# The 2011 MOTYC Thread



## seabs

*2010 MOTYC Thread

Starz~!*


----------



## KingKicks

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that Devitt/Ibushi is going to be the first ****+ for alot of people.


----------



## dj161

Well I'm going to start with The Miz vs John Morrison - Falls Count Aywhere for the WWE Championship - Raw - Jan 3rd 2011 - ***3/4

great way to start off the year, very early doors I know, but could end up being WWE's TV MOTY


----------



## Chismo

The Miz vs Clown ***1/2

Great TV match.


----------



## FITZ

The Miz should enjoy the time that he sits on top of my MOTY list... ***1/2-***3/4 for his match last night. At least the bar has been set.


----------



## jawbreaker

Is WWE finally doing the Miz/Morrison feud that I've been waiting for since they split after I stop following the company completely?


----------



## antoniomare007

not really.


----------



## KingKicks

^ It looked that way but now it may be over already.


----------



## ddog121

Miz v. Morrison **** super fun match, great way to kick off the year.

Also, the cage match last night was really good.


----------



## SuperDuperSonic

Benjo™ said:


> ^ It looked that way but now it may be over already.


Good. ME WANT ORTON VS. MORRISON WITH ALL THEIR GREAT ACTING CHEMISTRY FOR WM.


----------



## Rickey

Miz/Morrison from Jan.3 Raw is worth a watch. Miz's best title defense, Morrison might be getting pushed to the side in the near future though. Which is sad because Orton/Miz at the Rumbe most likely won't be as good.


----------



## New Blood

Miz/Morrison was a great match. Maybe a bit too spot happy in the beginning but some good stuff after the first commercial break.

Nothing too exciting form the lucha world yet.

I think I'm going to be a bit more picky about what I watch this year. I'm not going to strain myself into watching everything but I will watch more than what I did last year.


----------



## Saint Dick

The Miz vs. John Morrison - Raw 1/3/11
So yeah, I thought this rocked. It's right up there with Miz/Danielson as Miz's best match imo and although I can see a lot of people pointing to Morrison as the star of the match (and he was great), Miz more than held his own. He was especially good at telling a story with his expressions selling fear, desperation and false bravado at different points. Some of the nearfalls down the stretch were great, the action never let up, the crowd helped make it feel like a big deal and Michael Cole put it over the top ("WAY TO GO MIZ!" after he kicked out of Starship Pain was awesome). Great start to 2011.


----------



## samsam1704

Ownage™ said:


> The Miz vs. John Morrison - Raw 1/3/11
> So yeah, I thought this rocked. It's right up there with Miz/Danielson as Miz's best match imo and although I can see a lot of people pointing to Morrison as the star of the match (and he was great), Miz more than held his own. He was especially good at telling a story with his expressions selling fear, desperation and false bravado at different points. Some of the nearfalls down the stretch were great, the action never let up, the crowd helped make it feel like a big deal and Michael Cole put it over the top ("WAY TO GO MIZ!" after he kicked out of Starship Pain was awesome). Great start to 2011.


This is exactly what i was thinking.


----------



## Saint Dick

Big Show vs. Cody Rhodes vs. Drew McIntyre vs. Dolph Ziggler - SmackDown 1/7/11
It's not a legit MOTYC by any means, hell it isn't even the best WWE TV match this week (that goes to Miz/Morrison), but if you have 15 minutes to kill I'd recommend watching this. It's basically Big Show dominating kids who know they can't beat him so they have to work together to take him out of the equation. Rhodes, McIntyre and Ziggler do a good job making him look like a beast and the spots that did keep Show down for a while were pretty cool. The finish is great too.


----------



## Swag

Personally, I thought the 2of 3 falls match was better than the fatal fourway


----------



## KingKicks

Ownage™ said:


> Big Show vs. Cody Rhodes vs. Drew McIntyre vs. Dolph Ziggler - SmackDown 1/7/11
> It's not a legit MOTYC by any means, hell it isn't even the best WWE TV match this week (that goes to Miz/Morrison), but if you have 15 minutes to kill I'd recommend watching this. It's basically Big Show dominating kids who know they can't beat him so they have to work together to take him out of the equation. Rhodes, McIntyre and Ziggler do a good job making him look like a beast and the spots that did keep Show down for a while were pretty cool. The finish is great too.


This sounds like great fun. Looking forward to it.


----------



## seabs

*The 4 way was not only better than Miz/Morrison but better than any other TV match from 2010 imo. Wrote this about it.*

*Dolph Ziggler vs Big Show vs Drew McIntyre vs Cody Rhodes - Smackdown 07.01.2011*
_Woah nelly this was brilliant. Absolutely loved Show's performance in the MITB match and this isn't far behind it. viva said a while ago around the time of the MITB match that Big Show vs the world may be the best formula around atm and it comes up again here and again it's brilliant. It's a shame that they cant make a less established monster like Zeke perhaps look as dominant as Show does in this. Start of the match with Show just literally dominating everyone was really fun, loved Drew not being able to get in the ring and him getting more and more pissed off and being kept on the outside. All 3 heel's selling was spot on too which just added further into making Show look like a genuine monster and not a big guy who's easily beaten. The transition spot that took Show out of the picture was awesome. Show's so dominant that the only way he's losing this is if he makes a mistake which he does and then all 3 heels join together to try and take him out for good. Looked really cool too. What looked even better though was the 2nd spot to keep Show down on the outside where Drew launched Cody off the top rope into him. Came out of nowhere and looked great. The transition between Show going from fun giant beating the bad guys up to pissed off monster with a chip on his shoulder was beautiful. Then you get the random interference segment from Barrett which didn't end up as bad as I thought it would. Barrett vs Taker seems a lock for Mania now that he's seemingly on SD now after being booted out of Nexus. I guess Show is just a filler feud until Taker comes back and deals with Kane before Mania. Saw a lot of people on WF complain about Show kicking out of all 3 finishers after Barrett's attack and normally if any old guy did it I would be too but this is a fucking giant. If anyone should be allowed to kick out of all this it should be this guy. All 3 of them were awesome near falls too and totally believable after the run in. Ending was perfect too with Dolph realising after all Show had took there was no way he'd be able to beat so he suckered Cody into his own finisher which was enough to finish him off because you see Cody is a tiny fragment of the sixe of Big Show so it's going to take much less to keep him down! 

Really glad that Ziggler won, presuming that he'll get the shot on PPV but I assumed that with Morrison so who knows. Ziggler and Edge had a great TV match last year so this should be really good at minimum. Ziggler's for me the heel equivalent of Danielson at this point where you can put him in there with virtually anyone and he can have a watchable match with them. Seems as though the Danielson match was a real breakthrough for Ziggler too because he's been pushed really well and more importantly, really consistently since that match. Was obvious as fuck when Ziggler was entered into the match that he'd be winning because the only other viable option was the face and that wasn't likely to happen. Really enjoyed how the previous segment transitioned perfectly into the next one. Vickie abusing her power was great too, in both segments. Even more convinced now that Ziggler will win MITB and a world title from it this year. ***1/2 at least._


----------



## Bubz

Miz vs Morrison from RAW and the fatal four way on smackdown where both great especialy Miz/Morrison.

Ziggler is getting pushed and i really like it, i agree that Danielson has basicaly made Ziggler because without that match he might not be being pushed as hard, i guess people saw what he was actually capable of because i think almost every match since he has looked great in.


----------



## Speedy McGee

Raw

Falls Count Anywhere
The Miz vs. John Morrison- ***3/4
Fucking loved this match!! A lot of creative spots and really great near falls. Without a doubt The Miz's best match (with his match with Daniel Bryan being a close second) and a great tv match that everybody should check out.

Cage Match
Randy Orton vs. Sheamus vs. Wade Barrett- ***

Smackdown

Last Man Standing Match
Edge vs. Kane- ***1/4
Like a lot of people I did not like the first half of the match which was pretty much both men slowly brawling through the crowd. The second half picked up and had some really close counts, and great enough spots to keep my attention. The Last Man Standing stipulation helped disguise Kane's limited abilities and this was a good way to start the show.

Big Show vs. Cody Rhodes vs. Dolph Ziggler vs. Drew McIntyre- ***
Wow, I really did not expect this match to be as fun as it was. I liked how everybody teamed up on Big Show in the beginning. A really fun four way match which picks up a bit at the end.

Two Out of Three Falls
Alberto Del Rio vs. Rey Mysterio- **3/4
I hate Iron Man and 2 out of 3 falls matches, because half of the time companies fail to really stick with the stipulation and they usually make the falls wayy to close together. This match really never clicked, and it definitely did not feel like a feud ender. Now hopefully Alberto Del Rio can move to bigger things and Mysterio can feud with someone else.


----------



## Rickey

MCMG/BM, TNA Genesis is worth a watch like all there matches. Not as good as the Victory Road 2010 or Whole F'N Show match but still MOTN. I have no doubt in my mind that AJ/Williams would have been right up there if AJ wasn't injured hope he's not injured for long.


----------



## 2010fighting

Good start to the year for WWE on tv especially smackdown which had 3 good matches. Last nights ppv as a whole was awful but there were 2 matches that delivered.


WWE Raw 03/01/2011

The Miz vs John Morrison (Falls Count Anywhere) - ***

WWE Smackdown 07/01/2011

Edge vs Kane (Last Man standing) ***1/4
Rey Mysterio vs Alberto Del Rio (2 out of 3 Falls) ***
Dolph Ziggler vs Big Show vs Cody rhodes vs Drew Mcintyre **3/4

TNA Genesis

Kazarian vs Jay Lethal ***
Beer Money vs Motor City Machine Guns ***1/2


----------



## Chismo

MCMG vs Beer Money ****


----------



## Sunglasses

Wrestle Kingdom V, 04.01.2011 - IWGP Heavyweight Title: Satoshi Kojima (c) vs. Hiroshi Tanahashi - ****1/4


----------



## The Great Maijin

So far 
TNA MCMG/Beer Money 
NJPW Devitt/Ibushi & Kojima/Tanahashi
Tv Matches
Bigshow/Ziggler/Rhodes/McIntyre
Orton/Sheamus/Barrett was an okay tv match. wont be the best this month more than likely.


----------



## patrickshelley

will give this Miz vs Morrison a chance, i already see Morrison at the top of the WWE logo :O
EDITED: haha it looked like he was going to try a twist but than he realized it wasnt safe xD, another thing, that WWE logo looks like the illuminati pyramid :O
EDITED 2: Finished watching, didnt like much =/


----------



## seancarleton77

Nagata vs. Suzuki & Devitt vs. Ibushi are worth seeing, in fact they're quite entertaining.


----------



## The REAL MP

Kojima/Tanahashi RULED. I don't do snowflakes anymore but it looked like 4+, definitely worth going out of your way to see. 

Much better than their also awesome match from 8/15/10, which I can't say about Nakamura/Shiozaki.


----------



## Bubz

*Wrestle Kingdom V, 04.01.2011 - IWGP Heavyweight Title: Satoshi Kojima (c) vs. Hiroshi Tanahashi ****1/4*

This is the first great match of the year. Great work on the limbs of both guys and great selling that really helped the match.

The arm work by Tanahashi was great and it weakened Kojimas lariat enough for him to kick out and it was an awesome near fall, i genuinely thought it was over right there.


----------



## Bruce L

Lots of awesomeness in Kojima/Tanahashi. Not sure what my rating is, but I do know it drops significantly for one bit of psychology screwup I just can't ignore: In last year's G1 Climax final, there was a moment where Tanahashi had Kojima dead to rights, hit him with the frog splash, and then just to make sure, went back up to hit it again. The second time, Kojima got the knees up, and made a comeback.

Fast-forward to now, and the exact same thing happens in the rematch. And I mean the _exact_ same thing -- it's not like Tanahashi had just hit a huge match-ending move that he didn't get in the first match, something that would make him believe that this time, Kojima was too out of it to block the second splash (itself a stupid thing to go for if he believed Kojima was done, given how it backfired on him last time). To me, falling for the same thing against the same opponent twice, with no change in circumstance, just makes Tanahashi look stupid, which in turn makes Kojima look a bit lame when Tanahashi then goes on to beat him anyway.

On the other hand, maybe I wouldn't have noticed had I not just re-watched the August match last night. The Wrestle Kingdom match is still plenty good.


----------



## Bubz

I didn't see the august match, but that does sound odd that they did that, when two guys do a series of matches though they do end up doing alot of the same spots with eachother more often than not.


----------



## Speedy McGee

Besides Satoshi Kojima vs. Hiroshi Tanahashi are there any other matches from Wrestling Kingdom V that are worth checking out?


----------



## The REAL MP

Speedy McGee said:


> Besides Satoshi Kojima vs. Hiroshi Tanahashi are there any other matches from Wrestling Kingdom V that are worth checking out?


Yeah all three main events. The last one is the only MOTYC-worthy match, but they're all very good.

Really, the whole show is worth checking out though. It's one of the biggest pro wrestling shows of the year. Just make sure you clear out, like, half a week to get through it all because holy shit is it a long show.


----------



## seabs

*Kojima/Tanahashi is the only match I'd call great. There's plenty of good-very good matches though...

..and then there's the Jeff Hardy match.....

It's about 5 hours if you watch every match with entrances and build up packages.*


----------



## seancarleton77

Speedy McGee said:


> Besides Satoshi Kojima vs. Hiroshi Tanahashi are there any other matches from Wrestling Kingdom V that are worth checking out?


Suzuki vs. Nagata & Shiozaki vs. Nakamura. Also if you like JR stuff you will probably like Devitt vs. Ibushi, some people went as high as 4 and a half stars. I went about 3 and 3 quarters.


----------



## Bubz

I havn't really been that blown away with any Ibushi/Devitt matches, they are great fun but not on a MOTYC level.


----------



## dk4life

Devitt/Ibushi it was meh, maybe ***1/2 I downloaded a few from seebs upload, I'm going to watch Kojima/Tanahashi soon (looking forward to it too), I only watch what people say to check out on here

WWE has been decent, but nothing I would put in here, same with TNA, as much as I liked the show, there was nothing above 4 stars (or that close to be honest)


----------



## seancarleton77

WWE has been good on free tv, while failing to deliver on pay per view. How is that even possible, that's the opposite of how you're supposed to book. At least the Rumble is getting some decent build.


----------



## silver kyle

Mmm I thought WWE kind of delivered at their last PPV with the Fatal Fourway TLC match and the Ladder match between Sheamus and John Morrison.


----------



## Bubz

Yeah WWE PPV's are'nt that great but they are better than TNA's PPV's. TLC was pretty good IMO and they have been decent on TV recently, again alot better than TNA, that place is just a joke at the minute.


----------



## Boom Baby

Kota vs Devitt - ****1/4


----------



## silver kyle

RAW 01/03
The Miz vs. John Morrison ***1/2

Smackdown! 01/07
Edge vs. Kane ***
Big Show vs. Drew McIntyre vs. Cody Rhodes vs. Dolph Ziggler ***1/4
Rey Mysterio vs. Alberto Del Rio ***

NJPW Wrestle Kingdom V 01/04
Yuji Nagata vs. Minoru Suzuki ***1/2
Prince Devitt vs. Kota Ibushi ***1/2
Shinsuke Nakamura vs. Go Shiozaki ***1/2
Togi Makabe vs. Masato Tanaka ***1/4
Satoshi Kojima vs. Hiroshi Tanahashi ***3/4


----------



## Kapik1337

Prince Devitt vs. Kota Ibushi ****1/4


----------



## thejay

If you like the style of hard hitting: Big van Walter vs. Daisuke Sekimoto from wXw Back to the Roots X, Saturday 15th 2010


----------



## KingCrash

thejay said:


> If you like the style of hard hitting: Big van Walter vs. Daisuke Sekimoto from wXw Back to the Roots X, Saturday 15th 2010


Can't wait to see Sekimoto win the title. Since you were at the show, did they announce that Low Ki was in 16 Carat Gold this year?


----------



## German Wolve

KingCrash said:


> Can't wait to see Sekimoto win the title. Since you were at the show, did they announce that Low Ki was in 16 Carat Gold this year?


They didn't.


----------



## seabs

*Sat 15. Jan 2011 not 2010 right? Is it as good as their match @ 16 Carat because I loved that. *


----------



## KingCrash

Yeah it was on the 15th, Sekimoto is set to defend the title at 16 Carat vs. Bad Bones.


----------



## silver kyle

RAW 01/17

John Cena vs. CM Punk ***1/2

The only wrestled for about 12 mins, and the ending sucked(but acceptable and perfect for TV), but MAN this was good. It had the feeling and atmosphere of a PPV main event. These two NEED to have a real PPV match at some point this year. A good feud, proper build, and then a 20+ minute PPV match with a clean finish and you could easily have a MOTYC.


----------



## Bubz

> RAW 01/17
> 
> John Cena vs. CM Punk ***1/2
> 
> The only wrestled for about 12 mins, and the ending sucked(but acceptable and perfect for TV), but MAN this was good. It had the feeling and atmosphere of a PPV main event. These two NEED to have a real PPV match at some point this year. A good feud, proper build, and then a 20+ minute PPV match with a clean finish and you could easily have a MOTYC.


Agree completely, great tv match, and i can't wait to see them have a proper ppv match, Punk breaking out the Koji clutch was sick.


----------



## seancarleton77

Yoshihiro Takayama vs. KENTA - NOAH First Navigation 1.15.11 HOLY FUCKING SHIT! If both men weren't seeing double by the end of that match they are not human. 85% at least. Over 4 stars, maybe 4 and a half.

Kensuke Sasaki vs. Takuma Sano was also pretty good, though not really a match of the year candidate since Sano randomly applied a figure four leg lock in the middle of the match and the leg was forgot about, doesn't sound that bad? well Sasaki was selling the ribs perfectly right before the leg lock. Otherwise very good match.


----------



## silver kyle

seancarleton77 said:


> Yoshihiro Takayama vs. KENTA - NOAH First Navigation 1.15.11 HOLY FUCKING SHIT! If both men weren't seeing double by the end of that match they are not human. 85% at least. Over 4 stars, maybe 4 and a half.


I pretty much need to see this now lol.


----------



## Happy Loser

KENTA vs Takayama 1.15.11 **** This pretty much brings the violence by the bucketload. I feel somewhat injured after watching this match. Easily the best bit of wrestling I've seen this year.


----------



## geraldinhio

KENTA vs Takayama -I don't usually like doing stars but i'd give it probably ****1/4 stars or thereabouts.A brutal hard hitting war ,typical great KENTA match.My MOTY so far ,havn't seen much puro this year though ,anything else I should check out?


----------



## RoodyP00

Yoshihiro Takayama vs. KENTA - NOAH First Navigation 1.15.11 ***3/4 - ****

One Words : Brutal
I thought Kenta played the small man vs big man very well. The shots each other took were just sick.
Wished the match was longer though


----------



## Schorschi

KENTA vs. Takayama - ***3/4, great match but not really a MOTYC


----------



## Bubz

*Yoshihiro Takayama vs. KENTA - NOAH First Navigation 1.15.11 *****

Great Odin's Raven Holy BRUTAL STIFF FEST Batman!!!

Seriously, i mean the headbutt? It literally busted Takayama open and he was the one dishing it out!

I loved when KENTA tried to pin Takayama with his foot, Takayama just pushes it off, stands up, looks at KENTA with that look that reads "THE FUCK BITCH?" and proceeds to literally KNEE HIS FACE OFF!!!


----------



## seabs

*Thought KENTA/Takayama was great in stages, not MOTYC material though. Beginning and end were awesome but the middle dragged a lot and the crowd hurt it a lot in the middle too. Probably would have been ten times better with a hot Budokan crowd.*


----------



## antoniomare007

I agree with Seabs, it was an entertaining stiff match but there where parts were it dragged. The awful crowd (a constant problem in NOAH shows lately) didn't help either.


----------



## seancarleton77

I couldn't believe that was an Osaka crowd (they're usually the best). At some point I just said fuck them and tuned the crowd out and enjoyed the show anyway. I'm still sticking with Takayama vs. KENTA as my current match of the year.


----------



## gusbarba

Yoshihiro Takayama vs. KENTA - **** - Great Stiff Match


----------



## Chismo

Yeah, just watched KENTA/Takayama, great match. ****


----------



## dj161

KENTA vs Takayama - ***3/4, was a good stiff brawl between two guys who just wanted to beat the hell out of each other, but just seemed to be missing something to take it to that next level


----------



## seancarleton77

dj161 said:


> KENTA vs Takayama - ***3/4, was a good stiff brawl between two guys who just wanted to beat the hell out of each other, *but just seemed to be missing something to take it to that next level*


An audience with a pulse.


----------



## Bubz

Its definately in the two best matches of the year so far. I didn't really notice the crowd, but i swear in every KENTA match there is his version of that Jack Evans woman who used to just shout his name whenever he was out. KENTAAAA! KENTAAAAAAA! Fuck Off!


----------



## The REAL MP

bubz123 said:


> Its definately in the two best matches of the year so far. I didn't really notice the crowd, but i swear in every KENTA match there is his version of that Jack Evans woman who used to just shout his name whenever he was out. KENTAAAA! KENTAAAAAAA! Fuck Off!


Hahaha I know exactly who you're talking about, and I think it's actually a dude.


----------



## ddog121

Daniel Bryan v. Ted Dibiase (NXT 1-25) ***1/2

Find this match on youtube or skip through NXT to get to this match. It's really good.


----------



## zaqw222222

KENTA vs Takayama ****, Nice and brutal match.

Daniel Bryan v. Ted Dibiase NXT - ***, Excellent TV match between two, how I wish these two can get this same amount of time on RAW. This match clearly shows how underrated Ted Dibiase is as a wrestler and Bryan just have a habit of bringing the best out of people when they wrestling him.


----------



## 2010fighting

NOAH First Navigation 15/01/11

Naomichi Marufuji & Atsushi Aoki vs Atsushi Kotoge & Daisuke Harada ****
Kenta vs Yoshihiro Takayama ***3/4
Takashi Sugiura vs Bison Smith ***1/2
Jun Akiyama & Akitoshi Saito vs Go Shiozaki & Shuhei Taniguchi ***1/2
Takuma Sano vs Kensuke Sasaki ***1/4
Kotaro Suzuki & Yoshinari Ogawa vs Eddie Edwards & Bobby Fish ***


ROH HDnet 17/01/11

Chris Hero vs Christopher Daniels ***1/4

ROH HDnet 24/01/11

All Night Express vs Shelton Benjamin & Charlie Hass ***

WWE NXT 25/01/11

Daniel Bryan vs Ted Dibiase ***


----------



## Chismo

Hero/Daniels ***1/2

Bryan/DiBiase ***


----------



## lariatooooo!!!

KENTA vs. Takayama ***3/4-**** guess I have to watch it again



geraldinhio said:


> havn't seen much puro this year though ,anything else I should check out?


Takashi Sugiura & Yoshihiro Takayama vs. Hirooki Goto & Kazuchika Okada
Shinsuke Nakamura vs. Go Shiozaki 
Satoshi Kojima vs. Hiroshi Tanahashi

@ NJPW Wrestle Kingdom V.


----------



## seancarleton77

lariatooooo!!! said:


> Takashi Sugiura & Yoshihiro Takayama vs. Hirooki Goto & Kazuchika Okada


Avoid this like a deadly contagious disease. Worst Suguira match ever. And it was 100 percent due to Okada, or TNA fucking up with Okada.


----------



## The REAL MP

I wish they would've put Kanemoto in that match instead of Okada. I get why they went with Okada for promotional reasons, but the match would've been so much more stiff and hate-filled with Kanemoto. Plus Koji's way too good to be relegated to the dark matches.


----------



## Kid Kamikaze10

seancarleton77 said:


> *Avoid this like a deadly contagious disease.* Worst Suguira match ever. And it was 100 percent due to Okada, or TNA fucking up with Okada.


I totally know what you mean by that, but...


Remember, there was a Jeff Hardy match in that show... I think that match is more fitting for this warning.


----------



## ViolenceIsGolden

The REAL MP said:


> I wish they would've put Kanemoto in that match instead of Okada. I get why they went with Okada for promotional reasons, but the match would've been so much more stiff and hate-filled with Kanemoto. Plus Koji's way too good to be relegated to the dark matches.


Kanemoto is such a underrated wrestler right now. While he's one of the oldest members of the roster he also is one of the best workers. Every match I've ever seen of his has been very good and never gets any praise or coverage after wards ever. Kanemoto also once had a one on one 5 star match which when you think about it is impressive for a guy that doesn't get as much praise as most of the bigger names like Kobashi and Misawa. Today right now Kanemoto for me is easily one of the top 5 workers in the world. He's probably the most capable of having a great wrestling match than anybody in New Japan right now including Naomichi Marufuji who he actually had one of my favorite matches of 2010 with.


----------



## lariatooooo!!!

seancarleton77 said:


> Avoid this like a deadly contagious disease. Worst Suguira match ever. And it was 100 percent due to Okada, or TNA fucking up with Okada.


Haven't seen it completely tbh, but I think even if it was as bad as you say it was still one of the better matches of the show and the fact that Sugs and Takayama were teaming up is a reason to watch this, no matter who the other tag team was. Of course it should have been better.



ViolenceIsGolden said:


> Kanemoto is such a underrated wrestler right now. While he's one of the oldest members of the roster he also is one of the best workers. Every match I've ever seen of his has been very good and never gets any praise or coverage after wards ever. Kanemoto also once had a one on one 5 star match which when you think about it is impressive for a guy that doesn't get as much praise as most of the bigger names like Kobashi and Misawa. Today right now Kanemoto for me is easily one of the top 5 workers in the world. He's probably the most capable of having a great wrestling match than anybody in New Japan right now including Naomichi Marufuji who he actually had one of my favorite matches of 2010 with.


I agree, according to his age (44) he still IS awesome, but he won't get any younger and if you compare todays matches to his performances like 5 or 6 years ago you can see him being simply not as great as he was then. Maybe that's the reason as NJPW is not the kind of company which relies on their old stars like Pro Wrestling NOAH.


----------



## seabs

*I'd take a Koji match over pretty much anyone from NOAH bar maybe Shiozaki. He still does alright for himself given that he's an old junior. I mean juniors never get high placings on card unless there's a juniors tourney tour. The fact he was left off the WK5 card was a travesty though. The Okada tag was pretty bad but in comparison to Hardy/Naito it looked like a legit MOTY.*


----------



## seancarleton77

Koji Kanemoto = Better than your favourite Jr. Although Liger is up there and Devitt is fucking awesome.


----------



## ViolenceIsGolden

Chuck Taylor and Johnny Gargano vs. Ricochet and Naruki Doi from the ippv tonight in New York City. Good 3-4 star match. My MOTY so far above KENTA vs. Takayama.


----------



## WillTheBloody

I'll have to watch them at better quality later but Ronin/BW and CK-1/WORLD-1 from DGUSA's _United: NYC_ iPPV were both really great. Hulk/YAMATO and Aries/Swann delivered as well.


----------



## rafz

NOAH 15/01
_Yoshihiro Takayama vs. KENTA - _******


----------



## sXsCanadianFansXs

Takayama vs. KENTA ***3/4

I don't think I have the same philosophy as most when it comes to stiffness. Still, a very good match.


----------



## Bubz

> Takayama vs. KENTA ***3/4
> 
> I don't think I have the same philosophy as most when it comes to stiffness. Still, a very good match.


What do you consider stiff??


----------



## Boom Baby

DGUSA United: Philly

Masato Yoshino & PAC vs. Naruki Doi & Ricochet - ****1/2
WOW. MOTY so far. Amazing match.


----------



## TheAce

DGUSA UNITED: Philly

Tozawa Vs Aries - *** 3/4
Ronin Vs Cima/Dragon Kid - **** 1/4
PAC/Yoshino vs Doi/Riccochet ****


----------



## sXsCanadianFansXs

bubz123 said:


> What do you consider stiff??


I'm just not a huge fan of it.
Joe/Kobashi, although stiff, seemed to be a bunch of moves with little to no effect.

Bret Hart once said:
"Anyone can hit someone and make it hurt.."

Yep.


----------



## Noah Mark

Here are some of mine in no particular order:

Randy Orton vs Wade Barrett vs Sheamus- 1/3/2011
Black Terry/Cerebro *****/Dr Cerebro vs Jack/El Hijo Del Diablo/Avisman 1/6/2011
Black Terry/***** Navarro vs Angel Mortal/Gran Apache-1/9/2011Motor City Machine Guns vs Beer Money-Impact 1/13/2011 
Solar I/Ultraman/Ultimo Dragon vs Black Terry/***** Navarro/Mascara Ano 2000 Jr-1/1/2011 
Histeria II & Psicosis II vs Solar/***** Navarro-UWE 1/19/2011
Black Terry/Trauma I/Trauma II vs Rocky Santana/Sadico/Robin Maravilla-UWE 1/19/2011 
Takashi Sugiura vs Bison Smith-1/15/2011


----------



## sXsCanadianFansXs

Has anyone seen the women's ladder match that was on iPPV?

Apparently it's amazing.


----------



## Corey

*World Heavyweight Championship*
Edge(c) vs. Dolph Ziggler - ****
_Royal Rumble. Great match with great counters. The first true MOTYC I've seen this year._


----------



## FITZ

Jack Evans 187 said:


> *World Heavyweight Championship*
> Edge(c) vs. Dolph Ziggler - ****
> _Royal Rumble. Great match with great counters. The first true MOTYC I've seen this year._


I loved this match. Happy to see that Edge can still have a great match.


----------



## seancarleton77

Ziggler vs. Edge was great... would have been greater if Ziggler had beat Edge.


----------



## The REAL MP

The Rumble match is the EASY Match of the Year so far.


----------



## Caligula

Jack Evans 187 said:


> *World Heavyweight Championship*
> Edge(c) vs. Dolph Ziggler - ****
> _Royal Rumble. Great match with great counters. The first true MOTYC I've seen this year._


which counter was your favorite


----------



## Corey

Feech La Manna said:


> which counter was your favorite


Probably the zig zag into the power bomb, I think that's what it was. But you had to love when Edge missed the dive into the ropes and Ziggler hit that quick fame-asser. Awesome stuff.

