# Should trans-teen be able to use girl's lockeroom?



## cenation34 (Jul 17, 2012)

HILLSBORO, MO. - An effort by a transgender student to use the girls bathroom has split Hillsboro High School, with some of her peers walking out in protest and others holding a counter demonstration to show their support.

Lila Perry said she wants to be treated like other female students and told school administrators that she wasn’t content in continuing to use a unisex faculty bathroom this year, the St. Louis Post-Dispatch reported.

The 17-year-old’s decision prompted some students to leave the campus near St. Louis on Monday, following last week’s school board meeting in which parents expressed concern that Perry was receiving special rights at the expense of other students.

The school’s gay-straight alliance and other supporters held their own protest to show their support for Perry.

Skyla Thompson said Perry, whom she calls her best friend, often stays at her house overnight while Perry’s family tries to come to grips with their child identifying as transgender.

“She is such a good person. They are just judging her on the outside,” Skyla said of those who have been critical of Perry.

Superintendent Aaron D. Cornman declined to comment to the newspaper on the issue, but gave a written statement that said the district respects the rights of all students and “appreciates the fact that the students we are educating are willing to stand on their belief system and to support their cause/beliefs through their expression of free speech.”

His statement adds that the district accepts all students no matter their race, gender or sexual orientation.

“We will promote tolerance and acceptance of all students that attend our district while not tolerating bullying/harassing behaviors of any type in any form,” the statement reads.

Perry said the school administration has been supportive and made her feel welcome. She said they have allowed her to use the facilities used by girls and women.

“I wasn’t hurting anyone. I didn’t want to be in something gender-neutral,” she said, referring to the faculty bathroom. “I am a girl. I am not going to be pushed away to another bathroom.”

Read more here: http://www.kansascity.com/news/state/missouri/article33388713.html#storylink=cpy


----------



## Zatiel (Dec 6, 2010)

*Re: Should trans-teen be able to use girl's lockerroom?*

If she identifies as female and dresses in female-gendered clothing, then you have two options:

1. Have her change in the girls' locker room and get some weird looks. 
2. Have her change in the guys' locker room and get the shit beaten out of her.

Choice feels pretty obvious to me.


----------



## Achilles (Feb 27, 2014)

*Re: Should trans-teen be able to use girl's lockerroom?*

If I had a daughter I certainly would not want this guy in the same locker room or washroom as her.


----------



## Loudon Wainwright (Jul 23, 2014)

*Re: Should trans-teen be able to use girl's lockerroom?*

*FUCK NO!*

This same thing was a big issue in my state earlier this year, and I think now what I thought then. If you have a dick, you can change with the other people with dicks. If you choose to live your life as a transgender person, there are certain privileges that you must give up. The idea of a dick flopping around in a room full of teen girls is repulsive, unless said dick is mine.

People will abuse the shit out of this.

1. Hi guys, um... I'm totally becoming a woman now, cool right?
2. easy access to all the teen pussy and titties you could ever want


----------



## HardKoR (May 19, 2009)

*Re: Should trans-teen be able to use girl's lockerroom?*

The problem with this is simple; allowing him her to use the girls restroom will inevitably lead to someone taking advantage of it. A straight male will pretend to be a transgender just to cop and eyeful, or worse, commit sexual assault. While I am not denying the transgender to their identity, there needs to be a line somewhere and I believe the unisex restroom is more than adequate.

Edit: Technically the correct solution is to have all locker rooms/restrooms unisex, but you know damn well that wont work.


----------



## stevefox1200 (Jul 7, 2009)

*Re: Should trans-teen be able to use girl's lockerroom?*

If you have a dick you are in the dick room

Its pretty simple 

If you get surgery than you can go into the other room 

Plus only a fool gives up access to the urinal, it has all of the fun of pissing on the wall with none of the backlash


----------



## Piers (Sep 1, 2015)

*Re: Should trans-teen be able to use girl's lockerroom?*

I tried that too, I got caught when girls realized I had a boner


----------



## Count Vertigo (Jun 30, 2015)

*Re: Should trans-teen be able to use girl's lockerroom?*

*What the actual fuck.*


----------



## CornNthemorN (Sep 14, 2013)

*Re: Should trans-teen be able to use girl's lockerroom?*

People need to realize what this is ALL about. Why it's so cool to be gay, legalizing of weed, racial tension being magnified, Caitlin Jenner being idolized as some sort of hero.....THERE' JUST TOO MANY PEOPLE!

The government knows it. That's why they glorify all these things that will eventually lead to what? PEOPLE NOT REPRODUCING.

No this young man with a wig on should not be allowed to change and get naked in front of young girls. But at the end of this all he will be a hero and an inspiration to countless other little boys to chop their dicks off and not make babies. Genius when you think about it....


----------



## Chrome (Jan 11, 2012)

*Re: Should trans-teen be able to use girl's lockerroom?*

Nah he shouldn't.


----------



## The Masked One (Aug 29, 2015)

*Re: Should trans-teen be able to use girl's lockerroom?*

Pff.. Just a lame excuse to get in the girls' locker room. Good one.


----------



## UntilDawn (Sep 2, 2015)

*Re: Should trans-teen be able to use girl's lockerroom?*

Nope if the person still has a male organ, the penis then she has to use the uni-sex bathroom.


----------



## Loudon Wainwright (Jul 23, 2014)

*Re: Should trans-teen be able to use girl's lockerroom?*

I identify as a dog. If you don't allow me to sniff your butt as a greeting, you will be sued for discrimination. #OtherkinRightsMatter


----------



## obby (May 19, 2009)

*Re: Should trans-teen be able to use girl's lockerroom?*

Doesn't even look like a chick :lol


----------



## 3MB4Life (Apr 3, 2014)

*Re: Should trans-teen be able to use girl's lockerroom?*



Loudon Wainwright said:


> I identify as a dog. If you don't allow me to sniff your butt as a greeting, you will be sued for discrimination. #OtherkinRightsMatter


I know man. I identify as a box jellyfish so unless you let me inject people with a deadly poison who get within my personal space, you're discriminating against me. It's a tough world out there for us otherkin.


----------



## Stormbringer (May 3, 2008)

*Re: Should trans-teen be able to use girl's lockerroom?*

Want to be treated like everybody else? EVERYONE USES UNISEX RESTROOMS!


----------



## A-C-P (Jan 5, 2010)

*Re: Should trans-teen be able to use girl's lockerroom?*

So then if I identify myself as a woman, then I can use the female locker room at the gym?

Seriously I have nothing against people being whatever they want to be, or being whatever they are (depending on your views about choice and being born that way) but these people also need to realize that they live in a society and in a society what is good for the many is more important than what is good for the few, especially when it comes to kids still in school.

Though as I say this I realize where all this is eventually leading, every place is going to have to have 6 different restrooms/locker rooms

Male
Female
Gay Male
Gay Female
Trans Male
Trans Female


----------



## Blackbeard (Apr 23, 2014)

*Re: Should trans-teen be able to use girl's lockerroom?*

Pre-op = No

Post-op = I don't see why not.


----------



## CamillePunk (Feb 10, 2011)

*Re: Should trans-teen be able to use girl's lockerroom?*

Faculty bathrooms are usually pretty awesome compared to what the students have to use. I'd be thrilled for the privilege.


----------



## TerraRising (Aug 5, 2015)

*Re: Should trans-teen be able to use girl's lockerroom?*

Such a sweet transvestite.


----------



## ★Th0t Patr0L★ (Oct 22, 2013)

*Re: Should trans-teen be able to use girl's lockerroom?*

If they're pre-transition, let them use a unisex bathroom. Post-transition I'm 100% okay with them using the bathroom of the sex they've transitioned to. Not because I think trans people will do anything wrong, but because it makes it easier for everyone involved and less awkward. :shrug

Parents will bitch, the trans kid could be bullied, and the cisgender kids could be, well, uncomfortable let's be honest. 

Perhaps that's slightly transphobic of me, but eh.


----------



## CJ (Jun 28, 2011)

*Re: Should trans-teen be able to use girl's lockerroom?*

:nah He should use the unisex bathroom.


----------



## ★Th0t Patr0L★ (Oct 22, 2013)

*Re: Should trans-teen be able to use girl's lockerroom?*

I always subscribed to the policy of letting trans students change in a room all their own, though, particularly pre-transition. Like, this trans girl should not be forced to change in the boys' locker room. That's just asking for trouble. Set aside a staff bathroom for her or something.


----------



## CamillePunk (Feb 10, 2011)

*Re: Should trans-teen be able to use girl's lockerroom?*



Jack Thwagger said:


> I always subscribed to the policy of letting trans students change in a room all their own, though, particularly pre-transition. Like, this trans girl should not be forced to change in the boys' locker room. That's just asking for trouble. Set aside a staff bathroom for her or something.


They are, it's in the second line of the OP. She's complaining that she doesn't want to use the unisex staff bathroom, she wants to use the same bathroom as the non-trans girls.

I'm not sure why the thread title says locker room. The article is about bathrooms.


----------



## ★Th0t Patr0L★ (Oct 22, 2013)

*Re: Should trans-teen be able to use girl's lockerroom?*



CamillePunk said:


> They are, it's in the second line of the OP. She's complaining that she doesn't want to use the unisex staff bathroom, she wants to use the same bathroom as the non-trans girls.
> 
> I'm not sure why the thread title says locker room. The article is about bathrooms.


I figured as much, I just wanted to clarify myself.


----------



## Stone Cold Steve Urkel (Sep 6, 2011)

*Re: Should trans-teen be able to use girl's lockerroom?*

Schools normally have more than two bathrooms, why not designate one bathroom for the physically and mentally handicapped people and trans people to share. Actually, that'd be a problem seeing as any able-bodied person can go in and shit in a urinal and smear shit all over the walls- the mentally handicapped could do that as well though. What about ID scanners before going in? Or have a security guard waiting in the area, just in case shit pops off. It's too much work for a basic school if things go awry. Maybe just have the trans student change and relieve themselves in the gas station bathroom across the street, just to be safe.


----------



## Blackbeard (Apr 23, 2014)

*Re: Should trans-teen be able to use girl's lockerroom?*

This thread just makes me think about that South Park episode.

_I am Lorde ya ya ya_


----------



## CamillePunk (Feb 10, 2011)

*Re: Should trans-teen be able to use girl's lockerroom?*



Stone Cold Steve Urkel said:


> Schools normally have more than two bathrooms, why not designate one bathroom for the physically and mentally handicapped people and trans people to share. Actually, that'd be a problem seeing as any able-bodied person can go in and shit in a urinal and smear shit all over the walls- the mentally handicapped could do that as well though. What about ID scanners before going in? Or have a security guard waiting in the area, just in case shit pops off. It's too much work for a basic school if things go awry. Maybe just have the trans student change and relieve themselves in the gas station bathroom across the street, just to be safe.


I love that you're naive enough to think that shoving trans people in the same category as the handicapped would go over well at all in today's political climate. :lol


----------



## Stone Cold Steve Urkel (Sep 6, 2011)

*Re: Should trans-teen be able to use girl's lockerroom?*



CamillePunk said:


> I love that you're naive enough to think that shoving trans people in the same category as the handicapped would go over well at all in today's political climate. :lol


My suggestion was shoving them in the same special bathroom, didn't call trans people mentally handicapped or physically handicapped. You did.


----------



## Riddle101 (Aug 15, 2006)

*Re: Should trans-teen be able to use girl's lockerroom?*

Tough topic, but I would put it down to the student body of the high school. The students should be allowed to vote on whether or not the trans gender student be allowed to use the girl's bathroom/lockeroom or not. If anyone should have a say in this, it should be them.


----------



## Terrence (Aug 10, 2015)

*Re: Should trans-teen be able to use girl's lockerroom?*

What an uncle fucker!


----------



## Harry Osborn (Aug 31, 2015)

*Re: Should trans-teen be able to use girl's lockerroom?*

I don't give a damn if he/she is mentally a girl, I would be MORTIFIED if I ever had to share a changeroom with a boy. No, I'm sorry but you're still a boy, at least for now.


----------



## Miss Sally (Jul 14, 2014)

*Re: Should trans-teen be able to use girl's lockerroom?*

pre-op = unisex bathroom/boys bathroom, post-op = girls bathroom/unisex bathroom. No real argument to it.


----------



## CM Chump (Jun 25, 2014)

*Re: Should trans-teen be able to use girl's lockerroom?*

Equal rights will never occur, and it's time the LGBT community realized that. For better or worse, no matter what, this person will always be viewed by many as a bizarre creature or pervert. Let them in all you want, it won't stop the criticism or people being uncomfortable around them. You've gotta draw the line somewhere, and to me, it seems perfectly reasonable to put that line at this guys zipper. His dick stays in his pants as long as he has it.


----------



## LaMelo (Jan 13, 2015)

*Re: Should trans-teen be able to use girl's lockerroom?*

I don't have a problem with it as long as it is before or after everyone else has a turn.


----------



## Heath V (Apr 9, 2014)

*Re: Should trans-teen be able to use girl's lockerroom?*

Hell no, it's a boy not a girl!


----------



## ManiacMichaelMyers (Oct 23, 2009)

*Re: Should trans-teen be able to use girl's lockerroom?*



Zatiel said:


> If she identifies as female and dresses in female-gendered clothing, then you have two options:
> 
> 1. Have her change in the girls' locker room and get some weird looks.
> 2. Have her change in the guys' locker room and get the shit beaten out of her.
> ...


Actually there was a choice three: Change in a gender neutral bathroom.
The article wasn't that long.
She didn't want to do it and is forcing the issue. 

I think we can all agree that the boys locker room is out.
So two choices remain, girls locker room or her own gender neutral one. 
If there are girls that are uncomfortable with the situation, I think their views should be respected as well. IMO trans aren't the sex of the gender they identify with. Even with hormones they aren't that biological sex. So yes, she's a girl but she's also a trans-girl which is distinct form being biologically female. 

I think the gender neutral option is best in this situation where girls are being made to feel uncomfortable changing with what used to be a guy. It really makes sense once you think of it that way. Even if there is no sexual attraction, this trans girl was still at one time a guy so that is making some girls uncomfortable.


----------



## MELTZERMANIA (Apr 15, 2015)

Loudon Wainwright said:


> *FUCK NO!*
> 
> This same thing was a big issue in my state earlier this year, and I think now what I thought then. If you have a dick, you can change with the other people with dicks. If you choose to live your life as a transgender person, there are certain privileges that you must give up. The idea of a dick flopping around in a room full of teen girls is repulsive, *unless said dick is mine.*
> 
> ...


^^^Closet Jared fan over here.


----------



## MELTZERMANIA (Apr 15, 2015)

CornNthemorN said:


> People need to realize what this is ALL about. Why it's so cool to be gay, legalizing of weed, racial tension being magnified, Caitlin Jenner being idolized as some sort of hero.....THERE' JUST TOO MANY PEOPLE!
> 
> The government knows it. That's why they glorify all these things that will eventually lead to what? PEOPLE NOT REPRODUCING.
> 
> No this young man with a wig on should not be allowed to change and get naked in front of young girls. But at the end of this all he will be a hero and an inspiration to countless other little boys to chop their dicks off and not make babies. Genius when you think about it....


Not sure what legalizing cannabis has to do with any of that...can you elaborate?


----------



## PaulHeyamnGuy (Feb 2, 2015)

*Re: Should trans-teen be able to use girl's lockerroom?*

No. Not because of trasgender dudes and girls, but because there would be a lot of weirdos taking advantage of the gender inclussion. This implies also that girls transitioned into men should use the male's room. Imagine what a fucking mayhem that'd be. 
Society is just not ready, maybe try the next century or something. Until then, settle with the goddamn gender neutral rooms. 



MELTZERMANIA said:


> Not sure what legalizing cannabis has to do with any of that...can you elaborate?


I was going to ask the same thing.


----------



## dashing_man (Dec 3, 2014)

*Re: Should trans-teen be able to use girl's lockerroom?*

why would anyone want a boy who thinks he's a girl in a girls locker-room. unkout


----------



## Vox Machina (May 22, 2014)

*Re: Should trans-teen be able to use girl's lockerroom?*

The answer is yes, if the person in question is really trans.


----------



## whelp (Jun 8, 2015)

*Re: Should trans-teen be able to use girl's lockerroom?*

dude has a wang, into the boys locker room methinks.

or the unisex one, why make an issue of it?

where's he going to keep the foetus? in a box?


----------



## TheResurrection (Dec 21, 2011)

*Re: Should trans-teen be able to use girl's lockerroom?*



CornNthemorN said:


> People need to realize what this is ALL about. Why it's so cool to be gay, legalizing of weed, racial tension being magnified, Caitlin Jenner being idolized as some sort of hero.....THERE' JUST TOO MANY PEOPLE!
> 
> The government knows it. That's why they glorify all these things that will eventually lead to what? PEOPLE NOT REPRODUCING.
> 
> No this young man with a wig on should not be allowed to change and get naked in front of young girls. But at the end of this all he will be a hero and an inspiration to countless other little boys to chop their dicks off and not make babies. Genius when you think about it....


You don't have a clue what you're talking about, you should be ashamed of writing this and so should anyone who liked it.

People not reproducing is a nightmare for any government. Reduced birthrates are already and it's expected to be one of the biggest problems western countries are going to face in this century. The young pay for the old to retire, life expectancy is only going in one direction - up, if there are more young people and less old people there are only three options for the government to take

A) Increase retirement age and reduce the money retirees get
B) Increase taxes on the young 
C) Increase immigration so that workers can pay for the ageing population

All of these are deeply unpopular, A is a very difficult option because the old vote more than the young and would likely boot out any government who tried it, B&C create unrest among large segments of the population. Either way this is not a problem any government wants to even think about dealing with in the short term. There's no fucking way the government is trying to reduce birth rates.


----------



## Heath V (Apr 9, 2014)

*Re: Should trans-teen be able to use girl's lockerroom?*

Stories like this make me sick, shame our kids have to grow up in a world like this.

Nice wig, lol..


----------



## CornNthemorN (Sep 14, 2013)

*Re: Should trans-teen be able to use girl's lockerroom?*



MELTZERMANIA said:


> Not sure what legalizing cannabis has to do with any of that...can you elaborate?





