# AEW doesn't NEED CM Punk



## nWo4Lyfe420 (Apr 22, 2013)

He's 40 years old and the last time people saw him he got fucked up by a journalist. He's never been a proven draw either. He's very over with hardcore wrestling fans, I'm a fan of his work too, but he has not once proven he can draw casual fans and he's not a crossover star. He's a crossover failure.

He wouldn't even be one of the top 2 talkers in the company. MJF at 23 is already better than Punk has ever been, and Jericho is obviously better too. Then you also have Moxley who is more naturally charismatic than Punk and younger. He doesn't really bring anything new to the table for AEW. The roster is already full of guys with his physique.

With that being said he would be a good signing for AEW. He can talk and he's a big name by today's standards. He's not a bigger star than Jericho though and I see people acting like he would set the world on fire if he signs. Those people are in for a rude awakening. He's not a modern day Hogan or SCSA like some of you want to pretend he is.


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## obby (May 19, 2009)

> He wouldn't even be one of the top 2 talkers in the company. MJF at 23 is already better than Punk has ever been,


This comment should be a bannable offense


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## La Parka (Oct 28, 2008)

lmao MJF aint better than Punk, man


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## Qudhufo (Jun 25, 2019)

Watch out boi, theres gonna be alot of angry Punk fans coming at u


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## nWo4Lyfe420 (Apr 22, 2013)

obby said:


> This comment should be a bannable offense


Show me one promo Punk has ever cut that was as good or better than MJF's at DON. Just one.

Here's a hint: it doesn't exist.


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## AEWMoxley (May 26, 2019)

nWo4Lyfe420 said:


> He's 40 years old and the last time people saw him he got fucked up by a journalist. He's never been a proven draw either. He's very over with hardcore wrestling fans, I'm a fan of his work too, *but he has not once proven he can draw casual fans and he's not a crossover star.* He's a crossover failure.


Funny you should say this, because Cody besmirched himself and the company today by stating that he doesn't care about attracting casual fans. An absolutely embarrassing statement from an executive of the company. 

Anyways, while I agree with you that they don't need Punk, I disagree with you about his drawing power. He's not The Rock or Austin, or even Cena, in terms of drawing power, but he did outsell Cena in merchandise at one point. This was back when WWE had a much bigger fanbase than they do today. His first UFC fight did pretty good numbers, too.

But it doesn't matter anyway, because he's done with wrestling.


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## kingnoth1n (Nov 21, 2016)

I mean...the real fact of the matter is a lot of fans including myself seen him get Normandy'd by two absolute cans in the UFC. I could make a case that Cyborg and Nunes would starch his ass. Those starchings hurt a ton of his credibility to me, along with the Colt Cabana issue. Yeah I get wrestling is kayfabe, but seeing a pro wrestling star get completely emasculated takes away a lot of their shine. Im willing to bet some of the people on here that watch UFC would say the same exact thing.

and even if he did come back...it won't tip the scales like some people think it would. People really think he would be the tipping point, but in actuality even at his height (SoP 2011), he wasnt exactly popping huge ratings. Now he did pop a big number his first UFC outting, but it went down significantly in his 2nd one.

In all likelyhood he isn't coming back anyways though, and they definitely don't NEED him. What they NEED is to avoid 50/50 booking when possible, and to drop the sillyness in BTE when TNT rolls around.


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## Beatles123 (Jan 26, 2010)

It would depend how hes used. As a figurehead that'd be interesting.


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## Qudhufo (Jun 25, 2019)

AEWMoxley said:


> Funny you should say this, because *Cody besmirched himself and the company today by stating that he doesn't care about attracting casual fans. *An absolutely embarrassing statement from an executive of the company.


Lol I saw that shit on Twitter earlier. I could not stop laughing at that tbh. Cody is an idiot.


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## Sensei Utero (May 1, 2016)

I agree with the actual title of the post. I posted this comment in another thread which can be used here too.



Sensei Utero said:


> Said it once before, and I'll say it again: People need to *STOP* getting their hopes up, because they're just setting themselves up for disappointment. I'd love Punk to debut for them, and hell I hope I'm wrong if it ever occurred and would gladly take the 'I told you so' posts, but the signs and evidence points to it not happening, and I think people just need to fully accept that Punk is done.
> 
> Would it help AEW if he showed up? Of course it would. If it happens, it happens, and if (I should really say 'When') it doesn't, they'll carry on as normal and do what they've been doing, elevating new stars to showcase to both an existing and new audience, putting on a different product from the bore that is the 'E. Will honestly facepalm at the 'AEW is a failure because Punk didn't debut!' posts that will most likely show up after All Out, regardless of whether it's a great or bad show.


However, I disagree with parts of the post. Considering the fallout with WWE, the fact people STILL chant for him almost on a weekly basis (from when I last regularly watched), and a load more people know about him after the UFC crossover (despite the fact it didn't go the way he wanted it to), I say a lot of people would watch if a Punk show up ever did occur. Quite a lot of people returned after the whole Pipebomb promo back in 2011 until the 'E screwed that up. There'd certainly be a load of attention today. Hell, even some UK sports tabloid websites were picking up on the possibility.

I agree too that he is no Hogan or Austin, but it's unfair to compare with them two as this is a different era, there's been different backgrounds, etc. The only guy I'd really put there is Cena. By today's standards, Punk pretty much is a big deal.

MJF, I love him thus far, but whilst he's a great talker, he certainly still has a good way to go. Hopefully AEW builds around him, as he could certainly bring in a load of casuals, keep existing audience entertained, and be a top class heel within the main event scene.


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## nWo4Lyfe420 (Apr 22, 2013)

AEWMoxley said:


> Funny you should say this, because Cody besmirched himself and the company today by stating that he doesn't care about attracting casual fans. An absolutely embarrassing statement from an executive of the company.
> 
> Anyways, while I agree with you that they don't need Punk, I disagree with you about his drawing power. He's not The Rock or Austin, or even Cena, in terms of drawing power, but he did outsell Cena in merchandise at one point. This was back when WWE had a much bigger fanbase than they do today. *His first UFC fight did pretty good numbers, too.*
> 
> But it doesn't matter anyway, because he's done with wrestling.


Do you think those people still follow him after that? Lol.


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## kingnoth1n (Nov 21, 2016)

AEWMoxley said:


> Funny you should say this, because Cody besmirched himself and the company today by stating that he doesn't care about attracting casual fans. An absolutely embarrassing statement from an executive of the company.
> 
> Anyways, while I agree with you that they don't need Punk, I disagree with you about his drawing power. He's not The Rock or Austin, or even Cena, in terms of drawing power, but he did outsell Cena in merchandise at one point. This was back when WWE had a much bigger fanbase than they do today. His first UFC fight did pretty good numbers, too.
> 
> But it doesn't matter anyway, because he's done with wrestling.


For some reason he absolutely hates the Monday Night Wars, which is interesting because it is where a lot of people began their fandom. So he is pretty much spitting on peoples nostalgic memories of wrestling, alot of whom want AEW to succeed. It's bizarre behavior from a VP of a start up and doesn't scream "get in my corner and cheer us on guys."


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## Darkest Lariat (Jun 12, 2013)

:shockedpunk

Punk doesn't need AEW is more like it. Doesn't change the fact that Punk = eyes. That's why even Dana White put him on ppv TWICE. Tony isn't an idiot, he knows Punk is the move. And Punk's ego won't let him go out on those UFC fights or losing to Batista in the Rumble.

He'll be back for that sunset ride with AEW and two middle fingers in the air toward Stamford. He can't resist.


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## kingnoth1n (Nov 21, 2016)

nWo4Lyfe420 said:


> Show me one promo Punk has ever cut that was as good or better than MJF's at DON. Just one.
> 
> Here's a hint: it doesn't exist.


I equate MJF's ability to draw heat to Bubba Ray Dudley in ECW in the mid 90s. Which is an amazing compliment to any wrestler.


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## Beatles123 (Jan 26, 2010)

I don't think losing in UFC hurts him that bad. It takes a certain amount of guts to even try. At least the dude did what he wanted to do and went for it. However, he'll always be heckled by some for it.

In some respects if he comes back now after saying he doesn't need wrestling, he would seem a bit two-faced.


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## nWo4Lyfe420 (Apr 22, 2013)

Sensei Utero said:


> I agree with the actual title of the post. I posted this comment in another thread which can be used here too.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


People chant for him because the product is the worst it's ever been and because he's the only older guy they remember who's still young enough to return. They also have fond memories of the 'pipebomb.' Fact is returns are never as good as people envision them. Everyone wanted The Rock to return, and while his returns were fun it never felt the same as his first run did. Bork is another guy everyone jizzed themselves over when he returned and now most of them hate his guts.

People think Punk will come in and drop another 'pipebomb' and shake up the entire industry and that's not gonna happen. I bring up HH and SCSA because that's what many of his fans compare him to. They believe his pipebomb had the same effect as Austin stunning his boss or Hogan turning heel and we all know that's laughable.

He's a great talent and it would be fun to see him feud with MJF, Jericho, Moxley. But he's not the second coming.

Also the UFC crossover hurt him if anything. Getting alpha'd by tomato cans he was meant to beat is not a good look.


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## WILL V WORLD (Aug 1, 2019)

Horrible take


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## kingnoth1n (Nov 21, 2016)

Beatles123 said:


> I don't think losing in UFC hurts him that bad. It takes a certain amount of guts to even try. At least the dude did what he wanted to do and went for it. However, he'll always be heckled by some for it.
> 
> In some respects if he comes back now after saying he doesn't need wrestling, he would seem a bit two-faced.


The way he lost was terrible, and killed some of his aura to the Wrestling-MMA hybrid fanbase...believe me I really really wanted him to win. Then he got smashed inside a minute then put on an embarrassing performance vs an absolute scrub.

and yes, he railroaded a lot of wrestling fans on twitter a few months back, a lot of people have fickle memories but I remember it quite well.

A lot of things he has done in his time out has been detrimental to his wrestling stock, and he wasn't that strong of a draw to begin with.

Again, nWo is 100% here, AEW doesn't NEED Punk. They need to focus on avoiding bad booking decisions like 50/50 and drop the silly shit from BTE when they get to TNT.


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## WILL V WORLD (Aug 1, 2019)

GOAT


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## reyfan (May 23, 2011)

As much as it would be great to see him wrestle again, I agree AEW doesn't NEED him, if they do it means the 20+ people they have signed aren't worth watching if they are reliant on 1 person to succeed, they should focus on what they have and not turning into TNA bringing in a bunch of guys past their prime to go over their young upcoming talent.


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## nWo4Lyfe420 (Apr 22, 2013)

kingnoth1n said:


> I equate MJF's ability to draw heat to Bubba Ray Dudley in ECW in the mid 90s. Which is an amazing compliment to any wrestler.


This is a great comparison bro. The kid is a fucking heat magnet like so few wrestlers have ever been. He could stand still and smile and get more heat than anyone else. You can't teach what he has.


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## Black Metal (Apr 30, 2018)

AEW needs to focus on making new stars, not taking hasbeens, older guys extensively or a huge number of throwaways from WWE.


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## Rick Sanchez (Dec 30, 2012)

MJF is good but he's nowhere near as good as Punk. The comparison is just laughable.

I agree AEW doesn't need him, but he would be a great signing. 

And more than likely, he's not signing anyways so it really doesn't matter.


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## kingnoth1n (Nov 21, 2016)

nWo4Lyfe420 said:


> *People think Punk will come in and drop another 'pipebomb' and shake up the entire industry and that's not gonna happen. I bring up HH and SCSA because that's what many of his fans compare him to. They believe his pipebomb had the same effect as Austin stunning his boss or Hogan turning heel and we all know that's laughable.*
> 
> .


This is kind of important to point out, the diminishing return here is usually never as strong, unless the wrestler is completely transcendent like SCSA or Hogan. Yeah probably will pop a rating, but the sustainability won't be there compared to the Summer of Punk run.


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## Mox Girl (Sep 29, 2014)

TBH I agree. I am fucking tired of the constant "OMG is Punk coming back, is Punk coming to AEW?" talk, and him getting brought up constantly :lol People need to lay off it already. No wonder the guy gets annoyed, whenever he goes on Twitter, all he gets is a bunch of people badgering him.

Plus, I would be worried he'd be horribly out of practice having not wrestled in several years at this point.


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## nWo4Lyfe420 (Apr 22, 2013)

Rick Sanchez said:


> *MJF is good but he's nowhere near as good as Punk. The comparison is just laughable*.
> 
> I agree AEW doesn't need him, but he would be a great signing.
> 
> And more than likely, he's not signing anyways so it really doesn't matter.


Like I said to the other guy show me a Punk promo better than MJF at DON. Or hell, show me one better than this






Punk wishes he could draw as much heat as MJF. Even when he was a heel and feuding with Jeff Hardy (who was the most popular wrestler in the world at the time) he wasn't the heat magnet that MJF is. And that was with a preachy straight edge gimmick.

Punk wasn't actually that popular at all before the pipebomb.


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## kingnoth1n (Nov 21, 2016)

If he did come back, it would make Cody a huge hypocrite as well, because he would be focusing on the casual fan, instead of the group that brought him to the dance. Nothing like painting yourself into a corner this early.


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## Rick Sanchez (Dec 30, 2012)

He cut great promos all the time.

And his Pipebomb was better than MJF's DON promo. It was the most talked about promo for a long time, unlike the DON promo which has only gotten a little buzz.


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## nWo4Lyfe420 (Apr 22, 2013)

Rick Sanchez said:


> He cut great promos all the time.
> 
> And his Pipebomb was better than MJF's DON promo. It was the most talked about promo for a long time, unlike the DON promo which has only gotten a little buzz.


It was on a bigger stage back when millions more people were still watching wrestling. It wasn't a better promo. His insults are not as clever as MJF's, he doesn't command the same attention. People loved the pipebomb because he was telling the truth about the WWE. Plenty of guys could have cut the same promo and gotten over from it. It was a bulletproof way to make someone a star.


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## Schwartzxz (Jul 9, 2017)

AEWMoxley said:


> Cody besmirched himself and the company today by stating that he doesn't care about attracting casual fans.


I cant wait until people start turning against AEW. its gonna be fun.


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## nWo4Lyfe420 (Apr 22, 2013)

Mox Girl said:


> TBH I agree. I am fucking tired of the constant "OMG is Punk coming back, is Punk coming to AEW?" talk, and him getting brought up constantly :lol People need to lay off it already. No wonder the guy gets annoyed, whenever he goes on Twitter, all he gets is a bunch of people badgering him.
> 
> Plus, I would be worried he'd be horribly out of practice having not wrestled in several years at this point.


It's just getting annoying and pathetic now. I'm someone who would welcome his return too, but people need to cut out the hyperbolic statements about him being some kind of savior.

I don't blame him for talking shit to his fans on Twitter after seeing how weird and obsessive some of them are.


