# Unpopular Wrestling Opinions



## -Mystery-

I took this thread seriously until I got to number 4.

BLASPHEMY!


----------



## Sephiroth

Hey its ok. I just never got into it. I have a few shows, but none of the were that great. I guess it might be because I have a few 2005 shows and Redefined.

The main event, Sal/Black, and Davey/Aries were all good. But one **** 1/2 match and two *** matches doesn't make an amazing show.

Thats what the problem is with indy fans. If a show has one **** 1/2 and everything else is ** or under, its still considered a great show. Its not.


----------



## Emperor DC

Kurt Angle's not as great as people think.


----------



## just1988

Owen Hart on his day, was better than Bret.


----------



## SHIRLEY

Sephiroth said:


> 1. Christopher Daniels is boring, unless he's wrestling someone who can make the match interesting. Case in point, Daniels vs. Stevens at GTGM....boring! He's so formula it hurts the brain
> 3. Colt Cabana is a joke...but a funny joke.
> 5. Joe vs. Punk isn't the best feud in ROH history...Danielson/Strong is.
> 12. At the moment, PWG > ROH


- I've never found Daniels boring.
- I don't find Cabana particularly funny. He gives me a headache.
- Dragon-Nigel-Morishima is probably my favourite ROH rivalry. 
- I only like PWG as a bit of light entertainment when serious wrestling is burning me out. Too much stopping and starting of matches for the sake of comedy spots, it takes me out of the show. Although some bits are ROFL funny.

My responses to your opinions are probably unpopular opinions in themselves.

Here's one more: Mike Quackenbush is rubbish at anything other than booking.


----------



## seancarleton77

Danielson vs. McGuinness is the.... second best feud in Ring of Honor history, Danielson vs. Morishima has to be number 1! My all time favourite non Puro match may be McGuinness vs. Danielson at Unified but Morishima seemed like he wanted to kill Danielson and vise versa.

Manami Toyota is the greatest womens wrestler to ever live!

Daniels is better than Styles for sure, but I don't know about him being better than Joe, well current Joe sucks but I mean ROH Joe.


----------



## jawbreaker

1. The Briscoes suck. They kind of always have, but at least before they were crazy and athletic enough to still be entertaining. Now they just plain suck.
2. Chris Hero is the second-best active wrestler in the world right now.
3. Jerry Lynn vs. RVD was never all that good.
4. Joe vs. Punk III was the best match of the trilogy.
5. TLC II is the best ladder match ever.
6. Danielson vs. Shelley from Arena Warfare was the best match on the Milestone Series.
7. Tim Donst is really really good.
8. Black/Danielson vs. the American Wolves is the best tag match in ROH history.

There are more but I can't think of them right now.


----------



## Genking48

1. I find Chikara better than all the other indy companies.
2. I don't really care for The Briscoes.
3. TNA should just die so their talent can go other places where they would be used better.
4. Jakob Hammermeier = AWESOME.
5. Delirious suck.
6. Kane > Matt Hardy.


----------



## antoniomare007

ECW wasn't great


----------



## bloodletting

Deathmatch wrestling is really entertaining. Its results/scars are the realest form of any pro wrestling


----------



## -Mystery-

antoniomare007 said:


> ECW wasn't great


Me and Blasko talked about that last week. I tried so hard to like it, I mean I tried forcing myself to like it, but I just couldn't. Sure, it had great matches, but that product overall wasn't anything to hit home about.


----------



## freeway222

Vince Russo is not even half to blame for the current state of TNA.


----------



## freeway222

As much as I find him highly annoying (this may be unpopular in its self) Cornette is right when he says Hardcore Wrastlin' has done great damage to the business.


----------



## Bubz

Joe/Punk 3 is the best match they had together

Austin/Rock WM17 is one of the best matches EVER!

ROH is better than PWG

Cena is not actually a terrible wrestler


----------



## Sephiroth

Here's another.

Randy Orton is the best worker in the world...John Cena is a close second.


----------



## Emperor Palpatine

WWECW >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Original ECW.

Smackdown 2006 was fucking AWESOME.

AJ Styles is terrible.

Kurt Angle is terrible too.

The Rock was only entertaining for about 1% of his entire career.

WrestleMania XIX is EASILY better than WrestleMania X-7.

Finlay was the best wrestler in the world in 2006 (yes, better than Danielson).

1998 and 1999 were 2 of the very worst years WWF ever had.


----------



## The Great Maijin

Glad to see someone agree about Wrestlemania 2003 despite those other opinions. 

Vince russo made WCW entertaining to watch
people hate on TNA because its cool.


----------



## seabs

*I actually agree with about 90% of the statements in here lol.*


----------



## -Mystery-

Sephiroth said:


> Here's another.
> 
> Randy Orton is the best worker in the world...John Cena is a close second.


Now let me ask you this, are you like me that separates worker and wrestler? When I say worker, I usually talk about just straight ring work, whereas wrestler is the total package. 

Any who, I'd put Cena above him as best pro wrestler around, but he's a close second. Mysterio's very close to Orton as well.


----------



## Yeah1993

-I could probably list 100 guys I think are better than Kurt Angle. John Cena's one of them.
-Finlay/Benoit JD 06 is a top ten in WWE history.
-WCW 91-93 > WWF 97-01.
-Dusty Rhodes is pretty great at everything.
-Dustin Rhodes is awesome at everything
-Paul Heyman wasn;t a good business man at all, and ECW had a negative effect on pro wrestling.
-Ken Kennedy is garbage on th mic
-Cena's not that good at it either (mic), and never has been.
-Davey Richards is one of the worst workers I've ever seen.
-Sgt. Slaughter is one of the top 40 I've seen.
-Big Van Vader's one of the top 30.
-El Hijo del Santo's one of the top 3.
-While Lex Luger was in his peak, he was better than most wrestlers ever become.
-WrestleMania XXIV wasn't that good.
-Bret Hart was hardly a good technical/mat wrestler. Neither was Steve Austin, Curt Hennig, Owen Hartm Shawn Michaels, Davey Boy Smith or Triple H.
-The Dynamite Kid isn;t above "good" in 90% of his matches.
-DKid's series w/ Sayama ranged from "really good" to "unwatchable crap". None are "great" or above.

more to come I think.


----------



## JypeK

Foley vs. Angle @ victory road 2009 was good


----------



## Horselover Fat

Yeah1993 said:


> -I could probably list 100 guys I think are better than Kurt Angle. John Cena's one of them.
> -Finlay/Benoit JD 06 is a top ten in WWE history.
> -WCW 91-93 > WWF 97-01.
> -Dusty Rhodes is pretty great at everything.
> -Dustin Rhodes is awesome at everything
> -Paul Heyman wasn;t a good business man at all, and ECW had a negative effect on pro wrestling.
> -Ken Kennedy is garbage on th mic
> -Cena's not that good at it either (mic), and never has been.
> -Davey Richards is one of the worst workers I've ever seen.
> -Sgt. Slaughter is one of the top 40 I've seen.
> -Big Van Vader's one of the top 30.
> -El Hijo del Santo's one of the top 3.
> -While Lex Luger was in his peak, he was better than most wrestlers ever become.
> -WrestleMania XXIV wasn't that good.
> -Bret Hart was hardly a good technical/mat wrestler. Neither was Steve Austin, Curt Hennig, Owen Hartm Shawn Michaels, Davey Boy Smith or Triple H.
> -The Dynamite Kid isn;t above "good" in 90% of his matches.
> -DKid's series w/ Sayama ranged from "really good" to "unwatchable crap". None are "great" or above.
> 
> more to come I think.


threads called unpopular wrestling opinions not feech la mannas wrestling opinions


----------



## CM Skittle

-CHIKARA is the WORST wrestling fed, it's like TNA without any talented wrestlers.
-Bryan Danielson isn't helping the indies, he's just making himself look pathetic. I really don't care if WWE even takes him back any more
-Chuck Taylor sucks, he's not even a wrestler he's just a wannabe comedian in a wrestling ring. He's improved in the last year but he's still the worst wrestler I've ever seen tied with Player Uno
-Paul London is a bitter loser who's just jealous of other wrestlers who could actually get over
-PWG has the worst announcing ever, it sounds like a bunch of drunks rambling about nothing half of the time. And I dunno if this is controversial but CHIKARA has the best announcing
-90% of indy wrestling comedy is only funny to nerds. Some of it is funny but lame video game references and stuff like that?? Soo nerdy and lame.


----------



## antoniomare007

agreeing with CM Skittle has to be a top ten unpopular wrestling opinion


----------



## -Mystery-

Two things, what makes Paul London bitter and how is Danielson pathetic?

If you're going to bring the London shoot into play, the dude was high and drunk as fuck. Nothing he said should be taken seriously.

And what do you expect Danielson to do, just sit at home? Dude LOVES pro wrestling. Honestly, the only guy I think that loves the business more than him is Cena.


----------



## smitlick

Ok mine

1. A Majority of Lucha Libre is SHIT no selling no sense crap and mexicans are crazy for thinking its a legit sport.
2. Joe vs Kobashi is only ****1/4-****1/2 and not *****
3. PWG is completely overrated
4. ROH isn't as bad as people think, its just they take the negatives and focus on those.
5. Highspots is fucking shit
6. Fighting Spirit is just a lame excuse for No Selling
7. A lot of Dragon Gate makes no sense (might be popular)
8. FIP is awful
9. YAMATO isn't that great

I have more just can't think


----------



## seancarleton77

CM Skittle said:


> -CHIKARA is the WORST wrestling fed, it's like TNA without any talented wrestlers.
> -Bryan Danielson isn't helping the indies, he's just making himself look pathetic. I really don't care if WWE even takes him back any more
> -Chuck Taylor sucks, he's not even a wrestler he's just a wannabe comedian in a wrestling ring. He's improved in the last year but he's still the worst wrestler I've ever seen tied with Player Uno
> -Paul London is a bitter loser who's just jealous of other wrestlers who could actually get over
> -PWG has the worst announcing ever, it sounds like a bunch of drunks rambling about nothing half of the time. And I dunno if this is controversial but CHIKARA has the best announcing
> -90% of indy wrestling comedy is only funny to nerds. Some of it is funny but lame video game references and stuff like that?? Soo nerdy and lame.


We have a winner!!! Something in my brain exploded after reading this.


----------



## Genking48

CM Skittle said:


> -CHIKARA is the WORST wrestling fed, it's like TNA without any talented wrestlers.
> -Bryan Danielson isn't helping the indies, he's just making himself look pathetic. I really don't care if WWE even takes him back any more
> -Chuck Taylor sucks, he's not even a wrestler he's just a wannabe comedian in a wrestling ring. He's improved in the last year but he's still the worst wrestler I've ever seen tied with Player Uno
> -Paul London is a bitter loser who's just jealous of other wrestlers who could actually get over
> -PWG has the worst announcing ever, it sounds like a bunch of drunks rambling about nothing half of the time. And I dunno if this is controversial but CHIKARA has the best announcing
> -90% of indy wrestling comedy is only funny to nerds. Some of it is funny but lame video game references and stuff like that?? Soo nerdy and lame.


HOLY CRAP!! thats a winner right there, I have never seen that many opinions that I disagree so much with.


----------



## Tarfu

Skittle, you broke my heart. :sad:



smitlick said:


> 5. Highspots is fucking shit


Correction: Highspots' _shipping prices_ are shit. Now we can agree.

And here goes...

- The Dragon Gate six-man from SCOH III was a struggle to watch.
- FIP and WXW are most times unwatchable because of the crowds. I hate them with a passion.
- PWG circa 2005-2007 > 2008-2010.
- Super Dragon is awesome.
- None of WWE MITB's ladder matches deserved four-plus star ratings.
- Dixie Carter is not hot. 
- Serena (Deeb) looks better bald.
- Velvet Sky's looks are overrated
- Shad Gaspard vs. JTG (Strap Match) from Extreme Rules was fun.
- People take the use of The Burning Hammer way too seriously. 
- Gabe Sapolsky ruined McGuinness' world title reign.
- The final match between Danielson and McGuinness was disappointing on so many levels.
- Ladder War II and Glory By Honor VIII in its entirety are overrated. Big time.
- Todd Grisham and Josh Mathews are better commentators than Matt Striker. 
- Cody Rhodes' previous entrance music was one of the best themes ever. 
- Chris Benoit was framed (OH SNAP!!1).

...more to come.

I realize most of you hate me now, but with a thread like this it's bound to happen. Was good knowing you all.


----------



## antoniomare007

actually i agree with alot of your points







(the Velvet Sky one is ludicrous though )


----------



## KingCrash

Tarfu said:


> - FIP and WXW are most times unwatchable because of the crowds. I hate them with a passion.


I think I'm about the only one who likes/can tolerate WXW's crowds most of the time. Again, I'd rather have crazy German drunk fans then ones so quite you can hear every spot being called.


----------



## CM Skittle

lol, Sorry everyone but it is supposed to be controversial opinions! And someone asked me in private if I was just trolling and no I really think all of that stuff. I usually just don't bring it up that often because I've had arguments about CHIKARA/DGUSA and how much I hate them 1000 times so I don't like talking about it since it's the same thing every time


----------



## smitlick

Tarfu has given me ideas

10. Highspots also itself sucks as well as its extravagant postage prices
11. Gabe Sapolsky isn't the Booking God everyone seems to think he is but hes still better then Pearce
12. A lot of the Chikara guys really aren't great and like Chucky T need to get out and explore some decent promotions in the US and Overseas to further there knowledge and selling as it seems Quack isn't big on teaching Selling.


----------



## bme

- A majority of ROH is sh*t.
- Chikara is dreadful without the usual big storyline (BDK, Chikara Special).
- Mike Quackenbush is overrated.
- if you've seen one Dragon Gate 6man, you've seen em all.
- Tyler Black is bad
- After their first promo, the AOTF storyline took a nosedive.
- Jerry Lynn is bland and uninteresting.


----------



## jawbreaker

bme said:


> - A majority of ROH is sh*t.
> - Chikara is dreadful without the usual big storyline (BDK, Chikara Special).
> - Mike Quackenbush is overrated.
> - if you've seen one Dragon Gate 6man, you've seen em all.
> - Tyler Black is bad
> - After their first promo, the AOTF storyline took a nosedive.
> - Jerry Lynn is bland and uninteresting.


These are unpopular?


----------



## couturecorpse

1)randy orton is just as boring as john cena
2)chikara is horrible.
3)maryse is beyond ugly, i have no idea what people see in her
4)tna > wwe in its current state.


----------



## McQueen

-I agree with CM Skittle to an extent on his first point but moreso because I don't dig the vibe/gimmicks in CHIKARA instead of saying everyone in the company sucks which isn't completely true. I like Chuck Taylor. 

-Davey Richards is the most overrated wrestler in the world x50 and i'm including Kurt Angle.

-SAL RINAURO OWNS and is the most underrated guy on the indies, he unfortunately was born 15 years too late and is on the small side even for an indy guy. Guy would have been great in Memphis or JCP back in the day and is now just underappreciated.

-Kennedy/Anderson is complete trash. 

-Hogan doesn't suck, but he does need to stop having matches.


----------



## jawbreaker

Tarfu, Serena is about 15x hotter bald.

Some more for me:

9. The first DG six-man was overrated and the second and third were almost unwatchable.
10. Paul London circa 2003 was the best American indy wrestler ever.
11. Christina Von Eerie is the hottest woman in wrestling.
12. Hardy vs. Punk from Summerslam last year was ***1/2 at best.


----------



## joeysnotright

Tarfu said:


> Skittle, you broke my heart. :sad:
> 
> 
> 
> Correction: Highspots' _shipping prices_ are shit. Now we can agree.
> 
> And here goes...
> 
> - The Dragon Gate six-man from SCOH III was a struggle to watch.
> - FIP and WXW are most times unwatchable because of the crowds. I hate them with a passion.
> - PWG circa 2005-2007 > 2008-2010.
> - Super Dragon is awesome.
> - None of WWE MITB's ladder matches deserved four-plus star ratings.
> - Dixie Carter is not hot.
> - Serena (Deeb) looks better bald.
> - Velvet Sky's looks are overrated
> - Shad Gaspard vs. JTG (Strap Match) from Extreme Rules was fun.
> - People take the use of The Burning Hammer way too seriously.
> - Gabe Sapolsky ruined McGuinness' world title reign.
> - The final match between Danielson and McGuinness was disappointing on so many levels.
> - Ladder War II and Glory By Honor VIII in its entirety are overrated. Big time.
> - Todd Grisham and Josh Mathews are better commentators than Matt Striker.
> - Cody Rhodes' previous entrance music was one of the best themes ever.
> - Chris Benoit was framed (OH SNAP!!1).
> 
> ...more to come.
> 
> I realize most of you hate me now, but with a thread like this it's bound to happen. Was good knowing you all.


This.


----------



## Yeah1993

WCW said:


> threads called unpopular wrestling opinions not feech la mannas wrestling opinions


man wth you on my case for???

btw I disagree with him on a lot of things.

edit- PS if he has a problem with it CaliGula should post.


----------



## Horselover Fat

im not on your case i love you yeah1993

edit: he says he isnt coming back until headliner puts a 45 at the end of his name like michael jordan


----------



## Yeah1993

<3

Headliner45 has a ring to it.


----------



## Horselover Fat

feech la manna wants to know what you disagree with him on


----------



## Yeah1993

MNM/Hardys rr07 being better than any HBK match ever.


----------



## Horselover Fat

thats it


----------



## Yeah1993

No not at all. There's a huge bunch of stuff I could come up with when i feel like it. That was an example.


----------



## Horselover Fat




----------



## lewieG

Kane is boring. 

Orton needs a good opponent to have a good match, so his match at SummerSlam will probably be dissapointing. Thankfully the crowd reaction for his matches make them watchable because he;s over like Jesus.

Drew McIntyre is a great heel and an awesome performer. But Dolph Ziggler is still a little better.

Ted Dibiase is a cookie cutter wrestler in the ring. I want to see him become Cody Rhodes' manager.


----------



## Casey Jones

- Chikara is the best promotion in the US

- ROH has gotten stale over the past couple of years

- WWE hasn't been good since '04

- TNA plain sucks

- Attitude Era was terrible for the most part

- CM Punk is garbage in the ring and on the mic

- Some of WCW's generic ripoff themes were better than the original songs (Raven, Jericho, etc.)


----------



## SludgeHammer

1. Colt Cabana, and by extension all "comedy" wrestling, is utter shit and wastes time on a card.

2. The PWG commentators play a massive part in why their shows are so great to watch.

3. RoH hasn't been worth watching, a couple of shows aside, in nearly 5 years.

4. Spot-fest matches and IWC-dubbed "spot-monkeys are one of the best things about pro-wrestling.

5. Deathmatch wrestling is awesome. If these fucktards are stupid enough to do it then you can be damn sure I'm going to watch it.

6. TNA and WWE both put out highly entertaining TV shows.

7. The original ECW is the best promotion that has ever been.


----------



## Prowler

- AJ Styles once was the best wrestler in the world, and he is still great.
- Modern Indy Wrestling(ROH,PWG,Chikara,Evolve,Dragon Gate USA)is easily the best thing in the wrestling right now.
- Japanese shows are unwatchable,they have 1-2 great matches usually in the main-event,but undercard is just atrocious
- Storytelling is overused term,if the match has story,it does not automatically mean that it is great. 
- CZW 2002-2005>ECW


----------



## smitlick

SludgeHammer said:


> 1. Colt Cabana, and by extension all "comedy" wrestling, is utter shit and wastes time on a card.
> 
> 2. The PWG commentators play a massive part in why their shows are so great to watch.
> 
> 3. RoH hasn't been worth watching, a couple of shows aside, in nearly 5 years.
> 
> 4. Spot-fest matches and IWC-dubbed "spot-monkeys are one of the best things about pro-wrestling.
> 
> 5. Deathmatch wrestling is awesome. If these fucktards are stupid enough to do it then you can be damn sure I'm going to watch it.
> 
> 6. TNA and WWE both put out highly entertaining TV shows.
> 
> 7. The original ECW is the best promotion that has ever been.


You do realise you shit on Comedy wrestling but enjoy comedy announcers...


----------



## RizoRiz

1. Chris Hero & Prince Devitt are the best current wrestlers
2. Hayabusa wasn't that great
3. Owen Hart was more naturally gifted than Bret, Benoit and Dynamite Kid
4. Shinjiro Otani is the greatest Junior ever
5. CM Punk & Chris Jericho are to sloppy to be considered anywhere near the best at the moment
6. Sgt. Slaughter is top 20 of all-time
7. Randy Savage is the greatest wrestler to come from North America
8. Jumbo Tsuruta is the greatest wrestler of all-time
9. Chikara is awful
10. ROH >>> PWG
11. Rob Van Dam vs Dan Kroffat >>>> any of the Dynamite Kid vs Tiger Mask matches
12. The Rock was terrible


----------



## Yeah1993

> 11. Rob Van Dam vs Dan Kroffat >>>> any of the Dynamite Kid vs Tiger Mask matches


I agree w/ that one. It's better than every RVD/Lynn match too.


----------



## smitlick

RizoRiz said:


> 1. Chris Hero & Prince Devitt are the best current wrestlers
> 2. Hayabusa wasn't that great
> 3. Owen Hart was more naturally gifted than Bret, Benoit and Dynamite Kid
> 4. Shinjiro Otani is the greatest Junior ever
> 5. CM Punk & Chris Jericho are to sloppy to be considered anywhere near the best at the moment
> 6. Sgt. Slaughter is top 20 of all-time
> 7. Randy Savage is the greatest wrestler to come from North America
> 8. Jumbo Tsuruta is the greatest wrestler of all-time
> 9. Chikara is awful
> 10. ROH >>> PWG
> 11. Rob Van Dam vs Dan Kroffat >>>> any of the Dynamite Kid vs Tiger Mask matches
> 12. The Rock was terrible


Hayabusa was fun to watch cause of his flips and shit but pretty average overall so I'd agree with you there.


----------



## SludgeHammer

smitlick said:


> You do realise you shit on Comedy wrestling but enjoy comedy announcers...


Absolutely, it's just that wrestling is innately funny (in an enjoyable way, not a piss-take way) to me, even in it's most stoic forms and I enjoy commentary that shares that view.


----------



## Bubz

-Tyler Black is a great wrestler

-Jimmy Jacobs matches are completely boring

-RVD vs Lynn matches are overrated

-Young Bucks are overrated

-CHIKARA SUCKS


----------



## gohel50

1. John Cena is much better than Randy Orton. Even John Morrison is.
2. Kane & Rey Mysterio are boring.
3. CM Punk won't be remembered in 20 years.
4. Justin Gabriel will be WWE top face in 2 years from now.


----------



## Goatlord

1.) AJ is just as good in the ring as Danielson, he's basically the aerial equivalent to him. 

2.) Both WWE and TNA are entertaining for the most part.

3.) CMLL is boring, don't like the pace of their matches at all.

4.) Daniels should stay in ROH. Why return to TNA and barely get airtime and not that much more money than in the indies when he can be a focal point of ROH and do what he is best at, wrestling for 30 mins+.

5.) The Nexus storyline is still interesting.

6.) Powerwrestling is a nice style when it's based on high impact moves rather than brawling.

7.) RVD is the worst TNA champion in a long time. He doesn't even seem to care about it, if a big name doesn't respect a major belt it makes the whole company look smaller than it is.

