# Just How Bad Is Raw Right Now?



## NathWFC (Apr 15, 2011)

Honestly, to me, this shit is becoming intolerable. 

I love wrestling, and for this reason and what must be simply blind hope I continue to find myself watching WWE's product each week, but the level of quality that the show has dipped to is genuinely an absolute disgrace and it has been since ER. Barring Punk and DB everything about the show is terrible beyond comprehension at the moment. The booking, the feuds, the promo's, the amount of recaps, everything. It's just all becoming unbearably awful and, in my opinion, Raw is at the lowest point I can ever remember.

Considering the amount of people saying similar things EVERY week in the Raw thread, I'd be interested to see how it shapes up in a vote.


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## WhyTooJay (Aug 25, 2010)

Didn't watch.


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## bscale (Mar 15, 2011)

I care only Punk vs DB.


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## Blade Runner (Jan 24, 2012)

I agree. This show was missing something..


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## DoubleDeckerBar (Aug 10, 2011)

SVETV988_fan said:


> I agree. This show was missing something..


I know right, Chris Jericho and Mark Henry were sorely missed. :cena

As for Raw, it's in it's downtime right now, it's gonna suck for the next month or so before they get started on the next big summer angle. I'm struggling through right now, at least we got to see the first step in Ziggler breaking away from Swagger and maybe even getting into a program with Orton.

I can say without any hesitation I've seen it much worse, anybody remember "Rosie O'Donnell" vs. "Donald Trump" or Vince and Shane vs. HBK and "God" now THAT was unwatchable.


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## PowerandGlory (Oct 17, 2011)

the last 2 wks is the worst it has been since i started watching again in early 2010. speaking of doink, his feud vs bam bam is better than anything show has done the last 7 yrs


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## uniden (Jan 30, 2012)

My guess, it's as good as it gets , don't expect anything better


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## Therapy (Jul 28, 2011)

Sorry OP, but RAW ended 20 minutes ago and began 2hrs and 20 minutes ago. Can you please give me a long drawn out recap of RAW and then recap the recap in 5 more minutes just to make sure I remember..


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## Johncena-hhh (May 21, 2008)

Always in this time of year is a bad product

No big names .. not interesting storyline ..

Product is boring ..

..


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## Venomous (Jun 20, 2011)

We are currently witnessing the worst era of pro-wrestling in the last 20 years. This rivals 2009 levels of bad, I'd even argue that 2009 was even better than what's currently going on.


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## Trifektah (Nov 21, 2011)

What amazes me is how they always find the perfect way to accomplish as little as possible in 2 hours of TV time.


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## JasonLives (Aug 20, 2008)

Not even close to some of the crap they pulled in 07-08.


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## Striker (Aug 31, 2011)

Raw is in the middle of Mania and a big summer story. 

Chill out, it's like this every year.

I liked Raw.


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## Rock316AE (Aug 12, 2011)

In the current state? take out Show's new awesome performances and it's with the worst material ever for wrestling programs, Nitro/Thunder 2000 were better. If overall? then Lesnar was saving RAW before Big Show and he's coming back in July to do it again so that's a good thing. Show is losing to Cena at NWO but he can still continue to dominate after that, I can see a great Lesnar/Show/Heyman stable in the Summerslam feud with HHH.

And of course master mic Mark ratings Henry! Save us Mark.


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## Firallon (Feb 25, 2012)

WhyTooJay said:


> Didn't watch.


You don't know how lucky you are. RAW was PITIFUL tonight. One of the worst of all time.


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## Carcass (Mar 12, 2010)

Outside of the Daniel Bryan/Punk/AJ/Kane, Christian as IC champ and Heyman/Lesnar/HHH (which isn't even on every week) storyline WWE in general are terrible. Really thinking about skipping RAW from now on like I do with SD and just youtube the angles that I mentioned the day after.


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## 2K JAY (Jan 2, 2011)

I'm struggling through.

Besides Bryan and Punk, the show sucks. Big Show vs Cena, nobody wants to see that.


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## fathergll (Jan 29, 2012)

Pretty bad.... Even cm punk's whole gimmick is getting a bit tiring(coming from a huge punk fan) thought I still consider him one of the few good things about raw. 

For a second raw was back during the episode right after wrestlemania with the amazing smark crowd and Lesnars comeback. That was so much fun watching and aft that the crowd and product went back to being crap. The Lesnar angle ended up sucking and the product continues with awful rehashed matches. It's just the same thing every week.


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## jonoaries (Mar 7, 2011)

Hey look its this topic again! Yippie!

Oh man...

I can't wait until next weeks episode of "How bad is Raw" or " WWE sucks"!


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## Arm-Bar1004 (Mar 7, 2012)

Talk about blowing things out of proportion. This week's raw was a step from the last couple of weeks. Besides May is usually a slow month for the WWE like people said, the summer storyline will make you forget about this.


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## RoadDoggJJ (Apr 2, 2008)

I'm in the very small minority, but I thought it was alright. Punk/Bryan was great, Big Show's promo and beatdown at the end were both quality stuff, and we got a pretty good tag match and Christian/Miz match. Besides that, there wasn't anything cringeworthy on the show, so I don't know how anyone can say it's worst of all time material.


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## Marv95 (Mar 9, 2011)

Maybe not as bad as 2007 and 2009(though the first 3 months of 09 were stellar compared to this), but it's not that far away. At least in those years they had a credible roster, the commentary wasn't as atrocious, and they didn't pimp out Twitter. The storylines back then just plain _sucked_. It needs an overhaul and needed one for a while. Lesnar/Heyman/HHH is all fine and dandy but they need to be more of a focus and they need creative/Vince to back off.


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## JasonLives (Aug 20, 2008)

RoadDoggJJ said:


> I'm in the very small minority, but I thought it was alright. Punk/Bryan was great, Big Show's promo and beatdown at the end were both quality stuff, and we got a pretty good tag match and Christian/Miz match. Besides that, there wasn't anything cringeworthy on the show, so I don't know how anyone can say it's worst of all time material.


Agree!

I can understand "boring" but Awful and one of the worst of all time?? Please...
But I can bet you can find people bitching like crazy during the Attitude Era and saying how much those shows sucked.

The show was a big step up from the last two weeks.


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## miles berg (Jun 12, 2010)

I watched for 35 minutes and that was enough.

Unwatchabke.


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## Falkono (Dec 7, 2009)

Very bad.

Im a huge wrestling fan and have been watching from the 80s and It annoys me to see WWE in the state it is. The show needs a huge overhaul. 
TNAs impact is defiantly better now and people who say otherwise probably don't watch it. As a fan of wrestling I'm interested in all brands that perform it. Simply watching one only limits yourself. TNA still has a fair bit wrong but they have experimented a lot trying to find a formula that works. Sometimes ithas been horrible but they try things, they have now found a good formula and the shows are getting better.

WWE on the other hand is stuck in limbo. It keeps doing the same thing as it is too scared to try anything new. The show is built up of recaps, tedious promos that make the characters seem the same. Like this Big Show angle, it has been done before so many times with him that it is hard to care. He will get built up as a monster again, throwing people through tables, beating other big guys, beating Cena on raw then make it look an impossible task for Cena but Cena wins as always then Show falls away into midcard again.

Raw needs to stop showing the same promo multiple times that night. Stop having these stupid squash matches as there is hardly any wrestling as it is. Stop talking about trending and shit like that. Make the brand split end and make only one main title. Stop having Eve and Otunga talk on behalf of the GM, nobody gives a fuck about them. 
The show has become too predictable as things seem too rushed. The stories should be more thought out, if it is something that's been done loads recently then don't run with it!

But as I said my main gripe is they won't risk trying anything new. The 3hr show is a bad decision. There are too many ad breaks and it breaks up any rythem in the show, fix the current show and make it popular before expanding it. Making a poor show thin with content longer will hurt its popularity further.


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## hardyorton (Apr 18, 2009)

For everyone moaning it was one of the worse Raws ever(i taught it was watchable)
it certainly had another great tv match between Bryan and Punk and decent tag team match.
The whole Big show/Cena thing is boring already but thats WWE trying to keep Cena in the main event.


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## dan the marino (Oct 22, 2006)

Only slightly above '95 and the year of the Guest Host GMs. Although in some ways just as dull; I honestly can't think of another time I had almost no interest in any storylines like this.


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## Aficionado (Jul 16, 2008)

I'm struggling. Thank God for DVR. I mean not only does the actual show lack any depth but I can't believe how often I have to fast forward through all the commercials, recaps, and video packages. It's my greatest pet peeve with watching anything WWE related these days. Even PPV's are infected with that crap!

As far as RAW is concerned and as the general consensus states, the Punk/Bryan/Kane/AJ storyline is basically the only thing worth paying any attention to. I did enjoy Ziggler's tease to leave Vicki and Swagger though. That is long overdue.

Today I'm watching WWE for 5 things.

- The Punk/Bryan/Kane/AJ story line
- The Lesnar/Heyman/HHH saga (which seems all but forgotten)
- Damien Sandow
- Antonio Cesaro
- The never ending anticipation for the debut of Dean Ambrose


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## Firallon (Feb 25, 2012)

dan the marino said:


> Only slightly above '95 and the year of the Guest Host GMs. Although in some ways just as dull; I honestly can't think of another time I had almost no interest in any storylines like this.


^ This. These story lines (and I use the word 'story' very loosely) are incredibly boring. I don't want to see Big Show vs Cena. I don't want to see Bryan vs Punk. I think it is time for a break from RAW.


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## DiamondWrestling (May 27, 2012)

*It's Terrible yeah. But I learned to just watch the few good parts, skip thru the rest. Watch DB-Punk, skip everything else. The Big Show stuff is okay, & I like the Christian-Rhodes feud.*


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## xxhj375474 (May 28, 2012)

tonight was a good show.best raw in years. i enjoyed every minute and every segment.


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## PacoAwesome (Jun 20, 2011)

It's pretty bad. Bryan and Punk are the only ones keeping me watching.


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## Portugoose (Mar 30, 2010)

The TV shows may "suck", but their PPVs have been top-notch this year save for the Cena-Laurinaitis logic black hole.


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## StoneRockSvgTaker (May 28, 2012)

I fast forward thru it every single week on my dvr. not even worth watching on mute. not sure why I even record it, I guess in case something good happens, but that never seems to be.


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## SPCDRI (Mar 15, 2010)

It isn't as bad as I've ever seen but I'd be lying if I didn't say the last 4 weeks were a struggle.

I cannot fathom this as 3 hours and overrun. I simply cannot wrap my mind around it.

It is gonna be like I am a kid again watching the first and last half hour of WCW Nitro. Creative is already so physically and mentally drained that this program had a 10 minute long video game commercial on it and the game doesn't come out for _seven months._ May God have mercy upon us sinners because 3 Hour RAW sure isn't going to.


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## Venomous (Jun 20, 2011)

I think Vince and the higher ups in WWE and many of the wrestlers/announcers KNOW the product is shit.


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## Therapy (Jul 28, 2011)

A saving grace lately, of all things is Lawler and Cole have become a very good team... Never thought I'd say that but they've really meshed well for the past few months.

One of my favorite things they do lately is audibly trying to hide their real laughter or comments. They were ribbing Johnny Ace during his promo and every once in a while you can hear snorting and snerking while dying trying not to laugh.


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## Rated R™ (Jul 2, 2006)

I fell asleep during the entire Raw, I just caught the ending of Bryan/Punk and even than my eyes were not even wide open.

Boring show tonight.


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## Redrox (Jan 29, 2012)

It's been..rough and at this point, I'm not sure if Brock can save it. I have no prob with Big Show unless he is in a main event spot and what do ya know that's what's going on. I'm also sick of Johnny on my screen, it's time to let that die. I don't find him entertaining at all. Punk/Bryan/AJ and a looming Trips/Brock feud are the only things keeping me watching Raw.


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## -XERO- (Jan 31, 2011)

The 4th choice.


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## CandyAssets (May 22, 2012)

Just as bad as having an electrician be the WWE champion.


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## Aficionado (Jul 16, 2008)

I skimmed through RAW on my DVR and in the 133-minute show, 40 minutes were adds, 13 minutes were recaps/hype videos, and 80 minutes of actual RAW. That means 40% of the show is soaked up with advertisements and poppycock. And that doesn't even count the nonsense they feed us during that 80 minutes.

This means that in a 3 hour, 180-minute show (without overrun), close to 80 minutes of it will be adds/recaps with the other 100 or so for the actual show. 20-30 more minutes couldn't hurt that bad, could it?


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## Clique (Sep 9, 2007)

Raw's back to 2009-2010 bad. Definitely will not be watching full shows for the foreseeable future.


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## PGSucks (Aug 16, 2010)

If it's as bad as you can ever remember, you clearly haven't been watching very long at all. There has been some unbelievable crap in RAW's history. 

As for me, I am definitely struggling through. Not only is it the usual lull period of WWE programming, but there's Brodus Clay, whose character I would like to go extinct.


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## chargebeam (Jul 12, 2011)

Tonight it was pretty good, compared to the other Raw's this month. We got CM Punk vs Bryan free on TV. I enjoyed that match.


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## JobbyJobberson (Mar 25, 2012)

I'm so curious as to why people hate everything *but* Punk/Bryan. As if their lone program is a diamond mounted on top a pile of shit. Guess what people, it's all part of it. I don't care how technically impressive their match on RAW was, it doesn't change the fact that it was also one giant colossal waste of time. Why should I care about their feud if the WWE doesn't care? It's hard to care about a match when there's nothing at stake, the outcome has no baring on anything whatsoever, and when you know for a fact the same two individuals will be competing _again_ at the PPV.

I seriously don't know what the WWE tries to accomplish with all these non title matches featuring champions. I really don't. I have absolutely. no. fucking. idea how a non title match between Punk and Bryan raises the anticipation for a title match between Punk and Bryan... a week after we all saw a title match between Punk and Bryan.

Someone help me out there.


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## Geralt of Rivia (May 5, 2012)

it's like the dark ages. don't fret, for after the dark ages, the renaissance!


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## Boston8119 (Jun 28, 2011)

One IWC pet peeve I have these days is people complaining about ad times. Raw uses the standard ad time of any American show. There is no getting around it. There will always be roughly 20 minutes of ad time each hour. That's the way American television works. Why people still complain about commercials I have no idea.


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## Rusty Shackleford (Aug 9, 2011)

I watched the opening promo from big show and the punk vs Bryan match


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## Aficionado (Jul 16, 2008)

Boston8119 said:


> One IWC pet peeve I have these days is people complaining about ad times. Raw uses the standard ad time of any American show. There is no getting around it. There will always be roughly 20 minutes of ad time each hour. That's the way American television works. Why people still complain about commercials I have no idea.


That's a good point. I guess I just hate commercials in general. With RAW in particular, their placement of adds is part of the problem. But then again, that is why I use a DVR after all. It just seems to me that RAW has never been as add heavy as they have been the past few years.

4 minutes of commercials -> 3 minutes of recaps/hype videos -> 4 minutes of commercials -> 5-8 minutes of a match -> 4 minutes of commercials -> 4-8 minutes for the finish and backstage segment...etc.


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## PacoAwesome (Jun 20, 2011)

JobbyJobberson said:


> I'm so curious as to why people hate everything *but* Punk/Bryan. As if their lone program is a diamond mounted on top a pile of shit. Guess what people, it's all part of it. I don't care how technically impressive their match on RAW was, it doesn't change the fact that it was also one giant colossal waste of time. Why should I care about their feud if the WWE doesn't care? It's hard to care about a match when there's nothing at stake, the outcome has no baring on anything whatsoever, and when you know for a fact the same two individuals will be competing _again_ at the PPV.
> 
> I seriously don't know what the WWE tries to accomplish with all these non title matches featuring champions. I really don't. I have absolutely. no. fucking. idea how a non title match between Punk and Bryan raises the anticipation for a title match between Punk and Bryan... a week after we all saw a title match between Punk and Bryan.
> 
> Someone help me out there.


I just find them a lot more entertaining than the rest of the show. Nothing else appeals to me although I wish that was different. Big/Cena is boring, Clay just dances, Ziggler continuues to be wasted, Miz gets a random RKO, etc. Besides Punk/Bryan, there is just nothing else on RAw that interests me (besides the sexiness of AJ and Eve with glasses.)


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## StoneRockSvgTaker (May 28, 2012)

Big Show and Punk/Bryan were the only good things about it. And the tag match wasn't that bad. The rest was dog shit.


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## Camoron (Aug 24, 2004)

Johncena-hhh said:


> Always in this time of year is a bad product
> 
> No big names .. not interesting storyline ..
> 
> ...


Truth, it's always like this a PPV or two after Wrestlemania as the WM storylines end, they scramble to debut new talent and try figure out the next big storylines. It was pretty awful last year too until Punk's promo. It will get better around MITB leading into SummerFest.


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## animus (Feb 20, 2011)

Maybe its me but I didn't think that the show was that bad. I'd rank it a 5/10. The tag match was actually pretty good, and I'm interested to see what happens w/ Dolph Ziggler and Vicky/Swagger. I wonder if Miz is destined for a face turn and feuds w/ one of the new heels on SD. 

I also think its long past time for 1 champion across the board in all divisions. The rosters are practically merged anyways so whats the point of having both Sheamus and Punk as "Heavyweight Champions" or Santino/Christian as "US/Intercontintal Champions". Hopefully the 3 hour show is a sign that the WWE is ready to rebuild/rebrand its product.


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## PGSucks (Aug 16, 2010)

To clarify, I was watching RAW as I posted my comment (I live on the West Coast).

Well, I wouldn't say it's as bad as it's ever been, but aside from a couple of segments, that RAW was really bad.


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## 189558 (Aug 18, 2009)

Compared to older episodes and years 2000-2003 for example. Raw will probably never be a spectacular show again. Tonights wasn't the best, but it wasn't the worst either. It's that rough time of the year and just like last year things won't turn around until MITB or SummerSlam at the very latest. All just a yearly cycle. And look on the bright side it's not 1995 bad.


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## li/<o (Jan 18, 2009)

This RAW was terrible the only thing that kept me entertain was DB and I mean it.


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## Mike` (Mar 26, 2011)

2nd week in a row where I missed the first 30 minutes of RAW and didn't really care. Overall is just so boring right now. I mean, we had a segment dedicated to promoting a video game that is months away..


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## StoneRockSvgTaker (May 28, 2012)

I've seen people compare it to 2009 bad. That's pretty awful. I barely watched that year but from all accounts most fans seem to hate that year.


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## Scrotey Loads (Nov 22, 2011)

I'm struggling, but it's not been shitty for long enough for me to call it the worst ever era of Raw. WWE was on fire with Rock and Bork Laser, but it's dropped off like crazy. Don't get me wrong, it's been miserably bad since after Extreme Rules, but anyone throwing around "worst ever" should have to sit through the misery of a New Generation Era Raw with Man Mountain Rock fake playing his WWF logo guitar and Mantaur and all that other shit I've tried to block out of my mind. 1995 was basically an atrociously unentertaining live-action cartoon.


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## Brye (Jan 28, 2006)

Honestly if you're not enjoying it to the point where it's intolerable, I'd give it a break. I gave it a break through most of '09 and when I came back I enjoyed it more than ever.

I just don't see how people can keep watching (even with blind hope) if they're actually suffering while watching it.


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## Roger (May 17, 2002)

Didn't watch. 
I told people that eventually this era would turn into the early to mid 90's era of meh wrestling once guys like The Rock, HHH and Brock left again. Guys like Punk and Orton are pretty generic wrestlers that can keep things afloat, but nothing more. At this point, Cena has run out of people to feud with and thus-a boring product. Punk has been champion for about 5 months now and hasn't provided us with anything special.


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## Rated R™ (Jul 2, 2006)

Brye said:


> Honestly if you're not enjoying it to the point where it's intolerable, I'd give it a break. I gave it a break through most of '09 and when I came back I enjoyed it more than ever.
> 
> I just don't see how people can keep watching (even with blind hope) if they're actually suffering while watching it.


Well most of us have nothing to do at nights when RAW is on, and we can get the show in HD on our screens no problem, so why would anyone give it a break when it's right there? Even when it sucks shit doesn't mean it's easy to tune out.


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## MarkOut4Barrett (Oct 13, 2011)

I would say that the show is watchable, but the ending to last nights RAW just made me think why did I bother watching that 2 hour piece of crap. Hopefully it will be better when it turns 3 hours.


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## Brye (Jan 28, 2006)

Rated R™;11514375 said:


> Well most of us have nothing to do at nights when RAW is on, and we can get the show in HD on our screens no problem, so why would anyone give it a break when it's right there? Even when it sucks shit doesn't mean it's easy to tune out.


I guess that's true. But there's always other shows/movies. Or anything else to just occupy some time. It's like if a show gets bad to the point where you just don't watch it until you hear otherwise. I loved Scrubs, still one of my favorite shows ever. But the last season fucking sucked to the point where I stopped after 2-3 episodes and never ended up going back.

Obviously WWE is different because it never ends but what I'm trying to say is that sometimes it feels good to get away.


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## MarkOut4Barrett (Oct 13, 2011)

Also I think its the fact that I stay up till 4am to watch it. It makes the show less enjoyable than it already is.


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## "Dashing" CJ (Apr 3, 2011)

It's not the greatest show in the world these days, but it's not that bad. 

I don't know, I used to get so bent out of shape over how terrible things supposedly were. Now, I just take it for what it is.


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## NewJack's Shank (Jan 29, 2012)

You people overreact. Its no where near as bad as 07-09. Show was solid tonight, Just take RAW for what it is.


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## #1Peep4ever (Aug 21, 2011)

its watchable


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## Fire at Heart (Jun 29, 2010)

It can't get worse can it? I've watched the last month in brief clips on youtube, don't have the will power to watch the full 2 hours how on earth will people manage 3hours?! thank god i can skim through the show on youtube.


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## Real Deal (Dec 8, 2010)

I'm not even enjoying the Punk/Bryan stuff...tired of seeing the same match 4-5 different times.

I haven't watched Raw for two weeks now. I'm waiting for the anniversary Raw, honestly, but I'm afraid that if I wait too long, I'll cash out and stop watching altogether again, like I did when I was in high school and WCW was purchased.

Get rid of the WHC and the US title, add a Cruiserweight belt, develop the tag division (you have an extra hour on Raw for all of this now), and start preparing for the pushes of guys like Rhodes (main event) and Ziggler (dominating the IC division for a while). Take an unused mid-carder and throw him into a decent storyline with the Diva's title, using him to actually make the diva division semi-interesting. Find guys that will be excellent managers, and get them involved. Get people like Hornswoggle off my fucking TV, and let Santino Marella act like more of a badass with a real finisher, rather than some goon that appeals to the kids.

The kids idolize Cena more than someone like Santino, so Vince needs to stop going over-the-top with some of his ideas that are meant to appeal to the younger audience.

Greed, and lack of competition outside of the WWE, is killing wrestling. Sure, the writers aren't helping, and the WWE isn't as talented as it should be, but it all starts with the will to put out a product that draws the interest of the older, more dedicated fans...the people that are sitting back and wondering when the wheels are going to fall off. The idea is to rip back that part of the fanbase, the crowd that the UFC is slowly tearing from the WWE...not letting it go and waiting for all of the kiddies to grow up.


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## 211544 (Feb 21, 2012)

It's terrible, you can see what's happening, because the year is flooded with PPVs they don't really care about RAW;

I mean after OverLimit they weren't talking about what will happen on RAW or anything they were talking about NWO, so you know nothing is going to happen during the time until NWO, rinse and repeat until the next PPV.

And did we really see Punk v Bryan?, AGAIN after Over The Limit and AGAIN we'll see him with the 3rd wheel Kane at NWO.

There's ZERO storylines, throw two people together so they have a feud, then it's just squash match, interference, squash match, interference, week in, week out.


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## Bullseye (Oct 20, 2006)

It's painful to watch because as we saw in WM season the potential for great TV is there, they're just too lazy/ignorant to do it consistently. The Brodus/Show match actually was exciting in the buildup, but became a flop due to fitting in another Sheamus squash. The pathetic repeat cycle of Dolph & Swagger's tag team is beyond stale, and the sooner Santino is off my screen the better.


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## King_Of_This_World (May 17, 2012)

Skipping 90% of the show.

So much of it can be fast-forwarded through and you've missed nothing.

Its poor to say to least, Impact nowadays is the much better show.


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## JohnTheRevelator (Apr 9, 2012)

I think RAW in 2009 was worse.


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## That Guy (Jun 30, 2009)

As bad as it is rihgt now is still has some watchable segments, and a feud or two that interests me (Bryan/Punk and HHH/LEsnar/Heyman). They also have lots of young talent that they can work with and do something better than what they are doing with (Rhodes, Kofi, Ziggler, Tensai, Swagger, Miz, Truth, Barrett and others) yet they are just putting them in random go-nowhere matches for no reason just to fill up the card. 

But besides all that in my opinion, mid 2009 was much worse, didn't even have that one good feud that you would watch it for like we do right now, and 1995 was just unbearable.


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## justintheory (Jun 13, 2007)

i think it is good. Fans are getting what they want. They need to send Santino to superstar.breaking up ziggler and swagger. Make Y2J credible again. No more squash match. last but not least, retire john cena.


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## -trav- (Jun 30, 2006)

Its a shame because Royal Rumble to Extreme Rules was awesome. Since then has been 2009 bad.


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## Twisted14 (Jan 3, 2012)

I thought this week's episode was good for the most part. It was a big improvement over last week's episode and actually the other episodes over the last month too. Since the Raw after Extreme Rules, each episode has been either poor or just plain mediocre. One thing I noticed this week was that they seemed to actually keep with the continuity of the last month's worth of TV. They didn't seem to forget things that just happened or ignore things. It felt like everything was included and they actually put a bit of time and effort into the script.

We got a great Punk v. Bryan match on TV (which I honestly think they put in to apologise for the last few weeks), there was angle advancement in there too. Remember the Raw prior to OTL where we got no build for the WWE title match and pretty much nothing else either? Yeah that was a bad episode. There was a lot of Big Show but for the most part it was all good, and it was nice to see Brodus do something for once. The tag team match was good for the time it was given, and it was awesome to finally see what could be a new path for Ziggler, I've been waiting for months to see that and now is actually a great time for it. Christian v. Miz was good too.

On top of that, John Cena was not on the show, which was really nice considering the John Cena overkill that was last week's episode as well as the awful segments he has been involved in for a couple of weeks now. It was great to have a break from him.

And as others have said this is practically a cycle for the WWE now, this is the low point of the year. Understandable I think after the overtime that went into the road to Wrestlemania and the month after. It's probably just the WWE slowing down a bit before they pick up steam again heading into Summerslam. Does anyone remember what was happening at this time last year? Because I barely do. When I look at the Capitol Punishment card, all I think is 'What the fuck? R-Truth was in a title match with Cena?' I barely remember that shit at all.

TL;DR This week was better than the last.


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## Beermonkeyv1 (Sep 9, 2007)

Completely agree with op raw at the mo presides cm punk/db is unwatchable.

Hopefully they will finally!!!!! Split zig/swag as ziggler is one of my favs and would make raw better. 

Why have santino vs del rio as first match and have it only 45 secs long :/ bored of santino having short matches. 

Putting carlton in a match with sheamus was predictable as hell

Miz vs Christian wasn't bad but again predictable 

Raw hasn't been this bad since the guest host crap


----------



## Apex Rattlesnake (Mar 28, 2012)

Raw is Bore 5 weeks running.

The only good point is D Bryan and Punk.


----------



## JerichoH20 (Jul 16, 2011)

Just like last weeks show, i skipped about an hour. Punk vs Bryan was the only good part. Also, Big Show has suprised me by being actually a good heel.


----------



## cokecan567 (Jan 31, 2012)

this shit is gettin more horrible by the episode. every1 stop watching it on tv and just look it up on you tube later or somethin so this way the ratings drop and they are forced to make it better!!!! tell ur friends and all to this


----------



## YoungGun_UK (Jul 26, 2011)

Dear god that was bad, seriously how is the product this bad. 