I AM PERFECTION!


----------



## TelkEvolon

The REAL MP said:


> The Rumble match is the EASY Match of the Year so far.


PAH!


----------



## ViolenceIsGolden

I think my sig says it all. The Boston crowd being red hot for Edge was making me mark so much for this match and made the difference over the 3 or 4 Dragon Gate matches over the last few days as well as the NOAH and Wrestle Kingdom matches I enjoyed as well. Lots of great stuff in the match tonight and I believed Dolph Ziggler was actually going to win this match. I loved that ass on Vicky too but that has nothing to do with this MOTY so far.

The Royal Rumble match was very good in certain spots with Punk, Bryan, Morrison, and Regal but once they were eliminated and the focus was around Cena the match went downhill big time for me and felt even worse than last years which is sad to say because it was feeling like one of the best in years especially with the fans so into the countdowns and the action. Nash and Booker T were nostalgic surprises and I enjoyed Del Rio winning a lot even though it makes me question if he's having sexual relations with Vince McMahon. I have to say it's a smart move by McMahon though because there's money to be made in Mexico.


----------



## WillTheBloody

Four stars for Edge/Ziggler from me as well. The Rumble started off amazing and just died right after Barrett got his big elimination. Miz/Orton was awful, too.


----------



## SHIRLEY

WillTheBloody said:


> Miz/Orton was awful, too.


I can't believe how bad that match was.


----------



## KingCrash

Shirley Crabtree III said:


> I can't believe how bad that match was.


Seeing their past matches and interaction between the two of them I can't see how there was any hope of seeing something decent.


----------



## Chismo

Edge/Ziggler ****

Dolphy was excellent (as usual) and he did his best to carry Edge to four stars level.


----------



## KingKicks

The Rumble was awesome up until the Hornswoggle stuff. That really made took some of the enjoyment out of it (for me anyway).


----------



## SuperDuperDragon

I thought the rumble was going to be so awesome, it was for a bit, damn I hate to sound so 2005 but Cena kind of ruined that match for me. Not just him but ill put the blame on him because it is easy.


----------



## seancarleton77

Edge vs. Ziggler - Royal Rumble = 80%


----------



## TheAce

I marked all the way trough the first half of the Rumble. then....meh...


----------



## The REAL MP

The Hornswoggle stuff wasn't my favorite, but I thought it was at least a little funny and I'd rather see something like that than 15 guys clogging up the ring and doing nothing. Marked for Booker T, marked for Diesel since I didn't know anything about them coming back. And then I marked HARD for Del Rio winning because I fucking love that guy.


----------



## The REAL MP

The not-at-all-epic staredown between Cena and Orton was pretty embarrassing though. And I marked for it not working since that should be an obvious sign to the office that no one cares to see those two hook up again.


----------



## Bubz

*Edge vs Ziggler *****

GREAT match. I don't care what anybody says Edge is still awesome and one of the best workers in the WWE. Ziggler is honestly up there as well. Great near falls, every near fall was so convincing, and i marked out big time for some stuff such as the Fame-asser into the powerbomb and Edge hitting the KillSwitch was awesome. Second best match of the year. This match reminded me of why i still watch WWE, they are able to produce some of the most convincing near falls in big matches because you never realy expect anybody to kick out of a finisher.


----------



## dj161

Edge vs Ziggler gets **** from me too, great match, not often you see a **** match open any show, let alone a wwe one


----------



## jawbreaker

Edge/Ziggler was ***1/2 maybe. Some good counters but god damn I don't need Vickie Guerrero ever and the entire thing just stunk of WWE shenanigans. Ziggler on the other hand is fantastic. Sold the midsection awesomely all night, bumped well, and actually had a bit of charisma.

Still, the Rumble show as a whole reminded me why I don't watch WWE any more. Just about everything that happened was predictable, and I haven't watched a WWE show in six months (and a weekly in over a year).


----------



## sXsCanadianFansXs

Ziggler/Edge ***3/4 - **** (have to rewatch it).
Royal Rumble ***3/4 (The first half was ****1/2 territory, the middle was about **, and the end was around ***).


----------



## Speedy McGee

Edge vs. Dolph Ziggler ****- Wow, what a awesome way to kick off the show. The Boston crowd was red hot the whole night but they were at their hottest during this match. A couple of really close falls in this match which had me really thinking if Dolph Ziggler might walk out the champion. It was overbooked torwards the end but I think that added to the match a lot. The spear stipulation also made the match unique. Great showing by both men, and even though Ziggler lost he looked great losing.

The Royal Rumble ***1/2- The first half of this match was amazing. Daniel Bryan and CM Punk were the perfect choices to start this match. All of the really athletic talented wrestlers all had the lower entry number which helped this match kicked to a tremendous start. John Morrison's elimanation saving leap to the barricade was amazing, and I was marking out really hard. The match slowed down once the Nexus got in there, but I kinda liked the Nexus dominating the Rumble. It was building up to John Cena's entry into the Rumble and Cena got a huge pop from the Boston crowd once Cena made his entrance. Up to this point this Rumble was turning out to be one of the best Royal Rumbles I have ever seen, and then Hornswoggle made his appearance and it all went downhill from there. The Hornswoggle stuff was fun for a second, but I was begging Cena or somebody to eliminate this little guy. After Hornswoggle was elimanated the action slowed down tremendously and everything started to get a little sloppy. I don't know why but torwards the end of the second half of the match everything was starting to become distorted. I will admit there was a lot of suprises torwards the end which got me on my toes, but the action was flowing right. Soo, I'll give it ****1/4 for the first half and *** for the second half. I'll give the overall match ***1/2 stars. 
P.S- I marked out at the end when Santino attacked Del Rio. I really thought for a second that Santino was about to win the Royal Rumble, and it would of been one of the most ballsey moves WWE has ever done.


----------



## Bubz

I enjoyed the rumble alot actually. The start was great with Punk/Bryan/Regal and a few other guys that put on some nice exchanges. The Nexus stuff was okay, i love punk and his mannerisms so that helped it, I actually liked Cena coming out and taking out nexus, but then the Hornswaggle stuff was stupid, apart from Punk kciking him in the face, that was awesome. Booker was cool but i could'nt care less about Nash. It got better after Sheamus came in and destroyed that little midget and then it picked up again towards the end and i love Del Rio so that was a cool suprise. I enjoyed watching it but i could'nt put a rating on it, worth a watch at least if your bored or something.


----------



## ddog121

Eddie Edwards v. Christopher Daniels (ROH on HDNet 1-31) ****1/4


----------



## rafz

WWE Royal Rumble
_Edge vs. Dolph Ziggler - _******


----------



## Chismo

Edwards vs Daniels ****1/4

My MOTYC.


----------



## Corey

I have Edwards/Daniels at ***3/4. Great match with some nice spots but I wouldn't call it a motyc. Not enough near falls and the finish was very sudden. And for some reason I just cannot get into the HDNet matches near as much compared to ROH's actual events. Maybe it's the smaller crowd or the announcing but I just can't seem to get as interested.


----------



## Brandenthesmark

Davey Richards vs Low Ki at PWG Wrestlereunion awesome match ****1/2


----------



## Bubz

> I have Edwards/Daniels at ***3/4. Great match with some nice spots but I wouldn't call it a motyc. Not enough near falls and the finish was very sudden. *And for some reason I just cannot get into the HDNet matches near as much compared to ROH's actual events.* Maybe it's the smaller crowd or the announcing but I just can't seem to get as interested.


I have'nt seen that match yet, but i agree, matches on the HDNet show are harder to get into. Its something to do with the quietness of the crowd and the way they light it that takes away from it IMO, even though the production is obviously better.


----------



## The REAL MP

Yeeeeeah I watched Ziggler/Edge again and I think it belongs here. Around the 4 snowflake territory. The crowd really made it and some of those nearfalls were red hot. Good psychology too with Dolph selling the ribs and Edge having to bust out the old moves (with Edgy names) since he couldn't use the spear. Still liked the Rumble match better.

Daniels/Edwards though...I don't know. It was very solid, which is what you always get from those two (for better or worse). But I don't think its MOTYC material.


----------



## sXsCanadianFansXs

Ring of Honor Television Championship: Eddie Edwards (c) vs. Christopher Daniels ***3/4 

It was a pretty good match but I'm not sure Edwards was consistent with his selling. Not quite **** for me.


----------



## Saint Dick

Edge vs. Dolph Ziggler - Royal Rumble 1/30/11
I think this is being overrated on here. It was a good match but not four star quality imo. It was solid the whole way through and some of the nearfalls at the end were really good but big chunks of the match were uninspiring. I wouldn't call anything they did bad but I can't say I was totally into it at all times. That powerbomb counter Edge hit was dope though.


----------



## sXsCanadianFansXs

Ownage™;9300074 said:


> Edge vs. Dolph Ziggler - Royal Rumble 1/30/11
> I think this is being overrated on here. It was a good match but not four star quality imo. It was solid the whole way through and some of the nearfalls at the end were really good but big chunks of the match were uninspiring. I wouldn't call anything they did bad but I can't say I was totally into it at all times. That powerbomb counter Edge hit was dope though.


I have it at ***3/4. I think most people are forgetting the multiple chinlocks/headlocks Dolph used in the beginning/middle portions. It works for his character (one of his finishers is a sleeper, so naturally he'll want to wear out his opponent) but it's not at the level of Ziggler/Bryan from last year. Nonetheless, the end was overbooking at it's finest with a really smart finish.

*Dragon Gate USA:*

NYC: 

-Open the Freedom Gate Championship: BxB Hulk © vs. YAMATO (DGUSA United: NYC, January 28th, ***1/4)
What the hell was this? It was a fine match from an athletic standpoint but the useless Julius Smokes run-in and abrupt, anticlimactic ending really took away from it. Oh -- and 3rd match?

-Naruki Doi & Ricochet vs. Chuck Taylor & Johnny Gargano (DGUSA: United: NYC, January 28th, ***3/4)
I really, really liked this match. It was definitely spotty but everything was crisp and Ronin looked great in a main-event level match.

-CIMA & Dragon Kid vs. Masato Yoshino & PAC (United: NYC, January 28th, ****) 
The best match of the two iPPV's. I think what separates this from the others were the legitimate face-in-peril spots rather than just a continuous swing of momentum between two teams. They started slow and built to an exhilarating conclusion. Probably my match of the year right now (doesn't say much).

Philly:

-CIMA & Dragon Kid vs. Chuck Taylor & Johnny Gargano (DGUSA: United: Philly, January 29th, ***3/4)
Ronin looks great once again but the overly convoluted double bulldog and spanking spots really took me out of this one. The action looked pretty choreographed which keeps this from four star territory but it's still a great showcase for America's breakout team.

-Naruki Doi & Ricochet vs. Masato Yoshino & PAC (DGUSA: United: Philly, January 29th, ***3/4)
I've seen people rate this is as high as ****1/2. If you were to make a highlight reel from this match, it'd be in the five-star territory but the transitions and heat just weren't there. It was a gymnastics display more than a wrestling match, and there were a few botches as well. Amazing moves with little story can only take you so far.


----------



## Saint Dick

sXsCanadianFansXs said:


> I have it at ***3/4. I think most people are forgetting the multiple chinlocks/headlocks Dolph used in the beginning/middle portions. It works for his character (one of his finishers is a sleeper, so naturally he'll want to wear out his opponent) but it's not at the level of Ziggler/Bryan from last year. Nonetheless, the end was overbooking at it's finest with a really smart finish.


Ziggler/Bryan is comfortably better. I'd take Miz/Morrison from Raw 1/3 over it as well.


----------



## The REAL MP

On the subject of the DGUSA shows, I liked Aries vs. Tozawa from Philly more than anything else over those two shows. It's not a MOTYC either, but hey, it's something for them. 

Plus, Tozawa is awesome.


----------



## KingCrash

*PWG - Cyanide: A Loving Tribute to Poison*
Kevin Steen vs. Akira Tozawa - ****

Steen just killed this poor guy but he kept coming back like the crazed madman he is. Helped that Steen was on fire with his stuff and the crowd just fell in love with Tozawa. Hero/Tozawa is better, but not by much.


----------



## 2010fighting

WWE Royal Rumble

The Miz vs Randy Orton ***

Edge vs Dolph Ziggler ***1/2

Royal Rumble Match ***3/4

NOAH First Navigation 23/01/11

Yoshihiro Takayama & Takuma Sano vs KENTA & Taiji Ishimori ***1/2

Go Shiozaki, Yoshinari Ogawa & Kotaro Suzuki vs Bison Smith, Eddie Edwards & Bobby Fish ***1/2

Jun Akiyama, Naomichi Marufuji & Shuhei Taniguchi vs Kensuke Sasaki, Katsuhiko Nakajima & Kento Miyahara ****


----------



## Bubz

*Daniels vs Edwards ROH on HDNet *****

Really good match but some small things kept it from being higher such as selling and continuity issues (why did Edwards work on the arm and then forget about it and try and win with a leg submission) but the action was great as was the story of Edwards being too resilient for his own good and asking for the restart.


----------



## seabs

*Thought Edwards/Daniels was a fine TV match but nothing more than that at all, definitely not MOTYC material. Crowd was shit even in the different arena and the wrestling didn't do anything to make up for the lack of atmosphere. Enjoyed the story behind Eddie's resiliency and constantly wanting to fight catching up with him was great.

Thought Edge/Ziggler was *** at best too. Really suprised when I saw people posting it in here.*


----------



## dj161

Daniels vs Edwards - Jan 31st ROH on HDNet - ****


----------



## seancarleton77

*ZERO1 1.1.11*

*Daisuke Sekimoto vs. Ikuto Hidaka* = A fucking masterpiece! Blows away everything else in 2011.


----------



## Bubz

> ZERO1 1.1.11
> 
> Daisuke Sekimoto vs. Ikuto Hidaka = A fucking masterpiece! Blows away everything else in 2011.


You know how to hype a match lol gotta check this out


----------



## seancarleton77

I thought Edwards vs. Daniels was pretty good, that's it. 3 and a half snowflakes.


----------



## sXsCanadianFansXs

ZERO1 1.1.11

Daisuke Sekimoto vs. Ikuto Hidaka ***3/4

This was awesome athletically but Sekimoto's selling was ridiculously inconsistent. The leg work didn't mean much when he was sprinting across the ropes, throwing picture perfect dropkicks or moving around flawlessly. Consequently, Hidaka's final leg submissions weren't as impactful. Ultimately, I never felt like Hidaka was wearing Sekimoto down as he never sold anything. As far as big man vs. little guy matches go, this was good but a major step down from something like Davey/Hero from PWG's "Seven".


----------



## seabs

*CIMA & Dragon Kid vs Chuck Taylor & Johnny Gargano - DGUSA 29/01/2011*_If this took place last year I'm pretty sure I'd have it in the top 5 vacinity and I'm quite sure it'll stay that high this year. I dont know if I've had a complete change of heart on Dragon Gate this week or if I've just been watching them at their best but fuck I've enjoyed the DG stuff I've been watching this week a lot. CIMA/Kid are such a great team, even better when Ricochet gets involved in trios matches. Really dig the double teams they pull off every match and some of the stuff is unique, unique in a good way too. There's one spot they've been doing lately where one guys hanging through the ropes with his ass sticking out and then they stick his partner with his face up the other guys butt and they dropkick him. It's goofy and everything but it's really fun to watch. At least for now. The story here with CIMA and Kid having zero respect for these two Indy guys is great and it plays nicely into that spot too with CIMA just slapping a defenseless Taylor on the ass just mocking him. CIMA does a really good job of getting him and Kid over as heels which is quite a feat. The night before they just totally failed but the second night really did a good job of getting the superfaction over as heels. Thankfully this isn't a spotfest and it doesn't have the massive Indy finishing strecth where they go through their arsenals and kick out of everything. Also glad they didn't do the usual Gabe tag formula where everyone tags in and out doing moves with no substance. There was a clear heel control segment over the babyface here and it helped so much. Finish was about as good as it could be in not hurting the match and getting Ronin over huge with Gargano not only pinning CIMA but making him tap. Super enjoyable match and helped a lot by the significance of the match for both teams characters. Got Ronin over as credible guys and not just all talk goofs and got the superfaction over as heels with the beatdown afterwards. Speaking of more goofiness Taylor and Gargano do this awesome sequence where they do whatever move it is and then do the most goofiest, awesomeist white boy dancin ever before just going back to kicking the shit out of their opponent. One of the best matches DGUSA have done for many reasons._

*****1/2*

*Masato Yoshino & PAC vs Naruki Doi & Ricochet - DGUSA 29/01/2011*
_****1/4_

*Naruki Doi & Ricochet vs Chuck Taylor & Johnny Gargano - DGUSA 28/01/2011*
_****_

*CIMA & Dragon Kid vs Masato Yoshino & PAC - DGUSA 28/01/2011*
_****_


----------



## lariatooooo!!!

seancarleton77 said:


> *ZERO1 1.1.11*
> 
> *Daisuke Sekimoto vs. Ikuto Hidaka* = A fucking masterpiece! Blows away everything else in 2011.


Ô_Ô I have to check this out.


----------



## ddog121

Seabs, i agree with everything you said about CIMA/Kid v. Ronin. Just an unbelievable match and my current MOTY ****1/2


----------



## AmWolves10

Either of the two big DGUSA tag matches(Cima & Dragon Kid vs Chuck Taylor and Johnny Gargano or Yoshino/Pac vs Doi/Ricochet)


----------



## TheAce

> I dont know if I've had a complete change of heart on Dragon Gate this week or if I've just been watching them at their best but fuck I've enjoyed the DG stuff I've been watching this week a lot.



Man, I'm with you. My ratings are right inline with yours and I really have been enjoying it more overall.


----------



## seabs

*It's definitely helped a lot that they seem to have dropped down on the huge Indyriffic finishing stretches where they kick out of everything. Even Yoshino/Doi from the last DG PPV didn't have it and the main events for the Dream Gate title are normally consistantly terrible for that. *


----------



## TelkEvolon

Dragon Gate has always kept me enetertained, even if there are some not so great matches, they still entertained me.


----------



## 2010fighting

DGUSA United NYC 28/1/11

Naruki Doi & Ricochet vs Chuck Taylor & Johnny Gargano ***3/4

BxB Hulk vs YAMATO ***3/4

CIMA & Dragon Kid vs Masato Yoshino & PAC ***3/4

DGUSA United Philly 29/1/11

Masato Yoshino & PAC vs Naruki Doi & Ricochet ****

CIMA & Dragon Kid vs Chuck Taylor & Johnny Gargano ***3/4

Austin Aries vs Akira Tozawa ***1/2


----------



## dj161

NJPW/CMLL FantasticaMania - Jan 23rd 2011

Golden Lovers vs Apollo 55 - ****1/4-1/2

Best match i've seen so far this year, just felt it could of gone longer, though having a match end earlier than you expect isn't necessarily a bad thing


----------



## lariatooooo!!!

Daisuke Sekimoto vs. Ikuto Hidaka 
One of Sekimoto's best single matches, probably the best I've seen by now. Hidaka does his job as good as always, trying to destroy DAISKE's leg was a funny idea, but he could have sold it better imo. Still a pretty good match on the whole, definitely the best happened in 2011 so far. I got a feeling that this will be Daiske's year. *****1/4*


----------



## Kapik1337

NJPW/CMLL FantasticaMania - Jado & Gedo Vs. Máximo & Danshoku Dino - *****


----------



## lariatooooo!!!

*NJPW/CMLL FantasticaMania ~ Day 1*

Máscara Dorada vs. Ryuske Taguchi ***1/4+
Jushin "Thunder" Liger vs. La Sombra ***3/4
Giant Bernard & Karl Anderson (c) Vs. Atlantis & OKUMURA ***1/4
Hiroshi Tanahashi, Mistico & Prince Devitt Vs. Shinsuke Nakamura, Averno & Tetsuya Naito ***1/2

Liger vs. Sombra was the MOTN, really enjoyable show imo. Tanahashi vs. Nakamura in the main event was very sweet, hope they'll meet in a title match later this year.


----------



## The REAL MP

Both of those Fantasticamania shows are a ton of fun, although La Mascara might be the worst professional wrestler I've ever seen. The two main events from Night 2 are fantastic, and IWGP Jr. Tag title match is probably my current MOTY.


----------



## jawbreaker

Hidaka vs. Sekimoto - ****1/4.

Hidaka was fucking incredible. He played his role beautifully, attacking Sekimoto's leg at every opportunity and then just going for the kicks to the head. Sekimoto looked like a total beast, but he could have done so while selling the leg a bit. If he sells the leg credibly then this match is maybe ****3/4, possibly pushing five, but since he just acted normally except when Hidaka was actively working on it, it suffers a bit. Still great because it made me legit believe Hidaka could win and because the dynamic between the two was so fucking brilliant.


----------



## sXsCanadianFansXs

Is there anything above **** on the Dragon Gate Infinity shows?

I guess I'm harsher than I have been because I've only three **** matches this year with Golden Lovers vs. Apollo 55 still to watch.

A ton of matches that are ***3/4, though.


----------



## Sunglasses

World Heavyweight Title - Daisuke Sekimoto (c) vs. Ikuto Hidaka (01.01.2011) -> ****1/4
best so far and a bit better than the WK V main event.

IWGP Jr. Heavyweight Tag Team Title - Golden Lovers (c) vs. Apollo55 -> **** 
... can't see Taguchi winning another title -.- Match was good, but this matchup should be over now.


----------



## seabs

sXsCanadianFansXs said:


> Is there anything above **** on the Dragon Gate Infinity shows?


*There was quite a few last year. The Ricochet 6 man from a week or two ago on Infinity was great.*

*Prince Devitt & Ryusuke Taguchi vs Kota Ibsuhi & Kenny Omega - IWGP Jr. Heavyweight Championships - NJPW 23.01.2011*
_***3/4_


----------



## ddog121

the recent infinity (202) has a **** 6 man tag


----------



## seancarleton77

My top 7 Matches of 2011, so far:

1. Daisuke Sekimoto vs. Ikuto Hidaka 1.1

2. Yoshihiro Takayama vs. KENTA - 1.15

3. Golden Lovers Vs. Apollo 55 - 1.23

3. Hiroshi Tanahashi vs. Satoshi Kojima 1.4

4. Minoru Suzuki vs. Yuji Nagata 1.4

5. Edge vs. Dolph Ziggler 1.30

6. Tanahashi, Mistico & Devitt vs Nakamura, Averno & Naito - 1.23

7. Kings Of Wrestling & All Night Express vs Briscoes, Benjamin & Haas 2.7


----------



## dj161

Eddie Edwards vs Kotaro Suzuki - NOAH - Jan 29th 2011 - ****1/2

my MOTY so far, great stuff from both guys


----------



## Bubz

I don't think i can be bothered to watch another Apollo 55 vs Golden Lovers match again. The matches they had last year where great but exactly the same, is this one different?


----------



## Violent By Design

bubz123 said:


> I don't think i can be bothered to watch another Apollo 55 vs Golden Lovers match again. The matches they had last year where great but exactly the same, is this one different?


That's what I'm thinking.


----------



## seabs

dj161 said:


> Eddie Edwards vs Kotaro Suzuki - NOAH - Jan 29th 2011 - ****1/2
> 
> my MOTY so far, great stuff from both guys


*This is actually pretty great as far as Junior Indy type matches go. Started off hot and for a lengthy juniors match it was extremely watchable and didn't drag a bit. They didn't do any overly stupid spots that weren't believable. It did feel a bit coreographed but it more positives than negatives. When I saw this rating I was even more sceptical about watching it strangely enough cause I saw it as being a Marufuji/Kanemaru scenario when it gets some majkor pimping but I end up loathing it. Edwards/Suzuki main eventing a Korakuen Hall show is brilliant for them but it doesn't say much for NOAH when they cant fork out a better main event for such a big show. Both guys made the most of the oppurtunity though and they looked like superstars. The chop exchanges were great and Suzuki sold them brilliantly well. Both men really sold the match as a battle and not just a match. The rolling pen sequence was one of the best versions of that spot that I've seen anyone do in a long time too. Enjoyed the lack of big spots at the end too. High end **** and about as good a NOAH juniors match I can see them having for a long time.*



bubz123 said:


> I don't think i can be bothered to watch another Apollo 55 vs Golden Lovers match again. The matches they had last year where great but exactly the same, is this one different?


*They only had 2 matches with each other last year and one was in DDT which should be ignored really. They tried a lot of new spots that they didn't do in the first match, some worked and some didn't. It's not as great as the first title switch but it's still very strong and worth watching.*


----------



## seancarleton77

Kotaro Suzuki vs Eddie Edwards 1.29.11 ****+ - ****1/4
Morishima & Taniguchi vs. Sasaki & Nakajima 1.29.11 ***3/4 - ****


----------



## rafz

NJPW/CMLL Fantasticamania 23/01
_Kota Ibsuhi & Kenny Omega vs. Prince Devitt & Ryusuke Taguchi - _******

NOAH The First Navigation 29/01
_Kotaro Suzuki vs. Eddie Edwards - _*****1/4*


----------



## Chismo

Suzuki/Edwards ***1/2

Very good, but not MOTYC material.


----------



## sXsCanadianFansXs

GHC Jr. Heavyweight Championship: Kotaro Suzuki (c) vs. Eddie Edwards ****1/4 - ****1/2 (Until I settle on a final rating, I guess I'll go with the somewhat convoluted ****2/5). 

Head and shoulders above every other match this year imo. A star making performance from Edwards (in my eyes at least). I loved pretty much everything about this -- from the perfectly executed + paced high spots, innovative counters and crowd heat, this will be tough to beat. 

Can't say enough good things about this one. Surprised the hell out of me when I thought I would enjoy 
Hidaka/Sekimoto and KENTA/Takayama a lot more (both of which I rated ***3/4).

Now onto Golden Lovers/Apollo 55 and I will be caught up this year.


----------



## Sunglasses

Edwards vs. Suzuki (GHC Jr. Title): ****1/4 

both with great performances, a few big spots and a lot of stiff action. a perfect mix of everything they had to offer.


----------



## Bubz

*Daisuke Sekimoto (c) vs Ikuto Hidaka - (ZERO-1 - 01/01/11) ****1/4*

Great match. I am not that familiar with Sekimoto's work and hearing the love he gets around here i needed to check this out. He really really impressed me here, apart from some selling issues, his offense looked great and that Joe-esque kick was epic. The guy is a beast. Hidaka is awesome and if Sekimoto had sold the leg better, this would have been higher for sure. Definate MOTY so far though.

Scratch that last comment, This is my MOTY: *Kotaro Suzuki vs Eddie Edwards NOAH First Navigation ****1/4*

Wow! I did not expect that level of goodness. It was non stop action for about 20 minutes and they still saved the big spots until near the end (apart from the Die Hard on the apron, that was pretty early in the match so it was suprising). I have to say that Eddie was the man in this match, he was the one that carried this match to the next level. Say what you will about Eddie but he is a hell of a worker IMO. I honestly think that if they had ended it a little sooner it would have been higher maybe ****1/2 but it went for slightly too long. The top rope rana and then the powerbomb was one of the best bear falls i have seen since Tyler vs Davey last year.


----------



## perucho1990

Jeff Jarrett vs Kurt Angle Against All Odds 2011

****


----------



## Chismo

Too much for Angle/JJ. It was very good, but not 4 star material, IMO.


----------



## CM Skittle

Eddie Edwards vs. Christopher Daniels - TV title match - ****


----------



## silver kyle

*WWE Royal Rumble 01/30/2011*
- Edge vs. Dolph Ziggler ***3/4
- Royal Rumble 2011 ***1/2

*NOAH 01/15/2011*
- Yoshihiro Takayama vs KENTA ***1/2

*NJPW 01/23/2011*
- Prince Devitt & Ryusuke Taguchi vs. Kota Ibsuhi & Kenny Omega ***3/4

*ROH 01/31/2011*
- Eddie Edwards vs. Christopher Daniels ***1/2


----------



## sXsCanadianFansXs

TNA Against All Odds

Kurt Angle vs. Jeff Jarrett ***1/4 - ***1/2


----------



## seancarleton77

Daniel Bryan vs. The Miz - 02.14.2011. Maybe not a true MOTYC but a must see for WWE & TNA fans, since they have lower standards and all. 

If only The Miz could face main event guys even half as talented as Daniel Bryan he'd be... well a credible champion actually.


----------



## abv

seancarleton77 said:


> Daniel Bryan vs. The Miz - 02.14.2011. Maybe not a true MOTYC but a must see for WWE & TNA fans, since they have lower standards and all.
> 
> If only The Miz could face main event guys even half as talented as Daniel Bryan he'd be... well a credible champion actually.


Yeah, WWE and TNA fans have lower standards, they are not that "smark" as the fans of skinny guys with no personality and no looks jumping around the ring for 90+ minutes.


----------



## smitlick

Would you please point me towards anywhere in the bigger Indy companies where a skinny guy with no personality and no look jumps around for 90+ minutes.


----------



## Bubz

Don't listen to *abv*. I have come to realise he is probably the shitest poster on these boards and he only comes in this section to make cracks at indy wrestling. Fucking douche.

WWE has been awesome this year so far IMO. Almost every week they put on good tv matches and the PPV was decent.


----------



## Kapik1337

NJPW/CMLL FantasticaMania - Apollo 55 vs. Golden Lovers - ****1/4
NOAH First Navigation - Kotaro Suzuki vs. Eddie Edwards - ****1/2


----------



## seancarleton77

What does WWE have: How about a Champion who wins and loses the title like a boxer with a gambling habit, TNA has a bloated drug addict who thinks he's cool despite not being relevant since 2009 as champion.

All WWE has going for them is a returning legend who won't wrestle in The Rock, Alberto Del Rio, Dolph Ziggler, CM Punk and an in limbo Daniel Bryan. TNA has The Motor City Machine Guns and a bunch of talented guys being put on the back burner so people in their 40's can shine... or just slip and break their hips.