TheResurrection said:


> You don't have a clue what you're talking about, you should be ashamed of writing this and so should anyone who liked it.
> 
> People not reproducing is a nightmare for any government. Reduced birthrates are already and it's expected to be one of the biggest problems western countries are going to face in this century. The young pay for the old to retire, life expectancy is only going in one direction - up, if there are more young people and less old people there are only three options for the government to take
> 
> ...


Its a wild speculation I know, but think about who's really having babies in america. The majority of these babies are welfare babies right? No way the government is tired of paying for that. Our government is happy about the thought of illegal immigrants coming over and having....what did trump call em? Anchor babies? Just cuz he was dumb enough to say it doesn't mean he's the only old republican that feels that way. 

For those that asked, weed is known to reduce sperm count


----------



## TheResurrection (Dec 21, 2011)

*Re: Should trans-teen be able to use girl's lockerroom?*



CornNthemorN said:


> Its a wild speculation I know, but think about who's really having babies in america. The majority of these babies are welfare babies right? No way the government is tired of paying for that. Our government is happy about the thought of illegal immigrants coming over and having....what did trump call em? Anchor babies? Just cuz he was dumb enough to say it doesn't mean he's the only old republican that feels that way.
> 
> For those that asked, weed is known to reduce sperm count


"Welfare babies" contribute more over their working lives than they take, they're still a net gain as far as the government is concerned. "Anchor babies" barely even exist.


----------



## KO Bossy (Oct 23, 2011)

*Re: Should trans-teen be able to use girl's lockerroom?*

I have a good friend who is trans, yet even I'm of two minds of this. Probably because I can see both sides of the issue.

On the one hand, if this young man truly identifies as female, then that's something to be nurtured, not scorned. This may be an unpopular view to some, but its how I feel. People have the right to identify with how they want, and its nobody's business except theirs. And as a society, its our responsibility to help them and be accepting, not to label them an outcast.


On the other hand, the whole issue of people identifying as the opposite sex is still a fairly new concept for humanity, and its only within the past few decades that we, as a species, have really brought it to the forefront as a serious issue. Since its so new, a lot of us aren't exactly accustomed to the idea and still think its weird because of it being so different. And what happens when humanity is faced with something different? We tend to attack it out of fear. I mean, women first got the vote starting in about 1916. The suffrage movement had been going on for decades before that. Prior to that, they'd been the classic archetype we all think of-take care of kids, prepare meals, etc. That's how humanity had been living for thousands of years. Its how we behaved instinctually. So here we are in 2015 and there are still some people against women's rights. Many of us have made the transition much more seamlessly, but others haven't. The fact of the matter is that you can't go from living for a way for thousands of years (a patriarchal society) and suddenly, in about a hundred, completely change everyone's thinking. It just isn't going to happen. Same for this. Being trans requires us to change our mentality that girls are girls, boys are boys. In the past, the thought of a gender reversal has been some weird abomination. Many people today still think that. And some of them go to this school. I mean, if you're 17 and you see a boy dressed as a girl changing with you, you may get offended. You may not. I could understand why you'd be, though. You may feel your privacy is being violated or don't want to see male genitals. Perfectly understandable.

Trans people and supporters ultimately want to change society's thinking to incorporate their way of thinking, preferences and identity into humanity's overall list of acceptable features. Which I agree with. Not because I have a trans friend, but because I believe people should be who they want to be. If you can't be yourself, then what's the point of life? However, its clear that humanity isn't fully ready for that step. We have to weight the rights of the many vs. the rights of the few. Yes, its psychologically scarring for a young man identifying as a woman to be repressed, and its not fair to them. But its also psychologically scarring to force others to accept that person when they aren't ready and/or willing to, not to mention let that person see them in a private setting, and that's not fair to those people. Ultimately there are less trans people out there and more people offended by it, so...what do we do? Right now, it seems kind of foolish to put out a whole bunch of people just to satisfy the needs of one. So let this young woman change in the teacher's bathroom or unisex bathroom for the time being. All we can hope for is that some day, humanity grows to be more accepting so that things like this aren't an issue. But sadly, that day is far off, methinks.


----------



## Karma101 (Sep 7, 2012)

*Re: Should trans-teen be able to use girl's lockerroom?*

Still looks like a guy.

Anyway I agree with the sentiment that they should go into the guys restroom if they are still pre-op.


----------



## Simply Flawless (Mar 28, 2011)

*Re: Should trans-teen be able to use girl's lockerroom?*

I wouldn't be that comfortable knowing that there's a pre op transgender in the female locker room i mean post op is fine but there are many ways it can be abused for non trans to get into the female locker room. Either that or have unisex


----------



## polar bear (Jul 29, 2015)

*Re: Should trans-teen be able to use girl's lockerroom?*

I'd be fuckin all dem bitches Joe


----------



## DeeGirl (Aug 18, 2014)

*Re: Should trans-teen be able to use girl's lockerroom?*

No. She shouldn't be treated like the other female students because she isn't like the other female students, I know it sounds harsh but it is true. She will never be a true female. Plus if any transgender guy had the right to get changed with the girls, then you just know some pervert would try and take advantage of that rule :lol


----------



## Kiz (Dec 2, 2006)

*Re: Should trans-teen be able to use girl's lockerroom?*

gonna have to learn how to tuck


----------



## 5 Star Giulia ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ (Apr 21, 2014)

*Re: Should trans-teen be able to use girl's lockerroom?*

*Nope, that's what unisex bathrooms are for. This will be abused to all hell and a line needs to be drawn. What if some guy randomly decides "he's a woman" just to be a perv in the ladies room? Can we prove that, or would we be called bigots for "questioning his life decisions"?*


----------



## Lockard The GOAT (May 30, 2007)

*Re: Should trans-teen be able to use girl's lockerroom?*

No, he shouldn't. For obvious reasons. 

Regardless of what you wish you were or want to be, you're a guy, therefore you should have to use the guy's bathroom or, at best, the unisex bathrooms. You don't deserve to be treated special just because you're a cross-dressing freak.


----------



## Londrick (Feb 2, 2013)

*Re: Should trans-teen be able to use girl's lockerroom?*

I like how the guy with sign didn't add a ' at the end of Girls but did include in rights. "Girls Right's Matter" :ti


----------



## samizayn (Apr 25, 2011)

*Re: Should trans-teen be able to use girl's lockerroom?*



Riddle101 said:


> Tough topic, but I would put it down to the student body of the high school. The students should be allowed to vote on whether or not the trans gender student be allowed to use the girl's bathroom/lockeroom or not. If anyone should have a say in this, it should be them.


That's what I thought too, but it seems to be a 50-50 split. So I guess the only real option is obviously to have them form factions. Yes vs no, throw in a few weapons and may the last team standing win :draper2


----------



## ManiacMichaelMyers (Oct 23, 2009)

*Re: Should trans-teen be able to use girl's lockerroom?*



CornNthemorN said:


> People need to realize what this is ALL about. Why it's so cool to be gay, legalizing of weed, racial tension being magnified, Caitlin Jenner being idolized as some sort of hero.....THERE' JUST TOO MANY PEOPLE!


I blame Miley Cyrus. (just kidding...sorta. :lol)


----------



## ManiacMichaelMyers (Oct 23, 2009)

*Re: Should trans-teen be able to use girl's lockerroom?*



CornNthemorN said:


> People need to realize what this is ALL about. Why it's so cool to be gay, legalizing of weed, racial tension being magnified, Caitlin Jenner being idolized as some sort of hero.....THERE' JUST TOO MANY PEOPLE!


I blame Miley Cyrus. (just kidding...sorta. :lol)


----------



## JMGray491 (Aug 31, 2015)

*Re: Should trans-teen be able to use girl's lockerroom?*

What God made you is what room you should go to. Not what a Doctor or someone made you.


----------



## gabrielcev (Aug 23, 2014)

*Re: Should trans-teen be able to use girl's lockerroom?*

Yes if it keeps them out of the mens bathroom.


----------



## Sting nWo (Sep 4, 2015)

*Re: Should trans-teen be able to use girl's lockerroom?*



CamillePunk said:


> They are, it's in the second line of the OP. S*he's complaining that *s*he doesn't want to use the unisex staff bathroom, *s*he wants to use the same bathroom as the non-trans girls*.
> 
> I'm not sure why the thread title says locker room. The article is about bathrooms.


It wouldn't surprise me if that was the sole reason for having his sex change.


----------



## TripleG (Dec 8, 2004)

*Re: Should trans-teen be able to use girl's lockerroom?*

Have there been any cases of women identifying as men wanting to use men's bathrooms? I feel like every time I read one of these stories, it is a pre-op wanting to use the girls bathrooms.


----------



## Dr. Middy (Jan 21, 2015)

*Re: Should trans-teen be able to use girl's lockerroom?*

To answer the question, said person is not a special snowflake for being transgender, so shut the fuck up and change in the unisex bathroom. If you want to change with the women, cut and tuck your dick into a vagina. 

Transgender doesn't mean you have any special privileges.


----------



## TheResurrection (Dec 21, 2011)

*Re: Should trans-teen be able to use girl's lockerroom?*



JMGray491 said:


> What God made you is what room you should go to. Not what a Doctor or someone made you.


Did God give her these weird desires?


----------



## Batko10 (Sep 10, 2013)

*Re: Should trans-teen be able to use girl's lockerroom?*

The HE/SHE should be spending alot of time visiting the high school psychologist and could just use the bathroom in the shrink's office.

- Mike


----------



## MrMister (Mar 11, 2005)

*Re: Should trans-teen be able to use girl's lockerroom?*

I don't understand this issue at all. So I can't even begin to give a proper answer.


----------



## glenwo2 (May 9, 2011)

*Re: Should trans-teen be able to use girl's lockerroom?*



cenation34 said:


> Lila Perry said she wants to be treated like other female students and told school administrators that *she wasn’t content in continuing to use a unisex faculty bathroom this year*, the St. Louis Post-Dispatch reported.



Okay so let me get this straight....

This person's school bent over backwards to provide a PERSONAL Restroom for this person at school, and this person decides that going into the Girls Restroom/Lockerroom is more preferable? 

(notice how I use "this person" because I refuse to acknowledge that it's a SHE or HE)



> “I wasn’t hurting anyone. I didn’t want to be in something gender-neutral,” she said, referring to the faculty bathroom. “I am a girl. I am not going to be pushed away to another bathroom.”


No, you are NOT a girl, buddy. You are not a boy either. You are something in-between. *THAT* is why you were provided a Gender-Neutral restroom(or rather, your own personal restroom).

Get a grip and realize you've got your own personal restroom basically.


----------



## Heath V (Apr 9, 2014)

*Re: Should trans-teen be able to use girl's lockerroom?*



TheResurrection said:


> Did God give her these weird desires?


I'm sorry, her??


----------



## Loudon Wainwright (Jul 23, 2014)

*Re: Should trans-teen be able to use girl's lockerroom?*

This whole transgender acceptance movement is just promoting unhealthy behaviors. This guy is clearly in need of psychiatric intervention. If a man decides that he identifies as a squirrel and begins climbing trees and hoarding acorns, should he be accepted by society as a squirrel in a man's body? No. No he shouldn't, because he's a fucking man and not a squirrel. It's no different if a man think he's a woman or a woman thinks she's a man.


----------



## FITZ (May 8, 2007)

*Re: Should trans-teen be able to use girl's lockerroom?*

Has there ever been a reported instance of a person claiming to be transgender to commit a sex crime? I've probably seen about 15 posts in this thread saying this is going to happen and I don't know if there are any reported instances of it. 



TripleG said:


> Have there been any cases of women identifying as men wanting to use men's bathrooms? I feel like every time I read one of these stories, it is a pre-op wanting to use the girls bathrooms.


I don't think most guys care and I don't think most parents would care if a girl was in the bathroom with their son.


----------



## Arya Dark (Sep 8, 2006)

*Re: Should trans-teen be able to use girl's lockerroom?*

*Yeah I reckon she should. The person in question does have the female parts right? If so then yeah I think she should.

It's not like everything is out in the open in bathrooms. You still aren't going to see anything. It's just a bathroom. It's not like we take showers with each other every time we have to take a piss*


----------



## Gingerbread Man (Jan 29, 2015)

*Re: Should trans-teen be able to use girl's lockerroom?*

So much transphobia in this thread


----------



## TheResurrection (Dec 21, 2011)

*Re: Should trans-teen be able to use girl's lockerroom?*

Interesting point I saw made by those vile social justice warriors at TYT - if you're a parent do you want this individual in the locker-room with your sons getting changed and more than you want them in the locker room with your daughters? There should be no question of this person using anything other than private changing rooms and toilets.


----------



## Simply Flawless (Mar 28, 2011)

*Re: Should trans-teen be able to use girl's lockerroom?*

Girls know what a penis looks like i don't see an issue with the whole bathroom issue. Its not like dudes are in their walking around naked wanking or doing anything that bad


----------



## CamillePunk (Feb 10, 2011)

*Re: Should trans-teen be able to use girl's lockerroom?*



AryaDark said:


> *It's not like everything is out in the open in bathrooms. You still aren't going to see anything. It's just a bathroom. It's not like we take showers with each other every time we have to take a piss*


But if we did, would there still be war?


----------



## FITZ (May 8, 2007)

*Re: Should trans-teen be able to use girl's lockerroom?*



Gingerbread Man said:


> So much transphobia in this thread


I don't think it's a phobia. It's more of a lack of acceptance. And I see where they're coming from. I firmly believe that if someone wants to dress or act a certain way they have every right to do so and I support people do what makes them happy.

That being said I also understand that if you believe male and man mean the same thing you shouldn't have to treat someone you believe is a man as a woman.


----------



## Batko10 (Sep 10, 2013)

*Re: Should trans-teen be able to use girl's lockerroom?*



Loudon Wainwright said:


> This whole transgender acceptance movement is just promoting unhealthy behaviors. *This guy is clearly in need of psychiatric intervention*. If a man decides that he identifies as a squirrel and begins climbing trees and hoarding acorns, should he be accepted by society as a squirrel in a man's body? No. No he shouldn't, because he's a fucking man and not a squirrel. It's no different if a man think he's a woman or a woman thinks she's a man.


I identify with the super rich and believe I am a billionaire trapped in a poor man's body. Unfortunately, my bank doesn't see it that way when they check my account balance! :|

Seriously, you are correct. These people are mentally ill and in desperate need of a psychiatrist, *NOT* a surgeon. Of course, the politically correct crowd is going to chime in and say that I am "trans-phobic?!?" or something of that sort.

They can spout all the psycho-babble they want and call me all the names in their politically correct dictionary. But, in my opinon, any male that wants to mutilate himself by having his penis and testicles surgically removed is one sick bastard and needs psychiatric therapy. 

- Mike


----------



## Batko10 (Sep 10, 2013)

*Re: Should trans-teen be able to use girl's lockerroom?*

Accidental duplicate post.


----------



## ThirtyYearFan (Apr 26, 2012)

*Re: Should trans-teen be able to use girl's lockerroom?*

In a saner era of time this would never have been an issue. If a person has male DNA, then they need to use the mens locker room. If they have female DNA, then they need to use the womens locker room. Simple as that.


----------



## Gingerbread Man (Jan 29, 2015)

*Re: Should trans-teen be able to use girl's lockerroom?*



Batko10 said:


> I identify with the super rich and believe I am a billionaire trapped in a poor man's body. Unfortunately, my bank doesn't see it that way when they check my account balance! :|
> 
> Seriously, you are correct. These people are mentally ill and in desperate need of a psychiatrist, *NOT* a surgeon. Of course, the politically correct crowd is going to chime in and say that I am "trans-phobic?!?" or something of that sort.
> 
> ...


 Psychiatrists are actually the ones you need to go to get the permission for hormones and stuff like that. A lot believe that sexual transition would be best for the mental health of the patient. Get educated.


----------



## From Death Valley (Jan 27, 2015)

*Re: Should trans-teen be able to use girl's lockerroom?*

You have a penis then you belong in the male rest room.

Or he can go full Eric Cartman and have them build a restroom solely for transgender.

Like that episode of South Park.


----------



## DarkerDays (Sep 6, 2012)

*Re: Should trans-teen be able to use girl's lockerroom?*

He's still a male, whether is warped mind wants to believe it or not.


----------



## lolomanolo (Nov 27, 2006)

*Re: Should trans-teen be able to use girl's lockerroom?*


----------



## glenwo2 (May 9, 2011)

*Re: Should trans-teen be able to use girl's lockerroom?*



AryaDark said:


> *Yeah I reckon she should. The person in question does have the female parts right? If so then yeah I think she should.
> 
> It's not like everything is out in the open in bathrooms. You still aren't going to see anything. It's just a bathroom. It's not like we take showers with each other every time we have to take a piss*


Well this person doesn't have female parts. In fact, this person still has a penis.


----------



## StillReal2MeDammit (Aug 26, 2014)

*Re: Should trans-teen be able to use girl's lockerroom?*

This is more of a case to case basis scenario.


----------



## Batko10 (Sep 10, 2013)

*Re: Should trans-teen be able to use girl's lockerroom?*



Gingerbread Man said:


> Psychiatrists are actually the ones you need to go to get the permission for hormones and stuff like that. A lot believe that sexual transition would be best for the mental health of the patient. *Get educated*.


And, you should *get real*. Sexual mutilation entailing the surgical removal of the male genitals is a big business and money maker from the psychiatrist's couch to the surgeon's operating room and every where in-between. In a sane society this operation would not be allowed. Unfortunately, in this case the big $$$ do the talking. 

Be that as it may, a person has a right under our laws to mutilate themselves in this fashion. And, people have the right to consider them mentally ill without being called all sorts of names by the liberal, politically correct crowd that believes in "diversity" of opinion except when it concerns their agenda.

- Mike


----------



## CamillePunk (Feb 10, 2011)

*Re: Should trans-teen be able to use girl's lockerroom?*



Batko10 said:


> And, *people have the right to consider them mentally ill without being called all sorts of names *by the liberal, politically correct crowd that believes in "diversity" only when it concerns their agenda.
> 
> - Mike


Where does the right to not have people call you names come from?


