# this is why it's hard for me to want to give AEW a chance



## Krin (Apr 8, 2018)

I don't watch AEW but I will occasionally to see a match of someone I follow and would want to see in NXT, like Brian Cage for example.

How the fuck is this










this little shit, about 22 years old, looks about 150lbs soaking wet walking to the ring, you'd think this is Sid Vicious or Samao Joe something the way he's gazing into the camera.  He has a match and you see him destroy 1manthrillride , a guy who is 50lbs or more bigger get absolutely squashed by this dork. 1manthrill ride looks like a grown man and has put 8 years more time in the wrestling business over the Garcia guy, and he's getting demolished by this little twerp. Then I thought to myself OK let me give him the benefit of the doubt, maybe he's a former MMA guy like Matt Riddle or something and that's why he's booked like this (even then I wouldn't like it).. but no, he has no MMA history. He's just booked like a monster who dominates people despite being 5'7, 5'8 and looking like a skinny teenager.












and then later on the same show,

you see a 6'5 265lbs Kevin Mathews lose clean to a 5'8 180lbs comedy joke Sonny Kiss. and these aren't matches where the little guy is playing an underdog and selling for the bigger men or winning in an upset type of fashion. These are decisive wins where the smaller guys are dominating the big guys.


yeah I know wrestling is not supposed to be 100% realistic but this is just stupid, you can tell they're catering their product to the hardcore indy fans with moves like this. and I don't watch everything regarding Brian Cage but from what I've heard, he's booked quite weak.


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## Geeee (Aug 9, 2010)

the dude with a bowtie looks like a stripper


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## HBK Styles Ospreay (Jan 15, 2020)

Krin said:


> I don't watch AEW but I will occasionally to see a match of someone I follow and would want to see in NXT, like Brian Cage for example.
> 
> How the fuck is this
> 
> ...


Anyone that calls themselves '1 man thrill ride' deserves to get their ass kicked.

Having said that I don't get the Daniel Garcia love and why he's all over AEW and a bunch of Indies lately. To me he's just a skinny guy that does boring submission matches, so basically Zack Sabre Jr.


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## Krin (Apr 8, 2018)

HBK Styles Ospreay said:


> Anyone that calls themselves '1 man thrill ride' deserves to get their ass kicked.
> 
> Having said that I don't get the Daniel Garcia love and why he's all over AEW and a bunch of Indies lately. To me he's just a skinny guy that does boring submission matches, so basically Zack Sabre Jr.


Billy Gunn called himself Mr. Ass and had a similar type of character. I still wouldn't buy Billy Gunn being bulldozed by Zack Gowen or Brian Kendrick.


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## The One (Jul 16, 2012)

There you go playing the victim card instead of not admitting you got bad taste.


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## Geeee (Aug 9, 2010)

Krin said:


> Billy Gunn called himself Mr. Ass and had a similar type of character. I still wouldn't buy Billy Gunn being bulldozed by Zack Gowen or Brian Kendrick.


I'm 100% certain Billy Gunn has a losing career record. Although, ridiculously enough he has one of the best records in AEW LOL


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## adamclark52 (Nov 27, 2015)

The guy on his right looks like he’s giving the Invisible Man oral sex


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## SolarPowerBat (Nov 24, 2014)

And they say kayfabe died.


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## jpickens (May 3, 2015)

They do overplay the David vs Goliath story these days.


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## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

Great, keep going with that thought - we need a lot of things in this section

more krin threads isn’t one of them


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## AliFrazier100 (Feb 2, 2019)

Geeee said:


> I'm 100% certain Billy Gunn has a losing career record. Although, ridiculously enough he has one of the best records in AEW LOL


I'm not sure about that. Gunn spent most of his career in successful tag teams.


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## ShadowCounter (Sep 1, 2016)

Then simply don't watch. Maybe wrestling isn't for you and sports entertainment is. Nothing wrong with that. Forunately for you there is already a place for watching big beefy guys slam into each other. It's called WWE...also...there's gay porn. So...


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## elo (Oct 25, 2006)

Finn Balor (5 ft 9) defeated Mace (6 ft 6) in ~3 mins on this past RAW.

If you wanna watch beefcakes win everything then bodybuilding contests are right up your alley.


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## Geeee (Aug 9, 2010)

If only there was an "old school-style" promotion out there that had a working relationship with AEW and would benefit from signing the indy body guys and guys with old school gimmicks that show up frequently on AEW Dark and putting them on their shows instead of Funkasaurus and Chris Masters.


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## adamclark52 (Nov 27, 2015)

AliFrazier100 said:


> I'm not sure about that. Gunn spent most of his career in successful tag teams.







__





Billy Gunn: Win/Loss Record - Internet Wrestling Database (IWD)


Search Billy Gunn's win/loss record at the Internet Wrestling Database



www.profightdb.com


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## Krin (Apr 8, 2018)

ShadowCounter said:


> Then simply don't watch. Maybe wrestling isn't for you and sports entertainment is. Nothing wrong with that. Forunately for you there is already a place for watching big beefy guys slam into each other. It's called WWE...also...there's gay porn. So...


this is an interesting take considering usually I'm the one being accused of homphobia here

but since you brought up WWE being like gay porn


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## Krin (Apr 8, 2018)

elo said:


> Finn Balor (5 ft 9) defeated Mace (6 ft 6) in ~3 mins on this past RAW.
> 
> If you wanna watch beefcakes win everything then bodybuilding contests are right up your alley.


still not the same thing. Balor is an established veteran that's held multiple championships. Mace is a rookie.

That Danny Garcia guy has only been wrestling for about 3-4 years, he's not even established but you see him bulldoze through a guy who looks much more physically credible. and even in the Mace vs. Balor match you don't see Balor dominating Mace. Mace dominates Balor for the majority of the match, Balor selling, gaining momentum and then makes a strong comeback. There is atleast some believable psychology there.


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## ShadowCounter (Sep 1, 2016)

Krin said:


> but since you brought up WWE being like gay porn


No, I didn't say WWE was like gay porn. I said that was another place for people who like watching beefy guys slam into each other to go. Nothing wrong with people who are in to that I'm just giving them options.


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## elo (Oct 25, 2006)

It's called a push.

Khan likes Garcia a lot so he's beating jobbers on Dark whilst losing to vets on the main shows, the size of the jobber means nothing, in fact in pro wrestling it's preferred for jobbers to be larger when it's a smaller guy getting the push.


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## BrrrGoesWooo! (Mar 29, 2021)

Krin said:


> still not the same thing. Balor is an established veteran that's held multiple championships. Mace is a rookie.
> 
> That Danny Garcia guy has only been wrestling for about 3-4 years, he's not even established but you see him bulldoze through a guy who looks much more physically credible. and even in the Mace vs. Balor match you don't see Balor dominating Mace. Mace dominates Balor for the majority of the match, Balor selling, gaining momentum and then makes a strong comeback. There is atleast some believable psychology there.


A simple story of skill vs size. That's all it is. The kid is young, technically skilled, not bad on the mic for his time in, and most importantly has plenty of time and room to grow.

It's called putting over an up and comer.

Just because you don't see it doesn't mean guys like Bryan or Punk don't.


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## Upstart474 (May 13, 2018)

AEW is not meant for everyone. I myself don't watch Rampage because the card are really average. I do like Dynamite not just people AEW need to trim the roster.


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## Krin (Apr 8, 2018)

elo said:


> It's called a push.
> 
> Khan likes Garcia a lot so he's beating jobbers on Dark whilst losing to vets on the main shows, the size of the jobber means nothing, in fact in pro wrestling it's preferred for jobbers to be larger when it's a smaller guy getting the push.


Terrible way to push someone like him imo , babyface get over for their selling, not dominating. (I'm guessing he's a babyface because it looked like the crowd was behind them. even if he was a heel, it wasn't believable)


BrrrGoesWooo! said:


> A simple story of skill vs size. That's all it is. The kid is young, technically skilled, not bad on the mic for his time in, and most importantly has plenty of time and room to grow.
> 
> It's called putting over an up and comer.
> 
> Just because you don't see it doesn't mean guys like Bryan or Punk don't.


If you're going size vs skill, Thrillride has been wrestling 12 years, Garcia has been wrestling 4 so it doesn't really make sense that he's more skilled or experienced. even if that was the case, that's not the story they tried to tell. He could have still won and have the young talent put over but in a believable way using his speed advantage or some degree of psychology. It looked ridiculous seeing him play this viscous, relentless monster being the size he is. I thought Xia Li looked silly doing that, this is actually worse.


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## TheDraw (Jun 27, 2019)

Krin said:


> I don't watch AEW but I will occasionally to see a match of someone I follow and would want to see in NXT, like Brian Cage for example.
> 
> How the fuck is this
> 
> ...


This is the #1 reason I don't watch AEW. So many guys on the roster getting TV time because they know a guy who knows a guy.

It's pretty much like the WWE run like a local fed.


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## hardcorewrasslin (Jun 29, 2016)

Krin said:


> I don't watch AEW but I will occasionally to see a match of someone I follow and would want to see in NXT, like Brian Cage for example.
> 
> How the fuck is this
> 
> ...


Do you actually watch the product or just drool over the wrestlers sizes? Garcia is a gem.


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## The XL 2 (Sep 13, 2016)

I don't mind smaller guys going over bigger guys, but the way they do it is stupid. You'll see smaller guys just trade spots with the bigger guys, its like size doesn't even matter at all.


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## Krin (Apr 8, 2018)

hardcorewrasslin said:


> Do you actually watch the product or just drool over the wrestlers sizes? Garcia is a gem.


Did you actually read the thread? No , because if you did you'd know I said I don't watch the product. I'm giving a first impression as someone who rarely watches their product, and it was crap (not saying all of is crap, but those matches were). I just checked out a match he had in 205 Live and he lost to Drew Gulak and he didn't have this vicious monster character he has in AEW. He also wrestled Tyler Rust and wrestled as an underdog and I thought his selling was really good, which is how he should be booked against guys who have a size advantage.


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## Lorromire (Jun 17, 2014)

It's the character. He's being booked as a dangerous technical expert, which is the go-to to taking down larger opponents in the kayfabe world of wrestling. You can't overpower them, so you outwrestle them, which is what he does from what I've seen of his matches.

The kid has heaps of room for improvement and could do a better job of, well, basically everything, for sure. That'll come in time if he keeps up this pace. He is a heel btw.


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## hardcorewrasslin (Jun 29, 2016)

Krin said:


> Did you actually read the thread? No , because if you did you'd know I said* I don't watch the product.* I'm giving a first impression as someone who rarely watches their product, and it was crap (not saying all of is crap, but those matches were). I just checked out a match he had in 205 Live and he lost to Drew Gulak and he didn't have this vicious monster character he has in AEW. He also wrestled Tyler Rust and wrestled as an underdog and I thought his selling was really good, which is how he should be booked against guys who have a size advantage.


Then either watch it or kindly fuck off


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## Aedubya (Jul 12, 2019)

I love threads like this, makes it easy to know who to put on 'ignore'


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## Krin (Apr 8, 2018)

Lol sounds like some feathers have been rustled.