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## reyfan (May 23, 2011)

AEWMoxley said:


> Funny you should say this, because *Cody besmirched himself and the company today by stating that he doesn't care about attracting casual fans*. An absolutely embarrassing statement from an executive of the company.
> 
> Anyways, while I agree with you that they don't need Punk, I disagree with you about his drawing power. He's not The Rock or Austin, or even Cena, in terms of drawing power, but he did outsell Cena in merchandise at one point. This was back when WWE had a much bigger fanbase than they do today. His first UFC fight did pretty good numbers, too.
> 
> But it doesn't matter anyway, because he's done with wrestling.


Can you please elaborate?


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## EMGESP (Apr 3, 2016)

MJF is amazing, but Punk at his best is still in another league.


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## Buster Baxter (Mar 30, 2015)

MJF ain't better than Punk, I'm not crowning him off that DON segment, that's laughable. The pipebomb was superior and had people actually questioning if it was real. Punk drew plenty of heat when they turned him in 09 and especially when they formed the SES. He also has multiple segments eviscerating guys like Triple H and Cena on the mic.


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## reyfan (May 23, 2011)

EMGESP said:


> MJF is amazing, but Punk at his best *is still in another league*.


He is in UFC


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## AEWMoxley (May 26, 2019)

reyfan said:


> Can you please elaborate?


He literally said on a podcast today that he's not concerned with attracting casual fans to the product. I don't think I need to explain why that's a brain dead thing for an executive of a company to say.


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## EMGESP (Apr 3, 2016)

Black Metal said:


> AEW needs to focus on making new stars, not taking hasbeens, older guys extensively or a huge number of throwaways from WWE.


You need star power to create new stars. Jericho is going to be making a new Fozzy album and touring soon so someone else has to step up.


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## Soul Rex (Nov 26, 2017)

OP is clearly a Punk hater.


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## Buster Baxter (Mar 30, 2015)

Also, Idc about Cody saying he doesn't care about attracting casual fans. That's a dummy mission to begin with. Casual fans left a while ago, wrestling is viewed as TRASH by most people who use to watch it and is a niche product at this point. If AEW can continue to sell tickets, sell merch, and maintain their TV deal, they will be doing very well for themselves. They don't have to usurp WWE to be a success.


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## reyfan (May 23, 2011)

AEWMoxley said:


> He literally said on a podcast today that he's not concerned with attracting casual fans to the product. I don't think I need to explain why that's a brain dead thing for an executive of a company to say.


Thanks for sharing, I don't listen to his podcast or anything so wasn't sure if it was another twitter rant.


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## AEWMoxley (May 26, 2019)

Buster Baxter said:


> Also, Idc about Cody saying he doesn't care about attracting casual fans. That's a dummy mission to begin with. Casual fans left a while ago, wrestling is viewed as TRASH by most people who use to watch it and is a niche product at this point. If AEW can continue to sell tickets, sell merch, and maintain their TV deal, they will be doing very well for themselves. They don't have to usurp WWE to be a success.


2 million people watch RAW each week. There aren't 2 million hardcore wrestling fans in the US. There probably about 200K. The rest are casual fans. All of those millions of people who have tuned out of the product are casual fans as well, and those are the people who AEW should be targeting, especially the ones who have tuned out in recent years. No intelligent executive with any business sense would say what Cody said.


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## Beatles123 (Jan 26, 2010)

kingnoth1n said:


> The way he lost was terrible, and killed some of his aura to the Wrestling-MMA hybrid fanbase...believe me I really really wanted him to win. Then he got smashed inside a minute then put on an embarrassing performance vs an absolute scrub.
> 
> and yes, he railroaded a lot of wrestling fans on twitter a few months back, a lot of people have fickle memories but I remember it quite well.
> 
> ...


I think it depends on how we define "Need" - He'd get people interested in AEW initially, but do you have anything he would actually be of use doing? I dunno. Being champion would be counter intuitive, since the "Jaded vet" role is Chris's ATM. If he were to come back you'd think it's have to be in a managerial capacity, but then....would viewers who want to see Punk want to watch him return just to do...that?

It's like he's in this weird position where he's too important to NOT wrestle if he's there, and yet not big time enough to get a push, so there's really not a right way to utilize him other than as a spokesman or something.

That said, have him come out at All Out and cut a promo putting over AEW as the future and leave. Then have him make a few one-time appearances now and then and you get the best of both worlds I think.


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## Fearless Viper (Apr 6, 2019)

They don't need him but Punk can make them even bigger. That can't be deny at all.


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## Buster Baxter (Mar 30, 2015)

AEWMoxley said:


> 2 million people watch RAW each week. There aren't 2 million hardcore wrestling fans in the US. There probably about 200K. The rest are casual fans. All of those millions of people who have tuned out of the product are casual fans as well, and those are the people who AEW should be targeting, especially the ones who have tuned out in recent years. No intelligent executive with any business sense would say what Cody said.


Majority of the people still watching will likely watch WWE no matter what. A lot of the people who tuned out simply do not care about wrestling on any level anymore. AEW ain't getting them back into wrestling, that's a losing battle. If any casual fans do come back, they are likely going to watch WWE because of brand recognition, they are literally synonymous with this form of entertainment.

Like I said if AEW can continue to sell tickets, move merch, and maintain their TV deal, they will have done well for themselves. You make a good point though, it does look bad for Cody to say he doesn't care about a particular demographic, personally I'm not bothered by it.


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## Black Metal (Apr 30, 2018)

EMGESP said:


> You need star power to create new stars. Jericho is going to be making a new Fozzy album and touring soon so someone else has to step up.


Okay that's one guy. His main objective is being the first champion and more than likely losing to Hangman Page putting him over. It works.

After that what else?


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## nWo4Lyfe420 (Apr 22, 2013)

EMGESP said:


> *You need star power to create new stars*. Jericho is going to be making a new Fozzy album and touring soon so someone else has to step up.


This is wrong. Getting a rub from an established star is overrated. Has it worked before? Sure. But it's rarely the reason someone becomes a star. Talent and smart booking are far more important.

You can put a guy like Hangman over Hogan, Austin and Rock on the same night and people still wouldn't know who he is because he's an ordinary guy with no charisma.


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## kingnoth1n (Nov 21, 2016)

nWo4Lyfe420 said:


> *This is wrong. Getting a rub from an established star is overrated. Has it worked before? Sure. But it's rarely the reason someone becomes a star. Talent and smart booking are far more important.*


Case in point:


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## deadcool (May 4, 2006)

Fearless Viper said:


> They don't need him but Punk can make them even bigger. That can't be deny at all.


This.

He's very popular especially in Illinois. He comes in with a lot of ME level matches built in; Punk vs Omega or Punk vs Jericho or Punk vs Moxley. He is a draw. He also has a creative mind much more capable and productive than Triple HGH or other wrestlers part of WWE creative. He can definitely benefit the company in multiple ways.

I am a big fan of CM Punk. I honestly am of the belief that Punk is not coming to AEW, and it's just shady and unprofessional of Tony Khan, Cody and certain other AEW personnel to indirectly push the narrative or insinuate that Punk is coming to AEW.

With that said, AEW is doing a good job with their booking especially of their younger guys; they have a strong crop of fresh talent ready to explode and their vets are pretty good too. Even if Punk doesn't show up, not really a big deal as they will still put on a much better product than current WWE.


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## RapShepard (Jun 20, 2014)

Beatles123 said:


> I think it depends on how we define "Need" - He'd get people interested in AEW initially, but do you have anything he would actually be of use doing? I dunno. Being champion would be counter intuitive, since the "Jaded vet" role is Chris's ATM. If he were to come back you'd think it's have to be in a managerial capacity, but then....would viewers who want to see Punk want to watch him return just to do...that?
> 
> It's like he's in this weird position where he's too important to NOT wrestle if he's there, and yet not big time enough to get a push, so there's really not a right way to utilize him other than as a spokesman or something.
> 
> That said, have him come out at All Out and cut a promo putting over AEW as the future and leave. Then have him make a few one-time appearances now and then and you get the best of both worlds I think.


If they're getting him, him being a a manager or mascot is a misuse of his value. You get him for 6 months to a year and pick 1 or 2 stars you want him to make. Say have him and Omega go at it, then have MJF or another heel with legs retire him. Doesn't need to be in the title picture, but if somebody pays to watch a Punk match, they aren't skipping the main event coming after the Punk match.


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## shandcraig (Mar 23, 2008)

Punk had one cool angle going out if wwe during the time the product was trash and he was the only one rebelling against it. Hes a one trick pony. That being said i like the guy.


People like mjf will have a long standing career


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## Prosper (Mar 25, 2015)

I would put CM Punk over MJF on the mic. But that's just on personal preference. MJF plays a great asshole but CM Punk is more convincing and comes off as more natural to me. That calm, cool, and collected vibe he had made what he said come off better. His promos with Cena, Vince, HHH, and the Pipe Bomb are all great examples. Also his promos with Heyman when he was feuding with Lesnar. 

Not to take anything away from MJF though, the guy is brilliant.


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## RelivingTheShadow (Apr 25, 2013)

The MJF dickriding is actually getting out of hand, he's really good don't get me wrong, and his ceiling is incredibly high, but jesus fuck you guys are blowing it out of proportion like crazy.


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## 304418 (Jul 2, 2014)

No, AEW does not need Punk. It would just be nice to have him or at least make an appearance, especially considering he still has a large fanbase.

But tbf, AEW doesn’t need a partnership with NJPW either, just need a few guys to show up every now and then. But that doesn’t stop fans from wishing though either.


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## Hangman (Feb 3, 2017)

The only guys AEW need is Moxley and Hangman. Build the company around them.


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## NXT Only (Apr 3, 2016)

Qudhufo said:


> Lol I saw that shit on Twitter earlier. I could not stop laughing at that tbh. Cody is an idiot.


I mean casuals only push the metrics but the purists, the hardcore fans keep the company alive. They’re the ones who help you sell out in 4 minutes. The ones who go bat shit crazy in the crowd during matches. 

Casuals come and go, you can’t cater to them or try to please them.


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## roadkill_ (Jan 28, 2010)

obby said:


> This comment should be a bannable offense


I don't know what you were listening to, but CM Punk's excruciating 12 minute moanalogues seemed to have been liked by no-one but a bunch of smark neckbeards on the internet.

The guy was shoot whining, a fucking petulant child who was as arrogant as he was bereft of talent or charisma.

MJF is already demonstrating five times the crowd psychology.


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## Geeee (Aug 9, 2010)

kingnoth1n said:


> If he did come back, it would make Cody a huge hypocrite as well, because he would be focusing on the casual fan, instead of the group that brought him to the dance. Nothing like painting yourself into a corner this early.


? Punk is like the Hulk Hogan of AEW's demographic and casual fans have no idea who he is because they stopped watching wrestling in 2002.


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## kingnoth1n (Nov 21, 2016)

Geeee said:


> ? Punk is like the Hulk Hogan of AEW's demographic and casual fans have no idea who he is because they stopped watching wrestling in 2002.


Thats a wild generalization on all fronts , they didn't all drop off the face of the Earth. Some people check back in occasionally. People that have checked in anytime around 2008 have some idea who he is; hence casuals.

and you simply can't put those two in the same sentence, it deadens the credibility in your post.


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## Death Rider (May 18, 2011)

The Inbred Goatman said:


> The MJF dickriding is actually getting out of hand, he's really good don't get me wrong, and his ceiling is incredibly high, but jesus fuck you guys are blowing it out of proportion like crazy.


This. I like MJF and knew of him before a lot of these dickriders but fuck me the dickriding is annoying as fuck. Claiming he is better then Punk on the microphone :heston


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## ReekOfAwesomenesss (Apr 6, 2012)

Lol at that dumb MJF>Punk remark.


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## looper007 (Dec 20, 2014)

I think Punk in AEW would be a major boost for them. He probably be a game changer for them and get more eyes on them. If he doesn't sign with them I don't think it's the end of the world, I wish some wouldn't get their hopes up so high about him turning up at All Out. I never got the feeling he would anyway.


----------



## nWo4Lyfe420 (Apr 22, 2013)

Death Rider said:


> This. I like MJF and knew of him before a lot of these dickriders but fuck me the dickriding is annoying as fuck. Claiming he is better then Punk on the microphone :heston


Claiming he's not better than Punk on the mic :maury

MJF can end careers and make fans want to kill him just by being himself. No fan ever threw a cup of piss at Punk. Punk has never worked a crowd into a frenzy like MJF has.

Punk had the most surefire heat character since Right to Censor at one point with SES. They gave him his own stable. They let him preach to the fans that his way of life was better than theirs and let him rag on a beloved junkie and the guy still got NO REACTIONS from it. He needed the pipebomb just to get over with the crowds because winning multiple world titles before it didn't do the trick. People love to forget that nobody gave two shits about Punk as a heel.

Anybody can go out and rag on Vince, HHH and Cena and get cheered. His act got stale and his never ending title reign did nothing to boost business up. Nobody here can point out a single memorable promo he ever cut aside from the pipebomb.

All Punk really is is a smark with a platform.


----------



## Geeee (Aug 9, 2010)

kingnoth1n said:


> Thats a wild generalization on all fronts , they didn't all drop off the face of the Earth. Some people check back in occasionally. People that have checked in anytime around 2008 have some idea who he is; hence casuals.
> 
> and you simply can't put those two in the same sentence, it deadens the credibility in your post.


What I mean is CM Punk is probably the biggest name in the audience that AEW is looking to attract. His character literally pandered to people who watch WWE and don't like the product.

I guess the only other candidate would be Daniel Bryan. Either way, Punk is way bigger with wrestling nerds than he is with casuals.


----------



## nWo4Lyfe420 (Apr 22, 2013)

The Inbred Goatman said:


> The MJF dickriding is actually getting out of hand, he's really good don't get me wrong, and his ceiling is incredibly high, but jesus fuck you guys are blowing it out of proportion like crazy.


Shame on some of us for wanting to see a 23 year old with the best mic skills since Dwayne Johnson get pushed. We should all be insufferable Punk fans on our knees begging for him to come in and "save" AEW instead.










:bow


----------



## Sensei Utero (May 1, 2016)

nWo4Lyfe420 said:


> People chant for him because the product is the worst it's ever been and because he's the only older guy they remember who's still young enough to return. They also have fond memories of the 'pipebomb.' Fact is returns are never as good as people envision them. Everyone wanted The Rock to return, and while his returns were fun it never felt the same as his first run did. Bork is another guy everyone jizzed themselves over when he returned and now most of them hate his guts.
> 
> People think Punk will come in and drop another 'pipebomb' and shake up the entire industry and that's not gonna happen. I bring up HH and SCSA because that's what many of his fans compare him to. They believe his pipebomb had the same effect as Austin stunning his boss or Hogan turning heel and we all know that's laughable.
> 
> ...


I'd actually agree with a good part of that post. Whether or not he'd drop any more 'Pipebomb' promos would be questionable (intriguing as well) as it'd certainly bring more attention to both him and the company as he'd basically be speaking the truth on the 'E and the state of that company at the moment, so I guess we'd never know until it actually happened.