Why is Big Show V Cena the main focus of the show? The angle sucks hard. Bryan/Punk/AJ is EASILY the only think slightly good on the show why is it not being treated as the main focus when they have nothing else anyway!

They've also gone backwards which is the problem, Miz was a credible upper mid carder, Ziggler was a decent 'Main Event Jobber' who could give guys great matches. 

The product is in the gutter, I even got annoyed how their using 'WWE Attitude' to sell their games cause today's shit stinks.


----------



## Stadhart (Jan 25, 2009)

Portugoose said:


> The TV shows may "suck", but their PPVs have been top-notch this year save for the Cena-Laurinaitis logic black hole.


actually think you are right with this comment

and TNA has had much better tv this year with Roode as champ


----------



## Jerichosaurus (Feb 1, 2012)

At least we got Daniel Bryan vs CM Punk. A great pay-per-view calibre match and Bryan won! The feud continues! YES! YES! YES!


----------



## Heel (Feb 11, 2006)

Genuinely awful. It's far worse than Smackdown, which is also a very bad TV show. People may laugh at this, but I don't care because it's your loss, but TNA is actually a lot, lot better than any show WWE produces and has been for a number of months. Feel free to say 'TNA sucks, etc' because I won't be the one missing out on entertaining pro wrestling.


----------



## Macho Minion (May 24, 2012)

I'm not stuck in the Attitude Era by any means, but I'll say that today's WWE is over-produced, overly sanitized, far too predictable. The episodes are cobbled together in such a calculated way (that somehow still feels sloppy) that I'm convinced the brass has forgotten about the importance of atmosphere, improvisation, and flavor.


----------



## BKelly237 (May 18, 2010)

Raw is complete garbage right now. The only thing keeping it from being literally unwatchable is Punk and Bryan


----------



## LINK (Dec 21, 2011)

miles berg said:


> I watched for 35 minutes and that was enough.
> 
> Unwatchabke.


That's what I did lol...


----------



## DaftFox (Sep 5, 2011)

If it wasn't for Bryan/Punk I would be taking a break from wrestling again.


----------



## tigerking288 (Jul 11, 2006)

Last night's show was the best for a while. I guess there's that.


----------



## Taggy (Jan 3, 2012)

It isn't that bad! It's just the fact that for the last few months and probably since the summer of Punk the bar was raised a little bit that we now expect more! It is still far better than it was in 2009! In my opinion with the GM building an establishment so to speak and with his band of heels following him as such we are slowly building towards something special, even if it does mean on the way there we have to put up with some average television!


----------



## Zankman Jack (May 19, 2012)

What the hell is wrong with you people?

After, like, *4-5* awful episodes of RAW in a row, in a year where good episodes of RAW can be counted on the fingers of one hand, *this is how you welcome the sixth decent RAW of the year?*

This RAW, "right here", was pretty good.

*The good stuff:*
1. It featured a great Punk vs Bryan match.
2. It showed us that Kane will in fact be involved, and so will AJ. Why is this bad, pray tell? It is not; The feud is getting personal at a reasonable pace and I am pretty sure that Kane won't disappoint in a potential Triple Threat match.
3. It had a good heel promo from Show.
4. Some short but "just about right" backstage segments; We didn't get oversaturated by crap.
5. It had a nice, short confrontation between Punk and Ace, albeit to promote a game, it still made sense.
6. It had two "6/10 TV matches" that made not only Sheamus and Christian, but even Otunga and Miz look good.
7. It had one decent blow-off tag team match, that showed us that R-Boom has more potential in their future (tag team moves, finally).
8. It showed us that the tag champs will be moving on shortly, and that maybe, just maybe, Ziggler will stop tag teaming and move away from Vicky.
9. It featured no John Cena for all of you haters and it had a bunch of patriotic stuff for all of your patriots; (I hate stuff like that, but you don't hear me complaining).
10. It featured/possibly started a nice mini feud between Show and Clay.
11. It showed us that Big Show is an unstoppable god of war, and not in a way that hurts Clay's credibility; heck, even R-Boom don't look bad, despite being fed to Show. Furthermore, it showed us that Show is a legit threat to Cena. 
12. Now, _smarks_, Cena vs Show will not be a great technical bout like Bryan vs Punk, but it does feature two very experienced and decent all in all performers. Having in mind that it is the main event (most certainly), we know that the already decent story will be told in a high quality fashion.
13. It moved on the Cody vs Christian feud (no plausible way that this can be seen as bad), with some nice "minimal" interactions and good stuff from Cody on commentary.
14. It featured, even when Ace and Bryan were out there, somewhat normal commentary from Cole. During the other matches, he was especially good. King was meh, as always.
15. It showed us a possible Ricardo Rodriguez vs Santino Marella feud is likely (I myself am meh about this, but it is a good decision if it does happen). 

*The bad stuff:*
1. The Miz is still without direction, and he was fed to Orton in a stupid way.
2. Orton is now without anything to do, and he didn't start a feud with the Miz, you know, with a mic confrontation; Or with any words at all. It may not even happen.
3. ADR squashed Santino, which was disappointing, and it didn't really make him look all that good (it didn't make up for his previous loses). 
4. Big Show is obviously being built as an unstoppable beast; As I stated earlier, sure, it is understandable, but some people don't like it. At least it is believeable, though, as he was unstoppable basically since he returned back in October or whenever. 

And that is it. Gee, I wonder: Did more Good/Meh stuff or more Bad/Meh stuff happen?

I may have left out something minor (hopefully I didn't), but that is really the essence of this Monday's show.

I just can't believe how you people are subjective/unobjective and how you are not able to differentiate your own opinions/taste from what is factually good for the show.


----------



## Nomad (May 19, 2005)

Calculated is a good way to describe it.

Nothing is really flowing at the moment. WWE seem determined to force "epic" moments on the fans and are over-producing the product to the point where it's hard to suspend disbelief. 

Show/Cena. Meh. We go through this all the time with Show. He goes through cycles where he's the cuddly, child-friendly, giant face and then he switches to the monster heel destroying everyone in his path. Might do one main event, back to midcard. Repeat cycle. It's not interesting and he's not an interesting enough worker to make it work. He's just...OK.

Ace is a poor cross between Vince and Bischoff and WWE again are stuck in this idea that because someone legitimately sucks, they must work as a great heel character. It just isn't the case.

I don't think Ziggler has moved on in any way in the last year, it feels like he's been stuck with Swagger forever. The midcard feuds are transient and unmemorable. The tag division is a mess. The divas division is underused. They're reliant on Triple H to bring excitement. 

It's not great.


----------



## Choke2Death (Jul 26, 2011)

Worst I can ever think of it being. I planned on skipping last night's Raw after reading the results but YouTube'd it anyways and I ended up watching a total amount of about 3 minutes of the complete show with the fast-forward ability being used. They have had not ONE passable Raw since Extreme Rules. Everything has been horrible since then save for Paul Heyman's presence in a couple of Raw episodes after Lesnar "quit". And the amount of TV time Big Show gets is mind-blowing. I just don't give a damn about him and with him taking up so much time, it makes up for some awful shit.


----------



## Masquerade (Oct 19, 2011)

Mark Henry = Ratings


----------



## NathWFC (Apr 15, 2011)

How can 6 people honestly have voted for it being "as good as it's ever been"?! Must be trolls or genuine 'special' people.


----------



## Marv95 (Mar 9, 2011)

NathWFC said:


> How can 6 people honestly have voted for it being "as good as it's ever been"?! Must be trolls or genuine 'special' people.


Or started watching no earlier than 2010.


----------



## Trifektah (Nov 21, 2011)

The thing that bothers me the most is the how little they use the midcard guys.

The reason I liked the Attitude Era so much wasn't because of the main eventers, I was pretty indifferent towards Austin, Rocky, Taker. The reason I loved the attitude era was because of the midcarders like Edge & Christian, Angle, The Dudleys, Kaintei, Jericho, Benoit, Eddie, The Hollys, APA. All of those guys were going to give you an awesome segment every episode.


----------



## Tronnik (Feb 4, 2011)

All they need now is to have Lawler participate in a couple matches and it will be worse than 2009.


----------



## Cynic (Jan 31, 2010)

Raw is as bad right now as it is every year at this time. It's like clockwork: intensity picks up around WrestleMania, then a horrific lull through the springtime, and then things get interesting again by SummerSlam. If it's still this bad after SummerSlam I'll be concerned, but until then I'm prepared to ride it out like every other year.


----------



## TJTheGr81 (Feb 16, 2010)

It's not that bad. There's been some terrible episodes over the past month or so, but its more or less just weak. I don't find it painfully bad like in 09 where I just gave up around this time.


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## charmizard (Sep 3, 2011)

I liked Raw last night! Maybe I'm crazy or in a good mood because of the weather but Big Show's hour long "heel in a suit" promo to start the show didn't bug me half as much as it should've. The unveiling of WWE'13 was really cool (if only CM Punk would work on his lame jokes), the TV match between Bryan and Punk was good (fast forwarded through Sheamus though) but the best thing about it was the show actually felt "whole." They had Ziggler walking out saying he was better than his, then actually followed that up with a backstage segment. Then the tag champions came out at the end to try and stop Big Show, which maybe only happened to put Big Show over, but it's so rare these days to see lower card guys get involved in main event storylines. 

Let's see if it'll continue.


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## sayne (Mar 17, 2009)

Ive not posted here for a while and reading this thread reminds me exactly why. People will find anything to complain about. If you think Raw is bad now then you must have forgotten most Raws between about mid 04 to early 10. For the most part, Raw in that era was shocking. At least Cena loses once in a while these days and Triple H and Shawn Michaels weren't boring everyone to tears with their terrible banter before "berrying" everyone, and dont get me started on the guest hosts. The only redeeming features of that era I can think of were the ECW reunion shows, the Michaels/Jericho feud and the occasional Goldust backstage skit.


----------



## IcedZ (Jun 28, 2011)

Last week show was really one of the worst RAWs I have seen in a while. This week was not that bad but still pretty boring. Storylines right now are just not interesting enough to watch RAW show live, cause it airs on 3am where I live( I watch shows on youtube ). 

I'm really interested to see what will WWE do when RAW goes 3 hours ? I just don't think they could afford themselves this kind of bad shows, ratings will go down big time.


----------



## GothicBohemian (May 26, 2012)

Granted, it's not great but worst in memory? Not even close. It's not good, but it could get worse. It could get so much worse. In fact, I'm rather hoping it does, because then the whole thing will have crossed over into _WTF, this is so bad it's wonderful_ territory, which beats _Why do I feel like I've seen all this before and it wasn't so great the first time_.

More than anything - more than dire backstage segments, more than creativity void - it's the ad breaks that cause me to stop paying attention. I mute the volume during ads and, more than once last night, I looked at the television to realize I'd just missed entire segments because I'd gotten distracted. 

That said, the talent is there, so the matches are really not as bad as you'd think just if all you had to go on was what you read online. Plus, I kind of like the underlying sense that there's a room full of writers having a laugh at the current discontinuity and stupid booking to the point that we get stuff like Big Show commenting on the Brodus dance. Also, there seems to be genuine effort going into starting to give the low-to-midcarders more to do with chances to show some talent and/or personality. Sure, there's not much given to that, but it seems to be improving.


----------



## A-C-P (Jan 5, 2010)

Cynic said:


> Raw is as bad right now as it is every year at this time. It's like clockwork: intensity picks up around WrestleMania, then a horrific lull through the springtime, and then things get interesting again by SummerSlam. If it's still this bad after SummerSlam I'll be concerned, but until then I'm prepared to ride it out like every other year.


Pretty much this, the months of May and June are typically very "slow" in terms of product quality. We were having the same discussions lsat year at this time up until Punk's shoot at the end of June 2011.


----------



## doc31 (Jan 3, 2012)

7 people need to see a doctor.

LOL


----------



## 211544 (Feb 21, 2012)

WWE is an entertainment business over a wrestling one.

Let's see.

1. No Competition (They can cruise each week, and that's exactly what they've been doing)
2. People will always come to the shows (People want to see their favorite wrestlers and only get to do so because they don't come to many places very often in a year)
3. There's no dynamics to the wrestling, I mean I see people praise Bryan/Punk (They are good btw) but their matches only stick out because the rest of the roster is stuck with 5 moves and their signatures.

I saw a match of Regal vs. Psychosis on Youtube, man it's riveting stuff, the match was so refreshing from the bleak squash matches on the typical RAW.






I mean what is this?, a regular Monday night NITRO, puts some current crap to shame, with the diversity that is shown on regular broadcasting.


----------



## Amsterdam (Mar 8, 2010)

I think last night was first Raw in a long time that I flipped the channel and watched something else a majority of the show. The parts I did watch I found myself forcing to sit through. Raw flat out sucks right now, and anyone who is finding it enjoyable to watch right now must be full of shit. 

Guest Host Era 2009 > People Power Era 2012. Yeah, I fucking went there. It really is that bad.


----------



## Brye (Jan 28, 2006)

It's not as bad as '09. Last night at least had Punk/Bryan and the main event beatdown. Raw in '09 literally had nothing. Shit Orton/Cena feud, shit Orton/Trips (not the early '09 one, the mid '09 one) feud and literally nothing else going on. Only time it picked up was when Jerishow was facing DX.

Still better than Raw and SD in mid '07.


----------



## Taggy (Jan 3, 2012)

Mark my word something big will go down pretty soon, possibly the 1000th episode! With the GM building a so called establishment and with his band of heels following him so to speak i can only see there being anarchy in the near future with a faction or maybe just the one guy trying to overthrow the establishment. They aint going to a 3 hour show for nothing, i can see some sort of revolution much like in the video game actually happening, everything is in place!


----------



## John_Sheena22 (Apr 19, 2012)

Was Raw in 1995 worse than now?


----------



## NathWFC (Apr 15, 2011)

Taggy said:


> Mark my word something big will go down pretty soon, possibly the 1000th episode! With the GM building a so called establishment and with his band of heels following him so to speak i can only see there being anarchy in the near future with a faction or maybe just the one guy trying to overthrow the establishment. They aint going to a 3 hour show for nothing, i can see some sort of revolution much like in the video game actually happening, everything is in place!


I want to believe this, but unfortunately I guarantee nothing 'major' will happen in the 1000th episode and the switch to 3 hours will only mean more breaks and more coma inducing filler.


----------



## 211544 (Feb 21, 2012)

Taggy said:


> Mark my word something big will go down pretty soon, possibly the 1000th episode! With the GM building a so called establishment and with his band of heels following him so to speak i can only see there being anarchy in the near future with a faction or maybe just the one guy trying to overthrow the establishment. They aint going to a 3 hour show for nothing, i can see some sort of revolution much like in the video game actually happening, everything is in place!


After the 3 hours are up, everyone will be lambasting the show on these forums because they were so disappointed with the lack of effort, or integrity they could have packed the show with, instead it was just wasted, *MONEY BACK GUARANTEED! *


----------



## dave 1981 (Jan 11, 2006)

Still not 1995 level yet, not yet.


----------



## John_Sheena22 (Apr 19, 2012)

dave 1981 said:


> Still not 1995 level yet,* not yet*.


Does that mean it's gonna reach 1995 level pretty soon?


----------



## AthenaMark (Feb 20, 2012)

I told everyone here that Raw would off without the Rock around and damn...look at the energy and disappointment every week with the exception of the AJ and Bryan segments. Mr "I'm here and this is ALL I HAVE" isn't doing a great job of carrying the company, is he? Still pandering...still not turning heel because he wants that merchandise money...and still full of shit on every level imaginable but then again so is Vince McMahon for allowing the WWE to fall off this bad since Eddie died.


----------



## xerxesXXI (May 15, 2006)

Vince surrounds himself with yes-men. They don't have the courage to tell him he's way out of touch.

He's gonna Puke!! He's gonna PUke!!


----------



## 211544 (Feb 21, 2012)

xerxesXXI said:


> Vince surrounds himself with yes-men. They don't have the courage to tell him he's way out of touch.
> 
> He's gonna Puke!! He's gonna PUke!!


I think the problem is; Vince pays a team of writers who are experts in the field to write a script, and then Vince proceeds to wipe his ass with the script, that explains the crap we are seeing week in, week out.


----------



## xerxesXXI (May 15, 2006)

Yeah but what about guys like Patterson, and his stooges?


----------



## Lennon (Jan 20, 2010)

I wouldn't say BAD per se, just incredibly boring. What I mean by that is we don't have any nonsense like Mae Young squeezing out Mizark's hand spawn or anything, but there is very little of interest on the show. If it wasn't for Punk and Bryan I wouldn't be watching right now. But I'm not gonna go off on a big rant about the state of the WWE, because since around MITB last year the good has far outweighed the bad. This is just the usual post-Mania lull.


----------



## Jobberwacky (Feb 3, 2012)

I'm struggling through. This is easily as boring as it's been since i started watching again the tail end of last year. So i can't compare it to 09 as i can only go on what i've read up on and watched back. I was watching in 07 and that was pretty bad. There's still been plenty of interesting stuff since i came back but it's definitely taken a dive lately. Then it always does around this time of year. The good has easily outweighed the bad, but the bad is pretty bad and doesn't fill me with great hope for the future. Not bad ^ no, just boring.

I know it will pick up again and this is just filler time but it exposes the flaws in the management/creative/roster. These new guys do have talent but they are badly mis-used/and under-used sometimes and it's mainly stars of old that can get my interest. I know they get the better spots mostly, which is a shame but i kind of understand why, even though i don't like it, i don't want to find out what happens when these guys are gone. 

^^ Yes, Vince and his yes men don't help. I do want to find out what happens when he is gone.


----------



## Grass420 (Jul 22, 2011)

Raw is absolute rubbish right now.. i may watch their PPV's via stream but that is all that is tolerable.

It's nice to see good matches on Raw.. but I would rather see less matches, the matches we do have, i would rather them be a little longer (provided it's not full of holds and doing the same shit for 15 minutes)

more storyline.. 

this is what began in the attitude era.. there were shorter matches and more room for storyline.

WWE is not watchable now. If it continues down this path, it will get cancelled.

It would not surprise me if USA is just wanting WWE to go to 3 hours so they can suck as much advertising revenue from them before they go belly up.


----------



## 1TheGreatOne1 (Jul 17, 2011)

It's terrible.

I don't even bother staying up to watch, usually I'd stick with it but, God it's horrible. Reminds me of how bad it use to be in 2009.. actually it's worse, I know they had the shitty guest host segments but at least there was decent feuds going on.

I can't wait until Brock & Rock comes back.

This is seriously dark days for WWE right now & with them doing 3 hours it's gonna fucking bomb.


----------



## pl0p (Sep 25, 2003)

It's been awful since Lesnar left, he was a breath of fresh air. It has no cutting edge whatsoever, Punk has gone stale and he's not a lead face. He will always be a heel in my eyes, there is such a lack of meaningful matches. Who cares if Clay squashes someone for 2 months? ok it was good the first time but it's insulting to have him keep on doing it.

There's no development of mid stars, back in the day the mid talent would have something to fight for, something to aim for like the IC title. IC title? ye nobody cares these days. Same with the Tag Team division. We used to have ladder matches for the IC title and tag team titles, when was the last time that happened? Take cody rhodes/big show, the feud was about embarrassing eachother. The title was barely mentioned.

It's all to nicey nicey, on screen and i imagine backstage. The best TV was when backstage emotion got brought into TV, I know it's harsh when people dont job for people but at the end of the day it shows on TV and adds to the entertainment.

WWE is a entertainment franchise machine now, it is no longer a wrestling company which are able to put on 5* matches, even at PPV's. Wrestlemania is your only exception, Over the Limit was a complete utter joke of a ppv. They have so many talents to work with aswell. 

Ziggler? He should of been pushed ages go, Miz? Sure he's average in the ring but at least he gets heat on the mic and he's lost all credibility lately and i don't know why.

It's all good have a nice running stable company with everyone getting along and having Anti Bullying campaigns but it's making the quality of entertainment dreadful.

I wish someone like old school HBK arrived on the seen and said im not jobbing to you, im better than the rest of you and have a right go at Vince. Someone needs to have the balls, because it's going to fall into a trap of continuing with this shit every week.

Raw is a filler, has no meaningful story developments, no meaningful matches. Adversities pointless promotions and campagins most of the time. God knows what they are going to do with 3 hours.

I've witness nearly every key era that WWE has had and this is by far the worst. I can understand why new fans like this because they have nothing to compare it too. Old fans must be face palming every 10 mins these days while watching raw.


----------



## Scottish-Suplex (Apr 2, 2012)

Screw the haters. I enjoy myself.


----------



## Starbuck (Apr 11, 2008)

I've never been so apathetic towards WWE in my life. Literally nothing interests me right now. Nothing. I don't see how people can say the current time period is better than 2009 because for all the guest host shows, at least there was _something_ fucking happening on them and a bit of oomph about the product. Raw is completely dead atm. It feels and comes across as totally lifeless. It's also barely watchable and completely missable too. I'm holding out for HHH/Lesnar to pick up again tbh. Everything else is pointless and forgettable really.


----------



## deadman18 (Apr 2, 2012)

Just wanna see some wrestling. RAW used to have 5-6 matches a show now only like 3-4 matches.

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using VerticalSports.Com App


----------



## navybluehoodie (Apr 2, 2012)

I actually didn't think last nights raw was that bad. It was a solid show in comparison to the weeks towards over the limit and last weeks show, which was I thought was for sure worst of the year thus far. Since absolutely nothing made sense at all.


----------



## RKO_THUG (Feb 20, 2011)

Everybody is annoying on this site to be honest. Raw is ok you people just need to realize WWE is not perfect and we wont have something big happening every week and when we do have something someone wants to complain. Its just like Dragonball Z it takes a few episodes before something actually really happens. 

Plus we all complain but we still watch and even if you do stop watching you come back anyways sooner than later.


----------



## snakeaustin (Dec 21, 2011)

some stuff is a hit and others are a miss


----------



## Kelly Kelly fan (Mar 14, 2010)

Apart from the CM Punk/Daniel Bryan feud everything else is a mess


----------



## Randy Orton Trapper Of The Year (Aug 11, 2010)

RKO_THUG said:


> Everybody is annoying on this site to be honest. Raw is ok you people just need to realize WWE is not perfect and we wont have something big happening every week and when we do have something someone wants to complain. Its just like Dragonball Z it takes a few episodes before something actually really happens.
> 
> Plus we all complain but we still watch and even if you do stop watching you come back anyways sooner than later.


Lol awesome DBZ reference. it shouldn't have to be only good every few weeks, and i mean good as in average then every raw in between sucks. every week should be a good show then every few weeks they can add some really good angle or something.


----------



## dude69 (Jun 3, 2011)

just watched RAW, voted for It's watchable
i did find this weeks 'main event'/ ending very boring


----------



## NathWFC (Apr 15, 2011)

snakeaustin said:


> some stuff is a hit and others are a miss


Other than DB and Punk, what the hell else is "hit" at the moment?


----------



## Undashing Rom (Sep 17, 2011)

RAW is nothing like it used to be, very boring and expectable. How many times can they shove the same matches every week? Same superstars, no variety?


----------



## HiddenViolence (Jan 15, 2011)

I voted it's watchable. I mean sure alot of stuff is bad but there is still some decent stuff each week. However I get less and less excited about watching RAW each week. 3 hours is gonna suck.


----------



## GOON (Jan 23, 2010)

The show is fine.


----------



## arnoldlee895 (Apr 18, 2012)

RKO_THUG said:


> Everybody is annoying on this site to be honest. Raw is ok you people just need to realize WWE is not perfect and we wont have something big happening every week and when we do have something someone wants to complain. Its just like Dragonball Z it takes a few episodes before something actually really happens.
> 
> Plus we all complain but we still watch and even if you do stop watching you come back anyways sooner than later.


Agreed. Everybody is annoying and no one really is entertaining right now.


----------



## Teh_TaKeR (Jul 2, 2009)

I enjoy it. Just me personally. Yea some angles are not as good or decent as others but as others have stated, it's a downtime right now. I'm Defiantly ready for what they have in store for this summer leading into MITB and SummerFest. unk2


----------



## @MrDrewFoley (Mar 17, 2012)

I do love an unbiased poll question.


----------



## RichDV (Jun 28, 2011)

I'm still enjoying it. The overall show could be better, but the Punk/Bryan/AJ angle has been great both in-ring and in the storyline, so that's keeping me excited. Even though I'm not really into much else at the moment, I don't necessarily dislike everything else neither.


----------



## NathWFC (Apr 15, 2011)

@MrDrewFoley said:


> I do love an unbiased poll question.


I assume you're being sarcastic. I fail to see how the options on the poll are "biased"?


----------



## @MrDrewFoley (Mar 17, 2012)

NathWFC said:


> I assume you're being sarcastic. I fa.il to see how the options on the poll are "biased"?


I didn't say the poll options were biased. I said the question was biased.


----------



## NathWFC (Apr 15, 2011)

@MrDrewFoley said:


> I didn't say the poll options were biased. I said the question was biased.


But surely the fact that the possible answers to the question are varied and unbiased proves that wrong. It's more a case of how the question is worded.


----------



## CaptainCharisma2 (Jan 14, 2009)

I have watched every monday since I was a kid. I'm now 27. Raw isn't as bad as people make it seem but I think my generation and a bit older were spoiled with the attitude era and before that. I think raw will take off soon once brock gets back and this whole big johnny thing with cena ends


----------



## @MrDrewFoley (Mar 17, 2012)

NathWFC said:


> But surely the fact that the possible answers to the question are varied and unbiased proves that wrong. It's more a case of how the question is worded.


An unbiased question would be "What did you think of Raw?"

This question is putting the idea in your head that Raw was bad before you answer the question. That is biased. No amount of answers changes that bias. The asker wants you to agree with him, which is why the question was asked in the way that it was,


----------



## Little Mac (Nov 10, 2011)

Every 3rd response in this thread "Raw sucks except for Bryan and Punk" yet there is still threads about them and solely them killing the product? Oh hell no.


----------



## noob1sm (Jul 26, 2011)

I've been watching since the end of 2010 (right when Barrett and Nexus were running the show) and watched every episode since. The Memorial Day episode had me questioning WTF I was doing... can't say for sure I'll tune in next week.


----------



## Until May (Feb 5, 2011)

some people are just too hard to please

if some of you had your way we wouldnt have wwe because they would have gone bankrupt with some of your ideas


----------



## deadman18 (Apr 2, 2012)

Monday Night Raw is like Saturday Night's Main Event currently in a way idk why

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using VerticalSports.Com App


----------



## Algernon (Jul 27, 2006)

The problem is most of the roster is stale which means theres little reason to care. The only difference between Truth/Kofi vs Ziggler/Swagger in 2012 vs 2009 is Jack Swagger styled his hair. Three years later theyre all in midcard and I care even less about all of them. If these guys are wrestling some pointless midcard match in a years time just get rid of them all. Who cares if they go to TNA. If youre not going to do anything with them just get rid of them. 

And the reason every 3rd response is this show sucks except for Bryan and Punk is because people still love good wrestling. Just so happens to the two most talented workers in the company are providing that, which really is keeping this show from being worse.

Tensai staight up is a MASSIVE FLOP. Who the hell goes from beating Cena and Punk to wrestling on Superstars in a matter of weeks. Its obvious they had big plans for him but when he turned out to be a bust, they panicked and had to turn Show heel. They also had to move Daniel Bryan because Punk has absolutely nobody left to face thats worth a damn. 

I have a feeling that Dean Ambrose will be the hottest thing in wrestling for about three weeks then just be another guy, just like Nexus and just like CM Punk. Just the way things have gone.