Lorromire said:


> It's the character. He's being booked as a dangerous technical expert, which is the go-to to taking down larger opponents in the kayfabe world of wrestling. You can't overpower them, so you outwrestle them


and he didn't do that. there was no outwrestling or a story of using skill over strength.

"dangerous techical expert" is the go-to for taking down big men since when? It's always been underdog with a heart of gold that gains momentum as the match builds, not a "dangerous expert". Even in the cases of that like say Daniel Bryan or Balor that can be considered experts a lot of their appeal was that theyre booked like underdogs and gain momentum from their selling.

EDIT - ok I see you said he's a heel, so the underdog thing wouldn't work in that case but there was still no story of skill vs strength in the match or the commentary.


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## thorn123 (Oct 10, 2019)

As a big AEW fan, I know what you are saying and I kind of agree ... there is no way I can believe lance archer would lose to jungle boy or darby allin. I don't mind the lightweights as long as they stay in their ball park (or cheat to win)......

Example jungle boy cannot beat Lance archer ... but I could believe jericho could beat archer, then mjf beat jericho and then jungle boy beat mjf ... so the lightweights can get a lookin if used properly.

The odd upset like sammy beating miro is ok, but I don't want to see it often

but you should give AEW more of a go - its very entertaining


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## One Shed (Jan 7, 2014)

Are we back to telling people to praise everything or stop watching again? How boring. Insulting physics is a valid criticism. AEW has gotten much better at not doing it, but they still do it sometimes.


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## JasmineAEW (Oct 19, 2020)

If you don’t watch AEW, that is perfectly fine. My advice to you would be to continue to not watch it. Just watch what you want to watch and be happy with that. I gave up watching the WWE a while back because I wasn’t enjoying it.


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## 5 Star Giulia ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ (Apr 21, 2014)

Krin said:


> View attachment 110487


*It wasn't just a gimmick:*


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## Lorromire (Jun 17, 2014)

Krin said:


> "dangerous techical expert" is the go-to for taking down big men since when? It's always been underdog with a heart of gold that gains momentum as the match builds, not a "dangerous expert". Even in the cases of that like say Daniel Bryan or Balor that can be considered experts a lot of their appeal was that theyre booked like underdogs and gain momentum from their selling.
> 
> EDIT - ok I see you said he's a heel, so the underdog thing wouldn't work in that case but there was still no story of skill vs strength in the match or the commentary.


I agree with you on him, Man. I'm just telling you what they're going for with his character.

Since forever? At least since the 80s as far as I can remember, the technical guys would use it as a way to cut down the bigger guys in those match-ups. They rarely won back then but it was still a thing.

And yeah, I noticed the lack of storytelling from the commentary too, but that's what they are going for with the kid.


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## Krin (Apr 8, 2018)

Lorromire said:


> I agree with you on him, Man. I'm just telling you what they're going for with his character.
> 
> Since forever? At least since the 80s as far as I can remember, the technical guys would use it as a way to cut down the bigger guys in those match-ups. They rarely won back then but it was still a thing.
> 
> And yeah, I noticed the lack of storytelling from the commentary too, but that's what they are going for with the kid.


maybe yes in a sense where the technical smaller guy would attack a limb, the legs to weaken the bigger guy and outwrestles him, outsmarts him, uses his speed, something like that. If that was the case and it was done well, I wouldn't have a problem with the match. That's not what happened though, it was just a beatdown squash match with zero offense from the other guy.


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## PhenomenalOne11 (Oct 2, 2016)

This is why you just do what I do, watch the stuff that appeals to you and skip the stuff that doesn't. Kenny Omega, The Young Bucks, Cody Rhodes, basically all of The Elite don't appeal to me so I just don't watch them, they bore me to death. It's why I avoid guys like Daniel Garcia, Dante Martin and the other guys who are all in-ring talent and no personality, it just doesn't appeal to me.

I'll watch MJF, Miro, Ricky Starks segments and maybe a Punk promo here and there. That's all I need.


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## CM Buck (Sep 2, 2012)

Krin said:


> maybe yes in a sense where the technical smaller guy would attack a limb, the legs to weaken the bigger guy and outwrestles him, outsmarts him, uses his speed, something like that. If that was the case and it was done well, I wouldn't have a problem with the match. That's not what happened though, it was just a beatdown squash match with zero offense from the other guy.


Yeah squash matches should be for bigger guys. With one exception. Have you heard of ZSJ? Zack sabre jnr?

He is a guy that realistically can destroy a guy with submissions and things. 

I believe that Garcia can get to that level if he watches some sabre tapes. His good but there's definite elements missing from his game


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## ProjectGargano (Apr 7, 2018)

Krin said:


> I don't watch AEW but I will occasionally to see a match of someone I follow and would want to see in NXT, like Brian Cage for example.
> 
> How the fuck is this
> 
> ...


Good that most of people don't agree with you. Look how the big guys on NXT are doing in the ratings. They barely can't reach the 600k.


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## Lorromire (Jun 17, 2014)

Krin said:


> maybe yes in a sense where the technical smaller guy would attack a limb, the legs to weaken the bigger guy and outwrestles him, outsmarts him, uses his speed, something like that. If that was the case and it was done well, I wouldn't have a problem with the match. That's not what happened though, it was just a beatdown squash match with zero offense from the other guy.


Which I agreed with, yeah. I was simply clarifying what his character was for you.


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## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

So I actually agree with OP. A smaller guy like that should only be strongly booked against those his size or smaller.

I don't look at that guy and think professional wrestler.


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## Geert Wilders (Jan 18, 2021)

I consider the guy in OP as a charity signing and nothing more.


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## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

Krin said:


> I don't watch AEW but I will occasionally to see a match of someone I follow and would want to see in NXT, like Brian Cage for example.
> 
> How the fuck is this
> 
> ...


You don’t like AEW?

Well shit. How will I ever watch the show knowing this nugget of priceless info!?


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## Gn1212 (May 17, 2012)

Krin said:


> I don't watch AEW but I will occasionally to see a match of someone I follow and would want to see in NXT, like Brian Cage for example.
> 
> How the fuck is this
> 
> ...


NXT fan slams an up and coming AEW pro wrestler for his look, a look that NXT was filled with when it used to be good.
In regards to Cage, have you seen the man wrestle? You're talking about catering to hardcore indy fans yet Cage himself is doing that. 
For a guy with his physique, he is completely oblivious about it and persists on awkwardly wrestling like a high flyer.


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## DaSlacker (Feb 9, 2020)

I kinda agree with the OP on this, that underdog vs big guy is overdone, so watched the Garcia and Kiss matches. 

In fairness they were OK for what they were. Sonny Kiss has improved.


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## mazzah20 (Oct 10, 2019)

OP must have been seething in disguist seeing Emma Raducanu win the US Open recently.


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## Krin (Apr 8, 2018)

Gn1212 said:


> NXT fan slams an up and coming AEW pro wrestler for his look, a look that NXT was filled with when it used to be good.
> In regards to Cage, have you seen the man wrestle? You're talking about catering to hardcore indy fans yet Cage himself is doing that.
> For a guy with his physique, he is completely oblivious about it and persists on awkwardly wrestling like a high flyer.


yes i blame that partly on him and partly on the roh / indy fanbase that glorifies that style of wrestling and eat it up. which probably motivated him to do all that stuff and dumb stuff like leo rush table spot is another example of high spots jumping the shark. he also was willing to lose to tessa blanchard. that said hes one of the few guys in aew along with rusev/miro iv seen that actually looks like a legit threat and powerhouse

and i still consider NXT good and moving in a better direction aside from the ugly color splash set


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## Erik. (Mar 17, 2014)

It really is okay not to like something, OP.

You get that, right?


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## DZ Crew (Sep 26, 2016)

ShadowCounter said:


> Then simply don't watch. Maybe wrestling isn't for you and sports entertainment is. Nothing wrong with that. Forunately for you there is already a place for watching big beefy guys slam into each other. It's called WWE...also...there's gay porn. So...


Yes because, taking a pizza cutter to someone's face, breaking light tubes over someone's body, dumping someone in a bathtub fill of mimosa and a video game themed match are all definitely real wrestling. The wwe definitely has it's share of cringe programming but let's not pretend AEW doesn't have a track record of putting on this "entertainment" either.


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## Klitschko (May 24, 2020)

Aedubya said:


> I love threads like this, makes it easy to know who to put on 'ignore'


Yep. Don't you wish real life was like that? Anybody that says something you don't agree with, IGNORE. That way nobody can ever hurt your little feelings and you can always stick within your bubble.


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## Sad Panda (Aug 16, 2021)

You must of been pissed watching Hart/Yoko or Michaels/Vader. In real life those guys would have no chance against either opponent no matter their technical prowess, mic skills or high flying ability. 

This is professional wrestling bro.

Sure Daniel Garcia doesn’t look the most menacing but they’re building him as a mix of Taz and Royce Gracie. I think it’s pretty intriguing and he has a ton of skill and a good floor to build on considering said skill set and his age.


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## Krin (Apr 8, 2018)

Sad Panda said:


> You must of been pissed watching Hart/Yoko or Michaels/Vader. In real life those guys would have no chance against either opponent no matter their technical prowess, mic skills or high flying ability.
> 
> This is professional wrestling bro.
> 
> Sure Daniel Garcia doesn’t look the most menacing but they’re building him as a mix of Taz and Royce Gracie. I think it’s pretty intriguing and he has a ton of skill and a good floor to build on considering said skill set and his age.


I didn't watch those matches no, but I'm going to assume they had some sort of storytelling or psychology in the match and not having HBK beatdown Vader in a quick, decisive squash. HBK was never booked as some monster, menacing force. He was a great storyteller and if he was taking someone like Vader down and he was the heel, I'd imagine he'd do something like a low blow, raking eyes, that sort of thing to get an advantage. Garcia didn't do any of that in the match I saw.

The WWE on the other hand were using him how he should be used in my opinion. As an underdog, and it really highlighted his selling. The match I saw on 205 Live from him was completely different than how he's used on AEW. You need to be able to connect visually to your character, and he doesn't to me. I'm sure to a lot of AEW fans, they don't care how a wrestler looks. To me it does matter. It would be like if you took Humberto Carillo or Lio Rush and made them this menacing, unforgiving fearless force that destroys guys like LA Knight,Bobby Roode and Cesaro in 2 minutes in a complete squash where they get no offense. Which to me would look absolutely ridiculous, and is how I felt about this Garcia guy when he made his entrance staring into the camera like he's The Undertaker or Ken Shamrock. Make it make sense. Is there a reason why he has this type of overbearing character? Like a storyline/feud that drove him to be that way? Or is he like that just because?


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## Drae_phenom (Apr 13, 2021)

This is the only thing I hate about AEW. I hate Dark Elevation because it's so predictable. I saw Sonny Kiss beat a guy 2 times his size with a weak move. Please stop using mean words to describe others, it's wrong. Garcia puts in the work, he is not the biggest, so is he supposed to lose every match?


