# Ukraine Russian tension/crisis/invasion?



## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

i have a couple of mates in the Ukraine

they kinda seem like 'meh' about the whole thing - think it will be a non-event


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## FriedTofu (Sep 29, 2014)

Most of us are meh until the fighting start though. But I guess this not a concern unless they are in the separatist areas. I doubt Russia have the military to occupy any region that isn't already in their pockets.


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## Freelancer (Aug 24, 2010)

Putin is testing the west to see what he can get away with, just like he did with Crimea. So far, it's working for him. Since Ukraine isn't part of NATO, nothing other than sanctions will be done.


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## Ger (Jul 20, 2018)

The situation totally sucks. 



Freelancer said:


> Putin is testing the west to see what he can get away with, just like he did with Crimea. So far, it's working for him. Since Ukraine isn't part of NATO, nothing other than sanctions will be done.


You forgot many places where russia already started action in the last 20 years. Georgia, Chechnya, Kazakhstan, Armenia/Aserbaidschan.
Problem I see here is doing the blabla in the last few weeks, which made no sense from the beginning, because it was obvious nothing would be done. Crimea happened and russian money was still washed in London, Trump was believing Putin over his own government service, etc. The sanctions will hit the poor russian people and the common people in west europe over the prices, but no big criminal or evil doer will be really harmed. The outlaw situation in donetsk & Co is going on since years and nobody did something about that. Illegal and forced prostitution is just one of many examples. So ironically the situation for the people living in these regions doesn't get much worse.
Biden blocks any economic activity in the separated regions now ... was there any US economic activity in that outlaw region?


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## Irish Jet (Nov 15, 2011)

Hopefully when the Russians nuke the Brits off the map they’ll be considerate enough to try and spare Ireland the worst of the fallout. Post apocalyptic life seems like an adventure that I don’t want to miss. 

Let’s get this party started!


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## FriedTofu (Sep 29, 2014)

Freelancer said:


> Putin is testing the west to see what he can get away with, just like he did with Crimea. So far, it's working for him. Since Ukraine isn't part of NATO, nothing other than sanctions will be done.


Putin doesn't want a western style democracy to prove to be a viable alternative in the region. It is also the main reason why China will forever threaten Taiwan. Same reason why America imposes heavy sanctions against their pacific neighbors who elect socialist leadership. All the major powers don't want the smaller nations around them proving an alternative type of governance can lead to prosperity too. It will bleed into demands from their citizens to want change.


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## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

FriedTofu said:


> Most of us are meh until the fighting start though. But I guess this not a concern unless they are in the separatist areas. I doubt Russia have the military to occupy any region that isn't already in their pockets.


well, the figured its kinda like it would be in Georgia

the disputed region is sort of (from what they tell me - don't know how accurate) under Russian control anyway. So they expect guys to come in and as they said 'put some stickers on cars and some banners on walls' and it will be over

the region supposedly wants to be part of Russia and they as Ukranians don't care

i mean - take all of it with a pinch of salt - none of them are close to the area - they're on the other side of the country


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## Brittburgh (Oct 24, 2021)

Ukraine is one of the most corrupt nations on the planet 
I do not understand why people wish to help them.
Let Russia take Ukraine then the Balkans.
Maybe then the Albanians can be slowed down on supplying Europe with drugs 
I am anti war usually 
But since the collapse of the USSR
We've had Slabadan Milosevic try to rebuild Yugoslavia and cause chaos through out the 90s 
Nato had to bomb him out and charge him with war crimes 
I often think
Should we have allowed Russia to keep certain territory like Ukraine,Serbia,Albania and so on which have gone on to give the world so many issues since 

So all in all 
Let Russia take Ukraine 
Let the headache end once and for all


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## Dickhead1990 (Aug 31, 2016)

Brittburgh said:


> Ukraine is one of the most corrupt nations on the planet
> I do not understand why people wish to help them.
> Let Russia take Ukraine then the Balkans.
> Maybe then the Albanians can be slowed down on supplying Europe with drugs
> ...


The idea is and always has been to stop Russian advancement, hence the Crimean War in the 19th century. This region is hugely strategical to both sides and will cause huge problems if annexed by Russia. The most obvious would be the wave of refugees coming to Western Europe.

If Russia takes Ukraine, they will take more too.


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## FriedTofu (Sep 29, 2014)

LifeInCattleClass said:


> well, the figured its kinda like it would be in Georgia
> 
> the disputed region is sort of (from what they tell me - don't know how accurate) under Russian control anyway. So they expect guys to come in and as they said 'put some stickers on cars and some banners on walls' and it will be over
> 
> ...


Yeah most of the world think it will be just like that too. Russia don't have the resources to occupy the whole of Ukraine. But there is a non-zero chance things can get out of hand. It is all posturing until someone makes a wrong move and shit happens.


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## Lorromire (Jun 17, 2014)

I have a few mates in the Czech Republic, and they're all freaking out. If Russia does invade, which they've basically already started doing, then the Czech Republic will be forced into helping Ukraine, something the leaders of CR have already said they'd do. They apparently also have a service mandate during wartime, so my mates will most likely be forced to be soldiers. So, on their behalf, I'm worried for them.

Whether Ukraine is corrupt or not, you'd have to be a dunce to not acknowledge that Russia is doing an awful thing here.


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## InexorableJourney (Sep 10, 2016)

First it's Ukraine, then it's Poland, then it's the end of the World.


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## Brittburgh (Oct 24, 2021)

Dickhead1990 said:


> The idea is and always has been to stop
> 
> Russian advancement, hence the Crimean War in the 19th century. This region is hugely strategical to both sides and will cause huge problems if annexed by Russia. The most obvious would be the wave of refugees coming to Western Europe.
> 
> If Russia takes Ukraine, they will take more too.


The refugees will be dealt with and relocated across Europe 
Its an issue but one that would be best dealt with now to help stabilise the region 
Russia will then invade the Balkans 
Rebuild their former Yugoslavia
Serbia and Albania will be neutralised drug wise over the course of a decade 
And Russia might attack Turkey after.
They don't have enough strength to push into Northern Europe unless it's Lithuania,Latvia and Estonia but countries like Finland,Sweden and the rest of the Nordic countries have enough forces and back up from the rest of Europe to repel Russia 
So all in all 
the most unstable regions in Europe would fall back to Russian rule.
I would rather the long term solution over the quick and easy path
It can't be helped 
Over the past 1000 years 
Either France or Russia have started expansion plans which throws the rest of Europe into a panic.
The answer to that is 
Split those countries in two 
Have St Petersburg rule the north and Moscow the south
Same with Marseille and Paris 
Yet we have allowed those countries to retain their former lands time and time again expecting different results 
That is the very definition of insanity

In many ways George Patton had the right idea 
If Russia was to be stopped from expanding 
It was at the end of world war 2 when America had their armed forces in Europe 
That one mistake by Truman will cost Europe dearly


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## Mr. King Of Kings (May 16, 2006)

I guess the world elite need another crisis to scare people into submission. Hopefully nothing bad comes from it, but it's all so tiresome. Wake me up when the next circus starts.


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## Leviticus (May 1, 2020)

With so many countries actively against them and some even planning on send troops if they invade, Russia won't be dumb enough to actually invade, especially if Biden successfully gets Ukraine out into NATO. It would mean war with at least Canada, The US, the UK, and other NATO countries, which Russia can't win.


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## Mr. King Of Kings (May 16, 2006)

Leviticus said:


> With so many countries actively against them and some even planning on send troops if they invade, Russia won't be dumb enough to actually invade, especially if Biden successfully gets Ukraine out into NATO. It would mean war with at least Canada, The US, the UK, and other NATO countries, which Russia can't win.


There won't be an all out war, but I'm willing to bet that the Western countries will use this situation to engage in more self-destruction and ''protect'' its citizens with more insane policies. ''Our'' leaders have learned that most of us would gladly submit if it's in the name of safety or public health. What's happening in the West is basically a controlled demolition of our rights/freedoms and nationhood. One day we will be as unfree as China or Russia, and men like Vladimir Putin or Xi Jinping already know that. It's a big club, and you ain't in it.


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## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

InexorableJourney said:


> First it's Ukraine, then it's Poland, then it's the end of the World.


*northern hemisphere

nobody cares about us in Africa and LATAM mate

we're golden


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## Flairwhoo84123 (Jan 3, 2022)

It always 1938 Munich somewhere to some people, Russia for all it faults ,aren't going to invade Ukrainel. Russia will support the Seperatists in The Donbass region to keep the Ukraianian government bogged down until it cedes to Russia terms on NATO enlargement or it becomes some neutral country like a Finnland.

I doubt Putin would risk a nuclear confrontation by going any further to the Baltic states, Poland, or Romania, plus Ukraine not a Nato ally thus not worth American lives and treasure, if the Russians were to go into NATO countries, it a whole other situation, where Article 5 is involved, and war declared.


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## Dickhead1990 (Aug 31, 2016)

Brittburgh said:


> The refugees will be dealt with and relocated across Europe
> Its an issue but one that would be best dealt with now to help stabilise the region
> Russia will then invade the Balkans
> Rebuild their former Yugoslavia
> ...


That's all well and good, except a lot of those regions are in either NATO, the EU or both. This would result in us having to honour treaties. 

I don't quite understand the Peter and Moscow analogy here, along with Marseille and Paris. This won't solve any problems, especially as both countries consist of regional cultures with many different languages and identities within in the first place. Paris will still dominate, as will Moscow. The only thing you'd be doing is causing a civil war down the line when the issue for reunification arises.


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## Mr. King Of Kings (May 16, 2006)

LifeInCattleClass said:


> *northern hemisphere
> 
> nobody cares about us in Africa and LATAM mate
> 
> we're golden


China might want to have you in their soul-crushing social credit system though. Have fun trying to get on a bus when you don't have enough points. 

I think I'd rather prefer being nuked off this world.


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## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

Mr. King Of Kings said:


> China might want to have you in their soul-crushing social credit system though. Have fun trying to get on a bus when you don't have enough points. I think I'd rather prefer being nuked off this world.


haha! i live in a small fishing village mate - they'll have to spend a lot of money to get a bus to me to start with 

besides.... in Africa one boss is as good as the next - i'd like to see them try to take Friday beers away - then there'll be a riot


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## Brittburgh (Oct 24, 2021)

Dickhead1990 said:


> That's all well and good, except a lot of those regions are in either NATO, the EU or both. This would result in us having to honour treaties.
> 
> I don't quite understand the Peter and Moscow analogy here, along with Marseille and Paris. This won't solve any problems, especially as both countries consist of regional cultures with many different languages and identities within in the first place. Paris will still dominate, as will Moscow. The only thing you'd be doing is causing a civil war down the line when the issue for reunification arises.


It was a reference to history not modern day.
The allies at the end of world war 1 took a huge part of Prussia and liberated it back to the old. States like Poland and East Prussia where once again independent.
And yes the Nazis took those territories back but in the end up 
Poland is still Independent and the old Prussia is now multiple independent states.
So say America decided that they two had rights to claim land at the end of world war 2 much like Britain and Russia chose to 
They could have laid claims to Marseille and split France in two 
Had they chose to deal with Russia 
They could have done likewise.
It was the end of world war 2 lol 
The only thing on a map that was set in stone was America and Britain.
But alas 
Britain and Russia held the talks of which countries go to who by themselves and didn't invite America 
So both Stalin and Churchill decIded to take land that was not there's to take 
What if America had chose to do the same?.


As for Russia and it's expansion now 
I think we have the allied forces making threats against Russia but what if Russia creates an axis forces with China and maybe North Korea
China and Russia are already cooperating with each other 
Then we have a whole other issue on our hands.


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## Mr. King Of Kings (May 16, 2006)

Brittburgh said:


> As for Russia and it's expansion now
> I think we have the allied forces making threats against Russia but what if Russia creates an axis forces with China and maybe North Korea
> China and Russia are already cooperating with each other
> Then we have a whole other issue on our hands.


''Our'' leaders are really going to want to ''protect'' us when that happens. Just watch for all the new mass-surveillance high-tech to be rolled out to ''keep us safe'' from the Russian/Chinese threat. They need an excuse to introduce us to their new tools, you know. The 4th Industrial Revolution doesn't complete overnight.


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## BrrrGoesWooo! (Mar 29, 2021)

Brittburgh said:


> The refugees will be dealt with and relocated across Europe
> Its an issue but one that would be best dealt with now to help stabilise the region
> Russia will then invade the Balkans
> Rebuild their former Yugoslavia
> ...


Russia ain't touching the Balkans dude. Even if (and this is already a mighty big if) they conquered all of Ukraine, they're not about to then start wars in Hungary, Romania and Bulgaria in order to then start wars in Serbia, Kosovo, Montenegro, Macedonia, Croatia, Bosnia, Albania. All for what? 

Put down the dice and step away from the Risk board because It's just not happening brother.


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## Brittburgh (Oct 24, 2021)

BrrrGoesWooo! said:


> Russia ain't touching the Balkans dude. Even if (and this is already a mighty big if) they conquered all of Ukraine, they're not about to then start wars in Hungary, Romania and Bulgaria in order to then start wars in Serbia, Kosovo, Montenegro, Macedonia, Croatia, Bosnia, Albania. All for what?
> 
> Put down the dice and step away from the Risk board because It's just not happening brother.


Why?
Well,considering the Albanians are now the biggest syndicate on the planet and have three quarters of Europe working hand in hand with them or through their own means to help them ship drugs around Europe 
That alone would be worth while but also add the fact that Al Queda and Isis used Tehran to run operations from and boom 
There is no excuse not to go in 
To be fair 
Romania,Croatia,Macedonia and Bulgaria have protection from such actions 
The rest do not 

It also holds great significance tactically for Russia should it choose to attack Turkey.
which we all know Putin would love to do 

On another note however 
The cost of living in countries like Serbia and Albania is ridiculously high 
Accountants in Serbia make the equivalent of a Starbucks manager in the states 
So it would also allow the people of Serbia and Albania better lifestyles as neither will ever get into the EU.


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## FriedTofu (Sep 29, 2014)

LifeInCattleClass said:


> *northern hemisphere
> 
> nobody cares about us in Africa and LATAM mate
> 
> we're golden


That's what they want you to think! You are already sold to the highest bidder.


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## BruiserKC (Mar 14, 2010)

If you listened, really listened to Putin’s recent addresses regarding the situation in Ukraine, he said basically that it has no right to exist. Ukraine was entirely a creation of the Soviet Union and was stolen from them. We are supposed to ignore the history that Kyiv was founded nearly 700 years before Moscow and the Kyiv Rus empire was a thing from the 9th to 13th century. 

Putin intends to revive the Soviet Union. He intends to use the support of these “breakaway republics” as a pretext for a full scale invasion. As his popularity wanes at home, he’s using this to bolster love at home and distract from his disastrous policies. An invasion and conquest of Ukraine will get him that as well as the notoriety he longs for.

But, he will not stop there. As we have seen with Georgia and Crimea, Putin will go as far as the world will allow him. If he gets Ukraine, the Baltic States and Poland would be next. Those nations are members of NATO. But if Putin isn’t deterred by that point, he will be willing to go further. He’s counting on that.

You can’t appease someone like Putin. As much as we try to avoid repeats of history and avoidance of war, the same things hold true today just like they did with evil men of the past. You have to take a stand.

If we are unwilling to fight in Ukraine itself, give the government and people of Ukraine what it needs to defend their land. Money, weapons, supplies…whatever they need. When Russia invades, make it as painful for the invaders as possible. Severe sanctions on Russia need to kneecap Putin. Not to mention the Ukrainian people will make any occupation of their land as bloody as they can for the Russian forces. Make any victories Pyrrhic ones. 

I know the world is weary after the pandemic and don’t want to fight another war. We see that especially in the United States where we are not excited about another conflict when we got out of a 20 year one in Afghanistan. But if we don’t stand up to Putin now, we will end up being dragged into a bigger conflict that will engulf Europe and eventually the world.




Brittburgh said:


> Why?
> Well,considering the Albanians are now the biggest syndicate on the planet and have three quarters of Europe working hand in hand with them or through their own means to help them ship drugs around Europe
> That alone would be worth while but also add the fact that Al Queda and Isis used Tehran to run operations from and boom
> There is no excuse not to go in
> ...


Albania, Turkey and Montenegro are all members of NATO. An attack on them is an attack on all other members. Not to mention NATO going into Kosovo years ago was to prevent a broader conflict in Europe.

You don’t appease people like Putin. Ever.


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## Flairwhoo84123 (Jan 3, 2022)

BruiserKC said:


> If you listened, really listened to Putin’s recent addresses regarding the situation in Ukraine, he said basically that it has no right to exist. Ukraine was entirely a creation of the Soviet Union and was stolen from them. We are supposed to ignore the history that Kyiv was founded nearly 700 years before Moscow and the Kyiv Rus empire was a thing from the 9th to 13th century.
> 
> Putin intends to revive the Soviet Union. He intends to use the support of these “breakaway republics” as a pretext for a full scale invasion. As his popularity wanes at home, he’s using this to bolster love at home and distract from his disastrous policies. An invasion and conquest of Ukraine will get him that as well as the notoriety he longs for.
> 
> ...


:yawn:: America should stay out of it, Putin ideology is Russky Mir of reunification of ancient Rus lands of Russia, Belarus and Ukraine in the long run, he a autocratic no doubt, however he not aiming to conquer the capitals like Warsaw, Berlin, Prague, Budapest, Paris, or London, those folks are neither eastern Slavs or Eastern Orthodox

George Keenan out of all people had it right, to only go to war once the cross into Western Europe, or attack NATO countries, we fought proxy wars in Korea, Indochina, Angola, Nicaragua, etc. and so fourth but kept the cold peace in Europe.

We should do the same here with Moscow, make it clear it is world War III, with nothing left off the table, once they cross into NATO countries. 

NATO is a cold war relic it should be turned over the Eureopeans with both France, and Britian nuclear powers as deterents against Moscow, meanwhile America needs to containment (not war) of the Chinese, who is the bigger long term threat to America, and our actions towards Russia(rightly or wrongly) drove them into the embrace of their long time rival China to get around sanctions.


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## BruiserKC (Mar 14, 2010)

Flairwhoo84123 said:


> :yawn:: America should stay out of it, Putin ideology is Russky Mir of reunification of ancient Rus lands of Russia, Belarus and Ukraine in the long run, he a autocratic no doubt, however he not aiming to conquer the capitals like Warsaw, Berlin, Prague, Budapest, Paris, or London, those folks are neither eastern Slavs or Eastern Orthodox
> 
> George Keenan out of all people had it right, to only go to war once the cross into Western Europe, or attack NATO countries, we fought proxy wars in Korea, Indochina, Angola, Nicaragua, etc. and so fourth but kept the cold peace in Europe.
> 
> ...


Kyiv was a thriving city and commercial center of Eastern Europe when Moscow was just forest. Putin is interested in the revival of the old Soviet Union in the hopes it restores the glory days (in his eyes) of the Iron Curtain and distracts from his failed policies that have put the Russian economy in the toilet. That puts Warsaw, Prague, Budapest and Berlin in the crosshairs should he succeed with Ukraine. If the world won’t stop him then, he will push forward. 

We don’t need to get involved militarily if at all possible but leave no option off the table.


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## Ger (Jul 20, 2018)

BruiserKC said:


> If you listened, really listened to Putin’s recent addresses regarding the situation in Ukraine, he said basically that it has no right to exist. Ukraine was entirely a creation of the Soviet Union and was stolen from them. We are supposed to ignore the history that Kyiv was founded nearly 700 years before Moscow and the Kyiv Rus empire was a thing from the 9th to 13th century.
> 
> Putin intends to revive the Soviet Union. He intends to use the support of these “breakaway republics” as a pretext for a full scale invasion. As his popularity wanes at home, he’s using this to bolster love at home and distract from his disastrous policies. An invasion and conquest of Ukraine will get him that as well as the notoriety he longs for.
> 
> ...


I wrote similar stuff weeks ago and was called Nazi for that, because I critized good old russia. Maybe it works better for you. 
Too bad, the situation got worse meanwhile, because before one (incl me) could at least assume, that Putin tries to get everything signed and he could go into history for getting crimea back and leave it alone. But now it is even more obvious, that he is just lieing to all people and it it will be difficult to negotiate with him, if his word is so meaningless. In the very end he got offered anything by german chancellor last week, said he likes it and said he takes his troops back ... just words. And his reasoning reminds me of 19th century, thinking in influence zones, which ended in two world wars in 20th century. Jeez, you can say a lot bad stuff about Ukraine for sure, but he brought up Ukraine doing Blitzkrieg, Genocide and nuclear weapons. He used these words! Propaganda sure, but then you don't even have starting point for negotiations anymore. _Ukraine gave up the nuclear bombs which they took over from USSR years ago, so if they wanted to bomb russia, they had it already done before giving the bombs back._


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## BrrrGoesWooo! (Mar 29, 2021)

Brittburgh said:


> Why?
> Well,considering the Albanians are now the biggest syndicate on the planet and have three quarters of Europe working hand in hand with them or through their own means to help them ship drugs around Europe
> That alone would be worth while but also add the fact that Al Queda and Isis used Tehran to run operations from and boom
> There is no excuse not to go in
> ...


So Putin would love to invade multiple countries in order to invade Albania and start WWIII, because it's apparently the biggest syndicate in the world sending drugs into Western Europe (?), because he wants to stop the drugs (according to you) or control them?? And then you've got some other muddled shit about Tehran and Starbucks accountants in there and then he's gonna go to war with Turkey?

Word? 

At this point I can't tell if you're 15 and high or you're touching 50 and going senile trying to play Axis and Allies. 

Putin isn't gonna make any moves he doesn't think he can get away with. Crimea and these other ethnic Russian enclaves can be argued in international courts for decades, which is how he's playing this game. 

Marching across Europe to conquer Albania and about 6 other countries to reform Yugoslavia when nobody on earth has actually even considered that is just nonsense. 

I know this isn't rants but If you're not just trolling, you're just a fucking idiot. ✌



BruiserKC said:


> Kyiv was a thriving city and commercial center of Eastern Europe when Moscow was just forest. Putin is interested in the revival of the old Soviet Union in the hopes it restores the glory days (in his eyes) of the Iron Curtain and distracts from his failed policies that have put the Russian economy in the toilet. That puts Warsaw, Prague, Budapest and Berlin in the crosshairs should he succeed with Ukraine. If the world won’t stop him then, he will push forward.
> 
> We don’t need to get involved militarily if at all possible but leave no option off the table.


He ain't making that reach because it's indefensible in the eyes of the international community because there's no majority in those countries that speak Russian or want to be a part of Russia, which is their only leg to stand on for legitimacy at this point. That and the fact that they're all NATO members and it would spark WWIII.

This whole Ukrainian thing is them grabbing what little they can, while they can, to ensure they hold onto Sevastapol. The whole reason they invaded Crimea in 2014 was because their lease on the port was running out and they'd lose their major naval port in the Black Sea (allowing them some access to the Mediterranean) and the EU was trying to get Ukraine to join in which would be exposing their historical underbelly to possible invasion.

They're not making a play for world domination, like some goofs here and some ratings starved media members might have you believe.


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## Magicman38 (Jun 27, 2016)

I’m fine with the US as part of the UN imposing sanctions. But I don’t want our troops to be involved. The last thing we need is to get stuck in another war where we don’t belong. That never goes well.


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## themachoprince (Jan 15, 2021)

biden just a puppet for war and drug industry .. manufactured war manufactured covid .. all bs all the time .. biden promissed war in his stump speach .. his buddies be taking merica for billions .. but what pres isn't a genocidal crook ... they all is .. gotta keep the popoulation low and controlable via war (which murders minorities) and sterilizing vaccines (which sterilizes minorities) .. the news is just paid propaganda for war and drugs .. never ends


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## Brittburgh (Oct 24, 2021)

BrrrGoesWooo! said:


> So Putin would love to invade multiple countries in order to invade Albania and start WWIII, because it's apparently the biggest syndicate in the world sending drugs into Western Europe (?), because he wants to stop the drugs (according to you) or control them?? And then you've got some other muddled shit about Tehran and Starbucks accountants in there and then he's gonna go to war with Turkey?
> 
> Word?
> 
> ...


Thanks 
We called guys like you Chamberlain before world war 2
Nothing will happen 
We have both signed treaties 
Then The Nazis sign treaties with russia and invade them two years later 
One thing I know is 
History is doomed to repeat itelf 
When you and your fragile mind decide to encephalise 
Don't brag 
Since we are still four stages ahead of you


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## Flairwhoo84123 (Jan 3, 2022)

Brittburgh said:


> Thanks
> We called guys like you Chamberlain before world war 2
> Nothing will happen
> We have both signed treaties
> ...


If you always think it Munich 1938 somewhere in the world (i.e. - Kosovo, Bosnia & Herzegovina, Desert Storm, The Iraq war, Libya, indrectly Syria) then why not you and your kids sign up to fight the Russkies, and keep the rest of us out of another stupid "humanitarian intervention" since the fall of the Cold war.

The real fear people have the 2st century looking more like a multipolar world with spheres of influence , rather than a unipolar world


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## Brittburgh (Oct 24, 2021)

Flairwhoo84123 said:


> If you always think it Munich 1938 somewhere in the world (i.e. - Kosovo, Bosnia & Herzegovina, Desert Storm, The Iraq war, Libya, indrectly Syria) then why not you and your kids sign up to fight the Russkies, and keep the rest of us out of another stupid "humanitarian intervention" since the fall of the Cold war.


But yet in the past decade 
we've had the north Koreans testing nuclear weapons
China have a leader for life now and wish to expand 
And so do Russia 
Are you so stupid to think that all these actions are bluffs 
Russia has a usual standing army of 7.5 million 
Right now they have double that 
And for what 
Ukraine lol
All they need to 1.4 mill to deal with Ukraine so why do they have 6 million more at the ready

Hippies can preach peace all they want but the reality is 
War is coming and the West might be the ones to push us into it as they might find a force of equal size willing to reciprocate threats back


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## Irish Jet (Nov 15, 2011)

Brittburgh said:


> Thanks
> We called guys like you Chamberlain before world war 2
> Nothing will happen
> We have both signed treaties
> ...


Even putting aside the nonsensical comparisons between the two in an ideological sense - Hitler didn't have instant apocalyptic capabilities. 

You can't risk total war when nuclear weapons are involved.

This absurd discourse that compares everything to WW2 because it's the only history people know is so hilariously childish.



Brittburgh said:


> In many ways George Patton had the right idea
> If Russia was to be stopped from expanding
> It was at the end of world war 2 when America had their armed forces in Europe


Probably the most stupid and evil thing you'll see written on this forum. Trash.


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## Brittburgh (Oct 24, 2021)

Irish Jet said:


> Even putting aside the nonsensical comparisons between the two in an ideological sense - Hitler didn't have instant apocalyptic capabilities.
> 
> You can't risk total war when nuclear weapons are involved.
> 
> This absurd discourse that compares everything to WW2 because it's the only history people know is so hilariously childish.


Or maybe involves an understanding of why wars happen LMAO 
For instance Napoleon is the reason world war 1 happened 
Yet he had been dead over 90 years when the war broke out 
How may you ask 
There was a coalition between the UK,Russia,Austria and Prussia to stop Napoleon and restrict his trading with other countries 
Before long Prussia and Austria provoked Napoleon with out informing the coalition what was going on 
By the time Austria and Prussia sent word 
Napoleon was already sitting in Vienna and was about to make his way to Brandenburg in Prussia 
Both countries surrendered to Napoleon and later both countries participated in the March on Moscow 
Prussia tried to make up for that fact by defeating Napoleon at Waterloo 
But Austria refused 
Tensions build over a hundred years and being as Vindictive as Russia is 
They got their revenge on Austria at the start of world war 1 by making sure they couldn't build their train tracks into the middle east.
And turning Britain against Austria 
Austria then turned to their strongest allies and they merged one empire into the other 
Creating a major Prussian army 

That war ended and the repercussions of the actions to follow is world war 2

At the end of that war we had the cold war 
Which didn't really solve anything as the hostility still remains 
Especially since the rise of the far right in certain European countries 

So all this makes sense to us that don't get our info straight from Google but who knows warfare and the tell tale signs it en route 

On another note 
Russia has been testing Britain's defences for five years 
Cyber attacks 
Then they tested our Navy and airspace 
All since we left the EU
So as much as the Balkans would be a target for Putin 
So is the UK 
So he already is sizing us up lol

Now go Google Napoleonic wars


----------



## BrrrGoesWooo! (Mar 29, 2021)

themachoprince said:


> biden just a puppet for war and drug industry .. manufactured war manufactured covid .. all bs all the time .. biden promissed war in his stump speach .. his buddies be taking merica for billions .. but what pres isn't a genocidal crook ... they all is .. gotta keep the popoulation low and controlable via war (which murders minorities) and sterilizing vaccines (which sterilizes minorities) .. the news is just paid propaganda for war and drugs .. never ends





Brittburgh said:


> Thanks
> We called guys like you Chamberlain before world war 2
> Nothing will happen
> We have both signed treaties
> ...


.-.. . .- .-. -. / .... --- .-- / - --- / ..- ... . / .- / .--. . .-. .. --- -.. / -... . ..-. --- .-. . / - .-. -.-- .. -. --. / - --- / . -..- .--. --- ..- -. -.. / --- -. / --. . --- .--. --- .-.. .. - .. -.-. ... .-.-.-


----------



## Brittburgh (Oct 24, 2021)

BrrrGoesWooo! said:


> .-.. . .- .-. -. / .... --- .-- / - --- / ..- ... . / .- / .--. . .-. .. --- -.. / -... . ..-. --- .-. . / - .-. -.-- .. -. --. / - --- / . -..- .--. --- ..- -. -.. / --- -. / --. . --- .--. --- .-.. .. - .. -.-. ... .-.-.-


Most logicall thing you've wrote so far 
Maybe you can add a curve into the scene???


----------



## Flairwhoo84123 (Jan 3, 2022)

Brittburgh said:


> But yet in the past decade
> we've had the north Koreans testing nuclear weapons
> China have a leader for life now and wish to expand
> And so do Russia
> ...


Russia militarly is still catching up to the west after the cold War, the only area it matches or outdoes the west is nukes, Russia also is in rapid population decline, it far east will probably be ceded to a expanding China in the next few years , and who whole economy depends on oil, your afraid of that Russia? 

BTW North Korea testing nukes is nothing new, it provactive, it a hellish 1950s Stalinist police state that depends on internal terror and narco trafficking to survive,, but these nukes tests are rational from the North pov, in trying to use these tests as both nuclear deterent of Invasion by the wpoverty, and economic blackmail, I understand, the 1st , I say no to the 2nd, it still not a country to be afraid of, it can barley feed it people, let alone win a war, even China would throw them under the bus in any event.

Back to the Russkies, Putin will probably take the Russian dominated Donbass, but not western Ukraine, which has historical ties with the the former Poland-Lithuanan commonwealth , and former Austro-Hungarian empire.

It not hippish to avoid a war, it is realist and looking at other intreasts, while recognizing cost benefit analysts if the intervention is worth it.


----------



## Irish Jet (Nov 15, 2011)

Brittburgh said:


> Or maybe involves an understanding of why wars happen LMAO
> For instance Napoleon is the reason world war 1 happened
> Yet he had been dead over 90 years when the war broke out
> How may you ask
> ...


First of all your posts are horrible to read.

By this logic you could attribute WW1 to Julius Caesar. WW1 happened for a myriad of reasons - Wars are more complex than a grudge between powers. What a fucking asinine point to make. 

You also said literally nothing in response to the point about nukes or ideology which render the comparisons to Hitler to be hilariously off base. If we were to do to Putin exactly what we did to Hitler then there would be nuclear war, although judging by your support of Patton's psychotic idea I can only assume that millions of deaths aren't a huge concern of yours.


----------



## Brittburgh (Oct 24, 2021)

Irish Jet said:


> First of all your posts are horrible to read.
> 
> By this logic you could attribute WW1 to Julius Caesar. WW1 happened for a myriad of reasons - Wars are more complex than a grudge between powers. What a fucking asinine point to make.
> 
> You also said literally nothing in response to the point about nukes or ideology which render the comparisons to Hitler to be hilariously off base. If we were to do to Putin exactly what we did to Hitler then there would be nuclear war, although judging by your support of Patton's psychotic idea I can only assume that millions of deaths aren't a huge concern of yours.


Pattons idea of allowing the east to live with free will from 1945 - 1988 is horrific 
I'm so sorry I wish people to live with free will and not behind an iron curtain 
Please forgive me 

On another note 
The Irish don't mind figthing for their freedom though do they 
1916 ring a bell 
Was it worth it?


----------



## Blade Runner (Jan 24, 2012)

Mr. King Of Kings said:


> ''Our'' leaders are really going to want to ''protect'' us when that happens. Just watch for all the new mass-surveillance high-tech to be rolled out to ''keep us safe'' from the Russian/Chinese threat. They need an excuse to introduce us to their new tools, you know. The 4th Industrial Revolution doesn't complete overnight.


3 pages into this thread, and this is the best sum up of the situation.


----------



## wrasslin_casual (May 28, 2020)

Freelancer said:


> Putin is testing the west to see what he can get away with, just like he did with Crimea. So far, it's working for him. Since Ukraine isn't part of NATO, nothing other than sanctions will be done.


You been catching all that news huh? It's pretty easy to repeat what every face on TV says, do you have any original thoughts on this?


----------



## Freelancer (Aug 24, 2010)

wrasslin_casual said:


> You been catching all that news huh? It's pretty easy to repeat what every face on TV says, do you have any original thoughts on this?


Act like an adult and maybe I will


----------



## wrasslin_casual (May 28, 2020)

Freelancer said:


> Act like an adult and maybe I will


Calm down florence, so I'll ask again, can you say something on the topic which is not verbatim copied from just about every "Expert" on tv?


----------



## Flairwhoo84123 (Jan 3, 2022)

Brittburgh said:


> Or maybe involves an understanding of why wars happen LMAO
> For instance Napoleon is the reason world war 1 happened
> Yet he had been dead over 90 years when the war broke out
> How may you ask
> ...


Napoleon a cause of WWE? That new to many historians, and basic commonsense, WW1 was a mixture of causes , the naval arms race between the Imperalist British empire , and the Imperial Germans on the high seas, the dying Ottoman empire (ie - the sickman of Europe), Germany war gurantee to Austria-Hungary over the Austrian-Hungarians trying to keep control of a a growing ethno-nationalism in the Balkans, the Serbian Black hand role in the assassination of Archduke Ferdinand, the foolish Russian troop buildup on it western borders, German violation of Belgian neutrality, etc.

How does Napelon fit into WW1? WW1 was end of 19th century realism and spheres of influence, and war guarantees that shouldn't have been made on all sides.


----------



## Brittburgh (Oct 24, 2021)

Simple 
At the end of the Napoleonic wars 
Britain and Russia stopped most of their allies trading with Austria
Which is why Austria where desperate to take the Balkans 
So they could build their train tracks going from central Europe in to the middle east which would have given Austria a main source of income since they were in serious decline by 1900
And expanded out of desperation.

Imperial Britain vs Imperial Germany 
It was an issue but not one which would have led to war by any means 
Two cousins fighting for supremacy 
It was more of a ego thing over war 

Frand Ferdinand being shot 
Ironically 
The emperor didn't care for his crown prince to much as they had very different goals 
And not only that 
The idiot deserved to be shot 
His wife is shot 
He makes it to safety 
Sees his wife might die and decides to go back down the very road his wife had been shot and bang he gets shot too

Austria was the issue not Russia 
Of course Russia would build an army on its borders watching Austria engulf the Balkans.
It would have been stupid not to

I can't argue with the Belgian point though 
You have me there
@Flairwhoo84123


----------



## Ger (Jul 20, 2018)

Brittburgh said:


> Simple
> At the end of the Napoleonic wars
> Britain and Russia stopped most of their allies trading with Austria
> Which is why Austria where desperate to take the Balkans
> ...


Russian agents already took over WF or what shall that mean?? Between the napleonic wars and WW1 was like 100 years and between WW1 and today also like 100 years. If we go back through history books and look for the worldmap we like and then start claims on other people's territory, then we are back to middle age. That is not an acceptable approach. Beside that these comparisons don't make much sense, because the west european countries were also fighting for ressources and land, while russia got all resources and land they want.
Russia needs to reform their country and that won't go away, when they aquire new territory.


----------



## Brittburgh (Oct 24, 2021)

Ger said:


> Russian agents already took over WF or what shall that mean?? Between the napleonic wars and WW1 was like 100 years and between WW1 and today also like 100 years. If we go back through history books and look for the worldmap we like and then start claims on other people's territory, then we are back to middle age. That is not an acceptable approach. Beside that these comparisons don't make much sense, because the west european countries were also fighting for ressources and land, while russia got all resources and land they want.
> Russia needs to reform their country and that won't go away, when they aquire new territory.


I'm sure each country has claim to territories but that's not my meaning here 
The 1700s was so pivotal in creating modern day Europe that certain parts of it have to be taken into account. 
For instance 
The only real invasion of Russia pre1900 that had any real significance 
Was that of Poland 
And I'm not sure if you are aware but the Russians held it against the Polish for over 400 years after 
Which also lead to them being dissolved during the 1700s
So I'm drawing a pattern through the important parts which all link together 
Like AustrIa invading Russia with Napoleon 
Then making no attempt to make good on their mistake 
So in the end they where bankrupt over 90 years by Britain and Russia 
Expanded out of desperation as they had a money making idea that would work 
And Britain and Russia still force the Austrian empire to collapse 
The Prussian joined suit and all the nation's of Europe finally coverted to a full on demoracy or new form of socialism 
Compared to the old Autocracy 

Like all things in life 
There is a mechanistic nature to it 
We just have to discover it


----------



## BruiserKC (Mar 14, 2010)

Ger said:


> I wrote similar stuff weeks ago and was called Nazi for that, because I critized good old russia. Maybe it works better for you.
> Too bad, the situation got worse meanwhile, because before one (incl me) could at least assume, that Putin tries to get everything signed and he could go into history for getting crimea back and leave it alone. But now it is even more obvious, that he is just lieing to all people and it it will be difficult to negotiate with him, if his word is so meaningless. In the very end he got offered anything by german chancellor last week, said he likes it and said he takes his troops back ... just words. And his reasoning reminds me of 19th century, thinking in influence zones, which ended in two world wars in 20th century. Jeez, you can say a lot bad stuff about Ukraine for sure, but he brought up Ukraine doing Blitzkrieg, Genocide and nuclear weapons. He used these words! Propaganda sure, but then you don't even have starting point for negotiations anymore. _Ukraine gave up the nuclear bombs which they took over from USSR years ago, so if they wanted to bomb russia, they had it already done before giving the bombs back._


I’m a student of military history, and as an Army vet I’ve seen this up close. Everything that has been predicted has come to pass. Cyber attacks, moves into the separatist regions, surrounding Ukraine on three sides, etc. He has not been stopped up until now. He has given the “justification” to move forward.

It’s going to get ugly. 



BrrrGoesWooo! said:


> He ain't making that reach because it's indefensible in the eyes of the international community because there's no majority in those countries that speak Russian or want to be a part of Russia, which is their only leg to stand on for legitimacy at this point. That and the fact that they're all NATO members and it would spark WWIII.
> 
> This whole Ukrainian thing is them grabbing what little they can, while they can, to ensure they hold onto Sevastapol. The whole reason they invaded Crimea in 2014 was because their lease on the port was running out and they'd lose their major naval port in the Black Sea (allowing them some access to the Mediterranean) and the EU was trying to get Ukraine to join in which would be exposing their historical underbelly to possible invasion.
> 
> They're not making a play for world domination, like some goofs here and some ratings starved media members might have you believe.





I’m a former Moscow correspondent. Don’t let Vladimir Putin fool you: Russia’s invasion of Ukraine is only about one thing.



Over the last few years the Russian economy has been sliding downhill. COVID especially was devastating in lives lost and the crippling impact of low oil prices for a nation that is heavily dependent on the money from energy.

Putin has always considered the collapse of the Soviet Union as an absolute tragedy. He’s an old school KGB man who truly wants a revival of the Iron Curtain. For years he has made moves that have gone unpunished. First Georgia, then Crimea, then Ukraine, then Syria, then Belarus. He has gone unscathed. He is bold enough to go into Ukraine if he feels he won’t get spanked. If he can get that under control and in the fold, he will be willing enough to go further and threaten the Baltic States and Poland.

It’s that simple. Maybe not World domination but definitely control of good chunks of Eastern Europe. 



Magicman38 said:


> I’m fine with the US as part of the UN imposing sanctions. But I don’t want our troops to be involved. The last thing we need is to get stuck in another war where we don’t belong. That never goes well.


Hopefully sanctions will be enough. They need to be severe. Cripple the Russian economy and also hit his assets hard as well. It needs to be as painful as possible. Make any moves be not worth the trouble. At the same time, all options should be on the table. Even though we don’t want to use troops, let them think that we are prepared to do so if need be.


----------



## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

FriedTofu said:


> That's what they want you to think! You are already sold to the highest bidder.


yeah…. But its Africa mate

no ‘sale’ is ever permanent - we’re having land claims from 300 years back at the moment

will be very easy to ‘take back’ what we sold and play dumb - we do it all the time

the secret is to do it while putting your money in a foreign bank acc


----------



## Brittburgh (Oct 24, 2021)

BruiserKC said:


> I’m a student of military history, and as an Army vet I’ve seen this up close. Everything that has been predicted has come to pass. Cyber attacks, moves into the separatist regions, surrounding Ukraine on three sides, etc. He has not been stopped up until now. He has given the “justification” to move forward.
> 
> It’s going to get ugly.
> 
> ...


Finally someone who sees things from my perspective.

You are 100 percent right 
Putin is old shool KGB and would love their old territories back especially the Balkans.
I'm not sure they would be bold enough to threaten Poland as it would be venturing to far west but it certainly is on his radar.

As for sanctions 
I fear this is what might unify certain nations against NATO
In the past decade they have sanctioned North Korea and have had plenty of issues with China
Russia might use that as an excuse to create a force that could equal that of Nato


----------



## BruiserKC (Mar 14, 2010)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1496634671194685444

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1496635425112346625

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1496636159715336200

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1496637970861989888
🙏 Praying tonight for the people of Ukraine.


----------



## Twilight Sky (Feb 19, 2019)

Yeah Im not signing up for twitter for that.

Putin is gonna do it otherwise he wouldn't be going through all that shit.


----------



## FriedTofu (Sep 29, 2014)

Twilight Sky said:


> Yeah Im not signing up for twitter for that.
> 
> Putin is gonna do it otherwise he wouldn't be going through all that shit.


Do you think Finland could be a target decades from now if Putin or his successor keep pushing the same rhetoric about reclaiming Russia's former land?


----------



## Ger (Jul 20, 2018)

Brittburgh said:


> Finally someone who sees things from my perspective.
> 
> You are 100 percent right
> Putin is old shool KGB and would love their old territories back especially the Balkans.
> ...


This is no video game and you started the same - sorry to say that - strange song of mixing Russia and USSR, which they like to do in russia meanwhile. That is propaganda! And even the claims by USSR were not legit. This silly communist country, initiated by germans sending Lenin over to make that country collapse, just started existing in 20th century and them getting for example baltic states (eventually you mixed that above) was already an evil move. 
I say it again: Putin FAILED to reform his country and even IF he would want to move to Balkan, that would make it even worse for russia, because that are crazy poor and corrupt countries. Sorry, but where you ever there? Nobody with 3 working senses in his brain would like to ride all over europe to get countries like Albania or Serbia. The USSR at least had an idea, but nobody wants to live in russia, let's stay honest here. 

I can debate all the historic stuff with ease, but that is just distracting from Putin taking parts of Ukraine and throwing away Minsk agreement etc.




BruiserKC said:


> I’m a student of military history, and as an Army vet I’ve seen this up close. Everything that has been predicted has come to pass. Cyber attacks, moves into the separatist regions, surrounding Ukraine on three sides, etc. He has not been stopped up until now. He has given the “justification” to move forward.


Cyberattacks you have in any war nowadays, except in countries which have no relevant internet structure anyway.



BruiserKC said:


> Over the last few years the Russian economy has been sliding downhill. COVID especially was devastating in lives lost and the crippling impact of low oil prices for a nation that is heavily dependent on the money from energy.


They had enough chances to reform in russia and they failed. Putin was in charge so long and being more or less a clique-based dictator, who put his people everywhere to control anything. And then you got country, where the big news is the president or governor bringing a little girl a wheel chair, which in all western country (except USA maybe) people would laugh about that is necessary to do.



BruiserKC said:


> Putin has always considered the collapse of the Soviet Union as an absolute tragedy. He’s an old school KGB man who truly wants a revival of the Iron Curtain. For years he has made moves that have gone unpunished. First Georgia, then Crimea, then Ukraine, then Syria, then Belarus. He has gone unscathed. He is bold enough to go into Ukraine if he feels he won’t get spanked. If he can get that under control and in the fold, he will be willing enough to go further and threaten the Baltic States and Poland.
> 
> It’s that simple. Maybe not World domination but definitely control of good chunks of Eastern Europe.


What great countries shall help building up "russia" again? Bulgaria? Romania? Serbia? Turkey? I am just curious. If russia would do all that stuff you guys fantasize about, you had an immense brain drain to western europe or USA or - if you are into such stuff - china. So russia would just win "territory", which they had problems to conquer and then to hold. And before you start with "yeah, he will take germany also" blabla. Fine, let's stay that happens. Then Putin conquers a country to no raw material (except bad quality coal) and has to give that country his energy FOR FREE now, because it belongs to mother russia now, same to all the eastern europe countries. And how does russia make money then? From europeans(!) working on in germany like nothing had happened with 1000 times worse standard of living? KGB agent Puting should know, that that strategy already didn't work in gdr. Yeah, how does russia make money then? From giving China everything for free, to prevent them taking the east part of russia with ease, when russia tries to hold territories?
Guys, seriously, that is just a stupid strategy. I repeat myself, that is not a video game here. I can imagine Putin wants to leave power with the slogan "I made russia great (again)" after winning territories back, which are useless to russia, but that is it. He failed to reform his own country and he won't be able to improve other countries. Spamming russian passports and paying people low retirement rents just costs russia money. They already did that in crimea before. So the cake will just have to be shared between more russians.


----------



## InexorableJourney (Sep 10, 2016)

Taking territory and keeping territory are two different things.

That is why Russia is taking back nations with significant Russian nationals. Once taken there will only be a minimal risk of insurgency.


----------



## Brittburgh (Oct 24, 2021)

Ger said:


> This is no video game and you started the same - sorry to say that - strange song of mixing Russia and USSR, which they like to do in russia meanwhile. That is propaganda! And even the claims by USSR were not legit. This silly communist country, initiated by germans sending Lenin over to make that country collapse, just started existing in 20th century and them getting for example baltic states (eventually you mixed that above) was already an evil move.
> I say it again: Putin FAILED to reform his country and even IF he would want to move to Balkan, that would make it even worse for russia, because that are crazy poor and corrupt countries. Sorry, but where you ever there? Nobody with 3 working senses in his brain would like to ride all over europe to get countries like Albania or Serbia. The USSR at least had an idea, but nobody wants to live in russia, let's stay honest here.
> 
> I can debate all the historic stuff with ease, but that is just distracting from Putin taking parts of Ukraine and throwing away Minsk agreement etc.
> ...


I get why you hate Russia 
I do 
But some of your facts are a little off
For instance Lenin swore revenge after the Romanovs had his brother killed 
So that action was already in place and guys like Tropsky had been preaching communism in Russia prior to the revolution since he had read Marx and thought his worker control of factories and other ideals behind communism would work 
When in truth 
All Russia had to do 
Was enact their own separation of powers act 
Surrendering half the power from state to chosen representatives from each district which is what we call democracy 
Killing off the Autocracy of Russia which was much needed but Communism took it in the other direction 
Going from far right to far left 
In one swift move


----------



## Mainboy (Jan 30, 2012)

Putin orders an invasion into Eastern Ukraine.


----------



## BruiserKC (Mar 14, 2010)

And it has begun.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1496681322869362691

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1496681690575552515

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1496681345837412356

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1496683381115035653


----------



## BruiserKC (Mar 14, 2010)

I endorse his stance. If Ukraine has no option for peace, make it painful as possible for Putin.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1496681433376698373


----------



## FriedTofu (Sep 29, 2014)

What I will say is how the non-legacy/self-claim non MSM media have been pretty disgusting on covering this issue because they care more about being reactionary to the establishment than actually covering the news. Right wing online pundits were openly sucking up to Putin because Biden/Liberals bad. Tucker Carlson was just making Putin a victim yesterday. Too many online leftists have been downplaying Russian aggression in the build up and justifying Russian imperialism by whataboutism with America imperialism. Their brains can't seem to fanthom there can be more than one bad actor out there.


----------



## Clique (Sep 9, 2007)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1496695560849473536
they got _World War III_ trending. Smh


----------



## BruiserKC (Mar 14, 2010)

FriedTofu said:


> What I will say is how the non-legacy/self-claim non MSM media have been pretty disgusting on covering this issue because they care more about being reactionary to the establishment than actually covering the news. Right wing online pundits were openly sucking up to Putin because Biden/Liberals bad. Tucker Carlson was just making Putin a victim yesterday. Too many online leftists have been downplaying Russian aggression in the build up and justifying Russian imperialism by whataboutism with America imperialism. Their brains can't seem to fanthom there can be more than one bad actor out there.


But make no mistake…this is fully Putin’s fault here. He is unquestionably the aggressor. His arguments about neo-Nazi aggression against Russia was a false pretense.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1496683014604140548


----------



## BrrrGoesWooo! (Mar 29, 2021)

Did Putin find out he had colon cancer or something or has he just lost his mind? 

Putin's modus operandi for decades now has been claiming Russian enclaves in disputed areas.. Why would you bomb the West of Ukraine when the actual strategic goal is to secure Crimea and the surrounding areas? That's some shit you can argue about in international courts for years and possibly win a decision.

He's lost the plot. Fucker is gonna go down in a ball of fire and drag hundreds of thousands of people to their graves.


----------



## Lady Eastwood (Jul 10, 2006)

Putin is such a giant sack of shit.


----------



## BruiserKC (Mar 14, 2010)

BrrrGoesWooo! said:


> Did Putin find out he had colon cancer or something or has he just lost his mind?
> 
> Putin's modus operandi for decades now has been claiming Russian enclaves in disputed areas.. Why would you bomb the West of Ukraine when the actual strategic goal is to secure Crimea and the surrounding areas? That's some shit you can argue about in international courts for years and possibly win a decision.
> 
> He's lost the plot. Fucker is gonna go down in a ball of fire and drag hundreds of thousands of people to their graves.


This was the plan all along. It was not just about Crimea. He truly believes that Ukraine was taken from the Soviet/Russian Empire. He is banking on the world doing nothing as they did in previous incursions into Chechnya, Georgia, Crimea, Belarus, etc.


----------



## FriedTofu (Sep 29, 2014)

BruiserKC said:


> But make no mistake…this is fully Putin’s fault here. He is unquestionably the aggressor. His arguments about neo-Nazi aggression against Russia was a false pretense.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1496683014604140548


Everybody knows it was a false pretense. The thing that is bewildering is why Putin is signaling an attempt to take a huge portion of Ukraine instead of just the separatist regions. Is he blustering so the West can claim victory by denying him this 'goal' and he gets to keep the parts of Ukraine that wants to be part of Russia?


----------



## Rick Sanchez (Dec 30, 2012)

WWIII memes everywhere. People had them locked and loaded.


----------



## BrrrGoesWooo! (Mar 29, 2021)

BruiserKC said:


> This was the plan all along. It was not just about Crimea. He truly believes that Ukraine was taken from the Soviet/Russian Empire. He is banking on the world doing nothing as they did in previous incursions into Chechnya, Georgia, Crimea, Belarus, etc.


Yeah I think this might be a bigger deal than Georgia 

I know he's an old soviet KGB guy like you said yourself.. but trying to conquer one of the largest countries in Europe is a bit different than trying to sow dissent and claim Russian enclaves or step on Muslim separatist's at the height of "The War on Terror." 

This is a step away from their norm.



FriedTofu said:


> Everybody knows it was a false pretense. The thing that is bewildering is why Putin is signaling an attempt to take a huge portion of Ukraine instead of just the separatist regions. Is he blustering so the West can claim victory by denying him this 'goal' and he gets to keep the parts of Ukraine that wants to be part of Russia?


This sounds like a reasonable explanation, because otherwise he's not being a rational actor, which is out of character for him.


----------



## BruiserKC (Mar 14, 2010)

FriedTofu said:


> Everybody knows it was a false pretense. The thing that is bewildering is why Putin is signaling an attempt to take a huge portion of Ukraine instead of just the separatist regions. Is he blustering so the West can claim victory by denying him this 'goal' and he gets to keep the parts of Ukraine that wants to be part of Russia?





BrrrGoesWooo! said:


> Yeah I think this might be a bigger deal than Georgia
> 
> I know he's an old soviet KGB guy like you said yourself.. but trying to conquer one of the largest countries in Europe is a bit different than trying to sow dissent and claim Russian enclaves or step on Muslim separatist's at the height of "The War on Terror."
> 
> This is a step away from their norm.


This is what he wanted all along. With every other incursion he saw no consequences. He became more and more emboldened to go further. His intentions were obvious weeks ago. He is hoping that once again we do nothing. This is the norm. 



Catalanotto said:


> Putin is such a giant sack of shit.


If we aren’t planning to send troops, I like Joe Walsh’s idea.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1496698097308741641


----------



## Lady Eastwood (Jul 10, 2006)

Damn, I’m down for that.

My background is Ukrainian, it just angers me to even look at Putin, fuck him, he needs to be euthanized.


----------



## FriedTofu (Sep 29, 2014)

BrrrGoesWooo! said:


> Yeah I think this might be a bigger deal than Georgia
> 
> I know he's an old soviet KGB guy like you said yourself.. but trying to conquer one of the largest countries in Europe is a bit different than trying to sow dissent and claim Russian enclaves or step on Muslim separatist's at the height of "The War on Terror."
> 
> ...


Maybe Covid fried Putin's brain.



BruiserKC said:


> This is what he wanted all along. With every other incursion he saw no consequences. He became more and more emboldened to go further. His intentions were obvious weeks ago. He is hoping that once again we do nothing. This is the norm.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


To be fair, nobody in the region can stand up to him if he decides to do things like this. Just like the whole world shrugged their shoulders when America invaded Iraq under false pretense. The only deterrence smaller nations have is to make invasions and occupation as costly as possible. Not much they can do if the aggressor do not care about losses.


----------



## BrrrGoesWooo! (Mar 29, 2021)

BruiserKC said:


> This is what he wanted all along. With every other incursion he saw no consequences. He became more and more emboldened to go further. His intentions were obvious weeks ago. He is hoping that once again we do nothing. This is the norm.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Since WWII or the collapse of the Soviet Union, when has a full scale invasion of a major European nation been the Russian norm?

Maybe Putin wanted it for years, but that doesn't make this move_ normal _based on his history, which is why I'm questioning what's actually going on with him. @FriedTofu had the most reasonable explanation I've heard so far.


----------



## Ger (Jul 20, 2018)

Putin is crazy.



Brittburgh said:


> I get why you hate Russia
> ...


I don't hate russia. People there suffer a lot. It is just this - sorry - silly sneaking around through history books to find lame excuses for Putin doing his shit and people in western world still apologize his behaviour. Russia signed multiple contracts themself in the last 20 years to acknowledge Ukraine and it's borders.


----------



## BruiserKC (Mar 14, 2010)

Catalanotto said:


> Damn, I’m down for that.
> 
> My background is Ukrainian, it just angers me to even look at Putin, fuck him, he needs to be euthanized.


Putin was looking for a way to also prop his own stance up with his own people. As I had stated earlier in the thread, COVID hit hard in loss of life and devastating the Russian economy that is highly dependent on oil money. Especially at the beginning of the pandemic when oil futures hit negative territory, where companies were giving money to buyers to take oil off their hands.



FriedTofu said:


> Maybe Covid fried Putin's brain.
> 
> 
> To be fair, nobody in the region can stand up to him if he decides to do things like this. Just like the whole world shrugged their shoulders when America invaded Iraq under false pretense. The only deterrence smaller nations have is to make invasions and occupation as costly as possible. Not much they can do if the aggressor do not care about losses.


At the same time, we should sanction the hell out of Russia. Their economy is already on shaky ground so let’s make it painful financially. 


BrrrGoesWooo! said:


> Since the WWII or the collapse of the Soviet Union, when has a full scale invasion of a major European nation been the Russian norm?
> 
> Maybe Putin wanted it for years, but that doesn't make this move_ normal _based on his history, which is why I'm questioning what's actually going on with him. @FriedTofu had the most reasonable explanation I've heard so far.