In Japan Pro-Wrestling NOAH has a World Champion who will soon be on his thirteenth World Title defence and over 1 year reign as Champion, and they don't even have Sugiura defend his Title on the smaller shows. New Japan has the number one Jr/Crusierweight/X-Division wrestler in the entire world in Prince Devitt. And New Japan also has arguably the most dominate tag team in wrestling today in Bad Intentions, and if they don't have the best tag team in the world ROH does with Kings of Wrestling.

The best wrestling in the world isn't even taking place on American soil.


----------



## The REAL MP

Man, you just made me want to see Bad Intentions vs. KOW really bad.


----------



## seancarleton77

The REAL MP said:


> Man, you just made me want to see Bad Intentions vs. KOW really bad.


And by pointing that out you made me want to see that match as well!


----------



## Bubz

seancarleton77 said:


> What does WWE have: How about a Champion who wins and loses the title like a boxer with a gambling habit, TNA has a bloated drug addict who thinks he's cool despite not being relevant since 2009 as champion.
> 
> All WWE has going for them is a returning legend who won't wrestle in The Rock, Alberto Del Rio, Dolph Ziggler, CM Punk and an in limbo Daniel Bryan. TNA has The Motor City Machine Guns and a bunch of talented guys being put on the back burner so people in their 40's can shine... or just slip and break their hips.
> 
> In Japan Pro-Wrestling NOAH has a World Champion who will soon be on his thirteenth World Title defence and over 1 year reign as Champion, and they don't even have Sugiura defend his Title on the smaller shows. New Japan has the number one Jr/Crusierweight/X-Division wrestler in the entire world in Prince Devitt. And New Japan also has arguably the most dominate tag team in wrestling today in Bad Intentions, and if they don't have the best tag team in the world ROH does with Kings of Wrestling.
> 
> The best wrestling in the world isn't even taking place on American soil.


I completely agree with everything you said, but i was just saying as far as wrestling on TV goes the E has been enjoyable this year.


----------



## silver kyle

bubz123 said:


> I completely agree with everything you said, but i was just saying as far as wrestling on TV goes the E has been enjoyable this year.


I've been enjoying the tv matches that the WWE have been giving us since about 2009. Good stuff almost every week since then. Heck, ECW near it's end was really pumping out the good stuff. 

If only their builds and storylines were as steady.


----------



## Bubz

They are doing a great job of hyping Mania IMO with Rocky coming back which was awesome to watch, and now these 2-21-11 videos which are creating a ton of hype, just gotta see if they can produce something that lives up to it.


----------



## silver kyle

bubz123 said:


> They are doing a great job of hyping Mania IMO with Rocky coming back which was awesome to watch, and now these 2-21-11 videos which are creating a ton of hype, just gotta see if they can produce something that lives up to it.


Yeah, I've actually been really into what they've been doing lately, and have really done a good job with surprises like Nash, Booker and The Rock. Hell, Triple H, Undertaker, Christian and even Evan Bourne haven't returned yet. The upcoming weeks should definitely be interesting.

I just meant in general I'm usually not happy with their builds.


----------



## seancarleton77

bubz123 said:


> I completely agree with everything you said, but i was just saying as far as wrestling on TV goes the E has been enjoyable this year.


I have to agree it's just the skits, booking and pay per views by WWE that are unbearable. The actual wrestling by WWE's young guys on tv has been really good. But other then Wrestlemania they can't promote shit.


----------



## brandeito

sean i understand you have an opinion but you seriously overrate puro today epecially when you compared kobashi and misawa to shiozaki and nakamura there is no comparision and when you call puro matches masterpieces and they are nowhere close to that, and at least wwe has booking with logical storylines, unlike most puro companies that just have confrontations and then title matches


----------



## Violent By Design

seancarleton77 said:


> I have to agree it's just the skits, booking and pay per views by WWE that are unbearable. The actual wrestling by WWE's young guys on tv has been really good. But other then Wrestlemania they can't promote shit.


The PPVs? PPVs are the only time when I know I'm going to see wrestling


----------



## seancarleton77

With WWE the pay off is never worth it. A great pay per view is as rare as a major superstar these days. At one time Wrestlemania wasn't the only show that promised to deliver and we could actually tell other shows would be great just by the build... what's that you don't know about pay per view build? That's because you've been watching WWE and TNA for too long. Run down indies with vanilla midgets still out perform WWE and TNA even have better pay per view build despite barely being on the air. TNA and WWE do just as many spot fests as PWG (okay maybe not that many) and ROH, the difference is PWG and ROH guys actually hit the spots properly and make a decent match out of a side show.

When I say masterpiece it's often when a quiet Japanese crowd goes ape shit and tops any reaction in TNA or WWE in forever. Gives me All Japan flash backs. To me that is beautiful and better than anything WWE has offered us since Taker vs. Michaels. Good crowds are highly underrated. All you have to do is get the fans emotionally invested and deliver the goods, again something WWE & TNA are forgetting how to do with most matches.


----------



## Alan4L

brandeito said:


> sean i understand you have an opinion but you seriously overrate puro today epecially when you compared kobashi and misawa to shiozaki and nakamura there is no comparision and when you call puro matches masterpieces and they are nowhere close to that


eh, the Kobashi/Misawa stuff isn't always for everyone. I just watched the Oct 1995 tag they had with Kawada and Taue and hated it. Gimme most modern puro over that any day. That said there is ALOT of old puro I like. I really don't care what year something happened in, whether it's 2011, 1993 or 2004, I couldn't care less. If I like a match, I like a match.

and speaking of matches I like!

Updated for 14/2 (New additions in bold) 

Including Dec 2010, Observer style. 

*WWE: *
Royal Rumble (1/30) ****3/4
John Morrison vs. Sheamus (12/19) ****1/4
John Cena vs. Dolph Ziggler (12/20) ****

*Puro: *
Hiroshi Tanahashi vs. Satoshi Kojima (1/4) (NJPW) ****1/2
Prince Devitt vs. Kota Ibushi (1/4) (NJPW) ****1/2
Takashi Sugiura vs. Takeshi Morishima (12/5) (NOAH) ****1/2
Kings Of Wrestling vs. Takayama/Sano (12/5) (NOAH) ****1/2
*Apollo55 vs. Golden Lovers (1/23) (NJPW) ****1/4
YAMATO vs. BxB Hulk (12/26) (DG) ****1/4
Daisuke Sekimoto vs. Ikuto Hidaka (1/1) (Z1) ****1/4 *
KENTA vs. Naomichi Marufuji (12/5) (NOAH) ****1/4
Bad Intentions vs. Blue Justice (12/11) (NJPW) ****1/4
Hiroshi Tanahashi vs. Hirooki Goto (12/11) (NJPW) ****1/4
Satoshi Kojima vs. Shinsuke Nakamura (12/11) (NJPW) ****1/4
Aoki/Marufuji vs. Kanemoto/Tiger Mask (12/24) (NOAH) ****
No Limit vs. Motor City Machine Guns (12/11) (NJPW) ****
*CIMA/Yoshino vs. Doi/Gamma (12/21) (DG) ****
K-neSuka vs. Fujii/Mochizuki (12/21) (DG) ****
Maraha Isappa vs. Mochizuki/Fujii vs. Shingo/Cyber (12/26) (DG) ****
Yoshino/PAC vs. CIMA/Kid (12/5) (DG) ****
Kondo/KAI vs. Doi/Tanisaki (1/24) (DG/AJPW) ****
Taniguchi/Morishima vs. Sasaki/Nakajima (1/29) (NOAH) ****
Eddie Edwards vs. Kotaro Suzuki (1/29) (NOAH) **** *

*PWG: *
*Kevin Steen vs. Akira Tozawa (12/11) ****1/2
Peligro Abejas vs. Kings Of Wrestling (12/11) ****1/4
Young Buck$ vs. Fighting Taylor Boys (12/11) *****


*DGUSA/EVOLVE: *
*PAC/Yoshino vs. Doi/Ricochet (1/29) ****1/4
Akira Tozawa vs. Austin Aries (1/29) ****
Ronin vs. Doi/Ricochet (1/28) ****
Ronin vs. CIMA/Dragon Kid (1/29) ****
Ronin vs. Aries/Horiguchi/Ricochet (1/7 airdate) *****


*ROH: *
Kevin Steen vs. El Generico (Fight Without Honour) (12/18 ) ****3/4
Roderick Strong vs. Davey Richards (12/18 ) ****1/2
All Night Express vs. Cole/O’Reilly (12/18 ) ****


*Other:*
Leaders vs. Peligro Abejas (12/5) (IPW:UK) ****1/2
Eddie Edwards vs. Mark Haskins (12/5) (IPW:UK) ****
*Philly’s Most Wanted vs. The Osirian Portal (12/11) (CZW) *****


----------



## Bubz

Has anyone seen or heard anything about the Tag Title Classic 2 main event? Really looking forward to that.


----------



## Corey

bubz123 said:


> Has anyone seen or heard anything about the Tag Title Classic 2 main event? Really looking forward to that.


I've only seen one review of the show from a guy on youtube, and he gave it ****1/2. It's like a 35 minute match I believe.


----------



## Rickey

Worth a watch---SD Elimination Chamber from EC2011
(there were a LOT of 619s and 619 attemps in this match.)


----------



## The REAL MP

Smackdown chamber match was at least 4 Barrett/McIntyre feuds out of 5. Very fun stuff.


----------



## Bubz

Yeah the EC matches are defo worth checking out.

The smackdown one has gotta be ****


----------



## Corey

*World Heavyweight Championship Elimination Chamber Match
*Edge(c) vs. Rey Mysterio vs. Kane vs. Drew McIntyre vs. Wade Barrett vs. Big Show - ****
_Far exceeded my expectations. Excellent match that really made everyone look strong except Barrett, but who even likes him anyway? The finishing stretch was great, but I feel like people will overrate this based on that sequence, which was really just the same moves over and over. Regardless, match of the night by far. Currently WWE's MOTY._


----------



## The REAL MP

Whatever, I thought Barrett looked like a bad ass. The only guy who I wasn't more impressed with afterward was Big Show.

Agree that the ending was way too finisher-and-kickout heavy though. Felt like an indy match since it hadn't earned the weight of all those kickouts.


----------



## Corey

These days they just tend to have Show take 39 finishers in a row before he's pinned, which works since he's a giant.


----------



## Kapik1337

A 4-star match with Wade Barrett, Drew McIntyre, Big Show and Kane? Won't believe it unless I see it with my own eyes...

OK, I've seen it now.


Spoiler: the match



Wade Barrett... hit a nice pumphandle slam on Mysterio. Other than that, jobbed perfectly to Big Show - like a real jobber. Good job, except he's supposed to look like a main eventer. Big Show... did what he can. Chop-chop-chop-punch-pin on Barrett, then took finisher after finisher from everybody else - that way he both looked strong and made it easy to accept his early elimination. Drew McIntyre... sucks. This guy is boring as fuck. None of his offense was memorable. Kane... was awesome. Looked really dominant, like he should. The multiple-man match format hides his weaknesses rather well. One complaint, though. His elimination wasn't satisfying at all. Edge's spear is unimpressive enough on it's own AND Kane held Rey Mysterio as a shield. This shouldn't have kept Kane down for a 3-count. Rey Mysterio... star of the match. Everything he does, he does well. Need to vary his offense, though. Head scissors - 619 - springboard splash - repeat. These 3 moves are good, but don't really cut it. Edge... looked good. Booked like a champion, probably because he is. Should use moves besides spear, though. All in all, the match was enjoyable. The two best performers started and closed it, the pacing was good, it didn't feel too long.


 ***1/2


----------



## dj161

Del Rio vs Kofi - ***
Raw Chamber - ***1/2
Smackdown Chamber - ****

also Lawler vs Miz wasn't anywhere near as terrible as I was expecting


----------



## seabs

*Edge vs Rey Mysterio vs Kane vs Wade Barrett vs Drew McIntyre vs Big Show - Elimination Chamber Match - World Heavyweight Championship - Elimination Chamber 2011*
_Really suprised at how good this was as it looked quite weak on paper but they managed to make a really exciting match out of it. Match was sorta just chugging along until Drew came in and starting ripping shit up. His rampage of destruction was sooo good. The Barrett and Rey pod spots were awesome too. Show being the suprise entrant was underwhelming but at least I knew it was gonna be a let down of sorts. Show was fine in the match though and the Show/Barrett segment with Show getting Barrett on his own at last was great. Kane getting the monster push rather than Drew or Barrett seemed a massive waste as Kane wont benefit from it one bit. The spear spot to eliminate Kane was nice. The Edge/Rey climax wasn't as good as 09 but it was still really good. The 1st spear kickout was an awesome near fall because it's still a credible finisher somehow. 619 kickout didn't have the same effect as it was obvious after the spear kickout but the final spear looked great and compensated perfectly for the other spear not being enough. Edge looked good without awful booking making him look stupid and Rey looked better than he has in a while. Barrett and Show were good, Kane was meh and Drew was fantastic. Think he might be my favourite guy atm. Was thinking during the match it'd be awesome for him to get a main event push and face guys like Edge, Rey & Taker this year on PPV but then I remembered Ziggler and went back to wanting him on Superstars against guys like Masters, Tatsu, Smith and Goldust. Tons of great spots, all 3 pod spots were awesome and better than anything in the Raw Chamber. WWE MOTY so far. The aftermath with Christian and Del Rio was awesome. Christian going to town on Del Rio was great. Wasn't a fan of the ring crew doing the chamber back up during all of this though but whatever. Wasn't anywhere near as bad as them showing a replay whilst Edge speared Del Rio. I mean everyone knew that spot was coming but the guy in the truck it seemed. I'd be much more interested in a 3 way with Christian than just Edge sv Del Rio. It's not gonna main event and they seem to like doing a big singles main event match and then a 3 way in recent years so it seems likely to happen. 
_

******


----------



## ddog121

Smackdown Chamber ****1/4
Raw Chamber ****

Amazing show last night, even the tag title match wasn't bad. McIntyre and Morrison impressed me the most in the chamber matchers, hope Morrison gets a huge push cause he more than deserves it.


----------



## Sunglasses

SD! Elimination Chamber: ****+

best McIntyre/Mysterio match for a long time.


----------



## Pablo Escobar

I had the SD chamber match at 4.25. This is the best match i've seen the WWE's put on since HBK/Taker at the last WM.


----------



## WillTheBloody

*WWE - Elimination Chamber*
The SmackDown Elimination Chamber - *****1/4*

*Chikara - Chaos in the Sea of Lost Souls*
Eddie Kingston vs. El Generico - ******
QuackenSaw & The Colony vs. The Bruderschaft - ****3/4*


----------



## abv

*WWE - Elimination Chamber smackdown* a ****+ match? ? ??!?! Really? Was it the fact that Kane suddenly forget his recent feud with Edge and barely focus his atacks on him, or the fact that Barrett can barely move or the fact that Mysterio did the same 5 spots he has been doing for years but with slower pace every year? The match was good, but ***1/2 mark is more suitable!


----------



## sXsCanadianFansXs

WWE Elimination Chamber

SD! Chamber: ****1/4
Raw Chamber: Barely ****

I'll echo the awesomeness of McIntyre in the chamber. Edge/Mysterio were the right guys to go the distance as they have good chemistry. Good from start to finish -- and for a 30+ minute match, that's quite the feat.

The Raw chamber wasn't quite as good but between Punk's awesomeness and Morrison's stunts, it was still a quality match.

WWE's best PPV since Money in the Bank.


----------



## SHIRLEY

I can't believe that people are giving the SD chamber 4*+. I had that match down in the 'mindnumbingly boring' category. I guess people are confusing length for quality.

It was the second worst match on a sloppy show, for my money.


----------



## sXsCanadianFansXs

Shirley Crabtree III said:


> I can't believe that people are giving the SD chamber 4*+. I had that match down in the 'mindnumbingly boring' category. I guess people are confusing length for quality.
> 
> It was the second worst match on a sloppy show, for my money.


You're in the vast minority for not liking it.
I guess you're just used to the ADD spotfests on the indy circuit. Therefore you must not understand wrestling psychology which makes you an idiot. /sarcasm

See how easy it is to draw wild conclusions? I wasn't confusing length for quality. It was a good match with good pacing.

I can save us some time though. We're not going to change each others opinions.


----------



## SHIRLEY

sXsCanadianFansXs said:


> It was a good match with good pacing.


Nah, it wasn't. It just felt like a stretched-out list of arbitrary events. Take Mysterio out of the match and it would've been a complete joke.

It's amazing how far standards have dropped. Pedestrian matches with no intensity or intrigue to them pass for MOTYCs now?


----------



## jawbreaker

I would give the Raw chamber ***3/4 and the SD one maybe **. Apart from McIntyre, there was not a worthwhile thing in the SD match.

What really bothers me is that a lot of the same people who call indy matches overrated spotfests and then talk about how good matches like that EC are when in reality the SD EC is just a much less impressive spotfest and people confuse slower pace for psychology. I rarely agree with Crabtree any more, but he put it best, that match was just a sequence of events with little to no story tying anything together. I'm trying to come up with an adjective to describe it other than "bad" but I just can't do it. The match was bad.

The Raw EC actually made sense with the characters and the spots used, and Morrison's selling was magnificent. Unfortunately, Orton can't fucking wrestle and Cena is still Cena.

Also, Kofi-Del Rio was pretty damn good. I think I'm getting back into WWE a bit.


----------



## dele

SmackDown Elimination Chamber - **** 1/2. Great match with a fun story. Each wrestler played their roles well with a fun finisher exchange at the end. Lack of blood kept it from going higher.

Raw Elimination Chamber - ** 3/4. Had tons of potential, yet told absolutely no story. Like a lot of Cena matches, it was just a series of spots until one of Cena's two finishers, and that's what happened here. Most people looked absolutely lost (looking at you, Sheamus); and to be honest, Morrison's in ring work was the bright spot. 
To say that this wrestle mania will be a huge one for Cena is an understatement. After that debacle, I'm forced to question for the first time in nearly a year and a half whether Cena can have a good match with someone *and* manage to get the heel over. Frankly, I'm ready for an absolute burial of Miz.


----------



## Saint Dick

SmackDown Chamber - Elimination Chamber 2/20/11
WWE match of the year so far. Enjoyed it from start to finish and everybody brought something to the match. Rey was really good as usual, Edge gave us his best performance in a long time, Kane's punches were dope, McIntyre's aggression was arguably the highlight of the whole thing, and the Show/Barrett confrontation was a worthy addition. The pod spots were sick too. Awesome stuff. Around the same level of the '09 chambers.


----------



## Violent By Design

Didn't like the Smackdown Elimination Chamber to much.

I felt like this one was just going through the motions. Spot, after spot (spots that I've all seen many a time). I didn't feel any flair, intensity or innovation. I think it was around when everyone was hitting Big Show with their finishers is when I realized how uninspiring the match was. The best part of the match was when Edge and Rey were left, but it wasn't as good as the EC in 2009 where they did the same thing.

The RAW chamber I thought was a lot better. More impressive visually, better stunts and Morrison sold like a champ. The triple threat final with CM Punk, Cena and Morrison was very engaging and enticing. The booking with CM Punk being tropped in the pod was cute, and Sheamus running into the pot to beat down Cena was a nice surprise (also made sense when he tried it against R-Truth and paid the price).

Overall, I just thought the RAW one had more highlights. I really don't remember much from the Smackdown one other than Wade Barret getting tossed through glass. I doubt that by the end of the year, anyone will be remembering these matches.


----------



## SHIRLEY

Violent By Design said:


> just going through the motions


That phrase perfectly sums up people like Kane, Big Show, Edge and co. right now.


----------



## Boom Baby

SD EC ****


----------



## Emperor DC

The SD Chamber match was fun, nothing more, nothing less. Kane and McIntyre were by far the stars of it, McIntyre especially.


----------



## Alan4L

HOLY CRAP!!!!!!!

KAZ VS. MINORU WAS FUCKING UNBELIEVABLE!!!!!!!

Puro MOTY so far EASILY!!!!

an absolute masterpiece of a professional wrestling match. Maybe my favourite Minoru Tanaka match ever, and he is one of my ALL TIME FAVOURITE WRESTLERS, so that says alot coming from me. As for Kaz this was right up there with his 2006 classic with Kondo.

God this was great. They were so fluid in everything they did, the nearfalls were nuts, the strikes were all perfectly timed and the finish was just incredibly dramatic.

I wanna watch this match again RIGHT NOW!

****3/4


----------



## Sunglasses

lol.

Hayashi vs Minoru was okay, but nothing special. Typical high-impact-move-overkill to the end which also killed the crowd.. -_- and THEN Minoru wins with his armbreaker after hayashi killed him with 4-5 moves right on his head.. no no no. ****3/4* but NEVER EVER **** or more.


----------



## Alan4L

Sunglasses said:


> ****3/4* but NEVER EVER ****


do you not see the humour in that comment?


"sir, I want your hat. I will pay you for it. I figure it is worth £3.75 but it is absolutely NOT, NEVER EVER worth £4"


----------



## Tarfu

Alan4L said:


> do you not see the humour in that comment?
> 
> 
> "sir, I want your hat. I will pay you for it. I figure it is worth £3.75 but it is absolutely NOT, NEVER EVER worth £4"


And this, kids, is why star ratings are for ****. Mostly.


----------



## rafz

WWE Elimination Chamber
_Edge vs. Rey Mysterio vs. Kane vs. Wade Barrett vs. Drew McIntyre vs. Big Show - Elimination Chamber Match - _*****1/4*


----------



## WenchMan

Have to agree that Kaz vs Minoru was Awesome.

I give it ****


----------



## Sunglasses

Alan4L said:


> do you not see the humour in that comment?
> 
> 
> "sir, I want your hat. I will pay you for it. I figure it is worth £3.75 but it is absolutely NOT, NEVER EVER worth £4"


It's like from cheap to expensive, so it is here. Matches I rate with 4* or higher are good and better. Under 4* its okay, but you don't have to watch it. Okay?


----------



## Alan4L

Sunglasses said:


> It's like from cheap to expensive, so it is here. Matches I rate with 4* or higher are good and better. Under 4* its okay, but you don't have to watch it. Okay?


it's a scale though dude. So the idea would be that the difference between 3.5 and 3.75 would be the exact same as the difference between 3.75 and 4.

every quarter star jump should be the same otherwise you're just throwing out arbitrary numbers (which one could argue is all we're doing anyway, haha).


----------



## Bubz

The SD chamber match was a very fun match IMO. I don't really know how to rate those type of matches, much like the rumble match, but i thought McIntyre was good, Kane put on an awesome performance and i enjoyed the end with Edge and Rey.

The Raw chamber match was decent and Punk really stood out but thats about it.


----------



## ddog121

I'm siding with Mr. Alan4L, I loved Minoru v. Hayashi ****1/2


----------



## seabs

*Didn't think Kaz/Minoru was MOTYC material. It was a decent match, ***1/4-1/2 range. The beginning and middle had way too much Kaz offense and Minoru never really looked legit in terms of ending Hayashi's monster reign. Plus Kaz threw a lot of his big moves out there with no meaning.*


----------



## seancarleton77

Minoru vs. Kaz was pretty decent 70% for me.


----------



## WenchMan

Angle vs Jarrett - Against All Odds ***3/4

Loved seeing Angle lose it on Jeff after Karen slapped him..


----------



## milkman7

I just watched my first match from 2011, and I really am surprised nobody else is talking about it.

My moty list (so far)

1. The Miz vs Jerry Lawler - WWE Elimination Chamber


----------



## starship.paint

milkman7 said:


> I just watched my first match from 2011, and I really am surprised nobody else is talking about it.
> 
> My moty list (so far)
> 
> 1. The Miz vs Jerry Lawler - WWE Elimination Chamber


Erm. Technically the first match you watched in 2011 has to be number one no matter what match it was... perhaps no one's talking about it because it was overshadowed by the Smackdown Elimination Chamber match on the same PPV?


----------



## milkman7

Haha. I realize how stupid my post looks, but I only put that as the start as my list because it will probably stay on my list for at least the next six months.


----------



## Alan4L

Seabs said:


> *Didn't think Kaz/Minoru was MOTYC material. It was a decent match, ***1/4-1/2 range. The beginning and middle had way too much Kaz offense and Minoru never really looked legit in terms of ending Hayashi's monster reign.*


That was something I liked about it. It was akin to Joe/Aries - the champ was dominating the match and it looked like Minoru was gonna be a run of the mill defense and then he just comes to life and turns the match on it's head with flurries of bigtime offense that leave Kaz reeling.


----------



## Speedy McGee

milkman7 said:


> I just watched my first match from 2011, and I really am surprised nobody else is talking about it.
> 
> My moty list (so far)
> 
> 1. The Miz vs Jerry Lawler - WWE Elimination Chamber


I really enjoyed The Miz vs. Jerry Lawler. It wasn't a MOTY match, but it was really good considering the people who were involved. I'll even go as far and say that it was better then their TLC match a couple of monthes ago. I'll probably give it *** stars


----------



## jawbreaker

Jerry Lawler was in a TLC match?


----------



## Sunglasses

@RAW against The Miz in a WWE Title Match


----------



## milkman7

The Miz is very average, but Jerry Lawler is still really good. He throws great punches. and if I gave stars I would probably have given their match at Elimination Chamber ****. I watched the Smackdown chamber match, and Rey killed himself with some amazing bumps, and the first couple minutes after Drew McIntyre was released from his chamber were awesome, but overall I didn't care for it.


----------



## Bubz

Miz vs Lawler was better than anyone in the world thought it would be. Quite enjoyable and lawler can still go.


----------



## milkman7

I really like the superplex where lawler pretty much turned it into like a falcon arrow thing. It makes more sense than just falling on your back too. I know he just did it because a bump like that would kill him, but still.


----------



## seabs

jawbreaker said:


> Jerry Lawler was in a TLC match?


*You haven't seen it? Oh man you need to. For a Miz vs Jerry Lawler TLC Match on Raw it's unbelievable.*


----------



## milkman7

Watched the Smackdown chamber again, liked it a lot more this time.

MOTY List

1. The Miz vs Jerry Lawler - WWE Championship Match - WWE 2/20/11
2. Edge vs Rey Mysterio vs Wade Barrett vs Drew McIntyre vs Kane vs The Big Show - World Championship Elimination Chamber Match - WWE 2/20/11


----------



## SHIRLEY

Miz vs. Lawler was a good match. Lawler made sure that it made sense.


----------



## silver kyle

*WWE Elimination Chamber 2011*

*Alberto Del Rio vs. Kofi Kingston ***1/2*

*Smackdown Elimination Chamber ***** 
My current match of the year. although I've only been following WWE and a few Japan matches this year.

*RAW Elimination Chamber ***3/4* 
Too bad the crowd was really dead at some points. Although it was kind of the performers faults since the crowd would seem to die off whenever they slowed down. It's like the wrestlers were just waiting for certain spots. Having Cena and Punk go all out for another 5 or so minutes like HHH and Undertaker did a few years back could have really added to the match as well.


----------



## milkman7

The Raw elimination chamber waaaaaaaaayayayayayaayay better than the Smackdown chamber.

MOTY list
1. John Morrison vs King Sheamus vs John Cena vs Randy Orton vs R-Truth vs CM Punk - Elimination Chamber Match - WWE 2/20/11
2. The Miz vs Jerry Lawler - WWE Championship Match - WWE 2/20/11
3. Edge vs Rey Mysterio vs Wade Barrett vs Kane vs The Big Show vs Drew McIntyre - World Heavyweight Championship Elimination Chamber Match - WWE 2/20/11


----------



## Speedy McGee

In my opinon the Smackdown Elimination Chamber match was the 2nd best EC match behind the original EC match at Survivor Series 2002. It told a really great story, has nice flow to it, and had a lot of memorable moments. The Raw Elimination Chamber was a great match too, but it didn't have the story/flow that the Smackdown match had. I will say that the Raw EC match had a lot of great spots.


----------



## Boom Baby

Minoru vs Hayashi ****1/4


----------



## jawbreaker

Seabs said:


> *You haven't seen it? Oh man you need to. For a Miz vs Jerry Lawler TLC Match on Raw it's unbelievable.*


I haven't seen anything WWE has done since the 2010 Rumble except the MITB PPV, and this year's Rumble and EC. I think I'll check that out.


----------



## Corey

*ROH 9th Anniversary Show*

*ROH World Television Championship - 2 out of 3 Falls
*Christopher Daniels(c) vs. Eddie Edwards - ****1/2
_This was just downright brilliant. Fantastic wrestling, awesome spots, and great storytelling. Right up there with the ironman matches AJ and Daniels had in TNA several years back. A must see and easily my current MOTY._

The Briscoes vs. Charlie Haas & Shelton Benjamin - ****


----------



## KingKicks

*ROH 9th Anniversary Show*

Christopher Daniels vs. Eddie Edwards ******


----------



## milkman7

Ángel de Oro, Diamante, Rush v. Metal Blanco, Palacio *****, Sagrado - CMLL 1/2/11

The first two falls are standard fare. The third fall we get dives. A lot of dives. What I really like about the dives is that they aren't all that smooth. For some reason I like that sometimes.

MOTY List

1. John Morrison vs King Sheamus vs Randy Orton vs R-Truth vs CM Punk vs John Cena - Elimination Chamber Match - WWE 2/20/11
2. Jerry Lawler vs The Miz - WWE Championship Match - WWE 2/20/11
3. Edge vs Rey Mysterio vs Drew McIntyre vs Wade Barrett vs The Big Show vs Kane - World Heavyweight Championship Elimination Chamber Match - WWE 2/20/11
4. Ángel de Oro, Diamante, Rush v. Metal Blanco, Palacio *****, Sagrado - CMLL 1/2/11


----------



## Bubz

Okay, did'nt know if if i should include this in this years thread or last years, but...

*ROH Tag Title Classic 2 - KOW vs American Wolves ****1/4*
This was pretty awesome for the full 35 minutes it was on and everyone looked great. The best KOW defense so far. Great spots and great action, pretty much what i expected.


