# Plans for Islamic Mosque at Ground Zero



## Cerbs (Feb 11, 2008)

Newsweek.com



> Mosque at Ground Zero is a "Slap in the Face"
> Eve Conant
> 
> This Week in Conservative Media
> ...


This is just a retarded idea all around and I honestly can't believe the City of New York might let this happen.

It's just in poor taste and completely inconsiderate towards all the families that lost loved ones on that site on 9/11. 

It's even worse considering they are open about the fact the location of this mosque _does_ have something to do with the terrorist attacks. This just makes me sick.


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## .BD (Oct 2, 2007)

I disagree with this strongly. Just bad taste and in all honesty does nothing to "bridge the gap" or "move towards a better appreciation of the Islamic faith" or any other propaganda the proponents will probably spit out at you. Also, this line really pissed me off.


> We need to take the 9/11 tragedy and turn it into something very positive.


Uh no, how is this positive in the slightest? It would doubtlessly become the American Mecca for all the wrong reasons.


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## MVP444 (Jan 26, 2009)

They are no ally to America, I strongly disagree with it.


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## Jon Staley (Aug 8, 2007)

I hope the mosque and all of the Islamics get blown up personally.


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## seancarleton77 (Jul 4, 2006)

I'm sure there were Muslims in the Trade Center too, not surprised this was printed by conservative media.


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## Cerbs (Feb 11, 2008)

Jon Power said:


> I hope the mosque and all of the Islamics get blown up personally.


It seriously wouldn't surprise me if it did tbh. 

And it would be very hard for a lot of Americans to feel bad about it if that did happen. 

Just a stupid, stupid idea.


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## MVP444 (Jan 26, 2009)

seancarleton77 said:


> I'm sure there were Muslims in the Trade Center too, not surprised this was printed by conservative media.


What does it matter if it was "conservative media", all media is equally biased and flawed.


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## afkatk (May 4, 2007)

that's just asking to be vandalised.


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## seancarleton77 (Jul 4, 2006)

I'm no fan of religion, but what's the big deal?


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## Do Your Fcking Job (Feb 9, 2009)

Stupid, stupid idea.

God damm Muslims and thier evil religion. The whole world is fed up of Islam, why cant they just bugger off?


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## .BD (Oct 2, 2007)

You don't think it is at all in bad taste? You don't think that this "Mosque" will become a place where certain Muslims will go to celebrate the catastrophe of 9/11? You really think this mosque will help foster a better relationship between religions? I am no conservative, but this is the kind of thing that I agree with them on.


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## Cerbs (Feb 11, 2008)

seancarleton77 said:


> I'm no fan of religion, but what's the big deal?


Considering Islamic supremecists were responsible for the events of 9/11 and killed over 3,000 innocent people in the name of Allah on that very site, how the fuck is that hard to comprehend? The 13-story building they plan on having this mosque was even damaged by debris from the World Trade Center. That is not a coincidence. 

We might as well write a "thank you" letter to Osama Bin Laden for opening our eyes to Islamic culture by killing thousands of innocent people. 


.BD said:


> You don't think it is at all in bad taste? You don't think that this "Mosque" will become a place where certain Muslims will go to celebrate the catastrophe of 9/11? You really think this mosque will help foster a better relationship between religions? I am no conservative, but this is the kind of thing that I agree with them on.


Exactly, I can't imagine what kind of chaos it would create if Islamics were practically _encouraged_ by this mosque to tour southern Manhattan to _celebrate_ what happened that day. I can't believe it's even being considered.


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## Myers (Jan 19, 2004)

I'm sure they won't go through with it, to many people would be upset, especially those who lost somebody on 9/11. It is just a story written to stir shit up.


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## TheLoneShark (Apr 2, 2009)

Cerbs said:


> Considering Islamic supremecists were responsible for the events of 9/11 and killed over 3,000 innocent people in the name of Allah on that very site, how the fuck is that hard to comprehend?


Islamic Extremists, not supremacists, were _directly_ responsible for 9/11, but it was White Supremacy that was responsible if you go right back to the start. If you guys had stayed the fuck outta their business in the first place, they wouldn't have felt the need to retaliate. 

Not saying it's right, just saying that everything has a reason. The Islamic extremists attacked the US because American have been raping their country of natural resources and trying to force your own bullshit religion on them.

Yet another failure of Team America in its mission to westernise the world.

Also, the fact that you all think Islam is an 'evil' religion just goes to show how overall retarded the people of WF and the US can be. You should know, for example, that the Muslim people are among the charitable in the world in terms of a religion-to-religion comparison. You should also know that the faith, when followed correctly, is only very slightly different in ethos to Christianity in so far as they just happen to have a different name for the guy above Jesus' head. That's pretty much it.

No evil there, just American idiots being afraid of what they're too stupid to understand. As always.


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## MVP444 (Jan 26, 2009)

TheLoneShark said:


> Islamic Extremists, not supremacists, were _directly_ responsible for 9/11, but it was White Supremacy that was responsible if you go right back to the start. If you guys had stayed the fuck outta their business in the first place, they wouldn't have felt the need to retaliate.
> 
> Not saying it's right, just saying that everything has a reason. The Islamic extremists attacked the US because American have been raping their country of natural resources and trying to force your own bullshit religion on them.
> 
> ...


Wow. You're a moron.


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## TheLoneShark (Apr 2, 2009)

MVP444 said:


> Wow. You're a moron.


No. I'm able to read. Funny how your perspective on the world changes with an education. Maybe you should try getting one.


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## Emperor DC (Apr 3, 2006)

Not the wisest choice.


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## MVP444 (Jan 26, 2009)

TheLoneShark said:


> No. I'm able to read. Funny how your perspective on the world changes with an education. Maybe you should try getting one.


You're a smart one.


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## TheLoneShark (Apr 2, 2009)

MVP444 said:


> You're a smart one.


And you're not. Glad we sorted that out.


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## .BD (Oct 2, 2007)

> Islamic Extremists, not supremacists, were directly responsible for 9/11, but it was White Supremacy that was responsible if you go right back to the start. If you guys had stayed the fuck outta their business in the first place, they wouldn't have felt the need to retaliate.
> 
> Not saying it's right, just saying that everything has a reason. The Islamic extremists attacked the US because American have been raping their country of natural resources and trying to force your own bullshit religion on them.
> 
> ...


I agree with some of this, but some is just blatant anti-american hyperbole and ludicrous generalisations. Not all of Islam are evil, bitter terrorists. But lets not kind ourselves. Over 50% of the population supported the 9/11 attacks in certain middle eastern countries. No evil there? Find some figures showing any other major religion having these levels of support for such unambiguously monstrous acts.


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## Cerbs (Feb 11, 2008)

TheLoneShark said:


> Islamic Extremists, not supremacists, were _directly_ responsible for 9/11, but it was White Supremacy that was responsible if you go right back to the start. If you guys had stayed the fuck outta their business in the first place, they wouldn't have felt the need to retaliate.
> 
> Not saying it's right, just saying that everything has a reason. The Islamic extremists attacked the US because American have been raping their country of natural resources and trying to force your own bullshit religion on them.
> 
> ...


This is all pretty ridiculous tbh. I've never heard anyone claim the white supremacy was responsible for 9/11. As if only white people are Christian. Sounds like something you would hear from the Westboro Baptist Church tbh. 

It also sounds like you're seriously trying to justify what happened on 9/11... which is pretty shocking and disgusting at the same time. 

Even the most liberal people in the world who objected to everything George W. Bush did to handle that situation afterwards would agree it wouldn't have happened in the first place if we had not _helped_ them. That's what we did. We _helped_ them with expert CIA training and gave them several million dollars in government funding, along with weapons to over-throw their governments. We did nothing to provoke their attacks. That is complete and utter bullshit right there. 

It also has nothing to do with this story at all. Pretty sure if Jewish EXTREMISTS purposely crashed a fucking plane into the middle of London killing thousand of innocent people, the last thing in the world anyone would want to have is a newly-erected synagogue next to Big Ben to commemorate it. Get the fuck over yourself.

Not nearly all Islamics even agree with what happened on 9/11. Not even close. Most see it as an embarrassment actually.


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## Kiz (Dec 2, 2006)

The sad thing is, there are people that come up with ideas like this.


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## seancarleton77 (Jul 4, 2006)

Okay it's not a good idea because it will cause a stir, that is the reason.


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## DR JUPES (May 21, 2009)

I'm still not 100% sure that 9/11 wasn't a conspiracy. The evidence suggesting it may have been is pretty staggering tbh.


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## dan the marino (Oct 22, 2006)

I don't see a problem a huge with it other than it will most likely be vandalized, however I think it would be nice to put a Christian Church or something in the same building.

If they were building a mosque by itself at Ground Zero, then yes, I could see the problem there. But it sounds like this is a 15-story high building with a bunch of random businesses and things going in it.

Personally, I think it would have been nice to build just a memorial or something on it and no other building, but I guess not.


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## Postage (Jun 20, 2007)

Didn't read anything except the OP but although it isn't really the best idea just because of the controversy it will attract but really who's to say they can't? 

I'm no fan of a lot of what the koran has to say and how a good few extremists behave but really the ignorance of assuming that an entire religion and everyone who follows it was linked to 9/11 is retarded. Some guy said he hopes all mosques get blown up as I was scrolling. I mean, really?

At the end of the day, it really is a BAD idea. So is the reasoning for why there should be a mosque built there in the first place.


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## Cerbs (Feb 11, 2008)

joey.jupiter said:


> I'm still not 100% sure that 9/11 wasn't a conspiracy. The evidence suggesting it may have been is pretty staggering tbh.


No it's not. The only people who believe that shit are people who would rather believe YouTube propaganda created by college drop-outs rather than the US government. Calling the twin towers "controlled demolition" is one of the most ignorant, yet HILARIOUS things I've ever heard. Especially when they show examples of _real_ controlled demolition in split screen with the twin towers' collapse and suggest they look the same... when yet they look absolutely nothing alike. I can't believe anyone fell for that "Loose Change" bs. 

Their "theories" have been refuted and denounced so ridiculously that even the authors of that documentary don't even argue about the twin towers anymore and focus soley on Building 7. They've had to re-edit that fucking video like 10 times just to keep up with their own shifting version of the events. I still watch it from time to time just to see how much they switch their stance on it. The authors even deleted my comments off their youtube page after I was having a serious discussion about the video with one of them. Not even kidding. 


Postage said:


> Didn't read anything except the OP but although it isn't really the best idea just because of the controversy it will attract but really who's to say they can't?
> 
> I'm no fan of a lot of what the koran has to say and how a good few extremists behave but really the ignorance of assuming that an entire religion and everyone who follows it was linked to 9/11 is retarded. Some guy said he hopes all mosques get blown up as I was scrolling. I mean, really?
> 
> At the end of the day, it really is a BAD idea. So is the reasoning for why there should be a mosque built there in the first place.


You would actually think Islamics would want their mosques built as far away from the site of Ground Zero as humanly possible.


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## TheLoneShark (Apr 2, 2009)

.BD said:


> I agree with some of this, but some is just blatant anti-american hyperbole and ludicrous generalisations. Not all of Islam are evil, bitter terrorists. But lets not kind ourselves. Over 50% of the population supported the 9/11 attacks in certain middle eastern countries. No evil there? Find some figures showing any other major religion having these levels of support for such unambiguously monstrous acts.


Didn't THE POPE come out directly in support of the illegal invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq? There's far more evil in the Catholic church than all of Islam. And that's coming from a Catholic.

But no, there was no hyperbole or generalisations there. People just don't like the truth.



Cerbs said:


> This is all pretty ridiculous tbh. I've never heard anyone claim the white supremacy was responsible for 9/11. As if only white people are Christian. Sounds like something you would hear from the Westboro Baptist Church tbh.


You don't think two generations of Bush going on a mission to wipe out 'all the little brown people' counts as white supremacy?



> It also sounds like you're seriously trying to justify what happened on 9/11... which is pretty shocking and disgusting at the same time.


I don't need to justify it. They had reasons that, from their point of view, were justified. Just as you guys had your reasons for invading the middle east in the first place that you felt were justified. Neither of you were right, but you had your reasons. Just cos theirs don't agree with yours, doesn't make you right and them wrong.



> Even the most liberal people in the world who objected to everything George W. Bush did to handle that situation afterwards would agree it wouldn't have happened in the first place if we had not _helped_ them. That's what we did. We _helped_ them with expert CIA training and gave them several million dollars in government funding, along with weapons to over-throw their governments. We did nothing to provoke their attacks. That is complete and utter bullshit right there.


They didn't WANT your help. You FORCED it on them. If you woke up tomorrow morning and someone had remodelled your house without your permission, you'd be pretty fucking pissed off, too. 

Just because you found one crazed despot in a country who agreed with you and funded his building of an army to help him Americanise his country, doesn't mean that everyone there wanted it. If they did, there'd be fucking statues of Lincoln and Washington all over those countries.



> It also has nothing to do with this story at all. Pretty sure if Jewish EXTREMISTS purposely crashed a fucking plane into the middle of London killing thousand of innocent people, the last thing in the world anyone would want to have is a newly-erected synagogue next to Big Ben to commemorate it. Get the fuck over yourself.


It has everything to do with this story. If America understood Islam, they wouldn't object to a Mosque being built. Instead, because you think Muslim is somehow Arabic for 'terrorist' you go on the rampage. Hasn't stopped you fuckers building churches all over Afghanistan and Iraq though, has it?



> Not nearly all Islamics even agree with what happened on 9/11. Not even close. Most see it as an embarrassment actually.


So why not support them in their efforts to help rebuild their place in the community?


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## .BD (Oct 2, 2007)

> Didn't THE POPE come out directly in support of the illegal invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq? There's far more evil in the Catholic church than all of Islam. And that's coming from a Catholic.


Don't care what the Pope said, I am not religious. Also, back that up in some regard please. ANY at all. I don't see Christian rallies screaming "Kill all americans" and large scale support for murder of innocent civilians (don't bring up archaic events). 




> But no, there was no hyperbole or generalisations there.


Lol



> I don't need to justify it. They had reasons that, from their point of view, were justified. Just as you guys had your reasons for invading the middle east in the first place that you felt were justified. Neither of you were right, but you had your reasons. Just cos theirs don't agree with yours, doesn't make you right and them wrong.


Wow.



> It has everything to do with this story. If America understood Islam, they wouldn't object to a Mosque being built. Instead, because you think Muslim is somehow Arabic for 'terrorist' you go on the rampage. Hasn't stopped you fuckers building churches all over Afghanistan and Iraq though, has it?


Wow again. Outside the trolls I don't think anyone has a problem with mosques. This particular mosque has obvious problems that I have already outlined but should be self-evident regardless. This is like building a Christian church in the centre of Mecca.


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## MrMister (Mar 11, 2005)

Did a mosque commit the acts of 9/11?

No? Did a religion commit those acts? No? People did? Ok. And we're not erecting statues of them right? Cool.

Then this isn't a big deal at all. Plus it's in New York, one of the most liberal cities in the United States and the world. You guys are getting worked up over nothing.

What about the 1000 point drop of the DOW last week? Yeah, that kinda shit pisses me off way more than building some building with religious significance at ground zero.


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## Panzer (May 31, 2007)

If those normal followers of Islam didn't believe in a god, then they wouldn't have done this. Remember that religion motivates everything that they do.

Anyway, I really don't care if they build a mosque. They have freedom of religion. But fuck them if they think they can build one near the site their religion help tear down. I'm against Republicanism and Capitalism as much as the next freedom fighter but I'll be damned if they use their anger for America to hurt it. I'm against the illegal wars in Iraq and Afghanistan but remember that this happened before we even thought about invading. So, if you think about it, the wars were retaliation for them attacking us, not the other way around. Two wrong don't make a right though. 

I'm pro Arab, anti Islam. The Middle East would be better off without Islam. Maybe then, would they begin to modernize and actually have some basic human rights.


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## reDREDD (Oct 12, 2008)

If those people didnt do it for religion, they would have found another excuse. Stupidity is stupidity.


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## dan the marino (Oct 22, 2006)

They did it because they were pissed off at us and hated us, their religion, in a way, was just a tool used to control them.


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## DR JUPES (May 21, 2009)

I won't bother giving you my answer seeming as I'm in no way involved with the conspiracy theories. I will post this video instead. The facts are staggering. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7cvjBViV7g


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## reDREDD (Oct 12, 2008)

dan_marino said:


> They did it because they were pissed off at us and hated us, their religion, in a way, was just a tool used to control them.


Exactly, crimes and wars have happened over far more excuses than simply religion. Science, race and even materialistic needs have resulted in wars and hatred as well.

It just so happened those people were manipulated by religion.


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## GunnerMuse (Jul 24, 2009)

Seems fine to me. 19 people were responsible for 9/11. That doesn't mean all Muslims should be ostracized. *Muslims died* in the WTC too.


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## TheLoneShark (Apr 2, 2009)

Panther said:


> I'm against the illegal wars in Iraq and Afghanistan but remember that this happened before we even thought about invading. So, if you think about it, the wars were retaliation for them attacking us, not the other way around. Two wrong don't make a right though.


You'll be wrong there:

1948: The creation of Israel, endorsed by the US, leads to Judeo-Islamic segregation and six decades of war between the Israelis and Palestinians over the ownership of Jerusalem.

1990: The United States invades Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and Iraq ostensibly to police a war that didn't involve them. The majority of the Muslim world takes offence to the Western interjection in their business, as well as the sight of American military forces at Mecca.

And that's just two of the pre-9/11 American affronts to the Muslim world. The fact that the American media has been vilifying the Muslim people since the late 80s certainly didn't help, either.


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## Medo (Jun 4, 2006)

Cerbs said:


> Considering Islamic supremecists were responsible for the events of 9/11 and killed over 3,000 innocent people in the name of Allah on that very site, how the fuck is that hard to comprehend? The 13-story building they plan on having this mosque was even damaged by debris from the World Trade Center. That is not a coincidence.
> 
> *We might as well write a "thank you" letter to Osama Bin Laden for opening our eyes to Islamic culture by killing thousands of innocent people.*
> 
> Exactly, I can't imagine what kind of chaos it would create if Islamics were practically _encouraged_ by this mosque to tour southern Manhattan to _celebrate_ what happened that day. I can't believe it's even being considered.


*Hey don't judge the whole Islamic nation of action of one stupid moron who is ready to blow any damn thing since he's rejected by his own country and cover by wrong beliefes insinde his wrong head that it's the god call, so please stop this.

And btw, I am MUSLIM too and my religion doesn't tell me to kill any inocent people but try to find peace with everybody.*




Panther said:


> I'm pro Arab, anti Islam. The Middle East would be better off without Islam. Maybe then, would they begin to modernize and actually have some basic human rights.


*This is realy the stupidest thing i've ever heard in my life, what do you know about Muslims ? what do you know about our cultures ? what's exactly the basic human rights that we don't have ?*


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## Panzer (May 31, 2007)

Medo said:


> *Hey don't judge the whole Islamic nation of action of one stupid moron who is ready to blow any damn thing since he's rejected by his own country and cover by wrong beliefes insinde his wrong head that it's the god call, so please stop this.
> 
> And btw, I am MUSLIM too and my religion doesn't tell me to kill any inocent people but try to find peace with everybody.*
> 
> ...


Just look at Sharia Law then. It will explain everything. 

Religion should be a private matter kept in the churches and the homes of the believer. It has no business in the running's of a country. Countries are to be ruled by humans. Not humans claiming to get their laws from obscure religious books with an invisible deity at the center. And this goes for ALL religions. Not just Islam. If you really care about the Arabs and the Arab Muslims, you will oppose any religiously motivated law that opresses it's own believers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharia_law


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## Cerbs (Feb 11, 2008)

I'm well-aware the entire Islamic nation doesn't condone the acts of Bin Laden, Medo. And I wouldn't talk to you either if I thought you did. No need to defend your religion. 

I do, however, think there are a million more appropriate places in Manhattan to build a mosque besides Ground Zero... the site where some morons attempted to instigate a jihad on behalf of their religion.

It doesn't help either that so many people from their homelands condoned the acts out of hate.


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## Panzer (May 31, 2007)

Cerbs said:


> I'm well-aware the entire Islamic nation doesn't condone the acts of Bin Laden, Medo. And I wouldn't talk to you either if I thought you did. No need to defend your religion.
> 
> I do, however, think there are a million more appropriate places in Manhattan to build a mosque besides Ground Zero... the site where some morons attempted to instigate a jihad on behalf of their religion.
> 
> It doesn't help either that so many people from their homelands condoned the acts out of hate.


I agree. Your religion is yours to keep Medo. I will stop now but just remember that I have a right to criticize your religion and any other that I choose. No one should have to respect any religion by default.


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## reDREDD (Oct 12, 2008)

Panther said:


> I agree. Your religion is yours to keep Medo. I will stop now but just remember that I have a right to criticize your religion and any other that I choose. No one should have to respect any religion by default.


Well ofcourse not, if you believe so strongly you are right, then you should have no problem with criticism.

I really dont see how no Islam can make the world any better or worse. I may have seen horrible acts committed in the name of Islam, but I have also seen some acts of tremendous generosity and love, inspired by Islam.


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## Panzer (May 31, 2007)

redeadening said:


> Well ofcourse not, if you believe so strongly you are right, then you should have no problem with criticism.
> 
> I really dont see how no Islam can make the world any better or worse. I may have seen horrible acts committed in the name of Islam, but I have also seen some acts of tremendous generosity and love, inspired by Islam.


Whatever moral lessons any religion provides, we already have. Religion gets it's morality from authority, not reason.

And I highly doubt those acts of kindness came BECAUSE they followed a religion or believed in a god. I think it came from within. From their own personal beliefs. If it just came because they were religious or believed in a god, then I would hate to see what they would be like if they didn't have a religion telling them what to do. 

Secular principles exist in everyone. That explains how some Christians are for gay rights even though their religion is strongly against homosexuality. You can be good without religion.

But one more thing. Missions. Yes Christian missionaries are doing a good thing by helping people out but why do they have to proselytize the people that they help? Sounds like an ulterior motive to me. Plus, it can also be bad when they start telling the people to stop wearing condoms and other such things. I have no problem if religious people get together to help people that are less fortunate but leave your religion out of it.


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## reDREDD (Oct 12, 2008)

Well then if Religion has no effect on people, either they are naturally good or evil, then why the would the world be better without it?


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## Panzer (May 31, 2007)

redeadening said:


> Well then if Religion has no effect on people, either they are naturally good or evil, then why the would the world be better without it?


Allow me to quote a paragraph out of Dan Barker's book, "Godless". I'm sure he will be able to explain it better than me. Even though this is talking about Christianity, it's message can apply to all religions who think they own a corner on the morality market.



> The word "moral" appears nowhere in the bible. Neither does "morality," "ethics" or "ethical." To inquire if the bible is a good moral guide is to ask a question that originates outside the bible.
> 
> This does not mean that the bible has nothing to say about behavior. The phrase "to do right" appears throughout scripture, but this is usually followed by "in the sight of the Lord." To do right in one's "own eyes" is considered evil. There are a few passages that talk about doing that which is right or good without an explicit connection to a deity, but taken in the general context of biblical theology all behavior that Christians and Jews consider to be good is measured against the "righteousness" of God, not against moral or ethical principles of humanity. Proverbs 16:25 says, "There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death."
> 
> ...


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## reDREDD (Oct 12, 2008)

Morality is given in some form in religion, I was brought up from a young age that I should not commit acts of evil because it is morally wrong, not because God says so. The Prophet himself preached that, as did many of those that followed him.

And I always saw it that way too, anyone who needs a God above to tell them not to do something quite frankly isnt very bright and possibly quite evil to begin with. Religion has enlightened the way me and many other people see the world though. Stories of good and compassion have inspired me to follow suit. As have acts of courage and bravery.

And lets not go into the issue of what 'Morals' are. Its something we alone as species seems to possess. And the way i see it, there is very little to explain why we have these morals. Who gets to choose what is right and wrong? Why does society allow certain things and others not? Who gets to draw the line of morality?

Sometimes faith is helpful in these areas of thinking, putting your faith in a higher power can at times spiritually guide you in your times of need. Perhaps organized religion takes thing too far in terms of customs and rituals, but in the end, we all need some of sort of belief and faith in something. I can honestly say that my religion and faith has enriched my life, and it has really given me guidance at times when it comes to what is 'right'. And if you disgaree, thats your choice. Anyone who forces their belief on someone else is a fool.

Now if excuse me, I just remembered this was a wrestling forum and I havent been to a thread about two men in their underwear bodyslamming each other in a while


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## Panzer (May 31, 2007)

redeadening said:


> Morality is given in some form in religion, I was brought up from a young age that I should not commit acts of evil because it is morally wrong, not because God says so. The Prophet himself preached that, as did many of those that followed him.
> 
> And I always saw it that way too, anyone who needs a God above to tell them not to do something quite frankly isnt very bright and possibly quite evil to begin with. Religion has enlightened the way me and many other people see the world though. Stories of good and compassion have inspired me to follow suit. As have acts of courage and bravery.
> 
> ...