Or this is who he has been all along. We wrote it off and ignored all the signs. In the United States especially we couldn’t admit that Putin was this person. We hoped beyond hope that warming up to Putin would help. Back in 2008, Putin told GWB that Ukraine wasn’t a country. Obama had his hot mic moment about a reset. Romney was mocked when he said Russia was still an enemy (and we are seeing he was right). And the Trump-Putin relationship.

Putin was who he said he was all along.


----------



## KNSFFA (11 mo ago)

Air raid sirens going off. Watching this on television. Stay safe people.


----------



## Buffy The Vampire Slayer (May 31, 2011)

Well, this is it my friends, stay safe and well. We are in for one big ride.


----------



## KNSFFA (11 mo ago)

BruiserKC said:


> And the Trump-Putin relationship.
> Putin was who he said he was all along.


That relationship right there was the warning bell after many warning bells. If Trump were still president now, this shit would be even worse now.


----------



## Lady Eastwood (Jul 10, 2006)

Not sure how anyone was naive enough to even try warming up to Putin. He doesn’t give a damn about life. Just let Ukraine live in peace.


----------



## deadcool (May 4, 2006)

I cant believe he actually started the invasion to Ukraine.


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## Lady Eastwood (Jul 10, 2006)

Ukrainian forces on the border being attacked by both Russian and Belarusian troops. Wow.


----------



## KNSFFA (11 mo ago)

Reports on news think this is much bigger attack than originally thought. Full scale invasion.


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## Lady Eastwood (Jul 10, 2006)

deadcool said:


> I cant believe he actually started the invasion to Ukraine.


Putin is a psycho, a lot didn’t take him seriously and I’m not sure why. He gives zero fucks.


----------



## KNSFFA (11 mo ago)

Catalanotto said:


> Ukrainian forces on the border being attacked by both Russian and Belarusian troops. Wow.


So under attack by 2 countries. Yikes.


----------



## Buffy The Vampire Slayer (May 31, 2011)

Rule one. Always take Putin serious. I even called this happening on my PSN Chat with my boys a week ago. They laughed and didn't take this war seriously. Meanwhile I did. The guy that has been raised in a family that either served or went in the service.


----------



## Rated Phenomenal (Dec 31, 2011)

Its sad but I hope we ( the UK) don’t get involved.


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## Lady Eastwood (Jul 10, 2006)

Buffy The Vampire Slayer said:


> Rule one. Always take Putin serious. I even called this happening on my PSN Chat with my boys a week ago. They laughed and didn't take this war seriously. Meanwhile I did. The guy that has been raised in a family that either served or went in the service.


It’s incredible how many people didn’t take it seriously, even people in Ukraine. Even when he said some Russian forces had left and “gone home” after training…yeah, okay. You’d think the world would know this guy by now. He should just worry about his own fucking country instead of bothering others.


----------



## KNSFFA (11 mo ago)

Rated Phenomenal said:


> Its sad but I hope we ( the UK) don’t get involved.


Same here in the states. The bigger it gets the worse. I don't think anyone wants their country to get involved. Though it may be unpreventable.


----------



## FriedTofu (Sep 29, 2014)

The military build up has been ongoing for almost year. Biden administration literally told the whole world what Putin was up to weeks before and they got accused of warmongering. Putin himself said there would be no invasion so you can't fault even people in Ukraine for thinking there wouldn't be an attack of this scale. Everyone just assumed it would be on the same level as Georgia and Crimea. And it could still be after weeks of shelling at each other. That could be the least harmful outcome now.


----------



## Punkhead (Dec 29, 2011)

I saw Putin's declaration of war live on Russian state TV, and it was pretty surreal. Especially when he said that "anyone who will try to help Ukraine will be met with consequences they had never seen in their history" (my translation as I remember it). You can go to Reddit's /r/CombatFootage if you want to follow everything live. Seems like this is going to be the most recorded, livestreamed war in history so far.


----------



## Lady Eastwood (Jul 10, 2006)

Saying is one thing, seeing is another. Putin having a track record of being a bitch should have at least put people on a slight guard at the very least. Sending thousands of troops to hang around the border, and people still were like “meh”, like that meant nothing at all. Instead, they interviewed Ukrainians just lounging on a park bench with their kid who straight out said they weren’t worried and just shrugged it off. Other Ukrainians going about their usual day, echoing the same. I guess I’m just speaking from my point of view, but, if I knew someone had issues with my country and he was saying “nah” when the subject of invasion came up, I’d still sleep with one eye open, I just wouldn’t feel comfortable thinking well, he said he wasn’t gonna do it, so, I’ll just take his word for it. This is a guy who signed a referendum to allow himself to be president until at least 2036. I’m just so angry, I’ll probably repeat myself multiple times here cuz my mind is all over the place, I just hate this guy so much. Scum of the earth. He holds himself so high, it’s sickening. RIP to all the people who’s lives are lost cuz of this dipshit.


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## FriedTofu (Sep 29, 2014)

Catalanotto said:


> Putin is such a giant sack of shit.


Why do you hate Putin so much?


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1496290844797992960
Does he eat dog? Fair questions by the top rated conservative pundit in America.


----------



## KNSFFA (11 mo ago)

FriedTofu said:


> Why do you hate Putin so much?
> 
> Does he eat dog? Fair questions by the top rated conservative pundit in America.


Does he eat dog food? If only most his views were from people who watched him to mock his stupidity. Sadly his viewers aren't bright, just like him.

Edit: I did remove the below, which someone took as trolling, which it was not. But I will be careful not to do so again as it gives off the wrong impression to change a post. No ill intent was intended and I understand why the person I was responding too took the change/edit the wrong way.

Original Post: If Tucker Carlson likes Putin so much that is enough reason for me to dislike him. Alas there are much greater reasons why people dislike Putin so much.


----------



## Lady Eastwood (Jul 10, 2006)

Carlson is a douche for even trying to put a positive light on Putin. Putin is a tyrant and thinks Russia is the “victim of aggression”, imagine being “that guy”. Unprovoked attack, innocent lives being lost. There’s no reason to like anything about this guy, ever.


----------



## KNSFFA (11 mo ago)

Carlson is a douche for putting positive light on Putin. No shocker though considering he does as he does to show his fidelity to Trump. At some point Putin will be declared by those types 'One of the Greats' if not already.


----------



## FriedTofu (Sep 29, 2014)

KNSFFA said:


> If Tucker Carlson likes Putin so much that is enough reason for me to dislike him. Alas there are much greater reasons why people dislike Putin so much.


He has been simping hard for Putin the past couple of weeks. Literally echoed Russia's propaganda that Ukraine is not a democracy. 

Caught you! Troll!


----------



## KNSFFA (11 mo ago)

FriedTofu said:


> He has been simping hard for Putin the past couple of weeks. Literally echoed Russia's propaganda that Ukraine is not a democracy.
> 
> Caught you! Troll!


I'll admit I edited/changed my post a few minutes after posting my reply. However not sure how I'm trolling. Was not my attempt to come across wrongly by changing my post. Any/all my comments have been anti Putin and Trump, Carlson including my edit. I suspect changing a post completely is considered trolling even if not intended so will learn from this. I do apologize if I did some wrong. I have put the original comment back in with explain.


----------



## Brittburgh (Oct 24, 2021)

People in the Ukraine need to come to terms with what's going on now and flee 
At the rate the Russians and Belarusians are moving at 
This will be a 42 - 60 day war 
They are being invaded from two sides forcing the Ukrainians to move their reserves back and fourth to counter each wave 
But they can't do so alone 
If the west is going to act 
It needs to be now 
Otherwise 
It's all talk and no action from the west 

Which is what I expected all along 
Sorry to say but most people in Europe 
Don't think that highly of Ukrainian lives 
So I don't see how people expected this to be another bluff when in reality 
The west have bluffed themselves into a corner since they thought oh if we all threaten Putin together he'll back down 
Well he hasn't 
Time for the west to formulate an actual plan now


----------



## wrasslin_casual (May 28, 2020)

InexorableJourney said:


> Taking territory and keeping territory are two different things.
> 
> That is why Russia is taking back nations with significant Russian nationals. Once taken there will only be a minimal risk of insurgency.


Exactly. Russia is also letting it be known that the Ukraine can not be used as a military base for western weapons and armies. Every nation has a right to defend its borders and expand beyond it if required.


----------



## themachoprince (Jan 15, 2021)

the news is just paid propaganda for war and drugs .. the war is to kill off minorities and reduce the population .. the drugs are to sterilize you so you can't have kids and kill you off with a nice bloodclot stroke reducing the population once again .. bidens buddies are making billions ... jfk was shot because he didn't want to go to war .. there is a machine in place .. don't get caught up in the bs ..


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## Flairwhoo84123 (Jan 3, 2022)

Vladimir Putin isn't hostile to me like the SJWs, identity politics folks, me too, cancel culture, woke crowds, let Europe defend Europe, and the US go back to the founders views of non-interventionism perfectly summed up I'm Washington farewell address.


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## Brittburgh (Oct 24, 2021)

and the US go back to the founders views of non-interventionism perfectly summed up I'm Washington farewell address.
[/QUOTE]
As amazing as that would be 
The idea behind the founding fathers is now dead and they foreseen how too
I believe it was Jefferson who said 
America need a revolution every ten years or so to make sure the system doesn't become corrupt.


----------



## Flairwhoo84123 (Jan 3, 2022)

Brittburgh said:


> and the US go back to the founders views of non-interventionism perfectly summed up I'm Washington farewell address.


As amazing as that would be
The idea behind the founding fathers is now dead and they foreseen how too
I believe it was Jefferson who said
America need a revolution every ten years or so to make sure the system doesn't become corrupt.
[/QUOTE]

Jefferson was a nut who praised the bloody horror of the French Revolution reign of terror, and got angry at Adam's presidency for not supporting the Rosebeqirue terror, the guy was the perfect example of Libertarianism without constraints or traditions.


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## Brittburgh (Oct 24, 2021)

Flairwhoo84123 said:


> As amazing as that would be
> The idea behind the founding fathers is now dead and they foreseen how too
> I believe it was Jefferson who said
> America need a revolution every ten years or so to make sure the system doesn't become corrupt.


Jefferson was a nut who praised the bloody horror of the French Revolution reign of terror, and got angry at Adam's presidency for not supporting the Rosebeqirue terror, the guy was the perfect example of Libertarianism without constraints or traditions.
[/QUOTE]
It doesn't make that quote any less true


----------



## IpostHIGH (Feb 5, 2017)

Putin basically going to nuke anyone who interferes in his expansion.

What about if he loses?

Missiles heading to every point on Earth, when having nothing to lose.

And the underground nukes, built to be launched automatically from underground when the country is destroyed to ashes.

We're in a deep shit.

So the options are:
-Russia expands and nobody does nothing
-Someone interferes and gets nuked(because Russia will never use military to fight the States for example)
-Russia gets nuked to ashes and the underground nukes activate itselves and start deploying to random places on Earth.


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## Flairwhoo84123 (Jan 3, 2022)

IpostHIGH said:


> Putin basically going to nuke anyone who interferes in his expansion.
> 
> What about if he loses?
> 
> ...


Yet some on here want to start ww3 "show them evil Russian people a lesson" over a part of the world that changed hands more times than a prostitute changing clinents.

I'm not saying Putin right for this, he seem to be pissed and reacting in anger, and it going to cost him economically in the long run, but it not worth American blood, treasure and lives, Ukraine isn't NATO, and not a US ally that has a defense treaty with it, not allowing my family to die over this crap, let Europe deal with it.


----------



## Brittburgh (Oct 24, 2021)

IpostHIGH said:


> Putin basically going to nuke anyone who interferes in his expansion.
> 
> What about if he loses?
> 
> ...


People tend to throw nuclear war out there as a major deterrent but let's be honest 
If America can take out one of Irans top guys and the result is not nuclear war .then I doubt Russia or NATO would resort to using Nuclear weapons 
There have been to many instances since 2000 showing that Nuclear war is not on any of these guys minds 

Think about it 
When America invaded Afghanistan 
Everyone's thoughts where .
Wow that's close to Pakistan 
Maybe to close but yet nothing happened
Nuclear war is a feint countries use to induce mass hysteria


----------



## Lady Eastwood (Jul 10, 2006)

Flairwhoo84123 said:


> Yet some on here want to start ww3 "show them evil Russian people a lesson" over a part of the world that changed hands more times than a prostitute changing clinents.
> 
> I'm not saying Putin right for this, he seem to be pissed and reacting in anger, and it going to cost him economically in the long run, but it not worth American blood, treasure and lives, Ukraine isn't NATO, and not a US ally that has a defense treaty with it, not allowing my family to die over this crap, let Europe deal with it.


You might not want your family dying over something that is obviously insignificant to you, but, other people’s families are dying in an unprovoked attack by a sick fuck who can’t let the Soviet Union go. Ukraine went about their lives and because that goblin is afraid of NATO adding Ukraine, he’s decided to launch his invasion. Ukraine needs help, they are outnumbered by Russian military, they’ve done nothing to deserve this attack. Fuck Russia, piece of shit country run by evil.


----------



## Flairwhoo84123 (Jan 3, 2022)

Brittburgh said:


> People tend to throw nuclear war out there as a major deterrent but let's be honest
> If America can take out one of Irans top guys and the result is not nuclear war .then I doubt Russia or NATO would resort to using Nuclear weapons
> There have been to many instances since 2000 showing that Nuclear war is not on any of these guys minds
> 
> ...


Pakistan was looking for nuclear war, it sat back and played both sides, and now has a ally in power in Kabul, there was no risk for nuclear war.

Nuclear war is a real threat, you know all them chickenhawks who wouldn't send there only kids to die , thought romantically during ww1 (on all sides), the troops would be home by Christmas, it was the most disastrous war of the 20th century, now imagine this euphoria against Russia with our nukes, and the Russkies pan-slavic, pan-Orthodox nationalism euphoria with their nukes, this needs cooler heads to prevail and cut a grand bargain, even if the Donbass went bye bye to Russia, a world war avoided, meanwhile in all this the Chinese are looking to be a dominat power by expanding it economic influence, while not firing a shot to boot.


----------



## Pencil Neck Freak (Aug 5, 2013)

I have a friend who's caught up in this madness.

We take for granted the systems we have in place. Until those systems crumble. I must of burnt a thousand calories thinking about what my friend could do. She hopes to get to the EU border. But she's got no car.... Not like driving on the roads is a good idea.

You just think and think and think. But every idea that comes to mind was as stupid as the last. We laugh about thoughts and prayers.... But when that's all you have that's all you have....


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## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

Wow… Putin is a crazy sack of shit

my 2 Ukranian workers have moved out of the cities to family and safety

they are ok and that at least is a small blessing


----------



## Flairwhoo84123 (Jan 3, 2022)

Catalanotto said:


> You might not want your family dying over something that is obviously insignificant to you, but, other people’s families are dying in an unprovoked attack by a sick fuck who can’t let the Soviet Union go. Ukraine went about their lives and because that goblin is afraid of NATO adding Ukraine, he’s decided to launch his invasion. Ukraine needs help, they are outnumbered by Russian military, they’ve done nothing to deserve this attack. Fuck Russia, piece of shit country run by evil.


Soviet Union? Did you hear Putin speech he dissed Lenin hard, as well as Khruschev handing of Crimea to Ukraine, as well as some slight of Stalin adding lands to Ukraine, this hardly a Communist, he a machivillian figure no doubt but a deal could be cut through a new minsk like agreement, he didn't go all the way on 2014, nor in 2008 in Georgia, this is a guy who maybe a thug to the west, and maybe rightfully so, that as long as he can cut a grand bargain will back down from advancing forward, he hardly a world domination type.



Catalanotto said:


> You might not want your family dying over something that is obviously insignificant to you, but, other people’s families are dying in an unprovoked attack by a sick fuck who can’t let the Soviet Union go. Ukraine went about their lives and because that goblin is afraid of NATO adding Ukraine, he’s decided to launch his invasion. Ukraine needs help, they are outnumbered by Russian military, they’ve done nothing to deserve this attack. Fuck Russia, piece of shit country run by evil.


Hey you want to fight go invade Moscow? Go ahead, everyone from the poles to Napaleon to iutler tried and got destroyed, right or wrong! containment and grand bargains i, the place of idealism is the right choice.


----------



## Lady Eastwood (Jul 10, 2006)

LifeInCattleClass said:


> Wow… Putin is a crazy sack of shit
> 
> my 2 Ukranian workers have moved out of the cities to family and safety
> 
> they are ok and that at least is a small blessing


Glad to hear your friends are well. Highways were jammed with people trying to get out. A kindergarten was also hit, no children were inside, but, a few teachers were injured.


----------



## KNSFFA (11 mo ago)

Yikes so got a alert on my phone that fighting has broken out elsewhere in Europe too? About to get ready for the day and turn on the news for background noise while working remote...is that actually true though about fighting breaking out elsewhere?


----------



## Lady Eastwood (Jul 10, 2006)

I had seen other countries had troops at borders, not sure if maybe that is what your alert was about.

@Flairwhoo84123: Putin wants the Soviet Union to return, he thinks it was a tragedy when it ended, he made no secret of his thoughts on it. Putin is angry about the west trying to “end Russia” after the fall of the Soviet Union, this is part of his revenge. Whether he will go all out and get it is another story, though, wouldn’t put it past him to at least try to some capacity, but, his idea of a “revived” Soviet Union is part of his vision. He wants to be “that guy” and handle it without losing it, like the others did.


----------



## BruiserKC (Mar 14, 2010)

At its lowest point in their trading day, the Moscow Exchange was down 45% of its overall value. That would be the equivalent of a 15,000 point drop of the Dow Jones. And the ruble is still in free fall. 

If we don’t intend to send troops in, crush their economy with heavy sanctions. Hit them in the wallets. UEFA has pulled the Champions League final which was scheduled for May 28 in St. Petersburg. Make it as financially painful as possible.






Moscow Exchange


Moscow Exchange, the largest exchange group in Russia, operates trading markets in equities, bonds, derivatives, the foreign exchange market, money markets and precious metals




www.moex.com









Flairwhoo84123 said:


> Soviet Union? Did you hear Putin speech he dissed Lenin hard, as well as Khruschev handing of Crimea to Ukraine, as well as some slight of Stalin adding lands to Ukraine, this hardly a Communist, he a machivillian figure no doubt but a deal could be cut through a new minsk like agreement, he didn't go all the way on 2014, nor in 2008 in Georgia, this is a guy who maybe a thug to the west, and maybe rightfully so, that as long as he can cut a grand bargain will back down from advancing forward, he hardly a world domination type.
> 
> 
> 
> Hey you want to fight go invade Moscow everyone from the poles to Napaleon to Hutler tried and got destroyed, containment and grand bargains implacable of idealism is the right choice.


Russian troops are already in control of an airfield 20 miles from Kyiv. All signs are pointing to a décapitation attempt to take out Zelensky and the Ukrainian government.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1496885437482287113
This will have worldwide ramifications and consequences. Ignoring this won’t change that fact.


----------



## Brittburgh (Oct 24, 2021)

BruiserKC said:


> At its lowest point in their trading day, the Moscow Exchange was down 45% of its overall value. That would be the equivalent of a 15,000 point drop of the Dow Jones. And the ruble is still in free fall.
> 
> If we don’t intend to send troops in, crush their economy with heavy sanctions. Hit them in the wallets. UEFA has pulled the Champions League final which was scheduled for May 28 in St. Petersburg. Make it as financially painful as possible.
> 
> ...


I know this would be highly illegal but if Ukraine could forge Russian currency and fly planes over Russia flooding the economy with fakes 
It would put the final nail in Russias economy

As much as I hate the Nazis 
It was an idea of theirs 
First they faked the pound 
Then the dollar 
The plan was to cripple Britain's economy then America to follow 
But thankfully they ran out of time and ended up using the cash for war sup plies.


----------



## BruiserKC (Mar 14, 2010)

Brittburgh said:


> I know this would be highly illegal but if Ukraine could forge Russian currency and fly planes over Russia flooding the economy with fakes
> It would put the final nail in Russias economy


Here’s what someone familiar says we should do. And Kasparov has been right.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1496865471995523080

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1496866560165695494

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1496867412746149891

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1496868686883397638

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1496869613392510977
https://twitter.com/kasparov63/status/1496871285917470720?s=21

Attacking at Chernobyl could make things even worse.

https://twitter.com/adamkinzinger/status/1496880407727734784?s=21


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## Brittburgh (Oct 24, 2021)

I know exactly who kasparov is 
I have his picture on my wall of him being dragged away at the pussy riot demonstration.
Plus I'm a huge chess fan 

Thanks for the links
@BruiserKC


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## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

Catalanotto said:


> Glad to hear your friends are well. Highways were jammed with people trying to get out. A kindergarten was also hit, no children were inside, but, a few teachers were injured.


ps> are you not in the Ukraine or Balkan region?

all ok your side?

or if i recall you moved to canada or something?


----------



## KNSFFA (11 mo ago)

Catalanotto said:


> I had seen other countries had troops at borders, not sure if maybe that is what your alert was about.


It was about the attack at Chernobyl.


----------



## JeSeGaN (Jun 5, 2018)

I have had enough of the world 'condemning' Russias BS and not having the balls to do anything about it.

With grandpa Biden around, I think it's a safe bet to not count on the USA for anything.


----------



## Mr. King Of Kings (May 16, 2006)

Russia will be allowed to return to their old Soviet days, China has been called the blueprint for a new world and will take Taiwan and whatever else China desires, they're building up smart city habitats in the mid-east, and on the other side you have the controlled demolition of the West. A new world is coming, folks.

The stage has been set. Things are going to get very weird very soon, and it's all by design. Prices will skyrocket, shortages will be guaranteed and so on. Problems have to be created in order to get to their solutions, and their solutions have already been in the books for decades.


----------



## Lady Eastwood (Jul 10, 2006)

LifeInCattleClass said:


> ps> are you not in the Ukraine or Balkan region?
> 
> all ok your side?
> 
> or if i recall you moved to canada or something?


I am not in Ukraine, I was there but hadn’t changed my flag for a while lol I’m in Canada.

@KNSFFA I had seen that the Russian soldiers took over Chernobyl, that’s frightening.


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## Dickhead1990 (Aug 31, 2016)

JeSeGaN said:


> I have had enough of the world 'condemning' Russias BS and not having the balls to do anything about it.
> 
> With grandpa Biden around, I think it's a safe bet to not count on the USA for anything.


With Trump, he'd be taking bribes from Putin. America and the west couldn't beat untrained guerrillas in Afghanistan, what chance do they have against Russia?

Sanctions are the way forward, which sucks for the vast majority of decent Russian people, that don't want this.

This whole situation is worrying, and Putin's meddling with our democracies has made us all weak. Remember all of the propaganda for Brexit, anti-wokeness, racial stirring etc. Yes, you all fell for it. We've been divided by this scheming regime and rendered impotent.


----------



## Mr. King Of Kings (May 16, 2006)

JeSeGaN said:


> I have had enough of the world 'condemning' Russias BS and not having the balls to do anything about it.
> 
> With grandpa Biden around, I think it's a safe bet to not count on the USA for anything.


The embarrassing departure from Afghanistan basically illustrated the beginning of the end for the USA. The USA has been infiltrated, used like a whore, and it feels like the world elite could be pulling the plug at any moment. Everything tells me that the arrow is pointing away from the USA. A controlled demolition, as I have said.


----------



## Lady Eastwood (Jul 10, 2006)

Trudeau was on tv telling Putin to pull his guys out LMFAO


Yeah, I’m sure the guy who just went batshit crazy, risking anything to invade a country, is gonna pack it up and go home cuz Justin Trudeau told him to.

Putin has shown no evidence of what he’s accusing Ukraine of, he just needed an excuse.


----------



## YamchaRocks (Dec 22, 2012)

Being serious for once, I currenty live relativetely close to Ukraine (in Germany) and have few friends there, they're really scared and the situation feels unreal. War is so terrible


----------



## Lady Eastwood (Jul 10, 2006)

Niagara Falls Canadian side will be lit up yellow and blue tonight at 9pm.


----------



## deadcool (May 4, 2006)

How do native Russians feel about Russia attacking Ukraine?


----------



## RealDealNow (May 21, 2021)

Catalanotto said:


> Niagara Falls Canadian side will be lit up yellow and blue tonight at 9pm.


Yeah Melbourne did that last night as well. I'm sure that will fix everything lol.


----------



## BrrrGoesWooo! (Mar 29, 2021)

Dickhead1990 said:


> With Trump, he'd be taking bribes from Putin. America and the west couldn't beat untrained guerrillas in Afghanistan, what chance do they have against Russia?
> 
> Sanctions are the way forward, which sucks for the vast majority of decent Russian people, that don't want this.
> 
> This whole situation is worrying, and Putin's meddling with our democracies has made us all weak. Remember all of the propaganda for Brexit, anti-wokeness, racial stirring etc. Yes, you all fell for it. We've been divided by this scheming regime and rendered impotent.


Bit different occupying a country and fighting a guerilla war against the locals and fighting a conventional war against an invading force. Conventional wars have a clear enemy, objectives that can be achieved and someone at the head of the opposing army that can be dragged to the negotiating table if shit's not working out for them. Afghanistan was just a matter of how long the Americans were willing to stay in the country and play policeman. They could have stayed another 20 years and it wouldn't have made much difference. 

Depending on Ukrainian resolve, the Russians might find themselves fighting their own guerilla war. Apparently Zelensky is offering to hand out weapons to anyone with a passport willing to fight against the Russians. Sounds pretty dangerous to me, but drastic times right. 


Catalanotto said:


> Trudeau was on tv telling Putin to pull his guys out LMFAO
> 
> 
> Yeah, I’m sure the guy who just went batshit crazy, risking anything to invade a country, is gonna pack it up and go home cuz Justin Trudeau told him to.
> ...


You mean what pretty much every other Western leader has been telling them? What do you want him to say? "Nah, s'all good go ahead and take it."


----------



## Lady Eastwood (Jul 10, 2006)

RealDealNow said:


> Yeah Melbourne did that last night as well. I'm sure that will fix everything lol.


It’s just nice to see the support, it’s obviously not going to make Putin pack up and leave lol



BrrrGoesWooo! said:


> You mean what pretty much every other Western leader has been telling them? What do you want him to say? "Nah, s'all good go ahead and take it."


I am aware he isn’t saying anything different, he is a fucking idiot, hilarious people voted him back in, it’s just nice to laugh at him say that. It is dumb they all said it. I get it’s PR shit, it is just stupid, everyone is aware it’s not going to solve anything. Actions, not words. It is a dumb generic statement.


----------



## FriedTofu (Sep 29, 2014)

JeSeGaN said:


> I have had enough of the world 'condemning' Russias BS and not having the balls to do anything about it.
> 
> With grandpa Biden around, I think it's a safe bet to not count on the USA for anything.


What do you want the world to do to Russia? Even a military action against Iran over nuclear weapons was considered a near impossible task besides leveling the area. What do you want the world to do against the 2nd most powerful military? Bomb Russia homeland and risk nuclear war?




Mr. King Of Kings said:


> The embarrassing departure from Afghanistan basically illustrated the beginning of the end for the USA. The USA has been infiltrated, used like a whore, and it feels like the world elite could be pulling the plug at any moment. Everything tells me that the arrow is pointing away from the USA. A controlled demolition, as I have said.


Dude...America can just about level any other country if they desire. Nobody is touching the USA.


----------



## scshaastin (Feb 24, 2016)

Saw senile Joe laughing it up today during a q and a session. I have no words for this behavior.


----------



## Clique (Sep 9, 2007)

There are Russian citizens that want it to be known that they are against Putin’s actions


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1496935308591607813








Russia Arrests More Than 1,700 Anti-War Protesters Amid Ukraine Invasion


A rare show of public dissent across Russia on Thursday was brutally suppressed.




www.huffpost.com


----------



## Brittburgh (Oct 24, 2021)

FriedTofu said:


> What do you want the world to do to Russia? Even a military action against Iran over nuclear weapons was considered a near impossible task besides leveling the area. What do you want the world to do against the 2nd most powerful military? Bomb Russia homeland and risk nuclear war?
> 
> 
> 
> Dude...America can just about level any other country if they desire. Nobody is touching the USA.


NATO would most likely wait until Russia has control of Ukraine and then make an attempt at bombing them back out by hitting the military stationed in Ukraine 
Which really doesn't bode well for the Ukrainians


----------



## Lady Eastwood (Jul 10, 2006)

deadcool said:


> How do native Russians feel about Russia attacking Ukraine?


Lots of anti-war, anti-Putin, protests in Russia with Russians shouting hands off Ukraine, and they are getting arrested for it.


----------



## RealDealNow (May 21, 2021)

Very brave of those people to protest. Respect.


----------



## Blade Runner (Jan 24, 2012)

Putin and Trudeau are both WEF lapdogs.

This whole thing is bread and circuses. Wars, food shortages, blackouts, climate crisises, viral outbreaks. All en route to 2030 where the entire world will look like Communist China on steroids.


----------



## FriedTofu (Sep 29, 2014)

Brittburgh said:


> NATO would most likely wait until Russia has control of Ukraine and then make an attempt at bombing them back out by hitting the military stationed in Ukraine
> Which really doesn't bode well for the Ukrainians


I think NATO will be moving troops to member states at the borders instead of going into Ukraine. Sadly this will have to be Ukraine's fight against the giant bear.


----------



## Lady Eastwood (Jul 10, 2006)

On Kyiv live feed, I don’t know what happened, but, lights out now on the left back half.


----------



## Brittburgh (Oct 24, 2021)

Catalanotto said:


> On Kyiv live feed, I don’t know what happened, but, lights out now on the left back half.
> 
> View attachment 117375


The Russians are most likely knocking out the lights to position themselves for an attack at the crack of dawn like they did this morning.
However 
They might send in troops to grab Zelenskyy under the cover of darkness.


----------



## BrrrGoesWooo! (Mar 29, 2021)

Catalanotto said:


> On Kyiv live feed, I don’t know what happened, but, lights out now on the left back half.
> 
> View attachment 117375


There's supposed to be a big bombing run/missile attack at 3AM. Apparently missiles have been seen launching from Belarus. These might be some early hits.

Good news though, apparently they were able to crush the Russians paratroopers trying to take Antonov/Hostomel airport 15km NW of Kyiv, they shot down about 7 helicopters and according to reports, Russian troop morale is pretty low.


----------



## Lady Eastwood (Jul 10, 2006)

If you guys have Facebook, type in “Kyiv live feed” and you will be able to watch that footage I posted an SS of. I saw bombing in the distance earlier, heard yelling later on, just sad.


----------



## GothicBohemian (May 26, 2012)

Some feeds have been shut down - a page I tried to load randomly replaced the unavailable Kyiv cam with live shots of Moscow  - but if you search there is at least one webcam site streaming from multiple Ukrainian cities.


----------



## Lady Eastwood (Jul 10, 2006)

Here is one for you guys:










【LIVE】 Webcam Kyiv - Ukraine | SkylineWebcams


Want to know what's happening in the Ukrainian capital? Take a look at this Kyiv live cam on Maidan Square. Travel to Ukraine with our webcams.




www.skylinewebcams.com


----------



## BrrrGoesWooo! (Mar 29, 2021)

The Ukrainian government said 3AM, still nothing happening yet on the ABC live feed outside Maidan Square. Guessing the SAM upgrades they got from the West are paying dividends. Their anti tank Javelin missiles have been really successful at halting columns so far it seems. 

And apparently Russia is rolling in mobile crematoriums to try and disguise their losses from the people at home. 

-------


*Evening Recap, February 24, 2022:*

The first full day of fighting has ended since our last recap. Ukrainian government sources announced that they have retaken the critical Hostomel air field near Kyiv from Russian forces that had been sent to secure it, as well as the Antonov air field in that vicinity. These were military objectives that Russia sought to take in order to facilitate the landing of air transports in their assault on the capital city. Ukrainian forces also began a counteroffensive in the South towards Kherson, an important city for Russia as it holds the canal that Russia sought to unblock to deliver water supplies to the Crimean peninsula. Ukrainian sources claim to have killed 350 Russian troops, though they claim to have sustained 137 deaths and 300 injured as well. Ukraine believes Russia has deployed 60 battalion tactical groups in the country at the moment, of 120 that Russia had amassed on its borders.

Still, US analysts believe that Kyiv is close to being encircled. Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky, in a statement to the nation, announced that saboteurs had already infiltrated the capital city as Russian and Belarusian forces advanced from the North, though he intended to stay in the city with his family. US intelligence has warned that Russian bombers will make a raid for Kyiv at 3AM local time (a little under an hour from now) as part of their "decapitation" strategy to take the city. While Ukrainian counteroffensives have taken place, Russian forces have also advanced extensively from Crimea over 100 km into the Ukrainian mainland. Shelling has also been heard in the port city of Mariupol in the Donbas, a critical port for Ukraine, and Russian forces continue to advance in an attempt to take the Southeastern city of Odessa on the Black Sea coast.

Albania and the United States intend to press the issue of a UN resolution to condemn Russia's invasion of Ukraine, though Russia is currently chair of the UN Security Council and also wields a veto on that body. President Biden is also dealing with the legality of potentially continuing to support Ukraine with lethal aid absent authorization from Congress. Democratic House Speaker Nancy Pelosi has said that lawmakers in Washington wish to provide an additional $600 million in weapons to help Ukraine, and Republican Senators including Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell are pressing on President Biden to enact harsher sanctions.

------

Hoping the best for Ukraine right now, but they seem to be winning the early defense at the moment.


----------



## Lady Eastwood (Jul 10, 2006)

Can I ask where you saw the 3am attack? I hadn’t seen that, but, when you mentioned it, I’ve been watching the live feed.

Great to see some good news at least, RIP to those who have died.

Also, it’s almost 3:45am in Kyiv.


----------



## BruiserKC (Mar 14, 2010)

BrrrGoesWooo! said:


> There's supposed to be a big bombing run/missile attack at 3AM. Apparently missiles have been seen launching from Belarus. These might be some early hits.
> 
> Good news though, apparently they were able to crush the Russians paratroopers trying to take Antonov/Hostomel airport 15km NW of Kyiv, they shot down about 7 helicopters and according to reports, Russian troop morale is pretty low.


It has been verified as true.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1496955441921810434
And the sanctions plus the tanking of the Moscow Exchange and the ruble have cost the super rich in Russia big money.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1496995389483982848
And the Ukrainian army is not going to give up without a fight. 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1497015621082624003


----------



## Lady Eastwood (Jul 10, 2006)

Ukrainians love their country and will fight to the death for her.


----------



## BrrrGoesWooo! (Mar 29, 2021)

Catalanotto said:


> Can I ask where you saw the 3am attack? I hadn’t seen that, but, when you mentioned it, I’ve been watching the live feed.
> 
> Great to see some good news at least, RIP to those who have died.
> 
> Also, it’s almost 3:45am in Kyiv.


Was on the reddit megathread, was announced on twitter by the Ukrainian government and the information was coming from the Americans, who have drones and satellites watching closely. The Belarussian front is the biggest risk at this point.


----------



## CowboyKurtAngle (Jul 18, 2014)

YamchaRocks said:


> Being serious for once, I currenty live relativetely close to Ukraine (in Germany) and have few friends there, they're really scared and the situation feels unreal. War is so terrible


It's worrying for everyone. I live a few miles from the nuclear submarine base in Scotland. It feels like the cold war is back.


----------



## BrrrGoesWooo! (Mar 29, 2021)

CowboyKurtAngle said:


> It's worrying for everyone. I live a few miles from the nuclear submarine base in Scotland. It feels like the cold war is back.


It's not cold brother..


----------



## grecefar (Dec 19, 2017)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1497011478070796295
If true that is the coolest thing ever and huge boost morale.


----------



## Lady Eastwood (Jul 10, 2006)

BrrrGoesWooo! said:


> Was on the reddit megathread, was announced on twitter by the Ukrainian government and the information was coming from the Americans, who have drones and satellites watching closely. The Belarussian front is the biggest risk at this point.


Thank you!

Here is hoping for more good news.


----------



## BrrrGoesWooo! (Mar 29, 2021)

Catalanotto said:


> Ukrainians love their country and will fight to the death for her.





grecefar said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1497011478070796295
> If true that is the coolest thing ever and huge boost morale.


If that is true that's amazing! Even if it's more than one pilot though, apparently the Russians are feeling the loss and their moral is low -- They weren't expecting this level of resistance. Upgraded SAM sites, Javelin missiles, more than 600 tanks and other mechanized forces have been working to keep the Russians at bay. 

The protests back in Russia and the collapse of their economy along with apparently $39billion being dropped off the stock market, is hopefully enough to bring Putin to his knees. Dude kind of committed political suicide with this move -- there is no defending this in any international court and those billionaire oligarchs that have had his back now for so long are gonna come looking for receipts.


----------



## Lady Eastwood (Jul 10, 2006)

I saw the $39 billion loss earlier, just WOW!!

Russia is too busy hating Ukraine to know the strength of the people. They will never fold.


----------



## Mainboy (Jan 30, 2012)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1497045920659423233


----------



## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

YamchaRocks said:


> Being serious for once, I currenty live relativetely close to Ukraine (in Germany) and have few friends there, they're really scared and the situation feels unreal. War is so terrible


Germany’s response will be the most interesting

do you think they participate in wide sanctions? They get all their gas from Russia - and its one of their largest export markets

on the flip side, i can’t see them not taking a strong position on this


----------



## FriedTofu (Sep 29, 2014)

Even the US isn't putting sanctions on Russian energy for now, so Germany is going to be really quiet on that front too.

Ukraine can only delay, not stop the advancement imo. The difference is military strength is too wide.


----------



## Lady Eastwood (Jul 10, 2006)

On my feed, it’s hard to see, but, on the left side where the lights are out, there’s a lot of smoke in the distance. A Ukrainian plane was sadly shot down and it hit a building, putting it on fire, so, not sure if that’s where the smoke is originating from.


----------



## BrrrGoesWooo! (Mar 29, 2021)

Catalanotto said:


> On my feed, it’s hard to see, but, on the left side where the lights are out, there’s a lot of smoke in the distance. A Ukrainian plane was sadly shot down and it hit a building, putting it on fire, so, not sure if that’s where the smoke is originating from.


Thought it was a Russian bomber? Some are saying it's a missile being knocked out by air defence. It looked to big to be a Ukrainian fighter.


----------



## Lady Eastwood (Jul 10, 2006)

BrrrGoesWooo! said:


> Thought it was a Russian bomber? Some are saying it's a missile being knocked out by air defence. It looked to big to be a Ukrainian fighter.


The news had said it was a patrolling Ukrainian plane shot down by Russians. It was CNN, so, it’s easy to accept they could be wrong.


----------



## BruiserKC (Mar 14, 2010)

Assets of Russian leaders and oligarchs being seized. More of thus


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1496607589936816128

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1497037483044921345

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1496981122655596548
Meanwhile, many of these folks that were saying, “Leave Putin alone” and “there’s not going to be a war” are now pivoting. A little too late.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1497021598167179265
In 2008, Bush 43 was told by Putin that Ukraine was not a Legitimate nation. He has acted like this for years. A handful of former members of WF called me a warmonger for saying Russia is our enemy and couldn’t be trusted. And those who are griping that Biden is too weak now would be bitching if he sent troops into Ukraine and accusing him of starting WW3.

So, there’s a lot of my own fellow Americans that should sit this one out. I remember a time when we could crack on each other but a foreign enemy was not allowed to. When a former president (Trump) and top Republicans are singing Putin’s praises, it’s just disgusting. 



Catalanotto said:


> The news had said it was a patrolling Ukrainian plane shot down by Russians. It was CNN, so, it’s easy to accept they could be wrong.


BBC is saying they are getting reports that it was a Russian jet shot down.


----------



## RealDealNow (May 21, 2021)

Saw a report that a Turkish (NATO) warship was accidentally shot with a missile in the Black Sea.

Edit: It's now being reported as a Turkish cargo ship.


----------



## shuttlesworth3 (11 mo ago)

Putin did not get suckered into this. Biden, the Democrats and the Republicans suckered themselves into this. Americans got suckered to take the shots. America is the sucker, not Putin. Putin is taking care of business in order to protect his country, while Democrats and Republicans allow their borders to be open and allow China to sucker them thru the Chinese owned media in the U.S. SUCKERRRRRRRS.


----------



## AthleticGirth (Jul 25, 2020)

LifeInCattleClass said:


> Germany’s response will be the most interesting


The reports from Brussels are that Germany, Italy and Cyprus have blocked a proposed EU consensus agreement to remove Russia from the SWIFT banking system. Germany and Italy rely on Russia for their gas and Cyprus doesn't want to push Russia strategically closer to Turkey. 

Putin's boldness is matched by the EU, NATO and UN's weakness. Kicking Putin's Russia out of SWIFT and creating a NATO no-fly zone would have prevented all this, but there's just not the political will or appetite to do that from the west. It's maybe now time to recognise all three bodies are relics of the Cold War and are no longer fit for purpose in the modern world. 

America's 'peace through strength' doctrine seems to have gone out the window. I look at Biden and I despair, Boris and Macron are not performing much better. What a fuck up.


----------



## THE_OD (Nov 21, 2016)

To all the Russian people protesting around the world. You guys a fucking heroes, and you have more guts then all the world leaders combined.


----------



## YamchaRocks (Dec 22, 2012)

LifeInCattleClass said:


> Germany’s response will be the most interesting
> 
> do you think they participate in wide sanctions? They get all their gas from Russia - and its one of their largest export markets
> 
> on the flip side, i can’t see them not taking a strong position on this


Sanctions I think and humanitarian help. Germany will act more assertively once Poland (my home country) is under threat, as occupied/russian Poland would mean a border with Russia.


----------



## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

YamchaRocks said:


> Sanctions I think and humanitarian help. Germany will act more assertively once Poland (my home country) is under threat, as occupied/russian Poland would mean a border with Russia.


i fear if the Russians invade Poland it might be too late to be assertive

we’ll see - stay safe mate


----------



## FriedTofu (Sep 29, 2014)

AthleticGirth said:


> The reports from Brussels are that Germany, Italy and Cyprus have blocked a proposed EU consensus agreement to remove Russia from the SWIFT banking system. Germany and Italy rely on Russia for their gas and Cyprus doesn't want to push Russia strategically closer to Turkey.
> 
> Putin's boldness is matched by the EU, NATO and UN's weakness. Kicking Putin's Russia out of SWIFT and creating a NATO no-fly zone would have prevented all this, but there's just not the political will or appetite to do that from the west. It's maybe now time to recognise all three bodies are relics of the Cold War and are no longer fit for purpose in the modern world.
> 
> America's 'peace through strength' doctrine seems to have gone out the window. I look at Biden and I despair, Boris and Macron are not performing much better. What a fuck up.


I don't think it is a fair criticism on these organizations. EU and NATO are bound by what they can do militarily. UN security council has Russia and China there to veto any actions. Can't whine about 'world government' and 'tyranny' about these organizations during peace time and then bitch about them taking the point of views of member states when making a huge decision over a warring situation.

You are being overly simplistic if doing those things before the start of the conflict would have prevented this. It would increase the price of the action, but costs does not seem to be as high a factor in the decision making of Putin over this situation.

It is so disheartening and hypocritical for how many are suckered into idealizing a tyrant like Putin as being bold, strong, and smart after 2 years of larping as victims of tyranny over pandemic measures.


----------



## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

This building is next to my worker’s house / an airplane crashed in it










the shops are empty and they cannot leave

i’m trying to see if we can help in any way

fuck Putin


----------



## JeSeGaN (Jun 5, 2018)

Anyone thinking that Ukraine can stop Russia should get a reality check.

It's only a matter of time. You can throw out all the slogans you want, it ain't helping. You can make all the #hashtags you want, that ain't changing anything either.


----------



## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

JeSeGaN said:


> Anyone thinking that Ukraine can stop Russia should get a reality check.
> 
> It's only a matter of time. You can throw out all the slogans you want, it ain't helping. You can make all the #hashtags you want, that ain't changing anything either.


You mean ‘thoughts and prayers’ sentiments and hashtags and ’we stand with Ukraine’ facebook posts doesn’t do shit?

What will all the celebrities and politicians do now??


----------



## JeSeGaN (Jun 5, 2018)

LifeInCattleClass said:


> You mean ‘thoughts and prayers’ sentiments and hashtags and ’we stand with Ukraine’ facebook posts doesn’t do shit?


It doesn't. In case you were serious.

How is tweeting a lil' picture helping someone that got bombed or got a bullet in the head?


----------



## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

JeSeGaN said:


> It doesn't. In case you were serious.
> 
> How is tweeting a lil' picture helping someone that got bombed or got a bullet in the head?


i wasn’t serious - i was mocking the celebrities and politicians and social warriors alongside you


----------



## JeSeGaN (Jun 5, 2018)

LifeInCattleClass said:


> i wasn’t serious - i was mocking the celebrities and politicians and social warriors alongside you


Sh*t, that flew right above my head...

Sorry, bro.


----------



## GothicBohemian (May 26, 2012)

Sorry for the multipost but it's the only way to get the entire sequence of tweets in due to media limits

Something shared on another forum:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1496827281196597255

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1497106536828710912

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1497106592315195404

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1497107515896741892

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1497107518144888849
(continued below)


----------



## GothicBohemian (May 26, 2012)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1497109585613578243

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1497112293787721737
I know a few people living in Russia and not one of them supports this, nor do any of my Russian acquaintances here in Canada.


----------



## Mr. King Of Kings (May 16, 2006)

FriedTofu said:


> Dude...America can just about level any other country if they desire. Nobody is touching the USA.


That's why they're (slowly) being destroyed from within, through infiltration, thievery, blackmail and causing divisions; and transformed into something completely un-American.


----------



## Ger (Jul 20, 2018)

AthleticGirth said:


> The reports from Brussels are that Germany, Italy and Cyprus have blocked a proposed EU consensus agreement to remove Russia from the SWIFT banking system. Germany and Italy rely on Russia for their gas and Cyprus doesn't want to push Russia strategically closer to Turkey.
> 
> Putin's boldness is matched by the EU, NATO and UN's weakness. Kicking Putin's Russia out of SWIFT and creating a NATO no-fly zone would have prevented all this, but there's just not the political will or appetite to do that from the west. It's maybe now time to recognise all three bodies are relics of the Cold War and are no longer fit for purpose in the modern world.
> 
> America's 'peace through strength' doctrine seems to have gone out the window. I look at Biden and I despair, Boris and Macron are not performing much better. What a fuck up.


So we are back to this blame game nonsense and certain people even like such posting, although you already exposed yourself as completly uneducated, like we worked out in past. In London the russian money is washed since decades and nothing was done about that. Why? Cause UK lacks industry (thx u Thatcher) and put everything on financial market.
The gas thing is just again this typical stupid shit I am tired to hear about, because it ignores all the facts. Germany got a contract with netherlands, but people in netherlands are revolting, because the gas fields cause earthquakes!! Germany is a high energy industry country with lot of people and industry. So where the heck shall these countries got their gas and other resources from? UK already got trouble organizing it and prices went up there like crazy. At the moment there are not even deliveries from russia, they slowed down since month to blackmail germany to use North Stream 2, Putin even said that multiple times. Regarding the SHIT I read on this board, we better had opened NorthStream2 months ago. Had us safed a lot of effort and money and the english speaking loud mouthes are criticising anyway.
Also - again - I getting fkn tired of some %$§"%"$§ on that board try to blame germany for everything going wrong on this planet. All this blabla will lead to russia selling all their stuff to china in the long run, so an alliance between russia and china is going to be forced. And where are our beloved people from UK and USA helping Ukraine? I don't see them fighting in Ukraine.
UK left EU, when they are worried about refugees. The Ukraine refugees will go in most cases to EU countries. I am really sick and tired of these english speaking countries having a big mouth all the time and nothing is behind it.

The russian expansion goes on and if the next nutcase in US or UK is elected, these countries will backstab the european countries within the next second. We don't trust US and UK anymore, so keep your mouth shut, as long you do symbol politics at best and critic other countries for stuff, which you are not doing yourself.


----------



## GothicBohemian (May 26, 2012)

Really sorry about the heap of posts all at once. 

I realize many don't approve of people, men in particular, leaving a country at war. I see both sides of it though; _what would I do if I was in the same situation?_ I don't know, and that's why I don't judge. I see pictures of these men fleeing and the ones that break my heart are the guys snuggling small dogs or cats in their coats. That's what they have left for comfort and want to save it. I saw a photo of one young man scratching his cat's ears while sitting on a bus and was overwhelmed thinking how this same man might be forced to fight and kill and possibly die all because of the whims of a foreign madman. 

Here's someone who didn't run for shelter:

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1496983880494198789


ATTENTION MODS: I have a couple of links to eastern European news and video sources but I'm hesitant to share them because one is a Telegram account of dubious origin about war in general and the other is controversial in Belarus. I decided not to link them, but if I get the go-ahead, I will under a spoiler tag.


----------



## FriedTofu (Sep 29, 2014)

Mr. King Of Kings said:


> That's why they're (slowly) being destroyed from within, through infiltration, thievery, blackmail and causing divisions; and transformed into something completely un-American.


People are literally dying in a war and people like you who have the privilege and freedom of living in a superpower nation still cannot stop larping about being a victim. Freedumb radio and podcasts has rotted your brain.


----------



## Mr. King Of Kings (May 16, 2006)

Ger said:


> The gas thing is just again this typical stupid shit I am tired to hear about, because it ignores all the facts. Germany got a contract with netherlands, but people in netherlands are revolting, because the gas fields cause earthquakes!!


They'd love for us to embrace and beg for the alternative, and thus allowing Agenda 2030 to further unfold.



FriedTofu said:


> People are literally dying in a war and people like you who have the privilege and freedom of living in a superpower nation still cannot stop larping about being a victim. Freedumb radio and podcasts has rotted your brain.


I don't live in the US.


----------



## FriedTofu (Sep 29, 2014)

LifeInCattleClass said:


> This building is next to my worker’s house / an airplane crashed in it
> 
> View attachment 117408
> 
> ...


Pretty shocking the level of escalation. Just a few days ago we were joking about this not being too serious and here we are. Fuck Putin man.


----------



## Brittburgh (Oct 24, 2021)

Well that's me back on active duty which means the UK is calling up reserves into the standing army.


----------



## FriedTofu (Sep 29, 2014)

Mr. King Of Kings said:


> I don't live in the US.


That's even worse. You are parroting stupid talking points meant for the US audience.


----------



## Mr. King Of Kings (May 16, 2006)

FriedTofu said:


> That's even worse. You are parroting stupid talking points meant for the US audience.


No, I'm not. You have to be a fool to think that it's impossible to destroy a giant from within. Seems like you underestimate Russia and China or don't understand how the world elite thinks.


----------



## Trivette (Dec 30, 2013)

"Never underestimate Joe's ability to fuck things up."-Barack Obama.


----------



## FriedTofu (Sep 29, 2014)

Mr. King Of Kings said:


> No, I'm not. You have to be a fool to think that it's impossible to destroy a giant from within. Seems like you underestimate Russia and China or don't understand how the world elite thinks.


I don't think it is impossible, just that the people doing the destroying America from within isn't coming from China or Russia. It is Americans that want a bigger slice of the pie themselves. Larping as victims of China or Russia is just pathetic. Where do you think one of the destinations the superwealthy elites from those two countries are parking their money at? They love America. lol


----------



## Lady Eastwood (Jul 10, 2006)

@GothicBohemian I don’t have any issues with what you want to share, would be an interesting read/watch 

As for the forcing of men to fight…that’s a tough one. On one hand, it’s obviously a sad, scary situation to be forcing someone to fight with their life on the line, I couldn’t even imagine, but, at the same time, Ukraine needs all the help they can get and not being part of NATO doesn’t help, plus, the obvious hesitation from other countries to want to get too involved….Russia and China are two countries you don’t want to fuck around with, but, sad Ukraine is mostly on their own to fight.


----------



## Mr. King Of Kings (May 16, 2006)

FriedTofu said:


> I don't think it is impossible, just that the people doing the destroying America from within isn't coming from China or Russia. It is Americans that want a bigger slice of the pie themselves. Larping as victims of China or Russia is just pathetic. Where do you think one of the destinations the superwealthy elites from those two countries are parking their money at? They love America. lol


Victims? I'd go with stupidity if I want to be kind, but I'd go with treason if I mean business.

You seriously don't think that China has a ton of dirt on Biden? Or Russia with Trump? And why does America's greatest ally (Israel) seem like a Soviet hub if you dive too deep into it? Why has no one in the American leadership linked Israel with Russia and China? The USA, directly or through Israel, has practically build up China and made sure that Vladimir Putin still believes in the revival of the Soviet Union. How is that possible without infiltration, blackmail and treason?


----------



## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

Brittburgh said:


> Well that's me back on active duty which means the UK is calling up reserves into the standing army.


good luck mate


----------



## BruiserKC (Mar 14, 2010)

Biden is trying to make sure the Russians and Putin’s crew feels as much pain as possible without causing widespread disruption, which is exactly what would happen if Russia gets booted out of SWIFT. The economic consequences would be felt throughout Europe because of the money Russia has poured into it. Should it be an option? Yes. But be prepared for a huge seismic reaction in the European markets. 

Meanwhile, something to think about…


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1497053339787407362
For years, we saw what happens when the United States retreats from the world stage. And Russia is more then happy to fill the vacuum. And yet the world bitches. If Biden was bringing the hammer down, he’s a warmonger. Then if he backs off, he’s weak. Make up your mind, people. Either you want American involvement or you don’t. Because if we don’t lead, Russia and China will be willing to take charge. And you will not like it.

Now, as we watch, I know that we don’t want for it to come down to it. But, if we need to, are we willing to use military force to eject Russia from Ukraine? It might just come down to it. I guarantee you that Putin ain’t stopping with Ukraine. He will go after Poland and the Baltics next.


----------



## FriedTofu (Sep 29, 2014)

Mr. King Of Kings said:


> Victims? I'd go with stupidity if I want to be kind, but I'd go with treason if I mean business.
> 
> You seriously don't think that China has a ton of dirt on Biden? Or Russia with Trump? And why does America's greatest ally (Israel) seem like a Soviet hub if you dive too deep into it? Why has no one in the American leadership linked Israel with Russia and China? The USA, directly or through Israel, has practically build up China and made sure that Vladimir Putin still believes in the revival of the Soviet Union. How is that possible without infiltration, blackmail and treason?


Why would it be treason if you don't even live in America?

Why do you care about Israel here and not India, Japan, Belarus or even Turkey in this situation? Stop larping as a non-American American. lol


----------



## Lady Eastwood (Jul 10, 2006)

Russia (and China) need to be taken down, it’s not gonna happen just by these sanctions, I’m sure Putin knew that would probably happen, does he look like he gives a shit? His vision is strong enough that he went ahead with the invasion without a care in the world while threatening the rest of the world if they get involved and knowing China would back him, anyway. They refuse to call it an invasion, I mean, really, what it is then, just visiting and accidentally blowing everything up?


----------



## Brittburgh (Oct 24, 2021)

LifeInCattleClass said:


> good luck mate


Thanks mate


----------



## FriedTofu (Sep 29, 2014)

Catalanotto said:


> Russia (and China) need to be taken down, it’s not gonna happen just by these sanctions, I’m sure Putin knew that would probably happen, does he look like he gives a shit? His vision is strong enough that he went ahead with the invasion without a care in the world while threatening the rest of the world if they get involved and knowing China would back him, anyway. They refuse to call it an invasion, I mean, really, what it is then, just visiting and accidentally blowing everything up?


Those two countries' regimes kind of have huge armies and are pretty big in land mass and have nukes. The whole world didn't even intervene in Syria that was of much smaller scale. What you are proposing is the scale of WW3.


----------



## Brittburgh (Oct 24, 2021)

Catalanotto said:


> Russia (and China) need to be taken down, it’s not gonna happen just by these sanctions, I’m sure Putin knew that would probably happen, does he look like he gives a shit? His vision is strong enough that he went ahead with the invasion without a care in the world while threatening the rest of the world if they get involved and knowing China would back him, anyway. They refuse to call it an invasion, I mean, really, what it is then, just visiting and accidentally blowing everything up?


The reality of the situation is 
China will expand over the next 15 years until the point where they over extend their armed forces 
Yes, their standing army is huge but so is the territory they need to defend so half their army is for defence alone.
If America,France or any other army of sizable force challenge them as is 
We will lose.
China is going to be a long drawn out process but they will over reach at some point 
Then the west will strike


----------



## CowboyKurtAngle (Jul 18, 2014)

Brittburgh said:


> Well that's me back on active duty which means the UK is calling up reserves into the standing army.


Hope you are not needed


----------



## GothicBohemian (May 26, 2012)

Catalanotto said:


> @GothicBohemian I don’t have any issues with what you want to share, would be an interesting read/watch
> 
> As for the forcing of men to fight…that’s a tough one. On one hand, it’s obviously a sad, scary situation to be forcing someone to fight with their life on the line, I couldn’t even imagine, but, at the same time, Ukraine needs all the help they can get and not being part of NATO doesn’t help, plus, the obvious hesitation from other countries to want to get too involved….Russia and China are two countries you don’t want to fuck around with, but, sad Ukraine is mostly on their own to fight.


