# Darby Allin Vs. Jimmy Havoc in #1 Contenders Match Announced For Dynamite



## AEWMoxley (May 26, 2019)

Extremely underwhelming.

However, one of these two geeks main eventing Dynamite next week is still going to draw bigger ratings than NXT.


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## LIL' WINNING FOOT (Sep 21, 2004)

Great stuff. Makes sense since Darby has a winning record and Havoc won his match at All Out.

Darby is definitely winning and he has a history with Cody so that will come into play as well.


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## Death Rider (May 18, 2011)

Our boys @Donnie; 

MAKE HIM SUFFER HAVOC


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## Corey (Aug 11, 2006)

Bit of an odd choice but I'll be rooting for Darby all the way.


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## Alright_Mate (Jul 21, 2014)

Havoc :meh

Hopefully Darby wins this, despite being only 5ft8 he is the type of wrestler that can engage the audience and tv viewers.


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## EmbassyForever (Dec 29, 2011)

the win-lose record needs to be explained, going by that logic it's should be PAC in that position.

but other than that the match should be intense and very different from the rest of the card. the show looks stacked.


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## CRCC (Sep 25, 2017)

If the record stuff is to be believed, PAC makes more sense.


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## Jedah (Jul 16, 2017)

PAC does make more sense but it's too early. That isn't a match you throw away on a random TV show. That's where win/loss records can make for some confusion.

But Darby is a real interesting character so it's a good chance for him to get some shine in a main event.


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## EmbassyForever (Dec 29, 2011)

Jericho/Darby should be cool, the storytelling will be off the charts. Darby is a fantastic underdog, check out his matches with Walter (and Cody, of course)


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## TD Stinger (May 9, 2012)

Surprised PAC isn't in this but then again I don't even know if he was available for this show or what schedule he's doing.

Seems like an odd match up but based off wins and losses, Havoc, Allin, MJF, and PAC seemed like the only candidates. So it does make some sense. As much as it can with them only having 5 shows so far.

I wonder if this will be a "hardcore" style match or more of a regular wrestling match.


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## ReekOfAwesomenesss (Apr 6, 2012)

Yeah PAC makes more sense since his victories were against better opponents if we go by the UFC style ranking but the business is completely different. You can't book your biggest matches on a free TV every single week.


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## Vic (Jan 2, 2010)

This is fine, people are saying Pac, but remember he just returned to the company and has thus far only won two matches.


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## Darkest Lariat (Jun 12, 2013)

I'm stoked to see this match live. Now all I need is Lucha Bros and I'll be happy.

I just found this vid of Darby skating. I skated for years myself. That guy gives no fucks about getting injured. It's pretty insane some of this.


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## LIL' WINNING FOOT (Sep 21, 2004)

PAC is likely unavailable or otherwise he would have taken Havoc's spot against Darby.

It should be a good match and I expect Darby to get the win and challenge Jericho for the title to where it will be a banger.


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## birthday_massacre (Jan 30, 2013)

AEWMoxley said:


> Extremely underwhelming.
> 
> However, one of these two geeks main eventing Dynamite next week is still going to draw bigger ratings than NXT.


they both have good records, that is what they should be doing and sure you can make a case for Pac but you dont want to give away PPV matches on free tv


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## PresidentGasman (Mar 25, 2019)

Darby wins but Jericho finds a way to retain next week then retains against Cody, Jericho will probably have 2 successful title defenses before dropping it to Omega.


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## Aedubya (Jul 12, 2019)

PresidentGasman said:


> Darby wins but Jericho finds a way to retain next week then retains against Cody, Jericho will probably have 2 successful title defenses before dropping it to Omega.


Jericho will be champ for a while yet

At the very least until the 'Rager at Sea' Cruise event at the end of January


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## birthday_massacre (Jan 30, 2013)

PresidentGasman said:


> Darby wins but Jericho finds a way to retain next week then retains against Cody, Jericho will probably have 2 successful title defenses before dropping it to Omega.


Yup they need to give Omega a good comeback story before beating Jericho. Jericho will probably be champion unitl 2020

I really hope AEW gives nice long tile reigns.


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## Joe Gill (Jun 29, 2019)

havoc better win.... would be ridiculous to see some 5'7 dude getting the first shot at the title on tv.
i guess they are saving pac for a ppv.

Jericho vs Moxley
Jericho vs Page
Jericho vs Rhodes
Jericho vs Pac
Jericho vs Moxley

these will be the first 5 ppv main events... looks like they will milk jericho before he drops the belt to moxley.


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## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

Pac won two matches against two people coming off losses - one of which he was a sub

He also no-showed DoN which will (kayfabe) enter into it

Darby is 1-1-1 and if he beats Havoc, he’ll be 2-1-1 with longer tenure - so, that makes sense over Pac

Havoc beat 2 other guys - he’s 1-0-2 I think / so he’ll be 2-0-2 - not the best, but at least on par with Pac

IMO, (kayfabe) the no-show should cost Pac

Serious though- no way you give away Pac / Jericho for free on tv

And no way do you have Pac lose at this point against anybody else


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## EmbassyForever (Dec 29, 2011)

Darkest Lariat said:


> I'm stoked to see this match live. Now all I need is Lucha Bros and I'll be happy.
> 
> I just found this vid of Darby skating. I skated for years myself. That guy gives no fucks about getting injured. It's pretty insane some of this.


yeah he's fucking nuts. saw highlights from his match with Janela in PWG, jesus fucking christ some bumps were insanely dangerous.
that's too bad cause i think he can have huge success in AEW and wrestling in general. hopefully he'll be around when he's 30 years old...


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## Prosper (Mar 25, 2015)

Darby Allin vs Jericho is gonna be dope. Hopefully that is actually the match and not Havoc. I hate Jimmy Havoc honestly. I think he is very untalented and I wish they didn't sign him.


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## Swan-San (May 25, 2019)

I dont understand how anyone can be a fan of havok. does that mean if i grab a stapler and dress gothic youll be my fan too


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## Necrolust (Mar 4, 2015)

I don’t get the affection for Havoc, sadly. On paper I should be high on him, as I think his gimmick and looks are super cool. Maybe some that has more knowledge of this guy, can point me to some essential matches to watch with Havoc? Would appreciate it.

Hope Darby wins, he clicked for me from first appearance.


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## Buhalovski (Jul 24, 2015)

Doesnt seem like wins and loses matter then.



Necrolust said:


> I don’t get the affection for Havoc, sadly. On paper I should be high on him, as I think his gimmick and looks are super cool. Maybe some that has more knowledge of this guy, can point me to some essential matches to watch with Havoc? Would appreciate it.
> 
> Hope Darby wins, he clicked for me from first appearance.


You should watch his feud with Ospreay from PROGRESS, tons of stuff in youtube.


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## Undertaker23RKO (Jun 11, 2011)

They should better clarify the wins/losses matter thing then. This is confusing.


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## Reggie Dunlop (Nov 2, 2015)

prosperwithdeen said:


> Darby Allin vs Jericho is gonna be dope. Hopefully that is actually the match and not Havoc. I hate Jimmy Havoc honestly. I think he is very untalented and I wish they didn't sign him.


Havoc is actually pretty decent. They just push his hardcore stuff more so you don’t really see his ability. He could also stand to put a little bulk on those spaghetti arms — that more than anything just doesn’t live up to his ring gear or his supposed bad-ass persona. Not the worst signing in my humble opinion — he does bring something a little different to the product that I otherwise wouldn’t have seen. His look just needs to be a bit more imposing. 

Otherwise, he is one sick fuck if you’re into that kind of match.

As for wins and losses, they said they matter, but they didn’t say they mean everything. Look at wins and losses in MMA — ranking system is anything but absolute, and definitely not 100% locked to wins and losses.


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## Masked Legend (Jul 13, 2012)

Darkest Lariat said:


> I'm stoked to see this match live. Now all I need is Lucha Bros and I'll be happy.
> 
> I just found this vid of Darby skating. I skated for years myself. That guy gives no fucks about getting injured. It's pretty insane some of this.


Nice to hear he also has great taste in music... silly girl by the descendants is one of my all time favorite songs


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## patpat (Feb 17, 2019)

@radshepard is gonna cream himself if darby wins lol


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## patpat (Feb 17, 2019)

Darkest Lariat said:


> I'm stoked to see this match live. Now all I need is Lucha Bros and I'll be happy.
> 
> I just found this vid of Darby skating. I skated for years myself. That guy gives no fucks about getting injured. It's pretty insane some of this.


 mann darby allin so so fucking cool tho lol


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## Corey (Aug 11, 2006)

Joe Gill said:


> havoc better win.... would be ridiculous to see some 5'7 dude getting the first shot at the title on tv.
> i guess they are saving pac for a ppv.
> 
> Jericho vs Moxley
> ...


Hey man I just wanna let you know that PAC is 5'8".



Swan-San said:


> I dont understand how anyone can be a fan of havok. does that mean if i grab a stapler and dress gothic youll be my fan too


Havoc*


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## Reggie Dunlop (Nov 2, 2015)

So who's gonna lose their shit if Havoc ends up going over???? :lol

It could happen!


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## birthday_massacre (Jan 30, 2013)

Undertaker23RKO said:


> They should better clarify the wins/losses matter thing then. This is confusing.


How is it confusing.

Do you understand how wins and losses matter in college football or even boxing or MMA?


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## Hangman (Feb 3, 2017)

Can they chuck in MJF or Dustin?

You want another name in there.