However, whilst I agree he's no Hulk Hogan or Stone Cold (as I stated in my first post), he'd definitely bring a large legion of fans. Being announced for Starrcast got a lot of people into a frenzy (to the point there's a whole load of Punk threads in here), and anywhere I see All Out being mentioned, Punk is the first topic that pretty much gets talked about. It's no wonder Cody and co. have tried to dismiss the whole thing, but of course this is 2019, people want it, and they'll convince themselves they're being worked. Hell, as I said before too, even a load of UK tabloid sports websites which barely report on wrestling picked up on it.

I have to disagree on the MMA run hurting him *completely*. Whilst he lost both times and it didn't go how he probably wanted it to, it certainly opened doors for him, and a lot more people know about him now. Hell, even my MUM who hates sports asked me about CM Punk after his run there. If anything, Punk stating he's never coming back to wrestling will actually help him loads if he ever did, as it's got folk talking and such ever since he left the business.


----------



## Soul Rex (Nov 26, 2017)

nWo4Lyfe420 said:


> Claiming he's not better than Punk on the mic :maury
> 
> MJF can end careers and make fans want to kill him just by being himself. No fan ever threw a cup of piss at Punk. Punk has never worked a crowd into a frenzy like MJF has.
> 
> ...


Are you being sarcastic or trying to troll it up? Or you just didn't watch heel Cm Punk at his peak.

SES Cm Punk was argurably the most over heel of the PG era, go watch smackdown around 2009 to 2010, crowd literally wanted to kill him, Jeff Hardy fans wanted to kill him, I recommend you to watch his segment with Mysterio and his family, Punk was the definition of evil and heat.

MJF has a long ass way to be even worth to be compared with Cm Punk.


----------



## Beatles123 (Jan 26, 2010)

kingnoth1n said:


> Case in point:


In fairness, most of WWE's rubs are usually executed wrong.

When we I of correctly done Rubs, Andre putting Hogan over when he first won is good. Sandman caning Dreamer, Cactus training Whipwreck and Spanky saving ROH after months of being shat on by Punk and never given a fair shot are great examples. They were each given character development and put in a better career situation for having worked with them. It can work when it feels natural. Roman's didn't.


----------



## nWo4Lyfe420 (Apr 22, 2013)

Soul Rex said:


> Are you being sarcastic or trying to troll it up? Or you just didn't watch heel Cm Punk at his peak.
> 
> SES Cm Punk was argurably *the most over heel of the PG era*, go watch smackdown around 2009 to 2010, crowd literally wanted to kill him, Jeff Hardy fans wanted to kill him, I recommend you to watch his segment with Mysterio and his family, Punk was the definition of evil and heat.
> 
> MJF has a long ass way to be even worth to be compared with Cm Punk.


No he wasn't. Orton was. I watched plenty of that era and the crowds used to take a nap when Punk came out with Gallows and the big tit chick. He would ramble on and on about nothing and get on his knees and pretend to play god and the fans didn't care.

They only reacted to him when he interacted WITH Jeff Hardy. He couldn't draw reactions on his own. We can even go back a few years before that and find other heels who drew far more heat than Punk ever did like HHH, Edge and JBL.

You guys are revising history because he made you wet by saying how you feel about the product and giving you a "voice." Someone else in this thread brought up how some fans were question whether or not the pipebomb was real. That just shows how naive some of his fans are if they actually believed a WWE promo was real. Some of you don't think rationally about him.


----------



## BlackieDevil (Oct 11, 2016)

kingnoth1n said:


> I mean...the real fact of the matter is a lot of fans including myself seen him get Normandy'd by two absolute cans in the UFC. I could make a case that Cyborg and Nunes would starch his ass. Those starchings hurt a ton of his credibility to me, along with the Colt Cabana issue. Yeah I get wrestling is kayfabe, but seeing a pro wrestling star get completely emasculated takes away a lot of their shine. *Im willing to bet some of the people on here that watch UFC would say the same exact thing.*


Me in a nutshell. He lost everything when he got his ass whooped in the UFC. Talked a big game and got choked out in the 1st round.


----------



## Beatles123 (Jan 26, 2010)

I think we need to separate MJF and Punk from the conversation here. One shouldn't tare down MJF to build Punk up or vice-versa.


----------



## nWo4Lyfe420 (Apr 22, 2013)

Sensei Utero said:


> I'd actually agree with a good part of that post. Whether or not he'd drop any more 'Pipebomb' promos would be questionable (intriguing as well) as it'd certainly bring more attention to both him and the company as he'd basically be speaking the truth on the 'E and the state of that company at the moment, so I guess we'd never know until it actually happened.
> 
> However, whilst I agree he's no Hulk Hogan or Stone Cold (as I stated in my first post), he'd definitely bring a large legion of fans. Being announced for Starrcast got a lot of people into a frenzy (to the point there's a whole load of Punk threads in here), and anywhere I see All Out being mentioned, Punk is the first topic that pretty much gets talked about. It's no wonder Cody and co. have tried to dismiss the whole thing, but of course this is 2019, people want it, and they'll convince themselves they're being worked. Hell, as I said before too, even a load of UK tabloid sports websites which barely report on wrestling picked up on it.
> 
> I have to disagree on the MMA run hurting him *completely*. Whilst he lost both times and it didn't go how he probably wanted it to, it certainly opened doors for him, and a lot more people know about him now. Hell, even my MUM who hates sports asked me about CM Punk after his run there. If anything, Punk stating he's never coming back to wrestling will actually help him loads if he ever did, as it's got folk talking and such ever since he left the business.


No doubt he has his fans and would be a big signing for them. He has a hardcore following, not a casual one. Similar to Bryan. He may increase a PPV by a few thousand buys. He's not a game changer though. Do you think he would draw more fans than Jericho already has for AEW? I just don't see it because there's no evidence to support it.

What I'll say about the MMA thing is I don't believe it hurt him within his own fanbase. Everyone knows wrestling is fake. What it didn't do though was grow his fanbase because anyone tuning in to his fights just to see what a wrestler can do in a real sport wasn't gonna leave impressed by him getting dicked on by a couple of nobodies.


----------



## Buster Baxter (Mar 30, 2015)

MJF has the best mic skills since The Rock?

:maury

I enjoy reading your post Nwo, but come on man lmfao


----------



## Beatles123 (Jan 26, 2010)

nWo4Lyfe420 said:


> No doubt he has his fans and would be a big signing for them. He has a hardcore following, not a casual one. Similar to Bryan. He may increase a PPV by a few thousand buys. He's not a game changer though. Do you think he would draw more fans than Jericho already has for AEW? I just don't see it because there's no evidence to support it.
> 
> What I'll say about the MMA thing is I don't believe it hurt him within his own fanbase. Everyone knows wrestling is fake. What it didn't do though was grow his fanbase because anyone tuning in to his fights just to see what a wrestler can do in a real sport wasn't gonna leave impressed by him getting dicked on by a couple of nobodies.


Honestly, I don't think he trained properly at all for his MMA debut. Shoulda started smaller and worked his way up in stead of heading straight to UFC. I don't doubt he could have learned to do it had he took his time and was smarter about it.


----------



## nWo4Lyfe420 (Apr 22, 2013)

Everyone who never saw this promo needs to watch it. Truth bombs from Big Sexy






He also said later on in an interview that he went off script with those lines because he couldn't just stand there and be made to look like a bitch. You'll notice how Punk was at a loss for words at the end because he couldn't refute facts.


----------



## Lockard The GOAT (May 30, 2007)

He doesn't need to be Hogan or Austin in terms of impact - His return would still be the biggest thing wrestling's seen in YEARS. And for AEW it would be a blessing in terms of mainstream attention and star power.


----------



## Wridacule (Aug 23, 2018)

You guys are classic heels, I'll give you that. Always a sliver of truth amidst the absurdity.. AEW doesn't need punk. That is indeed true. 

I've spent years being annoyed by punk fans so I definitely appreciate the irony in feeling compelled to come to his defense. There seems to be a method to your madness..(am I giving too much credit??) you guys are unifying a majority of the community under the banner of logic and reason. Intentional or not, thank you. You're bringing people together

Ot: it's way too early to say mjf is better than punk. Some examples of fantastic punk promos. 

The promo where he demanded ice cream bars from vince.

The promo comparing cena to the Yankees

Damn near every promo from the straight edge society run. That is a very underrated period in punk's career. Fantastic heel work throughout. No doubt he could've made at least one of his stable members if given the chance. 

The night he spent on commentary with hhh's blazer on.

The diet coke demands made on commentary...


Tldr? Punk's body of work is just way too big. You guys are doing mjf a big disservice by making these comparisons so early. The only thing you're going to do is make people scoff and judge him too harshly. I mean unless that's the plan. You want him all to yourselves or something??


----------



## DMD Mofomagic (Jun 9, 2017)

nWo4Lyfe420 said:


> No doubt he has his fans and would be a big signing for them. He has a hardcore following, not a casual one. Similar to Bryan. He may increase a PPV by a few thousand buys. He's not a game changer though. Do you think he would draw more fans than Jericho already has for AEW? I just don't see it because there's no evidence to support it.
> 
> What I'll say about the MMA thing is I don't believe it hurt him within his own fanbase. Everyone knows wrestling is fake. What it didn't do though was grow his fanbase because anyone tuning in to his fights just to see what a wrestler can do in a real sport wasn't gonna leave impressed by him getting dicked on by a couple of nobodies.


I am going to sound all over the place on this reply, so bear with me.

Punk's mic skills are better than MJF's... Punk did a really good job of getting his opponent over, and advancing stories. I have been watching MJF for close to 2 years now (He was TV champ in a local indy) and while the kid has potential, and is off the charts great, Punk's mic skills are better, at least for today.

Jon Moxley used to be a better promo than Sami Callahan, and that is no longer the case, so it can change.

That being said, you are absolutely right in this post. 

Punk's fans make excuses for Punk, and then get angry that the truth is in front of them...Punk got his ass kicked, and is a joke to the MMA community.

People who don't believe me should watch this:






and this:






Joe Rogan is the most recognizable and respected color guy in the business today. people in the MMA demographic respect and listen to everything he says because he is right.

He basically says Punk has no business being in a cage, and should go back to the fake shit. UFC fans don't want to see Punk wrestle, they don't want to see Punk period. 

Also, I know you aren't saying it, but can everyone please stop pretending that the pipe bomb led to some great business and that the wrestling world was on fire for CM Punk? That isn't close to being true, and i personally have rebuked that with cold hard facts numerous times. 

people will make some excuse for the guy who they think got treated like shit while having the longest title reign of the last 30 years though.

Disclaimer :I like Punk a lot, and think he would be a great pick up, but we need to stop acting that he will do anything groundbreaking being there.



Beatles123 said:


> Honestly, I don't think he trained properly at all for his MMA debut. Shoulda started smaller and worked his way up in stead of heading straight to UFC. I don't doubt he could have learned to do it had he took his time and was smarter about it.


Punk trained for close to 2 years, and had some of the best coaching in the sport.

He just isn't cut out for MMA, just like Michael Jordan was shitty at baseball, some people have their strengths, some have weaknesses


----------



## drougfree (Aug 9, 2016)

i throught you liked wrestlers with mic skills,charisma and personality , aew desperately needs wrestler with those qualities


----------



## Reggie Dunlop (Nov 2, 2015)

He’d be a great hand.


----------



## reyfan (May 23, 2011)

Reggie Dunlop said:


> He’d be a great hand.


Maybe he could accompany Cody to the ring at the PPV.


----------



## RapShepard (Jun 20, 2014)

NXT Only said:


> I mean casuals only push the metrics but the purists, the hardcore fans keep the company alive. They’re the ones who help you sell out in 4 minutes. The ones who go bat shit crazy in the crowd during matches.
> 
> 
> 
> Casuals come and go, you can’t cater to them or try to please them.


But the thing is TNT didn't give them a slot for them to just bring in their core Elite fans a and a few 10k more die hard wrestling fans. If 6 months to a year from now they're still only pulling in die hard wrestling fans they run the risk of TNT saying we're done with you. They absolutely need to appeal to casual fans. If appealing to hardcore fans was enough ROH would've been blew the fuck up over the last 15 years.


----------



## AEWMoxley (May 26, 2019)

Ultron said:


> The only guys AEW need is Moxley and Hangman. Build the company around them.


Hangman sucks, though.



RapShepard said:


> But the thing is TNT didn't give them a slot for them to just bring in their core Elite fans a and a few 10k more die hard wrestling fans. If 6 months to a year from now they're still only pulling in die hard wrestling fans they run the risk of TNT saying we're done with you. They absolutely need to appeal to casual fans. If appealing to hardcore fans was enough ROH would've been blew the fuck up over the last 15 years.


Mind boggling how people aren't grasping this and how they're defending Cody's comments.


----------



## validreasoning (Jul 4, 2012)

shandcraig said:


> Punk had one cool angle going out if wwe during the time the product was trash and he was the only one rebelling against it. Hes a one trick pony. That being said i like the guy.
> 
> People like mjf will have a long standing career


He certainly isn't one trick pony because by far his best work was as a heel even though he did get most headlines as a baby rebelling against Vince and Cena.

As a heel he had actual legit heat. I remember fans wanted to kill him after he interrupted Jerry Lawler's big comeback after heart attack or rubbed Paul bearers supposed ashes on himself. They wanted him banned from WWE after he hit that fan live on tv..it was legit heat that the most hardcore of online fans had for a performer.

I dunno if Punk is right guy for AEW but on the other hand I dunno if MJF will have longevity either. The wrestling audience has seen lots of cocky heels on the mic last decade that they have grown numb to that type of character from Mr Kennedy to Enzo to Miz to EC3 to Eli Drake.

Regardless right now there is light years difference in name recognition between Punk and MJF which is key to attracting tv audiences.


----------



## Beatles123 (Jan 26, 2010)

DMD Mofomagic said:


> Punk trained for close to 2 years, and had some of the best coaching in the sport.
> 
> He just isn't cut out for MMA, just like Michael Jordan was shitty at baseball, some people have their strengths, some have weaknesses


Yes, but he was also trying to get to pro-level overnight basically, and I'm a big believer that you can't just cram at something and be good at it right away. You need to learn enough so that you can grow into it naturally. Some can pick it up and do that, but others need to crawl before they walk 

(AKA that think I can't do. :mj2 )



AEWMoxley said:


> Hangman sucks, though.
> 
> 
> 
> Mind boggling how people aren't grasping this and how they're defending Cody's comments.


He doesn't "Suck". Not by a mile. He just needs more time and needn't be champion right now. As foe Cody, well that's why we all have different points of view.


----------



## AEWMoxley (May 26, 2019)

Beatles123 said:


> He doesn't "Suck". Not by a mile. He just needs more time and needn't be champion right now. As foe Cody, well that's why we all have different points of view.


My definition of a wrestler who "sucks" is someone who is not main event material. I only care about you if you can show me that you are talented enough to be one of the guys in a promotion. Hangman can't. I've seen all I need to from him. He doesn't have the charisma to be a main eventer, therefore I have no interest in seeing him anywhere other than the midcard.