----------



## The Pastor (May 19, 2012)

noob1sm said:


> I've been watching since the end of 2010 (right when Barrett and Nexus were running the show) and watched every episode since. The Memorial Day episode had me questioning WTF I was doing... can't say for sure I'll tune in next week.


I actually thought this past week was one of the best Raws they have put on in many a month. There was, gasp, an ACTUAL wrestling match on the card that ran for a good length and the promos were effective and actually developed the current storylines. Ziggler also finally made his move which a lot of has been waiting for a long time. Another great development was I actually found myself interested in Brodus CLay for the first time.


----------



## Mister Excitement (Apr 17, 2006)

It's the worst I have ever seen it before. I feel like completely giving up on it because the only relatively entertaining things going on at the moment are Bryan/Punk and Johnny Ace.


----------



## SarcasmoBlaster (Nov 14, 2008)

I'm struggling through it. For the first time in a long time I not only turn RAW off before it ends, but also feel confident that I won't miss anything important by doing so. For me personally, it's not quite as bad as the guest host era, which was incredibly cringeworthy, but I recognize that they were in a significantly better place star-power wise then than they are now.


----------



## layeth87smack (Aug 4, 2010)

noob1sm said:


> I've been watching since the end of 2010 (right when Barrett and Nexus were running the show) and watched every episode since. The Memorial Day episode had me questioning WTF I was doing... can't say for sure I'll tune in next week.


this...ive been youtube-ing the start middle and end of each week since brock left


----------



## Randy Orton Trapper Of The Year (Aug 11, 2010)

Big Show maineventing is scum.


----------



## LINK (Dec 21, 2011)

It is beyond terrible. They need to just stop everything and go fuck it... new style. Drop the whole WWE universe into the Twilight Zone. Do something outrageous like have Ryder just win both titles and roll with it....YOU KNOW IT. Seriously though just completely swerve the game and have Cena and Sheamus jobbing to Brodus and Santino every week for awhile. While everyone is going what in the fuck?


----------



## EnemyOfMankind (Oct 15, 2006)

Havent watched it since Brock went away. Prolly wont watch till he comes back nothing about RAW interests me at the moment


----------



## RKing85 (Mar 22, 2010)

Pretty bad.

I'm missing whole RAW shows and not even caring. Something that was unthinkable for me even 6-7 months ago.


----------



## StayFresh (May 14, 2012)

.


----------



## Rocky_Mark0000 (May 31, 2012)

7 people need to see a doctor


----------



## BackstreetMan (Jun 1, 2012)

RKing85 said:


> Pretty bad.
> 
> I'm missing whole RAW shows and not even caring. Something that was unthinkable for me even 6-7 months ago.


Preety much the same for me, too. It has come to the point that I watch the PPV's and miss the entire Raws just to see the next PPV, keeping up with the story lines just via Raw reports and Youtubing segments that only interest me.


----------



## Crowking (Oct 19, 2011)

noob1sm said:


> I've been watching since the end of 2010 (right when Barrett and Nexus were running the show) and watched every episode since. The Memorial Day episode had me questioning WTF I was doing... can't say for sure I'll tune in next week.


I had the same reaction. I was seriously considering not watching and doing something else.

I don't understand why they don't just show matches...I mean, it's why I'm watching.


----------



## Straight Awesome (May 23, 2012)

It's not good. I think it's still watchable but only barely. I'm still watching it out of entertainment and not pure loyalty but if the current trend continues I might just give my viewership to TNA fulltime until they fix themselves up...


----------



## The Boy Wonder (Mar 29, 2008)

They need to bring Brock/HHH (and Heyman) back to pick up their feud. That's first and foremost. Then they need to interject Cena back into the WWE Title picture. Lastly, they need to wrap up this Punk/Bryan feud. Sure this feud is good wrestling, but the storyline between the two is weak.


----------



## Ali Dia (Jun 28, 2011)

RAW has been meh for years. Has the odd good thing but surrounded by too much crap. And to think they are going 3 hours is just ridiculous. I just pick and choose what to watch on RAW and more often than not that barely equates to 10 minutes of a show.


----------



## IncapableNinja (Jul 29, 2008)

Starbuck said:


> I've never been so apathetic towards WWE in my life. Literally nothing interests me right now. Nothing. I don't see how people can say the current time period is better than 2009 because for all the guest host shows, at least there was _something_ fucking happening on them and a bit of oomph about the product. Raw is completely dead atm. It feels and comes across as totally lifeless. It's also barely watchable and completely missable too. I'm holding out for HHH/Lesnar to pick up again tbh. Everything else is pointless and forgettable really.


Pretty much of all this. Apathy is absolutely spot-on and largely reflected in this thread. 

If they want to power down until the summer storylines begin, that's cool; but at least use this lull to take a chance on somebody, anybody, and don't bottle it after a couple of weeks to revert back to Cena & Friends present Monday Night Raw...err..SUPERSHOW. It's pretty telling when the main incentive for watching live is to read through the Raw discussion thread as the show is rolling.

I guess CM Punk is there to keep the older audience invested but for me, if he's not involved in a storyline with a huge name, he becomes just another guy and totally forgettable. Take the excellent, cutting-edge Punk away and you're left with Cena as the sole life of the show; for better or for worse, much worse.

Meh. :cesc


----------



## Domingo123 (Jan 12, 2011)

WWE champ gets midcard storylines and matches.. I think that says everything.

US championship? Built-Zero
IC championship? Christian Face? Really? Who cares? Built-crappy
Tag team titles? Really? Jobbers like Truth and Kofi? Built-Zero
WHC title? ADR vs. Sheamus? No heat vs. Boring? Really? Built-crappy
WWE title? Random Punk vs. Bryan matches? No segments? Midcard story? Really? Fuck you.

Brodus realy? Miz jobbed to him and now Brodus jobbed to Slow? True story.. Damn i hate this Miz burrial(i am not a mark of miz, but seriously? The guy first time beaten Cena at WM gets this?) he should be main eventing Smackdown.. Not that talentless DelBoRio or Nobodycares Sheamus.

Some interesting things only going on Smackdown.. Ryback, Sandow and Titus/Darren.

WWE is completely shitty nowadays.


----------



## Kartel (Jun 1, 2012)

the rock coming back is what made me interested in Raw again. since then nothing has really kept me hooked, but the return of thuganomic cena that one show made me realize how much better raw would be if he went back to that old gimmick and took over the show


----------



## TRDBaron (Jun 28, 2011)

They relied heavily on the Rock to bring back ratings. The CM Punk shoot was another save in that department though.
If Rock and Brock didn't return the WWE would be in it's worst position in decades and they can blame themselves for it. This bullshit watered down PG product is just the worst i can remember from the WWE.
Not even the most rabid WWE fan can defend this crap:
- The titles have been reduced to just a prop to get guys over instead of a symbol of prestige.
- There is no build up for any title matches.
- They still aren't building up new talent properly and if they do they bury them as fast as they push them (Miz, Drew Mac anyone?).
- Incoherent storyline writing with no real consequence to what happens in the ring.
- Limited wrestling moves. Come on, i understand you try to minimize injuries but how the fuck can a guy get over by doing headlocks?

The WWE is horrid, there is no excuse for this, ffs Vince wake up or gtfo!
I just can't understand why people bash TNA when WWE is worse.


----------



## dangreenday (Jul 23, 2007)

"i'm Still enjoying it"


----------



## RVP_The_Gunner (Mar 19, 2012)

the past 2/3 weeks i've been enjoying smackdown more, more to do with daniel bryans little cameo roles and the sheer excellence of damian sandow, i also find titus o'neill and darren young quite entertaining. Raw has been aaaaight, monday was actually pretty good imo match wise especially.


----------



## Figure4Leglock (Aug 18, 2010)

i might tune in after No Way Out, i have been on "vacation" from WWE since OTL


----------



## truk83 (Jul 22, 2009)

Raw has a bad case of "Lauranitis", once that is gone I'm certain the show will pick up.


----------



## ryzombie619 (Apr 23, 2012)

TRDBaron said:


> They relied heavily on the Rock to bring back ratings. The CM Punk shoot was another save in that department though.
> If Rock and Brock didn't return the WWE would be in it's worst position in decades and they can blame themselves for it. This bullshit watered down PG product is just the worst i can remember from the WWE.
> Not even the most rabid WWE fan can defend this crap:
> - The titles have been reduced to just a prop to get guys over instead of a symbol of prestige.
> ...


Add to the mix there are not any standout wrestlers. Like I've said before, I have trouble remembering who Swagger, Ziggler, Ryder, Bourne, Daniel Bryan and McIntyre are. The generic names and no gimmicks is boring. The storylines are crap. How many times are we going to see Cena face Tensai or some behemoth at the end of RAW? How many times do we have to see a feud with not build? All the really hot Divas are gone now...WWE is terrible.


----------



## Stroker Ace (Apr 8, 2011)

I'm struggling to get through it. I'm thankful some of my favs are still there to help drag me through the two hours.

Oh man with Raw being like this now, come July it's gonna be fucking atrocious.


----------



## NathWFC (Apr 15, 2011)

I think it says a lot that less than 14% have voted for the top two 'positive' choices in the poll and over 62% have voted for the bottom two choices.

People ridicule us who dare to question the quality of the product, but the poll clearly shows there's a lot more people unhappy with it than not.


----------



## darksideon (May 14, 2007)

Kartel said:


> the rock coming back is what made me interested in Raw again. since then nothing has really kept me hooked, but the return of thuganomic cena that one show made me realize how much better raw would be if he went back to that old gimmick and took over the show


*That gimmick was fine in 03 but in 2012 he looked like an old white guy trying to be cool, the reason Raw sucks is because they care more about merchandise instead of the wrestling.*


----------



## TheVoiceless (Dec 30, 2011)

I think it's still watchable. I just don't see a really good heel on RAW atm. I mean BRyan is on SD and he's not a GREAT heel and big johnny is freaking awful and Show is boring.


----------



## Elstro1988 (Jan 23, 2012)

I have to say I've been disappointed in both Raw and SD for a while now (I voted 'Watchable' because there are still a few diamonds in amongst the rough.) but I'll keep watching because there's still angles/characters I like seeing.

*Main criticisms:*
-*Too much reliance on the same old faces/bringing back names from the past*. It's now got to a point where you can probably place bets on who else is going to come back next month. Brock Lesnar and Jericho (at times) are the only returns that piqued my interest. Still, at least hopefully we won't see bloody Kevin Nash again. He killed the Punk/HHH feud in my opinion and did fuck all in both his runs last year.

-*No variety.* When I first watched wrestling in 00-01, the people I loved were the mid-card, tag teams and women - Lita, the Hardys, Edge and Christian, Dudleys, RTC, Too Cool, T&A, New Age Outlaws, APA etc....all had big stories and good screen time as well as the top carders like HHH, Rock, SCSA, Taker. Of course my judgement was compromised seeing as back then I was a preteen and now I'm an adult.

-*The titles mean piss-all.* Seriously. What happened to a WWE title defence being a Raw main-event? Hell, even the Divas main-evented Raw a few years back. I'd certainly take Layla/Beth as a Raw ME over Cena burying yet another heel with his troll smile and cheesy kids jokes. Title shots are literally pulled out of their arses completely at random. And don't get me started on Santino. Even the cleaning lady wouldn't aspire to be US Champion the way its been devalued.

-*The constant recaps.* Seriously. This started to be really evident with the Kevin Nash-HHH-Sledgehammer incident which got replayed SO often I think I can still act it out word-perfect to this day. Wrestling comes at the expense of seeing HHH get his arm broke by Lesnar 3 weeks ago for the umpteenth time.

-*Matches, even the main-events are barely 5 minutes long*, the women suffering the most. Talk about under-utilisation. A whole roster of talent and they barely get to be seen. NXT and Superstars are the places to go if you want PPV-qualty matches AND decent women's matches. 

I think everything else I feel has already been said (too many squash matches etc.) but I will hold out for the summer to liven things up. This time last year the only memorable thing was R-Truth's heel run (and probably the best story of that time considering the product was in a tedious equilibrium (Cena WWE Champ, Orton WHC for the 437892359th times apiece)


----------



## DegenerateXX (Apr 2, 2012)

My beef with Raw and Smackdown:

- Too many recaps. It's a cycle like this: Big thing happens on Raw, they replay it half the night. Then the replay it on Superstars. Then they replay it on Smackdown. Something big happens on SD, time to rehash it on Raw! And then you'll have the same promos being replayed again and again after that. That Triple H getting his arm "broken" by Lesnar was rehashed SO many frickin' times.

- Squash matches! Shallow ass characters like Blubber Clay, Antonio Cesaro, Roidback, and to a lesser degree Sandow and Tensai, winning match after match with no rhyme or reason. Just the same old "superstars" like A-Ry, Yoshi, Jinder, Slater, Kidd etc losing every match of their careers. This filler crap needs to stop. No one cares about most of these characters. Sandow is the only one that's showing a shred of what it takes to be a superstar.

- Predictability and match quality. Now, most matches on Raw and SD have always been pretty predictable, but it's just terrible now. Who wants to watch a match when the outcome is so obvious? Part of what makes wrestling fun is rooting for who you like, but anyone who has any sense on how the WWE books matches will smell who the victor of a match is right away, thus killing the joy. And the matches themselves are not very good. If you're lucky, you'll get a solid main event match, but that's it. 

- Title owners mean nothing. Punk doesn't main event PPVs. Cena does. EVERY. SINGLE. ONE.

- Feuds and storylines are crap with a capital C R A P. The only "feud" I've seen that was worth a damn at all lately, was the Punk and Jericho feud. Bryan and Sheamus had a decent run too, but same-old-crap-Cena is always there to bore us with his feuds, matches, and corny ass promos.

- No TV time for many stars. People loved Zack Ryder, but they decided to pull him off of Raw. Brilliant idea! The Miz? He shows up a bit more, but only so he can job. And who really gets microphone time anyways? Cena, Punk, Sheamus, Bryan, and whoever else gets a lucky moment.

- Divas division and the tag team division. Do I have to even go there? The tag team division has been bad for a while, and while it is slowly getting better, I don't see much promise in the end. Divas? Forget it.

- No superstar buildup. I guess technically Sheamus and Punk have been "built up" into top main event level babyfaces, but other than those two, Cena, and Orton, what else is there? They need to be building up more stars, specifically faces, but they do so at such a snails pace, I don't think they're trying at all. We have plenty of credible heels, but the face department in both midcard and main event scene is just poor.

- Over reliance on using older stars. Is our current roster that bad or is the WWE not using them to their full potential? You make the call.


----------



## Hydra (Feb 22, 2011)

It's been very boring since after ER. Why? They once again killed the Cena turning heel angle. All he needed to do was lose to Lesnar. They still could have written Lesnar out with Triple H coming and taking away Lesnar's perks. The brawl would have still happened and Lesnar still could have quit or been fired. This way the whole Cena maybe turning heel would have been still interesting and they would have had an angle to pull the damn trigger. But now that he "rose above the hate" and "overcame the odds" FOR THE MILLIONTH TIME, we don't give a shit anymore about him turning heel. He's back to his stale, shitty children's hero. And we're stuck with it. What the fuck can happen to him now to make him turn heel? Its frustrating because there's maybe one interesting feud in Punk/Bryan which can be awesome but there are hardly given time to develop their story. Theres barely any midcard feuds going on. Why isn't Santino in a feud?? What the fuck are they doing with the Miz. Tag-Team division is still shitty even though they said they were improving it. Divas Division is just lolz right now and it will continue to be until Kharma returns. But whats the marquee fued? Big Show and Cena which is predictable and lame to say the least. Big Show vs. Cena is going to close NWO and its going to be a shitty match where Big Show dominates and Cena wins by doing 5 or 6 moves for the win. Same old shit.


----------



## Jupiter Jack Daniels (Jul 18, 2011)

If you think RAW is totally shitty now, it is better than RAW in 1995.

At least we don't have Men On a Mission vs. Ben Jordan & Tony Roy or Jean-Pierre Lafitte vs. Jerry Flynn as main events.

But, seriously, RAW is only horrible because, as I've stated numerous times, the competition just isn't there. What made RAW one of the best wrestling shows of all time was them attempting to get ahead in the ratings against Nitro.

Remember how back in the day, if you didn't watch RAW, you likely missed something big? Nowadays, if you miss RAW 1 week, you pretty much get the same exact thing happening the next week with a different guy added into the mix. Lack of intelligent writers booking the show, who are trying to damn near eliminate the "sports" aspect from sports entertainment. It's being portrayed as just a random TV show, except none of the storylines make any sense.


----------



## Jacare (Apr 29, 2011)

Terrible, the worst it's ever been since I've been watching. I stopped watching the week after Heyman came out and announced Brock was leaving. Has he returned since than?


----------



## yoseftigger (Mar 18, 2008)

Trouble Trouble said:


> If you think RAW is totally shitty now, it is better than RAW in 1995.
> 
> At least we don't have Men On a Mission vs. Ben Jordan & Tony Roy or Jean-Pierre Lafitte vs. Jerry Flynn as main events.
> 
> ...


Actually, you get recaps and recaps of those recaps. :bron2


----------



## Fatcat (Aug 26, 2011)

Trouble Trouble said:


> Lack of intelligent writers booking the show, who are trying to damn near eliminate the "sports" aspect from sports entertainment. It's being portrayed as just a random TV show, except none of the storylines make any sense.


Not are they trying to eliminate the sports part, but they are also doing a good job removing entertainment from the WWE.


----------



## johnsos7 (Aug 10, 2011)

It's bad.

Mainly because Punk & Bryan are absolute bores to watch on TV. Apparently a lot of others think that considering their matches actually lose ratings. It looks like these two internet darlings are not the "saviors" the internet fans claimed they would be.

The two can wrestle but make for some extremely boring television. Them, Sheamus and ADR are the problem with WWE right now.


----------



## Jupiter Jack Daniels (Jul 18, 2011)

yoseftigger said:


> Actually, you get recaps and recaps of those recaps. :bron2


Yeah and you get pretty much the same thing you missed last week happening again, with an extra character involved.


----------



## James Curran (Jan 19, 2011)

I'm still enjoying it...

- Big Show(Monster) destroying people.
- Good GM
- John Cena
- Good feud between Punk/Bryan/Kane
- Kane looks dominate
- Going 3 hours
- 1000th show soon.


----------



## Choke2Death (Jul 26, 2011)

TheRockPwnsAll said:


> It's been very boring since after ER. Why? They once again killed the Cena turning heel angle. All he needed to do was lose to Lesnar. They still could have written Lesnar out with Triple H coming and taking away Lesnar's perks. The brawl would have still happened and Lesnar still could have quit or been fired. This way the whole Cena maybe turning heel would have been still interesting and they would have had an angle to pull the damn trigger. But now that he "rose above the hate" and "overcame the odds" FOR THE MILLIONTH TIME, we don't give a shit anymore about him turning heel. He's back to his stale, shitty children's hero. And we're stuck with it. What the fuck can happen to him now to make him turn heel? Its frustrating because there's maybe one interesting feud in Punk/Bryan which can be awesome but there are hardly given time to develop their story. Theres barely any midcard feuds going on. Why isn't Santino in a feud?? What the fuck are they doing with the Miz. Tag-Team division is still shitty even though they said they were improving it. Divas Division is just lolz right now and it will continue to be if/when Kharma returns. But whats the marquee fued? *Big Show and Cena which is predictable and lame to say the least. Big Show vs. Cena is going to close NWO and its going to be a shitty match where Big Show dominates and Cena wins by doing 5 or 6 moves for the win. Same old shit.*


Or Big Show goes over in No Way Out and they have another match where Cena does just what you said here.

Really, they fucked up the moment they reverted Cena back into the smiling superhero. With the heel turn teases, I was actually interested in what would happen next but now they have flushed all the "character development" from the Kane until Brock Lesnar feuds down the toilet and we're stuck again with the same ol' annoying Cena.


----------



## Jupiter Jack Daniels (Jul 18, 2011)

Choke2Death said:


> Or Big Show goes over in No Way Out and they have another match where Cena does just what you said here.
> 
> Really, they fucked up the moment they reverted Cena back into the smiling superhero. With the heel turn teases, I was actually interested in what would happen next but now they have flushed all the "character development" from the Kane until Brock Lesnar feuds down the toilet and *we're stuck again with the same ol' annoying Cena*.


You're only stuck because you continue to watch, just to come on here and run it down even more.

Whether Big Show/Cena closes or not really doesn't matter. Match placement doesn't make a match any better or any worse.

But at least you are now starting to put blame on somebody besides Cena, especially when it's not his fault.


----------



## Choke2Death (Jul 26, 2011)

Trouble Trouble said:


> You're only stuck because you continue to watch, just to come on here and run it down even more.
> 
> Whether Big Show/Cena closes or not really doesn't matter. Match placement doesn't make a match any better or any worse.
> 
> But at least you are now starting to put blame on somebody besides Cena, especially when it's not his fault.


I don't know if you're talking about me, but I skipped this week's Raw and the results didn't make me regret it at all. (I youtubed it and watched a handful of seconds but nothing that made me want to check out the whole thing) I'm not looking forward for this Monday's episode either but I will watch No Way Out just for the potential of a good crowd in New Jersey.

And I never said anything about what main events or not, it's just a boring feud that we've seen before and nothing meaningful can come out of it other than a 'top heel' in his mid-40s or yet another "Cena overcomes the odds" pay off.

And yes, of course, Cena is not the sole person to blame but he does have _some_ creative control to want to at least make his character a bit more bearable towards non-kids. But that's beside the point as I know despite all his control, there's only so much Cena can do. He even has said that he's tried to get the WWE Championship design changed but can't make the ultimate decision on that one since that fossil Vince calls all the shots.


----------



## Jupiter Jack Daniels (Jul 18, 2011)

Choke2Death said:


> I don't know if you're talking about me, but I skipped this week's Raw and the results didn't make me regret it at all. (I youtubed it and watched a handful of seconds but nothing that made me want to check out the whole thing) I'm not looking forward for this Monday's episode either but I will watch No Way Out just for the potential of a good crowd in New Jersey.
> 
> And I never said anything about what main events or not, it's just a boring feud that we've seen before and nothing meaningful can come out of it other than a 'top heel' in his mid-40s or yet another "Cena overcomes the odds" pay off.
> 
> *And yes, of course, Cena is not the sole person to blame but he does have some creative control to want to at least make his character a bit more bearable towards non-kids*. But that's beside the point as I know despite all his control, there's only so much Cena can do. He even has said that he's tried to get the WWE Championship design changed but can't make the ultimate decision on that one since that fossil Vince calls all the shots.


What does the bold have to do with why RAW sucks as a whole? No matter what WWE does with his character, he still will be the focal point of the show and the remainder of it will likely still suck.

It's obvious that Cena's segments are horrible. What does that have to do with why every other segment is horrible?


----------



## Chicago Warrior (Oct 18, 2010)

Yeah it pretty boring right now.


----------



## Choke2Death (Jul 26, 2011)

Trouble Trouble said:


> What does the bold have to do with why RAW sucks as a whole? No matter what WWE does with his character, he still will be the focal point of the show and the remainder of it will likely still suck.
> 
> It's obvious that Cena's segments are horrible. What does that have to do with why every other segment is horrible?


You were talking about Cena getting blamed, and his character is the main issue on that front, so I brought it up.

As for the rest of the show, they put no effort into it either, so that sucks too. Midcarders like Kofi do nothing but have the same matches with different opponents every week and even CM Punk who's supposed to be champion never gets anything to advance his feud other than some random match spot in the middle of the show where he and his opponent cross path or are against each other in a tag match.

The only storyline that is ever interesting and gets the most development is whatever Cena is in but right now, he is involved in a boring feud, which makes unbearable TV shows weekly from beginning to end.


----------



## Jupiter Jack Daniels (Jul 18, 2011)

Bottom line, booking is why RAW is so bad. Has nothing to do with the actual characters but more so the way they are booked.

Problem is, as long as people continue to watch and WWE doesn't drop under 2.0, it will always be bad. I just find it weird how people blame certain characters whenever RAW sucks. A combination of factors is why RAW sucks.

And what sucks even more is that WWE won't change Cena because nobody at the moment is capable of replacing him and Vince realizes that RAW will be even worse without the top guy.

And now since Orton is suspended and Cena has a few Smackdown dates, watch how quick people run down Smackdown when Cena is part of it, ignoring the fact that Smackdown sucks more than the worst show TNA has ever had.


----------



## Svart (Jun 11, 2011)

yoseftigger said:


> Actually, you get recaps and recaps of those recaps. :bron2


----------



## virus21 (Sep 22, 2009)

Like I said in the Raw thread last week: Why don't they dress Cena up like Jesus and get it over with? Seriously, the man has enough propganda towards him, the third world dictators are taking notes. That and the recaps are two big reasons why Raw sucks right now


----------



## SPCDRI (Mar 15, 2010)

Recaps of stuff that literally happened 3 minutes prior on the very episode of RAW that you are watching.

Big Show cut the promo. 3 minute commercial break. RECAP OF THE PROMO THAT WE JUST WATCHED. And just in case you missed the original airing and the recap it was recapped 40 minutes later. 3 RECAPS OF SOMETHING IN ONE HOUR. 2 RECAPS OF SOMETHING WE WATCHED 40 MINUTES AGO!


----------



## Svart (Jun 11, 2011)

Put it this way. Raw plays out like one giant advertisement that promises good things but never delivers. Not to mention all the twitter ankle hugging going on. There's absolutely nothing creative about the product, nor is it deep.


----------



## NathWFC (Apr 15, 2011)

That was an absolute fucking disgrace, it's as simple as that. I honestly cannot believe what I just sat through. That was genuinely the worst two hours of a wrestling show I can remember since I started watching around '97. Raw and the WWE has sunk to unthinkable new depths tonight.

Well done for being a star again by the way Cena! You hypocritical, bullying, piece of shit.


----------



## alliance (Jul 10, 2010)

Tonights ending was a Travesty..


----------



## Clique (Sep 9, 2007)

Haven't watched a full episode since Heyman's first night back. Last week I watched one match and this week I'm not going to bother at all. I just can't.


----------



## Wonderbook (Jun 5, 2012)

There is no hope. There just isn't. Tonight's ending was embarrassing. Moving this to 3 hours is like Taking a shit into a piss soup.


----------



## DegenerateXX (Apr 2, 2012)

More Cena huh? I am seriously considering SKIPPING Raw altogether.


----------



## Marv95 (Mar 9, 2011)

This was like a random Thunder in 2000, only more boring and watered down.


----------



## kobra860 (Jan 29, 2005)

Tonight's episode was on a 2009 level of awfulness. They have a great feud with Bryan, Kane, and Punk and they decide to main event Raw with Cole in his underwear covered in BBQ sauce.


----------



## Huganomics (Mar 12, 2010)

Pretty shit, but it was definitely worse in Summer of '09.


----------



## Stroker Ace (Apr 8, 2011)

Anyone who is optimistic about 3hrs of Raw should look at that main event from tonight.

THAT is our future, if Raw had already gone three hours that shit would've went on for a lot longer.

What makes this strange is this whole night seemed to be about embarrassing Cole. What the fuck did he do backstage?


----------



## uniden (Jan 30, 2012)

People are getting seriously outraged by the quality of the product, and rightfully so. We are totally going watch the next RAW though,hoping it can't get any worse right?


----------



## Therapy (Jul 28, 2011)

Can you imagine your whole life you worked to main event WWE. 10 years in, blood, sweat, broken bones, you're finally getting some heat and need that push to really get going and.

Michael Cole is main eventing..

WWE is taking giant shits on talent with that crap.


----------



## WTFWWE (Apr 10, 2012)

uniden said:


> People are getting seriously outraged by the quality of the product, and rightfully so. We are totally going watch the next RAW though,hoping it can't get any worse right?


LOL no it is the wrong attitude to take if you don't wanna watch just don't and do something else like me for 3 weeks now I quit watching RAW and tonight I watched E3 with friends which was much better than BBQ underpants main events.