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## Reggie Dunlop (Nov 2, 2015)

birthday_massacre said:


> How is it confusing.
> 
> Do you understand how wins and losses matter in college football or even boxing or MMA?


Exactly. And as I was saying earlier, from f4online:


> Cody responded to a tweet that asked why Allin and Havoc are the wrestlers in the number one contender's match: "Quality of wins plays a factor. Not unlike college football. Jimmy beat 2 other major players in the @CrackerBarrel Clash and... Darby went the distance with me and defeated a legend in Cima. (That match to be featured on 'AEW: DARK' this Tuesday. Hosted by @tonyschiavone24)"


Matches now have meaning, but there’s enough flexibility built in to keep people guessing. Personally, I like that. I don’t want to know everywhere they’re going with every wrestler and every storyline ahead of time. I don’t want AEW painting themselves into a booking corner where there’s only one logical outcome. I really like where they’re going here.


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## RelivingTheShadow (Apr 25, 2013)

My counter to people saying PAC should be in the #1 contenders match, yes he's 2-0, but his victory against Page came thanks to a low blow. It's a tainted victory, and in the UFC, we've seen guys on the cusp of a title shot get a tainted victory and not get a title shot because of it, hell, we've seen on numerous occasions the rightful #1 contender being passed over just because of logistical reasons.

I hope they explain something on TV, but it's still relatively logical, Darby picked up a win against CIMA on Dark, fought Cody, who is the #1 contender to a draw, and didn't get pinned in his lone singles loss, Havoc won a match that Darby was involved in, but didn't pin Darby. 

Hope they explain something on TV, but fuck, I'll take this any day of the week over Samoa Joe losing a match clean for the mid card title and getting a world title shot and The Miz getting destroyed in the opening round of the King of the Ring Tournament to be awarded an IC title match, Kevin Owens not having a singles match on TV for months and getting a world title match etc. etc.


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## Death Rider (May 18, 2011)

Necrolust said:


> I don’t get the affection for Havoc, sadly. On paper I should be high on him, as I think his gimmick and looks are super cool. Maybe some that has more knowledge of this guy, can point me to some essential matches to watch with Havoc? Would appreciate it.
> 
> Hope Darby wins, he clicked for me from first appearance.


His feud with ospreay is peak havoc. Heck his whole run as champion. Great promos too. Also he had a great hardcore match with filthy tom Lawler in mlw. Whilst he is mostly a death match guy, he can wrestle and is great on the mic as a heel (decent face in the right spot too).


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## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

The Inbred Goatman said:


> My counter to people saying PAC should be in the #1 contenders match, yes he's 2-0, but his victory against Page came thanks to a low blow. It's a tainted victory, and in the UFC, we've seen guys on the cusp of a title shot get a tainted victory and not get a title shot because of it, hell, we've seen on numerous occasions the rightful #1 contender being passed over just because of logistical reasons.
> 
> I hope they explain something on TV, but it's still relatively logical, Darby picked up a win against CIMA on Dark, fought Cody, who is the #1 contender to a draw, and didn't get pinned in his lone singles loss, Havoc won a match that Darby was involved in, but didn't pin Darby.
> 
> Hope they explain something on TV, but fuck, I'll take this any day of the week over Samoa Joe losing a match clean for the mid card title and getting a world title shot and The Miz getting destroyed in the opening round of the King of the Ring Tournament to be awarded an IC title match, Kevin Owens not having a singles match on TV for months and getting a world title match etc. etc.


Also, Pac no-showed DoN - which should play a massive kayfabe role


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## RKing85 (Mar 22, 2010)

I know they need somebody not top top level for Jericho to beat......but they are really stretching trying to justify these two guys being in a number one contenders match.


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## shandcraig (Mar 23, 2008)

This is good just to show case them and try to get them over.But they need to get that TV belt made so we can have a good classic belt for mid carders to fight over


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## RapShepard (Jun 20, 2014)

patpat said:


> @radshepard is gonna cream himself if darby wins lol


If it was Janela maybe lol, but Darby is pretty cool too.


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## Taroostyles (Apr 1, 2007)

Yeah its becoming apparent quickly that a mid card title will be necessary. They just have too many guys to showcase and while someone like Darby has crazy potential, I'm not totally sure he should be in world title matches just yet. Him and Jericho will have a fantastic match though. 

Janela may get involved here as well.


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## V-Trigger (Jul 6, 2016)

CRCC said:


> If the record stuff is to be believed, PAC makes more sense.


You don't put PAC on a title match on TV.


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## KennyOmegaa (Sep 25, 2019)

Reggie Dunlop said:


> Exactly. And as I was saying earlier, from f4online:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Exactly. What if a lower card guy had a good record, booking them in main events strictly on their record would be silly and devalue the championship. Hence, quality of wins.

Story always comes first. I think the main point of wins/losses inclusion is nobody will be rewarded title shots after going on losing streaks. Opportunities need to be earned, etc


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## imthegame19 (Oct 12, 2008)

LifeInCattleClass said:


> Also, Pac no-showed DoN - which should play a massive kayfabe role


Yeah Pac not getting title shot already after he just returned to the company makes sense. Keep in mind Pac was advertised for for Double or Nothing and 6 man tag at Fyter Fest. So even though Pac has two impressive wins. The company can say we want to make sure Pac is going to stick around this time before we start giving him title shots.


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## Corey (Aug 11, 2006)

I'll tell ya one thing, I don't envy the bookers here with every match mattering and counting towards the records. Makes things very very difficult I imagine.


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## imthegame19 (Oct 12, 2008)

RKing85 said:


> I know they need somebody not top top level for Jericho to beat......but they are really stretching trying to justify these two guys being in a number one contenders match.


Omega, Page, Dustin Rhodes, Kip Sabian, Janela, Guvevara, Spears, Daniels, Cutler, Peter Avalon and Cima all have one or more loss in singles matches. 


Darby Allin has singles win over Cima and went to draw with current number one contender Cody. While Havoc won the 3 way at All Out that featured Darby Allin. Neither guy has singles loss.


Other then that Moxley 1-0 but doesn't get full credit because it was unsacation match. MJF is 1-0 but win came vs weak opponent in Brandon Cutler. While Sonny Kiss is also 1-0 but win also came against weak opponent in Peter Avalon. 


Now Pac has the most impressive 2-0 record. But due to him ditching the company for Double or Nothing and Fyter Fest. You can justify it disqualifying him from title shots until he proves had gonna stay with the company. So it's not perfect system but actually somewhat works.


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## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

Corey said:


> I'll tell ya one thing, I don't envy the bookers here with every match mattering and counting towards the records. Makes things very very difficult I imagine.


I kinda like it - brings an extra level of fandom and theory

I’m actually looking up match results in order to make my point


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## Reggie Dunlop (Nov 2, 2015)

Corey said:


> I'll tell ya one thing, I don't envy the bookers here with every match mattering and counting towards the records. Makes things very very difficult I imagine.


I don’t think it’s that bad, actually. If you set out with that approach in mind from the get-go, title shots are driven by wins and losses instead of idiotic, nonsensical story lines that weaken your title holder and dilute the value of the titles themselves. It’s just a different kind of storytelling, interwoven with background stories and angles. It’s just going to require some consistency and continuity, something that other promotion is utterly incapable of. AEW has some pretty good wrestling minds on the job here — I have faith they’ll pull it off. I really can’t wait to see how it all plays out.


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## Corey (Aug 11, 2006)

LifeInCattleClass said:


> I kinda like it - brings an extra level of fandom and theory
> 
> I’m actually looking up match results in order to make my point


Oh hell yeah it's awesome that all the matches mean something but when this things gets rolling in a few more weeks it's gonna be a headache trying to keep up with all the records.  I'll just enjoy the ride and let them do their jobs!


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## Saintpat (Dec 18, 2013)

I guess I’m in the minority wanting some big matches on TV.


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## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

Saintpat said:


> I guess I’m in the minority wanting some big matches on TV.


There will be big matches - has to be with their PPV schedule

But shoehorning Pac in there right now doesn’t do anybody any favours


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## Saintpat (Dec 18, 2013)

LifeInCattleClass said:


> There will be big matches - has to be with their PPV schedule
> 
> But shoehorning Pac in there right now doesn’t do anybody any favours


I agree on Pac (for now).

But they’ll lose me if everything between PPVs is filler and I only get to see the good stuff for $200 a year.


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## TwistedLogic (Feb 17, 2013)

I bet this match surprises and goes over with the casual audiences tuning in. This is the kind of stuff people who haven't watched wrestling in a long time are probably gonna relate to. People who seem to have characters and do some crazy shit in the ring.


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## BigCy (Nov 10, 2012)

I get what they're trying to do but Cody should have said something else IMO. Even with the excuse he gave it still makes more sense to give PAC the shot based on his win over Page who was in a vacant World Title Match and a win over Omega who is "the best bout machine." Oh well, I know they're just trying to give Jeric-ho a filler defense before a possible PPV program with PAC.


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## NXT Only (Apr 3, 2016)

I rather not have TV title defenses but I understand having to build intriguing cards early on.


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## imthegame19 (Oct 12, 2008)

Darby Allin is going to win. He's 26 and has potential. They already have him spotlight in big match with Cody at Fyter Fest. So they will add to that with big match with Jericho. Cody has said a few times that they plan to put young talent in big competitive matches with top guys to build them up. We already saw Guvevera have competitive match with Cody and join Jericho faction. That got eyes on him and I think Darby will get that push the next two weeks. Plus Darby is perfect underdog baby face to get cheers against Jericho in Philly. I can see Darby taking big bump in them match at some point.