----------



## Arya Dark (Sep 8, 2006)

*Re: Should trans-teen be able to use girl's lockerroom?*



glenwo2 said:


> Well this person doesn't have female parts. In fact, this person still has a penis.


*That makes it a little different but I still wouldn't mind it. Again what are you going to see in the bathroom? Unisex bathrooms have never bothered me.

I think the opposite, however, would be more of a problem when you have guys dangling their peckers out to piss at urinals. Even though at concerts it's not unusual to see females going into the male bathrooms to avoid the long lines. *


----------



## FITZ (May 8, 2007)

*Re: Should trans-teen be able to use girl's lockerroom?*



CamillePunk said:


> Where does the right to not have people call you names come from?


Do you even Constitution? It's in there somewhere! You have to accept I'm right because I got an A in Constitutional Law.


----------



## CamillePunk (Feb 10, 2011)

*Re: Should trans-teen be able to use girl's lockerroom?*

But Obama finished law school and taught Constitutional Law and I'm not convinced he's ever glanced at the document...

Though I do defer to FITZ in all matters regarding law and mathematics, it is known.


----------



## Simply Flawless (Mar 28, 2011)

*Re: Should trans-teen be able to use girl's lockerroom?*

Its a bloody toilet its not like your gonna be seeing naked people sticking buttplugs up their arse. I think if the person wants to use the damn toilet let em use which one they want. And it wasn't a locker room it was a toilet so here's a big difference


----------



## Heath V (Apr 9, 2014)

*Re: Should trans-teen be able to use girl's lockerroom?*



Simply Flawless said:


> Its a bloody toilet its not like your gonna be seeing naked people sticking buttplugs up their arse. I think if the person wants to use the damn toilet let em use which one they want. And it wasn't a locker room it was a toilet so here's a big difference


So with your logic I can use the women's restroom at work tomorrow? Something tells me that wouldn't go over too well.


----------



## Simply Flawless (Mar 28, 2011)

*Re: Should trans-teen be able to use girl's lockerroom?*



Heath V said:


> So with your logic I can use the women's restroom at work tomorrow? Something tells me that wouldn't go over too well.


Long as you don't mind the chandelier's and disco balls


----------



## CamillePunk (Feb 10, 2011)

*Re: Should trans-teen be able to use girl's lockerroom?*

@Batko10 please respond. I saw you lurking. Let's not have another incest thread where I ask you to back up your assertions and you suddenly go from having more posts than everyone to not posting again...


----------



## Cashmere (Apr 9, 2014)

*Re: Should trans-teen be able to use girl's lockerroom?*

No.

Should tomboys be able to use the boys lockeroom because they wanna be boys? First Donald Trump, now this?! We are all fucked as an civilization.


----------



## CamillePunk (Feb 10, 2011)

*Re: Should trans-teen be able to use girl's lockerroom?*



Ickey Shuffle said:


> No.
> 
> Should tomboys be able to use the boys lockeroom because they wanna be boys? First Donald Trump, now this?! We are all fucked as an civilization.


Tomboys want to be boys? I thought tomboys were just girls who enjoyed doing things society considers "masculine". I don't think this is a very good analogy.


----------



## Jonasolsson96 (Dec 31, 2014)

*Re: Should trans-teen be able to use girl's lockerroom?*

Its a tough situation and I see both sides to the argument. If she still has a penis its gonna be tough changing with the girls and I think a unisex/transgender lockerroom is the way to go.


----------



## Batko10 (Sep 10, 2013)

*Re: Should trans-teen be able to use girl's lockerroom?*



CamillePunk said:


> @Batko10 please respond. I saw you lurking. Let's not have another incest thread where I ask you to back up your assertions and you suddenly go from having more posts than everyone to not posting again...


I don't lurk. I didn't log off and was away from the computer for about an hour. 

In any case, your question is ludicrous and is a diversion from the main point. I'm not going to get into it. 

Call me what you like, these people are still mentally ill in my book.

- Mike


----------



## Klorel (Jun 15, 2013)

*Re: Should trans-teen be able to use girl's lockerroom?*

No. You have a dick, you go with the other dicks. I don't care what you identify as. 

You know what, I think I'm going to identify as a waffle. Someone get me a toaster and some syrup.


----------



## Cashmere (Apr 9, 2014)

*Re: Should trans-teen be able to use girl's lockerroom?*



CamillePunk said:


> Tomboys want to be boys? I thought tomboys were just girls who enjoyed doing things society considers "masculine". I don't think this is a very good analogy.


Sure it is. 

Tomboys = Girls dressed up as boys and act like boys. 
Transsexuals = Boys dressed up as girls and act like girls.

Not sure if you can get more clear cut than that.


----------



## Klorel (Jun 15, 2013)

*Re: Should trans-teen be able to use girl's lockerroom?*



Ickey Shuffle said:


> Sure it is.
> 
> Tomboys = Girls dressed up as boys and act like boys.
> Transsexuals = Boys dressed up as girls and act like girls.
> ...


They dress and act like them, but they don't identify their gender as male.

Transsexual's identify as the other gender, not just act like it.


----------



## CamillePunk (Feb 10, 2011)

*Re: Should trans-teen be able to use girl's lockerroom?*



Batko10 said:


> In any case, your question is ludicrous and is a diversion from the main point. I'm not going to get into it.


I'm not sure I understand how my question is any more a diversion than your bizarre assertion that you have a *right* not to be criticized.


----------



## CamillePunk (Feb 10, 2011)

*Re: Should trans-teen be able to use girl's lockerroom?*



Ickey Shuffle said:


> Sure it is.
> 
> Tomboys = Girls dressed up as boys and act like boys.
> Transsexuals = Boys dressed up as girls and act like girls.
> ...


Okay, so you understand trans even less than I do, yet have the hubris to speak on the matter with authority. Interesting. I believe this is called the "Dunning-Kruger effect".


----------



## Miss Sally (Jul 14, 2014)

*Re: Should trans-teen be able to use girl's lockerroom?*



Ickey Shuffle said:


> No.
> 
> Should tomboys be able to use the boys lockeroom because they wanna be boys? First Donald Trump, now this?! We are all fucked as an civilization.


Tomboys are just girls who look or act a bit boyish, most of them aren't even lesbians. I think you're mixing up butch/bull ***** with the shaved heads with the combat boots etc or something crazy like that! 

I can't believe this topic is still going on! Pretty simple, still looks like a boy, has a penis like a boy, use the unisex restroom! It's what they built it for! Now until you become what you feel you are, you have no special rights! When transitioned feel free to use the girl's restroom! Anyone says different, I'll bop them! But still have a wang, sorry nope!


----------



## Cashmere (Apr 9, 2014)

*Re: Should trans-teen be able to use girl's lockerroom?*

Lol why can't everyone just act normal. Is that too much to ask? Maybe some shock therapy will do the trick.


----------



## Batko10 (Sep 10, 2013)

*Re: Should trans-teen be able to use girl's lockerroom?*



CamillePunk said:


> I'm not sure I understand how my question is any more a diversion than your bizarre assertion that you have a *right* not to be criticized.


Actually, I wrote, "_And, people have the right to consider them mentally ill *without being called all sorts of names *by the liberal, politically correct crowd that believes in "diversity" of opinion except when it concerns their agenda."_

Criticizing and name calling are two different things. 

Let's get back on the topic. What is your opinion of males who want to mutilate themselves in this manner??? Do you consider this normal???

- Mike


----------



## CamillePunk (Feb 10, 2011)

*Re: Should trans-teen be able to use girl's lockerroom?*



Batko10 said:


> Let's get back on the topic. What is your opinion of males who want to mutilate themselves in this manner??? Do you consider this normal???
> 
> - Mike


I don't know what "normal" is, or that it is something one ought to aspire to be for its own sake. 

Is circumcising an infant "normal"? Well, in many cultures, yes. But to do so is a violation of that infant's self-ownership. Clearly people should be more outraged by that than an adult voluntarily choosing to mutilate themselves.

"Normal" is defined by culture, so I'm not sure how it's a valid reason to be for or against something. Slavery was normal once, but now most folks agree it's immoral. My point is only that normalcy is subjective and fluid. 

Personally, I don't care if a person decides to undergo a sex change. I've not researched it a great deal (nor have any of the people criticizing trans folks ITT, or else they'd be backing up their assertions with some scientific data), so I don't know if it's legitimate to have been born "the wrong sex" or not. Frankly, I don't care. It has nothing to do with me. I'm not going to be weirded out by some guy who used to have a vagina. I just don't get hung up on things like that; I care about people's character, not what's in their pants.


----------



## Batko10 (Sep 10, 2013)

*Re: Should trans-teen be able to use girl's lockerroom?*



CamillePunk said:


> I don't know what "normal" is, or that it is something one ought to aspire to be for its own sake.
> 
> Is circumcising an infant "normal"? Well, in many cultures, yes. But to do so is a violation of that infant's self-ownership. Clearly people should be more outraged by that than an adult voluntarily choosing to mutilate themselves.
> 
> ...


I must admit that you are one of the best on this list when it comes to dancing around a question. Never mind. I'll take that as a "yes" to my question.

- Mike


----------



## Fluffy|McDoodle|Kitten (Sep 2, 2014)

Trans-gender individuals should only be able to use the restroom/bathroom/locker room of the gender they identify with only after going through successful gender reassigment surgery. In my opinion, this is the only fair way to protect the rights of the trans-gendered individual and those who they may directly or indirectly affect.

If they haven't gone through successful gender reassignment surgery then I think the a neutral or unisex restroom/bathroom/locker room is the best option. For one, is gives the trans-gender individual a safe haven for their use without fear of being ridiculed or assaulted by males and for the females they don't have to feel uncomfortable knowing they are sharing an area with someone who is biologically male.

I think a person earlier in this thread stated more understanding and encouragement is needed when dealing with a transgender individual and I agree 100%, however as long as we got people referring to trans-gender individuals as "freaks", "he-shes", "things" and other derrogatory adjectives used through out this thread, that'll never happen...at least in my lifetime.


----------



## Oxidamus (Jan 30, 2012)

Nah who cares. Better than making a big fucking deal out of it. I'm sure it's better on everyone other than annoying parents anyway.

Batko has an interesting point about mental illness though. If you think you're an aeroplane, you're crazy, coz you're not. Just like you are a boy but not a girl, you know?
I don't really think it's a mental illness but I really do think the trans- stuff these days is heavily onset by confusion revolving gender roles and typical gender related things. eg, liking barbies as a young boy and growing up saying "ever since I was a child I liked girly things" isn't CLOSE to enough of a legitimate reason to be taken seriously.


----------



## GothicBohemian (May 26, 2012)

I don't see what difference it makes which bathroom anyone uses. 

I lived in a co-ed residence where male/female were all together and not separated by floor and our bathrooms - which had showers in them - were used by everyone. If a bunch of first-and-second year university students can easily handle shared bathrooms than I'm sure high school students can live with a trans teen using whichever bathroom they prefer. 

And fyi, if the issue is changing rooms and not bathrooms, as a female I need to point out that girls undress in front of thier friends all the time when sharing outfits and getting changed to go out. Since a girl quoted in the op article mentions this is her best friend who sleeps over frequently I very much doubt we're talking about a teen unaccustomed to casually undressing alongside at least one girl.

If it were up to me, public bathrooms would be unisex by default with the separate ones available for those who have special reasons to want segregated privacy. It would solve so many long line up problems. 


One more thing: @Batko10, I hope you know that, even though we're usually on the opposite side of the liberal-conservative spectrum, I like and respect you as a poster but I have to side 100% with @CamillePunk on this. I don't think about trans people much because I know only one relatively well and her problems are not mine, so my approach is very much of the "live and let live" variety. I can say without any hesitation that it wouldn't bother me a bit to share a changing room with a trans individual. For all I know, I may have done it lots of times. Most of them are very careful to fit in, if you know what I mean by that.


----------



## FriedTofu (Sep 29, 2014)

GothicBohemian said:


> If it were up to me, public bathrooms would be unisex by default with the separate ones available for those who have special reasons to want segregated privacy. It would solve so many long line up problems.


Perverts everywhere would rejoice if it were up to you.


----------



## GothicBohemian (May 26, 2012)

Maybe it's just me, but I don't see perverts hiding around every corner. We hear about incidents where a grown man is taking pics up skirts from beneath open staircases because it's unusual and most people react negatively. 

I'd also like to point out that gay/lesbian perverts exist as well, so separating bathrooms by gender isn't a perfect solution to avoiding being peeked at with your pants down.


EDITED TO ADD:

Another way in which my worldview differs, I assume, from yours is that I don't care if someone sees me naked. I feel perfectly comfortable nude and don't even mind being undressed in public. Hell, I've nude subject modelled for studio art classes while my university roommate's boyfriend was one of the students drawing me! 

What it comes down to is that if some guy gets a boner from seeing my tits hanging free it doesn't matter to me. Hey, I made his day a little better - that's a good thing, right? 
(and no, this does not mean I'll be mass-mailing nude pics) 

_note that the above edit is completely irrelevant to the discussion of trans teen in female bathrooms._


----------



## FITZ (May 8, 2007)

Arguing whether or not it's a mental illness seems like a real waste of time. The definitions they use for mental illnesses do support the idea that it could be a mental illness. They also support the idea that just about anything that causes you enough stress in life could also be considered a mental illness. 



The more I think about this issue the more I get caught up in the idea of why are there separate facilities for men and women. I can try to phrase it however I want to but I mostly end up with some variation of "because that's how we want things to be" when I try to articulate why there are men's and women's rooms. I wouldn't be happy if all restrooms and locker rooms became unisex but the main reason is I don't want women near me when I go to the bathroom and I don't want to be near them when they go to the bathroom. In a society where everyone is supposed to be equal that doesn't seem like a good argument. 

What I'm trying to say is that since we don't exactly have the most rational reasons for separate places aside from "It's gross!" and I guess the threat of perverts and I don't see how we can really have sensible arguments about why the person in question should or shouldn't be allowed to use the the men's or women's locker room.


----------



## GothicBohemian (May 26, 2012)

Forget sensible arguments. You know, this whole discussion screams first world problems. Gender identity crisis, who should be in which bathroom... considering how many people living in squalor, historically and, sadly, even today, have no choice but to shower in open stalls, wait hours for a porta-potty or squat down where they are no matter who happens to be around, that we can get all hung up over this makes me laugh. 

We're so damn lucky that these are the problems we worry about. That, or we're damn unfortunate to be so easily media manipulated away from the real issues in our lives.


----------



## glenwo2 (May 9, 2011)

*Re: Should trans-teen be able to use girl's lockerroom?*



AryaDark said:


> *That makes it a little different but I still wouldn't mind it. Again what are you going to see in the bathroom? Unisex bathrooms have never bothered me.
> 
> I think the opposite, however, would be more of a problem when you have guys dangling their peckers out to piss at urinals. Even though at concerts it's not unusual to see females going into the male bathrooms to avoid the long lines. *


But this isn't a case of Unisex bathrooms, Arya. 

This is a case of a Transgendered person actually WANTING to go into legit Girl restrooms INSTEAD of the Unisex(or "Gender Neutral" as they call it) Bathroom she's currently going in.

This person is under the deluded belief that IT'S a female when in fact, it isn't. I'm sorry but unless this person goes all the way in having a COMPLETE sex-change, this person should continue to go to the restroom it's currently using, Period.


----------



## General Duessel (Aug 30, 2015)

Unisex lockerrooms would be by far the easiest solution in this case and a huge progress; however, since that most likely isn't going to happen, that dude should just learn to live with the fact that as long as lockerrooms are segregated by sex, he'll have to change with the other guys.

Because, after all, he's a guy and not a girl, no matter what he wants to identify as. Biologically, he's male, since he evidently got an Y-chromosome in his genetic framework, and that's one of those facts of life you just cannot change. Even if he went so far as to undergo sex reassignment surgery, he still wouldn't be a girl - he'd be just a guy with some mutilated genitals.

And, yes, I'm totally aware of the fact that gender is ultimately a social construct - but this doesn't really work in favor of his agenda, either, because this construct exists for a reason, and is a direct product of our biological differences that are determined by our sex. That is why almost all societies around the world independently adhered to a male/female dichotomy - while there are some exceptions to this rule, societies which acknowleged a "third gender" usually used this concept exactly because necessary social functions within those societes were strictly defined by male and female gender roles, and assigning a third gender provided them with some flexibility. In these cases, the third gender was a byproduct of a rigid system based on the unequality between the two sexually defined "main" genders - male and female.

Gender, therefore, is a concept that is intrinsically linked to our biological sex. And it's actually a very useful one, since our biological differences necessarily lead to some marked differences in our biographies - just think about reproduction. Pregnancy is a pretty big deal - one that male humans will never be able to experience. (Good for them, I guess.) It's therefore only rational to categorize people according to their sex, and this categorization in itself is the beginning of the construction of gender, since acknowledging these biological difference leads to different social responses.

And there's nothing wrong with it - it's unequal, but to an extent, this unequality is necessary and socially healthy. It only becomes problematic when this gender distinction becomes fraught with hypocritical moralism and unequalities that serve no purpose - unreasonably disadvantaging members of a certain gender (usually the female) in their political, economical, and social rights for the benefit of the other; in other words, sexism. Clearly, that's something we as a societey need to oppose.

By the same token, gender can be problematic when the social expecations that come with it unnecessarily restrict the freedom of the individual. Nobody ever fits the abstract concept of feminity and masculinity - we all posess certain characteristics that do not "fit the bill" and may traditionally be associated with the opposite gender. I very much support any effort to stop stigmatizing ("slut-shaming", forcing men into agressive, emotinally stunted roles etc.) these traits, which are not by themselves feminine or masculine, but are arbitrarily associated with them due to unreflected tradition.

Gender in itself is naturally an unequal concept, but as far it is rooted in natural differences and necessary distinctions, it is a rational one. Still, it has become surrounded with oppressive mythologies, prejudices and practices, and these, we need to deconstruct.

