# Brexit continues to be a colossal fuck up.



## RavishingRickRules (Sep 22, 2016)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44532500

"Take back control" = do huge damage to national security. REALLY should've listened to those experts I think.


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## JackArmstrong (Jul 10, 2017)

Politics in Britain is never coordinated or organised in the slightest. Why should we start now?


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## RavishingRickRules (Sep 22, 2016)

It's not the politics I'm worried about, it's the consequences of those politics and the idiot people who were "sick of experts" who fucked themselves (and the rest of us) for the manipulations of the very people looking to exploit them the most.


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## ka4life1 (Mar 2, 2014)

This was always going to happen.

Something else the 52% obviously forgot to tell us about,
Honestly i don't know if my resentment for them will ever leave me completely.

The most googled thing in the UK on the night of the referendum result was,
'what does the EU actually do'
That should tell you everything you need to know about the path we are now heading towards,
Yet the only arguments i ever heard from the average Brexiter on the street was about immigration and the curve of a Banana.

The Daily Mail and TV Stations that gave Farage disproportionate amounts of air time seriously owe the UK an explanation.

Its all about divide and conquer its what the Tory party has always been about,
You see it with the massive political age divide within the UK, You see it with Disabled People pretty much getting the blame for a global recession instead of the banks and middle classes, The Scots, Little Englanders,Londoners and second generation Immigrants who supports Brexit.

They have torn the UK Apart and i fear people will not see the consequences until it is to late,
But hey at least we will have straight Bananas while Europe's most Dangerous criminals can walk the streets of the UK without our authorities having any idea of their previous behaviors.

Gosh it makes so angry still. 

Cheers for sharing OP.
Peace and love guys,
and Be Excellent to each other....Always.


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## Draykorinee (Aug 4, 2015)

Brexit continues to be a disaster. Leave voters continue to go 'remoaners' and remainers continue to call leavers racist or stupid. 

We were let down massively by both campaigns and now being let down because no one has a fucking clue what they're doing. Maybot and her Tory cronies are weak as fuck and the EU are trying to be as petty as possible.

I'm a remainer and begrudge anyone who voted leave and anyone who campaigned for leave because we're royally fucked right now.


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## Laughable Chimp (Sep 1, 2016)

Brexit kind of highlights one of the biggest issue with democracy. The majority of the population don’t know shit about even basic economics. So how do you then expect them to make such an important decision which can have huge economic ramifications to not only the UK, but Europe itself? You can’t.


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## DoctorWhosawhatsit (Aug 23, 2016)

Literally _everyone_ with half a brain or more said it would be. 

:draper2

That's what happens when you listen to a bunch of mindless propaganda oppose to facts. 

And, yes, I'm well aware of the irony in me, an American, saying that.




Laughable Chimp said:


> Brexit kind of highlights one of the biggest issue with democracy. The majority of the population don’t know shit about even basic economics. So how do you then expect them to make such an important decision which can have huge economic ramifications to not only the UK, but Europe itself? You can’t.


Hit the nail of the head. 

Democracy requires intelligent voters and these days intelligent voters are unfortunately, and in a lot of cases by design, in the minority.


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## RavishingRickRules (Sep 22, 2016)

draykorinee said:


> Brexit continues to be a disaster. Leave voters continue to go 'remoaners' and remainers continue to call leavers racist or stupid.
> 
> We were let down massively by both campaigns and now being let down because no one has a fucking clue what they're doing. Maybot and her Tory cronies are weak as fuck and the EU are trying to be as petty as possible.
> 
> I'm a remainer and begrudge anyone who voted leave and anyone who campaigned for leave because we're royally fucked right now.


The thing is though there was never ANYTHING that could've been done for us to have a "positive Brexit." It all hinges on 2 simple facts: The EU is the largest trading bloc in the world, we could never hope to remotely have as good a trade economy outside of it AND The EU isn't built in a way where you can be outside of it and remotely retain any of the positives you gain from being a member. The things the Leave campaign promised are actually impossible for the EU to give us. All of the various deals the gov is proposing can't happen, the EU is built in a way that doesn't allow them to happen. Everybody who did the research knew this already. There's a reason every single expert worth their salt said it'd be a disaster. The problem arose mostly from the "we're sick of experts, let's listen to the most incompetent mainstream politician in living memory (Nasty Nige) instead." If you're not going to listen to the people who actually know what they're talking about and instead make up fantasies in your head predicated on the former glories of an empire that no longer exists - this is what you get.


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## themuel1 (Feb 19, 2004)

It's all so depressing.

Given the way the majority of over 65's voted and the speed this is all playing out at, I do wonder how many of them will still be alive when the negotiations have actually finished.

Whilst the Remain campaign has been criticised, if you're dealing with people that claim politicians have an agenda whilst they believe Farage, The Sun and The Mail, as well as older people that seem to have solely voted because "they didn't get a vote to enter the EU", I'm not sure you could have reached those people with logic, facts and expert opinion presented and campaigned for well. 

After the stupidity of the overall vote, there are some people that now understand what their vote to leave meant but insist it doesn't matter if it will make Britain worse, it would be undemocratic to go against the tiny majority. So, even though people are waking up to the fact we as a nation marching towards a cliff edge and have ever intention to jump off, "we" voted for it, so we have to proceed. 

Should never ever have been a Referendum.


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## DoctorWhosawhatsit (Aug 23, 2016)

RavishingRickRules said:


> The problem arose mostly from the "we're sick of experts, let's listen to the most incompetent mainstream politician in living memory (Nasty Nige) instead." If you're not going to listen to the people who actually know what they're talking about and instead make up fantasies in your head predicated on the former glories of an empire that no longer exists - this is what you get.


That’s not just a problem in England though, it’s happening everywhere. There’s s rebellion happening against intelligence. Right wingers in America literally at times run on a platform of “who do these educated people think they are with their scientific data and facts?!”


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## Crasp (Feb 26, 2014)

I don't think there's any context in which Brexit wouldn't be a colossal fuck up. At this point I'm just trying to enjoy it, as there's at least _some_ perverse enjoyment to be found in watching it all transpire, without any burden of personal responsibility.


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## RavishingRickRules (Sep 22, 2016)

Crasp said:


> I don't think there's any context in which Brexit wouldn't be a colossal fuck up. At this point I'm just trying to enjoy it, as there's at least _some_ perverse enjoyment to be found in watching it all transpire, without any burden of personal responsibility.


I can't even get into that mentality tbh, a lot of my friends and family are in the lower working class and they're going to be hit hard. I've actually got a bunch of relatives moving back to Ireland over it and if my Italian grandparents weren't so old and frail we'd likely be taking them back to Sicily. It's the toughest part of it for me, seeing how it's affecting them. Both of them are over 90 and my Grandad had a stroke a couple years ago that sapped the life out of him. Now they're both confused and feel like they've become Pariahs and aren't welcome in a country they paid taxes in for decades. It's pretty upsetting.


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## Crasp (Feb 26, 2014)

RavishingRickRules said:


> I can't even get into that mentality tbh, a lot of my friends and family are in the lower working class and they're going to be hit hard. I've actually got a bunch of relatives moving back to Ireland over it and if my Italian grandparents weren't so old and frail we'd likely be taking them back to Sicily. It's the toughest part of it for me, seeing how it's affecting them. Both of them are over 90 and my Grandad had a stroke a couple years ago that sapped the life out of him. Now they're both confused and feel like they've become Pariahs and aren't welcome in a country they paid taxes in for decades. It's pretty upsetting.


I'd cetainly stress the "trying" aspect of trying to enjoy it, as it's not always that easy! 

While my circumstances mean there's far less of a direct impact for my friends/family compared to yourself (Parents have their mortgage paid off & collecting a decent pension, grandparents dead, etc), I worry about my daughter more than anything I guess, but it's going to effect most of her generation fairly equally anywa,y so more or less a level playing field.

I'm always going to find it hard to deal with the fact that while a lot of the working class (plenty of whom were hoodwinked into voting Brexit) are going to be hit worst, while the Borrises & Farages are going to be pretty much unscathed and probably even gain from it. I can only hold out hope that the more fucked things get, the better the odds of posive change, and hope that it's not an unstoppable societal downward spiral.


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## RavishingRickRules (Sep 22, 2016)

Crasp said:


> I'd cetainly stress the "trying" aspect of trying to enjoy it, as it's not always that easy!
> 
> While my circumstances mean there's far less of a direct impact for my friends/family compared to yourself (Parents have their mortgage paid off & collecting a decent pension, grandparents dead, etc), I worry about my daughter more than anything I guess, but it's going to effect most of her generation fairly equally anywa,y so more or less a level playing field.
> 
> I'm always going to find it hard to deal with the fact that while a lot of the working class (plenty of whom were hoodwinked into voting Brexit) are going to be hit worst, while the Borrises & Farages are going to be pretty much unscathed and probably even gain from it. I can only hold out hope that the more fucked things get, the better the odds of posive change, and hope that it's not an unstoppable societal downward spiral.


Yeah thankfully my immediate family are good, I helped my folks pay off their mortgage and I have one brother with serious mental health problems who lives with them, my other brother is a submariner in the navy. It's the extended family it's gonna mess up though and I have a LOT of extended family as both my paternal grandmother and great-grandmother had more than 10 children. We're probably moving though, my office has given me the opportunity to relocate to the continent so we'll likely do that before everything is finalised but I worry about leaving my folks as they're getting older. Convincing your parents to leave everything behind and move to another country is not the easiest thing to do in all honesty. 

The only people really gaining from Brexit are all of the tax-dodgers who've been pushing for this ever since the EU decided to crack down on them - it's easier to take the economy hit than pay taxes on their substantial incomes. There's a reason the vast majority of MP's voted against Brexit, not for. It's the tax-dodgers and the Rupert Murdoch types who look to gain, the majority of the "elites" didn't even want this because of how bad it'd be for the economy.


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## BRITLAND (Jun 17, 2012)

Theresa May is utterly useless as a Prime Minister, once was declared the new iron lady by the tabloids has all but lost it since the results of the June election last year when we all saw how weak she is domestically and internationally. She doesn't seem to have any good allies/friends among the world leader in Europe or the US (remember when some of the media were saying the relationship between Trump and May would be the new Reagan and Thatcher?) Only the CANZUK countries seem to have some time for her from what I've seen.

Here's an old story from back in February about a leadership challenge:
http://uk.businessinsider.com/boris...es-mogg-urged-to-overthrow-theresa-may-2018-2

Just imagine what a Brexit dream team led government with a brexit dominated cabinet would look like:


*Boris Johnson - Prime Minister* (Give him his dream job and sort out what he helped create, brexit, also called for freedom of movement between the UK and Australia, if he supports CANZUK and gets it created then we could always run away to Australia or Canada lol)
*Michael Gove - Deputy Prime Minister, First Secretary of State, Exiting the EU Secretary* (Would be Boris' right hand man, lets see if he's any better than Davis at the game)
*Jacob Rees-Mogg - Chancellor of the Exchequer* (would probably bring back the gold standard)
*David Davis - Foreign Secretary* (lets give him another foreign affairs brief and see how he does, would be interesting to see if he keeps his libertarian values (human rights) when visiting the US and China)
*Iain Duncan Smith - Home Secretary* (put him in charge of immigration reform and making plans for EU nationals here and Brits abroad in Europe, would likely go all Trump)
*Andrew Rosindell - Leader of the House of Commons* (Patriotic Englishman and Briton, a federalist who has advocated for an English Parliament which is cool I guess and has made various private bills that required flags and portraits of the HM The Queen at all airports as well as dedicated channels at airports for commonwealth citizens)
*Penny Mordaunt - Defence Secretary* (Has some history in defence, a brexiteer and female, might get some good PR out of it)
*Priti Patel - Justice Secretary* (No law experience but supports capital punishment, so what's not to love? )
*Graham Brady - Education Secretary* (Head of 1922 committee and is very Tory, perfect for reforming the education system, could also introduce an American style pledge of allegiance to Queen and Country that all pupils will recite at the start of school)
*Nadhim Zahawi - International Trade Secretary* (Think he had a career in business, could make trade deals in favour of big business, maybe)
*Andrea Leadsom - Business Secretary* (Had career in the City, she should be able to make businesses confident that they will thrive in Brexit Britain)
*Esther McVey - Work & Pensions Secretary* (Female IDS on steroids, even more cuts to DLA to appeal to C2 working class brexiteers and angry pensioners who advocate placing welfare users in concentrations camps and exterminating them)
*Adam Afriyie - Environment Secretary* (No clue what his stance is but the job is his, Goldsmith could get it but he kinda cares about it so that's a big no no)
*Chris Grayling - Housing & Communities Secretary* (Boring job for boring politician) 
*Zac Goldsmith - Transport Secretary* (Ran unsuccessfully for Mayor of London which has huge role over Transport for London, could see his London proposals brought to the wider UK, whatever they are)
*Dominic Raab - International Development Secretary* (Brexiteer who appears alot on political programming but never got a cabinet job, lets give him one and he can do whatever he wants since its DFID)
*John Whittingdale - Media, Culture, Sport Secretary* (Had role previously, strongly opposed to license fee but kept it in last BBC charter likely due to centrist Cameron, could go all the way and privatise BBC and Channel 4)
*Ross Thompson - Scotland Secretary* (One of few Scottish politicians to back brexit, debates between him and Bute House would be interesting)
*David Jones - Wales Secretary* (one of Wales' top hardline Brexiteers and well on the right of the party)
*Theresa Villiers - Northern Ireland Secretary* (Was NI Secretary before and supported Brexit, she should be able to find a solution to the Irish border, right?)
*Kwasi Kwarteng - Chief Secretary to the Treasury* (dubbed by some media outlets as the 'Black Boris')
*David Davies - Immigration Minister* (on the far right of the party, he and IDS would get on well and would have big influence over immigration reform)
*Philip Davies - Women and Equalities Minister* (because lol)

Seems horrifying but part of me would love to see the fuckary that happens and to see them get to work and make a brexit a success as they said it would be. Just imagine if they failed and had to tell us why they couldn't achieve the Great British dream :cry


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## Crasp (Feb 26, 2014)

If that had been the current government I'd have emigrated to France or Australia already.


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## RavishingRickRules (Sep 22, 2016)

BRITLAND said:


> Theresa May is utterly useless as a Prime Minister, once was declared the new iron lady by the tabloids has all but lost it since the results of the June election last year when we all saw how weak she is domestically and internationally. She doesn't seem to have any good allies/friends among the world leader in Europe or the US (remember when some of the media were saying the relationship between Trump and May would be the new Reagan and Thatcher?) Only the CANZUK countries seem to have some time for her from what I've seen.
> 
> Here's an old story from back in February about a leadership challenge:
> http://uk.businessinsider.com/boris...es-mogg-urged-to-overthrow-theresa-may-2018-2
> ...


The bold is a forgone conclusion, there is no way to succeed at Brexit. It's literally impossible to make us a better country post Brexit than we've been in the EU. Interesting to note that the one mainstream politician who'd flat out stop Brexit on his own back is Vince Cable - a Cambridge graduate and former fellow with a phd in economics. Corbyn's history is in Unions and journalism and May's got a 2nd in business. I don't think it's hard to see why I'd put Cable over both of them. :lol


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## deepelemblues (Sep 26, 2011)

But really, so what?

Britain got along quite well in the past having to request extradition. 

All this petulant behavior from the EU is to me further argument for Brexit, look at the contempt and ill-will the masters of the Continent hold towards the United Kingdom. Why should any of the UK's sovereign powers be submitted to such people? Why would any sane, self-respecting person _want_ political union with such people? Because "I like getting to travel to Spain without hassle and I'll make more money!" 

Sounds selfish and short-sighted and betrays a lack of self-confidence to me. Of course if governments in Europe didn't have their hands and most of their arms faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar up the ass of their economies, political structures like the EU would not have such power. No need for the EU for there to be free trade and easy travel across borders. Once again we see the drawbacks of the interventionist State. You Continentals have boxed yourself in politically and economically. At the behest of the "experts." 

This crypto-technocratic appeal to "experts" is quite amusing though considering the extremely long list of "expert" failures in government, including the current debilitating failure and near-future total failure of the European Union itself thanks to politicians listening to "experts" and not the people. Carry on thinking those "experts" are adept at prescribing policy :lmao


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## RavishingRickRules (Sep 22, 2016)

deepelemblues said:


> But really, so what?
> 
> Britain got along quite well in the past having to request extradition.
> 
> ...


If you knew anything at all about the UK economy you'd realise there is no good argument for Brexit. It's only ever a losing situation. How are we going to stand on our own two feet when we don't produce anything? Our economy is built around being the financial services provider for the EU, are you saying America and Canada are going to let us do their financial services for them instead? We don't fit any niche outside of the EU, we don't produce anything at a scale large enough to replace that knock to our economy. See this is exactly my point, you're somebody who doesn't know what they're talking about and I'm supposed to listen to you over people with phd's in economics who actually know the variables at play here? Please.


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## Laughable Chimp (Sep 1, 2016)

deepelemblues said:


> But really, so what?
> 
> Britain got along quite well in the past having to request extradition.
> 
> ...


“Why do I have to listen to what doctors say? Doctors have been wrong so many times in the past, surely I’m more qualified to decide what’s good and not good for my own body. Fuck the doctors”. 

Is essentially supported by the same argument you’re providing but this time instead of your body, its an entire continent that’s getting affected.


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## RavishingRickRules (Sep 22, 2016)

Laughable Chimp said:


> “Why do I have to listen to what doctors say? Doctors have been wrong so many times in the past, surely I’m more qualified to decide what’s good and not good for my own body. Fuck the doctors”.
> 
> Is essentially supported by the same argument you’re providing but this time instead of your body, its an entire continent that’s getting affected.


Never mind that he's parroting talking points put forward by idiots like Nigel Farage and Boris Johnson who's entire argument basically comes down to "we're Great Britain, bulldog spirit, stiff upper lip and the British Empire!" with absolutely nothing of substance to it. "Sovereign powers" when it was the UK putting forward more laws to the EU than any other country in the bloc and the fact that we've been rejecting EU laws for it's entire existence as is a member state's right in the first place. At least we know when it comes to UK/EU politics deepelemblues is not to be taken remotely seriously as he's getting his talking points from the clueless populists who lead the idiot masses to vote for this disaster in the first place I guess. :lol


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## deepelemblues (Sep 26, 2011)

Laughable Chimp said:


> “Why do I have to listen to what doctors say? Doctors have been wrong so many times in the past, surely I’m more qualified to decide what’s good and not good for my own body. Fuck the doctors”.
> 
> Is essentially supported by the same argument you’re providing but this time instead of your body, its an entire continent that’s getting affected.


What a foolish and silly attempt at argument.

Let's leave out for a moment the greatest most recent instance of doctors being wrong, the obesity epidemic in the West that is in large part thanks to medical experts incorrectly demonizing fat and not paying attention to the dangers of processed carbohydrates. This is the largest health issue facing Western countries and was partially caused by "doctors" working with, you guessed it, governments. 

We'll just leave that colossal failure with extremely dangerous consequences, the mistakes of doctors is not really relevant here.

What is relevant is that you are attempting to compare one discipline, that of medical science, to another, that of political science. 

It should be obvious that one is an apple and one is an orange, but apparently it is _not_ obvious to you. Unfortunate, but unfortunate things are to be expected in political discussion. 

Now one is a more or less exact science that relies on observation of cause and effect, quantifiable (though still largely inexact in many cases, but not inexact enough to matter) evidence and causal factors. A world of facts and figures. This would be the realm of doctors.

On the other hand you have the realm of head-candlers. Now we are talking about politics, about human nature and personality, about perception and faith and emotion. Sorry but there is no exact or even inexact science for that, with established laws and certain predictability. There is no comparison to be made between experts that deal in physical realities, which usually do conform to certain consistent laws, and experts that deal in human behavior, which conforms to only one law: that the laws are always changing. Doctors and political policy "experts" are as alike as hamburgers and Tuesday. 

You're bad and you should feel bad for being so bad at what you attempted to do here.


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## Laughable Chimp (Sep 1, 2016)

deepelemblues said:


> What a foolish and silly attempt at argument.
> 
> Let's leave out for a moment the greatest most recent instance of doctors being wrong, the obesity epidemic in the West that is in large part thanks to medical experts incorrectly demonizing fat and not paying attention to the dangers of processed carbohydrates. This is the largest health issue facing Western countries and was partially caused by "doctors" working with, you guessed it, governments.
> 
> ...


Lol, I don’t need to write 5 paragraphs to rebutt this.

Whatever discipline, you have experts in that discpline. These people are the best in their field and have the best skills and knowledge to handle problems in their field. The subjectivity of their field does not matter in the slightest. Otherwise, what’s the point of being an expert in political science? Is all that knowledge useless? Who are you to say you know better than the experts in that field. Only a fool would say that and you know it.


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## deepelemblues (Sep 26, 2011)

RavishingRickRules said:


> Never mind that he's parroting talking points put forward by idiots like Nigel Farage and Boris Johnson who's entire argument basically comes down to "we're Great Britain, bulldog spirit, stiff upper lip and the British Empire!" with absolutely nothing of substance to it. "Sovereign powers" when it was the UK putting forward more laws to the EU than any other country in the bloc and the fact that we've been rejecting EU laws for it's entire existence as is a member state's right in the first place. At least we know when it comes to UK/EU politics deepelemblues is not to be taken remotely seriously as he's getting his talking points from the clueless populists who lead the idiot masses to vote for this disaster in the first place I guess. :lol


What a pathetic sneering rant. 

If you were not so ignorant as to imagine that you can ignore history, you would remember that what you deride as "bulldog spirit, stiff upper lip and the British Empire!" has been responsible for far more great events than has the enervated presumption to rule of your class, which has proudly taken up the fallen mantle of the hereditary aristocracy.

The UK putting forward more laws to the EU and rejecting EU laws from the beginning of its membership does not erase areas where the UK submitted to EU laws and regulations. Exerting sovereign prerogatives in one area does not proscribe submitting them in other areas. Obviously the UK did so in a manner that a great many of its people did not agree with. Your apparent solution to their discontent is to tell them to shut their dumb mouths and deal with it. How you did not understand the consequences of such hubris is a mystery, considering your self-presentation as superior in knowledge and intellect. 

At least we know when it comes to UK/EU politics, or any politics, your grasp of the fundamentals is so deliberately narrow that nothing you say is to be taken as anything other than the desperate sneer of a degenerated ruling class that cannot deal like adults with a loosening of its grip on power. 

Despite your hysterical attempts to frighten the people back into leaving power to you and not raising a fuss no matter how stupid your decisions are, Britain will be just fine.


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## CamillePunk (Feb 10, 2011)

RavishingRickRules said:


> The bold is a forgone conclusion, there is no way to succeed at Brexit. It's literally impossible to make us a better country post Brexit than we've been in the EU.


That's a sad statement. Sounds like you guys need someone like Trump to revive your national spirit and introduce some positive thinking.


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## RavishingRickRules (Sep 22, 2016)

CamillePunk said:


> That's a sad statement. Sounds like you guys need someone like Trump to revive your national spirit and introduce some positive thinking.


National spirit means fuck all when your country doesn't produce anything of value and the one thing you excel at, nobody outside of the EU is asking for (financial services.) National pride is all well and good, but it doesn't put food on the table. Besides, hard to be proud of a country that doesn't want anything to do with every generation of my family outside of my own  .


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## Laughable Chimp (Sep 1, 2016)

deepelemblues said:


> What a pathetic sneering rant.
> 
> If you were not so ignorant as to imagine that you can ignore history, you would remember that what you deride as "bulldog spirit, stiff upper lip and the British Empire!" has been responsible for far more great events than has the enervated presumption to rule of your class, which has proudly taken up the fallen mantle of the hereditary aristocracy.
> 
> ...


You didn't counter my point. All you did was kind of criticize me and my argument without actually countering it then launch straight into a rant why Brexit is good which I wasn't arguing in the first place nor am I interested in arguing.

How am I supposed to argue against someone who changes his arguments when it suits him?


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## deepelemblues (Sep 26, 2011)

Laughable Chimp said:


> Lol, I don’t need to write 5 paragraphs to rebutt this.
> 
> Whatever discipline, you have experts in that discpline. These people are the best in their field and have the best skills and knowledge to handle problems in their field. The subjectivity of their field does not matter in the slightest. Otherwise, what’s the point of being an expert in political science? Is all that knowledge useless? Who are you to say you know better than the experts in that field. Only a fool would say that and you know it.


This is the level of critical thinking we have nowadays fpalm

The subjectivity of a field certainly _does_ matter, no matter how much you wish to handwave that consideration away. How could it not? The more subjective a field, the wider the range of justifiable conclusions. 2 + 2 will always be 4. That is an objective field. Politics is not an objective field, never has been, never will be. 

I don't know what the point to being a trained expert in political science is, considering how often such trained experts are _wrong._ Perhaps because they are human beings, with their own preferences and biases. 

Or do you really think that experts in political science examine political questions the way a doctor examines a patient? If you think that... wow. The ignorance and naivete. 

Is all that knowledge useless? Did I say that no? No. What is useless is your slavish worship of that knowledge. 

Who am I to say I know better? Someone who has not been incorrect as often as they have been, for one. I did not incorrectly predict the result of the last US presidential election, or the Brexit referendum, or the Scottish independence referendum, as the majority of political experts did. I did not incorrectly pooh-pooh the idea the German position on migrant policy would cause political upheaval across the entire Continent. These are serious and weighty events, where the experts were wrong. Going back further, the consensus of political experts in the early and mid 1980s was the Soviet Union was on solid footing, and the Reagan/Thatcher policies of confrontation and competition were misguided and doomed to failure. They were wrong yet again. Expert political opinion in the United States believed that the People's Liberation Army would never cross the Yalu River in force to save North Korea from the advancing United Nations armies. Wrong. Expert political opinion considered the chances that yet another diplomatic flare-up in the Balkans of causing a general European war in 1914 as slim to none. Wrong again. I could go back farther. Expert political opinion in Great Britain at the time of the American Emancipation Proclamation was that the result of the Proclamation would be a bloody and ruinous race war. No such race war occurred. I could go on at extreme length detailing the failures of expertise in politics. 

Your genuflection at the altar of expertise on non-physical questions is a practice that is already moldering in the ash heap of history.


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## CamillePunk (Feb 10, 2011)

RavishingRickRules said:


> National spirit means fuck all when your country doesn't produce anything of value and the one thing you excel at, nobody outside of the EU is asking for (financial services.) National pride is all well and good, but it doesn't put food on the table. Besides, hard to be proud of a country that doesn't want anything to do with every generation of my family outside of my own  .


This is why you need a Trump. Someone with the negotiating and persuasion talent to manufacture assets out of thin air. Your thinking is far too constrained, much like the people who said it would be impossible for Trump to do any number of the things he's already done despite unprecedented opposition.


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## Laughable Chimp (Sep 1, 2016)

deepelemblues said:


> This is the level of critical thinking we have nowadays fpalm
> 
> The subjectivity of a field certainly _does_ matter, no matter how much you wish to handwave that consideration away. How could it not? The more subjective a field, the wider the range of justifiable conclusions. 2 + 2 will always be 4. That is an objective field. Politics is not an objective field, never has been, never will be.
> 
> ...


So, what you’re saying is, that because the field is so subjective, that different experts can have many different conclusions so you cannot rely on experts?

But then, isn’t it incredibly damning that despite the subjectivity of political science, that so many different experts have with all their different lines of thinking have almost all come to the same conclusion about Brexit?

Your point about subjectivity can only apply if different experts are all reaching different subjective conclusions. However, in this case near all of them are reaching the same conclusion on this topic that it is for all intents and purposes and objective conclusion. Is it not foolish to completely overlook the conclusion of all these experts?


----------



## BRITLAND (Jun 17, 2012)

Crasp said:


> If that had been the current government I'd have emigrated to France or Australia already.


Immigrate? But you haven't even seen the 'Make Britain Great Again' manifesto the govt would run on, hand written of course by the hard right tory backbenchers and rural pensioners who make up the membership of the party:
https://www.conservativehome.com/th...s-speech-the-full-list-of-40-rebel-bills.html

Putting the Great back in Britain!











RavishingRickRules said:


> The bold is a forgone conclusion, there is no way to succeed at Brexit. It's literally impossible to make us a better country post Brexit than we've been in the EU. Interesting to note that the one mainstream politician who'd flat out stop Brexit on his own back is Vince Cable - a Cambridge graduate and former fellow with a phd in economics. Corbyn's history is in Unions and journalism and May's got a 2nd in business. I don't think it's hard to see why I'd put Cable over both of them. :lol


Hey at least we're getting our blue passports back! Very important matter you know!









Also I thought May was a Geography student at Oxford?


----------



## RavishingRickRules (Sep 22, 2016)

BRITLAND said:


> Immigrate? But you haven't even seen the 'Make Britain Great Again' manifesto the govt would run on, hand written of course by the hard right tory backbenchers and rural pensioners who make up the membership of the party:
> https://www.conservativehome.com/th...s-speech-the-full-list-of-40-rebel-bills.html
> 
> Putting the Great back in Britain!
> ...


Oh was it Geography? I misread and thought it said she had a business degree. I think that makes it worse no? A 2nd in Geography? I'll take a phd in economics over that any and every day of the week.


----------



## Unorthodox (Jan 8, 2013)

We all knew this was gonna happen really, people who voted leave had no bloody idea what they were even voting for which makes them even more stupid. You know it was a daft idea when the main backers of brexit were the likes of Nigel Farage and Boris Johnson who didn't even have a clue themselves what a mess it would leave us in and they are so called politicians :lmao


----------



## FatherJackHackett (Apr 11, 2016)

An awful lot of casual snobbery in this thread.

I've written some long posts on this topic in the past and so frankly can't be bothered to do it all again here, but if people are seriously positing that there were no valid reasons to vote for Brexit then they are just as uninformed and uneducated as they accuse Leave voters of being.

Basically we will likely never know whether Brexit would have been a success due to the actions of the political class, who have ensured that it has been a complete shit show from the start with their determination to derail it at every possible juncture. This is something we all should be able to come together on, not continue to squabble and bicker about like children. They're fucking Remainers over along with the Leavers - we're all citizens of this country after all.


----------



## BRITLAND (Jun 17, 2012)

RavishingRickRules said:


> Oh was it Geography? I misread and thought it said she had a business degree. I think that makes it worse no? A 2nd in Geography? I'll take a phd in economics over that any and every day of the week.


Yeah, second class Geography degree, graduated in 1977. Doesn't strike me as a Geography graduate tbh. I thought she would care alot about the environment, not that May is one of those crazy climate change deniers but she did scrap the Dept. for Energy and Climate Change when she got into office and the plastic straw ban thing I'm sure was something Gove pushed for.

In other Brexit news:
https://twitter.com/nickeardleybbc/status/

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1009359698762567681

Would be nice if London and Northern Ireland were included since they voted remain in big numbers, Edinburgh and Glasgow are also the only other UK cities that make the top 50 of the Global Financial Centres Index (with London at no.1), Scotland being the only single market member of the UK could give those cities and the country a really big boost, Edinburgh is also quite regularly voted the UK's no.1 city to live in too, lots of opportunity for the city if such a thing were to happen.

Obviously one would imagine the UK govt wouldn't tolerate such an unpatriotic policy with Dacre and Farage on his LBC show having mass heart attacks, but then again if the EU were keen on having a part of the UK in the single market I guess May and Davis would back down as they always do :ha


----------



## Draykorinee (Aug 4, 2015)

The reasons for voting Brexit we're always outweighed by the sheer gamble that you were voting for. Remain voters voted for the status quo and the security of the continued sustained growth seen in the EU, Leave voters voted to get are country back. Well, we got it back, and its a bit shit.


----------



## themuel1 (Feb 19, 2004)

FatherJackHackett said:


> An awful lot of casual snobbery in this thread.
> 
> I've written some long posts on this topic in the past and so frankly can't be bothered to do it all again here, but if people are seriously positing that there were no valid reasons to vote for Brexit then they are just as uninformed and uneducated as they accuse Leave voters of being.
> 
> Basically we will likely never know whether Brexit would have been a success due to the actions of the political class, who have ensured that it has been a complete shit show from the start with their determination to derail it at every possible juncture. This is something we all should be able to come together on, not continue to squabble and bicker about like children. They're fucking Remainers over along with the Leavers - we're all citizens of this country after all.


In your opinion, what were the economic reasons that voting leave made sense?


----------



## sewagerat (Feb 26, 2015)

ka4life1 said:


> This was always going to happen.
> 
> Its all about divide and conquer its what the Tory party has always been about,
> You see it with the massive political age divide within the UK, You see it with Disabled People pretty much getting the blame for a global recession instead of the banks and middle classes, *The Scots,* Little Englanders,Londoners and second generation Immigrants who supports Brexit.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36616028 Are you sure about that? 
:cena


----------



## Ninja Hedgehog (Mar 22, 2018)

CamillePunk said:


> This is why you need a Trump. Someone with the negotiating and persuasion talent to manufacture assets out of thin air. Your thinking is far too constrained, much like the people who said it would be impossible for Trump to do any number of the things he's already done despite unprecedented opposition.


Britain: Help!! Our house is burning down!

CamillePunk: Have you tried pouring petrol all over it??? It might make things better


We have enough idiotic, racist politicians of our own thanks. Don't need a Trump



themuel1 said:


> In your opinion, what were the economic reasons that voting leave made sense?


It's like you've completely forgotten about the bananas thing already.

And, as someone else pointed out earlier, we're getting BLUE PASSPORTS!!! No way we could have those without leaving. Oh, we could?? Ah well :lol


----------



## CamillePunk (Feb 10, 2011)

Ninja_Hedgehog said:


> Britain: Help!! Our house is burning down!
> 
> CamillePunk: Have you tried pouring petrol all over it??? It might make things better
> 
> ...


Our house is doing quite fine under Trump.


----------



## Draykorinee (Aug 4, 2015)

Ninja_Hedgehog said:


> It's like you've completely forgotten about the bananas thing already.
> 
> And, as someone else pointed out earlier, we're getting BLUE PASSPORTS!!! No way we could have those without leaving. Oh, we could?? Ah well :lol












Every remainers worst nightmare, look whats coming in! (This was changed in 2009 but idiots still bought it hook line and sinker)


----------



## Ninja Hedgehog (Mar 22, 2018)

CamillePunk said:


> Our house is doing quite fine under Trump.


Of course it is. How are you guys getting along with reuniting those children with their parents?


----------



## CamillePunk (Feb 10, 2011)

Ninja_Hedgehog said:


> Of course it is. How are you guys getting along with reuniting those children with their parents?


People should be more worried about what will happen to them when they're forced to go back to their drug cartel-ran hellhole of a country. I imagine an ICE facility is paradise compared to that.


----------



## Ninja Hedgehog (Mar 22, 2018)

CamillePunk said:


> People should be more worried about what will happen to them when they're forced to go back to their *drug cartel-ran hellhole of a country*. I imagine an ICE facility is paradise compared to that.


It's almost like they were trying to get to America to better their own lives. They must have heard about that American Dream thing.

Oh sorry, that doesn't apply to foreigners anymore. My mistake.

So, you're also going to gloss over the fact that the man lied through his teeth about stopping tiny children being ripped away for their families? He constantly claimed that it was all Congress and there was nothing he could do. Then miraculously he signed that EO and it stopped. How strange.

Anyway, I fear we are derailing a topic about the fucked up government in the UK. Now is not the time to talk about Great & Powerful Leader Kim-Don Trump


----------



## CamillePunk (Feb 10, 2011)

Ninja_Hedgehog said:


> It's almost like they were trying to get to America to better their own lives. They must have heard about that American Dream thing.
> 
> Oh sorry, that doesn't apply to foreigners anymore. My mistake.


Apology accepted. 



> So, you're also going to gloss over the fact that the man lied through his teeth about stopping tiny children being ripped away for their families? He constantly claimed that it was all Congress and there was nothing he could do. Then miraculously he signed that EO and it stopped. How strange.


He did lie, because the executive order doesn't actually do anything. :lol He can't stop it. Back when the Obama administration wanted to keep parents and children held together in custody, they were shut down by the courts which is why its currently policy to have them separated (and has been since before Trump took office). Any attempt Trump makes to end the separation will also be struck down. He's just trying to quell the ignorant, uninformed public outrage, instigated by the press to make up for the utter collapse of the Russian collusion narrative and the revelations that the FBI was trying to sabotage Trump's election campaign.


----------



## Ninja Hedgehog (Mar 22, 2018)

CamillePunk said:


> Apology accepted.


:eyeroll



CamillePunk said:


> He did lie, because the executive order doesn't actually do anything. :lol He can't stop it. Back when the Obama administration wanted to keep parents and children held together in custody, they were shut down by the courts which is why its currently policy to have them separated (and has been since before Trump took office). Any attempt Trump makes to end the separation will also be struck down. He's just trying to quell the ignorant, uninformed public outrage, instigated by the press to make up for the utter collapse of the Russian collusion narrative and the revelations that the FBI was trying to sabotage Trump's election campaign.


Jesus! You really just believe anything that Fox/Trump tells you don't you?


----------



## CamillePunk (Feb 10, 2011)

Ninja_Hedgehog said:


> Jesus! You really just believe anything that Fox/Trump tells you don't you?


Everything I said there is verifiable fact, except of course for the speculation about the media's motives. That's just me reading between the lines. 

Also I literally began that post by saying Trump did lie, so no, clearly I don't believe everything he says. :lol


----------



## Ninja Hedgehog (Mar 22, 2018)

CamillePunk said:


> Everything I said there is verifiable fact, except of course for the speculation about the media's motives. That's just me reading between the lines.
> 
> Also I literally began that post by saying Trump did lie, so no, clearly I don't believe everything he says. :lol


"Trump has responded to criticisms of family separation by claiming that a “Democratic law” requires him to do it, and that if Congress doesn’t like it, they can change the law.

This is not true. There is no law that requires immigrant families to be separated. The decision to charge everyone crossing the border with illegal entry — and the decision to charge asylum seekers in criminal court rather than waiting to see if they qualify for asylum — are both decisions the Trump administration has made.

Other administration officials back up Trump by pointing to the laws that give extra protections to families, unaccompanied children, and asylum seekers. The administration has been asking Congress to change these laws since it came into office, and has blamed them for stopping Trump from securing the border the way he’d like. (Those aren’t “Democratic laws” either; the law addressing unaccompanied children was passed overwhelmingly in 2008 and signed by George W. Bush, while the restriction on detaining families is a result of federal litigation.)

In that context, the law isn’t forcing Trump to separate families; it’s keeping Trump from doing what he’d perhaps really like to do, which is simply sending families back or keeping them in detention together, and so he has had to resort to plan B."



We really need to stop talking about a scumbag Dictator, as this thread is supposed to be about Brexit. I'm sure you'll want the last word though


----------



## Reaper (Sep 4, 2013)

Why does this:










Remind me so much of this:


----------



## BRITLAND (Jun 17, 2012)

Reap said:


> Why does this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Being a royalist is one thing but does Theresa really need to bow like that? It's just William ffs he won't be King till like the 2040s at least, assuming the monarchy is still a thing then (you never know King Charles and Queen Camilla Parker Bowles could very well toxify Buckingham Palace and public opinion about the Monarchy).

I always wondered what would happen if we had a Trump style Prime Minister who openingly bashed and talked shit about the royals in public, somewhat similar to Piers but more 'offensive', especially to Charles, Philip and Andrew. It would provide me with a good amount of lols :lol


----------



## Draykorinee (Aug 4, 2015)

The BBC going to BBC

What will brexit mean for dogs.


----------



## Stadhart02 (Aug 31, 2016)

ka4life1 said:


> This was always going to happen.
> 
> Something else the 52% obviously forgot to tell us about,
> Honestly i don't know if my resentment for them will ever leave me completely.
> ...


I always enjoy listening to Remainers whinge plus I suspect you get your ideas from your teacher


----------



## samizayn (Apr 25, 2011)

Fuck business anyway!


----------



## ka4life1 (Mar 2, 2014)

Stadhart02 said:


> I always enjoy listening to Remainers whinge plus I suspect you get your ideas from your teacher


I'm 28 so its been awhile since i had a teacher,
I do like a good whinge though so you are correct in that statement,

Although the fact i preemptively had to find a new job when the referendum result was announced,
Gives me a right to whinge i feel.

Seeing as you enjoy listening to a good whinge,
Please feel free to ask me any questions about why i hold my 'remainer' beliefs and i will be more than happy to share them with you.

Have a good evening Sir.


----------



## Stadhart02 (Aug 31, 2016)

ka4life1 said:


> I'm 28 so its been awhile since i had a teacher,
> I do like a good whinge though so you are correct in that statement,
> 
> Although the fact i preemptively had to find a new job when the referendum result was announced,
> ...



Ok fair play to you then

I get sick of listening to retarded school aged kids banging on about it (GMB had some utter fool on last week chatting utter crap)

either way I think a fudge is on the cards that will piss off both sides and the Tories will be fucked for a generation (if they ever recover)


----------



## Ninja Hedgehog (Mar 22, 2018)

Stadhart02 said:


> Ok fair play to you then
> 
> I get sick of listening to retarded school aged kids banging on about it (GMB had some utter fool on last week chatting utter crap)
> 
> either way I think a fudge is on the cards that will piss off both sides and the *Tories will be fucked for a generation (if they ever recover)*


So Brexit isn't all bad then. Just mostly bad


----------



## 2 Ton 21 (Dec 28, 2011)

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-44761056



> *Brexit Secretary David Davis resigns*
> 
> Brexit Secretary David Davis has resigned from the UK government.
> 
> ...


----------



## Draykorinee (Aug 4, 2015)

What a laughing stock we are.

At least the football's coming home.


----------



## BRITLAND (Jun 17, 2012)

Boris Johnson has now resigned as Foreign Secretary!
https://news.sky.com/story/live-the...id-davis-resigns-as-brexit-secretary-11430763

Even more brexit fuckery! I wouldn't be surprised if Liam Fox and Andrea Leadsom resign too! Maybe Sajid at some point if May goes for the rumoured UK-EU migration deal!

So much fuckery!


----------



## Draykorinee (Aug 4, 2015)

:Trump

Strong and stable.

kay2


----------



## MOX (Dec 6, 2011)

The Thick of It currently trending on Twitter thanks to all this nonsense. :banderas


----------



## deepelemblues (Sep 26, 2011)

Are you ready for prime minister BORIS


----------



## Blackbeard (Apr 23, 2014)

If we end up with Boris Johnson as PM fpalm


----------



## deepelemblues (Sep 26, 2011)

I don't get why Britain decided to try and succeed at outdoing America for worst most inept female politicians ever

Hillary Clinton is a retard but she's a rich retard and was a very influential retard for a long time 

Theresa May is... just a retard 

Just because we colonials broke off the yoke of your tyrannical Crown and supplanted you in the world doesn't mean you should try to do outdo us in things that you shouldn't want to be outdoing anyone in. We were quite happy to provide the worst most inept female politician among the English-speaking peoples, we had it covered, we had her but we didn't actually put her dumb ass in charge of the country! smdh


----------



## Sensei Utero (May 1, 2016)

Boris resigning :bosque

all these parties fucking things up :bosque


----------



## deepelemblues (Sep 26, 2011)

The tories are mostly some weird blairite monstrosity in their outlook towards the country and the party needs to be burned to the ground and built back up from the foundations

Labour is well on it's way to shedding its blairite monstrosity skin but underneath is some rotting 1970s socialist monstrosity skin. But at least eventually they'll burn themselves down to the ground, as socialists do


----------



## Blackbeard (Apr 23, 2014)

deepelemblues said:


> I don't get why Britain decided to try and succeed at outdoing America for worst most inept female politicians ever
> 
> Hillary Clinton is a retard but she's a rich retard and was a very influential retard for a long time
> 
> ...


It's not my fault those eejits south of the wall keep voting for the Tories :draper2


----------



## BRITLAND (Jun 17, 2012)

deepelemblues said:


> Are you ready for prime minister BORIS





Phil Brooks - Mixed Martial Artist said:


> If we end up with Boris Johnson as PM <img src="http://i.imgur.com/FA2CI9v.gif" border="0" alt="" title="fpalm" class="inlineimg" />


I think Prime Minister Jacob Rees-Mogg is more likely at this point. He's head of the European Reform Group within the Conservatives and considered more of a brexit God than Boris at this stage. He's also the most popular MP among Conservative party members so if he makes the final two of the leadership election (if May were to lose a confidence vote, I think it'll be one brexiteer and one remainer like Hunt or Sajid) he'll have it in the bag. Just imagine Trump and Rees-Mogg side by side...


Maybe Boris will be Chancellor, he and Rees-Mogg would make quite the team...


----------



## UniversalGleam (Jan 30, 2017)

well you gotta rid of theresa to make room for the football cause its comin home innit.

its like when yer nan is coming round to stay and she needs a room and theresa has been chosen to fuck off on the blow up bed.

in all seriousness though, she fucked it. I saw that mogg fellow a few weeks back, drove past me in a greenhouse of car looking like harry potters dad. Looks like the sort of chap that enjoys trains and running a croquet club.


----------



## Tag89 (Jul 27, 2014)

ah yes, good old jrm

the honourable gentleman of 1807

can't wait for the re-introduction of hanging, re-instating workhouses & war with france when he's PM


----------



## deepelemblues (Sep 26, 2011)

Tag89 said:


> ah yes, good old jrm
> 
> the honourable gentleman of 1807
> 
> can't wait for the re-introduction of hanging, re-instating workhouses & war with france when he's PM


every true citizen of the empire and subject of the Crown should want to bring back hanging to stop those street urchins robbing noble ladies on the strand 

where will the next dickens get his material without workhouses i ask

and the french have been allowed to live with their errant belief that they are the rightful rulers of great king henry II's continental domains for too long. this so called king macron must be limited to his proper domains in the ile-de-france. the duke of burgundy could easily be persuaded to enter alliance against the foul french, if reinstated foreign minister boris's emissaries reach him in time


----------



## Tag89 (Jul 27, 2014)

also


----------



## Shepard (Apr 30, 2011)

really excited we triggered article 50 and put a deadline on us leaving the eu even though we hadn't and still don't have any fucking clue what our plan post brexit is

just a+ stuff from all concerned here but at least we're GETTING OUR COUNTRY BACK right


----------



## Draykorinee (Aug 4, 2015)

Shepard said:


> really excited we triggered article 50 and put a deadline on us leaving the eu even though we hadn't and still don't have any fucking clue what our plan post brexit is
> 
> just a+ stuff from all concerned here but at least we're GETTING OUR COUNTRY BACK right


We got are country back!


----------



## deepelemblues (Sep 26, 2011)

This is one - maybe the one - area where Corbyn would be better, he'd make up a plan and fight for it like a cornered raccoon. At least then there'd be a clear vision to support or oppose

Unlike may doing her best 1936-37 chamberlain impression, adrift and lost and trying to have all things all ways


----------



## BRITLAND (Jun 17, 2012)

Jeremy Hunt is the new Foreign Secretary, never thought I'd see him leave Health. He could be the remain candidate for the leadership if May goes.


----------



## Tag89 (Jul 27, 2014)

draykorinee said:


> We got are country back!


gammon faces on standby


----------



## BRITLAND (Jun 17, 2012)

Tag89 said:


> gammon faces on standby


I wonder what that chap on QT last Thursday who said it would all be sorted on Friday is thinking to himself right now...


----------



## Draykorinee (Aug 4, 2015)

BRITLAND said:


> Jeremy Hunt is the new Foreign Secretary, never thought I'd see him leave Health. He could be the remain candidate for the leadership if May goes.


He made a trainwreck of the NHS, I'm glad he's leaving us, maybe hell suit foreign Secretary more.


----------



## BRITLAND (Jun 17, 2012)

draykorinee said:


> He made a trainwreck of the NHS, I'm glad he's leaving us, maybe hell suit foreign Secretary more.


I'm sure he'll be much more suited to the role than Boris... but that's not much saying much.


----------



## Death Rider (May 18, 2011)

Shepard said:


> really excited we triggered article 50 and put a deadline on us leaving the eu even though we hadn't and still don't have any fucking clue what our plan post brexit is
> 
> just a+ stuff from all concerned here but at least we're GETTING OUR COUNTRY BACK right


This. Such a fucking mess. These incompetent morons had no plans for leaving the EU and will fuck the country for years.


----------



## Seb (Jun 13, 2007)

Bit of a shambles really. Was always going to happen with a remain voter trying to lead us out of the EU. She should've gone after that calamitous snap GE - does anyone like her? :lol

Just pull out with no deal. We were never going to get much back from the EU because they're scared of other countries doing the same thing.

Some of the dread/panic going round this thread is amusing though - with all the usual cliches (blame the elderly, blame the uneducated, etc). We're one of the strongest economies and most influential countries in the world and we're leaving a political union - we'll be fine.


----------



## RavishingRickRules (Sep 22, 2016)

Lol @ people who think we could survive a "no deal" Brexit. Some of you REALLY should've spent more time in education.


----------



## Piers (Sep 1, 2015)

Come back mates :mj2


----------



## UniversalGleam (Jan 30, 2017)

My thinking over the situation is that they called a vote over europe with the idea of "oh everyone will vote to stay, don't worry" and therefore didnt even plan for an eventuality of the UK leaving Europe,

Then people voted to leave and they put themselves in a situation where they had no fucking idea what to do but couldnt go back on the peoples vote so they then had to cobble together a plan at last minute.

overall the government were absolute fucking idiots for throwing out a vote and gambling that people would vote to stay (not sure cameron wouldve gambled his job like that had I knew it was possible). You dont call a vote without having plans for both outcomes. Saying that though there shouldve never been a vote. These bastards get paid enough to sort this shit for themselves. I dont think throwing out a vote to the uneducated public was wise in any case.

I actually had some faith in may to get this done but not anymore, shes useless. I personally can't stand europe but I wouldve hoped for a better exit than this shitfest.


