# Brodie Lee outstanding new character



## IronMan8 (Dec 25, 2015)

I’m usually quite skeptical when it comes to WWE guys shooting on their own creative being ignored, but Brodie Lee is quickly becoming one of the best new wrestling characters I’ve seen in years.

Call me crazy, but this has shades of Undertaker from his corporate ministry days to it.

I was wrong about him. That unique look really does work better when he’s wielding power as an intelligent monster heel.

The characters are so much better in AEW in general where the wrestlers have creative input.

Brodie Lee take a bow.


----------



## Optikk is All Elite (Sep 5, 2007)

Absolutely. I think he's doing really well. Want to see him in front of a live audience.

+ no dirty wife beater 👏


----------



## TD Stinger (May 9, 2012)

I’m not a fan of it yet.

It still feels like a parody more than anything else. I’m mean it’s cute and all but if you take away the fact they’re mocking Vince, what is there?

To me, all that’s left are awkward segments that haven’t done anything to make me care more about the Dark Order.


----------



## The Phantom (Jan 12, 2018)

I like an erudite, urbane monster.


----------



## fabi1982 (Jun 28, 2011)

Up until now all he does is mocking VKM, which is low even for AEW standards. Especially picking on the smaller one of the guys, so it is not just the videos but his whole character. I know Cody is laughing his ass off about that, but this is just a waste of Brodie Lee


----------



## Jagaver (Aug 11, 2019)

TD Stinger said:


> I’m not a fan of it yet.
> 
> It still feels like a parody more than anything else. I’m mean it’s cute and all but if you take away the fact they’re mocking Vince, what is there?
> 
> To me, all that’s left are awkward segments that haven’t done anything to make me care more about the Dark Order.


I guess the problem is that if you know it's a parody, or at least that's the starting point, it's hard to see past it. I didn't know any of that was a rip on Vince and I've quite enjoyed the character.


----------



## TD Stinger (May 9, 2012)

Jagaver said:


> I guess the problem is that if you know it's a parody, or at least that's the starting point, it's hard to see past it. I didn't know any of that was a rip on Vince and I've quite enjoyed the character.


That’s a fair argument.

It’s just, 1, I do know it’s a parody of Vince. And 2, I just don’t find it that entertaining. I mean yes it establishes Brodie as this evil boss, but is not really find him compelling, nor does this stuff make me care more about the Dark Order.


----------



## CMPunkRock316 (Jan 17, 2016)

I've enjoyed Brodie. 

Destroying his minions after losing their match was good.


----------



## imthegame19 (Oct 12, 2008)

IronMan8 said:


> I’m usually quite skeptical when it comes to WWE guys shooting on their own creative being ignored, but Brodie Lee is quickly becoming one of the best new wrestling characters I’ve seen in years.
> 
> Call me crazy, but this has shades of Undertaker from his corporate ministry days to it.
> 
> ...


I agree he's been great.


----------



## Scissor Me Daddy-O!! (Apr 13, 2011)

I'm not into Brodie, YET. big YET because I liked his ring work in WWE. I think he cut 2 promos the whole time? lol Because of that I really want him to succeed. So far, I don't feel he's doing a good job. He's too bland for me. They also shifted the idea of the Dark Order as a cult where failures go to this Texas Chainsaw sort of family. It's bit too much like the Wyatts, definitely too many digs at Vince. 

I think they're killing time with the promos. Once they get to a live audience and the story progresses, it should be great. Unfortunately, I feel the weak link is Brodie. I'm not sure exactly what it is.


----------



## RapShepard (Jun 20, 2014)

Ironically this would be like a PG version of ministry Taker lol. Instead of flogging people and sacrificing folk. He's yelling about coughing and yawning. I don't think Brodie is nearly as good as people think, but this seems like a terrible use for a guy you're trying to show deserved better. 

I mean let's say nobody knew he was taking shots at Vince. What he's done heel wise hasn't been all that interesting, and really isn't any more disrespectful than what Evil Uno was doing. I mean fucking Evil Uno used the Creepers as a chair. That's way more demeaning and showing a character is an evil creep weirdo, than "I must finish my steak first". 

The Dark Order just wasn't good before Brodie and isn't good with him.


----------



## RiverFenix (Dec 10, 2011)

That is the mission statement of The Dark Order? Why do they exist? Why are they in AEW?

This is like Version 3.0, a reboot on the reboot of the original idea. 

Brodie could have played this boardroom character without any connection to the Dark Order failures. Brodie Corp could have been his thing. 

Brodie Corp. could have been the opposite of The Dark Order. He could have been like Hank Scorpio (From that great The Simpsons episode), rather than the overt culty stuff targeting the marginalized he could have really light and friendly recruitment videos headhunting experts with very specific skills. Maybe they could still retcon it to Brodie taking over the Dark Order first, then AEW and then the WORLD.


----------



## IronMan8 (Dec 25, 2015)

I wasn’t intending to praise the parody content of his storyline, more his unique character and how his wild expressions add credibility to his heel logic in interesting ways that I haven’t really seen before. 

As for the storyline content, I was ‘meh’ about the direct shots at Vince, but if Dark Order turns out to be one giant, carefully planned parody of WWE all along... there’s potential there.

E.g. were they saying WWE’s performers are terrible at throwing punches?

And that they’re all literally just a nameless number? (“8” and “9” wrestled yesterday)

Either way, this new character is quality, I’m thinking it’ll only become more popular as the direct parodies die down.


----------



## RiverFenix (Dec 10, 2011)

When does he force John Silver and Alex Reynolds to drop their first names? Or is that off limits because of "Cody" and especially "Trent"? Maybe he can make them wholly change their names so Brodie owns them. And/or give them silly names and tell them the names are good shit. Alex Reynolds can be Rolf Sizzler.


----------



## Sgt. Barnes (Mar 20, 2020)

LOL RapshepTURD trying to throw shade, meanwhile he thinks westlemania 36 IS too big for one night.


----------



## Wridacule (Aug 23, 2018)

One thing has carried over from wwe. There is always this underlying feeling that someone's going to get hurt. If you've ever been in a room with someone like that, you know what I mean. 

He gives off the vibe like any little could set him off and there will be hell to pay. 

I like the slow burn and am along for the ride. His ring gear could be toned down a bit. But that's a minor critique. I'm curious to see where this goes.


----------



## Brodus Clay (Jan 6, 2012)

I like him but gonna nitpick...he looks amazing but, but,but that fucking selection of ring gears are awful.


----------



## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

I feel like AEW has fallen into this habit where they have to mock the WWE every chance they get. Brodie Lee is doing a gimmick related to Vince, Jericho took a shot last week when he said Matt left WWE because the creative sucked (Or something like that), Cody Rhodes destroying the throne many months back was cringe and I'm sure there are others.

Much like with TNA in the past it just makes AEW look bad. Shots only really work if you're on the same level and AEW/WWE aren't on the same level.


----------



## Cult03 (Oct 31, 2016)

Did Schiavone say "Why would anyone want to work for him" when talking about Brodie? An obvious hit at Vince.

If WWE doesn't have Rob Stone awkwardly attempt to hug a girl and make him look like he's an awkward weirdo next week, then AEW isn't even on their radar. It's time for everyone to get petty, not just AEW.


----------



## TKO Wrestling (Jun 26, 2018)

Please, last time I watched any WWE I saw them say Blood n Guts like 3 times in a minute and then more the next day on twitter. They 100% pay attention lol, they copied AEWs hard cam placement last week for crying out loud


----------



## Y2K23 (Oct 10, 2019)

Yeah, He's finally on an environment where He will be able to be the best version of himself with no crappy booking and nonsense holding him back.

Looking forward to it


----------



## Cult03 (Oct 31, 2016)

TKO Wrestling said:


> Please, last time I watched any WWE I saw them say Blood n Guts like 3 times in a minute and then more the next day on twitter. They 100% pay attention lol, they copied AEWs hard cam placement last week for crying out loud


Hard cams have been used before. When did they say blood n guts? Seems like a coincidence. What would saying that do for anyone? Also taking notice and being on their radar are different things. Whether WWE is worried about them is a different story. AEW has stolen from other companies too.


----------



## Cult03 (Oct 31, 2016)

Y2K23 said:


> Yeah, He's finally on an environment where He will be able to be the best version of himself with no crappy booking and nonsense holding him back.
> 
> Looking forward to it


The best version of himself is literally a parody of Vince McMahon. I hope this was a joke comment


----------



## shandcraig (Mar 23, 2008)

TD Stinger said:


> I’m not a fan of it yet.
> 
> It still feels like a parody more than anything else. I’m mean it’s cute and all but if you take away the fact they’re mocking Vince, what is there?
> 
> To me, all that’s left are awkward segments that haven’t done anything to make me care more about the Dark Order.



People are hung up on that. Once irs it's over the real him will reveal that hes not IT. He doesnt have it and his in ring presences is lacking. This is like cm punk having a lucky storyline but in reality before that and after vthat he wasn't special to anyone 

Im calling it now that hes not going to frszte real buzz


----------



## Geeee (Aug 9, 2010)

I thought the Brodie Lee vignette this week was kinda like psychological horror.

I didn't notice any references to Vince this week at all?


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

Luke Harper became one of my favorite wrestlers. I believed there was so much wasted potential there. Now my heart has been broken to be shown that Vince McMahon was right. 

This is fucking awful. The look, the smug jabs at Vince (yeah, because the billionaire who literally paid you to do nothing gives a fuck what you do in front of 700k people on TNT), The fucking Dark motherfucking Order. It's so bad. And did I mention the look? He looks like a fucking geek. They made Luke Harper look like such a loser. And he hangs out with losers. And he's the big dog there! The pawn in WWE that got surpassed by all his stablemates is a main event giant in AEW. Typical.


----------



## Metalhead1 (Jan 21, 2019)

I am split on Brodie. I like him because he is big, physical, and scary-looking, and this is especially good since AEW really needs some big men. And in a wrestling world which is too PG-rated, I like the scary and dangerous aspects that he possesses. In those respects, he is a good leader of the Dark Order. 

On the negative though, I don't think he has interviewing ability or the overall charisma to be a leader. 

I don't know. I guess we'll see.


----------



## The Masked Avenger (Apr 18, 2018)

I have enjoyed this gimmick so far. Like some on here I had no idea about the Vince references until in read it on here. I also don't really care if they are. 

Also I happened to be out of the room when the vignette last night came on but I could hear it. I legit thought my wife had turned it to NXT because he sounds exactly like Triple H. Watch it back and close your eyes and see if it doesn't sound like him even the speech pattern was the same.


----------



## Hangman (Feb 3, 2017)

Alright its only been two weeks, let's calm it down a bit.


----------



## taker1986 (Sep 14, 2016)

At first I liked the shots AEW were taking at WWE, but now a year into the company I think they should be moving past this.


----------



## Erik. (Mar 17, 2014)

I think it works. 

He comes across as an actual cult leader and not the super natural mysterious type that WWE would have you believe a cult leader is truly like. 

Social manipulation and abusing the lower ranked members, who remain loyal to him regardless because the corporation he has them in makes them feel part of something. 

I also like the contrast of the public face being how the Dark Order is a great thing to be apart of, where they look after the weak etc. Only to then see how abusive Brodie Lee is in the behind the scenes vignettes. 

But what's the benefit of actually being in the Dark Order? 

Well, cults don't usually have any benefit. You'll be brainwashed and broken down until you submit to their power and become a believer. Want to leave the Dark Order? Fine, but you won't be seen again. 

I find myself interested in the next Brodie Lee vignette and find myself interested in how the live audience react to him when we are back infront of a live audience. We haven't truly seen him interact too much with Uno and Dos so will be interesting to see the dynamic and how far they go into the Dark Order. 

The only negative I have against it is his attire.


----------



## Geeee (Aug 9, 2010)

I would really like to see how he interacts with Uno and Grayson...but I guess we might not get that until after this is over because they are based in Canada, right?


----------



## The Bloodline (Jan 3, 2012)

Ive really enjoyed the gimmick. Maybe thats because when i watch these segments i just dont get A Vince Mcmahon parody vibe at all. Im willing to bet a lot arent and its much more enjoyable that way. In my opinion at least. I love the psycho boss angle. I wish we could have seen it planned out with the main dark order tag team involed but as for establishing Lee and keeping it going during these times I think hes doing great.


----------



## ireekofawesumnes (Mar 4, 2017)

Chip Chipperson said:


> I feel like AEW has fallen into this habit where they have to mock the WWE every chance they get. Brodie Lee is doing a gimmick related to Vince, Jericho took a shot last week when he said Matt left WWE because the creative sucked (Or something like that), Cody Rhodes destroying the throne many months back was cringe and I'm sure there are others.
> 
> Much like with TNA in the past it just makes AEW look bad. Shots only really work if you're on the same level and AEW/WWE aren't on the same level.


yep...TNA 2.0
and nobody does cringe like cody


----------



## Ham and Egger (Dec 13, 2005)

I don't see how his character is related to the Dark Order gimmick over all. The Dark Order took in misfits and gave them a purpose and how not be a loser. Then you get Brody as the leader and he is putting down his members and is a controlling maniac. I get that he is a cult leader but they are supposed to be enigmatic and extreme in their behaviors but he doesn't come off as charismatic.


----------



## RapShepard (Jun 20, 2014)

Sgt. Barnes said:


> LOL RapshepTURD trying to throw shade, meanwhile he thinks westlemania 36 IS too big for one night.


At least have the balls to be actually offensive and insulting





Ham and Egger said:


> I don't see how his character is related to the Dark Order gimmick over all. The Dark Order took in misfits and gave them a purpose and how not be a loser. Then you get Brody as the leader and he is putting down his members and is a controlling maniac. I get that he is a cult leader but they are supposed to be enigmatic and extreme in their behaviors but he doesn't come off as charismatic.


