# Vader blasts Ricochet/Ospreay



## CretinHop138 (Sep 9, 2015)

http://wrestlinginc.com/wi/news/201...hampion-criticizes-ricochet-and-will-ospreay/

All due respect to Ricochet/Ospreay

I very much agree with Vader. His stuff vs Antonio Inoki was legendary.

v This clip below is art and storytelling at his finest.


----------



## TheAverageMuta (Sep 4, 2015)

Different strokes for different folks.

Plus how can you not love Ospreay shouting "Pip pip cheerio motherfucker!" as he lands a flying forearm on Ricochet.


----------



## HOJO (Feb 25, 2012)

That breeze of wind that hit Ricochet from that goofy 360 *something* Ospreay hit on him tho :duck


----------



## NakNak (Feb 9, 2015)

I hate stuff like Ricochet/Ospreay (in fact, I don't like Ospreay...but I like Ricochet)

But, like someone said before me, different strokes for different folks.

KUSHIDA/O'Reilly is my type of shit


----------



## TheAverageMuta (Sep 4, 2015)

LOL


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/736818764080140288


----------



## CretinHop138 (Sep 9, 2015)

See why do that? It just shows your butthurt, just carry on with what you did last time against Ricochet and ignore any criticism. Vader has done more in this business than you kiddo and a New Japan legend I might add.


----------



## ShadowSucks92 (Mar 7, 2015)

Fans were entertained by it and were chanting for 1 more match between the two,isn't that the important thing? People have different tastes, I loved the match but I can respect your opinion if you didn't (unless you just bashed it because of a 10 second gif)


----------



## ManiacMichaelMyers (Oct 23, 2009)

Don't know who these two dorks are and why one is doing a pathetic version of a Vader Bomb but they obviously need to shut their damn mouths and know their damn role. 

Vader > dorks.


----------



## TheGeneticFreak (Feb 27, 2016)

I agree with Vader if I wanted to see just flippy shit I would watch Cirque du Soleil.


----------



## Stetho (Aug 3, 2015)

_This is NOT directed at any particular guy on this thread, but just my reaction to everything we heard since the match._

Please watch the match before you say stupid shit.

Everyone saying this is just flips with no logics just didn't. There's submissions, absolutely sicks kicks and elbows and slows sequences. Don't try to say there's no storytelling neither. It starts like an exhibition of moves cause that's exactly the point. Those 2 guys are trying to prove they're the best Jr in New Japan, in front of the very champion. Then comes the hits, Ospreay gets mad and it turns into a stiffness contest. And there's still Ospreay teasing the Rainmaker, cuz you know, he's Okada protegee (nay, there's definitely no storyline in this... ffs). It continues with the post-match tension, but once again, the vast majority of people saying otherwise didn't watch it.

It's amazing to see random people trying to explain this is not puroresu when the japanese crowd itself is finding it fantastic. I can't help but feel like some guys are just looking for excuses to not admit how cool NJPW and BOSJ are. Give the exact same match on NXT and nobody complains.

This was awesome. A great display of athletism with a great story of ego. My only problem is that Will is talking too much.


----------



## The Nuke (Mar 7, 2016)

I'm glad fans were entertained by it. Fans were entertained by the Attitude era, and look at the bad effects that had on Wrestling. 

I enjoyed "WATCHING" that match. That however is not Wrestling to me. Vader is Right, IMO. I also wouldn't say Vader blast Ricochet and Ospreay, he's just giving his opinion.

The match was 90% spots. Both of them no sold for each other the entire time pretty much. So much so that I was surprised the match ended when it did. Nothing lead you to believe it was coming to an end. The match was just two guys going, "LOOK AT ALL the COOL SHIT WE CAN DO."

It's not Wrestling to me, sorry. I'm usually very forgiving about spot fest, or guys not selling, but this was the PINNACLE of going way to far.


----------



## Stetho (Aug 3, 2015)

The Nuke said:


> The match was 90% spots.


No, I don't think you really watched it.


----------



## Arkham258 (Jan 30, 2015)

Can we get Vader his walker? He needs to go find his buddy Jim Cornette so they can yell at the kids to get off their lawn


----------



## CretinHop138 (Sep 9, 2015)

Arkham258 said:


> Can we get Vader his walker? He needs to go find his buddy Jim Cornette so they can yell at the kids to get off their lawn


Not sure why you're slagging off Vader, the storytelling in Lucha Underground (he's a fan of it) is his kind of thing.


----------



## ErickRowan_Fan (Feb 8, 2014)

It was a decent match, tons of high-flying which you would expect when two of the most renowned high-flying wrestlers meet each other. The crowd got exactly what they paid for. They didn't want to see a slugging match, they didn't want to see a chain wrestling match, they wanted to see a match-up between two guys who defy gravity and they got it.

Vader was 400 pounds, and even he was doing moonsaults. He didn't need to do it, it didn't make any sense as far as ring psychology goes, but it was spectacular. Ricochet and Ospreay are less than 200 pounds, they have to do a lot more than moonsaults in order to get noticed.

I love Vader, but I definitely understand why Ospreay and Ricochet put on the kind of a match they did. That's what the people wanted to see. I'm not bothered as long as Ricochet and Ospreay don't work the same kind of match against everybody else. This was more like two guys putting their egos on the line about which wrestler can pull off the craziest moves, so it made sense in that context, even though it didn't resemble a "fight".


----------



## Arkham258 (Jan 30, 2015)

CretinHop138 said:


> Not sure why you're slagging off Vader, the storytelling in Lucha Underground (he's a fan of it) is his kind of thing.


I'm slagging off Vader because there's many different ways to have a great wrestling match and entertain a crowd, and I'm sick of old farts like him and Cornette thinking their way is the only way

One of the reasons I like Lucha Underground so much is because of the variety of wrestling matches they have. Some are spot fests, some have technical wrestling, and some have great psychology and story telling. At the end of the day if the crowd is happy then you've done your job


----------



## The Nuke (Mar 7, 2016)

Stetho said:


> No, I don't think you really watched it.


Oh yes I watched it. Even most of the kicks and punches were spots.

The Power Ranger flip sequence. The submissions. The kick exchanges. The flippy super move that I just can't figure how that actually works. The suplex sequence. The outside counters.

Just because they put on a few submissions and a few elbow exchanges doesn't mean that most of that match wasn't spots.


----------



## CretinHop138 (Sep 9, 2015)

Arkham258 said:


> I'm slagging off Vader because there's many different ways to have a great wrestling match and entertain a crowd, and I'm sick of old farts like him and Cornette thinking their way is the only way
> 
> One of the reasons I like Lucha Underground so much is because of the variety of wrestling matches they have. Some are spot fests, some have technical wrestling, and some have great psychology and story telling. At the end of the day if the crowd is happy then you've done your job


What Vader is saying, he only did one of everything. NXT is a prime example of this as well, they don't need to do 200 flips and somersaults to get a pop. Its like a heel doing cool moves. Why would a heel do a 450 splash when people will then cheer the heel for doing an awesome move?

Inoki/Vader, Sting/Vader, Cactus Jack/Vader, Hogan/Warrior Ultimo Dragon/Liger Muta/Liger all stood the test of time. This will be just disaposable. He has NO PROBLEM with doing cool stuff but it has to make sense, it did not in this match.


----------



## The Nuke (Mar 7, 2016)

Arkham258 said:


> I'm slagging off Vader because there's many different ways to have a great wrestling match and entertain a crowd, and I'm sick of old farts like him and Cornette thinking their way is the only way
> 
> One of the reasons I like Lucha Underground so much is because of the variety of wrestling matches they have. Some are spot fests, some have technical wrestling, and some have great psychology and story telling. At the end of the day if the crowd is happy then you've done your job


One thing all Wrestling matches should have is for the Wrestlers to suspend you're disbelief. Neither Ricochet or Ospreay did that in that match.

That was something you'd see more in a movie.

That's Cornettes argument. Doing cool shit is one thing, but it should make sense. It should look real to the crowd.

I'm glad people like it, but that doesn't mean what they're seeing is how it should be.


----------



## Joshi Judas (Jul 12, 2013)

Agreed with Vader. Doesn't mean I don't like modern wrestling, I do. But Ricochet/Ospreay was not for me. I'd rather watch Vader killing jobbers and stiffing the fuck out of people.


Btw, it'd be better if these guys just ignored criticisms and did their thing. Tagging several others in your tweet to get likes or throwing shade at them in your matches makes you look like such a geek. Do what you think works, that's it.


----------



## The Nuke (Mar 7, 2016)

ErickRowan_Fan said:


> It was a decent match, tons of high-flying which you would expect when two of the most renowned high-flying wrestlers meet each other. The crowd got exactly what they paid for. They didn't want to see a slugging match, they didn't want to see a chain wrestling match, they wanted to see a match-up between two guys who defy gravity and they got it.
> 
> Vader was 400 pounds, and even he was doing moonsaults. He didn't need to do it, it didn't make any sense as far as ring psychology goes, but it was spectacular. Ricochet and Ospreay are less than 200 pounds, they have to do a lot more than moonsaults in order to get noticed.
> 
> I love Vader, but I definitely understand why Ospreay and Ricochet put on the kind of a match they did. That's what the people wanted to see. I'm not bothered as long as Ricochet and Ospreay don't work the same kind of match against everybody else. This was more like two guys putting their egos on the line about which wrestler can pull off the craziest moves, so it made sense in that context, even though it didn't resemble a "fight".


So as long as it looks cool, it's okay for Wrestlers to no sell each other?

At some point it needs to be accepted that what Wrestlers do is put on a "Fake" physical competition designed to look real and suspend disbelief.

Okada, AJ(a flippy guy himself), Nakamura, and Tanahashi are considered the best in the world for a reason. You could say all of them have slightly different styles, but all of them also know that selling, pyschology, logic, etc should always matter in Wrestling.


----------



## Blommen (May 11, 2012)

The Nuke said:


> One thing all Wrestling matches should have is for the Wrestlers to suspend you're disbelief. Neither Ricochet or Ospreay did that in that match.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Why should it look real? Wrestler never looks real almost regardless of who is s wrestling, especially within the context of it being a match between ricochet and Ospreay and everyone knows was that it is fake. Why do people show up then they know it's fake? They show up to be entertained, and that what Rico and will did.

There was absolutely no reason for them to suspend the crowds disbelief, because the crowd already did that and accepted the surrealism of the match by the end of the first sequence. Every single person knew what that match was going to be and everyone know it was fake as fuck. Guess what, no one fucking cared, and they were utterly and completely engrossed in the action regardless and gave the guys the best reaction In the tournament by a fucking mile.


----------



## Arkham258 (Jan 30, 2015)

The Nuke said:


> One thing all Wrestling matches should have is for the Wrestlers to suspend you're disbelief. Neither Ricochet or Ospreay did that in that match.
> 
> That was something you'd see more in a movie.
> 
> ...


Nothing about wrestling is realistic and never has been, so I don't care. A fucking irish whip isn't even realistic. Wrestling is NOT mixed martial arts or boxing it's FUCKING PRO WRESTLING. It's not even as realistic as amateur wrestling.

You guys need to wake up and stop being delusional. Nobody buys into wrestling as something realistic


----------



## Stetho (Aug 3, 2015)

The Nuke said:


> Oh yes I watched it. Even most of the kicks and punches were spots.
> 
> The Power Ranger flip sequence. The submissions. The kick exchanges. The flippy super move that I just can't figure how that actually works. The suplex sequence. The outside counters.
> 
> Just because they put on a few submissions and a few elbow exchanges doesn't mean that most of that match wasn't spots.


So the question is : What is NOT a spot to you at this point ?...



The Nuke said:


> Okada, AJ(a flippy guy himself), Nakamura, and Tanahashi are considered the best in the world for a reason. You could say all of them have slightly different styles, but all of them also know that selling, pyschology, logic, etc should always matter in Wrestling.


Yeah, guys praised by the exact same crowd that loved this match...



ErickRowan_Fan said:


> This was more like two guys putting their egos on the line about which wrestler can pull off the craziest moves, so it made sense in that context, even though it didn't resemble a "fight".


This.


----------



## ErickRowan_Fan (Feb 8, 2014)

The Nuke said:


> So as long as it looks cool, it's okay for Wrestlers to no sell each other?
> 
> At some point it needs to be accepted that what Wrestlers do is put on a "Fake" physical competition designed to look real and suspend disbelief.
> 
> Okada, AJ(a flippy guy himself), Nakamura, and Tanahashi are considered the best in the world for a reason. You could say all of them have slightly different styles, but all of them also know that selling, pyschology, logic, etc should always matter in Wrestling.


The point is that the high-flying made sense in the context of that match, an ego contest between two high-flying wrestlers. It's the same as when you see two boxers put their gloves down, invite the other guy to hit them and brawl it out. It doesn't make sense as far as winning the fight, but it's an ego contest. Ricochet and Ospreay set aside the aspect of "winning" in order to one up each other with their high flying moves.

I forgive them for the no-selling because Ricochet has never been a good seller, probably never will be, and Ospreay is still young (remember AJ at 23, wasn't much of a seller either). Not everybody sells good, that's why we respect the ones that do.

I'm not saying it was a great match, both still have their flaws which are highlighted when they are put up against each other, but I don't blame them for working that kind of a match. That's what they get paid for.


----------



## TheAverageMuta (Sep 4, 2015)

It's ok to like/not like something. Maybe it just isn't for you?


----------



## Well Well Well (Oct 22, 2015)

All these not threatening looking, 180 pound guys flipping around the ring like it's Olympic diving isn't wrestling. Those types of matches are good for 1 thing, instantaneous "ooh, look at that" type of viewing. It'll only appeal to a tiny subset of (what used to be) the wrestling audience, hence why evolve and PWG draws like 400 people and proper matches draw (or drew) tens of thousands.