Ukraine really is all alone in many ways right now. It must be terrible for people living there to have to decide what actions are best for them and their families.

Anyway, here are a couple of sources posting news or videos. As mentioned in a prior post, one of these is very sketchy but is sharing video from people in Ukraine;



Spoiler:  Use your judgement.



So this exists:









Реальная Война | Украина Новости


Новости, сводки с фронта, ключевые события — расскажем обо всём, что нужно знать в Украине. По вопросам рекламы: @media_ua




t.me






I'm NOT endorsing the above Telegram account since I know nothing about it and I found the link via a forum populated by a ton of members with some questionable political views, just passing it along since it has a lot of information and videos. Some of the more graphic ones floating around social media are coming from this account. 



And this is the NEXTA on Twitter. They also have Telegram and VK accounts:


https://twitter.com/nexta_tv




NEXTA is considered extremist by the Belarusian government due in part to their actions during the 2020 protests. Interacting with a NEXTA account can prompt criminal charges for anyone in Belarus, so keep that in mind.


----------



## CowboyKurtAngle (Jul 18, 2014)

Brittburgh said:


> The reality of the situation is
> China will expand over the next 15 years until the point where they over extend their armed forces
> Yes, their standing army is huge but so is the territory they need to defend so half their army is for defence alone.
> If America,France or any other army of sizable force challenge them as is
> ...


Over a decade ago, Chinese ships landed on Africa and armed despots in exchange for a percentage of their mineral resources. And have already made deals in Latin America too. They have been playing the long game for a while.









China And Russia Make Critical Mineral Grabs in Africa While the U.S. Snoozes


The importance of critical minerals to the energy transition and future economic growth is undeniable. Amidst the rising social and environmental costs of mining, less scrupulous countries like Russia and China are capitalizing on soaring demand.




www.forbes.com


----------



## Brittburgh (Oct 24, 2021)

CowboyKurtAngle said:


> Hope you are not needed


Thanks 
I haven't been briefed yet but I think i will end up in one of the border states to Ukraine by the looks of it.


----------



## CowboyKurtAngle (Jul 18, 2014)

Brittburgh said:


> Thanks
> I haven't been briefed yet but I think i will end up in one of the border states to Ukraine by the looks of it.


All I can say is good luck.


----------



## Brittburgh (Oct 24, 2021)

CowboyKurtAngle said:


> All I can say is good luck.


Thanks mate 
I appreciate it.


----------



## CowboyKurtAngle (Jul 18, 2014)

Ukraine: 'I'm surprised the oil price hasn't hit US$130 a barrel yet' – energy trading expert Q&A


Most of the emphasis has been on the threat to Europe’s gas needs, but if Russian crude oil is restricted, it will cause even greater problems.




theconversation.com





_Energy prices shot up after Russian President Vladimir Putin shocked the world by ordering a full-scale invasion of Ukraine. Oil is trading over US$100 (£75) a barrel for the first time since 2014 and natural gas prices jumped back towards the highs of late last year, although both eased a little the day after the invasion.

Europe gets most it's oil from Russia_


----------



## FriedTofu (Sep 29, 2014)

GothicBohemian said:


> Ukraine really is all alone in many ways right now. It must be terrible for people living there to have to decide what actions are best for them and their families.
> 
> Anyway, here are a couple of sources posting news or videos. As mentioned in a prior post, one of these is very sketchy but is sharing video from people in Ukraine;
> 
> ...


They must be seething about giving up their nukes in the 90's. Iran and other countries will be using this as a lesson in pursuing nukes after this.



CowboyKurtAngle said:


> Over a decade ago, Chinese ships landed on Africa and armed despots in exchange for a percentage of their mineral resources. And have already made deals in Latin America too. They have been playing the long game for a while.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This is the same game the West has been playing too. China and Russia are just able to offer better terms because their local population don't care about the bad PR of arming local despots as much as the west.


----------



## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

I have a building in east germany, and i was trying to get my guys out and get them to go there

this is the message i got back now


----------



## BruiserKC (Mar 14, 2010)

An interesting segment from an interview of former President Nixon in 1992. He was spot on with where we are now. 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1496976277659598849



Catalanotto said:


> Russia (and China) need to be taken down, it’s not gonna happen just by these sanctions, I’m sure Putin knew that would probably happen, does he look like he gives a shit? His vision is strong enough that he went ahead with the invasion without a care in the world while threatening the rest of the world if they get involved and knowing China would back him, anyway. They refuse to call it an invasion, I mean, really, what it is then, just visiting and accidentally blowing everything up?





FriedTofu said:


> Those two countries' regimes kind of have huge armies and are pretty big in land mass and have nukes. The whole world didn't even intervene in Syria that was of much smaller scale. What you are proposing is the scale of WW3.


If Putin is ultimately successful in his conquest of Ukraine, he will move onward. He is fully intending to revive the old Soviet Empire, and he will feel like no one will stop him. We may have to eventually use force to stop him.

What scares me is what they could potentially do with Chernobyl if they see things not going their way. During the Persian Gulf War the Iraqi Army burned Kuwaiti oil fields as they retreated. If forced to retreat the Russians would be willing to instigate a meltdown of Chernobyl to poison the land, possibly the entire nation of Ukraine and beyond.


----------



## Brittburgh (Oct 24, 2021)

BruiserKC said:


> What scares me is what they could potentially do with Chernobyl if they see things not going their way. During the Persian Gulf War the Iraqi Army burned Kuwaiti oil fields as they retreated. If forced to retreat the Russians would be willing to instigate a meltdown of Chernobyl to poison the land, possibly the entire nation of Ukraine and beyond.


I doubt Putin would put his own nation at such risk by exposing fissile isotopes and gamma radiation into the air intentionally.
It would be to obvious plus lethal to many Russians.
After the last Chernobyl meltdown 
Ovarian cancer and many others peaked across Europe and Russia
Plus we are still dealing with the Japanese meltdown 
Even though though the Japanese government tell us its nown safe but get your giGer counter out and the truth is a different matter 
Yet all the same symptoms from the chernobyl disaster are still springing up across Asia 
I think China would pull their support as well
It would be to fatal to Putin and his plans to be so reckless


----------



## Dmight (Aug 31, 2016)

BruiserKC said:


> What scares me is what they could potentially do with Chernobyl if they see things not going their way. During the Persian Gulf War the Iraqi Army burned Kuwaiti oil fields as they retreated. If forced to retreat the Russians would be willing to instigate a meltdown of Chernobyl to poison the land, possibly the entire nation of Ukraine and beyond.


Calm down. They wouldn't because it would be lethal for their allies Belarus as well.


----------



## Dmtse (Oct 1, 2017)

Hello, guys! I’m from Russia, Moscow, lived here all my life. Normally I do not participate in forums, I prefer reading stuff and I’ve been reading this forum for a few years now. Why? Well, back in 2000 we had Smackdown on one of our TV channels, I was a teenager (now I’m 34) and I just fell in love with it. I’m happy I could touch a small piece of attitude era before things started to change (Austin heel turn, botched Invasion, brand split…). Since then I stayed with WWE though now I prefer to read news and results and fast forward big events.
I love USA culture – Bon Jovi’s my fav band since childhood, WWF 2000/2001 colored my teenage years, I am into your movies and tv series. I worked in big and well-know USA company and loved my time there.

But why do I bother you with all of this? Cause you see, now I sit here with tears in my eyes, cause there’s war in our lands. Our people kill each other right now and I pray for war to end as soon as possible. And I know that you say that we are evil, Putin is satan, Russia wants to restore the Empire, conquer everyone and blahblahblah.
You know what? From our perspective it is a little not like that. No one here wants war, even satan Putin.

It’s USA who bullies everyone else in the world for decades. And It’s USA who came to the borders of my country with your NATO bullshit to dictate your economic interests in expense of others in the future. It’s your country who played games and corrupted Ukraine politicians to actually rent its territories for NATO forces (yeah, I know, cause all Western world should be protected from evil Russia, glorious purpose).

You do not know what actually happened with civilians in so-called “separatist” regions of Ukraine for the last 8 years. You know none of real people from there in person to tell you how it is to live at war. You do not get what and why actually happened in Crimea and why it needed to happened. You know nothing I believe about Minsk agreements and why they were botched by current Ukraine goverment (not sure if you know, but mr. Zelenskiy before being a president was as comic, imagine if Eddie Murphy, but stupid, suddenly became your president in hard times). Spoiler – they were botched because according to them USA and NATO were to be prevented from having their f'n forces near our country borders. And people were dying all those years because of this. 
Actually your politicians should be very happy now drinking champagne cause we kill each other here, while they sit on another continent and eat popcorn.

I can understand that we live on over-populated planet with limited resources and there always be a struggle between nations. But methods of your elites are dirty, with no dignity and respect.
A lot of time were taken by us in order to prevent military resolution of the problems your government created in “independent” Ukraine. Since December we tried to force negotiations. In expense of lives of simple people in “separatist” regions supported by evil Russia with imperial ambitions starting from 2014. It’s you who came to our borders, not us. It’s USA who loves to solve your problems and stick your nose everywhere using military forces.
No hate for people, but complete despise for your politicians/elites and their methods.

Damn, sorry for emotions, I do understand that wrestling fans here have nothing to do with the situation, but all this talks about “pure evil satan hilter putin” and “Saint Peaceful JohnCena West”, while our people – both Russian and Ukraine – die at this very minute, they just make me sick so much. I do not ask you to say – wow, we were so wrong and you are so right. But guys, pls, consider, that there’s another point of view. This is no black/white good/evil stuff. There’re interests of opposite sides.
If you want to know to understand a bit better what’s happening, for example: 




Should you have any questions to me regarding how we are presented current events or facts why do I feel the way I described – I will do my best to answer.


----------



## rich110991 (Aug 27, 2020)

Dmtse said:


> Hello, guys! I’m from Russia, Moscow, lived here all my life. Normally I do not participate in forums, I prefer reading stuff and I’ve been reading this forum for a few years now. Why? Well, back in 2000 we had Smackdown on one of our TV channels, I was a teenager (now I’m 34) and I just fell in love with it. I’m happy I could touch a small piece of attitude era before things started to change (Austin heel turn, botched Invasion, brand split…). Since then I stayed with WWE though now I prefer to read news and results and fast forward big events.
> I love USA culture – Bon Jovi’s my fav band since childhood, WWF 2000/2001 colored my teenage years, I am into your movies and tv series. I worked in big and well-know USA company and loved my time there.
> 
> But why do I bother you with all of this? Cause you see, now I sit here with tears in my eyes, cause there’s war in our lands. Our people kill each other right now and I pray for war to end as soon as possible. And I know that you say that we are evil, Putin is satan, Russia wants to restore the Empire, conquer everyone and blahblahblah.
> ...


Can Putin not just put the kettle on, have a cup of tea and chill out?

I swear every country should be ran by a woman, instead of stupid men who want to play Call of Duty in real life.

There’s just no need for it, anywhere.


----------



## KNSFFA (11 mo ago)

Spent yesterday trying to escape from the ongoing news after spending all Wednesday night to Thursday 5am looking for every bit of update I could find. So this thread is a good resource for updates and to share concerns. Thanks to everyone keeping it updated.


----------



## AuthorOfPosts (Feb 9, 2020)

The Russian military is acting in a very US military sort of way. Not sure if they're committing as many war crimes but it's unfortunate nonetheless.

Can't see other countries investing heavily into this war to stop Russia. Countries very rarely go after other countries that could actually compete with them. That's the cowardly nature of these world leaders that like to wage war.


----------



## Lady Eastwood (Jul 10, 2006)

Dmtse said:


> Hello, guys! I’m from Russia, Moscow, lived here all my life. Normally I do not participate in forums, I prefer reading stuff and I’ve been reading this forum for a few years now. Why? Well, back in 2000 we had Smackdown on one of our TV channels, I was a teenager (now I’m 34) and I just fell in love with it. I’m happy I could touch a small piece of attitude era before things started to change (Austin heel turn, botched Invasion, brand split…). Since then I stayed with WWE though now I prefer to read news and results and fast forward big events.
> I love USA culture – Bon Jovi’s my fav band since childhood, WWF 2000/2001 colored my teenage years, I am into your movies and tv series. I worked in big and well-know USA company and loved my time there.
> 
> But why do I bother you with all of this? Cause you see, now I sit here with tears in my eyes, cause there’s war in our lands. Our people kill each other right now and I pray for war to end as soon as possible. And I know that you say that we are evil, Putin is satan, Russia wants to restore the Empire, conquer everyone and blahblahblah.
> ...


Just a few things, some of us DO know real people from Ukraine, it has been discussed in this very thread.

No one thinks the west is some super innocent power that never does anything wrong…I am not sure what kind of news you read or people you know from the west, but, that’s not at all how it is.

I get you want Russia to not look as bad to the west as it does, but, come on….most of your leaders, past and present, have proven they can’t be rational human beings. Putin is a tyrant and needs to be euthanized. I’m not saying he is the only leader who is a sack of shit, but, right now, the focus is on him. He doesn’t give a fuck about human life. Zelenskyy tried to get him to talk about this maturely and he instead acted cold against him and invaded a country while people were asleep in their beds. I have no idea how anyone can find any reason to defend Putin as a human being in any capacity.

The Russian people are not all horrible, as sometimes presented to be (during this war, they are being presented in the west in a very positive light) I’ve met plenty of nice ones, and, the newer generations get along with Ukrainians just fine, most of the older generation who had the hatred (my grandmother hella did) have passed away, so, the personal feelings many Ukrainians had during the world wars where they were being slaughtered and starved to death by Russia hasn’t been held against anyone. I’m not sure if you assumed that in the west, Russians bad! It is mostly the leaders you get in power that are looked at as pieces of shit.


----------



## BruiserKC (Mar 14, 2010)

Dmtse said:


> Hello, guys! I’m from Russia, Moscow, lived here all my life. Normally I do not participate in forums, I prefer reading stuff and I’ve been reading this forum for a few years now. Why? Well, back in 2000 we had Smackdown on one of our TV channels, I was a teenager (now I’m 34) and I just fell in love with it. I’m happy I could touch a small piece of attitude era before things started to change (Austin heel turn, botched Invasion, brand split…). Since then I stayed with WWE though now I prefer to read news and results and fast forward big events.
> I love USA culture – Bon Jovi’s my fav band since childhood, WWF 2000/2001 colored my teenage years, I am into your movies and tv series. I worked in big and well-know USA company and loved my time there.
> 
> But why do I bother you with all of this? Cause you see, now I sit here with tears in my eyes, cause there’s war in our lands. Our people kill each other right now and I pray for war to end as soon as possible. And I know that you say that we are evil, Putin is satan, Russia wants to restore the Empire, conquer everyone and blahblahblah.
> ...





Catalanotto said:


> Just a few things, some of us DO know real people from Ukraine, it has been discussed in this very thread.
> 
> No one thinks the west is some super innocent power that never does anything wrong…I am not sure what kind of news you read or people you know from the west, but, that’s not at all how it is.
> 
> ...


Apparently we have some clout over there if the Russian troll farm has made their way…right here…to Wrestlingforum! 

_cheap Mick Foley pop_


----------



## Hayabusasc (Dec 19, 2009)

Dmtse said:


> Hello, guys! I’m from Russia, Moscow, lived here all my life. Normally I do not participate in forums, I prefer reading stuff and I’ve been reading this forum for a few years now. Why? Well, back in 2000 we had Smackdown on one of our TV channels, I was a teenager (now I’m 34) and I just fell in love with it. I’m happy I could touch a small piece of attitude era before things started to change (Austin heel turn, botched Invasion, brand split…). Since then I stayed with WWE though now I prefer to read news and results and fast forward big events.
> I love USA culture – Bon Jovi’s my fav band since childhood, WWF 2000/2001 colored my teenage years, I am into your movies and tv series. I worked in big and well-know USA company and loved my time there.
> 
> But why do I bother you with all of this? Cause you see, now I sit here with tears in my eyes, cause there’s war in our lands. Our people kill each other right now and I pray for war to end as soon as possible. And I know that you say that we are evil, Putin is satan, Russia wants to restore the Empire, conquer everyone and blahblahblah.
> ...


I've seen some nonsense in my time on this forum but this takes the biscuit. People like you are enablers for Putin and his behaviour. 

The USA are not saints, that I agree with and they've got a lot to apologise for but it's Russia who are shelling hospitals and kindergartens in Ukraine right now.


----------



## AthleticGirth (Jul 25, 2020)

Russia have been kicked out of the Eurovision Song contest, that'll teach the Katsaps. Russia's gay community will be devastated. 


It's sickening to see what's happening in Ukraine. And still no strong leadership from the West.


----------



## Brittburgh (Oct 24, 2021)

Dmtse said:


> Hello, guys! I’m from Russia, Moscow, lived here all my life. Normally I do not participate in forums, I prefer reading stuff and I’ve been reading this forum for a few years now. Why? Well, back in 2000 we had Smackdown on one of our TV channels, I was a teenager (now I’m 34) and I just fell in love with it. I’m happy I could touch a small piece of attitude era before things started to change (Austin heel turn, botched Invasion, brand split…). Since then I stayed with WWE though now I prefer to read news and results and fast forward big events.
> I love USA culture – Bon Jovi’s my fav band since childhood, WWF 2000/2001 colored my teenage years, I am into your movies and tv series. I worked in big and well-know USA company and loved my time there.
> 
> But why do I bother you with all of this? Cause you see, now I sit here with tears in my eyes, cause there’s war in our lands. Our people kill each other right now and I pray for war to end as soon as possible. And I know that you say that we are evil, Putin is satan, Russia wants to restore the Empire, conquer everyone and blahblahblah.
> ...


Please note
If Russia is flooded with fake currency with in the next few weeks 
Myself and Britain would like to claim all deniability.

Just kidding 
All joking aside 
Unfortunately for Russia 
their reform has been rejected by the west since it holds many of the same principles as the old and no one wants another cold war on their hands.


----------



## VodooPimpin (Oct 10, 2021)

InexorableJourney said:


> First it's Ukraine, then it's Poland, then it's the end of the World.


I don’t know anything about this but that’s how it looks . Putin seems to want the smoke. What I’m worried about is Putin taking Ukraine and then wanting more. The scary thing is he doesn’t seem to mind going to war with whoever. Pretty sad though what I’m seeing on there news how they are bombing neighborhoods and running over cars and crap.


----------



## Blade Runner (Jan 24, 2012)

Mr. King Of Kings said:


> They'd love for us to embrace and beg for the alternative, and thus allowing Agenda 2030 to further unfold.


These globalists manipulate all nations and geopolitics.

This doesn’t mean they completely control everything from the top down, they don’t, they just stage events and scenarios.

This is why they want this global top down centralised level of control and hooking everyone up to A.I. it was the ultimate aims of all these wars are all about. All part of the 4th Industrial Revolution.

However, a situation is being made to occupy Russia with the Ukraine that has completely been stirred up by the west to divide the nation, insight civil war and Russia comes in and it’s the Russians attacking Ukraine and their own people.

It’s basically Nazi Germany again and the framing of Poland and later France etc

Who are these western powers to have a say in anything to do with Russia and Ukraine?

These situations are taking place on Russias doorstep, by design.

They have a say because they’re behind the “sovereignty” of Ukraine and have something to lose by this “sovereignty” not being maintained…

It has absolutely nothing to do with these western powers but they’ve manipulated this to psychologically frame events and create chaos.

So everyone else can be put under the thumb and squeezed by way of war and what such an atmosphere enables these maniacs to carry out and occupy many nations through a false spectre of war.

The war is on everyone and ensure compliance.

If they could get away with it, war would be openly declared on all those

1. Not accepting Global Government

2. Not accepting the many “Vaccines”

3. Not accepting the “SMART” Grid surveillance and RFID Chip

4. Not accepting the one true A.I. God and bleed your heart out for everything Transhumanism

They can’t do that as the people wouldn’t fight it. So instead, they have the deception of war on Russia and China through Middle East and Ukrainian conflict.

The prior Ukraine “Civil War” - if it should actually be called that it’s globalists at work - has mostly been ignored or downplayed in western media for years apart from around the time of geopolitical stunts and the war in Syria. Another “Civil War” situation 🙄

During this time of occupying Russia, situations will escalate involving The Dome of the Rock and then between Israel and the Iran.

Iran will be blamed for some sort of terror event around this situation of The Dome of the Rock and it would be desirable for this Zionist objective that Russia is occupied by war and exhausted by economic sanctions so they will think twice about getting involved in this situation.

A state of chaos for the whole world is desirable when this incident occurs and then they’ll accept psychological framing.

At this time, we also have the biggest censorship under way many of us have witnessed in our own lifetimes, especially ever since we’ve had an internet.

All of this is war and the foundation for war being developed so anyone and everyone can be shut down from saying what’s going on.

COVID has been in part a tool to ensure this mass censorship is underway and then being extended to “hate speech”.

As, Iran will obviously respond to this and would seek alliances of Russia.

Situations involving the chaos in Syria has been setup to aid these wars.

It should be known that these are really wars on everyone and these nations are just a stage to exercise that war on everyone. They’re a theatre to wage war on the world and get everyone to do what these parasites want everyone to do.

These are just a cover to exercise those additional powers globally as well as reshaping the world eventually, destroying the old system beyond all recognition so people will want, desire and beg for what many of us see now for what it is, global tyranny so long as it comes with those comforts we are use to, become familiar and now expect.

It’s the globalists bullying Russia into submission but we are being spun Russia as the bully’s. But, Russia are an aid of these globalists as their actions even if inevitable, then allow the equally inevitable spin of all the above, so these powers can be exercised on all of us under the threat of war and such war time powers that, like everything “COVID EMERGENCY” allows an apparent democratic country to be able to act no different to a tyrannical dictatorship, simply because of an apparent “emergency”. It doesn’t matter if it’s real, staged or cooked up so that tyrannical dictatorship can exist as we have been psychologically primed to accept and allow this under the pretext of an emergency, everything can just go out the window and the masses will comply.

The masses need to see the deception underway…

In all, it’s a mass globalist population control exercise.

These scenarios could be used for a war on resources to create their hunger games society, which in part is obviously well underway this would just be an extension at some point in time.

Eventually leading to compliance with everything this system of control wants or else you don’t get access to your resources.

This can be vaccines and microchipping etc

Another aspect can even be, many people have the idea of military style concentration camps and being forced vaccinated and such.

The other way is conscription due to war and you then being forced into vaccination and being ID Tagged etc because you yourself become the military or will find yourself in the gulag.

War is a good tool to impose things you can’t impose without the threat and fear of such War.

This is ultimately why this is happening now, they’ve exhausted in many nations what they can get way with in terms of everything they've tried in the last 2 years, and unless we are extremely naive, we can’t talk about these escalations in the Ukraine without the context of widespread emerging Fascism being brought into the picture, along with how this all aids this Global Agenda


----------



## Lady Eastwood (Jul 10, 2006)

VodooPimpin said:


> I don’t know anything about this but that’s how it looks . Putin seems to want the smoke. What I’m worried about is Putin taking Ukraine and then wanting more. The scary thing is he doesn’t seem to mind going to war with whoever. Pretty sad though what I’m seeing on there news how they are bombing neighborhoods and running over cars and crap.


Putin has made his thoughts clear in the past he is upset about the fall of the Soviet Union. He definitely wants it back, Ukraine is just his first step.


----------



## Brittburgh (Oct 24, 2021)

KYRA BATARA said:


> These globalists manipulate all nations and geopolitics.
> 
> This doesn’t mean they completely control everything from the top down, they don’t, they just stage events and scenarios.
> 
> ...


Looking back now 
it's freaky how George Orwell foretold of how many of these issues would come to pass in his book 1984
It really has become 
War is peace 
Freedom is slavery 
Ignorance is strength

He was military intelligence during WW2 though


----------



## VodooPimpin (Oct 10, 2021)

Catalanotto said:


> Putin has made his thoughts clear in the past he is upset about the fall of the Soviet Union. He definitely wants it back, Ukraine is just his first step.


That’s what I’m afraid of I feel Ukraine is step one. It almost seems to me he waited for Biden to get in office to go through with it. Which brings the question don’t get mad but what do u guys think trump would do in this situation


----------



## InexorableJourney (Sep 10, 2016)

VodooPimpin said:


> That’s what I’m afraid of I feel Ukraine is step one. It almost seems to me he waited for Biden to get in office to go through with it. Which brings the question don’t get mad but what do u guys think trump would do in this situation


Immediately shut down the Nord 2 stream gas pipeline. Trump wouldn't have allowed it in the first place.

In the eight months it has existed it has generated more than $9bn for Russia, or to put another way enough money to fund a prolonged war.


----------



## AthleticGirth (Jul 25, 2020)

VodooPimpin said:


> That’s what I’m afraid of I feel Ukraine is step one. It almost seems to me he waited for Biden to get in office to go through with it. Which brings the question don’t get mad but what do u guys think trump would do in this situation


The annexation of Crimea happened soon after the West's decision to not wipe out Assad in Syria (because the UK government lost a parliamentary vote when the hard left and right combined their vote) and this current invasion has happened after the humiliating Afghanistan withdrawal. Weakness like this is blood in the water for a shark like Putin.

If Trump was US President Putin, as deranged as he is, wouldn't have gone ahead with this invasion.


----------



## CowboyKurtAngle (Jul 18, 2014)

Dmtse said:


> Hello, guys! I’m from Russia, Moscow, lived here all my life. Normally I do not participate in forums, I prefer reading stuff and I’ve been reading this forum for a few years now. Why? Well, back in 2000 we had Smackdown on one of our TV channels, I was a teenager (now I’m 34) and I just fell in love with it. I’m happy I could touch a small piece of attitude era before things started to change (Austin heel turn, botched Invasion, brand split…). Since then I stayed with WWE though now I prefer to read news and results and fast forward big events.
> I love USA culture – Bon Jovi’s my fav band since childhood, WWF 2000/2001 colored my teenage years, I am into your movies and tv series. I worked in big and well-know USA company and loved my time there.
> 
> But why do I bother you with all of this? Cause you see, now I sit here with tears in my eyes, cause there’s war in our lands. Our people kill each other right now and I pray for war to end as soon as possible. And I know that you say that we are evil, Putin is satan, Russia wants to restore the Empire, conquer everyone and blahblahblah.
> ...


If only our leaders could communicate as amicably as this. You're right as in every country has done shitty things. Being in the UK, we've not exactly been angels in our past. Even recently, there are people here still want Tony Blair in the Hague for war crimes for the Iraq war. I think everyone just wants the same thing. Some sort of agreement and compromise to end this as soon as possible. I wish our leaders left the school playground threatening to do this and that to each other, and just grew up. And most of the west didn't give a shit about Ukraine until that plane got shot down.


----------



## Mr. King Of Kings (May 16, 2006)

KYRA BATARA said:


> These globalists manipulate all nations and geopolitics.
> 
> This doesn’t mean they completely control everything from the top down, they don’t, they just stage events and scenarios.
> 
> ...


You covered a lot here. Problem is that there's so much confusion. It's meant to be that way. We all try our best to make sense of (or ignore if we can't) the situation so we don't go absolutely bonkers.


----------



## BrrrGoesWooo! (Mar 29, 2021)

BruiserKC said:


> An interesting segment from an interview of former President Nixon in 1992. He was spot on with where we are now.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1496976277659598849
> ...


I can't see them doing anything to Chernobyl, considering the wind blows north west. Most of the radiation would just end up in Belarus and Russia like it did in 86.. would be kind of a dumb move, just my opinion.


----------



## Lady Eastwood (Jul 10, 2006)

Ukrainian Father Sobs As he Sends Daughter Away In Heartbreaking Video


A Ukrainian father and his daughter share an emotional final embrace as she boards a bus to safety in a viral video.




www.tmz.com





Extremely sad video.


----------



## Blade Runner (Jan 24, 2012)

Mr. King Of Kings said:


> You covered a lot here. Problem is that there's so much confusion. It's meant to be that way. We all try our best to make sense of (or ignore if we can't) the situation so we don't go absolutely bonkers.


I agree.


----------



## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

Dmtse said:


> Hello, guys! I’m from Russia, Moscow, lived here all my life. Normally I do not participate in forums, I prefer reading stuff and I’ve been reading this forum for a few years now. Why? Well, back in 2000 we had Smackdown on one of our TV channels, I was a teenager (now I’m 34) and I just fell in love with it. I’m happy I could touch a small piece of attitude era before things started to change (Austin heel turn, botched Invasion, brand split…). Since then I stayed with WWE though now I prefer to read news and results and fast forward big events.
> I love USA culture – Bon Jovi’s my fav band since childhood, WWF 2000/2001 colored my teenage years, I am into your movies and tv series. I worked in big and well-know USA company and loved my time there.
> 
> But why do I bother you with all of this? Cause you see, now I sit here with tears in my eyes, cause there’s war in our lands. Our people kill each other right now and I pray for war to end as soon as possible. And I know that you say that we are evil, Putin is satan, Russia wants to restore the Empire, conquer everyone and blahblahblah.
> ...


Nato never invaded Russia / even if they came right to the border they would not invade Russia - if they did, we all would be here writing how shit they are and ‘stand up for Russia’

there is no reason for the invasion of Ukraine

jog on mate


----------



## BrrrGoesWooo! (Mar 29, 2021)

KYRA BATARA said:


> These globalists manipulate all nations and geopolitics.
> 
> This doesn’t mean they completely control everything from the top down, they don’t, they just stage events and scenarios.
> 
> ...


Jeezus.. How do you keep you head from spinning off your shoulders with all this. You been taking lessons from Omega to compensate for the vertigo?

If it wasn't winter here I'd tell you to go touch some grass because ffs worrying about this much high level shit all at once is not good.

Also, trying to condense everything that's happened in the world since WWII into a 2 page essay isn't helping anyone, it just makes you sound confused and helps to confuse other people.

People have devoted their entire lives to explaining these things, you're not gonna do it in 500 words.



Mr. King Of Kings said:


> You covered a lot here. Problem is that there's so much confusion. It's meant to be that way. We all try our best to make sense of (or ignore if we can't) the situation so we don't go absolutely bonkers.


"It's meant to be that way." -- No, sometimes shit's just actually complicated.


----------



## Blade Runner (Jan 24, 2012)

BrrrGoesWooo! said:


> Jeezus.. How do you keep you head from spinning off your shoulders with all this. You been taking lessons from Omega to compensate for the vertigo?
> 
> If it wasn't winter here I'd tell you to go touch some grass because ffs worrying about this much high level shit all at once is not good.
> 
> ...


----------



## Brittburgh (Oct 24, 2021)

BrrrGoesWooo! said:


> Jeezus.. How do you keep you head from spinning off your shoulders with all this. You been taking lessons from Omega to compensate for the vertigo?
> 
> If it wasn't winter here I'd tell you to go touch some grass because ffs worrying about this much high level shit all at once is not good.
> 
> ...


I can explain it in two 
Empty platitudes

That's all Nazi Germany was built on 
Empty platitudes 
It's often the way of now 
Leaders word things very specifically so people take what they want from it and fill in the blanks to meet their own goals and perceptions


----------



## BrrrGoesWooo! (Mar 29, 2021)

KYRA BATARA said:


> View attachment 117433


@KYRA BATARA_ *when the redpill kicks in too hard*

"They're cumming for us all!!!"








_


----------



## Blade Runner (Jan 24, 2012)

BrrrGoesWooo! said:


> @KYRA BATARA_ *when the redpill kicks in too hard*
> 
> "They're cumming for us all!!!"_


----------



## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)




----------



## Lady Eastwood (Jul 10, 2006)

I don’t know if you guys saw the video of the Russian tank running over the car of an innocent Ukrainian…it’s disturbing, the man was just driving by and the tank practically drifted in the process of running him over…..and the man LIVED. Kudos to this guy, wow.

The video of his car getting run over is in the article.









Ukrainian Man Miraculously Survives Russian Tank Running Over His Car


Disturbing footage shows the military vehicle swerve and intentionally run the civilian car over, leaving it crushed and flattened.




www.thedailybeast.com


----------



## Ger (Jul 20, 2018)

LifeInCattleClass said:


> I have a building in east germany, and i was trying to get my guys out and get them to go there
> 
> this is the message i got back now
> 
> View attachment 117419


I heard more than once meanwhile, that on some parts of the borders the Ukraine border guards don't want males to leave the country.


----------



## Lady Eastwood (Jul 10, 2006)

Ger said:


> I heard more than once meanwhile, that on some parts of the borders the Ukraine border guards don't want males to leave the country.


Ages 18-60 are being told they have to stay and fight.


----------



## FriedTofu (Sep 29, 2014)

VodooPimpin said:


> That’s what I’m afraid of I feel Ukraine is step one. It almost seems to me he waited for Biden to get in office to go through with it. Which brings the question don’t get mad but what do u guys think trump would do in this situation


Whoever is in charge wouldn't matter. Bush Jr opened Pandora's box when he invaded Iraq two decades ago. That orange idiot might even make things worse by not leading Western sanctions or undermine sanctions doing shit like abstaining from the symbolic vote to condemn Russia in the UN security council. All in the name of conspiracy theories about one world governments.


----------



## RainmakerV2 (Nov 8, 2017)

Lul


----------



## Lady Eastwood (Jul 10, 2006)

RainmakerV2 said:


> View attachment 117441
> 
> 
> 
> Lul


This is a little different, there’s a war going on and they need it, it isn’t your regular every day situation where no, people don’t need one.


----------



## FriedTofu (Sep 29, 2014)

Catalanotto said:


> This is a little different, there’s a war going on and they need it, it isn’t your regular every day situation where no, people don’t need one.


To be fair, the regular every day life in America is school shootings and road rage shootings.


----------



## RainmakerV2 (Nov 8, 2017)

Catalanotto said:


> This is a little different, there’s a war going on and they need it, it isn’t your regular every day situation where no, people don’t need one.



Who says a war couldn't start here tomorrow? I have to wait and trust my government to airlift me supplies to defend myself? Why?


----------



## BrrrGoesWooo! (Mar 29, 2021)

Ger said:


> I heard more than once meanwhile, that on some parts of the borders the Ukraine border guards don't want males to leave the country.





Catalanotto said:


> Ages 18-60 are being told they have to stay and fight.


Yeah they're conscripting everyone they can. They've also already handed out 18 000 small arms (AK's) to anyone who was stuck in Kiev and was willing to fight or at the very least defend themselves. Russia stepped in the wrong garden with this one. Regardless of whether they can actually capture Kiev and capture the president, they're gonna be fighting a bloody insurgency for months at the very least. 

The Ukrainians are apparently already punching way above their weight and have killed more Russians/Belarussians than they've lost themselves. They've killed at least 1000 invaders and Poland is sending them more AT and AA missiles asap -- Lviv and it's airport was targeted pretty harshly today for this reason. 

In more awful news, there have been reports that Putin, being a sick bastard, is sending in "Kadyrovite's" -- paramilitary fighters from Chechnya known for their criminality and brutality, they were seen being loaded onto trucks headed west this morning. They've also apparently signed up at least 200 Pro-Assad Syrian fighters to come fight because.. why not. 

I think at this point he realizes they're gonna get bogged down, so he's going to send in these paramilitary forces to try and weed out resistance in the cities without involving legitimate Russian forces, and to try and cause as much havoc as they can.


----------



## BrrrGoesWooo! (Mar 29, 2021)

RainmakerV2 said:


> Who says a war couldn't start here tomorrow? I have to wait and trust my government to airlift me supplies to defend myself? Why?


Yeah I know.. all those Canadians massed along the border armed with donuts, coffee and hockey sticks -- It's all a very clever ruse to lull you into a sense of safety, until one week, the Canadian dollar is high and we all decide to come down and shop!! Relentlessly attacking good deals on quality (?) products MUAHAHAHA!!!!


----------



## Lady Eastwood (Jul 10, 2006)

Guys, sounds like they are getting pretty close, I know Zelenskyy had said earlier they are just hours away from Kyiv, if you watch this live stream from maiden square, you can hear bombing and gunfire quite a bit.


----------



## MarkOfAllMarks (Apr 7, 2018)

LifeInCattleClass said:


> i have a couple of mates in the Ukraine
> 
> they kinda seem like 'meh' about the whole thing - think it will be a non-event


This aged like milk


----------



## AthleticGirth (Jul 25, 2020)

BrrrGoesWooo! said:


> In more awful news, there have been reports that Putin, being a sick bastard, is sending in "Kadyrovite's" -- paramilitary fighters from Chechnya known for their criminality and brutality, they were seen being loaded onto trucks headed west this morning. They've also apparently signed up at least 200 Pro-Assad Syrian fighters to come fight because.. why not.


Just like in Chechnya a lot of the crimes and human rights abuses by Russian paramilitaries will be committed against ethnic Russians. The rank and file Russian army is poorly paid and ill disciplined with a history of treating civilians as their playthings. 


In depressing news Downing Street has warned us things will escalate badly within the next couple of days. This invasion was planned to be a swift operation and to avoid a protracted conflict Putin will use heavy artillery against civilians - he's already braced the world for it by accusing the Ukrainian military of using civilians as human shields.


----------



## BrrrGoesWooo! (Mar 29, 2021)

MarkOfAllMarks said:


> This aged like milk


I've heard similar reports from Ukrainians here on the radio and from Ukrainians in Ukraine.. it's not like they weren't watching shit, but they expected him to take the Russian enclaves in areas around Crimea he thought he could justify in an international court -- like he has done for decades now.

The vast majority of people weren't expecting this guy to piss his pants on a Thursday and start the largest invasion in Europe since WWII in partnership with Belarus.

Fuck, even China is telling him to back off the tip now -- You know it's bad when.



AthleticGirth said:


> Just like in Chechnya a lot of the crimes and human rights abuses by Russian paramilitaries will be committed against ethnic Russians. The rank and file Russian army is poorly paid and ill disciplined with a history of treating civilians as their playthings.
> 
> 
> In depressing news Downing Street has warned us things will escalate badly within the next couple of days. This invasion was planned to be a swift operation and to avoid a protracted conflict Putin will use heavy artillery against civilians - he's already braced the world for it by accusing the Ukrainian military of using civilians as human shields.


Eh.. Because there is a large enough actual military presence in the ethnic Russian areas (and they're being brought in by the Russian military,) they're going to push them forward into contested Ukrainian territories to cause as much chaos as they can to soften things up.

As for the playbook, he's using the Israeli's line of argument. Funny how they've been silent through all of this. But there is a difference. One of them is a 60 year insurgency/occupation in one of the most densely populated areas on earth in Gaza -- the other one was the largest invasion in Europe since WWII ruthlessly targeting a massive country who hasn't fired a shot until Thursday.

The human shield argument doesn't really work when everybody is fleeing a massive invading army. Yeah no shit, there's gonna be military where people are, because right now people are where the military is because they're trying to find a way out and the military is trying to defend them.

Putin's digging his own grave right now and for no apparent reason either.

What a fucking scumbag. 

I hope some of those billionaire oligarchs roll up with their own private armies and dome this fucker.


----------



## thatonewwefanguy (Feb 6, 2020)

LifeInCattleClass said:


> View attachment 117435


did you make this?
whoever did this did great


----------



## Ger (Jul 20, 2018)

Just listening to Kiew background sound. 

When reading this thread, I see how successful russia and other bad players were with manipulating peeps in other countries. I remember girth repeating russian propaganda in his forum weeks ago, then called me defending nazi germany in wrestling section and days later I am a leftist. Just because he is already corrupted by that russian propaganda and I was answering back. Even worse. One mod @Catalanotto liked his silly posting and another mod @Firefromthegods declined doing something about that. So a guy wrote shit here, defend a silly russian propaganda and when I talked bad, I get attacked in way, that most others would hesitate ever talking about this again, especially when even mods support ugly campaigns.
Other guys don't need to be necessary pro-Putin ... if they vote for idiots like Trump and Co for president and do everything to ignore serious manipulations, while making up stories about people from their own country betraying them, then the damage is done.
And if you adress multipliers (like Meta etc.) you also get attacked. Not even starting about telegram. If you got so many people in your society, who defend evil for no reason and do nonstop offender-victim switch and overstretch the society with distrust, then your society is lost. Ironically everybody thinks he or she is smart, not realizing that there is the right propaganda out there for everybody.
I still remember Trump standing next to Putin and doing high treason, while so many americans were so blinded, that they didn't see it. And Trump was close to be reelected. If such a person can become president and people - after all the shit he did - seriously want in big parts to reelect him, then russia & Co already got won.

Russia attacking Ukraine now is just the result of all of this happening, because the western societies became vulnerable. Evil players like russia and china used the freedom of speech against us, because idiots didn't understand that some stuff may not be ok to be said. If you don't defend the democracy, you will lose it. And you don't need to get conquered by foreign army for that. You can throw it away yourself. The war is going on since years and as long many good people totally look away and are amused a few alterters getting beat up in their corner of the eye, as long the travel goes to the "il-liberal democracy". In some countries you already got it (e.g., hungary) while other countries are on the best way. You don't have to be north-korea, to live in a bad system.

So it is good to see, that some people at least care about russia attacking Ukraine etc. But if we all had cared - I know that means work - to defend our democracies, then this stuff had not happened. In russia and china they are sitting and laughing about us. They laugh about silly americans voted for Trump or Britians leaving EU or hungary killing their democracy or brazilians elect that idiot Bolzonaro. 
And the really sad part is a few of you guys will totally ignore that, because you had to reflect yourself and before that happens, you prefer killing the person who questioned your comfort zone.


----------



## thatonewwefanguy (Feb 6, 2020)

FriedTofu said:


> To be fair, the regular every day life in America is school shootings and road rage shootings.


not all the time, there are sometimes murders in and around the surrounding area of Indianapolis and Gary IN


----------



## Lady Eastwood (Jul 10, 2006)

Scary times now….Russian forces apparently very close.


----------



## Roman Bellic (Nov 6, 2021)

This is the Orwellian Nightmare™ come to life 

People often ask "what will it be like living in the new world order ? The answer is you are already living in it ! 👀

Canada is a dystopian nightmare™ right now ! Freezing bank accounts, threatening to harm animals, police assaulting people, absolute tyranny !

America is full of degeneracy ! The country has almost legalized pedophilla at this point...

Australia is just .... A follower

Bro ! 

And what about the mark of the beast™ ☑ 

transhumanism

And so on ! 

I'm praying too God and hoping he'll forgive me 🙏 I suggest you do the same !


----------



## Pencil Neck Freak (Aug 5, 2013)

Catalanotto said:


> This is a little different, there’s a war going on and they need it, it isn’t your regular every day situation where no, people don’t need one.


 If I gave you an AR-15 today would you know what to do with it? (Presuming you don't have experience with weapons) I can see both sides of people wanting or not wanting guns in society. But if everyday citizens with no firearm experience are going to be handed firearms, wouldn't it be better if they were already armed and had experience with them? To me one of the biggest deters to America not being invaded is how well armed citizens are.


----------



## AthleticGirth (Jul 25, 2020)

Ger said:


> When reading this thread, I see how successful russia and other bad players were with manipulating peeps in other countries. I remember girth repeating russian propaganda in his forum weeks ago, then called me defending nazi germany in wrestling section and days later I am a leftist. Y, then russia & Co already got won.


No I didn't you squalid liar. I've never called you a 'leftist' either - you're anything but.

You simply got sand in your vagina because I criticised Germany.


----------



## BrrrGoesWooo! (Mar 29, 2021)

Pencil Neck Freak said:


> If I gave you an AR-15 today would you know what to do with it? (Presuming you don't have experience with weapons) I can see both sides of people wanting or not wanting guns in society. But if everyday citizens with no firearm experience are going to be handed firearms, wouldn't it be better if they were already armed and had experience with them? To me one of the biggest deters to America not being invaded is how well armed citizens are.


One of the greatest reasons for America not being invaded is because it's a massive country with a massive military, a massive economy and they're oceans apart from anyone else that could be a threat. 🤦‍♂️ 

Fuck sakes.


----------



## FriedTofu (Sep 29, 2014)

US, EU, UK to eject some Russian banks from Swift


Move will ensure that targeted Russian banks ‘are disconnected from the international financial system’ and follows pledges of financial and military support for Ukraine from Washington, London and Berlin.




www.scmp.com







> Earlier, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky was asked to evacuate from Kyiv at the behest of the US government but turned down the offer.
> “The fight is here; I need ammunition, not a ride,” Zelensky said, according to a senior American intelligence official with direct knowledge of the conversation, who described the leader as upbeat.


This is John McClane shit. This guy is willing to die defending his country. The odds are low but here's hoping he makes it out alive.


----------



## Lady Eastwood (Jul 10, 2006)

Ukrainians aren’t pussies, they’ll fight to the death.

Zelenskyy has balls, unlike a certain Canadian PM that tucked his tail between his legs and ran away from a bunch of truck horns.


----------



## THE_OD (Nov 21, 2016)

FriedTofu said:


> US, EU, UK to eject some Russian banks from Swift
> 
> 
> Move will ensure that targeted Russian banks ‘are disconnected from the international financial system’ and follows pledges of financial and military support for Ukraine from Washington, London and Berlin.
> ...


Refreshing to see a leader who stands by his country and its people in their most dire hour.


----------



## Brittburgh (Oct 24, 2021)

Really?
The Ukraine is about to be ruled by Russia 
Look at where they are now 
In two days time Kyiv will fall since no one is planning to send troops to help them
And Zelenskyy wishes the young and old alike to fight Russia when in reality 
More than a quarter of the people living in the Ukraine are former Russian nationals

The wise move now is conditional surrender 
If Kyiv falls 
All they will have on the table is unconditional surrender 
If he cared for his people he would try and give them good terms before he's outed from office 

Zelenskyy has shown his true colours 
He's as much a Machiavellian as Putin 
Never willing to surrender the power
@THE_OD


----------



## GothicBohemian (May 26, 2012)

Bellingcat Twitter:


https://twitter.com/bellingcat



Bellingcat are Investigative journalists focused on fact-checking. right now, they're looking into a lot of what's coming out of Ukraine, Russia, and surrounding interested nations. Disinformation is a huge factor in any military action these days. 


Irish newscaster not taking any bullshit from the Russian ambassador. 

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1497283552014213122
I'm not normally full of praise for Polish leadership but I have access to a couple of Polish Facebook groups organizing passage for Ukrainians (and their pets!) into Poland. The country has set up shelters and is waving most of the border-crossing requirements, including those for animals. Regular citizens are opening their homes and closing their shops to create additional places for displaced Ukrainians to stay. I won't post links to these groups in an open forum like this one because I don't want to bring too much outside attention to them. You never know who is lurking. But yeah, good on you Poland! One other thing - some Polish athletes are refusing to play against Russian teams internationally. 

I'm hearing something about Kazakhstan too, that they refused military support for Russia. If this is real, then that's a tiny nation putting itself at risk. 

The NEXTA link I shared earlier is an important one if you want to see what's happening with many of both the Russian and the Western propaganda filters removed, something mainstream outlets can't provide. Just remember, don't follow or comment on that account if you're viewing from Belarus as doing so has legal consequences there. 
https://twitter.com/nexta_tv (english)


Watch the second video to the end and see the reactions from representatives. It's interesting, and telling, about how international organizations really operate. Most other sources I've seen leave those latter moments out for a reason.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1497496849409888259



Dmtse said:


> Hello, guys! I’m from Russia, Moscow, lived here all my life. Normally I do not participate in forums, I prefer reading stuff and I’ve been reading this forum for a few years now. Why? Well, back in 2000 we had Smackdown on one of our TV channels, I was a teenager (now I’m 34) and I just fell in love with it. I’m happy I could touch a small piece of attitude era before things started to change (Austin heel turn, botched Invasion, brand split…). Since then I stayed with WWE though now I prefer to read news and results and fast forward big events.
> I love USA culture – Bon Jovi’s my fav band since childhood, WWF 2000/2001 colored my teenage years, I am into your movies and tv series. I worked in big and well-know USA company and loved my time there.
> 
> But why do I bother you with all of this? Cause you see, now I sit here with tears in my eyes, cause there’s war in our lands. Our people kill each other right now and I pray for war to end as soon as possible. And I know that you say that we are evil, Putin is satan, Russia wants to restore the Empire, conquer everyone and blahblahblah.
> ...


I do know people in Eastern Europe, including some in Russia. I hear a lot of fear from them; fear of war, fear of repercussions if they voice opposition, fear for how the world will judge them. I don't think of Russians as evil; in fact, I quite like Russian people in general. Good folks, for the most part. 

Don't assume people who back the Ukrainian side in this conflict are pro-western expansionism or warmongering - many of us are not. Whataboutism doesn't change anything. Speaking for myself, and that's the only person I can speak for, I don't approve of countries invading other sovereign nations. Regardless of who does it, it's wrong.


----------



## BruiserKC (Mar 14, 2010)

GothicBohemian said:


> Bellingcat Twitter:
> 
> 
> https://twitter.com/bellingcat
> ...


One huge hit to Russia would be their removal from SWIFT (Society of Worldwide Interbank Financial Telecommunication). It’s used to conduct transactions and relay information to banks worldwide. Quite a few European nations were reluctant to pull the trigger for the chaos it would cause to the European economy as a whole (especially for those who purchase Russia’s goods like natural gas and wheat). But Germany is now on board and according to Ukrainian officials Cyprus is not going to stand in the way.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1497496218359898116
Cyprus is a big financial partner with Russia and is notorious for being a haven for Russian banks’ laundering money. Now, Hungary is the one remaining holdout.

China abstained from voting on the UN Security Council resolution condemning Russia. That says they are backing away from supporting the Russians. Add that Kazakhstan is refusing to send troops and it’s looking more and more like Putin is becoming an international pariah.

And now looks like Hungary has said they will not block sanctions and are onboard with disconnecting from SWIFT.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1497543584572231683


----------



## Ger (Jul 20, 2018)

AthleticGirth said:


> No I didn't you squalid liar. I've never called you a 'leftist' either - you're anything but.
> 
> You simply got sand in your vagina because I criticised Germany.


I put links on the stuff, anyone can check the stuff I said. These links are not about critisicing germany, they are about you describing russia's bevaviour as legit, because you bought the propaganda of russia=USSR and USSR's claims being legit and the silly russian propaganda, that they can do everything they want because ww2 happened. Putin would be proud of you.


----------



## AthleticGirth (Jul 25, 2020)

Ger said:


> I put links on the stuff, anyone can check the stuff I said. These links are not about critisicing germany, they are about you describing russia's bevaviour as legit, because you bought the propaganda of russia=USSR and USSR's claims being legit and the silly russian propaganda, that they can do everything they want because ww2 happened. Putin would be proud of you.


Good grief, more of your tedious lies. 

Look, it's obvious to me your English comprehension isn't strong or nuanced enough for the robust combative debate you seem to want to enter into. You're now derailing a thread covering a serious topic with your nonsense so this is the last reply I'll give you.

I'll leave you with a reminder, Germany vetoed Baltic countries from providing the Ukrainian military German manufactured weapons. Germany denied the UK access to travel through its airspace to deliver weapons to Ukraine. Germany refused to expel Russia from SWIFT. Germany continues to greedily consume Russian gas financing the Russian war machine.


----------



## Ger (Jul 20, 2018)

@BruiserKC


AthleticGirth said:


> Good grief, more of your tedious lies.
> 
> Look, it's obvious to me your English comprehension isn't strong or nuanced enough for the robust combative debate you seem to want to enter into. You're now derailing a thread covering a serious topic with your nonsense so this is the last reply I'll give you.
> 
> I'll leave you with a reminder, Germany vetoed Baltic countries from providing the Ukrainian military German manufactured weapons. Germany denied the UK access to travel through its airspace to deliver weapons to Ukraine. Germany refused to expel Russia from SWIFT. Germany continues to greedily consume Russian gas financing the Russian war machine.


What has your amateurish description of germany politics to do with you defending russia doing the $"§$" they do, just because WW2 happened? Nothing, exactly. I won't discuss that with a guy, who turned himself into a russian agent on this board weeks ago. You are blind by propaganda! GO AWAY!


----------



## FriedTofu (Sep 29, 2014)

AthleticGirth said:


> Good grief, more of your tedious lies.
> 
> Look, it's obvious to me your English comprehension isn't strong or nuanced enough for the robust combative debate you seem to want to enter into. You're now derailing a thread covering a serious topic with your nonsense so this is the last reply I'll give you.
> 
> I'll leave you with a reminder, Germany vetoed Baltic countries from providing the Ukrainian military German manufactured weapons. Germany denied the UK access to travel through its airspace to deliver weapons to Ukraine. Germany refused to expel Russia from SWIFT. Germany continues to greedily consume Russian gas financing the Russian war machine.


To be fair, you bought into the Russian propaganda about fear of NATO as justification for Russia aggression in this situation in the thread he brought up. You bought in hook, line and sinker. Not to mention sympathy towards conspiracy theories with like-minded posters around here because of tribalism of sharing an anti-leftist belief. But I urge you not to fall into this trap so easily again as this isn't simply a left or right issue either. Online leftists were pushing the same narrative of fear of NATO too. Probably a good time to reconsider putting that much faith into the media you consume. Have to remember some media are contrarian for the sake of contrarian because that is the way they carve up a slice of the attention pie in the media landscape.


----------



## Mr. King Of Kings (May 16, 2006)

FriedTofu said:


> To be fair, you bought into the Russian propaganda about fear of NATO as justification for Russia aggression in this situation in the thread he brought up. You bought in hook, line and sinker. Not to mention sympathy towards conspiracy theories with like-minded posters around here because of tribalism of sharing an anti-leftist belief. But I urge you not to fall into this trap so easily again as this isn't simply a left or right issue either. Online leftists were pushing the same narrative of fear of NATO too. Probably a good time to reconsider putting that much faith into the media you consume. Have to remember some media are contrarian for the sake of contrarian because that is the way they carve up a slice of the attention pie in the media landscape.


Some people are so sick of the liberal order (just the sheer smugness and hypocrisy of it makes you want to vomit) that it makes them unknowingly promote a Pan-Eurasian superstate. People are tired of this dumb wokeness, but don't see that the anti-woke narrative is also heavily controlled. Seems like the elite has everything covered.


----------



## FriedTofu (Sep 29, 2014)

Mr. King Of Kings said:


> Some people are so sick of the liberal order (just the sheer smugness and hypocrisy of it makes you want to vomit) that it makes them unknowingly promote a Pan-Eurasian superstate. People are tired of this dumb wokeness, but don't see that the anti-woke narrative is also heavily controlled. Seems like the elite has everything covered.


As years goes by, people like you have to contend with feeding the beast just because you lost your shit over something inconsequential instead of solving real problems. All because your feelings were hurt due to smugness of other people. Too weak to realize the world is chaotic, so you have to resort to thinking you are oppressed by a made-believe oppressor. Guess that's how religions were made.


----------



## Mr. King Of Kings (May 16, 2006)

Catalanotto said:


> Ukrainians aren’t pussies, they’ll fight to the death.
> 
> Zelenskyy has balls, unlike a certain Canadian PM that tucked his tail between his legs and ran away from a bunch of truck horns.


The Ukrainians aren't pussies, but what do we really know about this Zelenskyy guy?














Vladimir Putin


1975, graduate, Law Department, Leningrad State University. 1975, with KGB Foreign Intelligence Service; Adviser to Rector, Leningrad State University; 1990, left KGB; Head, Mayor's External Relations Committee, St Petersburg; 1994, Deputy Mayor; Head, local branch, Our Home is Russia; 1996...




www.weforum.org












Volodymyr Zelenskyy


2000, JD in Law, Kyiv National Economic University. 1997-2003, Actor, Screenwriter, Creative Director, stand-up comedy contest team Quarter-95. 2003-11, Artistic Director, Studio Kvartal-95. 2011-12, General Producer, TV Channel Inter. 2013-19, Artistic Director, Studio Kvartal-95. Founder, NGO...




www.weforum.org


----------



## thatonewwefanguy (Feb 6, 2020)

Roman Bellic said:


> America is full of degeneracy ! The country has almost legalized pedophilla at this point...


the first one i can agree with but that second one we take kinda seriously, atl east in Indiana that i know of, dont know about the other states, i would imagine they are the same though, we value are childrens safety, entirely to much to be honest, most children either dont or cant go out on their bikes around the neighborhood and be kids, because we value are childrens safety to much
ignore" sorry for the little rant, kinda mad at the moment cause i cant get my contact in, but thats unrelated to this topic"ignore


----------



## thatonewwefanguy (Feb 6, 2020)

Catalanotto said:


> Ukrainians aren’t pussies, they’ll fight to the death.
> 
> Zelenskyy has balls, unlike a certain Canadian PM that tucked his tail between his legs and ran away from a bunch of truck horns.