Everything involving the Dark Order is just a mess for real. Brodie really should've been on his own proving how bad ass he could be, instead he's leading a group that was sinking before he even arrived. He's in a rough spot, he has to prove himself and save the Dark Order at the same time.


----------



## Scissor Me Daddy-O!! (Apr 13, 2011)

MJF said:


> I think it works.
> 
> He comes across as an actual cult leader and not the super natural mysterious type that WWE would have you believe a cult leader is truly like.
> 
> ...


While I can't say what a cult actually does (don't belong to any), my interpretation of the Dark order was much like Ham and Egger says. I understood cults to be pitched as this amazing thing that you have to be a part of. Once you're in, you feel loved and part of the team. I only saw the abuse of lower members when they do something wrong (sneeze, eat first), fail (lose a match), or want to leave. But, outright abusive and harsh towards the followers was never my interpretation of a cult. 

I would like to see Brodie showing his manipulative or compassionate side. Show me the part where he fools someone into following him. Or, is Uno and the other guy the compassionate side that recruits? Brodie is the harsh consequences? I don't think each scene should start with everyone scared. The followers could like Brodie and trust him. When something goes wrong then they act disciplined. Perhaps they're just missing the first piece.



Ham and Egger said:


> I don't see how his character is related to the Dark Order gimmick over all. The Dark Order took in misfits and gave them a purpose and how not be a loser. Then you get Brody as the leader and he is putting down his members and is a controlling maniac. I get that he is a cult leader but they are supposed to be enigmatic and extreme in their behaviors but he doesn't come off as charismatic.


----------



## Top bins (Jul 8, 2019)

Liked his debut, but he has underwhelmed since. I don't get the shots at Vince and I don't get why he is the exalted one. He needs to get the dark order over or this could be the nail for his career. I am judging it on the first three weeks but so far I prefer Luke Harper in WWE.


----------



## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

All Elite Wanking said:


> While I can't say what a cult actually does (don't belong to any), my interpretation of the Dark order was much like Ham and Egger says. I understood cults to be pitched as this amazing thing that you have to be a part of. Once you're in, you feel loved and part of the team. I only saw the abuse of lower members when they do something wrong (sneeze, eat first), fail (lose a match), or want to leave. But, outright abusive and harsh towards the followers was never my interpretation of a cult.


I'd go out on a limb and say nobody on here is actively involved in a cult but from documentaries and reading about cults I'd say they can go either way really.

Some cult leaders brainwash their followers and are absolutely horrible to them afterwards with physical assaults, verbal abuse and public humiliation. A good example of this is Scientology where David Miscavige allegedly assaults members and is abusive to almost everyone no matter how high up they are.

On another side you have the charismatic cult leaders who are experts at manipulation and come across as wanting what is best for you and the followers but really they have selfish ulterior motives. 

Also, as a third one you sometimes have leaders who buy into their own bullshit massively and truly love and believe in their followers and vice versa.

From what we've seen from Brodie so far he seems to be the first example as has every cult leader in wrestling really. Would love to see it get changed up one day and see this ultra charismatic and manipulative cult leader brainwashing wrestlers as other wrestlers see through it and try to save their friends from joining.


----------



## Cult03 (Oct 31, 2016)

Walk With Elias said:


> Ive really enjoyed the gimmick. Maybe thats because when i watch these segments i just dont get A Vince Mcmahon parody vibe at all. Im willing to bet a lot arent and its much more enjoyable that way. In my opinion at least. I love the psycho boss angle. I wish we could have seen it planned out with the main dark order tag team involed but as for establishing Lee and keeping it going during these times I think hes doing great.


It's not a vibe though. It's a literal representation of Vince McMahon and it's quite obvious


----------



## Major24 (Oct 10, 2019)

The usual suspects in this thread hating every single thing on the show. 

The fact that trolls are allowed to do what they do is why this website died.


----------



## Cult03 (Oct 31, 2016)

Major24 said:


> The usual suspects in this thread hating every single thing on the show.
> 
> The fact that trolls are allowed to do what they do is why this website died.


If I had a dollar for every time someone said a member on here was a troll instead of debating their point I'd be rich. All this does is show that you lack conviction in your own opinions and can't argue your side. It's getting embarrassing for you guys. None of us are trolls, we are fans of wrestling. Here, I'll help you. Anyone can answer.

Brodie Lee is parodying Vince McMahon. Do you agree or disagree? There's only one correct answer.

Do you find the parody funny? Yes or no? This is a matter of opinion so either answer is correct.

Would you find it funny if the other company mocked Tony Kahn being a dork? Yes or no? Again, no wrong answers.


----------



## MontyCora (Aug 31, 2016)

I like the idea of a psychopathic controlling character who happens to borrow a lot from Vince. Pretty great idea for a gimmick.


----------



## Y2K23 (Oct 10, 2019)

Cult03 said:


> The best version of himself is literally a parody of Vince McMahon. I hope this was a joke comment


Yeah I guess it's better to basically be a Bryatt drone with no personality or character development


----------



## RiverFenix (Dec 10, 2011)

His ring gear is shitty, but the AEW seamstress is in Cali with Cutler. Hopefully she is working on better gear for him while in lockdown.

This is not the direction I would have gone, but I'll give it time to play out. The Vince Parody stuff is only such if you "get it" but also works stand-alone if you don't so it's fine as a character direction. 

Khan seems to be the creative behind the Dark Order, and mentioned how he envisioned it as a Dark Corporation - that is the vision we are getting now. So it will be given every chance to succeed. Also Ross would have been around for most of all the Vince craziness so surely has ideas to pitch and Vince screwed over Harper the last year plus so he's pissed off and knows he's never going back so not afraid to torch bridges.


----------



## TKO Wrestling (Jun 26, 2018)

Major24 said:


> The usual suspects in this thread hating every single thing on the show.
> 
> The fact that trolls are allowed to do what they do is why this website died.


Yep. Quite sad actually, this WAS my favorite place to talk AEW a few months ago but a few sour apples have really ruined it for me and turned me to Twitter.


----------



## Roxinius (Jul 21, 2014)

i think he's doing very well you have to remember this guy went from being a mute sidekick for most of his career for being thrust into the spotlight of one of their bigger story lines he can definitely talk and he's still one of the best big men in the business


----------



## Tilon (Jun 27, 2019)

I really like him. Perfect look for a David Miscavige evil leader type. Loved when he came out and powerbombed one of the losers then just looks over at the other. Didn't even need to snarl or look mad, just "Yeah, I'm thinking you get the message." Loved it.

Of course any evil-boss thing he does is going to be immediately interpreted as Anti-Vince. Jesus, WWE lives rent free in people's heads.


----------



## Cult03 (Oct 31, 2016)

Y2K23 said:


> Yeah I guess it's better to basically be a Bryatt drone with no personality or character development


Weird that you think they are the only two options..


----------



## Cult03 (Oct 31, 2016)

Tilon said:


> I really like him. Perfect look for a David Miscavige evil leader type. Loved when he came out and powerbombed one of the losers then just looks over at the other. Didn't even need to snarl or look mad, just "Yeah, I'm thinking you get the message." Loved it.
> 
> *Of course any evil-boss thing he does is going to be immediately interpreted as Anti-Vince. Jesus, WWE lives rent free in people's heads.*


Haha I hope this is a joke.


----------



## RiverFenix (Dec 10, 2011)

Tilon said:


> I really like him. Perfect look for a David Miscavige evil leader type. Loved when he came out and powerbombed one of the losers then just looks over at the other. Didn't even need to snarl or look mad, just "Yeah, I'm thinking you get the message." Loved it.
> 
> Of course any evil-boss thing he does is going to be immediately interpreted as Anti-Vince. Jesus, WWE lives rent free in people's heads.


Daddy eats first, not sneezing and now yawning in his presence are things Vince has been reported to have said/done in the past. How can it not be seen as a direct shot at Vince?


----------



## Major24 (Oct 10, 2019)

DetroitRiverPhx said:


> Daddy eats first, not sneezing and now yawning in his presence are things Vince has been reported to have said/done in the past. How can it not be seen as a direct shot at Vince?


Who cares? It's been great. He's the evil leader of a faction. One that berates his guys, is irrational when it comes to things like sneezing, and pretty much abuses his underlings. 

Who in the ever living hell cares if it's a parody of Vince? I don't. I would care if the character sucked, but it doesn't. The ones complaining are the ones that complain a out every single thing AEW does. Again, trolls. Again, the reason this site died.


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

Major24 said:


> The usual suspects in this thread hating every single thing on the show.
> 
> The fact that trolls are allowed to do what they do is why this website died.


Oh, please — there’s plenty of discussion here. And it isn’t trolling to think critically or not lap



Y2K23 said:


> Yeah I guess it's better to basically be a Bryatt drone with no personality or character development


He was definitely better off in WWE when he was used there. Wyatt Family Harper is easily the best presentation of him so far. He’d have probably been better off to ask to go and work Puerto Rico or NXT house shows. But he wanted a starring role, and more power to him, but it has been awful. This is less X-Pac jumping to the WWF and more like Jeff Jarrett jumping to WCW.


----------



## The Masked Avenger (Apr 18, 2018)

DetroitRiverPhx said:


> Daddy eats first, not sneezing and now yawning in his presence are things Vince has been reported to have said/done in the past. How can it not be seen as a direct shot at Vince?


I have never heard any of that before and personally I don't give a fuck if they are.


----------



## kingfrass44 (Sep 19, 2019)

The Wood said:


> Oh, please — there’s plenty of discussion here. And it isn’t trolling to think critically or not lap
> 
> 
> 
> He was definitely better off in WWE when he was used there. Wyatt Family Harper is easily the best presentation of him so far. He’d have probably been better off to ask to go and work Puerto Rico or NXT house shows. But he wanted a starring role, and more power to him, but it has been awful. This is less X-Pac jumping to the WWF and more like Jeff Jarrett jumping to WCW.


He is not * definitely better off in WWE
Your personal opinion is not Fact*
Not awful and Not X-Pac jumping to the WWF and more like Jeff Jarrett jumping to WCW


----------



## Sbatenney (Jul 3, 2018)

Honestly the whole acting like Vince thing is coming off bitter to me. I get that he can talk a bit(I wouldn't have him lead a big stable as a mouthpiece but he can talk). I just always saw Brodie is a midcard monster, even when he was first put with the Wyatts in NXT, I felt that was the right place for him, like a smaller boss before a final boss type thing.

However I feel like AEW has missed a beat, I mean they have Jake Roberts the rumored Original Higher Power before his drinking got bad again. hell they could have kept him with Lance Archer and have him as the Dark Order's enforcer and maybe next in line when they phrase out Jake. Maybe that is making me see Brodie as disappointing as the leader but I do stand by his vince act comes off as a bitter guy, also something TNA would have done which isn't a good thing.


----------



## Jagaver (Aug 11, 2019)

I like the angle that he's a controlling, manipulative psycho who breaks down the people in his cult, I think a couple of early Vince jabs is ok but I'd like him to take it in his own direction now and stop leaning on Vince for character ideas.


----------



## punkypower (Mar 2, 2020)

Sbatenney said:


> Honestly the whole acting like Vince thing is coming off bitter to me. I get that he can talk a bit(I wouldn't have him lead a big stable as a mouthpiece but he can talk). I just always saw Brodie is a midcard monster, even when he was first put with the Wyatts in NXT, I felt that was the right place for him, like a smaller boss before a final boss type thing.
> 
> However I feel like AEW has missed a beat, I mean they have Jake Roberts the rumored Original Higher Power before his drinking got bad again. hell they could have kept him with Lance Archer and have him as the Dark Order's enforcer and maybe next in line when they phrase out Jake. Maybe that is making me see Brodie as disappointing as the leader but I do stand by his vince act comes off as a bitter guy, also something TNA would have done which isn't a good thing.


Whoa, did I miss something on Jake? I was worried for him after his last couple tweets about the isolation affecting his sobriety and depression. The way I read your post, AEW has cut ties with him. Can you please provide more info?? Thanks!!

Edit:Just watched the latest "Road To.." and Jake is on it. I'm even more confused by your post now. I must have misunderstood you.


----------



## The Masked Avenger (Apr 18, 2018)

punkypower said:


> Whoa, did I miss something on Jake? I was worried for him after his last couple tweets about the isolation affecting his sobriety and depression. The way I read your post, AEW has cut ties with him. Can you please provide more info?? Thanks!!
> 
> Edit:Just watched the latest "Road To.." and Jake is on it. I'm even more confused by your post now. I must have misunderstood you.


Higher Power, as in the "it was me Austin. It was me the whole time" Vince in charge of the Ministry, Higher Power.


----------



## Sbatenney (Jul 3, 2018)

TheMaskedAvenger said:


> Higher Power, as in the "it was me Austin. It was me the whole time" Vince in charge of the Ministry, Higher Power.


Yup that is what was meaning, it's been said by many even some who was in creative at the time, that it was meant to be Jake Roberts not Vince as the Higher Power in the Ministry which would have been awesome if he was health and not drinking.

They had a chance to do this here but Brodie so far has been a massive let down imo.


----------



## punkypower (Mar 2, 2020)

Holy crepe!!

Thanks so much for illuminating me on that one! I never knew!! Now I'm thinking of how much potential that storyline could have had!!

Thanks again!!


----------



## kingfrass44 (Sep 19, 2019)

Sbatenney said:


> Honestly the whole acting like Vince thing is coming off bitter to me. I get that he can talk a bit(I wouldn't have him lead a big stable as a mouthpiece but he can talk). I just always saw Brodie is a midcard monster, even when he was first put with the Wyatts in NXT, I felt that was the right place for him, like a smaller boss before a final boss type thing.
> 
> However I feel like AEW has missed a beat, I mean they have Jake Roberts the rumored Original Higher Power before his drinking got bad again. hell they could have kept him with Lance Archer and have him as the Dark Order's enforcer and maybe next in line when they phrase out Jake. Maybe that is making me see Brodie as disappointing as the leader but I do stand by his vince act comes off as a bitter guy, also something TNA would have done which isn't a good thing.