----------



## RavishingRickRules (Sep 22, 2016)

I mean it all boils down to this very simple fact: It's impossible for the EU to give into the vast majority of "promises" given by the Leave campaign with regards to our future relationship - the EU is literally designed to make all of those demands impossible, to allow them would be giving membership benefits to non-members. Because our economy is so tied into the EU (which makes the "we're one of the strongest economies in the world laughable - yes we are, but ONLY because the majority of our GDP comes from financial services to the EU!) there was literally no possible way the country could be better off outside of the EU than we are in it. We've already lost insane amounts of wealth and standing simply because of the vote result - never mind actually leaving the EU. The reason people blame the "uneducated" is because the uneducated don't do the research and their opinions basically amount to "I don't know fuck all, but it's alright because British Pride!!!" Which is retarded. The fact remains, and will remain that anybody who DID do the research knew this was a terrible idea. Any economic expert worth their salt knew this was a terrible idea. MP's knew this was a terrible idea which is why they overwhelmingly voted Remain. The only people who thought it was a good idea were the elite tax-dodgers who saw an easy way for them to gain more power (they don't care if the economy plummets, they're still millionaires regardless) and the idiots who bought into their bullshit, don't know what they're talking about and voted for the shitstorm. There was literally NO plan that could be made that would give us a positive outcome in leaving the EU - it's impossible. Anybody thinking there was is flat-out fooling themselves, most likely doesn't work in an industry that deals with economics on a large scale, and frankly is a lot more gullible and foolish than an adult should ever be in their life. Fact.


----------



## Ninja Hedgehog (Mar 22, 2018)

The "taking back control of our borders" is my favourite argument. Go and try and live in Germany for 3 months and not get a job, and they'll make you leave. People were brainwashed into thinking this was all about immigration. People coming here and living off the state. Under EU law we are allowed to deport people if they choose to do that, but we never enforce it here, because reasons (laziness mostly!)



RavishingRickRules said:


> I mean it all boils down to this very simple fact: It's impossible for the EU to give into the vast majority of "promises" given by the Leave campaign with regards to our future relationship - the EU is literally designed to make all of those demands impossible, to allow them would be giving membership benefits to non-members. Because our economy is so tied into the EU (which makes the "we're one of the strongest economies in the world laughable - yes we are, but ONLY because the majority of our GDP comes from financial services to the EU!) there was literally no possible way the country could be better off outside of the EU than we are in it. We've already lost insane amounts of wealth and standing simply because of the vote result - never mind actually leaving the EU. The reason people blame the "uneducated" is because the uneducated don't do the research and their opinions basically amount to "I don't know fuck all, but it's alright because British Pride!!!" Which is retarded. The fact remains, and will remain that anybody who DID do the research knew this was a terrible idea.* Any economic expert worth their salt knew this was a terrible idea*. MP's knew this was a terrible idea which is why they overwhelmingly voted Remain. The only people who thought it was a good idea were the elite tax-dodgers who saw an easy way for them to gain more power (they don't care if they economy plummets, they're still millionaires regardless) and the idiots who bought into their bullshit, don't know what they're talking about and voted for the shitstorm. There was literally NO plan that could be made that would give us a positive outcome in leaving the EU - it's impossible. Anybody thinking there was is flat-out fooling themselves, most likely doesn't work in an industry that deals with economics on a large scale, and frankly is a lot more gullible and foolish than an adult should ever be in their life. Fact.


Didn't you hear? Apparently, people are sick of experts

:eyeroll


----------



## RavishingRickRules (Sep 22, 2016)

Ninja_Hedgehog said:


> Didn't you hear? Apparently, people a sick of experts
> 
> :eyeroll


And that's very obvious by the pro-Brexit community knowing absolutely fuck all about how anything in the economy works, how anything in the EU works, in fact how anything in the UK works and mostly just parroting long-since ridiculed talking points they heard from the people who manipulated them with ease.


----------



## Irish Jet (Nov 15, 2011)

I could go into greater detail about how absolutely fucked this idea of a “no deal” would actually be for the UK. The most obvious point from my perspective would be the immediate possibility of the UK literally breaking up as for the first time an independent Ireland would be more economically viable than the absolute disaster that would be the hard border, tariff heavy existence which would immediately destroy both economies. There needs to be a deal with the UK to prevent a genuinely horrific situation over here.

The Brexiters were spinning a web of lies that were so fucking blatantly obvious it hurts. Boris is jumping ship becuase he can point at the mess May made of his disaster to save face. Anyone who believes Boris Johnson or Nigel Farage have anything but their own personal ambition in mind need a punch in the face. They are con artists, with very suspicious financial backing. As do the DUP, the ultimate chest thumping goons, the likes of which cannot be found anywhere in the world. They didn’t even bother trying to make a coherent defence of Brexit in NI, just parroted the “sure it’ll be fine, BRITAIN STRONG” nonsense while taking money from unnamed sources to distribute propaganda across the water because they knew it was a waste of fucking time over here. The lot of them should be tried as criminals, they’ve betrayed ever person in the nation with their bullshit. If the imaginery glorious Brexit existed then why the fuck would the Tories not go through with it?!?! They’d secure every election for the next 20 years if this great deal/no deal was viable. It isn’t. It never was. Boris lied, Davis lies, the bus lied. It was all a crock of shit.


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## Gillbergs Sparkler (Jun 28, 2011)

UniversalGleam said:


> My thinking over the situation is that they called a vote over europe with the idea of "oh everyone will vote to stay, don't worry" and therefore didnt even plan for an eventuality of the UK leaving Europe,
> 
> Then people voted to leave and they put themselves in a situation where they had no fucking idea what to do but couldnt go back on the peoples vote so they then had to cobble together a plan at last minute.
> 
> ...


David Cameron made a calculated gamble.

He called the Scottish referendum to cripple the Lib Dem and Labour vote in Scotland by stoking Scottish nationalism.

He called the EU referendum in an attempt to cripple UKIP and the persistent thorn in the side of the Tories in their euroskeptic wing.

This entire mess is down to an arrogant Prime Minister who saw an opportunity to secure a Tory government for years by undercutting all his political rivals who has left this country with a complete mess whilst he simply faded away into the background, leaving the rest of us to tidy up the chaos.

David Cameron should be a social pariah, widely condemned and blamed for this absolute shit show, instead he's been able to silently fade away, the victim of a few pig related jibes.


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## RavishingRickRules (Sep 22, 2016)

Gillbergs Sparkler said:


> David Cameron made a calculated gamble.
> 
> He called the Scottish referendum to cripple the Lib Dem and Labour vote in Scotland by stoking Scottish nationalism.
> 
> ...


Cameron's fuck up only allowed the vultures to start creating the carcass they're going to pick over tbh. His move was a bad one, but the true "villains" here are the ones who actually pushed it through and the ways they've been continually making millions (through short-selling the pound and cashing in via their hedge funds) whilst everybody else feels the negative effects on the economy. Once the economy is in the toilet they'll make even more when they asset-strip the nation with the convenient excuse of "well, we didn't know this would happen because of Brexit (you did) but we're going to have to sell everything now to cope." Only the uneducated fools like @Seb think there was ever a good end-result for the country and not just a small group of elites who can make serious bank on the wholesale destruction of a nation's economy and credibility.


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## Gillbergs Sparkler (Jun 28, 2011)

RavishingRickRules said:


> Cameron's fuck up only allowed the vultures to start creating the carcass they're going to pick over tbh. His move was a bad one, but the true "villains" here are the ones who actually pushed it through and the ways they've been continually making millions (through short-selling the pound and cashing in via their hedge funds) whilst everybody else feels the negative effects on the economy. Once the economy is in the toilet they'll make even more when they asset-strip the nation with the convenient excuse of "well, we didn't know this would happen because of Brexit (you did) but we're going to have to sell everything now to cope." Only the uneducated fools like @Seb think there was ever a good end-result for the country and not just a small group of elites who can make serious bank on the wholesale destruction of a nation's economy and credibility.


Of course, there is a reason they keep hammering home "will of the people" (despite it being a slim margin and more people didn't or couldn't vote), it is so in a few years time, when the economy tanks and they begin to asset strip more public services like the NHS they can hide it behind "people experiencing the consequences of their choices, they voted for this, so they need to ride through the storm, they knew what they were voting for" etc.

The more they keep drilling it into our collective heads that this is democracy, will of the people etc they can also then spin the blame on us and have us divided and fighting each other when shit hits the fan, too distracted to go after the absolute bastards who engineered it all.


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## UniversalGleam (Jan 30, 2017)

Thats pretty much what I meant though, cameron basically wanted a vote to confirm that people wanted to remain in europe they could happily move on from the whole europe debate then it all did a left turn. I highly doubt he wouldve even of entertained the idea if there was sufficient doubt that the vote would go to leave (same happened recently with the snap election as a power grab that fucked things up more when it didnt go as planned).

goes without saying that politicians are spineless bastards. A doctor doesnt "throw out a vote" to the public on whether someone needs heart surgery or not, they judge it based on their own knowledge and expertise in the medical field, why should we make a decision to leave europe? do it your fucking self. You know the country and its economy better than "dave" from the local butchers.


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## RavishingRickRules (Sep 22, 2016)

UniversalGleam said:


> Thats pretty much what I meant though, cameron basically wanted a vote to confirm that people wanted to remain in europe they could happily move on from the whole europe debate then it all did a left turn. I highly doubt he wouldve even of entertained the idea if there was sufficient doubt that the vote would go to leave (same happened recently with the snap election as a power grab that fucked things up more when it didnt go as planned).
> 
> goes without saying that politicians are spineless bastards. A doctor doesnt "throw out a vote" to the public on whether someone needs heart surgery or not, they judge it based on their own knowledge and expertise in the medical field, why should we make a decision to leave europe? do it your fucking self. *You know the country and its economy better than "dave" from the local butchers.*


Actually a lot of them don't, that's the biggest problem with politics. A significant portion of politicians are just wealthy people who convinced people to vote for them, they're not experts. There are some INCREDIBLY competent politicians too (Vince Cable's one tbh) but politics is one of the very few "industries" where you can blag your way into a job by chatting shit and still keep the job when you don't perform because all you have to do is continue blagging. Enough money and/or charisma and any old retard can get elected, it's less about competence and more about the ability to persuade people that you're their guy. Boris Johnson has a friggin 2:1 in Classics, his "skills" are in his character - he actually pretended to be a liberal at Oxford in order to get elected president of the Union, he's been convincing working class people to buy into his crap since he was a student. What we need are more politicians who are less bothered about the money they can make and the people they can influence and are more bothered about the country and utilising the skills they studied their lives for. We do have a lot of those, but they're very rarely the ones with power in the 2 big parties. Politics is fucked, it pays better to be good looking or charismatic than it does to be a god damned genius and expert in your field. It's basically pro wrestling but the fights are proper shit.


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## Seb (Jun 13, 2007)

RavishingRickRules said:


> Only the uneducated fools like @Seb think there was ever a good end-result for the country and not just a small group of elites who can make serious bank on the wholesale destruction of a nation's economy and credibility.


I didn't even vote leave you absolute cabbage. I just think some of the fear mongering going round is massively OTT.

Nice job assuming i'm uneducated as well (you're throwing assumptions all over the place here) just because I don't think leaving a political union is going to be the "wholesale destruction of a nation's economy and credibility".


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## RavishingRickRules (Sep 22, 2016)

Seb said:


> I didn't even vote leave you absolute cabbage.


Thus proving my point that you're both uneducated and the bearer of an invalid opinion. Thanks for letting everybody know you're irrelevant to the discussion because you don't really understand any of it.


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## deepelemblues (Sep 26, 2011)

Seb said:


> I didn't even vote leave you absolute cabbage. I just think some of the fear mongering going round is massively OTT.
> 
> Nice job assuming i'm uneducated as well (you're throwing assumptions all over the place here) just because I don't think leaving a political union is going to be the "wholesale destruction of a nation's economy and credibility".


Rick turns into a sneering tantrum-throwing authoritarian on this issue, don't feel bad


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## Seb (Jun 13, 2007)

RavishingRickRules said:


> Thus proving my point that you're both uneducated and the bearer of an invalid opinion. Thanks for letting everybody know you're irrelevant to the discussion because you don't really understand any of it.


You've made assumptions that I voted leave (I didn't) and that i'm uneducated (i'm not) and now you've decided that I don't understand what's going on, purely because i'm not going ridiculously over the top about what leaving the EU will mean for the country.

Glad we both know where we stand.


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## RavishingRickRules (Sep 22, 2016)

Not a big fan of the Guardian but they're pretty on point here.


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## Ninja Hedgehog (Mar 22, 2018)

I've changed my mind on Brexit!!! I am now convinced that immigration is a major problem.

Look at the latest foreigner we let in:


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## greasykid1 (Dec 22, 2015)

So, there are now literally no politicians left that actually campaigned for Brexit.
*They have all resigned.*

And yet there are people out there that still believe voting "leave" was anything but completely fucking stupid.

Just take a look at the situation. We are allegedly preparing to sever ties, but we will still be bound by EU laws surrounding immigration and the free movement of people. We will still be paying the EU for the right to trade, and we will still be subject to laws passed by the EU if we expect to have continued access to those trade deals.

Essentially, voting "Leave" has removed the UK Government's ability to have any say over the laws we will be bound by. Nothing more.

It doesn't remove immigrants from our country. It doesn't allow us to "take back control" of our borders. EVERYTHING that the leave voters think they voted for was never actually on the table. They were played, plain and simple.

And now, the politicians that played them have all run for the hills.

But again, they still argue that Brexit is good for the country. I guess because to admit anything else, is to admit that they were wrong.


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## Ninja Hedgehog (Mar 22, 2018)

greasykid1 said:


> So, there are now literally no politicians left that actually campaigned for Brexit.
> *They have all resigned.*
> 
> And yet there are people out there that still believe voting "leave" was anything but completely fucking stupid.
> ...


This is also something that we are able to do as a member of the EU anyway. It's not the EU's fault that we are too lazy/unorganised to have control over people that choose to come here and not work. Other countries in the EU are able to implement it, but we couldn't organise a piss-up in a brewery OR an orgy in a brothel. Our Brexit 'negotiations' are proof of this :lol


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## Draykorinee (Aug 4, 2015)

We've had full control of our borders, why the fuck do people think the camps at Calais exist if we didn't? 

The whole immigrating thing was a lie from the start. Just like the straight banana myth.


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## BRITLAND (Jun 17, 2012)

draykorinee said:


> We've had full control of our borders, why the fuck do people think the camps at Calais exist if we didn't?
> 
> The whole immigrating thing was a lie from the start. Just like the straight banana myth.


https://brexit853.wordpress.com/201...-to-control-eu-freedom-of-movement-directive/


> *LOOKING AT THE FOM CONTROLS AVAILABLE AND WHERE THE UK HAVE FAILED TO USE THESE POWERS.*
> 
> The EU Freedom of Movement of workers into the UK has been a major success – despite the spin and deception surrounding these rights. However, by failing to demonstrate control, successive UK Governments have invited criticism – to the point that it was used by the Leave campaign as a representation of how the EU has lost control of it’s borders.
> 
> ...


It's a shame we didn't implement these powers back in 2004, 2010, 2015 or heck even after the vote in 2016. If we had and did what Germany does to EU migrants entering their country (monitoring who enters and making sure migrants are working/well financed and not taking much out of the state) the whole control our borders probably wouldn't have been as big an issue as it was in 2016. This was the fault of Major, Blair, Brown, Cameron, Clegg and May during their runs not the EU itself.


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## Draykorinee (Aug 4, 2015)

Chief brexiteer liam fox says it's more likely we'll get no deal now. Is this 4d chess to convince the EU to abandon their decades of economic policy or a realisation that little old England is not strong enough to get a decent deal?


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## Rozalia (Feb 9, 2015)

No deal == "Hard" (actual) Brexit. Bring it on. We can take the pain, the EU would rather do without it. They might after all be losing Poland and Italy soon. 

Also lol at Liam Fox being a chief Brexiteer. May as well say I'm a chief Brexiteer too while at it.


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## Draykorinee (Aug 4, 2015)

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...rs-heading-Europe-face-6-visa-fee-Brexit.html

Daily mail upset that after voting to end free movement of people the EU charge for movement of people...the state of brexiteers.


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## BRITLAND (Jun 17, 2012)

*More than 100 seats that backed Brexit now want to remain in EU*

*Major new analysis shows most constituencies now have majority who want to Remain*



> More than 100 Westminster constituencies that voted to leave the EU have now switched their support to Remain, according to a stark new analysis seen by the Observer.
> 
> In findings that could have a significant impact on the parliamentary battle of Brexit later this year, the study concludes that most seats in Britain now contain a majority of voters who want to stay in the EU.
> 
> ...


https://www.theguardian.com/politic...100-pro-leave-constituencies-switch-to-remain

Quite a few folk now calling for a second referendum on the deal, such as Justine Greening who called for one to be held under AV with three options: Remain, Leave with Deal (soft/medium brexit), Leave with No Deal (hard brexit). Some columnist in the Guardian or Independent even called for a fourth option Hard Remain which would have the UK not just remain in the EU but also join Schengen and the Eurozone! Just imagine the screams of torture from UKIP and the ERG!

A good few brexiteers in the Conservatives are hoping for a leadership challenge this October, mainly hoping for Boris Johnson to takeover Theresa May as Conservative leader and Prime Minister.

But at the same time, some Conservative MPs have threatened to leave the party if Boris becomes leader, including Justine Greening, Anna Soubry and Dominic Grieve which is why this doesn't surprise me:

*Secret plot to oust Theresa May in Brexiteer putsch and install David Davis as 'interim' PM with Boris Johnson urged to delay his leadership bid until after Brexit*



> Boris Johnson is being urged to anoint David Davis as ‘interim’ Prime Minister as part of a Brexiteer putsch to oust Theresa May as early as October, The Mail on Sunday can reveal.
> 
> The burka row which has engulfed the party in the wake of Mr Johnson’s incendiary remarks about Islamic dress, has emboldened anti-May plotters, who think it could help trigger a leadership contest when MPs return to the Commons next month.
> 
> ...


Basically, David Davis would be the Prime Minister for around eight months (or maybe until early 2020 if a transitional period is still on the cards) then the Boris Johnson will be appointed the position of Prime Minister which he feels he is greatly entitled to. Obviously the ERG would want this in hope that the likes of Soubry and Greening don't ditch the party before brexit as the Conservatives/DUP would lose their majority and could put brexit in jeopardy. 

Imagine the direction of a Boris Johnson government. The man doesn't really have any values imo, he just wants the keys to 10 Downing Street for his own ego. I can see the ERG (the UK equivalent to the Tea Party) controlling Boris like a puppet, just watch Jacob Rees-Mogg be appointed a Cabinet Office Minister and manipulate Boris to implement a manifesto written by Mogg himself and the rest of the ERG like Peter Bone, John Redwood, Christopher Chope et al.



draykorinee said:


> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...rs-heading-Europe-face-6-visa-fee-Brexit.html
> 
> Daily mail upset that after voting to end free movement of people the EU charge for movement of people...the state of brexiteers.


Does the Mail not realise we would also charge EU nationals and other foreign nationals the same or maybe more? I thought they would advocate such a policy.


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## Raw-Is-Botchamania (Feb 13, 2015)

BRITLAND said:


> https://brexit853.wordpress.com/201...-to-control-eu-freedom-of-movement-directive/
> 
> 
> It's a shame we didn't implement these powers back in 2004, 2010, 2015 or heck even after the vote in 2016. If we had and did what Germany does to EU migrants entering their country (monitoring who enters and making sure migrants are working/well financed and not taking much out of the state) the whole control our borders probably wouldn't have been as big an issue as it was in 2016. This was the fault of Major, Blair, Brown, Cameron, Clegg and May during their runs not the EU itself.


Excuse me? 
You think this immigration we have now in Germany, against national and international laws, is something to aspire and admire? 
The immigrants from EU countries, with a valid passport, aren't the problem. The problem is the thousands and thousands of non-EU immigrants, who conveniently lost their passport, and who travel through several EU countries with the goal to enter the country with the best social welfare, which is Germany, and who are only "monitored" in the sense that border officers wave them hello, because they have the ILLEGAL order by Merkel to let them in.

None of these people are refugees. Someone whose life and body is threatened is happy to be safe. He doesn't travel through up to 7 countries to come to Germany. Someone trying to come in from a third party country can't be granted refugee status.

Not taking much out of the state? The big majority of these non EU immigrants can't write or read. If they are allowed to stay, they will be a massive burden on social welfare. Who do you think has to earn the money for that? And if they aren't allowed to stay, but can't be expelled, because reasons, then they become a criminal threat. Which they are now anyway. Already rejected immigrants right now are commiting crimes, theft, attack, rape, but the government is just not willing to send them back.
That's truly criminal.

Other EU countries must not bleed for Merkel's criminal actions.

I'd feel a hell of a lot safer under Trump, that's for goddamn sure.

Whether some Brussels fanboys want to see it or not, Europe had peace for 40 years, and friendship out of respect, but ever since Maastricht 1992, which defined a common currency and common internal and foreign politics, the political European Union became increasingly a construct of power and war, that now in the end sees itself as a global force like America, without being even its own country. 
Great Britain was never part of the €, only part of the political EU, and the aggressive reaction by Brussels to something that was and is a rightful and democratic move, is coming from scorned ideology. The UK will not have any problem whatsoever with this move, unless Brussels is deliberately starting a trading war, that would have contours of a terror regime.

The € construct had to end in chaos, and the profoundly undemocratic and preposterous way the Lisbon Treaty 2007 was forced into existence was a turbocharger for all of this. 
It wasn't until 1992 onwards, when the EU parliament started to reach for all encompassing power in all European countries, that anger, envy, injustice and war started.

A dying regime will go to extreme measures to supress the naturally unfolding protest and movement for change, that's what we're seeing here. One measure is to spread propaganda that these movements of freedom and democracy are right wing populists. 
Someone using the word "populistic" in a negative way is dumb anyway, because it literally means "of the people". 
So, if being "of the people and the common man" is negative today, you know exactly what mindset you're dealing with.

Insulting democratic majorities, like Brexit or Trump voters, as wholly unintelligent, is fascism to the very core. And everyone who thinks that: fuck you!


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## Draykorinee (Aug 4, 2015)

Insulting a democratic majorities is core fascism...

Parody account detected.


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## Laughable Chimp (Sep 1, 2016)

Not to rain on the Anti-Brexit parade. Just wanting to give another side to the story.

Has there actually been any significantly permanent negative effect in the economic statistics since Brexit was announced? As in, GDP, unemployment, inflation, etc? Because I went and checked the stats on tradingeconomics and none of them showed anything really bad. 

Can’t help but feel Brits are being way too paranoid on the effects of Brexit.


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## Draykorinee (Aug 4, 2015)

Good news, May and the EU have agreed a deal!

Bad news is it seems to stink and none of the brexiteers are backing it.

Looking forward to another line of resignations tomorrow, although I think every brexteer MP has already quit their role.


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## Hangman (Feb 3, 2017)

Ninja_Hedgehog said:


> I've changed my mind on Brexit!!! I am now convinced that immigration is a major problem.
> 
> Look at the latest foreigner we let in:


You joking right? Trump could fix this shitshow we got going on.


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## Draykorinee (Aug 4, 2015)

Ultron said:


> Ninja_Hedgehog said:
> 
> 
> > I've changed my mind on Brexit!!! I am now convinced that immigration is a major problem.
> ...


I'll give Trump credit in that he would definitely do a better job of Brexit than May. Although, that's not saying much.

He'd still be an odious cunt about everything else.


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## DOPA (Jul 13, 2012)

Draykorinee said:


> Good news, May and the EU have agreed a deal!
> 
> Bad news is it seems to stink and none of the brexiteers are backing it.
> 
> Looking forward to another line of resignations tomorrow, although I think every brexteer MP has already quit their role.


The problem is, May right from the beginning gave concessions to the EU without fighting for any positions or policies that would benefit us (at least from my POV, I know you'd probably disagree and that's fine). The deal which May and the EU have agreed upon from what I can see puts us firmly as a Vassal state to the EU which nobody wants. May has given further concessions in order to solve the Northern Irish border problem.....which would be fine had she stayed strong during the original negotiations and not bent over to the EU at every given turn. Now we essentially have a deal which nobody wants, Brexiteers or Remainers.

Honestly, and this will please you and @RavishingRickRules but I could see Brexit being overturned at this rate. More MP's are becoming bolder in coming out for a 2nd referendum which was probably their true feeling all along and I could see either May being the weak leader that she is and truly a Remainer at heart too offering a 2nd referendum or calling a general election if the deal doesn't go through (which it won't) and Corbyn offering a 2nd referendum in the event that he wins because he is power hungry at his core. I think the Tory government has fucked up so much negotiating a Brexit deal and so much fear has been driven up by the Remain aligned papers and media like the BBC and LBC that we would end up voting to stay in the EU if the 2nd referendum had that option. It's essentially been the goal all along for quite a number of people.

Honestly I think a 2nd referendum would leave the country more divided rather than united, I certainly wouldn't vote again should Brexit be overturned because I would lose complete faith in the British democratic system upholding any policy or value in which I voted on. And I think that would be the same for millions of other voters.

I won't be shy in saying I think remain if it is an option would win in a 2nd referendum because both May in her weak negotiations with the EU and the media who are against Brexit (not that there aren't pro brexit media obviously but when you have the BBC and the rest of the televisions networks against it clearly plus radio stations and papers putting forward how bad Brexit is going to be daily it has an effect) have had such an impact on the whole process that those who were tepidly for Brexit plus some who were for Brexit wholeheartedly will change their minds out of fear that we will be so much worse off that the potential long term benefits plus being away from an unaccountable undemocratic political union won't be worth it.

So I won't be surprised if you guys will be celebrating in 6 months to a years time, because clearly either May has no clue what's doing or she's deliberately sabotaging the process because she doesn't believe Brexit can work. Either way, I'm sure you can see I'm very pessimistic about the whole thing.


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## Reaper (Sep 4, 2013)

Democracy. It's best when it's 2 out of 3 :mj4


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## Nothing Finer (Apr 12, 2017)

Reap said:


> Democracy. It's best when it's 2 out of 3 :mj4


It's certainly better than having one decision which stands forever.

Having multiple referenda on the same question is actually perfectly normal and democratic. It happens frequently in countries which regularly have them. Even in the UK, where there have only ever been 3 national referenda in history, 2 of them have been on membership of the same organisation.


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## DesolationRow (Oct 11, 2009)

Reap said:


> Democracy. It's best when it's 2 out of 3 :mj4


:lol

Well-said.

Reminds me of G.K. Chesterton writing in a 1926 edition of _Illustrated London News_:

"The truth is that those who developed the democratic doctrine in modern times did not intend it for anything at all resembling the modern world, perhaps the most ancient of all possible worlds. They thought of the agricultural commonwealths of antiquity, and went back past even the Roman Empire to find the Roman Republic. But Rome was a republic when Rome was a village. Those eighteenth-century idealists often actually lived in villages. They did not know what sort of world of steam and steel their descendants were going to inherit...

"It is highly characteristic of the tone of the eighteenth century that they generally talked of London as 'the town.' They said: 'All the town is talking about my Lord Banglebury's duel with Mr. Pickles.' In the sound and sense of the word there was something compact and comfortable; as of a world still small enough to know itself, like a village. _When these people talked about democracy they did indeed mean the government of the people, by the people, for the people. But they meant the government of people they knew, by people they knew, for people they knew. They meant the government of people who knew each other, by the people who knew each other, for the people who knew each other._ I think it is highly doubtful whether any of the eighteenth-century democratic theorists, whether Payne or Jefferson or Condorcet, would have expected a vast and vague society like ours to be a democracy. I think they would have thought it, however reluctantly, a case for Caesar and the _panem et circenses_."


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## Kiz (Dec 2, 2006)

can't believe a campaign based on lies and run by idiots didn't work out smoothly.


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## deepelemblues (Sep 26, 2011)

May's sekrit plan to have Daniel Craig, as _Agent 007 James Bond,_ seduce Merkel and Macron has worked. Deal? That was the deal! May gets them laid by 007, they stop being such big jerks about everything.


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## Draykorinee (Aug 4, 2015)

DOPA said:


> Honestly, and this will please you and @RavishingRickRules but I could see Brexit being overturned at this rate. More MP's are becoming bolder in coming out for a 2nd referendum which was probably their true feeling all along and I could see either May being the weak leader that she is and truly a Remainer at heart too offering a 2nd referendum or calling a general election if the deal doesn't go through (which it won't) and Corbyn offering a 2nd referendum in the event that he wins because he is power hungry at his core.


I find the notion that the media is pro remain confusing, it was the S*n, Mail, Express etc with a circulation of 3.5 million+ that pushed Brexit, whereas the Mirror and the Guardian have about 1 million between them. 

So, I fundamentally disagree with that idea that the media is largely more biased and so do yougov polls.










You could argue that BBCs viewership eclipses all of the papers, but the figures are only in the region of 3-5 million so its not excessive.

I am fundamentally torn on a second referendum because its going to cause massive division and leave voters KNOW they'll lose this time which is why they're so desperate to prevent it, but I also think applying the brakes before potentially going over a cliff is a good idea.

It seems weird that its less democratic to have a second vote now that we know all of the details about what Brexit means, than to just go on ahead with what is clearly not an acceptable Brexit for the people who wanted Brexit.

I won't celebrate either way because the UK loses which ever now.


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## Goku (Feb 25, 2007)

just remember, 2 referendums are more than 1.

:move


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## Reaper (Sep 4, 2013)

Humans tend to default towards apocalyptic thinking. 

Probably neither of the worst case scenarios will play out irrespective of leave or remain.


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## UniversalGleam (Jan 30, 2017)

well I had to see alastair campbell on the TV this morning, that is no way to start the day.

hes basically walking vomit in a suit.


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## Ninja Hedgehog (Mar 22, 2018)

UniversalGleam said:


> well I had to see alastair campbell on the TV this morning, that is no way to start the day.
> 
> hes basically walking vomit in a suit.


He should only ever be on TV after 9pm. There might be children watching before then.

There should have at least been a parental guidance warning before he came on


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## Irish Jet (Nov 15, 2011)

What a fucking day. The whole thing would be hilarious if it wasn’t so tragic. 

Easiest deal in history they said. Hang the traitors. Throw Arlene in the sea.


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## sambowhite2 (Jul 15, 2013)

If Brexit doesn't happen properly I think there'll be a new centre right party formed which will campaign with the promise of a future Brexit.
One way or another, Britain will be free from the Shackles of the European Union eventually.


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## Draykorinee (Aug 4, 2015)

Two resignations already, Brexit secretary now gone. These fucking Brexiteers keep disappearing.

Easiest deal in history one said.


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## Ninja Hedgehog (Mar 22, 2018)

sambowhite2 said:


> If Brexit doesn't happen properly I think there'll be a new centre right party formed which will campaign with the promise of a future Brexit.
> *One way or another, Britain will be free from the Shackles of the European Union eventually.*


What "shackles" exactly??


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## Draykorinee (Aug 4, 2015)

And another cabinet member gone.

Teresa is hanging on by a thread.


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## Kiz (Dec 2, 2006)

last one out close the door


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## Death Rider (May 18, 2011)

Ninja_Hedgehog said:


> sambowhite2 said:
> 
> 
> > If Brexit doesn't happen properly I think there'll be a new centre right party formed which will campaign with the promise of a future Brexit.
> ...


I voted remain but the EU are a bunch of cunts and have plenty of problems. Saying that this brexit deal is a fucking mess as I knew it would be


----------



## Ninja Hedgehog (Mar 22, 2018)

Roy Mustang said:


> I voted remain *but the EU are a bunch of cunts and have plenty of problems.* Saying that this brexit deal is a fucking mess as I knew it would be


This may be true but it's not like our politicians/government are any better. I'm just baffled by peoples thinking that they won't get screwed over once we are "free" (obviously don't mean you specifically)


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## Draykorinee (Aug 4, 2015)

They always whinge about unelected bureaucrats too then ignore the house of lords.

I'm no fan of unelected officials but let's not pretend like the UK has to bow to the whims of the EU, we always had sovereignty.

Now that we'll be out we're going to be politicallyinsignificant to Europe and the rest of the world.

Corbyn is being a useless little prick just sitting on the outside pointing at May, he's a Brexiteer at heart and you can see by how inept he's been on the issue.


----------



## Irish Jet (Nov 15, 2011)

Draykorinee said:


> They always whinge about unelected bureaucrats too then ignore the house of lords.
> 
> I'm no fan of unelected officials but let's not pretend like the UK has to bow to the whims of the EU, we always had sovereignty.
> 
> ...


Corbyn is playing it well, from an electoral point of view.

Supporting a second referendum would alienate half the electorate, a lot of them in Labour constituencies. Pointless too as he can’t actually call for one so it would be a futile gesture. Supporting this deal would piss off everyone and he’s better off shooting down anything the Tories offer. 

When the general election comes after the disastrous Brexit, deal or no, Labour can attack the Tories on all fronts without ever being called on it as they didn’t commit to anything.It’s actually not too different from the what the Brexiters are doing too - Although they can’t escape the wrath of remainers. Corbyn can claim he was a remainer who respected the referendum result, who supported a good (impossible) deal. That’s why he will be PM.


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## DOPA (Jul 13, 2012)

So the Brexit secretary Dominic Raab and a few other ministers have resigned. I would have thought at the very least that the cabinet would be united behind May's deal but it turns out to not be the case.

https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/the-news-explained/draft-withdrawal-agreement-explained/



> Cabinet Ministers have backed a 585-page draft withdrawal agreement between the UK and EU after a five-hour meeting with Theresa May, but what does the agreement actually say?
> 
> The 585-page document was published late Wednesday night, after a five-hour-long Cabinet meeting at Downing Street.
> 
> ...


The one good news for Brexiteers is that free movement of people will end so the deal is not a *total* failure....good grief :lol. Looks like we're going to be staying part of the customs union through the transition period at least which isn't shocking. Single Market will apply until a trade deal is sorted out to avoid the Northern Irish hard border. Apparently we'll be able to negotiate new trade deals outside the EU during the transition period though they won't apply until after they are up....I don't see how under a May government we would even have time to do this. Plus I'm kind of confused how we would be able to do this when the Chequers deal clearly stated we are going to remain part of the single market i.e a soft Brexit. Maybe that's been scrapped?

Not surprisingly, the Northern Irish Border and the Fisheries have and will be hardest thing to sort out and negotiated, it's not surprising with how ill prepared May has been that we have no clear answers beyond the temporary arrangement.

The only thing that gives me breathing room is that seems to be a temporary transitional arrangement. I'm not happy with the delay in getting an actual exit from the EU rather than being stuck to the union's institutions but this deal which has been set up thus far does not seem to be the final one, which is why on the one hand many Brexiteers like myself aren't happy yet at the same time it does give us a path to move forward in a more positive direction.

So I'm torn, I don't like how the deal is set up currently yet if it gets voted down by parliament which is very much likely, then we move a step forward to either no deal or having a 2nd referendum. Neither situation I want.

I don't believe May is the right person to lead these negotiations after March 2019.


-----------


Speaking of the EU: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ENPZ8CYV7dxA_UIv7oYC0KLY4FRBihNttQwBJ4maKlsbQ



> Angela Merkel has called for the creation of a “real, true” European army, echoing a similar call by her French counterpart.
> 
> The German chancellor’s backing for the force comes amid a spat with US president Donald Trump, who took offence to a suggestion by Emmanuel Macron that such an army could ensure Europe’s security in the shadow of the United States.
> 
> ...



A dangerous fantasy they said.


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## Draykorinee (Aug 4, 2015)

Is there a particular reason why a European army is dangerous? Never cared for any army but why this specifically?

I almost feel bad for May, but then she picked up a clearly poisoned chalice.


----------



## DOPA (Jul 13, 2012)

Draykorinee said:


> Is there a particular reason why a European army is dangerous? Never cared for any army but why this specifically?
> 
> I almost feel bad for May, but then she picked up a clearly poisoned chalice.


Nick Clegg and other Eurocrats said it was a dangerous fantasy to suggest that the EU was pushing towards having a common European army under the EU's discretion even though the EU's biggest supporters have been calling for it for years. Now it seems like it's getting pushed closer to reality. Eurosceptics are being proved right in their claims.

That's what I was referring to.


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## Ninja Hedgehog (Mar 22, 2018)

Draykorinee said:


> Two resignations already, Brexit secretary now gone. These fucking Brexiteers keep disappearing.
> 
> Easiest deal in history one said.












More rats deserting a sinking ship (no offence to actual rats)


----------



## Stadhart02 (Aug 31, 2016)

Irish Jet said:


> Corbyn just playing both sides while the Tories eat themselves alive and the country with it, pissing off literally everyone. Labour gonna get all the outrage votes.
> 
> Best brush up your Marx comrades. Gonna paint the country red. Preferably with Tory blood.


It is funny how all of those Tory supporting morons joined up to the Labour Party back when they had that leadership contest and were gloating all over the place how they got Corbyn in and he was going to keep Labour out of power forever....

Then May turned up and suddenly all those dipsticks will now be regretting that (or more likely denying they ever did it) because we are going to get at least 5 years of his ruinous polices

But at this point the Tory Party needs to die off so let it all burn and hope something actually conservative (small c) rises in its place

although with this Brexit screw up the UK Parliament will effectively become like a local town hall anyway so elections will be pretty pointless


----------



## Draykorinee (Aug 4, 2015)

DOPA said:


> Nick Clegg and other Eurocrats said it was a dangerous fantasy to suggest that the EU was pushing towards having a common European army under the EU's discretion even though the EU's biggest supporters have been calling for it for years. Now it seems like it's getting pushed closer to reality. Eurosceptics are being proved right in their claims.
> 
> That's what I was referring to.


Yeah I know, but I'm always confused why its an issue negatively or why Clegg would consider it dangerous. What is it about a European one that is of any specific concern?

Edit: Yet another resignation.


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## DOPA (Jul 13, 2012)

Draykorinee said:


> Yeah I know, but I'm always confused why its an issue negatively or why Clegg would consider it dangerous. What is it about a European one that is of any specific concern?
> 
> Edit: Yet another resignation.


The main argument is with concern to further European integration. The creation of a European army is seen by many as the continuation of policies to bring together an ever closer union within the EU countries moving towards a European superstate. The army itself would be under the jurisdiction of the EU commission and not under any elected sovereign nation state and thus no accountability can be attributed to it. So unlike for example if the British state decides to go to war and it ends up being disastrous, we can hold our leaders accountable, the same cannot be said for the EU army which acts on behalf of the EU leaders themselves. That is what the fear is, particularly as integration continues to accelerate and we move to an ever closer union. 

The other concern tied to this of course is if foreign policy is decided on a European level that it undermines individual nations to be able to make their own foreign policy decisions in the interests of their respective countries because all 27 nations would have to agree on the best course of action. So if a nation state disagrees, it means they don't have full control over their decision making. This has been the crux of the problem with the migrant crisis and the common asylum policy. Those against the mass immigration of migrants such as Italy and the Eastern European countries have had a huge fight on their hands to stop being bullied into taking more migrants when they can't afford to nor want to. We've already seen moves by leaders in the EU to try and integrate foreign policy into the union and apply it to all of the member states even before this announcement by both Macron and Merkel....who are both supranationalists, so it's no surprise they back this.

I'm not sure if Clegg himself is for or against this. Only that the argument that it was being pushed for was false.....which obviously turns out to not be the case.

There are other concerns tied to the idea, namely it undermines NATO and the role it plays. How would other nations like the US and Turkey feel about a competing entity which essentially would share many of the same goals? I'm personally against both NATO and a European army anyway. The other being that it could spark further escalation and tension between the EU and Russia, especially with the EU's role in the coup that happened in Ukraine many years ago where there are still consequences of that decision being felt. So there are both foreign policy concerns and concerns with how the EU is morphing itself with the creation of such an army.


-----------------------

Rees Mogg has signed a letter of vote of no confidence which is hugely significant as he holds a big sway amongst back benchers. We're getting closer to May's position as Conservative leader being challenged. It's really starting to fall apart for her now.

Even if you disagree with Brexit, what is clear is that she has sold her deal in an absolutely terrible fashion. Her argument was essentially, either my deal or we get no Brexit at all. The idiot doesn't realize that this will just embolden remainers even further to vote against the deal.....who she needs because the leavers in her own party are not happy with what she has come up with.

I've wanted her to go for quite some time, I don't think now is the time....though should the deal not go through, perhaps I'll change my tune on it.


----------



## Irish Jet (Nov 15, 2011)

The Human Pencil making his move.


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## gregwalker1234 (Mar 25, 2012)

Draykorinee said:


> Brexit continues to be a disaster. Leave voters continue to go 'remoaners' and remainers continue to call leavers racist or stupid.
> 
> We were let down massively by both campaigns and now being let down because no one has a fucking clue what they're doing. Maybot and her Tory cronies are weak as fuck and the EU are trying to be as petty as possible.
> 
> I'm a remainer and begrudge anyone who voted leave and anyone who campaigned for leave because we're royally fucked right now.



This guy gets it


----------



## Draykorinee (Aug 4, 2015)

Lots of information now saying there are enough no confidence letters to trigger a vote on May!


----------



## UniversalGleam (Jan 30, 2017)

I don't know whats worse, this fucking mess or corbyn waiting in the wings to take over.


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## michael_3165 (Apr 16, 2016)

WTF are these people doing!? 

Nobody with any sense thought that Brexit was going to work. We have an EU that will protect their interests even at the expense of big businesses selling into the UK. I don't blame them, it keeps them in jobs and stops descent spreading through the rest of the EU, particularly the likes of Greece and Italy. 

We have people on the remain side who can't are so incredibly frustrated that they can provide evidence that the leave side won't hear. We have the leavers who will never admit to being wrong, no matter how much water fills the lifeboat they will still claim to be sailing smoothly. We have leavers who changed their minds, realising that they were fucked from the get go... 

Corbyn talks about some nonsensical customs union which will NEVER happen without free movement. We sides on the fence, bringing his own self-interests and career agenda before national interests. Rees-Mogg and Co are holding May to ransom without having the slightest hint of an alternative and we are heading for a Johnson premiership. It is just plain hideous. 

Why Cameron didn't foresee the Ireland border being a huge issue I do not know. Why nobody pointed out during the campaign was even more baffling. 

Leavers - I believe - aren't racist per se, they just have so much anger and hatred at seeing big companies employing lower paid EU citizens, their wages not increasing with inflation, housing for their children diminishing, NHS resources stretched and they wanted to make a stand against the whole establishment. They blame immigration because the upper classes have brainwashed them into thinking this way to stop them turning on the upper classes. It is always the way and always will be. The fact is that this and previous governments have turned their backs on the working classes and this is the result. 


I don't like calling leavers stupid because I voted leave and I can see the error in my ways. That said if you voted leave and you don't have the humility to admit you made a whacking great mistake then you are stupid. You can't ignore evidence.



UniversalGleam said:


> I don't know whats worse, this fucking mess or corbyn waiting in the wings to take over.


It is a horrific prospect as far as I am concerned and I am a labour voter historically. I now veer toward the LibDems but they aren't much cop at the moment either. Corbyn will hike up tax on the wealthy, they will all tell him to sod off and either 1) move assets out of the UK or 2) leave the UK entirely. We lose jobs, increase spending and borrowing. He can talk about equality and fairness all he likes but someone has to pay for it.


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## UniversalGleam (Jan 30, 2017)

michael_3165 said:


> It is a horrific prospect as far as I am concerned and I am a labour voter historically. I now veer toward the LibDems but they aren't much cop at the moment either. Corbyn will hike up tax on the wealthy, they will all tell him to sod off and either 1) move assets out of the UK or 2) leave the UK entirely. We lose jobs, increase spending and borrowing. He can talk about equality and fairness all he likes but someone has to pay for it.


I personally despise labour. 

tony blair fucked it all up and gordan browns government pulled out the foundations before leaving a note to laugh at the fact there was no money left. For that labour can go fuck themselves. 

I dont however like the conservatives either, they are all complete bastards. Corbyn would be an utter disaster though. I have voted conservatives in the past purely because I hate labour, I dont want them anywhere near parliament. Certainly not corbyn.


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## Irish Jet (Nov 15, 2011)

You fuckers are on the list. Along with the monarchy.

Permanent revolution comrades. Fuck the police.


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## FriedTofu (Sep 29, 2014)

It seems terribly ironic to me that some of the opposition is the potential for UK to break up as some of the states might prefer staying in the EU in the future, in a deal of Britain wanting to remove themselves from a bigger union of the EU. 

Give me my sovereignty back! But don't tempt those under my authority with more right to their sovereignty!


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## CamillePunk (Feb 10, 2011)

lmao how are you guys so bad at independence


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## skypod (Nov 13, 2014)

The average person could probably name quite a few things Tories/Westminster are doing to make their lives worse (particularly up north/Scotland), but I've never really heard anyone talk about how the EU is affecting their day-to-day lives negatively. If that is the case, they've not done a good job at putting the information out there.


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## Kiz (Dec 2, 2006)

michael_3165 said:


> WTF are these people doing!?
> 
> Nobody with any sense thought that Brexit was going to work. We have an EU that will protect their interests even at the expense of big businesses selling into the UK. I don't blame them, it keeps them in jobs and stops descent spreading through the rest of the EU, particularly the likes of Greece and Italy.
> 
> ...


all this sort of stuff to politicians is a game and a chance to leave a legacy, good or bad. they play human chess and neither of them lose except for the pieces. happening everywhere.


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## BRITLAND (Jun 17, 2012)

So who will be Prime Minister by the end of the year? Theresa May? Boris Johnson? David Davis? Andrea Leadsom? Jacob Rees-Mogg?

Also I'm surprised Gove hasn't resigned and is supporting May's deal despite the ugly history between the two as well as Gove being one of the faces of Vote Leave.


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## Rugrat (Jun 30, 2013)

michael_3165 said:


> Leavers - I believe - aren't racist per se, they just have so much anger and hatred at seeing big companies employing lower paid EU citizens, their wages not increasing with inflation, housing for their children diminishing, NHS resources stretched and they wanted to make a stand against the whole establishment. They blame immigration because the upper classes have brainwashed them into thinking this way to stop them turning on the upper classes. It is always the way and always will be. The fact is that this and previous governments have turned their backs on the working classes and this is the result.
> 
> 
> I don't like calling leavers stupid because I voted leave and I can see the error in my ways. That said if you voted leave and you don't have the humility to admit you made a whacking great mistake then you are stupid. You can't ignore evidence.


I think a large part of the issue was a number of low-skilled immigrants flooding the lower end of the labour market, which suppressed wages for manual labour and led to an increase in the number of fixed term and temporary contracts. Not enough was done to deal with this, so people in the poorer areas - particularly those in the areas of lower investment voted to leave the EU.

What does Barry, 53 from Barnsley who's recently been laid off have to lose by voting to take a chance on leaving the EU?

I think remaining was the right choice and did at the time, but I do understand the reasons that some had for leaving.


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## Reservoir Angel (Aug 7, 2010)

It's constantly becoming more and more clear that 'Brexit' as an issue all along has essentially just been an internal Tory psycho-drama played out on a depressingly large scale and press-ganging in millions of people who have somehow been convinced that no, Jacob Rees-Mogg totally cares about the poor working class and isn't just using them as pawns for his own craven political ambition and financial benefit.


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## Draykorinee (Aug 4, 2015)

Nadine Doris, leave voting Tory is upset that Mays deal doesn't leave us with any MEPs or votes...

https://www.thepoke.co.uk/2018/11/1...W_wJL-0vmwK_UcS3PPlrZbpJ2qLFOCz-B_ZOl6GZ-sbXA

Granted it cuts off and she could have said something to save herself but is there any wonder those is so shit when these people are in charge?


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## Nothing Finer (Apr 12, 2017)

Draykorinee said:


> Nadine Doris, leave voting Tory is upset that Mays deal doesn't leave us with any MEPs or votes...
> 
> https://www.thepoke.co.uk/2018/11/1...W_wJL-0vmwK_UcS3PPlrZbpJ2qLFOCz-B_ZOl6GZ-sbXA
> 
> Granted it cuts off and she could have said something to save herself but is there any wonder those is so shit when these people are in charge?


She's right, I don't know why she's being seen as a moron for it. It's true that under the deal the UK will be following EU law without having any say in the bodies that make the law - i.e. no commissioner, no MEPs etc. - which is why she wants to reject the deal.

The point isn't that she wants to have Commissioners and MEPs when the UK leaves the EU, it's that a country which follows law from the EU should have a say in those bodies, and a country which does not have a say - the UK post-Brexit - should not have to follow the laws.

The truth is that the deal the UK has provisionally agreed to is the sort of deal a country would sign when it lost a war, or when enemy forces were massing on its border and it was the only way to prevent conquest. It's a document of surrender, the UK loses sovereignty, loses control over its territory and must enforce internal borders and loses the right to leave without permission. It's the worst deal the UK has contemplated signing up to for at least the last 70 years, possibly in its history.

It's no wonder people who wanted to leave because of sovereignty are unhappy about it. The only mystery is why anyone supports it.


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## Draykorinee (Aug 4, 2015)

Nothing Finer said:


> She's right, I don't know why she's being seen as a moron for it. It's true that under the deal the UK will be *following EU law* without having any say in the bodies that make the law - i.e. no commissioner, no MEPs etc. - which is why she wants to reject the deal.


:confused


----------



## Nothing Finer (Apr 12, 2017)

Draykorinee said:


> :confused


Under the transition arrangement the UK follows every single EU law without being a member and without having any say on those laws until the end of 2020. That transition period can be extended until 31 December 20XX. The EU have spoken about December 31 2022 for that date, i.e. after the next UK election, so it may well be that a pro-European party gets elected and opts to apply to rejoin or extend the transition indefinitely.

Under the backstop some of those rules will apply until the EU says otherwise. Some of those laws may even apply to one part of the UK permanently.


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## FriedTofu (Sep 29, 2014)

You can choose not to follow EU laws by not trading with them directly. :shrug

Kick NI out of the UK and half the issues are addressed. :troll


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## Draykorinee (Aug 4, 2015)

Nothing Finer said:


> Draykorinee said:
> 
> 
> > <img src="http://i.imgur.com/34ojsSm.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Confused" class="inlineimg" />
> ...


It's temporary, and we'll be able to curtail any new laws our ends. The deal is shit, but that's what you get when you have nothing to offer the other negotiater.


