# What Happened to Wrestling??



## Teemu™ (12 mo ago)

You see memes like this floating around all the time. Lapsed fans wondering what happened to their favorite form of entertainment. I see people throwing around "lack of steroids", but that doesn't explain the whole situation. Why are men over six feet tall no longer getting into pro wrestling? Your theories?

My theory is that alpha males no longer see wrestling as attractive, and instead are opting to go to MMA and UFC. All that is left are basemenet nerds who grew up as wrestling marks, and it's just the 5'2 guys who never got invited to parties, so all they had was watching wrestling at home alone. The 6'4 Chads were out drinking and partying with their friends, they don't know what wrestling is.

People saying size doesn't matter are just wrong. If you read the comments whenever people post memes like this, you see it's people laughing at wrestling.

And before anyone attacks me for being a wrestling-watching basement nerd myself, correct, I am, but it doesn't mean I want it in my fantasy escapism. If I want to see average, ugly people, I'll go to the mall.

At some point in history, there was a shift where fans went from wanting to see larger than life and what they themselves are not to wrestling fans just wanting people that look like them on TV so that they can self-insert.

One of these models drew, while the other one has the smallest fanbase in the history of North American wrestling.

What happened?

Adam Cole's entrance theme is good, though.


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## God Movement (Aug 3, 2011)

Wrestling has always had smaller guys, and they absolutely have a place. You can't control your height, you're born with it and that's it. However, you can control your physique, you can control going to the gym, you can control your diet, as a performer, as a supposed "athlete" in a choreographed "sport", can you at the very least, look the part? This is your job, your livelihood. You don't have to go to an office, you're a performer, perform and look the part.

It definitely shows laziness. Adam Cole becoming defensive on Twitter over this speaks volumes of his level of commitment. I'll expand on this a little bit - I think guys like Kevin Owens would be pushed a lot harder in the "other company" if he got in better shape too. Drew McIntyre left the WWE, got in amazing shape, came back and received a push of all pushes. Why wouldn't he? He looks like a superhero. AEW management doesn't play by the same principles, and that's fine, there are multiple ways to skin a cat. But overall, I think that mystique is missing from a lot of these guys, they have great mic work, great in-ring skills, but they just don't look like... athletes?

Daniel Bryan isn't the tallest guy, and yet, he has an aura about him, and yet, he is in great shape so you buy into him. These two need to look themselves in the mirror, and again, it's not just these two, it's a lot of people across the two major wrestling promotions.


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## 3venflow (Feb 3, 2019)

Eight of UFC's nine weight classes are 205lbs or below, or what you'd call 'small guys'. Presentation is more important than size. PAC is a short guy but does anyone doubt he's a credlble wrestler?

Again, it's all presentation. HOOK is hovering around 6'0" and 200lbs, which would make him one of UFC's heaviest guys beneath the heavyweight division.

Conor McGregor is 5'9" and 155lbs but a bigger world star than Reigns will ever be.

Also, WWE is topped by big guys but their popularity has continued to shrink.


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## Geeee (Aug 9, 2010)

Oscar DeLa Hoya and Manny Pacquiao changed this perception IMO

Also, I would not consider Sid and Vader huge draws. Although, Sid did main event two horrendous WrestleManias...


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## Teemu™ (12 mo ago)

I'm more interested in the why. It's such a huge, visible shift.


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## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

There was a thread on this last week too


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## Teemu™ (12 mo ago)

LifeInCattleClass said:


> There was a thread on this last week too


And there needs to be one next week, as well.


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## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

Teemu™ said:


> And there needs to be one next week, as well.


lol, i’ll look forward to your thread then


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## Missionary Chief (Aug 1, 2021)

Blame the fans.


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## Sad Panda (Aug 16, 2021)

To be fair on this message board Vader would be dismissed as a smelly fat fuck. And Sid a rambling, incoherent softball playing malcontent whose sloppy in the ring. Let’s be honest.


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## Whoanma (Apr 5, 2016)

Sad Panda said:


> To be fair on this message board Vader would be dismissed as a smelly fat fuck. And Sid a rambling, incoherent softball playing malcontent whose sloppy in the ring. Let’s be honest.


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## Kenny's Ghost (Nov 23, 2020)

Kevin Sullivan put a Satanic curse on it. Come. Let us taste the cosmic cookie.


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## MEMS (Jun 18, 2013)

Like literally every other form of sports and entertainment, things change. Imagine an NFL fan went to sleep in 1986 after watching the Bears Super Bowl season, then woke up to the Chiefs-Bills game last week. Unrecognizable.

Why are pro wrestling fans so perplexed by this?


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## MEMS (Jun 18, 2013)

Teemu™ said:


> I'm more interested in the why. It's such a huge, visible shift.


Honestly, it has a lot to do with Shawn Michaels.


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## Prized Fighter (Aug 31, 2016)

MEMS said:


> Like literally every other form of sports and entertainment, things change. Imagine an NFL fan went to sleep in 1986 after watching the Bears Super Bowl season, then woke up to the Chiefs-Bills game last week. Unrecognizable.
> 
> Why are pro wrestling fans so perplexed by this?


Exactly. American sports have trended towards faster/quicker styles of play for a while now. Wrestling is just doing the same thing. It is why you have NBA centers shooting threes consistently now and why the NFL has gone to quicker paced open offenses.


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## Dr. Middy (Jan 21, 2015)

You seem more like the body-guy type fan if anything.

Is it important to an extent where I think somebody like Adam Cole could at least have some more muscle and be more cut? Sure, I think he legit looks bad right now. But do I scoff at anybody who is under 6'' or under like 230lbs? No, because I'm not entertained just by a physique or how somebody looks. You have bodybuilding for that, and wrestling needs a lot more than just a look.

But this kind of tweet feels like cherrypicking to the Nth degree. If that was a picture of Bret Hart and HBK against a picture of like Bryan and Omega, would there be really much difference at all?

Realistically though, the argument died when you started talking about alpha and betas.


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## Teemu™ (12 mo ago)

Dr. Middy said:


> You seem more like the body-guy type fan if anything.
> 
> Is it important to an extent where I think somebody like Adam Cole could at least have some more muscle and be more cut? Sure, I think he legit looks bad right now. But do I scoff at anybody who is under 6'' or under like 230lbs? No, because I'm not entertained just by a physique or how somebody looks. You have bodybuilding for that, and wrestling needs a lot more than just a look.
> 
> ...


People always say body guy when, honestly, I'm more of a height guy. Yea, body comes into it, but Shawn Michaels was all you need, really. Again, I'm interested in the why. Why did wrestlers get short? Forget the bodies, why did they get short?


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## MEMS (Jun 18, 2013)

Been watching wrestling since the 80s. I’ve seen it all. I’ve never been as entertained as I am watching these smaller guys put on these 25-35 minute matches. I was amazed watching the things HBK did to himself and these modern era guys have taken that to another level. These matches have all the drama and tension mixed with the incredible high spots. Love it. I’ll take Cole or Gargano or Bryan over Wardlow any day. Not that a guy like Wardlow doesn’t have a spot on the show. But there’s only so much a guy like that can do that’s entertaining to me.


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## The XL 2 (Sep 13, 2016)

It's not so much that they're small, it's that they look like a joke. Adam Cole is built like a slightly overweight high school sophomore who eats a little too many potato chips. And his work consists of kicking out of everything and trading spots with his opponents. How the fuck is that entertaining or to be taken seriously whatsoever?


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## Dr. Middy (Jan 21, 2015)

Teemu™ said:


> People always say body guy when, honestly, I'm more of a height guy. Yea, body comes into it, but Shawn Michaels was all you need, really. Again, I'm interested in the why. Why did wrestlers get short? Forget the bodies, why did they get short?


If I could guess, I think people just changed their habits when it came to how they wanted or needed wrestlers to look, while putting more emphasis on other aspects of wrestling and not as much on raw physical appearance. Even for people who wanted somebody they can identify with, most 80s guys were never even reachable for most of the population. I mean nowadays, most wrestlers up to the top guys are much better at working a match than their predecessors for the most part, which I think is a lot more important now than it was then. 