----------



## EffectRaven

Jack Evans 187 said:


> *ROH 9th Anniversary Show*
> 
> *ROH World Television Championship - 2 out of 3 Falls
> *Christopher Daniels(c) vs. Eddie Edwards - ****1/2
> _This was just downright brilliant. Fantastic wrestling, awesome spots, and great storytelling. Right up there with the ironman matches AJ and Daniels had in TNA several years back. A must see and easily my current MOTY._
> 
> The Briscoes vs. Charlie Haas & Shelton Benjamin - ****


Absolutely agreed on both ratings

I also gotta give ANX vs. KOW a shout out ****1/2-***3/4*


----------



## seancarleton77

Eddie Edwards vs. Christopher Daniels is my current match of the year. Eddie is better than Davey now.


----------



## Caponex75

seancarleton77 said:


> Eddie Edwards vs. Christopher Daniels is my current match of the year. Eddie is better than Davey now.


Err.........wouldn't say that. Would say that Eddie has improved like a mutha though.


----------



## milkman7

Ángel Azteca Jr. / Ángel de Oro / Ángel de Plata vs. Cancerbero / Raziel / Virus - CMLL 02.04.2011

Shining example of why lucha libre is awesome.

EDIT: Eddie Edwards vs Kotaro Suzuki - GHC Jr. Heavyweight Championship Match - NOAH 1/29/11
Had its flaws, but overall it ended up being enjoyable enough.

MOTY LIST

1. John Morrison vs King Sheamus vs Randy Orton vs R-Truth vs CM Punk vs John Cena - Elimination Chamber Match - WWE 2/20/11
2. Jerry Lawler vs The Miz - WWE Championship Match - WWE 2/20/11
3. Ángel Azteca Jr. / Ángel de Oro / Ángel de Plata vs Cancerbero / Raziel / Virus - CMLL 02/04/11
4. Edge vs Rey Mysterio vs Drew McIntyre vs Wade Barrett vs The Big Show vs Kane - World Heavyweight Championship Elimination Chamber Match - WWE 2/20/11
5. Ángel de Oro / Diamante / Rush vs Metal Blanco / Palacio ***** / Sagrado - CMLL 1/2/11
6. Eddie Edwards vs Kotaro Suzuki - GHC Jr. Heavyweight Championship Match - NOAH 1/29/11


----------



## Bubz

seancarleton77 said:


> Eddie Edwards vs. Christopher Daniels is my current match of the year. Eddie is better than Davey now.


I would'nt say hes better than Davey yet. He is great though and he's getting there. Still need to see that match though, looking forward to it.


----------



## dele

BJW 1/2/11 

Daisuke Sekimoto vs Yuji Okabayashi

****


----------



## seabs

*Eddie Edwards vs Christopher Daniels - ROH 9th Anniversary Show*
_****1/4_


----------



## antoniomare007

dele said:


> BJW 1/2/11
> 
> Daisuke Sekimoto vs Yuji Okabayashi
> 
> ****


was just about to post this, agree on the rating.


----------



## sXsCanadianFansXs

ROH 9th Anniversary:

Davey Richards vs. Colt Cabana ***1/2
Four Corner Survival **3/4ish
Michael Elgin vs. El Generico ***ish
Ring of Honor World Championship: Street Fight: Roderick Strong (c) vs. Homicide **1/2

Sara Del Rey vs. MsChif *
Ring of Honor Tag Team Championships: Kings of Wrestling (c) vs. All Night Express ***3/4 (Breakout match for Titus + King. Flubbed finish doesn't bring the quality of the match down for me).
Ring of Honor TV Champinship: 2 out of 3 falls: Eddie Edwards (c) vs. Christopher Daniels ****
Briscoes vs. Charlie Haas + Shelton Benjamin ***3/4+. 

All things considered, a good show. A disappointing iPPV but a solid one when compared with other companies.


----------



## Bubz

*ROH 9th Anniversary Show - Eddie Edwards vs Christopher Daniels ****1/2*

This was awesome! Both men looked great and they both showed real aggresion when they where on offense which was great as it made the match seem even more important. Eddie looked awesome in this and no, not just because he was in there with Daniels. He improves every time i see him. This is the MOTY easy for me.

Davey/Cabanna was a great opener and it was cool seeing Davey in a lesser profile match as it showed he does'nt always have to go all out - ***1/2

KOW/ANX was a really good tag title match, the finish was awkward, but that did'nt really hurt it for me and the ANX looked awesome - ***3/4

Briscoes/WGTT was another really good tag match but not as good as the title match. i'd go ***1/2

The other matches where decent apart from the womens match and Generico/Elgin was good.

A very good show overall


----------



## milkman7

Yoshihiro Takayama vs KENTA - NOAH 1/15/11

These guys bring it.

MOTY LIST
1. John Morrison vs King Sheamus vs Randy Orton vs R-Truth vs CM Punk vs John Cena - Elimination Chamber Match - WWE 2/20/11
2. Jerry Lawler vs The Miz - WWE Championship Match - WWE 2/20/11
3. Yoshihiro Takayama vs KENTA - NOAH 1/15/11
4. Ángel Azteca Jr. / Ángel de Oro / Ángel de Plata vs Cancerbero / Raziel / Virus - CMLL 02/04/11
5. Edge vs Rey Mysterio vs Drew McIntyre vs Wade Barrett vs The Big Show vs Kane - World Heavyweight Championship Elimination Chamber Match - WWE 2/20/11
6. Ángel de Oro / Diamante / Rush vs Metal Blanco / Palacio ***** / Sagrado - CMLL 1/2/11
7. Eddie Edwards vs Kotaro Suzuki - GHC Jr. Heavyweight Championship Match - NOAH 1/29/11


----------



## Boom Baby

dele said:


> BJW 1/2/11
> 
> Daisuke Sekimoto vs Yuji Okabayashi
> 
> ****


+1


----------



## milkman7

The Miz vs John Morrison - WWE Championship Falls Count Anywhere Match - WWE 1/3/11
The Big Show vs Cody Rhodes vs Dolph Ziggler vs Drew McIntyre - Fatal Four Way Match - WWE 1/7/11
Alberto Del Rio vs Rey Mysterio - Two Out of Three Falls Match - WWE 1/7/11
John Cena vs CM Punk - WWE 2/14/11
The Miz vs Daniel Bryan - WWE 2/14/11

Great stuff here, especially for being on free tv.

MOTYC List
Ángel de Oro / Diamante / Rush vs Metal Blanco / Palacio ***** / Sagrado - CMLL 1/2/11
The Miz vs John Morrison - WWE Championship Falls Count Anywhere Match - WWE 1/3/11
The Big Show vs Cody Rhodes vs Dolph Ziggler vs Drew McIntyre - Fatal Four Way Match - WWE 1/7/11
Alberto Del Rio vs Rey Mysterio - Two Out of Three Falls Match - WWE 1/7/11
Yoshihiro Takayama vs KENTA - NOAH 1/15/11
Ángel Azteca Jr. / Ángel de Oro / Ángel de Plata vs Cancerbero / Raziel / Virus - CMLL 02/04/11
John Cena vs CM Punk - WWE 2/14/11
The Miz vs Daniel Bryan - WWE 2/14/11
Edge vs Rey Mysterio vs Drew McIntyre vs Wade Barrett vs The Big Show vs Kane - World Heavyweight Championship Elimination Chamber Match - WWE 2/20/11
Jerry Lawler vs The Miz - WWE Championship Match - WWE 2/20/11
John Morrison vs King Sheamus vs Randy Orton vs R-Truth vs CM Punk vs John Cena - Elimination Chamber Match - WWE 2/20/11


----------



## Sunglasses

ROH 9th Anniversary - TV Title, 2/3 Falls - Christopher Daniels vs. Eddie Edwards: *****1/4*

Best singles match so far, I think.


----------



## Corey

So with the first two months of the year up I decided to rewatch a lot of stuff to really get my list in order, and it's shrinkened quite a bit. I bumped Edge/Ziggler down to ***3/4, still a great match but not quite on the motyc level. Also bumped Briscoes/WGTT down as well. Seemed much slower on the 2nd viewing and like Seabs has said, they really didn't do anything that special or out of the ordinary. Very good match, but again, just not there. So here's my short, official list thus far:

1. Two out of Three Falls: Christoper Daniels vs. Eddie Edwards (ROH 9th Anniversary Show) - ****1/2
2. Elimination Chamber: Edge vs. Rey Mysterio vs. Drew McIntyre vs. Kane vs. Big Show vs. Wade Barrett (WWE Elimination Chamber) - ****


----------



## Legend

Christopher Daniels vs. Eddie Edwards - 2/3 Falls - ROH World TV Championship - ROH 9th Anniversary Show
_**** 1/2_


----------



## Groovemachine

Christopher Daniels vs. Eddie Edwards - ROH 9th Anniversary Show - **** 1/4


----------



## milkman7

Black Terry / Dr. Cerebro / Cerebro ***** vs Yack / El Hijo del Diablo / Avisman - IWRG 1/6/11

The first fall starts out with some matwork, considering this is IWRG I thought it could have been a little better for the first couple minutes, but it picked up when Black Terry got in there. The second fall is where it really picks up, more specifically the time period right before it ends and then we have a wild brawl on our hands, a really fun wild brawl.

Black Terry / ***** Navarro vs El Apache / Angel Imortal - IWRG 1/9/11

Current MOTY. Seamless transition from matwork to frustrated matwork to brawl. I really loved ***** Navarro's kidney punch. Even the heel miscommunication spot worked well to add to the finish.

John Cena vs CM Punk - WWE 1/17/11

Punk and Cena know how to work each other.

Christopher Daniels vs Eddie Edwards - ROH TV Championship Two Out of Three Falls Match - ROH 2/26/11
Not as good as it is being advertised on this forum, but still an enjoyable match. 

EDIT: Black Terry / ***** Navarro vs El Apache / Angel Imortal - IWRG 1/16/11

New MOTY. Better than their match a week earlier. This could be my MOTY for a long, long time. A Black Terry vs Jerry Lawler blood fued would be awesome.

*What to Watch in 2011*
Ángel de Oro / Diamante / Rush vs Metal Blanco / Palacio ***** / Sagrado - CMLL 1/2/11
The Miz vs John Morrison - WWE Championship Falls Count Anywhere Match - WWE 1/3/11
Black Terry / Dr. Cerebro / Cerebro ***** vs Yack / El Hijo del Diablo / Avisman - IWRG 1/6/11
The Big Show vs Cody Rhodes vs Dolph Ziggler vs Drew McIntyre - Fatal Four Way Match - WWE 1/7/11
Alberto Del Rio vs Rey Mysterio - Two Out of Three Falls Match - WWE 1/7/11
Black Terry / ***** Navarro vs El Apache / Angel Imortal - IWRG 1/9/11
Yoshihiro Takayama vs KENTA - NOAH 1/15/11
Black Terry / ***** Navarro vs El Apache / Angel Imortal - IWRG 1/16/11
John Cena vs CM Punk - WWE 1/17/11
Ángel Azteca Jr. / Ángel de Oro / Ángel de Plata vs Cancerbero / Raziel / Virus - CMLL 02/04/11
John Cena vs CM Punk - WWE 2/14/11
The Miz vs Daniel Bryan - WWE 2/14/11
Edge vs Rey Mysterio vs Drew McIntyre vs Wade Barrett vs The Big Show vs Kane - World Heavyweight Championship Elimination Chamber Match - WWE 2/20/11
Jerry Lawler vs The Miz - WWE Championship Match - WWE 2/20/11
John Morrison vs King Sheamus vs Randy Orton vs R-Truth vs CM Punk vs John Cena - Elimination Chamber Match - WWE 2/20/11
Christopher Daniels vs Eddie Edwards - ROH TV Championship Two Out of Three Falls Match - ROH 2/26/11


----------



## dj161

ROH 9th Anniversary Show

Davey Richards vs Colt Cabana - ***
Kings Of Wrestling vs All Night Express - ***1/2
Christopher Daniels vs Eddie Edwards - ****1/4
The Briscoes vs Haas and Benjamin - ***3/4


----------



## New Blood

Jerry Lawler vs. Bill Dundee [SAW 1/29]
Who knew a matchup that's been running since the late 70s could still be great? For those who don't know, Lawler has been doing indie dates on the side of WWE since he first got employed by them. These guys go out to a really good size indie crowd in Nashville and tear the house down in a nice short brawl. Both guys can still throw some nasty looking punches and yes, Lawler does put down the strap and hits a great piledriver.


----------



## milkman7

New Blood said:


> Jerry Lawler vs. Bill Dundee [SAW 1/29]
> Who knew a matchup that's been running since the late 70s could still be great? For those who don't know, Lawler has been doing indie dates on the side of WWE since he first got employed by them. These guys go out to a really good size indie crowd in Nashville and tear the house down in a nice short brawl. Both guys can still throw some nasty looking punches and yes, Lawler does put down the strap and hits a great piledriver.


Oh man, where that be found?


Jerry Lawler vs John Cena vs John Morrison vs King Sheamus vs CM Punk vs R-Truth vs Randy Orton - RAW Rumble Match - WWE 1/31/11

Might be my favorite battle royal type match in a long time. It might be because I always find myself rooting for Jerry Lawler.


What to Watch in 2011
Ángel de Oro / Diamante / Rush vs Metal Blanco / Palacio ***** / Sagrado - CMLL 1/2/11
The Miz vs John Morrison - WWE Championship Falls Count Anywhere Match - WWE 1/3/11
Black Terry / Dr. Cerebro / Cerebro ***** vs Yack / El Hijo del Diablo / Avisman - IWRG 1/6/11
The Big Show vs Cody Rhodes vs Dolph Ziggler vs Drew McIntyre - Fatal Four Way Match - WWE 1/7/11
Alberto Del Rio vs Rey Mysterio - Two Out of Three Falls Match - WWE 1/7/11
Black Terry / ***** Navarro vs El Apache / Angel Imortal - IWRG 1/9/11
Yoshihiro Takayama vs KENTA - NOAH 1/15/11
Black Terry / ***** Navarro vs El Apache / Angel Imortal - IWRG 1/16/11
John Cena vs CM Punk - WWE 1/17/11
Jerry Lawler vs John Cena vs John Morrison vs King Sheamus vs CM Punk vs R-Truth vs Randy Orton - RAW Rumble Match - WWE 1/31/11
Ángel Azteca Jr. / Ángel de Oro / Ángel de Plata vs Cancerbero / Raziel / Virus - CMLL 02/04/11
John Cena vs CM Punk - WWE 2/14/11
The Miz vs Daniel Bryan - WWE 2/14/11
Edge vs Rey Mysterio vs Drew McIntyre vs Wade Barrett vs The Big Show vs Kane - World Heavyweight Championship Elimination Chamber Match - WWE 2/20/11
Jerry Lawler vs The Miz - WWE Championship Match - WWE 2/20/11
John Morrison vs King Sheamus vs Randy Orton vs R-Truth vs CM Punk vs John Cena - Elimination Chamber Match - WWE 2/20/11
Christopher Daniels vs Eddie Edwards - ROH TV Championship Two Out of Three Falls Match - ROH 2/26/11


----------



## seabs

*Roderick Strong vs Jay Briscoe - ROH World Championship - ROH Only The Strong Will Survive*
_****_

*El Generico vs Eddie Kingston - CHIKARA Chaos In The Sea Of Lost Souls*
_****_


----------



## sXsCanadianFansXs

Making my way through the first two RoH shows. 

Christopher Daniels vs. Claudio Castagnoli (Only the Strong Survive) ****
The sleeper match of the weekend. I didn't care for the Mike Bennett interference nor do I think the semi-botched BME took away from the action beforehand. Just crisp, great wrestling.

Davey/Hero next.


----------



## Corey

*Chikara - Chaos In The Sea of Lost Souls*

Eddie Kingston vs. El Generico - ****
_Great back and forths match. Currently #3 on my list._


----------



## SuperDuperSonic

Someone please upload Daniels vs. Claudio.


----------



## Shock

superdupersonic said:


> Someone please upload Daniels vs. Claudio.


The Only The Strong Survive show as a whole has been uploaded, so maybe you should try downloading that.


----------



## seabs

sXsCanadianFansXs said:


> Making my way through the first two RoH shows.
> 
> Christopher Daniels vs. Claudio Castagnoli (Only the Strong Survive) ****
> The sleeper match of the weekend. I didn't care for the Mike Bennett interference nor do I think the semi-botched BME took away from the action beforehand. Just crisp, great wrestling.
> 
> Davey/Hero next.


*Forgot to talk about this when I was going through the shows in the DVD thread. It was good, very good actually but I didn't think it was MOTYC great. I'd take Strong/Briscoe and King/O'Reilly over it personally. The botched BME looked like it really hurt Claudio which was such bad luck considering how safe a worker Daniels is to work with.*


----------



## milkman7

Dr. Cerebro vs Comando ***** - IWRG Intercontinental Lightweight Championship Match - IWRG 1/30/11

Great matwork.

Dr. Cerebro / ***** Navarro / Multifacetico vs MAZADA / El Apache / Comando ***** - IWRG 1/23/11

Fuego / Stuka / Ángel De Plata / Rey Cometa / Dragón Lee / Hombre Bala, Jr. vs Virus / Doctor X / Puma King / Demus 3:16 / Hijo Del Signo / Durango Kid - Torneo Cibernetico Match - CMLL 2/8/11
Even people who dislike lucha should check this out. Great stuff.

What to Watch in 2011
Ángel de Oro / Diamante / Rush vs Metal Blanco / Palacio ***** / Sagrado - CMLL 1/2/11
The Miz vs John Morrison - WWE Championship Falls Count Anywhere Match - WWE 1/3/11
Black Terry / Dr. Cerebro / Cerebro ***** vs Yack / El Hijo del Diablo / Avisman - IWRG 1/6/11
The Big Show vs Cody Rhodes vs Dolph Ziggler vs Drew McIntyre - Fatal Four Way Match - WWE 1/7/11
Alberto Del Rio vs Rey Mysterio - Two Out of Three Falls Match - WWE 1/7/11
Black Terry / ***** Navarro vs El Apache / Angel Imortal - IWRG 1/9/11
Yoshihiro Takayama vs KENTA - NOAH 1/15/11
Black Terry / ***** Navarro vs El Apache / Angel Imortal - IWRG 1/16/11
John Cena vs CM Punk - WWE 1/17/11
Dr. Cerebro / ***** Navarro / Multifacetico vs MAZADA / El Apache / Comando ***** - IWRG 1/23/11
Dr. Cerebro vs Comando ***** - IWRG Intercontinental Lightweight Championship Match - IWRG 1/30/11
Jerry Lawler vs John Cena vs John Morrison vs King Sheamus vs CM Punk vs R-Truth vs Randy Orton - RAW Rumble Match - WWE 1/31/11
Ángel Azteca Jr. / Ángel de Oro / Ángel de Plata vs Cancerbero / Raziel / Virus - CMLL 02/04/11
Fuego / Stuka / Ángel De Plata / Rey Cometa / Dragón Lee / Hombre Plata, Jr. vs Virus / Doctor X / Puma King / Demus 3:16 / Hijo Del Signo / Durango Kid - Torneo Ciberbnetico Match - CMLL 2/8/11
John Cena vs CM Punk - WWE 2/14/11
The Miz vs Daniel Bryan - WWE 2/14/11
Edge vs Rey Mysterio vs Drew McIntyre vs Wade Barrett vs The Big Show vs Kane - World Heavyweight Championship Elimination Chamber Match - WWE 2/20/11
Jerry Lawler vs The Miz - WWE Championship Match - WWE 2/20/11
John Morrison vs King Sheamus vs Randy Orton vs R-Truth vs CM Punk vs John Cena - Elimination Chamber Match - WWE 2/20/11
Christopher Daniels vs Eddie Edwards - ROH TV Championship Two Out of Three Falls Match - ROH 2/26/11


----------



## sXsCanadianFansXs

ROH Champions vs. All Stars:

-Kenny King vs. Kyle O'Reilly ***3/4
-Champions vs. All Stars ***3/4

Only the Strong Survive:

-Daniels/Castagnoli ****
-Richards/Hero ***3/4
-Briscoe/Strong ****

A good weekend for RoH.


----------



## antoniomare007

*El Generico vs Eddie Kingston - Chaos In The Sea of Lost Souls*




























1/4

Great (and brutal) back and forth match. Holy shit at that brainbuster on the apron and the final sequence. Eddie's pre-match promo was awesome too.


----------



## Corey

*ROH - Only The Strong Survive*

*ROH Television Championship
*Christopher Daniels(c) vs. Claudio Castagnoli - ****
_I've been watching Daniels wrestle for years now and I've just never been a big fan of his, always thought he was average. In the sense that he never did anything special, just kinda played it safe. But watching his matches from this year have made me become a huge fan. He's stepped his game up tremendously since his return to the company and I applaud him for that. He's got my early vote for wrestler of the year right now. Oh and this was a great match by the way. Don't think the botched BME hurt it, but I hated the Bennett interference. I'd completely forgotten he was even at ringside until he came up on the apron, then I was like fuck you. Check this match out though, real good stuff._

*ROH World Championship
*Roderick Strong(c) vs. Jay Briscoe - ****
_"Man up, motherfucker!" Brutally stiff match as you'd expect from the two. Briscoe's nearfalls were incredibly believable, which is definitely something you like to see_


----------



## kwjr86

My Current MOTY Candidates(**** or higher)

1.	ROH Only The Strong Survive : 01/15/2011 : Davey Richards vs. Chris Hero : ****¼

2.	ROH Only The Strong Survive : 01/15/2011 : Jay Briscoe vs. Roderick Strong : ****¼

3.	ROH 9th Anniversary Show : 02/26/11 : Eddie Edwards vs. Christopher Daniels : ****¼ 

4.	WWE Elimination Chamber :0 2/20/11 : Edge vs. Rey Mysterio vs. Drew McIntyre vs. Wade Barrett vs. The Big Show vs. Kane : ****¼ 

5.	WWE Raw : 01/03/11 : The Miz vs. John Morrison : **** 

6.	ROH 9th Anniversary Show : 02/26/11 : The Briscoes vs. The World’s Greatest Tag Team : ****

7.	ROH Champions vs. All Stars : 01/15/2011 : The Kings of Wrestling, Roderick Strong and Christopher Daniels vs. Davey Richards, The Briscoes and El Generico: ****

8.	ROH Only The Strong Survive : 01/15/2011 : Christopher Daniels vs. Claudio Castagnoli: ****

9.	WWE Elimination Chamber : 02/20/11 : John Morrison vs. King Sheamus vs. Randy Orton vs. R-Truth vs. CM Punk vs. John Cena : ****


----------



## sXsCanadianFansXs

dele said:


> BJW 1/2/11
> 
> Daisuke Sekimoto vs Yuji Okabayashi
> 
> ****


is this on the site?


----------



## Corey

sXsCanadianFansXs said:


> is this on the site?


Seabs 2011 MOTYC megapost. Under megaposts in the media section.


----------



## Bubz

*ROH Only The Strong Survive - Davey Richards vs Chris Hero *****

Okay, this is a hard one. The first 25 minutes are awesome, the last 5 are fucking ridiculous. This is the only time i have actualy been bothered by Davey's selling. He gets rolling elbowed 4 or 5 times, booted in the face about 8 times, rolling elbowed WITHOUT AN ELBOW PAD!!!! and then proceeds to fuck it all off and spring right back up to hit a series of high riskish moves and win the match! He is supposed to have suffered a serious concussion at Final Battle, Hero should have won, if not, a suprise win for Davey like a sneaky roll up or something of the sort. It fucks me off when people make Hero's strikes mean nothing, in the PWG match last year it was fine, but this time was just complete overkill, how are we supposed to believe he can win with an elbow when it takes 245 to knock a man with a freakin consussion out. I love Davey but comon mate, that was silly.

Apart from the last part, the match was going along pretty awesome. Hero sold the arm well by hardly using it at all, and when he went to he changed up the moves like the elbows and the stretch plumb. The guy is awesome.


----------



## sXsCanadianFansXs

Jack Evans 187 said:


> Seabs 2011 MOTYC megapost. Under megaposts in the media section.


Thanks.

Kaz Hayashi vs. Minoru ****
I loved the beginning and end of this match. The middle had a bit of the japanese strong style (no sell) that I hate but this one exceeded my expectations.


----------



## milkman7

Black Terry vs Ángel Mortal - Hair vs Hair Match - IWRG 1/23/11

Black Terry, Jr. is my hero. He films all these IWRG shows that we wouldn't get to see, but because he does I get see four star stuff every weekend.

Togi Makabe vs Masato Tanaka - NJPW 1/4/11

I felt like this match might have already given us the two of the top three table spots of the entire year.

Yuji Nagata vs Minoru Suzuki - NJPW 1/4/11

I hate the Nagata face, but everything else was pretty solid.


*What to Watch in 2011*
- Ángel de Oro / Diamante / Rush vs Metal Blanco / Palacio ***** / Sagrado - CMLL 1/2/11
- The Miz vs John Morrison - WWE Championship Falls Count Anywhere Match - WWE 1/3/11
- Togi Makabe vs Masato Tanaka - NJPW 1/4/11
- Yuji Nagata vs Minoru Suzuki - NJPW 1/4/11
- Black Terry / Dr. Cerebro / Cerebro ***** vs Yack / El Hijo del Diablo / Avisman - IWRG 1/6/11
- The Big Show vs Cody Rhodes vs Dolph Ziggler vs Drew McIntyre - Fatal Four Way Match - WWE 1/7/11
- Alberto Del Rio vs Rey Mysterio - Two Out of Three Falls Match - WWE 1/7/11
- Black Terry / ***** Navarro vs El Apache / Angel Mortal - IWRG 1/9/11
- Yoshihiro Takayama vs KENTA - NOAH 1/15/11
- Black Terry / ***** Navarro vs El Apache / Angel Mortal - IWRG 1/16/11
- John Cena vs CM Punk - WWE 1/17/11
- Dr. Cerebro / ***** Navarro / Multifacetico vs MAZADA / El Apache / Comando ***** - IWRG 1/23/11
- Black Terry vs Ángel Mortal - Hair vs Hair Match - IWRG 1/23/11
- Dr. Cerebro vs Comando ***** - IWRG Intercontinental Lightweight Championship Match - IWRG 1/30/11
-Jerry Lawler vs John Cena vs John Morrison vs King Sheamus vs CM Punk vs R-Truth vs Randy Orton - RAW Rumble Match - WWE 1/31/11
- Ángel Azteca Jr. / Ángel de Oro / Ángel de Plata vs Cancerbero / Raziel / Virus - CMLL 02/04/11
- Fuego / Stuka / Ángel De Plata / Rey Cometa / Dragón Lee / Hombre Plata, Jr. vs Virus / Doctor X / Puma King / Demus 3:16 / Hijo Del Signo / Durango Kid - Torneo Ciberbnetico Match - CMLL 2/8/11
- John Cena vs CM Punk - WWE 2/14/11
- The Miz vs Daniel Bryan - WWE 2/14/11
- Edge vs Rey Mysterio vs Drew McIntyre vs Wade Barrett vs The Big Show vs Kane - World Heavyweight Championship Elimination Chamber Match - WWE 2/20/11
- Jerry Lawler vs The Miz - WWE Championship Match - WWE 2/20/11
- John Morrison vs King Sheamus vs Randy Orton vs R-Truth vs CM Punk vs John Cena - Elimination Chamber Match - WWE 2/20/11
- Christopher Daniels vs Eddie Edwards - ROH TV Championship Two Out of Three Falls Match - ROH 2/26/11


----------



## Alan4L

sXsCanadianFansXs said:


> Thanks.
> 
> Kaz Hayashi vs. Minoru ****
> I loved the beginning and end of this match. The middle had a bit of the japanese strong style (no sell) that I hate but this one exceeded my expectations.


not to be all nerdy nit-picky but...

There's no such thing as "japanese strong style". The term Strong Style was used as a branding for it's homegrown wrestlers by New Japan in the early 90's (maybe late 80s). It has nothing to do with no-selling, head dropping or being stiff like many Western fans (AND WRESTLERS) seem to think.


----------



## New Blood

I'm pretty much caught up with January for wrestling.

***** Navarro/Black Terry vs. El Apache/Angel Mortal [IWRG 1/16]
Yoshihiro Takayama vs. KENTA [NOAH 1/15]
***** Navarro/Black Terry vs. El Apache/Angel Mortal [IWRG 1/9]
Alberto Del Rio vs. Rey Mysterio [SmackDown! 1/7]
Daniel Bryan vs. Ted DiBiase [NXT 1/25]
Dr. Cerebro vs. Comando ***** [IWRG 1/30]
Black Terry vs. Angel Mortal [IWRG 1/23]
CM Punk vs. John Cena [Raw 1/17]
Jerry Lawler vs. Bill Dundee [SAW 1/29]


----------



## Bubz

*ROH OTSS - Roderick Strong vs Jay Briscoe ROH world title match *****

Jay Briscoe is awesome, he always gets one of the first title shots against the champion, and he always delivers a good title match, but this was really really good. very dramatic with Jay bleeding like crazy and it definately added to the match alot. The crowd was pretty poo until the last few minutes and then they only got into it because Jay literaly shouted "C'MON PEOPLE, SHIT!" at them to get them going and it worked. Can't help but think that i would have rated this higher if the croed was better.


----------



## seancarleton77

Champions Vs. All Stars: Roderick Strong, Christopher Daniels, & The Kings of Wrestling vs. Davey Richards, El Generico & The Briscoe Brothers - 1/14/11 at 81% (around about 4 stars)


----------



## antoniomare007

you doing percentages now sean?


----------



## lewieG

I know it was a while ago now but I want to heap some praise on the Smackdown Elimination Chamber match. It's good, until McIntyre comes in, and from that point on it becomes the best match in the WWE since HBK vs Taker last year IMO. DrewMac does an awesome job at being the dangerous heel, well and truly overshadowing Barrett, and then the last few minutes with Edge and Mysterio is just awesome. It could have been even better if Ziggler and/or Christian, and/or Kofi had have been involved.