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## TwistedLogic (Feb 17, 2013)

NXT Only said:


> I rather not have TV title defenses but I understand having to build intriguing cards early on.


Doesn't have anything to do with building intriguing cards. They said from the start they would regularly have titles defended on TV because they're only going to have four PPVs a year.


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## Cult03 (Oct 31, 2016)

This is a for a shot at the title? This company can do no wrong in some peoples eyes. Let them open the show but don't let the two 70kg emo kids get anywhere near that immaculate title. This is akin to WWE letting Noam Dar and Epico wrestle for a shot at the WWE title. What a joke..


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## V-Trigger (Jul 6, 2016)




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## RainmakerV2 (Nov 8, 2017)

That'll put butts in the seats.


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## RBrooks (Oct 18, 2013)

Didn't they say they don't want to have #1 contenders matches, or it was just a rumor? I'm glad they have them, though, they are needed. 

Anyway, not much excitement here for my enjoyment, but I have no problem with it. Darby is probably getting the win here and will get his exposure and showcase against Jericho before being beaten. 



Jedah said:


> PAC does make more sense but it's too early. That isn't a match you throw away on a random TV show. That's where win/loss records can make for some confusion.
> 
> But Darby is a real interesting character so it's a good chance for him to get some shine in a main event.


That's the problem, they want to keep someone strong, but it's "too early" or "not a good time" for them to challenge for the belt, so someone else challenging for the title makes less sense. It really doesn't make much sense to have Havoc vs Darby over, say Pac vs MJF for that spot. We know why they won't do it, but strictly from the "sports" side of things it doesn't make sense. I hope they can find ways around these rules.


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## DGenerationMC (Jan 30, 2011)

Very interested to see if they go a non-hardcore route in the match. I think they can pull off something good.


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## V-Trigger (Jul 6, 2016)

RainmakerV2 said:


> That'll put butts in the seats.


Too bad that the show is already sold out :LOL



RBrooks said:


> Didn't they say they don't want to have #1 contenders matches, or it was just a rumor? I'm glad they have them, though, they are needed.
> 
> Anyway, not much excitement here for my enjoyment, but I have no problem with it. Darby is probably getting the win here and will get his exposure and showcase against Jericho before being beaten.
> 
> ...


Makes sense if you judge it like the UFC does. Not always the 1st contender gets the title match. They could always say that PAC didn't want to take the match or whatever excuse to cover it.


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## Cult03 (Oct 31, 2016)

V-Trigger said:


> Too bad the show is already sold out :LOL


That's the same argument people use for WWE doing whatever they want though. Seems these companies have more in common than one would think.


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## RainmakerV2 (Nov 8, 2017)

V-Trigger said:


> Too bad the show is already sold out :LOL


They have serious momentum right now and these two nerds are who you introduce to the world title picture? They're fine for cutting themselves and falling on shit if thats what you want..But world title shot at a serious major company? Its ridiculous. Fuck off.


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## RBrooks (Oct 18, 2013)

People bitching too much need to relax. Darby Allin is their Jeff Hardy, so it makes sense they'd push him for a little bit, because he could grab the attention of those teenage emo-girls, so it doesn't surprise me. They won't put him in main events, they'd just feed him to Jericho on free tv, so what's exactly the problem here? 

Do you remember how hard WWE pushed Jeff Hardy at times? And he's much worse than Allin.


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## V-Trigger (Jul 6, 2016)

RainmakerV2 said:


> They have serious momentum right now and these two nerds are who you introduce to the world title picture? They're fine for cutting themselves and falling on shit if thats what you want..But world title shot at a serious major company? Its ridiculous. Fuck off.


Darby is over as fuck with the AEW audience (the one that matters) and has a 1-1-1 record so that throws your argument to the mud from the start.



Cult03 said:


> That's the same argument people use for WWE doing whatever they want though. Seems these companies have more in common than one would think.


You are the AEWWE fan wanting them to operate like your favorite promotion buddy. Don't know what you are talking about.


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## Cult03 (Oct 31, 2016)

RBrooks said:


> People bitching too much need to relax. Darby Allin is their Jeff Hardy, so it makes sense they'd push him for a little bit, because he could grab the attention of those teenage emo-girls, so it doesn't surprise me. They won't put him in main events, they'd just feed him to Jericho on free tv, so what's exactly the problem here?
> 
> Do you remember how hard WWE pushed Jeff Hardy at times? And he's much worse than Allin.


Do you remember what had to happen for Hardy to get those pushes though? He had to put himself over in matches so the crowd gave a fuck about who he was. The emo girls these days would prefer someone like Luchasaurus without the mask, it's not 2006 anymore.


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## RainmakerV2 (Nov 8, 2017)

V-Trigger said:


> Darby is over as fuck with a 1-1-1 record so that throws your argument to the mud from the start.
> 
> 
> You are the AEWWE fan wanting them to operate like your favorite promotion buddy. Don't know what you are talking about.


Hes over because hes short and falls on shit. Thats what people want to see. Who the FUCK wants to see him fight Jericho for the world title? Are you trolling me? Seriously? This is where this whole wins and losses thing gets dumb. Because you won a cracker barrel gimmick match or steal a pin in an 8 man you get a world title shot? This would be like WWE putting Spike Dudley up against prime Reign of Terror HHH for the world title. Fucking stupid. I want AEW to succeed as much as anyone, but some of you will just defend everything they do without any shame. Jesus.


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## Cult03 (Oct 31, 2016)

V-Trigger said:


> Darby is over as fuck with a 1-1-1 record so that throws your argument to the mud from the start.
> 
> 
> You are the AEWWE fan wanting them to operate like your favorite promotion buddy. Don't know what you are talking about.


You're actually the worst type of person to debate with. All assumptions. I've hated what I have seen from the WWE for years now, I don't have the network and I watch everything for free. I'm hardly a WWE fan for enjoying some aspects and NXT and not shitting on everything constantly. I just don't enjoy people complaining on here without giving examples of what they would do instead, so I call them out for being negative fuckwits. AEW is doing a lot of good, but the fans are absolutely killing the product for me. The fact that they can say with a straight face that Allin VS Havoc for a title shot is a good thing is proof that the AEW fans are exactly what they've been giving anyone who resembles a WWE fan shit for.

Marks. And dishonest ones at that. 

This company isn't doing anything that differently to NXT, ROH or NJPW. How are they changing the world? By putting on good matches? NXT was already doing that. Not having gimmicks? NJPW was already doing that. They've also killed ROH, which is something people would want blood for if WWE did it. AEW is probably my favourite company at the moment. Jericho is my favourite wrestler ever. 

AEW is not immune to criticism.


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## RBrooks (Oct 18, 2013)

Cult03 said:


> The emo girls these days would prefer someone like Luchasaurus without the mask, it's not 2006 anymore.


Well of course I don't know that for a fact, because I don't live in USA and don't know what emo girls prefer these days :lol I just try to rationalize the thought process. I thought Darby was pretty over with the crowd on those previous shows. So he probably has a target audience. It's a risk of course, who knows how many people will turn the tv off when they see him. 

You see, to me the only thing that matters is who is going to have a program for the title. This is not a program. This is a one-off. Jericho will sell for him for a bit and then kill him. I can't bitch about that. 



> Do you remember what had to happen for Hardy to get those pushes though? He had to put himself over in matches so the crowd gave a fuck about who he was.


Isn't this how it usually works for everybody? I mean, besides giving people promo time. 

Let's be real. Whoever got this spot would be a nobody for the TNT audience, except for probably Moxley, and that would've been a HUGE mistake. It doesn't matter right now.


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## V-Trigger (Jul 6, 2016)

RainmakerV2 said:


> Hes over because hes short and falls on shit. Thats what people want to see.


He was already over before having the cracker barrel match.



RainmakerV2 said:


> This is where this whole wins and losses thing gets dumb. Because you won a cracker barrel gimmick match or steal a pin in an 8 man you get a world title shot?


1-1-1 with a 2-1-1 if he beats Havoc.

New Japan builds title matches after a guy points at others belt. We are not at that level yet.




RainmakerV2 said:


> This would be like WWE putting Spike Dudley up against prime Reign of Terror HHH for the world title. Fucking stupid.


Pretty sure WWE fans compare him to Jeff Hardy more than Spike Dudley, but that's your point of view.



RainmakerV2 said:


> I want AEW to succeed as much as anyone, but some of you will just defend everything they do without any shame.Jesus.


No you don't. It's okay though, not everyone likes everything.



RainmakerV2 said:


> some of you will just defend everything they do without any shame.Jesus.


Not true. I have been critical about things that I don't like like building n1 contenders with a battle royale or the Brandi treatment. But guess what, I give them the benefit of the doubt because they haven't jerked me around for 10 years like the other company before I stopped watching.


----------



## V-Trigger (Jul 6, 2016)

Cult03 said:


> You're actually the worst type of person to debate with. All assumptions. I've hated what I have seen from the WWE for years now, I don't have the network and I watch everything for free. I'm hardly a WWE fan for enjoying some aspects and NXT and not shitting on everything constantly. I just don't enjoy people complaining on here without giving examples of what they would do instead, so I call them out for being negative fuckwits. AEW is doing a lot of good, but the fans are absolutely killing the product for me. The fact that they can say with a straight face that Allin VS Havoc for a title shot is a good thing is proof that the AEW fans are exactly what they've been giving anyone who resembles a WWE fan shit for.
> 
> Marks. And dishonest ones at that.
> 
> ...


