# ROH's 10th Anniversay Show iPPV Discussion Thread



## Bubz

It would be a a bit silly to not do the anniversary show as a an ippv, but 3 in a month? Jesus. What are the others btw? I'm a bit out of the loop lol, haven't been on the ROH website since it changed.


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## Mr Joe Perfect

The wrestlemania weekend shows i assume are the others but i hope they don't oversaturate the ippv business as the have been declining in quality recently.


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## Neutronic

Anniversary the 4th

Two Miami Shows 30 and 31st

I think they are far enough apart for fans to buy at least 2

I wish they had the Miami shows in a package like last year

It was 2 for 20 dollars


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## TelkEvolon

It doesn't take much to turn a profit from IPPV.

So I'm all for getting as many as I can.

They are fairly spread out and FAR cheaper than a WWE or TNA PPV so I have no issue. I like to have more as an option to buy if you wanted.


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## The CRA1GER

I'd imagine that the Wrestlemania shows would be a package again. Plus, you can't beat a $9.99 iPPV.


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## TelkEvolon

> What memory will Ring of Honor's "10th Anniversary Show" leave indelibly etched into the memories of the ROH faithful? Only time will tell, but one thing we know for certain is that now every fan worldwide will be able to celebrate our anniversary with us. On Sunday March 4, the "10th Anniversary Show" will now be broadcast LIVE on iPPV via GoFightLive!
> 
> In honor of our first decade, we will also be offering this historic event to our great fans for the low price of only $9.99!
> 
> More details will come in the following weeks as we get closer to this huge anniversary event, but you can place your order for the iPPV broadcast right now on GFL!
> 
> Don't forget, tickets are still available for purchase for those fans who can attend the "10th Anniversary Show" live and in-person. Get those right here in the ROH Store!


SHould be an awesome moment and it's a great price.


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## Corey

And the announcement is made. Thought the graphic was pretty cool too.










And you guys are right, $9.99 is a hell of a price. If they make the Miami shows a package again(which they really should) then I'll definitely be buying all 3.

Can a mod change my title to make this the official discussion thread too? Thanks.


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## seabs

*Meh I hate them doing a bunch of iPPVs in a short space of time, especially with the current roster. Last year's anniversary show started the decline in iPPVs because they were doing too many with insufficient build. I'm more hopeful this year though because you'd imagine either this or the Mania shows would have international talent on.*


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## Zatiel

Drop a dime to NOAH, and suddenly three PPVs in that short a span sound appealing to me. Mighty appealing of the right people show up.


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## Bubz

Holy shit at that price! £6.50!!! Theres no way I'm not getting that.

Also hope they announce some stuff for these march shows soon to get people excited.


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## Meteora2004

Fuck waiting until Miami. Now they have a reason to do Steen vs. Richards for this show. Win or lose, Steen needs to leave with the belt.


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## smitlick

Meteora2004 said:


> Fuck waiting until Miami. Now they have a reason to do Steen vs. Richards for this show. Win or lose, Steen needs to leave with the belt.


Why would they rush the biggest angle they have?


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## Meteora2004

Purely selfish reasons, lol. At the very least, I'd like to see Steen take the belt hostage going into the WM shows and taunt Davey with it.

Who do you guys think Davey will defend against? Is there where Elgin takes his shot?


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## FITZ

smitlick said:


> Why would they rush the biggest angle they have?


In this case I don't think Steen getting the belt is the big angle. Steen having the title and holding the company hostage is the angle that I think they should be running. I mean right now Generico is hurt. I think it's safe to say that Generico will come back and when he does he's going for Steen. Steen shouldn't be chasing the title and feuding with Generico at the same time. A dominant Kevin Steen as champion with Generico chasing his title is where I think this is going. 

Steen should win the title in New York and not for selfish reasons. Just about every single significant part of this angle has happened in New York. It's the biggest market and if Steen is winning the title that's where he should do it.


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## Corey

I say Davey retains in the main event against an outside talent (possibly KENTA) and then Steen makes a run in, drops Davey with a package piledriver and leaves with the belt, sending everyone home happy.


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## EmbassyForever

Steen-Jacobs (w/Corino) in a FWH.
Davey-Elgin.
Eddie and Cole-Briscoes.


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## Bubz

I think Elgin should get his shot at the Mania shows. I'd also like Hero to get his yearly title shot at one of the shows, but I'd just hope they wrestle like they did in PWG in 2010 and not how they did in ROH last year.


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## seabs

*Hero's only in for the January shows before he has more medicals for WWE.*


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## Matt_Yoda

$9.99 for an iPPV is a hell of a deal. I hope that for this show they consider brining in some blasts from the past. I like to think of the anniversary shows as nostalgia shows, maybe bring in Low-Ki, Daniels, Rave, Evans and some more guys. I kind of wish the show was taking place in Philly to bring it all back around if you will. Anyways, should be a solid card.


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## Corey

The first match has been announced:


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## jawbreaker

whether or not this is any fun will depend on whether the Briscoes sell for the Bucks. historically, they haven't, and the matches haven't been fun.


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## Neutronic

jawbreaker said:


> whether or not this is any fun will depend on whether the Briscoes sell for the Bucks. historically, they haven't, and the matches haven't been fun.


Go watch their GLory by Honor match

Was good


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## jawbreaker

no it wasn't

even in PWG the Briscoes and Bucks haven't had very good matches, and it's because the quality of the Bucks' matches depends on them having long, ridiculous control segments and the opponents making big hot tags and then the Bucks bumping ridiculously for a bit before a crazy finishing stretch.

the quality of the Briscoes' matches since 2009 depends on them either letting their opponents have long control segments and selling them (vs. Kings at DBD 8) or them having the control segments themselves against an underdog babyface team (vs. Future Shock and ANX in Atlanta).

the Bucks aren't very interesting babyfaces and the Briscoes are notoriously bad at letting their opponents have interesting control segments. that's why I was legitimately shocked at how good Kings-Briscoes at DBD was, because I'd never seen the post-09 Briscoes make their opponents look good before.


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## Neutronic

You've never seen the Briscoes make their opponents look good? past 09?

v. Future Shock in Atlanta?

Hell, they made ANX in their feud with them (although Rhett's injury halted their momentum)

v. ANX in the Street Fight and DBD.

Hell the best match of their series together was in Atlanta with Jay and Rhett bleeding like stuffed pigs.

The Briscoes even gave the Bravados offense in their two matches


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## jawbreaker

read my post again. I mentioned both of those as examples of good Briscoes matches. but up until that second KOW match they hadn't had a good one since Mark came back from injury sometime in 2009.

and even in the ANX feud, they never really made the ANX look good. they got the big win at DBD, I guess, but then right after that the Briscoes beat them clean on TV. none of the matches after Atlanta did much for the ANX, really.


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## Chismo

*Corino & Jacobs vs. Steen & Whitmer* in a Happy Anniversary Street Fight. Book it, Cornette!


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## Corey

^ I can't even describe how balls awesome that sounds.


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## Scavo

JoeRulz said:


> *Corino & Jacobs vs. Steen & Whitmer* in a Happy Anniversary Street Fight. Book it, Cornette!










:mark: It'd be insane.


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## EmbassyForever

*ROH "10th Anniversary" iPPV Card*










ROH World Tag Team Championship
Jay & Mark Briscoe defend against the Young Bucks

TV Title Champishiop
Jay Lethal defend against Tommasso Ciampa

and more..


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## McQueen

*Re: ROH "10th Anniversary" iPPV Card*

That logo looks awful.


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## rodzilla

*Re: ROH "10th Anniversary" iPPV Card*

Will be ordering this.


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## Mr mittens

*Re: ROH "10th Anniversary" iPPV Card*

First two matches look good

Very glad that they're doing Lethal and Ciampa


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## ViolenceIsGolden

*Re: ROH "10th Anniversary" iPPV Card*

As of right now Davey Richards will be defending the ROH world championship against Kevin Steen in the main event.


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## TelkEvolon

*Re: ROH "10th Anniversary" iPPV Card*



ViolenceIsGolden said:


> As of right now Davey Richards will be defending the ROH world championship against Kevin Steen in the main event.


That would make me order it.

Some great moment would come out of that.


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## THECHAMPION

*Re: ROH "10th Anniversary" iPPV Card*

What? I thought the main event was gonna be Davey and O'Reilly vs. Cole and Edwards?

This is important. I'm buying myself a ticket if it's Steen/Richards. It'll take a solid card around it to get me to go to that tag match as a main event.


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## Corey

*Re: ROH "10th Anniversary" iPPV Card*

I'm sure everyone's forgot cause it hasn't been replied to in a while, but the show already has a thread:
http://www.wrestlingforum.com/other...h-anniversay-show-ippv-discussion-thread.html

But yeah, not sure where he's gettin the Steen/Davey info from. Also didn't know Lethal/Ciampa was even announced?


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## EmbassyForever

*Re: ROH "10th Anniversary" iPPV Card*

In the last ROH episode, they announced the match there.


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## KingCrash

*Re: ROH "10th Anniversary" iPPV Card*

No clue on the info about Steen/Davey, wasn't on the show this week. Little surprised they didn't do Strong/Lethal instead of Ciampa/Lethal.

And the Briscoes getting everyone to yell "Five Thousand Dollars!" was fantastic.


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## Last Chancery

*Re: ROH "10th Anniversary" iPPV Card*

If it's Davey and Steen, Davey will retain simply because a heel Steen versus a heel Elgin (who should be receiving his shot soon enough) probably wouldn't work. Unless they're going to make Steen the face after he nabs the title. I don't know, I see Davey holding it till the summer at least. Hopefully they're doing the title match and not that tag match.


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## Scavo

*Re: ROH "10th Anniversary" iPPV Card*

*Briscoes/Bucks* shuold be excellent, I love both teams and their gimmicks are phenomenal. DemBoys to retain, though.

*Lethal/Ciampa*.... Meh, solid but nothing more. Hopefully Ciampa wins it.


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## TelkEvolon

*Re: ROH "10th Anniversary" iPPV Card*



Last Chancery said:


> If it's Davey and Steen, Davey will retain simply because a heel Steen versus a heel Elgin (who should be receiving his shot soon enough) probably wouldn't work. Unless they're going to make Steen the face after he nabs the title. I don't know, I see Davey holding it till the summer at least. Hopefully they're doing the title match and not that tag match.


Steen vs Elgin has needed to happen since BitW 2011 when they has a tiny brawl.

No reason at all why it wouldn't work.

1. Steen is a face. (even if he kills a dog in the middle of the ring)

2. It's Steen vs ROH, heels & faces Steen doesn't care.


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## Corey

Main event is officially announced:










If this actually will main event, they need to give us something big underneath it. Steen/Jacobs Cage match? Lethal/Ciampa is apparently already happening.


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## SHIRLEY

*Re: ROH "10th Anniversary" iPPV Card*

Apparently this show is now called '10th Anniversary Show: Young Wolves Rising'. The theme is even more of a mess than it was before.

Plus, someone needs to tell Delirious to stop mixing his metaphors. Wolves don't rise. Bad moons do - yes. The standard of show names has dropped drastically, since they stopped letting the fans name them. 

Someone should make an ROH show name generator.


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## Manu_Styles

*Re: ROH "10th Anniversary" iPPV Card*

ROH pushing new talent into the Maint Event awesome!


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## Chismo

This is disgrace. This is their main event for the 10th Anniversary event, LMAO. It will probably be a great match, but you know what I'm talking about.


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## Manu_Styles

This is the final poster:


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## Corey

The problem with that poster is if it didn't have the text on it, I'm sure 90% of people would see it being The Wolves vs. Future Shock and not mixed partners.


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## Chismo

Cole looks like Ziggy from The Wire.


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## Manu_Styles

The final lines in the announcement: ROH has always been known to give the new blood the opportunity to rise to the occasion and the 10th Anniversary is no exception. This is what ROH is all about: Young Wolves Rising.


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## topper1

*Re: ROH "10th Anniversary" iPPV Card*



Manu_Styles said:


> ROH pushing new talent into the Maint Event awesome!


Not so awesome on a major show in a random tag match.


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## Manu_Styles

*Re: ROH "10th Anniversary" iPPV Card*



topper1 said:


> Not so awesome on a major show in a random tag match.


Its no random they build this match for months, since the FutureShock vs American Wolwes tag match


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## Bubz

*Re: ROH "10th Anniversary" iPPV Card*



Shirley Crabtree III said:


> *Apparently this show is now called '10th Anniversary Show: Young Wolves Rising'.* The theme is even more of a mess than it was before.
> 
> Plus, someone needs to tell Delirious to stop mixing his metaphors. Wolves don't rise. Bad moons do - yes. The standard of show names has dropped drastically, since they stopped letting the fans name them.
> 
> Someone should make an ROH show name generator.


Jesus fucking christ.


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## topper1

*Re: ROH "10th Anniversary" iPPV Card*



Manu_Styles said:


> Its no random they build this match for months, since the FutureShock vs American Wolwes tag match


Its a random match that should have been the main event of one of there weekly tv shows.


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## ViolenceIsGolden

*Re: ROH "10th Anniversary" iPPV Card*

The main event is actually gonna be Davey Richards and Kyle O'Reilly vs. Eddie Edwards and Adam Cole.


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## Concrete

*Re: ROH "10th Anniversary" iPPV Card*

I'm fine with this main eventing a show with less significance but it kind of just dampens the fact that this is a milestone event for the company. The main event should be the biggest possible. I like the idea of pushing talent but I'm not sure if this was the show to do that. It doesn't come off like "They are going to be the next big ROH stars cause this is ROH's biggest show." It comes off like the event as whole is less important than it should be.


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## downgrader

Because when I think future main eventer that's gonna sell tickets and bring in a new audience, I think of the charismatic gem that is Kyle O'Reilly.


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## downgrader

*Re: ROH "10th Anniversary" iPPV Card*

Negative buys. I would need to be paid to watch this current product that ROH is having the audacity to claim as the best pro wrestling product in the world.


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## musdy

*Re: ROH "10th Anniversary" iPPV Card*

Weak main event for an Anniversary show.


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## McQueen

*Re: ROH "10th Anniversary" iPPV Card*



enlightenedone9 said:


> I'm fine with this main eventing a show with less significance but it kind of just dampens the fact that this is a milestone event for the company. The main event should be the biggest possible. I like the idea of pushing talent but I'm not sure if this was the show to do that. It doesn't come off like "They are going to be the next big ROH stars cause this is ROH's biggest show." It comes off like the event as whole is less important than it should be.


Agreed. I understand wanting to push some young guys into the Main Event but this isn't the event to do it. That would be like having a Wrestlemania Main Event of Cody Rhodes & Daniel Bryan going on after Rock/Cena & HHH/Taker. Even though it would probably be a pretty good match thats just a poor booking decision.


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## Tarfu

*Re: ROH "10th Anniversary" iPPV Card*



Shirley Crabtree III said:


> Apparently this show is now called '10th Anniversary Show: Young Wolves Rising'


Shades of "Death Before Dishonor: Legends Edition"

Hope they quietly drop this one as well. Shit's just not meant to exist.


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## KingCrash

*Re: ROH "10th Anniversary" iPPV Card*

I though (and hope) that Young Wolves Rising was just the label they were sticking on this match. 

And while it will be a solid main event, it shouldn't be the main event for the 10th Anniversary Show. And yeah they're pushing Cole & O'Reilly to the main event for at least one show but maybe it would mean more if FutureShock actually got a couple of big wins and they weren't seen as Davey's nut-licking sidekick and 0-for-fovever Cole.


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## TelkEvolon

downgrader said:


> Because when I think future main eventer that's gonna sell tickets and bring in a new audience, I think of the charismatic gem that is Kyle O'Reilly.


I think you are thinking about it all wrong.... And being a douchebag.


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## downgrader

TelkEvolon said:


> I think you are thinking about it all wrong....


Feel free to explain. This product is freaking lame nowadays, and makes Gabe's worst times in ROH look like NWA 1989 or WWF 2000 in comparison.



> And being a douchebag.


Petty personal insults is relavant to this discussion... how?


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## Last Chancery

downgrader said:


> Feel free to explain. This product is freaking lame nowadays, and makes Gabe's worst times in ROH look like NWA 1989 or WWF 2000 in comparison.
> 
> 
> 
> Petty personal insults is relavant to this discussion... how?


Whoa, cheap shot at 2000 WWF. The first half of that year was fairly solid, friend, I want you to take that back and bite your tongue this instant!

I hate this match idea, though, honestly, and it will make me less likely, if at all, to buy the iPPV. I don't care about Davey, Eddie or Kyle for the most part, although I do see potential in Kyle and Cole, together and separately. But for the 10th Anniversary? No. Davey should be defending his title. I think an outside name or two should be flown in for the show, as well. Just not feeling this. I still am relatively new to ROH, having started watching during Roddy's title reign, but that was still better than... this. I think the TV show is quickly harming the overall product, because the product sure has suffered since they started doing the tapings back in the summer. Blah.


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## Chismo

> and makes Gabe's worst times in ROH look like NWA 1989


You know, 1989 was not that great year for NWA. It's just that everybody is delusional because of Ric Flair being GOD that year.


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## seabs

JoeRulz said:


> You know, 1989 was not that great year for NWA. It's just that everybody is delusional because of Ric Flair being GOD that year.


*89 was a very below par year outside of Flair's year.*


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## Manu_Styles

The anniversary shows have never been treated like huge shows, always been more about memories and tribute to the company. Title defense or not is regardless.


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## downgrader

JoeRulz said:


> You know, 1989 was not that great year for NWA. It's just that everybody is delusional because of Ric Flair being GOD that year.


So were Funk, Luger, Pillman, and Steamboat.


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## Concrete

I just want ROH to go and bust out some crazy match to really kick things up a notch. The two title matches sounds decent. The Main Event sounds like it will be awesome despite the disappointment in the weight of the match for the 10th Anniversary. If the main event was a solid match-up and meaningful then another really good match would put it at a buy for me. But being things are how they are I would like a real meaningful match and a crazy awesome match. A Steen vs Jacobs match would fit at least one of these depending on a possible stip. I just ROH to kick things up a notch for such a big show. I know they got it in them.


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## Bubz

Manu_Styles said:


> *The anniversary shows have never been treated like huge shows,* always been more about memories and tribute to the company. Title defense or not is regardless.


Of course they have.


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## EffectRaven

I think that everyone is being a little over dramatic about the main event. I don't like it either myself and would have saved this match for TV or maybe one of the nights of Showdown in the Sun but it's not awful. Should still be a really good match. The main event of the 10th Anniversary should probably have been a huge title match but we'll live especially with a huge double shot less than a month later

Also it's not like the match is insignificant either. This is an angle they've been building for months and revolves around two of the company's biggest stars and two of the company's biggest rising stars, and one of the guys involved happens to be the world champ. It's not like this match was just thrown together

The rest of the card on the other hand is looking great in my opinion. The Briscoes vs. The Young Bucks should be a great match and has the potential to steal the show. Lethal vs. Ciampa is a match-up I've been dying to see, you have the unbeaten beast Tomasso Ciampa taking on the resilient TV champion, should be great.

This is shaping up to be a great event


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## TelkEvolon

downgrader said:


> Feel free to explain. This product is freaking lame nowadays, and makes Gabe's worst times in ROH look like NWA 1989 or WWF 2000 in comparison.
> 
> 
> 
> Petty personal insults is relavant to this discussion... how?



Because O'Reilly isn't meant to be some big money draw or charasmatic enigma, he isn't being pushed or marketed as it. He would play a Roderick Strong type of roll for the guys to play off of and look great in the ring with while remaining a legit threat.

And that insult was a reaction to what you said and how you said it. It was a relevant as the nonsense you decided to speak, which turns out to not be relevant at all. Since you may as well be complaining about O'Reilly's lack of ability to wrestle a deathmatch, because that's not what ROH wants from him.

O'Reilly will be a "solid" in ROH's future.


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## Manu_Styles

Bubz said:


> Of course they have.


Ok let´s say 07,08 & 09, the rest of the years?


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## downgrader

O'Reilly is being featured in a prominent matchup as if he's really worth that at all. He isn't.

Keep the personal insults out of this. I'm insulting the product because they've earned it by being dull, not you.


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## jawbreaker

Manu_Styles said:


> Ok let´s say 07,08 & 09, the rest of the years?


03, 05, 06 were all really big shows. 04 too to some extent.


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## FITZ

If they want to keep this Eddie/Davey thing going any longer somebody desperately needs to turn heel. If the main event ends with everyone shaking hands and hugging it would be a major let down. Right now the match doesn't seem important but they can make it mean a lot in the long run if it takes the feud to a new level.


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## Manu_Styles

jawbreaker said:


> 03, 05, 06 were all really big shows. 04 too to some extent.


I forgot about 05, this year was good too. 03 and 06 in my opinion didn´t had huge lineups.


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## jawbreaker

03 was about as big as they could do at the time. Danielson/Joe, Corino/Homicide, Ki/Styles/London, London/Xavier. 06 wasn't as huge as 05 and 07 but it was the start of the Milestone Series which meant it was a really big deal regardless.


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## Manu_Styles

jawbreaker said:


> 03 was about as big as they could do at the time. Danielson/Joe, Corino/Homicide, Ki/Styles/London, London/Xavier. 06 wasn't as huge as 05 and 07 but it was the start of the Milestone Series which meant it was a really big deal regardless.


I agree with that, but we don´t know the repercussion of the tag match yet, let´s wait and see first. ROH had build this match for months, they giving O´Reilly & Cole a unique opportunity to shine, the ROH World Title isn´t on the line? Yes, but we will have 2 title defenses in the next iPPV.


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## jawbreaker

I'd honestly much rather Cole be in the main event in some capacity than just about any non-Cole matches ROH could throw out there. I don't really have a problem with the match taking place. What problems I do have are basically the poor booking up to this point and my lack of faith that this match will be booked in an interesting way.


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## SeanWrestling

jawbreaker said:


> I'd honestly much rather Cole be in the main event in some capacity than just about any non-Cole matches ROH could throw out there. I don't really have a problem with the match taking place. What problems I do have are basically the poor booking up to this point and my lack of faith that this match will be booked in an interesting way.


Since I'm siding with Cole and Edwards in this thing, I'm hoping ROH let "ColeWards" win with Cole pinning Davey.I don't like how Cole has been eating the pin in most of the matches he's been in the past few months so pinning the World champ would be huge for him.


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## FITZ

SeanWrestling said:


> Since I'm siding with Cole and Edwards in this thing, I'm hoping ROH let "ColeWards" win with Cole pinning Davey.I don't like how Cole has been eating the pin in most of the matches he's been in the past few months so pinning the World champ would be huge for him.


I hope ROH does this. They have the chance to literally make a star overnight if they want to. He could be one of the top heels if he cheats to get the pin.


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## KingCrash

Based on the tv and the way he's been acting I'd say that it's more likely O'Reilly cheats to get the pin on Eddie but it should be Cole/O'Reilly getting a pin on Davey/Eddie. Of course I half expect them to just have Davey submit Cole and move on to the Florida shows.


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## SeanWrestling

My two cents on this whole show (contains a spoiler): I think this show needs to be treated as one of their biggest shows ever.It's celebrating the big 1-0 which is big for an indy company.I think it needs to be a bit of a nostalgia show with as many ROH vets showing up as possible and so far...I'm disapointed with the matches they announced.This show needs to be made up of mostly fresh and first time ever matches and one of the matches just happened 4 months ago at GBH and another, 1 month ago.Now I don't really mind Briscoes/Bucks as that should be great but I would rather Strong got his tv title shot instead of Ciampa.I know that match just happened at GBH too but it'll still be a bigger match than Lethal/Ciampa and this show needs as many big matches as it can get.Now onto the "main event".My biggest problem with it is I feel they're rushing this match.I mean this is going to be Edwards and Cole first match as a team and they're already fighting Team Ambition?Atleast Team Ambition got a few matches as a team under their belt.ROH should wait a few months and let Edwards and Cole gain some experience as a team first.Maybe even give them a tag title shot before having them fight T.A.Besides that, I think Davey needs to be defending his title.I think the main event for the first night of WM weekend should be the main event of this show instead and that's Strong v. Edwards v. Davey.Overall this show is shaping up in a disapointing way.They GOTTA come hard with the next few matches.I mean REALLY hard.I'm hoping they announce some ROH vets to wrestle.It can be ones that have showed up recently like Rave, Whitmer, and Homicide.And Jacobs and Corino better be there too.I still don't understand why they only use Jacobs every once in a while.


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## jawbreaker

KingCrash said:


> Based on the tv and the way he's been acting I'd say that it's more likely O'Reilly cheats to get the pin on Eddie but it should be Cole/O'Reilly getting a pin on Davey/Eddie. Of course I half expect them to just have Davey submit Cole and move on to the Florida shows.


I'm almost positive that's exactly what will happen and that's why I'm not excited for this match at all.


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## Chismo

SeanWrestling said:


> Since I'm siding with Cole and Edwards in this thing, I'm hoping ROH let "ColeWards" win with Cole pinning Davey.I don't like how Cole has been eating the pin in most of the matches he's been in the past few months so pinning the World champ would be huge for him.


Yeah, not gonna happen, unfortunately. Even the bloody tag line says "Young Wolves Rising", and call me crazy but I don't think they meant Cole and Eddie when they came up with that. I say, O'Reilly pins Cole.


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## Manu_Styles

How about Edwards pinning/submitting Richards? With that you hype the 3 Way in the next iPPV


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## Corey

Fantasy Booking!!~~

Cole turns on Edwards and/or O'Reilly, sides with Steen and the show goes off the air with Team Richards laying in a pile of their own blood in which Steen is wiping on his face. Kevin Kelly is left in disgust.


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## Bubz

Cole turning heel and siding with Steen would be cool as.


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## Matt_Yoda

Isn't Davey already feuding with Edwards and the House of Truth? So then you would add Steen & Cole to that? I think they're going to go the obvious route of O'Reilly/Cole though for a heel turn and then give them a short midcard program probably.


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## Corey

Yeeeeeaaahhhhhh.


----------



## SeanWrestling

Jack Evans 187 said:


> Yeeeeeaaahhhhhh.


Yeah, finally a match that's actually worthy of taking place at the 10AS.


----------



## Matt_Yoda

I wasn't looking forward to Jacobs/Steen that much however Jacob's VW promo turned that around in a hurry. Hopefully the match is on equal base because ROH honestly has done next to nothing for Jacobs other than being used as fodder to Steen.

The more I think of Team Ambition vs. Eddie Edwards/Adam Cole the more it grows on me. Granted I would prefer to see the ROH Title defended on the 10th Anniversary of the promotion, but if ROH is serious about letting the newer guys step up, then I hope they go all out with it and open some eyes on March 4th. Looking at it for what it is, I think it'll be great matchup that has the potential to get over all 4 guys if done right imo.


----------



## Manu_Styles

https://www.rohwrestling.com/news/amazing-red-back










Amazing Red & TJ Perkins vs Roderick Strong & Michael Elgin


----------



## seabs

*That'll probably be a really good match but there's no reason to care for it. I really hope Red isn't the sole alumni they use to celebrate the anniversary. *


----------



## Manu_Styles

Seabs said:


> *That'll probably be a really good match but there's no reason to care for it. I really hope Red isn't the sole alumni they use to celebrate the anniversary. *


Is a ROH pioneer coming back, you don´t need more hype for this match.


----------



## Matt_Yoda

A-Red & TJP on the same squad against HoT no less, can't go wrong with 4 strong workers in my book, should make for a great match.

I'm" surprised that ROH hasn't reached out to Homicide, London, Kendrick, Colt Cabana, Tony & Sal, Jimmy Rave or Jack Evans. None of these guys are with Gabe, and with the exception of Kendrick (who is signed to TNA) and Evans (who is signed to AAA) they could've invited one of them back for a one off appearance.


----------



## SHIRLEY

Cool. Red brings something unique to the table. Should work well with Elgin.

As far as alumni go, I would have liked to have seen a Tag Team run a mystery gauntlet of...something like...Christopher Street Connection, Carnage Crew and Havana Pitbulls.


----------



## Neutronic

Seabs said:


> *That'll probably be a really good match but there's no reason to care for it. *


Doesn't that describe the majority of PWG matches?

It says in the newswire it's just a match with 4 guys giving the best match they can put on

No grudges.


----------



## Concrete

Now if they added a stipulation to the Steen vs. Jacobs matched I'd be real pumped. As that match is though I feel it will serve a purpose in the storyline. The match itself probably won't be epic in my eyes though. The return of Red makes me kinda excited. The match itself looks good but I would really like if they brought in one other name from their past to give this event a real boost.


----------



## KingCrash

I think Jacobs/Steen will be at the least relaxed rules but since the goal might be either to goad Corino into a loser-leaves-ROH match or to turn Jacobs to his side I do believe this won't be their last match. And HOT/Red & TJ while random should be good with Strong and Elgin great at killing fliers.


----------



## Corey

Holy shitbags that tag match should be awesome. There's a lot of damn tag matches on this show though, 3 already and I'm assuming a 4th with WGTT somewhere. Wouldn't mind seeing them bring back a team for that, although I have no idea who...


----------



## Neutronic

Jack Evans 187 said:


> Holy shitbags that tag match should be awesome. There's a lot of damn tag matches on this show though, 3 already and I'm assuming a 4th with WGTT somewhere. Wouldn't mind seeing them bring back a team for that, although I have no idea who...


I wonder what Special K is up to


----------



## EmbassyForever

Holly crap, sound like very fun match. Should be MOTN.


----------



## SeanWrestling

Believe it or not but I'm looking forward to the tag match the most.I was marking out with I saw this announced.TJP and Red is a dream tag team for me that I just never thought of.And with them going against Strong who works best with high flyers and Elgin who looks more like a beast the smaller his opponent(s) are, this match is going to be insane I promise.I hope they keep Red around though.It's not like he's doing anything else.And they can push Red and TJP as a tag team because I think the tag belts is as high as ROH would be willing to let TJP go which is a shame especially after he took Davey to his limit at SoCal Showdown 2.I also hope they bring in more vets for this show.This really needs to be a nostalgia show.Anyways, with this match and Jacobs/Steen announced, this card is starting to turn around for the better.I mean while the first 3 matches that were announced should be good-great, I just didn't feel they were 10AS worthy if you know what I mean.But yeah, whether this card looks big or not, there's not one match announced so far that's going to be bad.And I don't think there is going to be a match on this card that's going to be bad.All they have to do now is find a GREAT wrestler to work with Bennett and all the matches should be 3 stars and up.


----------



## smitlick

Matt_Yoda said:


> A-Red & TJP on the same squad against HoT no less, can't go wrong with 4 strong workers in my book, should make for a great match.
> 
> I'm" surprised that ROH hasn't reached out to Homicide, London, Kendrick, Colt Cabana, Tony & Sal, Jimmy Rave or Jack Evans. None of these guys are with Gabe, and with the exception of Kendrick (who is signed to TNA) and Evans (who is signed to AAA) they could've invited one of them back for a one off appearance.


Homicide is a possibility but they cant use him on anything other then iPPVs...
London doesnt work serious shows now 
Kendrick doesnt seem to care anymore
Cabana isnt wanted by ROH
Mamaluke would be cool, not sure how much Sal wrestles now though.
Rave is fine.
Evans will prioritise AAA first plus its not worth the flights and such.


----------



## Chismo

Steen/Jacobs doesn't need the stip for this match. This is only the first in their feud, so why rush it already? I have some feeling this might end at Final Battle: Steen(c) vs. Jacobs in a Fight Without Honor for the World Championship.



Manu_Styles said:


> https://www.rohwrestling.com/news/amazing-red-back
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amazing Red & TJ Perkins vs Roderick Strong & Michael Elgin


Hell fucking yeah! I love Red and Perkins, and no doubt they will work well with The HOT. 

Btw, The HOT is pulling the double duty? Will their match with The Briscoes be available on DVD?


----------



## Mr mittens

JoeRulz said:


> Btw, The HOT is pulling the double duty? Will their match with The Briscoes be available on DVD?


That match is happening the night before which will be a TV taping. At a guess they'll add this match as a bonus match to the 10th anniversary DVD release

The PPV as a whole looks good to me. Going to be ordering this for sure


----------



## Chismo

Mr mittens said:


> That match is happening the night before which will be a TV taping. At a guess they'll add this match as a bonus match to the 10th anniversary DVD release
> 
> The PPV as a whole looks good to me. Going to be ordering this for sure


Ah yeah, my bad. 

Yes, I'm ordering too. 10 bucks is a great fucking offer.


----------



## Matt_Yoda

smitlick said:


> Homicide is a possibility but they cant use him on anything other then iPPVs...
> London doesnt work serious shows now
> Kendrick doesnt seem to care anymore
> Cabana isnt wanted by ROH
> Mamaluke would be cool, not sure how much Sal wrestles now though.
> Rave is fine.
> Evans will prioritise AAA first plus its not worth the flights and such.


It looks dire when you put it that way, but surely a one off apperance for some of these guys wouldn't be too much to ask for. Its not like we're talking about bringing them in for an extended period.

Regardless, with or without the vets the show is shaping up very nice. Depending on the next matches announced (the obligatory Bennett and WGTT iPPV matches), we may be in for a fun show.


----------



## jawbreaker

Red being back for the first time in eight years is pretty cool. Didn't like the match he had with Strong in PWG but hopefully they let TJP carry most of the workload in this one.


----------



## Bubz

TJP vs Red sounds really fun even though I don't particularly like either of them.


----------



## Neutronic

Maria autograph signing in New York 

Also this little gem in the Newswire


> - In conjunction with our “Synergy” double header with CHIKARA on April 28th in Chicago Ridge, IL, Ring of Honor officials have extended an invitation to a few local CHIKARA athletes to attend the “10th Anniversary Event” at the Hammerstein Ballroom as backstage guests and spectators. *ROH officials received word that a certain CHIKARA champion wants to get a closer look at our ROH World Champion*. ROH officials have reached out to that individual to come and take a look for himself live and in person. Despite the heavy CHIKARA influence at the end of the Proving Ground tag bout at “Homecoming 2012”, ROH officials do not feel any tension with CHIKARA and commend the passion that the roster displayed that evening in Philadelphia. ROH respects the support and bond that the CHIKARA tecnico athletes have with one another but the ROH athletes would have done the same thing if the tables were turned. Both leagues have a passion for pro wrestling and are working together to solidify April 28th as a Pro Wrestling Holiday!


Kingston vs Davey? Yes please. I'll be amazed if people find a way to be unhappy about this.


----------



## EmbassyForever

Nooooo, Eddie Kingston, again?!!??! #THISSHITSUCKS


----------



## THECHAMPION

Eddie Kingston is one of few opponents for Davey I could be really interested in. Eddie will make sure there is selling in that match.

It's such bullshit that a pair of companies based out of the North East are doing this in Chicago.

I'm spoiled and wanna go but I'm not flying to Chicago for it.

Though I'd guess that it won't be Davey/Eddie straight up.

Something like King and Quack vs. Davey and O'Reilly maybe.


----------



## Neutronic

Can't see King and Quack teaming up after High Noon

Have Davey and Kingston and Steen/Kingston ever had a match?


----------



## Matt_Yoda

I'm" actually for Kingston vs. Davey, a unique clash of styles and if I'm" correct two guys who've never worked together before.


----------



## Neutronic

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6rbb4y_wRE

Not really an Anniversary promo but linking it here.

Team Jujitsu looks to be showing signs of a heel turn. Acting like real a-holes here.


Or maybe this is Davey's idea of a face promo.

Also Tony Kozina is awesome.