*HEY!!!*
see, i am not actually apart of this conflict but those truck horns are* F*CKING LOUD!*


----------



## Blade Runner (Jan 24, 2012)

Mr. King Of Kings said:


> The Ukrainians aren't pussies, but what do we really know about this Zelenskyy guy?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wow


----------



## Mr. King Of Kings (May 16, 2006)

FriedTofu said:


> As years goes by, people like you have to contend with feeding the beast just because you lost your shit over something inconsequential instead of solving real problems. All because your feelings were hurt due to smugness of other people. Too weak to realize the world is chaotic, so you have to resort to thinking you are oppressed by a made-believe oppressor. Guess that's how religions were made.


You missed the entire point of my message.


----------



## BrrrGoesWooo! (Mar 29, 2021)

Good news. Apparently the Ukrainian Air Force just took out a whole column of support trucks headed to Kharkiv. Looked like about 20 trucks were destroyed. Word is that a lot of the troops are demoralized due to suffering heavy casualties, and are abandoning their equipment due to lack of fuel and food.

Ukraine has also blown all their rail connections to Russia.

Putin thought he could get this done quick but they weren't able to take out all their air defenses, and so now they're ground forces are getting bogged down.

Here's hoping for the best!


----------



## CamillePunk (Feb 10, 2011)

BruiserKC said:


> If you listened, really listened to Putin’s recent addresses regarding the situation in Ukraine, he said basically that it has no right to exist. Ukraine was entirely a creation of the Soviet Union and was stolen from them. We are supposed to ignore the history that Kyiv was founded nearly 700 years before Moscow and the Kyiv Rus empire was a thing from the 9th to 13th century.
> 
> Putin intends to revive the Soviet Union. He intends to use the support of these “breakaway republics” as a pretext for a full scale invasion. As his popularity wanes at home, he’s using this to bolster love at home and distract from his disastrous policies. An invasion and conquest of Ukraine will get him that as well as the notoriety he longs for.
> 
> ...


Ahh the classic "I don't want war BUT" post from Bruiser that he makes literally every time the US media is clamoring for war.


----------



## BruiserKC (Mar 14, 2010)

CamillePunk said:


> Ahh the classic "I don't want war BUT" post from Bruiser that he makes literally every time the US media is clamoring for war.


Sit this one out, Sparky. You pandered to Putin for years. This is partly a result of those of you who screamed about “endless wars”. And let me make this clear that I don’t want war, but there are times where you have to take a stand. I’m one of the very few folks here who understand what war is about close up. Putin is doing this because he has been enabled and pandered to.

This is not on us. This is not on the people of Ukraine. This war is Putin’s. He initiated it. You either deal with it or let him roll over people.

Take a seat.


----------



## CamillePunk (Feb 10, 2011)

BruiserKC said:


> Sit this one out, Sparky. You pandered to Putin for years. This is partly a result of those of you who screamed about “endless wars”. And let me make this clear that I don’t want war, but there are times where you have to take a stand. I’m one of the very few folks here who understand what war is about close up. Putin is doing this because he has been enabled and pandered to.
> 
> This is not on us. This is not on the people of Ukraine. This war is Putin’s. He initiated it. You either deal with it or let him roll over people.
> 
> Take a seat.


Ukraine will lose. NATO will do nothing that Putin has not already accepted would happen prior to his decision to invade. I'm not cheerleading him, just acknowledging reality. It puts no smiles on my face to see Europeans killing each other, believe me. The American empire is collapsing, thank God, and more losses are to come. My hope is for Russia to win as soon as possible, as its victory is certain anyway, to reduce the loss of human life. 

All of this talk of continuing to arm Ukraine will just prolong the war and end up with many more dead for the same result.


----------



## CamillePunk (Feb 10, 2011)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1496606788426383363
Not sure how much I believe this but it is indeed hilarious and plausible.  Going to be wild if the pro-war media manages to get him reelected by continuing to hammer Biden and turn public opinion against him on positions that just 10 minutes ago were widely popular, i.e getting out of Afghanistan.

I really hope not, but it seems inevitable. We will be sitting ducks under Republican leadership if there is another pandemic (not that the current one is over, 2-3k Americans dying every day from omicron rn), which, judging by how obese and retarded about public health Americans are, is very likely.


----------



## thatonewwefanguy (Feb 6, 2020)

CamillePunk said:


> The American empire is collapsing, thank God


hey, that american empire is my home, please dont trash talk my home


----------



## BruiserKC (Mar 14, 2010)

CamillePunk said:


> Ukraine will lose. NATO will do nothing that Putin has not already accepted would happen prior to his decision to invade. I'm not cheerleading him, just acknowledging reality. It puts no smiles on my face to see Europeans killing each other, believe me. The American empire is collapsing, thank God, and more losses are to come. My hope is for Russia to win as soon as possible, as its victory is certain anyway, to reduce the loss of human life.
> 
> All of this talk of continuing to arm Ukraine will just prolong the war and end up with many more dead for the same result.





CamillePunk said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1496606788426383363
> Not sure how much I believe this but it is indeed hilarious and plausible.  Going to be wild if the pro-war media manages to get him reelected by continuing to hammer Biden and turn public opinion against him on positions that just 10 minutes ago were widely popular, i.e getting out of Afghanistan.
> 
> I really hope not, but it seems inevitable. We will be sitting ducks under Republican leadership if there is another pandemic (not that the current one is over, 2-3k Americans dying every day from omicron rn), which, judging by how obese and retarded about public health Americans are, is very likely.




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1497386334255783938

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1497600924461813761

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1497619715337773059

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1497588852965400577
When Trump openly said that Putin was a genius and praised his move into the Ukraine, that had to be the most disgusting 🤢 thing I have ever heard. We have a political party now fully embracing a foreign enemy. Trump wouldn’t have done squat. We found out he talked a big fight but didn’t back it up. All hat, no cattle. 

Ukraine has every right to defend itself. Putin has made his intentions Crystal clear for years. His goal has always been the re-creation of the Soviet Empire. Back in 2008 he told Bush 43 that Ukraine did not need to exist. He has said the collapse of the Soviet Union is one of the greatest disasters in recent history. If he succeeds with minimal pain, he will continue on. Most likely the Baltic States and Poland are next. 

If you don’t want war, fine. But the Ukrainian people have the right to defend themselves. We are providing them weapons, as are other countries. Zelensky is saying he will defend his homeland to the end. You want to take the taste of war out of the mouths of the Russians? Make the victory as painful as possible.

We are already seeing it. Russian soldiers surrendering if they aren’t being killed. Thousands of protesters all across the cities in Russia speaking out against the war. His Allies and trading partners either backing away or speaking against it. Slowly, Putin and his homeland are becoming international pariahs. His win will be a Pyrrhic one. It will come at great cost.

If we have no intention of fighting alongside them, give them the tools they need. And let the Ukrainians take the fight to their invaders. God bless them. 



thatonewwefanguy said:


> hey, that american empire is my home, please dont trash talk my home


MAGA broke him. Might be the bleach Dear Leader told him to drink. 😁


----------



## BruiserKC (Mar 14, 2010)

Not going well, Comrade Putin?


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1497610355056562180

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1497659908866678786

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1497654047129563139

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1497660613937582084

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1497669574581497859


----------



## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

Lets take some time out to salute the Russian citizens protesting this war - their lives are under threat too


oh yeah, fuck Putin - just a reminder


----------



## FriedTofu (Sep 29, 2014)

CamillePunk said:


> Ukraine will lose. NATO will do nothing that Putin has not already accepted would happen prior to his decision to invade. I'm not cheerleading him, just acknowledging reality. It puts no smiles on my face to see Europeans killing each other, believe me. The American empire is collapsing, thank God, and more losses are to come. My hope is for Russia to win as soon as possible, as its victory is certain anyway, to reduce the loss of human life.
> 
> All of this talk of continuing to arm Ukraine will just prolong the war and end up with many more dead for the same result.


You act as if there wouldn't be armed resistance for years to come that will still result in lives lost even if Russia win this as soon as possible.


----------



## BruiserKC (Mar 14, 2010)

On thé battlefield, it’s still not going as planned for Russia. 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1497621078201585670

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1497762167365505026
And with their disconnection from SWIFT, their economy is going to go through some things.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1497738628944080898
And their friends are backing away from them.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1497628213392068612
Not to mention places to buy goods they need are not selling.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1497760912261922816
https://twitter.com/jkempcpa/status/1497697129304928257?s=21


----------



## Ghost Lantern (Apr 11, 2012)

Meanwhile here in America the left is rallying around Biden and his "sanctions", because what else moves the needle in American politics more than a war? The problem is the left only does "war" when they know they need votes. If Biden's numbers were not so low I guarantee you we would "consider the security threats in Russia": I have never seen CNN so "hawkish".

It's sickening. The problem is the right is no better.

The right is somehow declaring that if Trump were president (God help us) that, The Russians, would not have invaded. They are seriously blaming Biden for this war?

Who freaking cares either way!

It happened.

America stop basing your response to the election cycle. There are innocents dying, and it should not be parlayed into an election.

in 2022 War should not be happening. It's just so evil. Social Media did not exist the last time we had this kind of global conflict. Now we all see the war as reported by those who are there. Not the journalist who try to spin it.


----------



## FriedTofu (Sep 29, 2014)

CNN was always hawkish. They broke out due to their coverage of the first Gulf War.

The right is bitching Biden isn't doing enough and too weak, days after bitching Biden was overreacting and sucking off Putin because it made Biden look bad. But rallying around sanctions is bad somehow? What do you want the US to do other than sanctions? Not get involved at all and play pretend this isn't a major international situation?


----------



## Hawkke (Apr 2, 2012)

thatonewwefanguy said:


> the first one i can agree with but that second one we take kinda seriously, atl east in Indiana that i know of, dont know about the other states, i would imagine they are the same though, we value are childrens safety, entirely to much to be honest, most children either dont or cant go out on their bikes around the neighborhood and be kids, because we value are childrens safety to much
> ignore" sorry for the little rant, kinda mad at the moment cause i cant get my contact in, but thats unrelated to this topic"ignore


Sadly, the guy you quoted is pretty well correct when it comes to some areas like hollyweird and upper level politicians.


----------



## Ghost Lantern (Apr 11, 2012)

FriedTofu said:


> CNN was always hawkish. They broke out due to their coverage of the first Gulf War.
> 
> The right is bitching Biden isn't doing enough and too weak, days after bitching Biden was overreacting and sucking off Putin because it made Biden look bad. But rallying around sanctions is bad somehow? What do you want the US to do other than sanctions? Not get involved at all and play pretend this isn't a major international situation?


I want the US to do what is right and not try to politicize this conflict which was my point.


----------



## FriedTofu (Sep 29, 2014)

Ghost Lantern said:


> I want the US to do what is right and not try to politicize this conflict which was my point.


You see people rallying behind a president not committing land troops in the war zone and using sanctions as politicizing for more votes....If that is politicizing, anything will be that because you just don't like the guy. What should the reactions to sanctions be to be considered good enough for you? Not enough so lets put troops on the ground? No sanctions at all and let Europe handle their own problems?


----------



## Ghost Lantern (Apr 11, 2012)

You assume I don't like the guy? I voted for him buddy.


----------



## CamillePunk (Feb 10, 2011)

FriedTofu said:


> You act as if there wouldn't be armed resistance for years to come that will still result in lives lost even if Russia win this as soon as possible.


No I don't, but I appreciate that you were able to find something to disagree with me on for tradition's sake, even if it wasn't something I actually said or believe.


----------



## FriedTofu (Sep 29, 2014)

CamillePunk said:


> No I don't, but I appreciate that you were able to find something to disagree with me on for tradition's sake, even if it wasn't something I actually said or believe.


No problem. Remember to roll over when the imagined antifa invade your area to save lives.


----------



## JeSeGaN (Jun 5, 2018)

Let's remind ourselves that Putin only mobilized around ~30% of the troops he has for this war.

Ukraine will lose and Russia will somehow deal with those 'sanctions'. And if Szelinski is continuing to act so stupid, he'll get a bullet and that will be that.


----------



## RapShepard (Jun 20, 2014)

Ghost Lantern said:


> I want the US to do what is right and not try to politicize this conflict which was my point.


It's impossible for war to not be politicized.


----------



## Ghost Lantern (Apr 11, 2012)

RapShepard said:


> It's impossible for war to not be politicized.


You are probably right, and I hate it.


----------



## RapShepard (Jun 20, 2014)

Ghost Lantern said:


> You are probably right, and I hate it.


Yeah war is shit, but even if a country is jumping into a war because they genuinely think they're doing the right thing and only do defense. That's still a political statement of "we're right and must defeat this evil regime".


----------



## Ghost Lantern (Apr 11, 2012)

I guess I just wish we could all get behind a people who were being assaulted, without it being politicized. 

Maybe I am wrong, and we are actually doing that.

But I cannot help but think both parties have politized this.

Call me a battered voter.


----------



## Mr. King Of Kings (May 16, 2006)

You got an authoritarian on one side:





And you got morons and liars on the other side:





It's very easy to expose Vladimir Putin for what he is, but apparently the Western media still manages to be this stupid. It's nothing new either. I remember ABC news using footage from a shooting ranch in Kentucky and claiming it was in Syria. The media are doing this on purpose to make the West look as dumb and incapable as possible.


----------



## FriedTofu (Sep 29, 2014)

Isn't Bild like the Sun in the UK? Widely circulated but held in contempt and mocked by non-idiots.


----------



## GothicBohemian (May 26, 2012)

Following the same playbook many of us in the west are familiar with, mainstream Russian media has been given talking points and instructions not to refer to what is happening as a "war" or an "invasion"; instead, they talk about "special operations" and discuss small pockets of local "terrorists" using civilians as shields. If you're curious about what slightly less restricted Russian media is sharing, there are these options:

Novaya Gazeta (semi-mainstream but open what's occurring - Russian, but in-browser translation is a thing)
Новая газета - novayagazeta.ru

Echo of Moscow (radio - obviously in Russian. Be aware that they are funded by Gazprom)
https://echo.msk.ru/sounds/stream.html (radio stream)
https://echo.msk.ru/ (website)


Do you like to donate your money, your time, or even open your home? See below:

It's a small thing, but sometimes folks like to spend ethically: 
The barcode for products from Russia is 460 - 469.
Belarus - 481.

If you'd like to buy Ukrainian or from those supporting them:
Ukraine - 482.
Poland - 590.

National Bank of Ukraine is fundraising for the Ukrainian Armed Forces
NBU Opens Special Account to Raise Funds for Ukraine’s Armed Forces

9 Meaningful Ways You Can help Ukraine (this is a Global Citizen page, which a lot of people may dislike, but it links to other orgs)
9 Meaningful Ways You Can Help Ukraine

Places like the UK, Canada, USA, etc will have their own options as well, but some of the above go directly to Ukraine with no middle man or delays. 
Also, several countries bordering Ukraine, or in the same general region, have pages where you can sign up to offer shelter to Ukrainians fleeing the war, who are now mostly mothers and their children along with the elderly.


----------



## CowboyKurtAngle (Jul 18, 2014)

Crazy









UK’s Liz Truss: I support Brits who take up arms against Putin


The UK foreign secretary said the war in Ukraine was a fight for freedom and democracy for the ‘whole of Europe.’




www.politico.eu





“The people of Ukraine are fighting for freedom and democracy, not just for Ukraine but also for the whole of Europe because that is what President [Vladimir] Putin is challenging. And absolutely, if people want to support that struggle, I would support them in doing that,” Truss told the BBC’s Sunday Morning program. Asked to clarify if that meant taking up arms she said, “Absolutely if that’s what they want to do.”


----------



## BrrrGoesWooo! (Mar 29, 2021)

Sounds like the Russians have agreed to at least talk. They're sending a delegation to the Belarussian Border to meet the Ukranians.


----------



## BruiserKC (Mar 14, 2010)

JeSeGaN said:


> Let's remind ourselves that Putin only mobilized around ~30% of the troops he has for this war.
> 
> Ukraine will lose and Russia will somehow deal with those 'sanctions'. And if Szelinski is continuing to act so stupid, he'll get a bullet and that will be that.


Russia may have the manpower advantage, but the chances of a quick victory have evaporated. It’s been verified that the Russians have been repelled from Kharkiv. And now the Russian soldiers are looking for fuel for their vehicles and food for their bellies.

“_You will not find it difficult to prove that battles, campaigns, and even wars have been won or lost primarily because of logistics._” – Dwight D. Eisenhower


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1497623801617473544
The Ukrainians are sabotaging roads so the supply chain is disrupted. When Russian soldiers are begging for fuel and looting grocery stores for food, you know it’s not going as well as they expected. It’s especially important to keep supply chains running smoothly, especially in offensive campaigns.

Now, the Russians can send fresh troops in. That was how the Soviets fought the Germans, by sending fresh waves of forces. But time is not on their side.

On Monday morning the full ramifications of the removal of the Russian banking system from SWIFT will be felt. When the European markets open for trade on Monday, it will most likely be ugly for the Moscow Exchange.

Normally, this would be a first world problem, but this NBC News reporter sees the concerns firsthand by his interactions with the hotel he is staying at in Moscow.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1497710808683491342
And cash runs are going on all over Russia now.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1497906771180064775
And if this is true, this could especially be a big time game changer. Roughly 30% of Putin’s money is stored in Swiss financial institutions. You cut him off as well as other Russian money, and it’s going to get fugly pretty quickly.


__
https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/t2k8eb

Russia and Putin basically are international pariahs at this point. Any victory will be hollow. The truth is, if Ukraine had as good an Air Force or there was a no fly edict, Ukraine might have a chance to actually win.



BrrrGoesWooo! said:


> Sounds like the Russians have agreed to at least talk. They're sending a delegation to the Belarussian Border to meet the Ukranians.


CNN has reported a Ukrainian delegation will meet at the border with them. Don’t know if Zelensky will be part of it. He’s said he will talk but not there. He’s offered other options.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1497856332145348610
Also, his playing this card tells me it’s not going very well for him. 

https://twitter.com/bnonews/status/1497924440025350144?s=21


----------



## JeSeGaN (Jun 5, 2018)

BruiserKC said:


> Russia may have the manpower advantage, but the chances of a quick victory have evaporated. It’s been verified that the Russians have been repelled from Kharkiv. And now the Russian soldiers are looking for fuel for their vehicles and food for their bellies.


So it'll take a bit longer. Only means that more people will die on both sides. Again, what Ukraine 'repelled' is only a fraction of what is yet to come. 

Russia was a bit hasty in... well, kinda everything, I'll admit that. But even with all the leftovers they're getting from the world, Russia will not be stopped by a country like Ukraine. And I'm quite sure Putin expected those sanctions. Maybe not in this size, but expected regardless.


----------



## thatonewwefanguy (Feb 6, 2020)

Hawkke said:


> hollyweird


hollywood is one thing, but the entirety of the US on the other hand


----------



## DesolationRow (Oct 11, 2009)

JeSeGaN said:


> So it'll take a bit longer. Only means that more people will die on both sides. Again, what Ukraine 'repelled' is only a fraction of what is yet to come.
> 
> Russia was a bit hasty in... well, kinda everything, I'll admit that. But even with all the leftovers they're getting from the world, Russia will not be stopped by a country like Ukraine. And I'm quite sure Putin expected those sanctions. Maybe not in this size, but expected regardless.


This thread details precisely the game Putin is sagaciously playing with his allies in Beijing.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1497835894782382080
The Covid crisis was to homebound streaming services what this conflict is to international de-dollarization. A major, ostensibly ineluctable trend that is given a sweeping "kick" to rapidly accelerate.

The Chinese are prudently underwriting their autonomy from the apparently-"unipolar" world that the U.S. presided over between Mikhail Gorbachev's resignation on Christmas Day 1991 and February 2022, a thirty-year interregnum of sorts through Moscow's actions today. One can pinpoint the zeniths (probably the NATO campaign against small Serbia on behalf of Kosovo in early 1999) and the nadirs (the foolish, bloody 2003 invasion of Iraq, and the thuggish, catastrophic assault on Libya in 2011 which served as signpost for more powerful world players).

The Indians are demonstrating a willingness to be economically and diplomatically autonomous to an ever-increasing extent.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1497586729036890112

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1497081068427649025 Amusing thread.

Putin's not a "good guy," by any means, but Western arrogance vis-a-vis the Minsk accords directly opened the Pandora's box that is presently devastating Ukraine. It's a sad conflict that should have been easily avoided. Probably the best out of a bunch of terrible outcomes is an orderly reconstructing of Ukraine along sensible lines with as little violence as possible.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1497546966511001607

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1497201371724107778
http://twitter.com/mikenorman/status/1497703387026137089

http://twitter.com/ParthianCowboy/status/1497265539017633792

The big winner is, again, China, as has been the case for thirty years. The West's pushing of Russia into the dragon's arms is a geopolitical tragedy worthy of the Bard.


----------



## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

JeSeGaN said:


> So it'll take a bit longer. Only means that more people will die on both sides. Again, what Ukraine 'repelled' is only a fraction of what is yet to come.
> 
> Russia was a bit hasty in... well, kinda everything, I'll admit that. But even with all the leftovers they're getting from the world, Russia will not be stopped by a country like Ukraine. And I'm quite sure Putin expected those sanctions. Maybe not in this size, but expected regardless.


You can expect something - but dealing with it is another matter

he is literally pissing in the food bowl of all his major supporters and allies - if Oligarch funds and assets are frozen, their patience and support will run thin i think

China is now fearing sanctions by association. Its a cold place if the world decides to stop doing business with you

And lets not forget the Russian people - their patience is thin / and I guess even the patience of the police, who is forced to keep arresting Russians protesting

Ukraine cannot sustain a long-term offensive from Russia - it is true - but I am starting to have a feeling we are not in for a long-term offensive


----------



## JeSeGaN (Jun 5, 2018)

LifeInCattleClass said:


> Its a cold place if the world decides to stop doing business with you


Amen, brother.

If they're really getting kicked out of Swift then it's gonna be the beginning of a very, veeeeeery dark time for Russia. No wonder Putin gets more drastic by the minute (like his Atomic stunt from just a bit ago). And I'm not so sure China will even support him. And if China is out, then there is truly no one left.



LifeInCattleClass said:


> And lets not forget the Russian people


Problem is all the propaganda. If the media (i.e. Putin) is dictating what they're allowed to see (or not)... They won't show stuff about how long it takes, how many soldiers were killed, how much money it all costs...


----------



## Seafort (Jun 5, 2014)

JeSeGaN said:


> Amen, brother.
> 
> If they're really getting kicked out of Swift then it's gonna be the beginning of a very, veeeeeery dark time for Russia. No wonder Putin gets more drastic by the minute (like his Atomic stunt from just a bit ago). And I'm not so sure China will even support him. And if China is out, then there is truly no one left.
> 
> ...


What would happen if Russia used a single nuclear device as a threat? Perhaps targeting a German target in retaliation for their aid?

NATO alliance would mobilize, but Russia could then say then say that any military retaliation would be met with an overwhelming nuclear response. Thus we revert to MAD. Western countries respond with further sanctions. And then Putin threatens that any sanctions are military action and begin to threaten the same.

Ugly situation. I cannot believe we have a country threatening the deaths of hundreds of millions of people.


----------



## Mr. King Of Kings (May 16, 2006)

FriedTofu said:


> Isn't Bild like the Sun in the UK? Widely circulated but held in contempt and mocked by non-idiots.


What Western mainstream media-outlet isn't considered a joke at this stage? The point is that people are losing trust in Western institutions because of this. The corruption and amount of dirty lies are now so visible, even a child can see it. And that brings me back to my point of the controlled demolition that's currently taking place in the West.

If there's no trust in anything whatsoever, everything crumbles. The liberal order is collapsing as we speak, because it looks like the global elite is done with the liberal order. It's of no use to them anymore. Covid showed us a glimpse of what could replace it.


----------



## CowboyKurtAngle (Jul 18, 2014)

Seafort said:


> What would happen if Russia used a single nuclear device as a threat? Perhaps targeting a German target in retaliation for their aid?
> 
> NATO alliance would mobilize, but Russia could then say then say that any military retaliation would be met with an overwhelming nuclear response. Thus we revert to MAD.
> 
> Actually, I am starting to worry that he might view the sanctions as military action and begin to threaten the same.


That's what he wants. Us, to worry and question our leaders.


----------



## JeSeGaN (Jun 5, 2018)

Seafort said:


> What would happen if Russia used a single nuclear device as a threat? Perhaps targeting a German target in retaliation for their aid?
> 
> NATO alliance would mobilize, but Russia could then say then say that any military retaliation would be met with an overwhelming nuclear response. Thus we revert to MAD.
> 
> Actually, I am starting to worry that he might view the sanctions as military action and begin to threaten the same.


If they really did use atomic war (in any form and on anyone), then they'd get it from all sides. I doubt the world would let them get away with that. As strong as Russia is, as soon as America joins in, it's over. And again, China probably won't stand with Russia.


----------



## Pencil Neck Freak (Aug 5, 2013)

Not sure if this has been posted already but this is absolutely fascinating.


----------



## Seafort (Jun 5, 2014)

L Aww


JeSeGaN said:


> If they really did use atomic war (in any form and on anyone), then they'd get it from all sides. I doubt the world would let them get away with that. As strong as Russia is, as soon as America joins in, it's over. And again, China probably won't stand with Russia.


In the nightmare scenario that came to mind Russia would attack with one nuclear device, while simultaneously warning that any retaliation would trigger a thousand fold response. Or that the continuation of sanctions would yield the same response. At that point we enter the MAD scenario and are checkmated.


----------



## FriedTofu (Sep 29, 2014)

DesolationRow said:


> This thread details precisely the game Putin is sagaciously playing with his allies in Beijing.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1497835894782382080
> ...


Why do white nationalists libertarian types like to think there is more layers to things to explain why something 'is not as it seem'? De-dollarization of bilateral trade between China and Russia is a measure to reduce the damage of Western sanctions. Ukraine's invasion is not part of some grand plan to change the petrodollar system. Nobody's going back to the gold standard. The alternative currency to the US dollar is the Euro so that would be a dumb plan to move way from Western sanctions. Also, why would Russia even want to put all their eggs in one basket with China who can flip on them just as easily?

India have to abstain from the vote because Russia is right next to them and has been their allies far longer than the West. It is such a liberal educated counter-culture Westernized view to interpret the decision making to say it was an FU to the West. India shares borders with Russia, Pakistan and China. Russia is the only nuclear armed friendly neighbor there. Of course they will attempt to be as neutral as possible in this situation.

Mate is a Russian stooge for attempting to paint Assad in a good light during the Syrian crisis. There is no way to keep Ukraine neutral in the eyes of Putin. Putin wanted Ukraine to never be allowed into NATO, and for NATO to not ever expand again. Why would Biden or NATO agree to that? Not being in NATO is why Ukraine is invaded now anyway! The Minsk accord was a joke that nobody took seriously. Europe, Ukraine or Russia kept doing their own thing and kept kicking the can down the road as long as no major conflict occur. The West isn't innocent here, but to ignore Russian arrogance being just as responsible for a failure to reach peaceful resolution is just being in denial. Notice how this guy kept harping on Ukraine being a US vessel state, a Russian propaganda talking point. :LOL


----------



## Seafort (Jun 5, 2014)

FriedTofu said:


> Why do white nationalists libertarian types like to think there is more layers to things to explain why something 'is not as it seem'? De-dollarization of bilateral trade between China and Russia is a measure to reduce the damage of Western sanctions. Ukraine's invasion is not part of some grand plan to change the petrodollar system. Nobody's going back to the gold standard. The alternative currency to the US dollar is the Euro so that would be a dumb plan to move way from Western sanctions. Also, why would Russia even want to put all their eggs in one basket with China who can flip on them just as easily?
> 
> India have to abstain from the vote because Russia is right next to them and has been their allies far longer than the West. It is such a liberal educated counter-culture Westernized view to interpret the decision making to say it was an FU to the West. India shares borders with Russia, Pakistan and China. Russia is the only nuclear armed friendly neighbor there. Of course they will attempt to be as neutral as possible in this situation.
> 
> Mate is a Russian stooge for attempting to paint Assad in a good light during the Syrian crisis. There is no way to keep Ukraine neutral in the eyes of Putin. Putin wanted Ukraine to never be allowed into NATO, and for NATO to not ever expand again. Why would Biden or NATO agree to that? Not being in NATO is why Ukraine is invaded now anyway! The Minsk accord was a joke that nobody took seriously. Europe, Ukraine or Russia kept doing their own thing and kept kicking the can down the road as long as no major conflict occur. The West isn't innocent here, but to ignore Russian arrogance being just as responsible for a failure to reach peaceful resolution is just being in denial. Notice how this guy kept harping on Ukraine being a US vessel state, a Russian propaganda talking point. :LOL


India in part likely demurred because Ukraine has supported Pakistan in the past, and more importantly Russia is a top consumer of one of India’s exports - fertilizer.

Russia likely finds themselves in an increasingly precarious position when it comes to China. The former’s population is in a steady decline, and they occupy land that used to be Chinese.


----------



## FriedTofu (Sep 29, 2014)

Mr. King Of Kings said:


> What Western mainstream media-outlet isn't considered a joke at this stage? The point is that people are losing trust in Western institutions because of this. The corruption and amount of dirty lies are now so visible, even a child can see it. And that brings me back to my point of the controlled demolition that's currently taking place in the West.
> 
> If there's no trust in anything whatsoever, everything crumbles. The liberal order is collapsing as we speak, because it looks like the global elite is done with the liberal order. It's of no use to them anymore. Covid showed us a glimpse of what could replace it.


Multiple ones if you are not suffering from brain rot and have some level of critical thinking. Did you not think people lied in the past or there were corruption in the 'glory days'?

Go read some epoch times or global times and tell me non-western media isn't worse. lol

Yeah the liberal order is under stress because of people like you who keep buying into stupid conspiracy theories. Will take a while before the world learns to cope with outrage merchants spreading lies faster than they can be corrected.



Seafort said:


> India in part likely demurred because Ukraine has supported Pakistan in the past, and more importantly Russia is a top consumer of one of India’s exports - fertilizer.
> 
> Russia likely finds themselves in an increasingly precarious position when it comes to China. The former’s population is in a steady decline, and they occupy land that used to be Chinese.


I think it is the other way around. India buys fertilizer from Russia. India also has a longer history of working relations with Russia than the West.

My tinfoil hat is still that Russia interfered with the 2016 US elections to dampen the US-China relationship to boost their own bilateral relationship with either country. Also killed off the TPP that would have alienated Russia even more from global trade.


----------



## Mr. King Of Kings (May 16, 2006)

FriedTofu said:


> Multiple ones if you are not suffering from brain rot and have some level of critical thinking. Did you not think people lied in the past or there were corruption in the 'glory days'?
> 
> Go read some epoch times or global times and tell me non-western media isn't worse. lol
> 
> Yeah the liberal order is under stress because of people like you who keep buying into stupid conspiracy theories. Will take a while before the world learns to cope with outrage merchants spreading lies faster than they can be corrected.


Strange reply, but oh well. Have a nice day I guess.


----------



## BruiserKC (Mar 14, 2010)

FriedTofu said:


> Why do white nationalists libertarian types like to think there is more layers to things to explain why something 'is not as it seem'? De-dollarization of bilateral trade between China and Russia is a measure to reduce the damage of Western sanctions. Ukraine's invasion is not part of some grand plan to change the petrodollar system. Nobody's going back to the gold standard. The alternative currency to the US dollar is the Euro so that would be a dumb plan to move way from Western sanctions. Also, why would Russia even want to put all their eggs in one basket with China who can flip on them just as easily?
> 
> India have to abstain from the vote because Russia is right next to them and has been their allies far longer than the West. It is such a liberal educated counter-culture Westernized view to interpret the decision making to say it was an FU to the West. India shares borders with Russia, Pakistan and China. Russia is the only nuclear armed friendly neighbor there. Of course they will attempt to be as neutral as possible in this situation.
> 
> Mate is a Russian stooge for attempting to paint Assad in a good light during the Syrian crisis. There is no way to keep Ukraine neutral in the eyes of Putin. Putin wanted Ukraine to never be allowed into NATO, and for NATO to not ever expand again. Why would Biden or NATO agree to that? Not being in NATO is why Ukraine is invaded now anyway! The Minsk accord was a joke that nobody took seriously. Europe, Ukraine or Russia kept doing their own thing and kept kicking the can down the road as long as no major conflict occur. The West isn't innocent here, but to ignore Russian arrogance being just as responsible for a failure to reach peaceful resolution is just being in denial. Notice how this guy kept harping on Ukraine being a US vessel state, a Russian propaganda talking point. :LOL





Seafort said:


> India in part likely demurred because Ukraine has supported Pakistan in the past, and more importantly Russia is a top consumer of one of India’s exports - fertilizer.
> 
> Russia likely finds themselves in an increasingly precarious position when it comes to China. The former’s population is in a steady decline, and they occupy land that used to be Chinese.


Patrick Chovanec has an excellent thread on Twitter. 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1497934475694682112
China is happy to help Russia to a point. Same with Iran. However, ultimately they won’t go “all in” because to do so will alienate them from the rest of the world. Ultimately, China will ditch them when they are no longer beneficial.

And it’s getting dicier for Russia in looking at Monday.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1497999692562587650

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1497937049890009092
And the peace talks might be a cover for the Russians to regroup.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1497961609502859265
But the Ukrainians are not giving up.


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## Lady Eastwood (Jul 10, 2006)

The people of Russia are incredibly brave to take to the streets. They outnumber the government, would be amazing if they decided to raid that asshole’s “safe space”. Some lives would be lost, but, can’t kill everyone before they rip his head off. Would be a difficult task.

If Russia really cared about talking and bringing peace, they wouldn’t give a shit where the talks took place. The fact they were offered like 5 locations and still picked a pro Russian destination tells you all you need to know. I hope the talks go well, put an end to this senseless war, and get that fucking war criminal cuz he just ruined the rest of his life.


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## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

Hangman destroys Kane in the name of what’s good


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1498036441754046471


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## GTL2 (Sep 1, 2016)

This is not going well for Putin. He has lost his image of total-bastard-but-clever-strongman leader and now is looking increasingly lunatic. The invasion was expected to be a walkover but that has not happened and looks kind of chaotic. Other countries are becoming increasingly unified in their response. He is coming under more pressure at home than many expected. China is playing an entirely calculating game and could walk the other way at any moment.

Kind of a tipping point now. Either he doubles down and escalates the war or it's going to be a barely face-saving peace deal


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## BruiserKC (Mar 14, 2010)

LifeInCattleClass said:


> Hangman destroys Kane in the name of what’s good
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1498036441754046471




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1498053734571692042


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## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

I’m sorry - but this is fucking metal as hell


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1498053625813286929


JeSeGaN said:


> How does he destroy Kane?
> 
> He is right. Might makes right, like it or not.


‘Might makes right‘ is a silly premise

you can be the strongest person in the world, and if you work for me, i can still give you a paycut and you can only cry about it

There is a lot of ways where ‘might makes right’ does not apply.

hell - even now - Russia is supposed to have won already based on might - in the end ‘logistics makes right’ it seems is the real answer


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## JeSeGaN (Jun 5, 2018)

LifeInCattleClass said:


> Hangman destroys Kane in the name of what’s good


How does he destroy Kane?

He is right. Might makes right, like it or not.


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## BruiserKC (Mar 14, 2010)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1498051049831251980

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1497983740647198720

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1497949759553822725
I follow the market religiously. I have a good amount of investments. Some folks on Twitter have said they stayed up at night until morning in Ukraine to make sure Kyiv is still standing. I may have to get up at about 1 AM my time (10 AM Moscow time) to check the Moscow Exchange open. 😁


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## BrrrGoesWooo! (Mar 29, 2021)

JeSeGaN said:


> How does he destroy Kane?
> 
> He is right. Might makes right, like it or not.


I dunno, a far greater statesman Abraham Lincoln thought that sometimes "right makes might"

"Neither let us be slandered from our duty by false accusations against us, nor frightened from it by menaces of destruction to the Government nor of dungeons to ourselves. Let us have faith that right makes might, and in that faith, let us, to the end, dare to do our duty as we understand it. "

But yeah Kane is the height of political thought 

You're seeing "right makes might" unfold right now. Without putting boots on the ground the free world has Ukraine's back on this one, and the Ukrainian people are unified in justified struggle against a mighty enemy. This unity gives them strength and all the _might_ of the Russian military has them looking pretty _wrong,_ right about now.

Their economy is gonna get shit kicked by the rest of the planet in a couple hours, and this all possibly ends up with Putin being dragged out of office, unless he makes the _right_ decision and backs his ass off the precipice.


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## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

Seems true - i can’t access it


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1498067570775126020


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## BrrrGoesWooo! (Mar 29, 2021)

LifeInCattleClass said:


> Seems true - i can’t access it
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1498067570775126020


They've been doing DDoS attacks for a couple days now. Apparently they also released 200 gigs of emails from a Belarussian arms manufacturer that has been providing support for the Russians.


----------



## DUSTY 74 (Aug 11, 2021)




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## KNSFFA (11 mo ago)

LifeInCattleClass said:


> Hangman destroys Kane in the name of what’s good


I hope that others like Mick Foley and Nixon Newell (Tegan Nox) no longer think Glen Jacobs is a wonderful person. Between this and his poor takes on co-vid I dare say he sounds like a Putin toxic masculinity bot.


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## FriedTofu (Sep 29, 2014)

I challenge the 'conclusion' that this invasion is some Russian grand 4-D chess master plan these white nationalists in the west is trying so hard to make up to prop up their mythical leader of a anti-SJW government whose GDP per capita is in the dumps, wasting their technological advantages into become a de-facto petrostate now.

This invasion 

Gave China all the leverage in their deal to insulate from Western sanctions.
Pushed smaller European nations that wants to remain neutral towards joining NATO.
Gave Germany an excuse to re-militarize again with more military spending...and the world barely flinched.
Have Japan openly suggesting having US nukes on its soil as a deterrence against foreign threats.

The two most aggressive nations in WW2, that borders Russia is considering expanding their military. Yet this invasion is some 4D-chess move to wean off of the petroldollar? Give me a fking break. I mean if the plan is to spark WW3 to re-create a new world order, maybe that is 4-D chess I guess.


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## BruiserKC (Mar 14, 2010)

FriedTofu said:


> I challenge the 'conclusion' that this invasion is some Russian grand 4-D chess master plan these white nationalists in the west is trying so hard to make up to prop up their mythical leader of a anti-SJW government whose GDP per capita is in the dumps, wasting their technological advantages into become a de-facto petrostate now.
> 
> This invasion
> 
> ...


And NO ONE had this on their 2022 Bingo card.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1498019477727764481

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1498028131818561544


----------



## BrrrGoesWooo! (Mar 29, 2021)

FriedTofu said:


> I challenge the 'conclusion' that this invasion is some Russian grand 4-D chess master plan these white nationalists in the west is trying so hard to make up to prop up their mythical leader of a anti-SJW government whose GDP per capita is in the dumps, wasting their technological advantages into become a de-facto petrostate now.
> 
> This invasion
> 
> ...


_*What Putin thinks he looks like playing chess --










What the rest of the world sees --








*_


----------



## FriedTofu (Sep 29, 2014)

BruiserKC said:


> And NO ONE had this on their 2022 Bingo card.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1498019477727764481
> ...


Watch these nimrods spin this into "cancel culture!" culture war talking point. lol


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## KNSFFA (11 mo ago)

FriedTofu said:


> Watch these nimrods spin this into "cancel culture!" culture war talking point. lol


Exactly what Putin has wanted. For years he's via social media troll farms given a boost to people who scream stuff like cancel culture and try to politic things that should just be about human decency. Now he's struck and instead of everyone being against him, he's got a portion siding with him. Fortunately I think or least hope most the world is against him.


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## FriedTofu (Sep 29, 2014)

KNSFFA said:


> Exactly what Putin has wanted. For years he's via social media troll farms given a boost to people who scream stuff like cancel culture and try to politic things that should just be about human decency. Now he's struck and instead of everyone being against him, he's got a portion siding with him. Fortunately I think or least hope most the world is against him.


Nah. Don't let these idiots off the hook by excusing their idiocy on troll farms.


----------



## KNSFFA (11 mo ago)

FriedTofu said:


> Nah. Don't let these idiots off the hook by excusing their idiocy on troll farms.


Not letting them off by any means. The idiots were idiots before troll farms and will be long after. Just pointing out that Putin has contributed to all the divide in a way that benefited him and may have made it worse. Putin feeds Trump who feeds 'the uneducated' who are fed more by Bannon, Fox News, Alex Jones and the like. A human centipede of garbage feeding garbage.


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## RealDealNow (May 21, 2021)

Belarus are officially in on the war now.

As of yesterday, Old mate Vlad has been suspended as the honorary president of the International Judo Federation.


----------



## Lady Eastwood (Jul 10, 2006)

A fellow Ukrainian, yaaaaaa


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## Seafort (Jun 5, 2014)

BrrrGoesWooo! said:


> I dunno, a far greater statesman Abraham Lincoln thought that sometimes "right makes might"
> 
> "Neither let us be slandered from our duty by false accusations against us, nor frightened from it by menaces of destruction to the Government nor of dungeons to ourselves. Let us have faith that right makes might, and in that faith, let us, to the end, dare to do our duty as we understand it. "
> 
> ...


I worry that he might escalate, that he might view even economic sanctions the same as direct military involvement by NATO. He’s threatening nuclear weapons, which is unbelievable.


----------



## BrrrGoesWooo! (Mar 29, 2021)

Seafort said:


> I worry that he might escalate, that he might view even economic sanctions the same as direct military involvement by NATO. He’s threatening nuclear weapons, which is unbelievable.


He can't just turn a key and press a button, there's a whole process to launching a nuclear strike like that. If he's cracking up, there's a lot of people around him that will just take away the keys.


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## KNSFFA (11 mo ago)

BrrrGoesWooo! said:


> He can't just turn a key and press a button, there's a whole process to launching a nuclear strike like that. If he's cracking up, there's a lot of people around him that will just take away the keys.


Hopefully they already took away the keys and he's too cracked to notice.


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## DesolationRow (Oct 11, 2009)

The invasion of Ukraine, which is a depressing event, and not one to be celebrated, is naturally not at its core about the petrodollar, but of course Putin, who, whatever one thinks of him, has displayed considerable patience with U.S./Western/NATO expansionism at the expense of Russia's once-ever-shrinking sphere of influence, knew that a massive international backlash was in the works. Putin's two visits to Tehran, Iran in the last fifteen years, for instance, have been ninety percent about he Moscow-Tehran-Beijing axis doing everything in their power to weaken the petrodollar. The point is not that the invasion is some "false flag" or whatever Alex Jones or someone of that ilk might say; it is that it serves multiple purposes, however unmistakably fraught with danger it is (so fraught that it was indeed viewed as unlikely given Putin's conservative impulses). 

The paramount concern for Moscow is the Volgograd Gap, and all sides have been aware of that for decades. The stretch of land between the Black Sea and Caspian Sea is quintessential to Russia's existence as any sort of power whatsoever. Obviously Putin felt he had to act given the tightening of screws against his country under Obama, Trump, and Biden. 

Not surprising:

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1497982434801074184


----------



## FriedTofu (Sep 29, 2014)

Maybe stop trying to be a dick to your neighbors so they don't feel the need to run to NATO for protection? White nationalists still propping up their authoritarian idol after this gambit is just pathetic.


----------



## Roman Bellic (Nov 6, 2021)

This is the man who said you will own nothing and be happy ! Klaus Schwab !

He is your Enemy ! look at him, friends with all your friends, isn't that great !?



> Professor Klaus Schwab was born in Ravensburg, Germany in 1938


Oh so his a former Nazi too !? Brilliant ! Fantastic ! No way his a bad guy ! I can sleep easy tonight !

This is not good guys, Klaus Schwab is the mastermind behind the great reset ! We are in BIG trouble ! Don't say I didn't warn you ! and stop watching ALL mainstream media, it's junk food for the mind !!!!


----------



## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

My friends in Ukraine are saying they upped the soldiers salaries to 4000 USD

now all Ukranians are even more grabbing guns - they are positive at the moment

both my friends are and have been fighting


----------



## JeSeGaN (Jun 5, 2018)

BrrrGoesWooo! said:


> there's a lot of people around him that will just take away the keys.


I really doubt that...

But if he fires just one missile (doesn't matter against whom), it's over for Russia. Economically, in any case.


----------



## FriedTofu (Sep 29, 2014)

LifeInCattleClass said:


> My friends in Ukraine are saying they upped the soldiers salaries to 4000 USD
> 
> now all Ukranians are even more grabbing guns - they are positive at the moment
> 
> both my friends are and have been fighting


Hope peace can be brokered before they get involved in heavy fighting.


----------



## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

FriedTofu said:


> Hope peace can be brokered before they get involved in heavy fighting.


the one has been involved in the centre of kiev - he’s seen quite a bit of fighting

but he just messaged me that it is a beautiful day and he is now going to go buy some wine


----------



## FriedTofu (Sep 29, 2014)

LifeInCattleClass said:


> the one has been involved in the centre of kiev - he’s seen quite a bit of fighting
> 
> but he just messaged me that it is a beautiful day and he is now going to go buy some wine


fking madlad.


----------



## thatonewwefanguy (Feb 6, 2020)

BruiserKC said:


> MAGA broke him. Might be the bleach Dear Leader told him to drink.


not that much into politics, thats for stupid people with nothing else better going on in life than politics
maga, i have no comment cause its for stupid people who dont let go from the past


----------



## wrasslin_casual (May 28, 2020)

IpostHIGH said:


> Putin basically going to nuke anyone who interferes in his expansion.
> 
> What about if he loses?
> 
> ...


The only country which has ever used nuclear weapons in an actual war is the United States. It is also the most outwardly violent nation, possibly in history, invaded and or placed it's soldiers and weapons everywhere it possibly can on this planet and has currently surrounded Russia with nuclear weapons and it's Putin you're worried about?


----------



## CamillePunk (Feb 10, 2011)

Damn, Ukraine is doing so well that they are now releasing convinced criminals to repel the Russians!


----------



## CamillePunk (Feb 10, 2011)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1498296112238764037


----------



## thatonewwefanguy (Feb 6, 2020)

CamillePunk said:


> convinced


you meen convicted?
they are convincing convicted individuals to go to war?


----------



## CamillePunk (Feb 10, 2011)

thatonewwefanguy said:


> you meen convicted?
> they are convincing convicted individuals to go to war?


That was a typo. They are releasing convicted criminals to fight because the situation is so desperate. The sooner the situation is peacefully resolved the better. Western intervention is, as usual, only causing more deaths and prolonging the conflict


----------



## thatonewwefanguy (Feb 6, 2020)

CamillePunk said:


> That was a typo


tis what i figured, just wanted to make sure you noticed


CamillePunk said:


> Western intervention is, as usual, only causing more deaths and prolonging the conflict


that i know of, we(the USA) havent really gotten involved


----------



## wrasslin_casual (May 28, 2020)

thatonewwefanguy said:


> tis what i figured, just wanted to make sure you noticed
> 
> that i know of, we(the USA) havent really gotten involved


Tagging this as quote of the year "that i know of, we(the USA) havent really gotten involved" 

Great laugh that boyo!


----------



## thatonewwefanguy (Feb 6, 2020)

wrasslin_casual said:


> Great laugh that boyo!


i did say, that i was aware of, not certain if we have or not though


----------



## wrasslin_casual (May 28, 2020)

thatonewwefanguy said:


> i did say, that i was aware of, not certain if we have or not though


How can you not be aware of things which have been happening for decades? Unless ofc you are a child which means I take back my sarcasm.


----------



## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

wrasslin_casual said:


> How can you not be aware of things which have been happening for decades? Unless ofc you are a child which means I take back my sarcasm.


he’s 15 - cut the kid some slack


----------



## wrasslin_casual (May 28, 2020)

LifeInCattleClass said:


> he’s 15 - cut the kid some slack


Well as I posted, I have no idea. It's also important for people not to post if they do not know something.


----------



## thatonewwefanguy (Feb 6, 2020)

wrasslin_casual said:


> How can you not be aware of things which have been happening for decades? Unless ofc you are a child which means I take back my sarcasm.


i havent even been alive for 2 decades, if that gives you a hint


----------



## wrasslin_casual (May 28, 2020)

thatonewwefanguy said:


> i havent even been alive for 2 decades, if that gives you a hint


Thats good boyo! As I said, I have no idea of knowing. But just a tip in seriousness, no point in getting involved in a discussion without at least knowing the basic facts.


----------



## thatonewwefanguy (Feb 6, 2020)

wrasslin_casual said:


> Thats good boyo! As I said, I have no idea of knowing. But just a tip in seriousness, no point in getting involved in a discussion without at least knowing the basic facts.


i do know that there is a war going on, basic fact #1


----------



## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

thatonewwefanguy said:


> i do know that there is a war going on, basic fact #1


lol - dang, that’s true

the most important fact


----------



## Buffy The Vampire Slayer (May 31, 2011)

Now there are nearly 6,000 protestors detained across Russia. I fear that something bad is about to happen to them.


----------



## KNSFFA (11 mo ago)

Buffy The Vampire Slayer said:


> Now there are nearly 6,000 protestors detained across Russia. I fear that something bad is about to happen to them.


Just saw an alert on my phone about that and got a sick feeling in my stomach.


----------



## Brittburgh (Oct 24, 2021)

I can see old ways and certain lists making a comeback in Russia 
Back to the days of Beria and Stalin


----------



## KNSFFA (11 mo ago)

US officials fear worst is yet to come. Classified meeting regarding timeline cities could fall. More residential areas attacked. 3 children burnt alive in a car. Concerns Putin has lost his mind and not thinking clearly (that was obvious before any of this). There were 'talks' earlier today which seem to have done nothing unless those in them are trying to figure a way to take Putin out and end this.


----------



## IpostHIGH (Feb 5, 2017)

wrasslin_casual said:


> The only country which has ever used nuclear weapons in an actual war is the United States. It is also the most outwardly violent nation, possibly in history, invaded and or placed it's soldiers and weapons everywhere it possibly can on this planet and has currently surrounded Russia with nuclear weapons and it's Putin you're worried about?


Well, while the US was buidilng gender neutral toilets, Russia has been building hyper-sonic missiles, so yeah.


----------



## Mainboy (Jan 30, 2012)

One or two people I know are worried/concered if Putin does launch the Nuclear weapons.


----------



## FriedTofu (Sep 29, 2014)

KNSFFA said:


> US officials fear worst is yet to come. Classified meeting regarding timeline cities could fall. More residential areas attacked. 3 children burnt alive in a car. Concerns Putin has lost his mind and not thinking clearly (that was obvious before any of this). There were 'talks' earlier today which seem to have done nothing unless those in them are trying to figure a way to take Putin out and end this.


Syria but multiple times worse as this isn't just a proxy war between superpowers. One of them is directly involved.


----------



## BrrrGoesWooo! (Mar 29, 2021)

Buffy The Vampire Slayer said:


> Now there are nearly 6,000 protestors detained across Russia.





KNSFFA said:


> Just saw an alert on my phone about that and got a sick feeling in my stomach.


Nothing is going to happen to them other than them being locked up, none of them have any connections to Ukraine. Putin already has his back to the wall, he's not going to start trying to fuck on his own people unless he wants a popular revolution. 



IpostHIGH said:


> Well, while the US was buidilng gender neutral toilets, Russia has been building hyper-sonic missiles, so yeah.


Oh stfu, America can do more than two things at once. 700 billion dollars on weapons, doesn't mean that a locality can't use money to build a fucking toilet you dipshit. 

Go chew on some crayons.



Mainboy said:


> One or two people I know are worried/concered if Putin does launch the Nuclear weapons.


It's not happening. 

Dropping a first strike nuclear attack like that means passing through several other stages, that other people have control of. There isn't just some big red button he can smack when he feels like it. 

If he's actually lost his mind, they're gonna take away those keys. 

He fired the head of the military this morning. Dudes snapping, but there are too many hands on this wheel to let him blow up the entire world for some dumb shit like reclaiming the USSR, when everyone else knows that this would all be over if he was dead. 

Someone's gonna dome this fool before it gets to that point guaranteed. 

That's probably why he's acting so crazy. These sanctions have him in bad favor with a lot of bad people that CAN AND WILL kill his ass at any moment.



FriedTofu said:


> Syria but multiple times worse as this isn't just a proxy war between superpowers. One of them is directly involved.


Syria but they lost more troops and mech in the first two days than in 4 years in that country.

They've lost more than America lost in 8 years with 2004 Iraq over the course of a weekend. Not monetarily obviously because that shit was outrageously expensive, but fuck me they might give it a run if they keep it going with these sanctions.


----------



## FriedTofu (Sep 29, 2014)

BrrrGoesWooo! said:


> Syria but they lost more troops and mech in the first two days than in 4 years in that country.
> 
> They've lost more than America lost in 8 years with 2004 Iraq over the course of a weekend. Not monetarily obviously because that shit was outrageously expensive, but fuck me they might give it a run if they keep it going with these sanctions.


Yeah but Russia seemed to have sent their conscripts in first this time thinking it will be an easy win compared the use of professionals in the other conflicts. When this escalate and the better trained soldiers are in charge, it is going to be really bad. The attack on Kyiv is going to be ugly within the next 24hours.


----------



## wrasslin_casual (May 28, 2020)

.


IpostHIGH said:


> Well, while the US was buidilng gender neutral toilets, Russia has been building hyper-sonic missiles, so yeah.


Wow...the idiots truly are out in force. MAGA!


----------



## thatonewwefanguy (Feb 6, 2020)

wrasslin_casual said:


> the idiots truly are out in force


is it not like that everyday?


----------



## WrestleFAQ (May 26, 2020)

What's this I hear of the president of Ukraine, Volodymyr Zelenskyy, being illegally installed by globalists in essentially a coup back in 2014?


----------



## FriedTofu (Sep 29, 2014)

Why the Chinese Internet Is Cheering Russia’s Invasion


As the world overwhelmingly condemns the assault on Ukraine, online opinion in China is mostly pro-Russia, pro-war and pro-Putin.




www.nytimes.com






__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1498214498473508868


----------



## CowboyKurtAngle (Jul 18, 2014)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1498590113076756484


----------



## Outlaw91 (Mar 31, 2011)

WrestleFAQ said:


> What's this I hear of the president of Ukraine, Volodymyr Zelenskyy, being illegally installed by globalists in essentially a coup back in 2014?


----------



## wrasslin_casual (May 28, 2020)

WrestleFAQ said:


> What's this I hear of the president of Ukraine, Volodymyr Zelenskyy, being illegally installed by globalists in essentially a coup back in 2014?


Well leaked audio showed that the US was directly involved in overthrowing the UKrainian government in 2014 as it was deemed to be too pro Russian. This comedian was then installed as leader and parliamentary elections took place AFTER his inauguration 🤣😂😅

You honestly can not make this stuff up!


----------



## Art Vandaley (Jan 9, 2006)

Considering Zelensky didn't get into power until the 2019 election, and was staring in films in 2017, including doing the voice for paddington bear in the Polish dub, him being installed by a us coup in 2014 is pretty impressive.


----------



## WrestleFAQ (May 26, 2020)

So, the U.S. *did* help engage in a coup of the Ukrainian government in 2014, but the current globalist circus clown acting as their president wasn't installed until 2019. Got it.


----------



## Lady Eastwood (Jul 10, 2006)




----------



## CamillePunk (Feb 10, 2011)

To be fair the US doesn't really have a leg to stand on accusing other countries of war crimes.


----------



## CamillePunk (Feb 10, 2011)

wrasslin_casual said:


> Well leaked audio showed that the US was directly involved in overthrowing the UKrainian government in 2014 as it was deemed to be too pro Russian. This comedian was then installed as leader and parliamentary elections took place AFTER his inauguration 🤣😂😅
> 
> You honestly can not make this stuff up!


It's amazing what Americans will expect other countries to tolerate that their own never would in a million years, isn't it?


----------



## WrestleFAQ (May 26, 2020)

The 'journalist' who cried during Boris Johnson's press conference has been exposed as a shill linked to the World Economic Forum -- the same globalist organization which spent the entirety of COVID calling for a Great Reset.









The 'Crying Journalist' Demanding Boris Drags Britain to War is a Biden-Linked World Economic Forum Global Leader.


On Tuesday morning, “journalist” Daria Kaleniuk confronted British Prime Minister Boris Johnson, demanding NATO enters the war in Ukraine, despite massive public objections to Western nations becoming involved. Kaleniuk, however, is scarcely the “journalist” Western media outlets are portraying...




thenationalpulse.com





Geez . . . I'm starting to think there's more to this then the 'Ukraine good, Russia bad' angle Western media and corporations have been pushing on us.


----------



## Outlaw91 (Mar 31, 2011)

WrestleFAQ said:


> So, the U.S. *did* help engage in a coup of the Ukrainian government in 2014, but the current globalist circus clown acting as their president wasn't installed until 2019. Got it.


All in the name of Democracy! 
In my country they also "helped" then current President to obtain a new run because he and the general prosecutor (named by the President) covered some CIA illegal prison scandal. 
Biden and his son were very involved in some Eastern European countries, especially Ukraine and Romania. They also got very rich because the fight for Democracy always pays well.


