# why is aew so polarizing?



## MonkasaurusRex (Jul 3, 2016)

All wrestling is polarizing and has been for a long time. At it's core the fanbase has always been like that. As long as the majority of the viewing audience is made up of hardcore fans it will continue to predominantly be that way.


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## Prosper (Mar 25, 2015)

Because people have been so jaded by WWE that anything less than perfect draws negative hyberbole and wrestling PTSD. AEW has its flaws no doubt, but AEW is placed on such a pedestal that every minor detail has to be blown up into something it shouldn't be. When some look at AEW its like AEW has to be perfect or there's nothing left for them as a wrestling fan. So they get pissed when their subjective fantasies don't play out like they want them to. They are under the magnifying glass and will be for a long time as long as they continue to offer up entertaining television.

Popularity draws extremity in opinions both positive and negative. I mean even before, it was the same thing. Even Austin had people ripping him apart on the Internet. People shit all over his heel turn at WM17. Then you had the other side attacking the Austin haters. It's just how wrestling fans are. There's no other fanbase like it.

Then you have the fans that enjoy the product and want to just enjoy themselves and talk about it with other wrestling fans but then have to deal with people who can't enjoy anything no matter how good it may be. So you end up with "wrestling fan" wars. One side just wants to have fun, and the other does too, but they mask their negative extremity under the guise of "I just want the product to be better", when we all know that nothing will satisfy them regardless.

If AEW/WWE booked the perfect show, it would still draw polarity because people only care about what they want to see on their wrestling program.


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## somerandomfan (Dec 13, 2013)

Obsession over "your" side is in all forms of life from politics to game consoles to brands of cars and any thing else out there, wrestling is no different. 

AEW may feel polarizing since this is some of the biggest exposure a "rival" company to WWE has gotten in a decade, it's no monday night wars but it's up there when Impact was pulling a couple million on Spike, there's also the intrigue of bigger name owners and being on TNT. 

This is when fan wars enter the conversation, you have the WWE diehards who don't want something to rival AEW, you have the NJPW fans annoyed some of their favorites jumped ship to start a new company, you have the WWE haters who want something to overthrow them, you have the people who went all in (pun not intended) on AEW and want to defend it to the death even when they mess up, and on the other side of that last coin you have the people who went all in on AEW who complain when they do something slightly wrong who are pissed that their brand isn't being perfect.

Now those aren't all viewers by any stretch of the imagination but those are some of the louder groups, and you can't just shoehorn everyone into those boxes either, like recent example there were plenty of people who loved Blood and Guts but thought the way they filmed Jericho's bump was pretty bad, you can't shove those people in with the same people who thought it ruined the whole match. Problem is (as with anything) the people with the most extreme opinions tend to be the loudest.


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## DaSlacker (Feb 9, 2020)

Partly because people want WWE given a jolt and AEW frustratingly makes a lot of school boy errors to amuse both themselves and the loyal audience yet alienates others. 

Partly because of the belief they should be on at least 1.5 million viewers. 

Others are just WWE marks since childhood and see everything else as inferior. Despite WWE taking advantage of their position to make more money.


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## 5 Star Giulia ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ (Apr 21, 2014)

Prosper said:


> Because people have been so jaded by WWE that anything less than perfect draws negative hyberbole and wrestling PTSD. AEW has its flaws no doubt, but AEW is placed on such a pedestal that every minor detail has to be blown up into something it shouldn't be. When some look at AEW its like AEW has to be perfect or there's nothing left for them as a wrestling fan. So they get pissed when their subjective fantasies don't play out like they want them to. They are under the magnifying glass and will be for a long time as long as they continue to offer up entertaining television.
> 
> Popularity draws extremity in opinions both positive and negative. I mean even before, it was the same thing. Even Austin had people ripping him apart on the Internet. People shit all over his heel turn at WM17. Then you had the other side attacking the Austin haters. It's just how wrestling fans are. There's no other fanbase like it.
> 
> ...


*It has nothing to do with perfection. It's the fact that we were sold a bill of goods in regards to an alternative to awful wrestling, when this is just awful alternative wrestling. I don't expect every booking decision to be game changing, but I also didn't expect blatant stupidity and/or lack of care when it comes to the foundations of professional wrestling. *


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## Chan Hung (Dec 28, 2011)

Well OP, there is a false narrative and a perception that critics hate AEW or 'want it to fail'. Most want it to actually do the opposite. You see, here you have a new company, on a nationally televised show...(we haven't had this in years) with the chance to showcase wrestling as an alternative to the WWE and to really go full speed.

We are told upfront to expect a serious sports like product and then you turn on TNT and the fact is you are shown a young boy celebrating weekly with a group of 10 jobbers in a mask, a Japanese guy with a laptop running around aimlessly, a short stacked geek dancing cringe who hangs with 2 potential tag teams, pretty much the entire cast of referees who stopped giving a shit about any rules that they were supposedly trying to enforce and make their promotion seem serious, repeated run ins after every match, nobody completing a promo without being interrupted, ..i can go on and on...The BOTTOM LINE is however, this can all be fixed, and avoided but the buck stops with Tony Khan. So yes, the company can fix their errors but the buck stops with Tony Khan. Nothing wrong with little comedy but there's just a lot of embarrasing stuff happening often that can be easily remedied, we dont want segments where we can envision R Truth being a part of.


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## DammitChrist (Apr 3, 2016)

If critics *really* want the company to succeed, then many of them should really start acting like it instead of gloating or celebrating whenever they dip in viewers and whenever they have a (minor) slip-up.


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## Ghost Lantern (Apr 11, 2012)

Because it's just a trainwreck of what we need and what we hate.

On one hand it is exactly the kind of in your face rebellion we need. Give us great talent, who have charisma. Let them do their own unscripted interviews. Screw backstage politics.

On the other hand it's so poorly written and we get all the wrong results. We get insulting gimmicks and just gosh awful theatrics.

Just my opinion. AEW should be kicking Vince's 90 year old butt. However they are not.


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## adamclark52 (Nov 27, 2015)

For me personally it’s because they used Ring of Honor as a platform to get themselves over in North America and then bailed without giving RoH so much as a reach around. Now mind you a big part of the problem also lays on RoH for allowing that to happen in the first place. But watching RoH for the last half of 2018 and up to today has been sad. Some people will tell you it’s gotten better but first there was all of WWEs poaching and then AEW took a lot with them when they left too.

AEW attributed to the hole RoH is in right now. I despise WWE for the same reasons.


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## PhenomenalOne11 (Oct 2, 2016)

DammitChrist said:


> If critics *really* want the company to succeed, then many of them should really start acting like it instead of gloating or celebrating whenever they dip in viewers and whenever they have a (minor) slip-up.


How would you suggest they start acting like it then? I wouldn't call it celebrating at all, it's pure frustration that a company with all the tools in the world to be a genuine threat to the shit WWE have fed people for over 20 years continues to fuck up their momentum and not capitalise on their opportunities.


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## KrysRaw1 (Jun 18, 2019)

There's more ups than downs but it's because the downs are really bad


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## Chrome (Jan 11, 2012)

Basically what @Prosper said lol. Also @DaSlacker made a good point about the WWE fans. For me, it seems like whatever company is the perceived #2 atm is the bane of WWE stooges' existence. 10 years ago it was TNA, now they don't give a shit about them(although they're starting to again ironically enough), then it was ROH/NJPW in the mid 2010's when they were hot, and of course now it's AEW they can't stop talking about.


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## the44boz (Apr 29, 2014)

PushCrymeTyme said:


> never before has there been this much vitriol for a new wrestling promotion in its infancy.......what makes aew a hotbed for indignation that was never seen before for any other rival wwe company ?


Big money backers and fans believe a viable challenge to Vince's monopoly of the wrestling industry. AEW is pretty much the Savior to the Anti Christ which is WWE.


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## Prosper (Mar 25, 2015)

BOSS of Bel-Air said:


> *It has nothing to do with perfection. It's the fact that we were sold a bill of goods in regards to an alternative to awful wrestling, when this is just awful alternative wrestling. I don't expect every booking decision to be game changing, but I also didn't expect blatant stupidity and/or lack of care when it comes to the foundations of professional wrestling. *


This is what I mean by extremity. You speak like AEW is objectively awful but it's just an opinion you happen to have. I'm assuming that the "lack of care" you're talking about is in regards to the obvious elephants in the room?

AEW has its own universe. You call it lack of care when a referee doesn't call a DQ when he "should", but I just call it booking a match different from traditional means. I mean do you really care if they are on the outside for more than a 10 count or when Cody uses his belt mid-match? Is it really that deep? Of course not. It's entertainment my guy. A lot of you perceive things in a particular way because it's always been that way or you perceive in a way it "should be" and all it does in the end is hurt what should be organic or natural enjoyment. Stop putting the company in the box of what you think it should be based off of personal nostalgia. Open your mind to new formats. Just go with the flow or tune out forever. This is the way AEW is. If what you were sold isn't satisfying then return the product.

You call it "lack of psychology" when someone hits a Destroyer and kicks out or a tragedy when work rate is held to a high regard, but I just look at it as a different form of wrestling. There is enough selling going on to satisfy the normal fan. You have your idea of how professional wrestling should be and they have theirs. And it's working out pretty damn well for them. Their idea of how they want to book the show not aligning with tradition doesn't automatically make it "awful".

You say you want intergender wrestling and for Jade Cargill to pin men. Would that not be subjectively considered "awful" to most wrestling fans on a higher level than what you say is awful??


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## Botchy SinCara (Apr 24, 2013)

Same reason a guy like omega who made a name for himself outside of wwe is polarized ..wwe elites can't imagine anything outside their bubble and feel threatened


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## toontownman (Jan 25, 2009)

Anyone that dislikes WWE puts it up on a pedestal as its the great hope to change the business and likewise so does AEW, when they inevitably fail they alienate fans and make themselves look silly.

I think it's jarring to some also due to the conditioning of what wrestling is and should look like in terms of camera shots, production, presentation. I think it looks cheap and tacky in comparison to WWE. It's not that bad, lots is done well but it is different and naturally on a smaller budget and experience level of staffing.

For me it's also the arrogance and lack of class that grates. I know thats what got WCW over WWE but that was a different time, I don't want a carbon copy of WCW and would rather they simply concentrate on themselves and stay classy. If they weren't so outwardly cocky and arrogant trying to throw digs at WWE every two minutes I would be much more inclined to watch.


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## The Raw Smackdown (Jan 8, 2017)

Prosper said:


> This is what I mean by extremity. You speak like AEW is objectively awful but it's just an opinion you happen to have. I'm assuming that the "lack of care" you're talking about is in regards to the obvious elephants in the room?
> 
> AEW has its own universe. You call it lack of care when a referee doesn't call a DQ when he "should", but I just call it booking a match different from traditional means. I mean do you really care if they are on the outside for more than a 10 count or when Cody uses his belt mid-match? Is it really that deep? Of course not. It's entertainment my guy. A lot of you perceive things in a particular way because it's always been that way or you perceive in a way it "should be" and all it does in the end is hurt what should be organic or natural enjoyment. Stop putting the company in the box of what you think it should be based off of personal nostalgia. Open your mind to new formats. Just go with the flow or tune out forever. This is the way AEW is. If what you were sold isn't satisfying then return the product.
> 
> ...