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## the_flock (Nov 23, 2016)

ECW used to portray a 5 foot nothing Taz as a big monster, the difference is Taz looked legit. 

I have no idea who this dweeb is, but by gawd he looks like shit.


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## Soul Rex (Nov 26, 2017)

ShadowCounter said:


> Then simply don't watch. Maybe wrestling isn't for you and sports entertainment is. Nothing wrong with that. Forunately for you there is already a place for watching big beefy guys slam into each other. It's called WWE...also...there's gay porn. So...


Why do you talk about tastes like you wasn't the gay one, watching oiled geeks and midgets in underwear fake fighting just for the "sake of its art" it's way less hetero than watching bodybuilding, at least they know what they are appreciating.

What do you all neckbears are so proud of? Watching geeks beating bigger men in a fake show to satisfy you inferiority complex is weird as fuck, fucking kinky nerds.


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## GothicBohemian (May 26, 2012)

Daniel Garcia is a very promising work in progress. He's young and still fairly new to pro wrestling yet he's booked in matches against established stars both in AEW and on the indie circuit. Why? Because he has raw talent that makes him stand out. People want to work with him because they see what he's becoming. Top pros want to help him develop his career but they also recognize how he's already able to hang with them in the ring - he does his fair share in presenting great matches when he's in there with them. No, he's not a huge guy. That's not ever going to be his thing. What he brings are intensity and beautifully crisp moves. He has a lot of old school in him and yet he feels fresh. 

Daniel Garcia is, to me, yet another star of the future for AEW, coming along right behind the ones they've snatched up previously. Darby Allin, for instance, is another small indie guy and yet here he is main eventing shows on national television because his other skills make up for his lack of body weight. Dante Martin, even younger than Garcia, is being developed in AEW now too. I'm happy that there's now a true professional option for guys who have unique skills (Dante) or who just innately understand how pro wrestling works even if they aren't giants (Darby, Danny).


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## Seafort (Jun 5, 2014)

HBK Styles Ospreay said:


> Anyone that calls themselves '1 man thrill ride' deserves to get their ass kicked.
> 
> Having said that I don't get the Daniel Garcia love and why he's all over AEW and a bunch of Indies lately. To me he's just a skinny guy that does boring submission matches, so basically Zack Sabre Jr.


There’s something there. Like with Cody in 2007 he is undersized. But I like the facial mannerisms and intensity. He’s not a babyface by any means in the future. If anything, likely more of a sadistic, cruel character. AEW might be going a bit fast with him and he’ll need to put on some size, but it was a good long-term signing for AEW.


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## Pentagon Senior (Nov 16, 2019)

GothicBohemian said:


> Daniel Garcia is, to me, yet another star of the future for AEW, coming along right behind the ones they've snatched up previously. Darby Allin, for instance, is another small indie guy and yet here he is main eventing shows on national television because his other skills make up for his lack of body weight. Dante Martin, even younger than Garcia, is being developed in AEW now too. I'm happy that there's now a true professional option for guys who have unique skills (Dante) or who just innately understand how pro wrestling works even if they aren't giants (Darby, Danny).


Great point that I've not really thought of before. These smaller talented guys now have a clearer route to becoming household names (in the wrestling world) which is a pretty sweet thought


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## Krin (Apr 8, 2018)

So I'll ask again since nobody answered. Is there a storyline reason why Danny Garcia has this unrelenting, methodical, fearless monster character? Like a feud or angle that caused him to be that way? Or is it just because?

Xia Li, as terrible and unconvincing as she is playing that monster type of Mortal Kombat heel being the size she is, atleast there was a storyline that explained why she became like that, vignettes and such. It will 100% fail but atleast there was some logic to it. Is there for Danny Garcia? 



the_flock said:


> ECW used to portray a 5 foot nothing Taz as a big monster, the difference is Taz looked legit.


exactly, Taz is a great example of being small but still being convincing. Garcia is nothing like Taz. He doesn't even have as strong of a look as Jamie Noble or Kid Kash. He reminds me more of Zach Gowen, The Amazing Red or Paul London.


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## Shock Street (Oct 27, 2020)

Krin said:


> So I'll ask again since nobody answered. Is there a storyline reason why Danny Garcia has this unrelenting, methodical, fearless monster character? Like a feud or angle that caused him to be that way? Or is it just because?


Unless they said it on Dark, he just kinda crept in with 2.0 who also just showed up one night. The tweet below was quite literally their first appearance on AEW:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1422732946251915265
I really don't see anything in this guy either, even though I find his pals 2.0 entertaining on the mic.


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## Thomazbr (Apr 26, 2009)

No, I don't believe Mr Thrill Ride is a kickass dude.
I'm sorry but we're living in the age where most legitimate martial artists as lithe slim dudes and not bodybuilding beefcakes.


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## Gn1212 (May 17, 2012)

Krin said:


> So I'll ask again since nobody answered. Is there a storyline reason why Danny Garcia has this unrelenting, methodical, fearless monster character? Like a feud or angle that caused him to be that way? Or is it just because?
> 
> Xia Li, as terrible and unconvincing as she is playing that monster type of Mortal Kombat heel being the size she is, atleast there was a storyline that explained why she became like that, vignettes and such. It will 100% fail but atleast there was some logic to it. Is there for Danny Garcia?
> 
> ...


Where do you get off the monster character? 
He's a confident young wrestler that has a very interesting mean streak in him.
From what I've heard so far he has a very good rep backstage and top stars themselves seem to want to work with him.


----------



## Klitschko (May 24, 2020)

Krin said:


> So I'll ask again since nobody answered. Is there a storyline reason why Danny Garcia has this unrelenting, methodical, fearless monster character? Like a feud or angle that caused him to be that way? Or is it just because?
> 
> Xia Li, as terrible and unconvincing as she is playing that monster type of Mortal Kombat heel being the size she is, atleast there was a storyline that explained why she became like that, vignettes and such. It will 100% fail but atleast there was some logic to it. Is there for Danny Garcia?
> 
> ...


He has little man syndrome.


----------



## GothicBohemian (May 26, 2012)

Krin said:


> So I'll ask again since nobody answered. Is there a storyline reason why Danny Garcia has this unrelenting, methodical, fearless monster character? Like a feud or angle that caused him to be that way? Or is it just because?
> 
> Xia Li, as terrible and unconvincing as she is playing that monster type of Mortal Kombat heel being the size she is, atleast there was a storyline that explained why she became like that, vignettes and such. It will 100% fail but atleast there was some logic to it. Is there for Danny Garcia?


He's not booked as a monster on tv. On Dark and Elevation, the shows are more about building win/loss records for everyone and character development for full-time current enhancement talent. Since they need a justification for Garcia getting big matches, he wins his youtube ones. It's not complicated. 

The Sonny Kiss situation is also all about the internet versus television; Sonny is one of the regular enhancement folks that have a fan following. They get storylines on the secondary shows that help them with crowd reactions when they do show up on television. They also need wins because AEW doesn't do as many squashes as some other promotions so they'll be in competitive matches against upper card names from time to time. Someone who doesn't follow AEW might not know that half the people on any given Dark/Elevation may be there on a tryout basis or just as a one-off appearance and they won't normally win against the roster members, even the enhancement ones. Those folks are still usually established indie workers though, so they'll show up with characters and often pro looks that make them seem pretty legit. 

Back to Garcia: Since arriving, he and 2Point0 have been about disrupting the existing AEW pecking order. They're portrayed as guys who came in to prove they are just as good, if not better, than the AEW main eventers. In 2Point0's case, they talk big but tend to be put in their place by established talent. Garcia goes into matches cock,y but in a focused way, while his higher-ranked opponents kayfabe expect to knock him down a few notches. The story is that he almost does live up to his own hype - he's the real deal and the matches tend to be competitive. Even though he loses against the stars, he gains their respect due to his technical wrestling skill. He's a heel who we're primed to see as dangerous, perhaps apt to try something questionable such as pull off a deliberately injury-causing hold, to win. That's not a monster, that's a tough, technical matt wrestler guy. A meaner, younger, more volatile, less accomplished Bryan Danielson in some ways.


----------



## JeSeGaN (Jun 5, 2018)

Look at this scrawny geek trying so hard to be a prime Samoa Joe...

Lmfao, it's friggin' hilarious.


----------



## Soul Rex (Nov 26, 2017)

Thomazbr said:


> No, I don't believe Mr Thrill Ride is a kickass dude.
> *I'm sorry but we're living in the age where most legitimate martial artists as lithe slim dudes and not bodybuilding beefcakes.*


Slim and short legitimate martial artist are not fighting other martial artists the size of a bodybuilder, MMA has weight divisions for a reason, I don't know what the fuck you are talking about, size matters in this age and any other.


----------



## Thomazbr (Apr 26, 2009)

Soul Rex said:


> Slim and short legitimate martial artist are not fighting other martial artists the size of a bodybuilder, MMA has weight divisions for a reason, I don't know what the fuck you are talking about, size matters in this age and any other.


Sure of course weight matters in real sports but even then, heavyweights don't look like bodybuilders.
The vast majority of the heavyweights are dadbods.

































Let's face it
The actual bodybuilding physique is a rarity in combat sports. So no I'm not really impressed by a bodybuilder physique in wrestling. As far as I'm concerned it doesn't really show someone as a, particularly threatening wrestler.
Heavyweights division isn't even the premier division people watch nowadays. Lightweight and Welterweights have the biggest draws in UFC.


----------



## Thomazbr (Apr 26, 2009)

The whole "turn your head at the airport" means nothing in combat sports anyway
I'll cross through a Fedor or a Cormier or a Jon Jones or a Conor or an Anderson Silva or a Crocop or a Stipe or a Jose Aldo or a GSP or a Masvidal in an airport and they wouldn't even register in my life.
The average high-ranking fighter is in decent shape for sure but they are overwhelmingly just dudes dudying it up.


----------



## Soul Rex (Nov 26, 2017)

Thomazbr said:


> Sure of course weight matters in real sports but even then, heavyweights don't look like bodybuilders.
> The vast majority of the heavyweights are dadbods.
> View attachment 110589
> 
> ...


You are going to pick some of the worst looking HWs to fit your narrative, but many others HW's look/looked legit

Nganou, Overeem, Mirko Cro cop, Dos Santos, Lesnar, etc. A Bunch of fighters look like legit athletes that could fuck you up... Of course, nobody is saying looking like a bodybuilder should the mandate.

But if you are a wrestler, you should look legit and look the apart.






> Heavyweights division isn't even the premier division people watch nowadays. Lightweight and Welterweights have the biggest draws in UFC.


It doesn't even matter because these people fight other people their own weight, weight divisions don't make your argument on size doesn't matter, it's the opposite.

A guy that is 5 ft 9 and 170 lbs looks legit against other guy his size and can easily become a draw.. . But that would never happen if he had to do cross division and fight guys 50 lbs heavier than them.


----------



## Krin (Apr 8, 2018)

here's the difference

Taz - no MMA background, has a convincing look
Kyle Orielly - has MMA background, does not have a convincing look
Ken Shamrock - has MMA background, has a convincing look

Daniel Garcia- no MMA background, does not have a convincing look.