Honestly, you could say that what wrestling was in the 80s is what superhero films are today.


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## shandcraig (Mar 23, 2008)

what happened is cool people dont wanna be wrestlers anymore, End of story. Just your average joe video game playing nerd. Desperate to be loved for exactly who they are. sad generation. Though i give OC credit for playing an odd character at least. Imagine given the chance to be a performer in a creative arts, you get to be any character and not play yourself. But your'e so sad along with this generation that you desperately would prefer to be loved for the average joe. Everyone back then mostly played a character, fit the part and executed well. These types have no interest in this business now. There is so many other options in life for these types now. This business has lost so many fans over the years. Whats left of it is desperate fans themselves that are so blood thirsty for wrestling in general,That everyone is at the point where we just love everyone that is put in front of us for the time being. Last nights fans was a perfect example of whats wrong with the state of the business. The way fans just dont care anymore and wanna be happy and go to these events and protect every last wrestler and jerk off to them.


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## Teemu™ (12 mo ago)

Dr. Middy said:


> If I could guess, I think people just changed their habits when it came to how they wanted or needed wrestlers to look, while putting more emphasis on other aspects of wrestling and not as much on raw physical appearance. Even for people who wanted somebody they can identify with, most 80s guys were never even reachable for most of the population. I mean nowadays, most wrestlers up to the top guys are much better at working a match than their predecessors for the most part, which I think is a lot more important now than it was then.
> 
> Honestly, you could say that what wrestling was in the 80s is what superhero films are today.


But what does have to do with height?


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## shandcraig (Mar 23, 2008)

Teemu™ said:


> But what does have to do with height?



all of what he said is not true, People have not changed any habits. Look at every form of content in the world and compare it to wrestling. All those forms still thrive with exactly whats always worked. Dark serious shows till do the best, fake nonsense shows flop. Yet when it comes to wrestling its a special case, Fans are desperate to enjoy and get so behind whatever. I blame the indies for this, This has all formed into what they do. Like saying in real life society dont want sexuality which is far from the truth. Sex sells more than ever and in fact is far more extreme than it ever was in the past.


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## Dr. Middy (Jan 21, 2015)

Teemu™ said:


> But what does have to do with height?


I think you just wanted to make this thread to have people post who agree 100% with you, which shanecraig did.


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## The XL 2 (Sep 13, 2016)

Dr. Middy said:


> If I could guess, I think people just changed their habits when it came to how they wanted or needed wrestlers to look, while putting more emphasis on other aspects of wrestling and not as much on raw physical appearance. Even for people who wanted somebody they can identify with, most 80s guys were never even reachable for most of the population. I mean nowadays, most wrestlers up to the top guys are much better at working a match than their predecessors for the most part, which I think is a lot more important now than it was then.
> 
> Honestly, you could say that what wrestling was in the 80s is what superhero films are today.


Wrestlers now are definitely not better workers than the previous generations, they're better at rushing through sloppy looking spots, bumping like shit, not selling anything, and kicking out of everything, but not better at working, that's for sure.


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## Teemu™ (12 mo ago)

Dr. Middy said:


> I think you just wanted to make this thread to have people post who agree 100% with you, which shanecraig did.


No, it's just that what you said had nothing to do with height, hah. No intention to shit on you. You mainly talked about body and muscles. I'm asking why are there so many sub 6 feet tall wrestlers in mainstream North American wrestling today.

Are men in general getting shorter? Is the gene pool fucked? Or are tall men simply doing something else with their time than getting into pro wrestling? Lack of steroids has nothing to do with height, for instance. Changing of habits doesn't have to do with height. Other than of course there are certain habits as children that do affect height, such as getting a sufficient amount of protein and whatnot. But that has nothing to do with this.


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## Freelancer (Aug 24, 2010)

Most of the current guys dont take steroids like guys in the past did because they want to live past 50.


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## DUD (Feb 21, 2021)

I'm not somebody that believes every wrestler needs to look like Vince's Wet Dream but a balance does need to be met. Some of the people Miro, Will Hobbs, Lance Archer and Brian Cage have lost to previously are just stupid.


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## LongPig666 (Mar 27, 2019)

It evolved.


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## Teemu™ (12 mo ago)

Freelancer said:


> Most of the current guys dont take steroids like guys in the past did because they want to live past 50.


Again, nothing to do with height. Steroids don't make you taller.


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## Dr. Middy (Jan 21, 2015)

The XL 2 said:


> Wrestlers now are definitely not better workers than the previous generations, they're better at rushing through sloppy looking spots, bumping like shit, not selling anything, and kicking out of everything, but not better at working, that's for sure.


I mean if you believe that then sure. I'm not gonna change your mind. 



Teemu™ said:


> No, it's just that what you said had nothing to do with height, hah. No intention to shit on you. You mainly talked about body and muscles. I'm asking why are there so many sub 6 feet tall wrestlers in mainstream North American wrestling today.
> 
> Are men in general getting shorter? Is the gene pool fucked? Or are tall men simply doing something else with their time than getting into pro wrestling? Lack of steroids has nothing to do with height, for instance. Changing of habits doesn't have to do with height. Other than of course there are certain habits as children that do affect height, such as getting a sufficient amount of protein and whatnot. But that has nothing to do with this.


I think back in the 80s and historically Vince looked at height as being WAY more important, so you just ended up seeing a lot of wrestlers that were tall as fuck, like well over 6''. He even evolved with time, and knew you couldn't just only sign a bunch of tall guys. So it's really just perception given the time period really.


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## Freelancer (Aug 24, 2010)

Teemu™ said:


> Again, nothing to do with height. Steroids don't make you taller.


Not everybody was 7 foot tall back in the day.


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## Teemu™ (12 mo ago)

Dr. Middy said:


> I mean if you believe that then sure. I'm not gonna change your mind.
> 
> 
> 
> I think back in the 80s and historically Vince looked at height as being WAY more important, so you just ended up seeing a lot of wrestlers that were tall as fuck, like well over 6''. He even evolved with time, and knew you couldn't just only sign a bunch of tall guys. So it's really just perception given the time period really.


Yea maybe. Or is there just a smaller selection of tall guys to pick from these days, and Vince has been forced to deal with that?


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## shandcraig (Mar 23, 2008)

Dr. Middy said:


> I think you just wanted to make this thread to have people post who agree 100% with you, which shanecraig did.


im just pointing out that in reality nothing has changed in every business. Difference is people have a voice now and becoming over sensitive about it when they dont live up to it. So wrestling fans i think are just wanting to except every single thing put in front of them un like any other form of entertainment.


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## Teemu™ (12 mo ago)

Freelancer said:


> Not everybody was 7 foot tall back in the day.


I'm talking being under 6 feet tall. 6 feet is the cutoff point because under 6 feet is when average begins. And wrestlers should be above average, at main event level. The average depends on the country, of course, but I guess it's about 5'10 or 5'9 or something mostly in the west. I'm 6 feet-6'1, and I'm generally just a tad taller than the majority of guys in the grocery store when I keep track of this. In Finland.


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## Fergal (Apr 29, 2021)

For years WWE listened to Indy fans (HHH specifically) and signed a bunch of no name indy darlings that have no presence or charisma and their audience is now less than a quarter what it was a decade ago.
The last decade or so made all bigger guys move away wrestling because of smark crowd .
Now E is trying to fix that by hiring bigger athletes and training them which they should have started long ago.
They lost a lot of casual fans in this time period by trying to please the IWC.


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## Teemu™ (12 mo ago)

Fergal said:


> For years WWE listened to Indy fans (HHH specifically) and signed a bunch of no name indy darlings that have no presence or charisma and their audience is now less than a quarter what it was a decade ago.
> The last decade or so made all bigger guys move away wrestling because of smark crowd .
> Now E is trying to fix that by hiring bigger athletes and training them which they should have started long ago.
> They lost a lot of casual fans in this time period by trying to please the IWC.


I never understood placating the fans that were already there, and were gonna be there anyway, when it was the fickle, hard to keep casual fans that you should have catered to.