****1/4


----------



## seabs

*MOTYC List so far*
****3/4*
_Satoshi Kojima vs Hiroshi Tanahashi - NJPW Wrestle Kingdom V
Hiroshi Tanahashi, Prince Devitt & Mistico vs Shinsuke Nakamura, Testuya Naito & Averno - NJPW 22.01.2011
Golden Lovers vs Apollo 55 - NJPW 23.01.2011_

******
_Naruki Doi & Ricochet vs Chuck Taylor & Johnny Gargano - DGUSA 28/01/2011
CIMA & Dragon Kid vs Masato Yoshino & PAC - DGUSA 28/01/2011
El Generico vs Eddie Kingston - CHIKARA Chaos In The Sea Of Lost Souls
Roderick Strong vs Jay Briscoe - ROH Only The Strong Will Survive_

*****1/4*
_Masato Yoshino & PAC vs Naruki Doi & Ricochet - DGUSA 29/01/2011
Kotaro Suzuki vs Eddie Edwards - NOAH 29.01.2011
Smackdown Elimination Chamber
Eddie Edwards vs Christopher Daniels - 2/3 Falls - ROH 9th Anniversary Show_

*****1/2*
_CIMA & Dragon Kid vs Chuck Taylor & Johnny Gargano - DGUSA 29/01/2011_



seancarleton77 said:


> Champions Vs. All Stars: Roderick Strong, Christopher Daniels, & The Kings of Wrestling vs. Davey Richards, El Generico & The Briscoe Brothers - 1/14/11 at 81% (around about 4 stars)


*How did you determine it to be 81% and not 80%?*


----------



## seancarleton77

Seabs said:


> *How did you determine it to be 81% and not 80%?*


It was over 4 stars, but just by a hair. That way if I think it's slightly better than another match that I consider around 4 stars I can give it 81or 82 percent and give another match 80 percent.


----------



## RiseAgainst

I recently watched the Elimination Chamber PPV again. Great chambers. Both were indeed great.

SD! Elimination Chamber 2011 - ****1/4
RAW Elimination Chamber 2011 - ***3/4


----------



## seancarleton77

El Generico vs Eddie Kingston - CHIKARA Chaos In The Sea Of Lost Souls


----------



## Bubz

*El Generico vs Eddie Kingston - CHIKARA Chaos In The Sea Of Lost Souls *****

Really great match here. Kingston is awesome, anyone who hates him after only seeing his awful run in ROH needs to watch this, he's got a belly on him sure but he can put on a hell of a match and is a great story teller in the ring. Generico is Generico, he's always awesome, so defo check this out if you havn't yet.


----------



## seancarleton77

I really dug Generico vs. Kingston. One thing does slightly bother me, does Bryce Remsburg always sound like a 16 year old virgin who spends 18 hours a day on World of Warcraft or is that just a gimmick? Chikarason is a boss by the way.


----------



## jpchicago23

I wouldnt give Generico v Kingston 4 stars maybe 3.5 but i'm not much of a star guy anyway. I thought some spots slowed the match down but the brainbuster on the apron was sick!! Good match


----------



## jawbreaker

Wow, it's March already and I only have one match on my MOTYC list (Sekimoto-Hidaka). My need to watch list consists of the following:

Suzuki-Edwards
Daniels-Edwards
Kingston-Generico

Anything else I'm missing?


----------



## antoniomare007

Daisuke vs Okabayashi

nothing great but a




























match IMO


----------



## Corey

jawbreaker said:


> Wow, it's March already and I only have one match on my MOTYC list (Sekimoto-Hidaka). My need to watch list consists of the following:
> 
> Suzuki-Edwards
> Daniels-Edwards
> Kingston-Generico
> 
> *Anything else I'm missing*?


Smackdown Elimination Chamber and Strong/Briscoe.


----------



## jawbreaker

The SD chamber was fucking awful. No idea what everyone saw in that.

I'll add Strong/Briscoe (there were two other good matches from OTSS, right?).


----------



## Corey

Daniels/Castagnoli and Richards/Hero.


----------



## Bubz

Those three matches from OTSS are all 4 stars and definately worth watching, but Strong/Briscoe is the best match. Such great drama, Jay is really underrated as a singles wrestler.


----------



## RingoPlaysDrums

Would honestly rate Masters/Reks from Superstars right up there at this point.

These two have been on fire recently, and this may have been their blow-off. It certainly delivered. They got a good amount of time and beat the crap out of one another. Masters attacked Reks right off the bat, showing how intense this feud has become and chopping the fuck out of him. I LOVE Tyler's big boston crab, it looks like it bloody hurts! Everything these two guys did was tight and well-executed. Everything was sold excellently. Their strikes were fantastic, and some of the guys higher up the card could learn a thing or two about effective striking from these two. After only 5 minutes it felt as though they'd been through a war, such was the impact of everything they did. That is how you work an intelligent and worthwhile match inside 10 minutes. Simple things like the back roll pin attempt from Masters leading up to the samoan drop and the moment he grabbed the ropes while in the Boston Crab were on point. And the ending? Well it was perfect. The Burning Hammer straight into the Masterlock. Chris Masters is looking like an absolute beast right now. If only it was on Raw or Smackdown... 

Nonetheless, a really terrific match between these two and one of my favourites of 2011 thus far.


----------



## seancarleton77

antoniomare007 said:


> Daisuke vs Okabayashi
> 
> nothing great but a
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> match IMO


I honestly thought Sekimoto looked great, but this was a one man match. Had Sekimoto's opponent looked good I would have put this in my top 10 so far.


----------



## seabs

*Eh? Okabayashi looked great from what I recall, if not better than Sekimoto. Thought it was good but not MOTYC material (shit how many times I have said that in this thread so far lol), around ***1/2*

*Akira Tozawa vs BxB Hulk - DGUSA United We Stand*
_****1/2_


----------



## milkman7

Looking like a better wrestler than Sekimoto is like smelling better than shit.


----------



## Corey

*Dragon Gate USA - United We Stand*

BxB Hulk vs. Akira Tozawa - ****
_Didn't quite like it as much as Seabs did, but it was still pretty awesome. Easily one of the stiffest matches you'll see all year._


----------



## rafz

ROH Only The Strong Will Survive
_Davey Richards vs. Chris Hero - _******
_Roderick Strong vs. Jay Briscoe - _*****1/4*

DGUSA United We Stand
_Akira Tozawa vs. BxB Hulk - _*****1/4*


----------



## Granatapersempre

Tozawa vs BxB Hulk was A-W-E-S-O-M-E!!


----------



## Chismo

Sting vs Jeff Hardy *****


----------



## seancarleton77

JoeRulz said:


> Sting vs Jeff Hardy - *****


Fixed.


----------



## Boom Baby

BB vs Tozawa ****1/4


----------



## Alan4L

huge 16 Carat ratings post coming from me.

Spoiler:
13 matches at **** or above
3 matches and ****3/4


----------



## Corey

Alan4L said:


> huge 16 Carat post coming from me.
> 
> Spoiler:
> 13 matches at **** or above
> 3 matches and ****3/4


I'm assuming you were there live?


----------



## KingCrash

Alan4L said:


> huge 16 Carat post coming from me.
> 
> Spoiler:
> 13 matches at **** or above
> 3 matches and ****3/4


Including the one you called? How was Sekimoto/Generico?


----------



## reDREDD

Sting vs Hardy was a masterpiece in psychology and storytelling. Jeff was playing the role of the fucked up druggie perfectly and Sting played the role of the 50 year old who is sick of this shit perfectly

It was the subtle hints that I loved the most. Truly, a masterpiece in wrestling. Never a dull moment.


----------



## peep4life

Damn, 16 Carat must be insane with those snowflakes, though having Sami Callahan in it makes me really want to skip it


----------



## joebro2000

When can we expect that amazing upload...You have set the standard pretty high!!!!


----------



## Bubz

redeadening said:


> Sting vs Hardy was a masterpiece in psychology and storytelling. Jeff was playing the role of the fucked up druggie perfectly and Sting played the role of the 50 year old who is sick of this shit perfectly
> 
> It was the subtle hints that I loved the most. Truly, a masterpiece in wrestling. Never a dull moment.


I know you hate TNA as well, so thats gotta say something lol

Just watched it, truly a masterpiece, nothing will top it this year.


----------



## Boom Baby

redeadening said:


> Sting vs Hardy was a masterpiece in psychology and storytelling. Jeff was playing the role of the fucked up druggie perfectly and Sting played the role of the 50 year old who is sick of this shit perfectly
> 
> It was the subtle hints that I loved the most. Truly, a masterpiece in wrestling. Never a dull moment.


lol. +1


----------



## abv

Matt Hardy vs AJ Styles - VR 2011.


----------



## Alan4L

joebro2000 said:


> When can we expect that amazing upload...You have set the standard pretty high!!!!


I ain't uploading it!!! I meant a post with my ratings.

Seriously, support these guys if you can. Buy at least one night on DVD if you plan on watching the tourney.

anyway here's the post:

Daisuke Sekimoto vs. El Generico (3/13) ****3/4
Leaders vs. Cole & O’Reilly (3/13) ****3/4 (WITH ***** commentary, LOL)
Davey Richards vs. Zack Sabre Jr. (3/12) ****3/4
Go Shiozaki vs. Johnny Moss (3/11) ****1/4
Go Shiozaki vs. Big Van Walter (3/11) ****1/4
Sami Callihan vs. Big Van Walter (3/13) ****1/4
Sami Callihan vs. Tommy End (3/11) ****1/4
Cole & O’Reilly vs. Generico/Sitoci (3/12) ****
Go Shiozaki vs. Kotaro Suzuki (3/12) ****
Daisuke Sekimoto vs. Bad Bones (3/11) ****
El Generico vs. Kotaro Suzuki (3/11) ****
Davey Richards vs. Jon Ryan (3/11) ****
Colt Cabana vs. Marty Scurll (3/12) ****


----------



## Alan4L

KingCrash said:


> How was Sekimoto/Generico?


my MOTY. Imagine the best possible Sekimoto match. Imagine the best possible Generico match. Combine them.


----------



## antoniomare007

damn you Alan, damn you!!!


----------



## lariatooooo!!!

Alan4L said:


> Daisuke Sekimoto vs. El Generico (3/13) ****3/4
> Leaders vs. Cole & O’Reilly (3/13) ****3/4 (WITH ***** commentary, LOL)
> Davey Richards vs. Zack Sabre Jr. (3/12) ****3/4
> Go Shiozaki vs. Johnny Moss (3/11) ****1/4
> Go Shiozaki vs. Big Van Walter (3/11) ****1/4
> Sami Callihan vs. Big Van Walter (3/13) ****1/4
> Sami Callihan vs. Tommy End (3/11) ****1/4
> Cole & O’Reilly vs. Generico/Sitoci (3/12) ****
> Go Shiozaki vs. Kotaro Suzuki (3/12) ****
> Daisuke Sekimoto vs. Bad Bones (3/11) ****
> El Generico vs. Kotaro Suzuki (3/11) ****
> Davey Richards vs. Jon Ryan (3/11) ****
> Colt Cabana vs. Marty Scurll (3/12) ****


 ...

I was there, some of the matches were really really good, but this is just overrating them.



Alan4L said:


> Seriously, support these guys if you can. Buy at least one night on DVD if you plan on watching the tourney.


True. If I'd only buy one show it was Day 2, because of Suzuki/Go and Richards/Sabre. These were the two best matches of the whole weekend imo (***3/4-****1/4). Sabre did a great job in all 3 of his matches, you should also check out Day 3 because of LDRS of the new school vs. O' Reilly/Cole and if you want, Sekimoto vs. Generico (it was just too much, Generico selling shit's ridiculous as always). If you're marking hard for Generico kicking out of everything you will love his match with Daiske.


----------



## CM Skittle

Alan4L always overrates matches, whenever I read his reviews I just subtract a star and that's usually a more accurate rating, lol.


----------



## RingoPlaysDrums

I adore Alan's enthusiasm. It is refreshing.


----------



## SHIRLEY

I hate it when people use star ratings to communicate how much fun they had watching stuff. It totally misses the point of what star ratings are supposed to be.


----------



## F5uits

Shirley Crabtree III said:


> I hate it when people use star ratings to communicate how much fun they had watching stuff. It totally misses the point of what star ratings are supposed to be.


Whoa...


----------



## jawbreaker

Shirley Crabtree III said:


> I hate it when people use star ratings to communicate how much fun they had watching stuff. It totally misses the point of what star ratings are supposed to be.


You're assuming star ratings are supposed to be anything.


----------



## lariatooooo!!!

Shirley Crabtree III said:


> I hate it when people use star ratings to communicate how much fun they had watching stuff. It totally misses the point of what star ratings are supposed to be.


I somehow agree but when you're just using stars to clarify how awesome everything has been, you're missing the point as well. To me the rating system is about explaining your view in a short way to others and to distinguish between matches. If all matches of a 3-day event reach ****-****3/4 stars, that's blank to me and doesn't help anybody, but each to their own. If you rate a not-much-wrestling-based comedy act like Cabana vs. Scurrl (which indeed was awesome but rather in an entertaining way) **** stars and the great NOAH bout Go Shiozaki vs. Kotaro Suzuki **** stars, what do you think?


----------



## SHIRLEY

jawbreaker said:


> You're assuming star ratings are supposed to be anything.


If you're trying to do the whole Dave Meltzer thing, surely you'd be using his scientific, dispassionate approach. Rather than the "I liked this match this many stars" thing. 

It's supposed to be a way to assess a wrestling match's quality, away from the personal bias that words can bring with them. Isn't it? 

The five stars are supposed to be given for: workrate, difficulty and range of moves used, the way a match fits into a wider storyline context, the internal psychology of the match, and engaging the crowd successfully.

You're critiquing a match on how well did it's own job, in those respects. If you're not then I don't know why you'd be using stars. Other than trying to look cool, of course. Surely it'd be easier to just say "I liked this match, you should watch it".

*@Lariatoooo* Comedy and strong-style are just different styles of wrestling. You've identified something else that mildly annoys me. People who give matches stars purely based on how "real" they are. "This match had the best wrestling". Colt Cabana is a more accomplished professional wrestler than a lot of strong-style workers. It's not out of the realms of possibility that Cabana could have a 5* comedy match but no IWC member would ever credit him with one.

*tl;dr* I think snowflakes are retarded. Just sayin'.


----------



## seancarleton77

I'm done with star ratings myself. I'm on a word/percentage rating scale. Like "Hoooo-Lee-Shit that was good1" or 85%.


----------



## jawbreaker

Shirley Crabtree III said:


> If you're trying to do the whole Dave Meltzer thing, surely you'd be using his scientific, dispassionate approach. Rather than the "I liked this match this many stars" thing.
> 
> It's supposed to be a way to assess a wrestling match's quality, away from the personal bias that words can bring with them. Isn't it?
> 
> The five stars are supposed to be given for: workrate, difficulty and range of moves used, the way a match fits into a wider storyline context, the internal psychology of the match, and engaging the crowd successfully.
> 
> You're critiquing a match on how well did it's own job, in those respects. If you're not then I don't know why you'd be using stars. Other than trying to look cool, of course. Surely it'd be easier to just say "I liked this match, you should watch it".
> 
> *@Lariatoooo* Comedy and strong-style are just different styles of wrestling. You've identified something else that mildly annoys me. People who give matches stars purely based on how "real" they are. "This match had the best wrestling". Colt Cabana is a more accomplished professional wrestler than a lot of strong-style workers. It's not out of the realms of possibility that Cabana could have a 5* comedy match but no IWC member would ever credit him with one.
> 
> *tl;dr* I think snowflakes are retarded. Just sayin'.


I personally use stars because most people understand them and it's a way of quantifying "holy fuck I loved this match".

There is no objective standard of quality. My goal in watching wrestling is to enjoy it, so from my perspective, the wrestlers' job is to make me enjoy what they do in the ring. Matches I enjoy the most are therefore matches that I consider the best, and matches that I don't enjoy are matches I consider bad.

Some people would rather watch an ROH show where no match exceeds ***3/4 than a TNA show with three ****+ matches. Lots of people like Chikara, despite the fact that the wrestling might not be objectively the best.

Star ratings are a way, for me at least, to objectify the subjective. And I would rather take the entire subjective experience than try to isolate the more objective elements and only consider them.


----------



## SHIRLEY

Fair enough but _liking a match_ and _recognising a match as a 5* star classic_ are two different things. Liking something is more about relating to it on a personal level.

For example, I liked watching Sting vs. Hardy because it was piss funny but it was beyond the biggest DUD I've ever seen in wrestling.


----------



## Corey

abv said:


> Matt Hardy vs AJ Styles - VR 2011.


I actually just watched this and I really enjoyed it. The problem with Victory Road is of course that 70% of it was utter dogshit, but they did have two really good matches. I'd say Ultimate X and AJ/Hardy were both ***1/2. AJ/Hardy would've been so much better if Hebner had just ejected Flair at some point during the match. His constant interference got annoying after a while. But that's expected in TNA. Anyway, here's my updated list for everyone to enjoy:

1. Two out of 3 Falls: Christopher Daniels vs. Eddie Edwards (ROH 9th Anniversary Show) - ****1/2
2. Elimination Chamber: Edge vs. Rey Mysterio vs. Kane vs. Big Show vs. Drew McIntyre vs. Wade Barrett (WWE Elimination Chamber) - ****
3. Roderick Strong vs. Jay Briscoe (ROH Only The Strong Survive) - ****
4. BxB Hulk vs. Akira Tozawa (DGUSA United We Stand) - ****
5. Christopher Daniels vs. Claudio Castagnoli (ROH Only The Strong Survive) - ****
6. Eddie Kingston vs. El Generico (Chikara Chaos in the Sea of Last Souls) - ****


----------



## Rickey

*Hardy/AJ-Victory Road 2011* is worth a watch along with II/BM and the Ultimate X match. Everything else...


----------



## seancarleton77

"NEW YEARS EVE TOSHIKOSHI PRO-WRESTLING 2010 COUNTDOWN SPECIAL”:

FLUORESCENT LIGHT TUBES DEATH MATCH: Ito Ryuji, Abdullah Kobayashi & Inematsu Saburo vs. Takeda Masasashi, Kodoka Isami & Minamino Takeshi = 80%

World's First 7 Referee Match: Ohashi Atstushi vs. GENTARO = Comedic Genius! 85%

15. ELIMINATION MATCH: Mashimo Kengo, Miyamoto Yuko, Mammoth Sasaki, Sawa Munenori & Tamura Kazuhrio vs. Sasaki Yoshihito, HARASHIMA, Ishikawa Shuji, Hayato “Jr,” Fujita & Sakura Emi = 90% Match of the Fucking Year!!


----------



## Alan4L

watched that Elim match a few weeks ago. Found it massively disappointing.


----------



## Boom Baby

AJ vs Matt (VR) - ***3/4


----------



## lewieG

Eddie Edwards vs Christopher Daniels - ROH 9th Anniversary: ****1/4

Best way to describe this would be as what most ROH fans would probably consider a typical ROH uppercard match to be. And that means it's pretty darn awesome. Lots of good chaining then they move into bigger spots and lots of drama. Edwards takes a few big risks and hard bumps, but so does Daniels, including one spot near the end where he gets a nasty cut. Looking forward to the rematch of the rematch, assuming there is one. Tied with the SD Elimination Chamber for my MOTY thus far.


----------



## Bubz

...*Silently waiting for the 16 carat gold tourny to be uploaded*...


----------



## New Blood

seancarleton77 said:


> I'm done with star ratings myself. I'm on a word/percentage rating scale. Like "Hoooo-Lee-Shit that was good1" or 85%.


I've stopped using the star ratings over a year ago. I think when people just put up star ratings, it hinders any kind of discussion. It's much better to write a sentence or two (or a paragraph) to explain why you think a certain match is great and is worth watching not just put up "*****".

When I watched Hansen/Andre and realized that is possibly the greatest wrestling match that I've ever seen, if I was still a Meltzer follower, I'd probably give it **** at most but I'd put it above any so called 5 star match. Plus, I think the system is only used for work rate, for the most part, and I got over being a work rate snob a while ago. It's also made me appreciate the small things in wrestling, especially when I realized that wrestling isn't this scientific sport but is still a carny spectacle.


----------



## jawbreaker

When I use star ratings, it's almost always accompanied by an explanation.


----------



## New Blood

jawbreaker said:


> When I use star ratings, it's almost always accompanied by an explanation.


That's the best way. Nothing against those who do use star ratings (hell, I used them for 5 or so years) but I don't think they mean much when not explained.


----------



## Alan4L

bubz123 said:


> ...*Silently waiting for the 16 carat gold tourny to be uploaded*...


well considering it just happened and the DVDs won't be out for a while, you might have to wait a bit. Of course buying them yourself would speed up that process (and support a great company).


----------



## lariatooooo!!!

Dunno how long it'll take but I guess 1-3 months.


----------



## Bubz

Oh ok, i wasn't aware it only just happened, thought people had seen it on DVD. My bad.

On the star rating subject, i agree, you can't take them seriously when they aren't explained.


----------



## SuperDuperDragon

The Smackdown main event was pretty dope.


----------



## silver kyle

I like using the star system if I don't have the time to go into detail about said matches. I'm always willing to give my reasons as to why a certain match was good or bad if someone asked though.

It also gives people an idea of how good a match is. Even if someone describes a match perfectly, you still wouldn't know how good it really is until you watch it. You just know it would be ****+ range. If they gave their rating, you'll at least have a better idea.


----------



## seabs

*Takashi Sugiura vs Giant Bernard - GHC Heavyweight Championship - NOAH 05.03.2011*
_****1/4

Really simple but really effective. Bernard was amazing in this and looked about as good of a dominant heel as anyone has in a good while. Sugiura sold his ass off and really helped make it feel like a genuine battle to overcome Bernard. Bernard mentions in the build that Sugiura wont be able to throw him and they build so well to Sugiura finally lifting him off the ground. Some great teases early on. Dunno if the first one was a botch or supposed to be like that but all the same it worked really well in the context of it all, intentional or not. _


----------



## Zatiel

Star ratings have very little use to me. They're used in such arbitrary ways, so that to one person 3 and 1/2 is a standout while to another that means it isn't worth watching. I heard Vinny on the Bryan & Vinny Show say two stars meant "above average." Beyond that, it doesn't articulate what was worthwhile or bad about a match. Was the flying great? Stellar spotfest? Sympathetic selling? Finish came out of nowhere but made great sense? A Bret Hart ***** match is little like a Mitsuharu Misawa *****. All they're good for is, if they're **** or higher, indicating that the rater is excited about it. I'd much rather read your thoughts on a match, and I don't buy that people don't have the time to write a few sentences explaining why they loved something. If you have the time to argue with me over this, you have the time to explain why a match ruled.

Anyway, the best match I've seen this year so far...

*Takashi Sugiura Vs Giant Bernard - NOAH: Great Voyage 2011 in Tokyo, March 5th*

I agree with Seabs that it was simple. Simplicity can work. I love matches where Sugiura throws around big guys, but having him struggle, fail, fall to his knees in back pain and get abused for most of the match also works. Instead of popping for several Suplexes, the crowd was popping for a Rear Waistlock that *might* be a German Suplex. Sugiura's face was covered in pain so much, and Bernard was such an abusive beast. We need more big guys who can be this dominant in wrestling. The Powerbomb on the apron was sick, made only sicker by the story of Sugiura's existing back injury. I loved that Bernard didn't just go plodding, but busted out high offense and sometimes hit rapidfire offense like the multiple Vader Bombs. He convinced me he was really fighting for a title, not simply being a monster. By the end you knew that Bernard was full of crap, really believing Sugiura could lift him and so grabbing the ropes and fighting to avoid getting tossed.

Sugiura's botches add to his matches. It's weird. When he nearly killed himself on the floor against Morishima, things got more dramatic. This time when Bernard fell on top of him in the German, Bernard was smart enough to go for the cover. This stuff just comes off as raw to me, rather than sloppy. Much better if someone like Bernard can route it back into the story.


----------



## The REAL MP

I can't wait to watch that match. I love Bernard-o. They need to bring in Husky Harris to be his protege whenever he inevitably gets sacked by the WWE for being too fat-looking.


----------



## Bubz

Prince Albert is awesome!


----------



## Sunglasses

NOAH, 05.03.2011 - GHC Jr. Heavyweight Title - Kotaro Suzuki (c) vs. Katsuhiko Nakajima: ****1/4


----------



## Zatiel

To look completely two-faced, I watched Suzuki Vs. Nakajima last night and might have enjoyed it more than Bernard Vs. Sugiura. It's the polar opposite with guys hitting everything from bell to bell. I don't know if there is a wrestling kick Nakajima didn't throw. It had a dozen false finishes and every one of them was exhilarating. Worlds more entertaining than Suzuki's defense against Edwards. It was that endless-fire style that some people hate, but when it's done this well is so damned fun.


----------



## Sunglasses

Zatiel said:


> To look completely two-faced, I watched Suzuki Vs. Nakajima last night and might have enjoyed it more than Bernard Vs. Sugiura. It's the polar opposite with guys hitting everything from bell to bell. I don't know if there is a wrestling kick Nakajima didn't throw. It had a dozen false finishes and every one of them was exhilarating. Worlds more entertaining than Suzuki's defense against Edwards. It was that endless-fire style that some people hate, but when it's done this well is so damned fun.


That's exactly what I think about it. This was so much fun to watch.


----------



## Bubz

*Takashi Sugiura vs Giant Bernard - NOAH Great Voyage ***1/2

Kotaro Suzuki vs Katsuhiko Nakajima - NOAH Great Voyage *****

Both good matches here but not close to my MOTY. Bernard vs Sugiura told a good story but i thought it dragged in a few places.

Suzuki vs Nakajima was great it seemed slightly off right at the start but they seriously went full force after the first 5 minutes. Nakajima's kicks are lethal and both guys just look like bad ass's here. Not as good as Suzuki vs Edwards though IMO.

Oh yeah, By the way...Nakajima's pants where awesome!!!!


----------



## sXsCanadianFansXs

Sugiura vs. Bernard ****
This was different than a lot of puro matches that get love around here. It was fresh to see a clear heel and face-in-peril. The athleticism was nothing to rave about but the simple story elevated the match. A good story is way more memorable than a few flashy moves.

Now if I could only see Tozawa/Hulk and Suzuki/Nakajima.


----------



## seancarleton77

I'm probably the biggest Sugiura fan on this forum and I have to say I was Marjory let down by the actual wrestling, Bernard was great though. The in ring work other than the working over of Sugiura's ribs and the taunting was nothing better than good. Not a Match of the year candidate to me.


----------



## sXsCanadianFansXs

Suzuki vs. Nakajima ***3/4
An exciting defense for Suzuki but I was a little miffed about him taking six superkicks to the face (in a row) followed by a brainbuster and kicking out. The match would make a phenomenal highlight reel but nothing I'm going to remember a month from now. Nowhere near as good as his defense against Edwards (which is my current MotY).

Next up.. Tozawa/Hulk and I'm all caught up.

EDIT: 
Tozawa vs. Hulk ****
A very good match that rose Tozawa's stock even higher. Not as good as Tozawa/Hero but still worth checking. Both guys put in a lot of effort and listened to the crowd which a lot of indy guys forget to do.


----------



## seabs

*Masato Tanaka vs Yuji Nagata - ZERO-1 06.03.2011*
_Man I hope Nagata continues touring through promotions and working more and more singles matches because he has the potential to go on one hell of a rampage this year with CC and the Tanahashi match coming up, plus probably G1 participation. He's fucking awesome here and there's some great spots here and there. Has it's flaws like the lack of selling etc etc but the good parts more than make up for it.

****_

*Shinjiro Otani vs Yoshihiro Takayama - ZERO-1 06.03.2011*
_Awesome David vs Goliath type match here with two guys showing despite their age that they're still better than most of the newer heavyweights and I highly doubt most of the new 21st century heavyweights could put on a match this good together. Otani's fighting spirit is awesome and it's so fucking easy to get behind which also makes the near falls at the end so much better. Much better than I expected and a lotta fun.

***3/4_


----------



## Alan4L

El Generico vs. Marty Scurll IPW:UK No Escape (up for stream on their on demand website)

****1/4 - hell of a match with Generico playing the aggressor and Marty being an awesome underdog. Some crazy spots and it all built really well. Similar to Generico vs. Tominaga which was also an awesome match.


----------



## Corey

*ROH - SoCal Showdown II*

Davey Richards vs. TJ Perkins - ****
_Obviously there was some great technical wrestling in this. Perkins is oh so impressive for his age. Davey puts him over huge after the match, says a ton of guys wouldn't be where they are (including himself) if it weren't for Perkins being there training with them in PWG. Great match. _

The Kings of Wrestling vs. Charlie Haas & Shelton Benjamin - ****
_Idk how it stacks up against their first match, but this one was pretty damn good._

*ROH World Championship*
Roderick Strong(c) vs. El Generico - ****1/4
_This was so god damn good before the fairly flat ending. Generico is the ultimate underdog babyface and Strong just beats the piss out of him. If their Atlanta match is anything like this, it should be fantastic. I really wanted to yell at my tv though because the crowd got annoying. There was a handful of people that were chanting Rooooderick the entire match and it was ridiculous. They even continued after the match..._


----------



## dezpool

I hope TJP continues to have strong showings like this, and his matches with both Hero and Generico. There are a bunch of fresh matches ROH could do with a guy like him.


----------



## Bubz

*KOW vs WGTT *****
This was about as good as their first match IMO. The crowd was good for this one and WGTT look better with each time they perform in an ROH ring. Some great spots such as the Dragon Whip in to the rolling elbow by Hero. You can tell they are leaving things out, hopefully for the Atlanta match, if they go full force on that one, we have a definate MOTY on our hands.

You can also tell that Hass and Shelton are enjoying their time in ROH, always look pumped and motivated to go.

*Stong vs Generico ***3/4*
This was a good title match, but it lacked anything that memorable. The Brainbuster was a good nearfall, but Generico's nearfalls didn't seem as believable as Jay's did at OTSS.

*Davey vs TJP ****1/4*
Hell Yeah! This was awesome! Some great technical wrestling and exchanges here with lots of cool spots, and the finish was awesome. TJP is really impressive, can't wait to see his matches with Hero/Generico. Davey was awesome as usual and it was funny when he name dropped PWG after the match.


----------



## seancarleton77

Davey Richards vs. TJ Perkins


----------



## Zatiel

Catching up on ROH before the iPPVs.

