# Jericho says if you didn't like Stadium Stampede you have no soul. Cornette responds!



## MontyCora (Aug 31, 2016)

I KNEW you were a Cornette guy. You stick too closely to his talking points not to be.

EDIT: and no, people did not BELIEVE Jericho was shoving Corny's face into a cake because Cornette was an asshole, the cat was out of the bag by 1994, they knew he was getting cake in his face because it was in the script.

This desperate crusade to make wrestling real looks SO goofy because the UFC is right there. Do people really believe wrestling will boom if it's more serious and more plausible sports like presentation? Real actual wrestling exists today in guys like Khabib. Cause my personal favorites NXT and NJPW are being butt fucked by the competition, and those are all being butt fucked by UFC.

People aren't going to watch fake wrestling that pretends very hard like it's real wrestling when real combat sports exist and have never been more popular.


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## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

MontyCora said:


> I KNEW you were a Cornette guy. You stick too closely to his talking points not to be.


Yeah, I've admitted it a heap of times on here. I do disagree with him on a fair bit though so I'm not a dick rider.


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## King Kong Brody (Jan 21, 2018)

It started off alright, I liked the entrance and the starting charge at each other, and if there'd been one silly moment for a laugh it'd have been fine but there was A) way too many silly moments and B) it dragged on waaaay to long. The swimming pool, stop for drinks at the bar, bell over the one guys head who pulled the goofiest facial expressions I've seen in wrestling, it was too much the geek show for the main event with a bunch of your biggest names in it.


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## Oracle (Nov 9, 2011)

Its gone what Cornette knew as pro wrestling is finished and dead and he cant seem to let it go. I like the man but theres a saying the times move with you or you get left behind and Cornette has been left behind likes hes still living in 1970


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## Oracle (Nov 9, 2011)

If he cant accept this is what pro wrestling is these days then he should just remember the good times and move on and stop trying to flog a dead horse.


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## unooeconomicus (May 29, 2020)

I'm not going to vote, because you do not provide an option for a middle ground. I see this poll as either 1/10 or 10/10, and that's stupid and divisive.

Which is also represented by the points Jericho and Cornette are trying to make. They are arguing past each other. Jericho obviously doesn't care nearly as much about kayfabe as Cornette does. Both arguments are also stupid and devisive.

Like what you like, don't be a dick.


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## BuckshotLarry (May 29, 2020)

Newsflash Jim: It is fake.

I've voted for Jericho because Cornette is (albeit an entertaining one) an irrelevant dementia patient shouting at clouds. Really I'd like to vote on a less long-winded way of stating "this shouldn't belong in 2020 but during a pandemic when big stories are on hold this definitely had a purpose to offer fun and entertainment."


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## CM Buck (Sep 2, 2012)

The comedy was hit and miss. The bell was dumb. The hundred yards suplexes was dumb. The nfl calls thing didn't land cause I'm Australian. The pool was eh. I loved the bar thing. It actually made sense in the payoff. Kenny abd hangman got hydrated and took a break to rest while everyone was killing themselves and omega used it to finish off Sammy. Like when you get sprayed with water in between boxing rounds.

However, never do it again. I understand that the virus forced them to change plans but stable wars specifically need to be war games or some form of contained environment 

So I'm middle


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## MontyCora (Aug 31, 2016)

Oracle said:


> Its gone what Cornette knew as pro wrestling is finished and dead and he cant seem to let it go. I like the man but theres a saying the times move with you or you get left behind and Cornette has been left behind likes hes still living in 1970


It's sports entertainment now. The entire AEW roster was brought up loving the Attitude Era, which was NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOT old school wrestling. It was NOT Jim Cornette's flavour that people are craving. It was Jerry Springer crash television. 

People like Vince Russo and McMahon, and yes Corny himself killed and buried kayfabe. Pro wrestling is irish whips which make zero physical sense, and Ric Flair chops with the WOO's and lucha guys and gimmick characters like Cassidy and old school heels like MJF. 

The idea that if pro rasslin goes back to trying as hard as possible to be plausible it will inherently be a lot better and draw a lot more is a flawed argument.

1) The closest products to that, no supernatural stuff, no silly gimmicky extremes, NJPW and NXT, are the lowest draws. 
2) MMA fans and boxing fans and this mythical broader general audience you guys so desperately want to return to wrestling aren't going to. They're going to see what you and Jim Cornette thinks of as great logical sound solid respectable product and they're going to laugh in your face over how fake and cringy and stupid it is, and call you a ****** and leave.

Those people who made wrestling such a big thing didn't give a fuck about how plausible the clearly phony wrestling was with Kane and Undertaker wandering around, they didn't get turned off by the cringy shit. The attitude era had Val Venis and old women flashing the audience and tasteless stupid bullshit. Those people made wrestling a big thing because of Austin, and Rock, and big memorable characters they really enjoyed watching every week almost IN SPITE of the stupid undercard crap.

And you know what? AEW for all of it's faults and stumblings of which there have been many is delivering that for me. I like Chris Jericho's moronic arrogant villain character. I like Sammy the loony tunes villain who gets smushed every week. I like Jon Moxley swaggering around like a believable badass and I like Hangman Adam Page winning over the crowd with his attitude and alcholism. 

It's not PERFECT, but it's reminding me of what I liked about the Attitude Era when I was a kid. Most importantly it's doing lots of shit WWE is doing badly right now. The promos are great instead of feeling scripted and cringe. The characters are natural instead of written and forced and I'm slowly getting invested in them. And the comedy instead of being the literal worst thing I've ever seen, is sometimes pretty amusing like Pac vs Cassidy.

AEW is not trying to be Jim Cornette's long dead vision of wrestling. Like I said, if you want reality watch MMA. They're trying to reinvigorate and improve upon the Sports Entertainment formula. For better or worse, that's what the company is.

You want reality? Force yourself to learn to get into MMA or boxing. I'll help you if you want. Watch NXT and NJPW. They both need your support. 

But for the love of GOD, please stop asking AEW to become what you want it to be, when it's clear what THEY want it to be isn't that. Especially when you have options. It's goofy.


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## Swan-San (May 25, 2019)

Jim for sure, his opinions basically mirror mine.

There's obviously a place for comedy, I loved Kurt angles dorkiness, the rock vs hurricane etc

But AEW don't do it well, they're like what Brendan Schaub is to stand up comedy but in wrestling. The only comedy part I liked in the match was hangman fighting in the bar, the rest was stupidity, the worst being hardy being X-Men, and the buck doing 100 suplexes.

The elite, jericho and hardy revel in comedy so it's pretty much a wrap. There's just too much comedy, there shouldn't be more comedy than seriousness, it shouldn't even be close. They just wanna be comedians it looks like.


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## Erik. (Mar 17, 2014)

It was a cinematic sequence that was aimed to entertain people during a pandemic - the fact people are taking it seriously just blow my mind. I can understand people liking it and I can understand people not liking it. But that's cinematic matches in general. The Boneyard match was alot more serious and that still got people saying it was the worst thing they'd ever seen etc.

I was entertained by some aspects of it and there were some parts I didn't enjoy. But fair play to the 10 of them for clearly having fun during a time of darkness and entertaining alot of other people.


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## Erik. (Mar 17, 2014)

MontyCora said:


> It's sports entertainment now. The entire AEW roster was brought up loving the Attitude Era, which was NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOT old school wrestling. It was NOT Jim Cornette's flavour that people are craving. It was Jerry Springer crash television.
> 
> People like Vince Russo and McMahon, and yes Corny himself killed and buried kayfabe. Pro wrestling is irish whips which make zero physical sense, and Ric Flair chops with the WOO's and lucha guys and gimmick characters like Cassidy and old school heels like MJF.
> 
> ...


People wanted the American NJPW and they got the American DDT.

And I agree with everything you say. 

People just seem to watch AEW to bash it because it isn't their vision of what they want wrestling to be. 

Yet nothing in wrestling seems to be what people want it to be and if there is. Then why not just watch that and save yourself the stress of moaning about it?


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## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

MontyCora said:


> People like Vince Russo and McMahon, and yes Corny himself killed and buried kayfabe. Pro wrestling is irish whips which make zero physical sense, and Ric Flair chops with the WOO's and lucha guys and gimmick characters like Cassidy and old school heels like MJF.
> 
> The idea that if pro rasslin goes back to trying as hard as possible to be plausible it will inherently be a lot better and draw a lot more is a flawed argument.
> 
> ...


I will only speak for myself and not assume what Cornette or anyone else thinks but for me I view wrestling as a movie. You're 100% right in that the business of wrestling has been totally exposed and everyone knows it's fake but you watch films going in knowing they're fake and that is still a billion dollar industry. Grown men still cry during films and have other emotions come out whether that be anger, hatred, disgust, love, happiness, sadness etc. Women not only get emotional over films but you have women fall in love with the characters that play out on TV as well. Who could forget every teenage girl in the world wanting Edward from Twilight to bang them a decade ago?

Same with magic, everyone knows magic is fake but they are willing to suspend their disbelief and to the magicians credit many of them don't expose their secrets so the act is unique and exciting.

Back in the 70's and 80's some people knew wrestling was a work but it was treated seriously like most films are. It was treated like magic where the secrets were hidden and it was so easy to suspend your disbelief. I don't think most people including myself want a completely serious show where irish whips and chops are banned but we just want a product that is taken seriously and doesn't have the constant "This is fake" winks to the camera. Very few movies do this, very few magicians do this, very few entertainers in general do this but somehow it's accepted in wrestling. I think that's what most people are fighting for.

In regards to NJPW and NXT being low draws I'm not so sure I'd agree with that. NJPW does pretty strong business drawing 1500-2000 people on average to their road shows (Tickets usually 30-40 dollars minimum) with the big shows drawing five figures quite often. The serious companies in Japan is how I feel wrestling as an in ring product should be done but with the stories that American wrestling is known for. If we could somehow have this product consisting of the in ring seriousness of Japan with the strong striking, realistic moves, rookies/indy guys losing to the stars in a short amount of time and stars being treated like stars mixed in with the great American wrestling stories we could genuinely have the best product in the world.

I'm not so sure I agree with your second point, you might be right but to me if we saw stiff wrestling on TV every week with guys doing really athletic shit and actually looking like athletes it could be watched weekly and enjoyed by a larger audience.


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## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

I’ve voted for ‘Jericho is right’ - but your poll is too black and white

the stadium stampede is a valid representation of wrestling

as was the MJF v JB match

as is Lucha Underground with their ‘super beings’

as is Joey’s penis flipping

as is Kurt Angle v Chris Benoit in a technical masterpiece

———

it is theatre, therefore it can be anything.

———

ps> I do think Stadium Stampede and car crash Meme-wrestling has a MUCH MUUUCH bigger chance to get casuals watching again than serious ‘this is a real fight’ wrestling

BUT - you get them in with the silly, and hook them on the serious

———
edit> The REAL enemy of wrestling is ‘sameness’ - everything being presented the same. The wrestlers all having the same tough guy persona. All wrestling in black trunks or pants. All have similar promos that is hand scripted. And when there is a silly spot like it being a face in a cake, then all the silly spots follow a very similar vein

Even in the 60s, 70s, 80s they understood you needed variety of characters - for every Arn Anderson, there was a honky tonk man or gorgeous george or goldust

That is why it shocks me when people get their panties in a twist on AEWs ‘Buffet style’ - that is TRUE wrestling IMO, something that tries to cater to all audiences by having different styles in each segment


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## MontyCora (Aug 31, 2016)

Chip Chipperson said:


> I'm not so sure I agree with your second point, you might be right but to me if we saw stiff wrestling on TV every week with guys doing really athletic shit and actually looking like athletes it could be watched weekly and enjoyed by a larger audience.


I mean that's what NXT is. They're pretty snug. Can't get a lot snugger before you're just potatoing people and hurting each other which I KNOW Cornette is not a fan of.


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## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

MontyCora said:


> I mean that's what NXT is. They're pretty snug. Can't get a lot snugger before you're just potatoing people and hurting each other which I KNOW Cornette is not a fan of.


Yeah, I've had a couple of people on here suggest maybe I watch NXT. To my knowledge they don't really do impressive stories though.


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## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

Chip Chipperson said:


> I will only speak for myself and not assume what Cornette or anyone else thinks *but for me I view wrestling as a movie.*


I think there is the real disconnect. A movie is supposed to have the similar look, feel and a cohesive story beginning, middle and end.

While AEW (and I would argue wrestling in general) is closer to SNL, the Circus or a variety show - segmented

you start with the Lion tamers, in the middle the clowns come out, and you end with the Magician escaping his water grave - there is no cohesion other than ‘we’re at the circus!’

and to be fair - I don’t think Wrestling has ever been presented as a movie, except modern WWE with its ‘sameness’ in each segment which you can logically follow on the the next one and the next one

- BUT! each segment going onto the following week can be seen as a movie. If the ‘feel‘ of a program - let’s say Hangman v Pac - is super serious every week and suddenly it is cake in the face time and they’re all yee-hawing - that is a legit gripe (which has not happened in AEW yet - IE> drastically changing the ‘feel of a program on whimsy overnight)


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## DaSlacker (Feb 9, 2020)

To play devil's advocate

1) There is no such thing as a soul

2) Jim is slightly hypocritical to be so hard on AEW's exposing the business when he takes money for podcasts/documentaries.

3) Apart from Broken Matt, wrestling in 2020 is ripping of wrestling in 2000. They're ripping off of Vince Russo.


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## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

DaSlacker said:


> Apart from Broken Matt, wrestling in 2020 is ripping of wrestling in 2000. They're ripping off of Vince Russo.


I massively agree with this one yet the guy is somehow hated by all. Vince Russo would be all for Tyson and Jericho going at it in 2020 and Marko Stunt getting the better of guys much bigger than him. He is also the originator of the "It's fake bro, get over it" argument.


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## Optikk is All Elite (Sep 5, 2007)

The PPV got some eyes back on AEW. Their post PPV show was pretty good ratings wise. So who are we to say that it was a good idea or not? Seems so far like it was good for business, but I reckon these sorts of things have a long term impact.


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## Optikk is All Elite (Sep 5, 2007)

Chip Chipperson said:


> I'm not so sure I agree with your second point, you might be right but to me if we saw stiff wrestling on TV every week with guys doing really athletic shit and actually looking like athletes it could be watched weekly and enjoyed by a larger audience.


i doubt this very much, because wrestling is the butt of jokes in culture. I would argue that anyone who thinks athleticism will get more people watching is out of touch. MMA has taken over that side of wrestling. I’m not going to watch wrestling when it’s predetermined. That’s why NXT is only attracting boomers and no zoomers.


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## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

optikk sucks said:


> i doubt this very much, because wrestling is the butt of jokes in culture. I would argue that anyone who thinks athleticism will get more people watching is out of touch. MMA has taken over that side of wrestling. I’m not going to watch wrestling when it’s predetermined. That’s why NXT is only attracting boomers and no zoomers.


Wrestling has something MMA can't really offer though which is the stories.


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## Optikk is All Elite (Sep 5, 2007)

Chip Chipperson said:


> Wrestling has something MMA can't really offer though which is the stories.


UFC is story driven. Their stories and feuds are actually real.


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## Mutant God (Sep 9, 2015)

I voted Jericho because it does have a place but I also think Jim has a point so I'm in the middle


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## Joe Gill (Jun 29, 2019)

Loved the idea of a stadium stampede match... and loved most of the spots they did.. esecially in the bar.... but it would have been much better if it wasnt so heavily edited. They had that brawl a few weeks ago on Dynamite whch was very similar... but it wasnt heavily edited and it turned out great. I agree with Cornette on this one... do all the fun creative stuff... but at least try to make it look real.


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## Klitschko (May 24, 2020)

There was nothing wrong with the match in my opinion. Sure its not everyone's cup of tea, but you know what. You wanted classic wrestling, you had MJF vs Jungle Boy, if you wanted brawling and street fights and ladder matches. You got that as well. You wanted stadium stampede, well you got that too. Double or nothing had a little bit of everything for everyone. Thats what I loved about the show.


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## IamMark (Jan 7, 2014)

That guy who tweeted that to Jim must be trying to dig sh*t up on MJF so he can hate him too. He probably won't but he's trying for sure.


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## Verne Watts (Apr 30, 2020)

"The people who liked wrestling are the people who didn't like that. The only people who liked that, are the people who like what they've turned wrestling into. They weren't old enough to see it done properly or just don't give a shit. But for people who have liked wrestling, this is the exact thing that has driven them away from liking fucking wrestling".

Cornette succinctly sums things up.


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## Prosper (Mar 25, 2015)

Chip Chipperson said:


> Wrestling has something MMA can't really offer though which is the stories.


Almost every UFC PPV main event is story-driven though. They have video packages, hype videos, and "promos" too. Look at McGregor vs Khabib. 

I see what you're trying to say but I don't really know how much pre-determined stories can get over with the general public at this point. People see wrestling as a joke for the most part, which is a shame because wrestling has offered some great stuff over the years in all promotions. The bad has often outweighed the good though.


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## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

LifeInCattleClass said:


> I think there is the real disconnect. A movie is supposed to have the similar look, feel and a cohesive story beginning, middle and end.
> 
> While AEW (and I would argue wrestling in general) is closer to SNL, the Circus or a variety show - segmented
> 
> ...


Inner Circle vs Elite says hello. Kenny Omega teaming with Nakazawa says hello. Matt Hardy says hello.


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## Schwartzxz (Jul 9, 2017)

I was getting annoyed with Jericho for years but recently and especially after this I dont even care anymore about him or what he does anymore. Sports Entertainment fits AEW more than WWE at this point. goofballs doing gymnastics and having fun and if you are not entertained by it you dont have a soul. fuck all of you.


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## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

Schwartzxz said:


> I was getting annoyed with Jericho for years but recently and especially after this I dont even care anymore about him or what he does anymore. Sports Entertainment fits AEW more than WWE at this point. goofballs doing gymnastics and having fun and if you are not entertained by it you dont have a soul. fuck all of you.


K... bye


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## Dizzie (Jun 22, 2019)

Cant believe fans follow cornette, a guy that advocates one wrestler legit hurting another in the ring that he doesnt like, talk about scum of the earth.


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## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

So.... the poll has kinda spoken, right?

or is there a 10% variance in the rating or non-domestic numbers we’re waiting for?


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## RapShepard (Jun 20, 2014)

I liked the match a lot. I think it's a top 5 cinematic match. But the "if you don't like X, then you don't like this genre" response is always fairly silly.


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## ObsoleteMule (Sep 4, 2016)

Love to hear Cornette’s commentary in things because he’s entertaining and I loved the guy on commentary in MLW and Powerr but he’s obviously out of touch...

The stadium stampede was a bug mess of fun. I loved every single second of that to the point where I’ve decided to give AEW another look. Wrestling is best when it’s fun. Ofcourse that doesnt mean the whole card needs to be that way but matches like that are certainly welcomed


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## One Shed (Jan 7, 2014)

Imagine if Vince said "Like my good shit or you have no soul!"

Honestly a pretty bad statement from Jericho. There was plenty of good stuff in that match but plenty of brain numbing dumb too. Almost nothing is 100% great. I hate the black and white thinking that seems to be taking over more and more of current thinking not just in wrestling but in all aspects of life.


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## zkorejo (Jul 2, 2010)

So sick of Cornette. I get it.. he is stuck in the 80s and wants everything like it was 40 years ago... Its not going to happen no matter how much you hate on the modern wrestling. If he actually hated the new stuff that much, he would just only watch his style of wrestling. Instead he acts like an entitled clown who hates on everything that is not marketed at him. 

I understand he makes money off of his rants from his fans but I dont think his opinions should be discussed. Jericho shouldn't have mentioned him IMO.


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## Blaze2k2 (Dec 3, 2019)

MontyCora said:


> It's sports entertainment now. The entire AEW roster was brought up loving the Attitude Era, which was NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOT old school wrestling. It was NOT Jim Cornette's flavour that people are craving. It was Jerry Springer crash television.
> 
> People like Vince Russo and McMahon, and yes Corny himself killed and buried kayfabe. Pro wrestling is irish whips which make zero physical sense, and Ric Flair chops with the WOO's and lucha guys and gimmick characters like Cassidy and old school heels like MJF.
> 
> ...


I agree 1000% with everything you said.


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## Chan Hung (Dec 28, 2011)

Oh shit, Cornette vs Jericho ranting off. This is going to be good. (Grabs a big bucket of KFC and Popcorn)


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## Bubbly (Oct 10, 2019)

I'm with Cornette here on this particular scene. I really want my suspension of disbelief to be there when watching but once it leaves, I lose interest.


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## CMPunkRock316 (Jan 17, 2016)

Jericho is right mostly. Stampede was outstanding entertainment. It was far better that any of WWE's attempts although I didn't watch NXT's thing with Ciampa/Gargano 2,459,106. Boneyard was OK and Fun House was goofy but MITB was shit. I decided after that I don't want to see anymore of that kind of shit it WWE because it is not good.

AEW has a variety it is not like everyone was trained the same way and are scripted and dull. Look at that PPV you had:

* A GREAT wrestling match with two early 20's in Jungle Boy and MJF

* A very strong and brutal World Title match between Mox and Lee

* A physical streetfight for the women's title

* Cody/Archer not a great match but strong storytelling. Cody losing made no sense as he has lost at PPV's lately and had Archer destroy his brother and friend in front of him and then the snake attack on his wife. 

* Main Event was pure spectacle

What was Attitude Era here?


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## Pippen94 (Jan 10, 2020)

Bubbly said:


> I'm with Cornette here on this particular scene. I really want my suspension of disbelief to be there when watching but once it leaves, I lose interest.


How about Ric Flair working same spots in every match?


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## Schwartzxz (Jul 9, 2017)

seems like half of the people here or more dont even understand why Corny mostly dislikes AEW or wrestling in general. also all of you that wanna claim how Corny hates modern wrestling and doesnt like anything, watch his review of Riddle vs Thatcher from NXT. he likes pro wrestling when its good and done right. 15-20 years ago we were arguing with people who are not fans of wrestling because they were bashing it and calling it stupid and silly. not understanding what it is. now those god damn people are wrestlers and hardcore fans who take nothing seriously and everything is about the moves and silly stupid shit.


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## DaSlacker (Feb 9, 2020)

Pippen94 said:


> How about Ric Flair working same spots in every match?


That's true. Yet back then it wasn't often you'd see Flair work a long match on television prior to 1995 and he was a shadow of himself by that point anyway. At his 1980's peak he'd squash jobbers most of the time and was a very crisp performer with it. House shows would be different, but watching live or on television feel very different. Worth pointing out he was a better performer and lot less predictable when working as a baby face, which he was in 1983 - 1985, 1989-1990 and 1993-1994.


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## La Parka (Oct 28, 2008)

Pippen94 said:


> How about Ric Flair working same spots in every match?


Theres a big difference between working the same spot every match and changing clothes underwater during a match.


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## MEMS (Jun 18, 2013)

They’re both wrong. It was stupid and pointless but probably entertaining for a certain demographic. And that’s all it comes down to. I don’t enjoy idiotic stuff like that but if there are people that do then it has its place.


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## Pippen94 (Jan 10, 2020)

La Parka said:


> Theres a big difference between working the same spot every match and changing clothes underwater during a match.


Not really - have to suspend disbelief for both


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## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

Schwartzxz said:


> seems like half of the people here or more dont even understand why Corny mostly dislikes AEW or wrestling in general. also all of you that wanna claim how Corny hates modern wrestling and doesnt like anything, watch his review of Riddle vs Thatcher from NXT. he likes pro wrestling when its good and done right. 15-20 years ago we were arguing with people who are not fans of wrestling because they were bashing it and calling it stupid and silly. not understanding what it is. now those god damn people are wrestlers and hardcore fans who take nothing seriously and everything is about the moves and silly stupid shit.


didn’t you say fuck all of us like a page ago?

now you want to discuss shit, plllllease


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## Bubbly (Oct 10, 2019)

Pippen94 said:


> How about Ric Flair working same spots in every match?