----------



## thatonewwefanguy (Feb 6, 2020)

Outlaw91 said:


> All in the name of Democracy!
> In my country they also "helped" then current President to obtain a new run because he and the general prosecutor (named by the President) covered some CIA illegal prison scandal.
> Biden and his son were very involved in some Eastern European countries, especially Ukraine and Romania. They also got very rich because the fight for Democracy always pays well.


money is money but if i have to become a democrat, i'd rather live under a bridge than become a democrat, or involved in any sort of politics


----------



## Outlaw91 (Mar 31, 2011)

thatonewwefanguy said:


> money is money but if i have to become a democrat, i'd rather live under a bridge than become a democrat, or involved in any sort of politics


You mean Democrats or Republicans, right? Because in the European countries there isn't the same structure like in USA. 
What I meant is that these fucking hypocrites don't really give a shit who runs a country or if the ones doing it are there because the people chose it this way. They only want to make more and more money. The fight for Democracy and other things like that are just pretexts to get it their way.


----------



## Brittburgh (Oct 24, 2021)

Russia-Ukraine war latest: UN general assembly votes overwhelmingly to deplore invasion – live


----------



## BruiserKC (Mar 14, 2010)

It’s not going well for Putin. Reports are the giant convoy headed for Kyiv has stalled due to lack of fuel and food for the soldiers. He’s ready to crack down on his own citizens. 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1499144568335437827
Russian fighters have invaded Swedish airspace. This could make sense as Sweden and Finland aren’t NATO members.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1499051909390520323
He was right. His thread is worth reading.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1499088993736138754
And the options aren’t the best.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1499123362295070720
However, we are reaching a point where we need to act. Do I want war? No. But if we don’t stop him now we give him a chance to correct the mistakes. He will not stop with Ukraine if he knows he can get away with it. I would start with a no fly zone over Ukraine and go from there.


----------



## CowboyKurtAngle (Jul 18, 2014)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1499137243201499139


----------



## Art Vandaley (Jan 9, 2006)

WrestleFAQ said:


> So, the U.S. *did* help engage in a coup of the Ukrainian government in 2014, but the current globalist circus clown acting as their president wasn't installed until 2019. Got it.


The Ukrainian President from 2014 to 2019 was madly pro russian lol.

I note @CamillePunk liked your post lol, you just love being wrong don't you Camille? You've reached Qanon level with this stuff.


----------



## CowboyKurtAngle (Jul 18, 2014)

Russian fighters go into others airspace all the time


----------



## RealDealNow (May 21, 2021)

Damn, $400K for a fully functional tank? That's a friggin bargain!


----------



## KNSFFA (11 mo ago)

CowboyKurtAngle said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1499137243201499139


Assuming that is legit... the hell with selling it, farmer should be using it for the defense cause.


----------



## RealDealNow (May 21, 2021)

Might be worth checking the facebook buy, swap & sell to see if there are any tank shells for sale floating around.


----------



## AthleticGirth (Jul 25, 2020)

BrrrGoesWooo! said:


> Eh.. Because there is a large enough actual military presence in the ethnic Russian areas (and they're being brought in by the Russian military,) they're going to push them forward into contested Ukrainian territories to cause as much chaos as they can to soften things up.


Putin wouldn't let ethnic kinship get in his way of terrorising civilians to aid his conquest. We've just seen that with Kharkiv. A London Times journalist is based in a place called Sievierodonetsk, situated in one of the two Oblasts Putin's trying to annex, 40% ethnic Russian and they still faced shelling early on. There's Russian diaspora allover central and western Ukraine and from what I can make out the majority oppose the invasion.

The BBC and Reuters are reporting incidents of Russian soldiers looting. The BBC described them as looking for 'war booty'. Bizarrely Putin seems to be copying the Napoleonic army's tactic of sustaining itself through foraging.


----------



## FriedTofu (Sep 29, 2014)

RealDealNow said:


> Damn, $400K for a fully functional tank? That's a friggin bargain!


Good luck with shipping though.


----------



## GothicBohemian (May 26, 2012)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1499067632749797385Police in St. Petersburg detaining Yelena Osipova, a famous survivor of the Siege of Leningrad, at an anti-war protest. Russia will be enacting martial law soon, so that should help with the dire threat from grannies and little kids, who they've also been arresting at demonstrations. 

Meanwhile, in Ukraine ...

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1499059588779368449
But, unfortunately, also in Ukraine...

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1498912974773309440

World reactions to the Russian invasion of Ukraine. This is French but, ya know, translate options exist.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1497521420070490115What the map shows:
green - condemnation with retaliation, like sanctions, sending money/supplies/weapons, etc
blue - condemnation without retaliation
pink - no explicit condemnation
red - explicit support
grey - no comment as of yet 

The President of Ukraine has some UN votes to tell you about:

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1499072011729096705


CowboyKurtAngle said:


> Russian fighters go into others airspace all the time


Under the circumstances, they have no business being in Sweden's airspace. That is a not-at-all veiled threat.


----------



## RealDealNow (May 21, 2021)

GothicBohemian said:


> World reactions to the Russian invasion of Ukraine. This is French but, ya know, translate options exist.
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1497521420070490115What the map shows:
> green - condemnation with retaliation, like sanctions, sending money/supplies/weapons, etc
> ...


Yeah, this map accurately reflects the attitudes of NATO members compared to BRICS.

Edit: Surprised to see South Africa imposing sanctions on Russia though.


----------



## PhenomenalOne11 (Oct 2, 2016)

Fuck Russia and fuck Ukraine corrupt ass fucking countries, neither deserves any sympathy. Hope they tear each other apart.


Edit: Since I have to clarify, neither government deserves sympathy, the civilians however do.


----------



## Art Vandaley (Jan 9, 2006)

PhenomenalOne11 said:


> Fuck Russia and fuck Ukraine corrupt ass fucking countries, neither deserves any sympathy. Hope they tear each other apart.


Wtf? What has Ukraine done other than exist and be invaded? On what planet is that not deserving of sympathy?


----------



## RealDealNow (May 21, 2021)

PhenomenalOne11 said:


> Fuck Russia and fuck Ukraine corrupt ass fucking countries, neither deserves any sympathy. Hope they tear each other apart.


This is a hot take.


----------



## Art Vandaley (Jan 9, 2006)

RealDealNow said:


> This is a hot take.


I know right, a dictatorship randomly invading a democracy.....

Its like if China invaded Australia lol

Imagine not being able to pick a side in situation like that?


----------



## KNSFFA (11 mo ago)

PhenomenalOne11 said:


> Fuck Russia and fuck Ukraine corrupt ass fucking countries, neither deserves any sympathy. Hope they tear each other apart.


Ukraine deserves to be terrorized apart? Really?


----------



## RealDealNow (May 21, 2021)

Alkomesh2 said:


> I know right, a dictatorship randomly invading a democracy.....
> 
> Its like if China invaded Australia lol
> 
> Imagine not being able to pick a side in situation like that?


Not only that but outright saying that that no-one deserves any sympathy in this whole ordeal is just... cold man. Good to know that old mate @PhenomenalOne11 is a massive xenophobe lol.


----------



## PhenomenalOne11 (Oct 2, 2016)

KNSFFA said:


> Ukraine deserves to be terrorized? Really?


The civilians don't deserve anything but both these country's governments are corrupt as hell and I don't stand with either.



RealDealNow said:


> Not only that but outright saying that that no-one deserves any sympathy in this whole ordeal is just... cold man. Good to know that old mate @PhenomenalOne11 is a massive xenophobe lol.


Xenophobe, how so?


----------



## RealDealNow (May 21, 2021)

PhenomenalOne11 said:


> Xenophobe, how so?


The lack of comprehension here is fucking staggering.


----------



## PhenomenalOne11 (Oct 2, 2016)

RealDealNow said:


> The lack of comprehension here is fucking staggering.


You're implying that I hate foreigners for no reason, which isn't true. I hate the governments. I went and clarified that.


----------



## PhenomenalOne11 (Oct 2, 2016)

Alkomesh2 said:


> Wtf? What has Ukraine done other than exist and be invaded? On what planet is that not deserving of sympathy?


Went and clarified in my original post, I'm referring purely to the governments and not the innocent civilians. Should have made that clear in the first place, My mistake.


----------



## Lady Eastwood (Jul 10, 2006)

All governments are corrupt, so we should all just swing in to our neighboring countries and start blowing everything, and everyone, apart because of it? Jesus, give your head a fucking shake.


----------



## PhenomenalOne11 (Oct 2, 2016)

Catalanotto said:


> All governments are corrupt, so we should all just swing in to our neighboring countries and start blowing everything, and everyone, apart because of it? Jesus, give your head a fucking shake.


Absolutely not, never once said you should, all I'm saying is I don't stand with either. Russia is absolutely doing worse, but I don't necessarily stand with Ukraine because of it.

I worded it terribly, that's on me.


----------



## FriedTofu (Sep 29, 2014)

I'm rooting for the Emus to rise up again just for this hot take.


----------



## FriedTofu (Sep 29, 2014)

Fox News really did it. They really went for the cancel culture nonsense in their coverage of this. lol


----------



## wrasslin_casual (May 28, 2020)

CamillePunk said:


> It's amazing what Americans will expect other countries to tolerate that their own never would in a million years, isn't it?


Americans, Brits, the EU....we're all the same. A bunch of brainwashed, racist, bigoted fools.


----------



## THE_OD (Nov 21, 2016)

RealDealNow said:


> Damn, $400K for a fully functional tank? That's a friggin bargain!


I'm guessing shipping it wont be cheap though xD


----------



## Reservoir Angel (Aug 7, 2010)

I love Russia, as a nation. I love its history, I love its culture. I'm literally learning Russian.

But fuck what its insane dictator is pulling with this. I hope the sanctions cripple that fucking country and choke it out of the global community so badly that we get news footage of the Russian people dragging Putin kicking and screaming out of the Kremlin.

That country deserves so much better than the poverty and corruption it's forced to endure because of its corrupt as fuck oligarch autocracy government.


----------



## CowboyKurtAngle (Jul 18, 2014)

Wouldn't shock me, if someone takes him out from the inside


----------



## EvilDead (Apr 15, 2014)

Mr. Putin is a Stalin wannabee.

He is living in the past!

Mr. Putin tear down this wall!!!!


Stop the war! Tear down the wall!!!


----------



## Lady Eastwood (Jul 10, 2006)

A Russian businessman put a million dollar bounty on Putin’s head, dead or alive. It was only a matter of time before the rich people got pissed.


----------



## GothicBohemian (May 26, 2012)

*This is NOT as bad as it appears since the plant was in scheduled maintenance mode but since this event is spreading all over the internet atm I thought it should get mentioned.*

Clip of the shelling of Zaporizhzhia Nuclear Power Plant, the largest in Europe.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1499539832254652423
EDIT: there are tons of livecams all over the likes of YouTube but they aren't that exciting and the chats are, well, let's call them interesting. The plant also has its own official YouTube channel running a livecam with no chat or comments enabled.


----------



## FriedTofu (Sep 29, 2014)

So much propaganda from Ukraine and Russia flying around at the moment. Can't really tell the state of the war even with all the cameras in there.


----------



## DUSTY 74 (Aug 11, 2021)

Russia attacks Ukraine nuclear plant as invasion advances


KYIV, Ukraine (AP) — Russian forces shelled Europe’s largest nuclear plant early Friday, sparking a fire as they pressed their attack on a crucial energy-producing Ukrainian city and gained ground in their bid to cut off the country from the sea.




apnews.com


----------



## Lady Eastwood (Jul 10, 2006)

GothicBohemian said:


> *This is NOT as bad as it appears since the plant was in scheduled maintenance mode but since this event is spreading all over the internet atm I thought it should get mentioned.*
> 
> Clip of the shelling of Zaporizhzhia Nuclear Power Plant, the largest in Europe.
> 
> ...


Thank you for this. I saw it pop up on my phone and went in to panic mode. Glad to see this information.


----------



## BruiserKC (Mar 14, 2010)

THE_OD said:


> I'm guessing shipping it wont be cheap though xD


I’m going to have to fly with my mechanic to check it out first. I’m making sure it’s in good shape if I’m putting that much coin into buying it.


----------



## Chairshot620 (Mar 12, 2010)

Meow!!!









International Cat Federation bans Russian felines from competitions


Fédération Internationale Féline, which hosts over 700 cat shows a year, said it “cannot just witness these atrocities and do nothing.”




www.nbcnews.com






Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Outlaw91 (Mar 31, 2011)

CowboyKurtAngle said:


> Wouldn't shock me, if someone takes him out from the inside


Isn’t this the way they change the leader since USSR? Changing a bad dictator with another one who claims to be a good guy?


----------



## Outlaw91 (Mar 31, 2011)

Catalanotto said:


> A Russian businessman put a million dollar bounty on Putin’s head, dead or alive. It was only a matter of time before the rich people got pissed.


Yeah, Putin is bad for business. 
I guess he would have no problem with this if it didn't affect his money. They use the terrifying drama the ordinary people from Ukraine suffer as a pretext to change the dictator with one who can bring more money for them.


----------



## YamchaRocks (Dec 22, 2012)

I really hope the russian billionaires and key politicians/generals decide to replace Putin. Obviously the new leader wouldn't be any different, but it would save them further loss of money as well as paint them in more positive light to the west.

I'm really scared that when he reaches a point of no return and has nothing to lose, he will really start to use nukes.


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## Outlaw91 (Mar 31, 2011)

YamchaRocks said:


> Obviously the new leader wouldn't be any different, but it would save them further loss of money as well as paint them in more positive light to the west.


----------



## AthleticGirth (Jul 25, 2020)

Even if Putin is replaced the nukes won't be and the world will just be kicking the can down the road until the next Russian tyrant comes along to stir up similar fears and grievances about the West. They may not be unfounded, I have deep suspicions and worries about the EU and the direction it's heading also - this is a bloc that is vocal about wanting to break my country up and Brussels is playing a very dangerous game in Ulster. It's a bloc with a massive democratic deficit that is centralising and power grabbing at a rapid pace. 

The one immediate aim remains though, and we should be united on that, stop the invasion of Ukraine.


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## CowboyKurtAngle (Jul 18, 2014)

Outlaw91 said:


> Isn’t this the way they change the leader since USSR? Changing a bad dictator with another one who claims to be a good guy?


That's how the world works unfortunately.


----------



## CowboyKurtAngle (Jul 18, 2014)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1499812700997799938


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## BruiserKC (Mar 14, 2010)

AthleticGirth said:


> Even if Putin is replaced the nukes won't be and the world will just be kicking the can down the road until the next Russian tyrant comes along to stir up similar fears and grievances about the West. They may not be unfounded, I have deep suspicions and worries about the EU and the direction it's heading also - this is a bloc that is vocal about wanting to break my country up and Brussels is playing a very dangerous game in Ulster. It's a bloc with a massive democratic deficit that is centralising and power grabbing at a rapid pace.
> 
> The one immediate aim remains though, and we should be united on that, stop the invasion of Ukraine.


All options are not ideal. But the best option is a limited conflict with only one objective. And this is the time to act, before he gets that much stronger and braver. It’s time to look at a no fly zone and boots on the ground. With a limited goal of ejecting the Russians from Ukraine. 

For those who say that the threat of nuclear war is out there, it’s a far greatly reduced chance if Putin feels NATO and Ukraine are not going to overthrow him. Send them in to repel the Russians. Kill as many as possible.

Isolationism and appeasement don’t work.


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## CamillePunk (Feb 10, 2011)

BruiserKC said:


> All options are not ideal. But the best option is a limited conflict with only one objective. And this is the time to act, before he gets that much stronger and braver. It’s time to look at a no fly zone and boots on the ground. With a limited goal of ejecting the Russians from Ukraine.
> 
> For those who say that the threat of nuclear war is out there, it’s a far greatly reduced chance if Putin feels NATO and Ukraine are not going to overthrow him. Send them in to repel the Russians. Kill as many as possible.
> 
> Isolationism and appeasement don’t work.


Crazy old man! You are calling for the end of the world!


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## BruiserKC (Mar 14, 2010)

CamillePunk said:


> Crazy old man! You are calling for the end of the world!


Breaking news for you. Rolling over and giving Putin Ukraine will not satisfy him. Just like letting him have Chechnya, South Ossetia, and Crimea only inspired him to keep going. If we give him Ukraine, what happens when he goes into Finland? Sweden? Or the Baltics or Poland which are NATO allies and we will be obligated to come to their aid. Because he will. If he feels there are no consequences for his actions, he’s going to keep going. And the longer this goes on, the higher the price it will take to stop it.

That’s reality. And ignoring the problem doesn’t make it go away. In fact, ignoring it got us here.


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## CamillePunk (Feb 10, 2011)

BruiserKC said:


> Breaking news for you. Rolling over and giving Putin Ukraine will not satisfy him. Just like letting him have Chechnya, South Ossetia, and Crimea only inspired him to keep going. If we give him Ukraine, what happens when he goes into Finland? Sweden? Or the Baltics or Poland which are NATO allies and we will be obligated to come to their aid. Because he will. If he feels there are no consequences for his actions, he’s going to keep going. And the longer this goes on, the higher the price it will take to stop it.
> 
> That’s reality. And ignoring the problem doesn’t make it go away. In fact, ignoring it got us here.


If he attacks a NATO country then he will be initiating WW3 and MAD will begin. He knows this. What you are suggesting is that NATO be the one to kick off WW3 in defense of a NON-NATO state. Complete madness and stupidity. Why do old men seek to bring us all with them to the grave? Die with dignity!


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## DesolationRow (Oct 11, 2009)

Putin is apparently simultaneously losing the war in Ukraine and planning to militarily dominate the European continent unless NATO triggers a hot world war. It's a good thing all of the U.S.'s enemies are evil and insane--makes things simple. Attack! Not because we want war, but we have to!

The most significant development to date appears to be the Russians' taking of Energodar, and making significant progress toward fully encircling Kharkov.


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## BruiserKC (Mar 14, 2010)

CamillePunk said:


> If he attacks a NATO country then he will be initiating WW3 and MAD will begin. He knows this. What you are suggesting is that NATO be the one to kick off WW3 in defense of a NON-NATO state. Complete madness and stupidity. Why do old men seek to bring us all with them to the grave? Die with dignity!





DesolationRow said:


> Putin is apparently simultaneously losing the war in Ukraine and planning to militarily dominate the European continent unless NATO triggers a hot world war. It's a good thing all of the U.S.'s enemies are evil and insane--makes things simple. Attack! Not because we want war, but we have to!
> 
> The most significant development to date appears to be the Russians' taking of Energodar, and making significant progress toward fully encircling Kharkov.


World War III has pretty much started. 
The targeting of the nuclear power plant, by Russia, last night, makes clear that the Russians are very much focused on destroying basic infrastructure now -- power, water, etc. 
The refugee crisis they bring will be like nothing Europe has seen in decades. The human suffering will be terrible.

On a strategic level, it means Russia can then flatten cities completely. And they will.
The goal in doing so is to cause mass exodus of refugees. Potentially millions. A humanitarian crisis not seen in Europe since Bosnia.

We’ve tried to stay out of this as long as possible. But the way things are trending, it will not be long before the people of Eastern and Western NATO members demand we "do something." What form that action will take will depend on the situation on the ground. But the humanitarian disaster, with the mass destruction, and the growing existential threat to our Eastern European allies will become too great. And sending in arms will no longer be enough.

This is where we are. I don’t want war. But we are approaching the point of no return. We are better off dealing with it now then later. But we have to shut out the noise from the far left Code Pink pacifists and MAGA isolationists. 

"The world will not be destroyed by those who do evil, but by those who watch them without doing anything." ― Albert Einstein


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## FriedTofu (Sep 29, 2014)

Anything against Putin will spark WW3 or nuclear war. But anything Putin does is just fine. Funny how that works.


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## BruiserKC (Mar 14, 2010)

FriedTofu said:


> Anything against Putin will spark WW3 or nuclear war. But anything Putin does is just fine. Funny how that works.


Putin wants to return Russia to its Soviet prominence, when there was broad poverty and an isolated economy, but military expansion. Expecting him to capitulate because of broad poverty and an isolated economy alone is most likely a long shot.

I’m old enough to recall all of the stories of bread lines, shoe lines, and people making homemade vodka. Those were the Good Old Days for Vlad, where nationalism was the most important thing. That's what he wants now, and why sanctions alone are unlikely to work.

It's not that sanctions have no chance at success, but people need to stop looking at Russia as being just like America, the EU or the UK. It's not. Russia has a different history, and Putin is exploiting that.

The hope is the Russian people will rise up as they’ve had a taste of the life with western music and McDonald’s. They don’t like the war themselves and seeing stock values plummet shows sanctions are hitting the country hard. Or the military who refuses to let this go further.


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## CamillePunk (Feb 10, 2011)

FriedTofu said:


> Anything against Putin will spark WW3 or nuclear war. But anything Putin does is just fine. Funny how that works.


No, I literally just said above that if Putin attacks a NATO country, it'd be WW3. Learn how to read.



BruiserKC said:


> World War III has pretty much started.
> The targeting of the nuclear power plant, by Russia, last night, makes clear that the Russians are very much focused on destroying basic infrastructure now -- power, water, etc.
> The refugee crisis they bring will be like nothing Europe has seen in decades. The human suffering will be terrible.
> 
> ...


Take your meds dude


----------



## Mr. King Of Kings (May 16, 2006)

CamillePunk said:


> No, I literally just said above that if Putin attacks a NATO country, it'd be WW3. Learn how to read.


People might accuse you of undermining the liberal order and call you a Putin shill or a conspiracy nut if they don't understand where you're coming from or you don't fall in line completely. In times of chaos and confusion people will misunderstand or condemn you very quickly.

.


----------



## FriedTofu (Sep 29, 2014)

BruiserKC said:


> Putin wants to return Russia to its Soviet prominence, when there was broad poverty and an isolated economy, but military expansion. Expecting him to capitulate because of broad poverty and an isolated economy alone is most likely a long shot.
> 
> I’m old enough to recall all of the stories of bread lines, shoe lines, and people making homemade vodka. Those were the Good Old Days for Vlad, where nationalism was the most important thing. That's what he wants now, and why sanctions alone are unlikely to work.
> 
> ...


Agreed with Putin's long term goal to make Russia great again. He cannot stand that global decisions is now based around what the US and China and relegated into the third wheel. Maybe even the 4th wheel 2 decades from now looking at demographic trends of Africa. He is forcing the issue here before Russia slip even more into irrelevancy before the EU manage to get Ukraine into their trade bloc and do not need to rely on Russian gas as much.

Sanctions only work if the leaders care about the people. Putin seems to only want to project strength so he is more likely to choose poverty for everyone than admit he made a miscalculation of the degree of the sanctions slapped on Russia.



CamillePunk said:


> No, I literally just said above that if Putin attacks a NATO country, it'd be WW3. Learn how to read.


OK. Let me rephrase, anything Putin has done or is doing is just fine.

You like to play this trick of any reaction to the authoritarian you simp for is bad as it will escalate things, conveniently excusing the initial actions of Daddy strongman that started the whole mess or that Daddy strongman has escalated things throughout that sparked the call for more reactions. Bonus point of adding the caveat that Daddy strongman will be too smart to escalate things even though we reached this point because said Daddy strongman escalated things.


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## Seafort (Jun 5, 2014)

BruiserKC said:


> All options are not ideal. But the best option is a limited conflict with only one objective. And this is the time to act, before he gets that much stronger and braver. It’s time to look at a no fly zone and boots on the ground. With a limited goal of ejecting the Russians from Ukraine.
> 
> For those who say that the threat of nuclear war is out there, it’s a far greatly reduced chance if Putin feels NATO and Ukraine are not going to overthrow him. Send them in to repel the Russians. Kill as many as possible.
> 
> Isolationism and appeasement don’t work.


There were war games held in 2019 designed around a Russian invasion of Ukraine. A scenario had NATO employing a no fly zone over Litviv, which itself was considered escalatory. That eventually led to a Russian strike with tactical nuclear weapons and quickly evolved into a full scale nuclear war.

Horrible situation in Ukraine, but having grown up in the 80s it is alarming to see Russian leadership be casual about the use of nuclear weapons.



BruiserKC said:


> World War III has pretty much started.
> The targeting of the nuclear power plant, by Russia, last night, makes clear that the Russians are very much focused on destroying basic infrastructure now -- power, water, etc.
> The refugee crisis they bring will be like nothing Europe has seen in decades. The human suffering will be terrible.
> 
> ...


How do you deal with the situation that the invading country is backed by a very large nuclear arsenal, and publicly has appeared to express willingness to use it? Theater based ABM systems are limited, and are not designed to stop a full scale launch. Unless there is a technological solution that the general public is not aware of, it is extremely risky to get involved in direct combat with a major nuclear armed power.

That is also the threat of Putin. If he says that any military response whatsoever leads to nuclear retaliation, he puts himself in a position to do all sorts of terrible things. Estonia and Latvia are part of NATO. If Russia were to invade both, he could make the same threat there that he makes now. Would NATO risk coming to their aid? Where is the line drawn?

It’s a terrible situation and a humanitarian disaster that is unfolding.


----------



## Flairwhoo84123 (Jan 3, 2022)

Mr. King Of Kings said:


> People might accuse you of undermining the liberal order and call you a Putin shill or a conspiracy nut if they don't understand where you're coming from or you don't fall in line completely. In times of chaos and confusion people will misunderstand or condemn you very quickly.



Unless your willing to destroy the earth because some old people here, lived long enough of life, wants to have ww 3 over Ukraine, to teach those ruskies a lesson, your a Putin shill or a conspiracy theorist in some people eyes, remember destroy earth , sacrifice your toddlers and wives to save Ukraine since emotions are high.


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## FriedTofu (Sep 29, 2014)

A decent summary of events leading up to the ongoing invasion. But I don't share his conclusion that Putin will lose. He will unleash hell and drive away all dissenters and repopulate the country with loyalists pretty easily if it has to come to that. I don't think he shares the same humanitarian PR concerns as the West in putting down insurgency.

Also kinda of glaring how Putin's justification for invasion is parallel to the white Christian nationalist playbook in America. Swap out Russia/Putin with real Americans, Nazis with leftists, the west with globalists, Ukraine with modern USA and it sounds like the same thing.


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## BruiserKC (Mar 14, 2010)

CamillePunk said:


> Take your meds dude




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1500108343641354240
Hide under your bed. Let the adults handle this. Don’t answer the door, it might be BLM. 🤣




Mr. King Of Kings said:


> People might accuse you of undermining the liberal order and call you a Putin shill or a conspiracy nut if they don't understand where you're coming from or you don't fall in line completely. In times of chaos and confusion people will misunderstand or condemn you very quickly.


Or this…I see what’s going on through the psyop nonsense. What we are seeing is a tyrant who is having his way and we are wringing our hands and won’t do anything. And you make excuses for him. Ignoring this won’t make it go away as the rest of the world is seeing.

Here is a true freedom convoy, not pussies scared of a needle or mask.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1499993701761748996


Seafort said:


> There were war games held in 2019 designed around a Russian invasion of Ukraine. A scenario had NATO employing a no fly zone over Litviv, which itself was considered escalatory. That eventually led to a Russian strike with tactical nuclear weapons and quickly evolved into a full scale nuclear war.
> 
> Horrible situation in Ukraine, but having grown up in the 80s it is alarming to see Russian leadership be casual about the use of nuclear weapons.





Seafort said:


> How do you deal with the situation that the invading country is backed by a very large nuclear arsenal, and publicly has appeared to express willingness to use it? Theater based ABM systems are limited, and are not designed to stop a full scale launch. Unless there is a technological solution that the general public is not aware of, it is extremely risky to get involved in direct combat with a major nuclear armed power.
> 
> That is also the threat of Putin. If he says that any military response whatsoever leads to nuclear retaliation, he puts himself in a position to do all sorts of terrible things. Estonia and Latvia are part of NATO. If Russia were to invade both, he could make the same threat there that he makes now. Would NATO risk coming to their aid? Where is the line drawn?
> 
> It’s a terrible situation and a humanitarian disaster that is unfolding.


I heard about that wargame. That’s why we have to be careful on how to do this. Making clear what our intentions are as a start. Limiting our engagement is key. Making clear our involvement is solely for the intent of kicking the Russian army out of Ukraine. He’s far less likely to launch nukes if he knows we aren’t heading for Moscow.

But we are going to eventually reach the point action will probably have to be taken. You have to take a bully head on. I think it’s better now then later.





Flairwhoo84123 said:


> Unless your willing to destroy the earth because some old people here, lived long enough of life, wants to have ww 3 over Ukraine, to teach those ruskies a lesson, your a Putin shill or a conspiracy theorist in some people eyes, remember destroy earth , sacrifice your toddlers and wives to save Ukraine since emotions are high.


So if we do nothing, we’re cowards. If we act, we’re warmongers.

I prefer to take action rather then live under blackmail.


----------



## Flairwhoo84123 (Jan 3, 2022)

BruiserKC said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1500108343641354240
> Hide under your bed. Let the adults handle this. Don’t answer the door, it might be BLM. 🤣
> 
> 
> ...


So destroy life on earth to prove a point? Wtf are you off your meds


----------



## CamillePunk (Feb 10, 2011)

FriedTofu said:


> Agreed with Putin's long term goal to make Russia great again. He cannot stand that global decisions is now based around what the US and China and relegated into the third wheel. Maybe even the 4th wheel 2 decades from now looking at demographic trends of Africa. He is forcing the issue here before Russia slip even more into irrelevancy before the EU manage to get Ukraine into their trade bloc and do not need to rely on Russian gas as much.
> 
> Sanctions only work if the leaders care about the people. Putin seems to only want to project strength so he is more likely to choose poverty for everyone than admit he made a miscalculation of the degree of the sanctions slapped on Russia.
> 
> ...


First of all, Xi Jinping >>> Vladimir Putin.

I do not approve of invading Ukraine and starting brother wars between European nations (or any other wars mind you except in defense of one's self or allies). However, it is simply wrong to put all of the blame on one side. The West DID instigate a coup in a relatively pro Russia Ukraine and installed their own government. The West IS surrounding Russia with an explicitly anti-Russia alliance. We would not tolerate it, and expecting Russia to tolerate it is asinine.

Let me be clear, if Russia were to invade a NATO country, they would invite their own doom, and I would pray that every Russian nuke fails to launch. But, they have simply not done that.

The history between Ukraine and Russia is very complex and the narrative being told in Western media purposefully oversimplifies the issue to generate hatred of Russia, and sadly the Russian people who do not control what their military does, much as our people did not ask for a 20 year war in Afghanistan or the horrors our government has regularly visited upon Middle Eastern countries. This is not to mention how we have destabilized and interfered with the affairs of South American countries...

War propagandists belong in hell.



Flairwhoo84123 said:


> So destroy life on earth to prove a point? Wtf are you off your meds


Bruiser likes to say "I don't want war" shortly before advocating total war at every opportunity, nuclear apocalypse be damned. A senile fool.


----------



## Flairwhoo84123 (Jan 3, 2022)

CamillePunk said:


> Bruiser likes to say "I don't want war" shortly before advocating total war at every opportunity, nuclear apocalypse be damned. A senile fool.


Dont know if he snile, but it irrational point of view to have ww3 over a non-allied nation. Ukraine isnt in EU or NATO, the lines are, and should be drawn at NATO countries concerning Russian invasion , and Putin knows it, not saying his war in Ukraine is good, it a disaster , and proabably will economically isolate his country , and harm the Russian civilian population the same way Harsh sanctions harmed Cubans, Iranians, Iraqis (during the latter part of Saddam era), Syrians, that western nations impose on other countries that dont tow the line, however Putin to blame to extent for this disaster, even if Russia had legit bational security, and border concerns of NATO encroachment since the collapse if the Soviet Union.


----------



## FriedTofu (Sep 29, 2014)

CamillePunk said:


> First of all, Xi Jinping >>> Vladimir Putin.
> 
> I do not approve of invading Ukraine and starting brother wars between European nations (or any other wars mind you except in defense of one's self or allies). However, it is simply wrong to put all of the blame on one side. The West DID instigate a coup in a relatively pro Russia Ukraine and installed their own government. The West IS surrounding Russia with an explicitly anti-Russia alliance. We would not tolerate it, and expecting Russia to tolerate it is asinine.
> 
> ...


The coup was a result of a president going against the will of his government by switching from the plan to have friendlier ties with the EU towards a Russia-centric trade bloc. Blaming it on instigation by the West is simply ignoring the root of the resentment. Why is more trade with EU seen as surrounding Russia? If Russia wasn't being a dick to her neighbors, they should be happy to have more trade in the region.

Why would we need to go to complex history to find any narrative here? Ukraine is a sovereign nation that got invaded by a much more powerful regional power. After they willing gave up nukes in exchange for an assurance of security.

War apologists belong in hell.


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## BruiserKC (Mar 14, 2010)

Zelensky is on a Zoom meeting this morning with the Senate. He asks them not to post it on Social media. Senators Daines and Rubio post it on social media. They obviously want to get him killed. 



Flairwhoo84123 said:


> So destroy life on earth to prove a point? Wtf are you off your meds





CamillePunk said:


> First of all, Xi Jinping >>> Vladimir Putin.
> 
> I do not approve of invading Ukraine and starting brother wars between European nations (or any other wars mind you except in defense of one's self or allies). However, it is simply wrong to put all of the blame on one side. The West DID instigate a coup in a relatively pro Russia Ukraine and installed their own government. The West IS surrounding Russia with an explicitly anti-Russia alliance. We would not tolerate it, and expecting Russia to tolerate it is asinine.
> 
> ...





CamillePunk said:


> Bruiser likes to say "I don't want war" shortly before advocating total war at every opportunity, nuclear apocalypse be damned. A senile fool.





Flairwhoo84123 said:


> Dont know if he snile, but it irrational point of view to have ww3 over a non-allied nation. Ukraine isnt in EU or NATO, the lines are, and should be drawn at NATO countries concerning Russian invasion , and Putin knows it, not saying his war in Ukraine is good, it a disaster , and proabably will economically isolate his country , and harm the Russian civilian population the same way Harsh sanctions harmed Cubans, Iranians, Iraqis (during the latter part of Saddam era), Syrians, that western nations impose on other countries that dont tow the line, however Putin to blame to extent for this disaster, even if Russia had legit bational security, and border concerns of NATO encroachment since the collapse if the Soviet Union.


🤣🤣🤣🤣How hilarious that all we hear is “fight for freedom”! “We will do what it takes to fight for liberty!” Until you finally have a chance to put your money where your mouth is and suddenly we have all these excuses. Here’s how this will end up.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1500144571367538688
So forgive me if I don’t take your criticism seriously.

Putin started this war for the revival of the Soviet Empire. Period. He will not stop with Ukraine. He knows exactly what he is doing. As long as he knows he can get away with it, he will continue. Today he made clear that if this continues Ukraine will be stripped of their statehood, and sanctions are essentially a declaration of war.









Putin warns Ukraine might lose statehood


Russian President Vladimir Putin in a meeting on Saturday warned that Ukraine might lose its statehood “if they continue doing what they are doing,” The New York Times reported.“The current leaders…




thehill.com





So, this should basically drive the point home we are at war. And that what folks like me said about Putin and Russia were right all these years. We have a choice. Show that all the talk about freedom was genuine, or cower in fear and hope the Russian bear leaves you alone.

But it’s hilarious that a conspiracy whacko and a MAGA tool would question my mental acumen. 🤣🤣🤣🤣

You made this happen. Take a seat.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1500150599660171267


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## GothicBohemian (May 26, 2012)

I like to read what people are saying online, particularly what those within the lifetime-on-the-internet communities write. It's an easy way to learn about how people think. 

There are a LOT of folks, mostly young guys, who are backing Russia simply because they see too much support for Ukraine from mainstream outlets. Many also like the idea of Russia exercising its military power because they consider it a (conservative) counterbalance to (SJW) America. Most of them are, naturally, not from anywhere remotely near Ukraine or Russia, but are rather people who feel disenfranchised in progressive societies. 

The people of Ukraine are ordinary humans, as are those in Russia. They have the same desires, hopes, dreams, and everyday lives as anyone else. The Russians, Putin included, do not long for poverty and solitude and the Ukrainians do not deserve to be ignored and bombed. Warmongering won't solve anything - it's what's gotten us here - but political notions of isolationism, that folks online tend to confuse with deep intellectual thought, or laughing while the world burns are not helpful either. 

No, NATO should not rush in to start WWIII. That's insane.
No, the world should not let Putin do whatever he wants. Ukrainians, and Russians, are people not abstract concepts or meme fodder. 
There is a middle ground between these two extremes.


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## Seafort (Jun 5, 2014)

BruiserKC said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1500108343641354240
> Hide under your bed. Let the adults handle this. Don’t answer the door, it might be BLM. 🤣
> 
> 
> ...


Suppose Putin’s reaction is that any action...even a single rifle shot is met with a nuclear response? That may be the threat. So NATO establishes even a limited no fly zone...would we trade a European city for a Russian airplane? That’s the quandary that we are in....do we believe that Putin and his government are willing to immediately resort to nuclear weapons at the slightest provocation, with a complete lack of concern for the retaliation that would be visited on their own
Country? It could be a gigantic game of chicken being played by him.


----------



## Outlaw91 (Mar 31, 2011)

@BruiserKC This is real life not war strategy video games you play. 
Fortunately the ones in charge of your country aren't so crazy like you are. Because they could easily use the Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances as an excuse but that would mean the start of World War 3 and clearly only crazy people would do things that may cause the extinct of humanity.


----------



## BruiserKC (Mar 14, 2010)

Outlaw91 said:


> @BruiserKC This is real life not war strategy video games you play.
> Fortunately the ones in charge of your country aren't so crazy like you are. Because they could easily use the Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances as an excuse but that would mean the start of World War 3 and clearly only crazy people would do things that may cause the extinct of humanity.


I’ve served. I’ve been to Kosovo and Afghanistan, unlike those here whose idea of military experience is playing Call of Duty. I have a real life understanding of what we are facing. This isn’t a study in a college classroom. This is real life. And all of you conspiracy theorists think you have all the answers. You accuse us of having sinister motives and now you wring your hands because our leaders listened to you and now our options are limited. And no matter what we do, you will shit on it.



GothicBohemian said:


> I like to read what people are saying online, particularly what those within the lifetime-on-the-internet communities write. It's an easy way to learn about how people think.
> 
> There are a LOT of folks, mostly young guys, who are backing Russia simply because they see too much support for Ukraine from mainstream outlets. Many also like the idea of Russia exercising its military power because they consider it a (conservative) counterbalance to (SJW) America. Most of them are, naturally, not from anywhere remotely near Ukraine or Russia, but are rather people who feel disenfranchised in progressive societies.
> 
> ...





Seafort said:


> Suppose Putin’s reaction is that any action...even a single rifle shot is met with a nuclear response? That may be the threat. So NATO establishes even a limited no fly zone...would we trade a European city for a Russian airplane? That’s the quandary that we are in....do we believe that Putin and his government are willing to immediately resort to nuclear weapons at the slightest provocation, with a complete lack of concern for the retaliation that would be visited on their own
> Country? It could be a gigantic game of chicken being played by him.


I don’t argue that the two extremes are bad. But we need to be prepared for the possibility we might have to do more. Right now, Putin has asked his inner circle to get him a list of countries that are sanctioning him. He has said sanctions are effectively an act of war. The sanctions will really hit in a few weeks when Putin will lack the money to pay his troops and replenish the military. But will it be in time to stop him?

All options need to be on the table. And unfortunately sometimes the only way to deal with a bully is confront them.


----------



## Art Vandaley (Jan 9, 2006)

CamillePunk said:


> The West DID instigate a coup in a relatively pro Russia Ukraine and installed their own government.


Except for the whole they didn't thing, this is part of some weird Q hole you've fallen down. 

The Ukrainian revolution in 2014 led to the legitimate election of a pro russian president ffs, how does your mad conspiracy theory deal with that inconvenient fact I wonder?

That pro Russian president went on to serve a full term until 2019 when he lost election completely legitimately to a pro western candidate, and this war is Putin trying to overturn the democratically elected Ukrainian government.


----------



## Mr. King Of Kings (May 16, 2006)

BruiserKC said:


> Or this…I see what’s going on through the psyop nonsense. What we are seeing is a tyrant who is having his way and we are wringing our hands and won’t do anything. And you make excuses for him. Ignoring this won’t make it go away as the rest of the world is seeing.


You don't have to tell me that he's an authoritarian. I've made it very clear what I think of Putin in this thread.

I'm still kind of trying to figure things out here and not play into the hands of the global elite to make things even worse.



BruiserKC said:


> not pussies scared of a needle or mask.


The convoy was about standing up to government overreach. Plenty of vaccinated people protested against ''Young Global Leader'' Trudeau.


----------



## BruiserKC (Mar 14, 2010)

Mr. King Of Kings said:


> You don't have to tell me that he's an authoritarian. I've made it very clear what I think of Putin in this thread.
> 
> I'm still kind of trying to figure things out here and not play into the hands of the global elite to make things even worse.
> 
> ...


Say you are a conspiracy theorist without saying you are a conspiracy theorist. And the convoy was being heavily bankrolled by Americans.









'Freedom Convoy' donations are about half Canadian, half from U.S., leaked data show






theweek.com





If you don’t want to get involved, at least give them what they need. 









America Must Do More to Help Ukraine Fight Russia


A lend-lease plan for the Ukrainian military.




www.foreignaffairs.com


----------



## Lady Eastwood (Jul 10, 2006)




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## BruiserKC (Mar 14, 2010)

Catalanotto said:


> View attachment 118075


This is why we need to get involved. That and no matter what we do, people will bitch.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1500196362209615875

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1500492671135227904

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1499920134219128834

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1500456291709427712
Whatever the end result is, they will complain.


----------



## wrasslin_casual (May 28, 2020)

FriedTofu said:


> A decent summary of events leading up to the ongoing invasion. But I don't share his conclusion that Putin will lose. He will unleash hell and drive away all dissenters and repopulate the country with loyalists pretty easily if it has to come to that. I don't think he shares the same humanitarian PR concerns as the West in putting down insurgency.
> 
> Also kinda of glaring how Putin's justification for invasion is parallel to the white Christian nationalist playbook in America. Swap out Russia/Putin with real Americans, Nazis with leftists, the west with globalists, Ukraine with modern USA and it sounds like the same thing.


Oh, the west has humanitarian concerns....can you tell me where those concerns were when the US used white phosphorus in Iraq? Or when the allies drone bombed and murdered littler children in Afghanistan just last year and it was widely reported in the mainstream press, I didn't see much PR concern back then.



Alkomesh2 said:


> Except for the whole they didn't thing, this is part of some weird Q hole you've fallen down.
> 
> The Ukrainian revolution in 2014 led to the legitimate election of a pro russian president ffs, how does your mad conspiracy theory deal with that inconvenient fact I wonder?
> 
> That pro Russian president went on to serve a full term until 2019 when he lost election completely legitimately to a pro western candidate, and this war is Putin trying to overturn the democratically elected Ukrainian government.


Huh? Maybe you're the one in a weird Q hole, whatever the hell that is, if you think the previous Ukrainian president was "pro russia"....he was literally the opposite. He signed a pro EU agreement, which fell through but not down to him...heck he went so far as to even separate the Ukraine church from the traditional Russian Orthodox church which had been the premier religion in the region for centuries. I could go on but you seem clueless about this situation.


----------



## Flairwhoo84123 (Jan 3, 2022)

wrasslin_casual said:


> Oh, the west has humanitarian concerns....can you tell me where those concerns were when the US used white phosphorus in Iraq? Or when the allies drone bombed and murdered littler children in Afghanistan just last year and it was widely reported in the mainstream press, I didn't see much PR concern back then.


Or deplated uranium in Kosovo, Libya, etc. Agent orange in Vietnam, or using sanctions against innocent civlians in Cuba, Iran, Iraq(saddam era), Syria(while occupying parts of their country, and supporting headchopping terrorists), and even threatened punishing sanctions on Ethiopia, while backing minority tigrayan tplf terrorists.

"Humantarian intervention" has become a joke, it time to get back to more realism, recriporcialism , restrained in foreign policy , and less boondoggles and adventures overseas, trying to "remake the world in our image", Putin a autocrat, great our allies the Saudis are Bedouin whabbi psychopaths, Pakistan who we rely on a lot is controlled by milltary hardliners and jihadi sympathizers in the ISI, our Turkish-Islamist pal Erodgan is a Neo-Ottoman autocrat who has claims on Iraq's Mosul, parts Northern Syria, The caucuses, parts of Bulgaria,etc. Contuine to occupy Northern Cyprus and has used jihadis to cause suffering in Libya, Nagorno Kharabakah, Syria, and supports terrorists like Al qaeda, and Hamas, Modi in India is a hindu Nationalist , considered autocrat by some here, yet we been pivoting towards him. We deal with workd we have, not the world we want, Putin has intreasts, we have intreasts, some converge, some are far apart, come to the negotiating table from a position of strength, fine Putin you dont want Ukraine as NATO, how about letting Ukraine in EU, and respect its sovereignty, and you get to keep Crimea since it was transferred in Soviet times away from Russia to Ukraine anyways it yours Putin, ok Putin you dont want NATo encroachment, we want you to cease these violations of sovereign nations airspace, non interference in elections and no more assassinations of dissidents on western soil, Putin you want sanctions to end ok but withdrawl must happen in a face shaving manner of course, And hammer out agreements starting from there, etc.

Even Regan worked with Gorbacev, Nixion went to Beijing, and had detente with the Russians, Bush sr didnt intervene in the collapse of soviet union and let the course of events happen naturally, FDR the saint of Democrats worked with Stakin and even before the war recognized the Soviet Union in 1933, Truman response to the Berlin crisis wasnt ww3 or nuking moscow, it was a humantarian airlift, Eisenhower during the Hungarian crisis of 56 gave a speech and canceled a trade deal, JFK recripocrated Khrushev during the Cuban missle crisis by taking out certain missiles from Turkey, and during the Berlin wall crisis basically gave a speech, using the bully pulpit saying "we are all Berliners", and he another saint of the Democrats to this day.

Guess what? The soviets never marched west, containment and realism worked, and the cold war was won with ww3, which proabably dissapointed bruiser fantasy of dying in a nuclear holocaust.



wrasslin_casual said:


> Huh? Maybe you're the one in a weird Q hole, whatever the hell that is, if you think the previous Ukrainian president was "pro russia"....he was literally the opposite. He signed a pro EU agreement, which fell through but not down to him...heck he went so far as to even separate the Ukraine church from the traditional Russian Orthodox church which had been the premier religion in the region for centuries. I could go on but you seem clueless about this situation.


Exactly the uncanonical OCU is one of the factors for the recent crisis, a bishop from another jurdisticion can't give autocephlacy to another church, the canons in Orthodoxy are clear, one bishop , one territory, and what the Ecumenical Patriarchate did was on behalf of Erodgan in Turkey, and the us state department who celebrated the event. Intreasting note that the neonazis like right sector, above battalions, etc being supported by Eastern Catholics who Oethodox refer to as Uniates to kind of clear up the religious side to others.


----------



## Dickhead1990 (Aug 31, 2016)

I just wanted to point out British hypocracy. The Government acts supportive and they're flying Ukraine flags everywhere, including in my city. Here's a photo I took on Saturday. 










On the other hand, a friend of mine has been collecting aid to send over and has been denied the ability to take it into the EU because British customs refused to let it through. 

To make matters worse, it's also in the local news and is blaming the EU, although British customs wouldn't let it through because "Ukraine has enough aid". This was a direct reason provided to them, but the media says otherwise. 

Global Britain people! Gaslighting and empty words.


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## Blade Runner (Jan 24, 2012)

wrasslin_casual said:


> Oh, the west has humanitarian concerns....can you tell me where those concerns were when the US used white phosphorus in Iraq? Or when the allies drone bombed and murdered littler children in Afghanistan just last year and it was widely reported in the mainstream press, I didn't see much PR concern back then.


The hypocrisy of Western Government is pretty incredible.

They support Saudi Arabia, one the most horrific regimes on the planet who beheads their own people and kills others. At least 300,000 people killed since 2014, but nobody seems to notice and nobody seems to care about Yemenis. The British Government still supplies arms to Saudi today to kill Yemenis.

Throughout Obama's presidency, the U.S. approved more than $100 billion in arms sales to Saudi Arabia. His administration oversaw the transfer of everything from small arms and ammunition to tanks, attack helicopters, air-to-ground missiles, missile defense ships, and warships to the kingdom. As the death toll and reports of human rights violations in the Saudi-led war on Yemen began to rise dramatically, the Obama administration nixed the sale of the precision-guided munitions it had originally agreed to put in the deal to try to coerce the Saudis into curbing those atrocities.

I'm not going to post the horrific images, but thousands of children have starved to death due to the ports being bombed by Western bombs sold to Saudi. Put Yemeni children in your browser and look at the images. It's happening NOW


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## AthleticGirth (Jul 25, 2020)

Dickhead1990 said:


> I just wanted to point out British hypocracy. The Government acts supportive and they're flying Ukraine flags everywhere, including in my city. Here's a photo I took on Saturday.
> 
> View attachment 118159
> 
> ...


What a weird and odd parochial post, but on brand for you I suppose. " UK bad, EU good " - sentiments which have got you parroting extremist conspiracy theories and siding with a German nationalist who bats away NAZI atrocities in WWII as 'SOVIET propaganda'. Some bedtime reading for you here about how the Government has been militarily helping Ukraine these past few years. No spin, just facts - weapons and training are a bit more useful than flying flags, prayers and changing your avatar. https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/sn07135/


I should point out as well that member states in your beloved EU, most notably Germany, have funded Putin's war machine, and continue to do so. After Assad's use of chemical weapons the UK Government, US and France were ready to take him out in 2013 but the Labour party lead by Ed Milliband, with the votes of the Tory hard right, voted it down in the Commons allowing Putin to step in, the rest is history. The anti-Semite communist former leader Jeremy Corbyn, currently expelled from the party, sided with Putin in the Commons after the Salisbury poisonings claiming it was all a conspiracy theory. Tony Blair, nuff said.

Labour aren't just the UK's curse, they're the world's curse - and even now they're nothing more than Putin's useful idiots.


----------



## Dickhead1990 (Aug 31, 2016)

AthleticGirth said:


> What a weird and odd parochial post, but on brand for you I suppose. " UK bad, EU good " - sentiments which have got you parroting extremist conspiracy theories and siding with a German nationalist who bats away NAZI atrocities in WWII as 'SOVIET propaganda'. Some bedtime reading for you here about how the Government has been militarily helping Ukraine these past few years. No spin, just facts - weapons and training are a bit more useful than flying flags, prayers and changing your avatar. https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/sn07135/
> 
> 
> I should point out as well that member states in your beloved EU, most notably Germany, have funded Putin's war machine, and continue to do so. After Assad's use of chemical weapons the UK Government, US and France were ready to take him out in 2013 but the Labour party lead by Ed Milliband, with the votes of the Tory hard right, voted it down in the Commons allowing Putin to step in, the rest is history. The anti-Semite communist former leader Jeremy Corbyn, currently expelled from the party, sided with Putin in the Commons after the Salisbury poisonings claiming it was all a conspiracy theory. Tony Blair, nuff said.
> ...


Nice try, but you have zero experience with this issue and you're just parroting Internet idiocy. Try explaining that to the people that had to turn back yesterday from Dover. Once again, someone I personally know and helped raise money for, not some clown on the internet. If you think you know better, get your arse down to Dover and correct the British Custom's procedure. Report back when you're turned away for being a clown.

If you want to play "listen to my alt-history", are you aware that Boris Johnson offered peerages to former KGB agents? Putin also funded Brexit campaigns and is far right, like you. You're a product of Putin!


----------



## FriedTofu (Sep 29, 2014)

Alkomesh2 said:


> Except for the whole they didn't thing, this is part of some weird Q hole you've fallen down.
> 
> The Ukrainian revolution in 2014 led to the legitimate election of a pro russian president ffs, how does your mad conspiracy theory deal with that inconvenient fact I wonder?
> 
> That pro Russian president went on to serve a full term until 2019 when he lost election completely legitimately to a pro western candidate, and this war is Putin trying to overturn the democratically elected Ukrainian government.


He wasn't pro-Russian, but more pro-Ukraine nationalism. Which sometimes is in conflict with what the West wants, but definitely hold more anti-Russian positions.



wrasslin_casual said:


> Oh, the west has humanitarian concerns....can you tell me where those concerns were when the US used white phosphorus in Iraq? Or when the allies drone bombed and murdered littler children in Afghanistan just last year and it was widely reported in the mainstream press, I didn't see much PR concern back then.
> 
> 
> 
> Huh? Maybe you're the one in a weird Q hole, whatever the hell that is, if you think the previous Ukrainian president was "pro russia"....he was literally the opposite. He signed a pro EU agreement, which fell through but not down to him...heck he went so far as to even separate the Ukraine church from the traditional Russian Orthodox church which had been the premier religion in the region for centuries. I could go on but you seem clueless about this situation.


The PR concerns are politicians or businesses have to run defensive cover after counter insurgency measures were made known. The Western centric press being critical of how the occupancy in Vietnam and Iraq went has more of an impact in local politics of America than say what Russian conduct in Georgia have on Russian local politics.


----------



## wrasslin_casual (May 28, 2020)

FriedTofu said:


> He wasn't pro-Russian, but more pro-Ukraine nationalism. Which sometimes is in conflict with what the West wants, but definitely hold more anti-Russian positions.
> 
> 
> The PR concerns are politicians or businesses have to run defensive cover after counter insurgency measures were made known. The Western centric press being critical of how the occupancy in Vietnam and Iraq went has more of an impact in local politics of America than say what Russian conduct in Georgia have on Russian local politics.


That's not true at all. Has the media stopped any further wars and military aggression by the US since 2003? The people are so apathetic and so stupid they don't even know that wasting trillions of dollars abroad while not even funding healthcare at home is killing them.



KYRA BATARA said:


> The hypocrisy of Western Government is pretty incredible.
> 
> They support Saudi Arabia, one the most horrific regimes on the planet who beheads their own people and kills others. At least 300,000 people killed since 2014, but nobody seems to notice and nobody seems to care about Yemenis. The British Government still supplies arms to Saudi today to kill Yemenis.
> 
> ...


The Saudi regime is actually pretty good to its own people, they have universal healthcare something Americans can only dream of.

Also, this whole line I keep seeing here "well western governments are hypocrites because they support x, y or z" is missing the point. Western governments are hypocrites because they themselves have carried out the worst violence and promoted the worst humanitarian crises in history. Forget who we're funding, this is the horror we ourselves have spread through the world.


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## Irish Jet (Nov 15, 2011)

wrasslin_casual said:


> The Saudi regime is actually pretty good to its own people, they have universal healthcare something Americans can only dream of.


Except they're very selective of who they consider their own people. 30% of their population are immigrants and they do 90% of the work. Their system is entirely based on exploiting foreign labour.


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## wrasslin_casual (May 28, 2020)

Irish Jet said:


> Except they're very selective of who they consider their own people. 30% of their population are immigrants and they do 90% of the work. Their system is entirely based on exploiting foreign labour.


Regardless....free healthcare for more people than the US offers. Why can't the US offer healthcare to its people?


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## FriedTofu (Sep 29, 2014)

wrasslin_casual said:


> That's not true at all. Has the media stopped any further wars and military aggression by the US since 2003? The people are so apathetic and so stupid they don't even know that wasting trillions of dollars abroad while not even funding healthcare at home is killing them.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


For what's its worth, it made the US more reluctant to put troops on the ground as cavalier as they did. The declining local support after the horrors of being occupiers eventually led to the withdrawal from Vietnam.

All sides of war is ugly. But the West political leaders faces a non-zero chance of pushbacks from bad optics of a war with losing elections or impeachments. Authoritarian regimes like the current Putin's government do not.


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## wrasslin_casual (May 28, 2020)

FriedTofu said:


> For what's its worth, it made the US more reluctant to put troops on the ground as cavalier as they did. The declining local support after the horrors of being occupiers eventually led to the withdrawal from Vietnam.
> 
> All sides of war is ugly. But the West political leaders faces a non-zero chance of pushbacks from bad optics of a war with losing elections or impeachments. Authoritarian regimes like the current Putin's government do not.


Vietnam was almost 60 years ago and I agree, the optics of that war, with at times live broadcasts from the region, with uncensored images of dead children filtering through to the American audience did make a difference.

My post however was post 2003, in an era where there is no independent press...the US has carried out horrors that even the worst of the 20th century could not imagine, mass murder, polluting water, poisoning food, where and when has the media been instrumental in stopping any of this in that time period?


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## FriedTofu (Sep 29, 2014)

wrasslin_casual said:


> Vietnam was almost 60 years ago and I agree, the optics of that war, with at times live broadcasts from the region, with uncensored images of dead children filtering through to the American audience did make a difference.
> 
> My post however was post 2003, in an era where there is no independent press...the US has carried out horrors that even the worst of the 20th century could not imagine, mass murder, polluting water, poisoning food, where and when has the media been instrumental in stopping any of this in that time period?