----------



## Corey

This was also in the newswire. Pretty much what you guys have been asking for:



> - ROH officials have a special meeting this weekend with one of the topics regarding “Wrestling’s Worst Nightmare” Kevin Steen vs. Jimmy Jacobs on March 4th in New York City. It is believed that this match could be very violent and it could potentially be cut short by ROH referees abiding by the standard rule regulations. ROH officials do not want to see this match end abruptly due to the aggressive nature of the situation and are contemplating a more relaxed set of rules for this bout.


----------



## Manu_Styles

Team Jujitsu look heelish in that promo i really don´t know when they are gonna turn maybe Toronto


----------



## TelkEvolon

Hooray!


----------



## nevereveragainu

so its come to this

From the best three way in wrestlings recent history to this already questionable card for a polically unstable promotion with not much of a future for us to look foward to


----------



## Last Chancery

nevereveragainu said:


> so its come to this
> 
> From the best three way in wrestlings recent history to this already questionable card for a polically unstable promotion with not much of a future for us to look foward to


Um. Yes?


----------



## SeanWrestling

Since ROH did say ANX will be performing at this show, I'm calling it now, ROH is going to break ANX and WGTT up into a pair of singles matches and if I'm right, hopefully we get what is a dream match for me which is Shelton Benjamin vs. Kenny King,And of course the other match would be Charlie Haas vs. Rhett Titus which could be good itself.As far as Mike Bennett goes, I hope he wrestles a returning ROH vet.One of the better ones in the ring to make up for Mike Bennett's mediocrity in the ring.I was thinking what if ROH started a storyline where Mike Bennett kept challenging ROH vets in an attempt to cement his own legacy in ROH.Yes I know it would be a ripoff of Randy Orton's Legend Killer gimmick but that shit would do wonders for Mike Bennett's career in ROH.It would generate him more heat than he's ever gotten, and hopefully help him improve in the ring.And it'll keep him busy.I see no way this can be a bad thing.


----------



## smitlick

Great to hear Kingston might return.


----------



## WOOLCOCK

Jesus christ, can some MMA promoter just book Davey and Kyle and make their dreams come true, its getting beyond a joke now with the whole 'we are real' speeches: you aren't convincing anyone. Guys like Eddie Kingston come off as more real and down to earth than Davey and Kyle: the whole 'storyline and character' shit was also really really stupid from Davey as well, character actually means something in the business and its a reason why guys like Danielson, Punk, McGuinness and Joe were some of the most over and successful independent wrestlers of their generation: they worked crowds every night beyond just what they could do grappling wise.

That Kozina guy was pretty good though, liked the line about him challenging the youth of today to prove he still had something, plus he actually came off more passionate and symapthetic and not talking out of his arse like Davey and Kyle.

Kingston/Davey could probably be one of Davey's more watchable matches should it ever happen, assuming they work a story around Kingston trying to prove himself and overcome the odds which he works well. If they just had a your turn my turn match with little control it would probably still be better than the equivalent of Davey/Kyle but would be a huge disappointment.


----------



## Last Chancery

I just giggled at Davey saying he could out-wrestle anybody in the world when that is far, far from the truth. Wrestling is more about ~teh movez~ and includes selling, character, playing the audience, etc., all things he knows nothing about. At least in his ROH work. So, maybe he can out-movez anybody in the world, but out-wrestle? That's laughable.


----------



## EmbassyForever

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=5qM2N2bNDIA
Tribute to ROH. AWESOME.


----------



## wildpegasus

Neutronic said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6rbb4y_wRE
> 
> Not really an Anniversary promo but linking it here.
> 
> Team Jujitsu looks to be showing signs of a heel turn. Acting like real a-holes here.
> 
> 
> Or maybe this is Davey's idea of a face promo.
> 
> Also Tony Kozina is awesome.


Awesome promos in so many different ways that works for a variety of fans. I had to make a copy of it. Really motivational.


----------



## Chismo

Neutronic said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6rbb4y_wRE
> 
> Not really an Anniversary promo but linking it here.
> 
> Team Jujitsu looks to be showing signs of a heel turn. Acting like real a-holes here.
> 
> 
> Or maybe this is Davey's idea of a face promo.
> 
> Also Tony Kozina is awesome.


Yeah, definitely heelish. Like I said million times before, they are natural dickheads, it's so easy to booo them. They need to lose the main event, and then turn heel by beating the shit out of Cole and Eddie in aftermath. Kozina should join too, and Eddie Kington needs to make a save, so at Synergy we could get Team Ambition vs. Edwards, Cole and Kingston, which is a setup for Davey/kingston.


----------



## SeanWrestling

JoeRulz said:


> Yeah, definitely heelish. Like I said million times before, they are natural dickheads, it's so easy to booo them. They need to lose the main event, and then turn heel by beating the shit out of Cole and Eddie in aftermath. Kozina should join too, and Eddie Kington needs to make a save, so at Synergy we could get Team Ambition vs. Edwards, Cole and Kingston, which is a setup for Davey/kingston.


Nice!


----------



## Matt_Yoda

Davey Richards can't cut promos lol? 2009-2010 says hi.


----------



## Manu_Styles

The problem with the Team Ambition turn is that internet hate them and blablablah but none crowd ever boo them in ROH, they even start a "Davey Richards" chant in Steen´s first promo after Final Battle.


----------



## Rickey

Brian Kendrick is off the TNA roster page so if he's leaving then maybe he shows up here?


----------



## Corey

I'll take that. Have him face Bennett or BJ Whitmer in a Legends match.


----------



## Manu_Styles

Spanky is lazy as fuck now, he and London lost their passion for wrestling, i hope he stay away from ROH.


----------



## Legend

Unfortunately I think was meant to be a babyface promo from Richards & Co. 

Oops.


----------



## Neutronic

Manu_Styles said:


> Spanky is lazy as fuck now, he and London lost their passion for wrestling, i hope he stay away from ROH.


I always thought Kendrick was awful, even moreso since his TNA stint.

London was great back in the day but he's burnt out now.



> so its come to this
> 
> From the best three way in wrestlings recent history to this already questionable card for a polically unstable promotion with not much of a future for us to look foward to


Uh what?


----------



## Bubz

Segunda Caida said:


> Jesus christ, can some MMA promoter just book Davey and Kyle and make their dreams come true, its getting beyond a joke now with the whole 'we are real' speeches: you aren't convincing anyone. Guys like Eddie Kingston come off as more real and down to earth than Davey and Kyle: the whole 'storyline and character' shit was also really really stupid from Davey as well, character actually means something in the business and its a reason why guys like Danielson, Punk, McGuinness and Joe were some of the most over and successful independent wrestlers of their generation: they worked crowds every night beyond just what they could do grappling wise.
> 
> That Kozina guy was pretty good though, liked the line about him challenging the youth of today to prove he still had something, plus he actually came off more passionate and symapthetic and not talking out of his arse like Davey and Kyle.
> 
> Kingston/Davey could probably be one of Davey's more watchable matches should it ever happen, assuming they work a story around Kingston trying to prove himself and overcome the odds which he works well. If they just had a your turn my turn match with little control it would probably still be better than the equivalent of Davey/Kyle but would be a huge disappointment.


I agree with this 100%. That was a fucking stupid promo. 'I can out-wrestle anyone in the world, I'm not talking about charcter's or storylines', I think I lost pretty much all respect for Davey after saying that. For one he can't out-wrestle a lot of people and 2, if he thinks that being the best wrestler in the world consists of a thousand kicks, suplexes, top rope suplexes, brainbusters and head drops, double stomps and nothing more, then he is right, he is the best in the world, but unfortunately for him that isn't what it means. I know they were acting heelish and all, but saying shit like that makes people actually not want to see him at all. I guess it makes me want to cheer for Eddie/Cole though. I'm sick of this 'we are real wrestlers' shit too. The most annoying thing is that I think Davey actually believes that he is more 'real' than eveyone else because he doesn't do any of the 'fake storytelling' in his matches and just 'fights', but like you said, that's a huge part of the business and something that actually makes wrestling enjoyable to watch. I guess he really does want to be in MMA now. There was a point years ago when Danielson was leaving and Davey had just become really popular and Danielson basically put Davey over as the new best in the world, when I would have said that, yeah, Davey does have a chance at being the new best in the world in a few years. I think most ROH fans thought that too, and expected him to get better and really make a claim for that title, I don't think anyone expected him to get progressively worse and worse.

/end rant

Oh, and I can't stand Kyle O'Reilly.


----------



## Neutronic

Bubz said:


> I agree with this 100%. That was a fucking stupid promo. 'I can out-wrestle anyone in the world, I'm not talking about charcter's or storylines', I think I lost pretty much all respect for Davey after saying that. For one he can't out-wrestle a lot of people and 2, if he thinks that being the best wrestler in the world consists of a thousand kicks, suplexes, top rope suplexes, brainbusters and head drops, double stomps and nothing more, then he is right, he is the best in the world, but unfortunately for him that isn't what it means. I know they were acting heelish and all, but saying shit like that makes people actually not want to see him at all. I guess it makes me want to cheer for Eddie/Cole though. I'm sick of this 'we are real wrestlers' shit too. The most annoying thing is that I think Davey actually believes that he is more 'real' than eveyone else because he doesn't do any of the 'fake storytelling' in his matches and just 'fights', but like you said, that's a huge part of the business and something that actually makes wrestling enjoyable to watch. I guess he really does want to be in MMA now. There was a point years ago when Danielson was leaving and Davey had just become really popular and Danielson basically put Davey over as the new best in the world, when I would have said that, yeah, Davey does have a chance at being the new best in the world in a few years. I think most ROH fans thought that too, and expected him to get better and really make a claim for that title, I don't think anyone expected him to get progressively worse and worse.
> 
> /end rant
> 
> Oh, and I can't stand Kyle O'Reilly.


Looks like Davey's heel turn is working pretty well.


----------



## EmbassyForever

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHqR...xt=C3ab3301ADOEgsToPDskJ3niX7gfyc9HNJ-qjjCM1h.
Bennett. Is. Awesome.


----------



## Neutronic

Maria is a superman shirt?

Marry me

Also that promo was awesome.

Why are his youtube promos better than his regular promos?


----------



## Matt_Yoda

Are ROH wrestlers not fans of MMA or something because I like MMA. 

Anyways, good stuff by Bennett here, he and Maria plays off of each other very well. He should link his videos to ROH's channel though since it is talking about the 10th Anniversary show.


----------



## seabs

Neutronic said:


> Looks like Davey's heel turn is working pretty well.


*He hasn't turned heel and Bubz isn't giving him heel heat. Midnight Express used to get heel heat but everyone loved watching them. Davey gets go away heat from that section of fans. BIG difference.*


----------



## Bubz

Neutronic said:


> Looks like Davey's heel turn is working pretty well.





Seabs said:


> *He hasn't turned heel and Bubz isn't giving him heel heat. Midnight Express used to get heel heat but everyone loved watching them. Davey gets go away heat from that section of fans. BIG difference.*


Well, Seabs answered that one for me lol.


----------



## Neutronic

Seabs said:


> *He hasn't turned heel and Bubz isn't giving him heel heat. Midnight Express used to get heel heat but everyone loved watching them. Davey gets go away heat from that section of fans. BIG difference.*


There is no such thing as Go Away Heat or X-Pac heat, I really wish the IWC would stop using those terms.


----------



## dukenukem3do

from dixie carter's twitter "Happy 10th Anniversary @RingOfHonor!! Best wishes to you for continued success"


----------



## Neutronic

dukenukem3do said:


> from dixie carter's twitter "Happy 10th Anniversary @RingOfHonor!! Best wishes to you for continued success"


Guess she's forgiven Cornette for exposing her as an idiot?


----------



## flag sabbath

Neutronic said:


> Guess she's forgiven Cornette for exposing her as an idiot?


Or doesn't take him seriously as competition.


----------



## dukenukem3do

Neutronic said:


> Guess she's forgiven Cornette for exposing her as an idiot?


Don't be a jackass dude, she did save tna after all


----------



## EmbassyForever

dukenukem3do said:


> Don't be a jackass dude, she did save tna after all


And it's a good thing?


----------



## Neutronic

dukenukem3do said:


> Don't be a jackass dude, she did save tna after all


Actually her parents did.

Her parents bought TNA with Panda Energy on the condition that Dixie became President.

Dixie was also one of Vince Russo's biggest supporters, and also brought Hogan/Bischoff in. Completing the Trio of Cancer that destroyed TNA for years


But enough about the Gentlemen's Club this is an ROH thread.


----------



## bigbuxxx

Neutronic said:


> There is no such thing as Go Away Heat or X-Pac heat, I really wish the IWC would stop using those terms.


yeah, there is. most people change the channel when these people come on instead of sticking around to boo. at the arena you're forced to say "f off".


----------



## Neutronic

bigbuxxx said:


> yeah, there is. most people change the channel when these people come on instead of sticking around to boo. at the arena you're forced to say "f off".


and what are they going to do at the show?

Get up and leave because of 1 wrestler?


----------



## SimplyIncredible

EmbassyForever said:


> And it's a good thing?


So you would prefer for there just to be WWE and nobody else? Again.

BOY that would be swell. If you want wresting to do well and have competition again, you should be praying TNA does well. They are the only possible competition to give Vince.

Back to the Davey and co promo, what a terrible, terrible, terrible, terrible promo.

if you fucking hate pro wrestling so much Davey, and wish to be 'real', then do us all a favour and piss off to MMA.

Because when i hear him speak, thats the impression I get, that he is doing US a favour by being here, and he would rather be doing something else, something more 'real'.

Be my guest and do it.

ROH has gone so far downhill I dont even know where to start.


----------



## Matt_Yoda

They'd be stupid to turn Davey heel after 2 years of investing/grooming him to be the top face of the company. Who's going to take his spot and be believable right now? Davey still gets great reactions and puts on damn good matches (I heard he does well in PWG and New Japan.) It's amazing how everyone was clamoring for Davey to win the fucking strap at Final Battle but shits on him a year later that's fickle IMO. Elements of MMA CAN work within pro wrestling (shocking right?), both forms of entertainment has always had some correlation but Cornette & Lizard Man went about it the wrong way, they fucked up. All this talking shit about the wrestlers when the bookers should be held accountable too. All Ring of Honor need to do is fix the little things that're hurting the product and the company could seriously turn around on a dime. Too much emphasis on the wrestling, not enough on the emotional investment.


----------



## Neutronic

Davey was the underdog from 09-10 struggling to win the belt

Remember what happened with Tyler Black?

Once he got the title everyone turned on him. It happens with EVERYONE literally everyone in wrestling today.

CM Punk is a great example of how loved he was back when he was trying to become the top guy

Now people are calling him Super Punk.

The IWC confuses me greatly.


----------



## bigbuxxx

Neutronic said:


> and what are they going to do at the show?
> 
> Get up and leave because of 1 wrestler?


that's my point. they don't leave, they give them "x-pac heat".



> The IWC confuses me greatly.


because you're not looking at what they're turning into once they hit that level, only that they were once revered and now people aren't crazy about them. punk, for example, was awesome in roh and up through summerslam. now he cuts lame promos, is getting sloppy in the ring, and is turning into the indestructible punkasaurus. the iwc doesn't want that shit.


----------



## Emperor DC

Neutronic said:


> Davey was the underdog from 09-10 struggling to win the belt
> 
> Remember what happened with Tyler Black?
> 
> Once he got the title everyone turned on him. It happens with EVERYONE literally everyone in wrestling today.
> 
> CM Punk is a great example of how loved he was back when he was trying to become the top guy
> *
> Now people are calling him Super Punk.*
> 
> The IWC confuses me greatly.


Are they?


----------



## Neutronic

You havent been around much have you? (poster above)





> because you're not looking at what they're turning into once they hit that level, only that they were once revered and now people aren't crazy about them. punk, for example, was awesome in roh and up through summerslam. now he cuts lame promos, is getting sloppy in the ring, and is turning into the indestructible punkasaurus. the iwc doesn't want that shit.


Punk is the same guy he was during the Summer of Punk, he hasn't changed, the IWC has.

The IWC loves complaining about how much a guy is getting buried, is underrated, deserves to be world champ or isn't getting used properly.

They beg for a guy to get a push.

Once that guy get's pushed, they begin to turn on him because he is no longer an underdog.


----------



## Bubz

Let me clarify, I don't hate Davey, infact I'm one of the few who still likes the guy on here, but all this shit about other wrestlers being 'pretend' because they don't train in MMA or whatever is fucking stupid. You are right in saying it isn't just Daveys fault but ROH's fault too for letting him say that shit though.

And as far as the 'people just turn on guys who get popular' argument, it doesn't apply to Davey at all, people are starting to dislike him because he's gotten worse as a wrestler since he became popular, mainly due to this fake MMA style he tries to do which doesn't work at all in his matches and fails to create any emotion or story in matches, but it seems like that's what he wants so it's probably only going to get worse as he continues to attempt to work this style into matches. It seems to only be in ROH though, so yeah it is their fault as well.


----------



## Neutronic

As I said, his heel turn is working out pretty good judging by the reactions


----------



## Bubz

It's bloody pointless with you isn't it. Don't answer by the way, it's rhetorical.


----------



## Neutronic

Bubz said:


> It's bloody pointless with you isn't it. Don't answer by the way, it's rhetorical.


What is rhetorical? You didn't write a question, I don't believe rhetorical statements exist.

Also I agree it's pointless, I've stated my point, and you won't change your mind so that is that.


----------



## Bubz

Yeah well....my question mark key is broke, so...


----------



## Neutronic

Ah, well I did not know that


----------



## SeanWrestling

The only problem I had with Team Ambition's promo was Kyle O'Reilly's part.He trys WAYYY too hard to be intense, but instead of intimidating me, he makes me laugh then just makes me wanna slap the shit out of him.I wanna see him scream in somebodies face and watch that person try to keep a straight face and not laugh at Kyle O'Reilly.God I hate that guy.I have since like mid last year.It started with Future Shock promos.Whenever they would cut a promo, it would start off with Adam Cole talking and while he was talking, Kyle would just be sitting or standing there with his arms crossed not even looking at the camera as if he was too cool for school.Then when he would start talking, he would keep his arms crossed and try to talk calmly and arrogantly as if he was King Shit.And this was while FS was on somewhat of a losing streak.I'm telling you, every single promo was like that.Eventually he started showing more enthusiasm, but just came off as trying to hard to be intense.He really needs to find a middle ground.But Davey?Well he's still my favorite wrestler so it's going to suck rooting against him if he turns heel and Tony Kozina is awesome and I wanna see ROH use him more.


----------



## -Mystery-

Neutronic said:


> There is no such thing as Go Away Heat or X-Pac heat, I really wish the IWC would stop using those terms.


Oh how wrong you are.


----------



## Neutronic

-Mystery- said:


> Oh how wrong you are.


X-Pac Heat was a stupid term in itself, but Go Away Heat is a recent phrase that has popped up that is just as stupid. Especially when the majority of the IWC has no idea what heat is.


----------



## C-Cool

SeanWrestling said:


> The only problem I had with Team Ambition's promo was Kyle O'Reilly's part.He trys WAYYY too hard to be intense, but instead of intimidating me, he makes me laugh then just makes me wanna slap the shit out of him.I wanna see him scream in somebodies face and watch that person try to keep a straight face and not laugh at Kyle O'Reilly.God I hate that guy.I have since like mid last year.It started with Future Shock promos.Whenever they would cut a promo, it would start off with Adam Cole talking and while he was talking, Kyle would just be sitting or standing there with his arms crossed not even looking at the camera as if he was too cool for school.Then when he would start talking, he would keep his arms crossed and try to talk calmly and arrogantly as if he was King Shit.And this was while FS was on somewhat of a losing streak.I'm telling you, every single promo was like that.Eventually he started showing more enthusiasm, but just came off as trying to hard to be intense.He really needs to find a middle ground.But Davey?Well he's still my favorite wrestler so it's going to suck rooting against him if he turns heel and Tony Kozina is awesome and I wanna see ROH use him more.


O'Reilly is getting to become a bad mix of Brother Bruti (being a roadie/"teammate" of Davey), Heath Slater (annoying in indescribable ways), and a Tapout/Ed Hardy wearing, faux-MMA douche-bag.

In all of this, lets hope this is intentional. Very intentional. Like everything is being done like this for a reason type of stuff. Because if that was a promo video for faces...


----------



## flag sabbath

Neutronic said:


> X-Pac Heat was a stupid term in itself, but Go Away Heat is a recent phrase that has popped up that is just as stupid. Especially when the majority of the IWC has no idea what heat is.


Heel heat draws. Go away heat ultimately has the potential to drive fans away.

You continue to conduct the majority of your arguments with an imagined community. Seek help...


----------



## KingCrash

Neutronic said:


> Davey was the underdog from 09-10 struggling to win the belt
> 
> *Remember what happened with Tyler Black?
> 
> Once he got the title everyone turned on him. It happens with EVERYONE literally everyone in wrestling today.*
> 
> CM Punk is a great example of how loved he was back when he was trying to become the top guy
> 
> Now people are calling him Super Punk.
> 
> The IWC confuses me greatly.


Actually no, most fans quite honestly got tired of the too long chase of title for Black and between that and the horrid booking (from the 49 min. 60 min. draw to Final Battle 09) no one cared about him winning the title. Definitely wasn't because he wasn't the underdog anymore.

And why can't people change their minds over time. When Homicide first returned to ROH after TNA let him go everyone was happy. Then we found out he turned into garbage in the ring and people wanted him gone. Same with Davey's transforming ringwork or WGTT.


----------



## EmbassyForever

Don't know what the hell is your problem with Kyle. You can't say that he's not a very good wrestler (holly shit, i said wrestler and no MMA Fighter!!). And I like the idea of team ambtion. MMA jerks, could work I belive..


----------



## rizzotherat

Neutronic said:


> X-Pac Heat was a stupid term in itself, but Go Away Heat is a recent phrase that has popped up that is just as stupid. Especially when the majority of the IWC has no idea what heat is.


X-Pac heat exists more than the IWC does


----------



## Neutronic

flag sabbath said:


> Heel heat draws. Go away heat ultimately has the potential to drive fans away.
> 
> *You continue to conduct the majority of your arguments with an imagined community. Seek help*...


Please avoid personal attacks on this forum.

And I urge you to go to google and look up the definition of Internet Wrestling Community, which you are clearly part of.


----------



## Tony Tornado

How did Kyle O'Reilly get a ROH contract? I've never seen anyone being so devoid of charisma. Someone should link that promo whenever people criticize Daniel Bryan and the rest of the indie talent on WWE for being bland.

And X-Pac heat is definitely real. That's what makes me skip Eddie Edwards, Davey Richards and O'Reilly matches.


----------



## Neutronic

KingCrash said:


> And why can't people change their minds over time. When Homicide first returned to ROH after TNA let him go everyone was happy. Then we found out he turned into garbage in the ring and people wanted him gone. Same with Davey's transforming ringwork or WGTT.


People can change their mind, but anyone that has done even a microbe of study on human behavior knows how the mob effect works. Human's seek to be part of a group, it's just human nature. We call these people bandwagoners.


----------



## flag sabbath

Neutronic said:


> Please avoid personal attacks on this forum.
> 
> And I urge you to go to google and look up the definition of Internet Wrestling Community, which you are clearly part of.


First up, apologies for the personal dig - no offence intended.

It just bugs me that you regularly reference these unsubstantiated mass opinions rather than addressing individuals' specific points.


----------



## nevereveragainu

Segunda Caida said:


> its a reason why guys like Danielson, Punk, McGuinness and Joe were some of the most over and successful independent wrestlers of their generation: they worked crowds every night beyond just what they could do grappling wise..


i thought it was becasue WWe are making sure no-one else uses them so that there can never be another wrestling war

and it just so happens that these guys are dilusional gold diggers like the rest of them in WWE


----------



## EffectRaven

I consider myself one of Team Ambition's biggest supporters but that promo legit pissed me off. If ROH is smart they'll use this to turn them heel.

I'd like to see Kevin Steen taking the title off Davey to be the trigger. The elitist prick champion losing to this fat slob who brawls instead of 'wrestles' would be amazing. Steen is already the most over guy on the roster so they might as well utilize it


----------



## flag sabbath

EffectRaven said:


> I consider myself one of Team Ambition's biggest supporters but that promo legit pissed me off. If ROH is smart they'll use this to turn them heel.
> 
> I'd like to see Kevin Steen taking the title off Davey to be the trigger. The elitist prick champion losing to this fat slob who brawls instead of 'wrestles' would be amazing. Steen is already the most over guy on the roster so they might as well utilize it


I agree up to a point, but wouldn't it be even better to have Davey turn while cheating Steen out of the title? Might as well get some decent mileage out of Richards as an elitist prick heel champ first, before Steen eventually derails him.


----------



## Neutronic

Doesn't ROH have a show in Toronto?

That'd be a great show to have Davey heel turn on Steen


----------



## McQueen

EmbassyForever said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHqR...xt=C3ab3301ADOEgsToPDskJ3niX7gfyc9HNJ-qjjCM1h.
> Bennett. Is. Awesome.


Holy fuck this is REALLY good.

LOL at the Davey/O'Reilly/Kozina thing. O'Reilly was sooooo bad.


----------



## mavsfan41

for 10 bucks how can u not buy this ippv?


----------



## nevereveragainu

mavsfan41 said:


> for 10 bucks how can u not buy this ippv?


because after the heights roh haver fallen from you would get a better deal just buying the 1st show ever on dvd so that you can lament in a good way about how exciting it was to be an indy fan back then and what could have been,,,


----------



## Neutronic

nevereveragainu said:


> because after the heights roh haver fallen from you would get a better deal just buying the 1st show ever on dvd so that you can lament in a good way about how exciting it was to be an indy fan back then and what could have been,,,


I find that a funny comment because the first show ROH had was pretty awful aside from the Main Event.

Da Hit Squad vs. The Christopher Street Connection

Xavier vs. Scoot Andrews

The Boogie Knights vs. The Natural Born Sinners

Prince Nana vs. The Towel Boy

Michael Shane & Oz vs. Spanky & Ikaika Loa


Psh, who needs HoT vs TJP/Red, Ambition vs Cole/Edwards, or Bucks v Briscoes when you've got such star-studded talent like that from the 1st show.


----------



## KingCrash

And your piss break for the 10th Anniversary will be:











After seeing their Glory By Honor X match no interest in this at all. Hopefully this time Shelton won't cut a shitty promo with bad duck jokes afterwards.


----------



## EffectRaven

Now that WGTT are heels it could be more interesting to watch. Should be a solid bout regardless. I'm just pumped to see Rhett Titus back, that guy is awesome and arguably the most underrated man on the roster


----------



## EmbassyForever

Their match from GBH wasn't that bad. It was pretty decent. But I really want King/Shelton and 4-way with Bennett/Titus/Haas and maybe someone from Chikara..


----------



## KingCrash

Don't know about that, they've met twice in tag matches and of course that four-way and really didn't have any chemistry together. Hope ANX win because after Ladder War 3 it seemed like ANX had momentum to move to the next level and that has come to a grinding halt even before Rhett's injury.


----------



## Chismo

I'm somehow interested in WGTT now when they're heels. Charlie Haas is doing a really good job now, with his promos, look and overall badass attirude. Benjamin is still bad.


----------



## jawbreaker

I'm still disappointed about this and I can't figure out why. I guess I was just hoping they'd leave WGTT off the show. Maybe then I'd buy it.


----------



## Matt_Yoda

WGTT vs. ANX could be a solid match if everyone plays their role properly, a basic bully heel/underdog babyface tag team match should suffice. I think its important for ANX to go over but I wouldn't be surprised if the Young Bucks interfere and cost ANX the match setting up for ANX vs. Young Bucks for SITS Weekend.


----------



## bigbuxxx

mavsfan41 said:


> for 10 bucks how can u not buy this ippv?


doesn't look that good and it will be available for d/l within 4 hours of it's conclusion and probably sooner.


----------



## EffectRaven

Matt_Yoda said:


> WGTT vs. ANX could be a solid match if everyone plays their role properly, a basic bully heel/underdog babyface tag team match should suffice. I think its important for ANX to go over but I wouldn't be surprised if the Young Bucks interfere and cost ANX the match setting up for ANX vs. Young Bucks for SITS Weekend.


I was thinking that or maybe we'll see a DQ finish with WGTT doing something to get DQ'd to keep both teams looking good


----------



## jawbreaker

Remember when ROH made everyone look good without run-ins or DQs?


----------



## Manu_Styles

https://www.rohwrestling.com/news/revenge-what-cost

I love Steve Corino. Jacobs vs Steen is officially even more hype!


----------



## Neutronic

jawbreaker said:


> I'm still disappointed about this and I can't figure out why. I guess I was just hoping they'd leave WGTT off the show. Maybe then I'd buy it.


You won't buy the show because of WGTT?

I'll see you Sunday


----------



## Manu_Styles

jawbreaker said:


> I'm still disappointed about this and I can't figure out why. I guess I was just hoping they'd leave WGTT off the show. Maybe then I'd buy it.


You missing the first big win of Cole in ROH? C´mon man!


----------



## jawbreaker

It's not so much that I won't buy the show because WGTT are on it as it is that I'm not going to buy the show but I might if WGTT weren't on it.

Like, the pros of the show (Steen/Jacobs, Cole in the ME, Bucks title shot, Ciampa TV title shot) don't outweigh the cons (Briscoes as champs, the rest of the guys in the ME, WGTT) for me, but if you remove one of those cons then they might. Which is about as strong an endorsement as ROH has gotten from me in nine months.


----------



## Neutronic

Well like I said before I'll see you Sunday.


----------



## Neutronic

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=duB03KWPkBE&feature=g-u-u&context=G248ea52FUAAAAAAAAAA

New Briscoes promo. They write a poem for the Young Bucks, it's quite beautiful.

Edit: ROH announced Homicide is returning for the show

Most likely against Bennett


----------



## EffectRaven

jawbreaker said:


> Remember when ROH made everyone look good without run-ins or DQs?


They still do but I think this match in particular needs one, neither team can afford a loss here in my opinion


----------



## Manu_Styles

Homicide vs Colt Cabana anyone?


----------



## KYSeahawks

Briscoes vs. Young Bucks and Steen vs. Jacobs seem like the only reason to watch this show.


----------



## SeanWrestling

This card sucks I'm sorry.If this was any other show ok but it's the 10th Anniversary Show which should be treated as a bigger deal than all the other anniversary shows.They could of atleast broke WGTT and ANX up into singles matches to keep things fresh but no they're giving us another match between these two teams.And so what if Homicide is returning if he's facing Bennett?The only two matches I care about on this show and I think are worthy of taking place at this show is the HOT vs. RED/TJP and Steen/Jacobs match.I'm sure the wrestling should be great all around but this just don't feel like a big show.Sorry just my opinion.I'll wait for the DVD.


----------



## smitlick

Wow the ROH threads are really turning to trash.. People actually asking for Homicide to be booked again and then Homicide actually being booked and then people actually asking for Shelton Benjamin singles matches...


----------



## Emperor DC

Anyone asking for Benjamin matches of any description need a kick in the cunt.


----------



## jawbreaker

Neutronic said:


> Well like I said before I'll see you Sunday.


What do you even mean by this? I'm not going to buy the show, I'll probably download it and watch it Monday. That's what I've done with pretty much every ROH iPPV since 9AS. I bought the ones before that, and except for GBH 9, felt like I got my money's worth.


----------



## Bubz

Neutronic said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=duB03KWPkBE&feature=g-u-u&context=G248ea52FUAAAAAAAAAA
> 
> New Briscoes promo. They write a poem for the Young Bucks, it's quite beautiful.
> 
> Edit: ROH announced Homicide is returning for the show
> 
> Most likely against Bennett


Another cracker from Dem Boys.


----------



## Neutronic

jawbreaker said:


> What do you even mean by this? I'm not going to buy the show, *I'll probably download it and watch it Monday.* That's what I've done with pretty much every ROH iPPV since 9AS. I bought the ones before that, and except for GBH 9, felt like I got my money's worth.


Called that right on the money, I'll take my 10 points.


----------



## jawbreaker

Oh man, take credit for predicting I'd do the same thing I do every time. Great job. Brilliant guesswork there.


----------



## Neutronic

jawbreaker said:


> Oh man, take credit for predicting I'd do the same thing I do every time. Great job. Brilliant guesswork there.


You talk about how you don't want to watch a show, how every match is awful and then goes ahead and watches it anyway every single time? That doesn't seem like healthy behavior.

http://twitter.com/#!/CMPunk/status/126099966597922816

Just switch out "Raw"

https://www.rohwrestling.com/news/prodigy-gets-notorious-nyc

Bennett vs Homicide announced.

"Worst match on the card"
"Terrible match"
"Going to suck"

Just figured I'd get those out of the way before anyone bothers to post them.


----------



## EffectRaven

As long as Bennett goes over it's fine in my opinion


----------



## Neutronic

EffectRaven said:


> As long as Bennett goes over it's fine in my opinion


It is the only match I'm not excited for and probably will be the worst match

But agreed Bennett should go over.


----------



## Manu_Styles

Neutronic said:


> You talk about how you don't want to watch a show, how every match is awful and then goes ahead and watches it anyway every single time? That doesn't seem like healthy behavior.
> 
> http://twitter.com/#!/CMPunk/status/126099966597922816
> 
> Just switch out "Raw"
> 
> https://www.rohwrestling.com/news/prodigy-gets-notorious-nyc
> 
> Bennett vs Homicide announced.
> 
> "Worst match on the card"
> "Terrible match"
> "Going to suck"
> 
> Just figured I'd get those out of the way before anyone bothers to post them.


You leave: 

Why they bring wrestlers from the past?


----------



## jawbreaker

Why do you keep using that argument? I complain because I plan on watching it again. If I was going to give up on it, or had already given up on it and then went back, I wouldn't complain.

Complaining is what happens when something does not meet your expectations. My expectations are not yet low enough that I can either stop watching or start enjoying the product ROH presents. Eventually they might be, and that's when I'll stop complaining.


----------



## Neutronic

jawbreaker said:


> Why do you keep using that argument? I complain because I plan on watching it again. If I was going to give up on it, or had already given up on it and then went back, I wouldn't complain.
> 
> Complaining is what happens when something does not meet your expectations. My expectations are not yet low enough that I can either stop watching or start enjoying the product ROH presents. Eventually they might be, and that's when I'll stop complaining.


I use that argument because I don't understand why anyone would watch a product they have nothing nice to say about.

I used to watch TNA and complain about how bad it was. Know what I did? I stopped watching because I realize it was a waste of my time to continue watching if I wasn't enjoying it.


----------



## jawbreaker

I enjoy lots of things about ROH. The Young Bucks, Kevin Steen, Adam Cole, the ANX (mostly Titus), Strong, Perkins, even the occasional Briscoes or Edwards match. Why would I give up on a product that has all these things I like?


----------



## Neutronic

jawbreaker said:


> I enjoy lots of things about ROH. The Young Bucks, Kevin Steen, Adam Cole, the ANX (mostly Titus), Strong, Perkins, even the occasional Briscoes or Edwards match. Why would I give up on a product that has all these things I like?


Fooled me


----------



## -Mystery-

Neutronic said:


> Fooled me


Considering you only focus on when people speak negatively about ROH, the fact that you missed that surprises nobody.


----------



## Neutronic

-Mystery- said:


> Considering you only focus on when people speak negatively about ROH, the fact that you missed that surprises nobody.


