# Sparse crowd at RAW last week. Half empty



## Bubzeh (May 25, 2011)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*

I feel like I've been Rick Rolled.


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## vanboxmeer (Aug 27, 2007)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*

With abysmal talents like Sheamus, Ryback, and AJ shitting it up every single week in featured spots with their TMZ booking philosophy, of course there's not going to be people paying to see WWE and leaving shows early.


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## N-destroy (Jul 19, 2012)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*

Those were taken before the show.

Edit: I was wrong. These were during the show and OP is right. This looks pathetic, almost smackdown levels.




































































Save_us_Ambrose unk2


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## Jimmyzoso8794 (Nov 20, 2012)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*

True, but you wouldnt think that their Flagship show would have to tarp of almost half of the arena. It's happened for Smackdown tapings many times before.


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## Jimmyzoso8794 (Nov 20, 2012)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*

In the pics you can faintly see the Ryback vs Tensai match, and there's a pic with Barrett and kofi, so they were taken during the show.


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## ToddTheBod (Jul 6, 2010)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*

Booking is so short term nowadays, cards flip flop constantly thus not booking strong feuds thus there being no interest.

We had Team Ziggler vs. Team Foley at Survivor Series and neither of them were in the ring together prior to the match...and including the match.

Foley had no reason to be a part of it.


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## CHIcagoMade (Feb 28, 2009)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*

Can someone post the pictures here?

I'm too lazy to go looking.


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## Jimmyzoso8794 (Nov 20, 2012)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*

That means Ryback delivered his first promo to empty seats.


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## FoxyRoxy (Feb 18, 2012)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*

you'd think that the Vince would be on red alert after all these low ratings and half empty arenas on Smackdown and now RAW too. 
But no, the company is just fine isn't it Vince?


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## zkorejo (Jul 2, 2010)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*

Hahahaha hhohohoohoh take that Vinnie BITCH!


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## The-Rock-Says (Feb 28, 2011)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*

Shit! That's bad.


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## TromaDogg (Apr 23, 2011)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*

fpalm

So do people still think that WWE is 'doing fine'? That reminds me of what Raw crowds were like during the mid 1990's

Even if they have still got a decent amount of money coming in, what are they going to do when crowds just stop turning up?

At this rate, they're eventually going to be having a whole show consisting of 'empty arena' matches.


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## Brock_Lock (Jun 11, 2011)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*



Jimmyzoso8794 said:


> That means Ryback delivered his first promo to empty seats.


well, less pressure on him if there is no one watching


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## Hera (Oct 9, 2012)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*

Raw this coming week is in Lafayette where I live. The main floor and lower levels are sold out. Should be a decent enough crowd in terms of size but I wouldn't expect anything in terms of it being good.


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## jonoaries (Mar 7, 2011)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*

3 days before Thanksgiving and 4 days before Black Friday.....


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## Eddie Ray (Sep 6, 2012)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*

two words-erratic booking.

also its handy to look up age and sex demographics as well as wealth of an area, such things can effect turnout in certain places.

http://www.areavibes.com/dayton-oh/demographics/


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## A$AP (Jul 24, 2012)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*

Well did you see the show? I have a hard time sitting through 25% of the show for free let alone paying money for that shit. /GTFOH


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## The-Rock-Says (Feb 28, 2011)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*



jonoaries said:


> 3 days before Thanksgiving and 4 days before Black Friday.....


Always an excuse.


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## Eddie Ray (Sep 6, 2012)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*



jonoaries said:


> 3 days before Thanksgiving and 4 days before Black Friday.....


that's also a good observation. many factors determine what a turnout is going to be, so, although the show has been badly booked lately many other factors can and no doubt, will, play a role.


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## jonoaries (Mar 7, 2011)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*



The-Rock-Says said:


> Always an excuse.


When you live in the past you don't have to deal with today's issues.


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## jonoaries (Mar 7, 2011)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*

Everything is going to be slow business-wise until at least the beginning of next year. So be prepared for people talking about low PPV buys and attendance for awhile. This is the season where American consumerism kicks into hyper-drive. WWE will sell video games and DVDs during this time though, so it may work out but its not easy to be in an industry like wrestling in a country with a shitty economy during the holiday season. 


That's common fuckin' sense.


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## muttgeiger (Feb 16, 2004)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*



jonoaries said:


> When you live in the past you don't have to deal with today's issues.


Wait you were serious with that post? Why would the fact that it is 3 days before thanksgiving and 4 days before black friday affect the show attendance? People are still doing their normal stuff on thanksgiving week, hell a lot of people have to go back to work friday. If it was Christmas week, I'd get it...


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## Cliffy (Mar 31, 2011)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*

Dayton always does poorly.


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## jonoaries (Mar 7, 2011)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*



muttgeiger said:


> Wait you were serious with that post? Why would the fact that it is 3 days before thanksgiving and 4 days before black friday affect the show attendance? People are still doing their normal stuff on thanksgiving week, hell a lot of people have to go back to work friday. If it was Christmas week, I'd get it...



Its the beginning of the consumer season. People saving money to go shopping for Christmas and other things. Only American football can survive the holiday season because its ingrained as a holiday tradition. Wrestling surrendered the holidays a long time ago. People are not doing their "usual" stuff unless they have disposable income which unfortunately many in this country don't.

There's going to be quite a few people working Fridays...because of Black Friday, a relatively new phenomenon which is basically becoming a holiday in itself.


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## Green Light (Sep 17, 2011)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*

That's really bad.


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## Eddie Ray (Sep 6, 2012)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*

ok...heres why, now I'm not letting WWE off the hook, their erratic booking IS a huge problem, people don't know what they are getting thus it puts them off but here goes:

by the looks of things Dayton isn't overly wealthy as a city, far below the average state income (dayton $27,232 where as Ohio's general average is $45,395 with Daytons per capita income being around $15k [2009])


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## Eddie Ray (Sep 6, 2012)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*

that mixed with it being holiday season, saving to be done etc its not the best of mixes. Although well done to dayton for being livelier than 60% of most RAW crowds with a tiny arena and half capacity.


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## Freeloader (Jul 27, 2011)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*

Just keep booking like shit Vince, keep things PG. The more they try to force people with "YOU WILL LIKE JOHN CENA" the more people just keep on tuning out. The types of fixes the product needs are so simple and nobody is stepping up to do them. Sad.


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## Eddie Ray (Sep 6, 2012)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*



Freeloader said:


> Just keep booking like shit Vince, keep things PG. The more they try to force people with "YOU WILL LIKE JOHN CENA" the more people just keep on tuning out. The types of fixes the product needs are so simple and nobody is stepping up to do them. Sad.


I would usually agree but the majority of those who bothered to turn up last night were families with kids...without them that arena would be empty. Dayton doesn't have a massive populous of middle income families so it was poor no doubt but it would have been empty without them. 

at least now I understand why Cena got a massive pop...and Ryback...


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## Eddie Ray (Sep 6, 2012)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*

basically it was a bad business decision to go to a largely working class to low middle class city around the holiday season. money is hard to come by these days and people are saving their pennies.


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## TheF1BOB (Aug 12, 2011)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*

Good. You take out limping Cena and Titus O'Neil, this show was shit.

LISTEN TO DA FANS :vince


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## jonoaries (Mar 7, 2011)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*

Booking is a huge issue. When it comes to getting people to spend money Vince isn't doing a good job. Considering TLC's main event is about to feature the same match that was at HIAC 2 months ago nobody will buy that match either. I think he's doing a bit better than I expected because I typically expect the corporate WWE machine to slow up from October to January. 


As far as attendance is concerned I think a few more people would push to see it in person if the booking was better but I'm not sure it would be enough to matter. 


At the end of the day...Vince is releasing his Attitude Era DVD the week of Black Friday. He's about to make a grip off that alone. All Vince cares about is bringing home positive news to shareholders. TV ratings, PPV buys, DVD sales etc are just a means to do so, if one dips he will find a way to spike another. Rock will spike business AFTER the holiday rush is over meaning his first quarter will probably make up for a slow 4th anyway.


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## Lucifer34 (Feb 2, 2008)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*

Like already mentioned, this shouldn't be a surprise. With Christmas fast approaching, a lot of people are going to be saving their money for shopping, and not spending it to go to RAW. I fully expect after the Christmas season, once we're on the road to Wrestlemania 29, attendance will pick back up. Heck, if RAW came to Calgary around this time of year I probably wouldn't go, unless I had a bunch of extra money floating around. 

Plus, I don't think a lot of people want to spend $25 to sit through a three hour RAW when they can watch it at home. If the product was better then yes, maybe they would.