Well, you just exposed yourself as a troll with that "The fans are killing the company for me". To the list.


----------



## Cult03 (Oct 31, 2016)

V-Trigger said:


> Well, you just exposed yourself as a troll with that "The fans are killing the company for me". To the list.


Mate, you don't even bother responding to the criticism with anything worthwhile. We both know who is trolling here and it's not me. Hence my frustration with those hyping everything AEW does no matter how terrible it is. I want to enjoy wrestling and have good conversations about it, but if I can't criticize things that deserve criticism then why bother with a forum? I'm not even saying this will be a bad match. Simply that it's dumb for it to be a number one contender match. Can you dispute that? Or are you going to try continue winning internet arguments by calling me a WWE troll instead of responding to the points I am making?


----------



## Cult03 (Oct 31, 2016)

RBrooks said:


> Well of course I don't know that for a fact, because I don't live in USA and don't know what emo girls prefer these days :lol I just try to rationalize the thought process. I thought Darby was pretty over with the crowd on those previous shows. So he probably has a target audience. It's a risk of course, who knows how many people will turn the tv off when they see him.
> 
> You see, to me the only thing that matters is who is going to have a program for the title. This is not a program. This is a one-off. Jericho will sell for him for a bit and then kill him. I can't bitch about that.
> 
> ...


Allin seems like a cool guy that could get over eventually, don't get me wrong. But having him in a feud for the title this soon makes your title look worthless. Of course, it does if your fans are honest with themselves. Fans don't turn off their TV when they're not interested. They look at their phone. So there's no legitimate way to tell when nobody cares about someone. He wasn't over against Cody, him falling off shit is over (As is when anyone falls off something). He has 26k twitter followers. Havoc is a joke though, he will never be over with anyone other than the CZW Death Match crowd. 

They don't even need to have a contender at the moment while Jericho is feuding with The Elite. Let Jericho wrestle those guys every week until one of them beats him and earns a shot.

And yes, that is exactly how it always works. Hence why this is a stupid decision.


----------



## RainmakerV2 (Nov 8, 2017)

LifeInCattleClass said:


> Pac won two matches against two people coming off losses - one of which he was a sub
> 
> He also no-showed DoN which will (kayfabe) enter into it
> 
> ...





V-Trigger said:


> He was already over before having the cracker barrel match.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Because I dont think one of these two geeks should be in the world title picture I dont want AEW to succeed? You guys sound just like the WWE marks you act like you despise.

Lets paint a picture here. Lets say Im an older wrestling fan who stopped watching WWE. I hear AEW hit a big rating Wednesday. I look at their roster..they got Mox, Omega, Jericho, Swagger, Cody, etc. Cool, Im in. I tune in Wednesday at 8 and I see THESE TWO fighting for a world title shot? ......WHAT. Its an optics thing. It matters. What is even the point of this? Why does Jericho need to kill Darby Allin in a title match? Cody likes him, I know, and I have no problem throwing one of your boys a bone, but you do that stuff when you're an established company who can afford to do what you want. NOT YOUR SECOND SHOW. These guys weren't even on the first fucking show. This is stupid and pointless.

See this is where we disconnect. Do you want AEW to be for YOU, or do you want it to actually appeal to the masses and one day take a real swing at the WWE. Because guys like this fighting for the world title on your second show is not how you do that. Oh sure, WF posters who are subscribed to 3 different wrestling platforms will love it and get a boner that guys theyve watched online are getting their chance at the big time! Yay! Fuck that. Who do you want them appealing to? You're gonna be there anyway.


----------



## CenaBoy4Life (Jul 31, 2013)

they really need a midcard title for these geeks and cody


----------



## RainmakerV2 (Nov 8, 2017)

CenaBoy4Life said:


> they really need a midcard title for these geeks and cody


Exactly. Tell me these two are fighting for inaugural hardcore title or TV title and I got no problem. Im in. World title? Fuck off mate.


----------



## V-Trigger (Jul 6, 2016)

RainmakerV2 said:


> Because I dont think one of these two geeks should be in the world title picture I dont want AEW to succeed? You guys sound just like the WWE marks you act like you despise.
> 
> Lets paint a picture here. Lets say Im an older wrestling fan who stopped watching WWE. I hear AEW hit a big rating Wednesday. I look at their roster..they got Mox, Omega, Jericho, Swagger, Cody, etc. Cool, Im in. I tune in Wednesday at 8 and I see THESE TWO fighting for a world title shot? ......WHAT. Its an optics thing. It matters. What is even the point of this? Why does Jericho need to kill Darby Allin in a title match? Cody likes him, I know, and I have no problem throwing one of your boys a bone, but you do that stuff when you're an established company who can afford to do what you want. NOT YOUR SECOND SHOW. These guys weren't even on the first fucking show. This is stupid and pointless.
> 
> See this is where we disconnect. Do you want AEW to be for YOU, or do you want it to actually appeal to the masses and one day take a real swing at the WWE. Because guys like this fighting for the world title on your second show is not how you do that. Oh sure, WF posters who are subscribed to 3 different wrestling platforms will love it and get a boner that guys theyve watched online are getting their chance at the big time! Yay! Fuck that. Who do you want them appealing to? You're gonna be there anyway.


1. AEW is a TV company. Not a live ticket company like NJPW. They need to save matches for special ocasions. Darby/Havoc vs Jericho isn't a big match. Cody vs Jericho is.

2. Jericho is the draw in the title scene no need to add another known face that gains nothing from the exposure. Save that for the big matches like I mentioned above.

3. Darby was on the first show and he beat CIMA on AEW Dark that is going to debut today.

4.How do you want them to develop characters and build stars if you don't give them a platform to shine?

5. AEW isn't booking for me or you. That's why they do things this way. Because they have a long term plan that we don't know yet.


----------



## CenaBoy4Life (Jul 31, 2013)

RainmakerV2 said:


> Exactly. Tell me these two are fighting for inaugural hardcore title or TV title and I got no problem. Im in. World title? Fuck off mate.


And it will let them have time to improve hopefully..

I dont understand why they haven't announced a mid card title. like they just got a monumental tv deal. introduce a tv TNT championship.


----------



## RainmakerV2 (Nov 8, 2017)

V-Trigger said:


> 1. AEW is a TV company. Not a live ticket company like NJPW. They need to save matches for special ocasions. Darby/Havoc vs Jericho isn't a big match. Cody vs Jericho is.
> 
> 2. Jericho is the draw in the title scene no need to add another known face that gains nothing from the exposure. Save that for the big matches like I mentioned above.
> 
> ...


Whatever dude. Were just gonna go in circles. AEW could put fucking Glacier in the title picture and you would defend it and say people who dont like it are just AEW haters. It is what it is.


----------



## V-Trigger (Jul 6, 2016)

RainmakerV2 said:


> Whatever dude. Were just gonna go in circles. AEW could put fucking Glacier in the title picture and you would defend it and say people who dont like it are just AEW haters. It is what it is.


That's not true, they have done things that I personally don't like. But I give them the benefit of the doubt.


----------



## Death Rider (May 18, 2011)

RainmakerV2 said:


> LifeInCattleClass said:
> 
> 
> > Pac won two matches against two people coming off losses - one of which he was a sub
> ...


I want them to put on a product that is good to watch and since jimmy havoc is a great wrestler and promo, I am ok with him getting a chance. As long as they put on a tv show I like i don't care about beating wwe. If you want to watch a show aimed at casuals go watch the cuck shit and that god awful hell in a cell main event that wwe put out.



Cult03 said:


> V-Trigger said:
> 
> 
> > Darby is over as fuck with a 1-1-1 record so that throws your argument to the mud from the start.
> ...


Oh shut the fuck up. It is called different tastes. Havoc has proved in different promotions to be a great heel and put on great matches. Darby allin is over with the crowd and also fun to watch whilst having charisma. It is for a title shot on tv, probs to put allin over in defeat. It is not building to a feud for the title so not sure where you got that idea from. If you don't like it go make a coffee or something during it idc.


----------



## RainmakerV2 (Nov 8, 2017)

V-Trigger said:


> That's not true, they have done things that I personally don't like. But I give them the benefit of the doubt.


I thought they had the best show out of all 4 last week. Do you know why? It felt legit. It felt big. The guys they presented look like stars. Ohhh. But i should have known better. The trash indy outlaw bullshit is coming. They can't help themselves. Havoc and The Dark Order and The best friends, well they're gay but not really, Sonny Kiss, oh and Im sure Mr. Cassidy and the Librarians will make an appearance soon enough. Maybe Im wrong. I doubt it. Oh, and I didnt include Darby in that list because there IS a spot for a guy like him. Just not fighting for a world title shot in your second fucking show.


----------



## Best Bout Machine (Jan 24, 2009)

Hopefully Darby Allin wins. This should be a good match.


----------



## Mateus Tunes (Sep 13, 2016)

Good matchup.
I'm a Darby Allin fan.


----------



## CRCC (Sep 25, 2017)

V-Trigger said:


> You don't put PAC on a title match on TV.


I know, I wouldn't either.

But you sell the record being worth something or not. Right now they're contradicting themselves.


----------



## LIL' WINNING FOOT (Sep 21, 2004)

CRCC said:


> I know, I wouldn't either.
> 
> But you sell the record being worth something or not. Right now they're contradicting themselves.


How? You don't even know if there is a valid explanation for it. PAC could have been unavailable for the match so Havoc took his spot or PAC got a cheap win that diminishes his undefeated record or he may be PPV number one contender and therefore is exempt from this contendership match.