Fooled me because he's never said anything positive


----------



## Neutronic

> - Athletes from the CHIKARA organization have been invited to attend our “10th Anniversary Event” and CHIKARA Grand Champion Eddie Kingston has stated publicly on his Twitter (@ChikaraKingston) that he has accepted the invitation. Kingston, no stranger to ROH, mentioned that it will be good to see old friends and *he is interested at seeing the ROH World Champion wrestle up close*.


Seeds are planted


----------



## KingCrash

Always love how every ROH thread eventually turns into Neutronic vs. everyone else. Don't care about Bennett/Homicide unless it's the Urban Wrestling Federation version of Homicide that comes out and actually tries to kill Bennett. It'll suck, we'll see Maria's tits and then we'll hopefully move on to something good.


----------



## Neutronic

KingCrash said:


> *Always love how every ROH thread eventually turns into Neutronic vs. everyone else*. Don't care about Bennett/Homicide unless it's the Urban Wrestling Federation version of Homicide that comes out and actually tries to kill Bennett. It'll suck, we'll see Maria's tits and then we'll hopefully move on to something good.


Someone's gotta stand up for good wrestling 

If I have to be a matyr, so be it.


----------



## seabs

*It's best to just ignore him.

Bennett and Maria starting a feud with Cide and going to the UWF for one of their iPPVs would be the best thing to happen all year. Especially based on Rasche Brown having his brains blown out on the last show.*


----------



## KingCrash

The idea of a Melle Mel & Kingston vs. Uncle Murda & Homicide over who gets to pimp Maria feud after Bennett "disappears" sounds great.


----------



## jawbreaker

God I need to find some UWF on the internet somewhere. It sounds like the best shit.


----------



## McQueen

Seabs said:


> *It's best to just ignore him.
> 
> Bennett and Maria starting a feud with Cide and going to the UWF for one of their iPPVs would be the best thing to happen all year. Especially based on Rasche Brown having his brains blown out on the last show.*


Shot in the head angle. Amazing stuff.

Pro Wrestling Suspending Disbelief to the point the justice system doesn't exist: Since 2011


----------



## Beatles123

Neutronic said:


> Seeds are planted


Any link to the info he posted? I'm too lazy to read back through all this.


----------



## Bubz

Kingston coming in should be awesome.


----------



## Matt_Yoda

I'm" moreso hoping that Kingston can hang this time around. If I've never heard of Eddie Kingston until his ROH run, I would be pretty unimpressed. I think that its important in NY to make Kingston look like a big deal to build hype for the shows in Chicago. On the same token, they shouldn't let it take precedence over Team Amibition/Eddie & Cole storyline.


----------



## peety14

you guys think there might be more surprises and maybe surprise matches for this show that there not stating???


----------



## Emperor DC

> I haven't done this in a little while. And I see now that O'Reilly and Cole have decided to write down how they feel as they head into ROH's 10th anniversary show...in the main-event.
> 
> Reading their letters has made me realize that perhaps it's time for me to write down how I feel as I head into the same show...NOT in the main-event.
> 
> Everyone knows what match should be headlining the show this Sunday. It should be an ROH World Championship match with Davey Richards vs Kevin Steen. There is no denying it. Jim Cornette and the rest of ROH management can play dumb but they know it too. They simply refuse to let it happen because deep down they know what everyone else knows as well...when that match happens, I will become the most unlikely ROH World Champion ever.
> 
> But please, don't get me wrong, I'm very excited for this Sunday. It actually seems fitting that on a date such as this, I be stepping into the ring for a war with Jimmy Jacobs.
> You see, Jimmy and I were good friends for a long time. We've even spent countless days and nights talking about ROH, wrestling in general, our careers, our lives, our future, etc...
> 
> Of course we don't exactly see eye-to-eye anymore but I'm glad that I will be able to share that special occasion with someone I'm close with. Because Jimmy, regardless of what you want to admit to yourself, we are much closer than you let on. Because you still have that darkness inside of you. Deny it all you want, it's there...the same darkness I have. The darkness that comes from having an entire company against you. The darkness that comes from being pushed out, and then being kept out, simpy because you don't ''fit in'' with the vision of the high-and-mighty corporate tools that run the circus.
> 
> Yet here we find ourselves...getting ready for a fight that will most likely leave us with memories that will haunt us for the rest of our careers...
> 
> *Happy anniversary, Jimmy. It's time to celebrate.
> 
> But forget the champagne...
> 
> This Sunday, we celebrate with blood.*
> 
> XOXO
> Kevin


:lmao


----------



## Bubz

STEEN! What a man. Can't wait for him to destroy Jacobs, and he's right he should be in the main event .


----------



## Manu_Styles

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=RShcrijp0NI


----------



## Bubz

Manu_Styles said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=RShcrijp0NI


Steen is incredible. Really looking forward to that match now.

Lethal was really good in his promo...Kyle wasn't.


----------



## Chismo

Manu_Styles said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=RShcrijp0NI


- great promos from Steen and Lethal
- lol, Davey actually managed to look like a fucking boss somehow
- Kyle was meh
- those 10-year highlights rocked


----------



## geraldinhio

_Steen with another great promo. His calm delivery is so awesome ,nothing feels forced at all. I'm looking foward to Steen/Jacobs more than anything on the card,by a good distance too. It's tempting me to buy it , I'm still not too sure though.

I'm a big fan of Lethal. He has his critics but he can cut a good promo. 

Kyle's promo was in a stark contrast to Steen's to say the least. He's supposed to come across as a intense MMA guy but then he goes on to say "Frickin".:lmao

Ahh nostaglia at it's best. I mark like a bitch everytime I see Jacobs get killed by BJ with than insane powerbomb. Nearly brings a tear to my eye watching the video.  Just highlights how different the product is now. _


----------



## Manu_Styles

https://www.rohwrestling.com/news/t...ire?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

- And speaking of blogs, Kevin Steen offered up one of his own in regards to the “10th Anniversary Event” you can read here. Also, announced yesterday, ROH officials have now decided that “Wrestling’s Worst Nightmare” Kevin Steen and Jimmy Jacobs will be contested under No Disqualification rules this Sunday in New York City as part of the “10th Anniversary Event”. It is believed that this match could be very violent and it could potentially be cut short by ROH referees abiding by the standard rule regulations. ROH officials, nor the fans, want to see this match end abruptly due to the aggressive nature of the situation, therefore ROH officials have decided to abolish the disqualification clause. Viewer Discretion Is Advised!

- There are rumors that ROH will hold a special interview with CHIKARA Grand Champion Eddie Kingston this Sunday at the Hammerstein Ballroom in New York City!


----------



## Matt_Yoda

Yep just like I thought, they're going use this match to showcase Kyle O'Reilly & Adam Cole. Why the hell doesn't Dirty Ernie wrestle anymore at or least manage someone else? Strong promo from Lethal, not a lot to work off of but Lethal pinpointed the story going into the match and sold it. Typical Steen promo, not much else to be said there.

Kyle needs to find his bearing in promos, he WAY more relaxed which is good but he needs to work on his pacing so it doesn't come off as forced. He emulates Davey which is fine to an extent but Kyle needs his own flavor of promo to make himself stand out more. Good video wire.

I love the highlights as well, serves as a great backdrop for the show. It would be awesome if they played that to kick off the 10AS.


----------



## Chismo

Eddie Kingston wrestling against Steen(!), Richards and Jay Briscoe would be great down the road, and hopefully one of those matches being for the Grand Championship. But one match I really want to see is the Trios match between Team Ambition (Davey-Kyle-Kozina) vs. Edwards, Cole and Kingston.


----------



## Kid Kamikaze10

jawbreaker said:


> God I need to find some UWF on the internet somewhere. It sounds like the best shit.


Same. They've gotta put out some DVDs or something.

Watching the preview shows have been the funniest part of my afternoon.


They're like the opposite end of CHIKARA's comedy: so "serious" it's hilarious. (unlike ROH, which is at times dull)

It's like Def Jam Vendetta on live TV.


----------



## dezpool

Wow, can't believe the show is tomorrow, seemed to come up really quickly to me. Nice to see they at least got Red and Homicide there as ROH alumni. Honestly, Red & TJP teaming up is what really has me interested. 

Anyone see Ciampa taking the TV title from Lethal?


----------



## Belisarius

I been to every ROH show in NY, but i cant go tomorrow, so i have a question. How is the IPPV? IS the quality good? 10$ is pretty cheap, so i might buy that.


----------



## Bubz

Yeah it's good, the stream has been known to die out a few times but the last few ippv's haven't had that problem. The audio sucks sometime too but it's well worth the money (if you like the product that is).

Also I don't see them ending Ciampa's undefeated streak yet so either a draw or he wins it I'm guessing.


----------



## Belisarius

Bubz said:


> Yeah it's good, the stream has been known to die out a few times but the last few ippv's haven't had that problem. The audio sucks sometime too but it's well worth the money (if you like the product that is).
> 
> Also I don't see them ending Ciampa's undefeated streak yet so either a draw or he wins it I'm guessing.


Yes i love ROH, so i will be watching it 2morrow on IPPV.


----------



## Pat9010

I think Ciampa takes the strap, Lethal has been Champion forever and i think they need to push him to the main event level. Not necessarily for the title, but give him feuds with Roderick or Elgin


----------



## Matt_Yoda

Nah I don't really see ROH using Lethal as a top tier main event guy. I see more in the role like Guerrero, Benoit and Jericho guys who are upper carders that get occassional World Title shots. Then again, with the way Lethal has been built up since his return I wouldn't be surprised if they did go all the way with him.


----------



## KingCrash

Well at this point they should give Ciampa the title because Lethal gets nothing out of ending Ciampa's streak and a draw will just make people roll their eyes and just give them another reason to not care about Time Limit Lethal.


----------



## Chismo

On a side not, why does ROH always calls their Anniversary shows differently? Like, "Show", "Celebration", "Event", "Festival", etc. I don't even know what's the exact name of this one.


----------



## jawbreaker

One-Year Anniversary Show
Second Anniversary Show
Third Anniversary Celebration (pts. 1, 2, 3)
Fourth Anniversary Show
Fifth Year Festival (NYC, Philly, Dayton, Chicago, Liverpool, Finale)
6th Anniversary Show
7th Anniversary Show
8th Anniversary Show
9th Anniversary Show

except for years 3 and 5 (which were really big deals), they've been fairly consistent, especially since 2008.


----------



## Bubz

Lazy question I know since I could just look it up but What time does this even start?


----------



## KingKicks

I THINK it's at 10pm for us.


----------



## Legend

10pm in Britain?


----------



## jawbreaker

it's like three hours from now. so 6 here, 10 in the UK, 5 eastern, 2 pacific.


----------



## Bubz

Ah ok, good stuff.


----------



## seabs

JoeRulz said:


> On a side not, why does ROH always calls their Anniversary shows differently? Like, "Show", "Celebration", "Event", "Festival", etc. I don't even know what's the exact name of this one.


*The only times it hasn't been "Show" is when it's been over more than one show.*



> Main Event
> ROH World Champion Davey Richards & Kyle O'Reilly vs. "Die Hard" Eddie Edwards & Adam Cole
> 
> ROH World Tag Team Championship
> Jay & Mark Briscoe defend against the Young Bucks
> 
> ROH World Television Championship
> Jay Lethal defends against "The Dominant Male" Tommaso Ciampa w/ The Embassy LTD.
> 
> NO DQ - Grudge Match
> Jimmy Jacobs takes on "Wrestling's Worst Nightmare" Kevin Steen
> 
> Special Attraction Tag Team Match
> The Amazing Red & "Technical Lightning" TJ Perkins vs The House of Truth ("Unbreakable" Michael Elgin & Roderick Strong) w/ Truth Martini
> 
> Glory By Honor X Tag Team Rematch
> Wrestling's Greatest Tag Team (Charlie Haas & Shelton Benjamin) vs The All Night Xpress (Rhett Titus & Kenny King)
> 
> Special Attraction
> "Notorious 187" Homicide vs "The Prodigy" Mike Bennett w/ Brutal Bob & Maria Kanellis
> 
> Also scheduled to appear
> - Steve Corino


*Just looking at the card and realised just how weak it really is. Nothing I'm exicted in. Briscoes/Bucks, Steen/Jacobs and the HOT tag could all be good but I'm only really interested in Steen/Jacobs. Those 4 guys (to a much lesser extent though with Cole) main eventing a big ROH show with a weak undercard together has me extremely worried for the quality of the match. Cant help but feel they will feel the need to go out and do absolutly everything and that's obviously not going to be good. Doesn't seem like there'll be a big turn/angle from the tapings either.*


----------



## Emperor DC

I ordered this.

Working tonight so will be watching it in the morning. For less than £7, it's worth it, because if there is only two or three good/great matches, it's worth the outlay.


----------



## Bubz

Seabs said:


> Just looking at the card and realised just how weak it really is. Nothing I'm exicted in. Briscoes/Bucks, Steen/Jacobs and the HOT tag could all be good but I'm only really interested in Steen/Jacobs. Those 4 guys (to a much lesser extent though with Cole) main eventing a big ROH show with a weak undercard together has me extremely worried for the quality of the match. *Cant help but feel they will feel the need to go out and do absolutly everything and that's obviously not going to be good.* Doesn't seem like there'll be a big turn/angle from the tapings either.


This is exactly what I'm worried about, infact it's what I worry about for every ROH main event now but the fact that it's Davey/Eddie/O'Reilly has me even more worried than usual. I'm sure this is what they are going to do and I'm not looking forward to it.


----------



## scrilla

10 bucks is a pretty damn good price, but it just feels too much like a throwaway PPV for me to drop money on it. I doubt anything spectacular will happen that's gonna make a difference if I watch it live or tomorrow.


----------



## Bubz

Anyone know if theres a pre-show match or anythig?


----------



## Tarfu

So this is tonight, somebody convince me to order. Don't really have anything going on tonight, but I'd also enjoy some sleep. Weakass card (though Steen vs Jacobs sounds beautiful), but I haven't watched a full event since BITW last year and I feel the need to get back in.


----------



## Ham and Egger

I hope All Night Express beat Haas/Benjamin. I'm surprised ANX hasn't won the tag titles yet!


----------



## Smith_Jensen

Good thing ANX won. They needed it more than WGTT. I hope they get the tag belts next.


----------



## Bubz

Meh opener. Haas gets some good heat I have to say. Benjamin is just a nothing wrestler to me though. Rhett is the star of ANX imo, glad they won.


----------



## Ham and Egger

LOL at the "YES" chants!


----------



## Bubz

:lmao YES chants were funny, Kevin Kelly had to basically shout over them.

I predict shitness from this match to be honest, not from Bennett but from Homicide, he really can't go any more.

CM PUNK chants again .


----------



## Ham and Egger

Homocide hit the Go2Sleep and he lost! :lol


----------



## Smith_Jensen

Awesome finish. Homicide does the GTS to spite Maria and Mikey gets a sneaking win.


----------



## Ham and Egger

Homocide needs to stay away from the mic. Motherfucker is unintelligible as hell! :lmao


----------



## Bubz

Bennett no sold the GTS!!!

EDDIE FUCKING KINGSTON!


----------



## TankOfRate

It actually took me a while to get why Homicide used the GTS. I was sitting here thinking it was a tribute to Punk being one of ROH's originals or something. The actual reason is hilarious though, haha. Great finish.


----------



## EmbassyForever

Eddie Kingston.. Boo him!


----------



## Smith_Jensen

Champion vs Champion - Davey Richards vs Eddie Kingston?


----------



## Ham and Egger

Mistah Wrasslin' Kevin Steen is here to troll!


----------



## Bubz

KEVIN FUCKING STEEN! SWERVE!!!!


----------



## DMC6162

Here we go!


----------



## Smith_Jensen

Kevin Steen is walking to the ring eating a banana. WOW


----------



## dukenukem3do

Did I miss anything


----------



## geraldinhio

I didn't bother ordering the PPV . Was there a Steen/Kingston confortation or is Jacobs/Steen next ?


----------



## EmbassyForever

Holly shit, that was awesome.
And Perkins/Red-HoT is next.


----------



## Smith_Jensen

I am really digging the ROH/Chikara relationship. The Colony for ROH World Tag Team Titles?


----------



## Ham and Egger

I missed the whole segment. What happened between Steen and Kingston?


----------



## StraightEdged

:lol at the "YES" chants


----------



## Bubz

geraldinhio said:


> I didn't bother ordering the PPV . Was there a Steen/Kingston confortation or is Jacobs/Steen next ?


Steen/Kingston confrontation. Steen basically said Kingston should team with him and take down ROH and Chikara and Eddie flipped out and said he gave everything for Chikara and Steen tried to attack him and they brawled and all these ant people came out and helped Eddie. It was a pretty good segment.


----------



## DMC6162

Ass Invader said:


> I missed the whole segment. What happened between Steen and Kingston?


-Kingston calls out Davey and Steen comes out

-Steen says Kingston has became a bitch, says they are cut from the same cloth and wants to take down ROH and Chikara together

-Steen calls Chikara a "bullshit Mickey Mouse promotion"

-Kingston gets pissed and they start brawling and it gets broken up

-Steen is about to piss on the Chikara Grand Championship and Green Ant, Fire Ant and Jigsaw come out and attack steen , Fire Ant flips onto everybody outside of the ring. then they brawl to the back.


----------



## DMC6162

Elgin is a beast.


----------



## Ham and Egger

Thanks DMC6162!

So far H.O.T. vs Perkins/Red has been the match of the night so far. Good showing from all 4 guys. That Alabama Backstabber combo is lethal!


----------



## rodzilla

Man that was an awesome match with Strong-Elgin/TJ-Red


----------



## Bubz

Awesome stuff! Just really fun, something I miss from ROH recently. I'm not usually a fan of TJP and Amazing Red but as a team they work brilliantly. HOT's finisher was SICK!


----------



## EmbassyForever

Very fun match. Next is the TV championship match.


----------



## Smith_Jensen

I think Ciampa wins the TV Title tonight.


----------



## DMC6162

:lol These yes chants are awesome hahaha.



Smith_Jensen said:


> I think Ciampa wins the TV Title tonight.


I think so too.


----------



## Bubz

I've not been too impressed with Ciampa recently but I think this could be good.


----------



## EmbassyForever

He should be. Embassy Forever


----------



## EmbassyForever

No time-limit again, NO!


----------



## Ham and Egger

Lethal just died!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## DMC6162

Ass Invader said:


> Lethal just died!!!!!!!!!!!!


 Meh match, but that looked nasty.


----------



## Smith_Jensen

Time limit draw


----------



## Bubz

Holy Shit @ that spot!

Really good match right there!


----------



## Ham and Egger

It was a decent match. It picked up during the end! I'm loving these "YES!" chants! I hope the WWE crowds use it more often! :lmao


----------



## Solid_Rob

YES! YES! YES!


----------



## EmbassyForever

Hmm, that match was good. The apron spot was fucking sick


----------



## SHIRLEY

Haven't been watching but it sounds like Steen's character is getting a bit confusing.

What's the angle supposed to be now? ROH vs. Steen vs. Chikara? Is Steen some kind of anti-tweener?


----------



## EmbassyForever

What's your thoughts on the show?
I think this is pretty good, but now we have Steen/Jacobs, Briscoes/YB, Kyle-Davey/Eddie-Cole, so it should be awesome.


----------



## C-Cool

Shirley Crabtree III said:


> Haven't been watching but it sounds like Steen's character is getting a bit confusing.
> 
> What's the angle supposed to be now? ROH vs. Steen vs. Chikara? Is Steen some kind of anti-tweener?


From his point of view, Steen vs. The World.

Anyone that sides with him is a bonus.


----------



## Bubz

Shirley Crabtree III said:


> Haven't been watching but it sounds like Steen's character is getting a bit confusing.
> 
> What's the angle supposed to be now? ROH vs. Steen vs. Chikara? Is Steen some kind of anti-tweener?


He's just trying to cause shit from what I gather.

Also I've really enjoyed the show so far. Last two matches were really good and the Bennett/Homicide match and Steen/Kingston segment were entertaining.


----------



## dukenukem3do

Is the ppv good so far because I didn't order it


----------



## DMC6162

EmbassyForever said:


> What's your thoughts on the show?
> I think this is pretty good, but now we have Steen/Jacobs, Briscoes/YB, Kyle-Davey/Eddie-Cole, so it should be awesome.


I missed ANX/WGTT. Homicide/Bennett was decent, liked the ending with the GTS. HoT/TJP and Red was awesome, fast paced and just a ton of fun, Elgin is a fucking monster. Steen and Kingston segment was great. Wasn't a fan of Lethal vs. Ciampa though, don't really like either too much, The apron spot was sick, dumb ending though.


----------



## Bubz

Glad they are having Steen/Jacobs as the second to last match, but then again I have a felling the main event won't be able to follow it at all.


----------



## Ham and Egger

This should be a great spot fest match.


----------



## Smith_Jensen

#DemBoys vs Young Bucks. Should be very fun.


----------



## DMC6162

Good match, wish it got more time though.


----------



## Bubz

Meh, it was ok I guess. Nothing to it really bar their usual signature spots. Was it just me or was the camera work fucking awful during that match?


----------



## Bubz

Here we go! KILL STEEN KILL!


----------



## DMC6162

Bubz said:


> Meh, it was ok I guess. Nothing to it really bar their usual signature spots. Was it just me or was the camera work fucking awful during that match?


Yeah, your right, the camera was TERRIBLE in that match.

Steen and Jacobs time. Can't fucking wait!


----------



## Ham and Egger

They gotta fix their production. This shit is ridiculous.


----------



## Smith_Jensen

The production is bad tonight. They played the video package during Kevin Steen's entrance.


----------



## richyque

This is my first r.o.h ppv and man does the production make ovw's production look like wwe's.


----------



## DMC6162

:lol He almost hit Cruise right in the head hahahah.


----------



## rodzilla

I love ROH but I hate their production.


----------



## EmbassyForever

Young Bucks/Briscoes.: Another good match, but could be better.


----------



## dukenukem3do

CZW have better production than ROH


----------



## richyque

Dude has one massive beer gut, lolol.


----------



## EmbassyForever

Did Jacobs spike Steen? shit, I missed it.


----------



## richyque

Jacobs botch that dive over the top rope!


----------



## SimplyIncredible

The production values of this are pathetic. 

I wont be buying again.


----------



## Ham and Egger

Jimmy tossed that beached whatle!


----------



## richyque

the production values use to be good on hd net, wonder what happened?


----------



## DMC6162

Wow, that chair spot was nasty.


----------



## EmbassyForever

What A Match.


----------



## Ham and Egger

My God, That F5 to the chairs was sick as fuck. Steen is the fucking man!


----------



## richyque

Good match and some nice spots.


----------



## Bubz

The end of that match was really fucking good.


----------



## HoHo

Couldn't find a stream so Steen won....


----------



## richyque

ho ho inc said:


> Couldn't find a stream so Steen won....


Yup, the match of the night!


----------



## DMC6162

MOTN so far.


----------



## HoHo

I knew that match would be boss, gotta download that match here when someone posts it.


----------



## Chismo

The show is pretty awesome so far. The Steen/Eddie segment was pure gold.


----------



## Ham and Egger

Mixed reaction for all 4 guys. I guess Manhattan is tired seeing them fight every main event.


----------



## Chismo

Kevin Steen is so awesome, in all areas.


----------



## EmbassyForever

Really good match.


----------



## Bubz

Fucking pathetic spot with O'Reilly DDT'ing Davey.


----------



## C-Cool

Overblown main event.

I really want Davey Richards to avoid having anymore of these matches with Edwards for a while. Move on, and leave Edwards to your training buddy.


----------



## EmbassyForever

Holly Shit!~!!


----------



## Ham and Egger

So all that action and moves where they looked they legit died, Davey jobs to a cross body? WTF!!!?


----------



## DMC6162

WOW


----------



## C-Cool

YES!

It's over! 

And Cole pins Davey! Awesome!


----------



## Manu_Styles

Adam Fucking Cole Hell Yeah What a Match!!!


----------



## richyque

That was one long ass match.


----------



## HoHo

Beautiful match between these four men.THIS IS ROH!!!!


----------



## DMC6162

YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES


----------



## Kid Kamikaze10

Wow... I give them an A+ plus for effort, but...

That match freakin' sucked. Do these guys know how to sell? I mean, they can't even do it post match.

Thank you Steen.


----------



## dukenukem3do

at least Adam Cole won a match


----------



## Bubz

That was fucking stupid nonsensical shit apart from Cole winning.

STEEN!!!


----------



## DMC6162

KILL STEEN KILL


----------



## Belisarius

Super show. Well worth 10 bucks!


----------



## Bubz

What a fucking promo! Steen is BEAST!


----------



## DMC6162

Kevin Steen the real "Best in the World".


----------



## Ham and Egger

Most of the main event was "let's just repeat what the other guy did". Shit got tiresome quick and seeing them overkill each other just to job to a crossbody really pissed me off. BTW Steen is the fucking man. "Ju-Jitsu Jerkoff trending worldwide!" :lmao


----------



## xpantherx

The last match was fucking awful apart from Cole getting the pinfall over Davey... and people try to say that John Cena has super human strength.


----------



## EmbassyForever

OK...

1 - - ANX (Rhett Titus & Kenny King) vs. WGTT (Shelton Benjamin & Charlie Haas) - ***1/4

2 - - HOMICIDE vs. MIKE BENNETT (w/Maria & Brutal Bob) - **3/4

Kingston/Steen - ****1/2


3 - - HOUSE of TRUTH (Michael Elgin & Roderick Strong w/Truth Marini) vs. T.J. PERKINS & AMAZING RED - ***3/4


4 - - ROH TV Champion JAY LETHAL vs. TOMASSO CIAMPA (w/The Embassy) - ***


5 - - ROH World Tag Team Champions THE BRISCOES (Jay & Mark Briscoe) vs. THE YOUNG BUCKS (Matt & Nick Jackson) - ***1/4 - ***1/2

6 - - KEVIN STEEN vs. JIMMY JACOBS (w/Steve Corino) – No DQ - ****

ROH World Champion Davey Richards & Kyle O'Reilly vs. "Die Hard" Eddie Edwards & Adam Cole - ****3/4. AMAZING.


----------



## KYSeahawks

Awesome Steen promo. Good main event but jeez sell something Im pretty sure Steen could use a gun and Davey would sell it for only a minute. Overall an extremely fun show with Steen vs Jacobs being the MOTN and nothing really bad.


----------



## C-Cool

Kill Steen Kill!

Great ending.


----------



## DMC6162

Thought the main event started off good, but man did it fucking draaaaaaag the second half. Glad Cole won though. Enjoyed the show overall though, Steen was worth ten dollars alone.


----------



## Bubz

EmbassyForever said:


> OK...
> 
> 1 - - ANX (Rhett Titus & Kenny King) vs. WGTT (Shelton Benjamin & Charlie Haas) - ***1/4
> 
> 2 - - HOMICIDE vs. MIKE BENNETT (w/Maria & Brutal Bob) - **3/4
> 
> Kingston/Steen - ****1/2
> 
> 
> 3 - - HOUSE of TRUTH (Michael Elgin & Roderick Strong w/Truth Marini) vs. T.J. PERKINS & AMAZING RED - ***3/4
> 
> 
> 4 - - ROH TV Champion JAY LETHAL vs. TOMASSO CIAMPA (w/The Embassy) - ***
> 
> 
> 5 - - ROH World Tag Team Champions THE BRISCOES (Jay & Mark Briscoe) vs. THE YOUNG BUCKS (Matt & Nick Jackson) - ***1/4 - ***1/2
> 
> 6 - - KEVIN STEEN vs. JIMMY JACOBS (w/Steve Corino) – No DQ - ****
> 
> *ROH World Champion Davey Richards & Kyle O'Reilly vs. "Die Hard" Eddie Edwards & Adam Cole - ****3/4. AMAZING.*


fpalm


----------



## Beatles123

The important thing is that Cole was made tonight.


----------



## EffectRaven

I don't give a shit what people say. I loved that main event I felt it was a legit ****3/4-***** match. I'm with people right now so I'll have to post more thoughts on it later


----------



## Ham and Egger

I really don't see anything special in Cole. He knows his way around the ring but I don't see they hype. O'Reilly, on the other hand, has heaps of potential. 

My favorite matches tonight was House of Truth/Red.Perkins, Lethal/Ciampa, and Steen/Jacobs.


----------



## EmbassyForever

Maybe I'm love this match so much because it's my first ROH live show, but hell, that was awesome.
I will this match again tomorrow



> EffectRaven said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't give a shit what people say. I loved that main event I felt it was a legit ****3/4-***** match. I'm with people right now so I'll have to post more thoughts on it later
Click to expand...


----------



## Manu_Styles

I´m with EmbassyForever ME was fucking awesome ****1/2 for me


----------



## xpantherx

I'll get up my personal review later, but just want to point out that Nigel was on his game tonight. He was working commentary brilliantly.


----------



## Concrete

I thought the main event was great. It is probably my MOTY so far at ****1/4. I know people are gonna say this match sucked and I could possibly see why. I enjoyed the escalation between Cole and O'Reilly. Each time when they faced off they got more and more pissed at each other. And Edwards and Richards looked like the veterans which they should of.


----------



## Bubz

Heres a quick write up of some thoughts etc...

*ROH 10th Anniversary Show*

*ANX vs WGTT*
Nothing great here, standard tag match but it was sloppy in parts. The obvious choice to open the show. ****

*Bennett vs Homicide*
Decent match, a lot better than I thought it would be. Good heel/face dynamic and Homicide was really over and he played tribute to Joe and used some of Punks stuff to get at Maria which was kind of funny, it got a great pop. Not sure what the after match stuff was supposed to ahceive but whatever. ***3/4*

Kingston/Steen segment was good and I can't wait to see them have a match.

*HOT vs TJP/Red*
Awesome stuff! Just really fun, something I miss from ROH recently. I'm not usually a fan of TJP and Amazing Red but as a team they work briliantly. Elgin looked awesome catching everyone and Roddy/TJP exchanges actually made me want to see a match between them. HOT's finisher was SICK! ****1/4*

*Lethal vs Ciampa - TV Title*
I thought this was really good despite the time limit draw which was predictable. Ciampa looked really good in control and this is the most impressed I've been with him. Sick spot on the apron and the landing for Lethal looked really bad. Good nearfall off the elbow drop and I the count out tease was well done because it seemed like they might actually do it this time because of the time limit. ****1/4*

*Briscoes vs Young Bucks*
This was ok I guess. Nothing to it really and nothing of note bar their usual signature moves. Camera work was abysmal. *****

*Steen vs Corino*
Really good match but not as good as I had hoped, I did have high expectations though. Some ace spots and the end was really great! That F5 on the chairs was ridiculous! Also :lmao at Steen encoraging the YES! chants. ****3/4*

*Davey/O'Reilly vs Edwards/Cole*
Stupid, nonsensical moves fest with no structure or flow and it went for 40 minutes. FUCK! Stupid stupid stupid! * for the fact that they went that long going full speed I guess but that doesn't mean shit.

Steen promo was amazing. Jiu Jitsu Jack off :lmao Epic!

Good enough show, I enjoyed it apart from the ME which I just wanted to fucking end after 1000 near falls and countless no selling moves and meaningless submissions and pointless exchanges.


----------



## Caponex75

Heard the main event was great. Can't wait to check out the show.


----------



## DryBones87

anyone have a pick of Steen with the tennis racket


----------



## Concrete

When someone says that the main event was * I can't take it seriously as a rating. It seems more of a way to get your point across rather than what you believe the match actually deserved.


----------



## Bubz

Well it's pretty much impossible for me to give it a rating to be honest. There was nothing in it that deserved any kind of praise apart from the fact they wrestled 40 minutes while going full speed and not botching. What rating does that deserve on it's own if the match itself was really bad? It was pretty much on the same level as Eddie/Davey III. I guess the exchanges between Cole/O'Reilly were good but they were completely lost in the shuffle of everyone just doing shit for the sake of it. There were a ton of ways they could have made this match good and a ton of storys they could have told but they didn't.


----------



## Manu_Styles

#DemBoys was trending #1 worldwide after their title match in Twitter


----------



## Concrete

I understand. There was enough in it for me to think it was a great match and not just 40 minutes of going full speed. It was on par with Davey/Eddie II for me. But I understand there will be a ton of people that think it is disrespectful to wrestling or something like that. Maybe I will dislike it at some point. As of right now though I thought this match was great and helps push Cole. And the show as a whole was really solid from my prospective. I don't think there was any match I actively disliked.


----------



## xpantherx

WGTT vs ANX (B-) - A solid tag team match to start off that turned a bit sloppy at the end. It's good to see Rhett Titus back in action. Unlike every other tag team match on the show tonight, this one actually had rules that were enforced, but I'll get to that later. WGTT both went for the surgecally repaired knee of Titus, and was the focal point of the match. ANX got the win, but I think Charlie Haas continues to shine as a great heel wrestler.

Homicide vs. Michael Bennett (C) - I kind of don't care that Bennett isn't a great wrestler. He's average at best in the ring, but he's one of the better talkers on the mic, and that makes him stand out in ROH. With Maria by his side, it makes him stand out even more as somebody who could be a legitimate future main eventer in ROH or any other company. I'm glad ROH got Homicide to come in for the 10th anniversary show, and the moment at the end when he hit the GTS in front of Maria was pretty fun.

Eddie Kingston comes out representing Chikara and calls out Davey Richards and gets Kevin Steen. Kevin Steen coming out with a tuxedo shirt and a tennis racket with Davey's face on it cracked me up. Steen and Kingston cuts an effective promo on each other and I want to see this feud go on a long way.

TJ Perkins & Amazing Red vs. House of Truth (B) - This matchup was just all out fun. Michael Elgin continues to do nothing but impress me, and this match is easily the best work that Perkins has done in the company so far.

Jay Lethal vs. Tommaso Ciampa (B-) - I'm not a fan of the ending of this match, as I feel that it weakens Ciampa's reputation to have a tie in his undefeated streak. I do, however enjoy that Ciampa clearly wrestles a different style than anyone else on the roster by dramatically slowing the pace of a match down. I think Lethal is ready to be main eventing in ROH pretty soon. That move that Ciampa hit on Lethal on the edge of the ring was epic.

The Briscoe Brothers vs. The Young Bucks (C+) - I like both of these teams, but this match never really took off for me. I'm quite tired of ROH's tag team matches going off the wall and not having any control. Whenever I watch wrestling with friends on TV or at live shows, I always have fun and make it a point to yell at the ref and tell him to "get some damn control in the match". That being said, both teams hit their usual spots, but there was no doubt that the Briscoes were going to win it.

Kevin Steen vs. Jimmy Jacobs (A) - Over the past year, I've enjoyed the hell out of the Steen/Corino/Jacobs feud, and I'm glad that the (possibly) final pay off match was extremely satisfying. The turn Jacobs made before the match was a good move, and I hope it reinvigorates his career in ROH. Steen causing chaos throughout the arena is a sight to see, and how he interacts with the environment around him is brilliant. There's a moment before the start where Steen puts his gum on top of the announce desk, and after it's all said and done and Steen leaves the chaos that he created, he walks over to the speechless announcers and retrieves his gum from the beginning. It's great character moments like that that the company as a whole needs to start doing more. Jimmy Jacobs has quite a few great moments as well, and props to him for taking the F5 onto the backs of two steel chairs.

Davey Richards & Kyle O'Reily vs. Eddie Edwards & Adam Cole (C) - I really thought that Davey and Eddie would have learned their lesson after the last 35 minute no-sellfest, but they didn't. This time, they brought in two of the younger guys to join the super hero party. Another really exhausting match with absolutely no ring psychology what-so-ever. The ending, however, was really great even though I feel it's undeserved.