Let's just become Nihilists and forget about this then.

But I will tell you this, when I realized I had lost my faith, it was one of the most happiest days of my life.


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## ~Fallen Angel~ (Oct 24, 2008)

I have to agree with Medo here. There is no need to attack the Islamic nation. There really isn't anything wrong with the Islamic religion nor any religion for that matter. I strongly believe that Iraq's leader brainwashed people into believing that the terrorist attack was what God would have wanted to justify his actions. I am not a religious person by any means but some of the comments you people have made about the Islamic nation have strongly disgusted me. Those who were involved in the terrorist attack on 9/11 did not account for all of the Islamic nation. I'm sure there are Muslim people out there that were upset about the incident. The point is Bin Laden used religion as a justification for his terrible actions but that does not mean the Islamic religion approves of killing innocent people. Any charismatic leader will use a believable excuse to convince others of his evil doings just like Hitler, Stalin, etc. 

I highly doubt they'll built a mosque on Ground Zero but please, do not wish for these mosques to be blown up even if that were to happen. They are innocent people after all and it is very unfortunate that people are so prejudice against them because a bunch of idiots that happened to be from the same country and religion decided to bomb the Twin Towers.

Anyway, as for the idea of building a mosque, I suggest they don't do it to avoid conflicts. That's the last thing we need right now. I'd like to think this world can reach the point where we accept different religions and cultures. Out of respect for those who lost their families and blame "Muslims" for it, they shouldn't do it. They can have mosques built anywhere else in New York but that area probably shouldn't be touched.


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## Rush (May 1, 2007)

Cerbs said:


> I do, however, think there are a million more appropriate places in Manhattan to build a mosque besides Ground Zero... the site where some morons attempted to instigate a jihad on behalf of their religion.


pretty much. nothing against Islam but its asinine to build a place of worship near ground zero and whoever thought of that idea is either blissfully naive or just wants to stir shit.


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## TKOK (Apr 6, 2006)

I agree with the vast majority of the people in this thread. it's a very bad idea to put a mosque at ground zero. it doesn't preach togetherness it just opens old wounds. No doubt there will be at least a few scumbags who will go to it just to celebrate what happened. 

Also, me pointing to 9/11 and saying that's what all Muslims believe would be like someone else pointing to the Westburo Baptist Church and saying that is what all Christians are like. Both are broad generalizations and very untrue.


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## Panzer (May 31, 2007)

~Fallen Angel~ said:


> I have to agree with Medo here. There is no need to attack the Islamic nation. There really isn't anything wrong with the Islamic religion nor any religion for that matter. I strongly believe that Iraq's leader brainwashed people into believing that the terrorist attack was what God would have wanted to justify his actions. I am not a religious person by any means but some of the comments you people have made about the Islamic nation have strongly disgusted me. Those who were involved in the terrorist attack on 9/11 did not account for all of the Islamic nation. I'm sure there are Muslim people out there that were upset about the incident. The point is Bin Laden used religion as a justification for his terrible actions but that does not mean the Islamic religion approves of killing innocent people. Any charismatic leader will use a believable excuse to convince others of his evil doings just like Hitler, Stalin, etc.
> 
> I highly doubt they'll built a mosque on Ground Zero but please, do not wish for these mosques to be blown up even if that were to happen. They are innocent people after all and it is very unfortunate that people are so prejudice against them because a bunch of idiots that happened to be from the same country and religion decided to bomb the Twin Towers.
> 
> Anyway, as for the idea of building a mosque, I suggest they don't do it to avoid conflicts. That's the last thing we need right now. I'd like to think this world can reach the point where we accept different religions and cultures. Out of respect for those who lost their families and blame "Muslims" for it, they shouldn't do it. They can have mosques built anywhere else in New York but that area probably shouldn't be touched.


That's the thing. No one know's what their god would want them to do. And I feel for the Arab people's that must suffer from other people's translations. The blame does not rest with all of the Muslims. Just the one's that did the attacks and were taught to hate from trusted religious leaders. Ever heard the phrase that Christians say? "Love the sinner, not the sin."? Well I have one. "Love the believer, not the religion."

The Arab people, not just the one's that are Muslims, deserve our sympathy. 

Also, the Muslims can build a mosque anywhere where one can be built. But, out of respect, I think it would be wise to build it elsewhere.


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## Zen (Nov 11, 2006)

This is chaos waiting to happen.


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## reDREDD (Oct 12, 2008)

As a muslim myself, even I think its ridiculous that they couldnt find a better location for a mosque other than Ground Zero. Surely there must be hundreds of better locations around NYC.

I mean this, while not directly offensive, would bother many people. It would just feel kinda awkward.


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## Hazzard (Feb 12, 2008)

Disgusting, what is this meant to achieve or prove?


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## Sephiroth (May 27, 2006)

The only problem people should have with a Mosque being built near Ground Zero is the intolerance and hate it will fuel towards it. Its a riot waiting to happen.


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## MrMister (Mar 11, 2005)

You people don't know New Yorkers. They have better things to do than riot a mosque. They all have lives up in Manhattan, and they live them. Also, New Yorkers are some of the most tolerant people on the face of the earth. They being assholes is a total lie.

Putting a mosque at ground zero is a defiant gesture, a sort of metaphorical middle finger to the people who wanted those buildings to come down. If this doesn't make sense, change your perspective for a bit.


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## seancarleton77 (Jul 4, 2006)

MrMister said:


> You people don't know New Yorkers. They have better things to do than riot a mosque. They all have lives up in Manhattan, and they live them. Also, New Yorkers are some of the most tolerant people on the face of the earth. They being assholes is a total lie.


It's Los Angeles where people are assholes, New Yorkers (other than some ROH fans) are great people.


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## Evo (May 12, 2003)

This thread really proves how little Americans know about Islamic culture. It also is a testament to American selfishness.

Your country is trying to recover? Fine. So is their religion. I mean, unless you really want to deny them the basic rights that YOUR forefathers set out in the Constitution.


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## Toots Dalton (Feb 8, 2010)

EvoLution™ said:


> This thread really proves how little Americans know about Islamic culture. It also is a testament to American selfishness.
> 
> Your country is trying to recover? Fine. So is their religion. I mean, unless you really want to deny them the basic rights that YOUR forefathers set out in the Constitution.


This really.

I loved this quote...



> I hope the mosque and all of the Islamics get blown up personally.


So much for the WAR ON TERROR!


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## FITZ (May 8, 2007)

This a tough one for me. It just screams "bad idea" to me but that really shouldn't allow anyone from stopping them. I have nothing against the Islamic Religion but I do feel like this could be looked at the wrong way but a lot of people, including a lot of people here. 

I believe that the intentions of building a mosque there are good but it doesn't mean it will quite work out that way. I hope I'm wrong but I really have a hard time seeing it. If the people that run mosque are very outspoken against everything that the 9/11 attacks stood for than I don't have a problem with it being there at all.

Some of the statements that I read on here are just embarrassing. How the fuck can anyone want the place to get bombed? The outward hate of a religion just because the extremists did something terrible is wrong.


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## Hazzard (Feb 12, 2008)

MrMister said:


> Putting a mosque at ground zero is a defiant gesture, a sort of metaphorical middle finger to the people who wanted those buildings to come down. If this doesn't make sense, change your perspective for a bit.


Huh? explain that one to me.


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## Cage21 (May 18, 2007)

It's a peice of fucking land. If someone buys it, or whoever currently owns it wants to do it, they can put whatever the fuck they want on it. That's capitalism, remember? That thing we're (in)famous for. Or is it only allowed if we like the color of your skin and you follow the proper messiah? And people wonder why the rest of the world wants us eradicated... sometimes I don't blame them.


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## SaveMeCM (Feb 7, 2010)

No mosque. Fuck that.

There is no peaceful Islam. Only peaceful members.


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## Panzer (May 31, 2007)

SaveMeCM said:


> No mosque. Fuck that.
> 
> There is no peaceful Islam. Only peaceful members.


Pretty much. The Arabs would be better off without Islam but that's up to them if they want to retain old world customs or come into the 21st century. Actually, I don't think it's come into the 20th century yet. Sharia Law is testament to that.


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## Panzer (May 31, 2007)

Cage21 said:


> It's a peice of fucking land. If someone buys it, or whoever currently owns it wants to do it, they can put whatever the fuck they want on it.


Not "anything" but I see your point.



> That's capitalism, remember? That thing we're (in)famous for.


It's also what helped almost kill our country in 1929 and what is bankrupting us. But that's an issue for another thread.



> Or is it only allowed if we like the color of your skin and you follow the proper messiah?


Now your just making assumptions by assuming that America is all Christian and that Jesus is the reason for the anger. 



> And people wonder why the rest of the world wants us eradicated... sometimes I don't blame them.


I can understand anger towards my country's leaders and it's military, but wanting to eradicate the people...us?! That I cannot understand nor can I understand the eradication of any people's. If you want to step up to someone who thinks along that line and invite them to kill you, then go ahead. You won't be missed.


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## Mikey Damage (Jul 11, 2004)

That Mosque will be vandalized, probably immediately. 

I'm sure there will be protesters and whatnot, and who knows if they'll get violent or not.


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## TripleG (Dec 8, 2004)

Oooooh. That's kind of touchy. 

Considering what 9/11 was all about (and make no mistake, it was a bunch of pissed off Muslims doing this for religious purposes), and I don't think its a very good idea to be doing this. It might have the good intention of trying to make people realize that not all Muslims are like the 9/11 nutballs, but it comes across very poorly. I mean, a bunch of people crashed two planes into the twin towers for religious reasons, and now the faith they stand for is going to be going to have a building dedicated to it near the crash site. I'm sorry, it might be for good intentions, but it looks bad & is only going to get under people's skins.


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## seancarleton77 (Jul 4, 2006)

Mikey Damage said:


> That Mosque will be vandalized, probably immediately.
> 
> I'm sure there will be protesters and whatnot, and who knows if they'll get violent or not.


That would be a sad day for 'Western civilization' and humanity alike.


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## .BD (Oct 2, 2007)

Not really. I have nothing against peaceful followers of the faith (I have problems with the Koran, though) but I really don't support the erection of the mosque.

Also, if you think that protestation of a distastefully located mosque is a blight on humanity, I suggest you check out "Non-Western civilization" and what goes on there for perspective


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## seancarleton77 (Jul 4, 2006)

.BD said:


> Not really. I have nothing against peaceful followers of the faith (I have problems with the Koran, though) but I really don't support the erection of the mosque.
> 
> Also, if you think that protestation of a distastefully located mosque is a blight on humanity, I suggest you check out "Non-Western civilization" and what goes on there for perspective


I shouldn't have quoted the whole thing, the vandalism part got me upset, if that happens that would be like Canada extraditing one of our own Marc Emery to the United States for committing victim less crimes.


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## BruiserKC (Mar 14, 2010)

Medo, I appreciate the fact you're willing to stand up and condemn the radical Islamists that have hijacked your religion for their own nefarious means. Too bad more of your fellow Muslims don't do the same. 

I know that people all around the world want to apologize for radical Islam and that if we play nice with these monsters that they will leave us alone. But the truth remains that 1948 was the year that Israel and Transjordan were to be created, but the Arabs wanted all of it and wanted to push Israel into the sea. In 1990, when Iraq invaded Kuwait and was considering pushing into Saudi Arabia, the Saudi king asked U.S. forces to enter the country and protect them. Osama was pissed because he wanted to use the mujahadeen fighters and his own men to do it. 

They want to kill us, I don't care to justify why they want to or ask to understand why they do what they do. To me, it's no different than dealing with a bully in school. I wanted the bully to stop picking on me, and if that meant hauling off and punching him so be it. Some say we're the bullies, but if we really wanted to we could wipe the Islamists off the face of the earth. The fact we haven't should say something about restraint (or cowardice if that's how you see it). 

I don't want a mosque at Ground Zero. It would be in absolute poor taste. There will be people who will pilgrimage there to celebrate 9/11, just as many people throughout the world cheered when the towers fell. And, it would go beyond vandalism. Someone would be pissed off enough to burn that thing down.


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## Oda Nobunaga (Jun 12, 2006)

Like Islam, Christianity has committed many atrocious acts throughout history. Neither are innocent. However, I will say a Mosque at Ground Zero is perhaps tasteless, just as tasteless as building a Church on former Native American burial mounds and so forth. They say the United States is a country of free people, of free minds - this will indeed test that mentality.


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## Tempest (Apr 19, 2006)

What a slap in the face to all of the people that died and their families who have to watch this shit get built. :no:


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## DestrosSecret (Dec 23, 2007)

For the record, I'm building a mosque right next to my house. That way all the muslims in the world wont fly their jumbo jets into my house in case Mohammed is in there.

Fact.

EDIT:- I read some of the thread. This is really really disappointing. You guys realize that not every muslim was in on the 9/11 thing right?


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## Schultz (May 19, 2007)

It's disgusting, nothing else needs to be said on the matter. It reminds me a lot of the Islamic March through Wooton Bassett that was supposed to happen. Sometimes, things go too far and should never happen, the islamic march, and this is, are examples of this case.


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## DestrosSecret (Dec 23, 2007)

The Islamic march in Wooton Basset was going to be carried out by a 8 guys who've been kicked out of every mosque this side of Mecca.


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## Panzer (May 31, 2007)

BruiserKC said:


> But the truth remains that 1948 was the year that Israel and Transjordan were to be created, but the Arabs wanted all of it and wanted to push Israel into the sea.


Foreign international powers forcing a country to host another in their own borders that resulted in millions of people being displaced from their homes and forced to live in designated areas only to have the parasite country annex more land and push around more local inhabitants for their own selfish needs that resulted in decades of war and strife and millions of lives lost that continue to this day. All of this to bring on some archaic, religious prophecy and for superpowers to flex their muscles in that part of the world. 

It wasn't the Arabs fault there. Arabs, not Muslims because non-Muslim Arabs suffered as well. So please don't use any arguments that involves Arabs being bullied to prove a point that Muslims bully. They do, but this is a horrible example.


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## SaveMeCM (Feb 7, 2010)

DestrosSecret said:


> For the record, I'm building a mosque right next to my house. That way all the muslims in the world wont fly their jumbo jets into my house in case Mohammed is in there.
> 
> Fact.
> 
> EDIT:- I read some of the thread. This is really really disappointing. You guys realize that not every muslim was in on the 9/11 thing right?


Yes, every Muslim was not in on 9/11. But, every Muslim has the same holy book, the Quran, which was supposedly written by God himself, and that book says that truly devout Muslims should be killing non-believers. God's favourite Muslims are those that kill non-believers. This is not "radical" Islam, this is the true Islam. In their minds as written by God's own hand.

This is a bad place for a mosque.


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## Panzer (May 31, 2007)

SaveMeCM said:


> Yes, every Muslim was not in on 9/11. But, every Muslim has the same holy book, the Quran, which was supposedly written by God himself, and that book says that truly devout Muslims should be killing non-believers. God's favourite Muslims are those that kill non-believers. This is not "radical" Islam, this is the true Islam. In their minds as written by God's own hand.
> 
> This is a bad place for a mosque.


The Quran works like the Bible in ways. There's passages that tell you to kill outright and then there's some that tell you to preserve life. Which one to believe in? Both because you have to follow your god's word to a tee. No excuses. That's how dogma works. Then you might ask "How can I preserve and kill at the same time?" You can't. That's why the books are stupid. So we're guessing it means kill certain people's but leave your own alone. And Muslims don't have 2 distinct sections of their holy book so they can't use the lame excuse the Christians use about ignoring OT laws even though they cherry pick them regardless.

If there's thousands of interpretations of something, than there isn't a true interpretation of it. The Moderates are reading from the same thing as the Radicals and who's to say that the other is wrong and they are right in their interpretation?


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## MrMister (Mar 11, 2005)

Panther said:


> If there's thousands of interpretations of something, than there isn't a true interpretation of it. The Moderates are reading from the same thing as the Radicals and who's to say that the other is wrong and they are right in their interpretation?


It doesn't matter. Jack Van Impe is the only one who is right.


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## Panzer (May 31, 2007)

MrMister said:


> It doesn't matter. Jack Van Impe is the only one who is right.


Bullshit. I'm writing my own interpretation of the Bible and the Quran and everything else will be heretical. $14.95. Buy or die.


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## Stevencc (Aug 31, 2009)

Lol, its two blocks away from ground zero. It would be kinda weird if the plopped it down on top of the former standing place of the twin towers. But to me, this isn't a problem.


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## MrMister (Mar 11, 2005)

Panther said:


> Bullshit. I'm writing my own interpretation of the Bible and the Quran and everything else will be heretical. $14.95. Buy or die.


Have you ever watched Jack Van Impe Ministries? The dude's a genius. His intelligence is only outmatched by his wife's Rexella's hotness.


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## Panzer (May 31, 2007)

MrMister said:


> Have you ever watched Jack Van Impe Ministries? The dude's a genius. His intelligence is only outmatched by his wife's Rexella's hotness.


Well I fucked his wife, pissed on his Kenny G. CD collection and stole his car. Therefore, I win.


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## MrMister (Mar 11, 2005)

Lies. Rexella would never cheat on her Van Impe. 

You've clearly never seen this show. Look it up. It's fucking hilarious.

And by hilarious, I mean embarrassingly retarded.


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## Panzer (May 31, 2007)

MrMister said:


> Lies. Rexella would never cheat on her Van Impe.
> 
> You've clearly never seen this show. Look it up. It's fucking hilarious.
> 
> And by hilarious, I mean embarrassingly retarded.


His show has some kick ass graphics. I'll give him that. And committing sodomy with his wife while she denounces Jesus Christ and watches Bill Maher was a sight to see.


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## Don Draper (Mar 4, 2010)

^Damn, shame I missed it, I bet she's hot. You didn't make her scream too loud did ya pal? You don't want to alert the neighbors.


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## MrMister (Mar 11, 2005)

Dude is totally bat shit insane crazy insane. 

You really don't even need to put the flames behind him, nor give him horns. He's fucking nuts. His lunacy speaks for itself.

I'm sure Jack Van Impe disapproves of the mosque at ground zero. Or maybe he approves if it'll bring about the second coming.


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## Panzer (May 31, 2007)

MrMister said:


> Dude is totally bat shit insane crazy insane.
> 
> You really don't even need to put the flames behind him, nor give him horns. He's fucking nuts. His lunacy speaks for itself.
> 
> I'm sure Jack Van Impe disapproves of the mosque at ground zero. Or maybe he approves if it'll bring about the second coming.


What really got me was that his name is Jack *Van Imp*e.

OH YOUR GOD! HE'S A NAZI DEMON!


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## Art Vandaley (Jan 9, 2006)

Some kind of centre with a Mosque, Church, Synagogue, Buddhist Temple and a couple of others near ground zero would be good, let it be a symbol of peacefully coexistant religions, the triumph of American tolerance over the aggravation of extremism. 

But the way they are doing it sounds stupid.


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## Goku (Feb 25, 2007)

Tie the knot and hope for the best?


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## Oda Nobunaga (Jun 12, 2006)

Alkomesh2 said:


> Some kind of centre with a Mosque, Church, Synagogue, Buddhist Temple and a couple of others near ground zero would be good, let it be a symbol of peacefully coexistant religions, the triumph of American tolerance over the aggravation of extremism.
> 
> But the way they are doing it sounds stupid.


Would actually not be a bad idea. I'd like a Buddhist Temple.


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## Toots Dalton (Feb 8, 2010)

Alkomesh2 said:


> Some kind of centre with a Mosque, Church, Synagogue, Buddhist Temple and a couple of others near ground zero would be good, let it be a symbol of peacefully coexistant religions, the triumph of American tolerance over the aggravation of extremism.
> 
> But the way they are doing it sounds stupid.


Good idea, will never happen though.


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## SaveMeCM (Feb 7, 2010)

Sarah Palin is now coming out against the mosque. The only time I've agreed with her on anything, ever.

I don't know if it has been mentioned, but Islam has been known to erect mosques on conquered lands. This is the same symbolism the Muslims behind the mosque in NYC likely have in mind. This is a monument to terrorism, and NYC looks damn soft giving this kind of satisfaction to Muslim terrorists and those that support them.

We should not be fooled into thinking this has anything to do with reaching out to other faiths or whatever bullshit we're hearing. You think Muslims in general give a shit about the thousands that died? I don't. Not if they are proper Muslims. Even the most peaceful and compassionate Muslims hold it to be true that the thousands of non-Muslims killed in the WTC attacks are now being tortured in hell, and deservingly so because they didn't accept the invisible Allah as their slave master.


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## Arya Dark (Sep 8, 2006)

*Would a snake handling church be too much to ask for?*


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## just1988 (Jun 15, 2009)

This is a bad idea seing as 'Ground Zero' is the site of the only act of terrorism in the history of the world ever. I mean how could they allow an Islamic mosque of all seen as near as 2 little blocks away from Ground Zero.

I mean at the end of the day America has never been responsble for the deaths of any innocent people ever and then gone on to fill the local areas of such places with things like military bases and then glorify what they've done by having America based internatonal companies come out and indorse the actions of America.

Sarcasm, if you havn't already guessed. I think putting a mosque in such a location will help to bridge the gap showing their is no harsh feelings on either side. A lot of you guys have come on here and bashed Islam and you'll all have persuded yourselves that you're correct in how you think. I myself am agnostic and arn't niaive enough to think I know everything about everything, but what I do know is America has bred a hatred for Islam through the acts of 9/11 because the people who committed the attacks said they were doing it for Islam. This is a comlete bullshit, the guys who had a hand in 9/11 were just mentalists, if there was sufficent proof that they'd committed the attacks for something else, would there be a war on that? For example, if it was said they did it for thier love fo wrestling would America have forged a hatred for wrestling? No of course not they would of said these guys were insane. But seing as they did it because of religion it gave a lot of people the fuel for their racist fires to come out and be anti-Islam.

For some blogger to come out and say that it's a "slap in the face" needs one. This is a 'We Love Terrorism' club (the acts which America both commit and fund abroad could and maybe should themsleves be catagorised as terrorism, but I digress). This is an Islamic mosque, a place where people can go to worship God and learn about the religion. It is not there to glorify the towers being knocked over, nor should the connection be made.

Now I could rant on this all day, but I'll abstain from that. The events of 9/11 were tragic and should never be forgotten, if the powers that be feel that this centre could serve as a reminder aswel as helping heal the wounds then I think we should all be behind it and hope for a better future. *insert harp music*


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## Cycløps (Oct 24, 2008)

I can't believe this. I live an hour away from the Twin Towers and I remember the day it happened. This is bullshit if it is true, such a slap in the face to all the innocent people who died, and the brave souls who helped save them.


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## Do Your Fcking Job (Feb 9, 2009)

Quick question:

Are Muslims as disliked in the US as they are in the UK?

Not saying I dislike them, just wondering.


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## CGS (Feb 7, 2004)

Do Your Fcking Job said:


> Quick question:
> 
> Are Muslims as disliked in the US as they are in the UK?
> 
> Not saying I dislike them, just wondering.


Not 100% sure but chances are they are more disliked over in the US than in the UK. 

Any the hypocrisy of some of the posters on here is a joke tbh and it just goes to show how very little they know about Islam in generally and are just willing to generalise a whole religion on the basis on what a few people muslims did. Not to mention if you ask any muslim person about them they will immediately turn around and say they are not true muslims because of the actions they have taken. 

Yes its not a bad idea but some of you are making it out as if America has done nothing wrong to anyone and was just attacked randomly and continue to be stomped on. Now Im not defending what those stupid extremists did but I hardly see this as a "tasteless act". Chances are 90% of the people who will go to the mosque hated 9/11 and have a great deal of resentment for the people who did what they did. Please do not generalise a entire religion until you know a little something about them.


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## JuviJuiceIsLoose (Mar 27, 2009)

This is the Free Market at work. I thought people like Sarah Palin loved the Free Market. This is also people exercising their Freedom of Religion. Which is in that Constitution that Sarah Palin claims to love so much.

Would people have a problem if a Christian Church was built a few blocks away from the Oklahoma City Federal Building? Because Terry Nichols and Tim McVeigh were Christians.


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## Arya Dark (Sep 8, 2006)

JuviJuiceIsLoose said:


> This is the Free Market at work. I thought people like Sarah Palin loved the Free Market. This is also people exercising their *Freedom of Religion.* Which is in that Constitution that Sarah Palin claims to love so much.
> 
> Would people have a problem if a Christian Church was built a few blocks away from the Oklahoma City Federal Building? Because Terry Nichols and Tim McVeigh were Christians.


*Some people like to confuse Freedom of Religion for Freedom from Religion.... especially if it's not their religion.



Sad but true.*


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## MrMister (Mar 11, 2005)

This is an older thread but I still approve of putting a mosque at ground zero. I still think it gives a middle finger to the terrorists that committed this act of violence. It proves we're still a free tolerant society (for the most part, but that's another issue).