Anyone who defends PG can fuck off now after tonight.


----------



## Kabraxal (Jun 14, 2004)

Therapy said:


> Can you imagine your whole life you worked to main event WWE. 10 years in, blood, sweat, broken bones, you're finally getting some heat and need that push to really get going and.
> 
> Michael Cole is main eventing..
> 
> WWE is taking giant shits on talent with that crap.


I'd hate to be in the locker room... it must be hell with everyone just knowing no matter what they do McMahon will push that shit over them.


----------



## Sarcasm1 (Aug 24, 2011)

The wrong storyline is main eventing. The main storyline should be Punk/Bryan/Kane/AJ.


----------



## uniden (Jan 30, 2012)

WTFWWE said:


> LOL no it is the wrong attitude to take if you don't wanna watch just don't and do something else like me for 3 weeks now I quit watching RAW and tonight I watched E3 with friends which was much better than BBQ underpants main events.
> 
> Anyone who defends PG can fuck off now after tonight.


we still gonna watch it though? It's the return of Vince. I mean come on. Vince.

Vince is going to save this show.


----------



## GillbergReturns (Aug 9, 2011)

You have to focus on the positives. This is what you get when you demand that John Cena stays out of the championship scene.

The show still has to revolve around him and now he's gotta keep his momentum by feuding with jokers.

It won't last forever though. Come summer time he'll be feuding with Bryan for the belt and Bryan's getting by the week.


----------



## kobra860 (Jan 29, 2005)

uniden said:


> we still gonna watch it though? It's the return of Vince. I mean come on. Vince.
> 
> Vince is going to save this show.


Yeah but we'll have to endure at least 2 hours of filler and bad matches.


----------



## WTFWWE (Apr 10, 2012)

uniden said:


> we still gonna watch it though? It's the return of Vince. I mean come on. Vince.
> 
> Vince is going to save this show.


Nope.


----------



## Jupiter Jack Daniels (Jul 18, 2011)

I didn't know we had psychics on this forum. People already shitting on the 3 hour RAW, a month before it even has began.

This proves that we, the IWC, will shit on anything.


----------



## BlakeGriffinFan32 (Aug 18, 2011)

Trouble Trouble said:


> I didn't know we had psychics on this forum. People already shitting on the 3 hour RAW, a month before it even has began.
> 
> This proves that we, the IWC, will shit on anything.


I' not going to knock the idea. However, after what we saw to end tonight's RAW, it's hard to optimistic.


----------



## Ali Dia (Jun 28, 2011)

Trouble Trouble said:


> I didn't know we had psychics on this forum. People already shitting on the 3 hour RAW, a month before it even has began.
> 
> This proves that we, the IWC, will shit on anything.


No it shows that 3 hour RAWs will suck and no matter who you are, people can see that WWE are struggling to put out a decent 2 hour show let alone one that goes 3 hours


----------



## kobra860 (Jan 29, 2005)

Trouble Trouble said:


> I didn't know we had psychics on this forum. People already shitting on the 3 hour RAW, a month before it even has began.
> 
> This proves that we, the IWC, will shit on anything.


When's the last time there was a solid 3 hour Raw? There has never been one. Usually they'll save something good in the last half hour but why waste so much time before?


----------



## AllAmerican(x2) (Oct 5, 2011)

I've been struggling through for a while. Any of my friends who are wrestling fans have slowly been giving up. After tonight, I'm joining them. After each segment, I kept thinking 'This is gonna get better, right?'. The opening 10 minutes and closing 15 minutes of the show was some of the worst TV I can remember. I'm not a Cena hater (nor am I a huge fan), but lately, I just can bear listening to him. There's pretty much nothing exciting going on, and they've even ruined the best thing they had going (Punk/Bryan) by adding Kane to the mix.

I'll check out the results, but for now at least, I am totally done with Raw.


----------



## GCA-FF (Jul 26, 2011)

Just when you think they couldn't make it any worse, they somehow find a way to do it.


----------



## Jupiter Jack Daniels (Jul 18, 2011)

R.Scorpio said:


> No it shows that 3 hour RAWs will suck and no matter who you are, people can see that WWE are struggling to put out a decent 2 hour show let alone one that goes 3 hours


But you don't know that. Three hours can provide for either more wrestling and storyline development or more recaps of something that just happened 25 minutes ago.

Either way, this is once again the IWC bitching and complaining about anything and in this case, about something that has yet to happen.

I just wonder if people like you are so insistent on 3 hour RAW being shitty and saying RAW will suck no matter what, what is your reason for watching? Why are you still watching?

The same thing you said is likely what others said about WWE between 1994-1996. And look what happened after that, when RAW gained an extra hour.


----------



## WTFWWE (Apr 10, 2012)

Trouble Trouble said:


> But you don't know that. Three hours can provide for either more wrestling and storyline development or more recaps of something that just happened 25 minutes ago.
> 
> Either way, this is once again the IWC bitching and complaining about anything and in this case, about something that has yet to happen.
> 
> ...



Totally off topic but you should remove that quote. Punk gets a lot of shit from fans today and isn't liked as much.


----------



## blazegod99 (Feb 26, 2008)

If you have to ask............... i think HHH likes to fuck with the internet wrestling fans and so does Vince. they know the wrestling purists like to see entertaining, mostly serious wrestling with good promos and storylines but the casuals dont seem to give a shit. they like characters, jokes, characters who are jokes(the face of WWE), ETC..... And thats fine. A lot of diehards will just slowly turn away and stop watching.... then tune back in once something good actually happens LOL. I think we're all tuning in to see if WWE does shit right. its not like they dont have the potential or the wrestlers(Punk, Bryan, Cody, Ziggler, etc....)


----------



## taker328 (Dec 24, 2009)

Not really fair to compare to 94-96. They had to step up it up cause a little company called WCW was running shit from 96 to 98.

Times are different. We don't have a WCW doing something innovative and revolutionary. Things IMO will not change until there comes another WCW.


----------



## TripleG (Dec 8, 2004)

Its, at best, watchable, and at worst...well you saw the ending tonight. That spoke for itself really.


----------



## Jupiter Jack Daniels (Jul 18, 2011)

taker328 said:


> Not really fair to compare to 94-96. They had to step up it up cause a little company called WCW was running shit from 96 to 98.
> 
> Times are different. We don't have a WCW doing something innovative and revolutionary. Things IMO will not change until there comes another WCW.


My point is, people where complaining back then about WWE sucking but WWE was afraid of losing them to the competition. So, they stepped things up, eventually adding an extra hour to RAW and look what happened.

But now, if WWE loses fans, it's not like they can switch back and forth from Nitro and RAW like back in the day, those lost fans won't come back. So, I feel Vince wouldn't add an extra hour to RAW just to lengthen the shit fest that RAW has become. I think RAW will get better but some people refuse to be optimistic because they can never be satisfied.


----------



## DoubleDeckerBar (Aug 10, 2011)

Tonight's episode was horrendous and left a sour taste in my mouth that I'd actually devoted 2 hours of my life to watching this garbage, felt like I'd been robbed.

Why in the blue hell is Michael Cole main eventing over the WWE Champion? WCW in 2000 weren't even this stupid.


----------



## Theproof (Apr 9, 2009)

Just got done watching it. Can't believe another non-wrestler is in the main event. Pathetic.


----------



## black_napalm (Mar 31, 2010)

this is bad. historically bad. some of the worst RAW's ever going on right now. these angles are just throwaway garbage, especially opening and closing segments. and no, i'm not one of those who complain about everything. it's just that bad


----------



## zkorejo (Jul 2, 2010)

Lol.. Its so bad I watched the entire Raw in 15 minutes. Thank You Youtube!


----------



## Venomous (Jun 20, 2011)

I hope you all get used to this, WWE has no reason to change and will continue to produce shit like this abomination of a RAW we had tonight for years to come. Get used to Cena always closing the show whether he's champ or not and forgettable, lame storylines. WWE's response - "Don't like it? Well then Tough shit! go watch TNA mwahahahahaha!"


----------



## zkorejo (Jul 2, 2010)

Worst thing is, they are actually teasing us and making fun of us with those 1000 RAW special moments like Triple H's one. 
they are making it so easy to compare to what Raw was and what it has become now. Fuckin assholes.


----------



## Jeffy (Jan 3, 2012)

last 4 weeks i just downloaded raw and watched it in 10 min - if it didn't show up in wblog that I visit, I would 100% forget about it completely. Both shows ARE SOOOO BAAD, crowds again cheering Cena like mindless zombiesfor that unfunny boredom, bigslow and 5-6 matches EVERY week - bigslow beating something, R-boom smiling and winning, Santino winning, Brodus winning, Sheamus winning, Punk and Bryan having screwed finish match and Cena bullying someone. FU WWE, this is fucking bullshit! Only good thing last night was ECW promo.

I watched wrestling for about a year now, watched a lotta stuff, but lately while watching raw I was thinking if I got retarded in last year because this is absolute crap - then I wathed something from the past and last year and it was good, so these raw's are at fault not me getting fed up of wrestling.


----------



## wwffans123 (Feb 13, 2009)

since The Rock and Brock Lesnar,Chris Jericho,Triple H and Shawn Michael,Undertaker those superstar out of the shows,

it has been fucking awful.


----------



## Dusty Roids (Sep 14, 2011)

this raw was so bad I skipped through it most of the time. didn't even reach to the main event because it was cena with yet another non-wrestler main eventing.


----------



## ultimatekrang (Mar 21, 2009)

i skip though every raw, its the only way i can get through it. but normally there is something good in each show.. this one, NOTHING. the typical same old shit. really depression state of affairs right now. 

same old story with wwe, one step forward, 2 steps back.


----------



## NathWFC (Apr 15, 2011)

Distinct rise in the number of votes for 'it's as bad as I can ever remember', and I'm not surprised after last night, it was absolutely abysmal beyons words.


----------



## BKelly237 (May 18, 2010)

watchd about 5 minutes during a commercial break from Spurs-Thunder, then read online that the main event consisted of a half naked Michael Cole covered in BBQ sauce. So glad I'm not watching this show anytime soon.


----------



## wizard887 (Apr 7, 2012)

Last night was defiantly better than the week before, not saying a lot but it was a relief not to have to see Big Show's angry hippo impression.


----------



## Von Doom (Oct 27, 2010)

The ending last night was one of the worst I've seen in my entire history of watching Raw.


----------



## joshman82 (Feb 1, 2010)

ok, as far as matches and ya know, wrestling goes, raw was solid. they guys i had forgotten about on tv,and they all had good matches. the two jobbers in rybacks match did really well too i thought. the problem is that there wasnt any real storylines....which is a double edged sword because we always complain that its the same guys on tv/not enough wrestling. then we complain about it no being good when they do have more wrestling/new guys on tv. the cycle never ends


----------



## lesje (Mar 13, 2006)

Havent watch wwe in a month or so, fucking John Cena being the focus of the entire show pisses me off, if I would believe in Jezus I would be praying to him and ask if he could just have a truck drive him over that sends him into retirement. I hate that guy so much, cant stand the sight of m.


----------



## doinktheclowns (Feb 27, 2011)

Im a massive WWE mark, and stick through think and thing, but seriously RAW at the moment is fucking awful every feud almost in the WWE now is shit, I have no idea what they are doing.

Im not a person who usually ever thinks this but seriously most fans could book RAW better now.

I dont know whether its creative, vince or HHH fault but its sucks so bad that for the first time in 2 years I have missed an episode of RAW by choice.

Punk Vs Cena is the only thing that can save this truely awful shite.


----------



## GaryGee6 (Jun 4, 2012)

Raw, match wise except the last two was actually decent, they need to give Ryback a actual opponent and i thought CM Punk vs Kane was actually 8/10 and once again should've been main event because its in the wwe title picture, but that's WWE biggest problem, there not going to make or push anyone as far when john cena is holding onto the main event every week and making out he's superman and the ending was the worse i have ever seen in wrestling! after giving WWE another shot back in 2011 am maybe gonna be forced to stop again


----------



## CamillePunk (Feb 10, 2011)

Voted watchable, but the last two Raws have tested that. Turned the TV off when Tensai came out. Read up on what happened after and very glad I did. (Y)


----------



## wizard887 (Apr 7, 2012)

One of the biggest problems at the moment imo is it's all too predictable, you know who's going to win every match theirs no suspense and it just becomes a snooze fest.


----------



## RuthStar (Jul 9, 2008)

I'm really struggling with it at the moment, I've been watching RAW weekly again since around Elimination Chamber time after taking a break from wwe a little after Jeff Hardy left and I'm starting to begin why do I bother?

First I've witnessed some embarrasing skits like The bloody Stooges and R-Truth trying to be Sherlock Holmes then I've witnessed Cena/Cole with Cole smothered in hot sauce be treated as more important than the feud involving the WWE title.

I'd give up completely, if it wasn't for the Punk/Bryan feud w/AJ Lee involved and my love of Randy Orton (I understand why he isn't on TV atm, his own fault there), that feud is all WWE has going for it imo...and maybe Dolph Ziggler if they bother to push him correctly.

ETA: and I'm not sure why 2009 is getting slated, that was a pretty decent year for me (Well, till September/October). I LOVED Legacy and Jeff Hardy and CM Punk in that year. Divas divison wasn't a complete joke either. Puzzled why so many dislike 09 so much..


----------



## King_Of_This_World (May 17, 2012)

The past 10 hours of Raw (last 5 shows) I reckon i have fully watched about 1-2 hour max out of, the rest is just completely skippable.


----------



## Brye (Jan 28, 2006)

I had about 8 friends over last night. 4 of them were informed wrestling fans and the other four hadn't really kept up since like '05 other than the occasional PPV at my house here and there. Needless to say, they actually seemed to think quite a bit of the show was funny but the ending was less than desirable to try and convince someone to watch the show. ~___~


----------



## GothicBohemian (May 26, 2012)

After last night, I'm coming around to thinking it's about as bad as I've ever seen. You know, if I was totally incapable of getting a laugh out of low brow humour I wouldn't be watching wrestling in the first place. I can chuckle at mindless idiocy, but _30-something-going-on-10-years-old_ bully Cena (who I'm apparently supposed to cheer for) and his beatdowns on non-wrestling talent, featuring gratuitous use of fire extinguishers, is just shit. 

Maybe it's me. Maybe I'm not watching this stuff in the right frame of mind anymore.


----------



## NathWFC (Apr 15, 2011)

This will be my last post in the Raw section for a while, I'm done with this shit. The real talent in the company is being wasted, the writers haven't got a fucking clue how to do their job, the booking is a joke, there's no mid-card/tag division, and the way absolutely everything revolves around Cena and the way the world titles now mean about as much as one of Cena's turds is just sickening. I honestly believe the WWE I used to love is dead and it's not coming back, at least not for a long, long time. It's only getting worse and I'm not sitting through this painful, incoherent, pointless, PG, Cena revolved fucking bullshit any longer.

Anyone who continues to defend this utter crap is gone in the head.


----------



## Scissor Me Daddy-O!! (Apr 13, 2011)

NathWFC said:


> Anyone who continues to defend this utter crap is gone in the head.


Two Words: Zig gler

the think that's making me tune in. other than that, yep.


----------



## Y2JFAN811 (Jun 28, 2011)

I had every opportunity to watch this weeks raw but I just couldn't do it

this is the worst it's ever been during my time of watching wwe which is almost 20 years.


----------



## Clique (Sep 9, 2007)

NathWFC said:


> This will be my last post in the Raw section for a while, I'm done with this shit. The real talent in the company is being wasted, the writers haven't got a fucking clue how to do their job, the booking is a joke, there's no mid-card/tag division, and the way absolutely everything revolves around Cena and the way the world titles now mean about as much as one of Cena's turds is just sickening. I honestly believe the WWE I used to love is dead and it's not coming back, at least not for a long, long time. It's only getting worse and I'm not sitting through this painful, incoherent, pointless, PG, Cena revolved fucking bullshit any longer.
> 
> Anyone who continues to defend this utter crap is gone in the head.


Shows are 2009-2010 bad again. I saw the entrances for the first match, the last three minutes of the show and read the results and I don't feel like I missed a thing. Not even going to look at the DVR, straight delete again.


----------



## NonCentz (Nov 7, 2007)

This was honestly the least interested I've been in Raw in a long, long time...worst raw I've seen in years.


----------



## WTFWWE (Apr 10, 2012)

WWE is getting cocky thinking they can pull this shit when their ratings are dropping I hope they get a 2.8 but they probably get a 3.0 because of PPV aftermath but next week don't be surprised if its in the high 2's


----------



## PacoAwesome (Jun 20, 2011)

NathWFC said:


> This will be my last post in the Raw section for a while, I'm done with this shit. The real talent in the company is being wasted, the writers haven't got a fucking clue how to do their job, the booking is a joke, there's no mid-card/tag division, and the way absolutely everything revolves around Cena and the way the world titles now mean about as much as one of Cena's turds is just sickening. I honestly believe the WWE I used to love is dead and it's not coming back, at least not for a long, long time. It's only getting worse and I'm not sitting through this painful, incoherent, pointless, PG, Cena revolved fucking bullshit any longer.
> 
> Anyone who continues to defend this utter crap is gone in the head.


I agree. Usually I defend the WWE when they are at a low point. However, this shit is just bad as of late. WWE is just playing around and not being serious at all. Cena is just destroying everything left and right being a living title. The world champions are being booked second fiddle and not given the chance to main event even a RAW. The mid-card is almost not existent and creative won't give the division a decent storyline. The tag division looks to be slowly getting some attention, but I don't think it will last. WWE is just annoying me that they won't pull the trigger to push talent that is actually over naturally. They keep trying to do what they want, and not listen to the voices of the fans.


----------



## GOON (Jan 23, 2010)

Raw was fine tonight. Nothing great. Nothing awful. It was just fine.


----------



## SteenIsGod (Dec 20, 2011)

Johncena-hhh said:


> Always in this time of year is a bad product
> 
> No big names .. not interesting storyline ..
> 
> ...


2011....

It's awful right now. No Main Event Stars in the Company besides Cena. No One Being Built up. It's as bad as when Orton was the Champion in 2009 feuding with Cena.


----------



## Falkono (Dec 7, 2009)

Changing my answer to worst it has been.

The thing that annoys me is they have no desire to change. The whole Vince coming back thing was set up like there was going to be a huge change and nothing did. Still had Cena winning main events against pointless opponents.
WWE are just plodding along and I think it is becoming more clear each week that they write the show a few hours before it actually airs. The planning and booking is just terrible.
It's like they are relying on the addicts to keep watching out of habit rather then because it's a show worth watching. 
Watching Raw right now is like watching a movie you have seen thousands of times. You know what's going to happen. Eventually you get bored of it, time to take a break from it. Will watch the 1000th episode but right now the show is unwatchable. Tna is far better.


----------



## WTFWWE (Apr 10, 2012)

GOON said:


> Raw was fine tonight. Nothing great. Nothing awful. It was just fine.


It wasn't. It was AWFUL!


----------



## GOON (Jan 23, 2010)

WTFWWE said:


> It wasn't. It was AWFUL!


Stop being a prisoner of the moment and tell me why it was so awful.


----------



## dxbender (Jul 22, 2007)

Raw 1000 is the big show. It WILL be good, but the thing to wonder though is that after Raw 1000...what else is there? Summerslam looks like there might be 2-3 good matches(HHH-Lesnar,WWE title match,WHC match), but that's the best WWE will be until WM season 6 months later....

The Rock isn't coming back until WM season, not cause he's busy(I'm sure if he was truly dedicated,he'd be able to be on Raw if he wanted to),but cause he doesnt' even want to be apart of this.


After Raw 1000, WWE better change. It has nothing to do with PG rating, it's 100% has to do with the writers and anyone associated with putting together some of the stupidest things ever. I still say WWE around 06-07 was real bad, and new generation was bad too, but things have quickly turned from a real good year(from January-Extreme Rules 2012, everything was great,but now its starting to suck ALOT) to one thats sucking alot.


----------



## Jupiter Jack Daniels (Jul 18, 2011)

I'm in the middle about RAW. It is a rather shitty show but could be alot worse. All that matters is that I'm entertained and learn to find something good about the show. Otherwise, I would have/should have quit watching months ago.

Instead of watching to point out all the shit, I watch with expectations of being entertained and I must say, I've been entertained by RAW, although it could be better.


----------



## WTFWWE (Apr 10, 2012)

GOON said:


> Stop being a prisoner of the moment and tell me why it was so awful.


Nothing fucking happened!!! The one storyline advancement we got was HHH punching Heyman.


----------



## GOON (Jan 23, 2010)

WTFWWE said:


> Nothing fucking happened!!! The one storyline advancement we got was HHH punching Heyman.


A lot of things happened. Tell me what was so *AWFUL* about the show. Give me specifics.


----------



## WTFWWE (Apr 10, 2012)

GOON said:


> A lot of things happened. Tell me what was so *AWFUL* about the show. Give me specifics.


I said NO STORYLINE ADVANCEMENTS! Heyman getting punched was the only example of a story being pushed.

.Johnny was fired all ready
.AJ all ready hinted with Kane

And those are your two stories.

The matches we got wasn't that great as well. Why defend such a shitty product?


----------



## Bushmaster (Sep 28, 2010)

the overall show wasnt bad but what was are the ending we continue to get. Cena and Johnny at OTL, Cena and Cole and tonight. Cena ending shows beating and squashing some authority figure. All of these have been so awful im really considering taking a break from Raw. How can vince think that ending the show like that is great. you have 2 champions, a US champ and IC champ, tag team champs yet the guy who hasnt had any title in a while who isnt even facing wrestlers on Raw continues to end the show like that. I thought house shows were supposed to send the crowd happy. Cena and Ryder must have buried the entire roster in a dark match to send the crowd even happier.


----------



## SteenIsGod (Dec 20, 2011)

dxbender said:


> Raw 1000 is the big show. It WILL be good, but the thing to wonder though is that after Raw 1000...what else is there? Summerslam looks like there might be 2-3 good matches(HHH-Lesnar,WWE title match,WHC match), but that's the best WWE will be until WM season 6 months later....
> 
> The Rock isn't coming back until WM season, not cause he's busy(I'm sure if he was truly dedicated,he'd be able to be on Raw if he wanted to),but cause he doesnt' even want to be apart of this.
> 
> ...


Yeah we are going to get more filler. They don't have the star power to fill up 3 hours. Hopefully we get quality wrestling, but it will probably be more Hornswaggle and Santino garbage.


----------



## King_Kool-Aid™ (Jul 3, 2007)

It might be worse than New Generation era episodes of RAW.


----------



## GOON (Jan 23, 2010)

WTFWWE said:


> I said NO STORYLINE ADVANCEMENTS! Heyman getting punched was the only example of a story being pushed.
> 
> .Johnny was fired all ready
> .AJ all ready hinted with Kane
> ...


Storyline aren't going to advance on every single show. What we got on the post-No Way Out Raw was just fine. Punk/Sheamus vs Kane/Bryan was good. The Heyman/HHH promo was entertaining. The Lauper/Piper segment was fine for what it was as well. This was hardly the worst Raw.


----------



## Silent Alarm (May 26, 2010)

It's abomatrocious.


----------



## WTFWWE (Apr 10, 2012)

GOON said:


> Storyline aren't going to advance on every single show. What we got on the post-No Way Out Raw was just fine. Punk/Sheamus vs Kane/Bryan was good. The Heyman/HHH promo was entertaining. The Lauper/Piper segment was fine for what it was as well. This was hardly the worst Raw.


Didn't say it was "The worst" the one with Cena/Cole was WAY worse this show was bad though.


----------



## peejay (Nov 9, 2008)

It was awful, but things should start to pick up soon anyway with the summer storylines and the 1000th episode of Raw.
The 1000th episode will be a good chance to freshen things up a little, re brand Raw and Smackdown, new logos, theme music,wwe title, titantrons etc


----------



## taker328 (Dec 24, 2009)

peejay said:


> It was awful, but things should start to pick up soon anyway with the summer storylines and the 1000th episode of Raw.
> The 1000th episode will be a good chance to freshen things up a little, re brand Raw and Smackdown, new logos, theme music,wwe title, titantrons etc


I really would love to think that WWE can actually come up with an idea like this, but i honestly don't think they are capable right now. Sure the 1000th episode will most likely be great for us and it'll be a great nostalgia trip, but I fear it'll be right back to normal the next show.


----------



## Sarcasm1 (Aug 24, 2011)

I didn't find the show format to be awful but the outcomes was pretty disappointing.


----------



## TheSupremeForce (Jul 15, 2011)

The first hour was actually pretty good, but the show quickly went down the toilet after Heyman got punched.


----------



## TripleG (Dec 8, 2004)

Tonight's show was dreadful, but I'm hoping that it gets better now that this whole People Power crap is over.


----------



## Kabraxal (Jun 14, 2004)

It is so bad I'm done worrying about catching it. I'll watch Eureka and maybe turn in for the last hour... maybe just youtube this trash. But right now there is no reason to bother trying to catch it all when all of it is such shit.


----------



## Kling Klang (Oct 6, 2011)

Garbage again from raw.


----------



## muttgeiger (Feb 16, 2004)

It ain't good


----------



## #Mark (Dec 31, 2011)

The only reason i'm watching is hope that WWE does something major before/on the 1,000th episode. If that episode comes and goes, and WWE is still absolute shit, then i'm done subjugating myself to two hours of misery every week.


----------



## Jupiter Jack Daniels (Jul 18, 2011)

I've come to the realization why people complain so much about RAW.

Most people who currently watch, only began watching during the AE. Going from a time like that where the shows were action packed, it's easy to look at the current product in disgust. But, I've been watching wrestling for 23 years and I've seen far worse shows than RAW currently is. Right now, I'd give WWE 6/10, because it's better than average and will never achieve a perfect score among the entire audience.

And Cena is far from the problem. In case you people don't realize, WWE has never booked great mat wrestlers above the actual faces of the company. If Cena is face of the company, what sense would it make to have him anywhere but the main event? And either way, that minor setback isn't the reason the entire show is suffering. RAW is only bad for those who expect so much with limited options and a limited roster. But, for those who just accept it for what it is, it's not a totally bad show and is watchable. So in the end, it may be moments of RAW that I dislike but overall, I enjoy the show and don't watch just so I can get on here and bitch about it being the "worst RAW ever", knowing that it would be somewhat shitty based on what happened last night and last week.

Seriously, do people expect things to suddenly get better? If Punk/DB main evented every RAW, would the show suddenly be 10 times better without Cena in the main event? And what about the rest of the show, that still has no meaning behind it? Right now, WWE only appears to be problem after problem because people have grown to point out every flaw the show has, just to get online and rant about it and wonder why it never changes.

Big reason it never changes is because, despite how shitty you say the show is, you just can't quit watching and Vince knows that. Thats why he puts on the product he does because no matter how much people complain, they won't totally quit watching.


----------



## SideTableDrawer (Apr 24, 2011)

Only good for background noise or when The One Man Band shows up.


----------



## Kabraxal (Jun 14, 2004)

Trouble Trouble said:


> I've come to the realization why people complain so much about RAW.
> 
> Most people who currently watch, only began watching during the AE. Going from a time like that where the shows were action packed, it's easy to look at the current product in disgust. But, I've been watching wrestling for 23 years and I've seen far worse shows than RAW currently is. Right now, I'd give WWE 6/10, because it's better than average and will never achieve a perfect score among the entire audience.
> 
> ...


Golden Age baby here... and I went back and watch even older tapes. So no... not true. And I've stopped watching WWE before and I can easily do so again. Not hard when the show is so insultingly bad.


----------



## kobra860 (Jan 29, 2005)

Cena doesn't always have to be in the main event. Especially when his match doesn't advance any storylines and basically is a squash. I can't believe that the great storyline for the WWE Title is being overshadowed by an awful boring character and John Laurinaitis.


----------



## Kazzenn (Apr 2, 2012)

I'm getting close to having another break again. Oh well this run lasted longer than last time.