After the main event, Kevin Steen interrupts a Kyle O'Reily heel turn and begins a worked shoot on Davey and how everyone knows that the main event should have been Steen vs. Davey. He also through in a fun jab at The Rock by making a "trending" joke.

Overall, the event was really good and worth the price of admission. Kevin Kelly inserting Twitter made me cringe, but Nigel McGuinness's commentary was incredibly good. The production crew continues to suffer with simple things, and makes me think that ROH should just fire everybody in the production truck and start from scratch. The crowd was amazing, and created the "YES! YES! YES! YES!" chant in between every match.

Overall Grade: B


----------



## will94

So Punk tweeted this picture a few hours ago. Nice little ROH tribute from him:









As for the show, sounds like it was a quality one, I'll have to catch a replay.


----------



## Coffey

Whenever I shit on WWE (which is often because they suck) I can just watch an ROH show and realize how much worse it could really be. 

The sooner guys like Davey Richards get out of wrestling the better. I don't like the road guys seem to be on for the future. Sheesh. Maria is legit the biggest star in Ring of Honor. That's pathetic. The only one close is Kevin Steen.


----------



## Bubz

Cool pic from Punk.


----------



## Kincaid

Man, I am so done with everything in this company that isn't Briscoes or Steen.

I LIKE Davey. As a wrestler and a person, but he's really gone overkill with this "SERIOUS WRESTLING FOCUS RAWR" nonsense. There's no emotion in any of his matches anymore. And ROH, you're making ADAM COLE the face against Richards? One of future shock had to turn heel, so you went with Kyle? Dude. Adam Cole can be an awesome heel. His CZW heel run ruled. Come on.


----------



## Beatles123

I thought the PPV was very good...I expected a bit more from Ciampa though.


----------



## NewJack's Shank

Damn I was gonna order the replay but I logged into a Facebook and I saw the results. Sounded like a good show, I read good and bad things about the Main event?


----------



## EffectRaven

Kincaid said:


> Man, I am so done with everything in this company that isn't Briscoes or Steen.
> 
> I LIKE Davey. As a wrestler and a person, but he's really gone overkill with this "SERIOUS WRESTLING FOCUS RAWR" nonsense. There's no emotion in any of his matches anymore. And ROH, you're making ADAM COLE the face against Richards? One of future shock had to turn heel, so you went with Kyle? Dude. Adam Cole can be an awesome heel. His CZW heel run ruled. Come on.


Two things:

1. If you couldn't sense any emotion in the main event then I feel sorry for you

2. Kyle isn't very like-able, I feel it makes significantly more sense to go with him turning heel over Cole


----------



## Beatles123

WillMark4NewJack said:


> Damn I was gonna order the replay but I logged into a Facebook and I saw the results. Sounded like a good show, I read good and bad things about the Main event?


There are some that complain it was spot after spot, but the pace is alright and you could tell there was a lot of effort by all 4 men.


----------



## Coffey

EffectRaven said:


> 1. If you couldn't sense any emotion in the main event then I feel sorry for you


Well then you can feel sorry for me because myself and the two friends that I watched it with (for whatever that is worth) talked about how the biggest thing holding ROH back is that there wasn't any emotion coming from _anyone_ not just those in the main. It's nothing but moves for no reason. That's it. Superkicks and no selling. That's what ROH is.

The last ROH PPV sucked and this one sucked. That was my last chance for this company. They went from, in my opinion, being the best wrestling company in the world in 2005 to being worse-than-TNA unwatchable in the span of seven years. A bunch of Chris Benoit wannabes doing fake MMA. Davey Richards is terrible. Eddie Edwards is terrible. Roderick Strong is terrible. I legit think Michael Elgin shows more than any of those guys in his three-to-four minute matches and even that wouldn't work on a bigger stage because there's not guys like Amazing Red to throw around in WWE. After Mysterio, what would he have left? Maybe in TNA if they slapped him in the X-Division or something.

Ring of Honor does not have any stars. No one on their roster knows how to tell a story or draw the crowd in or get genuine heat, babyface or heel. It's a bunch of guys doing shit that they saw on tapes and missing the entire point.


----------



## Kid Kamikaze10

Walk-In said:


> Ring of Honor does not have any stars. No one on their roster knows how to tell a story or draw the crowd in or get genuine heat, babyface or heel. It's a bunch of guys doing shit that they saw on tapes and missing the entire point.


Honestly, I'd disagree with you on the grounds of complete generalization, but here's the problem.


The guys in ROH who do know how to tell a story, draw the crowd in, and get genuine heat... Do it in other promotions.

Davey included.



The only people I could use to as proof against your claim when in ROH... Really is like Jimmy, Briscoes sometimes, Bennett sorta, and Steen.


----------



## Coffey

I've seen Davey Richards in only ROH & NJPW and he didn't do it in either federation. He's not the sort of guy that I would seek out, however, so maybe he is genuinely better elsewhere but I have certainly not seen it.

I don't think I have ever typed this sentence in my life, but I think ROH right now has several guys that would really benefit from WWE style. If you reeled them in, limited what they could do move wise and gave them shorter time limits, I honestly think they would be better off. They have talent, they're just trying to do too much and they're too worried about getting every single thing they can think of into one match and it ends up making none of the shit they do end up doing matter. Less is more.


----------



## Emperor DC

The main event was alright, but there was just no soul to the match.

Where's the passion and the feel?

Steen, Jacobs and Corino brought that because they know how to play their characters to a tee both in and out of a match. Those four got too caught up in going a bit over the top and not paying attention to the bigger picture.


----------



## smitlick

Ass Invader said:


> I really don't see anything special in Cole. He knows his way around the ring but I don't see they hype. O'Reilly, on the other hand, has heaps of potential.
> 
> My favorite matches tonight was House of Truth/Red.Perkins, Lethal/Ciampa, and Steen/Jacobs.


Thats because Adam Cole is far and away better as a heel but for whatever reason hes not being booked that way.


----------



## THANOS

Walk-In said:


> Well then you can feel sorry for me because myself and the two friends that I watched it with (for whatever that is worth) talked about how the biggest thing holding ROH back is that there wasn't any emotion coming from _anyone_ not just those in the main. It's nothing but moves for no reason. That's it. Superkicks and no selling. That's what ROH is.
> 
> The last ROH PPV sucked and this one sucked. That was my last chance for this company. They went from, in my opinion, being the best wrestling company in the world in 2005 to being worse-than-TNA unwatchable in the span of seven years. A bunch of Chris Benoit wannabes doing fake MMA. Davey Richards is terrible. Eddie Edwards is terrible. Roderick Strong is terrible. I legit think Michael Elgin shows more than any of those guys in his three-to-four minute matches and even that wouldn't work on a bigger stage because there's not guys like Amazing Red to throw around in WWE. After Mysterio, what would he have left? Maybe in TNA if they slapped him in the X-Division or something.
> 
> Ring of Honor does not have any stars. No one on their roster knows how to tell a story or draw the crowd in or get genuine heat, babyface or heel. It's a bunch of guys doing shit that they saw on tapes and missing the entire point.


You don't think Kevin Steen could be a star with his gimmick, charisma and theme song, not to mention his inring skills. All he needs to do is lose about 40 lbs, get ripped, and shave and he'll be a star!


----------



## seabs

*Sounds like every ROH iPPV from last year. Bad production/camera work and a trademark horribly worked main event that gets mixed reactions. Figured I'd just check out Steen/Jacobs and based on this thread it'll stay that away. Judging by this thread there seems to be a lot less people who got the show too.

Cole pinning Davey is odd. I mean it's great but it's way too sudden. The guy who's only on a handful of matches in the company, most of them with O'Reilly then pins the champ in the main event. Meh. At least it's better than most other finishes they could have done.*


----------



## TelkEvolon

Same old negative nancey's chipping in their 1 cent.

Great event, awesome event for $10, I can put up with any ammount of trivial errors as long as the show is still good.

Some people will just look for anything to keep something down in their mind.


----------



## benturpen

The show was booked as just outright filler, for the most part, like the product in general now. TJP & Red/HOT was fun, but other than that, they gave nothing on the undercard ANYTHING. There was nothing actively wrong with anything on the show, but looking at the two title matches... Ciampa/Lethal was the typical ROH time limit draw. Aka do nothing for 13 mins., then pick it up and go to a draw. Sometimes they do an "overtime", sometimes they do not. Briscoes/Bucks annoyed me more than anything else on the show in that sense. The Bucks have one loss in the promotion to this point, ONE, and they were hardly a threat at all in this match. It was essentially a Briscoes showcase. That one loss, btw, came to The Briscoes at GBH X, a pre-intermission "don't do too much" 13 min. sprint, and they almost had the identical match on this show. Pre-match brawl/same length sprint. JJ/Steen wasn't Corino/Steen, but good for it was, and the main was plagued by all the same things every ROH main event is now, although not near as much as Edwards/Richards from FB.

I know it's a different product now. I've accepted that. It was largely just a boring show that never held my attention.


----------



## rizzotherat

Caponex75 said:


> Heard the main event was great.


It wasnt. Same moves over and over to little or no crowd reaction.

Anyone who rated it above *** are delusional, sorry.


----------



## Beatles123

Man, aside from the main event you got a solid all-around ppv minus the technical issues...for ten bucks it was a steal.

Some people are never happy. The show wasn't perfect, but in no way deserves the hate it's getting.


----------



## Bubz

The show was good as a whole for sure. Not a bad match apart from the tag title match and the main event, but then again, they are the matches that you expect to deliver on any other show, but when it comes to an ROH show, that's almost to be expected these days.

Lethal/Ciampa, HOT/Red & TJP, and especially Steen/Jacobs were really good matches, and then you had Bennet/Homicide that was pretty entertaining. Tag Title match was just completely void of anything at all to be honest but it wasn't bad I guess, and I've already posted my thoughts on the ME.


----------



## Brigante

Lethal/Ciampa was really good, but the main event was a one star encounter? Hahahahaha.

Good Lord.



TelkEvolon said:


> Same old negative nancey's chipping in their 1 cent.
> 
> Great event, awesome event for $10, I can put up with any ammount of trivial errors as long as the show is still good.
> 
> Some people will just look for anything to keep something down in their mind.


It's always the same thing.


----------



## geraldinhio

_Ended up watching the show in the end par two or three matches. I missed ANX/WGTT and Homicide/Bennet and the main event. 

I starting watching just before TJP/Red vs HOT. Fuck Red was over like hell,didn't expect a reaction that big TBH. Really fun match with some great sequences and spots and served it's purpose perfectly with HOT going over Red. I wouldn't mind seeing Red back in ROH . He's over , still young and ROH are really missing someone like him. Have him tag with TJ as ROH seen to have nothing planned for him at all. 

Jay "Time Limit " Lethal vs Ciampa was exactly what I expected. A good match without being great with a shitty finish. Sick apron spot , no body seemed to mention Jay Lethal not seeling it what so ever two minutes later. Why not give Ciampa the belt allready on a big show to establish him. Even though he's undefeated , them squash matches aren't doing much for his credibilty ....give him the belt.

Bucks vs The Briscoes was good . Some really good character work by the Bucks . The handspring into the back rake is so awesome. Is it me or did the Briscoes look pretty bad in the match? To me the Bucks saved it from being a poor match. I rather see the Buck win the Belts before ANX , but it's been a long time coming for ANX. Too long at this stage.

Jacobs vs Steen was MOTN from what I seen. Jacobs bringing out the AOTF jacket made me mark. Some brutal spots , the spots with the guardrails were immense. LOL at the girl falling over and Steen's reaction. Much better than the Corino/Steen match IMO. The conflicting good vs Bad Jacobs and the F5 on the chairs made for an awesome finish. Great match . Steen and Jacobs are fucking awesome. 

Went to bed then after this. I'll probably watch the main event during the week if I get time. Don't think I'll like it to be honest by the sounds of it though. 

All in all , what I seen was good. Not a bad match at all and a really good tag and NO DQ match. Really solid stuff but nothing spectacular.

Didn't live up to the hype of been a 10th anniversary show though, didn't really have that special aura like past events..Though for it's price it's hard to complain.

Also the YES chants are pure gold._


----------



## Concrete

I know this may sound weird because we have completely different feelings on the main event but why can't more people be like Bubz. He said before that he really didn't know how to rate the match because he just didn't like it at all. That's like a man who only watches action films going to see an artistic movie, he wouldn't be able to flop down a critical rating because he wouldn't really give two shits about the movie or just thought it was stupid. That example can work both ways. You are either going to be on the one side that really liked this match which I am on. I am by no means going to go any higher than ****1/4 and may drop it down at some point but I did really enjoy it. Or you will be on the other side who saw it as just moves which is valid as well. I just don't like the people who shit on it and say it completely sucked and *NO ONE* should give it a good rating whatsoever because it had no story. There are definitely matches that I feel don't deserve a high rating and that I feel puzzled by when someone gives them high ratings ala this year's Elimination Chamber matches. ROH has a love it or hate it mentality right now and I wasn't high on Final Battle but I felt 10th Anniversary delivered as a whole mostly because of my feelings of the main event. If I thought it was the same as FB's main event, quality wise, then I don't think I would have thought this was as good of a show. But still for $10 I don't see how one could go wrong even if someone isn't a big fan of the main event.


----------



## geraldinhio

_I'm hearing very mixed reviews about the main event( Like any ROH main event with Edwards/Davey) some I'm gonna watch it to see what it was like. I'm just fearing it's gonna be all flash no substance like some many previous Edwards/Davey matches. Not sure how I feel about Kyle going over and I'm a big fan._


----------



## Manu_Styles

All Night Express ***
Homicide vs Mike Bennett ***1/4
Steen/Kingston segment Epic
Amazing Red & TJP vs House Of Truth ***1/2
Jay Lethal vs Tomasso Ciampa ***1/4
Briscoes vs Young Bucks ***1/2
Kevin Steen vs Jimmy Jacobs ****
Davey Richards & Kyle O´Reilly vs Eddie Edwards & Adam Cole ****1/2


----------



## Legend

Main Event reminded me of the silly Dragon Gate tag matches Gabe used to put on all the time.


----------



## rizzotherat

Manu_Styles said:


> Davey Richards & Kyle O´Reilly vs Eddie Edwards & Adam Cole ****1/2


I honestly don't know how you would defend this. ****1/2 puts it on par with some of the greatest, well structured and most heated matches of all time. 



Legend said:


> Main Event reminded me of the silly Dragon Gate tag matches Gabe used to put on all the time.


But those had heat.


----------



## Manu_Styles

rizzotherat said:


> I honestly don't know how you would defend this. ****1/2 puts it on par with some of the greatest, well structured and most heated matches of all time.
> 
> 
> 
> But those had heat.


I like Richards & Edwards being in the veterans role and the Cole/O´Reilly interaction, i miss more crowd heat, but is ny...


----------



## rizzotherat

Manu_Styles said:


> I like Richards & Edwards being in the veterans role and the Cole/O´Reilly interaction, i miss more crowd heat, but is ny...


Those roles were never really played up during the match.

For the record I really did like most of the show and worth the purchase. I am only really down the main event.


----------



## Coffey

The biggest problem as I see it is that Davey Richards is a show-opener kind of guy, so when you try to put him in 40-minute main events...welp. You get modern day ROH which is more for people that watch wrestling but care more about reading the internet than actual *WRESTLING* (as in story, drama, heat and a complete package, not just fucking moves) fans.

Hogan Vs. Andre at Wrestlemania III was in front of 78k people and the biggest move was a body slam. It's not about the moves, people, and it never has been.


----------



## Matt_Yoda

*ROH's 10th Anniversary Show*

*Quick thoughts: This was a great show for 10 bucks, easy to sit through and fun to watch, it accomplished everything it needed to and the crowd was great. Next to Homecoming 2012, this was definitely another one of ROH's stronger shows.

-ANX vs. WGTT: Decent fare here and much like I expected it to go, which is a good thing. WGTT heeled it up and ANX made the big comeback simple tag mechanics that makes for a easy match to sit through. I believe this may be Benjamin's first pinfall loss.

-Bennett vs. Homicide: This was really fun to watch, Bennett really excel in these types of matches with the right opponent. Homicide in his NBS outfit was awesome and the post match stuff was good.

-Great segment between Kingston/Steen, these guys know how to sell a story and did so very well further building towards the show in Chicago.

-HoT vs. TJP/A-Red: Hot fuck I loved this match, great match but as a Red mark it was awesome seeing the respect he got from the crowd. These teams meshed well together and was one of HoT's best matches as a unit. I can't say enough good things about this match.

-Lethal vs. Ciampa: Pretty good match even if a bit predictable, I knew that they would keep the belt on Lethal he'll probably drop it WMW. Lethal keeps the title, post match keeps Ciampa strong.

-Bricoes vs. Bucks: Good Tag match from the Briscoes/Bucks, pretty much the standard fare between these guys if you've seen their past work. Nothing mindblowing but a solid tag match.

-Steen vs. Jacobs: A decent No DQ match between these guys, I expected a bit more but I really couldn't get into this match, it was obvious Steen was going to win but the match ultimately accomplished what it needed to and that was make Steen look strong.

-Team Ambition vs. Eddie & Cole: A good main event to end the show, I really enjoyed the exchanges between the four of these guys, it shows that they've worked together countless times and stringed in some nice spots, it could've been better but it wasn't bad imo. I popped big for the surprise finish and the ending with Steen and Davey was great. I also like the seeds planted for a potential KO heel turn.


----------



## Emperor DC

Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed the event, but why not strive for better, or the best?

When the main event is one of the bigger let downs, it's a disappointment. 

Like I said, Steen/Jacobs/Corino and the opener had more feel to it than the ME, which is wrong. With the dynamics, I should have been as interested in that match as any, yet I wasn't, however, I would say that O'Reilly showed a flicker of something special in the ring, and in the post-match brief retort after refusing to shake hands, and the win could do big things for Cole.


----------



## Manu_Styles

I understand why people speak bad about the ME is ROH 101 Fans: will turn the Champion unless your name is Samoa Joe.


----------



## Kid Kamikaze10

Manu_Styles said:


> I understand why people speak bad about the ME is ROH 101 Fans: will turn the Champion unless your name is Samoa Joe.


People turned on Joe too.


But this isn't just a "I'm sick of a dominant champion" thing. This is outright criticism for the wrestler. Hell, a group of wrestlers, and how they wrestle. Not just how they are so dominant/not putting someone over.


----------



## Manu_Styles

Kid Kamikaze10 said:


> People turned on Joe too.
> 
> 
> But this isn't just a "I'm sick of a dominant champion" thing. This is outright criticism for the wrestler. Hell, a group of wrestlers, and how they wrestle. Not just how they are so dominant/not putting someone over.


I don´t know maybe is because i enjoy the current product but it seems like whatever ROH does people complain about it


----------



## -Mystery-

Manu_Styles said:


> I don´t know maybe is because i enjoy the current product but it seems like whatever ROH does people complain about it


Most of it either sucks or makes little sense so complaints are warranted.


----------



## rizzotherat

Manu_Styles said:


> I don´t know maybe is because i enjoy the current product but it seems like whatever ROH does people complain about it


That's not true there was some good still on the undercard. You are just being childish and not engaging actual points.


----------



## Manu_Styles

-Mystery- said:


> Most of it either sucks or makes little sense so complaints are warranted.


The only sucking booking i agree with is the Severn thing with Davey/Eddie and the match Richards vs Edwards III itself for the bad use of the dragon sleeper.


----------



## Coffey

Manu_Styles said:


> I don´t know maybe is because i enjoy the current product but it seems like whatever ROH does people complain about it


If their product wasn't the drizzling shits, I wouldn't complain about it. I didn't say negative things about American Dragon, Samoa Joe, Austin Aries or James Gibson during their World Title reigns because they were entertaining. But I did shit on Xavier, Roderick Strong, Eddie Edwards & now Davey Richards because they're not. It's not about some fucking internet trends. If anyone has the wool pulled over their eyes, it's you.

ROH 101 Fans. Right. 

This is what happens when the guys wrestling are the guys that grew up watching "workrate" tapes and reading Dave Meltzer star reviews. I wouldn't be surprised if Davey Richards has never seen a Bob Backlund match or Bruiser Brody match in his life. But I bet he's seen all of the Chris Benoit and Kurt Angle shit he can get his hands on.

I stand by my point that the biggest star in the company is Maria and it's not because she used to be in WWE. Hopefully Kevin Steen wins the ROH World Title and they can turn a corner.


----------



## Matt_Yoda

You forgot Dynamite Kid.


----------



## SHIRLEY

benturpen said:


> The show was booked as just outright filler, for the most part


This time of year has always been ROH's off season. The fact that they put opening acts in the main event and tag title match was a dead giveaway that this show was a "We're saving the good shit" event.

Haven't seen the show yet and, as far as choosing which matches to watch, ROH dropped the ball on making the TV title match newsworthy by not having Ciampa win.

Will watch Steen-Jacobs, the Kingston stuff, may take a look at how Red is doing these days, ANX and WGTT had a decent sports-entertainment style tag match last time - not in a huge rush to watch them curtain jerk though.


----------



## Cliffy

I don't really follow the company but from what i've seen, how is jay briscoe not their top guy ?


----------



## Coffey

Cliffy Byro said:


> I don't really follow the company but from what i've seen, how is jay briscoe not their top guy ?


The Briscoes are entertaining until the bell rings. Then they're pretty sloppy and Indyriffic™. Obviously his strong suit is his promo but even that relies on being taped, cussing and having his brother do back-up comedy relief. He's rivaled verbally by Kevin Steen, who is equally great and seems to be poised for a top run. Plus, I imagine the Briscoes don't want to be split up just for the fuck out it. They are entertaining though. Their videos kill me.


----------



## Bubz

Because he's too dedicated to teaming with Mark. The Briscoes as a team (in ring wise) aren't up to much these days, their promos are amazing and they have great characters, but their tag matches for the last year have been a bunch of nothing imo. But Jay Briscoe as a singles guy is great, I've been saying it for a few years but he's one of the most underrated singles wrestlers on the roster. He seems to be able to tell a good story in a singles match that DemBoys can't do anymore in their tags and he brings the intensity in a believable way, unlike the current main eventers.


----------



## ViolenceIsGolden

The Briscoes are like the modern day indy version of the Road Warriors. Apart they are equal to any wrestler in the world right now in a singles match. While Jay Briscoe vs. Kevin Steen for the ROH title in the future would be a great feud for promos and bloody brawls it won't happen unless Steen could find a tag partner. That's how it works, they're the Briscoe Brothers to be a tag team. Maybe in some other indy feds they could get over as singles champions but in ROH that's just how it goes.


----------



## Maradona

My God, ROH is increasingly worse, the company is in decline. I thought with this PPV would claim, but no, they ended up sinking much more, I thought that the I was going to have an epic ending and the angle between ROH and CHIKARA would have more place... But ended up doing a PPV more.


----------



## Beatles123

-Mystery- said:


> Most of it either sucks or makes little sense so complaints are warranted.


I'm sorry, but I was able to follow everything nicely...I think in times where the product lacks stars, people are more or less LOOKING or expecting to find a bad prouct and draw those conclusions easier than they would have if they wern't already searching for a negative.

There were bad things about the PPV, but it was good. To harp on the main event and disregaurd the other good matches is silly IMO. The card was enjoyable otherwise. Furthermore, people used to love Davey. He's the same as he's always been but people insist since he became champ that there was no good things about anything he ever did.

While I the think multiple kickouts get annoying, I think there WAS story to the match. Eddie/Davey trying to one-up each other, beating up the other's friend to piss them off, Cole going over and the fallout afterward for one. I do think Cole should have turned heel in stead though.


----------



## Kincaid

People who dislike ROH and saying things like 'There aren't any guys who feel like stars' and 'The influence of MMA is ruining the product'. ROH defenders are saying things like 'You're just looking for reasons to shit on it!'

Not a good sign.


----------



## KingCrash

*World’s Greatest Tag Team vs. All Night Express - **1/4*
Kind of just there for me with it being a little clunky at the end but clearly WGTT are better as heels. Little shocked ANX won considering WGTT have a title shot coming up but they clearly needed it more.

*Mike Bennett vs. Homicide - **3/4*
I hate 2009 onward lazy Homicide. Really not a fan of Mike Bennett. This was far better then it had any right to be. Crowd loved Homicide and for once recently he really seemed motivated and happy (see CZW’s latest show for the unmotivated one.)

*The House Of Truth vs. Amazing Red & TJ Perkins - ***3/4*
Very good match which showcased Red and Perkins while making sure you knew that Strong and Elgin were the better team. Loved HOT’s finisher and it wouldn’t be the worst thing in the world if HOT stayed together they go for the tag titles.

*ROH World TV Title
Jay Lethal vs. Tommaso Ciampa - **3/4*
Decent match all told but it followed the Time Limit Lethal formula of stall for 12 min then go crazy until the limit. Draw helps no one in this case; it was really time for Lethal to drop the belt and with other booking Ciampa might have come off better then he did here.

*ROH World Tag Team Titles
The Briscoes vs. The Young Bucks - ****
While it was good this might be the worst match they’ve had together in ROH going back to their Final Countdown Tour and HDNet matches. It seems like every time they get together the Briscoes get a little sloppier, Bucks get a little spottier and the match gets a little worse. Really didn’t even feel like the Bucks had a chance to win.

*No Disqualification
Kevin Steen vs. Jimmy Jacobs - ***3/4*
Didn’t think it was on the level of Corino/Steen but it go the point across that Steen’s an insane beast and in the end he could do what he had to do to win while Jimmy couldn’t. 

*Davey Richards & Kyle O’Reilly vs. Eddie Edwards & Adam Cole - ****
Good match taken as a whole but like most main events involving Davey & Eddie it definitely could have been shortened to improve it and not burn out the crowd. Didn’t help that at times they really didn’t care about O’Reilly and Cole due to them not getting established as a team before breaking up and perhaps getting burned out on Davey & Eddie together. The Cole & O’Reilly exchanges were really good though and I’m interested in the matches those two could have down the line. Cleary though they deferred to Davey & Eddie in the match and at times the breakneck overkill problem that people hate came up.


----------



## Beatles123

I can defiantly see why some people may not like it, but this was no where near the worst thing ever. The problem is that the main event feels recycled. it was fine at BITW, but people now want something fresh. Nothing wrong with that.

What is wrong is when people let the dislike for the fact the roster is small overshadow that the PPV was still good and fun. ROH will rebound eventually and there are good things to look forward to in Steen, Cole, and the Chikara angle. To say ROH is crap just because of Davey/Eddie is a bit untrue. You can still enjoy the product, just ignore Davey awhile if he isn't your thing. It will change eventually.

In my opinion, for 10 bucks the show was very good.


----------



## Matt_Yoda

Opinions are like assholes, everybody's got one.

ROH have its downs just as much as it has its ups, I've certainly seen worse promotions. If the current product isn't your cup of tea, just ignore it, end of. Better that than jumping on everything ROH and shitting on it just because you don't like it and you feel the need the ruin it for those that do or may enjoy it.


----------



## Coffey

I agree that the cost of the show was fantastic. I think ROH knows what they are and they know what a lot of their audience is. I used to think the $20 ECW PPV shows were priced great too. It's not a problem with the price. But just because the show is cheap doesn't mean that they're above warranted criticism.


----------



## Bubz

Matt_Yoda said:


> Opinions are like assholes, everybody's got one.
> 
> ROH have its downs just as much as it has its ups, I've certainly seen worse promotions. If the current product isn't your cup of tea, just ignore it, end of. Better that than jumping on everything ROH and shitting on it just because you don't like it and you feel the need the ruin it for those that do or may enjoy it.


You can't expect long time ROH fans to just ignore the company they loved for so long and not criticise it at all and discuss it's current flaws though.


----------



## SimplyIncredible

God awful production values, wont be buying again until that is fixed.


----------



## Bubz

Yeah the production was abysmal last night, but it was mainly during the Bucks/Briscoes match, jesus the camera crew should be taken out back and shot for that mess. They missed big spots that were obviously about to happen and were all over the place.


----------



## Beatles123

Bubz said:


> You can't expect long time ROH fans to just ignore the company they loved for so long and not criticise it at all and discuss it's current flaws though.


I certainly can agree. No promotion is perfect though. It's a strange thing actually because ROH is by far bigger than it's ever been, yet it seems as though people are sticklers for the classic era. Which, while understandable, is not to say the current product cannot be enjoyed, or will forever remain the way a lot of people dislike right now.

Things go in cycles. There are ups and downs and, certainly to many, ROH is in somewhat of a limbo right now. It won't always stay that way however, and there are surely things left for people to enjoy even on the current product.

Sometimes you have to take into account that new fans may be coming to ROH who really dig wshat it's doing right now. It's a change, but it doesn't have to mean the end for ROH by any stretch of the imagination.

One important thing to note is that, while you can argue they have rebuilt since '09. this Sinclair deal is a whole different animal. It could take a few years to get in full swing. They are only just now big enough to sign actual contracts. If Danielson were here in this era, who knows if he wouldn't be sign to a multi-year deal? Now that they can do that, guys they establish can stick around and build a more steady roster of talent.

The key is to realize things will not stay this way forever. When ROH turns the corner with Steen, we may very well see another golden period so to speak--it will be a slow process, but when ROH does expand the roster, it's reasonable to think they'll be able to stay afloat a lot better this time.

It's not IF, it's when.


----------



## Emperor DC

The fact that ROH's production was so awful when CHIKARA developed the best iPPV presentation I've seen from any wrestling company thus far for High Noon is saying something. 

This is not me bigging up CHIKARA because I'm a huge fan either, it's true. No cutting off of promos for videos of stupid mis-spelling of names. Presentation is a huge part of your product and last night was the worst in that regard.


----------



## Manu_Styles

I´m with Beatles123 people have no patience


----------



## Manu_Styles

DeeCee said:


> The fact that ROH's production was so awful when CHIKARA developed the best iPPV presentation I've seen from any wrestling company thus far for High Noon is saying something.
> 
> This is not me bigging up CHIKARA because I'm a huge fan either, it's true. No cutting off of promos for videos of stupid mis-spelling of names. Presentation is a huge part of your product and last night was the worst in that regard.


CHIKARA had Dave Lagana that´s the reason.


----------



## Beatles123

Again, by NO MEANS am i trying to hide the flaws. Last night was a huge failure on the production side. Then again, they aren't usually that bad. Something must have went wrong in a big way.


----------



## Ham and Egger

This was the first iPPV I bought from ROH. I should've went to the show but watching it from home was good too. I'm a casual ROH fan, I follow enough to know the basic storylines (I watch the video wires) and I think I might start buying more of their ppv's in the future. You're guaranteed a good match or two on the card.


----------



## Beatles123

Ass Invader said:


> This was the first iPPV I bought from ROH. I should've went to the show but watching it from home was good too. I'm a casual ROH fan, I follow enough to know the basic storylines (I watch the video wires) and I think I might start buying more of their ppv's in the future. You're guaranteed a good match or two on the card.


Have you been a fan long, invader?


----------



## KingCrash

Manu_Styles said:


> CHIKARA had Dave Lagana that´s the reason.


Didn't Lagana leave for TNA before High Noon? Regardless it's clear that he helped ROH's ippv coverage immensely and definitely something they need to improve immediately considering they have two more ippvs coming up.

And I understand that people need to have patience but if you don't like something it's fine to say you don't and for some ROH feels like it's been rebuilding since 09 and not much has changed.


----------



## Manu_Styles

KingCrash said:


> Didn't Lagana leave for TNA before High Noon? Regardless it's clear that he helped ROH's ippv coverage immensely and definitely something they need to improve immediately considering they have two more ippvs coming up.
> 
> And I understand that people need to have patience but if you don't like something it's fine to say you don't and for some ROH feels like it's been rebuilding since 09 and not much has changed.


Yes, i think it was one of "I had that signed before joining TNA thing"


----------



## Beatles123

KingCrash said:


> Didn't Lagana leave for TNA before High Noon? Regardless it's clear that he helped ROH's ippv coverage immensely and definitely something they need to improve immediately considering they have two more ippvs coming up.
> 
> And I understand that people need to have patience but if you don't like something it's fine to say you don't and for some ROH feels like it's been rebuilding since 09 and not much has changed.


As I said, the 2009 rebuild was undone when Sinclair came. Two different situations.


----------



## seabs

Bubz said:


> Yeah the production was abysmal last night, but it was mainly during the Bucks/Briscoes match, jesus the camera crew should be taken out back and shot for that mess. They missed big spots that were obviously about to happen and were all over the place.


*It was bad when they were doing it in between the HDNet and SBG eras. Now with SBG involved it's embarassing. I haven't watched the show but the production for every iPPV last year was shoddy at best and they were always missing spots. It's not much better on the DVD shows either. They missed spots on them last year too and the general production is horrible. It looked horrible on the TV Show when it first started up too. Might have improved on the TV Show but I have no reason to believe it will have.

Bad main event = bad perception of the show btw and a great main event = great perception of the show. That's how perception works with wrestling shows. End on a high and people go away with a good felling about the show even if everything else was so so. End on a big low that you have to sit through for 40 minutes and people go away with a negative reaction of the show. The main event is the biggest match on the card and makes or breaks the quality of the show. You can't have a great show with a poor main event.

The patience argument isn't relevant anymore. People have been using that line since 2009. It's 2012 now and they've done nothing to fix losing some of their big names to WWE and TNA. Who have they lost since 2009 that has hurt them besides Hero and Claudio who only wrestled in the tag division anyway?

I really want someone who normally presents a good, logical and thought out argument to defend the current ROH product so I can understand what they like about it and why. The people who really like the current product provide horrible arguments in favour of it. It's either "oh it's cool to complain about ROH these days" or "patience...."*


----------



## Ham and Egger

Beatles123 said:


> Have you been a fan long, invader?


I've been going to theirs shows since about 2008/2009. I'm very casual about it. I'm aware of who the guys are (because of the internet and this board and me going to the shows). It's a cheaper and times a more entertaining alternative product to get into. But I can't be bothered to buy their DVD's because I'm not a die-hard fan. But live shows and ippv's I can do.


----------



## -Mystery-

KingCrash said:


> Didn't Lagana leave for TNA before High Noon? Regardless it's clear that he helped ROH's ippv coverage immensely and definitely something they need to improve immediately considering they have two more ippvs coming up.
> 
> *And I understand that people need to have patience but if you don't like something it's fine to say you don't and for some ROH feels like it's been rebuilding since 09 and not much has changed.*


I like this analogy. ROH has been like a sports team going through a rebuilding process, but hasn't yet put together a winning formula.


----------



## Certified G

Tbh, the main event sounds awesome. 40 minutes of nonstop action is exactly the type of wrestling I love. Definitely gonna try to download this show asap, really looking forward to it.


----------



## KingCrash

Beatles123 said:


> As I said, the 2009 rebuild was undone when Sinclair came. Two different situations.


Not to long-term fans who've had to sit through both and are waiting for the company to get back on track. Not saying ROH from 09-12 hasn't had great moments; it's had some but overall it's fallen for those fans from must-see everything to catch it when they're able if they even care to.


----------



## Manu_Styles

-Mystery- said:


> I like this analogy. ROH has been like a sports team going through a rebuilding process, but hasn't yet put together a winning formula.


Yeah good analogy. They start building with HDNet but they got cut by them and now are doing the same with Sinclair, this year for example the TV Tapings found a great crowd in baltimore and the main show (The Homecoming and now the 10th Anniversary) had good matches.