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## Mustard (Sep 18, 2021)

It's not the bodies that's the problem. It's the lack of great storytelling, and of telling those stories in the ring in particular. I think the powers that be don't care much about it compared to how they can make money in other ways.


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## Sad Panda (Aug 16, 2021)

shandcraig said:


> im just pointing out that in reality nothing has changed in every business. Difference is people have a voice now and becoming over sensitive about it when they dont live up to it. So wrestling fans i think are just wanting to except every single thing put in front of them un like any other form of entertainment.


Can you elaborate on “nothing has changed in every business”? Everything is constantly evolving with times, trends etc. I’m just looking to get a better sense on what you believe has not changed in the past 20-30 years.


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## Dr. Middy (Jan 21, 2015)

shandcraig said:


> im just pointing out that in reality nothing has changed in every business. Difference is people have a voice now and becoming over sensitive about it when they dont live up to it. So wrestling fans i think are just wanting to except every single thing put in front of them un like any other form of entertainment.


I mean if that was the case WWE would still be packing arenas and having sellouts all of the time, and would still be doing like peak AE style TV, when in reality it was a boom period that they went through where they were smack dab in the middle of relevant pop culture. They still have a place there, but it is much smaller than it used to be. 

But I don't really buy the "nothing has changed in every business" idea really. I mean the music industry specifically is constantly changing as to what the general public's main tastes and preferences are.


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## shandcraig (Mar 23, 2008)

Sad Panda said:


> Can you elaborate on “nothing has changed in every business”? Everything is constantly evolving with times, trends etc. I’m just looking to get a better sense on what you believe has not changed in the past 20-30 years.



of course there is some things that evolve. Fact is every other platform like movies,tv and even video games. The ones that succeed are still based off the old ways, the traditional vision, the stereotypes. People act like stereotypes is not real when its beyond real. You have the bullshit people bitching for change and than because these media companies have so much money they can afford to do them sometimes. So many times when they release content that they hear is what it should be flop. Content that thrives is still the traditional ways. Even women are a perfect example. Sure its nice they can wrestle now and have more of a chance to show case. Reality is they are still mostly selling a sex appeal. Look at all the top women, All based around looks. Just small examples. Evolving is important but it dont mean you dont continue to do what works.


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## CaféDeChampion (Sep 27, 2021)

It's simple, it got exposed. 

There used to be a time when saying " Wrestling is fake " would get you beat up by the boys and fans would be really pissed off. Now, fans and wrestlers use that every time. That they don't have to take it seriously because it's all fake anyway.

What kind of athlete with great genetics would waste their time in a self-deprecating business like this when they could train for an actual respected path?


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## shandcraig (Mar 23, 2008)

Dr. Middy said:


> I mean if that was the case WWE would still be packing arenas and having sellouts all of the time, and would still be doing like peak AE style TV, when in reality it was a boom period that they went through where they were smack dab in the middle of relevant pop culture. They still have a place there, but it is much smaller than it used to be.
> 
> But I don't really buy the "nothing has changed in every business" idea really. I mean the music industry specifically is constantly changing as to what the general public's main tastes and preferences are.



look at my example above this comment. Of course many things have evolved but the core fundamental that sells is the same. Thats why the majority of fans left the business 20 years ago. Business has slowly been moving away from this.


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## Teemu™ (12 mo ago)

CaféDeChampion said:


> It's simple, it got exposed.
> 
> There used to be a time when saying " Wrestling is fake " would get you beat up by the boys and fans would be really pissed off. Now, fans and wrestlers use that every time. That they don't have to take it seriously because it's all fake anyway.
> 
> What kind of athlete with great genetics would waste their time in a self-deprecating business like this when they could train for an actual respected path?


I think you hit right on the head here.


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## shandcraig (Mar 23, 2008)

CaféDeChampion said:


> It's simple, it got exposed.
> 
> There used to be a time when saying " Wrestling is fake " would get you beat up by the boys and fans would be really pissed off. Now, fans and wrestlers use that every time. That they don't have to take it seriously because it's all fake anyway.
> 
> What kind of athlete with great genetics would waste their time in a self-deprecating business like this when they could train for an actual respected path?



It was widely known it was fake even mid 90s. People just got behind characters and direction back then. This is another reason why i keep bringing up the issue in aew with them having no direction or vision. What is aew ? Like how can you define them. You cant really other than saying its this match fest company. They dont have a identity or brand that stands out. This is actually the same issue with wwe for the past 15 years. Lost its sense of identity. Just a general brand now


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## Teemu™ (12 mo ago)

shandcraig said:


> It was widely known it was fake even mid 90s. People just got behind characters and direction back then. This is another reason why i keep bringing up the issue in aew with them having no direction or vision. What is aew ? Like how can you define them. You cant really other than saying its this match fest company. They dont have a identity or brand that stands out. This is actually the same issue with wwe for the past 15 years. Lost its sense of identity. Just a general brand now


This is a good point. I could always tell you what RoH was. I could even tell you what TNA was pre-2010. I was just thinking about it today that I'm not sure what AEW is lol. It's modern nerd wrestling, but then it's also sports entertainment and then it's comedy and then it's pro wrestling. The segments on Dynamite don't exist in the same, cohesive universe, but are instead all their own universes, which just happen to take place during the same 2 hour window.


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## shandcraig (Mar 23, 2008)

Teemu™ said:


> This is a good point. I could always tell you what RoH was. I could even tell you what TNA was pre-2010. I was just thinking about it today that I'm not sure what AEW is lol. It's modern nerd wrestling, but then it's also sports entertainment and then it's comedy and then it's pro wrestling. The segments on Dynamite don't exist in the same, cohesive universe, but are instead all their own universes, which just happen to take place during the same 2 hour window.


What you gotta respect with TNA is they were always open to change too. Always open to a new identity a new direction.


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## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

Geeee said:


> Oscar DeLa Hoya and Manny Pacquiao changed this perception IMO
> 
> Also, I would not consider Sid and Vader huge draws. Although, Sid did main event two horrendous WrestleManias...


This and Keanu Reeves with the Matrix movies.

Prior to Reeves, the lead in action movies was always living on Dianabol and Test cycles to look as full and large as possible. Keanu changed the game…



Teemu™ said:


> View attachment 116240
> 
> 
> You see memes like this floating around all the time. Lapsed fans wondering what happened to their favorite form of entertainment. I see people throwing around "lack of steroids", but that doesn't explain the whole situation. Why are men over six feet tall no longer getting into pro wrestling? Your theories?
> ...


I love that you made a point to finish this long-winded thought by bringing up Adam Cole just in case anyone was unsure who your ire was directed at… haha


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## Ger (Jul 20, 2018)

Does it really matter anymore, how tall or big wrestlers are, when they come out like this ...










... and afterwards people tell me, that the tshirt costs 1000$ ?


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## Flex2007 (Jul 27, 2007)

3venflow said:


> Eight of UFC's nine weight classes are 205lbs or below, or what you'd call 'small guys'. Presentation is more important than size. PAC is a short guy but does anyone doubt he's a credlble wrestler?
> 
> Again, it's all presentation. HOOK is hovering around 6'0" and 200lbs, which would make him one of UFC's heaviest guys beneath the heavyweight division.
> 
> ...


There's no way Hook is 6ft and 200lbs, thats the size of Seth Rollins. They must've added atleast 20lbs to his weight like they did with Adam Cole he looks no more than175lbs.


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## becauseimafingcaveman (Apr 14, 2021)

3venflow said:


> Eight of UFC's nine weight classes are 205lbs or below, or what you'd call 'small guys'. Presentation is more important than size. PAC is a short guy but does anyone doubt he's a credlble wrestler?
> 
> Again, it's all presentation. HOOK is hovering around 6'0" and 200lbs, which would make him one of UFC's heaviest guys beneath the heavyweight division.
> 
> ...


"Weight classes" is the key term. Jon Jones would demolish Conor McGregor.

Wrestling needs a viable cruiserweight division. Let these guys get over as stars without insulting our intelligence.