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## Enigma (Aug 27, 2006)

Wow, what a load of ignorant morons there are in this thread. To those who said they wouldn't mind if the mosque was blown up - that makes you the same as the terrorists.

I hate this forum sometimes.


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## SaveMeCM (Feb 7, 2010)

just1988 said:


> I mean at the end of the day America has never been responsble for the deaths of any innocent people ever and then gone on to fill the local areas of such places with things like military bases and then glorify what they've done by having America based internatonal companies come out and indorse the actions of America.


Two wrongs don't make a right.



> But seing as they did it because of religion it gave a lot of people the fuel for their racist fires to come out and be anti-Islam.


Yeah, we're just racists. That's like saying someone is racist against whites for not wanting to see a memorial to the great Ku Klux Klan on the same spot where a bunch of blacks were gunned down.


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## SPCDRI (Mar 15, 2010)

My understanding is that its not a mosque, but rather an ecumenical and interfaith community center/rec center. And that it will have a swimming pool and an arcade and all sorts of neat stuff. And that it will not be "RIGHT ON GROUND ZERO!" but rather 3 miles away.

Personally I'd love for my city to get one of these things. There isn't anything to do around here and it sounds really nice.


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## MrMister (Mar 11, 2005)

SPCDRI said:


> My understanding is that its not a mosque, but rather an ecumenical and interfaith community center/rec center. And that it will have a swimming pool and an arcade and all sorts of neat stuff. And that it will not be "RIGHT ON GROUND ZERO!" but rather 3 miles away.
> 
> Personally I'd love for my city to get one of these things. There isn't anything to do around here and it sounds really nice.


So people are totally overreacting over nothing? I'm highly amused by this now.


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## Ratedr4life (Dec 18, 2008)

There are a lot of blind haters of this forums. Though I am atheist, I grew up in a semi-muslim family, not the crazy radical Islam, just the regular religion. You can't blame a whole religion for what happened on 9/11.

Unfortunately 9/11 and Islam are forever tied intertwined, which is why I am gonna have to take a look at the situation and say this is a bad idea, just like there are retarded muslims, there are retarded Americans who would take this as a sign of disrespect and attack the mosque anyway. 

My advice would be not to build it there.


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## Enigma (Aug 27, 2006)

SaveMeCM said:


> Sarah Palin is now coming out against the mosque. The only time I've agreed with her on anything, ever.
> 
> I don't know if it has been mentioned, but Islam has been known to erect mosques on conquered lands. This is the same symbolism the Muslims behind the mosque in NYC likely have in mind. This is a monument to terrorism, and NYC looks damn soft giving this kind of satisfaction to Muslim terrorists and those that support them.
> 
> We should not be fooled into thinking this has anything to do with reaching out to other faiths or whatever bullshit we're hearing. You think Muslims in general give a shit about the thousands that died? I don't. Not if they are proper Muslims. Even the most peaceful and compassionate Muslims hold it to be true that the thousands of non-Muslims killed in the WTC attacks are now being tortured in hell, and deservingly so because they didn't accept the invisible Allah as their slave master.


So all Muslims are to blame for 9/11? Where is your 'God Bless America' stance when it comes to pointless, irrational wars in which YOUR country is doing the killing and torturing of non-Christians? Islam is not to blame for 9/11 - the mindless acts of terrorists masquerading as Muslims are. 

What if it had been some mentally ill Christian guy who organised 9/11? Would you tear up plans for churches to be built nearby?

You've been spun a web of lies and seemingly you have fallen straight into it.


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## MrMister (Mar 11, 2005)

Ratedr4life said:


> There are a lot of blind haters of this forums. Though I am atheist, I grew up in a semi-muslim family, not the crazy radical Islam, just the regular religion. You can't blame a whole religion for what happened on 9/11.
> 
> Unfortunately 9/11 and Islam are forever tied intertwined, which is why I am gonna have to take a look at the situation and say this is a bad idea, just like there are retarded muslims, there are retarded Americans who would take this as a sign of disrespect and attack the mosque anyway.
> 
> My advice would be not to build it there.


That's why we have police/FBI etc. though. To thwart senseless attacks. The price of freedom is eternal vigilance. I first heard that from a video game with Mark Hamill.


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## SaveMeCM (Feb 7, 2010)

Enigma said:


> So all Muslims are to blame for 9/11?


Where was that said? Just because "all" white supremacists did not gun down a large group of blacks, and only a few people were responsible for it, does that mean it's ok for a memorial to the Ku Klux Klan to be built on the spot where the blacks were gunned down? Would it be racist against whites to protest the memorial?



> Where is your 'God Bless America' stance when it comes to pointless, irrational wars in which YOUR country is doing the killing and torturing of non-Christians?


My country was smart enough to stay the hell out of Iraq.


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## Enigma (Aug 27, 2006)

SaveMeCM said:


> My country was smart enough to stay the hell out of Iraq.


Apologies, I'm far too tired; I assumed you were from the US.


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## McQueen (Jul 17, 2006)

Nothing against Islam in general aside from the fact I think all religion is fucking stupid and in this instance gave a small group of evil people an excuse to commit an act of terror, but a mosque at the WTC site just screams bad taste to me.


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## MDizzle (Jan 5, 2007)

Fuck ... that.

I'm not the least bit religious but take pride in my country and doing this is not just a slap in the face to me or this country, but it would be slap in the face to the families that lost a loved one in the tragedy.

We got a bunch of idiots in power in this country.


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## Do Your Fcking Job (Feb 9, 2009)

McQueen said:


> *Nothing against Islam *in general aside from the fact I think all religion is fucking stupid and in this instance gave a small group of evil people an excuse to commit an act of terror, but a mosque at the WTC site just screams bad taste to me.


Id suggest that most sane people should have something against Islam and not tolerate it anymore.

The Koran makes erm...interesting reading. On a whole, its not a particularity nice religion.

Then again, neither is Christianity, but they don't deem fit ti blow themselves and others up.

Nothing against Muslims as such, but Islam? Im afraid to say I do have many, many issues with.


----------



## afkatk (May 4, 2007)

Do Your Fcking Job said:


> Id suggest that most sane people should have something against Islam and not tolerate it anymore.
> 
> The Koran makes erm...interesting reading. On a whole, its not a particularity nice religion.
> 
> ...


Violence is in this world whether you like it or not, even if Religious people are violent and kill people you can't exactly make an argument that non-religious folk don't hurt people or insinuate it for that matter.


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## Rush (May 1, 2007)

Do Your Fcking Job said:


> Id suggest that most sane people should have something against Islam and not tolerate it anymore.
> 
> The Koran makes erm...interesting reading. On a whole, its not a particularity nice religion.
> 
> ...


You do realise what you just said? Islam = a religion, Muslim = an adherent of Islam. So what you just said was, i don't have anything against you guys, but your religion, which your entire beliefs are based on, is only for the insane.


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## seancarleton77 (Jul 4, 2006)

Does anyone else have an issue with the title, "Plans for Islamic Mosque at Ground Zero?" I'm pretty sure Plans for Mosque at Ground Zero would have done, but you know they had to stir the pot by adding the ever evil... gasp "Islamic" to the title, what, were we going get it confused with a Knitting Mosque.


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## just1988 (Jun 15, 2009)

SaveMeCM said:


> Two wrongs don't make a right.
> 
> 
> Yeah, we're just racists. That's like saying someone is racist against whites for not wanting to see a memorial to the great Ku Klux Klan on the same spot where a bunch of blacks were gunned down.


Yeah but what if there was a Church built near where some black guys got gunned down, would that get the same uproar? It's not like it's an Al-Queda centre going up, it's an Islamic mosque, to very different things and for you to try and liken to two trying to say that Church's are the me thing as KKK meeting halls.


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## Panzer (May 31, 2007)

JuviJuiceIsLoose said:


> This is the Free Market at work. I thought people like Sarah Palin loved the Free Market. This is also people exercising their Freedom of Religion. Which is in that Constitution that Sarah Palin claims to love so much.
> 
> Would people have a problem if a Christian Church was built a few blocks away from the Oklahoma City Federal Building? Because Terry Nichols and Tim McVeigh were Christians.


It's not a Free Market when big corporations have a monopoly on everything. If you want a real Free Market, move to an Anarchist community.

Anyway, I've already said all I had to say on this matter of the mosque back in May.


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## CBRSP17573 (Jun 18, 2009)

Panther said:


> It's not a Free Market when big corporations have a monopoly on everything. If you want a real Free Market, move to an Anarchist community.
> 
> Anyway, I've already said all I had to say on this matter of the mosque back in May.


You're saying Anarchy is directly correlated with free market?


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## MrMister (Mar 11, 2005)

Authority corrupts a free market is all he's saying I'm pretty sure. So basically a free market can't exist.


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## CGS (Feb 7, 2004)

Do Your Fcking Job said:


> Id suggest that most sane people should have something against Islam and not tolerate it anymore.
> 
> The Koran makes erm...interesting reading. On a whole, its not a particularity nice religion.
> 
> ...


Your making it sound as if everyone in the religion supports what the select few did. Like I said before Most people resent what does so called "muslims" did. It was a few violent people who made 9/11 happen so don't take it out on the entire religion.


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## CBRSP17573 (Jun 18, 2009)

MrMister said:


> Authority corrupts a free market is all he's saying I'm pretty sure. So basically a free market can't exist.


Ah, that would be more fair, but truthfully anything can corrupt a free market not just an Authority.


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## SaveMeCM (Feb 7, 2010)

just1988 said:


> Yeah but what if there was a Church built near where some black guys got gunned down, would that get the same uproar?


These are not comparable. The Bible does not have verses saying "kill nlggers and you get a special paradise with all the sex you want".

I don't respect Christianity any more than I respect Islam, but I doubt the blacks or their families would care if a Church was put on the spot they were killed. They'd probably appreciate it, since most blacks have been indoctrinated from birth with that Christian nonsense. What about the families of the victims of the WTC attacks though? Do they want to see a symbol of Islam conquering and succeeding with it's most impressive attack to date right next to where thousands died?

One of the main people behind building the mosque is in support of people having to submit to Sharia law. Many Muslims are great people, but those behind this mosque are not.


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## ColeStar (Apr 13, 2006)

It's a very bad idea in my opinion. I understand that in a liberal democracy such as the USA, there should be the right to build places of worship anywhere. However in this case, I think the planners would be well-advised to change their plans.

However, some of the Islamophobic comments posited thus far are reprehensible. As is some of the anti-American nonsense I've read, such as this:



TheLoneShark said:


> Islamic Extremists, not supremacists, were _directly_ responsible for 9/11, but it was White Supremacy that was responsible if you go right back to the start. If you guys had stayed the fuck outta their business in the first place, they wouldn't have felt the need to retaliate.
> 
> Not saying it's right, just saying that everything has a reason. The Islamic extremists attacked the US because American have been raping their country of natural resources and trying to force your own bullshit religion on them.
> 
> ...


Apart from the penultimate paragraph, all of this is ignorant nonsense of the highest order.


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## Panzer (May 31, 2007)

MrMister said:


> Authority corrupts a free market is all he's saying I'm pretty sure. So basically a free market can't exist.


Bingo.


----------



## What 3:16 (Jul 31, 2008)

'It's political correctness gone mad!'


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## Panzer (May 31, 2007)

What 3:16 said:


> 'It's political correctness gone mad!'


Religious correctness is more like it.


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## JuviJuiceIsLoose (Mar 27, 2009)

What 3:16 said:


> 'It's political correctness gone mad!'


What exactly is "PC" about allowing someone to buy property?

They had the money to purchase the land, and they did.


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## BruiserKC (Mar 14, 2010)

It's all in absolute poor taste. Should the Japanese put up a memorial at Pearl Harbor? Or maybe the Turks should have some memorial in Armenia to the genocide they committed there during World War I. 

I understand that free market rules...but certain things I just can't do. Maybe PETA should have a steak fry why while we're at it.


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## MrMister (Mar 11, 2005)

It's fine if you think it's in poor taste but your reasoning seems a bit off to me Bruiser.


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## McQueen (Jul 17, 2006)

I'm not against it myself and not going to get angry if it does happen but yeah it does seem in somewhat poor tastes given what i'm sure are good intentions. I'm more worried about it sparking a riot or something because someone is offended by it to the point of violence, which i'd guess will happen.


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## stevefox1200 (Jul 7, 2009)

Mosques and other non Christan places of worship are starting to be like McDonald's, one on ever corner

(not to say churches weren't) :side:

Being serious thought why do things like this bring out the worst in everyone? Liberals are bitching Conservatives are closed minded, Anti Americans and bitching about America and all sorts of other crap. 

To me this seems like a publicity stunt that looks good on for liberals to show how tolerant they are and how conservatives and people who complain are racist and conservatives how protective they are and to show how liberals have no logical thinking and don't care about the public

In short I see no reasons things like this can possibly go well


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## dan the marino (Oct 22, 2006)

I think someone said it is more like a multicultural center, so if that's the case then it really isn't a big deal at all.


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## 21 - 1 (Jan 8, 2010)

It's going to be a sad day for society if this goes ahead. Any complaints brought against this will probably be written off by politically correct sheep as racism or, better yet, Islamophobia.


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## MrMister (Mar 11, 2005)

Vintage Undertaker said:


> It's going to be a sad day for society if this goes ahead. Any complaints brought against this will probably be written off by politically correct sheep as racism or, better yet, Islamophobia.


I write off complaints about this as a lack of understanding of what this country should be about.


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## Panzer (May 31, 2007)

stevefox1200 said:


> Mosques and other non Christan places of worship are starting to be like McDonald's, one on ever corner
> 
> (not to say churches weren't) :side:
> 
> ...


It's simple. There are a number of Muslims in that area and they need a Mosque. 

Christians are just afraid of competition.


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## BruiserKC (Mar 14, 2010)

MrMister said:


> It's fine if you think it's in poor taste but your reasoning seems a bit off to me Bruiser.


My reasoning is this...it is in poor taste and doesn't belong at that particular site because of what people might think it to represent. 

I'm not one of those that believes all Muslims are terrorists, but radical Islam is a huge threat to the world not only in the U.S. but elsewhere. 9/11 was an attack by those who believe in a new Caliphate and that America is a serious threat to it. 

Going back to my previous example...in Berlin they have monuments dedicated to fallen Soviet soldiers. I'm pretty sure you ask most Germans and they don't want it there. If Japan wanted to put some type of memorial or temple near Pearl Harbor, there would be a major uproar. Those who propose a mosque there may have peaceful intentions, but it would just not be right. 

Plus, as I've said before, if they tried to build it, someone would blow it up or set fire to it. Why risk something that may be seriously taken the wrong way.


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## seancarleton77 (Jul 4, 2006)

Not the same thing, a nation attacked Pearl Harbor, not a few bat shit religious extremists. It's a Cultural Center and Mosque, the right wing source of this article left out many details, and it wasn't an accident.


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## Enigma (Aug 27, 2006)

seancarleton77 said:


> Not the same thing, a nation attacked Pearl Harbor, not a few bat shit religious extremists. It's a Cultural Center and Mosque, the right win source of this article left out many details, and it wasn't an accident.


Spot on, one of the very few people in this thread to understand it.


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## alejbr4 (May 31, 2009)

JPH said:


> I hope the mosque and all of the Islamics get blown up personally.


ill be sure to tell my cousin that when he rolls up in his wheel chair from it getting his legs blown off in iraq about how much you love his hard work


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## sharpshooter1991 (Aug 12, 2009)

Anyone else seen this from Greg Gutfeld?



> “So, the Muslim investors championing the construction of the new mosque near Ground Zero claim it’s all about strengthening the relationship between the Muslim and non-Muslim world.
> 
> As an American, I believe they have every right to build the mosque – after all, if they buy the land and they follow the law – who can stop them?
> 
> ...


http://www.mediaite.com/tv/greg-gutfield-to-open-a-gay-bar-next-to-ground-zero-mosque-to-cater-to-islamic-gay-men/

Serious or not this is brilliant. There is a very good point in all of this, if the mosque is aimed at increasing tolerance and following the commercial principle they bought the land so can build what they want on it, they cannot object to a gay bar being built next door without looking hugely hypocritical (for what its worth i don't have a problem with the proposed mosque in the first place).


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## MrMister (Mar 11, 2005)

It's gotta be a joke because the bar would go out of business in a day (hyperbole).

Joke or not, it's a good point and it would be interesting to see how tolerant these people who preach tolerance are. I'm betting they won't have a problem with it. I'll get richer off of that bet too.


----------



## arjun14626rko (Apr 1, 2005)

sharpshooter1991 said:


> Anyone else seen this from Greg Gutfeld?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That is excellent. Homosexuality has a special vehemence to it for many Muslims. I think things might be improving, but as you said, brilliant.


----------



## Samee (Mar 1, 2010)

I knew it was a bad idea for me to open this thread.

*leaves*


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## SaveMeCM (Feb 7, 2010)

> ill be sure to tell my cousin that when he rolls up in his wheel chair from it getting his legs blown off in iraq about how much you love his hard work


I think it's fantastic that your cousin is a "moderate" and doesn't actually follow what his Quran tells him. I've got to respect that. But that doesn't make Islam itself any less evil or disgusting.

Edit - Sorry. The guy you quoted was being an asshole. I didn't read that close enough. Being against the mosque is not necessarily being against Muslims though. The mosque not being there is not stopping any Muslim from practicing their religion, and I have a problem with the people behind this mosque. They were/are going to open the mosque on September 11, 2011, and there's no possible way that can be looked at as honouring the victims.

I just wish more US leaders would have the balls to speak out against Islam and call it what it is. A death cult, started up by a pedophile who was married to and fucked a 9 year old girl. Just because the majority of Muslims are non-violent, that doesn't mean the ones actually following Islam as directed by God himself are not true Muslims. They most certainly are true Muslims, and I'm not just talking out of my ass. The Quran at my bedside supports my claims. I wish more leaders would treat faith as it should be treated. Not as a virtue, but as glorified ignorance.



sharpshooter1991 said:


> Anyone else seen this from Greg Gutfeld?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah, Greg was talking about this on O'Reilly a few days ago (the biggot O'Reilly of course was against the idea). Greg said he got some emails or whatever from Muslims who said the sensibilities of Muslims should be respected and that this would be offensive haha. I think it's a great idea and I'd donate to that cause.


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## Panzer (May 31, 2007)

Oh haha. Just found out that there's already mosques near Ground Zero. One of which is almost 40 years old.


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## Aaron510 (Jun 10, 2008)

I personally didn't read that news cuz it is coming for a conservative media.. and they are not only biased but also racist too..

as far as the Mosque goes.. I wouldn't agreee simply because it will create more stir and problems for muslims in NY and other western societies.. I mean civillian average muslims don't deserve to be discriminated no matter where they live..the creation of this mosque will bring all those negative insults that muslims have to deal with.. personally i am against discrimination..

as far as the 9/11 goes.. i blame extremist from both sides.. muslim extrem terrorsits for blowing up the buildings and carrying out the opporation.. I blame extrem christain and Jews for attacking the muslim societies.. 

why can't we just let people live.. and let them decide which religion they would choose..


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## MrMister (Mar 11, 2005)

Panther said:


> Oh haha. Just found out that there's already mosques near Ground Zero. One of which is almost 40 years old.


I am amused.


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## SaveMeCM (Feb 7, 2010)

Of course there are other mosques in the area. All the more reason they don't need this one 

In general, I hold the belief that no one has the right not to be offended. So maybe I'm wrong on this. I really don't know. This could have gone away though, if the mayor had named the building a historic landmark, because debris from the towers hit the building. Maybe that's not completely logical, but it wouldn't have been taking away anyone's freedom of religion, and they could have built elsewhere. How far does freedom of religion go anyways? Do we let them put up a billboard too with a picture of the towers on fire which includes nasty verses from the Quran? I know that such a billboard is not quite the same thing as this new mosque, but millions of people would equate them to be basically the same thing. Symbols of Islamic dominance (the existing mosques are irrelavant to me since they were built before the attacks, and there was no reason they shouldn't have been built). Nothing against the average Muslim, but fuck those who choose to rub it in the face of the victims families (why else would they choose the closest spot they could to the greatest attack in Islam's history, and plan to open it on the ten year anniversary, to the day?).

Maybe it's for the best though that the mosque will be built, since these people are only hurting the image of Islam.


----------



## Arya Dark (Sep 8, 2006)

Aaron510 said:


> I personally didn't read that news cuz it is coming for a conservative media.. and they are not only biased but also racist too..


*You're delusional if you think the liberal media are any better. 




And this is going up on private property. I have absolutely no problem with it. I do like Greg Gutfeld's idea though. *


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## SaveMeCM (Feb 7, 2010)

I also wanted to post this for those in this thread claiming the 9/11 attackers were not true Muslims, or that Islam does not condone such acts. You folks haven't been reading your Qurans, have ya?


# For disbelievers is a painful doom. 2:104

# For unbelievers: ignominy in this world, an awful doom in the next. 2:114

# "Fight in the way of Allah." 2:190, 2:244

# Believers must retaliate. Those who transgress will have a painful doom. 2:178

# Kill disbelievers wherever you find them. If they attack you, then kill them. Such is the reward of disbelievers. (But if they desist in their unbelief, then don't kill them.) 2:191-2

# War is ordained by Allah, and all Muslims must be willing to fight, whether they like it or not. 2:216

# Those who disbelieve the revelations of Allah, theirs will be a heavy doom. 3:4

# Those who disbelieve shall be overcome and gathered unto Hell. 3:12

# Those who disbelieve, promise them a painful doom. 3:21

# Apostates will be cursed by Allah, angels, and men. They will have a painful doom. 3:86-88

# We shall cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Their habitation is the Fire 3:151

# If you die fighting for Allah, you'll be rewarded in heaven. 3:157

# "Our Lord! Whom Thou causest to enter the Fire: him indeed Thou hast confounded. For evil-doers there will be no helpers." 3:192

# Those who die fighting for Allah will go to heaven. 3:195

# "Sanction is given unto those who fight because they have been wronged." 
Quoted by Osama bin Laden in his 'letter to America' as a justification for the 11 September 2001 attacks. 4:39

# Allah will bestow a vast reward on those who fight in religious wars. 4:74

# Believers fight for Allah; disbelievers fight for the devil. So fight the minions of the devil. 4:76

# Have no unbelieving friends. Kill the unbelievers wherever you find them. 4:89

# If the unbelievers do not offer you peace, kill them wherever you find them. Against such you are given clear warrant. 4:91

# Those who make war with Allah and his messenger will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. That is how they will be treated in this world, and in the next they will have an awful doom. 5:33

# Let the idolaters kill their children. It is Allah's will. 6:137

# How many a township have We destroyed! As a raid by night, or while they slept at noon, Our terror came unto them. 7:4-5

# When you fight with disbelievers, do not retreat. Those who do will go to hell. 8:15-16

# Those that the Muslims killed were not really killed by them. It was Allah who did the killing. 8:17

# Give tidings (O Muhammad) of a painful doom to those who disbelieve. 9:3

# If you refuse to fight, Allah will afflict you with a painful doom. 9:39

# "Allah will afflict you with a doom from Him or at our hands." 9:52

# Allah will afflict disbelievers with a painful doom in this world and the Hereafter. 9:74

# Believers must fight for Allah. They must kill and be killed , and are bound to do so by the Torah, Gospel, and Quran. But Allah will reward them for it. 9:111

# Fight disbelievers who are near you, and let them see the harshness in you. 9:123

# Those who oppose Islam will face an awful doom. 16:94

# "There are many unto whom the doom is justly due. Allah doeth what he will." 22:18

# Those who deny Muhammad's revelations will be destroyed. 25:36

# Those who oppose Islam will be slain with a fierce slaughter. 33:60-61

# Those who ignore Allah's "clear proofs" will be seized and punished severely. 40:22

# If you refuse to fight for Allah, he will punish you with a painful doom. 48:16

# Those with Muhammad are ruthless toward disbelievers and merciful toward themselves. 48:29

# Allah loves those who fight for him. 61:4

# Be stern with disbelievers. They are going to Hell anyway. 66:9


Lovely, isn't it? Islam, the religion of peace


----------



## llamadux (Dec 26, 2008)

Think I saw this on the daily show. He said the mosque will about a block away from ground zero. Not directly at it but of course saying its a block away wouldn't be a good news story for Fox.


----------



## Arya Dark (Sep 8, 2006)

*It's actually two blocks away... and that's what Fox reports as well. Where do you people get this stuff? *


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## Muerte al fascismo (Feb 3, 2008)

Building the Mosque would do more for undermining religious extremism then any military action of the last 15 years.


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## seancarleton77 (Jul 4, 2006)

THIS IS NOT A MOSQUE

Besides the point there is probably already a Mosque near that area, and people just get mad when some jerk off tv personality said "I'm mad that terrorists are getting their own way, aren't you?" and people watching say "Yeah. I guess I am mad, goddamn Muslims! They're probably workin' with the gays and the blacks too"

By the way is there anyone puzzled that there still hasn't really been anything done with ground zero? That's good old corporate American sleaze and grease ball politics for you.