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## The_Jiz (Jun 1, 2006)

Lmao
And I don't buy the excuses.
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using VerticalSports.Com App


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## AlwaysBrave (Jan 6, 2010)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*

Looks half full to me.


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## TromaDogg (Apr 23, 2011)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*

The more I look at these photos, the worse I find it. Here's one the guy took from just before Punk's 'celebration' at the end, don't think it's been posted earlier in the thread.










Looks like a TNA Impact Zone level crowd, no? fpalm

No amount of excuses anybody comes up with is going to completely justify what I'm seeing here.


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## dxbender (Jul 22, 2007)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*

They were in Dayton Ohio....what do you expect. And they were in Ohio LAST WEEK as well.

It's like I've been saying forever...WWE should have TV events ONLY in cities that have pro sports teams. Raw should be in cities with at least 2 pro sports teams, SD in city with at least 1 pro sports team.

So Ohio shows would take place in a city like Cincy or Cleveland. Look at next week for example, Raw is in Lafayette! A city with a population of like 120,000 people. One that I also never heard of before outside of WWE events. 120,000 people, and WWE is expecting about 12,000 people(the arenas capacity for wrestling events) to attend? That's like 10% of the cities population all attending a single event. Their basketball games only get like 2000 people(in the same arena that the WWE event is being held in, and basketball is one of main events to happen there).


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## TheSupremeForce (Jul 15, 2011)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*

The arena was about 60% full. While the holiday season could have contributed, as well as a lack of stuff actually happened, I would wager that part of the problem is that the Dayton area doesn't have enough interest to hold two major WWE shows per year. I go to the shows, because it's not too much of a drive. 

The Nutter Center kind of sucks anyway. It has by far the worst seating of any event I've gone to. It also has narrow halls that make getting around kind of a pain, as well. They didn't immediately announce the date of the next WWE event to visit the arena, so maybe they've learned their lesson. The Nutter Center doesn't really warrant anything more than a Smackdown (though I recall the Smackdown I attended there having even fewer people in attendance).


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## TromaDogg (Apr 23, 2011)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*



dxbender said:


> They were in Dayton Ohio....what do you expect. And they were in Ohio LAST WEEK as well.
> 
> It's like I've been saying forever...WWE should have TV events ONLY in cities that have pro sports teams. Raw should be in cities with at least 2 pro sports teams, SD in city with at least 1 pro sports team.


All that would do is mask the problem and turn a blind eye to it, not eliminate it or work towards making the show better again. What good would that do long term?

Why should 'smaller' cities be ignored just because WWE is incapable of putting on a show that makes the average person actually want to pay to watch it these days?


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## obby (May 19, 2009)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*

dem cameras work their magic


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## Dec_619 (Oct 9, 2012)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*

Christ, that's not good!


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## WHAT DA HELL (Nov 10, 2011)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*

Those pictures are kinda depressing


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## El_Absoluto (Nov 30, 2011)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*

Meanwhile most cities in California only get one show per year...

Fucking stupid.


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## DJ2334 (Jan 18, 2011)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*

Sad thing is this crowd was actually louder than most crowds nowadays and it had 40% less people than usual...


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## Slaytallica (Sep 28, 2012)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*

*The ring looks soo small compared to the way it looks on TV, same thing with hockey in real life it looks 25x smaller lol.*


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## Attitude3:16 (Sep 30, 2012)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*

WWE is becoming like TNA!


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## Ether (Aug 28, 2012)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*

fuck!


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## kopitelewis (Mar 13, 2012)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*

Sorry if already posted but one of the photos has the Superstars apron on, which is taped on a Tuesday, isn't it?


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## Azuran (Feb 17, 2009)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*

Dayton, OH is a dump. I'm actually surprised all those people in the arena still live there.


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## Ndiech (Jun 16, 2012)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*

dont worry.the great one is coming.


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## Eddie Ray (Sep 6, 2012)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*

they have to pick their venues more carefully. they are picking places that are sparsely populated with low income brackets, it makes no sense business wise.


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## Old_Skool (Aug 2, 2007)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*

Time to bring it back to the Manhattan centre?


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## Hera (Oct 9, 2012)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*



dxbender said:


> So Ohio shows would take place in a city like Cincy or Cleveland. Look at next week for example, Raw is in Lafayette! A city with a population of like 120,000 people. One that I also never heard of before outside of WWE events. 120,000 people, and WWE is expecting about 12,000 people(the arenas capacity for wrestling events) to attend? That's like 10% of the cities population all attending a single event. Their basketball games only get like 2000 people(in the same arena that the WWE event is being held in, and basketball is one of main events to happen there).


Well the Cajun basketball team sucks that is why people don't go. :lol
The football team drew 20k in the last home game.

People in the surrounding areas like Baton Rouge, New Orleans and Lake Charles will come to Lafayette for Raw. The main parts you'll see on tv are sold out. The 200 and 300 level seats are what is left. The Cajundome isn't very big to begin with. It can't hold more than 13,500.


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## Eddie Ray (Sep 6, 2012)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*



Ndiech said:


> dont worry.the great one is coming.


and I couldn't give any less fucks, seriously. He is only adding to the problem of poor booking and lack of growing talent. Just look at recent booking, its all being tailored around The Rock instead of what makes sense. I cant wait until after WM so he can piss off and go back to meaningful booking that will benefit the current generation of superstars.


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## Jimmyzoso8794 (Nov 20, 2012)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*

Superstars is taped on Mondays only now. Main Event, Saturday morning slam and Smackdown are taped Tuesday.


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## Old_Skool (Aug 2, 2007)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*



Ndiech said:


> dont worry.the great one is coming.


And what happens after his 4 or 5 appearances and he buggers back off to Hollywood? We'll be right back in this very position.


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## Rusty Shackleford (Aug 9, 2011)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*

Well Raw will be here in Lafayette next week and only the 300 and 200 levels are left. My friend is going and he informed of this. They should get a decent size seeing as people from cities like Baton Rouge, New Orleans, and various other Louisiana cities will travel here to see Raw.


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## Kelly Kelly fan (Mar 14, 2010)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*

 look at all those empty seats my god now Raw isnt even selling out Vince must be pulling his hair out at what to do. Not even Ambrose can save us now


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## Stad (Apr 6, 2011)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*

That's what happens when you have a vanilla midget who can't draw as champ. :troll


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## Jimmyzoso8794 (Nov 20, 2012)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*

I'm surprised Wrestlzone, Wresling inc or any other of the Wresling news websites haven't picked up on this issue yet.


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## Old_Skool (Aug 2, 2007)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*

Just wondering would it being Thanksgiving week have anything to do with the very low turnout? Only asking as I'm from UK and I was under the impression that most people flock back and spend the holidays with their family, could atleast explain a bit of it.


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## -Sambo Italiano- (Jan 3, 2007)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*



Jimmyzoso8794 said:


> That means Ryback delivered his first promo to empty seats.


Great observation, that gave me a really good laugh. 

I wonder what he was thinking when he was looking at all those empty seats. Perhaps he was thinking "Is it me?"


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## Choke2Death (Jul 26, 2011)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*

Serves them right for the terrible booking decisions they've made all year.


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## TheSupremeForce (Jul 15, 2011)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*

I've been to a dozen WWE shows in the Ohio/Indiana area in less than two years and the ONLY one that was actually a sellout was the Rock Concert Raw right before Wrestlemania. The Smackdown I went to in the same arena as last night's Raw (the Nutter Center) had considerably fewer people than they had last night. The other Raw I attended there did somewhat better. 

I'm saying this because the WWE is well aware that attendance isn't going to be "great" at some of these venues, so it can't possibly bother them that much. Think about it. They've had a handful of shows in Dayton and Toledo in the last two years. They're not suddenly going to sell tickets a lot better. They even had a Raw in Ft. Wayne, Indiana fairly recently, so it's not like attendance is their primary concern.


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## Medo (Jun 4, 2006)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*

_*The product sucks so yea*_


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## MikeChase27 (Sep 20, 2012)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*

You buy tickets to an WWE event like 3-4 months ahead of time, So blaming it on black Friday is weak.


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## MikeChase27 (Sep 20, 2012)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*



-***** Italiano- said:


> Great observation, that gave me a really good laugh.
> 
> I wonder what he was thinking when he was looking at all those empty seats. Perhaps he was thinking "Is it me?"