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## Nothing Finer (Apr 12, 2017)

Draykorinee said:


> It's temporary, and we'll be able to curtail any new laws our ends. The deal is shit, but that's what you get when you have nothing to offer the other negotiater.


"Temporary" until the EU agrees to let the UK leave. 

So the UK has to come up with something that from the EU's perspective is equally as good as, if not better than, an arrangement where the UK follows all the rules on goods but has no say in making them, is part of the EU's customs union without having a veto. The UK doesn't even get services - a major part of its industry - included under the backstop. 

There is no conceivable trade deal that the EU would ever agree to when the alternative is the backstop. The only way the UK will ever leave the backstop is by losing Northern Ireland or rejoining the EU, the latter of which is the only remotely sensible relationship for the UK to have with Europe.


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## Undertaker23RKO (Jun 11, 2011)

Outside of the UK leaving the EU I really know nothing about Brexit and its impact. I've heard so much about it but never cared to dig even a little on it.


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## DOPA (Jul 13, 2012)

FriedTofu said:


> You can choose not to follow EU laws by not trading with them directly. :shrug
> 
> Kick NI out of the UK and half the issues are addressed. :troll


 @Utero :HA.

In all seriousness, if I was a remainer which I am not, my best hope would be that the May deal fails and we get a 2nd referendum where the options are May's deal vs Remain, because I guarantee in that scenario Remain would win:

* Remain voters will be energized knowing that May's deal is shit and is widely not supported by either side.

* Leave voters will not be, knowing that May's deal effectively keeps us in the EU whilst having no say in it whatsoever. We become a vassal state under May's deal.


A no deal Brexit vs Remain vote would actually have a closer result in my opinion because there are hardliners who want to leave regardless. I personally think no deal is better in the long run than May's horrible Brexit deal as well. I'd be more inclined to vote no deal than May's deal at this point in time because I don't see the EU renegotiating, this is the best deal for them honestly in the circumstances because May rolled over at nearly every turn.

If you also believe May is trying to circumvent the process and keep us in the EU through the back door which is also a very real possibility considering she's a remainer and how she's handled it, this is the best play for her too should her deal fail. Offer the 2nd referendum with those options. Either she gets her deal through which cements a legacy for her or remain in the EU which was what she always wanted anyway. Either way, she wins.

That's if she survives up to that point :lol.


----------



## Sensei Utero (May 1, 2016)

I'll just put out my point on the whole thing by bluntly stating that May's deal is absolute shite. I just don't see many benefits to it at all. Although I think with the last UK election it showcased that people didn't want a 'hard Brexit', this deal is way too soft. As @DOPA said, I'd prefer no deal at this point than that. I'm just disappointed because the politicians involved have all messed it up (the fear of that back in 2016 is partially why I voted Remain at the time). At the same time, I don't know about a second referendum - I don't think the public really should've been given the option to decide on a huge issue like this in the first place. Over here in Northern Ireland, there's real big uncertainty at the moment with Ireland and whether the country's long term future is within the United Kingdom, and the DUP clearly aren't happy with the deal (for once, I'm on their side).

On May herself, it just showcases as Labour pointed out that whilst she is the 'leader' of the Tories, she's not in control. I don't see her lasting long. I stopped supporting Jeremy Corbyn a long time ago (especially after realising how much more trouble the entire UK could be in, and the whole anti-semitism argument, as well as those questionable IRA links), but you have to ask whether he could've brought out a better deal than the one May has produced, and whether he'd be a better leader overall at the moment as there's no one else.


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## Draykorinee (Aug 4, 2015)

Strong and stable, remember that?


----------



## Sensei Utero (May 1, 2016)

Draykorinee said:


> Strong and stable, remember that?


:bosque

Also, I think a load of blame has to be placed on David Cameron too. Slipped away like a snake and left it all to May, which in fairness to her was a pretty tough position to be placed in.

But yeah, strong and stable :bosque


----------



## Sensei Utero (May 1, 2016)

Double post, but that May radio interview was cringe worthy as hell :lmao


----------



## UniversalGleam (Jan 30, 2017)

Removing everything to actually do with the situation of the current brexit plan, the constant reporting of what might and might not happen and the lingering shit of scare mongering about the whole thing has got incredibly fucking boring.

just shut up, get on with it and deal with stuff when it happens. I don't need some twat in suit on breakfast TV spouting his theoretical nonsense, just piss off with your shit and do something useful for once.


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## DOPA (Jul 13, 2012)

The bad news for 2nd referendum remainers is that the Labour leadership have rejected the idea of another referendum. Corbyn, McDonnell and Abbott have come out against the idea to my knowledge. There are also reports that McDonnell was furious at the fact Labour took the remain position during the 2016 referendum. Unfortunately the source I've seen it from is the Express which isn't the most reliable of papers....but there is no reason for me to believe that this isn't McDonnell's true feelings. After all, whilst a part of the EU, he can't take the UK as far left as he would like should Corbyn become PM. 

There are of course rebels from both the Tories and Labour but there isn't really the votes for a 2nd referendum to be called through parliament, they would have to hope that May herself would call a 2nd referendum in the event of her deal being rejected.....which is possible but she would fracture her own party by doing so, realistically it would be a bad move for her so I doubt she does it.

So Remainers who want to overturn the Brexit vote would have to hope that a general election is called....which won't happen because of the Conservative majority along with the unionists. There wouldn't be a desire for another general election unless May goes....and the Tory rebellion against May looks like it has fizzled out for now.

Honestly, whilst my initial reaction was of concern that a 2nd referendum would happen, a no deal scenario looks more likely. The vote is touch and go for May, it's not impossible that her deal gets through but it's going to be tight. In the event of a rejection, the ball would be in her court and I think this is where we'll see where her loyalties truly lie. If she calls a 2nd referendum then, we'll know she was looking to overturn the process all along. If she flips the table and says fuck it, we're leaving without a deal then at least we'll know she's serious about Brexit even though she's handled it horribly. The most likely outcome would be she goes back to Brussels and tries to renegotiate a bare bones agreement on the basics of the UK leaving.

At this point with the very few options left available to us, I believe no deal is the best option. It's not ideal and there's a chance we take an economic hit in the short term but the EU have made it clear and I do believe them when they say they want to avoid a no deal because at the end of the day, they want us as close to the EU and it's institutions as possible. More importantly for them, they'll lose our contributions to the European Project which are the 2nd highest out of all the EU nations. That won't be an easy budgetary hole to fill and to work out just who pays what to cover the costs. It'll be a headache for them to sort out, which is one of the reasons why they honestly don't want us to leave.

Because of that, we'd actually be in a prime position to negotiate in the future terms that both sides can agree to and benefit from. I wish May's government were competent enough so we wouldn't be in this position but the one thing everyone can agree to is that they have not been. Hence this is where we are at.


Meanwhile in the EU:

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/11/21/eu-...-vyfcY5SMyRu4S_41XT3YTLs1ql-UM8pEEAdxhUrJcMqM



> The European Union announced it will look to sanction Italy with a fine after the country refused to submit a budget proposal that squares with its rules.
> 
> Italy's populist and partly right-wing coalition wants to increase the country's deficit to 2.4 percent of annual economic output in 2019, as it looks to make good on pre-election spending pledges. A previous Italian government had submitted a 2019 budget which would have recorded a deficit of just 0.8 percent.
> 
> ...


More Turmoil with Italy, this time over their budgetary proceedings.


----------



## Doc (Oct 4, 2010)

Just fuck Northern Ireland off. Problems solved. Half of them don't give a rat's arse about the United Kingdom anyways.


----------



## Draykorinee (Aug 4, 2015)

I'm still in awe that pig fucker Cameron and his cronies set this in motion and fucked off when he lost.



Doc said:


> Just fuck Northern Ireland off. Problems solved. Half of them don't give a rat's arse about the United Kingdom anyways.


Scotland will be next out the door.


----------



## Doc (Oct 4, 2010)

Draykorinee said:


> I'm still in awe that pig fucker Cameron and his cronies set this in motion and fucked off when he lost.
> 
> 
> 
> Scotland will be next out the door.


Aye bugger them too.


----------



## Sensei Utero (May 1, 2016)

Doc said:


> Just fuck Northern Ireland off. Problems solved. Half of them don't give a rat's arse about the United Kingdom anyways.


Not true at all, especially in areas like mine. Once again, just ignorance shown by English towards NI, but that's pretty common. It was hilarious when folk were finding out about NI and the DUP after the last election lol. But onto the point...

If Northern Ireland left the United Kingdom, I'd seriously worry. The return of 'The Troubles' would surely occur. Especially in rundown UDA-ran shiteholes like here, were problems with Catholics are sadly daily. Without a government here too (it's a joke) at the moment due to the DUP fuck ups and them/Sinn Fein refusing to make a deal with the other, we need the United Kingdom.

I very much doubt Ireland could afford six more counties at the moment too. I'm not against the idea of a united Ireland (I don't believe it'll happen in my lifetime though), but there's more cons than pros right now. For folk stating for Northern Ireland to 'fuck off' just shows how little folk still know about here, especially towards the northern part of the country. If you came here, you'd be in for a shock.


----------



## Nothing Finer (Apr 12, 2017)

Utero said:


> Not true at all, especially in areas like mine. Once again, just ignorance shown by English towards NI, but that's pretty common. It was hilarious when folk were finding out about NI and the DUP after the last election lol. But onto the point...
> 
> If Northern Ireland left the United Kingdom, I'd seriously worry. The return of 'The Troubles' would surely occur. Especially in rundown UDA-ran shiteholes like here, were problems with Catholics are sadly daily. Without a government here too (it's a joke) at the moment due to the DUP fuck ups and them/Sinn Fein refusing to make a deal with the other, we need the United Kingdom.
> 
> I very much doubt Ireland could afford six more counties at the moment too. I'm not against the idea of a united Ireland (I don't believe it'll happen in my lifetime though), but there's more cons than pros right now. For folk stating for Northern Ireland to 'fuck off' just shows how little folk still know about here, especially towards the northern part of the country. If you came here, you'd be in for a shock.


Why does Northern Ireland want to be in the UK if the rest of the UK doesn't want it?


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## BRITLAND (Jun 17, 2012)

Doc said:


> Aye bugger them too.


What about Pro-Remain London? London independence anyone?


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## Sensei Utero (May 1, 2016)

Nothing Finer said:


> Why does Northern Ireland want to be in the UK if the rest of the UK doesn't want it?


It doesn't matter if they don't want Northern Ireland to suit their own agenda. Northern Ireland NEEDS the United Kingdom right now. Irish nationalists (even Catholics - before anyone calls me a Protestant twat or whatever, I'm agnostic - religion has pretty much destroyed Northern Ireland and continues to control it) will obviously disagree with that, but it's just how it is. I doubt Ireland could afford us, as I've said, but the results would be disastrous. Troubles returning, more terrorism, more uncertainty, etc. I dread to think what'd occur - especially in shitehole areas like where I live.

Northern Ireland doesn't have a government right now, which all began with that botched heating scandal by the DUP. The dinosaurs which run this country, my word. NI needs the United Kingdom. Unionism still pretty much is over the majority of NI. As stated before, religion/backwards mentality completely runs here (as you might know, says a lot that gay marriage is still banned, and bible bashing is the norm), especially paramilitaries too. Speaking of the paras, the police can't do anything about them. Outlawed in the areas - and some folk actually prefer paramilitary justice. Stacey Dooley done a good documentary on Northern Ireland there, I'd recommend checking it out.

Most people here would refer to themselves as 'British' (personally, I'd say I'm Northern Irish - though I've applied for my Irish passport recently, so I'll be holding both - random fact out there haha). Just because it doesn't fit with the English's agenda, doesn't mean the country should be tossed aside or folk who don't know what they're talking about demanding a united Ireland without actually knowing anything about Northern Ireland. (hell, call yourself 'Irish' here or wave an Ireland flag, and you'd most likely be burned out of your house. No exaggeration).

Someone I know (who lives in London, England) from an Oasis fan forum travelled over here to stay at mine for a few nights. It actually educated him a lot about NI/areas like here, and he was very shocked to say the least. Perhaps some folk here need to do the same. This is why I was glad news sites and such were covering NI, and opening some eyes.

*EDIT:* Nothing personal by the way, and don't mean it to sound that way. It's just how things are, sadly. Besides, it's a guarantee that the Good Friday Agreement will be stuck to, and NI aren't leaving the United Kingdom anytime soon. The risks wouldn't be worth it - the UK government know that too. It'd just be another colossal fuck-up.


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## Draykorinee (Aug 4, 2015)

Nothing Finer said:


> Why does Northern Ireland want to be in the UK if the rest of the UK doesn't want it?


That's not the case though is it?


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## DOPA (Jul 13, 2012)

BRITLAND said:


> What about Pro-Remain London? London independence anyone?


Fuck that, I'd have to move out of London in that case :lol.


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## BRITLAND (Jun 17, 2012)

DOPA said:


> Fuck that, I'd have to move out of London in that case :lol.


You could always move to Brexit heartlands like Sunderland, Boston, Skegness and Hartlepool :smile2:


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## Kiz (Dec 2, 2006)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1067364193907744768


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## Draykorinee (Aug 4, 2015)

Good news, the economy should only shrink by about 4% because of Brexit.  Cost us about £100 billion a year.

Phew.

It'll be worth it for my blue passport made in France and not giving them £17 billion a year!

More money for our struggling health service!

Wait. 

£17,000,000,000 -
£100,000,000,000=

-£83,000,000,000

Fuck.


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## Tag89 (Jul 27, 2014)

it's all fucked


----------



## Reaper (Sep 4, 2013)




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## Doc (Oct 4, 2010)

BRITLAND said:


> What about Pro-Remain London? London independence anyone?


Let them have independence. They can keep their sky high knife crime rates, overpriced living accommodation and general arseholeness in their own little bubble away from everyone else.


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## Draykorinee (Aug 4, 2015)

Doc said:


> Let them have independence. They can keep their sky high knife crime rates, overpriced living accommodation and general arseholeness in their own little bubble away from everyone else.


Lol, good luck losing 25% of our GDP.


----------



## Reaper (Sep 4, 2013)

Draykorinee said:


> Lol, good luck losing 25% of our GDP.


I wouldn't call it your GDP. I would call it stolen wealth from India.

It's amusing listening to Brits talk about their welfare programs and economy when it would not currently exist as a power without the approximate 10 trillion they made off of India during the occupation.


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## greasykid1 (Dec 22, 2015)

One major mistake in logic that "Leavers" make every day, in every discussion I've seen or been part of, is that "Britain stood on it's own two feet for many years before the EU, so we can do so again!"

The first half of the statement is true, of course. But people always tack on the second half, almost as a conclusion to the first, and that's just completely inaccurate.

Once the UK entered into the EU, the UK's political and financial climate changed, forever.

We can't go back to this magical, fantasy version of Britain, where everything was amazing and controlled perfectly by our own people. First, because that never existed. But second, because the UK's position in the EU over the years has changed the UK. We are no longer the great exporter of dozens of British products. Furthermore, the industries that produced those products are either a shadow of what they once were, or they are dismantled completely.

It's all very well to say "so we build those industries back up" - but this is a plan put forward by people that have absolutely no idea about economics OR politics. It's not a case of simply "opening a bunch of factories making this/that".

It is a DECADES LONG process to build industry. Not only that, once the UK has pissed off over half of the world by pulling out of the EU, no matter how much we produce, we will struggle to SELL it to anyone.

"Trump will have our back", people say.

No. He won't. He literally said just a few days ago that under the current BREXIT agreement, the UK would lose trading privileges with the US.

So, what's left?

I know that being part of the EU is expensive and annoying. I don't see the EU as a great organization that makes everything peachy. But it is BY FAR the better option to be a part of it than to leave it.

If you really think that BREXIT can be anything but terrible for the country, why don't you look at the politicians that backed it leading up to the referendum. That is, if you can find any that haven't quit in disgrace and embarrassment.

If you still need persuasion, look at Nigel Farage. Farage, the UKIP mouthpiece. The centre of the argument for being BRITAIN. Standing on our own and being PROUD and BRITISH.

He just got his family members German passports. Why? Because being British post BREXIT is going to be absolutely shit.


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## Death Rider (May 18, 2011)

Reaper said:


> Draykorinee said:
> 
> 
> > Lol, good luck losing 25% of our GDP.
> ...


Every country has a fucked up past. Please don't act like American is clean and never did anything fucked up. Also London is still 25% of our GDP so yeah getting rid of London would be goddman stupid


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## Draykorinee (Aug 4, 2015)

Reaper said:


> Draykorinee said:
> 
> 
> > Lol, good luck losing 25% of our GDP.
> ...


You're preaching to the converted. A meme is doing the rounds that says something like 'the EU owes us trillions from winning World war 2 and saving them from Nazis'

My reply is always, that's fine but can we send the trillions to India, Africa etc that we raped for centuries.


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## Goku (Feb 25, 2007)

Draykorinee said:


> Lol, good luck losing 25% of our GDP.


And GDP is so vitally important because...?


----------



## Reaper (Sep 4, 2013)

Roy Mustang said:


> Every country has a fucked up past. Please don't act like American is clean and never did anything fucked up. Also London is still 25% of our GDP so yeah getting rid of London would be goddman stupid


Of course Americans are sitting on stolen wealth as well (their entire economy today is shaped by centuries of slavery), but America's history of colonization and occupation can't hold a candle to the Brits' looting of India. Not even close. The British Raj was no better than legalized piracy and the British Royals murderous, looting scumbags. 

BTW. I don't hold anything against modern Brits. I really like you lot. The problem I have is that after centuries of looting we have a generation (some of whom were alive during the occupation and looting of India) demanding isolation as though that is the answer to England's financial problems. I don't think it is. I think it's a false belief that England can be self sufficient and the relationship to colonization is that the British monarchy created a false impression of self sufficient England while hiding the fact that British wealth was stolen and not earned. 




Draykorinee said:


> You're preaching to the converted. A meme is doing the rounds that says something like 'the EU owes us trillions from winning World war 2 and saving them from Nazis'
> 
> My reply is always, that's fine but can we send the trillions to India, Africa etc that we raped for centuries.


I wonder if unbiased war analysts would attribute the victory of WWII to the brits tbh. Wasn't it mostly the Americans and the Soviet Union?


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## Draykorinee (Aug 4, 2015)

Reaper said:


> I wonder if unbiased war analysts would attribute the victory of WWII to the brits tbh. Wasn't it mostly the Americans and the Soviet Union?


I don't see why any unbiased war analysts would attribute victory to any one side which is why I despise the whole 'America saved us from speaking German' bullshit you get from over there. Brits don't tend to make a claim that they won the war for XYZ unless you're talking about the French/German, and its normally only banter then instead of a genuine belief that Britian won the war.

Most British people know full well without the Russians we'd have struggled to get a statelmate and without the Americans we probably would have been eventually crushed. But the same logic doesn't seem to apply to Americans who seem to delight in informing everyone they saved the day.

FWIW I firmly believe without Britain, America would have been fighting a stalemate, we held the platforms for attack, without our island and territory at the time America wouldn't have got close to Europe.


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## Reaper (Sep 4, 2013)

Draykorinee said:


> FWIW I firmly without Britain America would have been fighting a stalemate, we held the platforms for attack, without our island and territory at the time America wouldn't have got close to Europe.


One thing I've learned is that while education of the masses includes teaching people what propaganda is, it seems like society by and large is ill-equipped to recognize it when it's their own governments creating and pushing the propaganda. Almost all countries seem to have their own narratives of what happened and in some extreme cases people's entire identities and realities are shaped by their localized myths.

For example, in America it is widely believed that Americans have been fighting wars in the name of good and saving people in much the same vein as they did during WWII and that they actively "won" those wars as well. (That's the mass belief that I've observed from talking to people here in the south and reading the general vibe around wars), but few people tend to accept that America has been on the wrong side of most of their wars and also created far more misery back home as a result. The misery of the veterans while spoken of is easily brushed aside while the misery in the countries that America creates war in don't even get spoken about. Most people don't even know how many wars America is currently embroiled in. It's gotten that bad over the last 16 years.


----------



## Death Rider (May 18, 2011)

We may be OK on our own under a competent government but yeah not feeling positive since we are run by a bunch of morons. Kind of prefer no deal to the deal we got as it seems like all the bad parts of the EU without any benefits


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## greasykid1 (Dec 22, 2015)

Roy Mustang said:


> We may be OK on our own under a competent government but yeah not feeling positive since we are run by a bunch of morons. Kind of prefer no deal to the deal we got as it seems like all the bad parts of the EU without any benefits


Yeah.

No Deal - or "Hard BREXIT" is the best BREXIT option. While I didn't vote to leave, and would never do so, IF leaving is the only option, I'd much prefer no deal.

What we are getting now, under this "deal" is a UK that is still completely controlled by EU law, but no longer has any MEP's in the EU, or any say in how the EU is run.

We are saving NO money by being out of the EU. In fact, we will end up paying just as much, if not more, in import/export taxes, as well as for the goods that we buy from EU members, which will now be at a much higher price, because we aren't part of the EU ourselves.

It is abundantly clear that May does not WANT the UK to leave the EU. She is pandering to the people that voted "leave", but in name only. The UK will "officially" no longer be a member of the EU, but nothing that EU law controls will change.

BREXIT was never anything to do with how the NHS was run, or border control, or immigration. These were all things that were thrown up as a smokescreen by people like Farage and Johnson. The shocking thing to me was that people fell for it.

The reports that we had, the day after the result, of people literally going to their foreign neighbours and telling them to pack their bags because BREXIT means they're leaving the country ... 

Way too many people voted without know what they were voting for. That is what makes the whole thing a farce. It was made clear from the start that this referendum was supposed to be a way to "gauge the mood" of the public. An "advisory vote" at best.

David Cameron should have had the balls the day after the vote to simply say "We hear you. You have a lack of confidence in our role in the EU. We will work on this."

It's simply unfeasible to pull out of the EU without causing massive financial and political upheaval within our own country. I keep hearing "leavers" saying "Yes, it'll be tough for a while, but the eventual outcome will be positive". That's bullshit. The fallout from BREXIT will last for decades and the country will recover because it HAS TO recover. But we will still end up in a worse position than we ever were when in the EU.

One last thing to consider ... While in the EU, UK's MEPs voted in favour of more than 98% of all bills put forward. The UK's MEPs were all there, involved in the discussions and voting FOR everything that the EU put in place.

HOW is removing us from the EU going to change anything, when the EU is only doing things that the UK's representatives agree with!?

_Ugh. Enough ranting about this. Just makes me so very tired!_


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## Nothing Finer (Apr 12, 2017)

The deal on offer from Europe may be the worst deal signed by any country in history in time of peace, but it's still much better than no deal. That's why the EU have offered it and why the UK government have accepted it, with even some of the real hardcore accepting it. The UK is incredibly exposed by no deal, it would be a catastrophe, most people have no idea how bad it would be. No country has ever done anything like this and with good reason. This great phrase "Project Fear" gives people a reason to dismiss everything and sail on in blissful ignorance. 

The deal is a humiliation for the UK, it will be a drag on it for the foreseeable future, but it won't be so bad day to day. No deal will hit the UK like a fucking train. By the end of April the UK will be on its knees begging the EU to give it something like the withdrawal agreement and will accept any conditions attached to it. The eventual agreement in a no deal scenario will be much worse for the UK than the deal currently offered because of how desperate the UK is and how few options it will have.


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## Draykorinee (Aug 4, 2015)

Nothing Finer said:


> The deal on offer from Europe may be the worst deal signed by any country in history in time of peace, but it's still much better than no deal.


:banderas

Great post overall, couldn't agree more. A no deal scenario is the worst possible outcome.



greasykid1 said:


> Yeah.
> 
> No Deal - or "Hard BREXIT" is the best BREXIT option.


A really good post except for this bit!

I'd rather leave on good terms than piss off our biggest partners and ruin our economy even more than needed.

Both are utterly ridiculous though.


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## greasykid1 (Dec 22, 2015)

Draykorinee said:


> :banderas
> 
> Great post overall, couldn't agree more. A no deal scenario is the worst possible outcome.
> 
> ...


Yeah, I know what you mean. Hard Brexit is a horrible option as well.



Nothing Finer said:


> The deal on offer from Europe may be the worst deal signed by any country in history in time of peace, but it's still much better than no deal. That's why the EU have offered it and why the UK government have accepted it, with even some of the real hardcore accepting it.  The UK is incredibly exposed by no deal, it would be a catastrophe, most people have no idea how bad it would be. No country has ever done anything like this and with good reason. This great phrase "Project Fear" gives people a reason to dismiss everything and sail on in blissful ignorance.
> 
> The deal is a humiliation for the UK, it will be a drag on it for the foreseeable future, but it won't be so bad day to day. No deal will hit the UK like a fucking train. By the end of April the UK will be on its knees begging the EU to give it something like the withdrawal agreement and will accept any conditions attached to it. The eventual agreement in a no deal scenario will be much worse for the UK than the deal currently offered because of how desperate the UK is and how few options it will have.


At this point, I'd rather the Prime Minister addressed the people of the UK and just explained that this deal is the best option, and it still fucking sucks. She should remind everyone that the public vote was not binding, and state that the experts in the matter have decided that BREXIT is not workable in any way.

I can't imagine any outcome of that, that would be as bad as taking this deal!


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## Pinfall Wizard (Nov 21, 2018)

Being someone who voted leave i'm disgusted that they've been trying to desperately derail our leaving of the EU since the vote.
When you live in a country where we need approval from an unelected bunch of self-serving parasites for anything we want to do that would benefit the country you realise that they would try anything to stop it under any circumstances, I only know 2 people in my immediate circle of friends and family who voted to remain which really surprised me as I thought I would be in the minority.
If they vote again Democracy dies and we should contest every single election should it be a bye election or general until we get the result WE want and see how they like it.


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## Nothing Finer (Apr 12, 2017)

Pinfall Wizard said:


> Being someone who voted leave i'm disgusted that they've been trying to desperately derail our leaving of the EU since the vote.
> When you live in a country where we need approval from an unelected bunch of self-serving parasites for anything we want to do that would benefit the country you realise that they would try anything to stop it under any circumstances, I only know 2 people in my immediate circle of friends and family who voted to remain which really surprised me as I thought I would be in the minority.
> If they vote again Democracy dies and we should contest every single election should it be a bye election or general until we get the result WE want and see how they like it.


You should! That's what democracy is all about. If you lose a vote and you still feel strongly about it you go out and campaign for another one. 

Labour lost the election in 2015 when every single MP was elected to a 5 year term. Despite that, in 2017 they voted to have another election. The Conservatives agreed. Was that undemocratic? Were you complaining about that?

The problem for leave is that there's no possible version of Brexit that is more popular than remain. 48% of voters voted for the UK to remain in the European Union. Do 48% of people want to leave with no deal? No. Do 48% of people want to leave with May's deal? No. Do 48% of people want to leave like Norway? No. It was only by a coalition of supporters of all of these possible Brexits that leave could win.

The most popular relationship for the UK to have with the European Union, by far, is, and has always been, membership of the European Union. Hardcore leavers know this which is why they are shitting themselves about a second referendum. They know that when a specific version of Brexit is on offer their coalition will crumble into dust.


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## Pinfall Wizard (Nov 21, 2018)

When I went to bed the night of the election I had resigned myself that remain were going to win as there was an awful lot of smugness about from the telly reports that I had seen so you could imagine my surprise and delight the following morning when I realised what had happened.
If I remember rightly 72% of the electorate had voted which was the highest turnout for any election in history, so why didn't remain complain about the 28% who couldn't be bother to vote either way.
We knew when the vote was and what it was about...END OF.


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## Laughable Chimp (Sep 1, 2016)

Pinfall Wizard said:


> When I went to bed the night of the election I had resigned myself that remain were going to win as there was an awful lot of smugness about from the telly reports that I had seen so you could imagine my surprise and delight the following morning when I realised what had happened.
> If I remember rightly 72% of the electorate had voted which was the highest turnout for any election in history, so why didn't remain complain about the 28% who couldn't be bother to vote either way.
> We knew when the vote was and what it was about...END OF.


If that's the case then why would you be afraid of a revote? If people truly knew what they were getting themselves in for then surely a revote would lead to no difference in outcome.


----------



## Nothing Finer (Apr 12, 2017)

Pinfall Wizard said:


> *When I went to bed the night of the election I had resigned myself that remain were going to win* as there was an awful lot of smugness about from the telly reports that I had seen so you could imagine my surprise and delight the following morning when I realised what had happened.
> If I remember rightly 72% of the electorate had voted which was the highest turnout for any election in history, so why didn't remain complain about the 28% who couldn't be bother to vote either way.
> We knew when the vote was and what it was about...END OF.


It still will. This deal isn't going through because everyone hates it, the EU aren't giving the UK a better deal, Parliament won't let No Deal won't happen. The UK will either stay or leave on a Norway+ style deal in which the UK takes all the rules, still pays in and still accepts free movement. 

By the time of the next election the voters will have fully realised how stupid this whole thing was and vote for a party that takes them back in.


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## Pinfall Wizard (Nov 21, 2018)

Laughable Chimp said:


> If that's the case then why would you be afraid of a revote? If people truly knew what they were getting themselves in for then surely a revote would lead to no difference in outcome.


We heard the issues and debated, there were pros & cons either way and we voted with what we felt was right.
David Cameron resigned after the vote as he had put his reputation on the line and at least did the decent thing, the EU have shown themselves to be extremely nasty and only really want us for what we can give them and not the other way round, they've put every possible block that they can to humiliate us.
Why on earth would anybody on earth want to remain tied to them after that show of disdain for the electorate here, they are not democratically appointed and don't respect any vote unless they make the rules.


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## Goku (Feb 25, 2007)

Laughable Chimp said:


> If that's the case then why would you be afraid of a revote? If people truly knew what they were getting themselves in for then surely a revote would lead to no difference in outcome.


Best of 7 imo.

7 is a lucky number for the UK. That's how many Harry Potter books there were.


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## Pinfall Wizard (Nov 21, 2018)

Goku said:


> Best of 7 imo.
> 
> 7 is a lucky number for the UK. That's how many Harry Potter books there were.


Not if you're lucky enough to have never read or never watched any of them and i'm delighted about that


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## Laughable Chimp (Sep 1, 2016)

Pinfall Wizard said:


> We heard the issues and debated, there were pros & cons either way and we voted with what we felt was right.
> David Cameron resigned after the vote as he had put his reputation on the line and at least did the decent thing, the EU have shown themselves to be extremely nasty and only really want us for what we can give them and not the other way round, they've put every possible block that they can to humiliate us.
> Why on earth would anybody on earth want to remain tied to them after that show of disdain for the electorate here, they are not democratically appointed and don't respect any vote unless they make the rules.


You dodged the question. Funnily enough isn’t the first time someone’s done that to me in this thread. 

My issue is more with you claiming that a revote would lead to the death of the democracy. Democracy’s core tenet is that is is a government for the people. I just find it daft to say that a revote would lead to the death of democracy when the other option would mean that the country would be lead into an outcome which the people do not consider desirable.

It’s not rocket science. The people wanted to leave the EU but since then, there’s reasonable evidence to suggest that’s no longer what the people want. It just feels silly to me for a country to tie themselves to a decision that they no longer actually want.

Just do the damn revote. If people still vote to leave than fine. Go ahead. The issue is resolved If they vote to remain than good as well, change the course and do what the people want. I just don’t see any reason why saying a decision was well made in the past means that it can’t be revised. A lot can happen in a year. New information, knowledge, that can change people’s minds. And there’s obvious evidence to show people have changed their minds. It’s just stupid to ignore the people’s current opinion to emphasize the people’s past opinion.


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## Pinfall Wizard (Nov 21, 2018)

Laughable Chimp said:


> You dodged the question. Funnily enough isn’t the first time someone’s done that to me in this thread.
> 
> My issue is more with you claiming that a revote would lead to the death of the democracy. Democracy’s core tenet is that is is a government for the people. I just find it daft to say that a revote would lead to the death of democracy when the other option would mean that the country would be lead into an outcome which the people do not consider desirable.
> 
> ...


I totally agree with you that some people have changed their minds which is absolutely fine but the thing that you forget is that the government have made such a balls up from the day after the vote almost on bended knee in some pathetic apologetic way for ever wanting to leave and waiting to be reprimanded buy these brussels nobodies for doing so.
All scenarios we've heard are doomsday ones as Mark Carney laid out yesterday of course not mentioning the best one as if we're going to become separate from the planet if we go.
It's scaremongering at it's best because they don't want anyone to go as it ruins their plan and 17.4 million said we're gonna take it and not enough who bothered said no.


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## Draykorinee (Aug 4, 2015)

The first vote showed the democratic will of the people, a second democratic vote would destroy that democracy!

I liken it to when I wanted to buy a house a few years ago, I had a good look around, place looked proper good especially with the salesmen giving all the spiel.

I had an offer accepted , paid for the survey and what do you know, structural issues.

I backed out because initially it seemed perfect but on closer inspection and with most of the details known it was actually crumbling piece of shit like Brexit.



Pinfall Wizard said:


> It's scaremongering at it's best because they don't want anyone to go as it ruins their plan and 17.4 million said we're gonna take it and not enough who bothered said no.


Which rejoiner are you?

Are you able to supply an alternative economic analysis that shows Brexit helping our economy?


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## Pinfall Wizard (Nov 21, 2018)

Draykorinee said:


> Which rejoiner are you?
> 
> Are you able to supply an alternative economic analysis that shows Brexit helping our economy?


I would vote leave every time because I haven't heard anything from those in charge other than that Brexit cannot happen without it being a disaster, well trusting them to do their job is a sackable offence as unless i'm mistaken they work for us and not the other way round and they all forget that they asked the public to employ them to do the publics bidding.

I note that every analysis that is mentioned is the worst one that's shown, Britain hasn't collapsed into the abyss as the scaremongers had said it would and I can't recall a best case one being mentioned which doesn't mean there isn't one but the agenda must not mention that because it's not the plan is it.


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## Laughable Chimp (Sep 1, 2016)

Pinfall Wizard said:


> I would vote leave every time because I haven't heard anything from those in charge other than that Brexit cannot happen without it being a disaster, well trusting them to do their job is a sackable offence as unless i'm mistaken they work for us and not the other way round and they all forget that they asked the public to employ them to do the publics bidding.
> 
> I note that every analysis that is mentioned is the worst one that's shown, Britain hasn't collapsed into the abyss as the scaremongers had said it would and I can't recall a best case one being mentioned which doesn't mean there isn't one but the agenda must not mention that because it's not the plan is it.


The more I read your posts the more I think you're just angry at the government that they clearly don't actually want to go through with Brexit and you feel it's a betrayal of the people.


----------



## Draykorinee (Aug 4, 2015)

Pinfall Wizard said:


> Draykorinee said:
> 
> 
> > Which rejoiner are you?
> ...


So no one from the leave side was able to supply a positive economic outcome at all? Got it.


----------



## Reaper (Sep 4, 2013)

Draykorinee said:


> The first vote showed the democratic will of the people, a second democratic vote would destroy that democracy!
> 
> I liken it to when I wanted to buy a house a few years ago, I had a good look around, place looked proper good especially with the salesmen giving all the spiel.
> 
> ...


That isnt the best comparison. 

A second vote is bad for democracy because why accept a result for every election then? How about we have a second vote for everything ever... Why just apply it to a Brexit vote?


----------



## Draykorinee (Aug 4, 2015)

Reaper said:


> Draykorinee said:
> 
> 
> > The first vote showed the democratic will of the people, a second democratic vote would destroy that democracy!
> ...


I don't know if I care enough about keeping up the pretence of democracy, we have unelected officials in the house of lords making decisions, including clergymen, the government selling us down the river with this deal so everyone loses doesn't seem like a good use of democracy.


----------



## Pinfall Wizard (Nov 21, 2018)

When you have unelected people telling you what you can and can't do that's a dictatorship not a democracy, I wonder what the American people would think if they EU had told them what we've been told...don't answer that as it was a rhetorical question and I already know the answer.


----------



## Draykorinee (Aug 4, 2015)

Pinfall Wizard said:


> When you have unelected people telling you what you can and can't do that's a dictatorship not a democracy, I wonder what the American people would think if they EU had told them what we've been told...don't answer that as it was a rhetorical question and I already know the answer.


America is major player though, little Britain is not, we have no cards to play with.

We have an entire house of lords who are unelected, let's not pretend like we have a democracy in our country. Unless you think having 26 randomly chosen bishops impacting what our country does as democratic.

No law comes from the EU without going through the European Parliament, and guess what, we elect them. So let's not talk shit about unelected officials making our laws because it's not true.


----------



## ETateham (Apr 3, 2018)

Laughable Chimp said:


> The more I read your posts the more I think you're just angry at the government that they clearly don't actually want to go through with Brexit and you feel it's a betrayal of the people.


Your god damned right it is mate!


----------



## Nothing Finer (Apr 12, 2017)

Reaper said:


> That isnt the best comparison.
> 
> A second vote is bad for democracy because why accept a result for every election then? How about we have a second vote for everything ever... Why just apply it to a Brexit vote?


Why is it bad for democracy? Many countries do it. Portugal and Ireland have had multiple referenda on abortion, and Switzerland has had multiple referenda on a great number of topics, Denmark and Ireland both had multiple referenda on European treaties. California had 2 plebiscites on the legalization of Marijuana. These are all well functioning democracies.

The UK itself has had two referendums on membership of the EU already, and its Prime Ministers frequently call elections before Parliament expires to give themselves the best chance of winning.

Why is it a bad thing for democracy for people to have the right to change their mind?


----------



## Draykorinee (Aug 4, 2015)

What a royal fuck up this haha. The government is imploding.


----------



## Greatsthegreats (Apr 15, 2015)

there are even adverts on youtube about stopping this, i just don't see how though


----------



## BRITLAND (Jun 17, 2012)

I've been wondering how different things would be if Ed Miliband and Labour won the election in 2015, or even if David won the Labour leadership in 2010 and then the election in 2015...


----------



## Nothing Finer (Apr 12, 2017)

Greatsthegreats said:


> there are even adverts on youtube about stopping this, i just don't see how though


Seems simple enough to me. Parliament opposes the deal, EU refuses to renegotiate, Parliament hands the decision to the people, people decide it's not worth it after all.


----------



## Draykorinee (Aug 4, 2015)

BRITLAND said:


> I've been wondering how different things would be if Ed Miliband and Labour won the election in 2015, or even if David won the Labour leadership in 2010 and then the election in 2015...


This.

David would have been the likelier to win in my opinion. However the ghosts of Brown and Blair would still follow him around.

Now we're stuck with Corbyn, a man who couldn't beat the worst run campaign in my short life, and would probably struggle to beat May now and she has been utterly awful in post.


----------



## BRITLAND (Jun 17, 2012)

Draykorinee said:


> This.
> 
> David would have been the likelier to win in my opinion. However the ghosts of Brown and Blair would still follow him around.
> 
> Now we're stuck with Corbyn, a man who couldn't beat the worst run campaign in my short life, and would probably struggle to beat May now and she has been utterly awful in post.


No doubt you would probably have had Boris as Tory leader and a Labour Govt relying on SNP support. Boris would probably be banging the English nationalism drum to rally up support against the SNP having an influential role in UK wide matters and making outrageous demands in the eyes of many (like scrapping trident), the question is would Boris of come out in favour of brexit and an EU ref for 2020...


----------



## Draykorinee (Aug 4, 2015)

Wow, May and her deal are getting hammered today. This is utterly dead in the water. 

What next May?


----------



## tommo010 (Jul 15, 2008)




----------



## Doc (Oct 4, 2010)

Labour government by the end of the week and I for one cannot wait.
Tories have fucked the common man over for years. At least Corbyn cares about the public he will serve. May is nothing more than Thatcher reincarnated, the true definition of scum.


----------



## Draykorinee (Aug 4, 2015)

Hmmm, not sure we're weeks away from that, it would take a general election.

Maybe we can have another one of those AND another referendum? 

Do you think Cameron ever thought he'd fuck up democracy so much.


----------



## tommo010 (Jul 15, 2008)

Draykorinee said:


> Hmmm, not sure we're weeks away from that, it would take a general election.
> 
> Maybe we can have another one of those AND another referendum?
> 
> Do you think Cameron ever thought he'd fuck up democracy so much.


May will be out by Christmas, either a General Election or 2nd Referendum by April. Best part of this Brexit deal is even the ones who voted leave have been screwed over because most of the issues they wanted they won't get.


----------



## UniversalGleam (Jan 30, 2017)

If we get another referendum then this country can go fuck itself.


----------



## Nothing Finer (Apr 12, 2017)

I for one am absolutely baffled by this idea that a referendum is something which can only occur once, and that to have another referendum is an affront to democracy. Nobody has ever explained this except to say that people who lose a second referendum will be unhappy about it, which is the case in any referendum.


----------



## InexorableJourney (Sep 10, 2016)

If politicians don't listen to the first result why should they listen to the second, or third..


----------



## Goku (Feb 25, 2007)

Nothing Finer said:


> I for one am absolutely baffled by this idea that a referendum is something which can only occur once, and that to have another referendum is an affront to democracy. Nobody has ever explained this except to say that people who lose a second referendum will be unhappy about it, which is the case in any referendum.


The explanation is, why not a third referendum? Or a fourth? And so on till the end of time.

Nothing will ever be resolved.


----------



## Death Rider (May 18, 2011)

I bet half the people who call it undemocratic to have another election would be calling for another one if the results were the other way around :draper2.

Anyway hopefully this deal is shot down. I voted remain but I would rather take no deal then that trash deal.


----------



## Daggdag (Jun 14, 2011)

From what my friend from Manchester tells me, most Yes voters think that they still get all the benefits of membershup in the EU, and simply want to get a free ride, getting all the benefits, but without having to actually live up to the responsibilities that membership entails.


----------



## Draykorinee (Aug 4, 2015)

Goku said:


> The explanation is, why not a third referendum? Or a fourth? And so on till the end of time.
> 
> Nothing will ever be resolved.


That just takes all context out of the decision for another referendum. This isn't some whim like Camerons was, this is because we now have clear evidence that Parliament will not deliver on a Brexit that is good for our country (If there ever was one), we now know what Brexit means, having a binary decision on whether to leave was always a stupid idea.


----------



## Hangman (Feb 3, 2017)

Nothing Finer said:


> I for one am absolutely baffled by this idea that a referendum is something which can only occur once, and that to have another referendum is an affront to democracy. Nobody has ever explained this except to say that people who lose a second referendum will be unhappy about it, which is the case in any referendum.


Any chance we can keep redrawing the lottery numbers? I didn't get the ones I want.


----------



## Nothing Finer (Apr 12, 2017)

Goku said:


> The explanation is, why not a third referendum? Or a fourth? And so on till the end of time.
> 
> Nothing will ever be resolved.


It's in the nature of democracy that things aren't finally resolved until there's a consensus on them. 

In the case of this particular referendum it would obviously be resolved pretty much immediately. A further vote to leave would clearly result in the UK leaving the EU on whatever terms the electorate selected. 

If it were a vote to remain and it were close then yes, there may well be a further referendum. That's not ideal, but it's far better than dragging the UK out of the EU against the will of the people, as not having a further referendum risks.



Ultron said:


> Any chance we can keep redrawing the lottery numbers? I didn't get the ones I want.


Lottery numbers are redrawn every week.


----------



## UniversalGleam (Jan 30, 2017)

Ultron said:


> Any chance we can keep redrawing the lottery numbers? I didn't get the ones I want.


exactly this. 

no doubt the people who want another referendum would be quick to switch tactics and state that "the country has spoken" as soon as the result fits their opinion and would be against another one because they have been pleased.

thats the problem with this idea of another referendum, there is no way that 100% of the population will be pleased no matter what happens so the idea of re-running referendums is total bullshit because there is no reason why we shouldnt have a thrid or a fourth or a fifth or a sixth because there is a group of people that still havnt got the result that they wanted.


----------



## Nothing Finer (Apr 12, 2017)

UniversalGleam said:


> exactly this.
> 
> no doubt the people who want another referendum would be quick to switch tactics and state that "the country has spoken" as soon as the result fits their opinion and would be against another one because they have been pleased.
> 
> thats the problem with this idea of another referendum, there is no way that 100% of the population will be pleased no matter what happens so the idea of re-running referendums is total bullshit because there is no reason why we shouldnt have a thrid or a fourth or a fifth or a sixth because there is a group of people that still havnt got the result that they wanted.


If you think referendums are a legitimate means of determining government policy what is the problem with having multiple referendums on the same subject? Pretty much all countries and jurisdictions that have referendums rerun them. The countries do survive.


----------



## Art Vandaley (Jan 9, 2006)

Nothing Finer said:


> If you think referendums are a legitimate means of determining government policy what is the problem with having multiple referendums on the same subject? Pretty much all countries and jurisdictions that have referendums rerun them. The countries do survive.


Also things have changed, people voted for Brexit under the belief they could get a certain deal, the EU have now told the UK no to that deal.


----------



## Jam (Nov 6, 2015)

:lauren


----------



## UniversalGleam (Jan 30, 2017)

Nothing Finer said:


> If you think referendums are a legitimate means of determining government policy what is the problem with having multiple referendums on the same subject? Pretty much all countries and jurisdictions that have referendums rerun them. The countries do survive.


where did I say that its a "legitimate means of determining government policy"? you are making stuff up. Id rather there wasnt a referendum in the first place.

My point is that if you run two then there is no reason to run ten or twenty. Its a waste of time, its not going to solve anything.


----------



## Goku (Feb 25, 2007)

Alkomesh2 said:


> Also things have changed, *people voted for Brexit under the belief they could get a certain deal*, the EU have now told the UK no to that deal.


did they tho?


----------



## Draykorinee (Aug 4, 2015)

UniversalGleam said:


> exactly this.
> 
> no doubt the people who want another referendum would be quick to switch tactics and state that "the country has spoken" as soon as the result fits their opinion and would be against another one because they have been pleased.


Again, the context of another referendum matters. Parliament are unlikely to okay a deal in time, which leaves a no deal Brexit which I highly highly doubt would have got anywhere near a remain vote it wouldn't have even been close, which is why a Binary referendum is flawed. 

This is not just on a whim to see if people have changed their mind, I don't know why people keep ignoring this fact. 

If no deal Brexit is all we have, then that should have been the option on the voting card. It wasn't and even the most hardliner Brexiteer if they're being honest, knows that a no deal Brexit would have been trounced by remain.

Whole things fucked though.

Edit: Now May is saying she will delay the vote.


----------



## Jam (Nov 6, 2015)

Delaying the vote :mj4

What a mess


----------



## DOPA (Jul 13, 2012)

May's run has been filled with cowardice, so why not add one more example?

Don't understand what she thinks she will achieve by doing this, the EU are unlikely to re-negotiate unless the deal is rejected in parliament so she's delaying the inevitable, she might as well get it over with.

We're getting closer to a no deal situation.


----------



## Death Rider (May 18, 2011)

I have to say if this was not my country it would be fucking hilarious watching this shit show...


----------



## Nothing Finer (Apr 12, 2017)

UniversalGleam said:


> where did I say that its a "legitimate means of determining government policy"? you are making stuff up. Id rather there wasnt a referendum in the first place.
> 
> My point is that if you run two then there is no reason to run ten or twenty. Its a waste of time, its not going to solve anything.


If it's not a legitimate means of determining government policy there's little reason for the UK to leave at all.



Christmas DOPAmine said:


> May's run has been filled with cowardice, so why not add one more example?
> 
> Don't understand what she thinks she will achieve by doing this, the EU are unlikely to re-negotiate unless the deal is rejected in parliament so she's delaying the inevitable, she might as well get it over with.
> 
> We're getting closer to a no deal situation.



It's sensible (if desperate) strategy. If the deal went to a vote tomorrow there's a near 100% chance it would have lost in devastating fashion, she needs it to win. There are three things that could save her deal. They're all unlikely but none of them are unthinkable and she only needs one of them to to her way

1) The EU offers concessions that get the Brexiteers to agree
2) The Brexiteers conclude that the risk of not leaving is so great that they must back the deal
3) The pro-Europeans conclude that the risk of leaving with no deal is so great that they must back the deal

The longer she delays it the more chance of these happens, especially with a summit coming up at the end of the week, today's ECJ ruling having time to sink in, and the clock ticking to parliamentary recess. I still think she'll lose but she's maximising her chances.


----------



## Goku (Feb 25, 2007)

look, it's this guy


----------



## Draykorinee (Aug 4, 2015)

> At least five Conservative MPs are saying on Twitter that they are not happy about the Brexit Withdrawal Agreement vote being delayed, and they will vote against such a delay.


Voting to delay the vote.

PMSL.


----------



## tommo010 (Jul 15, 2008)

Goku said:


> look, it's this guy


Jonathan Pie maybe a comdian who parody's the role of a journalist but he always makes great points through the parody and he's generally spot on with any issue he talks about.


----------



## Goku (Feb 25, 2007)

Just imagine, governments are spending YEARS negotiating deals that don't seem to be pleasing anyone. If you're going to constantly disagree on the outcome, don't waste years doing it. Do it in a few months or annually.


----------



## Sensei Utero (May 1, 2016)

Dear oh dear.


----------



## samizayn (Apr 25, 2011)

A shambles.

The SNP member who called May a pathetic coward though, :lmao


----------



## 2 Ton 21 (Dec 28, 2011)

I get the idea that if you hold a second vote, why not a third or fourth and so on, but it's not like there aren't already recall elections e.g. here in U.S. 19 states have provisions to recall elected governors during their term.

Also, do those against a second vote want it set in stone forever? Like say, ten years from now Brexit has happened and a new vote is proposed to rejoin the EU, is that off limits?


----------



## Draykorinee (Aug 4, 2015)

2 Ton 21 said:


> I get the idea that if you hold a second vote, why not a third or fourth and so on, but it's not like there aren't already recall elections e.g. here in U.S. 19 states have provisions to recall elected governors during their term.
> 
> Also, do those against a second vote want it set in stone forever? Like say, ten years from now Brexit has happened and a new vote is proposed to rejoin the EU, is that off limits?


I'm sure these guys were fine with a second general election in two years because they thought they'd increase the majority. 

Now it backfired they forget about it.


----------



## Shaun_27 (Apr 12, 2011)

Parliamentary ejaculation?