Pippen94 said:


> Not really - have to suspend disbelief for both


Nah one of those is 100x worse than the other. Obviously belief has to be suspended for everything that happens in wrestling but ultimately there are levels to it. A better comparison would be something like Undertaker's magical powers, which I wasn't that fond of, but he made it work by comparison to this which was more like a group of friends clowning around at the park creating a comedy sketch.

I probably would have disliked it less if it wasn't involving main event talent.


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## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

Pippen94 said:


> Not really - have to suspend disbelief for both


So Flair doing the same spots is easily explainable. He is a master of a certain amount of moves and can utilise them against most guys. Easy to explain.

Changing clothes in the pool? Not so much.


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## Pippen94 (Jan 10, 2020)

Chip Chipperson said:


> So Flair doing the same spots is easily explainable. He is a master of a certain amount of moves and can utilise them against most guys. Easy to explain.
> 
> Changing clothes in the pool? Not so much.


The flair flop? C'mon maybe fans are desensitized but a lot of fake looking stuff in most matches


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## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

Pippen94 said:


> The flair flop? C'mon maybe fans are desensitized but a lot of fake looking stuff in most matches


Someone getting beat up so bad that they fall down in exhaustion is unrealistic in a wrestling match?


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## Rozzop (Aug 26, 2019)

Chip Chipperson said:


> Someone getting beat up so bad that they fall down in exhaustion is unrealistic in a wrestling match?


Yes. 

I'm with you on a lot of what you say. Older stuff is better than modern stuff which is nearly unwatchable. 

But not everything is black and white/yes or no

Take off the rose tinted glasses. The Flair flop is one of the phoniest spots in all of pro wrestling.


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## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

Chip Chipperson said:


> Someone getting beat up so bad that they fall down in exhaustion is unrealistic in a wrestling match?


I love the Flair Flop, but don’t act like it is any different than Ortiz’s “get thrown out of the ring and flop to the floor” spot that looks goofy as hell.

Only difference is he was Ric Flair, and everyone CHOSE to ignore the stupidity of the spot.


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## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

I just searched the Flair flop on YouTube and I will admit I was wrong. Flair is a favourite and maybe I was blinded by that but on YouTube I saw Hogan big boot him, he fell to the apron, rolled out and then Flair flopped on the floor. Fucking stupid.

His work in the 80's though he'd usually Flair flop after receiving a ton of blows to the head and to me him Flair flopping there is totally fine. It's dependent on context but yeah, I was wrong about the modern Flair flop.


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## Marbar (Dec 20, 2019)

I get both sides of the argument. 
Everyone knows wrestling is bullshit but at least try to make the bullshit plausible. Wrestling has become is one big spotfest. Finishers mean absolutely nothing anymore. I loved the old school wrestling and i love the attitude era sports entertainment. I think Cornette's main bitch is a valid point. Wrestling storylines today or lack thereof are complete bullshit. The perfect example is the Marco Stunt garbage we deal with weekly. He gets his ass handed to him by Archer and is thrown into the crowd. The next week he sells no injuries and is back in the middle of it again. Read Cornette's take on a storyline for Fatu if he would come into AEW. It's a believable storyline that people could embrace. There's a lot of knowledge there behind his tirades. I don't agree with everything he says and personally can't stand Nyla Rose but everything he said about what AEW has done with her is true.


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## MontyCora (Aug 31, 2016)

Chip Chipperson said:


> Wrestling has something MMA can't really offer though which is the stories.


This is objectively exactly literally wrong. UFC has better stories than wrestling has arguably ever had. They even have pre fight promos to get people invested in the stories of their fighters.

This is the Mazvidal vs Askerin pre match promo, setting up the players and the story. Askerin got a lucky bullshit fluke win, and instead of giving the rematch to the guy who WAS beating the shit out of him until the fluke, he refuses. Instant heel heat.






You watch that, then this is the actual fight.






This is a story. This is an arc. This is one of the most satisfying things I've ever seen in my entire fucking life. Does Jim Cornette think realistic serious worked wrestling is EVER going to come close to this? Get the fuck out of here.


----------



## Klitschko (May 24, 2020)

Great post MontyCora. In my opinion pro wrestling started dying with the rise of MMA. Its real and a serious sport, and the feuds are not fake. They are real. Pro wrestling really can't compete with that. So in my opinion they should embrace the fun athletic side of pro wrestling. People everywhere online hate Young bucks matches, but usually they are some of the most entertaining matches on the card in my opinion.


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

Chip Chipperson said:


> I just searched the Flair flop on YouTube and I will admit I was wrong. Flair is a favourite and maybe I was blinded by that but on YouTube I saw Hogan big boot him, he fell to the apron, rolled out and then Flair flopped on the floor. Fucking stupid.
> 
> His work in the 80's though he'd usually Flair flop after receiving a ton of blows to the head and to me him Flair flopping there is totally fine. It's dependent on context but yeah, I was wrong about the modern Flair flop.


No, not really. Flair always did the over the top selling of the beatdown with that, “I’m ok. I’m ok. I’m ok. I’m not ok.” flop to the mat. It isn’t something he patented late in his career. It was always a part of him.


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

And I’m not disagreeing with you on Cornette’s larger points or saying Jericho is 100% right or any of that.

Just saying, Ric Flair did a LOT of stupid shit that _RIC FLAIR_ can get away with, because he’s...the NAAAAAATURE BOY!


----------



## The_It_Factor (Aug 14, 2012)

People get too worked up about Cornette. He doesn’t like wrestling anymore, but it’s how he makes his money. It’s how he’s made a living his entire life, so what do people really expect him to do?

I tend to agree with a lot of the things he says, which is weird because I also tend to agree with things Russo says. The one thing they both have in common in 2020 is that they realize that wrestling sucks.


----------



## The_It_Factor (Aug 14, 2012)

bdon said:


> And I’m not disagreeing with you on Cornette’s larger points or saying Jericho is 100% right or any of that.
> 
> Just saying, Ric Flair did a LOT of stupid shit that _RIC FLAIR_ can get away with, because he’s...the NAAAAAATURE BOY!


You’re absolutely right. I started watching in the early 90’s, which was apparently past Flair’s prime. I’ve never watched his older stuff, but I personally found him to be awful from the point I started watching onward. Stripping down in the middle of the ring and dropping elbows on the mat in the middle of the ring for no reason was almost as awful as the flair flop.


----------



## DaSlacker (Feb 9, 2020)

Klitschko said:


> Great post MontyCora. In my opinion pro wrestling started dying with the rise of MMA. Its real and a serious sport, and the feuds are not fake. They are real. Pro wrestling really can't compete with that. So in my opinion they should embrace the fun athletic side of pro wrestling. People everywhere online hate Young bucks matches, but usually they are some of the most entertaining matches on the card in my opinion.


In fairness wrestling is primed to not compete with it but offer something complimentary. MMA is bound by the limitations of a real fight and its rules. Only a fan of MMA would notice the subtle differences - a none fan just sees two people pummeling each other gory, with a lot of dull ground grappling. Pro wrestling has an open book concerning how they take viewers on a journey. The way I see it is it's a lot more difficult to write a compelling drama than it is to add self aware comedy or slapstick or supernatural elements.


----------



## PhenomenalOne11 (Oct 2, 2016)

It was a fine match, the whole Matt Hardy drowning segment was pretty distasteful though considering what happened a few days prior.


----------



## kingfrass44 (Sep 19, 2019)

Klitschko said:


> Great post MontyCora. In my opinion pro wrestling started dying with the rise of MMA. Its real and a serious sport, and the feuds are not fake. They are real. Pro wrestling really can't compete with that. So in my opinion they should embrace the fun athletic side of pro wrestling. People everywhere online hate Young bucks matches, but usually they are some of the most entertaining matches on the card in my opinion.


You are wrong


----------



## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

MontyCora said:


> This is objectively exactly literally wrong. UFC has better stories than wrestling has arguably ever had. They even have pre fight promos to get people invested in the stories of their fighters.
> 
> This is the Mazvidal vs Askerin pre match promo, setting up the players and the story. Askerin got a lucky bullshit fluke win, and instead of giving the rematch to the guy who WAS beating the shit out of him until the fluke, he refuses. Instant heel heat.
> 
> ...


Enjoyed watching that.



bdon said:


> No, not really. Flair always did the over the top selling of the beatdown with that, “I’m ok. I’m ok. I’m ok. I’m not ok.” flop to the mat. It isn’t something he patented late in his career. It was always a part of him.


Man takes 6 chops to the chest and then walks a little and falls. I've seen people think they're fine and then the legs go wobbly that's what I view Flair's flop as. Admittedly yes he's done it comedically a heap of times but he's also done it realistic a heap of times.



kingfrass44 said:


> You are wrong


I often agree with you but would love to see you make an argument every now and then rather than just saying people are wrong


----------



## Mister Sinister (Aug 7, 2013)

If you don't like it, it doesn't ruin the brand in my opinion. We are all aware that this is pro wrestling-- not MMA. If I were running creative, I wouldn't do these matches, but I'm not tuning out because of a few segments that aren't what I would do.

I would have broken down the proposed gags from the match and spread them out over weeks of shows (Page chasing Sammy on a f'n horse on a football field is funny).

Cornette is a purist. He understands wrestling, but he is also a terminal asshole. His perfect wrestling show would lack the razzle dazzle that makes a wrestling television show make money. You need some sex. You need some light moments, some laughs.


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

Chip Chipperson said:


> Enjoyed watching that.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Flair has been using it as a “ha ha” moment for 30+ years. Cornette would never say a bad word about Ric Flair (rightfully so), because he is Ric Flair, the GOAT.

I don’t like Jericho and the guys playing along with this shit, whether the pandemic is a somewhat fair excuse or not, but the business has always had those moments. We just always swept them under the rug for the biggest and brightest stars, because the business was in a healthier spot at the time, IMO.

Regardless of the cat being let out of the bag or not, you can still take yourself serious and be professional about it. I liked most of the Stampede, but the two moments that completely took me out of the heat of the moment we’re Matt fucking Hardy and Jericho throwing the challenge flag, even if both would be funny in the confines of a teen stoner comedy.


----------



## validreasoning (Jul 4, 2012)

Cornette like everyone else is entitled to his opinion.

I never buy that he hates wrestling today, he played a big role after all in training 4 of the 5 biggest stars in us pro wrestling to emerge since end of Monday night war, 3 of whom were in top matches at Wrestlemania just last month.

Are we still having UFC vs pro wrestling arguments in 2020? Yes pro wrestling can compete hence its multiple shows in prime time on top channels


----------



## the_flock (Nov 23, 2016)

Yeah Corny is right. 

The whole thing was choreographed, fake as fuck bull shit which is an embarrassment to the industry. 

It's the kind of shit you do as 12 year olds in your back garden, which is essentially the Young Bucks style as that's where they started out. 

I'm all for matches taking place wherever and the unpredictability of it all, which started in the 90s and was elevated by the 24/7 hardcore title rule in WWE, the difference being that had believability. This did not. 

One thing AEW doesn't do well is choreography, it always looks slow and fake.


----------



## JerryMark (May 7, 2016)

why are people saying jim is stuck in the 70s or 80s like this wasn't in 2004?





we have too many indie flip marks that only know how to get over with small crowds with comedy and spots.


----------



## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

JerryMark said:


> why are people saying jim is stuck in the 70s or 80s like this wasn't in 2004?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


NJPW and ROH is Cornette style also which EVERYONE was into just before AEW. Nobody was calling for more comedy spots and cinematic wrestling matches when NJPW and ROH were hot in North America.


----------



## Optikk is All Elite (Sep 5, 2007)

Chip Chipperson said:


> NJPW and ROH is Cornette style also which EVERYONE was into just before AEW. Nobody was calling for more comedy spots and cinematic wrestling matches when NJPW and ROH were hot in North America.


were they over with casuals? Where are they now?


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

optikk sucks said:


> were they over with casuals? Where are they now?


Well, that’s why I hate fucking playing to casuals. Vince killed the fucking business by playing to casuals in ‘98 with the Austin fighting his boss, tits everywhere, Taker and Kane, etc. The most goddamn believeable thing on Raw was the cocky heel Rock and Mick Foley having too many chair shots resulting in him having multiple personalities.

Fuck the Attitude Era.


----------



## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

optikk sucks said:


> were they over with casuals? Where are they now?


NJPW I can't really comment on. I do recall reading that they were doing 100,000+ in the ratings in the USA but whether or not they were all smart marks I have no idea. ROH I know USED to be over with the casual fans in regional cities but that was a fair few years ago when Cornette was still in charge with Delirious. They'd draw 400-500 people in non TV markets for house shows which is pretty good.

With ROH I'd say nobody cares about them anymore except their true hardcore fans. AEW well and truly fucked them.


----------



## Optikk is All Elite (Sep 5, 2007)

Chip Chipperson said:


> NJPW I can't really comment on. I do recall reading that they were doing 100,000+ in the ratings in the USA but whether or not they were all smart marks I have no idea. ROH I know USED to be over with the casual fans in regional cities but that was a fair few years ago when Cornette was still in charge with Delirious. They'd draw 400-500 people in non TV markets for house shows which is pretty good.
> 
> With ROH I'd say nobody cares about them anymore except their true hardcore fans. AEW well and truly fucked them.





bdon said:


> Well, that’s why I hate fucking playing to casuals. Vince killed the fucking business by playing to casuals in ‘98 with the Austin fighting his boss, tits everywhere, Taker and Kane, etc. The most goddamn believeable thing on Raw was the cocky heel Rock and Mick Foley having too many chair shots resulting in him having multiple personalities.
> 
> Fuck the Attitude Era.


That’s why it’s not a fair comparison. AEW have their hardcore fanbase already, but they are trying to attract a casual fanbase who don’t want this athletic style that NJPW and ROH are known for. If NJPW and ROH are hot, then AEW is melt steel beam level of hot.


----------



## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

optikk sucks said:


> That’s why it’s not a fair comparison. AEW have their hardcore fanbase already, but they are trying to attract a casual fanbase who don’t want this athletic style that NJPW and ROH are known for. If NJPW and ROH are hot, then AEW is melt steel beam level of hot.


NJPW and ROH WERE hot. They were the talk of the internet wrestling community before AEW came along but now NJPW business in America is very low and ROH's roster is probably the worst it's ever been thanks to AEW.

I don't know who AEW is trying to attract but they're going about it all wrong if they're trying to attract casual fans who don't care about athletic style matches. Pretty much their entire main event scene is filled with guys who are great at the athletic style of wrestling and most of their serious midcard acts are at least solid at athletic style wrestling. Plus, fans who don't like athletic style matches aren't going to enjoy 15 minute midcard matches every week...


----------



## Optikk is All Elite (Sep 5, 2007)

Chip Chipperson said:


> NJPW and ROH WERE hot. They were the talk of the internet wrestling community before AEW came along but now NJPW business in America is very low and ROH's roster is probably the worst it's ever been thanks to AEW.
> 
> I don't know who AEW is trying to attract but they're going about it all wrong if they're trying to attract casual fans who don't care about athletic style matches. Pretty much their entire main event scene is filled with guys who are great at the athletic style of wrestling and most of their serious midcard acts are at least solid at athletic style wrestling. Plus, fans who don't like athletic style matches aren't going to enjoy 15 minute midcard matches every week...


But again, if you consider NJPW and ROH being hot at 100k viewers, then AEW is extremely hot. different target audiences, so you’re arguing about something a bit dumb in all honesty.

what you feel works or doesn’t work is more arguable. But you can’t compare AEW and NJPW/ROH at all. It’s a dumb comparison. NJPW/ROH were only going to attract the most neck beard of neck beard wrestling fans.

At this stage, AEW can be compared to the 2008-2009 TNA. They’re well known in the hardcore internet wrestling community, but have yet to break into the mainstream wrestling community if it exists anymore.


----------



## AEWMoxley (May 26, 2019)

bdon said:


> Well, that’s why I hate fucking playing to casuals. Vince killed the fucking business by playing to casuals in ‘98 with the Austin fighting his boss, tits everywhere, Taker and Kane, etc. The most goddamn believeable thing on Raw was the cocky heel Rock and Mick Foley having too many chair shots resulting in him having multiple personalities.
> 
> Fuck the Attitude Era.


That didn't kill the business at all. The complete opposite of that happened. It was the most successful and profitable era in the entire history of pro wrestling. RAW drew over 9 million people at its peak. Compare that to the lack of interest in wrestling today, after the increased focus on the in ring product. No one wants to watch fake fights for the sake of fake fights. This isn't an athletic competition. It's a show with characters and storylines.

What killed wrestling was neckbeards demanding that charisma vacuums like Chris Benoit be in the main event, and worse, WWE giving in to this very small minority of their audience.


----------



## BigCy (Nov 10, 2012)

I can kind of weigh in on this as I'm a huge NJPW fan. What I and many others expected from AEW at the onset was an American version of NJPW. I think there were 2 maingroups of people who checked out AEW at the beginning. Guys like me who were ready for an American "sports oriented" promotion like NJPW and people who wanted anything besides WWE, there were undoubtedly some curious casuals as well sprinkled in. 1.4 mil checked it out and roughly 700-800k stuck around. I think the other 500-600k or so that checked it out were guys like me who wanted the sports oriented American promotion and when it turned into what someone said "the American DDT" then a lot of guys checked out.

NJPW was generating a lot of buzz before AEW took the buzz away, NJPW would still be getting talked about and generating buzz if they weren't on hiatus. NJPW is insanely popular in Japan and has generated quite a bit of interest in the states where they were about to expand and even made their own American Territory. Their low ratings has more to do about the network they are on and not so much their overall popularity.

I think there are other factors as well but just to give some scope of what some people were thinking at the time.

As far as the poll and topic I agree with a few others in that it is too black and white and if there were a middle option I think that would be the majority. I agree with Cornette mostly in this if I had to pick a side but the problem with stuff like this is you start to see the guys as a joke and it will be hard for people to take these guys seriously again and when you set that tone it's hard to break it. I agree with Corny about 80% of the time but one thing I think he gets wrong or doesn't get is that pro wrestling has shifted (in general) to nerd culture and this is the demographic that is being catered to now. I wish it were different but it's reality right now and as long as the company can make money and stay afloat then they're doing something right I suppose.


----------



## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

optikk sucks said:


> But again, if you consider NJPW and ROH being hot at 100k viewers, then AEW is extremely hot. different target audiences, so you’re arguing about something a bit dumb in all honesty.
> 
> what you feel works or doesn’t work is more arguable. But you can’t compare AEW and NJPW/ROH at all. It’s a dumb comparison. NJPW/ROH were only going to attract the most neck beard of neck beard wrestling fans.
> 
> At this stage, AEW can be compared to the 2008-2009 TNA. They’re well known in the hardcore internet wrestling community, but have yet to break into the mainstream wrestling community if it exists anymore.


They were hot amongst the internet wrestling fans. I remember back in the day many people considered the IWC to only be in the tens of thousands so 100-200k is a pretty great rating. I will agree though that AEW is extremely hot amongst the internet wrestling fans and obviously they've picked up another 500-600 thousand of them along the way which is impressive.

This is fresh in my mind because I just listened to it but Cornette states that ROH got away from the neck beard fans during his tenure with the company. He says they were going to non TV markets, having children turn up, old fans that remembered the old days of "wrasslin", trying to attract the casuals with guys fresh off WWE TV and legends such as Bruno Sammartino. Have those fans stuck with ROH in the past 7 years? I have no idea, I don't follow them closely enough to know but at one point ROH was attracting equal neckbeard and casual.

I think 2008-2009 TNA is generous. 2008-2009 TNA was being watched by a heap of casual wrestling fans and was catered towards casuals.


----------



## La Parka (Oct 28, 2008)

You can bring up the Undertaker all you want but he more than made up for it in the ring and on the mic. Undertaker would've been better off without the silly shit but he managed to overcome it and become one of the biggest stars of all time and an entertaining one at that.

Matt Hardy does not have the career of the Undertaker to pull off the silly shit that he's doing. The match itself was just silly. It wasn't just one Flair flop mixed in with some good wrestling. It was a million flair flops and no wrestling what so ever mixed in with childish humor and the worst of the wizardry shit that wrestling has had in the past. 

This match was basically combining every silly thing wrestling has ever done into one big shit fest with no redeeming qualities.


----------



## Klitschko (May 24, 2020)

AEW has been offering a liittle bit of everything for everyone. They have athletic spot fests for people that are into that. They have corny comedy that sometimes sticks and sometimes doesn't for people that are into corny wrestling comedy. They have violent matches. And you know what one of the top guys in the company is a guy that Cornette and the people that want serious story driven matches should love. Cody Rhodes. He gives you that story driven wrestling thats not about the high spots. 

So I dont understand what the issue is honestly. I dont know why fans want things to be 100 percent this way or that way. Why can't we have a show that includes a bit of everything for everyone?


----------



## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

Klitschko said:


> AEW has been offering a liittle bit of everything for everyone. They have athletic spot fests for people that are into that. They have corny comedy that sometimes sticks and sometimes doesn't for people that are into corny wrestling comedy. They have violent matches. And you know what one of the top guys in the company is a guy that Cornette and the people that want serious story driven matches should love. Cody Rhodes. He gives you that story driven wrestling thats not about the high spots.
> 
> So I dont understand what the issue is honestly. I dont know why fans want things to be 100 percent this way or that way. Why can't we have a show that includes a bit of everything for everyone?


I've been watching ECW from 1996 lately which is considered one of their best years (95, 96 and 97 are considered the best years by fans) and it made me think a lot about AEW and their whole "Something for everyone" concept.

ECW much like AEW had something for everyone but Heyman and whoever else that was involved in the creative did it in a way that was different. They somehow managed to give anything they did the vibe of ECW and have it all hit their target audience so even if you weren't particularly into a comedy segment that they did or a brawl they did it wasn't exactly chasing you away from the product.

So with ECW if you wanted your hardcore mindless brawling you had The Gangstas, you had Sandman, Dreamer, Brian Lee etc, if you wanted your great technical wrestling you had Little Guido, Chris Jericho, Shane Douglas (Man could brawl also though), 2 Cold Scorpio etc, if you wanted your comedy you had Stevie Richards, Blue Meanie, Full Blooded Italians, Dudleys, want hot girls? They have them as well but if you weren't into something it didn't chase you away. I don't know how they did that or how they had everything relate to their audience but I guess that's why everyone calls Heyman a genius.

With AEW they do offer something for everyone but if you take a guy like me for example who likes serious old school wrestling they do have something for me you're totally right. They have Cody, Arn, Tully, Jake, Jericho (At times although not much anymore), MJF, The Revival etc who resonate well with me but then the other stuff they offer makes me annoyed watching it. I have to sit through shit like Marko Stunt forcing himself on women and beating people up, Cassidy wrestling competitive matches with his hands in his pockets and Matt Hardy teleporting to get that 15-20 minute segment that is for me.

They need to find their own Heyman who is good enough that they can do comedy but it doesn't chase people away or they do their stories and they don't have a thousand holes in them which also chases people away.


----------



## Optikk is All Elite (Sep 5, 2007)

Chip Chipperson said:


> They were hot amongst the internet wrestling fans. I remember back in the day many people considered the IWC to only be in the tens of thousands so 100-200k is a pretty great rating. I will agree though that AEW is extremely hot amongst the internet wrestling fans and obviously they've picked up another 500-600 thousand of them along the way which is impressive.
> 
> This is fresh in my mind because I just listened to it but Cornette states that ROH got away from the neck beard fans during his tenure with the company. He says they were going to non TV markets, having children turn up, old fans that remembered the old days of "wrasslin", trying to attract the casuals with guys fresh off WWE TV and legends such as Bruno Sammartino. Have those fans stuck with ROH in the past 7 years? I have no idea, I don't follow them closely enough to know but at one point ROH was attracting equal neckbeard and casual.
> 
> I think 2008-2009 TNA is generous. 2008-2009 TNA was being watched by a heap of casual wrestling fans and was catered towards casuals.


