# That Moxley vs Hager match was a snoozefest



## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

It was a snoozefest and didn't deliver on what it promised.


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## Mister Sinister (Aug 7, 2013)

I don't know if they ever fit together style-wise. The story could have used a third wheel to mix up the pace of the match and give Mox a transition into another rivalry. We needed PAC or Fenix in the middle of this angle (thanks to some number one contender match going to no-contest).

It's hard to say they should do x or y next because we have no idea what cards they had in hand for tapings or who will be present for the next set of tapings.


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## RainmakerV2 (Nov 8, 2017)

Mox as world champ is a disaster. As anyone with a brain would predict. Guy doesnt have IT. Never has.


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## The3 (Aug 20, 2018)

Taking the belf off Jericho was a mistake


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## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

The3 said:


> Taking the belf off Jericho was a mistake


Anyone who watches could have seen that.


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## RainmakerV2 (Nov 8, 2017)

The3 said:


> Taking the belf off Jericho was a mistake


I was pro Mox beating him and I can admit Im an idiot.


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## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

RainmakerV2 said:


> I was pro Mox beating him and I can admit Im an idiot.


Was never a fan of the idea. The writing had been on the wall that he wasn’t ready.


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## MoxAsylum (Jan 9, 2020)

My goodness that match tonight was the most bland match I’ve ever witnessed in my life. I would rather watch McIntyre vs a clone of McIntyre over that...


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## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

So much build only for it to fizzle out like that.


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## AEWMoxley (May 26, 2019)

Hager should definitely never be a main eventer, but not because of that match, or any match he's ever had. He shouldn't be a main eventer because he's uncharismatic and can't talk.

We've known that for a while, though. Tonight is as close as he'll ever get to a world title in AEW.


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## Oracle (Nov 9, 2011)

Hes boring as bat shit.

i said from day one he was a dud hire and has been that and then some.

hes entrace is cool ill give him that


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## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

Lmao


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## RainmakerV2 (Nov 8, 2017)

How bout your world champion not completely shit the bed in two straight big matches?


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## AEWMoxley (May 26, 2019)

Oracle said:


> Hes boring as bat shit.
> 
> i said from day one he was a dud hire and has been that and then some.


You weren't alone. Anyone with more than a couple of brain cells could see that. He was good in the role of a bodyguard who never spoke, but as soon as he was forced to speak and have feuds, it was over for him. He's just not cut out to be a professional wrestler. I've never had an issue with his in ring skills, and I didn't mind his performance tonight, but there's more to pro wrestling than that - he just completely lacks charisma and promo ability.


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## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

This match was “a treat”.


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## Cult03 (Oct 31, 2016)

Oracle said:


> Hes boring as bat shit.
> 
> i said from day one he was a dud hire and has been that and then some.
> 
> hes entrace is cool ill give him that


Is it bad that I'm not sure whether you're talking about Moxley or Hager here?


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## PavelGaborik (Oct 30, 2015)

Cult03 said:


> Is it bad that I'm not sure whether you're talking about Moxley or Hager here?


Yes but we're used to that from you by now


As for the match : The main issue was the fact that it was so hyped given its stipulation. It was butter soft in the end. I felt like I was watching a watered down Monday Night Raw "hardcore match" it was just...weak.


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## Cult03 (Oct 31, 2016)

PavelGaborik said:


> Yes but we're used to that from you by now
> 
> 
> As for the match : The main issue was the fact that it was so hyped given its stipulation. It was butter soft in the end. I felt like I was watching a watered down Monday Night Raw "hardcore match" it was just...weak.


Good one. 

They're both boring and average in the ring. You'd notice it too if you didn't have a weird crush on the guy. I just get the feeling he's not that cool in real life and is trying to play an intense, loose cannon-like character when he's actually just a dork


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## The_Workout_Buddy (Jan 11, 2014)

The match would have benefited if it was produced like the Edge/Orton - Gargano/Ciampa matches, of course not as long but I think the empty arena killed this one, they were many "quiet moments" that were noticeable when the match began to decrease in intensity.

It's the end of the world? No, but they should be careful because Jon Moxley is by far the biggest star they have on the roster and also the current champion, it's not a good business move to expose him like that.


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## ahmedgyro (Aug 23, 2016)

yeah have to agree 
jericho should've have kept the belt
the difference between him and mox as a champion is clear as day

i don't know what it is but mox just lacks something


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## zkorejo (Jul 2, 2010)

Things would have been different if things were normal. Crowd makes Moxley special. The match probably still would have not been a 5 star but it wouldnt have been as boring as it was.

Had they known about the serious crisis we were about to face, maybe Jericho would have retained. But in those circumstances the timing was right. Mox was hot and Jericho had already faced everyone.


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## link85 (Nov 1, 2015)

I'll have to disagree, I thought the match was really good. I like the grappling to the match during the first 4 minutes. Sometimes it gets tiring watch wrestlers start the match by punching each other in the face, the punches hardly look like they hurt anyways.
Disclaimer I am an a big mma fan with years of grappling experience, that's why I was able to appreciate the match.


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## CMPunkRock316 (Jan 17, 2016)

I liked the physicality of the match. Mox sold the shit out of the beating he took. It took a Paradigm Shift on a chair to beat Hager so he is somewhat protected.


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## rbl85 (Nov 21, 2017)

It's the type of match that you either love or hate but you can't really be in the middle.


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## DJ Punk (Sep 1, 2016)

Not the best. Not the worst.

Having no crowd makes all the matches worse by default recently since the crowd is a big part of a wrestling match. Many times these past few weeks, I've noticed my attention slipping more and more during matches. 

If anything this No Holds Barred match was one of the better matches we've gotten in a while since this whole pandemic started imo.


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## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

rbl85 said:


> It's the type of match that you either love or hate but you can't really be in the middle.


As a random match between two guys filling things, it isn’t terrible.

As something you have carefully built, the only real story you’ve been progressing (to the point of even doing angles on goddamn DARK with your fucking World Champion, in this no-crowds era.

And your two performers decide to grapple? They killed their own heat.

I know I’ll piss off a segment of the fans here, but if Moxley can’t even make a No-Holds Barred match interesting, then what does he provide, other than the built-in fanbase from the machine? His “do it for the fans” promos are fucking stupid, him acting as the chasing the competition is fucking stupid, his match with Pac sucked and the fans excused him, his match with JeriGOAT was flat, and now in a match that should be in his wheelhouse...it fucking sucked.

I don’t care who it is. You’ve got to get the title off Moxley soon. He’s better in the chase and knows how to tell that story.


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## The Masked Avenger (Apr 18, 2018)

zkorejo said:


> Things would have been different if things were normal. Crowd makes Moxley special. The match probably still would have not been a 5 star but it wouldnt have been as boring as it was.
> 
> Had they known about the serious crisis we were about to face, maybe Jericho would have retained. But in those circumstances the timing was right. Mox was hot and Jericho had already faced everyone.


This is probably the most accurate statement that could be made at this time.


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## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

Why does the crowd have to be there to not make Moxley boring for the TV audience? He had a match with stipulations that is supposed to be within his wheelhouse.

And he chose to play MMA instead.


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## kingfrass44 (Sep 19, 2019)

bdon said:


> Why does the crowd have to be there to not make Moxley boring for the TV audience? He had a match with stipulations that is supposed to be within his wheelhouse.
> 
> And he chose to play MMA instead.


Moxley Not boring for the TV
Only omega


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## rbl85 (Nov 21, 2017)

bdon said:


> Why does the crowd have to be there to not make Moxley boring for the TV audience? He had a match with stipulations that is supposed to be within his wheelhouse.
> 
> And he chose to play MMA instead.


If the ratings for the last 2 quarters goes up then that means that the majority of people watching Dynamite liked it, we'll see.