----------



## Blommen (May 11, 2012)

ErickRowan_Fan said:


> The point is that the high-flying made sense in the context of that match, an ego contest between two high-flying wrestlers. It's the same as when you see two boxers put their gloves down, invite the other guy to hit them and brawl it out. It doesn't make sense as far as winning the fight, but it's an ego contest. Ricochet and Ospreay set aside the aspect of "winning" in order to one up each other with their high flying moves.
> 
> 
> 
> I forgive them for the no-selling because Ricochet has never been a good seller, probably never will be, and Ospreay is still young (remember AJ at 23, wasn't much of a seller either). Not everybody sells good, that's why we respect the ones that do.




I completely agree, and also people should remember that the point of wrestling isn't to be realistic or appear realistic. The point is to make the crowd invested in the characters and the action taking place in the ring. Psychology, selling and realism are absolutely methods by which you can achieve this, but in no way are they the only ones, hence why I think it's ridiculous to proclaim that some thing do or don't belong in a wrestling match.


----------



## Stetho (Aug 3, 2015)

Well Well Well said:


> All these not threatening looking, 180 pound guys flipping around the ring like it's Olympic diving isn't wrestling. Those types of matches are good for 1 thing, instantaneous "ooh, look at that" type of viewing. It'll only appeal to a tiny subset of (what used to be) the wrestling audience, hence why evolve and PWG draws like 400 people and proper matches draw (or drew) tens of thousands.


Spot the guy coming to give his opinion on something he doesn't barely know.


----------



## Arkham258 (Jan 30, 2015)

I watch wrestling the way I watch something like The Raid 2. I don't care about realism, just show me some cool shit. It I wanted realism I wouldn't watch wrestling. I would just watching UFC and boxing exclusively. I don't get this "wrestling has to be real" mindset.


----------



## ErickRowan_Fan (Feb 8, 2014)

Ospreay is lucky though that he wasn't brought up in another era of Japanese wrestling. He would've probably gotten this treatment for disrespecting Vader:


----------



## Cipher (Mar 27, 2016)

Disagree with Vader? Fine. But some of this disrespect I've seen him getting is just ridiculous. Vader is one of the most successful and greatest gaijins ever. He is one of the fist WCW and IWGP Champions. He will be remembered in Japan 50+ years from now, while I doubt any gaijin there now will. Know why? Because when Vader around wrestling was huge in Japan and Vader was insanely popular. 

AJPW is basically an indy. NOAH is just barely getting by. I'm sure you've seen that depressing photo Enuhito posted. New Japan hasn't ever fully recovered from Inoki's destruction, and hell, they haven't sold out the Dome since...01 I believe. 

So, good on Ospreay and Ricochet for impressing a fraction of the people someone like Vader used too.

Vader is allowed to have his opinion and his opinion holds a hell of a lot more weight than some guy behind a keyboard. The IWC, and even the wrestlers themselves, acting like children every time something negative about them is said is just embarrassing.

As for me? I didn't like the match at all. What they did was physically impressive, but that style of wrestling is just not something I enjoy. People keep saying wrestling is "evolving" but wrestling is as dead now as it was from 1993-1995. Acting like it's not is just factually incorrect. Only difference now is that the Internet is more readily available and made things easier to watch.


----------



## Blommen (May 11, 2012)

Cipher said:


> Disagree with Vader? Fine. But some of this disrespect I've seen him getting is just ridiculous. Vader is one of the most successful and greatest gaijins ever. He is one of the fist WCW and IWGP Champions. He will be remembered in Japan 50+ years from now, while I doubt any gaijin there will. Know why? Because when Vader around wrestling was huge in Japan and Vader was insanely popular.
> 
> AJPW is basically an indy. NOAH is just barely getting by. I'm sure you've seen that depressing photo Enuhito posted. New Japan hasn't ever fully recovered from Inoki's destruction, and hell, they haven't sold out the Dome since...01 I believe.
> 
> ...



I don't see anyone here disrespecting Vader more than he discredited ricochet and Ospreay with his initial. No one is saying you aren't entitled to your opinion being that the match was bad either, people are more protesting the notion that one single person can make claims about what should or shouldn't be happening in a wrestling ring.

I think you writing off the wrestlers presenting their point of view as acting like children is pretty disengenuous as well, considering the fact that they didn't slack off Vader in the least. They simply presented a more open minded perspective on what wrestling is/isn't or should/shouldn't be. 

I would also like you to Define dead to me. What do you mean when you say that wrestling is dead?


----------



## Arkham258 (Jan 30, 2015)

Cipher said:


> Disagree with Vader? Fine. But some of this disrespect I've seen him getting is just ridiculous. Vader is one of the most successful and greatest gaijins ever. He is one of the fist WCW and IWGP Champions. He will be remembered in Japan 50+ years from now, while I doubt any gaijin there now will. Know why? Because when Vader around wrestling was huge in Japan and Vader was insanely popular.


Yeah, so what? Who gives a shit? Vince McMahon is the most successful man in pro wrestling, and yet almost everyone universally agrees that everything he does these days are the actions of an idiot

What you've done doesn't mean jack. Wrong is wrong no matter who you are. If a guy who is in Mensa and has the highest IQ in the world tells me the earth isn't round, I'm still gonna call him an idiot.


----------



## Cipher (Mar 27, 2016)

Blommen said:


> I don't see anyone here disrespecting Vader more than he discredited ricochet and Ospreay with his initial. No one is saying you aren't entitled to your opinion being that the match was bad either, people are more protesting the notion that one single person can make claims about what should or shouldn't be happening in a wrestling ring.
> 
> I think you writing off the wrestlers presenting their point of view as acting like children is pretty disengenuous as well, considering the fact that they didn't slack off Vader in the least. They simply presented a more open minded perspective on what wrestling is/isn't or should/shouldn't be.
> 
> I would also like you to Define dead to me. What do you mean when you say that wrestling is dead?


You haven't noticed the Bucks acting like total marks in the past? Ospreay doing a Vader Bomb? This new group of wrestlers has been very sensitive of criticism in the past from Cornette when they should just act like men and ignore it.

I think it's incredibly silly that so many people are freaking out over Vader's opinion. So he didn't like the match. So what? He's one of the all time greats, and his opinion should be valued more than someone like Nick Jackson or Ricochet as he's earned that right. 

Wrestling is dead at the moment. It's not relevant in the mainstream and it's not drawing a fraction of what it used too. Just look at the number's Meltzer posts or hell, just look at the crowds and ratings.

And before anyone cites "But the 100,000 at WM!" Those were fans from all over the world travelling to see the Christmas of wrestling. It wasn't hard to do.

The only difference between now and the early 90's is the Internet. It has made it available to watch whatever you want whenever and the ability for independent wrestlers to build up more of a fanbase. It's given something as small as ROH the ability to broadcast PPVs even though hardly anyone buys them.



Arkham258 said:


> Yeah, so what? Who gives a shit? Vince McMahon is the most successful man in pro wrestling, and yet almost everyone universally agrees that everything he does these days are the actions of an idiot
> 
> What you've done doesn't mean jack. Wrong is wrong no matter who you are. If a guy who is in Mensa and has the highest IQ in the world tells me the earth isn't round, I'm still gonna call him an idiot.


You're obviously a biased Ricochet fan, so nothing I say to you is worth the effort. The Vince McMahon the Internet has built up is just a Boogeyman of heresy. We do not know all of the details it takes to run a company as huge as WWE even though I agree it's been shit for years. And you couldn't be more wrong about the "What you done doesn't mean jack" thing, but eh.


----------



## CretinHop138 (Sep 9, 2015)

All the match got was a pop and a bit of praise on the internet. But it didn't mean anything or make any sense therefore a disaposable match. Will Ospreay should reign it in and behave himself especially when it comes to guys like Vader who's a legend especially in Japan.

People like the Young Bucks or whatever are very sensitive to criticism just as much as a Lucha Underground fan or a TNA fan. You don't disrespect vets in the business who paved the way for you. i.e Vader and Inoki drew more in Japan than what the likes of the Bucks/Bullet Club could only dream of (New Japan has never recovered since the horrendous final year under Inoki to the point he left and did very bad damage, Bulelt Club drew but nothing like what Vader/Inoki did)


----------



## Oneiros (Feb 16, 2014)

Ricochet pretty much nailed it with his response. In his words, ''People don't understand that professional wrestling is an art. And much like any art there are endless ways to express it.''

Why do some people feel so entitled as to think things can be done only the way they like? Not that I care about it, but it also doesn't look good on Vader to diminish 2 of the best high flyers in the world by saying high school gymnasts could do their job.


----------



## CretinHop138 (Sep 9, 2015)

AZTECA said:


> Ricochet pretty much nailed it with his response. In his words, ''People don't understand that professional wrestling is an art. And much like any art there are endless ways to express it.''
> 
> Why do some people feel so entitled as to think things can be done only the way they like? Not that I care about it, but it also doesn't look good on Vader to diminish 2 of the best high flyers in the world by saying high school gymnasts could do their job.


Vader doesn't mind the cool stuff, but when its done in a disposable manner to generate a pop and a little praise online and not mean anything to look back on in 15/20 years from now, then he's right.

Its nothing to do with how you wrestle.


----------



## Oneiros (Feb 16, 2014)

CretinHop138 said:


> Will Ospreay should reign it in and behave himself especially when it comes to guys like Vader who's a legend especially in Japan.
> 
> You don't disrespect vets in the business who paved the way for you. i.e Vader and Inoki drew more in Japan than what the likes of the Bucks/Bullet Club could only dream of


Well, fuck that way of thinking. Past accomplishments don't mean a thing when it comes to someone being right or wrong. 

It's okay for Vader to say that high school gymnasts could do what Ricochet and Ospreay did, but it isn't okay for them to respond or joke about it? Kinda ridiculous to me.



CretinHop138 said:


> Vader doesn't mind the cool stuff, but when its done in a disposable manner to generate a pop and a little praise online and not mean anything to look back on in 15/20 years from now, then he's right.
> 
> Its nothing to do with how you wrestle.


Vader has all the right to like and dislike whatever style he wants. What he shouldn't do is diminish the wrestlers just because he doesn't like their style. 

And it is about how they wrestle imo, people that know Ricochet and Ospreay know perfectly well that both know how to work a match, and also know how to be more than spot monkeys. I'm sure that by the point their careers end, they will have a couple of matches that people will look back on.


----------



## SHIRLEY (Jun 9, 2009)




----------



## Old School Icons (Jun 7, 2012)

I watched the match given the attention of this thread

Thought it was excellent. 

That's without really knowing anything about either man

Vader was a great of his time though and I can see some logic to his opinion. Don't disrespect him for that.


----------



## Sephiroth (May 27, 2006)

MOTYC so far. Fuck the haters.


----------



## El Dandy (Oct 2, 2007)

If it's supposed to be just about entertainment, why do the Ricochet's and Young Bucks of the world care who says what about their shit sucking? They act like babies and constantly go to twitter to try to silence critics... but why not just be easy about it? Afterall, it's all a work and is just supposed to be about entertainment, right? Why do they take it so serious that the 1980's guys take it so serious?

Will Ospreay doing Vader's move? The butthurt is real lel. Been in Japan for 2 months and mocking a legend in Japan? Not a good look to have, young Will.

In general, flippy fans and flippy wretslers are the dirt worst with their severe inferiority complex.


----------



## The Masked One (Aug 29, 2015)

Dear Vader, don't be a hater
Here's a tissue for your issue


----------



## The Nuke (Mar 7, 2016)

Arkham258 said:


> Nothing about wrestling is realistic and never has been, so I don't care. A fucking irish whip isn't even realistic. Wrestling is NOT mixed martial arts or boxing it's FUCKING PRO WRESTLING. It's not even as realistic as amateur wrestling.
> 
> You guys need to wake up and stop being delusional. Nobody buys into wrestling as something realistic


Really? Before Vince broke down that wall a good many people thought it was real. A lot of the guys in Japan make it look real.

People not buying into the realism is one reason why Wrestling is where it is today.

No shit its fake. The idea should be to suspend the disbelief even when you know it's fake. This isn't a new idea. Austin, Hart, Michaels, and nameless others have criticized this aspect of todays Wrestling.

When we have fans not caring about the realism, when we have the perception of fans saying that making it look genuine doesn't matter, then that is a good definition of why people think Wrestling is dieing.

All that's left is spectacle, and it makes it pretty clear why it's hard for a majority of people to get into Pro-Wrestling compared to the old days. I find it disrespectful to write off the realism when countless guys from very beginning went out of there where to make it so. That was their *art form.*


----------



## Blommen (May 11, 2012)

Cipher said:


> You haven't noticed the Bucks acting like total marks in the past? Ospreay doing a Vader Bomb? This new group of wrestlers has been very sensitive of criticism in the past from Cornette when they should just act like men and ignore it.


This literally has nothing to do with any of what I wrote. I never even mentioned the bucks or Ospreay in my post, and what does Jim Cornette have to do with anything?



> I think it's incredibly silly that so many people are freaking out over Vader's opinion. So he didn't like the match. So what? He's one of the all time greats, and his opinion should be valued more than someone like Nick Jackson or Ricochet as he's earned that right.


Who is freaking out? Ricochet? He didn't freak out all if you ask me, he merely presented a different and more all encompassing viewpoint on wrestling. He never claimed that Vader was wrong in not liking the match, he simply disagreed with the notion that someone can set an arbitrary set of rules dictating what is and isn't wrestling.