Oh my god...you better fucking PREACH.


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## Dr. Jones (Jan 3, 2012)

People like Meltzer and Alvarez don't help by gloating all over everything AEW does then treating WWE like everything they do is shit. If WWE did that MJF/Jericho song and dance musical number, Meltzer would've shit all over it claiming that "it's just not something that wrestling fans want to see". But because it was AEW/Jericho, it was pure gold and absolutely hilarious.

Stop telling us that this is some ground breaking television that is making a huge dent in things. It's just not. They have made a little noise and have gained some momentum at some points, but this is not great television. Mid 1997 WWF was great television that set the stage for several years down the line.


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## One Shed (Jan 7, 2014)

Because we have seen about 15 years now of WWE catering to children and when we see the actual possibility of another company with the proper financial backing come along to do something about that but give us WWE Lite crap like Marko and cheap knockoff versions of Santino like Trashidy, we realize AEW is likely to just be alternative WWE.


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## THE_OD (Nov 21, 2016)

Apple vs Android. Playstation vs Xbox. Sports teams Etc. People find stupid sh*t to fight over all the time.
We are very good at picking a side and defending it at all costs.


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## yeahbaby! (Jan 27, 2014)

PushCrymeTyme said:


> never before has there been this much vitriol for a new wrestling promotion in its infancy.......what makes aew a hotbed for indignation that was never seen before for any other rival wwe company ?


Be careful of making this assumption based only on what you're reading on this forum is all I'll say. There's a whole world out there.

On topic though I agree with @BOSS of Bel-Air that expectations were not met which really sucked. I was really hoping for a completely different style of presentation than WWE. Take that however you want it but it just seems like they're basically imitating it which is a huge letdown. What it does have on WWE however is the top talent in AEW overall I find more entertaining than their counterparts in WWE.


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## Ghost Lantern (Apr 11, 2012)

THE_OD said:


> Apple vs Android. Playstation vs Xbox. Sports teams Etc. People find stupid sh*t to fight over all the time.
> We are very good at picking a side and defending it at all costs.


No offense but I don't think that's apples to apples.

AEW is the shiny new toy with a network behind it and a groundswell of support. WWE is the old guard who has had a monopoly for years. They are not two equal products.

They appeal to two different crowds completely.


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## The Raw Smackdown (Jan 8, 2017)

I don't think its polarizing. I just think that some people had this unrealistic, delusional idea at the beginning that AEW was gonna topple WWE and Vince was gonna go down in flames and usher in some new wrestling boom(and some people still think this too...lmao)..and when that didn't happen people got pissy and started being negative because what they wanted to happen and what they wanted AEW to be in their minds didn't pan out so now they just bitch and nitpick because it's not what they thought it was going to be and they can stand when other people like it because they want to like but they don't allow themselves to because they get too caught up in the petty shit..like there was this big issue that during Broken Matt's cinematic match Private Party was seen in a flashing quick moment and they weren't supposed to be show at the point that they were seen, or Big Swole Talking shit to one of the male wrestlers. Like does any of that really matter? No.

And they maks their disdain with "wanting to be better"..that's bullshit. Like Someone said if AEW did the best show on earth people STILL complain. There never gonna be happy because again. What they wanted to happen didnt. And it was never gonna happen either because it wasn't realistic.

But there are others who have their issues with AEW but are reasonable about where they are and what they can do for wrestling in 2021, people who just enjoy it for what it is and several other fans in between just like anything else with entertainment.


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## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

Some people think it is good, others think it is everything that prevents wrestling from being good. And when it comes to fan tribalism, the people who proclaim it as great are wicked annoying to the people who don’t like it. And the people who don’t like it are WWE fanboys to the people who do, even if they don’t like WWE either.


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## Geert Wilders (Jan 18, 2021)

it is polarising like any other thing that could have a fanbase. The product has some good values, many bad. Anything that could have fans will have a strong and dedicated fanbase that will love anything it puts out. That is expected. 

However, some people shit on AEW just to shit on it. They will act like they dislike WWE, but you can see them post regularly in those sections. You know who you are.


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## Ger (Jul 20, 2018)

> why is aew so polarizing?


They are not really that polarizing, the reaction on the criticism on IWC places is just different. Many people want to put criticism on the show and just talk about it, like they did before with other companies. Other fans on IWC totally freak out about that, because they act, like AEW would be the holy grail.


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## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

Prosper said:


> Because people have been so jaded by WWE that anything less than perfect draws negative hyberbole and wrestling PTSD. AEW has its flaws no doubt, but AEW is placed on such a pedestal that every minor detail has to be blown up into something it shouldn't be. When some look at AEW its like AEW has to be perfect or there's nothing left for them as a wrestling fan. So they get pissed when their subjective fantasies don't play out like they want them to. They are under the magnifying glass and will be for a long time as long as they continue to offer up entertaining television.
> 
> Popularity draws extremity in opinions both positive and negative. I mean even before, it was the same thing. Even Austin had people ripping him apart on the Internet. People shit all over his heel turn at WM17. Then you had the other side attacking the Austin haters. It's just how wrestling fans are. There's no other fanbase like it.
> 
> ...


all of this

its just what it is -added to this in any niche hobby i always find any purist fancies themselves a bit of an expert, and could also do the job if they just had the time / money / opportunity

so - from that starting viewpoint, finding fault rather than having fun is not difficult - and where you get a lot of the ‘armchair coaching; statements of ‘his booking is horrible’ and so on and so forth

hell.... i was like that with comics for awhile in the 90s


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## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

Prosper said:


> This is what I mean by extremity. You speak like AEW is objectively awful but it's just an opinion you happen to have. I'm assuming that the "lack of care" you're talking about is in regards to the obvious elephants in the room?
> 
> AEW has its own universe. You call it lack of care when a referee doesn't call a DQ when he "should", but I just call it booking a match different from traditional means. I mean do you really care if they are on the outside for more than a 10 count or when Cody uses his belt mid-match? Is it really that deep? Of course not. It's entertainment my guy. A lot of you perceive things in a particular way because it's always been that way or you perceive in a way it "should be" and all it does in the end is hurt what should be organic or natural enjoyment. Stop putting the company in the box of what you think it should be based off of personal nostalgia. Open your mind to new formats. Just go with the flow or tune out forever. This is the way AEW is. If what you were sold isn't satisfying then return the product.
> 
> ...


it’s been 2 years - they’ve very much established in their ‘universe’ what is allowed

smacking with a belt in a heated match won’t get you the DQ - hell that happened basically in the first week

if by now people don’t see the context of AEW’s rules, they are just not paying attention - that is not the companies’ fault - that is the fault of the fan believing WWE’s rules should apply to the whole wrestling world

AEW employs more a NJPW rule set - ie> lackadaisical application of the basic rules, depending on the ref who is also a human - and that is actually...... sports-like  - ask anybody who watches any sport about the refs


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## thorn123 (Oct 10, 2019)

People want AEW to replicate the industry from what they experienced in their formative years. Yet they don’t realise/remember/recognise there were just as many faults back then.

People want a 10/10 product. Never happened.

Just sit back and enjoy. Don’t take it so serious.


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## the_flock (Nov 23, 2016)

Frustration mainly. 

People were desperate for a new WCW, a new company who could take WWE to the brink and challenge them every week, force them to make mistakes, force them to change their product and create some excitement. They wanted to essentially recreate the Monday Night Wars and they wanted an alternative product to watch. 

You had a billionaires son in charge who stated he had no interest in being an on-air personality, lived through the attitude era. Cody smashing Triple H's throne with a sledgehammer, signalling War. Cody and Jericho telling the world that they weren't going to be a WWE lite product and would only be bringing in 4 or 5 names from WWE. They were going to develop their own talent. They weren't going to be PG. They had a good TV deal. 

People were genuinely excited. Then it all went to shit from the very first show. Aside from Moxley, their exclusive club turned in to, we're going to sign everyone who is released. They fucked up developing new talent from the offset. They took too long bringing in a midcard title. They fucked up the Women's division by pushing Kennys girlfriend, despite the fact she had commitments elsewhere. The tag division has been awful, and that was a real chance to hit a nail in WWE's coffin as their tag division wasn't great at the time. 

You had Cody knocking classic promos out the park for fun and was clearly the most over star in the company, but then you add a stipulation which says he can't win the world title. What did they actually gain from that? You had some wonderful indie talent who were then squandered and weighed down by the influx of shite from WWE. The product comes across as Indie shite. You have legends of the industry telling them to sort their shit out and they just label them haters and ignore them. You have legends of the industry actually offering their services to help them and you have The Bucks telling them to piss off. You have Meltzer claiming everything is perfect and every match is a 5 star classic just because he a on the payroll. 

The owner is now featuring in promos, despite the fact he said he wouldn't, there's clips of him online where he looks like a massive geek and everything he does is cringeworthy as fuck. 

Now they're in a war with a promotion which has an audience of about 10 people. It's just chaotic and shite. 

I was genuinely excited when it came out and watched about 12 episodes with sheer excitement until I realised it was just another mundane, run of the mill WWE lite product. Unfortunately AEW has a hardcore fan base which defend absolutely everything and abuse anyone who doesn't like it.


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## Chasingamymatt (Mar 24, 2014)

Because wrestling fans (very generalising!) think they always know how to book a promotion. When AEW was announced all those jaded with WWE assumed it would be booked perfectly and every storyline and match would live up to what they had in their head.

AEW is what it is, some great stuff some very poor but anyone who expected a start up company to be anything other than uneven for years while its finding its feet was living in Ultimate Warrior lala land.

Same old same old, if you like it fine enjoy the shows, if not dont watch it but also dont moan because XYZ isnt happening.


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## validreasoning (Jul 4, 2012)

Chrome said:


> Basically what @Prosper said lol. Also @DaSlacker made a good point about the WWE fans. For me, it seems like whatever company is the perceived #2 atm is the bane of WWE stooges' existence. 10 years ago it was TNA, now they don't give a shit about them(although they're starting to again ironically enough), then it was ROH/NJPW in the mid 2010's when they were hot, and of course now it's AEW they can't stop talking about.


I guess using your logic TNA fans no longer care about TNA given I don't see them all over forums and chat sites like were 10-15 years. Little saying "Out of sight, out of mind". Once TNA lost their national TV deal with Spike people stopped caring.

This is the real problem WCW/TNA/AEW hardcores care (at the time) too much what "WWE fans" think. The reality is most WWE fans don't care, most don't care about anything but the odd thing in WWE. WWE fans have never even cared about fucking WWE midcard so you really expect them to care about another promotion with 1/10th the market share?

That group of fans I mentioned are so hung up on how their favourite promotion is perceived by those that don't love everything. Why does it fucking matter. TNA fans were so obsessed with this shit they started TNA mecca and other crazy sites so that needed for better word a space space echo chamber to shield their tv show from criticism.


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## Geert Wilders (Jan 18, 2021)

validreasoning said:


> Once TNA lost their national TV deal with Spike people stopped caring.


I believe that TNA lost their spike deal because people stopped caring. Not the other way around.


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## rbl85 (Nov 21, 2017)

Geert Wilders said:


> I believe that TNA lost their spike deal because people stopped caring. Not the other way around.