I mean in the past i saw so much people on this forum saying that something sucks or was great and the ratings showed the opposite


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## EmbassyForever (Dec 29, 2011)

I thought it was great.


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## EmbassyForever (Dec 29, 2011)

AEWMoxley said:


> Hager should definitely never be a main eventer, but not because of that match, or any match he's ever had. He shouldn't be a main eventer because he's uncharismatic and *can't talk.*
> 
> We've known that for a while, though. Tonight is as close as he'll ever get to a world title in AEW.


He doesn't need to talk.



PavelGaborik said:


> Yes but we're used to that from you by now
> 
> 
> As for the match : The main issue was the fact that it was so hyped given its stipulation. It was butter soft in the end. I felt like I was watching a watered down Monday Night Raw "hardcore match" it was just...weak.


Soft?! Cmon now. It was exactly what a FIGHT between two adults would look like.
I get that it's not everyone's cup of tea, but I thought the match was hard-hitting and super physical.


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## Oracle (Nov 9, 2011)

rbl85 said:


> If the ratings for the last 2 quarters goes up then that means that the majority of people watching Dynamite liked it, we'll see.
> 
> I mean in the past i saw so much people on this forum saying that something sucks or was great and the ratings showed the opposite


considering the ratings will be fucking shit regardless you cant say that.


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## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

I would hope the numbers go up on an episode of AEW Dark.


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## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

While watching it, did you at any point think, “Man, these guys really hate each other!?”

If not, then the match was shit, because that is exactly the story they told for over a month of building this thing.


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## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

Or hell, maybe the hard hitting you’re talking about was the angle and match falling on its fucking face.


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## EmbassyForever (Dec 29, 2011)

bdon said:


> While watching it, did you at any point think, “Man, these guys really hate each other!?”
> 
> If not, then the match was shit, because that is exactly the story they told for over a month of building this thing.


It was build like an MMA-like fight, and I felt like they delivered. Both are two bad MFers, why the hell a trained fighter like Hager would use chairs and kendo sticks when he has his bear hands?

Not sure what you were expecting, tbh. It's not Havoc and Janela.


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## rbl85 (Nov 21, 2017)

Oracle said:


> considering the ratings will be fucking shit regardless you cant say that.


I'm not talking about the overall rating but ratings for each quarter.


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## Swan-San (May 25, 2019)

I liked it, felt like a real fight, I like hager in the ring, think he sucks on promos.

I can't buy into Mox as this tough badass, doesn't feel like it it's him, it's like he's acting and trying to be one. He bores me as a character overall.


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## RapShepard (Jun 20, 2014)

The thing with the beginning is Moxley isn't that type of wrestler to make that opening make sense. If it was like Hager vs Brock that opening makes sense as it's skill vs skill in a known area. But this would be like having Austin try to chain wrestle with Angle or Benoit.


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## Piers (Sep 1, 2015)

I have been saying for six years that Mox is boring. It showed immediately when the Shield broke up.

Swagger has always been overrated.

These two together was a disaster waiting to happen.


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## MoxAsylum (Jan 9, 2020)

EmbassyForever said:


> It was build like an MMA-like fight, and I felt like they delivered. Both are two bad MFers, why the hell a trained fighter like Hager would use chairs and kendo sticks when he has his bear hands?
> 
> Not sure what you were expecting, tbh. It's not Havoc and Janela.


It was labeled a no holds barred match and it was soft....


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## rbl85 (Nov 21, 2017)

bdon said:


> Or hell, maybe the hard hitting you’re talking about was the angle and match falling on its fucking face.


Dude Mox said last night before the show in an interview with Alvarez that his face was swollen after the match and he thought he broke a rib during the match.

Those 2 guys hit each other really hard.


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## Cult03 (Oct 31, 2016)

EmbassyForever said:


> It was build like an MMA-like fight, and I felt like they delivered. Both are two bad MFers, why the hell a trained fighter like Hager would use chairs and kendo sticks when he has his bear hands?
> 
> Not sure what you were expecting, tbh. It's not Havoc and Janela.


One of them is a bad mother fucker. The other badly plays a bad mother fucker


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## Cult03 (Oct 31, 2016)

rbl85 said:


> Dude Mox said last night before the show in an interview with Alvarez that his face was swollen after the match and he thought he broke a rib during the match.
> 
> Those 2 guys hit each other really hard.


This whole sentence sucks. What was he going to say? He's fine and bury MMA superstar Jake Hager? Interview with Alvarez? Why do people even bother with this twat.


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## Cult03 (Oct 31, 2016)

For those using the lack of crowd as an excuse (another one), can you also explain how other wrestlers have put on good matches that have made sense? Hardcore matches are Mox's bread and butter and he dropped the ball. Again..


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## P Thriller (Jan 6, 2016)

I mean it sucked just as much as a Dean Ambrose vs. Jack Swagger match would have sucked in WWE. Just because someone leaves WWE and goes to AEW doesn't mean they are all of a sudden going to find some magical thing that makes them more entertaining. That's why a lot of these crossovers haven't worked yet, because lets face it Jack Swagger was never good in WWE to begin with. I have higher hopes for the likes of Rusev, EC3 and the Revival because those are guys that actually have shown to be entertaining but just not given the right push.


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## Cult03 (Oct 31, 2016)

Swan-San said:


> I liked it, felt like a real fight, I like hager in the ring, think he sucks on promos.
> 
> I can't buy into Mox as this tough badass, doesn't feel like it it's him, it's like he's acting and trying to be one. He bores me as a character overall.


Have you ever seen a real fight? When Mox tried a take down and got pushed down to his ankle and continued to hold on like a child does to their parent, did that look like a real fight? When Hager straight up socked Mox in the face when he was on the ground and Mox got up without an issue, did that look like a real fight? I mean come on..


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## Danielallen1410 (Nov 21, 2016)

Cult03 said:


> For those using the lack of crowd as an excuse (another one), can you also explain how other wrestlers have put on good matches that have made sense? Hardcore matches are Mox's bread and butter and he dropped the ball. Again..


Problem is it wasn’t a hardcore match. The way it was booked really was poor.


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## Cult03 (Oct 31, 2016)

Danielallen1410 said:


> Problem is it wasn’t a hardcore match. The way it was booked really was poor.


"A *no*-*holds barred match* is a *no*-disqualification *match* or "anything goes" *match*. Neither wrestler can be disqualified during the contest, allowing for weapons and outside interference".

What the fuck is that? It's a hardcore match


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## kingfrass44 (Sep 19, 2019)

Cult03 said:


> Is it bad that I'm not sure whether you're talking about Moxley or Hager here?


WWE Fanboy


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## Cult03 (Oct 31, 2016)

kingfrass44 said:


> WWE Fanboy


Nice input, man. In that case, wouldn't I have enjoyed them when they were wrestling in WWE? Because I didn't find either of them entertaining when they were wrestling there either.


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## AEWMoxley (May 26, 2019)

EmbassyForever said:


> He doesn't need to talk.


There are very few exceptions of guys who are legitimate main eventers who don't need to talk. I agree that he doesn't need to talk, so long as he never becomes a regular main eventer. 



> Soft?! Cmon now. It was exactly what a FIGHT between two adults would look like.
> I get that it's not everyone's cup of tea, but I thought the match was hard-hitting and super physical.


On this, I agree. They did their best to minimize Hager's weaknesses by having him simulate an MMA fight. Mission accomplished. He was in his element, and they essentially simulated a real fight. Don't get me wrong, I love all of the shitting on Hager, but it's surprising that some people are just now realizing he sucks at his job, although it's not necessarily because of his in ring skills, but because of all the other facets of pro wrestling that are far more important. Ring skills are the least important aspect of the business.