@SludgeHammer: Are you into doom by any chance


----------



## Samee

Looking at this thread, there's unpopular opinions and then there's just plain stupid.


----------



## freeway222

bubz123 said:


> -Tyler Black is a great wrestler
> 
> -Jimmy Jacobs matches are completely boring
> 
> -RVD vs Lynn matches are overrated
> 
> -Young Bucks are overrated
> 
> *-CHIKARA SUCKS*


HeLLLLL fuckin' yeah. 

Is that really unpopular though?


----------



## baseballplayah63

- I enjoy spotfests and hardcore matches and can't stand when people bitch about anyone who does the style like they're such a bad person and say it's "unrealistic" even though any kind of offense in wrestling is unrealistic. I can like any kind of wrestling as long as it's entertaining and not overdone (even technical wrestling can be overdone IMO)

- Matt Morgan and Mr. Anderson are both pretty awful. I have no idea why TNA fans like them so much. Every Anderson promo sounds like he's ranting about nothing and Matt Morgan is just mediocre on the mic. And in the ring, Anderson is rarely good and I've never seen a good match out of Morgan. (even his match with Kurt Angle) Why people want them pushed I will never know.

- Beer Money is vastly overrated. now don't get me wrong, they're a solid team but I think AMW was much better. I haven't really seen too many impressive matches from Beer Money if any up until this feud with the Guns yet AMW was having awesome matches left and right. Maybe it's just because I'm noy sold on Robert Roode. Chris Harris was a much better wrestler than Roode IMO.

- I enjoy lucha libre. I know a lot of people don't like the style but I love the fast pace of it and they do a great job of building new stars as well and also do a nice job of mixing in high spots, hardcore and even technical wrestling while making a good portion of their matches exciting.

- Dave Prazak is not a good announcer. I love that he knows move names and stuff but he has such a dry personality and ever time he tries to play a heel he comes off as insanely cheesy and unnatural. i think he might work on a 3 person team to just chime in with a move name and something about psychology but other than that I think he is opretty bad.


----------



## MachoMuta

TNA are more entertaining then WWE.
The Nexus storyline sucks


----------



## Sephiroth

CM Skittle said:


> -CHIKARA is the WORST wrestling fed, it's like TNA without any talented wrestlers.
> -Bryan Danielson isn't helping the indies, he's just making himself look pathetic. I really don't care if WWE even takes him back any more
> -Chuck Taylor sucks, he's not even a wrestler he's just a wannabe comedian in a wrestling ring. He's improved in the last year but he's still the worst wrestler I've ever seen tied with Player Uno
> -Paul London is a bitter loser who's just jealous of other wrestlers who could actually get over
> -PWG has the worst announcing ever, it sounds like a bunch of drunks rambling about nothing half of the time. And I dunno if this is controversial but CHIKARA has the best announcing
> -90% of indy wrestling comedy is only funny to nerds. Some of it is funny but lame video game references and stuff like that?? Soo nerdy and lame.





freeway222 said:


> Is that really unpopular though?


You can usually tell what the general opinion is because CM Skittle will say the opposite.

I've said it once and I'll say it again, she's a good poster...but she doesn't realize that she's trolling.


----------



## CM Skittle

Shut up Sephy, stop saying that. News flash if I wanted to troll I'd be posting that stuff in the CHIKARA Season 9 topic, not in the controversial wrestling opinions thread.


----------



## -Mystery-

I'm still wondering what makes Danielson pathetic.


----------



## CM Skittle

Like two months ago he was having tens of thousands of people chant his name during the main event of a pay per view by the biggest wrestling fed in the world... now he's wrestling Bobby Fish in front of 100 people for some no name fed. Sorry I just think it's pathetic, I understand that he wants to wrestle but why not wrestle for feds that actually matter


----------



## KaijuFan

That's like saying it's pathetic I did too good on a test, got kicked out of college for it, then I went to another college to continue my education.

Get back in the kitchen.


----------



## -Mystery-

CM Skittle said:


> Like two months ago he was having tens of thousands of people chant his name during the main event of a pay per view by the biggest wrestling fed in the world... now he's wrestling Bobby Fish in front of 100 people for some no name fed. Sorry I just think it's pathetic, I understand that he wants to wrestle but why not wrestle for feds that actually matter


For one, he's doing a favor for his very good friend, Gabe. Not exactly sure how being loyal is pathetic. 

Secondly, "why not wrestle for feds that actually matter." HE IS. He just worked DG USA and is booked for PWG. ROH hasn't brought him back yet because Cary and Pearce likely don't want to bring him back only for him to return to the WWE a month later. No reason to spoil his farewell if it's only gonna be for one match, just look at Joe's one shot return.


----------



## antoniomare007

> Like two months ago he was having tens of thousands of people chant his name during the main event of a pay per view by the biggest wrestling fed in the world... now he's wrestling Bobby Fish in front of 100 people for some no name fed. Sorry I just think it's pathetic, I understand that he wants to wrestle but why not wrestle for feds that actually matter


besides WWE, there aren't feds that actually matter anymore...and right now, he CAN'T wrestle for "bigger" indy or international promotions thanks to the 90 days no compete clause.


to stay on topic, Hase & Sasaki vs Steiners is MADLY overrated


----------



## seancarleton77

Go Shiozaki should come back to Ring of Honor with Larry Sweeney as his mouthpiece win the World Title and go on a tear that makes Morishima's run as Champion look like nothing.

Also Go Shiozaki and Shinsuke Nakamura are WAY better than all the other heavyweights in Japan.


----------



## FITZ

CM Skittle said:


> Like two months ago he was having tens of thousands of people chant his name during the main event of a pay per view by the biggest wrestling fed in the world... now he's wrestling Bobby Fish in front of 100 people for some no name fed. Sorry I just think it's pathetic, I understand that he wants to wrestle but why not wrestle for feds that actually matter


Hey, I was there for that and there were at least *200* people!


----------



## CM Skittle

-Mystery- said:


> For one, he's doing a favor for his very good friend, Gabe. Not exactly sure how being loyal is pathetic.
> 
> Secondly, "why not wrestle for feds that actually matter." HE IS. He just worked DG USA and is booked for PWG. ROH hasn't brought him back yet because Cary and Pearce likely don't want to bring him back only for him to return to the WWE a month later. No reason to spoil his farewell if it's only gonna be for one match, just look at Joe's one shot return.


That's another thing, Bryan Danielson talks about how he wants to help the indy scene and then he uses his semi-fame to help a booker that tries to SUE indy wrestlers?? Right, support people who sue the indy wrestlers killing themselves for our entertainment, great job Bryan. And I didn't know he was booked for PWG, that's a good start but DGUSA doesn't matter. (Maybe that's another controversial opinion there too, lol)


----------



## Sephiroth

Skittles, I know you hate being called a troll, but what you do sometimes is trolling. Your opinions are fine, but its in the way that you say things

For example: "CHIKARA SUCKS AND EVERYONE WHO WRESTLES THERE ARE AWFUL WRESTLERS THAT AREN'T EVEN AS GOOD AS THE GREAT KHALI AND THE COMEDY WRESTLING SUCKS. CHUCK TAYLOR IS A JOKE."

It doesn't even come off as an opinion. You sound so matter of fact like what you are saying is the whole damn truth. Also, you can't grasp that people have other opinions so you always have to call people on what they say or get in their faces for having a different opinion.

*patiently waits to be called an asshole by Skittles*


----------



## antoniomare007

CM Skittle said:


> And I didn't know he was booked for PWG, that's a good start but DGUSA doesn't matter. (Maybe that's another controversial opinion there too, lol)


again, he can't work in other promotions (90 days no compete), what do you want the guy to do, nothing?? really????


----------



## erikstans07

-WWE is very enjoyable at the moment. I think that the reason people still say it's "shit", is because they don't watch it anymore or they don't know what they want. They're pushing new and young talent. They're trying new things. They're putting out great PPV cards. RAW is at its best. NXT is an awesome concept. Superstars has at least 1 or 2 good matches each week. Smackdown is lead by Rey, Punk, Swagger, Ziggler, Christian and McIntyre. Please people, give WWE a chance. How many of you still watch it?

PWG is definitely better than ROH and is easily the best indy promotion at the moment. 2009 was pure greatness and they're showing no signs of stopping that.


----------



## McQueen

I don't watch it on a week to week basis but it still doesn't hold my interest like it used too. However it does seem to be getting better than it has been in the last few years.


----------



## andy-500

1. Drew McIntyre has quite easily been the best thing on Smackdown in 2010. From a CM Punk mark. 
2. Undertaker is worse for the WWE than Triple H. He isn't even good and just squashes people.
3. Matt Morgan is awful... and I mean just awful.
4. Same goes for Michael Tarver.
5. TNA and WWE are both better than they've been in years right now.
6. Desmond Wolfe doesn't deserve to be anywhere near the main event in TNA.
7. ECW's 'best' matches all tend to be dissapointing. (I never watched it at the time, but from what I've seen looking back)

Just off the top of my head. I'm sure I'll think of more.


----------



## -Mystery-

CM Skittle said:


> That's another thing, Bryan Danielson talks about how he wants to help the indy scene and then he uses his semi-fame to help a booker that tries to SUE indy wrestlers?? Right, support people who sue the indy wrestlers killing themselves for our entertainment, great job Bryan. And I didn't know he was booked for PWG, that's a good start but DGUSA doesn't matter. (Maybe that's another controversial opinion there too, lol)


He is helping the indy scene. He's making people like Bobby fucking Fish look 10 times better than they truly are. 

Danielson doesn't give a fuck about the politics of the business. He's friends with Gabe and Gabe's always been there for him.


----------



## Redwood

1. According to Bischoff, the X-Division are nothing but "vanilla midgets" doing moonsaults for twenty minutes. In layman's terms, they are nothing but spotmonkeys.
2. ECW from 2007-2010 was actually good when you look back on it.
3. Undertaker squashes talent and doesn't give them the rub.
4. Russo logic: "If you want lucha libre, go to Japan".
5. ROH is boring because all they do is wrestle. The irony of that statement, right?

There's more, but these five are from the top of my head.


----------



## SHIRLEY

seancarleton77 said:


> Go Shiozaki should come back to Ring of Honor with Larry Sweeney as his mouthpiece win the World Title and go on a tear that makes Morishima's run as Champion look like nothing.
> 
> Also Go Shiozaki and Shinsuke Nakamura are WAY better than all the other heavyweights in Japan.


Shiozaki w/Sweeney vs. Roderick w/Truth?


----------



## mblonde09

CM Punk is better on the mic than Jericho.
In terms of pure wrestling, Michelle McCool > Beth Phoenix.


----------



## seancarleton77

Shirley Crabtree said:


> Shiozaki w/Sweeney vs. Roderick w/Truth?


Hell yeah! One can't speak English.... the other is Go Shiozaki. That match would be 29 kinds of awesome.


----------



## GOD OF CUNT

smitlick said:


> Ok mine
> 
> 1. A Majority of Lucha Libre is SHIT no selling no sense crap and mexicans are crazy for thinking its a legit sport.


This isn't really an unpopular opinion as opposed to a fucking stupid one. 



Tarfu said:


> - Todd Grisham and Josh Matthews are better commentators than Matt Striker.


Matthews is the best commentator in the company, largely because his "competition" sucks hard (Grisham is second, probably). Cole and Lawler are garbage and Stryker needs face fucked by a huge animal, preferably a whale or George Clooney.


----------



## Horselover Fat

^^^^^
Lucha is 7 minute matches on nitro


----------



## GOD OF CUNT

And El Dandy was some little job guy from Ixtapa.


----------



## Horselover Fat

Yeah1993 have you thought of more ways you disagree with feech la manna yet


----------



## Yeah1993

I disagree about how he feels about Shawn Michaels, "hhh", Dean Malenko, Bret Hart, etc. And there's a ton of matches he considers better than every HBK match ever that i don't think is better than every HBK match ever. Plus there's a lot of matches he's wrote about in the Last Match watched & 2000-2009 threads that he thought wasn;t that great that I thought were good/really good.

Agree with him about the When World's Collide tag though. I can add that to this thread, actually. It's not that great and if meltzer didn't give it ***** it wouldn;t be a hugely praised match. The fact it's the only Mexican match Dave The Great gave 5 is CRIMINAL too.


----------



## Horselover Fat

Do you like Dean Malenko or Joe Malenko more?


----------



## Yeah1993

only seen Joe in a couple of tags so Dean. he was good though.


----------



## FITZ

-Mystery- said:


> He is helping the indy scene. He's making people like Bobby fucking Fish look 10 times better than they truly are.
> 
> Danielson doesn't give a fuck about the politics of the business. He's friends with Gabe and Gabe's always been there for him.


The fact that Bobby Fish was just mentioned in a thread by someone other then me shows that Danielson is helping getting indy wrestlers more well known. 

And my unpopular opinions. 

RVD is shit. If I never had to see him wrestle again I would be happy. The more I watch of him the less and less I like him. 

Death Match wrestling can be awesome even with untalented guys in the match.

Japanese crowds suck. 

FIP is barley watchable most of the time.

Homicide isn't really all that good.


----------



## xHartxLegacyx

Undertaker is overrated.[Everyone disagrees.]


----------



## CM Skittle

TaylorFitz said:


> The fact that Bobby Fish was just mentioned in a thread by someone other then me shows that Danielson is helping getting indy wrestlers more well known.


Umm.. I'm the one who brought up Bobby Fish first, and only to point out how pathetic Danielson is for wrestling someone who belongs on an ROH pre-show.


----------



## KingCrash

Whether Fish is the guy Danielson should be wrestling is a different issue then Danielson wrestling in Evolve. Look, we all know that unless something strange happens, he's going back to WWE. So if you're an indy why not bring him in to do a show and see if you can't either have a great match with a high-profile guy he hasn't faced yet or try to get an unknown guy over by having a match with him. 


And despite the great matches he's had since he's been champ, I'm still not feeling Black's reign so far.


----------



## The BoogeyMan

> Umm.. I'm the one who brought up Bobby Fish first, and only to point out how pathetic Danielson is for wrestling someone who belongs on an ROH pre-show.


Danielson posted something on twitter a little while ago saying he CHOSE to face Fish because he's a good wrestler and see's big things for him. If Danielson is indeed going back to the WWE then why not get a few guys over while he's on hiatus?


My Unpopular Opinions:

Triple H's politics persona has been blown waaaaaay out of proportion. 

WWE & TNA have been really good for some time now. I know a lot of WWE fans who tuned in t o TNA once like two years ago and now won't tune in again, though the last 8-12 weeks have actually been really good TV. Victory Road was one of the best PPV's of the last few years and nearly every match was great.

While I enjoy the Nexus storyline and I enjoy his participation and leadership of it, Wade Barett could be used so much better right now.

Skip Sheffield could be the WWE's next big powerhouse/big guy. 

Scott Hall has never been interesting to me.

Kevin Nash is still, to this day, interesting to me and one of the most comfortable-on-TV wrestlers going.

Living in the UK I find companies like ROH/DGUSA/CHIKARA (most Indies) really hard to get a hold of. Someone gave me a link to ROH's youtube page which makes better but I CBA with spending half an hour downloading one match for a show I don't know. Being a wrestling fan for so long I feel like I'd love Indy wrestling but I never get round to it. Anyone know any youtube channels or sites that host matches straight off?

"spotmonkey" wrestling is just as much of a part of wrestling itself as hardcore or technical wrestling. When you look at the history of wrestling around the world, there's enough of it around to have established a legacy and I seriously don't get where the whole "technical wrestling is superior to all" thing has come from. Personally I enjoy spot wrestling because it brings me back to the times where I was just a fan and I didn't need to overevaluate everything. (Though it should be noted I do still enjoy technical wrestling. I'm just stating a point.)

Guys who can't wrestle a great match (Khali or a lot of big men) still have a place in pro wrestling. Wrestling is a business and they make more money from mark fans (who love seeing David vs Goliath (or their homecountry hero like Khali)) than seeing two skinny guys have a technical match. Thought with guys like FCW's Jackson Andrews you have the gimmick/size matched with the ring ability, but that's another story altogether.

I expected that by 2010, wrestling would have grown up and gotten over the whole "Oh you're Scottish? Well have a kilt!"/"Oh you're black? Here's a gold chain & some rap entrance theme" thing. Yes there are exceptions but they shouldn't be the minority. 

The PG rating is a neccessary action to preserve the next Attitude Era, which I'd wager will have started by (MINIMUM) 2015. Wrestling works in cycles and when the audience grows up, so does the content.

Despite what the IWC says, there is a lot more to be happy about and to enjoy in wrestling than to be dissapointed by.


----------



## Martyn

- Women wrestling should be removed from any wrestling shows.
- The Best WWE/F year is 2004. 
- Ric Flair still is awesome.
- Sting always have more energy, charisma and better ring skills than Undertaker.
- ROH since 2008 sucks. 
- Sheamus is great addiction in WWEs main events. 
- Randy Orton is great on the microfone and segments, but he've very bad ring skills.
- Undertaker WrestleMania streak is a joke. 
- Evan Bourne shouldnt get a big push.


----------



## jawbreaker

The BoogeyMan said:


> Living in the UK I find companies like ROH/DGUSA/CHIKARA (most Indies) really hard to get a hold of. Someone gave me a link to ROH's youtube page which makes better but I CBA with spending half an hour downloading one match for a show I don't know. Being a wrestling fan for so long I feel like I'd love Indy wrestling but I never get round to it. Anyone know any youtube channels or sites that host matches straight off?


http://www.wrestlingforum.com/indy-media/428674-roh-good-shit-archive.html

Find some matches there that are playable on Megavideo. Some other threads in the indy media forum will often have Megavideo-compatible links.


----------



## Pinball Wizard Graves

WM25: Taker vs. HBK does not crack the top 20 matches of the last 5 years in my book. The match is SEVERELY overrated.


----------



## RizoRiz

All CM Skittle had to say really was "I FUCKING HATE GABE SAPOLSKY!!!!! Grrr."

I guess reading seancarleton's post this could be considered an unpopular opinion also- Tanahashi >>>> Shiozaki and Nakamura.

Bret Hart vs British Bulldog from Season's Beating's is on a whole other levelto the Summerslam match (although thats probably due to the fact WWF/E fans don't know enough about it.

Chris Hero as a complete package over any other wrestler right now.

Just reiterate the fact, Hayabusa....not a fan, Otani you're the best.

I also can't fucking stand KENTA, just something about him. Saying that Nakajima will rise to a level above KENTA, probably Fujita Jr. aswell.

Devitt>>>>Marufuji.

HHH's prime >>> Austin and The Rock. Even if HHH's best only lasted 2 or 3 years.

Big Van Vader >>>> Stan Hansen (not so sure if this would be considered unpopular.)


----------



## just1988

xHartxLegacyx said:


> Undertaker is overrated.[Everyone disagrees.]


I agree, he is over-rated. He's a great worker, but everybody thinks he's like the 2nd coming of Christ or somethin


----------



## bloodletting

The BoogeyMan said:


> Danielson posted something on twitter a little while ago saying he CHOSE to face Fish because he's a good wrestler and see's big things for him.


yeah, its cool of Danielson to give the rub to what he sees as a new talent. Its how you build new talent. Black's rise was built on the backs of the existing great workers at ROH. Hell, Flair-Sting Clash of the Champions 1. Sting was in opening card tag matches after the UWF/WCW merger....not since


Back to the thread theme...

Other than Sara Del Rey, I could not care less about woman's wrestling today


----------



## Green

Deathmatches, hardcore matches, and any match where weapons are legal should be banned forever.

AJ Styles is shite.


----------



## erikstans07

-Cody Rhodes and Ted DiBiase Jr are A LOT better than people give them credit for. Its not fair to compare them to their fathers. Give them a chance. Their current gimmicks are working great for them.

-I personally, think TNA and WWE consistently put out great PPV's last year. The only bad one was Destination X, which was horribly bad.

-I don't know if this is unpopular, but I don't like BxB Hulk.

-I still enjoy the Briscoe's. I don't see how they suck now but used to be good. They're still good.

-Last year, I watched a lot of Puro, but I got pretty bored of it. Other than the best of the best, its all basically the same.

Gotta think of some more and I'll be back.


----------



## ToddTheBod

1. Most people in WCW were awful on the mic.
2. Very few people could cut a good promo Pre-Attitude Era in WWE/F. Most mic work before then was so awful.
3. Chris Hero could be exactly what TNA needs.
4. Chris Hero could be exactly what WWE needs.


----------



## freeway222

ToddTheBod said:


> 1. Most people in WCW were awful on the mic.
> *2. Very few people could cut a good promo Pre-Attitude Era in WWE/F. Most mic work before then was so awful.*
> 3. Chris Hero could be exactly what TNA needs.
> 4. Chris Hero could be exactly what WWE needs.


Hope you're not including War-E-AAA (Warrior).


----------



## jawbreaker

RizoRiz said:


> Chris Hero as a complete package over any other wrestler right now.


Thinking about it, I'm not sure I disagree. Then again I don't watch WWE so I don't know how good Punk and Jericho really are.


----------



## McQueen

I've thought Chris Hero has been pretty close to a complete package for quite some time now and I think he would work much better in the WWE/TNA than he does in the indies where they would limit the time he would get to work a match. My biggest problem with the guy is he tends to drag some of his matches on by throwing in unnessessary extra stuff, still a fan though.


----------



## -Mystery-

I still say Punk is the guy right now. He might not be the World Champ or in the main event, but he's the standard for complete package and has been since last summer. Just one of those dudes that busts their ass regardless of their card position, which is hard to find nowadays.


----------



## McQueen

*Insert random Dark Church hate here*


----------



## -Mystery-

Really hope they take the strap off Kane when he feuds with Taker so Punker can get another reign. Imagine the heat he'd get with SES saving his ass and title every PPV.


----------



## Thomazbr

- Claudio Castagnoli is probally the best powerhouse of the bussines right now, how he isnt in WWE is mind boggling

- Chris Hero is awesome, but his longer matches are kinda boring

- Love Chikara

- I Like Bobby Fish


----------



## EZT Mark

I like the Undertaker


----------



## McQueen

-Mystery- said:


> Really hope they take the strap off Kane when he feuds with Taker so Punker can get another reign. Imagine the heat he'd get with SES saving his ass and title every PPV.


That would be awesome.


----------



## jdsricks

If The Four Horsemen doesn't include Tully Blanchard...they aren't worth shit.

The greatest tagteam of all time is the Midnight Express (Eaton/Lane).

Randy Orton is very over-rated in the ring.

Deathmatch wrestling should be made illegal.


----------



## -Mystery-

Oh let me contribute a bit, the 2003 AMW/Triple X cage match trounces the 2004 cage match. The AMW/Naturals cage match might be better than the 2004 AMW/Triple X cage match too.


----------



## erikstans07

Here's two more:

I wish I could never see Tommy Dreamer again.

The second one is probably a pretty popular opinion, but I hate the "we want tables" chant whenever the dudleys are in the ring. I'm sure they get so annoyed by it. I know its their gimmick people, but really? Right at the start of a regular tag match that's not No DQ? Let them have their match.

Oh, another. I still enjoy the Dudley's. In small doses, mind you. Given the right opponents, they can have very entertaining matches. Also, Bubba is one of the best mic workers in the business.