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## Samee (Mar 1, 2010)

SaveMeCM said:


> I also wanted to post this for those in this thread claiming the 9/11 attackers were not true Muslims, or that Islam does not condone such acts. You folks haven't been reading your Qurans, have ya?
> 
> 
> # For disbelievers is a painful doom. 2:104
> ...


That is *NOT* what is in the Quran. It's obviously been mistranslated purposefully for guys like you to use as ammo. I don't appreciate you spreading lies.


----------



## Hotdiggity11 (Aug 24, 2006)

SaveMeCM said:


> I also wanted to post this for those in this thread claiming the 9/11 attackers were not true Muslims, or that Islam does not condone such acts. You folks haven't been reading your Qurans, have ya?
> 
> 
> # For disbelievers is a painful doom. 2:104
> ...




So what? You find the same shit in the Old Testament.


----------



## Panzer (May 31, 2007)

Thought this belonged here since it pertains to the same story.

*BUTTHURT CONSERVATIVES FIND NEW OBAMA AMMO*



> WASHINGTON – President Barack Obama says Muslims have the right to build a mosque near ground zero in New York, but he's not saying whether he thinks it's a good idea to do so.
> 
> Obama's comment Saturday during a trip to Florida expanded on a statement he made at a White House dinner on Friday. At that event, he said Muslims have the same right to freedom of religion as everyone else in America.
> 
> ...


----------



## Arya Dark (Sep 8, 2006)

*That's what I like about either party being President. If there's a Democratic president all of the Conservatives try Jedi mind tricks... same with the Liberals when a Republican is president. 


Carnies and rubes*


----------



## stevefox1200 (Jul 7, 2009)

Can't everyone just throw away their politics and be friends?

It can't be that hard


----------



## MrMister (Mar 11, 2005)

stevefox1200 said:


> Can't everyone just throw away their politics and be friends?
> 
> It can't be that hard


Did you know you're a communist?

Also would it be a complete waste of time for me to read that article Panther posted?


----------



## Arya Dark (Sep 8, 2006)

*You've heard it all before, Mr.Mister. Just Jedi mind tricks.*


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## Panzer (May 31, 2007)

LadyCroft said:


> *That's what I like about either party being President. If there's a Democratic president all of the Conservatives try Jedi mind tricks... same with the Liberals when a Republican is president.
> 
> 
> Carnies and rubes*


I'm the first to speak out against Conservative hypocrisy but I wouldn't go as far to say that they are all guilty. I know a few well minded and educated Conservatives. Although they do fail in comparison to the stupid ones. But hey, what do you expect, it's Louisiana. A state, which in recent years, has seen a rise of Conservatism greater than that of Texas.

And as a Liberal, I can comfortably say we have our loons too. But definitely not all of us and as the country moves more to the right every day, Conservative loons are becoming much more outspoken. Which, in a way, kind of makes a lot of Liberals grow up a bit since we have to play the face now.

And now, a funny pictcha! All hail the Prophet Beck!


----------



## MrMister (Mar 11, 2005)

LadyCroft said:


> *You've heard it all before, Mr.Mister. Just Jedi mind tricks.*


Wait, Republicans are Jedi? Fuck. Didn't see that one coming. I'm a rube then I suppose.


----------



## Arya Dark (Sep 8, 2006)

*Jedi mind tricks only work on the weak minded... I have no problem with that but you almost have to have no conscious thought at all to fall for Glen Beck's cry-baby bullshit.


Brek, :lmao nah, they like using that tactic though... as do all politicians.  *


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## MrMister (Mar 11, 2005)

Are you sure they aren't Jedi? And these aren't the droids we're looking for.

On a related note to politicians and 9/11, Anthony Weiner (come on, a little maturity please) fucking owned the House floor the other day. 

Awesome. The gentleman is correct in sitting!


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## Arya Dark (Sep 8, 2006)

*That's a great clip. But he should tell his own party the same thing.  

Every side want's their own little things put in every bill. The funny thing is the guy he is telling to sit down actually voted the way Weiner voted. *


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## MrMister (Mar 11, 2005)

He does tell his party the same thing. He was pretty pissed at the health care thing for awhile, but eventually he did join the party line.

And nothing is funnier than "the gentleman is correct in sitting". He was more pissed at the hypocrisy, not at the guy interrupting him.


----------



## Arya Dark (Sep 8, 2006)

MrMister said:


> He does tell his party the same thing. He was pretty pissed at the health care thing for awhile, but eventually he did join the party line.
> 
> And nothing is funnier than "the gentleman is correct in sitting". He was more pissed at the hypocrisy, not at the guy interrupting him.


*It may very well be the BEST.LINE.EVER. 

 but how can he be pissed at hypocrisy when he himself has to fall in line with is own party? Some might call it grandstanding. 

I enjoy watching the guy though. It's about as entertaining as something like that can be without fisticuffs. *


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## Panzer (May 31, 2007)

I'm with Anthony on the healthcare bill. And not for loony Republican reasons. It was a sham. It does not nationalize healthcare like it should. It's a watered down version of what it should have been. But hey, at least the bill is better than the current system.


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## MrMister (Mar 11, 2005)

LadyCroft said:


> *It may very well be the BEST.LINE.EVER.
> 
> but how can he be pissed at hypocrisy when he himself has to fall in line with is own party? Some might call it grandstanding.
> 
> I enjoy watching the guy though. It's about as entertaining as something like that can be without fisticuffs.*


Some can call it what they will. I'll call it awesome.

And yeah one has to compromise one's beliefs in that fucked world of the Legislative Branch. Everyone is guilty. This instance was complete bullshit though from what I've read about it. Republicans exploit 9/11 all the time for their ends when it helps them out, yet they won't raise the taxes to help out the people that did heroic things that day and now are now paying the price for those actions.


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## Deshad C. (Jun 25, 2008)

This is America (or "Amurica" as I like to pronounce it when im feeling all patriotic).

They have a right to have their Mosque wherever they want imo...


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## Arya Dark (Sep 8, 2006)

MrMister said:


> Some can call it what they will. I'll call it awesome.
> 
> And yeah one has to compromise one's beliefs in that fucked world of the Legislative Branch. Everyone is guilty. * This instance was complete bullshit though from what I've read about it.* Republicans exploit 9/11 all the time for their ends when it helps them out, yet they won't raise the taxes to help out the people that did heroic things that day and now are now paying the price for those actions.


*I absolutely agree. 

*


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## Hotdiggity11 (Aug 24, 2006)

Anthony Weiner is the shit.


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## MrMister (Mar 11, 2005)

High Five Hotdiggity. Couldn't agree more.


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## SaveMeCM (Feb 7, 2010)

Samee said:


> That is *NOT* what is in the Quran. It's obviously been mistranslated purposefully for guys like you to use as ammo. I don't appreciate you spreading lies.


I didn't post the complete verses because that would have been way too much for anyone to bother reading. Which of the shortened verses that I posted do you have issue with? Please correct me, and I'll check the two Qurans I've got with me and admit error if you're correct.


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## Samee (Mar 1, 2010)

SaveMeCM said:


> I didn't post the complete verses because that would have been way too much for anyone to bother reading. Which of the shortened verses that I posted do you have issue with? Please correct me, and I'll check the two Qurans I've got with me and admit error if you're correct.


Almost all of them are wrong. I'm Muslim, I know the Quran. Most of that crap is not in there. Oh you have two Qurans with you eh? They wouldn't happen to be in English would they? Which would make them open to mistranslation wouldn't they? Listen, if the stuff you quoted was actually in the Quran there would be a *HUGE* deal made out of it.


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## Tomkin (Apr 2, 2008)

Religion causes most of the bad things that happen in this world!


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## Huganomics (Mar 12, 2010)

tomkim4 said:


> Religion causes most of the bad things that happen in this world!


:agree: I was talking to my Dad the other day when he said pretty much the exact same thing, or at least how Religion causes alot of things, not necessarily the majority of them. God, thinking about how Religion, Politics, and the Economy are right now just depresses me.


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## BORT (Oct 5, 2009)

The Muslims have the right to build whatever they want, wherever they want regardless of what others think. Period. For Americans to bitch about it and try to deny them their right is being completely unconstitutional and Un-American. 



tomkim4 said:


> Religion causes most of the bad things that happen in this world!


are u kidding me? I hate when people spout this garbage because it such far from the truth. Your telling me all the killings, the robberys, the rapes, etc. that happen everyday are most likely caused by religion? Get freakin real.


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## Deshad C. (Jun 25, 2008)

tomkim4 said:


> Religion causes most of the bad things that happen in this world!


Religion is also responsible for some of the greatest leaps and bounds for civilization as a whole.

People do stupid, horrible things for a plethora of reasons. If it wasn't religion it would be something else. People will always find something to fight over...


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## SaveMeCM (Feb 7, 2010)

Samee said:


> Almost all of them are wrong. I'm Muslim, I know the Quran. Most of that crap is not in there. Oh you have two Qurans with you eh? They wouldn't happen to be in English would they? Which would make them open to mistranslation wouldn't they? Listen, if the stuff you quoted was actually in the Quran there would be a *HUGE* deal made out of it.


So, because I don't speak Arabic it's impossible for me to know a thing about Islam? Or is it because I'm a *****?

Like I said before, please correct my translations if you see error in them. I would appreciate the education if I am indeed wrong.


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## BORT (Oct 5, 2009)

Deshad C. said:


> Religion is also responsible for some of the greatest leaps and bounds for civilization as a whole.
> 
> People do stupid, horrible things for a plethora of reasons. If it wasn't religion it would be something else. People will always find something to fight over...


Exactly. Whether it be food, land, race, resources, whatever, or just cause someone just flat out wants to hurt you for the hell of it.


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## SCSA101 (Dec 29, 2007)

It's not religion that corrupts the world. It's the people.

If you actually study religions you'd realise there's fundamentally a peaceful belief (i.e. to not steal, ...., abuse, murder, etc.). I'm not even just talking about Islam, but religions in general. Anyone who reads religious books with an open mind understands that. Critics spend their entire life trying to find a verse that looks bad and exploit it without having read verses before it/after it or even understand the context its in. 

So we shouldn't even be blaming religion here. But the people. Because its the people that are in the wrong and have taken their own religion out of context, i.e. extremists. There's good and bad people in the world, just like their good and bad people in religion.


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## Samee (Mar 1, 2010)

SaveMeCM said:


> So, because I don't speak Arabic it's impossible for me to know a thing about Islam? Or is it because I'm a *****?
> 
> Like I said before, please correct my translations if you see error in them. I would appreciate the education if I am indeed wrong.


Mate I'm not trying to be rude or anything but it's just too much to correct. Trust me, if any of the stuff you posted was actually real it would give anti-Islam people A LOT of ammo. Also, if you actually believe that's true then that must mean you believe I believe all that then ey? I mean, look at how many Muslims there are in the world. We're almost a third of the world's population. You think that many of us follow the crap in your post? You think that many of us are actually that stupid? I think not.


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## Mr. Every Night (Jan 3, 2010)

Fuck the people who did this on 911. Fuck Islam


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## Samee (Mar 1, 2010)

Mr. Every Night said:


> Fuck the people who did this on 911. Fuck Islam


What the fuck does Islam have to do with it?


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## Arya Dark (Sep 8, 2006)

Samee said:


> Mate I'm not trying to be rude or anything but it's just too much to correct. Trust me, if any of the stuff you posted was actually real it would give anti-Islam people A LOT of ammo. Also, if you actually believe that's true then that must mean you believe I believe all that then ey? I mean, look at how many Muslims there are in the world. We're almost a third of the world's population. You think that many of us follow the crap in your post? You think that many of us are actually that stupid? I think not.


*Why not just point out what's wrong? If you want to accuse him of stating things that are false then at least point out what's false. How hard could that be?*


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## Samee (Mar 1, 2010)

LadyCroft said:


> *Why not just point out what's wrong? If you want to accuse him of stating things that are false then at least point out what's false. How hard could that be?*


I'm sorry but it's just too much to respond to. So much of it is wrong. I know if I try to correct it I'll still be challenged and I probably won't change his opinion. I know it makes me look bad and lazy but I'm just sick and tired of having to try and defend things.


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## FITZ (May 8, 2007)

Just post a few corrections and I would believe that must of them are BS.


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## Panzer (May 31, 2007)

Deshad C. said:


> Religion is also responsible for some of the greatest leaps and bounds for civilization as a whole.
> 
> People do stupid, horrible things for a plethora of reasons. If it wasn't religion it would be something else. People will always find something to fight over...


Dark Ages says hello. And don't play the Rome card either. Advancement could have been made without Rome. The Catholic Church got too much power and the law of the land was "convert or die" and "if it contradicts our religion in any way, it will be repressed". 

But I'd say we could get cut down the world's problem's down by about half if religion didn't exist anymore. You won't believe how much religion influences world politics. Probably because anyone that says otherwise is religious themselves and doesn't want what they believe to look bad.


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## Arya Dark (Sep 8, 2006)

Panther said:


> Dark Ages says hello. And don't play the Rome card either. Advancement could have been made without Rome. The Catholic Church got too much power and the law of the land was "convert or die" and "if it contradicts our religion in any way, it will be repressed".
> 
> But I'd say we could get cut down the world's problem's down by about half if religion didn't exist anymore. You won't believe how much religion influences world politics. Probably because anyone that says otherwise is religious themselves and* doesn't want what they believe to look bad.*


*I don't think it's necessarily that. I think it has more to do with them being absolutely oblivious to what happens around them and for what reasons. I think you're giving them far too much credit.*


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## SaveMeCM (Feb 7, 2010)

> Mate I'm not trying to be rude or anything but it's just too much to correct. Trust me, if any of the stuff you posted was actually real it would give anti-Islam people A LOT of ammo. Also, if you actually believe that's true then that must mean you believe I believe all that then ey? I mean, look at how many Muslims there are in the world. We're almost a third of the world's population. You think that many of us follow the crap in your post? You think that many of us are actually that stupid? I think not.


I don't think you believe all of those things, because I take it at face value when you say you don't. Many Muslims don't actually follow their religion for whatever reason. Maybe they do not know what their religion requires of them, or maybe they just don't care. I have great compassion for all young religious people. You and I were both innocent victims of our culture and upbringing. Most are not able to escape from the indoctrination though, like I was able to escape from Christianity. Most Muslims, including my Muslim friends, are good people. That doesn't make Islam (not Muslims) itself any less vile. If I thought all religious people were evil and bad, that would mean I thought I used to be an evil person. I don't think I was just because I was Christian, and I don't think the average Muslim is.




> Just post a few corrections and I would believe that must of them are BS.


That sounds fair enough. Samee, select any five of the verses below and give me your translation. Shouldn't take you more than ten minutes. The Quran I'm reading from now was published by Goodword Books, and was translated by Abdullah Yusuf Ali.

(Al-Baqarah)2:216 - Fighting is prescribed for you, and you dislike it. But it is possible that you dislike a thing which is good for you, and that you love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knows, and you know not.

(An-Nisa)4:74 - Let those fight in the cause of Allah who sell the life of this world for the Hereafter. To him who fights in the cause of Allah – whether he is slain or gets victory – soon shall We give him a reward of great (value).

(An-Nisa)4:76 - Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah, and those who reject Faith fight in the cause of Evil: so fight you against the friends of Satan: feeble indeed is the cunning of Satan.

(An-Nisa)4:89 - They but wish that you should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): but take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (from what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever you find them; and (in any case) take no friends of helpers from their ranks;

(At-Tawbah)9:38-39 - O you who believe! What is the matter with you, that, when you are asked to go forth in the Cause of Allah, you cling heavily to the earth? Do you prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? But little is the comfort of this life, as compared with the Hereafter. Unless you go forth, he will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place; but Him you would not harm in the least. For Allah has power over all things.

(At-Tawbah)9:52 - Say: “Can you expect for us (any fate) other than one of two glorious things – (Martyrdom or victory)? But we can expect for you either that Allah will send his punishment from Himself, or by our hands. So wait (expectant); we too will wait with you.”

(At-Tawbah)9:111 - Allah has purchased of the Believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the Garden (of Paradise): they fight in His Cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, though the Law, the Gospel, and the Quran: and who is more faithful to his Covenant than Allah? Then rejoice in the bargain which you have concluded: that is the achievement supreme.

(At-Tawbah)9:123 - O you who believe! Fight the Unbelievers who are around you, and let them find firmness in you: and know that Allah is with those who fear Him.


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## SaveMeCM (Feb 7, 2010)

I know this picture is making fun of my position, but it's so funny and awesome that I had to post it.


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## stevefox1200 (Jul 7, 2009)

^^^^^^

I could support that mosque


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## BORT (Oct 5, 2009)

Panther said:


> You won't believe how much religion influences world politics.


Id say greed and natural resources influence it alot more. Of course We dont hear about that as much now do We?


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## Panzer (May 31, 2007)

its177 said:


> Id say greed and natural resources influence it alot more. Of course We dont hear about that as much now do We?


Yeah we do. But the Christian position that I hear a lot is that god put everything on this planet for human use. That normally means a lack of interest in environmental protection. 

Case in point. Skip to 1:17 if you want to get to it.






And not to defend causes of world troubles but natural resources, land and political ideology are real things. Gods are not. So if your gonna fight for something, at least make sure it's rooted in reality.


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## BORT (Oct 5, 2009)

Panther said:


> Yeah we do. But the Christian position that I hear a lot is that god put everything on this planet for human use. That normally means a lack of interest in environmental protection.
> 
> Case in point. Skip to 1:17 if you want to get to it.
> 
> ...


My claim was that religion has _less_ influence on world politics than just flat out greed and resources do. NOT that Religion doesnt influence it which is of course ridiculous.


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## Art Vandaley (Jan 9, 2006)

Panther said:


> Dark Ages says hello. And don't play the Rome card either. Advancement could have been made without Rome. The Catholic Church got too much power and the law of the land was "convert or die" and "if it contradicts our religion in any way, it will be repressed".
> 
> But I'd say we could get cut down the world's problem's down by about half if religion didn't exist anymore. You won't believe how much religion influences world politics. Probably because anyone that says otherwise is religious themselves and doesn't want what they believe to look bad.


In all fairness Rome was already well on the road to being fucked by the time Constantine converted to christianity. The real bad stuff the Church did to cause the dark ages was to discourage commerce which put back rebuilding Europes economy after the fall of Rome by centuries and also the insistance that all intellectual works be guided by the Bible as the source of ultimate truth, meaning the people who in other periods of time would have been advancing our scientific knowledge were instead argueing about how many angels could dance on a pin head.

And thats were religion really causes problems, they are made up and the things they say aren't true, yet people will believe those things no matter how silly without question if a religion is strong enough.


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## Deshad C. (Jun 25, 2008)

Panther said:


> Dark Ages says hello. And don't play the Rome card either. Advancement could have been made without Rome. The Catholic Church got too much power and the law of the land was "convert or die" and "if it contradicts our religion in any way, it will be repressed".
> 
> But I'd say we could get cut down the world's problem's down by about half if religion didn't exist anymore. You won't believe how much religion influences world politics. Probably because anyone that says otherwise is religious themselves and doesn't want what they believe to look bad.


I didn't say Religion was the ONLY reason for advancement, nor am I saying that the horrible things that people do in the name of religion is right, but you have to admit that religion has been one of the major things that has pushed the development of the world.

And yes, I have to play the Rome card...since it happened. You can try and argue that the advancements that occurred during that time would've occurred anyway with religious presence at the time....but theres no way to prove that so we can only go by what happened.

And to be honest, we could cut down more than half of the worlds problems if people actually followed what they believed and didn't pick and choose. Being a Christian myself, I know what I'm morally for and against but I also know that the teachings of Jesus also say to not judge and treat others how you wish to be treated (im paraphrasing but that is what he taught). 

Love for all,
Respect for all,
and Peace for all.

Those things are the main foundations for almost all the religions I can think of. If people followed those basic things, religious or not, then there wouldn't be much of a problem. But like I said, people will always find something to fight over...


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## reDREDD (Oct 12, 2008)

Ramadan Mubarak ma Brothas. From WF's resident Ayrab Moslim Terrorist. Me.


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## Toots Dalton (Feb 8, 2010)

It's clear to see why people would be pissed off about it, I think it'd just be better if they built it further away, it's not like they need to build there is it? Just to keep the peace, build one further away, the anti-mosque people will be happy & the mosque will still get built, everybody wins!
Having said that most Western Muslims are fine. 99% of them don't want to blow you up AT ALL. And let's remember we're fighting a war on terror, not Islam.


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## Panzer (May 31, 2007)

Deshad C. said:


> I didn't say Religion was the ONLY reason for advancement, nor am I saying that the horrible things that people do in the name of religion is right, but you have to admit that religion has been one of the major things that has pushed the development of the world.
> 
> And yes, I have to play the Rome card...since it happened. You can try and argue that the advancements that occurred during that time would've occurred anyway with religious presence at the time....but theres no way to prove that so we can only go by what happened.
> 
> ...


The only thing religion did was control fear about life and death thousands of years ago. It kept order but we don't need it anymore.

And the thing is, people are following what they believe. Muslims more than Christians. I'm not advocating terrorism but those extremists are a hell of a lot more devoted than their Moderate counterparts and they actually follow the rules of their religion more closely. Christians sure as hell don't. Jesus taught about obedience and conversion. Peace and love only came with the territory and only then, it was quite selective. I don't see people upholding OT law like Jesus said we should. 

And I can tell you one thing better than religion. Humanism.


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## Deshad C. (Jun 25, 2008)

Panther said:


> The only thing religion did was control fear about life and death thousands of years ago. It kept order but we don't need it anymore.
> 
> And the thing is, people are following what they believe. Muslims more than Christians. I'm not advocating terrorism but those extremists are a hell of a lot more devoted than their Moderate counterparts and they actually follow the rules of their religion more closely. Christians sure as hell don't. Jesus taught about obedience and conversion. Peace and love only came with the territory and only then, it was quite selective. I don't see people upholding OT law like Jesus said we should.
> 
> And I can tell you one thing better than religion. Humanism.


Well, I'm from the cloth that God gave us brains for a reason and that you have to be naive to believe that kings and queens had control of the bible and not one of them changed nuthin...but thats just me.

I don't think Religion is bad, i think people misconstrue things about religion to fit their goals and wants.


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## reDREDD (Oct 12, 2008)

In Lebanon, a TV show made in Iran about Jesus, shown on a Muslim channel, was canceled because of public outrage.

Oh the Irony, its so delicious.


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## Panzer (May 31, 2007)

*UPDATE!*

*OBAMA ACCUSED BY CONSERVATIVES(what a shock)OF BEING DISCONNECTED FROM MAINSTREAM AMERICA*



> WASHINGTON (AFP) – Republicans pounced on US President Barack Obama's comments supporting the right to build a mosque near Ground Zero Sunday, painting him as out of touch less than three months before key mid-term elections.
> 
> Democrats and Republicans squared off on Sunday talk shows to hammer home their positions on the Islamic center which includes a mosque, and argue whether it was appropriate for Obama to wade into the fray.
> 
> ...


If mainstream America is a bunch of bigots who favor one religion over another, then I'm glad Obama is disconnected from it. Then again, "mainstream America", "what our children need", "the American people want" and the all time classic, "our Founding Fathers wanted" are lines you'll hear from politicians(mainly conservatives) all the frickin time and frankly, they mean nothing.


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## reDREDD (Oct 12, 2008)

'Our founding fathers wanted'. Heh. Why are those guys put on a pedestal. I mean sure, they 'created America', but in the end of the day, werent they very flawed, and very human?


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## MrMister (Mar 11, 2005)

redeadening said:


> 'Our founding fathers wanted'. Heh. Why are those guys put on a pedestal. I mean sure, they 'created America', but in the end of the day, werent they very flawed, and very human?


And had very different opinions and philosophies. Their deification is absurd.


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## Arya Dark (Sep 8, 2006)

*Our founding fathers were pretty much badass. You're walking on the fightin' side of me to put them down. 

Deification though, is indeed pretty absurd.*


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## MrMister (Mar 11, 2005)

There's no question they had their shit together more than anyone else of that time. Look what they made.


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## McQueen (Jul 17, 2006)

Yeah, if the National Treasure movies taught us anything its how badass the Founding Fathers were.


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## MrMister (Mar 11, 2005)

McQueen said:


> Yeah, if the National Treasure movies taught us anything its how badass the Founding Fathers were.


Thank you Nick Cage.


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## McQueen (Jul 17, 2006)

Actually the whole time I watched that movie I was thinking thank you Diane Kruger for letting me see your bare ass in Troy but thats discussion for another topic.


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## Panzer (May 31, 2007)

LadyCroft said:


> *Our founding fathers were pretty much badass. You're walking on the fightin' side of me to put them down.
> 
> Deification though, is indeed pretty absurd.*


Sorry Croft but a lot of people act like they knew the Founding Fathers personally and it's used for all the wrong reasons.