----------



## Rocky_Mark0000 (May 31, 2012)

Wow, I guess 7 people started to watch Raw in 2012.


----------



## dxbender (Jul 22, 2007)

Rocky_Mark0000 said:


> Wow, I guess 7 people started to watch Raw in 2012.


More specifically, May 2012.


----------



## Schrute_Farms (Nov 27, 2009)

Can you imagine how many replays we will see on 3 hour raws?

They'll replay the opening segment 10 times before the night is over. 

It's boring, nothing interesting, the guys the IWC likes are so dull and don't do anything to make me want to tune in. AJ is the only decent thing about WWE right now.


----------



## Billy Kidman (Aug 17, 2008)

Just reading the spoilers and highlights on YouTube for now until the product becomes watchable again.


----------



## Jupiter Jack Daniels (Jul 18, 2011)

Kabraxal said:


> Golden Age baby here... and I went back and watch even older tapes. So no... not true. And I've stopped watching WWE before and I can easily do so again. Not hard when the show is so insultingly bad.


Just because it's not true in your case doesn't mean that everybody feels the same as you.

I just find it weird when people completely ignore some of the worst years in WWE history, yet shit all over the current product. And that makes me believe people weren't fully into the product back then. Also, age plays a part in it.

Anyway, I just wonder do people even think anymore. If you complain about NWO being shitty, do you suddenly expect RAW to improve in less than 24 hours?


----------



## dxbender (Jul 22, 2007)

Schrute_Farms said:


> Can you imagine how many replays we will see on 3 hour raws?
> 
> They'll replay the opening segment 10 times before the night is over.
> 
> It's boring, nothing interesting, the guys the IWC likes are so dull and don't do anything to make me want to tune in. AJ is the only decent thing about WWE right now.


Replays and mid match commercials are stupidest things about watching WWE.

You'll see something happen. WWE goes to commercial...comes back 3 minutes later and is like "here's what just happened 3 minutes ago", then starts a match, then goes to commercial, then comes back from commercial to the match and replays what happened in the match before the commercial.


----------



## swagger_ROCKS (Jun 5, 2010)

July 23rd has got to be their day, if not, I just don't know.


----------



## Kabraxal (Jun 14, 2004)

Trouble Trouble said:


> Just because it's not true in your case doesn't mean that everybody feels the same as you.
> 
> I just find it weird when people completely ignore some of the worst years in WWE history, yet shit all over the current product. And that makes me believe people weren't fully into the product back then. Also, age plays a part in it.
> 
> Anyway, I just wonder do people even think anymore. If you complain about NWO being shitty, do you suddenly expect RAW to improve in less than 24 hours?


These are actually the worst years in the WWE... aside from one or two angles, the WWE has just been plain horrid. At least with the worst of 95/96 you started seeing signs that the WWE was listening to the fans. It's the exact opposite now... Vince often does things to SPITE the fans.


----------



## Xist2inspire (May 29, 2010)

I put "as bad as I can remember." Raw has absolutely no direction. None. To those who enjoy the matches (which are usually decent), fine. To those who enjoy the segments (also decent), fine. To those who enjoy the characters (who are usually good, even great), good for you. But keep in mind that's it's not going anywhere. WWE has no plans beyond the next PPV. Pushes _will_ be halted. Angles _will_ be dropped. Divisions _will_ be ignored. Titles _will_ be devalued. The WWE hasn't had any consistency whatsoever in years. There's no forward progress, it's the same main eventers, the same guys used as filler over and over again. The new guys just coming out can't get over because the guys that they need to feud with lack creditability themselves. Nothing's happened, nobody's been pushed, and we're left waiting for over-the-hill, outdated guys like Rock, HHH, Lesnar, Vince, Show, etc. to bring excitement. No new stars. No Punk, no Bryan, no Ryder, no Ziggler, Kofi, Cody, no new stars. No new storylines, either. Babyfaces are smiling juggernauts, heels are typical "bad guys," and just like a Saturday cartoon, they're mere props rather than real threats. And it never changes. Ever. WWE has NO direction. None at all.


----------



## RKO85 (Jun 28, 2011)

The last time it was good was in 09 the road to wrestle mania 25 with HHh/Orton and HBK/Taker


----------



## Jupiter Jack Daniels (Jul 18, 2011)

Kabraxal said:


> These are actually the worst years in the WWE... aside from one or two angles, the WWE has just been plain horrid. *At least with the worst of 95/96 you started seeing signs that the WWE was listening to the fans*. It's the exact opposite now... Vince often does things to SPITE the fans.


Big difference between then and now. WWE is more financially stable and isn't desperate in a ratings war with a rival promotion. There is no competition, Vince is his own competition. And the reason these shows appear half assed is because he knows the true fans won't quit watching but at the same time, his plan might be for us "older" fans to tune out, in favor of the younger audience he can cater to, because they have lower expectations.

And in my mind, the product will never change, Vince wants us to quit watching because his current product/roster is designed more for children. It's more money in pleasing them than a mostly adult demographic who find anything to complain about regarding the current product.


----------



## paulborklaserheyma (Jun 12, 2012)

Xist2inspire said:


> I put "as bad as I can remember." Raw has absolutely no direction. None. To those who enjoy the matches (which are usually decent), fine. To those who enjoy the segments (also decent), fine. To those who enjoy the characters (who are usually good, even great), good for you. But keep in mind that's it's not going anywhere. WWE has no plans beyond the next PPV. Pushes _will_ be halted. Angles _will_ be dropped. Divisions _will_ be ignored. Titles _will_ be devalued. The WWE hasn't had any consistency whatsoever in years. There's no forward progress, it's the same main eventers, the same guys used as filler over and over again. The new guys just coming out can't get over because the guys that they need to feud with lack creditability themselves. Nothing's happened, nobody's been pushed, and we're left waiting for over-the-hill, outdated guys like Rock, HHH, Lesnar, Vince, Show, etc. to bring excitement. No new stars. No Punk, no Bryan, no Ryder, no Ziggler, Kofi, Cody, no new stars. No new storylines, either. Babyfaces are smiling juggernauts, heels are typical "bad guys," and just like a Saturday cartoon, they're mere props rather than real threats. And it never changes. Ever. WWE has NO direction. None at all.




Agreed that WWE has no direction whatsoever.


----------



## 1andOnlyDobz! (Jan 3, 2011)

The first hour tonight I actually enjoyed. The rest of it was beyond awful although it was funny seeing Show and Otunga walk out on Laurinaitis. Other than that, stuff was painful at times. I would have loved to see Christian or Rhodes do something and shouldn't there have been some sort of beginning to a build for Money in the Bank?


----------



## Kabraxal (Jun 14, 2004)

Trouble Trouble said:


> Big difference between then and now. WWE is more financially stable and isn't desperate in a ratings war with a rival promotion. There is no competition, Vince is his own competition. And the reason these shows appear half assed is because he knows the true fans won't quit watching but at the same time, his plan might be for us "older" fans to tune out, in favor of the younger audience he can cater to, because they have lower expectations.
> 
> And in my mind, the product will never change, Vince wants us to quit watching because his current product/roster is designed more for children. It's more money in pleasing them than a mostly adult demographic who find anything to complain about regarding the current product.


Except the ratings are declining, the buy rates are declining, and the gates will soon follow as the TRUE wrestling fans leave for those precious casuals McMahon is relying on. And just like music, the moment you lose your hardcore fans is when you are screwed. The casuals will leave sooner or later and he has done his best to alienate the demographic that wrestling has ALWAYS relied to prosper. 

So yeah... it isn't good business. It's short term bang and sacrificing true long term success. The story of business today sadly. No wonder the economy is tanking with people like McMahon running things.


----------



## Arya Dark (Sep 8, 2006)

*WWE is written FOR kids.... it appearing to be written BY kids is just a coincidence. *


----------



## Nostalgia (Dec 20, 2011)

I voted ''I'm struggling through'' - because that perfectly describes RAW for me right now. The main-event storyline between Cena/Show/Laurinatis is absolutely atrocious and I hate how it's given _by far_ the most attention, constantly recapped on both shows, and made out to be the only important thing in the WWE. It's criminal that such a terrible feud main-events over the WWE Title. I agree with Xist2inspire, there is no direction right now. Divisions are ignored and are at their worst ever. The Divas Division is at it's worst ever. The U.S Title is at is worst ever as it's being held by Santino, who WWE prefer to use as a joke in gimmick matches with ring announcers, rather than making him look like a credible champion. And don't even get me started on the pointless filler matches that litter the program. 

However RAW right now isn't at it's worst ever, as RAW was at it's worst in in 2009 in my opinion, when we had all those awful guest hosts and Randy Orton boring the hell of out of us in the main-event. CM Punk and Ziggler are the only reasons I watch RAW now, and I actually prefer SmackDown more at the moment now for the first time in a long while due to Christian and Sandow, less Cena, and more decent wrestling matches.


----------



## Jupiter Jack Daniels (Jul 18, 2011)

Kabraxal said:


> Except the ratings are declining, the buy rates are declining, and the gates will soon follow as the TRUE wrestling fans leave for those precious casuals McMahon is relying on. And just like music, *the moment you lose your hardcore fans is when you are screwed*. *The casuals will leave sooner or later and he has done his best to alienate the demographic that wrestling has ALWAYS relied to prosper. *
> 
> So yeah... it isn't good business. It's short term bang and sacrificing true long term success. The story of business today sadly. No wonder the economy is tanking with people like McMahon running things.


So, you're saying that those who watched during the "Golden Era", stuck around thru all the bullshit of the past 25 years? That demographic mostly was gone by the time '96-'97 came around. Then, that brought the AE demographic and, as ratings show, they left. Point is, WWE has financially gotten stronger in both instances. Ratings may be down, PPV buys may be declining but at this point, WWE is worth more than ever.

Look at it like this, if you build your show towards a certain demographic and exclude those who don't fit it, how do you expect to constantly move forward and gain new fans without catering to them?


----------



## Lee_oh_Lee (May 28, 2011)

Bad enough that I skipped it. Turned out, via some friends on facebook, it completely sucked with same old shit ending. Boy am I glad I missed it. Not kissing Tnas ass, but they Are putting on better shows right now.


----------



## Kabraxal (Jun 14, 2004)

Trouble Trouble said:


> So, you're saying that those who watched during the "Golden Era", stuck around thru all the bullshit of the past 25 years? That demographic mostly was gone by the time '96-'97 came around. Then, that brought the AE demographic and, as ratings show, they left. Point is, WWE has financially gotten stronger in both instances. Ratings may be down, PPV buys may be declining but at this point, WWE is worth more than ever.
> 
> Look at it like this, if you build your show towards a certain demographic and exclude those who don't fit it, how do you expect to constantly move forward and gain new fans without catering to them?


It's a wrestling show. APpeal to WRESTLING fans. O but right... lets appeal to the lowest common denominator, strip the wrestling from the show for "entertainment" and dumb everything down since that is the easiest way to appeal to the most people. 

The Golden Age and the AE and WCW all proved you can make large money going the main demo first then throwing in other things that appeal to other audiences. Something for everyone. Right now, all the WWE is, is "HERE'S CENA! LOVE HIM DAMN IT, LOVE HIM!". It's all cartoony schlock where nothing matters except for one fucking man. That isn't good business.

And really... the business is in decline, so you saying they are doing well enough to warrant this stupidity is extremely laughable.


----------



## paulborklaserheyma (Jun 12, 2012)

Anyone who says WWE is doing great and is not declining are either deniers or don't know what the hell they're talking about.


----------



## Lee_oh_Lee (May 28, 2011)

Guys guys guys, its very simple, WWE doesn't give a shit about us 'older fans' , Lets just leave wwe and get The fuck out of their way! TG vince has a whole new generation of fans he is trying to win over, We are gone like yesterday's garbage. If Raw was this bad, the obviously choice would be stop supporting something you don't like, it isn't going to help much


----------



## Jupiter Jack Daniels (Jul 18, 2011)

Kabraxal said:


> It's a wrestling show. APpeal to WRESTLING fans. O but right... lets appeal to the lowest common denominator, strip the wrestling from the show for "entertainment" and dumb everything down since that is the easiest way to appeal to the most people.
> 
> The Golden Age and the AE and WCW all proved you can make large money going the main demo first then throwing in other things that appeal to other audiences. Something for everyone. Right now, all the WWE is, is "HERE'S CENA! LOVE HIM DAMN IT, LOVE HIM!". It's all cartoony schlock where nothing matters except for one fucking man. That isn't good business.
> 
> And really... the business is in decline, so you saying they are doing well enough to warrant this stupidity is extremely laughable.


When was the last time WWE actually appealed to wrestling fans? It has been entertainment based for years and without all these big time celebrities, WWE would have died in 1985.

And what is the main demo? Are you forgetting that the AE started off as PG? WCW was PG in 1997? And people kill me with the whole "nothing matters but Cena" argument. Why, is it because he's the main event? Okay, what about the other 1 hour 45 minutes of RAW, why does it suck? Because Cena was only present on my TV for about 15-20 minutes.

I'm saying that Vince is financially stable and doesn't need to take certain risks to please a portion of the audience. It all boils down to competition, WWE's best moments was when they had competition. Who's the competition now, TNA? A promotion that struggles to get a 1.0 and 5,000 PPV buys? You people have got to realize that there are quite a few people who really enjoy this shit, so why take the risk and do something drastic that might backfire just to please a percentage of people who complain anyway?

Because if you look back to 1985, WWE has mostly been directed towards children, hence all the toys, guest appearances on TV shows and various other products that appeal mainly to kids. Hell, I'm pretty sure nearly all of us began watching as children. So why feel that because we're older and have certain expectations that WWE should only cater to us and not anybody else? Because thats not what is going to keep the company rising, it would be at a standstill if it only appealed to the same group of people it has had for years.


----------



## KO Bossy (Oct 23, 2011)

Trouble Trouble said:


> Just because it's not true in your case doesn't mean that everybody feels the same as you.
> 
> I just find it weird when people completely ignore some of the worst years in WWE history, yet shit all over the current product. And that makes me believe people weren't fully into the product back then. Also, age plays a part in it.
> 
> Anyway, I just wonder do people even think anymore. If you complain about NWO being shitty, do you suddenly expect RAW to improve in less than 24 hours?


The reason people bitch is because this era IS that bad. Just because you don't think it is doesn't mean you speak for everyone. In the past 6 months I have seen exactly 4 good things-one is Punk as the champion, the other was Brock Lesnar's return, third was Triple H/Undertaker's buildup and match at WM and the last was Daniel Bryan getting over with the fans. And guess what, they've somehow managed to fuck some of those up. They've already taken all the steam out of Brock Lesnar by having him lose his first match and Punk and Bryan haven't been given a fair shot at the main event because they figure its more important to devote time, money and energy getting a guy over with the fans who a) doesn't need it b) doesn't deserve it and c) people are sick and tired of.

What pisses me off is that half of this stuff is so fucking easy to book. Brock Lesnar's return could have been booked by a 10 year old and done properly, but the Fed somehow managed to completely screw it up. Its like screwing up cereal-how hard is it to put milk and cereal into a bowl? Coincidentally, how hard is it to book the former UFC fighter who you are introducing as an invader from a different sport and company? Anyone with a brain could figure it out, but they totally blew it. 

At the same time, why is the WWE and World Heavyweight Champion doing the curtain jerker of the show while 2 bad, boring wrestlers are in the main event? They've literally taken the titles and made them completely worthless. Words cannot describe how bad they've fucked this up.

The Lesnar thing really was the straw that broke the camel's back. Punk's shoot got me back into wrestling after a hiatus, and screwing up Brock the way they did just showed me that this company doesn't deserve me attention or business. Hence, I come onto the board here to chat about wrestling and see maybe if things have improved. Until they do, I won't be returning. 

And for the record, I can't believe that you actually think Raw is 6/10 right now and is above average. It absolutely boggles my mind that announcers being stripped and covered in BBQ sauce and things of that caliber would rate higher for you than say, WCW 2000. For me, this is way, WAY worse. I sat through WCW 2000, and it was atrocious, but I'd take it in a second over this lame, god forsaken bullshit I see today.


----------



## Nut Tree (Jan 31, 2011)

Lee_oh_Lee said:


> Guys guys guys, its very simple, WWE doesn't give a shit about us 'older fans' , Lets just leave wwe and get The fuck out of their way! TG vince has a whole new generation of fans he is trying to win over, We are gone like yesterday's garbage. If Raw was this bad, the obviously choice would be stop supporting something you don't like, it isn't going to help much


Exactly I didn't watch the ppv because you knew all of the faces were gonna win. And I didnt watch raw because the PPV didn't leave anything open for me to tune into.


----------



## Jupiter Jack Daniels (Jul 18, 2011)

KO Bossy said:


> The reason people bitch is because this era IS that bad. *Just because you don't think it is doesn't mean you speak for everyone*. In the past 6 months I have seen exactly 4 good things-one is Punk as the champion, the other was Brock Lesnar's return, third was Triple H/Undertaker's buildup and match at WM and the last was Daniel Bryan getting over with the fans. And guess what, they've somehow managed to fuck some of those up. They've already taken all the steam out of Brock Lesnar by having him lose his first match and Punk and Bryan haven't been given a fair shot at the main event because they figure its more important to devote time, money and energy getting a guy over with the fans who a) doesn't need it b) doesn't deserve it and c) people are sick and tired of.
> 
> What pisses me off is that half of this stuff is so fucking easy to book. Brock Lesnar's return could have been booked by a 10 year old and done properly, but the Fed somehow managed to completely screw it up. Its like screwing up cereal-how hard is it to put milk and cereal into a bowl? Coincidentally, how hard is it to book the former UFC fighter who you are introducing as an invader from a different sport and company? Anyone with a brain could figure it out, but they totally blew it.
> 
> ...


I'm not speaking for everybody, I'm speaking for me and if I felt it was that shitty, why would I still watch? Whats the point in that?

It's not for you to believe or understand, my views on something should not please you. However, I refuse to call RAW a shitty show based on announcers being stripped. I mean, there is another hour and a half of RAW left, aside from that. And, I'm not saying it's better than WCW 2000. I grew up on WCW, so I'll take WCW & ECW anything over WWE, past or present.

And just answer this, if you feel RAW is so horrible, why do you watch? Because the reason I watch is to enjoy the show as a FAN. I'll be the first to admit that it is slacking but maybe it will change, I don't know and I don't care. I'll still be watching until it dies or I die first.


----------



## nba2k10 (Mar 26, 2011)

Trouble Trouble said:


> I'm not speaking for everybody, I'm speaking for me and if I felt it was that shitty, why would I still watch? Whats the point in that?
> 
> It's not for you to believe or understand, my views on something should not please you. However, I refuse to call RAW a shitty show based on announcers being stripped. I mean, there is another hour and a half of RAW left, aside from that. And, I'm not saying it's better than WCW 2000. I grew up on WCW, so I'll take WCW & ECW anything over WWE, past or present.
> 
> And just answer this, if you feel RAW is so horrible, why do you watch? Because the reason I watch is to enjoy the show as a FAN. I'll be the first to admit that it is slacking but maybe it will change, I don't know and I don't care. I'll still be watching until it dies or I die first.


Lol so what did you enjoy about this raw? You say it's slacking but your still enjoying it? So basically anything the WWE throws at you, your going to eat it? But maybe it will change? Has not change since the last 7 years. I'm sure other shows that are 2 hours long, will put 2 hours for the people who watch and put their time into it, enjoy until the last second. So your telling me as a fan that I should watch only the other half of the show when Raw is suppose to be 2 hours? As a fan I should want to enjoy 2 full hours of Raw, not just half of the show, but of course I can't with how bad the WWE has been.


----------



## Jupiter Jack Daniels (Jul 18, 2011)

nba2k10 said:


> Lol so what did you enjoy about this raw?


Gotdamn, what does it even matter?

You know whether you enjoyed it or not, so what benefit does it give you knowing whether I enjoyed it or not?

Damn, do I gotta tell you whether I enjoyed Halloween Havoc '90 or tell you what I like about Danny Havoc, too?


----------



## nba2k10 (Mar 26, 2011)

Trouble Trouble said:


> Gotdamn, what does it even matter?
> 
> You know whether you enjoyed it or not, so what benefit does it give you knowing whether I enjoyed it or not?
> 
> Damn, do I gotta tell you whether I enjoyed Halloween Havoc '90 or tell you what I like about Danny Havoc, too?


I edited my post. Well, I didn't enjoy, other people didn't as well, but you go on to try to disagree with them, saying you enjoyed it. So tell me right now, what you liked about Raw.


----------



## Jupiter Jack Daniels (Jul 18, 2011)

nba2k10 said:


> I edited my post. Well, I didn't enjoy, other people didn't as well, but you go on to try to disagree with them, saying you enjoyed it. So tell me right now, what you liked about Raw.


Show me where I said I enjoyed RAW "tonight".


----------



## nba2k10 (Mar 26, 2011)

Trouble Trouble said:


> Show me where I said I enjoyed RAW "tonight".


Well the way your in defense mode it seems like it you enjoyed it, but did you? 6/10 sounds like you enjoyed it


----------



## Jupiter Jack Daniels (Jul 18, 2011)

nba2k10 said:


> Well the way your in defense mode it seems like it you enjoyed it, but did you? 6/10 sounds like you enjoyed it


RAW AS A WHOLE, FROM WEEK TO WEEK, I RATE 6/10.

I'm one of those that, if complain about how shitty a show is, I don't watch. What would be the point in watching?


----------



## Callisto (Aug 9, 2009)

The only thing that is keeping me from completely not watching RAW is the AJ angle. Apart from that little segment, this was was very mediocre. There's absolutely no direction for RAW. I'm not sure how Vince expects the quality of the show to dramatically increase once they add an hour to the show.


----------



## KO Bossy (Oct 23, 2011)

Trouble Trouble said:


> When was the last time WWE actually appealed to wrestling fans? It has been entertainment based for years and without all these big time celebrities, WWE would have died in 1985.
> 
> And what is the main demo? Are you forgetting that the AE started off as PG? WCW was PG in 1997? And people kill me with the whole "nothing matters but Cena" argument. Why, is it because he's the main event? Okay, what about the other 1 hour 45 minutes of RAW, why does it suck? Because Cena was only present on my TV for about 15-20 minutes.
> 
> ...


Well, the ratings have been horrendous lately, drawing in the 2s a couple of times. Low ratings=cancellation by the network, no network=no tv deal, no tv deal=a lot less money, no tv deal=very little exposure, very little exposure and a lot less money=dying business. So unless they start shaping up their shit, ratings will continue to decline to the point where they completely alienate their audience with their shit booking and stupid decisions, and then its goodbye. So yeah, a 2.7 rating 3 weeks ago...is that really indicative of how many people enjoy this shit? Because they were apparently enjoying it a lot more a year and a bit ago...

The big problem with this company is that it is centered around 1 guy and 1 guy only-John Cena. You look at ANY other era and you can find at least a few guys that attention was evenly distributed to. In the Golden Age you had Hogan, Savage, Andre, Warrior, Slaughter, DiBiase, etc. In the New Generation, you had Hart, Michaels, Yokozuna, Diesel and company. In Attitude, you had Austin, Rock, Foley, Hunter, Angle, Undertaker, Kane, etc. In Ruthless Aggression you had Hunter, Benoit, Angle, Lesnar, Eddie, Batista, etc. Who the hell do you have now? John Cena. Forget Punk, Sheamus and the rest, they are complete filler compared to the attention John Cena gets. The Fed has literally placed all their eggs in one basket. Its Cena or its nothing. And guess what? John Cena could work...if there were some other guys with whom he could share the attention with. You know, actually develop a little bit of competition. But no, they've made it clear that Cena is literally the only person whom they have faith in to main event for this company. Guess what? Its become boring as hell seeing the same person at the top time after time after time after time after time. Its not longer about story progression and getting other people over, its become "who will John Cena face this month that he hasn't already? Ok, its this guy. 3 weeks of build, Cena beats him. Ok next victim." Why in the fuck would I want to watch that? I wouldn't. So I don't. And most people on this site don't want to watch it either. But hey, the stupid kids want to. Because, you know, they're 6 and still wet the bed occasionally and like to touch dead birds in their backyard. What the hell is the Fed going to do in 5 years when Cena is inevitably still in the main event and these kids have developed their tastes a bit more and start no longer caring about Cena? Just recycle and grab in the next generation? What if Cena was to die right this instant? This company would be so completely screwed. It would basically be the end for them. Yet despite this knowledge, they still put off the fact that one day pretty boy won't be around anymore and they'll have to rely on someone else. And when that day comes, they're dead. Why? They don't HAVE anyone else. They've put off for years and years building up and other talent to progress into the main event that when the time comes that they'll need them, there won't be anyone. Hence they do it on the fly, which is oddly enough how the book Raw. That's why you see losers like Del Rio with 2 title reigns and no one gives a flying fuck about them. They say "oh shit, we need more main event talent, but we've spent all our time building up the guy who has been over for the past 7 years, so we have no one. Well lets just introduce this guy, call him a Mexican aristocrat, have him win the Rumble and MiTB and give him 2 WWE Titles in 2 months. That should make the fans care about him, after all, he's a former champion!" Newsflash, that doesn't work, its never worked and it will never work because its retarded. The only thing that will get a guy over is exposure to the fans. Once that happens, over time, they will boo him as a heel or love him as a face. You can't force it, it will only happen when the fans decide it. And as long as you've got Cena hogging that main event spot, you will never develop any other main eventers, and no more superstars. You will literally have Alberto Del Rios running around everywhere, with meaningless accomplishments that the fans care about as much as the gum they just stepped in on the way to the arena. And this is all because Vince is letting his idiot daughter and other "yes men" book and write when they clearly have no clue what they're doing, and because Vince is so afraid of not making every fucking penny off of John Cena's back that he's going to run this company into the ground.

And the day that happens, I'll be there. And I'll say 'good'. Because he'll deserve it for being an inept businessman who doesn't listen to his customers and by keeping an incompetent staff employed.


----------



## nba2k10 (Mar 26, 2011)

Trouble Trouble said:


> RAW AS A WHOLE, FROM WEEK TO WEEK, I RATE 6/10.
> 
> I'm one of those that, if complain about how shitty a show is, I don't watch. What would be the point in watching?


You know 6/10 is above average right? And if you don't watch a show at all, then how can you complain in the first place if you didn't watch the show? How can you be one those that "If complain about how garbage a show is"? Does it make sense?


----------



## Y2J Problem (Dec 17, 2007)

It's terrible,one of the few times I can remember where I don't give a shit about anything that's happening.