> Wrestling is dead at the moment. It's not relevant in the mainstream and it's not drawing a fraction of what it used too. Just look at the number's Meltzer posts or hell, just look at the crowds and ratings.
> 
> And before anyone cites "But the 100,000 at WM!" Those were fans from all over the world travelling to see the Christmas of wrestling. It wasn't hard to do.


But all you are talking about here is based on wrestling being mainstream. Does wrestling need to make tons of money to be good?is the proper way to evaluate the health an art form to look at how much revenue they generate? I would personally argue that it isn't. Quality and financial success are not codependent at all, which isn't to say that they are mutually exclusive either, but to pronounce the art form of wrestling dead based on monetary gains seems incredibly one dimensional to me.



> The only difference between now and the early 90's is the Internet. It has made it available to watch whatever you want whenever and the ability for independent wrestlers to build up more of a fanbase. It's given something as small as ROH the ability to broadcast PPVs even though hardly anyone buys them.


I would say that this is emblematic of what one could consider to be wrestling season absolute biggest strength today and something that should definitely be celebrated. The sheer variety of wrestling that is available to people nowadays has surely divided the community but that's just because people don't have to watch the same thing any more. Wrestling today is so diverse in its artistic expression and there is pretty much something for anyone out there, that you don't have to watch wwe if you don't want to, You don't have to watch Puro if you don't want to, you don't have to watch Lucia underground if you don't want to, but the choice is there for you. Wrestling can be so many different things nowadays and I personally think that that is absolutely a positive evolution of the art form, and not simply something that should be dismissed simply because someone doesn't sell out the Tokyo dome.


----------



## ArnDaddy (Jan 30, 2012)

I loved the match, thought it was great. 

I was a big Vader fan growing up, maybe this isn't his cup of tea, but to me wrestling should be entertainment and this was very enjoyable to watch. Crowd was into it as well.


----------



## Funaki7 (Jan 15, 2011)

I love high flying. I'm not specifically into just spot-fest stuff (most of Lucha Underground) and I tend to phase out and stop being amazed. I watched the highlights of Rico and Will, was amazed.

People overrated this whole "psychology" thing imo. A good match is a good match. Wrestling is simple, make loves look realistic, sell the moves and interact with the crowd. The booking of the match is a different matter but I just mean as wrestlers' jobs. I don't get this whole psychology angle. I'd watch Rico Vs Will over every Vader match ever, and I like Vader, but he can't perform as an athlete like these men can.


----------



## Desecrated (Feb 4, 2009)

Funaki7 said:


> I love high flying. I'm not specifically into just spot-fest stuff (most of Lucha Underground) and I tend to phase out and stop being amazed. I watched the highlights of Rico and Will, was amazed.
> 
> People overrated this whole "psychology" thing imo. A good match is a good match. Wrestling is simple, make loves look realistic, sell the moves and interact with the crowd. The booking of the match is a different matter but I just mean as wrestlers' jobs. I don't get this whole psychology angle. I'd watch Rico Vs Will over every Vader match ever, and I like Vader, but he can't perform as an athlete like these men can.


My interpretation of psychology is that it's "how real you can make wrestling look". And one of the aspects of real, live competition (look to boxing, MMA, any sport) is to win. And that is what Vader has criticised about this match. It's art rather than pro-wrestling. Sometimes it will blur the lines to deliver comedy or athleticism. The problem is this match has come out to be 100% of art/athleticism and 0% of what professional wrestling "was"/"is". And that will get big critics from some people.


----------



## richyque (Feb 12, 2007)

That match was an embarrassment to be called wrestling, it was more like choreographed ballerina and gymnastics.


----------



## Blommen (May 11, 2012)

Desecrated said:


> My interpretation of psychology is that it's "how real you can make wrestling look". And one of the aspects of real, live competition (look to boxing, MMA, any sport) is to win. And that is what Vader has criticised about this match. It's art rather than pro-wrestling. Sometimes it will blur the lines to deliver comedy or athleticism. The problem is this match has come out to be 100% of art/athleticism and 0% of what professional wrestling "was"/"is". And that will get big critics from some people.




I don't think psychology can merely be translated into making something seem real, rather it is more broadly the art of making the crowd care and making the crowd invested in what is going on in the ring. Now, this can absolutely be achieved by using realism and presenting the product "real" but there are several other ways to draw in a crowd. If you look at the crowd in the ricochet Ospreay match, they were absolutely 100 invested in the match and the outcome regardless of how over the top it was, because both guys were so good at quickly establishing the tone and theme of the match within the first couple of minutes. Sure, it was completely absurd to watch at face value but in the context of the situation the crowd were absolutely sucked in to action. I think you could easily describe what Rico and will did as psychology, just not in the traditional sense.


----------



## sXeMope (Jul 23, 2012)

Haven't seen the match so I can't really judge it as a whole, but a lot of high flyers are a dime a dozen. Very few wrestlers can truly blend their style into a story, or something that I can care about it long-term. It's cool to watch, but it's nothing that will be remembered a few months from now. I'm a big indy wrestling fan but honestly I feel like the "indy style" is killing wrestling to some degree.


----------



## DGenerationMC (Jan 30, 2011)

Whose dumb enough to try and argue with Vader?

Not me.


----------



## ErickRowan_Fan (Feb 8, 2014)

DGenerationMC said:


> Whose dumb enough to try and argue with Vader?
> 
> Not me.


I wish Vader was still in his prime, so we could see a handicap match between Vader and Ricochet & Ospreay. Great entertainment if nothing else.


----------



## ErickRowan_Fan (Feb 8, 2014)

Funaki7 said:


> I love high flying. I'm not specifically into just spot-fest stuff (most of Lucha Underground) and I tend to phase out and stop being amazed. I watched the highlights of Rico and Will, was amazed.
> 
> People overrated this whole "psychology" thing imo. A good match is a good match. Wrestling is simple, make loves look realistic, sell the moves and interact with the crowd. The booking of the match is a different matter but I just mean as wrestlers' jobs. I don't get this whole psychology angle. I'd watch Rico Vs Will over every Vader match ever, and *I like Vader, but he can't perform as an athlete like these men can.*


Of course he can't, the guy weighed over 400 pounds.

Vader pulling off a moonsault is like Ospreay pulling off a double shooting star press. Vader was actually much more of an athlete than Rico or Ospreay ever will be. No disrespect to Rico or Ospreay of course, but let's call it like it is, there are 180 pound gymnasts everywhere. There aren't 400 lb NFL players who played in a Super Bowl everywhere. Practising flips at your local gymnasium doesn't really match up to Vader's athletic achievements.


----------



## The Nuke (Mar 7, 2016)

Desecrated said:


> My interpretation of psychology is that it's "how real you can make wrestling look". And one of the aspects of real, live competition (look to boxing, MMA, any sport) is to win. And that is what Vader has criticised about this match. It's art rather than pro-wrestling. Sometimes it will blur the lines to deliver comedy or athleticism. The problem is this match has come out to be 100% of art/athleticism and 0% of what professional wrestling "was"/"is". And that will get big critics from some people.


I see the realism as ART as well. They art of going out there and making it look legit enough to make people think it's real when they know it isn't. People bash Cornette and now Vader for saying this, but they are far from the only ones. Austin, Hart, Jake, Flair, etc. Just go on down the line.

To see people write this off is disheartening. That is what wrestling is. You can do flips and cool spots all you want, but ground it in some kind of reality. Ibushi, AJ, and Kushida flip, but they also understand the fundamentals of what Wrestling is.

I mean the match didn't even have a earned ending. It just ended. Because they no sold, there was no emotion to build to an ending that felt earned. AFter all the crap they took and no sold, that one little move form Ospreay gets the win? Took me out of the match even more.


----------



## Natecore (Sep 16, 2013)

Vader had an extremely apt and valid criticism for the match. He asked "is there anything in this video that relates to winning?" I was thinking the same thing. The Osprey/Riccochet match was a wonderful showcase and extremely exciting but it lost sight of what prowrestling is all about: winning the match. It didn't feel like Osprey wore his opponent down and had him beat as much as that was the planned finish and it was time to go home. They hit all their planned maneuvers and the pin is all that's left.

And people need to shut the fuck up about Vader. I'm glad people still get pissed when watching wrestling because it shows wrestling still matters. Arguments, debates and grumpy old men are all part of the wonderful prowrestling tapestry. If anything I was more annoyed by Riccochet's "Wrestling is art. Wrestling is whatever somebody wants it to be" flower child, bullshit response.


----------



## Stetho (Aug 3, 2015)

Natecore said:


> The Osprey/Riccochet match was a wonderful showcase and extremely exciting but it lost sight of what prowrestling is all about: winning the match.


It's the exact opposite. The all point of storytelling in wrestling is to have something else than the pure win on the line. It's a war of ego, in what is supposed to determine the best Jr, in front of the Jr champion.


----------



## Blommen (May 11, 2012)

Natecore said:


> Vader had an extremely apt and valid criticism for the match. He asked "is there anything in this video that relates to winning?" I was thinking the same thing. The Osprey/Riccochet match was a wonderful showcase and extremely exciting but it lost sight of what prowrestling is all about: winning the match.


I disagree with this perspective for one big reason. Wrestling isn't a sport or an athletic competition. Wrestling is entertainment being presented in the framework of an athletic competition in order to draw in the crowd and make them invested in the action. In the end the most important job a wrestler has isn't to win the match, it is to entertain the crowd, and I don't think you can argue that ricochet and Ospreay did that. Now, what entertains a crowd can vary greatly from country to country, culture to culture, etc. etc, but I certainly don't think that Realism is a necessary pre requisite for drawing in the fans and getting them invested in the match, it is merely one of the many ways you can draw some people into it. Not everyone is going to react favorably to it, just like not everyone is going to react favorably to highflying, but thankfully the immense diversity of the wrestling landscape today means that there is something for everyone and you don't have to watch something you don't like.



> And people need to shut the fuck up about Vader. I'm glad people still get pissed when watching wrestling because it shows wrestling still matters. Arguments, debates and grumpy old men are all part of the wonderful prowrestling tapestry. If anything I was more annoyed by Riccochet's "Wrestling is art. Wrestling is whatever somebody wants it to be" flower child, bullshit response.



I don't understand why you are so hellbent on excluding different outlooks on wrestling? Absolutely there is a place for "grumpy old man" wrestling to use your own phrase, but why isn't there room for what ricochet and Ospreay are doing? Just because I don't personally enjoy the way hip-hop and rap culture has evolved it doesn't mean that they don't belong or aren't actually rappers. It's also hilarious that you say debates and arguments are a part of wrestling, and then go on to completely disregard ricochet's argument as flower child bullshit. I mean c'mon, you can see how weird that looks, right?


----------



## just1988 (Jun 15, 2009)

*There's place for both styles, even place for both styles on the same card. Why waste your time with negativity? Just focus on the stuff you like and enjoy yourself.*


----------



## PulseGlazer (Aug 8, 2007)

http://vip.pwtorch.com/2016/05/29/c...er-argument-about-todays-pro-wrestling-style/


----------



## Blommen (May 11, 2012)

PulseGlazer said:


> http://vip.pwtorch.com/2016/05/29/c...er-argument-about-todays-pro-wrestling-style/




Wish I could read this


----------



## Sekai no Kana (May 11, 2014)

*Whole thing is subjective. Whether you liked it or you didn't, is and (should be) perfectly fine either way.*


----------



## Sick Graps-V2 (Apr 1, 2013)

I thought Ricochet vs Ospreay was a great match by two incredible wrestlers; both of whom are on the rise. This was a super juniors match a.k.a 'cruiserweight', cruiserweights flip and jump around a lot: in this cruiserweight match there was a lot of flipping and jumping as is normal for the division; what is the problem here? It was a great match, the crowd in attendance enjoyed it; I'm sure a large majority of those of you who watched the match enjoyed it too: though I dont want to make assumptions. 

Someone who likes traditional matches with more chain wrestling may complain about excessive flips in a cruiserweight match, the same guy may not enjoy Lucha Libre for the same reason. Someone who enjoyed the wrestling style of the attitude era may think todays style has become too technical. Someone who liked Sammartino in the 60's and Superstar Billy Graham in the 70's might not have liked the pagentry, colour, charisma and often zaniness with which Hogan, Savage and Warrior worked in the 80's; which rerpresented the beginnings of moving the then wwwf away from a more traditional ring based product towards what it has become today. A fan of indie wrestling might not enjoy the mainstream WWE style due to the sometimes watered down move-sets or glossy presentation; someone who likes strong style Japanese wrestling might not like American wrestling since it lacks the sports like presentation and stiff working style. Wrestling has so many varying styles across the world and it's to be expected that _everybody_ won't like _every style_. 

While I can actually see the difference between styles Vader eludes to for myself, I think this is a case of one size doesn't necessarily fit all. Different strokes for different folks. I respect Vaders opinion and the gravity it carries, but I think the varying of styles in pro-wrestling is both a part of its evolution and one of the best things about it. If suddenly the only colour of car we could buy/drive happened to be red and nothing else, it would really suck if you hated red and wanted to drive a blue car. 

Wrestling is something which has required the suspension of disbelief since the early 80's, there will be mat technicians; high flyers; luchadors; catch wrestling; strong style; greco-roman wrestling; brawlers and everything in between: and that's great- because nobody wants to live in a world in which the only colour car you can drive is red.


----------



## Stephen90 (Mar 31, 2015)

One of the huge reasons wrestling suffered in the 90's before the NWO was dumb things like. The Giant falling off a building and somehow being fine. A yeti raping Hogan. Evil Dentists,garbage men, Papa Shango, Dungeon of Doom,Doink the Clown, Men on a mission, Dave Sullivan and many others. You can only suspend your belief for so long.


----------



## Punkhead (Dec 29, 2011)

Ricochet's response to this is great. I completely agree with him.