While it happened in 2010, TJ Perkins Vs. Kyle O'Reilly (Tag Title Classic 2) is my favorite match I've seen this year so far. Just about ten minutes long. The crowd doesn't know what to make of it at first, and it's funny to hear an ROH audience sit on their hands for chain wrestling and highly technical grappling. But rather than pander to the audience, both guys keep their eyes on each other and take everything really seriously, and the audience had to come along by the time they exchanged headkicks. Liked it even more than their EVOLVE match, which I didn't think was possible. By virtue of staying short they were able to hit high offense earlier without unrealistic longterm no-selling. I loved that it ended on a technical pin rather than one killer move. This is the sort of match that, if it happened between two guys at this level in 2003, would have made them for the ROH audience.


----------



## SLIW-StAr

Here are a few ratings of the 16 Carat Gold Tournament (wXw, Germany)

**SPOILERS**

- LDRS of the New School vs. Kyle O'Reilly & Adam Cole ****1/4+
- Davey Richards vs. Zack Sabre ****1/4
- Go Shiozaki vs. Kotaro Suzuki ****
- Daisuke Sekimoto vs. El Generico ****

And the 3 days had several more above-average matches! Check it out!


----------



## sXsCanadianFansXs

RoH SoCal Showdown II

TJP vs. Davey Richards ****1/4
Awesome, awesome match. Fresh, innovative and exciting, TJP made a great opponent for Davey Richards. In my top 3 matches of the year.

KoW vs. WGTT ****
Much better than their match with The Briscoes at the iPPV. It had way more substance (ie. MOVEZ~!) and counters. 

Strong vs. Generico ****
A very good title match. Generico is just so damn sympathetic. I feel that they can probably top this, though. Generico's nearfall with the brainbuster was pretty convincing.


----------



## Bubz

yeah i know Generico and Strong can do better than that match, it was really good though. And Davey vs TJP was the most i have _enjoyed_ watching watching a wrestling match in ages, it made me realise why i love Davey so much. His match with Hero at OTSS was good but he went over the top, this was perfect. Almost considered giving it ****12, it needs another watch me thinks.


----------



## seabs

*Minoru vs Shuji Kondo vs Kaz Hayashi - AJPW 06.02.2011*
_This is insanely good for a little 10 minute match. Arguably the best 3 way I've seen put together, definitely at least in the current era. Loads of innovative and cool stuff and it was literally non stop plus it set Kondo up perfectly for a title shot and he looked immense.

***3/4+_

*Daisuke Sekimoto & Yuji Okabayashi vs Seiya Sanada & Manabu Soya - AJPW 06.02.2011*
_Has everything you could want from a big heavyweight tag battle like this. Hot crowd, hard hitting and some crazy power moves. The double suplex double team that they did was the best I can recall seeing it done. Es suprised me at just how great they were in this. Several minutes clipped off it sadly and a little overkilly at the end but that's almost the cost of the ticket for a great match these days. Wasn't bad enough to take too much away from what was a great heavyweight match.

****1/4_


----------



## Nervosa

Can someone please show me an Edwards singles match that has an actual story? I know I sound like a dick for asking this way, but with all the hype around him, I need to see where it comes from. For me, he is great in tag matches, where storylines are relatively basic, but in singles matches, the guy has no idea when to time a workover or a comeback or general selling of any kind. 

Is there a good example of this...because I'm seeing all the same problem in his match with Suzuki that I saw in his match with Davey in the TV tournament: no story at all until the last five minutes...and even THAT isnt sold. Granted, I haven't seen the Daniels match yet, and maybe thats a good one, but I just don't see why this guy is anything special in singles.


----------



## Zatiel

Nervosa said:


> Can someone please show me an Edwards singles match that has an actual story?


Edwards Vs. Daniels for the TV Title on HDNet, which is many months old now, has a fine story. Haven't seen their return bout. On HDNet Daniels kept pushing him until Edwards was fighting harder to win before the time expired than the challenger was. Conceding for five more minutes because he wanted to prove himself and then actually failing was a huge deviation from the expectations around time limit extensions.

I am not a big Edwards supporter - would prefer to watch Daniels, Richards, Generico, Hero or Castagnoli as ROH champ. But I do think Edwards has potential and am willing to watch a few title defenses as he proves himself at the very top.


----------



## Alan4L

OLY FUCKING FUCK!!!! B-BANQUET 288 is incredible.

juniors three way is deadly. Kondo is just a total beast. The match is BOOM BOOM BOOM, all action. Really great.

fun KENSO/TARU brawl (that is short)

THEN....

THEN OH THEN....

Daisuke & Okayabashi vs. Sanada & Soya - HOLY JESUS. Sekimoto is just ridiculous right now. It's not fair. No man should be this good at anything. Him and Soya just go at it, right from the get go. Sanada and Oka play their parts well but they were very much suppporting players here. This was a war. Perhaps the biggest war in puro in a few months. Go out of your way to watch this. Oh and yeah it's their first of three matches in the series!


----------



## Generation-Now

Nervosa said:


> Can someone please show me an Edwards singles match that has an actual story? I know I sound like a dick for asking this way, but with all the hype around him, I need to see where it comes from. For me, he is great in tag matches, where storylines are relatively basic, but in singles matches, the guy has no idea when to time a workover or a comeback or general selling of any kind.
> 
> Is there a good example of this...*because I'm seeing all the same problem in his match with Suzuki that I saw in his match with Davey in the TV tournament: no story at all until the last five minutes*...and even THAT isnt sold. Granted, I haven't seen the Daniels match yet, and maybe thats a good one, but I just don't see why this guy is anything special in singles.


Just because you didn't understand the story, or failed to recognize it, doesn't mean it didn't exist...


----------



## antoniomare007

*Daisuke Sekimoto & Yuji Okabayashi vs Seiya Sanada & Manabu Soya - AJPW 06.02.2011*

Aside from a little overkill in the end (they did go 30 minutes so that's kinda inevitable in todays wrestling) this was amazing. Great Korakuen crowd, a great big heavyweight battle were Daisuke looked like a damn beast and just about everything you want from a interpromotional match.


----------



## Nervosa

Generation-Now said:


> Just because you didn't understand the story, or failed to recognize it, doesn't mean it didn't exist...


Cool, sure, lets go with that. Thats why I'm posting this: if there is a story there, please explain it. You clearly saw one in those two matches, so please explain.


----------



## jawbreaker

Yeah, I'm not seeing a whole lot of story in Edwards/Suzuki either. I'll get to Edwards/Daniels eventually, but while he's gotten a bit smoother and more technically proficient, he seems unable to structure a singles match.

The one exception I can think of off the top of my head is that TV title tournament match with Steen, but once again: literally everyone Kevin Steen wrestled in 2010 had a good match with him. I'd put Steen's 2010 up there with London's 2003, Richards' 2009, maybe even Danielson's 2006 for best years by an indy wrestler this decade.


----------



## Nervosa

jawbreaker said:


> Yeah, I'm not seeing a whole lot of story in Edwards/Suzuki either. I'll get to Edwards/Daniels eventually, but while he's gotten a bit smoother and more technically proficient, he seems unable to structure a singles match.
> 
> The one exception I can think of off the top of my head is that TV title tournament match with Steen, but once again: literally everyone Kevin Steen wrestled in 2010 had a good match with him. I'd put Steen's 2010 up there with London's 2003, Richards' 2009, maybe even Danielson's 2006 for best years by an indy wrestler this decade.


See, but even the Steen match wasnt that great. The run in completely ruined it, which wasnt Eddie's fault, but nevetheless pretty much disqualifies it from being a truly great singles match.

And as good as Steen's year was, I think thats a bit of an exaggeration. Danielson's 06 and at least 3/4's of Nigel 08 were vastly superior. I'd say on par with Richards' 09, though.

Seriously, just list 4*+ matches and Steens list doesnt stack up. I think that has a lot more to do with ROH's product than anything else, but still.


----------



## Corey

I personally thought Edwards/Daniels from the 9th Anniversary Show told a great story. Daniels worked over his neck the whole match and Eddie sold it like a champ, plus Daniels' inadvertently busted open head made the draw look much more convincing. The wrestling was top notch as well. Sit and watch that match.


----------



## Boom Baby

Minoru vs Shuji Kondo vs Kaz Hayashi - AJPW 06.02.2011 - ****


----------



## Bubz

Eddie vs Suzuki was just two guys going at it from the start, and for that type of match it was awesome. The thing is, i see people complaining about an Eddie match and having no story, but the same people will sometimes praise the shit out of a puro match that has just as little or less story. His match with Daniels at the 9YA is easily my MOTY so far. The story was Eddie trying to prove that he could finaly beat Daniels after failing twice already, and Daniels trying to prove that Eddie couldn't beat him. Both men where extremely agressive on offense and looked like they really wanted to win. The end showed that Eddie was coming that much closer to winning, and sets up their title match at the Centre Stage shows perfectly.


----------



## Martyn

Devitt/Ibushi @ NJPW WK V 4/1 - ****+.


----------



## jawbreaker

Nervosa said:


> See, but even the Steen match wasnt that great. The run in completely ruined it, which wasnt Eddie's fault, but nevetheless pretty much disqualifies it from being a truly great singles match.
> 
> And as good as Steen's year was, I think thats a bit of an exaggeration. Danielson's 06 and at least 3/4's of Nigel 08 were vastly superior. I'd say on par with Richards' 09, though.
> 
> Seriously, just list 4*+ matches and Steens list doesnt stack up. I think that has a lot more to do with ROH's product than anything else, but still.


It wasn't so much that every match he had was great as that he never had bad matches. He carried Homicide to a really fun match, had 4* one with Player Dos, and had an eight minute match with Eddie Edwards on TV with a shitty finish that I remember a year later. Whenever he was on camera he was the guy to be watching. Yes, ROH's product was weak and everyone knew it, but the caveat always was "outside of Steen/Generico".

You need to post more btw.


----------



## Nervosa

jawbreaker said:


> You need to post more btw.


I'm going to try. Got married at end of last year, took me away from doing my usually MOTY stuff. (By the way, Nakamura/Goto was far and away my MOTY 2010, and I honestly think I'm the only one on the board who even placed it top 5. Travesty.)

I will agree Steen was never bad. Not nearly as good as some years for other people, but ROH MVP 2010 by a long shot. HE is the reason I didn't give up entirely, and why, now that PEarce is fired, I am motivating myself to watching again.

I'll suspend judgment of Edwards until I see the Daniels match at 9YA.


----------



## Alan4L

Updated for 3/30 (New additions in bold) 

Including Dec 2010, Observer style. 

*WWE: *
Royal Rumble (1/30) ****3/4
*Smackdown Elimination Chamber (2/20) ****1/4*
John Morrison vs. Sheamus (12/19) ****1/4
John Cena vs. Dolph Ziggler (12/20) ****
*Alberto Del Rio vs. Kofi Kingston (2/20) ****
Raw Elimination Chamber (2/20) ****
Daniel Bryan vs. The Miz (2/14) *****

*Puro: *
*Kaz Hayashi vs. Minoru (1/2) (AJPW) ****3/4
Kotaro Suzuki vs. Katsuhiko Nakajima (3/5) (NOAH) ****1/2
Sanada/Soya vs. Sekimoto/Okabayashi (2/6) (AJPW) ****1/2
Sanada/Soya vs. Sekimoto/Okabayashi (3/21) (AJPW) ****1/2*
Hiroshi Tanahashi vs. Satoshi Kojima (1/4) (NJPW) ****1/2
Prince Devitt vs. Kota Ibushi (1/4) (NJPW) ****1/2
Takashi Sugiura vs. Takeshi Morishima (12/5) (NOAH) ****1/2
Kings Of Wrestling vs. Takayama/Sano (12/5) (NOAH) ****1/2
Apollo55 vs. Golden Lovers (1/23) (NJPW) ****1/4
YAMATO vs. BxB Hulk (12/26) (DG) ****1/4
Daisuke Sekimoto vs. Ikuto Hidaka (1/1) (Z1) ****1/4 
KENTA vs. Naomichi Marufuji (12/5) (NOAH) ****1/4
Bad Intentions vs. Blue Justice (12/11) (NJPW) ****1/4
Hiroshi Tanahashi vs. Hirooki Goto (12/11) (NJPW) ****1/4
Satoshi Kojima vs. Shinsuke Nakamura (12/11) (NJPW) ****1/4
*Shuji Kondo vs. Minoru (3/21) (AJPW) ****1/4
Hiroshi Tanahashi vs. Tetsuya Naito (12/12) (NJPW) ****1/4
Shuji Kondo vs. Kaz Hayashi vs. Minoru (2/6) (AJPW) ****
Masato Tanaka vs. Yuji Nagata (3/6) (Z1) ****
Hirooki Goto vs. Satoshi Kojima (12/12) (NJPW) ****
El Generico vs. Shinichiro Tominaga (1/3) (UNION) *****
Aoki/Marufuji vs. Kanemoto/Tiger Mask (12/24) (NOAH) ****
No Limit vs. Motor City Machine Guns (12/11) (NJPW) ****
CIMA/Yoshino vs. Doi/Gamma (12/21) (DG) ****
K-neSuka vs. Fujii/Mochizuki (12/21) (DG) ****
Maraha Isappa vs. Mochizuki/Fujii vs. Shingo/Cyber (12/26) (DG) ****
Yoshino/PAC vs. CIMA/Kid (12/5) (DG) ****
Kondo/KAI vs. Doi/Tanisaki (1/24) (DG/AJPW) ****
Taniguchi/Morishima vs. Sasaki/Nakajima (1/29) (NOAH) ****
Eddie Edwards vs. Kotaro Suzuki (1/29) (NOAH) ****

*PWG: *
Kevin Steen vs. Akira Tozawa (12/11) ****1/2
Peligro Abejas vs. Kings Of Wrestling (12/11) ****1/4
Young Buck$ vs. Fighting Taylor Boys (12/11) ****


*DGUSA/EVOLVE: *
*Akira Tozawa vs. BxB Hulk (1/30) ****1/2*
PAC/Yoshino vs. Doi/Ricochet (1/29) ****1/4
Akira Tozawa vs. Austin Aries (1/29) ****
Ronin vs. Doi/Ricochet (1/28) ****
Ronin vs. CIMA/Dragon Kid (1/29) ****
Ronin vs. Aries/Horiguchi/Ricochet (1/7 airdate) ****


*ROH: *
Kevin Steen vs. El Generico (Fight Without Honour) (12/18 ) ****3/4
Roderick Strong vs. Davey Richards (12/18 ) ****1/2
*Kings Of Wrestling vs. American Wolves (12/17) ****1/2
Jay Briscoe vs. Roderick Strong (1/15) ****1/4*
All Night Express vs. Cole/O’Reilly (12/18 ) ****
*Kyle O’Reilly vs. TJ Perkins (12/17) *****

*wXw:*
*Daisuke Sekimoto vs. El Generico (3/13) ****3/4
Leaders vs. Cole & O’Reilly (3/13) ****3/4
Davey Richards vs. Zack Sabre Jr. (3/12) ****3/4
Go Shiozaki vs. Johnny Moss (3/11) ****1/4
Go Shiozaki vs. Big Van Walter (3/11) ****1/4
Sami Callihan vs. Big Van Walter (3/13) ****1/4
Sami Callihan vs. Tommy End (3/11) ****1/4
Cole & O’Reilly vs. Generico/Sitoci (3/12) ****
Go Shiozaki vs. Kotaro Suzuki (3/12) ****
Daisuke Sekimoto vs. Bad Bones (3/11) ****
El Generico vs. Kotaro Suzuki (3/11) ****
Davey Richards vs. Jon Ryan (3/11) ****
Colt Cabana vs. Marty Scurll (3/12) *****

*Other:*
Leaders vs. Peligro Abejas (12/5) (IPW:UK) ****1/2
*El Generico vs. Eddie Kingston (1/23) (Chikara) ****1/4
El Generico vs. Marty Scurll (3/6) (IPW:UK) ****1/4
Leaders vs. Cole & O’Reilly (3/6) (IPW:UK) *****
Eddie Edwards vs. Mark Haskins (12/5) (IPW:UK) ****
Philly’s Most Wanted vs. The Osirian Portal (12/11) (CZW) ****


----------



## Boom Baby

Daisuke Sekimoto & Yuji Okabayashi vs Seiya Sanada & Manabu Soya - AJPW 06.02.2011 - ****


----------



## Bubz

*Daisuke Sekimoto & Yuji Okabayashi vs Seiya Sanada & Manabu Soya - AJPW *****

Some awesome spots and moments from all big men involved, but without Sekimoto it really would not have been on the same level. This is only my 3rd or 4th time seeing him, but he is awesome. I was thinking to myself a while ago when everyone started loving the guy "can he really be that good?" and the answer is yes, yes he can. One of the best if not the best thing going in Japan at the moment.


----------



## Speedy McGee

1)Smackdown Elimination Chamber (WWE No Way Out) ****1/2
2)Eddie Edwards vs. Kotaro Suzuki (NOAH) ****1/2 
3)Omega and Ibushi vs. Devitt and Taguchi (NJPW) ****1/4
4)Roderick Strong vs. Jay Briscoe (ROH Only The Strong Will Survive) ****1/4
5)Chris Hero vs. Davey Richards (ROH Only The Strong Will Survive) ****
6)Kota Ibushi vs. Prince Devitt (NJPW) ****
7)Eddie Edwards vs. Christopher Daniels (ROH 9th Anniversary Show) ****
8)Daisuke Sekimoto vs. Ikuto Hidaka (Zero-1) ****
9)Raw Elimination Chamber (WWE No Way Out) ****
10)Kenta vs. Yoshihiro Takayama (NOAH) ****
11)Dolph Ziggler vs. Edge (WWE Royal Rumble) ****
12)The Briscoes Bros vs. WGTT (ROH 9th Anniversary Show) ****
13)The Miz vs. John Morrison (WWE Raw) ***3/4
14)Christopher Daniels vs. Claudio Castagnoli (ROH Only The Strong Survive) ***3/4
15)Daniel Bryan vs. The Miz (WWE Raw) ***3/4

I'm about to watch a couple of other MOTY matches, and will post my review of the matches later.


----------



## jawbreaker

Watched Suzuki-Edwards, Ibushi-Devitt, Castagnoli-Daniels, the CvAS main event, Richards-Hero, and Kaz-Minoru.

My MOTY (4*+) list:

1. Daisuke Sekimoto vs. Ikuto Hidaka, ZERO1 1/1, ****1/4
2. Chris Hero vs. Davey Richards, ROH Only the Strong Survive, ****

Finishing OTSS tonight, then SoCal Showdown II and the last two matches of 9YA probably tomorrow.


----------



## geraldinhio

Omega and Ibushi vs. Devitt and Taguchi (NJPW) is probably my match of the year so far ****1/2 .I loved this match ,everything just seemed so smooth ,innovative and the finishing sequence was immense to say the least .Did anyone else like the match that much or did I just overrate it as i'm a massive Devitt mark. 

Honestly didn't like Daniels/Edwards match as much as many here.Not just sure was the quality of the match I downloaded or the crowd just kinda ruined it for me.I really liked the match,don't get me wrong probably **** 1/4 .

Here's so more I watched recently.
I gave Smackdown Elimination Chamber (WWE No Way Out) **** .(really hard to rate fun matches)
John Morrison vs. Sheamus (12/19) ****1/4
Ronin vs. Doi/Ricochet (1/28) ****
Ronin vs. CIMA/Dragon Kid (1/29) ****
Davey Richards vs TJ Perkins (ROH SoCal Showdown II) ****1/4 

I'v been crazy busy with college so havn't watched too many matches recently .Any recommendations?I'v been missing out in a lot of Tozawa.


----------



## seancarleton77

Sekimoto Daisuke & Okabayashi Yuji vs Sanada Seiya & Soya Manabu either of the two matches


----------



## seabs

seancarleton77 said:


> Sekimoto Daisuke & Okabayashi Yuji vs Sanada Seiya & Soya Manabu either of the two matches


*They had 3 matches.*

*Daisuke Sekimoto & Yuji Okabayashi vs Seiya Sanada & Manabu Soya - AJPW 21.03.2011*
_Oh man this is on par with Bad Intentions vs Blue Justice from last year as far as amazing modern day heavyweight tag battles go. Been an immense amount of praise in here for Sekimoto matches this year and a lot of them way overrated. Kinda funny how all of a sudden since the turn of the year everyone's finally jumped on him all at once yet his insanely good DDT run last year with the title got hardly any response. This is up there with them for Daisuke performances though and is a much better showing of him than most of the other stuff from this year. The Sekimoto/Soya exchanges are brilliant and Sanada & Okabayashi are far from seconds to accompany them because all 4 of them were at insanely high level of greatness here. Loads of great spots that kepyt popping up in their matches and were just as great every time. The double torture rack and the double top rope splashes are awesome double teams. This is the best of the trilogy too. 1st match was brilliant, didn't think too much of the second though. Didn't have the atmosphere of the first match and that killed it a lot for me at least. This one also has the added bonus of an epic match with a title change without people kicking out of a billion big moves at the end too.

****1/2+_

*Daisuke Sekimoto, Yuji Okabayashi & Ryuichi Kawakami vs Yoshihito Sasaki, Shinya Ishikawa & Masashi Otani - BJW 12.02.2011*
_Strong BJ multi man tag. Korakuen Hall. Sekimoto, Okabayashi & Y.Sasaki. Great Match? Get outta here. Strong BJ multi man tags like this rarely ever fail to deliver and this is no different. Otani is a really green rookie and kinda sucked but it's actually impossible, I've now come to the conclusion of, to not get behind a rookie with enough fire playing FIP. Daisuke just totally has his way with the poor guy and it's another awesome outing for him. Okabayashi often gets unfairly shadowed by him which is unfortunate but understandable. Yuji's just as good as him imo. Lots of hate and the story with Otani in there added another dimension to an already great match. MORE PLEASE!

****1/4+_

*Takashi Sugiura vs Trevor Murdoch - NOAH 21.03.2011*
_This is awesome and for one reason only, TREVOR MURDOCH. Holy shit this guy made me a massive fan in just one outing. He looked amazing and so much better than I remember him ever looking in WWE, even with the limitations. He throws some awesome lariats and moved suprisingly well around the ring. The heel tactics were glorious, especially the chain trick. Oh and he did a DX chop followed by the pedigree. Shame that the match didn't get much of a reaction which ultimately hurt Sugiura's comeback at the end but I enjoyed this a lot.

***3/4_

*Kings Of Wrestling vs Shelton Benjamin & Charlie Haas - ROH SoCal Showdown II*
_Wasn't amazing but it acted as the perfect appetiser for this weekend. Felt that they were always holding something back in this match as well as the GBH match but they should just go all out on 4/1 and given how good the other two matches were it should be brilliant.

***3/4_

*Roderick Strong vs El Generico - ROH SoCal Showdown II*
_Took a while to get going but once it got hot it got really great. Generico cant have a bad match it seems and when you've got a good crowd and a hot match it's pretty much always great. 

***3/4_


----------



## Nervosa

Seabs said:


> *They had 3 matches.*


Is it 2/6, 2/11, and 3/21?


----------



## antoniomare007

i need to watch the 3/21 match ASAP


----------



## seancarleton77

antoniomare007 said:


> i need to watch the 3/21 match ASAP


I don't like when people use "ASAP" but I agree.


----------



## antoniomare007

*Daisuke Sekimoto, Yuji Okabayashi & Ryuichi Kawakami vs Yoshihito Sasaki, Shinya Ishikawa & Masashi Otani - BJW 2/12/11*

Even better than the usually great Strong BJ tag. It has even more hate and stiffness than normal, and you have the story of the rookie Otani trying to survive the attacks of Oka, Kawakami and specially Daisuke. Everyone looked great in this, just a brutal (in a super fun kinda way) match.


----------



## jawbreaker

*Roderick Strong vs. Jay Briscoe, ROH Only the Strong Survive:
*

They were going amazingly for a bit with Strong getting actual heat for once. Everything they did felt bigger than normal, and I was totally feeling it. But then they just kinda resorted to hitting their spots, sometimes through tables, and then kicking out. Remember when the Jaydriller was the ultimate finisher that put down everyone from Special K to Samoa Joe? Seven years later Roderick takes two, including one through a table, and barely sells it.

Despite the overkilltastic finish, this match was still pretty damn good, thanks to an absolutely amazing middle section. ****.


----------



## Bubz

jawbreaker said:


> *Roderick Strong vs. Jay Briscoe, ROH Only the Strong Survive:
> *
> 
> They were going amazingly for a bit with Strong getting actual heat for once. Everything they did felt bigger than normal, and I was totally feeling it. But then they just kinda resorted to hitting their spots, sometimes through tables, and then kicking out. Remember when the Jaydriller was the ultimate finisher that put down everyone from Special K to Samoa Joe? Seven years later Roderick takes two, including one through a table, and barely sells it.
> 
> Despite the overkilltastic finish, this match was still pretty damn good, thanks to an absolutely amazing middle section. ****.


These are my exact same thoughts about the match. I liked the Jdriller through the table though, an awesome hope spot from Jay (Who is underrated as a singles wrestler) but then they seemed to forget about Jays blood etc and Roddy started doing all of his backbreakers and what not. Honestly, i like Strong but he is slowly becoming the main offender of overkill, and i really don't like him beeing a heel, in the NRC he was good, he looked like he could chop you in half back then, now he just doesn't look the part to be a bastard heel at all. Someone in the other thread said they want chubby Roddy back and i agree!


----------



## antoniomare007

*Seiya Sanada & Manabu Soya vs Daisuke Sekimoto & Yuji Okabayashi - AJPW 3/21/2011*

:faint:

Simply amazing...


----------



## antoniomare007

Seabs said:


> *Daisuke Sekimoto & Yuji Okabayashi vs Seiya Sanada & Manabu Soya - AJPW 21.03.2011*
> _Been an immense amount of praise in here for Sekimoto matches this year and a lot of them way overrated. Kinda funny how all of a sudden since the turn of the year everyone's finally jumped on him all at once yet his insanely good DDT run last year with the title got hardly any response. This is up there with them for Daisuke performances though and is a much better showing of him than most of the other stuff from this year. The Sekimoto/Soya exchanges are brilliant and Sanada & Okabayashi are far from seconds to accompany them because all 4 of them were at insanely high level of greatness here. Loads of great spots that kepyt popping up in their matches and were just as great every time. The double torture rack and the double top rope splashes are awesome double teams. This is the best of the trilogy too. 1st match was brilliant, didn't think too much of the second though. Didn't have the atmosphere of the first match and that killed it a lot for me at least. This one also has the added bonus of an epic match with a title change without people kicking out of a billion big moves at the end too.
> 
> ****1/2+_


couldn't agree more, i've been a huge fan of Daisuke since his feud with Tanaka in 07' but ever since he became the DDT Champ he's been on an incredible roll.


----------



## seancarleton77

antoniomare007 said:


> *Seiya Sanada & Manabu Soya vs Daisuke Sekimoto & Yuji Okabayashi - AJPW 3/21/2011*
> 
> :faint:
> 
> Simply amazing...


Who do I have to blow to get a hold of this gem?


----------



## antoniomare007

Seabs the GAWD posted it in the puro media section


----------



## Nervosa

EDIT: THIS IS REFERRING TO THE 9YA MATCH

Eddie Edwards vs. Christopher Daniels ***3/4

I’m going to review this in detail so people can understand why Eddie Edwards makes no sense. If you don’t like long posts, skip this. 

Opening stuff was fine, Edwards using his chops to gain control worked ok. But then Eddie had control of the match…which means nothing happened of note, especially in progressing the story. When Daniels gets control he begins to work the neck, which is good because it forces Eddie to tell a story, no matter how badly he usually tries to avoid it. But of course, Eddie can’t even be bothered to throw an arm over his neck and sell the fucking thing. I almost turned off the match right here because of how infuriating it is that Edwards can’t tell a damn story, but I figure if everyone loves this so much, I’ll keep going. EE regains control with a hurricurana, because Eddie thinks that a hurricurana IS a comeback. Explosions are to Michael Bay as hurricaranas are to Eddie. Daniels sells his neck on this ONE MOVE more than Eddie sold in almost ten minutes of neck work. Eddie hits a huge but overall floppy and foot-heavy dive into the crowd and that gets him over with the crowd, I guess.

But wait……..holy crap…….after they get back in the ring…..Eddie is FINALLY holding his neck, and even releases a bridge early to do so. There is hope for him yet! Eddie gets nice little comeback before Daniels gets in more neckwork, and the match levels a bit. Eddie gets another fine comeback, and the timing is working pretty well. The Achilles lock reversal into the Koji clutch is awesome. Daniels rules. People actually popped for Eddie stealing Daniels’ submission even after Daniels did it seconds earlier……….did they NOT see that coming? Daniels’ rollup for the first fall is the perfect way to do it in that they enhance the idea that he is just always a step ahead of Eddie. 

But I hate the follow up: after the pinfall, Eddie just gets up and lariats Daniels, and than they just lie around. I get the idea that Eddie needs to look aggressive now that he is down, but if they wanted that story, they should have just had Eddie unleash instead of just lariating away all the momentum of the first fall just to lie around. Blue thunder to the apron is awesome….and also solidifies that Eddie’s lariat made no sense at that point in the match. What exactly was the point of that? O….and now a countout tease: just because Eddie knows it will piss me off. How many times will ROH use this tired cliché?

Eddie’s reversal into the second fall was nice eye candy….but there was almost no lead into it and Daniels tapped way to quick on a limb that had barely been touched in the match. Again, I just don’t understand the timing here. Other than the lariat-of-no-logic, Eddie hadn’t shown any life since the first fall, making his reversal here more confusing than inspiring. You’re telling me they built up the whole ‘can Eddie beat Daniels’ storyline through almost THREE MATCHES and THAT’S how he finally does it? WHHHHHY?

