (Sep 29, 2014)

http://www.univision.com/univision-...rism-says-man-who-claims-he-was-gunmans-lover

So a random guy just claimed to be the shooter's gay lover in the past, saying the attack was motivated by revenge against gay Latinos. Not sure if credible because the timeline just seem too convenient, but could provide a clue into why he choose to target the nightclub.


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## Miss Sally (Jul 14, 2014)

FriedTofu said:


> http://www.univision.com/univision-...rism-says-man-who-claims-he-was-gunmans-lover
> 
> So a random guy just claimed to be the shooter's gay lover in the past, saying the attack was motivated by revenge against gay Latinos. Not sure if credible because the timeline just seem too convenient, but could provide a clue into why he choose to target the nightclub.


Anything convenient I always write off or have doubts about. People are shady and will do anything for attention or for an agenda.


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## FriedTofu (Sep 29, 2014)

Miss Sally said:


> Anything convenient I always write off or have doubts about. People are shady and will do anything for attention or for an agenda.


Apparently there is CCTV footage of the shooter at the hotel for their alleged trysts. It is a sad world where TMZ is 'breaking' the news....


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## gamegenie (Aug 14, 2011)

This story has so many tangles, 

I also read that one of the latino male companions the nightclub shooter was sleeping with was HIV+ positive and didn't tell him till after they had their "tryst". 

When the nightclub shooter found of this news that the guy could possibly infected him, it sent him over to wanting to seek revenge. 


I'm not sure why this story seem so untrue to some in this thread, if you were anything worth the salts you claim to be 'Christian conservative', you know this type of promiscuous behavior is quite prevalent in the homosexual community.


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## FITZ (May 8, 2007)

CamillePunk said:


> You guys are pretty fucking terrible liberals if you think being on the terror watch list is justification for revoking a person's rights. :lol You can end up on that list for complete bullshit reasons and appeals are pretty much impossible. The fact that the qualifications are being on the list are so vaguely defined pretty much allows the government to put whoever they want on it, which means they can't fly, and if you guys had your way, they wouldn't be able to exercise their second amendment rights either.
> 
> Imagine Dems taking this position ten years ago when they were anti-war and suspicious of domestic anti-terror efforts by the Republican government. :lol How things change once a party gets into power, then suddenly government agencies can do no wrong.
> 
> (Yes I'm aware Trump thinks it's a good idea, there are many things I don't agree with him on)


Seems weird that the Democrats are now the ones that want to take away rights from Muslims. 

I mean let's be honest about who's going to end up on the watch lists. It's not white people.


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## gamegenie (Aug 14, 2011)

FITZ said:


> Seems weird that the Democrats are now the ones that want to take away rights from Muslims.
> 
> I mean let's be honest about who's going to end up on the watch lists. It's not white people.


True, but if they give that list the same bureaucratic scrutiny say the Bureau of Motor Vehicles does with their National Driver Registry, then all bets are off, everyone will end up on the list.


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## Reaper (Sep 4, 2013)

BruiserKC said:


> The Justice Department tried to change the narrative with the partial release of the 911 tapes and eliminating those portions that mentioned Mateen's dedication to Islam. They have egg all over their faces now, funny when even the lamestream liberal media outlets like the Washington Post and New York Times condemn what they are doing.


TBF, I think this is the first time we've had a complete narrative and the media as well as people have had a chance to get a complete picture of the man. He hasn't been completely villainized into a one dimensional charicature of the evil muzzie homophobe. There was a complex set of intertwining factors that created this monster and at this point a lot of people have accepted that unlike most terror cases this one isn't entirely blameable on radicalization either. There's some radicalization there, but it's not all of it. There's some revenge here, some racism, some personal trauma at having had sex with potentially HIV+ gays (and we all know that a lot of HIV+ gay men continue to have sex with non-affected gay me), some religion, some hatred of himself amongst a host of different factors. 

Though, I have to admit that if a man chooses to die as a terrorist as opposed to living as a homosexual, there's some religious motivation there as well. To me it seems more like him hoping to die and labeled as a terrorist and that his homosexuality wouldn't come out into the open ... 

Interestingly, he's not a rare homosexual afghan so his sexuality isn't as unique as he probably ended up believing being isolated from the rest of afghan culture ... Open homosexuality amongst muslim Afghans is understood to be much more rampant than it is amongst other muslims (and I know this because we lived in close proximity to afghans in Pakistan and just know that they have more openly homosexual men than other muslim cultures which are even more repressive). I think him being isolated from others of his ilk as a third culture kid made his circumstances unique to him and created the mess in his mind that it did.