----------



## Lee_oh_Lee (May 28, 2011)

KO Bossy said:


> Well, the ratings have been horrendous lately, drawing in the 2s a couple of times. Low ratings=cancellation by the network, no network=no tv deal, no tv deal=a lot less money, no tv deal=very little exposure, very little exposure and a lot less money=dying business. So unless they start shaping up their shit, ratings will continue to decline to the point where they completely alienate their audience with their shit booking and stupid decisions, and then its goodbye. So yeah, a 2.7 rating 3 weeks ago...is that really indicative of how many people enjoy this shit? Because they were apparently enjoying it a lot more a year and a bit ago...
> 
> The big problem with this company is that it is centered around 1 guy and 1 guy only-John Cena. You look at ANY other era and you can find at least a few guys that attention was evenly distributed to. In the Golden Age you had Hogan, Savage, Andre, Warrior, Slaughter, DiBiase, etc. In the New Generation, you had Hart, Michaels, Yokozuna, Diesel and company. In Attitude, you had Austin, Rock, Foley, Hunter, Angle, Undertaker, Kane, etc. In Ruthless Aggression you had Hunter, Benoit, Angle, Lesnar, Eddie, Batista, etc. Who the hell do you have now? John Cena. Forget Punk, Sheamus and the rest, they are complete filler compared to the attention John Cena gets. The Fed has literally placed all their eggs in one basket. Its Cena or its nothing. And guess what? John Cena could work...if there were some other guys with whom he could share the attention with. You know, actually develop a little bit of competition. But no, they've made it clear that Cena is literally the only person whom they have faith in to main event for this company. Guess what? Its become boring as hell seeing the same person at the top time after time after time after time after time. Its not longer about story progression and getting other people over, its become "who will John Cena face this month that he hasn't already? Ok, its this guy. 3 weeks of build, Cena beats him. Ok next victim." Why in the fuck would I want to watch that? I wouldn't. So I don't. And most people on this site don't want to watch it either. But hey, the stupid kids want to. Because, you know, they're 6 and still wet the bed occasionally and like to touch dead birds in their backyard. What the hell is the Fed going to do in 5 years when Cena is inevitably still in the main event and these kids have developed their tastes a bit more and start no longer caring about Cena? Just recycle and grab in the next generation? What if Cena was to die right this instant? This company would be so completely screwed. It would basically be the end for them. Yet despite this knowledge, they still put off the fact that one day pretty boy won't be around anymore and they'll have to rely on someone else. And when that day comes, they're dead. Why? They don't HAVE anyone else. They've put off for years and years building up and other talent to progress into the main event that when the time comes that they'll need them, there won't be anyone. Hence they do it on the fly, which is oddly enough how the book Raw. That's why you see losers like Del Rio with 2 title reigns and no one gives a flying fuck about them. They say "oh shit, we need more main event talent, but we've spent all our time building up the guy who has been over for the past 7 years, so we have no one. Well lets just introduce this guy, call him a Mexican aristocrat, have him win the Rumble and MiTB and give him 2 WWE Titles in 2 months. That should make the fans care about him, after all, he's a former champion!" Newsflash, that doesn't work, its never worked and it will never work because its retarded. The only thing that will get a guy over is exposure to the fans. Once that happens, over time, they will boo him as a heel or love him as a face. You can't force it, it will only happen when the fans decide it. And as long as you've got Cena hogging that main event spot, you will never develop any other main eventers, and no more superstars. You will literally have Alberto Del Rios running around everywhere, with meaningless accomplishments that the fans care about as much as the gum they just stepped in on the way to the arena. And this is all because Vince is letting his idiot daughter and other "yes men" book and write when they clearly have no clue what they're doing, and because Vince is so afraid of not making every fucking penny off of John Cena's back that he's going to run this company into the ground.
> 
> And the day that happens, I'll be there. And I'll say 'good'. Because he'll deserve it for being an inept businessman who doesn't listen to his customers and by keeping an incompetent staff employed.


Co-sign


----------



## Jupiter Jack Daniels (Jul 18, 2011)

nba2k10 said:


> You know 6/10 is above average right? And if you don't watch a show at all, then how can you complain in the first place if you didn't watch the show? How can you be one those that "If complain about how garbage a show is"? Does it make sense?


WTF?

If you so intent on the product being shitty, why keep watching?

Look at it like this, I get a gram of kush off the weedman. The shit is horrible, gives me a headache and I don't even get high. Why would I go back to him for more, when I already know the product is shitty?

If I'm so convinced that something sucks or isn't worth my time, why would I allow myself to still be apart of it?


----------



## Kabraxal (Jun 14, 2004)

Trouble Trouble said:


> When was the last time WWE actually appealed to wrestling fans? It has been entertainment based for years and without all these big time celebrities, WWE would have died in 1985.
> 
> And what is the main demo? Are you forgetting that the AE started off as PG? WCW was PG in 1997? And people kill me with the whole "nothing matters but Cena" argument. Why, is it because he's the main event? Okay, what about the other 1 hour 45 minutes of RAW, why does it suck? Because Cena was only present on my TV for about 15-20 minutes.
> 
> ...


Hmmmm *looks to find Savage/Steamboat, WMIV wrestling tournament, a tag division, an IC division all in the 80s then HBK/Hart, Hart/Hart, Hart/Perfect, a tag division, an IC division in the 90s then the little era known as Ruthless Agression filled with Angle/Benoit/Jericho/Guerrero...* Nope.. I don't see wrestling being a major part of their product at all after 85. Just a lot of celebrity guests all over.

Obviously you are a new fan that has no clue what he is talking about.


----------



## Colin Delaney (Mar 5, 2012)

So basically another complaint thread. Oh.. but this one has a poll ...okay.


----------



## Lee_oh_Lee (May 28, 2011)

Its not a complaint thread its a Truth thread


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## Lee_oh_Lee (May 28, 2011)

With a poll


----------



## 20083 (Mar 16, 2011)

I watch it for Punk/Kane/Bryan/AJ and Christian/Rhodes although they're not on Raw alot.


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## Colin Delaney (Mar 5, 2012)

There's already a bunch of truth threads about. Everyone just reposts the same problems and same solutions. Be my guest....


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## Jupiter Jack Daniels (Jul 18, 2011)

Kabraxal said:


> Hmmmm *looks to find Savage/Steamboat, WMIV wrestling tournament, a tag division, an IC division all in the 80s then HBK/Hart, Hart/Hart, Hart/Perfect, a tag division, an IC division in the 90s then the little era known as Ruthless Agression filled with Angle/Benoit/Jericho/Guerrero...* Nope.. I don't see wrestling being a major part of their product at all after 85. Just a lot of celebrity guests all over.
> 
> Obviously you are a new fan that has no clue what he is talking about.


And beyond all that, WWE has always been MORE appealing in an entertainment aspect. Just because you point out a few matches involving actual wrestlers, doesn't mean that was the big draw of that event/era. You're pointing out various mid card matches, none that ever really got the promotion they deserved. WTF do you think is the reason it's called "sports entertainment?

Can you name me 1 Wrestlemania without any celebrity involvement?

I mean, in the 80's alone, you had Mr. T, Cyndi Lauper, Muhammad Ali, Liberace, Bob Uecker, Mary Hart, Cathy Lee Crosby, Elvira, Ozzy Osborune Susan Saint James, Aretha Franklin, Gladys Knight, Joan Rivers, Dick Butkus, Lou Duva, Darryl Dawkins, Vanna White, Billy Martin, Rick Schroder Robert Conrad, Cassandra Peterson, Morton Downer, JR, Tiny Lister, various NFL players, cartoon shows and mainstream exposure on MTV.

In the 90's, you had 2 "superhero-like" characters headline the biggest show of the year, also being one of the worst wrestling matches ever, Regis Philbin, Marla Maples, Alex Trebek, Ray Combs, Steve Allen, Pamela Anderson, Jennie Garth, Jenny McCarthy, Burt Reynolds, Rhonda Shear, Jonathan Taylor Thomas, Dick Butkus, Lawerence Taylor, Steve McMichael, Ken Norton, JR., Vinny Pazienza, Mike Tyson, Reggie White and Salt N Pepa, among others.

Not doing 2000, because I assume you've been watching since at least then, but like I said, since 1985, when WWE started doing this celebrity shit, they have always been more entertainment based, and without the celebrity involvement in the first Wrestlemania, WWE would have died in 1985. Vince even admitted that, he put all his eggs into that basket. Why do you think WWE did the whole "Rock N Wrestling" thing for?


----------



## CenaSting4life (Jun 19, 2012)

It would be watchable if Cena gets back in the title picture again because Punk is boring as hell.


----------



## Lee_oh_Lee (May 28, 2011)

No, the sad thing is How many of you bitching about how sucky Raw was, is gonna sit down there and give them your ratings next monday night


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## Coffey (Dec 18, 2011)

Lee_oh_Lee said:


> No, the sad thing is How many of you bitching about how sucky Raw was, is gonna sit down there and give them your ratings next monday night


I didn't think we had that many posters here with Nielsen boxes. :shrugs:


----------



## Kabraxal (Jun 14, 2004)

Trouble Trouble said:


> And beyond all that, WWE has always been MORE appealing in an entertainment aspect. Just because you point out a few matches involving actual wrestlers, doesn't mean that was the big draw of that event/era. You're pointing out various mid card matches, none that ever really got the promotion they deserved. WTF do you think is the reason it's called "sports entertainment?
> 
> Can you name me 1 Wrestlemania without any celebrity involvement?
> 
> ...


I'm not arguing that celebrities weren't part of it... I'm arguing that it was not the whole point of the show mixed with the entertainment. Before this era, the wrestling was teh substance and everything else was meant to build for that. Now the wrestling is secondary and everything else is more important. It's backwards.


----------



## KO Bossy (Oct 23, 2011)

Trouble Trouble said:


> And beyond all that, WWE has always been MORE appealing in an entertainment aspect. Just because you point out a few matches involving actual wrestlers, doesn't mean that was the big draw of that event/era. You're pointing out various mid card matches, none that ever really got the promotion they deserved. WTF do you think is the reason it's called "sports entertainment?
> 
> Can you name me 1 Wrestlemania without any celebrity involvement?
> 
> ...


Mick Foley said it best when he said "wrestling is like a circus-if you don't like the trapeze artists maybe you'll like the 16 clowns piling out of the backseat of a Pinto." They always had something for everybody. The die hard wrestling fans got their Savage/Steamboat and the casuals got their Bob Uecker and Robert Goulet. However, the entire core of the entire show was wrestling with a soap opera flair. There may have been lots of publicity drummed up with these celebrities, but I guarantee you that most of the people who bought Wrestlemania 15 did not do so because Vinny Pazienza was refereeing the Brawl for All. His involvement may have gotten them some mainstream media attention, but it wasn't the factor that the success of the PPV depended on.

At the same time, this whole myth of sports entertainment most likely came about because someone decided that the term wrestling sounded too violent, and so to distance themselves from the violence aspect they invented sports entertainment. Its a euphemism-it means the same thing, but it sounds so soulless and devoid of emotion that it softens the blow. "Wrestling is violent! But sports entertainment...I guess that's ok." The fact that wrestling is in fact fixed means that the entire thing is done for the purpose of entertainment-its only a matter of to what degree. When you have Savage and Steamboat at WM3, that was sold on 2 athletes competing. When you have LT vs Bam Bam at WM11, they were trying to cash in on LT's football fame to get coverage and publicity from ESPN and such. Again, its to what degree you're appealing to people's sense of entertainment. Fixed physical athleticism or just flat out celebrity whoring. Achieves the same thing.


----------



## KO Bossy (Oct 23, 2011)

Kabraxal said:


> I'm not arguing that celebrities weren't part of it... I'm arguing that it was the whole point of the show mixed with the entertainment. Before this era, the wrestling was teh substance and everything else was meant to build for that. Now the wrestling is secondary and everything else is more important. It's backwards.


Well, I'd say wrestling is about 5th, behind celebrities, twitter, mainstream media attention and of course, MAKING MONEY. Because who cares if you can't draw a decent rating or put out a quality product you can be proud of, as long as dick face John Cena sells t-shirts to prepubescent girls and 6 year old boys and the Fed can make a few bucks, fuck the fans!


----------



## TNAWCW4LYF (Jan 31, 2010)

Just like you WWE marks come into the TNA section, imgoing to do the same and come into the WWE sectiona nd say that after watching RAW, im embarrassed that im a wrestling fan because of the crap that WWE puts out. Insulting our intelligence. Thank god for impact wrestling and that it has been superb lately, it is what proper wrestling should be like.


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## Jupiter Jack Daniels (Jul 18, 2011)

Kabraxal said:


> I'm not arguing that celebrities weren't part of it... I'm arguing that it was the whole point of the show mixed with the entertainment. Before this era, the wrestling was teh substance and everything else was meant to build for that. Now the wrestling is secondary and everything else is more important. It's backwards.


When did I say it was the "whole point of the show"? I'm saying that the entertainment and celebrity aspect was the big reason WWE succeeded past 1985.

I mean, even before this era, you had actors main eventing WWE's biggest shows like Wrestlemania and Summerslam, you had WWE produce cartoons, various celebrities with constant appearances on PPV, you even had a talk show for 6-7 years.

Show me a point, at anytime in WWE's history, where actual, good in ring wrestling was the main focus of the show? Their peak years where the "Golden Era", where the whole Rock N Wrestling connection took center stage and the "Attitude Era", where actual, quality wrestling was few and far in between, in favor of segments, promos, scantily clad women and once again, celebrity involvement. And as history shows, all the times that WWE actually focused more on the wrestling aspect, business went down in the mid 90's and ratings declined during "Ruthless Agression" (compared to rating of the AE).

Either way, entertainment/celebrity involvement has always been a big part of WWE's success and always will be, overall, not everybody is interested in seeing "wrestling clinics", never have been and never will be. You'll always have that percentage that watch for the entertainment, glamour and glitz.




KO Bossy said:


> The die hard wrestling fans got their Savage/Steamboat and the casuals got their Bob Uecker and Robert Goulet. However, the entire core of the entire show was wrestling with a soap opera flair.


And, you still have that today. You still have people that are entertained by whatever it is that Cena does or seeing RAW guest hosts or someone their to promote a movie or new show on USA. And for the die hard wrestling fans, you still have your CM Punk's, Daniel Bryan's and Dolph Ziggler's. It is still something for everybody but because of match placement or the booking of 1 certain guy, people seem to ignore that and bash the entire product.


----------



## NasJayz (Apr 25, 2004)

Well at lest it's better then smackdown.


----------



## Kabraxal (Jun 14, 2004)

Trouble Trouble said:


> When did I say it was the "whole point of the show"? I'm saying that the entertainment and celebrity aspect was the big reason WWE succeeded past 1985.
> 
> I mean, even before this era, you had actors main eventing WWE's biggest shows like Wrestlemania and Summerslam, you had WWE produce cartoons, various celebrities with constant appearances on PPV, you even had a talk show for 6-7 years.
> 
> ...


Seriously... you never watched it did you? People paid to see Hogan beat the crap out of Piper. That is in the ring. People paid to see Hogan beat Andre. Again, in the ring. People paid to see the fueds end in a fucking match, not a celebrity prancing around a ring or a mindless promo leading nowhere all the fucking time. 

Everything built towards the match... the money. The reason to buy. They didn't build it around the promo. You didn't spend money to watch Hogan talk, you paid to see him slam Andre the Giant. So yeah... the matches were the selling point.


----------



## Jupiter Jack Daniels (Jul 18, 2011)

Kabraxal said:


> Seriously... you never watched it did you? People paid to see Hogan beat the crap out of Piper. That is in the ring. People paid to see Hogan beat Andre. Again, in the ring. People paid to see the fueds end in a fucking match, not a celebrity prancing around a ring or a mindless promo leading nowhere all the fucking time.
> 
> Everything built towards the match... the money. The reason to buy. They didn't build it around the promo. You didn't spend money to watch Hogan talk, you paid to see him slam Andre the Giant. So yeah... the matches were the selling point.


No, I didn't watch Hogan beat the crap out of Piper, because I was born in FUCKING 1986!

And it doesn't matter if I did or didn't watch, the formula remains the same. Celebrity involvement (or a horrific tragedy/scandal) is what gets mainstream appeal, PEOPLE WATCH TO BE ENTERTAINED. Those same people you say "paid" to see Hogan beat the crap out of Piper, paid the very next year to see Mr. T, an "actor" beat the crap out of Piper, then paid a few years later to see Tiny Lister, an "actor" get his ass kicked by Hogan. 

And even this day, people still attend the actual "show" based on the wrestling, not the promos or entertainment aspect. But, you're lying to yourself if you say that wasn't a big part of WWE's success. It wasn't until you had Cyndi Lauper, Mr. T and other celebrities, appearing on WWE TV, that they began getting mainstream press, having a special on NBC, MTV, cartoons and various other outside projects that brought in the bulk of McMahon's fortune. Bruno Sammartino/Bob Backlund didn't take WWE mainstream, the characters, the glamour, the glitz, the Rock N Wrestling connection, the celebrity involvement is what took WWE to that level and at the end of the day, entertainment is what made WWE successful.

The same people that came to see Hogan/Piper, where there before to see Rogers/Graham. And WWE wasn't mainstream with Rogers/Graham. Without the celebrity involvement, WWE would have never succeeded outside of the northeast and would have died after 1985. Why do you think Vince went all out with the mainstream publicity leading up to the first Wrestlemania? Why do you think Vince reached out to various celebrities leading up to that event? And why do you think Vince credits those celebrities for the success of WM? He wouldn't have reached that mainstream level, without help from those celebrities/entertainers. Yeah, people would still attend the shows but would WWE have made it on MTV, NBC, Saturday morning cartoons and various movie involvement? It all ties in to entertainment, wrestling has been here since the 1800's but it didn't garner mainstream attention until Vince reached out to various celebrities, which in turn, got him in the eyes of the press.


----------



## Schrute_Farms (Nov 27, 2009)

AJ is the most over wrestler on the entire roster right now.


----------



## Godfather- (Jan 4, 2012)

It's not even bad. Honestly.


----------



## Kabraxal (Jun 14, 2004)

Trouble Trouble said:


> No, I didn't watch Hogan beat the crap out of Piper, because I was born in FUCKING 1986!
> 
> And it doesn't matter if I did or didn't watch, the formula remains the same. Celebrity involvement (or a horrific tragedy/scandal) is what gets mainstream appeal, PEOPLE WATCH TO BE ENTERTAINED. Those same people you say "paid" to see Hogan beat the crap out of Piper, paid the very next year to see Mr. T, an "actor" beat the crap out of Piper, then paid a few years later to see Tiny Lister, an "actor" get his ass kicked by Hogan.
> 
> ...


Hogan was the reason... yes some of the spectacle helped, but it was Hogan/Piper/Savage and all the wrestlers that were there EVERY day that sold tickets to every event. Sorry to break it to you, but celebrities only played a small part in the actual success of 80s. Everyone that actually knows anything will tell you that it was the mixture of Savage/Steamboat matches with Hogan/Andre matches, with a lot of flair to entice people into the feud and would gladly pay money to see the PAY OFF. Celebrities were a little treat for casuals to get their attention, but it was all a ploy to get them to watch the entire product and get them hooked on what happened in the ring. Now it is completely backwards and the WWE can't be assed with even booking a damn proper feud anymore

Seriously, are you a WWE schill or something? Only a fool or a current employee would think people turn to a wrestling organisation to watch other forms of entertainment. Course, McMahon is one of those fools and it is beginning to bite him in the ass hard. We watch the WWE for wrestling... we already have MTV and CBS and USA for our other forms of entertainment. The WWE shouldn't try to emulate them at all. It isn't the point of the damn show.


----------



## KO Bossy (Oct 23, 2011)

Trouble Trouble said:


> And, you still have that today. You still have people that are entertained by whatever it is that Cena does or seeing RAW guest hosts or someone their to promote a movie or new show on USA. And for the die hard wrestling fans, you still have your CM Punk's, Daniel Bryan's and Dolph Ziggler's. It is still something for everybody but because of match placement or the booking of 1 certain guy, people seem to ignore that and bash the entire product.


It goes deeper than that, though. Its not JUST Cena's booking, its a lot of different things. For example:

-the fans really don't care about Alberto Del Rio, yet we're still seeing him in the main event and world title pictures
-the fans are starting to get behind Dolph Ziggler, yet saddled him with Vickie and Swagger, then when they had the chance to break them apart and move Ziggler up, they kept him right where he is
-the fans wanted to see more Punk and Bryan. Instead, they got Kane randomly thrown in there as well
-the smart business decision at ER was to have Brock destroy Cena. Instead, after a month of excellent build, they had Brock lose, effectively killing his momentum in his first match
-Brodus Clay is just an entrance with really bad in ring ability, yet he's still getting thrown in our faces and we're being told that he's a superstar, we can't see that fact, we have to be told
-the world titles mean absolutely nothing, let alone any other title in the company

Its just clusterfuck city. Oh here's another one-5 or 6 on 1 babyface advantage over the heel in a shitty overbooked NWO main event. Typically, booking says that it should be the babyface should overcome the heel advantage, not the heel overcoming the babyface advantage, that makes no sense. Yet we saw it, and all of Big Show's huge heel turn over the past month? Gone. He's just become Cena's monthly opponent.

The reason people rag on Cena is because he's in the main event, which let's be honest is the main focus of the show. And since he's been involved in pure crap as of late, people blame him for it. I give credit where credit is due-its Vince, the bookers and writers who are making Raw so bad. However, Cena deserves his portion of the blame because he's a prick that no sells his opponents and tries to inject unfunny, unnecessary comedy into his promos that seriously bring the quality down. However, I'm not going to blame him for being told to go out and dump BBQ sauce on a mostly nude Michael Cole. That's Vince and the writers' fault. Cena's promos, on the other hand, are all him. Do you really think the promos are scripted? Hell no, Vince thinks Cena is great at mic work and he just probably at the MOST gives him bullet points to cover. The comedy? All Cena. That IS his fault.


----------



## That Guy (Jun 30, 2009)

Raw improved this week and last after the 3 hour shows, but it still has a lot of work to do before all of it is watchable. Though I must say it is starting to move forwrad in the right direction.


----------



## Jupiter Jack Daniels (Jul 18, 2011)

Kabraxal said:


> Hogan was the reason... yes some of the spectacle helped, but it was Hogan/Piper/Savage and all the wrestlers that were there EVERY day that sold tickets to every event. Sorry to break it to you, but celebrities only played a small part in the actual success of 80s. Everyone that actually knows anything will tell you that it was the mixture of Savage/Steamboat matches with Hogan/Andre matches, with a lot of flair to entice people into the feud and would gladly pay money to see the PAY OFF. Celebrities were a little treat for casuals to get their attention, but it was all a ploy to get them to watch the entire product and get them hooked on what happened in the ring. Now it is completely backwards and the WWE can't be assed with even booking a damn proper feud anymore
> 
> Seriously, are you a WWE schill or something? Only a fool or a current employee would think people turn to a wrestling organisation to watch other forms of entertainment.  Course, McMahon is one of those fools and it is beginning to bite him in the ass hard. We watch the WWE for wrestling... we already have MTV and CBS and USA for our other forms of entertainment. The WWE shouldn't try to emulate them at all. It isn't the point of the damn show.


Do you even know why Wrestlemania 1 was a success?

In 1984, Vince aired 2 specials on MTV, in order to hype his upcoming Wrestlemania event, which, if failed, would have ended Vince and WWE. So, thats where "The Brawl For It All" and "The War To Settle The Score" came in, to give awareness about the product to those who weren't actual wrestling fans. And guess what, it worked. That provided Vince with the formula of always bringing in celebrities for big events, in hopes that it attracts a large audience, just like he did with the first Wrestlemania.

I mean, if a wrestling show should only attract wrestling fans, why would Vince and his talent appear on various talk shows, other programs, cartoons, music videos and other outside projects? To get more fans, just like they did in 1984 by appearing on MTV. I mean, if you only wanted the wrestling fans, you wouldn't go on other types of shows to promote your product to that demographic, that isn't wrestling fans.

Do you think everybody just started off watching based on the in ring product?





KO Bossy said:


> It goes deeper than that, though. Its not JUST Cena's booking, its a lot of different things. For example:
> 
> -the fans really don't care about Alberto Del Rio, yet we're still seeing him in the main event and world title pictures
> -the fans are starting to get behind Dolph Ziggler, yet saddled him with Vickie and Swagger, then when they had the chance to break them apart and move Ziggler up, they kept him right where he is
> ...


But the show is more than Cena. 

For example, I watch Saturday Night Live. Only enjoyment I get out of the show is from Kristen Wiig (pissed because she left), Fred Armisen and various guest hosts. I hate Taran Kilam, Abby Elliot is not funny and I hate most of the musical guests. But, instead of saying the overall show sucks, I enjoy it for the little I do like and ignore the negatives because at the end of the day, I'm not forced to watch it, it's by choice. And if I choose to watch a shitty program and complain about it constantly, I blame myself for choosing to remain watching a show that I know will be shitty. And despite my feelings about Taran Kilam and Abby Elliot, I won't let them ruin the remainder of the show for me because there is always that option to not watch, instead of thinking the entire show should cater to me and what I want to see.

And we all know that RAW isn't 100% bad. As long as there is 1 match/segment you look forward to seeing, then be thankful and enjoy that because you will never have an entire 2 hour plus show that you can say was perfect from top to bottom.


----------



## Kabraxal (Jun 14, 2004)

Trouble Trouble said:


> Do you even know why Wrestlemania 1 was a success?
> 
> In 1984, Vince aired 2 specials on MTV, in order to hype his upcoming Wrestlemania event, which, if failed, would have ended Vince and WWE. So, thats where "The Brawl For It All" and "The War To Settle The Score" came in, to give awareness about the product to those who weren't actual wrestling fans. And guess what, it worked. That provided Vince with the formula of always bringing in celebrities for big events, in hopes that it attracts a large audience, just like he did with the first Wrestlemania.
> 
> ...


WM1 was a success because of the spectacle yes, but did WM1 last 6 damn years? Hint hint hint.. no. Did he book every show like that for 6 years? Hint hint hint... no. The heart and soul of the WWF in that era was still the in ring product. WMIII had less celebrity spectacle than WM1 or WM2 really... considering what MR T did... and it was sold on Andre/Hogan. It shattered records. That show was absolutely packed with WRESTLING, especially compared to today.

WMIV... hmmm, a wrestling tournament was the sell. WMV... Savage/Hogan. WMVI.. Warrior/Hogan. Funny, all these Wrestlemania's selling on a feud ending in the ring. No... can't be, those Wrestlemanias only sold because of some celebrity in a 5 minute segment. Yep... totally.

Hell, even in the Attitude Era the spectacle was still about getting into the ring for at least a wild brawl. Not the most technically preficient ME scene, but then they still had the tag and IC division that brought in veiwers as well. The Hardy/E&C/Dudley feuds were almost sold as a second main event for christ sake. 

But go ahead... keep on believing you know what you're talking about and spouting this ridiculous bullshit that the WWE is on the right path and doing well. Anyone that has looked into the ratins has seen that steady decline from year to year to year. Oops... wait, this isn't a place for intelligent debate with facts and actual understanding. Go ahead and ignore all that like you already are.


----------



## KO Bossy (Oct 23, 2011)

Trouble Trouble said:


> But the show is more than Cena.
> 
> For example, I watch Saturday Night Live. Only enjoyment I get out of the show is from Kristen Wiig (pissed because she left), Fred Armisen and various guest hosts. I hate Taran Kilam, Abby Elliot is not funny and I hate most of the musical guests. But, instead of saying the overall show sucks, I enjoy it for the little I do like and ignore the negatives because at the end of the day, I'm not forced to watch it, it's by choice. And if I choose to watch a shitty program and complain about it constantly, I blame myself for choosing to remain watching a show that I know will be shitty. And despite my feelings about Taran Kilam and Abby Elliot, I won't let them ruin the remainder of the show for me because there is always that option to not watch, instead of thinking the entire show should cater to me and what I want to see.
> 
> And we all know that RAW isn't 100% bad. As long as there is 1 match/segment you look forward to seeing, then be thankful and enjoy that because you will never have an entire 2 hour plus show that you can say was perfect from top to bottom.


Yes, Cena is not the entire show, but just about the entire show I find almost painful to watch. 

In my case, there's so little I'm finding appealing that its not worth watching. What's the point in tuning in on the off chance that there might be a great Paul Heyman promo? If its advertised, I'll watch that segment. Punk and Bryan is somewhat enjoyable, but the fact that they've muddled it up with Kane and given it so little build is really just disappointing. Ziggler is great, but again, then they go off and ruin him some other way (like keeping him with Vickie). The rest is so pointless, forgettable and flat out bad. I find that generally, unless I read about something they're advertising for the next week on this site that I might like, there's no point in tuning into Raw because I won't like what happens. And in fact, I've skipped the past 2 Raws, and from what I've read they've been crap.

Basically, I find that largely the time I spend watching Raw is time that I'm just wasting, aside from the odd 5-15 minutes. When I compare this to prior years when I'd sit through the entire show and be happy with a good portion of what I saw, I feel kinda stupid that I'm subjecting myself to this horridness week after week. 1 5 minute segment really doesn't seem to be able to make up 2 hours and 15 minutes of my time.