He was thinking "Good thing they pipe in my chant"


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## dxbender (Jul 22, 2007)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*



ToxieDogg said:


> All that would do is mask the problem and turn a blind eye to it, not eliminate it or work towards making the show better again. What good would that do long term?
> 
> Why should 'smaller' cities be ignored just because WWE is incapable of putting on a show that makes the average person actually want to pay to watch it these days?


Part of reason could be quality of the show, but I'm sure another part has to do with the fact that people today are much more cautious about saving their money.

WWE did go PG in 2008, but a huge economic issue happened in 2008 as well. So it just made the whole WWE going PG thing look like it might have been losing money and stuff, when in reality, it wasn't so much because of the product, it's because people don't have as much money to spend.

Good or bad, if I had the chance to go to Raw every week for free(or just have so much money,that paying $100 for tickets each week for 52 weeks per year,would seem like nothing to me), I'd go for sure.


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## Kabraxal (Jun 14, 2004)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*

Sad... the WWE has the talent to do better and yet they refuse to change their product back to a true wrestling product. Vince is so dead set on braking out of "wrestling promoter" that he refuses to recognise that he sucks at everything else... and now he is sucking at being a wrestling promoter. He needs to get the hell out of the way and admit he is the problem.


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## roadkill_ (Jan 28, 2010)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*

Impact Wrestling last month;










Monday Night Wars 2 by 2015... :artest3


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## Undashing Rom (Sep 17, 2011)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*

They better do something about it. I heard that in previous times, when PPVs had low attendeance, WWE gave tickets to radio shows which gave it away only to make the crowd bigger.


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## roadkill_ (Jan 28, 2010)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*



Undashing Rom said:


> They better do something about it. I heard that in previous times, when PPVs had low attendeance, WWE gave tickets to radio shows which gave it away only to make the crowd bigger.


They did this in the European tour _a lot_ just recently.


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## N-destroy (Jul 19, 2012)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*



roadkill_ said:


> Impact Wrestling last month;
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Photoshop. :jay2


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## TheSupremeForce (Jul 15, 2011)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*



roadkill_ said:


> Impact Wrestling last month;
> 
> 
> 
> ...


According to Wikipedia, the Nutter Center holds about ten times the number of people as the Impact Zone. By my estimation, that would mean that a (well) below average Raw (from an attendance standpoint) still had roughly five times as many people as Impact in attendance. 

Now, I'm pretty sure they used "seat fillers" last night, but isn't everyone at the Impact Zone a seat filler? They were also giving Wright State students a discount, but I have no idea how much that helped attendance. I didn't exactly see a lot of college kid clusters.


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## jonoaries (Mar 7, 2011)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*



MikeChase27 said:


> You buy tickets to an WWE event like 3-4 months ahead of time, So blaming it on black Friday is weak.


Only if you know its coming. There have been more than two dozen occasions where I had no idea WWE was coming to town until a few days before. That's when the commercials run on TV and radio, there aren't many adults trolling their ticketmasters or looking at a WWE schedule looking for tickets to RAW 3-4 months ahead of time. 


If this was a PPV it would be an issue (advertising for PPVs are different that regular televised shows) but its a RAW in a relatively small city. Shit isn't that big a deal. You muhfuckas push the crisis button every week over something, if there's nothing to push the button over, you create something.


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## Awesome22 (Nov 20, 2012)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*



TheSupremeForce said:


> According to Wikipedia, the Nutter Center holds about ten times the number of people as the Impact Zone. By my estimation, that would mean that a (well) below average Raw (from an attendance standpoint) still had roughly five times as many people as Impact in attendance.
> 
> Now, I'm pretty sure they used "seat fillers" last night, but isn't everyone at the Impact Zone a seat filler? They were also giving Wright State students a discount, but I have no idea how much that helped attendance. I didn't exactly see a lot of college kid clusters.


Bound For Glory was in phoenix. And lets not forget Slammiversary in Texas where there was a really good crowd too.


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## TheSupremeForce (Jul 15, 2011)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*



Awesome22 said:


> Bound For Glory was in phoenix. And lets not forget Slammiversary in Texas where there was a really good crowd too.


That looks like a good crowd. Not a particularly fair comparison to match up major ppv's against throwaway Raws during the "down season" that take place in smallish towns, however. I wasn't even trying to take a shot at Impact. I was simply pointing out that there's a huge difference between the population of the Impact Zone and the attendance at a poorly attended Raw.


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## Buckley (Apr 19, 2011)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*

Wow that looks depressing. I couldn't imagine giving a promo to empty seats. That's fucking terrible.


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## Hotdiggity11 (Aug 24, 2006)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*

Only one way to solve this problem: Another Linda McMahon Senate run!


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## BULLY (Apr 20, 2012)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*


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## roadkill_ (Jan 28, 2010)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*



N-destroy said:


> Photoshop. :jay2


This one too? 













TheSupremeForce said:


> That looks like a good crowd. Not a particularly fair comparison to match up major ppv's against throwaway Raws during the "down season" that take place in smallish towns, however. I wasn't even trying to take a shot at Impact. I was simply pointing out that there's a huge difference between the population of the Impact Zone and the attendance at a poorly attended Raw.


We know about the Impactzone. But WWE is 60 years old and TNA is 10 years old. To say the gap is closing would be an understatement.


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## TromaDogg (Apr 23, 2011)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*



dxbender said:


> Part of reason could be quality of the show, but I'm sure another part has to do with the fact that people today are much more cautious about saving their money.
> 
> WWE did go PG in 2008, but a huge economic issue happened in 2008 as well. So it just made the whole WWE going PG thing look like it might have been losing money and stuff, when in reality, it wasn't so much because of the product, it's because people don't have as much money to spend.
> 
> Good or bad, if I had the chance to go to Raw every week for free(or just have so much money,that paying $100 for tickets each week for 52 weeks per year,would seem like nothing to me), I'd go for sure.


I'm not one of the people who blames the PG rating for the quality of the show even though (purely coincentally) I do feel that the quality of the show has declined, rather noticeably, over the last 4 years than it has done at any time before that.

Also...purely my opinion but I know a lot of other people feel the same...I don't think they went PG to make money, it was motivated by Linda McMahon's senate campaigns and a desire to make WWE suddenly look squeaky clean so that Linda's political opponents wouldn't keep throwing mud at her for the likes of things that went on during the Attitude Era, the fallout from Chris Benoit, etc. That never really worked out as we know, but since then WWE has also got itself tangled up in deals with the likes of Mattel, and also increased international TV deals on the basis of being more 'family friendly' so that PG rating won't be going away anytime soon.

WWE as a PG show back in 1997 was excellent though...better characters, compelling storylines and feuds and much better booking. There's no reason why it can't be done again. It probably won't ever get TV ratings back up to what they once were (other reasons for that, such as WCW not being on TV to provice decent competition anymore), but they'd at least have a good show again that fans _actually wanted to pay to see and be a part of_.

You make an interesting point about tickets at the end. Raw doesn't come over here to the UK much so there's usually decent interest when it does. Last year, they had it right here where I live in Liverpool, in the Liverpool Echo Arena that I can easily travel to within half an hour. I also had enough cash for tickets too. But I, and a fair few other people I know, chose not to go because _we didn't feel that the current quality of the show was worth our money and we didn't want to be stuck there for a couple of hours probably bored for most of the time_. I'm not even sure if it was free I'd go every week because once you're there you don't have the option of just switching the channel, you'd have to leave and travel all the way home if you wanted to get away from the crap they were putting in front of you.


----------



## Berzerker's Beard (Nov 20, 2012)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*

Are people really trying to justify a half empty arena?

Don't blame it on the recession. You have people out there making minimum wage carrying *iPhones*. People will spend money they don't have if it's something they want. The show just isn't a draw, it's that simple.


----------



## Rock316AE (Aug 12, 2011)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*

Why is that even surprising? Who really want to sit through a 4 hour taping with most of it as filler, commercials, randomness and overall the worst talent pool of all time. What sells tickets is the live attractions on the program and personalities who should make you want to experience it live. That's not happening. These potential paying costumers are probably watching 30 minutes of RAW every week because it became almost unbearable on every level during the 3 hour era. RAW is never sold out these days BTW, unless it's a rare case or a special attraction is there. Wouldn't surprise me if this is going to be the standard in a few years besides the wrestling cities.


----------



## TotalNonstopHonor (Aug 6, 2008)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*

The fact of the matter is that you guys really don't understand the business of professional wrestling

Say that Raw drew 5,000 people, which is a fair estimate. If the average ticket price for the event was $25 (Which I'd say is a fair estimate), they drew $125,000 for the gate. 