But here's the thing - transgenderism is not about that. First of all, it presumes that a guy (in this case) can assume the identity of a girl when he has neither the social nor the biological experiences that comes with that role; he may think so, but having a male body (and a male socialization that inevitably comes with that) he cannot experience the world in the same way that a girl does; secondly, the fact that he renounces his gender shows that his view of gender in itself is monolithic and leaves no room for negotiation; instead of reducing the restrictions of gendered behavior by accepting "non-masculine" traits, he feels the need to assume a fake "female" identity that allows him to behave in a tradionally "feminine" way. Transgenderism reinforces gender restrictions; it is just the flipside of a sexist world-view. 

Of course, one could cater to that; hypocritically referring to him as a "she" as if we didn't perceive the difference between his "identity" and actually being a girl, letting him join the girl's lockerroom. Or maybe one could keep a sense of reality, help him work on his issues and to get comfortable with himself as a boy (he's just a teenager, for god's sake - many of us have experienced discomfort with our gender during puberty), and at the same time reduce those arbitrary behavioral restrictions that can make one feel as if one didn't "fit" one's gender, and move on as a society.

/rant over

(I really don't know why I chose to write such a long-winded post about this subject on a wrestling forum, of all places.  I just tend to think a lot about these issues, and wanted to get it off my chest. Anyway, please keep in mind that this is only my opinion, and you're free to disagree.)


----------



## Desecrated (Feb 4, 2009)

Why is a 17 y/o legally allowed to change gender, when people that age are not allowed to have sex in some American states, buy alchohol or own a driving licence?


----------



## FITZ (May 8, 2007)

Desecrated said:


> Why is a 17 y/o legally allowed to change gender, when people that age are not allowed to have sex in some American states, buy alchohol or own a driving licence?


It's just the way the laws are written. You aren't going to be able to find logic when it comes to putting age requirements on things there is always some amount of stupidity that is going to entail. 

I would imagine that argument would be that if you get a sex change you already know what you gender you are and that gender isn't your choice so you should be allowed to change it early. I'm certainly not saying that I buy that argument but I imagine that's the argument behind it while all of those other things you talked about are decisions that people make that the government prevents people from making until they reach a certain age.


----------



## dictainabox (Oct 31, 2014)

Desecrated said:


> Why is a 17 y/o legally allowed to change gender, when people that age are not allowed to have sex in some American states, buy alcohol or own a driving licence?


Are we talking about sex change or gender change?


----------



## glenwo2 (May 9, 2011)

dictainabox said:


> Are we talking about sex change or gender change?


Isn't that the same thing? :shrug


----------



## FriedTofu (Sep 29, 2014)

GothicBohemian said:


> Forget sensible arguments. You know, this whole discussion screams first world problems. Gender identity crisis, who should be in which bathroom... considering how many people living in squalor, historically and, sadly, even today, have no choice but to shower in open stalls, wait hours for a porta-potty or squat down where they are no matter who happens to be around, that we can get all hung up over this makes me laugh.
> 
> We're so damn lucky that these are the problems we worry about. That, or we're damn unfortunate to be so easily media manipulated away from the real issues in our lives.


Your reaction seem to scream first world entitlements. Consider how many people living in squalor have more pressing issue than worrying about which type of restroom/changing room they can use, that you get all high and mighty over anyone raising valid concerns about this issue makes me laugh.

I agree we are lucky to worry about these problems, but wonder who is making a mountain over a molehill in the first place here. The transgender teen refusing to use a unisex toilet to create a scene.


----------



## Captain Edd (Dec 14, 2011)

As soon as this is allowed everywhere you can imagine the amount of guys pretending to be transexual because they want to watch the girls. I sure as hell would do that


----------



## DaRealNugget (Nov 26, 2014)

the real question is, which bathroom should a hermaphrodite be using?

i knew one from school. i never asked her this question, but i wish i did. tbh, i didnt have any proof she was one, besides a buddy of mine sat on her lap one time and thought he felt a sausage link in her pants. we called her hermy.


----------



## dictainabox (Oct 31, 2014)

glenwo2 said:


> Isn't that the same thing? :shrug


No. Gender is about characteristics associated with sex. Sex is about what's between your legs.


----------



## Dell (Feb 24, 2014)

This is a tough question, I can see the arguments from both sides. However, if I was in this situation I wouldn't be protesting about it and making a huge song and dance, I would just get changed in a private place, disabled toilet, unisex cubical etc. It's not a big deal, how often would you be in public changing rooms, once a week? The only place I can think you'd get changed out in the open is a gym changing room, and that is also avoidable.

I do feel sorry for trans girls though as they have a lot of issues like this to face and they have a lot of people judging them and bullying them.


----------



## Simply Flawless (Mar 28, 2011)

glenwo2 said:


> Isn't that the same thing? :shrug


Yes because the term "sex change" was somehow offensive so it was changed to "gender reassignment" even though its the same thing


----------



## whelp (Jun 8, 2015)

Captain Edd said:


> As soon as this is allowed everywhere you can imagine the amount of guys pretending to be transexual because they want to watch the girls. I sure as hell would do that


Im with you captain!

I would have stood in a fucking dress to see all that when I was 16 or whatever age.

id probably do it now!


----------



## dictainabox (Oct 31, 2014)

Simply Flawless said:


> Yes because the term "sex change" was somehow offensive so it was changed to "gender reassignment" even though its the same thing


That's just wrong. Gender and sex aren't the same thing. I mean, a ton of the tumblr "I'm a fucking stargender and voidgender" is utter attention whoring horseshit, but let's not go full retard the other way and pretend that sex and gender are interchangeable terms, because they aren't.


----------



## Loudon Wainwright (Jul 23, 2014)

dictainabox said:


> That's just wrong. Gender and sex aren't the same thing. I mean, a ton of the tumblr "I'm a fucking stargender and voidgender" is utter attention whoring horseshit, but let's not go full retard the other way and pretend that sex and gender are interchangeable terms, because they aren't.


Why is "stargender" attention whoring but "transgender" isn't? If somebody can claim to be a woman when they clearly have male anatomy, why can't they claim to be a star? If transgender people are to be taken seriously, why are otherkin and the like treated as jokes?


----------



## Redd Foxx (Sep 29, 2013)

Trans should be home schooled, who the fuck idea was it to put him in School?


----------



## Simply Flawless (Mar 28, 2011)

dictainabox said:


> That's just wrong. Gender and sex aren't the same thing. I mean, a ton of the tumblr "I'm a fucking stargender and voidgender" is utter attention whoring horseshit, but let's not go full retard the other way and pretend that sex and gender are interchangeable terms, because they aren't.


Sex and gender are the same thing its just 2 different words. On most medical forms they use the word sex which means what gender you are...there is no difference....


----------



## 'Road Dogg' Jesse James (Aug 13, 2014)

That's just a dude in a wig. 

I think as a society we need to agree on a level of passing to qualify as trans. If you actually pass as a girl/woman, only then are you trans. Otherwise you're just a dude in a wig.

Bailey Jay is trans. Bruce Jenner is just a dude in a wig.


----------



## FITZ (May 8, 2007)

whelp said:


> Im with you captain!
> 
> I would have stood in a fucking dress to see all that when I was 16 or whatever age.
> 
> id probably do it now!


Can you document any proof of this every happening? As in someone claiming to be a transgender person did so soley for the purpose of being a pervert.


----------



## RiC David (Jun 20, 2006)

'Road Dogg' Jesse James said:


> That's just a dude in a wig.
> 
> I think as a society we need to agree on a level of passing to qualify as trans. If you actually pass as a girl/woman, only then are you trans. Otherwise you're just a dude in a wig.
> 
> Bailey Jay is trans. Bruce Jenner is just a dude in a wig.


So it's about how attractive you are to men? If you're feminine enough to look like a natural girl/woman then you get the right to live as a girl/woman but if you look too masculine then even though you have the exact same psychological condition (though I don't like that word), you have to live as a boy/man.

This is stupid as hell but honestly reading this thread makes me lose respect for all but a handful of people on this forum. I know society has a long way to go before understanding psychological conditions but most of you are just ignorant as fuck and stupid as hell to boot - straight teenager boys are going to tell their friends and family that they're really a girl in a boy's body and live their whole teenage life as a girl so that they can sneak peaks at the girls getting changed and/or assault them....like that's not possible outside of their lockerrooms?

I can't believe how stupid you are. Honestly it's an embarrassment to share this forum with people that dumb. "Oh but in South Park" - it's a fucking cartoon not a documentary. You're really that damn idiotic as to think that straight boys would alienate themselves from all their friends--or all of them as bigoted and ignorant as you people (unless you'd suddenly not be so shitty if it was your friend)--and be bullied mercilessly by people again like yourself and the pricks in this thread?

That must be why more transgender teenagers kill themselves than any other demographic - because it's such a fun experience being in high school looking male and feeling female while ignorant cunts treat you like shit.

I was so wrong about this forum, I thought the majority or at least the articulate portion were at least understanding when it comes to unusual aspects of the human condition but nope - you're every bit the ugly stereotype.


----------



## Count Vertigo (Jun 30, 2015)

RiC David said:


> So it's about how attractive you are to men? If you're feminine enough to look like a natural girl/woman then you get the right to live as a girl/woman but if you look too masculine then even though you have the exact same psychological condition (though I don't like that word), you have to live as a boy/man.
> 
> This is stupid as hell but honestly reading this thread makes me lose respect for all but a handful of people on this forum. I know society has a long way to go before understanding psychological conditions but most of you are just ignorant as fuck and stupid as hell to boot - straight teenager boys are going to tell their friends and family that they're really a girl in a boy's body and live their whole teenage life as a girl so that they can sneak peaks at the girls getting changed and/or assault them....like that's not possible outside of their lockerrooms?
> 
> ...


You have a dick ---> you change with the ones that have dicks
You have a pussy ---> you change with the ones that have pussies

No need to write a 5 paragraph rant on shit like this.


----------



## RiC David (Jun 20, 2006)

Count Vertigo said:


> You have a dick ---> you change with the ones that have dicks
> You have a pussy ---> you change with the ones that have pussies
> 
> No need to write a 5 paragraph rant on shit like this.


Do you honestly not think that a pre-op transgender kid who's got this giant spotlight on them and is finally allowed to use the locker room of the gender they're living as is going to be showing their cock?

Here's a simple solution to that then. She can use the girls' locker room, just ask her to cover up out of respect - *which she obviously would do anyway*.

In the nonexistent event that she was getting changed and standing there bearing all, would it be so difficult to just not look if you're that pathetically bothered by seeing someone's genitalia?


It takes a five paragraph rant because you over simplify. Being transgender isn't about whether you still have a penis/vagina. You can't relate to it, I can't relate to it neither can I say that I *understand* what it must be like but I know full well that it genuinely exists because it's self evident. Clearly this psychological condition exists, what good does it do for small minded people to say "Let's just treat them like it doesn't exist because we find it weird"?

In 10/20 years we'll be less ignorant on psychological conditions (_the fucking irony of some supporters here_) and we'll get over our pathetic "what if someone saw their genitals?!" fears and South Park inspired idiotic conspiracies and we'll actually understand other human beings rather than treat them with suspicion and contempt.


----------



## QuasiModo (Sep 10, 2015)

stevefox1200 said:


> Plus only a fool gives up access to the urinal, it has all of the fun of pissing on the wall with none of the backlash



i think you mean backsplash. 



FITZ said:


> Has there ever been a reported instance of a person claiming to be transgender to commit a sex crime? I've probably seen about 15 posts in this thread saying this is going to happen and I don't know if there are any reported instances of it.


do you think our dishonest media would report an incident? 



Heath V said:


> So with your logic I can use the women's restroom at work tomorrow? Something tells me that wouldn't go over too well.


just wear a bad wig, and it would be copacetic. 



cenation34 said:


>


this dude has to be trolling everyone. :lel


----------



## Count Vertigo (Jun 30, 2015)

RiC David said:


> Do you honestly not think that a pre-op transgender kid who's got this giant spotlight on them and is finally allowed to use the locker room of the gender they're living as is going to be showing their cock?
> 
> Here's a simple solution to that then. She can use the girls' locker room, just ask her to cover up out of respect - *which she obviously would do anyway*.
> 
> ...


If it makes all the *actual girls* in that locker room uncomfortable (which HE sure as hell would), then it shouldn't be fucking allowed just because a guy with a wig thinks he's a girl and doesn't like seeing dicks.

Fuck, for every good thing there is about living in this day and age there's a fucked up thing like this.


----------



## Loose Reality (Sep 11, 2014)

Count Vertigo said:


> If it makes all the *actual girls* in that locker room uncomfortable (which HE sure as hell would), then it shouldn't be fucking allowed just because a guy with a wig thinks he's a girl and doesn't like seeing dicks.
> 
> Fuck, for every good thing there is about living in this day and age there's a fucked up thing like this.



This.

It's not about what he/she wants. The rest of the world doesn't need to accommodate anyone because they are uncomfortable, when doing so creates more of an issue.

I have recently been on the outskirts of a situation which parallels this. A certain man of similar persuasion decided that he was entitled to use the female lavatories in the club at which he worked, citing his female colleagues had no issue. He was, rightly, admonished by his supervisor, given those rooms were accessible to the public, including at the time, a room full of elderly ladies at their own paid function.

One girl has an issue with his presence, and he has no case. 

Which is how it should be.






Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App


----------



## whelp (Jun 8, 2015)

FITZ said:


> Can you document any proof of this every happening? As in someone claiming to be a transgender person did so soley for the purpose of being a pervert.


I never said i could. I said I would.


----------



## Kabraxal (Jun 14, 2004)

This person can live with the gender nuetral facility....... now, if this "woman" finally decided to actually become a full woman and remove the fucking male parts then this wouldn't be a god damned issue. But god fucking forbid people point this out and be labelled bigots for an idiotic stance that makes no sense.

Sorry, but if you won't physically change your body to match your "gender" then it is fucking clear you are just playing for attention and don't believe one fucking thing you say. If I truly believed I was a woman and had the capability, as we do, to become a woman... I wouldn't parade around with a damned dick and try to act better than those taking offense at my clear hypocritical bullshit. I'd be a fucking woman......... grow the fuck up people.


----------



## Reaper (Sep 4, 2013)

*Re: Should trans-teen be able to use girl's lockerroom?*



KO Bossy said:


> I have a good friend who is trans, yet even I'm of two minds of this. Probably because I can see both sides of the issue.
> 
> On the one hand, if this young man truly identifies as female, then that's something to be nurtured, not scorned. This may be an unpopular view to some, but its how I feel. People have the right to identify with how they want, and its nobody's business except theirs. And as a society, its our responsibility to help them and be accepting, not to label them an outcast.
> 
> ...


I agree with most of what you said, but America has always had a policy of forced integration and then dealing with the consequences of forcing that integration. 

Personally, I think that if large groups of Americans are left to their devices and integration of different groups isn't forced by those more willing to extend human rights to others, sporadic groups of Americans would still be hunting and burning witches, storing slaves in dog crates and using prayer to heal their children instead of taking them to doctors. Americans are notoriously slow when it comes to evolving from their ignorance and imo it's justifiable for the enlightened to subdue the ignorant. :draper2 

Of course there's going to be an odd "non-trans" individual that is lying for attention's sake ---- but with a 41% attempted suicide rate amongst trans teens in 2015, I personally think that that number alone should be considered a damning argument for those people who think that these kids are lying and therefore their needs have to be met. 

Suicide and death are a much, much higher cost to pay than ignoring and hurting the wittle fee fees of some ignorant idiot.



Kabraxal said:


> This person can live with the gender nuetral facility....... now, if this "woman" finally decided to actually become a full woman and remove the fucking male parts then this wouldn't be a god damned issue. But god fucking forbid people point this out and be labelled bigots for an idiotic stance that makes no sense.
> 
> Sorry, but if you won't physically change your body to match your "gender" then it is fucking clear you are just playing for attention and don't believe one fucking thing you say. If I truly believed I was a woman and had the capability, as we do, to become a woman... I wouldn't parade around with a damned dick and try to act better than those taking offense at my clear hypocritical bullshit. I'd be a fucking woman......... grow the fuck up people.


Ah yes .. the equal but separate argument ... That worked so well when it came to the treatment of blacks. 

Also, many trans-teens cannot get the operation for medical reasons while others live in families that cannot afford the treatment. But the vast majority live in families where parents are unwilling to accept the truth about their child and therefore the child can't even tell them they need treatment and consider suicide as the only viable solution. 

People are usually labeled bigoted because of a combination of intolerance and ignorance ... some of which is evident in your own post without you even realizing it.


----------



## Arya Dark (Sep 8, 2006)

*Re: Should trans-teen be able to use girl's lockerroom?*



glenwo2 said:


> But this isn't a case of Unisex bathrooms, Arya.
> 
> This is a case of a Transgendered person actually WANTING to go into legit Girl restrooms INSTEAD of the Unisex(or "Gender Neutral" as they call it) Bathroom she's currently going in.
> 
> This person is under the deluded belief that IT'S a female when in fact, it isn't. I'm sorry but unless this person goes all the way in having a COMPLETE sex-change, this person should continue to go to the restroom it's currently using, Period.


*Nah I get that. I'm just giving my personal perspective on the situation. Would I care if this guy who thinks he's a girl walked into a public bathroom I was in just so he could squat and take a piss? Absolutely not. Wouldn't bother me in the slightest. 

Do I think he has some "right" to do that? Nope. Do I think he should be allowed to do that. In general no. As I said, I wouldn't have a problem with it personally. But I know other people absolutely would so who am I to speak for them? I just know I wouldn't mind it personally. 

*


----------



## Kabraxal (Jun 14, 2004)

*Re: Should trans-teen be able to use girl's lockerroom?*



The Apostate said:


> I agree with most of what you said, but America has always had a policy of forced integration and then dealing with the consequences of forcing that integration.
> 
> Personally, I think that if large groups of Americans are left to their devices and integration of different groups isn't forced by those more willing to extend human rights to others, sporadic groups of Americans would still be hunting and burning witches, storing slaves in dog crates and using prayer to heal their children instead of taking them to doctors. Americans are notoriously slow when it comes to evolving from their ignorance and imo it's justifiable for the enlightened to subdue the ignorant. :draper2
> 
> ...


The simple fact... this person still has the biological parts of a male. That is what is deciding this issue. Not some bigotry against trans people, but common sense. This isn't a co-ed facility and it is a society that still places a lot of weight and power on nudity in general, let alone in the company of the opposite sex. 