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## Prosper (Mar 25, 2015)

The match was bad, I agree. That's coming from someone who has loved 96% of everything AEW has done so far. AEW dropped the ball this time. It was slow, boring, and was nowhere near what a no holds barred match should have been. Especially as much as they were hyping it all night and especially when it involves your world champion. Sometimes you're gonna get duds. Good thing dropping the ball is not a weekly habit for them. And we still have to remember that circumstances took away from the match drastically. With a live crowd, it wouldn't have come off so bad, but that's no excuse to not give it an Edge/Orton or a Ciampa/Gargano type feel. 

I do agree with the notion that Moxley really has had 2 bad matches as champion, but I wouldn't take that as reason to say Moxley's run as champion is failed like some are saying here. Let's not jump to the extreme. The Jericho match was because of Jericho. He's slow and washed AF. Can't blame that on Mox. He's not Kenny Omega, who can get a 5-star match out of anyone. Tonight was both he and Hager's fault though.


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## Prosper (Mar 25, 2015)

OP you suck at making threads. But yes Hager is not that great in the ring. He's a good big guy and has a cool chokehold submission but he needs to improve.


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## TKO Wrestling (Jun 26, 2018)

You guys amaze me. I can only imagine the hell you put your moms through when she gave you cereal that you didn't like for breakfast.


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## Prosper (Mar 25, 2015)

TKO Wrestling said:


> You guys amaze me. I can only imagine the hell you put your moms through when she gave you cereal that you didn't like for breakfast.


Hey man I wanted my Reeses Cocoa Puffs. F**k Fruit Loops.


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## the_flock (Nov 23, 2016)

He was a pointless signing, but worse than that Mox is looking like an awful choice for a champion.


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## hardcorewrasslin (Jun 29, 2016)

bdon said:


> Why does the crowd have to be there to not make Moxley boring for the TV audience? He had a match with stipulations that is supposed to be within his wheelhouse.
> 
> And he chose to play MMA instead.


lol, who is this idiot?


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## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

I think when Hager was signed many people said that he was a poor signing. He was good for a brief period in WWE when he was doing the pro USA thing with Dutch Mantell and that has pretty much been his peak. WWE have tried to push him and make him a big deal and now AEW is doing so.

Reality is he's just another ex WWE guy nearing 40 that is probably making decent money based on him being over 5 years ago.


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## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

Cult03 said:


> "A *no*-*holds barred match* is a *no*-disqualification *match* or "anything goes" *match*. Neither wrestler can be disqualified during the contest, allowing for weapons and outside interference".
> 
> What the fuck is that? It's a hardcore match


Yeah I was baffled in the show thread when an AEW fan tried to tell me that the match promised no violence when both guys had been going on for two or three weeks about how badly they wanted to kick the shit out of one another and the match was no disqualification. Some of the lengths people will go to with defending AEW is astonishing.

In regards to your other comment about the match making no sense I entirely agree. Moxley isn't an MMA guy so why is he taking Swagger down in MMA moves? That just makes Swagger look bad. The right way to book the match would've been in the early stages having Swagger dominate with his MMA, Moxley never gives up making him look like a bad ass, gets on attack and they rumble around the arena. Piledrivers on the floor, maybe a dive off a stage/balcony if they have one large enough, could do the old spot where someone is attempting a powerbomb on the floor or whatever and gets tossed back first onto the cement, choke one another with cables and hell maybe even take it outside and brawl in the parking lot for a little bit. 

I don't know how often WWE takes their brawls outside but one angle TNA did that has stuck with me for what has to be at least a decade now is the time the Main Event Mafia had a brawl with a bunch of TNA guys and it was absolute mayhem with guys brawling in the ring, backstage etc. Nobody really does that anymore. Swagger and Moxley totally could have done that to take up a large chunk of time and then finished it in the ring with a big spot like these matches are meant to end.

I just don't know how two guys with this much experience and this many matches under their belts can get this wrong. Maybe it was Tony Khan agenting the match?


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## Danielallen1410 (Nov 21, 2016)

Cult03 said:


> "A *no*-*holds barred match* is a *no*-disqualification *match* or "anything goes" *match*. Neither wrestler can be disqualified during the contest, allowing for weapons and outside interference".
> 
> What the fuck is that? It's a hardcore match


You misunderstood.

i meant the match they had wasn’t a hardcore match, it should have been.


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## EmbassyForever (Dec 29, 2011)

Swagger and Hager are two different people.
Swagger was a goof for most time. Hager is a legit badass & elite athlete with background in Football, Wrestling and currently an undefeated MMA fighter.

Yall gotta stop with this ex-WWE nonsense. WWE's booking is cancerous and their ex-employees shouldn't be judged based on their time there.


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## Swan-San (May 25, 2019)

Cult03 said:


> Have you ever seen a real fight? When Mox tried a take down and got pushed down to his ankle and continued to hold on like a child does to their parent, did that look like a real fight? When Hager straight up socked Mox in the face when he was on the ground and Mox got up without an issue, did that look like a real fight? I mean come on..


looool yeah that no sell from the punch was stupid. Overall I liked it tho, compared to the fast paced move spam collaboration acrobat style i'm used to seeing on AEW which I don't like.


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## CRCC (Sep 25, 2017)

It was a well structured match. They just aren't good enough wrestlers (especially Mox) to pull off all the matt wrestling they tried to do and many of the transitions were off.

The lack of crowd make everyting worse, of course, because many of the moments that would certainly get a big pop just do not happen.

This is a tough time to have a really good match and those two aren't good enough to pull it off.

However, I thought it was way better than I expected, both because I'm not a fan of those guys as workers and because I read many of the comments before the show.


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## CRCC (Sep 25, 2017)

Hager is ok. Sometimes matches simply do not work. On to the next one.


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## The_Workout_Buddy (Jan 11, 2014)

Hager is a decent worker but you had to remember that his best work was working with the likes of Rey Mysterio, Alberto Del Rio, Dolph Ziggler, Christian and Kofi Kingston. He needs someone who can bump his ass off to make him look like a threat, someone fast who can work the grappler-fast counterattack style match. Jon Moxley is not that guy.

I think working with the likes of the Pentagon Jr, Rey Fenix, Guevara, The Bucks, PAC he will not have the same issues, probably will be good matches.

With whom he should not wreslte at least for now are Jericho, MJF, Page, Matt Hardy, I think those matches would present the same issues as the match with Moxley.


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## Asuka842 (Jul 19, 2016)

Anyone who argues Mox is a bad wrestler hasn't seen the majority of his matches since leaving WWE.

This match suffered from being too long, having no crowd, only JR on commentary, and being hyped up as this violent war too much beforehand.


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## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

Cult03 said:


> For those using the lack of crowd as an excuse (another one), can you also explain how other wrestlers have put on good matches that have made sense? Hardcore matches are Mox's bread and butter and he dropped the ball. Again..


If you can’t get a decent hardcore match out of the guy..


Cult03 said:


> Have you ever seen a real fight? When Mox tried a take down and got pushed down to his ankle and continued to hold on like a child does to their parent, did that look like a real fight? When Hager straight up socked Mox in the face when he was on the ground and Mox got up without an issue, did that look like a real fight? I mean come on..


Exactly. That spot made both of them look like two brothers fighting, knowing you don’t want to hurt the other so “no face punches”, etc.


Cult03 said:


> "A *no*-*holds barred match* is a *no*-disqualification *match* or "anything goes" *match*. Neither wrestler can be disqualified during the contest, allowing for weapons and outside interference".
> 
> What the fuck is that? It's a hardcore match


It amazes me how many simple things in wrestling, that I take for granted as “obvious”, are not as obvious as I had believed them to be.


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## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

So, Moxley has now had letdown matches with Pac, Jericho, and Hager. Basically his last 3 matches and 3 very different styles.