There can be a plethora of reasons why PAC isn't in this match that makes sense. I'm aware WWE has made a grand effort to think trying new things with logic is "unwarranted" but it works if AEW is consistent with it.

I'm sure the same people would find a way to bitch about PAC being in the match anyways.


----------



## TFA (Aug 12, 2012)

Should be a great match, hoping for a Darby win. Wouldn't mind seeing Darby vs. Jericho and help give him some exposure and hopefully help build a new star.


----------



## looper007 (Dec 20, 2014)

See Darby winning this, and losing to Jericho. And Jericho bringing up Cody couldn't beat Darby but he did.

Should be a great hardcore match though between Darby and Havoc. Be something different that WWE won't offer this week. I think Darby is a potential star, he just has a cool look to him. could be AEW's Jeff Hardy like star.


----------



## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

RainmakerV2 said:


> Because I dont think one of these two geeks should be in the world title picture I dont want AEW to succeed? You guys sound just like the WWE marks you act like you despise.
> 
> Lets paint a picture here. Lets say Im an older wrestling fan who stopped watching WWE. I hear AEW hit a big rating Wednesday. I look at their roster..they got Mox, Omega, Jericho, Swagger, Cody, etc. Cool, Im in. I tune in Wednesday at 8 and I see THESE TWO fighting for a world title shot? ......WHAT. Its an optics thing. It matters. What is even the point of this? Why does Jericho need to kill Darby Allin in a title match? Cody likes him, I know, and I have no problem throwing one of your boys a bone, but you do that stuff when you're an established company who can afford to do what you want. NOT YOUR SECOND SHOW. These guys weren't even on the first fucking show. This is stupid and pointless.
> 
> See this is where we disconnect. Do you want AEW to be for YOU, or do you want it to actually appeal to the masses and one day take a real swing at the WWE. Because guys like this fighting for the world title on your second show is not how you do that. Oh sure, WF posters who are subscribed to 3 different wrestling platforms will love it and get a boner that guys theyve watched online are getting their chance at the big time! Yay! Fuck that. Who do you want them appealing to? You're gonna be there anyway.


Who would you have in the number 1 contender slot and who would you have win and face Jericho next week?


----------



## RainmakerV2 (Nov 8, 2017)

LifeInCattleClass said:


> Who would you have in the number 1 contender slot and who would you have win and face Jericho next week?


What? I wouldn't have a number one contender match or title match AT ALL. Cody is the number one contender. The fuck? What is the point of Jericho beating up on Darby fucking Allin in a world title match? Explain that to me. How does that raise the prestige of the belt at all? Its your second show. Why do you have to have a world title match at all?


----------



## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

RainmakerV2 said:


> What? I wouldn't have a number one contender match or title match AT ALL. Cody is the number one contender. The fuck? What is the point of Jericho beating up on Darby fucking Allin in a world title match? Explain that to me. How does that raise the prestige of the belt at all? Its your second show. Why do you have to have a world title match at all?


They booked themselves into a corner - had to sell tickets in this week without matches being announced - otherwise it will spoil All Out massively

So, the title match was announced - so, keeping in mind this is set - how would you book it?


----------



## RainmakerV2 (Nov 8, 2017)

LifeInCattleClass said:


> They booked themselves into a corner - had to sell tickets in this week without matches being announced - otherwise it will spoil All Out massively
> 
> So, the title match was announced - so, keeping in mind this is set - how would you book it?


What are you talking about? The tickets are sold. They're not booked into any corner. Darby Allin fighting for the world title isn't gonna draw any extra sales even if they weren't. Am I in the twlight zone here? What the hell are you talking about?


----------



## Death Rider (May 18, 2011)

RainmakerV2 said:


> LifeInCattleClass said:
> 
> 
> > They booked themselves into a corner - had to sell tickets in this week without matches being announced - otherwise it will spoil All Out massively
> ...


They advertised a world title match for their third show months ago. Are you saying they should pull a wwe and cancel that?


----------



## RainmakerV2 (Nov 8, 2017)

Death Rider said:


> They advertised a world title match for their third show months ago. Are you saying they should pull a wwe and cancel that?


Im saying they're idiots for doing that in the first place. Why would you do that? No one has a suspension of disbelief Jericho is losing. My God. And if someone DID buy tickets just based off that, you think they're satisfied with Jimmy Havoc or Darby Allin? LMAO


----------



## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

RainmakerV2 said:


> What are you talking about? The tickets are sold. They're not booked into any corner. Darby Allin fighting for the world title isn't gonna draw any extra sales even if they weren't. Am I in the twlight zone here? What the hell are you talking about?


......... stick with me here

The tickets went on sale 2 months ago - in order to put something up there to make it worth buying, they advertised a Championship match

Mainly as they already advertised the womens’ championship match the prior week and the start of the tag tournament for this week

But they could not announce anything else for fear of spoiling All Out

So, to sell tickets they said ‘championship match’ for that show - otherwise sales might be flat - now these people knew they at least were getting a major match

I’m not so sure what is hard to understand about that?

So, its done - what is a better booking route under the current circumstances than they have taken?


----------



## Death Rider (May 18, 2011)

RainmakerV2 said:


> Death Rider said:
> 
> 
> > They advertised a world title match for their third show months ago. Are you saying they should pull a wwe and cancel that?
> ...


Well good to know you speak for every wrestling fan on the planet. If I bought tickets and found out havoc was fighting Jericho i would be. Just cause you hate someone does not mean everyone else does.


----------



## Joe Moore (Dec 11, 2018)

RainmakerV2 said:


> What? I wouldn't have a number one contender match or title match AT ALL. Cody is the number one contender. The fuck? What is the point of Jericho beating up on Darby fucking Allin in a world title match? Explain that to me. How does that raise the prestige of the belt at all? Its your second show. Why do you have to have a world title match at all?



They want to have have that ranking system in AEW, Ws and Ls should matter. So it's a bit like in boxing. Cody is the mandatory challenger for Jericho at Full Gear, but in the interim period, the champion may defend the title against any contender classified within the top ten of AEW's ranking. I like that idea.


----------



## RainmakerV2 (Nov 8, 2017)

Death Rider said:


> Well good to know you speak for every wrestling fan on the planet. If I bought tickets and found out havoc was fighting Jericho i would be. Just cause you hate someone does not mean everyone else does.


So you have promotional posters with guys like Cody, Omega, Hangman Page, Mox, MJF, etc, I buy a ticket for a world title match and I get Darby Allin. Lol. I swear, its just like banging my head against a wall with super AEW marks.


----------



## V-Trigger (Jul 6, 2016)

RainmakerV2 said:


> So you have promotional posters with guys like Cody, Omega, Hangman Page, Mox, MJF, etc, I buy a ticket for a world title match and I get Darby Allin. Lol. I swear, its just like banging my head against a wall with super AEW marks.


I bought tickets for NJPW at MSG expecting Kenny Omega and got Jay fucking White. See how it works?.


----------



## RainmakerV2 (Nov 8, 2017)

V-Trigger said:


> I bought tickets for NJPW at MSG expecting Kenny Omega and got Jay fucking White. See how it works?.


And you would have every right to be pissed. But thats also a japanese company thats been around for 44 years. See the difference? You probably dont. Maybe a company in its third show shouldnt be disappointing people for no reason? Especially in a market like Philly? No?


----------



## patpat (Feb 17, 2019)

Cult03 said:


> RBrooks said:
> 
> 
> > Well of course I don't know that for a fact, because I don't live in USA and don't know what emo girls prefer these days <img src="http://i.imgur.com/EGDmCdR.gif?1?6573" border="0" alt="" title="Laugh" class="inlineimg" /> I just try to rationalize the thought process. I thought Darby was pretty over with the crowd on those previous shows. So he probably has a target audience. It's a risk of course, who knows how many people will turn the tv off when they see him.
> ...


 "feud" no it's not a fucking feud, it's a match. A feud is what cody and Jericho + Mosley and omega are doing now
It's long term with stories,



Also I see we have the "they wont draw casual fans on tv rehhhh" crew out there. How did that work for riho guys? Because I remember people moaning and bitching about how she ismt believable and wouldnt draw on tv. And not only is she fucking over but we have clear and factual evidences that she draws at least for the first night a very specific audience.
I wouldnt go around saying who and what draw casuals because no one knows....


I know for a fact that allin has a very strong cool factor to him and is extremely popular with the crowds. Also let's like wait and see if there isnt an actual explanation for pac ( except for the explanations some already provided here).


----------



## LongPig666 (Mar 27, 2019)

Death Rider said:


> *Oh shut the fuck up.* It is called different tastes. Havoc has proved in different promotions to be a great heel and put on great matches. Darby allin is over with the crowd and also fun to watch whilst having charisma. It is for a title shot on tv, probs to put allin over in defeat. It is not building to a feud for the title so not sure where you got that idea from. If you don't like it go make a coffee or something during it idc.


Well said. I have seen him a few times live and he is a phenomenal wrestler/entertainer. He was in the forefront of the recent rise of British wrestling, he is versatile and can play any role but is easily best as a sicko heel, he can also wrestle and has presence. I hope people who are not familiar with him give him a chance.

Unfortunately you are always going to get some fat patronizing 50 year old, red faced, angry Attitude Era prick trying to gaslight everyone into thinking that 45 minute promo's by failed pumping irons is proper wrestling.