WWE is a global powerhouse now and their main source of revenue is no longer dependent on the live gate like it once was. Lucrative marketing deals, sponsorships, merchandise, and television deals now account for a lot of their revenue. They need a venue for Raw, and they're not able to exhaust their most popular areas. As it is, they're already exploiting the northeast this holiday season. Within the past 6 months, this is what New York/New Jersey/Connecticut has had:

6/17: No Way Out
6/18: Monday Night Raw
10/22: Monday Night Raw
12/10: Monday Night Raw
12/11: Smackdown Taping
12/16- TLC
12/19: Smackdown live event
12/27: Raw live event
12/28: Smackdown live event

Keep in mind, I'm excluding several house shows that I can't find the records for. They're profiting tons off of these shows, and a full arena is not indicative of how profitable a show is. Poor attendance can be attributed to many things, and while it's always nice to have a full house, it doesn't mean that they're in financial peril.


----------



## itssoeasy23 (Jul 19, 2011)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*

THEIR GOING OUT OF BUSINESS!!!!!


----------



## TotalNonstopHonor (Aug 6, 2008)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*



Rock316AE said:


> Why is that even surprising? Who really want to sit through a 4 hour taping with most of it as filler, commercials, randomness and overall the worst talent pool of all time. What sells tickets is the live attractions on the program and personalities who should make you want to experience it live. That's not happening. These potential paying costumers are probably watching 30 minutes of RAW every week because it became almost unbearable on every level during the 3 hour era. RAW is never sold out these days BTW, unless it's a rare case or a special attraction is there. Wouldn't surprise me if this is going to be the standard in a few years besides the wrestling cities.


Tons of people would want to sit through it. The problem is that they're in Dayton, Ohio, which is one of the most depressed economic areas in the nation. They have a median income in the $20,000 range. Compare that to bigger cities in the surrounding area (St. Louis, Milwaukee, Detroit, Cleveland, etc), and it pales in comparison. They drew a crowd, not a sellout, but one that made them profit. They have a standard model of business and when they don't profit, they typically don't return often. They've returned to the location more than several times in the past few years, and they're definitely having positive returns.

Your personal opinion is spilling over into reality. Many, many people enjoy Monday Night Raw. Besides a 3-4 year boom period in professional wrestling, and a few years in the mid-late 1980s, there has never been a period of sustained success where arenas sold out EVERY night. Wrestling is cyclical. 

The Attitude Era isn't the norm, it's the exception to the rule.


----------



## shought321 (Aug 5, 2012)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*

I looked at them pictures and woke the FUCK up!


----------



## TotalNonstopHonor (Aug 6, 2008)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*



Berzerker's Beard said:


> Are people really trying to justify a half empty arena?
> 
> Don't blame it on the recession. You have people out there making minimum wage carrying *iPhones*. People will spend money they don't have if it's something they want. The show just isn't a draw, it's that simple.


If there's a justification to be made, absolutely.

The show may not be a HUGE draw in the area, but they certainly filled half the arena. Just because the event wasn't at 100% capacity doesn't mean that they didn't profit.


----------



## TotalNonstopHonor (Aug 6, 2008)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*

To the people comparing TNA to WWE, do you even think about things?

WWE tours YEAR ROUND. They don't have a permanent home where they conduct their weekly TV tapings. If they did, you best believe that they'd fill a 1,100 seat arena for Raw and Smackdown weekly. When you have talent like Angle, Sting, Hardy, Hogan, etc. on the top of the card, you best be filling that. There are some bloated contracts, but they help the company in many ways.

They go on the road occasionally, and usually only for 2-3 PPV events each year. They book arenas that have maximum capacities of 5,000, and sometimes 7,500. To keep this in perspective, WWE books arenas that NBA and NHL teams play in that have maximum capacities of over 15,000 routinely for a PPV. The Barclays Center, which is hosting TLC, is one of the smaller venues that they're run for a PPV with a capacity at just over 13,500 for a wrestling event. TNA couldn't sell that out at this stage of their business.

It's nice that TNA can do it, but they're not constantly touring. Basic laws of supply and demand. Very low supply of the product leads to an increase in demand when they finally do come around. Who knows the next time TNA will have a PPV in Phoenix? It may be years.


----------



## itssoeasy23 (Jul 19, 2011)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*



TotalNonstopHonor said:


> Tons of people would want to sit through it. The problem is that they're in Dayton, Ohio, which is one of the most depressed economic areas in the nation. They have a median income in the $20,000 range. Compare that to bigger cities in the surrounding area (St. Louis, Milwaukee, Detroit, Cleveland, etc), and it pales in comparison. They drew a crowd, not a sellout, but one that made them profit. They have a standard model of business and when they don't profit, they typically don't return often. They've returned to the location more than several times in the past few years, and they're definitely having positive returns.
> 
> Your personal opinion is spilling over into reality. Many, many people enjoy Monday Night Raw. Besides a 3-4 year boom period in professional wrestling, and a few years in the mid-late 1980s, there has never been a period of sustained success where arenas sold out EVERY night. Wrestling is cyclical.
> 
> The Attitude Era isn't the norm, it's the exception to the rule.


Logic.

This man speaks it.


----------



## Alim (Mar 3, 2007)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*

Whether the arena was half full or not, the crowd last night was very good


----------



## miles berg (Jun 12, 2010)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*



jonoaries said:


> Its the beginning of the consumer season. People saving money to go shopping for Christmas and other things. Only American football can survive the holiday season because its ingrained as a holiday tradition. Wrestling surrendered the holidays a long time ago. People are not doing their "usual" stuff unless they have disposable income which unfortunately many in this country don't.
> 
> There's going to be quite a few people working Fridays...because of Black Friday, a relatively new phenomenon which is basically becoming a holiday in itself.


The NBA is setting attendance records right now.

It's just the WWE.


----------



## dxbender (Jul 22, 2007)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*



miles berg said:


> The NBA is setting attendance records right now.
> 
> It's just the WWE.


It's easy to set attendance record when all your big markets, are currently the "super teams" of the league. NBA is in a super team era, so all the main cities like New York,Miami,Boston,LA are dominating,so fans jump on board.


And there's still many markets that have successful teams that don't have good attendance. This year for example, Bucks are 4th in East, yet bottom 5 in attendance. In NFL, Tampa tied for 9th best record, yet attendance is bottom of the league.


----------



## Stad (Apr 6, 2011)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*



TotalNonstopHonor said:


> To the people comparing TNA to WWE, do you even think about things?
> 
> WWE tours YEAR ROUND. They don't have a permanent home where they conduct their weekly TV tapings. If they did, you best believe that they'd fill a 1,100 seat arena for Raw and Smackdown weekly. When you have talent like Angle, Sting, Hardy, Hogan, etc. on the top of the card, you best be filling that. There are some bloated contracts, but they help the company in many ways.
> 
> ...


This dude is owning this whole thread lol. Made Rock316 look like a damn fool :lmao

+rep.


----------



## reDREDD (Oct 12, 2008)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*

damn look at all those empty seats

better take the cyanide pills


----------



## WrestlingforEverII (Jan 31, 2011)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*



TotalNonstopHonor said:


> Tons of people would want to sit through it. The problem is that they're in Dayton, Ohio, which is one of the most depressed economic areas in the nation. They have a median income in the $20,000 range. Compare that to bigger cities in the surrounding area (St. Louis, Milwaukee, Detroit, Cleveland, etc), and it pales in comparison. They drew a crowd, not a sellout, but one that made them profit. They have a standard model of business and when they don't profit, they typically don't return often. They've returned to the location more than several times in the past few years, and they're definitely having positive returns.
> 
> Your personal opinion is spilling over into reality. Many, many people enjoy Monday Night Raw. Besides a 3-4 year boom period in professional wrestling, and a few years in the mid-late 1980s, there has never been a period of sustained success where arenas sold out EVERY night. Wrestling is cyclical.
> 
> The Attitude Era isn't the norm, it's the exception to the rule.


WWE is still terrible right now.


----------



## reDREDD (Oct 12, 2008)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*

being terrible has nothing to do with his point, hes right

even in the golden era they struggled to fill many arenas. vince had a nervous breakdown in wrestlemania 4 where only 4 of his wrestlers could get a reaction. many house shows and tapings just didnt sell and they had to end up avoiding those areas next time

with the territories it was different, but that was more due to the family mentality and community feel. just like how the wwe usually does well at madison square garden and the boston garden

now dont get me started on how Jim Crockett promotions and later WCW struggled to fill the arenas. there is a reason they started filming in the disney studio and just taking the money


----------



## WrestlingforEverII (Jan 31, 2011)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*



Redead said:


> being terrible has nothing to do with his point, hes right
> 
> even in the golden era they struggled to fill many arenas. vince had a nervous breakdown in wrestlemania 4 where only 4 of his wrestlers could get a reaction. many house shows and tapings just didnt sell and they had to end up avoiding those areas next time
> 
> ...