The real issue is that others had to start flinging "bigot" around when this has always been a case of common sense. Instead of thinking rationally and realising "hey, I still have male parts and maybe that would be uncomfortable for these women" we have this person trying to force these women into a situation they shouldn't have to be forced into. There have been accomdations made to try and serve this woman (benefit of the doubt) to the best of their ability. But god forbid they had the foresight to realise the other women have rights in this situation that must be accounted for as well. 

No... instead everyone must cater to this person instead of this woman actually using common sense. If you aren't going to have the surgery, for whatever reason, then you will just have to deal with that until this society either trends to co-ed facilities or doesn't place such weight in nudity. The fact she refuses to do this is why people do not think this person is sincere in the cause.


----------



## Arya Dark (Sep 8, 2006)

*I agree Kabraxel. The term, "bigot" is thrown around way too easily. Ironically it's almost thrown around in a bigoted fashion.*


----------



## Kabraxal (Jun 14, 2004)

AryaDark said:


> *I agree Kabraxel. The term, "bigot" is thrown around way too easily. Ironically it's almost thrown around in a bigoted fashion.*


It's gotten to the point where the word has lost almost all its power and meaning...


----------



## Gingerbread Man (Jan 29, 2015)

*Re: Should trans-teen be able to use girl's lockerroom?*



Batko10 said:


> And, you should *get real*. Sexual mutilation entailing the surgical removal of the male genitals is a big business and money maker from the psychiatrist's couch to the surgeon's operating room and every where in-between. In a sane society this operation would not be allowed. Unfortunately, in this case the big $$$ do the talking.
> 
> Be that as it may, a person has a right under our laws to mutilate themselves in this fashion. And, people have the right to consider them mentally ill without being called all sorts of names by the liberal, politically correct crowd that believes in "diversity" of opinion except when it concerns their agenda.
> 
> - Mike


Are you also this vocal against male circumcision? Because that is also something doctors do just to add another thing to your hospital bill and it is also sexual mutilation. BUT to someone who cannot consent versus a person who is of age and CAN consent to these kind of surgeries.


----------



## TerraRising (Aug 5, 2015)

*Re: Should trans-teen be able to use girl's lockerroom?*

Real talk: Would anyone here pay money to have some docs hack off your dick? Because... that pretty much says you're fucked in the head. Only the mentally ill, drug addicts and cult fanatics would mutilate themselves for no purpose other than "my penis is quite bothersome".


----------



## Gingerbread Man (Jan 29, 2015)

*Re: Should trans-teen be able to use girl's lockerroom?*



TerraRising said:


> Real talk: Would anyone here pay money to have some docs hack off your dick? Because... that pretty much says you're fucked in the head. Only the mentally ill, drug addicts and cult fanatics would mutilate themselves for no purpose other than "my penis is quite bothersome".


Yet so many parents do it to their children. Do you also agree they are mentally ill, drug addicts and cult fanatics?


----------



## RiC David (Jun 20, 2006)

Count Vertigo said:


> If it makes all the *actual girls* in that locker room uncomfortable (which HE sure as hell would), then it shouldn't be fucking allowed just because a guy with a wig thinks he's a girl and doesn't like seeing dicks.
> 
> Fuck, for every good thing there is about living in this day and age there's a fucked up thing like this.


Well let's all just hope that if you have children none of them turn out to have gender identity disorder, which is not 'cured' by telling them "You're a guy who thinks he's a girl" but by transitioning into the gender they, not their body, are.

Would you suddenly become less ignorant and more understanding if it were your child or would you pile on to their misery by making no effort to understand the psychological condition?

If you were put in a machine that switched bodies with another person, *would you be that person or would you be yourself in their body*? You wake up and look in the mirror and a woman reflects back at you. To everybody else, *of course* you're a woman - hello? You have a vagina. YOU know that you, the conscious awareness, the collection of thoughts and memories, are still the guy you always were. That's the closest you can come to putting yourself in their situation.

*I mean do you think that for all these generations people have just been making it up?* That they're just "confused" even though they live their entire lives as a different gender and *no longer feel mixed up once they do?*

You don't understand it because it's weird and hard to relate to. I can have patience for that but people like yourself and others here have a really nasty atittude about it, there's that callous and spiteful "fuck these freaks" atittude and *that affects real people's real lives. That's the difference between happiness and depression, between enjoying life and committing suicide because you were dealt an uncommon hand* that few people have the humanity to try to understand.

How _would_ you react if your son never seemed like a boy, ever, and eventually confided in you. You tell them "You're confused son, now stop with that nonsense because you're pissing me off" and what effect do you think that has on them? 'Even my parents don't care to understand me'.

People talk bullshit about *"political correctness", no this is about humanity and about understanding the human brain*, something some hypocrites here call out for but only when it's something they can already understand.

Then some of you see girls like this










And say "See now she's acceptable transgender because she looks like a girl to me"

*THE ONLY DIFFERENCE IS WHEN THEY BEGAN HORMONE REPLACEMENT THERAPY AND IF PUBERTY HAS LEFT THEM FOREVER MASCULINE*

You may be the same either way but some people here function on this low level "Do they look like a chick or a dude?" when that has fuck all to do with the psychological state. *Ignorance is the plague, education is the cure.*


----------



## Count Vertigo (Jun 30, 2015)

RiC David said:


> Well let's all just hope that if you have children none of them turn out to have gender identity disorder, which is not 'cured' by telling them "You're a guy who thinks he's a girl" but by transitioning into the gender they, not their body, are.
> 
> Would you suddenly become less ignorant and more understanding if it were your child or would you pile on to their misery by making no effort to understand the psychological condition?
> 
> ...


First of all I would never raise my son to be a fucking ******, stop with that bullshit, second of all I don't care if they *look *like a girl or not, if they have a dick, they change with the ones that have dicks!


----------



## Arya Dark (Sep 8, 2006)

*What happens if they have both a penis and a vagina?*


----------



## Count Vertigo (Jun 30, 2015)

AryaDark said:


> *What happens if they have both a penis and a vagina?*


----------



## CamillePunk (Feb 10, 2011)

AryaDark said:


> *What happens if they have both a penis and a vagina?*


Count Vertigo would never raise a child to have both a penis and a vagina.


----------



## RiC David (Jun 20, 2006)

Count Vertigo said:


> First of all I would never raise my son to be a fucking ******, stop with that bullshit, second of all I don't care if they *look *like a girl or not, if they have a dick, they change with the ones that have dicks!


Oh you precious thing! You'd never raise your son to be "a fucking ******" - because that's why human beings have gender identity disorder isn't it? Because their parents weren't tough and manly enough, grrr!

The beautiful girl in that photo, I would imagine, does not have a dick considering she's clearly undergone hormone replacement therapy prior to puberty so that she isn't cursed as the poor subject of this thread is to look like "a dude in a wig". So the girl in the photo gets to use the female rooms because she doesn't have a dick right?

I'm just spitballin' here (I have a vague idea what that bizarre Americanism means) but what about if the trans girl girl girl girl girl (did I say that too many times) in the OP gets changed in the vagina's room but *doesn't show her genitalia and simply covers up while she gets changed* - AS SHE OBVIOUSLY WOULD?

Am I getting deja vu? That's because you don't answer these questions. *The rights of the individual trump the comfort of the masses.* Do you really think all European-Americans were comfortable with desegregation? Do you think everyone in the military was comfortable with openly gay soldiers? *We do not wait for everyone to be comfortable, we do what is right and eventually most people grow out of their ignorance* or die and leave behind less prejudiced descendants.

To her this is a daily reminder of how little her society thinks of her and the contempt she's shown (classmates walking out of class in protest). To those utter shitstains, what does it mean to them? *"Oh there's this weird boygirl in the corner of the room getting changed! If I don't stop staring, I might see some genitalia!"*

It's pathetic. It's pathetic that people of other minority groups in this thread are just as pigheaded when it comes to a different 'out-group'. I don't expect everyone to immediately understand such an unusual issue but the passion with which they say "NO! HELL NO! HE/IT SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED IN THERE" - *same shit their grandparents were told.*


----------



## Count Vertigo (Jun 30, 2015)

RiC David said:


> Oh you precious thing! You'd never raise your son to be "a fucking ******" - because that's why human beings have gender identity disorder isn't it? Because their parents weren't tough and manly enough, grrr!
> 
> The beautiful girl in that photo, I would imagine, does not have a dick considering she's clearly undergone hormone replacement therapy prior to puberty so that she isn't cursed as the poor subject of this thread is to look like "a dude in a wig". So the girl in the photo gets to use the female rooms because she doesn't have a dick right?
> 
> ...


Are you LGBT by any chance?


----------



## RiC David (Jun 20, 2006)

Count Vertigo said:


> Are you LGBT by any chance?


Why? Are you heterosexual by any chance?


I know this interaction has zero chance of positively impacting anything on your end, I'm largely continuing for the sake of anybody else reading and for mental stimulation. Just feel that's worth putting out there.

So okay, let's say I am. Yes I am. No actually let's say I'm not, No I'm not LGBT, why do you ask? I sure am kind answering the questions of a guy who lacks the strength of opinion to answer ones directed at him though aren't I?


----------



## Count Vertigo (Jun 30, 2015)

RiC David said:


> Why? Are you heterosexual by any chance?
> 
> 
> I know this interaction has zero chance of positively impacting anything on your end, I'm largely continuing for the sake of anybody else reading and for mental stimulation. Just feel that's worth putting out there.
> ...


Nah, I think you are. Pretty much impossible to be a straight normal dude and go out your way this much to defend a guy's in a wig right to change in the girls lockerroom.


----------



## Lord Wolfe (Feb 4, 2011)

^ Such hatred for tradition is much too common in far too many mediums in this profoundly sick world we live in. The general repudiation of tradition has led to the slow and unfortunate acceptance of fringe groups who seek the reformation of normality to include their perversities. There is nothing outdated or archaic about opposing stances to such issues, it's the useful idiots fueling the prevailing ideology that is progressivism who frame the issues this way. It's maddening to realize that so many people think it's bigoted or ignorant to oppose these mental dysfunctional wackos. True ignorance is ignoring the damage of cases like these which set dangerous and unhealthy precedents for future instances of dysphoria. 

This boy should not be allowed in a girl's locker room, he is a boy and will forever be until he is six feet under. That is the harsh reality of it; no matter when you start to mutilate or tamper with your body, you remain what you were birthed with. Such a statement will set a few people off, but that is expected when people grow up in a society that actively seeks to bury tradition.


----------



## RiC David (Jun 20, 2006)

Count Vertigo said:


> Nah, I think you are. Pretty much impossible to be a straight normal dude and go out your way this much to defend a guy's in a wig right to change in the girls lockerroom.


Exactly because who on Earth would someone care this much about something that doesn't personally affect them or people like them?

I'm bisexual to varying degrees. If you think that to be gay or bi is to give a shit about transgender people then you're absolutely wrong. Ask Caitlyn Jenner if her being trans makes her passionate about gay rights - the answer has shocked a lot of people. There's no unity; "this is different, they're not like us" is a universal state of mind open to all - prejudice is itself without prejudice.

What I defend is what I see to be right. I'll add transgender to the long list of things I've been presumed to be by people who can only fathom wanting to improve people's lives if it's *your* life. Why do you think I ask you about your hypothetical children? Because some people discover that little source of all goodness known as empathy once it's 'one of their own' being treated like crap.


----------



## Buffy The Vampire Slayer (May 31, 2011)

*There is a difficult way on saying on what this person wants to do in the girls locker room. I mean I am not here to judge anyone for their decision since their decision does not effect me at all. If she wants to use the girls locker room that so be it. It's her choice and personally not ours. I have no problem with transgender people. They are just like us but just lives with more a difficult life. But in my world, who the hell cares. It's not like these people are really in our lives or our houses. 

CP does bring in a lot of points which I can see while reading them and the same for Ric David. *


----------



## Rick_James (May 11, 2012)

Wow the fact that 15 people actually voted yes is hysterical.


----------



## ManiacMichaelMyers (Oct 23, 2009)

RiC David said:


> Exactly because who on Earth would someone care this much about something that doesn't personally affect them or people like them?
> 
> I'm bisexual to varying degrees. If you think that to be gay or bi is to give a shit about transgender people then you're absolutely wrong. Ask Caitlyn Jenner if her being trans makes her passionate about gay rights - the answer has shocked a lot of people. There's no unity; "this is different, they're not like us" is a universal state of mind open to all - prejudice is itself without prejudice.
> 
> What I defend is what I see to be right. I'll add transgender to the long list of things I've been presumed to be by people who can only fathom wanting to improve people's lives if it's *your* life. Why do you think I ask you about your hypothetical children? Because some people discover that little source of all goodness known as empathy once it's 'one of their own' being treated like crap.


You're trying to have a serious discussion about trans issues on a Wrestling Forum largely populated by immature and ignorant people. I understand you're trying to educate them about the trans lifestyle, but their replies are obviously of the close-minded variety and nothing you say will change that.

Accepting trans people requires an open mind and less rigid thinking than most of the conservative public can display. While I think the "change with the boys if you have a penis" (even if you otherwise look 100% female) viewpoint is ridiculous, I still think that doesn't automatically mean that the girls room is more appropriate either. 

Trans issues are just becoming a thing for the public at large. I am open-minded about such things but even I can't say I have all the answers to all the issues. A compromise mindset seems best, but not one that favors either side too heavily. 

You do bring up a good point though about a trans girl that looks more like a girl than this person does. I think the acceptance level _could _be higher, but there would be know way to know unless that story became headline news. 

In the current story, the trans teen's appearance is awkward no doubt. There's no way around it. Unless a full Caitlyn Jenner type transition happens, her appearance alone will likely make others uncomfortable.


----------



## CamillePunk (Feb 10, 2011)

Count Vertigo said:


> Nah, I think you are. Pretty much impossible to be a straight normal dude and go out your way this much to defend a guy's in a wig right to change in the girls lockerroom.


There are lesbian feminists who think trans is a symptom of patriarchy and shouldn't be accepted, and many straight people fight for LGBT rights. The world is not as black and white as you would like to believe.


----------



## GothicBohemian (May 26, 2012)

DaRealNugget said:


> the real question is, which bathroom should a hermaphrodite be using?





AryaDark said:


> *What happens if they have both a penis and a vagina?*



Do I have a story for this? Of course I do!

Serious answer? Intersex folks use whichever one is assigned to the gender they identify as if they have selected a distinct gender identity, which most do. My ex's best friend's friend's girlfriend (that's reads so clunky :lol ) has a little boy who was born with a very rare form of mosaicism. He is what was once called a true hermaphrodite, born with partial reproductive organs and genitalia from both genders, neither perfect, and the more obvious choice would seem to be female but he acts like a boy and he calls himself a boy. He's a boy, and he uses the boy's changing room at hockey practice. 

Will it all become more complicated as he ages? Naturally. He has enough of the required equipment to potentially experience aspects of puberty as both genders but lacks the essentials in the fully functional form required to mature into a sexually active man or woman without corrective surgery. His parents could have selected a physical gender for him shortly after birth, as was, and commonly still is, normal practice in these situations but instead chose to fight the medical establishment and follow the latest trend in gender assignment, leaving any final decision open until he is ready for it. fwiw, I support their choice and believe it's the right one but there is a trade-off between the trauma of being possibly assigned the "wrong" gender (as would have happened in this case based on his boy-ness thus far) and the social implications of growing up being mis-labelled as an "it". He's too young for his peers to have more than curiosity about his differences and hopefully growing up alongside him will minimize any taunting as they age. It's more the reaction from adults - Will the other parents frown on him using the boys' facilities once puberty hits and his physical gender potentially becomes more unclear, for example - and his insecurities once he begins noticing his unusual physicality, multiplying typical teenage embarrassment x1000, that raise concerns for the future.


----------



## RiC David (Jun 20, 2006)

ManiacMichaelMyers said:


> You're trying to have a serious discussion about trans issues on a Wrestling Forum largely populated by immature and ignorant people. I understand you're trying to educate them about the trans lifestyle, but their replies are obviously of the close-minded variety and nothing you say will change that.
> 
> Accepting trans people requires an open mind and less rigid thinking than most of the conservative public can display. While I think the "change with the boys if you have a penis" (even if you otherwise look 100% female) viewpoint is ridiculous, I still think that doesn't automatically mean that the girls room is more appropriate either.
> 
> ...


I appreciate your feedback and you raising the bar...who am I kidding...from picking the bar up off the ground as far as reasonable discussion goes. I will correct you when you say that I'm trying to have a serious discussion about trans issues on WF: the OP is trying to do that, I am simply responding. Don't worry, I completely get what you're saying but there is a tendency for people to ignore that someone else raised the serious topic (that I would NEVER want to raise in this intellectual shit'ole) and a small few of us are simply rebutting the views that others have been stated.

*I disagree about the compromise but don't fault anyone for leaning towards that*. My reasoning is that "you can't get married but you can have a civil partnership" doesn't work, nor does "you can use the public transport but you have to sit in a separate section" *because you're either accepted or you're not*.

*It comes down to the psychological state of transgenderism being understood and the South Park supported hysteria* (_"won't boys live their teenage lives as girls to sneak peaks at girls getting changed while being ostracised from their friends and family and disdained by strangers including myself?"_) being separated from the less sensational reality.

Probably everyone, myself included, has at one point thought "Na, either you're born male or you're born female and that's that" but then along comes education and we learn about the fascinating spectrum of psychological states of being that exist. *We can't relate because our mind and body are harmonious but all we need to is imagine we were dropped into a stranger's body and that's exactly what these people experience until they adjust their appearance and identity to match their *actual* self.*

I'm not directing this at you, just trying to help some people understand it or at least understand that they don't understand it. This is not equally important to both sides, just like "I don't want to fight alongside a f*ggot" isn't an equally reasonable position - *not one person has addressed why we can't just say get changed in the girl's locker room but cover your genitalia with a towel and be respectful by not watching others get changed*.