That's not something he's doing. something TNA


----------



## Danielallen1410 (Nov 21, 2016)

Would have personally held off until they had a crowd.


----------



## The Masked Avenger (Apr 18, 2018)

Sbatenney said:


> Yup that is what was meaning, it's been said by many even some who was in creative at the time, that it was meant to be Jake Roberts not Vince as the Higher Power in the Ministry which would have been awesome if he was health and not drinking.
> 
> They had a chance to do this here but Brodie so far has been a massive let down imo.


That's cool. I've only heard about Daniels being the Higher Power. Never knew about Jake being rumored.



Danielallen1410 said:


> Would have personally held off until they had a crowd.


Yea, sorry Brodie I know you've been sitting out for a year but we want to debut you in front of a crowd so you are going to have to sit for a few more months.

No reason to stop storylines when you are limited on talent and can use the body to fill time.


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

DetroitRiverPhx said:


> His ring gear is shitty, but the AEW seamstress is in Cali with Cutler. Hopefully she is working on better gear for him while in lockdown.
> 
> This is not the direction I would have gone, but I'll give it time to play out. The Vince Parody stuff is only such if you "get it" but also works stand-alone if you don't so it's fine as a character direction.
> 
> Khan seems to be the creative behind the Dark Order, and mentioned how he envisioned it as a Dark Corporation - that is the vision we are getting now. So it will be given every chance to succeed. Also Ross would have been around for most of all the Vince craziness so surely has ideas to pitch and Vince screwed over Harper the last year plus so he's pissed off and knows he's never going back so not afraid to torch bridges.


Jim Ross spoke recently about getting out of the hospital, coming home, passing out from being doped up on morphine, and waking to his wife crying her eyes out. He was scared to ask what was wrong, fearful she’d received bad news about her parents. Instead, she is crying, because Vince is on TV using the timing of JR being hospitalized as material for a skit with Vince in the goddamned hospital.

I don’t get the Vince references, unless Brodie screams a gutteral, “You’re fired!” or “this is such good shit!”, so I can only take what I have seen on its own merits and have thought they were “decent”. Nothing more, nothing less.

But back to the JR bit. He is a senior consultant. He talks glowingly of Tony Kahn as a boss and as a fan with uncanny knowledge. Just for the sheer possibility that JR has some additions to the Vince parody, then I have no problems with this stuff.

Vince has no issues with using others for material, so bahgawd, he’s open fucking game. Maybe next week Brodie can have a Sister/Brother combination wanting to join, and their initiation is a make out session with Brodie screaming that it’s “such good shit!!”



Cult03 said:


> If I had a dollar for every time someone said a member on here was a troll instead of debating their point I'd be rich. All this does is show that you lack conviction in your own opinions and can't argue your side. It's getting embarrassing for you guys. None of us are trolls, we are fans of wrestling. Here, I'll help you. Anyone can answer.
> 
> Brodie Lee is parodying Vince McMahon. Do you agree or disagree? There's only one correct answer.
> 
> ...


I won’t say that I believe everyone is as honest in their opinions of the product, but I do think you’re one of the good guys who just want a good product. I’ve seen you praise things they have done multiple times and don’t get as pissy WHEN they do those things well.

But I feel ya, man.I’ve been both accused of being an AEW fanboy and a WWE fanboy on here. Lol


----------



## RapShepard (Jun 20, 2014)

bdon said:


> Vince has no issues with using others for material, so bahgawd, he’s open fucking game. Maybe next week Brodie can have a Sister/Brother combination wanting to join, and their initiation is a make out session with Brodie screaming that it’s “such good shit!!”


It's not about whether Vince should be fair game. It's about whether that should be a core part of his character. Maybe things in AEW work totally different, but typically speaking things like this have a ceiling on them and are affected by the law of diminishing returns. There's only so far he can go with the joke before it becomes a parody of itself.


----------



## Danielallen1410 (Nov 21, 2016)

TheMaskedAvenger said:


> That's cool. I've only heard about Daniels being the Higher Power. Never knew about Jake being rumored.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


get what you are saying, but the most entertaining aspect of a debut for me is crowd reaction.


----------



## zkorejo (Jul 2, 2010)

His character work has improved and his in-ring intensity has decreased (probably just due to no audience), its like Brodie Lee is a complete opposite of Luke Harper.


----------



## Mister Abigail (May 22, 2014)

Another shot at McMahon last night. The 'Perception is reality' quote is something he is known to say.


----------



## Aedubya (Jul 12, 2019)

Brodie Lee On Why He Left WWE, Which AEW Star He Wants To Face - Wrestling Inc.


Brodie Lee is happy with the opportunity he has in AEW. After being used as a heavy for most of his time in WWE, Lee debuted in AEW as the real leader of The Dark Order. Lee appeared on Busted Open Radio to talk about working for AEW. Lee said he is ready to prove […]




www.wrestlinginc.com


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

Mister Abigail said:


> Another shot at McMahon last night. The 'Perception is reality' quote is something he is known to say.


Jesus Christ, they cannot help themselves. 

This might end up worse than the Voodoo Kin Mafia stuff.


----------



## Aedubya (Jul 12, 2019)

That was over a month ago


----------



## Aedubya (Jul 12, 2019)

Brodie Lee Reveals Who He Spoke To About Joining AEW, Creative Freedom With The Dark Order - Wrestling Inc.


Brodie Lee spoke with talkSPORT before next Saturday’s AEW World Championship Match against Jon Moxley at AEW Double or Nothing. After getting released from WWE last December, Lee said thanks to him keeping in touch with multiple people he receive several calls about joining up with AEW. “I’ve...




www.wrestlinginc.com


----------



## Aedubya (Jul 12, 2019)

Brodie Lee On If His AEW Character Is Spoofing Vince McMahon - Wrestling Inc.


Brodie Lee has made some waves with his portrayal of The Exalted One. Lee debuted in AEW as the true leader of The Dark Order in March. Since then, Lee has appeared in vignettes that showed him to be a godfather type figure for the group, leading to speculation that Lee is taking shots at […]




www.wrestlinginc.com


----------



## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

Brodie can spin it however he wants but very rarely in Mafia movies do you see scenes in which the mob boss treats his fellow mafia members like garbage. It only really occurs if there is some kind of major screw up or a major issue within the family.

Also, if it wasn't a Vince knock off and just all purely coincidental why did the Vince McMahon spoof stop when internet wrestling media began to trash it and say it was bad?


----------



## Danielallen1410 (Nov 21, 2016)

Who cares if it’s a vince knock off or not?


----------



## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

Danielallen1410 said:


> Who cares if it’s a vince knock off or not?


You, me, many members of this board and a large amount of people away from here hence why it's being reported on.

You might be cool with just accepting it and saying it's great but many of us cringe when we see bitter former WWE guys going after Vince on TV thinking they're Steve Austin in 1995.


----------



## SteveC484 (May 17, 2020)

It feels like it's been a flop so far and he's only getting a title match at the PPV because he was an ex-WWE guy. A rare misstep for AEW.


----------



## Runaway (Feb 14, 2020)

The Dark Order is Aews big blind spot. Dead in the water gimmick that drags every one down. Hopefully once Moxley beats him they take a new approach with Brodie Lee. Complete dud so far.


----------



## spiderguy252000 (Aug 31, 2016)

I’m not sure if anyone has brought this up, but I think that from a character arc and storytelling POV the “Vince-isms” are not actually shots but more so a part of his character. They have hinted that this is the same man that was Luke Harper and that was a part of a cult. What we are seeing now is a man who is leading his own team for the first time and is leading in the only way he knows how. He is leading in the way that he THINKS a leader should lead because that’s all he knows. He can now himself have steak, dress in suits, he can get on to his followers for showing weakness, he can recruit because of size, he can spout phrases like “perception is reality.” It’s not a parody, it’s just Brodie Lees attempt at being the head honcho. Very much like so many people that have had abusive parents become abusive parents themselves. Sometimes it’s all you know. Is this character perfect? Not at all, but I actually think that AEW have been consistent with this for a while now. The exalted one was always someone in a suit behind a desk. That’s what we have now.


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

Can anyone explain to me why it is called The Dark Order? I liked Star Wars enough as a kid, but it always bothered me how the Sith called themselves "The Dark Side." Like, why would anyone who believed they were right call themselves that? But at the end of the day, Star Wars is fantasy, and it's got that "space opera" thing going for it, where it is kind of like the Christmas pantomime. I'm not knocking clear fiction for that. 

It bothered me in Transformers when the bad robots were "The Decepticons." Why would they relish in being deceitful? I don't get it. But again -- fiction. 

The Dark Order...why? Why not "The Light Order?" Why not "The Right Path?" Why do they identify themselves, as a cult, as being in the dark? Blind? Clandestine? Shadowy? How is that good culting? If this were Batman and Brodie Lee was leading The Dark Order against Bruce Wayne, I would have less problem with it, but still feel it is a bit of a silly name. But if this is pro-wrestling then this is supposed to be attempting to be real, and yet they have used one of the most heavy-handed and obvious tropes of fantasy. 

Just call Brodie Lee Morty de Volde and be over with it. This is sports entertainment bullshit and it makes no sense.


----------



## Danielallen1410 (Nov 21, 2016)

Chip Chipperson said:


> You, me, many members of this board and a large amount of people away from here hence why it's being reported on.
> 
> You might be cool with just accepting it and saying it's great but many of us cringe when we see bitter former WWE guys going after Vince on TV thinking they're Steve Austin in 1995.


I never said it’s great. I said I don’t care if it’s a Vince rip off. I’m not blown away by it, but certainly don’t dislike it either


----------



## PavelGaborik (Oct 30, 2015)

The Wood said:


> Can anyone explain to me why it is called The Dark Order? I liked Star Wars enough as a kid, but it always bothered me how the Sith called themselves "The Dark Side." Like, why would anyone who believed they were right call themselves that? But at the end of the day, Star Wars is fantasy, and it's got that "space opera" thing going for it, where it is kind of like the Christmas pantomime. I'm not knocking clear fiction for that.
> 
> It bothered me in Transformers when the bad robots were "The Decepticons." Why would they relish in being deceitful? I don't get it. But again -- fiction.
> 
> ...


The Dark Knight movies must've really, really pissed you off.


----------



## Chris JeriG.O.A.T (Jun 17, 2014)

The Wood said:


> Can anyone explain to me why it is called The Dark Order? I liked Star Wars enough as a kid, but it always bothered me how the Sith called themselves "The Dark Side." Like, why would anyone who believed they were right call themselves that? But at the end of the day, Star Wars is fantasy, and it's got that "space opera" thing going for it, where it is kind of like the Christmas pantomime. I'm not knocking clear fiction for that.
> 
> It bothered me in Transformers when the bad robots were "The Decepticons." Why would they relish in being deceitful? I don't get it. But again -- fiction.
> 
> ...


In fiction bad guys are evil just for the hell of it and they relish in that fact, but in real life even bad guys who know they're bad think they're serving a greater good or at least a necessary evil; I'm sure Rodrigo Duterte knows murdering drug dealers and addicts is wrong but he thinks it's the best way to keep people off drugs. 

So I agree, the Dark Order is too cartoonish for something as sports based and realistic as AEW is supposed to be.The only thing good I've ever seen from these bums is the commercials which coincidentally none of them were actually in.


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

PavelGaborik said:


> The Dark Knight movies must've really, really pissed you off.


No, they're great. Well, someone pointed out plot-holes that sort of ruined them for me, haha, but: 

1. They're fiction. And don't say that wrestling is fiction. It's not supposed to be presented that way.

2. Batman is called "The Dark Knight" because he's supposed to put fear into people. He lurks at night, fights crime at night. Why is this group supposedly enlightening people trying to scare people? It's like if a religion served "The Dark Master" and prayed for evil and shit things to happen to them. Come on now. 

This is bad storytelling.


----------



## PavelGaborik (Oct 30, 2015)

The Wood said:


> No, they're great. Well, someone pointed out plot-holes that sort of ruined them for me, haha, but:
> 
> 1. They're fiction. And don't say that wrestling is fiction. It's not supposed to be presented that way.
> 
> ...


He's called the Dark Knight because he literally lurks in the shadows and appears at night, correct. 


The man is a genuine millionaire who spends his adult years dealing with his traumatic experiences of the past by dressing up in an animal costume and beating up criminals.

He says he doesn't trust the police and the judicial system is broken, but instead of using his wealth and power to reform it, he dresses up in an animal costume and beats people up. Every night, night after night, year after year, he tries to get retroactive revenge on the people who killed his parents by beating people up.

Literally, that's his entire story.

To sum matters up : He's batshit crazy.

Kayfabe has been dead for years. Do you mean to tell my the Undertaker can't really strike down folks with lightning and that not every human being on the planet has inherently good intentions? Shucks.

I enjoyed the ministry of darkness as well as cheesy as they were.


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

PavelGaborik said:


> He's called the Dark Knight because he literally lurks in the shadows and appears at night, correct.
> 
> 
> The man is a genuine millionaire who spends his adult years dealing with his traumatic experiences of the past by dressing up in an animal costume and beating up criminals.
> ...


Absolutely no reason you're going into Batman. It's not relevant in the slightest, haha. 

Kayfabe being dead is not an excuse to not try. People can still be worked and the lack of kayfabe is what keeps people out of wrestling. I explicitly stated that I don't want to hear this point, because it is absolutely bullshit. Wrestling is supposed to have kayfabe. That's why it's called a work. Any other answer on this is just wrong, and it's not my "opinion." Wrestling doesn't work because it's not a work. It's that fucking simple. 

The Undertaker is not a gimmick I am a fan of. I don't remember him actually shooting lightning at people, but that would be fucking stupid too. The Ministry of Darkness also sucked. There's a reason this version of Taker did his best to bomb the ratings. None of this makes Brodie Lee leading the most ineffective cult in history a good idea.