----------



## Natecore (Sep 16, 2013)

Blommen said:


> I disagree with this perspective for one big reason. Wrestling isn't a sport or an athletic competition. Wrestling is entertainment being presented in the framework of an athletic competition in order to draw in the crowd and make them invested in the action. In the end the most important job a wrestler has isn't to win the match, it is to entertain the crowd, and I don't think you can argue that ricochet and Ospreay did that. Now, what entertains a crowd can vary greatly from country to country, culture to culture, etc. etc, but I certainly don't think that Realism is a necessary pre requisite for drawing in the fans and getting them invested in the match, it is merely one of the many ways you can draw some people into it. Not everyone is going to react favorably to it, just like not everyone is going to react favorably to highflying, but thankfully the immense diversity of the wrestling landscape today means that there is something for everyone and you don't have to watch something you don't like.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well there is a reason you responded to me and it's because I wasn't just like the 100 other posts just saying "wrestling is any and everything" or worse "wrestling is just entertainment." There is a marked difference between cheerleading competitions, karate exhibitions, gymnastics meets, live theatre or Cirque du Soleil and prowrestling. All forms of live entertainment but what separates prowrestling from all those is one thing: a finish. Whether it's a 3 count, submission or no contest prowrestling isn't just entertainment it's about being entertaining in a worked competition where the goal is to beat your opponent. The moment prowrestling loses sight of this is the moment prowrestling is no different than anything else displaying athleticism.

And the criticisms of this match type are nothing new. I never said there wasn't room for whatever prowrestling can be you just assumed I did. I'm a chikara fan. I absolutely adore everything Quackenbush has to say about the artistry of prowrestling. I watch Lucha Underground. I'm a Dragon Gate fan first exposed to the sprint style through Do Fixer vs Blood Generation in ROH. My favorite match of 2016 is Bullet Club (Guns, Gallows and the Young Bucks) vs ROH Champions (Lethal, Strong and War Machine). It is nothing but a highly choreographed, insane spotfest. There is room for it all in prowrestling (I still fail to see where I said there wasn't) but if all a person has to offer is an indescriminate thought of "wrestling can be everything" then I question the artist/prowrestler that says it and I have doubts about the consumer/fan that reciprocates it. I have to believe Riccochet is doing movez for movez sakes and what I'm watching is just an athletic showcase and not a prowrestling match.

Riccochet/Osprey was entertaining and highly athletic as I said but it came up short of being a great prowrestling match.


----------



## Eva MaRIHyse (Jun 20, 2014)

LOL at Ricochet telling Vader how wrestling works. These spot monkeys get so butthurt so easily and have such an ego about their work.


----------



## mrtdg82 (May 2, 2013)

It's the no selling that bothers me... It doesn't help the business in general. 

I appreciate the ability and athleticism but I'm not sure how a match like this would fit on a card amongst other styles.

To me it's up there with hardcore/extreme wrestling. Fun if you take it for what it is but needs to be diluted or it's too much.

What I will say is the disrespect for Vader by the 2 guys is awful. The guy gave an opinion and hardly slated the match, just expressed his views in quite a balanced way.


----------



## Blommen (May 11, 2012)

Natecore said:


> Well there is a reason you responded to me and it's because I wasn't just like the 100 other posts just saying "wrestling is any and everything" or worse "wrestling is just entertainment." There is a marked difference between cheerleading competitions, karate exhibitions, gymnastics meets, live theatre or Cirque du Soleil and prowrestling. All forms of live entertainment but what separates prowrestling from all those is one thing: a finish. Whether it's a 3 count, submission or no contest prowrestling isn't just entertainment it's about being entertaining in a worked competition where the goal is to beat your opponent. The moment prowrestling loses sight of this is the moment prowrestling is no different than anything else displaying athleticism.



I'm not sure what you mean by wrestling matches having a finish being what seperates it from other types of athletic entertainment, those things have finishes as well, usually a build up and in some cases even a story as well. The only difference is what the entertainment is being framed as. in pro wrestling the entertainment is framed as an athletic competition, and of course someone has to win said competition (mostly anyways), but that is not necessarily why people tune in and watch. it absolutely could be a reason, if the characters in the match has spent a lot of time building up the feud between so that the crowd is invested in them, but people could just as well tune in to watch a match because they are big fans of what actually goes on in the ring. That is literally why people chant this is awesome, it's the crowd disregarding kayfabe and complimenting the performers regardless of who wins.

I also think it's weird that people want to distance wrestling from being "just entertainment", honestly. sports are entertainment as well, so are theater, why is it that a combination of the two somehow should try to shed that moniker? that's a discussion for another time though...



> There is room for it all in prowrestling (I still fail to see where I said there wasn't)


I got that impression from you stating that there is a singular purpose to wrestling which is winning and anything that deviates from that singular purpose isn't somewhat devaluates the wrestling product:

"The Osprey/Riccochet match was a wonderful showcase and extremely exciting but it lost sight of what prowrestling is all about: winning the match."

I can see your point but at the same time I think it's incredibly limiting to wrestlers and wrestling in general that the only thing a wrestling match can be about is winning the match. I mean, look at the Ishii - Shibata matches that were largely centered around who could take the most damage. how the fuck does inviting your opponent to slam/kick/chop you have anything to do with winning. It's a dick meassuring contest, just like what Ospreay and Ricochet did, they just have different strengths and decided to play to them. I absolutely agree with you that these things lend a certain surrealism to wrestling and I can absolutely see why that may not be everyones cup of tea, but yet again, That doesn't mean it dilutes the wrestling product at all to me.



> but if all a person has to offer is an indescriminate thought of "wrestling can be everything" then I question the artist/prowrestler that says it and I have doubts about the consumer/fan that reciprocates it. I have to believe Riccochet is doing movez for movez sakes and what I'm watching is just an athletic showcase and not a prowrestling match.


What are you questioning though? his point is that not everyone is entertained by the same style of wrestling, so therefore any type of wrestling has its own merits and should still be called wrestling. I still don't see what is so objectionable about the viewpoint that different people want different things from their wrestling and that a deviation.

Moreover, I'm not sure what any of this has to do with the Ospreay Ricochet match? They had a finish, and a decisive winner, they had the crowd screaming with excitement, they kept them invested in the action from bell to bell... What exactly did they do, that was so bad? they used those beginning flips to set up the framework of the match being a game of one-up manship between two of the best highflyers in the world, and then built up the rest of the match to a climax, where the better man finally persevered and put away the other.

Writing that match off as simply move spamming seems incredibly narrow minded to me, considering the fact that they managed to captivate and draw a reaction like they did, especially in front of a very reserved Japanese crowd. Was it a spotfest? sure, probably, but it was an incredibly well executed spotfest and they managed pull an absolutely incredible amount of stuff in the match without taking the audience out of the match.


----------



## Sick Graps-V2 (Apr 1, 2013)

Stephen90 said:


> One of the huge reasons wrestling suffered in the 90's before the NWO was dumb things like. The Giant falling off a building and somehow being fine. A yeti raping Hogan. Evil Dentists,garbage men, Papa Shango, Dungeon of Doom,Doink the Clown, Men on a mission, Dave Sullivan and many others. You can only suspend your belief for so long.


The point I made in comparing the varying styles across the decades was made to highlight the fact not only is wrestling different across the world, but also that wrestling changes over time; and people who experience those changes first hand might not like how things evolve after those changes occur: and how evolution, vartiation of styles and change is a huge part of what makes wrestling great. 

I actually agree with you on your point of how those gimmicks of the past you mentioned almost ruined wrestling in the 90's, but solely for the reason those gimmicks and angles you listed were so terrible. The suspension of disbelief we have for terrible gimmicks and cringeworthy storylines is of a different kind to the suspension of disbelief we apply to two talented wrestlers having a great match in the ring. 

When HHH had sex with Katie Vicks' corpse I thought to myself: 'this shit is terrible, and fucking crazy'; my disbelief had to be suspended since although I continued to watch the product I could see how truly bad the angle was, and I knew how totally out of the box and bat shit crazy the notion that HHH had actually had sex with somebodys corpse on TV was; but regardless I continued to watch WWF TV.

The suspense of disbelief you extend to two wrestlers having a great match in the ring is of a totally different kind. It is based in a respect for and understanding of the in ring craft; not a conscious ignorance or tolerance to a crazy angle like HHH raping a corpse or Pappa Shango putting a curse on the Ultimate Warrior. 

Suspension of disbelief for crazy angles and gimmicks is one of tolerantly ignoring the things which don't make sense; the suspension of disbelief extended towards the in-ring product is out of respect for and understanding of both the craft and the variation of in-ring styles, and something I think is a key element in pro wrestling as a whole.

When a wrestler throws a punch in the ring you don't say 'this shit is fake' because you want to enjoy the product, and the understanding that of course the punch wasn't a _real _punch is a given. If a punch is thrown in a wrestling ring but it is a _perfectly executed, good looking punch_ then you happily suspend your disbelief out of respect because the work in the ring is being done _extremely well, and to a high standard:_everything in the Ricochet vs Ospreay match was done extremely well and to a high standard. 

Conversely, if a terrible angle makes it to TV, with bad writing, bad booking and or stale cringeworthy gimmicks (as given in your example); you try to suspend your disbelief in order to consciously and tolerantly ignore something which has been ill-conceived and badly-executed (as in the examples you have given). 

One type of suspension of disbelief is extended out of a respect for and understanding of pro-wrestling, is essential to and helps enrich your enjoyment of a _perfectly executed_ in ring product; the other conversely helps you to ignore terribly bad angles and gimmicks like the ones you listed, so you can somehow find the will to continue watching after the madness ends: essentially the same phrase but in two totally different contexts, therefore I think with different meanings - and so I don't think there is any corrrelation and would have to disagree with your comparison.


----------



## jim courier (Apr 5, 2013)

That clip is total garbage wrestling matches are supposed to look like fights. No wonder nobody watches this shit anymore.


----------



## El Dandy (Oct 2, 2007)

Ricochet and co. selling the shots to their ego more than the actual bumps they take in a match


----------



## WBS (Apr 19, 2014)

Everybody, and I mean wrestlers, disagree with Vader's thoughts posted on Twitter(even Fit Finlay fgs!!), about the Ricochet and Ospreay match. I liked the match very much. It wasn't an all out monkey spot match.

Plus, the people who actually paid to see the event, live (they were very into the match) or njpw world liked the match. That's all that matters.


----------



## CretinHop138 (Sep 9, 2015)

Vader is on the money when he said "Is either gentleman trying to win the match?"

If you want the best of acrobatics and storytelling (an important aspect) then rewatch WCW's cruiserweight division.


----------



## Blommen (May 11, 2012)

El Dandy said:


> Ricochet and co. selling the shots to their ego more than the actual bumps they take in a match




I have now gone through both ricochet and will twitters and I'm still not sure what butt hurt you are implying? They've retweeted people saying they liked the match and outside of one tweet by ricochet they haven't even mentioned Vader. If anything it feels like it's the other side of the argument utterly decrying the death wrestling that seem to have their panties in a bunch. The only people who seem a bit shitty are the Bucks but the Bucks are massive trolls in general and I don't see how you can take anything they tweet as anything but a joke.


----------



## Arkham258 (Jan 30, 2015)

CretinHop138 said:


> Vader is on the money when he said "Is either gentleman trying to win the match?"
> 
> If you want the best of acrobatics and storytelling (an important aspect) then rewatch WCW's cruiserweight division.


Did Vader really say gentlemen? Wow. Talk about old man speak. Get Vader his walker


----------



## RyanPelley (Jun 5, 2011)

I haven't seen the match and doubt I will (just not interested in Ricochet), but why has this gotten blown up so much? Vader comments on the match and Ricochet gets super offended? Is that it basically? 

I've seen other people on social media blasting Vader and Cornette for being "behind" the times. Like really, who gives a fuck? They like what they like and you like what you like. Ranting and raving over them is worse than how they dislike newer wrestling.


----------



## HOJO (Feb 25, 2012)

RyanPelley said:


> I haven't seen the match and doubt I will (just not interested in Ricochet), but why has this gotten blown up so much? Vader comments on the match and Ricochet gets super offended? Is that it basically?
> 
> I've seen other people on social media blasting Vader and Cornette for being "behind" the times. Like really, who gives a fuck? They like what they like and you like what you like. Ranting and raving over them is worse than how they dislike newer wrestling.


It's Ospreay who's salty not Ricochet, he handled it fine


----------



## Blommen (May 11, 2012)

RyanPelley said:


> I haven't seen the match and doubt I will (just not interested in Ricochet), but why has this gotten blown up so much? Vader comments on the match and Ricochet gets super offended? Is that it basically?
> 
> I've seen other people on social media blasting Vader and Cornette for being "behind" the times. Like really, who gives a fuck? They like what they like and you like what you like. Ranting and raving over them is worse than how they dislike newer wrestling.




Not really. Vader said that he was sad that wrestling was coming to this, and ricochet wrote a post where he presented his viewpoint, it being that wrestling is an art form that can be presented in a bunch of different ways, and how that art form should be presented is up to the performer/wrestler. Since then wrestlers have come out in support of ricochet's point of view, and to congratulate them on their match (Finlay, William regal, Xavier woods, Dave Meltzer).


----------



## Blommen (May 11, 2012)

HOJO said:


> It's Ospreay who's salty not Ricochet, he handled it fine




What did Ospreay do that was so bad? A Vader bomb? Considering how Vader basically called his style a bunch of bullshit based on a gif of the match that was taken out of context, I think it's a bit more fitting to say that Vader was the one who was salty.


----------



## CretinHop138 (Sep 9, 2015)

Arkham258 said:


> Did Vader really say gentlemen? Wow. Talk about old man speak. Get Vader his walker


No, hence where the quote marks inded, he said "Is either gentleman trying to win the match?"