I have nothing against the Founding Fathers. In fact, Thomas Paine and Thomas Jefferson are my favorites. They're called "The Thomas Tyrants" and are 8 time World Tag Champs. 

And Redeadening is right. We do put them on a pedestal. Politics were a lot different back then then they are now. We need to stop using them as the "set bar" and start raising the bar higher ourselves. This is not to discredit anything that they had accomplished in starting this country. They do deserve our up most respect because of what they gave us. No disrespect was intended from his post.


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## Arya Dark (Sep 8, 2006)

*Nah, Panther I hear ya. I wasn't referring to you with my comment. It was just meant in general. 

Glenn Beck uses that "founding fathers" stuff all the time and it pisses me off. It actually makes me hate the guy... well that stacked onto his cry-baby personality. He's just such a fucking phony. 

I'd imagine our founding fathers would slapped the hell out of him and tell him to stop crying like a weak little bitch. 

....but that's just me. *


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## McQueen (Jul 17, 2006)

Glenn Beck should be publically executed. Just sayin'


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## Y2J™ (Nov 13, 2009)

> This is just a retarded idea all around and I honestly can't believe the City of New York might let this happen.
> 
> It's just in poor taste and completely inconsiderate towards all the families that lost loved ones on that site on 9/11.
> 
> It's even worse considering they are open about the fact the location of this mosque does have something to do with the terrorist attacks. This just makes me sick.


Islam has nothing to do with the attacks, it may have given them incentive seeing as they made themselves believe that they'd be in heaven with 100 virgins, however it never says in the Quran to crash a plane into a building full of civilians to get into heaven. It isn't a problem with Islam, it's a problem with religion in general. Everyone that follows any religion picks and chooses what to follow and what not to follow, and when they do something bad, they just use the reasoning that "God would have wanted me to do it", or "God will forgive me". 

I don't see how building a mosque near at ground zero is in poor taste. It's a building just like any other, it's not like they plan terrorist attacks there or secretly laugh about 9/11 amongst themselves. Honestly this is just people being intolerant towards Muslims due to the the media portraying that all Muslims = terrorists.

incase anyone is wondering, I'm an Atheist, and American.


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## TripleG (Dec 8, 2004)

I don't know. I think this is a really bad idea, and it can easily be interpreted as throwing salt in the wound. 

The victims on 9/11 were killed in the name of this religion. Whether or not those hijackers represent the whole of the religion is irrelevant. That's what happened. They did it because they felt like their faith commanded it. To me, putting a mosque on ground zero can EASILY be interpreted as almost being a memorial to them. 

I'm trying to see this from the POV of someone who lost loved ones on that day. If you've spent the last 9 years knowing that over zealous extremists of this faith took people you cared about away from you in the name of that religion, would you want that religion represented on the very place where the disaster occurred? I wouldn't, and if anything, if I lost any family in 9/11, I'd be insulted. 

Let's go small scale here. I'm a Roman Catholic. Now lets say a group of over zealous Catholics bombed an abortion clinic and killed everyone inside. Would I want a Catholic Church to be erected on the spot that the Abortion clinic was bombed on? Absolutely not! Because it was misguided morons of my faith that killed people in cold blood, and putting a church on that spot could be viewed as a sign of victory for the faith, especially by the families of the victims. That might not be the intention, but its just opening up a can of worms that doesn't need to be opened and making a bad situation needlessly worse. 

Or how about an American Flag draped over Hiroshima? Would anyone want that? I wouldn't want that there unless it was attached to a gigantic slab with a massive apology carved by hand put on it. 

I don't know why this would even be considered. Is it to be Politically Correct? Probably, but I don't see the point in doing this. Why is it important to have that Mosque there anyway, or any Church for that matter?


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## Y2J™ (Nov 13, 2009)

> They did it because they felt like their faith commanded it.


They did it because of the USA support of Israel. That was the main reason.



> If you've spent the last 9 years knowing that over zealous extremists of this faith took people you cared about away from you in the name of that religion, would you want that religion represented on the very place where the disaster occurred? I wouldn't, and if anything, if I lost any family in 9/11, I'd be insulted.


It didn't have as much to do with religion as you think. But still, I don't get this point. It's not like they're forcing them to bow down before the glory of Allah, or they're planning some sort of attack. The families can choose whether to acknowledge it or ignore it, no ones forcing them to look at it.



> Let's go small scale here. I'm a Roman Catholic. Now lets say a group of over zealous Catholics bombed an abortion clinic and killed everyone inside. Would I want a Catholic Church to be erected on the spot that the Abortion clinic was bombed on? Absolutely not! Because it was misguided morons of my faith that killed people in cold blood, and putting a church on that spot could be viewed as a sign of victory for the faith, especially by the families of the victims. That might not be the intention, but its just opening up a can of worms that doesn't need to be opened and making a bad situation needlessly worse.


I don't think that analogy compares to what the 9/11 terrorists did. The Catholics would bomb the abortion clinic because it goes against their religion. The 9/11 terrorists did what they did because of America's occupation in the middle east and support of Israel.


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## seancarleton77 (Jul 4, 2006)

Can we get a thread title change, this place will be open to all faiths, it's actually about uniting. One of my best friends is Muslim and very open minded and he would be ashamed in a who's the dunce using the word play and spin sort of way when it comes to some of these comments and the thread title alone.


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## bod-ftw (Jul 23, 2010)

So much for land of the free.


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## MrMister (Mar 11, 2005)

bod-ftw said:


> So much for land of the free.


"Land of the free" are just words in a song.

I just hope you're not saying "so much for the land of the free" like someone would say "there goes the neighborhood".


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## seancarleton77 (Jul 4, 2006)

Can someone change the thread title? We should just call it "Paranoid nut jobs think a building will end White America."


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## MrMister (Mar 11, 2005)

I think we need to pluralize nut job. Otherwise that's a great and appropriate title.


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## SaveMeCM (Feb 7, 2010)

Sam Harris; What Obama Got Wrong about the Mosque

http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2010-08-13/ground-zero-mosque/

After weeks of dodging the issue, at a White House Ramadan dinner Friday night, President Obama came out in support of Park51, the planned Muslim community center and mosque two blocks away from the World Trade Center site.The President says he wasn't endorsing the ground zero mosque—only defending the right to build it. Sam Harris on his failure to acknowledge that Islam is different than other faiths.

Should a 15-story mosque and Islamic cultural center be built two blocks from the site of the worst jihadist atrocity in living memory? Put this way, the question nearly answers itself. This is not to say, however, that I think we should prevent our fellow citizens from building “the ground zero mosque.” There is probably no legal basis to do so in any case—nor should there be. But the margin between what is legal and what is desirable, or even decent, leaves room for many projects that well-intentioned people might still find offensive. If you can raise the requisite $100 million, you might also build a shrine to Satan on this spot, complete with the names of all the non-believing victims of 9/11 destined to suffer for eternity in Hell. You could also build an Institute of “9/11 Truth,” catering to the credulity, masochism, and paranoia of the 16 percent of Americans who imagine that the World Trade Center was intentionally demolished by agents of the U.S. government. Incidentally, any shrine to conspiracy thinking should probably also contain a mosque, along with a list of the 4,000 Jews who suspiciously declined to practice their usury in the Twin Towers on the day of the attack.

The New York Times has declared that the proposed mosque will be nothing less than “a monument to tolerance.” It goes without saying that tolerance is a value to which we should all be deeply committed. Nor can we ignore the fact that many who oppose the construction of this mosque embody all that is terrifyingly askew in conservative America—“birthers,” those sincerely awaiting the Rapture, opportunistic Republican politicians, and utter lunatics who yearn to see Sarah Palin become the next president of the United States (note that Palin herself probably falls into several of these categories). These people are wrong about almost everything under the sun. The problem, however, is that they are not quite wrong about Islam.

In his speech supporting the mosque, Mayor Michael Bloomberg said: “We would betray our values—and play into our enemies' hands—if we were to treat Muslims differently than anyone else.” This statement has the virtue of being almost true. But it is also true that honest, freedom-loving Muslims should be the first to view their fellow Muslims somewhat differently. At this point in human history, Islam simply is different from other faiths. The challenge we all face, Muslim and non-Muslim alike, is to find the most benign and practical ways of mitigating these differences and of changing this religion for the better.

It is both ironic and instructive that at the very moment that the path was finally smoothed for the construction of the ground zero mosque, the Hamburg mosque that nurtured the 9/11 hijackers was shut down by the German government. No doubt there were German Muslims who felt their religious liberty was shamefully abridged. However, after a decade of treating this mosque as a monument to tolerance, the Germans were forced to admit that it was actually an incorrigible incubator of jihadism and anti-Western values. And so, the question must be asked: Which of these sister mosques represents the true face of Islam?

In his speech, Mayor Bloomberg said, “It is my hope that the mosque will help to bring our city even closer together and help repudiate the false and repugnant idea that the attacks of 9/11 were in any way consistent with Islam.” He has since said that anyone opposed to this project “ought to be ashamed of themselves.” This, incidentally, is the same Mayor Bloomberg who could not bring himself to publicly condemn the practice of “oral suction” used by Orthodox mohels during the ritual of circumcision, despite the fact that it spreads herpes to infant boys, causing occasional brain damage and even death. Such failures of secular nerve can be given a general description: Tolerance of religious stupidity has a way of making liars and cowards of people who should have nothing to fear from the fruits of honest reasoning.

And honest reasoning declares that there is much that is objectionable—and, frankly, terrifying—about the religion of Islam and about the state of discourse among Muslims living in the West, and it is decidedly inconvenient that discussing these facts publicly is considered a sign of “intolerance” by well-intentioned liberals, in part because such criticism resonates with the actual bigotry of not-so-well-intentioned conservatives. I can see no remedy for this, however, apart from simply ramming the crucial points home, again and again.

The first thing that all honest students of Islam must admit is that it is not absolutely clear where members of al Qaeda, the Taliban, al-Shabab, Lashkar-e-Taiba, Hamas, and other Muslim terrorist groups have misconstrued their religious obligations. If they are “extremists” who have deformed an ancient faith into a death cult, they haven’t deformed it by much. When one reads the Koran and the hadith, and consults the opinions of Muslim jurists over the centuries, one discovers that killing apostates, treating women like livestock, and waging jihad—not merely as an inner, spiritual struggle but as holy war against infidels—are practices that are central to the faith. Granted, one path out of this madness might be for mainstream Muslims to simply pretend that this isn’t so—and by this pretense persuade the next generation that the “true” Islam is peaceful, tolerant of difference, egalitarian, and fully compatible with a global civil society. But the holy books remain forever to be consulted, and no one will dare to edit them. Consequently, the most barbarous and divisive passages in these texts will remain forever open to being given their most plausible interpretations.

Thus, when Allah commands his followers to slay infidels wherever they find them, until Islam reigns supreme (2:191-193; 4:76; 8:39; 9:123; 47:4; 66:9)—only to emphasize that such violent conquest is obligatory, as unpleasant as that might seem (2:216), and that death in jihad is actually the best thing that can happen to a person, given the rewards that martyrs receive in Paradise (3:140-171; 4:74; 47:5-6)—He means just that. And, being the creator of the universe, his words were meant to guide Muslims for all time. Yes, it is true that the Old Testament contains even greater barbarism—but there are obvious historical and theological reasons why it inspires far less Jewish and Christian violence today. Anyone who elides these distinctions, or who acknowledges the problem of jihad and Muslim terrorism only to swiftly mention the Crusades, Israel’s treatment of the Palestinians, the Tamil Tigers, and the bombing of the federal building in Oklahoma, is simply not thinking honestly about the problem of Islam.

What one doesn’t generally hear from Western Muslims is any frank acknowledgment of these unpleasant truths. In response to serious concerns raised over Islamic doctrines related to jihad, martyrdom, apostasy, and blasphemy—along with their incontrovertible link to terrorism, threats of violence, cartoon “controversies,” and the like—one generally meets with petulance, feigned confusion, half-truths, and non sequiturs. Apologists for Islam have even sought to defend their faith from criticism by inventing a psychological disorder known as “Islamophobia.” My friend Ayaan Hirsi Ali is said to be suffering from it. Though she was circumcised as a girl by religious barbarians (as 98 percent of Somali girls still are) has been in constant flight from theocrats ever since, and must retain a bodyguard everywhere she goes, even her criticism of Islam is viewed as a form of “bigotry” and “racism” by many “moderate” Muslims. And yet, moderate Muslims should be the first to observe how obscene Muslim bullying is—and they should be the first to defend the right of public intellectuals, cartoonists, and novelists to criticize the faith.

There is no such thing as Islamophobia. Bigotry and racism exist, of course—and they are evils that all well-intentioned people must oppose. And prejudice against Muslims or Arabs, purely because of the accident of their birth, is despicable. But like all religions, Islam is a system of ideas and practices. And it is not a form of bigotry or racism to observe that the specific tenets of the faith pose a special threat to civil society. Nor is it a sign of intolerance to notice when people are simply not being honest about what they and their co-religionists believe.

The claim that the events of September 11, 2001, had “nothing to do with Islam” is an abject and destabilizing lie. This murder of 3,000 innocents was viewed as a victory for the One True Faith by millions of Muslims throughout the world (even, idiotically, by those who think it was perpetrated by the Mossad). And the erection of a mosque upon the ashes of this atrocity will also be viewed by many millions of Muslims as a victory—and as a sign that the liberal values of the West are synonymous with decadence and cowardice. This may not be reason enough for the supporters of this mosque to reconsider their project. And perhaps they shouldn’t. Perhaps there is some form of Islam that could issue from this site that would be better, all things considered, than simply not building another mosque in the first place. But this leads me to a somewhat paradoxical conclusion: American Muslims should be absolutely free to build a mosque two blocks from ground zero; but the ones who should do it probably wouldn’t want to.


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## reDREDD (Oct 12, 2008)

You know whats funny? I'm muslim, and the first time i heard of the '100 virgins in heaven' stuff was in a family guy episode. I have honestly never ever read about something like that or even heard someone mention it in conversation.


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## SaveMeCM (Feb 7, 2010)

Well, I've talked to a Christian who thought the ten commandments came from the New Testament. A lot of religious people just accept whatever garbage their parents tell them as children and don't even bother to read the Holy Book(s) and learn about the religion themselves.


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## THQ (Apr 2, 2010)

Freedom of Religion

Thread/


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## Y2J™ (Nov 13, 2009)

redeadening said:


> You know whats funny? I'm muslim, and the first time i heard of the '100 virgins in heaven' stuff was in a family guy episode. I have honestly never ever read about something like that or even heard someone mention it in conversation.


Never read the Quran myself, but I heard of it at least 2 times from friends. And it wasn't 100 virgins, it was 72 virgins. 

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Houri :



> Margaret Nydell states that mainstream Muslims regard this belief about 72 virgins in the same way that mainstream Christians regard the belief that after death they will be issued with wings and a harp, and walk on clouds.


So I guess most Muslims don't believe it. Still doesn't change my point.


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## ItsWhatIdo (Aug 15, 2007)

Y2J™;8732733 said:


> They did it because of the USA support of Israel. That was the main reason.


Oh that's why they carried their Korans along with them.

This is such a stupid argument that is going on over this mosque. Why build anything there? Why not just keep it as a place to remember those who fell. Why does religion always have to be brought into everything. Leave religion out of it, and Obama should separate from this.

You all realize that a church destroyed on 9/11 can't get funding to be rebuilt? The government keeps pushing away talks of rebuild.


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## BruiserKC (Mar 14, 2010)

As a libertarian, I'm extremely torn the more I hear about what's going on. Part of me says that we should live and let live, and I don't care what people believe or not believe. On the other hand, to put the mosque there at Ground Zero is still a bad idea. It strikes me of being in poor taste. Of course, we've had almost 9 years to put something up in place of the WTC and we haven't done jack shit. 

I also find laughable at Mayor Bloomberg's calling people basically un-American for protesting the building of the mosque. This coming from a man who has told restaurants in his city how much salt they can put in their food. 

As for just the U.S. support of Israel, that's a cop-out answer. Radical Islam wants to introduce Sharia law throughout the world. This is going back to the days when Islam spread via the sword in the 7th and 8th centuries throughout northern Africa, Europe, and Asia.


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## FITZ (May 8, 2007)

BruiserKC said:


> As a libertarian, I'm extremely torn the more I hear about what's going on. Part of me says that we should live and let live, and I don't care what people believe or not believe. On the other hand, to put the mosque there at Ground Zero is still a bad idea. It strikes me of being in poor taste. Of course, we've had almost 9 years to put something up in place of the WTC and we haven't done jack shit.
> 
> I also find laughable at Mayor Bloomberg's calling people basically un-American for protesting the building of the mosque. This coming from a man who has told restaurants in his city how much salt they can put in their food.
> 
> As for just the U.S. support of Israel, that's a cop-out answer. Radical Islam wants to introduce Sharia law throughout the world. This is going back to the days when Islam spread via the sword in the 7th and 8th centuries throughout northern Africa, Europe, and Asia.


It's not Un-American to protest them building the mosque. It's their freedom of speech to protest the mosque being built. 

The government shouldn't do shit about it being built because that would be wrong too. 

And the people that want to build the mosque are idiots for wanting to build it there. 

It's really a complicated problem the way I look at it. It really would be best if the builders just decided that they didn't want to build it or never came up with the idea in the first place.


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## Stormbringer (May 3, 2008)

I thought they put up a monument that had everyone's name there?

Either way, to put a Muslim building were an American building stood, before it was destroyed by Muslims, is fucked up. No matter what anyone says or feels. You can leave out personal feelings, just say it out loud.

I say leave it black or make it a building that dedicates sections of the walls to the people who died as a memorial.


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## dan the marino (Oct 22, 2006)

I say let them build it because... they purchased the land, and it isn't even JUST a mosque but a whole religious site or something like that. The title is very misleading.


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## TheLoneShark (Apr 2, 2009)

DX-Superkick said:


> Either way, to put a Muslim building were an American building stood, before it was destroyed by Muslims, is fucked up. No matter what anyone says or feels. You can leave out personal feelings, just say it out loud.


An "American" building? A "Muslim" building? Are you seriously suggesting that it's not possible to be American and a Muslim? I ask only because there are approximately SEVEN MILLION American Muslims. Including Dave Chapelle, Shaquille O'Neal, Ice Cube, Muhammed Ali and Mike Tyson.

Are you seriously going to try and tell Mike Tyson he's not American, and that he can't put his damn building anywhere he pleases?


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## Stormbringer (May 3, 2008)

Look dude, building a mosque were Muslims brutally murdered people, is stupid, insensitive, distasteful, and flat out WRONG!

Period.

Blowing up a building and then sticking your flag, your political "dick" in the soil is fucked up!


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## MrMister (Mar 11, 2005)

Isn't it a few blocks from where the World Trade Center stood? The terrorists were Muslims, but they don't share the same beliefs that most Muslims hold. This is the United States of America. We're supposed to be tolerant and have religious freedom. Even though I'm not religious, I like the idea that people should have religious freedom. I also think that if you buy land, you can do whatever you want with it within the law. Even though men of the same faith of the people that want to put up this building committed terrible acts of violence and destruction, the people that want to put up this building have no association with those terrorists other being of the same broad Muslim faith. Islam didn't commit acts of violence, men did. Ideas don't and can't kill. Only people who believe in ideas can kill.


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## SaveMeCM (Feb 7, 2010)

MrMister said:


> Isn't it a few blocks from where the World Trade Center stood?


It is but a part of the trade centre hit the building, and that was the selling point in them buying the building. They probably love that this is being called the "ground zero mosque". They admit to choosing this location because of it's relation to the attacks. You don't think they wanted this attention or expected this kind of public reaction?



> Even though men of the same faith of the people that want to put up this building committed terrible acts of violence and destruction, the people that want to put up this building have no association with those terrorists other being of the same broad Muslim faith.


They chose the location because of the attacks, and even Muslims are speaking out against this because they know it's not a good idea, and just a provocation. If they wanted to help Islam's image and show they are caring, they would have relocated and they would have come off looking better. Now they come off looking really bad, trying to make sure the spotlight is on Islam on the tenth anniversary of the attacks, rather than on the people that died.


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## MrMister (Mar 11, 2005)

I'd to imagine a lot of buildings close the World Trade Center were hit when it collapsed. Those were big buildings. And of course they chose a site close, they want the attention. It's a marketing ploy, just like many religions use. I'm just one of the people that aren't offended. Again, we're the United States. We _should _be able to tolerate stuff like this. Apparently some of us can't. This isn't Pearl Harbor and this isn't an attack like what happened to the World Trade Center.


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## Panzer (May 31, 2007)

It's not at Ground Zero O' misinformed. It's 2 blocks away at an old Burlington Coats Factory building. 

AND NEWS FLASH! There's already mosques in that area. Does anyone care to bring that up? No because they don't care to know. Willful ignorance.


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## Y2J™ (Nov 13, 2009)

ItsWhatIdo said:


> Oh that's why they carried their Korans along with them.


That could be compared to a Christian praying to God before they do something life threatening. I'm sure it doesn't say in the Bible to go on a killing spree, or whatever they were doing, though.

Can someone please grab me a verse from the Quran where it says to crash a plane into the twin towers? Somehow most people seem to believe that there's a verse like that in there. And don't quote any "kill unbelievers" verses, there's a shit ton more of that in the Bible.



> As for just the U.S. support of Israel, that's a cop-out answer. Radical Islam wants to introduce Sharia law throughout the world. This is going back to the days when Islam spread via the sword in the 7th and 8th centuries throughout northern Africa, Europe, and Asia.


Cop out answer? Why do you think Robert Kennedy was assassinated? Because of his support of Israel. His killer was a Christian Arab.

Also, please tell me you're joking about the last line. If you're not, go learn about the Christian atrocities committed when they were trying to convert everyone to Christianity. They cannibalized Muslims because they saw them as lower than Animals. I'm not saying either them is better, but don't dismiss what the Christians did just because you're Christian.



> Either way, to put a Muslim building were an American building stood, before it was destroyed by Muslims, is fucked up. No matter what anyone says or feels. You can leave out personal feelings, just say it out loud.


There are plenty of Muslim Americans, along with Jewish Americans and Buddhist Americans. Don't forget that Muslim Americans also died in 9/11. Quit clumping Muslims together, PLEASE. As I said time and time again, the terrorists didn't do what they did because they were Muslim. 

I'm not sure what the people who oppose this mosque are, intolerant or uneducated.



> Look dude, building a mosque were Muslims brutally murdered people, is stupid, insensitive, distasteful, and flat out WRONG!
> 
> Period.
> 
> Blowing up a building and then sticking your flag, your political "dick" in the soil is fucked up!


You have a very warped view of reality if you think that most Muslims, none the less AMERICAN Muslims, support what happened in 9/11.


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## TheLoneShark (Apr 2, 2009)

DX-Superkick said:


> Look dude, building a mosque were Muslims brutally murdered people, is stupid, insensitive, distasteful, and flat out WRONG!
> 
> Period.
> 
> Blowing up a building and then sticking your flag, your political "dick" in the soil is fucked up!


I guess we should tear down those Catholic churches in Manchester City Centre then? After all, it's such a painful daily reminder of the IRA...


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## Deshad C. (Jun 25, 2008)

Panther said:


> It's not at Ground Zero O' misinformed. It's 2 blocks away at an old Burlington Coats Factory building.
> 
> AND NEWS FLASH! There's already mosques in that area. Does anyone care to bring that up? No because they don't care to know. Willful ignorance.


This, pretty much.


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## afkatk (May 4, 2007)

BruiserKC said:


> As for just the U.S. support of Israel, that's a cop-out answer. Radical Islam wants to introduce Sharia law throughout the world. This is going back to the days when Islam spread via the sword in the 7th and 8th centuries throughout northern Africa, Europe, and Asia.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2002/nov/24/theobserver
"The creation and continuation of Israel is one of the greatest crimes, and you are the leaders of its criminals. And of course there is no need to explain and prove the degree of American support for Israel. The creation of Israel is a crime which must be erased. Each and every person whose hands have become polluted in the contribution towards this crime must pay its*price, and pay for it heavily."


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## BruiserKC (Mar 14, 2010)

Y2J™ said:


> That could be compared to a Christian praying to God before they do something life threatening. I'm sure it doesn't say in the Bible to go on a killing spree, or whatever they were doing, though.
> 
> Can someone please grab me a verse from the Quran where it says to crash a plane into the twin towers? Somehow most people seem to believe that there's a verse like that in there. And don't quote any "kill unbelievers" verses, there's a shit ton more of that in the Bible.
> 
> ...


I'm not clumping all Muslims together...Radical Islam is a serious threat to the world. It's up to the moderate Muslims who do preach peace and want to just live side by side with everyone else to stand up and condemn what the radicals have done to their faith. And as a Christian, I don't condone the acts my faith has perpetrated throughout the years, but we have atoned for them and no longer commit those. There were people who cheered on 9/11 when the planes hit the WTC. 