That would make this poor bitch so fucking happy, trust me I've seen that expression:










That's Nicole Maines who won her rights to use the female toilets and was well received because she's more attractive than the thread girl (speculating). See the humanity there and the "this world isn't so cruel as it seemed"? Contrast that with the cunts who walked out of class in protest of having a trans girl in their locker room. Contrast that with the people here on the first page - respected forum members.

Na it's fucked up and people need to know when they're being cold hearted pricks. If nobody else speaks up then why would anybody ever question their nasty attitudes?


----------



## RiC David (Jun 20, 2006)

GothicBohemian said:


> Do I have a story for this? Of course I do!
> 
> Serious answer? Intersex folks use whichever one is assigned to the gender they identify as if they have selected a distinct gender identity, which most do. My ex's best friend's friend's girlfriend (that's reads so clunky :lol ) has a little boy who was born with a very rare form of mosaicism. He is what was once called a true hermaphrodite, born with partial reproductive organs and genitalia from both genders, neither perfect, and the more obvious choice would seem to be female but he acts like a boy and he calls himself a boy. He's a boy, and he uses the boy's changing room at hockey practice.
> 
> Will it all become more complicated as he ages? Naturally. He has enough of the required equipment to potentially experience aspects of puberty as both genders but lacks the essentials in the fully functional form required to mature into a sexually active man or woman without corrective surgery. His parents could have selected a physical gender for him shortly after birth, as was, and commonly still is, normal practice in these situations but instead chose to fight the medical establishment and follow the latest trend in gender assignment, leaving any final decision open until he is ready for it. fwiw, I support their choice and believe it's the right one but there is a trade-off between the trauma of being possibly assigned the "wrong" gender (as would have happened in this case based on his boy-ness thus far) and the social implications of growing up being mis-labelled as an "it". He's too young for his peers to have more than curiosity about his differences and hopefully growing up alongside him will minimize any taunting as they age. It's more the reaction from adults - Will the other parents frown on him using the boys' facilities once puberty hits and his physical gender potentially becomes more unclear, for example - and his insecurities once he begins noticing his unusual physicality, multiplying typical teenage embarrassment x1000, that raise concerns for the future.


People who disagree with me and don't want to read my comments, at least read Goth's here.

To those "penis/vagina, simple, don't cater to these weirdos" people:

Here's the example of a little boy who knows he's a boy even though his ambiguous genitalia are more formed as the female than the male. Would you, @Plato @SHIV @Legit BOSS (to pick out some of the most disappointing inclusions) tell this child once they're in school _"No, you don't know what you are, it doesn't matter what you think you are, your genitalia is more female than male so you'll use the female rooms and I don't want you using the same rooms as my son"_?

Goth said it so perfectly "He's a boy, he says he's a boy" because we all KNOW what we are and sometimes, because nature is full of fascinatingly diverse combinations of variables, we form the wrong physical shell. Would this example somehow be different because the boy (or "thing" if you're a piece of shit) had a physical anomale to go with the psychological? So if you can see it then you understand it but if it's psychological then you might aswell be in the 1700s?

And for fuck's sake, *the trans girl in this thread IS ATTRACTED TO BOYS* so either you truly are dumb enough to think "Boys are going to tell all their friends and family that they identify as a girl so that they can play peeping tom or rape girls" or you just think "Well they're some weird he-she thing so they must be a rape danger, don't let that thing near my daughter".

No man that IS your daughter. That's MY daughter. You shouldn't have to father a child to treat them with tolerance and respect. Nobody other than the "I'd never raise my child to be a fucking ******" idiot has explained how they would be if their own son/daughter confided in them that they're transgender.

It's so easy to say "Don't let them near my loved ones" because they're not your loved ones. Do you have to see photographs of all the trans teenagers who have committed suicide because of the coldness of you otherwise intelligent and caring people? Do you really have so little compassion for someone who's dealt a really unfortunate card and is treated like she's a troublemaker or sex pest?



Spoiler: note to SHIV



I wouldn't have included you here based on what you mentioned to me before but you publicly stamped your approval so I'm publicly responding to that. If you don't want to reply then just ignore it but if you're sharing your views then I'll treat them like anyone else's, friend or otherwise - I challenge everybody who involved themselves.


----------



## Achilles (Feb 27, 2014)

RiC David said:


> People who disagree with me and don't want to read my comments, at least read Goth's here.
> 
> To those "penis/vagina, simple, don't cater to these weirdos" people:
> 
> ...


Your so-called compassion is nothing more than affirming people in every instance of mental illness, instead of looking for ways in order to help them overcome it. 

Anyway, I'm not interested in going any further in this conversation with you. So enjoy whining to yourself. :benson


----------



## birthday_massacre (Jan 30, 2013)

Plato said:


> Your so-called compassion is nothing more than affirming people in every instance of mental illness, instead of looking for ways in order to help them overcome it.
> 
> Anyway, I'm not interested in going any further in this conversation with you. So enjoy whining to yourself. :benson


Are you implying that transgender men and women are some how mentally ill?

I really hope that is not what you are claiming. Because if you are that is pretty ignorant. If I am misreading what you meant, then my apoligies but that is how it came off.


----------



## Achilles (Feb 27, 2014)

birthday_massacre said:


> *Are you implying that transgender men and women are some how mentally ill?*
> 
> I really hope that is not what you are claiming. Because if you are that is pretty ignorant. If I am misreading what you meant, then my apoligies but that is how it came off.


Yes, and most people outside of a few Western nations would agree.


----------



## Gingerbread Man (Jan 29, 2015)

Plato said:


> Yes, and most people outside of a few Western nations would agree.


Can you elaborate on how it is a mental illness?


----------



## Achilles (Feb 27, 2014)

Gingerbread Man said:


> Can you elaborate on how it is a mental illness?


They think they are a gender which they are not, and usually justify this by claiming some sort of intuitive attraction to specific societal mores.


----------



## birthday_massacre (Jan 30, 2013)

Plato said:


> Yes, and most people outside of a few Western nations would agree.


Then its an ignorant thing to say. So you think gay people are mentally ill as well?

Also most people think that God is real and the bible is real but that does not make them right .


----------



## Gingerbread Man (Jan 29, 2015)

Plato said:


> They think they are a gender which they are not, and usually justify this by claiming some sort of intuitive attraction to specific societal mores.


Is an extra X chromosome or a Y chromosome supposed to determined how you are supposed to view yourself?


----------



## Achilles (Feb 27, 2014)

Gingerbread Man said:


> Is an extra X chromosome or a Y chromosome supposed to determined how you are supposed to view yourself?


Is your skin colour or ethnicity suppose to determine how you view yourself? Would you think a Swede who believed that he was in truth an African-American to be a sane person?


----------



## Gingerbread Man (Jan 29, 2015)

Plato said:


> Is your skin colour or ethnicity suppose to determine how you view yourself? Would you think a Swede who believed that he was in truth an African-American to be a sane person?


That is completely different. Those 2 groups live in completely different parts of the world. XY and XX people and others all live intertwined. The sex of a baby is determined by genetics. Which means when you were conceived there was a chance of you being either a XY "Male" or a XX "Female". So for starters all of us had a chance at conception to be either sex. So that's already one thing to keep in mind. In the womb we all have a vagina then depending on if you have an X and Y chromosome, it either further develops as is or it closes and begins to form a penis. So in the first few weeks XX and XY are identical. Literally XY produced more testosterone and XX more estrogen and you developed based on what you had more of. Furthermore "males" also produce estrogen and "females" also produce testosterone just in lesser quantities. Biologically we have a lot in common. It's not just male and female. It's not as black and white as you think.


----------



## Horsetooth Jackass (May 17, 2011)

if you have a penis you use the mens room.


----------



## Achilles (Feb 27, 2014)

Gingerbread Man said:


> That is completely different. Those 2 groups live in completely different parts of the world. XY and XX people and others all live intertwined. The sex of a baby is determined by genetics. Which means when you were conceived their was a chance of you being either a XY "Male" or a XX "Female". So for starters all of us had a chance at conception to be either sex. So that's already one thing in common. In the womb we all have a vagina then depending of if you got an X and Y chromosome, it either further develops as is or it closes and begins to for a penis. So in the first few weeks XX and XY are identical. Literally XY produced more testosterone and XX more estrogen and you developed based on what you had more of. Furthermore "males" also produce estrogen and "females" also produce testosterone. Biologically we have a lot in common. It's not just male and female. It's not as black and white as you think.


What about two people that were adopted by the same parents? One is a Swede and one is black? Can they change their ethnicity based on their attraction to aspects of the other one's culture? I know the example of race seems unconventional, but some people have claimed it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rachel_Dolezal#Racial_identity I'm also sure that it will one day be considered "ignorant" to disagree with a person claiming they are a race which they are clearly not.

Yes, you are right that there is a chance that one may be conceived as the other gender. But that does not make it sensible to claim that you came out as the wrong one.


----------



## birthday_massacre (Jan 30, 2013)

Plato said:


> Is your skin colour or ethnicity suppose to determine how you view yourself? Would you think a Swede who believed that he was in truth an African-American to be a sane person?












So if that guy claimed he was black, then you would claim he isn't sane ?


----------



## Gingerbread Man (Jan 29, 2015)

Plato said:


> What about two people that were adopted by the same parents? One is a Swede and one is black? Can they change their ethnicity based on their attractions to aspects of the other one's culture? I know the example of race seems unconventional, but some people have claimed it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rachel_Dolezal#Racial_identity I'm also sure that it will one day be considered "ignorant" to disagree with a person claiming they are a race which they are clearly not.
> 
> Yes, you are right that there is a chance that one may be conceived as the other gender. But that does not make it sensible to claim that you came out as the wrong one.


Well ethnicity is like your nationality and stuff like that. People wish they were born somewhere else all the time. Culture also ties into that. The culture you grew up on is your culture. People get involved in other cultures all the time. Now onto the "Racial Identity". I'll take that serious when you show me how many people have killed themselves over not being able to identify as a different race. Kids and teens make the decision to kill themselves over gender identity at an early age. That's more real and proving of it being more of a real thing than whatever claims you brought up.


----------



## Achilles (Feb 27, 2014)

Gingerbread Man said:


> Well ethnicity is like your nationality and stuff like that. People wish they were born somewhere else all the time. Culture also ties into that. The culture you grew up on is your culture. People get involved in other cultures all the time. Now onto the "Racial Identity". I'll take that serious when you show me how many people have killed themselves over not being able to identify as a different race. Kids and teens make the decision to kill themselves over gender identity at an early age. That's more real and proving of it being more of a real thing than whatever claims you brought up.


People killing themselves is always a horrible tragedy. However, it does not justify transgenderism. People are at times willing to die for things that are categorically wrong. Moreover, mental illnesses can sadly lead some to despair, and even to commit suicide.


----------



## Achilles (Feb 27, 2014)

birthday_massacre said:


> So if that guy claimed he was black, then you would claim he isn't sane ?


I don't know who that is. However, if George W. Bush, for instance, started to identify as ethnically Pakistani, then yes, I would say he's mentally ill.


----------



## birthday_massacre (Jan 30, 2013)

Plato said:


> I don't know who that is. However, if George W. Bush, for instance, started to identify as ethnically Pakistani, then yes, I would say he's mentally ill.


That is funny because he is black.

HIs father is african american.

Thank you for proving your ignorance.

Just because someone does not look black doesn't mean they are not black, just like just because someone looks like a male doesn't mean he isn't a female.


checkmate


----------



## Loudon Wainwright (Jul 23, 2014)

birthday_massacre said:


> That is funny because he is black.
> HIs father is african american.
> Thank you for proving your ignorance.
> Just because someone does not look black doesn't mean they are not black, just like just because someone looks like a male doesn't mean he isn't a female.
> checkmate


You can look through his family tree to see that he's got black family. Where do you look to see if a man is really a woman? Nowhere, because a man is a man and a woman is a woman. Transgender folk are no different than people with severe mental illness and should be treated the same. Surely heavy meds are in order to cure their delusions.


----------



## Achilles (Feb 27, 2014)

birthday_massacre said:


> That is funny because he is black.
> 
> HIs father is african american.
> 
> ...


Are you an idiot or on drugs or something? I said I didn't know who that guy was. I made no comment about him. Instead, I mentioned George W. Bush. Did you just fucking imagine the response you wanted to read?

Anyway, thank you for proving that you're out of your mind. :drake1


----------



## birthday_massacre (Jan 30, 2013)

Plato said:


> Are you an idiot or on drugs or something? I said I didn't know who that guy was. I made no comment about him. Instead, I mentioned George W. Bush. Did you just fucking imagine the response you wanted to read?
> 
> Anyway, thank you for proving that you're out of your mind. :drake1


And you don't know who any of these transgendered people are either yet you comment on them. And yes you did comment on him but you just subbed GWs name instead. we both know exactly what you were implying and it blew up in your face.

You couldn't even answer my question directly. The only one out of their minds here is you and your ignorance.


----------



## birthday_massacre (Jan 30, 2013)

Loudon Wainwright said:


> You can look through his family tree to see that he's got black family. Where do you look to see if a man is really a woman? Nowhere, because a man is a man and a woman is a woman. Transgender folk are no different than people with severe mental illness and should be treated the same. Surely heavy meds are in order to cure their delusions.


You do know that science have seen that transgendered and gay people in most cases have a brain similar to the gender they associate with right?

Its not a mental illness just like being gay is not a choice nor is that a mental illness.


----------



## Loudon Wainwright (Jul 23, 2014)

birthday_massacre said:


> You do know that science have seen that transgendered and gay people in most cases have a brain similar to the gender they associate with right?
> Its not a mental illness just like being gay is not a choice nor is that a mental illness.


Pull down the fellow's pants and see what's waving in your face. It's as simple as that. These dudes can claim to be a glass of orange juice if they want, more power to them, that doesn't change the fact that they're men. 

You definitely can choose if you're gay or not, but that's a discussion for a different thread.


----------



## birthday_massacre (Jan 30, 2013)

Loudon Wainwright said:


> Pull down the fellow's pants and see what's waving in your face. It's as simple as that. These dudes can claim to be a glass of orange juice if they want, more power to them, that doesn't change the fact that they're men.
> 
> You definitely can choose if you're gay or not, but that's a discussion for a different thread.


Its not as simple as that. Maybe if you were more educated you would realize that. But keep showing your ignorance you do on a number of topics like this. 

And no you can't choose that you are gay, just like you don't chose that you are straight. You just proved my point.


----------



## Dell (Feb 24, 2014)

Loudon Wainwright said:


> You definitely can choose if you're gay or not, but that's a discussion for a different thread.


How can you choose to be gay? Yeah man, all those kids that get disowned by their familes and friends when they come out and have their lives ruined, they should have just made a better choice. You think it's that simple.

I hope you're just on the wind up and you are not seriously this ignorant. When I joined few years ago you were a much better poster with witty posts but now you suck.


----------



## Rick Sanchez (Dec 30, 2012)

All I'll say is that if you have a dick, you have no business in a girls locker room. And vice versa. And if you're a parent and you have no problem with your daughter (trying to be a boy) going to a boys locker room or your son (trying to be a girl) going to a girls locker room, don't act surprised if something bad happens one day. Whether it's rape or just hazing gone bad, it will eventually get out of hand. 

Some people actually think a girl in a room full of hormonal boys, and nothing bad might happen? kay2


----------



## Achilles (Feb 27, 2014)

birthday_massacre said:


> And you don't know who any of these transgendered people are either yet you comment on them. And yes you did comment on him but you just subbed GWs name instead. we both know exactly what you were implying and it blew up in your face.
> 
> You couldn't even answer my question directly. The only one out of their minds here is you and your ignorance.


I can barely follow your convoluted reasoning, and honestly, I'm done with you after I try and answer your crap in this post.

First of all, Pakistanis aren't black. Second of all, I used Bush as an example because I know he isn't Pakistani. Thirdly, I knew that your tiny brain was trying to entrap me by making me say that some guy was white, who may well be of partially African descent - which of course had little to do with the argument I was making. I mean why else would you post some random guy's photo? Also, I hope that you claiming that my use of Bush as an example was some sort of way to avoid your profound question is just the result of you being embarrassed that you didn't read my original reply correctly; otherwise, you need to seek help. 

Anyway, keep thinking that you're a skilled rhetorician, buddy. :heyman6 I'm off to talk to people that aren't complete lunatics.


----------



## Loudon Wainwright (Jul 23, 2014)

Dell said:


> How can you choose to be gay? Yeah man, all those kids that get disowned by their familes and friends when they come out and have their lives ruined, they should have just made a better choice. You think it's that simple.


Yes, it _is_ that simple. You're a dude and you want to be straight? Don't fuck other dudes in the ass. Voila, you're straight.



birthday_massacre said:


> Its not as simple as that. Maybe if you were more educated you would realize that.


It seems pretty damn simple to me. A man has a penis. A woman doesn't. Everything else is just over-complicating it to turn victims of mental illness into the new cause of the day. 20 years from now we'll be supporting sheep fuckers because they "can't choose" not to be sheep.


----------



## JMGray491 (Aug 31, 2015)

Tata Toothy said:


> if you have a penis you use the mens room.


and if you used to have a penis you use it too. There should never be a cross over.


----------



## Irish Dude (Aug 22, 2012)

Men go in the male bathroom. Women go in the female bathroom. What is the difference between a man and a woman? The man has a dick the woman doesn't.


----------



## JMGray491 (Aug 31, 2015)

You are what God made you. There is no possible way to become a female as a male or vice versa. Technicalities win this debate. So does science, ironically.


----------



## Irish Dude (Aug 22, 2012)

birthday_massacre said:


> That is funny because he is black.
> 
> HIs father is african american.


He is white. His father his black and his mother is white. His skin colour is white not black. You look at him you see a white guy. He has black ancestry but he *is* white. You can call him half black, but he isn't black. 

If me, my parents, my grandparent and my great grandparents are white but 300 years ago one acestor was black does that make me black? 

That's my view on it. Is there any scientific shit that states otherwise?

edit: https://i2.wp.com/img4.imageshack.us/img4/5867/wentunclechrisdad.jpg His father is on the left. He isn't black, he could be half black making WM quarter black at tops (is it even a thing?)