Thomazbr said:


> Sure of course weight matters in real sports but even then, heavyweights don't look like bodybuilders.
> The vast majority of the heavyweights are dadbods.


a wrestler doesn't need to necessarily look like a bodybuilder. Samoa Joe and Taz never did but they still looked legit.


----------



## ThenWo/WCW (Jan 8, 2014)

half of the roster
Dwarves without charisma

That's why most weeks aew under a million viewers


----------



## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

the_flock said:


> ECW used to portray a 5 foot nothing Taz as a big monster, the difference is Taz looked legit.
> 
> I have no idea who this dweeb is, but by gawd he looks like shit.


Taz was in really good shape though. Back in the day he wasn't a guy seen as being in really good shape but these days 1998 Taz would probably put 70-80% of AEW's roster to shame and he was considered a smaller guy back then for wrestling.



GothicBohemian said:


> Daniel Garcia is, to me, yet another star of the future for AEW, coming along right behind the ones they've snatched up previously. Darby Allin, for instance, is another small indie guy and yet here he is main eventing shows on national television because his other skills make up for his lack of body weight. Dante Martin, even younger than Garcia, is being developed in AEW now too. I'm happy that there's now a true professional option for guys who have unique skills (Dante) or who just innately understand how pro wrestling works even if they aren't giants (Darby, Danny).


These guys won't ever become stars to a true mainstream audience. People would look at Darby or a Daniel Garcia, say "He's a wrestler? Ha. I remember Hulk Hogan" and they will move on...


----------



## CM Buck (Sep 2, 2012)

Chip Chipperson said:


> Taz was in really good shape though. Back in the day he wasn't a guy seen as being in really good shape but these days 1998 Taz would probably put 70-80% of AEW's roster to shame and he was considered a smaller guy back then for wrestling.
> 
> 
> 
> These guys won't ever become stars to a true mainstream audience. People would look at Darby or a Daniel Garcia, say "He's a wrestler? Ha. I remember Hulk Hogan" and they will move on...


Am I doing this wrestling fan thing wrong? I'm meant to write off Garcia and call him a shit wrestler Cause he isn't raided up ?


----------



## Nickademus_Eternal (Feb 24, 2014)

Krin said:


> I don't watch AEW but I will occasionally to see a match of someone I follow and would want to see in NXT, like Brian Cage for example.
> 
> How the fuck is this
> 
> ...


Just proves you never been in a real fight. Little dudes have beaten bigger dudes all the time. You fuckers on here are weird with the size and muscle fetish. Guess you need something to cling on to huh?


----------



## Nickademus_Eternal (Feb 24, 2014)

The XL 2 said:


> I don't mind smaller guys going over bigger guys, but the way they do it is stupid. You'll see smaller guys just trade spots with the bigger guys, its like size doesn't even matter at all.


It don't tbh.


----------



## Nickademus_Eternal (Feb 24, 2014)

I'm starting to hate wrestling fans because they complain about everything. Even about people liking what they like. I have an idea. If you don't like it so much like you claim you do, why keep watching it. You watch just to complain about everything the next day?


----------



## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

Firefromthegods said:


> Am I doing this wrestling fan thing wrong? I'm meant to write off Garcia and call him a shit wrestler Cause he isn't raided up ?


I'm not talking about how good he is as a wrestler just how marketable and believable he is. The answer is not very.



Nickademus_Eternal said:


> I'm starting to hate wrestling fans because they complain about everything. Even about people liking what they like. I have an idea. If you don't like it so much like you claim you do, why keep watching it. You watch just to complain about everything the next day?


I don't think I'd be encouraging people to stop tuning into AEW, bro. I don't think they can afford to lose too many more people.


----------



## The XL 2 (Sep 13, 2016)

Nickademus_Eternal said:


> It don't tbh.


Size absolutely matters in a fight. Its not the end all be all but it matters a lot. If Conor McGregor tried to trade punches with Francis Ngannou, he'd be dead within seconds.


----------



## CM Buck (Sep 2, 2012)

Chip Chipperson said:


> I'm not talking about how good he is as a wrestler just how marketable and believable he is. The answer is not very.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think I'd be encouraging people to stop tuning into AEW, bro. I don't think they can afford to lose too many more people.


His 22 bro. You don't know that. Who would have thought Bryan would have been marketable at 22?


----------



## Nickademus_Eternal (Feb 24, 2014)

Chip Chipperson said:


> I'm not talking about how good he is as a wrestler just how marketable and believable he is. The answer is not very.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think I'd be encouraging people to stop tuning into AEW, bro. I don't think they can afford to lose too many more people.


Idgaf about them. They can watch wtf they want. Don't matter to me. What I'm saying is, if you fuckers hate it so much, why keep watching it? So you can complain to the whole world the next day about how much you dislike it? Don't make sense to me. If I didn't like something, I'm not gonna watch it or complain about it in every thread. Know why? Because I'll be wasting my time.


----------



## Nickademus_Eternal (Feb 24, 2014)

The XL 2 said:


> Size absolutely matters in a fight. Its not the end all be all but it matters a lot. If Conor McGregor tried to trade punches with Francis Ngannou, he'd be dead within seconds.


I'm not talking about competitive fighting. Size does not matter in a fist fight. You can get tour ass whooped by someone smaller and bigger. I've seen it many times. But I don't live in the fairy tale world and think every big man is unbeatable and every small man is no competition. Anybody can get it any day of the week. It's life. This is wrestling dude. Not UFC. You expect realism out of an industry that produced Deadmen,plumbers,demons,police officers and a dude who seen an Invisible dude named jimmy. The rest of us knows what's up.


----------



## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

Firefromthegods said:


> His 22 bro. You don't know that. Who would have thought Bryan would have been marketable at 22?


He had WWE tryouts at 22 and got picked up by ROH so safe to say the industry thought he would be a star.

I hate wrestlers who look like I could see them bagging up groceries at the supermarket. Garcia has that look.



Nickademus_Eternal said:


> Idgaf about them. They can watch wtf they want. Don't matter to me. What I'm saying is, if you fuckers hate it so much, why keep watching it? So you can complain to the whole world the next day about how much you dislike it? Don't make sense to me. If I didn't like something, I'm not gonna watch it or complain about it in every thread. Know why? Because I'll be wasting my time.


Most of us don't watch it anymore. I read the results and follow AEW on this forum these days.


----------



## CM Buck (Sep 2, 2012)

Chip Chipperson said:


> He had WWE tryouts at 22 and got picked up by ROH so safe to say the industry thought he would be a star.
> 
> I hate wrestlers who look like I could see them bagging up groceries at the supermarket. Garcia has that look.
> 
> ...


Yeah but you honestly don't think he can pack on muscle by the time he reaches his peak?


----------



## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

Firefromthegods said:


> Yeah but you honestly don't think he can pack on muscle by the time he reaches his peak?


Don't know, probably could but he shouldn't be on TV if he doesn't look the part.


----------



## CM Buck (Sep 2, 2012)

Chip Chipperson said:


> Don't know, probably could but he shouldn't be on TV if he doesn't look the part.


Look is only 5 percent of wrestling dude.


----------



## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

This is the peak male form at the moment

gtfo with that bodybuilder BS


----------



## Krin (Apr 8, 2018)

People clearly aren't reading the thread, they're just clinging onto tired arguments. I said in the first sentence of my post I don't watch the product. This was one of the rare times I happened to catch it and gave it a chance. so GTFO with the "why do you keep watching it then?" nonsense. 

The "wrestlers dont need to look like bodybuilders. Not all fighters look like bodybuilders!!" stuff, gee ya don't say? already mentioned Samoa Joe and Taz as 2 guys who aren't bodybuilders but still look convincing for their gimmicks.

And no, a wrestler's look isn't 5% of what goes into being a wrestler, it's more like 50%.


----------



## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

Firefromthegods said:


> Look is only 5 percent of wrestling dude.


Completely untrue. There is a reason that most major wrestling stars over the past 30-40 years looked like athletes.



LifeInCattleClass said:


> This is the peak male form at the moment
> 
> gtfo with that bodybuilder BS
> 
> View attachment 110602


It isn't about being a bodybuilder but this dude legit looks like someone you would not fuck with. He's 6'9 inches tall, he is 121 kilograms, he looks like he's been in a thousand fights (Because he has, lol) and if most people saw a bloke like that in an alley they would be shitting themselves hoping he's a nice guy because if he isn't a nice guy he could rip most men apart.

Daniel Garcia is maybe 75 KG and is about 5'7. Says it all really.


----------



## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

Chip Chipperson said:


> Completely untrue. There is a reason that most major wrestling stars over the past 30-40 years looked like athletes.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sugar Ray Leonard was 72 KGs

the reason the size guys can never win this argument is

1. There are more than enough examples of absolute IRL badasses of all shapes and sizes in boxing, ufc, mma and plenty other
2. There are almost no bodybuilder physiques in IRL boxing or fighting - at least not at the top of the card
3. Movies teaches us that in fake fighting anybody can beat anybody, regardless of size, gender or anything else
4. Wrestling is simulated theatre fighting, and it does not matter the size etc - what matters is getting over - wrestling also has taught us that the underdog and smaller guy can beat the bigger guy for 100 years now

and that is that really


----------



## the_flock (Nov 23, 2016)

Firefromthegods said:


> His 22 bro. You don't know that. Who would have thought Bryan would have been marketable at 22?


Age is irrelevant. You either have it or you don't. Not everyone is going to make it big in the industry.


----------



## the_flock (Nov 23, 2016)

Firefromthegods said:


> Look is only 5 percent of wrestling dude.


I disagree. Looks in the wrestling industry are probably more like 60%.


----------



## the_flock (Nov 23, 2016)

LifeInCattleClass said:


> This is the peak male form at the moment
> 
> gtfo with that bodybuilder BS
> 
> View attachment 110602


Is Tyson Fury a 5 foot 7 inch dweeb pretending to be a bad ass. Fury might not be jacked, but he still has an insane amount of muscle and strength.


----------



## RapShepard (Jun 20, 2014)

Look matters in wrestling especially when it comes to looking the part of the character you play. A lot of folk here seem to like Malakai Black. Does anybody think the character is as believable if Matt Riddle was portraying it?

Garcia right now has the issue of looking uninteresting and being uninteresting character wise. I mean sure he has time to grow into something. But right now he's a hard sell to anybody that isn't super into work rate.


----------



## CM Buck (Sep 2, 2012)

Chip Chipperson said:


> Completely untrue. There is a reason that most major wrestling stars over the past 30-40 years looked like athletes.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Then why did lex luger fail as the next Hogan? Why did mason Ryan? Why did Roman struggle as the face of wwe.

@the_flock you and Chip may have got into wrestling for the looks but I've always priotised character and story above all else.

Making the look the most important thing is why we have had so many steroid deaths. One of my current favourites is Alexander hammerstone. He is built like a brick shithouse but he is able to engage the audience in a way very few can nowadays.