----------



## PavelGaborik (Oct 30, 2015)

The Wood said:


> Absolutely no reason you're going into Batman. It's not relevant in the slightest, haha.
> 
> Kayfabe being dead is not an excuse to not try. People can still be worked and the lack of kayfabe is what keeps people out of wrestling. I explicitly stated that I don't want to hear this point, because it is absolutely bullshit. Wrestling is supposed to have kayfabe. That's why it's called a work. Any other answer on this is just wrong, and it's not my "opinion." Wrestling doesn't work because it's not a work. It's that fucking simple.
> 
> The Undertaker is not a gimmick I am a fan of. I don't remember him actually shooting lightning at people, but that would be fucking stupid too. The Ministry of Darkness also sucked. There's a reason this version of Taker did his best to bomb the ratings. None of this makes Brodie Lee leading the most ineffective cult in history a good idea.



It makes perfect sense. You spend your days and nights overanalyzing what is essentially a borderline male soap opera with wrestling matches. You nowere literally just openly criticizing why anyone/any group would want to associate themselves with "Dark" or "Darkness" and even went as far as to talk about the "Dark side" in Star Wars. It's not that complicated why the Dark Knight was brought up, don't play stupid.

If you're expecting "kayfabe" to make a return during the social media days with characters breaking character on a routine basis then I suggest you stop watching, it's not going to happen no matter how much you pout online about it. It's a waste of your time quite frankly.

People are out of Wrestling because there are real genuine alternatives now for one. MMA's rapid spike in popularity provides individuals with an alternative full of drama and at the end of the day - real unscripted fights. That is just something that Pro Wrestling isn't going to be able to keep up with in 2020 no matter how hard they "try to keep kayfabe"

Also I have no idea what you're talking about in regards to Taker/ratings in 1998.


----------



## Cult03 (Oct 31, 2016)

Why is anyone using the forum if not to over analyze wrestling? I have never understood the argument. Don't we all love this shit? Probably to the point where we think about what works and what doesn't? Why is it suddenly a thing to refer to anyone that criticizes anything AEW related as an over analyzer? And the "kayfabe is dead" and "wrestling isn't real" arguments are the biggest cop outs you can use on here. We all know it is but it's not excuse to not try your hardest. This goes for every company, not just AEW.


----------



## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

Cult03 said:


> Why is anyone using the forum if not to over analyze wrestling? I have never understood the argument. Don't we all love this shit? Probably to the point where we think about what works and what doesn't? Why is it suddenly a thing to refer to anyone that criticizes anything AEW related as an over analyzer? And the "kayfabe is dead" and "wrestling isn't real" arguments are the biggest cop outs you can use on here. We all know it is but it's not excuse to not try your hardest. This goes for every company, not just AEW.


I'd say 95% of the people on this forum are hardcore wrestling fans with at least strong knowledge about wrestling and how it works. I personally signed up because wrestling groups on Facebook were more about sharing memes and taking endless polls as opposed to in depth wrestling discussion.

In regards to anyone criticising AEW being labelled an over analyser I think that one is obvious. It's a way to defend AEW and try to sweep things under the rug. For many people it's easier to pretend that anyone criticising AEW is a picky nerd who goes over Dynamite with a fine tooth comb looking for things to be critical of but really the issues often are very easy to see and point out.

The Wood is correct that it makes no sense for The Dark Order to give themselves an evil name. Looking at real cult names you have things such as Heaven's Gate (Positive), Peoples Temple (Positive), The Manson Family (Positive), Children Of God (Positive). Of course all these cults did horrible things or were lead by horrible people but upon being approached to join it probably genuinely sounded like a very positive thing to many people.

Brodie Lee no matter how whacked out he is should feel he is right and that he is good and everyone else is bad but instead him naming his cult "The Dark Order" just shows he's evil, knows he's evil and anyone who joins is being asked "Hey, want to be evil with me?". 

Also, to briefly touch on kayfabe I'm sure the very people on this forum get super pissed off when a movie doesn't make sense. "It's fake so it doesn't matter" wouldn't be an excuse if in the next Creed movie we saw Creed rub oil on his opponent and throw jabs at him that slips off the opposing boxers skin.


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

PavelGaborik said:


> It makes perfect sense. You spend your days and nights overanalyzing what is essentially a borderline male soap opera with wrestling matches. You nowere literally just openly criticizing why anyone/any group would want to associate themselves with "Dark" or "Darkness" and even went as far as to talk about the "Dark side" in Star Wars. It's not that complicated why the Dark Knight was brought up, don't play stupid.
> If you're expecting "kayfabe" to make a return during the social media days with characters breaking character on a routine basis then I suggest you stop watching, it's not going to happen no matter how much you pout online about it. It's a waste of your time quite frankly.
> 
> People are out of Wrestling because there are real genuine alternatives now for one. MMA's rapid spike in popularity provides individuals with an alternative full of drama and at the end of the day - real unscripted fights. That is just something that Pro Wrestling isn't going to be able to keep up with in 2020 no matter how hard they "try to keep kayfabe"
> ...


Sigh, here we go again: 

Another wrestling fan who wants to ridicule wrestling in order to try and take down someone actually thinking about it. That just makes you look bad. Wrestling at its best is an excellent form of entertainment. At its worst, it is absolute trash like you imply. I'll take my version, thanks. 

No, it is complicated why The Dark Knight was brought up. What does that have to do with the price of eggs? Batman is a fiction not unlike Star Wars. I explained why that isn't a good explanation here, then even went into detail about why it makes sense for Batman and not Brodie Lee.

Wrestling without kayfabe is a waste of time, actually. People can still be worked if actual talent put actual effort in. 

Wrestling and boxing existed side-by-side for decades and decades. MMA could be scripted for all you know and that doesn't matter. You could use some "overanalyzing" here, because your analysis is not complete. 

The Ministry of Darkness was in 1999, and the angle bombed compared to the standards of the time. Well, bombed is a strong word. But Taker lost ratings far more than most other acts did. It wasn't good.


----------



## Cult03 (Oct 31, 2016)

The Wood said:


> Wrestling without kayfabe is a waste of time, actually..


Yep. No coincedence that wrestling started losing it's steam the less serious it was taken by those in the business. Every wink at the camera makes me less interested in the product. I'm tired of rolling my eyes and being forced to remember just how uncool this shit is and why I always kept my interest in wrestling to myself. Even the fans who claim they love AEW hate the business.


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

So many people in wrestling are so self-conscious about actually being in the wrestling business. It's weird and off-putting.


----------



## Erik. (Mar 17, 2014)

The Wood said:


> Wrestling without kayfabe is a waste of time, actually. People can still be worked if actual talent put actual effort in.


Kayfabe has been dead for nearly 30+ years. 

Yet you've continued to watch something that's a waste of your time?


----------



## PavelGaborik (Oct 30, 2015)

The Wood said:


> Sigh, here we go again:
> 
> Another wrestling fan who wants to ridicule wrestling in order to try and take down someone actually thinking about it. That just makes you look bad. Wrestling at its best is an excellent form of entertainment. At its worst, it is absolute trash like you imply. I'll take my version, thanks.
> 
> ...


Movies are scripted and fictional, Professional Wrestling is scripted and fictional. You refusing to accept this as an answer is doing nothing but making you come across as a 50 year old Mark refusing to let go of the glory days. Your "explanation" was poor to be blunt. You answered your own question and then brushed it aside as if it weren't an acceptable answer - Because we both know you've been told this countless times in the past.

You going on a rant about the Dark Order being named after literal shade. Nobody cared about the Dark Knight being associated with it, nobody cared about the Sith being associated with it. Nobody should care about a fucking fictional wrestling stable using it either. That is whining for the sake of it.

MMA and Wrestling are FAR more comparable than boxing and Wrestling. One is literally hand fighting and the other incorporates (mostly)all elements of martial arts into their bouts. The sports are significantly more similar hence why were seeing a lot more washed up MMA fighters than boxers making the transition relatively quickly to Pro Wrestling. A lot of these guys have grappling experience in the past.

If you knew much about the subject you would know that before MMA became truly mainstream in North America there were a plethora of MMA fighters in Japan alternating between the Pro Wrestling world and PrideFC

To this day we still see far more Professional Wrestlers with pro MMA experience rather than pro boxing experience. This isn't even taking in to account the fact that MMA (the UFC) puts on far more notable events and is significantly more popular than boxing in 2020.


I don't have statistics for each segment from the 1990's so I can't truthfully know if what you're saying is accurate or not.

PS : The Ministry of darkness did debut in very early 1999 - but the storyline began in 1998.


----------



## PavelGaborik (Oct 30, 2015)

Erik. said:


> Kayfabe has been dead for nearly 30+ years.
> 
> Yet you've continued to watch something that's a waste of your time?


That's the issue with his criticism. He constantly complains about kayfabe being broken and how he can't stomach how "unrealistic" and "awful" Wrestling is without kayfabe and yet here he is, daily. 

I've been plenty critical of AEW and their product - but I've also been quite positive when they deserve it as well. I wouldn't be on this forum a full calendar year later if it wasn't my cup of tea. 

The guy acts like a failed movie critic who pops up on a wrestling forum every night after he sipped on a few too many IPA's to issue the same complaints he made in a separate thread several hours earlier. 

Evidently he's been wasting a lot of his precious time because he's been here commenting on the product daily for quite some time now.


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

Erik. said:


> Kayfabe has been dead for nearly 30+ years.
> 
> Yet you've continued to watch something that's a waste of your time?


I don't watch much new stuff at all for that very reason. Swing and a miss. 



PavelGaborik said:


> Movies are scripted and fictional, Professional Wrestling is scripted and fictional. You refusing to accept this as an answer is doing nothing but making you come across as a 50 year old Mark refusing to let go of the glory days. Your "explanation" was poor to be blunt. You answered your own question and then brushed it aside as if it weren't an acceptable answer - Because we both know you've been told this countless times in the past.
> 
> You going on a rant about the Dark Order being named after literal shade. Nobody cared about the Dark Knight being associated with it, nobody cared about the Sith being associated with it. Nobody should care about a fucking fictional wrestling stable using it either. That is whining for the sake of it.
> 
> ...


And this is why the fandom is a big problem with wrestling today. They relish in things being bad. 

Wrestling is not a movie. The whole point of wrestling is for it to be as close to reality as possible in order to engage people's emotions. _Your_ inability to accept this is why wrestling sucks and is in a hole at the moment. You can try and label my answer as poor to try and make it easier to dismiss, but I'll trust in people stopping by to be able to engage far more critically. The idea that wrestling is "supposed to be fake" is absolute bullshit. The fact that no one tries is not debatable, but this does not mean that it is a wise philosophical approach. A journalist might report events, but that does not mean they have to agree with them ethically. The problem with your suggestion that "kayfabe is dead, get over it," isn't that I disagree that kayfabe has been stomped into the ground -- it's that this is a _bad_ thing. This is a critical thing. This is the whole reason wrestling exists and now it's being ignored. The "wrestling is fiction" people are never able to engage with that point, and have to skirt around to "that's the way it is." Yeah, that's why I'm complaining. 

Also, as a rule, the people who think they are too smart for kayfabe are the easiest people to work. I only mention this because your use of the word "mark" annoys me there. And I generally like the word, because there's nothing wrong with it. The only people who get bothered by it are self-conscious "smart fans" who feel that the term insults their intelligence without really understanding it. The mark is whoever you are aiming your work at. Funnily enough, these are the same sort of people who thought that The Miz going off on Daniel Bryan on Talking Smack was "real," haha. And they're the ones who call CM Punk's promo a "worked shoot." Journalists would talk about fake blood and wrestlers going out for drinks with each other all the time back in the day. They actually worked themselves. Just because you think kayfabe is dead doesn't mean it is. People keep their own all the time, and the idiosyncrasies of human nature are very easy to manipulate. 

Yes, I do go on about The Dark Order being named as such. _It makes no sense._ It's not supposed to be fantasy, yet here we are a _cult_ naming themselves The *Dark* Order. It's fucking stupid. I've already said all this, and the fact that you've got nothing new to add just means you're not hearing my point: At least Star Wars is a fantasy, but even then as a kid I thought "The Dark Side" was stupid. But it's pantomime. The Dark Knight is _supposed_ to put fear into people's hearts and minds. That makes sense. The Dark Order is _supposed_ to be recruiting people. Why would they want to make themselves scary and evil? This level of pantomime in wrestling is not okay. It doesn't work as a children's puppet show. It's not "whining for the sake of it," it's questioning why I am being fed a plate full of shit and told it's gravy. 

Boxing and wrestling are actually cousins. A lot of promoters promoted both. They have an entangled history. MMA and wrestling and easier for your to compare now because MMA does pro-wrestling better than pro-wrestling, and the irony of that aside, it's easier for your argument. I don't know what your point about the popularity of MMA and boxing in 2020 has to do with _anything_. I'm not talking about their popularity today -- I'm just shredding your point that wrestling cannot exist alongside "legitimate" competition. That's a load of shit and stop trying to change the conversation. Also irrelevant are your points about MMA fighters crossing over into wrestling and vice versa. That's got nothing to do with what I'm saying AT ALL. That, combined with your constant tepid insults (despite being accused of condescending, I do my absolute best to not blatantly insult people here -- you should try it), suggests to me that you're trying to sound _way_ smarter than you actually are. Like, why would you bring up the "storyline" for the Ministry of Darkness starting in 1998 if the Ministry formed in 1999? We were talking about the Ministry, so obviously we would be talking about 1999. It's "whataboutism" that doesn't actually even cover what you were trying to talk about, haha. 



PavelGaborik said:


> That's the issue with his criticism. He constantly complains about kayfabe being broken and how he can't stomach how "unrealistic" and "awful" Wrestling is without kayfabe and yet here he is, daily.
> 
> I've been plenty critical of AEW and their product - but I've also been quite positive when they deserve it as well. I wouldn't be on this forum a full calendar year later if it wasn't my cup of tea.
> 
> ...