----------



## Tarfu

erikstans has some good points. WWE has been very enjoyable for the past few months, although I can't say that about most PPVs. People that've turned away should really give it another chance, at least the weekly programming. 

And your Legacy praise reminded me:

Cody Rhodes is close to the most entertaining thing going on Smackdown at the moment. His in-ring skills are top-notch, the "Dashing" character works perfectly and he's pretty much loaded with natural charisma and verbal skills. The only thing he needs is kneepads (now that's a popular opinion) because his legs look too skinny without. Or he could just start doing some squats.


----------



## MBL

- Sports Entertainment is more entertaining than flat out wrestling. 
- More 6 man tags, triple threat, fatal fourways etc should be elimination matches.
- The most interesting part of pro wrestling is character/gimmick development. 
- I mark out for young up and comers more than "legendary icons". 
- Up and comer vs. veteran matches are the most entertaining. I would rather watch The Undertaker vs. Wade Barrett than The Undertaker vs. John Cena etc. 
- Presentation of a wrestling show is more important that what actually happens in the ring. 
- TNA's clusterfuck booking is actually intriguing. 
- Cody Rhode's new gimmick is awesome.
- Spot monkeys fucking rule. 
- ROH tag team matches all follow the same formula and get boring.
- The member of Nexus with the most potential after Barrett is Skip Sheffield. 

That's it for now, but I have many more ofcourse.


----------



## daman077c

CZW is utter shit.
Women's wrestling, when done correctly, can be just as entertaining (if not more entertaining) as the male stuff.
CHIKARA is possibly the best indy in the US right now.


----------



## TheBusiness

Japanese wrestling sucks

Batista / undertaker beats hbk / cena at wrestlemania 23, was one of batistas better matches, and for some reason loved this match, maybe if i rewatched it i would think differently

Every young talent in the wwe currently, for example punk and miz, would be nothing more than mid carders in the attitude era

The attitude era wouldn't have been anywhere near as good if it wasn't for wcw

Michael Cole isn't as bad as people say

Wrestling will never ever peak to the level of the Monday night wars, the late 90s in general

Wrestling isn't about fucking money, and the damn business side of things, and it's not about the damn ratings the show gets, its about what i see on my television screen, and on that note this full forum is obsessed with both.


----------



## jpchicago23

Heel AJ Styles sucks and sucks bad
Joe vs. Kobashi is 4 stars not 5
Benoit vs Angle>Punk vs. Joe
ROH>any indy fed
TNA sucked even before Hogan came aboard except a few guys
ECW will always be the best indy promotion of all time as it essentially created the attitude era 
Cornette is the best wrestling mind currently in the business


----------



## Yeah1993

-Trish and Lita were horrid in the ring and contributed nothing to wrestling.
-Benoit's match with 2 Cold Scorpio in 93 is better than any match he had with Angle.
-The Angle/Benoit Cage is really, really awful. Austin, Taker, Rey and Lesnar were all better opponents for Angle than Benoit was.
-kennedy's crap on the mic.
-Hogan's not that bad as a worker.
-Andre's almost *great* as a worker when you look at the right matches.
-The Rock isn;t a top 10 mic worker.
-Raven wasn;t that great either.
-Matt Striker is a fucking terrible commentator.
-Spotfests are crap.
-HHH is a better worker than The Rock.
-Sting's overrated bar a few matches. 
-Sean O'Haire sucked.
-NAO were even worse.
-Being a draw means nothing.
-The Dudleys are shit and always will be.


----------



## jawbreaker

DX was never good in any form. Ever.


----------



## jpchicago23

Raven and Goldust were the top gimmicks of all time for their company
JBL wasnt that bad
Jeff Hardy is trash on the mic and in the ring
Vader is the best super heavyweight of all time
Rick Martel was just as good as anyone in the early 90's WWF
Great gimmicks make bad workers tolerable/enjoyable


----------



## FITZ

MBL said:


> - Sports Entertainment is more entertaining than flat out wrestling.
> - More 6 man tags, triple threat, fatal fourways etc should be elimination matches.
> - The most interesting part of pro wrestling is character/gimmick development.
> - I mark out for young up and comers more than "legendary icons".
> - Up and comer vs. veteran matches are the most entertaining. I would rather watch The Undertaker vs. Wade Barrett than The Undertaker vs. John Cena etc.
> - Presentation of a wrestling show is more important that what actually happens in the ring.
> - TNA's clusterfuck booking is actually intriguing.
> - Cody Rhode's new gimmick is awesome.
> *- Spot monkeys fucking rule.
> - ROH tag team matches all follow the same formula and get boring.*
> - The member of Nexus with the most potential after Barrett is Skip Sheffield.
> 
> That's it for now, but I have many more ofcourse.


I feel like you're contradicting yourself with that one because it seems every ROH tag match just ends up breaking down into a spotfest. 



TheBusiness said:


> Japanese wrestling sucks


That's a tough one to back up. I mean there is literally every kind of promotion in Japan. I have a hard time overcoming the cultural barrier, as in I don't understand any of the back story behind anything but I can still appreciate a great match regardless of where it takes place.

Oh and here's one more:

Watching an entire wrestling show in one sitting is really hard to do. Look I love wrestling but I don't enjoy sitting and watching it for 3 hours (sometimes more). It usually takes me at least 2 days to watch a show and there are a lot of times when I just give up on a show for no real reason.


----------



## We'veSeenaNuff

- Vader is the best WWF wrestler to never hold a world title.
- Skinner wasn't that bad. 
- Owen Hart wouldn't have drawn with the WWF Title in 1998. 
- Ken Shamrock *would have*.
- Al Snow is the secret best worker of the Attitude Era. 
- Barry Wendham was awesome in his 1999 run in WCW. 
- WCW Thunder was awesome. 
- Jeff Jarrett could have drawn in the WWF, if Austin would've worked with him.
- Fit Finlay is the secret best worker in WCW in 1998/1999.
- Booker T is overrated 
- Stevie Ray is awesome
- Virgil could've main evented in 1992, he was over enough.
- Adam Bomb was awesome.
- Ricky Steamboat's work in mid-90's WCW against Austin, Rude, and his team with Shane Douglas is better than anything in his 80's WWF Run. That includes the match against Savage.


----------



## Cynic

If Eddie Guerrero hadn't died, no one would be talking about him as an all-time great.


----------



## We'veSeenaNuff

Cynic said:


> If Eddie Guerrero hadn't died, no one would be talking about him as an all-time great.


But when he eventually did die, people would still be.


----------



## SaviorBeeRad™

TaylorFitz said:


> Watching an entire wrestling show in one sitting is really hard to do. Look I love wrestling but I don't enjoy sitting and watching it for 3 hours (sometimes more). It usually takes me at least 2 days to watch a show and there are a lot of times when I just give up on a show for no real reason.


Agreed so much... unless you are watching with friends imo.


----------



## erikstans07

This is officially my favorite thread ever. It feels good to share some opinions that I'd otherwise not get the chance to share. And some of the others on here are pretty interesting.


----------



## joeycalz

- John Morrison >>>>>> The Miz in the ring, and his lack of mic skills by the IWC is blown WAYYY out of proportion.
- Orton is the best thing going in the business today.
- Edge/Angle from 2002 is easily one of the funniest and most entertaining programs the WWE had last decade.
- Shawn Michaels is indisputably the best wrestler of all time, he was a Tag Team, Mid Card and Main Event great. His matches although some overrated were always entertaining. He entertained as a big time face and a big time heel and in the 90s he gets 0 recognition.
- The Rock as a heel in 2003 is LIGHT YEARS ahead of what he did from 98/99.
- Heel Ministry Taker is the best Undertaker, better than the American Badass. 
- Owen Hart as a wrestler was just as good if not BETTER than his brother, and he deserved a World Title run as early as the middle of 94.
- Eddie Guerrero is overrated and I feel like he's glorified so much because his epic heel turn before he died against Rey was THAT good. 
- Kevin Nash is one of the most underrated wrestlers of all time.
- Jeff Hardy's in ring ability and character get blown way out of proportion too. For what it's worth I always found him entertaining, all drugs, botches and lack of mic skills aside.


----------



## FITZ

Cynic said:


> If Eddie Guerrero hadn't died, no one would be talking about him as an all-time great.


I think it would be the other way around because Eddie would have been able to wrestle as a top guy for a few more years at least.


----------



## erikstans07

TaylorFitz said:


> I think it would be the other way around because Eddie would have been able to wrestle as a top guy for a few more years at least.


Plus, I don't know about you, but I already thought Eddie was an all-time great years before he died.


----------



## -Mystery-

Fuck out of here with this Eddie talk. Dude was already top 10 before he died.


----------



## antoniomare007

He was indeed, but i have to agree that since he died there's a lot of more people talking about his greatness, and a big portion of those fans haven't watch half the shit Eddie has been a part of. 

He deserves all the praise he gets though, the guy was outstanding.


----------



## KingKicks

-Mike Quackenbush is the most overrated wrestler in the indies.
-Dragon Gate can be pretty difficult to watch unless Shingo, YAMATO, Doi or Yoshino are wrestling.
-Flair isn't the greatest wrestler of all time. I'd put Shawn Michaels, Ricky Steamboat and Eddie Guerrero above him.
-The Rock's heel run in 2003 was one of the most entertaining things WWE has ever booked.
-TNA > CHIKARA


----------



## Emperor DC

*1.* Chris Benoit is still awesome and because I did not know him personally, what happened in June 07 does not bother me or deter me from thinking of him as one of the greatest of all-time. Chris Benoit will always be the man.
*
2.* Kevin Sullivan killed them, wanting to finally compete in and win a 3 on 1 handicap match.


----------



## Yeah1993

Cynic said:


> If Eddie Guerrero hadn't died, no one would be talking about him as an all-time great.


That's bull, tbf. I consider Rey up there and he hasn't died. Same with Flair, Michaels, Hart, Steamboat, Santo, Kawada, Kobashi, Backlund, Windham, Liger. And I considered benoit & Misawa up there before they died. There's a lot of discussion floating around from before Eddie died where people say he's an all-time great too that I've read.

edit: more unpopular opinions:

-Nation Rock was the most entertaining version of him.
-1985 Flair is probably better than 1989 Flair, and is probably the best year for any wrestler ever.
-Jim Duggan was great in his prime. Great.


----------



## seancarleton77

Benjo™ said:


> -Mike Quackenbush is the most overrated wrestler in the indies.
> 
> -Dragon Gate can be pretty difficult to watch unless Shingo, YAMATO, Doi or Yoshino are wrestling.
> 
> -The Rock's heel run in 2003 was one of the most entertaining things WWE has ever booked.
> 
> -TNA > CHIKARA


I would say Quack is a better Booker than he is a wrestler, that's for sure.

You forgot PAC.

I agree The Rock was amazing as heel and made Shane Helms a star.

Now that is just RICOCKULOUS, TNA is on its way down and Chikara is on its way up, I wouldn't be surprised if MTV picked up Chikara.


----------



## Legend

-Steve Austin was only entertaining as a heel (not as a tweener or face). The guys he was feuding with made the rivalries. 

-Cannabis (pot) does not make you entertaining, either in the wrestling business (looking at you, London) or not. 

-Wrestling's better than MMA (I suppose it's a wrestling opinion). Lot of self-hating wrestling 'fans' out there.

-Japanese doesn't always = *****

-It makes more sense for WWE to sign Titus, Grizzly, Omega and Claudio than Danielson. They'd do more there right now.


----------



## smitlick

I agree on the signings instead of Danielson except i feel Claudio needs a manager..


----------



## seancarleton77

Legend said:


> -Wrestling's better than MMA (I suppose it's a wrestling opinion). Lot of self-hating wrestling 'fans' out there.
> 
> -Japanese doesn't always = *****
> 
> -It makes more sense for WWE to sign Titus, Grizzly, Omega and Claudio than Danielson. They'd do more there right now.


I think great wrestling is more entertaining than great MMA but WWE and TNA shows are almost never better than a great fight card.

We have Hama, Makabe and Yone to thank for that.

Claudio, maybe. Danielson would instantly be over if he returned to the WWE, man has converted quite a few WWE and TNA fans with his recent NXT promos/Miz and Cole beatdowns/Tie chocking and kicking Cena's fucking head in.


----------



## njbaldwin

KaijuFan said:


> That's like saying it's pathetic I did too good on a test, got kicked out of college for it, then I went to another college to continue my education.
> 
> Get back in the kitchen.


Has this guy been pulled up for making a blatantly sexist comment to another poster? That's not cool man.


----------



## TheAce

> -Mike Quackenbush is the most overrated wrestler in the indies.
> -Dragon Gate can be pretty difficult to watch unless Shingo, YAMATO, Doi or Yoshino are wrestling.
> -Flair isn't the greatest wrestler of all time. I'd put Shawn Michaels, Ricky Steamboat and Eddie Guerrero above him.
> -The Rock's heel run in 2003 was one of the most entertaining things WWE has ever booked.
> -TNA > CHIKARA


While I agree with most of what you said there....i have to wonder how much Chikara you've actually seen, have you followed Chikara storylines last year and into this year? how many shows have you seen?

Quack IS hella overrated as a wrestler but as a booker he stays true to his storylines and is more intricate with them than ANY booker working right now. It may not be your personal "cup of tea" but everything he does booking wise in terms of the Chikara universe makes sense.

When I was totally burned out on wrestling last year, Chiakra brought me back because a) Their shows build up to the end properly b) Despite the naysayers, they have some really great in ring talent (they have some shitty talent as well) c) It's FUN, they have a sense of humor about themselves and that goes a LONG way.


----------



## GOD OF CUNT

Yeah1993 said:


> -Trish and Lita were horrid in the ring and contributed nothing to wrestling.
> -HHH is a better worker than The Rock.


Bullshit.

Lita... well, whatever, I don't care about that, but no way Trish was "horrid". "Contributed nothing to wrestling" is a really weird term, too. 

Second one I can't understand at all. Honestly. 

Although, around here, 'HHH is a better worker than Rock' sure as shit isn't an unpopular opinion, anyway. 



Cynic said:


> If Eddie Guerrero hadn't died, no one would be talking about him as an all-time great.


Also bullshit.


And whoever said Skinner wasn't "that bad" is still underselling him. Steve Keirn was the shit.


----------



## antoniomare007

-80's wrestling >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2000's wrestling


----------



## -Mystery-

antoniomare007 said:


> -80's wrestling >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2000's wrestling


A lot of this has to do with the greatness of Jerry Lawler and Memphis wrestling.


----------



## McQueen

And Mid South being better than everything else in '85


----------



## antoniomare007

and UWF vs New Japan...and Choshu invading All Japan


----------



## KingKicks

I've checked out a quite few shows over the last couple of years (the last 3 King of Trios, Rey de Voladores 2008/2009 and Tag World Grand Prix 2008) and none of them kept my interest for very long. Plus I'm not a fan of the humour or gimmicks that are used.

Tried getting into it enough times now.


----------



## McQueen

I knew I liked Benjo for a reason. I just thought it was because he came into contact with Kenta Kobashi though.


----------



## rafz

I got one:

- Ric Flair is extremely overrated.


----------



## We'veSeenaNuff

Andy3000 said:


> Bullshit.
> And whoever said Skinner wasn't "that bad" is still underselling him. Steve Keirn was the shit.


A lot of people just didn't dig Skinner. I maintain that he was a solid worker saddled with a lame gimmick and unfortunate jobber status.


----------



## Yeah1993

Andy3000 said:


> Bullshit.
> 
> Lita... well, whatever, I don't care about that, but no way Trish was "horrid". "Contributed nothing to wrestling" is a really weird term, too.
> 
> Second one I can't understand at all. Honestly.
> 
> Although, around here, 'HHH is a better worker than Rock' sure as shit isn't an unpopular opinion, anyway.


Idk how it's a weird term. Basically what I meant was it's popuar opinion that she's some super-helper to women's wrestling, and that women's wrestling would be like nothing without her. I was basically trying to say it wouldn;t be any different if she wasn;t around.

I wouldn;t argue Rock > HHH btw, like I think it's close and I don;t think HHH is lightyears ahead of him or anything.


----------



## xHartxLegacyx

|Facepalm at half this thread.| Well i am gonna say it.

DGUSA and Chikara/Evolve > Anything else atm.


----------



## GOD OF CUNT

We'veSeenaNuff said:


> A lot of people just didn't dig Skinner. I maintain that he was a solid worker saddled with a lame gimmick and unfortunate jobber status.


He was pretty much past it as a worker by the time they stuck him with the Skinner gig (solid, though, still), but he was a legit great worker from around '82-'86. Awesome tag wrestler, part of my (probably) favourite team ever.



Yeah1993 said:


> Idk how it's a weird term. Basically what I meant was it's popuar opinion that she's some super-helper to women's wrestling, and that women's wrestling would be like nothing without her. I was basically trying to say it wouldn;t be any different if she wasn;t around.


I don't mean weird in that I don't understand what you're getting at, and while I think "she contributed nothing" is underselling her a bit, I wouldn't argue her as a "pioneer" or anything, either. 

The whole "such and such added nothing to wrestling" thing just seems like a pointless claim in general, though. 

I mean when you're talking about "contributing" to wrestling, there's a shit ton of guys you could point to as people that never really "contributed". 

Did someone like Ricky Steamboat *really* contribute a whole lot to wrestling? Sure, the Greensboro Coliseum did a huge gate for the Final Conflict that one time, but other than smarks having one less guy to drool over, would wrestling be all that different without him? It's not like Crockett wasn't taking a hit when he and Flair were having those matches in '89, no matter how good they were.

Would wrestling be a whole lot different without Barry Windham? Or Chris Benoit (well, Benoit's ultimate contribution was a negative one, but I'm choosing to conveniently forget that he iced his kid)? Or Shawn Michaels?

Contributing is a really subjective term when you're talking about wrestlers, so to say someone contributed nothing (when I don't see how Trish *didn't*)... well, that's kinda weird.


----------



## McQueen

Bob Backlund is a much better pro wrestler than Shawn Micheals should be a fairly unpopular opinion around here.


----------



## GOD OF CUNT

Oh, that's a good one. 

Arn Anderson being better than Bret Hart is another one. Remember THAT shit?


----------



## McQueen

Arn was/is the man, i'll agree to that. And yeah I remember that.


----------



## GOD OF CUNT

I watched some Arn this morning and the guy has the best collection of wrestling shtick ever. There's 3 or 4 guys tops in wrestling history I like more than Double A.


----------



## McQueen

List please.

El Dandy & E.H.del Santo?


----------



## GOD OF CUNT

Eddie Guerrero, Butch Reed, Fuerza Guerrera and Dick Murdoch. Dick and Arn are more or less interchangeable. 

Those five basically make up my five favourite wrestlers ever.


----------



## McQueen

I'm not very familiar with Fuerza but otherwise I approve.

Butch Reed should have gotten a shot with the IC title, shame he supposedly screwed that up for himself.


----------



## GOD OF CUNT

I read that he's pissed on every carpet/piece of furniture of every motel he's ever been in.

Butch Reed, the man your President wishes he was.


----------



## McQueen

:lmao


----------



## Yeah1993

Andy3000 said:


> He was pretty much past it as a worker by the time they stuck him with the Skinner gig (solid, though, still), but he was a legit great worker from around '82-'86. Awesome tag wrestler, part of my (probably) favourite team ever.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't mean weird in that I don't understand what you're getting at, and while I think "she contributed nothing" is underselling her a bit, I wouldn't argue her as a "pioneer" or anything, either.
> 
> The whole "such and such added nothing to wrestling" thing just seems like a pointless claim in general, though.
> 
> I mean when you're talking about "contributing" to wrestling, there's a shit ton of guys you could point to as people that never really "contributed".
> 
> Did someone like Ricky Steamboat *really* contribute a whole lot to wrestling? Sure, the Greensboro Coliseum did a huge gate for the Final Conflict that one time, but other than smarks having one less guy to drool over, would wrestling be all that different without him? It's not like Crockett wasn't taking a hit when he and Flair were having those matches in '89, no matter how good they were.
> 
> Would wrestling be a whole lot different without Barry Windham? Or Chris Benoit (well, Benoit's ultimate contribution was a negative one, but I'm choosing to conveniently forget that he iced his kid)? Or Shawn Michaels?
> 
> Contributing is a really subjective term when you're talking about wrestlers, so to say someone contributed nothing (when I don't see how Trish *didn't*)... well, that's kinda weird.


I agree with all of that btu I neevr hear anyone g "stemaboat's a pioneer", "windham contributed this", "wrestling would be nothing without Michaels". Whereas I hear "Women's wrestling wouldn't be where it is without Stratus", which is the popular opinion (odd since women's wrestling is viewed as trash anyway). "Contributed nothing" might be an exaggeration, but women's wrestling would be no different right now if she hadn;t been a wrestler (maybe that is "contributed nothing".....Idk).



Andy3000 said:


> Oh, that's a good one.
> 
> Arn Anderson being better than Bret Hart is another one. Remember THAT shit?


That was awesome stuff.

edit- need to do more research on the Reed thing. Hope it's true.


----------



## GOD OF CUNT

It's Reed. If it's not true I'll piss on my own carpet/furniture.


----------



## antoniomare007

liar, you are gonna do that even if you are right, just to emulate Butch 

Yeah666 sold me on a couple of Arn single matches from early 90's wCw, what would you recommend Andy?


to stay on topic, Randy Orton is still a very boring wrestler.


----------



## GOD OF CUNT

antoniomare007 said:


> liar, you are gonna do that even if you are right, just to emulate Butch
> 
> Yeah666 sold me on a couple of Arn single matches from early 90's wCw, what would you recommend Andy?


Blatant plug on my part, but I've been doing a 'Double A of the Day' thing in the blog in my sig where I watch an Arn match a day (well, that's the plan in theory, I haven't actually been doing it *every* day) and talk about it. I've done 16 of them so far and I've spoke about a bunch of early 90s Arn. I'll be continuing to do so, so I guess I'd suggest the stuff in there.

A couple other matches I haven't already spoke about but are two of my favourite Arn singles matches:

Arn v Great Muta (1/2/90)
Arn v Ricky Steamboat (3/21/92)

Arn in '92 was incredible, but most of his best stuff came in tags or in Wargames. I'll eventually talk about more or less everything he did that year.


----------



## seabs

*Arn was much better than Bret for me too btw. *


----------



## seancarleton77

I'm a big Arn fan but for me he is at least 5 spots behind Hart.

Lita really was overrated, people used to call her best female wrestler in the world while Aja Kong and Toyota were still really good, and she is nowhere near those women.


----------



## Yeah1993

I wouldn't be surprised if I considered AA better than Bret once I watch the DA set. Right now I'd have him a _little_ behind Bret.


----------



## McQueen

You're also a Davey Richards fan Sean....

Owen was better than Bret Hart by the way. I saw some other people thought so too, made me happy.


----------



## antoniomare007

i think that Bret had a better career (obviously) and more good/classic matches, but Owen was more talented.


i'm not a big Bret fan so it's gonna be interesting to see if Arn really was better, hopefully i'll get to see his work soon.


----------



## McQueen

I agree with your first point 100%

Owen is the guy most responcible for getting me into wrestling in the first place, shame he was never really treated as a top guy.


----------



## TheAce

> Owen was better than Bret Hart by the way. I saw some other people thought so too, made me happy


without a doubt. Owen was the best.