It was more complicated than that


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## validreasoning (Jul 4, 2012)

Geert Wilders said:


> I believe that TNA lost their spike deal because people stopped caring. Not the other way around.


No they lost their tv deal because they liked to tv network about employng Vince Russo. TNA was still averaging above the prime time average when cancelled

Getting back to topic on hand. Pro wrestling fans online have been ultra negative since I started and long before that on wrestling sheets etc so why are people surprised that a pro wrestling company gets some negative reaction by those same fans?

AEW gets maybe 1% the hate and abuse that WWE gets. Has there been any public campaigns so far to boycott AEW like there was Raw? Has anyone gone to advertisers of AEW to get one of their wrestlers thrown off something, has anyone in AEW received the abuse online that Roman Reigns got for winning a match?


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## Mike E (Feb 7, 2020)

It's polarizing because everyone has an opinion. Some people like it, some people don't like it. All of that is fine, I think the problem starts to show when some people think their opinion trumps others. I do enjoy everyone's perspectives on AEW. I just wish the pages after pages of arguing wouldn't be so prevalent. I think at A certain point you got to stop and say, I'm not going to change this individuals opinion.


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## Freelancer (Aug 24, 2010)

Wrestling has always been polarizing. Basically every fan is a mark for something, and craps on everything else.

It's like professional sports. You root for your home team and crap on everything else.


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## Chris22 (Jan 7, 2010)

Because perfection is an illusion and everyone can jump onto Twitter and be a critic.


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## Wolf Mark (Jun 5, 2020)

Some AEW fans should stop with all the victimization bullshit. Oh no someone is saying sometthing bad about my favorite promotion, this is the end of the World, people are out to get us! 

I know I was exactly like that years ago when I watched TNA and I was a fan of this company. People saying things about them felt like a hit to the chest. But nowadays I look back and I realise that I had this follower of a cult mentality and that the critics were right!


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## 3venflow (Feb 3, 2019)

DaveRA said:


> People want AEW to replicate the industry from what they experienced in their formative years. Yet they don’t realise/remember/recognise there were just as many faults back then.


And they contradict themselves.


want sports-based
complain when AEW has long no-bullshit matches without an elaborate storyline


want a successor to WCW
complain when Japanese stars who 'no one knows' appear, when WCW had guys like Nagata and Gedo appear


complain that AEW isn't what they were promised
ignore the existence of ROH, NOAH and MLW who might be closer to what they expected to focus their efforts on hating AEW

It is an alternative, just not the alternative they (or even I) expected. And rather than enjoy what it is OR move on to something they like (even if it means digging into the Network archives), they continue to devote hours of their life to this.

Hey, we'd all love a promotion tailored to our personal needs. I have great ideas for a new promotion and my ideal AEW! But other people would think it'd suck. There's something for everyone in pro wrestling, even if you have to go and watch indies, but this is a unique community where people seem to enjoy being made miserable.

It's not perfect, it's not awful. It has good shit and bad shit. Hey, that sounds like every promotion ever. The main difference now is we don't have the mega-stars on top that make us forget some of the other crap.


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## Wolf Mark (Jun 5, 2020)

3venflow said:


> And they contradict themselves.
> 
> 
> want sports-based
> ...


1. "sport-based" doesn't mean long, boring spot-fest with many kickouts

2. WCW fans never cared about Japanese talent other than Great Muta

3. ROH and MLW are not major promotions


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## 5 Star Giulia ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ (Apr 21, 2014)

Prosper said:


> AEW has its own universe. You call it lack of care when a referee doesn't call a DQ when he "should", but I just call it booking a match different from traditional means. I mean do you really care if they are on the outside for more than a 10 count or when Cody uses his belt mid-match? Is it really that deep? Of course not. It's entertainment my guy. A lot of you perceive things in a particular way because it's always been that way or you perceive in a way it "should be" and all it does in the end is hurt what should be organic or natural enjoyment. Stop putting the company in the box of what you think it should be based off of personal nostalgia. Open your mind to new formats. Just go with the flow or tune out forever. This is the way AEW is. If what you were sold isn't satisfying then return the product.


*You have no idea what you're talking about. Expecting 100 year old rules to be followed isn't nostalgia. Expecting referees to do their jobs properly isn't nostalgia. Expecting basic ring psychology and selling isn't nostalgia. You're the type of person that thinks if they replace basketball hoops with soccer goals everyone should be okay with it because "times change." No, that's not how the game works. There's no point in having referees if they're going to blatantly ignore rules. Every match should be no disqualification because Tony Khan has explicitly told us on multiple occasions that no one's getting disqualified, no matter how much egregious shit they do in the ring.*



> You call it "lack of psychology" when someone hits a Destroyer and kicks out or a tragedy when work rate is held to a high regard, but I just look at it as a different form of wrestling. There is enough selling going on to satisfy the normal fan. You have your idea of how professional wrestling should be and they have theirs. And it's working out pretty damn well for them. Their idea of how they want to book the show not aligning with tradition doesn't automatically make it "awful".


*
A Kurt Angle and Chris Benoit series is workrate. Fenix and the Young Bucks running around in circles, no selling, and doing a random sequence of moves with no logic is not fucking workrate. *



> You say you want intergender wrestling and for Jade Cargill to pin men. Would that not be subjectively considered "awful" to most wrestling fans on a higher level than what you say is awful??


*You excuse every idiotic thing AEW does and say "it's just entertainment" but a woman built better than 90% of the male roster is where you draw the line? Nope. Keep that same energy. If you complain, you are now an extremist that hates everything about wrestling. That's how your flawed logic works.*


----------



## RapShepard (Jun 20, 2014)

Because of the fan base. Before it even ran a show folk had decided it was the new best promotion. The Elites fan base can be highly annoying and that naturally transferred over to AEW. AEW isn't the trash show some fans act like. But it isn't the borderline god tier show putting on MotY contenders on a weekly basis either.


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## 3venflow (Feb 3, 2019)

Wolf Mark said:


> 1. "sport-based" doesn't mean long, boring spot-fest with many kickouts
> 
> 2. WCW fans never cared about Japanese talent other than Great Muta
> 
> 3. ROH and MLW are not major promotions


1. So what does it mean to you and point us to the historical examples of what you want. AEW presents its titles better and more sports-like than almost any company in the world right now (and unlike most on here, I actually do watch most of the well known promotions in the world to some degree) and at least makes an effort to have wins and losses matter. And we still get complaints about long title reigns.

It's like you can't please everyone, going back to my original point. One man's trash is another man's treasure. If they put on the product YOU want, the knock-on effect would then be that others would be turned off it. Therefore, the solution is to find something you like because no matter how much your ego wants it, they're not going to perfectly tailor their product for you or I.

Even New Japan is less and less sports-based these days and doing goofy shit like the Americans.

MLW, which has an ESPN-like presentation, recently raised a luchador from the dead and has just brought in an (awesome) actor playing the same character who was shot to death in Lucha Underground.

2. WCW fans and fans in general in the 90s weren't as entitled as they are now and could enjoy undercard shit knowing they would get their Sting and nWo fill later on. Lots of random matches without storylines got good pops, such as the luchadores from Mexico. Ratings would stay strong even through all these matches too.

WCW had way more random, meaningless matches than today's AEW yet there were far fewer complaints (I know, I was on the internet from 97). Fans complain these days about matches on free TV you used to have to pay 50 bucks for.

3. They are still promotions with good rosters and good production values, so what does it matter if they offer what you want? Do you only want promotions that can attract 5,000-plus crowds? MLW just got a second TV deal and are upscaling their roster. They have big league talents like Fatu and Hammerstone. They are a product that can be followed quite easily, but finding a product you might enjoy is just too easy innit?


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## Geeee (Aug 9, 2010)

If we're just talking about wrestlingforums, there was a group of Aussies that only had negative things to say, who posted at a frequency that no one else could keep up with, that drove away all the positive posters. Generally, I think the reaction to AEW is positive elsewhere.

I suppose Reddit has a system where negative discourse is hidden from view with downvotes


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## One Shed (Jan 7, 2014)

validreasoning said:


> AEW gets maybe 1% the hate and abuse that WWE gets. Has there been any public campaigns so far to boycott AEW like there was Raw? Has anyone gone to advertisers of AEW to get one of their wrestlers thrown off something, has anyone in AEW received the abuse online that Roman Reigns got for winning a match?


100% accurate.


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## Prized Fighter (Aug 31, 2016)

Some people can't understand why some people enjoy the product
Some people can't understand why some people are so critical

It really isn't much deeper than that. Whenever you have a big enough thing worth discussing, you will always have people in war over what it should be. Politics, tv shows, music, etc. Hell, there were people bitching out Kris Statlander on Twitter for posting a photo of her shoes. I also think there is this inaccurate belief that everyone is part of specific groups. Those who criticize the product tend to think that everyone who argues with them is a fanboy, while those who enjoy the product think every criticism is coming from haters. The actually is that most people are somewhere in the middle. People fall into a trap where if a person disagrees with them on one issue, they can agree with that person on other issues.

With that said, there are some trolls that are on this forum, but most of them are easily ignored or banned quickly, so it's not a big deal. I also don't mean negative trolls, I mean the overly positive ones too. There is only one person on this forum that I think argues in bad faith, but for the sake of not detailing the topic, I will keep that name to myself.


----------



## Wolf Mark (Jun 5, 2020)

3venflow said:


> 1. So what does it mean to you and point us to the historical examples of what you want. AEW presents its titles better and more sports-like than almost any company in the world right now (and unlike most on here, I actually do watch most of the well known promotions in the world to some degree) and at least makes an effort to have wins and losses matter. And we still get complaints about long title reigns.
> 
> It's like you can't please everyone, going back to my original point. One man's trash is another man's treasure. If they put on the product YOU want, the knock-on effect would then be that others would be turned off it. Therefore, the solution is to find something you like because no matter how much your ego wants it, they're not going to perfectly tailor their product for you or I.


Well I would think sometthing more sport-based, the whole presentation would have to be reimagined like it's a real sport. The TNT matches with Cody were close to that. But do it company-wide. And have the commentators be more on point(I believe JR is actually too old to do something like that now). Actually do a genuine standing of the wins and losses. Similar to the TNA Bound for Glory series they used to do but the whole year. Really present everything like it's real, no comedy. That is an example. 

That said, personally I never said I wanted AEW to be sport-based. But if they wanted to really do it, they could.



> 2. WCW fans and fans in general in the 90s weren't as entitled as they are now and could enjoy undercard shit knowing they would get their Sting and nWo fill later on. Lots of random matches without storylines got good pops, such as the luchadores from Mexico. Ratings would stay strong even through all these matches too.
> 
> WCW had way more random, meaningless matches than today's AEW yet there were far fewer complaints (I know, I was on the internet from 97). Fans complain these days about matches on free TV you used to have to pay 50 bucks for.


Right, there was a lot fillers and like there were these multi-men luchadore matches sometime which I didn't care much about. But the talent level in WCW was just another level. They had a lot of guys that knew how to work. We cannot really compare the two companies. But the most important thing is that the matches were kept short. 



> 3. They are still promotions with good rosters and good production values, so what does it matter if they offer what you want? Do you only want promotions that can attract 5,000-plus crowds? MLW just got a second TV deal and are upscaling their roster. They have big league talents like Fatu and Hammerstone. They are a product that can be followed quite easily, but finding a product you might enjoy is just too easy innit?