----------



## Beatles123 (Jan 26, 2010)

AEWMoxley said:


> My definition of a wrestler who "sucks" is someone who is not main event material. I only care about you if you can show me that you are talented enough to be one of the guys in a promotion. Hangman can't. I've seen all I need to from him. He doesn't have the charisma to be a main eventer, therefore I have no interest in seeing him anywhere other than the midcard.


Thats a bit of a hap-hazzard way of looking at it, I think.


----------



## Laughable Chimp (Sep 1, 2016)

nWo4Lyfe420 said:


> MJF can end careers and make fans want to kill him just by being himself. No fan ever threw a cup of piss at Punk. Punk has never worked a crowd into a frenzy like MJF has.


Since fucking when? Literally all you hear online is about how great MJF is, no one actually fucking hates him. The man is one of those heels that's just fun to boo because he's good at his job but being fun to boo and actually being hated are two very very different things. The guy who threw a cup of piss at MJF if it happened was just some fucking loony.


----------



## RapShepard (Jun 20, 2014)

AEWMoxley said:


> Hangman sucks, though.
> 
> 
> 
> Mind boggling how people aren't grasping this and how they're defending Cody's comments.


I think we're seeing the wrestling version of not wanting to see your favorite underground band go mainstream, despite the fact they signed with a major label. Like even Cody deep down has to know that eventually AEW is going to have to appease TNT and do some things strictly because TNT thinks it'll bring in more fans.


----------



## Hephaesteus (Aug 20, 2018)

Yea Cody shouldn't be catering to casual fans, that's common sense.


And AEW would welcome CM Punk with open arms that's also common sense, all that other stuff you spouting is fanboy stuff.


----------



## DMD Mofomagic (Jun 9, 2017)

Beatles123 said:


> Yes, but he was also trying to get to pro-level overnight basically, and I'm a big believer that you can't just cram at something and be good at it right away. You need to learn enough so that you can grow into it naturally. Some can pick it up and do that, but others need to crawl before they walk
> 
> (AKA that think I can't do. :mj2 )


I don't know about others. But I can tell you he can't

UFC has him in a commentator's role right now, and he still trains... He may even have found a niche there with those guys


----------



## Casual Fan #52 (Dec 23, 2010)

Punk is more nostalgia than substance at this point. He would get HUGE initial pop, and then quickly be turned on by the fans. If AEW signs him, it should be for a short term contract only, and maybe even just a one off.


----------



## CRCC (Sep 25, 2017)

Yes, AEW does not need Punk. But they would certainly be better off with him on the roster.

He's a great wrestler, you don't pass up the opportunity of signing a talent like him.


----------



## Soul Rex (Nov 26, 2017)

nWo4Lyfe420 said:


> No he wasn't. Orton was. I watched plenty of that era and the crowds used to take a nap when Punk came out with Gallows and the big tit chick. He would ramble on and on about nothing and get on his knees and pretend to play god and the fans didn't care.
> 
> They only reacted to him when he interacted WITH Jeff Hardy. He couldn't draw reactions on his own. We can even go back a few years before that and find other heels who drew far more heat than Punk ever did like HHH, Edge and JBL.
> 
> You guys are revising history because he made you wet by saying how you feel about the product and giving you a "voice." Someone else in this thread brought up how some fans were question whether or not the pipebomb was real. That just shows how naive some of his fans are if they actually believed a WWE promo was real. Some of you don't think rationally about him.


Again, I recomend you to watch SES Punk again and clean your eyes and ears, there is never point in arguing with people that denies tangible facts.

You can't deny Punk was a master heel who made the crowd rabid if you really watched him.


----------



## lesenfanteribles (Nov 23, 2004)

In the long run, I don't think they need CM Punk. If only for a short-term or maybe even a one-time appearance, maybe that would do a lot for AEW. While CM Punk isn't anywhere near Hogan, Rock, Austin, he still has some value to his name which can really help any wrestling organization. His age certainly isn't gonna help but if he does wrestle again, he'll have to adjust to a different style. Calling out the obvious will be his MMA experience which could be a negative topic but then again there's a wrestler named Yuji Nagata who has a similar record(correct me if I'm wrong) but of course Yuji Nagata did it earlier in his career and not when he's older unlike CM Punk who did it somewhat very late in his career. At the end of the day, until I actually see him again in a wrestling ring, all these rumors as to if he'd ever appear again would be taken with a grain of salt.


----------



## Bryan Jericho (Sep 8, 2014)

I dont see Punk coming in, but if he did come in Him and Jericho would be the 2 biggest stars AEW has.


----------



## Beatles123 (Jan 26, 2010)

May as well just flat out say that I don't know what it is Punk can do long term aside from a brief feud here or there, so its provably not aa big deal if he doesnt show up.


----------



## The XL 2 (Sep 13, 2016)

I dunno if MJF is better than Punk yet, but 23 year old MJF was a lot better than 23 year old Punk. The fact that he's even being compared to Punk at 23 years old shows how good the kid is, his upside is limitless. Regardless though, Punk would be a huge addition. The buzz he'd bring to AEW would be huge, and he'd be a huge shot in the arm to AEW in terms of starpower. AEWs roster is very weak right now, they basically only have Jericho, Moxley, Cody, MJF, and Omega, Punk would be a big addition.


----------



## RapShepard (Jun 20, 2014)

Soul Rex said:


> Again, I recomend you to watch SES Punk again and clean your eyes and ears, there is never point in arguing with people that denies tangible facts.
> 
> 
> 
> You can't deny Punk was a master heel who made the crowd rabid if you really watched him.


SES Punk was hated as a heel. The issue is on Punk's be DVD he asserted he was the top heel and should've main evented Mania over Miz and that's not true. But a lot of his fans bought into that and turn SES Punk into bigger than he was


----------



## Adam Cool (Oct 1, 2012)

Why can't people leave Punk alone already?


----------



## Reggie Dunlop (Nov 2, 2015)

AEWMoxley said:


> My definition of a wrestler who "sucks" is someone who is not main event material. I only care about you if you can show me that you are talented enough to be one of the guys in a promotion. Hangman can't. I've seen all I need to from him. He doesn't have the charisma to be a main eventer, therefore I have no interest in seeing him anywhere other than the midcard.


Ok, now you’re talking about WWE-land, where they have a roster full of main event talent who can’t get over a fucking book of matches because they’re all booked to go over each other at the whim of VKM. You have to have top-tier guys, and you have to have mid-tier guys to feed them to keep them top-tier guys. They can’t all be main eventers, that notion is just silly. They (AEW) obviously think Page is main-event material. The company hasn’t been around long enough yet for that to be proven wrong. The strongest evidence we have is that you don’t like the guy. Not what I’d call a compelling case for the blanket statement that he sucks.



Adam Cool said:


> Why can't people leave Punk alone already?


At least offer him a goddamn ice cream bar.


----------



## AEWMoxley (May 26, 2019)

Reggie Dunlop said:


> Ok, now you’re talking about WWE-land, where they have a roster full of main event talent who can’t get over a fucking book of matches because they’re all booked to go over each other at the whim of VKM. You have to have top-tier guys, and you have to have mid-tier guys to feed them to keep them top-tier guys. They can’t all be main eventers, that notion is just silly. They (AEW) obviously think Page is main-event material. The company hasn’t been around long enough yet for that to be proven wrong. The strongest evidence we have is that you don’t like the guy. Not what I’d call a compelling case for the blanket statement that he sucks.
> 
> 
> At least offer him a goddamn ice cream bar.


I haven't watched WWE in several years, but unless they added a bunch of great new talent since about 2016, then no, they don't have a roster full of main eventers. The only guys I considered true main event talent that could deliver what a larger casual audience would look for were guys like Moxley (who is no longer there), Wyatt, and Owens. I'd put Joe in that category as well. I didn't get to see him in WWE, but I was familiar with his work from before. Everyone else is far too bland, especially the guys they've been pushing to the top.

The evidence for Hangman not being a main event talent is the fact that the audience simply doesn't care for the guy. It was abundantly clear at FFTF. He's got no charisma. He's exactly the type of guy WWE would push as their top face.


----------



## kingnoth1n (Nov 21, 2016)

Beatles123 said:


> DMD Mofomagic said:
> 
> 
> > Punk trained for close to 2 years, and had some of the best coaching in the sport.
> ...



Quit making excuses for Punks ineptitude in MMA. Hes a comic book writer that thought after two years he was ready for the big time in MMA (that isnt over night if ur an athlete with any kind of motor either, Jack Swagger hasn’t trained long at all 8 months I believe before his first fight, and he’s already 2-0 in MMA) and punk got starched bad by cans, one of which I’m positive I could hang with tbh, and threw the worst punches and had the worst takedown defense I’ve ever seen, ESPECIALLY considering the team he trains with.

He could train ten years and he will never ever have a winning record in MMA. These are facts.

As for Page if he isn’t main event level, then they should have kept him the fuck away from the All Out M.E. Too late to turn back now. Nepotism has already ruined that.

In fact, Page in AEW and Punks MMA careers run parallel.

You got two guys, in spots, where they straight up don’t belong, due to lack of tools to succeed. I agree Page May develop these tools over time but not now, specifically the charisma issue that several keep pointing out, people just don’t care, and again it reeks of nepotism.

I bet AEW regrets big time having Hangman job to dick boy and dick druids at All In at this point.


----------



## DMD Mofomagic (Jun 9, 2017)

kingnoth1n said:


> As for Page if he isn’t main event level, then they should have kept him the fuck away from the All Out M.E. Too late to turn back now. Nepotism has already ruined that.
> 
> In fact, Page in AEW and Punks MMA careers run parallel.
> 
> ...


You and I disagree whole heartedly here.

i have been watching Adam Page since 2013, he is as exciting as a whole wheat bun.

Dude is a female Bayley. They both cut shitty promos, and have proven it when given freedom, and they both do everything else slightly above average.

He is just OK. People give the excuse of "He needs more time" He joined the Bullet Club 3 fucking years ago, and still is "just not ready yet" 

He isn't ready, because he is not a main eventer, I know that people in this section won't like hearing it, but it is just true


----------



## kingnoth1n (Nov 21, 2016)

DMD Mofomagic said:


> kingnoth1n said:
> 
> 
> > As for Page if he isn’t main event level, then they should have kept him the fuck away from the All Out M.E. Too late to turn back now. Nepotism has already ruined that.
> ...



We don’t disagree, because I don’t think he will ever be champ material either I should have elaborated more there.

But they will make him a champ eventually probably, and the title reign will flop, similar to Kingston.


It would be annoying to me if they put the strap on him now and his acolytes claim he’s drawing when in fact it’s the brand itself for at least the first year


----------



## Beatles123 (Jan 26, 2010)

kingnoth1n said:


> Quit making excuses for Punks ineptitude in MMA. Hes a comic book writer that thought after two years he was ready for the big time in MMA (that isnt over night if ur an athlete with any kind of motor either, Jack Swagger hasn’t trained long at all 8 months I believe before his first fight, and he’s already 2-0 in MMA) and punk got starched bad by cans, one of which I’m positive I could hang with tbh, and threw the worst punches and had the worst takedown defense I’ve ever seen, ESPECIALLY considering the team he trains with.
> 
> He could train ten years and he will never ever have a winning record in MMA. These are facts.
> 
> ...


That wasn't an excuse though. I said he SHOULD have trained properly, but he didn't and thats his fault.

I don't think Hangman is as bad off as people say. He's a little raw yet but nothing awful and has been improving well. He's not winning at All Out I don't think, but he should be protected well.


----------



## AEWMoxley (May 26, 2019)

With Cody stating that he doesn't care about attracting casuals, all bets are off now. I could definitely see them putting the title on Hangman, unfortunately. Unless Tony steps in.


----------



## kingnoth1n (Nov 21, 2016)

Beatles123 said:


> kingnoth1n said:
> 
> 
> > Quit making excuses for Punks ineptitude in MMA. Hes a comic book writer that thought after two years he was ready for the big time in MMA (that isnt over night if ur an athlete with any kind of motor either, Jack Swagger hasn’t trained long at all 8 months I believe before his first fight, and he’s already 2-0 in MMA) and punk got starched bad by cans, one of which I’m positive I could hang with tbh, and threw the worst punches and had the worst takedown defense I’ve ever seen, ESPECIALLY considering the team he trains with.
> ...



Training has some to do with it, you have to have natural talent with it. I could train for the NBA all my life but does that mean I’m going to go to the big dance 1st pick in the draft, no.

Hangman belongs just not where he’s at, and you know it reeks of nepotism.



AEWMoxley said:


> With Cody stating that he doesn't care about attracting casuals, all bets are off now. I could definitely see them putting the title on Hangman, unfortunately. Unless Tony steps in.



Same and them claiming his success as a champ that shit would get old quick to his “core” audience.

I mean who really says that?! I’m sure TNT is going to hear about that, it’s just not a good look at all.


I’m anxious to see where they are 3-4 years in, and if they are still on TNT.


----------



## AEWMoxley (May 26, 2019)

kingnoth1n said:


> Same and them claiming his success as a champ that shit would get old quick to his “core” audience.
> 
> I mean who really says that?! I’m sure TNT is going to hear about that, it’s just not a good look at all.
> 
> ...


I'd much rather have Tony make the final bookings decisions than any of the EVPs. Cody just besmirched himself, and let's face it, The Young Bucks don't really have any aptitude for the business, otherwise they'd realize that their act appeals to maybe 50 people on the entire planet. The EVPs can be involved in some of the creative stuff, but I'd much rather trust Tony, who is a successful businessman, to be responsible for the overall direction of the company, including match outcomes. There are indications that this is/will be the case, and hopefully it stays that way.


----------



## Beatles123 (Jan 26, 2010)

kingnoth1n said:


> Training has some to do with it, you have to have natural talent with it. I could train for the NBA all my life but does that mean I’m going to go to the big dance 1st pick in the draft, no.
> 
> Hangman belongs just not where he’s at, and you know it reeks of nepotism.


Yeah, but the point is if he had started smaller and worked at it he probably would have done better than......whatever the fuck that was. What he did was like going to the NFL despite never playing football in his life. You just don't do that shit. He was dumb to try to learn that quickly.

As for hangman, I think if there was one guy they had to mold into a top face from their group it would be him. The guy just needs solid creative, This isn't a popular opinion but when he was feuding with Ryan (and lets exclude him from the subject) he actually had a pretty neat psychopath character brewing. He should have went insane and started choking people out and generally being darker. Finding a sadistic pleasure in making others meet their end. Thus, he could have created a meaning behind being called "Hangman".

I do think he's growing, though. He generally gets good reactions, but he needs better character work. I wish they'd let him run with the "Workhorse" thing. That almost went viral. He should carry himself like an outlaw. Someone who could smash a beer bottle over his head and still stand.

Little nuances like that could help him a lot.


----------



## kingnoth1n (Nov 21, 2016)

AEWMoxley said:


> kingnoth1n said:
> 
> 
> > Same and them claiming his success as a champ that shit would get old quick to his “core” audience.
> ...