----------



## RBrooks (Oct 18, 2013)

Guys, calm the fuck down. Can we all give AEW a chance and not judge so quickly? Jesus. What the hell is so upsetting, it's Darby Allin, he'll come and go, no need to get all pissed off about it. 



Joe Moore said:


> They want to have have that ranking system in AEW, Ws and Ls should matter. So it's a bit like in boxing. Cody is the mandatory challenger for Jericho at Full Gear, but in the interim period, the champion may defend the title against any contender classified within the top ten of AEW's ranking. I like that idea.


I don't think rankings will work in wrestling. I don't know for sure, maybe AEW could prove me wrong, but you'll have to move around it all the time. You'll have to always have 2nd vs 3rd place matches and all that, it'll become stale and it'll blow some potential PPV main events on free shows. Which is pretty bad. I'd rather they just have #1 contenders matches or name contenders based on W/L records during past month or so.


----------



## RainmakerV2 (Nov 8, 2017)

LongPig666 said:


> Well said. I have seen him a few times live and he is a phenomenal wrestler/entertainer. He was in the forefront of the recent rise of British wrestling, he is versatile and can play any role but is easily best as a sicko heel, he can also wrestle and has presence. I hope people who are not familiar with him give him a chance.
> 
> Unfortunately you are always going to get some fat patronizing 50 year old, red faced, angry Attitude Era prick trying to gaslight everyone into thinking that 45 minute promo's by failed pumping irons is proper wrestling.


In 29, normal physique with hair. Jimmy Havoc sucks. As opposed to what, the 350 pound guy in a Golden Lovers t shirt that goes to every NXT taping and only pops for the guys from ROH and never makes a sound unless both guys are dropping each other on their necks and no selling?


Your patronizing shit goes both ways.


----------



## Joe Moore (Dec 11, 2018)

RBrooks said:


> Guys, calm the fuck down. Can we all give AEW a chance and not judge so quickly? Jesus. What the hell is so upsetting, it's Darby Allin, he'll come and go, no need to get all pissed off about it.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think rankings will work in wrestling. I don't know for sure, maybe AEW could prove me wrong, but you'll have to move around it all the time. *You'll have to always have 2nd vs 3rd place matches and all that, it'll become stale and it'll blow some potential PPV main events on free shows.* Which is pretty bad. I'd rather they just have #1 contenders matches or name contenders based on W/L records during past month or so.



That's true and that's why they inserted a backdoor to their booking. Like in NCAA the quality of a win will also matter. If you achieve an impressing victory, you can get a shot without having a better record. Or you can get penalized like PAC, he used a low blow and won't get a shot, despite the better record. At the end of the day they gonna book what they want, but they at least try to have some logic behind it.


----------



## CM Buck (Sep 2, 2012)

RainmakerV2 said:


> In 29, normal physique with hair. Jimmy Havoc sucks. As opposed to what, the 350 pound guy in a Golden Lovers t shirt that goes to every NXT taping and only pops for the guys from ROH and never makes a sound unless both guys are dropping each other on their necks and no selling?
> 
> 
> Your patronizing shit goes both ways.


Just quoting this cause I can't remember what your first post was on page wise. Do you remember Jeff Hardy vs taker for the wwf title on raw? The ladder match? This is basically Darbys raw moment.

That's the exact magic aew want to recreate. They want Darby to be their jeff.


----------



## RBrooks (Oct 18, 2013)

Joe Moore said:


> That's true and that's why they inserted a backdoor to their booking. Like in NCAA the quality of a win will also matter. If you achieve an impressing victory, you can get a shot without having a better record. Or you can get penalized like PAC, he used a low blow and won't get a shot, despite the better record. At the end of the day they gonna book what they want, but they at least try to have some logic behind it.


If that's what they're trying to do, then I could get behind it. At least heels won't be acting cowardly all the time and blatantly cheat in matches, etc. That could make an interesting concept. Is that what they are actually doing, or just speculations? Because I don't remember this being mentioned anywhere.


----------



## Donnie (Apr 8, 2014)

:lmao Darby and Jimmy already pissing people off. Took less time than I thought. 

Hey, Genius', AEW is a brand new company that needs to establish new people and get the viewers used to them. Running PAC vs Jericho might get eyes, but it doesn't help anyone "new" because they're both already KNOWN. This helps to make Darby and Jimmy, it shows everyone that these two guys are possible future stars of the company, and not just random goobers like the 69 dudes in the Raw midcard. This shit ain't hard to figure out if you actually think about it. 

Darby vs Jericho would actually rule because of the contrast in styles, and it would be the perfect way to show what Darby is about to a new audience. An underdog with Jeff Hardy like appeal that will take an ungodly amount of abuse and keep fighting back until you kill him, and that will get him over. 

Havoc doesn't need to win as his story works better with him eating a series of loses so he can go full Jimmy Havoc on everyone like PROGRESS. 

This is a great idea by CODY, and I'm :mark at the thought of it.


----------



## Soul Rex (Nov 26, 2017)

I am very sad, thought this company was smarter than this.

Do not put your midcard acts in the main event! These two geeks shouldn't be nowhere near the main event scene.

Stick your indy shit in your indy shit.


----------



## Death Rider (May 18, 2011)

^ Don't try talking sense donnie there is no point with some people. Any response to their criticism makes you a blind aew mark. 



RainmakerV2 said:


> V-Trigger said:
> 
> 
> > I bought tickets for NJPW at MSG expecting Kenny Omega and got Jay fucking White. See how it works?.
> ...


So you are a hypocrite? Also again how do you know people are going to be disappointed in darby allin. Darby allin being in the title match does not stop them being on the show?


----------



## RainmakerV2 (Nov 8, 2017)

Death Rider said:


> ^ Don't try talking sense donnie there is no point with some people. Any response to their criticism makes you a blind aew mark.
> 
> 
> 
> So you are a hypocrite? Also again how do you know people are going to be disappointed in darby allin. Darby allin being in the title match does not stop them being on the show?


How am i a hypocrite? What are you even talking about?


----------



## Soul Rex (Nov 26, 2017)

Joe Gill said:


> havoc better win.... would be ridiculous to see some 5'7 dude getting the first shot at the title on tv.
> .


Havoc may not be 5'7 but he looks like have anorexia, he probably weights like 160, which s as equal as ridiculous.


----------



## NXT Only (Apr 3, 2016)

TwistedLogic said:


> Doesn't have anything to do with building intriguing cards. They said from the start they would regularly have titles defended on TV because they're only going to have four PPVs a year.


It’s definitely about intrigue. People will tune in for title matches but even if they have 4 PPVs the title doesn’t have to be defended every month. It becomes overkill but they’re in place to help lengthen reigns. So Jericho will have wins over Page, Darby and Cody obviously and maybe two more title defenses before dropping it to someone.


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## NXT Only (Apr 3, 2016)

AEW will run through all their big matches if they book the way some of you want them to. 

Personally I would not have a defense before Full Gear but I’m damn sure not wasting PAC on a filler defense.


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## LIL' WINNING FOOT (Sep 21, 2004)

:kobelol

Sheesh. At least when I call talent geeks, I do so by the status of their booking and their position on the card/roster. Not because people have a lack of self-esteem to ridicule others' appearance where it excludes them from a title shot.


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## Joe Moore (Dec 11, 2018)

RBrooks said:


> If that's what they're trying to do, then I could get behind it. At least heels won't be acting cowardly all the time and blatantly cheat in matches, etc. That could make an interesting concept. Is that what they are actually doing, or just speculations? Because I don't remember this being mentioned anywhere.



That's how Cody explained the matchup Allin and Havoc on Twitter, because people were immidiately asking why these 2 guys get a shot.


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## Alright_Mate (Jul 21, 2014)

Fucking hell, this thread has gone well


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## LIL' WINNING FOOT (Sep 21, 2004)

Alright_Mate said:


> Fucking hell, this thread has gone well


Par for the course with this section when the same five people intentionally bait for a reaction and the same people keep falling for it.

It is what it is. It doesn't matter, either. I look forward to a good match with Darby/Havoc and a star making title match with Darby and Jericho. :drose


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## Soul Rex (Nov 26, 2017)

WINNING said:


> :kobelol
> 
> Sheesh. At least when I call talent geeks, I do so by the status of their booking and their position on the card/roster. Not because people have a lack of self-esteem to ridicule others' appearance where it excludes them from a title shot.


Very sweet by you, but it doesn't change the fact that geeks are geeks.


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## LIL' WINNING FOOT (Sep 21, 2004)

Joe Moore said:


> That's how Cody explained the matchup Allin and Havoc on Twitter, because people were immidiately asking why these 2 guys get a shot.


Anyone who doesn't solely go by the WWE mindset can see this was pretty standard to follow. 

Havoc and especially Darby are within contendership to qualify for a title shot at the AEW Championship. Thus this match is happening. As for PAC, could that have been explained clearly? Sure, that's reasonable to ask. However, I would venture that PAC is the next in line after Full Gear and his challenge won't come until the next big event or PPV.

See, here in AEW, the position on the card and wins/losses you obtain and how you garner them actually matter. It's foreign in modern wrestling because WWE has been lazy and poor with that kind of concept and has done a good job convincing the masses that it doesn't matter but heaven forbid, AEW actually does it right and it's an issue.


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## TD Stinger (May 9, 2012)

Ah, to go to bed and wake up to a Jimmy Havoc vs. Darby Allin thread having over a 100 comments. And to think even a few months ago this would have been an impossibility.