----------



## seancarleton77

Davey Richards is better than Dynamite Kid and if he wrestles until his 40's he will surpass Benoit in the ring.


----------



## Legend

-It's not okay to go off a wrestler if he doesn't win a title when you want him to.


----------



## Barry_Darsow

I want Ric Flair to wrestle on a regular basis.


----------



## seancarleton77

Fans who say Tyler Black sucks are retarded, or have no sense of sight or hearing.


----------



## jpchicago23

I liked Konnans early work in WCW
I think the Outsiders sucked
I think Wrath and Mortis shouldve been tag champs
I think Kevin Sullivan should have main evented against Hogan in 95
I think Sabu is overrated
Same goes for Sandman 
I think Alex Wright shouldve gotten a big push as Berlyn


----------



## Yeah1993

seancarleton77 said:


> Davey Richards is better than Dynamite Kid and if he wrestles until his 40's he will surpass Benoit in the ring.


How can you say he _will_ surpass somone in the ring? You don;t know he won't get crap (or even crapper/shittest wrestler ever) the older he gets.


----------



## arjun14626rko

jpchicago23 said:


> I liked Konnans early work in WCW
> I think the Outsiders sucked
> I think Wrath and Mortis shouldve been tag champs
> I think Kevin Sullivan should have main evented against Hogan in 95
> *I think Sabu is overrated
> Same goes for Sandman *
> I think Alex Wright shouldve gotten a big push as Berlyn


Those two are not entirely unpopular. Sabu is a botch artist, especially in TNA and WWE. It became amazing when he actually did not botch a move. The Sandman does not resemble a wrestler in any sense. Cool character but no wrestling ability whatsoever.


----------



## seancarleton77

Yeah1993 said:


> How can you say he _will_ surpass somone in the ring? You don;t know he won't get crap (or even crapper/shittest wrestler ever) the older he gets.


The way I see it is Davey is a perfectionist, he always gets better and he's at least twice as smart as Benoit, even if he retires late 2010 or early 2011 he will be the man who left while he was on top as best wrestler in the world. 

p.s. Bryan Danielson was better than Benoit ever was in 2006-2009.


----------



## McQueen

Davey is far from the best wrestler in the world.


----------



## Notorious

Bryan Danielson was not better than Chris Benoit.
Rey Mysterio is not overrated.
American Wolves are the best tag team in the world.


----------



## Yeah1993

McQueen said:


> Davey is far from the best wrestler in the world.


Like 50 go ahead of him.


----------



## McQueen

Davey is really good at wrestling like an indy wrestler, but thats about it. His shit is always the same indy formula over and over. But ZOMG he's really aggressive!!!!!!

I seriously don't understand what the big fucking deal is. 

and Big Van Vader is a better wrestler than Shawn Micheals.


----------



## Yeah1993

I saw a match vs. Roddy String earlier this year and it was on ROH HDNet or w/e, and he (or _they_) felt the need to make it as stupidly OMGZ EPIC NEAR FALLZ!!!! as possible. Shit guys, it's just a small TV match. 

Wouldn;t disagree with Vader > HBK but I don;t agree on it (if that makes sense - I think it's close or whatever you might say). Not even half way through his GH comp either. Definitely put him ahead of Angle, HHH, Taker, Dynamite Kid, The Rock, Curt Hennig, Savage, Davey Boy, Edge, Owen Hart, Lesnar, and maybe Mick Foley though (and I love a bunch of those guys).


----------



## antoniomare007

oh yeah, that's a big one...Shawn Michaels is overrated :agree:


----------



## McQueen

Nah, I get what you are saying. I find Micheals to be a great entertainer and probably have more matches i'd rate higher than most guys but I don't always feel that it constitutes them being great matches, but in terms of having matches and working them in character several i'd put ahead of HBK. I think my opinion makes even less sense than yours lol. 

I guess the best way to explain it is HBK was great at having those fantastic moments like firey comebacks and what not but a lot of time it always reminds me what I was watching is fake, especially if say he starts doing kip ups after someone just spent 30 minutes destroying his back, whereas I don't see a guy like Vader, Foley or Terry Funk doing that even if either of them don't have as impressive a catalog of matches. Maybe i'm just a mark for more realistic workers. I want to be drawn in and believe dammit.

Don't know if i'd put Savage behind Vader though. I thought he was great if not somewhat repetive but its would be pretty close.


----------



## Arya Dark

Cynic said:


> If Eddie Guerrero hadn't died, no one would be talking about him as an all-time great.


*By dying Eddie Guerrero became James Dean instead of Paul Newman.*


----------



## McQueen

Eddie was awesome well before he ever set foot in a WWE ring. People generally tend to get a stick up their ass about it because he died right when he became a big name but the truth was he was always one of the better performers around (since the early 90's I might add) even if he was a lifelong mid carder.

I was a fan of his from day one (or at least when I first saw him which was early 97), and proud of it.


----------



## bme

- Even though i liked the new personality he was showing during his reign, i disliked a majority of Danielson's title matches.
- Samoa Joe has been a shell of his former self since 2008.
- I thought a Misawa/Kawada match i saw was good, that's it.


----------



## McQueen

Not to sound elitist or anything but to fully appreciate some of that 90's All Japan stuff you have to follow it pretty closely since a lot of the spots are stuff that is subtlely played off other matches in the series. In some cases and Misawa/Kawada is a great example of this that can be years worth of matches. They didn't just pretend like stuff that happened over 6 months ago didn't happen at all like WWE likes to do.

Glad you liked it at least, not everyones cup of tea.


----------



## bme

McQueen said:


> Not to sound elitist or anything but to fully appreciate some of that 90's All Japan stuff you have to follow it pretty closely since a lot of the spots are stuff that is subtlely played off other matches in the series. In some cases and Misawa/Kawada is a great example of this that can be years worth of matches. They didn't just pretend like stuff that happened over 6 months ago didn't happen at all like WWE likes to do.
> 
> Glad you liked it at least, not everyones cup of tea.


i'll probably rewatch the match, at the time i watched it out of boredom

I did see an old school AJPW tribute vid that sparked my interest.


----------



## Yeah1993

Thing with All Japan in 90s is you'd have to kind of watch the matches in order to fully appreciate it too (basically what Eric said). Misawa/Kawada 3/6/94 is my best match ever, but after watchin git the first time, there was still some "deepish" stuff that I didn't get that I had to read about later on.

Which Misawa/Kawada was it btw? I've heard some of their matches weren;t all that great so depending on the match it might not actually be an unpopular opinion.


----------



## seancarleton77

As much as I loved Vader in Japan and WCW as the best Super Heavyweight of all time, Shawn Michaels is arguably the most complete wrestler of all time, he could outwork Vader, he could out talk Vader and he could outdraw Vader.

The Misawa vs. Kobashi feud produced better wrestling matches than the Kawada vs. Misawa feud (Best matches ever)however the personal and professional history between Misawa and Kawada makes their feud the more enthralling feud of the two.

On to Davey again, I guess I just see something in Davey that a lot of my fellow Puro/NWA/Indy compadres don't see in him.

Bryan Danielson is the greatest American (North, South and Central) wrestler alive today.


----------



## arjun14626rko

I did not enjoy watching CM Punk vs. Samoa Joe II. I have not seen I or III, but I am planning on doing so soon.


----------



## antoniomare007

seancarleton77 said:


> As much as I loved Vader in Japan and WCW as the best Super Heavyweight of all time, Shawn Michaels is arguably the most complete wrestler of all time, he could outwork Vader, he could out talk Vader *and he could outdraw Vader.*


No he couldn't, Michaels was a horrible draw. At least Vader drew big time in Japan.



seancarleton77 said:


> The Misawa vs. Kobashi feud produced better wrestling matches than the Kawada vs. Misawa feud (Best matches ever)however the personal and professional history between Misawa and Kawada makes their feud the more enthralling feud of the two


in singles? yeah. overall?? HELL NAH!. The Jumbo/Misawa and Kawada/Misawa feuds produced waaayyyy more classics than Kobashi vs Misawa, in fact those 2 are not big rivals, they just had awesome matches against each other.


----------



## McQueen

antoniomare007 said:


> No he couldn't, Michaels was a horrible draw. At least Vader drew big time in Japan.


Didn't even think of this but yeah.




> in singles? yeah. overall?? HELL NAH!. The Jumbo/Misawa and Kawada/Misawa feuds produced waaayyyy more classics than Kobashi vs Misawa, in fact those 2 are not big rivals, they just had awesome matches against each other.


Agreed again. In fact when Kobashi started to really become the guy was when the King's Road style started to go the wrong way down the slippery slope of overkill, no disrespect to Kobashi because I still love the guy. 90% of the All Japan I do watch is from '86 to '95 for a reason.


----------



## seancarleton77

Being the heel draw is easy, people pay to see the giant toppled by the hero. Michaels made you want to see a match later in his career, the man in my opinion didn't get it until after his return. I like Vader but if he's facing anyone less than Sting no one will want to see the match, Michaels can face Shelton Benjamin and the crowd will be enthralled.


----------



## GOD OF CUNT

Well that's pretty much horseshit.


----------



## antoniomare007

For whatever reasons, people didn't pay to see Shawn Michaels (the numbers don't lie), but have paid to see Vader. Just as simple as that, he's just a bigger draw. 

And being the heel draw is not easy, very few heels have been draws. Hell, Shawn drew shit when he was a heel champion, only the tweener/face Steve Austin made big money with him.

I agree that Michaels was a very entertaining wrestler and solid overall talent (although i don't think he's an elite worker, that's why a find him a little overrated), he just didn't make people spend their money on him. The same happens with a lot of good/great wrestler - Bret, Jericho, Benoit,etc - it aint something that serious.


----------



## hazuki

TNA's booking isn't all _that_ bad atm, IMO. I enjoy it for the most part, expect for the ECW angle lol. Though, I don't mind it.


----------



## jpchicago23

I would mark the hell out if Sycho Sid returned to the WWE


----------



## -Mystery-

Just to chime in, the state WWE was in at the time didn't do any favors for Michaels either. That company was in the shitter (business wise) from like '93 till '98. Nobody was drawing anything as champion.


----------



## McQueen

antoniomare007 said:


> For whatever reasons, people didn't pay to see Shawn Michaels (the numbers don't lie), but have paid to see Vader. Just as simple as that, he's just a bigger draw.
> 
> And being the heel draw is not easy, very few heels have been draws. Hell, Shawn drew shit when he was a heel champion, only the tweener/face Steve Austin made big money with him.
> 
> I agree that Michaels was a very entertaining wrestler and solid overall talent (although i don't think he's an elite worker, that's why a find him a little overrated), he just didn't make people spend their money on him. The same happens with a lot of good/great wrestler - Bret, Jericho, Benoit,etc - it aint something that serious.


Get out of my head voodoo man, I'm developing a man crush.


----------



## Cryme Tyme

Here I go. 

Current CM Punk>ROH CM Punk by far.
Abyss is still one of the most talented big men in the business. 
I enjoy Cody Rhodes more than I did Rick Rude.
Goldust should have been a multiple time world champion.


----------



## seabs

*Vader was a much bigger draw in the 90's than Shawn Mr.Carleton. Shawn wasn't really a draw until after his return in 02*


----------



## Horselover Fat

seancarleton77 said:


> As much as I loved Vader in Japan and WCW as the best Super Heavyweight of all time, Shawn Michaels is arguably the most complete wrestler of all time, he could outwork Vader,* he could out talk Vader* and he could outdraw Vader.


http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x29xmc_vader-goes-berzerk_sport


----------



## Dug2356

Eddie Edwards is Overrated.
Necro Butchur should just go away and never return to wrestling again.
Evan Bourne is one of the most over faces in wwe at the moment.
I Love Best of 5/7 Series Matches.
i think Roderick Strong is pretty Bland in the Ring.
Sheamus is a awesome Mic Worker and can put on some good matches.


----------



## seancarleton77

Vader even past his prime in 1996 made other super heavyweights look like lazy bums, Nash included, and Abyss couldn't hold a candle to him at any point in his career.


----------



## Tarfu

A few more:

- BJ Whitmer is (or was) awesome. 
- Croyt's Wrath is such an anticlimatic finisher. I like Omega, but he doesn't really seem to master it.
- Dolph Ziggler is probably the best seller in the whole WWE right now.
- Cena and Orton's Iron Man match from Bragging Rights is great, and easily makes it to the top 5 of 2009. It's a shame how little attention it gets.


----------



## joeysnotright

Homicide is awesome.
I want Super Dragon back.
Spotfests and Deathmathes have their place in wrestling.
Lucha Libre is highly entertaining.
Triple H was never good.
Chris Hero still needs to improve his physique. It's better than it was, but still needs work.


----------



## bme

Yeah1993 said:


> Thing with All Japan in 90s is you'd have to kind of watch the matches in order to fully appreciate it too (basically what Eric said). Misawa/Kawada 3/6/94 is my best match ever, but after watchin git the first time, there was still some "deepish" stuff that I didn't get that I had to read about later on.
> 
> Which Misawa/Kawada was it btw? I've heard some of their matches weren;t all that great so depending on the match it might not actually be an unpopular opinion.


the one from June 3rd 1994


----------



## Yeah1993

DIE Oh. Maybe you don't like puro then? Idk. :$


----------



## sharkboy22

KingCal said:


> WWECW >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Original ECW.
> 
> Smackdown 2006 was fucking AWESOME.
> 
> AJ Styles is terrible.
> 
> Kurt Angle is terrible too.
> 
> The Rock was only entertaining for about 1% of his entire career.
> 
> WrestleMania XIX is EASILY better than WrestleMania X-7.
> 
> Finlay was the best wrestler in the world in 2006 (yes, better than Danielson).
> 
> 1998 and 1999 were 2 of the very worst years WWF ever had.


I agree with every fricking thing you said, except for AJ and Angle.


----------



## soxfan93

Tarfu said:


> - Cena and Orton's Iron Man match from Bragging Rights is great, and easily makes it to the top 5 of 2009. It's a shame how little attention it gets.


I was going to say the same thing.

Also:

- Kurt Angle is terribly overrated.
- All of the John Morrison hate is highly unnecessary.
- The Miz is better than Edge and Christian combined.
- Christian has never been and will never be world title material.
- William Regal sucks.


----------



## erikstans07

-Anyone that says Christian isn't World title material must have forgotten how good he is as a heel. Right now, he's just stuck in the WWE midcard as a face. He was the hottest thing going in the WWE as a heel before he went to TNA, where he kept reeking of awesomeness. Once he turns heel, and it will happen, he'll show you why he's worthy of being a World champ in WWE.


----------



## soxfan93

I guess we'll see then.


----------



## GOD OF CUNT

How does Regal suck?


----------



## McQueen

I'd also like an explanation of why Morrison hate is unnessessary.


----------



## TheAce

The Regal comment is just stupid.

I mean this is the unpopular wrestling opinions thread I suppose...

Here's one that will grind McQueens gears (which is not done on purpose BTW I grew up on 80's NWA and I love Puro!! lol ) Chikara has had the best booking in the Indy's over the last year


----------



## McQueen

I don't have a problem with the booking. From what I hear it actually doesn't sound all that bad I just don't like most of the talent and general vibe they promote.


----------



## soxfan93

Andy3000 said:


> How does Regal suck?


He has never impressed me at all, and I've been watching him since WCW in the mid-'90s.



McQueen said:


> I'd also like an explanation of why Morrison hate is unnessessary.


How is it necessary? He is a talented mid-carder. The hate he gets here is like if Hornswoggle was chasing the WWE Title.


----------



## McQueen

And yet you are a Mr. Anderson fan.


----------



## KingCrash

soxfan93 said:


> How is it necessary? He is a talented mid-carder. The hate he gets here is like if Hornswoggle was chasing the WWE Title.


Don't know if it's more hate for Morrison or love for Miz and everyone deciding they have to pick a side or something.

You know who deserves alot more hate? Ted DiBiase. Easily the blandest guy on the roster today, and that includes guys like Kozlov and Lance Hoyt. Wrestling wise he isn't much better.


----------



## TheAce

> and general vibe they promote.


Arn wouldn't of liked it either, i'm sure. LOL.


Here's another. I hear people s#%t all over Bill Watts but for my $ 1992 was the best year WCW ever had in the ring.


----------



## McQueen

Bill Watts is responsible for Mid South and WCW's best years so I don't care if he has a reputation for being an asshole.

Morrison is an attractive and an athletic guy but thats about all he has going for him. I don't care for his matches because its him just randomly doing overly contrived moves and his gimmick is laughably awful. He literally does nothing that makes me care about watching him on TV. I can easily understand why people can't stand the guy.


----------



## soxfan93

KingCrash said:


> Don't know if it's more hate for Morrison or love for Miz and everyone deciding they have to pick a side or something.


I would agree with that. Then again, I'm a huge fan of both, and Ted DiBiase. I guess that's why I don't let myself become influenced by the [other members of the] IWC.


----------



## soxfan93

McQueen said:


> Morrison is an attractive and an athletic guy but thats about all he has going for him. I don't care for his matches because its him just randomly doing overly contrived moves and his gimmick is laughably awful. He literally does nothing that makes me care about watching him on TV.


And yet that's exactly how I have always felt about Rey Mysterio.


----------



## McQueen

I don't agree but okay.


----------



## soxfan93

McQueen said:


> I don't agree but okay.


And I respect that. And after all, as Ace said, this is the thread for unpopular opinions.


----------



## GOD OF CUNT

soxfan93 said:


> He has never impressed me at all, and I've been watching him since WCW in the mid-'90s.


So it's more a case of "he sucks because he doesn't interest me" as opposed to there actually being any reason as to why you think he's a bad wrestler?



TheAce said:


> Here's another. I hear people s#%t all over Bill Watts but for my $ 1992 was the best year WCW ever had in the ring.


Other than 1985 Mid-South, 1992 WCW is my favourite year for a wrestling company ever. But when Watts came in mid-way through the year things started to hit the skids. For reasons I don't think I'll ever quite get, he felt like it would be a good idea to kill off the Dangerous Alliance. 

His job was to come in and cut costs, but some of the booking decisions he made were really wacky. 

I like the second half of 1992 a whole lot, but if the July-December period was as good as the January-June period then I don't think '85 Mid-South would touch it.


----------



## soxfan93

Andy3000 said:


> So it's more a case of "he sucks because he doesn't interest me" as opposed to there actually being any reason as to why you think he's a bad wrestler?


Call it what you want, I guess. All I'm saying is that he has never done anything in 15 years that made me stop and say "damn, he's good." Maybe it's shitty booking in WCW/WWF/WWE, and maybe it's because I've never seen any of his old European stuff, but overall, I've just never been impressed by him.


----------



## TheAce

> I like the second half of 1992 a whole lot, but if the July-December period was as good as the January-June period then I don't think '85 Mid-South would touch it.


I actually forgot Watts came in mid-year, who booked the 1st half of that year? Dusty?? It couldn't have been....


----------



## seancarleton77

Forced sex is not a good thing... unless it's on Honky Tonk Man being raped, I fucking hate that guy!


----------



## McQueen

I'm not sure how to respond to that or exactly why its okay for Honky Tonk Man to get raped because you don't like him has to do with Pro Wrestling opinions.


----------



## GOD OF CUNT

soxfan93 said:


> Call it what you want, I guess. All I'm saying is that he has never done anything in 15 years that made me stop and say "damn, he's good." Maybe it's shitty booking in WCW/WWF/WWE, and maybe it's because I've never seen any of his old European stuff, but overall, I've just never been impressed by him.


If 1993-1994 Regal doesn't interest you than his Euro stuff won't change your mind.



TheAce said:


> I actually forgot Watts came in mid-year, who booked the 1st half of that year? Dusty?? It couldn't have been....


Kip Allen Frey was running things in the first half. Guys were working their socks off because he put in place a performance bonus, although that didn't help the money issues which is why Watts was brought in to tighten things up.


----------



## seancarleton77

McQueen said:


> I'm not sure how to respond to that or exactly why its okay for Honky Tonk Man to get raped because you don't like him has to do with Pro Wrestling opinions.


It has to do with his in ring work, proof you don't need to know an arm drag from a drag queen to be a star if you have charisma or the right gimmick.

Oh and Triple H in his prime is about half as good as Regal in WCW, and Regal is a better heel than Triple H was, he just got suspended for drugs when he was about to be the best monster heel villain since Vince McMahon.


----------



## TheAce

> Oh and Triple H in his prime is about half as good as Regal in WCW, and Regal is a better heel than Triple H was, he just got suspended for drugs when he was about to be the best monster heel villain since Vince McMahon.


This I agree with!


----------



## gohel50

I also agree, William Regal could be, and should be, one of the top heels in WWE. Also :

Abyss is better than Kane
Evan Bourne isn't good enough to be a Main Eventer
John Morrison is not as bad as Rey Mysterio
The Miz is much more charismatic than John Cena.


----------



## SecondCity

Wrestlers needs to have a look or something unique about them to main event. Simply being a great wrestler is not good enough to main event, imo.


----------



## McQueen

I agree that a wrestler should have something about them that makes them stand out compared to everyone else, but the whole "So and so doesn't have the look" arguement is assinine. The way a wrestler looks should only been important if it defines their gimmick ala a guy like Rick Rude or Chris Masters.


----------



## GOD OF CUNT

gohel50 said:


> I also agree, William Regal could be, and should be, one of the top heels in WWE. Also :
> 
> Abyss is better than Kane
> Evan Bourne isn't good enough to be a Main Eventer
> *John Morrison is not as bad as Rey Mysterio*
> The Miz is much more charismatic than John Cena.


I don't get this at all. Myaterio's bad? Bad how? 

I mean, shit, I've watched next to no WWE since May, but unless Mysterio's hit the skids HUGE, how is he possibly worse than Morrison?


----------



## LaurinaitisOSU

1. Pre-Big Poppa Pump and injuries , Scott Steiner was the perfect wrestling machine. His strength, speed and technical skills was no where matched by anybody.

2. Rick Rude is the best wrestler never to hold a major World Title.

3. Delirious, Necro Butcher and El Generico should never be allowed in ROH ever again.

4. Claudio is better then Chris Hero.

5. Christian isn't close to being as good as most people on here thinks.

6. Dr. Death is the most underrated wrestler of all-time

7. Ric Flair needs one more regin as World Champion in TNA

8. Goldust is still better then Cody


----------



## SHIRLEY

LaurinaitisOSU said:


> 1. Pre-Big Poppa Pump and injuries , Scott Steiner was the perfect wrestling machine. His strength, speed and technical skills was no where matched by anybody.
> 
> 2. Rick Rude is the best wrestler never to hold a major World Title.
> 
> 3. Delirious, Necro Butcher and El Generico should never be allowed in ROH ever again.
> 
> 4. Claudio is better then Chris Hero.
> 
> 5. Christian isn't close to being as good as most people on here thinks.
> 
> 6. Dr. Death is the most underrated wrestler of all-time
> 
> 7. Ric Flair needs one more regin as World Champion in TNA
> 
> 8. Goldust is still better then Cody


I'll treat this as a true or false.

1. False. He was the second best Steiner IMO and often looked shaky in pressure matches. A very erratic, hyperactive character. Fun to watch nonetheless.