They better hope NXT doesn’t dive bomb them with a Wednesday time slot on USA at the same time any time soon but I bet they will middle of next year once the new shine wears off.


----------



## Chan Hung (Dec 28, 2011)

kingnoth1n said:


> AEWMoxley said:
> 
> 
> > kingnoth1n said:
> ...


They already beat you to it..reports are on FS1 theyll have NXT on Wednesdays same time as they were on network


----------



## DMD Mofomagic (Jun 9, 2017)

AEWMoxley said:


> I'd much rather have Tony make the final bookings decisions than any of the EVPs. Cody just besmirched himself, and let's face it, The Young Bucks don't really have any aptitude for the business, otherwise they'd realize that their act appeals to maybe 50 people on the entire planet. The EVPs can be involved in some of the creative stuff, but I'd much rather trust Tony, who is a successful businessman, to be responsible for the overall direction of the company, including match outcomes. There are indications that this is/will be the case, and hopefully it stays that way.


Having Tony Khan be head of creative would be the single worst idea that they have.

Khan is the money guy, he should go out and fine someone he trusts to write the best show possible for him.

Khan would get played by so many talents, you don't think that talent would be consistently politicking to him over their spot.

People do that with Vince McMahon, you think wrestlers are going to listen to Tony f'n Khan?

Cody has said in the past there are writers from WWE he actually liked, they could have gotten 1-2 of those guys worst case


----------



## NondescriptWWEfan (May 9, 2017)

of course they don't NEED him but he would be a welcome addition. wwe survived without alexa for decades but once she joined she made the show infinitely better. ❤


----------



## AEWMoxley (May 26, 2019)

DMD Mofomagic said:


> Having Tony Khan be head of creative would be the single worst idea that they have.
> 
> Khan is the money guy, he should go out and fine someone he trusts to write the best show possible for him.
> 
> ...


Who said anything about creative? I said he should be in charge of the overall direction of the company, and he should be the one who decides who to push, based on who is actually drawing money and benefiting the company.

The creative decisions, with respect to storylines, could be left to a group of writers with input from the wrestlers, and the promos should be left entirely to the wrestlers.

Vince McMahon is a senile imbecile. I haven't seen anything that would suggest Tony falls into that category. He and his father are both vastly more successful businessmen than Vince.


----------



## EMGESP (Apr 3, 2016)

kingnoth1n said:


> Case in point:


That is a horrible example. People were hating on Roman, he wasn't some up and comer that people didn't really know about. Nobody hates Page, they just don't know enough about him yet.


----------



## DMD Mofomagic (Jun 9, 2017)

AEWMoxley said:


> Who said anything about creative? I said he should be in charge of the overall direction of the company, and he should be the one who decides who to push, based on who is actually drawing money and benefiting the company.


Well who to push would be part of creative... but even if you want to play semantics... he would be shitty at that job too.

He has Jim f'n Ross, the guy who built the Attitude Era roster on his payroll, and you want a money mark who talks about being in ECW arena to handle the wrestling business things? No, my point still stands.

T


> he creative decisions, with respect to storylines, could be left to a group of writers with input from the wrestlers, and the promos should be left entirely to the wrestlers.


This is all vague stuff that honestly at the end of the day is great for the indies, but this aint the indies.

They are on TV, they have commercials, and two hours... they have to produce segments, they have time clocks.

The Young Bucks can't just go out and do a 12 minute promo because "the crowd was feeling it" 

This is live TV on top of that, Wrestlers go into business for themselves at times, how is Khan going to handle that, the kid gets talked down to by Dave Meltzer, he ain't ready.



> Vince McMahon is a senile imbecile. I haven't seen anything that would suggest Tony falls into that category. He and his father are both vastly more successful businessmen than Vince.


Shad Khan is the billionaire, Tony hasn't built anything yet, so you are correct Tony doesn't fall into his category.

Right now, he is just a money mark, let's see what he does, because money marks don't last long.

I get you have some unnatural hatred for WWE because they wronged you somehow, but I am talking about business, and you haven't explained how the one guy who has done the least in the wrestling is the guy they should give the most control to.


----------



## Beatles123 (Jan 26, 2010)

AEWMoxley said:


> Who said anything about creative? I said he should be in charge of the overall direction of the company, and he should be the one who decides who to push, based on who is actually drawing money and benefiting the company.
> 
> The creative decisions, with respect to storylines, could be left to a group of writers with input from the wrestlers, and the promos should be left entirely to the wrestlers.
> 
> Vince McMahon is a senile imbecile. I haven't seen anything that would suggest Tony falls into that category. He and his father are both vastly more successful businessmen than Vince.


Not only that, but Tony is actually a fan of wrestling itself unlike Vince. He can tell you about angles and matches from promotions you might not even be aware existed. If I were a wrestler i'd rather that be my boss than someone out to micromanage my career for me.

Jericho said it best though: Tony should have the final say on things. The good thing with AEW though is there's at least some collaboration and people are treated like people, not mindless worker bees. That already is a step beyonf what Vince is. Now Tony just has to prove he won't be Dixie Carter.



DMD Mofomagic said:


> Well who to push would be part of creative... but even if you want to play semantics... he would be shitty at that job too.
> 
> He has Jim f'n Ross, the guy who built the Attitude Era roster on his payroll, and you want a money mark who talks about being in ECW arena to handle the wrestling business things? No, my point still stands.


How is being an actual knowledgeable wrestling fan--specifically about ECW--a negative? Unless we're going to rely on tired old cliches about Bingo halls...


----------



## AEWMoxley (May 26, 2019)

DMD Mofomagic said:


> Well who to push would be part of creative... but even if you want to play semantics... he would be shitty at that job too.
> 
> He has Jim f'n Ross, the guy who built the Attitude Era roster on his payroll, and you want a money mark who talks about being in ECW arena to handle the wrestling business things? No, my point still stands.
> 
> ...


There's no wrestling experience required when deciding who to push. You push the wrestlers who make you the most money, and you make sure that your young stars with drawing potential get built up for a future push. This is what every single successful wrestling promotion on the planet has done, and if AEW wants TNT to re-new their deal when the time comes, this is what they need to do. A money mark is exactly what's needed. It would be great if Vince was a money mark. His product would be far more entertaining than it's been, and his company would generate greater revenue than it does, because their ratings and attendance wouldn't be plummeting. 

With respect to promos, I was referring to content. No one is cutting 12 minute promos.


----------



## DMD Mofomagic (Jun 9, 2017)

Beatles123 said:


> How is being an actual knowledgeable wrestling fan--specifically about ECW--a negative? Unless we're going to rely on tired old cliches about Bingo halls...


Because there is a difference between being a mark, and being in the business.

There just is Beatles, this is a tough industry, a tough business to be in, and a lot of people get into it being naive.

Knowledge of what happened in ECW is not going to help you when you have Jon Moxley snarling in your face asking why is his match being cut for time tonight

Knowing about wrestling history aint going to mean shit when you have an angle written out for 90 days, and a guy tweaks an ankle.

Being able to look at daddy's memory book with you aint going to do anything for you when people keep asking you "Why are you pushing this guy, I don't like him"

I get it he loves wrestling, and I am not knocking him for that. But you have Jim ross, you have Chris Jericho,you have Arn Anderson, Dean Malenko, the list goes on and on.

Tony Khan just needs to sit back, keep his checkbook open, and watch and learn.

This aint about a bingo hall (I caught your little dig btw) but are you going to tell me that Tony Khan is more qualified than anyone I mentioned?



AEWMoxley said:


> There's no wrestling experience required when deciding who to push. You push the wrestlers who make you the most money, and you make sure that your young stars with drawing potential get built up for a future push. This is what every single successful wrestling promotion on the planet has done, and if AEW wants TNT to re-new their deal when the time comes, this is what they need to do. A money mark is exactly what's needed. It would be great if Vince was a money mark. His product would be far more entertaining than it's been, and his company would generate greater revenue than it does, because their ratings and attendance wouldn't be plummeting.
> 
> With respect to promos, I was referring to content. No one is cutting 12 minute promos.


Ok, let's assume you are right.

You tell me the names, tell me the names of all the money marks (Guys who came from outside the business with nothing more than a checkbook) who were successful as the head of the company 

BTW, before you say ted Turner, he had wrestling people running the operations, and was losing money until Bischoff came in.

I can't wait for this long list of successful people who ran wrestling companies, take your time, you are going to need it.


----------



## Beatles123 (Jan 26, 2010)

DMD Mofomagic said:


> Because there is a difference between being a mark, and being in the business.
> 
> There just is Beatles, this is a tough industry, a tough business to be in, and a lot of people get into it being naive.
> 
> ...


No, but who do you think it was that put himself around those people in the first place? Would you rather he listen to Vince Russo and/or Bruce Pritchard instead?...No? Then give him some credit. The dude obviously has some wrestling smarts, and if you want to be successful at ANY job, you have to know about the field you're in and so far, Tony seems to have been able to use his analytical knowledge and apply that to wrestling. We'll see if it bares fruit.

My point is that you tried to spin loving your craft into a negative and i think that's rather depressing, unless i'm not understanding you.

Edit: As for the dig, it wasn't one. I'm glad you didn't resort to that cliche.


----------



## Soul Rex (Nov 26, 2017)

RapShepard said:


> SES Punk was hated as a heel. The issue is on Punk's be DVD he asserted he was the top heel and should've main evented Mania over Miz and that's not true. But a lot of his fans bought into that and turn SES Punk into bigger than he was


Is there really any doubts CM Punk, one of the greatest wrestler to never main event WM should have main evented over argurably..The worst wrestler to ever main event WM?


----------



## validreasoning (Jul 4, 2012)

AEWMoxley said:


> Vince McMahon is a senile imbecile. I haven't seen anything that would suggest Tony falls into that category. He and his father are both vastly more successful businessmen than Vince.


What has Tony Khan been solely responsible for to suggest he is far more successful than Vince?

Vince is most successful wrestling promoter in history.


----------



## AEWMoxley (May 26, 2019)

DMD Mofomagic said:


> Ok, let's assume you are right.
> 
> You tell me the names, tell me the names of all the money marks (Guys who came from outside the business with nothing more than a checkbook) who were successful as the head of the company
> 
> ...


I reject your definition of a money mark. A money mark is simply someone who marks at the prospect of maximizing profit. That's it. Whether they previously came from outside of the industry or not doesn't matter, because no one suggested that they be involved in anything other than strictly the business aspect, which includes asset utilization.

Vince McMahon, going by the definition above, was a money mark back in the Attitude Era. He wanted nothing more than to destroy WCW and to maximize net income, and unsurprisingly, this was the most profitable (and entertaining) period in his company's history. He did this by giving freedom to his talent and having the final say on who would get a push, and because he was involved in a war that he had to win, he was forced to push guys who were proven draws.

You can bring in a bunch of people with industry experience to help with creative and the structure of the television show, but the guy with money on the line should be the one who ultimately makes the final decision on who gets a push, based on how much money they draw. Money never lies.


----------



## Jazminator (Jan 9, 2018)

I never got into CM Punk because I wasn't really watching the WWE when he was there. I'm sure he'd be a good "get," but let's face it: No wrestler is a "must have." Wrestlers come and go in every promotion, and good companies are able to withstand the departures of top talents. The WWE was able to move on from Hulk Hogan and Steve Austin, for example. WCW went on without Ric Flair for a brief time. TNA survived even with AJ Styles left.

Even Kenny Omega, Cody Rhodes and the Young Bucks aren't guaranteed to stay with AEW forever. Just about everyone moves on at some point.


----------



## AEWMoxley (May 26, 2019)

validreasoning said:


> What has Tony Khan been solely responsible for to suggest he is far more successful than Vince?
> 
> Vince is most successful wrestling promoter in history.


The statement was that the Khans are more successful businessmen than Vince. You're not attempting to dispute this, are you?


----------



## validreasoning (Jul 4, 2012)

AEWMoxley said:


> The statement was that the Khans are more successful businessmen than Vince. You're not attempting to dispute this, are you?


Tony was still in college when his fathers company was generating over a billion dollars annually. The Khan's success is solely down to Shahid not Shahid and Tony.


----------



## AEWMoxley (May 26, 2019)

validreasoning said:


> Tony was still in college when his fathers company was generating over a billion dollars annually. The Khan's success is solely down to Shahid not Shahid and Tony.


You're ignoring their other two big ventures. Shahid and Tony's involvement in AEW is similar to their involvement in the Jaguars and Fullham FC. They're both co-owners, with Shahid being the principal investor, while Tony is a President and more involved in the business and operations aspect.


----------



## Reggie Dunlop (Nov 2, 2015)

AEWMoxley said:


> You're ignoring their other two big ventures. Shahid and Tony's involvement in AEW is similar to their involvement in the Jaguars and Fullham FC. They're both co-owners, with Shahid being the principal investor, while Tony is a President and more involved in the business and operations aspect.


I gotta agree with you on this. Tony does have the business sense, and he's an avid fan of the 'sport'. He's surrounded himself with some people who are pretty knowledgeable about the business with newer ideas. The biggest risk facing the promotion right now is a pretty thin talent pool to pick from, because most of the best talent is already signed with WWE and Impact, and maybe to an extent ROH, which means they've got to be extra careful about who gets pushed. But that will change in time -- contracts will be running out, and new talent is always coming up through the indy ranks. They just need to weather these initial growing pains first. 

The question is in how well Tony is able to strike a balance between himself and his people. I agree that as the main money guy, he should have final say on major matters; and I agree that as a long-time and knowledgeable fan, he's more likely to make the right decisions than not. But he also has to be able to recognize when his people have good ideas, and his people have to know when he's making a decision that's best for the company when they don't all agree. I think it's a different dynamic from any other big promotions so far, and it's gonna be interesting to see how they fare.


----------



## kingnoth1n (Nov 21, 2016)

Beatles123 said:


> DMD Mofomagic said:
> 
> 
> > Because there is a difference between being a mark, and being in the business.
> ...


You still haven’t learned.

He brought up excellent examples that u fail to ignore in your reply because u have ur hill you’d rather die on instead of give and take, this is why you were on my ignore list, and instead u deflect talking about Russo and Prichard whom he didn’t bring up. Then u end with a dig and a half hearted compliment.



DMD Mofomagic said:


> AEWMoxley said:
> 
> 
> > Who said anything about creative? I said he should be in charge of the overall direction of the company, and he should be the one who decides who to push, based on who is actually drawing money and benefiting the company.
> ...



Great post man ur bringing the heat. I don’t mean this as disrespect to JR but listening to him these days And his mannerisms I’m not sure if he’s fully able to take full creative control, quite the task now Jericho....man I like where ur minds going there.


He fully gets it, great psychology to the business, great mind, can teach promos, understand what elicits strong reaction...has literally seen it all, would just have to sacrifice some of his extracurricular endeavors and idk if he would do that.


----------



## Nothing Finer (Apr 12, 2017)

This is the most obvious troll thread ever made. Those of you who are replying to it as though it's someone making serious points that need to be debunked ought to take a look at yourselves.