More attempts at ad hominem. It's all people get left with, eventually. I've gone on record as saying that I am obsessed with wrestling -- it's history, the development of it, the business of it. Are you trying to shame me for giving a shit? It's not going to work, because your opinion of me means very, very little. If it weren't so feeble and obvious an attempt to discredit someone for having an opinion you can't argue against, it would kind of be bullying. The irony of implying that someone is a loser for posting in a wrestling forum...on a wrestling forum...is too rich, lol. I'll trust passers by to see that for themselves. 

And there's another classic: "I've been plenty critical of AEW and their product." Cool. So you won't have a problem with me doing it then. Unless it's just you that's allowed to because you're special. ;-) I don't give a shit what you'd do if something wasn't your cup of tea. I don't tell people how to live their lives. If they want to watch bad wrestling, they can watch bad wrestling. I can tell them why it's bad. That's more fun than watching the actual wrestling a lot of the time. But yeah, don't try to shame people because you don't have meaty arguments. It's not a good look. 

More insults. You're getting dangerously close to going full Garty and trolling. There's no substance behind your comments, just attempts to assassinate someone's character. I mean, disagree with me about wrestling if you have to, but I will absolutely not be labelled an IPA drinker. 

Not a waste of my time. Talking and writing about wrestling is something I enjoy. I hope you feel good about trying to make someone feel bad about something they enjoy. At least I make people feel bad by making actual points that apparently fry their brains.


----------



## PavelGaborik (Oct 30, 2015)

The Wood said:


> I don't watch much new stuff at all for that very reason. Swing and a miss.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You brought up the movie comparisons, not me. I didn't say Wrestling was a movie, I stated it was fictional. Wrestling is fictional, movies are fictional. They have that in common. Wrestling is here to entertain us first and foremost. I mean we're talking semantics at this point but I suggest you rewatch the Star Wars movie if you're under the impression the Sith and Palpatine weren't actively recruiting Jedi. That is essentially what the entire what all three trilogies are focused on, literally.

Personally I'm 25 years old - I don't have much experience with kayfabe being alive, because it's literally been 6 feet under since I was born. I can't relate, I wasn't alive in the 80's. I'm not the one sitting on the edge of my seat expecting to experience it again, I don't need kayfabe to exist to enjoy wrestling that's your issue, not mine.

How exactly are boxing and Pro Wrestling cousins? Boxing has semantics and hand fighting and literal hand fighting only. Truth be told I can name an abundance of Pro-wrestlers who can throw a nasty kick, knee or elbow as far as actual boxing goes? Off the top of my head I genuinely can't name anyone who throws realistic, technical combinations in the sport, can you? I can name a multitude of Pro Wrestlers who perform wheel kicks, round house kicks, elbows, knees, takedowns, submissions etc etc and make it look believable, if not down right great in certain cases.

The first ever Pride event was literally built around Nobuhiko Takada. Takada's Union of Wrestling Forces International (UWFi) was built on shoot style matches with a focus on real holds and transitions rather than big slams and high spots. MMA and Pro Wrestling have been compared right from the beginning, as far back as in 1994 when Yoji Anjo made the mistake of showcasing how worth against Dickson Gracie. To say it didn't work out would be quite the understatement.

Promotors dipping into other companies isn't exactly surprising. We've seen former pro-boxer Oscar De La Hoya literally dip his toe into the MMA world and hold an abysmal PPV headlined by a CTE suffering 50 year old Chuck Liddell. Promotors are in the game to earn money, that's nothing new. If boxing and Pro Wrestling are cousins, they're very distant cousins.

Nobody is calling you out for "being a loser" for posting on a wrestling, I'm pointing out the fact that you spend an awful lot of your time viewing and criticizing something that in your own words is a "waste of time".

I also made it perfectly clear directly underneath where I spoke of my criticism of AEW that I've had plenty of praise for the product as well. So I suggest you either finish reading the post you quote or look up the definition of "irony" because that isn't the first time you've used it out of context in the post above.

I'm not assassinating your character - I'm literally calling you out for having nothing(from my experience) positive to say about a product that you're extremely vocal about. Save the crocodile tears and stop taking things so literally, it'll be okay I promise. If you don't enjoy something a full calendar year after it's initial show - perhaps it's time to take a break or accept "hey maybe this isn't for me"

I have zero issues with individuals criticizing the product, I do have issue with individuals who make a habit of whining about the same things yet showing up on a weekly basis. You don't see me popping up daily in WWE complaining about how abysmal I find their product, do you? No. I tend to try to avoid wasting my hours spending time watching and commenting on a product that I thoroughly do not enjoy.

It isn't difficult to grasp why I brought MMA's popularity in comparison to boxing. MMA (the UFC) exploded in popularity at essentially the exact time that Pro Wrestling ratings began going down the tank.


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

PavelGaborik said:


> You brought up the movie comparisons, not me. I didn't say Wrestling was a movie, I stated it was fictional. Wrestling is fictional, movies are fictional. They have that in common. Wrestling is here to entertain us first and foremost. I mean we're talking semantics at this point but I suggest you rewatch the Star Wars movie if you're under the impression the Sith and Palpatine weren't actively recruiting Jedi. That is essentially what the entire what all three trilogies are focused on, literally.
> 
> Personally I'm 25 years old - I don't have much experience with kayfabe being alive, because it's literally been 6 feet under since I was born. I can't relate, I wasn't alive in the 80's. I'm not the one sitting on the edge of my seat expecting to experience it again, I don't need kayfabe to exist to enjoy wrestling that's your issue, not mine.
> 
> ...


I specifically brought up examples of fiction where characters identify themselves as evil as being irrelevant to the conversation, haha. You're the one doubling down on them. You keep going back to "wrestling is fictional" like it's a good standalone point. I've addressed that, and if you're going to keep replaying that same bad take, you're just being wilfully ignorant.

Jesus Christ, why would you go into the plot of Star Wars? It's completely irrelevant. Why these tangents? Are you confused, or are you trying to confuse? By the way, there can only be two Sith -- Sideous and Vader wanted to kill the Jedi, bub. Get it straight.

It's wrestling's issue. That's why wrestling sucks and why it keeps decreasing in popularity. It's really lovely you can enjoy something as pointless as wrestling without the wrestling, but that's why people like me do our part to try and reason with people as to why they should expect more and why they should want it to come back. I think my path is far less selfish, honestly.

I didn't say boxing and MMA were cousins. I said boxing and wrestling were cousins. Either you're not even bothering to read me properly, or you're trying to be deliberately sneaky. Boxing and wrestling are linked through their history. No clue why you are bringing up Pride. Again, irrelevant.

I don't need you to point out dick about how I _enjoy_ spending my time. That makes you a self-important asshole. Yes, I consider AEW a waste of time. I consider a lot of movies I see a waste of time too. It doesn't mean I don't enjoy discussing them with people. You are trying to judge people on what and how they choose to engage with things. Either engage with my actual points, or keep your feeble opinion about what I choose to enjoy out of your mouth. You're crossing over into bad taste territory whether you want to admit it about yourself or not. Step back before you go full Garty. And for fuck's sake, stop trying to tell people what to do. I raise contentious points about AEW, but I don't tell people to stop watching or get off the boards. That's your gross little trick.

AEW is a multi-million dollar promotion. I don't owe it shit. I don't have to praise it if I don't want to. If they gave me stuff to praise, I'd praise it. That you are more easily amused than me is not necessarily to your credit. Honestly, AEW should be thankful for wrestling fans who still bother to follow it when most people who aren't sycophants have tuned the fuck out by now. I get criticized for not going into the WWE forum, and now it's being implied that if I did it would be wrong too. If you don't want to go into the WWE forums, good for you. That's _you_. I'm not you. I'm me, and I'll take being me, thanks. I LOVE posting about wrestling, even bad wrestling. It _is_ for me. Deal with it.

So your point is that wrestling would have been better off presenting itself seriously like MMA and it may not have lost those fans? Excellent point. It seems you're finally starting to come around.

EDIT: Oh, and on irony: I used it twice above. The first was the irony that MMA does wrestling better than wrestling. That's very ironic. You would expect wrestling to do the better wrestling, no? Irony. The other time is when I pointed out that you criticizing someone for how they post about wrestling on a wrestling board is ironic. It's a different kind of irony, but you're telling people that anyone who takes wrestling seriously enough to hang out on a wrestling board must have some sort of character flaw..._on a wrestling board_. It seems to be an irony that is lost on you, but I'm sure many others will get it and find it humorous.


----------



## PavelGaborik (Oct 30, 2015)

The Wood said:


> I specifically brought up examples of fiction where characters identify themselves as evil as being irrelevant to the conversation, haha. You're the one doubling down on them. You keep going back to "wrestling is fictional" like it's a good standalone point. I've addressed that, and if you're going to keep replaying that same bad take, you're just being wilfully ignorant.
> 
> Jesus Christ, why would you go into the plot of Star Wars? It's completely irrelevant. Why these tangents? Are you confused, or are you trying to confuse? By the way, there can only be two Sith -- Sideous and Vader wanted to kill the Jedi, bub. Get it straight.
> 
> ...


"why would you go into the plot of Star Wars" - because you're clearly confused and literally just stated in your last post that the Dark Side wasn't interested in "recruiting" yet the OT was built around Vader recruiting Luke, the Prequels were built around Palpatine recruiting Anakin and the new atrocious trilogy which revolved around Smoke, Palpatine and Kylo attempting to recruit Mary Sue, Rey. 

If you read the rest of the paragraph you would've come to the realization that it was a typo. 

You watching a single movie you don't enjoy as opposed to a weekly television show is a terrible analogy, but I'm sure it worked in your head. 

I personally don't go out of my way to watch a movie I didn't enjoy. I would consider said movie a "waste of my time" and why would I want to continually waste my time on something I don't enjoy? 

What do you propose Pro Wrestling does to compete with MMA? The main attraction is the fact that at the end of the day we get an unscripted, fist fight full of violence. At the end of the day that's more appealing than a scripted, fictional fight between two individuals no matter how "realistic" you attempt to present it. 

The fact is they're certainly different, but MMA is more appealing to a large amount of individuals and I can't blame them. Thankfully I can enjoy both for what they are - but the reality is the vast majority of blood thirsty marks have moved on to something that Pro Wrestling cannot compete with on a realism scale.


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

PavelGaborik said:


> "why would you go into the plot of Star Wars" - because you're clearly confused and literally just stated in your last post that the Dark Side wasn't interested in "recruiting" yet the OT was built around Vader recruiting Luke, the Prequels were built around Palpatine recruiting Anakin and the new atrocious trilogy which revolved around Smoke, Palpatine and Kylo attempting to recruit *Mary Sue, Rey.*
> 
> If you read the rest of the paragraph you would've come to the realization that it was a typo.
> 
> ...


Ah, I get it -- you're an incel. That explains a lot. 

Star Wars is _fucking irrelevant_. Holy shit, can I make this any more clear: Star Wars using the Dark Side is _fantasy_, wrestling is not supposed to be fantasy. They are *not* synonymous. Are you able to comprehend that or do you want me to do a giant paragraph explaining it? I'll do that in case there are others like you who just cannot grasp this point. 

I don't watch AEW every week. Nice try with the projection.

You keep going around in circles thinking the way you look at things is the only valid way, and that anyone who chooses to do things differently is inherently flawed. I reiterate: I love thinking about and talking about wrestling. It doesn't need to be good. I want it to be good, and I will appeal to its improvement. But I don't need content to be good to respond to it. You do. That's your business. I won't make you stop "wasting your time" watching bad wrestling if you don't try to make me stop "wasting" mine by talking about it. Deal? If you say yes, you can drop the holier than thou routine of "Well, _I_ wouldn't do this..." like you're an exemplar of shit. If you say "no," then you're just being an asshole. 

Psychology, good promos, captivating angles, feuds, blood in the right places -- it isn't fucking hard to compete with MMA. A lot of what hampers MMA is that it is so petrified of being scripted that it can't actually control where it has good fights and what the outcomes are. Wrestling gets to do that. It's not even like MMA is killing wrestling anyway. I played along because you coming around on the philosophy without even realizing it was a very quiet yet obvious win for me, but I'll defer to others who follow the business of MMA -- when it comes to TV ratings I'm pretty sure wrestling still kills UFC. 

It doesn't _try_ to compete with it on a realism scale. It threw in the towel and constantly chases away all the people who gave a shit about it once upon a time. There's no reason people can't like MMA _and_ wrestling, which you even admit to yourself, but wrestling gave up its ground and is now just appealing to the people who don't even want to see how the sausage is made, but want to see how plastic sausages are made. Wrestling is the only thing I can think of that has rejected its own genre.


----------



## PavelGaborik (Oct 30, 2015)

The Wood said:


> Ah, I get it -- you're an incel. That explains a lot.
> 
> Star Wars is _fucking irrelevant_. Holy shit, can I make this any more clear: Star Wars using the Dark Side is _fantasy_, wrestling is not supposed to be fantasy. They are *not* synonymous. Are you able to comprehend that or do you want me to do a giant paragraph explaining it? I'll do that in case there are others like you who just cannot grasp this point.
> 
> ...



They're both SCRIPTED and FICTIONAL. Do you comprehend it now? You keep attempting analogies with movies you've proven to be nothing short of clueless about. Now that you've been called out you're throwing temper tantrums. You attempted to compare a storyline you're literally clueless about to a professional wrestling storyline. You didn't do it for no reason - it was brought up for a reason. Now we both now know you're absolutely clueless about Star Wars outside of the fact that there is a "Dark side"

If you didn't play pseudo intellectual and let the Star Wars plot go instead of embarrassing yourself and attempting to explain it to me I wouldn't have needed to continue to correct you. I'm sure in your mind you had a great "point" didn't quite play out that way though kiddo, better luck next time.