If ROH ever got watched by casuals, then AEW currently is. AEW is bringing more views than ROH ever has.
AEW is catered towards casuals and therefore “is being watched by a heap of casual wrestling fans”. ROH and NJPW never got to the level of AEW today and in fact, never bred to. Their viewers are the most neck beard of neck beard fans. Nothing wrong with that at all. But they weren’t “hot” when compared to current day AEW. Go look up their ticket sales for example. 

and also TNA were also doing similar ratings back in 09 compared to AEW today; when you consider that the peak of cable subscriptions was in 09 and it’s been dropping since, AEW are doing even better than TNA. And in fact, TNA were still stuck in the impact zone.


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

AEWMoxley said:


> That didn't kill the business at all. The complete opposite of that happened. It was the most successful and profitable era in the entire history of pro wrestling. RAW drew over 9 million people at its peak. Compare that to the lack of interest in wrestling today, after the increased focus on the in ring product. No one wants to watch fake fights for the sake of fake fights. This isn't an athletic competition. It's a show with characters and storylines.
> 
> What killed wrestling was neckbeards demanding that charisma vacuums like Chris Benoit be in the main event, and worse, WWE giving in to this very small minority of their audience.


It exposed the business, chased away diehards by chasing those millions and millions of viewers, etc.

It was good for business while in the moment. It killed the business in the long run.


----------



## AEWMoxley (May 26, 2019)

bdon said:


> It exposed the business, chased away diehards by chasing those millions and millions of viewers, etc.
> 
> It was good for business while in the moment. It killed the business in the long run.


There's no evidence of die hards leaving. The die hards continue to watch even during this garbage era.


----------



## ThenWo/WCW (Jan 8, 2014)

Stop making excuses

AEW From 1400,000 to 700 - 800,000

I love AEW and wish him success 

The product needs improvement


----------



## ThenWo/WCW (Jan 8, 2014)

optikk sucks said:


> If ROH ever got watched by casuals, then AEW currently is. AEW is bringing more views than ROH ever has.
> AEW is catered towards casuals and therefore “is being watched by a heap of casual wrestling fans”. ROH and NJPW never got to the level of AEW today and in fact, never bred to. Their viewers are the most neck beard of neck beard fans. Nothing wrong with that at all. But they weren’t “hot” when compared to current day AEW. Go look up their ticket sales for example.
> 
> and also TNA were also doing similar ratings back in 09 compared to AEW today; when you consider that the peak of cable subscriptions was in 09 and it’s been dropping since, AEW are doing even better than TNA. And in fact, TNA were still stuck in the impact zone.



There is no comparison between TNA IN 2009 AND AEW 
Today


*The Main Event Mafia >>> 
The Inner Circle


The Inner Circle *
One of the worst stable in the history of wrestling

-----------------------------------------

AEW is now like TNA in 2013

When they went on the road

these pictures 
Like TNA IN 2013 





https://wwfoldschool.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/AEW-Dynamite-Low-Attendance.jpg

https://i.redd.it/pjr3271ezud41.jpg


TNA 2013 viewership was much more than AEW today 

And this was only 7 years ago


----------



## Optikk is All Elite (Sep 5, 2007)

ThenWo/WCW said:


> There is no comparison between TNA IN 2009 AND AEW
> Today
> 
> 
> ...


bro this is subjective, if you have nothing worthy to say then don't reply to me, lol. chip and i are having a good discussion here.



> AEW is now like TNA in 2013
> 
> When they went on the road
> 
> ...


anyone can find really bad pics and post them


















vs




















Again, if you have any intelligent arguments, then feel free to reply. I only usually choose to reply to people with decent arguments.


----------



## DaSlacker (Feb 9, 2020)

The more I think about it, the more I realize I'm annoyed with Matt Hardy getting to do the supernatural "it's a work" stuff. Like changing costumes , teleporting and playing directly to the camera. I know it's it's his thing and I've liked his creative work dating back 2002 but it would be more beneficial to somebody physically impressive and in their 20's. Somebody who would make in their own, like Mark and Glen did with The Undertaker and Kane.


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

DaSlacker said:


> The more I think about it, the more I realize I'm annoyed with Matt Hardy getting to do the supernatural "it's a work" stuff. Like changing costumes , teleporting and playing directly to the camera. I know it's it's his thing and I've liked his creative work dating back 2002 but it would be more beneficial to somebody physically impressive and in their 20's. Somebody who would make in their own, like Mark and Glen did with The Undertaker and Kane.


Exactly my problem with it. Why is Matt Hardy allowed to suddenly have super powers as a means to stay fucking relevant!?

I legitimately would love if Kenny Omega or Cody or Jericho would exercise some of their power, show up to a production meeting, and say, “Well, this week I have added lasers that shoot out of my eyes. I kill Damascus and everyone of Matt Hardy’s essences. It would be so creative and cool!”

I mean, what would be the difference in them pulling that than the horseshit, selfish junk he pulls?


----------



## IronMan8 (Dec 25, 2015)

Strange as this sounds, I agree with both sides.

I really liked the stadium match.
And I like Corny's ideas on believability.

I liked Bret Hart's style of wrestling in the 90's, and of course the AE.

To me, Corny's ideas on "believable" doesn't mean he thinks audiences should literally believe wrestling is real. You're allowed to know it's not real, but it _could_ be real. It's plausible.

In the AE, even the crazy stuff had an internal logic to it that's missing today (usually character-driven), it was usually plausible for the most part, especially in the upper card.


----------



## Optikk is All Elite (Sep 5, 2007)

bdon said:


> Exactly my problem with it. Why is Matt Hardy allowed to suddenly have super powers as a means to stay fucking relevant!?
> 
> I legitimately would love if Kenny Omega or Cody or Jericho would exercise some of their power, show up to a production meeting, and say, “Well, this week I have added lasers that shoot out of my eyes. I kill Damascus and everyone of Matt Hardy’s essences. It would be so creative and cool!”
> 
> I mean, what would be the difference in them pulling that than the horseshit, selfish junk he pulls?


You hope for them to do that but maybe they enjoy what Matt Hardy is doing

I mean the bucks effective buried it last week.


----------



## Optikk is All Elite (Sep 5, 2007)

IronMan8 said:


> Strange as this sounds, I agree with both sides.
> 
> I really liked the stadium match.
> And I like Corny's ideas on believability.
> ...


No chance of this happening because Russo and the attitude era broke kayfabe. Wrestling is a joke no matter how you try and portray it differently. UFC blurs kayfabe very well. Their stories/feuds are probably not all real either.

Start thinking as if you were a person who used to watch wrestling during the attitude era and moved onto UFC after.


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

Cornette is right. It's amazing to me that people can't tell the difference between someone going into a cake and when you're obviously co-operating to have a fake fight. Going into a cake is something that can really happen. The Stadium Stampede couldn't. Wrestling is simulated conflict. Anything that breaks the realism of that conflict is detrimental. There is literally no point to it. Why have any championships or matches? It makes no sense. 

It's very weird that Jericho saying that if you don't like this then you don't like wrestling. That's very...alienating and counterproductive. Like, obviously he is going to defend the guys paying him $3 million to fuck around, drink, etc. But I bet you Lance Storm didn't like this. Does he have no soul? I think Brian Last said it pretty well -- Jericho is in a never-ending mid-life crisis. It's weird that he chooses this hill to die on. Oh well.


----------



## IronMan8 (Dec 25, 2015)

The Wood said:


> Cornette is right. It's amazing to me that people can't tell the difference between someone going into a cake and when you're obviously co-operating to have a fake fight. Going into a cake is something that can really happen. The Stadium Stampede couldn't. Wrestling is simulated conflict. Anything that breaks the realism of that conflict is detrimental. There is literally no point to it. Why have any championships or matches? It makes no sense.
> 
> It's very weird that Jericho saying that if you don't like this then you don't like wrestling. That's very...alienating and counterproductive. Like, obviously he is going to defend the guys paying him $3 million to fuck around, drink, etc. But I bet you Lance Storm didn't like this. Does he have no soul? I think Brian Last said it pretty well -- Jericho is in a never-ending mid-life crisis. It's weird that he chooses this hill to die on. Oh well.


This is the best hill for Jericho to die on that suits his strengths moving forward. He personally will have a significantly more relevant post-prime career if wrestling remains the way he's pitching.

In that light, Jericho's opinions just so happen to result in someone exactly like him earning more money - and this, more than anything else, is what make him a _true_ professional wrestler.


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

He could be paid to do lots of things in wrestling -- there's nothing inherently that says he needs to do phoney Vince McMahon-style comedy. It's not a one or the other situation.


----------



## One Shed (Jan 7, 2014)

The Wood said:


> He could be paid to do lots of things in wrestling -- there's nothing inherently that says he needs to do phoney Vince McMahon-style comedy. It's not a one or the other situation.


Especially he was one of the best parts of the show until he lost the title.


----------



## JerryMark (May 7, 2016)

bdon said:


> Exactly my problem with it. Why is Matt Hardy allowed to suddenly have super powers as a means to stay fucking relevant!?


the broken matt hardy stuff was great in impact because they treated like he was actually crazy, not wrestling crazy, but literally crazy. they'd be off to the side like "what the hell is wrong with matt?"

it got off the rails at total final ultimate deletion or whatever that was called but for the most part they took it seriously and it worked. i don't need a lot to buy in, he wasn't teleporting, it was a hologram? cool, i'm in. but come on with the other stuff...


----------



## Hangman (Feb 3, 2017)

Yeah I agree with Corney. It was embarrassing to watch.


----------



## SAMCRO (Jul 10, 2006)

At one point in the match didn't Jericho randomly just place a cone on his head and make goofy noises? there was stupid shit in that match just for the sake of being stupid, and he said if you didn't like that nonsense that means you have no soul? lol dude was either high when he said that or he's fucking lost his damn mind.


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

optikk sucks said:


> You hope for them to do that but maybe they enjoy what Matt Hardy is doing
> 
> I mean the bucks effective buried it last week.


Well, during Marc Qwen and Isiah Cassidy’s big oh BTE today, they had a match against the teddy bear and had fucking lasers shooting out its eyes to win the match.

Sooo...


----------



## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

bdon said:


> Well, during Marc Qwen and Isiah Cassidy’s big oh BTE today, they had a match against the teddy bear and had fucking lasers shooting out its eyes to win the match.
> 
> Sooo...


I don't know what is going on over on Be The Elite and I think I should keep it that way. Seeing dudes job to teddy bears is going to give me a twitch.


----------



## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

@Chip Chipperson - at what point are we declaring the Poll a resounding success for the ’Elite’ method and putting this issue to bed once and for all?


----------



## Optikk is All Elite (Sep 5, 2007)

bdon said:


> Well, during Marc Qwen and Isiah Cassidy’s big oh BTE today, they had a match against the teddy bear and had fucking lasers shooting out its eyes to win the match.
> 
> Sooo...


i'm surprised you watch BTE, in all honesty. I thought only the most hardcore of AEW fans watch it. I don't watch it.


----------



## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

LifeInCattleClass said:


> @Chip Chipperson - at what point are we declaring the Poll a resounding success for the ’Elite’ method and putting this issue to bed once and for all?


Hello my friend.

I believe I set the poll for 7 days so in a few days we'll have a definitive response. To be honest I never expected that the Cornette answer would win because it goes against AEW being awesome but I'm happy that serious wrestling has at least 34% of the vote. Keep in mind we achieved this without Cult03 who is currently suspended from the forum (And he would vote for serious wrestling also I'm sure) and a fair few people have voted they're cool with it but then commented that they'd have probably voted in the middle if the option was available (My bad, fam)

Successful for The Elite but not resounding.



optikk sucks said:


> i'm surprised you watch BTE, in all honesty. I thought only the most hardcore of AEW fans watch it. I don't watch it.


Bdon is a big AEW fan I think. Just doesn't like the old guys getting pushed nonsense. He's one of you but is accepted by us "haters" because he's super logical and honest. Hell, he's even in our discord.


----------



## Optikk is All Elite (Sep 5, 2007)

Chip Chipperson said:


> Hello my friend.
> 
> I believe I set the poll for 7 days so in a few days we'll have a definitive response. To be honest I never expected that the Cornette answer would win because it goes against AEW being awesome but I'm happy that serious wrestling has at least 34% of the vote. Keep in mind we achieved this without Cult03 who is currently suspended from the forum (And he would vote for serious wrestling also I'm sure) and a fair few people have voted they're cool with it but then commented that they'd have probably voted in the middle if the option was available (My bad, fam)
> 
> ...


what do you mean by "one of you"
do you guys have one thought mentality or something? there's no "groups" or "cliques" here mate. that's actually a very sad and pathetic mentality, i'll be honest with you.


----------



## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

optikk sucks said:


> what do you mean by "one of you"
> do you guys have one thought mentality or something? there's no "groups" or "cliques" here mate. that's actually a very sad and pathetic mentality, i'll be honest with you.


"One of you" meaning he loves the AEW product and it entertains him most weeks. He's often very positive about the product just super honest about what he dislikes which is why people paint him as this anti AEW guy but every week I see him saying what he likes/dislikes and being super constructive. Bdon is one of the good guys on this forum I enjoy his posts and his passion is great to see.

There aren't any groups or cliques that'd be totally lame but there is definitely a divide between those of us who want a serious sports based athletic product from AEW (As promised) and those who are mainly happy with what AEW dishes out every week on TV no matter what it is. As a matter of fact you guys (Maybe not you specifically I don't recall who) kind of made it that way by constantly challenging us and trying to exclude us from the forum because we have opinions that you disagree with. 

Personally I like the majority of everyone here though whether they're into the comedy hijinks of Marko Stunt or agree with my views on how wrestling should be. It'd be boring if we all had the same view point on here and just liked one anothers comments all day.


----------



## Optikk is All Elite (Sep 5, 2007)

Chip Chipperson said:


> "One of you" meaning he loves the AEW product and it entertains him most weeks. He's often very positive about the product just super honest about what he dislikes which is why people paint him as this anti AEW guy but every week I see him saying what he likes/dislikes and being super constructive. Bdon is one of the good guys on this forum I enjoy his posts and his passion is great to see.
> 
> There aren't any groups or cliques that'd be totally lame but there is definitely a divide between *those of us who want a serious sports based athletic product from AEW (As promised) and those who are mainly happy with what AEW dishes out every week on TV no matter what it is*. As a matter of fact you guys (Maybe not you specifically I don't recall who) kind of made it that way by constantly challenging us and trying to exclude us from the forum because we have opinions that you disagree with.
> 
> Personally I like the majority of everyone here though whether they're into the comedy hijinks of Marko Stunt or agree with my views on how wrestling should be. It'd be boring if we all had the same view point on here and just liked one anothers comments all day.


holy moly what an assumption and generalisation.

In other words "if you don't want a serious sports based athletic product, you are happy with AEW does every week no matter what it is".

That's an absolutely terrible viewpoint Chip.


----------



## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

optikk sucks said:


> holy moly what an assumption and generalisation.
> 
> In other words "if you don't want a serious sports based athletic product, you are happy with AEW does every week no matter what it is".
> 
> That's an absolutely terrible viewpoint Chip.


Please don't put words in my mouth.

Of course there are people in the middle also but they aren't part of the divide. There is a divide between those who feel AEW can do no wrong and those who want serious style wrestling as promised. The rest of the board (The majority mind you) are not part of the divide and do not care about it.


----------



## Optikk is All Elite (Sep 5, 2007)

Chip Chipperson said:


> Please don't put words in my mouth.


i mean that's literally what you said (in other words). I can promise you now that these guys "who are mainly happy with what AEW dishes out every week on TV no matter what it is" don't actually feel that way.

If you actually read a lot of posts on this forum, there's nobody that is "mainly happy with what AEW dishes out every week on TV no matter what it is". This is just the agenda that you want to believe.


----------



## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

optikk sucks said:


> i mean that's literally what you said (in other words). I can promise you now that these guys "who are mainly happy with what AEW dishes out every week on TV no matter what it is" don't actually feel that way.
> 
> If you actually read a lot of posts on this forum, there's nobody that is "mainly happy with what AEW dishes out every week on TV no matter what it is". This is just the agenda that you want to believe.


It's not an agenda but maybe it is just the way I take things but I do genuinely feel that a fair few posters on here (Who I won't name to avoid arguments) defend anything AEW does. Every decision they make is the best decision ever made in wrestling, every signing AEW gets is a future star but the guys they miss out on are nothing but jabronis, every segment achieves it's desired result, AEW is going to take over the world of wrestling and if you disagree you're subjected to personal attacks and being called a WWE fan boy.

In my brief time here (I've only been posting here regularly since February or March so it's not even that long) I've legitimately had discussions where people have tried to convince me that MJF is the best wrestler on planet earth, that Marko Stunt is deserving of national television time, that Joey Janela isn't so bad and all sorts of stuff that any "in the middle" fan would agree is incorrect.

And really it's fine, some people on here have this massive emotional connection to AEW and truly love AEW, The Bucks, Cody and Kenny but lets not pretend there isn't that divide in many threads.


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

Chip Chipperson said:


> I don't know what is going on over on Be The Elite and I think I should keep it that way. Seeing dudes job to teddy bears is going to give me a twitch.


It’s just a YouTube channel, so I don’t expect it to maintain its seriousness. There are enough hints at things that are possible canon going forward that it’s worth my 20 minutes every Monday morning.



optikk sucks said:


> i'm surprised you watch BTE, in all honesty. I thought only the most hardcore of AEW fans watch it. I don't watch it.


I’m an AEW nut, bro. I literally don’t change the channel in support of the product. I only began watching once Dynamite aired, because when I first heard about it, like Jericho has said, I figured it was just another pie in the sky dream. Didn’t watch All-In, Double or Nothing, All Out, none of it. Then a friend tells me they got a tv deal and would be on TNT.

Boom! I was sold.

I simply hate watching old fuckers gets pushes when we KNOW the extent of their reach and abilities. They are every bit a part of the same FACE that lost significant amounts of wrestling fans over the last 2 decades while I was away. They aren’t going to create new fans, only going to continue slowly driving them away or keeping the same ones around til they die off. American story-telling with New Japan wrestling would, IMO, offer something to American audiences they have never seen before. Could be wrong, but I always think it is worth a try.



Chip Chipperson said:


> Hello my friend.
> 
> I believe I set the poll for 7 days so in a few days we'll have a definitive response. To be honest I never expected that the Cornette answer would win because it goes against AEW being awesome but I'm happy that serious wrestling has at least 34% of the vote. Keep in mind we achieved this without Cult03 who is currently suspended from the forum (And he would vote for serious wrestling also I'm sure) and a fair few people have voted they're cool with it but then commented that they'd have probably voted in the middle if the option was available (My bad, fam)
> 
> ...


I’m a Libra, so finding the balance between all you arguing fuckers is my...wait for it... _Matt Hardy voice_ ESSSSSSSANCE!!!


----------



## Optikk is All Elite (Sep 5, 2007)

Chip Chipperson said:


> It's not an agenda but maybe it is just the way I take things but I do genuinely feel that a fair few posters on here (Who I won't name to avoid arguments) defend anything AEW does. Every decision they make is the best decision ever made in wrestling, every signing AEW gets is a future star but the guys they miss out on are nothing but jabronis, every segment achieves it's desired result, AEW is going to take over the world of wrestling and if you disagree you're subjected to personal attacks and being called a WWE fan boy.
> 
> In my brief time here (I've only been posting here regularly since February or March so it's not even that long) I've legitimately had discussions where people have tried to convince me that MJF is the best wrestler on planet earth, that Marko Stunt is deserving of national television time, that Joey Janela isn't so bad and all sorts of stuff that any "in the middle" fan would agree is incorrect.
> 
> And really it's fine, some people on here have this massive emotional connection to AEW and truly love AEW, The Bucks, Cody and Kenny but lets not pretend there isn't that divide in many threads.


it's all subjective though.
to them, MJF may be the best wrestler on planet earth.
to them, marko stunt is deserving of national television time.
to them, Janelle isn't so bad.

and "any "in the middle" fan would agree is incorrect" is simply an assumption and opinion. Stop mixing facts and opinions. It makes you look a bit daft mate.


----------



## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

bdon said:


> They aren’t going to create new fans, only going to continue slowly driving them away or keeping the same ones around til they die off. American story-telling with New Japan wrestling would, IMO, offer something to American audiences they have never seen before. Could be wrong, but I always think it is worth a try.


Yeah, this is what I want. Guys who look the part putting on kick ass matches with great stories backing them.




optikk sucks said:


> it's all subjective though.
> to them, MJF may be the best wrestler on planet earth.
> to them, marko stunt is deserving of national television time.
> to them, Janelle isn't so bad.
> ...


You are clearly looking to continue an argument with me that I'm not really interested in having so I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.


----------



## Optikk is All Elite (Sep 5, 2007)

Chip Chipperson said:


> Yeah, this is what I want. Guys who look the part putting on kick ass matches with great stories backing them.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm not looking for anything, lol. I hope you're not getting riled up; I thought we were having a good discussion about subjectivity vs objectivity, and facts vs opinions.


----------



## One Shed (Jan 7, 2014)

optikk sucks said:


> I'm not looking for anything, lol. I hope you're not getting riled up; I thought we were having a good discussion about subjectivity vs objectivity, and facts vs opinions.


Most things are subjective, but not everything is.

Tony Khan promised a sports-based presentation and as far as I know, he has not changed that promise. As Jim Ross said: "I was excited about connecting with Tony. And then I met with him, and we talked about what he wanted, and what his visions were and they matched mine. He wanted a sports-oriented presentation of believable pro wrestling. Not sports entertainment — believable, athletically-based pro wrestling."

And people wonder why some of us have problems with magical Matt Hardy, "100" yard northern lights suplexes, and Marko Stunt being a threat to anyone, anywhere, at any time.

Tony Khan could have said, or decided to revise his vision and state now "You know, I really like fantasy and video games. My vision is to have people you could never believe could win a fight in real life be in competitive matches. Guys like the Bucks, Marko Stunt, and Orange Cassidy, the average audience member could take them out, but man I cannot wait to show them as being tough on my fake show." If he said that, at least he would be objectively consistent with what he produces. I would nod my head, say that he is delivering what he said he would, and just not watch it like about half of his original audience has decided not to do.

Jericho saying you have no soul if you do not like the Vince-lite good shit of stadium stampede, or the ad hominem attacks on Cornette that falsely say he wants 30 minute matches of nothing but rest holds, are just distractions. The owner of this company said he was making one thing and ended up making something very different. That is the objective truth here. Saying it is fun and goofy and you enjoy it is a different argument and enjoyment IS subjective.

If you and I agree to play a game of chess and my opening move is to jump my king over a pawn and move him two squares up on the board you would rightly claim I was no longer playing chess. Tony is not presenting professional wrestling, he is presenting something else akin to a variety show. He has some pro wrestling, some pro gymnastics, and some middle school level attempts at a comedy show.


----------



## Optikk is All Elite (Sep 5, 2007)

Lheurch said:


> Most things are subjective, but not everything is.
> 
> Tony Khan promised a sports-based presentation and as far as I know, he has not changed that promise. As Jim Ross said: "I was excited about connecting with Tony. And then I met with him, and we talked about what he wanted, and what his visions were and they matched mine. He wanted a sports-oriented presentation of believable pro wrestling. Not sports entertainment — believable, athletically-based pro wrestling."
> 
> ...


I never disagreed about this btw. They said it and they moved away from it. That’s a fact.


----------



## One Shed (Jan 7, 2014)

optikk sucks said:


> I never disagreed about this btw. They said it and they moved away from it. That’s a fact.


Does it bother you that they promised one thing and delivered something else? Tony was able to get many people under contract by either misleading them (I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt that he meant what he said at the time though) or letting his employees change his vision after the fact. The fact is Tony has never revised his statement on what he is producing. That makes him dishonest to me.


----------



## Rozzop (Aug 26, 2019)

Ive only just watched the match, and it was an embarrasment to me. 

What I wont do is spend hours critizing the product, i just simply wont watch again. 

We all like different stuff right? To me, this is not wrestling but friends playing with each other in their back yard, and it seems this is what a lot of wrestling has evolved to. Times change.


----------



## Optikk is All Elite (Sep 5, 2007)

Lheurch said:


> Does it bother you that they promised one thing and delivered something else? Tony was able to get many people under contract by either misleading them (I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt that he meant what he said at the time though) or letting his employees change his vision after the fact. The fact is Tony has never revised his statement on what he is producing. That makes him dishonest to me.