----------



## Beatles123

Seabs said:


> *It was bad when they were doing it in between the HDNet and SBG eras. Now with SBG involved it's embarassing. I haven't watched the show but the production for every iPPV last year was shoddy at best and they were always missing spots. It's not much better on the DVD shows either. They missed spots on them last year too and the general production is horrible. It looked horrible on the TV Show when it first started up too. Might have improved on the TV Show but I have no reason to believe it will have.
> 
> Bad main event = bad perception of the show btw and a great main event = great perception of the show. That's how perception works with wrestling shows. End on a high and people go away with a good felling about the show even if everything else was so so. End on a big low that you have to sit through for 40 minutes and people go away with a negative reaction of the show. The main event is the biggest match on the card and makes or breaks the quality of the show. You can't have a great show with a poor main event.
> 
> The patience argument isn't relevant anymore. People have been using that line since 2009. It's 2012 now and they've done nothing to fix losing some of their big names to WWE and TNA. Who have they lost since 2009 that has hurt them besides Hero and Claudio who only wrestled in the tag division anyway?
> 
> I really want someone who normally presents a good, logical and thought out argument to defend the current ROH product so I can understand what they like about it and why. The people who really like the current product provide horrible arguments in favour of it. It's either "oh it's cool to complain about ROH these days" or "patience...."*


The big thing you and I disagree on is that 2009 upward should be what we judge the rebuild by. In my opinion, the purchase of the company sent it into a whole other rebuilding entirely.

You can dislike the main event, that's cool--but there are still positives about the company. The fact that Steen will soon get the belt to take away from Davey/Eddie awhile is good and needed for sure. The Chikara angle might also lead to an influx of new talent being around.

You seem really peeved that the company is in the situation it's in and I can understand that, but there is ALWAYS a positive. The PPV was alright if you don't like the main event. For 10$ can you really say you wasted your money?

Just because ROH might not appeal to you at this time does not make it bad. Many fans dig it. I dig it. Who knows? It might turn around for you sooner than you think. Watch it for what you DO like about it until then. 

It's going to be here tomorrow no matter what some might think of it now anyway, so my best advice to you is: If you really cannot find any joy in it, why watch it? Take a break. It will turn around in your favor one day.

I hope I didn't sound ignorant just because I am a "Newer" fan.


----------



## Phil_Mc_90

Just finished watching the show. Enjoyed the majority of it with either HoT v Red/Perkins or Steen v Jacobs being the MOTN for me.

The production was really poor last night and doesn't help them build their audience at all, I'm not expecting them to have production values equal to WWE or even TNA but it has to be better than last night.

The TV title match was good and I was even fine with the time limit, what bothered me was Lethal totally no selling the Ring Apron move, he jumped into the ring and was running around as if nothing had happened.

I enjoyed probably the first 3/4 of the main event, when watching Davey and Eddie I'm not expecting any selling because it never happens, the ending again frustrated me because it just felt underwhelming, all the big moves and then cole wins with a cross body, I would probably have even taken a roll up over it.

Davey Richards is crying out for a heel turn in my opinion, and it could be really good, him and O'Riley walking around claiming to be the only real athletes in the company and he could play up to what he said on twitter a while ago about how wrestling was something he does to pass the time between ju jitsu classes. He could be a really good heel and I don't understand why they aren't pulling the trigger, Steen is presented as the heel even though the whole crowd is completely behind him, just doesn't make sense to me.

Steen was gold tonight, his promo with Kingston was good, his match with Jacobs great and his promo with Davey the perfect way to end the show. I hope they don't rush the feud as it has the potential to be a really great long feud, there are plenty of things you can do with Steen before the match with Davey. That being said Generico is not the way to go IMO, this match should be held off till after Steen has won the belt and held it for a while, if they want to make Steen the main heel in the company then Generico should be the one to end his reign of terror.

Overall though good show, hope Red sticks around to team with Perkins more


----------



## Beatles123

KingCrash said:


> Not to long-term fans who've had to sit through both and are waiting for the company to get back on track. Not saying ROH from 09-12 hasn't had great moments; it's had some but overall it's fallen for those fans from must-see everything to catch it when they're able if they even care to.


 Unfortunately that's the result of the unexpected purchase of the company and it's timing. It sucks to wait even longer, but it's inevitable. Everything comes around eventually.


----------



## Matt_Yoda

Bubz said:


> You can't expect long time ROH fans to just ignore the company they loved for so long and not criticise it at all and discuss it's current flaws though.


Not at all, I'm" all for constructive criticism, its something to be encouraged. It's when people start craping on everything Ring of Honor does before it comes into fruition (this is a generalization of course but there is usually a large negative vibe in ROH threads).

I'm" with you I started watching ROH in 2005 (not sure if that makes me a long timer though). I like to think people wouldn't be shitting all over the product if they didn't want the company to succeed in some fashion. My overall opinion on ROH is that it isn't particularly bad, just... there. The talent delivers, the effort is there, but the presentation/mood/feel of the product cancels them out if that makes any sense.


----------



## Ham and Egger

There are bright spots in the company. I think ANX, Lethal, Elgin, and Steen makes the show worth watching. It's the same for any indy fed company. Now If I don't see those guys elevated on the card then I might have some issues with the company. lol


----------



## Tony Tornado

Those four guys in the main-event have absolutely no clue on how to work a crowd. Has there ever been a wrestler so athletically and technically gifted but at the same time so clueless as Davey Richards? For a guy who proclaims to be a "legit fighter" his bouts seem awfully choreographed. What a fucking mess of a spotfest. I don't think anyone came out of that looking like a star.

For my money, Kevin Steen is the only real star in ROH right now. I wish he would stop doing hardcore matches because I don't think there's a reason for all that violence and those risky bumps.

Also, am I the only one who thinks Shelton Benjamin is being misused? He's the best wrestler in ROH so he needs to get rid of Charlie Haas and go after the World title. There are so many possibilities for him right now.


----------



## FITZ

Beatles123 said:


> The big thing you and I disagree on is that 2009 upward should be what we judge the rebuild by. In my opinion, the purchase of the company sent it into a whole other rebuilding entirely.
> 
> You can dislike the main event, that's cool--but there are still positives about the company. The fact that Steen will soon get the belt to take away from Davey/Eddie awhile is good and needed for sure. The Chikara angle might also lead to an influx of new talent being around.
> 
> *You seem really peeved that the company is in the situation it's in and I can understand that, but there is ALWAYS a positive. The PPV was alright if you don't like the main event. For 10$ can you really say you wasted your money?*
> 
> Just because ROH might not appeal to you at this time does not make it bad. Many fans dig it. I dig it. Who knows? It might turn around for you sooner than you think. Watch it for what you DO like about it until then.
> 
> It's going to be here tomorrow no matter what some might think of it now anyway, so my best advice to you is: If you really cannot find any joy in it, why watch it? Take a break. It will turn around in your favor one day.
> 
> I hope I didn't sound ignorant just because I am a "Newer" fan.


Yes you can say that it was a waste of money if you didn't enjoy the show. If you're sitting there after the show and thinking, "Why did I buy that?" I think it's a waste of money even if you spent $1 on the show. 

I'm happy Cole went got the big pin. Didn't watch the show and don't really plan on but I'm hoping that they are actually serious about making a new star in ROH. Reviews were basically what I expected and I can probably say I would fall on the "hated" side of the main event since by the reviews I'm getting the gist of what the match was like. I've seen enough non-stop long matches with just moves to last a life time. This one doesn't sound any different from the Wolves/WGTT during Mania wekeend, or the 4-way tag match from BITW, or Eddie/Davey II.


----------



## Ham and Egger

I agree with most of the people here who say the main event was shit. I'm just sitting watching this by myself and saying "why the fuck aren't they selling these moves", "why the fuck did he lose to a cross body?". It boiled down to anything you can do I can do better drivel which took away from the match. I like the chain wrestling in the beginning but after that if went downward.


----------



## KingKicks

Watched the majority of the show but fell asleep early into the main event.

I didn't find the show all that bad from what I saw. Enjoyed Steen/Jacobs, RedTJP/HoT (who seriously impressed me as a team) and well, that was it. But I didn't find too much else that bad really...I'm sure I would have hated the main event though.


----------



## EffectRaven

> I really want someone who normally presents a good, logical and thought out argument to defend the current ROH product so I can understand what they like about it and why. The people who really like the current product provide horrible arguments in favour of it. It's either "oh it's cool to complain about ROH these days" or "patience...."


I"ll do my best and this is entirely my own opinion. 

I started watching ROH in late 09 so maybe that's why I enjoy the current product so much because I never saw the company during its "hey-day". What I like about it though is that to me atleast it's a fresh product full of young guys who reek of potential. It's chock full of wrestlers that are entertaining in my opinion like the Briscoes, Mike Bennett, Jay Lethal, Young Bucks, ANX, Kevin Steen, El Generico, Eddie Edwards, etc. that don't try too hard like in the case of WWE or TNA at times. Plus it's chock full of guys that are incredibly gifted athletes and in-ring performers.

I enjoy the fact that ROH matches are atleast in my opinion always worth watching. In my experience I haven't seen a match not including Homicide or WGTT that I didn't think was atleast fun. I like how the ROH main guys like Richards, Edwards and Strong can set an exciting pace throughout there matches so that I never grow bored. Some may say that they lack storytelling or psychology and I can completely see where they're coming from. But when I watch the matches I do see stories. I see the story of competitive athletes doing everything in their power to prove how good they are. 

Like last night, there WAS legit heat in the main event. It was an intense game of who is better and a challenge to Cole and O'Reilly to prove that they are the future of the company and can hang with Richards and O'Reilly. All of the interactions between the ex-partners felt legit heated to me, you could see it in all their faces

It may not be the traditional storytelling of a cheating heel keeping the fan favorite down, or a babyface comback, or working over a limb for half the match. But it's a valid thing. It can be a turn-off but I've found that the majority of ROH and wrestling fans as a whole really enjoy what ROH is doing right now, myself included.

But ultimately what I love about ROH is that it's just entertaining to me. And that is what Pro Wrestling is, entertainment. They put on simple and often compelling angles that lead to fun and enjoyable matches night-in and night-out. 

I'm terrible at putting my thoughts into words so I hope this suffices.


----------



## Legend

rizzotherat said:


> But those had heat.


Doesn't stop them from being equally dumb. Just because everyone's cheering whilst you're doing it doesn't negate the stupidity.


----------



## flag sabbath

I won't get a chance to watch the show this week, but the fact that everything on the undercard went 15mins or less is cause for celebration.


----------



## Beatles123

TaylorFitz said:


> Yes you can say that it was a waste of money if you didn't enjoy the show. If you're sitting there after the show and thinking, "Why did I buy that?" I think it's a waste of money even if you spent $1 on the show.
> 
> I'm happy Cole went got the big pin. Didn't watch the show and don't really plan on but I'm hoping that they are actually serious about making a new star in ROH. Reviews were basically what I expected and I can probably say I would fall on the "hated" side of the main event since by the reviews I'm getting the gist of what the match was like. I've seen enough non-stop long matches with just moves to last a life time. This one doesn't sound any different from the Wolves/WGTT during Mania wekeend, or the 4-way tag match from BITW, or Eddie/Davey II.


I can understand the main event thing. Overall, though, the event was entertaining and well worth $10 bucks. Nothing on the card is "Bad" aside from people who didn't like that one match. I think other matches and the NE combined are more than worth it because I DIDN'T feel the way you described. It's a good show as a package and steering clear of it due to a subjective opinion on one match seems like a shame to me.


----------



## Coffey

EffectRaven said:


> I started watching ROH in late 09 so maybe that's why I enjoy the current product so much because I never saw the company during its "hey-day".


That's exactly why. I have watched ROH since it's exception, so I am on the other end of the spectrum. I have a feeling that anyone defending current ROH is in the exact same boat as you. Or just haven't been watching wrestling as a whole very long either. It's why they're more tolerable of shit like no-selling and killing each and every fucking move. Superplex onto a guard rail? TWO COUNT! Tombstone Piledriver into a Die-Hard Driver? TWO COUNT. It's ridiculous.


----------



## Beatles123

Walk-in, I don't think that has anything to do with it. I've seen plenty of old ROH stuff and can still enjoy it now. The difference is back then you had more star power to draw you into the match to the point you didn't care as much. There was still plenty of no-selling and over the top stuff.


----------



## Coffey

Beatles123 said:


> Walk-in, I don't think that has anything to do with it. I've seen plenty of old ROH stuff and can still enjoy it now. The difference is back then you had more star power to draw you into the match to the point you didn't care as much. There was still plenty of no-selling and over the top stuff.


Watching it now, on DVD, is not the same as watching it when it happened and was new. Someone could get an ECW DVD from 1997 or 1998 and watch it now and not see what the big deal was. Back then though? Different story.


----------



## Ham and Egger

I just think if they paced themselves and transition between the moves and such the main event would've been better. They need to stop pretending they're Japanese because newsflash: it only works in Japan!


----------



## Gingermadman

Only thing I enjoy about ROH nowadays is Elgin and the Steen / Corino / Jacobs storyline.

I've never seen what people like about Strong, Richards or Edwards. I was never a huge fan of ROH to begin with but they used to have some really great talent.


----------



## antoniomare007

was the crowd dead for the mainevent again?


----------



## Manu_Styles

antoniomare007 said:


> was the crowd dead for the mainevent again?


Is NYC of course they were dead most of the ME.


----------



## flag sabbath

Since when were NYC crowds notoriously quiet?


----------



## xpantherx

antoniomare007 said:


> was the crowd dead for the mainevent again?


At the beginning, everyone except Cole was booed when being introduced.


----------



## Beatles123

Walk-In said:


> Watching it now, on DVD, is not the same as watching it when it happened and was new. Someone could get an ECW DVD from 1997 or 1998 and watch it now and not see what the big deal was. Back then though? Different story.


Not entirely true. I can CERTAINLY watch ECW now and see a completely different aura. Right away you can tell the difference. Just because I wasn't there doesn't mean that I can't distinguish ENOUGH of of a difference to tell if there is one.

Yeah, ROH had a certain flair to it back then because of the freshness of the talent and matches, but it doesn't make ROH today look "Bad" by comparison. What you do see though is a thin roster and that's the main problem. It isn't that Davey can't have good matches, it's that he's done everything there is to do with the top guys they have so naturally it gets stale. This problem can be fixed with the angles they are running right now.

When you say that Davey/Eddie no sell, everyone does that. It's just that Davey for whatever reason can't space it out enough in between (as Invader said.) The other wrestlers are fine.

Now, when I watch WWF, I can immediately see how far they have fallen in WWE--ROH, on the other hand, is just in a rut. It will pass soon enough. Even if it doesn't as soon as people want, it's always gonna be there for you to come back to when they get better for ya.


----------



## seabs

Beatles123 said:


> The big thing you and I disagree on is that 2009 upward should be what we judge the rebuild by. In my opinion, the purchase of the company sent it into a whole other rebuilding entirely.


*Did it really make that much difference though? They had that big run with barely any shows when the sale first happened as down time but it's still the same product really. Same wrestling style, same lack of newly established stars, etc. They've had since 2009 to establish new stars to replace the likes of Danielson and Nigel. Nearly 4 years now. They've made Davey and Eddie ROH stars and that's it. 2 new top names in 4 years? That's even worse than WWE over the last 4 years. *



> Just because ROH might not appeal to you at this time does not make it bad. Many fans dig it. I dig it. Who knows? It might turn around for you sooner than you think. Watch it for what you DO like about it until then.


*That's the thing. There's barely anything about the current product that I do enjoy. Like I look at the card for the TENTH YEAR ANNIVERSARY SHOW and nothing excites me. Heck only match really interests me. It's not because they have a bad roster either. They just don't make me care about them and their matches.*



> It's going to be here tomorrow no matter what some might think of it now anyway, so my best advice to you is: If you really cannot find any joy in it, why watch it? Take a break. It will turn around in your favor one day.
> 
> I hope I didn't sound ignorant just because I am a "Newer" fan.


*I haven't watched anything since Final Battle. I WANT ROH to be great though. That's why I bitch and complain about how bad it's got. I went through every 2006 show last year and it was the hottest thing going back then. Fresh and exciting with all the variation you could want on the cards. ROH SHOULD be great. It really shouldn't be at this low level that it is right now and I want it to be up to the quality that it can and more importantly should be at. *


EffectRaven said:


> I"ll do my best and this is entirely my own opinion.
> 
> I started watching ROH in late 09 so maybe that's why I enjoy the current product so much because I never saw the company during its "hey-day". What I like about it though is that to me atleast it's a fresh product full of young guys who reek of potential. It's chock full of wrestlers that are entertaining in my opinion like the Briscoes, Mike Bennett, Jay Lethal, Young Bucks, ANX, Kevin Steen, El Generico, Eddie Edwards, etc. that don't try too hard like in the case of WWE or TNA at times. Plus it's chock full of guys that are incredibly gifted athletes and in-ring performers.
> 
> I enjoy the fact that ROH matches are atleast in my opinion always worth watching. In my experience I haven't seen a match not including Homicide or WGTT that I didn't think was atleast fun. I like how the ROH main guys like Richards, Edwards and Strong can set an exciting pace throughout there matches so that I never grow bored. Some may say that they lack storytelling or psychology and I can completely see where they're coming from. But when I watch the matches I do see stories. I see the story of competitive athletes doing everything in their power to prove how good they are.
> 
> Like last night, there WAS legit heat in the main event. It was an intense game of who is better and a challenge to Cole and O'Reilly to prove that they are the future of the company and can hang with Richards and O'Reilly. All of the interactions between the ex-partners felt legit heated to me, you could see it in all their faces
> 
> It may not be the traditional storytelling of a cheating heel keeping the fan favorite down, or a babyface comback, or working over a limb for half the match. But it's a valid thing. It can be a turn-off but I've found that the majority of ROH and wrestling fans as a whole really enjoy what ROH is doing right now, myself included.
> 
> But ultimately what I love about ROH is that it's just entertaining to me. And that is what Pro Wrestling is, entertainment. They put on simple and often compelling angles that lead to fun and enjoyable matches night-in and night-out.
> 
> I'm terrible at putting my thoughts into words so I hope this suffices.


*All I basically got was that you enjoy a poor wrestling product. 

Which is fine btw as long as you can accept that it's bad and don't try to convince people that it is good.

The "newer ROH fans are more favourable to the current product than older ROH fans" line I don't believe is entirely correct. I think it's more of a case of them not watching much alternative wrestling that is actually worked properly either currently or from the past. I can't think of anyone who's seen Jerry Lawler, Bill Dundee and Lance Russell from Memphis in the 80's and enjoys Davey Richards matches in ROH. They know that wrestling is and can be better so they don't settle for the sub standard matches that ROH present as being great. 

It's not a "modern Indy culture" thing either. There's plenty of Indies that can work sensical and entertaining matches. Shit, even PWG does it with most of the ROH roster. Take Edwards vs Generico from ASW last year. What are the chances that match would have gone down the same path if it happened in ROH? It would have lost all story and structure and turned into Eddie not selling and doing too many moves. Youtube James Mason vs Dean Allmark and watch all their matches from ASW:UK last year and see how easy it is to combine the modern style and work old school angles that in turn get a big reaction from an Indy crowd.*


----------



## antoniomare007

Manu_Styles said:


> Is NYC of course they were dead most of the ME.





xpantherx said:


> At the beginning, everyone except Cole was booed when being introduced.


:lmao

that's just sad.


----------



## KingCrash

Manu_Styles said:


> Is NYC of course they were dead most of the ME.


They were burned out and part of that was them getting tired after yelling YES! YES! YES! the entire show, but the other two thirds were because clearly they're tired of Davey & Eddie in the main event in combination with each other and the fact that while they cheered Cole they clearly had little to no emotional investment on FutureShock battling each other. Not hard to understand considering they never got that big win, the only matches it seemed like they won were against the jobber Bravado Brothers and when they split them up prematurely Cole is a guy whose one maybe two singles matches ever while Kyle right now comes off as Davey's nut polisher.


----------



## Beatles123

Seabs said:


> *Did it really make that much difference though? They had that big run with barely any shows when the sale first happened as down time but it's still the same product really. Same wrestling style, same lack of newly established stars, etc. They've had since 2009 to establish new stars to replace the likes of Danielson and Nigel. Nearly 4 years now. They've made Davey and Eddie ROH stars and that's it. 2 new top names in 4 years? That's even worse than WWE over the last 4 years. *
> 
> 
> That's the thing. There's barely anything about the current product that I do enjoy. Like I look at the card for the TENTH YEAR ANNIVERSARY SHOW and nothing excites me. Heck only match really interests me. It's not because they have a bad roster either. They just don't make me care about them and their matches.
> 
> 
> *I haven't watched anything since Final Battle. I WANT ROH to be great though. That's why I bitch and complain about how bad it's got. I went through every 2006 show last year and it was the hottest thing going back then. Fresh and exciting with all the variation you could want on the cards. ROH SHOULD be great. It really shouldn't be at this low level that it is right now and I want it to be up to the quality that it can and more importantly should be at. *
> 
> *All I basically got was that you enjoy a poor wrestling product.
> 
> Which is fine btw as long as you can accept that it's bad and don't try to convince people that it is good.
> 
> The "newer ROH fans are more favourable to the current product than older ROH fans" line I don't believe is entirely correct. I think it's more of a case of them not watching much alternative wrestling that is actually worked properly either currently or from the past. I can't think of anyone who's seen Jerry Lawler, Bill Dundee and Lance Russell from Memphis in the 80's and enjoys Davey Richards matches in ROH. They know that wrestling is and can be better so they don't settle for the sub standard matches that ROH present as being great.
> 
> It's not a "modern Indy culture" thing either. There's plenty of Indies that can work sensical and entertaining matches. Shit, even PWG does it with most of the ROH roster. Take Edwards vs Generico from ASW last year. What are the chances that match would have gone down the same path if it happened in ROH? It would have lost all story and structure and turned into Eddie not selling and doing too many moves. Youtube James Mason vs Dean Allmark and watch all their matches from ASW:UK last year and see how easy it is to combine the modern style and work old school angles that in turn get a big reaction from an Indy crowd.*


Seabs, what you need to realize is that you can't just say someone enjoys something for the wrong reason. Yeah, he and I like the product and we reserve the right to call it good because we DO believe it is. It's different now and that turns people off. That's the main issue we seem to be having here. Does different equal bad? That is a subjective matter. People like you who have seen ROH then are naturally going to feel that you have a right to feel angry, but that is only a matter of opinion, not fact. People just have different periods in the company they enjoy right now.

You asked what they've done since 2009--what they've done is they were forced to scrap the direction they were headed in after the company was taken over. They only started to build and then they had to knock it down again. You can't look at 2009 and carry it over to 2012 because the fact that they were bought out DURING the time of rebuild was bad timing, and it postponed it longer. I will tell you the TV show has been amazing in recent weeks in my book and many others, and now we ARE seeing them make new guys. Steen...the new tag teams...Cole...Elgin (WHO IS BEING BUILT FANTASTICLY)--So I think you can agree they are in a better spot in terms of rebuilding than they were in 2009 using JERRY LYNN! I mean, come on, it might have taken a while but they're getting close. I'm sorry if you, personally, don't like them but a lot of us do. I see Elgin as being a STAR in the making.

Also, I watch plenty of alternative wrestling, so I think thanks kind of an unfair assessment of a fan. We all love the same product no matter which era we like or don't.


----------



## Coffey

Seabs said:


> I can't think of anyone who's seen Jerry Lawler, Bill Dundee and Lance Russell from Memphis in the 80's and enjoys Davey Richards matches in ROH. They know that wrestling is and can be better so they don't settle for the sub standard matches that ROH present as being great.


This is pretty much it for me, exactly. This sums it up. Why accept mediocrity when I have seen great? That's not just Ring of Honor exclusive, however, that's for any professional wrestling promotion, including WWE, Impact Wrestling and all the rest too.



Beatles123 said:


> We all love the same product no matter which era we like or don't.


It's actually the exact opposite of this, but whatever.


----------



## Manu_Styles

KingCrash said:


> They were burned out and part of that was them getting tired after yelling YES! YES! YES! the entire show, but the other two thirds were because clearly they're tired of Davey & Eddie in the main event in combination with each other and the fact that while they cheered Cole they clearly had little to no emotional investment on FutureShock battling each other. Not hard to understand considering they never got that big win, the only matches it seemed like they won were against the jobber Bravado Brothers and when they split them up prematurely Cole is a guy whose one maybe two singles matches ever while Kyle right now comes off as Davey's nut polisher.


Maybe but i look Baltimore crowd and then NYC crowd and is like Sun and Moon.


----------



## Beatles123

Walk-In said:


> This is pretty much it for me, exactly. This sums it up. Why accept mediocrity when I have seen great? That's not just Ring of Honor exclusive, however, that's for any professional wrestling promotion, including WWE, Impact Wrestling and all the rest too.


Understandable. I just find that people may be at times looking too hard for greatness and can't simply sit back and appreciate it. Not every match has to BE five stars--and I'm not trying to defend ROH beyond a certain limit--I just think if you are pining for the early days of ROH that much, EVERYTHING will look pale by comparison. The fact is in those days you had arguably the greatest wrestling talents of this generation. So, to compare Elgin to Nigel is a bit of a stretch but by no means should say that Elgin can't be a star in his own right. You have to realize, you were handed legends back then. These guys still need to MAKE theirs, but it doesn't mean you can't enjoy watching them do it.

I do.


----------



## Matt_Yoda

This is going to turn in another pro ROH vs. anti ROH thread I see it now.

Whether or not a product is good or bad is subjective, a term that seems to be lost here whether for or against the current product. If the product was shit, ROH wouldn't be in business nor would any company in any industry. If they're pulling in business then they must be doing something right. It's not about what worked in the past and I loved it back then, it's about finding out what will work for the present and future.


----------



## Coffey

Beatles123 said:


> Understandable. I just find that people may be at times looking too hard for greatness and can't simply sit back and appreciate it. Not every match has to BE five stars


To be fair, a big part of the problem with ROH in the past was that every match WAS trying to be 5-stars. It hurt the show back then, since it fucks up the flow of the show and tires the crowd out. But it also hurts the show now because the bar has been set too high. Just like the bar was set too hard in other federations doing garbage/hardcore wrestling. Where do you go from people being thrown off of scaffolds or through flaming tables or in exploding ring matches? When you start breaking out the light tubes, thumb tacks, fire & barbed wire just to be the normal, there's obviously a problem. It's the same thing in ROH only instead of table spots and chairs to the head, it's time limits and 2-counts with neck drops and MMA movez~!

You know what ROH could really use right now? A fuckin' big-ass monster that just squashes mother-fuckers. Just a big dude, like Sid, that comes out, hits three moves, Powerbombs a dude, gets the win, then goes to the back. He's not trying to get star ratings for his matches. He's just a guy that is going to win the damn match.


----------



## seabs

Matt_Yoda said:


> This is going to turn in another ROH vs. IWC thread I see it now.
> 
> Whether or not a product is good or bad is subjective, a term* that seems to be lost here whether for or against the current product. If the product was shit, ROH wouldn't be in business nor would any company in any industry. * If they're pulling in business then they must be doing something right.


*TNA.

There's nothing wrong with saying you enjoyed matches like the Final Battle main event but to say that they were good, even great matches is the problem. They weren't good wrestling matches. They were good exhibitions of moves and workrate but don't tell me that it was a great match when it wasn't. Their is some subjectivity in the perception of how good a match was based on quality of working a wrestling match but not that much for people to try and claim that Final Battle was a really well worked match. The subjectivity is how much you enjoy it. There's nothing wrong with enjoying an exhibition like that but don't try and claim that it was a well worked match when it clearly wasn't. That's what annoys me. People who can't accept that the style isn't badly worked matches that people are more than entitled to call bad matches.*



Walk-In said:


> You know what ROH could really use right now? A fuckin' big-ass monster that just squashes mother-fuckers. Just a big dude, like Sid, that comes out, hits three moves, Powerbombs a dude, gets the win, then goes to the back. He's not trying to get star ratings for his matches. He's just a guy that is going to win the damn match.


*That's what Elgin should be but instead his matches with Redwood turn into 10 minute back and forth matches like every other match is rather than one guy destroying the other.*


----------



## Manu_Styles

That depends of everybody taste for matches, i can´t watch memphis matches for example it bored the hell out of me. I can enjoy good wrestling for that? What´s good or bad wrestling?


----------



## Tony Tornado

Matt_Yoda said:


> This is going to turn in another pro ROH vs. anti ROH thread I see it now.
> 
> *Whether or not a product is good or bad is subjective, a term that seems to be lost here whether for or against the current product. If the product was shit, ROH wouldn't be in business nor would any company in any industry.* If they're pulling in business then they must be doing something right. It's not about what worked in the past and I loved it back then, it's about finding out what will work for the present and future.


This is completely wrong. I can give you a thousand examples of crappy movies that make money and with wrestling is the exact same thing. If there's a market for something that's not completely saturated it doesn't matter if the product is good or not.

I don't believe everything is subjective. There are norms and standards which need to be taken into consideration and if those standards are broken it needs to be for some very good reason. I can't find a decent explanation for kicking out of a hundred german suplexes, slap-kick combos and coming even stronger after being in a ankle lock or boston crab for 1 minute. Wrestling is supposed to be a simulation of a fight and Davey and the rest of his buddies are continuously ignoring the basic rules of the game in selling and pacing. I get that no-selling can make a match more exciting but it should be limited to a few occasions and only on big matches, otherwise it makes everything look cheap and unimportant.


----------



## Coffey

You either know how to work, or you don't. It doesn't have anything to do with the era, the company or the moves used. You can either work, or you can't, in the most basic sense of the phrase. Davey Richards does not know how to work. That is the problem. I don't know if he's just bought into his own hype or what but somewhere along the way, he forgot to learn the shit that draws money.

Remember when C.M. Punk came to WWE and Triple H & Shawn Michaels said he doesn't know how to work? The internet went into an uproar over it and thought that Punk was being buried. But working on TV for WWE is a different beast than working a 15 minute match in an Indy fed. You have to learn how to always face the hard camera. You have to learn how to repeatedly bounce back up like a pinball to sell the moves of the babyface during the comeback. There's a lot of different things. Chris Jericho (I think that's who it was) talks about it in his book. That's why guys that do know what they're doing still have to usually go to FCW (or OVW back then) for a tune-up.

However, Davey is the epitome of someone that is just trying to mimic the shit that he has seen. He is doing it all without a rhyme or reason though. It's just "I bet this will look cool" so he does it. You don't just do a Plancha for no reason, you make it mean something (as an example that Raven has used). Have the guy run away from you a few times or something first, so it's your way of catching him. Then it makes sense.

A perfect example that has been used before is the whole Dragon Sleeper shit between Davey Richards and Eddie Edwards at the last PPV. I think that sums them both up completely. They just don't fucking get it.


----------



## jawbreaker

okay, here's my thoughts. first, match by match.

*ANX/WGTT:* Titus is awesome. a bit more selling would have been nice, but he (the babyface) let himself get worked over to build heat for a comeback. note that WGTT had more heat than any other heel act all night (Steen is not a heel). this is not just because they suck and everyone hates them, it was largely thanks to Titus letting them get heat by working him over. but though it was fairly well structured, the match was not all that great for several reasons: a) Haas had absolutely no intensity in his workover, nothing heelish apart from the fact that he was going after Titus' knee, b) King's hot tag was kind of weak, c) Benjamin botched a whole lot and tried to do holds that weren't holds, d) WGTT refused to bump convincingly (Haas on Titus' clothesline to the outside to set up the finish is a big one).

*Homicide/Bennett:* kind of seemed like they weren't sure what to do. Homicide looks like he can barely move, or doesn't really want to. hard to believe he's the same Homicide from 05/06.

*Red & TJP/HOT:* pretty fun. Strong and Perkins made me want to see them wrestle each other. TJP is so good in the ring, if only he had just a little bit of charisma. Red was a lot crisper than when he was in PWG last December too. It wasn't fantastic, but it was fun for what it was and made me want to see more, though Elgin kind of disappeared a whole lot. can't remember much from this match which isn't really a good thing, but I remember enjoying it.

*Ciampa/Lethal:* frustrating as hell. really really good in parts, really shitty in others. I fucking hate the 15 minute time limit with a babyface champ. it could be a great heat mechanic for a heel like Ciampa, or even better, Bennett, but it seems like they're too scared to drop it off Lethal for reasons I can't figure out. they're pushing him as equal to Richards, he can afford a loss to Ciampa. the time limit draw helps nobody and seems like they're stalling the angle.

*Briscoes/Bucks:* the Briscoes need to turn heel again. sign to WWE or somewhere that will teach them how to work a tag match. watch Rhett Titus a whole bunch. fuck, I don't know, just quit doing exactly what they did here. I said when this match was announced that it would be shitty unless the Briscoes bothered to sell for the Bucks and make them look good. they didn't. the Bucks never at any point seemed like a threat to the belts. their offense works when their opponents let it work, not when they get beaten up for the first third of the match. the Briscoes offense is only interesting when it comes off a hot tag, and you can't have a hot tag without any heat. and you can't have any heat when you don't let the Bucks have a long control segment. the Bucks, as much as I love them are not super well rounded and if they're in there with a team that isn't very good, like the Briscoes, then they are liable to have weak matches.

*Steen/Jacobs:* felt like it was missing something important. the whole "evil" storyline doesn't make a whole lot of sense any more, because Jacobs can come out as AOTF Jacobs, but then feel a whole bunch of regret and start like crying or something when he uses the spike? the character dynamics didn't make any sense, Jacobs didn't feel likeable, the match was slow and lacked heat, there wasn't a ton of drama, it just wasn't all that good. There were some nice touches, but the story felt incredibly muddled and I don't know, or particularly care, where they go from here. What I would have loved to see would have been Jacobs dropping the fur coat and turning on Corino and then he and Steen do a solid beatdown, but no, they couldn't actually change anything up.

*Edwards & Cole/Richards & O'Reilly:* the only person who made this worth watching was Cole (and I guess O'Reilly). Edwards was totally uninteresting in every possible way, and Richards seemed like he had no clue where he wanted to take the match. They could have told a story, and when Cole and O'Reilly were in the ring, they did, because they had some really solid facial expressions and actually got over the dislike between the two of them. but everything Davey and Eddie did was heatless, got nothing over, furthered no stories, and did not create one of its own. it went too long, was disorganized, had tons of shit that looked way too choreographed, and did not really play off of any stories heading into the match.

I did love O'Reilly's facial expressions after the match. He's a natural cocky heel, and while Cole has probably been better as a heel, he's also shown that he can work face as well, and I'm willing to give him a chance, especially with him getting the pin on Davey (which would have been better if he'd actually hit him with his finisher that Kelly put over on commentary, as well as on TV, but it still kind of worked).

It could have been structured so much better, in such a way so as to make it compelling, though. For example, here's something I thought of in about two minutes: keep Davey and Eddie apart from each other for the first bit, let O'Reilly and Davey do a big workover on Cole, then Eddie makes the hot tag and beats down O'Reilly, who eventually tags in Davey, he and Eddie go back and forth for a while into the big finishing stretch which ends with Cole pinning Davey with his new finisher.


----------



## Beatles123

Seabs said:


> *That's what Elgin should be but instead his matches with Redwood turn into 10 minute back and forth matches like every other match is rather than one guy destroying the other.*


He did squash guys for a good while. It was getting time to put him in actual matches. Grizzly, i feel, is actually a better wrestler than to just be a joke character. I don't think he's being used that way anymore. It's kinda like Santino's thing: They just wanted to tease a shock win. Elgin's been a monster since and he does it in actual good matches too.