2. That is probably true. Other contenders include Piper, Hennig, Hall, Davey Boy Smith, Arn Anderson.

3. False. Extremely false. Necro, maybe...

4. Its a close one.

5. False.

6. False. Max Moon is the most underrated wrestler of all time.

7. Oh dear God! What purpose would that serve?

8. False. Dustin in 1993 was better than Cody will ever be but in 2010 he's much worse.


----------



## GOD OF CUNT

Shirley Crabtree said:


> 6. False. Max Moon is the most underrated wrestler of all time.


Is this a joke?

Not trolling or anything, I'm genuinely curious.


----------



## erikstans07

I'm sure a lot of wrestling fans outside of this section would agree with this, but some here might not. Here goes:

I enjoy wrestling a lot more when I'm not complaining and/or critiquing so much. I'm mostly speaking of when there are wrestlers I enjoy in the ring. If Davey Richards, Bryan Danielson, Generico, Mysterio, etc are in the ring, I don't sit there and think about the star rating of the match. I just sit back and enjoy watching those guys do work. Sure, some matches are better than others, but damn, just enjoy watching good wrestlers wrestle.


----------



## Emperor DC

Here's a good one.

Edge sucks. He has only been entertaining when with a women at his side, either Lita or Vickie who was the one that got the true heat in the partnership. 

Oh, and another.

Christian is so vastly overrated, it's becoming annoying. I'd like to slap every damn person that posts in the Smackdown spoiler thread on a weekly basis complaining about him "not getting what he deserves". He skipped to TNA and then ran back with his tail between his legs when he got the fact that the grass is not always greener. 

Oh, and another. Triple H is the motherfucking man. Fuck the haters about his so-called power trip and holding guys down. He made Orton and Batista look credible by backing them and seems to have done the same to Sheamus, who is improving week on week. People only think so badly of him because he is shagging Stephanie (the lucky ....). The IWC seems the worse in anyone that seems to have any sembelence of relationship to a higher up in any company. (Hunter, Cena, McIntyre, Sheamus, etc.)


----------



## erikstans07

Emperor DC, your examples of guys that Hunter puts over are guys that are tight with him. Not to mention that Orton's the only one that's really worked out as a main eventer. Batista was a great heel in his last run, but his matches were mostly skippable. Same with Sheamus.

You are sorta right though. Even if Trips doesn't put someone over by losing to them, he puts them over by just being in the ring with them. Some guys don't have to lose the match to put someone over and he's learned to do that.


----------



## McQueen

I'm not really a fan of Big Dave but saying he didn't work out as a main eventer is false. He might not have been the best in ring performer and he might have gotten hurt a lot but he was obviously a success as far as WWE was concerned. Mofo was crazy over.


----------



## OldschoolHero

Been viewing this for a bit, thought Id give some of mine:

I think wcw from November 2000-Close was a great product.

Had wCw allowed Bishoff to be 70% in control of the new blood storylines with just a little bit of influence, it might have worked out.

Ive been apart of a couple "lets go Cena/Lets go whoever" chants, and half the guys cheering for the other wrestler...are wearing John Cena merch. Its not an opinion, but I wanted to throw that out there.

I enjoy watching Arn Anderson more than I do Flair.

Ill throw more out later.


----------



## Emperor DC

McQueen said:


> I'm not really a fan of Big Dave but saying he didn't work out as a main eventer is false. He might not have been the best in ring performer and he might have gotten hurt a lot but he was obviously a success as far as WWE was concerned. Mofo was crazy over.


Exactly. Let's be honest here, the WWE is not like ROH. You are not judges solely by the matches you put on, it's about the whole package. Big Dave had a stellar career considering he only really become a star in 2004. Six years and a good portion of that was spent on the shelf.

Besides, he was not an awful worker. He had good matches when up against The Undertaker. They were some of the best matches of that paticular year.


----------



## jpchicago23

Batista may not have been the best in ring worker but he was a huge main event attraction. I see him as the Ultimate Warrior to Cena's Hogan. Both were never the best in the ring but would headline Wrestlemania and draw really well. There's a place for guys like that


----------



## McQueen

I think Cena is fantastic in the ring but not as a hold for hold kinda guy like say a Regal or Danielson. And maybe not so much in TV matches either but he really brings it for PPV matches,.


----------



## Thisskateboarding

Booker T an Golddust were a more entertaining team than Edge and Christian


----------



## CHAIRSHOT!!

big boss man should be a first round ballot for the hall of fame. best cage match with hogan ever


----------



## TheBusiness

Matt hardy or Christian should never be world champions 

Miz and cm punk are mid carders at best

Edge still has it, and for me has always been one of the top guys, he's been a good face and heel, good in ring, amazing on the mic, and has been a good tag, mid card and main eventer

Cenas rapper gimmick > current gimmick

Ortons cocky heel > viper gimmick

Micheal cole and Matt striker are both good announcers

Don west should be tna's color commentator

Samoa joe is good, but very overrated


----------



## xzeppelinfootx

1.CHIKARA is the most entertaining and best booked American Independant today.


----------



## TheAce

> 1.CHIKARA is the most entertaining and best booked American Independant today.



Beat you to the punch, look 3 pages back =p


also, I totally agree, lol.


----------



## We'veSeenaNuff

CHAIRSHOT!! said:


> big boss man should be a first round ballot for the hall of fame. best cage match with hogan ever


I didn't think that match was all that fantastic. Hogan and Bundy from Wrestlemania is underrated and just as good, but this match has the big superplex spot that everybody gets a hard on for.


----------



## Craig

Right I'm gonna read through this later on so apologies for treading on anything someone has already said

1. Cena/Umaga LMS is the most over-rated match ever, it makes no logical sense to me and just feels like a match built around a few spots which, albiet cool, either made no sense or looked horribly fake.

2. I find Bret Hart insanely boring in the ring, to the extent that unless he's fighting one of my personal favourites I can't watch him.

3) FMW is possibly my favourite promotion ever, in all it's pure insane glory.

4) Ric Flair is possibly my favourite wrestler of the last 10 years.

5) I like Abyss

6) I would much rather watch a Yoshi Tatsu or Goldust match than a John Cena one (95% of the time at least)

7) I love whacky storylines in wrestling.

8) The 1995 King Of The Deathmatch is the worst event in the history of professional wrestling, and I say that as someone who views Mick Foley as the greatest wrestler ever.

9) Mick Foley is the greatest all-round wrestler ever.

10) I'd take damn near any match featuring either Shane or Vince McMahon over like 85% of wrestling over-all.

11) I'd take Kawada over Misawa or Kobashi (Not immensly unpopular but different)

12) My top 5 wrestlers of all time:

1) Mick Foley

2) Toshiaki Kawada

3) Vader

4) Undertaker

5) Chris Benoit/Jushin Liger/Eddie Guerrero(Can't decide)

13) I'd call Keijji Mutoh hideously under-rated

14) I find 90s NJPW to be severely over-rated mostly

15) I still greatly enjoy the attitude era

16) Aja Kong is in my top 10 wrestlers of all time regardless of gender

I'll stop for the night, think up some more later.


----------



## hazuki

Heel Batista was boring.


----------



## Dug2356

Inless you stick a table near them The Dudleys/Team 3D Suck and do not ever deserve to be called the greatest tag team of any generation let alone all time as tna likes to state.


----------



## FITZ

Craig said:


> 8) The 1995 King Of The Deathmatch is the worst event in the history of professional wrestling, and I say that as someone who views Mick Foley as the greatest wrestler ever.


I don't know if I would say the worst event ever but it was a terrible show overall. Foley and Funk had a good match but everything else was just shit. And a lot of that had to do with the fact that Tiger Jeet Singh wrestled in it, and I think he was in more than one match too.


----------



## sterling

Craig said:


> 1. Cena/Umaga LMS is the most over-rated match ever, it makes no logical sense to me and just feels like a match built around a few spots which, albiet cool, either made no sense or looked horribly fake.


<3 you Craig, but the match fucking rules. Piss off. Fucker. Just playing. <3 you Craig.



Craig said:


> 6) I would much rather watch a Yoshi Tatsu or Goldust match than a John Cena one (95% of the time at least)


I'm probably among the biggest Tatsu/Goldust fans on this board, and even I can't get behind this statement. Then again, I'm probably among the biggest Cena fans on this board. Cena fucking rules. Yoshi Tatsu rules. Goldust fucking rules. WWE Superstars is the best wrestling show on TV. By a million fucking miles.



TheBusiness said:


> Matt hardy or Christian should never be world champions
> 
> Miz and cm punk are mid carders at best
> 
> Edge still has it, and for me has always been one of the top guys, he's been a good face and heel, good in ring, amazing on the mic, and has been a good tag, mid card and main eventer


Edge is garbage. Edge still has garbage in his veins. CM Punk is the best overall talent in the business. Christian is the best all-around babyface in the business. Christian is a thousand times better than Edge has ever been, in the ring and on the mic, working babyface or heel. Matt Hardy is fat and out-of-shape and still a better worker than in-his-prime Edge. Prime Matt Hardy smokes the shit out of Edge. 

Evan Bourne is a top 5 worker in the WWE today. Anyone who calls Evan Bourne a "spot monkey" is a fuckballtardwadshitfacecocklessfuckballasssssss. Dude sells his ass off and bumps better than Rey Myfuckingsterio.

Andy should watch more Evan Bourne.

Chris Masters fucking rules. 2010 Chris Masters is better in the ring than 2010 Chris Jericho. And I've marked pretty hard for Jericho, so don't take that as the blind statement from an ignorant Jericho-hater. Jericho is deteriorating rapidly. Still a good performer though because he's funny, but I wouldn't call him a "great worker" in 2010, and I'd barely call him a "good" one. 

New Katy Perry single ("California Gurls") is fucking rad as shit.


----------



## CHAIRSHOT!!

i think most of these opinions are wrong


----------



## Yeah1993

^Well yeah, "unpopluar".

One more:
-London and Kendrick are crap.


----------



## HoMiCiDaL26

John Cena is the best guy in the WWE at the moment for putting on classic matches. Even moreso than Undertaker, to an extent.

WWE's roster is so weak nowadays, I really have no desire to watch the weekly shows. Oh how I wish Kurt Angle (dare I say), RVD and etc. were still working for the WWE.

I'm going to be butthurt over Shawn's absence once WrestleMania 27 rolls around.

Jack Swagger is the best thing on SmackDown at the moment. More interesting than CM Punk, Mysterio, Kane, Rhodes etc.

SummerSlam is going to be awful this year.

Despite Edge being my favourite wrestler, I'm losing interest in his lack of creative direction and decline in his ring work.

Chris Jericho is overrated.

John Cena is underrated.

Jeff Hardy might be the best seller of all time. Probably the best bumper too. Thats why I like his matches so much.

TNA is the worst promotion in the history of professional wrestling.

I may stop watching WWE altogether once Mysterio and Taker finish up.


----------



## Fri Night Delight

The Miz is an over-hyped prick that everyone on the IWC likes to wank to.

Randy Orton looks like a douche punching the ground.

Maryse looks hideous

John Morrison WILL be world champion

The Nexus suck and are already stale

Shawn Micheals is an over-rated corpse

Eddie Gurrero sucked majorly


----------



## HoMiCiDaL26

Fri Night Delight said:


> The Miz is an over-hyped prick that everyone on the IWC likes to wank to.
> 
> Randy Orton looks like a douche punching the ground.
> 
> Maryse looks hideous
> 
> John Morrison WILL be world champion
> 
> The Nexus suck and are already stale
> 
> Shawn Micheals is an over-rated corpse
> 
> Eddie Gurrero sucked majorly


AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH


----------



## seancarleton77

A John Cena fan saying Eddie Guerrero sucked and Shawn Michaels is an overrated corpse = laughter, but good for this thread.

Glory by Honor IX will prove once again that WWE and TNA don't have shit on ROH when it comes to the quality of matches, the overall pay per views and booking.


----------



## HoMiCiDaL26

Probably gonna be hated for this, but:

Michael Cole is awesome. His NXT stuff is so good, and his commentary doesn't bother me AT ALL.


----------



## BkB Hulk

- Can't be bothered quoting, but FUCK, I love Sterling for his Masters love. I'd take a match with Masters over a match with just about any combination of WWE main eventers today.

- Batista was a pretty great wrestler, albeit lazy. When the time came to step up he always delivered.

- Umaga became one of the best monster wrestlers of all-time following his time in Japan. He has nothing on Vader, of course, but the guy was astoundingly good.

- Ken Kennedy's a piece of shit and forever will be. He has one promo I remember as good, but apart from that, especially in TNA, his promos are just illogical garbage which have no focus, and leave you thinking about how much of a moron Kennedy is rather than whatever the hell he was talking about.

- Even if he just likes to kick the shit out of people for nearfalls, I've always found Davey Richards entertaining. Logical? No, but he has some quality that draws me to him, despite me not liking guys who usually wrestle in his mould of omfg let's go hundreds of nearfalls with no real reason behind them (Angle and The Briscoes especially).

- AJ Styles is great as a face, but as a heel he's one of the worst wrestlers in mainstream wrestling.

- Rey Mysterio is the best in the world, closely followed by John Cena.

- Lashley was great. Perhaps not so much in his TNA run, but he had an awesome aura that I loved in his WWE run, and he put on a few great matches.

- Finlay should have gotten a world title reign in 2006 or 2007, even if it was just a transitional one. The guy was and is an absolute freak. I would say the same about Regal, but he blew his own chance, so I don't really have any sympathy for him.

- Gregory Helms deserved oh so much more than being head of a flailing division in '06/'07. The guy was one of the best in the industry at the time.

- Shelton Benjamin is a horribly inconsistent wrestler and was always inferior to Charlie Haas.

That'll do me for now.


----------



## sterling

Mostly superduper awesome stuff, BXB Hulk. Don't know if I'd call Kennedy a piece of shit, but I also don't really care for his mic work, and I don't think he's anything special in the ring. But I did like his match with Taker from NM06 (which Cal LOVED), and I thought Kennedy was at least good in the match. Also agreed on Mysterio being the best in the world. I'd take Christian and Punk over Cena, and maybe Bourne, too. But yeah, that's my top 5 for WWE. And then probably Show and Swagger, and then probably Regal and Masters and Ziggler.

Agreed on the Davey stuff, too, I think. I mean, I can't get behind the BEST EVERZ love he gets, but I also don't get the WORST EVERZ he hate he draws in some places. I mean, the dude loves the shit out of the shit he does, and he brings an intensity that I can't hate, even if he sometimes goes so batshit crazy with his over-the-top stuff that I find it off-putting. 




HoMiCiDaL26 said:


> WWE's roster is so weak nowadays, I really have no desire to watch the weekly shows. Oh how I wish Kurt Angle (dare I say), RVD and etc. were still working for the WWE.
> 
> Jeff Hardy might be the best seller of all time. Probably the best bumper too. Thats why I like his matches so much.


First off, I like Jeff and would agree that he's a bumping machine. But Christian's comfortably better at bumping/selling, and he's not even the best of all time. So yeah, there's a 0% chance that Jeff is the best EVER.

Second off, that first statement could hardly be considered an "unpopular opinion" in these parts: everyone shits on the current product. But yeah, WWE's roster is fucking stacked. 

Guys in the WWE who are currently better than Kurt Angle:

Rey Mysterio
CM Punk
Christian
Evan Bourne
John Cena
Jack Swagger
Big Show
William Regal
Chris Masters
Dolph Ziggler
Yoshi Tatsu
Tyson Kidd
Chris Jericho
Goldust
The Miz
Randy Orton
Mark Henry
Primo
Sheamus
Luke Gallows
Matt Hardy
The Undertaker

I'm probably forgetting someboday, and there are probably a handful of other ones, but they're maybe a bit more debatable. Drew McIntyre is about one more good match away from being a definite on the list. Ryder is close, but I'm not convinced he can have a good match without a really good babyface there to lead him. If I said Layla, people would think I was joking.

Layla fucking rules.


----------



## Tarfu

HoMiCiDaL26 said:


> Probably gonna be hated for this, but:
> 
> Michael Cole is awesome. His NXT stuff is so good, and his commentary doesn't bother me AT ALL.


You're right. He gets way too much shit for no good reason. Sure, he's a moron, but that's what makes his character. The only thing that really pisses me off about him is how he always - and I mean _always_ - calls the powerslam a fucking scoopslam. FUCK. Other than that, he's good.

As for Davey Richards, I'm on the same boat as BkB and sterling. No way is the best, but he can put on a fun match with practically anyone. Fighting Spirit style noselling and ridiculous nearfalls are something that I personally loath, but if I see his name in a match-up, I know I will most likely enjoy whatever he makes of it. It's strange.


----------



## sterling

Tarfu said:


> You're right. He gets way too much shit for no good reason. Sure, he's a moron, but that's what makes his character. The only thing that really pisses me off about him is how he always - and I mean _always_ - *calls the powerslam a fucking scoopslam*. FUCK. Other than that, he's good.


Holy shit. That drives me mad, too. For real. Except on PPV, when Striker and Cole call together, and it's like they're racing to see who can call it first. Sometimes, Cole yells, "SCOOP SLAM!" and then Striker yells, "MADDOG POWERSLAM!" There was a PPV where Orton and Punk both had matches, and they both use powerslams, and in the first one, Cole got his "scoop slam" in, so in the second guy's match (I don't know which show/what order), when he hit a powerslam, Striker instantly and loudly yelled, "MADDOG POWERSLAM!" It was awesome.


----------



## GOD OF CUNT

sterling said:


> Evan Bourne is a top 5 worker in the WWE today. Anyone who calls Evan Bourne a "spot monkey" is a fuckballtardwadshitfacecocklessfuckballasssssss. Dude sells his ass off and bumps better than Rey Myfuckingsterio.
> 
> Andy should watch more Evan Bourne.


Yeah, the whole "Bourne is a spot monkey" thing seems as silly to me as "Rey is a spot monkey" and all that nonsense. I can only assume that people who think that have a completely different interpretation of what a spot monkey is than I do. 

2010 Edge is a spot monkey. 2010 Naomuchi Marufuji is a MASSIVE spot monkey. 

Guys that load their matches with spots that don't really mean dick are spot monkeys. 

Guys that work their matches around hope spots and selling aren't spot monkeys.

Most of it comes from the whole "if you're a flier then you're a spot monkey" talking point, though. Which is utterly retarded, btw.

And I do need to see more Bourne. 



Fri Night Delight said:


> Eddie Gurrero sucked majorly


How does one come to this conclusion?


----------



## Clique

Not an unpopular opinion in the world or in the industry but around here it is so I'll say Kurt Angle is one of the best wrestlers in the business today and I agree with him being the wrestler of the decade.


----------



## Fri Night Delight

Check out this fucking idiot red repping me because I voices some thing in Unpopular wrestling opinions...



The Clique said:


> Unpopular Wrestling...
> 
> 08-05-2010
> 
> 11:24 AM
> 
> KuritaDavion
> 
> Morrison world title. Better chance he'll get suspened


Its a thread about unpopular opinions captain blowjob read the title the thread is gunna say stuff you that will make you cry your fat fucking ass off.


----------



## jawbreaker

My brain just melted a little...


----------



## GOD OF CUNT

Fri Night Delight said:


> Check out this fucking idiot red repping me because I voices some thing in Unpopular wrestling opinions...
> 
> 
> 
> Its a thread about unpopular opinions captain blowjob read the title the thread is gunna say stuff you that will make you cry your fat fucking ass off.


What is it that makes you think "Eddie Guerrero sucks majorly", btw.

I'm not going to red rep you and I'm not gonna cry my fat fucking ass off, but there's some stuff been posted in here that seems really nutty to me and I'm interested in how whoever's saying it actually comes to that conclusion.


----------



## sterling

I'd agree with the assertion that if someone makes a ridiculous claim like "Eddie Guerrero sucked majorly," and someone else asks them to back that up, then the first person should probably provide a reason for claiming that Eddie Guerrero sucked. Not that I'm going to get mad or whatever about someone thinking Eddie was bad (even though he was pretty much a perfect pro wrestler), but I'm curious, and the thread is kinda silly if folks aren't willing to provide reasons behind their bold statements.


----------



## GOD OF CUNT

Yeah, stuff like "Kurt Angle is one of the best wrestlers ever" is an opinion I definitely don't agree with, but it's a talking point that people have had for years and it's been argued pretty well by them in the past. I don't agree with it, but it's not something that's out of left field.

"Eddie Guerrero sucked majorly" on the other hand seems way out of left field and is a talking point I've never heard, nor do I understand it. Or agree with it.


----------



## jpchicago23

Yea Guerrero pretty much had the complete package. He could work the mic as an asshole heel, he could be comedic, he could be a scared cry baby heel, and he could make everyone love him whenever he wanted. He could also work really good 4 to 5 star cruiserweight matches as well as 4 star heavyweight matches. One of the true greats in my opinion so i'd like to see the reason behind him being so bad


----------



## Yeah1993

Joey Styles was crap. I want to punch myself when I hear "set for teh ride", "scoop and a slam" in that shitty quick voice he does. Only time I like him is when he does those kinda tame ".......Oh My God....."s that doesn't involve him yelling like a moron.


----------



## TheBusiness

I agree Joey styles sucks

However dunno if people agree or not but i think don west is an awesome announcer, because he's very enthusiastic and sells the big moments to perfection, unlike Josh Matthews, who everyone seems to love recently


----------



## jpchicago23

I didnt mind Don West because he seemed to actually be in the moment unlike that douche Tenay. He has been so horrible since his WCW days.


----------



## ceeder

Hip and cool heel Tenay was hilarious.


----------



## seancarleton77

Joey Styles was a mark with a microphone and a cheap suit, now he's just an asshole in an expensive suit.


----------



## Mr.English

Chris Benoit is the Best Wrestler ever.


----------



## HoMiCiDaL26

Tarfu said:


> You're right. He gets way too much shit for no good reason. Sure, he's a moron, but that's what makes his character. The only thing that really pisses me off about him is how he always - and I mean _always_ - calls the powerslam a fucking scoopslam. FUCK. Other than that, he's good.


I dislike it when he used to say kick out at 2 when the wrestler clearly kicked out at 1. But that's all that really bothers me about him. He could be a monster heel, with ease.



> First off, I like Jeff and would agree that he's a bumping machine. But Christian's comfortably better at bumping/selling, and he's not even the best of all time. So yeah, there's a 0% chance that Jeff is the best EVER.
> 
> Second off, that first statement could hardly be considered an "unpopular opinion" in these parts: everyone shits on the current product. But yeah, WWE's roster is fucking stacked.


Jeff looks like he's legit fucked himself up after ever move. I love his selling, in particular the matches with Punk (the last 2).

According to the thread I made in the WWE section my opinion is unpopular.


----------



## jawbreaker

I didn't absolutely love Jeff/Punk TLC, but the cage match was great.


----------



## BkB Hulk

Orton's a much better seller than Jeff imo, as are Rey and Evan Bourne.



TheBusiness said:


> I agree Joey styles sucks
> 
> However dunno if people agree or not but i think don west is an awesome announcer, because he's very enthusiastic and sells the big moments to perfection, unlike Josh Matthews, who everyone seems to love recently


Ugh, I completely disagree with this. Don West sells EVERYTHING, thus nothing seems more important than anything else. When you have a big angle, then you hype it like hell. Don't hype it in the same manner you hyped Mike Tenay buying a pizza earlier that day.