----------



## deepelemblues (Sep 26, 2011)

Jacob Rees-Mogg for PM :trolldog 

It's time to say goodbye to the allures of Somerset for a while, chap. You must save this ancient and most honorable monarchy! Or something.


----------



## Art Vandaley (Jan 9, 2006)

Goku said:


> did they tho?



Yes, they ran on leaving the free movement of labour parts of the agreement but still retaining the free trade aspects.


----------



## virus21 (Sep 22, 2009)

Maybe the Brits should copy they're neighbors across the channel


----------



## Draykorinee (Aug 4, 2015)

virus21 said:


> Maybe the Brits should copy they're neighbors across the channel


I'm confused in what way you think that would go? Are the remainers the ones who resort to being violent thugs or the Brexiteers? 

I think encouraging violent uprisings between two very conflicting, angry groups would be tantamount to stupidity personally.


----------



## CamillePunk (Feb 10, 2011)

virus21 said:


> Maybe the Brits should copy they're neighbors across the channel


lmao the people begging to keep their European masters aren't about to start an uprising, come on now

between 'MURICA and the World Wars I think the Brits lost all the strong branches on the tree, shit's plastic now


----------



## ForYourOwnGood (Jul 19, 2016)

I imagine Mogg is sharpening the knives. I don't know if he has any aspirations for leadership, but when May falls - be it this week, or even in January - it's clear it will be him who's responsible.
And after that, I wouldn't be shocked if a hardliner gained power and steered us towards No Deal Brexit. Projections of the chaos it will cause are not relevant to those who want to leave, and I feel they will gamble on a little chaos if it unambiguously removes us from the EU.


----------



## Draykorinee (Aug 4, 2015)

So it's okay for these fucking brexiteers to have a vote 2 years after voting to have May as party leader but they have the audacity to complain about another referendum.

May means May

Fucking hypocrites.

What a joke we are, the EU must be in stiches.


----------



## samizayn (Apr 25, 2011)

Predictable. May had checkmated herself a good while ago. This was the only outcome. Though it obfuscates the fact that even if she survives this vote, there is still no mandate for her exit deal whatsoever. Just... wow.


Draykorinee said:


> So it's okay for these fucking brexiteers to have a vote 2 years after voting to have May as party leader but they have the audacity to complain about another referendum.
> 
> May means May
> 
> ...


To be fair. I can't say I've seen any of them harp on about DAWILLADAPEEPO as she has. They support brexit, but without this false nobility that May has - they'd simply rather see it happen :shrug


----------



## Jam (Nov 6, 2015)

Vote on whether May stays or gets binned :mj4

Mr burns looking ass bitch


----------



## deepelemblues (Sep 26, 2011)

Draykorinee said:


> So it's okay for these fucking brexiteers to have a vote 2 years after voting to have May as party leader but they have the audacity to complain about another referendum.
> 
> May means May
> 
> ...


Wouldn't avoiding leadership votes because of your tantrum-throwing mean that death, retirement/resignation, or incapacitation would be the only ways a party leader's leadership would end? Is leader of the party some kind of lifetime position now? :hmmm

You're apples and oranging because you're still so bitter and rage-filled that you lost the referendum, two years later :draper2

You want another referendum because you decided the result of the first one was unacceptable so fuck the expressed view of the people. No other reason. The people vote until the result you want is obtained. If you don't get the result you want, throw a tantrum until you get another vote. Repeat until you get the result you want. That's some democracy right there :trolldog


----------



## tommo010 (Jul 15, 2008)

Hilarious PMQs today, Corbyn wanting genuine answers and all May can do is flame and attack the Labour Party this bitch is getting desperate. :beckylol

I think she's gonna win her vote today but her days are still numbered as PM, she'll be gone either after Brexit deadline or if her deal is voted out by Parliment.


----------



## Jam (Nov 6, 2015)

Apparently 86/87 voted no confidence which is a pretty big result for her

Although she said earlier she won't lead the party in the next general election :mj4


----------



## Jam (Nov 6, 2015)

200-117 win


----------



## samizayn (Apr 25, 2011)

Thank goodness. No confidence would have been a disaster at this point.

Still a disaster at this point, mind, but not a catastrophically diabolical one.


----------



## CamillePunk (Feb 10, 2011)

Comparing a second referendum on Brexit before the UK has even left the EU with recalling a PM after she's already been serving her term and you know what you've gotten is ridiculous. Of course once the UK has left the EU you should be able to have a referendum to re-join the EU. Why not? But you're not there yet. 

A more accurate comparison would be if, after Donald Trump was elected but before he took office, the US held another presidential election. That would clearly be ridiculous. That's what people who want a second referendum are proposing, nullify the result of the previous one before it has even taken effect.


----------



## deepelemblues (Sep 26, 2011)

CamillePunk said:


> Comparing a second referendum on Brexit before the UK has even left the EU with recalling a PM after she's already been serving her term and you know what you've gotten is ridiculous. Of course once the UK has left the EU you should be able to have a referendum to re-join the EU. Why not? But you're not there yet.
> 
> A more accurate comparison would be if, after Donald Trump was elected but before he took office, the US held another presidential election. That would clearly be ridiculous. That's what people who want a second referendum are proposing, nullify the result of the previous one before it has even taken effect.


The Brexit referendum was established by an Act of Parliament, so if another referendum is wanted, the proper and legal method of holding it would be... to pass another Act of Parliament. If insufficient votes in Parliament exist to do that, then the solution for those who want another referendum is... to vote into Parliament a majority that will pass such an Act. Those wishing for another referendum clearly do not have a majority of votes in Parliament for doing so. They insist on having another referendum regardless. 

The constitution of the Tory Party says a vote of no confidence shall be held if 15% of Tory MPs officially demand it (and there has not been an unsuccessful no confidence vote within the past 12 months). Which they did. 

On the one side are events carried out in accordance with the law, on the other side are those who wish to gain their objectives outside of the law because they think the super specialness of their beliefs and themselves entitles them to do so.


----------



## CamillePunk (Feb 10, 2011)

So in other words they only like democracy when it gets them the result they want. :lol

That's even worse than not valuing it all, like me.


----------



## Draykorinee (Aug 4, 2015)

CamillePunk said:


> Comparing a second referendum on Brexit before the UK has even left the EU with recalling a PM after she's already been serving her term and you know what you've gotten is ridiculous. Of course once the UK has left the EU you should be able to have a referendum to re-join the EU. Why not? But you're not there yet.
> 
> A more accurate comparison would be if, after Donald Trump was elected but before he took office, the US held another presidential election. That would clearly be ridiculous. That's what people who want a second referendum are proposing, nullify the result of the previous one before it has even taken effect.


You haven't got a clue what you're taking about. Stick to American politics.

People asking a second referendum are asking about taking Mays deal, a no deal or remain, it's an entirely different question to a binary yes or no. Just stop.


----------



## CamillePunk (Feb 10, 2011)

Draykorinee said:


> You haven't got a clue what you're taking about. Stick to American politics.
> 
> People asking a second referendum are asking about taking Mays deal, a no deal or remain, it's an entirely different question to a binary yes or no. Just stop.


You expect anyone to believe that crock of shit? :lmao You just want to overturn the result of the last one, and you've wanted it since long before you knew anything about May's deal. Remainers have wanted a second referendum since they lost the first one. Don't try to bullshit me.


----------



## deepelemblues (Sep 26, 2011)

CamillePunk said:


> So in other words they only like democracy when it gets them the result they want. :lol
> 
> That's even worse than not valuing it all, like me.


Essentially, yes. They are firmly authoritarian in their views and behavior. Themselves being the self-appointed authority, of course.

Your view of the value of democracy is not one that includes favoring authoritarian control by any individual or group.



CamillePunk said:


> You expect anyone to believe that crock of shit? :lmao You just want to overturn the result of the last one, and you've wanted it since long before you knew anything about May's deal. Remainers have wanted a second referendum since they lost the first one. Don't try to bullshit me.


He is actually serious with that drivel :heston

The clear wished-for outcome of a second referendum is the status quo ante 2016 referendum. i.e., an erasure of the first referendum. There is no point whatsoever to a second referendum, if the point is not to render the obligations imposed upon the State by the first referendum null and void.

Not like they haven't been attempting to do so anyway via any method at their disposal. And they've been rather successful in their rejection of democracy so far.


----------



## Draykorinee (Aug 4, 2015)

CamillePunk said:


> Draykorinee said:
> 
> 
> > You haven't got a clue what you're taking about. Stick to American politics.
> ...


I don't want a second referendum, I've said that in this fucking thread. A second referendum would be disastrous.

But if the government can't decide then it should go back to the people.

Nice fucking try.


----------



## Tag89 (Jul 27, 2014)

maybot survives - she's like a end game boss at this point, won't go down

was terrible as home secretary, and got the top job cos she 'lost' the papers on the westminster nonce ring

she locked herself in her own car yesterday, fs. was a merc as well, lol

absolute shambles


----------



## Draykorinee (Aug 4, 2015)

Tag89 said:


> maybot survives - she's like a end game boss at this point, won't go down
> 
> was terrible as home secretary, and got the top job cos she 'lost' the papers on the westminster nonce ring
> 
> ...


I'm telling you, if we'd have got a decent deal, even as a staunch remainer I'd have just said let's move on, but it's so much more maddening knowing that no one is getting what they voted for. 

Well, unless you voted to be in the EU, but no votes, not being able to make any trade deals till we're finally out and still abide by EU laws infill they say otherwise. Oh, and we're paying them for the privilege of fucking us in the ass.

A disaster. 

I'm in awe of anyone who defends this deal just because May was so bad she couldn't negotiate the lock on her door.


----------



## T'Challa (Aug 12, 2014)

She can’t even exit a car how do people expect her to exit the EU.


----------



## Death Rider (May 18, 2011)

Yeah I echo the not wanting a second vote on it. However would not mind vote between his shit deal and no deal. The deal we got means we stay in the EU without any power to change things. Pretty sure majority of people who voted leave did not want thay


----------



## CamillePunk (Feb 10, 2011)

Draykorinee said:


> I don't want a second referendum, I've said that in this fucking thread. A second referendum would be disastrous.
> 
> But if the government can't decide then it should go back to the people.
> 
> Nice fucking try.


Sure seems like that's the view you're most sympathetic to but if I'm mistaken then I apologize.


----------



## Draykorinee (Aug 4, 2015)

CamillePunk said:


> Draykorinee said:
> 
> 
> > I don't want a second referendum, I've said that in this fucking thread. A second referendum would be disastrous.
> ...


The only time I want to see a second referendum is if the government fails to agree any of the deals.

The government will vote against Mays deal, the government will definitely vote against a no deal. There is no legal clarification yet what happens after this. That is when I question whether the people should force the government to accept one of the deals or to remain through a second referendum.

A referendum based on the idea that Brexit would lose now would be very very dangerous, but I do question often why it's deemed undemocratic, the majority will still get their way. I see no difference in the Brexiteers being scared to lose their choice and remainers desperate to get theirs, they're both pretending that they care about democracy. It will be a shamocracy either way. 

If our elected officials agree on a deal, even if I think it's the worst deal or no deal in history, well, the people deserve what they voted for and I'll tell my kids to move out of the UK at the first chance because the country is fucked ?


----------



## CamillePunk (Feb 10, 2011)

Draykorinee said:


> The only time I want to see a second referendum is of the government fails to agree any of the deals.
> 
> The government will vote against Mays deal, the government will definitely vote against a no deal. There is no legal clarification yet what happens after this. That is when I question whether the people should force the government to accept one of the deals or to remain through a second referendum.
> 
> If our elected officials agree on a deal, even if I think it's the worst deal or no deal in history, well, the people deserve what they voted for and I'll tell my kids to move out of the UK at the first chance because the country is fucked ?


So you're staying in case there is a second referendum? I'm not sure how I was mistaken then. It seems like that is what you want. Explain it to me like I'm five.


----------



## deepelemblues (Sep 26, 2011)

Parliament already gave up its say when it voted in 2015 to hold the referendum. The power delegated to Parliament by the people was given back to the people directly on this particular issue. 

Now some joke judge decided otherwise because of political and not legal reasons, but that's par for the course in Western countries these days :draper2


----------



## Draykorinee (Aug 4, 2015)

CamillePunk said:


> Draykorinee said:
> 
> 
> > The only time I want to see a second referendum is of the government fails to agree any of the deals.
> ...


Huh? I want the government that we voted in to make the decision. If they can't then the people should be the ones to decide for them with all 3 options available.

What's hard to understand? 

I don't want a second referendum, I want the government to do the job.


----------



## CamillePunk (Feb 10, 2011)

Draykorinee said:


> Huh? I want the government that we voted in to make the decision. If they can't then the people should be the ones to decide for them with all 3 options available.
> 
> What's hard to understand?
> 
> I don't want a second referendum, I want the government to do the job.


I think I misunderstood the last sentence of the previous post. It seemed like you were saying if Brexit happens you'll be moving.


----------



## Draykorinee (Aug 4, 2015)

CamillePunk said:


> Draykorinee said:
> 
> 
> > Huh? I want the government that we voted in to make the decision. If they can't then the people should be the ones to decide for them with all 3 options available.
> ...


Ah no, I was saying I would get my kids to go abroad when they could because I feel a no deal Brexit would set us back, a facetious comment because I don't want my kids going away!

I think a Brexit that's done well should have had minimal-ish impact and when the vote happened I was kinda laissez faire about the whole thing, it wasn't until the government failed to negotiate pretty much anything that I realised quite how disastrous it was turning out.

If Brexit succeeds and we're in a better position in five years than we are now, there's going to be some humble pie I'll eat, but if not then I want every Brexit voter who goes 'project fear' when every economist says it's going to suck to do the same.


----------



## BRITLAND (Jun 17, 2012)

Despite winning Theresa will be gone by October next year at the very latest imo, it'll be interesting to see who will replace her.


----------



## samizayn (Apr 25, 2011)

^I see that. This is the shittiest breakup ever, complete with hashing over the same old shit (with Brussels) to realise nothing's changed. Honestly, May has got to start working double time on those trade deals she's promising with Chile or whoever, because there is still no mandate for her current deal and nobody wants to call a second referendum. As it stands No Deal will be extremely shit, and it's looking more and more likely to be the outcome come March. Absent any sort of political consensus, May needs to limit the damage as best she can.

Unless the big idea with delaying the vote was to have it held insultingly close to the deadline so parliament are all but obliged to vote the deal through. I don't know. Don't suspect many do either.


----------



## Draykorinee (Aug 4, 2015)

The EU have said they will not negotiate. This helps no deal a lot because it basically paints the EU on a bad light.

Find it hilarious personally.


----------



## UniversalGleam (Jan 30, 2017)

goes without saying that jean claude jackass is a colossal twat.

I wouldve taken great pleasure in watching theresa may clip him with her handbag tbh.


----------



## Nothing Finer (Apr 12, 2017)

I'm sure the German car manufacturers will be along soon to tell the European Union what's what.


----------



## Laughable Chimp (Sep 1, 2016)

Man, I really hope the UK goes through a superhard Brexit. Would save me a lot of money.


----------



## Draykorinee (Aug 4, 2015)

Corbyn calling for a vote of no confidence, it wont get anywhere, just more fuckery.

Useless bunch of twunts.


----------



## UniversalGleam (Jan 30, 2017)

I love how parliament breaks up for two weeks for christmas, they seem to run on school terms with their summer break thrown in.

fecking useless. Corbyn needs to shut the fuck up for once, he just an irritating fly around a picnic.


----------



## Tag89 (Jul 27, 2014)

andy serkis taking the piss out of may was good

p. spot on


----------



## Jam (Nov 6, 2015)

:mj4 at May walking out there

Corbyn ain't gonna get anywhere with that though, this is just a mess


----------



## UniversalGleam (Jan 30, 2017)

*"During Prime Minister's question time today, I referred to those who I believe were seeking to turn a debate about the national crisis facing our country into a pantomime as 'stupid people'.
*

jeremy corbyn there, attempting to twist his idiocy into heroism by lying like a total prick.


----------



## Kiz (Dec 2, 2006)

she is a stupid woman


----------



## Draykorinee (Aug 4, 2015)

Corbyn calls May a stupid woman Tories flip the fuck out, pathetic triggered twats.


----------



## Death Rider (May 18, 2011)

Wow the tories are a bunch of snowflakes


----------



## DOPA (Jul 13, 2012)

Jeremy Corbyn did nothing wrong.

It's just partisan politics at it's finest, the same Labour supporters defending Corbyn would flip out if it were Dianne Abbott being called that (which she also is).


----------



## DesoloutionRow (May 18, 2014)

You can check out any time you like, but you can never leave.


----------



## tommo010 (Jul 15, 2008)

Pretty much sums up my thoughts 

and "Grotbaggs on a diet" :beckylol


----------



## Draykorinee (Aug 4, 2015)

Christmas DOPAmine said:


> Jeremy Corbyn did nothing wrong.
> 
> It's just partisan politics at it's finest, the same Labour supporters defending Corbyn would flip out if it were Dianne Abbott being called that (which she also is).


I'd applaud any Tory calling Abott a stupid woman actually.


----------



## BRITLAND (Jun 17, 2012)

> ENGLAND should quit the United Kingdom in order to deliver Brexit, a top Leaver has suggested.
> 
> Former Ukip leader Diane James said a "radical step-change" could be necessary if Brexit is ever actually going to happen.
> 
> ...


https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/brexit/8068963/england-leave-uk-to-quit-eu/

Not gonna lie the UK breaking into four sovereign states might bring more peace to the British Isles than we have presently :lol

Would be hilarious to see NI be independent and the pissed off reactions of both unionists and nationalists :lol


----------



## Draykorinee (Aug 4, 2015)

I think Scotland will go in the next 5 regardless.

Nearly 2019, the act of Brexit is nearly here thank fuck, can't wait till this shot is done way or the other.

Now for ten years+ of the aftermath.


----------



## Reaper (Sep 4, 2013)

We see this kind of disingenuous nonsense right here on WF so I'm not surprised we're seeing it in the british media. 

I mean, remember how triggered christians get if you call what they believe a bunch of fairy tales and call us bigots and all that disingenuous crap.

It's just "how can I call myself a victim today" nonsense. The right winger's disingenuous bullshit about "freedom of speech" exposes itself the minute they get a chance to wear the "he's opresshuning me" garb. And trust me, they look for it all the time. Far Right twitter is FULL of their own version of outrage culture. I know, I spent a year following a lot of far right tools :lol


----------



## deepelemblues (Sep 26, 2011)

Isn't it the fact that Corbyn called May a "stupid woman" during a parliamentary session that is the issue? It's against the rules of parliamentary debate, if you are an MP you can't directly insult other MPs while participating in session? Or maybe the rule extends outside of the halls of Parliament, not sure on that. 

It _is_ definitely a rule that as an MP you can't insult a fellow MP like that at the place and time Corbyn did. There are indirect ways to verbally insult a fellow MP that are kosher. Corbyn should have availed himself of them. 

I personally would never wish to limit Reaper's ability to express his hateful opinions, or any other opinions of his he feels should be shared, if in :fact he harbors any that are not hateful. A dubious proposition, I know. But having such power over another human being is... no thanks.


----------



## Reaper (Sep 4, 2013)

deepelemblues said:


> I personally would never wish to limit Reaper's ability to express his hateful opinions, or any other opinions of his he feels should be shared, if in :fact he harbors any that are not hateful. A dubious proposition, I know. But having such power over another human being is... no thanks.


You're such a snowflake :lol


----------



## Nothing Finer (Apr 12, 2017)

deepelemblues said:


> Isn't it the fact that Corbyn called May a "stupid woman" during a parliamentary session that is the issue? It's against the rules of parliamentary debate, if you are an MP you can't directly insult other MPs while participating in session? Or maybe the rule extends outside of the halls of Parliament, not sure on that.
> 
> It _is_ definitely a rule that as an MP you can't insult a fellow MP like that at the place and time Corbyn did. There are indirect ways to verbally insult a fellow MP that are kosher. Corbyn should have availed himself of them.
> 
> I personally would never wish to limit Reaper's ability to express his hateful opinions, or any other opinions of his he feels should be shared, if in :fact he harbors any that are not hateful. A dubious proposition, I know. But having such power over another human being is... no thanks.


No, his excuse was that he said "stupid people", claiming he was refereeing to many members on the government benches laughing at May's joke. If insulting other members were the issue this would have made it much worse for him.


----------



## Draykorinee (Aug 4, 2015)

Trumps going to give us a massive deal if we go for a no deal Brexit. 

Believe it when I see it but it still won't be as good a deal as we currently have with the EU


----------



## BRITLAND (Jun 17, 2012)

Draykorinee said:


> Trumps going to give us a massive deal if we go for a no deal Brexit.
> 
> Believe it when I see it but it still won't be as good a deal as we currently have with the EU


Right wing think tanks have been making proposals for months now:

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...-radical-plan-for-us-uk-brexit-trade-deal-nhs

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45566508

Essentially a massive deal will involve foreign competition in the NHS, education and legal services if there is to be one. It would be funny to see freedom of movement between the US and UK given Trump's and Brexit's tough hardline stances on immigration :ha


----------



## Draykorinee (Aug 4, 2015)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46789601



> Ms Soubry was shouted at - including being called a liar and a Nazi - during live TV interviews on BBC News and Sky.
> 
> The former minister was later called "scum" and jostled as she tried to re-enter the Palace of Westminster.


What a year it'll be.


----------



## BrutusIsNotMyName (Jul 8, 2013)

You British folk crack me up, almost as much as Americans... BULGARIANS FOR THE WIN !!


----------



## Reaper (Sep 4, 2013)

BrutusIsNotMyName said:


> You British folk crack me up, almost as much as Americans... BULGARIANS FOR THE WIN !!


What is a Bulgaria? 

:troll


----------



## BrutusIsNotMyName (Jul 8, 2013)

Reaper said:


> What is a Bulgaria?
> 
> :troll


:thelist


----------



## 777 (Feb 24, 2011)

I'm not British but I do pay attention. Seems to me UK politicos are purposefully messing up negotiating from a position of strength. To get out from under the boot of an unelected bureaucracy that evidently continues to fuck up the entirety of Europe?


----------



## Draykorinee (Aug 4, 2015)

777 said:


> I'm not British but I do pay attention. Seems to me UK politicos are purposefully messing up negotiating from a position of strength. To get out from under the boot of an unelected bureaucracy that evidently continues to fuck up the entirety of Europe?


Your hot take is garbage. We had no position of strength, the Council of the EU is, contrary to nonsense articles you may have read, not unelected and Europe is not fucked.

The British government is full of unelected bureaucrats, far more than the EU as a whole.

Maybe pay better attention?


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## 777 (Feb 24, 2011)

Draykorinee said:


> Your hot take is garbage. We had no position of strength, the Council of the EU is, contrary to nonsense articles you may have read, not unelected and Europe is not fucked.
> 
> The British government is full of unelected bureaucrats, far more than the EU as a whole.
> 
> Maybe pay better attention?


Like I said, I'm not British or even European. 

However, Europe is grappling with a series of problems right now and Britain pulling it's money is only going to further cripple the Union. You can't look at riots in multiple countries, massive immigration influx and the myriad issues that brings, economic disasters in Greece and Italy, etc. and suggest to me that the EU is enacting legislation that is working. Now you pull UKs funding and try to pass that onto the remaining countries is a recipe for further issues, possible violence etc, that strikes me as a position of strength at least to some degree.

We're just talking right? Relax.


----------



## Draykorinee (Aug 4, 2015)

777 said:


> Draykorinee said:
> 
> 
> > Your hot take is garbage. We had no position of strength, the Council of the EU is, contrary to nonsense articles you may have read, not unelected and Europe is not fucked.
> ...


The economic disasters of Greece etc are entirely due to inept governments and not due to EU legislation.

The French riots are a result of scarily stupid policies enacted by the French government and not due to the EU.

The only thing I will agree on is that the EU immigration policy is helping to cause unrest, but that exists through non EU countries as well, look at places like Norway or even the US. These are not eu specific concerns although EU decisions have had a negative impact on this area.

The UK contributes about £9 billion net a year, it's an insubstantial amount for an economy that makes trillions. The impact of us leaving is actually not in our EU contributions but, if the deal turns to no deal, in the large GDP losses everyone will suffer for our stupidity.

Those losses will be worse for the UK though, which is why they have the power, why would they pander to a small country like us and risk the larger contributers leaving too? 

It's like leaving a gym and telling the gym owners that you have the power so give me free access.

Maybe one day countries like mine will stop bombing and interfering in others so we don't exacerbate migration flows.


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## 777 (Feb 24, 2011)

Draykorinee said:


> The economic disasters of Greece etc are entirely due to inept governments and not due to EU legislation.
> 
> The French riots are a result of scarily stupid policies enacted by the French government and not due to the EU.
> 
> ...


A...number of the policies enacted by individual states within the union are being done as a result of the overarching EU edicts. And even if that weren't the case, it certainly is the perception. 

Given the current situation, passing even 9 billion onto the rest of the union looks like a fools gambit. I'm definitely worried in that I want things to work out one way or the other.

Oh, btw, I didn't say Europe was fucked, I meant the EU was fucking things up and making people angry.

Is there no separation of powers between the EU and the member states or is it vague?


----------



## Draykorinee (Aug 4, 2015)

777 said:


> Draykorinee said:
> 
> 
> > The economic disasters of Greece etc are entirely due to inept governments and not due to EU legislation.
> ...


The EU system is bloated, lots of vagueness and lots of misinformation on all sides it would take an age to understand all it's idiosyncrasies. The EU is not the holy grail like some media portray but neither is it the poisoned chalice others portray.

I'm not even that adverse to leaving the EU if a single person could point out the positives against the negatives. Unfortunately no one has been able to show me a positive that comes close to the obvious decline in our economic output from being out of the EU.

Edit: Our parliament has just voted against planning for a no deal Brexit. Which seems like no deal is off the cards in the minds of the majority of our elected officials. Hmmm


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## EraOfGreat (Jan 13, 2019)

Been a disaster from the start


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## deepelemblues (Sep 26, 2011)

Most migrants from North Africa and the Middle East aren't fleeing war. They're economic migrants who want to enjoy a generous welfare system. 

This has been proven again and again yet the myth that they are fleeing wars the West started will never stop being offered as an explanation.


----------



## JustAName (Sep 17, 2012)

So correct me if I am wrong, but didn't Theresa May say recently that if they can't find a way to solve this problem, there might not be a Brexit and they will stay with the EU? Am I allowed to have a laugh induced seizure if that happens after what now, 2 years of trying to sort it out? What would the consequences be of a No-Brexit? Surely something would come from that happening too? Enlighten me on these things please, sincerely, it's like a car crash in a sense, I don't want to turn away and want to know the likely outcomes even if it looks like a disaster


----------



## Draykorinee (Aug 4, 2015)

JustAName said:


> So correct me if I am wrong, but didn't Theresa May say recently that if they can't find a way to solve this problem, there might not be a Brexit and they will stay with the EU? Am I allowed to have a laugh induced seizure if that happens after what now, 2 years of trying to sort it out? What would the consequences be of a No-Brexit? Surely something would come from that happening too? Enlighten me on these things please, sincerely, it's like a car crash in a sense, I don't want to turn away and want to know the likely outcomes even if it looks like a disaster


Yes, she just said it. A no brexit will cause massive division, it will be a royal clusterfuck. However a No deal Brexit will also do that. 

I remember well David Cameron tweeting this -



> Britain faces a simple and inescapable choice - stability and strong Government with me, or chaos with Ed Miliband:


I don't even know now what I want, I don't want a No Deal Brexit, I don't want another referendum and I definitely don't want us to accept this deal that May has cobbled together.

We shouldn't have triggered article 50 until we knew what we were doing.


----------



## CamillePunk (Feb 10, 2011)

My two suggestions for the UK to salvage this mess:

1) Put people who actually want Brexit to happen in charge of making Brexit happen.

2) Replace the political hacks currently in charge of negotiating Brexit with people who are actually good at negotiating deals. Ask Donald Trump for recommendations.


----------



## Draykorinee (Aug 4, 2015)

CamillePunk said:


> My two suggestions for the UK to salvage this mess:
> 
> 1) Put people who actually want Brexit to happen in charge of making Brexit happen.
> 
> 2) Replace the political hacks currently in charge of negotiating Brexit with people who are actually good at negotiating deals. Ask Donald Trump for recommendations.


1) The secretary of state for leaving the EU have been - 

David Davis Brexit Minister - THE brexiteer was in charge of it and failed and quit.
Then in came chief Brexiteer dominic Raab, failed and quit.
Now we have Stephen Barclay, a leave supporter.

I mean, how much more leave can you get? Nigel Fromage? He turned and ran the minute he could.

2) We don't want trump otherwise we'll end up with dud deals like NAFTA 2.0 or the longest government shutdown in history. We want someone who can actually negotiate, like the EU.


----------



## deepelemblues (Sep 26, 2011)

This is what happens when an incompetent weak buffoon with the political instincts of an autistic cat is your Prime Minister.

Despite the :fact that he'd be a disaster everywhere else, Jeremy Corbyn would be far superior as PM on the Brexit issue because he'd have a coherent policy he would forcefully implement.

Jacob Rees-Mogg would be superior to both May and Corbin as PM in every way. 

There are very few MPs and high level bureaucrats in the United Kingdom whose intellects and personalities would not be better suited to digging ditches or sweeping horse shit off the streets in a Dickensian novel than to their current occupation.


----------



## Nothing Finer (Apr 12, 2017)

deepelemblues said:


> This is what happens when an incompetent weak buffoon with the political instincts of an autistic cat is your Prime Minister.
> 
> Despite the :fact that he'd be a disaster everywhere else, Jeremy Corbyn would be far superior as PM on the Brexit issue because he'd have a coherent policy he would forcefully implement.
> 
> ...


No Prime Minister could have done a good job. The UK's position is too weak in relation to the European Union, it was always going to get a shit deal. If the UK government said it was walking away with No Deal Parliament would topple it. May's deal or a Norway+ deal where the UK obeys the EU's rules with no say and continues to pay in are as good as it could get for the UK.


----------



## deepelemblues (Sep 26, 2011)

Nothing Finer said:


> No Prime Minister could have done a good job. The UK's position is too weak in relation to the European Union, it was always going to get a shit deal. If the UK government said it was walking away with No Deal Parliament would topple it. May's deal or a Norway+ deal where the UK obeys the EU's rules with no say and continues to pay in are as good as it could get for the UK.


The United Kingdom has the 5th largest economy in the world.

The United Kingdom contains within its borders London, one of the top 3 financial centers of the planet. 

Despite being much reduced from its heyday, the United Kingdom possesses one of the largest merchant navies in the world. 

The United Kingdom has a very close relationship with the richest, most powerful country in the history of the world, the United States. 

The United Kingdom's position in relation to the European Union is not weak at all. As would be seen if someone like Mr. Corbyn or Mr. Rees-Mogg were Prime Minister. 

If the United Kingdom is weak in relation to the European Union, it is only because incompetent, weak politicians rule the United Kingdom. Or treasonous ones.


----------



## Nothing Finer (Apr 12, 2017)

deepelemblues said:


> The United Kingdom has the 5th largest economy in the world.
> 
> The United Kingdom contains within its borders London, one of the top 3 financial centers of the planet.
> 
> ...


The UK's position in relation to the European Union is weak because the European Union is much larger than the UK, but more importantly because all of the UK's existing trading relationships run through the European Union and the UK agreed to a guillotine arrangement in Article 50 which cuts all of those off instantly if it wishes to leave.

London's position as a prominent financial centre, and indeed the UK's economic strength in general, is dependent on its strong trading relationships. Leaving the European Union on anything other than the EU's terms is setting all of that on fire.

It's amazing to me that any serious politician thought this could work out well for the UK. The level of integration the UK now has and the guillotine clause it agreed to has meant that leaving should only ever have been a serious option in the most extreme of circumstances.


----------



## 777 (Feb 24, 2011)

Nothing Finer said:


> The UK's position in relation to the European Union is weak because the European Union is much larger than the UK, but more importantly because all of the UK's existing trading relationships run through the European Union and the UK agreed to a guillotine arrangement in Article 50 which cuts all of those off instantly if it wishes to leave.
> 
> London's position as a prominent financial centre, and indeed the UK's economic strength in general, is dependent on its strong trading relationships. Leaving the European Union on anything other than the EU's terms is setting all of that on fire.
> 
> It's amazing to me that any serious politician thought this could work out well for the UK. The level of integration the UK now has and the guillotine clause it agreed to has meant that leaving should only ever have been a serious option in the most extreme of circumstances.


There's no reason the UK can't approach trade independently like they did before the union and every other country does. Like Germany is going to suddenly stop trade with Britain, they no longer need or want those materials based on the political? Or they refuse to reasonable deals...because brexit? Is renegotiating bad?

I don't understand this idea that Britain won't get to do things because they're no longer part of the EU. You don't have to listen to them...that's the whole point.


----------



## Nothing Finer (Apr 12, 2017)

777 said:


> There's no reason the UK can't approach trade independently like they did before the union and every other country does. Like Germany is going to suddenly stop trade with Britain, they no longer need or want those materials based on the political? Or they refuse to reasonable deals...because brexit? Is renegotiating bad?
> 
> I don't understand this idea that Britain won't get to do things because they're no longer part of the EU. You don't have to listen to them...that's the whole point.


Of course they won't stop trade, but it will be under WTO rules, which are extremely unfavourable. 

People who support Brexit and don't understand tariffs think WTO rules are a great safety net for the UK, they're not, they're a millstone round the UK's neck. They prevent the UK from charging different tariffs to different countries, which will either force prices to sky rocket forcing UK consumers to pay more, or bring prices down which will cripple UK businesses.

Furthermore many of the UK's businesses are integrated very closely with the European Single Market. To cut that off cuts off supply lines and causes businesses to have to change practices, which is costly. Many of them may decide that changing to a more stable environment is more in their interests.

You talk about renegotiating - the first rule about renegotiating is that you do it from a position of strength. The UK will be negotiating from a position of profound weakness.

Over time the UK will recover, there's little doubt about that, but it will take decades of pain and there's no convincing argument that there will be any benefits to outweigh that cost.


----------



## 777 (Feb 24, 2011)

Nothing Finer said:


> Of course they won't stop trade, but it will be under WTO rules, which are extremely unfavourable.
> 
> People who support Brexit and don't understand tariffs think WTO rules are a great safety net for the UK, they're not, they're a millstone round the UK's neck. They prevent the UK from charging different tariffs to different countries, which will either force prices to sky rocket forcing UK consumers to pay more, or bring prices down which will cripple UK businesses.
> 
> ...


EU policy has disenfranchised a massive portion of the populace. They're on the precipice of open revolt. That's not a position of strength.


----------



## Nothing Finer (Apr 12, 2017)

777 said:


> EU policy has disenfranchised a massive portion of the populace. They're on the precipice of open revolt. That's not a position of strength.


That's an internal matter for the European Union. It's not relevant to the EU's strength relative to the UK.


----------



## 777 (Feb 24, 2011)

Nothing Finer said:


> That's an internal matter for the European Union. It's not relevant to the EU's strength relative to the UK.


It's leverage.


----------



## Nothing Finer (Apr 12, 2017)

777 said:


> It's leverage.


It's fuck all. How can the UK use that against the EU? If anything it makes it harder for the UK to get a good deal from the EU, lest others decide to follow in the UK's footsteps.


----------



## 777 (Feb 24, 2011)

Nothing Finer said:


> It's fuck all. How can the UK use that against the EU? If anything it makes it harder for the UK to get a good deal from the EU, lest others decide to follow in the UK's footsteps.


We're talking about passing costs onto a population already on the brink of revolt over taxation. I think that's something the EU should want to avoid. Brexit is essentially Britain's own version of revolt, a more civil version. And being heavy handed is probably the worst decision they could make...thus probably exactly what they'll do.


----------



## Nothing Finer (Apr 12, 2017)

777 said:


> We're talking about passing costs onto a population already on the brink of revolt over taxation. I think that's something the EU should want to avoid. Brexit is essentially Britain's own version of revolt, a more civil version. And being heavy handed is probably the worst decision they could make...thus probably exactly what they'll do.


EU GDP without the UK is approximately $16 Trillion. 

The cost of UK refusing to pay with the withdrawal bill is approximately $50 Billion, with the cost spread over 50 years.

In other words, the cost of the UK's departure is 0.3% of the remaining EU's GDP, and they have 50 years to find the money. It's not going to be a problem for them.

Meanwhile the immediate cost to the UK of no deal - according to the UK's central bank - are up to 8% of GDP.

Tell me, who has the leverage here?


----------



## deepelemblues (Sep 26, 2011)

Nothing Finer said:


> The UK's position in relation to the European Union is weak because the European Union is much larger than the UK, but more importantly because all of the UK's existing trading relationships run through the European Union and the UK agreed to a guillotine arrangement in Article 50 which cuts all of those off instantly if it wishes to leave.
> 
> London's position as a prominent financial centre, and indeed the UK's economic strength in general, is dependent on its strong trading relationships. Leaving the European Union on anything other than the EU's terms is setting all of that on fire.
> 
> It's amazing to me that any serious politician thought this could work out well for the UK. The level of integration the UK now has and the guillotine clause it agreed to has meant that leaving should only ever have been a serious option in the most extreme of circumstances.


Your perspective leaves it rather a mystery as to how the Isles ever became not only a great power, but the greatest power in the world for several centuries.

London's position is not dependent on the Continent and never has been.

Ever. 

The UK's trade relationship with the United States does not run through the EU. Or Canada. Or Australia. Or India. Or Japan. Or China. Or any country that is not in the EU. 

The UK can negotiate new trade arrangements with European countries, it is a confession of sheer incompetence to say that that is not possible. 

What a sad state the UK has allowed itself to degrade to if your perspective is accurate. 

Put simply this is a matter of character. Britons of almost any previous time would be shocked and enraged at the weakness of the character of the United Kingdom's politicians, and apparently large sections of its populace. Go make your bed on the ash heap of history, then.


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## Draykorinee (Aug 4, 2015)

Anyone with an ounce if understanding knows that the UK do not have a strong position.

Being 5th in the world against the second biggest economy (EU) in the world, yeah, we're not winning that one.

Our financial sector is entirely moveable and New York will win big from this, $1trillion dollars of assests have already left. Banks DGAF about where they make money, only that they do.

The british merchant navy is 3% of total tonneage, we just scrape in to the top 10. 

Nobody cares that the US likes us.

We had a weak position to bargain from. After Brexit, our position gets worse.


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## Nothing Finer (Apr 12, 2017)

deepelemblues said:


> Your perspective leaves it rather a mystery as to how the Isles ever became not only a great power, but the greatest power in the world for several centuries.
> 
> London's position is not dependent on the Continent and never has been.
> 
> ...


Fine speech, just a little heavy on jingoism and a little short on facts. It's not the 19th century any more.


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## Draykorinee (Aug 4, 2015)

5 more minutes until they vote, going to be entertaining.


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## samizayn (Apr 25, 2011)

Thought for sure the ayes had it 

edit: In all seriousness, this remains a disgrace.


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## Draykorinee (Aug 4, 2015)

Haha, that is a savage burial. 

This is so fucked lol.

May's deal was so bad that even Farrage would take a referendum over the deal.


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## Death Rider (May 18, 2011)

This would be kind of funny if it was not such a joke.


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## SayWhatAgain! (Jul 25, 2016)

Expected. Great rant by Corbyn. Was just missing a mic drop.

What did they expect putting a remainer in charge of Brexit.


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## BRITLAND (Jun 17, 2012)

If this were normal times May would have resigned over such an embarrassing defeat as big as this, in fact she would of resigned long ago under normal circumstances.

Vote of no confidence tomorrow will most likely see the government win as even the Tory rebels won't risk voting themselves out of power and despite the differences between May and the DUP on the Brexit deal the last thing the latter wants is the pro united Ireland Jeremy Corbyn as Prime Minister as well as some of the Blairites/moderates in the PLP e.g Chuka Umunna, Liz Kendall and Yvette Cooper.


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## Draykorinee (Aug 4, 2015)

The world right now - 

:chlol

I do question why Corbyn even bothered with the no confidence, he's got no hope of winning that. Fuck off and disappear please Jeremy, a decent candidate would obliterate this Tory government,


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## Shepard (Apr 30, 2011)

deepelemblues said:


> Your perspective leaves it rather a mystery as to how the Isles ever became not only a great power, but the greatest power in the world for several centuries.
> 
> London's position is not dependent on the Continent and never has been.
> 
> ...


But it isn't possible. We'd need to negotiate a trade arrangement with the EU as a whole, the idea that we couldn't negotiate our own trade agreements is one of the reason why people voted out in the first place. The man who became our first Brexit secretary (and then resigned because of how badly it was going) was talking before the referendum about negotiating a trade deal with Germany despite the fact we couldn't do that as Germany is an EU member state themselves. 

So we'd need to negotiate a deal with the EU, which May has done and it's been comprehensively voted down in parliament tonight, after which the EU have doubled down on their position that they will not renegotiate which they've been pretty consistent ever since the deal was agreed because even that took fucking ages to begin with. It's a bad deal because May has tried to deliver on promises made during the referendum but a lot of these are conflicting (ie "controlling" our borders but also still needing a trade deal with the EU which they'd only accept if we were part of their customs union and needing some access to our borders to do so freely. Pretty much every analyst agrees that no-deal would be disastrous for us in the short term and potentially longer but obviously thats harder to call)

It's not in the EU's interest to give us a good deal because then why wouldn't any of the other countries in it want to do the same? Particularly with the rise of nationalist parties across Europe which would immediately latch on to that.

It'll be interesting to see what happens next. May will win the confidence vote tomorrow most likely which means Corbyn's calls for a general election (which would be pointless and drag this on even further) can finally stop and maybe Labour can attempt to get their act together and stop being useless opposition to the government at such a crucial time. Both Corbyn and May seemed to rule out no-deal as well as another vote but it's hard to see the outcome not being one of those since the deal is dead as dead can be and the EU are pretty unlikely to suddenly change their response on not re-negotiating.


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## DOPA (Jul 13, 2012)

May has done her job as far as coming up with a deal so bad that both Remainers and Leavers are united in thoroughly rejecting it. A conspiracy theorist mind could conceive that this was May's plan all along as a remainer to try and convince people of having another vote on leaving altogether. I honestly don't think it's as far off as people may think, literally anyone could have handled the negotiations better than her. Even Jeremy fucking Corbyn.

Parliament on the whole are fucking terrified of a no deal prospect because of the short term hit it could have on our economy. I think what happens next depends on a few things:

* Does May and/or her government have a back up plan in mind as far as a deal, even if it's a skeleton short term one before working out the details in the event of this defeat? My guess would be no considering May's track record. Even if she did, would the EU want to re-negotiate? My guess would be no. There's literally no reason for them to seeing as a) The deal she gave them practically gave them everything they wanted, she rolled over at every turn and b) The EU are now is in the drivers seat and in their minds I don't think can lose, either we crash out with a no deal which potentially hurts us in the short term or we come grovelling back to the EU in a 2nd vote, and that gives them leverage to integrate us much more than we would like (I could see them pushing for us to be part of the Eurozone including the Euro currency as well as fully accepting the Lisbon Treaty as legalling binding), this is something I think many pro-EU remainers seem to not understand.

* Is there enough time for the 2nd referendum remainers to legally find a way round to pushing forward for the so called people's vote? It's definitely become more possible with May's deal being rejected however the clock is running out. They have just over 2 months to figure something out. They'll try but even pro-EU media like the BBC and Sky News admit that it's unlikely to happen.

* Is there a short enough timestop to run out so we leave the EU altogether with a no deal situation? Whilst it's not the situation I would have liked at the start of this process, in the long run now it might be the best option available because I don't think the government is going to be able to put together a deal, even if it's a skeleton one that the EU will be willing to accept or negotiate. Considering how much leverage May has given them, there's no reason for them to be compliant. It's certainly not ideal but I think for Brexiteers, it's the best we can hope for now.

A general election would solve nothing but Corbyn is so power hungry that I could easily see him taking advantage of this to push forward for it.

I think the most likely outcomes are either no deal or 2nd referendum.


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## Dave Santos (Sep 27, 2016)

^
Im pretty sure there was a conspiracy that even with a referendum Brexit would not take place. And that was a couple of years ago before the referendum took place.


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## UniversalGleam (Jan 30, 2017)

yeah......corbyn is still a piece of shit that is out for himself.

power hungry bullshitter.


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## BRITLAND (Jun 17, 2012)

Paddypower are now taking bets for Brexit - What will the UK government officially ration first in 2019 

https://www.oddschecker.com/politic...uk-government-officially-ration-first-in-2019

:ambrose4:shiiit


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## Sensei Utero (May 1, 2016)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1085244625231716353


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## DoctorWhosawhatsit (Aug 23, 2016)

The more I follow Brexit the more I think the US government should adopt the British system of being able to jeer, cheer, and boo fellow representatives while they're speaking :lmao


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## Ninja Hedgehog (Mar 22, 2018)

DoctorWhosawhatsit said:


> The more I follow Brexit the more I think the US government should adopt the British system of being able to jeer, cheer, and boo fellow representatives while they're speaking :lmao


I think it's nice that both countries have their own way of doing things that make themselves look like incompetent, childish morons

And you know that American politicians would have to up the ante and start shooting at each other when they disagree


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## FriedTofu (Sep 29, 2014)

This divorce is taking way too long. Just came in to say Boris Johnson is a twat with his latest speech. Fk that guy that made this happen for a power grab. And outright lying again today for another power grab.


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## Jam (Nov 6, 2015)

Such a mess lol where do I even begin


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## DOPA (Jul 13, 2012)

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...DG7G6aldq-MsC0l0zpFfU0F0tFk9d6UT2d7r2oh-lK1_Y



> More than a third of Remainers would be upset if a close relative married a strong Leave supporter and almost two thirds say that all or most of their friends share their stance on Brexit.
> 
> Leavers, however, are comparatively more likely to say that they have Remain-supporting friends and are also significantly less likely to be concerned at the prospect of welcoming an EU supporter into their family.
> 
> ...



Interesting results, I'm less surprised than what some people might be by these findings.


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## Draykorinee (Aug 4, 2015)

Also not surprising



> The number of Brexit Remain voters has reached a 12-point lead against the Leave camp since the 2016 referendum, the latest YouGov survey has found.
> 
> YouGov polled just over 1,000 people and found that 56% of voters would choose to remain in the European Union, versus 44% that would vote to leave, excluding non-voters and those undecided.


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## Death Rider (May 18, 2011)

I voted remain but I also find this childish. People had their reasons for voting to leave the EU who are cunts. Just out government are worse cunts


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## Seb (Jun 13, 2007)

This is the same YouGov that had remain winning the original referendum (wrong), May increasing her majority in 2017 (very wrong), and a neck and neck race in 2015 (very wrong).

The only polls worth paying attention to are exit polls.


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## Draykorinee (Aug 4, 2015)

Seb said:


> This is the same YouGov that had remain winning the original referendum (wrong), May increasing her majority in 2017 (very wrong), and a neck and neck race in 2015 (very wrong).
> 
> The only polls worth paying attention to are exit polls.


Yougov did not get 2017 wrong, they got it right.

https://mena.yougov.com/en/news/2017/06/12/how-did-yougov-get-it-right-2017-uk-election/

They also had leave and remain constantly taking over each other until the day, the day before they had leave winning 51/49. 

I've never been a big believer in polls though.


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## SophieM (Jan 20, 2019)

Draykorinee said:


> Yougov did not get 2017 wrong, they got it right.
> 
> https://mena.yougov.com/en/news/2017/06/12/how-did-yougov-get-it-right-2017-uk-election/
> 
> ...


It was the biggest scam ever! I am soo upset as I don't want to leave Europe and am now scared for the future. Shame on England xx


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## Seb (Jun 13, 2007)

Draykorinee said:


> Yougov did not get 2017 wrong, they got it right.
> 
> http://mena.yougov.com/en/news/2017/06/12/how-did-yougov-get-it-right-2017-uk-election/
> 
> ...


Here’s their final poll the day before the election in 2017 saying the Tories would not just hold, but increase their majority:

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politic...-call-poll-tories-seven-points-and-set-increa

Their final poll on Brexit had remain winning as well, from memory so did every other poll. They’re not reliable at all.


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## Draykorinee (Aug 4, 2015)

Seb said:


> Here’s their final poll the day before the election in 2017 saying the Tories would not just hold, but increase their majority:
> 
> https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politic...-call-poll-tories-seven-points-and-set-increa
> 
> Their final poll on Brexit had remain winning as well, from memory so did every other poll. They’re not reliable at all.


 If you look at their election model based on the polls the day before https://yougov.co.uk/uk-general-election-2017/ you'll see that the polls helped accurately predict the result.

The problem with just saying ah but this one poll on that day said this therefore polls are inherently unreliable isn't helpful, yougov polls clearly showed a very close leave/remain with leave regularly ahead of remain including the last 10 yougov polls which were split remain/leave at 5/5 ratio.

The 2015 polls were absolutely incorrect and thats why yougov utilised a new model which very accurately predicted the results.

Anyway, symantics, I've never been a believer in polls, just if everyone uses them then I might as well.


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## Nothing Finer (Apr 12, 2017)

Seb said:


> Here’s their final poll the day before the election in 2017 saying the Tories would not just hold, but increase their majority:
> 
> https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politic...-call-poll-tories-seven-points-and-set-increa
> 
> Their final poll on Brexit had remain winning as well, from memory so did every other poll. They’re not reliable at all.


Nobody thinks polling is a 100% accurate prediction. It's just the best predictor we have.


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## Seb (Jun 13, 2007)

Except they've not proved a very good predictor at all.



Draykorinee said:


> If you look at their election model based on the polls the day before https://yougov.co.uk/uk-general-election-2017/ you'll see that the polls helped accurately predict the result.
> 
> The problem with just saying ah but this one poll on that day said this therefore polls are inherently unreliable isn't helpful, yougov polls clearly showed a very close leave/remain with leave regularly ahead of remain including the last 10 yougov polls which were split remain/leave at 5/5 ratio.
> 
> ...