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## LaMelo (Jan 13, 2015)

That random guy situation is weird.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## birthday_massacre (Jan 30, 2013)

FITZ said:


> Seems weird that the Democrats are now the ones that want to take away rights from Muslims.
> 
> I mean let's be honest about who's going to end up on the watch lists. It's not white people.


How are they trying to take rights away from Muslims exactly? Are you trying to claim that only Muslims can be terrorist? DO TELL


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## WeAllGotHacked (Jun 16, 2016)

So sad


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## FITZ (May 8, 2007)

birthday_massacre said:


> How are they trying to take rights away from Muslims exactly? Are you trying to claim that only Muslims can be terrorist? DO TELL


I would bet anything that Muslims are disproportionately on the terrorist watch list. And I would bet a good amount of them are on the watch list for no good reason.


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## CamillePunk (Feb 10, 2011)

BM having no idea about any of the civil rights issues with the terror watch list. :westbrook3 Fake liberal.


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## skarvika (Jun 2, 2014)

What special interest group disgusts me and/or pisses me off more on a regular basis...jury's still out on that one!


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## Miss Sally (Jul 14, 2014)

I got told by someone that the Orlando shooting is a hoax. lol


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## birthday_massacre (Jan 30, 2013)

FITZ said:


> I would bet anything that Muslims are disproportionately on the terrorist watch list. And I would bet a good amount of them are on the watch list for no good reason.


And if that is true, why do you think that is? Couldn't be from all the fear mongering from the right could it? They are the ones that want to ban Muslims from coming into the country. 

Most people on the terrorist watch list are not even US citizens so the gun ban wouldn't even affect 99% of the people on the list. Only about 5,000 people on the terrorist watch list are Americans. 

Do you think the mentally ill should be able to get a gun? Do you think oh we can't take away their 2nd amendment right to have a gun.


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## Vox Machina (May 22, 2014)

Miss Sally said:


> I got told by someone that the Orlando shooting is a hoax. lol


Some people will believe anything is a hoax. Like the moon landing. Or that Bigfoot sighting that's totally real.

In all seriousness, trying to disregard what happened in Orlando as some sort of hoax is just disrespectful to everyone that unfortunately lost their life.


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## Chrome (Jan 11, 2012)

Miss Sally said:


> I got told by someone that the Orlando shooting is a hoax. lol


That happens with every shooting nowadays it seems.


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## CamillePunk (Feb 10, 2011)

FBI has found no evidence that Omar Marteen was gay: 

http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-orlando-gay-fbi-20160623-snap-story.html


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## gamegenie (Aug 14, 2011)

It seems the FBI can't find anything because it's not difficult to delete your gay account, uninstall the gay app, delete your mobile browsers cache and cookies, forms, that stored info of you reading up on gay things etc. 

The FBI would have to do harder investigation which they most likely won't attempt as it will take longer and cost money. 

I'm talking contacting the gay app companies and demanding log files, contact the mobile carrier provider and ask for IP log files tied to that specific phone and match them up. 

Oh it's possible to still be tracked down, but it's much harder as it takes more effort and time which I doubt the FBI is going to do.


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## Pratchett (Jan 9, 2013)

Sol Katti said:


> Some people will believe anything is a hoax. Like the moon landing. Or that Bigfoot sighting that's totally real.
> 
> In all seriousness, trying to disregard what happened in Orlando as some sort of hoax is just disrespectful to everyone that unfortunately lost their life.


There are too many people who, for reasons not even apparent to themselves, are unable to mentally accept that horrible things like this happen in the world. So it is just easier for them to pretend it doesn't happen so they can try and keep their personal worldview intact. I don't look at it as disrespectful as much as I think these people are just ignorant. Willfully so, which is the worst kind.


And did I just read that there is a gay app? I still have so much to learn about technology, it seems. I don't think I am ever going to catch up and figure out what the hell is going on or why.


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## birthday_massacre (Jan 30, 2013)

Pratchett said:


> There are too many people who, for reasons not even apparent to themselves, are unable to mentally accept that horrible things like this happen in the world. So it is just easier for them to pretend it doesn't happen so they can try and keep their personal worldview intact. I don't look at it as disrespectful as much as I think these people are just ignorant. Willfully so, which is the worst kind.
> 
> 
> And did I just read that there is a gay app? I still have so much to learn about technology, it seems. I don't think I am ever going to catch up and figure out what the hell is going on or why.


Its a gay dating app. Its just like plenty of fish, ok cupid, match etc but just for gay people.


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## Pratchett (Jan 9, 2013)

birthday_massacre said:


> Its a gay dating app. Its just like plenty of fish, ok cupid, match etc but just for gay people.


OK, that makes sense. Here I was thinking about stuff like the flashlight and radio apps on my phone and thinking WTF? I need to get out more.


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