----------



## Beatles123 (Jan 26, 2010)

kingnoth1n said:


> You still haven’t learned.
> 
> He brought up excellent examples that u fail to ignore in your reply because u have ur hill you’d rather die on instead of give and take, this is why you were on my ignore list, and instead u deflect talking about Russo and Prichard whom he didn’t bring up. Then u end with a dig and a half hearted compliment.


He says he surrounded himself with good people. Why not at least credit him for that? That was all I'm saying. I got his pounts. There was nothing I disagreed with except that. 

That was a half hearted compliment? I was saying I was glad he disn't bring it up.


There must be some miscommunication here. I thought the conversation was going civilly.

Edit: Hey though, if Tony ends up going the way of Dixie I'll call him out. So far he seems to be much smarter than her.

DMD, I'm sorry if you felt attacked BTW.


----------



## RapShepard (Jun 20, 2014)

I don't get how anybody can support Tony as far as being able to successfully do wrestling roles. He's at this point too inexperienced. Just on his own non-money related merits it doesn't make much sense. There's more to being in the wrestling business than fantasy booking. 

With him being a fan who bought his way into the business, you run the risk of him getting played because of his fandom it happened to Dixie and even Bischoff who wasn't even a fan at first. You also run the risk of him going the playing with my toys route, like Vince and eventually Dixie fell victim too. Among all other issues that happen. 



Soul Rex said:


> Is there really any doubts CM Punk, one of the greatest wrestler to never main event WM should have main evented over argurably..The worst wrestler to ever main event WM?


Well he wasn't hotter than Miz as a heel, so yes he deserved over Punk at 27. You can talk about skill level but at that point Miz was the bigger heel.


----------



## Soul Rex (Nov 26, 2017)

RapShepard said:


> Well he wasn't hotter than Miz as a heel, so yes he deserved over Punk at 27. You can talk about skill level but at that point Miz was the bigger heel.


The Miz has never been hotter than Punk at any point of his career, more importantly he has never been hot enough to be even considerable to main event wrestlemania.

He was a midcard tier heel put on a place he didn't belong, he was just an aftertought in between the feud of two main eventers (Rock and Cena).


----------



## shandcraig (Mar 23, 2008)

RapShepard said:


> I don't get how anybody can support Tony as far as being able to successfully do wrestling roles. He's at this point too inexperienced. Just on his own non-money related merits it doesn't make much sense. There's more to being in the wrestling business than fantasy booking.
> 
> With him being a fan who bought his way into the business, you run the risk of him getting played because of his fandom it happened to Dixie and even Bischoff who wasn't even a fan at first. You also run the risk of him going the playing with my toys route, like Vince and eventually Dixie fell victim too. Among all other issues that happen.
> 
> Well he wasn't hotter than Miz as a heel, so yes he deserved over Punk at 27. You can talk about skill level but at that point Miz was the bigger heel.


Tony knows how to run a business and understands hows to work towards building and only has a few business and is heavily involved in wrestling.Huge difference from anyone else before that had big money. \


On the other note,How about those canucks eh


----------



## RapShepard (Jun 20, 2014)

Soul Rex said:


> The Miz has never been hotter than Punk at any point of his career, more importantly he has never been hot enough to be even considerable to main event wrestlemania.
> 
> He was a midcard tier heel put on a place he didn't belong, he was just an aftertought in between the feud of two main eventers (Rock and Cena).


You can say all that but he was getting more heat than Punk at the time going into Mania 27. It's not up for debate. You can feel how you want about Punk being more skilled I won't disagree. But tape don't lie and Miz was more hated as a heel.



shandcraig said:


> Tony knows how to run a business and understands hows to work towards building and only has a few business and is heavily involved in wrestling.Huge difference from anyone else before that had big money. \
> 
> 
> On the other note,How about those canucks eh


But what does knowing how to run a business have to do with running a wrestling business, especially in the booking and creative parts? I don't think anybody sane would say he shouldn't handle the non-carny part of the business. But when it comes to booking, creative, and all that Jazz he should be hands off. Similar to how Vince shouldn't be hands on any of the football football aspects of the XFL.


----------



## Soul Rex (Nov 26, 2017)

RapShepard said:


> You can say all that but he was getting more heat than Punk at the time going into Mania 27. It's not up for debate. You can feel how you want about Punk being more skilled I won't disagree. But tape don't lie and Miz was more hated as a heel.
> 
> .


I am not sure what do you mean by heat, Miz has always had the same midcard level reactions and aura, he has never felt like a impactful top heel, even Corbin today feels more like a real heel who draws real heat and attention than Miz back then.

Punk was obviously bigger, but that is noy saying much. I agree is not up to debate, you are saying nosense.


----------



## RapShepard (Jun 20, 2014)

Soul Rex said:


> I am not sure what do you mean by heat, Miz has always had the same midcard level reactions and aura, he has never felt like a impactful top heel, even Corbin today feels more like a real heel who draws real heat and attention than Miz back then.
> 
> 
> 
> Punk was obviously bigger, but that is noy saying much. I agree is not up to debate, you are saying nosense.


Heat as in boos, you know the thing heels are supposed to get. Miz at that time got more boos than Punk at the time he just did. Who you like more or think is more skilled is irrelevant to who got louder boos. Hell the fact this was when the regular fans and hardcore fans hated Miz just furthers adds to why Punk wasn't a bigger heel. .


----------



## Soul Rex (Nov 26, 2017)

RapShepard said:


> Heat as in boos, you know the thing heels are supposed to get. Miz at that time got more boos than Punk at the time he just did. Who you like more or think is more skilled is irrelevant to who got louder boos. Hell the fact this was when the regular fans and hardcore fans hated Miz just furthers adds to why Punk wasn't a bigger heel. .


The fact is you are still talking like The Miz got some legendary heat or super audible boos, he didn't, he heat he got was the standar for a midcard heel with half lf it being go away heat.

He wasn't bigger heel than Punk or nobody.


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

They don't need CM Punk, but it would help.


----------



## RapShepard (Jun 20, 2014)

Soul Rex said:


> The fact is you are still talking like The Miz got some legendary heat or super audible boos, he didn't, he heat he got was the standar for a midcard heel with half lf it being go away heat.
> 
> 
> 
> He wasn't bigger heel than Punk or nobody.


WWE Champion Miz > New Nexus Punk as a heel and character. 

Miz was the better heel going into Mania 27. He just was his feuds from Daniel Bryan over the US belt, winning MitB, stealing the title off of Randy, and his Lawler feud had him getting more heat than New Nexus Punk.


----------



## Soul Rex (Nov 26, 2017)

RapShepard said:


> WWE Champion Miz > New Nexus Punk as a heel and character.
> 
> Miz was the better heel going into Mania 27. He just was his feuds from Daniel Bryan over the US belt, winning MitB, stealing the title off of Randy, and his Lawler feud had him getting more heat than New Nexus Punk.


His feud with Orton was shit, his stuff with Lawler.. Dear god, get thay shit out of my head. His feud with Bryan was decent because the narrative.. The Miz and Michael Cole.. I definitely see people hated this pair appearing on their screen. LMAO

Honestly, I am insulting Punk by even attempting to make this a debate, I am honestly shocked you just think The Miz as champion was any good, let a alone the comparision. Yikes.


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

The Miz is a great prick, but I'm not sure he makes a good in-ring heel at all. Things were pretty dire under him as champion. As a manager? Sure. Man, can you imagine if Bryan came back and after destroying Owens & Zayn at Mania, basically by himself, he went on a Miz hunt, got the little bastard, and kicked him in the head so hard he got a "concussion" and had to quit wrestling? The irony of Miz's words on Talking Smack coming back to haunt him. Miz then makes it his life's mission to not only be the greatest actor of our generation, but also to make sure that someone takes Daniel Bryan out of the wrestling industry. 

But that would be wrestling.


----------



## RapShepard (Jun 20, 2014)

Soul Rex said:


> His feud with Orton was shit, his stuff with Lawler.. Dear god, get thay shit out of my head. His feud with Bryan was decent because the narrative.. The Miz and Michael Cole.. I definitely see people hated this pair appearing on their screen. LMAO
> 
> 
> 
> Honestly, I am insulting Punk by even attempting to make this a debate, I am honestly shocked you just think The Miz as champion was any good, let a alone the comparision. Yikes.


Yet he still got more boos than Punk .
I said nothing about who I liked better. Unlike you I'm just not being deaf to who was more hated as a heel. You're doing the classic "well I don't like him so how he did in his role doesn't count" deflection.


----------



## the44boz (Apr 29, 2014)

Neither does UFC, neither does WWE, neither does A.J. Lee


----------



## RapShepard (Jun 20, 2014)

The Wood said:


> The Miz is a great prick, but I'm not sure he makes a good in-ring heel at all. Things were pretty dire under him as champion. As a manager? Sure. Man, can you imagine if Bryan came back and after destroying Owens & Zayn at Mania, basically by himself, he went on a Miz hunt, got the little bastard, and kicked him in the head so hard he got a "concussion" and had to quit wrestling? The irony of Miz's words on Talking Smack coming back to haunt him. Miz then makes it his life's mission to not only be the greatest actor of our generation, but also to make sure that someone takes Daniel Bryan out of the wrestling industry.
> 
> But that would be wrestling.


Miz up until he got hardcore fan respect was a good heel in and out the ring. Stuff like adding the Miz Kicks back when they were hated was good heel shit.


----------



## Soul Rex (Nov 26, 2017)

RapShepard said:


> Yet he still got more boos than Punk .
> I said nothing about who I liked better. Unlike you I'm just not being deaf to who was more hated as a heel. You're doing the classic "well I don't like him so how he did in his role doesn't count" deflection.


He got more boos? Like can you really make a precise analyse about that shit?
"I heard a few more folks booing The Miz in some randome raw, he definitely was more over".

What is this dense shit lol. Even assuming The Miz got clearly a more audible crowd reaction 99% of the time (he didn't) it doesn't change the fact that he was irrelevant and people most likely booed him because he was in the spotlight.


----------



## RapShepard (Jun 20, 2014)

Soul Rex said:


> He got more boos? Like can you really make a precise analyse about that shit?
> "I heard a few more folks booing The Miz in some randome raw, he definitely was more over".
> 
> What is this dense shit lol. Even assuming The Miz got clearly a more audible crowd reaction 99% of the time (he didn't) it doesn't change the fact that he was irrelevant and people most likely booed him because he was in the spotlight.


WWE champion Miz > New Nexus Punk

When it comes to being top heel. Punk can still be the bigger star legacy wise and stillnhas value for AEW but 

WWE champion Miz > New Nexus Punk


----------



## Soul Rex (Nov 26, 2017)

RapShepard said:


> WWE champion Miz > New Nexus Punk
> 
> When it comes to being top heel. Punk can still be the bigger star legacy wise and stillnhas value for AEW but
> 
> WWE champion Miz > New Nexus Punk


I disagree New Nexus Punk> Crippled Punk > Shit > WWE champion Miz.

My analisis? Some got more boos some day, figure out.


----------



## TheDraw (Jun 27, 2019)

Always thought Punk was overrated on the mic. Good but a lot of times sounds like he's reading off a queue card.



AEWMoxley said:


> Funny you should say this, because Cody besmirched himself and the company today by stating that he doesn't care about attracting casual fans. An absolutely embarrassing statement from an executive of the company.


Is this true? Can you link me? Because if he really thinks this the company is DOA already and I probably won't be watching long.

Sounds like he's just being stubborn. Obtaining the casual viewer is why the UFC has had success. This is basically like saying he doesn't care about success. If I was Tony Khan I would slap him.


----------



## DMD Mofomagic (Jun 9, 2017)

AEWMoxley said:


> I reject your definition of a money mark. A money mark is simply someone who marks at the prospect of maximizing profit. That's it. Whether they previously came from outside of the industry or not doesn't matter, because no one suggested that they be involved in anything other than strictly the business aspect, which includes asset utilization.
> 
> Vince McMahon, going by the definition above, was a money mark back in the Attitude Era. He wanted nothing more than to destroy WCW and to maximize net income, and unsurprisingly, this was the most profitable (and entertaining) period in his company's history. He did this by giving freedom to his talent and having the final say on who would get a push, and because he was involved in a war that he had to win, he was forced to push guys who were proven draws.
> 
> You can bring in a bunch of people with industry experience to help with creative and the structure of the television show, but the guy with money on the line should be the one who ultimately makes the final decision on who gets a push, based on how much money they draw. Money never lies.


Ok, in that whole bowl of word salad you did two things:

1. Prove you have no idea what a money mark is
2. Avoided and never answered the question, because you don't know what a monery mark is.

Let me get you the definition first:



> Money Mark : A promoter who invests his own money in a wrestling promotion in order to get close to wrestlers and feel as if he is part of the wrestling industry. Wrestlers often pretend to be friends with the Money Mark, but snicker behind his back about fleecing him.


A money mark is a guy who tells a tag team on the indies "I can't do any of this without you"

A money mark is a guy who says "Yeah, Dave, I am really in awe of just meeting you"

A money mark gives 5 guys with no credentials EVP titles and benefits, and double salaries because he "needs" them instead of finding unemployed people who have done their roles

A money mark says that his first show was the best wrestling show anyone has ever witnessed

A money mark lets two guys go out and insult him and throw him under the bus because the dirt sheets and internet didn't like a part of the show

A money mark pays a guy more money than ANYONE ELSE ever(Chris Jericho), just because he saw him wrestle a match in 1996

A money mark lets a guy give his wife a title and a salary and in charge of a division just because of her last name

Khan is a money mark, and for anyone to think a money mark is going to actually succeed in this business, there is a lady in Nashville who can tell you how that story ends.

In fact, I changed my mind, I believe Punk is coming... Khan probably has given him the blank check months ago



kingnoth1n said:


> Great post man ur bringing the heat. I don’t mean this as disrespect to JR but listening to him these days And his mannerisms I’m not sure if he’s fully able to take full creative control, quite the task now Jericho....man I like where ur minds going there.
> 
> 
> He fully gets it, great psychology to the business, great mind, can teach promos, understand what elicits strong reaction...has literally seen it all, would just have to sacrifice some of his extracurricular endeavors and idk if he would do that.


You may be right, but I trust JR or Jericho to stand in front of media and answer questions instead of these guys.

I LOVE the Young Bucks, I am a super mark for them, but they answered Cody getting hit by the chair like a couple of condescending asshat wrestlers who were mad the marks questioned them. No one is going to say it because that would mean that AEW fucked up, but guess what? AEW fucked up.

"You thought it was dangerous" is just stupid. Could you imagine if a QB got concussed in a football game (since you know, this is a sport and all) and the coach went out at the press conference and said "You though him going back in was dangerous" the papers would be on their ass like white on rice.