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## shandcraig (Mar 23, 2008)

bdon said:


> I love that you made a point to finish this long-winded thought by bringing up Adam Cole just in case anyone was unsure who your ire was directed at… haha


his comment what stood out to me is "His entrance theme is good though" This is what I have been claiming is the entire driving force behind this dude. Fans are so sad these days they are desperate to get themselves over.Thats entirely what cole does. Some good theme song with some nerdy ass catch phrase to get fans over. It feels like the biggest reason why people get behind this dude. Look at all the trendy wrestlers the past 12 years and these type of things are the driving force sadly.


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## Oiky (Oct 23, 2014)

Wrestling 100% has a place for smaller guys

But,imo good shape and conditioning is imperative,just because youre not a 6'6 behemoth doesnt mean you need to look like a noodle,smaller guys who dont have the genetics to be mass machines can absolutely look lean & ripped and fit but the fact is some just look like utter s***t


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## shandcraig (Mar 23, 2008)

Oiky said:


> Wrestling 100% has a place for smaller guys
> 
> But,imo good shape and conditioning is imperative,just because youre not a 6'6 behemoth doesnt mean you need to look like a noodle,smaller guys who dont have the genetics to be mass machines can absolutely look lean & ripped and fit but the fact is some just look like utter s***t



I dont even care about size really or shape. Anyone can get over if they have the right persona and character. This is the real struggle with modern wrestlers. Look at all the guys with great characters that broke through or were just popular in general. During a Era when it was really about big guys.I think size is not the issue at all with what has happened to wrestling. Even give marko stunt for an example, If that guy was not packaged like a fucking loser and didnt dress like a female he could get over if it was something good. But instead his the shortest fucking person with one of the worst characters in aew and the worst ring gear. The guy wore fucking capri tights, That says it all.Capri even look fucking stupid on women. Rey mysterious was liked in wcw but he had a good character for his size. Just random examples.

These small guys carry themselves like they are average joes, Because they are.


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## shandcraig (Mar 23, 2008)

Ger said:


> Does it really matter anymore, how tall or big wrestlers are, when they come out like this ...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Exactly my point in my other comment. The problem with the business today is far beyond size. Look at how night and day someone can be all based on how they carry themselves and who they choose to be. To many wrestlers try to be like this


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## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

I don't care about height but at a minimum you should look like you regularly exercise, have a tan and look like an adult. AEW has way too many pasty white skinny blokes that look like children.


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## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

Teemu™ said:


> People always say body guy when, honestly, I'm more of a height guy. Yea, body comes into it, but Shawn Michaels was all you need, really. Again, I'm interested in the why. Why did wrestlers get short? Forget the bodies, why did they get short?


higher paced and faster style - you can’t do the moves and bumps that the Bucks do for instance with a lot of mass or height

and that style sells

simple


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## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

LifeInCattleClass said:


> higher paced and faster style - you can’t do the moves and bumps that the Bucks do for instance with a lot of mass or height
> 
> and that style sells
> 
> simple


Not really. Seen it once seen it a million times.


----------



## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

Chip Chipperson said:


> Not really. Seen it once seen it a million times.


we‘re literally watching a company built on that style (well, i am - you’re just a tourist )

and its been a popular style on the indies for 10+ years. people in the indies gravitate towards what makes them money

high paced, big spot wrestling is what makes them $$$

doing thay with a lot of muscle every week and not getting injured is hard


----------



## ProWresBlog (Apr 6, 2021)

Real sports used to pay less, so many athletes from them used to compete in wrestling. Now, sports pay a lot more than wrestling does and real athletes pursue jobs in those instead.

People in wrestling found out they could make easy money by training people to wrestle and since a lot of smaller people could never make it in real sports, they started trying to get into wrestling. These people like the Joey Janela's, Player Uno's, Marko Stunt's and others would have never been allowed in decades ago, since they are small, don't have legit backgrounds and don't look like wrestlers. But indy promoters wanted to make money and happily trained these people to wrestle. They also needed bodies on the card and lowered their standards and since they weren't drawing much anyway, it mattered less.

Dave Meltzer convinced 2 generations of people now that all that matters in wrestling is the in-ring portion and convinced people that flips, highspots and dangerous moves were far more important than looking realistic, selling and mastering the basics like punches and working holds. Japan and Mexico did more work that had this stuff and compared to 80's and 90's American wrestling, it was a lot more exciting for more hardcore fans. WWF, later WWE and WCW also had more house shows and even if they wanted to do this stuff, couldn't because it increased the chance of injury. Indies could though and still can because the guys work once or twice a week and have 5 days of rest. So again, that style became more appealing for hardcore fans and just more common overall.

In the 2000's, UFC wanted to air The Ultimate Fighter. Spike asked WWE for permission since it could steal fans away and WWE allowed them. The Ultimate Fighter was a smash hit and was on right after Raw. It stole a bunch of fans from wrestling and now UFC is much bigger than WWE is. WWE also didn't help matters by having nearly 2 bad decades of booking since the Attitude Era ended.

WWE also became a publicly traded company and got more sponsors/shareholders. This made them less likely to take risks and made them stop doing more raunchy and controversial angles/gimmicks and more programming aimed at younger audiences.

In 2015-2016, the internet just changed as Donald Trump ran for election. Platforms and websites became intolerant to anyone right of Stalin and started banning people for anything and everything. A lot of wrestling website owners happen to be left wing and joined the witch hunt for non-existent nazi's. DVDVR, PWO, OfficialFan, Wrestlecrap, Wrestling Observer, /wooo/ and of course r/squaredcircle started just banning people for no real reason including yours truly. I saw more people get banned during 2015-2016 than I ever saw in my life and got banned from almost all of those sites. So those places all became filled with left-wing people with really only this site and /pw/ being places for right-wing people and they start having a larger say over what wrestling is.

These wrestling fans push for (but don't necessarily like) less kayfabe in wrestling, less realism(because you see the Undertaker was involved in stupid angles), more women in wrestling, more intergender stuff, less White people in wrestling, more people who are smaller or don't look like wrestlers usually look and more comedy. Anyone who dares to fight against it gets harassed, banned and potentially even cancelled if they can.

So that's how we got here. Where does it go from here? Watch DDT. You're going to see more intergender matches. You're going to continue to see women get as much time and maybe more as the men do. You're going to see a lot more comedy as wrestlers become less skilled and less able to do traditional wrestling. You're going to continue to see matches and movesets get more dangerous. You will see less controversial angles and more generic angles and gimmicks. You're going to see kids wrestle on live TV and I legitimately expect to see dogs and inanimate objects like refrigerators be put on TV. *I'm not joking either.*

The business isn't going to die overnight, but it's going to continue to get less popular. It's going to keep losing about 50,000-100,00 fans a year and in 10 years, they will be talking about how wrestling was so much more popular in 2022 than it is in 2032. It's also going to have significantly more problems finding audiences as they have to try and appeal to completely different demographic groups who will want completely different things.


----------



## The Raw Smackdown (Jan 8, 2017)

This topic is honestly getting redundant. 

At some point smaller guys got into wrestling. It didn't do anything to make wrestling worse either. In the past when the business was hot it just happened to have taller dudes and that's all there is to it. everyone being 6' is not going to change anything. It's not going to bring back fans that don't exist anymore and hasn't for YEARS now. it's not going to validate anything about you OP or anyone else. As been said, nearly every form of entertainment has changed, wrestling was going to be no different. Either Deal or don't watch. 

What really needs to be talked about is how wrestling in general is gonna really evolve. It's been the same shit since the 90's. I feel like Lucha Underground point the way to how wrestling should be now but we see how that ended and I feel like fans in general will moan about it anyways despite that format giving them what they've been whining about for years.


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

ProWresBlog said:


> Real sports used to pay less, so many athletes from them used to compete in wrestling. Now, sports pay a lot more than wrestling does and real athletes pursue jobs in those instead.
> 
> People in wrestling found out they could make easy money by training people to wrestle and since a lot of smaller people could never make it in real sports, they started trying to get into wrestling. These people like the Joey Janela's, Player Uno's, Marko Stunt's and others would have never been allowed in decades ago, since they are small, don't have legit backgrounds and don't look like wrestlers. But indy promoters wanted to make money and happily trained these people to wrestle. They also needed bodies on the card and lowered their standards and since they weren't drawing much anyway, it mattered less.
> 
> ...