Look at what radical Muslims are doing not just with the WTC...but what they tried to do in Canada, England, France, Holland...all over the world. 

As for my reference of Israel being a cop-out answer...if we stopped supporting Israel tomorrow (which by the way is a nation that was legally created by the UN and has a right to exist in spite of what the anti-Semites of the world think) the issue of radical Islam would not go away. In fact, Bin Laden declared jihad on us for U.S. troops first being on Saudi soil before the first Persian Gulf War (troops the Saudi royalty asked for in protection of a possible Iraqi invasion of Saudi Arabia). The cries are like Hitler saying that if we just gave him the Rhineland, he would ask for no more land in Europe. Look where that ended up. 

The Muslims that committed 9/11 hijacked your faith and has a sick, twisted way of showing they have beliefs. It doesn't represent all Muslims, but the rest of the world needs to stand up and condemn them.


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## Y2J™ (Nov 13, 2009)

BruiserKC said:


> I'm not clumping all Muslims together...Radical Islam is a serious threat to the world. It's up to the moderate Muslims who do preach peace and want to just live side by side with everyone else to stand up and condemn what the radicals have done to their faith. And as a Christian, I don't condone the acts my faith has perpetrated throughout the years, but we have atoned for them and no longer commit those. There were people who cheered on 9/11 when the planes hit the WTC.
> 
> Look at what radical Muslims are doing not just with the WTC...but what they tried to do in Canada, England, France, Holland...all over the world.


I don't think you get the point. They do NOT fight because of religion. They are fighting because of the invasion of Iraq, the American support of Israel, and whatever else the Western world did to Muslims that USA condoned. You have to look at the bigger picture. They may use their religion as a weapon, but it isn't the main reason they are so hateful towards Westerners. It also has nothing to do with Islam itself, but the fact that it is a religion. They, like most religious people, try to convince themselves that what they are doing will somehow get them brownie points in Heaven. They twist and manipulate the aspects of their religion, Islam is a peaceful religion for the most part.

I will give you this, though: There may be a few Muslims who fight for their religion. Even they usually have an underlying cause though.



> As for my reference of Israel being a cop-out answer...if we stopped supporting Israel tomorrow (which by the way is a nation that was legally created by the UN and has a right to exist in spite of what the anti-Semites of the world think) the issue of radical Islam would not go away. In fact, Bin Laden declared jihad on us for U.S. troops first being on Saudi soil before the first Persian Gulf War (troops the Saudi royalty asked for in protection of a possible Iraqi invasion of Saudi Arabia). The cries are like Hitler saying that if we just gave him the Rhineland, he would ask for no more land in Europe. Look where that ended up.


I'm really not sure how the radical Muslims would react if USA stopped supporting Israel. It's hard to say. I'd think that USA did so much damage that if it stopped supporting Israel then they'd have to at least support the Arab countries...

And a quick fyi, it is not being anti-Semitic to oppose Israel, it is anti-Zionist, which is perfectly ok in my book since the Zionists basically stole the land. 



> The Muslims that committed 9/11 hijacked your faith and has a sick, twisted way of showing they have beliefs. It doesn't represent all Muslims, but the rest of the world needs to stand up and condemn them.


They didn't hijack Islam. Despite what people say, they didn't do it because of their faith, but a lot of people don't understand that. Read the link that afkatk posted, in the words of Osama himself he said that he did it because of USA/Israel relations. 

And it isn't 'my' faith, I'm Atheist. I'm just tired of seeing people being intolerant towards Muslim because of what a few select number of people did.


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## seancarleton77 (Jul 4, 2006)

TheLoneShark said:


> I guess we should tear down those Catholic churches in Manchester City Centre then? After all, it's such a painful daily reminder of the IRA...


The IRA was formed because a bunch of worthless cu*ts thought they owned everything and could kill anyone they wanted to without consequence. By the IRA whooped that ass and embarrassed an "empire".


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## Toots Dalton (Feb 8, 2010)

seancarleton77 said:


> The IRA was formed because a bunch of worthless cu*ts thought they owned everything and could kill anyone they wanted to without consequence. By the IRA whooped that ass and embarrassed an "empire".


Yeah, because what they did worked didn't it?
Oh wait...

Look, the bottom line is it's pissing people off, it's clear people don't want it there, so why do it? Is there no such thing as a compromise anymore?
It's just a case of saying "Look, people aren't happy about this, lets make other plans, ok?"


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## dele3344 (Jun 27, 2010)

First they came for the Communists. I didn't speak up because I wasn't a communist.

Then they came for the trade unionists. I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews. I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.

Then they came for me, but by that time, there was no one left to speak up.

-Martin Niemöller


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## TheLoneShark (Apr 2, 2009)

seancarleton77 said:


> The IRA was formed because a bunch of worthless cu*ts thought they owned everything and could kill anyone they wanted to without consequence. By the IRA whooped that ass and embarrassed an "empire".


Replace 'IRA' with 'Al-Qaeda' and see if you can understand how you just repeated what I said.


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## afkatk (May 4, 2007)

Toots Dalton said:


> Look, the bottom line is it's pissing people off, it's clear people don't want it there, so why do it? Is there no such thing as a compromise anymore?
> It's just a case of saying "Look, people aren't happy about this, lets make other plans, ok?"


I think Obama said the correct things, it is a privately held property and the freedom of religion is in the American Constitution. They have every right to do what they want with this property.


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## seancarleton77 (Jul 4, 2006)

TheLoneShark said:


> Replace 'IRA' with 'Al-Qaeda' and see if you can understand how you just repeated what I said.


More like the Taliban with the Soviet Union. Anyway the U.S. didn't just show up in Saudi Arabia and senselessly murder a bunch of innocents because they thought they were superior to them.

The IRA has done some fucked up unforgivable things but never on the level that the UK did "legally". The IRA was formed because of land that belongs to the Irish being stolen and inequality. The Irish were always treated like a separate second class race, we're not really even white.


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## Stormbringer (May 3, 2008)

TheLoneShark said:


> I guess we should tear down those Catholic churches in Manchester City Centre then? After all, it's such a painful daily reminder of the IRA...


I spoke of the little area in NYC. If we use your idiotic logic then we would have to destroy the entire United States, after all it's a hard SEVERAL HUNDRED YEARLY reminders of ya know, everything ya know slavery related. Indian massacres and what not.


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## Panzer (May 31, 2007)

Some people may not like Ole Keith Olberman but in this video, he really KO's(get it?) the ignorant opposition.


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## TheLoneShark (Apr 2, 2009)

seancarleton77 said:


> The Irish were always treated like a separate second class race, we're not really even white.


Thanks again for the lecture on shit I already knew. I'm Irish, too. And I could go on a big fuckin' rant about the lack of 'Irish' on the ethnic checklists on application forms. I've had them sent back before now for writing 'Irish, thanks' on them where the nearest options were 'White British' or 'White European.'


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## Y2J™ (Nov 13, 2009)

Panther said:


> Some people may not like Ole Keith Olberman but in this video, he really KO's(get it?) the ignorant opposition.


Wow that really puts it into perspective. I hate how the people opposing this mosque conveniently forget to mention it's a 13 story building with things for the entire community. People against the mosque honestly wouldn't be able to form a rebuttal against this guy, he just makes too much sense.


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## JuviJuiceIsLoose (Mar 27, 2009)

In that neighborhood there are strip clubs and porno shops. I fail to see how this is "hallowed ground". It's not even on the same block as Ground Zero.

The building won't even be a Mosque. It'll be similar to a Muslim YMCA.

There's gonna be basketball courts, a swimming pool, and a freaking Chef's learning center. Oh yeah, there's a place upstairs where Muslims can pray.

Those features are about as American as it gets.

This whole controversy proves that people who are against this that claim to love this country and what it stands for are frauds.

They claim to love the Constitution, but they're trying to stop people from practicing their Freedom of Religion and Freedom of Assembly.

They claim to love capitalism and the Free Market. Well, this is a classic case of the Free Market at work.

This is fear mongering by morons like Newt Gingrich and Sarah Palin. Yeah, those 2 geniuses are experts at what's Moral in this country. Newt left his 1st wife while she had cancer, and he cheated on his 2nd wife for his 3rd wife while he was going around the Country condemning Bill Clinton from getting a blowjob. Of course, if he does it, it's not wrong!

I'm not even gonna get into Sarah Palin's morals.


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## BruiserKC (Mar 14, 2010)

Y2J™ said:


> I don't think you get the point. They do NOT fight because of religion. They are fighting because of the invasion of Iraq, the American support of Israel, and whatever else the Western world did to Muslims that USA condoned. You have to look at the bigger picture. They may use their religion as a weapon, but it isn't the main reason they are so hateful towards Westerners. It also has nothing to do with Islam itself, but the fact that it is a religion. They, like most religious people, try to convince themselves that what they are doing will somehow get them brownie points in Heaven. They twist and manipulate the aspects of their religion, Islam is a peaceful religion for the most part.
> 
> I will give you this, though: There may be a few Muslims who fight for their religion. Even they usually have an underlying cause though.
> 
> ...


I am not intolerant towards Islam, no matter what you read of my posts. I want to live and let live, but I know I'll be damned if someone tries to kill me. The 3000 people murdered in the WTC were innocent, at least our soldiers for the most part haven't gone out of their way to deliberately murder innocent civilians. 

Osama Bin Laden might have taken up the cause for Israeli-Palestinian relations, but it's a cop-out because how many really give a shit about the Palestinians? They get kicked out of wherever they've tried to end up. If people really wanted to help Palestine, they would but prefer instead to use them to fight the proxy war against Israel. Besides, in 1948, Israel and the Palestinian Arabs were offered their own countries. Israel accepted, the Arabs rejected Transjordan and tried several times to force the Israelis off their land. And I won't even get started with all the apologists that say if Israel just did all this they'd be left alone. 

The Islamists are not stupid. This is part of a greater plan underway to convert the world to Islam. Imam Rauf in the past has said that the United States should submit to Sharia law. There was the case of the Dutch filmmaker murdered for his movie that was very critical about Islam. This is like Nazi Germany all over again. Hitler used the media and heart-strings to get his way. Hell, he even wrote about it with "Mein Kampf." When Osama came out with his video talking about America can convert to Islam, that was his "Mein Kampf." The Islamists use propaganda and tug at heart-strings to get their way. If we don't wake up, it will be too late. 

In which case, atheists like yourself and those like me who prefer to think for myself would be the first ones to get our heads lopped off. I'd prefer not to let that happen. I want to live in my own corner of the world, and I'm fine if everyone plays nicely in the sandbox. If people want to play in another sandbox than mine, that's fine with me too. Contrary to what the rest of the world may think, most Americans like myself are logical, well-meaning people. We don't recognize the idiots and cowards that make up our government. But as the old flag with the snake said, "Don't Tread On Me."


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## Panzer (May 31, 2007)

BruiserKC said:


> I am not intolerant towards Islam, no matter what you read of my posts. I want to live and let live, but I know I'll be damned if someone tries to kill me. The 3000 people murdered in the WTC were innocent, at least our soldiers for the most part haven't gone out of their way to deliberately murder innocent civilians.
> 
> Osama Bin Laden might have taken up the cause for Israeli-Palestinian relations, but it's a cop-out because how many really give a shit about the Palestinians? They get kicked out of wherever they've tried to end up. If people really wanted to help Palestine, they would but prefer instead to use them to fight the proxy war against Israel. Besides, in 1948, Israel and the Palestinian Arabs were offered their own countries. Israel accepted, the Arabs rejected Transjordan and tried several times to force the Israelis off their land. And I won't even get started with all the apologists that say if Israel just did all this they'd be left alone.
> 
> ...


There's also a lot of Christians that want all the blacks out of America and for unbelievers to die. But "a lot" certainly doesn't mean even close to a majority.

Just like how a majority of Christians cherrypick rules from the bible, many Muslims cheerypick rules from the koran.


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## BruiserKC (Mar 14, 2010)

Panther said:


> There's also a lot of Christians that want all the blacks out of America and for unbelievers to die. But "a lot" certainly doesn't mean even close to a majority.
> 
> Just like how a majority of Christians cherrypick rules from the bible, many Muslims cheerypick rules from the koran.



And I can stand up and say that nutcases like the Rev. Pat Robertson and Fred Phelps don't represent my views as a Christian.


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## Panzer (May 31, 2007)

BruiserKC said:


> And I can stand up and say that nutcases like the Rev. Pat Robertson and Fred Phelps don't represent my views as a Christian.


Of course you can. If Christians didn't ignore their leaders, they wouldn't have conformed to more conventional societal and moral norms that makes them tolerable(in most cases) today. It's what helped get us out of the Dark Ages.


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## SaveMeCM (Feb 7, 2010)

Panther, even Obama doesn't necessarily think the community center w/ mosque is a good idea. He said he won't comment on the wiseness. Obama is always on his knees for Islam(what's wrong with him, endorsing and praising something started up by a pedophile who fucked a 9 y/o?), and even he thinks this may be unwise. I still support the President( although he's far too right wing for my tastes), but he's definitely not my favourite atheist. It's depressing watching the MSNBC opinion people right now. I usually admire them and respect and agree with 90 percent of what they say, but they go too far by getting on their knees for Islam non-stop. Can they criticize Islam at least a little? They're too worried about being PC and not hurting anyone's feelings. They act like bashing Islam is the same thing as bashing all Arab people. A lot of fundie Christian conservatives really do hate all Arabs, but MSNBC shouldn't act like that's the case with all of us. The Democrats bashing this do not hate all Arabs. The atheists don't. The Muslim Arabs criticizing this don't hate all Arabs. They're grouping us all together, like they claim we do with all Muslims.

FAUX News, MSNBC, Obama, and Palin all agree on the same point. They have the right to build. I don't see anything wrong with giving a big FUCK YOU to Islam and the shady people behind this center when they ask for the attention in the first place. More people should be saying "Fuck Islam", and more people should be saying "Fuck Christianity".

About the other mosques in the area... they are not relevant. The location was not chosen for them because of their connection to an attack that killed thousands. This mosques location was chosen just for that reason, and is a provocation. No one is against mosques or churches. No one wants to tear down an old mosque in the area just because of what happened 30 or 40 years after it was built. I agree this should not be called the Ground Zero Mosque. That was a creation of FAUX, and the only time they're right on an issue, they still manage to get it wrong haha. The community center and worship place should instead be labelled by the media as the "9/11 community center and mosque". "9/11" because they chose this location because of it's connection to the attacks, and because they want to take the attention off the 9/11 victims on the anniversary and put it onto them and Islam. If 9/11 wasn't already forever tied to Islam, they will make sure it is.


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## Panzer (May 31, 2007)

SaveMeCM said:


> Panther, even Obama doesn't necessarily think the community center w/ mosque is a good idea. He said he won't comment on the wiseness. Obama is always on his knees for Islam(what's wrong with him, endorsing and praising something started up by a pedophile who fucked a 9 y/o?), and even he thinks this may be unwise. I still support the President( although he's far too right wing for my tastes), but he's definitely not my favourite atheist. It's depressing watching the MSNBC opinion people right now. I usually admire them and respect and agree with 90 percent of what they say, but they go too far by getting on their knees for Islam non-stop. Can they criticize Islam at least a little? They're too worried about being PC and not hurting anyone's feelings. They act like bashing Islam is the same thing as bashing all Arab people. A lot of fundie Christian conservatives really do hate all Arabs, but MSNBC shouldn't act like that's the case with all of us. The Democrats bashing this do not hate all Arabs. The atheists don't. The Muslim Arabs criticizing this don't hate all Arabs. They're grouping us all together, like they claim we do with all Muslims.
> 
> FAUX News, MSNBC, Obama, and Palin all agree on the same point. They have the right to build. I don't see anything wrong with giving a big FUCK YOU to Islam and the shady people behind this center when they ask for the attention in the first place. More people should be saying "Fuck Islam", and more people should be saying "Fuck Christianity".
> 
> About the other mosques in the area... they are not relevant. The location was not chosen for them because of their connection to an attack that killed thousands. This mosques location was chosen just for that reason, and is a provocation. No one is against mosques or churches. No one wants to tear down an old mosque in the area just because of what happened 30 or 40 years after it was built. I agree this should not be called the Ground Zero Mosque. That was a creation of FAUX, and the only time they're right on an issue, they still manage to get it wrong haha. The community center and worship place should instead be labelled by the media as the "9/11 community center and mosque". "9/11" because they chose this location because of it's connection to the attacks, and because they want to take the attention off the 9/11 victims on the anniversary and put it onto them and Islam. If 9/11 wasn't already forever tied to Islam, they will make sure it is.


Paragraphs won't do this justice.

-When was the last time I gave a damn what Obama and his monotone and boring attitude think?

-He's a Christian. Not an Atheist(although I wish)

-They aren't defending Islam idiot. They're defending their right to free speech and opposing religious double standards in this country. 

-It's not their space to critisize Islam at this point. They're reporting news and giving opinions on the COMMUNITY CENTER. I watch MSNBC a lot. Olberman has spoken out against Islam and so has Cenk Uyger of The Young Turks who is a former Muslim. But after seeing what Dr. Laura did, it's good to keep the advice and criticism seperate.

-Mosque's are EXCLUSIVELY for worship. This one is a Muslim Community Center that just so happens to have a few prayer rooms for the daily prayers.

I don't think I have any more room to dismantle your mess. It's just sooooo tiring to have to respond to people like this every time they post., There's too many of you guys. I can't keep up.


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## MrMister (Mar 11, 2005)

This stuff is taken way too seriously. There are much bigger problems out there. Oh wait, this isn't even really a problem.

I guess talking only about unemployment and how the top 1% fucks everything up for everyone else gets old.

EDIT: And what Panther said...well said.


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## SaveMeCM (Feb 7, 2010)

Come on. Everyone who has issue with this is not just ignorant.

Professor Richard Dawkins has no issue with Sam Harris' article and added, "There's a difference between what people have a legal right to do and what they ought to know better than to do.

Richard".


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## Y2J™ (Nov 13, 2009)

> Obama is always on his knees for Islam(what's wrong with him, endorsing and praising something started up by a pedophile who fucked a 9 y/o?)


Wow. That's all I can say.

Even if you have a problem with Islam itself (which would mean you are extremely undeducated about the facts, intolerant and ignorant) America STILL has freedom of religion. All those idiotic Christian white supremacists that think all 'ayrab muhzlims' are terrorists will be swallowing their own shit when this thing gets built. And if they try to vandalize it they'll be vandalizing a whole community centre for a part of USA that was hit hard by a terrorist attack. So just saying, if they do decide to fuck with the community centre, they'll be giving a big fuck you to the whole community, possibly injuring the people in the mosque and in the rest of the community centre and putting all the money spent in that community centre to waste in this already shitty economy. If people decide to leave it alone, EVERYONE will be happy, even the people whose families died in 9/11. People think we should listen to their intolerance because someone they knew was affected in 9/11. Newsflash, it's still intolerance no matter the circumstances.


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## Toots Dalton (Feb 8, 2010)

Calling the people who oppose it intolerant, or even the dreaded racist, is complete bollocks. As the dude in the video said there are already mosques in the area, and they've been there long before 9/11. And of course most people don't give a fuck do they? If it really was a huge problem those Mosques wouldn't be there right now, one way or another, so it's pretty clear what the problem is.

And come on, IF (not 100% sure) the place is supposed to open on the 10th anniversary of 9/11, then that has to be taking the piss if true!

With all this being debated, although I've been to the site I'm not a New Yorker, I didn't lose anybody in the attacks, so really aside from having an opinion, it's got fuck all to do with me really.

I'd really like to know more about the people in the area, their feelings about it, both from Muslims & non Muslims, I've seen plenty of ror/against talk, but not from the people who actually matter.


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## reDREDD (Oct 12, 2008)

The way I see it, people just need to chill the fuck out. Honestly, the sensationalist media keeps blowing things out of proportion trying to get people 'outraged' or 'scared'.

First they said they are building a mosque on ground zero. Then they say its a few blocks away from Ground Zero. Then we hear there are a few mosques in that area anyways. Then we hear its not even a mosque, its a muslim YMCA that HAPPENS to have a few prayer rooms.

Fucking media.

Honestly, people just need to look up facts for themselves. Hell, i'm willing to bet half of the US thinks Iran is working together with Al Qaeda to take over the world.


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## Toots Dalton (Feb 8, 2010)

> Then we hear its not even a mosque, its a muslim YMCA


I'm actually shock this hasn't become an issue, MUSLIMS ONLY YMCA!!!! or suchlike.
Plenty of time for that lol.


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## SaveMeCM (Feb 7, 2010)

Y2J™ said:


> Wow. That's all I can say.
> 
> Even if you have a problem with Islam itself (which would mean you are extremely undeducated about the facts, intolerant and ignorant) America STILL has freedom of religion.


If opposing pedophilia and .... of children makes me intolerant, I wouldn't have it any other way.

How about we consult an actual Muslim country to see what Islam is really all about? Hmmm..

Death to Apostates favoured by three quarters of Pakistanis?

http://richarddawkins.net/discussio...ates-favoured-by-three-quarters-of-pakistanis

The Pew Research Center published, on July 29th 2010, a survey of public opinion in Pakistan. This was part of a larger Pew Global Attitudes Survey. The report on Pakistan in particular can be seen at http://pewglobal.org/2010/07/29/concern-about-extremist-threat-slips-in-pakistan/

85% favour segregation of men and women in the workplace

82% think adulterers should be stoned to death

82% think thieves should be whipped or have their hands cut off

76% favour the death penalty for people who leave Islam


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## Toots Dalton (Feb 8, 2010)

SaveMeCM said:


> If opposing pedophilia and .... of children makes me intolerant, I wouldn't have it any other way.
> 
> How about we consult an actual Muslim country to see what Islam is really all about? Hmmm..
> 
> ...


Oh goodness yeah!
Say what you want about the Western World, but tolerance is really one of our strong points.


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## Panzer (May 31, 2007)

SaveMeCM said:


> If opposing pedophilia and .... of children makes me intolerant, I wouldn't have it any other way.
> 
> How about we consult an actual Muslim country to see what Islam is really all about? Hmmm..
> 
> ...


Dawkins isn't the leader of Atheism. I don't have to listen to all that he says if that's what your trying to suggest. I believe those numbers but it has nothing to do with the subject at hand. And speaking of the subject at hand.

Stop with this shit. Those people already have the building permit and permission from the city to start renovating so all this bickering is falling on deaf ears. It's going to be there whether anyone likes it or not. No amount of public polls or protests will stop it.


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## Y2J™ (Nov 13, 2009)

Toots Dalton said:


> Calling the people who oppose it intolerant, or even the dreaded racist, is complete bollocks.


I didn't call the people who oppose the mosque racist, but I was calling the people who think that "all Arabs and Muslims are terrorists" racist.

And come on, IF (not 100% sure) the place is supposed to open on the 10th anniversary of 9/11, then that has to be taking the piss if true![/QUOTE]

I'm 99% sure that that is propoganda.



> If opposing pedophilia and .... of children makes me intolerant, I wouldn't have it any other way.


I was making two seperate points. I didn't say you were intolerant because you said that Islam's prophet was a pedophile who fucked a 9 year old. However, I will say you're ignorant. I'm not going to sink to your level and insult people's religions, but you can find shit wrong with the prophets of every religion. I won't say any names, but I can think of a certain prophet that is a bastard and I could go on and on about his mother.



> How about we consult an actual Muslim country to see what Islam is really all about? Hmmm..


Wow really? That is no different than consulting with ******** to see if they hate black people. There are some Muslim countries where most of the people are radicals, just as there some southern states with racists. As everyone knows, they don't count for most America (*cough* black president *cough*) and the radical Islamists definitely don't count for most of the Middle East.


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## MrMister (Mar 11, 2005)

SaveMeCM said:


> If opposing pedophilia and .... of children makes me intolerant, I wouldn't have it any other way.
> 
> How about we consult an actual Muslim country to see what Islam is really all about? Hmmm..
> 
> ...


C'mon dude what the fuck. Whatever happens in Pakistan has absolutely no bearing on what happens in the US. For the record there are people in the US who would agree with some of that in your post and they aren't Muslim either. That doesn't matter either because none of that insanity is law in the US.

So all you're telling us is that crazy people are crazy.


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## SaveMeCM (Feb 7, 2010)

Panther said:


> Dawkins isn't the leader of Atheism. I don't have to listen to all that he says if that's what your trying to suggest. I believe those numbers but it has nothing to do with the subject at hand. And speaking of the subject at hand.


I just threw the Professor's name out there to show that not all people that have issue with this are stupid or ignorant people like they're being labelled. I'm not saying you should listen to all he says. I don't either. I formed my opinion long ago, and just found out yesterday what his view is.



> Stop with this shit. Those people already have the building permit and permission from the city to start renovating so all this bickering is falling on deaf ears. It's going to be there whether anyone likes it or not. No amount of public polls or protests will stop it.