Not speaking about me but I think people wanted a major promotion, they wanted to watch big time wrestling. Personally the product more to my taste was NWA Powerrr when it was on You Tube. They were so many on point has far as drawing you win and delivering good promos. Their angle were just well done put together. I enjoyed them well enough but they are thinny and it's not the sort of promotion you can have good debates about wrestling cause then you only talk with two people. 

When I criticizes AEW, it's not because I want them to be like the NWA. I just want them to be better at certain things. Like not doing repetition. But they have been better at that lately.


----------



## RapShepard (Jun 20, 2014)

3venflow said:


> 1. So what does it mean to you and point us to the historical examples of what you want. AEW presents its titles better and more sports-like than almost any company in the world right now (and unlike most on here, I actually do watch most of the well known promotions in the world to some degree) and at least makes an effort to have wins and losses matter. And we still get complaints about long title reigns.
> 
> It's like you can't please everyone, going back to my original point. One man's trash is another man's treasure. If they put on the product YOU want, the knock-on effect would then be that others would be turned off it. Therefore, the solution is to find something you like because no matter how much your ego wants it, they're not going to perfectly tailor their product for you or I.
> 
> ...


And this is part of the reason they get hate. Nobody told them to say "they'd present a sports based presentation". They said it people would like them to live up to it. The things they brought in they don't even use properly. They got A ranking system, yet pretty much all title matches come from eliminator matches which pretty much negates the need for rankings. The rankings also have no rhyme or reason. In the beginning the used "degree of difficulty" as an excuse to explain Darby getting a title shot over Pac, who had recently beat Page and Omega. 

Then what makes the titles presented so well. The TNT title for the most part is rarely in a story. The women's title is pretty much not ever in a story. Tag belts have spent most of the Bucks run not having a story. Where's this great title presentation outside the world title, which has been trapped in the same feud since December and is now getting switched to a quick filler feud for 1 of their 4 PPVs. That's bad title booking. 

Finally pointing out stupid shit other promotions do, doesn't absolve AEWs stupid shit. It just proves they're not much different than some claim to be, despite being fairly enjoyable


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## Geeee (Aug 9, 2010)

I think in general, people just have vastly different tastes. For example, I've heard just as many complaints that AEW has too much of a focus on in-ring action and AEW has not enough focus on in-ring action


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## 3venflow (Feb 3, 2019)

RapShepard said:


> And this is part of the reason they get hate. Nobody told them to say "they'd present a sports based presentation".


If people read the quote they would see what Khan's interpretation of sports-based meant. Even if he hasn't fully adhered to it, AEW is closer to *his* perception of it than many choose to believe.

“We’re going to provide, a serious, sport-based product with the best wrestling. Something you’re going to notice more and more in our shows is they’re going to take place in and around the ring. Like, we’re not going to go out of the arena, we’re not going to spend half the show backstage in dressing rooms, or backstage choreographed segments."

In that sense, he has stayed quite true to it. There is a clear focus on in-ring athletic competition every week, and we often get complaints about that. The limited number of backstage segments per episode compared to the competition where you might have the same guy in three segments walking around backstage. AEW has its camera pointed at the ring more often than not, even if it is a schmozz involving factions.

I'd still like to hear WHAT people think sports-based is. The only example in America I can think of is ROH, a product I enjoy. But if you put that interpretation of sports-based on national TV, it's a disaster waiting to happen. It's light storylines and matches, it's very basic personas. It's NXT with even less glitz and more focus on technique.



> They got A ranking system, yet pretty much all title matches come from eliminator matches which pretty much negates the need for rankings. The rankings also have no rhyme or reason. In the beginning the used "degree of difficulty" as an excuse to explain Darby getting a title shot over Pac, who had recently beat Page and Omega.


I have issues with the rankings system and the eliminator matches (at least next week's is #1 vs. #2) that bypass it, moreso on the men's side, but its very presence is still an example of them trying to present something more sports-like than WWE. They count wins and losses too. This is something that even the Japanese promotions don't really do. JR recently mentioning Darby breaking Cody's defense record is another example. It's a small thing but shows that there is at least some attention to detail.

The women's rankings have been fully logical lately in contrast to the men's. Tay Conti's challenge was completely based around the rankings rather than any personal beef with Shida. Britt went to Dark to lift herself up the rankings and after Conti lost to Shida, they presented her replacing Conti as number one as a visual on the big screen. It's the best usage of rankings I've seen in AEW.

AEW's presentation of titles is more in line with sports than near enough any other promotion in the world. There is no perfect logic, there never is in pro wrestling where inconsistencies are common and the writing is quite low level. But when a title changes hands in AEW, it means something. And that's the litmus test. Even the TNT title, which doesn't follow the normal rules because it's a TV title like the old WCW version (where AA would face Macho Man one week and a literal jobber the next), is now a belt that means something and has helped elevate Darby.


----------



## One Shed (Jan 7, 2014)

3venflow said:


> If people read the quote they would see what Khan's interpretation of sports-based meant. Even if he hasn't fully adhered to it, AEW is closer to *his* perception of it than many choose to believe.
> 
> “We’re going to provide, a serious, sport-based product with the best wrestling. Something you’re going to notice more and more in our shows is they’re going to take place in and around the ring. Like, we’re not going to go out of the arena, we’re not going to spend half the show backstage in dressing rooms, or backstage choreographed segments."
> 
> ...


I hear you on the last part, I really do. I also do not want guys just having matches with no story, but that is a lot of what the WCW undercard was. There is a place for that sometimes in the lower card,

For me, a big part of what makes a sports-based product is physical moves having physics-based consequences and not looking overly choreographed. Having guys pop up after moves that should keep them down for a bit (lack of selling), spamming moves (everything the Bucks do), and having multiple guys who are supposed to be fighting cluster around to catch a guy diving takes me way out of a match. That does not make me HATE dives either. There are people who actually know how to do all that stuff and not make it look fake.


----------



## Garty (Jul 29, 2007)

the_flock said:


> Frustration mainly.
> 
> People were desperate for a new WCW, a new company who could take WWE to the brink and challenge them every week, force them to make mistakes, force them to change their product and create some excitement. They wanted to essentially recreate the Monday Night Wars and they wanted an alternative product to watch.
> 
> ...


With everything you've said here, you're basing your opinion as fact, on only watching 12 episodes?! Three months out of roughly twenty? Really?!

Let's go through some of your points:

Everyone WWE released was signed and "promised" only 4 or 5 would be signed. That was last year, when WWE held their, now annual, "purge" of talent. You'd be a pretty bad owner/businessman not to "break a promise", of signing some of the talent released at that time. Should they not sign Samoa Joe, or as impossible as it may seem, potentially Bryan Danielson?
Riho did have commitments to STARDOM, but was signed to AEW. She wasn't around (as was almost all talent living outside of North America), due to this thing, you may have heard about... CV-19?
The tag-team division is what set them apart from WWE. Say what you will of other divisions in the company, but the AEW tag division, is second to none.
Well, Cody not going after, or fighting for, the AEW Championship has worked out thus far, has it not? There's no lie or "broken promise" there.
They were always going to be a TV-14 product.
You mention the "wonderful indie talent squandered by WWE rejects", but then in the next sentence, said, "the product comes across as indie shit". Were they "indie shit" before or after WWE rejects arrived?
I take it that you also believe that Jim Cornette knows "how to fix" AEW? His 40 year-old philosophies and his 40 year-old career, are whey he's sitting on the outside looking in. I'm the first to admit that he knows his wrestling history inside and out, but that's where the buck immediately stops.
Dave Meltzer is not on AEW's payroll. If you'd actually listen to his opinions, he very much prefers Japanese wrestling and other than Japanese wrestling itself, AEW uses/borrows some of those Japanese traits and styles. It is a very easy connection to make.
Tony Khan and Tony Schiavone were in promos advertising AEW Dynamite on TNT on AXS-TV on IMPACT (I'll give you the one time he appeared on DARK), to further the storyline of Omega's conquest towards taking the IMPACT Championship away from the company. Now that that goal has been been accomplished, he no longer appears on IMPACT.
NXT was moved from Wednesday nights, to Tuesday nights 4 weeks ago and AEW has now averaged between 1.0 million to 1.2 million viewers. In that same breath, NXT ratings have also slightly increased.

You've either read for months and agreed with other non-fans, or you just don't watch the product. You can't form an opinion, on something you've barely watched, or only read about on the internet. That's like saying I can be a dentist because I learned from Dr. Britt Baker, D.M.D. whenever she's been on Dynamite, or PPV.


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## rbl85 (Nov 21, 2017)

The problem is nobody is really neutral talking about AEW. 

The people who hate the WWE will always say that everything AEW is doing is good 
The people who touch themselves when they think about the WWE will attack AEW because they're not doing wrestling the way the WWE said it is suppose to be done.


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## RapShepard (Jun 20, 2014)

3venflow said:


> If people read the quote they would see what Khan's interpretation of sports-based meant. Even if he hasn't fully adhered to it, AEW is closer to *his* perception of it than many choose to believe.
> 
> “We’re going to provide, a serious, sport-based product with the best wrestling. Something you’re going to notice more and more in our shows is they’re going to take place in and around the ring. Like, we’re not going to go out of the arena, we’re not going to spend half the show backstage in dressing rooms, or backstage choreographed segments."
> 
> ...


But that's the thing, the presentation isn't much different than how most US wrestling is presented. So trying to stretch out that "well they have rankings and w/l records" doesn't mean they're suddenly sports based. They feel not much different than how WCW, WWE, and Impact before the fall present themselves. That's what gets that crowd, it doesn't feel any different. I don't have a problem with the presentation. But folk clearly weren't looking to see a show that looks and feels like every other major US wrestling show the last 25 years. 

I do have a problem with the titles, as most seem to either frequently not be in a story or in the world title case, has been in one too long lol. Like Britt's chase is good. But Shida's mostly absence from this makes it weird. The got the talent. But like everywhere else they just tend to lack the stories.


----------



## Erik. (Mar 17, 2014)

Because wrestling fans in particular watch something they don't enjoy because they want to enjoy it. 

Its weird.


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## TKO Wrestling (Jun 26, 2018)

Because AEW doesn't have outlandish production values. Honestly they just need to bite the bullet and go with high end production/music/entrances, etc...that is what is holding back a lot of the WWE fans. AEW just doesn't look as cool. The logo does. But the production isn't the same camera quality and the entrances arent as dramatic. Pyro is weaker. Etc...


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## rbl85 (Nov 21, 2017)

TKO Wrestling said:


> Because AEW doesn't have outlandish production values. Honestly they just need to bite the bullet and go with high end production/music/entrances, etc...that is what is holding back a lot of the WWE fans. AEW just doesn't look as cool. The logo does. But the production isn't the same camera quality and the entrances arent as dramatic. Pyro is weaker. Etc...


WWE brought back the pyro beacuse of AEW.....


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## TKO Wrestling (Jun 26, 2018)

rbl85 said:


> WWE brought back the pyro beacuse of AEW.....


Right but they brought it back in a much grander way than before. AEW has not tried to top that. The thing about Eric Bischoff and Nitro was that he tried to top WWE in look/presentation. AEW just sticks with their stuff.