----------



## JMGray491 (Aug 31, 2015)

Luis Magalhaes said:


> He is white. His father his black and his mother is white. His skin colour is white not black. You look at him you see a white guy. He has black ancestry but he *is* white. You can call him half black, but he isn't black.
> 
> If me, my parents, my grandparent and my great grandparents are white but 300 years ago one acestor was black does that make me black?
> 
> ...


The correct term is mixed, therefore he is considered on his license to be mixed or other race.


----------



## samizayn (Apr 25, 2011)

Luis Magalhaes said:


> That's my view on it. Is there any scientific shit that states otherwise?
> 
> edit: https://i2.wp.com/img4.imageshack.us/img4/5867/wentunclechrisdad.jpg His father is on the left. He isn't black, he could be half black making WM quarter black at tops (is it even a thing?)


Ethnicity isn't scientific and it's a lot more personal than just what you come across as to people. Otherwise people that by chance look Asian would have to be referred to as Asian, which obviously makes no sense.

Wentworth Miller is absolutely irrelevant to this topic though so I'm not sure why he's being discussed


----------



## birthday_massacre (Jan 30, 2013)

Luis Magalhaes said:


> He is white. His father his black and his mother is white. His skin colour is white not black. You look at him you see a white guy. He has black ancestry but he *is* white. You can call him half black, but he isn't black.
> 
> If me, my parents, my grandparent and my great grandparents are white but 300 years ago one acestor was black does that make me black?
> 
> ...


No he is black. Just like the rock is black. or are you going to claim the rock is not black.


----------



## birthday_massacre (Jan 30, 2013)

Plato said:


> I can barely follow your convoluted reasoning, and honestly, I'm done with you after I try and answer your crap in this post.
> 
> First of all, Pakistanis aren't black. Second of all, I used Bush as an example because I know he isn't Pakistani. Thirdly, I knew that your tiny brain was trying to entrap me by making me say that some guy was white, who may well be of partially African descent - which of course had little to do with the argument I was making. I mean why else would you post some random guy's photo? Also, I hope that you claiming that my use of Bush as an example was some sort of way to avoid your profound question is just the result of you being embarrassed that you didn't read my original reply correctly; otherwise, you need to seek help.
> 
> Anyway, keep thinking that you're a skilled rhetorician, buddy. :heyman6 I'm off to talk to people that aren't complete lunatics.


Sorry you are not smart enough to follow along, that is not my problem but you ignorance shines through in this post and I can see why you can't follow along. And that is ok. That is just ignorance. Like I said, go educate yourself some more. Maybe you will finally understand.

And the analogy i was making is correct. Just because someone doesn't LOOK like they are black or a certain gender, it doesn't mean they are not. Sorry your can't wrap your little brain around that.


----------



## Irish Dude (Aug 22, 2012)

birthday_massacre said:


> No he is black. Just like the rock is black. or are you going to claim the rock is not black.


But Rocky looks black (or brown). And his father WAS black. Wentworth looks white and his father also looks white, so at best one of Wentworths grandparents looks/looked black. Am I black if all my ancestors are white except one 500 years ago? Please answer that.


----------



## birthday_massacre (Jan 30, 2013)

Luis Magalhaes said:


> But Rocky looks black (or brown). And his father WAS black. Wentworth looks white and his father also looks white, so at best one of Wentworths grandparents looks/looked black. Am I black if all my ancestors are white except one 500 years ago? Please answer that.


The Rock looks Samoan not black. And Wentworth millers father is BLACK but he like his son does not look black.

They still are black. Oh in that picture does that guy in the middle not look black? That is his uncle aka his fathers brother.

There are tons of other examples where people have a black parent and they look white but the person is still black.

You can't tell someone you are not black because you dont look it. Just like you can't tell someone oh just because you feel like a woman but have male body parts, you are not a woman.


----------



## Dell (Feb 24, 2014)

Loudon Wainwright said:


> Yes, it _is_ that simple. You're a dude and you want to be straight? Don't fuck other dudes in the ass. Voila, you're straight.


 What's your stance on gays out of curiosity? 

I get where you're coming from but I think you're being close minded about it. If you're attracted to the same sex, you can't suppress those emotions and just marry a woman anyway dude.


----------



## birthday_massacre (Jan 30, 2013)

Dell said:


> What's your stance on gays out of curiosity?
> 
> I get where you're coming from but I think you're being close minded about it. If you're attracted to the same sex, you can't suppress those emotions and just marry a woman anyway dude.


He has said being gay is a choice which is laughable.


here is the quote from this thread



Loudon Wainwright said:


> You definitely can choose if you're gay or not, but that's a discussion for a different thread.


----------



## Irish Dude (Aug 22, 2012)

birthday_massacre said:


> The Rock looks Samoan not black. And Wentworth millers father is BLACK but he like his son does not look black.
> 
> They still are black. Oh in that picture does that guy in the middle not look black? That is his uncle aka his fathers brother.
> 
> There are tons of other examples where people have a black parent and they look white but the person is still black.


But their skin is white. We agree on that! So he is both black and white, but he looks white. So shouldn't he be mixed or half black instead of black?

And in my case? Please answer that. Am I black?

edit: I saw it now "You can't tell someone you are not black because you dont look it. Just like you can't tell someone oh just because you feel like a woman but have male body parts, you are not a woman."

So I'm black because one ancestor of mine 500 years ago was black. So aren't we all black? I'm really trying to understand this

I disagree on the male female part. You feel like a woman but if you have male genitallia and no female genitallia you are a man. That's the definition of a man, no other way arround it. If you have both or change it it's a different story. If someone cuts your dick off, you're still a man because you have balls.


----------



## CenaBoy4Life (Jul 31, 2013)

Having gay sex is a choice.

Being gay is not.

I think thats what he means maybe.

Anyways my opinion on this is preOP stay out of the girls room. Post OP use the girls room.


----------



## birthday_massacre (Jan 30, 2013)

Luis Magalhaes said:


> But their skin is white. We agree on that! So he is both black and white, but he looks white. So shouldn't he be mixed or half black instead of black?
> 
> And in my case? Please answer that. Am I black?


People don't call Obama mixed they call him black, do they not? 

They call him the first black president not the first mixed race president. 



Luis Magalhaes said:


> So I'm black because one ancestor of mine 500 years ago was black. So aren't we all black? I'm really trying to understand this
> 
> I disagree on the male female part. You feel like a woman but if you have male genitallia and no female genitallia you are a man. That's the definition of a man, no other way arround it. If you have both or change it it's a different story. If someone cuts your dick off, you're still a man because you have balls.



And its fine if you want to call them mixed. That is why before transgendered have a sex changed they are called transgendered.

That is pretty much like being a mixed race. Don't you think.

So if you have male parts but feel like a women.
Then have a sex change to get a vagina, then is that person now a woman in your mind because they have a vagina now?


----------



## birthday_massacre (Jan 30, 2013)

CenaBoy4Life said:


> Having gay sex is a choice.
> 
> Being gay is not.
> 
> ...


Having any sex is a choice the gender is irrelevant. But who you are attracted to is not a choice.


----------



## Irish Dude (Aug 22, 2012)

I saw it now "You can't tell someone you are not black because you dont look it. Just like you can't tell someone oh just because you feel like a woman but have male body parts, you are not a woman."

So I'm black because one ancestor of mine 500 years ago was black. So aren't we all black? I'm really trying to understand this

I disagree on the male female part. You feel like a woman but if you have male genitallia and no female genitallia you are a man. That's the definition of a man, no other way arround it. If you have both or change it it's a different story. If someone cuts your dick off, you're still a man because you have balls.



birthday_massacre said:


> People don't call Obama mixed they call him black, do they not?
> 
> They call him the first black president not the first mixed race president.
> 
> ...


I think I'm confused now.



birthday_massacre said:


> .
> 
> So if you have male parts but feel like a women.
> Then have a sex change to get a vagina, then is that person now a woman in your mind because they have a vagina now?


Yes. Now you are a woman. Vagina woman, dick man. If you change you change, the past doesn't matter.


----------



## birthday_massacre (Jan 30, 2013)

Luis Magalhaes said:


> I saw it now "You can't tell someone you are not black because you dont look it. Just like you can't tell someone oh just because you feel like a woman but have male body parts, you are not a woman."
> 
> So I'm black because one ancestor of mine 500 years ago was black. So aren't we all black? I'm really trying to understand this
> 
> ...


How are you confused.

Let me ask you this.

If a person with a penis feels like a woman, but has a sex change to make a vagina instead of their penis.
Is this person now a woman because they now have a vagina?


----------



## Count Vertigo (Jun 30, 2015)

birthday_massacre said:


> How are you confused.
> 
> Let me ask you this.
> 
> ...


Yes.

Oh God what's fucking next, black people wearing make up and claiming they are white, guys putting on fake tails and claiming they are dogs, illegal Mexican immigrants claiming they are legit US citizens because *THEY FEEL LIKE IT?* :ti? What a fucking fucked up world.


----------



## Irish Dude (Aug 22, 2012)

birthday_massacre said:


> How are you confused.
> 
> Let me ask you this.
> 
> ...


I'm confused about the race thing, not the gender. Vagina = woman, Dick = man. If you are a man and do a operation and put a vagina in the place of your dick you are a woman now.


----------



## birthday_massacre (Jan 30, 2013)

Ok so now we are making progress.

How about this then for Luis and Count Vertigo.

IF someone has male parts but feels like a women. Pre op call them transgender.
then post op you can call them a woman.

Is that fair?

My mixed race and transgender analogy does make sense.

Mixed race is someone that has two different races for their family right?
Just like transgendered is someone that has one set of sexual organs but has another sexual identity. So like male organs but has a woman sexual identity . 

Does that make sense ?


----------



## birthday_massacre (Jan 30, 2013)

Count Vertigo said:


> Yes.
> 
> Oh God what's fucking next, black people wearing make up and claiming they are white, guys putting on fake tails and claiming they are dogs, illegal Mexican immigrants claiming they are legit US citizens because *THEY FEEL LIKE IT?* :ti? What a fucking fucked up world.


You do know that people with male sexual organs but feel like a woman, has to do with their brain being more like a womans brain than a mans brain right? They have the sexual identy of a woman but they happened to be born with a male sexual organs. Its not a choice.

The race thing is just because you don't look like a certain race, doesn't mean you are not that race.

As for the mexican immigrant thing, you know they can become US citizens right . Also if two mexican immigrates are in the US and give birth to a child in the US that child is a US citizen.


----------



## LaMelo (Jan 13, 2015)

I changed my mind I don't have a problem with it.


----------



## Count Vertigo (Jun 30, 2015)

birthday_massacre said:


> You do know that people with male sexual organs but feel like a woman, has to do with their brain being more like a womans brain than a mans brain right? They have the sexual identy of a woman but they happened to be born with a male sexual organs. Its not a choice.
> 
> The race thing is just because you don't look like a certain race, doesn't mean you are not that race.
> 
> As for the mexican immigrant thing, you know they can become US citizens right . Also if two mexican immigrates are in the US and give birth to a child in the US that child is a US citizen.


It is, you deal with it, go to some hoes and start using the dick you have.

I'm talking about full blown black people that you can't even see at night with no white ancestry.

Yeah, they can become, just like this dude can become a woman if he gets surgery, but as of now, neither he or the Mexicans are what they claim to be.

It's people like you that go around preaching that shit like this is OK that make this happen. This time next year you hear about a guy that stopped shaving his body and put on a fake tail that started fucking stray dogs on the street and barked at people that tried to stop him and refused to provide ID to the police because he feels like a dog trapped in a man's body wanting to sue the government for animal cruelty and denial of freedom.


----------



## Born of Osiris (Oct 29, 2013)

Count Vertigo said:


> It is, you deal with it, go to some hoes and start using the dick you have.
> 
> I'm talking about full blown black people that you can't even see at night with no white ancestry.
> 
> ...


This is literally the same type of fallacy that homophobes use against gays. "Slippery slope" :eyeroll


----------



## Count Vertigo (Jun 30, 2015)

Shala☆Frost;52354209 said:


> This is literally the same type of fallacy that homophobes use against gays. "Slippery slope" :eyeroll


Took me a long time to go from homophobe to indifferent, so yeah, not a homophobe here, but this shit is just too much. 

Should this guy be sent into a female prison in he kills someone tomorrow because he has a wig and thinks he's a girl? That's what I thought.


----------



## birthday_massacre (Jan 30, 2013)

Count Vertigo said:


> It is, you deal with it, go to some hoes and start using the dick you have.
> 
> I'm talking about full blown black people that you can't even see at night with no white ancestry.
> 
> ...


Yes you are right, its people like me that go around preaching ACCEPTANCE, that is such a bad thing. You are the kind of person that wanted to keep the blacks segregated and didn't want to let women vote. 

But people like me stood up for them and accepted them. YUP I'm the bad guy. 

And now you go to beastality LOL That is typical of people like you. You do know animals can't give consent right. 

I always love when ignorant people like you try to compare being gay or being transgender to people having sex with animals. It just shows how ignorant you really are.


----------



## CenaBoy4Life (Jul 31, 2013)

I identify as trans-species personally. I am a panda trapped in a human mans body.

Because I am an engendered species I demand a free home, money, and food. Basically a zoo for myself but no visitors because that violates my privacy.


----------



## Count Vertigo (Jun 30, 2015)

birthday_massacre said:


> Yes you are right, its people like me that go around preaching ACCEPTANCE, that is such a bad thing. You are the kind of person that wanted to keep the blacks segregated and didn't want to let women vote.
> 
> But people like me stood up for them and accepted them. YUP I'm the bad guy.
> 
> ...


But his brain functions just like the one of a dog, why don't we accept that shit too?


----------



## birthday_massacre (Jan 30, 2013)

Count Vertigo said:


> Took me a long time to go from homophobe to indifferent, so yeah, not a homophobe here, but this shit is just too much.
> 
> Should this guy be sent into a female prison in he kills someone tomorrow because he has a wig and thinks he's a girl? That's what I thought.


If this person had a sex change and had a vagina , what would you answer be? Mens prison or womens?


----------



## birthday_massacre (Jan 30, 2013)

Count Vertigo said:


> But his brain functions just like the one of a dog, why don't we accept that shit too?


He can act like a dog all he wants but animals cannot give consent to sex. Its just like how an adult can't have sex with a minor. You do know by you going this silly route it makes you look even more ignorant right? Its actually making your case worse.


----------



## QuasiModo (Sep 10, 2015)

birthday_massacre said:


> If this person had a sex change and had a vagina , what would you answer be? Mens prison or womens?


can s/he have a baby? just cause you mutilate your genitals, it dont make you a woman.

In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act.

George Orwell


----------



## birthday_massacre (Jan 30, 2013)

QuasiModo said:


> can s/he have a baby? just cause you mutilate your genitals, it dont make you a woman.
> 
> In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act.
> 
> George Orwell


So using your logic if a woman cannot have a baby, maybe she is infertile , then that means she should go to a mens prison ?


----------



## RiC David (Jun 20, 2006)

Plato said:


> Your so-called compassion is nothing more than affirming people in every instance of mental illness, instead of looking for ways in order to help them overcome it.
> 
> Anyway, I'm not interested in going any further in this conversation with you. So enjoy whining to yourself.


It's so-called compassion because what? It's something other than empathy because what? Because it's not your position but you'd rather not acknowledge that your position lacks empathy/compassion? Affirming people in every instance of mental illness - how many instances of mental illness have you heard me discuss? Every? Or just this one?

The way you "overcome" this is by living as the gender you are rather than the body you were born into. Science is on my side here and conveniently you haven't assessed the boy with mostly female genitalia - should he be helped to overcome the delusion that he's male when his partial vagina says otherwise?

You name yourself after a philosopher then show no interest in understand the confusing or unusual - your position is the same as someone who's never heard of the psychological state and just says "They're a freak in a wig, don't enable them".

Yeah I'm "whining" like I was "whining" about gay marriage and I'd be "whining" about desegregating water fountains. Most of us are in favour of acceptance/equality/understanding until the next group comes along, then it's just "so-called compassion" and "whining". 'Plato' my f'n arse! Because Plato would have no desire to discuss this either I'm sure.


----------



## The Dazzler (Mar 26, 2007)

It's a man in a dress. If you have a dick, you're a man.

Holy shit at that sign (Girls Rights Matter) if it's in support of him. Because a delusional man puts on a dress, the women have to let him use their bathroom whether they like it or not. Haha WTF? :surprise:



> “We will promote tolerance and acceptance of all students that attend our district while not tolerating bullying/harassing behaviors of any type in any form,” the statement reads.


Not wanting a man in the woman's bathroom is now harrassment/bullying. fpalm


----------



## RiC David (Jun 20, 2006)

QuasiModo said:


> can s/he have a baby? just cause you mutilate your genitals, it dont make you a woman.
> 
> In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act.
> 
> George Orwell


GothicBohemian shared a real life story of an intersex child (every person should be a person first and an adjective second, not a noun) born with ambiguous genitalia that was more female than male. The child turned out to be a boy and knew he was a boy as instinctively as _you _know your own gender. Nobody so far has answered me this so as a teller of truth I expect you'll want to:

Should that boy not be considered a boy and be forced to use either the girls' rooms or have some special gender neutral room built? Should we be like Vince Russo and just say "Bro, look at the frikkin' genitals"?

Nature is not as binary or neat as you and others insist. I imagine you'll say "He's different because he has ambiguous genitalia" but he's closer to female than male yet psychologically, which is what we ARE, he's just a boy. When doctors assign a gender at birth, they leave it open for the individual to decide once they're old enough to tell their parents what they are because we instinctively know what we are more than doctors/strangers on the internet.

It's bizarre but it exists whether you understand it or not. What's your explanation for it? I really wish you would SEE a transgender kid and live around them and know how much this affects THEIR capacity for happiness more than that of people who apparently can't just not stare at them while they're getting changed.




Count Vertigo said:


> But his brain functions just like the one of a dog, why don't we accept that shit too?


Simple: because no human being is ever dog or panda. Every human being in every culture on planet Earth is categorised as either male, female, or rarely gender ambiguous. This means that anomales can occur when the body and the brain/consciousness/self are out of synch. It never occurs that a human being develops in the womb as a dog.

My challenge to you is to not compare this to other things but to rebut what it actually is.