----------



## Matt_Yoda

Seabs said:


> *TNA.
> 
> There's nothing wrong with saying you enjoyed matches like the Final Battle main event but to say that they were good, even great matches is the problem. They weren't good wrestling matches. They were good exhibitions of moves and workrate but don't tell me that it was a great match when it wasn't. Their is some subjectivity in the perception of how good a match was based on quality of working a wrestling match but not that much for people to try and claim that Final Battle was a really well worked match. The subjectivity is how much you enjoy it. There's nothing wrong with enjoying an exhibition like that but don't try and claim that it was a well worked match when it clearly wasn't. That's what annoys me. People who can't accept that the style isn't badly worked matches that people are more than entitled to call bad matches.*


You're subscribing to point I'm" trying to make. When I personally say a match is good or great I based it off personal enjoyment (subjectivity), not the actual logistics of the match itself (although I may use those logistics to back why I prefer a certain match). If someone said "Richards/Edwards III" is a 5-Star Match, would you disagree with them? Of course you would because what you consider a 5-Star is vastly different from theirs, thus your metric for reviewing a match is different. It's a broad argument as to what qualifies as a "great pro wrestling" match even with the core fundamentals considered, you know that.


----------



## jawbreaker

well then you can't say "it was good because I enjoyed it," because quality really isn't subjective. You can say you enjoyed it so long as you recognize that it was not a well-worked match and don't act like it is. That's what The Corre does and nobody has any problems with him or anything he says.


----------



## Matt_Yoda

Tony Tornado said:


> This is completely wrong. I can give you a thousand examples of crappy movies that make money and with wrestling is the exact same thing. If there's a market for something that's not completely saturated it doesn't matter if the product is good or not.
> 
> I don't believe everything is subjective. There are norms and standards which need to be taken into consideration and if those standards are broken it needs to be for some very good reason. I can't find a decent explanation for kicking out of a hundred german suplexes, slap-kick combos and coming even stronger after being in a ankle lock or boston crab for 1 minute. Wrestling is supposed to be a simulation of a fight and Davey and the rest of his buddies are continuously ignoring the basic rules of the game in selling and pacing. I get that no-selling can make a match more exciting but it should be limited to a few occasions and only on big matches, otherwise it makes everything look cheap and unimportant.


Can you really call Pro Wrestling un-saturated though? I would argue that its oversaturated in terms of appeal simply because indy wrestling is already a niche within a niche industry.

Again man, that is subjective what you may consider a crappy movie may be gold to someone else hence it selling. Wrestling does have core fundamentals yes, you concisely pointed out what you look for in a wrestling match but someone else may find that nonstop style exciting that's all I'm" saying.


----------



## USAUSA1

Little tired of ROH fans shitting on WGTT. Haas been one of the best act for the last 3 months. Plus, ROH like booked WGTT in these long matches. They weren't train that way by the WWE. No WGTT match should last more than 15 minutes. Personally, WGTT would fit more with New Japan than Ring of Honor.


----------



## Beatles123

jawbreaker said:


> well then you can't say "it was good because I enjoyed it," because quality really isn't subjective. You can say you enjoyed it so long as you recognize that it was not a well-worked match and don't act like it is. That's what The Corre does and nobody has any problems with him or anything he says.


I disagree. There are different opinions for everything. For example, I actually like Johnny ace as a character and others say he's a terrible heel. What constitutes a good match is in the eye of the beholder.


----------



## Matt_Yoda

jawbreaker said:


> well then you can't say "it was good because I enjoyed it," because quality really isn't subjective. You can say you enjoyed it so long as you recognize that it was not a well-worked match and don't act like it is. That's what The Corre does and nobody has any problems with him or anything he says.


"One man's trash is another man's treasure"

When determining quality unless there is some scientific metric scale to match the industry it suits, I would argue that there is some degree of bias when someone says "A is better than B." For instance, you may dislike Lucha Libre but if So and so said that a specific match from CMLL was the greatest thing since slice bread, listing his reasons why and you go and watch the match and was not impressed. Does it devalue his opinion that it was a great match?


----------



## jawbreaker

USAUSA1 said:


> Little tired of ROH fans shitting on WGTT. Haas been one of the best act for the last 3 months. Plus, ROH like booked WGTT in these long matches. They weren't train that way by the WWE. No WGTT match should last more than 15 minutes. Personally, WGTT would fit more with New Japan than Ring of Honor.


I agree that a big problem with WGTT's ROH run has been the way they've been booked, but even their shorter matches have often been really bad (vs. Cabana/Generico at Tag Team Turmoil, vs. Briscoes in Toronto, vs. Briscoes at Final Battle). And Haas has been better lately, but that's like saying syphilis is better than AIDS.


----------



## jawbreaker

Matt_Yoda said:


> "One man's trash is another man's treasure"
> 
> When determining quality unless there is some scientific metric scale to match the industry it suits, I would argue that there is some degree of bias when someone says "A is better than B." For instance, you may dislike Lucha Libre but if So and so said that a specific match from CMLL was the greatest thing since slice bread, listing his reasons why and you go and watch the match and was not impressed. Does it devalue his opinion that it was a great match?


no, because the conventions of lucha are very different from the conventions of American wrestling, and with my lack of knowledge of what makes a match good in lucha libre, I would be poorly qualified to judge the quality, and thus would neither take issue with his evaluation nor try and push my own.

conventions are everything in pro wrestling, and that's what those of us who say Richards matches are bad are judging them by. if you want to take issue with the conventions, then talk about that, that might be a discussion worth having. but when people say a wrestling match is good or bad, they're judging it by what has constituted a good professional wrestling match for the last fifty-plus years, and what the job of a professional wrestler means. if you think that a match that is bad according to those conventions was good, then please tell us what alternate conventions you are judging it by, otherwise _*you are wrong.*_


----------



## C-Cool

Walk-In said:


> You know what ROH could really use right now? A fuckin' big-ass monster that just squashes mother-fuckers. Just a big dude, like Sid, that comes out, hits three moves, Powerbombs a dude, gets the win, then goes to the back. He's not trying to get star ratings for his matches. He's just a guy that is going to win the damn match.


...Repackaged Brodie Lee?


----------



## Tony Tornado

Matt_Yoda said:


> Can you really call Pro Wrestling un-saturated though? I would argue that its oversaturated in terms of appeal simply because indy wrestling is already a niche within a niche industry.
> 
> Again man, that is subjective what you may consider a crappy movie may be gold to someone else hence it selling. Wrestling does have core fundamentals yes, you concisely pointed out what you look for in a wrestling match but someone else may find that nonstop style exciting that's all I'm" saying.


How many alternatives are there to WWE? TNA is the only one. How many alternatives are there to ROH? PWG, Chikara? 

The quality of a product is determined by how succesfully it is at what it established as a goal. Pro-wrestling matches have very well defined terms that measure its quality: flow, crowd enjoyment, believability (is that a word?), technical execution...

You may enjoy a bad match or movie (as I do) but quality is another thing, quality is not subjective.


----------



## jawbreaker

People really need to shut up with this bullshit about how 05-06 ROH had way more finisher kickouts and was nothing but moves all the time. I've gone from Enter the Dragon to Chi-Town Struggle in the last month and a half or so and it's nothing like today. People structured matches, built to big spots, let each other get over, and generally provided a more entertaining product with better quality matches, without sacrificing athleticism and stiffness.

For example, let's take Steel Cage Warfare. On that show, the one before Final Battle, there was...

- a big feud-ending cage match between two factions, one face, one heel, between whom there was significant heat.

- the reignition of a bitter blood feud, treated as just that, with no pretensions about both guys suddenly liking each other. also featured some vicious limb work and excellent selling (though it was probably the result of a legit injury).

- a sudden heel turn that made sense, was executed well, received tons of heat from the crowd, and was worked seamlessly into the match in which it took place.

- a somewhat short title match that didn't try to do anything crazy but still managed to be very compelling, featuring excellent action, character work, and long-term selling.

- a semi-comedic tag title match that, while not excellent, was still fun to watch.

- an angle that tried to make someone look unbeatable (too bad it was Ricky Reyes)

- a spotty opening tag match to get the crowd into it

It was a beautifully structured card, every match was given enough time to do what it was supposed to, every character after the third match got time to get over, the heels acted heelish, the faces let them get heat, there was long-term selling, people got over without the need for any gimmicky bullshit or even strike battles. I think there might have been two on the entire show, probably in Joe/Lethal and Corino/Homicide. By contrast, there were probably at least five in last night's main event.

I honestly don't know how someone can watch old ROH, recognize what was good about it, and then argue that 2012 ROH isn't missing any of that.


----------



## Beatles123

If I don't think the movie is bad, it IS Subjective.

I thought the Sgt. Pepper movie was great...look it up.


----------



## Beatles123

jawbreaker said:


> People really need to shut up with this bullshit about how 05-06 ROH had way more finisher kickouts and was nothing but moves all the time. I've gone from Enter the Dragon to Chi-Town Struggle in the last month and a half or so and it's nothing like today. People structured matches, built to big spots, let each other get over, and generally provided a more entertaining product with better quality matches, without sacrificing athleticism and stiffness.
> 
> For example, let's take Steel Cage Warfare. On that show, the one before Final Battle, there was...
> 
> - a big feud-ending cage match between two factions, one face, one heel, between whom there was significant heat.
> 
> - the reignition of a bitter blood feud, treated as just that, with no pretensions about both guys suddenly liking each other. also featured some vicious limb work and excellent selling (though it was probably the result of a legit injury).
> 
> - a sudden heel turn that made sense, was executed well, received tons of heat from the crowd, and was worked seamlessly into the match in which it took place.
> 
> - a somewhat short title match that didn't try to do anything crazy but still managed to be very compelling, featuring excellent action, character work, and long-term selling.
> 
> - a semi-comedic tag title match that, while not excellent, was still fun to watch.
> 
> - an angle that tried to make someone look unbeatable (too bad it was Ricky Reyes)
> 
> - a spotty opening tag match to get the crowd into it
> 
> It was a beautifully structured card, every match was given enough time to do what it was supposed to, every character after the third match got time to get over, the heels acted heelish, the faces let them get heat, there was long-term selling, people got over without the need for any gimmicky bullshit or even strike battles. I think there might have been two on the entire show, probably in Joe/Lethal and Corino/Homicide. By contrast, there were probably at least five in last night's main event.
> 
> I honestly don't know how someone can watch old ROH, recognize what was good about it, and then argue that 2012 ROH isn't missing any of that.


No one is saying it isn't Doesn't mean it isn't good as it is. it's not AS GOOD right now, but not unwatchable by any means.


----------



## jawbreaker

Neutronic was a big fan of saying that sort of thing and I saw it somewhere in the thread. Took me a while to write because I kept going and writing other things as well.


----------



## Kid Kamikaze10

Beatles123 said:


> If I don't think the movie is bad, it IS Subjective.
> 
> I thought the Sgt. Pepper mobie was great...look it up.



No it's not.


When your claims go beyond your own personal enjoyment, then that armor of subjectivity is gone.

If your opposition no longer has to read your mind to say and prove that you are wrong, then subjectivity can no longer protect your claim. You have to back it up.


"I don't like it" is a personal opinion.

"This is a terribly made movie" is something you might want to explain if someone disagrees.

So that's why you see people asking why others are saying this Main Event is 5 stars. They have strikes against it that they want refuted, if possible.

If not, then honestly, it's not a five star. Five star should mean a nigh-perfect match. No botches that directly hamper the match, clear emotional arc, story build up, and psychology, crowd response. etc. etc.


----------



## Beatles123

And then whoever it is can disagree just as quickly. Which does not make them wrong, nor I. It means we have different tastes.


----------



## KingCrash




----------



## ViolenceIsGolden

Instead of getting so serious and frustrated over ROH or putting on the "I told you so" shtick my approach to the situation is ROH being used in a analogy is that ROH should be like a gateway drug. If you don't know much about wrestling outside of WWE and/or TNA and want something better as far as the wrestling aspect goes with wrestlers you've never seen before and want something you could follow and invest time into then this is probably a really good wrestling show for you.

The problem is there's too many people with complex opinions on what ROH should be or what pro wrestling in general should be and it's really not that complicated. You watch the show, follow it, and like it or you just move onto whatever it is you think is better whether it's PWG, New Japan, Triple A, NOAH, Dragon Gate, or Chikara.

If you don't like ROH then you don't like it. It's not like WWE or TNA where one thing is good and 10 things are all wrong, boring, and stupid. In ROH you get what you get. It's a real pro wrestling company not over the top sports entertainment or in TNA's case wannabe sports entertainment. The aspect of the Sinclair deal is to expose more homes with cable or satellite to what we have already been watching for years now.

Hopefully that sums it up.


----------



## Concrete

I'm just going to throw out my rating for that Main Event because this entire conversation has made me hate EVERYTHING! I liked the main event. I thought the O'Reilly and Cole parts were handled well with the escalation. Then I didn't think Eddie and Davey were trying to do horrible kick-outs as much. I thought that the fact that Davey and Eddie making the former partners of Future Shock their bitches while looking each other down was nifty. Now with all this talk I'm probably just gonna say I wasn't paying attention to the match maybe. I'm not a huge ROH supporter, I just thought the match was good. Now this thread makes me question everything again. Damn. I'll watch it again at the end of the year and see if I should add it to my list. Hopefully WXW's 16 Carat Tournament will come out in a couple of weeks and I can watch matches again and not wonder, do I enjoy this match and/or is this match actually good. Then life will be simpler and I don't have to question my existence and feel like poo.


----------



## ViolenceIsGolden

The biggest problem too is a lot of people don't have stable, confirmed, strong opinions about "what wrestling should be like" and what it is like to them now. They go by comparing things today in WWE, TNA, ROH, and other indy companies to ECW, attitude era WWF, and things their online "friends" told them to check out because it got 5 stars or was so awesome. A lot of people just go out of their way to complicate things because their lives suck already anyways and they probably are unhappy and hate themselves in real life so it translates into a big pile of shit when it comes to their opinions about how "this company sucks" and whaaa whaaa whaaa. This directly relates to trolling, tools, iwc drama like ROH sucks/ROH defender stuff and so on.


----------



## KingCrash

ViolenceIsGolden said:


> The biggest problem too is a lot of people don't have stable, confirmed, strong opinions about "what wrestling should be like" and what it is like to them now. They go by comparing things today in WWE, TNA, ROH, and other indy companies to ECW, attitude era WWF, and things their online "friends" told them to check out because it got 5 stars or was so awesome. A lot of people just go out of their way to complicate things because their lives suck already anyways and they probably are unhappy and hate themselves in real life so it translates into a big pile of shit when it comes to their opinions about how "this company sucks" and whaaa whaaa whaaa. This directly relates to trolling, tools, iwc drama like ROH sucks/ROH defender stuff and so on.


So I didn't like so-and-so in the main event on a wrestling show = I hate myself? Think you're taking this discussion a little too seriously.


----------



## Bubz

Saying this main event was a great pro wrestling match is like saying that Transformers III is a great movie. It just isn't. This current ROH main event style is like the equivilent of Michael Bay movies. They simply aren't good, well made movies at all. You might think the explosions look cool but wheres the story? Wheres the heart? The emotion? The SENSE?!


----------



## Matt_Yoda

Despite seeing the argument(s) of some, apparently mine is out of the realm of possibility so I guess we'll have to agree to disagree I guess. I still don't know what objectively constitutes a "great wrestling match." I mean its not like pro wrestling is a legit sport based on points and/or other objective criteria to base performance. These arguments do nothing but rile people up, I wager we'll argue about the same things come Wrestlemania Weekend.


----------



## Kid Kamikaze10

Matt_Yoda said:


> I mean its not like pro wrestling is a legit sport based on points and/or other objective criteria to base performance.


However, it is a performing art, as much as pretty much everyone else in the performing art world would NOT want to admit that. (and vice versa) 

And most performing art have a WAY higher standard on what is considered good and bad.


Why is it bad to apply just a fraction of the standards those other forms hold?


----------



## ViolenceIsGolden

KingCrash said:


> So I didn't like so-and-so in the main event on a wrestling show = I hate myself? Think you're taking this discussion a little too seriously.


All I'm saying is people should find a good stable reason to hate something but unfortunately the only criteria required is band wagon hating because it's not the WWE.


----------



## Matt_Yoda

Kid Kamikaze10 said:


> However, it is a performing art, as much as pretty much everyone else in the performing art world would NOT want to admit that. (and vice versa)
> 
> And most performing art have a WAY higher standard on what is considered good and bad.
> 
> 
> Why is it bad to apply just a fraction of the standards those other forms hold?


Its not bad in the slightest, standards are great imo because it means you have interest or some sort of investment and on the other side, it pushes companies to compete on the level their fanbase has set for them. It is when those standards start to become so high that you completely disregard any positives the product has. I'm" not saying that one shouldn't criticized the product, everything is subject to criticism at any point however one can mistake bias for objectivity and that is where the issue comes in imo.


----------



## Bubz

ViolenceIsGolden said:


> All I'm saying is people should find a good stable reason to hate something but unfortunately the only criteria required is band wagon hating because it's not the WWE.


No one HATES ROH, just dislike the current ROH main event style of match. And you obviously didn't read this thread or the posts explaining why people are displeased with ROH's current product if you think it's just bandwagoning. There are legit complaints and criticisms but you, like some of the other ROH fans, refuse to acknowledge those complaints and dismiss people as bandwagoners.


----------



## KingCrash

ViolenceIsGolden said:


> All I'm saying is people should find a good stable reason to hate something but unfortunately the only criteria required is band wagon hating because it's not the WWE.


Because of course we're all slurping to the WWE product as a whole. Not like anyone hated the last ppv or anything. 

The whole reason most of us are in the Other Wrestling section is because we wanted an alternative to WWE or wanted to watch wrestling that clicked with us. And we want ROH or whatever to be good but if we don't like a match, show or the direction in general why shouldn't we say so as fans if we have an opinion on it. Clearly you can't stand WWE and TNA and have no problem expressing it so why is it any different if jawbreaker says WGTT is terrible or Bubz says he didn't like the main event or I say CZW maybe has had the worst string of world champions in a long time?


----------



## antoniomare007

Beatles123 said:


> I disagree. There are different opinions for everything. For example, I actually like Johnny ace as a character and others say he's a terrible heel. What constitutes a good match is in the eye of the beholder.


That's two different things.

I think the point Seabs and jawbreaker are trying to make is that anyone can have an opinion on the quality of a match, but there's certain things that a pro wrestling match was meant to have since it's inception and that through the years have pretty much maintained in the mindset of the majority of fans and most wrestlers.

If you liked or loved a match that had a ton of useless and pointless moves that didn't ignite a crowd, a very shaky structure, lacked emotional attachment and didn't have much drama, that's fine (we are gonna disagree about it but that's the fun part of being a fan). But to say that's a well worked pro wrestling match is not true. It's not like saying Jeepers Creepers is a modern day classic, it's like saying a movie with bad lighting, terrible editing, iffy acting and a dry ending is modern day classic (oh, wait :side...there's nothing wrong with you liking that movie, but that's just not what a movie is meant to be.

PS: that last paragraph was not about the mainevent from this show, I haven't seen the match and don't intend doing it. I'm just trying to explain the point me and other people have.


----------



## ViolenceIsGolden

KingCrash said:


> Because of course we're all slurping to the WWE product as a whole. Not like anyone hated the last ppv or anything.
> 
> The whole reason most of us are in the Other Wrestling section is because we wanted an alternative to WWE or wanted to watch wrestling that clicked with us. And we want ROH or whatever to be good but if we don't like a match, show or the direction in general why shouldn't we say so as fans if we have an opinion on it. Clearly you can't stand WWE and TNA and have no problem expressing it so why is it any different if jawbreaker says WGTT is terrible or Bubz says he didn't like the main event or I say CZW maybe has had the worst string of world champions in a long time?


I just wanna know where this drama fest over the current ROH product started. There is a direction with everything right now. Sure it's not the most amazing thing and I didn't bother watching the ippv either but given a couple of months or maybe just a couple of weeks I can say that things will pick up again. If everybody was praising ROH a year or two ago and started promoting the ippv's constantly then it should be no different now. Nobody here could explain how the situation right now in ROH is any different than it's ever been. Most of the complaining is exaggerated drama to get hits on their website, youtube, or stir up a entertaining conversation on a forum like this one.

It's really not as bad as it seems. If you can't give ROH a chance like I am giving them to get better than you might as well stop watching completely.


----------



## Ali Dia

ViolenceIsGolden said:


> I just wanna know where this drama fest over the current ROH product started. There is a direction with everything right now. Sure it's not the most amazing thing and I didn't bother watching the ippv either but given a couple of months or maybe just a couple of weeks I can say that things will pick up again. If everybody was praising ROH a year or two ago and started promoting the ippv's constantly then it should be no different now. Nobody here could explain how the situation right now in ROH is any different than it's ever been. Most of the complaining is exaggerated drama to get hits on their website, youtube, or stir up a entertaining conversation on a forum like this one.
> 
> It's really not as bad as it seems. If you can't give ROH a chance like I am giving them to get better than you might as well stop watching completely.


Drama fest? ROH has been really dull for a while. Most guys just dont exude any form of personality which makes it tough to get behind. If you actually take a second to think back to the previous ROH "greats" you think of guys like Punk, Joe, Danielson, Aries, Nigel etc. They werent just guys who could wrestle well, they could talk and had a charisma and character which made you feel one way or another about them. On top of that the ROH mainevent style has become so overkill its not funny. I cant remember the last ROH show i was genuinely excited about and that's damning when compared to say PWG where I'm essentially excited about every show they put on.


----------



## Tony Tornado

Look, I want ROH to be good. I like most of the show and I know the main-event scene will get better when Kevin Steen is in it because he can't and won't work a 40 minute spotfest like Davey and Eddie can. Until then I'll still get annoyed at their no-selling, choreographed sequences, lack of psychology and exagerated slap and kick exchanges. When that happens I'll come here to bitch about it and I'll feel better knowing that there are other people that feel the same way I do.


----------



## Kincaid

ViolenceIsGolden said:


> I just wanna know where this drama fest over the current ROH product started. There is a direction with everything right now. Sure it's not the most amazing thing and I didn't bother watching the ippv either but given a couple of months or maybe just a couple of weeks I can say that things will pick up again. If everybody was praising ROH a year or two ago and started promoting the ippv's constantly then it should be no different now. Nobody here could explain how the situation right now in ROH is any different than it's ever been. Most of the complaining is exaggerated drama to get hits on their website, youtube, or stir up a entertaining conversation on a forum like this one.
> 
> It's really not as bad as it seems. If you can't give ROH a chance like I am giving them to get better than you might as well stop watching completely.



You think there's drama because you like the product and you're used to people supporting it. People naturally don't take note off opinions they agree with. Now that the sentiment as turned, it's more noticeable to you. 

And no, I will not "give ROH a chance". Because it's a business that makes money. If it wants my support, and my money again, it's going to have to put on a show I enjoy more. I'm not friends with anybody in ROH. I'm not going to support it just for the sake of supporting it.


----------



## wildpegasus

Man, absolutely incredible main event. Very well structured with strong psychology. Not perfect but very smart intense wrestling. A lot of the complaints are non existant in this match.


----------



## Bubz

wildpegasus said:


> Man, absolutely incredible main event. *Very well structured with strong psychology*. Not perfect but very smart intense wrestling. A lot of the complaints are non existant in this match.


Not sure if serious...


----------



## rizzotherat

wildpegasus said:


> Man, absolutely incredible main event. Very well structured with strong psychology. Not perfect but very smart intense wrestling. A lot of the complaints are non existant in this match.


Is this a joke? 

How can a match that mainly takes place in silence and has very little selling be "well structured with strong psychology."



wildpegasus said:


> A lot of the complaints are non existant in this match.


This has to be a troll line. Also your username isnt lost on me.


----------



## Rah

KingCrash said:


>


I truly don't want to be just another negative dick but I just thought I'd add my opinion on this video seeing I'm probably one of the few here that hasn't been keeping up with the RoH product. 

To someone who has given up on RoH (after finding healthier alternatives) I can safely say that that promo did _nothing_ in drawing me back and could also venture in saying that I'd be more sure in giving in if that was to be the future of RoH.

I haven't, obviously, watched the PPV's main event but it seems weird to me that he seems completely fine after his match - no noticeable selling or physical exhaustion (though that could simply be because I don't know the match, so I'll leave that out of my criticism). That aside, why is he not feeding any emotion into that promo? _He pinned Davey Effing Richards_ - the guy who supposedly holds the most coveted prize in all of wrestling. He proved the haters wrong. Shouldn't he be feeling on top of the world? I mean the basic premise of the promo was that his career was now reaching new heights yet he had about as much emotion in saying it as he would reading a grocery list.

I realise RoH focuses on their in-ring work (read that with as much irony as you wish) and are not fully story-line based (in their actual product outlook) but is it too much to ask for someone to at least show a tiny bit of legitimacy in their own words? Were those even his own words - because they definitely felt shallow enough to be a script written by someone else.

It's a problem I have with a lot of wrestling nowadays - so don't see this as just another blind hatred of RoH - but I just cannot believe in something someone says if they don't show any believability in it, themselves. I'm not expecting an Oscar-worthy performance, as I know they do not have the training (or talent) for it, but just some sense of legitimacy in a promo is needed to make me actually care and not wish to fast-forward until something else catches my eye.

I'm sure his in-ring work is fine (I haven't seen enough of it to offer a comprehensive rating) but, ffs, I really do not want to have to wake up once a week and know I'll have to sit through one of his promos building up a "significant" PPV match when I watch a RoH weekly. Especially considering I don't have many reasons to look forward to it, already.


----------



## aeris

Finally finished watching it. It was good overall but the TV title ending was just stupid, I get that they didn't want to end Ciampa's streak but why didn't they just put the belt on him? Thought the tag title match was good but was a bit disappointing. Cole pinning Richards was great and having O'Reilly being a douche was pretty good too, but they kind of ruined the whole 'young wolves rising' shtick by having Steen come out and overshadow it all by going at Richards, and I don't think that match should have been the main event. TJ/Red vs HoT was the match of the night to me. I did love Steen calling Chikara a Mickey Mouse promotion then having the Colony come out. I'm liking Haas a lot more as a heel. Did like the show, won't be in a rush to get the DVD though.


----------



## scrilla

wildpegasus said:


> Man, absolutely incredible main event. Very well structured with strong psychology. Not perfect but very smart intense wrestling. A lot of the complaints are non existant in this match.


:kobe

anyway some people on this forum need to take a logic and critical thinking class. all statements are either true or false. so when someone says the main event was a great match it's either true or false. there's no subjectivity in statements like that. we can debate the degree of greatness that person means in order to clarify exactly what they mean by great, before we declare the statement true or false, but that's just for understanding purposes. you can say that you enjoyed the main event and again that's either a true or false statement because you did or you didn't. all this truth is subjective bullshit needs to die ASAP. ROH's quality has deteriorated, you still enjoy it. stop getting so defensive like we're verbally abusing your grand mother, it's a fucking wrestling company.

as for the show itself. I downloaded it because it didn't look worth the price given the main event/the card as a whole generally looked like filler. I enjoyed a lot of the show although I was quite let down by Briscoes/YBs. I didn't expect it to be great or anything, but I found to be even worse than I expected. as you can see I'm a huge Briscoes mark, but their match quality don't exactly match their promo quality lately.

thought the opener was decent for a WGTT match. Haas is pretty good as a heel. Benjamin is still shit though. Bennett/Homicide was fun for the nostalgia/Punk spots. for some reason I didn't think HoT/RedTJP was as good as some here. maybe I should go back and rewatch it, but I'm not a huge fan of Perkins. for whatever reason I just didn't care about him or Red. it wasn't a bad match or anything by any means I just didn't come across with as much high praise as I see others expressing for this one. thought it was pretty forgettable. pretty much the sentiments on the TV title match as those that have been expressed. as per usual with Lethal draws it's 3 quarters filler and then a nice stretch to close it out. the whole time limit thing really should be used on a heel not a babyface. you'd think Cornette would know this, but I'm starting to think he's lost his touch.

I already touched on the Briscoes match. nothing special, pretty disappointing etc. etc. could've at least had Jay get some mic time after the match given that they've been with the company since day one. Steen/Jacobs wasn't THAT impressive to me for a hardcore SPOTZ~! fest. it was a little too slow although I guess it did tell a story somewhat. I thought Jacobs was gonna turn on Corino when he revealed the AOTF jacket, disappointed he didn't. finally the main event was the same fucking garbage spotfest we've all come to expect from an ROH main event lately. too long. no flow. no story. no drama. just emotionless MOVEZ, CHOPZ AND STIFF KICKZ~! I guess Cole winning is a positive, but it was completely unconvincing tbh. more of a fluke than anything. not gonna complain too much as I knew exactly what I was getting into when I tortured myself by watching it. I did enjoy the guy yelling out Terry Funk ain't wear no mouth piece in the middle of the match though. 

the Steen/Kingston segment was fucking great. probably the highlight of the show. hope they feud as well as Kingston/Davey since at least Davey won't be able to have his usual garbage match against Kingston. Kyle's heel turn at least made him _somewhat_ interesting. he's been cutting some of the most charismaticless awkward promos I've ever seen leading up to this show. then of course Steen managed to save the show from ending on a completely shit note with his promo at the end. Steen was really the star of the show. everything about him was fucking awesome down to his tuxedo shirt and Richards tennis racket.

it was probably the most enjoyable show since I started watching ROH again although that's not saying much. still felt like nothing more than filler which is why I didn't pay for it, plus the main event was shit. show was still plagued by constant no selling and that stretches across pretty much every match including the Steen one. if these guys just sold the moves properly they'd probably only have to do half as much and the matches would be much better. also someone within the company needs to realize that every fucking main event doesn't have to be 40(+) mins . Davey's style is bad enough when it goes on for 40 minutes or more for no reason it just makes it tiresome as well. every main event doesn't have to be some kind of "epic" or whatever they're going for. again all around not a bad show, but still suffering from glaring weaknesses.

edit: also the production was fucking SHIT. worst I've ever seen from ROH. random video packages/replays going off. missed spots, missed entrances. video packages with no sound. at one point I could hear a guy talking about The Rock, not sure if it was someone in the truck or what. but it wasn't Nigel or Kelly, nor was it something from the crowd. just someone calmly talking.


----------



## serenity4now

Hello is there anyone out there that knows the name of the entrance song that Amazing Red used at the 10th anniversary show if anyone could help me out with this it would be MUCH APPRECIATED thank you very much


----------



## TelkEvolon

Rah said:


> I truly don't want to be just another negative dick but I just thought I'd add my opinion on this video seeing I'm probably one of the few here that hasn't been keeping up with the RoH product.
> 
> To someone who has given up on RoH (after finding healthier alternatives) I can safely say that that promo did _nothing_ in drawing me back and could also venture in saying that I'd be more sure in giving in if that was to be the future of RoH.
> 
> I haven't, obviously, watched the PPV's main event but it seems weird to me that he seems completely fine after his match - no noticeable selling or physical exhaustion (though that could simply be because I don't know the match, so I'll leave that out of my criticism). That aside, why is he not feeding any emotion into that promo? _He pinned Davey Effing Richards_ - the guy who supposedly holds the most coveted prize in all of wrestling. He proved the haters wrong. Shouldn't he be feeling on top of the world? I mean the basic premise of the promo was that his career was now reaching new heights yet he had about as much emotion in saying it as he would reading a grocery list.
> 
> I realise RoH focuses on their in-ring work (read that with as much irony as you wish) and are not fully story-line based (in their actual product outlook) but is it too much to ask for someone to at least show a tiny bit of legitimacy in their own words? Were those even his own words - because they definitely felt shallow enough to be a script written by someone else.
> 
> It's a problem I have with a lot of wrestling nowadays - so don't see this as just another blind hatred of RoH - but I just cannot believe in something someone says if they don't show any believability in it, themselves. I'm not expecting an Oscar-worthy performance, as I know they do not have the training (or talent) for it, but just some sense of legitimacy in a promo is needed to make me actually care and not wish to fast-forward until something else catches my eye.
> 
> I'm sure his in-ring work is fine (I haven't seen enough of it to offer a comprehensive rating) but, ffs, I really do not want to have to wake up once a week and know I'll have to sit through one of his promos building up a "significant" PPV match when I watch a RoH weekly. Especially considering I don't have many reasons to look forward to it, already.


I don't see where you're coming from with the no emotion, the dude can hardly take the smile off of his face, his seems so excited by the possibiblies.

That is legitimacy, he doesn't need to stumble around, pretending to be beat and acting up a script to how you feel a character might play it out in a situation like that.

He is a dude over the moon with his win, going home after getting some time to get himself together. It's not like it was directly after the match or anything.

Trivial complaints about a 50 second promo. I understand it is a legit gripe for you and that you're not some mindless hater. But my gripe is people wanting something they can believe or that is believable by asking for something that is fictitious or fake. Wanting reality from fantasty. Right up there with people calling no-selling unrealistic.


----------



## Manu_Styles

That is the kind of things i don´t understand, you can complain about matches after watched it because everybody has different taste, but this is a 50 seconds promo seems ilogical to me complain about that.


----------



## TelkEvolon

Manu_Styles said:


> That is the kind of things i don´t understand, you can complain about matches after watched it because everybody has different taste, but this is a 50 seconds promo seems ilogical to me complain about that.


Well also, if it was a Japanese style "Straight to the media room" promo, I would be more harsh, but this looks like it was some time after the match.


----------



## Manu_Styles

TelkEvolon said:


> Well also, if it was a Japanese style "Straight to the media room" promo, I would be more harsh, but this looks like it was some time after the match.


Looks like it was when he was leaving the building yeah


----------



## serenity4now

Hello is there anyone out there that knows the name of the entrance song that Amazing Red used at the 10th anniversary show if anyone could help me out with this it would be MUCH APPRECIATED thank you very much,i have literally been looking for hours PLEASE HELP


----------



## Manu_Styles

serenity4now said:


> Hello is there anyone out there that knows the name of the entrance song that Amazing Red used at the 10th anniversary show if anyone could help me out with this it would be MUCH APPRECIATED thank you very much,i have literally been looking for hours PLEASE HELP


Ask Red himself in twitter
https://twitter.com/#!/AmazingRed1


----------



## Chismo

People need to realize that this was an absolutely acceptable show for only $10. Yes, we can do an autopsies left and right, but that's the bottom line. Personally, I would feel like a total asshole for bitching and moaning about the show, because it matches the price, IMO.


----------



## Certified G

Just finished watching the main event. I thought it was an enjoyable match. It has some good action in it, I thought it was pretty cool when Edwards launched Cole over the top rope onto Richards/O'Reilly, and doing a Moonsault himself after it.

I didn't enjoy it as much as I thought I would, for one, I thought there were too many chop/punch sequences in this match. And the ending wasn't really impressive or anything.
I'm still a big Davey Richards supporter, I just love his style and his intensity. I don't really care about him not selling anything (I understand it can bother others to no end), I just think his matches are awesome due to his aggresiveness in the ring.

Also I really don't like O'Reilley, not sure what it is, maybe the fact he looks like a Bushwacker.. Maybe it's because he seems to act like Davey Richards too much for my liking.
All in all it was an enjoyable match with some entertaining spots, I could've done with about 5 or 10 minutes less though.


----------



## serenity4now

I DID ! does anyone know reds new theme from the 10th anniversary


----------



## aeris

serenity4now said:


> I DID ! does anyone know reds new theme from the 10th anniversary


No. Now stop asking.