The media can only inform, and the bad PR did eventually put pressure on political leadership to withdraw American troops from Iraq and Afghanistan, regardless of the on the ground situation.

You are being deliberately obtuse if you think there is no difference in the pressure of bad PR on the West and on a regime like Putin's. Are you a tankie by any chance?


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## njcam (Mar 30, 2014)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1500794400657584131


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## FriedTofu (Sep 29, 2014)

njcam said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1500794400657584131


China: Hey Taiwan is not a country.


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## Irish Jet (Nov 15, 2011)

wrasslin_casual said:


> Regardless....free healthcare for more people than the US offers. Why can't the US offer healthcare to its people?


Because people should be free to die of whatever affliction befalls them.


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## wrasslin_casual (May 28, 2020)

FriedTofu said:


> The media can only inform, and the bad PR did eventually put pressure on political leadership to withdraw American troops from Iraq and Afghanistan, regardless of the on the ground situation.
> 
> You are being deliberately obtuse if you think there is no difference in the pressure of bad PR on the West and on a regime like Putin's. Are you a tankie by any chance?


This is utter nonsense! Bad PR was not even close to the reason US and its allies withdrew from Afghanistan. Do you even bother to think before you type?

The withdrawal occurred as a result of several negotiations with the Taliban, aided by Pakistan and the Qatar, that go back as far as 2010. Answer me this (you never actually answer my points but lets give it a go kiddo): if the US and the west in general is so concerned about bad PR, why have they bombed and killed little children in Afghanistan and then admitted it on national TV, all while the Taliban held up their side of the bargain last year?



Irish Jet said:


> Because people should be free to die of whatever affliction befalls them.


Good job kid, you just lost your brain!


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## Irish Jet (Nov 15, 2011)

wrasslin_casual said:


> Good job kid, you just lost your brain!


If healthcare is a human right then why would 18th century slave owners not include it in the constitution?

Checkmate libtard.


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## GothicBohemian (May 26, 2012)

As the actual libtard of this thread, I'd like to congratulate those who moved on in here to disrupt what was a resource for information. Surprisingly, it took longer than on many other parts of the internet - may be that's 'cause so few folks give a shit about wrestling anymore.


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## FriedTofu (Sep 29, 2014)

wrasslin_casual said:


> This is utter nonsense! Bad PR was not even close to the reason US and its allies withdrew from Afghanistan. Do you even bother to think before you type?
> 
> The withdrawal occurred as a result of several negotiations with the Taliban, aided by Pakistan and the Qatar, that go back as far as 2010. Answer me this (you never actually answer my points but lets give it a go kiddo): if the US and the west in general is so concerned about bad PR, why have they bombed and killed little children in Afghanistan and then admitted it on national TV, all while the Taliban held up their side of the bargain last year?


The withdrawal happened because the US elected an isolationism president after years of bad optics of fighting the insurgency in Afghanistan.

Like I said in my earlier replies, leaders in the West have to face re-elections or impeachments which si why the PR optics of a brutal occupation is a factor to them.

Are you trying to say Russian reaction to an insurgency would be less brutal than the West? Or, if your country is occupied, would you prefer the US way or the Russian way?


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## Skermac (Apr 6, 2012)

i dont watch the news every day so i may have missed it if it was said, im guessing a land grab like other historical evil leaders, or maybe he doesnt like the people and wants them dead?


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## Adapting (Jun 21, 2020)

Apparently to protect people subjected to bullying and aim for the "demilitarization and de-Nazification" of Ukraine. That was Putin's reasoning.


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## The One (Jul 16, 2012)

Adapting said:


> Apparently to protect people subjected to bullying and aim for the "demilitarization and de-Nazification" of Ukraine. That was Putin's reasoning.


Huh? I thought Russia didn’t want Ukraine to join NATO.


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## Adapting (Jun 21, 2020)

The One said:


> Huh? I thought Russia didn’t want Ukraine to join NATO.


Yea, that ties to it as well.


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## JeSeGaN (Jun 5, 2018)

What @Adapting said.

But we all know that's complete BS. Putin wants the USSR back, in all its glory. Annexing Ukraine is only the first step.


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## hardcorewrasslin (Jun 29, 2016)

Just because


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## BLISSED & LYNCHED (Dec 21, 2021)

Because Vladimir Putin is easily classifiable as a psychopathic narcissist and he wants to be someone before he dies in his old age. There's gas lines running under Ukraine that he may benefit from but who knows? The reason he gave on tv was he felt that the USA and western Europe was corrupting the Ukrainian people from being 'one people' with the Russians a.k.a people want to live their own life by their own rules and he doesn't like it. Him eating lead would be a benefit to the entire world, Lukashenko as well.


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## KNSFFA (11 mo ago)

Not been following the news since the weekend. Just too depressing. But need to see how things are going. Thanks as always to posters here who posts tweets, reports, perspectives on the matters. It's helpful.


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## Irish Jet (Nov 15, 2011)

Putin seen one of Zelenskyy's comedy routines and had enough.


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## FriedTofu (Sep 29, 2014)

Part of it is Putin never saw Ukraine as a legitimate country and dreams of reviving the USSR. 

Another part of it is shale gas reserves is discovered in Ukraine about a decade ago that potentially could undermine Russia's historical leverage over Ukraine. If Ukraine become self-sufficient in their natural gas needs, they are less likely to be beholden to Russia. 

Oh and also Russia's pipeline to Europe are mostly under Ukraine territory. So Russia has incentive to get those pipelines under their control before Ukraine become too friendly with the EU as energy supply is just about the only leverage Russia have over the EU.


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## Charzhino (Nov 20, 2007)

Watch Putins Munich speech from 2007 and the 1 hour long he gave recently.

Basically he has expressed concern for decades that NATO is expanding military bases closer to and closer to Russias borders but his concerns were met with deaf ears. He even wanted Russia to join NATO but they refused. Ukraine being informally accepted into NATO was the last straw.


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## FriedTofu (Sep 29, 2014)

Judging by Putin's actions in the region, I say NATO was correct in refusing to allow Russia to join.

McDonald's temporarily closing their stores in Russia for now. Maybe it is for PR, or maybe for the safety of the staff. But probably because the money won't be worth shit with the current value of the ruble.


----------



## thorwold (Dec 19, 2015)




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## GreatJIm (Apr 19, 2021)

Imagine if Russia started an alliance who's primary goal is to encircle USA with Cuba, Brazil, Argentina, and all the central American states. Russia wants Mexico to join this alliance but the Mexican government is friendly with USA. So Russia decides to do a coup on the elected government of Mexico and install a Russia friendly regime. USA says mexico joining this alliance is a redline and USA cannot have Russian military bases and missiles so close to border. Russia ignores USA, says mexico joining the alliance is Mexico's choice. Some border states of Mexico who has a majority English speaking population says hey we like USA more And decides to leave Mexico. USA gives weapons to these rebels. Mexican army doesn't really want to fight these rebels, so the new Mexican regime arms a neo Nazi Mexican supremacist group and sends them to these border rebel states. The neo Nazis don't very much like English speakers and decides to kill dissenters.

USA gives more weapons to these rebels and war lasts 5 years in which alot of civilians are displaced. The war is kind of stalemate.

Fast forward, The new Mexican government says it wants to join the alliance and their president says they want to get nukes. USA says no, this is a red line And decides to invade to demilitarize Mexico and insure that they don't have Russian missiles and bases there. 

Russia says why are you doing this. Stop! Mexico didn't do anything. Stop this illegal war! Russia leaves Mexico high and dry with no alliance protection. The new Mexican president tries to get the Russian alliance to help. Russia says sorry we can't risk a nuclear war with USA. 

Mexican president is in a shit spot. He can't really negotiate with USA because the neo Nazis will most likely put a bullet in his head. 

Replace Mexico with Ukraine. Swap Russia with USA.


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## LongPig666 (Mar 27, 2019)

*Officially:* It is a reaction to NATO expansion.

*Unofficially:* Good old fashioned land grab.

As long as America stays away, it will be fine.


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## toon126 (Nov 10, 2015)

Ukraine wants to join the EU and NATO want Ukraine to join them too.

The issue is that the fall of the Berlin Wall was agreed with the Soviet Union on the condition that NATO doesn't move one inch to the East - which they broke almost instantly by uniting Germany as one nation again. Ever since they've slowly moved in the direction of Russia, despite repeated warnings for years not to. 

Now the major issue with this is a) Putin doesn't want NATO forces set up all around Russia's border for obvious reasons, regardless of whether that's a rational thought or not, and b) IF Ukraine was a part of the EU/NATO, and IF those forces decided to do something like try and take back Crimea or provoke Russia with anything else that could be considered an act of war, then the rest of Europe - and NATO - are obligated to fight, sparking a genuine World War. Something Putin himself has said he doesn't ever want to happen as he can't compete army-size wise. 

Now the obvious questions are would NATO really do anything to draw Russia into a war deliberately? And is this really about Putin wanting to reform the Soviet Union, which he has always been bitter about collapsing?

But whatever you think, NATO are not helping matters one bit. They've continued to break their word to not move East, continued to set up camp close to Russian borders - while not wanting Russia to join - and even now this whole issue could be resolved with a simple guarantee that Ukraine will never join NATO or the EU. I have no dog in that fight, but it would save a lot of lives if Zelenskyy simply agreed to maintain the status quo. 

You also have to notice the media narrative around this. Putin is doing what he thinks is right to protect his country (again, debatable), but when the US parked weapons in Italy and Turkey back in the 60s, and Russia responded by setting up camp in Cuba, it sparked the Cuban Missile Crisis where the US quarantined Cuba effectively until Russia backed off. JFK was hailed as a hero, even though he also quietly withdrew weapons from Europe, while Putin is considered a murderous dictator. I get that JFK didn't invade Cuba, but he still felt the US had the right to intervene in a sovereign country to get his way.

It's very, very complex and historical geo-politics that's been completely minimised in the media to just make Putin the bad guy, and everyone else the good guy.


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## wrasslin_casual (May 28, 2020)

FriedTofu said:


> The withdrawal happened because the US elected an isolationism president after years of bad optics of fighting the insurgency in Afghanistan.
> 
> Like I said in my earlier replies, leaders in the West have to face re-elections or impeachments which si why the PR optics of a brutal occupation is a factor to them.
> 
> Are you trying to say Russian reaction to an insurgency would be less brutal than the West? Or, if your country is occupied, would you prefer the US way or the Russian way?


This is a joke. Take your opinion to any literate political analyst and they'd laugh you out the room. Yes the media helped the Taliban 😆 😵😆



Skermac said:


> i dont watch the news every day so i may have missed it if it was said, im guessing a land grab like other historical evil leaders, or maybe he doesnt like the people and wants them dead?


Was it ever said? Vaguely.

Was there ever a detailed description of Ukraine nearing to NATO, US wanting to place nuclear weapons on Ukrainian soil, Ukraine bombing the Donbas region which wanted autonomy, now Putin wants it to be an overt part of Russia.

Russia had a lot of reasons to do what it's doing and many more justified than the US invading Afghanistan and Iraq.


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## Lady Eastwood (Jul 10, 2006)

Alright, guys, if you can’t discuss without insults and such, just don’t post. This thread has been fairly mature, which is much appreciated, let’s keep it that way  

Cheers 🥂


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## stew mack (Apr 24, 2013)

Im confused I thought Putin was fighting Nazism in Ukraine like a Russian version of ANTIFA? are you telling me people lie about fighting the evil that is Fascism?!



BruiserKC said:


> World War III has pretty much started.
> The targeting of the nuclear power plant, by Russia, last night, makes clear that the Russians are very much focused on destroying basic infrastructure now -- power, water, etc.
> The refugee crisis they bring will be like nothing Europe has seen in decades. The human suffering will be terrible.
> 
> ...



id rather see 100 thousand ukranians dead in the streets than 10 of our dead US boys



Irish Jet said:


> Except they're very selective of who they consider their own people. 30% of their population are immigrants and they do 90% of the work. Their system is entirely based on exploiting foreign labour.



you just are going after Saudi Arabia because "some people did something!" you clearly are anti Saudi for a reason!


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## Irish Jet (Nov 15, 2011)

stew mack said:


> you just are going after Saudi Arabia because "some people did something!" you clearly are anti Saudi for a reason!


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## BruiserKC (Mar 14, 2010)

stew mack said:


> id rather see 100 thousand ukranians dead in the streets than 10 of our dead US boys





stew mack said:


> you just are going after Saudi Arabia because "some people did something!" you clearly are anti Saudi for a reason!


Saudi Arabia to me has always been our enemy. I’m perfectly fine with cutting off all financial and diplomatic relations with them. It was Saudis who perpetrated 9/11, as fliers of the planes and the mastermind (OBL). 

And glad you see it’s ok to deliberately kill innocent civilians and bomb hospitals, etc. Meanwhile, if the war expands into NATO we will be dragged into it.


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## stew mack (Apr 24, 2013)

Irish Jet said:


>


she annoys me but id still put it in her lol.. think she got anything to grab under that hat or would i have to just lightly tap her head while hitting it?


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## Lady Eastwood (Jul 10, 2006)

stew mack said:


> id rather see 100 thousand ukranians dead in the streets than 10 of our dead US boys


That’s a pretty terrible thing to say.


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## stew mack (Apr 24, 2013)

Catalanotto said:


> That’s a pretty terrible thing to say.



why? we shouldnt get involved unless it ends up at critical mass, we are not nation builders and never have been. if this were 2003 youd be calling me unpatriotic for not wanting to go into Iraq


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## Mr. King Of Kings (May 16, 2006)

stew mack said:


> Im confused I thought Putin was fighting Nazism in Ukraine like a Russian version of ANTIFA?


I don't know if you have noticed, but everyone thinks they're fighting Nazis. The mainstream left and right both think they're opposing Nazis. The West views Putin as the current next Hitler, and Russia wants to ''denazify'' a country that has a Jewish president. You can't take this world seriously if you take a step back.


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## stew mack (Apr 24, 2013)

Mr. King Of Kings said:


> I don't know if you have noticed, but everyone thinks they're fighting Nazis. The mainstream left and right both think they're opposing Nazis. The West views Putin as the current next Hitler, and Russia wants to ''denazify'' a country that has a Jewish president. You can't take this world seriously if you take a step back.



hey man i was told if there are 11 non nazis and 1 nazi hanging at a table then there are actually 12 nazis so by that logic Putin is denazifying Ukraine


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## AthleticGirth (Jul 25, 2020)

Some interesting polling from US pollsters Cyngnal on the war in Ukraine. Poll: Westerners Feel Like Ukrainians - Do More - Cygnal

It's pleasing to see that Boris and the UK enjoy the highest approval ratings from Ukrainians for a foreign leader/nation. Operation Orbital meant a whole lot more to Ukraine than your sophomoric and pointless foot stomping over not flying the Ukrainian flag everywhere @Dickhead1990. Practical help matters over empty gesturing.


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## GreatJIm (Apr 19, 2021)

Ukraine actually has a neo Nazi battalion called azov. They use Nazi iconography. Usa doesn't care as long they are fighting Russia. Same as when usa armed bin laden in Afghanistan. Or arms jihadi terrorist in Syria. 

Putin uses azov Nazis as an excuse to grab more land.


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## Dickhead1990 (Aug 31, 2016)

AthleticGirth said:


> Some interesting polling from US pollsters Cyngnal on the war in Ukraine. Poll: Westerners Feel Like Ukrainians - Do More - Cygnal
> 
> It's pleasing to see that Boris and the UK enjoy the highest approval ratings from Ukrainians for a foreign leader/nation. Operation Orbital meant a whole lot more to Ukraine than your sophomoric and pointless foot stomping over not flying the Ukrainian flag everywhere @Dickhead1990. Practical help matters over empty gesturing.


Lol who said that the UK is anymore favoured than many other EU countries? Did the British press tell you that? There are more refugees in Barcelona alone than the whole UK at this exact point! It's even in the news today that the Government are prioritising bureaucracy over lives. Even Poland has provided more hardware than us and the UK has merely talked about sending weapons to this day.

Operation Orbital is one of the reasons for Russia's invasion recently. Putin had enough of NATO troops supplying weapons to Ukraine, following annexing Crimea. Britain and the west's involvement here likely lit a fire under Putin's arse that caused this invasion. 

Actually, I said that they were flying the flag and gaslighting them, not the other way around. I posted a picture of a flag in my city, didn't I?

Have you been to Dover yet? I live down the road and can take you down there if you want to show how smart you are. I'm free Saturday and would love to watch customs tear you a new one, with all of your internet fake opinions.


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## RealDealNow (May 21, 2021)

Mr. King Of Kings said:


> I don't know if you have noticed, but everyone thinks they're fighting Nazis. The mainstream left and right both think they're opposing Nazis. The West views Putin as the current next Hitler, and Russia wants to ''denazify'' a country that has a Jewish president. You can't take this world seriously if you take a step back.


Yeah, Putin has called Zelenskyy a neo-Nazi & the same has been said in response. The word has almost completely lost all meaning.


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## CamillePunk (Feb 10, 2011)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1501665046769897479 lol we are so fucked


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## FriedTofu (Sep 29, 2014)

wrasslin_casual said:


> This is a joke. Take your opinion to any literate political analyst and they'd laugh you out the room. Yes the media helped the Taliban 😆 😵😆


I mean the media worked in making the Taliban look less worse than the West to you. And seems to have worked in making the Putin regime look less worse than the West to you.

The temptation to see the foreign oppressor as a counter balance to your local oppressors have clouded any judgement by tankies such as you.


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## JeSeGaN (Jun 5, 2018)

CamillePunk said:


> lol we are so fucked


This Salazar person sounds like a major doofus, lmfao


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## wrasslin_casual (May 28, 2020)

FriedTofu said:


> I mean the media worked in making the Taliban look less worse than the West to you. And seems to have worked in making the Putin regime look less worse than the West to you.
> 
> The temptation to see the foreign oppressor as a counter balance to your local oppressors have clouded any judgement by tankies such as you.


The media made the taliban look less worse than the west? hahahaha You are a clown, I wish I could ban you and then send you back to kindergarten.


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## FriedTofu (Sep 29, 2014)

wrasslin_casual said:


> The media made the taliban look less worse than the west? hahahaha You are a clown, I wish I could ban you and then send you back to kindergarten.


I meant to you. Your reading comprehension is really terrible. You tankies are so bad at understanding what you are fighting against so the first thing to come to your mind is ban others. lol


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## CamillePunk (Feb 10, 2011)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1502353759455821833 Thank God we have sane people in the White House. Can't imagine how Trump would be handling this crisis, with Hannity whispering in his ear about how we should be committing false flag war crimes against the Russians. 🤦


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## Adapting (Jun 21, 2020)

CamillePunk said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1502353759455821833 Thank God we have sane people in the White House. Can't imagine how Trump would be handling this crisis, with Hannity whispering in his ear about how we should be committing false flag war crimes against the Russians. 🤦


If Trump was in the white house this issue wouldn't be going on.


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## AthleticGirth (Jul 25, 2020)

"World War IIl", all a bit low brow and tabloid from Biden, a man who marketed himself as a tough guy, foreign policy expert and statesman - he's failed to rise to the occasion. Blinken's actually representing the US with some gravitas and strength on the world stage, more of him, less of Biden/Harris. 

The longer this conflict goes on, the more civilian bodies pile up, the greater the calls for NATO to intervene will get - Miss Lindsey Graham's going to be dressed like Rambo for his Fox interviews soon. We need to hope these sanctions on Russia work and a diplomatic compromise can be reached.

Going forward a new strategy to stymie Russian aggression has to be taken, because three decades of trying to integrate them into our economies and shared values clearly hasn't worked. Putin may be gone soon, but those Russian nukes will still be there.


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## Mr. King Of Kings (May 16, 2006)

.


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## Mainboy (Jan 30, 2012)

CamillePunk said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1502353759455821833 Thank God we have sane people in the White House. Can't imagine how Trump would be handling this crisis, with Hannity whispering in his ear about how we should be committing false flag war crimes against the Russians. 🤦


Totally agree with him. 

Meanwhile over here in Scotland. Our first minister said we should consider a no fly zone over Ukraine. A fucking clown of a leader to even suggest that. 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1501542514037526529


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## CamillePunk (Feb 10, 2011)

Adapting said:


> If Trump was in the white house this issue wouldn't be going on.


Perhaps, but not a risk I'd be willing to take.


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## AthleticGirth (Jul 25, 2020)

Mainboy said:


> Meanwhile over here in Scotland. Our first minister said we should consider a no fly zone over Ukraine. A fucking clown of a leader to even suggest that.


At the same time as advocating the scrapping of Trident no less. 

For all intents and purposes Wee Nippy's a regional politician. Blackford's voice carries more weight over Ukraine, as does his Commons vote.


----------



## Punkhead (Dec 29, 2011)

Holy shit, the whole world has gone fucking crazy. There's so much blind hate on all sides that I'm not sure where to even begin. For one, it's funny how everyone suddenly went from "nobody supports Putin, he steals the elections" to "fuck common Russian people, they all support Putin". I've seen a lot of comments saying that if the west punishes and breaks the common people, they'll snap, go out to the streets and overthrow their government. It's both funny and sad reading comments online from ignorant and delusional westerners who think they know what they're talking about.


----------



## Mainboy (Jan 30, 2012)

AthleticGirth said:


> At the same time as advocating the scrapping of Trident no less.
> 
> For all intents and purposes Wee Nippy's a regional politician. Blackford's voice carries more weight over Ukraine, as does his Commons vote.


Sturgeon should have said nothing on this 

Still want Independence but cancelled my SNP membership last year due to them bringing back restrictions which fucked over a lot of businesses at the busiest time of the year.


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## CamillePunk (Feb 10, 2011)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1502646084643930113


Mainboy said:


> Sturgeon should have said nothing on this
> 
> Still want Independence but cancelled my SNP membership last year due to them bringing back restrictions which fucked over a lot of businesses at the busiest time of the year.


Who cares about human lives when there's money to be made am I right?


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## Ger (Jul 20, 2018)

GothicBohemian said:


> As the actual libtard of this thread, I'd like to congratulate those who moved on in here to disrupt what was a resource for information. Surprisingly, it took longer than on many other parts of the internet - may be that's 'cause so few folks give a shit about wrestling anymore.


The problem is people are allowed to plant extreme positions on other people here, which they never had. While everybody can disagree with @BruiserKC , it is destructive for the discussion to call him drug user or something.
We got too many people in the "west" which are enemies of the western systems and want a "strong leader", because they are scared of everything "new". They missed to adapt. And some places on the internet are multipliers for these kind of people, including WF. So no need to cry about Putin, when we are not even able to handle his supporters around us. I called that out 2 weeks ago and then I was banned for that.


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## wrasslin_casual (May 28, 2020)

FriedTofu said:


> I meant to you. Your reading comprehension is really terrible. You tankies are so bad at understanding what you are fighting against so the first thing to come to your mind is ban others. lol


First off, no idea what a tankie is. Stop being a kid and use actual words.

Second, your quote "I mean the media worked in making the Taliban look less worse than the West to you.". Ok why is this aimed at me? When did I said the taliban were better or for that matter, worse? 

I am simply stating, and kid, something us adults do is stay on the actual point of argument, is that the western media has not been influential in stopping the mass murder carried out by the west since may vietnam (if even vietnam). Rather than nonsensical red herrings and ad hominems, address the point or provide evidence for your claim. Otherwise I'll send you back to school.



Mr. King Of Kings said:


> I don't know if you have noticed, but everyone thinks they're fighting Nazis. The mainstream left and right both think they're opposing Nazis. The West views Putin as the current next Hitler, and Russia wants to ''denazify'' a country that has a Jewish president. You can't take this world seriously if you take a step back.


The US had a black president, did that end racism in the USA? 

It's stupid to use this line of reasoning "oh well, UKraine president is jewish, so no Nazis" yet post 2014 it's been common knowledge for any educated adult that large sections of the military and private militias are either Nazis or supported by Nazis. The BBC even used to make documentaries about this before they became pro Ukraine. 

Seriously, people on the internet need to stop mass repeating whatever fancy sentence they think sounded smart.


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## FriedTofu (Sep 29, 2014)

wrasslin_casual said:


> First off, no idea what a tankie is. Stop being a kid and use actual words.
> 
> Second, your quote "I mean the media worked in making the Taliban look less worse than the West to you.". Ok why is this aimed at me? When did I said the taliban were better or for that matter, worse?
> 
> I am simply stating, and kid, something us adults do is stay on the actual point of argument, is that the western media has not been influential in stopping the mass murder carried out by the west since may vietnam (if even vietnam). Rather than nonsensical red herrings and ad hominems, address the point or provide evidence for your claim. Otherwise I'll send you back to school.











Tankie - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org




Basically the naive belief of the enemy of my enemy is my friend.

It was my sarcastic reply to your sarcastic remark about the Taliban. Are you really British to not notice a quip to your quip?

You keep conflating my remark as saying the West have to run cover for their actions as saying I am stating it will end the war. I am saying they will face opposition and have to come up with new ways to sell the same shit. And if they fail to do so, they face losing their political power at least in the short term. While regimes like Putin's do not.

Also, from my experience, someone who think labeling someone as kid is an insult is either a kid trying to act older than they really are, or never really grew up in maturity at all. Got to be honest, you sound a lot like the first one in your posts in here.


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## wrasslin_casual (May 28, 2020)

FriedTofu said:


> Tankie - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You have few brain cells, you said yourself that it was due to the bad PR that the war in Afghanistan came to an end and I when I stated the factual reaso nfor why it came to an end, you denied it 😵 😆 

You're lucky I have continued to discuss this with you rather than not continuously mock you. But we're done now chap.


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## FriedTofu (Sep 29, 2014)

wrasslin_casual said:


> You have few brain cells, you said yourself that it was due to the bad PR that the war in Afghanistan came to an end and I when I stated the factual reaso nfor why it came to an end, you denied it 😵 😆
> 
> You're lucky I have continued to discuss this with you rather than not continuously mock you. But we're done now chap.


I said bad PR led to America electing an isolationist president that led to the withdrawal from Afghanistan. I.e the inccumbent/establishment paid a political price for the bad optics of the occupation.

Dude how old are you? You sound like some college kid thinking you know shit because you chance upon some tankie influencer talking shit.


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## wrasslin_casual (May 28, 2020)

FriedTofu said:


> I said bad PR led to America electing an isolationist president that led to the withdrawal from Afghanistan. I.e the inccumbent/establishment paid a political price for the bad optics of the occupation.
> 
> Dude how old are you? You sound like some college kid thinking you know shit because you chance upon some tankie influencer talking shit.


Please don't use words like dude, you are no ta surfer from 1987. 

Btw ,what you claim to have said now is even worse "I said bad PR led to America electing an isolationist president that led to the withdrawal from Afghanistan"...the hell does that mean?? Which isolationist president? I assume you are mad at Trump but it was Obama who started negotiations with Taliban almost a decade ago, actually maybe 12 years ago (I think it was 2012). The aim was always to leave Afghanistan, and it had to do with increasingly losing ground in the country, not because Obama was worried what some guy on CNN was saying. Kids these days should learn to read basic history.


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## AuthorOfPosts (Feb 9, 2020)

Has it become a crazy, tribal, left/right issue where both Fox News and MSNBC just look for "gotcha moments" yet? I feel like all news stories end up going that way in America.


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## GothicBohemian (May 26, 2012)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1503444260938526720
Her sign says:
NO WAR.
Stop the war.
Don't believe propaganda.
They are lying to you here.
Looks like Russians - it ends in "ains" - against war at the bottom. 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1503453014643949576
Russian state TV editor interrupts live news broadcast with anti-war message — Meduza

_“What is happening in Ukraine is a crime. And Russia is the aggressor here. And responsibility for this aggression rests on the conscience of a single man: Vladimir Putin. My father is Ukrainian. My mother is Russian. And they’ve never been enemies. And this necklace I’m wearing is a symbol of that fact that Russia must immediately end this fratricidal war. And our fraternal peoples will still be able to make peace. Unfortunately, I’ve spent many of the last few years working for Channel One, doing Kremlin propaganda, and I’m deeply ashamed of this. Ashamed that I allowed lies to come from the TV screen. Ashamed that I allowed the zombification of Russian people. We were silent in 2014 when all this had just started. We didn’t protest when the Kremlin poisoned Navalny. We just silently watched this anti-human regime at work. And now the whole world has turned its back on us. And the next 10 generations won’t wash away the stain of this fratricidal war. We Russians are thinking and intelligent people. It’s in our power alone to stop all this madness. Go protest. Don’t be afraid of anything. They can’t lock us all away.” _


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## Ger (Jul 20, 2018)




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## BruiserKC (Mar 14, 2010)

Ger said:


> The problem is people are allowed to plant extreme positions on other people here, which they never had. While everybody can disagree with @BruiserKC , it is destructive for the discussion to call him drug user or something.
> We got too many people in the "west" which are enemies of the western systems and want a "strong leader", because they are scared of everything "new". They missed to adapt. And some places on the internet are multipliers for these kind of people, including WF. So no need to cry about Putin, when we are not even able to handle his supporters around us. I called that out 2 weeks ago and then I was banned for that.


They are afraid to fight. Plain and simple. I find it hilarious that they accuse me of being a warmonger because I’m willing to look at all options. I don’t want war, but I also understand the consequences of allowing Putin to blackmail the world into standing by and doing nothing. At some point we will need to determine if there is a red line that will lead us to get involved. And appeasement does not work.


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## Twilight Sky (Feb 19, 2019)

That woman with the poster has gone missing..but I guess thats no surprise..

Also I am of the same thinking as BruiserKC.


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## CamillePunk (Feb 10, 2011)

BruiserKC said:


> They are afraid to fight. Plain and simple. I find it hilarious that they accuse me of being a warmonger because I’m willing to look at all options. I don’t want war, but I also understand the consequences of allowing Putin to blackmail the world into standing by and doing nothing. At some point we will need to determine if there is a red line that will lead us to get involved. And appeasement does not work.


There is a red line, it's if they attack a NATO ally. They haven't done that. This has been repeated many times and you refuse to hear it because your "I don't want war" spiel is pure bullshit. You want us to attack Russia directly and start WW3.


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## BruiserKC (Mar 14, 2010)

CamillePunk said:


> There is a red line, it's if they attack a NATO ally. They haven't done that. This has been repeated many times and you refuse to hear it because your "I don't want war" spiel is pure bullshit. You want us to attack Russia directly and start WW3.


And I have said nothing about attacking Russia directly. Attacking the forces in Ukraine? Absolutely. Kick them out, like we did to the Iraqis in Desert Storm. We don’t need to roll all the way to Moscow. Or give them all the weapons they need and keep them bogged down. Keep the objective limited.

But you will find any excuse to do nothing. Any attack on NATO you will pass off as a false flag or some other lame excuse to not get involved. And the longer this goes on the more likely we get pulled in.

We let him get away with blackmailing here, he will continue on. Meanwhile, China is watching this play out. I’d rather not give them an excuse to join in on Putin’s side or go for Taiwan.

I have no problem with holding off jumping in if we can help it. But we need to be prepared for the possibility of stepping in. And to ignore the voices of cowards.


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## Twilight Sky (Feb 19, 2019)

I am just wanting NATO to drive his forces out of Ukraine, not invade Russia which is what he 'supposedly' is afraid of. Yes mostly everyone has their tail tucked between their legs because "mah nukes" but I feel he'd only use them if his country(the mainland) is directly fired upon, otherwise, using them would undermine his plans. Scorched earth is nothing to rule over.


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## Chan Hung (Dec 28, 2011)

Perhaps this may sound crazy but just a small random thought.

I get why wars happen and why many are to takeover land. But in the case of Russia destroying Ukraine (which i am not in favor of), one would think they would want to lessen the destruction of a country they plan to overtake. If they destroy it to rubble, it would be basically many years to clean up and fix back from the ground.


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## Ger (Jul 20, 2018)

Doing that out of memory, so not really accurate, but it is symbolic anyway. Today I saw russian camera team talking with an harmless anti-war woman in public. Police came and arrested her. Another woman talked to the camera right after that, blamed team of doing fake news (only showing one side of opinions blabla) and defended russian policy and asked for giving her opinion to the camera. And she saw the other woman got arrested seconds before! Team said she could say her opinion to the camera... next second she was arrested by police also ...
So always be cautious, which kind of regime you wish for. You could find yourself easily on the other side within seconds.

If someone @GothicBohemian got that scene with english subs, maybe that person can post. Only saw it with german subs so far.



Twilight Sky said:


> That woman with the poster has gone missing..but I guess thats no surprise..
> 
> Also I am of the same thinking as BruiserKC.


So far she was conviced by the old law, which is 30000rubel. But atm they check to process her with new law (since war beginning), which would mean 15 years of prison.



Chan Hung said:


> Perhaps this may sound crazy but just a small random thought.
> 
> I get why wars happen and why many are to takeover land. But in the case of Russia destroying Ukraine (which i am not in favor of), one would think they would want to lessen the destruction of a country they plan to overtake. If they destroy it to rubble, it would be basically many years to clean up and fix back from the ground.


It "would" just look like the regular places in russia, if you let away the model places.


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## CamillePunk (Feb 10, 2011)

BruiserKC said:


> And I have said nothing about attacking Russia directly. Attacking the forces in Ukraine? Absolutely. Kick them out, like we did to the Iraqis in Desert Storm. We don’t need to roll all the way to Moscow. Or give them all the weapons they need and keep them bogged down. Keep the objective limited.
> 
> But you will find any excuse to do nothing. Any attack on NATO you will pass off as a false flag or some other lame excuse to not get involved. And the longer this goes on the more likely we get pulled in.
> 
> ...





Twilight Sky said:


> I am just wanting NATO to drive his forces out of Ukraine, not invade Russia which is what he 'supposedly' is afraid of. Yes mostly everyone has their tail tucked between their legs because "mah nukes" but I feel he'd only use them if his country(the mainland) is directly fired upon, otherwise, using them would undermine his plans. Scorched earth is nothing to rule over.


"We don't want to attack Russia, just the Russian military" is a distinction without a difference. Thank God Joe Biden has more sense than either of you two.


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## Ger (Jul 20, 2018)

CamillePunk said:


> "We don't want to attack Russia, just the Russian military" is a distinction without a difference. Thank God Joe Biden has more sense than either of you two.


You have to differ two main scenarios regarding military intervention: are you going there for fighting back russian troops from Ukraine (different possibilities) or are you going there to free russia from Putin, which would mean attacking russian heartland. So I guess the guys @BruiserKC @Twilight Sky  wanted to make clear, for which of the two scenarios they are, so the people know what they are talking about. If you agree on military intervention in general or not, that is another story again. 
Also ... sorry to say that ... if @Twilight Sky is really from Finland, it is traceable he prefers stopping russia at ukraine and not waiting until they eventually attack Finland. That is a completly different perspective to people sitting in USA. In general, the US people perspective is a tricky thing, because they had no hostile military troops on their country for ages.


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## Ger (Jul 20, 2018)

I found the video without german subs. (English subs for complete video still missing, only found first half, but no reason to post that.)


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1503071814431371265


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## BruiserKC (Mar 14, 2010)

CamillePunk said:


> "We don't want to attack Russia, just the Russian military" is a distinction without a difference. Thank God Joe Biden has more sense than either of you two.





Ger said:


> You have to differ two main scenarios regarding military intervention: are you going there for fighting back russian troops from Ukraine (different possibilities) or are you going there to free russia from Putin, which would mean attacking russian heartland. So I guess the guys @BruiserKC @Twilight Sky wanted to make clear, for which of the two scenarios they are, so the people know what they are talking about. If you agree on military intervention in general or not, that is another story again.
> Also ... sorry to say that ... if @Twilight Sky is really from Finland, it is traceable he prefers stopping russia at ukraine and not waiting until they eventually attack Finland. That is a completly different perspective to people sitting in USA. In general, the US people perspective is a tricky thing, because they had no hostile military troops on their country for ages.


Stuff like this is disgusting. This is what MAGA has become. Full on anti-American. 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1504167055557201925
No one wants nuclear war. But if you allow Putin to have his way, all future aggressors have to do is threaten nuclear conflict to get their way.

The isolationists need to realize we are involved, like it or not.


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## Ger (Jul 20, 2018)

I guess many people are on the "everything shall stay the same road". Especially in the last 10 years I saw that alot. (ofc the phenomenon existed before). Therefore changes in the society, clima change or covid may all not be true. Now we got the russian wars. Talking about is taboo for some people. Everything shall stay the same and the prosperty (for some peeps more for some peeps less) shall go on. And a few people are so afraid (or feed an afraid audience), that they jump on every excuse to avoid facing the situation. Beside, I wrote that before, we also have the anti-west people in the western societies, but many of them got similar motives.


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## GothicBohemian (May 26, 2012)

Since I know some people here do worry about what is happening on the ground in both Ukraine and Russia, I wanted to share some hopeful news.

This is from Telegram, which doesn't embed as a media link here on WF.
24 канал

I took a screenshot using my browser's translation extension so that some of it is legible in English - ignore the wonky translation! The source is a Uranian politician originally from Mariupol, so he probably has decent information on the situation there.










On the negative side, I'm very concerned about what I'm hearing about Russian government requests for information about anti-Russian speech beyond Russia's borders - such as in Finland - not to mention Putin's talk about traitors and a "self-cleansing" of Russian society.


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## BruiserKC (Mar 14, 2010)

I consider China an enemy, much like Russia. I don’t trust either one. But if we can keep China on the sidelines as a result of the conversation between Biden and Xi today, I will consider it a huge diplomatic win. 

China has an interest in keeping us involved long term in Europe so they can potentially look at gaining a stronger footing in Asia and beyond. At the same time, the longer the war goes on, the more the global economy will be rocked. That impacts China’s economy. They could give monetary aid to Russia and help Putin finance his war a little bit longer. It would also provide a boost to the Chinese economy. But giving Russia aid and comfort could lead to secondary sanctions that while potentially not as severe as the ones that are gripping Russia now, it will hurt them and impact what they intend to do long term.


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## Ger (Jul 20, 2018)

BruiserKC said:


> I consider China an enemy, much like Russia. I don’t trust either one. But if we can keep China on the sidelines as a result of the conversation between Biden and Xi today, I will consider it a huge diplomatic win.
> 
> China has an interest in keeping us involved long term in Europe so they can potentially look at gaining a stronger footing in Asia and beyond. At the same time, the longer the war goes on, the more the global economy will be rocked. That impacts China’s economy. They could give monetary aid to Russia and help Putin finance his war a little bit longer. It would also provide a boost to the Chinese economy. But giving Russia aid and comfort could lead to secondary sanctions that while potentially not as severe as the ones that are gripping Russia now, it will hurt them and impact what they intend to do long term.


The goals by China are economic wise, not military wise (except for the all known claims). In the very end China wants to trade and sell their products, while poor russia buys likes nothing. Compared to the EU or the US market, the russian market is a joke. Also China is not really selling that much military products to europe. Europe got their own weapon factories or they buy US stuff, to stay compatible within the NATO. The extra money for example germany pays for military now is lost for china, while the not paid laptops for schools or solar stuff or medical products had been produced in china. So the money China would invest in russian army, China loses twice.


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## Twilight Sky (Feb 19, 2019)

Ger said:


> Also ... sorry to say that ... if @Twilight Sky is really from Finland, it is traceable he prefers stopping russia at ukraine and not waiting until they eventually attack Finland. That is a completly different perspective to people sitting in USA. In general, the US people perspective is a tricky thing, because they had no hostile military troops on their country for ages.


You understand my feelings 100%.

I also want to say Im American, born and raised there, and lived there for 32yrs before I moved to Finland 6 yrs ago. Both countries are very much my homes and I dont want to see neither being attacked, but the possibility of this asshole bringing his bullshit to Finland has me worried. Your perspective changes when youre not in a country that you feel safe in. Letting him just do his own thing is only gonna enable him to go forward to other non NATO countries.

Driving forces out and causing Putin to order a retreat is not the same as driving forces out and then going in to invade Russia and make him launch nukes to defind his homeland. Putin cannot win a ground assault with the combined strength of NATO he knows that.


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## thatonewwefanguy (Feb 6, 2020)

Outlaw91 said:


> You mean Democrats or Republicans, right? Because in the European countries there isn't the same structure like in USA.


Yes, sorry it took me awhile to respond, this thread quit giving me notifications.


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## Mr. King Of Kings (May 16, 2006)

.


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## Twilight Sky (Feb 19, 2019)

GothicBohemian said:


> Since I know some people here do worry about what is happening on the ground in both Ukraine and Russia, I wanted to share some hopeful news.
> 
> This is from Telegram, which doesn't embed as a media link here on WF.
> 24 канал
> ...


Theres quit a few "Russian traitors" here, my Finnish Language teacher was a Russian lol. Putin will get over it. Not every fucking body wants to be under his rule.


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## Art Vandaley (Jan 9, 2006)

By the sounds of it the Russian army invading Ukraine has been incredibly inept. Vehicles in poor condition breaking down, lack of proper supplies and they still don't have air supremacy (this is the problem with having a corrupt strong man dictator in charge, most of the money that was meant to be spent on improving the Russian military went into yachts). They've already lost more soldiers in 3 weeks than the US did in 20 years in Iraq and Afghanistan combined, and have recently suffered a string of defeats in open pitched battles in their attempt to encircle Kiev, so this is far from over for them.

Putin isn't Hitler, he's Mussolini, Russia won't be invading anyone else anytime soon.


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## Ger (Jul 20, 2018)

Alkomesh2 said:


> By the sounds of it the Russian army invading Ukraine has been incredibly inept. Vehicles in poor condition breaking down, lack of proper supplies and they still don't have air supremacy (this is the problem with having a corrupt strong man dictator in charge, most of the money that was meant to be spent on improving the Russian military went into yachts). They've already lost more soldiers in 2 weeks than the US did in 20 years in Iraq and Afghanistan combined, and have recently suffered a string of defeats in open pitched battles in their attempt to encircle Kiev, so this is far from over for them.
> 
> Putin isn't Hitler, he's Mussolini, Russia won't be invading anyone else anytime soon.


I saw a story in our main-TV stations, that meanwhile Putin even fly in militia from Assad in Syria. It is said they 40000 men registred for that and russia wants to use half of them. I guess Putin wants to hold the numbers of infantry losses on russian side low and syrian families cannot make trouble or tell stories in russia. Typical cynical move by him. 
I would not recommend believing the stories of russia being close to defeat, because that is not true. Ukraine got to keep up morale at all costs and they are doing good with that, but this war is not over yet. You cannot except russia blitzing such a big country with 40m people, who are mentally prepared for war since years, within 3 weeks. At the moment I am scared of russian troops catching these volunteers from western countries (UK or US would be worst) and show them on TV to boost the morale of russian troops.


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## FriedTofu (Sep 29, 2014)

Alkomesh2 said:


> By the sounds of it the Russian army invading Ukraine has been incredibly inept. Vehicles in poor condition breaking down, lack of proper supplies and they still don't have air supremacy (this is the problem with having a corrupt strong man dictator in charge, most of the money that was meant to be spent on improving the Russian military went into yachts). They've already lost more soldiers in 2 weeks than the US did in 20 years in Iraq and Afghanistan combined, and have recently suffered a string of defeats in open pitched battles in their attempt to encircle Kiev, so this is far from over for them.
> 
> Putin isn't Hitler, he's Mussolini, Russia won't be invading anyone else anytime soon.


I don't think the issue is corruption sapping away money from upgrading the military. They are still throwing tons of artillery daily at cities and still advancing. The issue is nobody in leadership dared to correct the delusion of grandeur of Putin that they will be greeted as liberators by the majority of Ukrainians instead of fighting a real conflict. Their whole original invasion plan was based on massively wrong intel and they had to course correct on the fly.


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## Art Vandaley (Jan 9, 2006)

Ger said:


> I saw a story in our main-TV stations, that meanwhile Putin even fly in militia from Assad in Syria. It is said they 40000 men registred for that and russia wants to use half of them. I guess Putin wants to hold the numbers of infantry losses on russian side low and syrian families cannot make trouble or tell stories in russia. Typical cynical move by him.
> I would not recommend believing the stories of russia being close to defeat, because that is not true. Ukraine got to keep up morale at all costs and they are doing good with that, but this war is not over yet. You cannot except russia blitzing such a big country with 40m people, who are mentally prepared for war since years, within 3 weeks. At the moment I am scared of russian troops catching these volunteers from western countries (UK or US would be worst) and show them on TV to boost the morale of russian troops.


Agreed that Ukraine isn't close to victory, but at the same time this has already cost Russia so much, both militarily and economically that it'll take them a while to recover, and best possible scenario for them it takes another week, and realistically more like a month to fully occupy Ukraine, and that is if things go well for them, which means they're going to lose a lot more.

Most projections of a Russian invasion of Europe during the cold war predicted they could take most of Europe before the US could get any real troops on the ground. We now know that is a joke.



FriedTofu said:


> I don't think the issue is corruption sapping away money from upgrading the military. They are still throwing tons of artillery daily at cities and still advancing. The issue is nobody in leadership dared to correct the delusion of grandeur of Putin that they will be greeted as liberators by the majority of Ukrainians instead of fighting a real conflict. Their whole original invasion plan was based on massively wrong intel and they had to course correct on the fly.


Dictators promoting based on loyalty rather than talent and surrounding themselves with yes men is another big problem, couldn't argue with that.


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## Ger (Jul 20, 2018)

Alkomesh2 said:


> Agreed that Ukraine isn't close to victory, but at the same time this has already cost Russia so much, both militarily and economically that it'll take them a while to recover, and best possible scenario for them it takes a another week, and realistically more like a month to fully occupy Ukraine, and that is if things go well for them, which means they're going to lose a lot more.
> 
> Most projections of a Russian invasion of Europe during the cold war predicted they could take most of Europe before the US could get any real troops on the ground. We now know that is a joke.
> ...


Cold war is different in that part, that the war had happened in germany and Soviets had dropped chemical bombs and then sent periphery states army first. Also everythign getting destroyed and civil losses had not mattered in western europe for them. In Ukraine at least they have to pretend not going all in with brutality. The longer this war goes, the more they will drop that approach, I guess.
Economic wise that war never made sense, if Ukraine doesn't capitulate within the first few days, because too much stuff gets destroyed and civil people are not in mood to go back to work like nothing happened. The sanctions will hit russia hard, doesn't matter how it runs. In the very end it will just be about Ukraine being back eventually to russian territory and some russian kids can read about that in 20 years in their schoolbooks. I mean look how russia looks nowadays. Putin doesn't care anymore about daily business since a few years, so I doubt russia planed to do any great thing in Ukraine, before even going there.


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## One Shed (Jan 7, 2014)

Biden announced something today about bringing in the nWo to deal with Russia. At least that is what I chose to hear him say when he said New World Order.


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## RealDealNow (May 21, 2021)

Two Sheds said:


> Biden announced something today about bringing in the nWo to deal with Russia. At least that is what I chose to hear him say when he said New World Order.


Yeah, but whose side is he on?


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## wrasslin_casual (May 28, 2020)

Ger said:


> Cold war is different in that part, that the war had happened in germany and Soviets had dropped chemical bombs and then sent periphery states army first. Also everythign getting destroyed and civil losses had not mattered in western europe for them. In Ukraine at least they have to pretend not going all in with brutality. The longer this war goes, the more they will drop that approach, I guess.
> Economic wise that war never made sense, if Ukraine doesn't capitulate within the first few days, because too much stuff gets destroyed and civil people are not in mood to go back to work like nothing happened. The sanctions will hit russia hard, doesn't matter how it runs. In the very end it will just be about Ukraine being back eventually to russian territory and some russian kids can read about that in 20 years in their schoolbooks. I mean look how russia looks nowadays. Putin doesn't care anymore about daily business since a few years, so I doubt russia planed to do any great thing in Ukraine, before even going there.


What a word salad.

Putin's aim for 20 years has been to keep Ukraine neutral and by the sounds of it, Ukraine will no longer be joining NATO as was hoped for .So he has his objectives, it jus trequires those in the Ukrainian government to realise they have lost.


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## Art Vandaley (Jan 9, 2006)

wrasslin_casual said:


> What a word salad.
> 
> Putin's aim for 20 years has been to keep Ukraine neutral and by the sounds of it, Ukraine will no longer be joining NATO as was hoped for .So he has his objectives, it jus trequires those in the Ukrainian government to realise they have lost.


Yes, because Putin's one and only objective in this war was to get Ukraine to declare they wouldn't join NATO and this is an absolute win for him lol

Enjoy your fantasy world where the brutal war criminal dictator you worship hasn't exposed his administration as kleptocratic joke.


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## Ger (Jul 20, 2018)

wrasslin_casual said:


> What a word salad.
> 
> Putin's aim for 20 years has been to keep Ukraine neutral and by the sounds of it, Ukraine will no longer be joining NATO as was hoped for .So he has his objectives, it jus trequires those in the Ukrainian government to realise they have lost.


Stop believing propaganda. Ukraine was not even close to becoming NATO country.


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## wrasslin_casual (May 28, 2020)

Ger said:


> Stop believing propaganda. Ukraine was not even close to becoming NATO country.


 Which propaganda? 

Let's look at the facts and I want you to FACTUALLY discredit what I'm about to say:

1. Ukraine in the 90s declared itself neutral on the West v Russia issue.
2. Russia was bankrupt post Soviet collapse.
3. By early 2000s Russian economy was starting to recover but so was the push for Ukraine to end it's neutrality.
4. By 2014, the Ukrainian regime was removed by a US backed coup and replaced with a pro-Western leader.
5. During this time, there was unrest across Ukraine, increasingly in the Donbas region.
6. Putin reiterated Russia's desire of Ukrainian neutrality, which means: not joining NATO, not joining the EU, not allowing US nuclear warheads placed on Ukrainian soil (as has been the case for several EU/European countries).
7. With the fall of the Ukrainian government and rising violence in Donbas, Russia supported separatists in that region.
8. Crimea was annexed.
9. Minsk agreements 1 & 2 were signed but never upheld by Ukraine. 
10. The US and the EU (along with the UK) pushed for Ukrainian agreement regarding NATO, having already signed a European Union Association agreement which also brings it closer to the EU economic and political market.
11. The above is clearly unacceptable to Russian foreign policy and a clear sign of military and economic aggression not in line with Minsk 1 & 2. 
12. The invasion begins and from the outset the Russians have clearly stated their aims and used their military might to force negotiations. 

Oh and just an aside, the current Ukrainian regime and military is beset by Nazis and Nazi militias such as the Azov battalion and many others.


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## wrasslin_casual (May 28, 2020)

Alkomesh2 said:


> Yes, because Putin's one and only objective in this war was to get Ukraine to declare they wouldn't join NATO and this is an absolute win for him lol
> 
> Enjoy your fantasy world where the brutal war criminal dictator you worship hasn't exposed his administration as kleptocratic joke.


What do you mean by "one and only" objective? 

I a simply stating Russias 20+ years of foreign policy. The country has NATO military and US nuclear weapons aimed directly at it, in fact if you studied basic history you would know why NATO was formed in the first place. Like any sovereign nation it has a right to protect its borders and Ukraine being a militarised nation backed by NATO, EU, US would not make any sense.


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## Art Vandaley (Jan 9, 2006)

wrasslin_casual said:


> What do you mean by "one and only" objective?
> 
> I a simply stating Russias 20+ years of foreign policy. The country has NATO military and US nuclear weapons aimed directly at it, in fact if you studied basic history you would know why NATO was formed in the first place. Like any sovereign nation it has a right to protect its borders and Ukraine being a militarised nation backed by NATO, EU, US would not make any sense.


The US wasn't about to invade Russia.... This was absolute insanity on behalf of Putin, a right to protect your borders doesn't include starting wars by invading other countries ffs.


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## wrasslin_casual (May 28, 2020)

Alkomesh2 said:


> The US wasn't about to invade Russia.... This was absolute insanity on behalf of Putin, a right to protect your borders doesn't include starting wars by invading other countries ffs.


You sound confused. Who said US was going to invade Russia?


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## BruiserKC (Mar 14, 2010)

wrasslin_casual said:


> What do you mean by "one and only" objective?
> 
> I a simply stating Russias 20+ years of foreign policy. The country has NATO military and US nuclear weapons aimed directly at it, in fact if you studied basic history you would know why NATO was formed in the first place. Like any sovereign nation it has a right to protect its borders and Ukraine being a militarised nation backed by NATO, EU, US would not make any sense.


And the invasion of Ukraine shows why NATO is justified in being a buffer against Russian aggression. Russia started this conflict as part of Putin’s desire to recreate a mighty empire for thé Motherland. For years he said Ukraine shouldn’t exist and one of the great tragedies in history is the fall of the Soviet Union. He said in public he wanted neutrality for Ukraine. Behind the scenes, he pushed for this moment.

Anyone who thinks Putin’s intentions are pure haven’t been paying attention or are willfully ignorant.


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## Art Vandaley (Jan 9, 2006)

wrasslin_casual said:


> You sound confused. Who said US was going to invade Russia?





wrasslin_casual said:


> The country has NATO military and US nuclear weapons aimed directly at it


----------



## Ger (Jul 20, 2018)

wrasslin_casual said:


> Which propaganda?
> 
> Let's look at the facts and I want you to FACTUALLY discredit what I'm about to say:
> 
> ...


Sorry mate, but you listed masses of blabla points and there is no excuse to invade Ukraine and kill people there. By the way ... invading Ukraine belong to the dreams of russia becoming "great again". That is for example part of russian scientic books since around 30 years, long time before many your strange excuses happened. You got nazi groups in all countries of the world, including russia. Myself talked with lot of russians in the last 20 years ... none of them was scared of NATO - there is no reason for btw and they said that themself. Jelzin said that also.

*The real problem is something else: we have people in western world, who think in blocks. They give a $"§% about russia, they just want to critisize the west. Why? Because they couldn't adapt to the progress in the societies there. I would feel sorry for them, but if they excuse killing people with that, sorry, that is not tolerable. If you would find similar excuses in russia regarding other issue, they would put you into prison btw.*


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## wrasslin_casual (May 28, 2020)

Ger said:


> Sorry mate, but you listed masses of blabla points and there is no excuse to invade Ukraine and kill people there. By the way ... invading Ukraine belong to the dreams of russia becoming "great again". That is for example part of russian scientic books since around 30 years, long time before many your strange excuses happened. You got nazi groups in all countries of the world, including russia. Myself talked with lot of russians in the last 20 years ... none of them was scared of NATO - there is no reason for btw and they said that themself. Jelzin said that also.
> 
> *The real problem is something else: we have people in western world, who think in blocks. They give a $"§% about russia, they just want to critisize the west. Why? Because they couldn't adapt to the progress in the societies there. I would feel sorry for them, but if they excuse killing people with that, sorry, that is not tolerable. If you would find similar excuses in russia regarding other issue, they would put you into prison btw.*


So you did not respond to a single point I made.

You have been brain washed.


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## wrasslin_casual (May 28, 2020)

You just quoted me, whats up boyo?


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## wrasslin_casual (May 28, 2020)

BruiserKC said:


> And the invasion of Ukraine shows why NATO is justified in being a buffer against Russian aggression. Russia started this conflict as part of Putin’s desire to recreate a mighty empire for thé Motherland. For years he said Ukraine shouldn’t exist and one of the great tragedies in history is the fall of the Soviet Union. He said in public he wanted neutrality for Ukraine. Behind the scenes, he pushed for this moment.
> 
> Anyone who thinks Putin’s intentions are pure haven’t been paying attention or are willfully ignorant.


None of this negates any of what I have posted.


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## Ger (Jul 20, 2018)

wrasslin_casual said:


> So you did not respond to a single point I made.
> 
> You have been brain washed.





wrasslin_casual said:


> None of this negates any of what I have posted.


They are just not even worth taking about, let's take first point:
"1. Ukraine in the 90s declared itself neutral on the West v Russia issue. "

Ukraine was already a zone for themself since over 1000 years ago. Ukraine became already an independent country over 100 years ago. In the 90s there was no west vs. russia issue. In the 90s Helmut Kohl was holding hands with Gorbatschow. Jelzin said poland or ukraine joining NATO is totally fine, beacuse the times of these people having to ask russia for allowance is over. He had not said that, if there was no country name Ukraine existing. Mate, sorry, you just have no clue what you are talking about.
You think it is funny to troll in a thread, where we talk about a war where many people died.


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## BruiserKC (Mar 14, 2010)

wrasslin_casual said:


> None of this negates any of what I have posted.


And we have seen how much has changed since the referendum in 1991 that gave Ukraine their independence. Especially when Putin came to power in the early 2000s and started to push his influence on Ukraine as well as Georgia, Crimea, etc. As he made clear his intentions of reviving the old Soviet Empire, it makes sense that Ukraine is leaning towards the West. And ultimately, it’s up to Ukraine to decide their own fate and the direction they want to go in.