If you had said he was hilarious as a a heel to justify your point I would have agreed though.


----------



## J-Coke

I don't see why people are getting behind The Miz! Sure, he has charisma but the way he wrestles is nothing to brag about. I do not see him as a future main eventer and I cannot see him compete with the likes of Cena, Orton, etc. He's basically a jobber with a big mouth!


----------



## couturecorpse

jpchicago23 said:


> I didnt mind Don West because he seemed to actually be in the moment unlike that douche Tenay. He has been so horrible since his WCW days.


agreed 100%


----------



## BkB Hulk

J-Coke said:


> I don't see why people are getting behind The Miz! Sure, he has charisma but the way he wrestles is nothing to brag about. I do not see him as a future main eventer and I cannot see him compete with the likes of Cena, Orton, etc. He's basically a jobber with a big mouth!


I get that you may not like his wrestling skills, but calling him a jobber with a big mouth isn't really justifiable. He's on the cusp of the main event and is far from a jobber.


----------



## ColeStar

I quite like David Otunga.


----------



## Yeah1993

BkB Hulk said:


> I get that you may not like his wrestling skills, but calling him a jobber with a big mouth isn't really justifiable. He's on the cusp of the main event and is far from a jobber.


I think he means Mizanin would be a jobber if it wasn't for his big mouth, something like that.


----------



## BkB Hulk

That doesn't make a whole lot of sense though. What are they then judging him on if you can acknowledge his ability to cut a promo and thus bring people in? Wrestling skills rarely, if ever, mean anything in WWE.


----------



## Emperor Palpatine

While we are on the subject of The Jiz... imo he is the WORST money in the bank winner ever. I hope he becomes the first guy to lose his title shot after cashing it in (not like Kennedy who lost it without cashing in).


----------



## HoMiCiDaL26

KANE is the worst Money in the Bank winner to date.


----------



## Emperor Palpatine

MITB winners from worst to best:

The Jiz
RVD
Kane
Swagger
Kennedy
Punk
Edge


----------



## andy-500

KingCal said:


> MITB winners from worst to best:
> 
> The Jiz
> RVD
> Kane
> Swagger
> Kennedy
> Punk
> Edge


I'd say RVD has had the best cash in. You could argue about Edge cashing in for the first time, or Punk cashing in on Hardy - but there is no doubt RVD is up there, so its harsh to call him one of the worst winners.


----------



## Emperor Palpatine

andy-500 said:


> I'd say RVD has had the best cash in. You could argue about Edge cashing in for the first time, or Punk cashing in on Hardy - but there is no doubt RVD is up there, so its harsh to call him one of the worst winners.


His cash in match against Cena at ONS was pretty good, but I wasn't listing them as best to worst cash-ins, just best to worst overall talent and who I personally liked winning the matches the most. When Edge won in 05, it was awesome, and his near year build up with the case was great too. RVD I'm not a fan of, and wasn't a fan of at the time either. Didn't like him winning the belt.


----------



## Punk_4_Life

Let's see

-Miz is boring and monotonous on the mic, horrible in the ring
-Undertaker is overrated atm and all he does is bury young talent, without even making them look good in a match
-Kennedy is just plain shit
-Layla is not hot (par the ass)
-Kelly Kelly just looks like a fucking dumb broad with a stupid smile on her face
-McIntyre is entertaining, good on the mic and in the ring
-Edge's face run was good, or atleast not horrible like people make it look like
-Christian is very repetative in the ring(I still like him though and he puts on great matches no the less)
-Orton is good on the mic 
-Tarver is horrible in every department


----------



## Bubz

Don West was hilarious

some things i just dont get in this thread, i know its unpopular opinions, but Eddie Guerrero sucks majorly?....Jesus!


----------



## jpchicago23

I really think all of this Miz hate is comical. For someone to say he is shit in the ring and say Cena is good is rediculous. Granted Miz is not the greatest ring technician of all time either but he is at the same level if not better than Cena and improving at a faster pace. Let Miz grow for a while in the mian event scene and see where his character goes. IMO he's already better than most on the mic and deserves a decent push. Once again i'm not saying he is the greatest wrestler but i do think the WWE could do worse ie another Cena vs. Orton feud. He's done good at the mid card scene, mastered the weak tag team division so its only logical to give him a chance. Hell they gave Sheamus a shot without having to earn it


----------



## seancarleton77

Miz is probably as good as Cena in ring, and nowhere near as good as Orton.


----------



## jpchicago23

I agree. I'd like to see Miz work with Orton too just to see who has a better series, Miz or Cena. I also dont like Orton as a face as much but i guess they dont have enough main event faces to even it out.


----------



## zidane2000

1) Bryan Danielson is overrated in the stuff i have seen from him.
2) Randy Orton is boring on the mic and average at best in the ring.
3) Morishima is better than Samoa Joe.
4) WCW 1998-2001 was still some entertaining and exciting stuff.
5) Vince Russo is a creative guy who just needs more guidance.
6) TNA has been better in parts than the WWE over the last few years.
7) The Nexus angle is good but is not going to change the face of wrestling as much as everyone is saying it will.
8) Edge has been boring since about 2004 onwards and I still dont see the big appeal about him.
9) Kane deserves to hold the World title but it should have happened about 5 years earlier.
10) Evan Bourne shouldnt be pushed higher than the mid card.
11) The Miz is possibly the most overrated wrestler in the history of wrestling. Hes ok but nowhere near as good as the IWC hype him as.
12) TNA is going nowhere with Dixie at the helm.


----------



## jawbreaker

What Danielson stuff have you seen?


----------



## zidane2000

A good amount of his ROH stuff, IMO he doesnt interest me.


----------



## sterling

seancarleton77 said:


> Miz is probably as good as Cena in ring, and nowhere near as good as Orton.


Cena is a thousand times better than Orton in the ring. Cena's a better top babyface worker than Rocky or Austin. I don't think it'd be terribly insane to toy with the idea that Cena might be on the level of a Bret Hart as a top babyface worker, though I'd take Bret over Cena if forced to choose. 

The Miz is a really good worker, btw. Among MITB winners, I might put him at 3rd best. He's definitely not as good as 2010 Swagger or 08/09 Punk, and he's definitely better than 2010 Kane, and I'd probably take him over 2006 RVD and 2007 Kennedy. Not sure about 2005 Edge, though. But yeah, he'd be around the middle-ish, but the cool thing about the Miz is that he's still young and hungry and getting better in the ring and on the mic and settling brilliantly into his character, and his teased cash-ins have ruled completely.

Josh Mathews is the best commentator in the business today. Jerry Lawler is the worst.


----------



## Blasko

Tenryu is better then Jumbo.


----------



## Yeah1993

BkB Hulk said:


> That doesn't make a whole lot of sense though. What are they then judging him on if you can acknowledge his ability to cut a promo and thus bring people in? Wrestling skills rarely, if ever, mean anything in WWE.


It makes perfect sense if I'd explain it properly.  I don't think the guy thought The miz *had* good mic skills, but he was probably saying if The Miz wasn't so "big-mouthed" or out-spoken, he wouldn't be anythign but a jobber.

Not that I agree, though. Vince's said a fair bit he's a really hard worker, w/e that is, so that has to mean something.



jpchicago23 said:


> I really think all of this Miz hate is comical. *For someone to say he is shit in the ring and say Cena is good is rediculous.* Granted Miz is not the greatest ring technician of all time either but he is at the same level if not better than Cena and improving at a faster pace. Let Miz grow for a while in the mian event scene and see where his character goes. IMO he's already better than most on the mic and deserves a decent push. Once again i'm not saying he is the greatest wrestler but i do think the WWE could do worse ie another Cena vs. Orton feud. He's done good at the mid card scene, mastered the weak tag team division so its only logical to give him a chance. Hell they gave Sheamus a shot without having to earn it


The Miz > Cena? That's pretty ridiculous in itself. Cena's not a "ring technician" at all, but he's still better than a lot of the "technical" guys that come through, and he's certainly way way way way way way ahead of Mizanin. having more moves than a guy doesn't make you a better worker.


----------



## Notorious

Yeah1993 said:


> It makes perfect sense if I'd explain it properly.  I don't think the guy thought The miz *had* good mic skills, but he was probably saying if The Miz wasn't so "big-mouthed" or out-spoken, he wouldn't be anythign but a jobber.
> 
> Not that I agree, though. Vince's said a fair bit he's a really hard worker, w/e that is, so that has to mean something.
> 
> 
> 
> The Miz > Cena? That's pretty ridiculous in itself. Cena's not a "ring technician" at all, but he's still better than a lot of the "technical" guys that come through, and he's certainly way way way way way way ahead of Mizanin. having more moves than a guy doesn't make you a better worker.


I agree with this. People complain about Cena being overrated so much to the point that it makes him underrated.


----------



## BkB Hulk

Ugh, I would have thought that the Cena hate wouldn't have seeped into this thread since, for the most part, it's had pretty intelligent debates going on, and any debate surrounding Cena generally centres around his "lack" of moves. The guy has proven for years that he's one of the best in the business and has put on stacks of great matches, getting the best out a lot of different workers. I really don't say how people can see he's shit and justify it in a logical manner. To me it just seems like they're jaded because they don't like his character.



Yeah1993 said:


> It makes perfect sense if I'd explain it properly.  I don't think the guy thought The miz *had* good mic skills, but he was probably saying if The Miz wasn't so "big-mouthed" or out-spoken, he wouldn't be anythign but a jobber.
> 
> Not that I agree, though. Vince's said a fair bit he's a really hard worker, w/e that is, so that has to mean something.


Oh. Well now I'm just going to blame you for being a jobber.


----------



## TheBusiness

Cenas hated for his character yes, but when you have been in the business so long like cena, and only have like 4 moves it is fucking annoying, and for me he hasn't had that many classic matches, although The miz isn't exactly any better

A couple of others, the Jerry lawler hate on here it ridiculous

Why is goldust bummed on here, yet edge is apparently past yet, yet goldust isn't, I mean give me a break


----------



## BkB Hulk

TheBusiness said:


> Cenas hated for his character yes, but when you have been in the business so long like cena, and only have like 4 moves it is fucking annoying, and for me he hasn't had that many classic matches, although The miz isn't exactly any better
> 
> A couple of others, the Jerry lawler hate on here it ridiculous
> 
> Why is goldust bummed on here, yet edge is apparently past yet, yet goldust isn't, I mean give me a break


The "four moves" is ludicrous, because he obviously has more (not that it really matters). Orton has about the same amount of moves as a face too, if not less. Yet that complaint never comes up.

I'm probably a bigger fan of it than most on here as well, but Cena/Umaga LMS is one of my favourite matches ever. It helps that I LOVE both workers, but damn.

Goldust actually puts on some good matches on Superstars. I'm not saying Edge has gone majorly down hill, because I enjoyed his WrestleMania match, but Goldust is still good, surprisingly.


----------



## antoniomare007

wait, so the Jerry Lawler hate is ridiculous but Cena only having 4 moves is annoying


----------



## jawbreaker

I don't find WWE to be worth spending the time to watch.


----------



## jpchicago23

Cena is NOT a great worker!!!! He is good on the mic and with the Hogan like comebacks at the end of matches but other than that he brings nothing special. If he doesnt have a good worker like Jericho, HBK, or even Orton in the ring with him what does he bring? Cena wrestles in a way that can be experienced through radio once you've seen him a few times. You can pretty much predict every one of his matches with a dusty finish if he loses or a pathetic comeback if he wins. I'm not saying Miz is the second coming or that all technical wrestlers are great ie Dave Taylor but come on be serious Cena a great worker?


----------



## Horselover Fat

^^^^^
who was a better worker cena or gangrel


----------



## jpchicago23

HA! Gangrel was purely a gimmick and a few decent mid-card matches


----------



## BkB Hulk

jpchicago23 said:


> Cena is NOT a great worker!!!! He is good on the mic and with the Hogan like comebacks at the end of matches but other than that he brings nothing special. If he doesnt have a good worker like Jericho, HBK, or even Orton in the ring with him what does he bring? Cena wrestles in a way that can be experienced through radio once you've seen him a few times. You can pretty much predict every one of his matches with a dusty finish if he loses or a pathetic comeback if he wins. I'm not saying Miz is the second coming or that all technical wrestlers are great ie Dave Taylor but come on be serious Cena a great worker?


Yes, Cena is a great worker. I don't know how you can simply dismiss him as only having good matches against Jericho, Michaels and Orton when he's had good matches with guys like The Great Khali, Lashley (who I like, but I know a lot of others don't), JBL and Triple H (who has wrestled some awful matches since 2003). Criticizing his style of working seems completely asinine too, as it's like saying Rey Mysterio sucks for the way he plays the face in peril so well.


----------



## Rawlin

Cena's a goddamn great worker, jesus, how are people still denying this. he's had some of the most memorable matches of the past decade, he even put on a great match campaign with fucking JBL. i love JBL the character, and he was amazing on the mic, but in the ring he was generally dreadful and put me to sleep. but when he was with cena, it was great. 

it's not his fault his character is the way he is, or that he's made to be like "Superman." that's how it's booked. that's how it gets played out. but to just shove him to the side like he hasn't been performing exceptionally well is beyond me.

and the goddamn "four moves" thing is ridiculous, people continue to exaggerate his moveset to an infuriating degree.


----------



## FITZ

Here is why Cena is great worker:

He always has good matches. There really isn't anything else that I feel like saying about it. Just look at all the great matches he's been in. He also had great matches with Batista and Lashley so he clearly doesn't need someone to carry him. 

And now to something that doesn't involve Cena,

El Generico is one of the best guys on the indies right now. Yeah he has a goofy gimmick but the guy is insanely over and he's someone that you can really get behind in his matches.


----------



## sterling

jawbreaker said:


> I don't find WWE to be worth spending the time to watch.


I'd rather watch a throwaway 10-minute match on WWE Superstars between Chris Masters and Luke Gallows (pretty sure the date was 6/22, and both guys are stellar workers, and the match totally ruled) than the vast majority of shit on the indies.

I need to watch more Generico.


----------



## ceeder

Orlando Jordan is a very good in-ring worker, but his talents are ignored due to the **** stuff he has going on. He's fast, aggressive, and has an assortment of moves in the ring. Works well with anybody, even an immobile tool like Rob Terry.


----------



## FITZ

sterling said:


> I'd rather watch a throwaway 10-minute match on WWE Superstars between Chris Masters and Luke Gallows (pretty sure the date was 6/22, and both guys are stellar workers, and the match totally ruled) than the vast majority of shit on the indies.
> 
> I need to watch more Generico.


You should see more of Generico. 

I know what you mean, there is just a lot of bad wrestling out there on the indies. I don't agree with you as I've grown really tired of WWE's style of matches as of late, or at least the style they seem to work on TV. 

If we're talking short matches I will take 10 minutes of 2 solid workers on the indies over 10 minutes on WWE TV but I can't stand it when 2 average workers go 15-20 minutes.

It's why I like what Evolve has been doing so much. they keep most of their matches short and fun. I don't need to see someone like Ricochet wrestling a "20 minute epic." Let him do all his cool stuff and have him out of the ring in 10 minutes or less. 

I don't know if this is an unpopular opinion but I think most undercard matches on indy shows shouldn't last more than 15 minutes.


----------



## Yeah1993

I wouldn't ca;l Cena "great" bar a few nights, probably all in the first four months of 07, but I think he's been b/w good and really good through his whole career (he's sucked a couple of times but that's normal).


----------



## jpchicago23

Ok thats more like it. I just dont see how he's GREAT. I can see someone saying he's a good to decent worker because yes he does bust his ass and do everything thats told of him. But when you're talking about straight work rate and whats great and whats average he's just average. I personally am not one of the Cena haters but i dont love the guy either theres a place for people like him Batista, Warrior, Hogan etc. He's a good draw but not a great worker


----------



## SuperDuperSonic

Sheamus vs. Miz has the potential to be all kinds of awful. Have either one of them ever had a great singles match?


----------



## HoMiCiDaL26

Way I see it is, Cena's matches are good, real good. Usually better than most of the rosters, therefore, Cena is good. 

You think about WWE's roster, who's had the most classic matches in the last 5 years? That's right, Cena. I like him for that and for that only. I think for the most part, he's annoying, but in the ring, he's a treat to watch.

Sheamus' matches have been boring thus far. I honestly have no idea why. His best match is against Trips at 'Mania 26 at ***1/4.

I can't even think of a good Miz match, tbh.


----------



## BkB Hulk

I really enjoyed Sheamus vs. Triple H from WrestleMania. Probably around the same rating as above. Miz, meanwhile, isn't much of a worker. He's solid, but nothing more.


----------



## Rawlin

jpchicago23 said:


> Ok thats more like it. I just dont see how he's GREAT. I can see someone saying he's a good to decent worker because yes he does bust his ass and do everything thats told of him. But when you're talking about straight work rate and whats great and whats average he's just average. I personally am not one of the Cena haters but i dont love the guy either theres a place for people like him *Batista, Warrior, Hogan* etc. He's a good draw but not a great worker


Cena is better in the ring than all three of them. he puts on great matches with EVERYONE. every single damn person you couldn't think could do a great match, Cena has put on a great match with them. Those three you listed did nothing close to that.

and good to decent? John Cena is better than decent. it's pretty much jaded to think otherwise.


----------



## Bubz

Cena is the only person to ever have a good match with Great Kahli...what does that tell you, Taker and Trips and every body else had god awful matches with him.


----------



## sterling

I'll go to bat for the Miz. No, I wouldn't say he's a great worker, but yes, I would say he's a good one, and I'd also say a guy like the Miz is exactly where STAR RATINGS start to become ineffectual. I can't think of a single Miz match that I'd rate super high, but I can still think of plenty of reasons why he's a good worker. He had that awesome two minute match with Danielson on Raw, and both guys brought it. Miz worked stiff and let Danielson hit the crap out of him, and his facial expression after the roll-up was perfect. Not something I'd throw a million stars at, but definitely something I'd call a good performance from the Miz. Basically, I think he's really good in short TV matches: he knows how to focus his offense and make it look good.

Check this match out with Bourne:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6w8pc_evan-bourne-vs-the-miz-16-9-08_sport

Ok, so yeah, Bourne is clearly the better guy in the match, and it's his bumping/selling/offense that really puts it over the top into being a really good 7-minute match. But don't overlook the way the Miz goes out of his way to sell Bourne's kicks in the beginning (which some dudes can be too lazy to do these days), or the way the Miz gets over well for Bourne's ranas/armdrags. And don't overlook how, even with the limited offense he got, the Miz focused on the midsection. He wasn't flashy, but he didn't need to be because he was working with Bourne. He hit his stuff and let Bourne go all bumping machine-mode to make it look awesome, and it turned into a really really good match.

Basically, I'd call the Miz a guy who knows how to work smart and always works hard, and maybe he hasn't had any CLASSICS~. Then again, what opportunities has he had? Can't think of a single time when the Miz has been in a position to have a big-time match and disappointed, but he's been in a lot of quality tags and a lot of very good short matches.

On Sheamus: I feel more or less the same way about him. I still think his offense is too limited to be a top-flight heel (like, in his ER match, I thought Hunter actually turned in a good babyface performance and sold well and everything, but Sheamus held the match back by being boring/repetitive on offense), but he's clearly working like crazy to improve. He can bump and punch. Actually, all his offense looks pretty good. His Mania match with Trips was awesome, and I think his series with Cena gets kinda overlooked. I wouldn't point to any of their matches as being great, but I think they have good chemistry and that's yielded a series of good matches. Oh, and he had a mega-awesome match with Bourne on Raw a few weeks back, and he was awesome in that 5/31 Raw tag (Sheamus/Edge vs. Bourne/Cena-- probably the best WWE tag since ???).


----------



## jpchicago23

WOW McMahon has you guys drinking the Cena Kool-Aid i see. Either most of you are 15 and under or are just mesmorized by his charm lol. I never said he was a horrible worker but to call him great is very foolish. I'm honestly perplexed that i'm the only one saying this. Where are the Madison Square Garden fans in here? Every time Cena goes to a smarky crowd or a city with rich wrestling history he gets booed out of the building. Yes, Cena is cinematic and yes he provides a great main event draw, and is a wonderful poster boy for the WWE but i'm sorry i cant call him a great worker. It's my opinion so deal with it. I never thought saying Cena was mediocre would be unpopular.


----------



## jpchicago23

HoMiCiDaL26 said:


> You think about WWE's roster, who's had the most classic matches in the last 5 years? That's right, Cena. I like him for that and for that only. I think for the most part, he's annoying, but in the ring, he's a treat to watch.
> 
> 
> Have you seen any of Jericho or HBK's matches? Not to mention CM Punk. All three are as good on the mic and way better in the ring.


----------



## jawbreaker

sterling said:


> I'd rather watch a throwaway 10-minute match on WWE Superstars between Chris Masters and Luke Gallows (pretty sure the date was 6/22, and both guys are stellar workers, and the match totally ruled) than the vast majority of shit on the indies.


I'm not denying WWE has good stuff and the indies have bad stuff. I'm just saying that I can't devote eight hours a week to watching Raw, SD, NXT, Superstars, and Impact, plus three more for PPVs, given all the absolute shit that those companies put on the air a lot of the time.


----------



## sterling

jawbreaker said:


> I'm not denying WWE has good stuff and the indies have bad stuff. I'm just saying that I can't devote eight hours a week to watching Raw, SD, NXT, Superstars, and Impact, plus three more for PPVs, given all the absolute shit that those companies put on the air a lot of the time.


I can agree with that, for sure. I guess I misunderstood your statement, which initially sounded dismissive toward the entire product. But yeah, there's definitely a crapton of fluff, and there's also a lack of "classics," but Superstars consistently puts good matches on TV from folks you wouldn't expect, and Smackdown usually has a good match or two. Basically, I dig short but good WWE TV matches more than indy main event stuff.


----------



## GOD OF CUNT

jpchicago23 said:


> Ok thats more like it. I just dont see how he's GREAT. I can see someone saying he's a good to decent worker because yes he does bust his ass and do everything thats told of him. But when you're talking about straight work rate and whats great and whats average he's just average. I personally am not one of the Cena haters but i dont love the guy either theres a place for people like him Batista, Warrior, Hogan etc. He's a good draw but not a great worker





jpchicago23 said:


> WOW McMahon has you guys drinking the Cena Kool-Aid i see. Either most of you are 15 and under or are just mesmorized by his charm lol. I never said he was a horrible worker but to call him great is very foolish. I'm honestly perplexed that i'm the only one saying this. Where are the Madison Square Garden fans in here? Every time Cena goes to a smarky crowd or a city with rich wrestling history he gets booed out of the building. Yes, Cena is cinematic and yes he provides a great main event draw, and is a wonderful poster boy for the WWE but i'm sorry i cant call him a great worker. It's my opinion so deal with it. I never thought saying Cena was mediocre would be unpopular.


This is all pretty much bullshit.

The whole "rich wrestling history" line is a crock. Cities that boo babyfaces aren't "smarter" than cities that cheer them. That's one of the more hilarious arguments against Cena I've read, and that covers a whole lot of stupidity. 

What's your definition of "workrate"? I really don't know how anyone can watch a Cena match and think he's a guy that doesn't have great "workrate". "Workrate" is a fucking stupid term anyway, but in this instance it seems like workrate and how many moves a guy does goes hand in hand for you. And the MOVES~ talking point is also nonsense.