Eddie goes for the hold that got him the fall, but Daniels is in survival mode. Edwards tops it off with a super hurricurana, because its Edwards and that’s what he does. The one minute warning goes up, and there would be a lot of drama from people wondering if Eddie can beat Daniels…..except we just saw him do it, so the drama has been greatly scaled back. Daniels tries some weird hip toss to the floor, but Eddie botches it and it looks ridiculous which leads to a dumb semi-countout falsey that everyone in the arena knew wouldn’t become anything, and that’s the match. Daniels is bleeding so everyone uses that as a cop-out so they don’t have to restart the match. I actually think I would have liked it more if the draw just stood like in the old ROH instead of them feeling like they have to explain it. 

Ok…so I get the story, and most of the first fall made sense. The workover would have been great had Eddie decided to act like it was actually hurting him. Eddie’s first big comeback was his best moment of the match, and the first fall was perfect for the story, but Eddie immediately reverts to his old self, with no sense of storytelling, timing, or selling for any kind of story to be found. Daniels looked like his 2003-04 quality, but Edwards’ flaws are far too much. The match ending on a botched move that no one can really explain brings it down a lot and leaves us with a bad taste in our mouth. 

I leave this match with the same question I had after the Edwars/Richards match and the Edwards/Suzuki match….why is everyone acting like Eddie is something special? I agree he has decent execution/moveset and he is amazing in tag matches where storyline is simpler, but the guy just doesn’t GET singles wrestling. Does anyone have any better explanations this time around, because besides jawbreaker, I’m not getting many compelling arguments.


----------



## Boom Baby

Daisuke Sekimoto & Yuji Okabayashi vs Seiya Sanada & Manabu Soya - AJPW 21.03.2011 - ****1/2


----------



## Rickey

*Christopher Daniels vs. Eddie Edwards-Honor Takes Center Stage, Phase 1.*
Note: would have benefited from a more climatic ending but still worth the watch.

Also recommend watching:
*Strong/Richards
Briscoes/Cole + O'Reilly
Kings/WGTT*

from the same event.


----------



## Boom Baby

Takashi Sugiura vs Trevor Murdoch - NOAH 21.03.2011 - ***3/4


----------



## Nervosa

I guess tonight I'm just gonna trash everyone;s faovite MOTY candidates:

Gargano/Taylor vs. CIMA/Dragon Kid
****

Where is the MOTY here, exactly? Nice, fast paced tag with Ronin slowly gaining more and most respect as the match went along, but certainly noting that got the crowd on their feet, and not enough drama for the finish to mean very much. Spots were good, and clean, except for once where Chuckie made Dragon repeat a rope run to pull off a spot. Finish was a nice surprise, and they did build up Gargano's finisher very well, but I don't see what made this so special.


----------



## Corey

*ROH - Honor Takes Center Stage: Chapter 1
*
Roderick Strong vs. Davey Richards - ****
_The first half of the match was fairly slow, then it picked up and Strogn beat the monkey shit out of Davey like always. I liked this, but they've had better matches. One thing I noticed were that several of the chops and kicks had no noise, which just doesn't come off as well as a big smack or thud. It may sound better on dvd though. Cool moment is seen where Roddy nails Richards with a forearm and a big gob of blood shoots out of his mouth. But hey, it was the usual from the two. Oh and I forgot, the finish was pretty damn cool too._

*ROH World Championship*
Eddie Edwards(c) vs. Christopher Daniels - ****1/4
_So this was really just what I thought it would be. A lengthy, well wrestled and well appreciated title match. These two have such great chemistry together and both guys definitely deserve to be in the main event against one other. I love how the story unfolded with Daniels' bein a bit cocky in thinking he can beat Eddie again since he's done it twice, then Daniels's getting more and more frustrated as the match goes on and Eddie is repeatedly kicking out of his big moves. Daniels' ultimately ends up using chairs and a table and it's pretty clear he'll be turning heel very soon. Ultimately a great match to kick off what should be an excellent title run for Eddie._


----------



## Bubz

Nervosa said:


> Eddie Edwards vs. Christopher Daniels ***3/4
> 
> I’m going to review this in detail so people can understand why Eddie Edwards makes no sense. If you don’t like long posts, skip this.
> 
> Opening stuff was fine, Edwards using his chops to gain control worked ok. But then Eddie had control of the match…which means nothing happened of note, especially in progressing the story. When Daniels gets control he begins to work the neck, which is good because it forces Eddie to tell a story, no matter how badly he usually tries to avoid it. But of course, Eddie can’t even be bothered to throw an arm over his neck and sell the fucking thing. I almost turned off the match right here because of how infuriating it is that Edwards can’t tell a damn story, but I figure if everyone loves this so much, I’ll keep going. EE regains control with a hurricurana, because Eddie thinks that a hurricurana IS a comeback. Explosions are to Michael Bay as hurricaranas are to Eddie. Daniels sells his neck on this ONE MOVE more than Eddie sold in almost ten minutes of neck work. Eddie hits a huge but overall floppy and foot-heavy dive into the crowd and that gets him over with the crowd, I guess.
> 
> But wait……..holy crap…….after they get back in the ring…..Eddie is FINALLY holding his neck, and even releases a bridge early to do so. There is hope for him yet! Eddie gets nice little comeback before Daniels gets in more neckwork, and the match levels a bit. Eddie gets another fine comeback, and the timing is working pretty well. The Achilles lock reversal into the Koji clutch is awesome. Daniels rules. People actually popped for Eddie stealing Daniels’ submission even after Daniels did it seconds earlier……….did they NOT see that coming? Daniels’ rollup for the first fall is the perfect way to do it in that they enhance the idea that he is just always a step ahead of Eddie.
> 
> But I hate the follow up: after the pinfall, Eddie just gets up and lariats Daniels, and than they just lie around. I get the idea that Eddie needs to look aggressive now that he is down, but if they wanted that story, they should have just had Eddie unleash instead of just lariating away all the momentum of the first fall just to lie around. Blue thunder to the apron is awesome….and also solidifies that Eddie’s lariat made no sense at that point in the match. What exactly was the point of that? O….and now a countout tease: just because Eddie knows it will piss me off. How many times will ROH use this tired cliché?
> 
> Eddie’s reversal into the second fall was nice eye candy….but there was almost no lead into it and Daniels tapped way to quick on a limb that had barely been touched in the match. Again, I just don’t understand the timing here. Other than the lariat-of-no-logic, Eddie hadn’t shown any life since the first fall, making his reversal here more confusing than inspiring. You’re telling me they built up the whole ‘can Eddie beat Daniels’ storyline through almost THREE MATCHES and THAT’S how he finally does it? WHHHHHY?
> 
> Eddie goes for the hold that got him the fall, but Daniels is in survival mode. Edwards tops it off with a super hurricurana, because its Edwards and that’s what he does. The one minute warning goes up, and there would be a lot of drama from people wondering if Eddie can beat Daniels…..except we just saw him do it, so the drama has been greatly scaled back. Daniels tries some weird hip toss to the floor, but Eddie botches it and it looks ridiculous which leads to a dumb semi-countout falsey that everyone in the arena knew wouldn’t become anything, and that’s the match. Daniels is bleeding so everyone uses that as a cop-out so they don’t have to restart the match. I actually think I would have liked it more if the draw just stood like in the old ROH instead of them feeling like they have to explain it.
> 
> Ok…so I get the story, and most of the first fall made sense. The workover would have been great had Eddie decided to act like it was actually hurting him. Eddie’s first big comeback was his best moment of the match, and the first fall was perfect for the story, but Eddie immediately reverts to his old self, with no sense of storytelling, timing, or selling for any kind of story to be found. Daniels looked like his 2003-04 quality, but Edwards’ flaws are far too much. The match ending on a botched move that no one can really explain brings it down a lot and leaves us with a bad taste in our mouth.
> 
> I leave this match with the same question I had after the Edwars/Richards match and the Edwards/Suzuki match….why is everyone acting like Eddie is something special? I agree he has decent execution/moveset and he is amazing in tag matches where storyline is simpler, but the guy just doesn’t GET singles wrestling. *Does anyone have any better explanations this time around, because besides jawbreaker, I’m not getting many compelling arguments.*


You have proven before that there is no point arguing with you (after the Davey/Tyler DBD match last year) so whats the point, the arguments have been good and obviously most people thought the match was great, and you didn't. What's the point arguing if you clearly won't change your mind whatever the agument is, you didn't regard the match as highly as some and thats that.


----------



## Nervosa

bubz123 said:


> You have proven before that there is no point arguing with you (after the Davey/Tyler DBD match last year) so whats the point, the arguments have been good and obviously most people thought the match was great, and you didn't. What's the point arguing if you clearly won't change your mind whatever the agument is, you didn't regard the match as highly as some and thats that.


My mind has totally been changed on this board and others, many times. Jawbreaker can attest to this. One big example was on this very board where I could not understand the real reasons that Angle/Benoit from the Rumble was good. I was given good reasons, and I have changed my mind as a DIRECT result. 

And why? Because unlike for Davey/Tyler and unlike for all Eddie singles matches........I was given GOOD REASONS to change my mind.

I STILL haven't gotten a good reason to explain why a match with a blatant botch and a useless run-in can be five stars, but thats exactly how Davey/Tyler lauded on here. You say that the arguments were good, but even people giving it five stars were saying 'I know they screwed this up and it shouldn't have been booked that way but I don't care, its still perfect,' which, in itself, is a falacy. (Speaking of which, if you, sir, have reasons why these stated flaws can be overlooked, please provide them.) If I have criticism, its not going to go away unless I'm given good reason.

Also, what 'good arguments' have I been given for why Eddie is anything special? Look back in the thread a couple pages: one guy said I 'didn't see the story,' so I asked him to tell me where it was and he gave me nothing. Jack Evans suggested the match I just reviewed, and while there was a story, Jack claimed Eddie sold like a champ and anyone can see that Eddie didn't even touch his neck during the workover. In addition, everything after the first fall made little to no sense, and he ended the match with a botch. Your argument was that 'Eddie had to prove he could finally beat Daniels after failing twice,' but Eddie's 'big win' was a weird roll-up into the Achilles with NO Lead-in offense on Eddie's part and NO work on Daniels' leg in the match. They basically killed off the 'Edwards can't beat Daniels' idea AND burned out the eventual finish in the same swoop. I'll grant you that it set up the Center stage match, but as for THIS match, there's a lot of problems with the points your putting forth. 

As you can see, the arguments I have gotten haven't been all that great or in depth. Whenever I put forth criticism for a match, people either don't discuss it, or they just talk about what they liked and ignore clear flaws. I would love for anyone to tell me why the bad stuff in Davey/Tyler was ok, and why it can be five stars with such clear mistakes. I would love to see why people don't consider the errors I am bringing up about Edwards to be clear flaws. The whole reason I brought up the Edwards issue is to figure out what everyone sees in him that I must clearly be missing.

My mind CAN be changed, as it was for the Angle/Benoit match. But I need some actual discussion, especially about why my legitimate criticism isn't such a big deal to them. If I put criticism out there, and it isn't addressed, then no, bubz, I'm not getting 'good arguments,' and I certainly am not being given reasons to change my mind.


----------



## sXsCanadianFansXs

I think you may take pro wrestling a little too seriously.


----------



## antoniomare007

*Davey Richards vs Low Ki - Kurt RussellReunion II*

I really liked the fact that this two didn't go into "movesz/overkill indy mode" and did a more strike based match for the most part. Couldn't figure out if Davey was a heel or a face but they still told a nice, simple story. Not a classic match by any means but still fun and considering this was only the 4th match on the card, that was fine.


----------



## Nervosa

sXsCanadianFansXs said:


> I think you may take pro wrestling a little too seriously.


*shrugs* If you see it as an art form, it should be criticized as an art form. Just like film, the truly great can be revered ONLY if it survives criticism. Without criticism, everything is great. 

To compare is to analyze. Black/Richards isn't five stars because there have been matches in the past perfect enough to survive intelligent criticism. That match didn't. 

Criticism is the art of finding the truly great.


----------



## Bubz

Whoah! All i was saying in my last post was that i liked it but you don't, you say that Eddie didn't sell the neck, i thought he sold it fine, you say the Davey/Tyler botch took away from the match, i didn't think it did, i thought the Eddie/Daniels match was great and it made sense, you didn't. No need to bite my head off dude, people have different opinions on matches and that's all i was saying. If the arguments already given won't change your mind then i can't think of any that will because i know it wasn't a perfect match and i didn't say it was, but i think you might be being a little harsh on Eddie.


----------



## sXsCanadianFansXs

Honor Takes Center Stage Part 1 iPPV:

Davey Richards vs. Roderick Strong ****1/4
I have a feeling there will be a fairly large group of people who hate this match. I thought it had great action, a legitimate face-in-peril sequence (which is rare for RoH) and a smart finish. It should be noted that it wasn't wrestled perfectly as a few strikes and moves looked a little off but that doesn't take away from the phenomenal effort put in by both wrestlers. 

WGTT vs. Kings of Wrestling ****+
I was shocked that WGTT won the belts but it was a good surprise and a genuine feel-good moment. This match stands out to me as it had a slower, more methodical pace but a fine story of Haas + Benjamin trying to neutralize Hero's Elbows and Claudio's legs. I think the bout could've benefitted from 2-3 more minutes of action but that's a minor quibble (the pop for the title win was huge).

Ring of Honor Championship: Eddie Edwards (c) vs. Christopher Daniels ****1/4
The best match these two have had with each other. Daniels brought an attitude that we rarely see from him and Edwards was determined to make his first defense memorable. At 30+ minutes, I loved this and may grade it higher on rewatch.

Probably their 2nd best iPPV (or tied with FB for that honor).

Updated MotY standings show that Richards and Edwards are neck and neck for performances this year. Each of the wrestlers hold two spots out of five and they may add another as they wrestle WGTT in a few hours. 

After the 2nd RoH iPPV, I'll probably catch up on those Japanese tags that everyone is raving about.


----------



## seancarleton77

sXsCanadianFansXs said:


> Honor Takes Center Stage Part 1 iPPV:
> 
> Davey Richards vs. Roderick Strong ****1/4
> I have a feeling there will be a fairly large group of people who hate this match. I thought it had great action, a legitimate face-in-peril sequence (which is rare for RoH) and a smart finish. It should be noted that it wasn't wrestled perfectly as a few strikes and moves looked a little off but that doesn't take away from the phenomenal effort put in by both wrestlers.
> 
> WGTT vs. Kings of Wrestling ****+
> I was shocked that WGTT won the belts but it was a good surprise and a genuine feel-good moment. This match stands out to me as it had a slower, more methodical pace but a fine story of Haas + Benjamin trying to neutralize Hero's Elbows and Claudio's legs. I think the bout could've benefitted from 2-3 more minutes of action but that's a minor quibble (the pop for the title win was huge).
> 
> Ring of Honor Championship: Eddie Edwards (c) vs. Christopher Daniels ****1/4
> The best match these two have had with each other. Daniels brought an attitude that we rarely see from him and Edwards was determined to make his first defense memorable. At 30+ minutes, I loved this and may grade it higher on rewatch.
> 
> Probably their 2nd best iPPV (or tied with FB for that honor).
> 
> Updated MotY standings show that Richards and Edwards are neck and neck for performances this year. Each of the wrestlers hold two spots out of five and they may add another as they wrestle WGTT in a few hours.
> 
> After the 2nd RoH iPPV, I'll probably catch up on those Japanese tags that everyone is raving about.


I pretty much agree , except I don't think Roddy vs. Davey was as good as the main event. Loved the old school tag title match. I still can't believe Daniels vs. Edwards was over 30 minutes, never seemed like it was that long, loved that match.


----------



## Nervosa

bubz123 said:


> Whoah! All i was saying in my last post was that i liked it but you don't, you say that Eddie didn't sell the neck, i thought he sold it fine, you say the Davey/Tyler botch took away from the match, i didn't think it did, i thought the Eddie/Daniels match was great and it made sense, you didn't. No need to bite my head off dude, people have different opinions on matches and that's all i was saying. If the arguments already given won't change your mind then i can't think of any that will because i know it wasn't a perfect match and i didn't say it was, but i think you might be being a little harsh on Eddie.


Please explain how a botch does not take away from a match. It is a mistake...an unintentional error. How is that not a drawback? 

What do you mean 'all the arguments given?' You haven;t given me any arguments. Arguments would be telling me where Eddie sold the neck during the workoever instead of just saying he did. Arguments would be telling me WHY the match worked instead of just saying it did. 

As I just said, my mind can TOTALLY be changed, but I need actual arguments rather than people just stating opinions. I can't be the only person on this board who actually has REASONS to have opinions.


----------



## RingoPlaysDrums

Nervosa said:


> Please explain how a botch does not take away from a match. It is a mistake...an unintentional error. How is that not a drawback?


As far as I'm concerned a botch only takes away from a match if the move doesn't have the desired affect and they carry on as if it connected perfectly. Sometimes botches can actually add to the feel of a match, particularly if it is supposed to be reckless or messy, like say a multi-man ladder match. There have been a few instances in recent Money In The Bank matches where I actually felt the botches added something.


----------



## Nervosa

RingoPlaysDrums said:


> As far as I'm concerned a botch only takes away from a match if the move doesn't have the desired affect and they carry on as if it connected perfectly. Sometimes botches can actually add to the feel of a match, particularly if it is supposed to be reckless or messy, like say a multi-man ladder match. There have been a few instances in recent Money In The Bank matches where I actually felt the botches added something.


That's....exactly what they did! The desired affect what flubbed, so Davey put Tyler back down. Then Davey picked him right up again and did the powerbomb. I don't think the match had any feel of 'reckles or messy,' espeically since they were going for an epic, clean wrestling battle.


----------



## RingoPlaysDrums

Oh yeah, I wasn't defending this particular instance or anything. I don't even recall that spot.


----------



## antoniomare007

*Claudio Castagnoli vs El Generico - Kurt RussellReunion II
*

Great match, this two have great chemistry and were able to wake up a crowd that was dead the most part (i blame the horrible legend battle royal for that. Aside from Terry Funk being awesome, that match went way too long and killed the crowd).


----------



## sXsCanadianFansXs

Caught up on a bit before the 2nd iPPV.

Nagata vs. Tanaka ***1/2
I wasn't as big a fan of this as some are. I don't really like crazy forearm exchanges and inconsistent (or non-existant selling). It was interesting at points but unrealistic and I couldn't really get into it as a result.

PWG
Davey Richards vs. Low Ki ****
This was not the overkill match that I thought it would be. In fact, it seemed that they toned it down and wrestled sort of an exhibition. Still, a fantastic encounter that lived up to expectations and the shorter length was a welcomed change. By the way, I thought Richards would dwarf Ki but he's a lot bigger than I thought he was.

I'll get to the rest of PWG after iPPV.


----------



## Nervosa

Nakajima vs. Suzuki
****1/2

History plays in well to the beginning of the match. Nakajima, while clearly skilled, is known as the Junior champ who’s reign was a bit of a fluke. He only pinned KENTA because KENTA got arrogant and chose not to pin Nakajima after hitting the G2S. It plays into Nakajima’s quest to get another chance to show he can be THE junior in NOAH.

The early on stuff is awesome. Nothing too hard hitting, but a great story develops when Nakajima gives Kotaro a clean break, but Suzuki, ever the my-way-or-no-way wrestler, does not give Nakajima the same decency. Then there is a section where Nakajima hits a big kick, his bread and butter, but instead of continuing, hits Suzuki with elbows….which is Suzuki’s primary strike. He even shows off a bit, but Suzuki gets up and hits him with ONE elbow. The strike itself looks like nothing special: nothing more than the kind of strike you would expect to start a strike exchange…but instead it rocks Nakajima to the point where he needs a time out to reassess. Awesome storytelling here around Suzuki’s elbows being every bit as dangerous as Nakajima’s kicks. From that point, Nakajima learns his lesson: he won’t trade elbows with Suzuki for more than a couple blows before resorting to the kick. 

That elbow was also a wakeup call. Nakajima goes from giving KoSu a clean break to chocking him on the guardrail. He always uses a kick to gain control, and once he has it, he works the neck for the German or the Death Roll. Nakajima’s accuracy is so good he’s able to nail most of the kicks right to the back of the neck, and Suzuki’s selling is great. 

But then Nakajima shows arrogance, not unlike what KENTA showed Nakajima over two years ago. Nakajima, thinking he has worked KoSu’s neck sufficiently, tries to trade elbows with Suzuki, who overwhelms Nakajima with his own preferred strike. He gets rolling with some of his trademark moves, even working in an octopus hold to not only hold off Nakajima, but to rest his neck. However, his offense is short lived, as Nakajima is continually able to return to the neck in order to open up his offense. 

They got into a strike exchange that is perfect for that story they’ve told: kicks versus elbows. Nakajima is the winner of the exchange, and Kotaro realizes he is in need of a big move to catch up the damage Nakajima. He gets it in the form of the awesome superplex reversal that lands Nakajima on his neck. They go into rolling pin chances, which works so much cleaner and better than the spot Suzuki did in the Edwards match, and really gets the crowd to really believe it a couple times. 

Suzuki goes for the Widow’s peak, but Nakajima gets a hold of his neck, shakes off an elbow and BLASTS him with a kick in the jaw! Nakajima has done so much damage that he blocks or dodges about 5 elbow attempts, most resulting in Kosu getting chin-checked with kicks. This leads to a brainbuster…and then the GERMAN for probably the most awesome nearfall of the match so far. Nakajima is in shock, but keeps kicking away because he knows he’s close. KoSu, however, manages a desperation elbow to block a kick and that’s all the opening he needs to unload consecutive sick strikes for the first time in the match. Widows peak…but Nakajima kicks out! Nakajima reverses the tiger driver into the SICKEST DEATH VALLEY DRIVER EVER! KICKOUT! Nakajima can’t believe it, but goes for the Death Roll that is ducked by Suzuki, who manages to take advantage with a quick elbow leading to another SICK headdrop move and Tiger Driver for the pinfall! 

The finish may have been a botch here, with a very strange headroppy move from Suzuki that didn’t look clean and that kinda scared the crowd into thinking it was a botch. The tiger driver that followed was well timed and felt extremely climactic, but it was still a scary spot. That probably knocks off ½ star from an otherwise amazing match. The elbow versus kick story, Nakajima’s history, and the awesome neckwork and selling of Suzuki make this my MOTY right now, just ahead of Steen/Generico (Observer calendar)


----------



## Rickey

*ROH-Honor Takes Center Stage Phase 2-All Night Express vs. The Briscoes
*
Also recommend watching:
*Kings of Wrestling vs. Adam Cole and Kyle O'Reilly*


----------



## RingoPlaysDrums

Briscoes vs. All Night Express was phenomenal. The match that made Rhett Titus a fucking star. What a bladejob from Crazy Jay Briscoe too. Brilliant stuff. *****1/4*


----------



## sXsCanadianFansXs

Was that not the match that Suzuki took 6 straight superkicks to the face and a brainbuster and kicked out like it was nothing? You analyze these matches so much that I think you forget about a pivotal part of pro wrestling: selling.

Anyway, RoH Night 2:
ANX vs. Briscoes ****
Both teams brought the intensity and the last few minutes might have been the highlight of the weekend with Jay and Titus battling it out. Official heel turn for The Briscoes make the tag scene interesting.

Generico vs. Strong ***3/4
These two have great chemistry and Generico is flat out phenomenal. Action was great but post-match was the focus.

AmWolves vs. WGTT ****1/2 
I doubted Shelton + Charlie going into this but they held their own. Awesome amateur sequences in the beginning, great counters and offense in the middle and Davey + Shelton were on fire at the end. The best match of the year by a large margin imo. I'm sure people will complain that it went on too long but I disagree. It's not like they peaked too early or the match dragged (or the much dreaded overkill finish). Perfect length, perfect match for a first encounter.

Thumbs way up.


----------



## seancarleton77

Honor Takes Center Stage 2- All Night Express vs. The Briscoes = MOTYC

Wolves vs. WGTT = MOTYC

Generico vs. Strong = Excellent match

Great fucking show! Both nights were great.


----------



## Chismo

*ROH Honor Takes Center Stage, Chapter 1*

Eddie Edwards vs Christopher Daniels ****


*ROH Honor Takes Center Stage, Chapter 2*

The Briscoes vs The All Night Express ****1/2 (MOTY so far)

El Generico vs Roderick Strong ****


I think WGTT/KoW III, WGTT/Wolves and Strong/Davey matches were great too, but not at 4 star level.


----------



## ddog121

Honor Takes Center Stage Chapter 1
Strong v. Richards ****1/2
KOW v. WGTT ****1/4
Edwards v. Daniels ****

Honor Takes Center Stage Chapter 2
Briscoes v. ANX ****1/4 ( Star making performance of the weekend for Titus. Titus and Jay owned this match.)
WGTT v. Wolves ****1/2 (Best match of the weekend for ROH)

Both shows ruled, bring on DGUSA tonight!!!!


----------



## Nervosa

sXsCanadianFansXs said:


> Was that not the match that Suzuki took 6 straight superkicks to the face and a brainbuster and kicked out like it was nothing? You analyze these matches so much that I think you forget about a pivotal part of pro wrestling: selling.


No, you have seen the Superkick look like a world-ender in the USA, when in Japan, it is rarely used that way. In other words, you're taking the move out of context, superimposing your idea of the move rather than how it is being used. It requires understanding that Nakajima has ALWAYS been a forward kick specialist, not a superkick specialist like, say, Marufuji. Nakajima does the chain superkicks in a lot of his matches, and has since 2007. If you follow the actual story of the match, it becomes very clear that, for Nakajima, this particular strike is never used to knock out the opponent, but to set them up, which is why he can hit them consecutively in order to daze them enough to hit...o, say a brainbuster. 

And a brainbuster? The brainbuster is practically a transition move in most feds, even in the US. Generico can't even get a friggin pop off the move unless its on the turnbuckle. Also, saying Suzuki 'kicked out like nothing' after the brainbuster is a bit much. He has to be hauled to his feet after he gets hit with that.

A guy who had Eddie Edwards in his MOTY before tonight doesn't need to be telling me about selling. Suzuki acted like his fucking head was going to fall off here, while Edwards can't even be bothered to throw a hand to his neck most of the time.


----------



## sXsCanadianFansXs

Nervosa said:


> No, you have seen the Superkick look like a world-ender in the USA, when in Japan, it is rarely used that way. In other words, you're taking the move out of context, superimposing your idea of the move rather than how it is being used. It requires understanding that Nakajima has ALWAYS been a forward kick specialist, not a superkick specialist like, say, Marufuji. Nakajima does the chain superkicks in a lot of his matches, and has since 2007. If you follow the actual story of the match, it becomes very clear that, for Nakajima, this particular strike is never used to knock out the opponent, but to set them up, which is why he can hit them consecutively in order to daze them enough to hit...o, say a brainbuster.
> 
> And a brainbuster? The brainbuster is practically a transition move in most feds, even in the US. Generico can't even get a friggin pop off the move unless its on the turnbuckle. Also, saying Suzuki 'kicked out like nothing' after the brainbuster is a bit much. He has to be hauled to his feet after he gets hit with that.
> 
> A guy who had Eddie Edwards in his MOTY before tonight doesn't need to be telling me about selling. Suzuki acted like his fucking head was going to fall off here, while Edwards can't even be bothered to throw a hand to his neck most of the time.


I'll go ***3/4 (at most) for Suzuki/Nakajima. Btw, still think the match was an example of poor selling and I don't remember much from it even though I watched it like 2 weeks ago.

However, I don't care enough to rewatch the match and analyze it move for move. 

Anyways..

All Asia Tag Team Championships: Seiya Sanada & Manabu Soya (c) vs. Daisuke Sekimoto & Yuji Okabayashi (AJPW, 2/6/11) **** - ****1/4
Awesome tag match here. Sekimoto and Sanada impressed me the most with their offense. The match flew by and I did not feel cheated by the draw. 

All Asia Tag Team Championships: Seiya Sanada & Manabu Soya (c) vs. Daisuke Sekimoto & Yuji Okabayashi (AJPW, 2/11/11) ****
I watched all three tag matches back to back so this one could be suffering from being in the middle. They started off with great intensity but it kind of tapered off and became a regular match. Also, the finishing stretch wasn't nearly as convincing or exciting as the first encounter. Still fantastic, though.

All Asia Tag Team Championships: Seiya Sanada & Manabu Soya (c) vs. Daisuke Sekimoto & Yuji Okabayashi (AJPW, 3/21/11) ****1/2
My #2 MotY. This was like an extended edition of their 2nd match with all the best parts of the 1st one. The larger crowd gave the match a special feeling which the other two didn't have. I'm tired so I won't say much more. If you haven't seen it, watch it.


----------



## Bubz

Eddie vs Susuki and Nakajima vs Susuki are both great. Neither had much of a story, they where both basicaly awesome sprints.

Can i just say, i really like your write up's on matches but i think you are looking too depp into the Nakajima match to try and find a _great_ story but really there was no more of a story than a lot of matches you discredit with having no story etc such as the Eddie/Daniels match. I can't really remember a part where Susuki sold his neck THAT much better than Eddie did in the Daniels match. I have since re-watched the 9YA match and i am lowering it slightly as watching it live was a part of the reason i rated it so high i think. 

Also i think there where a few noticable moments in Eddie vs Daniels (9YA) where Eddie clearly sold his neck by holding it after doing a move or taking a move e.g when he hit the Tiger suplex but couldn't perform the bridge because of his hurt neck.

I just feel your being slightly harsh on Edwards, noones saying he's that great, but he is a very good wrestler and very talented, and makes a better champion than Strong did IMO.

On another note, *Davey Richards vs Low Ki *****
Really great match here. Davey almost playing the heel was good, but it just shows that fans will never boo Davey again. Ki looked great and it's good to see him back in PWG where he belongs. It was all about who had the best strikes, and it seemed as though Davey was winning the strike contest until Ki started hitting the foot stomps. The thing with Ki seemingly blowing out his knee on an attempted foot stomp from the top never really came back again apart from Davey going for the ankle lock, and ki just kept hitting stomps etc. Still thats a minor thing and it only happened in the last section of the match and everything was hit very cleanly. the two could have a better match me thinks and maybe they are saving it for a rematch.