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## Ger (Jul 20, 2018)

I saw that all coming. Here a posting from 4 weeks ago in this very end, which I was banned for. I let out a few smaller ports therefore, but originally posting still in this thread. I already was mentioning girth there, who liked above wrassling_casuals stuff:



Ger said:


> Just listening to Kiew background sound.
> 
> When reading this thread, I see how successful russia and other bad players were with manipulating peeps in other countries. I remember girth repeating russian propaganda in his forum weeks ago, then called me defending nazi germany in wrestling section and days later I am a leftist. ...
> Other guys don't need to be necessary pro-Putin ... if they vote for idiots like Trump and Co for president and do everything to ignore serious manipulations, while making up stories about people from their own country betraying them, then the damage is done.
> ...


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## wrasslin_casual (May 28, 2020)

Ger said:


> They are just not even worth taking about, let's take first point:
> "1. Ukraine in the 90s declared itself neutral on the West v Russia issue. "
> 
> Ukraine was already a zone for themself since over 1000 years ago. Ukraine became already an independent country over 100 years ago. In the 90s there was no west vs. russia issue. In the 90s Helmut Kohl was holding hands with Gorbatschow. Jelzin said poland or ukraine joining NATO is totally fine, beacuse the times of these people having to ask russia for allowance is over. He had not said that, if there was no country name Ukraine existing. Mate, sorry, you just have no clue what you are talking about.
> You think it is funny to troll in a thread, where we talk about a war where many people died.


Either your english is bad or you are plain lying, what is this? "Ukraine was already a zone for themself since over 1000 years ago. Ukraine became already an independent country over 100 years ago."

Ukraine was in the Soviet sphere, it even housed almost half of USSRs nuclear warheads. I'm done talking to you.


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## wrasslin_casual (May 28, 2020)

BruiserKC said:


> And we have seen how much has changed since the referendum in 1991 that gave Ukraine their independence. Especially when Putin came to power in the early 2000s and started to push his influence on Ukraine as well as Georgia, Crimea, etc. As he made clear his intentions of reviving the old Soviet Empire, it makes sense that Ukraine is leaning towards the West. And ultimately, it’s up to Ukraine to decide their own fate and the direction they want to go in.


What of those Ukrainians who are pro-Russian? What about the Ukrainian military, supported by Nazi militias killing people across the Donbas region?


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## Ger (Jul 20, 2018)

wrasslin_casual said:


> Either your english is bad or you are plain lying, what is this? "Ukraine was already a zone for themself since over 1000 years ago. Ukraine became already an independent country over 100 years ago."
> 
> Ukraine was in the Soviet sphere, it even housed almost half of USSRs nuclear warheads. I'm done talking to you.


So we are erasing the history of 40 million people now. Very coarse comment:
Kiewer Rus was not russia. That is the origin of Belarus, Ukraine and Russia. 
And the "soviets" is a thing which you got end of 1922. Russia lost most of their western territories in the peace they made while ww2 and after the middle reiches lost, the countries in that lost zones became independet. You even had Ukraine and Westukrainer. You have had war between Poland and Ukraine! I mean you want to delete history here. Then the sowjets conquered Ukraine. So the Ukraine already existed before your beloved USSR. If you decline that, fine, but then you just said Putin already got legit claim on Lithania, Estonia and Latvia. Why you acknowledge them and not Ukraine? That are NATO countries btw. You want WW3 ?


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## Ger (Jul 20, 2018)

If we follow the logic by @wrasslin_casual , every country can choose any map from history they like. Any country got communists or nazis within their people, so there is a excuse for anyone to conquer any country.


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## Ger (Jul 20, 2018)

wrasslin_casual said:


> ...
> 
> Ukraine was in the Soviet sphere, it even housed almost half of USSRs nuclear warheads. I'm done talking to you.


By the way. Did you forget 1994 and the history of your own country ???
USA and *Great Britian* and *Russia* guaruanted the independence of Ukraine there and therefore Ukraine gave up their nuclear weapons.


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## BruiserKC (Mar 14, 2010)

wrasslin_casual said:


> What of those Ukrainians who are pro-Russian? What about the Ukrainian military, supported by Nazi militias killing people across the Donbas region?


The decision is up to the people of Ukraine. Not Putin. And it’s funny how we have a Jewish president of Ukraine supporting Nazi militas.


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## Ger (Jul 20, 2018)

BruiserKC said:


> The decision is up to the people of Ukraine. Not Putin. And it’s funny how we have a Jewish president of Ukraine supporting Nazi militas.


Don't forget Israel talking with Russia and Ukraine about peace a few days ago. I doubt they would do that, if they would assume Ukraine is ruled by Nazis.


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## wrasslin_casual (May 28, 2020)

BruiserKC said:


> The decision is up to the people of Ukraine. Not Putin. And it’s funny how we have a Jewish president of Ukraine supporting Nazi militas.


Thats plain silly, did Obama being president of the US end racism?


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## BruiserKC (Mar 14, 2010)

wrasslin_casual said:


> Thats plain silly, did Obama being president of the US end racism?


For what Obama wasn’t, I don’t remember him supporting racist militias.


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## FriedTofu (Sep 29, 2014)

FWIW the Ukraine army did work with the Nazis in the area after 2014 Russia annexation of their territory. Desperate times call for desperate measures. But saying there is a Nazi problem in Ukraine is absurd. The US and Russia have a much bigger fascist presence in their leadership if anything.


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## Ger (Jul 20, 2018)

Putin talked about using nuclear weapons to threaten all countries, which don't do the things he likes. That was a taboo since cold war ended. He attacked another country, which russia promised safety to in 1994. I am seriously surprised, that 4 weeks later we got still people here defending Putin. That is the lowest progress of discussion I saw on any social media in the last few days. I already told you guys, why few people defend Putin: they are thinking in blocks and want to critisize the west. They don't really care about russia. (I am not talking about russians, who are ofc in a difficult situation.)
But are these people here really so "uninformed", that they accept all the things Putin is doing? Or do they think it is funny to troll here, while masses of Ukraine civilians got killed and terrorized. By the way ... russia is still doing the bombing in syria.
We told the wrasslin_casual and AthleticGirth often enough in the last few weeks, that eventually they came off the road with their final evaluation of russia's war. So lacking of knowledge should not be the problem anymore. But if that thread just turns now into intentional trolling, while Ukraines die every day and millions of them had to leave the country ... maybe one should think about to stop the discussion, because it becomes cringey/embarrassing/distastul.


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## BruiserKC (Mar 14, 2010)

Ger said:


> Putin talked about using nuclear weapons to threaten all countries, which don't do the things he likes. That was a taboo since cold war ended. He attacked another country, which russia promised safety to in 1994. I am seriously surprised, that 4 weeks later we got still people here defending Putin. That is the lowest progress of discussion I saw on any social media in the last few days. I already told you guys, why few people defend Putin: they are thinking in blocks and want to critisize the west. They don't really care about russia. (I am not talking about russians, who are ofc in a difficult situation.)
> But are these people here really so "uninformed", that they accept all the things Putin is doing? Or do they think it is funny to troll here, while masses of Ukraine civilians got killed and terrorized. By the way ... russia is still doing the bombing in syria.
> We told the wrasslin_casual and AthleticGirth often enough in the last few weeks, that eventually they came off the road with their final evaluation of russia's war. So lacking of knowledge should not be the problem anymore. But if that thread just turns now into intentional trolling, while Ukraines die every day and millions of them had to leave the country ... maybe one should think about to stop the discussion, because it becomes cringey/embarrassing/distastul.





Ger said:


> Don't forget Israel talking with Russia and Ukraine about peace a few days ago. I doubt they would do that, if they would assume Ukraine is ruled by Nazis.


Israel is providing humanitarian aid to Ukraine. They are trying to keep Russia also from potentially egging on Syria and Iran into attacking Israel during all this and ignite a war in the Middle East. 

And trolls are gonna troll..


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## wrasslin_casual (May 28, 2020)

BruiserKC said:


> For what Obama wasn’t, I don’t remember him supporting racist militias.


I thought you were being sarcastic or using the logic the brainwashed are...so just going t oask, were you serious when you said that Ukraine's president supports Nazis?


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## BruiserKC (Mar 14, 2010)

wrasslin_casual said:


> I thought you were being sarcastic or using the logic the brainwashed are...so just going t oask, were you serious when you said that Ukraine's president supports Nazis?


Zelenskyy’s never supported the Nazis and had nothing to do with Nazi militias. Just ridiculous nonsense.


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## Mr. King Of Kings (May 16, 2006)

Two Sheds said:


> Biden announced something today about bringing in the nWo to deal with Russia. At least that is what I chose to hear him say when he said New World Order.


Sometimes I want to go back to the days when the term new world order only made my naive and young self think of pro-wrestling.

In reality it means ''never letting a (created) crisis go to waste'' to further the agenda, to ultimately achieve that desired new world order.


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## Ger (Jul 20, 2018)

Mr. King Of Kings said:


> Sometimes I want to go back to the days when the term new world order only made my naive and young self think of pro-wrestling.
> 
> In reality it means ''never letting a (created) crisis go to waste'' to further the agenda, to ultimately achieve that desired new world order.


The world order changed, because europe was a quiet place for long time. In the 90s the USA interfered in yugoslavia, where much less stuff happened than in Ukraine now. Also Russia threatens now other countries with nuclear weapons and teases that again and again, which is a criminal move by itself. So overall Putin jumped back to a world order from middle of last century. If you want to ignore all that, just to critize Biden, then go for it.

@BruiserKC again exactly what I was talking about. We have no progress in this thread and it is still running in the circle artificially critisizing western countries, totally ignoring what is going on over there.


----------



## wrasslin_casual (May 28, 2020)

BruiserKC said:


> Zelenskyy’s never supported the Nazis and had nothing to do with Nazi militias. Just ridiculous nonsense.


Ah so you were being as silly as I thought.

This claim that Zalansky is supposedly Jewish and thus can't be a supporter or supported by Nazis is, as I said, like claiming because Obama is black racism should no longer exist in the US. What a ridiculous thought process.


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## wrasslin_casual (May 28, 2020)

FriedTofu said:


> FWIW the Ukraine army did work with the Nazis in the area after 2014 Russia annexation of their territory. Desperate times call for desperate measures. But saying there is a Nazi problem in Ukraine is absurd. The US and Russia have a much bigger fascist presence in their leadership if anything.


Why is it absurd?

The Ukraine literally has Nazi militias which bomb an entire region of the country, not a single organisation with this capability exists in the US, UK etc.


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## Mr. King Of Kings (May 16, 2006)

Ger said:


> The world order changed, because europe was a quiet place for long time.


No, we have entered the age of chaos and confusion. Chaos comes before a new world order or the restoration of the old order.



Ger said:


> In the 90s the USA interfered in yugoslavia, where much less stuff happened than in Ukraine now. Also Russia threatens now other countries with nuclear weapons and teases that again and again, which is a criminal move by itself. So overall Putin jumped back to a world order from middle of last century. If you want to ignore all that, just to critize Biden, then go for it.


Bad stuff is happening, no doubt.

But keep in mind that much of what you get to see is theater and propaganda designed to make you beg for the solutions that the global elite have always been hoping for. They're trying to push you in a direction. They've created a bogeyman for you (Putin), and that's where people's entire focus is at. They've got the people completely distracted and within this simple minded bad guy/good guy framework, but life is not a Hollywood movie.



Ger said:


> @BruiserKC again exactly what I was talking about. We have no progress in this thread and it is still running in the circle artificially critisizing western countries, totally ignoring what is going on over there.


It's not about criticizing Western countries. It's about exposing the global elite (think of Soros, Schwab and so on) that are using puppets in countries (whether it's USA, Russia, EU countries etc. doesn't matter) as a vehicle to achieve things.


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## Ger (Jul 20, 2018)

Mr. King Of Kings said:


> It's not about criticizing Western countries. It's about exposing the global elite (think of Soros, Schwab and so on) that are using puppets in countries (whether it's USA, Russia, EU countries etc. doesn't matter) as a vehicle to achieve things.


Okies.
@BruiserKC good luck with this thread, was nice talking with you and a few others.


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## AthleticGirth (Jul 25, 2020)

So according to the liar Ger America was responsible for the Yugoslav wars ? Nothing to do with internal nationalism or the despicable act of Kohl's Germany in 1991 to _" announce its intention to proceed with unilateral diplomatic recognition of the secessionist Yugoslav states of Croatia and Slovenia, unquestionably one of the most precipitous acts in post-Cold War Europe. With it the Bonn government in effect renounced the legitimacy of the existing Yugoslav state and pressured other European governments to do the same. Within weeks the Yugoslav federation came apart at every seam, while its civil affairs degenerated into an anarchy of armed violence as convoluted in many respects as the Thirty Years' War. " _

I'm afraid much of where we are today is due to the duplicitous and treacherous machinations and hubris of post unification Germany. Reagan's biggest mistake.


Yesterday's NATO/G7/EU summit went as expected. Zelensky gave an impassioned plea for tanks and planes and in return he was given platitudes, procrastination, posturing, preening and posing. Nothing sums up the West better right now than the absurd Ursula von der Leyen, the EU Commission President, repeatedly claiming " Democracy will defeat Vladimir Putin " - she's the president of over 400 million people and not a single one of them voted for her.

Turkey will still allow Russia to use its air space and allow Visa travel, Russian friendly governments such as Romania and Hungary will block key sanctions such as a total Russian ban from SWIFT, and most damaging of all Germany will make no concessions in their purchasing of Russian gas funding Putin's war machine. Nothing of importance was achieved and in fact it only served to highlight NATO divisions. Moscow and Beijing would have loved what they saw.

I'm afraid we've done Ukraine dirty, their L was guaranteed when the EU effectively dismissed US intelligence prior to the invasion and the window of opportunity to establish a no fly zone was spurned. The Ukrainians are bravely giving their lives to fight Russian aggression but at what point do we reach where the loss of life, destruction of cities and creation of refugees negates what's being fought for ?

Going forward we're in a new cold war, we can't afford to placate the likes of Germany, Hungary and Turkey who play both sides. We can't afford not to take the initiative in Latvia and Moldova and other potential hot spots. That requires strong leadership though, and there wasn't much of that on display in Brussels yesterday.


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## Art Vandaley (Jan 9, 2006)

wrasslin_casual said:


> Ah so you were being as silly as I thought.
> 
> This claim that Zalansky is supposedly Jewish and thus can't be a supporter or supported by Nazis is, as I said, like claiming because Obama is black racism should no longer exist in the US. What a ridiculous thought process.


The equivalent claim that Zelinksy isn't a nazi because he is jewish is that Obama isn't a member of the KKK because he is black.


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## FriedTofu (Sep 29, 2014)

wrasslin_casual said:


> Why is it absurd?
> 
> The Ukraine literally has Nazi militias which bomb an entire region of the country, not a single organisation with this capability exists in the US, UK etc.


Because Russia will have a much bigger Nazi problem if that is the justification for an invasion.

Ukrainian army was relying on locals who were willing to fight back against Russian invaders. Desperate measures in fighting against foreign invaders. Sort of like how Putin recruited thugs in his own region into his armed forces. Ukraine gave their local Nazis official recognition, Putin gave his thugs their own region to rule over. Both are equally problematic. So to say Ukraine has a bigger Nazi problem is absurd when Putin is not against using Nazis for his own personal gain.

Your larping as a tankie is really getting old. You are not a serious person in this discussion.


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## Ger (Jul 20, 2018)

AthleticGirth said:


> So according to the liar Ger America was responsible for the Yugoslav wars ? ...


And I said that were above? Since when interfering means being responsible for that whole war? And then you call me liar here. I stopped reading then, because that goes obvisouly out of control here.


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## BruiserKC (Mar 14, 2010)

Mr. King Of Kings said:


> No, we have entered the age of chaos and confusion. Chaos comes before a new world order or the restoration of the old order.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No, it’s about criticizing the West. And pacifist, anti-war nonsense. You are hoping that Russia will get what it wants and go away. It’s not. Eventually you will have to deal with him. I would prefer to deal with him now then when he has built momentum. 



AthleticGirth said:


> So according to the liar Ger America was responsible for the Yugoslav wars ? Nothing to do with internal nationalism or the despicable act of Kohl's Germany in 1991 to _" announce its intention to proceed with unilateral diplomatic recognition of the secessionist Yugoslav states of Croatia and Slovenia, unquestionably one of the most precipitous acts in post-Cold War Europe. With it the Bonn government in effect renounced the legitimacy of the existing Yugoslav state and pressured other European governments to do the same. Within weeks the Yugoslav federation came apart at every seam, while its civil affairs degenerated into an anarchy of armed violence as convoluted in many respects as the Thirty Years' War. " _
> 
> I'm afraid much of where we are today is due to the duplicitous and treacherous machinations and hubris of post unification Germany. Reagan's biggest mistake.
> 
> ...


The United States is offering natural gas to the European market so it can wean itself off of Russian oil. And if you take that market away from Russia, it starves them even further and allows Europe to break further away. 

As for Yugoslavia, they try to mesh rival peoples with hundreds of years of prior history and you knew it wasn’t going to go well. So it was a matter of time before it imploded. 



FriedTofu said:


> Because Russia will have a much bigger Nazi problem if that is the justification for an invasion.
> 
> Ukrainian army was relying on locals who were willing to fight back against Russian invaders. Desperate measures in fighting against foreign invaders. Sort of like how Putin recruited thugs in his own region into his armed forces. Ukraine gave their local Nazis official recognition, Putin gave his thugs their own region to rule over. Both are equally problematic. So to say Ukraine has a bigger Nazi problem is absurd when Putin is not against using Nazis for his own personal gain.
> 
> Your larping as a tankie is really getting old. You are not a serious person in this discussion.


Don’t forget Russia is now recruiting Chechens and Syrians to help.


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## FriedTofu (Sep 29, 2014)

BruiserKC said:


> No, it’s about criticizing the West. And pacifist, anti-war nonsense. You are hoping that Russia will get what it wants and go away. It’s not. Eventually you will have to deal with him. I would prefer to deal with him now then when he has built momentum.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hey as long as they are not Nazis it isn't a problem for Tankies.


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## Mr. King Of Kings (May 16, 2006)

BruiserKC said:


> No, it’s about criticizing the West.


It isn't, because I clearly told you why it isn't.



BruiserKC said:


> And pacifist, anti-war nonsense.


Do you have any idea what you're pretty much begging for, page after page? Do you understand the consequences? You can play this tough guy act on the internet, but life is not a Marvel movie where you have to have a hero and a bully. So yes, I'm anti-war. Any sensible person is anti-war.

Both sides produce lies and propaganda. So it's better to use common sense and try to see the bigger picture here, and find out who really benefits from all this. Don't become an emotional wreck who is out for blood.


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## BruiserKC (Mar 14, 2010)

Mr. King Of Kings said:


> It isn't, because I clearly told you why it isn't.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


For years folks like you shit on the West. We aren’t perfect by any means, I won’t deny that. But in this case we aren’t the bad guys here. This is not a “both sides” issue. Putin is the aggressor. He picked a fight and started this war. He gave the signals for years. You chose to ignore them. Whether it was naïveté or willingly, I don’t care.

The world is Marvel most of the time. Sometimes it’s DC. This is a DC situation. Putin is the enemy. If Ukraine can defeat Russia by themselves, great. But if they lose, Russia will push forward. They will not stop. We will have to stop him. It might come down to force to do it. If it reaches that point, do we have the courage to do what is right?

I’m anti-war also. But I’m one of the very few on this site that has seen war close up and understand what it entails. Sometimes, it is necessary. People like you never want to fight ever. It’s easier to blame America. Sometimes, you have to hit the bully to get them to stop.

That’s the bottom line. I understand what is at stake. I understand the consequences of acting now versus acting later where the stakes are higher. You don’t.


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## Twilight Sky (Feb 19, 2019)

I just hold my tongue the best I can but Im telling you straight up, Biden is pissing me the hell off. I don't know if he realizes he likes to rub it in that he wont send troops to Ukraine because he sure likes to say that. Im tired of hearing how powerful and unified NATO is and how Russia better not think twice about fighting a NATO country. Like the fuck does it help Ukraine, to gloat like that? They are the ones that need the help.


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## Ger (Jul 20, 2018)

Twilight Sky said:


> I just hold my tongue the best I can but Im telling you straight up, Biden is pissing me the hell off. I don't know if he realizes he likes to rub it in that he wont send troops to Ukraine because he sure likes to say that. Im tired of hearing how powerful and unified NATO is and how Russia better not think twice about fighting a NATO country. Like the fuck does it help Ukraine, to gloat like that? They are the ones that need the help.


And why you liked above a posting, where someone called me liar? I am curious.
Be happy it is Biden and not Trump.


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## AthleticGirth (Jul 25, 2020)

Much of Biden's rhetoric the past two days has been for a domestic US audience. 

Just a glance at the papers in Warsaw, Ljubljana, Vilnius etc proves NATO isn't united. Zelensky singled out Orban and Macron during the EU summit for criticism, Orban for his ties to Moscow and Macron for his scepticism towards EU accession for Ukraine and opposition to NATO supplying heavy weapons. This has largely gone unreported.

It's the major problem NATO faces, so many independent agendas across the members instead of being united in a common purpose. Macron would see Ukraine burn if it meant he got a second term in office I have nothing against Orban's domestic policies or the chaos he causes for the EU, that's up to the Hungarian people who vote for him, but a country governed by a party like Fidesz can't be allowed to continue to be in NATO - who knows what intel is being shared with the Kremlin. We've had NATO member states block the transport of weapons to Ukraine through their borders, that's just not acceptable.


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## Ger (Jul 20, 2018)

AthleticGirth said:


> Much of Biden's rhetoric the past two days has been for a domestic US audience.
> 
> Just a glance at the papers in Warsaw, Ljubljana, Vilnius etc proves NATO isn't united. Zelensky singled out Orban and Macron during the EU summit for criticism, Orban for his ties to Moscow and Macron for his scepticism towards EU accession for Ukraine and opposition to NATO supplying heavy weapons. This has largely gone unreported.
> 
> It's the major problem NATO faces, so many independent agendas across the members instead of being united in a common purpose. Macron would see Ukraine burn if it meant he got a second term in office I have nothing against Orban's domestic policies or the chaos he causes for the EU, that's up to the Hungarian people who vote for him, but a country governed by a party like Fidesz can't be allowed to continue to be in NATO - who knows what intel is being shared with the Kremlin. We've had NATO member states block the transport of weapons to Ukraine through their borders, that's just not acceptable.


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## AthleticGirth (Jul 25, 2020)

Thin skinned Ger getting upset like a little baby when I tell the truth about Germany yet uses a picture of a Ukrainian who boxed mostly in Germany in his avatar who shamed them by saying this _“There is huge disappointment in Ukraine that the federal German government is sticking to Nord Stream 2. That it does not want to supply defence weapons and at the same time prevents states like Estonia from supplying us with weapons,”

“This is failure to provide assistance and *betrayal *of friends in a dramatic situation in which our country is threatened by Russian troops from several borders.”_


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## Ger (Jul 20, 2018)

AthleticGirth said:


> Thin skinned Ger getting upset like a little baby when I tell the truth about Germany yet uses a picture of a Ukrainian who boxed mostly in Germany in his avatar who shamed them by saying this _“There is huge disappointment in Ukraine that the federal German government is sticking to Nord Stream 2. That it does not want to supply defence weapons and at the same time prevents states like Estonia from supplying us with weapons,”
> 
> “This is failure to provide assistance and *betrayal *of friends in a dramatic situation in which our country is threatened by Russian troops from several borders.”_



Germany never promised Ukraine their indepence, but UK did in 1994 and made them losing their nuclear weapons this way. Good job, pal.


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## AthleticGirth (Jul 25, 2020)

Ger said:


> Germany never promised Ukraine their indepence, but UK did in 1994 and made them losing their nuclear weapons this way. Good job, pal.


Whataboutism.

Ukraine became independent in 1991, I remember when there was all those human chains both there and in the Baltics. The majority of people living in Ukraine voted for independence instead of joining the CIS (which you'll remember played in Euro 92 in Sweden), including 56% in Crimea which is an uncomfortable truth for Putin.

As for your wider point I agree with you. The US and UK were the west's signatories on the Budapest Memorandum of 1994 which oversaw Ukraine's nuclear non-proliferation, all five members of the UN Security Council were guarantors of Ukrainian sovereignty - the problem being Russia and China are two of the five. There's nothing specific in Budapest to obligate the US and UK to undertake military action, but the fact that Russia was allowed to annex Crimea in 2014 with little international opposition has in large part created the situation we're now in. Ukraine was badly let down and disgracefully both Obama and David Cameron wanted to strengthen Russian ties post 2014.


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## Ger (Jul 20, 2018)

AthleticGirth said:


> Whataboutism.
> 
> Ukraine became independent in 1991, I remember when there was all those human chains both there and in the Baltics. The majority of people living in Ukraine voted for independence instead of joining the CIS (which you'll remember played in Euro 92 in Sweden), including 56% in Crimea which is an uncomfortable truth for Putin.
> 
> As for your wider point I agree with you. The US and UK were the west's signatories on the Budapest Memorandum of 1994 which oversaw Ukraine's nuclear non-proliferation, all five members of the UN Security Council were guarantors of Ukrainian sovereignty - the problem being Russia and China are two of the five. There's nothing specific in Budapest to obligate the US and UK to undertake military action, but the fact that Russia was allowed to annex Crimea in 2014 with little international opposition has in large part created the situation we're now in. Ukraine was badly let down and disgracefully both Obama and David Cameron wanted to strengthen Russian ties post 2014.


Ignores the fact, that UK made Ukraine defenseless and we are all in that situation now. And you are right, in 2014 UK already let Ukraine hang there, not keeping your promise from 1994. Shame on you.
Btw ... germany spent Ukraine in the last few years 1.800.000.000€, because UK failed helping in 2014. You can add another 50% via EU transfer. Therefore Ukraine is able to defend. How much did UK spent? I mean except the garbage material sent in the last few days before the war, to provoke Russia even more. Ofc no soldiers were then sent and the promise by UK for Ukraine independence was broken once more. Shame on you!
People like you personally only try to split western world, so that your beloved Putin profits from it. Shame on you!!


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## wrasslin_casual (May 28, 2020)

FriedTofu said:


> Because Russia will have a much bigger Nazi problem if that is the justification for an invasion.
> 
> Ukrainian army was relying on locals who were willing to fight back against Russian invaders. Desperate measures in fighting against foreign invaders. Sort of like how Putin recruited thugs in his own region into his armed forces. Ukraine gave their local Nazis official recognition, Putin gave his thugs their own region to rule over. Both are equally problematic. So to say Ukraine has a bigger Nazi problem is absurd when Putin is not against using Nazis for his own personal gain.
> 
> Your larping as a tankie is really getting old. You are not a serious person in this discussion.


I don't think Putin's government has recruited nazis. The Ukrainian Nazis militias have been attacking Donbas since 2014. This makes no sense kid.


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## Ger (Jul 20, 2018)

wrasslin_casual said:


> I don't think Putin's government has recruited nazis. The Ukrainian Nazis militias have been attacking Donbas since 2014. This makes no sense kid.


Just because you think something, that doesn't make it automatcally correct or fits the situation. Donbas belongs to Ukraine. You cannot defend russia putting theirs hand on this with assymetric wars in the last few years, because you find a few militias there you don't like. With this kind of argument you could defend any war, which breaks the law of nations. So crimea was also occupied by Nazis or what was your defence here?

Maybe you guys noticed, that I stopped talking about the war itself, the actual developments etc, because it is not possible anymore in this thread. We got people doing Putin's business here. If they are really believing all their stuff or just do it for trolling, that doesn't make a difference.


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## FriedTofu (Sep 29, 2014)

wrasslin_casual said:


> I don't think Putin's government has recruited nazis. The Ukrainian Nazis militias have been attacking Donbas since 2014. This makes no sense kid.


His government simply follow the same fascist methodology and using the same justifications as Nazis in starting conflicts. I really hope you are a kid trying to be edgy because this is just utterly embarrassing.



Twilight Sky said:


> I just hold my tongue the best I can but Im telling you straight up, Biden is pissing me the hell off. I don't know if he realizes he likes to rub it in that he wont send troops to Ukraine because he sure likes to say that. Im tired of hearing how powerful and unified NATO is and how Russia better not think twice about fighting a NATO country. Like the fuck does it help Ukraine, to gloat like that? They are the ones that need the help.


Biden is saying it to push back against American media that is pushing for an escalation of the war. The West have done everything besides putting troops on the ground and actively participating in the war. It helps Ukraine by giving the West an excuse to keep providing expensive arms and equipment to Ukraine to counter the Russian armor and superior air force. Wars are expensive and one reason Ukraine is holding up better than expected is the amount of military aid pouring in from the West. Just Biden insulting Putin has some worried it could escalate the conflict, a non-answer to deploying troops will be much worse.


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## CamillePunk (Feb 10, 2011)

We must figure out who the real Nazis are at once so that we can determine who represents Good and who represents Evil in this conflict. That's how they do it in the movies you know!


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## wrasslin_casual (May 28, 2020)

FriedTofu said:


> *His government simply follow the same fascist methodology and using the same justifications as Nazis in starting conflicts. I really hope you are a kid trying to be edgy because this is just utterly embarrassing.*


So by your definition Blair, Bush, Obama, Trump and now Biden, along with Johnson, Cameron and May are all Nazis for either starting or continuing wars and the bombings of several other countries, not to mention the murder of heads of state. Is that correct?


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## Ger (Jul 20, 2018)




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## BruiserKC (Mar 14, 2010)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1507771865682509824

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1507775245654142987

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1507796778464296973
Yes, Biden spoke off script. In 1987, Reagan went off script when he asked Gorbachev one simple request. 






Reagan was right back then. Biden is right now. 

This nonsense of “both sides” doesn’t apply here. Russia and Putin are the aggressors. Ultimately, Russia’s fate depends on Putin and whether he stays in charge. He will need to be out of power. It’s that simple.


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## FriedTofu (Sep 29, 2014)

wrasslin_casual said:


> So by your definition Blair, Bush, Obama, Trump and now Biden, along with Johnson, Cameron and May are all Nazis for either starting or continuing wars and the bombings of several other countries, not to mention the murder of heads of state. Is that correct?


By my definition, elements of the West leadership can be labeled Nazis, but it wouldn't apply to said individuals you listed. The West often resort to using the tried and tested "freedom" as an excuse instead. Unlike Putin who has used similar Nazi-like reasons such as reclaiming former land, denying the existence of others, and purifying others as justification for a naked landgrab. 

Nice attempt at whataboutism to deflect the blame from your cult of personality Tankie hero. Ignoring that Putin has harbored Nazis from the West escaping prosecution too. The notion of denazification as justification to invade is a fraud. Just like the fake WMD excuse from America to invade Iraq 2 decades ago. Everybody knows those were fake excuses. Well everybody except wannabe edgelords like you.


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## wrasslin_casual (May 28, 2020)

FriedTofu said:


> By my definition, elements of the West leadership can be labeled Nazis, but it wouldn't apply to said individuals you listed. The West often resort to using the tried and tested "freedom" as an excuse instead. Unlike Putin who has used similar Nazi-like reasons such as reclaiming former land, denying the existence of others, and purifying others as justification for a naked landgrab.
> 
> Nice attempt at whataboutism to deflect the blame from your cult of personality Tankie hero. Ignoring that Putin has harbored Nazis from the West escaping prosecution too. The notion of denazification as justification to invade is a fraud. Just like the fake WMD excuse from America to invade Iraq 2 decades ago. Everybody knows those were fake excuses. Well everybody except wannabe edgelords like you.


Whataboutism is sometimes justified, you and many others like you are trying to act as if what has happened is unheard of while the brutality your leaders imposed on other nations around the world is far worse. In fact, from a historical, political point of view, Russia has more justifiable reasons for invading Ukraine than the US/UK/Euro allies did for invading Iraq or Afghanistan, not to even mention destabilising Syria, Libya, Tunisia, Egypt.


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## FriedTofu (Sep 29, 2014)

wrasslin_casual said:


> Whataboutism is sometimes justified, you and many others like you are trying to act as if what has happened is unheard of while the brutality your leaders imposed on other nations around the world is far worse. In fact, from a historical, political point of view, Russia has more justifiable reasons for invading Ukraine than the US/UK/Euro allies did for invading Iraq or Afghanistan, not to even mention destabilising Syria, Libya, Tunisia, Egypt.


Whataboutism is a deflection tactic. You are admitting you cannot justify your position by saying your whataboutism is justified. lmao


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## AthleticGirth (Jul 25, 2020)

Interesting short video covering the relative success of Ukraine's air force. The Russian's tactics are rigidly bespoke whilst the Ukrainians are using adapted techniques combining their SOVIET era knowledge and the training they received post 2014 from the likes of the Royal and US Air Forces. 






It's frustrating there isn't a unified will on our side to supply the Ukrainians with the MiGs and F16s they keep requesting.


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## FriedTofu (Sep 29, 2014)

AthleticGirth said:


> Interesting short video covering the relative success of Ukraine's air force. The Russian's tactics are rigidly bespoke whilst the Ukrainians are using adapted techniques combining their SOVIET era knowledge and the training they received post 2014 from the likes of the Royal and US Air Forces.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think another crucial factor is Ukraine is working with equipment they are very familiar with. Newer fighter planes might not be an advantage for Russian forces if the trainers are not as familiar with it as previous models and producing pilots that are not confident in operating them. I read somewhere that the many of the Russian planes are not using precision guided missiles and relying on traditional 'dumb' bombs for either costs or capability reasons. Kinda defeat the purpose of a more modern type of aircraft if they have to fly like older models.


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## AthleticGirth (Jul 25, 2020)

A big power move from Putin threatening to cut off gas exports unless the payment is in roubles. This will be in breach of agreed contracts, but these are the least of Russia's recent crimes. Germany's left wing government are claiming they'll resist the threats and use existing reserves as well as to introduce national campaigns to encourage power consumption. We'll see how that goes, Germany hasn't been a particularly reliable ally to the West this past two months. The situation is now crystal clear however, buying Russian gas will keep funding the invasion.


The reported atrocities and crimes against Ukrainian civilians are mounting up. On the outskirts of the besieged cities civilians are at the mercy of ill disciplined, poorly paid, vodka sodden Russian soldiers. The greater the volume of the atrocities the greater the pressure ratchets up in the places that matter, Washington, Ottawa, London and Paris, to respond. We need to give the Ukrainians the tanks and planes they are begging for.


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## FriedTofu (Sep 29, 2014)

Not liking the tone of Russia threatening to weaponize food supply, especially for their neighbors that import most of their wheat from either Ukraine or Russia. Rumors of Russia destroying food warehouses before withdrawing aren't helping. I guess sanctions go both ways, but it sucks that ordinary folks everywhere are going to be hurt by this, even if it is only economically compared to Ukrainians losing their home and lives. Screw Putin and his delusion of grandeur.


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## Jets4Life (Aug 20, 2012)

The "fuck you Russian Naval Ship" has been hit by Ukrainian missiles. The ship became famous after a viral video surfaced 6 weeks ago of a defiant regiment of the Ukraine told the ship where to go. Today, "The Moskva," Russia's largest Naval ship was hit by two Ukrainian missiles, and has sunk. 510 Russians are missing, and presumed dead.

This could be the most damaging event of the war so far...


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## AthleticGirth (Jul 25, 2020)

Apparently the missiles that did the damage to the warship were Ukrainian developed and called 'Neptunes'. We've just had the 40th anniversary of the Falklands war and the sinking of HMS Sheffield and the Belgrano had profound effects on both sides. Russia and Putin will be feeling this.

Zelensky was interviewed by the BBC earlier. He seemed in good confident spirits, but you can tell his pain when discussing the atrocities being carried out against his people and his anger and annoyance at the EU for propping up Russia's war spend.

The perverse reality is since the start of the war the EU has paid Russia over €40 million for gas compared to just €1 million in loans to Ukraine, even their foreign affairs commissioner Josep Borrell shamed them in their parliament over this fact. Macron, despite the evidence, even contradicted Biden by saying the Russians aren't committing genocide.


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## IpostHIGH (Feb 5, 2017)

Irish Jet said:


> Hopefully when the Russians nuke the Brits off the map they’ll be considerate enough to try and spare Ireland the worst of the fallout. Post apocalyptic life seems like an adventure that I don’t want to miss.
> 
> Let’s get this party started!



Damn, nearly 3 months later, the possibility of it happening is at its highest.


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## FriedTofu (Sep 29, 2014)

A couple of Russian propagandists on state TV even said "we are all gong to die someday" to try to rationalize a nuclear war. Wouldn't be too serious about it but it is still scary and hilarious at the same time.


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## ShadowAngel (11 mo ago)

FriedTofu said:


> Wouldn't be too serious about it but it is still scary and hilarious at the same time.


I don't think it's hilarious, but i also srtongly doubt they gonna use nukes. Maybe small tactical nukes when they get really desperate in the Ukraine, but the russians know they will get obliterated just the same if they go through with plans like nuking the UK or Poland. 

Nukes are pretty much the sole reason, the russians haven't invaded western europe. They had those plans running since 1945 (back then they halted them after the USA nuked Japan), in kinda response to the UK "Operation Unthinkable", in 1957 the NATO assumed another planned invasion, leading to "Operation Dropshot" being put in play and in the 70's the russians actually had a full-fledged plan about how to invade western europe and what cities to nuke (The "7 days to the River Rhine" plan, that later got expanded to "9 days to Lyon") and they always halted because of the nuclear threat. 
I also think that Chernobyl teached them something more about radiation and that it doesn't go away after 5 minutes.

I think what will ultimately happen is a rethreat by the russians in a couple months, like they did in 1996 with the first Chechen War. They'll see they can't win. If numbers are correct, in these 3 months they lost nearly as many soldiers (close to 14,000) as they lost in the 9 years of the afghanistan war genocide in the 80's. 
But just like Chechnya, the will probably attempt it again in a few years or maye then they go out in a blaze of glory and start a full blown war against their perceived "enemies". (It's interesting that their narrative changed from "There are nazis in Ukraine!" (which was also bullshit, let alone with the fact, that the russian even sent an entire nazi troop to the Ukraine thesmself) to "We do this to stop the Nato and American dominance"


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## wrasslin_casual (May 28, 2020)

FriedTofu said:


> *Not liking the tone of Russia threatening to weaponize food supply,* especially for their neighbors that import most of their wheat from either Ukraine or Russia. Rumors of Russia destroying food warehouses before withdrawing aren't helping. I guess sanctions go both ways, but it sucks that ordinary folks everywhere are going to be hurt by this, even if it is only economically compared to Ukrainians losing their home and lives. Screw Putin and his delusion of grandeur.


Just wondering what country you're from?


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## Jets4Life (Aug 20, 2012)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1559425122825654272
Nice to see Ukrainians strike deep into Russian territory. Russians are leaving the Crimea in droves.


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## BruiserKC (Mar 14, 2010)

Jets4Life said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1559425122825654272
> Nice to see Ukrainians strike deep into Russian territory. Russians are leaving the Crimea in droves.


This is how it’s done. Take the fight to them and make Russia feel the pain. I compare it to the “Thirty Seconds Over Tokyo” raid in WW2. It sent a message that we could strike anytime we wanted and no one was safe.


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## Ger (Jul 20, 2018)

Jets4Life said:


> Nice to see Ukrainians strike deep into Russian territory. Russians are leaving the Crimea in droves.





BruiserKC said:


> This is how it’s done. Take the fight to them and make Russia feel the pain. ... It sent a message that we could strike anytime we wanted and no one was safe.


Problem is, that this is not being russian territory. The people living on Crimea were 8 years ago Ukrainians as well. I had preferred Ukraine army wins in the many other territories with already existing fighting zones and evacuated people and wins back Crimea at the green table at the end. We will see it, how that will develop. Maybe they stay with saboting supply buildings there.


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## FriedTofu (Sep 29, 2014)

Nice to read up on the older posts and see the usual conspiracy nutjobs having all the wrong takes yet again. The anti-Semitism from one particular poster can't help but leak out without prompt again.


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## Ger (Jul 20, 2018)

FriedTofu said:


> Nice to read up on the older posts and see the usual conspiracy nutjobs having all the wrong takes yet again. The anti-Semitism from one particular poster can't help but leak out without prompt again.


If there is anti-semitism, then you should report it. This is not Rants. I was already banned, when critisizing the "handling" of some statements, therefore I hold back talking about reporting something in this thread or mentioning problems. If there was something to report, I already did when it happened. Good luck!


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## validreasoning (Jul 4, 2012)

Ger said:


> Problem is, that this is not being russian territory. The people living on Crimea were 8 years ago Ukrainians as well. I had preferred Ukraine army wins in the many other territories with already existing fighting zones and evacuated people and wins back Crimea at the green table at the end. We will see it, how that will develop. Maybe they stay with saboting supply buildings there.


Actually no many Ukrainians left Crimea and were replaced by Russian siberians. Piece on it here from 2018 https://www.rferl.org/a/russia-accu...xed-crimea-demographics-ukraine/29262130.html


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## Ger (Jul 20, 2018)

validreasoning said:


> Actually no many Ukrainians left Crimea and were replaced by Russian siberians. Piece on it here from 2018 Shifting Loyalty: Moscow Accused Of Reshaping Annexed Crimea's Demographics


Many does not mean the majority or all. Also that includes Ukraines taking the russian pass - because they had to - and it includes the crimean tartars, which are everything, but not russian loyalists. They were already deported under Stalin.


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## Dickhead1990 (Aug 31, 2016)

I'm surprised that we haven't put "special military operation" as an option for the title lol.

Do how about that Russian McDonald's? Vkusno & tochka! Tasty...period!


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## Lady Eastwood (Jul 10, 2006)

FriedTofu said:


> Nice to read up on the older posts and see the usual conspiracy nutjobs having all the wrong takes yet again. The anti-Semitism from one particular poster can't help but leak out without prompt again.


Where is this (what page, if you can give)/who is this?


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## FriedTofu (Sep 29, 2014)

Ger said:


> If there is anti-semitism, then you should report it. This is not Rants. I was already banned, when critisizing the "handling" of some statements, therefore I hold back talking about reporting something in this thread or mentioning problems. If there was something to report, I already did when it happened. Good luck!





Catalanotto said:


> Where is this (what page, if you can give)/who is this?


It isn't anything explicit to be worthy of a ban. It is this poster can't help but bring up Israel in conspiracy rants about 'elites' controlling the world. Not for the first time around here too.


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## Jets4Life (Aug 20, 2012)

Ger said:


> Problem is, that this is not being Russian territory. The people living on Crimea were 8 years ago Ukrainians as well.


It's technically been Russian territory since 2014, just like the Ukraine was considered Soviet territory for most of the 20th century, or the West Bank is Israeli territory. It may not be recognized by many UN nations, but Russia controls the territory, and thousands of Russians have settled there in the last decade.



> I had preferred Ukraine army wins in the many other territories with already existing fighting zones and evacuated people and wins back Crimea at the green table at the end. We will see it, how that will develop. Maybe they stay with saboting supply buildings there.


That is impossible, if Ukraine wants to win this war outright, or declare an armistice. The Crimea is a very strategically important area, as a main shipping area to the Black Sea and beyond. If the Ukraine can make a push to either cause all the new Russians and the military installations there to withdraw, or outright win the peninsula, it will be the turning point of the war.



validreasoning said:


> Actually no many Ukrainians left Crimea and were replaced by Russian siberians. Piece on it here from 2018 Shifting Loyalty: Moscow Accused Of Reshaping Annexed Crimea's Demographics


It was the Tartars who were the majority of the population for centuries, until they were driven out of Crimea in the late 19th century. The percentage of Ukrainians in Crimea has remained relatively steady until around 10 years ago, at around 25%. Ethnic Russians have been the largest ethnic group there since WW2, and have been settling in Crimea at an alarming rate since 2014.

This will inevitably change if the Ukrainian counter-offense in the Crimea is successful, and judging by the tens of thousands of Russians leaving the Crimea in the last couple of weeks, it will be.


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## Cybergirl (5 mo ago)

Soon Crimea will return to Ukraine.


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## Lady Eastwood (Jul 10, 2006)

Cybergirl said:


> Soon Crimea will return to Ukraine.



Привіт і ласкаво просимо


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## booyakas (Jun 6, 2017)

i thought moscow will host eurovision


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## FriedTofu (Sep 29, 2014)

Ukraine’s southern offensive ‘was designed to trick Russia’


Exclusive: Russian forces wrong-footed by attack in Kharkiv region after preparing for offensive in the south




www.theguardian.com





Seems like Ukraine has reclaimed some of the north-east region after Russian forces were sent to prepare for an attack from the South.


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## Lady Eastwood (Jul 10, 2006)




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## Ger (Jul 20, 2018)

Hopefully people don't think "it is done now" and look away. There is still a lot to do.


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## ShadowAngel (11 mo ago)

Ger said:


> Hopefully people don't think "it is done now" and look away.


Why should anybody do that? The war isn't over. Nothing is decided yet. 
I'm amazed at both what Nato and Ukraine accomplished and how badly Russia failed, since realistically, they should've steamrolled Ukraine, but they failed at everything: Strategy, Tactics, Logistics. They made so many mistakes, that it should be compiled into a book titled "How not to to wage War". I'm glad it went this way though. Who knows what those maniacs would've done next if their Blitzkrieg plan had been a success. 

Russia state television is also absurd, they are in total denial, while also pretty much wanting nuclear annihilation of the Ukraine. Margarita Simonyan especially is basically batshit insane.


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## Trivette (Dec 30, 2013)

You will freeze and starve to death so Zelensky can wipe his ass with 100 dollar bills. It's your duty. Do your part. Just 3 more weeks to flatten the curve.


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## BruiserKC (Mar 14, 2010)

Putin is calling for 300,000 conscripts to fight.
And millions of Russians are fleeing to avoid being drafted.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1572588634838290432

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1572591193619574787
And surrender or anything short of being killed in action is now being deemed a criminal offense.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1572283199191154688

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1572592837166010368


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## AthleticGirth (Jul 25, 2020)

Putin's decision to invade Ukraine will go down in the history books as one of the worst tactical decisions by a global leader this century. He honestly thought he could take Kyiv in three days and Russian soldiers would be showered with kisses and flowers as Ukranians treated them as liberators. He was high on his own supply, which is what happens when you surround yourself with sycophants and rely on their intel.

Ukrainian bravery, resolve and expertise coupled with western training and state of the art weaponry has proven too much for the ill disciplined, poorly paid, poorly led and unmotivated Russian army. With Ukrainian momentum being as strong as it is they may well win back Luhansk, Donetsk and Crimea and increase Russia's losses. Putin's sham referendums mean nothing.

Putin and Lukashenko are now barking like dogs in panic, the later may even see civil conflict in his own country. If Russia is to ever regain a seat in the international community there will be a high price to pay, a formal and binding recognition of Ukraine's sovereign borders (as well as other former SOVIET republics), significant nuclear disarmament, an autonomous Kalingrad and an end to the state propaganda poisoning the minds of Russians against the west. Putin's legacy needs to be one of national shame and humiliation.


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## Flairwhoo84123 (Jan 3, 2022)

AthleticGirth said:


> Putin's decision to invade Ukraine will go down in the history books as one of the worst tactical decisions by a global leader this century. He honestly thought he could take Kyiv in three days and Russian soldiers would be showered with kisses and flowers as Ukranians treated them as liberators. He was high on his own supply, which is what happens when you surround yourself with sycophants and rely on their intel.
> 
> Ukrainian bravery, resolve and expertise coupled with western training and state of the art weaponry has proven too much for the ill disciplined, poorly paid, poorly led and unmotivated Russian army. With Ukrainian momentum being as strong as it is they may well win back Luhansk, Donetsk and Crimea and increase Russia's losses. Putin's sham referendums mean nothing.
> 
> Putin and Lukashenko are now barking like dogs in panic, the later may even see civil conflict in his own country. If Russia is to ever regain a seat in the international community there will be a high price to pay, a formal and binding recognition of Ukraine's sovereign borders (as well as other former SOVIET republics), significant nuclear disarmament, an autonomous Kalingrad and an end to the state propaganda poisoning the minds of Russians against the west. Putin's legacy needs to be one of national shame and humiliation.


Why should they disarm their nukes, no matter what one thinks of Putin, this issue is not negioatable by all the Russian factions from the Nationalists and ultra nationalists to the social conservatives to the liberal to the socially liberals to even the westernized Russians in Moscow and St. Petersburg, I agree with the Withdrawing out if Ukraine and so fourth, but I dont want to alienate someone civilian population already kicked while down.


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## AthleticGirth (Jul 25, 2020)

Flairwhoo84123 said:


> Why should they disarm their nukes, no matter what one thinks of Putin, this issue is not negioatable by all the Russian factions from the Nationalists and ultra nationalists to the social conservatives to the liberal to the socially liberals to even the westernized Russians in Moscow and St. Petersburg, I agree with the Withdrawing out if Ukraine and so fourth, but I dont want to alienate someone civilian population already kicked while down.


Then Russia will stay as a pariah excluded from our institutions and banking systems. They can hurtle towards economic ruin polishing their warheads as they sell their natural resources to China, India and Brazil for peanuts. Or alternatively, a future Russian leader can humble himself and offer concessions to the west that equal Russia's contrition. I share your concern about alienating and demonising the Russian people, but they need to be aware of the crimes of their government and be aware their hardships are solely down to their government. 

Russian politicians and state media have threatened to nuke your country and mine, we can't pretend this didn't happen and we can't just kick the can down the road until the threat is made again. I'm in approval of Biden's recent strong rhetoric over this - the threat has been heard and it will be met.


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## ShadowAngel (11 mo ago)

BruiserKC said:


> And surrender or anything short of being killed in action is now being deemed a criminal offense.


That's straight out of Stalin's handbook. During and after World War 2 he saw captured russian soldiers as traitors and threw them in the Gulag (in his mind they should've commited suicide, instead of being taken prisoner) and people who refused to go to war back then were also sentenced. 
So it's neither new nor surprising.

Videos from russian fleeing their country are crazy, Finland gets practically overrun currently. 

I wonder what will happen next. I find it more and more concering that so many "advisors" and tv personalities over there speak openly about nuclear war and even treat it as a good thing. Margarita Simonyan, editor-in-chief of Russia Today tweeted yesterday that this week either marks the eve of imminent victory for russia or nuclear war. 

I said before i don't believe nukes will be launched, since i just can't fathom that anybody could be this stupid, but what is going on over there, with more and more people speak out for it and to destroy the west, i'm not so sure anymore.


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## BruiserKC (Mar 14, 2010)

ShadowAngel said:


> That's straight out of Stalin's handbook. During and after World War 2 he saw captured russian soldiers as traitors and threw them in the Gulag (in his mind they should've commited suicide, instead of being taken prisoner) and people who refused to go to war back then were also sentenced.
> So it's neither new nor surprising.


Soviet Order 270. The Tweet i mentioned it in was a true story. My classmate’s grandfather was submitted to torture and medical experiments by the Nazis at Maidanek. He was hopeful of going home when the Red Army liberated the camp, only to be told by a friend he can’t go home as he’s deemed a traitor.


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## AthleticGirth (Jul 25, 2020)

Nine foreign fighters released by Russian separatists into the custody of Saudi Arabia. 

For them to be surrendering valuable bargaining chips like this suggests they know it's only a matter of time before Ukrainian forces take back their land. Civilian foreign nationals have been murdered and tortured by Russian separatists though, the perpetrators need to face justice.


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## Flairwhoo84123 (Jan 3, 2022)

BruiserKC said:


> Soviet Order 270. The Tweet i mentioned it in was a true story. My classmate’s grandfather was submitted to torture and medical experiments by the Nazis at Maidanek. He was hopeful of going home when the Red Army liberated the camp, only to be told by a friend he can’t go home as he’s deemed a traitor.


Yeah it brutal, and it stuff authortarian regimes in desperate situations do, but from the Ruskies perspective, it got the job done in ww2(along with stalin handing over the duties of general to Zukov, releasing prisoners to fight the war, and relaxing the atheist communist grip on the Russian Orthodox Church to rally Russian Nationalism), I'm thinking Putin desperate looking at himself in the same dire straights, he faces instability, more successionis from regions inside russia, and the end of his regime, let's not forget during the Iran-Iraq war, the shiite Ayatollahs and mullahs sent young boys as young as 12 to the frontline in "martyrdom"(Human waves) against iraqi forces and the war ended in some semblance of a stalemate and Iran holding onto it territory from the Arab sunni iraqis, the vietcong sent people with grenades strapped to then into south vietnamese markets and sent human waves against South Vietnamese and American positions, once Nixon and later ford pulled the plug it was over, and the NVA marched into the south in victory, Hezbollah sent suicide shiite martyrdom(ie -suicide terrorists) against American and french targets in 83 and 84, by 84 the americans and french left, they did the thing against the Israeli occupation in the 15 km occupation zone, by 2000 the Israelis abandoned their SLA allies and fled into Israel.

My point being Originzations , terrorist groups, and Authortarian leaders do desperate attacks when they are exposed to death or overthrow, as crazy as this is, and deplorable as it is, it might turn the tide is putin thinking it hard to stop human wave attacks, if he starts mobilizing into the millions and later tens of millions then it escalates to a point, how much man power to do the Ukrainians have, especially since the early part of the war, Ukranians have fled into Poland, Western Europe and North America.

The best situation is a Paris style conference like what was done to end the vietnam war, invite putin government , zelenski government, the ethnic russian separatists in the donbass, the representatives of NATO, China, Belarus, the EU, and the US to end this conflict , this is a huge distraction from isis, and Al qaeda making a comeback in Afghanistan, Pakistan, the Shael, the Mehreb, and making gains into the HOA, my wife is ethiopian, for example Al shaabab is trying to link up with the OLA-Shane separatist ethnic cleansers, and TPLF marxist terrorists to encroach into Ethiopia, Al-Shaabab is growing in Somalia, has some support in Kenya, it will provide a base to salafi jihadists to attack the west and link up with muslim terrorists of isis and Al qaeda factions in the shael, the Zagreb and the Sahara, giving plenty of room for human trafficking, training camps, money laundering, gaining weapons, and expirence. 

We need to bring a end to the Ukraine issue, and some detente with Russia to concentrate on ISIS and Al qaeda comeback, containment of china and its advances in the Pacific, and aces like the panama canal, and resolving issues like the Kashmir issue before it turns into a nuclear holocayst that would cause a worldwide famine.


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## FriedTofu (Sep 29, 2014)

This is bad news. This mean Russia is in it for the long run instead of giving up.


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## BruiserKC (Mar 14, 2010)

Flairwhoo84123 said:


> Yeah it brutal, and it stuff authortarian regimes in desperate situations do, but from the Ruskies perspective, it got the job done in ww2(along with stalin handing over the duties of general to Zukov, releasing prisoners to fight the war, and relaxing the atheist communist grip on the Russian Orthodox Church to rally Russian Nationalism), I'm thinking Putin desperate looking at himself in the same dire straights, he faces instability, more successionis from regions inside russia, and the end of his regime, let's not forget during the Iran-Iraq war, the shiite Ayatollahs and mullahs sent young boys as young as 12 to the frontline in "martyrdom"(Human waves) against iraqi forces and the war ended in some semblance of a stalemate and Iran holding onto it territory from the Arab sunni iraqis, the vietcong sent people with grenades strapped to then into south vietnamese markets and sent human waves against South Vietnamese and American positions, once Nixon and later ford pulled the plug it was over, and the NVA marched into the south in victory, Hezbollah sent suicide shiite martyrdom(ie -suicide terrorists) against American and french targets in 83 and 84, by 84 the americans and french left, they did the thing against the Israeli occupation in the 15 km occupation zone, by 2000 the Israelis abandoned their SLA allies and fled into Israel.
> 
> My point being Originzations , terrorist groups, and Authortarian leaders do desperate attacks when they are exposed to death or overthrow, as crazy as this is, and deplorable as it is, it might turn the tide is putin thinking it hard to stop human wave attacks, if he starts mobilizing into the millions and later tens of millions then it escalates to a point, how much man power to do the Ukrainians have, especially since the early part of the war, Ukranians have fled into Poland, Western Europe and North America.
> 
> ...


As long as ISIS and Al-Qaeda kill each other and not us I don’t care. And Putin won’t use nukes unless he feels Russia will be invaded. At this point, fight Russia until they are kicked out of Ukraine.


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## ShadowAngel (11 mo ago)

BruiserKC said:


> And Putin won’t use nukes unless he feels Russia will be invaded


But isn't that the case? At least in his mind Crimea is Russia and belongs to them. He did say in his speech that he will use any means necessary if russian-occupied territory is being attacked. That's the case. 

And more and more of those pro-government russians talk about using nukes. On the show 60 Minutes Andrey Gurulyov (member of the russian parliament) made fun of Biden's plea to not use nuclear weapons and host Olga Skabeyeva chimed in saying the Queen's Funeral would've been the perfect moment to nuke the UK, which they see as the "root of all evil". When her co-host mentioned that the UK has nukes too, Gurulyo just laughed and said that they could decimate them in a matter of minutes. When was the last time a country constantly talked about nuking another country as if it was nothing out of the ordinary?