This is how JR answered it when asked by Austin:



> JR: “Now I’m not a big advocate of getting hit in the head with a steel chair, in any way. I called it, I called it like I saw it, Cody turned his head, he got hit in the side of the head. At least he didn’t bust his face open cause with that chair malfunction there’s no telling what he’d look like with that, man. So I’m not a big fan of it, but it’s like calling a football play: I might want to run the ball right now and you wanna throw it, so both of us may get us a touchdown, hell I don’t know, but it’s overdone.
> 
> “I alluded to this earlier, I’ll just come out and say what I would do: I wouldn’t do anymore chair shots to the head. We’re done with that business. If I can’t have a team around me that are creative enough to get me the results of what I want in this angle or this storyline without having to scramble somebody’s brains for real then I need to find some more hands cause we got the wrong staff here. Your last original idea died of loneliness, c’mon.
> 
> ...


This is how an executive answers shit. he is diplomatic, explains it well, and takes fault where it lies, and admits they will learn from it.

These yahoos are out here claiming how people get upset they have no credentials and then say shit like "You think it was dangerous" like a teacher just asked them if they were really smoking in the hallway.

It's f'n embarrassing, and it is tiring that AEW stans are getting upset at others pointing it out. I want this company to do good and succeed, that means holding them accountable



Beatles123 said:


> Hey though, if Tony ends up going the way of Dixie I'll call him out. So far he seems to be much smarter than her.
> 
> DMD, I'm sorry if you felt attacked BTW.


No worries, i don't mind bantering.

But a few things:

I am not going to give Tony Khan credit for miscasting the people he hired.

He put Cody, Kenny and the Bucks in position as EVP's, when that should have been Jim Ross' job from the get go, or Ross should be President.

If someone hired Elon Musk and made him a janitor, that doesn't make them a genius for hiring Elon Musk, that makes them an idiot for making him a janitor.

And that is the thing, he has people in the wrong positions right now, and even the people who are in those positions are contradicting what he is saying.

As for your Dixie comment, dude you wont, because you havent already.

Dixie wanted Hulk Hogan, and Hogan talked her into taking Eric Bischoff. But at least those two guys had experience.

How is that any different than Brandi Rhodes getting the position she has because Cody is her husband?

The signs of Dixie are there, people don't want to see them, but they are there.


----------



## RiverFenix (Dec 10, 2011)

Don't need him, but should want him. Similarly if I was Punk - this is his last shot at an easy pay day here. 6 months in AEW or work Vince for a deal just to sit his ass at home and never wrestle again. 

Would Vince wire Punk $5M to never wrestle again for any promotion, including wwe?


----------



## Beatles123 (Jan 26, 2010)

DMD Mofomagic said:


> Ok, in that whole bowl of word salad you did two things:
> 
> 1. Prove you have no idea what a money mark is
> 2. Avoided and never answered the question, because you don't know what a monery mark is.
> ...


I think if thats the most egregious comparisson to Dixie, then we should be thankful. I think tou're underestimating how bad Dixie was. Hogan and Bischoff were worse for TNA than Brandi has been so far, and I don't even like Brandi that much.

Second, JR has stated many times that he didn't want an EVP job.

I just think its far too early to just wright Tony off the way you seem to be, but don't worry: I was the same way with Hogan in TNA. If it gets as bad as that for me, I'll tell ya.


Let us all just remember that there are other ways of seeing things than our own. I think both sides of this forget that.


----------



## DMD Mofomagic (Jun 9, 2017)

Beatles123 said:


> I think if thats the most egregious comparisson to Dixie, then we should be thankful. I think tou're underestimating how bad Dixie was. Hogan and Bischoff were worse for TNA than Brandi has been so far, and I don't even like Brandi that much.


Revisionist history.

There was a time when Dixie was literally known as "Panda Energy"

Bear in mind, she was a lot like Khan, made herself accessible to wrestling journalists (She and Wade Keller would have conversations about booking)

Dixie really didn't start being hated and get her rep until she got on TV. In fact if you hear people talk about Dixie, they say her biggest problem is that she never stood up and made herself Vince McMahon "the buck stops here" like. 

Khan has not shown me he is willing to be a hard ass... how do you think he would have handled the Sasha situation? He couldn't even handle another company telling him that their champ couldn't lose



> Second, JR has stated many times that he didn't want an EVP job.


Well, shit on a sundae.. I guess Jim ross was the only person available, and if he says no, then he had to hire people with no experience.

FFS, it's pretty simple, you still had access to people with more experience. Cary Silkin I am sure could be bought, and considering what he made RoH he would be a guy to listen to. 

The point stays the same, there were people out there better, doesn't mean those guys could not have learned on the fly... but getting them out there is a mistake.



> I just think its far too early to just wright Tony off the way you seem to be, but don't worry: I was the same way with Hogan in TNA. If it gets as bad as that for me, I'll tell ya.
> 
> 
> Let us all just remember that there are other ways of seeing things than our own. I think both sides of this forget that.


And I think to ignore signs that are in front of you are naive, and setting yourself up for disappointment.

I am not writing Tony off, that is being melodramatic. I have given nothing but constructive criticism, and pointed out where his mistakes are.

The problem is that people called out these mistakes months ago, and yet, the same people are saying "Oh well, give it a chance"

Calling Tony Khan a money mark does not equal "I want AEW to fail" it means, this dude is a money mark, and should not be in charge, which is what I was responding to.

They have things I like about them, I like Orange Cassidy, I like MJF, I like the EVP's as wrestlers, but there are things I don't like.

And pointing those things out doesn't make either of us wrong or right.... we do all understand that.


----------



## ObsoleteMule (Sep 4, 2016)

The Inbred Goatman said:


> The MJF dickriding is actually getting out of hand, he's really good don't get me wrong, and his ceiling is incredibly high, but jesus fuck you guys are blowing it out of proportion like crazy.


I usually dont let others take away from my enjoyment of another wrestler, but the MJF dickriders are really pushing me to that point. Like holy shit, this is approaching thirsty Alexa Bliss fans and The Lynch Mob levels of bad. 

Youre not gonna find anyone saying the guy isnt talented and doesnt have potential but to crown this mostly unproven guy as better than a figure that actually captivated the ENTIRE wrestling world for a moment of time is crazy. 

I know alot of you dudebros want to see yourself in MJF (because for some reason alot you think being an asshole is a positive personality trait)... but trust me, dickriding isnt going to magically turn you into him. Remember the guy’s playing a character designed to be that way.. being an asshole in real life is juvenile as hell.

TLDR: Everyone agrees that MJF is talented and has potential but PLEASE PLEASE get the dick out your mouths and stop crowning him as a living legend.


----------



## AEWMoxley (May 26, 2019)

DMD Mofomagic said:


> Ok, in that whole bowl of word salad you did two things:
> 
> 1. Prove you have no idea what a money mark is
> 2. Avoided and never answered the question, because you don't know what a monery mark is.
> ...


That's an adorable and inarticulate definition that you literally made up out of thin air, but as I stated before, I reject your erroneous definition of that term. Hopefully you can comprehend that this time, and you don't embarrass yourself again by attempting to give me another erroneous definition of the term.

The Khans love to make money. They don't need to be involved in any of the actual creative decisions or in structuring a TV show. They can leave that to others with industry experience. They simply just need to select which stars they want to feature/push based on their drawing power, as this is, and always has been, strictly a business decision.

Let me know if you need me to draw you a diagram so that you can more easily digest what's being said to you. A diagram may be more suited for someone of your intellectual capabilities.


----------



## ObsoleteMule (Sep 4, 2016)

The Wood said:


> The Miz is a great prick, but I'm not sure he makes a good in-ring heel at all. Things were pretty dire under him as champion. As a manager? Sure. Man, can you imagine if Bryan came back and after destroying Owens & Zayn at Mania, basically by himself, he went on a Miz hunt, got the little bastard, and kicked him in the head so hard he got a "concussion" and had to quit wrestling? The irony of Miz's words on Talking Smack coming back to haunt him. Miz then makes it his life's mission to not only be the greatest actor of our generation, but also to make sure that someone takes Daniel Bryan out of the wrestling industry.
> 
> But that would be wrestling.


Sorry for the double post but holy shit, I couldnt ignore this one... why the fuck can WWE ever come up with shit like this. Bet this took you like three minutes to think of this. This is the most frustrating thing about WWE, theres so much potential there for them to actually be good


----------



## DMD Mofomagic (Jun 9, 2017)

AEWMoxley said:


> That's an adorable and inarticulate definition that you literally made up out of thin air, but as I stated before, I reject your erroneous definition of that term. Hopefully you can comprehend that this time, and you don't embarrass yourself again by attempting to give me another erroneous definition of the term.


You know what I love the most about this forum?

I love when people like you who are so wrong, and don't know it double down on being wrong.

It isn't my definition, its an insider term... I can show you from a couple of sources:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossary_of_professional_wrestling_terms

https://www.pwtorch.com/insiderglossary.shtml






You can put your fingers in your ears and scream, and pretend like the term doesn't exist, and try to snark your way out of it... but it still won't make it any less true.



> The Khans love to make money. They don't need to be involved in any of the actual creative decisions or in structuring a TV show. They can leave that to others with industry experience. They simply just need to select which stars they want to feature/push based on their drawing power, as this is, and always has been, strictly a business decision.


But that isn't what you said... here let me remind you:



AEWMoxley said:


> *I'd much rather have Tony make the final bookings decisions than any of the EVPs. *Cody just besmirched himself, and let's face it, The Young Bucks don't really have any aptitude for the business, otherwise they'd realize that their act appeals to maybe 50 people on the entire planet. *The EVPs can be involved in some of the creative stuff, but I'd much rather trust Tony, who is a successful businessman, to be responsible for the overall direction of the company, including match outcomes.* There are indications that this is/will be the case, and hopefully it stays that way.


Now my reading comprehension has been recently challenged, but it looks to me like you are advocating for Tony to not only be involved in creative, but the final say in creative... it's almost like you are contradicting yourself.



> Let me know if you need me to draw you a diagram so that you can more easily digest what's being said to you. A diagram may be more suited for someone of your intellectual capabilities.


No, I am good... like I said, you just did one of my favorite things I see in this forum, come in trying to hit me with snarks and quips like a bad ass, and only got confronted with evidence, and facts, and showing you are talking out of both sides of your mouth.

I am going to steal a catch phrase from one of the guys in the thread:

Get the hook!


----------



## Beatles123 (Jan 26, 2010)

DMD Mofomagic said:


> Revisionist history.
> 
> There was a time when Dixie was literally known as "Panda Energy"
> 
> ...


Nah, I don't think you want AEW to fail at all. Not saying that. Just trying too provide a dialog. 

I mentioned Jim because you mentioned that he was mishired and I was just trying to say he never wanted the job you're wishing he got, that's all.

As far as not being a hardas, how do you define that? The Elite have already said Tony has rejected plenty of their ideas.


----------



## Reggie Dunlop (Nov 2, 2015)

Any chance in hell we can stick to the subject of the thread instead of the volumes of drivel attacking anybody and everybody who doesn’t agree with one’s particular point of view? This whole subforum has suddenly turned into a royal fucking shitfest.


----------



## DMD Mofomagic (Jun 9, 2017)

Beatles123 said:


> As far as not being a hardas, how do you define that? The Elite have already said Tony has rejected plenty of their ideas.


Well, lets use the example I gave.

Sasha Banks was so upset at her booking, she literally took her ball and went home.

Now at the end of the day, it doesn't matter what, you, me, Dave Meltzer, the cashier at the grocery or anyone else thinks... she has left.

Now Vince McMahon handled it by calling her seeing if they could come to an agreement, but obviously not giving into whatever she is asking for.

Could you see Tony Khan doing that? Because here is the situation that he isn't prepared for:

If he gives in, what is stopping the next person from doing it to him?

or what if that isn't part of his master plan for his show coming up?

or what if they use TNA, or RoH, or New Japan as leverage?

This dude has never been in positions like that, it is different than "He said no to some of our ideas" this is a disgruntled employee who has you by the nuts telling you that she is going to embarrass you and show you up.

To me, he doesn't act like he has the stones to deal with that, not when he is marking out to Dave Meltzer.


----------



## AEWMoxley (May 26, 2019)

DMD Mofomagic said:


> You know what I love the most about this forum?
> 
> I love when people like you who are so wrong, and don't know it double down on being wrong.
> 
> ...


There's no need for you to cry and stomp your foot about it, little guy. I've rejected your definition twice before, and I'm doing it for a third time right now. I'm confident in the business acumen of the Khans, and their ability to go into completely different sports and have a positive impact on their franchises, especially since I'm very familiar with their work with the Jaguars and Fulham, and how they've turned both those teams around.

No, I'm advocating for Tony to have the final say on who gets featured and pushed. This has always been strictly a business decision in wrestling. You push the people who make you the most money. I also said that this would be a far better option than the EVPs taking this role, because I don't trust them to consistently make the right decisions for the good of the business, especially after Cody's comments this week. I have no doubt that the decision to push Hangman is theirs. That was a bad decision. After All Out is where the people with the money on the line, the Khans, need to step in and put a kibosh on it after it's clear it hasn't work. The creative aspect of the show (the storylines) and the structure of the TV show can be left to others.


----------



## DMD Mofomagic (Jun 9, 2017)

AEWMoxley said:


> There's no need for you to cry and stomp your foot about it, little guy. I've rejected your definition twice before, and I'm doing it for a third time right now. I'm confident in the business acumen of the Khans, and their ability to go into completely different sports and have a positive impact on their franchises, especially since *I'm very familiar with their work with the Jaguars and Fulham, and how they've turned both those teams around.*


Yeah he did look at the Jags.

He bought the team in 2011 and their record since has been:

2012: 2-14
2013: 4-12
2014: 3-13
2015: 5-11
2016: 3-13
2017: 10-6
2018: 5-11

6 out of 7 season in either last or next to last place. And they are 25th out of 32 teams in terms of valuation according to Forbes.

https://www.forbes.com/teams/jacksonville-jaguars/#114e830a3a8e

We are done here man, this thread is about CM Punk, and all that you have managed to show me is that Khan is silly enough to give the guy a blank check thinking it will mean more than it will.

Thanks for the evidence.


----------



## Beatles123 (Jan 26, 2010)

DMD Mofomagic said:


> Yeah he did look at the Jags.
> 
> He bought the team in 2011 and their record since has been:
> 
> ...


I don't think he was right to bring up the Jags, but they are as of right now doing well. Boy howdy, what a fantastic draft.

As for the sasha question I don't think its fair to say he can't handle that yet. There IS the pac situation but I think all that will work out. Msybe not? We'll see.

Also, both of you don't need to be at each other's throats. I think you both have valid points.


----------



## AEWMoxley (May 26, 2019)

DMD Mofomagic said:


> Yeah he did look at the Jags.
> 
> He bought the team in 2011 and their record since has been:
> 
> ...


Jags were literally minutes away from a SB appearance, and possibly even a SB win, in the 2017 season. They were leading until late in the game, at Foxboro no less (where almost no road team ever wins in the postseason) in the AFCCG.

2018 was a down season, mostly because Bortles, who was already a subpar QB, further declined. 