----------



## HOJO (Feb 25, 2012)

Blommen said:


> What did Ospreay do that was so bad? A Vader bomb? Considering how Vader basically called his style a bunch of bullshit based on a gif of the match that was taken out of context, I think it's a bit more fitting to say that Vader was the one who was salty.


Doing a Vader Bomb in response to Vader just being critical of things you did in a match as if you'll never hear an older guy be critical of your match in such a way is some slaty mark shit to do, especially in Japan


----------



## Blommen (May 11, 2012)

HOJO said:


> Doing a Vader Bomb in response to Vader being critical of things you did in a match is pretty fucking salty.




More salty than announcing the death of pro wrestling based on a 10 second gif taken out of context? I suppose it's debatable.


----------



## HOJO (Feb 25, 2012)

I don't give a shit about "more salty" and that's not the point


----------



## WBS (Apr 19, 2014)

I'm starting to really believe that the majority of the people that are bashing the match, have actually just watched the gif and not the entire match. 
Everybody has their tastes tho...


----------



## WBS (Apr 19, 2014)

CretinHop138 said:


> Vader is on the money when he said "Is either gentleman trying to win the match?"
> 
> If you want the best of acrobatics and storytelling (an important aspect) then rewatch WCW's cruiserweight division.


Have you watched the match? ...


----------



## HOJO (Feb 25, 2012)

oh boy this excuse again


----------



## El Dandy (Oct 2, 2007)

I agree @WBS what are your thoughts on the artistry of one man taking a DVD on the ring apron and literally 4 seconds later he's up giving his opponent a reverses-rana?


----------



## Cliffy (Mar 31, 2011)

The best heels in the business are 50+, they're the one's getting all the legit heat

That's quite sad 

Sent from my LG-D855 using Tapatalk


----------



## mrtdg82 (May 2, 2013)

HOJO said:


> Doing a Vader Bomb in response to Vader just being critical of things you did in a match as if you'll never hear an older guy be critical of your match in such a way is some slaty mark shit to do, especially in Japan


I have known ospreay for sometime, this doesn't surprise me. He has incredible athletic ability but does have quite an ego, especially for someone that young.


----------



## Blommen (May 11, 2012)

El Dandy said:


> I agree @WBS what are your thoughts on the artistry of one man taking a DVD on the ring apron and literally 4 seconds later he's up giving his opponent a reverses-rana?




I think using that sequence to tease a double count out and using that change of pace to go into the more sluggish brawl section of the match served as a brilliant short intermission before going into the second half of the match. 

Then again taken out of context I can see how it might not seem palatable to some people


----------



## Darkest Lariat (Jun 12, 2013)

I usually defend Vader but not on this one. Every style has it's place if you enjoy it or not. Conservatism is bullshit. This isn't any different than the likes of Liger, Sasuke, and Tiger Mask in Vader'a time.

This is also hilarious:


----------



## Arkham258 (Jan 30, 2015)

There was a Daniel Bryan/Cesaro match from Ring of Honor I once saw on youtube that Vader would hate too. It was both guys just showing off every thing they could do, lot more than you ever saw them do in a WWE match. They seemed to be really enjoying themselves and the crowd loved it. It felt like a show piece match, not a blood feud, or grudge match or anything. Sometimes, that's okay


----------



## USAUSA1 (Sep 17, 2006)

This social media era is so lame. Let Vader have an opinion, no need to jump on the guy.


----------



## mrtdg82 (May 2, 2013)

Without getting into the debate of whether Vader was right or wrong, I have wondered for ages if this is the evolution of wrestling and those that don't like it are behind the times or whether it is just an alternative.

I can see arguments for both sides.

I grew up in the 80's/90's so was very much about characters and buying into the person. Arguably the top drawing wrestlers of all time did about 10 moves between them. 

I just look at wow moments, like at mania 31 when Orton hit that rko on Rollins, that would be a filler moment in a match like this.


----------



## PulseGlazer (Aug 8, 2007)

Blommen said:


> Wish I could read this




Check this out: CALDWELL – Ospreay vs. Ricochet – One match captures the larger argument about today’s pro wrestling style. https://re.dwnld.me/bp2rc-caldwell-ospreay-vs-ricochet-one-match-captures-the-larger
https://re.dwnld.me/bp2rc-caldwell-ospreay-vs-ricochet-one-match-captures-the-larger


----------



## Blommen (May 11, 2012)

mrtdg82 said:


> I just look at wow moments, like at mania 31 when Orton hit that rko on Rollins, that would be a filler moment in a match like this.



I mean, they are completely different styles, going for completely different things in completely different contexts, so I don't think a one to one comparison is really that necessary in this case. At the same time though, arguably one of the biggest reactions in the match came from a head butt they had been building towards for a solid 5 minutes, so I don't necessarily think that the rarity of the move is what makes it filler or not. I've found that pops are much more a product of the moment than the move, and good wrestlers are able to capitalize on this (okada dropkicks for example), and I personally think that is part of what made that Rico -Will match so damn impressive, because despite how fucking insane the tempo was, and despite how much stuff they cramped in there, they never lost the crowd at once and they had them popping at every single stand still in the action.


----------



## The Nuke (Mar 7, 2016)

Styles are not the issue. Hard hitting, technical, or Flippy. Wrestle anyway you want, but for fuck sake make me believe it.

That's Wrestling. Plain and simple.


----------



## joeysnotright (Jan 6, 2009)

Stetho said:


> _This is NOT directed at any particular guy on this thread, but just my reaction to everything we heard since the match._
> 
> Please watch the match before you say stupid shit.
> 
> ...


I agree with you 100%.


----------



## NastyYaffa (Jun 26, 2012)

Arkham258 said:


> There was a Daniel Bryan/Cesaro match from Ring of Honor I once saw on youtube that Vader would hate too. It was both guys just showing off every thing they could do, lot more than you ever saw them do in a WWE match. They seemed to be really enjoying themselves and the crowd loved it. It felt like a show piece match, not a blood feud, or grudge match or anything. Sometimes, that's okay


I actually think that Vader would probably like the match, since I am pretty sure the match you are talking about is the Northern Navigation one, and that match featured great storytelling, pacing & match structure. There wasn't any no selling either.


----------



## El Dandy (Oct 2, 2007)

Blommen said:


> I think using that sequence to tease a double count out and using that change of pace to go into the more sluggish brawl section of the match served as a brilliant short intermission before going into the second half of the match.
> 
> Then again taken out of context I can see how it might not seem palatable to some people


ayy that's the thing: it's not taken out of context. What you call brilliant, I call retarded. 

I saw Will Ospreay die after theoretically being dropped on his head on the ring apron; literally 3-to-4 seconds later he's fine and giving Ricochet a reverse rana; then he luckily remembers to play dead and 19 seconds later they both crawl back into the ring; they both then hop to it and act as if nothing happened cause it's on to to the next one

This may be hard for some to believe, but just because people didn't like the match doesn't mean:

A) they didn't watch the match
B) don't understand the context
3) don't understand the point of view from where this type of wrestler/fan comes from.

For me, I've seen it, I completely understand the point of view, have entertained it, but reject it because I don't care for that type of wrestling. 

It's all subjective and I think it sucks; some think it's great, and they think it's cool. What a time to be alive!


----------



## Arkham258 (Jan 30, 2015)

NastyYaffa said:


> I actually think that Vader would probably like the match, since I am pretty sure the match you are talking about is the Northern Navigation one, and that match featured great storytelling, pacing & match structure. There wasn't any no selling either.


I'm not sure if it's the same match, but I got the distinct impression when I was watching it that both guys were showing off for the benefit of the crowd. Some of the stuff they did seemed unnecessary if all they wanted to do was get a win


----------



## CretinHop138 (Sep 9, 2015)

Ospreay needs to behave himself and rein it in. He's at risk at pissing off people more higher up than him (including New Japan) and one of these days he's going to get a bollocking he'll regret. Adrian Neville/PAC was exactly like him back in his younger days in the UK. But he grew up and matured in the ring.

The reason why I'm not fully behind the match is because the wrestlers looked like they put more effort into "flippy shit" than actually looking like they are trying to win the match. Looking fake and choreographed in otherwords. Do the high flying if you are trying to win the match not for the sake of it.


----------



## kimino (Mar 16, 2012)

He is entitled to his opinion, i thought it was great, some people want the feel of a "real" fight, sure why not it keep the feeling of a "competitive" sport even when we all know its not ture, but i dont get why some people should deny another different style, where the match isnt trying to imitate realism, but to showcase the athleticism of these 2 great wrestlers and both styles have the same goal of entertain the audience.


----------



## NastyYaffa (Jun 26, 2012)

Arkham258 said:


> I'm not sure if it's the same match, but I got the distinct impression when I was watching it that both guys were showing off for the benefit of the crowd. Some of the stuff they did seemed unnecessary if all they wanted to do was get a win






It's this one, right?

It's all about Claudio's growing frustration as the match goes on, it's a damn great technical wrestling exhibition, but the storytelling is also there. The match kicked off a feud between them that ended 6 months later. IMO nothing like what Ricochet & Ospreay did.


----------



## Deadman's Hand (Mar 16, 2013)

*Didn't Vader say that he liked the match, but he just didn't fell as if the opening spot was needed?

I don't get the big deal here. Vader gave criticism to a match, Ricochet gave his opinion & defended himself in a calm manner, and yet somehow, people are acting as if Vader or Ricochet are mad?

I didn't any insulting, personal attacks, or anything. All I see are two grown ass dudes having a bit of a disagreement, and yet people are saying that Vader or Ricochet are mad? *


----------



## Arkham258 (Jan 30, 2015)

NastyYaffa said:


> It's this one, right?
> 
> It's all about Claudio's growing frustration as the match goes on, it's a damn great technical wrestling exhibition, but the storytelling is also there. The match kicked off a feud between them that ended 6 months later. IMO nothing like what Ricochet & Ospreay did.


I'll give it another watch, I remember it being a really great match regardless, worth seeing again


----------



## LilOlMe (Apr 2, 2013)

Natecore said:


> Vader had an extremely apt and valid criticism for the match. He asked "is there anything in this video that relates to winning?" I was thinking the same thing. The Osprey/Riccochet match was a wonderful showcase and extremely exciting but it lost sight of what prowrestling is all about: winning the match. It didn't feel like Osprey wore his opponent down and had him beat as much as that was the planned finish and it was time to go home. They hit all their planned maneuvers and the pin is all that's left.
> 
> And people need to shut the fuck up about Vader. I'm glad people still get pissed when watching wrestling because it shows wrestling still matters. Arguments, debates and grumpy old men are all part of the wonderful prowrestling tapestry. If anything I was more annoyed by Riccochet's "Wrestling is art. Wrestling is whatever somebody wants it to be" flower child, bullshit response.


Or it could be about one-upmanship which is perfectly valid, and a method in which you reach your end goal of embarrassing your opponent with your final besting of him at his own game. There's a sport in proving yourself as the alpha at whatever you do.

There _was_ great storytelling in that match. I took it as here's the new young high-flyer on the scene and Ricochet wasn't having it. Rico even said as much during the match.

This is also why Ospreay played the smart-ass the whole time, including resorting to trying to out-grit Ricochet with those hardcore forearms.

The match was versatile and the two had amazingly good timing which you have to appreciate on an athletic level.

Shit is really not serious, and when a crowd responds in such a manner that a typically rather demure crowd starts "holy shit" chants and begs for a rematch, that tells you that they got what they paid for. THAT is what wrestling is about, no matter what anyone tries to tell you, or how hard they kick and scream. It's a business, and they sufficiently put on the match that the audience was pining for. They did a hellavu job too, and it totally made sense within the context of who they are and the story they were trying to tell.

There's room for everything in wrestling. 

No one fucking wants to see Ospreay and Ricochet have a slow-burning match. Get over it.


----------



## mrtdg82 (May 2, 2013)

LilOlMe said:


> Or it could be about one-upmanship which is perfectly valid, and a method in which you reach your end goal of embarrassing your opponent with your final besting of him at his own game. There's a sport in proving yourself as the alpha at whatever you do.
> 
> There _was_ great storytelling in that match. I took it as here's the new young high-flyer on the scene and Ricochet wasn't having it. Rico even said as much during the match.
> 
> ...


It's all about different perceptions.

The problem is though from a crowd perspective if you see guys no selling countless moves, when the next match comes on how do you buy into the moves?

When someone no sells a dvd onto the apron, yet another wrestler has that as a finisher how do you react? The guy took a reverse rana on the outside... That move is lethal enough as it is.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with fast pace, flashy moves etc, cruiser weight wrestling has been in place for years. However it's the type of moves that are the issue and it's the lack of 'selling' which have said hinders wrestling as a whole today.

This type of stuff is fine and entertaining in small doses, but further than that it's too much.


----------



## Arkham258 (Jan 30, 2015)

mrtdg82 said:


> It's all about different perceptions.
> 
> The problem is though from a crowd perspective if you see guys no selling countless moves, when the next match comes on how do you buy into the moves?
> 
> ...


We're talking about an NJPW match, no selling happens all the time. And if you want to complain about that, it brings up the litany of wrestling moves that guys use as finishers that are just regular moves in other people's arsenal

PRO WRESTLING ISN'T REALISTIC.


----------



## WesternFilmGuy (Jul 25, 2014)

I hate old school. I also hate new school. I hate wrestling.


----------



## LilOlMe (Apr 2, 2013)

Why are you here? lol.


----------



## DudeLove669 (Oct 20, 2013)

There are many different flavors of pro wrestling and they aren't for everyone just like how there are many different flavors of peanut butter and jelly. Some like chunky, some like smooth, some like grape, some like strawberry. Nobody is right with their preference since it's a damned opinion.