Thats nice.

I don't care though, WWE is still terrible right now and thats a good enough reason as to why people dont show up to shows at times. If there was ever a time where that was a legit reason, its now.


----------



## TotalNonstopHonor (Aug 6, 2008)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*



WrestlingforEverII said:


> WWE is still terrible right now.


Is this your form of a rebuttal? 

The only thing that you're expressing is your current disdain for the product while trying to pass it off as a fact.

As a matter of fact, I love what the WWE has been doing lately. Whether or not you choose to read what I'm going to type next is going to be apparent by your reply.

People complain incessantly about the need for "attitude", how the Attitude Era was the pinnacle of professional wrestling and how nothing will ever top the era. The era had a culmination of over 20 years of stars reaching the twilight, prime, or early stages of their career. Many of the stars had been around for well over a decade, and there was enough talent to support two full global promotions. 

Well, what happens when one company swallows the other company, the stars in their twilight retire, some of the stars in their prime enter their twilight, and there are years of rehashed story lines trying to capitalize on an era that had long passed? You're left with WWE 2005-2008. Once John Cena went down with an injury in 2008 and Shawn Michaels Vs. Chris Jericho was headlining Raw, you need to realize that the only reason that it was headlining isn't because it was a brilliant feud (it was), but because it was out of necessity. There was little to no build in talent over the previous years, with talent like MVP, Kennedy, Carlito, Masters, and other stars that they banked on failing to live up to expectations. It's a business, and as in all business, past results are not indicative of future success.

There was the inherent need to increase the rate of entertaining talent on the main rosters, and so there was a huge buffer period that saw many new stars show up on ECW and get pushed to Raw and Smackdown VERY quickly. You can see this in 2009, when a lot was thrown out (Ricky Ortiz, Abraham Washington show, Escobar, etc.). The thing is, these people weren't untalented, they were the subjects of a downtime in wrestling and they weren't given anything creative to work with. The patience of the company needed to be secondary because of WrestleMania season looming.

In 2010 we finally began to see a rebirth of credible talent, largely thanks to NXT. Looking at NXT season 1, you see a large chunk of the current mid-card-main event: Wade Barrett, Daniel Bryan, Justin Gabriel, Heath Slater, Darren Young, David Otunga, and Ryback have all been instrumental figures in the company. Do you realize how huge it is to throw 8 stars on TV and have 7 of them stick, still active on television 2 1/2 years later?

Characters and personalities take a long time to develop if one isn't given an extraordinary gimmick and push. In the Attitude Era, you had senseless story lines compiled with TOP talent to make it work. These men had been wrestling for years, many of them still having had time in the now defunct territories that saw them wrestling 6-times a week for years on end. The talent now are gaining experience, character, and still learning the business. There's a reason why Bryan, Punk, Ambrose, and Rollins are all so highly regarded: They've showed excellence in their craft.

It's incredible to watch the entire roster progress, and I believe that by 2015 WWE will be in a fantastic place. Their current product is improving week-by-week, and they're shown great scope with storyline continuity and a mix of old and new stars. Just this year alone, we've seen Punk complete a brilliant one year reign as champion, Sheamus progress and have a nice reign as champion, Daniel Bryan develop a character (Although by mistake, Austin 3:16 wasn't planned either), and a mix that could very well lead to the perfect storm: Veterans like The Rock, Steve Austin, Triple H, The Undertaker, Brock Lesnar, and John Cena, all with links to the Attitude Era, are around. The upper-midcard is slowly becoming filled with newer stars, the mid-card is entirely new, and a bunch of new faces will soon be infused on both brands.

The product is a result of years of work, and they realized how much work needed to be done in 2009. Comparing that product to today, you'll appreciate just how far the company has come. The product is extremely entertaining, and to compare it to the Attitude Era is foolish.


----------



## WrestlingforEverII (Jan 31, 2011)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*



TotalNonstopHonor said:


> Is this your form of a rebuttal?
> 
> The only thing that you're expressing is your current disdain for the product while trying to pass it off as a fact.
> 
> ...


Nice wall of text. Good pointless history lesson telling me things I already know. WWE is still terrible right now. I am not talking about 2015. I am talking about right now and the state of this company is terrible. Will they be better in the future? Maybe, but I am not talking about that. A lot of other people feel the same and I can see this as to why ratings, attendance will be low at times. Your economy theory earlier may play a factor to the attendance news but this company is not hot at the moment. Again at the moment. I dont care about the Attitude Era being the be all end all and all that other mess. You can move right off with that. I care about whats going on right now and what I see right now, is a sad company. Everything you put about the future can and should pay off, but even then WWE does questionable things that jeopardize that. Which just proves my point that right now, they are just off 95% of the time.


----------



## reDREDD (Oct 12, 2008)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*

yes. we get it. its terrible

whats your point


----------



## TotalNonstopHonor (Aug 6, 2008)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*



WrestlingforEverII said:


> Nice wall of text. Good pointless history lesson telling me things I already know. WWE is still terrible right now. I am not talking about 2015. I am talking about right now and the state of this company is terrible. Will they be better in the future? Maybe, but I am not talking about that. A lot of other people feel the same and I can see this as to why ratings, attendance will be low at times. Your economy theory earlier may play a factor to the attendance news but this company is not hot at the moment. Again at the moment. I dont care about the Attitude Era being the be all end all and all that other mess. You can move right off with that. I care about whats going on right now and what I see right now, is a sad company. Everything you put about the future can and should pay off, but even then WWE does questionable things that jeopardize that. Which just proves my point that right now, they are just off 95% of the time.


Ratings are right in line with where they have been. Although the numerical rating may be lower, you have to account for the total number of television sets in the US rising every year. There are now more people watching TV than ever before, so while a 3.5 rating in 2007 may have equaled 4.2 millions viewers, a 2.9 today could just as easily equal 4.0 million viewers. The rating is just a percentage of people watching the show in accordance with the amount of people watching TV. That's not accounting for those who view it on Hulu, Youtube, or DVR.

It's not pointless, and you saying WWE is terrible isn't going to make me or anyone else who likes it believe that it's the truth. I'm not telling you that you have to believe that WWE is in a great place right now, but all you have done is continue to say that they're terrible without so much as giving me a few reasons as to WHY they're terrible. If it's attendance and ratings, that's not a valid answer because that's not your point of view.


----------



## WrestlingforEverII (Jan 31, 2011)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*



TotalNonstopHonor said:


> Ratings are right in line with where they have been. Although the numerical rating may be lower, you have to account for the total number of television sets in the US rising every year. There are now more people watching TV than ever before, so while a 3.5 rating in 2007 may have equaled 4.2 millions viewers, a 2.9 today could just as easily equal 4.0 million viewers. The rating is just a percentage of people watching the show in accordance with the amount of people watching TV. That's not accounting for those who view it on Hulu, Youtube, or DVR.
> 
> It's not pointless, and you saying WWE is terrible isn't going to make me or anyone else who likes it believe that it's the truth. I'm not telling you that you have to believe that WWE is in a great place right now, but all you have done is continue to say that they're terrible without so much as giving me a few reasons as to WHY they're terrible. If it's attendance and ratings, that's not a valid answer because that's not your point of view.


It is pointless. You can like what you want. I dont care. WWE is terrible right now at this very moment. Attendance and ratings are a very minute reason why to me, again at this moment. They are down and its not all because of what you put in your first paragraph. People are genuinely moving away from the product, its not that hard to believe or say. They could be grooming themselves for a better future, they could be in a rebuilding stage but again, at this moment they still make questionable decisions that hinders any work being done for its future. As I see it at this moment in time, this company is not kicking into high gear like they should overall, and its terrible. They still make money, they still have an audience but I can tell its down. Will it get better, they have potential to do so, they have the talent, but right now I am not seeing it.


----------



## TotalNonstopHonor (Aug 6, 2008)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*



WrestlingforEverII said:


> It is pointless. You can like what you want. I dont care. WWE is terrible right now at this very moment. Attendance and ratings are a very minute reason why to me, again at this moment. They are down and its not all because of what you put in your first paragraph. People are genuinely moving away from the product, its not that hard to believe or say. They could be grooming themselves for a better future, they could be in a rebuilding stage but again, at this moment they still make questionable decisions that hinders any work being done for its future. As I see it at this moment in time, this company is not kicking into high gear like they should overall, and its terrible. They still make money, they still have an audience but I can tell its down. Will it get better, they have potential to do so, they have the talent, but right now I am not seeing it.