YouGov's final call poll:

*Tories lead by seven points and set to increase majority*

_Polls only predict shares of the vote – translating that into seat numbers and government majorities is more difficult – it depends on whether a party is winning or losing votes in the right places. The seven point Conservative lead is the same as at the previous election, but we think it is likely they will nevertheless be returned with an increased majority.

For now, YouGov’s final call for the 2017 election is for a seven point Conservative lead, leading to an increased Conservative majority in the Commons._

That's their final poll from the day before the election (7th June, the data on your link appears to cut off on 6th June) and that was completely wrong.

I'm saying polls are unreliable because YouGov has got the last big three wrong - and i'm not citing random polls on random days either, i'm referring to their final polls/predictions prior to the votes. Anything before than isn't really worth paying attention too because things can affect the way people vote right up until the actual vote (e.g. May's PR disaster re social care presumably lost her a lot of support). Everyone knew that Brexit would be close, and their final poll predicted 52:48 remain, which isn't bad in isolation (although still wrong), but they were way off in 2017 and 2015.

Nobody really knows what would happen if there was a second Brexit referendum either (apart from the inevitable social unrest). The only polls I pay any attention too are exit polls as they are usually more accurate.

Edit: Although if you're not a big believer in polls either you're right that we are arguing semantics :lol


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## Draykorinee (Aug 4, 2015)

> Any attempts by Remainer MPs to delay or obstruct #Brexit must be opposed. Today I have formally asked Polish Government to veto any motions by EU to allow extension of Article 50. We are leaving 11pm on March 29th as promised @StandUp4Brexit


Asking another sovereign nation to overrule our own government. 

Made I chuckle.


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## MOX (Dec 6, 2011)

This was put together by some guy with seemingly plenty of time on his hands so I've just pasted his article with a bit of tidying up to suit this forum's formatting. The whole thing is linked at the end and that version contains links for all the laws mentioned below for anyone who wants to check them.

****


There is a type of of brexiter who is motivated not by xenophobia, or Empire nostalgia, or buccaneering trade fantasies, but instead by "all them EU rules". Sadly they can never name a single one. So I have done some research...

The commons library looked at how many UK laws were influenced by EU laws. 

4,514 out of 34,105.

And out of the EU laws that influenced the 4,514 ....Vote Leave discovered 72 that were forced on us against our will. 72! 










So... what inequities were forced upon us, what degradation, what humiliations for a proud island nation?

Let's have a little look shall we?

I have put a link to each law we voted "no" to... and my own TLDR, if you don't fancy wading through the legalese....

(1/72) 29/03/1996 
EU: Food labels should say if Aspartine is present.
UK: Nonsense. Bloody red tape!
(Linked to cancer, headaches and seizures, even Pepsi USA stopped using it by 2015)

(2/72) 29/04/1996
EU: Ban on livestock growth-boosters with hormonal, thyrostatic or beta-agonist effects (carcinogenic residue in meat).
UK: Aw come on - a little bit of cancer never hurt no-one.

(3/72) 03/06/1996 
EU: Safety advisers dealing with transport of dangerous goods on public roads etc must be properly trained and regulated.
UK: Bleedin elf'n'safety gorn mad. Wassamatta wiv a bit a toxic spillage across a playground?

(4/72) 27/06/1996 
EU: we need some conservation measures to preserve North Atlantic fish stocks.
UK: Ah Phooey. There's plenty o' fish in the sea. We've even registered on the website.

(5/72) 22/07/1996 
EU: additives to mineral water must be safe and labels must be honest (eg "spring water" has to come from an actual spring)
UK: This will kill our sales of Dell-boy Trotter's "Peckham Spring Water".

(6/72) 24/09/1996 
EU: posted workers must be given the same pay and conditions as local workers.
UK: You're kidding! The whole POINT of posted workers is to undercut the locals and undermine their employment rights.

(7/72) 09/12/1996 
EU: lets have a consistent approach to data collection on goods traded between member states?
UK: Hmm. That buggers up our carousel fraud schemes, somewhat.

(8/72) 17/03/1997 
EU: Lets tighten up on livestock health checks, paperwork and traceability.
UK: God, you're not still pissed about that mad cow thing? IT'S SORTED! Twust us - we's Bwitish. 
(Soon after: 10 million animals slaughtered during foot and mouth)

(9 & 10/72) 22/04/1997 & 26/06/1997 
EU: We still need to protect those fish stocks.
UK: Aww. Cant we just keep fishin'? There are so few left, we want to catch as many as we can before they are ALL gone.

(11/72) 22/07/97 
EU: OK folks: lets have a single set of rules about drying, powdering and labelling hops - instead of everyone making it up as they go along.
UK: We LIKE making it up as we go along. (Hopping mad now)

(12/72) 20/10/1997 
EU: Don't add tartaric acid to wine. And here's how tariffs on grapejuice from 3rd countries should be calculated.
UK: We LIKE adding dodgy things to wine. And the French, Spanish and Italian winemakers should do what WE say!

(13/72) 11/12/1997 
EU: firms from outside the EU may carry passengers between destinations in the EU (cabbotage) without needing a registered office in the EU.
UK (1997): Not happy.
UK (2021): Splendid idea.

(14/72) 16/12/1997
EU: Lamb and sheep meat to be classified in a consistent way as soon as possible after slaughter.
UK: That violates the English common law principle: "you may as well be hung for a sheep as a lamb"

(15/72) 16/02/1998 
EU: Trucks for livestock journeys over 8 hours must have bedding, feed, water, ventilation, partitions and access for inspectors.
UK: Why spend all that money? Innit all just meat on the plate at the end of the day?

(16/72) 18/05/1998 
EU: This is a Gas turbine/nomenclature/tariff/temporary partial thingy-me-wotsit. 
UK: If that's not worth dying in a ditch for, I don't know what is.

(17/72) 19/06/2000
EU: We are going to intervene in the sugar market to create price stability and protect farm incomes.
UK: We don't like it. (Be really cool if you reformed this system in, ooh say, 2006...)

(18/72) 04/12/2000 
EU: These are our proposed subsidies for fruit and veg growers.
UK: We don't like fruit and veg… can you subsidise laxitives and Anusol instead?

(19/72) 29/01/2001
EU: Let's increase the tonnage of bananas we take from ACP countries at the lower tariff rates?
UK: NEVER! You may take our blue passports, but you will never get your hands on our BANANANANANANANAS!

(20/72) 19/12/2001 
EU: After the mad cow thing and the dioxin thing... maybe we should tighten up on compound feed and how it is labelled?
UK: Knee-jerk regulation is the wrong mooooohve.

(21/72) 27/06/2002 
EU: South Korean State Aid for shipyards is undercutting our yards on LNG tankers; time for countermeasures.
UK: We couldn't care less about Danish shipyards; Thatcher destroyed all of the UK's about twenty years ago.

(22/72) 27/02/2003 
EU: we must ban the advertising of tobacco products in printed media, radio, TV, events sponsorship etc. 
UK: just hang on a mo' - there's good money in those deathsticks, you know.

(23/72) 03/06/2003
EU: we must set up an EU-wide computer system to combat evasion of excise duty on booze etc.
UK: but we like evading taxes…

(24 & 25/72) 22/07/2003 
EU: Proper labelling of food that uses genetically modified ingredients - so consumers can decide not to buy them if they are worried.
UK: Bugger consumers! What they don't know won't harm 'em"

(26/72) 26/01/20014 
EU: airlines should compensate passengers for delayed or cancelled flights.
UK: we don't support this proposal because ...um...because...we are just utter, utter bastards.

(27/72) 28/02/2005 
EU: In 2000 we dropped sugar tariffs for some Balkans countries and we want to row that back a bit now.
UK: NO! (We're sweet enough...)

(28/72) 07/05/2007 
EU: Greece Italy and Spain are bearing disproportionate costs housing asylum seekers - everyone should chip in to help them? 
UK: Sod the Greeks! They shouldn't have put their country so close to the Middle East.

(29/72) 07/05/2007 
EU: OK can you chip in to funding a programme to help asylum seekers return home?
UK: You 'avin a giraffe, mate?

(30/72) 23/05/2007 
EU: Another whip-round needed; to help member States in receiving, and in bearing the consequences of receiving, refugees and displaced persons.
UK: Why should WE help? A friend in need… can sod off!

(31/72) 30/05/2007
EU: Common standard for emissions testing and what maintenance information vehicle manufacturers should provide.
UK: Aw - do we have to? I mean...air polution only kills 36,000 in the UK each year. 

(32/72) 24/09/2009
EU: no pesticides that are; carcinogenic, mutagenic, toxic to reproduction, sensitising chemicals, very toxic, explosive or corrosive.
UK: EU spoil sports!

(33/72) 14/12/2010
_Establishment of a financing instrument for cooperation with industrialised countries (amendment of Regulation (EC) No 1934/2006) ***II European Parliament legislative resolution of 3 February 2011 on the Council position at first reading with a view to the adoption of a regulation of the European Parliament and of the Council amending Council Regulation (EC) No 1934/2006 establishing a financing instrument for cooperation with industrialised and other high-income countries and territories (16440/1/2010 – C7-0425/2010 – 2009/0059(COD))#P7_TC2-COD(2009)0059 Position of the European Parliament adopted at second reading on 3 February 2011 with a view to the adoption of Regulation (EU) No …/2011 of the European Parliament and of the Council amending Council Regulation (EC) No 1934/2006 establishing a financing instrument for cooperation with industrialised and other high-income countries and territories._
EU: we need rule changes to allow us to do development type stuff with middle-income countries (eg China, India & various states that don't meet the OECD criteria for "Official Development Assistance") 
UK: "no" 1st reading & "Yes" 2nd

(34/72) 17/05/2011
EU: There's a potential period of legal limbo between the expiry of current fisheries legal framework and start of the next one. We need a temp. extension to cover the gap.
UK: ("Fish? FISH? - 'ad their chips, their chips, hawhawhaw!")

(35/72) 12/09/2011
EU: Lets create a new agency, eu-LISA, to ensure 24/7 resilience in the IT systems that keep our borders safe (asylum database, visa database, security, fingerprints, criminals).
UK: We LIKE being flooded with crim's and asylum seekers.

(36/72) 27/10/2011 
Apparently we voted against the EU budget for 2012.
Except this data.consilium.europa.eu/doc/document/S… says we voted FOR.
Whatevs.

(37/72) 30/11/2011 
EU: We need a 5% increase in budget.
UK (and NL): No not a penny more!
EU: OK. How about no real terms increase, just inflationary uplift?
UK: Still not happy!
EU: Soz.

(38/72) 14/02/2012 
EU: We've funded food banks since 1987. 13M people rely on them. Then SOMEONE blocked our budget increase last year. Can't we keep the funding going for another 12 months?
UK: NO! Let the plebs starve; the very sight of them affronts us.

(39/72) 09/03/2012 
EU: The European Refugee Fund needs more dosh, to help those countries that are bearing the brunt.
UK: Having taken moral and ethical advice from Voldemort, Sauron and Satan himself, our view is: TOUGH SHIT!

(40/72) 26/07/2012 
EU: We need more cash. Our budget was 1.2% of members' total GDP 10 years ago - now it's 1%. Come on, members? (your national budgets have all INCREASED as a %ge of GDP).
UK: Not a penny. & everything is your fault, & we hate you.

(41/72) 08/10/2012 
EU: The Maritime Safety Agency needs re-organising & more muscle to punish oil spills from ships and oil rigs.
UK: (Gulp! Probs OUR oil rigs.) WE OPPOSE!

(42/72) 21/11/2012
EU: We need a bit more money - really.
UK: We don't care. This is an opportunity to grandstand for our euroskeptic electorate over really tiny amounts of money.

(43/72) 10/12/2012
EU: We need about £0.4Bn for 2012 (Or 4 DUP MP's, if you prefer)
UK: We don't care. This is ANOTHER opportunity to grandstand for our euroskeptic electorate over really tiny amounts of money.

(44/72) 12/12/2012
EU: OK we have trimmed it by about 10%.
UK. Still don't care!

(45/72) 26/02/2013
EU: Canary Islands, Azores, Madeira etc are struggling due to their remoteness. Lets help them?
UK: Tough titty - their fault for being so remote. Can't they be tax havens like Cayman and BVI?

(46 & 47/72 ) 24/06/2013 
EU: We need prudential supervision of credit institutions and investment firms so that stuff like Lehman's and the 2008 crash don't happen again.
UK: Oh don't worry. If the bankers go bust again, taxpayers will bail em out.

(48&49) UK budget grandstanding on tiny amounts.

(50/72) 10/10/2013 
EU: we want to make some changes to the employment contract for EU staff.
UK: they're your staff - do what you wan….Wait! We oppose! (Dunno why….)

(51,52,53) More pointless budget grandstanding.

(54/72) 12/02/2014 
EU: Fund our Hercule III programme to combat irregularities, fraud and corruption affecting the EU budget.
UK: Er…anti-fraud you say…hmm... WE OPPOSE! (Soz.. just got to pop out and make a call…)

(55/72) 11/03/2014 
EU: Let's provide funds for the most deprived - these people are really suffering.
UK: Hey! We have been deliberately CAUSING deprivation with our austerity programme - now you want to undo all that work! WTF?

(56/72) 12/03/2014 
EU: we need to agree rules for funding stuff like development, democracy, human rights, European Neighbourhood. 
UK: every one of those things is anathema to us.

(57/72) 12/03/2014 
EU: We want to establish an instrument to fund stability and peace in countries.
UK: Stability and peace?! Wipe me arse with them.

(58/72) 12/03/2014 
EU: Lets establish a financing instrument for the promotion of democracy and human rights around the world.
UK: Sod off! Lets establish an instrument to wipe out democracy and human rights in the UK. Call it "Brexit".

(59/72) 12/03/2014 
EU: Lets establish an instrument for co-operation with 3rd countries.
UK: Co-operate on THIS, mofo!

(60/72) 12/03/2014 
EU: Lets establish an instrument for development cooperation.
UK: Development. Cooperation. Aid. These words make our skin burn.

(61/72) 12/03/2014
EU: Measures to reduce poverty, promote development, trade, education and science in countries that border the EU?
UK: SOD DEVELOPMENT! SOD TRADE! SOD EDUCATION, SOD SCIENCE AND SOD ALLEVIATING SODDING POVERTY!

(62/72) 12/03/2014 
EU: Help for pre-accession countries to get ready for joining the EU.
UK: SOD THE SODDING PRE-ACCESSION COUNTRIES! SOD 'EM TO HELL AND BACK!!

(63/72) 16/04/2014 
EU: Measures to give FOM workers protection from exploitation.
UK: But we WANT to exploit FOM workers - it helps keep our UK-born workers under the thumb.

(64/72) 16/04/2014 
EU: Boring bit of housekeeping re staff pensions, let's hope no eejit takes this as an opportunity for pointless, immature, grandstanding.
UK: Someone mention my name?

(65/72) 16/04/2014 
EU: Same again re staff pensions, let's hope that eejit feels he's made his point already.
UK: Do you ever get that feeling of déjà vu?

(66 & 67 /72) 30/09/2014 
EU: Now (Cameron) no political donations from dodgy Russians, Criminals or organised bicycle-seat sniffers. Farage? stop spunking your expense account on "other stuff"!
UK: Hey! political corruption is an UK tradition, immemorial.

(68/72) 13/10/2014 
EU: Enhanced labelling for EU Agricultural products; not just nutritional info, but also food safety, traceability, authenticity, health, animal welfare, environment, sustainability.
UK: Less information consumers get, happier we'll be.

(69/72) More budget grandstanding for the Mail readers.

(70/72) 05/03/2015
EU: These measures will protect National Statistical Authorities from interference by their National Governments.
UK: You think? Hahaha - one day we will put Rory Stewart in charge.

(71/72) 05/03/2015 
EU: Some rules about type approval of e-Call systems (they automatically call 999 in a car crash)
UK: More Euro-bollocks. Wouldn't have saved Diana, hawhawhaw.

(72/72) 23/06/2015
EU: The CJEU needs more judges to deal with a big backlog of cases.
UK: But we LIKE cases to wait ages. It means only the wealthy - who can afford to wait - can get justice.

FINISHED!

Cries of "VAT!".
a) My thread was "rules we opposed" not "rules we supported"
b) If a 15% floor is so intolerable, how comes our VAT is 20% and the lowest in the whole EU is 17%?
c) We could have listed sanitary towels at 0% VAT - like Ireland did - but HMG couldn't be arsed.


Source that includes links to all the individual laws stated above


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## MOX (Dec 6, 2011)

So yeah I posted the above list of laws forced upon the UK between 1996 and 2014 with the intent of enabling the non-xenophobic and non-idiotic leave voters to identify exactly which oppressive EU laws that were forced upon the UK that they were so aggrieved by that they determined leaving the EU entirely was the only viable solution to 'get your country' back and returned safely to the unoppressed rule of the ever reliable control of Eton-educated fuckwits. Perhaps there are some that have been forced upon the UK between 2015 and 2017 that aren't listed there? Do regale me with them.

Or feel very fucking stupid. Or admit it was them bloody foreigners coming over here all along. 

I feel like these are pretty much your only options right now, although allow me to be the first to admit that I've been wrong before probably when you consider the law of averages.


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## Draykorinee (Aug 4, 2015)

asuka's magnificent cock-swaddling thighs said:


> So yeah I posted the above list of laws forced upon the UK between 1996 and 2014 with the intent of enabling the non-xenophobic and non-idiotic leave voters to identify exactly which oppressive EU laws that were forced upon the UK that they were so aggrieved by that they determined leaving the EU entirely was the only viable solution to 'get your country' back and returned safely to the unoppressed rule of the ever reliable control of Eton-educated fuckwits. Perhaps there are some that have been forced upon the UK between 2015 and 2017 that aren't listed there? Do regale me with them.
> 
> Or feel very fucking stupid. Or admit it was them bloody foreigners coming over here all along.
> 
> I feel like these are pretty much your only options right now, although allow me to be the first to admit that I've been wrong before probably when you consider the law of averages.


Yeah but what about bendy bananas?


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## CamillePunk (Feb 10, 2011)

CamillePunk said:


> My two suggestions for the UK to salvage this mess:
> 
> 1) Put people who actually want Brexit to happen in charge of making Brexit happen.
> 
> 2) Replace the political hacks currently in charge of negotiating Brexit with people who are actually good at negotiating deals. *Ask Donald Trump for recommendations.*


lmao nvm


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## BRITLAND (Jun 17, 2012)

CamillePunk said:


> lmao nvm


I guess May could do what the Don told her to do a while back and sue the EU for shits and giggles :shrugs


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## FSL (Mar 4, 2014)

Less and than 60 days to reach the deadline and now she wants to renegotiate what she claimed that wasn't negotiable.

fpalm fpalm fpalm fpalm fpalm


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## Sensei Utero (May 1, 2016)

The phrase from the James Bond movie 'Spectre' really does apply here. May is just a kite dancing in a hurricane.


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## FSL (Mar 4, 2014)

Hollywood Utero said:


> The phrase from the James Bond movie 'Spectre' really does apply here. May is just a kite dancing in a hurricane.


Hey I just saw that you from NI, what is the general feeling about Brexit round there?


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## Sensei Utero (May 1, 2016)

FSL said:


> Hey I just saw that you from NI, what is the general feeling about Brexit round there?


https://www.wrestlingforum.com/anyt...ntinues-colossal-fuck-up-17.html#post76475978

https://www.wrestlingforum.com/anyt...ntinues-colossal-fuck-up-18.html#post76484070

https://www.wrestlingforum.com/76484348-post178.html

I refer back to some of those posts for some background. I live in a DUP/TUV controlled area, partially ran by paramilitaries, as well as the surrounding nearby towns/areas. Considering my area voted Brexit by a majority, and the backwards views of here - most folk are actually excited by the prospect of being out of the EU. It's mostly 'to get the foreigners out, yeo~! Take back our United Kingdom!'.

Overall as a country, it's sorta mixed views. DUP voters are gonna back their party, 'cause they're the unionists and if you go against that, you may as well be an IRA supporter in their eyes. On the otherhand, Sinn Fein are sorta trying their best to get an All Ireland vote. Considering there's no government here at the moment due to the RHI scheme, it's pretty dire, and no one has a clue what's gonna happen. Just glad I've applied for my Irish passport (to hold with a UK one too).


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## FSL (Mar 4, 2014)

Hollywood Utero said:


> I refer back to some of those posts for some background. I live in a DUP/TUV controlled area, partially ran by paramilitaries, as well as the surrounding nearby towns/areas. Considering my area voted Brexit by a majority, and the backwards views of here - most folk are actually excited by the prospect of being out of the EU. It's mostly 'to get the foreigners out, yeo~! Take back our United Kingdom!'.
> 
> Overall as a country, it's sorta mixed views. DUP voters are gonna back their party, 'cause they're the unionists and if you go against that, you may as well be an IRA supporter in their eyes. On the otherhand, Sinn Fein are sorta trying their best to get an All Ireland vote. Considering there's no government here at the moment due to the RHI scheme, it's pretty dire, and no one has a clue what's gonna happen. Just glad I've applied for my Irish passport (to hold with a UK one too).


I'm an EU immigrant in England considered a "highly qualified one".
Well, it's sad to see the thing unfold like this. Even in my workplace people don't talk about this anymore (my English colleagues included) out of embarrassment, it's been way too toxic for way too long.

The government website states that EU citizens will be protected even in a case of no deal. 

As I've been saying: "I feel happy here in England but I'm grateful to have another nationality as it gives me more options in case of a disaster"

I just want this to end tbh. Either way we have to put it to rest.


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## Draykorinee (Aug 4, 2015)

Its going well, MPs voted to change the Brexit deal and the EU said no.

So....we're no further than we were before ><


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## roblewis87 (Oct 18, 2016)

I agree with something I read the other day. How broken is our system that a party with a minority government is able to dominate the process on a matter like this is a huge part of the problem. 

The Conservatives set article 50 yet here we are some 30 days out and only now they are loosely looking to the wider commons for a resolution to the matter, even then they don't like what they are told so now return to looking inward to the Brexit Conservatives and paid off DUP to get anything over the line. 

May's blatent denial that her plan is the only option is beyond a joke. It got so widely rejected that she should have to open herself up to other options, even ones she really doesn't want to turn to, to get this deal done. 

The last two weeks have been beyond ridiculous. Corbyn was right, reaching out to the other parties was purely a stunt because she immediately ignored them and turned to her own minority government to salvage her deal. 

Both Ireland and the EU said that the chance for talking was over regarding the terms of the divorce. Made even worse by the fact May and the Tories signed off on the terms of the divorce bill weeks/months ago given both parties the justification to hold steady on that tactic. 

This week was a pure waste of time. Let's try some alternatives, any that resolved the stalemate were voted down and the two that passed essentially could be simply met with the words "No" from Europe so nothing changes at all. 

Heading for no deal or an extension to article 50 because they are failing miserably to put their own pride to one side and actually resolve this matter for the good of the country.


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## FSL (Mar 4, 2014)

The thing is you extend the article 50 and then what? 
The House of Commons will sabotage any deal that is put forward, May's government is weak and the Tory party is divided unless in cases when they fear they are gonna lose power (ie motions of no-confidence). 
It's a No-Deal or revoking article 50.
It really came down to that.


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## roblewis87 (Oct 18, 2016)

Extending article 50 is not the solution but it stops no deal and will open up the EU to further discussions to break the deadlock. 

The impression I get is:

The EU does not want the UK to leave, The EU does not want a no deal outcome. 

The UK does not want to accept a weak deal (which is what we are facing) The UK does not want a no deal outcome. 
The Conservatives are more concerned about maintaining power/control than doing what's right for the country and Labour and friends are not doing enough to blow open this fact. 

The deal with the DUP is an absolute disgrace to the progress of politics in this country right now and I don't blame the DUP at all for that, of course they would accept the money and having a say in the outcome to Brexit, this is their only chance for that otherwise they would be overlooked like the rest. 

With 30 days left, more time is required for anything positive to come from this for all sides especially the UK.


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## tommo010 (Jul 15, 2008)




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## BRITLAND (Jun 17, 2012)

An interesting deal that Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn should consider supporting:


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## DesolationRow (Oct 11, 2009)

Tory MPs simply cutting the cord on supporting Theresa May is a devastating lamming for her, once again leaving her twisting in the proverbial wind. Utterly humbling to put it mildly. With dozens of pro-Brexit politicians washing their hands of her with this latest defeat--303 votes to 258--May has perhaps reached the nadir (thus far) of her efforts.


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## Draykorinee (Aug 4, 2015)

Wow, May defeated again, there is no end to this farce. No deal more likely each day. Disaster.


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## Draykorinee (Aug 4, 2015)

The new 'independent group' are going to form a party on the premise of a new referendum...that went well for the lib dems.

I honestly can't remember a worst time in global politics.


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## Draykorinee (Aug 4, 2015)

Final change for May to get the deal through and it's going to fail. 

Then is a vote on no deal, which will lose.

Then we're fuck out of ideas.


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## 2 Ton 21 (Dec 28, 2011)

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-47547887



> *Brexit: MPs reject Theresa May's deal by 149 votes*
> 
> Prime Minister Theresa May's EU withdrawal deal has been rejected by MPs for a second time, throwing her Brexit strategy into further confusion.
> 
> ...


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## DOPA (Jul 13, 2012)

@Draykorinee @BRITLAND @CJ @DesolationRow

May losing yet again on her deal was an incredibly predictable outcome. The only way her deal was ever going to get through was if she was able to get some serious concessions from the EU, which she wasn't going to get because she gave them everything they could want. In a position of strength in these negotiations which May handed over without any fight whatsoever, what incentive do the EU have to give up what was already willingly given to them?

At the same time, MP's on the whole are terrified on the prospect of a no deal so should there be a vote on that, it will also likely be rejected which leaves one other option: extending article 50. Honestly, it's touch and go whether it would get voted for and ideally I don't think many people would want this to be the result but whilst it could go either way, I'm inclined to believe it would get voted for as there are incentives for a lot of different sides to do so. For those who are loyal to May and/or some of the Brexiteers it would allow them more time to try and conjure up a deal which is acceptable enough to get through to parliament. For 2nd referendum remainers whether they would like to secretly reverse Brexit or are public about it, delaying Brexit gives them more time to convince parliament and the public at large that a 2nd referendum is the only way to break the deadlock, and they can use the failings of May's government and all the rejected votes as arguments for their cause. If you are a remainer who wants to reverse the 2016 result, it's on the whole better to delay the outcome than to crash out with no deal, which effectively ends the process of getting Brexit through parliament.

That I think would be close to or would be the majority, those who want a no deal Brexit either because it's their chosen preference or because they feel it's the best option available now are in the minority and would not be able to reject an extension which by default would have us leave in a no deal situation without considerable support elsewhere. I personally can't see them getting it.

Whilst anything can happen, I'm predicting by the end of March we'll have an extension of article 50. Unfortunately this is not over.


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## Hangman (Feb 3, 2017)

BRITLAND said:


> An interesting deal that Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn should consider supporting:


But the country voted out. Its been decided. :shrug


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## DOPA (Jul 13, 2012)

100% correct.


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## CJ (Jun 28, 2011)

Rolo Tomassi said:


> @Draykorinee @BRITLAND @CJ @DesolationRow
> 
> May losing yet again on her deal was an incredibly predictable outcome.


She's a complete embarrassment.

My preferred solution at this point, would be to leave without a deal, but the likelihood of that actually happening is next to zero. Unfortunately Brexit was always in danger with a remainer at the helm. Guess will see it how it goes.


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## DOPA (Jul 13, 2012)

CJ said:


> She's a complete embarrassment.
> 
> My preferred solution at this point, would be to leave without a deal, but the likelihood of that actually happening is next to zero. Unfortunately Brexit was always in danger with a remainer at the helm. Guess will see it how it goes.


Watch the video I just linked with Daniel Hannan, his assessment of the situation and how we move forward is spot on.


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## Laughable Chimp (Sep 1, 2016)

Oh shit this is still going on? lol.


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## Sensei Utero (May 1, 2016)

This whole situation :lmao.


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## Draykorinee (Aug 4, 2015)

Brexit would never have been voted for if it was no deal, everyone knows that, but they're more than happy to suggest we go for no deal just because we voted out.

This is why plebians like me shouldn't be deciding such monumental things as this.

Get the fuck out with your no deal.


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## Ninja Hedgehog (Mar 22, 2018)

Draykorinee said:


> Brexit would never have been voted for if it was no deal, everyone knows that, but they're more than happy to suggest we go for no deal just because we voted out.
> 
> This is why plebians like me shouldn't be deciding such monumental things as this.
> 
> Get the fuck out with your no deal.


The original referendum should have been:

Leave the EU (with a deal)

OR

Stay in the EU

Cameron was so sure that the vote was going to end up as a remain win that he didn't even consider it. No surprise that he quit almost immediately. What a cock


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## Strike Force (Sep 14, 2015)

Give any sort of power to the unwashed masses, and this is what you get.

People love to hate on politicians and the governmental system, but whenever you hand the people the power of the referendum, things almost always go off the rails. I'm looking at you, California.


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## Nothing Finer (Apr 12, 2017)

Anyone who advocates any kind of Brexit on the basis that it's following the will of the people should be willing to put that Brexit to the people to confirm it's what they want. The great thing is that if you put that version of Brexit to the people and they vote for it it will pass through Parliament easily.

The only reason to fear this is if you think your version of Brexit isn't the will of the people.


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## UniversalGleam (Jan 30, 2017)

Nothing Finer said:


> Anyone who advocates any kind of Brexit on the basis that it's following the will of the people should be willing to put that Brexit to the people to confirm it's what they want. The great thing is that if you put that version of Brexit to the people and they vote for it it will pass through Parliament easily.
> 
> The only reason to fear this is if you think your version of Brexit isn't the will of the people.


thing is though, if we have a second referendum and remain wins.....do we have another for best of 3? or do we just stay because "the people have spoken" despite them already speaking to leave once before.

overall may has fucked this right up.


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## Nothing Finer (Apr 12, 2017)

UniversalGleam said:


> thing is though, if we have a second referendum and remain wins.....do we have another for best of 3? or do we just stay because "the people have spoken" despite them already speaking to leave once before.
> 
> overall may has fucked this right up.


If it's close, yes. Brexit is way too important an issue to be decided on a 1.9% majority, especially when the electorate has changed by a factor of about 3 million between the vote and the implementation. 

There needs to be a national consensus and, as hard as it is for Brexit supporters to accept, a small majority on an extremely vague proposal 3 years ago just does not meet the standard for such an important decision.


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## Draykorinee (Aug 4, 2015)

UniversalGleam said:


> thing is though, if we have a second referendum and remain wins.....do we have another for best of 3? or do we just stay because "the people have spoken" despite them already speaking to leave once before.
> 
> overall may has fucked this right up.


I have never wanted a second referendum, even though I voted remain all I wanted was for the Brexit deal to be a good one and get out. Its so fucked up now that Brexit wouldn't have a chance in a peoples referendum. I don't see any other way now. 

This should have been avoided but May is an incompetent tool.


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## FSL (Mar 4, 2014)

After TM's deal and No Deal have been rejected by the MP's I wonder if the Brexiteers will still blame the EU for trying to trap the UK inside the EU? 
:renee3

Next time you put a decision like this in people's hand at least try to be decent enough to study the options and tell the masses the truth. 

Incredible what the leave campaign was able to pull off with a red bus and a deceiving slogan.

I feel sorry for all the small business owner in the UK as they don't know what the hell to do and what to prepare for when there are only 15 days left. fpalmfpalmfpalm


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## red dead2 (Dec 15, 2017)

I think a 2nd referendum should be held only if Parliament agrees that it's a final vote on the issue (Article 50) and that there will not be another one. 

I think it is fair to have 4 options:

Remain
Leave - no deal
Norway Plus - customs union/single market
May's deal

Brexit is too much of a nuanced issue for it to be decided on 2 options alone.


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## red dead2 (Dec 15, 2017)

UniversalGleam said:


> thing is though, if we have a second referendum and remain wins.....do we have another for best of 3? or do we just stay because "the people have spoken" despite them already speaking to leave once before.
> 
> overall may has fucked this right up.


Well there was a 1st referendum in the 1970s were the people massively voted to join the common market.

So considering that the results of the referendum essentially cancels out the one from the 1970s with a no deal brexit I think it is fair to have another peoples vote however only if parliament agrees that that there won't be another one unless article 50 is withdrawn.


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## InexorableJourney (Sep 10, 2016)

There are always bilateral trade deals with EU nations, only allowed once the UK leaves.

Of course the first EU nation that can strike a trade deal with the UK, would get virtually all of Europe's current trade as exports.

This makes a bilateral trade deal the single biggest objective for every EU nation post Brexit, knowing that the best deal offered to the UK will get 'all' the spoils.


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## Nothing Finer (Apr 12, 2017)

InexorableJourney said:


> There are always bilateral trade deals with EU nations, only allowed once the UK leaves.
> 
> Of course the first EU nation that can strike a trade deal with the UK, would get virtually all of Europe's current trade as exports.
> 
> This makes a bilateral trade deal the single biggest objective for every EU nation post Brexit, knowing that the best deal offered to the UK will get 'all' the spoils.


A good plan with two major flaws.

The first is that EU member states can't strike bilateral trade deals. This is one of the main reasons that the UK is leaving. If EU member states could strike bilateral trade deals and then get all the trade it would totally destroy the whole system.

The second is that EU member states can't strike bilateral trade deals. I know technically that's the same problem, but it's such a big one that it's worth mentioning twice.


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## Ninja Hedgehog (Mar 22, 2018)

InexorableJourney said:


> There are always bilateral trade deals with EU nations, only allowed once the UK leaves.
> 
> Of course the first EU nation that can strike a trade deal with the UK, would get virtually all of Europe's current trade as exports.
> 
> This makes a bilateral trade deal the single biggest objective for every EU nation post Brexit, knowing that the best deal offered to the UK will get 'all' the spoils.


Comments like this just prove why it was a bad idea to give such a big decision to the public!

People have voted on something they have no idea about. I'm not singling you out specifically here, but it does show how little info people really had, and continue to have, on the situation.



Nothing Finer said:


> A good plan with two major flaws.
> 
> The first is that EU member states can't strike bilateral trade deals. This is one of the main reasons that the UK is leaving. If EU member states could strike bilateral trade deals and then get all the trade it would totally destroy the whole system.
> 
> The second is that EU member states can't strike bilateral trade deals. I know technically that's the same problem, but it's such a big one that it's worth mentioning twice.


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## michael_3165 (Apr 16, 2016)

Cameron was the stupidest person in the universe for the decision to give the public a vote on this. He and his minions completely misunderstood the mood of the people, as though austerity, increased crime, decreased wages and problems with employment was a good starting position for people to vote to stay. The whole thing smacks of an out of touch parliament that doesn't 'get' what they have done to the people in the UK. Give people the chance they will bite the 'elites' in the arse, not realising they are fucking themselves just as much. But then these people don't see themselves having anything to lose. When you are on benefits, can't get a job and have no prospects because manufacturing is in the toilet you can vote to make things worse for everyone else. 


In terms of where they can go from here. I don't buy the whole 'trust in government will fall if we have another referendum' because NOBODY trusts them now anyway. Democracy doesn't mean one and done, its a changing viewpoint that requires different votes. That is why we have 5 yearly elections. I would put it back to the people... May's deal or stay. We can't leave without a deal, it would be hideous and everyone seems to think a good idea. Get our sovereignty back? People forget WTO set their own rules and we have to abide by them. Hardly getting back control is it? 


Democracy is a crock of shit. It is essentially mob rule. When 17m out of 60m+ can take us off a cliff edge that isn't democracy, that's lunacy. I have no alternative but we live in this false belief that our way of doing things is superior to all others. Frankly I wouldn't trust the average person to make me a sandwich let alone make a decision that will affect us for decades.


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## Draykorinee (Aug 4, 2015)

michael_3165 said:


> Cameron was the stupidest person in the universe for the decision to give the public a vote on this. He and his minions completely misunderstood the mood of the people, as though austerity, increased crime, decreased wages and problems with employment was a good starting position for people to vote to stay. The whole thing smacks of an out of touch parliament that doesn't 'get' what they have done to the people in the UK. Give people the chance they will bite the 'elites' in the arse, not realising they are fucking themselves just as much. But then these people don't see themselves having anything to lose. When you are on benefits, can't get a job and have no prospects because manufacturing is in the toilet you can vote to make things worse for everyone else.
> 
> 
> In terms of where they can go from here. I don't buy the whole 'trust in government will fall if we have another referendum' because NOBODY trusts them now anyway. Democracy doesn't mean one and done, its a changing viewpoint that requires different votes. That is why we have 5 yearly elections. I would put it back to the people... May's deal or stay. We can't leave without a deal, it would be hideous and everyone seems to think a good idea. Get our sovereignty back? People forget WTO set their own rules and we have to abide by them. Hardly getting back control is it?
> ...


:bjpenn

The worst thing was making it a Yes/No vote, there is no way in hell a no deal would have even come close to being voted through by the public, so all these 'we voted leave so we must leave' are just deceptive little cunts.

All these old fuckers voting out are just sad little 'Britain was great once' assholes.


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## DOPA (Jul 13, 2012)

Nothing Finer said:


> *Anyone who advocates any kind of Brexit on the basis that it's following the will of the people should be willing to put that Brexit to the people to confirm it's what they want.* The great thing is that if you put that version of Brexit to the people and they vote for it it will pass through Parliament easily.
> 
> The only reason to fear this is if you think your version of Brexit isn't the will of the people.


Democracy only works if Parliament implements the changes in which the public voted on in a referendum type situation. This is the point 2nd referendum remainers seem to constantly ignore. The idea that another referendum is more democracy or following the will of the people is absurd because the original vote has not even been implemented. So a 2nd referendum renders the 1st pointless, we would have wasted 2 years for absolute nought. We might as well have never had the referendum to begin with if the idea is that it can be overturned at any given moment without even going through the process of implementing the decision.

Let me give you an example of if the result was the opposite of what transpired, in some alternate universe if you will. Let's say Remain won by the same margin and you had Nigel Farage and other Euro-Sceptics saying "well the result was close and it wasn't representative of all the population because only x% voted and it was only won by 1-2%, so we should have another referendum to confirm that the people who voted stay, actually do want to stay!"

Would the same people calling for a 2nd referendum be okay with that? Of course they wouldn't. So the argument is sheer nonsense. This is for the more ardent Remainers about getting the outcome *they* want. Nothing more, nothing less.

By the way Farage did hint at this when the *false* BBC aggregate polls showed Leave was down on average by 5 points. And he was wrong to argue so.

Yes, we aren't a direct democracy like Switzerland for example but that was the route that was taken on the question of EU membership. Had we voted to stay in 2016, then that is also the route we would have to take. I'll repeat exactly what I said in response to the 2016 referendum had Remain won:

"I would have to accept that I lost the argument".

Certain remainers, not all but some, have not done so.



Nothing Finer said:


> If it's close, yes. Brexit is way too important an issue to be decided on a 1.9% majority, especially when the electorate has changed by a factor of about 3 million between the vote and the implementation.


But this wouldn't happen would it? You know it wouldn't.

Say if we did have a 2nd referendum and Remain won by around the same margin as Leave, do you really think those people would be making the same arguments of "Oh, Remain only won by 1-2% of the vote, it doesn't represent a convincing majority! We need another re-run!"

Of course they wouldn't, they'd argue people have changed their minds and now we need to stay in the EU, even if it means adopting the Lisbon treaty in full, no opt out of certain provisions we don't like, joining the Euro etc. which I could very easily see the EU putting forward as the conditions to staying as they would be in the drivers seat. 

Hell they already are now with how May has handled the negotiations, along with now at least symbolically no deal being taken off the table which was the last bargaining tool we had left to even try to get a better deal. The EU had almost 0 reason to compromise when May gave them nearly all the concessions they could have ever wanted at the beginning, now effectively they have 0 reason after yesterday's vote. 

The people asking for a 2nd referendum are only doing so because they can't accept the result in 2016. They want to remain in the EU at all costs, this isn't about having a decisive result so people know what they want. It's about thwarting Brexit at all costs. You know it and I know it, even if this is how you personally yourself would handle it.



red dead2 said:


> I think a 2nd referendum should be held only if Parliament agrees that it's a final vote on the issue (Article 50) and that there will not be another one.
> 
> *I think it is fair to have 4 options:
> 
> ...


Many of the same remainers who rejected May's deal would also reject the Norway option. This type of vote and the way it's constructed would only serve to try and split the leave vote, people aren't stupid, they would see right through it. 

It's the same as the people who argue the 2nd referendum vote should be between May's deal or Remaining.....despite the fact that it's been rejected twice now. They *know* Brexiteers on the whole hate May's deal, I'm not talking about the MP's, I'm talking about the general public who voted for Brexit.

-----------------------

Still sticking with my original prediction for an extension, which may be lead to a push for a 2nd referendum which is what many here want anyway. So really some of you should be happier than you appear.

The only way I see this not being the outcome is if either the EU rejects the extension which I'm 50/50 on or if a member state veto's the idea of an extension. In either situation, we leave without a deal. The entire thing is a complete mess.


----------



## Jonhern (Oct 19, 2017)

I've been having a chuckle watching this from across the pond. I also must say having watched a few of the votes and debates happening live, Parliament is much more entertaining than the House or Senate over here. 

I hope one EU country just says fuck it and votes not to extend, because it really is a pointless extension, nothing will get accomplished and would just be delaying the inevitable, a no deal brexit. The vote yesterday was completely meaningless because a no deal brexit is still going to happen regardless of parliament voting against no deal. Only way to take it off the table is to revoke article 50, which I doubt they would have the votes to pass. 

Labors proposal is dead too, because being part of the single market means not having control over immigration, that was the sticking point for so many of the public and one reason why the Irish backstop is so toxic that it killed May's deal. Not to mention, would the EU even accept Labors deal? From what I have read over the last couple of years is no, they don't want another half in half out member, and they wont allow a member state into the single market without taking the whole of it, ie open boarders. 

Plus the EU's insistence they wont negotiate May's deal further, so why give an extension, what will it do? absolutely nothing, they should just deny it, get it over with and force Britain to get their shit together. They have three options, take May's deal, leave with no deal, or revoke article 50 and essentially admit they wasted two years on this farce. They don't need extra time, just make up your fucking mind.


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## BRITLAND (Jun 17, 2012)

I found this funny and scary, basically your typical Question Time boomer sayng that we survived two world wars and because of that we can survive no deal brexit!
https://twitter.com/jamesmelville/status/1063212015504818178?lang=en-gb



red dead2 said:


> I think a 2nd referendum should be held only if Parliament agrees that it's a final vote on the issue (Article 50) and that there will not be another one.
> 
> I think it is fair to have 4 options:
> 
> ...


There should be a hard remain option that involves remaining in the EU but also joining the Eurozone, Schengen and all further integration with the EU, I'd love that as an option just to see the reactions of the ERG at such a possible outcome! :ha


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## UniversalGleam (Jan 30, 2017)

Draykorinee said:


> :bjpenn
> All these old fuckers voting out are just sad little 'Britain was great once' assholes.


sorry but this is just narrow minded stereotyping, you could equally argue that an 18 year old knows fuck all about anything. Id rather listen to an old person that has experience over an entitled brat that pretends to know everything if we are going to generalise.

writing them off just because they are "old" is just rediculous imo, holding a different opinion doesnt make them "sad assholes". There is stupid people and intelligent people at all ages.

partially the reason why putting the vote to people that possibly dont even understand what is happening as a bad call.


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## CJ (Jun 28, 2011)

Let's keep this civil.


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## Draykorinee (Aug 4, 2015)

UniversalGleam said:


> writing them off just because they are "old" is just rediculous imo, holding a different opinion doesnt make them "sad assholes". There is stupid people and intelligent people at all ages.


I didn't write them off because they're old I'm writing them off for voting based on the 'Britain was great once' nostalgia bullshit. What are you on about?

Stop getting upset over hyperbole, my grandparents all voted remain.



Rolo Tomassi said:


> [
> Democracy only works if Parliament implements the changes in which the public voted on in a referendum type situation.


Completely false when the vote was a binary yes/no and the implementing is not a binary yes/no thing.

You know full well no one would vote for a bad deal, a tiny minority would vote for no deal so why pretend that it's democratic to potentially push these through? 

So for you it's more democratic to force through a bad deal just to say you followed a referendum than to have a proper referendum. I don't get it.



> The people asking for a 2nd referendum are only doing so because they can't accept the result in 2016. They want to remain in the EU at all costs, this isn't about having a decisive result so people know what they want. It's about thwarting Brexit at all costs. You know it and I know it, even if this is how you personally yourself would handle it.


Nonsense again. It's not about thwarting Brexit, it's about having all the facts after two years and realising its all shit. Have I ever advocated for a second referendum? No, but now is the only time I would, because I know and you know Brexit would most likely lose because they can't do it right.
You seem to be suggesting a bad Brexit is better than no Brexit, I expected better.


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## Strike Force (Sep 14, 2015)

Draykorinee said:


> Completely false when the vote was a binary yes/no and the implementing is not a binary yes/no thing.


This is true. Implementation of a potential UK exit is complicated and nuanced, whereas the people were given the referendum equivalent of "Do you like me? YES or NO?" with two giant check boxes.

Besides, so many citizens have subsequently admitted that they didn't even understand what they were voting for that we can comfortably conclude that (A) referenda like this are generally a horrible idea in practice and (B) Brexit might not necessarily be representative of the will of the people, despite how the initial vote played out.


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## UniversalGleam (Jan 30, 2017)

Draykorinee said:


> I didn't write them off because they're old I'm writing them off for voting based on the 'Britain was great once' nostalgia bullshit. What are you on about?
> 
> Stop getting upset over hyperbole, my grandparents all voted remain


*All these old fuckers voting out are just sad little 'Britain was great once' assholes.* 

if you dont mean "*ALL* these old fuckers voting out are *JUST* sad "britain was great once assholes" then you need to write your point better at the end of the day. "all" and "just" is putting everyone in one group, with the group being "old fuckers" and "britain was great once assholes".

you are the only one getting upset and overly defensive here mate. If Im mistaken then so be it but thats what you said. Im just disagreeing with that statement as its written.


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## Draykorinee (Aug 4, 2015)

UniversalGleam said:


> *All these old fuckers voting out are just sad little 'Britain was great once' assholes.*
> 
> if you dont mean "ALL these old fuckers voting out are JUST sad" then you need to write your point better.
> 
> you are the only one getting upset and overly defensive here. Im just pointing out that I dont agree with you.


My point was fine, I've faced too many older leave voters who think we're suddenly going to go back to the good old days, forgetting that those good old days were built on empire building and treading all over brown people and supposedly its the EU's fault we're a bit shit now.

I'm getting defensive because you incorrectly accused me of ageism.



Strike Force said:


> This is true. Implementation of a potential UK exit is complicated and nuanced, whereas the people were given the referendum equivalent of "Do you like me? YES or NO?" with two giant check boxes.


I asked my kids if they wanted to go out some where, they said yes. Told them to go out to the park. It then pissed it down with rain. 
'But its raining we'll get wet' Sorry kids, you voted to go out thats democracy for you. Out means out.



> MPs have voted by 412 to 202 for Prime Minister Theresa May to ask the EU for a delay to Brexit.
> 
> It means the UK may not now leave on 29 March as previously planned.


As expected, we now have an extension. So we can go back to the EU to not get a better deal. 3 more months of this utter wank. If in 1 month she hasn't got a better deal its time for a second referendum. 1 more month.


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## Jonhern (Oct 19, 2017)

Draykorinee said:


> As expected, we now have an extension. So we can go back to the EU to not get a better deal. 3 more months of this utter wank. If in 1 month she hasn't got a better deal its time for a second referendum. 1 more month.


Nope, you dont, the EU could still say no, only one member state has to veto it for that to happen. May has to give a good reason to extend, and they don't have one right now since they voted down the second vote. EU should just say no and get it over with, pull off the band-aide.


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## Draykorinee (Aug 4, 2015)

Jonhern said:


> Draykorinee said:
> 
> 
> > As expected, we now have an extension. So we can go back to the EU to not get a better deal. 3 more months of this utter wank. If in 1 month she hasn't got a better deal its time for a second referendum. 1 more month.
> ...


True, but i don't think the EU will play that hardball, they still want a relationship with us. I foresee them giving us time even though we don't deserve it.

Another thing to bear in mind is the upcoming eu electrons at the end of May, they won't let us go over that.


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## FSL (Mar 4, 2014)

What happened this week in parliament was good for exposing several lies of the leave campaign, and some slogans that have been spread by hard brexiteers. As there are loads of them I'm picking my favourites:

"They need us more than we need them". Untrue as the opposite is the reality. You don't see EU negotiators coming to the UK begging for further negotiations or requesting extensions.

"The EU wants to trap us in". False as the EU cannot do this even if they wanted. All that the UK had to do was to approve the No deal exit but it didn't.

"The EU has a tradition of budging on the last minute". False as the EU is not changing anything in the wd agreement. 

"We are leaving on the 29th of March and we gonna make a success out of Brexit". Not happening and so far Brexit has been the most botched political project of the past decades.

"The EU is going to collapse as we leave". Is looking quite the contrary. The HOC looks like a madhouse, the population is more divided than ever, the business owners are clueless regarding of what to do, and the international view of the UK is appalling, being considered a circus in the eyes of many.

So there you go. 14 days left for the supposed day of regaining our sovereignty and taking back control and what do you have?

A battered PM is going to beg the EU for more time, looking weaker than never, without a solid reason for doing so whilst the country will have to endure more months of this freak soap opera. 

Her party is divided into 3 factions now: Her loyal, the rebels in the independent group and the ERG.

Even she losing her voice this week was poetic.


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## Twilight Sky (Feb 19, 2019)

When the deal was turned down the second time, and she assured everyone that she wasn't going to try to drag things on, I knew Brexit was d00med. I lost count how many times it was voted down, but x more times later and now Brexit has been postponed lol. Im calling it now, she's gonna motion for the revocation of Article 50, aka cancelling Brexit.