----------



## JoseDRiveraTCR7

scrilla said:


> :kobe
> 
> anyway some people on this forum need to take a logic and critical thinking class. all statements are either true or false. so when someone says the main event was a great match it's either true or false. there's no subjectivity in statements like that. we can debate the degree of greatness that person means in order to clarify exactly what they mean by great, before we declare the statement true or false, but that's just for understanding purposes. you can say that you enjoyed the main event and again that's either a true or false statement because you did or you didn't. all this truth is subjective bullshit needs to die ASAP. ROH's quality has deteriorated, you still enjoy it. stop getting so defensive like we're verbally abusing your grand mother, it's a fucking wrestling company.
> 
> as for the show itself. I downloaded it because it didn't look worth the price given the main event/the card as a whole generally looked like filler. I enjoyed a lot of the show although I was quite let down by Briscoes/YBs. I didn't expect it to be great or anything, but I found to be even worse than I expected. as you can see I'm a huge Briscoes mark, but their match quality don't exactly match their promo quality lately.
> 
> thought the opener was decent for a WGTT match. Haas is pretty good as a heel. Benjamin is still shit though. Bennett/Homicide was fun for the nostalgia/Punk spots. for some reason I didn't think HoT/RedTJP was as good as some here. maybe I should go back and rewatch it, but I'm not a huge fan of Perkins. for whatever reason I just didn't care about him or Red. it wasn't a bad match or anything by any means I just didn't come across with as much high praise as I see others expressing for this one. thought it was pretty forgettable. pretty much the sentiments on the TV title match as those that have been expressed. as per usual with Lethal draws it's 3 quarters filler and then a nice stretch to close it out. the whole time limit thing really should be used on a heel not a babyface. you'd think Cornette would know this, but I'm starting to think he's lost his touch.
> 
> I already touched on the Briscoes match. nothing special, pretty disappointing etc. etc. could've at least had Jay get some mic time after the match given that they've been with the company since day one. Steen/Jacobs wasn't THAT impressive to me for a hardcore SPOTZ~! fest. it was a little too slow although I guess it did tell a story somewhat. I thought Jacobs was gonna turn on Corino when he revealed the AOTF jacket, disappointed he didn't. finally the main event was the same fucking garbage spotfest we've all come to expect from an ROH main event lately. too long. no flow. no story. no drama. just emotionless MOVEZ, CHOPZ AND STIFF KICKZ~! I guess Cole winning is a positive, but it was completely unconvincing tbh. more of a fluke than anything. not gonna complain too much as I knew exactly what I was getting into when I tortured myself by watching it. I did enjoy the guy yelling out Terry Funk ain't wear no mouth piece in the middle of the match though.
> 
> the Steen/Kingston segment was fucking great. probably the highlight of the show. hope they feud as well as Kingston/Davey since at least Davey won't be able to have his usual garbage match against Kingston. Kyle's heel turn at least made him _somewhat_ interesting. he's been cutting some of the most charismaticless awkward promos I've ever seen leading up to this show. then of course Steen managed to save the show from ending on a completely shit note with his promo at the end. Steen was really the star of the show. everything about him was fucking awesome down to his tuxedo shirt and Richards tennis racket.
> 
> it was probably the most enjoyable show since I started watching ROH again although that's not saying much. still felt like nothing more than filler which is why I didn't pay for it, plus the main event was shit. show was still plagued by constant no selling and that stretches across pretty much every match including the Steen one. if these guys just sold the moves properly they'd probably only have to do half as much and the matches would be much better. also someone within the company needs to realize that every fucking main event doesn't have to be 40(+) mins . Davey's style is bad enough when it goes on for 40 minutes or more for no reason it just makes it tiresome as well. every main event doesn't have to be some kind of "epic" or whatever they're going for. again all around not a bad show, but still suffering from glaring weaknesses.


Fuck yeah for everything said here.



> edit: also the production was fucking SHIT. worst I've ever seen from ROH. random video packages/replays going off. missed spots, missed entrances. video packages with no sound. at one point I could hear a guy talking about The Rock, not sure if it was someone in the truck or what. but it wasn't Nigel or Kelly, nor was it something from the crowd. just someone calmly talking.


And double Fuck Yeah for this. I haven't watched the full show yet, but so far the production has been fucking horrendous.


----------



## Tony Tornado

serenity4now said:


> I DID ! does anyone know reds new theme from the 10th anniversary


It's this I think http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=et5LOTWpxwY


----------



## jawbreaker

JoeRulz said:


> People need to realize that this was an absolutely acceptable show for only $10. Yes, we can do an autopsies left and right, but that's the bottom line. Personally, I would feel like a total asshole for bitching and moaning about the show, because it matches the price, IMO.


nah, it really wasn't. if I'd paid money for that show I would have felt ripped off. it wasn't a waste of the time I spent watching it like Final Battle and the back half of BITW, but if it had come down to paying for it or not watching it I wouldn't have watched it.


----------



## Beatles123

jawbreaker said:


> nah, it really wasn't. if I'd paid money for that show I would have felt ripped off. it wasn't a waste of the time I spent watching it like Final Battle and the back half of BITW, but if it had come down to paying for it or not watching it I wouldn't have watched it.


 Opinions, bro. Saying "Nah, it really wasn't" is simply what YOU took from it judging by YOUR criteria. I'm not even calling you wrong, but to act like anyone who liked it doesn't know what wrestling is sounds arrogant and pompous. I'm sorry if that's not what you were going for, but that's the vibe you give off. Just sayin'


----------



## seabs

ViolenceIsGolden said:


> All I'm saying is people should find a good stable reason to hate something but unfortunately the only criteria required is band wagon hating because it's not the WWE.


*Ugh. Just ugh.*


JoeRulz said:


> People need to realize that this was an absolutely acceptable show for only $10. Yes, we can do an autopsies left and right, but that's the bottom line. Personally, I would feel like a total asshole for bitching and moaning about the show, because it matches the price, IMO.


*So if the $2 DGUSA iPPV is worse than $5 Wrestling Live then it's ok because the price was low too?

On the what makes a match quality good and not. Imagine everyone always kicked out of the FU or the Stone Cold Stunner or the Pedigree. Who would give a shit about them moves as finishers and who would still pop on the rare occasion someone kicked out of them? 

Wrestling's a form of entertainment and not a sport. The aim is to evoke a positive reaction from the audience towards what is being presented. It's not a coincidence that the crowds have started dying for these types of matches either. They were dead for Final Battle, dead during spells of BITW and from what I've heard dead during this show and GBH last year. All in reference to Davey's main event matches. These aren't bad crowds either. They're always hot at the start of the show. Meltzer made a neat analogy on Observer Radio. "It's like eating an ice cream cone, except you have to eat 16 of them." In small doses it's great but in one big chunk it's no good and no fun. Wrestlers have finishers. The clue is in the title. It's one of their moves that finishes a match and alerts the audience that when they go to do that move, the finish is near. How many people whenever Davey hits his finisher (does he actually have one? what is it? serious question btw) truly feel that's the end of the match and pop when someone kicks out. If you do anything repeatedly then eventually people start to dislike it. If you do all their stuff in one big go like they do then people stop caring about stuff they'd usually enjoy because nobody wants to be overloaded with the same thing. 

Basic wrestling 101 is to have a good guy fight from behind to beat the goody guy. When was the last ROH to main event to have a simple formula that got the crowd into a match. None of Davey's title matches have. The bad guy controls the match at a slower pace so the crowd can build themselves up to the finish when they go crazy whilst the pace picks up and the babyface makes his comeback and then they all cheer at the end when the goody guy wins. I'm not saying it's the only formula that works but it's simple and far more enjoyable for the crowd. Plus it's far safer to work and you don't have to take 10 head bumps and 100 kicks to the head in every match for it to get over. 

Sure the puro style did a lot of big head drops but they did them sparingly and that was why they got over. You'd get one or two and only in the really big matches and they'd get over huge because they didn't tire the crowd out on them. It's a nice surprise to bust out once in a while. 

Imagine if it was Christmas every day. You'd stop caring it. You don't want a big Christmas dinner every day of the week with all the family Just once a year is nice so it feels special.*


----------



## Beatles123

I won't deny Davey's/Eddies issues with that, Seabs. Not everyone in ROH does it though, so we shouldn't see that much longer.


----------



## Manu_Styles

Somebody explain why the ME have overkill or whatever they don´t like it. I just rewatch it and still can find anything that wrong in the match, always was Davey Richards vs Adam Cole, Edwards vs O´Reilly or Cole vs O´Reilly only in the last minutes Richards and Edwards was in the ring wrestle each other. The match did a lot to push the young guys at the same level of Edwards & Richards don´t have overkill or kickout out of finishers. I just really don´t understand the negativity.


----------



## wildpegasus

Yeah, that's the thing. This match didn't have overkill. Now I've seen matches with overkill -- People always complained about this in ROH's entire run and it was all the same thing Seabs wrote out there earlier so this is nothing new -- but this match didn't have overkill. Yes, they did a lot out there but there have been a ton of other matches that did more to destory finishers than this one. This match didn't destroy finishers and I think people are taking what happened in say the last Richards vs Edwards match where they went through a lot of ton of stuff (Personally, I am a fan of that match) and applying it to this one where none of the four combatants went through nearly as much stuff in comparison. Saves were made at the right time to save stuff for that purpose and were done at suspensful times (particulary loved the American Wolves roll up on Richards that Edwards/Cole hit for multiple reasons) I absolutely understand where everybody is coming from in the fear of exhausting the audience, making every move count for all its worth etc etc but this isn't the match to complain for it. Even than, I tend to be a fan of "overkill" but only if it's done right and by people I believe are putting the effort in -- not doing it for the sake of doing it.
I'd also like to point out that any lack of heat for this match was exaggerated as well. Particulary for being the last match where the crowd has already burnt themselves out, I liked the amount of heat for this one.

I pointed out earlier that I particulary liked the psy in ths one. I thought things were done at the right time and as a result overall the match had a nice flow. It did not feel random. The match built and the young vs more experienced dynamic was done very well in particular. At the end of it, I got what the match was supposed to do and that was get into the "new Wolves rising". A really strong match. Not perfect but pretty strong and one I a super long time fan enjoyed. Now time to go watch some puroresu

Just for fun sake about a point there Seabs made -- There was a time when people where the WWF/WWE finishers were being kicked out of more after being protected pretty strongly for years earlier. Than they went back again to protecting them more. Typically now, I have noticed that there is not too much kicking out of big stuff at all anymore.


----------



## TelkEvolon

The Main Event felt like a PWG tag match, it was patchy, moves going on everywhere and people all over the place.

The match was a total mess, I can agree with anyone that it was almost the opposite of a well structured match.

It was a scrap, it was a donnybrook, it was a tag team MMA match.

It was also the biggest Proving Grounds match ROH has had, with everyone looking to prove something to everyone else. The dynamic of Eddie/Davey & Cole/O'Reilly was great, and the match was a pure strike war and submission battle that kept the action going for nearly 40 minutes with pretty much no missteps or errors.

It was a hell of a match.

I can understand people hating it or being negative about it from a philosophical perspective. But it was still a hell of a match.


----------



## Bubz

TelkEvolon said:


> The Main Event felt like a PWG tag match, it was patchy, moves going on everywhere and people all over the place.
> 
> The match was a total mess, *I can agree with anyone that it was almost the opposite of a well structured match.*
> 
> It was a scrap, it was a donnybrook, it was a tag team MMA match.
> 
> It was also the biggest Proving Grounds match ROH has had, with everyone looking to prove something to everyone else. The dynamic of Eddie/Davey & Cole/O'Reilly was great, and the match was a pure strike war and submission battle that kept the action going for nearly 40 minutes with pretty much no missteps or errors.
> 
> *It was a hell of a match.*
> 
> I can understand people hating it or being negative about it from a philosophical perspective. But it was still a hell of a match.


These two statements don't go together in the slightest. How was it a badly structured match yet a great one? If it was badly structured it was a bad match.


----------



## Kincaid

"It was a tag team MMA match"

Man, I love when they put guys through tables in MMA matches. Oh, and when they end in cross body blocks. Awesome.


----------



## TelkEvolon

Bubz said:


> These two statements don't go together in the slightest. How was it a badly structured match yet a great one? If it was badly structured it was a bad match.


That match wasn't build around having good structure or flow that was building thoughout.

So the lack of it doesn't really hurt the wild MMA brawl that it was. It was a war. I wasn't watching it for anything else than the madness it was.

I said hell of a match, it was a wild thing to see that I greatly enjoyed and perceived as awesome.

This why I also said I can understand why people might of hated the idea of it.


----------



## TelkEvolon

Kincaid said:


> "It was a tag team MMA match"
> 
> Man, I love when they put guys through tables in MMA matches. Oh, and when they end in cross body blocks. Awesome.




Are you serious?


----------



## ViolenceIsGolden

R.Scorpio said:


> Drama fest? ROH has been really dull for a while. Most guys just dont exude any form of personality which makes it tough to get behind. If you actually take a second to think back to the previous ROH "greats" you think of guys like Punk, Joe, Danielson, Aries, Nigel etc. They werent just guys who could wrestle well, they could talk and had a charisma and character which made you feel one way or another about them. On top of that the ROH mainevent style has become so overkill its not funny. I cant remember the last ROH show i was genuinely excited about and that's damning when compared to say PWG where I'm essentially excited about every show they put on.


Okay 

1. why are you excited about PWG but not ROH when it's virtually the same wrestlers, same matches, same thing? Explain.

2. You mention stars from the "past" like Danielson, Aries, Nigel, Punk, and Joe but they've all moved on like everything else. If you can't look at the future then start getting into WWE more where most of the wrestlers from ROH you like currently work. Whether people agree or not Davey Richards, Eddie Edwards, Roderick Strong, Jay Lethal, and a couple other wrestlers are the top guys of ROH and should get the same respect as any of the wrestlers that have moved on to WWE or TNA.

Like I said and I'll repeat again everybody gets too caught up in fantasy/imagination of what they think the shows should be like instead of viewing it more realistically for what it is. Compared to some of the bullshit in WWE and TNA right now I can't see why people trying to get away have to still complain about ROH. If you don't like it then go watch your PWG (same shit), simple as that.


----------



## Bubz

ViolenceIsGolden said:


> Okay
> 
> 1. why are you excited about PWG but not ROH when it's virtually the same wrestlers, same matches, same thing? Explain.
> 
> 2. You mention stars from the "past" like Danielson, Aries, Nigel, Punk, and Joe but they've all moved on like everything else. If you can't look at the future then start getting into WWE more where most of the wrestlers from ROH you like currently work. Whether people agree or not Davey Richards, Eddie Edwards, Roderick Strong, Jay Lethal, and a couple other wrestlers are the top guys of ROH *and should get the same respect as any of the wrestlers that have moved on to WWE or TNA.*
> 
> Like I said and I'll repeat again everybody gets too caught up in fantasy/imagination of what they think the shows should be like instead of viewing it more realistically for what it is. Compared to some of the bullshit in WWE and TNA right now I can't see why people trying to get away have to still complain about ROH. If you don't like it then go watch your PWG (same shit), simple as that.


1. It's not the same at all. Completely different products.

2. They shouldn't because they aren't half as good.


----------



## Brigante

ViolenceIsGolden said:


> Okay
> 
> 1. why are you excited about PWG but not ROH when it's virtually the same wrestlers, same matches, same thing? Explain.


No one on this board will ever be able to reasonably explain this.

They'll just spew some made up bullshit about PWG having better match structure.


----------



## THANOS

Bubz said:


> 1. It's not the same at all. Completely different products.
> 
> 2. They shouldn't because they aren't half as good.


The only people I would put in the ROH "greats" category that are in the current ROH is Kevin Steen, El Generico, and the Briscoes (but they're not "new").


----------



## jawbreaker

Brigante said:


> No one on this board will ever be able to reasonably explain this.
> 
> They'll just spew some made up bullshit about PWG having better match structure.


how, exactly, is PWG having better match structure "made up bullshit"?

also, wrestlers in PWG work the crowd. they think about what they're doing in the ring and make it entertaining to the fans in attendance. they don't sacrifice match quality for some kind of greater story, they build stories in the matches.

I keep pimping this match and I still feel like nobody gets it: Nightmare Violence Connection vs. RockNES Monsters. it was the absolute best underdog match I saw in 2011. and the best moments in the match weren't even moves. it was Tozawa posing while Yuma tried furiously to make a tag. it was Steen climbing the turnbuckles and celebrating after he dropped Goodtime on his head on the floor. it was the urgency with which the Monsters made all their covers. it was Yuma going totally limp after taking a package piledriver on the apron. it was Steen and Tozawa being douchebags and getting cheered for it, and Yuma and Goodtime trying so desperately to prove to Steen and to the fans that they deserved to be taken seriously. that's what PWG is, that's what good wrestling is. it's the spaces in between the moves, when you get time to reflect, and think about what's going on, that makes wrestling good. wrestling is showmanship, not athletics. its base of comparison is theatre, not MMA, and it needs to be judged as such.


----------



## dukenukem3do

jawbreaker said:


> how, exactly, is PWG having better match structure "made up bullshit"?
> 
> also, wrestlers in PWG work the crowd. they think about what they're doing in the ring and make it entertaining to the fans in attendance. they don't sacrifice match quality for some kind of greater story, they build stories in the matches.
> 
> I keep pimping this match and I still feel like nobody gets it: Nightmare Violence Connection vs. RockNES Monsters. it was the absolute best underdog match I saw in 2011. and the best moments in the match weren't even moves. it was Tozawa posing while Yuma tried furiously to make a tag. it was Steen climbing the turnbuckles and celebrating after he dropped Goodtime on his head on the floor. it was the urgency with which the Monsters made all their covers. it was Yuma going totally limp after taking a package piledriver on the apron. it was Steen and Tozawa being douchebags and getting cheered for it, and Yuma and Goodtime trying so desperately to prove to Steen and to the fans that they deserved to be taken seriously. that's what PWG is, that's what good wrestling is. it's the spaces in between the moves, when you get time to reflect, and think about what's going on, that makes wrestling good. wrestling is showmanship, not athletics. its base of comparison is theatre, not MMA, and it needs to be judged as such.


Even Sami Callihan vs Adam Cole have more storytelling than the main even not that it was bad or anything


----------



## ViolenceIsGolden

Brigante said:


> No one on this board will ever be able to reasonably explain this.
> 
> They'll just spew some made up bullshit about PWG having better match structure.


You the man.

Until somebody absolutely convinces me that PWG is better or totally different then I just can't buy into their thought process. Maybe I'm just different than all of those types but that's probably why I don't give two shits about PWG, not saying it's a bad product I just don't prefer it as much as the people do that it "clicks" with because it doesn't click with me one bit. I tried watching a few PWG shows from recently in 2011 and and aside from a few really green guys I've never seen wrestle before it was virtually the same wrestlers as ROH just playing different roles or playing on the opposite side of the fence. Just stupid to say PWG is the best but ROH is the worst when their really not that much different if anything virtually the same. Just one show takes place in small local arena in Louisville or Baltimore and the other takes place in what looks like a closed off section of a high school gym or something.

At least ROH has a tv deal and their trying to do stuff. If anything PWG is "indyrific" another hypocritical and confusing term these ROH haters throw around all the time to describe ROH while they praise PWG.


----------



## Kincaid

PWG plays different. That's seriously what it is. The atmosphere is different. PWG plays to small, tight venues with virtually the same fans every month and absolutely MOLTEN heat as a result. It's got a real party feel to it. 

Look at Davey Richards vs Chris Hero from...Seven I think? It's structured _sanely_. Hero's big spots are hitting Davey really really hard. Davey's big moves are more technical things like the ankle lock and cloverleaf. When he hits Hero hard with a knockout kick? It's because Hero's on his knees after having his legs worked on so badly. In that match, roles were clearly defined. Hero as a big, knockout bruiser and Davey as a similar type of guy who was grossly undersized so he had to go to the submission holds.

It's harder to point to examples of that in ROH. I can SAY Future Shock were "the up and coming rookies" but it's hard for me to point out a thing as an example of that when there's so much chain wrestling and strike exchanging going on.

I know who guys ARE in PWG. The fans know who they are, and that atmosphere sucks you in.


----------



## McQueen

PWG also doesn't take itself so seriously. The atmosphere they put out is just a simple, come out, have some fun & watch some wrasslin. Whereas ROH is trying to convince everyone they're the best wrestling (and not Sports Entertainment) on the planet while wanting to be the next big company. totally different philosophies even if both companies use the same talent.


----------



## KingCrash

ViolenceIsGolden said:


> 2. You mention stars from the "past" like Danielson, Aries, Nigel, Punk, and Joe but they've all moved on like everything else. If you can't look at the future then start getting into WWE more where most of the wrestlers from ROH you like currently work. Whether people agree or not Davey Richards, Eddie Edwards, Roderick Strong, Jay Lethal, and a couple other wrestlers are the top guys of ROH and should get the same respect as any of the wrestlers that have moved on to WWE or TNA.


But why should you respect or like someone's work just because they're pushed as the top guy of a company? Devon Moore and Scotty Vortekz are the top guys in CZW right now and they flat out suck ass. Should they be remember in the same line as Chris Hero and Eddie Kingston during CZW's heyday? Of course not. And it's not that people want the stars back but it's that in addition to doing flashy or hard-hitting moves the guys mention could tell a story in the matches and had defining characters while some of the guys ROH are pushing now can't or won't in ROH.



> Like I said and I'll repeat again everybody gets too caught up in fantasy/imagination of what they think the shows should be like instead of viewing it more realistically for what it is. Compared to some of the bullshit in WWE and TNA right now I can't see why people trying to get away have to still complain about ROH. If you don't like it then go watch your PWG (same shit), simple as that.


Well what in the hell is the difference between people complaining about ROH in this thread and you complaining about Raw in that thread because it's pretty crystal clear you hate WWE right now. If we like a match fine, if we don't then that's fine too. Thought the whole point of a board is to discuss why you do or don't like something. Why should we give ROH or PWG or any other wrestling fed a pass because WWE does something stupid. Wow, WWE has a guy with a sock puppet win a title. Guess what? Sunday's main event was still average at best.


----------



## lewieG

PWG doesn't try to be a pseudo-MMA promotion. The wrestlers there have characters, so you have a reason for watching the match, other than the obvious reason that it will be a good match. You get drawn in by the characters, and then enjoy the match, and the match actually means something. ROH lacks this IMO, they have good wrestlers, but they have no characters other than Steen, Bennett (who hasn't had any memorable matches yet) and to a lesser extent some other heels. Almost all the faces are 'rargh, fighting spirit, kicks, head drops, fancy moves, I WANT TO WIN SOOOOO MUCH' etc faces. And the same guys have been main eventing for the last couple of years. Cole beating Davey is a step in the right direction.

Also, is this show being officially called 10th Anniversary Show or Young Wolves Rising?


----------



## scrilla

Santino is a better worker than Davey.


----------



## TelkEvolon

scrilla said:


> Santino is a better worker than Davey.


----------



## seabs

ViolenceIsGolden said:


> 2. You mention stars from the "past" like Danielson, Aries, Nigel, Punk, and Joe but they've all moved on like everything else. If you can't look at the future then start getting into WWE more where most of the wrestlers from ROH you like currently work. Whether people agree or not Davey Richards, Eddie Edwards, Roderick Strong, Jay Lethal, and a couple other wrestlers are the top guys of ROH and should get the same respect as any of the wrestlers that have moved on to WWE or TNA.


*What an awful argument. They should get respect based on what? Because they're pushed as the top guys in a minor promotion with a bare thin roster? Great performances over an extended period of time earn respect, not how the booker pushes you.*



> Like I said and I'll repeat again everybody gets too caught up in fantasy/imagination of what they think the shows should be like instead of viewing it more realistically for what it is. Compared to some of the bullshit in WWE and TNA right now I can't see why people trying to get away have to still complain about ROH. If you don't like it then go watch your PWG (same shit), simple as that.


*WWE's booking right now is a whole lot better than ROH's currently.

If I don't like the product then I should just accept it and move on? I can't want it to be better? These ROH fans who have given countless amounts of their own money to support the product and followed them for years when they were barely known have to just move on now if they don't like the current product? No, they have more right than anyone to want a better product.

The idea that "TNA is shit so how can you complain about ROH" is stupid too. There's no link between them. They're 2 separate promotions. Just because TNA is shit doesn't mean we have to lower our standards for ROH.*


Brigante said:


> No one on this board will ever be able to reasonably explain this.
> 
> They'll just spew some made up bullshit about PWG having better match structure.





jawbreaker said:


> how, exactly, is PWG having better match structure "made up bullshit"?
> 
> also, wrestlers in PWG work the crowd. they think about what they're doing in the ring and make it entertaining to the fans in attendance. they don't sacrifice match quality for some kind of greater story, they build stories in the matches.
> 
> I keep pimping this match and I still feel like nobody gets it: Nightmare Violence Connection vs. RockNES Monsters. it was the absolute best underdog match I saw in 2011. and the best moments in the match weren't even moves. it was Tozawa posing while Yuma tried furiously to make a tag. it was Steen climbing the turnbuckles and celebrating after he dropped Goodtime on his head on the floor. it was the urgency with which the Monsters made all their covers. it was Yuma going totally limp after taking a package piledriver on the apron. it was Steen and Tozawa being douchebags and getting cheered for it, and Yuma and Goodtime trying so desperately to prove to Steen and to the fans that they deserved to be taken seriously. that's what PWG is, that's what good wrestling is. it's the spaces in between the moves, when you get time to reflect, and think about what's going on, that makes wrestling good. wrestling is showmanship, not athletics. its base of comparison is theatre, not MMA, and it needs to be judged as such.


*and you have your answer. Chances are you'll read it (or not) and just dismiss it though because you've already made your mind up on PWG matches being badly worked matches.*


ViolenceIsGolden said:


> You the man.
> 
> Until somebody absolutely convinces me that PWG is better or totally different then I just can't buy into their thought process.


*"Cognitive Dissonance" - If an individual cannot reconcile certain information because it is inconsistent with their personal beliefs, they may distort the information to fit in with what they believe.

You've clearly already made your mind up on PWG and ROH and you're not gonna change your mind no matter how good of an argument someone makes that goes against your view point.*


> Maybe I'm just different than all of those types but that's probably why I don't give two shits about PWG, not saying it's a bad product I just don't prefer it as much as the people do that it "clicks" with because it doesn't click with me one bit. I tried watching a few PWG shows from recently in 2011 and and aside from a few really green guys I've never seen wrestle before it was virtually the same wrestlers as ROH just playing different roles or playing on the opposite side of the fence. Just stupid to say PWG is the best but ROH is the worst when their really not that much different if anything virtually the same.


*Yeah they use a lot of the same wrestlers but nearly all of them work better matches in PWG than they do in ROH. That is not a coincidence. The Young Bucks act is a million times better in PWG. Claudio's title run last year smoked the majority of his singles matches he ever had in ROH. Hero's best singles matches from 07 onwards took place in PWG and not ROH. Generico has a good-great match on every PWG show. Can you imagine the thought of Generico being involved in a PWG match as bad as that Generico/Cabana vs WGTT match from last year in ROH? Steen is better in PWG and a far better worker there who isn't as over reliant on spots and not selling as he was at Final Battle. Eddie Edwards had his best performances ever last year in NOAH and PWG. Davey had some great performances in New Japan and on really small Indy shows last year. All of these aren't a coincidence that these ROH wrestlers have better matches outside of ROH in a better wrestling climate. 

I'm not gonna deny that PWG don't do spotty matches because they do. The difference is they do them well and in the right place on the card with the right guys. They don't do them in title matches on the main event, they do them on the undercard or the midcard which is the right place for spotty matches. Plus they never go 40 minutes. Usually 10-15 minutes and they peak at the end. There is a few exceptions but generally speaking them do spotty matches correctly whereas ROH do them all the time, in a serious environment to a crowd who just don't care about them.

PWG matches last year with a clear story and well worked structure:

Claudio Castagnoli vs El Generico - PWG World Championship - Kurt RusselReunion II
Kings Of Wrestling vs Kevin Steen & Akira Tozawa - DDT4 2011
Young Bucks vs Kevin Steen & Akira Tozawa - DDT4 2011
Willie Mack vs Roderick Strong - Card Subject To Change III
Claudio Castagnoli vs Joey Ryan - PWG World Championship - Card Subject To Change III
Kevin Steen vs Willie Mack - All Star Weekend 8 Night 1
Kevin Steen & Akira Tozawa vs RockNES Monsters - All Star Weekend 8 Night 2
El Generico vs Eddie Edwards - All Star Weekend 8 Night 2
Young Bucks vs Austin Aries & Roderick Strong - PWG World Tag Team Championships - All Star Weekend 8 Night 2
Akira Tozawa vs Chris Hero - All Star Weekend 8 Night 2
Claudio Castagnoli vs Chris Hero - PWG World Championship - Eight
Chris Hero vs Willie Mack - BOLA 2011
Kevin Steen vs Finlay - BOLA 2011
Young Bucks vs Kings Of Wrestling - PWG World Tag Team Championships - BOLA 2011
El Generico vs Kevin Steen - BOLA 2011
Kevin Steen vs El Generico - Ladder Match - PWG World Championship - Steen Wolf

and that's being picky about a few. 

When was the last ROH Title match to be worked as well as Claudio/Generico? I don't wanna say there hasn't been one since Nigel's reign but maybe. Very few if there has been. Very few matches period actually, not just title matches. Barely any since Danielson left.

Go watch every Tozawa match in PWG and watch his character development from that year in PWG and how well they worked underdog matches with him in and it all rounded up with his match vs Hero.*


> Just one show takes place in small local arena in Louisville or Baltimore and the other takes place in what looks like a closed off section of a high school gym or something.


*You say this like it's a negative. The Reseda crowd and venue is widely regarded as the best venue/set of fans in modern wrestling. Again, you seem to think that ROH being bigger equals better and it really doesn't. With that thinking you should prefer WWE to ROH as well because they work on a bigger scale yet you don't.*


> At least ROH has a tv deal and their trying to do stuff. If anything PWG is "indyrific" another hypocritical and confusing term these ROH haters throw around all the time to describe ROH while they praise PWG.


*Having a TV deal equals a better promotion? No.

The "indyriffic" term refers to the modern Indy culture of wrestling that ROH pushes. It refers to when wrestlers who don't know how to work have long matches which go way past their peak, have no solid story to play off and just do loads of moves. That's also a pretty accurate description of most of Davey's matches in ROH last year too.*


scrilla said:


> Santino is a better worker than Davey.


_*This is actually true. I'm sick and tired of explaining the difference between wrestler and worker though so fuck doing that again. Santino works a crowd and gets huge pops for a hand puppet. That makes him a better worker than Davey in ROH right now. Not saying he's a better wrestler but he's a much better worker.*_


----------



## EmbassyForever

So Hulk Hogan is the best worker in history?


----------



## seabs

*No but he was a better worker than Davey Richards has ever been.

Way to get worker = getting a crowd reaction and nothing else from that btw. *


----------



## EmbassyForever

IDK, in my opinion, Santino is so popular because he's the ultimate underdog, unlike Davey. Their gimmicks are sooooooooo different. So I don't know if you can compare them.


----------



## rizzotherat

EmbassyForever said:


> IDK, in my opinion, Santino is so popular because he's the ultimate underdog, unlike Davey. Their gimmicks are sooooooooo different. So I don't know if you can compare them.


A good worker is someone who gets the most reaction out of the least. Davey is the complete opposite he stiffly hits every move under the sun to largely silence. Santino can get the crowd eating out of his hand with his charisma and comedy.


----------



## EmbassyForever

rizzotherat said:


> Santino can get the crowd eating out of his hand with his charisma and comedy.


(Y)


----------



## Rah

scrilla said:


> Santino is a better worker than Davey.


Can we substitute Santino for Eric Young? That man never gets enough love. :sad:



TelkEvolon said:


> I don't see where you're coming from with the no emotion, the dude can hardly take the smile off of his face, his seems so excited by the possibiblies.
> 
> That is legitimacy, he doesn't need to stumble around, pretending to be beat and acting up a script to how you feel a character might play it out in a situation like that.
> 
> He is a dude over the moon with his win, going home after getting some time to get himself together. It's not like it was directly after the match or anything.
> 
> Trivial complaints about a 50 second promo. I understand it is a legit gripe for you and that you're not some mindless hater. But my gripe is people wanting something they can believe or that is believable by asking for something that is fictitious or fake. Wanting reality from fantasty.


Like I said, I haven't watched the match so I cannot comment on his lack of exhaustion or pain, so let's mark that off as irrelevant.

The problem wasn't that I ignored his smile, but we live in a world with depth and are not social creatures living on surface-aesthetic interaction. There should be emotional depth beyond the smile. Of course this promo was not nearly as bad as McGuillishitty's but he is an example of having a superficial appearance without any emotional depth to his promo.

Smiling =! actually believing or living through the promo.

If this was merely aimed at the promo, I'd agree with you, they are trivial. But it stems more into RoH possibly being a future platform for him to deliver more promos void of emotion or care. Now, like I stated before, this gripe isn't solely with him - as I used to feel the same with a lot of the talent when I used to watch RoH - but it's just something I have in general. So, yeah, maybe I'm weird and thus RoH isn't for me, but that's okay because I'm not watching them. I thought I'd just say why I'm continuing to be happy in my decision to stop watching. The wrestling became the sole reason, in the end, because of their lacking promo skills and when I realised I could get the same (or greater) quality from Japan, 2CW or PWG I left RoH. 

The opposite is also true, though. If I was blown away by that promo I would have started watching RoH, again, because I'd be interested in his work and could put aside my gripes with the wrestling aspect. As an example, The Briscoes sold me with their promos against The Young Bucks and, despite the reviews, will give that match a try when I can get my hands on it. After all, a great product on the whole would be the most attainable, but my hobby doesn't ascribe to some Gestalt theory where the whole is greater than the sum of its parts; if the wrestling OR the promos captivate me, I will keep watching for that, and make lee-way for the negatives.

*Main topic* (seeing this is probably boring you): When he steps through the curtain, Michael Hickenbottom becomes Shawn Michaels - the character is what people paid to see. It would be foolish of him to be himself and not his character. The person, imo, has to live vicariously through their character once it's donned and has to give it believability or depth.

The entire industry is fake, but when the bell sounds (and even before it in promo/backstage sequences) we suspend our disbelief that they're actually not feeling anything. I mean, if we didn't, we'd simply look at most submissions and/or moves with such disdain at how pathetically illogical or unbelievable they are in a real fight (though there is only so far one can suspend it, noting the disdain for the "synchronised swimming" of Davie/Eddie). So if we're to accept (and even need) a wrestler to cry in agony during a particular submission, and sell it, then why stop expecting an illusion of reality in aspects outside of the ring. 

Heat, emotion and cause add a lot to a feud and what actually gets that over? A wrestler making the audience believe that they want to go out there and do grievous bodily harm to their opponent. Yes, the two can wrestle, but the entire Steen/Generico feud _as a whole_ was masterfully done. Within the fourth wall you could believe the two really did hate each other (and it showed in their ladder match) because of the passion they portrayed.

Obviously it's hard to fake believable emotion, and the best gimmicks/feuds usually have some truth to them, so I'm not expecting A-List chemistry (as I stated before) but there is a threshold for me where I'll cut off and focus solely on the product's wrestling insofar as I enjoy it and if I don't, then I won't watch the promotion again. I won't hate on it, or wish it to fail (as I've seen many do to TNA), because, in my heart, I want every promotion to make me feel like a fool for doubting it. I love wrestling, and the more enjoyment I can get from it the better. I'm not getting much from RoH, now, so I'll just wait until it does. That's why I simply read through the RoH discussions, see opinions and if something catches my eye I'll give it a try. It's like how this all started - I thought I'd see my feelings to the video, and if I was won over I'd slowly start to follow RoH, again, and see how it interests me.