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## rbl85 (Nov 21, 2017)

TKO Wrestling said:


> Right but they brought it back in a much grander way than before. AEW has not tried to top that. The thing about Eric Bischoff and Nitro was that he tried to top WWE in look/presentation. AEW just sticks with their stuff.


The thing is Daily's place is not the best arena for Pyro.


----------



## Prosper (Mar 25, 2015)

BOSS of Bel-Air said:


> *You have no idea what you're talking about. Expecting 100 year old rules to be followed isn't nostalgia. Expecting referees to do their jobs properly isn't nostalgia. Expecting basic ring psychology and selling isn't nostalgia. You're the type of person that thinks if they replace basketball hoops with soccer goals everyone should be okay with it because "times change." No, that's not how the game works. There's no point in having referees if they're going to blatantly ignore rules. Every match should be no disqualification because Tony Khan has explicitly told us on multiple occasions that no one's getting disqualified, no matter how much egregious shit they do in the ring.*


Nostalgia is defined as a "sentimental longing or wistful affection for the past, typically for a period or place with happy personal associations."

I'm pretty certain I know what I'm talking about Belair. You grew fond of these 100 year rules as you grew up on wrestling and you want future companies to follow up on that and keep it the same way. But AEW has pivoted to create a form of wrestling that they and most of their fans are comfortable with.

Your basketball and soccer analogy is extreme compared to my POV or what wrestling is now and what is was back then. Its the same thing just with slightly different ways of playing the game. Think of it like the NFL. Its the same game now that it was back then, but the rules have pivoted over the years.



BOSS of Bel-Air said:


> *A Kurt Angle and Chris Benoit series is workrate. Fenix and the Young Bucks running around in circles, no selling, and doing a random sequence of moves with no logic is not fucking workrate. *


Both styles are considered workrate. Today's style of workrate is just different from what you're nostalgic about. It's okay for things to evolve. Benoit/Angle had their idea of work rate and Fenix/Bucks have their idea of work rate. If you don't like it, that doesn't automatically make it bad, it just makes it different. Batman movies having more CGI now doesn't make today's version better than the past and the past version worse than the present, just different. They're both good.

And you're being hyperbolic as far as how they wrestle their matches. There is plenty of selling and there are plenty of sequences of moves that make sense. They're not in there jumping on trampolines for 20 minutes straight like you're making it sound. They all pop the crowd and they all generate excitement for the modern fan in the same way that the more mat based stuff generated excitement and intrigue for the fans of yesterday.



BOSS of Bel-Air said:


> *You excuse every idiotic thing AEW does and say "it's just entertainment" but a woman built better than 90% of the male roster is where you draw the line? Nope. Keep that same energy. If you complain, you are now an extremist that hates everything about wrestling. That's how your flawed logic works.*


You can't keep going back to the line "You excuse everything" when we debate when you know that I obviously don't. This is about you keeping the same energy. Jade Cargill pinning Cody in the main event of a PPV like you proposed just because she has a hot physique is okay, but doing 3 Destroyers in a match isn't? That is a line far above what you call "no psychology".


----------



## TD Stinger (May 9, 2012)

After reading through some of this thread, can we end the notion that no other company other than AEW has ever had such criticism.

Like, guys, the internet has been around for awhile now. I know we live in the social media age and obviously because of that we see everyone's opinions. But newsflash, people have been, to put it bluntly, whining and arguing about wrestling for decades. Hell, go back on old wrestling forums and you'll find people saying Steve Austin in 99 was stale and boring. Imagine Twitter if it existed during the great Higher Power debacle. This kind of "polarizing" shit has always existed in wrestling.

Now sure, there are people who are hardcore WWE marks who hate AEW for existing, and vice versa. And there are other reasons for why AEW might get some of the kind of hate it gets. But again, let's stop acting like wrestling fans haven't been like this for years, before AEW even existed.


----------



## 5 Star Giulia ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ (Apr 21, 2014)

Prosper said:


> Nostalgia is defined as a "sentimental longing or wistful affection for the past, typically for a period or place with happy personal associations."
> 
> I'm pretty certain I know what I'm talking about Belair. You grew fond of these 100 year rules as you grew up on wrestling and you want future companies to follow up on that and keep it the same way. But AEW has pivoted to create a form of wrestling that they and most of their fans are comfortable with.
> 
> Your basketball and soccer analogy is extreme compared to my POV or what wrestling is now and what is was back then. Its the same thing just with slightly different ways of playing the game. Think of it like the NFL. Its the same game now that it was back then, but the rules have pivoted over the years.


*What you're failing to understand is that wrestling rules have not changed, they just aren't enforced in this company. This has nothing to do with nostalgia. Nostalgia has nothing to do with the referee not counting guys out when they're fucking around backstage in the middle of a tag match. Nostalgia has nothing to do with someone interfering in a match and assaulting one of the performers right in front of an acting referee*. *These are staples that you cannot ignore just because you want a pinfall or submission ending in every match*. 

*This would be the equivalent of an NBA referee letting a guy with six fouls continue to play because he's about to score 50 points.* * No, you get his ass out of there because that's the fucking rule and it hasn't changed in half a century. A nostalgic complaint would be "This show sucks because Kenny Omega isn't The Rock." No, this show sucks because they ignore the entire foundation of what pro wrestling is.*




> Both styles are considered workrate. Today's style of workrate is just different from what you're nostalgic about. It's okay for things to evolve. Benoit/Angle had their idea of work rate and Fenix/Bucks have their idea of work rate. If you don't like it, that doesn't automatically make it bad, it just makes it different. Batman movies having more CGI now doesn't make today's version better than the past and the past version worse than the present, just different. They're both good.


*Batman isn't a crackhead that killed his own parents in 2021. The core story is still there. The graphics and special effects just got better.*



> And you're being hyperbolic as far as how they wrestle their matches. There is plenty of selling and there are plenty of sequences of moves that make sense. They're not in there jumping on trampolines for 20 minutes straight like you're making it sound. They all pop the crowd and they all generate excitement for the modern fan in the same way that the more mat based stuff generated excitement and intrigue for the fans of yesterday.


*We saw Felix get up from three consecutive v-triggers within 10 seconds about a month ago. That is the world champion's signature move and he's a mid card guy. Please stop lying about what everyone witnessed with their own eyes. They don't fucking sell.*



> You can't keep going back to the line "You excuse everything" when we debate when you know that I obviously don't. This is about you keeping the same energy. Jade Cargill pinning Cody in the main event of a PPV like you proposed just because she has a hot physique is okay, but doing 3 Destroyers in a match isn't? That is a line far above what you call "no psychology".


*A woman beating a man has nothing to do with wrestling psychology. That's you assuming all women are weaker by default and shouldn't be doing it. Yes, Jade pinning Cody on pay-per-view makes a shitload more sense than a guy kicking out at 1 after a destroyer and losing to a schoolboy pin. It's baffling how you don't understand that they're taking the power out of every devastating move in the business, making finishers look weak, and making any finish that doesn't involve a 20 ft drop look underwhelming.*


----------



## the_flock (Nov 23, 2016)

Garty said:


> Everyone WWE released was signed and "promised" only 4 or 5 would be signed. That was last year, when WWE held their, now annual, "purge" of talent. You'd be a pretty bad owner/businessman not to "break a promise", of signing some of the talent released at that time. Should they not sign Samoa Joe, or as impossible as it may seem, potentially Bryan Danielson?
> Riho did have commitments to STARDOM, but was signed to AEW. She wasn't around (as was almost all talent living outside of North America), due to this thing, you may have heard about... CV-19?
> The tag-team division is what set them apart from WWE. Say what you will of other divisions in the company, but the AEW tag division, is second to none.
> Well, Cody not going after, or fighting for, the AEW Championship has worked out thus far, has it not? There's no lie or "broken promise" there.
> ...


- No I don't think they needed to sign as many as they have. At last count it was 20. How many of them have actually been worthwhile? 4 or 5 top quality talent from AEW on top of Cody, Jericho would have been plenty. 

- Riho not being able to defend the women's title had fuck all to do with Covid, she had already lost the title a month before 9 states out of 51 in North America went in to Lockdown. 

- The AEW tag division isn't 2nd to none. You're missing the point I was making, I said they had a real chance to put the tag division on the map, as at the time WWE's wasn't really that great. They put the titles on SCU who were barely getting a woo a week in to their reign. 

- How is not putting the world title on the guy who was getting the biggest pops and plaudits a good thing. 

- What has TV 14 got to do with anything. I was using that as a positive as that's what they were using to set them apart. 

- I said they had a lot of Indie talents who could have made the step up, but they were squandered. It's not a lie that WWE talent get more favourable booking than the Indie darlings. Yes the mentality of the product is indie shit. 

- Yes I do believe that Jim Cornette could sort out a lot of problems within AEW, as could Vince Russo, Eric Bischoff and others. I think everyone will admit that AEW needs a management team in place to sort shit out. Wasn't it Jericho who said this week that they had never had a production meeting, that's just absolutely scandalous. 

- I'm not arguing with you about whether Uncle Dave is on payroll or not, I think the majority of people on these forums know the truth. 

- So Tony Khan went against what he said then and appeared on screen in embarrassing, cringeworthy promos. 

- I don't need to go to University to study for 7 years to be able to form an opinion. I do watch clips, I do read reviews, I do read and listen to opinions. I stopped watching full time after 12 episodes as I found it a chore, having to watch a YouTube show in order to actually figure out what the fuck was happening storyline wise was absolutely dumb, just so the Bucks could boost their view count.


----------



## Dickhead1990 (Aug 31, 2016)

Because it's cool to hate in wrestling fandom. We can have the best thing in the world and people would still piss their pants over it.


----------



## the_flock (Nov 23, 2016)

I really do think if another billionaire or rich dude came along and decided to start a promotion, AEW would be in big trouble.


----------



## Brad Boyd (Jan 28, 2020)

Some fanboys overrate the shit out of AEW and some say its better than Ruthless Agression era and even current WWE. AEW, NXT and SD can all be good and are nearly at the same level of quality. Aew has its upsides like better tag division, more weapons and blood etc. Some people agree with this and see AEW as another flawed product no different than WWEs best brands. So I mean there's that.


----------



## ProWresBlog (Apr 6, 2021)

I've been on the internet talking wrestling since 2002. Before 2016, I rarely ever saw people get banned undeservedly. Then during and after the election, it became the norm.

AEW has a large group of fans who are abusive to anyone who critiques their promotion and many really do seem to take critiques of the promotion personally. I think a lot of people do this likely during political discussions and since their side usually doesn't get banned, they start doing it in other places. A lot of moderators of places like squaredcircle, F4W, 420chan, deathvalleydriver and other sites(who are ultimately the root of the problem) allow them to do this by ignoring their own rules, since they too are big AEW fans.


----------



## ProWresBlog (Apr 6, 2021)

Geeee said:


> I suppose Reddit has a system where negative discourse is hidden from view with downvotes


Reddit may be the worst discussion forum ever created:

- You have to have comment karma or post karma to post in many subs.

- You have to have an account that is *_* weeks/months old to post in some subs.

- If your score in any subreddit is below 0, you have to wait 15 minutes or so to post.

- if your score goes below -5, your comment is hidden and has to be manually unhidden to be seen.