Bravo. Great fucking post that doesn’t just blame “wrestling” but focuses on the societal shifts that kind of forced wrestling in that direction.


----------



## The_It_Factor (Aug 14, 2012)

I have a strange (or maybe not so strange) theory…..

Wrestling fans became the wrestlers.

Back in the day, a lot of the guys that got into wrestling weren’t even really into wrestling. They were football players/athletes that got injured (or couldn’t cut it at a professional level), or guys that got spotted at the gym, and parlayed that into professional wrestling.

I can’t tell you how many shoot interviews I’ve seen where the wrestler says, “so and so saw me at the gym and kept asking me to come try out” or “yeah, so and so was a big name, we all knew him from the gym and talked him into training with us”. Others, from Vader to Goldberg to Farrooq came from football backgrounds and weren’t able to follow their true passion, but were the prototype for wrestling at that time. 

The door into wrestling wasn’t as open back then, so it seems like It was a select few that got in. Now, wrestlers are the guys that grew up wanting to become wrestlers…. Not professional athletes or bodybuilders whose careers didn’t pan out.


----------



## shandcraig (Mar 23, 2008)

bdon said:


> Bravo. Great fucking post that doesn’t just blame “wrestling” but focuses on the societal shifts that kind of forced wrestling in that direction.


fake societal shifts. Plenty of companies try to do it and always flop. Wrestling is just a weird unique business in comparison, So its harder to die lol.


----------



## shandcraig (Mar 23, 2008)

The_It_Factor said:


> I have a strange (or maybe not so strange) theory…..
> 
> Wrestling fans became the wrestlers.
> 
> ...



which part of my point about how the fans just mark out for themselves over Coles cool theme song and stupid fucking catch phrases. That pretty much get the fans over more than him. This crap is what defined wwe the past 12 years. That sorta stuff does not actually help the business or the wrestlers. Think about how many average dudes wwe tried to push the past 10 years with some shit that got the fans over. Fast forward and most of them are bland in aew. To me when the fans need to be more over is a sign of a bad product.


----------



## The Raw Smackdown (Jan 8, 2017)

MEMS said:


> Like literally every other form of sports and entertainment, things change. Imagine an NFL fan went to sleep in 1986 after watching the Bears Super Bowl season, then woke up to the Chiefs-Bills game last week. Unrecognizable.
> 
> Why are pro wrestling fans so perplexed by this?


Because when it comes down to it they wanna see the same old shit they grew up with.


----------



## Geert Wilders (Jan 18, 2021)

“Lapsed fans” this guy is literally got wrestling in his @ lmfao 

OP being the player hater as normal.


----------



## MEMS (Jun 18, 2013)

The Raw Smackdown said:


> Because when it comes down to it they wanna see the same old shit they grew up with.


WWE on Peacock. Endless amounts of big dudes with muscles fake punching each other and doing rest holds.


----------



## Stylebender (Oct 12, 2019)

There's always been small guys in wrestling and there's plenty of big guys today. However today its more about who is populair with the fans and talented. Back in the days bigger guys would be pushed because the promoters liked the. Plus there is the lack of steroids. 

I dont think size is the issue. There has been plenty of smaller guys that have made money. You look at the biggest stars post Cena and its been Bryan,Punk,Becky and Roman. Did they do 80s or 90s numbers? No. Nobody will today. 

The issue is how people are presented among many other things.


----------



## The Raw Smackdown (Jan 8, 2017)

MEMS said:


> WWE on Peacock. Endless amounts of big dudes with muscles fake punching each other and doing rest holds.


Yeah but you know..people don't wanna take a simple step to go there despite taking the time to long on here and bitch about wrestlers who aren't 6' and are somehow destroying the business.


----------



## Ghost Lantern (Apr 11, 2012)

It's all Bill Dundee's fault....


----------



## thisissting (Aug 14, 2018)

Teemu™ said:


> View attachment 116240
> 
> 
> You see memes like this floating around all the time. Lapsed fans wondering what happened to their favorite form of entertainment. I see people throwing around "lack of steroids", but that doesn't explain the whole situation. Why are men over six feet tall no longer getting into pro wrestling? Your theories?
> ...


The main audience for wrestling now is video playing cosplaying anti social nerds and therefore this is where we see indy wrestlers coming from. The proper athletes go into better sports.


----------



## WrestleFAQ (May 26, 2020)

It's that flippy-dippy workrate mark mentality that parasites like Dave Meltzer created. The Internet made it widespread and mainstream, when it was once limited to basement-dwelling dweebs who subscribed to physical copies of the Wrestling Observer. We've now reached the point where those backwards dweebs make up the loudest segment of fans, and wrestling bookers would rather be praised by them and Meltzer than put on a show that appeals to normal, cool people.


----------



## Seth Grimes (Jul 31, 2015)

Whilst I agree with you on the fact that less bigger guys want to be a wrestler, because as I've said before, there's a tonne of other sports they'd rather do now. There is the aspect of the negativity online. People are far, far more critical now, than they were back in the day. Most people didn't have the internet during the Attitude Era, even during Ruthless Aggression the internet was nowhere near as widespread as it is now, with nearly every person online. Going back through wrestling in the 90's there was so much trash especially during years like 94/95. If we had the internet back then, holy fuck this message board would be even worse than it is now, I imagine most of us would end up hating it so much, that we'd just stop watching. I just think it's human nature for us to find the things we dislike, and critique things as a way of conversation, which effectively does create overly negative feelings towards something. For a fact, we are influenced by one another's feelings towards something. If you slightly dislike something, and see someone else disliking the same thing and making good points that you didn't think about, you'd go from slightly disliking it to hating it. I am certain that if we weren't all online, we'd enjoy wrestling a bit more than we already do. Ofc the constant ruining of surprises online, and breaking of kayfabe doesn't help, but yeah.


----------



## Accipiter (Sep 9, 2021)

Men are not shorter today, quite the opposite. From a pure height perspective using unbiased measurements, Omos is either taller or the exact height of Andre the Giant. Both are about 7'2", but Andre might have been closer to 7'. That has nothing to do with skill, look, or the number of tall wrestlers, but the max height hasn't gone down.


----------



## yeahbaby! (Jan 27, 2014)

Firstly I think more big fat guys like a Vader should get back in to wrestling. That's missing.

Secondly the culture in the 90s from Sid's/Vader's for Vince especially was to find bodybuilders or the like and train them to wrestle (in terms of the puffed up bitches). Neither of those guys were draws however despite the OP. WCW's numbers in 1993 were horrific. Now you have more people that really grew up wrestling fans.

You want really tall guys though? Check out Omos, that huge charisma machine.


----------



## Rozzop (Aug 26, 2019)

Society has changed. 

Just look into an AEW crowd or even a WWE crowd in 2022 compared to twenty years ago? 

What is the difference? 

Look at all the reality shows on TV and compare the difference between now and TV from twenty years ago. 

Walk down the street and compare the majority of people you pass from twenty years ago? 

Where are the alpha males? It's not how tall you are. It's how you carry yourself. It's your aura. 

Not that alpha males don't exist anymore. Of course they do. It's just in present day wrestling you actually have to look quite hard to find them.


----------



## $Dolladrew$ (Jun 15, 2020)

3venflow said:


> Eight of UFC's nine weight classes are 205lbs or below, or what you'd call 'small guys'. Presentation is more important than size. PAC is a short guy but does anyone doubt he's a credlble wrestler?
> 
> Again, it's all presentation. HOOK is hovering around 6'0" and 200lbs, which would make him one of UFC's heaviest guys beneath the heavyweight division.
> 
> ...


Ahem.....mic drop,reality check, and bitchslap all in one fucking bravo bruh.


----------



## Teemu™ (12 mo ago)

Rozzop said:


> Society has changed.
> 
> Just look into an AEW crowd or even a WWE crowd in 2022 compared to twenty years ago?
> 
> ...