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## DammitChrist (Apr 3, 2016)

Hopefully, Darby Allin wins the #1 contendership for the AEW title tomorrow night :mark:


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## RainmakerV2 (Nov 8, 2017)

WINNING said:


> Anyone who doesn't solely go by the WWE mindset can see this was pretty standard to follow.
> 
> Havoc and especially Darby are within contendership to qualify for a title shot at the AEW Championship. Thus this match is happening. As for PAC, could that have been explained clearly? Sure, that's reasonable to ask. However, I would venture that PAC is the next in line after Full Gear and his challenge won't come until the next big event or PPV.
> 
> See, here in AEW, the position on the card and wins/losses you obtain and how you garner them actually matter. It's foreign in modern wrestling because WWE has been lazy and poor with that kind of concept and has done a good job convincing the masses that it doesn't matter but heaven forbid, AEW actually does it right and it's an issue.


The guys record is 1-1-1, why the fuck does that get you a world title shot? Thats nonsense. Theres no reason to do all this shit. Why are they trying to force a Jeff Hardy Undertaker moment on their third show? Or this guy is 1-1 but this guy is 2-0 but hes working in the UK and scuffed us on the first show so he doesnt count, etc. Its all jumbled up nonsense. Take your time and stop throwing so much shit at the wall.


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## Alright_Mate (Jul 21, 2014)

WINNING said:


> Par for the course with this section when the same five people intentionally bait for a reaction and the same people keep falling for it.
> 
> It is what it is. It doesn't matter, either. I look forward to a good match with Darby/Havoc and a star making title match with Darby and Jericho. :drose


Whether they are trolling or not I do get both sides of the argument.

Wrestling is changing nowadays, the business is flooded with "Indy geeks" as some like to call them. WWE has plenty, NXT has plenty, ROH has plenty, NJPW have a Junior Heavyweight division, we were bound to have a few 180-200 pound guys in AEW.

Some people will look at the likes of Darby Allin and Jimmy Havoc and think "Cool" others won't give them the time of day. 

You have to build up these guys somehow though, last week for example prior to his match with Cody I didn't care one bit for Sammy Guevara, by the end of the match they had built his character and got me caring.

I can see Darby Allin getting a big push at some point and I'd be all for it, Rey Mysterio has been a World Champion and he is smaller than Darby Allin and probably weighs less too. Darby does shit that easily gets over, as some have alluded to already he can easily be AEW's equivalent to Jeff Hardy.

Jimmy Havoc on the other hand I've never understood the appeal, like Joey Janela unless you chuck him in a hardcore match I couldn't give a shit.

The AEW roster is very much a mixture, some of the smaller guys like Darby Allin and Jungle Boy have appeal, while others clearly don't. I do have concerns about the quality of the roster though, if they go overboard on these so called "Indy geeks" I can see AEW's appeal taking a hit and they'll probably lose viewers.


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## Intimidator3 (Sep 28, 2019)

Good spot for a couple of younger guys. A lot of people like myself haven’t seen a whole lot of the roster like them, hope they put on a good show.

Based on Darby’s match with Cody, I’ll go with him for the win. And Jericho should be able to get something out of him after that.


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## RainmakerV2 (Nov 8, 2017)

Alright_Mate said:


> Whether they are trolling or not I do get both sides of the argument.
> 
> Wrestling is changing nowadays, the business is flooded with "Indy geeks" as some like to call them. WWE has plenty, NXT has plenty, ROH has plenty, NJPW have a Junior Heavyweight division, we were bound to have a few 180-200 pound guys in AEW.
> 
> ...



Again. I have zero issue with either of them being on the roster. If they were fighting for an inaugural midcard title, I'm there with you. No problem. Them fighting for a world title shot on the second ever show is absolutely ridiculous. There are plenty of ways to build guys than just chucking them in number one contender matches because theyre 1-1-1 or just won a cracker barrel match. I mean what the shit.


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## Tilon (Jun 27, 2019)

RainmakerV2 said:


> The guys record is 1-1-1, why the fuck does that get you a world title shot? Thats nonsense.


He's the ONLY person to not get beat by Cody.

That counts for something.


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## RapShepard (Jun 20, 2014)

This thread is just proof that maybe being so hard set on wins and losses matter may not be the best route. The angle of "hey you don't waste Pac on free TB" certainly makes sense business wise. But when Pac is 2-0 and he's not involved then that kind of contradicts wins and losses matter.

If they didn't explain why he's not involved maybe they should. A simple "hey the bastard tried to stick us up for more money for the title fight. So we refused and pivoted to the next guy up."


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## Lethal Evans (Dec 18, 2013)

Joe Gill said:


> havoc better win.... would be ridiculous to see some 5'7 dude getting the first shot at the title on tv.
> i guess they are saving pac for a ppv.
> 
> Jericho vs Moxley
> ...


Moxley twice and Page again?
No thanks.

I'd rather see young guys get a shot with the W/L records.


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## Aedubya (Jul 12, 2019)

Coffin drop into a codebreaker will be awesome in the inevitable Jericho v Allin match


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## Alright_Mate (Jul 21, 2014)

RainmakerV2 said:


> Again. I have zero issue with either of them being on the roster. If they were fighting for an inaugural midcard title, I'm there with you. No problem. Them fighting for a world title shot on the second ever show is absolutely ridiculous. There are plenty of ways to build guys than just chucking them in number one contender matches because theyre 1-1-1 or just won a cracker barrel match. I mean what the shit.


You can look at it two ways, doing something like this, this early has it's pros and cons.

Apart from PAC, Darby Allin and Jimmy Havoc have the best win-draw-loss ratio; however their record for me isn't legitimate enough to have them wrestling in a number 1 contender match, it's a bit too early to have Jericho defending on a tv episode for my liking, wins-losses should have been built up a little bit more before doing something like this.

As for the pros this could be a great way to build Allin or Havoc up. For me though Allin winning should be the only outcome, him versus Jericho at least has some story behind it, plus I think within time Darby Allin will be a big time player in AEW. 

Some people may criticise the win-loss method but it's definitely the best way to go, Wrestling should make sense and mean something, what we don't want is a whole lot of randomness as seen in the promotion that I won't mention


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## NascarStan (Mar 26, 2019)

God people are so stupid sometimes, AEW is being smart in not giving away a PPV quality match in PAC vs Jericho in the third week of television and having Darby or Havoc wok with someone like Jericho will elevate their stock.

Plus PAC can claim he was fucked over in not getting a title match despite being 2-0 which leads to a natural storyline.

Swear to god the people crying a out this match need to go back to the wwe secyion and enjoy Hell in a Cell matches ending in a DQ lol


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## Jonhern (Oct 19, 2017)

no doubt it will be darby, he is a star in the making, jeff hardy type. Looking forward to this card tomorrow, will be there live


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## CRCC (Sep 25, 2017)

WINNING said:


> How? You don't even know if there is a valid explanation for it. PAC could have been unavailable for the match so Havoc took his spot or PAC got a cheap win that diminishes his undefeated record or he may be PPV number one contender and therefore is exempt from this contendership match.
> 
> There can be a plethora of reasons why PAC isn't in this match that makes sense. I'm aware WWE has made a grand effort to think trying new things with logic is "unwarranted" but it works if AEW is consistent with it.
> 
> I'm sure the same people would find a way to bitch about PAC being in the match anyways.


Let's wait for the explanation, then. I'm expecting none.


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## RelivingTheShadow (Apr 25, 2013)

RapShepard said:


> This thread is just proof that maybe being so hard set on wins and losses matter may not be the best route. The angle of "hey you don't waste Pac on free TB" certainly makes sense business wise. But when Pac is 2-0 and he's not involved then that kind of contradicts wins and losses matter.


I think the win/loss thing could work, but they have to explain why PAC isn't in this match, or I wouldn't have even done PAC/Hangman last week, if PAC was 1-0, it would be more acceptable, but currently, there's no reason he shouldn't be in a #1 contenders match, unless they explain it as his win last week was a tainted victory, which I think could work as well. Logically, matchmakers should take into consideration the quality of the opponent, and the quality of the win as well. 
.
Regardless, I will take booking like this any day over people losing their way into title matches in the WWE.


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## RapShepard (Jun 20, 2014)

The Inbred Goatman said:


> I think the win/loss thing could work, but they have to explain why PAC isn't in this match, or I wouldn't have even done PAC/Hangman last week, if PAC was 1-0, it would be more acceptable, but currently, there's no reason he shouldn't be in a #1 contenders match, unless they explain it as his win last week was a tainted victory, which I think could work as well. Logically, matchmakers should take into consideration the quality of the opponent, and the quality of the win as well.
> .
> Regardless, I will take booking like this any day over people losing their way into title matches in the WWE.


The tainted win thing I don't like as a reasoning. As I mean Cody has had interference on his behalf in all 3 of his wins. So should he have got a shot? 

Idk I just think the official W/L record will just be a hamper. They could still make wins matter without necessarily keeping it so strict.


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## Taroostyles (Apr 1, 2007)

Pac clearly has the best overall resume as hes wrestled 2 matches and is 2-0 with 1 victory being somewhat tainted.

Darby drew with Cody and beat Cima but lost in the 4 way to Page at Fyter Fest and the 6 man tag at FFTF he was pinned by Spears. Havoc got pinned in the 4 way by Page and was on the losing side with Allin in that 6 man but won the 3 way vs Allin and Janela. 

So Allin and Havoc have been in 3 matches together, 2 multi man matches against each other and one tag on the same side. Allin hasn't been beaten in a singles match yet while Havoc has, add the draw with Cody in and the victory over Cima and Allin clearly has the stronger case vs Havoc. 