- Mods do not have to follow any rules and can ban you for anything without any oversight. Going around the ban gets you an account ban.

- Mods can mute you once they ban you so that you can't send another message for 1-3 days or more.

- Mods do not have to check messages you send and will often even deny that you sent them messages.

- 1 karma point doesn't equal 1 karma point. If you get 20,000 upvotes for a thread, there's a good chance you might only get like 2,000 comment karma for it.

- The site shadowbans people, and there's many algorithms that automatically remove posts on various topics, regardless of what they say.


----------



## DOTL (Jan 3, 2012)

Because WWE nostalgia makes some people hostile to the idea that some people like AEW more. That makes AEW fans overdefensive to the point that some of them a scared to criticize the brand because those WWE fans might see it as validation of their original opinions.


----------



## The Phantom (Jan 12, 2018)

It's new and people like to pick sides.


----------



## Mr316 (Dec 3, 2020)

I was all in at first. I wanted AEW to kick WWE’s ass. I thought their very first PPV was great. But since day one, they’ve been doing questionable stuff but atleast it felt like they had a plan and a vision for the product. Months later, I realized there was no vision and no plan at all. They added a bunch of wrestlers not ready for TV on the roster. They added a bunch of lame characters. They really started losing me when Matt Hardy started teleporting on TV.


----------



## Geert Wilders (Jan 18, 2021)

Mr316 said:


> I was all in at first. I wanted AEW to kick WWE’s ass. I thought their very first PPV was great. But since day one, they’ve been doing questionable stuff but atleast it felt like they had a plan and a vision for the product. Months later, I realized there was no vision and no plan at all. They added a bunch of wrestlers not ready for TV on the roster. They added a bunch of lame characters. They really started losing me when Matt Hardy started teleporting on TV.


Unfortunately your standards are too high. Matt Hardy teleporting - they learned from their mistake. It is a forgivable mistake. 

Everything else I agree. But yes, it’s time to be patient. It took vince 40 years.

Btw I think it it fine to be critical of AEW. But the whole “I’m never watching this shit again it is the worst thing ever created” or the “this company will not exist in 5 years” hyperbole then continue posting is a bit boring.


----------



## MonkasaurusRex (Jul 3, 2016)

DammitChrist said:


> If critics *really* want the company to succeed, then many of them should really start acting like it instead of gloating or celebrating whenever they dip in viewers and whenever they have a (minor) slip-up.


Those who gloat about things like that are idiots. But not everyone who is critical of it are gloating. If you are someone who wants them to succeed you don't have to blindly praise everything they do. Being critical of their shortcomings should be something that even their most ardent supporters should be doing if they really want them to be the best that they can be. Hold them to the fucking standards you want them reach/surpass because if you don't they'll one day start feeding you dog shit because they know you'll eat it no matter what.


----------



## DammitChrist (Apr 3, 2016)

MonkasaurusRex said:


> Those who gloat about things like that are idiots. But not everyone who is critical of it are gloating. If you are someone who wants them to succeed you don't have to blindly praise everything they do. Being critical of their shortcomings should be something that even their most ardent supporters should be doing if they* really want them to be the best that they can be. Hold them to the fucking standards you want them reach/surpass because if you don't they'll one day start feeding you dog shit because they know you'll eat it no matter what.*


Alright, that's fair because GOD FORBID that ever happens with this company. We wouldn't want that at all.

In that case, committing more with the women's division and giving more TV time to someone like Hikaru Shida would be a good start for them


----------



## Well You Know (Nov 8, 2019)

PushCrymeTyme said:


> never before has there been this much vitriol for a new wrestling promotion in its infancy.......what makes aew a hotbed for indignation that was never seen before for any other rival wwe company ?


If I had more time I'd love to watch more of it. I would say something as a bit of a casual AEW viewer that I find kind of annoying is when you have someone like Jericho always saying it's not about WWE but every so often takes a direct shot of criticism their way. I don't think that draws over the fans that are generally WWE loyalists.


----------



## MonkasaurusRex (Jul 3, 2016)

Geert Wilders said:


> Unfortunately your standards are too high. Matt Hardy teleporting - they learned from their mistake. It is a forgivable mistake.
> 
> Everything else I agree. But yes, it’s time to be patient. It took vince 40 years.
> 
> Btw I think it it fine to be critical of AEW. But the whole “I’m never watching this shit again it is the worst thing ever created” or the “this company will not exist in 5 years” hyperbole then continue posting is a bit boring.


It didn't take Vince 40 years. Less than 5 years after taking over a regional wrestling company he had turned it into a national entity that was generating major crossover success with MTV, their main star was a mainstream celebrity and he did it all without having a billionaire daddy to financially support him.

People's standards aren't too high. AEW wanted to go from 0 to 100 right off the bat and with that comes certain expectations. They did it to themselves. Also fans should always hold them to the standards they want them achieve on a regular basis. If they don't then there will be no incentive to improve.


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

validreasoning killing it in here, as per usual. 



3venflow said:


> And they contradict themselves.
> 
> 
> want sports-based
> ...


Sports-based doesn’t mean that. It doesn’t mean no stories. It’s a story told in a sporting context. AEW does not put on “no bullshit” matches. A lot of people want wrestling that actually looks like a work. Like two guys actually trying to work together to make it look like an actual fight. AEW puts together dances.



rbl85 said:


> WWE brought back the pyro beacuse of AEW.....


I’d say it’s way more likely WWE brought back pyro because they had multi-billion dollar TV contracts about to go into place.



the_flock said:


> I really do think if another billionaire or rich dude came along and decided to start a promotion, AEW would be in big trouble.


Absolutely. 100%. I think you’d see a lot of AEW guys jump ship. But you’d see a lot of viewers jump ship too. If it were done right, you’d have way more than 1 million people watching it, and that would really expose AEW as underperforming. There would be no more excuse as to how another new wrestling promotion is kicking its ass, possibly from a cable network in fewer homes on a more competitive night for television.

Don’t tell me that more wrestling fans are going to watch a bloated Chris Jericho stroke his own ego than watch a wrestling promotion headlined by, say, Daniel Bryan, Samoa Joe, Brock Lesnar and CM Punk.



ProWresBlog said:


> I've been on the internet talking wrestling since 2002. Before 2016, I rarely ever saw people get banned undeservedly. Then during and after the election, it became the norm.
> 
> AEW has a large group of fans who are abusive to anyone who critiques their promotion and many really do seem to take critiques of the promotion personally. I think a lot of people do this likely during political discussions and since their side usually doesn't get banned, they start doing it in other places. A lot of moderators of places like squaredcircle, F4W, 420chan, deathvalleydriver and other sites(who are ultimately the root of the problem) allow them to do this by ignoring their own rules, since they too are big AEW fans.


I won’t go down the political route, but I see the specifics of your point. I think it has more to do with this bizarre cult of personality around the The Elite, Dave Meltzer and these PWG guys.

It was so small and personal, it really was grassroots, that it has created this personal relationship with a certain kind of fan that they get really defensive about whenever AEW is criticised, by extension.

They really have convinced a lot of fans that they are their friends. It’s really weird. 



DOTL said:


> Because WWE nostalgia makes some people hostile to the idea that some people like AEW more. That makes AEW fans overdefensive to the point that some of them a scared to criticize the brand because those WWE fans might see it as validation of their original opinions.


I’m sorry, but this just doesn’t make sense. 



Geert Wilders said:


> Unfortunately your standards are too high. Matt Hardy teleporting - they learned from their mistake. It is a forgivable mistake.
> 
> Everything else I agree. But yes, it’s time to be patient. It took vince 40 years.
> 
> Btw I think it it fine to be critical of AEW. But the whole “I’m never watching this shit again it is the worst thing ever created” or the “this company will not exist in 5 years” hyperbole then continue posting is a bit boring.


I like you as a poster. I can tell you try to be balanced. But I think the level of forgiveness you have for crappy wrestling comes down to the individual. The idea of Matt Hardy teleporting is so fucking stupid that I wouldn’t blame anyone for not being able to forgive it. That’s what some might call “jumping the shark.”

And not to be nitpicky, but it didn’t really take Vince 40 years. He took over the WWF in 1982. The first WrestleMania was in 1985. AEW has almost been around as long. They were also very different economics. Easier to make a mint now with those TV rights. Vince had to sell tickets and eventually sell PPVs. He bought a lot of his TV.


----------



## Geert Wilders (Jan 18, 2021)

MonkasaurusRex said:


> It didn't take Vince 40 years. Less than 5 years after taking over a regional wrestling company he had turned it into a national entity that was generating major crossover success with MTV, their main star was a mainstream celebrity and he did it all without having a billionaire daddy to financially support him.
> 
> People's standards aren't too high. AEW wanted to go from 0 to 100 right off the bat and with that comes certain expectations. They did it to themselves. Also fans should always hold them to the standards they want them achieve on a regular basis. If they don't then there will be no incentive to improve.


I also wanted 0 to 100 and i was very disappointed. But I’m also hopeful they find their foottng.


----------



## MonkasaurusRex (Jul 3, 2016)

DammitChrist said:


> Alright, that's fair because GOD FORBID that ever happens with this company. We wouldn't want that at all.
> 
> In that case, committing more with the women's division and giving more TV time to someone like Hikaru Shida would be a good start for them


There is always going to be toxic people around and there is always going to be blind followers as well and neither of those groups of people are going to make or break AEW. It's the honest fans that help you improve. AEW does some damn good stuff but they falter in other areas quite often as well, pointing it out isn't inherently negative.


----------



## MonkasaurusRex (Jul 3, 2016)

Geert Wilders said:


> I also wanted 0 to 100 and i was very disappointed. But I’m also hopeful they find their foottng.


If you wanted them to go from 0 to 100 you should know that with that come standards to meet. It okay to be disappointed with them not meeting those standards. Having fans(actual fans of their product not the toxic naysayers or the blind followers) that want them to be the best that they can that hold them accountable when they don't reach those lofty standards are likely going to ispire them to reach those standards regularly.


----------



## Dickhead1990 (Aug 31, 2016)

ProWresBlog said:


> I've been on the internet talking wrestling since 2002. Before 2016, I rarely ever saw people get banned undeservedly. Then during and after the election, it became the norm.
> 
> AEW has a large group of fans who are abusive to anyone who critiques their promotion and many really do seem to take critiques of the promotion personally. I think a lot of people do this likely during political discussions and since their side usually doesn't get banned, they start doing it in other places. A lot of moderators of places like squaredcircle, F4W, 420chan, deathvalleydriver and other sites(who are ultimately the root of the problem) allow them to do this by ignoring their own rules, since they too are big AEW fans.


I've been around for about the same amount of time and remember the behaviour you're describing as a constant throughout. It was ECW fans at one point, as well as anti-Cena fans, then TNA ones, then the "I miss the Attitude Era" movement. I know because I generally agreed with them all, however it was their way or troll attack.

The problem is that no one wants to read constant negativity. To say the least, it drives people away and kills discussions. I personally have visited a lot less often as I just want to enjoy wrestling, rather than read that Tony Khan is a rubbish leader because one match didn't go so well, written by a spotty teenager that hasn't left his bedroom in a week, is out of Kleenex and whose experience of leading anything is that one time they had a trial shift at [Insert crap fast-food chain here].