----------



## Jupiter Jack Daniels (Jul 18, 2011)

Kabraxal said:


> WM1 was a success because of the spectacle yes, but did WM1 last 6 damn years? Hint hint hint.. no. Did he book every show like that for 6 years? Hint hint hint... no. The heart and soul of the WWF in that era was still the in ring product. WMIII had less celebrity spectacle than WM1 or WM2 really... considering what MR T did... and it was sold on Andre/Hogan. It shattered records. That show was absolutely packed with WRESTLING, especially compared to today.
> 
> WMIV... hmmm, a wrestling tournament was the sell. WMV... Savage/Hogan. WMVI.. Warrior/Hogan. Funny, all these Wrestlemania's selling on a feud ending in the ring. No... can't be, those Wrestlemanias only sold because of some celebrity in a 5 minute segment. Yep... totally.
> 
> ...


But, you're still speaking from the POV of what you think everybody wants to see and what everybody finds entertaining.

I mean, isn't it obvious the reason Vince does all this entertainment and segments with celebrities is to attract non wrestling viewers into enjoying his product, and becoming his new demographic? I mean, because if he was too appeal to the same audience he's had for years, how would he gain more viewers, publicity, revenue? It's all about money and I agree, the constant entertainment aspect is quite boring but at the end of the day, it makes him money and that is all he cares about. If he was even close to losing large amounts of money, don't you think he'd have made a change by now?

You bring up the AE. Still had celebrity involvement to attract the non wrestling crowd and still was an entertainment heavy product. Yeah, you had your "wild brawls" but you still had scantily clad women, Playboy promotion and mainstream/talk show appearances. Either way, the entertainment was always there. Do you think the sole reason Vince is likely a billionaire because of strictly wrestling? Wrestling makes money but the ability to entertain and even cater to non wrestling fans is what got his pockets fat.

And when did I say that certain WM's were sold, based on celebrity involvement. I said, the celebrity involvement before and at WM 1, was the sole reason for Vince's success. He even admitted that if that WM bombed, WWE would have went out of business. I mean damn, he credits the success of the first event on the celebrity appearances and if it didn't succeed, we wouldn't have had 27 more. What part of that are you ignoring, Vince said it himself.

You can have a PPV with nothing but wrestling matches, no angles, no celebrities and the only people that will watch are the fans you already have, possibly losing some because not everybody wants to see wrestling clinics. But, you can keep that as part of your show and add in the entertainment and celebrity involvement, with the potential to gain more viewers and possibly get them to tune into the product.

Isn't it about expanding your audience? What non wrestling fan is going to see Hogan/Piper and say "I want to see that"? Throw in Mr. T, Liberace and Muhammad Ali and you have the chance to gain extra viewers who aren't familiar with wrestling and might see something they like.

Regardless of what you say, celebrity involvement has been proven to be the perfect way for Vince to gain new viewers.



KO Bossy said:


> Yes, Cena is not the entire show, but just about the entire show I find almost painful to watch.
> 
> In my case, there's so little I'm finding appealing that its not worth watching. What's the point in tuning in on the off chance that there might be a great Paul Heyman promo? If its advertised, I'll watch that segment. Punk and Bryan is somewhat enjoyable, but the fact that they've muddled it up with Kane and given it so little build is really just disappointing. Ziggler is great, but again, then they go off and ruin him some other way (like keeping him with Vickie). The rest is so pointless, forgettable and flat out bad. I find that generally, unless I read about something they're advertising for the next week on this site that I might like, there's no point in tuning into Raw because I won't like what happens. And in fact, I've skipped the past 2 Raws, and from what I've read they've been crap.
> 
> Basically, I find that largely the time I spend watching Raw is time that I'm just wasting, aside from the odd 5-15 minutes. When I compare this to prior years when I'd sit through the entire show and be happy with a good portion of what I saw, I feel kinda stupid that I'm subjecting myself to this horridness week after week. 1 5 minute segment really doesn't seem to be able to make up 2 hours and 15 minutes of my time.


I totally understand, hard to stay interested in a show when you only enjoy 1 segment and fear tuning out because you might miss something good.

Thats why you take the risk. Eventually, the show may get better but you got to keep a bright outlook and hope that it does. The second you lose hope and give up, WWE has won and got rid of another, possible die hard fan, in favor of children who will buy anything you sell them.

See, due to my sometimes support of Cena, people think I'm happy with the way he is. Not true at all. I use to watch a lot of baseball, was a huge Atlanta Braves fan. When they began sucking, I quit watching. Point is, I'd rather they have that one turnaround moment that I miss, that can reel me back in, instead of constantly watching thru the struggle and find myself questioning why I watch.

It just gets me how often people complain. There will always be a problem with the show, especially when it's targeting a completely different demographic but the same demographic we were in when we began watching. Doesn't mean that WWE should cater to us, we'll likely tune out eventually, anyway. The younger audience is what is going to keep pumping cash into the company.


----------



## Kalashnikov (Dec 30, 2010)

Last week was good, this show however, I ff'd through it in 15 minutes. Barely anything interesting.


----------



## septurum (Mar 16, 2009)

It has it's ups and downs but I usually find something I like every week. Shows have been pretty average as of late though.


----------



## JohnB (Feb 1, 2010)

I've stopped watching WWE programming.


----------



## anseld1548 (Jun 11, 2012)

SVETV988_fan said:


> I agree. This show was missing something..


went to the Live Raw taping last night it was missing ALOT there were so many start & stops it left me feeling a bit empty

except for the Sheamus/Punk vs Bryan/Kane (AJ? that was the best part her skipping around in Kane's copy cat mask that sh*t was hysterical even better while I was in the Coliseum watching it go down LMAO)


what was even more funny was they are having a "house show" on dec 28, 2012 at nassau coliseum & wondering if "house shows" are any better or are they still hit or miss than a live Raw/Smackdown taping???

maybe I'm spoiled at home watching Raw/Smackdown BUT really was hoping Punk/Sheamus would do some kind of trash talking in the ring last night BUT for my first time attendance it was OK. Nothing to write home about BUT it was somewhat watchable.


----------



## JoshVanDam (Oct 23, 2011)

the thing with WWE that is really getting me atm, is that its so obvious who is going to win matches. AND im sick of seeing superpunk and supershaemus kick out of everyones finishers like they were nothing do some crappy counter hit there finsher and win. the last few PPVs since WM have been so incredably predictable.


----------



## CHAMPviaDQ (Jun 19, 2012)

KO Bossy said:


> Well, the ratings have been horrendous lately, drawing in the 2s a couple of times. Low ratings=cancellation by the network, no network=no tv deal, no tv deal=a lot less money, no tv deal=very little exposure, very little exposure and a lot less money=dying business. So unless they start shaping up their shit, ratings will continue to decline to the point where they completely alienate their audience with their shit booking and stupid decisions, and then its goodbye. So yeah, a 2.7 rating 3 weeks ago...is that really indicative of how many people enjoy this shit? Because they were apparently enjoying it a lot more a year and a bit ago...
> 
> The big problem with this company is that it is centered around 1 guy and 1 guy only-John Cena. You look at ANY other era and you can find at least a few guys that attention was evenly distributed to. In the Golden Age you had Hogan, Savage, Andre, Warrior, Slaughter, DiBiase, etc. In the New Generation, you had Hart, Michaels, Yokozuna, Diesel and company. In Attitude, you had Austin, Rock, Foley, Hunter, Angle, Undertaker, Kane, etc. In Ruthless Aggression you had Hunter, Benoit, Angle, Lesnar, Eddie, Batista, etc. Who the hell do you have now? John Cena. Forget Punk, Sheamus and the rest, they are complete filler compared to the attention John Cena gets. The Fed has literally placed all their eggs in one basket. Its Cena or its nothing. And guess what? John Cena could work...if there were some other guys with whom he could share the attention with. You know, actually develop a little bit of competition. But no, they've made it clear that Cena is literally the only person whom they have faith in to main event for this company. Guess what? Its become boring as hell seeing the same person at the top time after time after time after time after time. Its not longer about story progression and getting other people over, its become "who will John Cena face this month that he hasn't already? Ok, its this guy. 3 weeks of build, Cena beats him. Ok next victim." Why in the fuck would I want to watch that? I wouldn't. So I don't. And most people on this site don't want to watch it either. But hey, the stupid kids want to. Because, you know, they're 6 and still wet the bed occasionally and like to touch dead birds in their backyard. What the hell is the Fed going to do in 5 years when Cena is inevitably still in the main event and these kids have developed their tastes a bit more and start no longer caring about Cena? Just recycle and grab in the next generation? What if Cena was to die right this instant? This company would be so completely screwed. It would basically be the end for them. Yet despite this knowledge, they still put off the fact that one day pretty boy won't be around anymore and they'll have to rely on someone else. And when that day comes, they're dead. Why? They don't HAVE anyone else. They've put off for years and years building up and other talent to progress into the main event that when the time comes that they'll need them, there won't be anyone. Hence they do it on the fly, which is oddly enough how the book Raw. That's why you see losers like Del Rio with 2 title reigns and no one gives a flying fuck about them. They say "oh shit, we need more main event talent, but we've spent all our time building up the guy who has been over for the past 7 years, so we have no one. Well lets just introduce this guy, call him a Mexican aristocrat, have him win the Rumble and MiTB and give him 2 WWE Titles in 2 months. That should make the fans care about him, after all, he's a former champion!" Newsflash, that doesn't work, its never worked and it will never work because its retarded. The only thing that will get a guy over is exposure to the fans. Once that happens, over time, they will boo him as a heel or love him as a face. You can't force it, it will only happen when the fans decide it. And as long as you've got Cena hogging that main event spot, you will never develop any other main eventers, and no more superstars. You will literally have Alberto Del Rios running around everywhere, with meaningless accomplishments that the fans care about as much as the gum they just stepped in on the way to the arena. And this is all because Vince is letting his idiot daughter and other "yes men" book and write when they clearly have no clue what they're doing, and because Vince is so afraid of not making every fucking penny off of John Cena's back that he's going to run this company into the ground.
> 
> And the day that happens, I'll be there. And I'll say 'good'. Because he'll deserve it for being an inept businessman who doesn't listen to his customers and by keeping an incompetent staff employed.


On point, *KO Bossy*.
Look it's simple, PG Era is for the kids, that's the bottom line and we all know that. The older generation of fans are given small compensations in the form of Lesnar/Rock type returns and occasional legends appearing here and there. The business model is this: Cater to the target demographic, which in this case doesn't take much and give the rest a tiny taste to keep them JUST interested enough to watch. The common theme here for the older audiences is 'We're waiting for something to happen'. 

I am a huge WWE fan, have been since the late 80's when I started watching. I just recently got back in to wrestling after who knows how many years, because I thought the product was bad. Yeah, I took a long hiatus because I'd rather not watch than subject myself to something I think is shit. I tuned in to TNA at the same time I came back to watching WWE, like others have said here, it is much better than what's going on in WWE. WWE has a lot of talent but it's wasted, TNA is on the right track and this might be the only way WWE is saved. Why? Well remember how WCW's rise? Vince was forced to takes risks, forced to re-evaluate the direction of the company. Punk said in an interview I hope Hogan going to TNA helps the company out, because he knows competition can be good for business especially in this PG Era. I'm sure many of these young Superstars didn't envision wrestling in the WWE in such a stale era. I want this company to rise above but as you can see a Vince without credible competition is a Vince that couldn't give a flying fuck. As long as TNA stays in Vince's rear view mirror he'll stay on course, but eventually Vince will be reminded that 'Objects in mirror are closer than they appear'. 

Ultimately, like *KO Bossy* said, this company has lost it's direction as a Wrestling Entertainment company in terms of alienating it's 'true' fans. It's almost coming full circle in a way though isn't it? Almost going back to the 80's with Cena as a poster boy a la Hogan, and kid friendly entertainment. Maybe, just maybe it's heading in to another 'Attitude' type era, wishful thinking I know, but in the end right now we're all in the same boat...we all are just 'waiting for something to happen'.


----------



## SporadicAttack (Jan 3, 2012)

I would say it's still watchable. I watch both Raw and Smackdown every week. I mean I'm not glued to my t.v., I definitely have my share of breaks and channel changes, but I'm just a huge wrestling fan and will watch until the day it goes off air.


----------



## Felpent (Jun 11, 2012)

Probably the worst. Cena still main eventing, Punk still WwE champion... talk about a stagnant product.


----------



## SportsFan4Life (Dec 30, 2011)

Doubt ill manage to watch it live soon enough after it goes to 3 hours especially with the over 9000 ad breaks at every turn, and after last night's piss poor showing yeeeeee......


----------



## fulcizombie (Jul 17, 2011)

JohnB said:


> I've stopped watching WWE programming.


Me too . If the big summer storyline is HHH with vince vs. Lesnar with Ace and cena/sheamus continue to bury everyone , there's no point in watching this shit .


----------



## NathWFC (Apr 15, 2011)

Colin Delaney said:


> So basically another complaint thread. Oh.. but this one has a poll ...okay.


It's not just "another complaint thread" is it? It's a thread where people can give their honest opinion on the current state of the product, and the vast majority appear to be very, very unhappy with it. Believe it or not, anyone who has a problem with the WWE's current direction isn't just fucking "complaining". Or are the sheep who blindly brown nose the WWE the only really fans and anyone who dares to actually question their current insult of programming nothing but moaners, whiners, complainers etc? You know, the usual sort of crap the likes of you come out with?


----------



## Maximum007 (Jan 29, 2010)

Struggling through. Didn't like Big Show main eventing AT ALL and I certainly didn't like Big "I botch my lines" Johnny as the General Manager either. Can't stand King on commentary anymore. His commentary isn't even PG it's G. It's so toned down and kid friendly it's ridiculous. Paul Heyman's recent promos are the only good thing about Raw.


----------



## Kabraxal (Jun 14, 2004)

Trouble Trouble said:


> But, you're still speaking from the POV of what you think everybody wants to see and what everybody finds entertaining.
> 
> I mean, isn't it obvious the reason Vince does all this entertainment and segments with celebrities is to attract non wrestling viewers into enjoying his product, and becoming his new demographic? I mean, because if he was too appeal to the same audience he's had for years, how would he gain more viewers, publicity, revenue? It's all about money and I agree, the constant entertainment aspect is quite boring but at the end of the day, it makes him money and that is all he cares about. If he was even close to losing large amounts of money, don't you think he'd have made a change by now?
> 
> ...


I'm not arguing against that for crying out loud... I'm arguing that it is enhancement and a small part of the whole product. Vince is now treating such things as the major factor of a WRESTLING business and that is why he is failing hard. In small doses, these entertaining sideshows are fine. Fun even. As the whole point of the show as they often are now a days, it is a joke and insulting to any real wrestling fan. 

This is a wrestling business... not MTV.


----------



## Dusty Roids (Sep 14, 2011)

seriously i started watching TNA again and I must say it was more entertaining than last RAW. I still watch RAW for CM Punk, Bryan, Orton, Jericho and ziggler. I haven't watched last smackdown because before ppvs it's mostly just plain boring. I am now at the point that i am so sick of anything involving cena in the main event i skip the last segments mostly. It can't be true that cena is better than anything, it just can't be.


----------



## Felpent (Jun 11, 2012)

Dusty Roids said:


> seriously i started watching TNA again and I must say it was more entertaining than last RAW. I still watch RAW for CM Punk, Bryan, Orton, Jericho and ziggler. I haven't watched last smackdown because before ppvs it's mostly just plain boring. I am now at the point that i am so sick of anything involving cena in the main event i skip the last segments mostly. It can't be true that cena is better than anything, it just can't be.


John Cena is better at selling tickets than entire TNA roster.


----------



## Audacity (Jul 24, 2010)

It's been awful since WrestleMania, but I think last night was an improvement, even with that horrific main event. The main events never seem to be good any more; they always feature Cena, Otunga, Laurinaitis, Tensai or even Michael Cole. I don't mind Cena, but I really wish they would keep him away from the dreadful, pointless, make-you-want-to-turn-off-the-TV feuds with announcers like Cole and GMs like Laurinaitis. I thought the main event with Cena and Cole 2 weeks ago was appalling and showed just how much RAW has regressed in recent times. It's a wonder how Otunga has ever made it to the main event, even if he always does get trounced by Cena.


----------



## Kabraxal (Jun 14, 2004)

Felpent said:


> John Cena is better at selling tickets than entire TNA roster.


Who cares? TNA is hands down the better product right now... there really isn't a debate about that. They just have to take the time to build the reputation back up and then who knows, they could pull a WCW and suddenly be trouncing the WWE in a couple of years.


----------



## fulcizombie (Jul 17, 2011)

Felpent said:


> John Cena is better at selling tickets than entire TNA roster.


No he is not . The only thing he is good at is selling t-shirts to kids the rest is the wwe marketing machine .


----------



## septurum (Mar 16, 2009)

Kabraxal said:


> Who cares? TNA is hands down the better product right now...



Smackdown > TNA.

TNA > Raw


----------



## Federation Bhoy (Jul 18, 2011)

Have to agree with some of the posts about TNA. They are putting on a decent show atm. RAW is obviously better than IMPACT, but its worrying by how little lately.


----------



## septurum (Mar 16, 2009)

Federation Bhoy said:


> RAW is obviously better than IMPACT,


Nope.


----------



## Lee_oh_Lee (May 28, 2011)

TNA is WAY better than Raw. Its watchable, well most of it, Raw is just unwatchable. The storyline with Dixie is the best thing going for them and it trumps and shitty ass wwe storyline. Except Kane/AJ. 
Spike TV sucks at promotion and so does TNA, that's why they hardly have any viewers.


----------



## SteenIsGod (Dec 20, 2011)

TNA is way better than Raw. Booking a strong champion that main events PPV's, Strong Mid Card Champion, Building New Stars etc. It's far better than Raw in every category.


----------



## Prideisking (Feb 21, 2011)

SteenIsGod said:


> TNA is way better than Raw. Booking a strong champion that main events PPV's, Strong Mid Card Champion, Building New Stars etc. It's far better than Raw in every category.


Except making sense. See the problem is that Vince doesnt have to worry about improving his product because he has no competetion


----------



## Notsure (May 11, 2009)

Lee_oh_Lee said:


> TNA is WAY better than Raw. Its watchable, well most of it, Raw is just unwatchable. The storyline with Dixie is the best thing going for them and it trumps and shitty ass wwe storyline. Except Kane/AJ.
> Spike TV sucks at promotion and so does TNA, that's why they hardly have any viewers.


I also love how Impact has kept AA and AJ away from each other, great classic build to a epic match up without a melodrama storyline. When they pull the trigger on that one hopefully at BFG it will be epic.



> Except making sense. See the problem is that Vince doesnt have to worry about improving his product because he has no competetion


TNA dose make sense right now and seem to have everything planed out long before it happens and allows storylines the time to slowly build, the Random booking left with Russo.


----------



## HBKRULEZ (May 5, 2004)

They are just going in a slow time right now, it should be picking up soonish as it is going into summerslam, i hope anyway, there are always good parts of the show but then that for me, for others it might be different.


----------



## Kazzenn (Apr 2, 2012)

Good to know there's some WWE fans who don't mindlessly bash TNA like it was 2010. Impact has been better than both Raw and Smackdown lately.


----------



## KilledAssassin (Jan 26, 2012)

RAW has been bad ever since they put big show in the main event


----------



## Jupiter Jack Daniels (Jul 18, 2011)

At the end of the day, I hope TNA stays on the right track, as that may be the only way Vince improves the product. If TNA loses momentum, we'll be stuck with what we have now.


----------



## Lee_oh_Lee (May 28, 2011)

^ KilledAssasin sure you can find more, legitimate reasons than that .if not, that was a waste of a post


----------



## wintersun1 (Apr 27, 2011)

It's been an abomination since extreme rules.



Spoiler for the next three months:


Cena overcomes the bad guys
HHH beats Lesnar
1,000th Raw features 40+ yr old guys yelling "suck it" to a bunch of 8 yr olds


----------



## paulborklaserheyma (Jun 12, 2012)

wintersun1 said:


> It's been an abomination since extreme rules.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


More like spoilers for next entire 7 years...


----------



## MM10 (Feb 22, 2011)

TNA is much better at the moment. I'm not some idiot fanboy either. I want both to be great because I'm a wrestling fan. Sadly, WWE has absolutely no direction at the moment, and TNA has the best story lines going. So glad Vince Russo was shown the door.


----------



## Mqwar (Jun 16, 2012)

Last RAW was fine imo.


----------



## NathWFC (Apr 15, 2011)

I'll keep bringing this thread up every single week until WWE puts out a show of at least 5/10 in quality. Tonight was a 3/10. I expect to be bumping for months to come. Fucking pile of shit.


----------



## Coffey (Dec 18, 2011)

Meh, I thought the show tonight was fine.


----------



## uniden (Jan 30, 2012)

just one word:

Aj


----------



## GCA-FF (Jul 26, 2011)

NathWFC said:


> I'll keep bringing this thread up every single week until WWE puts out a show of at least 5/10 in quality. Tonight was a 3/10. I expect to be bumping for months to come. Fucking pile of shit.


I would've just given it a 2...
1st point - the AJ/Kane/Punk/Bryan storyline
2nd point - the Divas Bikini Royal Match


----------



## SideTableDrawer (Apr 24, 2011)

It sucked about the same as last week, my God what has happend to Raw, it was pretty amazing in 2011 and the 1st quarter this year.


----------



## Bushmaster (Sep 28, 2010)

Raw always has its moment. Im sure we can pretty much agree that every Cena segment for the last couple weeks have made Raw look so damn bad. we could have a 10/10 Raw and once a Cena segment ended it would be a 4/10 at best. Guy is just super corny and is in a super boring feud with Show.


----------



## Striketeam (May 1, 2011)

Can't lie, its pretty tough to get through right now. I usually watch Raw to laugh at how bad it is but lately its getting to abysmal levels. The fact that one of the MITB matches is Cena/Kane/Show/Jericho in a 4-way just shows that they really are just throwing random shit together. Of course Cena will win, another reason not to watch it.


----------



## Irish Jet (Nov 15, 2011)

We;re hearing lines such as:

*"YOU'VE GOT TO CONTROL THE CONTRACT"*

Sums it up.


----------



## Svart (Jun 11, 2011)

Raw is still terrible. It's unintentionally funny for pete's sake. But what I did like about tonight's show is Jericho getting the upper hand on Cena in his promo. Raw.. hell, WWE seems to be in this perpetual state of repetition, whether or not different talent is used. I felt like Jericho's promo was a welcome change of pace, however small.


----------



## SPCDRI (Mar 15, 2010)

It has been unmitigated dog doo doo for the past 6 weeks. TNA slaughtered RAW. Again. 

I don't know if I'll watch RAW live anymore. Fuck it. It just stinks. I haven't seen it be this bad since I started rewatching 2009 guest host abortions to get caught up.


----------



## NathWFC (Apr 15, 2011)

Yes, as promised, until WWE puts out an acceptable show worth at least a 6/10, I'm bringing up this thread again.

What in the holy fuck was that shit? What an absolute fucking mess. The only part worth watching tonight was, once again, the legend vs Heath Slater segment. 56 year old Diamond Dallas Page stole the fucking show.

Also end this fucking AJ crap at MITB, it's gotten very, very stale, much like everything else in the WWE, coincidently.

This is fast becoming the worst year in WWE history. The product is an absolute disgrace.


----------



## kobra860 (Jan 29, 2005)

> This is fast becoming the worst year in WWE history.


2009 was way worse.


----------



## Brye (Jan 28, 2006)

Ending to the show was good, imo. The Bryan/Punk sequence was a nice sample of what we're gonna get at MITB.


----------



## NathWFC (Apr 15, 2011)

Brye said:


> Ending to the show was good, imo. The Bryan/Punk sequence was a nice sample of what we're gonna get at MITB.


In a way I agree, but not for the same reason. The only thing about the end of the show was good to me was that it didn't revolve entirely around fucking Cena, which is an absolute miracle that I don't expect to last. The Punk/Bryan/AJ storyline is stale and needs to end.


----------



## Brye (Jan 28, 2006)

NathWFC said:


> In a way I agree, but not for the same reason. The only thing about the end of the show was good to me was that it didn't revolve entirely around fucking Cena, which is an absolute miracle that I don't expect to last. The Punk/Bryan/AJ storyline is stale and needs to end.


I don't think it's stale, especially since the climax of the feud hasn't happened yet and presumably after MITB the direction will be fairly different.


----------



## NathWFC (Apr 15, 2011)

Brye said:


> I don't think it's stale, especially since the climax of the feud hasn't happened yet and presumably after MITB the direction will be fairly different.


It's just boring, it's the same crap every week. There needs to be a big pay off at MITB.


----------



## NathWFC (Apr 15, 2011)

Someone defend this fucking steaming pile of shit now? Absolutely disgraceful beyond words. WWE are just happily shitting all over our faces, they genuinely couldn't give a flying fuck about the fans or the quality of the product and tonight it's hit a low point that I've honestly never seen in wrestling before. Somehow WWE has completely lost all respect for it's own industry, it's disgusting.

Long term it wouldn't be a bad thing for the future of business if the WWE died.


----------



## Jupiter Jack Daniels (Jul 18, 2011)

Yeah, it really sucked tonight. I can't really find any positive.

However, I am excited for MITB and IDK why.


----------



## zxLegionxz (Nov 23, 2011)

After tonight im gonna go with lest just move to TNA until the 1000 raw show cause this is complete and utter shit


----------



## Rock316AE (Aug 12, 2011)

No need to say it again:



Rock316AE said:


> I believe you 100%. Like I said in the RAW thread. This is the first time in 15 years that I'm not watching RAW. Until now I watched it out of habit, but this boring AJ/Punk/Bryan shit is unbearable. 200 matches in a month when they're all the same, same crap, we had it with Kofi and Ziggler last year, although Kofi/Ziggler was a better series IMO. But 200 segments when half of them in one show? that's too much even for me. Not only the horrendous acting from AJ and Punk, but this embarrassing, unrealistic "YES" act.
> 
> I will check if Jericho/Show/Cena/Kane did something interesting and will watch it on YouTube. That's the only way I'm watching RAW today. I doubt that even the Lesnar/HHH/Heyman feud can make me watch an entire RAW again. This product is at an all-time low and this pathetic TV with Punk/Bryan/AJ is the reason for it. I remember WWE were MOCKING things like David Flair wedding on Nitro because his acting was brutal, but now that the standards have fallen to unbelievable levels, this is 100 times worse and David Flair looks like George Clooney.
> 
> The Camel's back is officially broken for me.


As a long time fan. RAW is just sad to watch for me now. Especially with all the great memories they're showing. It's depressing.


----------



## Notsure (May 11, 2009)

WOW the worse Raw gets the better Impact gets 3 good PPV's in a row and even the AJ/Dixie storyline is lame it has given us two of the best matchs of the year well AJ/Punk/Bryan feud is destroying the only two guys that were interesting all of last year.


----------



## The Hardcore Show (Apr 13, 2003)

Rock316AE said:


> No need to say it again:
> 
> 
> 
> As a long time fan. RAW is just sad to watch for me now. Especially with all the great memories they're showing. It's depressing.


Then again you think CM Punk should of never had a job with WWE in the first place. It's not his or Danielson's fault they dropped the ball on both of their characters the problem is Vince McMahon and the fact he could care less about the people who watch his show and think they can throw anything against the wall and people will accept it.


----------



## 123bigdave (Dec 26, 2008)

Going from Destination X to Raw has been like being a Make a Wish kid that died the day after hugging Mila Kunis


----------



## Y2-Jerk (Aug 18, 2011)

The last few weeks I would have said I'm still enjoying it but after tonight that was beyond terrible. I hope that never happens again if it does I might just have to stop watching for a few months.