No it doesn’t bother me because it’s pro wrestling and literally every other company has lied to us. I’m used to it. Things change; this initial sports style wasn’t working for them - it lost them a lot of viewers initially. They moved away from that.

It also not the reason of why I was drawn to AEW in the first place. I hated the WWE-style overused tropes, like rematches, Teddy long-style tagteam matches etc. AEW havent given us that so I’m happy.

People who are still dying for this “sports based” presentation are watching the wrong thing. Go watch UFC. You get your stories, and you get the sports style.

also I wanna add that watching a product that you don’t enjoy, then coming back to it the next week hoping for things to have changed, not enjoying it and repeating the cycle is the definition of crazy. When I got bored of TNA/WWE, I stopped watching.


----------



## One Shed (Jan 7, 2014)

optikk sucks said:


> No it doesn’t bother me because it’s pro wrestling and literally every other company has lied to us. I’m used to it. Things change; this initial sports style wasn’t working for them - it lost them a lot of viewers initially. They moved away from that.
> 
> It also not the reason of why I was drawn to AEW in the first place. I hated the WWE-style overused tropes, like rematches, Teddy long-style tagteam matches etc. AEW havent given us that so I’m happy.
> 
> ...


What initial sports style? The literal first thing AEW presented to us was the gimmick battle royal at Double or Nothing 2019 and it still is one of the more ridiculous non-sports based thing they have presented. So I disagree with you that they ever lived up to what they claimed.

You and I agree on the dumb stuff WWE has done for a long time that has driven away millions of former fans.

I watch because I still enjoy most of it, and until recently at least the upper card was serious. There are plenty of episodes of my favorite TV shows that had a bad story, bad writing, a character I hated, etc but I still enjoyed the show overall. Same with AEW. I am there with you on TNA. I really wanted them to be the non-WWE also, and I watched until it got more bad than good. Once AEW gets more bad than good I will stop watching that as well. I do not expect every episode of anything to be 100% good, but as a fan I will give feedback on what I like and do not like and discuss it with other fans.


----------



## Swan-San (May 25, 2019)

It's about 60/40 on a wrestling forum. Add everyone who used to like wrestling and it'd probably be 1/99.

that aside, even the fact that if you did what the 40 would've liked instead which is remove the goofyness, the 60 would still like it, no one's ever said we need more goofyness and comedy in wrestling when it's good. When comedy is good no one says we need less comedy, unless it takes up half the show and/or isn't good comedy.

but instead we get a circus of wrestling trolls trying to be funny pandering to the minority.


----------



## Optikk is All Elite (Sep 5, 2007)

Lheurch said:


> What initial sports style? The literal first thing AEW presented to us was the gimmick battle royal at Double or Nothing 2019 and it still is one of the more ridiculous non-sports based thing they have presented. So I disagree with you that they ever lived up to what they claimed.
> 
> You and I agree on the dumb stuff WWE has done for a long time that has driven away millions of former fans.
> 
> I watch because I still enjoy most of it, and until recently at least the upper card was serious. There are plenty of episodes of my favorite TV shows that had a bad story, bad writing, a character I hated, etc but I still enjoyed the show overall. Same with AEW. I am there with you on TNA. I really wanted them to be the non-WWE also, and I watched until it got more bad than good. Once AEW gets more bad than good I will stop watching that as well. I do not expect every episode of anything to be 100% good, but as a fan I will give feedback on what I like and do not like and discuss it with other fans.


don't you remember the initial criticisms of AEW lol. "nO pRoMoS", "tOo MuCh WrEsTlInG" maybe you missed all of them, but they were there and evident.

I've been through multiple periods of watching and not watching. i've been here since 2007 but i've probably been active half of the time. I went a month or two of not watching AEW. WWE I haven't watched at all since 2 years i think? TNA...well....2010? But to me, this seems like the most normal thing to do. Not watching a show, coming here and being overcritical and then coming back. This is what the Kobe av guy does every week - both with WWE and with AEW lol. can't understand it.


----------



## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

Chip Chipperson said:


> Hello my friend.
> 
> I believe I set the poll for 7 days so in a few days we'll have a definitive response. To be honest I never expected that the Cornette answer would win because it goes against AEW being awesome but I'm happy that serious wrestling has at least 34% of the vote. Keep in mind we achieved this without Cult03 who is currently suspended from the forum (And he would vote for serious wrestling also I'm sure) and a fair few people have voted they're cool with it but then commented that they'd have probably voted in the middle if the option was available (My bad, fam)
> 
> Successful for The Elite but not resounding.


I was just yanking your chain 

I was somewhere in the middle too - Jericho’s stance on it was too black and white


----------



## One Shed (Jan 7, 2014)

optikk sucks said:


> don't you remember the initial criticisms of AEW lol. "nO pRoMoS", "tOo MuCh WrEsTlInG" maybe you missed all of them, but they were there and evident.


Yes, I was here and saw all of that. There definitely were not enough promos at the beginning and they addressed that. I praised them for that. They definitely still do have matches that are longer than they should have on TV, but that is something I can get over because it has been improving. But my point was the first thing they presented to us was a goofy clown match.


----------



## Optikk is All Elite (Sep 5, 2007)

Lheurch said:


> Yes, I was here and saw all of that. There definitely were not enough promos at the beginning and they addressed that. I praised them for that. They definitely still do have matches that are longer than they should have on TV, but that is something I can get over because it has been improving. But my point was the first thing they presented to us was a goofy clown match.


also i think some people took the whole "sports" quote far too literally.

They have league tables for singles, tag team, women.
They have a referee in the ring - and AEW said that they will be a lot more lenient and have stuck to this promise. Matches WILL end in AEW, and not in some DQ fuckery.
They have time limits; and there have been draws.
They've done sports-style analysis.

IDK what the geeks, nerds and neckbeard expected when they spoke on this sports style. Did they want guys to actually wrestle for real? Did they want weight classes? Did they want guys to have minimal character development? No gimmick matches? How boring.

Why appease the minority when the majority don't want this?


----------



## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

optikk sucks said:


> also i think some people took the whole "sports" quote far too literally.
> 
> They have league tables for singles, tag team, women.
> They have a referee in the ring.
> ...


They wanted NJPW

but.... NJPW is right there to watch

and i would also argue NXT - which seems to go more down that route


----------



## Optikk is All Elite (Sep 5, 2007)

LifeInCattleClass said:


> They wanted NJPW
> 
> but.... NJPW is right there to watch
> 
> and i would also argue NXT - which seems to go more down that route


and NXT attracts out-of-touch boomers, so that says it all.
and NJPW only works because in Japan, they take their wrestling very seriously. Not like in the Western World.

Whine bitch and moan about a product that the majority of their fanbase seems to enjoy. lmao. Move from ~700k-800k viewers with 100k+ butyrate for PPVs to doing 100K and calling it a success. lmao.


----------



## One Shed (Jan 7, 2014)

optikk sucks said:


> also i think some people took the whole "sports" quote far too literally.
> 
> They have league tables for singles, tag team, women.
> They have a referee in the ring - and AEW said that they will be a lot more lenient and have stuck to this promise. Matches WILL end in AEW, and not in some DQ fuckery.
> ...


You are arguing against some internet magical strawman. No one ever argued they wanted them to wrestle "for real." Weight classes HAVE been used in wrestling, but would not work in AEW for obvious reasons. I am not saying there absolutely should be weight classes either, I am just saying it would not be something new in wrestling. The referee has been pretty much useless in tag matches. Also, what was the point of having a no DQ women's title match at DoN recently when the men's title match apparently was not a no DQ but operated under the same rules? Do you see my point? Why would a special match be special if any other match is basically fought under the same rules? I do not want silly DQs either, but the inconsistent rules are ridiculous.

And again, the majority of people who were wrestling fans are simply not watching at all. So they ARE appeasing the minority now. They have more times than not used the indy mindset of putting on a show mostly for the fans in the building and not the vast majority who would be watching on TV. And now there are no fans in the building.

Of course I want character development and gimmick matches that make sense. Who exactly was arguing for two hours of straight matches with just a play by play commentator and no emotion? Why is that what you think of when someone says sports-based presentation? What sport do you not have guys talking shit/giving promos basically before and after games? What sport does not include backstories of the guys in the league?


----------



## Optikk is All Elite (Sep 5, 2007)

Lheurch said:


> You are arguing against some internet magical strawman. No one ever argued they wanted them to wrestle "for real." Weight classes HAVE been used in wrestling, but would not work in AEW for obvious reasons. I am not saying there absolutely should be weight classes either, I am just saying it would not be something new in wrestling. The referee has been pretty much useless in tag matches. Also, what was the point of having a no DQ women's title match at DoN recently when the men's title match apparently was not a no DQ but operated under the same rules? Do you see my point? Why would a special match be special if any other match is basically fought under the same rules? I do not want silly DQs either, but the inconsistent rules are ridiculous.
> 
> And again, the majority of people who were wrestling fans are simply not watching at all. So they ARE appeasing the minority now. They have more times than not used the indy mindset of putting on a show mostly for the fans in the building and not the vast majority who would be watching on TV. And now there are no fans in the building.
> 
> Of course I want character development and gimmick matches that make sense. Who exactly was arguing for two hours of straight matches with just a play by play commentator and no emotion? Why is that what you think of when someone says sports-based presentation? What sport do you not have guys talking shit/giving promos basically before and after games? What sport does not include backstories of the guys in the league?


Define the majority of pro-wrestling fans? You can’t put a number on it anymore because we don’t know WCW and WWE fucked shit up enough for them to leave and never come back.

and uh, sports like Football. Soccer to you muricans. Most sports backgrounds are your typical “went to college/school, enjoyed playing sports more” YAWN.


----------



## DaSlacker (Feb 9, 2020)

Personally I would love to see a US version of UWF International formed in conjunction with ROH, NJPW and MLW. But I know no promoter or network would want it. Khan certainly wouldn't; Bucks and Omega wouldn't get it. And the modern spot fest loving fan-base would give it a miss. Shame because I think less is more, nuances and good psychology goes a long way.


----------



## validreasoning (Jul 4, 2012)

AEWMoxley said:


> That didn't kill the business at all. The complete opposite of that happened. It was the most successful and profitable era in the entire history of pro wrestling. RAW drew over 9 million people at its peak. Compare that to the lack of interest in wrestling today, after the increased focus on the in ring product. No one wants to watch fake fights for the sake of fake fights. This isn't an athletic competition. It's a show with characters and storylines.
> 
> What killed wrestling was neckbeards demanding that charisma vacuums like Chris Benoit be in the main event, and worse, WWE giving in to this very small minority of their audience.


Come on now.

Yes it was very successful but that level of hotshotting could never be sustained. Eventually they burned out the audience.

Benoit had nothing to do with WCW business falling 85% between December 98 and September 2000. He also had nothing to do with WWE business dropping by 50% between April 2001 and November 2001.

Burning out the audience was a major factor as well as horrible booking decisions. Nash beating Goldbergs streak, fingerpoke and Austin turning heel at Wrestlemania 17 had far far far more impact on business going south really quickly than any push a wrestler got.

Benoit didn't get a mainevent push in WWE until early 2004 by which point attendance had already fallen 2/3, tv ratings had halved and revenue was $90 million less a year..before he got the push. The reason he got the push was because they were tfhrowing shit at the wall hoping to plug the huge holes that were taking on water on ship WWE.


----------



## One Shed (Jan 7, 2014)

optikk sucks said:


> Define the majority of pro-wrestling fans? You can’t put a number on it anymore because we don’t know WCW and WWE fucked shit up enough for them to leave and never come back.
> 
> and uh, sports like Football. Soccer to you muricans. Most sports backgrounds are your typical “went to college/school, enjoyed playing sports more” YAWN.


We can put a number on it for what it was. And sure, I think we can agree that WCW and ECW going out of business and WWE starting to suck more and more drove most of them off, but we have also seen fans not only come back but grow after companies started putting good things on TV post 1995. It definitely could happen again, and I hate when people say things like "they are gone and never coming back because WWE, etc." We know from history that is just not true. Give people a product they want to watch, and they will watch.

Well yeah, soccer is objectively boring  I take sports-based presentation to mean believable worked matches, not Santino with a cobra sock or Marko and Hornswoggle getting moves in on adults. Football, basketball, boxing, UFC all have guys talking into the cameras or hyping themselves up. Baseball would probably be the one that has none of that. Each sport has its own rules though, and so should pro wrestling. You would not suddenly make basketball more exciting by letting guys kick the ball. You would no longer be playing basketball at that point. Same for wrestling. Having Matt Hardy magically change clothes in a pool is just dumb.


----------



## Optikk is All Elite (Sep 5, 2007)

Lheurch said:


> We can put a number on it for what it was. And sure, I think we can agree that WCW and ECW going out of business and WWE starting to suck more and more drove most of them off, but we have also seen fans not only come back but grow after companies started putting good things on TV post 1995. It definitely could happen again, and I hate when people say things like "they are gone and never coming back because WWE, etc." We know from history that is just not true. Give people a product they want to watch, and they will watch.
> 
> Well yeah, soccer is objectively boring  I take sports-based presentation to mean believable worked matches, not Santino with a cobra sock or Marko and Hornswoggle getting moves in on adults. Football, basketball, boxing, UFC all have guys talking into the cameras or hyping themselves up. Baseball would probably be the one that has none of that. Each sport has its own rules though, and so should pro wrestling. You would not suddenly make basketball more exciting by letting guys kick the ball. You would no longer be playing basketball at that point. Same for wrestling. Having Matt Hardy magically change clothes in a pool is just dumb.


That’s fair. I am not a fan of that goofy crap either. But I don’t consider that sports-based. At all. That should be happening at any time. Even if isn’t sports based. 

and therein lies the problem. They said sports centric and term can be interpreted in many ways.


----------



## One Shed (Jan 7, 2014)

optikk sucks said:


> That’s fair. I am not a fan of that goofy crap either. But I don’t consider that sports-based. At all. That should be happening at any time. Even if isn’t sports based.
> 
> and therein lies the problem. They said sports centric and term can be interpreted in many ways.


It can be interpreted in some different ways, but I would argue not in as broad a way as some are saying. I think the quote I posted from JR was pretty clear. Tony expressed what he wanted to JR pretty clearly and that is how I took it as well. Then I saw the gimmick battle royal and was very disappointed. I have stuck around so far because it is more good than bad like I said, and what they do well, they do really well. Much better than WWE currently at least.


----------



## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

optikk sucks said:


> That’s fair. I am not a fan of that goofy crap either. But I don’t consider that sports-based. At all. That should be happening at any time. Even if isn’t sports based.
> 
> and therein lies the problem. They said sports centric and term can be interpreted in many ways.


they never said WHICH sport - all the while it was the gymnastics floor routine and synchronised swimming


----------



## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

optikk sucks said:


> People who are still dying for this “sports based” presentation are watching the wrong thing. Go watch UFC. You get your stories, and you get the sports style.


I don't know about the others but UFC is boring to me. I do like watching the hype packages and stories but when it comes time to fight I just can't get into it especially if it's two guys who like to fight on the ground. 2 minutes of guys fighting for position on the ground is boring to me.

I do like Judo though so it was fun to watch Ronda Rousey when she was killing everyone in UFC. Some of her tosses were absolutely brutal but having gone back and watched her as a wrestler I found her infinitely more entertaining in wrestling.



Lheurch said:


> What initial sports style? The literal first thing AEW presented to us was the gimmick battle royal at Double or Nothing 2019 and it still is one of the more ridiculous non-sports based thing they have presented. So I disagree with you that they ever lived up to what they claimed.


Yeah, this was really the first nail in the coffin. World Title battle royale and you have total unknowns and jobbers fighting for the spot with only one really well known, recognised and relevant in 2019 wrestler in the rumble who went onto win it. Predictable booking and making a mockery of your World Title. They've just done the same thing with the TNT title where they had maybe 4 guys who had any chance of winning the rumble and the rest were just making up numbers.
.


LifeInCattleClass said:


> I was just yanking your chain


I know 



optikk sucks said:


> IDK what the geeks, nerds and neckbeard expected when they spoke on this sports style. Did they want guys to actually wrestle for real? Did they want weight classes? Did they want guys to have minimal character development? No gimmick matches? How boring.
> 
> Why appease the minority when the majority don't want this?


Are we geeks, neckbeards and nerds for wanting sports style wrestling?

As I've explained a fair few times on this board take the hard hitting style of NJPW or serious Japanese wrestling in general, mix it with story lines that are realistic in style (Think angles like the nWo, Funk/Flair, Flair/Steamboat or even the type of thing the UFC is offering) with slight changes for an American audience.

Weight classes are a silly idea but I think there should be an unofficial one. For example, guys like Marko shouldn't be wrestling Lance Archer or Brodie Lee but it'd be acceptable if a guy like Cody did despite being significantly outsized because it's believable that Cody could do some damage because he actually looks like a grown ass man. You can develop characters in a serious way and can even feature comedy in a serious way.

Gimmick matches would be welcome but you'd only be getting them if they had a reason. So for example, if I were in charge at the last PPV you would've got the match in the stadium and that's it. The rest would've been straight up singles matches because there was no real reason for them to have a gimmick. 

Majority do want it that's why they've tuned out of modern pro wrestling's happy hour of comedy and flips instead relying on YouTube and Jim Cornette podcasts for their wrestling fix.


----------



## kingfrass44 (Sep 19, 2019)

BuckshotLarry said:


> Newsflash Jim: It is fake.
> 
> I've voted for Jericho because Cornette is (albeit an entertaining one) an irrelevant dementia patient shouting at clouds. Really I'd like to vote on a less long-winded way of stating "this shouldn't belong in 2020 but during a pandemic when big stories are on hold this definitely had a purpose to offer fun and entertainment."


Cornette has become (albeit an entertaining one) an irrelevant dementia patient To criticize the White Knight Company 
You mean AEW irrelevant Currently


----------



## MontyCora (Aug 31, 2016)

kingfrass44 said:


> Cornette has become (albeit an entertaining one) an irrelevant dementia patient To criticize the White Knight Company
> You mean AEW irrelevant Currently


English a second language huh?


----------



## Optikk is All Elite (Sep 5, 2007)

Chip Chipperson said:


> I don't know about the others but UFC is boring to me. I do like watching the hype packages and stories but when it comes time to fight I just can't get into it especially if it's two guys who like to fight on the ground. 2 minutes of guys fighting for position on the ground is boring to me.
> 
> I do like Judo though so it was fun to watch Ronda Rousey when she was killing everyone in UFC. Some of her tosses were absolutely brutal but having gone back and watched her as a wrestler I found her infinitely more entertaining in wrestling.
> 
> ...


you consider the "majority" as those who listen to jim cornette









tell me you're joking.


you also want a PPV with virtually no gimmicks. I aint watching that shit LMAO. I guarantee you that i'm in the majority.


----------



## Swan-San (May 25, 2019)

This whole thing about a "sports" presentation, isn't that it's literally a copy of sports with minimal story and pure matches. It's that it's based around realism. Not based around comedy. Realistic wrestling, so no marko stunt fighting giants, spam kickout and spots, teleporting, clothes changing in water, 100 yard suplexes. good wrestling with consistent, mature and interesting storytelling. 

Statistics and rankings doesn't make it sportslike lol. I'd rather no rankings or stats even if it was sportslike, all it does is restrict storytelling. Your story can't be replaced by rankings and win loss records, that's amazingly boring.


----------



## MontyCora (Aug 31, 2016)

Swan-San said:


> This whole thing about a "sports" presentation, isn't that it's literally a copy of sports with minimal story and pure matches. It's that it's based around realism. Not based around comedy. Realistic wrestling, so no marko stunt fighting giants, spam kickout and spots, teleporting, clothes changing in water, 100 yard suplexes. good wrestling with consistent, mature and interesting storytelling.
> 
> Statistics and rankings doesn't make it sportslike lol. I'd rather no rankings or stats even if it was sportslike, all it does is restrict storytelling. Your story can't be replaced by rankings and win loss records, that's amazingly boring.


Nobody ever promised AEW would be realistic wrestling.


----------



## Swan-San (May 25, 2019)

MontyCora said:


> Nobody ever promised AEW would be realistic wrestling.


Is sports based not realistic? Sports based product is serious wrestling, not the stats and rankings which do nothing.


----------



## MontyCora (Aug 31, 2016)

Swan-San said:


> Is sports based not realistic? Sports based product is serious wrestling, not the stats and rankings which do nothing.


"Sports based" in the context of rasslin', does not inherently mean realistic. That's right.

Wrestling is inherently not realistic in any sense. We talk about this all the time. Irish Whips make no logical sense. JR constantly calls out the logic of dives or the ten punches spot.

There is literally no "realistic" version of wrestling that could pass even Jim Cornette's pissy meter test that even remotely qualifies as realism. It's a stupid argument.


----------



## Swan-San (May 25, 2019)

MontyCora said:


> "Sports based" in the context of rasslin', does not inherently mean realistic. That's right.
> 
> Wrestling is inherently not realistic in any sense. We talk about this all the time. Irish Whips make no logical sense. JR constantly calls out the logic of dives or the ten punches spot.
> 
> There is literally no "realistic" version of wrestling that could pass even Jim Cornette's pissy meter test that even remotely qualifies as realism. It's a stupid argument.


Irish whips in the context of wrestling is realistic. 

So sports based doesn't hint to a more serious and less comedy/cartoon WWE style of wrestling?

What is sports based to you, rankings and win/loss record? I guarantee that's not what people who got excited by "sports based" thought of. If anything they thought of a more UFC style presentation and feel to the product as that's the closest sport to wrestling, not the indy comedy presentation we've got for the most part.


----------



## Optikk is All Elite (Sep 5, 2007)

Swan-San said:


> Irish whips in the context of wrestling is realistic.
> 
> So sports based doesn't hint to a more serious and less comedy/cartoon WWE style of wrestling?
> 
> What is sports based to you, rankings and win/loss record? I guarantee that's not what people who got excited by "sports based" thought of. If anything they thought of a more UFC style presentation and feel to the product as that's the closest sport to wrestling, not the indy comedy presentation we've got for the most part.


but they tried this and nobody wanted it. Those who want this fake sports style are in the minority.

Do you realise how much of a joke wrestling is in the western world? You cannot portray wrestling in a sporty-manner when everyone knows it's predetermined. It's the wrong way to go. Wrestling in the 21st century should not be about yelling from the rooftops about how "wE aRe AtHlEtEs ToO. It HuRtS Us jUsT aS mUcH aS MMA".

For me, I would have more entertaining and gripping storylines. Not fucking UFC/boxing-style entrances lmao. That's a joke. The public would laugh at us.

We know it's fake. People will happily watch Stranger Things knowing this shit will never happen IRL. So re-establish wrestling in the same way - make it about the acting, bad guys vs good guys, wrestlers who deal with personal demons etc. Acting at its finest. Attitude Era took it the first step with corruption angles, boss vs employee angles, David vs Goliath, attempted murder, brother vs brother etc. There was a lot of goofy shit too, which could've been cut out.


----------



## Swan-San (May 25, 2019)

optikk sucks said:


> but they tried this and nobody wanted it. Those who want this fake sports style are in the minority.
> 
> Do you realise how much of a joke wrestling is in the western world? You cannot portray wrestling in a sporty-manner when everyone knows it's predetermined. It's the wrong way to go. Wrestling in the 21st century should not be about yelling from the rooftops about how "wE aRe AtHlEtEs ToO. It HuRtS Us jUsT aS mUcH aS MMA".
> 
> ...


Do you know largely why wrestling is a joke? It's not because people know it's fake it's because of things like the stadium stampede match lol. that's my whole argument, there's a limit to the goofyness, I like comedy when it's good and limited but in AEW it's bad and overbearing. 

I knew it was fake before I even watched wrestling as a kid but I didn't care. If I see a plane flying in the sky in game of thrones in every other scene i'm gonna be pissed and you can't tell me "oh but you idiot everyone knows it's fake" that's a dead argument. 