----------



## mrtdg82 (May 2, 2013)

Arkham258 said:


> We're talking about an NJPW match, no selling happens all the time. And if you want to complain about that, it brings up the litany of wrestling moves that guys use as finishers that are just regular moves in other people's arsenal
> 
> PRO WRESTLING ISN'T REALISTIC.


As I said, I'm raising the issue of such a style. 

Some wrestlers go at a very realistic style and bring realism into their matches. Then on the flip side of that we have this which is 100mph, 100 moves, no real selling.

nobody is debating the athleticism of this match, it's incredible, I think some just see where Vader is coming from.

No different to how some hated the car crash wrestling of the 90's, where people were doing extreme/hardcore stuff and they were hitting each other with objects with no real rhyme or reason.


----------



## Rah (Oct 11, 2010)

People criticising the opening sequence are missing the context of it being wrestling's two hottest high-flyers trying to one-up the other in showmanship. They were ego-driven the entire match. A lot of wrestling starts with flashy yet perfunctory work (look at Ambrose/Ziggler's "matwork", as an example that's commonplace on the American indies), this was just an extension of that feeling out process. I also think it's disingenuous to state the match as lacking a drive to win, when the rest of the match was exactly that. I'm not a fan of Ospreay's performance, if but wowed by his athleticism, but Ricochet let a lot of his spots breathe. Fair enough, it got cutesy, but they placed those spots toward the end where bomb-throwing finishing stretches usually lie. I'm not a fan of NJPW's house style for that very reason, and I think that's a problem endemic to a lot more styles than just the cruiserweight one. It seems rather disingenuous to deride these two, and not look at the bigger fault in wrestling, today.


I've got more to type out, and I think a critique from both angles is needed, but I'll have to think that one through before getting back to this post.


----------



## Stetho (Aug 3, 2015)

Anyway the match is now free on NJPW World. Every hater should actually watch it now.

http://njpwworld.com/p/s_series_00392_6_08


----------



## RetepAdam. (May 13, 2007)

It's also up on the NJPW YouTube channel.






I just watched it for the first time. I think if they had scaled it back by about 1/3, it would have been fucking phenomenal. There was so much to like in this match. Great back-and-forth (with actual selling), creative submission maneuvers and spots that made sense, not just in terms of what you'd expect to see from pro wrestling but what how you'd actually expect some of those spots to play out in real life if these two guys were actually competing against each other. I feel like that last part, that kind of realism, is all too rare.

That having been said, there were definitely a handful of moments where they were doing too much or working too fast or getting a little too convoluted, especially later in the match after they had done such a good job selling at other points.

I had seen Ricochet before, but this was my first look at Ospreay. I think both these guys pretty clearly know how to work. This whole competition is something of an exhibition, and their match in particular was going to be looked to as one of the most anticipated, so I can understand why they went all out, balls to the wall. Shit, it got mainstream media coverage in America. When's the last time you've seen that from a non-WWE promotion?

Could it have been better with a little more restraint? Definitely. But I still think there was still a _lot_ to like from a more traditional standpoint.


----------



## WBS (Apr 19, 2014)

RetepAdam. said:


> It's also up on the NJPW YouTube channel.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Exactly. 

Now let's if if someone will now watch the match and stop with the "they weren't trying to win the match" nonsense...


----------



## USAUSA1 (Sep 17, 2006)

This match did not get mainstream media coverage in America LOL.


----------



## RetepAdam. (May 13, 2007)

USAUSA1 said:


> This match did not get mainstream media coverage in America LOL.


FOX Sports not count?

http://www.foxsports.com/wwe/story/new-japan-ricochet-will-ospreay-reaction-controversy-052916

I'm not saying it was on the 10 o'clock news or anything. Just saying that it's pretty rare for anything non-WWE to gain any traction. Only thing I can remember ever seeing really make the rounds was Joey Ryan's YouPorn Plex. And this isn't a 10-second dick joke gif. It's a legit match.


----------



## USAUSA1 (Sep 17, 2006)

RetepAdam. said:


> FOX Sports not count?
> 
> http://www.foxsports.com/wwe/story/new-japan-ricochet-will-ospreay-reaction-controversy-052916
> 
> I'm not saying it was on the 10 o'clock news or anything. Just saying that it's pretty rare for anything non-WWE to gain any traction. Only thing I can remember ever seeing really make the rounds was Joey Ryan's YouPorn Plex. And this isn't a 10-second dick joke gif. It's a legit match.


Lucha Underground took over sportscenter on TV in January(the whole show).

Foxsports,TMZ,Rollingstone,Forbes,etc. write a lot about wrestling these days. Just not WWE, you see stories about TNA,ROH,LU,etc.


----------



## RetepAdam. (May 13, 2007)

USAUSA1 said:


> Lucha Underground took over sportscenter on TV in January(the whole show).
> 
> Foxsports,TMZ,Rollingstone,Forbes,etc. write a lot about wrestling these days. Just not WWE, you see stories about TNA,ROH,LU,etc.


The Lucha Underground SportsCenter thing was a promo arrangement. Not sure that should really count. As for the others, they tend to get coverage over TV deals and items on the business side. How often do you see coverage for a match?

Also, all of this is entirely beside the point.


----------



## TripleG (Dec 8, 2004)

I haven't seen the Ricochet/Osperey match, but typically, I do prefer matches to have more psychology and pacing in them than just doing highspot after highspot.


----------



## WBS (Apr 19, 2014)

TripleG said:


> I haven't seen the Ricochet/Osperey match.


This would have been better..


----------



## Stinger Fan (Jun 21, 2006)

It was a great match. I'm tired of this belief that you have to make every match as slow as possible with as many rest holds as you can and drag the match as much as possible. It's 2016, there are multiple ways of having a good match, the sport has evolved. It's like complaining about hockey being "too fast" today because the athletes got faster and stronger. The match itself definitely had a story and psychology, just because it wasn't one guy working on a leg the entire match does not mean there isn't any. This isn't the 80's anymore, things changed and evolve. The crowd absolutely loved the match as well chanting "This is Awesome". Think about that, a crowd in Japan chanting "this is awesome". Thats unheard of. Give props to Riccochet and Osperay, they had a hell of a match and deserve all the mainstream American publicity it's getting.


----------



## Jonasolsson96 (Dec 31, 2014)

I couldnt agree more with Vader. Not that I'm a fan of the nwa style of wrestling but the pwg style is a joke. You can do atlethic exciting stuff but tell a realistic story at the same time. Just watch matches like Nakamura/Ibushi or pretty much anything fromnjpw. Watch any match zayn had in nxt. Ricchochet and Osprey look like they are hving a dance battle


----------



## joeysnotright (Jan 6, 2009)

Jonasolsson96 said:


> I couldnt agree more with Vader. Not that I'm a fan of the nwa style of wrestling but the pwg style is a joke. You can do atlethic exciting stuff but tell a realistic story at the same time. Just watch matches like Nakamura/Ibushi or pretty much anything fromnjpw. Watch any match zayn had in nxt. Ricchochet and Osprey look like they are hving a dance battle


That match was in NJPW...


----------



## Blommen (May 11, 2012)

It's so weird that fast paced has suddenly become synonymous with bad pace, and highspots the antithesis of psychology and storytelling. Like, I get some people may not like the match, but to watch it and conclude that the match doesn't utilize psychology and storytelling is just... it's just fucking wrong. I honestly question sincerity of any wrestling fan knowledgeable about NJPW jr. HW wrestling style watching that match and calling saying it doesn't have a story or psychology. If you didn't like the story, fine, but don't start disregarding and discrediting the work the guys did in the ring. that's just being a hater honestly.


----------



## Rah (Oct 11, 2010)

People criticising the opening sequence are missing the context of it being wrestling's two hottest high-flyers trying to one-up the other in showmanship. They were ego-driven the entire match. A lot of wrestling starts with flashy yet perfunctory work, this was just an extension of that feeling out process. I also think it's disingenuous to state the match as lacking a drive to win, when the rest of the match was exactly that. I'm not a fan of Ospreay's performance, if but wowed by his athleticism, but Ricochet let a lot of his spots breathe. Fair enough, it got cutesy, but they placed those spots toward the end where bomb-throwing finishing stretches usually lie. I'm not a fan of NJPW's house style for that very reason, and I think that's a problem endemic to a lot more styles than just the cruiserweight one. It seems rather disingenuous to deride these two, and not look at the bigger fault in wrestling, today.

I don't think I'm going to have the energy nor time to unpack that last sentence in comparison to other "generations", but I do agree with the basic principle that wrestling is evolving to bigger and bigger spots at the detriment to its quality. I'd argue, though, that such flaws are, in part, down to the business rapidly expanding and technology offering the ability for any old Tom, Dick & Harry to "become" a "wrestler". These guys existed in the 80s, it's just that to get recognition they had to be in bigger feds with exposure and to do so had to have talent. It stands to reason that wrestling will evolve to gymnastic acts when more and more wrestlers are using spots to get over rather than figuring out how to properly structure a match. Spots don't last, in a vacuum, and continual need to one-up your last hoorah is needed.

While true to bigger feds, and I'd assume most would point to the rapidly changing WWE style, I'd still wager its production in part of a generational/societal move toward being more attention-deficit/hyperactive in our consumption habits rather than a sheer drop in actual talent. There's a "discussion" on post-modernity within wrestling over on Voices of Wrestling, if that narrative is your thing, it isn't mine and I'll cease my conjectures here, thus. I'm merely here to offer reasoning for my praise of the aforementioned match.

I think comparing this match to my enjoy (or lack thereof) for Joshi may be an unfair one, but I'll get my comparison point out of the way, first. Ospreay/Ricochet was more entertaining, and better structured, than the vast majority of Joshi that I've seen. There's a weird dichotomy on other sites where the match is being derided yet praise is continually being bestowed upon Akira Hokuto (who I've found to be one of the more egregious workers within the style). I'm not sure I understand the difference between the two, beyond a bias toward a certain style and, perhaps, a lenience given to certain styles that expect different "wrestling rules/physics". The former is probably most true, and not all styles are created equal. I've touched on finishing stretches being fast-paced, and bomb-throwing AJPW is indicative of that, as is current day NJPW (for a quality comparison), but the problem in the instance of a high-flying match is that to setup the next spot, the breathing room between spots is mitigated beyond, perhaps, what it should be. There are guys who can work the style exceptionally (Rey), but I think it requires a helluva talent to master successfully. Ricochet does a good job, but there's a plateau.

I won't argue that this is a must-see spectacle, ready to grace many match of the year lists, but, for the style, it's a very good, if albeit pop-sugar, match. It's certainly better than quite a number of the juniour matches off of the Best of 2000s Puro poll. Perhaps that's due to the other not aging as well, but time will only tell here. I'm not hazarding this as timeless, it's not exceptional enough, but it feels more complete than the average Dragon Gate spotfest where the structure feels disjointed due to the my-turn/your-turn style they run. Sure, this match had a nefarious no-sell or three, but its parts slotted into the whole and the selling existed where need-be. I'd cheekily say that Ospreay made the obnoxious dueling forearms spot look better than Ishii, Zayn or Nakamura have this year, by simply latching onto Richochet's arm bands and using them to desperately stay afloat amidst the barrage. It was a sweet little moment, in a sequence I otherwise loathe.

I think it was interesting to see Regal defend this match, though I think the implication are obvious (WWE are courting the two), but I think that opens up a possible avenue for Will. I've never been sold on him, and he's still very cartoonishly outlandish here, but the kid has athleticism for days and no doubt would be a fabulous star to mold in the performance centre. He's certainly a better acrobat than Evan Bourne who, lest we forget, was dogging it on RoH shows in 2005/2006 only to "get it" and look like an absolute star a half decade later. Regal/Bourne from a Romania is still one of my favourite WWE house shows, and testament to what development can do to a talent.

All praise aside, lunatic spots and actual psychology (learned psychology of matches evolving as the series progresses) is all to be found in the Dragon Lee vs Kamaitachi feud. It's a pity that their work was quickly latched on to around the FantasticaMania show only to be forgotten so quickly. Ironically, I'd hazard it being due to Ospreay making a name for himself, but no matter. I'll wave the lucha flag all by lonesome, once more.


----------



## Stinger Fan (Jun 21, 2006)

The match keeps making more headlines, BOSJ's got coverage on yahoo yesterday and now TSN's facebook page today lol


----------



## Longsword (Apr 13, 2016)

Thanks to Vader rant, the video is free on Youtube.

All I see is very entertaining spotfest match and smiling audience.

Maybe Vader needs to see this one


----------



## Dead Seabed (Jun 3, 2002)

Vader is right, the match was shite, these gymnasts ain't bright.


----------



## Genking48 (Feb 3, 2009)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/736707346626289666
Love Big E


----------



## Mandrake (Oct 30, 2015)

Thanks to Vader this match has now gone viral worldwide and everyone including WWE personnel are praising it. 

Criticizing flips in a Juniors match is on a par with complaining the Golden State Warriors score to many three pointers. Then again Kareem did criticize Steph Curry saying he wouldn't hang during his time so its not just old wrestlers who have a problem letting go of the past.

Ricochet will be a bigger star in America than Vader ever was just wait and see.


----------



## DeMar (Jan 29, 2008)

Those guys are frickin talented. There is no denying that. But it was too flashy for my liking, just kind of seemed all over the place. I can see why people would like it though.


----------



## DGenerationMC (Jan 30, 2011)

ESPN's Highly Questionable showed clips of the match earlier today and all I heard was "it's so choreographed" and "stay in the school, kids". 

Seeing that this followed Rey Mysterio teaching an old man how to cut a promo, maybe the match was destined to be shit on.