You have no substance to what you're saying. You can point to anything, any argument, whether political, economical, casual sports talk, and deem it pointless if you wish. You're basing your entire premise on the fact that they're terrible without so much as providing a single reason why. The only thing you've mentioned is that ratings and attendance are down, which should have no direct effect on your enjoyment of the product unless you're an employee of the company who's looking at it through a subjective lens that you need to improve.

It's not hard to believe or say that people are moving away from the product? If that's so, can you explain to me how WrestleMania had the largest amount of buys for a Mania in HISTORY? Can you explain to me how there are now more eyes on the product worldwide through advancing technologies in other countries who also contribute to the company's economic wellbeing? 

Why should they be kicking anything into high gear, and what do you mean by that? They have no direct competition, they've essentially monopolized professional wrestling in America and they can take their time with developing stars and stories instead of the hot shot style that the Attitude Era was driven by, and the same style that eventually no longer worked and forced them to change their business model.

You can tell it's down? Do you work for the company? Are you a shareholder with information? You can't just make blind assumptions without true facts of the situation.


----------



## Azuran (Feb 17, 2009)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*



WrestlingforEverII said:


> Nice wall of text. Good pointless history lesson telling me things I already know. WWE is still terrible right now. I am not talking about 2015. I am talking about right now and the state of this company is terrible. Will they be better in the future? Maybe, but I am not talking about that. A lot of other people feel the same and I can see this as to why ratings, attendance will be low at times. Your economy theory earlier may play a factor to the attendance news but this company is not hot at the moment. Again at the moment. I dont care about the Attitude Era being the be all end all and all that other mess. You can move right off with that. I care about whats going on right now and what I see right now, is a sad company. Everything you put about the future can and should pay off, but even then WWE does questionable things that jeopardize that. Which just proves my point that right now, they are just off 95% of the time.


Paragraphs =/= wall of text


----------



## WrestlingforEverII (Jan 31, 2011)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*



TotalNonstopHonor said:


> You have no substance to what you're saying. You can point to anything, any argument, whether political, economical, casual sports talk, and deem it pointless if you wish. You're basing your entire premise on the fact that they're terrible without so much as providing a single reason why. The only thing you've mentioned is that ratings and attendance are down, which should have no direct effect on your enjoyment of the product unless you're an employee of the company who's looking at it through a subjective lens that you need to improve.
> 
> It's not hard to believe or say that people are moving away from the product? If that's so, can you explain to me how WrestleMania had the largest amount of buys for a Mania in HISTORY? Can you explain to me how there are now more eyes on the product worldwide through advancing technologies in other countries who also contribute to the company's economic wellbeing?
> 
> ...


More pointless text. Terrible text.

WWE is still terrible. 

I know about the business I work there and own stock. But its all I have to feed my family so I will stick with the WWE till the death, even if its in a terrible state right now. So terrible. Terrible. Man its terrible.


----------



## TotalNonstopHonor (Aug 6, 2008)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*

The following information can be found with a basic Google search for WWE's quarterly earnings. Since the second quarter is what has been released, I'll compare 2012 with 2011.

PPV buys (2011 Vs. 2012):
WrestleMania 27: 1,059,000 buys
WrestleMania 28: 1,217,000 buys

Extreme Rules 2011: 209,000
Extreme Rules 2012:2 63,000

Over The Limit 2011: 140,000
Over The Limit 2012: 167,000

Capitol Punishment 2011: 170,000
Capitol Punishment 2012: 194,000

PPV buys were up all across the board. Television free rights gradually increased from $32.0M to $32.4M, an increase nevertheless. 

Merchandising was actually down, but that was due to WrestleMania's placement on the calendar year being effected by the first quarter ending and the second quarter beginning, and even so the results were less than $1M. 

Home video sales increased by $300,000
WWE.com revenues increased by well over $1M thanks to new deals with YouTube and increased website traffic (Which would indeed mean an increase in interest in the product)

Areas that decreased included WWE Magazine, which can be attributed to lower newsstand interest, WWE Studios productions (lack of releases/interest, which doesn't effect WWE's weekly product), and...here's the kicker:

Live event revenues increased from 2011 to 2012, showing that, in fact, there hasn't been a decrease in the interest of the product.

Shocking, I know. Next time you assume, please enforce it with real numbers. They exist for a reason.


----------



## TotalNonstopHonor (Aug 6, 2008)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*



WrestlingforEverII said:


> More pointless text. Terrible text.
> 
> WWE is still terrible.
> 
> I know about the business I work there and own stock. But its all I have to feed my family so I will stick with the WWE till the death, even if its in a terrible state right now. So terrible. Terrible. Man its terrible.


You're ridiculous. You just dismiss everything I say while I give you credence and try to talk about the issue at hand and relate it to economics and real numbers rather than general assumptions.

Believe what you want, but remember that nobody is forcing you to watch it or be miserable over it. 

The sarcasm is a bit much.


----------



## WrestlingforEverII (Jan 31, 2011)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*



TotalNonstopHonor said:


> You're ridiculous. You just dismiss everything I say while I give you credence and try to talk about the issue at hand and relate it to economics and real numbers rather than general assumptions.
> 
> Believe what you want, but remember that nobody is forcing you to watch it or be miserable over it.
> 
> The sarcasm is a bit much.


LOL I've been pretty ridiculous from the start. 

Good responses though. A+ work.

Repped.


----------



## Jingoro (Jun 6, 2012)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*

i think it's terrible too, but i enjoy it anyway. it's amazing what lowered expectations do for increasing viewing pleasure. i seriously think the only well done portion of raw was the aj/ziggler confrontation in the men's locker room. that shit was well done and kinda edgy. 2 hours and 20 minutes had about 2 minutes of actual good tv in it. in my book, that's pretty terrible.


----------



## Oakue (Jul 16, 2012)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*

I was going to say WCW Thunder like...but to be fair I then realized as long as WWE draws more than 100 it wouldn't be a fair comparison.


----------



## TromaDogg (Apr 23, 2011)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*



TotalNonstopHonor said:


> Is this your form of a rebuttal?


Well, if you'll only accept walls of text as a rebuttal, then I'll try to oblige. 



TotalNonstopHonor said:


> The only thing that you're expressing is your current disdain for the product while trying to pass it off as a fact.
> 
> As a matter of fact, I love what the WWE has been doing lately. Whether or not you choose to read what I'm going to type next is going to be apparent by your reply.


The 'fact' is that WWE's ratings are dropping to their lowest ever. You can defend that all you like but it doesn't change it. There's been a noticeable drop this year alone since the 3 hour shows started, with ratings regularly in the mid 2s now. It's 2012. People didn't just magically start DVR'ing and watching the show online this year.



TotalNonstopHonor said:


> People complain incessantly about the need for "attitude", how the Attitude Era was the pinnacle of professional wrestling and how nothing will ever top the era. The era had a culmination of over 20 years of stars reaching the twilight, prime, or early stages of their career. Many of the stars had been around for well over a decade, and there was enough talent to support two full global promotions.
> 
> Well, what happens when one company swallows the other company, the stars in their twilight retire, some of the stars in their prime enter their twilight, and there are years of rehashed story lines trying to capitalize on an era that had long passed? You're left with WWE 2005-2008. Once John Cena went down with an injury in 2008 and Shawn Michaels Vs. Chris Jericho was headlining Raw, you need to realize that the only reason that it was headlining isn't because it was a brilliant feud (it was), but because it was out of necessity. There was little to no build in talent over the previous years, with talent like MVP, Kennedy, Carlito, Masters, and other stars that they banked on failing to live up to expectations. It's a business, and as in all business, past results are not indicative of future success.


And how exactly did guys like MVP and Mr Kennedy fail to live up to expectations? MVP was very popular and was the victim of extremely poor booking. Mr Kennedy was also massively popular...it's been cited that he was injury prone and of course he had a Wellness Policy violaton, but there's strong rumours suggesting that Randy Orton had a lot to do with his release thanks to a botched move during one of their matches. It still doesn't make a massive deal of sense to me that after him being out of action for months making a movie, he would suddenly be released only 4 days after his return to Raw. Remember Muhammad Hassan? He was an _extremely_ over heel and excellent wrestler, completely fucked over by the 'terrorist' storyline they involved him in.