I have a feeling that'll be the end of you bringing that up so let me focus on the rest now :

I don't think my line of thinking is the only logical way to view a promotion. I never stated that. You have an unfortunate way of debating individuals that depends almost solely on overwhelming the individual with "What you're saying is" when in reality I haven't said or even implied the vast majority of what you're saying.


I think you should probably focus more on watching MMA before you make the same mistake you made above with Star Wars - because you're dangerously close to threading the needle.

Believe me - if you followed MMA you would be well aware they can certainly "control the outcomes" with their blatantly corrupt judging.

You didn't "Play along" it's a literal fact that the UFC rose to prominence at the exact same time Wrestling ratings TANKED.

The top MMA organization in the world (the UFC) doesn't even have their fight nights on cable TV anymore, they're on an app. The giant gap between the two is the fact that the UFC can literally rack up nearly (and over with huge events) 1 million PPV buys. They're on an entirely different level than Pro Wrestling right now

I'm not the one "wasting my time" watching something I've made blatantly obvious I don't enjoy - that's you. You sure have a lot to say about something on a daily basis that you don't keep up with on a weekly basis.

Based on what you're saying it sounds like it's time to let go and join the dark side (MMA)


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

PavelGaborik said:


> They're both SCRIPTED and FICTIONAL. Do you comprehend it now? You keep attempting analogies with movies you've proven to be nothing short of clueless about. Now that you've been called out you're throwing temper tantrums. You attempted to compare a storyline you're literally clueless about to a professional wrestling storyline. You didn't do it for no reason - it was brought up for a reason. Now we both now know you're absolutely clueless about Star Wars outside of the fact that there is a "Dark side"
> 
> If you didn't play pseudo intellectual and let the Star Wars plot go instead of embarrassing yourself and attempting to explain it to me I wouldn't have needed to continue to correct you. I'm sure in your mind you had a great "point" didn't quite play out that way though kiddo, better luck next time.
> 
> ...


I don’t normally snap, but this post is just embarrassing. Are you seriously trying to flex about Star Wars? By the way, it sounds like you’re a massive fan with the way you talk about them, haha. More irony writ large. Everyone has seen Star Wars, dude. Everyone knows they try to get the Jedi to give in to the dark side before they cut them with a lightsaber or fry them with lightning. I don’t know why you think that’s important, especially because...

*Wrestling is not supposed to be scripted, nor is it supposed to be presented as fictional.* You keep ignoring me on this point to go on irrelevant rants about Star Wars or Batman. Gee, such arcane knowledge. You stating that it is completely misses the point.

Serious question, is English your second language? If so, I’ll let you go, but _I_ didn’t draw analogies to fiction. _You_ did. I explained why they don’t count. You keep going back to this and I feel that something must be getting lost in translation.

Why do you think it’ll be the last you’ll hear of it from me? In fact, I’ll just repeat my point: A fictional space opera having a “dark side” doesn’t make much sense, but at least it thematically fits a pantomime universe. Wrestling does not operate like that though — it requires itself to be based in real human conflict. So why would Brodie Lee start up a cult called The *Dark* Order. It sounds like Star Wars fanfic, not a wrestling gimmick.

You keep implying that anyone who watches something they don’t enjoy should just give it up, because you wouldn’t do that. Inherent in that is the implication that the way you consume entertainment is the valid way.

Great, MMA controlling outcomes is another way that MMA does wrestling better than wrestling. You’re actually making my own points for me now. Thanks!

I said _you_ played along. I’m not playing along with anything. And yeah, you again made my point for me. UFC rises as wrestling sucks. Hmm... Maybe think before you shoot off next reply.

You’re just doing again what you said you don’t do, haha. “Maybe it’s time to go dark,” “You’re wasting your time.” You’re telling people how to be. Well, I’ll against just reiterate that I love talking about bad wrestling even more than I do good wrestling sometimes. I’d prefer to watch good stuff, don’t get me wrong, but I’ll talk about bad stuff all day long, and your opinion on that is worth squat to me.

Ultimately, you’re not even aware of what you’re saying. That much is clear. You’re pretty desperate to try and slam me by anything you can grab that you’re actually eating your own arguments, turning to personal insults and are clearly getting disoriented. You’re going on and on about Star Wars and MMA all the whilst contradicting yourself. Take a deep breath, step back and ease up on the gas before you Garty yourself.


----------



## Awareness (Jun 11, 2015)

In defense of the Ministry of Darkness they were very clearly angled as being more of a doomsday cult than one that uses "self betterment" or personal ascension as a selling point ala Dark Order. 

I mean there are new religious movements out there called things like Temple of Set. Not exactly the most friendly sounding thing. Crazy shit is crazy at the end of the day.


----------



## PavelGaborik (Oct 30, 2015)

The Wood said:


> I don’t normally snap, but this post is just embarrassing. Are you seriously trying to flex about Star Wars? By the way, it sounds like you’re a massive fan with the way you talk about them, haha. More irony writ large. Everyone has seen Star Wars, dude. Everyone knows they try to get the Jedi to give in to the dark side before they cut them with a lightsaber or fry them with lightning. I don’t know why you think that’s important, especially because...
> 
> *Wrestling is not supposed to be scripted, nor is it supposed to be presented as fictional.* You keep ignoring me on this point to go on irrelevant rants about Star Wars or Batman. Gee, such arcane knowledge. You stating that it is completely misses the point.
> 
> ...



Now he's big mad -- watch out he's throwing a level 2 temper tantrum.

Stop talking about things you're clueless about (crazy concept I know) and maybe I won't feel the need to correct you on it. The Sith(Palpatine) recruit Jedi for the most part in an attempt to replace older past their prime(or just weaker in general) Sith. Their entire storyline is literally based upon their thirst for power and recruiting individuals who can help them attain their goals. You on the other hand were babbling about how the "Dark side isn't actively recruiting individuals" or whatever nonsense you said - hence why you were corrected.

You've had the same circular argument throughout the entire ordeal. "Wrestling isn't supposed to be presented as fictional or fake" Okay, but everybody in 2020 is well aware that it is. Kayfabe is dead and has been since the 1980's. You can attempt to make things as realistic as you want but at the end of the day everybody is still well aware of the fact that this is fiction. Your idea of what Professional Wrestling should be does not have to align with mine - that's okay, I'm not attempting to convince you otherwise. I mean, I think no matter how hard you try to present your fictional programming as "real" it's always going to come up massively short against the likes of MMA which is genuinely real. They don't have to pretend, or act....they actually fight, but again while I might consider that common sense, it is merely my view.

I'm not implying you should stop watching Professional Wrestling - I'm giving you alternatives to what you literally labeled a "waste of time"

You can still watch something you hate, I mean I personally think watching something that I consider a "waste of time" counter productive but at the same time you've essentially admitted at this point you only watch the program to "discuss" it. Not particularly sure why you're so eager to share your negative views on something that you clearly dislike, it almost seems as if you come on to the forums to debate first and foremost. Essentially you're a borderline troll, and now that you've been called out for it you're throwing a bit of a hissy fit. You're quite condescending but when somebody gives you the same treatments you react with crocodile tears and play the "poor me" victim card. I suppose not everyone can dish it and take it, food for thought.


Ah yes we're now back to your dislike for the Dark Order using shade in their name. This is nitpicking to the point where it's tough to even acknowledge. They're literally portrayed as a cult who dress in dark colors. It's not that complex.

"MMA controlling outcomes is another thing that MMA does better than Pro Wrestling"

Are you literally attempting to use my own argument against me? I mean I've been pretty adamant on my stance from the beginning : Professional Wrestling cannot compete with MMA on a realism scale. Wrestling need to implement other things to accommodate(storylines, comedy etc) for this to make their product appealing to the viewer - because if you're offering a casual viewer the opportunity to watch a real fight where anything can happen vs a scripted predetermined fictional bout it's difficult to imagine many individuals choosing the latter.

MMA's rise to the mainstream having an impact on the Wrestling audience was my point, not yours kiddo. 

You say you don't care what I think of your stance yet here you are paragraph after paragraph later attempting to convince me it's logical.


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

Awareness said:


> In defense of the Ministry of Darkness they were very clearly angled as being more of a doomsday cult than one that uses "self betterment" or personal ascension as a selling point ala Dark Order.
> 
> I mean there are new religious movements out there called things like Temple of Set. Not exactly the most friendly sounding thing. Crazy shit is crazy at the end of the day.


Oh yeah, fair enough. No argument on that front here. I dislike it mainly because it sucked, haha. 



PavelGaborik said:


> Now he's big mad -- watch out he's throwing a level 2 temper tantrum.


And you're attempting to appear above it all by acting condescending. Actually, it's been you trying to throw shade and resort to insults. If anyone is spiralling out here, it's you. I will point to more examples later.




PavelGaborik said:


> Stop talking about things you're clueless about (crazy concept I know) and maybe I won't feel the need to correct you on it. The Sith(Palpatine) recruit Jedi for the most part in an attempt to replace older past their prime(or just weaker in general) Sith. Their entire storyline is literally based upon their thirst for power and recruiting individuals who can help them attain their goals. You on the other hand were babbling about how the "Dark side isn't actively recruiting individuals" or whatever nonsense you said - hence why you were corrected.


Dude, everyone has seen Star Wars. Everyone knows about Order 66 and the Sith's attempts to execute all the Jedi.The main purpose of the Sith is to be the antagonists to the Jedi/heroes. The Jedi are not lining up to audition for roles in The Empire. It's a fantastic pantomime set in space. _That_ was my point about why it isn't relevant when discussing professional wrestling. You "correcting people" on the subject is just being purposely obtuse and kind of proving that you don't understand what the actual topic of discussion is, because you're still treating this thing as if it is analogous, which I stated as an offside that it is almost completely opposite. 




PavelGaborik said:


> You've had the same circular argument throughout the entire ordeal. "Wrestling isn't supposed to be presented as fictional or fake" *Okay, but everybody in 2020 is well aware that it is.* Kayfabe is dead and has been since the 1980's. You can attempt to make things as realistic as you want but at the end of the day everybody is still well aware of the fact that this is fiction. Your idea of what Professional Wrestling should be does not have to align with mine - that's okay, I'm not attempting to convince you otherwise. I mean, I think no matter how hard you try to present your fictional programming as "real" it's always going to come up massively short against the likes of MMA which is genuinely real. They don't have to pretend, or act....they actually fight, but again while I might consider that common sense, it is merely my view.


That doesn't fucking matter. If I keep going around in circles it's because you can't move past this point, therefore it needs to keep being reiterated. It doesn't matter if people _know_ it isn't a shoot. That isn't important or relevant when it comes to treating it like it is. MMA is fake. Anyone can say that. Everyone should know that there is something going wonky in all sports. Yet people still believe it is "real." Why? Because they don't smack you over the head with bullshit and insult your intelligence. And, for the record, it doesn't matter if MMA is real or not for the purposes of that argument. What is important is that you don't know for fucking sure, so you can take whichever path you want with it. With wrestling, all you've got is bullshit. 




PavelGaborik said:


> I'm not implying you should stop watching Professional Wrestling - I'm giving you alternatives to what you literally labeled a "waste of time"


You don't know what I do or don't watch. This is the height of arrogance. Don't try and backpedal from it -- this is you trying to be a condescending ass that thinks their way is the right way, all the while ironically getting upset that people tell you their way (which you also claim to don't have a problem with). It's no concern of yours how I spend my time, and you don't get a say in that. 




PavelGaborik said:


> You can still watch something you hate, I mean I personally think watching something that I consider a "waste of time" counter productive but at the same time you've essentially admitted at this point you only watch the program to "discuss" it. Not particularly sure why you're so eager to share your negative views on something that you clearly dislike, it almost seems as if you come on to the forums to debate first and foremost. Essentially you're a borderline troll, and now that you've been called out for it you're throwing a bit of a hissy fit. You're quite condescending but when somebody gives you the same treatments you react with crocodile tears and play the "poor me" victim card. I suppose not everyone can dish it and take it, food for thought.


* Yes, you can still watch something you don't like. 

* I honestly couldn't give two shits about what you consider counter-productive. You've spent the last few posts gloating about a poor knowledge of Star Wars. Imagine thinking that the Sith went around actively recruiting Jedi to join their ranks. Hahahaha!

* I've explained countless times on here why I love talking about wrestling. But it's also none of your business, really. Why I choose to spend my time trying to discuss how wrestling could be a lot better really doesn't concern you. 

* No, I'm not a troll. There's always substance in my posts -- something constructive. A lot of your ilk just get really sore about it and result to name-calling and projecting, including calling me a troll and calling my reasonable points a "hissy fit." 

* Yes, people being condescending asses to me on this board has scared me off. That explains my dangerously low participation. 



PavelGaborik said:


> *Ah yes we're now back to your dislike for the Dark Order using shade in their name.* This is nitpicking to the point where it's tough to even acknowledge. They're literally portrayed as a cult who dress in dark colors. It's not that complex.


Of course we're back to that -- that's the point of this entire conversation. Did you get lost trying to flex about seeing the original trilogy? Yes, the point is that the name "The Dark Order" is fucking stupid. It's not nitpicking -- it's fucking stupid. I'm glad they are literally portrayed and not figuratively portrayed as a cult that dress in dark colors, but either way, it's fucking stupid. 



PavelGaborik said:


> "MMA controlling outcomes is another thing that MMA does better than Pro Wrestling"
> 
> Are you literally attempting to use my own argument against me? I mean I've been pretty adamant on my stance from the beginning : Professional Wrestling cannot compete with MMA on a realism scale. Wrestling need to implement other things to accommodate(storylines, comedy etc) for this to make their product appealing to the viewer - because if you're offering a casual viewer the opportunity to watch a real fight where anything can happen vs a scripted predetermined fictional bout it's difficult to imagine many individuals choosing the latter.
> 
> ...