----------



## holt_hogan (Jun 28, 2011)

The majority of folks on here just aren't the target audience anymore. It really is as simple as that.


----------



## -Skullbone- (Sep 20, 2006)

^^^Exactly right.

A lot of you people expect a little too much methinks.


----------



## The Hardcore Show (Apr 13, 2003)

-Skullbone- said:


> ^^^Exactly right.
> 
> A lot of you people expect a little too much methinks.


The audience that Vince can brainwash is the target audience these days.


----------



## Domenico (Nov 14, 2011)

I think tonight pretty much confirmed that the mature audience has become the casual audience in the WWE's eyes and that the children have become the hardcore audience which defines WWE. Face it, even with the comment Cena made, it's obvious WWE is now more meant for children with the occasional scraps for the mature audience like The Rock.


----------



## The Hardcore Show (Apr 13, 2003)

Domenico said:


> I think tonight pretty much confirmed that the mature audience has become the casual audience in the WWE's eyes and that the children have become the hardcore audience which defines WWE. Face it, even with the comment Cena made, it's obvious WWE is now more meant for children with the occasional scraps for the mature audience like The Rock.


I blame Linda McMahon and sponsors like Mattel for this bullshit.


----------



## Oh Lymping Hero! (Aug 23, 2010)

holt_hogan said:


> The majority of folks on here just aren't the target audience anymore. It really is as simple as that.


That's true, but even for kids stuff it's still awful. I mean Toy Story 3 was aimed at kids but that was one of the best films for all ages of the modern era.


----------



## Marv95 (Mar 9, 2011)

holt_hogan said:


> The majority of folks on here just aren't the target audience anymore. It really is as simple as that.


Yet most of their audience is made up of adults according to their corporate site. And even if it wasn't, Bataman TAS wasn't geared to "us" and it wasn't as horribly written, cringeworthy and so freaking watered down as this crap.


----------



## NathWFC (Apr 15, 2011)

-Skullbone- said:


> ^^^Exactly right.
> 
> A lot of you people expect a little too much methinks.


Expect too much? Are you fucking shitting me?! Yeah, how dare I expect a show that doesn't completely fucking insult my intelligence, insult me as wrestling a fan and insult the industry I love.

The problem isn't even that it's aimed at kids, its that regardless of the target audience, the writing, the booking and the overall quality of the product is an absolute fucking disgrace.


----------



## Rock316AE (Aug 12, 2011)

When people say: "The target audience is different", they realize that more than 80% of the RAW viewers are +18? There's no excuses here.


----------



## The Hardcore Show (Apr 13, 2003)

Rock316AE said:


> When people say: "The target audience is different", they realize that more than 80% of the RAW viewers are +18? There's no excuses here.


Then explain to me why Raw is written in way where the only people that fins this shit entertaining are VERY casual fans or children.


----------



## holt_hogan (Jun 28, 2011)

Rock316AE said:


> When people say: "The target audience is different", they realize that more than 80% of the RAW viewers are +18? There's no excuses here.


This is incorrect.


----------



## Notsure (May 11, 2009)

-Skullbone- said:


> ^^^Exactly right.
> 
> A lot of you people expect a little too much methinks.


Or only a Jar-Jar Binks fan can enjoy the shit they put on Raw these days and also when Impact trumps miles above you I think it's not expecting to much at all. To be honest they could just make Smackdown good again it would be easy and let the Kids and Cena have Raw but now there is nothing good going on in the WWE. Why not have Chris Jericho, CM Punk, Dolph Ziggler, The Miz, R-Truth, Alberto Del Rio, Tensai, Christian, Wade Barrett and Daniel Bryan on Smackdown and let them have more of a serious wrestling show where their talents can shine through much better. Why not let WWE fans who don't want to see story line written for kids have a other show they can enjoy instead of having the piss poor ratings Smackdown gets now as a B show with no real separation or feel that is differnt from Raw.


----------



## NearFall (Nov 27, 2011)

holt_hogan said:


> This is incorrect.


He is correct.
From WWE corporates:



> Balanced age distribution with 74% of the audience aged 21 or older.
> 21 % of our audience is under 18 years old
> 25 % of our audience is 18-34 years old
> 23 % of our audience is 35-49 years old
> 30 % of our audience is 50+ years old


*Link:* 
http://corporate.wwe.com/company/overview.jsp


----------



## Trumpet Thief (Dec 27, 2005)

I'd make a bet that the bulk of the entire 'UFC' audience is people who used to watch the Attitude Era/Ruthless Agression product of the WWE and were turned away around '07. I do know that a bunch of my friends and I stopped watching at that time, and 'The Rock' brought me back last year.


----------



## Rockstar (Jul 5, 2007)

Raw has been horrible lately. This is the worst it has been in a long time. I just hope it gets better when it goes to three hours and then they can fit in mid carders, longer matches, more interesting storylines, etc. etc. Or it could just be an extra hour of garbage.


----------



## holt_hogan (Jun 28, 2011)

NearFall said:


> He is correct.
> From WWE corporates:
> 
> 
> ...


Ah ok, must be correct if it's written on WWE's website. Nielsen who actually use audience measurement systems each week must be wrong then.


----------



## Trumpet Thief (Dec 27, 2005)

Rockstar said:


> Raw has been horrible lately. This is the worst it has been in a long time. I just hope it gets better when it goes to three hours and then they can fit in mid carders, longer matches, more interesting storylines, etc. etc. Or it could just be an extra hour of garbage.


It's going to be more backstage Santino/Hornswoggle skits, I'm afraid.


----------



## JT Martin (Mar 18, 2012)

It's so bad that it makes 2009 Raw watchable.


----------



## -Skullbone- (Sep 20, 2006)

NathWFC said:


> Expect too much? Are you fucking shitting me?! Yeah, how dare I expect a show that doesn't completely fucking insult my intelligence, insult me as wrestling a fan and insult the industry I love.
> 
> The problem isn't even that it's aimed at kids, its that regardless of the target audience, the writing, the booking and the overall quality of the product is an absolute fucking disgrace.


Settle.

For goodness sakes, it's _professional wrestling_. You expect a level of quality that a lot of mainstream casuals wouldn't care about or invest in due to how they see it; a high-octane source of entertainment and eye candy. Fun for the family, people of all ages, etc. How a business and show is run can be done tastefully and received well by insiders, but in most outsiders eye it is a ridiculous business. A lot of people still can't get past the fact it's "fake fighting" (apparently a few can't here either, judging from the Mic Skills vs Ring Skills thread). 

The younger generations are the ones that grow up with this stuff and carry it through. On the other hand, however, the older audiences appear to be a secondary group in the collective mindset of the business. Maybe they doubt their loyalty or think they're too fickle as consumers? I don't believe it's a good philosophy at all, yet it appears the company does subscribe to something along the lines of it (frankly I believe it's a case of a company not respecting its audience enough, but that's for another time). 

You're a grown up now and your tastes have changed. I won't ask, tell or plead with you to change the channel because I believe "your love" of this industry will prevent you from doing so. In fact, I think a lot of people just mindlessly tune in based on habit alone. Heh.


----------



## 1TheRockHHH (Jul 24, 2011)

This is how I currently feel about RAW right now


----------



## Notsure (May 11, 2009)

C.M. Punk: “I didn’t see it, but congrats to Austin Aries, Samoa Joe, and Zema Ion. Looks like somebody finally gets it. Kudos.”

Wonder if Punk an say the same about WWE at this time?


----------



## Isuzu (Apr 1, 2011)

Once the Jabroni beater comes back to raw on a steady basisbusiness will pick up. He has and always will be monday night raw.


----------



## Jupiter Jack Daniels (Jul 18, 2011)

-Skullbone- said:


> I think a lot of people just mindlessly tune in based on habit alone. Heh.


Basically, it's the reason why I watch. Since I was a kid, I've been accustomed to watching wrestling on Monday nights, regardless of how shitty it is because as bad as RAW may seem now, I've seen worse.


----------



## NearFall (Nov 27, 2011)

holt_hogan said:


> Ah ok, must be correct if it's written on WWE's website. Nielsen who actually use audience measurement systems each week must be wrong then.


It's just you can't base the entire audience on one RAW, thats all, the ratings system is pretty fine.


----------



## -Skullbone- (Sep 20, 2006)

> Basically, it's the reason why I watch. Since I was a kid, I've been accustomed to watching wrestling on Monday nights, regardless of how shitty it is because as bad as RAW may seem now, I've seen worse.


What do you expect when watching it?


----------



## Jupiter Jack Daniels (Jul 18, 2011)

Entertainment, obviously.


----------



## -Skullbone- (Sep 20, 2006)

And do you get enough of it?


----------



## MM10 (Feb 22, 2011)

Raw is fucking terrible. Thank God for TNA.


----------



## Stroker Ace (Apr 8, 2011)

MM10 said:


> Raw is fucking terrible. Thank God for TNA.


That is why you need other companies around.

Always have an alternative.


----------



## Jupiter Jack Daniels (Jul 18, 2011)

-Skullbone- said:


> And do you get enough of it?


I didn't get any tonight. Cena's promo was the closest possible entertainment I got, which isn't saying much because it was a typical pre-PPV Cena promo.


----------



## Jatt Kidd (Jan 28, 2004)

Usually there's a big summer storyline annually...Nexus, Summer of Punk, Shawn/HHH 2002, Invasion in 2001, I mean something BIG. 

This year...I swear if its nothing but AJ/Bryan/Punk, John Cena cutting a promo quoting politicians left and right, Cole/Lawler, Santino and Hornswaggle eating ass in the ring, Sheamus squash, a fat man doing the disco with his breasts popping out of his singlet, jeez...

It's going to be a long summer. You know they're just waiting for the 1000th episode to really get things going.


----------



## -Skullbone- (Sep 20, 2006)

Trouble Trouble said:


> I didn't get any tonight. Cena's promo was the closest possible entertainment I got, which isn't saying much because it was a typical pre-PPV Cena promo.


If someone feels continually let down (not saying that's the case all the time with you), yet still tunes in and bemoans the current state of the product each and every week then what can be taken away from this? Not necessarily saying you've done this; more a shout out to those that continually do. 

So all you loyal patrons out there, what do you think? Wouldn't you be better off doing something more productive with your time if you truly can't stomach the current product? 

Unless you just like friendly banter, talking shit, etc about a television show within these community forums. That's fair enough.


----------



## Theproof (Apr 9, 2009)

Let me put it this way. The day that TNA and ROH go out of business is the day I stop watching wrestling. The WWE is at a point where I feel insulted whenever I watch there shows with the shit they pull. They can bring back all of the the old stars they want but it still won't change a thing with the horrible booking they have.


----------



## Jupiter Jack Daniels (Jul 18, 2011)

Well, I for one don't usually bash the show but tonight was horrible. So, I can say this is the first show in a long time where I wasn't entertained at all.

And at the end of the day, no matter how good or how shitty the show is, I'm sure there are always more productive ways to spend your time then watching wrestling and discussing it on a message board.

Wrestling is still wrestling and 1 bad show isn't enough to make me say I'm never watching again.


----------



## -Skullbone- (Sep 20, 2006)

Trouble Trouble said:


> Well, I for one don't usually bash the show but tonight was horrible. So, I can say this is the first show in a long time where I wasn't entertained at all.
> 
> And at the end of the day, no matter how good or how shitty the show is, I'm sure there are always more productive ways to spend your time then watching wrestling and discussing it on a message board.
> 
> Wrestling is still wrestling and 1 bad show isn't enough to make me say I'm never watching again.


Good stuff.


----------



## Das Wunderberlyn (Jan 18, 2011)

some of the worst tv i've seen lately..

a top title feud is littered with soap opera bullshit with a whore making out with everyone and a starmaking match (mitb) is being crowded by guys who don't actually need it.

when Heath Slater is the most interesting part of the show you know you have a fucking shit product going on.


----------



## HEELBellaArmy (May 8, 2012)

It's almost not watchable. Last night's RAW was one of the worst I've ever seen. If this is how RAW is at 2 hour's. 3 hour's will be dreadful.


----------



## MethHardy (Jul 6, 2012)

I would say it fits easily in the top 5 worst shows on tv.


----------



## Amber B (Dec 9, 2007)

It's not even funny bad anymore. I posted this in the Raw discussion thread but this sums up my feelings on WWE right now. God bless New Jack.

Skip to 8:32. WWE is Jasmine St Claire 





The only thing they care about is merchandise and since I don't think I'll be buying lime green Cena terry towel fabric wrist bands any time soon, I'm going on hiatus from the fuckery. I'll still go to the threads but watching it is nauseating.


----------



## Brye (Jan 28, 2006)

Amber B said:


> It's not even funny bad anymore. I posted this in the Raw discussion thread but this sums up my feelings on WWE right now. God bless New Jack.
> 
> Skip to 8:32. WWE is Jasmine St Claire
> 
> ...


Holy shit he just goes off. :lmao


----------



## Stroker Ace (Apr 8, 2011)

Amber B said:


> It's not even funny bad anymore. I posted this in the Raw discussion thread but this sums up my feelings on WWE right now. God bless New Jack.
> 
> Skip to 8:32. WWE is Jasmine St Claire
> 
> ...


So WWE is a cum burpin bitch? LMAO


----------



## kobra860 (Jan 29, 2005)

MethHardy said:


> I would say it fits easily in the top 5 worst shows on tv.


No way. There are a bunch of crappy reality shows out there that are far worse.


----------



## Brye (Jan 28, 2006)

If you're on a wrestling forum I don't think you can legitimately put it in the top five worst shows on TV. There is some terrible shit on TV.


----------



## Ali Dia (Jun 28, 2011)

RAW has been bad for months but lately it is unwatchable.


----------



## chucky101 (Jan 3, 2012)

*Since 2008 is This the Low Point?*

im curious i have been watching off and on since 08ish, is this the lowest raw has benn in the last 4 years

i know it gets bad after mania, but i don't think i can remember this, last year was pretty bad until the punk shoot, i think in 09 when vince did his money giveaway was pretty bad

but the last 2 months have been unwatchable, as bad as it been atleast it has its moments

but there hasn't been 1 great segment, match or promo, in the last 2 months, its not even dvr worthy right now

is this the lowest raw has been maybe ever? i can't remember a time as bad as its been, for a 3 month period where NOTHING has been good


----------



## The GOAT One (Sep 17, 2011)

*Re: Since 2008 is This the Low Point?*

Sadly, probably not, but very close. 

2009 was dreadful.


----------



## wesleyward24 (Feb 15, 2010)

Apparently no one actually watched Raw during the Attitude Era. This "Soap Opera Bull Shit" Was pretty much most of Raw. At least once every 3 months they had some wedding angle. 

I actually was digging the craziness that was the Aj/Punk/Bryan Proposal storyline. It reminded me of that very era. Fuck ECW even did stuff like this.


----------



## deadmau (Apr 8, 2012)

*Re: Since 2008 is This the Low Point?*

this is worse than RAW 2009.


----------



## Aeruhl (Jun 23, 2012)

*Re: Since 2008 is This the Low Point?*

No. Not for me anyway. I have to say the Nexus/Corre thing was about the most uncreative thing ever. They brought in some ten guys or so straight off NXT which was brand spankin' new in what appeared to me to be a uninspired rip off of the ECWCW invasion. More than half of them were green as grass and are now jobbing or back in development. The whole thing was a half-assed means of bolstering what (at the time) was an extremely limited talent roster.


----------



## cactus_jack22 (Jan 25, 2010)

the cm punk-dbryan stuff is honestly the only reason i watch, than i change the channel


----------



## Rustee (Jun 21, 2011)

I love how this thread resurfaces every week, and the rating gets progressively worse and worse. :lol


----------



## Brye (Jan 28, 2006)

*Re: Since 2008 is This the Low Point?*



deadmau said:


> this is worse than RAW 2009.


This specific one is but as a whole it's not, imo. And the Summer of '07 is still worse than '09, imo.


----------



## Romanista (Jul 13, 2011)

tied up to 2009 shows.


----------



## Heel (Feb 11, 2006)

WWE in general absolutely sucks. Even before I only had interest in 3 guys (Punk, Bryan and Ziggler), and none of those are being used even remotely well. Nothing appears to mean anything and it seems like the majority of programming now is lame comedy to appease the suits in the back.


----------



## zkorejo (Jul 2, 2010)

I honestly feel bad for anyone who bought the ticket to go see that Raw.


----------



## NathWFC (Apr 15, 2011)

Is this the lowest point since 2008? No, it's the lowest point ever. The product is an absolute disgrace.


----------



## Amuroray (Mar 13, 2012)

Absolutely horrible.

God awful


----------



## ShiftyLWO (Jan 30, 2011)

zkorejo said:


> I honestly feel bad for anyone who bought the ticket to go see that Raw.


well they did get to see smackdown for free.


----------



## Kelly Kelly fan (Mar 14, 2010)

Raw is still very bad and its gonna get worse when it goes to 3 hours


----------



## Nostalgia (Dec 20, 2011)

Unbearably bad. From my last post in this thread (which was probably a few weeks ago) it just seems to get worse and worse each week. More pointless segments, filler, hardly any direction, a fucking diva getting more exposure than the WWE Champion, challenger and title itself.


----------



## Honey Bucket (Jul 3, 2012)

Fuck sake. This Raw was bad, but at least I knew it was going to be bad. It's a filler show for a PPV, and and the 1000th episode. Nothing more.


----------



## FoxyRoxy (Feb 18, 2012)

Are they intentionally making their product bad or something? it was so horrible... Hornswoggle as GM? fpalm
Why after 2 years did they even bother bringing it up? what. the. actual. fuck is wrong with the writers? I swear they must have 5 year old Cena fans booking this crap.


----------



## Amber B (Dec 9, 2007)

iHoneyBea said:


> So WWE is a cum burpin bitch? LMAO


Absofuckinglutely.


----------



## 666_The_Game_666 (Nov 18, 2009)

Its at the bottom of the barrel. Its an abortion of a show now. This is a lot worse than Raw 09 was and 09 had some bad shit with them D grade celebrities they pulled.


----------



## HOJO (Feb 25, 2012)

WWE decided since they're gonna go weekly 3 hours like Nitro did, they might as well use one of Nitro's unused scripts. unk2 WWE = WCW


----------



## RatedR IWC Star (Mar 10, 2010)

im convinced there are writers backstage who are trying to sabotage the product right now. maybe its 2 get back at vince who knows but there is no way a group of paid writers comes up with shitty raw after shitty raw after shitty raw with last night being the shittiest of them all.

last night made me embarrassed to be a wrestling fan. what an awful disgrace of a go-home show to a ppv


----------



## Nabz™ (May 3, 2009)

I'm not even gonna lie, I totally forgot MITB was this sunday until in the show they said 'this sunday'. I was like wow WWE just is too garbage right now it's weird around mania and even the night after mania things were looking good and they just went downhill. AND something i find funny is that some of these Raws have been soo shitty yet the crowd seems to be in it, and when a show is actually not bad the crowd is just dead its weird cuz people are always complaining about the crowd being shit


----------



## Ignoramus (Jun 22, 2012)

That was my look struggling through the entire episode:


----------



## Patrick Bateman (Jul 23, 2011)

I like to watch raw.


----------



## SHIRLEY (Jun 9, 2009)

This is, comfortably, the worst phase in wrestling history. People forget that, when WWF was abysmal in 1993-ish, WCW had this roster:

http://www.solie.org/wcw93.txt


----------



## wkdsoul (Apr 2, 2012)

wkdsoul said:


> Jesus Christ this is getting shit, really shit, like Inception shit in a shit in a shit..



I'll quote my comment from last nights Raw thread...


----------



## dxbender (Jul 22, 2007)

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...sg=AFQjCNFXX8J95fqsrTeDD6jCihC0rMnlgg&cad=rja

Look at the comments for that video.....

Talking about how crowd reactions sucked and things like that....Guess what? That was 14+TV back in 2007 when former stars were returning as well. So anyone who talks about PG ruining anything...WWE sucked way worse back in 06-07(that 1 episode I posted in the link above, was one of best raw episodes though)


----------



## Ziggler Mark (Jan 1, 2012)

dxbender said:


> http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...sg=AFQjCNFXX8J95fqsrTeDD6jCihC0rMnlgg&cad=rja
> 
> Look at the comments for that video.....
> 
> Talking about how crowd reactions sucked and things like that....Guess what? That was 14+TV back in 2007 when former stars were returning as well. So anyone who talks about PG ruining anything...WWE sucked way worse back in 06-07(that 1 episode I posted in the link above, was one of best raw episodes though)


so one episode of raw makes an entire year shitty? You're joking, right? This entire year has been filled with absolute shit raws.


----------



## dxbender (Jul 22, 2007)

Ziggler Mark said:


> so one episode of raw makes an entire year shitty? You're joking, right? This entire year has been filled with absolute shit raws.


I never said 1 episode made whole year bad. I said that episode was the best episode of the year...

And 2006-2007 wasn't great. Prob the worst years since like 95 or something.

2012 wasn't filled with bad Raws. Raw January-April 2012 was actually fairly good. May-July 2012 sucked though.


----------



## The High King (May 31, 2012)

you know things are desperate when this thread is nmore interesting


----------



## joeisgonnakillyou (Jul 8, 2011)

Les Kellett Lariat said:


> This is, comfortably, the worst phase in wrestling history. People forget that, when WWF was abysmal in 1993-ish, WCW had this roster:
> 
> http://www.solie.org/wcw93.txt


TNA and DGUSA are doing great.


----------



## virus21 (Sep 22, 2009)

How bad is Raw? Well you know the backstory of Mystery Science Theater 3000, were the experiments(The bad movies) were created to break people's will and make them mindless sheep? I think Vince is doing that for real.


----------



## Chismo (Nov 7, 2009)

The greatest show on TV, IMO... More subtle than The Wire used to be...


----------



## BarrettBarrage (Jan 3, 2012)

RAW is pretty bad right now.

As much as I love Punk/Bryan and AJ, that starting promo was horrendous. I'm going to be honest, I am actually sick of AJ now, the focus on her is just ridiculous to this point ; they didn't even make any mentions to the title at all.

The Jerishow reunion/Kane and Cena tag match looked promising but in the end, Super Cena saves the day.

Again.

I'm going to start just watching the "good" parts on Youtube now as so many others seem to be doing the same.

Also fuck Hornswoggle.

with a fucking rake, yes I'm mad.


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## samizayn (Apr 25, 2011)

Oh it's unwatchable, definitely. But since it is unwatchable I can't fairly grade it as a whole. This monday was a 1/10.


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## paulborklaserheyma (Jun 12, 2012)

I guess 10 people here work for WWE.


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## Adam502 (Oct 21, 2011)

This is my first time watching Raw in months, I tuned back in for the first full episode in probably a year. And I seen this crap. Worse then it was a year ago.


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## Marv95 (Mar 9, 2011)

Ziggler Mark said:


> so one episode of raw makes an entire year shitty? You're joking, right? This entire year has been filled with absolute shit raws.


Dude 2007 was freaking atrocious, it wasn't just one shitty show. Looney Tunes, Rosie vs Trump, SuperCena, Vince's bastard son, etc. Raw was shit throughout the whole year as was SD. When a watered down ECW's your best show something's seriously wrong. It's teetering on that 2007 level right now but Rock and Brock are keeping it at bay, though the year's not over yet.


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## Choke2Death (Jul 26, 2011)

I really hope WWE reaches the bottom 2 area in ratings when they make it 3 hours. The shows are so bad I want the company to die so it can turn into a memory. No jokes. I don't think WWE should continue so it turns into something worse than crap, the sooner it dies, the better.


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## eireace (Aug 20, 2009)

BarrettBarrage said:


> RAW is pretty bad right now.
> 
> As much as I love Punk/Bryan and AJ, that starting promo was horrendous. I'm going to be honest, I am actually sick of AJ now, the focus on her is just ridiculous to this point ; they didn't even make any mentions to the title at all.
> 
> ...


agree with all this mate!


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## The Cynical Miracle (Dec 10, 2006)

In the last few months we have had to endure this..























































Good god...


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## Redwood (Jun 16, 2010)

2012 is a great year to be a WWE fan, is it not?


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## TromaDogg (Apr 23, 2011)

It's as bad as I can remember, and I've been watching Raw pretty much since it started.

Anyone who says it was even worse back in the mid 90's than it is now is either deluded or wasn't watching back then. Whether people care to admit it or not, Raw's been mostly bad since the re-introduction of the PG rating...say what you will, but the quality of Raw *noticeably* declined in 2008 for the majority of long term fans...I don't see that at as a coincidence. And now, with shit like Santino and his glove puppet as US Champion, and Super Cena (who's act hasn't changed for well over 6 years now) stripping a commentator to his boxers and covering him in BBQ sauce...the shows are no better than when WCW nearly put them out of business.

I honestly think that Stephanie McMahon is to blame for a lot of the current state that the product's in. No disrespect to her but she's the Executive Vice President of Creative and the show's become very child orientated in line with her having kids. She's probably not somebody Vince will argue too much with either. She needs to go and be replaced with somebody a bit more old school who understands what the fans will react to better.


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## Pera (Aug 12, 2011)

It's pretty fucking terrible. How anyone can sit through that is beyond me. All aboard the TNA express!


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## JohnnyC55 (Jul 10, 2012)

*Man some of those guest hosts in 2009 were horrible*

*I remember the one guy called Kofi Kingston Kenny Kingston or something*


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## joeisgonnakillyou (Jul 8, 2011)




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## NathWFC (Apr 15, 2011)

No ambition, no imagination, no creativity, no respect (for the fans or the industry), no clue - that sums up the disgrace that is the WWE perfectly. All Vince and his cronies give a fuck about is money, the cunts.

Also how the fuck have 3 more people voted for "it's as good as it's ever been" since a couple of weeks ago? Either we've got some really, really shit comedians on here or the WWE is watching us, in which case - fuck you.


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## AA world champ (Jul 9, 2012)

joeisgonnakillyou said:


>


Awesome great laugh.Seen the one for Storm's ex lackey that was funny as well.


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## joeisgonnakillyou (Jul 8, 2011)

AA world champ said:


> Awesome great laugh.Seen the one for Storm's ex lackey that was funny as well.


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## AA world champ (Jul 9, 2012)

joeisgonnakillyou said:


>


This is not funny,this is sad I miss big Johnny he was awesome.


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## Jerichaholic4life (Jun 29, 2008)

It really is terrible. The WWE has gone downhill since they decided to revitalise super Cena once again. 

We just come off a great Wrestlemania and Lesnar returns, things were looking good, that's until the WWE decide to have Cena go over and completely ignore the character progression over the last 3 months. Ever since then the WWE has just been atrocious.


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## peowulf (Nov 26, 2006)

wesleyward24 said:


> Apparently no one actually watched Raw during the Attitude Era. This "Soap Opera Bull Shit" Was pretty much most of Raw. At least once every 3 months they had some wedding angle.
> 
> I actually was digging the craziness that was the Aj/Punk/Bryan Proposal storyline. It reminded me of that very era. Fuck ECW even did stuff like this.


Difference is they were making it a lot better than now.


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## Vin Ghostal (Jul 4, 2009)

I'm not usually prone to hyperbole, but this was absolutely the worst episode of Raw I've ever seen. Ever.

WWE should be ashamed of themselves. Yes, they're still making money, but to tread water like this with both a PPV and the 1000th episode on the horizon, and they wonder why their ratings are dropping like a brick?


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## joeisgonnakillyou (Jul 8, 2011)

AA world champ said:


> This is not funny,this is sad I miss big Johnny he was awesome.


:lmao the funkhouser is a inverted draw, still had his good moments.


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## Matt_Yoda (Jun 19, 2011)

WWE has got to love being positioned as a monopolistic entity. No matter how crappy some episode of RAW can be, doesn't matter in the slightest as they'll retain their core audience while getting that advertisement money. I can only the imagine the absolute hilarity sitting in on a creative meeting with Vince and Co. week to week.


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