And you're misunderstanding me, my take on sports feel = a more serious and realistic tone for the vast majority of the show aka WCW when it was good compared to WWF with it's cartoon feel, I'm not talking about doing only matches and basic to no storylines (altho that is what AEW is tbh minus the comedy), or to copy new japan which bores me to death with it's storytelling. all i'm asking for is interesting stories that are serious at it's core and not haha my drone's broken haha i'm switching clothes in water, haha i'm orange cassidy and I don't know how to win the match or put up a ladder, haha i'm marko stunt and i'm even hired, haha I suplexed you for 100 yards. All of this to me is akin to a plane flying though the sky in game of thrones.

The whole argument came with response to the stadium match which was the opposite of seriousness/realism which they eluded to when they first started by using "sports orientated". The whole build up was jokey and silly, and I didn't give a fuck who won as it wasn't taken seriously. The match itself was also jokey and silly and I didn't give a fuck who won as it wasn't taken seriously. The sillyness to serious ratio is way skewed.


----------



## Optikk is All Elite (Sep 5, 2007)

Swan-San said:


> Do you know largely why wrestling is a joke? It's not because people know it's fake it's because of things like the stadium stampede match lol. that's my whole argument, there's a limit to the goofyness, I like comedy when it's good and limited but in AEW it's bad and overbearing.
> 
> I knew it was fake before I even watched wrestling as a kid but I didn't care. If I see a plane flying in the sky in game of thrones in every other scene i'm gonna be pissed and you can't tell me "oh but you idiot everyone knows it's fake" that's a dead argument.
> 
> ...


(btw im not even disagreeing with you about the corny stuff).

Your idea of the UFC/boxing-style presentation in the Western World would make me feel embarrassed about being wrestling fan. Why pretend to be something that it's not?

Sports-centric or not, there's no need for any goofy things period. I mentioned the attitude era being goofy, because it was; but they had some realism and grittiness that AEW should try and replicate.


----------



## TripleG (Dec 8, 2004)

I love Jericho, but he has a long history of not handling criticism well. I remember when online reviews of his KOTR02 match with RVD were ho-hum and he got a little huffy about it. 

That said, the Stadium Stampede is a best case scenario situation. The cinematic matches, or whatever you want to call them, are not my preference, but given the circumstances, I'll take that over a bunch of matches in an empty gym or warehouse. It was a ton of fun for what it was. 

Cornette is Cornette. He's going to bash it. We know that. He's old school. We know that. In other news, the sky is blue.


----------



## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

optikk sucks said:


> you consider the "majority" as those who listen to jim cornette
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No I'm saying the majority of people are either listening to old school podcasts such as Cornette's, JR's, Bischoff's etc or are reliving the old days on YouTube. I really don't like that I have to explain myself 3-4 times to you on every post I make because you assume things.

Cornette said the other week his podcast ratings are just under AEW's TV ratings, old school WWF and WCW videos do millions of hits with a heap of comments consisting of people saying "Ah, when wrestling was good" and people regularly say to other people "Oh wrestling? Yeah I watched it when it was good".

In regards to the gimmick matches they didn't really build to any so why give a gimmick match away? Just for the hell of it? You should watch Russo's booking you'd love it.

Stadium Stampede = Limited reasoning. Jericho and The Inner Circle bullied Matt and had some past beef with The Elite which was pretty on and off.

Nyla Vs Shida = No reason except Nyla was put through a table on the go home edition of Dynamite.

Ladder Match = No reason and majority of the competitors don't even suit ladder matches.



MontyCora said:


> Nobody ever promised AEW would be realistic wrestling.















optikk sucks said:


> but they tried this and nobody wanted it. Those who want this fake sports style are in the minority.


They never tried it. The first ever AEW match featured a bunch of gimmicked up jabronis including a dude with one leg. Goofy comedy shit from day one.



Swan-San said:


> Do you know largely why wrestling is a joke? It's not because people know it's fake it's because of things like the stadium stampede match lol. that's my whole argument, there's a limit to the goofyness, I like comedy when it's good and limited but in AEW it's bad and overbearing.


Preach. Wrestling went from being cool when it was taken seriously to an extent to suddenly becoming lame and for kids. WWE plays a huge part in that but AEW certainly isn't doing anything to try and change things.


----------



## Optikk is All Elite (Sep 5, 2007)

Chip Chipperson said:


> No I'm saying the majority of people are either listening to old school podcasts such as Cornette's, JR's, Bischoff's etc or are reliving the old days on YouTube. I really don't like that I have to explain myself 3-4 times to you on every post I make because you assume things.
> 
> Cornette said the other week his podcast ratings are just under AEW's TV ratings, old school WWF and WCW videos do millions of hits with a heap of comments consisting of people saying "Ah, when wrestling was good" and people regularly say to other people "Oh wrestling? Yeah I watched it when it was good".
> 
> ...


Admit it. You just wanted to plug Cornette in somewhere

Those fans you’re talking about moved onto better things, like MMA. They’ve been lost to a real sport with genuine stories. Good luck trying to win them back with a fake sports product lol

Those Ex-fans who long for the glory days watched when comedy was majorly present in the product, btw.


----------



## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

optikk sucks said:


> Admit it. You just wanted to plug Cornette in somewhere
> 
> Those fans you’re talking about moved onto better things, like MMA. They’ve been lost to a real sport with genuine stories. Good luck trying to win them back with a fake sports product lol


Why would I have to do that? This thread is about Cornette and his views I don't need to plug the guy.

This is the part you guys miss out on. You had those fans who allegedly had moved onto better things they were keen to come to the AEW party and were excited for it hence why that debut show started with 1.4 million watching on TV who had been reached by AEW's marketing and were willing to give it a chance. Sure, many fans have moved onto MMA or whatever but AEW drove approximately 50% of the people who were willing to give them a chance away in the span of 6 months because of their goofy shows that make little sense.


----------



## Optikk is All Elite (Sep 5, 2007)

Chip Chipperson said:


> Why would I have to do that? This thread is about Cornette and his views I don't need to plug the guy.
> 
> This is the part you guys miss out on. You had those fans who allegedly had moved onto better things they were keen to come to the AEW party and were excited for it hence why that debut show started with 1.4 million watching on TV who had been reached by AEW's marketing and were willing to give it a chance. Sure, many fans have moved onto MMA or whatever but AEW drove approximately 50% of the people who were willing to give them a chance away in the span of 6 months because of their goofy shows that make little sense.


we really celebrating 1.4 million viewers









you're not gonna get what you want chippy. it's far too old fashioned for today. would rather have 800k followers than ROH's *red hot* 100k audience


----------



## Charzhino (Nov 20, 2007)

I'm with Corny on this. I don't understand Jericho when he says the stadium stampede match is the 2020 equivalent of Jim getting his face buried in cake in the 80s. Getting spaltted with cake is believable because it happens in real life. Drowning someone in water who then re-appears as a different past iteration is completely staged. Y2J is making these comments in half jest and trolling Jim with these comments, and its pretty funny cos Jim always gets riled up about them.


----------



## Charzhino (Nov 20, 2007)

optikk sucks said:


> Those Ex-fans who long for the glory days watched when comedy was majorly present in the product, btw.


Not when comedy was so heavily infused into main event matches. I saw many comments saying how the stadium stampede match perfectly balanced comedy, action, drama, wackiness and athleticism. There shouldn't be any comedy or wackiness given this is the culmination of a 1 year apparently bitter fued at a headline ppv. It would be like if the 6 man Armageddon Hell in a Cell had silly spots where Kurt was stinkfaced by Rikishi or Austin hosed down HHH with a milk cannon or some other goofy antics. It doesn't fit with the gravity of these type of matches.


----------



## Optikk is All Elite (Sep 5, 2007)

Charzhino said:


> Not when comedy was so heavily infused into main event matches. I saw many comments saying how the stadium stampede match perfectly balanced comedy, action, drama, wackiness and athleticism. There shouldn't be any comedy or wackiness given this is the culmination of a 1 year apparently bitter fued at a headline ppv. It would be like if the 6 man Armageddon Hell in a Cell had silly spots where Kurt was stinkfaced by Rikishi or Austin hosed down HHH with a milk cannon or some other goofy antics. It doesn't fit with the gravity of these type of matches.


i dont disagree with this btw.

if they stuck with their plans, we would've had blood and guts and that woulda been some serious shit.

but here's the thing. the stadium stampede match helped to draw more fans to Dynamite than they have in a while - including shows which were "serious". Maybe what you want isn't what the majority want.


----------



## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

optikk sucks said:


> i dont disagree with this btw.
> 
> if they stuck with their plans, we would've had blood and guts and that woulda been some serious shit.
> 
> but here's the thing. the stadium stampede match helped to draw more fans to Dynamite than they have in a while - including shows which were "serious". Maybe what you want isn't what the majority want.


First, how do we know that blood and guts would've been serious shit? Maybe we would've seen everyone do stupid shit all under the disguise of "creative genius at work". Whoever writes these shows clearly isn't a believer in the whole "These guys hate one another so therefore should have a serious match" because if they did they would've given us that in Stadium Stampede which I thought was a fine idea for an end of feud serious encounter.

Stadium Stampede isn't responsible for AEW's minor boost in ratings I'd hazard a guess that Mike Tyson probably is.

Also, how do we know that the majority actually want the comedy stuff? Many people on here have said they don't particularly like it but are happy to tolerate the comedy or it doesn't bother them so much but I've seen very few people coming here and saying "I tune in for the comedy" or even having their favourite AEW guy be a comedy guy.


----------



## Optikk is All Elite (Sep 5, 2007)

Chip Chipperson said:


> First, how do we know that blood and guts would've been serious shit? Maybe we would've seen everyone do stupid shit all under the disguise of "creative genius at work". Whoever writes these shows clearly isn't a believer in the whole "These guys hate one another so therefore should have a serious match" because if they did they would've given us that in Stadium Stampede which I thought was a fine idea for an end of feud serious encounter.
> 
> Stadium Stampede isn't responsible for AEW's minor boost in ratings I'd hazard a guess that Mike Tyson probably is.
> 
> Also, how do we know that the majority actually want the comedy stuff? Many people on here have said they don't particularly like it but are happy to tolerate the comedy or it doesn't bother them so much but I've seen very few people coming here and saying "I tune in for the comedy" or even having their favourite AEW guy be a comedy guy.


wait, aren't you the guy who speculated that there's 1 fan in bangladesh after I showed a source saying that AEW is watched in over 100 countries? Its ok for you to speculate but not me now?









i mean how do we know the majority _don't want _comedy stuff? 800k viewers for comedy shit last week. TNT contract extension till 2024. G shit A few neckbeards having opinions on Wrestlingforum doesn't equate to the majority lmao


----------



## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

optikk sucks said:


> wait, aren't you the guy who speculated that there's 1 fan in bangladesh after I showed a source saying that AEW is watched in over 100 countries? Its ok for you to speculate but not me now?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I didn't speculate there'd be a fan in Bangladesh I said it'd be cool to know who is watching from where because you could say "AEW airs in Iraq!" but it could just be one dude on a laptop watching. It'd also be cool to know because we could get some cool surprises like 5000 people watch in Egypt or something. Wasn't a dig at AEW at all but you're so paranoid that someone might be taking one that you're now assuming non digs are digs.

It's impossible to know why these people tune in since AEW is a buffet style wrestling show. Who is to say that a large part of that 800,000 aren't just sticking around for the good parts and absolutely hate the comedy? (Like me) Who is to say that there aren't hundreds of thousands of fans who watch simply because it's an alternative to WWE and they get some enjoyment out of some segments (TNA had a following like this for close to 10 years).

I can almost guarantee you that the comedy wrestling isn't the draw for AEW though because if it was CHIKARA would be on national television today instead of wrestling in front of a couple hundred people at their wrestling school. DDT in Japan which AEW seems to be basing certain things off of only really draw big crowds for their bigger shows or if they have a star in the house (Usually a serious wrestler). Also, no comedy wrestler has ever main evented a major wrestling PPV or made major money in wrestling because as a great man once said "Funny don't draw money". If we see Janela, Stunt, Hardy, Orange or any of the other comedy goofs in AEW win the World Title and the ratings and PPV buys immediately go up I'm happy to admit that AEW has a predominantly comedy wrestling fan audience.


----------



## Optikk is All Elite (Sep 5, 2007)

Chip Chipperson said:


> I didn't speculate there'd be a fan in Bangladesh I said it'd be cool to know who is watching from where because you could say "AEW airs in Iraq!" but it could just be one dude on a laptop watching. It'd also be cool to know because we could get some cool surprises like 5000 people watch in Egypt or something. Wasn't a dig at AEW at all but you're so paranoid that someone might be taking one that you're now assuming non digs are digs.
> 
> It's impossible to know why these people tune in since AEW is a buffet style wrestling show. Who is to say that a large part of that 800,000 aren't just sticking around for the good parts and absolutely hate the comedy? (Like me) Who is to say that there aren't hundreds of thousands of fans who watch simply because it's an alternative to WWE and they get some enjoyment out of some segments (TNA had a following like this for close to 10 years).
> 
> I can almost guarantee you that the comedy wrestling isn't the draw for AEW though because if it was CHIKARA would be on national television today instead of wrestling in front of a couple hundred people at their wrestling school. DDT in Japan which AEW seems to be basing certain things off of only really draw big crowds for their bigger shows or if they have a star in the house (Usually a serious wrestler). Also, no comedy wrestler has ever main evented a major wrestling PPV or made major money in wrestling because as a great man once said "Funny don't draw money". If we see Janela, Stunt, Hardy, Orange or any of the other comedy goofs in AEW win the World Title and the ratings and PPV buys immediately go up I'm happy to admit that AEW has a predominantly comedy wrestling fan audience.


I agree, i don't think it's a complete draw either. but it's not bad enough that people stop watching. When people stop watching and the ratings decrease, then they've got a problem. So far, that's not been the case. Orange Cassidy is one of the only proven comedic draws and a genuine merchandise mover. and i don't think anyone wants cheap comedy in the main event. i didn't think Janella was one of the guys you'd consider as comedy though. Is your sense of humour bad or were you being sarcastic?

and please bro, you came like "but it may just be 1 fan in bangladesh. then they can say 100 countries" lmao, chill w the speculation dawg. if you can speculate then you'll find that anyone can.


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

optikk sucks said:


> I agree, i don't think it's a complete draw either. but it's not bad enough that people stop watching. When people stop watching and the ratings decrease, then they've got a problem. So far, that's not been the case. Orange Cassidy is one of the only proven comedic draws and a genuine merchandise mover. and i don't think anyone wants cheap comedy in the main event. i didn't think Janella was one of the guys you'd consider as comedy though. Is your sense of humour bad or were you being sarcastic?
> 
> and please bro, you came like "but it may just be 1 fan in bangladesh. then they can say 100 countries" lmao, chill w the speculation dawg. if you can speculate then you'll find that anyone can.


You don’t think it’d be cool to narrow down where AEW has caught traction? I didn’t take his “1 person in Bangladesh” comment to be a knock but a reality of marketing. WWE makes crazy claims as well, so it would be cool to find out where and how many are actually watching.


----------



## Optikk is All Elite (Sep 5, 2007)

bdon said:


> You don’t think it’d be cool to narrow down where AEW has caught traction? I didn’t take his “1 person in Bangladesh” comment to be a knock but a reality of marketing. WWE makes crazy claims as well, so it would be cool to find out where and how many are actually watching.


it really would be; that's something they need to work on. WWE push it; AEW should. An acknowledgement of watching countries would make the company feel all-inclusive and a big deal, I feel. Just like how michael cole screams every week "hello to all our friends from germany, from india" and whatever other country under the Sun.


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

LifeInCattleClass said:


> @Chip Chipperson - at what point are we declaring the Poll a resounding success for the ’Elite’ method and putting this issue to bed once and for all?


Maybe when 40% of AEW’s fan board doesn’t think it was insulting. 



optikk sucks said:


> what do you mean by "one of you"
> do you guys have one thought mentality or something? there's no "groups" or "cliques" here mate. that's actually a very sad and pathetic mentality, i'll be honest with you.


There definitely is a contingent of fan that apologises for everything AEW does. People were saying it was _good_ thing Mike Tyson didn’t promote Double or Nothing.



optikk sucks said:


> *i mean that's literally what you said (in other words).* I can promise you now that these guys "who are mainly happy with what AEW dishes out every week on TV no matter what it is" don't actually feel that way.
> 
> If you actually read a lot of posts on this forum, there's nobody that is "mainly happy with what AEW dishes out every week on TV no matter what it is". This is just the agenda that you want to believe.


That’s putting words into someone’s mouth. 



optikk sucks said:


> it's all subjective though.
> to them, MJF may be the best wrestler on planet earth.
> to them, marko stunt is deserving of national television time.
> to them, Janelle isn't so bad.
> ...


It’s not all subjective. This is your one move. You call anyone else’s opinion subjective and yours a fact.


----------



## MontyCora (Aug 31, 2016)

Swan-San said:


> Irish whips in the context of wrestling is realistic.
> 
> So sports based doesn't hint to a more serious and less comedy/cartoon WWE style of wrestling?
> 
> What is sports based to you, rankings and win/loss record? I guarantee that's not what people who got excited by "sports based" thought of. If anything they thought of a more UFC style presentation and feel to the product as that's the closest sport to wrestling, not the indy comedy presentation we've got for the most part.


You can't just say "in the context of wrestling" and then throw all physics and logic out the fucking window. So now Undertaker summoning lighting and being a Supernatural wizard makes sense and is realistic because it's strained through the "context" of wrestling?

To answer your second question, yes.

If you saw a promotion including Kenny Omega and the Bucks and Hangman Adam Page and this endless list of people, who's shit is established, who's styles and tastes are out there and knowable, and in the context of knowing ALL that. You heard one sentence of the pitch that said "sports like" and you ignored everything about all of those guys and being the elite and the meta humor and the way they work and you just ignored all that history to focus on "sports like"... Then I'm sorry, but that's on you for being willfully dense. You don't really get to whine about being sold a false bill of goods when you willfully ignore context to play dumb.


----------



## TD Stinger (May 9, 2012)

Haven't really read through the thread and dont' really have much to say.

So here's a clip where you can pretend Jericho is Spongebob and Cornette is Squidward.


----------



## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

The vote isn't looking too bad anymore. 60-40 in favour of silly shit.

40% find it offensive and don't want it. That's pretty problematic.


----------



## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

Chip Chipperson said:


> The vote isn't looking too bad anymore. 60-40 in favour of silly shit.
> 
> 40% find it offensive and don't want it. That's pretty problematic.


no it isn't problematic at all

as long as they keep watching, who cares?

60% is still a pass mark in public school - so we good


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

Got time to go through more of the whole thread: 



Rozzop said:


> Ive only just watched the match, and it was an embarrasment to me.
> 
> What I wont do is spend hours critizing the product, i just simply wont watch again.
> 
> We all like different stuff right? To me, this is not wrestling but friends playing with each other in their back yard, and it seems this is what a lot of wrestling has evolved to. Times change.


Most people don't. Most people just switch this stuff off, like they did with wrestling when WCW got bad/died and the WWF got bad. That doesn't mean there aren't people who still want to talk about wrestling and see it make a comeback in a positive sense. 



optikk sucks said:


> No it doesn’t bother me because it’s pro wrestling and literally every other company has lied to us. I’m used to it. Things change; this initial sports style wasn’t working for them - it lost them a lot of viewers initially. They moved away from that.
> 
> It also not the reason of why I was drawn to AEW in the first place. I hated the WWE-style overused tropes, like rematches, Teddy long-style tagteam matches etc. AEW havent given us that so I’m happy.
> 
> ...


They never tried sports-based. A lot of people have called you out on that, but it deserves to be said again. People don't want the UFC. They want pro-wrestling that is pro-wrestling. You say that AEW avoids a lot of WWE tropes? They certainly embrace others. The magic cameras, the invisible walls, the distractions/roll-ups, silly gimmicks, 50/50 booking, etc. And I bet a lot of fans do feel insane trying to keep watching wrestling after all this time. Be careful what you wish for on that front. 



optikk sucks said:


> don't you remember the initial criticisms of AEW lol. "nO pRoMoS", "tOo MuCh WrEsTlInG" maybe you missed all of them, but they were there and evident.
> 
> I've been through multiple periods of watching and not watching. i've been here since 2007 but i've probably been active half of the time. I went a month or two of not watching AEW. WWE I haven't watched at all since 2 years i think? TNA...well....2010? But to me, this seems like the most normal thing to do. Not watching a show, coming here and being overcritical and then coming back. This is what the Kobe av guy does every week - both with WWE and with AEW lol. can't understand it.


Sports-based wrestling doesn't exclude promos or mean that every match needs to go 25 minutes, lol. That's a false paradigm people draw, and it's Vince Russo's influence -- you won't convince me otherwise. No other promotion in the world ever separated the elements of pro-wrestling -- the promos and the angles, included -- until Vince Russo started doing it in the WWF, because he thought the ha-ha was what people watched, when it was actually the stars who delivered pay-offs to their programs. Promos, personality, programs and plasma -- that's how you draw money in wrestling. If you lose a bunch of frivolous fans along the way because they think two guys talking shit and then beating the shit out of each other isn't good enough for them, then I'll take the fans who come back when it is, because there will be more of them and the shows will be better. 



optikk sucks said:


> also i think some people took the whole "sports" quote far too literally.
> 
> They have league tables for singles, tag team, women.
> They have a referee in the ring - and AEW said that they will be a lot more lenient and have stuck to this promise. Matches WILL end in AEW, and not in some DQ fuckery.
> ...


Weight classes in modern wrestling right now are not a good idea. No one has ever said anything about "minimal character development" or no gimmick matches. They just want shit to make sense and not contradict its own existence. 



optikk sucks said:


> and NXT attracts out-of-touch boomers, so that says it all.
> and NJPW only works because in Japan, they take their wrestling very seriously. Not like in the Western World.
> 
> Whine bitch and moan about a product that the majority of their fanbase seems to enjoy. lmao. Move from ~700k-800k viewers with 100k+ butyrate for PPVs to doing 100K and calling it a success. lmao.


This "NXT only attracts boomers" shit needs to stop. The demo rating is like a 0.1 of a difference most weeks, AT BEST! Do you know how many people that is? If AEW gets 300k fans that you consider in that age bracket, then NXT probably gets 200k. Or something. 100k might still watch on DVR and the WWE Network. If you break down the audiences for modern wrestling, it'd all be a bunch of diehards that haven't given up. Yes, the 45-year-olds are all supporting AEW right now, because it's not WWE, but let's not pretend that it's some thriving cultural hub and youth movement of revolutionary fandom. They're watched by maybe a few hundred thousand people that technically fall into what is/was considered the key demo for advertisers on cable television. Far more people in this age bracket, whatever you think of that bracket, watch Raw and SmackDown each week. Still. 

The MAJORITY of wrestling fans, even the ones still around today, DON'T enjoy AEW! That's why they still watch Raw and SmackDown. This past week, SmackDown got 2 million viewers. That's more than DOUBLE what Dynamite got. MOST fans of whatever passes for wrestling these days, would rather watch WWE. Can you not see the tragedy in that? The Rock's new show -- wrestling biggest star returning to the arena of the physical for what is basically American Gladiators (haven't watched, but that sounds like the concept) -- 4.1 million on NBC. You don't think these people would be interested in seeing some of those fit as fuck people beat the shit out of each other? 4.1 million. And they walked into that number. Now, it will probably go down a bit, but have you thought about how big the _potential_ audience out there is for wrestling? Most people don't have time for this shit anymore, BECAUSE it's gotten so silly and so far removed from what it was. And MOST of the people who STILL do DON'T watch AEW, so I don't know how you can possibly assert that most people seem to enjoy it. The people who enjoy it enjoy it. That is <1 million people a week. 



optikk sucks said:


> Define the majority of pro-wrestling fans? You can’t put a number on it anymore because we don’t know WCW and WWE fucked shit up enough for them to leave and never come back.
> 
> and uh, sports like Football. Soccer to you muricans. Most sports backgrounds are your typical “went to college/school, enjoyed playing sports more” YAWN.