Errr...who exactly is supposed to gove Moxley good matches? You can’t have him wrestle Kenny Omega and Darby Allin every night.


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## Sbatenney (Jul 3, 2018)

It wasn't surprising it wasn't good given that Hager/Swagger has never really had any great matches that I can remember, he has good matches with better workers and has a great look about him too. He is one of the many that I feel most people unfairly blame the WWE for failing, I just don't think he is cut out to be a main eventer.

Also despite them trying, this was Moxley taking on Jericho's henchman, this shouldn't have quite been a squash but I do think Moxley should have beat him without much issue to make him look like a star. I don't think Moxley is the issue, I think with someone like PAC or MJF(or even a heel Cody) he could have a great feud/match, this seems more like a filler.


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## Joe Gill (Jun 29, 2019)

Hager was a good signing last year because AEW was thin and lacked size. Now that they have added some bigger wrestlers and with free agents like Rusev its time to dump Hager. He is boring as hell inside and outside the ring. 
A Rusev vs Moxley match would have been 10 times better.


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## Prosper (Mar 25, 2015)

bdon said:


> So, Moxley has now had letdown matches with Pac, Jericho, and Hager. Basically his last 3 matches and 3 very different styles.
> 
> Errr...who exactly is supposed to gove Moxley good matches? You can’t have him wrestle Kenny Omega and Darby Allin every night.


Mox vs PAC was not a letdown. I do think the storytelling around Mox's eye being injured brought the match down a little though. The Jericho match sucked mostly because of Jericho and the fact that he is 50 years old and slow AF now. The Hager match was both Moxley and Hager's fault. They didn't book it like it was supposed to be booked.


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## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

Sbatenney said:


> It wasn't surprising it wasn't good given that Hager/Swagger has never really had any great matches that I can remember, he has good matches with better workers and has a great look about him too. He is one of the many that I feel most people unfairly blame the WWE for failing, I just don't think he is cut out to be a main eventer.
> 
> Also despite them trying, this was Moxley taking on Jericho's henchman, this shouldn't have quite been a squash but I do think Moxley should have beat him without much issue to make him look like a star. I don't think Moxley is the issue, I think with someone like PAC or MJF(or even a heel Cody) he could have a great feud/match, this seems more like a filler.


His match with Pac was a letdown, too. And Pac is fucking awesome in-ring.


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## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

prosperwithdeen said:


> Mox vs PAC was not a letdown. I do think the storytelling around Mox's eye being injured brought the match down a little though. The Jericho match sucked mostly because of Jericho and the fact that he is 50 years old and slow AF now. The Hager match was both Moxley and Hager's fault. They didn't book it like it was supposed to be booked.


The match was booked perfectly. Lots of great build. I was genuinely interested in this one.

Whoever put that match together failed miserably, and the performers themselves failed miserably.


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## Sbatenney (Jul 3, 2018)

bdon said:


> His match with Pac was a letdown, too. And Pac is fucking awesome in-ring.


 I think if you have them in a feud and not a throwaway match than it would be better. Moxley has always had better matches with a story behind it than without. His throwaway matches have always been a letdowns.


----------



## Danielallen1410 (Nov 21, 2016)

bdon said:


> The match was booked perfectly. Lots of great build. I was genuinely interested in this one.
> 
> Whoever put that match together failed miserably, and the performers themselves failed miserably.


Agree with this. The build was brilliant.


----------



## Matthew Castillo (Jun 9, 2018)

bdon said:


> So, Moxley has now had letdown matches with Pac, Jericho, and Hager. Basically his last 3 matches and 3 very different styles.
> 
> Errr...who exactly is supposed to gove Moxley good matches? You can’t have him wrestle Kenny Omega and Darby Allin every night.


Really? Because I thought his second match with Pac and his match with Jericho were both very good. The first match with Pac suffered from not getting enough time and from the timing of the finish being screwed up. I also thought his Matches with Santana, Ortiz, and Cobb were all very good.


----------



## Zbagint (Jul 25, 2018)

Everyone clamored for more matches with big guys and it's like everyone just forgot how terrible matches between two heavyweights are. You're going to see everyone saying the exact same stuff about Brodie Lee and Lance Archer in a few months too when everyone realizes how limited and slow they are. Big guys are good to have when they can work with Darby/Jungle Boy type guys who can bump for them and get thrown around. When you get two big guys against each other their moves become incredibly limited and you get what we saw last night. Even a good big guy like Cage wouldn't be able to get a good match out of Hager. Hager has been pretty terrible in every company he's been in and frankly, I have no idea why he keeps getting pushed everywhere he goes. It's like every company just said "well, he's tall!" and disregarded wrestling ability, charisma, aura of intimidation etc.


----------



## Riddle101 (Aug 15, 2006)

Lol, remember a few months back when Jericho was champion and all Hager did was stand beside him and look menacing most of the time. Now we finally got Hager in a match and not too many people are a fan of it. I guess being a bodygaurd helped hide his weaknesses a little. He's kind've exposed now.


----------



## yeahright2 (Feb 11, 2011)

If anything, this match exposed how bad Moxley is.. If he can´t throw himself through tables or do a gimmick match involving some stupid stunt, he´s rather boring. With Hager you know what you get, but Moxley was praised by some as the best thing since sliced bread, which he obviously isn´t.


----------



## Chan Hung (Dec 28, 2011)

Edit: I think the style Mox was using hurt the match. Hager isn't that great either in his other matches to be honest.


----------



## Chan Hung (Dec 28, 2011)

Another thing is the whole MMA grappling stuff is quite boring. While a few MMA moves are cool, having a mostly-MMA style match sucks. Nobody wants to see many minutes of people on the ground.


----------



## OwenSES (Jul 19, 2010)

Swagger was never better then when he first burst on the scene 2008-10. The goofy nerdy guy that acted like he was a jock and could back it up in the ring. Swagger has never made serious and legit work.


----------



## Dizzie (Jun 22, 2019)

It's weird but this match reminds of the edge orton match where people either hated it or liked it but everyone admits it dragged a bit and same could be said about hager/moxley.

I sought of liked what they were trying to do but i think they either didnt have the right chemistry together or the necessary talent to pull it off.


----------



## TD Stinger (May 9, 2012)

I think it's been prove by WWE, NXT, and AEW that empty arena matches do not need to be 30 minutes long. And espesically when you have a matchup like Mox and Hager. I love Mox and Hager can work in spots but these 2 in a 30 minute match together? Nah.

And for a match that was No Holds Barred, it didn't really take that much use of the stipulation. It felt like a normal match with a spots in it. Certainly not the "best empty arena match" ever as Tony Khan hyped it as.


----------



## Geeee (Aug 9, 2010)

I dunno. I think this match was alright. My biggest complaint is that the rules were a little unclear and even JR didn't know them. It seems it was falls count anywhere (or at least submissions count anywhere?) and you could get DQ'd for a rope break but not a steel chair?


----------



## MontyCora (Aug 31, 2016)

The match was fine. People crying about Jericho losing the belt are OUT OF THEIR MINDS. When it comes to ring work, Moxley is better and more entertaining than Jericho. 

Jericho is fine without the belt. He'll always be his entertaining self no matter what. Being an entertaining character is absolutely what Jericho brings to the table, NOT being this 5 star match machine. He's older, his matches are more boring than ever. Jericho in this match vs Hager for example would have been worse.


----------



## NathanMayberry (Oct 11, 2019)

Why the fuck is anyone watching a Jack Thwagger match and expecting to be entertained?


----------



## jbl4life (May 23, 2008)

Should have been a falls count any where match inside the empty arena.


----------



## Danielallen1410 (Nov 21, 2016)

The more I think about it the more this match pisses me off.