No, height has to do with being an alpha male. You're not an alpha male if you're 5'7.


----------



## Rozzop (Aug 26, 2019)

Teemu™ said:


> No, height has to do with being an alpha male. You're not an alpha male if you're 5'7.


So Benoit and Guerrero are not alpha males?

Dynamite Kid?

Tazz? You trying to tell me Tazz is not an alpha male lol

To a lesser extent Rey Mysterio?

Can you see the difference in these to say someone like Jungle Boy or Adam Cole?


----------



## The Raw Smackdown (Jan 8, 2017)

Teemu™ said:


> No, height has to do with being an alpha male. You're not an alpha male if you're 5'7.


First off...what the hell is an alpha male?


----------



## RainmakerV2 (Nov 8, 2017)

McGregor is 155 for for weigh in day. He walks around around 200 and does all his media, appearances etc at 200 pounds. He's 155 for weigh in day and 175 by the time he steps in the cage. It's a dumb thing to say that "Conor McGregor is 155 pounds. " He's 155 pounds for maybe 2 days a year.


----------



## Teemu™ (12 mo ago)

The Raw Smackdown said:


> First off...what the hell is an alpha male?


An alpha male is the top-ranking male in a mammalian social group. The modern world's slang term for it is Chad. It's the male that is the females' ultimate first choice.


----------



## shandcraig (Mar 23, 2008)

The Raw Smackdown said:


> First off...what the hell is an alpha male?


----------



## bluecapon (11 mo ago)

Teemu™ said:


> View attachment 116240
> 
> 
> You see memes like this floating around all the time. Lapsed fans wondering what happened to their favorite form of entertainment. I see people throwing around "lack of steroids", but that doesn't explain the whole situation. Why are men over six feet tall no longer getting into pro wrestling? Your theories?
> ...


Smarks is what happened


----------



## VodooPimpin (Oct 10, 2021)

There’s nothing wrong with smaller guys in wrestling but there’s a problem when a lot of guys are small. You still need the big Guys to even it out and have the Rey mysterio vs Brock type matches. The thing is wrestlers are known As big jacked dudes and that isn’t the case anymore which may be the reason that some is so unbelievable.


----------



## DoctorWhosawhatsit (Aug 23, 2016)

Teemu™ said:


> View attachment 116240
> 
> 
> You see memes like this floating around all the time. Lapsed fans wondering what happened to their favorite form of entertainment. I see people throwing around "lack of steroids", but that doesn't explain the whole situation. Why are men over six feet tall no longer getting into pro wrestling? Your theories?
> ...












So we're just going to pretend guys like Stone Cold, Pedro Morales, Shawn Michaels, Roddy Piper, Brett Hart, Bob Backlund, Gorgeous George, Ric Flair, and countless others many would consider GOATS were 6'10", 320lbs?

For fuck sakes, Ultimate Warrior, one of the favorites of homophobic repressed homosexuals, was only 6'2"

It's time this "wrestlers are so small now" farce was put to bed.


----------



## BlueEyedDevil (Dec 26, 2019)




----------



## midgetlover69 (Nov 27, 2016)

The Raw Smackdown said:


> First off...what the hell is an alpha male?


Im an alpha male


----------



## Bananas (Jun 18, 2017)

LOL at using alpha males unironically in 2022.


----------



## Because I'm Cute (11 mo ago)

Fake news, pro' wrestling brings all the boys to the yard.


----------



## BrrrGoesWooo! (Mar 29, 2021)

The Raw Smackdown said:


> First off...what the hell is an alpha male?





Teemu™ said:


> An alpha male is the top-ranking male in a mammalian social group. The modern world's slang term for it is Chad. It's the male that is the females' ultimate first choice.






























I always knew dolphins were really just a bunch of flippy vanilla fish. I liked my WWF when they were pushing lions and tigers and shit.. what happened to that huh?! Now they're pushing spotted monkeys? They couldn't draw a stack of sashimi if their life depended on it.


----------



## thorn123 (Oct 10, 2019)

The thing that struck me from that pic is neither sid or Vader are in the HOF. #what a joke


----------



## the44boz (Apr 29, 2014)

The fan base went from drunk ******** to liberal nerds


----------



## Goku (Feb 25, 2007)

The Raw Smackdown said:


> First off...what the hell is an alpha male?


----------



## Greatsthegreats (Apr 15, 2015)

what happened? Heavyweights got replaced by middleweights and lightweights, just like pro boxing and MMA, its a shame that the mainstream feds just won't make it official

Oh by the way, *Alternate Reality Wrestling? what's that about?* i love alternate reality and wrestling


----------



## the_flock (Nov 23, 2016)

Geeee said:


> Oscar DeLa Hoya and Manny Pacquiao changed this perception IMO
> 
> Also, I would not consider Sid and Vader huge draws. Although, Sid did main event two horrendous WrestleManias...


You say that but Sid and Vader were bigger draws than anyone in the industry today.



Freelancer said:


> Most of the current guys dont take steroids like guys in the past did because they want to live past 50.


The steroids aren't what killed them. It's the lifestyle, popping painkillers (which still happens today) Cocaine, Alcohol etc



LifeInCattleClass said:


> higher paced and faster style - you can’t do the moves and bumps that the Bucks do for instance with a lot of mass or height
> 
> and that style sells
> 
> simple


Clearly it doesn't sell.


----------



## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

the_flock said:


> Clearly it doesn't sell.


clearly - the arenas are empty every week and the shows don’t rank in the top 5 every week

And no-one is buying

its all imaginary


----------



## Ultimo Duggan (Nov 19, 2021)

shandcraig said:


> his comment what stood out to me is "His entrance theme is good though" This is what I have been claiming is the entire driving force behind this dude. Fans are so sad these days they are desperate to get themselves over.Thats entirely what cole does. Some good theme song with some nerdy ass catch phrase to get fans over. It feels like the biggest reason why people get behind this dude. Look at all the trendy wrestlers the past 12 years and these type of things are the driving force sadly.


Obviously everyone knows this but…

The Attitude Era was mostly guys with over entrance music and a sing-song catchphrase. The matches were shorter than most entrances. That was the worst time ever for matches in the WWF.


----------



## biggiefoot (Jan 22, 2020)

Prized Fighter said:


> Exactly. American sports have trended towards faster/quicker styles of play for a while now. Wrestling is just doing the same thing. It is why you have NBA centers shooting threes consistently now and why the NFL has gone to quicker paced open offenses.


NBA and NFL avverage height and weight are both higher than they were in the 80's and 90's, though the growth has tapered and isn't as much as decades prior, but wrestling is wayyyy down. NBA and NFL players do not look like little guys that never work out.

Laughable comparison. Go lookk at the size of modern wrestlers vs those two sports, it's laughable lmao. The Average NFL player is around 6'2 and 247 pounds. And that's including the skill positions, and other really small players.

The NBA is at 6'7 and 222 pounds right now. 

WWE probably has the biggest roster in terms of height and weight, and even though they add 2-3 inches and as much as 40 pounds of exaggerated weight on guys, they probably still don't approach those numbers, but more importantly, they are WAY WAY down compared to their own history, and the other sports aren't. 

People would take the NFL a lot less serious if all the current stars were 4-5 inches shorter and 50-100 pounds lighter to the guys in the past, lol.


----------



## Rocklamps9 (Jun 19, 2021)

Teemu™ said:


> View attachment 116240
> 
> 
> You see memes like this floating around all the time. Lapsed fans wondering what happened to their favorite form of entertainment. I see people throwing around "lack of steroids", but that doesn't explain the whole situation. Why are men over six feet tall no longer getting into pro wrestling? Your theories?
> ...


Pretty much this for me. I stopped watching around 2008 or so. Probably because all of my favorites were retiring and I kind of got hooked on UFC.


----------



## Geeee (Aug 9, 2010)

the_flock said:


> You say that but Sid and Vader were bigger draws than anyone in the industry today.


I'd say that Sid and Vader peaked between Hulkamania and the Monday Night Wars. So, really a similar period for the business to now.

Vader however, was a massive draw in Japan.