I feel that there is a lot more to do with extremely poor booking for the majority of these guys and political backstage BS than them 'failing to live up to expectations'.



TotalNonstopHonor said:


> There was the inherent need to increase the rate of entertaining talent on the main rosters, and so there was a huge buffer period that saw many new stars show up on ECW and get pushed to Raw and Smackdown VERY quickly. You can see this in 2009, when a lot was thrown out (Ricky Ortiz, Abraham Washington show, Escobar, etc.). The thing is, these people weren't untalented, they were the subjects of a downtime in wrestling and they weren't given anything creative to work with. The patience of the company needed to be secondary because of WrestleMania season looming.


Exactly. There wasn't too much wrong with those guys. Creative and booking massively failed them. As it's massively failing the talent they have now. Today's wrestlers aren't the problem at all. It's the material they've been given to work with.



TotalNonstopHonor said:


> In 2010 we finally began to see a rebirth of credible talent, largely thanks to NXT. Looking at NXT season 1, you see a large chunk of the current mid-card-main event: Wade Barrett, Daniel Bryan, Justin Gabriel, Heath Slater, Darren Young, David Otunga, and Ryback have all been instrumental figures in the company. Do you realize how huge it is to throw 8 stars on TV and have 7 of them stick, still active on television 2 1/2 years later?


Asides from the very short lived Nexus angle (I don't really count 'New Nexus' as it was even shorter lived), only Wade Barrett and Daniel Bryan really made an impact, and asides from an early push Wade's been stuck in mid card hell ever since. Justin Gabriel and Heath Slater haven't been on TV a great deal...Heath has been involved with 3MB recently but that's been nowhere to be seen for the last fortnight. David Otunga is a lower mid card jobber (although I find him entertaining in his 'Law Office' videos) and Darran Young has only recently resurfaced in Prime Time Players. Speaking of recent resurfaces, Skip Sheffield only returned as Ryback at the beginning of this year after being out with an injury for a year and a half, and has only reached the main event recently pretty much out of necessity as Cena was injured. None of these guys have been what I would call an 'instrumental figure in the company' at all, asides from Daniel Bryan.



TotalNonstopHonor said:


> It's incredible to watch the entire roster progress, and I believe that by 2015 WWE will be in a fantastic place. Their current product is improving week-by-week, and they're shown great scope with storyline continuity and a mix of old and new stars. Just this year alone, we've seen Punk complete a brilliant one year reign as champion, Sheamus progress and have a nice reign as champion, Daniel Bryan develop a character (Although by mistake, Austin 3:16 wasn't planned either), and a mix that could very well lead to the perfect storm: Veterans like The Rock, Steve Austin, Triple H, The Undertaker, Brock Lesnar, and John Cena, all with links to the Attitude Era, are around. The upper-midcard is slowly becoming filled with newer stars, the mid-card is entirely new, and a bunch of new faces will soon be infused on both brands.
> 
> The product is a result of years of work, and they realized how much work needed to be done in 2009. Comparing that product to today, you'll appreciate just how far the company has come. The product is extremely entertaining, and to compare it to the Attitude Era is foolish.


Except the current product isn't improving week by week (that's only _your opinion_ not _fact_), it's slowly getting worse (which _isn't_ just my opinion, the ratings and majority disdain I see for Raw everywhere I look online appear to strongly reflect that). Punk hasn't had a 'brilliant' year as champion, he's barely main evented either Raw or PPVs and has been overshadowed the entire time by John Cena. They're not showing great scope with storyline continuity at all....why did AJ have to resign as Raw GM for 'fraternising' with a superstar only to be replaced by Vickie Guerrero who (kayfabe) has made an entire career out of 'fraternising' with superstars? fpalm This is one of the major storylines on Raw at the moment, BTW. I really wish I could share your optimism about the product being 'extremely entertaining' but again, that's just what you referred to in an earlier post yourself as 'your personal opinion spilling over into reality' and what I'll refer to as 'expressing your current enthusiasm for the product while trying to pass it off as fact'. It simply isn't true for many other people like myself.


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## DesolationRow (Oct 11, 2009)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*

*TotalNonstopHonor* nailed the matter in this thread. 

That isn't to say the product is wildly entertaining at this moment in time, but everything *TotalNonstopHonor* goes over concerning WWE's business model, attendance expectations and general financial state is accurate. Futhermore, I can't think of a single market in all of North America as exhausted by WWE as Dayton, Ohio and the surrounding region. WWE is constantly going to the Nutter Center and to cities like Cincinnati, Columbus, Indianapolis, Fort Wayne, Cleveland, Toledo and others in that general area.


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## Cindy76Cena4ever (Nov 21, 2012)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*

People are not going to pay theirr hard erned money tio see Punk weasel his way out of matches. WWE needs to step in and put like a cage structure around hime so he cant cheat and his friends cant get invoilved.


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## SrsLii (May 2, 2011)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*

WWE needs to stop spending 10 months out of the year touring the same 6-7 states and maybe they'd have better attendance. If all they're going to do is tour the South and NE of course people will stop going, they're burned out. They need to bring their asses over to the West Coast, spend a lot more time in Canada, and so forth.

Not to say the product being shit doesn't also hurt sales because obviously the more exciting your show is the more people will go to it. 

Is it something they need to fix? Yeah. Is it something that will singlehandedly kill the company? No. The thing that concerns me most about it is the lack of fucks given when deciding where to go and when to go there, and that only because it's pretty representative of how the company in general is going right now. No fucks given anywhere. Except Vince, and he gives so many fucks he's fucking his company to death.


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## Randy Orton Trapper Of The Year (Aug 11, 2010)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*

Nice "SAve_Us_Ambrose" post. people blame shit on anyone that is liked by a bunch of people.


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## Cliffy (Mar 31, 2011)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*

TNH makes it sound as if WWE has long term planning.


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## Epididymis (Aug 3, 2006)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*

It's fucking Dayton, Ohio.


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## ben_fletch (Dec 13, 2011)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*

Only an 11,000 ish capacity as well. Bad times


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## ben_fletch (Dec 13, 2011)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*



moonmop said:


> I was going to say WCW Thunder like...but to be fair I then realized as long as WWE draws more than 100 it wouldn't be a fair comparison.


Thunder drew 100 fans once? Really? Or are you being silly?


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## Starbuck (Apr 11, 2008)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*










*ZOMG DA DUBYA DUBYA E IS DYIN*


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## miles berg (Jun 12, 2010)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*

It's the worst I've ever seen RAW but in was a WCW fan that didn't start watching WWE until 1999 when WCW started going downhill fast. 


And even then WCW was a lot better than what WWE is putting out these days.

But so is TNA and that's why I watch it every week. It's just a lot better.


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## Ziggler Mark (Jan 1, 2012)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*



Starbuck said:


> *ZOMG DA DUBYA DUBYA E IS DYIN*


in fairness, it's hard for them to NOT sell out Wrestlemania. It's such a gigantic spectacle these days, if they didnt sell out, I'd be surprised. 

I have friends who dont even watch wrestling that were having wrestlemania parties. But once the event ended, they stopped giving a fuck about WWE until next WM.


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## Oakue (Jul 16, 2012)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*



ben_fletch said:


> Thunder drew 100 fans once? Really? Or are you being silly?


Hyperbole


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## dxbender (Jul 22, 2007)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*



Ziggler Mark said:


> in fairness, it's hard for them to NOT sell out Wrestlemania. It's such a gigantic spectacle these days, if they didnt sell out, I'd be surprised.
> 
> I have friends who dont even watch wrestling that were having wrestlemania parties. But once the event ended, they stopped giving a fuck about WWE until next WM.


That's the same about the superbowl lol. Many people don't care at all about football or anything, but they'll gladly watch the superbowl(it also helps when you advertise awhole bunch of celebrities appearing at halftime and stuff).



Starbuck said:


> *ZOMG DA DUBYA DUBYA E IS DYIN*


I never even saw that view of the WM28 arena, looks real cool to see the WM stage. The best part was the part I never knew existed until I saw this photo lol.

And it's funny how people always end up being like "WWE drew ___ ratings" or "WWE had ___ attend a show" and act like WWE is dying. WWE makes millions of dollars in profits per week,don't get what all this panic is about.


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## Kelly Kelly fan (Mar 14, 2010)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*

I thought Smackdown was the suffering brand by house shows not selling out but looks like the same is happening to Raw OMG


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## Oakue (Jul 16, 2012)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*

By the way I bet you audience attendance on a weekly basis like this is barely anything in their annual profit. Much of their profit comes from merchandise, and other revenue streams.