----------



## Geeee (Aug 9, 2010)

It was really distracting that Hager adjusted his equipment at least 20 times in the match. He needs to get some new knee pads (and not layer them on top of his old turquoise ones)


----------



## RainmakerV2 (Nov 8, 2017)

prosperwithdeen said:


> The match was bad, I agree. That's coming from someone who has loved 96% of everything AEW has done so far. AEW dropped the ball this time. It was slow, boring, and was nowhere near what a no holds barred match should have been. Especially as much as they were hyping it all night and especially when it involves your world champion. Sometimes you're gonna get duds. Good thing dropping the ball is not a weekly habit for them. And we still have to remember that circumstances took away from the match drastically. With a live crowd, it wouldn't have come off so bad, but that's no excuse to not give it an Edge/Orton or a Ciampa/Gargano type feel.
> 
> I do agree with the notion that Moxley really has had 2 bad matches as champion, but I wouldn't take that as reason to say Moxley's run as champion is failed like some are saying here. Let's not jump to the extreme. The Jericho match was because of Jericho. He's slow and washed AF. Can't blame that on Mox. He's not Kenny Omega, who can get a 5-star match out of anyone. Tonight was both he and Hager's fault though.



Page had a great match with Jericho. Tanahashi had a masterclass of a match with him. Hell, Id take the Jungleboy match over the one with Mox.

Mox is just painfully dull in the ring. You can tell he's not a natural athlete. He moves awkward, half of his shit he looks drunk when he hits it. He is, and always will be overrated because Roman and Seth were Vinces two chosen ones and they left Ambrose out to dry and the internet loves to rebel against Vince, so Mox was automatically made into some wrestling deity. Now hes getting exposed and people can see Vince was RIGHT for not making him the guy.


----------



## RainmakerV2 (Nov 8, 2017)

Asuka842 said:


> Anyone who argues Mox is a bad wrestler hasn't seen the majority of his matches since leaving WWE.
> 
> This match suffered from being too long, having no crowd, only JR on commentary, and being hyped up as this violent war too much beforehand.


I watched every single match of the G1 bud. His work was a little better but a little is about it. And thats because in Japan you take shit serious and you fucking work. In his natural habitat dude sucks.


----------



## ReekOfAwesomenesss (Apr 6, 2012)

Mox is not a bad wrestler lol.


----------



## Geeee (Aug 9, 2010)

Mox vs PAC and Mox vs Darby Allin were bangers. Also, in NJPW, Mox vs Archer was awesome, so hopefully they run it back in AEW.

In-ring ability is not really that important. I mean it's a little more important when there is no crowd on hand I guess. People like Mox because he's a good promo and does chaotic shit.


----------



## rbl85 (Nov 21, 2017)

Geeee said:


> Mox vs PAC and Mox vs Darby Allin were bangers. Also, in NJPW, Mox vs Archer was awesome, so hopefully they run it back in AEW.
> 
> In-ring ability is not really that important. I mean it's a little more important when there is no crowd on hand I guess. People like Mox because he's a good promo and does chaotic shit.


A crowd can make an ok match look like a really good match.

Conversely a bad crowd or no crowd can make a good match look like shit.


----------



## WhyTooJay (Aug 25, 2010)

prosperwithdeen said:


> The match was bad, I agree. That's coming from someone who has loved 96% of everything AEW has done so far. AEW dropped the ball this time. It was slow, boring, and was nowhere near what a no holds barred match should have been. Especially as much as they were hyping it all night and especially when it involves your world champion. Sometimes you're gonna get duds. Good thing dropping the ball is not a weekly habit for them. And we still have to remember that circumstances took away from the match drastically. With a live crowd, it wouldn't have come off so bad, but that's no excuse to not give it an Edge/Orton or a Ciampa/Gargano type feel.
> 
> I do agree with the notion that Moxley really has had 2 bad matches as champion, but I wouldn't take that as reason to say Moxley's run as champion is failed like some are saying here. Let's not jump to the extreme. T*he Jericho match was because of Jericho. He's slow and washed AF. Can't blame that on Mox. *He's not Kenny Omega, who can get a 5-star match out of anyone. Tonight was both he and Hager's fault though.


Jericho's match with Cody was better than any Mox match in AEW (Edit: Forgot about the Kenny/Mox match, that one is a toss up. But who doesn't have a great match with Kenny?)


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

RainmakerV2 said:


> Page had a great match with Jericho. Tanahashi had a masterclass of a match with him. Hell, Id take the Jungleboy match over the one with Mox.
> 
> Mox is just painfully dull in the ring. You can tell he's not a natural athlete. He moves awkward, half of his shit he looks drunk when he hits it. He is, and always will be overrated because Roman and Seth were Vinces two chosen ones and they left Ambrose out to dry and the internet loves to rebel against Vince, so Mox was automatically made into some wrestling deity. Now hes getting exposed and people can see Vince was RIGHT for not making him the guy.


Blaming Jericho Is comical.

Pac and Kenny have been the company’s best in-ring takent by far, and Mox had one “ok” match
and a fucking dud on the Jericho Cruise.



 “Geese said:


> Mox vs PAC and Mox vs Darby Allin were bangers. Also, in NJPW, Mox vs Archer was awesome, so hopefully they run it back in AEW.
> 
> In-ring ability is not really that important. I mean it's a little more important when there is no crowd on hand I guess. People like Mox because he's a good promo and does chaotic shit.


And his second match with Pac was shit.

Stop the presses everyone! Mox is great! Just watch him!!!

Just make sure he sticks to matches with Darby, Kenny, and Pac. No one else need apply.


----------



## Geeee (Aug 9, 2010)

rbl85 said:


> A crowd can make an ok match look like a really good match.
> 
> Conversely a bad crowd or no crowd can make a good match look like shit.


Just imagine how ridiculous a Hulk Hogan match would be without a crowd.


----------



## Not Lying (Sep 9, 2013)

Geeee said:


> Just imagine how ridiculous a Hulk Hogan match would be without a crowd.


I saw a couple of days ago Hogan/Rock WM 18, just imaged Hogan doing all his shtick with no crowd, lol.


----------



## TripleG (Dec 8, 2004)

It didn't work. It felt like every other empty PC match the WWE does, and I have a hard time getting into those. 

You really need a crowd to react to this stuff, and up until now, AEW at least had the wrestlers to watch and react, which helped a tad, but now without even that, the match was lacking. 

I thought with Moxley involved, they do something crazy and even go too far like Edge/Orton did, but in this case, they didn't go far enough.


----------



## chronoxiong (Apr 1, 2005)

Yeah I was bored with this match. They needed a crowd. So sad.


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

You don’t need a match. You already have enough smoke and mirrors in giving it a No Hokds Barred stipulation. No one’s fault but Moxley.

Soooo, who put together that awesome Kenny vs Moxley match?


----------



## Peerless (Aug 28, 2014)

AEWfan1 said:


> I just found this forum but this thread is hilarious. If Moxley bad wrestler because he had boring long empty arena match. Then so are Edge, Orton, Ciampa and Gargano. Hager had a boring match with Dustin Rhodes at Revolution. Yet people are blaming Moxley for this?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It's mostly bdon having a rage attack in this thread, but I wouldn't mind too much. This weirdo was harping on for months about how AEW had some convoluted plan which involved Omega being shot to superstardom, but is obviously butthurt and jelly that it's Mox who's getting the rocket instead. In fact, Omega is the furthest thing from that, as he'd rather have his cringe-worthy and embarrassing homoerotic matches with Nakazawa on national TV or having pointless 25-min matches with jobbers like Kip Sabian. For every step forward Omega takes with his classics, he goes three steps back and he has nobody to blame but himself.