----------



## El Dandy (Oct 2, 2007)

Yeah about all that great mainstream press

On one hand it'll be spun "OMG it was actually shown on TV by ESPN!"

On the other, they are laughing at the match and laughing at pro-wrestling

:uhoh


----------



## DGenerationMC (Jan 30, 2011)

El Dandy said:


> Yeah about all that great mainstream press
> 
> On one hand it'll be spun "OMG it was actually shown on TV by ESPN!"
> 
> ...


If wrestlers doing physically insane shit in the ring doesn't force pro wrestling back to the front of mainstream, I don't know what will.


----------



## sweepdaleg (Jan 30, 2014)

Match was fantastic. Super entertaining!


----------



## ErickRowan_Fan (Feb 8, 2014)

Mandrake said:


> Thanks to Vader this match has now gone viral worldwide and everyone including WWE personnel are praising it.
> 
> Criticizing flips in a Juniors match is on a par with complaining the Golden State Warriors score to many three pointers. Then again Kareem did criticize Steph Curry saying he wouldn't hang during his time so its not just old wrestlers who have a problem letting go of the past.
> 
> *Ricochet will be a bigger star in America than Vader ever was just wait and see.*


Not a chance in hell.

Athletic, high-flying wrestlers are dime a dozen nowadays. Mexico is packed with them. Pretty much every guy is required to wrestle a match similar to Ospreay-Ricochet in Mexican wrestling. 400 lb monsters that can actually wrestle are much harder to find.






I wouldn't be surprised if Ospreay actually turns out to be a greater wrestler than Ricochet, the guy is just 23 years old and has a lot of time to pack on some mass and work on his selling/story-telling abilities. The Ricochet type can wow the crowd but the AJ Styles type can draw the house. To me, it appears that Ricochet is simply happy with being known as "the" flippy guy (by his own admission) and that he doesn't really have any major aspirations to be a big star.

It speaks enough of Vader's popularity still that he made a random tweet long after he has been away from active pro wrestling and it suddenly became a news story everywhere in the wrestling world. He should trash more matches on Twitter because it probably made a lot of people watch Ospreay/Ricochet when they otherwise wouldn't have.


----------



## TripleG (Dec 8, 2004)

OK, I finally got a chance to watch the match. 

Being a LU fan, I obviously hold Ricochet in very high esteem. The dude is an exciting talent, an amazing athlete, and as Prince Puma, he is basically the hero character the WWE wants John Cena to be. And Will Ospreay, who I have only seen a handful of times, is a very gifted fresh face with tons of upside. 

That said, I can be quite harsh towards the spotfesty type of matches. Read or watch my reviews of any Young Bucks match or mutli-man Ladder match and you'll get a sense of how I react to these type of things. 

However, that doesn't mean I shit all over predominantly high flying style matches. You can have story, investment, drama, intrigue, context, and all of that great stuff in a high flying display. I refer you to Sami Zayn Vs. Adrian Neville from NXT R-Evolution, one of my favorite matches in the last few years. And hey, Ricky Steamboat Vs. Randy Savage from Wrestlemania III was like the trendsetter for that type of match, at least in the US. 

So getting back to the Ricochet / Ospreay match, it an exciting display that showcases the evolution of pro wrestling or is it a flip floppy spotfest with no psychology? 

Honestly....

I'm somewhere in the middle. 

It was an amazing athletic display with amazing moves, some brutal spots, and an overall exciting presentation. As I said before, both men are tremendous athletes and can do things that very few others can and they put that on full display here. Typically, I like matches of clashing styles, but if both guys are so similar, it makes sense to have them try to outdo each other to see who can do that style better. I'll reference last night's LU match between Matanza & Cage. If I'm watching two brutes, I want to see them beat the crap out of each other and be powerhouses, which they did. If I am watching two high flyers, I want to see them try to out fly each other, and that's what these two tried to do. 

From that aspect, I felt like it had psychology as it legitimately felt like they were trying to prove they were the best at what they do. One problem I have with spotfests is that I tend to lose a sense of them actually trying to win a match and I didn't get that feeling here. And from a contextual standpoint, the outcome mattered because of the tournament structure. Hey, it also had some comedy (Pip Pip Cherrio Motherfucker! lol). 

Praises aside, I do see where Vader is coming from. I felt like this was one of those cases where these guys could have had the fans just as excited and done just as well and done about half the work. They were trying to cram a lot of stuff in there, and hey, all of it looked pretty, but sometimes a little bit more selling and slowing down the pace can make those moves mean more. 

Was it good and did I enjoy it? Certainly. Is it one of my favorite matches of the year and is it the type of thing I'd like to see all the time? Not really, but I am also someone that believes variety is the spice of life and I don't want any one style of pro wrestling to dominate.


----------



## WalkingInMemphis (Jul 7, 2014)

I know I'm late to the party. (just saw this on Bleacher Report) But yeah, I thought the match, for what it was, excellent. Aren't the Super Jrs. supposed to be more flippy and athletic?

The strikes were stiff and the match as a whole built to a crescendo.

The only element I did not care for was the no-selling. And that was mostly by Ricochet. I thought Osperay did an above average job selling Ricochet's offense though.


----------



## Dead Seabed (Jun 3, 2002)

Mandrake said:


> Ricochet will be a bigger star in America than Vader ever was just wait and see.


For sure. A 200 pound junior doing flippy stuff. A star is made.


----------



## Kabraxal (Jun 14, 2004)

DGenerationMC said:


> El Dandy said:
> 
> 
> > Yeah about all that great mainstream press
> ...


Actual professional wrestling... Athleticism only goes so far. They need to build matches so it feels real. The ESPN reaction is spot on: it felt choreographed. Not once did I get sucked into the match. It was just an athletic showcase.

Pyschology is sorely lacking in most of wrestling right now. It's all about an instant pop instead of fully engaging the crowd into the whole match.


----------



## Mandrake (Oct 30, 2015)

ErickRowan_Fan said:


> Not a chance in hell.
> 
> Athletic, high-flying wrestlers are dime a dozen nowadays. Mexico is packed with them. Pretty much every guy is required to wrestle a match similar to Ospreay-Ricochet in Mexican wrestling. 400 lb monsters that can actually wrestle are much harder to find.


Most of them are geeks. Ricochet is a good looking guy with a great body who has charisma and carries himself like a star.

Once he signs with WWE the sky is the limit. Women and kids will love this guy. Non-wrestling fans will take one look at him and be amazed at his abilities, they won't even need to know his backstory like nearly every other talent.

The normal American wrestling fan won't take to a British guy like Ospreay.


----------



## Prince Vega (Jun 1, 2016)

I just watched the match this morning on the train and Christ was it great.

I can understand how some fans aren't too fond of all of the acrobatics and theatrics that smaller wrestlers like Ricochet and Ospreay do in the ring, but that is what the Jr. Heavyweight division is for: to provide fast-paced, aerial, spotfest kind of matches to counter the slower, more power v. power matches.

If matches like these aren't someone's favorite, that's cool, but I say fuck the heavy criticism b/c the match was entertaining as hell and I wanna see a rematch... albeit if Ricochet sells Ospreay's moves better.


----------



## Ham and Egger (Dec 13, 2005)

I thought it was a great match. I thought there was a lot of big moves that had little impact on the opponent but in this kind of match its perfectly fine. These kinds of matches aren't main event level stuff but undercard acts at best.

"Hip hip, cheerio, motherfucker!" :mark:


----------



## ErickRowan_Fan (Feb 8, 2014)

Mandrake said:


> Most of them are geeks. Ricochet is a good looking guy with a great body who has charisma and carries himself like a star.
> 
> Once he signs with WWE the sky is the limit. Women and kids will love this guy. Non-wrestling fans will take one look at him and be amazed at his abilities, they won't even need to know his backstory like nearly every other talent.
> 
> The normal American wrestling fan won't take to a British guy like Ospreay.


Ricochet could be a star, I do not disagree, but I think he has chosen the wrong path to go on about it.

If I was him, I would pay some heed to the criticism. He could achieve a lot more in the ring, by doing a lot less. Not saying that he should become slow and boring, but he could be a lot more intense and emotive in the ring. His strikes could be harder and his matches would look a lot more authentic if he paid less attention to the spots, and more to the stuff in between.

Right now, if he came to the WWE, he would be no different from Apollo Crews or Neville. WWE is a very limiting environment and Ricochet is already not too focused on the story-telling aspect of wrestling.

Here's an example of a junior match that had big spots, but also a very emotionally investing story being told:


----------



## ErickRowan_Fan (Feb 8, 2014)

Even Del Rio was pulling all kinds of crazy stunts in Mexico and according to WWE fans he is the most boring wrestler there is. And that guy is 6'5, 240 pounds. I wouldn't be too confident of Ospreay's or Ricochet's chances of making it in the WWE.


----------



## The Nuke (Mar 7, 2016)

Prince Vega said:


> I just watched the match this morning on the train and Christ was it great.
> 
> I can understand how some fans aren't too fond of all of the acrobatics and theatrics that smaller wrestlers like Ricochet and Ospreay do in the ring, but that is what the Jr. Heavyweight division is for: to provide fast-paced, aerial, spotfest kind of matches to counter the slower, more power v. power matches.
> 
> If matches like these aren't someone's favorite, that's cool, but I say fuck the heavy criticism b/c the match was entertaining as hell and I wanna see a rematch... albeit if Ricochet sells Ospreay's moves better.


I don't think the issue is the high flying, or the style so to speak.

The issue is that there is nothing about that match, in my and others opinion, that says that was an actual contest to decide a winner. It did not suspend disbelief. It was a bunch of spots. Both guys were to in sink to make what they were doing look legit. Hiding that behind the idea that they were just trying to outdo each other is bullshit.

Some disagree, but I fervently believe that the game hasn't changed in that respect. Wrestling is and should always be about making what you're doing in the ring look as legit as possible. To say that the realism doesn't matter, or that Wrestling can be something else, is in my belief disrespectful of all those guys, now and who came before, who do/did there best to do just that. Getting a reaction from the crowd is one thing. Entertaining the crowd is one thing. You should still try to perform the main concept of the art form.

If we no longer see realism as important in wrestling, or give a pass to circus or movie fight performances in that ring, we are pretty much agreeing that Wrestling is dead and will never return to the glory days it once had.

People like this stuff, fine. It's not Wrestling though. 

EDIT: Was listening to a podcast talking about the match, and a guy said he an his daughter were watching it. At one point where one of them hit the ropes, and they both collided and did this flip thing and landed together.....the girl, who isn't privy to how Wrestling works, asked her father why the one guy(ricochet) got hurt and the other guy didn't(ospreay)? 

To me that move is in many ways the story of that match and what is wrong with it. A big spot with no logic, and wasn't performed with any realism. The match in a nutshell.


----------



## Prince Vega (Jun 1, 2016)

The Nuke said:


> I don't think the issue is the high flying, or the style so to speak.
> 
> The issue is that there is nothing about that match, in my and others opinion, that says that was an actual contest to decide a winner. It did not suspend disbelief. It was a bunch of spots. Both guys were to in sink to make what they were doing look legit. Hiding that behind the idea that they were just trying to outdo each other is bullshit.
> 
> ...


I agree w/ your point that a wrestler's main objective should always be to make whatever they're doing (whether it's actual wrestling or cutting a promo or anything else on camera) seem as realistic as possible. Perhaps I wasn't clear when I gave my opinion on the match. As entertaining and fun as the match was, I do feel matches as such belong on the lower end of the card and should be taken w/ a grain of salt. If the match was for a major title let's say, then I'd completely understand the backlash it would garner. Matches like that aren't there to define the art of wrestling nor hinder it as I believe they are only there to break the uniformity and simply excite the crowd.

Was it a "true" wrestling match? No, not at all. Should it be taken as such? No, it shouldn't. IMO, the match was simply a marvel to watch as the two bounced around the arena. But you're right, there was zero logic to the match, but hey, me and a lot of others liked it, and for what it was, it was enjoyable, but I personally won't hold it as an example of pure wrestling.


----------



## Dead Seabed (Jun 3, 2002)

My biggest gripe is that there's no actual "fighting" in it. Just a lot of flippy flops with not much sense or reason.


----------



## BKKsoulcity (Apr 29, 2011)

Vader already some what backtracked from his comments by stating he was just hating on the gif of the sequence floating around and actually enjoyed the match as a whole


----------



## Deadman's Hand (Mar 16, 2013)

BKKsoulcity said:


> Vader already some what backtracked from his comments by stating he was just hating on the gif of the sequence floating around and actually enjoyed the match as a whole


*He didn't really backtracked. Vader only saw teh gif when he made his comments, then he saw the match itself, and said that he enjoyed it.

Also, hear's what Vader think of Ospreay & Ricochet:








*


----------



## Rah (Oct 11, 2010)

THE TAN ONE


----------



## Stetho (Aug 3, 2015)

Deadman's Hand said:


> *He didn't really backtracked. Vader only saw teh gif when he made his comments, then he saw the match itself, and said that he enjoyed it.*


*

That's exactly the problem. Too many people felt they had to share their stupid opinion just because they saw one or two gifs. How can anyone say a match is just random flips without actually watching it ?
This thread getting to 16 pages is a mystery to me. If everybody would have bothered to really watch it there would be no discussion.*


----------



## plibige (Jun 29, 2015)

I watched it there. I didn't want to comment on it until I watched it, but now that I have I have to say I agree it was a complete spot fest and not what I like in wrestling at all.

Ring psychology is so important, and at the end of the day, no matter what way you wrap it up or present this the most basic goals of ring psychology were not followed. We all know this is a spectacle but we want to believe in it and when we do the magic happens. If the goal (which is supposed to be pinning the opponents shoulders to the mat) isn't followed then the whole process begins to unravel. 