Besides I'm willing to bet you Wrestlemania profits match or even exceed every other show they put for the other 364 days, combined.

The fact that half a Raw or Smackdown arena is empty in the middle of November is not a big deal.


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## FingazMc (Sep 1, 2008)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*

Is there no way there was a good reason for it? Like that part of the arena was shut off? If they didn't sell all the tickets then that is something that needs to be fixed asap, more tours of England should do it


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## Vin Ghostal (Jul 4, 2009)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*

Instead of mocking McMahon or cheering that WWE deserves this sort of attendance...be careful what you cheer about. This is an isolated incident now, but I can't say many recent numbers have suggested WWE is on the uptick, 2012 ppv numbers aside.


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## N-destroy (Jul 19, 2012)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*



Starbuck said:


> *ZOMG DA DUBYA DUBYA E IS DYIN*


It's wrestlemania. Not the same at all.


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## The Boy Wonder (Mar 29, 2008)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*

This is a reflection of CM Punk's reign.


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## Das Wunderberlyn (Jan 18, 2011)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*



The Boy Wonder said:


> This is a reflection of CM Punk's reign.



(Y)

of course his marks will come out guns blazing to defend the 'best in the world'


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## Pol93 (Jul 13, 2012)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*

I'd hate to see how this place would have reacted in 1998 after Over the Edge. Less than 10,000 people in a 14,000 seat arena, with an upper stand visibily covered over. "AUSTIN CAN'T DRAW, WWF TO DIE, HOGAN CAN DRAW SO HE IS GOAT DRAW DRAW DRAW *smiley face of Hogan*"


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## peejay (Nov 9, 2008)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*



The Boy Wonder said:


> This is a reflection of CM Punk's reign.


Yeah because the champion is the sole reason for bad ratings and attendance....


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## Kelly Kelly fan (Mar 14, 2010)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*

Vince needs to get Dwayne back to WWE asap and get butts in seats


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## dougnums (Jul 24, 2012)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*



Kelly Kelly fan said:


> Vince needs to get Dwayne back to WWE asap and get butts in seats


They need to stop calling the Rock 'Dwayne'. Yeah, we all already know that's his name, but it takes away from the experience. Now that's something that Vince needs to do.


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## Grass420 (Jul 22, 2011)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*

For the people blaming it on the christmas season.. what about previous years? howcome this didn't happen in the previous years? Christmas shopping takes place every year. the economy has not been good for years.. 

also.. just because it's in a town with low income does not matter.. often if the show is good, fans from surrounding cities will attend.

It's WWE's piss poor booking.. Most fans cannot even sit through it at home, what makes you think they would pay money to watch it in person?

WWE needs to shake things up


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## Even.Flow.NYC (Dec 8, 2010)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*

The crowd up front looks insanely crowded as if the fans from the other side moved. It only looks like that for a sec. I wonder what actually happened


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## hardysno1fan (Apr 2, 2007)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*

Honestly I don't think it's a big deal. If it happens 2-3 weeks in a row then you know there is a problem but as it is, its just a blip.


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## Kelly Kelly fan (Mar 14, 2010)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*

I think when fans started taking their seats Vince must of realised the camera side was empty while the other side was crowded so they obviously must of told everyone to move to the other side and this is why the photo looks like that with the camera side filled and the none camera side is empty


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## D.M.N. (Apr 26, 2008)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*



TotalNonstopHonor said:


> Ratings are right in line with where they have been. Although the numerical rating may be lower, you have to account for the total number of television sets in the US rising every year. There are now more people watching TV than ever before, so while a 3.5 rating in 2007 may have equaled 4.2 millions viewers, a 2.9 today could just as easily equal 4.0 million viewers. The rating is just a percentage of people watching the show in accordance with the amount of people watching TV. That's not accounting for those who view it on Hulu, Youtube, or DVR.
> 
> It's not pointless, and you saying WWE is terrible isn't going to make me or anyone else who likes it believe that it's the truth. I'm not telling you that you have to believe that WWE is in a great place right now, but all you have done is continue to say that they're terrible without so much as giving me a few reasons as to WHY they're terrible. If it's attendance and ratings, that's not a valid answer because that's not your point of view.


TotalNonstopHonor - I agree with everything you've posted in this thread, except the viewership ratings have decreased - considerably, so the underlined argument is not as valid as you make it out to be.

A few years ago, WWE were regularly averaging over 5 million viewers, that has dropped to just over 4 million viewers now.


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## Chi Town Punk (Mar 4, 2012)

WWE not drawing in Dayton, how bout only holding events in places where they know they'll get money. Like, tried and tested markets


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## Kratosx23 (Nov 1, 2004)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*



Phenomenal One said:


> (Y)
> 
> of course his marks will come out guns blazing to defend the 'best in the world'


Yeah, ok, let's see what would happen if Alberto Del Reaction was champion for a year...


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## blur (Sep 6, 2012)

HAH MIDGETZ CAN'T DRAW!!1!one!


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## Heel (Feb 11, 2006)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*



Tyrion Lannister said:


> Yeah, ok, let's see what would happen if Alberto Del Reaction was champion for a year...


A year of "DESTINY! That chihuahua Rey Mysterio! I am the new Apex Predator!"


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## krai999 (Jan 30, 2011)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*



Rock316AE said:


> Why is that even surprising? Who really want to sit through a 4 hour taping with most of it as filler, commercials, randomness and overall *the worst talent pool of all time*. What sells tickets is the live attractions on the program and personalities who should make you want to experience it live. That's not happening. These potential paying costumers are probably watching 30 minutes of RAW every week because it became almost unbearable on every level during the 3 hour era. RAW is never sold out these days BTW, unless it's a rare case or a special attraction is there. Wouldn't surprise me if this is going to be the standard in a few years besides the wrestling cities.


no i'm pretty sure it's the booking that makes them like shit


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## Kelly Kelly fan (Mar 14, 2010)

If certain states dont sell out shows then WWE shouldnt bother going back. They should try holding shows in new states and see what happens


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## dxbender (Jul 22, 2007)

*Re: Sparse crowd at RAW last night. Half empty*



TotalNonstopHonor said:


> Ratings are right in line with where they have been. Although the numerical rating may be lower, you have to account for the total number of television sets in the US rising every year. There are now more people watching TV than ever before, so while a 3.5 rating in 2007 may have equaled 4.2 millions viewers, a 2.9 today could just as easily equal 4.0 million viewers. The rating is just a percentage of people watching the show in accordance with the amount of people watching TV. That's not accounting for those who view it on Hulu, Youtube, or DVR.
> 
> It's not pointless, and you saying WWE is terrible isn't going to make me or anyone else who likes it believe that it's the truth. I'm not telling you that you have to believe that WWE is in a great place right now, but all you have done is continue to say that they're terrible without so much as giving me a few reasons as to WHY they're terrible. If it's attendance and ratings, that's not a valid answer because that's not your point of view.


Exactly. That's what I've been saying for year. 3.0 rating could equal X million viewers 10 years ago, 3.0 rating today would equal X + Y millions of viewers today. And while viewership numbers are down, its also because of the amount of tv shows on today, combined with ease of availability to find the show online.

If 100M people watch 100 diff tv shows, that'd work out to an average of 1M people per show. If 80M people watch 50 diff tv shows, that'd work out to an average of 1.6M people per show. So the amount of tv shows on tv also impacts ratings for some shows. The less shows/channels on tv, the more chance other shows have of gaining more viewers.

And like you said, TV ratings don't consider things like online viewing(from streams),downloading the video,watching online the next day, DVRs and other stuff.

Many TV shows with viewership similar to Raw, had 1M+ viewer increase at the end of the season, once DVR ratings were calculated.

And I don't know why people care at all about TV ratings. What do TV ratings really do for Raw/SD? They're not competing against any other company, they're never in a position to go off the air with bad ratings, so don't know why people care about ratings. But even if ratings did matter...Raw/SD are still some of the most watched cable shows on the nights they air, so their viewership would have to be cut in half to be considered an average viewing cable tv show.


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## TheRainKing (Jun 8, 2012)

I love it when people blame the holiday season for poor attendance. I don't recall half empty arenas in November during the attitude era, or even the ruthless aggression era for that matter.


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## FoxyRoxy (Feb 18, 2012)

LOL i find it funny that people will always find an excuse.. football!!11 or it's teh holiday season!!11

Bullshit. The show sucks and you all know it. 
RAW will end up being like it was in the mid 90's it's slowly but surely happening. In the next couple years they might have to go back to using small warehouse arenas.


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