That is what's most important lads. Audience engagement. Otherwise wrestling is no better than body building

Chip you shit on Darby cause you like your wrestlers to be veins and shit but he can engage an audience 10 times better than Brian cage can


----------



## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

Firefromthegods said:


> Then why did lex luger fail as the next Hogan? Why did mason Ryan? Why did Roman struggle as the face of wwe.
> 
> @the_flock you and Chip may have got into wrestling for the looks but I've always priotised character and story above all else.
> 
> ...


I'm not saying look is the only thing that matters but look at the faces of the WWF over the decades:

Bruno Sammartino - In shape, strong, good physique

Hulk Hogan - Out of his mind jacked

Shawn Michaels - Smaller but still in very good shape and bigger than the average human being

Stone Cold - Jacked

The Rock - Jacked

John Cena - Jacked

Batista - Jacked

Roman - Jacked

---

Even Bryan Danielson and CM Punk who are the smallest main eventers the WWE has ever seen are still bigger than the average human being. Punk had a shitty physique but he was still bigger than most men walking around.

Darby, Garcia etc are guys who are not larger than life and have the physiques of teenagers. There'd be a 15 year old football player out there who probably looks at a Darby or Garcia and goes "Those guys are my size and they're pro wrestlers?!"

To smart marks they don't care but I assure you everyone else does.


----------



## Pentagon Senior (Nov 16, 2019)

Will be genuinely interesting to look back at threads like this in a few years time. Lot's of people writing the guy off wayyy to early. If Daniel Bryan can develop into one of the industry's top stars I see no reason why Garcia can't (that may involve working on physique btw). 

The big man v little man thing is something you have to treat with care in wrestling but when it's on a Dark show (which I don't even watch) it's largely irrelevant imo.


----------



## CM Buck (Sep 2, 2012)

Chip Chipperson said:


> I'm not saying look is the only thing that matters but look at the faces of the WWF over the decades:
> 
> Bruno Sammartino - In shape, strong, good physique
> 
> ...


You aren't a smart mark? Since when?

Expllain why wrestling is looked down on and why it's not talked about regularly everywhere? Because when I was a kid during Austin times wrestling was not cool. It was niche.

So if wrestling is niche and always has been, why should we attract fans that despise wrestling? 

You think they will look at Roman and just suddenly get why we enjoy guys groping each other in underpants?


----------



## Soul Rex (Nov 26, 2017)

LifeInCattleClass said:


> This is the peak male form at the moment
> 
> gtfo with that bodybuilder BS
> 
> View attachment 110602


This man 6 ft 9.


----------



## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

Firefromthegods said:


> You aren't a smart mark? Since when?
> 
> Expllain why wrestling is looked down on and why it's not talked about regularly everywhere? Because when I was a kid during Austin times wrestling was not cool. It was niche.
> 
> ...


I haven't been a smart mark for a long time brother, I'm in the business now and have been for over a decade.

In regards to why wrestling isn't mainstream anymore all we have to do is look at this graph from a study:










This pretty much proves a number of things but perhaps most importantly is that people preferred the 2-3 star matches Austin brought in 1999-2000 over the Meltzer 5 star classics we have today. It also indicates that the characters and stories weren't as good and that it all was too cartoonish.

Are you asking how to attract new fans? Simple. Do better stories, give better characters and be more real. Nobody gives a fuck about a 5'7 skinny dweeb running around doing coffin drops except smart marks who will tune in regardless.


----------



## CM Buck (Sep 2, 2012)

Chip Chipperson said:


> I haven't been a smart mark for a long time brother, I'm in the business now and have been for over a decade.
> 
> In regards to why wrestling isn't mainstream anymore all we have to do is look at this graph from a study:
> 
> ...


Dude wrestling is still guys getting oiled up and trying to climb on top of each other. You could have a roster of handsome, Greek gods and wrestling would still be niche.


----------



## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

Firefromthegods said:


> Dude wrestling is still guys getting oiled up and trying to climb on top of each other. You could have a roster of handsome, Greek gods and wrestling would still be niche.


Give some storylines and give the people a reason to care and wrestling will come back. I can't remember the last hot wrestling story someone did.


----------



## CM Buck (Sep 2, 2012)

Chip Chipperson said:


> Give some storylines and give the people a reason to care and wrestling will come back. I can't remember the last hot wrestling story someone did.


I don't see professional wrestling becoming universally praised ever. I've accepted that wrestling is niche. But hey I can't fault you for wanting wrestling to be as loved as reality shows


----------



## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

Firefromthegods said:


> I've accepted that wrestling is niche.


And that's why in 30-40 years wrestling may very well be dead.


----------



## Ayres (May 26, 2020)

I can’t stand these 3. These three will be perfect for YouTube but not dyamite


----------



## CM Buck (Sep 2, 2012)

Chip Chipperson said:


> And that's why in 30-40 years wrestling may very well be dead.


Nah. It means we need this current generation to all succeed in Hollywood


----------



## Honey Bucket (Jul 3, 2012)

Garcia is a hot prospect and has got a chance to work with many of the current top names, but I can understand why folks could turn their nose up at him. He is an extraordinary worker (not just for his age) but his size is a big detriment. I’m definitely no ‘size mark’ - matched against similiar sized workers then there would be no issue, but against the bigger and beefier workers then you can kinda sense how lopsided it is. 

Again I reiterate, not just a size thing. I reckon Garcia could easily match up against your bigger more sluggish opponents (say like a Heidenreich or whatever), but bigger, agile and heavily skilled athletes it is a little difficult to suspend that disbelief. Fortunately there doesn’t seem to be too many of them on the AEW roster at the moment, so they can easily book him around them and focus on the average sized dudes like your Coles, Bryans etc.

He is only 22 though, which cannot be stressed enough. 22 is practically childlike in the modern era where guys don’t seem to hit their peak until early to mid 30s. Plenty of time to bulk up and gain some experience.


----------



## Pentagon Senior (Nov 16, 2019)

There's every likelihood that wrestling won't be 'mainstream' again during our lifetimes. It's a shame if that is the deciding factor in whether people enjoy it or not and seems like a strange hill to die upon. 

Some of the most fun I've had watching wrestling in the last 20 years was Lucha Underground which was the nichest of the niche. Enjoy what you enjoy and if you don't enjoy it maybe move on to something else.


----------



## Krin (Apr 8, 2018)

Firefromthegods said:


> You aren't a smart mark? Since when?
> 
> Expllain why wrestling is looked down on and why it's not talked about regularly everywhere? Because when I was a kid during Austin times wrestling was not cool. It was niche.
> 
> ...


here you go again with more bullshit. First claiming a wrestlers look is only 5% of what goes into being a wrestler and then _"wrestling wasn't cool, even during the Austin times"_.

That simply isn't true. Don't know your definition of "cool" is but wrestling was massively popular with all different age groups then and one of the highest rated cable programing. Wrestlers were appearing all over late night talk shows, shows like Howard Stern, etc. It was all over the place. Maybe where YOU were a kid, and where you grew up wrestling wasn't seen as cool. Almost everywhere else, wrestling programming was exploding in 98 and extremely popular.



Pentagon Senior said:


> Enjoy what you enjoy and if you don't enjoy it maybe move on to something else.


very first sentence of my post says I don't watch their product or follow it so "move onto something else" doesn't really apply here.



Honey Bucket said:


> He is only 22 though, which cannot be stressed enough. 22 is practically childlike in the modern era where guys don’t seem to hit their peak until early to mid 30s. Plenty of time to bulk up and gain some experience.


him being only 22 is even more reason why the booking and gimmick he has completely conflicts with what he is and makes it even less convincing.


----------



## GothicBohemian (May 26, 2012)

Chip Chipperson said:


> These guys won't ever become stars to a true mainstream audience. People would look at Darby or a Daniel Garcia, say "He's a wrestler? Ha. I remember Hulk Hogan" and they will move on...


Darby does have fans and wide appeal though. In his case, it's part character - a lot of people, especially kids, love his brooding emo skater persona - and part his daredevil moves. No one makes those moves look as real as Darby does. Under all the face paint and easy-to-market character, there's someone who gets what pro wrestling is all about. He sells for his opponents. He makes babyface comebacks. He can switch up his style between high flyer and grappler depending on the match structure. He's not a great talker and he isn't huge but what he does have is special enough to make him stand out. He's this generation's Jeff Hardy (just smaller, but that's ok). 

You may not see much in Garcia yet but a lot of influential people within the wrestling scene do. He's been getting high-profile booking outside AEW, even as a young, relatively inexperienced, smaller guy. I know you view the industry through the lens of a booker who has a preference for traditional pro wrestling, not that of a modern pro wrestler but Garcia is getting high praise from people who know today's business from the in-ring perspective. 

It seems that Garcia is sort of polarizing. Reactions to him often (NOT always, just on average) indicated a person's ideas about what pro wrestling should be.


----------



## Pentagon Senior (Nov 16, 2019)

Krin said:


> very first sentence of my post says I don't watch their product or follow it so "move onto something else" doesn't really apply here.


That's fair, I was speaking more in the general context of wrestling fans lamenting over it not being mainstream and using that as justification for whatever they personally feel is 'wrong' with wrestling. There's examples in this thread and we see it discussed often on the forum. We are fortunate in that there's various options available to us today, whether you're into physical looks and traditional style or indy stuff etc.


----------



## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

GothicBohemian said:


> I know you view the industry through the lens of a booker who has a preference for traditional pro wrestling, not that of a modern pro wrestler but Garcia is getting high praise from people who know today's business from the in-ring perspective.


I think many people would be surprised at the shows I put on to be honest. Regardless of that, nobody is really commenting on his in ring work mainly just his look and marketability which he doesn't have.


----------



## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

oof - bookmark this thread for when people sing his praises universally in 2 years

kid is a young Danielson


----------



## CM Buck (Sep 2, 2012)

Krin said:


> here you go again with more bullshit. First claiming a wrestlers look is only 5% of what goes into being a wrestler and then _"wrestling wasn't cool, even during the Austin times"_.
> 
> That simply isn't true. Don't know your definition of "cool" is but wrestling was massively popular with all different age groups then and one of the highest rated cable programing. Wrestlers were appearing all over late night talk shows, shows like Howard Stern, etc. It was all over the place. Maybe where YOU were a kid, and where you grew up wrestling wasn't seen as cool. Almost everywhere else, wrestling programming was exploding in 98 and extremely popular.
> 
> ...


That's the thing though. It's not just a lack of larger than life characters. Wrestling has always been a counter culture thing. You want Wrestling to be popular again they have to stop catering to culture and start being counter culture.

Modern society being the way it is is crying out for escapism. To destroy cultural norms.

Can Garcia usher in a new era? Certainly not. But an abundance of dudes not "looking the part" is not pro wrestling's biggest problem. Wrestling being nerdy isn't the problem. It's trying to fit in with the dredges of society.

The idea of wrestling being mainstream pisses me off cause it goes against everything that makes it so fun


----------



## Krin (Apr 8, 2018)

Firefromthegods said:


> That's the thing though. It's not just a lack of larger than life characters. Wrestling has always been a counter culture thing. You want Wrestling to be popular again they have to stop catering to culture and start being counter culture.