As for the match itself, I didn't think it was as bad as people are making it seem. It wasn't a classic or anything, but it wasn't bad either. The opening and ending were cool, there were some slow/boring moments in between despite there being hard-hitting action. I wasn't expecting Omega-Mox brutality. In fact, the build-up made it seem like it would be more of a shoot-style match than anything. They've been adding MMA components to Mox's character since NJPW, where he was training in an MMA-style camp to prepare for the G1. His video packages against Jericho also had him training MMA to avoid Jericho's submission lock, and then the Hager match was built on him training MMA too. The opening of the match absolutely made sense. The first 5 minutes were cool and looked unique, we don't see that often in wrestling.

As for Mox's wrestling pedigree, I don't think I've ever seen someone put as many +4 star matches as he does but still has people claim he can't wrestle. The guy can absolutely go. Is he an all-time talent like Kenny or Okada? Lol fuck No. In fact, he works best with smaller, athletic guys who can bump for him, but there have been so many great wrestlers who were exactly the same. Also, other hyped wrestlers haven't done well in these long no-dq matches either. Orton-Edge was shit, and so was Gargano-Ciampa. Let me guess those guys can't work either, right?

Fact is, most of the wrestling matches post-corona have been underwhelming af. The crowds add so much to a match. All three of those matches would've been much better received, if there was an audience, as that's what wrestling is about. In fact, the few matches that have actually been praised were some matches that weren't even wrestling matches, but cinematic matches instead. Maybe that's the direction AEW should go in instead of having their wrestlers wrestle pointless jobbers in squash matches all show long.


----------



## RainmakerV2 (Nov 8, 2017)

Peerless said:


> It's mostly bdon having a rage attack in this thread, but I wouldn't mind too much. This weirdo was harping on for months about how AEW had some convoluted plan which involved Omega being shot to superstardom, but is obviously butthurt and jelly that it's Mox who's getting the rocket instead. In fact, Omega is the furthest thing from that, as he'd rather have his cringe-worthy and embarrassing homoerotic matches with Nakazawa on national TV or having pointless 25-min matches with jobbers like Kip Sabian. For every step forward Omega takes with his classics, he goes three steps back and he has nobody to blame but himself.
> 
> As for the match itself, I didn't think it was as bad as people are making it seem. It wasn't a classic or anything, but it wasn't bad either. The opening and ending were cool, there were some slow/boring moments in between despite there being hard-hitting action. I wasn't expecting Omega-Mox brutality. In fact, the build-up made it seem like it would be more of a shoot-style match than anything. They've been adding MMA components to Mox's character since NJPW, where he was training in an MMA-style camp to prepare for the G1. His video packages against Jericho also had him training MMA to avoid Jericho's submission lock, and then the Hager match was built on him training MMA too. The opening of the match absolutely made sense. The first 5 minutes were cool and looked unique, we don't see that often in wrestling.
> 
> ...



He has a library of 4 star plus matches? Name em.


----------



## Peerless (Aug 28, 2014)

RainmakerV2 said:


> He has a library of 4 star plus matches? Name em.


His singles matches that Meltzer’s rated +4 stars:

NJPW:
4.5 vs Suzuki at New Beginning
4.25 vs juice at G1
4.25 vs Naito at G1
4.25 vs Takagi at G1
5.00 vs Ishii at G1
4.5 vs Juice at BOSJ

AEW:
4.00 vs Cobb at Dynamite
4.5 vs Omega at Full Gear
4.25 vs Janela at Fyter Fest

WWE:
4.25 vs AJ at SmackDown
4.5 vs AJ at TLC
4.25 vs AJ at Backlash
4.00 vs Seth vs Roman at Battleground
4.25 vs HHH at Roadblock
4.5 vs Lesnar vs Reigns at Fast Lane
4.25 vs Kevin Owens at RR
4.00 vs Seth at MITB
4.00 vs Seth at EC
4.00 vs Seth at HIAC
4.25 vs Seth at RAW after SummerSlam

And that's not including countless tag team matches and 3-man tags that got +4 stars too.

That’s a lot of good matches to have for someone who can’t wrestle. It also isn’t like he’s been given constant long matches to pad those numbers either. Unless, I guess he can’t work because he doesn’t do flips and isn’t some spot monkey who has 1000 false finishes in his matches.


----------



## Cult03 (Oct 31, 2016)

ReekOfAwesomenesss said:


> Mox is not a bad wrestler lol.


Nobody is really saying that. He's had some absolute shit matches but everyone is saying he's average.


----------



## Cult03 (Oct 31, 2016)

He was carried in every single one of them by far better wrestlers. That includes the untrained Joey Janella. Also very few of them would be legit 4 star matches. Meltzer's rating system is legitimately crazy. He's all over the place with it. He might get a 4 star rating in the 'Works for Meltzer's Besties' category.


----------



## Peerless (Aug 28, 2014)

Yes because some poster named Cult03 is going to know what makes a good wrestling match more than the biggest wrestling journalist out there and the guy who popularized the ratings system.

20, 4+ star matches and he’s been carried in all of them. The cope and delusion sure is strong.


----------



## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

I'm in the camp of Moxley being a good worker but to me a 4 star match is pretty close to perfect. It's kind of like referring to a persons looks as an 8 or 9. If they hit that level they'd be drop dead gorgeous and a treasure to all.

All of those matches I doubt are treasures to all and many were probably simply above average. Also, as Cult pointed out how seriously can we take Meltzer's 5 star ratings when Kenny Omega is considered the best North American wrestler of all time EVER (By some margin) based off them?


----------



## Cult03 (Oct 31, 2016)

Peerless said:


> Yes because some poster named Cult03 is going to know what makes a good wrestling match more than the biggest wrestling journalist out there and the guy who popularized the ratings system.
> 
> 20, 4+ star matches and he’s been carried in all of them. The cope and delusion sure is strong.


You're right. Meltzer has never been wrong and we should take his opinion as gospel. He'd give Roman Reigns 4 stars if he acted like his friend for a minute.


----------



## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

Peerless said:


> Yes because some poster named Cult03 is going to know what makes a good wrestling match more than the biggest wrestling journalist out there and the guy who popularized the ratings system.


You know Meltzer's rating system is just his opinion, right? Meltzer isn't a trained wrestler he just reports news and does opinion pieces which is great but lets not make him out to be this industry expert who knows everything.

It amazes me that in the internet wrestling community Jim Cornette is hated by most but Dave Meltzer is treated like some kind of god when it really should be the other way around.


----------



## Peerless (Aug 28, 2014)

Cult03 said:


> You're right. Meltzer has never been wrong and we should take his opinion as gospel. He'd give Roman Reigns 4 stars if he acted like his friend for a minute.


His opinion isn't gospel, and everyone is obviously entitled to their own, but I sure as hell value his opinion more than yours and the average wrestling fan. He's been watching wrestling and reporting on it since the 80s. He's a wrestling historian and he's seen more matches than almost everyone on this forum. Wrestlers look to see how he rates their matches. 

So why shouldn't I use his ratings as a tool to gauge how good a match is? It's not like he rates bad matches extremely high and vice-versa. Of course, it's his opinion and he has his own tastes, but he doesn't stray far from the public perception of matches. I've seen all those Mox matches he's rated +4 stars and I remember thinking all of them were fun to watch barring the Cobb match. There's nothing wrong with using his ratings or other knowledgable wrestling figures' ratings as a tool to check out certain matches. 

Also, he's given Reigns plenty of 4-stars so I'm not too sure what you're waffling about tbh.


----------



## Peerless (Aug 28, 2014)

Chip Chipperson said:


> You know Meltzer's rating system is just his opinion, right? Meltzer isn't a trained wrestler he just reports news and does opinion pieces which is great but lets not make him out to be this industry expert who knows everything.
> 
> It amazes me that in the internet wrestling community Jim Cornette is hated by most but Dave Meltzer is treated like some kind of god when it really should be the other way around.