Won't teenage boys tell everyone they know that they're a girl so they can get mercilessly bullied and rejected/mistreated...I mean so they can watch girls getting changed?

Isn't this the same as being a dog or panda in a boy's body?

Note how infantile these slippery slope scare mongering counter arguments are.


----------



## Borias (Apr 3, 2011)

Well, it depends. If it's just the bathrooms, they may as well just make them all unisex and triple the size. Add proper privacy doors to the stalls, and separate the urinals a bit more to the side, and then who cares? Nobody I know of goes around genital flashing in public bathrooms.

Locker room/changing rooms however, are different. Whether or not someone that's trans is comfortable there or not, the desires of everyone else needs to be taken into account. There's no way our society is ready for a mixed room right now. It's an exploitable concept ("I'm totally trans, I need to shower with the girls", "That's not an erection because of your ass, it's just hormones. Keep washing.") While most WOULDN'T do that, SOMEONE will. And until society moves forward enough that this isn't an issue, gender neutral rooms are the best choice. Don't like it? Too bad, it's not completely about you, you're already getting special treatment to not be with the gender you don't identify as. Maybe put a few private shower stalls in a 3rd bathroom, so they can get cleaned up and dressed without causing a fuss. 

Now, one day maybe it'll be like Starship Troopers where everyone showers together, but not right now. Not even close. We gotta take some steps first. But it probably won't be widely accepted for a generation or so. (go ahead and ask your grandparents and most parents how they'd feel about it, and then realize they're likely the ones that would vote on changes) 

I applaud this individual for wanting better treatment for what is a hard situation, but sometimes you need to not keep pushing after concessions are made for you. This is one of those times.


----------



## Achilles (Feb 27, 2014)

RiC David said:


> It's so-called compassion because what? It's something other than empathy because what? Because it's not your position but you'd rather not acknowledge that your position lacks empathy/compassion? Affirming people in every instance of mental illness - how many instances of mental illness have you heard me discuss? Every? Or just this one?
> 
> The way you "overcome" this is by living as the gender you are rather than the body you were born into. Science is on my side here and conveniently you haven't assessed the boy with mostly female genitalia - should he be helped to overcome the delusion that he's male when his partial vagina says otherwise?
> 
> ...


----------



## Rick_James (May 11, 2012)

Um.... so if the person still has a penis, yet feels like a "female", I don't think that really gives them the right to be in same locker room as the females. And I'd understand why the young ladies would feel uncomfortable. Some things are just wrong lol.


----------



## RiC David (Jun 20, 2006)

Plato said:


>


That's the mark of a wise man right there. Enter a discussion, state your opinion then refuse to read any rebuttal - that's definitely what Plato would do. Hey if anyone wants to pursue truth, wisdom and understanding - be sure not to read things.

*I already know you aren't going to read any responses, I'm writing because other people are reading the discussion and if a point's made then it should be addressed*.

Class act though: _"Here are my views, please read them but don't say anything in return"_.


----------



## Rusty Shackleford (Aug 9, 2011)

Why is this even a story or a debate? A trans teen who still has their PENIS wants to use the same restroom as other teen girls. So, if you agree to this you're basically telling the girls that they have to accept seeing a penis in the bathroom because the person it belongs to believes that he is a female. So what happens if other boys decide that all of a sudden their transgender and they decide that they want to use the girls room? I would understand if she was being harassed while using the men's room but she got her own bathroom and she's still complaining cause she doesn't get to wait in 10 min lines to use the bathroom with the girls. Ridiculous.


----------



## RiC David (Jun 20, 2006)

Rick_James said:


> Um.... so if the person still has a penis, yet feels like a "female", I don't think that really gives them the right to be in same locker room as the females. And I'd understand why the young ladies would feel uncomfortable. Some things are just wrong lol.


What if they don't have a penis? What if they've undergone a physical sex change (which they won't be allowed to until they're 18)?

If instead of looking like a boy dressed as a girl, they look like this:










Then where should they change?

If they still have their male genitalia but look like this:










Then they should be in a locker room full of boys?

Look, I get pissed off when I see nasty comments with nothing but contempt for this poor kid because I know how much transgender people have to go through and puberty/adolescence is difficult enough without having your classmates walk out of class in protest of you getting changed in their lockerroom. Do you have any idea how many transgender people attempt suicide?

*41% of transgender people attempt suicide*

Plato here tells me I'm whining. That's all it is to most of you, "oh waa waa so our ignorance drives kids to kill themselves, stop moaning about it". Why do you think almost half of them try to kill themselves? Put yourself in their shoes and read this thread.

It doesn't help to respond in frustration but their callousness provokes it. I'll try to respond calmly to you:

How much do you know about gender dysphoria? Do you think that we should ignore the decades of medical research and understanding and instead just say "na they're wrong, who cares what they "feel" like"?

If you had a transgender child (this isn't something that comes about in teenage years, these people are in the wrong body from birth), born a boy but tells you their whole life that they're a girl, what would you do?

Here's that same girl at a much younger age:











Do you and others here truly believe that she's just a he who's dressing like a girl? You'd send this kid in with the boys because it might be uncomfortable for the girls otherwise? Yeah who gives a shit about how the trans kid will feel being surrounded by boys but that's their problem right? They "chose" to live as transgender (as Loudon stupidly puts it).

I don't want to ask so many questions that you'll answer none so please answer those. *And to the rest of you, understand this: if you have a child who turns out to be transgender, there's an almost 50/50 chance that you will be burying your child. Would you suddenly give a fuck and drop the "he's a he, I don't care what he thinks" or would you continue it and drive your child to suicide?*

PLEASE ANSWER THIS.


----------



## RiC David (Jun 20, 2006)

Rusty Shackleford said:


> Why is this even a story or a debate? A trans teen who still has their PENIS wants to use the same restroom as other teen girls. So, if you agree to this you're basically telling the girls that they have to accept seeing a penis in the bathroom because the person it belongs to believes that he is a female. *So what happens if other boys decide that all of a sudden their transgender and they decide that they want to use the girls room?* I would understand if she was being harassed while using the men's room but she got her own bathroom and she's still complaining cause she doesn't get to wait in 10 min lines to use the bathroom with the girls. Ridiculous.


Let me address this for all the people who are insulting their own intelligence with this idiotic hypothetical.

*People who have gender dysphoria will have exhibited signs THEIR WHOLE LIVES*. Do you *honestly* think that all it would take is going up to your teacher and saying "I'm transgender too!" and that's it, they'd let you use the girl's rooms? Are you, Loudon, Vertigo, and everybody else who can't tell a South Park cartoon from real life honestly that unintelligent? Or have you just not thought this through?

*The kid would OBVIOUSLY have to be investigated and pyschologically evaluated, their parents would OBVIOUSLY have to be interviewed!* Do you honestly think that if Johnny Troublemaker decides he'd like to get in the girls' room to perv out that they'll just let them? You think they're going to live their teenage life in and out of school as a girl?

This is actually even dumber than the people who said "If you allow gay marriage, guys will pretend they're gay and marry their friends for financial benefits" - _*have you even considered what it would be like to tell your entire family and every one of your friends that you're actually a girl?*_

Hormone replacement therapy. You understand that it's not just dressing differently but that *the kid would be prescribed hormone replacement? *THEY WOULD BE TAKING ANTI-TESTOSTERONE HORMONES! We're essentially talking about chemical castration here, *you and others actually think a boy will undergo chemical castration, dress as a girl every day of his life, accept the merciless bullying, tell his parents that he's a girl in a boy's body, undergo psychiatric evaluation so he could be allowed into the girl's toilets and locker rooms.*

What is he supposed to get an erection now that his penis and testicles are being rendered useless and are *shrinking* due to the treatment?

This is why I fucking hate what Stone and Parker of South Park did - people in society are not intelligent enough to think "Haha that's a funny comedic situation but obviously it wouldn't be like that in real life, we shouldn't decide on people's legal rights based off a cartoon". I really can't believe that you people, people who are otherwise intelligent individuals, think that boys will go through everything I just listed so that they can catch a sneaky peek of a nipple. Jesus fucking Christ that is idiotic.


----------



## Rusty Shackleford (Aug 9, 2011)

RiC David said:


> Let me address this for all the people who are insulting their own intelligence with this idiotic hypothetical.
> 
> *People who have gender dysphoria will have exhibited signs THEIR WHOLE LIVES*. Do you *honestly* think that all it would take is going up to your teacher and saying "I'm transgender too!" and that's it, they'd let you use the girl's rooms? Are you, Loudon, Vertigo, and everybody else who can't tell a South Park cartoon from real life honestly that unintelligent? Or have you just not thought this through?
> 
> ...


It's not just for them to sneak a peek at a nipple. It's a bathroom. Where girls are in there without any pants or underwear. They damn sure aren't going in there for just a nipple peek. I still stand by what I said. I don't think that pre op transgenders should be allowed to use bathrooms that belong to the sex they are transitioning to. Especially not at school.


----------



## RiC David (Jun 20, 2006)

Rusty Shackleford said:


> It's not just for them to sneak a peek at a nipple. It's a bathroom. Where girls are in there without any pants or underwear. They damn sure aren't going in there for just a nipple peek. I still stand by what I said. I don't think that pre op transgenders should be allowed to use bathrooms that belong to the sex they are transitioning to. Especially not at school.


I don't know why you focused on the nipple part, that doesn't make a difference: nipple, vagina, it has zero bearing on either of our points or arguments. Okay you don't think any pre-op transgender teen should be allowed in the bathroom of their transitioned gender, please let's follow this through:

Why do you think they should not? You imply that if they're post-op (which they won't be until they're 18) then it's okay so clearly this isn't a pigheaded "boys are boys and that's that, gender dysphoria is bullshit" argument.

In addition to answering the question of *why* they should not, please answer this:

If the problem is that they have a penis, would the solution not be to let them use the room of the gender they're living as *but ask them to cover up their penis while changing?* I've said it already here, I don't like strangers seeing me naked so I wear a towel if I'm changing my underwear--*and I don't know why these high schoolers would even be changing their underwear but for argument's sake*--how is this not a more humane, compassionate solution?


----------



## Decadence (Sep 7, 2015)

I think you people have a way exaggerated view of what goes on in the girls' lockerroom. People aren't walking around with no pants or undies on.

:bryanlol:shockedpunk:tripsscust:Jordan:heston:eyeroll2:denirololkay:nowords:ha:TayL:chlolkay2:HA:dead3:wut:gameoveruttahere:StephenA7:sip:wee-bey:ti:eyeroll:maisielol:haha:uhohavon:goaway:maury:febreeze


----------



## PraXitude (Feb 27, 2014)

No. You are not defined by your impulses. Stop coddling these freaks.


----------



## Paul Rudd (Oct 23, 2010)

The entitled little prick already has a private bathroom. He needs to stop crying, grab on to his still attached balls and man the fuck up.

- Paul.


----------



## GothicBohemian (May 26, 2012)

RE: the topic at hand

The teen featured in the op article is attractive enough to not need bothering to scheme a way into the girl's room - sex with an actual girlfriend would not be the impossible task if catching a glimpse of pussy was the goal. And, eh, unless we have strict religious brainwashing reasons for such, females are not afraid of or repulsed by male anatomy. It's a moot point anyway; most women don't take off their underwear in common locker rooms, they either turn their backs to each other or go into a curtained off spot if the panties are coming down. I say _most_ because it's a little different among girls who frequent locker rooms, such as athletes and dancers, because ain't nobody got time for precious modesty every day of the week. :lol We're talking about high school girls preparing for gym class though, so nonchalant nudity isn't what's going on in that locker room (no steamy lesbian porn in the shared shower area either, sorry to disappoint and crush fantasies). 



QuasiModo said:


> can s/he have a baby? just cause you mutilate your genitals, it dont make you a woman.
> 
> In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act.
> 
> George Orwell


I can't have a baby but I'm 100%, without a doubt, absolutely, undeniably a woman. 



Borias said:


> Now, one day maybe it'll be like Starship Troopers where everyone showers together, but not right now. Not even close. We gotta take some steps first. But it probably won't be widely accepted for a generation or so. (*go ahead and ask your grandparents and most parents how they'd feel about it, and then realize they're likely the ones that would vote on changes*)
> 
> I applaud this individual for wanting better treatment for what is a hard situation, but sometimes you need to not keep pushing after concessions are made for you. This is one of those times.


You know what's really funny? Most older women, one's in their late sixties and up, are, by and large, the most accepting people I meet. Rarely do they talk badly about LGBT in general. I don't know why, exactly; maybe it's that they lived through different social changes than we have, or maybe it's the effect of years giving them perspective on what's important and what isn't, but so many of them are prone to just laugh and then treat folks like, you know, people and not be fussed about little details like gay or trans. I find it fascinating and also troubling because I sometimes wonder if our constant obsession with defining special categories deserving rights isn't making us resent each other, causing us to be the intolerant ones we accuse older generations of being. 



RiC David said:


> GothicBohemian shared a real life story of an intersex child (every person should be a person first and an adjective second, not a noun) born with ambiguous genitalia that was more female than male. The child turned out to be a boy and knew he was a boy as instinctively as _you _know your own gender.


The intersex are a fascinating group who give us a more relatable peek into the world of gender dismorphia. Most of us can accept that a person born with a combination of male and female parts - internally, externally or both - instinctively knows which gender thay are but find it difficult to accept the same from those who are born 'physically normal'.

Caster Semenya is probably the most famous intersex person of recent times. Her condition became apparent in her teens when, as an international junior athletics champion, her noticeably masculine body development and linked running prowess caused her to stand out alongside her female peers. She looked like a young man. While always a sporty, tomboyish child, at no point did she think of herself as a boy and only accepted her condition as real following medical testing.

After treatment, she returned to her sport acknowledged as 100% a woman and carried the flag for South Africa at the 2012 Olympics, where she won a silver medal in the women's 800m. Caster is female. She went through puberty with a different mix of hormones than most girls, and yes, there are traces of that in her build and facial structure, but she is and knows herself as female. 










Social influence plays a role in superficial aspects of gender identity but who we understand ourselves to be doesn't change. I know I'm a woman and that knowledge involves more than looking down and confirming "Yep, I've got a vagina!". I have no first hand experience with gender dismorphia but cases like the above, and the little boy I mentioned previously, make it hard for me to dismiss other people when they say "I know I'm a man, even though when I look down I see that yep, I've still got a vagina, unfortunately." 

Caster's story raises one of the more interesting and controversial topics involving both intersex and post-op trans individuals - Should they be able to compete side-by-side with ordinary women in sports? There's no denying that hormones make a difference to musculoskeletal development. Even if they are using medication to keep their current hormone levels in line with the female norm women who experienced puberty as male will have a somewhat different body composition from other girls. There have been several high profile cases besides Caster's, including Michelle Dumaresq, a female mountain biker who rode for the Canadian national team. 










Unlike Caster, who was born with a mixture of external female/internal male gender physiology, Michelle was born a man. She underwent gender reassignment and hormone therapy six years prior to competing in women's cycling. 

The IOC accepts transsexuals as competitors within their reassigned gender if they are (1) at least 2 years post-op and (2) use hormone treatment to keep their values within the normal range for their chosen gender. There are actually quite a few Olympians and international athletes who began life as either ambiguous or opposite gender, we just don't hear about them except in unusual cases. Both Caster and Michelle - two women whose gender comes under scrutiny for different reasons - have faced discrimination, public embarrassment and even protests from fellow athletes. 

In 2006, this happened at Canadian nationals:










Notice the shirt the girl on the left is wearing. She, with the help of her boyfriend, decided to protest on the podium, which resulted in a off-season ban - basically, she was told "Don't do that!" but with little in terms of real consequences. That's how it is with transgender acceptance; _Ok, do your thing, but do it over there in the corner where we don't have to deal with it and if you do happen to get greedy and act like you belong we'll say all the right things about tolerance but not be too hard on anyone who isn't cool with all this gender-changing stuff, alright? _

We don't have to accept every claim people may make. I could go to the local government licensing office and demand to be legally identified as a hypnofox with water dragon abilities but no one is obliged to take me seriously, nor should they. Transgender is a bit different; where we have evidence, thanks to the intersex population, that gender is more than physical it isn't as easy to dismiss people who genuinely believe themselves to be a gender other than that which they appear to be at first glance.


----------



## FITZ (May 8, 2007)

RiC David said:


> What if they don't have a penis? What if they've undergone a physical sex change (which they won't be allowed to until they're 18)?
> 
> If instead of looking like a boy dressed as a girl, they look like this:
> 
> ...


The fact that 41% of transgender people attempt suicide seems to strengthen the case for all of them having a mental illness.


----------



## TerraRising (Aug 5, 2015)

I... I'm actually a former transgender (mtf) who went back to my sexually appropriate orientation as a guy again. I'm so self-loathing it's not even funny.


----------



## Solf (Aug 24, 2014)

FITZ said:


> The fact that 41% of transgender people attempt suicide seems to strengthen the case for all of them having a mental illness.


Or maybe for people being so sick in their heads they can't bear the though of someone being different without constantly belittling them for whatever reasons they deem fit.


----------



## Slickback (Jun 17, 2015)

What if he's doing this just to perve at the girls, just like that child porn detective who turned out to be a pedophile


----------



## BehindYou (Jun 16, 2011)

Ethically I'm a firm believer in the needs of the many outweighs the needs of the few (or one).

Thereby, I would say that wherever the majority of those directly involved (girls' locker room and the transgender person) feel is the most appropriate place for her to change is where she should.

I don't see why one person should have more rights than 2 or more people.


----------



## Reptilian (Apr 16, 2014)

They should have their own lockeroom, because no matter where they're put, men or women will feel umcomfortable with the presence of those freaks. 

Im glad we don't have them in my country, i would hate to live in the USA.


----------



## From Death Valley (Jan 27, 2015)

Yeah I think they should also get their own locker rooms they will be bullied by dudes in the males ones and the girls would probably feel uncomfortable. At least that how I see it.


----------



## Clique (Sep 9, 2007)

TerraRising said:


> I... I'm actually a former transgender (mtf) who went back to my sexually appropriate orientation as a guy again. I'm so self-loathing it's not even funny.


Ok story but the thread didn't require a bump for this information.


----------