I agree with "they need to stop catering to the culture" and by that, I mean the indy & intervet fans that eat that type of stuff up, the high spot style, dives, lack of psychology and more emphasis on big spots and loud strikes, overuse of knee slaps,vanilla looking cruisterweights dominating people in squash matches. That's the culture that needs to be countered in wrestling. and this is the case with WWE as well but at least it's starting to change on NXT which is a good move imo


----------



## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

Krin said:


> I agree with "they need to stop catering to the culture" and by that, I mean the indy & intervet fans that eat that type of stuff up, the high spot style, dives, lack of psychology and more emphasis on big spots and loud strikes, overuse of knee slaps,vanilla looking cruisterweights dominating people in squash matches. That's the culture that needs to be countered in wrestling. and this is the case with WWE as well but at least it's starting to change on NXT which is a good move imo


great, change that and there’ll be nobody left

it’ll all be NWA crowds

you guys are always so sure these suggestions will work, but there is not one major company following old school and succeeding

the times are done, move on


----------



## Krin (Apr 8, 2018)

LifeInCattleClass said:


> great, change that and there’ll be nobody left
> 
> it’ll all be NWA crowds
> 
> ...


WWE still does follow old school approach to wrestling despite all the indy inspired shit. It's always been entertainment oriented over workrate as long as Vince is in charge.


----------



## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

Krin said:


> WWE still does follow old school approach to wrestling despite all the indy inspired shit. It's always been entertainment oriented over workrate as long as Vince is in charge.


its been very workrate focused for about 10 years now - not like NJPW of course but they are not old school at all any more

but even if you disagree - then there is your answer - there is one 'old school' company. We definitely don't need 2

AEW would be better off doing their own thing


----------



## RainmakerV2 (Nov 8, 2017)

LifeInCattleClass said:


> Sugar Ray Leonard was 72 KGs
> 
> the reason the size guys can never win this argument is
> 
> ...



The reason that bringing up boxing or MMA when it comes to this argument is always fucking stupid is because boxing and MMA have WEIGHT CLASSES. They're going up against guys the same size. Yeah. Conor McGregor is probably a way more skilled fighter than Brock Lesnar, but put them in a cage together. Who's winning? Its simple physics and anatomy. Sugar Ray Leonard, great fighter, sure, but Tyson Fury could beat him with one arm. Again, just simple physics and anatomy. 

Sure, are there ultra badass small dudes who can beat people way bigger than them? Sure. But the vast majority of the time in any kind of combat, a very skilled 150 pound dude is going to get his ass kicked by a 250 pound dude, skilled or no skill.

And really what we're talking about isnt SMALL dudes, it's PUNY dudes. HBK is small when it comes to the grand scheme of pro wrestling, but he was thick as shit and ripped to the bone in his prime. Same with Daniel Bryan, small in the grand scheme of things, but he looks like an athlete that goes to the gym, has strength, and takes care of himself. Sell to me a story that has someone like Adam Cole beating Bobby Lashley or Roman Reigns that is in any way believable. It doesn't exist. At some point you insult the audiences intelligence and it looks stupid. And that's fine for the core of AEW smark fans as long as "the match is good, they do a bunch of moves and Meltzer likes it.." but you're never gonna expand your audience that way. And maybe you don't care about that. And that's cool.


----------



## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

RainmakerV2 said:


> The reason that bringing up boxing or MMA when it comes to this argument is always fucking stupid is because boxing and MMA have WEIGHT CLASSES. They're going up against guys the same size. Yeah. Conor McGregor is probably a way more skilled fighter than Brock Lesnar, but put them in a cage together. Who's winning? Its simple physics and anatomy. Sugar Ray Leonard, great fighter, sure, but Tyson Fury could beat him with one arm. Again, just simple physics and anatomy.
> 
> Sure, are there ultra badass small dudes who can beat people way bigger than them? Sure. But the vast majority of the time in any kind of combat, a very skilled 150 pound dude is going to get his ass kicked by a 250 pound dude, skilled or no skill.
> 
> And really what we're talking about isnt SMALL dudes, it's PUNY dudes. HBK is small when it comes to the grand scheme of pro wrestling, but he was thick as shit and ripped to the bone in his prime. Same with Daniel Bryan, small in the grand scheme of things, but he looks like an athlete that goes to the gym, has strength, and takes care of himself. Sell to me a story that has someone like Adam Cole beating Bobby Lashley or Roman Reigns that is in any way believable. It doesn't exist. At some point you insult the audiences intelligence and it looks stupid. And that's fine for the core of AEW smark fans as long as "the match is good, they do a bunch of moves and Meltzer likes it.." but you're never gonna expand your audience that way. And maybe you don't care about that. And that's cool.


you should never watch Mysterio vs Big Show - your head will explode

also, avoid movies and tv shows


----------



## RainmakerV2 (Nov 8, 2017)

LifeInCattleClass said:


> you should never watch Mysterio vs Big Show - your head will explode
> 
> also, avoid movies and tv shows



Rey Mysterio is one of the most popular wrestlers of a generation and works a lucha style where he can fly all over the place and catch the big man off guard. Guys like Garcia and Cole are just straight up wrestlers. It's not even close to the same thing. And Rey routunely got the dog shit kicked out of him by bigger men during his one world title reign. If you remember correctly.


----------



## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

RainmakerV2 said:


> Rey Mysterio is one of the most popular wrestlers of a generation and works a lucha style where he can fly all over the place and catch the big man off guard. Guys like Garcia and Cole are just straight up wrestlers. It's not even close to the same thing. And Rey routunely got the dog shit kicked out of him by bigger men during his one world title reign. If you remember correctly.


man - there'll be a thousand examples and you'll come up with a thousand excuses why that one is different from a Garcia or a Jungle Boy or a whatever

you're biased is the problem - big v small has been a trope in all forms of entertainment for as long as there was entertainment






you know I can google a thousand 'small vs big men MMA' fights too


----------



## RainmakerV2 (Nov 8, 2017)

LifeInCattleClass said:


> man - there'll be a thousand examples and you'll come up with a thousand excuses why that one is different from a Garcia or a Jungle Boy or a whatever
> 
> you're biased is the problem - big v small has been a trope in all forms of entertainment for as long as there was entertainment
> 
> ...


Before there were weight classes and sanctioning bodies for MMA most of the fights you're referring to were 3 t o 4 hundred pound fat dudes with little to no fighting skill at all. Pure circus fights. If I'm watching a pro wrestling show I assume the guy in the ring isn't just some oaf that can't tell his right from his left. 

And again, Bruce Lee, like Rey Mysterio, great example. They have a certain trait that makes them competitive against a bigger man. They aren't out there locking up and trading holds with them like Adam Cole or Daniel Garcia.


----------



## Thomazbr (Apr 26, 2009)

RainmakerV2 said:


> Before there were weight classes and sanctioning bodies for MMA most of the fights you're referring to were 3 t o 4 hundred pound fat dudes with little to no fighting skill at all. Pure circus fights. If I'm watching a pro wrestling show I assume the guy in the ring isn't just some oaf that can't tell his right from his left.
> 
> And again, Bruce Lee, like Rey Mysterio, great example. They have a certain trait that makes them competitive against a bigger man. They aren't out there locking up and trading holds with them like Adam Cole or Daniel Garcia.


I mean Bruce Lee isn't the best example at all.
Rey Mysterio attacked from a unusual side for american wrestler. Bruce Lee did everything people are complaining here. Bruce Lee was a smaller guy who was straight up just better and superior to everyone in the movie sphere. It's straight up a masturbatory affair. He is stronger, he is faster, he is smarter, he is the better martial artist, he is the wiser one, he is the more angry one. Bruce Lee was just a better fighter. He demolished basically literally everyone in their own specialties. The ONLY guy who gives him a small bit of toruple in his entire cinematography was Kareem Abdul Jabar and Bruce still barely broke a sweat. He is way closer to an Daniel Garcia in presentation than a Rey Mysterio. The real person you should be comparing if you want to give that example is Jackie Chan, who then struggles, has to find other ways, uses the setting to his side. But even then at the end of the day generally, in his most celebrated movies, Jackie still is straight up better than everyone in the movies


----------



## Kopros_The_Great (Jun 26, 2014)

LifeInCattleClass said:


> man - there'll be a thousand examples and you'll come up with a thousand excuses why that one is different from a Garcia or a Jungle Boy or a whatever
> 
> you're biased is the problem - big v small has been a trope in all forms of entertainment for as long as there was entertainment
> 
> ...


That shit is in the fucking bible lol...


----------



## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

Kopros_The_Great said:


> That shit is in the fucking bible lol...


lolllll - yeah, the original ‘David vs Goliath’

hahahaaaa - good one


----------



## RapShepard (Jun 20, 2014)

Firefromthegods said:


> You aren't a smart mark? Since when?
> 
> Expllain why wrestling is looked down on and why it's not talked about regularly everywhere? *Because when I was a kid during Austin times wrestling was not cool. It was niche.*
> 
> ...


This is a false statement as far as the US goes


----------



## El Hammerstone (Jan 11, 2020)

RapShepard said:


> This is a false statement as far as the US goes


I can verify this for Canada as well


----------



## RapShepard (Jun 20, 2014)

Wait do people actually believe in Bruce Lee


----------



## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

RapShepard said:


> Wait do people actually believe in Bruce Lee


the same way they do Daniel Garcia


----------



## GothicBohemian (May 26, 2012)

Chip Chipperson said:


> I think many people would be surprised at the shows I put on to be honest. Regardless of that, nobody is really commenting on his in ring work mainly just his look and marketability which he doesn't have.


His look needs a ton of work. He's still generic in every way, including his ring gear, but he's 22 and has the wrestling part down very well. The other stuff is what being on tv and working with guys like Punk will help him develop. I mentioned liking him being paired with 2Point0 for now and this is why - one of them is an exceptional talker who he can learn from. 

AEW has this problem with a few folks, not just Garcia. For example, Jungle Boy and Dante Martin still need to figure out the whole gimmick/character/persona/believability thing. JB has a gimmick because he needs that as otherwise he's just a quiet, smallish guy with long hair. Sammy has just now started to figure out how to present himself. When hiring young talent for the future you get ten JBs and Sammys for every one MJF or OC (I'm talking about character and/or promo skills here, not wrestling ability). 



Firefromthegods said:


> Because when I was a kid during Austin times wrestling was not cool. It was niche.





RapShepard said:


> This is a false statement as far as the US goes





El Hammerstone said:


> I can verify this for Canada as well


I can say with 100% certainty that wrestling was never a mainstream popular "cool" thing in my part of Canada in any era. It had moments when more people were watching but they weren't "cool" people. It's always been one of those things that, er, I don't know a good way to say this, that people who didn't run with a "cool" crowd were into. It's ok to have some low-brow and nerdy interests. Lots of "cool" people do. 

Were it not for my dad, I'd likely never have noticed wrestling at all. It sure wasn't anything my friends were talking about at school. Then and now, when I tell someone about my wrestling interests 90% of the time I get laughter and incredulity. People who know love to introduce me with _She's into wrestling!_ as if that's some crazy, impossible fact. 