----------



## greasykid1 (Dec 22, 2015)

When it comes to this seemingly neverending discussion, I think that what "happened" to wrestling is that people realized that in general, the really big wrestlers, while they might look impressive because they're tall or wide, are mostly absolute dogshit at wrestling.

The fact that OP is using Sid and Vader as examples tells most of the story here. Even for their time, they weren't good wrestlers. They threw stiff punches and looked good, true. But the modern pro wrestling expectation is that the wrestlers actually do wrestling moves.

We do get the occasional Big Lad who can actually wrestle. Brock, Drew ... but they're in the minority because people want to see talent these days, not "wrestlers" like Omos whose entire gimmick is "Tall Bloke".


----------



## Robert Gibson's Lazy Eye (11 mo ago)

shandcraig said:


> It was widely known it was fake even mid 90s. People just got behind characters and direction back then. This is another reason why i keep bringing up the issue in aew with them having no direction or vision. What is aew ? Like how can you define them. You cant really other than saying its this match fest company. They dont have a identity or brand that stands out. This is actually the same issue with wwe for the past 15 years. Lost its sense of identity. Just a general brand now


People knew it was fake even before then. Vince testified in front of the Jersey Senate in 1989 that wrestling was not a competitive sport. Millions of 80s kids' illusions were shattered in that moment, mine included.


----------



## Mustard (Sep 18, 2021)

The Raw Smackdown said:


> First off...what the hell is an alpha male?


Someone very stereotypically masculine. In other words, strong and powerful, the financial breadwinner in the house, threatens or beats up anyone who disrespects him, loves sports, never shows emotional weakness to others. If injured, they get on with it as best they can and don't complain.

This sort of man is not common these days, nor encouraged, for good reasons. The bottling up of emotions was particularly bad. However, I'd argue it's gone too far the other way in some circles.



shandcraig said:


> It was widely known it was fake even mid 90s. People just got behind characters and direction back then.


The question is why has that gone these days? I think there are two different types of smarks, the first sort who knows about kayfabe and backstage goings on yet loves immersing themselves in the kayfabe product, while the second sort always want to expose kayfabe and bring it down. The second sort are not good. Telling very good stories (which are kayfabe, or blending kayfabe with real life sometimes) is as vital to a great wrestling product as the quality of matches, if not more so.

Imagine watching films and the second sort of smarks saying "This isn't real. These characters are not real, they are being played by other people with completely different real personalities".


----------



## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

Teemu™ said:


> No, height has to do with being an alpha male. You're not an alpha male if you're 5'7.


Eh I don't know about that. James Dean is a sex symbol, known for being an "alpha male" and he was like 5'6 or something. Tom Cruise is rumoured to be 5'4 - 5'5 and I'd say he's pretty "alpha", lol.

A 5'7 wrestler that is absolutely jacked is fine in my opinion.


----------



## Teemu™ (12 mo ago)

Chip Chipperson said:


> Eh I don't know about that. James Dean is a sex symbol, known for being an "alpha male" and he was like 5'6 or something. Tom Cruise is rumoured to be 5'4 - 5'5 and I'd say he's pretty "alpha", lol.
> 
> A 5'7 wrestler that is absolutely jacked is fine in my opinion.


Why, then, does Cruise stand on boxes, and why do his co-actors stand bow-legged in movies? Why do directors go out of their way to create an illusion that Cruise is taller than he is? If his height doesn't matter, that is. Because it does matter, and everyone knows it. You can't be an action hero and be 5'5 and have it be on clear display in the movie. It's a flaw that needs to be hidden.


----------



## shandcraig (Mar 23, 2008)

Mustard said:


> The question is why has that gone these days? I think there are two different types of smarks, the first sort who knows about kayfabe and backstage goings on yet loves immersing themselves in the kayfabe product, while the second sort always want to expose kayfabe and bring it down. The second sort are not good. Telling very good stories (which are kayfabe, or blending kayfabe with real life sometimes) is as vital to a great wrestling product as the quality of matches, if not more so.
> 
> Imagine watching films and the second sort of smarks saying "This isn't real. These characters are not real, they are being played by other people with completely different real personalities".


My point was its not about people knowing it fake to why it's gone down hill.


----------



## TeamFlareZakk (Jul 15, 2020)

Bobby "The Brain" Heenan said it best "the magic is gone"


----------



## Mustard (Sep 18, 2021)

To get the magic back, people must buy into the storylines seriously. If the writers and talent don't take it 100% seriously, why would the audience? Many people in the 1990s used to bash Bret Hart for "being a mark for himself" or "taking it too seriously".


----------



## Dizzie (Jun 22, 2019)

The Raw Smackdown said:


> This topic is honestly getting redundant.
> 
> At some point smaller guys got into wrestling. It didn't do anything to make wrestling worse either. In the past when the business was hot it just happened to have taller dudes and that's all there is to it. everyone being 6' is not going to change anything. It's not going to bring back fans that don't exist anymore and hasn't for YEARS now. it's not going to validate anything about you OP or anyone else. As been said, nearly every form of entertainment has changed, wrestling was going to be no different. Either Deal or don't watch.
> 
> What really needs to be talked about is how wrestling in general is gonna really evolve. It's been the same shit since the 90's. *I feel like Lucha Underground point the way to how wrestling should be now but we see how that ended and I feel like fans in general will moan about it anyways despite that format giving them what they've been whining about for years.*


.Lucha underground was ahead of it's time and is still far more relevant than all other wrestling products, in a time where people social media has had a negative impact on the general public's attention span, the 1 hour hour weekly episodic shows of lucha underground with no ppvs were ideal viewing and also with the huge success of game of thrones there were positive similarities with the lucha underground product as it was based on tribes, had a heavy supernatural influence and showed women to be able to compete with men in combat and further more in a time when wrestling is not seen as cool anymore with kayfabe a complete thing of the past the way lucha underground proudly didn't pretend to be real or sports like with it's presentation and closer to being produced more like Netflix's glow that it didn't insult anyone's intelligence.

Accidental double post


----------



## RainmakerV2 (Nov 8, 2017)

DoctorWhosawhatsit said:


> So we're just going to pretend guys like Stone Cold, Pedro Morales, Shawn Michaels, Roddy Piper, Brett Hart, Bob Backlund, Gorgeous George, Ric Flair, and countless others many would consider GOATS were 6'10", 320lbs?
> 
> For fuck sakes, Ultimate Warrior, one of the favorites of homophobic repressed homosexuals, was only 6'2"
> 
> It's time this "wrestlers are so small now" farce was put to bed.


No, but they looked and acted like grown men who wouldn't take shit. Compare that to an Adam Cole or Johnny Gargano. That's the problem. You don't have to be a giant, but you do have to have an in factor if you are a TOP guy.

Which is why guys like Cole are getting so much shit. It's not that he is the way he is, it's that he's the way he is AND he's undefeated and eventually is gonna fight for the world title. That's the issue. You notice no one gives Evil Uno any shit anymore because the Dark Order is hardly on TV in a predominant fashion anymore.


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## Teemu™ (12 mo ago)

DoctorWhosawhatsit said:


> So we're just going to pretend guys like Stone Cold, Pedro Morales, Shawn Michaels, Roddy Piper, Brett Hart, Bob Backlund, Gorgeous George, Ric Flair, and countless others many would consider GOATS were 6'10", 320lbs?
> 
> For fuck sakes, Ultimate Warrior, one of the favorites of homophobic repressed homosexuals, was only 6'2"
> 
> It's time this "wrestlers are so small now" farce was put to bed.


I've said multiple times in this thread that 6 feet flat is enough.


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## DoctorWhosawhatsit (Aug 23, 2016)

Teemu™ said:


> I've said multiple times in this thread that 6 feet flat is enough.


Now you're just drawing arbitrary lines.

AJ Styles is 5'11" does he suddenly not suck if he wears one inch lifts?


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## PG Punk (12 mo ago)

MEMS said:


> Honestly, it has a lot to do with Shawn Michaels.