People who have given a shit about pro-wrestling at some point. They were fans. Now they're either not or WWE fans. 



DaSlacker said:


> Personally I would love to see a US version of UWF International formed in conjunction with ROH, NJPW and MLW. But I know no promoter or network would want it. Khan certainly wouldn't; Bucks and Omega wouldn't get it. And the modern spot fest loving fan-base would give it a miss. Shame because I think less is more, nuances and good psychology goes a long way.


This would be fucking amazing. The talent you could get out of ROH, New Japan and MLW would be amazing. Even the NWA. I'm still holding out hope that there's something in the works somewhere. I will not let go of my pipe-dream of The Rock's production company starting up wrestling. It would be so easy to get over today. Sign some real looking athletes to developmental. Jesus Christ, you've got the Titan Games right there. Tom Prichard has a wrestling school. If The Rock is involved (4.1 million on NBC, 3.9 million on FOX on a Friday...), he's getting a sit-down with NBC Universal or ViacomCBS (if he can discuss with NBC -- but I think MLW had some meetings). Give me MLW with an actual budget behind it to get some promotion and fans into buildings with stars. And give me The Rock's Titan Wrestling Federation on Tuesday nights on NBC. Then we'll be cooking. 

Why would Rock do this? Not only for wrestling, but for money. I don't know how much of the $200 million budget Seven Bucks Productions put down for Hobbs & Shaw, but if he could get together just a fraction of that for a wrestling company, and he managed to get a $150 million per year TV deal out the gate, then within three years, he'd have made several time his money back. And he would just...own it. Or have a chunk of it. And in order to make sure it stays on the air, he would come back every couple of months, talk some shit, kick some ass, maybe even take the occasional bump for someone, and he'd get another $150 million every year for his production company to make the equivalent of 15 movies about Paige. 

Come on, Rocky. This is what we need. Or at least someone that can get wrestling on the air and be in a position to have the capital to steal guys from WWE, AEW, ROH, MLW, NWA, New Japan, etc. Just the best guys at all different levels in the right place with someone who knows how to properly book. Bah gawd. 



validreasoning said:


> Come on now.
> 
> Yes it was very successful but that level of hotshotting could never be sustained. Eventually they burned out the audience.
> 
> ...


The WWF was having a hot AF year in 2000, and a lot of that was the culmination of the Attitude era and Austin and Rock becoming such huge stars, but Benoit was actually a bigger part of that than people think. WCW and the WWF had very distinct audiences, and when The Radicalz jumped in February 2000, they actually took a chunk of that WCW audience. Benoit was also put in title matches with The Rock, and they did very well on PPV. This idea that he wasn't the sort of guy who could be put into that position is a bit of a myth, and I think it's his wrestling talent being threatening to some others, and his promo abilities being weak enough to exploit. 

The Benoit/Shane McMahon pairing was awesome, but imagine if Benoit had been put with Vince eventually -- or if he got a manager like Jim Cornette, who had just gone back to OVW at the time. Say whatever you will about the guy, no one, _no one_ has ever doubted the guy's ability to talk and be a manager. 



optikk sucks said:


> you consider the "majority" as those who listen to jim cornette
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's not what Chip said. He said a lot of people have either completely stopped or now seek out media that caters more appropriately to their old fandom. Cornette gets over 1 million listens a month (allegedly). He's not doing Dynamite numbers, but if AEW were getting 250,000 viewers a week, I bet fans would still defend it. The audience that hates not only WWE, but the tropes of modern wrestling, is growing bigger and bigger. AEW wants a fraction of the audience WWE has left. It's weird. 

And there's nothing wrong with gimmick matches _when they make sense_. A gimmick match often makes a match worse or more boring. Especially when it's booked like shit. But you could have taken a lot of those guys in the Ladder Match and put them into different programs: 

* If Fenix didn't get hurt, he could have had a spectacular match with someone and gotten a win, building his credibility with fans. Colt Cabana would have been fine. 

* Darby Allin and Taz had crosswords, didn't they? Bring in someone to be Allin's hand-picked opponent by Taz. But even that might be rushing it. Might be smarter to build to that and have Allin wrestle someone he can comfortably beat (Kip Sabian?) and Brian Cage do the same (QT Marshall?) then you can have Cage attack Allin to set up something for FyterFest instead of rushing towards a World Title match he's going to lose. 

* Kazarian and Sky could have had issues, Christopher Daniels steps in and agrees to referee a "friendly match" between the two, which adds a gimmick, but it makes sense between two guys in SCU deciding to go out there and have a bit of a scuffle to release tensions. 

There are three or four matches that actually make sense without having guys jump off a ladder. If you split Cage and Allin's match, and yeah, neither is a HOT concept on its own -- you are putting over four people instead of one, and giving way more a chance to get over. A Ladder Match could have been promoted when there was actually a reason for two entities to have one. Hey, I bet FTR could beat the piss out of someone with some hardware and that lends itself beautifully to the babyfaces getting even by taking their hardware in a Ladder Match. Jake could have tried to help Archer get the win over Cody by removing the turnbuckle pad, distracting the referee, but Cody sends him into the buckle with some assist from Mike Tyson, who has CENA NUFF! Cody beats Archer, but he kind of got jammed up by his own manager's conniving scheme, but Cody's also got a reason to say "Hey, motherfucker. You tried to slice my fucking head open on that turnbuckle and beating you in a match is not enough. You're none too happy Mike Tyson and I knocked your head into. I'm still mad about my wife to do something about it. You're from Texas, huh? Fancy yourself a bit of a bad-ass? How about we have ourselves a Texas Deathmatch at FyterFest so I can bloody you up, knock you fucking down, then when I pin you you've got a ten count to get back up. I don't just want people to know I'm a better wrestler than you, Lance -- I want them to know I'm the better fighter and the better man. And when you're stretchered out and I'm left with Jake "The Snake" Roberts, I'll be the only man out there." 

How would THAT not be better than what they actually did -- something without a finish to go anywhere. You've gone from a regular match with a fuck-finish (but one that helped the babyface because you've got that celebrity involvement), and you move onto a gimmick match that hasn't been overdone and actually fits the story -- Archer being from Texas, _Roberts_ being from Texas, it being a violent feud, Cody stepping things up and avenging his wife, and even the knockout gimmick has got something of a tie to boxing and Mike Tyson. No one would complain about that gimmick match being promoted. It makes relative sense to the context of the issues between the individuals. 



Swan-San said:


> This whole thing about a "sports" presentation, isn't that it's literally a copy of sports with minimal story and pure matches. It's that it's based around realism. Not based around comedy. Realistic wrestling, so no marko stunt fighting giants, spam kickout and spots, teleporting, clothes changing in water, 100 yard suplexes. good wrestling with consistent, mature and interesting storytelling.
> 
> Statistics and rankings doesn't make it sportslike lol. I'd rather no rankings or stats even if it was sportslike, all it does is restrict storytelling. Your story can't be replaced by rankings and win loss records, that's amazingly boring.


This is an excellent post. 



MontyCora said:


> "Sports based" in the context of rasslin', does not inherently mean realistic. That's right.
> 
> Wrestling is inherently not realistic in any sense. We talk about this all the time. Irish Whips make no logical sense. JR constantly calls out the logic of dives or the ten punches spot.
> 
> There is literally no "realistic" version of wrestling that could pass even Jim Cornette's pissy meter test that even remotely qualifies as realism. It's a stupid argument.


This is EXACTLY what is wrong with wrestling. I cannot stress this enough, and it's just...wrong to say otherwise. Advocates have history on their side with this. All the great angles -- all of them -- all the best ones ever done, were done to at least the genre's desire to take itself credibly as a genre. You can't name one because it doesn't exist. It's about the suspension of disbelief, and I hate quoting that because it's such a cliche, but it's so important. And it doesn't mean completely eroding disbelief. It doesn't mean believing. It means being able to suspend your disbelief. It might be Kane breaking the padlock on a chained door and attacking his brother for maiming him in a fire twenty years before, but it made sense within the context of the WWF. The harder you make audience members work to suspend disbelief, the fewer are going to engage. It's just that simple. It's like pissing on their leg and telling them it's raining. It's not even trying. And THAT'S stupid. 

Because what is the point of pro-wrestling if it is not trying to suck you into the simulated conflict between two parties? It doesn't exist anymore. 



optikk sucks said:


> but they tried this and nobody wanted it. Those who want this fake sports style are in the minority.
> 
> Do you realise how much of a joke wrestling is in the western world? You cannot portray wrestling in a sporty-manner when everyone knows it's predetermined. It's the wrong way to go. Wrestling in the 21st century should not be about yelling from the rooftops about how "wE aRe AtHlEtEs ToO. It HuRtS Us jUsT aS mUcH aS MMA".
> 
> ...


That's bullshit. And if you want to talk about people yelling "we are atheists too," the way this style of wrestling is presented is like giving a sermon in a church saying that "god isn't real, religion is all lies," then still passing around the collection plate and expecting there to be something in there. That's losing the work. It's about getting people to believe in something that deep-down, they might be unsure about. It's literally the essence of the genre. It's: 

"Fuck you."
"No, fuck you." 
"I'm going to fuck you up." 
"No, I'm going to fuck you up." 
(Sell fight and profit)

It's the simplest thing in the world and the harder you make it the harder you make it for yourself. 



Swan-San said:


> Do you know largely why wrestling is a joke? It's not because people know it's fake it's because of things like the stadium stampede match lol. that's my whole argument, there's a limit to the goofyness, I like comedy when it's good and limited but in AEW it's bad and overbearing.
> 
> I knew it was fake before I even watched wrestling as a kid but I didn't care. If I see a plane flying in the sky in game of thrones in every other scene i'm gonna be pissed and you can't tell me "oh but you idiot everyone knows it's fake" that's a dead argument.
> 
> ...


Another excellent post. I hope to see more of you in the AEW section. It's exactly like flying a plane through an episode of Game of Thrones, with the idea being "it's all fake anyway, so who cares?" And then getting upset when people criticise it, or being confused as to why people stop watching. 



optikk sucks said:


> (btw im not even disagreeing with you about the corny stuff).
> 
> Your idea of the UFC/boxing-style presentation in the Western World would make me feel embarrassed about being wrestling fan. Why pretend to be something that it's not?
> 
> Sports-centric or not, there's no need for any goofy things period. I mentioned the attitude era being goofy, because it was; but they had some realism and grittiness that AEW should try and replicate.


*Pretending to be something you're not is literally what working is.* That's literally what it is. It's not about being fake, it's about trying to convince people that you could be real. Hulk Hogan made people care. Steve Austin made people care. The Rock made people care. They were all workers who accentuated aspects of who and what they are. Or they worked to convince you that they were that person. That's why they drew money and are the greatest workers of all-time. 



optikk sucks said:


> Admit it. You just wanted to plug Cornette in somewhere
> 
> Those fans you’re talking about moved onto better things, like MMA. They’ve been lost to a real sport with genuine stories. Good luck trying to win them back with a fake sports product lol
> 
> Those Ex-fans who long for the glory days watched when comedy was majorly present in the product, btw.


And this is why even good wrestling is going to struggle, because the cat's out of the bag and people will mock you for watching, even if they don't understand how it's really done and get worked way more often than they think they do. And, unfortunately, serious wrestling is kind of hit worse, in some ways, because it now has to work harder to try and work you smarter. And vice versa. People would be almost as offended at Bret Hart vs. Brock Lesnar, and what an amazing match that would be, as they get at Marko Stunt, because one guy is obviously a post-serious and ironic phenomenon. And people don't have time for that shit, but Bret vs. Brock at least has the chance of sweet-talking you into bed, only for you to then get pissed when she sneaks out in the middle of the night. 



optikk sucks said:


> we really celebrating 1.4 million viewers
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Um, did you just mock AEW's highest rating ever? Is this the peak of fandom? The Rock just drew 4.1 million people on NBC. There are TV audiences out there. They just won't watch this shit. And it still goes back to Raw and SmackDown doing way, way better. This isn't the different they wanted. 800k people is a pitiful number for wrestling. It just is. You can't say something is too old-fashioned to work when this new stuff -- the alleged cutting edge -- is a comparative flop compared to other entries in the genre. 



Charzhino said:


> Not when comedy was so heavily infused into main event matches. I saw many comments saying how the stadium stampede match perfectly balanced comedy, action, drama, wackiness and athleticism. There shouldn't be any comedy or wackiness given this is the culmination of a 1 year apparently bitter fued at a headline ppv. It would be like if the 6 man Armageddon Hell in a Cell had silly spots where Kurt was stinkfaced by Rikishi or Austin hosed down HHH with a milk cannon or some other goofy antics. It doesn't fit with the gravity of these type of matches.


This is another great post. The WWF was actually quite good at keeping Vince Russo's shit out of the main events. The core group of stars they built around -- Austin, Rock, Vince, Taker, Foley and Kane -- were largely absent from _most_ (not all) of the WWF's corniest shit. 



optikk sucks said:


> i dont disagree with this btw.
> 
> if they stuck with their plans, we would've had blood and guts and that woulda been some serious shit.
> 
> but here's the thing. the stadium stampede match helped to draw more fans to Dynamite than they have in a while - including shows which were "serious". Maybe what you want isn't what the majority want.


And this is where arguments become more nuanced. I hate that word, but there it is.

Well, on the surface of it, 800k viewers is not really something to brag about in television wrestling terms. Not on TNT. Not with big stars like Chris Jericho, Jim Ross and Mike Tyson on your show. Even Jon Moxley should help, given he has sway with the modern audience. That they go up post-PPV is...eh? Are you really hedging yourself on that? And how many people tuned in to see the silly stuff they heard was really offensive, then they flipped back off after having a good laugh and will never come back again? 

This is an issue with a lot of the stuff Vince Russo brags about that he doesn't understand. He loves to brag about that Rock and Foley "This is Your Life" segment. But was it getting such high ratings really good? Does the discussion and analysis stop there? Or is there something to be said for how it influenced people to think about wrestling -- that segment in particular in possibly a good way, but also DEFINITELY possibly a bad. It doesn't...connect as well as people think, in my opinion, anyway.

And it still comes back to the majority of even wrestling fans out there, in any sort of abstract, out in the world of cable, not giving a flying fuck about AEW. 800k fans is nothing. Not compared to Raw or SmackDown. It's disingenuous to represent this as most fans. Maybe most fans of AEW are happy with the product? Maybe? We can see that the poll here is pretty split. So maybe they're not? But it's certainly not all the wrestling fans who get TNT. Nor is it most of the wrestling fans who used to like wrestling on TNT. 

And yeah, be careful what you sow, because if eventually all your show is able to present itself as is insincere comedy, then you're going to get stuck with an audience conditioned to expect that. It doesn't mean it will grow or do big business -- but if AEW's comedy stuff does better than it trying to put together a World Title match people give a fuck about, then they're actually in more trouble than a lot of fans would like to realise. 



optikk sucks said:


> wait, aren't you the guy who speculated that there's 1 fan in bangladesh after I showed a source saying that AEW is watched in over 100 countries? Its ok for you to speculate but not me now?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Even most of the "neckbeards" you claim are on these forums prefer Raw and SmackDown. Look at how busy those boards are. Also, you do realise how many "neckbeards" are surely to be in that "key demo" you love to rave about? That demo goes all the way to 49, just saying... If NXT's got a more diverse group of fan in terms of ethnicity and "coolness," then that key demo means diddly-jack. And we don't have that data. I look at the crowd and don't see an audience that a fashion designer or athletic wear company is going to be particularly interested in marketing to. Sorry to get mean about it, but that's how we know the majority don't want comedy stuff -- the only people left are a very white, very male and very...niche audience. 



optikk sucks said:


> I agree, i don't think it's a complete draw either. but it's not bad enough that people stop watching. When people stop watching and the ratings decrease, then they've got a problem. So far, that's not been the case. Orange Cassidy is one of the only proven comedic draws and a genuine merchandise mover. and i don't think anyone wants cheap comedy in the main event. i didn't think Janella was one of the guys you'd consider as comedy though. Is your sense of humour bad or were you being sarcastic?
> 
> and please bro, you came like "but it may just be 1 fan in bangladesh. then they can say 100 countries" lmao, chill w the speculation dawg. if you can speculate then you'll find that anyone can.


But they DON'T watch, optikk. And the people who wanted to stopped very quickly. That's just the reality of it. 

And it _could_ be just one fan in Bangladesh. Chip's point is perfectly logical. It would be very interesting to know if there are pockets of fans internationally. Hell, AEW would probably love to know that for touring and maybe even getting more international TV deals. Even getting a $5 million per year thing for syndication in, fuck, India, might be worth it because it at least covers Jericho's salary. 

But when the guy from FITE comes out and says "We're watched in 100" different countries, that's literally just toothless PR. I think it was Jim Cornette who used to go on about his one listener in Malta, completely surprised he had a fan in Malta. But that would be Malta counted. You go to Hungary and there's five people with the app watching Dynamite? Or gave it a shot once. They're counted. That doesn't mean they have a strong following in Hungary and should tour there or sign a Hungarian prospect to train with Anthony Ogogo right now. 



TD Stinger said:


> Haven't really read through the thread and dont' really have much to say.
> 
> So here's a clip where you can pretend Jericho is Spongebob and Cornette is Squidward.


Lol, Cornette was actually doing the Spongebob thing on his podcast actually. Jericho is more a Mr. Krabbs when he drunk tweets.


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

LifeInCattleClass said:


> no it isn't problematic at all
> 
> as long as they keep watching, who cares?
> 
> 60% is still a pass mark in public school - so we good


Suddenly issues with the school system overseas are coming to light.


----------



## NathanMayberry (Oct 11, 2019)

optikk sucks said:


> People who are still dying for this “sports based” presentation are watching the wrong thing. Go watch UFC. You get your stories, and you get the sports style.


I swear, telling people to stop watching is AEW fans' favorite thing to do. How do y'all want be called a major brand but face no criticism?


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

And that’s not a good thing. People not watching your show is bad. That means it is more likely to get cancelled and then you won’t have it any more.


----------



## MonkasaurusRex (Jul 3, 2016)

Neither Cornette nor Jericho is right on this subject. Wrestling doesn't NEED to be like the Stadium Stampede and Jericho getting his boo-boo face on and claiming that people aren't fans or wrestling if they didn't like it is as tone-deaf a statement as Cornette's "football field fuckery" and "destroying/mocking the business" stance. There is a place for things like the Stadium Stampede match in this day and age but wrestling doesn't have to become only OTT stuff like that and it will always be divisive. Wrestling doesn't have to go back to being like it was in 1986 either but there is definitely room to take some inspiration from that era as well.

Both Cornette and Jericho com off badly here. Jericho comes across as desperately trying to get people to think he's cool and Cornett'e sounds like an out of touch curmudgeon. And let's face it it's really what they both are at this point. Jericho is that try-hard Dad who wants the kids to love him and Cornette is a curmudgeon who is living in the past.


----------



## JerryMark (May 7, 2016)

taking wrestling serious doesn't mean a worked UFC but with irish whips. also people had angles before. in the "10 minute headlocks" days people got (in safe working ways) fireballed, busted open with brass knuckles, had vignettes where they got jumped with tire irons, etc.

the horsemen broke dusty rhodes' arm in a parking lot, they didn't send a drone to his house.





lawyer got ran down on live TV.


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

Fucking two amazing pieces of wrestling history. That's closer to what people mean when they say they want "old school" stuff. It's easily way more compelling. Today it would have weird music scoring it and would be chopped together and edited to hell.


----------



## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

NathanMayberry said:


> I swear, telling people to stop watching is AEW fans' favorite thing to do. How do y'all want be called a major brand but face no criticism?


I've found it's a last resort when a person brings up a good point that is negative in tone. For example, if I mention that it was silly that Taz and Darby had two segments on TV and had no follow up instead of someone trying to explain it which is pretty much impossible to do they'll instead ask why I watch and change the subject.

You'll find that people do this in the real world as well. They don't like something so they'll deflect.



MonkasaurusRex said:


> Neither Cornette nor Jericho is right on this subject. Wrestling doesn't NEED to be like the Stadium Stampede and Jericho getting his boo-boo face on and claiming that people aren't fans or wrestling if they didn't like it is as tone-deaf a statement as Cornette's "football field fuckery" and "destroying/mocking the business" stance. There is a place for things like the Stadium Stampede match in this day and age but wrestling doesn't have to become only OTT stuff like that and it will always be divisive. Wrestling doesn't have to go back to being like it was in 1986 either but there is definitely room to take some inspiration from that era as well.
> 
> Both Cornette and Jericho com off badly here. Jericho comes across as desperately trying to get people to think he's cool and Cornett'e sounds like an out of touch curmudgeon. And let's face it it's really what they both are at this point. Jericho is that try-hard Dad who wants the kids to love him and Cornette is a curmudgeon who is living in the past.


Cornette doesn't want 1980's style wrestling though. Being a regular listener of his podcast he just wants guys to look like they could fight someone (That doesn't mean BIG guys just guys who look like they could fight), stories that make sense and aren't insulting and matches with good wrestlers that use good psychology.

I think the best way to look at what he wants is look at how he booked Ring Of Honor. Main event guys such as Adam Cole, Davey Richards, Eddie Edwards, Jay Lethal, Michael Elgin, Roderick Strong, Tyler Black (Seth Rollins) whilst the midcard featured guys like The Kings Of Wrestling (Cesaro and Chris Hero), Charlie Haas & Shelton Benjamin, The Briscoes, Chris Daniels, El Generico etc. All those guys worked modern styles but are believable and don't shit on the wrestling business.



JerryMark said:


> taking wrestling serious doesn't mean a worked UFC but with irish whips. also people had angles before. in the "10 minute headlocks" days people got (in safe working ways) fireballed, busted open with brass knuckles, had vignettes where they got jumped with tire irons, etc.
> 
> the horsemen broke dusty rhodes' arm in a parking lot, they didn't send a drone to his house.
> 
> ...


Yeah, this is a simple aspect of wrestling I miss. A believable beatdown and AEW had every opportunity to do this just a few weeks ago when an angry Moxley turned up at the arena looking to get his belt. Those two could've met one another in the parking lot and brawled around the car park whilst security and other wrestlers try to break them up as Tony Schiavone hits us with a "LADIES AND GENTLEMEN WE'RE OUT OF TIME!" as we fade to black.

Instead we saw Brodie casually walk away and Moxley let him.


----------



## One Shed (Jan 7, 2014)

JerryMark said:


> taking wrestling serious doesn't mean a worked UFC but with irish whips. also people had angles before. in the "10 minute headlocks" days people got (in safe working ways) fireballed, busted open with brass knuckles, had vignettes where they got jumped with tire irons, etc.
> 
> the horsemen broke dusty rhodes' arm in a parking lot, they didn't send a drone to his house.
> 
> ...


And Dusty did not pose for a picture the next week with the horsemen sharing drinks at a company holiday party either.


----------



## One Shed (Jan 7, 2014)

Chip Chipperson said:


> Cornette doesn't want 1980's style wrestling though. Being a regular listener of his podcast he just wants guys to look like they could fight someone (That doesn't mean BIG guys just guys who look like they could fight), stories that make sense and aren't insulting and matches with good wrestlers that use good psychology.
> 
> I think the best way to look at what he wants is look at how he booked Ring Of Honor. Main event guys such as Adam Cole, Davey Richards, Eddie Edwards, Jay Lethal, Michael Elgin, Roderick Strong, Tyler Black (Seth Rollins) whilst the midcard featured guys like The Kings Of Wrestling (Cesaro and Chris Hero), Charlie Haas & Shelton Benjamin, The Briscoes, Chris Daniels, El Generico etc. All those guys worked modern styles but are believable and don't shit on the wrestling business.


It is so easy to know the people who have never actually listened to Cornette. They say he wants a bunch of rest holds and headlocks. They forget the Rock 'N' Roll and Midnight Expresses WERE the revolutionary teams to bring more believable action oriented matches at the time. They key word there is believable.