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## red dead2 (Dec 15, 2017)

Rolo Tomassi said:


> Many of the same remainers who rejected May's deal would also reject the Norway option. *This type of vote and the way it's constructed would only serve to try and split the leave vote,* people aren't stupid, they would see right through it.
> 
> It's the same as the people who argue the 2nd referendum vote should be between May's deal or Remaining.....despite the fact that it's been rejected twice now. They *know* Brexiteers on the whole hate May's deal, I'm not talking about the MP's, I'm talking about the general public who voted for Brexit.


No it doesn't

The political climate has changed massively since 2016. There are people who voted Remain that have become leavers and there are people who voted leave who have now become remainers. You are acting as though the democratic will of the people is like supporting a football team for the rest of your life - well I hate to break this to you but it's not,

We had two advisory referendums to join the EU. One in 1975 (yes I know the EU back then was not the political super-union that is now today) and the other one to leave in 2016. They are not legally binding and if you speak to the General Public you will hear many different ideas on the UK's future relationship the EU which range from a Norwegian type deal, to remaining out right, to leaving on WTO terms, to something similar to May's deal.

If Parliament cannot decide what Brexit is then it is best to go for another advisory referendum with 4 options. It does not split the vote because the idea of brexit amongst the British public is more nuanced then a simple in and out. It's what you people who follow Leave and Remain like football teams do not understand.

I personally would not mind seeing us leave the EU (even if I did vote the other way during the referendum) but under May's deal or WTO terms - hell no.



Twilight Sky said:


> When the deal was turned down the second time, and she assured everyone that she wasn't going to try to drag things on, I knew Brexit was d00med. I lost count how many times it was voted down, but x more times later and now Brexit has been postponed lol. Im calling it now, *she's gonna motion for the revocation of Article 50,* aka cancelling Brexit.


No she won't

But I do see a general election in May becoming a possibility. I just sure hope Labour gain a majority. Yes Labour is in a shit place as well but we need a serious alternative to this Tory clusterfuck that is being forced down the general public's and parliaments throats.

This is how I see things transpiring:

Article 50 3 months extension
GE in May 
Article 50 12 month extension called in June under lab led government
(lab led negotiations with EU focused on reform, norway plus deal and possible 2nd referendum in late 2019 or early 2020)


btw lol at Farage and that Polish dude in the conservative party trying to lobby foreign goverments to block an Article 50 extension in the EU. And these right wingers have the nerve to call other people traitors?


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## Art Vandaley (Jan 9, 2006)

I love that this thread is 9 months old yet the title is still so relevant it could have been made yesterday.


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## FSL (Mar 4, 2014)

Alkomesh2 said:


> I love that this thread is 9 months old yet the title is still so relevant it could have been made yesterday.


And it's going to stay relevant for many more believe that!


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## Nothing Finer (Apr 12, 2017)

Draykorinee said:


> True, but i don't think the EU will play that hardball, they still want a relationship with us. I foresee them giving us time even though we don't deserve it.
> 
> Another thing to bear in mind is the upcoming eu electrons at the end of May, they won't let us go over that.


Unfortunately the EU are quite happy for the UK to leave with May's shit deal, and they know that if Parliament knows the choice is between leaving the deal and leaving with no deal leaving with the deal will win by a wide margin

Labour have been utterly gutless in not advocating a referendum properly. If they has it may be a reality now.


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## Green Light (Sep 17, 2011)

:done


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## FSL (Mar 4, 2014)

I still don't understand all this heat on May's deal. May's deal is a hard Brexit with a smooth transition period that sounds perfectly reasonable. 

-May's deal delivers on most of Brexiteers demands, as gets the UK out of the customs union and the single market enabling the UK to set out new deals without giving the EU any justification.
-It also end free movement of people and introduces an immigration system based on skills. 

And then you have the infamous backstop. What in the world do you want instead of a backstop? 

No Deal will grant a hard border between the Irelands, which is worse than May's deal.

The reality is that the UK thinks that the EU will let an open border between one of its members with a country that is leaving the block, enabling all kind of smugling along the border as after the Uk leaves it will not abide by EU regulations anymore. So an american hormone injected chicken can cross the Irelands unchecked. Yeah right!
So the UK is literaly saying let us leave and sod Republic of Ireland. Not gonna happen.

And the backstop will be temporary. Those saying that it would trap the UK inside the customs union forever is admiting that the EU will use this in bad faith. Believe that the EU won't want to trap a country in the block against its will, but time is needed to prepare things.

The problem with Brexiteers in this country is their childish reaction towards Brexit. It's like children waiting for Xmas to open the presents and pulling a tantrum everytime the parents say they won't get exactly that Barbie doll they saw on tv.


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## Draykorinee (Aug 4, 2015)

> BREAKING: Our negotiators have just initialled a trade agreement with Iceland & Norway for the European Economic Area. This is the 2nd biggest agreement we're rolling over and trade with EEA is worth nearly £30bn. This is on top of the agreement we’ve signed with Liechtenstein. - Liam fox


Looks like things are on the up, we've got trade agreements with countries we already had agreements with, on top of the one with a country with a population of 40,000 people.

Easiest deal in history.


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## Jam (Nov 6, 2015)

They're forever delaying something they can't even conjure up a plan for, maybe have plans in place BEFORE starting shit, rather than bailing & giving the job to not only a remainer, but a cabbage too


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## Twilight Sky (Feb 19, 2019)

Brexit wasn't May's idea though. The PM before it did this. This problem got dumped on her XD. I feel like she's attempting to drag this on long enough where it's not gonna be her problem anymore either.


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## Draykorinee (Aug 4, 2015)

Twilight Sky said:


> Brexit wasn't May's idea though. The PM before it did this. This problem got dumped on her XD. I feel like she's attempting to drag this on long enough where it's not gonna be her problem anymore either.


It wasn't his idea either, the vote was but he was staunchly remain. He did the right thing and fucked off because a remainer should never have been in charge of the process.

May deserves everything she gets, she put her own desire to be PM above the needs of the country and she has been an utter disaster, I would put her as the most incompetent PM we've had in living memory. 

Not the objective worst PM, that would be Thatcher/Blair but they both did what they set out to do, one wanted to fuck over the poor and sell everything off and the other wanted to cosy up to America to be a world player again and give the establishment power and wealth.

I disagree that the problem got dumped on her, she saw the problem and chose to tackle it.


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## Jonhern (Oct 19, 2017)

FSL said:


> I still don't understand all this heat on May's deal. May's deal is a hard Brexit with a smooth transition period that sounds perfectly reasonable.
> 
> -May's deal delivers on most of Brexiteers demands, as gets the UK out of the customs union and the single market enabling the UK to set out new deals without giving the EU any justification.
> -*It also end free movement of people and introduces an immigration system based on skills. *
> ...


That's the crux and why the backstop is so toxic, the reason they don't want May's deal is that in order to end the free movement of people and have no hard border in Ireland, UK would have to stay in the EU single market in just NI and create a hard border within their own country, ie between NI and UK. You can't have both an open border in NI and not be part of the single market meaning free movement of people. It's an unwinnable situation, you have to give up one of those, it just won't work with both. 

The EU is not going to allow UK to remain in the single market to keep no hard border in Ireland without the free movement of people, it goes against their whole ethos, and remember it would take a unanimous EU vote to allow UK an exception from that, it's not going to happen. And UK can't keep an open border in Ireland if they want to stop the free movement of people without having customs checkpoints between NI and the rest of the UK. I'm in the US and I myself couldn't image a situation where I would have to show my passport to cross State lines, the UK people won't accept this kind of scenario. So to say May's deal delivers a hard brexit is incorrect, it leaves a lot of stuff up in the air, with Irish border being the biggest with no real idea on how to solve it to please all sides. It's not so much that the EU will trap the Uk, it's more that if you want an open border there's really no way to do it without being in the single market. 

Here is a good explainer on the irish backstop:
https://www.vox.com/world/2019/2/18/18204269/brexit-irish-border-backstop-explained


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## A-C-P (Jan 5, 2010)

:mjeng


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## V. Skybox (Jun 24, 2014)

Looks like May's on even more borrowed time than she was before.



> Theresa May was under pressure to name a date for her departure last night after cabinet support drained away and the DUP made clear its lack of faith in her.
> 
> Senior figures in No 10 confirmed that discussions on a timetable for the prime minister to stand down were under way. A Downing Street source said that even her closest allies believed it was inevitable she would have to resign. “It’s obvious that this is where things are headed,” they said.


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## FSL (Mar 4, 2014)

We don't have a functioning parliament and the PM is a lame duck.

And they insist Brexit must still be delivered. fpalm :surprise:


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## Sensei Utero (May 1, 2016)

:lmao


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## Greatsthegreats (Apr 15, 2015)




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## Draykorinee (Aug 4, 2015)

FSL said:


> We don't have a functioning parliament and the PM is a lame duck.
> 
> And they insist Brexit must still be delivered. <img src="http://i.imgur.com/FA2CI9v.gif" border="0" alt="" title="fpalm" class="inlineimg" /> <img src="https://www.wrestlingforum.com/images/WrestlingForum_2014RED/smilies/tango_face_surprise.png" border="0" alt="" title="EEK! Surprise!" class="inlineimg" />


Leave means leave, especially when you're offered a binary yes/no to a complex question.



Greatsthegreats said:


>


If I thought getting out of the EU would change things I'd say go for it, but were even worse, having to register to watch porn gtfo.

Added:

https://twitter.com/PaddySisyphus/status/1110635861841006594 I cant figure out embedding tweets.


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## FSL (Mar 4, 2014)

Can all Brexiteers swallow their pride now and edit all your posts "We are leaving on the 29th of March, end of" to "We are leaving on the... well who knows"

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL


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## UniversalGleam (Jan 30, 2017)

theresa may: my brexit plan doesn't seem to be working....


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## Draykorinee (Aug 4, 2015)

Leave means leave guys, except we can't decide on anything.


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## Piers (Sep 1, 2015)

Just got back from a school trip in Scotland. This shit is all over the news, papers and streets, it's crazy.


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## 2 Ton 21 (Dec 28, 2011)

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-47752017



> *MPs reject May's EU withdrawal agreement*
> 
> Media captionThe result is announced as MPs vote by 286 to 344 to reject the government’s withdrawal agreement
> 
> ...


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## Banez (Dec 18, 2012)




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## UniversalGleam (Jan 30, 2017)

Id rather eat my own shit than vote for any of these parties should there be a general election.

corbyn can certainly fuck right off, the self serving dickhead.

I will be massively surprised if brexit ever happens.


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## FSL (Mar 4, 2014)

I find this very weird. They must know something that we don't, I mean only a blind man can't see Brexit is being sabotaged big time.
They know Brexit will collapse this country especially a No Deal but no one has the guts now to come forward and tell the masses the truth. 
And the problem is that Brexit is not an ideology anymore, is worse than that, is like religion. And when it comes down to religion people react like fanatics they don't want to listen. It's like someone coming to a church on a Sunday and claim Jesus doesn't exist.
When I see people holding banners like "No Deal? No Problem!" I feel really concerned.
This is all a big sad mess fpalm fpalm


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## Tag89 (Jul 27, 2014)

every morning i wake up to a news story on my phone along the lines of 'theresa may loses/suffers defeat/is rejected' etc

it's gotten to the point of parody tbf


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## DesoloutionRow (May 18, 2014)

FSL said:


> I find this very weird. They must know something that we don't, I mean only a blind man can't see Brexit is being sabotaged big time.
> They know Brexit will collapse this country especially a No Deal but no one has the guts now to come forward and tell the masses the truth.
> And the problem is that Brexit is not an ideology anymore, is worse than that, is like religion. And when it comes down to religion people react like fanatics they don't want to listen. It's like someone coming to a church on a Sunday and claim Jesus doesn't exist.
> When I see people holding banners like "No Deal? No Problem!" I feel really concerned.
> This is all a big sad mess fpalm fpalm


I quite literally think the exact opposite of you. I think they are hiding how they never wanted a Brexit and are trying to weasel their way around the vote results. Being in the EU is like being in a cult because once you get in, no matter how bad it gets (Greece), you can never leave. The power is consolidated and they don't want to relinquish it.


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## FSL (Mar 4, 2014)

Headlouner said:


> I quite literally think the exact opposite of you. I think they are hiding how they n*ever wanted a Brexit and are trying to weasel their way around the vote results. Being in the EU is like being in a cult because once you get in, no matter how bad it gets (Greece), you can never leave.* The power is consolidated and they don't want to relinquish it.


Hardly true. If it were a cult you wouldn't even be allowed to trigger an article 50. Yesterday could have been the last day of the UK in the EU and it didn't happen not because of the EU but because of the UK not being competent enough to deliver it. 

And to be honest looks like the EU is fed up with us. As they have been saying the Uk knows what it doesn't want but won't let us know what it wants. 

The problem was all these slogans like "they need us more than we need them", "the EU has a tradition of budging in the last minute", "Brexit will easily be delivered, blah blah" were proven not to be true hence the mess we are in.


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## DesoloutionRow (May 18, 2014)

FSL said:


> Hardly true. If it were a cult you wouldn't even be allowed to trigger an article 50. Yesterday could have been the last day of the UK in the EU and it didn't happen not because of the EU but because of the UK not being competent enough to deliver it.
> 
> And to be honest looks like the EU is fed up with us. As they have been saying the Uk knows what it doesn't want but won't let us know what it wants.
> 
> The problem was all these slogans like "they need us more than we need them", "the EU has a tradition of budging in the last minute", "Brexit will easily be delivered, blah blah" were proven not to be true hence the mess we are in.


You only speak of the EU in a positive light. You neglect to mention its failures and its failure states. It's almost as if you have some sort of agenda. 

Italy is drowning in debt.

Greece is in shambles and not allowed to default.

France has a peasant uprising that is being suppressed by Western media.

Government is not there to help. It is there to consolidate power and when you figure this out, you will understand why the idea of signing away your sovereignty is a bad one. 99.99% of the time when the government says that they are enforcing a temporary measure wherein your rights and/or money will be taken, they don't actually rescind and return your rights and/or money permanently. Also, good luck with your Article 11 and Article 13. You will see more of your freedoms revoked in due time.


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## UniversalGleam (Jan 30, 2017)

I was listening to piers morgan the other day and whilst I dont like him much at all, he made a good point, people laid on the negatives with refusing to join the euro and how it would be a disaster for the UK if we didnt do it and yet it was probably the best thing the UK has done in recent times.

people dont know how good or bad leaving europe will be until we actually do it at the end of the day. anyone who pretends to "know" what will happen is talking utter shit. No-one can predict the future.

if europe collapsed in 10 years time, brexit would suddenly become "well thank fuck for that". 

there is negatives and postives to both aspects but the hard remainers or the hard leavers wont admit that. Its much like everything else going on right now, no-one wants to compromise, its all "you're an idiot and i'm smart".


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## Death Rider (May 18, 2011)

UniversalGleam said:


> I was listening to piers morgan the other day and whilst I dont like him much at all, he made a good point, people laid on the negatives with refusing to join the euro and how it would be a disaster for the UK if we didnt do it and yet it was probably the best thing the UK has done in recent times.
> 
> people dont know how good or bad leaving europe will be until we actually do it at the end of the day. anyone who pretends to "know" what will happen is talking utter shit. No-one can predict the future.
> 
> ...


Bingo. I voted remain but the EU is far from perfect. People acting like it is some perfect organisation is hilarious. It is just the fact our government are incompetent and could not run a piss up in brewery


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## FSL (Mar 4, 2014)

Headlouner said:


> You only speak of the EU in a positive light. You neglect to mention its failures and its failure states. It's almost as if you have some sort of agenda.
> 
> Italy is drowning in debt.
> 
> ...


I'm just a citizen, another taxpayer, just another brick in the wall what agenda could I possibly have?

I agree the EU is not perfect, not at all. It has its faults and surely that's a lot we don't control. 

But I don't think is the evil that brought low living standards in this country. Before joining the EU the UK was struggling financially, and today is only the 5th biggest economy in the world. The sterling is one of the strongest currencies in the market. Yes, we achieved this inside the EU. 

And by all means, I think the UK could excel outside the EU. But for heaven's sake, we needed to be well prepared. 

A solid parliament, with a solid PM, and a good plan and yes I'd be positive and even confident.

But delivering Brexit, especially a no deal Brexit, when 400 mp's rejected it in the last amendments votation doesn't give me any signs that this will end well.

And as I said before Brexit is like religion, half of the population think they know everything about the issue and their truth is the only acceptable truth, and think they are entitled to insult and humiliate the other half that thinks the opposite. Another nasty consequence of the referendum.


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## DesoloutionRow (May 18, 2014)

FSL said:


> I'm just a citizen, another taxpayer, just another brick in the wall what agenda could I possibly have?
> 
> I agree the EU is not perfect, not at all. It has its faults and surely that's a lot we don't control.
> 
> ...


My apologies, but I took it from your post that you were excusing the EU and its apparent faults. It seems the general consensus here is that people are unhappy with the EU but would rather remain, thinking it is a lesser of two evils. That is incredibly sad, frustrating and will cause more pain in the longer term.


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## Draykorinee (Aug 4, 2015)

What's all this silliness about a cult and not letting countries out? 

We could leave at any point. It's because OUR government are incompetent not the EU blocking us. 

Makes zero sense


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## Draykorinee (Aug 4, 2015)

Another round of votes and still nothing...


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## roblewis87 (Oct 18, 2016)

The EU has it's problems and needs some kind of reform/updating for sure. 

But like my friend said the other night. The MP's in the UK can't agree on anything at the moment, except when they had the option of giving themselves a hefty pay rise and that got passed very smoothly.


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## Draykorinee (Aug 4, 2015)

roblewis87 said:


> The EU has it's problems and needs some kind of reform/updating for sure.
> 
> But like my friend said the other night. The MP's in the UK can't agree on anything at the moment, except when they had the option of giving themselves a hefty pay rise and that got passed very smoothly.


Pretty much. They are a useless bunch right now. I can't think of many I would vote for. There's that Northern Labour mp, young lass who is really good but otherwise most of them suck.

Edit: The back benches are now trying to put in to law a removal of no deal being an option. Pmsl.


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## FSL (Mar 4, 2014)

So after nearly 3 years of negotiations now May wants Corbyn to help her find some common ground. Really? :lmao

This shit has more twists and turns than a good Netflix series.

The other day a friend of mine was coming back home from abroad, and they were making a drill for a no deal Brexit scenario at Gatwick, checking all passports one-by-one, with police reinforcement. Apparently, the queue was terribly long.

fpalm


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## Twilight Sky (Feb 19, 2019)

Could be worse. Could be like Finland's PM, who dissolved the government when he couldn't get a reform passed. I can imagine the clusterfucked mess of having to rebuild a government, get a new PM, _on top of dealing with Brexit._. Yeah though, this has been a long wild and predictable ride.


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## FSL (Mar 4, 2014)

UK: "Yo, I’ll tell you what I want, what I really really want"
EU: "So tell me what you want, what you really really want"
UK: "I’ll tell you what I want, what I really really want"
EU: "So tell me what you want, what you really really want"
UK: "I wanna, I wanna, I wanna, I wanna, I wanna really really really wanna" another extension please?


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## AlexDovey (Apr 7, 2019)

Sooner brexit is over the better, all politicians did was push for us to leave and second we voted too they all back tracked and wanted someone else to fix it the mess they created, left to an incompetent Theresa May to try and salvage some form of alliance with Europe who rightfully called our bluff and now we are in the shit. Just leave with no deal and replace May with someone capable of making a deal with America and China and when Europe starts sweating after we have left then go back to them and offer a deal that suits the UK. Tired of it being the only thing they talk about on TV.


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## Tag89 (Jul 27, 2014)

maybot on a bigger losing streak than a vegas gambler atm


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## UniversalGleam (Jan 30, 2017)

my biggest annoyance about this whole thing is that the people who were marketing brexit have essentially fucked off since the vote went through. 

even cameron was a spineless piece of shit, if you are going to call a vote, have the leadership quality to see it through no matter what the outcome is. He lit the fuse and ran away.


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## Phee (Apr 7, 2019)

I still have family in England that want Brexit to happen. How the fuck does ANYONE still want this?


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## FSL (Mar 4, 2014)

When you think the all mess couldn't get any weirder, you get a new cliff-edge deadline on Halloween day. >


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## V. Skybox (Jun 24, 2014)

Percentage of UK ethnic minorities who have experienced racism is up 13 points since the Brexit vote, from 58% to 71%.

In other news, Pope Francis has reaffirmed his Catholicism.


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## Nothing Finer (Apr 12, 2017)

V. Skybox said:


> Percentage of UK ethnic minorities who have experienced racism is up 13 points since the Brexit vote, from 58% to 71%.
> 
> In other news, Pope Francis has reaffirmed his Catholicism.


I never understand why people associate Brexit with racism. Every country in the EU is majority white and majority Christian or irreligious. The UK will get more immigration from majority black or brown countries if it leaves the EU to replace the lower amount of immigration from Europe.


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## BRITLAND (Jun 17, 2012)

There goes Andrea Leadsom, apparently she planning a leadership bid.

The Conservative leadership race is going to be interesting once Theresa goes. The likes of Boris, Leadsom, Sajid, Raab, Gove, McVey, Stewart etc all fighting for it is going to be one hell of a shit show!


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## Rowdy Yates (Nov 24, 2014)

Very comprimised at the polling booth this afternoon. Usually i know which way i will be voting long before the day arrives. Today was different. Two excellent candidates both deserving of my vote. In the end I went with Farage who just edged out Tommy Robinson mainly due to his experience and political nous. Tommy is doing some great work though and is definatly one to keep a eye on in the future


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## Draykorinee (Aug 4, 2015)

Rowdy Yates said:


> Very comprimised at the polling booth this afternoon. Usually i know which way i will be voting long before the day arrives. Today was different. Two excellent candidates both deserving of my vote. In the end I went with Farage who just edged out Tommy Robinson mainly due to his experience and political nous. Tommy is doing some great work though and is definatly one to keep a eye on in the future


Lol. Good trolling.



BRITLAND said:


> There goes Andrea Leadsom, apparently she planning a leadership bid.
> 
> The Conservative leadership race is going to be interesting once Theresa goes. The likes of Boris, Leadsom, Sajid, Raab, Gove, McVey, Stewart etc all fighting for it is going to be one hell of a shit show!


Andrea is a great candidate, she's had children you know.


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## Rowdy Yates (Nov 24, 2014)

Draykorinee said:


> Lol. Good trolling.
> 
> 
> 
> Andrea is a great candidate, she's had children you know.


100% not trolling. Best 2 options on the ticket, by quite a distance aswell 

I wanted to vote for somebody who wants to honour what the public voted for and that is to get us the fuck out of the E.U. preferably without a deal and pronto. Farage and his Brexit party met my required criteria 

I was at a Tommy Robinson rally in my home town a few weeks ago and if i said i was not impressed I would be lying. I judge people on what I see and hear. Not what the ridiculously bias left wing media that is more than abundant in this country tells me to believe


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## BRITLAND (Jun 17, 2012)

Draykorinee said:


> Andrea is a great candidate, she's had children you know.


Not as great as Michael Gove, he has links to Rupert Murdoch you know!


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## Berzerker's Beard (Nov 20, 2012)

V. Skybox said:


> Percentage of UK ethnic minorities who have experienced racism is up 13 points since the Brexit vote, from 58% to 71%.
> 
> In other news, Pope Francis has reaffirmed his Catholicism.


the headline says 'nationwide study', but the article reveals it's nothing more than a survey. (of only 1,006 hand selected people)

it's almost as if it's entirely full of shit or something.


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## Seb (Jun 13, 2007)

Rowdy Yates said:


> Very comprimised at the polling booth this afternoon. Usually i know which way i will be voting long before the day arrives. Today was different. Two excellent candidates both deserving of my vote. In the end I went with Farage who just edged out Tommy Robinson mainly due to his experience and political nous. Tommy is doing some great work though and is definatly one to keep a eye on in the future


Wouldn't vote for Tommy personally (although his coverage by the media has been disgraceful), but myself and almost everyone I know has voted for the Brexit party this time. Essex is normally overwhelmingly Tory, they have the sitting MP in all 18 constituencies at the moment, but nothing is more important than democracy, and people are fed up.

Not that I trust the polls as they've got everything wrong for years (17 election, 15 election, EU referendum, etc) - but I have to say it's fairly amusing to see the newly formed "leave at all costs" party look set to absolutely dominate, whist the newly formed "stay at all costs" party is sitting at about 3% in the polls.


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## CamillePunk (Feb 10, 2011)

Nigel Farage is truly a force of nature. :lol


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## DOPA (Jul 13, 2012)

Honestly, it amazes me that Theresa May has lasted this long. She should have gone months ago yet the old hag somehow kept managing to hold on to power :lol. It's looking likely that she's going now though and not a moment too soon.

If the Tories actually want to deliver on the referendum result and leave the EU properly they need to actually elect a Brexit PM and not make the same mistake twice. Boris Johnson is looking like the front runner right now which.....well, the only positive things I can say is that he at least campaigned on Brexit and is better than Theresa May which isn't say much. He was a pretty embarrassing foreign minister if true be told. I agree with Farage that I don't exactly trust him with the Brexit negotiations but we'll see what happens. Maybe Gove will stab him in the back again 8*D.

As far as the European Elections goes, I voted over a week ago on postal vote and much like most Leavers, I switched to *the Brexit Party* this time around and depending on how Brexit is handled from here, I could honestly see myself voting for them in a general election too but that's either here nor there. 

It wasn't too hard of a decision, I'm based in London so most likely you'll have Labour pick up the majority of seats but it looks like the BP will pick up 1 or 2 of those seats as well if polling is to be believed. In my area, we have Gerard Batten the leader of UKIP running to retain his seat and whilst I quite like the guy personally, it's clear UKIP have lost their way for a long while. Half the time they honestly weren't even campaigning on the EU or Brexit. Same can be said for Tommy Robinson who I only heard mention the subject a handful of times.

The Conservatives are a mess, Labour has no clear direction and the rest of the parties are ardently pro-remain/pro-second referendum so it only left me one choice and honestly, other than the actual 2016 referendum vote, it's the only vote I've made where I'm very happy with the decision and that it was an option available to me. Every general election except the last where the options were so bad I couldn't bring myself to vote has felt like a lesser of several evils type situation.

There has been a lot of energy around the Brexit Party these Euro elections, more so than any other party. A lot of momentum has been built in just 5 and a half weeks, people like @Seb said are fed up that the Brexit process has been delayed and kicked down the road and rightly so considering how badly not only the government but the 2/3's remain parliament has handled it. Many simply refuse to accept the decision that was made.

The last thing the Conservatives want right now is another general election because it would hand the country over to Labour and Jeremy Corbyn who would be there essentially by proxy, not because he's actually done anything to warrant being there. The Tories are petrified of the Brexit Party because of how many Conservatives have switched to the BP in the Euro elections and the fact that latest polling figures show both the BP and the Lib Dems picking up 50+ seats in a general election with a massive crash for the Conservative Party. They are in dire straits right now.

This is essentially the difference at least for now between the UKIP of 2015 and the Brexit Party in 2019. In those Euro elections, the Conservatives came 2nd, in these Euro elections they may drop as low as 5th as both Remainers and Leavers look elsewhere. The difference is though that the Remain vote is divided and split among different parties whilst the vast majority of Leavers in this election are united behind the Brexit Party.

That's the big story of these elections if the polls are to be believed....and we know how bad polls have been in recent years so I'm not counting anything out.

At least Change UK are getting battered :HA.


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## Rugrat (Jun 30, 2013)

Idc too much about these results. Farage has always done well at these (including his party getting the most seats at the last one before UKIP got a single seat at the 2015 election from a defected Tory), but it’s not massively indicative of much at the more important elections.


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## CamillePunk (Feb 10, 2011)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1131848934853423104
time for King Nigel I imo


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## Hangman (Feb 3, 2017)

You can't barrage the Farage.

:WOO


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## CJ (Jun 28, 2011)

CamillePunk said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1131848934853423104
> time for King Nigel I imo


Good fucking riddance :bye


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## Rugrat (Jun 30, 2013)

I feel bad for May tbh. She got lumped with a load of shit and got blamed for a lot of it.


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## FSL (Mar 4, 2014)

Bloody hell now we'll likely get Bozo as PM. 

But nothing will change as he will hit the same walls TM hit. He can even try to push for a No Deal Brexit but the parliament won't pass it. 

A general election will follow...


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## Hangman (Feb 3, 2017)

What if Brock cashed in on Teresa May right now?

Imagine Paulie in the house of commons! 

"Ladies and Gentlemen your reigning, defending, undisputed British Heavyweight Prime Minister...

BRRRRROOOOCCCKKKK LLLLLLLESNAR!"

:boombrock

:WOO


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## FSL (Mar 4, 2014)

:sodone:sodone


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## Seb (Jun 13, 2007)

Felt bad for May really, doomed position from the start.

She should've gone long ago though, and really she should've never been Prime Minister.

Please not fucking Boris.


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## Nothing Finer (Apr 12, 2017)

Seb said:


> Felt bad for May really, doomed position from the start.
> 
> She should've gone long ago though, and really she should've never been Prime Minister.
> 
> Please not fucking Boris.


It was the election that killed her. If she wins a decent majority her deal gets through and the UK's already out. Nobody's really happy with it, but it gets through because the Eurosceptics can't shift a leader who's won an election. Even if she hadn't called it, she could have called one now in reaction to the deal not getting through portraying herself as doing it to beat the extremists in her party and obstructionists in Labour.


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## Twilight Sky (Feb 19, 2019)

I feel like the whole entire escapade was the other party trying to oust her out and claim power, rather than actually opposing Brexit.


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## Rugrat (Jun 30, 2013)

Nothing Finer said:


> It was the election that killed her. If she wins a decent majority her deal gets through and the UK's already out. Nobody's really happy with it, but it gets through because the Eurosceptics can't shift a leader who's won an election. Even if she hadn't called it, she could have called one now in reaction to the deal not getting through portraying herself as doing it to beat the extremists in her party and obstructionists in Labour.


Half wanted to stay and half wanted to leave. Then you had the additional factor of remainers who want to stay regardless, leavers who would complain at a soft Brexit and further remainers who’d complain at a hard Brexit. Similar attitudes are reflected in parliament.

There simply wasn’t a way of appeasing the majority.


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## samizayn (Apr 25, 2011)

Brexit Party win in UK. No idea why "Brexiteers" continue to cry and shit themselves over 2ref.


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## skypod (Nov 13, 2014)

Looking at Scotland on the electoral map, all yellow, it's kind of insane how split the "UK" still is.


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## BRITLAND (Jun 17, 2012)

It appears the final results will look like this:

Brexit Party - 29
Liberal Democrats - 16
Labour - 10
Greens - 7
Conservatives - 4
SNP - 3
Plaid Cymru - 1

While not officially declared, Scotland's results appear to most likely be SNP 3, Brexit 1, Lib Dem 1 and Conservative 1. The only reason they haven't declared yet is due to the Western Isles not counting till tomorrow for some reason.

Northern Ireland will result in DUP 1, Sinn Fein 1 and the third seat going to wither UUP, SDLP or Alliance.


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## Rowdy Yates (Nov 24, 2014)

Only formed 6 months ago and led by Nigel Farage the Brexit party totally dominates the European elections in the U.K

Delighted indeed


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## Draykorinee (Aug 4, 2015)

Everyone saw this coming, it was too easy for Brexit party.

I hope they stick around and break the tories in a general election, would be glorious. 

The next general will be a hung parliament no doubt.


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## BRITLAND (Jun 17, 2012)

Draykorinee said:


> Everyone saw this coming, it was too easy for Brexit party.
> 
> I hope they stick around and break the tories in a general election, would be glorious.
> 
> The next general will be a hung parliament no doubt.


I'm sure I posted this earlier on in the thread but imagine having an October General Election with these being the results:
https://www.flavible.com/politics/map/polls.php?sid=1935

Labour - 330
Conservative - 112
Lib Dem - 79
SNP - 53
Brexit - 51
Plaid - 4
Greens - 2
Independent - 1
Northern Ireland - 18 

So since the elections are over Farage promised he would unveil his parties domestic policies. I imagine these would be the same typical UKIP domestic policies such as points based immigration, constitutional reform (federal UK/EVEL, Lords abolition), tuition free university for STEMM, tougher law and order such as life sentences meaning life, three strikes rule etc


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## DocBlue (Jul 30, 2011)

samizayn said:


> Brexit Party win in UK. No idea why "Brexiteers" continue to cry and shit themselves over 2ref.


Probably because the vote share between the out and out pro Brexit/remain parties is still pretty even



Draykorinee said:


> Everyone saw this coming, it was too easy for Brexit party.
> 
> I hope they stick around and break the tories in a general election, would be glorious.
> 
> The next general will be a hung parliament no doubt.


Yeah I can't see the next PM calling an early GE with the way things stand atm. It would be an absolute disaster


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## UniversalGleam (Jan 30, 2017)

feel somewhat sorry for theresa may after he speech. I think she was out of her depth with all this, as most people would be. Shes clearly not got the right personality or attitude to be prime minister during a time like this. I cant even remember the last time she did any interviews or debates because she seemingly didnt have the personality to carry them well.

her biggest issue seemed to be lack of decision whilst trying to please everyone. She really shouldve picked a stance on brexit and really went to town on it at which point she either wins or goes down swinging. As it stands, she carried out half measures and now will leave with everything in chaos......not a good ending.


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## Hangman (Feb 3, 2017)

BRITLAND said:


> I'm sure I posted this earlier on in the thread but imagine having an October General Election with these being the results:
> https://www.flavible.com/politics/map/polls.php?sid=1935
> 
> Labour - 330
> ...


Labour ain't gonna win anytime soon my friend.


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## Draykorinee (Aug 4, 2015)

I sadly, very sadly for once have to agree with Ultron. A corbyn lead labour party can not win outright. But I can guarantee the Liberal Democrats will join them in a hung parliament over the tories this time, they've learnt getting in bed with the devil does not help. 

A lot hangs on who is the next leader of the tories and how Brexit goes under him /her.


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## V. Skybox (Jun 24, 2014)

Tories want Brexit even if
- It breaks up the UK (so much for Conservative and *Unionist* Party)
- It destroys the UK economy
- It destroys the Tory Party itself

Let there be no illusion about what this is. A hard-right Tory project for Boris and co. to rule as dictators


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## Reservoir Angel (Aug 7, 2010)

Good to know that the Conservative and Unionist party is collectively willing to rip apart the union, destroy the economy and burn to the ground everything they stand for just for the sake of giving Nigel Farage the most thunderous orgasm in human history.

We're all just utterly fucked, aren't we? Boris Johnson is going to be our next, and last, Prime Minister before the country descends into mindless insanity and gets forcibly quarantined by the rest of the world like Arkham fucking City. Just seal the crazy psychopaths in and let them tear themselves apart while the rest of humanity gets the fuck on with its business largely unbothered.


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## deepelemblues (Sep 26, 2011)

If the EU is going to try to make Britain sit at the geek or smelly kid table in the cafeteria and trip Britain and knock Britain's books out of its arms in the halls because Britain didn't want to be in their club anymore, just how far does the idea of European comity and amity actually go

Does it go as far as the nations of Europe bonding together more and more over time because that's a fine and dandy ideal with a solid cultural and popular foundation of fraternal European ties

Or does it only go as far as the people on top wanting to get a whole continent to rule, because that's a fine and dandy ideal for them, with a solid financial and power interest for them, and woe betide anyone who affronts their goal


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## Reservoir Angel (Aug 7, 2010)

deepelemblues said:


> If the EU is going to try to make Britain sit at the geek or smelly kid table in the cafeteria and trip Britain and knock Britain's books out of its arms in the halls because Britain didn't want to be in their club anymore, just how far does the idea of European comity and amity actually go


This analogy paints Britain as some innocent victim just getting picked on through no fault of its own. The more appropriate analogy is that the EU is giving Britain the silent treatment and not helping it with its homework because Britain's spent their entire school life together constantly insulting it and at the last house party the EU threw Britain took a shit on the living room rug and told someone else to clean it up.


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## deepelemblues (Sep 26, 2011)

Reservoir Angel said:


> This analogy paints Britain as some innocent victim just getting picked on through no fault of its own. The more appropriate analogy is that the EU is giving Britain the silent treatment and not helping it with its homework because Britain's spent their entire school life together constantly insulting it and at the last house party the EU threw Britain took a shit on the living room rug and told someone else to clean it up.


I wasn't aware that silent treatment and not helping with homework involved making punitive policy that it is alleged will cause major economic and social ills for Britain

Homework and your delightful references to Arkham City and (albeit un-named) Mad Max are different things

Not too many people get torn apart doing homework

If statesmen can't handle insults from Nigel Farage it just goes to my suspicion that Europe is behaving in a sinister fashion, arrived via an odd puerility. Odd at least if you consider these people to be mature, professional adults who should act accordingly 

I cannot think of anything Britain has done equivalent to shitting on the EU's rug other than voting to leave the EU, and the act of leaving being compared to shitting on the rug is silly. Maybe you could divulge this rug-shitting incident because really it sounds like an amusing story of drunk shenanigans. Those British and their whisky 

The simple :fact is that the EU's stance has essentially precluded the fostering of ever-closer bonds of fraternity between Britain and the EU for an indefinite, but surely lengthy, period of time. Bonds that might, after some other indefinite but likely not overly long period of time, would likely facilitate Britain rejoining the EU. This vindictiveness goes dead against the professed ideals of European political integration and reveals a much less appealing side of Europe. It is a major error. It increases the strength of Euroskeptics in the south and east

The myopia of the major players on both sides is startling. The Leavers seem to be in disbelief that the EU will throw the promised snit, and the EU seems to not see or care that throwing that snit will have unintended consequences outweighing any satisfaction received from trying to make it cold outside and keep Britain in that cold


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## Nothing Finer (Apr 12, 2017)

deepelemblues said:


> If the EU is going to try to make Britain sit at the geek or smelly kid table in the cafeteria and trip Britain and knock Britain's books out of its arms in the halls because Britain didn't want to be in their club anymore, just how far does the idea of European comity and amity actually go
> 
> Does it go as far as the nations of Europe bonding together more and more over time because that's a fine and dandy ideal with a solid cultural and popular foundation of fraternal European ties
> 
> Or does it only go as far as the people on top wanting to get a whole continent to rule, because that's a fine and dandy ideal for them, with a solid financial and power interest for them, and woe betide anyone who affronts their goal


The EU has been extremely generous to the UK. They're happy for the UK to stay in, they're happy for the UK to be in EFTA, and if the UK wants to leave and have a free trade deal they've offered that to the UK too. The UK has rejected everything.

The EU is incredibly decentralised in terms of power. There are 28 heads of state who select the executive and make all the real decisions, as well as various councils of ministers and the EU Parliament. There's no one small group of people on top ruling everything, it couldn't be further from the truth.


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## michael_3165 (Apr 16, 2016)

deepelemblues said:


> I wasn't aware that silent treatment and not helping with homework involved *making punitive policy that it is alleged will cause major economic and social ills for Britain
> *
> Homework and your delightful references to Arkham City and (albeit un-named) Mad Max are different things
> 
> ...


If you think the EU are going to play nice and give us concessions and arrangements that will potentially cause other countries to follow us out of the EU you are naïve. They will NOT help us out because they want the project to continue regardless of the economic impacts to EU businesses. What do you expect them to do? Make it easy for us? No. It won't happen. They must protect their interests and that means making it a tad harder for us because we have essentially told them to go fuck themselves and they aren't going to appreciate that. 

I am actually surprised at how reasonable the EU have been. They have given much more than I thought they would. We have gone there, spent huge sums of money, time and effort and got a deal. Then we go back and say 'sorry we want more'. No. That's not how this works. You can't negotiate and when it doesn't suit just go back and ask for more concessions.

Personally (as a leaver turned remainer) if I were the EU I would tell the UK to go fuck themselves and accept the terms that we set out from the beginning. There are set red lines that will not change. Either UK accept these or they can walk. The EU have been much more accommodating.


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## michael_3165 (Apr 16, 2016)

Nothing Finer said:


> The EU has been extremely generous to the UK. They're happy for the UK to stay in, they're happy for the UK to be in EFTA, and if the UK wants to leave and have a free trade deal they've offered that to the UK too. The UK has rejected everything.
> 
> The EU is incredibly decentralised in terms of power. There are 28 heads of state who select the executive and make all the real decisions, as well as various councils of ministers and the EU Parliament. There's no one small group of people on top ruling everything, it couldn't be further from the truth.


Shhh that doesn't fit the Daily Mail narrative!


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## michael_3165 (Apr 16, 2016)

UniversalGleam said:


> feel somewhat sorry for theresa may after he speech. I think she was out of her depth with all this, as most people would be. Shes clearly not got the right personality or attitude to be prime minister during a time like this. I cant even remember the last time she did any interviews or debates because she seemingly didnt have the personality to carry them well.
> 
> her biggest issue seemed to be lack of decision whilst trying to please everyone.* She really shouldve picked a stance on brexit and really went to town on it *at which point she either wins or goes down swinging. As it stands, she carried out half measures and now will leave with everything in chaos......not a good ending.


One could argue that she did just that. Went in with one ideal and refused to budge even when everyone else hated it.


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## Nothing Finer (Apr 12, 2017)

michael_3165 said:


> Shhh that doesn't fit the Daily Mail narrative!


This should be required reading for anyone who complains about EU treatment of the UK


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## Draykorinee (Aug 4, 2015)

I love how Deep doesn't highlight the weak bargaining from the UK but takes umbrage with the EU taking a strong position. The UK voters were told repeatedly that we held 4 Aces but it turns out we just had a couple of twos and two jokers.


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## UniversalGleam (Jan 30, 2017)

michael_3165 said:


> One could argue that she did just that. Went in with one ideal and refused to budge even when everyone else hated it.


That is true, though I think that one main reason why she stuck with that ideal was because she didnt have the position, nor the skills or personality to actually negotiate a better one so just kept pushing it through in the hopes that it would eventually work, it was either that or step down. She obviously wouldnt want to step down if she could somehow fix the problem but the only tool she had was the crappy deal she secured.

It basically boiled down to her hated deal or no deal, once no deal was taken off the table at the time, she literally had no options left because no-one wanted her deal. The concept of just getting a better deal didnt materialise because it wasnt doable or she simply couldnt get the job done.

may just got backed into a corner to the point the only way out was for her to finally fuck off.

It was stupid to take no deal off the table even if you no intention or desire to use it. Its called leverage. You don't tell the car salesmen that you have no intention to walk away without the car because he then knows that he can pretty much ask what he likes because you have already confirmed that the only option is to buy it. There is no longer a requirement for him to secure the sale and becomes less concerned about you want and more about he can get.


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## Draykorinee (Aug 4, 2015)

This can't be real.


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## BRITLAND (Jun 17, 2012)

Draykorinee said:


> This can't be real.


It is mate.

Its also the no.1 story on global news outlets, including many of the American ones were foreign news is generally ignored.

I fully expect the UK to be the butt of all chat show jokes tonight as well as John Oliver doing yet another full show dedicated to Queen and Country.


----------



## Ninja Hedgehog (Mar 22, 2018)

This man is Prime Minister of a country........


----------



## Rankles75 (May 29, 2011)

Boris and Donald both in charge, cue the 4 Horsemen...


----------



## Tater (Jan 3, 2012)

I don't follow UK politics that much but didn't he get the prime minister spot from the politicians voting him in and not the voters? So he's basically an unelected PM?


----------



## Ninja Hedgehog (Mar 22, 2018)

Tater said:


> I don't follow UK politics that much but didn't he get the prime minister spot from the politicians voting him in and not the voters? So he's basically an unelected PM?


Pretty much. So was Theresa May though.

Democracy!!!!


----------



## UniversalGleam (Jan 30, 2017)

Tater said:


> I don't follow UK politics that much but didn't he get the prime minister spot from the politicians voting him in and not the voters? So he's basically an unelected PM?


theresa may was the same after she took the reigns when david cameron pissed off. Think gordan brown was possibly the same but I can't remember that shit heap of man very well.

saying that, this isnt really the same as president elections in the US though. You vote for the party, not the individual per say. Its just a question of who is fronting the party.

thats why the prime minister election doesnt get thrown out to the general public. From their perspective, it not really needed, the public voted for the conservatives as a party so any internal changes within that voted party is a question for themselves. 

it simply depends on how you look at it.


----------



## Art Vandaley (Jan 9, 2006)

Tater said:


> I don't follow UK politics that much but didn't he get the prime minister spot from the politicians voting him in and not the voters? So he's basically an unelected PM?


Prime Ministers aren't elected by the people, they're elected by Parliament, Leader of the House is the comparable American position.


----------



## Draykorinee (Aug 4, 2015)

Tater said:


> I don't follow UK politics that much but didn't he get the prime minister spot from the politicians voting him in and not the voters? So he's basically an unelected PM?


He had this to say when Gordon Brown got the job the same way.



> “It’s the arrogance. It’s the contempt. That’s what gets me. It’s Gordon Brown’s apparent belief that he can just trample on the democratic will of the British people. It’s at moments like this that I think the political world has gone mad, and I am alone in detecting the gigantic fraud.”
> 
> “The extraordinary thing is that it looks as though he will now be in 10 Downing Street for three years, and without a mandate from the British people. No one elected Gordon Brown as Prime Minister…”


I will just say he was elected by the Conservative party not the MPs, so if you are a registered Tory voter you get to decide the next PM, the other 65 million get no say.

Democrucsee.

Supposedly he now has a HUGE mandate.



> Conservative MP and Boris Johnson supporter Robert Jenrick says "this is a fantastic result for Boris Johnson" and he now has a "huge mandate".


I hate most politicians because they're hypocritical, lying cunts.








Good old Kofi.


----------



## FSL (Mar 4, 2014)

Draykorinee said:


> This can't be real.


It is real and the fuckery will have no limits. A living meme...:laugh:

:washed2


----------



## Tater (Jan 3, 2012)

Thanks for the explanations. (Y)


----------



## Mainboy (Jan 30, 2012)

Sad time for us UK and US people on here who have 2 fucking morons in charge of both countries.

Hopefully Scottish Independence happens soon.


----------



## Seb (Jun 13, 2007)

Ninja Hedgehog said:


> Pretty much. So was Theresa May though.
> 
> Democracy!!!!


So was Gordon Brown.

So was John Major.

4 of our last 6 prime ministers. People haven't seem that bothered by it until now. Gordon Brown got the job without even being opposed and I don't recall many people caring, even when it was obvious very quickly he would never win an election.

Cameron didn't win a majority either first time around. Blair is the only genuinely popular prime minister I can remember, before he took us into an illegal war which tarnished his legacy.


----------



## MrMister (Mar 11, 2005)

That gif of him running over a child :heston


----------



## zrc (Nov 14, 2011)

Seb said:


> So was Gordon Brown.
> 
> So was John Major.
> 
> ...


they should use that Things can only get better theme song as torture in Guantanamo bay instead of a Westlife album.


----------



## Hangman (Feb 3, 2017)

Mainboy said:


> Sad time for us UK and US people on here who have 2 fucking morons in charge of both countries.
> 
> Hopefully Scottish Independence happens soon.


Hate to break it to you but Scotland would struggle outside the uk.


----------



## Draykorinee (Aug 4, 2015)

Mainboy said:


> Sad time for us UK and US people on here who have 2 fucking morons in charge of both countries.
> 
> Hopefully Scottish Independence happens soon.


It will, guaranteed.


----------



## BRITLAND (Jun 17, 2012)

The new cabinet is as followed:


Boris Johnson - Prime Minister
Dominic Raab - Foreign Secretary & First Secretary of State
Sajid Javid - Chancellor of the Exchequer
Priti Patel - Home Secretary
Ben Wallace - Defence Secretary
Stephen Barclay - Brexit Secretary
Liz Truss - International Trade Secretary
Robert Buckland - Justice Secretary & Lord Chancellor
Matt Hancock - Health & Social Care Secretary
Gavin Williamson - Education Secretary
Amber Rudd - Work & Pensions Secretary & Women & Equalities Minister
Andrea Leadsom - Business Secretary
Theresa Villiers - Environment Secretary
Robert Jenrick - Housing & Communities Secretary
Grant Shapps - Transport Secretary
Alok Sharma - International Development Secretary
Nicky Morgan - Digital, Media, Culture, Sport Secretary
Alister Jack - Scotland Secretary
Alun Cairns - Wales Secretary
Julian Smith - Northern Ireland Secretary
Rishi Sunak - Chief Secretary to the Treasury
Michael Gove - Cabinet Office Minister & Chancellor for the Duchy of Lancaster
Jacob Rees-Mogg - Leader of the House of Commons
Natalie Evans - Leader of the House of Lords
Geoffrey Cox - Attorney General
Mark Spencer - Chief Whip
James Cleverly - Conservative Party Chairman
Esther McVey - Housing & Planning Minister
Brandon Lewis - Home Office Minister
Jo Johnson - Universities & Science Minister
Oliver Dowden - Paymaster General & Cabinet Office Minister
Kwasi Kwarteng - Business Minister


A pretty right wing cabinet, a lot more so than the David Cameron days anyway, very Britannia Unchained focused with Rabb and Patal in two of the great offices of state.

Looking forward to Boris vs Jeremy PMQs, should be comical.


----------



## Ninja Hedgehog (Mar 22, 2018)

BRITLAND said:


> The new cabinet is as followed:
> 
> 
> Boris Johnson - Prime Minister
> ...


What an absolute drizzling shower of cunts. Top to bottom


----------



## FSL (Mar 4, 2014)

There will be a lot more of name calling, pointing fingers, I can already see the Express readers drooling hate but in the end the result will be the same. Another extension. I don't understand why people think that by changing the muppets it changes the parliamentary arithmetic. No majority for No deal to pass in the Commons. 

Well enjoy the circus


----------



## FriedTofu (Sep 29, 2014)

Littlefinger won the Iron Throne. The guy that didn't have the balls to run for office after Brexit is the one expected to be tough on EU in negotiations? Oh dear.


----------



## FSL (Mar 4, 2014)

£1=1.06€ thank you Bozo, keeping forcing a no deal Brexit and we will have the pound weaker than the Euro in no time ffs. ?