And Bret Hart.



shandcraig said:


> what happened is cool people dont wanna be wrestlers anymore, End of story. Just your average joe video game playing nerd. Desperate to be loved for exactly who they are. sad generation. Though i give OC credit for playing an odd character at least. Imagine given the chance to be a performer in a creative arts, you get to be any character and not play yourself. But your'e so sad along with this generation that you desperately would prefer to be loved for the average joe. Everyone back then mostly played a character, fit the part and executed well. These types have no interest in this business now. There is so many other options in life for these types now. This business has lost so many fans over the years. Whats left of it is desperate fans themselves that are so blood thirsty for wrestling in general,That everyone is at the point where we just love everyone that is put in front of us for the time being. Last nights fans was a perfect example of whats wrong with the state of the business. The way fans just dont care anymore and wanna be happy and go to these events and protect every last wrestler and jerk off to them.


OK Boomer.


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## Teemu™ (12 mo ago)

DoctorWhosawhatsit said:


> Now you're just drawing arbitrary lines.
> 
> AJ Styles is 5'11" does he suddenly not suck if he wears one inch lifts?


It would help him draw for sure.


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## The Raw Smackdown (Jan 8, 2017)

Dizzie said:


> .Lucha underground was ahead of it's time and is still far more relevant than all other wrestling products, in a time where people social media has had a negative impact on the general public's attention span, the 1 hour hour weekly episodic shows of lucha underground with no ppvs were ideal viewing and also with the huge success of game of thrones there were positive similarities with the lucha underground product as it was based on tribes, had a heavy supernatural influence and showed women to be able to compete with men in combat and further more in a time when wrestling is not seen as cool anymore with kayfabe a complete thing of the past the way lucha underground proudly didn't pretend to be real or sports like with it's presentation and closer to being produced more like Netflix's glow that it didn't insult anyone's intelligence.


Reading this makes miss LU that much more. _Cries_


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## HBK Styles Ospreay (Jan 15, 2020)

Teemu™ said:


> View attachment 116240
> 
> 
> You see memes like this floating around all the time. Lapsed fans wondering what happened to their favorite form of entertainment. I see people throwing around "lack of steroids", but that doesn't explain the whole situation. Why are men over six feet tall no longer getting into pro wrestling? Your theories?
> ...


You know cool guys named Chad??? All the Chad's I ever met were dorky chess players


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## shandcraig (Mar 23, 2008)

You need to change this threads name to "what happened when"


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## DoctorWhosawhatsit (Aug 23, 2016)

Teemu™ said:


> It would help him draw for sure.


How'd it help Sheamus, Swagger, Del Rio, Jinder and all the other 6' and up guys?


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## Kopros_The_Great (Jun 26, 2014)

Bret screwed Bret.


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## thisissting (Aug 14, 2018)

So on sammis vlog this week we have cody and sammi palling about singing baby shark together. I mean really, fuck these modern goofballs that pretend to be wrestlers. Hardly anyone has any clue why kayfabe is important anymore. Not much wonder wrestling is an underground entertainment these days.


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## El Hammerstone (Jan 11, 2020)

thisissting said:


> So on sammis vlog this week we have cody and sammi palling about singing baby shark together. I mean really, fuck these modern goofballs that pretend to be wrestlers. Hardly anyone has any clue why kayfabe is important anymore. Not much wonder wrestling is an underground entertainment these days.


The use of the word "underground" makes it sound cooler than it really is.


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## DoctorWhosawhatsit (Aug 23, 2016)

thisissting said:


> So on sammis vlog this week we have cody and sammi palling about singing baby shark together. I mean really, fuck these modern goofballs that pretend to be wrestlers. Hardly anyone has any clue why kayfabe is important anymore. Not much wonder wrestling is an underground entertainment these days.


Who's the biggest star of all time again?

Oh yeah...



















This guy.

Don't talk to me about wrestlers being "clowns" these days.


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## H4L (Dec 22, 2009)

DoctorWhosawhatsit said:


> Now you're just drawing arbitrary lines.
> 
> AJ Styles is 5'11" does he suddenly not suck if he wears one inch lifts?


I’ve met AJ Styles. He’s not 5’11”.


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## DoctorWhosawhatsit (Aug 23, 2016)

H4L said:


> I’ve met AJ Styles. He’s not 5’11”.


Whats your point?

I've met Chris Jericho, he's not 6'.

By the OPs rational he sucks too.

Styles billed height is 5'11''.

Wrestlers' heights and weights have been inflated since wrestling was invented.

Or did you think Big Show was actually 500lbs?


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## H4L (Dec 22, 2009)

Just a simple error correction. Settle down junior.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## thisissting (Aug 14, 2018)

DoctorWhosawhatsit said:


> Who's the biggest star of all time again?
> 
> Oh yeah...
> 
> ...


That's acting, these modern guys are real life goofballs who don't understand the business.


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## DoctorWhosawhatsit (Aug 23, 2016)

thisissting said:


> That's acting, these modern guys are real life goofballs who don't understand the business.


Wrestling is acting. Whittle down your delusions of grandeur.


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## RainmakerV2 (Nov 8, 2017)

DoctorWhosawhatsit said:


> Now you're just drawing arbitrary lines.
> 
> AJ Styles is 5'11" does he suddenly not suck if he wears one inch lifts?



AJ styles











Adam Cole











Obviously not much difference at all.




.....


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## thisissting (Aug 14, 2018)

Hogan in a fairy outfit looked more threatening lol.


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## Soul Rex (Nov 26, 2017)

3venflow said:


> Eight of UFC's nine weight classes are 205lbs or below, or what you'd call 'small guys'. Presentation is more important than size. PAC is a short guy but does anyone doubt he's a credlble wrestler?
> 
> Again, it's all presentation. HOOK is hovering around 6'0" and 200lbs, which would make him one of UFC's heaviest guys beneath the ghfheavyweight division.
> 
> ...


UFC has weight classes to make it fair, small guys would look ridiculous fighting heavyweights if UFC just had the same wrestling sistem where everybody fights everybody.

If UFC didn't have weight classes, Conor Mcgregor wouldn't be a star, he would be a fucking joke with a negative record and getting often Mauled by guys like Nganou.

Fix your shit, put all the midgets in AEW apart from the main event scene or star building a weight class for them, because watching fucking manlets like Adam Cole compete for world titles drives casuals fans away.


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## Kenny's Ghost (Nov 23, 2020)

How many times are we gonna have this fucking thread


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## Loopee (Oct 12, 2009)

I'll elaborate this at another time, but the fans of wrestling in the 80s, 90s and 00s are the wrestlers of today. Culture changed, people across the board got smaller, more introverted as a society etc. 

It's more than wrestling, but it's the culture 90s and 00s wrestling bred that somewhat led to guys feeling like they lack star power.


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## Rocklamps9 (Jun 19, 2021)

Soul Rex said:


> UFC has weight classes to make it fair, small guys would look ridiculous fighting heavyweights if UFC just had the same wrestling sistem where everybody fights everybody.
> 
> If UFC didn't have weight classes, Conor Mcgregor wouldn't be a star, he would be a fucking joke with a negative record and getting often Mauled by guys like Nganou.
> 
> Fix your shit, put all the midgets in AEW apart from the main event scene or star building a weight class for them, because watching fucking manlets like Adam Cole compete for world titles drives casuals fans away.


This wasn't always the case. In the very beginning the UFC didn't have weight classes. It was kind of wild. I think like a year or two in they began implementing weight classes.


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## Soul Rex (Nov 26, 2017)

Rocklamps9 said:


> This wasn't always the case. In the very beginning the UFC didn't have weight classes. It was kind of wild. I think like a year or two in they began implementing weight classes.


It was practically a joke of a sport at first, a genre of vale tudo who late evolved to be a professional sport, but MMA without weight classes would mean no small guys would succeed.


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## Soul Rex (Nov 26, 2017)

People using Conor Mcgregor to defend their arguments of small guys are fucking ridiculous and I am tired of telling them they are contradicting themselves.

Mcgregor was one of the biggest featherweights of all time at 5 ft 9 and with a long windspan fighting short guys like Chad Mendez at 5 ft 6, he was actually bigger than most of his opponents.


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