What's funny is that I've noticed more people in the hipster demo watching lately, but they pick the indie and overseas stuff. Some of them check out AEW too because of ties to the indie scene (and it just not being the pop culture WWE). My go-to, reliable wrestling chat pals are still my rural, summer beer-drinking buddies and my gamer geek coworker. They're not "cool" or influential or rich but they know their wrestling!


----------



## CM Buck (Sep 2, 2012)

GothicBohemian said:


> His look needs a ton of work. He's still generic in every way, including his ring gear, but he's 22 and has the wrestling part down very well. The other stuff is what being on tv and working with guys like Punk will help him develop. I mentioned liking him being paired with 2Point0 for now and this is why - one of them is an exceptional talker who he can learn from.
> 
> AEW has this problem with a few folks, not just Garcia. For example, Jungle Boy and Dante Martin still need to figure out the whole gimmick/character/persona/believability thing. JB has a gimmick because he needs that as otherwise he's just a quiet, smallish guy with long hair. Sammy has just now started to figure out how to present himself. When hiring young talent for the future you get ten JBs and Sammys for every one MJF or OC (I'm talking about character and/or promo skills here, not wrestling ability).
> 
> ...


100 percent this. Like one Time I mentioned the guy who invented the STO and was met with derision, despite the guy who invented it being a recognised "real" fighter


----------



## AuthorOfPosts (Feb 9, 2020)

The issue isn't his size. The issue is he doesn't have the ability or credibility to cover up for his size. Basically, he just sucks.


----------



## the_flock (Nov 23, 2016)

Firefromthegods said:


> Then why did lex luger fail as the next Hogan? Why did mason Ryan? Why did Roman struggle as the face of wwe.
> 
> @the_flock you and Chip may have got into wrestling for the looks but I've always priotised character and story above all else.


Luger failed because they couldn't decide between him and Bret. Luger was supposed to win the title at Summerslam, but Vince wanted to wait until Mania for him to claim the title. That delay caused Luger stock to crash. 

I'm not saying you have to be roided to the max to be a star. To be a star you have to look and carry yourself like a star. 

Just for the record some of my personal favourite wrestlers of all time include Raven and Bam Bam Bigelow, neither of which were roided to the max, but they actually looked like stars.


----------



## the_flock (Nov 23, 2016)

Firefromthegods said:


> You aren't a smart mark? Since when?
> 
> Expllain why wrestling is looked down on and why it's not talked about regularly everywhere? Because when I was a kid during Austin times wrestling was not cool. It was niche.
> 
> ...


Wrestling wasn't niche in the attitude era, it was mainstream. I was at college at this time and the amount of people attempting to do the worm, the peoples eyebrow, calling people jabronis, etc etc. You don't get that nowadays.


----------



## the_flock (Nov 23, 2016)

Chip Chipperson said:


> And that's why in 30-40 years wrestling may very well be dead.


It won't be. It will be a carnival act, touring around the world. That's where its heading.

The UK scene has gone from a massive high 5 years ago to now being at mid 90s level.


----------



## the_flock (Nov 23, 2016)

LifeInCattleClass said:


> man - there'll be a thousand examples and you'll come up with a thousand excuses why that one is different from a Garcia or a Jungle Boy or a whatever
> 
> you're biased is the problem - big v small has been a trope in all forms of entertainment for as long as there was entertainment
> 
> ...


You do realise that Bruce Lee was a big advocate in bodybuilding and had said that fighters spent too much time learning technique, instead of body conditioning.

Bruce Lee was also a Master in about 5 different art forms and was a boxing champion in school and took part in illegal Street fights.

Garcia is a dweeb and can't be comparable to one of the greatest fighters of all time.

What's your next comparison going to be Jackie Chan vs Orange Cassidy.


----------



## CM Buck (Sep 2, 2012)

the_flock said:


> Wrestling wasn't niche in the attitude era, it was mainstream. I was at college at this time and the amount of people attempting to do the worm, the peoples eyebrow, calling people jabronis, etc etc. You don't get that nowadays.


Check out GothicBohemians post. Basically covers what I'm trying to say better.


----------



## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

the_flock said:


> You do realise that Bruce Lee was a big advocate in bodybuilding and had said that fighters spent too much time learning technique, instead of body conditioning.
> 
> Bruce Lee was also a Master in about 5 different art forms and was a boxing champion in school and took part in illegal Street fights.
> 
> ...


the comparison was about size differences in action movies 🤦‍♂️

if you can’t follow the conversation, best stick to the sidelines


----------



## the_flock (Nov 23, 2016)

LifeInCattleClass said:


> the comparison was about size differences in action movies 🤦‍♂️
> 
> if you can’t follow the conversation, best stick to the sidelines


I can follow conversations. The fact of the matter is the "small" guy you chose just so happens to be the most well known martial artist of all time and the Goat. 

You cant compare them. 

Even someone like Sean Waltman as the 123 Kid was more legit than Garcia. Spike Dudley was too, but they weren't presented as badasses. 

It's all in the presentation. AEW are trying to make Garcia look like a bad ass but he looks like a dweeb.


----------



## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

the_flock said:


> I can follow conversations. The fact of the matter is the "small" guy you chose just so happens to be the most well known martial artist of all time and the Goat.
> 
> You cant compare them.
> 
> ...


Go google more examples then - there’s thousands


----------



## Thomazbr (Apr 26, 2009)

the_flock said:


> It won't be. It will be a carnival act, touring around the world. That's where its heading.
> 
> The UK scene has gone from a massive high 5 years ago to now being at mid 90s level.


Blame WWE for that
NXT UK killed the UK indie scene


----------



## Thomazbr (Apr 26, 2009)

RapShepard said:


> Wait do people actually believe in Bruce Lee


I'm talking merely about the presentation of combat.
Bruce Lee presented himself as the god who was better than literally everyone no matter size or weight or race or whatever. In the Bruce Lee cinematic universe there's only one rule and that is "Bruce Lee is the best". Bruce Lee is closer to Daniel Garcia in a pro wrestling presentation than a Rey Mysterio.
It's all I'm saying

That being said I think Bruce Lee movies are dull as fuck.
Jackie is the best.


----------



## Thomazbr (Apr 26, 2009)

Someone mentioned here in derision but unironically in the presentation of fictional combat Jackie and Orange Cassidy are a fair comparison tbh when you look at it.
Jackie usually wins the big climactic fights by loosening up and embracing his goofy side ("Wheels on Meals" final fight or "Gorgeous" final fight") or by tapping into a hidden power source that its also just goofy (finally embracing the femininity of the last form of Drunken Boxing in Drunken Master 1 or just Drunken Boxing in general. The dude drinks industrial alcohol to power up.). Jackie is also just generally a mischievous guy who takes quite a beating and has to actually outsmart and out trick the people around him.

Comedy and Pain are a big part of Jackie's cinematic appeal. He wasn't necessarily the strongest or the fastest or the most athletic even in Hong Kong (his pals Sammo Hung or Yuen Biao for example all beat Jackie in those aspects). Jackie was just a goofy dude who really went through a LOT of punishment and never really gave up.

People here would be frothing at the mouth calling Jackie a comedy geek.


----------



## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

Thomazbr said:


> Someone mentioned here in derision but unironically in the presentation of fictional combat Jackie and Orange Cassidy are a fair comparison tbh when you look at it.
> Jackie usually wins the big climactic fights by loosening up and embracing his goofy side ("Wheels on Meals" final fight or "Gorgeous" final fight") or by tapping into a hidden power source that its also just goofy (finally embracing the femininity of the last form of Drunken Boxing in Drunken Master 1 or just Drunken Boxing in general. The dude drinks industrial alcohol to power up.). Jackie is also just generally a mischievous guy who takes quite a beating and has to actually outsmart and out trick the people around him.
> 
> Comedy and Pain are a big part of Jackie's cinematic appeal. He wasn't necessarily the strongest or the fastest or the most athletic even in Hong Kong (his pals Sammo Hung or Yuen Biao for example all beat Jackie in those aspects). Jackie was just a goofy dude who really went through a LOT of punishment and never really gave up.
> ...


In Hong Kong wasn't Jackie ultra serious? Only have seen maybe 2 of those films but I don't recall him doing too much comedy shit until he went to America.


----------



## Thomazbr (Apr 26, 2009)

Chip Chipperson said:


> In Hong Kong wasn't Jackie ultra serious? Only have seen maybe 2 of those films but I don't recall him doing too much comedy shit until he went to America.


Jackie started, like many others before him, as a Brucexploitation star but he was only successfully launched as a big star in hong kong with the movies Snake in the Eagle's Shadow and the first Drunken Master which were notoriously more comedic affairs.
For example, the final fight of Drunken Master is all about Jackie finally learning the last of the 8 Drunken Gods: Miss Ho. Which is a Kung Fu style that is all about pretending to be a woman much to his own chagrin (he didn't want to do a sissy martial art you see.) it's only when he is nearly losing that he finally accepts and learns on the spot how to use the Flirtatious Drunk Miss Ho to finally complete the Drunken Fist. His first big modern-period classic Police Story that continue his stardom is also filled with many comedy scenes in between action beats. Project A, the first classic movie of his own directorial efforts, is just a big tribute to the Golden Age Hollywood Movies made by Chaplin, Harold Lloyd, and Buster Keaton. and like I told before, the climactic beats that completely change the tone of the fight scenes in his favors in Hong Kong movies like Wheels on Meals and Gorgeous are specifically about not taking the fight seriously and having fun. Gorgeous even has Jackie forcing the late Brad Allen (RIP) into choreographed dance mid-fight.
The very final shot of Drunken Master II, for many his ultimate masterpiece, which was cut from the American version has Jackie reveal that after the main character had to drink Industrial Alcohol to power up to defeat the final guy he had become mentally disabled in the sort of completely insensitive way only a 90's foreign comedy could.






That is not to say Jackie was a pure comedy guy and in those same movies Jackie portrayed scenes of righteous anger, a straight coolness to him and, notably, a real ladykiller attitude. Jackie was a real sex symbol in asia in his peak and he always made sure that he would get the pretty girl. But make no mistake, comedy is a fundamental aspect of his career. US Jackie is just Jackie without the time and means to do the Hong Kong craft and with a little less edge to him (he couldn't be the playboy that he was in his asian movies), but its not like getting into the US scene was also the moment where Jackie was also introduced to comedy. One of Jackie's big inspirations WERE the comedy legends of old already mentioned here (Chaplin, Lloyd and Keaton). Jackie's characters were overwhelmingly always cool, charming, sympathetic, and definitively funny. A stark contrast to Bruce Lee's school of filmmaking which was entirely about magnifying how much of a fucking GOD Bruce is. Bruce's movies were more or less entirely about Bruce delivering without impunity and without breaking as much of a sweat-sweet karmic vengeance in the form of fast kicks and punches and just utterly dominating everyone around him and he would never in a million years do comedy. Bruce took himself and his movies entirely too seriously. His closest equal is probably Chuck Norris and even then Bruce just pretty much wipes the floor with him. It's even kinda tragic because the structure of the fight is that they are more or less equals and Chuck might be better but then Bruce adapts to him not too long and then Chuck does the same kind of adaptation and you would think that would bring them close to the same level but no, Bruce just destroys him in like two moves after it. A big part of the appeal of Jackie is just how NOT like Bruce he is.