Instead of playing to the crowd, you should play the crowd. It's a major difference, and an important one. It's the difference between getting the crowd to react because they were impressed and getting the crowd to react because they cared. When the two guys started show boating and doing moves for reactions rather than following their story and getting the crowd to buy in they lost. 

Letting extraordinarily elaborate submissions go without being forced to break makes no sense. Hitting a devastating move and then looking for a reaction from the crowd instead of pinning the opponent makes no sense and going into a series of clearly choreographed moves to show of your athleticism while ignoring the end goals makes no sense.

I understand there is a market for this style, I understand that people like seeing it and to be honest a few of the spots were extraordinarily impressive in terms of athleticism. But the style is unsustainable, detrimental to the overall product of wrestling and by and large a niche. It's the modern day ECW in terms of style but without the culture.

And hearing the Japanese crows chant "holy shit" at a spot that wasn't a holy shit spot just because they already chanted the "this is awesome" chant proves how fundamentally wrong the whole thing was.


----------



## Alright_Mate (Jul 21, 2014)

Ospreay & Ricochet are extremely talented at what they do, they have put on great performances in other promotions but this match was more like watching a Gymnastic spotfest. The talking throughout was off putting, the no selling was annoying. If this was done in PWG would it be getting the same reviews which have people talking, I'm not so sure, I don't think people would be classing it as a MOTYC that's for sure.

Each to their own though, I enjoy watching both but this match was way too spot heavy and full of gymnastic moves. Kushida vs O'Reilly is where it's at in my opinion, that match was full of good limb work and good psychology.


----------



## Oxidamus (Jan 30, 2012)

This match is Nia Jax vs. Bayley levels of shit. There was maybe three interesting spots. The rest of the match was full of convoluted athletics, pointless talking, obvious spot calling, and more convoluted athletics.


----------



## NastyYaffa (Jun 26, 2012)

KILL V. Oxi said:


> This match is Nia Jax vs. Bayley levels of shit. There was maybe three interesting spots. The rest of the match was full of convoluted athletics, pointless talking, obvious spot calling, and more convoluted athletics.


Both Bayley vs. Nia Jax matches were much better than this match, though.


----------



## El Dandy (Oct 2, 2007)

It's a god damned travesty that this match has all the buzz but KUSHIDA/O'Reilly just got skipped right the fuck over.


----------



## Oxidamus (Jan 30, 2012)

NastyYaffa said:


> Both Bayley vs. Nia Jax matches were much better than this match, though.


They're both duds to me (didn't watch the Nia/Bayley random NXT match recently). You can excuse Nia for being new and her size difference being such a different thing in WWE. But this match still had a couple of decent spots that weren't too convoluted. Overall too shit to care for either.


----------



## Dead Seabed (Jun 3, 2002)

THE TAN ONE has potential though.


----------



## Deadman's Hand (Mar 16, 2013)

Stetho said:


> That's exactly the problem. Too many people felt they had to share their stupid opinion just because they saw one or two gifs. How can anyone say a match is just random flips without actually watching it ?
> This thread getting to 16 pages is a mystery to me. If everybody would have bothered to really watch it there would be no discussion.


*I love how people are saying that the match had no story, when it was blatantly obvious what the story was. Ospreay & Ricochet are considered the two best high-fliers in wrestling, and in this match they started off by trying to one-up the other, and as the match went on, the more intense it became between the two (such as them getting in each other's faces, them beginning to throw strikes at each other, etc.), the more the match became about them trying to beat the other. 

I've seen the match once, and even I got that. Don't get me wrong, I do think some spots weren't needed (like the DvD on the apron, followed by Ricochet trying to throw Ospreay back into the ring, only for Ospreay to hit a reverse-a-rana), and it's fine if people didn't like the match, but in my opinion, it was a great match that told a story, & it got Korakuen Hall on their feet. As William Regal himself said about the match, it was a win-win.

And if you ask me, the spot is being way overblown. 

Maybe it's just me, but after years of watching crusierweight matches, and recently watching PWG matches, and Lucha Libre, this spot was honestly not that big of a deal. I've seen countless matches that started off with two wrestlers doing countless counters & reverses, and it ending in the two staring down while the crowd applauds, so I honestly don't get why this particular spot is causing such an uproar.*


----------



## PulseGlazer (Aug 8, 2007)

Terrific analysis here - http://www.voicesofwrestling.com/2016/06/01/ospreay-vs-ricochet-bosj-scenarios-noah-ajpw/


----------



## The Nuke (Mar 7, 2016)

PulseGlazer said:


> Terrific analysis here - http://www.voicesofwrestling.com/2016/06/01/ospreay-vs-ricochet-bosj-scenarios-noah-ajpw/


not much of an analysis. Disagree with all of it.


----------



## Beatles123 (Jan 26, 2010)

With these old guys, there's always gonna be a generation gap.

Im sure there were people at the time who hated what Stone Cold was doing too, because that's not what "wrestling" was.


----------



## Weeto (Oct 16, 2015)

Vader doesn't seem to have a problem with high flyers, he seems opposed to relentless spot monkey wrestling, where wrestlers are bouncing around like a circus act without using the traditional psychology.

There may be a generational gap to an extent but this is a guy who was appeared alongside some of the best flyers in history. There are too many guys who put their agility above all else though and no selling and using a ridiculous amount of aerial offence without building a match turns it into a tumbling act, as the old timers tended to call spot monkey aerial stuff.


----------



## Dead Seabed (Jun 3, 2002)

Weeto said:


> Vader doesn't seem to have a problem with high flyers, he seems opposed to relentless spot monkey wrestling, where wrestlers are bouncing around like a circus act without using the traditional psychology.
> 
> There may be a generational gap to an extent but this is a guy who was appeared alongside some of the best flyers in history. There are too many guys who put their agility above all else though and no selling and using a ridiculous amount of aerial offence without building a match turns it into a tumbling act, as the old timers tended to call spot monkey aerial stuff.


Exactly. This is a guy who at 400 lbs did a moonsault. He's not opposed to flying, he's opposed to mindless street workout that bears no resemblance to wrestling or trying to win a match.


----------



## squeelbitch (Feb 18, 2013)

i agree with vader somewhat in that i don't think fits into the context of what njpw is about, if this match was in lucha underground where it's a very fantasy based tv show and plays out like something out of marvel comic books then it would fit in well though.


----------



## NeverDrewADime (Apr 22, 2016)

vader stinks, an old relic of a shit era


----------



## ErickRowan_Fan (Feb 8, 2014)

NeverDrewADime said:


> vader stinks, an old relic of a shit era


"Shit era"? I'm not sure anyone in their right mind would claim that today's era of Japanese wrestling is better than Vader's. The crowd's are nowhere near as hot and the attendances are way down. NJPW is pretty much the only company that is truly still afloat. The "juniors" of Vader's era were guys like Jericho, Benoit, Guerrero, Liger, Brian Pillman, Owen Hart, many of whom went onto become big stars in the wrestling business.


----------



## Greatsthegreats (Apr 15, 2015)

ManiacMichaelMyers said:


> Don't know who these two dorks are and why one is doing a pathetic version of a Vader Bomb but they obviously need to shut their damn mouths and know their damn role.
> 
> Vader > dorks.


these "dorks" have six pack abs oh and last time I checked these "dorks" were indy, what is this so called "role" they have as if they were contractually or morally obligated? 



CretinHop138 said:


> Vader has done more in this business than you kiddo and a New Japan legend I might add.


does that make him objectively right though?


----------



## Japanese Puroresu (Jan 12, 2013)

ErickRowan_Fan said:


> "Shit era"? I'm not sure anyone in their right mind would claim that today's era of Japanese wrestling is better than Vader's. The crowd's are nowhere near as hot and the attendances are way down. *NJPW is pretty much the only company that is truly still afloat*. The "juniors" of Vader's era were guys like Jericho, Benoit, Guerrero, Liger, Brian Pillman, Owen Hart, many of whom went onto become big stars in the wrestling business.


Dragon Gate is just fine and AJPW seems to be recovering a little bit now.


----------



## Stetho (Aug 3, 2015)

squeelbitch said:


> i agree with vader somewhat in that i don't think fits into the context of what njpw is about, if this match was in lucha underground where it's a very fantasy based tv show and plays out like something out of marvel comic books then it would fit in well though.


The NJPW crowd loved it tho.
NJPW isn't just Shibata vs Ishii. This was perfectly fit for the BoSJ.


----------



## ErickRowan_Fan (Feb 8, 2014)

Japanese Puroresu said:


> Dragon Gate is just fine and AJPW seems to be recovering a little bit now.


Dragon Gate draw a few hundred fans. They're financially viable but not a major promotion like NJPW, AJPW and NOAH in its early days. AJPW in its day was able to draw tens of thousands.

Just saying that Japanese wrestling is nowhere near as popular as it was. Vader wrestling during a boom period. The main event for AJPW between Misawa and Vader drew 55,000+ fans.

Even the biggest NJPW events nowadays draw only 20,000+ (which is still a great number, but nothing like it was). Tokyo Dome events for NJPW used to draw 60,000+ when Vader was wrestling for them.

This was just in response to Vader having wrestled in a "shit era". The quality of wrestling was every bit as good as it is today, and wrestling was way more popular back then.


----------



## Japanese Puroresu (Jan 12, 2013)

ErickRowan_Fan said:


> Dragon Gate draw a few hundred fans. They're financially viable but not a major promotion like NJPW, AJPW and NOAH in its early days. AJPW in its day was able to draw tens of thousands.
> 
> Just saying that Japanese wrestling is nowhere near as popular as it was. Vader wrestling during a boom period. The main event for AJPW between Misawa and Vader drew 55,000+ fans.
> 
> ...


Dragon Gate is easily #2 and is outdrawing NJPW at house shows fam. They aren't comping tickets for attendance like NJPW does either.


----------



## Yuffie Kisaragi (Sep 24, 2005)

*It was super impressive but at the same time I can see how it can come off looking ridiculous to an old school mind, just taking all those moves from eachother in a crazy exchange and popping back up like its nothing lol. I thought it was epic for one and so did the fans so that is really all that matters I would say. At least Vader is not as bad as Cornette.*


----------



## Big Doggy Dog (Dec 27, 2014)

Loved the match,pure joy from watching it.


----------



## ErickRowan_Fan (Feb 8, 2014)

Japanese Puroresu said:


> Dragon Gate is easily #2 and is outdrawing NJPW at house shows fam. They aren't comping tickets for attendance like NJPW does either.


Didn't realize Dragon Gate was doing so well. I feel it is more indicative of a sad state of affairs for NJPW though. They have not recovered from the slump in the mid-late 2000's, which is what I would truly call a "shit era" for Japanese wrestling, with the MMA fad eating away some of its popularity (and NJPW attempting to accommodate those fans by putting the IWGP title on stiffs like Bob Sapp).

The MMA fad has died away in Japan, and the Japanese wrestling scene has somewhat recovered, but it's not close to what it used to be back when they had several companies drawing thousands of fans on a regular basis.

The argument about keeping it "real" and believable in the ring is usually fueled (for people like Cornette and probably Vader too) by the belief that pro wrestling has lost a lot of its fanbase to combat sports like MMA, due to looking overly produced and unauthentic by comparison. Matches like Ospreay and Ricochet might be the result of a natural evolution in wrestling, but if the evolved version of wrestling has less viewers watching the product and wrestlers getting paid less for their work, then there are bound to be some critics of that style of wrestling.


----------



## Jonasolsson96 (Dec 31, 2014)

Imo this match couldve been one of the best ever if they added a little more psychology. What I mean by that is facial expressions for example. It kinda had somewhat of a comedic style to it with ospreay screming and yelling you bastard and whatever. Him attempting the rainmaker. It had that comedic spotty pwg vibe to it. Still a really enjoyable match due to the spots and reversals that were 100% on point. From an execution standpoint this was 5 stars all the way but if they sold not just the attacks or the agony of what do I have to do to beat this guy this wouldve been moty hell mo the decade. I didnt feel like this was two guys competing for something. Maybe if they did it for a title and there was a little story there nd they took away the comedy aspect these two guys could put on the greatest match ever. 


Still really good but I just wasnt emotionally invested and therefor wasnt on the edge of my seat like I was for example Styles vs Reigns or Okada vs Tana from wk 10. I was blown away by the spots though


----------



## CZWRUBE (Nov 6, 2013)

TheAverageMuta said:


> LOL
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/736818764080140288


ards that was fantastic!!!


----------



## prevail92 (Mar 7, 2005)

*ospreay vs ricochet is not pro wrestling*

sorry but i truly believe that, it was a nice exhibition of moves and athletic skill but at no point did I feel like it was a match or contest between two men. of course we all know wrestling is fake but isnt the point of the whole thing dating back to the 30's to portray a believe athletic contest between two men? the matches with aj and roman did that even with the other things aside, they made it look like they were two men battling for a real prize, samoa joe finn balor did that with their cage match, acting and behaving like men who were fighting for something real. when i watched the match with ospreay and ricochet it looked impressive and displayed great athleticism but at no point could i suspend my disbelief that these men were fighting for anything, it looked like choreographed moves in a choreographed match . at no point did this seem more then anything else than a high profile indy match, and for the record I am not saying i did not like the match but to me does not deserve the uber high praise it gets


----------



## Blommen (May 11, 2012)

*Re: ospreay vs ricochet is not pro wrestling*

There is literally a 10+ page thread on this subject already.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## DGenerationMC (Jan 30, 2011)




----------



## Dead Seabed (Jun 3, 2002)

DGenerationMC said:


>


The way Ospreay's face fits in that godawful photoshop is appalling :lmao


----------