It is his opinion, but his opinion is considered a valued one within the wrestling community. He's seen thousands of matches, and has been reporting about the industry for a very long time. I'm always going to take his opinion more seriously than some fickle wrestling fan on this forum.

Tbh for his match ratings, I don't always share the same opinion on his ratings because he does have a tendency for overhyping spotfests, but again it's not like people rate those matches two stars and he gives it five stars. His opinion usually matches the public perception.

I like listening to both of them, but please let's not act like Cornette doesn't have some weirdo cult following either. This guy has actually made certain people believe that Omega is a shit in-ring wrestler because of his personal agenda against him.


----------



## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

Peerless said:


> So why shouldn't I use his ratings as a tool to gauge how good a match is? It's not like he rates bad matches extremely high and vice-versa..


He has rated multiple matches as better than perfect...


----------



## Peerless (Aug 28, 2014)

Chip Chipperson said:


> He has rated multiple matches as better than perfect...


Well, the wrestling quality nowadays is at an extremely high-level. It isn't surprising he broke his scale.

Either way, I don't take his ratings too literally. I look at them this way:

3-star range: Average/Good match
4-star range: Great match that's worth checking out
5-star range: Potential match of the year
6-star range: Potential all-time classics

I see them as more of a viewing guide rather than a unanimous claim on match quality.


----------



## Cult03 (Oct 31, 2016)

Peerless said:


> His opinion isn't gospel, and everyone is obviously entitled to their own, but I sure as hell value his opinion more than yours and the average wrestling fan. He's been watching wrestling and reporting on it since the 80s. He's a wrestling historian and he's seen more matches than almost everyone on this forum. Wrestlers look to see how he rates their matches.
> 
> So why shouldn't I use his ratings as a tool to gauge how good a match is? It's not like he rates bad matches extremely high and vice-versa. Of course, it's his opinion and he has his own tastes, but he doesn't stray far from the public perception of matches. I've seen all those Mox matches he's rated +4 stars and I remember thinking all of them were fun to watch barring the Cobb match. There's nothing wrong with using his ratings or other knowledgable wrestling figures' ratings as a tool to check out certain matches.
> 
> Also, he's given Reigns plenty of 4-stars so I'm not too sure what you're waffling about tbh.


He doesn't even know you exist.

I don't value his opinion at all because it's just that, an opinion. He's biased which makes his opinion even worse. His opinion is often terrible as well. It's weird that you'd value his opinion over someone else 100% of the time. I've been right when he's been wrong but because he's been watching wrestling and reporting on it since the 80s, he's a wrestling historian, he's seen more matches than almost everyone on this forum and wrestlers look to see how he rates their matches you'd trust his wrong opinion? 

You should use your own ratings as a tool to gauge how good a match is. This is my problem with television ratings as well. Someone else's opinion doesn't dictate how I see a match or show. 

Tell me your opinion on Jim Cornette next


----------



## ReekOfAwesomenesss (Apr 6, 2012)

Cult03 said:


> Nobody is really saying that. He's had some absolute shit matches but everyone is saying he's average.


I saw things worse than ''average'' but if thats so Mox is not an average wrestler lol.


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

I mean, Omega is one of the very best in-ring performers of all-time. His ability to draw emotion out of an in-ring story in his matches are up there with the very best of all-time.

Which is just a staple of the New Japan system. You don’t have to know Japanese to understand what the fuck is going on when you watch New Japan World. I only began watching during WK, and I couldn’t take my eyes off it. The performances and storytelling is just fucking phenomenal.


----------



## RainmakerV2 (Nov 8, 2017)

Peerless said:


> His singles matches that Meltzer’s rated +4 stars:
> 
> NJPW:
> 4.5 vs Suzuki at New Beginning
> ...


Lmao. How many of those matches have you actually seen? That Ishii match is LITERALLY one of the most overrated matches in modern pro wrestling history. Its a good brawl, but a perfect 5 star match? Lmao. Jesus. People were just cumming in their pants because a big time WWE guy was trading forearms with Ishii.


Plus just gazing at your list, at least half or over half of those matches are No DQ or have some hardcore stipulation. Hell in the G1 he used weapons every match to the point the crowd would groan when he went and got a table..again.

Edit: Scratch that, looks like literally 80 percent of that list was a no DQ match lol.


----------



## MarkOfAllMarks (Apr 7, 2018)

I liked it. I enjoy Hager in AEW. Seems a lot more serious then he used to be. He's enjoyable to watch. I don't think it was boring at all.


----------



## MarkOfAllMarks (Apr 7, 2018)

EmbassyForever said:


> Swagger and Hager are two different people.
> Swagger was a goof for most time. Hager is a legit badass & elite athlete with background in Football, Wrestling and currently an undefeated MMA fighter.
> 
> *Yall gotta stop with this ex-WWE nonsense. WWE's booking is cancerous and their ex-employees shouldn't be judged based on their time there.*


I bolded it. Amen brother.


----------



## Peerless (Aug 28, 2014)

RainmakerV2 said:


> Lmao. How many of those matches have you actually seen? That Ishii match is LITERALLY one of the most overrated matches in modern pro wrestling history. Its a good brawl, but a perfect 5 star match? Lmao. Jesus. People were just cumming in their pants because a big time WWE guy was trading forearms with Ishii.
> 
> 
> Plus just gazing at your list, at least half or over half of those matches are No DQ or have some hardcore stipulation. Hell in the G1 he used weapons every match to the point the crowd would groan when he went and got a table..again.
> ...


I remember all those matches and recall enjoying them at the time. The only one that looks weird there is Cobb. I'd rather put Seth-Ambrose from SummerSlam there instead, personally. The general perception of those matches was that they were well-received. You may not have enjoyed them, but the vast majority of people did.

Only 7/20 of those matches had a stipulation. Yeah, the table stuff has become part of his shtick in NJPW, but in a lot of the big matches over there, I see a table or chair spot (especially with the American wrestlers). The rules are a lot more lenient, does DQ even exist over there?

Either way, nobody is claiming Mox is an Okada in the ring, but the guy can definitely go. Let's not lie to promote an agenda just because YOU don't like him.


----------



## Peerless (Aug 28, 2014)

Cult03 said:


> He doesn't even know you exist.
> 
> I don't value his opinion at all because it's just that, an opinion. He's biased which makes his opinion even worse. His opinion is often terrible as well. It's weird that you'd value his opinion over someone else 100% of the time. I've been right when he's been wrong but because he's been watching wrestling and reporting on it since the 80s, he's a wrestling historian, he's seen more matches than almost everyone on this forum and wrestlers look to see how he rates their matches you'd trust his wrong opinion?
> 
> ...


Pot calling the kettle black.

Prove to me all the times you've been right sir Nostradamus. Clearly you're some high-level wrestling genius.

I watch matches and give my own opinion. There have been times where Meltzer's rated a match higher/lower than what I would've. However, I still like to use Meltzer's ratings as a tool to gauge the matches I haven't watched live and to see if they're worth checking out. I ain't wasting time stressing about him giving a match 4.75 stars instead of 5 stars. I use his ratings as a viewing tool, much like cagematch ratings, and other star-ratings platforms.

Even then as I said before, his opinions don't stray far from the general public opinion. Very few times have I seen him go on to shit on a match that's generally enjoyed, and vice-versa. The Anti-Meltzer hivemind is strong with this one.

As for Jim, I love listening to him. I largely agree with his views on how wrestling should make sense, and if he recommends a match, I'll probably check it out myself. He's one of the most knowledgable wrestling figures around. Why shouldn't I value his opinion either?