----------



## 2 Ton 21 (Dec 28, 2011)

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/boris-johnson-accused-of-deeply-dangerous-behavior-after-reports-he-will-shutter-parliament-ahead-of-brexit/2019/08/28/6bca5988-c96f-11e9-a1fe-ca46e8d573c0_story.html



> *Boris Johnson moves to suspend Parliament ahead of Brexit deadline*
> 
> LONDON — Prime Minister Boris Johnson said Wednesday that he wanted to shut down Parliament for several weeks ahead of Britain’s upcoming departure from the European Union, an unusual maneuver that would rob his opponents of time to thwart a no-deal Brexit.
> 
> ...




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1166631050531024896


----------



## Carter84 (Feb 4, 2018)

Ninja Hedgehog said:


> What an absolute drizzling shower of cunts. Top to bottom



Not one of them has a fucking clue how to run a country, sajid as chancellor is the biggest mistake he's ran a little buisness not the country's financial coffers , its full of brexiteers .

God help us @RavishingRickRules;


----------



## Draykorinee (Aug 4, 2015)

It's so tragic, there's no part of me that wants the UK to fail so hard like it is and will do but we told you so well be sung super loudly.


----------



## Tag89 (Jul 27, 2014)

just got 1000 euros holiday money...for 928 quid lol

remember when it was 1.3 euros to a pound? 1.5? 1.7 way back? i remember

also, i see that PM BJ is trying to get HM involved

lizzie needs to take a break from shielding prince nonce, and enter parliament with this playing:


----------



## Mainboy (Jan 30, 2012)

BJ can go fuck himself. The tory government keep ruining the UK.


----------



## DesolationRow (Oct 11, 2009)

Full article here: http://www.theguardian.com/politics...-brexit-government-launches-information-blitz



> ‘Get Ready for Brexit’: government launches information blitz
> 
> Public advertising campaign said to be country’s biggest ever urges Britons to visit website
> 
> ...


----------



## Ninja Hedgehog (Mar 22, 2018)

DesolationRow said:


> Downing Street has previously briefed that the taxpayer-funded advertising campaign will cost up to £100m, *although doubts have been raised over whether the government will realistically be able to spend that much on a campaign lasting just two months.* One leading advertising industry source pointed out that this figure was substantially higher than the amount spent on traditional advertising in the UK by major consumer brands such as Amazon, Tesco and Asda in the whole of 2018.


Oh, i'm sure they will find a way.......


----------



## Draykorinee (Aug 4, 2015)

Everyone outside of the US: Trump is the most embarrassing thing in politics.

UK: hold my Beer


----------



## FSL (Mar 4, 2014)

Boris an unelected PM

Just lost his working majority in his first session in the house of commons

Thinks that is entitled to bypass parliament and force the UK to crash out of the EU.

"It's going to be the easiest deal ever, we will have a better deal than the one we currently have with the EU"

:heston:heston:heston:heston:heston:heston:heston:heston:heston:heston:heston:heston:heston:heston:heston:heston:heston:heston:heston:heston:heston:heston:heston:heston:heston:heston:heston:heston:heston:heston:heston:heston:heston:heston:heston:heston:heston:heston:heston:heston:heston:heston


----------



## Seb (Jun 13, 2007)

Whole thing is a shit show from pretty much all sides.

On the one hand you've got Boris, a bumbling careerist Eton relic threatening to boot out his own MP's and trying to pretend proroguing parliament at this time isn't so he can try and bulldoze no deal through. With pretty much minimal planning and whilst not seeming to care about seeking improved terms from the EU (despite insisting he is doing so).

On the other hand you've got the remain parties, who after blocking "the only deal" three times, are now trying to remove the other option (no deal) whilst trying to pretend their real motive isn't to overturn/disregard the referendum result because it wasn't the result they wanted. Even though nearly all of them voted for both the referendum and to invoke A50.

Labour even now tentative about an election despite Corbyn begging for one for months and them begging Brexit be "put back to the people because they might change their mind". All because they know the prospect of socialist Corbyn as PM with communist McDonnell as chancellor is even less appealing to the public than leaving without a deal, and that both major parties would haemorrhage seats to the Lib Dems and the Brexit Party.


----------



## Draykorinee (Aug 4, 2015)

Don't forget this mess.


----------



## Crona (Mar 9, 2011)

Holy shit Boris Johnson is an insufferable twat.


----------



## 2 Ton 21 (Dec 28, 2011)

First time since 1793 that a Prime Minister has lost his first vote.


----------



## FSL (Mar 4, 2014)

Ok so as I predicted we are heading for general elections.
Nigel Farage as an mp... lmao

No deal Brexit is bullshit. During the campaign we were promised:

- A smooth transition
- An easy negotiation
- A better deal than the one we currently have
- Money to the NHS instead

No one told us about:

- Stockpiling 
- The problem the Irish Border would create
- Billions spent in preparation for the No Deal
- The crash of the Sterling pound
- The queues that are expected in Dover

Next time when a government decides to put the decision in the peoples hand at least be decent enough to present the facts rather than planting some slogans on a bus promising the moon.


----------



## Rankles75 (May 29, 2011)

FSL said:


> Ok so as I predicted we are heading for general elections.
> Nigel Farage as an mp... lmao
> 
> No deal Brexit is bullshit. During the campaign we were promised:
> ...


Can’t believe I was 100% going to vote Leave until a few days beforehand, when I actually read up on it instead of blindly following the EU=evil mantra decades of reading the Sun had drummed into me.


----------



## Carter84 (Feb 4, 2018)

Hopefully if labour get rid of corbyn we move back to the center left and have Sir Keir Starmer as leader we will have a good chance of winning , with corbyn in I'm voting lib dem as Boris is a mong and corbyn would bankrupt the country , basically we are fucked either way , but labour is best when at the centre we didn't win 3 elections in a row even after the botched Iraq attempt , the tories will make a pact with the fcking Brexit party the idiots , I don't agree with Ken Clarke policy's but on Europe we are in tandem.

please sack corbyn this could be our chance the party I hold dear to my heart and have done numerous canvassing for but corbyn as leader is as shit as I've know things ever!!



Rankles75 said:


> Can’t believe I was 100% going to vote Leave until a few days beforehand, when I actually read up on it instead of blindly following the EU=evil mantra decades of reading the Sun had drummed into me.


The daily mirror is the best paper , I wouldn't even wipe my arse with the sun after the shit the put in about it being footy fans fault over the hillsbrough disaster where the 97 people died , plus I it's full of shit too.



Ninja Hedgehog said:


> Oh, i'm sure they will find a way.......


They have fucktards with deep pockets running it behind the scenes too mate us labour voters have the trade unions ffs .

Trump will win again even with joe budden in the democratic running , shame he's a good guy would be a good president too .

The U.K. Has never been in such a state even the eighties weren't as bad my mam said I can remember when we won the election in 97 in 99 we got loads of new stuff at school which had been there since 79 a teacher said .

Peace @Ninja Hedgehog;:smile2: one of the best guys on the site by far .


----------



## Draykorinee (Aug 4, 2015)

They ran as being centre left in the elections but the Blair government were very much centre right (Using normal left-right values not the insane misuse of the terms Americans have).

Their actions gutted this country both financially and morally. Fuck Blair and fuck anyone associated with him.

Corbyn needs to go because whilst I have no issues with left wing policy he is unelectable, everyone says he nearly beat May, well May ran the worst campaign of all time, the idea he will bankrupt the country is certainly not evidence based so I disagree entirely on that.

A GE now will benefit no one but the Brexit Party, maybe Boris and certainly the Lib dems.


----------



## Chris JeriG.O.A.T (Jun 17, 2014)

Draykorinee said:


> They ran as being centre left in the elections but the Blair government were very much centre right (Using normal left-right values not the insane misuse of the terms Americans have).
> 
> Their actions gutted this country both financially and morally. Fuck Blair and fuck anyone associated with him.
> 
> ...


What does center-right stand for policy-wise in Europe? As an American I can't even conceptualize right wing politics being compatible with socialism.


----------



## Draykorinee (Aug 4, 2015)

Chris JeriG.O.A.T said:


> What does center-right stand for policy-wise in Europe? As an American I can't even conceptualize right wing politics being compatible with socialism.


Deregulation and free market capitalism is a big one, privatisation of healthcare being another, that can be complete privatisation which would always get voted down, the other is to privatise services and less government run hospitals etc. For example the Tories started selling off certain care to companies like Virgin. Blair introduced Tuition fees as well and wasted billions by getting private companies to build Hosiptals at a HUGE cost to the taxpayer in the long term.

Perhaps Margaret Thatcher herself might phrase it better:

Late in 2002 Lady Thatcher came to Hampshire to speak at a dinner for me. Taking her round at the reception one of the guests asked her what was her greatest achievement. She replied, "Tony Blair and New Labour. We forced our opponents to change their minds."

He did some good things, minimum wage for example but that doesn't stop the fact he was at the very best Centre but really, centre right.


----------



## Nothing Finer (Apr 12, 2017)

Chris JeriG.O.A.T said:


> What does center-right stand for policy-wise in Europe? As an American I can't even conceptualize right wing politics being compatible with socialism.


Socialism isn't a binary, it's all on a spectrum. The US is a somewhat socialist society, publicly funded education, emergency rooms, social security, fire services etc. Most European countries wouldn't consider themselves socialist. The European centre is just further left than the American one.

The European right stands for stricter requirements and lower payments on welfare, less investment in public services such as transport and education more openness to private involvement in healthcare (still free, the state just contracts out the services), lower taxes. They tend to be stricter on law and order - longer sentences, more money for police - less open to immigration and want to spend more on the military.

They're aiming for more or less the same things as the American right, their aims are just somewhat less right wing because their opponents and the centre are more left wing.

Illegal immigration is one issue where Europe's right is actually a lot more right-wing than the US's. In Europe when the government finds an illegal immigrant they deport him, there's no catch and release.


----------



## Draykorinee (Aug 4, 2015)

Another fine day for Boris Johnson, I didn't think things could be worse than under May but I was proven wrong.


----------



## BRITLAND (Jun 17, 2012)

Carter84 said:


> Hopefully if labour get rid of corbyn we move back to the center left and have Sir Keir Starmer as leader we will have a good chance of winning , with corbyn in I'm voting lib dem as Boris is a mong and corbyn would bankrupt the country , basically we are fucked either way , but labour is best when at the centre we didn't win 3 elections in a row even after the botched Iraq attempt , the tories will make a pact with the fcking Brexit party the idiots , I don't agree with Ken Clarke policy's but on Europe we are in tandem.
> 
> please sack corbyn this could be our chance the party I hold dear to my heart and have done numerous canvassing for but corbyn as leader is as shit as I've know things ever!!


Sir Keir Starmer or Hilary Benn would be my picks to takeover the Labour leadership asap. While both aren't the most charismatic people on earth I feel Britons generally want a Prime Minister who is straight to the point and down to business (the complete opposite of Boris). 

Both I feel would be accepted by both wings of the Labour party (TBF the Momentum wing would probably uncool with Benn due to the Syria vote a few years ago but he'd still be prefered by them than say Liz Kendall, whose entire 2015 leadership campaign consisted solely on agreeing with David Cameron on everything). One of them leading with a similar centre left platform as of now I think would be better. 



Draykorinee said:


> They ran as being centre left in the elections but the Blair government were very much centre right (Using normal left-right values not the insane misuse of the terms Americans have).
> 
> Their actions gutted this country both financially and morally. Fuck Blair and fuck anyone associated with him.
> 
> ...


His manifesto was basically just your typical centre left social democratic policies you'd get in most of North/Western Europe. Feedback on the doorstep I recall consisted of folk saying that the manifesto was very popular but voters just couldn't trust Corbyn, while tabloid press could be blamed for that, his unclear hot potato policy on Europe I would argue is also very much to blame. 

I also had a talk with a tory member recently who actually agreed there was a case for nationalising the railways and water, so such policies aren't really extreme as most would make out, railways are publicly owned in pretty much most of Europe and water is publicly owned in Scotland.



Chris JeriG.O.A.T said:


> What does center-right stand for policy-wise in Europe? As an American I can't even conceptualize right wing politics being compatible with socialism.





Draykorinee said:


> Deregulation and free market capitalism is a big one, privatisation of healthcare being another, that can be complete privatisation which would always get voted down, the other is to privatise services and less government run hospitals etc. For example the Tories started selling off certain care to companies like Virgin. Blair introduced Tuition fees as well and wasted billions by getting private companies to build Hosiptals at a HUGE cost to the taxpayer in the long term.
> 
> Perhaps Margaret Thatcher herself might phrase it better:
> 
> ...


I always think of Tony Blair as the British Bill and Hillary Clinton, the politician that moved their party to the right. that's probably a good description to describe Blair to non-Brits who aren't familiar with UK politics.



Draykorinee said:


> Another fine day for Boris Johnson, I didn't think things could be worse than under May but I was proven wrong.


Boris really has been causing a wind of change:



> Jeremy Corbyn, the scourge of bankers and avowed opponent of capitalism, is winning support from unexpected new quarters: two of the biggest global banks operating in the City of London are warming to the Labour leader.
> 
> Unlikely as it may seem, he is now seen as the lesser of two evils by analysts at Citibank and Deutsche Bank, respectively American and German titans of the financial system.
> 
> ...


https://www.telegraph.co.uk/busines...-brexit-say-investment-banks-anti-capitalist/

You know you've fuck up bad when you have City of London bankers and Jeremy Corbyn agreeing against you! :lol :lol :lol


----------



## Chris JeriG.O.A.T (Jun 17, 2014)

Wasn't the Brexit vote pretty close? Shouldn't they have another vote now that they know the catastrophe they're about to bring upon themselves? The way I heard it is that people were basically tricked by a propaganda machine.


----------



## Hangman (Feb 3, 2017)

Chris JeriG.O.A.T said:


> Wasn't the Brexit vote pretty close? Shouldn't they have another vote now that they know the catastrophe they're about to bring upon themselves? The way I heard it is that people were basically tricked by a propaganda machine.


It doesn't mater if you win by one vote or a million votes. 

The outcome was to leave.

We cant keep having votes until people get their own way. That's not how democracy works.


----------



## Seb (Jun 13, 2007)

BRITLAND said:


> Sir Keir Starmer or Hilary Benn would be my picks to takeover the Labour leadership asap. While both aren't the most charismatic people on earth I feel Britons generally want a Prime Minister who is straight to the point and down to business (the complete opposite of Boris).


Boris is about as straight to the point as you can get, whether you agree with him or not it's clear what his message is.

"I'd rather be dead in a ditch than delay Brexit".

Meanwhile Labour are still all over the place:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1169736475904217093


Chris JeriG.O.A.T said:


> Wasn't the Brexit vote pretty close? *Shouldn't they have another vote now that they know the catastrophe they're about to bring upon themselves?* The way I heard it is that people were basically tricked by a propaganda machine.


The irony of your post is this is what Remainer propaganda has been ever since they lost the vote. No-one really knows what's going to happen in the long term.

It's also insincere and insulting to imply people were tricked/idiots and would "make the right decision if we try again".


----------



## Draykorinee (Aug 4, 2015)

Hangman said:


> It doesn't mater if you win by one vote or a million votes.
> 
> The outcome was to leave.
> 
> We cant keep having votes until people get their own way. That's not how democracy works.


The outcome was not to leave with a no deal, because a no deal was not suggested by any respected leave campaign. We know why leave voters don't want a vote, because they know a no deal Brexit would fail by a million miles and so the only option would be to remain or accept a soft Brexit, so they just claim like a bunch of morons that its not democratic to give the people a chance to vote, even though a vote is the very nature of democracy.

Also useful to note that these same people are now also saying we need yet another General Election just so they can force through a No Deal that would never have won a popular vote. Laughable positions from leavers.

If there was another vote, I think it would be close between a soft Brexit and remain but we all know full well a no deal Brexit would get trounced. Personally, as a remain voter I'd take a soft Brexit right now and then figure out how to leave harder later on down the line, if only to remove pests like Fromage and Rees Mogg from the political sphere.



Seb said:


> It's also insincere and insulting to imply people were tricked/idiots and would "make the right decision if we try again".


Its objective fact that people were tricked and lied to, you can sugar coat it all you like, people were lied to by the leave campaign consistently, saying otherwise is entirely disingenuous and I think you know that.

Whether remain would win the re-vote I don't know, I still think theres a chance it would lose, but you and I know a no deal brexit would not even come close to being the preferred choice and if its the only option then remain would walk a vote.

That's the disingenuous nature of leave voters.


----------



## Hangman (Feb 3, 2017)

You are aware the EU is just basically a cult now right? The only way to get out is a hard no deal.

Once out, the UK can say trade with us or good luck fighting the Russians by yourself.

Remember they need us more than we need them.


----------



## Draykorinee (Aug 4, 2015)

Hangman said:


> You are aware the EU is just basically a cult now right? The only way to get out is a hard no deal.
> 
> Once out, the UK can say trade with us or good luck fighting the Russians by yourself.
> 
> Remember they need us more than we need them.


The first is just a joke, I don't pay any attention to ad hominem bullshit.

The second is nonsense Ruskiphobia, why are they going to fight Russians? This isn't the 1970s. They can trade with us even if there is a no deal Brexit...What are you even trying to say?

Third part is also untrue, objectively, seeing as they don't give a fuck about a no deal Brexit or they'd try and renegotiate.



Chris JeriG.O.A.T said:


> Wasn't the Brexit vote pretty close? Shouldn't they have another vote now that they know the catastrophe they're about to bring upon themselves? The way I heard it is that people were basically tricked by a propaganda machine.


Don't listen to people like Seb or me, just take a look for yourself.

https://infacts.org/vote-leave-lying-facebook-ads-look-even-worse-2-years-on/

https://www.newstatesman.com/politi...e-leave-s-lies-we-must-hold-second-referendum

https://ethicaljournalismnetwork.org/resources/publications/ethics-in-the-news/media-lies-and-brexit

https://www.vox.com/world/2019/1/15/18184172/brexit-vote-what-happens-next-theresa-may

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cA3XTYfzd1I

There are more, but of course you only need a few sources to see how full of shit the leave campaign was.

Now, some people were going to vote leave regardless, so leave didn't only win based on lies, thats not my point at all. But they sure did help.



> Some proponents of a second Brexit referendum argue that the first was problematic because of the huge number of demonstrably false claims made during the course of the campaign.
> 
> Here are some of the most notorious and patently false claims made by both sides of the debate.
> 
> ...


^ Both sides were lying as well, just so there's no bias.


----------



## Seb (Jun 13, 2007)

Draykorinee said:


> Its objective fact that people were tricked and lied to, you can sugar coat it all you like, people were lied to by the leave campaign consistently, saying otherwise is entirely disingenuous and I think you know that.


People are tricked and lied to all the time. It's part of Politics. There was (and still is) lies and propaganda on both sides of the debate.

There's no justification for having another vote.



> Whether remain would win the re-vote I don't know, I still think theres a chance it would lose, but you and *I know a no deal brexit would not even come close to being the preferred choice and if its the only option then remain would walk a vote.*
> 
> That's the disingenuous nature of leave voters.


You don't know this, no-one does.

People "knew" the public wouldn't vote to leave, which is why Cameron called the referendum in the first place. Look how that turned out.

FWIW I was leaning remain before the referendum but didn't vote as I could see benefits to staying and leaving. Now though having had the vote, we need to be leaving.


----------



## Chris JeriG.O.A.T (Jun 17, 2014)

Draykorinee said:


> Don't listen to people like Seb or me, just take a look for yourself.
> 
> https://infacts.org/vote-leave-lying-facebook-ads-look-even-worse-2-years-on/
> 
> ...


I've seen those £350M bus ads a bunch and I've never been to the UK and rarely pay attention to your guys news, I'm sure the less discerning members of your country, seeing shit like that every day, made up their minds without ever considering the downsides. 

Europeans always seem so smart and advanced compared to the dumb ******** here that I sometimes forget you guys have stupid and gullible people too.


----------



## Draykorinee (Aug 4, 2015)

Seb said:


> Draykorinee said:
> 
> 
> > Its objective fact that people were tricked and lied to, you can sugar coat it all you like, people were lied to by the leave campaign consistently, saying otherwise is entirely disingenuous and I think you know that.
> ...


On the basis of lies? No, of course not. On the basis that not one person voted for a no deal Brexit because no leave campaign sold Brexit as a no deal scenario, then 100% yes.

People voted based on a deal scenario, the one sold by the leave campaign, the one that would see us financially better off (lies) not substantially worse off which is the only outcome of a no deal.


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## FSL (Mar 4, 2014)

The will of the people...

Only applicable when it suits the Brexiteers agenda. A referendum is the manifestation of the will of the people, a general election is also a manifestation of the will of the people. 

TM decided to have a snap election, one she said we would never have (will of people down the drain once) so she could gain the necessary number of mps to force her plan through parliament. It backfired.

Now Boris wants another one (will of the people down the drain - PART 2). So he can get the parliamentary arithmetic that suits his agenda.

A very funny notion of democracy. How many GE are we going to hold until the Brexiteers get the ideal distribution of mps that suits better their plans?

We could have been out by now. There was a deal on the table, agreed by a PM legitimated by the WILL of people but as this country is being held hostage by a few far right-wing politicians we will only come out until the likes of people like Farage get into parliament and play their little dictator act on all of us.


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## Ashley Whittle (Sep 13, 2016)

I'm an undecided voter (didn't vote, would next time). But the way that Parliament has failed to leave on the instruction of the British people has me concerned, because I think this is more a matter of democracy now than leave or remain. Whether or not they think Brexit would be damaging to the economy, which is just a theory not a factual statement, is irrelevant - their job is to implement the instruction of the majority who voted in the referendum. I'm pretty sure that if things were doom and gloom as predicted, after a few years we'd be back in the EU anyway.
I've also noticed that those who wish to leave the EU with some sort of a deal are mostly pro remain, which suggests to me that this scenario wouldn't really be leaving at all if we were to stay closely assigned with most of the European institutions (hence why the MEPs are pushing for this option).


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## Ninja Hedgehog (Mar 22, 2018)

Hangman said:


> You are aware the EU is just basically a cult now right? The only way to get out is a hard no deal.
> 
> Once out, the UK can say trade with us or good luck fighting the Russians by yourself.
> 
> Remember they need us more than we need them.












Why am I not the slightest bit surprised that this is your stance.....


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## Draykorinee (Aug 4, 2015)

Drivel.

The referendum was non binding, it's not their job to leave based on that, they should have done of course, the majority voted. But they are not beholden to non binding advisary referendums, even Fromage said the referendum was advisary only. 

MPs are elected to ensure the country doesn't go over a cliff as well, so let's not pretend that one over rules the other, the reality is every agency study ever done shows a no deal will make this country worse off economically, and not just a small amount. Stop trying to spin things.

The idea you think that an MP should just go through with something they think would be a disaster is typical of someone who doesn't vote but then puts in an opinion once its done.



Ninja Hedgehog said:


> Hangman said:
> 
> 
> > You are aware the EU is just basically a cult now right? The only way to get out is a hard no deal.
> ...


Who is hangman? Never heard of her before.


----------



## Nothing Finer (Apr 12, 2017)

Chris JeriG.O.A.T said:


> Wasn't the Brexit vote pretty close? Shouldn't they have another vote now that they know the catastrophe they're about to bring upon themselves? The way I heard it is that people were basically tricked by a propaganda machine.


People who support Brexit don't want that because they are pretty sure they would lose. Rather than saying so they pretend that having a vote would somehow be more democratic.

In reality, of course, over 3 years have passed, people know more today, if your priority is giving the people what they want of course you'd ask them again to make sure. There's no reason not to.



Hangman said:


> It doesn't mater if you win by one vote or a million votes.
> 
> The outcome was to leave.
> 
> We cant keep having votes until people get their own way. That's not how democracy works.


That is *exactly* how democracy works. You keep trying until you convince enough people that you are right, then you win at the ballot box. If you lose you keep trying, and then have another go. 

Here are some examples from the UK.

At this very moment Boris Johnson is seeking an election because he didn't like the result of the 2017 election, in which the UK voted in MPs for a 5 year term.

The 2017 election was itself called because Theresa May didn't like the result of the 2015 election - again, where the people of the UK elected MPs to a 5 year fixed term - and wanted to get her own way.

The 2016 referendum was called because Eurosceptics didn't like the result of the 1975 referendum.

In 1973 the people of Northern Ireland had a referendum on whether to join Ireland or remain in the United Kingdom. In 1998 the Good Friday Agreement was signed, which guarantees a further referendum on the same subject to the people of Northern Ireland, in the event that Irish Nationalists get a majority.

Look at any other country in the world that has referendums regularly. Many of them has had multiple referendums on the same subject, including Switzerland, California, Ireland, Denmark and Portugal. These are democratic countries.

The idea that once a vote is taken that vote must stand even if people change their minds is propaganda invented by Brexiteers. Nothing could be further from democracy than telling people they cannot change their minds.


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## Ninja Hedgehog (Mar 22, 2018)

Draykorinee said:


> Who is hangman? Never heard of her before.


Used to be called Ultron


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## Nothing Finer (Apr 12, 2017)

Hangman said:


> You are aware the EU is just basically a cult now right? The only way to get out is a hard no deal.


I agree with you that the only way you can get out of the EU in a meaningful way is to leave with a hard No Deal and make drastic economic changes that make reintegration too painful to be worth it. Otherwise the UK will remain to closely in the EU's orbit and be required to take on too many of its rules, and it would make sense for the UK to simply rejoin.

I don't think those changes are worth it to make, I think the UK is much better off heading Europe than competing with it and reorganising the economy will be extremely painful, but you're right that if you want to leave long term you need to go hard or don't bother.




> Once out, the UK can say trade with us or good luck fighting the Russians by yourself.
> 
> Remember they need us more than we need them.


On this issue you are very badly misinformed. Please read this and take it on board because you're making yourself look like an idiot.

Militarily the UK will remain in NATO, along with almost every country in the European Union. The European Union won't be "fighting the Russians by yourself", if Russia attacks they'll be fighting them alongside the UK, US, and many other non-EU countries.

Responses to Russian aggression which don't demand a military response, such as the chemical weapons attack in Salisbury, the invasion of Crimea, or the Polonium attack in London, are responded to via economic measures, not military. The EU's economy is much larger than the UK's, it can continue to retailiate against Russian aggression and damage Russia in a way that the UK alone cannot.

Moreover, an isolated UK is much more vulnerable to Russian aggression. If the UK does go hard on Brexit it alienates its European allies, and the US's policy is "only America first, America first", they aren't going to sacrifice anything economically to aid the UK, and if the UK refuses to stand alongside Europe against Russia Europe will do the same when the UK needs their help. 

The EU is weaker for losing Britain, there is no question about that. They never wanted Brexit and they will still let the UK stop it if it wishes, but proportionally the UK loses far more for enacting a hard Brexit than the EU.


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## Draykorinee (Aug 4, 2015)

Ninja Hedgehog said:


> Draykorinee said:
> 
> 
> > Who is hangman? Never heard of her before.
> ...


Fuck, if I'd known that I wouldn't have bothered. Lost cause.



Nothing Finer said:


> The EU is weaker for losing Britain, there is no question about that. They never wanted Brexit and they will still let the UK stop it if it wishes, but proportionally the UK loses far more for enacting a hard Brexit than the EU.


Yup, we're both weaker for it, but only a seriously deluded Brexiteer would suggest that a no deal would do more harm to the EU than it would us.


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## JasonLives (Aug 20, 2008)

Nothing Finer said:


> That is *exactly* how democracy works. You keep trying until you convince enough people that you are right, then you win at the ballot box. If you lose you keep trying, and then have another go.


So pretty much, if one side doesnt win they should never accept the vote but instead do all they can do work against it? Throw sticks in the political wheel every chance they get?

So lets say there is another vote, the remain side wins with like 55/45. Then what happends?

Political chaos for another 3 years until they do another vote?


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## Nothing Finer (Apr 12, 2017)

JasonLives said:


> So pretty much, if one side doesnt win they should never accept the vote but instead do all they can do work against it? Throw sticks in the political wheel every chance they get?


Yes, of course. That's how it works. When a party loses the election they didn't disband and say "Well, we lost, time to go home", they keep fighting for what they believe in.



> So lets say there is another vote, the remain side wins with like 55/45. Then what happends?


The UK revokes Article 50 and enjoys a return to normalcy.



> Political chaos for another 3 years until they do another vote?


I don't think there would be chaos. People who want to leave the European Union would be unhappy, but there'd be nothing like a Withdrawal Agreement or fighting over various versions of Brexit.

If they want to campaign for another referendum they have every right to do so. I don't think there would be much any public appetite to go through the Article 50 process again, but if that's what the people want, that's what they should get.


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## Draykorinee (Aug 4, 2015)

JasonLives said:


> So pretty much, if one side doesnt win they should never accept the vote but instead do all they can do work against it? Throw sticks in the political wheel every chance they get?
> 
> So lets say there is another vote, the remain side wins with like 55/45. Then what happens?
> 
> Political chaos for another 3 years until they do another vote?


The problem is, the vote WAS accepted, but the Government in power were unable to achieve the target and now things have changed so considerably that we're heading for something that no campaign had anticipated.

If Remain had won by 52/48 I would have expected another referendum in about 5 years time or if things within the EU became progressively worse, and we all KNOW Fromage and UKIP would have pushed for another referendum if it was so close. Fromage even hinted as such.



> There could be unstoppable demand for a re-run of the EU referendum if Remain wins by a narrow margin on 23 June, UKIP leader Nigel Farage has said.
> 
> Mr Farage said he believed the Leave campaign were on course for victory.


So, I'm sorry, but thats how democracy works, its certainly more democratic than going through with something that was never voted on. Leave means Leave is probably the most bogus mantra ever created, almost as bad as having a referendum as complex as Brexit and making it a binary yes/no.

We've had 3 years of chaos, and the chaos of a no deal is incoming unless there is a course change.


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## Chris JeriG.O.A.T (Jun 17, 2014)

What's going to happen with that Northern Ireland border with a no deal Brexit? Do they go back to the car bomb-y days?


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## Seb (Jun 13, 2007)

Draykorinee said:


> On the basis of lies? No, of course not. On the basis that not one person voted for a no deal Brexit because no leave campaign sold Brexit as a no deal scenario, then 100% yes.
> 
> People voted based on a deal scenario, the one sold by the leave campaign, the one that would see us financially better off (lies) not substantially worse off which is the only outcome of a no deal.


You seem to think you know for certain why people voted the way they did and exactly what happens when we leave - "not one person", "100% yes" or "the only outcome". No-one knows exactly why every person voted the way they did, and nobody knows exactly the long term implications of leaving are with or without a deal. It's completely uncharted territory - and it rightly scares a lot of people (particularly remain voters). Plenty of people probably voted for a clean break/no deal Brexit - we know who some of them are so saying "not one person voted for a no deal" is complete nonsense. Would agree that leaving with no deal is likely a bad idea particularly short-term but that's just my instincts, no-one actually knows how things are going to play out long term. We heard all the same apocalyptic rhetoric when we avoided joining the Euro.

Not sure about you but I don't remember the withdrawal agreement being a major part of the Brexit narrative from either side at the time before the debate, so saying people did/didn't vote for a deal doesn't hold much weight to me. People just voted to Leave or Stay - and the narrative was all about trade, immigration, sovereignty, the economy.

Also, we have a deal scenario.

Parliament has rejected it 3 times. We could have left the EU already, with a deal - the "only deal" as we keep hearing from EU.

Parliament has blocked the "only deal", they've blocked no deal, now they're about to block a General Election. This is a heavily pro-remain parliament that voted for both the referendum and then to invoke the result of the referendum.

Corbyn running away from an election after demanding one for 2 years is the absolute peak of hypocrisy and embarrassment.

If there was to be another referendum, because Parliament are clearly at a deadlock and determined to frustrate the process, have one between deal and no deal.



Nothing Finer said:


> That is *exactly* how democracy works. You keep trying until you convince enough people that you are right, then you win at the ballot box. If you lose you keep trying, and then have another go.
> 
> Here are some examples from the UK.
> 
> ...


In any of those examples, was there another vote/referendum before the result of the first referendum had even been implemented?

That's the problem here.

It's not democratic to ignore the result of a referendum and call another one.

People are certainly allowed to change their minds - have another referendum with the same question in 10 years time if necessary. Or wait 40 years, like the example you gave above.


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## Nothing Finer (Apr 12, 2017)

Seb said:


> In any of those examples, was there another vote/referendum before the result of the first referendum had even been implemented?


Yes. The 2015 election was for MPs to a five year term, they did not serve a five year term, they were cut off less than half way through.

In terms of referendums, the other two nationwide referendums in the UK, and the NI and Scotland referendums for that matter, resulted in a win for the status quo. That's not a result that's "implemented" as such, so it's not really comparable to a vote to undertake a process which takes many years.

For examples from other countries, here's one from Switzerland of a referendum being rerun.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-47879777

Is Switzerland a democracy?


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## Strike Force (Sep 14, 2015)

I generally follow politics very closely but let the neverending Brexit saga get away from me. Does anyone have a definitive (NOT GODDAMN WIKIPEDIA) account of the whole ridiculous series of events that can catch me up quickly? Every article about it in _The Economist_ feels like it picks up with the reader already having a solid understanding of the back story.


----------



## Seb (Jun 13, 2007)

Nothing Finer said:


> Yes. The 2015 election was for MPs to a five year term, they did not serve a five year term, they were cut off less than half way through.


Not a good comparison. The comparison would be those MP's not being allowed to take their seats and the vote being re-run. Is that a good comparison? Not really, which is why trying to compare the two when arguing what's democratic isn't a good argument anyway.

They were also elected under the provision that an election can be called earlier if called for and then passed by the MP's themselves. MP's can reject an early election and serve a five year term - which is what is happening at the moment with Boris.

Also, if we're going to use 'terms', then the 2016 referendum to leave the EU is on a permanent basis. Is it undemocratic for us to leave following the result in 2016, and then have another referendum in 40 years time? Of course it isn't.



> In terms of referendums, the other two nationwide referendums in the UK, and the NI and Scotland referendums for that matter, resulted in a win for the status quo. That's not a result that's "implemented" as such, so it's not really comparable to a vote to undertake a process which takes many years.


It's not an ideal comparison but yes, the results were abided by.



> For examples from other countries, here's one from Switzerland of a referendum being rerun.
> 
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-47879777
> 
> Is Switzerland a democracy?


I'd argue that's un-democratic but it's not really a comparable issue.

What's your opinion on this? Do you want another Leave vs Remain referendum?


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## Draykorinee (Aug 4, 2015)

Seb said:


> You seem to think you know for certain why people voted the way they did and exactly what happens when we leave - "not one person", "100% yes" or "the only outcome".


No deal was not on the cards, no deal was not discussed so in my opinion, and thats all it is, no deal was not voted for. In the same way that when I voted for Remain I didn't vote to remain but with certain caveats attached. Remain means remain is as stupid as leave means leave, because a binary vote on a complex issue is stupid.

You aren't wrong in that I am quite heavily up my own arse on what I think people voted for, I also sprinkle in hyperbole but I still think most of what I say is grounded in reality.

The deal was voted down by leave and remain MPs, it was a bipartisan move because the deal was bad, this isn't about remain MPs stalling or stopping Brexit, its about the Government getting a bad deal and then failing to improve it. 3 whole years and we've basically gone to "well, 52% of those who voted wanted out so lets just get out and fuck the consequences because we're too inept to go do anything better." No one should be happy with that and just going, well leave did mean leave.

Corbyn running away from a GE is the right move regardless of hypocrisy, I don't like Corbyn and I want him gone so I'm not going to defend him much but he's doing no more or less hypocritical politicking as Bojo and his band of clowns, all saying we won't prorogue, then proroguing anyway.

A GE now will give a false mandate to whomever wins because most people don't vote on single issues, so BoJo winning leads to a no deal even though a large number of remain voters will vote Tory because they can't stand Corbyn not because they want a no deal. 

By the opposite token Corbyn/Lib Dems winning isn't a mandate to stop Brexit because there will be leave voters who will vote Corbyn/lib dems because they don't want a no deal because they _do_ vote on single issues.

The problem with a deal/no deal vote is it disenfranchises remain voters, I don't see how that helps, why not just reopen it entirely and see what happens? We know why every Brexiteer doesn't want that, 

This might be the fire that lights the youth to go vote, 100,000+ people registered to vote in a week, mostly young. Its an interesting time politically.



Strike Force said:


> I generally follow politics very closely but let the neverending Brexit saga get away from me. Does anyone have a definitive (NOT GODDAMN WIKIPEDIA) account of the whole ridiculous series of events that can catch me up quickly? Every article about it in _The Economist_ feels like it picks up with the reader already having a solid understanding of the back story.


I can summarise.



> Do you want me to cook a meal for you to eat? Yes/No
> 
> Yes.
> 
> Okay here's a fecal pie, now eat it because you said you wanted me to cook a meal for you to eat.


I jest ofc, but Brexit is probably the most complex political saga in the last decade I'm not sure a whistelstop tour can work. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-32810887

Can try this, the BBC is notoriously pro remain and pro leave depending on which side you're on so some see it as biased. It doesn't paint as bad a picture as this whole saga has been though.



Nothing Finer said:


> For examples from other countries, here's one from Switzerland of a referendum being rerun.


This sounds oddly familiar



> But the supreme court has now voided the result on the grounds that voters were not given full information, and the vote must be re-run.
> 
> During the referendum campaign, the Swiss government told voters just 80,000 of married couples were paying more tax than couples living together.
> 
> The true figure was almost half a million, the government later said.


Knda like the 350 million figure for the NHS, or the 77 million Turks invading the UK right?


----------



## Nothing Finer (Apr 12, 2017)

Seb said:


> Not a good comparison. The comparison would be those MP's not being allowed to take their seats and the vote being re-run. Is that a good comparison? Not really, which is why trying to compare the two when arguing what's democratic isn't a good argument anyway.
> 
> They were also elected under the provision that an election can be called earlier if called for and then passed by the MP's themselves. MP's can reject an early election and serve a five year term - which is what is happening at the moment with Boris.


You accept though, that people voted MPs to a 5 year term and they did not serve a 5 year term?

Yeah, and the referendum went through on the basis that it was advisory. It was always going to be up to MPs how it was implemented, and indeed if it was implemented. Parliament is a sovereign body, it always had the right to call a referendum if it saw fit, just as it has the right to call another election. 



> Also, if we're going to use 'terms', then the 2016 referendum to leave the EU is on a permanent basis. Is it undemocratic for us to leave following the result in 2016, and then have another referendum in 40 years time? Of course it isn't.


Not sure what you're driving at there. I don't think it's undemocratic to have another vote before a term's up.



> What's your opinion on this? Do you want another Leave vs Remain referendum?


I think democratically you have no choice but to have one. By following the referendum result of 2016 without asking the people of 2019 or 2020 what they think you run a very real risk of taking the UK out of the EU against the will of its citizens. That cannot be called democracy in any real sense. Honouring a referendum from years ago when people have changed their minds is absurd, and there's no good reason to risk it when you can simply ask them again.

Have a legally binding referendum with a well defined version of Brexit on it, be that deal or no deal.

If people still want to leave then they get what they want. The UK leaves and leaves exactly how its people want to, whether that's deal or no deal.

If people no longer want to leave then the UK is prevented from being taken out of the EU against the will of the people.


----------



## Seb (Jun 13, 2007)

Draykorinee said:


> No deal was not on the cards, no deal was not discussed so in my opinion, and thats all it is, no deal was not voted for. In the same way that when I voted for Remain I didn't vote to remain but with certain caveats attached. Remain means remain is as stupid as leave means leave, because a binary vote on a complex issue is stupid.


That's the main point that we differ on - there was no mention of leaving with or without a withdrawal agreement, the argument was mostly centred around trade.

A lot of people argue no deal is the "cleanest" Brexit as it fulfils most of the main points of the vote - i.e. leaving the customs union, single market, ECOJ, control over borders etc...

Of course there are likely downsides to leaving without a deal, don't disagree with you there. A big problem was the Cameron government not preparing at all because they couldn't comprehend losing. He was smart enough to realise this and immediately fucked off into obscurity.



> You aren't wrong in that I am quite heavily up my own arse on what I think people voted for, I also sprinkle in hyperbole but I still think most of what I say is grounded in reality.


I keep an eye on this thread and agree with most points you make. Brexit just seems to generate extreme rhetoric from both sides. It's a big step into the unknown.



> The deal was voted down by leave and remain MPs, it was a bipartisan move because the deal was bad, this isn't about remain MPs stalling or stopping Brexit, its about the Government getting a bad deal and then failing to improve it. 3 whole years and we've basically gone to "well, 52% of those who voted wanted out so lets just get out and fuck the consequences because we're too inept to go do anything better." No one should be happy with that and just going, well leave did mean leave.


Agreed the deal was for the most part terrible, just pointing out we do have one in place as a no deal alternative, which a lot of people think is a worse outcome.



> Corbyn running away from a GE is the right move regardless of hypocrisy, I don't like Corbyn and I want him gone so I'm not going to defend him much but he's doing no more or less hypocritical politicking as Bojo and his band of clowns, all saying we won't prorogue, then proroguing anyway.


It's the right move short term because he'd lose, it's the wrong move long term because people will now trust him even less after having his bluff called. He'll lose either way :lol



> A GE now will give a false mandate to whomever wins because most people don't vote on single issues, so BoJo winning leads to a no deal even though a large number of remain voters will vote Tory because they can't stand Corbyn not because they want a no deal.
> 
> By the opposite token Corbyn/Lib Dems winning isn't a mandate to stop Brexit because there will be leave voters who will vote Corbyn/lib dems because they don't want a no deal because they _do_ vote on single issues.


Fair point as I think a lot of the middle class will flatly never vote for Corbyn regardless of being Leave or Remain, but Parliament is deadlocked, both leaders have lost the support of a lot of their own MP's.



> The problem with a deal/no deal vote is it disenfranchises remain voters, I don't see how that helps, why not just reopen it entirely and see what happens? We know why every Brexiteer doesn't want that
> 
> This might be the fire that lights the youth to go vote, 100,000+ people registered to vote in a week, mostly young. Its an interesting time politically.


I wouldn't be a fan of a no deal / deal vote, but if you're putting it "back to the people", that should be the option.

Re-opening the vote in any capacity would be purely based on Parliament/Government not enacting the original referendum. That's why Corbyn did want an election, and why Johnson does want an election. I think Corbyn backs an election if May's still in power. Boris appeals to a portion of Leave voters, May didn't really appeal to anyone. It's a giant mess.


----------



## Draykorinee (Aug 4, 2015)

I was a remain voter who accepted the result, begrudgingly and with salty tears, and just wanted it to go through smoothly. But now its a disaster and its looking like a no deal I am getting more hyperbolic and more aggressive in my approach to the issue. So at times I need to reel it back in and not let my passions overtake my mind. Fundamentally no deal, according to all the independant studies, is going to screw me and my family over, so I have a vested interest in whats going on.

I just find it funny that Bojo, a man who ran away from being party leader when it needed a leave PM is now calling Corbyn a chicken.


----------



## Seb (Jun 13, 2007)

Nothing Finer said:


> You accept though, that people voted MPs to a 5 year term and they did not serve a 5 year term?


People vote MP's to the house of commons, the default term is 5 years but there's always been the provision that snap elections can be called at the behest of those very MP's. All voters are aware of this (or at least should be) before they vote.



> Yeah, and the referendum went through on the basis that it was advisory. It was always going to be up to MPs how it was implemented, and indeed if it was implemented. Parliament is a sovereign body, it always had the right to call a referendum if it saw fit, just as it has the right to call another election.


I don't disagree it's up to Parliament to implement the result, the problem is they haven't.



> Not sure what you're driving at there. I don't think it's undemocratic to have another vote before a term's up.


Neither do I, it's the same logic as having another GE before the end of the 5 year term. The 'term' for leaving the EU is indefinite/permanent, but it's not anti-democratic to have another vote _after_ we leave - e.g. in 40 years time from your example.



> I think democratically you have no choice but to have one. By following the referendum result of 2016 without asking the people of 2019 or 2020 what they think you run a very real risk of taking the UK out of the EU against the will of its citizens. That cannot be called democracy in any real sense. Honouring a referendum from years ago when people have changed their minds is absurd.
> 
> Have a legally binding referendum with a well defined version of Brexit on it, be that deal or no deal.
> 
> ...


The problem is then what's on the ballot paper? Deal vs No Deal Vs Remain? Instantly splits the Leave vote.

2019/2020 is a different time to 2016 of course, but the only reason it's taken this long to sort out is because a Remain dominated parliament hasn't allowed the UK to leave yet.

What about people who voted in 2016 who are no longer able to vote? Should their opinion now just be disregarded?

I do see your argument, but the tactic of dissatisfied remain politicians (particularly the SNP) was always going to be to make things as difficult as possible / delays because they didn't get the result they wanted in the hope we might end up staying. This doesn't just apply to us - the EU didn't want us to leave either. 

What happens if Leave does lose another vote? Likely mass civil unrest.


----------



## Nothing Finer (Apr 12, 2017)

Seb said:


> People vote MP's to the house of commons, the default term is 5 years but there's always been the provision that snap elections can be called at the behest of those very MP's. All voters are aware of this (or at least should be) before they vote.
> 
> I don't disagree it's up to Parliament to implement the result, the problem is they haven't.


Yeah, and there was always the provision in the referendum that it was advisory and that Parliament could do whatever it wished with the advice.



> The problem is then what's on the ballot paper? Deal vs No Deal Vs Remain? Instantly splits the Leave vote.


It doesn't have to split the vote, it depends how you ask the question. FPTP is a very poor way of conducting a vote of this nature, you'd use an alternative method.

The simplest would be to have two referendums a week or so apart. In the first referendum the people are asked Deal Vs. No Deal Vs. Remain, when the results are counter the least popular option is eliminated. The second referendum is one week later between the two surviving options.

I'd agree that you couldn't have Deal Vs. No Deal Vs. Remain if you used FPTP.



> 2019/2020 is a different time to 2016 of course, but the only reason it's taken this long to sort out is because a Remain dominated parliament hasn't allowed the UK to leave yet.


It's taken this long to sort out because leaving the EU is an immensely complicated exercise and the way in which the UK leaves was far, far too vague in the referendum. This has inevitably lead to infighting over how it's done. 

It should be noted that in the last Parliamentary election over 50% of people voted for parties which ruled out No Deal.



> What about people who voted in 2016 who are no longer able to vote? Should their opinion now just be disregarded?


Yes, the dead cannot be allowed to rule over the living.

What about the people who have turned 18 since the referendum. What about their opinions? 



> I do see your argument, but the tactic of dissatisfied remain politicians (particularly the SNP) was always going to be to make things as difficult as possible / delays because they didn't get the result they wanted in the hope we might end up staying. This doesn't just apply to us - the EU didn't want us to leave either.


Forgive me if I'm wrong, but it seems like you're saying here that you want to risk the UK leaving the EU against the wishes of the people of the UK to punish MPs for not acting as you'd like. That doesn't seem very democratic.



> What happens if Leave does lose another vote? Likely mass civil unrest.


People have a right to protest.


----------



## FSL (Mar 4, 2014)

Someone said here that no one can know 100% why people that voted to leave did so. But you can easily point out why based on the leave propaganda: 

- UK taxpayers are being robbed by the EU, 

- The UK had enough of bailing out countries like Ireland or Portugal,

- Turkey is going to join the EU sooner rather than later and the Turkish will flood in the UK,

- There's a never-ending income of migrants coming into the EU (Nigel Farage Poster)

- The UK will have a better deal after leaving the EU than the one it has as a member of the EU,

- The EU immigrants are stealing jobs from UK natives, as well as benefits,

- The EU needs the UK more than the UK need the EU,

- The EU is just another form of the Soviet Union,

- Because Cameron needs to be proved wrong,

- Because we pay billions to the EU and that money should be invested in education, police force and of course the NHS, (slogan on a bus)

- Because the UK is not sovereign,

In other words, EU is cancer, the EU immigrants need to be treated as a case of pest control and the UK is being held back from being the most powerful force in the planet.


----------



## UniversalGleam (Jan 30, 2017)

Draykorinee said:


> Fundamentally no deal, according to all the independant studies, is going to screw me


just to point out, all the "independent studies" also said that not joining the euro would be disastrous for the UK and they got that completely wrong. It was possibly one of the best decisions they have made in recent times. 

no-one knows what will happen. Europe could collapse in a decade and everyone will be saying "thank fuck we left". The UK may also regret leaving. Point is though, no-one can factually say it will be terrible until it happens.

its one of those things where if anyone says "this will happen", they are simply lying, its only a possibility. No deal should never be taken off the table in any case. It needs to be there as a threat. If we say "don't worry, we won't leave without a deal" europe will simply sit back and demand everything.


----------



## Nothing Finer (Apr 12, 2017)

UniversalGleam said:


> *just to point out, all the "independent studies" also said that not joining the euro would be disastrous for the UK and they got that completely wrong. It was possibly one of the best decisions they have made in recent times. *
> 
> no-one knows what will happen. Europe could collapse in a decade and everyone will be saying "thank fuck we left". The UK may also regret leaving. Point is though, no-one can factually say it will be terrible until it happens.
> 
> its one of those things where if anyone says "this will happen", they are simply lying, its only a possibility. No deal should never be taken off the table in any case. It needs to be there as a threat. If we say "don't worry, we won't leave without a deal" europe will simply sit back and demand everything.


Which independent studies said this? What was their reasoning, methodology etc.?


----------



## Seb (Jun 13, 2007)

Nothing Finer said:


> Yeah, and there was always the provision in the referendum that it was advisory and that Parliament could do whatever it wished with the advice.


Cameron made it abundantly clear the result would be implemented.

MP's then overwhelmingly voted to invoke Article 50.



> It doesn't have to split the vote, it depends how you ask the question. FPTP is a very poor way of conducting a vote of this nature, you'd use an alternative method.
> 
> The simplest would be to have two referendums a week or so apart. In the first referendum the people are asked Deal Vs. No Deal Vs. Remain, when the results are counter the least popular option is eliminated. The second referendum is one week later between the two surviving options.
> 
> I'd agree that you couldn't have Deal Vs. No Deal Vs. Remain if you used FPTP.


Three referendums because Parliament can't make up their minds? :done



> It's taken this long to sort out because leaving the EU is an immensely complicated exercise and the way in which the UK leaves was far, far too vague in the referendum. This has inevitably lead to infighting over how it's done.