Their core group is still young and talented, and they just added a SB MVP QB to their team. Their young core, by the way, was scouted by Tony and his analytics team, and so they ended up drafting All-Pro talent across all levels of their defense.

This was also a franchise whose value was near dead last at one point, before the turn around.

Anyone denying that this is a franchise on the upswing clearly doesn't follow football.


----------



## RapShepard (Jun 20, 2014)

DetroitRiverPhx said:


> Don't need him, but should want him. Similarly if I was Punk - this is his last shot at an easy pay day here. 6 months in AEW or work Vince for a deal just to sit his ass at home and never wrestle again.
> 
> Would Vince wire Punk $5M to never wrestle again for any promotion, including wwe?


I believe Vince would give him 10million just so AEW couldn't have him. WWE could make money off of his merchandise, a 2k with Punk's career as showcase mode, HoF headline spot, and a part time spot.


----------



## sim8 (Oct 21, 2017)

They have done extremely well without him. So yeah, they don't really need him. But imagine how much better they could do with such a marquee name. Either way, AEW will do well if they continue the way they are going


----------



## DMD Mofomagic (Jun 9, 2017)

Beatles123 said:


> I don't think he was right to bring up the Jags, but they are as of right now doing well. Boy howdy, what a fantastic draft.
> 
> As for the sasha question I don't think its fair to say he can't handle that yet. There IS the pac situation but I think all that will work out. Msybe not? We'll see.
> 
> Also, both of you don't need to be at each other's throats. I think you both have valid points.


I remember when people thought Dante Fowler Jr was can't miss, and thought Leonard Fournette was the best pick in the draft.

At the end of the day, results matter, period. They are eons behind the Colts, the Texans are clearly better, and been put together in less time, and the titans at least have drafted a halfway capable QB

The Jags have a DB who talks too much, and a journeyman QB that they hope pulls out some magic.

As for the Sasha thing, I asked you for your opinion, do you think he has the stones to do that?

I remember when Sinclair pulled their RoH talent from shows because PWG wanted their champ to lose... this is the wrestling business, that is how things work.

Khan has come in and tried to be one of the boys. He has one of his major signings and arguably his most recognizable name (Moxley) working the G1.

Which brings us back to the main point of the thread... they don't need Punk, the things they need should have already been taken care of, they haven't but they still have time to make it right.

Punk doesn't generate them anymore business than they already have, he is a luxury, and you don't pay for a luxury as much as they would need to pay to get Punk.

I wasn't at the kid's throat at all, he just got into his feelings about being wrong...and I pointed it out. Happens sometimes, its WF after all.



RapShepard said:


> I believe Vince would give him 10million just so AEW couldn't have him. WWE could make money off of his merchandise, a 2k with Punk's career as showcase mode, HoF headline spot, and a part time spot.


I disagree wholeheartedly.

He told Jericho to go to Khan because he didn't see the value in him.

I don't think McMahon is going to pay the going rate for Punk.

Especially when you factor in you have to pay UFC a little stipend as well.


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## Beatles123 (Jan 26, 2010)

DMD Mofomagic said:


> I remember when people thought Dante Fowler Jr was can't miss, and thought Leonard Fournette was the best pick in the draft.
> 
> At the end of the day, results matter, period. They are eons behind the Colts, the Texans are clearly better, and been put together in less time, and the titans at least have drafted a halfway capable QB
> 
> ...


Honestly, I do. but I hope he also isn't as cuthreat as other promoters. This isnt the 50's and wrestling desperately needs to be more forgiving to other companies. This carny, good ole boy mentality is a disease.

As for the NFL, meh. Any given sunday. The Steelers are a raging cancerous tumor and still almost managed to get in the playoffs.


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## AEWMoxley (May 26, 2019)

That "DB who talks too much" is one of the best in the game. Their defense as a whole is stout.

Foles will be playing in the exact same system he played in Philly. DeFilippo was the OC in 2017 when the Eagles won the SB. Foles has an ordinary skillset at best, but JAX is a great schematic fit for him.

I'm a Patriots fan, so I've got no love for them, or any other team, but the Jags will make the postseason this year and will be a tough out for any opponent.


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## DMD Mofomagic (Jun 9, 2017)

AEWMoxley said:


> That "DB who talks too much" is one of the best in the game. Their defense as a whole is stout.
> 
> Foles will be playing in the exact same system he played in Philly. DeFilippo was the OC in 2017 when the Eagles won the SB. Foles has an ordinary skillset at best, but JAX is a great schematic fit for him.
> 
> I'm a Patriots fan, so I've got no love for them, or any other team, but the Jags will make the postseason this year and will be a tough out for any opponent.


Ramsey is great. But he still talks too much. Fournette couldn't stay healthy lastly, and Foles is unproven over 16 games.

They have a great defense, but the Colts defense is full of high end draft picks, including a guy who won defensive rookie of the year. And the Texans have an amazing defense as well, despite losing the honey badger

Andrew luck is the healthiest he has been, and looked like an MVP candidate, and DeShaun Watson looks to be taking the next steps, even a great Nick Foles, is still arguably the 3rd best QB in their division, and then look at the conference.

You think the Jags are better than these teams:

New England
Cleveland
Pittsburgh
Baltimore
indy
Houston
Kansas City
Los Angeles Chargers

That is 8 teams, that no one would question they are worse then, if you have them in the playoffs, which 3 teams are you taking out?

Then you have Oakland, who may or may not get it together, Sam Darnold and Josh Allen looking like they will be impressive and give their teams some wins, and the Jaguars are looking more mediocre.

We can talk football in that forum, but the Jags are very far from being the team that they were in 2017.



Beatles123 said:


> Honestly, I do. but I hope he also isn't as cuthreat as other promoters. This isnt the 50's and wrestling desperately needs to be more forgiving to other companies. This carny, good ole boy mentality is a disease.
> 
> As for the NFL, meh. Any given sunday. The Steelers are a raging cancerous tumor and still almost managed to get in the playoffs.


Beatles, dude one thing I can say, I do agree, I wish it werent cut throat either.

But that is also why I am saying I hope Khan learns his lesson when doing this.

He needs his own team in place, I would be a lot more excited about AEW if he said he had 2 or 3 writers, and 4 or 5 producers in place, and that he has hired a wrestling guy to handle the wrestling stuff.

Instead he keeps talking about how he has been using analytics by reading Meltzer's newsletter.

I am bowing out of this argument so people can talk more about Punk.


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## Sensei Utero (May 1, 2016)

nWo4Lyfe420 said:


> No doubt he has his fans and would be a big signing for them. He has a hardcore following, not a casual one. Similar to Bryan. He may increase a PPV by a few thousand buys. He's not a game changer though. Do you think he would draw more fans than Jericho already has for AEW? I just don't see it because there's no evidence to support it.
> 
> What I'll say about the MMA thing is I don't believe it hurt him within his own fanbase. Everyone knows wrestling is fake. What it didn't do though was grow his fanbase because anyone tuning in to his fights just to see what a wrestler can do in a real sport wasn't gonna leave impressed by him getting dicked on by a couple of nobodies.


I think he'd draw pretty similar, if not a few more. Punk and Jericho are kinda on the same wavelength.


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## RapShepard (Jun 20, 2014)

DMD Mofomagic said:


> Instead he keeps talking about how he has been *using analytics by reading Meltzer's newsletter*.
> 
> I am bowing out of this argument so people can talk more about Punk.


Wait what does that even mean? Is that why some people joke he'll have stats on how often somebody loses to a move and stuff like that?


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## DMD Mofomagic (Jun 9, 2017)

RapShepard said:


> Wait what does that even mean? Is that why some people joke he'll have stats on how often somebody loses to a move and stuff like that?


Khan is huge into analytics, and wants to incorporate it in wrestling.

To be fair, I did mix up two different things, he says he gets most of his wrestling knowledge from reading Dave Meltzer, and watching PPV's... whatever that means.

But he is not shy about the analytical side and introducing it to wrestling


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## AEWMoxley (May 26, 2019)

DMD Mofomagic said:


> Ramsey is great. But he still talks too much. Fournette couldn't stay healthy lastly, and Foles is unproven over 16 games.
> 
> They have a great defense, but the Colts defense is full of high end draft picks, including a guy who won defensive rookie of the year. And the Texans have an amazing defense as well, despite losing the honey badger
> 
> ...


New England is still the team to beat in the AFC. No, the Jags are not better than the Patriots.

Cleveland added a bunch of high priced free agents, but there's no reason to fall for the hype yet. Most "dream teams" in the NFL fail, because of a lack of chemistry/scheme fit. 

Pittsburgh missed the playoffs last year and just lost their best WR. The Jaguars have their number, too. They've got a great head to head record vs PIT. It's possible that PIT may finish with a better record (although far from a certainty) but the Jags are a tough match up for them from a personnel and schematic standpoint.

Baltimore has a RB playing at the QB position, who will be even worse this year, because there is now a blueprint on how to stop him.

Indy will be the better regular season team, but I've seen this team, and Luck in particular, fail spectacularly in the playoffs far too many times to take them seriously. 

Houston is one of the most poorly coached teams in the league, and has been for a while. I don't know how Bill O'Brien still has a job in this league.

NE will win the AFCE.

PIT will likely win the AFCN.

KC will win the AFCW.

Indy will win the AFCS.

From there you will have LAC, BAL, CLE, HOU, JAX, and maybe a couple other teams competing for 2 wildcard spots. I've got no faith in BAL going anywhere this season with Lamar Jackson. I'm not not the CLE hype train. Their offense has been bolstered, but their defense is lackluster. LAC will get one wildcard spot. The second wildcard spot will come down to HOU and JAX, and I'm going with JAX here, and it's not even a question in my mind.


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## DMD Mofomagic (Jun 9, 2017)

AEWMoxley said:


> New England is still the team to beat in the AFC. No, the Jags are not better than the Patriots.
> 
> Cleveland added a bunch of high priced free agents, but there's no reason to fall for the hype yet. Most "dream teams" in the NFL fail, because of a lack of chemistry/scheme fit.
> 
> ...


Remind me as we get closer to the season, and I will 100% take that bet from you.

We can discuss wagers later


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## AEWMoxley (May 26, 2019)

DMD Mofomagic said:


> Remind me as we get closer to the season, and I will 100% take that bet from you.
> 
> We can discuss wagers later


I'm down. I'll take any bet which relies on Bill O'Brien failing.


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## RapShepard (Jun 20, 2014)

DMD Mofomagic said:


> Khan is huge into analytics, and wants to incorporate it in wrestling.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Okay that makes more sense. I was so lost on what analytics he was getting from Dave lol


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## dsnotgood (Jun 28, 2011)

They need to keep Crying Manbaby Punk away from any and all wrestling organizations. He is toxic , negative, and overrated.


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## Martyn (Feb 21, 2010)

Of course they dont need him. Theyre red hot and selling out arenas without that overrated, retired wrestler. Really, at this point hes more overrated than the Ultimate Warrior was in the 90s.


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## brewjo32 (Nov 24, 2015)

Martyn said:


> Of course they dont need him. Theyre red hot and selling out arenas without that overrated, retired wrestler. Really, at this point hes more overrated than the Ultimate Warrior was in the 90s.


Selling out arenas does not mean a lot. Most arenas close off the upper sections and reduce their seating capacity for fighting entertainment events. 18,000 seat arenas become 11,000 seat places; Sears Center in Chicago, Moda Center in Portland, etc. Its great they are selling lots of tickets and all but its not like they are filling 20,000 seats. Not to mention most events give away between 3-10% of their tickets.


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## Martyn (Feb 21, 2010)

In this time and age, selling out big arenas or filling over 10,000 seats is very rare, if youre not AEW or New Japan. WWE seems to be doing that only during their WM weekend these days. Thats a big success and it shouldnt be denied, therefore, I dont think they have to rely on some retired guys from the past as much as other people would want them to. Theyre perfectly fine on their own and the demand translated to numbers is proving it.


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## Ray McCarthy (Jun 9, 2018)

I agree. AEW doesn’t need Punk at all. I honestly never understood the love for the self professed ‘best in the world’ - to me, he was always just a glorified mid-carder who rode his minor league indie credibility as far as it could take him with the smarks, but couldn’t live up to the hype when they finally gave him the type of main event run that other guys would’ve killed for. AEW is better off without having that crybaby around.


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## thewhitecrow (Aug 3, 2019)

May you marks please back off with this bs. CM Punk still has a good 3 years he could wrestle in his PRIME. And no, he is nowhere near overrated, if anything he was underrated almost his whole career. AEW needs his charisma, mic skills, unique and class one wrestling ability etc. If I was Khan I would literally get inside Punk’s ass as deep as it takes just to make him sign with AEW because after that happens wrestling world will EXPLODE.


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## li/<o (Jan 18, 2009)

I think AEW can live without CM Punk, but CM Punk would elevate AEW. He can easily go for another 5 years. Lets face it Punk would benefit most of it. I know he hates the WWE so he would love to put them on some pressure. To also add you guys know AEW and Punk by all we know they could of already agreed to something, but they are playing us all.


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## headstar (May 16, 2012)

brewjo32 said:


> Selling out arenas does not mean a lot. Most arenas close off the upper sections and reduce their seating capacity for fighting entertainment events. 18,000 seat arenas become 11,000 seat places; Sears Center in Chicago, Moda Center in Portland, etc. *Its great they are selling lots of tickets and all but its not like they are filling 20,000 seats*. Not to mention most events give away between 3-10% of their tickets.


The ticket demand for DON and All Out was much higher than 20,000.


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## Optikk is All Elite (Sep 5, 2007)

brewjo32 said:


> Selling out arenas does not mean a lot. Most arenas close off the upper sections and reduce their seating capacity for fighting entertainment events. 18,000 seat arenas become 11,000 seat places; Sears Center in Chicago, Moda Center in Portland, etc. Its great they are selling lots of tickets and all but its not like they are filling 20,000 seats. Not to mention most events give away between 3-10% of their tickets.


"selling out arenas does not mean a lot"










why are wwe agents underselling this accomplishment?


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## Taroostyles (Apr 1, 2007)

Anyone downplaying the AEW ticket sales is either an apologist or just doesn't wanna admit they were wrong. Plain and simple. 

There hasn't been this kind of demand for a pro wrestling product in a long time, just accept it.


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## thewhitecrow (Aug 3, 2019)

"selling out arenas does not mean a lot"

seriously what the fuck dude. I hope this is just a troll


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## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

Selling out arenas does not mean a lot......

Selling out arenas does not mean a lot...............

Selling out........

.........

You having a giraffe mate?!!


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## AEWMoxley (May 26, 2019)

Taroostyles said:


> Anyone downplaying the AEW ticket sales is either an apologist or just doesn't wanna admit they were wrong. Plain and simple.
> 
> There hasn't been this kind of demand for a pro wrestling product in a long time, just accept it.


We've had a lot of trolls say a bunch of ridiculous shit. Hell, in this very thread, we had a guy downplaying what the Khans have done in two other sports and made some brain dead claim that Tony will get run over and manipulated by the EVPs. This is the kind of imbecility we're dealing with.


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