I see members on here that critique in a balanced manner, which is perfect. I may not always agree, but this is reasonable. Posting 400 times per day about Tony Khan and The Elite being dicks is not on the other hand - something which I sadly have seen this place become at times.


----------



## Brad Boyd (Jan 28, 2020)

Prosper said:


> Both styles are considered workrate. Today's style of workrate is just different from what you're nostalgic about. It's okay for things to evolve. Benoit/Angle had their idea of work rate and Fenix/Bucks have their idea of work rate. If you don't like it, that doesn't automatically make it bad, it just makes it different. Batman movies having more CGI now doesn't make today's version better than the past and the past version worse than the present, just different. They're both good.


I'm sorry but so many people in the business today that worked WELL in the past criticize the new guys and their abilities in the ring heavily. Workrate has absolutely regressed when it comes to psychology and selling, and I can leave that to professionals and some of the best workers for that valid take who heavily criticize spot monkeys of today that don't have a grasp on psychology or selling. I'll take Bret Hart, Brian Kendrick, even Randy Ortons opinions on garbage wrestling like The Bucks do today over a small niche audience that considers that to be "great workrate/wrestling"


----------



## DOTL (Jan 3, 2012)

The Wood said:


> I’m sorry, but this just doesn’t make sense.


Makes perfect sense. AEW is polarizing because one group of fanboys is hypercritical and the other is over-defensive.


----------



## Rozzop (Aug 26, 2019)

I don't watch AEW but just seen Blood and Guts. This is my take. 

It comes across as a small time indie fed. Lack of a crowd obviously makes it worse but the atmosphere is horrible. 

Everything is too shiny. I don't feel like I'm watching a wrestling show. 

The wrestling itself is garbage. No selling, no sense of a struggle or fight. Just highly choreagraphed dancing. They may as well skip around the ring for twenty minutes holding hands. 

The commentary is awful. JR sounds asleep. 

The Jericho fall was funny. Obvious crash pad and he is even laughing and smiling whilst the camera zooms in on him. 

WWE is largely unwatchable too but those are just my opinions.


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

DOTL said:


> Makes perfect sense. AEW is polarizing because one group of fanboys is hypercritical and the other is over-defensive.


That’s not what you said. You said that the nostalgia for the WWE made people upset that people like AEW more. That’s not the same as being hypercritical. And what about the people who don’t like WWE and don’t like AEW?


----------



## MonkasaurusRex (Jul 3, 2016)

DOTL said:


> Makes perfect sense. AEW is polarizing because one group of fanboys is hypercritical and the other is over-defensive.


That describes evey fanbase ever. It's not an AEW specific issue.



The Wood said:


> That’s not what you said. You said that the nostalgia for the WWE made people upset that people like AEW more. That’s not the same as being hypercritical. And what about the people who don’t like WWE and don’t like AEW?


What about the people like myself that like both AEW and WWE?


----------



## adamclark52 (Nov 27, 2015)

BwcUse I want nothing less than weekly 7-star matches while I’m having tk settle for less

and why has no one used any power ups yet???


----------



## Blade Runner (Jan 24, 2012)

GL said:


> Because it's just a trainwreck of what we need and what we hate.
> 
> On one hand it is exactly the kind of in your face rebellion we need. Give us great talent, who have charisma. Let them do their own unscripted interviews. Screw backstage politics.
> 
> ...



Pretty much this.

It's the Independents on a bigger stage. This means highlight all of the shit that looks unpolished and fake about professional wrestling and try to turn the product into a glorified meme with meta / grade 4-level humor.

I don't find it all bad, though. Some of the guys on there (MJF, Kingston, Cody) are capable of cutting fantastic promos that feel natural and full of emotion. Some of the backstage segments are very well produced. The problem is that it's not consistent, and offset by the more than equal amount of absolute clownery that makes up the rest of the show.


----------



## DOTL (Jan 3, 2012)

The Wood said:


> That’s not what you said. You said that the nostalgia for the WWE made people upset *hostile to the idea* that people like AEW more.


AND that this makes AEW fans defensive. If I didn't mean of criticism, then what are they getting defensive over? Knife attacks? Air raids? Your Mama Jokes? The second post was to clarify this. Not echo what I said back to you.

And so what if someone doesn't like both? The question is "why it's so polarizing?" Not "why do people dislike it?"




MonkasaurusRex said:


> That describes evey fanbase ever. It's not an AEW specific issue.


And no one said that AEW was the only polarizing fanbase.


----------



## Chrome (Jan 11, 2012)

validreasoning said:


> I guess using your logic TNA fans no longer care about TNA given I don't see them all over forums and chat sites like were 10-15 years. Little saying "Out of sight, out of mind". Once TNA lost their national TV deal with Spike people stopped caring.
> 
> This is the real problem WCW/TNA/AEW hardcores care (at the time) too much what "WWE fans" think. The reality is most WWE fans don't care, most don't care about anything but the odd thing in WWE. WWE fans have never even cared about fucking WWE midcard so you really expect them to care about another promotion with 1/10th the market share?
> 
> That group of fans I mentioned are so hung up on how their favourite promotion is perceived by those that don't love everything. Why does it fucking matter. TNA fans were so obsessed with this shit they started TNA mecca and other crazy sites so that needed for better word a space space echo chamber to shield their tv show from criticism.


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

DOTL said:


> AND that this makes AEW fans defensive. If I didn't mean of criticism, then what are they getting defensive over? Knife attacks? Air raids? Your Mama Jokes? The second post was to clarify this. Not echo what I said back to you.
> 
> And so what if someone doesn't like both? The question is "why it's so polarizing?" Not "why do people dislike it?"
> 
> ...


This post makes even less sense.


----------



## DOTL (Jan 3, 2012)

The Wood said:


> This post makes even less sense.


It's as easy as this. The open hostility that some fans have to the brand create uncritical apologists who overpraise the brand out of defense. 

AKA, Fanboyism.


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

DOTL said:


> It's as easy as this. The open hostility that some fans have to the brand create uncritical apologists who overpraise the brand out of defense.
> 
> AKA, Fanboyism.


That makes more sense. AEW apologists can’t take criticism. Don’t know why you had to bring WWE into it initially.


----------



## DOTL (Jan 3, 2012)

The Wood said:


> That makes more sense. AEW apologists can’t take criticism. Don’t know why you had to bring WWE into it initially.


Because a lot of the criticism is born out of bad faith from brand loyalty. You see it all the time in console wars.


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

DOTL said:


> Because a lot of the criticism is born out of bad faith from brand loyalty. You see it all the time in console wars.


I don’t think that’s the case here. AEW is way too similar to the WWE, if anything. Except maybe with even sillier gimmicks. It went Full WWE. You never go Full WWE.


----------



## validreasoning (Jul 4, 2012)

The Wood said:


> That makes more sense. AEW apologists can’t take criticism. Don’t know why you had to bring WWE into it initially.


Considering that NBA fans were far more critical of AEW it's very strange to mention WWE fans.


----------



## DOTL (Jan 3, 2012)

validreasoning said:


> Considering that NBA fans were far more critical of AEW it's very strange to mention WWE fans.


Now that doesn't make any sense. NBA fans don't go to AEW forums.


----------



## anonymous9437 (Jan 6, 2021)

This video is a perfect example

Bryan Alvarez represents the AEW fanboys like the group on this site while Lance Storm is representing the people on this site that enjoy AEW somewhat but feel they do a lot of stupid shit and deserve to be called out for it


----------



## DammitChrist (Apr 3, 2016)

The critics do come across as incredibly sensitive, so they feel the need to project by claiming that the “fans can’t handle criticism” when it’s really the other way around since they can’t tolerate how good the product really is for plenty of wrestling fans.


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

DOTL said:


> Now that doesn't make any sense. NBA fans don't go to AEW forums.


The question is why it’s polarising. It’s not just WWE fans that don’t like this shit. They’ve got a higher tolerance for it than most.


----------



## cai1981 (Oct 2, 2016)

They promised to be better than WWE and have fallen flat. They come across as minor league and get off on making fun of what they hear about WWE in the dirt sheets (Uncle Dave...) on TV. 

They overpromised and WAY underdelivered...yet act like they did something by (narrowly) beating WWE's minor league programming. Also, guys that went there after leaving WWE (other than Jericho and Moxley) have been booked no better other than being given 10-15 minutes of match time rather than just 5-10.


----------



## Brad Boyd (Jan 28, 2020)

DammitChrist said:


> The critics do come across as incredibly sensitive, so they feel the need to project by claiming that the “fans can’t handle criticism” when it’s really the other way around since they can’t tolerate how good the product really is for plenty of wrestling fans.


I see more whining from superfans about subjective criticisms and opinions more so than the other way around tbh :kobe


That's when people say that fans can't handle criticism, it's clear as day when I hear this very statement repeatedly "Don't like, Don't watch" Passive aggressive way of saying "Don't criticize my precious AEW, it hurts my feelings."


----------



## DammitChrist (Apr 3, 2016)

Brad Boyd said:


> I see more whining from superfans about subjective critcisms and opinions more so than the other way around tbh :kobe
> 
> 
> That's when people say that fans can't handle criticism, it's clear as day when I hear this very statement repeatedly "Don't like, Don't watch" Passive aggressive way of saying "Don't critcize my precious AEW, it hurts my feelings."


Nah, the critics are the ones cluttering up the page with their pessimistic threads whining and being incredibly dramatic over a minor flaw.

There’s actually a thread comparing this past week’s finish of Dynamite to that tragic botched explosion that closed AEW Revolution. 

There’s no scenario here at all where the fans (somwhow) look “worse” compared to the critics. There’s really no good examples at all :lol


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

DammitChrist said:


> Nah, the critics are the ones cluttering up the page with their pessimistic threads whining and being incredibly dramatic over a minor flaw.
> 
> There’s actually a thread comparing this past week’s finish of Dynamite to that tragic botched explosion that closed AEW Revolution.
> 
> There’s no scenario here at all where the fans (somwhow) look “worse” compared to the critics. There’s really no good examples at all :lol


This is one.


----------



## Brad Boyd (Jan 28, 2020)

DammitChrist said:


> Nah, the critics are the ones cluttering up the page with their pessimistic threads whining and being incredibly dramatic over a minor flaw.
> 
> There’s actually a thread comparing this past week’s finish of Dynamite to that tragic botched explosion that closed AEW Revolution.
> 
> There’s no scenario here at all where the fans (somwhow) look “worse” compared to the critics. There’s really no good examples at all :lol


I just pointed out to you an example , but there are many where loyalists or superfans or geeks or whatever you wanna call em, constantly pity people and act like victims and babies when AEW is rightfully getting shat on and thus this is how a lot of this big "divide" between critics and fans takes place. Everyone can have their own opinion, if people learn to respect others opinions, this forum would be a less laughable place. Put some people on ignore if critics are bothering you this much.


----------



## DammitChrist (Apr 3, 2016)

The Wood said:


> This is one.


Yep, I made *one* valid post here with good points already.


----------



## taker_2004 (Jul 1, 2017)

DammitChrist said:


> tragic botched explosion


For some reason this made me laugh.

You made it sound like it was some horrible catastrophe with casualties and half-singed corpses strewn about, not oversized birthday sparklers on ring posts lol.