Maybe stopping it is not the point. Just because it's going forward, that doesn't mean people can't speak out against the provocation and verbally push back and raise awareness about what Islam really is. Professor Dawkins and Sam Harris' opinion doesn't necessarily matter, but it doesn't make me less confident in my opinion that they think it's reasonable to have issue with the center. Their opinion is generally a lot more respectable than the opinion people on MSNBC, who you'll never see saying a bad word about Christianity either. They talk about the Bible as if it's of the upmost importance. I'm sorry, but I can not take them seriously on this issue when they are making up fake conditions like "Islamaphobia".



> C'mon dude what the fuck. Whatever happens in Pakistan has absolutely no bearing on what happens in the US. For the record there are people in the US who would agree with some of that in your post and they aren't Muslim either. That doesn't matter either because none of that insanity is law in the US.
> 
> So all you're telling us is that crazy people are crazy.


That was not on the topic of the NYC community center. What I posted was in response to the claim that I am misrepresenting Islam and am not educated about the facts. What better place to find out about pure Islam than in an actual Muslim country? What are our findings from those numbers? That 80% of Pakistan is distorting the truly peaceful religion?


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## MrMister (Mar 11, 2005)

SaveMeCM said:


> That was not on the topic of the NYC community center. What I posted was in response to the claim that I am misrepresenting Islam and am not educated about the facts. What better place to find out about pure Islam than in an actual Muslim country? What are our findings from those numbers? That 80% of Pakistan is distorting the truly peaceful religion?


My point still holds though. People are free to practice their religions as long as those religions don't break any laws. You get the freedoms of the Bill of Rights as long as you abide the laws. 

That brand of Islam, and that way of thinking, will not be usurping the US government any time soon.

Also, I have to assume if Pakistani people think the way they do it is because there is no opposition philosophy, nor opposition authority to counter them. Were those polls taken by those tribes that live on the border of Afghanistan? Those people are nuts.


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## reDREDD (Oct 12, 2008)

MrMister said:


> C'mon dude what the fuck. Whatever happens in Pakistan has absolutely no bearing on what happens in the US. For the record there are people in the US who would agree with some of that in your post and they aren't Muslim either. That doesn't matter either because none of that insanity is law in the US.
> 
> *So all you're telling us is that crazy people are crazy.*


Bingo.

Crazy people are crazy. And in some places, what they call religion, is nothing more than culture and rituals. Take the burka for example. It was in the middle east long before Islam. It was just from the backwards culture. Now, they've tried turning this 'tradition' into part of the muslim faith.

Honestly, the way I see it, its no use arguing over this. Nobody will exactly change their mind over an internet argument on a wrestling forum. 

Your faith, or lack of one, is something just between you and your God. Be accepting of your fellow man, and love them as your brother. Maybe then, the world can be a better place.


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## Hazzard (Feb 12, 2008)

If Muslims had any sensitivity they would condemn the building of this 'centre', just feel like the mosque is in poor taste and not really needed.


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## MrMister (Mar 11, 2005)

I read that apparently (since I have no actual knowledge of NYC real estate) the real estate around where this community center will be built is dirt cheap. It's a veritable ghost town supposedly.


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## seancarleton77 (Jul 4, 2006)

dele3344 said:


> First they came for the Communists. I didn't speak up because I wasn't a communist.
> 
> Then they came for the trade unionists. I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist.
> 
> ...


That is an amazing quote. History tends to repeat itself because people ignore such things.


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## seancarleton77 (Jul 4, 2006)

Toots Dalton said:


> Look, the bottom line is it's pissing people off, it's clear people don't want it there, so why do it? Is there no such thing as a compromise anymore?
> It's just a case of saying "Look, people aren't happy about this, lets make other plans, ok?"


This compromise would be a blow to not just religious freedom but to human rights, on second thought this could be a good idea, maybe we can stop women from voting too.

By the way there is already a Mosque in the neighbourhood, it's been there for over 40 years, do you think they should tear it down as well?


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## BruiserKC (Mar 14, 2010)

What really pisses me off about this whole thing is that there are people like me that have legitimate concerns, and then nutjobs like Rev. Franklin Graham just muck the whole thing up. Graham referred to Obama as born Muslim, when he is clearly never been a Muslim. 

I think everyone needs to sit down and talk this thing out, because the whole thing is getting ugly. Granted, I know I might have made comments about radical Islam (I understand its the fringe and not the mainstream of Muslims) but I am not stooping to opening up hate on people that haven't earned it. 

There is no way at this point I see this thing get built. People have come out and said they'll lay down in front of the bulldozers and trucks and make sure it never happens. Plus it will take one knucklehead or more to blow the thing up or burn it down.

BTW, seancarleton...compromise won't kill religious freedom in this case, although it seems that freedom of religion has been under attack for a while especially when it comes to Christians.


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## dan the marino (Oct 22, 2006)

All the protesting in the world isn't going to change anything. They bought the land; therefore they get to build the Mosque.

And yet again, this recreational center is being built several blocks away from the WTC, so really there are no legit complaints.


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## MrMister (Mar 11, 2005)

What are your legitimate concerns Bruiser?

Also, I'm definitely not seeing how religious freedom is under attack regarding Christians.


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## reDREDD (Oct 12, 2008)

seancarleton77 said:


> That is an amazing quote. History tends to repeat itself because people ignore such things.


Agreed. But I fail to see its relevance to this thread.


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## BruiserKC (Mar 14, 2010)

MrMister said:


> What are your legitimate concerns Bruiser?
> 
> Also, I'm definitely not seeing how religious freedom is under attack regarding Christians.


I think where they want to build this mosque is in poor taste. Plus, from what I've been hearing Imam Rauf is not as moderate as he's been made out to be. 

Everywhere you turn, no one wants to hear the mention of God if you're a Christian. They take away the right of kids to pray in public school even if it's on their own. Forget mention of Merry Christmas or Happy Easter in ads come those times of the year, and the malls will not allow even the mention of those holidays. Separation of church and state has gone completely in a direction no one expected it to. 

It's apparently OK to be an atheist, but Christians are mocked openly and if we defend ourselves we're seen as hateful or threatening.


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## Arya Dark (Sep 8, 2006)

*But this is being built/renovated on private property... I don't see how Church/State comes in to play with this.*


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## Roger Sterling (Dec 23, 2009)

LadyCroft said:


> *But this is being built/renovated on private property... I don't see how Church/State comes in to play with this.*


It's basically exploded in the media, and now all of a sudden it's become a Republican/Democrat, MSNBC/FOX issue. The media completely forgets the Church/State stuff and it turns into Red vs. Blue. It just stuns me that we have mounting debt, a collapsing economy, and a war on terror going on....yet we worry about a mosque in NY.

Listen I'm against the mosque in NY, because I find it insensitive to the families that lost people on 9-11. The leaders who are building this mosque have the right to do whatever they want and worship whomever they want. I understand radical Muslims attacked NYC on 9-11, but we shoudn't judge every Muslim as a "terrorist". So if these leaders want to build it there, go ahead, but I find it to be very insensitive and hurtful to the families.


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## Arya Dark (Sep 8, 2006)

*It's not even a red vs blue thing anymore. There's a lot of democrats who are against it. 

I hope it doesn't happen, personally, but I'm all for their right to build what they want to build on private property. *


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## Roger Sterling (Dec 23, 2009)

LadyCroft said:


> *It's not even a red vs blue thing anymore. There's a lot of democrats who are against it.
> 
> I hope it doesn't happen, personally, but I'm all for their right to build what they want to build on private property. *


I still think there is _some_ validity to the red vs. blue claim, because while 70% of the country doesn't want this mosque...a majority of Democrats are backing Obama on this issue. Howard Dean and Harry Reid are against it, Obama and Pelosi are for it. Pelosi said there should be an investigation for people against this mosque, and you see MSNBC (not that it's credible ) calling people who oppose it bigots, racists, and Islamophobic.

Republicans really are just trying anything to discredit Obama, so of course they are going to oppose the building (not saying all oppose it).

Personally, I could care less....I'm worried about more things than a mosque. But I agree with you, I would oppose it as well, because it's insensitive to 9-11 families.


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## MrMister (Mar 11, 2005)

BruiserKC said:


> I think where they want to build this mosque is in poor taste. Plus, from what I've been hearing Imam Rauf is not as moderate as he's been made out to be.
> 
> Everywhere you turn, no one wants to hear the mention of God if you're a Christian. They take away the right of kids to pray in public school even if it's on their own. Forget mention of Merry Christmas or Happy Easter in ads come those times of the year, and the malls will not allow even the mention of those holidays. Separation of church and state has gone completely in a direction no one expected it to.
> 
> It's apparently OK to be an atheist, but Christians are mocked openly and if we defend ourselves we're seen as hateful or threatening.


That stuff seems pretty trivial to me. However, I don't have your perspective since I'm not a Christian. Obviously to you, these things are not trivial. I'm kinda with you on the getting rid of Merry Christmas and the prayer thing. None of that stuff offends me though like it apparently does other people.


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## MovieStarR™ (Aug 28, 2007)

Disgusting.


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## Y2J™ (Nov 13, 2009)

BruiserKC said:


> I think where they want to build this mosque is in poor taste. Plus, from what I've been hearing Imam Rauf is not as moderate as he's been made out to be.


Fair enough. But I still don't get the argument that it's insensitive to the families... it's going to be in a community centre. They're not being forced to look at it. And I still think they're ignorant if they think that the terrorists did what they did because of their religion. There are other mosques in the neighbourhood too, why weren't they torn down if they're in poor taste?

In general I don't see the point of mosques, or churches, but this is in a community centre and it's private property, he can do whatever he wants. I just think that there are more reasons to support the building of the mosque than reasons to oppose it, if there are any. I'll listen if someone can find a valid reason to oppose building a community centre. Right now I don't see any reasons to oppose it besides people's general lack of understanding of why 9/11 happened.


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## llamadux (Dec 26, 2008)

It will be burned to the ground, and a race war will rise from the ashes. Bring on the Mosque.


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## JuviJuiceIsLoose (Mar 27, 2009)

BruiserKC said:


> I think where they want to build this mosque is in poor taste. Plus, from what I've been hearing Imam Rauf is not as moderate as he's been made out to be.
> 
> Everywhere you turn, no one wants to hear the mention of God if you're a Christian. They take away the right of kids to pray in public school even if it's on their own. Forget mention of Merry Christmas or Happy Easter in ads come those times of the year, and the malls will not allow even the mention of those holidays. Separation of church and state has gone completely in a direction no one expected it to.
> 
> It's apparently OK to be an atheist, but Christians are mocked openly and if we defend ourselves we're seen as hateful or threatening.




Imam Rauf isn't a radical at all. The guy worked for the FBI Anti-Terrorism Unit under George W. Bush. 

He made a speech basically saying that if being a Christian or Jew means I love my fellow man and take care of my brother. I'm a Christian and I'm a Jew.

Christianity isn't under attack. The overwhelming majority of the country is Christian.

Not only is Christmas and Easter not going anywhere, but it seems people start celebrating sooner and sooner. It's like right after Labor Day, people are putting up Christmas lights.

As for going to the mall and people not being allowed to say Merry Christmas. I don't see that as a big deal. Not everyone celebrates Christmas, so that's just a way to be more inclusive. There's nothing sinister about saying Happy Holidays. 

I don't see how being an Atheist is "OK". Atheists, and as long as a group of people are in the minority, they're always gonna be looked down upon.

Everything you talk about is exactly what the Separation of Church and State is about.

As far as people who picked out the location of center deliberately trying to disrespect and hurt the families of victims. 

There have been family members who have come out both in favor and against the building. So, there's no consensus, and there never will be.

The reason why this is a big issue is because it's a being called a Mosque. It's not a Mosque. I haven't been to many Mosques, but I don't think there are that many of them that have basketball courts, swimming pools, and Chef's Schools.

Plus, there are real Mosques all over that area in Lower Manhattan. A few have even been there longer than the World Trade Center. Should they have to shut down?


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## Y2J™ (Nov 13, 2009)

> The reason why this is a big issue is because it's a being called a Mosque. It's not a Mosque. I haven't been to many Mosques, but I don't think there are that many of them that have basketball courts, swimming pools, and Chef's Schools.


Maybe it's some type of super-Mosque bent on taking over all of Manhatten. That's what most people seem to think


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## BruiserKC (Mar 14, 2010)

JuviJuiceIsLoose said:


> Imam Rauf isn't a radical at all. The guy worked for the FBI Anti-Terrorism Unit under George W. Bush.
> 
> He made a speech basically saying that if being a Christian or Jew means I love my fellow man and take care of my brother. I'm a Christian and I'm a Jew.
> 
> ...


Christianity is under attack by those who want to turn America into a secular and progressive society. You have people suing simply for the words "Under God" being in the Pledge of Allegiance. Stores will promote the hell out of Christmas sales (starting them up right after the back-to-school rush) but won't say Christmas. You can't even have Christmas parties at school anymore. 

The idea of separation of church and state was to originally make sure that a certain religion does not take priority in this country through our government (The Church of England, for example). Now they want to wipe away ALL mention of any faith all over, especially Christians. I have no problem with people believing what they believe (or as some people have said they are here...to not believe what they don't believe). But now you have people that are offended at the mention of God so they strike it to the point no one can say it. Sorry, that's not how it should work. 

Rauf has been known to support Hamas, plus he came out and said that America was responsible for 9/11. Doesn't make him sound like a moderate to me. As for working with Bush...Dubya ended up being like everyone else that has run this country the last 30 years and been an apologist for radical Islam.


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## MrMister (Mar 11, 2005)

Christianity isn't under attack. People can still practice Christianity on their own.

Seriously, there are people that don't want to listen to vocal prayers. They don't want to be a part of Christmas. Why should they be forced to participate in something they don't believe in...and with some, something that disgusts them? It's better just to have a generic "winter festival" deal.

Separation of church and state isn't so one religion takes priority, it's so any given religion doesn't influence or even run the state. Christianity still has that influence over the state.


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## Panzer (May 31, 2007)

llamadux said:


> It will be burned to the ground, and a race war will rise from the ashes. Bring on the Mosque.


That's what the extremists who attacked us on 9/11 want. For us to be as intolerant and violent as them. For us to demonize ourselves so the rest of the world will hate us even more. For us to be even more xenophobic so we will collapse under the weight of our own wrongs.

And it's not even a mosque. Geez, do you people even read?


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## Deshad C. (Jun 25, 2008)

Since when did the majority wanting something make it right or even just?

Fuck the majority, do whats right. 
Do what this country was actually founded on and let them build their mosque...


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## MrMister (Mar 11, 2005)

Exactly. That's why the Judicial Branch exists. Morons like Sarah Palin call the Judicial Branch tyrants that oppose the will of the people. The judges are _supposed_ to interpret law and make sure it jives with The Constitution.

She might actually know this, but it sounds good to make the opposition out to be tyrannical I suppose. It's still stupid.


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## Arya Dark (Sep 8, 2006)

*I think she's smart enough to know this... at least I'd hope so.  


I love it when the Conservatives use "protect the Constitution" when it serves them but they conveniently forget about that when it hurts their case.*


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## Deshad C. (Jun 25, 2008)

Lol, Sarah Palin makes me a confused Panda. 

I dont know if she's THAT dumb, or if she plays it up...I mean sometimes I think she's pretending...and if she is that alone makes her a genius. But if she's not, and she IS that dumb...then by gawd I can't believe she could've been our Vice Pres.


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## Arya Dark (Sep 8, 2006)

*She would have been no worse than our current VP... actually she might have been better.  

At least we would have gotten some laughs.*


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## MrMister (Mar 11, 2005)

Come on Sabrina, Joe Biden is good for some laughs both intentional and unintentional. He's a doofus too. He's not Quayle doofus, but the dude can stick his entire foot in his mouth often.


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## Deshad C. (Jun 25, 2008)

Yes he can, and he often does, but when it comes down to it he's well known for being one of the sharpest minds when it comes to foreign policy and both sides of the aisle agree on that.

I still don't think Palin is as dumb as she lets on though....I mean...NO ONE on that level of the national stage can be that absentminded.


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## axl626 (May 11, 2010)

Nothing like subverting the constitution to prove you love America, right anti-Mosque people? There's a reason freedom of speech/religion is the first amendment. And I'm sure everyone in New York, you know, the only people (aside from those at the Pentagon) in America actually attacked by terrorists, is against it, except every single one I've heard from couldn't give a fuck. The only people bitching about it are the ones who have probably never been to New York, spell Mosque mosk, spell Muslim moslim, or take everything from Fox News as word of god.

The only reason this was brought up by people like Sarah Palin and other republicans is they wanted to distract from the fact that the republicans defeated a bill to give the September 11th responders additional health coverage. It wouldn't be an issue if they weren't such dicks. And fuck the democrats who support the idea that the Mosque shouldn't be there. Although I do have to say I was pleasantly surprised by a portion of this board for subverting the stereotype that all wrestling fans are backwards hicks with their head up their ass. Unfortunately it was only a small portion.

But, like those who want to change the 14th amendment, I guess the constitution must be obeyed to the letter unless it's something they disagree with.


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## MrMister (Mar 11, 2005)

Deshad C. said:


> Yes he can, and he often does, but when it comes down to it he's well known for being one of the sharpest minds when it comes to foreign policy and both sides of the aisle agree on that.
> 
> I still don't think Palin is as dumb as she lets on though....I mean...NO ONE on that level of the national stage can be that absentminded.


Don't get me wrong I like Biden.

Palin projects what she wants. I don't think she's that bright, but she has sense. She's the epitome of crazy like a fox.


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## sharpshooter1991 (Aug 12, 2009)

Someone pointing out how the media has blown this out of proportion : 
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/aug/23/charlie-brooker-ground-zero-mosque

My personal favourite paragraph:


> The planned "ultra-mosque" will be a staggering 5,600ft tall – more than five times higher than the tallest building on Earth – and will be capped with an immense dome of highly-polished solid gold, carefully positioned to bounce sunlight directly toward the pavement, where it will blind pedestrians and fry small dogs. The main structure will be delimited by 600 minarets, each shaped like an upraised middle finger, and housing a powerful amplifier: when synchronised, their combined sonic might will be capable of relaying the muezzin's call to prayer at such deafening volume, it will be clearly audible in the Afghan mountains, where thousands of terrorists are poised to celebrate by running around with scarves over their faces, firing AK-47s into the sky and yelling whatever the foreign word for "victory" is


:lmao I love sarcastic media sometimes.


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## dele (Feb 21, 2005)

http://blogs.wsj.com/metropolis/201...-a-test-of-our-commitment-to-american-values/

Good read. Comments by the mayor of NYC on the proposed mosque.


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## SaveMeCM (Feb 7, 2010)

^^Mayor Bloomberg is a moron. If this is all about the constitution and law, does that mean liberals wanting more strict gun laws are anti-American? If we don't approve of the war on drugs and marijuana users being jailed, does that make us anti-American too?

MSNBC is getting more and more pathetic on this. Chris Matthews showed a poll saying that over 50 percent of Republicans are anti-Islam, and then followed up by asking why do Republicans hate Muslims? I really expected better than that. That was honestly just as bad as Glenn Beck calling the POTUS a racist. Islam does not equal Muslims. And Muslim is not a race of people. It's a belief system. I don't think Islam is due any more respect than White Supremacy. I have no problem being friends with a Muslim or a White Supremacist, as long as they are good people overall. That doesn't mean I need to respect their wacky beliefs.

FOX is almost as retarded as normal. Almost. The big argument they're using now is the 9/11 stuff the Imam said. I don't disagree with what the Imam said. The acts of the US were in part responsible for making the hijackers do what they did.

The most sensible people in all of this are Muslims themselves. Many Muslims have spoken out against the provocation of the mega-mosque and community center, and their bravery should be applauded.

I looked up Muslim forums and this was the first post I found, commenting on the Muslim cab driver who was stabbed; _Attention Seekers Behind Ground Zero mosque, have their First blood on their hands -- I really feel for this man and his family that are in grief at the moment. Its always the defenceless and innocents that get caught up, when the wisdom less, attention-seeking provocation loving, so called Muslim actively go out their way to stir controversy. May Allah (exalted) protect the helpless, defenceless and the innocents from the Fitnah of such people._


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## Smush (Jun 17, 2010)

This whole argument is the biggest crock of shit. Just build the damn thing and get it over with.


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## Panzer (May 31, 2007)

Smush said:


> This whole argument is the biggest crock of shit. Just build the damn thing and get it over with.


Nothing is being built. They're just renovating an old building.


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## seancarleton77 (Jul 4, 2006)

This is proof that America has a serious sheep infestation, 70 percent? Disgusting.


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## MrMister (Mar 11, 2005)

There are a lot of sheep, but these polls are dubious at best.


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## reDREDD (Oct 12, 2008)

Damn, no wonder Fox does so well in the ratings.


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## Flyboy78 (Aug 13, 2010)

SaveMeCM said:


> I don't disagree with what the Imam said. The acts of the US were in part responsible for making the hijackers do what they did.


So killing nearly 3000 people in cold blood was justified then? The ends justify the means, eh? Fuck that.

This mosque should not happen. This isn't a case of freedom to worship, it's a case of sensitivity and the fact it's only happening as an exercise in political correctness. All this is going to do is intensify things. No one knows anything about the funding behind it, and as usual the media outlets aren't asking any questions.


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## reDREDD (Oct 12, 2008)

Flyboy78 said:


> So killing nearly 3000 people in cold blood was justified then? The ends justify the means, eh? Fuck that.
> 
> This mosque should not happen. This isn't a case of freedom to worship, it's a case of sensitivity and the fact it's only happening as an exercise in political correctness. All this is going to do is intensify things. No one knows anything about the funding behind it, and as usual the media outlets aren't asking any questions.


I dont see how 9/11 was justified and I actually live IN the region where the supposed suspects came from. People here dont like America, and for good reason, but I can honestly say not a single person I know can even stand the Taliban. Mainly since they are insane. Its pretty much universally agreed 9/11 was a BAD thing.

And as for the Mosque, which isnt even a mosque, I dont see how anyone can oppose it. Its a friggen YMCA! Its several blocks from the area. The area they're building it in isnt even that great! Its filled with stripclubs and liquor stores. Hardly sacred ground.

You know who really is showing no respect in this entire affair? Glenn Beck and the guys blowing it out of proportion. If that had thing had just been built I doubt anyone would have even given a shit. But no, they had to turn it into this giant 'crime against nature' to try grab the viewers, scare them, an make them outraged. Not only insulting the memory of those who died in the towers, but all those in the USA who still believe in freedom.

People always talk about tolerance. People always say "If we change anything then the terrorists win". Well, this is actually one of those incidents where that is true. If people do stand against this structure, then the terrorists do win. They made you scared, more hateful, and bigoted. They succeeded in breaking your resolve

Just because a few lunatics did something very wrong doesnt mean you should take it out on other people. Thats not how humans deal with each other. And I believe in you look deep inside yourself, youd agree. And isnt that The American way?


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## seancarleton77 (Jul 4, 2006)

^ That is all that needs to be said, right there. ^


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## SaveMeCM (Feb 7, 2010)

Flyboy78 said:


> So killing nearly 3000 people in cold blood was justified then? The ends justify the means, eh? Fuck that.


No. It was not justified, but what the Imam said, even if it wasn't put in the best way, is truthful. America is not an innocent victim. I was just pointing out that FOX are clowns for using that as an agument, when there are real logical arguments available. I think pretty much all Republicans are retarded. But I also think they are correct on Islam and torture. Does their anti-Islam stance make them Islamaphobic? No. Do many of them hate all Muslims simply because of the accident of their birth? Absolutely they do, and that is not right. The problem is we're all being bunched together. The racists and bigots should be called out for what they are, but there are very good rational reasons to use this as an opportunity to oppose what Islam stands for.

These are some excellent points made by Professor Richard Dawkins on the topic;

_"..I believe Pat Condell deserves a hearing. He may sound extreme, but that could just reflect the extremes he is fighting against. I don't know the corresponding figures for America, but polls in Britain suggest that an alarmingly high percentage of young British Muslims support the terrorists of 9/11 and 7/7, and some 40% of Muslims want Sharia Law introduced into Britain. Disquietingly high percentages supported the death sentence against Salman Rushdie and the threats of violence against the Danish cartoonists. Even 'moderate' Muslim leaders support the principle that apostasy deserves the death penalty, even if they are too nice to carry out the sentence themselves.

I think it is well arguable that Islam is the greatest man-made force for evil in the world today. Pat Condell is one of the few with the courage to say so. Before condemning his 'extremism', at least consider the possibility that it may be justified.

Richard"_

_"It is easy, and tempting, to respond to criticisms of Islam by saying Christianity is just as bad. It isn't. Nowhere near. Let's not devalue our horror at the very very very bad by pretending it is no worse than the merely bad.