I wasn't won over, but I'll keep hoping something will.



TelkEvolon said:


> Right up there with people calling no-selling unrealistic.


This part interests me most, and I'd actually like to know your belief on it. If you've said it before, just link me to it if that's easier for you.

In how it's said I'd disagree, but I can understand that you could mean it, not simply as a blanket term, but that no-selling is rather context-based and not a must in all situations (within reason). I _might_ be entitled to agree there.



Seabs said:


> *long, awesome post*


----------



## Bubz

Seabs said:


> *What an awful argument. They should get respect based on what? Because they're pushed as the top guys in a minor promotion with a bare thin roster? Great performances over an extended period of time earn respect, not how the booker pushes you.*
> 
> 
> *WWE's booking right now is a whole lot better than ROH's currently.
> 
> If I don't like the product then I should just accept it and move on? I can't want it to be better? These ROH fans who have given countless amounts of their own money to support the product and followed them for years when they were barely known have to just move on now if they don't like the current product? No, they have more right than anyone to want a better product.
> 
> The idea that "TNA is shit so how can you complain about ROH" is stupid too. There's no link between them. They're 2 separate promotions. Just because TNA is shit doesn't mean we have to lower our standards for ROH.*
> 
> 
> 
> *and you have your answer. Chances are you'll read it (or not) and just dismiss it though because you've already made your mind up on PWG matches being badly worked matches.*
> 
> *"Cognitive Dissonance" - If an individual cannot reconcile certain information because it is inconsistent with their personal beliefs, they may distort the information to fit in with what they believe.
> 
> You've clearly already made your mind up on PWG and ROH and you're not gonna change your mind no matter how good of an argument someone makes that goes against your view point.*
> 
> *Yeah they use a lot of the same wrestlers but nearly all of them work better matches in PWG than they do in ROH. That is not a coincidence. The Young Bucks act is a million times better in PWG. Claudio's title run last year smoked the majority of his singles matches he ever had in ROH. Hero's best singles matches from 07 onwards took place in PWG and not ROH. Generico has a good-great match on every PWG show. Can you imagine the thought of Generico being involved in a PWG match as bad as that Generico/Cabana vs WGTT match from last year in ROH? Steen is better in PWG and a far better worker there who isn't as over reliant on spots and not selling as he was at Final Battle. Eddie Edwards had his best performances ever last year in NOAH and PWG. Davey had some great performances in New Japan and on really small Indy shows last year. All of these aren't a coincidence that these ROH wrestlers have better matches outside of ROH in a better wrestling climate.
> 
> I'm not gonna deny that PWG don't do spotty matches because they do. The difference is they do them well and in the right place on the card with the right guys. They don't do them in title matches on the main event, they do them on the undercard or the midcard which is the right place for spotty matches. Plus they never go 40 minutes. Usually 10-15 minutes and they peak at the end. There is a few exceptions but generally speaking them do spotty matches correctly whereas ROH do them all the time, in a serious environment to a crowd who just don't care about them.
> 
> PWG matches last year with a clear story and well worked structure:
> 
> Claudio Castagnoli vs El Generico - PWG World Championship - Kurt RusselReunion II
> Kings Of Wrestling vs Kevin Steen & Akira Tozawa - DDT4 2011
> Young Bucks vs Kevin Steen & Akira Tozawa - DDT4 2011
> Willie Mack vs Roderick Strong - Card Subject To Change III
> Claudio Castagnoli vs Joey Ryan - PWG World Championship - Card Subject To Change III
> Kevin Steen vs Willie Mack - All Star Weekend 8 Night 1
> Kevin Steen & Akira Tozawa vs RockNES Monsters - All Star Weekend 8 Night 2
> El Generico vs Eddie Edwards - All Star Weekend 8 Night 2
> Young Bucks vs Austin Aries & Roderick Strong - PWG World Tag Team Championships - All Star Weekend 8 Night 2
> Akira Tozawa vs Chris Hero - All Star Weekend 8 Night 2
> Claudio Castagnoli vs Chris Hero - PWG World Championship - Eight
> Chris Hero vs Willie Mack - BOLA 2011
> Kevin Steen vs Finlay - BOLA 2011
> Young Bucks vs Kings Of Wrestling - PWG World Tag Team Championships - BOLA 2011
> El Generico vs Kevin Steen - BOLA 2011
> Kevin Steen vs El Generico - Ladder Match - PWG World Championship - Steen Wolf
> 
> and that's being picky about a few.
> 
> When was the last ROH Title match to be worked as well as Claudio/Generico? I don't wanna say there hasn't been one since Nigel's reign but maybe. Very few if there has been. Very few matches period actually, not just title matches. Barely any since Danielson left.
> 
> Go watch every Tozawa match in PWG and watch his character development from that year in PWG and how well they worked underdog matches with him in and it all rounded up with his match vs Hero.*
> 
> *You say this like it's a negative. The Reseda crowd and venue is widely regarded as the best venue/set of fans in modern wrestling. Again, you seem to think that ROH being bigger equals better and it really doesn't. With that thinking you should prefer WWE to ROH as well because they work on a bigger scale yet you don't.*
> 
> *Having a TV deal equals a better promotion? No.
> 
> The "indyriffic" term refers to the modern Indy culture of wrestling that ROH pushes. It refers to when wrestlers who don't know how to work have long matches which go way past their peak, have no solid story to play off and just do loads of moves. That's also a pretty accurate description of most of Davey's matches in ROH last year too.*
> 
> _*This is actually true. I'm sick and tired of explaining the difference between wrestler and worker though so fuck doing that again. Santino works a crowd and gets huge pops for a hand puppet. That makes him a better worker than Davey in ROH right now. Not saying he's a better wrestler but he's a much better worker.*_












Awesome post.

But any money he just dismisses it or ignores it completely .


----------



## Chismo

People comparing ROH (in this day and age, especially) and PWG is probably the most retarded thing I've seen recently, it's even more retarded than WWE sections, tbh. I don't care whose side you pick, it's just fucking insanely idiotic and retarded, no matter what your fucking name is. 

We're talking about two completely different stories here, in booking, storylines, politics behind booking, atmosphere, etc. Comparing ROH (owned by corporation) to PWG (holding 10 shows per year) is completely unfair, it's clear as day. Of course PWG is doing better in booking sense, they have 10 supercards per year to take place, it's hard to fuck that up. Combine that with the lightened SoCal people in Reseda and an overall niche feel, who wouldn't like that? ROH simply cannot play like that, it's impossible right now. It's like when people compare Puro and American promotions, when they compare WWE and Indys. Insanely idiotic things you can hear.



Seabs said:


> *So if the $2 DGUSA iPPV is worse than $5 Wrestling Live then it's ok because the price was low too?*


Oh, please... 10 bucks for a live PPV, with the top Indy names? Yes, please, gimme that anyday and I'll take it. Sorry, but I'm able to separate the pure hedonistic joy and entertainment from my (s)markish match-autopsies. Even with the bad production, even with the meh Briscoes/Bucks and the main event matches, there was way more good stuff than bad stuff, looking from the booking perspective, storylines, wrestling quality, etc. Sure, the show never reached the blow away level, but I got what I wanted.

Hell, 10 bucks for a live PPV? I'd even buy WWE for that money. 



jawbreaker said:


> nah, it really wasn't. if *I'd* paid money for that show *I* would have felt ripped off. it wasn't a waste of the time *I* spent watching it like Final Battle and the back half of BITW, but if it had come down to paying for it or not watching it *I* wouldn't have watched it.


Well, there you go. 'Nuff said.


----------



## Rickey

Jawbreaker said:


> wrestling is showmanship, not athletics. its base of comparison is theatre, not MMA, and it needs to be judged as such.


That's a great point/quote. Wrestlers can be actors more so than athletes in the ring and respect needs to be given to both aspects. Funny that Santino was brought up that guy can REALLY get a crowd involved.


----------



## Kincaid

I like how ROH fans have degenerated to "Well, at least ROH is on TV!" and "You can't possibly compare it to other companies!"

Ya know, the two talking points we all hated in 2006.


----------



## SHIRLEY

There's nothing artistic or intellectual about the PWG product, and it's redundant to pretend that it's creatively superior to _any_ of it's competitors.

Ultimately, the whole concept behind that promotion is to take ROH matches/feuds to a West Coast audience, that can't see them in person otherwise, and to give friends of the promoters somewhere to goof around in a ring. PWG very rarely take the time to hype or promote matches and almost never develop PWG-specific characters for their big name indy bring-ins. Booking and psychology are two things that they just don't give a fuck about.

Let's be honest here, this whole "creatively PWG > All" thing is coming from a tiny group of hardcore, never-miss-a-show ROH fans that have managed to troll themselves into trollhood. Ask Excalibur if he thinks that PWG has artistically-relevant, intricately-structured matches and he'll just laugh.


----------



## EmbassyForever

KK, I watched this IPPV again..

ANX VS Wrestling's Greatest Tag Team ***1/4

Mike Bennett VS Homicide **1/2

Roderick Strong & Michael Elgin VS TJ Perkins & Amazing Red ***3/4

Jay Lethal VS Tommaso Ciampa 
TV Title Match **3/4

Young Bucks VS Briscoes 
ROH Tag Team Title Match ***1/4

Kevin Steen VS Jimmy Jacobs 
NO-DQ Match ***1/2

Davey Richards & Kyle O'Reilly VS Eddie Edwards & Adam Cole ****1/4

Overall Rating: 8.25. Still very good.


----------



## Bubz

Shirley Crabtree III said:


> There's nothing artistic or intellectual about the PWG product, and it's redundant to pretend that it's creatively superior to _any_ of it's competitors.
> 
> Ultimately, the whole concept behind that promotion is to take ROH matches/feuds to a West Coast audience, that can't see them in person otherwise, and to give friends of the promoters somewhere to goof around in a ring. PWG very rarely take the time to hype or promote matches and almost never develop PWG-specific characters for their big name indy bring-ins. Booking and psychology are two things that they just don't give a fuck about.
> 
> Let's be honest here, this whole "creatively PWG > All" thing is coming from a tiny group of hardcore, never-miss-a-show ROH fans that have managed to troll themselves into trollhood. Ask Excalibur if he thinks that PWG has artistically-relevant, intricately-structured matches and he'll just laugh.


When was the last time you saw a match in ROH as soundly structured as Claudio/Generico from Kurt Russell Reunion II? Or with a story as good as Steen/Generico from BOLA? Or as good a underdog story as the Hero/Tozawa matches? Or a tag match that managed to incorporate awesome spots in with a good story and psychology like NVC vs Generico/Ricochet match? And when did you ever see Eddie Edwards in a match as well laid out as his match in PWG with Generico?


----------



## Kid Kamikaze10

Shirley Crabtree III said:


> There's nothing artistic or intellectual about the PWG product, and it's redundant to pretend that it's creatively superior to _any_ of it's competitors.


Ok, but do you have any proof of that? Examples? Seabs showed a few, can you refute them?



> Ultimately, the whole concept behind that promotion is to take ROH matches/feuds to a West Coast audience, that can't see them in person otherwise, and to give friends of the promoters somewhere to goof around in a ring. PWG very rarely take the time to hype or promote matches and almost never develop PWG-specific characters for their big name indy bring-ins. Booking and psychology are two things that they just don't give a fuck about.


Again, this is a lot of generalizing. And some of these generalizations have been argued against.



> Let's be honest here, this whole "creatively PWG > All" thing is coming from a tiny group of hardcore, never-miss-a-show ROH fans that have managed to troll themselves into trollhood. Ask Excalibur if he thinks that PWG has artistically-relevant, intricately-structured matches and he'll just laugh.


Most artists don't think much of their product anyway (not nearly as much as their fans), but that's besides the point.

The bigger issue here is that this part was an ad hominem attack that just isn't relevant right now. It definitely doesn't make you look any better than the people who did put up well constructed arguments, that for sure.


tl;dr version: Do you have a point, or are you just going to be obtusely defensive about this ROH/PWG debate?


----------



## EffectRaven

Bubz said:


> When was the last time you saw a match in ROH as soundly structured as Claudio/Generico from Kurt Russell Reunion II? Or with a story as good as Steen/Generico from BOLA? Or as good a underdog story as the Hero/Tozawa matches? Or a tag match that managed to incorporate awesome spots in with a good story and psychology like NVC vs Generico/Ricochet match? And when did you ever see Eddie Edwards in a match as well laid out as his match in PWG with Generico?


Claudio/Generico = Edwards/Hero @ Revo Canada 

Steen/Generico = Steen/Generico @ FB10 

Hero/Tozawa = Edwards/Strong @ MMIV

NVC vs. Generico/Ricochet = ANX/Briscoes @ HTCS 1

And pretty much any of Edwards' matches with Christopher Daniels and anything he did during his world title run except maybe his match with Davey


----------



## TheAce

People need to stop nitpicking and start talking about how awesome Steen/Kingston segment was!!!

I'm really excited about this building Chikara/ROH story...


----------



## jawbreaker

Chris Hero vs. Akira Tozawa was an ROH feud that was brought to the West Coast audience.
Kevin Steen vs. the RockNES Monsters was an ROH feud that was brought to the West Coast audience.
Claudio Castagnoli vs. Chris Hero was an ROH feud that was brought to the West Coast audience.

regardless of whether the company itself cares about having the best matches possible (my guess is they do), the fact is that they happen. even if the wrestlers are just goofing off, most of them have really good matches while doing it. 

comparing PWG to ROH is like comparing an episodic sitcom with minimal long-term plotting (It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia, Archer, etc.) to one where where the plot is the focal point (The Office, Parks and Rec, etc.). Comparing them in terms of plot is a useless endeavour, of course, but when you consider what sitcoms are actually for (comedy, characters, etc.), they're totally comparable. Regardless of what a show tries to be, the end result is measurable and it can be compared to other shows without stretching the bounds of reasonable comparison at all.


----------



## Bubz

EffectRaven said:


> Claudio/Generico = Edwards/Hero @ Revo Canada
> 
> Steen/Generico = Steen/Generico @ FB10
> 
> Hero/Tozawa = Edwards/Strong @ MMIV
> 
> NVC vs. Generico/Ricochet = ANX/Briscoes @ HTCS 1
> 
> And pretty much any of Edwards' matches with Christopher Daniels and anything he did during his world title run except maybe his match with Davey


The only one I will give you out of those is the Steen/Generico match.

If you think Eddie/Roddy was even remotely close to the underdog story of Hero/Tozawa you're trippin. The fact that Eddie is supposed to be the underdog, but never fucking wrestled like one is stupid and pointless. Sure he gets beaten up a bit, but he dishes out the exact same back in return to Roddy and even beats him in the chop wars. If Eddie could get worked over for an extended period of time, and you know, actually play the underdog he apparantly is, then his matches would be so much better than they are. Instead he plays the equal and can't get controlled for more than a minute.

The same goes for the Hero match wich was really good, but only because Hero was a fucking boss in that match going after the arm but Eddie still had to get a needless series of signature moves in there. Nowhere near as good as Claudio/Generico. Same goes for his Daniels matches too for the most part although I did enjoy them.

Briscoes/ANX is a great match too, and maybe the best ROH match last year (I did like Davey/Eddie BITW btw) and maybe you could have that one too since it was a really good story told.

But that's two matches, and I could name lots more PWG matches that were great.


----------



## Manu_Styles

Bubz said:


> The only one I will give you out of those is the Steen/Generico match.


Why¿? I agree in all the comparation but in the Hero/Tozawa = Edwards/Strong @ MMIV.


----------



## jawbreaker

yeah, in all honesty those are all pretty analogous. the difference is that that's like the four best matches from ROH in 2011 except for Strong/Jay whereas you could list another fifteen PWG matches that were on that level.


----------



## Kid Kamikaze10

Bubz said:


> The only one I will give you out of those is the Steen/Generico match.


I wouldn't even give him that, because the hatred in the PWG match was much clearer throughout the match than it was in Final Battle.

Like, I don't agree with any of that. At all. Especially not the tag match comparison or the Hero/Tozawa comparison. Analogous in terms of concept is one thing. Execution is another.


----------



## EffectRaven

Meh atleast I tried haha you all have great points. Atleast we're in agreement that those were all good matches (Y)


----------



## Coffey

Man, if I had to legitimately rate the main event with snowflakes, after breaking it down & watching it a couple of times.. All things considered, I have no problem saying it was a ***¼* affair. The match was too long, had a bad finish, too much no-selling. Just flawed all over. No heat, emotion, story, etc. But I really don't want to rate it at all because it just feels like one of those matches where before the match they're thinking about star ratings in their mind and that's not how it should be done.

I'm curious at what point in pro-wrestling did "good" equal just making a match longer and throwing in more false finishes? A longer match is not always a positive!


----------



## Beatles123

I just wanted to come back in and say that I don't think ROH trying to say they're the best should be read into too much. When you're a company owned by a sponsor like SBG, certain things are expected with how you market yourself and I think that's true with any company. Look at TNA when they got picked up by Spike, or even ECW on TNN. Products have to change somewhat once they have a network to keep happy. What SBG has done by getting them to try and sell themselves more is far better than what Spike forced TNA to do by bringing in Sting and ultimately all the other old guys, so it could be a lot worse than it is.

Someone mentioned PWG and how it has a more laid back feel due to the crowd--that's simply because they are in a position where they are able to right now. The fact they're smaller gives them more freedom to promote themselves into what they want because they aren't burdened by expectations from anyone. Ultimately when and if they grow big enough, aspects about it will have to change more than likely.

It's not SBG specifically, it's more or less the norm (in my humble opinion.)


----------



## McQueen

I'm pretty sure ROH's whole meta is "We're not like the other guys (WWE/TNA) and we are the best 'Wrestling' company in the world." Which is fine since it gives them a mission statement to say "hey this is what we are" but I personally have found watching ROH the last 2 1/2 years to be like a chore. Can't say that about WWE (although sometimes its just really bad) or PWG.


----------



## RoosterSmith

The tenth anniversary show was suppossed to be just a house show. I think it shows. There isn't enough storyline in ROH. 

I know the term sports entertainment gets a bad wrap. That's because when we think Sports Entertainment, we often think of the worst aspects of it. 

We think, Lita asking a woman not mention her pregnacny to anyone on live TV, we think Dave Batista getting out of a Limo in his wrestling tights or Vince McMahons limo blowing up. 

But every great match from any promotion has had an element of sports entertainment in it. Think the Austin/McMahon fued, DX VS the Hart Foundation, The Sandman VS Raven or the first six months of the NWO ...

ROH thinks it's okay to have TJ Perkins go out and lose a match we all knew he was going to lose. 

It's one thing to do it on ROH Television but PPV's? Let's take a look at each match from the 10th Ann. and see where each went wrong.

1. ANX VS WGTT- I think WGTT is doing a great job together, love the new Haas, but this match had zero build up. It wasn't a PPV match.

2. Homoicide VS Bennett- Why send Homoicide out there in a random match? Is he a part of the roster or not? Again, no build up. 

3. Perkins and Red VS Truth- no build up. House of Truth can be a great team, I love martini but this is the third match on the card where there was no fued. So far the PPV is just an episode of ROH TV and not even a good one.

4. Lethal/Ciampa- I liked the Lethal/Richards match because ROH is the only company aware of themselves. They mentioned that this could have turned into a world title match. 

Lethal is a bit boring, he has to find a new persona, I understand he doesn't wanna do Machismo anymore, but he's gotta find something Entertaining. But I thought this match was okay, I ussually don't like it when a PPV doesn't end things but I'll let it go. 

5. I was in the building when the Bucks won the title shot against the Briscoes. Since then ROH promoted the match by doing three best of 2011 episodes and 3 promos. That's it. Could have been a great fued between two very different teams. Instead all we got was one good match. 

ROH really blew it here. 

6. Really short build up, just like the Bucks/Briscoes. Again, match was good, but that's not ROH's problem.

7. The main event was cool, I like "The Hurt Feelings" storyline.

There is a severe lack of sports entertainment in this promotion. You're not supposed to call it that, you're supposed to call it Pro Wrestling. But you're supposed to have the crazy, over the top stuff in there, ROH doesn't have it.


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## Coffey

If the basis of your promotion is that you provide better wrestling than the competition, it only works if you actually provide better wrestling than the competition. 

It could work, in theory. Hell, I know it used to. However right now C.M. Punk is WWE Champion & getting ready to wrestle Chris Jericho at Wrestlemania. Daniel Bryan is World Heavyweight Champion and even Austin Aries is X-Division champion in TNA. Actual in-ring wrestling wise, I think WWE is better than Ring of Honor right now. So maybe that is a part of the problem? At least from my perspective. You don't really want to say that you're the best at one area, focus solely on that area and then get one-upped in that area!

Even if you think that they are equals in-ring or maybe ROH is slightly ahead (because I think the majority of us would agree that it is not a blow-out), once you factor in production too? It's a tough sell.

It's already sort of turned into a "remember when ROH used to be good?" feeling and I hope it doesn't turn into the dreaded "well, at least they're cheap!" zone.


----------



## Tony Tornado

RoosterSmith said:


> There is a severe lack of sports entertainment in this promotion. You're not supposed to call it that, you're supposed to call it Pro Wrestling. But you're supposed to have the crazy, over the top stuff in there, ROH doesn't have it.


I agree with what you said and I think it doesn't even need to be crazy, over the top stuff. Just legitimate storylines about in-ring competition and who's the best. There's no need for pregnancies and attacking people at home.


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## Kingleviathan

Seabs said:


> *The idea that "TNA is shit so how can you complain about ROH" is stupid too. There's no link between them. They're 2 separate promotions. Just because TNA is shit doesn't mean we have to lower our standards for ROH.*


I always find it funny that this section seems to be six months behind, I say that because the idea that TNA is shit started disappearing in September and was gone nearly completely by November, interestingly at the same time ROH started getting hate and by the end of the year became the new promotion that's used as an example of a bad wrestling promotion.


----------



## KingCrash

Seabs was just using TNA as an example since one of VIG's points is basically "why complain about ROH when TNA and WWE are bad?" TNA is getting better but let's not act like they don't still have their moments (like Thursday with the KO Tag Titles and Garrett Bischoff). All companies do. One company's mistakes don't lessen another's.


----------



## seabs

Shirley Crabtree III said:


> There's nothing artistic or intellectual about the PWG product, and it's redundant to pretend that it's creatively superior to _any_ of it's competitors.
> 
> Ultimately, the whole concept behind that promotion is to take ROH matches/feuds to a West Coast audience, that can't see them in person otherwise, and to give friends of the promoters somewhere to goof around in a ring. PWG very rarely take the time to hype or promote matches and almost never develop PWG-specific characters for their big name indy bring-ins. Booking and psychology are two things that they just don't give a fuck about.
> 
> Let's be honest here, this whole "creatively PWG > All" thing is coming from a tiny group of hardcore, never-miss-a-show ROH fans that have managed to troll themselves into trollhood. Ask Excalibur if he thinks that PWG has artistically-relevant, intricately-structured matches and he'll just laugh.


*Nobody has said in this thread that PWG runs better storylines than ROH or is better creatively than ROH. That's just your go to card whenever the PWG/ROH discussion comes up.

The argument is that PWG matches on the whole have better structure and story to them than ROH matches currently do. Nothing to do with storylines. I don't think anyone has ever said that PWG run great angles. They don't even pretend that they do themselves. What they do is put on a great wrestling show every 4-8 weeks that is fun to sit through, not a chore like ROH shows have been. I just posted a list of matches that were well structured and had a clear story to them. I'd love to see a similar list for ROH matches in the past year.

Oh and the "copying ROH matches" idea is garbage too. Let's look at their main events from last year:
Claudio vs Generico
Bucks vs Steen/Tozawa
Bucks vs Generico/Ricochet
Claudio vs Hero
Claudio vs Ki
Claudio vs Hero
Steen vs Generico
Steen vs Davey
Steen vs Generico
Steen/Dragon vs Bucks

I'll give you Steen vs Davey. Claudio/Hero isn't a ROH feud and neither is Claudio/Generico and they added their own chapter to the Steen/Generico feud.*


Walk-In said:


> If the basis of your promotion is that you provide better wrestling than the competition, it only works if you actually provide better wrestling than the competition.


*That was ROH's selling point during their best run and it was true. They differentiated themselves from WWE and TNA by claiming they had the best straight up wrestling shows and they delivered. They're still kinda trying to use that as their USP but it's not true anymore. WWE even had a better year quality wise than ROH did. It's not so much a criticism if they work with what they have and don't force themselves to rely on an old claim that they cant back up anymore. 

They really do need to make the product easier to watch though. The sports entertainment line is good. They seem to forget at times that wrestling is pointless if it's not entertaining. *


Kingleviathan said:


> I always find it funny that this section seems to be six months behind, I say that because the idea that TNA is shit started disappearing in September and was gone nearly completely by November, interestingly at the same time ROH started getting hate and by the end of the year became the new promotion that's used as an example of a bad wrestling promotion.


*KingCrash kinda covered this. The other guy used TNA as an example so I used it too for arguments sake.

I only follow the results but it does still seem as though they put on more poor stuff that confuses you than good stuff.*


----------



## Kingleviathan

KingCrash said:


> Seabs was just using TNA as an example since one of VIG's points is basically "why complain about ROH when TNA and WWE are bad?" TNA is getting better but let's not act like they don't still have their moments (like Thursday with the KO Tag Titles and Garrett Bischoff). All companies do. One company's mistakes don't lessen another's.


I don't think the Garrett Bischoff storyline is a mistake, they've actually booked it very well, but I can understand why people might think it is. It'll at least be interesting when Garrett turns on Hogan to massive heat, plus it keeps Gunner on TV.


----------



## seabs

*From what I hear the problem with it is that Garrett is nowhere near ready for TV which obviously isn't his fault.*


----------



## SHIRLEY

Kid Kamikaze10 said:


> Ok, but do you have any proof of that? Examples?


Excalibur saying, during Low Ki and Claudio's ASW8 World Title match, "Did Bryan Danielson ever hold our belt?". 

That just sums the company's whole approach up. They're unashamed about the fact that they don't put any thought into the product. They just stage matches that look good on paper, at a particular moment in time, and pay no attention to silly things like context, continuity and tone.

Due to this (outside of SoCal natives) one of the main audiences that PWG appeals to is the minority of fans that rate matches as though they exist a vacuum. It's the mentality of _"5*s for the "underdog match" structure...dunno what the concept of an underdog is, in the context of PWG's own history...but 5*s for following a generic template"_.

Another classic example is the way that PWG brought in Future Shock. They put them in a meaningless back-and-forth match with their most legendary team, straight off the bat. They didn't develop a gimmick for FS, no finishers/signature moves, no entrance music, no friends and foes, no trademark poses, nothing. They just blew their load on the DREAM MATCH~! and then let FS drop onto the midcard carousel, with everyone else.

Booking decisions like that make it impossible to invest in PWG's product without investing in ROH's characters. This is why any PWG fan that claims to be too intellectually advanced to enjoy ROH shouldn't be taken too seriously.



Kid Kamikaze10 said:


> tl;dr version: Do you have a point, or are you just going to be obtusely defensive about this ROH/PWG debate?


What would I be defending? A terribly-booked ROH show that I have no intention of watching in full?


----------



## Kid Kamikaze10

I'll admit, I was (and still am in) a bad mood, and I let it out on you. So for that, I'm sorry. 




Shirley Crabtree III said:


> Excalibur saying, during Low Ki and Claudio's ASW8 World Title match, "Did Bryan Danielson ever hold our belt?".
> 
> That just sums the company's whole approach up. They're unashamed about the fact that they don't put any thought into the product. They just stage matches that look good on paper, at a particular moment in time, and pay no attention to silly things like context, continuity and tone.
> 
> Due to this (outside of SoCal natives) one of the main audiences that PWG appeals to is the minority of fans that rate matches as though they exist a vacuum. It's the mentality of _"5*s for the "underdog match" structure...dunno what the concept of an underdog is, in the context of PWG's own history...but 5*s for following a generic template"_.
> 
> Another classic example is the way that PWG brought in Future Shock. They put them in a meaningless back-and-forth match with their most legendary team, straight off the bat. They didn't develop a gimmick for FS, no finishers/signature moves, no entrance music, no friends and foes, no trademark poses, nothing. They just blew their load on the DREAM MATCH~! and then let FS drop onto the midcard carousel, with everyone else.
> 
> Booking decisions like that make it impossible to invest in PWG's product without investing in ROH's characters. This is why any PWG fan that claims to be too intellectually advanced to enjoy ROH shouldn't be taken too seriously.


Ok, I somewhat agree with you.

However, I think you are overrating the vacuum affect in PWG, though it is definitely there. Usually, the longer a wrestler is around, the more context/continuity shows up. At least on commentary.

And I personally do see the value of rating matches in a vacuum. Sometimes, that helps differentiate the matches that really are only great due to outside of the ring stuff, and the ones that are great for the in-ring actions. 



> What would I be defending? A terribly-booked ROH show that I have no intention of watching in full?


Yeah, that was the irrational part. Sorry about that.


----------



## jawbreaker

Shirley Crabtree III said:


> Another classic example is the way that PWG brought in Future Shock. They put them in a meaningless back-and-forth match with their most legendary team, straight off the bat. They didn't develop a gimmick for FS, no finishers/signature moves, no entrance music, no friends and foes, no trademark poses, nothing. They just blew their load on the DREAM MATCH~! and then let FS drop onto the midcard carousel, with everyone else.


Another classic example is the way that ROH brought in KENTA. They put him in a meaningless back-and-forth match with their most legendary wrestler, straight off the bat. They didn't develop a gimmick for KENTA, no finishers/signature moves, no entrance music, no friends and foes, no trademark poses, nothing. They just blew their load on the DREAM MATCH~! and then let FS drop onto the midcard carousel, with everyone else.

while yes, Future Shock walked in with a ready-made reputation, as have guys like Eddie Edwards, Alex Shelley, and Ricochet, a whole bunch of other guys didn't. Tozawa, the RockNES Monsters, and Willie Mack are probably the best recent examples (the Young Bucks are older), but then there's guys like Peter Avalon and Brian Cage-Taylor who have done it as well, and Famous B, Chris Kadillak, and Ray Rosas who are starting to.

Notice a trend? The guys that jump into the company without any real introductory period are the guys who are readily viewable elsewhere. They're the guys who PWG expects their fans to know, and really, is that an unfair expectation in this day and age? They can build guys up if they have to (though they've missed a bit lately with Gatson, Ryan Taylor, and the Cutlers), but they don't insult the fans' intelligence by holding out on Future Shock vs. the Young Bucks (which the fans want to see), under the pretense of establishing characters for a team whose characters most of the fans are familiar with.



Shirley Crabtree III said:


> Booking decisions like that make it impossible to invest in PWG's product without investing in ROH's characters. This is why any PWG fan that claims to be too intellectually advanced to enjoy ROH shouldn't be taken too seriously.


The flaw here is that you give credit for characters to ROH, not to the wrestlers. You can get invested in Kevin Steen's character without watching ROH. While it's a character Steen also plays in ROH, it's still Steen's character, and it's entirely possible to figure it out and appreciate it purely from watching him in PWG. Ditto for Generico, Future Shock, etc. Seeing the roots of a character and all of its evolution is nice, and can lead to a greater understanding, but it's not like you can't figure out a good wrestler's character from watching him show it off in a match.


----------



## Bubz

When did anyone claim to be to intellectually advanced for ROH? Or when did anyone even give that impression? Because someone claimed that PWG matches, for the most part, are better structured than ROH matches, that makes them too intelligent for ROH? Or am I missing something.


----------



## Matt Flash

Not sure if this has been brought up at all, but I just watched the show and Jesus Christ... does Steen always wrestle in the shorts now? It makes him look so damn bush league. And I love Kevin Steen. His character and promos stand out and are entertaining, normally pitch perfect. But I was hoping the shorts were only because of the No DQ stip. Then they showed the TV show clip and he was still in shorts.

I've accepted that he's fat. He did a great job losing a bunch of weight while he was away from ROH, but now that he's back it's like he's gaining it all back en force. I can be OK with that. I'm almost even OK with him wearing a shirt again, though I'd rather he just did without like he has since he came back in '07. 

But the shorts? Come on. They just look so low-rate. And he's supposed to be challenging for the World Title. I get that CM Punk wore shorts for years, but he also went without a shirt. And they were personalized. Steen looks like he just rolled out of bed and was like, "Oh, I have a match tonight... fuck it, I'm not changing. It's not like ROH cares."

Maybe this is just me but it really freaking bothers me. It takes away from all the good stuff that Steen does. Anybody else share the sentiment? And sorry if this was already posted somewhere in here, I'm not ever going to be in the mood to scan 600+ posts haha.


----------



## Kincaid

That's the point, I think. He doesn't give a crap about his look or being "cosmetically pleasing". He looks like crap on purpose. The guy owns actual gear. This is a deliberate decision on his part. Same as the nasty beard was!


----------



## TelkEvolon

Steen is meant to be a force of nature. He should look like a bum off of the street and just blow you away as he passes on through.

I don't see it as being an issue, but it is a vaild point that people could have an issue with, especially with all the hype surrounding him and then the first impression is just a guy off of the street.


----------



## scrilla

I think he looks better in his current attire than he does in a singlet lol.


----------



## TelkEvolon

scrilla said:


> I think he looks better in his current attire than he does in a singlet lol.


Yeah, covers it up at bit. Looks cooler also.


----------



## Matt Flash

Yeah I understand what they're going for, I just think they could do it in different ways than having his current look be his gear. People who already know about Steen have either learned to live with the eye sore because he's such a damn good character and wrestler, or stopped liking him because he looks like shit. It's stupid, but he doesn't pass the "eye test", and that matters to a lot of people. That's a pretty awful first impression, and it just makes it an uphill battle to sell Steen to new fans. What this does right now is give him less of a chance to keep a new viewer's attention because they'll look at him, see absolutely nothing special, and change the channel.

Now that's not a blanket statement, as I'm sure there will be some new viewers that also didn't give a damn, which is great. Steen will "wow" you if you give him a chance.

And as for the bum off the street look... Necro Butcher is the only guy I've seen believably pull it off. But then that wasn't much of a gimmick for him, haha. 

So I can see where you guys are coming from, and I don't think any of us are wrong, so much as different perspectives and tastes and blah blah blah.


----------



## Chismo

People still comparing ROH and PWG? Sweet Jesus, this section is becoming the WWE sub-forum, Vol. 2.


----------



## xpantherx

has there been any news of buyrates? Curious to see if the price drop increased numbers a bit (even though there wasn't a world title match)


----------



## smitlick

Meltzer mentioned nothing in the past observer. I'd assume he'll say something this week.


----------



## Rah

Where do you guys read his ratings and thoughts, or are you all subscribers?


----------



## seabs

*You can download all the podcasts they do off XWT or PWT if you can't pay for the subscription.*


----------



## smitlick

I'm a subscriber. Mainly for the Dr Keith shows and the non Meltzer MMA stuff they do. There podcasts are really good.


----------



## SeanWrestling

Matt Flash said:


> Steen looks like he just rolled out of bed and was like, "Oh, I have a match tonight... fuck it, I'm not changing. It's not like ROH cares."


LOL.But the shorts fits his character perfectly.He just don't care and that's what makes him the perfect foe to Davey Richards who takes things too seriously.Davey's whole look is that off an athlete, which Steen is always making fun of.


----------