Yes, I am, because you ironically put your foot in your mouth a lot. Wrestling does not need to implement the things you think it does to be appealing. That is exactly why people have been pushed away from pro-wrestling to MMA, exactly as you suggested. You play right into a self-defeating scenario by presenting wrestling in the exact way you claim that people would not like it, haha. 

Ah, yes, "kiddo." And I'm the one having a hissy fit. For those who can't tell, this is Pavel trying to act above it all again and appear smug and secure. Because he knows his arguments don't hold up, he has to use condescending passive aggressive insults to dress them up. Yes, you introduced that point, but I flipped it on you, because you actually didn't think through why that is the case, and how pointing out that wrestling losing popularity as MMA gains its is _exactly why things like The Dark Order are fucking stupid._ People would rather watch good shit than bad shit. Driving people away with bad shit to watch good shit and then just vowing to do bad shit so you are different is absolutely bass ackwards, and _you_ actually brought it up.


----------



## PavelGaborik (Oct 30, 2015)

The Wood said:


> Oh yeah, fair enough. No argument on that front here. I dislike it mainly because it sucked, haha.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



If you've seen and genuinely remembered(or understood) the films you wouldn't have stated that recruiting didn't play a role in the films. That literally couldn't be further from the truth and the fact you would say something so ignorant regarding a topic you brought up I simply could not let go without correcting such blatant ignorance. The fact that you continue to repeat yourself and defend your honor regarding this particular subject is why it continues to be brought up. You've essentially typed the same thing multiple times now - and I've addressed it multiple times. Yes, Star Wars is a movie, It's fictional, It's fantasy. It's not real. I understand that - I'm a fan of the films because they entertain me. I watch them for entertainment purposes, that is essentially the very same reason I watch Professional Wrestling at the end of the day. Professional Wrestling is scripted fiction and is here to entertain us. It's not so much unlike plays and movies in that sense. I've taken the time to acknowledge essentially every "point" you're attempting to make and I've done so for quite some time so I have no idea what you're talking about in regards to the end of your initial paragraph.


Why does it not matter? "MMA is fake anyone can say that" Yes, they can - they can also say the sun is black but that would also be false. Judges in MMA certainly have a tendency of favoring their cash cows in close fights. At the end of the day we're still getting a real fight where anything can happen at any given time. It's become clear at this point that you don't watch MMA and believe that all Pro Wrestling fans are literal morons because you would have to be a complete moron to not realize within several seconds that Professional Wrestling matches are not real. How many street fights have you seen growing up where guys slap their legs after every kick and do 450 splashes off the top rope? I haven't seen many. I can't imagine many people at the top of the sport (in MMA) willingly letting somebody rock their brains with a right hand and knock them unconscious or literally break their arms. "It doesn't matter if MMA is real or not for the sake of the argument" Oh, but it certainly does - It's a real fight at the end of the day. It's presented as a real fight and it delivers on the promise - at the end of the day you're getting a real fight. Unscripted violence where a right hand or an armbar can change the tide of a fight at any given moment. No matter how hard you try to go out of your way to promote the realism of Professional Wrestling at the end of the day it's blatantly obvious to anyone watching the two which is genuinely real and what is clearly fictional. They're always going to come up drastically short of competing with actual sports in regards to realism. That's not an opinion - that is a fact.


- You would be wise to stop presenting your opinions as fact - you have a bad habit of doing this. You not being particularly fond of something doesn't mean somebody else cannot enjoy it. I grew up in the attitude era/Ruthless aggression era where storylines were about as goofy and cheesy as one could imagine. Granted I was quite young at the time but that is what I've known Professional Wrestling to be my entire life. I fell in love with the storylines, the blood, violence and athleticism. I'm not tuning into Professional Wrestling hoping for it to fill a void that was never there - I've been aware since I was a very young child watching Wrestling in the early 2000's that what I was watching was clearly not real. I didn't watch it for it's "sports based presentation" then and I don't watch it for that now. I do like some elements of real life sports being implemented into the product to be certainly, but that's far from one of the first things I'm tuning in for when I turn on Dynamite, NXT, MLW the NWA or NJPW. I can't even bother to tune in to watch RAW or Smackdown anymore (especially since the pandemic started) so I can't really comment on those shows outside of one or two here and there. I understand you want Wrestling PRESENTED in a realistic manner - I'm saying at the end of the day the matches aren't going to live up to that presentation.


There's no back peddling - I'm literally telling you that MMA sounds like it would fill the void with a lot of what your complaints seem to be about Professional Wrestling. If it's purely realism you're seeking, why not give a genuine combat sport an attempt? Again with the crocodile tears... Sigh


Wrestling doesn't need to implement comedy, storytelling etc to attract viewers? Interesting because I remember both of those things being at the height of their prominence in the late 1990's and early 2000's when Professional Wrestling was on a major upswing and garnering massive ratings across the board in multiple promotions. The issue is you're under the impression that EVERYBODY is on the same page as you when it's become evident at this point that is not the case.

- For somebody accusing me of attempting to deflect away from the original conversation you sure do enjoy bringing your ignorance of the Star Wars Universe into the equation. To be blunt : The Sith don't have strict recruitment guidelines : They will recruit anyone or anything that they believe will garner them more power. We've seen them actively recruit multiple Jedi throughout their history. From a mass amount of Dark Jedi students in the Old Republic age all the way to the blatant on screen recruitment and attempted recruitment of Anakin, Rey, Ben Solo, and Luke. All were force sensitive Jedi/Students who were recruited or attempted to be recruited by the Dark Side. So yes, they do have quite a lengthy history of recruiting/attempting to recruit Jedi's/Students.

"Things like the Dark Order are why people are drawn away from Pro Wrestling because it's bad"

This is literally an opinion with no substance behind it. Something that has become a common theme with each passing novel you write up. If you're upset about something as silly as a dark dressing cult being named after shade you're going to be a very, very difficult man to please. There are a lot of things AEW has done wrong that I have gripes with (Marko Stunt, overbooking matches with jobbers so nobody looks weak, SCU winning the tag titles etc ) there are a long list of genuine complaints to be made out there that if corrected would drastically improve the product - this isn't one of them.

You've explained that you enjoy discussing something that you've labeled a "waste of time" and bad. Sure sounds like you like the idea of engaging in debates with strangers on an internet forum.

Finally - Yes I would absolutely consider willingly "wasting my time" to be counter productive and quite frankly stupid as fuck.


----------



## Danielallen1410 (Nov 21, 2016)

PavelGaborik said:


> If you've seen and genuinely remembered(or understood) the films you wouldn't have stated that recruiting didn't play a role in the films. That literally couldn't be further from the truth and the fact you would say something so ignorant regarding a topic you brought up I simply could not let go without correcting such blatant ignorance. The fact that you continue to repeat yourself and defend your honor regarding this particular subject is why it continues to be brought up. You've essentially typed the same thing multiple times now - and I've addressed it multiple times. Yes, Star Wars is a movie, It's fictional, It's fantasy. It's not real. I understand that - I'm a fan of the films because they entertain me. I watch them for entertainment purposes, that is essentially the very same reason I watch Professional Wrestling at the end of the day. Professional Wrestling is scripted fiction and is here to entertain us. It's not so much unlike plays and movies in that sense. I've taken the time to acknowledge essentially every "point" you're attempting to make and I've done so for quite some time so I have no idea what you're talking about in regards to the end of your initial paragraph.
> 
> 
> Why does it not matter? "MMA is fake anyone can say that" Yes, they can - they can also say the sun is black but that would also be false. Judges in MMA certainly have a tendency of favoring their cash cows in close fights. At the end of the day we're still getting a real fight where anything can happen at any given time. It's become clear at this point that you don't watch MMA and believe that all Pro Wrestling fans are literal morons because you would have to be a complete moron to not realize within several seconds that Professional Wrestling matches are not real. How many street fights have you seen growing up where guys slap their legs after every kick and do 450 splashes off the top rope? I haven't seen many. I can't imagine many people at the top of the sport (in MMA) willingly letting somebody rock their brains with a right hand and knock them unconscious or literally break their arms. "It doesn't matter if MMA is real or not for the sake of the argument" Oh, but it certainly does - It's a real fight at the end of the day. It's presented as a real fight and it delivers on the promise - at the end of the day you're getting a real fight. Unscripted violence where a right hand or an armbar can change the tide of a fight at any given moment. No matter how hard you try to go out of your way to promote the realism of Professional Wrestling at the end of the day it's blatantly obvious to anyone watching the two which is genuinely real and what is clearly fictional. They're always going to come up drastically short of competing with actual sports in regards to realism. That's not an opinion - that is a fact.
> ...


nailed it.

this should be the end of the conversation but it won’t.

basically a knock out blow.


----------



## Dizzie (Jun 22, 2019)

If there weren't already enough comedy schtick in aew I would say the only way to save the dark order is just them into a comedy act like they try to be scary but always fall on their face which is basically already what they are doing lol


----------



## PavelGaborik (Oct 30, 2015)

Danielallen1410 said:


> nailed it.
> 
> this should be the end of the conversation but it won’t.
> 
> ...


Some individuals are too thickheaded and proud for their own good.

Unless he adds something of genuine substance instead of once again attempting to speak for Wrestling fans all over the globe and presenting his own opinions as facts I'm no longer interested in engaging.

As I stated before - I view engaging in things that have become a clear "waste of time" illogical and counter productive to say the least.


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

Sigh, you won't stop smacking your face against my foot, will you?



PavelGaborik said:


> If you've seen and genuinely remembered(or understood) the films you wouldn't have stated that recruiting didn't play a role in the films. That literally couldn't be further from the truth and the fact you would say something so ignorant regarding a topic you brought up I simply could not let go without correcting such blatant ignorance. The fact that you continue to repeat yourself and defend your honor regarding this particular subject is why it continues to be brought up.


Star Wars is not hard to understand. Where did recruiting play a role in the films? Actual recruiting? I can't even remember that being a plot for the Stormtroopers. In fact, at one point they were using clones to actively avoid the process. I don't think you understand this excruciatingly simple story as much as you think you do. Can you highlight one point in the films where the Sith tried to recruit Jedi to their side? Seems bizarrely scarce for something that is "literally" the plot. How many Jedi were working for Palpatine at the end?

It doesn't "keep coming up." That's just a blatant lie. We haven't dropped it, which is my fault because I keep threading you along this path instead of simply emphasizing: *It doesn't fucking matter. The reason I brought it up in the first place was an example of fiction which doesn't carry into wrestling. Even if Anakin hadn't of killed all the children and instead taken them to Korriban as you seem to weirdly suggest, then it's still not an analogous story. Somehow you do not comprehend this. Why?*



PavelGaborik said:


> You've essentially typed the same thing multiple times now - and I've addressed it multiple times. Yes, Star Wars is a movie, It's fictional, It's fantasy. It's not real. I understand that - I'm a fan of the films because they entertain me. I watch them for entertainment purposes, that is essentially the very same reason I watch Professional Wrestling at the end of the day. Professional Wrestling is scripted fiction and is here to entertain us. It's not so much unlike plays and movies in that sense. I've taken the time to acknowledge essentially every "point" you're attempting to make and I've done so for quite some time so I have no idea what you're talking about in regards to the end of your initial paragraph.


And this is why wrestling is in a hole. It is that simple. You "address" this yourself when you point out that people would rather watch MMA these days (not completely true, but true enough philosophically). You're actually wrong on a couple of levels.

1. If people would rather watch MMA than pro-wrestling, then it suggests that MMA is offering something that pro-wrestling no longer does.

2. That more people still watch wrestling regularly proves that wrestling doesn't need to go extinct just because MMA exists like you suggest it would if it were presented seriously.

In addition to that, you keep avoiding the issue that people knowing it is not a shoot doesn't mean you shouldn't treat it as a shoot. You have said _nothing_ that addresses that. Not even your, in my opinion, gross attempts to link wrestling to other genres of fiction is there anything about this. Are you incapable of discussing that point? Even if you watch wrestling to be entertained like it was a movie, why does that mean it has to be a bad one that doesn't make sense? Why does it need to be pantomime? Could you enjoy it if it were presented sincerely and without winking at the audience?

More so, what do you actually think is entertaining about a goof eating dinner in black trackies with purple tape zippers? Do you consider this entertainment?



PavelGaborik said:


> Why does it not matter? "MMA is fake anyone can say that" Yes, they can - they can also say the sun is black but that would also be false. Judges in MMA certainly have a tendency of favoring their cash cows in close fights. At the end of the day we're still getting a real fight where anything can happen at any given time. It's become clear at this point that you don't watch MMA and believe that all Pro Wrestling fans are literal morons because you would have to be a complete moron to not realize within several seconds that Professional Wrestling matches are not real. How many street fights have you seen growing up where guys slap their legs after every kick and do 450 splashes off the top rope? I haven't seen many. I can't imagine many people at the top of the sport (in MMA) willingly letting somebody rock their brains with a right hand and knock them unconscious or literally break their arms. "It doesn't matter if MMA is real or not for the sake of the argument" Oh, but it certainly does - It's a real fight at the end of the day. It's presented as a real fight and it delivers on the promise - at the end of the day you're getting a real fight. Unscripted violence where a right hand or an armbar can change the tide of a fight at any given moment. No matter how hard you try to go out of your way to promote the realism of Professional Wrestling at the end of the day it's blatantly obvious to anyone watching the two which is genuinely real and what is clearly fictional. They're always going to come up drastically short of competing with actual sports in regards to realism. That's not an opinion - that is a fact.


It doesn't matter, because like professional wrestling back in the day, I can just say it's rigged and people will either have to believe me or not. You seem to believe it is not. Cool. I'm saying that it is. "You know that shit's fake, don't you?" The dumbest thing MMA could do is say "Yeah, he's right" and then start doing a Happy, Happy Dance routine in the middle of the octagon. How are you not getting this?