At this point the amount of people blasting Cena for having "too few moves" is mind-numbing. How much "high end offence" did Ricky Steamboat have? Are people calling him "mediocre" because he has "limited offence".

Fuck no, because Ricky Steamboat is a great wrestler and John Cena is a great wrestler. 

"He doesn't have great workrate."

"He only has five moves."

"He gets booed in MSG."

All are carny ways of saying "I can't argue my point for shit."

Thinking Cena isn't a great wrestler isn't an unpopular opinion, because plenty of people think that. People wouldn't be calling you on it if you could actually give any decent reason as to *why* he's "mediocre". 

I really wish I tried to comment on this last night when I was hammered because I can't imagine that not ending spectacularly.


----------



## sterling

Andy3000 said:


> I really wish I tried to comment on this last night when I was hammered because I can't imagine that not ending spectacularly.


Drink. Now.


----------



## FITZ

Andy3000 said:


> This is all pretty much bullshit.
> 
> The whole "rich wrestling history" line is a crock. Cities that boo babyfaces aren't "smarter" than cities that cheer them. That's one of the more hilarious arguments against Cena I've read, and that covers a whole lot of stupidity.
> 
> What's your definition of "workrate"? I really don't know how anyone can watch a Cena match and think he's a guy that doesn't have great "workrate". "Workrate" is a fucking stupid term anyway, but in this instance it seems like workrate and how many moves a guy does goes hand in hand for you. And the MOVES~ talking point is also nonsense.
> 
> At this point the amount of people blasting Cena for having "too few moves" is mind-numbing. How much "high end offence" did Ricky Steamboat have? Are people calling him "mediocre" because he has "limited offence".
> 
> Fuck no, because Ricky Steamboat is a great wrestler and John Cena is a great wrestler.
> 
> "He doesn't have great workrate."
> 
> "He only has five moves."
> 
> "He gets booed in MSG."
> 
> All are carny ways of saying "I can't argue my point for shit."
> 
> Thinking Cena isn't a great wrestler isn't an unpopular opinion, because plenty of people think that. People wouldn't be calling you on it if you could actually give any decent reason as to *why* he's "mediocre".
> 
> I really wish I tried to comment on this last night when I was hammered because I can't imagine that not ending spectacularly.


Just because he gets booed in some cities doesn't mean he's a bad wrestler. I think Cena is great but I usually root against him when I see him live because I don't like his character at all. 

I can understand why someone would hate everything about John Cena except the matches he puts on. He has a scary amount of great matches with just about everyone. And everyone always cares about his matches. 

My question to jpchicago23, what does Cena need to do to be considered a great wrestler? Since clearly have a ton of great matches with every opponent that he goes against isn't enough.


----------



## Clique

HoMiCiDaL26 said:


> Way I see it is, Cena's matches are good, real good. Usually better than most of the rosters, therefore, Cena is good.
> 
> You think about WWE's roster, who's had the most classic matches in the last 5 years? That's right, Cena. I like him for that and for that only. I think for the most part, he's annoying, but in the ring, he's a treat to watch.


Undertaker and Shawn Michaels and not just the matches they've had together. Undertaker, imo, has had the MOTY for the last four years and this year will be five.

But I do agree Cena is good, not great though.


----------



## andy-500

The Clique said:


> Undertaker and Shawn Michaels and not just the matches they've had together. Undertaker, imo, has had the MOTY for the last four years and this year will be five.
> 
> But I do agree Cena is good, not great though.


I agree with this. You could argue that Shawn has had the best match at Wrestlemania every year since his return, other than perhaps at WM22 - and Undertaker continues to pull it out the bag for big matches too.


----------



## HoMiCiDaL26

The Clique said:


> Undertaker and Shawn Michaels and not just the matches they've had together. Undertaker, imo, has had the MOTY for the last four years and this year will be five.
> 
> But I do agree Cena is good, not great though.


Shawn Michaels is no longer on the roster anymore, hence why I used that example


----------



## jpchicago23

This has to be the funniest shit I've ever read. I never said Cena didnt bust his ass or isnt a great draw and he's very good for the business. I just think he lacks a little originality. I mean the whole superman gimmick isnt his fault i know that, the booking isnt his fault either this i know. But when i can almost always predict the end to a Cena match its rediculous. Trust me I've seen main eventers way worse than Cena and I know he makes a lot of money because of the kids but his wrestling is so vanilla to me. Thats my opinion, i dont care what everyone else thinks of him or if they get mad that i dont fall in love with his work. And yeah there are some matches that i can watch of his that arent dreadful but he's just not a favorite of mine, never has been. Its funny how everyone used to hate Cena and now all of a sudden he's this all time great. Now everyone hates Orton. And by the way this is an unpopular opinion thread so if my opinion doesnt exactly tickle your fancy maybe you should realize what unpopular means


----------



## Clique

> Shawn Michaels is no longer on the roster anymore, hence why I used that example


But Taker still counts.


----------



## GOD OF CUNT

jpchicago23 said:


> And by the way this is an unpopular opinion thread so if my opinion doesnt exactly tickle your fancy maybe you should realize what unpopular means


I thought the point of this thread was to actually *talk* about the unpopular opinions, though. 

"this is an unpopular opinion thread so if my opinion doesnt exactly tickle your fancy maybe you should realize what unpopular means"

Also seems like carny for "I can't argue my point for shit."


----------



## jpchicago23

Oh yeah and Andy3000 are you really comparing Cena to Steamboat? While Ricky may not have had the most complete offense in his arsenal the moves he hit were so crisp and fluent and where timed so well in the match. Cena half-asses a lot of his moves and Steamboat seemed to perfect every moved he used regularly. I will say Cena can brawl his ass off but when it comes down to developing a great match i just dont see it. I'll have to agree to disagree because I'm tired of talking about Cena
i

Carny??? You're kidding right? That's what you come up with? I have argued my point are you not reading? I dont like Cena, his character is decent and needed i understand but in the ring he doesnt appeal to me. His moves arent fluent, its the same shit no matter who he wrestles. He almost makes it look too fake to me. Just because you disagree with what i have to say about Cena doesnt mean you're right. Who says what you say is the end all be all and is what everyone should agree to? If i simply said i dont like Cena because his name is John then thats my reason, get over it.


----------



## Desecrated

Its hard to really talk about what Cena can really do in the ring, because we haven't seen many examples, if any, of him going all out as a technical marvel. Could he manage it? I am sure he can step up to the plate and do his job exceptionally well.

However, since he is the face of the WWE, they will use him in the main event, and the WWE main event formula is very rigid in style. Only broken by people who are more commonly upper midcarders, having a rare Championship match (Jericho/Michaels NM08, Angle/Benoit RR03).

Until the day Cena can take a step back from his routine main event matches, and go off against people who are more in the type of a technical, fast paced high-flyer etc, its hard to argue what he can really do.


Also, for unpopular opinions, Chris Hero > anyone on Indy scene, imo.


----------



## jpchicago23

WOW i agree with that 100%. Maybe it is just the style he wrestles that draws me away as i prefer a more technical based style. I'd like to see him step up and try it though, if he succeded i'd change my mind.


----------



## Horselover Fat

cenas a better technical wrestler than bret hart


----------



## sterling

"Technical wrestler" is an essentially meaningless term. 

As for the argument about Cena being sloppy/lazy: I really can't think of an example. Not sure if I like the Cena/Steamboat comparison, but if you're saying Steamboat's the master of execution and Cena isn't, then I guess I can roll into that argument. Sure, Steamboat threw beautiful armdrags, and it made sense for a martial artist to rely on armdrags, which looked basic but effective. At the same time, though, Cena relies on basic strikes, and I'd argue that he's a masterful puncher, and his clotheslines are even better. It makes sense for a big, muscular dude like Cena to rely on basic but effective-looking strikes, and it works. Take the heavily-pimped Raw 07 match with Michaels-- the hour-long match from London. I legit thought Cena's clotheslines were the best part of the match. He never did anything flashy/fancy, but his offense looked good throughout the whole match, and they worked at a good rate throughout. I didn't think the match dragged in the slightest, and I thought Cena was the better guy in the match, mainly because his offense was so well-executed. 

While we're on the subject of Cena/Michaels, I still think the Mania 23 match is a great example of how well Cena can sell. Some people rip on him for not selling the leg throughout, but I thought the way he shook it off fit how long the legwork lasted, and the way he sold while it lasted (awesome moment where he throws a punch from the corner and moves his leg to try to get the feeling back) was phenomenal.


----------



## GOD OF CUNT

jpchicago23 said:


> Oh yeah and Andy3000 are you really comparing Cena to Steamboat? While Ricky may not have had the most complete offense in his arsenal the moves he hit were so crisp and fluent and where timed so well in the match. Cena half-asses a lot of his moves and Steamboat seemed to perfect every moved he used regularly. I will say Cena can brawl his ass off but when it comes down to developing a great match i just dont see it. I'll have to agree to disagree because I'm tired of talking about Cena
> i


What's so strange about that comparison in terms of what both guys actually bring to the table? 

I think Steamboat's a top 10 all-time level guy (and no, I don't think Cena's an all-time top 10 level guy), but he and Cena have really similar strengths. 

They're both phenomenal sellers. I understand the whole "Cena doesn't have great offence" talking point. I don't think it holds any water (used to; not anymore), though I get that some people would rather see him using more moves or whatever. 

But when Cena's at his best he's selling and taking other guys' stuff. He's probably the most realistic seller and bumper on the scene. Steamboat's arguably the measuring stick for guys fighting from the bottom in the US, but Cena's so good in that role that it isn't at all crazy to compare the two.

You praise Steamboat for his timing, yet Cena's babyface timing is pretty much perfect.

You rag on Cena for having "half-assed" moves, yet look at Steamboat's "karate". It's awful looking half the time. 

I think saying he "half-asses" a lot of his moves is really overstating it as well, but whatever.

Basically, you're praising Steamboat for the same stuff Cena does well, and you're ragging on Cena for doing the same stuff Steamboat did. There's a double standard there that you don't seem to notice.

"when it comes down to developing a great match i just dont see it" -- I don't even understand what you mean here. 



jpchicago23 said:


> Carny??? You're kidding right? That's what you come up with? I have argued my point are you not reading? I dont like Cena, his character is decent and needed i understand but in the ring he doesnt appeal to me. His moves arent fluent, its the same shit no matter who he wrestles. He almost makes it look too fake to me. Just because you disagree with what i have to say about Cena doesnt mean you're right. Who says what you say is the end all be all and is what everyone should agree to? If i simply said i dont like Cena because his name is John then thats my reason, get over it.


Look, I get that you don't like Cena. That's all good. I've got no problem with people that don't like John Cena. I just think half of your argument against him being a great worker is either bullshit or has no bearing on what he's actually doing in the ring.

"It's the same shit no matter who he wrestles." Like this doesn't apply to every wrestler in the history of wrestling. EVERY wrestler has a moveset, stuff they always do in the ring, etc. Every one of them. I'll use a Randy Savage comparison this time - how many times have we seen Savage hit a double axe handle off the top rope? Or the top rope elbow drop? A million times, because it's a part of his moveset. How many times have we seen Steve Austin stomp a mudhole in someone in the corner? Or the Lou Thesz press? Or the Stunner? A million times, because it's a part of his fucking moveset. Again, there's a HUGE double standard here that you don't seem to notice.

Even if you're talking about him having a match forumla that he uses all the time, let's not pretend that doesn't apply to every wrestler in history as well. 

I'm not trying to pass of what I'm saying as something everybody should agree with. But this whole "it's an unpopular opinion thread, deal with it" stuff is crap. If someone calls you on something they think is bullshit and you play that card, chances are they're going to think it's carny for you not being able to argue your point for shit. 

The "Just because you disagree with what i have to say about Cena doesnt mean you're right. Who says what you say is the end all be all and is what everyone should agree to?" card is also retarded. Don't try and make me out to be someone that's trying to force my opinion of Cena down everybody's throat just because you're pissed someone called you on something they believed to be bullshit.


----------



## Hiplop

Carlito rocks and had he not been a loud mouth, would be a main eventer


----------



## FITZ

I feel like Andy just said everything that I was too lazy to type myself. Especially about the fact that you could make the same old shit argument for every wrestler. 

It happens all the time when I watch indy wrestling. I see this guy hit a move that I've never seen before and I think it's the greatest and most original move ever. Then I watch a few more matches and I realize that the guy does that awesome move in every match.


----------



## jpchicago23

Yet again i dont care what you think of my opinions. What you say doesnt alter my opinion and the fact that you are getting so dramatic makes me worry a tad. Get over it, I dont like Cena's work. There are some wrestlers that people just dont like. I'm sure not everyone likes the Harts or Dean Malenko and that's a few that i really love.


----------



## antoniomare007

Cena delivers when he has to, the atmosphere on 95% of his matches makes them seem a lot more special so that helps a lot (props to Cena on that one though, nowadays he's the only one who gets that kind of reaction for such a long period of time). I don't agree on his selling, he's very hit or miss imo, idk...i respect the guy and he normally has entertaining matches, but i'm not very interested in seeing the guy wrestle.

Now Orton...that's a whole other story, i don't know why but that guy puts me to sleep every time. I know why he wrestles the way he does, and get his character, but he's just boring to me. He's over as fuck though so i guess i just don't see what everyone sees in him.


----------



## jpchicago23

I think personally a lot of people fell in love with Orton because of his heel character. That's not to say he's as big of an anti-hero as Austin was but you saw Austin turn face because so many people cheered his heel character. I dont think Orton is really that boring in the ring but i do think there are times where he's not that stellar either. I also think people love the RKO so much and he can get over just by hitting it on someone


----------



## Yeah1993

WCW said:


> cenas a better technical wrestler than bret hart


Bit over the top there Jason don't you think?



sterling said:


> "Technical wrestler" is an essentially meaningless term.


I agree with that 100%. Watched Oven/Davey 3/3/97 not long ago, and I thought it was great, but a lot of the "technical" stuff they did in there was meaningless, whereas I've watched Andre/Hansen 23/9/81 four times this year, and there's like zero "techy" moves whatsoever, but it's the better match by a billion miles. Plus, you can get techy guys with a lot of moves, and they use those moves like shit, so "technical" is tainted to the point where anybody who knows how to do a roll-thorugh is a great mat wrestler.



antoniomare007 said:


> Cena delivers when he has to, the atmosphere on 95% of his matches makes them seem a lot more special so that helps a lot (props to Cena on that one though, nowadays he's the only one who gets that kind of reaction for such a long period of time). I don't agree on his selling, he's very hit or miss imo, idk...i respect the guy and he normally has entertaining matches, but i'm not very interested in seeing the guy wrestle.


I agree with that. I can love Cena match, but then i have to take a huge break before watching another one of his matches. When someone goes "Cena vs. ____ was ****1/2", I'm not gonna be in a rush to see it, like I would be with a Taker, Michaels, BOB BACKLUND match, etc.



antoniomare007 said:


> Now Orton...that's a whole other story, i don't know why but that guy puts me to sleep every time. I know ehy he wrestles the way he does, and get his character, but he's just boring to me. He's over as fuck though so i guess i just don't see that everyone sees in him.


I agree with this too, as far as 2007-current Orton goes. 2004-early 06 Orton is the shit, though.


----------



## jpchicago23

I agree in that not all technical based matches are better. There are spotfest matches like TLC 2 and straight up brawls like Cactus Jack v Vader Havoc 93 that i think were just as good as a lot of stuff put out in those years respectfully


----------



## TheBusiness

For me its not so much technical wrestlers, but people who can put on a good match when asked of them, for example Shawn michaels.

Look cena is not a good worker, I can forgive him for his gimmick, but his wrestling is unbearable, every match is the same, get beat up and hit 4 moves of doom.

And you people keep saying of his classics, go ahead and name me some of them from the last 3 years, because none stick out to me, so thats my opinion

And yeah, legend killer > viper


----------



## King Of The Game

TheBusiness said:


> Look cena is not a good worker, I can forgive him for his gimmick, but his wrestling is unbearable, every match is the same, get beat up and hit 4 moves of doom.


You do know that its same formula to near enough every match. Face sells as Heel gets heat, then Face makes comeback. Those 4 moves of doom as you said is Cena's comeback. 

Every face in the business has a comeback. Cena always gets this 4 or 5 moves of doom crap, when its his comeback every face does it. It must be that Cena has the best comeback in the business that people have to mention it alot and yes Cena is a great worker. 

His Wrestling is unbearble is it to you. Well i think otherwise, Cena has great psychology, storytelling and works a crowd like no other in his matches. Some of the things why he is a great worker, forget fancy spots or technical holds, Cena doesnt work like that and doesnt need to. How he works is fine as he near enough always delivers.


----------



## jpchicago23

TheBusiness said:


> For me its not so much technical wrestlers, but people who can put on a good match when asked of them, for example Shawn michaels.
> 
> Look cena is not a good worker, I can forgive him for his gimmick, but his wrestling is unbearable, every match is the same, get beat up and hit 4 moves of doom.
> 
> And you people keep saying of his classics, go ahead and name me some of them from the last 3 years, because none stick out to me, so thats my opinion
> 
> And yeah, legend killer > viper


Thank you!!! Finally someone agrees.


----------



## Notorious

TheBusiness said:


> For me its not so much technical wrestlers, but people who can put on a good match when asked of them, for example Shawn michaels.
> 
> Look cena is not a good worker, I can forgive him for his gimmick, but his wrestling is unbearable, every match is the same, get beat up and hit 4 moves of doom.
> 
> And you people keep saying of his classics, go ahead and name me some of them from the last 3 years, because none stick out to me, so thats my opinion
> 
> And yeah, legend killer > viper


I agree with this post. I'm not a Cena fan and I'm not a Cena hater but all of his memorable matches are either with Shawn Michaels or they're gimmick matches.


----------



## Connon

Indy wrestlers are indy wrestlers because they lack the required talent to make it big in the WWE.


----------



## Huganomics

Nothing on the indies is really that special, and the fans of Indy anything(Wrestling, Music, etc.) are agonizingly annoying.

Dolph Ziggler isn't bad at all, but he is heavily overrated. Same thing goes for both Shelton Benjamin and Charlie Haas. 

Triple H really isn't that bad of a guy.


----------



## Hiplop

TheBusiness said:


> For me its not so much technical wrestlers, but people who can put on a good match when asked of them, for example Shawn michaels.
> 
> Look cena is not a good worker, I can forgive him for his gimmick, but his wrestling is unbearable, every match is the same, get beat up and hit 4 moves of doom.
> 
> And you people keep saying of his classics, go ahead and name me some of them from the last 3 years, because none stick out to me, so thats my opinion
> 
> And yeah, legend killer > viper


Cena vs umaga
Cena vs HBK WM
Cena vs HBK Raw
Cena vs HHH
Cena vs jbl (he brought jbl to a great match)
Cena vs Batista WM
Cena vs jericho Armageddon
Cena vs edge unforgiven 2006


----------



## Horselover Fat

Yeah1993 said:


> Bit over the top there Jason don't you think?


Why, because I been in the lab with a pen and a pad trying to get this damn label off?


----------



## Yeah1993

Might've hit the nail on the head.


----------



## SHIRLEY

Connon said:


> Indy wrestlers are indy wrestlers because they lack the required talent to make it big in the WWE.


LOL cool trolling bro. Props.

Claudio > Wade Barrett and Sheamus combined. All he lacked was a visa. Just one example.

WWE's selection criteria aren't gospel. Certain wrestlers don't fit these criteria, for a multitude of possible reasons - other careers, family commitments, size, age, style, being a tag team, gender, previous injuries, sexuality, nationality, race - whatever it may be.


----------



## GOD OF CUNT

jpchicago23 said:


> Yet again i dont care what you think of my opinions. What you say doesnt alter my opinion and the fact that you are getting so dramatic makes me worry a tad. Get over it, I dont like Cena's work. There are some wrestlers that people just dont like. I'm sure not everyone likes the Harts or Dean Malenko and that's a few that i really love.


Kid, I've already said I'm not trying to change your, or anybody's, opinion. You keep saying you don't care what I think and that's cool; you don't like Cena and that's that. Fine. 

But I still think the majority of the "arguments" that are shooting down Cena as a worker in this thread are either bullshit or irrelevant to actually "working". 

"I don't care what you think/It's my opinion, get over it" is all well and good and you're totally entitled to like and dislike whoever you want, but spouting things like that mid-way through a discussion is a cop out that makes you come across as someone that can't argue your points for shit. If you're tired of talking about Cena then fine, I'm cool with that. Just don't start rifling off shit about how the person calling you on something they disagree with is getting too dramatic or can't deal with the fact not everybody sees things their way. It doesn't work like that. Point of this thread, as far as I'm aware, is to actually talk about the unpopular opinions. If everyone states their unpopular opinions and that's the end of it then it's all pointless. This has been a pretty great thread, and it's because people are/were willing to actually talk about shit.

This really isn't a big deal to me. Honestly, I don't think I've *ever* spoke this much about Cena and I'm getting fed up with it now myself since it's a dead end argument. He isn't really a favourite of mine either, which makes me wonder why I've gone to all this bother in the first place.


----------



## jpchicago23

I'm not a kid and dont come at me like you're some bad ass talking down. You dont know me internet tough guy, get off my dick and quit analyzing every little thing i say. Who cares if you think i'm backing up my argument, you think because you say something i'm gonna be like oh shit i better re-think what i'm saying. You're one of those people who thinks your views on how something like workrate, or a good match or a good wrestler is how it should be. You'll have to get use to the fact that everyone is their own expert at wrestling. If i were to say something so oblivious like Benoit was a horrible wrestler then thats my view that would mean i didnt like him. Now i do think he is an all time great but my point is just because you feel people should have to elaborate on their views doesnt make them wrong and doesnt mean they cant have those said opinions. You're not going to get everyone to see eye to eye with you so you should just let it go its not a good look.


----------



## GOD OF CUNT

:lmao

Awesome.


----------



## jpchicago23

Alright well consider it dropped. I agree with a lot of your views especially on older wrestling but on this topic i guess we'll have to agree to disagree.


----------



## Victarion

notorious_187 said:


> I agree with this post. I'm not a Cena fan and I'm not a Cena hater but all of his memorable matches are either with Shawn Michaels or they're gimmick matches.


hbk carred john cena? lol.

cena/lashley was fucking great btw, really underrated match that I loved the fuck out of.


----------



## Connon

Shirley Crabtree said:


> LOL cool trolling bro. Props.
> 
> Claudio > Wade Barrett and Sheamus combined. All he lacked was a visa. Just one example.
> 
> WWE's selection criteria aren't gospel. Certain wrestlers don't fit these criteria, for a multitude of possible reasons - other careers, family commitments, size, age, style, being a tag team, gender, previous injuries, sexuality, nationality, race - whatever it may be.


I get what you're saying and I dig the Kings of Wrestling but I'm talking about the majority here. For every Claudio Castagnoli there's at least a hundred guys out there working without any talent or skill.


----------



## SHIRLEY

Connon said:


> I get what you're saying and I dig the Kings of Wrestling but I'm talking about the majority here. For every Claudio Castagnoli there's at least a hundred guys out there working without any talent or skill.


There are a lot of shitarses on the indies. There have been quite a few in WWE too. Khali and Otunga being two current ones.