----------



## Thomazbr (Apr 26, 2009)

And of course
Who could I forget "City Hunter"


----------



## Sbatenney (Jul 3, 2018)

Thomazbr said:


> Blame WWE for that
> NXT UK killed the UK indie scene


Covid killed the UK indie scene, not the WWE, ICW and Progress both were still hot until the start of Covid lockdowns happened.


----------



## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

Thomazbr said:


> Jackie started, like many others before him, as a Brucexploitation star but he was only successfully launched as a big star in hong kong with the movies Snake in the Eagle's Shadow and the first Drunken Master which were notoriously more comedic affairs.
> For example, the final fight of Drunken Master is all about Jackie finally learning the last of the 8 Drunken Gods: Miss Ho. Which is a Kung Fu style that is all about pretending to be a woman much to his own chagrin (he didn't want to do a sissy martial art you see.) it's only when he is nearly losing that he finally accepts and learns on the spot how to use the Flirtatious Drunk Miss Ho to finally complete the Drunken Fist. His first big modern-period classic Police Story that continue his stardom is also filled with many comedy scenes in between action beats. Project A, the first classic movie of his own directorial efforts, is just a big tribute to the Golden Age Hollywood Movies made by Chaplin, Harold Lloyd, and Buster Keaton. and like I told before, the climactic beats that completely change the tone of the fight scenes in his favors in Hong Kong movies like Wheels on Meals and Gorgeous are specifically about not taking the fight seriously and having fun. Gorgeous even has Jackie forcing the late Brad Allen (RIP) into choreographed dance mid-fight.
> The very final shot of Drunken Master II, for many his ultimate masterpiece, which was cut from the American version has Jackie reveal that after the main character had to drink Industrial Alcohol to power up to defeat the final guy he had become mentally disabled in the sort of completely insensitive way only a 90's foreign comedy could.
> 
> ...


you’ve convinced me

OC is Jackie Chan


----------



## cai1981 (Oct 2, 2016)

elo said:


> Finn Balor (5 ft 9) defeated Mace (6 ft 6) in ~3 mins on this past RAW.
> 
> If you wanna watch beefcakes win everything then bodybuilding contests are right up your alley.


WWE is guilty of this every now and again...ESPECIALLY with Rey Mysterio. However, not to the extent of AEW.


----------



## Krin (Apr 8, 2018)

cai1981 said:


> WWE is guilty of this every now and again...ESPECIALLY with Rey Mysterio. However, not to the extent of AEW.


no, they're not really. because Balor never dominated Mace in that match, it was he who was dominated and he fights and struggles a bit for the win. Same with Mysterio. You never see them outright dominate and beat down big men like they're some unstoppable warrior. With Balor, maybe when he's the demon that happens, and I don't particularly care for it, but at least there is a clear distinction between demon Balor and regular Balor. 

there is no sort of depth or reasoning behind why Garcia is the way he is. You're just meant to accept it as is. I asked in this thread if anyone can direct me to a storyline or angle that explains why his character is that way and there isn't one.


----------



## Nacho Esqueleto (Aug 5, 2021)

This bullshit again!!!!!
Wah, wah, wah a wrestler isn't 10 ft tall and 700 lbs so he can't fight/wrestle.
So glad this issue doesn't poison boxing or MMA.
Daniel Garcia is a great talent and will only get better in a company that appreciates and nurtures young talent regardless of size/weight/race or gender.


----------



## cai1981 (Oct 2, 2016)

Nacho Esqueleto said:


> This bullshit again!!!!!
> Wah, wah, wah a wrestler isn't 10 ft tall and 700 lbs so he can't fight/wrestle.
> *So glad this issue doesn't poison boxing or MMA.*


LOL...boxing and MMM have WEIGHT CLASSES!!!! Fighters and Boxers face ONLY people that are close in size to them so OF COURSE THEY DIN'T HAVE THAT ISSUE!!!

Take your pick of the best middleweight, lightweight or smaller boxers or fighters and put them against a heavyweight and they get KILLED!!!!

AEW promised a "realistic" product....it doesn't get any more realistic than on Rampage where that little Orange clown beat a Hulk in Will Hobbs or on Dynamite where Jungle Boy...140lbs soaking wet was able to BULLY and tie up a guy twice his size in Cutler!


----------



## MrMeeseeks (Aug 6, 2020)

cai1981 said:


> LOL...boxing and MMM have WEIGHT CLASSES!!!! Fighters and Boxers face ONLY people that are close in size to them so OF COURSE THEY DIN'T HAVE THAT ISSUE!!!
> 
> Take your pick of the best middleweight, lightweight or smaller boxers or fighters and put them against a heavyweight and they get KILLED!!!!
> 
> AEW promised a "realistic" product....it doesn't get any more realistic than on Rampage where that little Orange clown beat a Hulk in Will Hobbs or *on Dynamite where Jungle Boy...140lbs soaking wet was able to BULLY and tie up a guy twice his size in Cutler!*


yeah cause its not like Cutler hasnt been portrayed as a dorky no talent stooge for the past year right?


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## cai1981 (Oct 2, 2016)

MrMeeseeks said:


> yeah cause its not like Cutler hasnt been portrayed as a dorky no talent stooge for the past year right?


A guy like JB being clever enough to beat a guy like Cutler in a match is one thing...DOMINATING a guy taller and much heavier than him (and yes I know Cutler is not a super heavyweight which says a lot about JB's size) and tying him up like a pretzel is something totally different!


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## SuperstarSlyme (Oct 25, 2021)

If that is a reason for u to not give AEW a chance you clearly never wanted to give it a fair shake in the first place lol.


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## TuNePeuxPas OK (Jan 7, 2017)

BrrrGoesWooo! said:


> A simple story of skill vs size. That's all it is. The kid is young, technically skilled, not bad on the mic for his time in, and most importantly has plenty of time and room to grow.
> 
> It's called putting over an up and comer.
> 
> Just because you don't see it doesn't mean guys like Bryan or Punk don't.


This.


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## Nickademus_Eternal (Feb 24, 2014)

Krin said:


> People clearly aren't reading the thread, they're just clinging onto tired arguments. I said in the first sentence of my post I don't watch the product. This was one of the rare times I happened to catch it and gave it a chance. so GTFO with the "why do you keep watching it then?" nonsense.
> 
> The "wrestlers dont need to look like bodybuilders. Not all fighters look like bodybuilders!!" stuff, gee ya don't say? already mentioned Samoa Joe and Taz as 2 guys who aren't bodybuilders but still look convincing for their gimmicks.
> 
> And no, a wrestler's look isn't 5% of what goes into being a wrestler, it's more like 50%.


Then stop saying stupid shit for attention.


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## Nickademus_Eternal (Feb 24, 2014)

the_flock said:


> Is Tyson Fury a 5 foot 7 inch dweeb pretending to be a bad ass. Fury might not be jacked, but he still has an insane amount of muscle and strength.


I guarantee that dweeb will knock your ass out.


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## Nickademus_Eternal (Feb 24, 2014)

Firefromthegods said:


> I don't see professional wrestling becoming universally praised ever. I've accepted that wrestling is niche. But hey I can't fault you for wanting wrestling to be as loved as reality shows


Well, when we have shitty ass fans that never stfu about shit, why should we go back to watching wrestling?


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## Nickademus_Eternal (Feb 24, 2014)

RainmakerV2 said:


> The reason that bringing up boxing or MMA when it comes to this argument is always fucking stupid is because boxing and MMA have WEIGHT CLASSES. They're going up against guys the same size. Yeah. Conor McGregor is probably a way more skilled fighter than Brock Lesnar, but put them in a cage together. Who's winning? Its simple physics and anatomy. Sugar Ray Leonard, great fighter, sure, but Tyson Fury could beat him with one arm. Again, just simple physics and anatomy.
> 
> Sure, are there ultra badass small dudes who can beat people way bigger than them? Sure. But the vast majority of the time in any kind of combat, a very skilled 150 pound dude is going to get his ass kicked by a 250 pound dude, skilled or no skill.
> 
> And really what we're talking about isnt SMALL dudes, it's PUNY dudes. HBK is small when it comes to the grand scheme of pro wrestling, but he was thick as shit and ripped to the bone in his prime. Same with Daniel Bryan, small in the grand scheme of things, but he looks like an athlete that goes to the gym, has strength, and takes care of himself. Sell to me a story that has someone like Adam Cole beating Bobby Lashley or Roman Reigns that is in any way believable. It doesn't exist. At some point you insult the audiences intelligence and it looks stupid. And that's fine for the core of AEW smark fans as long as "the match is good, they do a bunch of moves and Meltzer likes it.." but you're never gonna expand your audience that way. And maybe you don't care about that. And that's cool.


That's all you losers have? "Weight divisions work!!"? I mean if this was a street fight, not many of those muscled up dudes you and your bf stroke to will actually win. You want realism but ignore the fact that wrestling at firemen,wizards and zombies? You're special huh?


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## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

Why da bump tho bro?


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## RainmakerV2 (Nov 8, 2017)

Nickademus_Eternal said:


> That's all you losers have? "Weight divisions work!!"? I mean if this was a street fight, not many of those muscled up dudes you and your bf stroke to will actually win. You want realism but ignore the fact that wrestling at firemen,wizards and zombies? You're special huh?


This post is like months old so I dont even know what we're talking about. Uh. I think someone said Darby Allin is Conor McGregor size or something? Or fights in the same weight class? Which is just utterly ridiculous lol.


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## Dickhead1990 (Aug 31, 2016)

You must've lost your shit when Hogan beat Andre then! 

I don't really see the problem here as size doesn't dictate who would win in a real fight. I'm just happy to see young stars getting a push.


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## RainmakerV2 (Nov 8, 2017)

Dickhead1990 said:


> You must've lost your shit when Hogan beat Andre then!
> 
> I don't really see the problem here as size doesn't dictate who would win in a real fight. I'm just happy to see young stars getting a push.



It all depends on style of work. For example, a lucha like Rey is one thing, he can fly all over the place and outquick the bigger man. You can tell a story there. Plus when he joined WWE he was built like a little brick shithouse. With someone like Darby you can tell the story of him never dying and being willing to jump off anything in the building to win. Again, there's a story.

Now when it comes to someone like Adam Cole, you run into an issue. He's a very straight up wrestler, uses a lot of holds, slams, he's not flying all over the place and putting his body at risk. So what story can you tell? Put him up against a Bobby Lashley or Damian Priest or fuck, even Baron Corbin and tell me what the story is that leads him to a win? There is no believable one. Now you can say, well hes in AEW he doesnt have to worry so much about giants..and okay. But even guys like Moxley and Omega make him look tiny.


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