They also are either ignorant or choose to ignore his many, many statements praising Rey Mysterio Jr., Chris Jericho (until two weeks ago heh), Tiger Mask, Dynamite Kid, Lance Storm, Austin, The Rock, Mick Foley, Kurt Angle, Batista, Cena, Seth Rollins, and tons more guys who did not wrestle in the 1980's and are not exactly known for a bunch of headlocks. He also has praised guys like Owens and Sami Zahn as athletes, just criticizing them for being hard to work with and wanting to do dumb stuff too much.


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

He also doesn't knock guys just because he doesn't like them. People doubt his criticisms about Omega and The Bucks are genuine because he's had bad dealings with them in ROH. But he has consistently praised Shawn Michaels and Austin Aries for being giant dicks, but talented giant dicks.


----------



## Optikk is All Elite (Sep 5, 2007)

NathanMayberry said:


> I swear, telling people to stop watching is AEW fans' favorite thing to do. How do y'all want be called a major brand but face no criticism?


Lmaoooo ok

again, the criticism comes from ratings and PPV buys. Not from an inactive minority forum like this. Express your opinion with your wallet; not you keyboard. Tony Khan doesn’t visit these forums.

you guys still haven’t figured it out. If you watch - whether on TV, youtube, or other official places, they will take that as success -even if you’re whining like a bitch. Doesn’t matter to them. It’s money in their pocket.


----------



## One Shed (Jan 7, 2014)

optikk sucks said:


> Lmaoooo ok
> 
> again, the criticism comes from ratings and PPV buys. Not from an inactive minority forum like this. Express your opinion with your wallet; not you keyboard. Tony Khan doesn’t visit these forums.
> 
> you guys still haven’t figured it out. If you watch - whether on TV, youtube, or other official places, they will take that as success -even if you’re whining like a bitch. Doesn’t matter to them. It’s money in their pocket.


He does apparently pay attention to tweets from the ex-wife of a guy he has never worked with or employed though. That was weird so who knows what he pays attention to.


----------



## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

optikk sucks said:


> Lmaoooo ok
> 
> again, the criticism comes from ratings and PPV buys. Not from an inactive minority forum like this. Express your opinion with your wallet; not you keyboard. Tony Khan doesn’t visit these forums.
> 
> you guys still haven’t figured it out. If you watch - whether on TV, youtube, or other official places, they will take that as success -even if you’re whining like a bitch. Doesn’t matter to them. It’s money in their pocket.


But then someone mentions the ratings drop of 50% to you and you go with other excuses...


----------



## Optikk is All Elite (Sep 5, 2007)

Lheurch said:


> He does apparently pay attention to tweets from the ex-wife of a guy he has never worked with or employed though. That was weird so who knows what he pays attention to.


What?


----------



## Optikk is All Elite (Sep 5, 2007)

Chip Chipperson said:


> But then someone mentions the ratings drop of 50% to you and you go with other excuses...


I never excused that at all, please bro. Do you monitor my posts or something, what a life to live 💀

looking like an absolute goofball. Chill with it.


----------



## One Shed (Jan 7, 2014)

optikk sucks said:


> What?


The Linda Hogan thing.


----------



## Optikk is All Elite (Sep 5, 2007)

Lheurch said:


> The Linda Hogan thing.


So you’re comparing Twitter, which has over 100 million active users, to Wrestlingforum, with barely any activity?

you’re also comparing racism to some FeEdBaCk about a product that was making millions before covid hit.

firstly a massive overestimation of this places reach. It’s dead. We are a dead forum. It’s the same people posting everyday. It’s the same negative drivel. We are not a majority. I’ve seen this place when it was active and it was still irrelevant.

Don’t talk to me about racism and BLM. Linda Hogan has more followers than this place. absolute clown of a post my guy. You get clown of the day 🤡


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

optikk sucks said:


> I never excused that at all, please bro. Do you monitor my posts or something, what a life to live 💀
> 
> looking like an absolute goofball. Chill with it.


It’s come up in this actual thread. You say that most people seem to like what they do. A 50% drop (or thereabouts) suggests that they’re out of touch, honestly.


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

optikk sucks said:


> So you’re comparing Twitter, which has over 100 million active users, to Wrestlingforum, with barely any activity?
> 
> you’re also comparing racism to some FeEdBaCk about a product that was making millions before covid hit.
> 
> ...


You’re approaching getting nasty to people for no reason. Don’t do that just because you don’t like what people are saying.

These boards being “dead” isn’t something that registers to me. This is the most interesting forum I am a part of. I am part of some dead boards, and that’s largely WWE’s fault, but AEW gets some blame too.

It’s their content that people are going to come here to discuss. If their product doesn’t spawn discussion, that’s on them.


----------



## One Shed (Jan 7, 2014)

optikk sucks said:


> So you’re comparing Twitter, which has over 100 million active users, to Wrestlingforum, with barely any activity?
> 
> you’re also comparing racism to some FeEdBaCk about a product that was making millions before covid hit.
> 
> ...


No, I am saying a tweet on a platform that big from an F list "celebrity" that has not been married to a famous wrestler for over ten years now should not have been noticed. It was weird to me that it was.

And no, of course I am not comparing racism to anything.

I am not saying this place has massive reach. I am simply saying if you are a business owner, and you are looking for people talking about a business you own, what is likely to come up first when searching online? A forum talking about the business you own or a tweet from the ex-wife of someone you have never employed?

You might also notice I never said Tony was wrong to say what he said, I am just surprised it got on his radar is all.

You are attacking a strawman argument that I never made. Nothing I said concerned the content of any post, just my surprise that he saw it.


----------



## Botchy SinCara (Apr 24, 2013)

I enjoy listening to Jims podcasts just for his ramblings...i respect his takes but what he thinks works just dosnt work anymore ...if they did NWA would be a top company and honestly all his trash talking of Kenny and the bucks gets old its too personal to be legit criticism


----------



## Optikk is All Elite (Sep 5, 2007)

Lheurch said:


> No, I am saying a tweet on a platform that big from an F list "celebrity" that has not been married to a famous wrestler for over ten years now should not have been noticed. It was weird to me that it was.
> 
> And no, of course I am not comparing racism to anything.
> 
> ...


He saw it because Linda Hogan has got a follower base and also because the BLM movement will see all of these thjngs. He probably got shown by someone else.

he won’t see anything on this forum, sorry to burst your bubble. theres a more active forum than this. He’d go there first if he was actually desperate to see neck beard opinions. Realistically, he would go to Twitter or Facebook first. There are hundreds of millions of active users. A forum where the same 10-15 people post is the last place he would go. Your post comparing a racist tweet to this place is still a 🤡-level post. I don’t take that prize away from you.


----------



## One Shed (Jan 7, 2014)

optikk sucks said:


> He saw it because Linda Hogan has got a follower base and also because the BLM movement will see all of these thjngs. He probably got shown by someone else.
> 
> he won’t see anything on this forum, sorry to burst your bubble. theres a more active forum than this. He’d go there first if he was actually desperate to see neck beard opinions.


Again, another strawman. I said who knows what he sees given that he saw something that random. You seem to be translating that as I think he sees this. I never said that, so there is no bubble to burst. When you look up feedback on a business you own or a product you are interested in, do you stop at the first result though? I was surprised he saw the tweet, and of course I am sure someone forwarded it to him. I would also be shocked if he had ever seen this place.

I will say he does seem to care very much what neck beards want to see though.


----------



## One Shed (Jan 7, 2014)

optikk sucks said:


> He saw it because Linda Hogan has got a follower base and also because the BLM movement will see all of these thjngs. He probably got shown by someone else.
> 
> he won’t see anything on this forum, sorry to burst your bubble. theres a more active forum than this. He’d go there first if he was actually desperate to see neck beard opinions. Realistically, he would go to Twitter or Facebook first. There are hundreds of millions of active users. A forum where the same 10-15 people post is the last place he would go. Your post comparing a racist tweet to this place is still a 🤡-level post. I don’t take that prize away from you.


I see you edited your post after I responded. Again, no I was not comparing the content of the tweet to anything here. Me saying "who knows what he pays attention to" does not equal at all "he definitely reads internet forums." He has also engaged a few times with random people on Twitter and he is a Millennial, so who knows what he reads?


----------



## MontyCora (Aug 31, 2016)

Botchy SinCara said:


> I enjoy listening to Jims podcasts just for his ramblings...i respect his takes but what he thinks works just dosnt work anymore ...if they did NWA would be a top company and honestly all his trash talking of Kenny and the bucks gets old its too personal to be legit criticism


This is my biggest issue with all of this.

Corny and his fans see an MJF vs Jungle Boy or a Walter vs Tyler Bate and they go SEEEEEEEEE what wreslting can be when you take it seriously?!

And the implied thing they're putting out there is that all wrestling should be those matches and it would be a big success and it would bring people back in droves... But no. If AEW's card had been nothing but psychologically "sound" heel face old school matches like that, with like 8 MJF's coming out one after the other and trying to get heat, and then hope spots, and then here's the tag team version of that match, and he's a triple threat match with that dynamic, and here's another...

You fall into NXT syndrome that way where it's just pretty good match after pretty good match after pretty good match and nothing stands out and I'm fucking bored and I turn it off.


----------



## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

Botchy SinCara said:


> I enjoy listening to Jims podcasts just for his ramblings...i respect his takes but what he thinks works just dosnt work anymore ...if they did NWA would be a top company and honestly all his trash talking of Kenny and the bucks gets old its too personal to be legit criticism


NWA was doing pretty well though. Was averaging around 200k people a week (Just as much as Impact and ROH allegedly) and was expecting to fill a small arena for the Crockett Cup. I feel like the NWA is more into the "slow build' as opposed to AEW which came out all guns firing. Who knows where it could be 5 years down the track?



optikk sucks said:


> he won’t see anything on this forum, sorry to burst your bubble. theres a more active forum than this. He’d go there first if he was actually desperate to see neck beard opinions. Realistically, he would go to Twitter or Facebook first. There are hundreds of millions of active users. A forum where the same 10-15 people post is the last place he would go. Your post comparing a racist tweet to this place is still a 🤡-level post. I don’t take that prize away from you.


First of all, Optikk you used to be an okay poster but this whole calling people clowns, neckbeards etc is unbecoming of you. It's making you look really bad and soon people will just stop engaging in conversation with you which would be a shame for you I'm sure. Personal attacks are totally unnecessary especially when you don't know anyone on here personally.

Second of all, do you know AEW has used ideas from this forum? I don't know if Tony Khan himself is reading here (Probably not) but don't you find it a little bit coincidental that one of the guys (I think it was Bdon but could've been someone else) suggested that Kenny Omega start shooting lasers from his eyes because "Wrestling is fake and it doesn't matter" just last week and this week on Be The Elite we have a teddy bear shooting lasers from it's eyes to beat up a wrestler? It's probably some office stooge or undercard wrestler that reads here but someone in that company definitely is. I've been told that AEW have taken ideas from here before also so if someone can recall other times that'd be great.


----------



## Optikk is All Elite (Sep 5, 2007)

Lheurch said:


> Again, another strawman. I said who knows what he sees given that he saw something that random. You seem to be translating that as I think he sees this. I never said that, so there is no bubble to burst. When you look up feedback on a business you own or a product you are interested in, do you stop at the first result though? I was surprised he saw the tweet, and of course I am sure someone forwarded it to him. I would also be shocked if he had ever seen this place.
> 
> I will say he does seem to care very much what neck beards want to see though.


I don’t think he does. or AEW would look very different and Cornette would’ve been brought in etc etc.


----------



## DaSlacker (Feb 9, 2020)

The Wood said:


> Got time to go through more of the whole thread:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'd love to see The Rock involved in wrestling. Though with his commitments in Hollywood he might not have the time to be even be a financial backer as weekly wrestling and all that comes with it is pretty intense. Hate to be negative but another issue might be 'The Great One' himself. Like Jericho, he's 1990's generation, where wrestling seems to have become frozen in time. WWE style, comedy galore, writers, weekly soap opera format, spotfests etc. It might be all Dwayne knows.

My admittedly unworkable lol idea for a shoot style US promotion would be a bit like this:

Runs from September to May.
16 native wrestlers, 16 foreign wrestlers.
Two groups of 16 (8 from native, 8 from foreign).
Each wrestler fights every other wrestler in their group twice.
Strictly enforced traditional pro wrestling rules with 15 minute time limits - plus a points deduction system in place. Points deducted for being caught cheating, losing by DQ/countout or intentionally injuring opponent.
'Playoffs' to determine champion.
Non-disclosure agreement so contracted performers have to sell in-ring action as legit in and out of the industry.

Interviews, Promos, Segments, Angles, Comedy would be traditional pro wrestling albeit not stupid. Only in-ring stuff would be treated very very seriously.

Dream initial roster would include CM Punk, Stu Bennett, Jeff Cobb, Shane Taylor, Jacob Fatu, Velasquez, Josh Woods, Tom Lawlor, King Mo and Shamrock. Kurt Angle could serve as President.


----------



## One Shed (Jan 7, 2014)

optikk sucks said:


> I don’t think he does. or AEW would look very different and Cornette would’ve been brought in etc etc.


Tony reached out to Jim, not the other way around.

If you want to see appealing to neck beards:


----------



## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

Lheurch said:


> Tony reached out to Jim, not the other way around.
> 
> If you want to see appealing to neck beards:


What in the fuck did I just watch?

I've seen the post show shenanigans featuring Aubrey Edwards stunning Shawn Spears and Spears selling it (Because of course), I've seen Tony Khan stunning Shawn Spears and Spears selling it and now I come across this never before seen bullshit of Jesus teaming with Scooby Doo to beat two wrestlers (Admittedly not very good ones but still) as people cheer it all on. Who watches this and gets a chuckle out of it?

Here is an idea AEW, do the old dark match main event that WWE used to do.


----------



## Optikk is All Elite (Sep 5, 2007)

Lheurch said:


> Tony reached out to Jim, not the other way around.
> 
> If you want to see appealing to neck beards:


neckbeard dont want this
neckbeards want sporty jim cornette style wrestling
the "it's still real to me dammit" style of people


----------



## One Shed (Jan 7, 2014)

Chip Chipperson said:


> What in the fuck did I just watch?
> 
> I've seen the post show shenanigans featuring Aubrey Edwards stunning Shawn Spears and Spears selling it (Because of course), I've seen Tony Khan stunning Shawn Spears and Spears selling it and now I come across this never before seen bullshit of Jesus teaming with Scooby Doo to beat two wrestlers (Admittedly not very good ones but still) as people cheer it all on. Who watches this and gets a chuckle out of it?
> 
> Here is an idea AEW, do the old dark match main event that WWE used to do.


I should have included a warning not to be doing anything important while watching it. I remember seeing them in the crowd for a few shows and had heard they let them in the ring, but today was the first time I saw it as well. I googled for the guy in the Scooby Doo outfit to find an example of the neck beard AEW fan they are appealing to and I found that.


----------



## Metalhead1 (Jan 21, 2019)

Although I admire Cornette's extreme passion for wrestling, he gets way too critical when wrestling is non traditional. He clearly over reacted in this regard.

I liked Stadium Stampede. In a world where lots of wrestling is just painfully boring and scripted, Stadium Stampede was entertaining and a breath of fresh air.


----------



## One Shed (Jan 7, 2014)

optikk sucks said:


> neckbeard dont want this
> neckbeards want sporty jim cornette style wrestling


Compare your average crowd demographics at a show Jim Cornette was a part of to the people standing up for that...spectacle. Which one would more accurately described as a basement dwelling neck beard? The grandmothers trying to hit Jim with their purses and chairs, or the great unwashed that cheer two guys cosplaying and getting a pin over two actual wrestlers?


----------



## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

Lheurch said:


> I should have included a warning not to be doing anything important while watching it. I remember seeing them in the crowd for a few shows and had heard they let them in the ring, but today was the first time I saw it as well. I googled for the guy in the Scooby Doo outfit to find an example of the neck beard AEW fan they are appealing to and I found that.


Oh shit, those guys are fans? I assumed backstage staff or local indy guys that they had brought in for a spot.

Sure, why not let the fans beat the wrestlers and then have them go on TV and wrestle competitive matches against legitimate wrestlers. Why not?

This company...


----------



## Optikk is All Elite (Sep 5, 2007)

Lheurch said:


> Compare your average crowd demographics at a show Jim Cornette was a part of to the people standing up for that...spectacle. Which one would more accurately described as a basement dwelling neck beard? The grandmothers trying to hit Jim with their purses and chairs, or the great unwashed that cheer two guys cosplaying and getting a pin over two actual wrestlers?


they just look like your normal american tbh


----------



## One Shed (Jan 7, 2014)

Chip Chipperson said:


> Oh shit, those guys are fans? I assumed backstage staff or local indy guys that they had brought in for a spot.
> 
> Sure, why not let the fans beat the wrestlers and then have them go on TV and wrestle competitive matches against legitimate wrestlers. Why not?
> 
> This company...


What? You do not remember all those segments after RAW went off the air of letting the fans getting quick pins on Austin and Rock? Oh wait, I forgot those guys were stars.

Even in a silly after RAW segment like the whole "Undertakerooni" thing, HHH and Rock made sure to maintain they hated each other during the segment. Also, in an era where everyone has a device in their pocket that can record HD video, you have to assume anything you put out after your cameras stop rolling is ending up on YouTube so there really is no such thing any more as "just for the local fans in the building."


----------



## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

Lheurch said:


> What? You do not remember all those segments after RAW went off the air of letting the fans getting quick pins on Austin and Rock? Oh wait, I forgot those guys were stars.
> 
> Even in a silly after RAW segment like the whole "Undertakerooni" thing, HHH and Rock made sure to maintain they hated each other during the segment. Also, in an era where everyone has a device in their pocket that can record HD video, you have to assume anything you put out after your cameras stop rolling is ending up on YouTube so there really is no such thing any more as "just for the local fans in the building."


Yeah, back in the day you could get away with silliness after the nights event (Although I draw the line at the fans pinning wrestlers) but in 2020 you can't do that. QT Marshall is starting to get a push on TV how can I take him seriously after seeing him get beat by a fan?


----------



## MonkasaurusRex (Jul 3, 2016)

Chip Chipperson said:


> I've found it's a last resort when a person brings up a good point that is negative in tone. For example, if I mention that it was silly that Taz and Darby had two segments on TV and had no follow up instead of someone trying to explain it which is pretty much impossible to do they'll instead ask why I watch and change the subject.
> 
> You'll find that people do this in the real world as well. They don't like something so they'll deflect.
> 
> ...




I was using "1986" to illustrate a point. It doesn't mean that you have to wrestle matches like it's 1986 or use movesets from 1986. You can use all the modern movesets and progressive wrestling styles you want within a match but to seemingly imply that Cornette's booking style isn't HEAVILY influenced(and this isn't a bad thing by the way) by 1980's Southern wrestling is naive as hell. It doesn't matter where he books OVW SMW ROH WWF it was always reminiscent of Mid-South, World Class, Memphis(Continental Wrestling Association for those who like to use parentheses in a condescending manner), or 1980's NWA(some of the absolute best ring work and progressive styles of wrestling in the era emanated from these places not to mention the most relatable and emotional storytelling of the era as well) because that's what he loved and worked in. There could be more inspiration taken(in all aspects of modern pro wrestling) from the sensibilities of Southern Wrestling. That isn't to say that you can't also explore other avenues because let's face it wrestling is still entertainment.


Don't confuse me saying "1986" with me meaning 1986 WWF. Cornette is a southern guy and was brought up on Southern Wrestling. It wasn't about BIG guys with BIG muscles selling T-Shirts and being superheroes. It was predominantly populated by guys who wouldn't look out of place at a roadhouse in Louisville on a Saturday night and emphasized the very things that he has tried to emphasize everywhere he has ever booked in his career. Deeply relatable and emotional and often visceral storytelling, superb psychology, a wealth of different wrestling styles, and high-quality wrestling.

The inherent problem is the fact that he thinks anything that doesn't adhere to his sensibilities is shitting on the business. The BUSINESS of wrestling has changed. He needs to realize that those sensibilities on their own code aren't worth a dime currently. Just the same as Jericho's boo-boo faced assertion that if you didn't like the Stadium Stampede then you aren't a wrestling fan doesn't hold up. Wrestling exists somewhere between the two where both over the top nonsense and deeply relatable storytelling have a place and can co-exist and intermingle to create something that satiates fans of both and maybe those that enjoy the prospect of a combination thereof as well. If people would take a deep enough dive into the world of pro wrestling beyond what Dave Meltzer says is good or cool or what's the hell ever he says you will find that wrestling is and always was a smorgasbord there are so many different presentations out there it doesn't have to be one thing and not another. Thinking that it is a black or white situation is just as tone-deaf a stand as Jericho and Cornette are making on the matter.


P.S. I also loved the condescending tone of your reply I absolutely adore being talked down to like I'm a child so thank you for that.


----------



## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

MonkasaurusRex said:


> P.S. I also loved the condescending tone of your reply I absolutely adore being talked down to like I'm a child so thank you for that.


Condescending wasn't my intention at all just discussion. Apologies if you took it the wrong way.


----------



## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

What are the over / under odds of Cornette not watching tonight as promised?

any takers?


----------



## One Shed (Jan 7, 2014)

LifeInCattleClass said:


> What are the over / under odds of Cornette not watching tonight as promised?
> 
> any takers?


I am pretty sure he partially revised that after FTR debuted. He is interviewing them for his podcast to be released Friday.


----------



## MonkasaurusRex (Jul 3, 2016)

Chip Chipperson said:


> Condescending wasn't my intention at all just discussion. Apologies if you took it the wrong way.


You don't need to apologize but let's face it you assumed I wasn't familiar with Ring Of Honor and the histories of some high profile performers to the point where even though we are in an AEW thread you had to use a performer's WWE pseudonym as a way of "informing" me of who they are. Which I find at the very least odd as hell to do. I mean even if I wasn't aware of someone google is a thing right? I didn't just dream it did I?


----------



## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

LifeInCattleClass said:


> What are the over / under odds of Cornette not watching tonight as promised?
> 
> any takers?


I don't think he ever said that he was done completely. Might have to go back and listen but I think he was just taking a break from it.



MonkasaurusRex said:


> You don't need to apologize but let's face it you assumed I wasn't familiar with Ring Of Honor and the histories of some high profile performers to the point where even though we are in an AEW thread you had to use a performer's WWE pseudonym as a way of "informing" me of who they are. Which I find at the very least odd as hell to do. I mean even if I wasn't aware of someone google is a thing right? I didn't just dream it did I?


I don't know you or what you know. A few people here don't know their wrestling history and I'm sure some are young enough to have maybe not even been following wrestling a decade ago when Rollins dropped the Tyler Black name. 

You have made it known that you know his history though and that's fine. I try to be friendly with everyone here even if I disagree with them or don't like them so being condescending or trying to make people feel shitty isn't really something I ever try to do.


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

I don’t think it was purposely condescending. I’m an old school wrestling fan who left for 2 decades and had no clue who Bryan Danielson was until I kept seeing his name pop-up in discussions only to realize he’s Daniel Bryan. Lol


----------



## Jman55 (Nov 21, 2016)

Chip Chipperson said:


> Yeah, back in the day you could get away with silliness after the nights event (Although I draw the line at the fans pinning wrestlers) but in 2020 you can't do that. QT Marshall is starting to get a push on TV how can I take him seriously after seeing him get beat by a fan?


See I don't give a shit about this but it has to be under a couple of conditions

1. Only faces do not have heels who shouldn't give a shit about popping the fans do stuff like this do it for the good guys who are supposed to be the people the fans like giving them a fun moment that is fine to me it makes sense

2. If for whatever reason a heel is involved (for the love of god don't) or if some babyfaces aren't getting along with each other and are both involved keep the rivalries themselves going do not in anyway show them getting along or liking each other.

3. It's blatantly obvious about what it is.

The segment that was shown didn't break any of those conditions so to me it's just fun with the fans that is not meant to be taken seriously and it was just to give the crowd a fun moment to go home on. Nothing wrong with it to me since the conditions I just mentioned were met.