----------



## The Raw Smackdown (Jan 8, 2017)

Brad Boyd said:


> I just pointed out to you an example , but there are many where loyalists or superfans or geeks or whatever you wanna call em, constantly pity people and act like victims and babies when AEW is rightfully getting shat on and thus this is how a lot of this big "divide" between critics and fans takes place. Everyone can have their own opinion, if people learn to respect others opinions, this forum would be a less laughable place. Put some people on ignore if critics are bothering you this much.


So if everyone is allowed to have an opinion why is it that whenever someone has something positive to say about AEW they get shat on? Y'all can't have it both ways. You can't act like the other side is the problem when YOU motherfuckers are the ones who keep on with this arrogant mess and act like we all have to agree with you because you're right and you know better. Guess what...you don't. 

How about YOU put people on ignore if superfans are bothering you. We don't have to cater to your bullshit.


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

The Raw Smackdown said:


> So if everyone is allowed to have an opinion why is it that whenever someone has something positive to say about AEW they get shat on? Y'all can't have it both ways. You can't act like the other side is the problem when YOU motherfuckers are the ones who keep on with this arrogant mess and act like we all have to agree with you because you're right and you know better. Guess what...you don't.
> 
> How about YOU put people on ignore if superfans are bothering you. We don't have to cater to your bullshit.


It’s called a discussion. No one shits on the people. Poor arguments get discredited and opinions are discussed. No one gives a fuck if you like AEW or not. Discussing whether or not it is actually good or successful at what it does is an entirely different kettle of fish.


----------



## The Raw Smackdown (Jan 8, 2017)

The Wood said:


> It’s called a discussion. *No one shits on the people.* Poor arguments get discredited and opinions are discussed. No one gives a fuck if you like AEW or not. Discussing whether or not it is actually good or successful at what it does is an entirely different kettle of fish.


This is damn lie but okay. If you want to pretend that that's a "Discussion" hey. More power to you but I'd advise you to learn what that is.


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

The Raw Smackdown said:


> This is damn lie but okay. If you want to pretend that that's a "Discussion" hey. More power to you but I'd advise you to learn what that is.


It’s not a lie at all. It’s why really defensive fanboys call for the heads of critics but the mods let them stay. They don’t rant and rave when someone disagrees with their point. Generally, the people here back it up.

Conversely, you’ve just said “Nah, that’s not right” and said nothing but snark, claiming I don’t know what a discussion is without actually bringing a genuine point forward. You’ve just gone “nuh-uh, you’re stupid.”

That’s actually perfect evidence against the claim that it’s the critics that are apparently sensitive.


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## Brad Boyd (Jan 28, 2020)

The Raw Smackdown said:


> So if everyone is allowed to have an opinion why is it that whenever someone has something positive to say about AEW they get shat on? Y'all can't have it both ways. You can't act like the other side is the problem when YOU motherfuckers are the ones who keep on with this arrogant mess and act like we all have to agree with you because you're right and you know better. Guess what...you don't.
> 
> How about YOU put people on ignore if superfans are bothering you. We don't have to cater to your bullshit.


Superfans aren't bothering me lmao I laugh every time THEY get bothered. They aren't a problem for me personally I mean enough to put them on ignore, but when people aren't enjoying AEW enough for them they almost make it out to seem like there is a problem. It's quite strange, really. And I often hear them complaining about the state of this forum being so shitty because of them "toxic critics" that "continue to watch something they don't like"

"hate-watching is for losers" etc etc


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## The Raw Smackdown (Jan 8, 2017)

Brad Boyd said:


> Superfans aren't bothering me lmao I laugh every time THEY get bothered. They aren't a problem for me personally I mean enough to put them on ignore, but when people aren't enjoying AEW enough for them they almost make it out to seem like there is a problem. It's quite strange, really. And I often hear them complaining about the state of this forum being so shitty because of them "toxic critics" that "continue watch something they don't like"
> 
> "hate-watching is for losers" etc etc


I mean they're not wrong...


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## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

The Raw Smackdown said:


> I mean they're not wrong...


So you agree?


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## Geert Wilders (Jan 18, 2021)

DammitChrist said:


> Nah, the critics are the ones cluttering up the page with their pessimistic threads whining and being incredibly dramatic over a minor flaw.
> 
> There’s actually a thread comparing this past week’s finish of Dynamite to that tragic botched explosion that closed AEW Revolution.
> 
> There’s no scenario here at all where the fans (somwhow) look “worse” compared to the critics. There’s really no good examples at all :lol


To be honest; to you, it may be a minor flaw. But both the sparkler incident and the Jericho stunt are the kinds of botches that stick with a company forever. 

Think Shockmaster. 

It makes the company look very amateur. There is no reason why in the 21st century, with decades of similar stunts in wrestling, that these botches occur. 

Remember that Orton blew up Cena. Several stars have taken a similar dive by Jericho. From fat ass Rikishi to Shane McMahon. 

The whole point of pro-wrestling is to look and feel real. We need to be able to suspend disbelief. It would be like reading a book, getting to the bit where Voldemort is about to die, and the author says “by the way, I wrote all of this. It’s fully fictional”. It takes you out of the moment and deflates your excitement. It spoils the whole book. 

Now imagine that you’re watching Endgame. Thanos is about to snap his fingers. You’re in the moment. Whoops, you accidentally see Josh Brolin for a glimpse. Whole movie spoiled. 


They are not minor errors at all. Very major errors that need to be fixed. Forgivable? We will see with time. This is two big moments in a row that have been spoiled. So far they have not learned their lessons. Continuous accumulation of this = recipe for disaster.


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## DOTL (Jan 3, 2012)

The Wood said:


> The question is why it’s polarising. It’s not just WWE fans that don’t like this shit. They’ve got a higher tolerance for it than most.


Polarizing implies two poles. It's from my experience on this board that WWE fans, not NBA fans, occupy most of that pole. 

It's funny how people seem to have amnesia on this now.


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## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

DOTL said:


> Polarizing implies two poles. It's from my experience on this board that WWE fans, not NBA fans, occupy most of that pole.
> 
> It's funny how people seem to have amnesia on this now.


We’re talking about AEW vs. people who don’t like AEW. They’re not all WWE fans. At all.


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## RainmakerV2 (Nov 8, 2017)

Because its seen as the last hope to have a true alternative to WWE that can actually give them a run for their money. Billionaire backing, national TV deal. If it fails, any non WWE future wrestling project may fail with it. So, people are passionate about their views of what they should be doing.


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## DOTL (Jan 3, 2012)

The Wood said:


> We’re talking about AEW vs. people who don’t like AEW. They’re not all WWE fans. At all.


I didn't say they were all. I said a lot of them were.


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## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

DOTL said:


> I didn't say they were all. I said a lot of them were.


Not that many. At all.


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## bigwrestlingfan22 (May 19, 2015)

Because those of us older people badly want to relive the Nitro Vs Raw Monday Night Wars when wrestling was so exciting. And the younger people want to be able to experience it live and not something they read about/watch on youtube.


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## Dizzie (Jun 22, 2019)

Because aew have some how managed to create a product that comes across as wwe lite and indyfied all at the same time.


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## kingfunkel (Aug 17, 2011)

Everything they do feels like an inside joke with each other. They can't be serious, it's not a sitcom. With their corny little tongue in cheek insults, that are meant to be funny but sounds like an argument from how I met your mother. Absolutely 0 intensity, just sly SNL attempted comedy insults. 
It's essentially just WWE lite only aimed at adults rather than children but the same BS. 

Also it's not wrestling, it's flippy flopping. Everything is a million miles an hour. You go from 1 thing to another, without being able to digest the first thing. It's a scrambled mess. 

The production looks 2nd rate. How can a cable TV show, look like it's been home shot by amateurs.


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## Bubbly2 (Jan 15, 2021)

I can't lie, what really takes me out of the moment is that everything feels like it's semi serious, with a sneaky grin and a wink to me as a viewer, telling me that this is fake. 

WWE does it too, in a different way. But I haven't watched an episode of WWE in years. AEW is more frustrating because I hold it to a standard.


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## stevem20 (Jul 24, 2018)

They claim they want to be serious, but put a championship on Kenny Omega. I mean, come on, AEW needs to be good because WWE has been awful for years. But get your champions right, so we can at least pretend you're trying.


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## stew mack (Apr 24, 2013)

because it does stuff so damn well, yet other stuff is so cheesy in it..

good 

MJF, Inner Circle, Jurassic Express, Darby is kinda cool too even tho my dad hates him

bad 

the wink and a nod shit, the young bucks, joey janela, fucking riho, taynara conti


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## IronMan8 (Dec 25, 2015)

Because they’re great at times due to unscripted promos and fresh ideas, but they’re also terrible at times due to no-selling, no psychology, they don’t tell the full story on their shows, and the embarrassing production failures.


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## thorwold (Dec 19, 2015)

1. Really generally very good so easy to like.
2. Undeniable success which brings positive and negative reactions in probably equal measure from those happy to see it, and the bitter folk who will cling to their views no matter what.
3. Does have actual flaws so of course has plenty of legit complaints aimed at it too.


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## orited (Oct 30, 2007)

i think it is a mix of things as some have said it is easy to like and very watchable sometimes being brilliant but it also has moments where it is just awful and difficult to watch i must admit the ppv is now shaping up pretty well imo


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## taker_2004 (Jul 1, 2017)

Well, there's the objective reality that a lot of AEW's ethos and resulting content is hit-and-miss. @IronMan8 summed it up well. 

But the other factor at play here is the nature of Internet markdom itself: people park themselves into camps. The same thing happened in the earlier stages of TNA. invariably a group of ardent supporters forms who are incapable of truly entertaining criticism, most of which is borne out of disdain for WWE. Contrary to that, a rabble of overly nihilistic armchair critics converge, which are usually a combination of WWE stans and habitual contrarians, who often mask their disdain for the company under the guise of well-intentioned advice and constructive criticism. 

Then it just descends into baiting and bitching.


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## Pentagon Senior (Nov 16, 2019)

taker_2004 said:


> But the other factor at play here is the nature of Internet markdom itself: people park themselves into camps. The same thing happened in the earlier stages of TNA. invariably a group of ardent supporters forms who are incapable of truly entertaining criticism, most of which is borne out of disdain for WWE. Contrary to that, a rabble of overly nihilistic armchair critics converge, which are usually a combination of WWE stans and habitual contrarians, who often mask their disdain for the company under the guise of well-intentioned advice and constructive criticism.
> 
> Then it just descends into baiting and bitching.


Great post. The part I've quoted needs to be pinned somewhere on the main page ideally lol


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## BroncoBuster3 (Apr 19, 2021)

The honest answer... The haters want it to be better and the fans don't want to admit that it isn't quite as good as it promised or could have been. Almost everyone in the wrestling world wants an alternative to WWE, not alternative WWE which is exactly what AEW has been. They watch the good things and wonder why they can't be consistent with that, they sign some great talent and make them look like a joke, they have good stories and end up messing it up by making Hangman join the Dark Order or something dumb. 

On WF it seems as though there's more discussion about the posters than the actual AEW product which sucks to join and see. It's polarizing because certain people (The wrestlers, the fans etc.) can't be entirely honest about the product. For reference, I love AEW and wrestling as a whole. I just want AEW to be better all the time.


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