Richard"_


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## Oda Nobunaga (Jun 12, 2006)

SaveMeCM said:


> _"It is easy, and tempting, to respond to criticisms of Islam by saying Christianity is just as bad. It isn't. Nowhere near. Let's not devalue our horror at the very very very bad by pretending it is no worse than the merely bad."_


Christianity was just as bad as Islam in its heyday. Inquisitions, Crusades, the genocide of indigenous populations, and to a lesser extent, it was one of the justifications of Imperialism. It's incredibly tempting to say Christianity is just as bad, he's right, and it's also not difficult, because it's true, IMO. At least, it was back in the day. Christianity has matured during the centuries, though, so I'll give it the benefit of the doubt. However, judging from these polls, I'd say many people still haven't learned a damn thing regarding religious freedom.


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## KatManDo (Aug 24, 2010)

Obama stated that because of our country's freedom of religion they should have the right to build their mosque. That's not the best argument for why they should be able to build at THAT location. The simple fact that they can build their mosque in the U.S. in itself speaks of our freedom of religion, just because people do NOT want them to build in THAT particular spot does NOT take away freedom of religion, when they can build in another spot.. Bottom line.


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## Art Vandaley (Jan 9, 2006)

Islam is no worse than Christianity just more powerful as people tend to be poor and uneducated in large parts of the middle east, much as people were in europe in the middle ages whereas the more prosperous Islamic world was far more tolerant.


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## FITZ (May 8, 2007)

SaveMeCM said:


> No. It was not justified, but what the Imam said, even if it wasn't put in the best way, is truthful.* America is not an innocent victim*. I was just pointing out that FOX are clowns for using that as an agument, when there are real logical arguments available. I think pretty much all Republicans are retarded. But I also think they are correct on Islam and torture. Does their anti-Islam stance make them Islamaphobic? No. Do many of them hate all Muslims simply because of the accident of their birth? Absolutely they do, and that is not right. The problem is we're all being bunched together. The racists and bigots should be called out for what they are, but there are very good rational reasons to use this as an opportunity to oppose what Islam stands for.
> 
> These are some excellent points made by Professor Richard Dawkins on the topic;
> 
> ...


Are you fucking kidding me with this? 










How is the kid in picture that died not an innocent victim? 




KatManDo said:


> Obama stated that because of our country's freedom of religion they should have the right to build their mosque. That's not the best argument for why they should be able to build at THAT location. The simple fact that they can build their mosque in the U.S. in itself speaks of our freedom of religion, just because people do NOT want them to build in THAT particular spot does NOT take away freedom of religion, when they can build in another spot.. Bottom line.


It does though. 



> Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.


The government telling someone they can't practice there religion on property they own pretty much violates the whole "free exercise thereof" part. And banning a religion in one area sets a really dangerous precedent.


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## reDREDD (Oct 12, 2008)

Give peace a chance. Can we not forget what groups of people did in the past? Can we not give our fellow man to live his own life, instead of being punished for the sins of others? Many people did fucked up things in the past, but that is no reason to take it put on their descendants.

Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Atheist, Buddhist. Who cares. They're all basically the same. They all teach tolerance, love, peace, compassion to your brothers, and the love and worship of Jesus Christ.

So lets all join hands and sing Kumbaya.


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## Oda Nobunaga (Jun 12, 2006)

redeadening said:


> Give peace a chance. Can we not forget what groups of people did in the past? Can we not give our fellow man to live his own life, instead of being punished for the sins of others? Many people did fucked up things in the past, but that is no reason to take it put on their descendants.
> 
> Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Atheist, Buddhist. Who cares. They're all basically the same. They all teach tolerance, love, peace, compassion to your brothers, and the love and worship of Jesus Christ.
> 
> So lets all join hands and sing Kumbaya.


I didn't know Buddhism taught the worship of Jesus Christ.


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## reDREDD (Oct 12, 2008)

Khan WCWR. said:


> I didn't know Buddhism taught the worship of Jesus Christ.


Ofcourse they do. Jesus is awesome. He can walk on water, heal the sick, turn water into wine, he's Bob Backlund approved and spent his entire career as face without getting stale! And he manged to No-sell a crucifixion. Take that John Cena.

He's also so awesome that he also flies around the world and gives away presents on HIS birthday! How many people do you know do that?


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## MrMister (Mar 11, 2005)

Don't forget the driving out of demons. That put him over big time. The whole fishing thing was great too.


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## Panzer (May 31, 2007)

redeadening said:


> I dont see how 9/11 was justified and I actually live IN the region where the supposed suspects came from. People here dont like America, and for good reason, but I can honestly say not a single person I know can even stand the Taliban. Mainly since they are insane. Its pretty much universally agreed 9/11 was a BAD thing.
> 
> And as for the Mosque, which isnt even a mosque, I dont see how anyone can oppose it. Its a friggen YMCA! Its several blocks from the area. The area they're building it in isnt even that great! Its filled with stripclubs and liquor stores. Hardly sacred ground.
> 
> ...


If you began it with a "I learned something today." it would be perfect.

But seriously, QFT. The extremists would love it if we were intolerant as they are.

And a tidbit of interest is that the CIA trained Bin Laden back in the 80's which most likely gave him the skills and basic amount of knowledge to pull off the attack. So you can partly blame the American government but definitely don't blame the people. This is directed at no one in particular. Just thought I'd throw this out here.


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## T731 (Jul 19, 2010)

Ridiculous there are actually people that approve of this.


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## SaveMeCM (Feb 7, 2010)

TaylorFitz, see Panther's response. Also, the US has done enough to piss off the Muslim world. The victims of 9/11 were innocent, but America is not.



redeadening said:


> Give peace a chance. Can we not forget what groups of people did in the past? Can we not give our fellow man to live his own life, instead of being punished for the sins of others? Many people did fucked up things in the past, but that is no reason to take it put on their descendants.


Give peace a chance? And we're supposed to acheive peace by ignoring the problem?



> Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Atheist, Buddhist. Who cares. They're all basically the same. They all teach tolerance, love, peace, compassion to your brothers, and the love and worship of Jesus Christ.


Atheism doesn't teach any of those things, because atheism is not a religion.



> Christianity was just as bad as Islam in its heyday. Inquisitions, Crusades, the genocide of indigenous populations, and to a lesser extent, it was one of the justifications of Imperialism. It's incredibly tempting to say Christianity is just as bad, he's right, and it's also not difficult, because it's true, IMO. At least, it was back in the day.


Where are we living now though? Are we "back in the day", or are we in the present?


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## T731 (Jul 19, 2010)

redeadening said:


> Give peace a chance. Can we not forget what groups of people did in the past? Can we not give our fellow man to live his own life, instead of being punished for the sins of others? Many people did fucked up things in the past, but that is no reason to take it put on their descendants.
> 
> Christian, *Muslim*, Jewish, *Atheist, Buddhist*. Who cares. They're all basically the same. *They all teach* tolerance, love, peace, compassion to your brothers, and *the love and worship of Jesus Christ*.


Lolwut??? Be serious, Islam is about prophet Mohammed, Atheism isn't even a religion and buddhists... Dont know, nor care about their belief. But read your sources before you say dumb stuff.

Search further than '_different beliefs_' on google the next time.
And to come back to a lot of arguments 'forget what people did in the past,' I think 2001 isn't pretty far in the past compared to 600 years ago when catholicism was bad.

denmark Kurt Westergaard, holland Geert Wilders, germany Thilo Sarrazin, all can't go out for a walk without heavy protection because of what they openly said. And that is every day. In the past, at this moment and for the rest of their life, all because of the danger of stupid terrorists. Yeah that begs for forgiveness Wake up.


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## seancarleton77 (Jul 4, 2006)

T731 said:


> Search further than '_different beliefs_' on google the next time.
> And to come back to a lot of arguments 'forget what people did in the past,' I think 2001 isn't pretty far in the past compared to 600 years ago when catholicism was bad.


Catholicism hasn't done anything bad in 600 years? How about Priest molesting children and the Vatican being the biggest criminal organization in the entire world transferring the Priests to protect them covering it up and using billions of dollars in collection money for lawsuits. Also making up rules as they go on and telling people in the aids heavy, forced sex capital of the world the MOTHER FUCKING CONGO not to use condoms, because it's a sin!! Oh and their boss, the Pope, was a goddamn NAZI!!!!


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## reDREDD (Oct 12, 2008)

Sarcasm really does go over some people's heads doesnt it? :lmao

You know what the source of most of the world problem is? Hate, anger, discrimination, and ignorance. To criminalize an entire group of people loosely associated by religion is ridiculous. 

In the end of the day, people are people. Religion doesnt make you a better person or a worse person. The only thing that can do that is yourself.

And what the hell does 'Evil Islam' have to do with this thread? Did you even read this thread or did you just see the title and jump to a conclusion?


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## Klebold (Dec 6, 2009)

Hopefully this mosque does not get built.


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## seancarleton77 (Jul 4, 2006)

Klebold said:


> Hopefully this mosque does not get built.


Why do you say this? You do know the Community Center/Mosque really shouldn't be there because of the strip clubs and such that are already there. There is already a normal Mosque nearby, this place will not be just a Mosque though.


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## SaveMeCM (Feb 7, 2010)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LMoOV0JGEbY



seancarleton77 said:


> Why do you say this? You do know the Community Center/Mosque really shouldn't be there because of the strip clubs and such that are already..


What's wrong with strip clubs? Strip clubs are not immoral. Islam is.


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## Rawlin (Sep 28, 2008)

:lmao 

the degradation of women is not immoral?
friend, i love strip clubs just as much as the next man, but to say they aren't immoral is nuts.

morals is all objective anyway. if we're going to get in a debate about that it would never stop.


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## reDREDD (Oct 12, 2008)

SaveMeCM said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LMoOV0JGEbY
> 
> *
> What's wrong with strip clubs? Strip clubs are not immoral. Islam is.*


Hold up there pal. Your comments seem kinda extreme and hateful. Have you considered you might be offending people?


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## T731 (Jul 19, 2010)

seancarleton77 said:


> Catholicism hasn't done anything bad in 600 years? How about Priest molesting children and the Vatican being the biggest criminal organization in the entire world transferring the Priests to protect them covering it up and using billions of dollars in collection money for lawsuits. Also making up rules as they go on and telling people in the aids heavy, forced sex capital of the world the MOTHER FUCKING CONGO not to use condoms, because it's a sin!! Oh and their boss, the Pope, was a goddamn NAZI!!!!


All of those things are in the f*ing shadow of 9/11. And if that isnt enough, how about the not 6, but almost 1600 years of degradation of women, to a higher limit than strip clubs. And the condom thing is also oppressed by the islam.


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## reDREDD (Oct 12, 2008)

T731 said:


> All of those things are in the f*ing shadow of 9/11. And if that isnt enough, how about the not 6, but almost 1600 years of degradation of women, to a higher limit than strip clubs. And the condom thing is also oppressed by the islam.


Why do you insist on making up lies on a religion you do not fully understand?


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## FITZ (May 8, 2007)

T731 said:


> All of those things are in the f*ing shadow of 9/11. And if that isnt enough, how about the not 6, but almost 1600 years of degradation of women, to a higher limit than strip clubs. And the condom thing is also oppressed by the islam.


Pretty much every religion or culture has looked at women as the lesser sex. It's not like Islam in alone in treating women like shit throughout history. 

And Islam is one of the more tolerant religions when it comes to contraceptives. Like all religions they are against sex unless you are married but they don't appose contraceptives between a married couple. 

Your views on Islam are just ridiculous. You don't seem to have a clue about what you're talking about and you really just seem to try and find all these different ways in which Islam is so evil when compared to other religions. It's really not though. Just go and google the "5 Pillars of Islam" It's what Muslims of are supposed to base their lives around and you won't find anything evil about them. Unless praying, going on a pilgrimage, and believing in God are evil.


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## reDREDD (Oct 12, 2008)

TaylorFitz said:


> Pretty much every religion or culture has looked at women as the lesser sex. It's not like Islam in alone in treating women like shit throughout history.
> 
> And Islam is one of the more tolerant religions when it comes to contraceptives. Like all religions they are against sex unless you are married but they don't appose contraceptives between a married couple.
> 
> Your views on Islam are just ridiculous. You don't seem to have a clue about what you're talking about and you really just seem to try and find all these different ways in which Islam is so evil when compared to other religions. It's really not though. Just go and google the "5 Pillars of Islam" It's what Muslims of are supposed to base their lives around and you won't find anything evil about them. Unless praying, going on a pilgrimage, and believing in God are evil.


You show tolerance and understanding. A refreshing change of pace from the posters over the last few pages. Thank you


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## seancarleton77 (Jul 4, 2006)

*Top US commander: Burning Quran endangers troops*

By KIMBERLY DOZIER, Associated Press Writer Kimberly Dozier, Associated Press Writer

KABUL, Afghanistan – The top U.S. and NATO commander in Afghanistan warned Tuesday an American church's threat to burn copies of the Muslim holy book could endanger U.S. troops in the country and Americans worldwide.

Meanwhile, NATO reported the death of an American service member in an insurgent attack in southern Afghanistan on Tuesday.

The comments from Gen. David Petraeus followed a protest Monday by hundreds of Afghans over the plans by Gainesville, Florida-based Dove World Outreach Center — a small, evangelical Christian church that espouses anti-Islam philosophy — to burn copies of the Quran on church grounds to mark the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks on the United States that provoked the Afghan war.

"Images of the burning of a Quran would undoubtedly be used by extremists in Afghanistan — and around the world — to inflame public opinion and incite violence," Petraeus said in an e-mail to The Associated Press.

Muslims consider the Quran to be the word of God and insist it be treated with the utmost respect, along with any printed material containing its verses or the name of Allah or the Prophet Muhammad. Any intentional damage or show of disrespect to the Quran is deeply offensive.

In 2005, 15 people died and scores were wounded in riots in Afghanistan sparked by a story in Newsweek magazine alleging interrogators at the U.S. detention center in Guantanamo Bay placed copies of the Quran in washrooms and flushed one down the toilet to get inmates to talk. Newsweek later retracted the story.

At Monday's protest, several hundred Afghans rallied outside a Kabul mosque, burning American flags and an effigy of Dove World's pastor and chanting "death to America." Members of the crowd briefly pelted a passing U.S. military convoy with stones, but were ordered to stop by rally organizers.

Two days earlier, thousands of Indonesian Muslims rallied outside the U.S. Embassy in Jakarta and in five other cities to protest the church's plans.

Petraeus warned images of burning Qurans could be used to incite anti-American sentiment similar to the pictures of prisoner abuse at Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison.

"I am very concerned by the potential repercussions of the possible (Quran) burning. Even the rumour that it might take place has sparked demonstrations such as the one that took place in Kabul yesterday," Petraeus said in his message. "Were the actual burning to take place, the safety of our soldiers and civilians would be put in jeopardy and accomplishment of the mission would be made more difficult."

The U.S. Embassy in Kabul also issued a statement condemning the church's plans, saying Washington was "deeply concerned about deliberate attempts to offend members of religious or ethnic groups."

Dove World Outreach Center, which made headlines last year after distributing T-shirts that said "Islam is of the Devil," has been denied a permit to set a bonfire but has vowed to proceed with the burning. The congregation's website estimates it has about 50 members, but the church has leveraged the Internet with a Facebook page and blog devoted to its Quran-burning plans.

Church officials did not immediately return a call seeking comment.

The American's death brings to at least six the number of U.S. forces killed in Afghanistan this month, along with at least four other non-American members of the international coalition.

Engagements with insurgents are rising along with the addition of another 30,000 U.S. troops, bringing the total number of international forces in the country to more than 140,000.

At least 322 U.S. troops have died in Afghanistan so far this year, exceeding the previous annual record of 304 for all of 2009, according to an AP count.

Petraeus is asking for 2,000 more soldiers for the international force, NATO officials said Monday. It was unclear how many would be Americans.

Coalition officials said nearly half will be trainers for the rapidly expanding Afghan security forces and will include troops trained to neutralize roadside bombs that have been responsible for about 60 percent of the 2,000 allied deaths in the nearly nine-year war.

The officials, who spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not supposed to talk about the issue with media, said the NATO-led command had been asking for the troops even before Petraeus assumed command here in July.

Petraeus recently renewed that request with the NATO command in Brussels. The alliance has had trouble raising more troops for the war effort, with at least 450 training slots still unfilled after more than a year.

With casualties rising, the war has become deeply unpopular in many of NATO's 28 member countries, suggesting the additional forces will have to come from the United States.

Also Tuesday, authorities confirmed the ambush killing of a district chief by suspected insurgents in the northern province of Baghlan on Monday afternoon. Nahrin district chief Rahmad Sror Joshan Pool was on his way home after a memorial service for slain anti-Soviet guerrilla leader Ahmad Shah Massoud when rocket-propelled grenades hit his vehicle, setting it on fire, said provincial spokesman Mahmood Haqmal.

Pool's bodyguard was also killed in the attack, and one militant died and two were wounded in the ensuing fire fight with police, Haqmal said.

Five children were killed and five wounded in Yaya Khil district in the southern province of Paktika when an insurgent rocket fired at an Afghan army base hit a home Monday evening, provincial government spokesman Mokhlais Afghan said.

Kidnappers also seized two electoral workers and their two drivers in the western province of Ghor, according to deputy provincial police chief Ahmad Khan Bashir.

Insurgents have waged a campaign of violence and intimidation to prevent Afghans from voting, especially in rural areas, while some pre-election violence has also been blamed on rivalries among the candidates.

___ 

Don't worry about the planned Quran burning, I have my doubts about whether people in Gainesville can even light a match.


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## FITZ (May 8, 2007)

That's a pretty terrible thing to do. 

Nobody can stop them but it doesn't change the fact that those people are morons.


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## Toots Dalton (Feb 8, 2010)

> KABUL, Afghanistan – The top U.S. and NATO commander in Afghanistan warned Tuesday an American church's threat to burn copies of the Muslim holy book *could endanger U.S. troops in the country* and Americans worldwide.


I love this line, same line they used with the Wikileaks thing, like they're not in danger already???



> At Monday's protest, several hundred Afghans rallied outside a Kabul mosque, burning American flags and an effigy of Dove World's pastor and chanting "death to America." Members of the crowd briefly pelted a passing U.S. military convoy with stones, but were ordered to stop by rally organizers.


This I love too, nobody has a problem with them burning American flags?

TOLERANCE!!!


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## Toots Dalton (Feb 8, 2010)

I'm not Anti-Islam or anything, but today I watched about 2 hours worth of footage of Women being stoned to death.

So I'm not in the mood for showing them much love today.


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## What 3:16 (Jul 31, 2008)

Poor naked wretches, whereso'er you are,
That bide the pelting of this pitiless storm,
How shall your houseless heads and unfed sides,
Your loop'd and window'd raggedness, defend you
From seasons such as these?

Basically, we should ask the families of the deceased what they think.

I don't hate Islam but it hasn't matured as a religion yet. Most others in the world have.


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## Panzer (May 31, 2007)

I find the burning of the Quarans just as pointless as Islamic extremists burning American flags. And endangering our troops? They're already marked for death. There's really nothing more that can be done for them to be hated.


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## reDREDD (Oct 12, 2008)

I still believe the only any progress will be made in the world is by turning the other cheek, tolerating others, and giving peace a chance.

If you start fighting, bullying, antagonizing and destroying, you become just as bad as those you are taking a stand against. 



> Violence breeds violence, repression breeds retaliation, and only a cleansing of our whole society can remove this sickness from our souls. For when you teach a man to hate and to fear his brother, when you teach that he is a lesser man because of his color, or his beliefs or the policies that he pursues, when you teach that those who differ from you, threaten your freedom or your job or your home or your family, then you also learn to confront others not as fellow citizens, but as enemies.


Bobby Kennedy said that. And to this day I respect those words.


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## Y2J™ (Nov 13, 2009)

Toots Dalton said:


> I love this line, same line they used with the Wikileaks thing, like they're not in danger already???
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Being American, and Atheist, I can say without being bias that burning Qurans does not even come close to burning American flags. I think it's especially terrible that they're going to burn the Qurans on 9/11. I wish that these radical Christian motherfuckers would stop being such assholes to Muslims. If they want to put their troops in Afghanistan at more risk than they already are, fine. They're just going to be adding fuel to the fire if they do this. 

I used to stick up for America, but right now they're digging their own graves with all the intolerance they're showing. It's a shame for that percentage of Americans who actually use their brains.


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## SaveMeCM (Feb 7, 2010)

What a display of cowardice by Gen. Petraeus and Robert Gibbs. Cowering in the face of protests from Muslim extremists overseas. Yet again Islam is getting special treatment, like when drawings depicting the prophet Muhammad have been censored. It's funny how the the US government is more worried about not offending the millions of extremist Muslims overseas than not offending those whose family members were killed by the extremists.

I think burning any book is stupid, and I'd rather everyone read the Quran and got educated on Islam, but I don't see why anyone should care about what this church is doing. Let the Christians have their fun.


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## SaveMeCM (Feb 7, 2010)

I can't believe a fundie pastor is making more sense than the Democratic government right now. 

Pastor Terry Jones - _"We think it's time to turn the tables, and instead of possibly blaming us for what could happen, we put the blame where it belongs — on the people who would do it," he said. "And maybe instead of addressing us, we should address radical Islam and send a very clear warning that they are not to retaliate in any form."_


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## FITZ (May 8, 2007)

What 3:16 said:


> Poor naked wretches, whereso'er you are,
> That bide the pelting of this pitiless storm,
> How shall your houseless heads and unfed sides,
> Your loop'd and window'd raggedness, defend you
> ...


And lets say the families don't want the mosque built, how does the government stop them from building it? 

That's the thing that I really don't understand about the opposition to building the mosque. I can't think of any way that the government could stop them.


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## JuviJuiceIsLoose (Mar 27, 2009)

TaylorFitz said:


> And lets say the families don't want the mosque built, how does the government stop them from building it?
> 
> That's the thing that I really don't understand about the opposition to building the mosque. I can't think of any way that the government could stop them.


They can't, unless they come up with some hokey building code violation.

In Tennesse, the building of a real Mosque. Not just a community center like the one that's being proposed in New York. The plans for it were rejected because of "parking issues".

http://www.courier-journal.com/arti...4/Somalis-want-new-mosque-in-Western-Kentucky


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## Y2J™ (Nov 13, 2009)

TaylorFitz said:


> And lets say the families don't want the mosque built, how does the government stop them from building it?
> 
> That's the thing that I really don't understand about the opposition to building the mosque. I can't think of any way that the government could stop them.


If it was just a mosque, there might have been a chance for the people against it. Seeing as it is a community centre, I really don't see how, or why, they would stop them from building it.


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## seancarleton77 (Jul 4, 2006)

Y2J™;8820123 said:


> If it was just a mosque, there might have been a chance for the people against it. Seeing as it is a community centre, I really don't see how, or why, they would stop them from building it.


Because community centres often help troubled youth and keep kids off the street. And what better way to help angry Muslim youth then to close down the community centre and mosque so they can do something better, like stealing car stereos or joining a violent gang so they can belong, and make some money.


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## Toots Dalton (Feb 8, 2010)

Didn't want to start a new thread, but just spent an hour with some 9/11 Truthers.

These people are MENTAL.

They reckon all this is just another distraction.


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## Panzer (May 31, 2007)

Toots Dalton said:


> Didn't want to start a new thread, but just spent an hour with some 9/11 Truthers.
> 
> These people are MENTAL.
> 
> They reckon all this is just another distraction.


Ditto. I'd love for any Truthers to come over here. I'm raring to go.


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## scrilla (Jan 18, 2008)

This is fucking America. You have the freedom to practice whatever religion you want and build a fucking church or whatever the fuck you want to on your property, assuming there isn't some zoning/safety code violations. People need to give up on that shit. If a Christian murders me tomorrow is my family going to demand all churches within a mile are closed down?

I don't fucking think so. It's just another example of racial profiling. I've met dozens of Muslims in my life, never met a terrorist, mostly nice people. People need to get the fuck over it. Should we ban Japanese people from Hawaii because of Pearl Harbor too? Or Christians from Oklahoma City because some dude blew up a building?

Please there was a MOSQUE in the WTC not to mention over 50 muslims died in the terrorist attack.


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## truk83 (Jul 22, 2009)

You are right this is America. However, we don't get to practice whatever religion we want here. Certain religious practices including those found in Christianity are against the law even today, but just aren't enforced. Others outside of the main faith here in America have practices that require certain "illegal" drugs, so in essence no you don't have that right to believe in what you want to believe. Isn't that just horrible? You were close though.

See, I have come to accept the fact that even in America we don't have the rights we think we do. There have been to many things to suggest otherwise. For example January 21st of this year the Supreme Court just ruled that Corporations will now have the same basic rights as an individual. America is dying, and I wish I would have been born in the 18th century during many of the public uprisings. A time when people had balls to fight for what they wanted from their superiors in the government.

Sadly, the government was growing out of control even back then, and the Civil War somewhat proved that, and add Industrialization in the mix as well. Our government just had to get the people here to fight off the British, and set up the "apparent" revolution against this tyrant of a nation in England. However dare to rise against this machine today, and your either a liberal, or anti-american. I love this country, but I hate it's history, and future that my fellow man created.


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