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

Haven’t gone through everything and there’s an awesome post about The Rock that I will get to, but here are some short thoughts as i



Botchy SinCara said:


> I enjoy listening to Jims podcasts just for his ramblings...i respect his takes but what he thinks works just dosnt work anymore ...if they did NWA would be a top company and honestly all his trash talking of Kenny and the bucks gets old its too personal to be legit criticism


Your points are very reasonable here, so my disagreement is civil, please mind, but I think the issue with the NWA is a few fold:

It’s so hard to build. The NWA is a husk of a once-great entity. It’s hard to make even hardcore fans care about it. TNA has nowhere near the historical credibility, but it would face the same problems. AEW has the immediate advantage because of its capital and because the hardcore fan, while you need to be careful of appealing exclusively to them, was going to travel, fill up buildings, and provide an atmosphere that a network like TNT could back, meaning exposure. If AEW only existed on the Travel Planet 3 network, or whatever the fuck, it wouldn’t be doing 800k viewers. If the NWA was bought by Tony Khan and they promoted a huge show (to the hardcore fan) with Chris Jericho challenging for the NWA World Title, it could have led to a program doing better than Dynamite right now.

And the biggest promotions define the tone. WWE is still the market leader, while AEW is the silver medalist. When they both say “wrestling is silly,” that creates an umbrella that is difficult for promotions like the NWA and MLW to get away from. A lapsed fan may not even know they exist before they get turned off by a cursory knowledge of a promotion they checked out featuring Chris Jericho and Jim Ross.

It’s not fair to put small-scale serious presentations on the same plateau as larger silly ones



MontyCora said:


> This is my biggest issue with all of this.
> 
> Corny and his fans see an MJF vs Jungle Boy or a Walter vs Tyler Bate and they go SEEEEEEEEE what wreslting can be when you take it seriously?!
> 
> ...


Thanks for recognising the point that even hardcore fans will respond positively to the stuff that Corny wants to see. I think you’re working overtime to discredit it though. I’ll tell an anecdote:

I ordered an EVOLVE show once. I heard great things about it. There had been a bunch of talent changes and the first three matches were different or something. But they all went 15 minutes and had everyone kicking out of everything. I can’t even remember who was involved, but there was a woman manager, Caleb Konley and Rich Swann at points. I got exhausted and switched it off, even before I got to the Chris Hero match I wanted to see.

That’s the equivalent to a walk-out. I paid _my money_ to see this show and got burnt out by matches that were all the same. So I don’t disagree with your point, but feel it is misapplied. The fans who love MJF vs. Jungle Boy don’t want to see it six times on a card. They then also want to see FTR lead Private Party through a good match where they play with their food a bit too much. And then they want to see a squash where a big man destroys a lower-card guy who looks like he could defend himself. Then they want to hear a promo that blows their minds. Then they want to see an angle where a babyface is taken out by some dastardly heels.

It’s not all one thing. You book your cards to have flow and structure and make sure everyone is emphasised. But that doesn’t mean you need to have Orange Cassidy going 20 minutes with his hands in his pockets or change the tone of a show entirely.

Pro-wrestling didn’t get old so people went away. Pro-wrestling moved away from pro-wrestling and chased people away. The simple stuff works and put together well creates more unique shows than the modern philosophy.

I strongly recommend people go back and watch some Mid-South Wrestling. Possibly the best episode of wrestling TV ever is the Ted DiBiase face turn where he faces Ric Flair for the World Title. That’s not repetitive TV. It’s just fucking amazing pro-wrestling.


----------



## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

Chip Chipperson said:


> I don't think he ever said that he was done completely. Might have to go back and listen but I think he was just taking a break from it.


it is the only Corny pod i’ve ever listened too - so, i remember it quite well

something like ‘i’ll never watch this shit again’

definitely wasn’t framed as ‘i’m taking 2 weeks off’


----------



## MontyCora (Aug 31, 2016)

So I logged in from a browser on my lap top to browse for a few minutes without signing in. 

@The Wood. I saw that you left me a War and Peace length response in this thread... I've had you on ignore for like, several months mate. You can stop wasting your time.


----------



## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

MontyCora said:


> So I logged in from a browser on my lap top to browse for a few minutes without signing in.
> 
> @The Wood. I saw that you left me a War and Peace length response in this thread... I've had you on ignore for like, several months mate. You can stop wasting your time.


Oh man, you're not one of those are you? The Wood offers a different opinion but it's usually quite an educated one. Don't know why anyone would block him.


----------



## MontyCora (Aug 31, 2016)

Chip Chipperson said:


> Oh man, you're not one of those are you? The Wood offers a different opinion but it's usually quite an educated one. Don't know why anyone would block him.


----------



## MarkOfAllMarks (Apr 7, 2018)

I liked it, it wasn't a wrestling match, as much as it was just an all out brawl. It's gimmicky sure but it was fun to watch and I wouldn't compare it to a regular wrestling match because obviously they wanted it to be something different. For what it was, I was highly entertained.


----------



## Cult03 (Oct 31, 2016)

Fuck, the "you must like this or else" disease has infected Jericho too. I liked the match for the most part but nobody should be guilt tripped into enjoying any of the shit this company has put out. If you don't like it, you don't like it. Pretty simple stuff that both AEW and their fans need to understand


----------



## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

Interestingly enough the poll is now almost 50-50. Jericho is right on 57 votes and Cornette is right on 46...


----------



## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1268945172513030147
Tony Khan says wrestling for him back in the day was cringeworthy and AEW isn't about that life...I wonder how he explains Stadium Stampede though


----------



## One Shed (Jan 7, 2014)

Chip Chipperson said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1268945172513030147
> Tony Khan says wrestling for him back in the day was cringeworthy and AEW isn't about that life...I wonder how he explains Stadium Stampede though


It was good shit, pal. If you hated our art you have no soul and hate wrestling.


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

Apparently almost 50% of the people polled in the _AEW forum_ have no soul.


----------



## DaSlacker (Feb 9, 2020)

Chip Chipperson said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1268945172513030147
> Tony Khan says wrestling for him back in the day was cringeworthy and AEW isn't about that life...I wonder how he explains Stadium Stampede though


Khan makes a good point because we've all been there. Trying to sell wrestling as good to a friend, only for a bad gimmick or terrible botch or horrible match to kill your argument.. 

It didn't work for me but in a way I think Stadium Stampede went beyond wrestle crap. It was pure Comedy Central intentional parody of pro wrestling on PPV. The Cinematic Match . To give them some leeway,it was a PPV without an audience and they'd kind of shown were that feud was heading during the backstage brawls and Matt Hardy's antics.

Though that doesn't explain the video game fighting and the way they use indie level comedy wrestlers and other WWE style antics on Dynamite. Unless AEW is meant to be one big self referential satirical version of wrestling...But then what is the point to it all.

So either there is one huge plan. For example, the end game being a war between serious competitive wrestlers vs clowns that have turned wrestling into a scripted comedy show. WCW vs NWO for the modern era, in reverse. Or Tony is simply bullshitting his way towards a 175 million dollar deal with WarnerMedia. I know what my money is on.


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

The thing is, if they didn't do the cringe-worthy stuff that Tony Khan apparently doesn't like (coughbullshit), then they could be getting $175 million a year. They've left money on the table to do this. They want to get the PWG stuff over in a mainstream way. It's why they did Orange Cassidy and the like at the start of the promotion. Then they've slowly started introducing more and more bullshit to try and sneak it past you. 

It's honestly quite hostile and insulting to your intelligence. They know you won't accept something out the gate, so they sneak little doses into your meal until you are immune. Except it keeps them at <1 million viewers.


----------



## Vega LVI (Jun 6, 2020)

DaSlacker said:


> 2) Jim is slightly hypocritical to be so hard on AEW's exposing the business when he takes money for podcasts/documentaries.


I think Cornette's justification for this is kayfabe has been dead and buried for decades now, so speaking about the inner workings of wrestling on the Experience or Drive-Thru does nothing to damage the current product. Also, "exposing" the business (if you can even call it that) on a podcast, the audience of which is made up entirely of smart fans, is drastically different than exposing the business on a televised wrestling program.


----------



## MontyCora (Aug 31, 2016)

Chip Chipperson said:


> Interestingly enough the poll is now almost 50-50. Jericho is right on 57 votes and Cornette is right on 46...


It's adorable that you didn't comment on this for the first eleven pages until it started to sort of kind of look like validation of your opinion if you squint.

Stop looking to random interest polls from strangers to validate what you think and feel. You're tip toeing with your opinions. You need to fucking strut.


----------



## Cult03 (Oct 31, 2016)

MontyCora said:


> It's adorable that you didn't comment on this for the first eleven pages until it started to sort of kind of look like validation of your opinion if you squint.
> 
> Stop looking to random interest polls from strangers to validate what you think and feel. You're tip toeing with your opinions. You need to fucking strut.


Isn't this what AEW fans do in the Ratings thread? They validate their opinions about Orange Cassidy and Marko Stunt by the fact that other people watch them as well, instead of what is actually considered entertaining to the masses. It's adorable that you have never said this in that thread.


----------



## El Hammerstone (Jan 11, 2020)

Cult03 said:


> Isn't this what AEW fans do in the Ratings thread? They validate their opinions about Orange Cassidy and Marko Stunt by the fact that other people watch them as well, instead of what is actually considered entertaining to the masses. It's adorable that you have never said this in that thread.


It's odd that the ratings are apparently so important to those who have already conceded defeat for the industry and have passed it off as just a fad.


----------



## Cult03 (Oct 31, 2016)

Chip Chipperson said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1268945172513030147
> Tony Khan says wrestling for him back in the day was cringeworthy and AEW isn't about that life...I wonder how he explains Stadium Stampede though


Lol this doesn't explain The Dark Order, Ortiz, The Best Friends, Janela, Omega on the mic, The Librarians, Stunt, Matt Hardy, Nakazawa and that entire Shawn Spears DON thing either. This is all cringeworthy shit that I'd be embarrassed to show my friends. Why is it different to what WWE has ever done?


----------



## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

MontyCora said:


> It's adorable that you didn't comment on this for the first eleven pages until it started to sort of kind of look like validation of your opinion if you squint.
> 
> Stop looking to random interest polls from strangers to validate what you think and feel. You're tip toeing with your opinions. You need to fucking strut.


I actually commented on the numbers back on page 5 when it was 66-34. I've included the post below:



Chip Chipperson said:


> Hello my friend.
> 
> I believe I set the poll for 7 days so in a few days we'll have a definitive response. To be honest I never expected that the Cornette answer would win because it goes against AEW being awesome but I'm happy that serious wrestling has at least 34% of the vote. Keep in mind we achieved this without Cult03 who is currently suspended from the forum (And he would vote for serious wrestling also I'm sure) and a fair few people have voted they're cool with it but then commented that they'd have probably voted in the middle if the option was available (My bad, fam)
> 
> Successful for The Elite but not resounding.


I'm surprised at how close it actually is. The forum kind of paints the serious wrestling guys as just Lheurch, me, Wood, Cult, Bdon and Hammerstone but it seems many more would like AEW to be serious.



Cult03 said:


> Lol this doesn't explain The Dark Order, Ortiz, The Best Friends, Janela, Omega on the mic, The Librarians, Stunt, Matt Hardy, Nakazawa and that entire Shawn Spears DON thing either. This is all cringeworthy shit that I'd be embarrassed to show my friends. Why is it different to what WWE has ever done?


That's why I thought his post was so funny. I'd be embarrassed to show my friends AEW.

"Hey mate, wanna come over and watch the guy with his hands in his pockets fight Jericho?"


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

I'd have expected way more of a landslide for Jericho, honestly. This is a good way of highlighting how the silly stuff does turn people off, but you don't always hear about it if you live in an echo chamber of fans who constantly tell you "This is great!" Can only members vote? I'd imagine so given the amount of traffic these forums get. It also highlights that a lot of people want to at least keep tabs of the product without being engaged by it fully yet.


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

I voted for Jericho, because for the most part, the match was enjoyable. My biggest beef was the Matt Hardy BS; the 100-yard suplex and challenge flag replay by Jericho while annoying, I could overlook it.

I imagine a lot of people voted like this, forced to go one way or the other while seeing the other side of the coin.


----------



## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

bdon said:


> I voted for Jericho, because for the most part, the match was enjoyable. My biggest beef was the Matt Hardy BS; the 100-yard suplex and challenge flag replay by Jericho while annoying, I could overlook it.
> 
> I imagine a lot of people voted like this, forced to go one way or the other while seeing the other side of the coin.


Yeah, that's my bad I didn't think to provide a middle ground option.


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

Chip Chipperson said:


> Yeah, that's my bad I didn't think to provide a middle ground option.


No, I didn’t mean to shit on your poll Hah.

I just think the poll being so close is most likely due to voters like myself being torn. I could have easily voted for Cornette on the back of Matt Hardy.


----------



## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

bdon said:


> No, I didn’t mean to shit on your poll Hah.
> 
> I just think the poll being so close is most likely due to voters like myself being torn. I could have easily voted for Cornette on the back of Matt Hardy.


Yeah, I do agree that it'd probably be a closer 50/50 split if there was a middle ground. Although the middle ground is hard to explain as well.


----------



## MontyCora (Aug 31, 2016)

This thread has taught me that the Stadium Stampede match is the greatest of all time.


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

Lmfao


----------



## MontyCora (Aug 31, 2016)

13 pages. 13 pages about ONE SINGLE MATCH!

That's money right there.


----------



## Cult03 (Oct 31, 2016)

MontyCora said:


> 13 pages. 13 pages about ONE SINGLE MATCH!
> 
> That's money right there.


How much money does this forum make for AEW? I'm not sure if you understand how this stuff works..


----------



## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

MontyCora said:


> 13 pages. 13 pages about ONE SINGLE MATCH!
> 
> That's money right there.


Money where 46.4% of the vote says it's horrible and has no place in wrestling whilst at least 5-6 other people say "I would've liked an option for middle ground because I didn't like the match but do like comedy in wrestling"

Yeah, AEW must be killing it.


----------



## MontyCora (Aug 31, 2016)

Chip Chipperson said:


> Money where 46.4% of the vote says it's horrible and has no place in wrestling whilst at least 5-6 other people say "I would've liked an option for middle ground because I didn't like the match but do like comedy in wrestling"
> 
> Yeah, AEW must be killing it.


Literally every single person who voted bought the PPV.

Unless you're a filthy pirating little thief. You're not a criminal, are you Chip? You gave AEW your money... Right?


----------



## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

MontyCora said:


> Literally every single person who voted bought the PPV.
> 
> Unless you're a filthy pirating little thief. You're not a criminal, are you Chip? You gave AEW your money... Right?


Yeah, I paid for it because it's quite cheap here in Australia. I regretted it afterwards though. I was expecting Stadium Stampede to be an old school arena brawl in a stadium setting. You know, guys being thrown head first into goal posts, piledriver into the seats, out of control brawl in the concession stand etc etc. I wasn't expecting Hardy to be drowning younger talents and the other idiocy that ensued.

Stadium Stampede the idea of it was a draw for me. I would never buy a PPV based simply on the promise of Stadium Stampede ever again though.


----------



## MontyCora (Aug 31, 2016)

Chip Chipperson said:


> Yeah, I paid for it because it's quite cheap here in Australia. I regretted it afterwards though. I was expecting Stadium Stampede to be an old school arena brawl in a stadium setting. You know, guys being thrown head first into goal posts, piledriver into the seats, out of control brawl in the concession stand etc etc. I wasn't expecting Hardy to be drowning younger talents and the other idiocy that ensued.
> 
> Stadium Stampede the idea of it was a draw for me. I would never buy a PPV based simply on the promise of Stadium Stampede ever again though.


Why would you expect that Chip??

It's been MONTHS. Why the FUCK would you think that? You've had PLENTY of weeks of context to know that this current Jericho Inner Circle Matt Hardy Elite program is silliness. LOTS AND LOTS AND LOTS of context.

You had absolutely no reason to believe it was going to be a hardcore old school brawl. This is unforgivably on you. This is like going to an Italian restaurant and being FURIOUS that they won't serve you a steak. You look like a fool, not the restaurant.

This just reminds me of that goofy thread where that guy said Sammy looks like an idiot and that's a bad thing. I can't believe you actually have people watching television WRONG, but it happens consistently.


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

The Street Fight was not silliness. It was very good. There were a couple moments of comedy, but it was nothing egregious.

Matt Hardy took a shit on everyone in the Stampede, though, and Jericho acted as if he was not one to be outdone.


----------



## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

MontyCora said:


> Why would you expect that Chip??
> 
> It's been MONTHS. Why the FUCK would you think that? You've had PLENTY of weeks of context to know that this current Jericho Inner Circle Matt Hardy Elite program is silliness. LOTS AND LOTS AND LOTS of context.
> 
> ...


Well, I saw the street fight a week or two prior on TV and really enjoyed it. Yeah, it had some comedy bullshit but it wasn't enough to really hurt the match. It reminded me of a classic ECW style brawl where they'd go through the seats, out of the arena, brawl back in etc. I assumed (Perhaps wrongfully, I agree) that Stadium Stampede would be similar. I was expecting comedy but not so much that it'd hurt the match and I was really into the idea of seeing some crazy spots, some bleeding, guys brawling around the stadium taking it entirely too far as a referee or two try to maintain order. This is how I like blood feuds to end so I thought we'd get a big feud ender where comedy is thrown out the window or minimised.

Yeah the Jericho Vs Hardy feud was very silly at points but The Elite Vs The Inner Circle wasn't really a feud riddled with comedy at least in the past and they were meant to end their feud in some big bloody match so I thought this would be a replacement for that.

I was also keen on MJF/Jungle Boy (Which delivered), Cody/Archer (Which was alright but not great) and I figured Moxley/Brodie would be good fun also which it was.

So my thought process behind buying it was I'd get 4 good matches and the rest would probably be at least watchable. Instead I got 1 watchable, 2 good, one worst I've ever seen and the rest were pretty boring or average.


----------



## Wolf Mark (Jun 5, 2020)

Don't need to pirate it, it was basically free on You Tube the moment it ended. I don't know if AEW knew this but there it was. 

Now I didn't vote cause the positions were two extreme. Both choices were wrong that "This is what wrestling is meant to be in 2020". Nope. "This is match is stupid and has no place in 2020". well it was stupid but in a good way. I'm more going toward what Jericho said about "if you didn't like it you have no soul". Well not literally but I had a blast while watching all of it. And Corny calling it the worst abomination made him came off like the most humourless souless being ever. Hell I myself love realistic old school more than anything else. But isn't this possible to have fun too? A wrestling show can have everything in it, Lucha-type matches, mat wrestling, funny shit, hard knocks tough brawls, etc...It doesn't have to be one thing. And what I saw entertained me and I pull my hat off to them, to have achieved this with all the special effects required. 

Next time, they could do something like this but maybe more serious. Like for instance my favorite part was Hagar vs Page in the bar. It looked great, felt like a real dragged down bar fight with pro wrestling areals attached to it. Page looked like a Hollywood stuntman in there. They could do something like this but on a larger scale similar to Piper vs Goldust.


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## MontyCora (Aug 31, 2016)

Chip Chipperson said:


> Well, I saw the street fight a week or two prior on TV and really enjoyed it. Yeah, it had some comedy bullshit but it wasn't enough to really hurt the match. It reminded me of a classic ECW style brawl where they'd go through the seats, out of the arena, brawl back in etc. I assumed (Perhaps wrongfully, I agree) that Stadium Stampede would be similar. I was expecting comedy but not so much that it'd hurt the match and I was really into the idea of seeing some crazy spots, some bleeding, guys brawling around the stadium taking it entirely too far as a referee or two try to maintain order. This is how I like blood feuds to end so I thought we'd get a big feud ender where comedy is thrown out the window or minimised.
> 
> Yeah the Jericho Vs Hardy feud was very silly at points but The Elite Vs The Inner Circle wasn't really a feud riddled with comedy at least in the past and they were meant to end their feud in some big bloody match so I thought this would be a replacement for that.
> 
> ...


So basically your point is, "Yeah there has been comedy, but I've willfully ignored it." 

So this is entirely your own fault, and not AEW's. 

Got it!


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## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

MontyCora said:


> So basically your point is, "Yeah there has been comedy, but I've willfully ignored it."
> 
> So this is entirely your own fault, and not AEW's.
> 
> Got it!


Moreso I thought they'd have the brains to end a blood feud in a serious way rather than giving us the serious match for free on TV.

It is my fault though for expecting AEW to be good and deliver when they barely ever do.


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## MontyCora (Aug 31, 2016)

Chip Chipperson said:


> Moreso I thought they'd have the brains to end a blood feud in a serious way rather than giving us the serious match for free on TV.
> 
> It is my fault though for expecting AEW to be good and deliver when they barely ever do.


It was good. It was extremely entertaining and satisfying to see the bully heels get clowned and made a joke of. Like Loki getting plastered into the pavement by The Hulk.

But by all means, keep watching something you dislike, keep giving them your money and your engagement. Keep bitching about how much you hate it every single week nitpicking every little thing while continuing to give them your money.


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## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

MontyCora said:


> It was good. It was extremely entertaining and satisfying to see the bully heels get clowned and made a joke of. Like Loki getting plastered into the pavement by The Hulk.
> 
> But by all means, keep watching something you dislike, keep giving them your money and your engagement. Keep bitching about how much you hate it every single week nitpicking every little thing while continuing to give them your money.


Ah, that's harsh Monty. Thought we were mates.


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## MontyCora (Aug 31, 2016)

Chip Chipperson said:


> Ah, that's harsh Monty. Thought we were mates.


What's harsh?! That's literally the reality of what is going on with you. Don't get mad at me for observing what the facts are. Every post of yours is criticism, you know this.


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## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

MontyCora said:


> What's harsh?! That's literally the reality of what is going on with you. Don't get mad at me for observing what the facts are. Every post of yours is criticism, you know this.


Every topic here is negative lol. I did put Sammy over the other day about how good he is and did say I liked the Cage/Taz combination. Have put over The Revival thus far, didn't even shit on Cody/Jungle like multiple others did.

You can't expect me to come on here and lie, mate. Plus, you should be happy I purchased the PPV that's more money for AEW.


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## MontyCora (Aug 31, 2016)

Chip Chipperson said:


> Every topic here is negative lol. I did put Sammy over the other day about how good he is and did say I liked the Cage/Taz combination. Have put over The Revival thus far, didn't even shit on Cody/Jungle like multiple others did.
> 
> You can't expect me to come on here and lie, mate. Plus, you should be happy I purchased the PPV that's more money for AEW.


I'm not happy about anything. I'm told I have a negativity problem.


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## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

MontyCora said:


> I'm not happy about anything. I'm told I have a negativity problem.


haha! Then i suggest you don’t try and find happiness on these boards mate

its a hard drudge through this muck 

Chip, start a thread about something you like


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## DJ Punk (Sep 1, 2016)

The poll choices are dumb. This isn't exactly "what wrestling is meant to be", but it was a fun awesome match that I enjoyed and would love to see return in the future. Is this "what wrestling is meant to be"? Probably not. Does it have its place? You're damn right it does.


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## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

Chip Chipperson said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1268945172513030147
> Tony Khan says wrestling for him back in the day was cringeworthy and AEW isn't about that life...I wonder how he explains Stadium Stampede though


i’m glad about 2 things

1. Now i know you have twitter, so you have no excuse in not seeing the shoulder content and following the stories like that too

2. The responses to that tweet of his is 90% positive / and the 10% negative you can quickly see context just by having a little profile visit

which tweet is yours Chip 

(don’t make me go through all the negative tweets looking for an Aussie)


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## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

LifeInCattleClass said:


> i’m glad about 2 things
> 
> 1. Now i know you have twitter, so you have no excuse in not seeing the shoulder content and following the stories like that too
> 
> ...


I have a Twitter account but don't engage with it very often (Maybe a couple times a week?). I'm much more of a Facebook guy.

I didn't comment on the tweet but did see a shit ton of negativity. Maybe it's changed now.



LifeInCattleClass said:


> Chip, start a thread about something you like


Done


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## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

Chip Chipperson said:


> I have a Twitter account but don't engage with it very often (Maybe a couple times a week?). I'm much more of a Facebook guy.
> 
> I didn't comment on the tweet but did see a shit ton of negativity. Maybe it's changed now.
> 
> ...


haha! solid work!


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