My guess as to why it's not Darby vs Pac is that they just wanna save the Pac title shot for further down the line. I dont blame them but they should establish that Pac is being penalized for his low blow victory over Page for consistency.


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## reyfan (May 23, 2011)

I'm confused I thought Cody was getting a title shot or is this for after Cody?


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## Taroostyles (Apr 1, 2007)

This is before Cody, the winner of this match will face Jericho next Wednesday in Philly for the 1st title defense.

Whats also interesting is that if presuming Moxley beats Spears he will move to 2-0. Should he beat Omega at Full Gear he would almost certainly be next in line at 3-0 with 2 singles wins on PPV. I for one think Kenny needs the win more at Full Gear but I'm not expecting it.


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## RelivingTheShadow (Apr 25, 2013)

Taroostyles said:


> Darby drew with Cody and beat Cima but lost in the 4 way to Page at Fyter Fest and the 6 man tag at FFTF he was pinned by Spears. Havoc got pinned in the 4 way by Page and was on the losing side with Allin in that 6 man but won the 3 way vs Allin and Janela.


Darby drew with Cody, got pinned in the 6 man tag and lost the cracker barrel clash but didn't get pinned. Darby wasn't in the 4 way that Page won at Fyter Fest, he was wrestling Cody on that show, Havoc got pinned in that match.


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## Taroostyles (Apr 1, 2007)

That's right it was Page/MJF/Havoc/Jungle Boy. 

So yeah Darby definitely has the stronger case.


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## TD Stinger (May 9, 2012)

With all this talk that's going on eventually you have to think they come out with an official ranking or something so someone can follow this better, lol. Then again, part of me doesn't want that because I like the conversation it stirs up.

Like I've said before, the only options off wins and losses so far were PAC, MJF, Allin, and Havoc. I figured PAC would at least be in the match, but like I said before, I don't know what his schedule or contract is like with AEW.

Basically, I think this makes enough sense given the fact they've only had 5 shows so far and no one is like 4-0 or anything.


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## Taroostyles (Apr 1, 2007)

Yah I love the dialogue this creates but I think a formal ranking system is unnecessary. This creates debate and is good interest in the product. 

Like someone else said, the fact that a thread about a Darby/Havoc match has 15 pages of replies in 1 day is so awesome to see. 

As we progress it will definitely get more interesting. Like if Omega loses to Moxley that's his 3rd singles loss, he drops way down from there. I think the programs coming out of Full Gear are gonna be Jericho/Moxley, Cody/MJF, and maybe Page/Omega if one of them turns.


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## patpat (Feb 17, 2019)

RapShepard said:


> This thread is just proof that maybe being so hard set on wins and losses matter may not be the best route. The angle of "hey you don't waste Pac on free TB" certainly makes sense business wise. But when Pac is 2-0 and he's not involved then that kind of contradicts wins and losses matter.
> 
> If they didn't explain why he's not involved maybe they should. A simple "hey the bastard tried to stick us up for more money for the title fight. So we refused and pivoted to the next guy up."


 or they will simply explains why pac isnt getting the opportunity on the next show 
It is simple to explain for them, the lowblow devalued his win in a way, or leaving the company there is so many plausible explanations


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## patpat (Feb 17, 2019)

Taroostyles said:


> Yah I love the dialogue this creates but I think a formal ranking system is unnecessary. This creates debate and is good interest in the product.
> 
> Like someone else said, the fact that a thread about a Darby/Havoc match has 15 pages of replies in 1 day is so awesome to see.
> 
> As we progress it will definitely get more interesting. Like if Omega loses to Moxley that's his 3rd singles loss, he drops way down from there. I think the programs coming out of Full Gear are gonna be Jericho/Moxley, Cody/MJF, and maybe Page/Omega if one of them turns.


 I actually see the program coming out of full gear being Omega vs cody. Because I dont see mjf turning on cody this soon, their relationship hasnt been well established enough and in fact I could see cody trying to get back in the title scene by taking advantage of a fallen kenny to get a win.


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## AEW_19 (May 15, 2019)

It's hard to tell if Jericho and Darby will click in the ring but it's exciting to think about the possibilities of people who could eventually hold the title. Pentagon, Mox, Luchasauras somewhere down the line, Cody etc.


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## Intimidator3 (Sep 28, 2019)

AEW_19 said:


> It's hard to tell if Jericho and Darby will click in the ring but it's exciting to think about the possibilities of people who could eventually hold the title. Pentagon, Mox, Luchasauras somewhere down the line, Cody etc.


Yeah the win/loss thing does open up the possibilities. It’s always been a thing in wrestling about this guy never getting a shot or that guy always stuck as a mid card. This can give some of those types a chance here and there.


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## The Raw Smackdown (Jan 8, 2017)

AEW_19 said:


> It's hard to tell if Jericho and Darby will click in the ring but it's exciting to think about the possibilities of people who could eventually hold the title. Pentagon, Mox, Luchasauras somewhere down the line, Cody etc.


Pentagon looks badass in your avi.


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## AEW_19 (May 15, 2019)

The Raw Smackdown said:


> Pentagon looks badass in your avi.


I only saw the first 2 seasons of Lucha Underground but his look and mannerisms are cool as fuck. They can take the video packages and promos to some dark places, man. Can't wait.



Intimidator3 said:


> Yeah the win/loss thing does open up the possibilities. It’s always been a thing in wrestling about this guy never getting a shot or that guy always stuck as a mid card. This can give some of those types a chance here and there.


The rub of being in there with Jericho will make him credible to the wider audience.


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## RapShepard (Jun 20, 2014)

patpat said:


> or they will simply explains why pac isnt getting the opportunity on the next show
> It is simple to explain for them, the lowblow devalued his win in a way, or leaving the company there is so many plausible explanations


I don't think those 2 work well. All of Cody's wins are tainted by some form of interference be it Brandi or Arn. As far as leaving the company, him saving them on short notice evens it out. 

If they explain I say just negotiations failed as Pac wanted more money or some other heel shit.


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## Reggie Dunlop (Nov 2, 2015)

RapShepard said:


> I don't think those 2 work well. All of Cody's wins are tainted by some form of interference be it Brandi or Arn. As far as leaving the company, him saving them on short notice evens it out.
> 
> If they explain I say just negotiations failed as Pac wanted more money or some other heel shit.


Except the leaving part was kayfabe; the saving part was rl. If they wanted to work Pac's saving them into a story, I'm sure the announcers would have made a big deal about him taking the match on short notice, which they didn't. Also, he tried to take out one of their top contenders (Page) as part of all that leaving the company story line, which they could also leverage against him if they really wanted. Plenty of ways to spin it to explain why Pac doesn't get his shot just yet. 

I'm all for giving these other guys title shots for barely logical reasons. I want to see variety, not the same main-eventers challenging each other over and over. As long as there's some semblance of logic and wins/losses do actually count for _something_, I'm cool with it. It's wrestling after all, not a historical documentary. Even though I can already see the discussions in here devolving into massive gripe-fests over who got the shot and who didn't. It's already happening right here and we haven't even gotten to the second show yet.

Like Morpheus said, free your mind. 

Like I said, just enjoy the ride.


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## The Raw Smackdown (Jan 8, 2017)

Well I for one ain't bitching about this. I like Darby and Havoc is cool too. Should be a good match and I can't wait to see who'll take on Jericho.


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## patpat (Feb 17, 2019)

RapShepard said:


> patpat said:
> 
> 
> > or they will simply explains why pac isnt getting the opportunity on the next show
> ...


 not really why? Because he didnt straight up won because of those interference.
Brandi? The referee ejected her from the arena and the fight continued with cody winning the battle lean after a brutal fight. He laid dustin on the matt using his finisher. 
The arn thing? Easy, it is negated by the fact that tully was also interfering in the match in favor of shawn. 
Pac won specifically because of the low blow, he uses the lowblow-> land his finisher and win. The referee didnt notice the lowblow and it was a direct cause of his victory but in cody's case 
The referee notices brandi and eject her, and cody wins the match clean in the ring.
With arn anderson, tully was also interfering against cody so it just negates it. With pac he specifically uses the blow hit his finisher and win with the ref not noticing it. 
So I think this excuse can easily work for them, either that or pac didnt want the shot ( some heel tacting to keep his opportunity and wait to see how darby does before claiming his opportunity ) or the fact that he no showed at 2 shows. Again they have a lot of ways to explain it.
( also what reggie said him saving them was never a part of the story, ) 

Actually I do like your explanation more, pac saying they didnt offer him enough money could be neat. And he is trying to cash his opportunity on PPV to actually get more cash, could make him appear as a piece of shirt who only cares about his cash. That's neat


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## LIL' WINNING FOOT (Sep 21, 2004)

CRCC said:


> Let's wait for the explanation, then. I'm expecting none.


I know you are. When they do eventually clarify and explain it, I'm sure there will be something else they did wrong anyway.


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## Tilon (Jun 27, 2019)

All the armchair quarterbacking is just hilarious.

YOU try running a show you want to make as consistent as possible, with many real people who have real problems and complex allegiances, and your company also has a general philosophy of letting wrestlers play their own characters, giving these wildcards even more power.

You want to take a stab at booking that and being 100% perfect in your logic? It's lightning in a bottle if you do it right, but it's inherently volatile. But that's what makes wrestling so fun to watch!

That being said, I think they're doing a great job. PAC is clearly getting his shot, any fan of his has to be happy with his push. Meanwhile Darby can go like a maniac. I'm all for him getting a shot.


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