Take Kenny for instance. I agree with Meltzer that Omega is a generational talent in the ring, and you can't deny that with the catalogue of matches he produced at NJPW.

However, I agree with Cornette that Kenny carries himself like a geek and his lame comedy spots harm his reputation more than anything else. This stuff isn't mutually exclusive brah. The truth is usually somewhere in between.


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## imthegame19 (Oct 12, 2008)

Peerless said:


> Pot calling the kettle black.
> 
> Prove to me all the times you've been right sir Nostradamus. Clearly you're some high-level wrestling genius.
> 
> ...


I agree Moxley has good matches and doesn't carry himself like a geek. Hes got a awesome character that fans love. FWIW it's it just Meltzer opinion. Majority of fans like a lot of Moxley matches the past year. Along with a bunch from 2014-2016 in WWE. Even outside of Japan and AEW he had really good matches with Darby and Pentagon Jr for Northeast Wrestling that you can find on Youtube or Dailymotion in good quality. Just look at Cage match site to see what people think of his matches.


Moxley vs Juice Robinson 8.68/10
Moxley vs Janela 8.20/10
Moxley vs Ishii-9.18/10
Moxley vs Shingo-8.11/10
Moxley vs Naito-7.95/10
Moxley vs White-7.37/10
Moxley/Goto-6.27/10
Moxley vs Robinson-7.77/10
Moxley vs Omega-8.80/10
Moxley vs Darby-7.60/10
Moxley vs Trent-6.32/10
Moxley vs Archer-7.48/10
Moxley/Pac-6.61/10
Moxley/Suzuki -8.43/10
Moxley/Cobb -6.92/10
Moxley/Jericho -7.29/10

These are Cody Rhodes matches rated since All Out.

Cody/Spears-6.58
Cody/MJF-6.81
Cody/Wardlow-8.04/10
Cody/Darby-7.44/10
Cody/Jericho-8.34/10
Cody/Sammy-6.93/10
Cody/Spears-6.64/10

Here's Omega most recently singles matches ratings.

Omega/Trent-7.77/10
Omega/Sammy-7.63/10
Omega/Pac-9.17/10
Omega/Sabian-6.23/10
Omega/Dragon Lee-8.44/10
Omega/Pac-7.25/10
Omega/Jack Evans-7.26/10
Omega/Moxley-8.80/10
Omega/Janela-7.18/10

Obviously Moxley best work came in New Japan the last year. But he's also been on a lot more ppv like shows there. While he's only had three ppv like shows in AEW and two of them are his highest rated AEW matches. So Moxley might not be one of the 10 best wrestlers in the world. But fans sure enjoy his matches overall if you look at those ratings. It's not just Meltzer ratings as excuse.


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## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

Fans don’t know how to detach a wrestler’s in-ring performance from their love of their character.

Moxley matches are kind of blah for the most part.


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## RainmakerV2 (Nov 8, 2017)

Peerless said:


> I remember all those matches and recall enjoying them at the time. The only one that looks weird there is Cobb. I'd rather put Seth-Ambrose from SummerSlam there instead, personally. The general perception of those matches was that they were well-received. You may not have enjoyed them, but the vast majority of people did.
> 
> Only 7/20 of those matches had a stipulation. Yeah, the table stuff has become part of his shtick in NJPW, but in a lot of the big matches over there, I see a table or chair spot (especially with the American wrestlers). The rules are a lot more lenient, does DQ even exist over there?
> 
> Either way, nobody is claiming Mox is an Okada in the ring, but the guy can definitely go. Let's not lie to promote an agenda just because YOU don't like him.


Lol. The Suzuki match was no DQ. The Juice match was no DQ and if you watched it you know Juice literally did all the work. The Ishii match was as No DQ as you'll get. The omega match, duh, the AJ ladder match, the two triple threats (yes these are no DQs and count) The Janela match, the KO LMS, the Seth ladder and HIAC.

Thats 11 out of 20. More than half. Strangely the best pure wrestling match he probably had of the G1 was with Jay White, but of course Meltz didnt like that since he has a hard on for Jay because Kenny does.


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## RBrooks (Oct 18, 2013)

Threads like this is why I wish I'd just stop logging in to this forum.


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## Erik. (Mar 17, 2014)

RBrooks said:


> Threads like this is why I wish I'd just stop logging in to this forum.


Tempting, my friend. 

State of some of these posts and some of the new posters in general. God, I miss the old forum.


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## Eyyaadchiekkk (Apr 17, 2020)

RBrooks said:


> Threads like this is why I wish I'd just stop logging in to this forum.


Ndai ang meh nyabak aaa...


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## Danielallen1410 (Nov 21, 2016)

I’ve just watched the impact rebellion main event and it’s exactly what I hoped Moxley Hager would be....what a massive shame.

aew are the only company not to do cinematics in their events since this pandemic, and whilst it’s good to be different, the cinematic matches are making lifeless events much better in my opinion. I hope they learn from this at double or nothing.


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## The Masked Avenger (Apr 18, 2018)

Danielallen1410 said:


> I’ve just watched the impact rebellion main event and it’s exactly what I hoped Moxley Hager would be....what a massive shame.
> 
> aew are the only company not to do cinematics in their events since this pandemic, and whilst it’s good to be different, the cinematic matches are making lifeless events much better in my opinion. I hope they learn from this at double or nothing.


AEW also filmed all of these episodes before WWE aired WrestleMania. Also those matches take time to plan and film and their backs were against the clock with the stay at home order in Georgia. Uncertain about when they were going to be filming again, they opted to film as many matches as possible instead of wasting time filming cinematically. 

AEW announced they will start filming again in May so I can see them doing one then. They also teased a match at the Hardy Compound a few weeks ago so it has been planned but the camera crews probably can't get to North Carolina to film it.


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## Danielallen1410 (Nov 21, 2016)

TheMaskedAvenger said:


> AEW also filmed all of these episodes before WWE aired WrestleMania. Also those matches take time to plan and film and their backs were against the clock with the stay at home order in Georgia. Uncertain about when they were going to be filming again, they opted to film as many matches as possible instead of wasting time filming cinematically.
> 
> AEW announced they will start filming again in May so I can see them doing one then. They also teased a match at the Hardy Compound a few weeks ago so it has been planned but the camera crews probably can't get to North Carolina to film it.


yes fair one.


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## patpat (Feb 17, 2019)

Well clearly the people watching at home didnt perceive the hidden genius of this match 
Because the ratings ran away with the excitement for this bout


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## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

patpat said:


> Well clearly the people watching at home didnt perceive the hidden genius of this match
> Because the ratings ran away with the excitement for this bout


No one will respond. We know this.


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## Cult03 (Oct 31, 2016)

patpat said:


> Well clearly the people watching at home didnt perceive the hidden genius of this match
> Because the ratings ran away with the excitement for this bout


I'll respond. People watched because they hyped it very well. It was not what was promoted. People have already said this numerous times. It was a blood feud that ended up being one dork in cargo pants trying single leg take downs on a legit MMA fighter. Mox spent half the time pulling his pants up and not selling punches to the face. People were excited for it, even I was. But people were very disappointed with the match too.


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## domotime2 (Apr 28, 2014)

yeah the match wasn't great but you HAVE to grade it on a curve here. These no crowd matches are REALLY rough to watch as is. It still wasn't great but whatever.


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## Cult03 (Oct 31, 2016)

domotime2 said:


> yeah the match wasn't great but you HAVE to grade it on a curve here. These no crowd matches are REALLY rough to watch as is. It still wasn't great but whatever.


There have been a few really good matches without crowds though. The excuses are becoming too much. If Hikaru Shida and Britt Baker can put on a good match then these two absolutely can. If we are grading it on a curve then Shida VS Baker is a 5 star classic


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