I would find it less concerning if there was a strong opposition, but the UK is a bit in shambles after Johnson resigned and the Queen died, while the USA is ruled by a bunch of senile, incompetent lunatics, who can't even read off a teleprompter or don't even know what country actually got invaded.


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## BruiserKC (Mar 14, 2010)

ShadowAngel said:


> But isn't that the case? At least in his mind Crimea is Russia and belongs to them. He did say in his speech that he will use any means necessary if russian-occupied territory is being attacked. That's the case.
> 
> And more and more of those pro-government russians talk about using nukes. On the show 60 Minutes Andrey Gurulyov (member of the russian parliament) made fun of Biden's plea to not use nuclear weapons and host Olga Skabeyeva chimed in saying the Queen's Funeral would've been the perfect moment to nuke the UK, which they see as the "root of all evil". When her co-host mentioned that the UK has nukes too, Gurulyo just laughed and said that they could decimate them in a matter of minutes. When was the last time a country constantly talked about nuking another country as if it was nothing out of the ordinary?
> 
> I would find it less concerning if there was a strong opposition, but the UK is a bit in shambles after Johnson resigned and the Queen died, while the USA is ruled by a bunch of senile, incompetent lunatics, who can't even read off a teleprompter or don't even know what country actually got invaded.


And for years we have seen American leaders appease Putin. Bush 43, Obama and Trump have all looked the other way in the hopes of getting better relations. Appeasement does not work. Short of actually putting boots on the ground, give the Ukrainians what they need.


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## Flairwhoo84123 (Jan 3, 2022)

BruiserKC said:


> And for years we have seen American leaders appease Putin. Bush 43, Obama and Trump have all looked the other way in the hopes of getting better relations. Appeasement does not work. Short of actually putting boots on the ground, give the Ukrainians what they need.


You want to end the world, then you go there and fight with the Ukranians , ww3 should be off the table, arming the Ukrainians like we have is already pushing the limit, but under stable, putting Wester. boots on the ground in Ukraine, that's insane, why is Ukraine so important you want a nuclear holocaust around the globe? Are you Ukrainan?

Logistical support fine, some arms to the ukranians fine, beefing a presence in Poland and Romania that are already in NATO, fine but boots on the grounds is nuts.


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## BruiserKC (Mar 14, 2010)

Flairwhoo84123 said:


> You want to end the world, then you go there and fight with the Ukranians , ww3 should be off the table, arming the Ukrainians like we have is already pushing the limit, but under stable, putting Wester. boots on the ground in Ukraine, that's insane, why is Ukraine so important you want a nuclear holocaust around the globe? Are you Ukrainan?


So it’s acceptable to just give Putin Ukraine? With an empty promise that he won’t advance further? Ukraine is the first step in Putin’s quest for the revival of the Soviet Union. If he succeeds there, he will move on to Finland, the Baltics, Poland, etc. He will not stop, and eventually we will have no choice but to confront him. 

We’ve listened to the apologists, isolationists, tankies, and Code Pink cowards. Their way hasn’t worked.


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## Flairwhoo84123 (Jan 3, 2022)

BruiserKC said:


> As long as ISIS and Al-Qaeda kill each other and not us I don’t care. And Putin won’t use nukes unless he feels Russia will be invaded. At this point, fight Russia until they are kicked out of Ukraine.


And Putin ain't marching on Washington dc, New York, London, Berlin or Paris, and out if he feels cornered, and the Russian state, culture, religion, language and livelihood was in danger from the west, he might use nukes, feeling we wont stop with Ukraine and may March into Russian territory.


Al qaeda,and ISIS made it clear m, they gave us the warning after 9/11 in OBL declaration, that he invited the west to convert to Islam and to pull out of Muslim lands completely or more attacks are coming, ISIS is even worse as they similar to the takifiris during the time of unrest in islamic history and believe what they are doing is going to bring about the apocalypse, even the lands they took in syria and iraq where in Islamic prophecy about a islamic state that would spread from there during the end times, ISIS has grown in the maghreb, the sub saharan region, Somalia, the shael, Parts of Afghanistan, and Pakistan, still protected by the Neo-Ottoman turks in parts of syria and iraq, so they easily launch wave of attacks against the west from these areas, I would consider the Islamist threat bigger than Russia, because Russia is just carving out its Sphere of influence with Russky mir doctrine, the Islamists want a worldwide caliphate, Phtin carving a sphere of influence, not a worldwide caliphate where sharia, Dhimmi status honor killings, ongoing jihad, jizya taxes, for ed conversions, and dhimmitude rules the day, like the bigger threat the Islamist want for all non-muslims.

And as far as your last post about Puti marching into poland, Finland, the baltics etc. It isnt happening, they are apart of NATO, he knows where lines are drawn, would you blow up the world for Ukraine? What about if North Korea invades the south? What about China invades Taiwan (despite our recognization of the Own China Policy going back to Nixion and recognized by presidents of both parties), if Iran and it allies in parts of Syria, Iraq , South Lebanon, in coordination with the Palestinans in the Gaza Strip and West Bank attack Israel from multiple positions, and China and Russia back the Iranians, the palestinans and their allies, would you risk ww3 for that little piece of land? You seem like hyper onto interventionism and neocon "invade the world, invite the world" doctrine.

We should draw the line In the sand at NATO allies, and historical allies like Japan, not over Ukraine, Taiwan, the Golan Heights, etc.


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## FriedTofu (Sep 29, 2014)

Flairwhoo84123 said:


> You want to end the world, then you go there and fight with the Ukranians , ww3 should be off the table, arming the Ukrainians like we have is already pushing the limit, but under stable, putting Wester. boots on the ground in Ukraine, that's insane, why is Ukraine so important you want a nuclear holocaust around the globe? Are you Ukrainan?
> 
> Logistical support fine, some arms to the ukranians fine, beefing a presence in Poland and Romania that are already in NATO, fine but boots on the grounds is nuts.


It all really depends on the ambitions of Putin. Do you trust him to be satisfied with just taking of Ukraine? Hitler, Mussolini and Stalin all took advantage of the same rhetoric to continue advancing their conquests until they were in direct conflict with the other empires of their time after years of appeasement. And then decided to risk it all by attacking the other powers of the time. Heck, Hitler backstabbed Stalin because neither of them trusted each other to adhere to their pact.

What if Putin get emboldened after Ukraine and do not believe the US will come to the defense of certain NATO countries and continue advancement towards the Baltic states that were formerly forced to join the Soviets? Just like how he got emboldened by the West's lack of response to Crimea before this full scale invasion. Ambitious autocrats do not care about your 'agreements'. He will quote people like you and ask 'why is Estonia so important that you want to risk nuclear war over?' and on and on until they consolidated enough power to be able to make it more costly for you to intervene than before.


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## Flairwhoo84123 (Jan 3, 2022)

FriedTofu said:


> It all really depends on the ambitions of Putin. Do you trust him to be satisfied with just taking of Ukraine? Hitler, Mussolini and Stalin all took advantage of the same rhetoric to continue advancing their conquests until they were in direct conflict with the other empires of their time after years of appeasement. And then decided to risk it all by attacking the other powers of the time. Heck, Hitler backstabbed Stalin because neither of them trusted each other to adhere to their pact.
> 
> What if Putin get emboldened after Ukraine and do not believe the US will come to the defense of certain NATO countries and continue advancement towards the Baltic states that were formerly forced to join the Soviets? Just like how he got emboldened by the West's lack of response to Crimea before this full scale invasion. Ambitious autocrats do not care about your 'agreements'. He will quote people like you and ask 'why is Estonia so important that you want to risk nuclear war over?' and on and on until they consolidated enough power to be able to make it more costly for you to intervene than before.


People like you are why we got bogged down over wmds lies and "democracy building" and killed vietnamese with agent organe after the Gulf of Tonkin lie, and ceded historical Serbian kosovo to Muslim Albanian KLA terrorists, and the organ harvesting Albanian mafia, please let go fourth like the the not so so Great British empire (until it finally had to withdrawl) for more enemies to crush in the name of the fairytale of "democracy".


A troop build up in eastern and central europe is dterence enough without boots on the ground inside Ukraine. Would putin invade Poland or the baltics with Anerican soldiers there, absolutely not. It the Ukranians and the Bush sr/clinton administrations fault Ukraine was forced to give up it nuclear weapons, this mess wouldn't be happening.


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## FriedTofu (Sep 29, 2014)

Flairwhoo84123 said:


> People like you are why we got bogged down over wmds lies and "democracy building" and killed vietnamese with agent organe after the Gulf of Tonkin lie, and ceded historical Serbian kosovo to Muslim Albanian KLA terrorists, and the organ harvesting Albanian mafia, please let go fourth like the the not so so Great British empire (until it finally had to withdrawl) for more enemies to crush in the name of the fairytale of "democracy".


War is ugly and the aftermath is not pretty so why bother to do anything? People like you would be happy to not intervene in WW2. Two can play the same game here. Also. I'm not even using 'democracy' argument here. It is more or less self-preservation here. Appeasement seldom work against autocrats like Putin.

I mean by your logic, the Baltic states are not as important so why would you risk nuclear war over them being invaded right?


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## Flairwhoo84123 (Jan 3, 2022)

FriedTofu said:


> War is ugly and the aftermath is not pretty so why bother to do anything? People like you would be happy to not intervene in WW2. Two can play the same game here. Also. I'm not even using 'democracy' argument here. It is more or less self-preservation here. Appeasement seldom work against autocrats like Putin.
> 
> I mean by your logic, the Baltic states are not as important so why would you risk nuclear war over them being invaded right?


There a difference The baltics are apart of NATo, we are bound to protect them whatever we like it or not, what kind of interventionism are you against? Again if the Russian occupation so bad? Is the spanish occupation ofthe bosque region and Catalonia justified? should the Turks leave Northern Syria, Northern Cyprus and historical Byzantine Greek territories of Constantinople region and Cappadoncia , since it illegal occupation conquered by turkish muslims, should the Zionist Israelis leave the Gaza Strip, West Bank , Shabaa Farms, East Jerusalem, and Golan Heights, and the Jewish settlers back their bags back to Europe, Russia and North America, should China end it ethnic genocidal occupation of Tibet , and Xinjiang, should the British end their occupation of Northern Ireland, and Scotland, allow Irish unification, and Scottish independence, should the us give the South west and California back to Mexico? Should the Azeris give up their occupation of ethnic Christian Armenian Nagrono Karabakh back to Armenia , should the Iranians, Turks, Iraqis, and Syrians cease their occupation of Kurdistan? Why is Ukraine so special, is it because you and Bruiser deep down gave a hatred towards Russian people, culture, literature, religion, view of the world , heritage?

Did the us intervene in the Polish communist martial law of 1981? NO Reagan canceling a trade deal, and covert support of Solidarty was the solution, did Ike intervene in the Hungarian crisis of 1956? No he upped the ante of cultural engagement, use the bully pulpit to condemn the attack and canceled trade deal, and targeted sanctions, Did JFK go to war over the Berlin wall crisis of 1961? No he gave a speech about us all being berliners, despite the issues of the time didnt Nixon open up China and did detente with the Soviets? Did Truman start a war over the Beelin blockcade? No he did the Berlin airlift , which won the people hearts and minds over to outside, and he implemented the containment doctrine (not the end the world with nukes doctrine like some keyboard warriors here would like), did Ford go to war over the NOrth Korean attack over the tree incident in 76? No he showed milltary show of power and used back channel means to send a message, he didnt go balls out like some here want, did Bush Sr(despite my disagreement with the Gulf war, he handled it good) go marching into baghdad in 91? No he didnt put boots on the ground for that? Nope , but somewhere believe war and boots on the ground because they hate the russian people as the first option , and not the very last option. Sometimes restraint , while being strong is the most prudent message to a adversary, Putin is a autocrat but he no Stalin or Hitler, if that was the case he would of wiped out the liberal modernist opposition in Moscow (muscovites), and St Petersburg years ago, and would set up camps years ago, the Russian people until the last two years, starting with the covid restrictions mess, loved putin for his stance against the oligarch excesses, and privization of the Yeltsin years, the yeltsin massacre of the shelling of his own parliment, and the humilating defeat in the first chechen war, and the break down in law and order under yeltsin, and the us helping Yeltsin rig the 1996 election, and impose shock capitalism onto the poverty stricken Russian people. Whatever people here like it or not we set up the conditions for a populist nationalist like Putin to seize power, whatever he a thug or not.


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## BruiserKC (Mar 14, 2010)

Flairwhoo84123 said:


> And Putin ain't marching on Washington dc, New York, London, Berlin or Paris, and out if he feels cornered, and the Russian state, culture, religion, language and livelihood was in danger from the west, he might use nukes, feeling we wont stop with Ukraine and may March into Russian territory.
> 
> 
> Al qaeda,and ISIS made it clear m, they gave us the warning after 9/11 in OBL declaration, that he invited the west to convert to Islam and to pull out of Muslim lands completely or more attacks are coming, ISIS is even worse as they similar to the takifiris during the time of unrest in islamic history and believe what they are doing is going to bring about the apocalypse, even the lands they took in syria and iraq where in Islamic prophecy about a islamic state that would spread from there during the end times, ISIS has grown in the maghreb, the sub saharan region, Somalia, the shael, Parts of Afghanistan, and Pakistan, still protected by the Neo-Ottoman turks in parts of syria and iraq, so they easily launch wave of attacks against the west from these areas, I would consider the Islamist threat bigger than Russia, because Russia is just carving out its Sphere of influence with Russky mir doctrine, the Islamists want a worldwide caliphate, Phtin carving a sphere of influence, not a worldwide caliphate where sharia, Dhimmi status honor killings, ongoing jihad, jizya taxes, for ed conversions, and dhimmitude rules the day, like the bigger threat the Islamist want for all non-muslims.
> ...


It’s isolationist and non-interventionist idiocy that keeps getting us here. We went to Kosovo to prevent a full blown war. You wanted to bring the troops home. That’s why the Islamists took hold. Ditto with Afghanistan. Then you whine when “End endless wars” don’t go like you plan.


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## Flairwhoo84123 (Jan 3, 2022)

BruiserKC said:


> It’s isolationist and non-interventionist idiocy that keeps getting us here. We went to Kosovo to prevent a full blown war. You wanted to bring the troops home. That’s why the Islamists took hold. Ditto with Afghanistan. Then you whine when “End endless wars” don’t go like you plan.


Isolationist? Nope, for very limited intervention when it actually matters to the survival of america, yes, and also a realist, not like you a lunatic idealist trying to make the world into your bullshit image, it modern day manifest destiny your pushing.

And kosovo was the west backing the muslim brotherhood affiliated Bosnian Mhujideen (along with the Neo-Ottoman Turks, the Iranian Quds forces, the Whabbi saudis & Qataris, the uk, and al qaeda), and backing the Al qaeda affiliated Islamist KLA, it was the islamists that caused the Yugoslav mess by attacking Serb police forces and check points, it was Germany and usa that tirn a blind eye to your pals to the neonazis of the usa, Germany and Austria going to fight with the Ustasha fascists of Croatia ethnic cleansing the Serbian civilians from Krajina, the whole mess in the Balkans is us and western european policy, when it was for Clintonian "humantarian intervention " not some bullshit "isolationism" in the region. Kosovo was another reason the Russians felt Yeltsin betrayed their little bro the Serb orthodox against Catholic fascist croats and Muslim jihadis Albanians and Bosnians, and Putin and the hardliners came to power (among other reasons), so much for your "knowing history"


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## AthleticGirth (Jul 25, 2020)

Flairwhoo84123 said:


> should the British end their occupation of Northern Ireland, and Scotland, allow Irish unification, and Scottish independence.


The Scots are British, they had a referendum in 2013 to remain in the Union, the leader of the independence movement, Alex Salmond, described it as "a generational vote". Northern Ireland is a sovereign nation and a member of the United Kingdom - there is no appetite in Dublin for a 'united Ireland', there has never been a 'united Ireland' in history.

Some of your other examples are as equally clumsy/inaccurate and appear to be straight out of a Saint Petersburg troll farm handbook.


There have been missteps from the West towards Russia over the last three decades, principally Kosovo. Former Georgian president Saakashvilli warned us Putin was obsessed with avenging this perceived wrong - while the likes of David Cameron were reassuring the world Putin and Medvedev were people "we could do business with". But this is all of little consequence to where events have escalated to, Russia has invaded a sovereign nation and is irresponsibly throwing out nuclear threats like confetti.

Putin has already delivered a deranged speech outlining his ambition to restore Russia to the size it was under Peter the Great, this includes the three Baltic NATO countries. Appeasement is not an option, that mistake was made in 2014.


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## BruiserKC (Mar 14, 2010)

Flairwhoo84123 said:


> Isolationist? Nope, for very limited intervention when it actually matters to the survival of america, yes, and also a realist, not like you a lunatic idealist trying to make the world into your bullshit image, it modern day manifest destiny your pushing.


No, isolationist. Not allowing conflicts to spread into large wars we would be dragged into is in America’s best interest. I don’t want to remake the world, but don’t want the fires to burn at our doorstep.


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## FriedTofu (Sep 29, 2014)

Flairwhoo84123 said:


> There a difference The baltics are apart of NATo, we are bound to protect them whatever we like it or not, what kind of interventionism are you against? Again if the Russian occupation so bad? Is the spanish occupation ofthe bosque region and Catalonia justified? should the Turks leave Northern Syria, Northern Cyprus and historical Byzantine Greek territories of Constantinople region and Cappadoncia , since it illegal occupation conquered by turkish muslims, should the Zionist Israelis leave the Gaza Strip, West Bank , Shabaa Farms, East Jerusalem, and Golan Heights, and the Jewish settlers back their bags back to Europe, Russia and North America, should China end it ethnic genocidal occupation of Tibet , and Xinjiang, should the British end their occupation of Northern Ireland, and Scotland, allow Irish unification, and Scottish independence, should the us give the South west and California back to Mexico? Should the Azeris give up their occupation of ethnic Christian Armenian Nagrono Karabakh back to Armenia , should the Iranians, Turks, Iraqis, and Syrians cease their occupation of Kurdistan? Why is Ukraine so special, is it because you and Bruiser deep down gave a hatred towards Russian people, culture, literature, religion, view of the world , heritage?
> 
> Did the us intervene in the Polish communist martial law of 1981? NO Reagan canceling a trade deal, and covert support of Solidarty was the solution, did Ike intervene in the Hungarian crisis of 1956? No he upped the ante of cultural engagement, use the bully pulpit to condemn the attack and canceled trade deal, and targeted sanctions, Did JFK go to war over the Berlin wall crisis of 1961? No he gave a speech about us all being berliners, despite the issues of the time didnt Nixon open up China and did detente with the Soviets? Did Truman start a war over the Beelin blockcade? No he did the Berlin airlift , which won the people hearts and minds over to outside, and he implemented the containment doctrine (not the end the world with nukes doctrine like some keyboard warriors here would like), did Ford go to war over the NOrth Korean attack over the tree incident in 76? No he showed milltary show of power and used back channel means to send a message, he didnt go balls out like some here want, did Bush Sr(despite my disagreement with the Gulf war, he handled it good) go marching into baghdad in 91? No he didnt put boots on the ground for that? Nope , but somewhere believe war and boots on the ground because they hate the russian people as the first option , and not the very last option. Sometimes restraint , while being strong is the most prudent message to a adversary, Putin is a autocrat but he no Stalin or Hitler, if that was the case he would of wiped out the liberal modernist opposition in Moscow (muscovites), and St Petersburg years ago, and would set up camps years ago, the Russian people until the last two years, starting with the covid restrictions mess, loved putin for his stance against the oligarch excesses, and privization of the Yeltsin years, the yeltsin massacre of the shelling of his own parliment, and the humilating defeat in the first chechen war, and the break down in law and order under yeltsin, and the us helping Yeltsin rig the 1996 election, and impose shock capitalism onto the poverty stricken Russian people. Whatever people here like it or not we set up the conditions for a populist nationalist like Putin to seize power, whatever he a thug or not.


Wtf am I reading? Ukraine is special because Russian actions directly place the energy security of Europe under tremendous risks. Which places many of the developed economies of the world under threat. There is nothing more to it.

Your whataboutism to stan for Putin is frankly disturbing. Oh and to answer you question, I don't have a clue what kind of intervention I am against short of use of nuclear weapons. Because I don't know what I don't know. Like I said it depends on Putin's ambitions. He wasn't satisfied with Crimea so why are you sure he would be with just Ukraine?


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## Flairwhoo84123 (Jan 3, 2022)

AthleticGirth said:


> The Scots are British, they had a referendum in 2013 to remain in the Union, the leader of the independence movement, Alex Salmond, described it as "a generational vote". Northern Ireland is a sovereign nation and a member of the United Kingdom - there is no appetite in Dublin for a 'united Ireland', there has never been a 'united Ireland' in history.
> 
> Some of your other examples are as equally clumsy/inaccurate and appear to be straight out of a Saint Petersburg troll farm handbook.
> 
> ...


Cool story bro, the us backs scumbags like the Muslim brotherhood that slaughtered minorities in the arab spring in syria, Libya, Tuinsia, and Egypt, backs the tplf terrorists in ethiopia against a sovereign government and commit Genocide against the Ahmara people, backed the kla, Bosnian mhujideen, and fascist ustasha to break up yugoslavia, and supports the occupation of Palestine, the Golan Heights, and Shabaa farms, seems hypocritical to cry "soverngity " over Ukraine all of a sudden, if Sovergnity matter the Clintonians and bushfires wouldnt have forced the Ukranians hands to surrender their nukes.



BruiserKC said:


> No, isolationist. Not allowing conflicts to spread into large wars we would be dragged into is in America’s best interest. I don’t want to remake the world, but don’t want the fires to burn at our doorstep.


Is Putin coming to America? Is he coming to berlin? Is he coming to Prague? Is he coming to paris? During the whole cold war we drew mainly at the river Danube, and we didnt intervene in crisis behind the wall , we covertly supported the freedom fighters but not "put boots on the ground" in those lands, restraint but with a forceful strength in the western half of europe , and making the soviets spend themselves into bankruptcy won the cold war, not a nuclear holocaust , seem some here are nihilists that want the whole world to die , thinking they are going to live out their road warrior/mad max fantasties.


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## AthleticGirth (Jul 25, 2020)

Flairwhoo84123 said:


> Cool story bro, the us backs scumbags like the Muslim brotherhood that slaughtered minorities in the arab spring in syria, Libya, Tuinsia, and Egypt, backs the tplf terrorists in ethiopia against a sovereign government and commit Genocide against the Ahmara people, backed the kla, Bosnian mhujideen, and fascist ustasha to break up yugoslavia, and supports the occupation of Palestine, the Golan Heights, and Shabaa farms, seems hypocritical to cry "soverngity " over Ukraine all of a sudden, if Sovergnity matter the Clintonians and bushfires wouldnt have forced the Ukranians hands to surrender their nukes.


I don't disagree with some of that but it's a nebulous post in relation to the topic. 

We're disusing Russia's invasion of Ukraine. Your whataboutery and obfuscation isn't adding anything.


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## BruiserKC (Mar 14, 2010)

Flairwhoo84123 said:


> Is Putin coming to America? Is he coming to berlin? Is he coming to Prague? Is he coming to paris? During the whole cold war we drew mainly at the river Danube, and we didnt intervene in crisis behind the wall , we covertly supported the freedom fighters but not "put boots on the ground" in those lands, restraint but with a forceful strength in the western half of europe , and making the soviets spend themselves into bankruptcy won the cold war, not a nuclear holocaust , seem some here are nihilists that want the whole world to die , thinking they are going to live out their road warrior/mad max fantasties.


It’s very simple. Stop Putin now, give Ukraine all the military equipment they need to make it happen and isolate Putin and Russia from the rest of the world. Or, allow Putin to have Ukraine and watch him march onward through Europe until the cost to get rid of him is much higher. 

Once upon a time people who would be considered conservative understood that sometimes you have to face the bully. Now they cower. How pathetic.


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## Mr. King Of Kings (May 16, 2006)

Flairwhoo84123 said:


> Cool story bro, the us backs scumbags like the Muslim brotherhood that slaughtered minorities in the arab spring in syria, Libya, Tuinsia, and Egypt, backs the tplf terrorists in ethiopia against a sovereign government and commit Genocide against the Ahmara people, backed the kla, Bosnian mhujideen, and fascist ustasha to break up yugoslavia, and supports the occupation of Palestine, the Golan Heights, and Shabaa farms, seems hypocritical to cry "soverngity " over Ukraine all of a sudden, if Sovergnity matter the Clintonians and bushfires wouldnt have forced the Ukranians hands to surrender their nukes.


People that desperately want you to take a side in this, and act as if life is some sort of Hollywood movie, don't seem to understand (or don't want to understand) that there is no good side in this.


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## Flairwhoo84123 (Jan 3, 2022)

BruiserKC said:


> It’s very simple. Stop Putin now, give Ukraine all the military equipment they need to make it happen and isolate Putin and Russia from the rest of the world. Or, allow Putin to have Ukraine and watch him march onward through Europe until the cost to get rid of him is much higher.
> 
> Once upon a time people who would be considered conservative understood that sometimes you have to face the bully. Now they cower. How patheti





BruiserKC said:


> It’s very simple. Stop Putin now, give Ukraine all the military equipment they need to make it happen and isolate Putin and Russia from the rest of the world. Or, allow Putin to have Ukraine and watch him march onward through Europe until the cost to get rid of him is much higher.
> 
> Once upon a time people who would be considered conservative understood that sometimes you have to face the bully. Now they cower. How pathetic.


What? Calvin Coolidge and Warren G harding out togther the Washington naval conference, negotiated the terms to end ww1 on favorable conditions and kept us out of the leauge of nations, and incrementally ending our occupations in Latin America, while Reagan had the rollback strategy against International Communism, it was still covert, not direct, and he still negotiated arms control, and had direct talk, Ike didnt intervene in the crisis of 1956, and had restraint during the u-2 crisis, Nixon had detente with with both Mao china and the Soviet Union, and started the vietnamization process, it was the conservative stalwart Robert A Taft that initially opposed NATO, lend lease to Stalin soviet union and handing over eastern europe to Stalin to begin with, while recognizing Korea as a boondoggle, it was the ultra hawkish Libertarian-conservative, staunch anti-Communist Barry Gomdwater that said if we didnt win in Indochina in 2 years, and was allowed to win the war with all means necessary, then we should pull out, also that NATO should out in their share of the cost and sacrifice and allies shouldn't be dependent on american mens and boys, George Bush sr expelled the Iraqis from Kuwait (which I disagreed with), bit was wise enough to put differences with nations like Assad Syria aside to join the gulf war coalition , Restrained Israel with Iraqi scud missle attacks on tel Aviv (as well as as was smart enough to keep the israelis out of the coalition to not alienate the muslim, and arab street), and didnt go marching on baghdad, even not intervening in saddam suppression of the shia and kurdish uprisings of 1991-1992. These men to one degree or another were conservative on some spectrum all practiced realism and restraint, and it why by the 1980s to early 2000s America was the predominate power in the world, it was the idealists, the types (some here), who view things through the lens of Hollywood action films knocking out bullies in warfare), the hawkish cultural liberal, economic libertarian neoliberal wing of the democrat party, and the neocon wing of the GOP that blew it, and why America is in decline, and no longer the unilateral power in the world.


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## Jets4Life (Aug 20, 2012)

Unless Russia does something _really _stupid (I.e. Nuclear weapons and such).The Ukraine is going to drive the Russian army out of the country and take back the Crimea, most likely by the end of winter.

If Russia uses weapons of mass destruction, it very well could trigger World War 3, as NATO would almost certainly retaliate.



Mr. King Of Kings said:


> People that desperately want you to take a side in this, and act as if life is some sort of Hollywood movie, don't seem to understand (or don't want to understand) that there is no good side in this.


Most people tend to support countries who are invaded by much larger and powerful countries, like Russia invading Ukraine. There is dldo the issue of the Russian army committing war crimes against the civilian population.


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## Flairwhoo84123 (Jan 3, 2022)

Jets4Life said:


> Unless Russia does something _really _stupid (I.e. Nuclear weapons and such).The Ukraine is going to drive the Russian army out of the country and take back the Crimea, most likely by the end of winter.
> 
> If Russia uses weapons of mass destruction, it very well could trigger World War 3, as NATO would almost certainly retaliate.


Never say never, people thought America would conquer iraq, until the alienated sunnis sent them packing (before having to go back in), people thought the Nazis would take Moscow and Stalingrad, many people thought the South would win the civil war with the british crown backing, and people thought the communist yoke would never collapse across the Eastern bloc, never say never with what could happen in a years time, it possible , most likely Ukraine will kick the Russian forces out, idk about Crimea though, it a rallying cry for Russian nationalists, we shall see. If Ukraine wins, hurray It the biggest blunder since Stalin sent Soviet troops to die In The winter war with Finland, and Putin be held accountable by the nationalists who felt he didnt go far enough, the youth who friends and family were sent off to die, the parents of Russian soldiers, and the milltary who been increasingly weary of how the war been waged, wouldn't be surprised with a coup, similar to the coup in 64 that ousted Khruschev after the humiliation of the Cuban missle crisis, and the negative outcome of the Agriculture reforms.


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## Jets4Life (Aug 20, 2012)

Flairwhoo84123 said:


> most likely Ukraine will kick the Russian forces out, idk about Crimea though, it a rallying cry for Russian nationalists, we shall see. If Ukraine wins, hurray It the biggest blunder since Stalin sent Soviet troops to die In The winter war with Finland, and Putin be held accountable by the nationalists who felt he didnt go far enough, the youth who friends and family were sent off to die, the parents of Russian soldiers, and the milltary who been increasingly weary of how the war been waged, wouldn't be surprised with a coup, similar to the coup in 64 that ousted Khruschev after the humiliation of the Cuban missle crisis, and the negative outcome of the Agriculture reforms.


This is a huge gamble by Putin (conscripting up to 1,000,000 military-able Russians), to fight in the Ukraine. Tens of thousands of Russians have already died in 7 months- more than the combined number of US troops in Vietnam. If the gamble fails, we may see a Russian revolution for the third time in 105 years (the others being 1917 and 1991). 

Poland ended up gaining a massive amount of land while fighting the Russians after World War 1, as Russia was in civil strife during the Bolshevik Revolution, and we can possible see the Ukrainians mount another huge offensive if there is civil unrest in Russia. Conflicts such as Armenia-Azerbaijan, the Iran uprising, and the conflict between Tajikistan and Kyrgyzstan are heating up, as the Russians are currently powerless to intervene for their allies.


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## FriedTofu (Sep 29, 2014)

Flairwhoo84123 said:


> Never say never, people thought America would conquer iraq, until the alienated sunnis sent them packing (before having to go back in), people thought the Nazis would take Moscow and Stalingrad, many people thought the South would win the civil war with the british crown backing, and people thought the communist yoke would never collapse across the Eastern bloc, never say never with what could happen in a years time, it possible , most likely Ukraine will kick the Russian forces out, idk about Crimea though, it a rallying cry for Russian nationalists, we shall see. If Ukraine wins, hurray It the biggest blunder since Stalin sent Soviet troops to die In The winter war with Finland, and Putin be held accountable by the nationalists who felt he didnt go far enough, the youth who friends and family were sent off to die, the parents of Russian soldiers, and the milltary who been increasingly weary of how the war been waged, wouldn't be surprised with a coup, similar to the coup in 64 that ousted Khruschev after the humiliation of the Cuban missle crisis, and the negative outcome of the Agriculture reforms.


Most people thought Moscow would take Kyiv/Keiv within a week. Just read the earlier posts in here.

You don't need to go that far back in history to bring up examples to gish gallop us to death.


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## Jets4Life (Aug 20, 2012)

One interesting thing about this conflict, is I am learning about places and regions I had no idea existed...like the Islamic Republic of Dagestan.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1574432385533460481

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1574386378678407171


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## Jets4Life (Aug 20, 2012)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1574311576957485059
In Russia this weekend, a local military recruiter was rounding up young men to be deployed in the Ukraine. A 25 year old Russian student shouted "we're not going anywhere" before opening fire, killing the recruiter.


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## Jets4Life (Aug 20, 2012)

It's been reported that at least 260,000 men have fled Russia since mobilization was declared. I guess it's better to be a refugee than a casualty of war.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1574137426943025154

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1572875047689396225

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1574474165985460234


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## Mr. King Of Kings (May 16, 2006)

Mr. King Of Kings said:


> People that desperately want you to take a side in this, and act as if life is some sort of Hollywood movie, don't seem to understand (or don't want to understand) that there is no good side in this.


If the US of A sabotaged Nord Stream (which is very likely in my opinion - they have the means and motivation to do such a thing), it only proves my point yet again. That there's no good side in this.


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## ShadowAngel (11 mo ago)

Mr. King Of Kings said:


> (which is very likely in my opinion - they have the means and motivation to do such a thing)


Nobody else makes sense. Given that the Department of State (via Mike Pompeo) in January and Biden in February announced that they would put an end to Nordstream should Russia invade the Ukraine, they also pretty much announced it. 

And the fact that all western politicians and media instantly jump to the conclussion that it only could be Russia, tells me that it wasn't them, because that's just your token stupid propaganda for stupid fools. 

Why would Russia destroy their pipelines, considering they made a ton of money with it and still could've used it as a credible leverage to get rid of the sanctions, should western countries run out of gas. For Russia it would make more sense to sabotage the Baltic Pipeline Norway and Poland built or to attack the tankers full of gas coming from Saudia Arabia to Europe now. 

Something is going down, considering just a few hours after this sabotage act, the US Embassy in Russia told all americans who live in Russia to leave the country immediately. Why now? Why so sudden? Why after this? Why didn't they say so after Russia started their attack?


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## FriedTofu (Sep 29, 2014)

Yeah Russia attacking their own pipelines makes little sense. One far-fetched reason could be Putin is losing control over the oligarchs and destroying the pipelines is sending a message that business is not going to be back to usual even if they got rid of him.


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## ShadowAngel (11 mo ago)

FriedTofu said:


> One far-fetched reason could be Putin is losing control over the oligarchs and destroying the pipelines is sending a message that business is not going to be back to usual even if they got rid of him.


Doesn't Putin do that since January 30 when all those "mysterious" deaths and suicides started to happen? Like with high ranking people of Lukoil, like Ravil Maganov, who somehow managed to fall out of a hospital window while smoking on September 1 or Alexander Subotin who died in May during a "shamanic ritual" or Sergey Protensya who was found hanged from a handrail, while his wife and child were brutally murdered with blunt axe hits and knife stabs in Spain back in April. 
He doesn't need to blow up a pipeline to send a message - or multiple, constant messages.


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## FriedTofu (Sep 29, 2014)

ShadowAngel said:


> Doesn't Putin do that since January 30 when all those "mysterious" deaths and suicides started to happen? Like with high ranking people of Lukoil, like Ravil Maganov, who somehow managed to fall out of a hospital window while smoking on September 1 or Alexander Subotin who died in May during a "shamanic ritual" or Sergey Protensya who was found hanged from a handrail, while his wife and child were brutally murdered with blunt axe hits and knife stabs in Spain back in April.
> He doesn't need to blow up a pipeline to send a message - or multiple, constant messages.


If the oligarchs see themselves as dead men walking anyway, the idea of a coup might be their best option left. Putin doesn't know which individual will be swayed by such thinking, and he cannot afford to kill them all at once for the time being. Blowing up the pipelines mean the oligarchs cannot use the carrot of Russian gas to ease Europe's energy crisis in the short term to negotiate for the West to aid in their coup. It sends the message that even if they got rid of him, the costs of doing business with Europe will be higher. Uncertainty over the security of the pipelines means higher security costs means lower profits for everyone.


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## BruiserKC (Mar 14, 2010)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1575427366750507008

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1575428888074887168
As this is happening…


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1575416043375366150

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1575417216903815169

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1575417708748963841
It’s a point of no return now for Russia. By doing this as the Ukrainian army advances to reclaim taken land, Russia can now say they are threatening Russia itself. Meanwhile…

https://twitter.com/jenniferjjacobs/status/1575184305600753664?s=46&t=AVR86K8ro6GCR-XaAL3DCQ

The Russians have no real defense mechanisms against the HIMARS (High Mobility Artillery Rocket System). And more people are fleeing Russia rather than be drafted into fighting.

Which explains why Russia sabotaged Nordstream. They want to put added pressure on Europe to stop backing Ukraine.


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## validreasoning (Jul 4, 2012)

BruiserKC said:


> Which explains why Russia sabotaged Nordstream. They want to put added pressure on Europe to stop backing Ukraine.


Brings war to the Baltics too. On the same day Poland signed deal with Norway the nordstream was attacked

The suggestion the US would attack a pipeline on European continent is just laughable.


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## Jets4Life (Aug 20, 2012)

ShadowAngel said:


> Nobody else makes sense. Given that the Department of State (via Mike Pompeo) in January and Biden in February announced that they would put an end to Nordstream should Russia invade the Ukraine, they also pretty much announced it.
> 
> And the fact that all western politicians and media instantly jump to the conclussion that it only could be Russia, tells me that it wasn't them, because that's just your token stupid propaganda for stupid fools.
> 
> ...





BruiserKC said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1575427366750507008
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1575428888074887168
> As this is happening…
> ...


Putin has lost touch with reality. He has pretty much fired everyone that gives him half decent advice, or people who are brave enough to inform him that he is making mistakes. He has replaced them with "yes" men.

Mexico can "annex" Texas tomorrow, but if nobody recognizes the annexation, and Mexico does not have the means to conquer Texas, then what point will it serve. Just like Russia is annexing parts of Ukraine, even though most of the territory annexed will be liberated within the next 3 months.


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## Art Vandaley (Jan 9, 2006)

Jets4Life said:


> Putin has lost touch with reality. He has pretty much fired everyone that gives him half decent advice, or people who are brave enough to inform him that he is making mistakes. He has replaced them with "yes" men.
> 
> Mexico can "annex" Texas tomorrow, but if nobody recognizes the annexation, and Mexico does not have the means to conquer Texas, then what point will it serve. Just like Russia is annexing parts of Ukraine, even though most of the territory annexed will be liberated within the next 3 months.


It's justification to launch a nuclear strike on Ukraine.

You're invading sovereign russian territory, so we are justified in the use of nuclear weapons.

I mean I hope it doesn't happen, but I can't see Russia not making the threat, and I can't see Ukraine backing down. 

Putin doesn't want WW3 but he's shown he's happy to play chicken to the extent that it may be inevitable. 

I'd try to enjoy the next couple of weeks as much as possible, especially if I was in Europe.


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## RealDealNow (May 21, 2021)

Honestly thought I'd never see the day Russia would use nuclear weapons against its Slavic brothers. Still hoping that I won't either.


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## Jets4Life (Aug 20, 2012)

Art Vandaley said:


> It's justification to launch a nuclear strike on Ukraine.
> 
> You're invading sovereign russian territory, so we are justified in the use of nuclear weapons.


If Russia uses any kind of nuclear weapons, it will be the collapse of Russia. NATO would get involved immediately.



> I mean I hope it doesn't happen, but I can't see Russia not making the threat, and I can't see Ukraine backing down.


Russia has already made threats of using nuclear weapons. That is why the US came out with a statement saying if Russia does deploy any type of weapon of mass destruction, they will face grave consequences (i.e. nuclear retaliation).



> Putin doesn't want WW3 but he's shown he's happy to play chicken to the extent that it may be inevitable.


Putin has already committed war crimes not seen in Europe since the Yugoslavian war (mass grave, abducting thousands of Ukrainian children to Russia, strikes on civilian targets, etc.). I can see Putin definitely wanting to use nuclear weapons...its a matter of his inner circle preventing him from doing so.



> I'd try to enjoy the next couple of weeks as much as possible, especially if I was in Europe.


Chances are the conflict will not escalate, especially if the Ukraine continues to defeat the Russians. Best case scenario is for the people to topple the Government, and kickstart a Russian Revolution like 1917 and 1991. Worst case scenario, is that Russia does deploy a nuclear warhead, and NATO declares war on Russia (this is highly unlikely to occur).


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## FriedTofu (Sep 29, 2014)

validreasoning said:


> Brings war to the Baltics too. On the same day Poland signed deal with Norway the nordstream was attacked
> 
> The suggestion the US would attack a pipeline on European continent is just laughable.


To be fair, it is also laughable for Russia to attack its own pipeline from the other POV. Someone is doing a 'false flag' type attack to justify escalation. We don't know which party is guilty yet.



Art Vandaley said:


> It's justification to launch a nuclear strike on Ukraine.
> 
> You're invading sovereign russian territory, so we are justified in the use of nuclear weapons.
> 
> ...


If Putin uses nuke, then he has clearly lost his mind. He cannot possibly believe he can defend Russia on all frontiers against a more technologically advanced NATO.


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## Art Vandaley (Jan 9, 2006)

@FriedTofu @Jets4Life

I really hope you're right and I'm wrong.

I think the nuclear threat after annexation will be more direct than the vague saber rattling we've got in the past.

It'll be a long the lines of "if the invasion of russian territory doesn't stop by x hour on y date, we will launch a defensive nuclear strike against Ukraine".

I do not see Ukraine backing down at that point.

At that point, and I really hope I'm wrong, there's a real risk Putin orders the threatened nuclear strike to go ahead.

He's already shown that he is mad and done really stupid things he shouldn't have, because he thought he could get away with them and hasn't.

Edit: OK apparently Putin is only going to declare these territories as independent territories, not actually annex them, which wouldn't justify a nuclear threat.

Very good news if true.


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## ShadowAngel (11 mo ago)

BruiserKC said:


> Which explains why Russia sabotaged Nordstream. They want to put added pressure on Europe to stop backing Ukraine.


It doesn't. Really. 
It makes no sense
If Russia wanted to put pressure on Europe, they would've blown up the Baltic Pipeline, not their own, which they still could've used as leverage to put even more pressure on Europe and to get rid of the sactions against them. 
The russians aren't that retarded, that they would stage this attack as a false flag or do it in the hope that nations would blame each other. They know perfectly well that the entire west has singled them out as the sole bad guys in this and nobody is going to believe anything they say. 



RealDealNow said:


> Honestly thought I'd never see the day Russia would use nuclear weapons against its Slavic brothers. Still hoping that I won't either.


They won't. 
Even the russians themselves on 60 Minutes, which is a pure propaganda show, laughed at the idea that they would nuke the Ukraine. You don't shit where you eat as the saying goes and you wouldn't nuke good farmland, which the Ukraine has plenty of.
If they go nuclear, they are going to strike the countries they see as enemies and the first target will be the UK, because that's what they've been talking about for months now.


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## BruiserKC (Mar 14, 2010)

ShadowAngel said:


> It doesn't. Really.
> It makes no sense
> If Russia wanted to put pressure on Europe, they would've blown up the Baltic Pipeline, not their own, which they still could've used as leverage to put even more pressure on Europe and to get rid of the sactions against them.
> The russians aren't that retarded, that they would stage this attack as a false flag or do it in the hope that nations would blame each other. They know perfectly well that the entire west has singled them out as the sole bad guys in this and nobody is going to believe anything they say.
> ...


Well, continuing to placate him isn’t working either. Because now as he “annexes” parts of Ukraine into Russia, he continues to count on that all we will give him are empty words. He’s counting on Meloni to join Orban in planting the seeds of doubt on continuing to provide aid. He’s counting on the possibility of a Republican Congress taking charge in January and cutting off all aid and military equipment to them.

So far, everything that you thought would not happen has happened. And the oligarchs are not moving to oust him. And the price of stopping him just went up dramatically.


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## BruiserKC (Mar 14, 2010)

How it started…


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1575834904868200448
How it’s going.



https://www.nytimes.com/2022/09/29/world/europe/putin-russia-illegal-annexation-ukraine.html




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1575823260389867522

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1575848741256454144


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## FriedTofu (Sep 29, 2014)

This is looking like a historic blunder if NATO becomes bigger after years of being looked upon as a massive waste of money that belong as a relic of the past.


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## BruiserKC (Mar 14, 2010)

FriedTofu said:


> This is looking like a historic blunder if NATO becomes bigger after years of being looked upon as a massive waste of money that belong as a relic of the past.




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1575834509035343872
We seem to repeat history. Appeasing a bully hoping they go away. 😕


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## Jets4Life (Aug 20, 2012)

FriedTofu said:


> This is looking like a historic blunder if NATO becomes bigger after years of being looked upon as a massive waste of money that belong as a relic of the past.


NATO has never been a waste of money. Only Trump and his cronies think so.


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## AthleticGirth (Jul 25, 2020)

Jets4Life said:


> NATO has never been a waste of money. Only Trump and his cronies think so.


Macron was far more critical of NATO, the French back in 1963 even withdrew from the alliance for a time. Trump was dogged in demanding all NATO members meet their 2% GDP defence spending pledge - which seems fair enough and he even had success on that front.

If the rule of international law is to mean anything and we don't want a long protracted cold war that will blight future generations we simply can't afford the cost to appease this latest act of Russian banditry. When it come to appeasement I always think of Kipling's wonderful poem Dane-geld, it's sentiments hold true today.


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## Jets4Life (Aug 20, 2012)

AthleticGirth said:


> Macron was far more critical of NATO, the French back in 1963 even withdrew from the alliance for a time. Trump was dogged in demanding all NATO members meet their 2% GDP defence spending pledge - which seems fair enough and he even had success on that front.


Most NATO members have been increasing spending as a % of GDP for several years before Trump even became president. Canada has increased its military spending every year since 2014, but I think it slipped slightly in 2021 due to the unexpected pandemic. Greece spends more as a % of GDP than any NATO country.

As for Macron, he probably wants to plant more trees and pave the roads for the next time the Germans invade, and drive their tanks to Paris. 😉


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## FriedTofu (Sep 29, 2014)

Jets4Life said:


> NATO has never been a waste of money. Only Trump and his cronies think so.


That is just not true. EU leaders pivoted to a more conciliatory approach with trade to reduce the risk of military conflict. The thinking was it wasn't necessary anymore as the threat of a Russia attack on Europe was seen as a thing of the past. They were doing "peacekeeping missions" and critics label them as mercenaries for the US government and not a deterrence alliance.



Jets4Life said:


> Most NATO members have been increasing spending as a % of GDP for several years before Trump even became president. Canada has increased its military spending every year since 2014, but I think it slipped slightly in 2021 due to the unexpected pandemic. Greece spends more as a % of GDP than any NATO country.
> 
> As for Macron, he probably wants to plant more trees and pave the roads for the next time the Germans invade, and drive their tanks to Paris. 😉


Many were also spending below the agreed upon % of GDP for years as well. No question there is an underinvestment by European nations in their defenses.


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## Jets4Life (Aug 20, 2012)

FriedTofu said:


> That is just not true. EU leaders pivoted to a more conciliatory approach with trade to reduce the risk of military conflict. The thinking was it wasn't necessary anymore as the threat of a Russia attack on Europe was seen as a thing of the past. They were doing "peacekeeping missions" and critics label them as mercenaries for the US government and not a deterrence alliance.


NATO not only was an alliance formed to guard against Soviet Advancement (which worked out well), but also has stabilized the Western World for the three decades since the collapse of Communism. WW1 began in the Balkans. It very well could have conceivably happened again, had NATO not intervened, and neutralized Serbia. It also preserved the USA as a superpower. Under NATO, the USA was viewed upon as the defender of Western values, and democracy. This indirectly let most countries to think highly of America, and Americans benefited from favorable trade deals (instinctively, people want to be associated with a strong country).

If NATO ceased to exist, the Ukraine and Eastern Europe would be far more vulnerable to Russian aggression.




> Many were also spending below the agreed upon % of GDP for years as well. No question there is an underinvestment by European nations in their defenses.


All Allies contribute to the NATO budget on an agreed cost-share formula based on Gross National Income, right from the creation of the organization. Some countries contribute more or less, depending on numerous factors. For instance, Greece may be the largest per-capita contributor, considering they neighbor Turkey, a historic rival that has invaded them from time to time. Slightly behind the USA< is Poland, another country that has historically been victim to invasions from more powerful enemies (Russia and Germany in particular).










Contrarily, some can make the argument that the USA spends too much on defense, as many of their foreign policy decisions have been viewed upon as questionable in the last 60 years. We can't just say every country from Europe is under investing in NATO, since that would be inaccurate. It will be interesting to see how the Ukrain-Russia War plays out to see where NATO goes from here (Ukraine made an official application to join NATO).


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## FriedTofu (Sep 29, 2014)

Jets4Life said:


> NATO not only was an alliance formed to guard against Soviet Advancement (which worked out well), but also has stabilized the Western World for the three decades since the collapse of Communism. WW1 began in the Balkans. It very well could have conceivably happened again, had NATO not intervened, and neutralized Serbia. It also preserved the USA as a superpower. Under NATO, the USA was viewed upon as the defender of Western values, and democracy. This indirectly let most countries to think highly of America, and Americans benefited from favorable trade deals (instinctively, people want to be associated with a strong country).
> 
> If NATO ceased to exist, the Ukraine and Eastern Europe would be far more vulnerable to Russian aggression.


Dude nobody was starting WW3 over Serbia. It was a civil war. Like I said, NATO was viewed as mercenaries for the US by its critics. Preserving USA status, promote USA image. Nothing you raised countered that point.





> All Allies contribute to the NATO budget on an agreed cost-share formula based on Gross National Income, right from the creation of the organization. Some countries contribute more or less, depending on numerous factors. For instance, Greece may be the largest per-capita contributor, considering they neighbor Turkey, a historic rival that has invaded them from time to time. Slightly behind the USA< is Poland, another country that has historically been victim to invasions from more powerful enemies (Russia and Germany in particular).
> 
> View attachment 134627
> 
> ...


Almost every country's numbers you posted were below the 2% mark that was agreed upon in what 2006. I don't understand how you think this graph support your argument. Greece numbers is due to the collapse of their economy more than more investment. One could argue requiring a fixed amount rather than how the amount is invested is a bad metric. But the fact is European nations were not investing at the agreed upon percentage for years.

Also. I never said every country from Europe, I said European nations. Don't strawman this.


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## Art Vandaley (Jan 9, 2006)

NATO was perceived to be a waste of money, but that was clearly wrong with 20-20 hindsight.

And Putin did annex the territories, but hasn't made any nuclear threat yet.

It sounds like he thinks they can have more success using conventional methods first and will try to push the border further. Russia doesn't actually hold vast portions of the lands they've declared they've annexed.

I don't think that'll work though, the mobilisation has been a disaster and they lack tanks and artillery more than manpower anyway.

So I wonder what will happen when Putin realises the war is unwinnable conventionally.


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## Jets4Life (Aug 20, 2012)

FriedTofu said:


> Dude nobody was starting WW3 over Serbia. It was a civil war. Like I said, NATO was viewed as mercenaries for the US by its critics. Preserving USA status, promote USA image. Nothing you raised countered that point.


Did I say that the Yugoslavian War was going to lead to World War 3? No. I'm not sure if you understand European history, but conflicts in the Balkans have had the potential to spread out to other regions. It's happened for centuries. The Ottoman and Hapsburg Empires would be examples. Having NATO intervene in the conflict prevented the potential for other countries to become involved. Do you think Albania and Turkey (Muslim nations) are going to stand idly by, while there is a genocide going on against the Bosnian Muslims? 




> Almost every country's numbers you posted were below the 2% mark that was agreed upon in what 2006. I don't understand how you think this graph support your argument. Greece numbers is due to the collapse of their economy more than more investment. One could argue requiring a fixed amount rather than how the amount is invested is a bad metric. But the fact is European nations were not investing at the agreed upon percentage for years.


The percentage of GDP that NATO would like it's members to contribute, has varied since it's establishment in 1949. Most nations aim to achieve that goal, but in life, sometimes countries, for a variety of reasons, fall short of this goal. In a perfect World, every country would contribute to a 2% threshold. However, in a perfect World, there would never be any recessions, and no country would run a deficit.

This is pretty awesome. The Ukraine Army has encircled a Russian Military unit consisting of Nearly 6,000 soldiers, who are, for all intensive purposes trapped. They are also moving into Lyman, and liberating the city.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1576017136929353728
Map showing the advancement of the Ukrainian Army since September counter-offensive began:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1575980870632378368


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## FriedTofu (Sep 29, 2014)

Jets4Life said:


> Did I say that the Yugoslavian War was going to lead to World War 3? No. I'm not sure if you understand European history, but conflicts in the Balkans have had the potential to spread out to other regions. It's happened for centuries. The Ottoman and Hapsburg Empires would be examples. Having NATO intervene in the conflict prevented the potential for other countries to become involved. Do you think Albania and Turkey (Muslim nations) are going to stand idly by, while there is a genocide going on against the Bosnian Muslims?


You were implying stepping into Serbia was of the same relevance as picking a side in the Cold War. 🤷‍♂️ 

The number of refugees from that longer war seem more manageable than the refugees from Syria just in comparison of the consequences. I highly doubt Muslim countries were going to war over Bosnian Muslims. Wars are not cheap. Non-state actors maybe, but the state would not enter the conflict directly. Besides, other countries were already involved by selling arms illegally.





> The percentage of GDP that NATO would like it's members to contribute, has varied since it's establishment in 1949. Most nations aim to achieve that goal, but in life, sometimes countries, for a variety of reasons, fall short of this goal. In a perfect World, every country would contribute to a 2% threshold. However, in a perfect World, there would never be any recessions, and no country would run a deficit.


They agreed in 2006 on the 2% figure. Many countries didn't follow up on that until Crimea in 2014. Some still aren't. Evidently the decision makers did not see the need to invest in this area because they do feel the threat warranted such expenditure.


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## FriedTofu (Sep 29, 2014)

Ukraine forces advance on two fronts, cross Russian lines in the south


Ukrainian forces achieved their biggest breakthrough in the country's south since the war began, bursting through Russian defences and advancing rapidly along the Dnipro River on Monday, threatening supply lines for thousands of Russian troops.




www.reuters.com





Huge victory for Ukrainian side.


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## Paul Diaz-Berrio (Jul 24, 2017)

Normally, I don't draw parallels between art and life. I keep the two separate, but I feel that there are times when the two merge and create startling events.

The shooting of the person in charge of recruitment at the Russian conscription center, the killings of the Russian Military recruits, the bomber crashing into the residential building in Russia, paints the following picture in my head... The Russians are establishing an organization that takes after Gene Roddenberry's Borg. They are creating a hive of ants, linked together by the collective directive to go to war with Ukraine, no individuals, just one massive swarm, with no soul. The residential citizens are their backers and a probable source of officer recruitment.

In light of this, two of the Russian recruits, among others, conceived of the idea that Patrick Stewart's words from the film Star Trek First Contact voiced...

"You may encounter Enterprise crew members who have already been assimilated. Don't hesitate to fire. Believe me, you'll be doing them a favor."


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## Jets4Life (Aug 20, 2012)

Evidence is starting to emerge that Russia is committing genocide against the Ukrainians. Tens of thousands of women and children have gone missing, and were likely taken to Russia to either be adopted to Russian families, or for the women, kept as sex slaves or married off to Russian men forcefully. 

There are also reports that there may be tens of thousands, and possibly hundreds of thousands of civilians that were murdered in Russian occupied Ukraine. This is going to be the worst case of ethnic cleansing since World War II.


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## FriedTofu (Sep 29, 2014)

Biden: 'Unlikely' missile that hit Poland fired from Russia


NUSA DUA, Indonesia (AP) — President Joe Biden said Wednesday it was “unlikely” that a missile that killed two in NATO-ally Poland was fired from Russia, but he pledged support for Poland's investigation into what it had called a “Russian-made” missile.




apnews.com







> President Joe Biden said Wednesday it was “unlikely” that a missile that killed two in NATO-ally Poland was fired from Russia, but he pledged support for Poland’s investigation into what it had called a “Russian-made” missile.
> 
> Biden spoke after he convened an “emergency” meeting of the Group of Seven and NATO leaders in Indonesia Wednesday morning for consultations on the explosion that killed two people in the eastern part of Poland near the Ukraine border.
> 
> ...


More emergency meetings over how to address this collateral damage situation.


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## Paul Diaz-Berrio (Jul 24, 2017)

Taking into account what's happening in Ukraine, we don't need Thanos or his Black Order to bring balance to our world - Ukraine and its allies are already performing that task. More than 100,000 Russians are dead, the nation now has less mouths to feed and more resources to be shared.Those who are still alive will thrive and Russia will prosper as a country. In the spaces left behind by the dead, new life will succeed. When the war is over, Russia will be a better country, tempered by its failed conflict and hopefully, wiser. The work has always been done, it must always be done.

I mourn the deaths in Ukraine, but they have been rightfully avenged. Whatever happens, Ukraine is winning this war and it deserves to. They are doing Russia a service by pushing them back and reducing their numbers. I look forward to the era that will be ushered in after the war.


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