Also, there are black spots on the sun.



PavelGaborik said:


> - You would be wise to stop presenting your opinions as fact - you have a bad habit of doing this. You not being particularly fond of something doesn't mean somebody else cannot enjoy it. I grew up in the attitude era/Ruthless aggression era where storylines were about as goofy and cheesy as one could imagine. Granted I was quite young at the time but that is what I've known Professional Wrestling to be my entire life. I fell in love with the storylines, the blood, violence and athleticism. I'm not tuning into Professional Wrestling hoping for it to fill a void that was never there - I've been aware since I was a very young child watching Wrestling in the early 2000's that what I was watching was clearly not real. I didn't watch it for it's "sports based presentation" then and I don't watch it for that now. I do like some elements of real life sports being implemented into the product to be certainly, but that's far from one of the first things I'm tuning in for when I turn on Dynamite, NXT, MLW the NWA or NJPW. I can't even bother to tune in to watch RAW or Smackdown anymore (especially since the pandemic started) so I can't really comment on those shows outside of one or two here and there. I understand you want Wrestling PRESENTED in a realistic manner - I'm saying at the end of the day the matches aren't going to live up to that presentation.


Wait a second -- didn't you just say "That's not an opinion - that is a fact" about your own opinion? Practice what you preach, Pavel. And to prove that what you said was an opinion and not a fact, wrestling still draws a lot better than MMA on everything but PPV. When they were both on cable, I'm pretty sure WWE was doing a lot better. I'll have to defer to validreasoning on that one. But the idea that the realism of MMA kills pro-wrestling? Nah, there's a major citation needed. Especially when wrestling can book itself more heated fights, book them to be better, come up with more gripping finishes and also have angles to kick things in hot directions. You're just imagining a more serious presentation of wrestling being a bunch of southerners screaming "It's real!" over and over again and people switching over to MMA because they think it actually is.

Would you stop wrestling if it were presented in a serious manner? There are plenty of people who would potentially come back. But would you stop if Brodie Lee were presented like a ruthless killer instead of someone who eats steak? _No one needs it think it is real._ I've never been under the impression that wrestling is real. I don't know anyone who has been, honestly. It's always the sports entertainment/PWG fans who relish in kayfabe being dead because it turns into some sort of elitism thing for them, where they get to think they're smarter than everyone else because they know it's not real. It's not about knowing it's not real, Pavel. It's about putting a fucking effort in to try and work people. Since you apparently love Star Wars and that movie with the Jedi recruitment drive so much, here's a way of thinking of it in fictional terms: it's about content applying the rules of its genre. It's about not breaking the fourth wall.



PavelGaborik said:


> There's no back peddling - I'm literally telling you that MMA sounds like it would fill the void with a lot of what your complaints seem to be about Professional Wrestling. If it's purely realism you're seeking, why not give a genuine combat sport an attempt? Again with the crocodile tears... Sigh


I don't want to watch MMA. I want to watch wrestling, like a bunch of other people. It also isn't "purely realism" I'm seeking. Why would you get that idea? You've either completely misunderstood everything or you're deliberately misrepresenting. I want pro-wrestling. I want heat, angles, feuds, promos, some good matches, some short matches -- I don't want realistic fights. I want sincerely presented pro-wrestling.



PavelGaborik said:


> Wrestling doesn't need to implement comedy, storytelling etc to attract viewers? Interesting because I remember both of those things being at the height of their prominence in the late 1990's and early 2000's when Professional Wrestling was on a major upswing and garnering massive ratings across the board in multiple promotions. The issue is you're under the impression that EVERYBODY is on the same page as you when it's become evident at this point that is not the case.


Featuring something and needing something are two different things. The Rock being funny works because he's the most charismatic man on the planet. The PWG brats sticking their thumbs up their ass isn't going to draw. It's not even funny. Which promotion actually does anything funny? I don't know what you mean by "storytelling." This is an obvious misuse of the word and I don't know what you actually mean. Stories are inherent in conflict. Every match has a story. You either don't know what a story is and you're using "storytelling" as a buzzword meaning "good thing," or you've slipped it in there on purpose so that other people will read "good thing."



PavelGaborik said:


> - For somebody accusing me of attempting to deflect away from the original conversation you sure do enjoy bringing your ignorance of the Star Wars Universe into the equation. To be blunt : The Sith don't have strict recruitment guidelines : They will recruit anyone or anything that they believe will garner them more power. We've seen them actively recruit multiple Jedi throughout their history. From a mass amount of Dark Jedi students in the Old Republic age all the way to the blatant on screen recruitment and attempted recruitment of Anakin, Rey, Ben Solo, and Luke. All were force sensitive Jedi/Students who were recruited or attempted to be recruited by the Dark Side. So yes, they do have quite a lengthy history of recruiting/attempting to recruit Jedi's/Students.


We're not talking Revan and the Mandalorian Wars here, we're talking the cinematic universe. I hardly consider four characters a lengthy history or the "literal" plot. I don't think you really know what the word "recruited" means. This might be considered semantic, but recruitment implies that there was some sort of formal structure to enlist individuals from a general populous into the Sith ranks, which just doesn't exist in the cinematic universe. Normally I don't bust even condescending asses on semantics, but we were discussing a fucking cult. If you can't see the difference between, say, how Scientology recruits people and Palpatine taking on an apprentice/trying to turn his biggest threat thematically, then I'm not sure I can help you. If you want to say that Palpatine wanted to "recruit" Luke, I can maybe cop you that flexible use of the language, but "tempt" or "replace Vader with" are probably better phrasings of that. If you had to write a synopsis or character bio for Luke, I'm pretty sure "recruit" would be a word you would edit out if it made it in. There are way more applicable ones in the English language.



PavelGaborik said:


> "Things like the Dark Order are why people are drawn away from Pro Wrestling because it's bad"
> 
> This is literally an opinion with no substance behind it. *Something that has become a common theme with each passing novel you write up.* If you're upset about something as silly as a dark dressing cult being named after shade you're going to be a very, very difficult man to please. There are a lot of things AEW has done wrong that I have gripes with (Marko Stunt, overbooking matches with jobbers so nobody looks weak, SCU winning the tag titles etc ) there are a long list of genuine complaints to be made out there that if corrected would drastically improve the product - this isn't one of them.


Hang on, can we just pause on this moment, please? The novels _I_ write up? If anyone needed evidence that you have a very different view of what is appropriate for yourself and what is appropriate for other people, this should be it. Wow. Irony, thy name is PavelGaborik.

And no, it's not just 'literally an opinion with no substance behind it." It's my opinion, sure. Whose opinion do you think I would echo? Yours? I'll take mine, thanks. But it's based absolutely on substance. It's based on the evident assertion that the more you make people work to suspend their disbelief, the less wrestling works. Have you ever heard of KISS? Keep it simple, stupid. The more complicated you make the work, the harder you make it for yourself. This is common sense. It's a good damn opinion to have. It's backed up by evidence. It's historically and demonstrably true. You dismissing it as an "opinion" you don't like is very cute, but also very transparently your avoiding dealing with it.

You keep throwing in that line about a "dark dressing" cult. I'm getting this vibe you are working overtime to try and plant the idea that they are named after their clothes (which would be stupid), or to attempt to base the name in exaggerated innocuousness. It's all to avoid the point that a group actively trying to recruit people, unlike the Sith, is going around calling themselves "The Dark Order," which doesn't sound inviting and sounds like a 14-year-old fantasy booker would make up in their bedroom. Oh, wait...



PavelGaborik said:


> You've explained that you enjoy discussing something that you've labeled a "waste of time" and bad. Sure sounds like you like the idea of engaging in debates with strangers on an internet forum.


Um, what is this in response to? I've never denied I like talking about wrestling on wrestling forums. That's why I'm on a wrestling forum discussing wrestling. Why are you on a wrestling forum discussing wrestling if you don't like it? Talk about wastes of time.



PavelGaborik said:


> Finally - Yes I would absolutely consider willingly "wasting my time" to be counter productive and quite frankly stupid as fuck./QUOTE]
> 
> Then don't waste your time. I don't consider myself as wasting mine. Unless you do want to try and tell me how to live my life and double-down on the whole condescending thing? If anything, I'm not concerned about you, since you seem to think that writing lots and talking about wrestling with people you don't know as a time-waster, which is...well, yikes.
> 
> ...


----------



## Cult03 (Oct 31, 2016)

The Wood said:


> Sigh, you won't stop smacking your face against my foot, will you?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wow, nailed it. This is basically a knock out blow based on being something I agree with


----------



## dan the marino (Oct 22, 2006)

I admit I half-watch the shows sometimes but I really don't see how Brodie Lee is supposed to be a caricature of Vince? Have people behind the scenes confirmed it or something? Like if that wasn't still a thing going around I would just think he's an abusive cult leader.

Brodie Lee is an awesome talent and personally I like the Dark Order but I get why people don't. It's out of place in a sense and would fit way better in something like Lucha Underground. They're just slightly too outlandish compared to everything else going on in AEW. I think it's alright they're still trying to find out what they're going for as a company and I do enjoy cheesy things like this but I get why others think otherwise. Brodie Lee is great though so if this doesn't work out I hope they figure out something that would for him. Personally I think he's been doing fine in his position but we'll see how Dark Order goes in the next few months, the group does seem to be walking a tight rope.


----------



## Aedubya (Jul 12, 2019)

Very good match last night


----------



## Lorromire (Jun 17, 2014)

The Wood said:


> Star Wars is not hard to understand. Where did recruiting play a role in the films? Actual recruiting? I can't even remember that being a plot for the Stormtroopers. In fact, at one point they were using clones to actively avoid the process. I don't think you understand this excruciatingly simple story as much as you think you do. *Can you highlight one point in the films where the Sith tried to recruit Jedi to their side?*


I'm pretty sure you're trolling on this point. However, just for arguments sake, I'll bite.
Episodes 3 and 6 throw that in your face as the pieces of the final plot. Episodes 2, 4 and 5 also show Palpatine manipulating Anakin/Luke into recruitment as part of the underlying story, to an extent Episode 1 does too, but not much. It's literally one of the bigger sub-plots in the original trilogy and the major plot in the prequel trilogy.

I'm sure it happens in Episodes 7, 8 and 9 too. I've blocked out 99% of those trash films from my mind.


----------



## Aedubya (Jul 12, 2019)

Hopefully he keeps the new ring gear too


----------



## Kalashnikov (Dec 30, 2010)

Lorromire said:


> I'm pretty sure you're trolling on this point. However, just for arguments sake, I'll bite.
> Episodes 3 and 6 throw that in your face as the pieces of the final plot. Episodes 2, 4 and 5 also show Palpatine manipulating Anakin/Luke into recruitment as part of the underlying story, to an extent Episode 1 does too, but not much. It's literally one of the bigger sub-plots in the original trilogy and the major plot in the prequel trilogy.
> 
> I'm sure it happens in Episodes 7, 8 and 9 too. I've blocked out 99% of those trash films from my mind.


I agree with everything you said here, but what the fuck? Talking about trash films and not putting episode 2 at the very top of that list is a crime against humanity.


----------



## Lorromire (Jun 17, 2014)

Kalashnikov said:


> I agree with everything you said here, but what the fuck? Talking about trash films and not putting episode 2 at the very top of that list is a crime against humanity.


I enjoyed 2. It had some meh moments, as do all of them imo, but the movie was good overall.


----------



## Kalashnikov (Dec 30, 2010)

Lorromire said:


> I enjoyed 2. It had some meh moments, as do all of them imo, but the movie was good overall.


Literally everything is abysmal about that film. The script (both the lines and the plot), the acting (besides Christopher Lee), the CGI (it's just absolutely disgusting), the characters... everything was dreadful. I know it's a matter of taste, but I honestly don't see a single saving grace in that dumpsterfire.


----------



## Lorromire (Jun 17, 2014)

Kalashnikov said:


> Literally everything is abysmal about that film. The script (both the lines and the plot), the acting (besides Christopher Lee), the CGI (it's just absolutely disgusting), the characters... everything was dreadful. I know it's a matter of taste, but I honestly don't see a single saving grace in that dumpsterfire.


It's easily the worst of the three, yes. However, it's still not bad.
A lot of people point out the "I don't like sand" line for instance and trash on it, when in context, it makes perfect sense and works. Anakin is this emotionally torn 16-year old who has no idea how to handle what is going on around him. He doesn't know how to speak to girls, let alone one he's in love with, and he's fighting the fact that he knows a relationship is wrong (jedi laws, etc). So he awkwardly goes on about how he hates sand, due to his home life and life in general as a metaphor. He likes being there on Naboo with Padme. Away from everything where he's happy.

I get that you shouldn't need to read so much into little things in a movie but Lucas does this shit a lot in Star Wars and it helps to understand the actual meaning behind things.


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

Lorromire said:


> I'm pretty sure you're trolling on this point. However, just for arguments sake, I'll bite.
> Episodes 3 and 6 throw that in your face as the pieces of the final plot. Episodes 2, 4 and 5 also show Palpatine manipulating Anakin/Luke into recruitment as part of the underlying story, to an extent Episode 1 does too, but not much. It's literally one of the bigger sub-plots in the original trilogy and the major plot in the prequel trilogy.
> 
> I'm sure it happens in Episodes 7, 8 and 9 too. I've blocked out 99% of those trash films from my mind.


They literally tried to hunt them to extinction, hahaha. Order 66 is explicitly the opposite of recruitment. I know the prequels are considered bad, but they happened.


----------



## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

Whoa guys. Spoilers.


----------



## Lorromire (Jun 17, 2014)

The Wood said:


> They literally tried to hunt them to extinction, hahaha. Order 66 is explicitly the opposite of recruitment. I know the prequels are considered bad, but they happened.


After recruiting the others that wanted to join.


----------



## Aedubya (Jul 12, 2019)

Hopefully he demolishes someone tonight


----------