----------



## FITZ

It might be different today but the indies was where just about everyone started. There might be guys wrestling that don't have the talent now to be in WWE but they will soon enough. And the biggest problem that I see with a lot of the guys on the indies is size. I know it won't hold the really good ones back but you aren't going to see the WWE where half of the guys in the main event scene are under 6 feet tall and weight less than 200 pounds. 

Hell, if WWE wanted to start a CW division they could just go an indy wrestler raid and the division would be fantastic.


----------



## Bubz

Davey Richards rules! This seems to be unpopular these last few months, why has every one just started hating the guy? I mean he's been having the best match on almost every indie card he's been on for almost 2 years. I know some people have issues with his selling but jesus its not enough for people to all of a sudden start hating him. He's probably my favorite wrestler on the Indies, up there with Hero IMO.


----------



## antoniomare007

no one hates him it's just no everyone agrees on the "best in the world" hype.


----------



## Codeinum

1. WWECW and original ECW sucks.
2. Eddie Kingston is one of the best mic workers today.
3. CM Punk sucks.
4. Daniels sucks.
5. Danielson is boring as fuck.
6. Ric Flair is one of the most overrated wrestlers ever.
7. PWG >>>> ROH.
8. WCW 1996-1999 >>>> WWF/WWE 1997 - Present day.
9. Amazing Red >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> any x-division star TNA ever had.


----------



## Total-KO

1. ROH dropped the ball with Colt Cabana and he should've beat Homicide for the ROH World Title, not Morishima.
2. PWG IS better than ROH.
3. The Miz sucks. And his promos suck. They're so dull.
4. I don't like ANY of the WWE's newly pushed talent. Not Sheamus. Not Jack Swagger (he needs to have a more deeper gimmick to convince me).
5. ROH has too many tag teams and not enough decent singles wrestlers.
6. Puroresu is alright. Some people come over puro too much.
7. Kevin Steen, Chris Hero, Colt Cabana and Austin Aries are the 4 best overall workers in ROH right now.
8. The Attitude Era was awful. 2001-2004 WWF was 10 times better than the attitude era.

I could say loads of shit about TNA, but it's all popular wrestling opinions about how crap it is.


----------



## jawbreaker

I'm not entirely sure PWG > ROH is an unpopular opinion any more, at least not among people who regularly watch both companies.


----------



## erikstans07

Can I make a request for *Codeinum* to explain a few of his opinions? Especially the ones about Punk, Daniels, Flair and Red? The only one I agree with is that Eddie Kingston is one of the best talkers in the business.


----------



## erikstans07

Sorry for the double post, but I'm on my phone and for some reason editing my post doesn't work. I'd also like an explanation of how "Danielson is boring as fuck". You must not have ever seen ANY of his work, ever to have that opinion. He brings this aura to the ring that just negates any boredom. It really bothers me that there are still Danielson haters out there. He's one of the best personalities.in the business and is, IMO, still the best wrestler in the world.


----------



## jpchicago23

Agreed to the fullest. Danielson can match skills with anyone in the business today and can carry just about anyone to a near 4 star quality match. How someone can say he is boring is beyond me. He combines a little of everything in his arsenal so whats not to like?


----------



## GOD OF CUNT

Might as well drop a few that I don't think anybody's said yet:

For every good Bruiser Brody and Dynamite Kid performance, there are 5 that are somewhere between bad and outright terrible. I don't like tossing "overrated", but in terms of disparity between their rep and how good they actually were, those two guys pretty much suck. And I say this as someone that used to be a big Brody fan and at one point would've called Billington one of the best wrestlers of the 80s. 

Bret Hart was never the best wrestler in the United States, never mind the world. 

Butch Reed is a better wrestler than Triple H.

Shawn Michaels is a better tag wrestler than singles wrestler.

It never would've made any sense for Curt Hennig to get any kind of run as a World Champion after he left the AWA.

Larry Zbyszko has better karate than Ricky Steamboat (this coming from someone that rides Steamboat's dick to the point of nausea).


----------



## Total-KO

Andy3000 said:


> Bret Hart was never the best wrestler in the United States, never mind the world.
> 
> Shawn Michaels is a better tag wrestler than singles wrestler.


Not sure if serious.


----------



## jpchicago23

Are you saying Shawn was just that good of a tag wrestler or overrated as a singles competitor?


----------



## bloodletting

UFC 116 & 117 has done irreparable damage to pro-wrestling in the US. Even with the advantage of being able to script their matches, there has not been a pro-wrestling main event as good or as dramatic as either of the past two UFC cards.

Tyler Black and Jon Moxley are too talented to stay in the indies


----------



## GOD OF CUNT

Total-KO said:


> Not sure if serious.


Entirely serious.



jpchicago23 said:


> Are you saying Shawn was just that good of a tag wrestler or overrated as a singles competitor?


I'd say he's one of the top 5 US tag wrestlers ever. Maybe top 3.

I don't like Michaels' singles stuff in general nearly as much as I used to, but there's still plenty I really like-love. 

eg. versus Foley from Mind Games is still probably my favourite match.


----------



## just1988

TNA Hardcore Justice was a good show.


----------



## Emperor DC

jawbreaker said:


> I'm not entirely sure PWG > ROH is an unpopular opinion any more, at least not among people who regularly watch both companies.


It is for me.

ROH > PWG by a margin at the moment.

PWG was great around the time when Dragon/Nigel left and ROH went into the shitter, but as of late, Ring of Honor has been very, very good with consistently awesome/amazing shows.


----------



## KingCrash

just1988 said:


> TNA Hardcore Justice was a good show.


Don't know how unpopular that is. I think the consensus is it was good for what it was, but wrestling wise you wouldn't recommend it to anyone.


----------



## sterling

I'm still really high on Shawn's singles work, but I'd probably agree with Andy's claim on him being a better tag worker. Need to see more Rockers, but, like Andy said, there aren't many guys I'd put ahead of him as tag workers. As much as I love Shawn as a singles worker, I still can't say he was as good as a guy like Eddie Guerrero. I mean, sure if I were making a list of best matches ever, I'd probably have more Shawn toward the top of my list than Eddie, but I'd still say Eddie was better. Not sure if that makes sense, but Shawn has glaring flaws (selling issues, poor strikes), whereas Eddie's mostly perfect.

But in tags, the selling issues go away and he can showcase his fantastic short-term selling, and since he spent so much time bumping like a madman (I'd be willing to put him among the best madmen-bumpers ever, too), his offense didn't matter much.

Andy: who was better than Bret in 93 & 94? Was he at least the best guy in the WWF those years? Just wondering. I'm expecting you'll list a guy like Dustin Rhodes, and then I'll feel bad about myself for not having seen more Dustin, and then I'll want to go buy comps from Cal, and then I'll realize that I need to save money for now and I'll probably have to wait until next year or some shit, and then I'll cry and cry. Fuck you for making me cry, Andy. 

I didn't fall in love with Butch Reed in that Reed/Murdoch match, btw. Not saying I'd disagree with the argument that he's better than Hunter (haven't seen enough to figure out where I'd stand there.) I guess I'll get back to you on that in a a year or so, after I've found the money/time to buy/watch the Mid-South set.


----------



## Geeee

-Guys who wrestle an over-the-top, less serious style (The Rock, HBK, Angle) are better in the ring than serious workers (HHH, Austin, Benoit)
-Sheamus deserves the WWE title and is the only newly introduced talent that interests me.
-At no point was WCW better than WWF/WWE
-Chris Jericho has experienced exactly the amount of success he deserved in wrestling. No more/no less.


----------



## Total-KO

Geeee said:


> -Chris Jericho has experienced exactly the amount of success he deserved in wrestling. No more/no less.


Pretty much agree.


----------



## Yeah1993

sterling said:


> I'm still really high on Shawn's singles work, but I'd probably agree with Andy's claim on him being a better tag worker. Need to see more Rockers, but, like Andy said, there aren't many guys I'd put ahead of him as tag workers. As much as I love Shawn as a singles worker, I still can't say he was as good as a guy like Eddie Guerrero. I mean, sure if I were making a list of best matches ever, I'd probably have more Shawn toward the top of my list than Eddie, but I'd still say Eddie was better. Not sure if that makes sense, but Shawn has glaring flaws (selling issues, poor strikes), whereas Eddie's mostly perfect.


Agreed. Shawn's my favourite ever behind Taker, but I'd still put at least 15 guys ahead of him. He probably has more ****1/2+ matches than some of the guys I'd list, but yeah. 



sterling said:


> But in tags, the selling issues go away and he can showcase his fantastic short-term selling, and since he spent so much time bumping like a madman (I'd be willing to put him among the best madmen-bumpers ever, too), his offense didn't matter much.


He's about as close to Rikcy Morton as far as being a babyface apron-guy goes too.



sterling said:


> Andy: who was better than Bret in 93 & 94? Was he at least the best guy in the WWF those years? Just wondering. I'm expecting you'll list a guy like Dustin Rhodes, and then I'll feel bad about myself for not having seen more Dustin, and then I'll want to go buy comps from Cal, and then I'll realize that I need to save money for now and I'll probably have to wait until next year or some shit, and then I'll cry and cry. Fuck you for making me cry, Andy.


Goodhelmet's making a Dustin set that I want NOW. Got my Memphis and Allaince sets yesterday though, so I'm pretty good for now. 



sterling said:


> I didn't fall in love with Butch Reed in that Reed/Murdoch match, btw. Not saying I'd disagree with the argument that he's better than Hunter (haven't seen enough to figure out where I'd stand there.) I guess I'll get back to you on that in a a year or so, after I've found the money/time to buy/watch the Mid-South set.


Reed/Murdoch was probably an odd start to watching Reed. I'd say look at him in some tags, everyone's good in the match, but Reed sticks out as the best guy in there who's making everything particularly entertaining. Reed/Ladd vs. MASTER GEE/Brickhouse Brown is probably the best example. There's the Reed/Neidhart vs. Magnum/Mr. Wrestling II Cage, which is the better match, but Neidhart and Magnum are just as good as Reed in it (or better), so it looks like more of a "Magnum showcase"/"this is how good Neidhart could really be".

Speaking of Magnum & unpopular opinions.......he's a one of the best workers I've ever seen (around top 60 at least).

.....



MASTER GEE


----------



## RVDs no. 1 fan

I dont post regularly here but I'll give it a shot:


-RVD should retire
-Lita was much better than Trish
-Kane has never been entertaining
-HHH is good for wrestling
-The Rock is NOT one of the top 20 wrestlers of all time, and wrestling wise he is overrated
-So is Austin
-Both TNA and WWE are entertaining
-I dont know why Christian is so "great"
-At this moment Cena>>AJ Styles
-Taz was a better technical wrestler than Kurt Angle
-Anderson/Kenndy sucks
-The Pope will be more entertaining than The Rock
-ziggler looks like billy gunn
-Samoa Joe just became too fat to watch
-Since his return Jericho has been boring
-I like Morrison's gimmick
-Rey Mysterio should have stopped wrestling when Eddie died
-Santino should had broken the IC title reign record
-Joey Styles (ECW)>>>>>>>>>>> Lawler 
-The Miz should be a curtain jerker not a US champ
- I didnt care when HBK "retired"


----------



## antoniomare007

91'-97' Kobashi >>>> 98'-05' Kobashi


----------



## kamatose

1. Shawn Michaels is completely and utterly over rated. 
2. Ric Flair is still more entertaining than 99.9% of WWE's roster.
3. WWE writing and booking has no idea what they're doing. 
4. TNA has better television.
5. Jericho & Punk are the best wrestlers in WWE
6. NXT & Nexus are a joke
7. WWE will be out of business in 10 years.


----------



## kamatose

sterling said:


> I'm still really high on Shawn's singles work, but I'd probably agree with Andy's claim on him being a better tag worker. Need to see more Rockers, but, like Andy said, there aren't many guys I'd put ahead of him as tag workers. As much as I love Shawn as a singles worker, I still can't say he was as good as a guy like Eddie Guerrero. I mean, sure if I were making a list of best matches ever, I'd probably have more Shawn toward the top of my list than Eddie, but I'd still say Eddie was better. Not sure if that makes sense, but Shawn has glaring flaws (selling issues, poor strikes), whereas Eddie's mostly perfect.


I was never big on Michael's personally. I think he was a good wrestler, but never considered him _great_. A lot of people say he revolutionized the business which I don't get. Some people say his high flying, but it was a blatant rip off of Ricky Morton (as well as the Rockers were of the rock'n'roll express). I do think he had a great career prior to coming back from back injury. I was glad to see him back, I just don't get the high pedistal everyone from fans to wwe put him on. 


As far as tag teams go, the Rocker's were decent. They were more of an underdog tag team in my opinion. As for where they'd rank in a long list of great tag teams, I'd say they wouldn't be in the top 5 at all, possibly and probably not even in the top 10 when you consider the pairings of Minnesota Wrecking Crew, Arn & Tully, Road Warriors, Midnight Express variations, Rock'n'Roll express, Windham & Rotudna, British Bulldogs, Steiners, Hart Foundation, Blackjacks and more.


----------



## Zombiekid29

Yokozuna was the greatest monster heel champion of all time.


----------



## Emperor Palpatine

If TNA signed SID, I would watch Impact again.

Undertaker/HBK HIAC is underrated. That's right, if I don't see everyone listing it as THE greatest match of all time, then its underrated imo . (I'm half and half with this in terms of joking and being serious :side

As awesome as Dustin Rhodes is/was, he would have gotten nowhere in the business without the Goldust character after say, 1994/1995.

Raven is probably as overrated as The Rock when it comes to promos. Like The Rock, he has the skill to give good promos, but I rarely enjoy anything he actually says.


----------



## seancarleton77

Jack Swagger needs to continue to be a bad ass heel, but he actually needs to win, and he should NEVER SPEAK AGAIN because it ruins his ruthless cutthroat bad ass character and makes him look like a Muppet. Bring in Larry Sweeney or bring back Estrada to speak for him.


----------



## Bubz

TNA is still completely shit with the exception of the Guns/Beer Money fued (Which is GREAT)

Speaking of the Guns, heres one

They are the best tag team in the world, better than KOW and the Wolves IMO


----------



## seancarleton77

The thing is KOW and the Wolves have way stronger competition than MCMG, what will the Guns do after Beer Money?


----------



## Punk_4_Life

WWEECW was great...


----------



## jpchicago23

KingCal said:


> If TNA signed SID, I would watch Impact again.
> 
> Undertaker/HBK HIAC is underrated. That's right, if I don't see everyone listing it as THE greatest match of all time, then its underrated imo . (I'm half and half with this in terms of joking and being serious :side
> 
> As awesome as Dustin Rhodes is/was, he would have gotten nowhere in the business without the Goldust character after say, 1994/1995.
> 
> Raven is probably as overrated as The Rock when it comes to promos. Like The Rock, he has the skill to give good promos, but I rarely enjoy anything he actually says.


If Sid came back not only would i mark the fuck out but i'd be watching TNA a lot more than i do. 

I would also agree that the Shawn/Taker HIAC is underrated. It had spots that were timed so well in accordance to the match and the debut of Kane just puts it over the top. I think Shawn and Taker are a perfect match for each other and always produce a quality match.


----------



## GOD OF CUNT

sterling said:


> Andy: who was better than Bret in 93 & 94? Was he at least the best guy in the WWF those years? Just wondering. I'm expecting you'll list a guy like Dustin Rhodes, and then I'll feel bad about myself for not having seen more Dustin, and then I'll want to go buy comps from Cal, and then I'll realize that I need to save money for now and I'll probably have to wait until next year or some shit, and then I'll cry and cry. Fuck you for making me cry, Andy.


I wouldn't spend much time arguing against Bret as being the best in the States in '93 or '94. I don't think he was, but it's not like I think that's a crazy out there notion or anything. 

Anything before that seems like a huuuuge stretch. Pre-'85/WWF Bret footage is slim, although I can't imagine anyone arguing him as being the best in the States any of those years, anyway. From '85-'90 there's just no way. '85-'88 he wasn't even the best in his own company. In '89 it's probably a pick 'em between Rude, Arn, Tully, Shawn, Bret and Marty in the WWF, but then you look at WCW and... yeah, there's no way. He's got a good case in '90 for being the best in the WWF (though I prefer Shawn as a guy that was wrestling exclusively in tags that year), but then look at WCW and he shoots way down the pack. By the end of '91 he was split from Jim and a full time singles wrestler, and there isn't anybody else in the company that stands out as being that much, if at all, better than him... but Windham and Pillman in WCW definitely were. Come '92 I'd say he was the best in the WWF - and if he wasn't then he's not far off at all - but WCW was totally ridiculous that year and I'm honestly not sure I'd put Bret ahead of any of the top 10 guys in WCW.

After that he's pretty much "in his prime" and it becomes a lot closer. 

In '93 I'd definitely take Vader, and if Windham was around for the whole year I imagine I'd take him, too (but he wasn't so it's irrelevant, really). Regal and Steamboat are close, and I forgot how good Foley was that year, but Bret had a pretty killer '93. Best in the WWF for sure.

'94 might be Bret's best year, with the Owen feud and the RAW match verus Waltman standing out. This time last year I probably would've went with Bret, but the Dustin/Stud Stable feud puts Rhodes over the top for me now. Dustin, Vader and Bret would make up my top 3, probably. There's actually a lot of Michaels' stuff that year that I really like too (ladder match and August RAW match vs. Ramon; cliq tag from the Action Zone), but I'd say Bret was the best in the WWF that year.

'97 is another year where I'm sure a big chunk of people would call him the best in the US. He's got the Austin series (Wrestlemania, IYH Revenge of the Taker, Canadian Stampede) and the Undertaker matches, even though I don't really like the Summerslam match anymore. Not sure I'd put him above Austin in terms of the best in his own company, though. Austin obviously has the matches with Bret, so that's a wash, but he's got the singles match against Michaels from KoR and the awesome RAW tag with Michaels v Owen and Davey Boy. Michaels and Undertaker had a good year as well. Even if I did go with Bret there's no way I'd put him ahead of Eddie, who I think was legit the best in the world in '97, when you look outside the WWF. Been too long since I've seen most of the non-Eddie WCW from that year, but I can't imagine Benoit being too far off, either. 

Actually, the more I think about this the more I'd lean towards '95 as the year Bret's closest to being the best in the US ('93, '94 and '97 were all really good years for Bret, but even if I had him #2 for each year, the gap between him and my #1 (Vader, Dustin and Eddie) is pretty big). '95 was a pretty woeful year in general for US wrestling. Bret's really one of only two guys that stands out as having a good year in such a crappy WWF. The other guy is Michaels. He has the rumble match (which I wouldn't argue as being good, but Michaels' performance was about the only thing going for it other than Dick Murdoch headbutting a Samoan); a match with Bulldog on RAW that holds up shockingly well; a match on Superstars after he's just turned face against Tom Pritchard that I recall liking quite a bit; the match against Jarrett from IYH that's AWESOME; another Superstars match against Jimmy Del Ray that I liked even more than the Pritchard match; the Summerslam ladder match with Ramon; and there's a few Shawn/Diesel tags against some variations of Cornette's boys that are at the very worst "fun". Bret has the Diesel matches (I think the Survivor Series match is trash but the Rumble match is terrific); a couple good matches against Hakushi that are two of about 7 good Hakushi matches ever; an IYH match against Lafitte which was great; a match on RAW against Owen which was a kind of blowoff to their feud; and the Davey Boy match from December which is probably the best match to happen in the US that year. WCW wasn't any better than the WWF in '95, but I liked Vader and Arn a lot that year. Hell, I'd probably call Arn WCW's WOTY. Eddie, Malenko and Benoit came in towards the end after a cup of coffee in ECW. I don't really like any of the much-pimped Eddie/Dean matches and I think Bret/Davey is comfortably better, but Eddie and Benoit were both really fucking good that year despite having much less chance to do anything worth noting once they got to WCW. Toss up between Bret, Eddie and Benoit... probably Bret, though. 

Wound up changing my own mind. I'll take back my original point about Bret never being the best wrestler in the US and change it to "1995 was the only time Bret Hart was the best wrestler in the US." 



kamatose said:


> As far as tag teams go, the Rocker's were decent. They were more of an underdog tag team in my opinion. As for where they'd rank in a long list of great tag teams, I'd say they wouldn't be in the top 5 at all, possibly and probably not even in the top 10 when you consider the pairings of Minnesota Wrecking Crew, Arn & Tully, Road Warriors, Midnight Express variations, Rock'n'Roll express, Windham & Rotudna, British Bulldogs, Steiners, Hart Foundation, Blackjacks and more.


Is the Rockers being an underdog tag team a criticism? Because I can't really understand that.

I'd pretty easily take the Rockers over most of the teams you listed there. 

I like the Hart Foundation, but I definitely wouldn't take them over the Rockers. The Bulldogs weren't very good. Windham and Rotunda were decent enough, but I don't see how they were better than the Rockers. Luger was better with Barry than Rotunda was and the Luger/Windham team only lasted about a month and a half. Steiners weren't as good as the Rockers at working a "traditional" southern tag style. Steiners tossing guys around is plenty of fun, but I'd rather watch 10 Rockers matches way before I watched 10 Steiners matches. 

Minnesota Wrecking Crew, Road Warriors and the Blackjacks are all weird choices to me because I've seen nothing from any of those teams that's as good as, say, the fifth best Rockers match. Ole was far better with Arn. Road Warriors were actively garbage much of the time. What Blackjacks matches would you recommend?

RnRs, Midnight Express and Arn & Tully I'll agree with.

Not trying to argue that the Rockers were the best team in US history or anything, but they're better than a team like the Bulldogs by a country mile.

-----

This went way too far into tl;dr territory.


----------



## SHIRLEY

seancarleton77 said:


> The thing is KOW and the Wolves have way stronger competition than MCMG, what will the Guns do after Beer Money?


Wrestle two singles wrestlers that need a quick title run to spark a feud between them. Then wrestle Beer Money again. 

That's been going on since what? 2007?


----------



## jpchicago23

Hey Andy alas we agree on something. I think Vader owner 93 easily his feud with Cactus was just brutal. I think Bret owned 94 and 95 though, def. 95 but you could toss a few others in 94 i guess, especially Owen. As far as the Rockers go i liked them but they werent exactly my favorites I might venture to say they'd be in my top 5 from that era but being from Chicago i mark for the Roadies even though i know they're not exactly the best team. I really liked the Steiners though i thought them tossing people around was pretty entertaining I also thought the SST was a pretty cool team in those days too so take that as it is i guess not exactly the "best" teams but i thought they entertained pretty well.


----------



## GOD OF CUNT

SST were fuckin' awesome. 

I'd rather watch them kill the fuck out of job guys than most current wrestling.


----------



## LariatSavage

Zombiekid29 said:


> Yokozuna was the greatest monster heel champion of all time.


I think I'm going to have to agree with this. Vader never getting the WWF title holds him back as the greatest, and Yoko was killing everything in his path.


----------



## jpchicago23

Yea the SST were just vicious as hell. They made it look like they were legit destroying guys. I wish the Uso's would develop that type of a mean streak, theyd probably have to gain some lbs. first though


----------



## Yeah1993

The Road Warriors were pretty average. Them being better than Shawn & Marty is something I can't get at all.

and, Vader's the best heel worker ever, and Ricky Morton's the best babyface worker ever (imo).


----------