We had a 2 year period to negotiate the withdrawal agreement, and did so.

The alternatives are leaving without a deal, or trying to renegotiate another deal. That's assuming the EU are willing to play ball.

What does prolonging the inevitable achieve, besides the UK continuing to pay circa 700 million to the EU each month and millions of EU residents continuing to face uncertainty?



> It should be noted that in the last Parliamentary election over 50% of people voted for parties which ruled out No Deal.


Labour and Conservatives both ran on a ticker of upholding the referendum result and leaving.



> Yes, the dead cannot be allowed to rule over the living.
> 
> What about the people who have turned 18 since the referendum. What about their opinions?


Next time there's a referendum, they can have their say. Just like any other referendum. A good chunk of the country was born after the last referendum and had no say until 2016.

In fact, they might well do soon if we end up having a GE, as it seems likely Lib Dems and Labour are both going to run on a remain ticket.



> Forgive me if I'm wrong, but it seems like you're saying here that you want to risk the UK leaving the EU against the wishes of the people of the UK to punish MPs for not acting as you'd like. That doesn't seem very democratic.


That's not what I was saying at all.

I was saying it was inevitable that some Remain MP's would try and frustrate the process as much as possible in an attempt to grind down the government/parliament/public into reversing the result of the vote. The EU as well were always going to hard ball because they don't want us to leave either, and they also don't want to help encourage other countries to potentially leave (not that it matters if anyone else leaves anyway, unless it's France or Germany).



> People have a right to protest.


Seems very optimistic to think that it would stop at protests if we just ignored the referendum result.


----------



## Nothing Finer (Apr 12, 2017)

Seb said:


> Cameron made it abundantly clear the result would be implemented.
> 
> MP's then overwhelmingly voted to invoke Article 50.


Cameron lied. I don't know if you missed it but he quit the next day.

MPs did vote to invoke Article 50, yes, and one of the provisions of Article 50 is that it can extended, and we later learned it can revoked.



> Three referendums because Parliament can't make up their minds? :done


You could do it with a single referendum using Instant Run Off voting if you want. Or you could just have a straight Brexit Vs. Remain question. The option that commanded over 48% of the public vote obviously has to be on there though.



> We had a 2 year period to negotiate the withdrawal agreement, and did so.
> 
> The alternatives are leaving without a deal, or trying to renegotiate another deal. That's assuming the EU are willing to play ball.
> 
> What does prolonging the inevitable achieve, besides the UK continuing to pay circa 700 million to the EU each month and millions of EU residents continuing to face uncertainty?


It is not inevitable. Remaining in the European Union is an alternative. It's an alternative that over 16 million people voted for. How many people voted for No Deal? How many people voted for the Withdrawal Agreement? 



> Labour and Conservatives both ran on a ticker of upholding the referendum result and leaving.


Labour ran on a ticket of leaving under a deal that gives the exact same benefits as the single market. Over 50% of people voted for parties in favour of the Single Market or remaining completely.



> Next time there's a referendum, they can have their say. Just like any other referendum. A good chunk of the country was born after the last referendum and had no say until 2016.
> 
> In fact, they might well do soon if we end up having a GE, as it seems likely Lib Dems and Labour are both going to run on a remain ticket.



So if people vote for pro-referendum parties and that's what they implement you'll have no problem with it?



> That's not what I was saying at all.
> 
> I was saying it was inevitable that some Remain MP's would try and frustrate the process as much as possible in an attempt to grind down the government/parliament/public into reversing the result of the vote. The EU as well were always going to hard ball because they don't want us to leave either, and they also don't want to help encourage other countries to potentially leave (not that it matters if anyone else leaves anyway, unless it's France or Germany).


You seemed to be implying that it was a reason to deny people a say in a referendum now.



> Seems very optimistic to think that it would stop at protests if we just ignored the referendum result.


The UK cannot deny its people a say on an issue because people would use violence in the event that they are in the minority. That's not democracy, it's mob rule.

The referendum result has clearly not been ignored, as you say, Article 50 was invoked and the UK has spent several years negotiating it. My view is that if the people want to call it off they should be allowed to.

Tell me something, which of the following two statements do you agree with.

Statement 1: If the people of the UK do not want Brexit it should not be forced on them.

Statement 2: If the people of the UK do not want Brexit it should be forced on them because of how they voted in 2016.

There's only one democratic answer there.


----------



## Draykorinee (Aug 4, 2015)

UniversalGleam said:


> Draykorinee said:
> 
> 
> > Fundamentally no deal, according to all the independant studies, is going to screw me
> ...


No, most independent studies showed a positive outcome should they join, at no point did an independant study say it would be disastrous if they didn't join.

There's no real evidence that not joining has been positive or that joining the euro would have had negative consequences. Personally, I'm glad we didn't join the Euro. 

There isn't a single study that shows a positive financial outcome for me with a no deal.

We haven't even left yet and we're starting to see the negative impacts of leaving, let alone without a deal.


----------



## UniversalGleam (Jan 30, 2017)

Draykorinee said:


> *No, most independent studies showed a positive outcome should they join*, at no point did an independant study say it would be disastrous if they didn't join.
> 
> There isn't a single study that shows a positive financial outcome for me with a no deal.
> 
> We haven't even left yet and we're starting to see the negative impacts of leaving, let alone without a deal.


it wasnt a positive outcome so therefore I was a good decision not to join. Still proves my point that the studies shouldnt be treated as factual. 

I guess if the studies presented a good case for joining the euro, we shouldve done and enjoyed the economic crash with everyone else. No-one can predict the future. These studies are not crystal balls.

plus you can talk about negative impacts but there is always going to be downturn before a potential upturn, you cannot expect for everything to be fantastic immediately. That is just unrealistic. There is always going to be that rather difficult and negative space in any change or break up because a new direction and set of deals needs to be established. Its about a longer term outlook, not the next few years.

for example, if I left a well paid job for a lesser paid job with a potential for better money and advancements down the road, I would have to take that knock in the short term to get the long term benefits. You can't just say "oh Im seeing the impacts already".....of course there is an impact but that doesnt mean it is permanent.

if anything, this political chaos and uncertainty has produced more issues than leaving europe itself has so far because no-one knows what the fuck is happening. Everyone is in limbo about what to plan for. The country has stalled and therefore no-one really wants to invest money into it until they know where its going.


----------



## Draykorinee (Aug 4, 2015)

Amber Rudd has resigned. What a calamity, he's lost 25 MPs in a week.


----------



## FSL (Mar 4, 2014)

Draykorinee said:


> Amber Rudd has resigned. What a calamity, he's lost 25 MPs in a week.


That's what you get when you have a little wannabe Dictator as a PM.

Boris is only going to bring chaos to this country. 

The Conservative party can't even get their act together let alone deliver something of the magnitude of Brexit.

I think is pretty obvious that Brexit won't happen anytime soon, actually, I'd be surprised if it happened in 2020.


----------



## Shepard (Apr 30, 2011)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1170429481879842817
The line about their no deal prep being far more involved than actually trying to negotiate the withdrawal agreement will really sting from a major member of his cabinet after this week and Boris' comments about potentially ignoring the Benn bill once it passes Royal Assent despite it literally being law. The chance of actually getting a deal outside of the existing one is so slim anyway the no deal bill is about the only useful thing parliament has done in ages. Labour would be fools to to accept an election before the 31st but it doesn't seem like Corbyn is going to give in to the goading from the Tories, who will probably only get more desperate. It's definitely an interesting couple of months ahead (shame about having to live through it though)

Honestly the sensible thing at this stage would be some kind of compromise and a soft brexit like staying within the customs union whilst leaving the EU. Both extremes are so commited though it's hard to see us arriving at that conclusion (despite no deal at no point of the referendum ever being suggested as a serious possibility)


----------



## FSL (Mar 4, 2014)

The problem is that Brexit started with leaving the EU in a soft, phased and orderly way to burning bridges and cutting all ties. 

Even a soft Brexit or the withdrawal agreement is seen nowadays as "remaining"

You cannot reason with fanatics. I wonder if a hard Brexit was attained if there would be some brexiteers considering declaring war to the EU as a hard Brexit would still be not enough.

WHAT A MESS...


----------



## Draykorinee (Aug 4, 2015)

A 'leaked' internal governmental poll shows the Tories losing. https://twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/status/1171017492065636352


----------



## Tag89 (Jul 27, 2014)

scots judges ruling that bj misled queen liz to postpone parliament

top stuff


----------



## Ninja Hedgehog (Mar 22, 2018)

Tag89 said:


> scots judges ruling that bj misled queen liz to postpone parliament
> 
> top stuff


Does this count as treason??

If so, firing squad??


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## Tag89 (Jul 27, 2014)

Ninja Hedgehog said:


> Does this count as treason??
> 
> If so, firing squad??


liz already has this covered


----------



## NapperX (Jan 2, 2014)

Reservoir Angel said:


> And Parliament is official prorogued and out of session until October, over the opposition of the opposition and the Speaker of the House.
> 
> And the rejoicing has begun from the utter cretinous cunts who think shutting down the UK's democracy is worth it to get us out of the undemocratic EU.
> 
> I fucking hate all of them and am disgusted with my country and it's hideous shitheel government.


U.K is a Monarchy, not a Democracy. Notice how your Queen has the final say in all of this mess?


----------



## UniversalGleam (Jan 30, 2017)

I think you need to research the queen more thoroughly.

The queen for the most part is a waste of time in 2019, she is there as a neutral figurehead but has no real involvement or opinion over what happens in this country. That is down to parliament. 

I believe the queen cannot even dissolve parliament after 2011.

The queen is certainly not the person of power the world seems to believe.


----------



## Reservoir Angel (Aug 7, 2010)

NapperX said:


> U.K is a Monarchy, not a Democracy. Notice how your Queen has the final say in all of this mess?


The Monarchy is symbolic in every possible way. Every law that passes Parliament requires 'royal assent' to formalise it into actually being law but she has no way to ever refuse without launching a constitutional crisis.

She has no actual say in it, she just authorised the PM to do what he told her he needed to do because constitutionally she couldn't do anything else.

I wish Americans could understand this very obvious point rather than constantly trying to claim the Queen still rules us like some kind of tyrant.


----------



## NapperX (Jan 2, 2014)

Reservoir Angel said:


> The Monarchy is symbolic in every possible way. Every law that passes Parliament requires 'royal assent' to formalise it into actually being law but *she has no way to ever refuse without *launching a constitutional crisis.
> 
> She has no actual say in it, she just authorised the PM to do what he told her he needed to do because constitutionally she couldn't do anything else.
> 
> I wish Americans could understand this very obvious point rather than constantly trying to claim the Queen still rules us like some kind of tyrant.


She may refuse if she wishes to, and she may also choose cabinet ministers. Once again not a democracy. Also she is your commander-in-chief. Once again this contradicts a democracy.


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## RavishingRickRules (Sep 22, 2016)

NapperX said:


> U.K is a Monarchy, not a Democracy. Notice how your Queen has the final say in all of this mess?


:lmao

Imagine knowing so little about UK politics that you think the Queen actually runs things... This is definitely not the thread for you.


----------



## NapperX (Jan 2, 2014)

Reservoir Angel said:


> Having symbolic power you can't use is not the same as having power.
> 
> Royal assent to bills passed by Parliament isn't even given in person, because the Monarch has nothing to actually do with it. The last time it was refused was 1707.
> 
> She has no actual functional power! Holy shit how do some morons refuse to understand this?


She has powers mentioned that you refuse to acknowledge. Now go sing your national anthem and claim to be a democracy lol.



RavishingRickRules said:


> :lmao
> 
> Imagine knowing so little about UK politics that you think the Queen actually runs things... This is definitely not the thread for you.


I know you don't like it but she actually does have the final say in all of this.


----------



## Death Rider (May 18, 2011)

NapperX said:


> RavishingRickRules said:
> 
> 
> > <img src="http://www.wrestlingforum.com/images/smilies/roflmao.gif" border="0" alt="" title="ROFLMAO" class="inlineimg" />
> ...


If you think she has any say on how the country is run you should stop posting on this topic as you have no knowledge on how our country is run. If are not trolling then wow :heston


----------



## RavishingRickRules (Sep 22, 2016)

NapperX said:


> I know you don't like it but she actually does have the final say in all of this.


:lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao

I love it when foreigners think they know what they're talking about without realising that they're literally telling all of the people who actually live here that they don't have a clue. 

Priceless.


----------



## Draykorinee (Aug 4, 2015)

I'd almost take a monarchy over this bunch.


----------



## Mr.Monkey (Jul 12, 2014)

You'd think government would have a back up plan. If either or happens.So inefficient.


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## Reservoir Angel (Aug 7, 2010)

NapperX said:


> I know you don't like it but she actually does have the final say in all of this.


No, she _really_ fucking doesn't.


----------



## Draykorinee (Aug 4, 2015)

Mr.Monkey said:


> You'd think government would have a back up plan. If either or happens.So inefficient.


That would mean we'd have to have an original plan to need backing up.

hil


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## Tag89 (Jul 27, 2014)

queen liz is just happy that bj going full on gimp mode has shifted the media & public attention away from prince nonce andrew/epstein, who he definitely defnitely was not friends with and knew nothing about him being jailed for noncing


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## DOPA (Jul 13, 2012)

The Queen has no power and isn't supposed to take sides in regards to politics, she is supposed to remain neutral and to her credit she has done that in regards to Brexit; much to the chagrin of the more hardcore remainers who would have liked her to refuse Boris's request for proroguing parliament because of their own political aims.

But had she done so it would have set a new precedent so far away from how our political system works that it would have caused the constitutional crisis they claim Boris has caused by seeking to prorogue parliament to begin with. Suspension of parliament, regardless of the reason has not been refused since 1707. It would have caused a political earthquake had the Queen said no to the current government.

It may not matter regardless now that the legislation to block no deal has gotten through just in the time frame needed before the suspension of parliament has kicked in. It's become more likely that yet another extension will be granted by the EU and whilst parliament has stated in the legislation that they want it for the new year, the power in regards to the suspension is in the EU's hands. Thus we may either get a longer extension forced upon us or an extension with specific conditions set by the European Commission.

There are a few other outcomes which could happen: 

* Boris could just ignore the legislation altogether, though admittedly I'm not fully knowledgeable in regards to the legality of doing so. On the one hand, the bill has received royal assent, so ignoring it would almost certainly bring about legal action. On the other hand, the bill itself says that it is *Prime Minister* who would have to request an extension directly to the president of the European Council. So theoretically, Boris could refuse to write or sign that letter. Would that actually happen though? Could go either way honestly.

* In the now unlikely event of a general election before 19th October, should that happen and Boris gain a majority which looks likely if polls are to be believed, the law could be scrapped altogether. But again, unlikely to happen.

* The EU could refuse the extension themselves and allow us to crash out. I find this to be unlikely too given that they would like us to stay or sign the treaty that May "negotiated for us" so we are subservient without any say i.e a vassal state. There's a little bit more of a chance Macron vetoes the extension as he is fed up of the whole Brexit process but again, history shows us he usually falls in line with Merkel and the European Commission when it comes down to it.

So at the moment unless somethings changes which is likely considering how much has happened in these last two weeks alone, it's looking likely this drags on yet again for months on end. I just want this over and done with now in all honesty.

There's more I want to say mainly about Corbyn and Labour, but this post is already quite long. I might write another post at some point in regards to that.


----------



## RavishingRickRules (Sep 22, 2016)

DOPA said:


> The Queen has no power and isn't supposed to take sides in regards to politics, she is supposed to remain neutral and to her credit she has done that in regards to Brexit; much to the chagrin of the more hardcore remainers who would have liked her to refuse Boris's request for proroguing parliament because of their own political aims.
> 
> But had she done so it would have set a new precedent so far away from how our political system works that it would have caused the constitutional crisis they claim Boris has caused by seeking to prorogue parliament to begin with. Suspension of parliament, regardless of the reason has not been refused since 1707. It would have caused a political earthquake had the Queen said no to the current government.
> 
> ...


Tbh, all that needs to be said about Corbyn is this: :lmao :lmao :lmao

I've never seen a more ridiculously incompetent politician. With the way the Tories have been the last 2 years he should be very easily destroying them (most competent politicians would be) and he's actually doing worse because he's been such a pussy ass little bitch the whole time.


----------



## DOPA (Jul 13, 2012)

RavishingRickRules said:


> Tbh, all that needs to be said about Corbyn is this: :lmao :lmao :lmao
> 
> I've never seen a more ridiculously incompetent politician. With the way the Tories have been the last 2 years he should be very easily destroying them (most competent politicians would be) and he's actually doing worse because he's been such a pussy ass little bitch the whole time.


With how May handled the negotiations and how weak she's been, a new Conservative prime minister should have faced an uphill battle and Labour should be taking it to them.

Instead the following has happened in my opinion anyway:

* Boris regardless of how you feel about his actions, has shored up both the Conservative and Brexit base in a way which has united them which in terms of a FPTP system is a very strong position to be in.

* Corbyn, who had been calling for an election for months does a full 180 and decides to not back an election called by a sitting government. That makes him look both hypocritical and weak (which he is). Labour claim it's to stop no deal but let's take Brexit out of the equation and be honest for a second: If all the polls showed that Labour would be on course to win and get a full majority, would Corbyn still not go for an election? Of course he would go for the election in that circumstance.

Labour's Brexit policy has been confused from the get go anyway, they can't make their minds up because they have the dilemma of having their parliamentary MP's being almost fully Remain on one side, with most of their constituencies being for leave on the other.

They've tried to play both (and are still trying) and a lot of people see right through it. At least the Lib Dems are honest about being a remain party. I have nothing but utter contempt for Corbyn and Labour because of how dishonest they've been in regards to their stance on Brexit.


----------



## NapperX (Jan 2, 2014)

Death Rider said:


> If you think she has any say on how the country is run you should stop posting on this topic as you have no knowledge on how our country is run. If are not trolling then wow :heston





RavishingRickRules said:


> :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao
> 
> I love it when foreigners think they know what they're talking about without realising that they're literally telling all of the people who actually live here that they don't have a clue.
> 
> Priceless.





Reservoir Angel said:


> No, she _really_ fucking doesn't.


You do not get to dictate what a Democracy is when your leadership is a revolving door. You tell the E.U what to do but then you have a referendum to leave and yet you are still there. You voted yourselves out of the E.U, so stop lingering like a fart. You "elect" politicians who can't even negotiate an exit strategy so they keep nominating a new party leader or P.M who has no idea what to do and you call that a Democracy lol. You said you were going to leave and kept extending your own deadline so stfu already and gtfo. It's like the idiot at the party who says he is going to leave but then decides to stay and then demands new terms. You don't even understand the basic concept of your own referendum. You are telling "foreigners" you wanted out of the E.U, and yet you are still there with constantly new deadlines and new demands....seems like someone is confused. Just watch what your Queen does sooner or later.


----------



## Draykorinee (Aug 4, 2015)

Corbyn was my great white hope when he came in, not going to lie.

I now, like a lot of Brexit voters no doubt, deeply regret my decision.

He's useless.

However, to suggest hes the most incompetent politician you've seen must surely be utter hyperbole when you've literally seen the worst in May.


----------



## RavishingRickRules (Sep 22, 2016)

NapperX said:


> You do not get to dictate what a Democracy is when your leadership is a revolving door. You tell the E.U what to do but then you have a referendum to leave and yet you are still there. You voted yourselves out of the E.U, so stop lingering like a fart. You "elect" politicians who can't even negotiate an exit strategy so they keep nominating a new party leader or P.M who has no idea what to do and you call that a Democracy lol. You said you were going to leave and kept extending your own deadline so stfu already and gtfo. It's like the idiot at the party who says he is going to leave but then decides to stay and then demands new terms. You don't even understand the basic concept of your own referendum. You are telling "foreigners" you wanted out of the E.U, and yet you are still there with constantly new deadlines and new demands....seems like someone is confused. Just watch what your Queen does sooner or later.


:lmao :lmao :lmao

I'll wait with baited breath for the Queen to come and run the country...

:lmao :lmao :lmao


----------



## Reservoir Angel (Aug 7, 2010)

For all the times I think nobody in the UK understands the nonsense of Brexit, at least I can take solace in the fact that non-Brits understand it even less even if they seem to think they understand it more.


----------



## UniversalGleam (Jan 30, 2017)

NapperX said:


> You said you were going to leave and kept extending your own deadline so stfu already and gtfo.


why do you keep saying "you" like people on a wrestling forum are responsible for when the country actually leaves? 

its like you are moaning at rick for complaining instead of just leaving.....its quite amusing. Its like the stereotype that all english people know the queen, we don't all have the phone number for Brussels to just "gtfo" funnily enough. We had a referendum but that doesnt mean we are all participating in how this is carried out. 

you also clearly have some fantasy view about what the queen is in 2019.


----------



## DOPA (Jul 13, 2012)

The EU's most outspoken advocate admits he sees the EU as an empire to rapturous applause at a Liberal Democrat conference.

Says it all really.


----------



## RavishingRickRules (Sep 22, 2016)

UniversalGleam said:


> why do you keep saying "you" like people on a wrestling forum are responsible for when the country actually leaves?
> 
> its like you are moaning at rick for complaining instead of just leaving.....its quite amusing. Its like the stereotype that all english people know the queen, we don't all have the phone number for Brussels to just "gtfo" funnily enough. We had a referendum but that doesnt mean we are all participating in how this is carried out.
> 
> you also clearly have some fantasy view about what the queen is in 2019.


It's actually really hilarious I think. He's sat there typing his idiocy thinking "I know so much about Britain" whilst every single British person laughs at how wrong he is. Classic.


----------



## UniversalGleam (Jan 30, 2017)

RavishingRickRules said:


> It's actually really hilarious I think. He's sat there typing his idiocy thinking "I know so much about Britain" whilst every single British person laughs at how wrong he is. Classic.


Its just the old thing again where people don't really think about what they are saying, they go off the basis of "she is the queen therefore she rules you".......uhhh no, please take a minute to go and read abit about it and you will quickly realise that we arnt living in centuries gone by.

The queen is a neutral figurehead, she isnt some backseat dictator.


----------



## NapperX (Jan 2, 2014)

UniversalGleam said:


> why do you keep saying "you" like people on a wrestling forum are responsible for when the country actually leaves?
> 
> its like you are moaning at rick for complaining instead of just leaving.....its quite amusing. Its like the stereotype that all english people know the queen, we don't all have the phone number for Brussels to just "gtfo" funnily enough. We had a referendum but that doesnt mean we are all participating in how this is carried out.
> 
> you also clearly have some fantasy view about what the queen is in 2019.


I guess you don't understand comprehension.


----------



## UniversalGleam (Jan 30, 2017)

NapperX said:


> I guess you don't understand comprehension.


I guess you should just accept that you got it wrong and stop trying to get the last word in.


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## NapperX (Jan 2, 2014)

UniversalGleam said:


> I guess you should just accept that you got it wrong and stop trying to get the last word in.


Learn some basic comprehension. You do not get to dictate to others what a democracy is when you can't figure out an exit deal and when you don't understand the basic concepts and consequences of a referendum. This is what the majority of what the U.K voted for and that is sadly your position whether you like it or not. Keep voting in the same stupid politicians under the guise of democracy and then you complain about results. Major hint, the problem in the U.K is deeper than politicians.


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## UniversalGleam (Jan 30, 2017)

NapperX said:


> Learn some basic comprehension. You do not get to dictate to others what a democracy is when you can't figure out an exit deal and when you don't understand the basic concepts and consequences of a referendum. This is what the majority of what the U.K voted for and that is sadly your position whether you like it or not. Keep voting in the same stupid politicians under the guise of democracy and then you complain about results. Major hint, the problem in the U.K is deeper than politicians.


Im not dictating to anyone and Im not involved with the exit deal negotiations so therefore I struggle to see how I fit into this "you" stuff.


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## Draykorinee (Aug 4, 2015)

DOPA said:


> The EU's most outspoken advocate admits he sees the EU as an empire to rapturous applause at a Liberal Democrat conference.
> 
> Says it all really.


Yup it does, more than happy to vote lib dem now. All this Great Britain crap can do one.


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## NapperX (Jan 2, 2014)

UniversalGleam said:


> Im not dictating to anyone and Im not involved with the exit deal negotiations so therefore I struggle to see how I fit into this "you" stuff.


If you vote in the U.K then stop electing stupid politicians who don't know how to negotiate for your own country. Once again, the colossal fuck up in the U.K isn't just Brexit. It's not that hard to see what I was implying the whole time.


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## DOPA (Jul 13, 2012)

Draykorinee said:


> Yup it does, more than happy to vote lib dem now. All this Great Britain crap can do one.


So you would rather us be part of a European Empire with little to no say or power over our own destiny than to be in a liberal (in the classical sense of the word) parliamentary democracy?

Because that is what Verhofstadt and his ilk want. They want to end the nation state in Europe and envision themselves as the ones who will end up running the show in Brussels once all powers from the existing nation states are transferred to the EU.

I mean fair play for being honest if that is what you want but I could not disagree any more strongly.


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## Draykorinee (Aug 4, 2015)

DOPA said:


> So you would rather us be part of a European Empire with little to no say or power over our own destiny than to be in a liberal (in the classical sense of the word) parliamentary democracy?
> 
> Because that is what Verhofstadt and his ilk want. They want to end the nation state in Europe and envision themselves as the ones who will end up running the show in Brussels once all powers from the existing nation states are transferred to the EU.
> 
> I mean fair play for being honest if that is what you want but I could not disagree any more strongly.


I have no idea why there is a suggestion of no power, is this the same way that Scotland have no power even though they do? 

I don't foresee them pushing for the EU to be a nation state myself, but I'd much rather be part of a strong collaborative EU than sat on the edges while it happens.

Edit:

https://twitter.com/MarkRuffalo/status/1173273612075376641?s=20


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## RavishingRickRules (Sep 22, 2016)

DOPA said:


> So you would rather us be part of a European Empire with little to no say or power over our own destiny than to be in a liberal (in the classical sense of the word) parliamentary democracy?
> 
> Because that is what Verhofstadt and his ilk want. They want to end the nation state in Europe and envision themselves as the ones who will end up running the show in Brussels once all powers from the existing nation states are transferred to the EU.
> 
> I mean fair play for being honest if that is what you want but I could not disagree any more strongly.


Seeing something as an Empire, and BEING an Empire (or even functioning as one, which we don't and won't, ever) are vastly different situations. Nevermind the fact that we already have the best deal in the EU and concessions no other country has (as well as being one of the countries who've lead EU policy since its inception.) The choic eis not "free " or "EU Empire" the choice is very simply "completely irrelevant on the international stage loner country" or "leading figure in one of the most important groups of countries in the world." That choice has been the same since the very beginning, it's just a shame so many Brexiters are either wilfully ignorant or too illiterate to read up and see that.


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## Nothing Finer (Apr 12, 2017)

The Prime Minister of Luxembourg is now in a strong enough position to blatantly humiliate the British Prime Minister in front of the world's media. This is what Brexit has reduced the UK to, the leader of a country the size of a village can now openly mock the British Prime Minister and he has to smile and suck it up because he is desperate for their help to get a deal.

The dumbest thing of all is that Brexiteers look at this international embarrassment and think "Damn. We need to get out from these evil Europeans was quickly as possible". They have no awareness that the only reason the UK is in this position is that Brexit weakens the UK's position in the world and especially Europe so severely that there is no alternative. Even King Brexit is flying around Europe begging anyone who'll listen for a deal.

Brexit Britain is the world's greatest laughing stock. It would be Trump's America, but Trump's America is actually dangerous. Britain threatens nobody and propelling itself into irrelevance while patting itself on the back for what a great decision it's made.


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## FSL (Mar 4, 2014)

Well, well...

There's only one comment that fits today:


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## Death Rider (May 18, 2011)

Hahaha get fucked boris. Glad this has been ruled illegal as it clearly was. You can't just shut parliament cause you can't get you own way. Those are the actions of a dictator


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## Draykorinee (Aug 4, 2015)

Hahaha ad infinitum.

Imagine the front page of the s*n, can't wait till they tear the judges apart for liking country music and watching reruns of friends.


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## UniversalGleam (Jan 30, 2017)

what a complete mess this continues to be.


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## Draykorinee (Aug 4, 2015)

UniversalGleam said:


> what a complete mess this continues to be.


How very dare you, this is democracy at its best.


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## Irish Jet (Nov 15, 2011)

Delighted to see the courts push back. Boris was in full dictator mode trying to force the country off a cliff. In another time he'd have been hanged for Treason. 

If those fuckers in the Labour party would get the knives out of Corbyn's back we might actually see some fucking progress. But it's unlikely. If they wont show solidarity now they never will.


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## SayWhatAgain! (Jul 25, 2016)

Irish Jet said:


> Delighted to see the courts push back. Boris was in full dictator mode trying to force the country off a cliff. In another time he'd have been hanged for Treason.
> 
> If those fuckers in the Labour party would get the knives out of Corbyn's back we might actually see some fucking progress. But it's unlikely. If they wont show solidarity now they never will.


I'm gonna go out on a limb here & say that you're on the left... :lol

Corbin is a joker too. Fuck them both.


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## Irish Jet (Nov 15, 2011)

SayWhatAgain! said:


> I'm gonna go out on a limb here & say that you're on the left... :lol
> 
> Corbin is a joker too. Fuck them both.


Corbyn is my daddy. You leave him alone.


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## Reservoir Angel (Aug 7, 2010)

So Boris Johnson has lost every vote in Parliament, lost himself his own majority in the process, tried to shut down Parliament itself because they didn't agree with his lunatic No Deal boner, lied to the reigning sovereign to do it, got slapped down by the Supreme Court for being an unlawful dickhead, and has now begged the Opposition to table a motion of No Confidence in him and his government.

I mean if you'd asked me a few months ago if I thought Theresa May would ever look like she was a competent leader I'd have said no but holy fucking shit.


----------



## Gift Of Jericho (May 5, 2016)

Fuck it I'm going tescos and stocking the cupboard with canned goods waiting for the imminent demise of the pound. Brexit wasn't a bad idea but the execution of it has ruined any benefits the country could possibly have seen.


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## RavishingRickRules (Sep 22, 2016)

Gift Of Jericho said:


> Fuck it I'm going tescos and stocking the cupboard with canned goods waiting for the imminent demise of the pound. Brexit wasn't a bad idea but the execution of it has ruined any benefits the country could possibly have seen.


Actually you can't even run with the "it wasn't a bad idea" narrative any more. It's too far in, literally every study, economist or analyst worth there salt has confirmed hundreds of times over that there is no remote positive impact of any form of Brexit, hard, soft or otherwise. The best case scenario was only ever taking a huge hit and then years of struggles to try and get back to where we are now. The only real difference between the Brexits is exactly how much worse off we'd be. I wish it was satisfying, but it doesn't feel it despite being vindicated hundreds of times over. "Project fear" was only ever "project fact," at this stage ti would take either blind stupidity or wilful ignorance to believe otherwise. Even more so when the motives of the chief Brexiters have been laid bare for 3 years now.


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## Gift Of Jericho (May 5, 2016)

RavishingRickRules said:


> Actually you can't even run with the "it wasn't a bad idea" narrative any more. It's too far in, literally every study, economist or analyst worth there salt has confirmed hundreds of times over that there is no remote positive impact of any form of Brexit, hard, soft or otherwise. The best case scenario was only ever taking a huge hit and then years of struggles to try and get back to where we are now. The only real difference between the Brexits is exactly how much worse off we'd be. I wish it was satisfying, but it doesn't feel it despite being vindicated hundreds of times over. "Project fear" was only ever "project fact," at this stage ti would take either blind stupidity or wilful ignorance to believe otherwise. Even more so when the motives of the chief Brexiters have been laid bare for 3 years now.


Short term there was always going to be downsides, but look at the bigger picture of what the EU was doing to the country with benefit tourism, making ridiculously harder for the lower class people without formal training to actually get work. and the EU telling us how much fish we could catch from our own oceans. my conclusion was the bigger countries in the EU was a life raft for the less prosperous nations and it was actually more detrimental to remain than to leave in the long term. 

Anecdotal evidence so take it with a pinch of salt, but I was denied a minimum wage warehouse job because I couldn't speak polish despite having 3 years of experience and 1 year of supervisor experience. I'm not a xenophobe, I don't blame the people who took advantage of freedom of movement for a better life but at the end of the day something needed to be done about it.


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## Draykorinee (Aug 4, 2015)

Brexit want a bad idea... Except it always was.


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## RavishingRickRules (Sep 22, 2016)

Gift Of Jericho said:


> Short term there was always going to be downsides, but look at the bigger picture of what the EU was doing to the country with benefit tourism, making ridiculously harder for the lower class people without formal training to actually get work. and the EU telling us how much fish we could catch from our own oceans. my conclusion was the bigger countries in the EU was a life raft for the less prosperous nations and it was actually more detrimental to remain than to leave in the long term.
> 
> Anecdotal evidence so take it with a pinch of salt, but I was denied a minimum wage warehouse job because I couldn't speak polish despite having 3 years of experience and 1 year of supervisor experience. I'm not a xenophobe, I don't blame the people who took advantage of freedom of movement for a better life but at the end of the day something needed to be done about it.


Ah well, now here's your problem. "Benefit tourism" not the EU's fault. Under EU law we are allowed to remove anybody who doesn't get a job and support themselves (in France they give you 3 months, I work there at the moment so I know.) The UK government are who you need to blame. What "lower class people without formal training" aren't getting any work? Seriously though, go look online for no-skill jobs anywhere in the country right now, there's thousands. The issue isn't that they're being taken, it's that a significant portion of Brits think they're too good to clean toilets, despite having been on benefits their entire lives and never contributing once (something that the vast majority of EU migrants do from the moment they show up.) Let's not forget that EU migration has been shown countless times to FACTUALLY be a net positive on our economy, which means more jobs for everybody. 

At the end of the day, you needed to read the actual facts like the rest of the Brexiters and stop listening to proven liars like Boris and Reese-Mogg. No point trying to deflect at this point, the facts have been well and truly established. Only thing left for the non-deluded brexiters to do really is admit they were wrong and strong trying to flog a dead horse for sings of life where there were non in the stillborn foal from the start.


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## red dead2 (Dec 15, 2017)

RavishingRickRules said:


> Ah well, now here's your problem. "Benefit tourism" not the EU's fault. Under EU law we are allowed to remove anybody who doesn't get a job and support themselves (in France they give you 3 months, I work there at the moment so I know.) The UK government are who you need to blame. What "lower class people without formal training" aren't getting any work? Seriously though, go look online for no-skill jobs anywhere in the country right now, there's thousands. The issue isn't that they're being taken, *it's that a significant portion of Brits think they're too good to clean toilets*, despite having been on benefits their entire lives and never contributing once (something that the vast majority of EU migrants do from the moment they show up.) Let's not forget that EU migration has been shown countless times to FACTUALLY be a net positive on our economy, which means more jobs for everybody.
> 
> At the end of the day, you needed to read the actual facts like the rest of the Brexiters and stop listening to proven liars like Boris and Reese-Mogg. No point trying to deflect at this point, the facts have been well and truly established. Only thing left for the non-deluded brexiters to do really is admit they were wrong and strong trying to flog a dead horse for sings of life where there were non in the stillborn foal from the start.


This

I know it's just from my point of view but in London most of the buses are staffed by Poles, Somalis and FOB Indians

You will hardly see a homegrown British person take such a job where you have the pressure of driving in London's congested streets and take abuse from passengers every single day.

like it or not, we need immigrant workers. 

Anyway the EU immigration argument is going to die away fairly quickly as since the referendum less people are coming here to look for jobs from the continent and some have even left due to the uncertainty surrounding brexit.

FWIW I am positive there will be a second referendum next year. all signs are showing it.


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## red dead2 (Dec 15, 2017)

Gift Of Jericho said:


> Short term there was always going to be downsides, but look at the bigger picture of what the EU was doing to the country with benefit tourism, making ridiculously harder for the lower class people without formal training to actually get work. and the EU telling us how much fish we could catch from our own oceans. my conclusion was the bigger countries in the EU was a life raft for the less prosperous nations and it was actually more detrimental to remain than to leave in the long term.
> 
> Anecdotal evidence so take it with a pinch of salt, but I was denied a minimum wage warehouse job because I couldn't speak polish despite having 3 years of experience and 1 year of supervisor experience. I'm not a xenophobe, I don't blame the people who took advantage of freedom of movement for a better life but at the end of the day something needed to be done about it.


Was it a British company or a Polish one?

If a British owned company denied you on the grounds you could not speak a foreign language then it is outrages however if the warehouse was a Polish meats distributor then I could understand why they would turn you down.

FWIW a few years ago I applied to be a dishwasher in a Chinese restaurant in Soho and fair to say they turned me down because I was not of their culture and would find it hard to communicate with other staff members.

disappointing to hear yes, but to be fair their decision made sense in the grand scheme of things as I would of just been lost trying to communicate with them and vice-versa.


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## Draykorinee (Aug 4, 2015)

My job is part of the recruitment and retention of nurses outside the UK, they the training and academy of our hospital.

We've seen a 95% drop in EU nurses in the last 2 years and of those who we recruited before we've retained less than 25%

We are now nearly solely dependant on nurses from outside the EU to fill our vacancies and this is a nationwide catastrophe with record numbers of nursing and doctor vacancies. 

The problem is brexiters are so stupid and they don't realise the problems they're causing.


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## red dead2 (Dec 15, 2017)

Reservoir Angel said:


> So Boris Johnson has lost every vote in Parliament, lost himself his own majority in the process, tried to shut down Parliament itself because they didn't agree with his lunatic No Deal boner, lied to the reigning sovereign to do it, got slapped down by the Supreme Court for being an unlawful dickhead, and has now begged the Opposition to table a motion of No Confidence in him and his government.
> 
> I mean if you'd asked me a few months ago* if I thought Theresa May would ever look like she was a competent leader I'd have said no but holy fucking shit*.


Theresa May's deal was actually a damn good brexit deal:

It would have provided an orderly transition into a new political relationship between UK & EU, allowed for the pound to stabilize, over time would have satisfied a significant amount of leave voters and even some remain ones and most importantly unlike a no deal brexit, would not have left UK economy in a precarious situation and not have thrown NI peace process into chaos.

As a person who supports remain, it's one of the reasons why I was rooting for the Tory hard right to rebel against her. Because I knew once they took power they would colossally fvck up Brexit and make it look like a complete shit show 

Mays deal was the best brexit deal a brexiter could have got. I would rather us stay in the EU (albeit with a pledge from next PM to work with other national governments on attempts to reform it to UK's benefit) or if not leave with a Norway + option than that withdrawal agreement or No Deal.


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## Gift Of Jericho (May 5, 2016)

red dead2 said:


> Was it a British company or a Polish one?
> 
> If a British owned company denied you on the grounds you could not speak a foreign language then it is outrages however if the warehouse was a Polish meats distributor then I could understand why they would turn you down.
> 
> ...


It was an British company, literally shipped frozen food to the local supermarkerts. I don't expect to sway anyone with this, I'm aware it's anecdotal and doesn't hold much wait, but thats why I voted leave personally


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## Draykorinee (Aug 4, 2015)

Benefit tourism is up there with one of the worst reasons to vote leave because its such a tiny problem and leaving the EU does not prevent benefit tourism.

The EU has no impact on uneducated lower class people getting jobs and in fact since Brexit started and EU immigration fell, large companies like whetherspoons are complaining that no one will do their shitty jobs.

It's not just the EU that impact fishing quotas, all UN countries are forced to have fishing quotas to improve sustainability. We also export the vast majority of our fish to the EU.


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## FSL (Mar 4, 2014)

Boris saying that we should deliver Brexit to honour Jo Cox memory when she was a remainer :fpalm


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## Draykorinee (Aug 4, 2015)

Fucks sake, you've got Labour on the left throwing the election away by staying neutral and the tories on the right doing everything to fuck up Brexit so much that they can push a no deal.

This is how it must feel to be in America when you have 2 utterly dreadful parties who keep taking power. 

Corbyn is a raving melt and bojo is a cretin, its like Pelosi and trump.


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## DOPA (Jul 13, 2012)

What was interesting about the supreme court ruling for me wasn't necessarily that it went against the government but what the wording of that ruling was as well as the fact is was a unanimous decision.

A lot of people including some of the media have trotted out that it was unlawful or illegal but the fact remains that in legal terms this isn't correct as there isn't any laws on the books in regards to how prorogument should be carried out legally. By all accounts, the supreme court had to look at other similar cases away from the issue of prorogument in regards to constitutional law to see if there was even a case to be made that the government acted "unlawfully" in this particular situation. The statement in conclusion to the ruling said that essentially prorogument never happened, which even if that is factually true, is a rather bizarre thing to say. This backs up my argument even further that in legal standings, what Boris did was not in fact illegal or unlawful.....because once again it is a case that is the first of it's kind and there is no constitutional law which clears this particular matter up. 

The fact is is that more than anything, it looks like the length of the prorogument + the lack of justifiable explanation for it according to the Supreme Court is what led them to conclude their decision against Boris. But the fact there is no clear case in terms of our parliamentary constitution in regards to what is or what isn't legal prorogument leaves the decision in of itself on shaky grounds which is why it is an unprecedented case. We will certainly need new legislation on constitutional grounds to clear up this mess and make future rulings a lot more clear cut. This is precisely why both the English and Welsh courts ruled with the government citing that because there was no legal precedence, the courts should not get involved. The supreme court took the opposite side of the argument and I think in short the reasoning can be summed up as Boris stretching the legality of prorogument in terms of length so far that the Supreme Court thought he was taking liberties.

The fact that it was unanimous as well says a lot, but maybe not for the reasons some remainers might believe. Many legal experts including David Allen Green whose appeared on LBC have stated that the reasoning for the unanimous decision is to avoid the appearance of the stance being taken to be a partisan one. Considering the fact that the English and Welsh courts disagreed with the Scottish verdict, there is a good chance that a minority of the Supreme Court (3 to 4 probably at most) had actually sided with the government but had decided to back the majority verdict to bring unanimity and credibility to the Supreme Court itself as an institution. Admittedly, this is just a hunch on my part but I'm going off what legal experts far more qualified than myself have speculated.

As far as the fallout is concerned, it's pretty clear Boris isn't going to resign and so Corbyn's calls for him to step down are rather empty. Especially because he is intent on not calling an election after months of demanding one. There is still the possibility on bringing forward a motion of no confidence so he'll be in charge of a minority government but considering the remainers already have a clear majority in parliament and with Labour still trailing in the polls, my gut tells me that won't happen. Truth be told, I think Labour are hoping over time the chaos will lead people on to their side but at the moment, it really isn't working as a tactic.

Especially when you lead legislation to block the Tories from having their annual political conference. That in of itself is a big political miscalucation and judging by the social media reaction, it is only going to push more people towards supporting Boris. It comes across as completely petty and self righteous at a time where Brexiteers believe Parliament are doing everything they can to block Brexit entirely, not just no deal.

Lastly one thing I will say I completely am out of lock step with Boris on is invoking Jo Cox's name into recent events. It's not what he said that I think is wrong in content but the fact her name was even brought up to begin with. Poor judgement there, he could have used better ways to convey the same message.


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## RavishingRickRules (Sep 22, 2016)

Does anybody else feel like Boris is karma for all the times we laughed at all the Trump memes, and the interviews, and the "ideas" and the buffoonery? I feel like we spent a couple years going "well, she's a disaster, but at least she's not fucking Trump" and Boris went "Jeeves, hold my bloody sherry, dear chap..." We should just change the Union Flag to a picture of a facepalm at this point after this whole shitstorm.


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## Tag89 (Jul 27, 2014)

imagine being corbyn

having political opportunities handed to you on a silver platter the past couple of years, with the opposition clowning around non-stop even as the media desperately smears you...

...and you just score own goal after own goal

i mean if you can't put away bj the cunt when he's in this sort of state, you should probably reconsider the way you are doing things

this leaves the yellow tories errr i mean the lib dems, and the brexit party (lol) as choices, smh


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## FSL (Mar 4, 2014)

The EU should do the favour and not grant another extension to the UK. What is happening is ridiculous: the parliament looks like a mad house, you have MPs crying in public because of death threats and the PM uses inappropriate language and is keen on fuelling hate.

If this is the image the UK wants to pass to the world I can only imagine what the nations that will have to set new deals are thinking at the moment.

And this was supposed to be the easiest part of the negotiations right kids?

But rest assured it will only get worse. Wait until the Brexit party gets mps in the parliament. If I were an EU national living In the UK I would start worrying.


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## Draykorinee (Aug 4, 2015)

FSL said:


> If I were an EU national living In the UK I would start worrying.


We already have copious amounts of EU workers leaving, our Trust has lost multiple Doctors and Nurses with Brexit being a factor in their decision. They've been worrying since Brexit happened.

We deserve everything we get in the UK, its sad, but true.


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## Draykorinee (Aug 4, 2015)

Wednesday evening:



> Dominic Cummings says current efforts to try to achieve Brexit are a "walk in the park" compared to trying to win the referendum with Vote Leave.


Thursday morning



> But, when questioned as he left his home in London on Friday morning, Mr Cummings said: "Who said it would be a walk in the park?"
> 
> Told that he had made the remark, he replied: "No."


This shit is why we need a radical overhaul of our political system, we've got incompetent morons like Corbyn, Diane fucking abbot, Boris Johnson, Rees Mogg and co running this place.


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## UniversalGleam (Jan 30, 2017)

I actually have anger towards corbyn, hes just such a fucking wank shaft. He only ever seems to come to life when the opposition takes a tumble, hes a mumbling mess when it comes to him doing stuff off his own back.


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## Draykorinee (Aug 4, 2015)

I just feel anger at the fact he's clinging on to the role when he's clearly lost the party and the voters. I do think he's one of the most smeared mps I've seen but that's not an excuse to just be shit.


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## Reservoir Angel (Aug 7, 2010)

The thing that annoys me most about Corbyn isn't even that he's shit; it's the insistence of his devout followers that he's not shit but is actually some brilliant political mastermind playing 4D chess and is responsible for everything good that ever happens in politics since he became Labour leader and that any suggestion otherwise is because of an evil brainwashing media conspiracy to destroy him.

It's a level of hero worship that when applied to politicians will never not be disturbing to me. I'm weirded out when Trump fans do it, I'm weirded out when Bernie fans do it, and yeah I'm weirded out when Corbynites do it.


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## Draykorinee (Aug 4, 2015)

Tbf, when it comes to Bernie it usually is corporate media attempts to maintain the status quo.

I'll give you the others.


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## Reservoir Angel (Aug 7, 2010)

Draykorinee said:


> Tbf, when it comes to Bernie it usually is corporate media attempts to maintain the status quo.
> 
> I'll give you the others.


I can grant you that to a certain extent. But I'm talking more like when any article that doesn't explicitly mention or praise him when talking about the Democratic primary gets flooded with idiots claiming conspiracy theories.

Article about frontrunner Joe Biden? WHY AREN'T YOU TALKING ABOUT HOW BERNIE HAS WAY MORE DONORS AND BETTER IDEAS!?

Article about Elizabeth Warren gaining on Biden in national polling? BUT BERNIE HAD ALL HER POLICY IDEAS BEFORE HER SO YOU SHOULD BE TALKING ALL ABOUT HIM!!!

It's that kind of hysterical shit.


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## DoctorWhosawhatsit (Aug 23, 2016)

sarobal said:


> Do you think this mentality and the popularity of nonexperts, populism, perceived average joes, anti-establishmentarianism, etc., will continue on for long while. If so, are we headed off a cliff, or will this give birth to a new revolution with better ideas that better serve greater swathes of the population?


Yes because we’re doing nothing to improve the education of our children. Conversely were dumbing things down even further. 

In New York for example you can opt your child out of state tests because they’re “too hard”. 

We’ve also lost site, at least in America, of what is opinion and what are cold, hard, unbiased, FACTS.


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## FSL (Mar 4, 2014)

And the shambles continues... unbelievable.


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## Reservoir Angel (Aug 7, 2010)

I'm only 28 years old but at this point even if I live to a decent level of old age instead of offing myself in a few years I genuinely am feeling like there will never be a time in my life from this point onwards where I don't hear the word 'Brexit' at least once a day.

It's a fucking sisyphean nightmare of sanity-eroding Lovecraftian horror at this point. It is endless and eternal and unknowable, all it does is spread misery and madness and the only thing you can grasp about its disgusting ever-changing form is that it will exist long, long after we're all fucking dead.


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## Rated Phenomenal (Dec 31, 2011)

OUT MEANS OUT! NOBODY KNOWS WHAT BEING OUT WILL BRING BUT I WILL CONTINUE TO SHOUT IT ANYWAY!


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## Draykorinee (Aug 4, 2015)

epepep

Brexit.


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## RavishingRickRules (Sep 22, 2016)

Draykorinee said:


> epepep
> 
> Brexit.


If only religious fundamentalists could be educated with fact and reason eh? Let's face it, at this point that's all the Brexiters have left, blind fanaticism and rabid idiocy.


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## FSL (Mar 4, 2014)

Brexit:

Campaign for holding a referendum... Campaign for Remain or Leave... Referendum... Pm resigns... Unelected PM... Snap election... Campaign... Extension... PM resigns... Unelected PM... Extension... Snap election... Campaign...

The easiest deal in history ladies and gens.


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## Reservoir Angel (Aug 7, 2010)

Jeremy Corbyn when the election was called:


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## Lenny Leonard (Dec 17, 2016)

I look forward to every video about Brexit Jonathan Pie does


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## dele (Feb 21, 2005)

Reservoir Angel said:


> I can grant you that to a certain extent. But I'm talking more like when any article that doesn't explicitly mention or praise him when talking about the Democratic primary gets flooded with idiots claiming conspiracy theories.
> 
> Article about frontrunner Joe Biden? WHY AREN'T YOU TALKING ABOUT HOW BERNIE HAS WAY MORE DONORS AND BETTER IDEAS!?
> 
> ...


I really like Bernie, and I still maintain Bernie Would've Won in 2016. I have major reservations about voting for a 76 year old man for a presidency where the goal will be 8 years. I like Warren, but she will be 70 (albeit optics are on her side). Mayor Pete is a major dark horse in this race imo.


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