----------



## Nervosa

bubz123 said:


> Eddie vs Susuki and Nakajima vs Susuki are both great. Neither had much of a story, they where both basicaly awesome sprints.
> 
> Can i just say, i really like your write up's on matches but i think you are looking too depp into the Nakajima match to try and find a _great_ story but really there was no more of a story than a lot of matches you discredit with having no story etc such as the Eddie/Daniels match. I can't really remember a part where Susuki sold his neck THAT much better than Eddie did in the Daniels match. I have since re-watched the 9YA match and i am lowering it slightly as watching it live was a part of the reason i rated it so high i think.
> 
> Also i think there where a few noticable moments in Eddie vs Daniels (9YA) where Eddie clearly sold his neck by holding it after doing a move or taking a move e.g when he hit the Tiger suplex but couldn't perform the bridge because of his hurt neck.
> 
> I just feel your being slightly harsh on Edwards, noones saying he's that great, but he is a very good wrestler and very talented, and makes a better champion than Strong did IMO.


No doubt, I even said in my review that Eddie sold the neck here more than I have EVER seen him sell in the past. That said, this was just about the first time I've even seen him sell at all. I pointed out in my review that Eddie did indeed hold his neck when he gained control, and my favorite thing he did in the whole match was releasing the tiger suplex early to sell.

That said...DURING the workover itself, when Edwards needs to show weakness in order to set the table for his comeback, he wasn't even holding it, or acting like it was in pain. Daniels had been working the neck for like five minutes before the announcers even picked up on it, and I blame this largely on Eddie not acting like Daniels' pinpoint attack was working. 

But again, let me say this was Edwards best singles match to date....especially on the selling front. This match really blows away the 'meh' match against Suzuki and the aimless Richards match last year. The only problem is that there are still glaring issues in his match psychology and storytelling, so the match still isn't higher than ***3/4 for me. 

I honestly don't think I looked too deep into the Nakajima match, but maybe I'm biased. I just think when you watch the show, and they piece together a LOT of clips from Nakajima's first title win involving KENTA in the pre-match vignette, it shows the parallels they were trying to draw, here. DURING the workover, Kotaro looks like he is struggling for breath, or just to raise his head enough to aim some elbows, and I never forgot that Suzuki was struggling with his neck until some of the final runs of control, which, in themselves, were short enough that I never felt like Kotaro was comfortable after the workover. That, to me, is the point of a workover: even if the guy who got worked gains control, he should never look comfortable afterwards. This is where Suzuki succeeds and Eddie fails, in my opinion.

For me, this has a clear, defined story where Nakajima's control session sets the table for the rest of the match. To me, that isn't a sprint. Sprints don't bother with control sessions, like in Eddie/Suzuki. This had a control session, and even the finishing stretch was affected by it.


----------



## Corey

*ROH - Honor Takes Center Stage - Chapter 2
*
The Briscoes vs. All Night Express - ****
_Wow. I expected this to get physical and I assumed there'd be a lot of brawling but Jesus Christ this was INTENSE. An all out bloodbath highlighted by Jay Briscoe spitting what looks like red mist which is actually just his own blood, a completely out of nowhere table spot, Mark Briscoe falling face first on a ring post, and the crowd going nuts for Rhett Titus. Very reminiscent of the Briscoes/KOW bloodbath from DBDH VIII. Highly suggest you see this one._

The American Wolves vs. Charlie Hass & Shelton Benjamin - ****
_Excellent wrestling in this one. Some really nice exchanges from all four guys and some creativity to go along with it. Really liked all the stereo germans and reversals. Shelton continues to look like a million bucks and I'd love to see them have some singles matches. Probably my favorite WGTT match this year. Curious to see who their first defense will be against._


----------



## Nervosa

bubz123 said:


> I just feel your being slightly harsh on Edwards, noones saying he's that great, but he is a very good wrestler and very talented, and makes a better champion than Strong did IMO.


Sorry, missed this part in your original post, and its too great to not comment.

This frames my whole 'whats the big deal about Edawards?' campaign pretty well. I actually WAS getting the feeling that people WERE saying he was great, and that's why I started asking question in the first place, because from the seemingly aimless singles matches I was seeing, I didn't get it, and I wanted to see what I was so clearly missing. So far I haven't gotten a real good answer. If the answer is, as you say, that he's actually 'not that great,' then I have what I was looking for.

I will agree, he is a decent wrestler, espeically in tag matches, because, as I've said, the story in a tag match can be simpler, and Eddie's faults are hidden, espeically by a great partner. His 'talent' is even less questioned on my part, because I know he can get better: I just think his body of singles work leaves a lot to be desired, espeically if you're like me and you really need a story to dig a match. Eddie, from what I've seen doesn't have the timing, selling, or instincts to tell a real story.

As far as your comment on Strong by comparison...time will tell. Strong, like Tyler, and to some degree, Aries, had the problem of the TV show ruining their odds of creating truly great title reigns. They couldn't really defend the title is quality matches under that system, which makes me pretty excited that they are going off the air because that, along with Eddie's surprise win now makes the 'B-show' title defenses mean something again, and make it so even heel champions can defend the belt regularly, which Strong, Tyler, Aries, Lynn, and the Eddie TV reign utterly failed to accomplish.


----------



## sXsCanadianFansXs

Finished PWG show.

Chris Hero vs. Kevin Steen ***3/4
Like Ki/Richards, I feel like they could probably do better but it was still great. A bit spotty but I loved watching Steen again. 

Castagnoli vs. Generico ****1/4ish
Generico is phenomenal as always and Claudio delivers as well. Generico is the best babyface in wrestling today and he used that to build excitement for the nearfalls. These two have great chemistry and the finish was golden (won't spoil it). The bout probably *just* misses my top 5.


----------



## Bruce L

Any chance somebody could post a link to Sanada & Soya/Sekimoto & Okabayashi from 3/21? I think I read that there was one in one of the multimedia threads, but I can't get into those because for some reason, no matter how many times I post here, I'm always shown as having only 1 post.

Thanks.


----------



## Kapik1337

You can watch it on YouTube. Here's part 1:


----------



## ddog121

had to miss last two matches of DGUSA PPV last night, will watch them when the Video on Demand goes up. 

PAC v. Tozawa ****1/4


----------



## seabs

*Claudio Castagnoli vs El Generico - PWG Kurt RussellReunion II*
_This is awesome and it's a major credit to it that it managed to follow an extremely long show prior to it that had some real put to sleep moments. Generico's easily the best worker in the Indies right now and probably the world. I normally hate it when high flying wrestlers try to sell a leg and just totally disregard it during their offense but Generico puts on a masterpiece on how to sell the leg. 100% consistent and it made a really good match, amazing. Generico not being able to get the momentum for the running yakuza kick built it up perfectly for when he did he it and the brainbuster on one leg was insane. It was all wonderfully paid off with the insane brock lock finish too. 

****1/4+_

*American Wolves vs Charlie Haas & Shelton Benjamin - ROH Honor Takes Center Stage Chapter 2*
_If I never see a ROH main event in 2011 go over 30 minutes I'll be a very happy man. This is the rare case of it being really good though. Sure it could have quite easily cut 10-15 minutes off and it would have been no worse, probably better. There was some limb work that got totally disregarded and it dragged a lot but there was a lot of chemistry there and the crowd were really into it, plus it felt like a main event match.

****_

*Briscoes vs All Night Express - ROH Honor Takes Center Stage Chapter 2*
_Only thing that held this back was Rhett's offense being far too goofy but other than that this was great. Briscoes worked over Titus really well and the ring spot post was an awesome spot to bust him open. King was an awesome hot tag. The table spot was good but it kinda killed it for me when Kevin Kelly went "SUPER SEX FACTOR THROUGH THE TABLE". Rhett's just got to tweak his offense to get more buyable impact moves and get rid of goofy moves like the sex factor now he's in the blood feud of the year. Jay spitting blood in the air like mist was an awesome visual and they had a really hot finish with loads of hate. The Titus/Jay punch off was so good and Titus looked a million times better than he ever has done before. Assuming this gets booked as the annual blood feud in ROH and they get more matches like this with Titus hopefully improving throughout this could be a great feud.

***3/4_


----------



## SHIRLEY

You didn't like Rhett's back rake, that got the HOLY SHIT! chant Seabs?


----------



## WillTheBloody

My live star ratings for the weekend:

*ROH - Honor Takes Center Stage (Chapter 1)*
Eddie Edwards vs. Christopher Daniels - ****3/4*
Chris Hero & Claudio Castagnoli vs. Shelton Benjamin & Charlie Haas - ******
Jay & Mark Briscoe vs. Adam Cole & Kyle O'Reilly - ****3/4*

*ROH - Honor Takes Center Stage (Chapter 2)*
Eddie Edwards & Davey Richards vs. Shelton Benjamin & Charlie Haas - ****3/4*
Chris Hero & Claudio Castagnoli vs. Adam Cole & Kyle O'Reilly - ******
Jay & Mark Briscoe vs. Kenny King & Rhett Titus - ******

*DGUSA - Mercury Rising*
YAMATO vs. Austin Aries - *****1/2*
CIMA, Naruki Doi & Ricochet vs. Chuck Taylor, Johnny Gargano & Rich Swann - *****1/2*
PAC vs. Akira Tozawa - *****1/4*

*DGUSA - Open the Ultimate Gate*
Masato Yoshino & PAC vs. CIMA & Naruki Doi - ******
YAMATO vs. Akira Tozawa - *****1/4*


----------



## Sephiroth

Will, how was Aries/Jacobs?


----------



## WillTheBloody

Sephiroth said:


> Will, how was Aries/Jacobs?


Really fun. Jacobs locked him in an early headscissors and Aries pushed his way out of it. This annoyed Jacobs, who pushed Aries' head back down and demanded that he dropkick out of it. Aries did and later caught Jacobs' legs while he was going for his backflip rana. The crowd told him that Jacobs gave him one so Aries should return the favor. He said, "Alright..." and allowed Jacobs to drop him with it. Aries said something like, "Okay, we each got one like we agreed" and slapped Jimmy on the tush. Jimmy slapped back, things escalated and they started really fighting. There were lots of cool counters and a finish that came out of nowhere, pissing some people off. I thought it was perfect...

...until Aries' swerve where he joined the Blood WARRIORS. There's a better account of that in the DGUSA Thread. Tough to assign stars for with all the goofiness, and it loses it's sentiment when you take into account what happened afterwards.


----------



## Wrestlinfan35

*WWE Wrestlemania 27*
_Undertaker vs. Triple H_ - ****3/4


----------



## Chismo

The Undertaker vs Triple H ****1/2

Motherfucking phenomenal!


----------



## WillTheBloody

*WWE - WrestleMania XXVII*
The Undertaker vs. Triple H - *****1/2*

The whole show's been enjoyable by the way...even the very brief stuff with Snooki.


----------



## Rickey

HHH/Taker WM27, good match BUT I thought it became overkill after the 3 pedigrees and 1 tombstone. Prefer the WM25 and 26 matches against HBK but yeah it's worth a look.


----------



## Corey

As everyone is gonna post in the next 24 hours:

*Wrestlemania 27 - No Holds Barred*
The Undertaker vs. Triple H - ****3/4

Also, Randy Orton vs. CM Punk - ***3/4 Loved it.


----------



## dele

WWE Wrestlemania 27

Edge vs Del Rio - *** 3/4 (A few rough spots, but very very enjoyable)

Rhodes vs Mysterio - **** (Really good effort)

Orton vs Punk *** 1/2 (Really a testament to how well Punk carried Orton)

HHH vs Undertaker **** 1/2 (Breathless match)

Cena vs Miz * 1/2 (1/2 for the match, * for The Rock)


----------



## silver kyle

I'm still undecided on HHH vs. Taker. It was brutal as hell; and even more so when they weren't doing their finishers. I seriously thought Tripps had broken his left wrist or hand after Taker threw him off the announcers table. I also legit thought that the streak was over when HHH gave Taker the pedigree.

****-****1/4.

What did everyone else think about Punk/Orton? Not MOTY material, but it was about ***1/2-***3/4 for me. Second best match of the night.


----------



## ddog121

Triple H v. Undertaker ****3/4

Storytelling at its finish. Dead spots kept this from *****.


----------



## Sephiroth

Wrestlemania XXVII
*World Heavyweight Championship*: Edge (c) vs. Alberto Del Rio - ****
Rey Mysterio vs. Cody Rhodes -* ****
The Big Show, Kane, Santino and Kofi Kingston vs. The Corre (Wade Barrett, Heath Slater, Justin Gabriel and Ezekiel Jackson) - *DUD*
Randy Orton vs. CM Punk -* *** 1/2*
Jerry Lawler vs. Michael Cole - **1/2*
The Undertaker vs. Triple H - ***** 1/2*
John Morrison, Trish Stratus and Snooki vs. Dolph Ziggler and LayCool - *1/2**
*WWE Championship*: The Miz(c) vs. John Cena - ****


----------



## Rickey

Yeah Rhodes/Mysterio was pretty fun too. Didn't see all of Edge/Del Rio but most of it, Punk/Orton also nice.


----------



## The REAL MP

Oh, jeez. 

No MOTYC at this year's Mania or at the ROH shows (haven't seen the DGUSA yet) but gosh there was a hell of a lot of really good stuff.


----------



## SHIRLEY

Judging by the ratings for HHH-Taker, I need to permanently avoid this thread. People seem to get gratification from creating near-fivestar ratings out of any slight opportunity that's handed to them. As if massively overrating things validates them as a wrestling fan or something.

The match was a clumsy spotfest with a couple of really nice false finishes, a lot of playing for time and not much else. There was even a long period, during the final submission, where HHH had Taker pinned for about a ten count. If you're rating this at near to five stars, then how do you rate their matches from the days when they were performing at their peak and WWE actually gave a shit?

Overall, it was comfortably the laziest Wrestlemania I've ever seen.


----------



## -Mystery-

^Sounds like a bunch of elitist bullshit tbh.


----------



## WillTheBloody

Shirley Crabtree III said:


> Judging by the ratings for HHH-Taker, I need to permanently avoid this thread.


You know, you could just avoid the thread WITHOUT telling us....but that wasn't the point, was it?


----------



## Caponex75

HHH vs. Undertaker was better than anything on the ROh card......and I mean that in the most respectful way.


----------



## silver kyle

Taker vs. HHH was such a weird match. I want to say it's awesome but I also want to say it's overated and not that great. I definitely don't think its worth *****, or ****3/4. And both matches that Shawn Michaels had with the Undertaker were better.

It is still worth watching though. The hella hot crowd, the brutality and intensity, and the emotions from men during the nearfalls were spot on. It's just too bad there wasn't more in between the spots and finishers.


----------



## SHIRLEY

-Mystery- said:


> ^Sounds like a bunch of elitist bullshit tbh.


Elitist? Everyone in the Wrestlemania thread shit on the show. The live crowd shit on the show. I, independently, thought it was one of the messiest major wrestling shows in living memory. Yet people in here have had their 4.5 snowflakes ready and waiting for Taker's match for the past 12 months so they're doling it out arbitrarily. I don't get the point. According to some regulars in these threads, there's a industry-changing match on every WWE PPV.

It frustrates me that fans' standards have lowered so much that WWE are allowed to trot out a show like tonight's and charge extortionate prices for it and people just play along as if it's always been this way.



WillTheBloody said:


> You know, you could just avoid the thread WITHOUT telling us....but that wasn't the point, was it?


Nah. I decided to express my opinion and give you some food for thought, in the process.



Caponex75 said:


> HHH vs. Undertaker was better than anything on the ROh card......and I mean that in the most respectful way.


If an indy company did a match like that people would call it a "garbage indy spotfest full of MOOVZ". In terms of structure and content it wasn't much different to Strong vs. Homicide from 9AS. Its just the context of what Taker's streak means that somehow bumps up the star rating, regardless of what actually goes on in the match.

-

Anyway, here's my ratings:

Rapping midget: ***1/2
85-year-old woman talking about jizz: ****3/4
1mins 8-man tag match: ******
Bryan Danielson and Sheamus getting a big thankyou for busting their asses for the past year: ********
Commentator winning in a Dusty finish: ************************
Triple H walking out of the match selling as if a mosquito just bit him on the arm: (need to re-watch)


----------



## BalooUpoo

Shirley Crabtree III said:


> Its just the context of what Taker's streak means that somehow bumps up the star rating, regardless of what actually goes on in the match.


Story and Character is everything. Locking in a headlock better than someone else is irrelevant.



Shirley Crabtree III said:


> Commentator winning in a Dusty finish: ************************


That's how many stars I would give that match. Cole triumphant over King and his rotten Divas. You see that sl*t Sunny at the joke of a HOF, she is garbage!
__________________
I am the Miz's biggest fan and I am awesome!







​


----------



## Boom Baby

*DGUSA: Mercury Rising 2011 iPPV*

Pac vs Tozawa - ****1/4
YAMATO vs AA - ****1/2


----------



## SHIRLEY

BalooUpoo said:


> Story and Character is everything. Locking in a headlock better than someone else is irrelevant.


Locking in a headlock a certain way is a plot device that furthers a story and showcases a character, genius.


----------



## Boom Baby

Blood Warriors (CIMA, Naruki Doi & Ricochet) VS Ronin (Chuck Taylor, Johnny Gargano & Rich Swann) - ***3/4-**** Not sure yet.


----------



## DFUSCMAN

Taker vs Trips was a finisher spotfest.

But damn, they got me emotionally involved in a match I did not care about at all going into the night.

I actually thought the streak could have ended at the triple h tombstone to taker. You could feel the emotion.

Not a wrestling classic at all, a spotfest, not a good bit of psychology, but a damn emotional match that made me care about the match.

Usually a spotfest is a major turn off for any wrestling fan, but there was something different about this one......it just was i don't know how to explain it...


----------



## BalooUpoo

Shirley Crabtree III said:


> Locking in a headlock a certain way is a plot device that furthers a story and showcases a character, genius.


It's action not a plot device. Action that is used to tell stories with characters.
__________________
I am the Miz's biggest fan and I am awesome!







​


----------



## C-Cool

The Undertaker vs. HHH match was a spotfest, but they could handle that because their spots are more "respected". Wrestler/character attachment boosted the star ratings, like HBK/Flair in 2008.

Four stars at best, for me. But an entertaining one.

I'm not letting the entertaining part of the match cloud my judgement. That wasn't even the best match of this weekend, never mind the year.


----------



## silver kyle

Shirley Crabtree III said:


> If an indy company did a match like that people would call it a "garbage indy spotfest full of MOOVZ". In terms of structure and content it wasn't much different to Strong vs. Homicide from 9AS. Its just the context of what Taker's streak means that somehow bumps up the star rating, regardless of what actually goes on in the match.


While I do agree that HHH/Taker seems to be getting a little bit too high of praise, I'd say that the emotion, crowd involvment and overall spots were much better than Strong and Homicides match.

I think the reason why people tend to rate the past 3 Wrestlemania matches with the Undertaker so highly is the streak is something to actually care for. The world titles mean nothing nowdays. Sure we get a little excited or upset when someone wins/loses, but they don't mean as much as they used to. The streak however, is at 19-0, and one loss ends it all. It isn't just someone winning a title for a few months. It also isn't just a regular title win, since it's only defended once a year.

Not to mention that the wrestlers go all out, and the emotion they create from the match is so easy to get into. Undertaker rarely ever looks like he's beaten, but he nearly looked dead after this match. He could barely sit up, and Triple H pretty much had him beat. Hell, Taker tried his last attempt of a move, and Hunter just looked at him and basically said, no, this isn't happening. Triple H was a beast in this match. The only reason why he lost the match was because he wasn perfectly positioned for the Hells Gate.

I don't know, it's a really hard match to rate. I'm still unsure of how good or bad it is. I think it is something that needs to be seen this year, but kind of unsure on how high of the priority list it should be.


----------



## Nervosa

Shirley Crabtree III said:


> Judging by the ratings for HHH-Taker, I need to permanently avoid this thread. People seem to get gratification from creating near-fivestar ratings out of any slight opportunity that's handed to them. As if massively overrating things validates them as a wrestling fan or something.


Haven't seen Trips/Taker yet, but this is so true. This is the exact reason people gave Davey/Tyler five stars last year, and just pretended the botches and pointless run-in didn't happen.


----------



## Caponex75

Shirley Crabtree III said:


> If an indy company did a match like that people would call it a "garbage indy spotfest full of MOOVZ". In terms of structure and content it wasn't much different to Strong vs. Homicide from 9AS. Its just the context of what Taker's streak means that somehow bumps up the star rating, regardless of what actually goes on in the match.


If you could show the past rating where everyone has rated every Taker streak match from wrestlemania matches five stars before HBK than I'd give this argument to you. Difference between this and some "indy garbage spotfest" was this built around emotion, drama, and storytelling. They skipped the foreplay and started throwing bombs at each other especially Undertaker who was getting MAJORLY disrespected by HHH who just out striked him in the beginning(No one really out strikes the Undertaker). I would in fact compare this match to Kobashi/Misawa 98 with HHH being Misawa where although Misawa had damn near murdered Kobashi to death, Kobashi would just not die. The match had played to exactly what the promos built around with HHH BEING A REMORSELESS muthaf^%#@, giving the Undertaker one of the worst beating in WWE history, doing things that are obviously banned from WWE, and even resorted to putting Taker down with his own freaking finisher(NO ONE has hit Taker with his own finisher since 1997 I believe) when all of Triple H's failed. The fact that I could tell there were two different personalities at work in the match and it felt like a match between two different characters instead of bland fest further proves it was far more than a spotfest.


----------



## jawbreaker

Nervosa said:


> Haven't seen Trips/Taker yet, but this is so true. This is the exact reason people gave Davey/Tyler five stars last year, and just pretended the botches and pointless run-in didn't happen.


Come on, we've been over this. Davey/Tyler wasn't *****, but I have it at ****3/4. The run-in was pointless and stupid and killed the flow of the match for a couple minutes, but they covered for the botch well enough that it didn't break my suspension of disbelief for more than a couple seconds.

Also, I'm watching Trips/Taker and the rest of Mania today. Will report back once I've seen it.

And nothing from either ROH show (or any ROH show so far this year, I'm all caught up now) is topping Sekimoto/Hidaka. Which is sad because Sekimoto/Hidaka had some glaring flaws and I only have it at ****1/4. I'll probably do some sort of full review after class.


----------



## -Mystery-

Shirley Crabtree III said:


> Elitist? Everyone in the Wrestlemania thread shit on the show. The live crowd shit on the show. I, independently, thought it was one of the messiest major wrestling shows in living memory. Yet people in here have had their 4.5 snowflakes ready and waiting for Taker's match for the past 12 months so they're doling it out arbitrarily. I don't get the point. According to some regulars in these threads, there's a industry-changing match on every WWE PPV.
> 
> It frustrates me that fans' standards have lowered so much that WWE are allowed to trot out a show like tonight's and charge extortionate prices for it and people just play along as if it's always been this way.


I'm not talking about what you or anyone else thought about the show. I'm talking about this,



> *Judging by the ratings for HHH-Taker, I need to permanently avoid this thread.* People seem to get gratification from creating near-fivestar ratings out of any slight opportunity that's handed to them. *As if massively overrating things validates them as a wrestling fan or something.*


That's elitist bullshit. 

It amuses me that you take the time out to run people down for something down as insignificant as star ratings, as if they mean fuck all. Don't agree with their opinion? That's dandy, but to spew bullshit like "oh I should avoid this thread now because you liked something I thought sucked" is just hot garbage. Step down off your soapbox because I hate to break this to you, but other than a handful of people, nobody gives a fuck.


----------



## antoniomare007

Taker vs HHH was incredible, waaaaayyy better than expected. Personally, I don't give two fucks about how you create drama and believable nearfalls, as long as you do it and have the crowd going apeshit, I'm going to be a fan of the match.

I still put the Big Japan vs All Japan 3/21 tag over the Mania match (i'm probably going to be the only one, lol) but it was still amazing.


----------



## Alan4L

Taker/HHH ****1/2

Incredible drama. Really thought HHH was winning after the Tombstone.


----------



## dele

antoniomare007 said:


> Taker vs HHH was incredible, waaaaayyy better than expected. Personally, I don't give two fucks about how you create drama and believable nearfalls, as long as you do it and have the crowd going apeshit, I'm going to be a fan of the match.
> 
> I still put the Big Japan vs All Japan 3/21 tag over the Mania match (i'm probably going to be the only one, lol) but it was still amazing.


If it's BJW, I'll probably mark hard for it as well.


----------



## dele

Shirley Crabtree III said:


> Judging by the ratings for HHH-Taker, I need to permanently avoid this thread.


I'll keep my fingers crossed that this actually happens.


----------



## New Blood

*Undertaker vs. Triple H [WWE 4/3]*

I've pretty much stopped watching current wrestling as I find it quite boring but I had to see this match. I loved the intensity of this match and that it felt like they were going to pull out all the stops for this although it was disappointing that there was no blood but what can you do? I thought the whole false finishes and finisher-fest worked for this match as the WWE only does it a couple times a year, if that and plus the false finishes added to the emotion of the match. The indie matches can't compare as they do it in damn near every match and plus, their shows aren't WRESTLEMANIA and the indie style needs to change drastically cause it's just silly at this point. The only thing that hurt the match in my opinion was the stalling. They could have easily done some more moves but then again, it's Triple H and that's what he's known for.


----------



## dj161

Edge vs Del Rio - ***1/4
Taker vs HHH - ****1/4


----------



## SHIRLEY

Caponex75 said:


> NO ONE has hit Taker with his own finisher since 1997 I believe


LOL he feuds with Kane every six months. This is exactly what I'm talking about. People trust WWE's bullshit, rather than trusting their own faculties.



dele said:


> I'll keep my fingers crossed that this actually happens.


You liked it because they hit each other with stuff, didn't you.


----------



## geraldinhio

Taker/HHH-Great brawl ,some really big spots that the crowd went ape shit for.The emotion was immense.Taker being hit with the chair over and over again and the finishing sequence with hell's gate was insane.Taker's selling was great too.Far better than I expected .****1/2 My only complaint was the predictable exchange of finisher that we knew weren't gonna finish the match.

Del Rio/Edge -Edge looked far better than he has in recent months ,Del Rio worked over the arm perfectly.Great close finsh at the end when Clay hit Edge's arm off the ring post and looked in the cross armbreaker.Great opening match.***3/4

Mysterio/Rhodes.Rey was great as usual ,Cody really stepped up too.Loved the finish ,the right person went over .***1/2

Punk/Orton -Loved this ,Punk's best match in quite some time.Some great psychology ,innovative leg work and told a great story.Randy was better than usual and Punk's mannerisms had me very entertained through out.****


----------



## Violent By Design

Shirley Crabtree III said:


> LOL he feuds with Kane every six months. This is exactly what I'm talking about. People trust WWE's bullshit, rather than trusting their own faculties.
> 
> 
> 
> You liked it because they hit each other with stuff, didn't you.


Kane doesn't even tombstone Undertaker anymore. And let's be real dude, the point totally went over your head. Wow, Kane hit Undertaker with a tombstone, maybe because Kane's finisher is a tombstone? Obviously Kane is an exception given his entire gimmick revolves around being the anti-Undertaker. HHH tombstoning Undertaker meant a shitload, and it was a very believable near fall, at least for many people including myself.


----------



## M.S.I.I.

There probably is some truth to a double standard when it comes to spotfests. I don't like getting caught up in that because as long as I'm entertained and really have no idea who's winning, I'm fine.

HHH/Taker was good, but when HHH was beating him senseless I was still waiting for Taker to win. The streak is a gift and a curse. It's great because it's usually the best match on the card, but it sucks because you know Taker isn't losing. The Tombstone was probably meant to be the "OMG he's gonna lose~!" spot, but didn't work for me. 

Still a good match and the only thing worth talking about at Mania, but it wasn't great. Edge/Taker had a better match at WM24.


----------



## dele

Shirley Crabtree III said:


> You liked it because they hit each other with stuff, didn't you.


You're goddamn right I did.


----------



## Corey

*PWG - Kurt RussellReunion II*

Low Ki vs. Davey Richards - ****
_Stiff match as you'd expect. Nice change for once to not see Davey get beat down for the whole match and kick out 36 times to ultimately win. Definitely different to see him as the aggressor and work as a heel. The counters to both guys signature moves was really cool to see, definitely creative. Great match._

Chris Hero vs. Kevin Steen - ****1/4
_Really really enjoyed this. Another stiff match with a fucking awesome finishing sequence. I miss Steen in ROH._

*PWG World Championship*
Claudio Castagnoli(c) vs. El Generico - ****1/4
_Claudio vs. any high flyer is gonna be great, but the chemistry he has with Generico is unmatched. The match they had in the finals of the ROH Race to the Top Tournament was fantastic and this one was as well. Didn't know if it was gonna be a good idea with Claudio working on the knee but Generico sold it the best he could considering his moveset and I was glad to see it played into the finish. More awesome counters with a fantastic finishing sequence. _​


----------



## TheAce

Stuff I saw this weekend, still have yet to watch Wrestlemania.

ROH - CS CHapter 1

Davey Richards Vs Roddy Strong ****
Kings Vs WGTT **** (WCW 91/92 feel splashed with modern tag moments, it was slow so it'll be slept on but great stuff)
Chris Daniels Vs Eddie Edwards **** 1/4 (I totally bought into daniels winning)

ROH - CS Chapter 2

ANX vs Briscoes **** 1/4 + (This match may increase in rating once I re-watch, Briscoes as heels are SO MUCH BETTER)
WGTT vs American Wolves ****

Honorable mention - Both matches involving Cole/O'Reilly, nothing MOTY worthy but a breakout weekend for them, especially the opening match of Chapter 2 vs The Kings

---------------------

DGUSA iPPV

Aries Vs Yamato - **** 1/4 + (this will probably increase on a re-watch, was tired when I saw it)
6-Man Blood Warriors Vs Ronin - **** 1/4 (ALOT of fun, Ronin is the one faction that has me marking)

PAC vs Tozawa - *** 1/2 - I put this here cause I feel like it's really getting overrated and I LOVE me some Tozawa, crap ending IMO.

The first half of the iPPV had me really wondering what the hell I was doing watching this show but the last 3 matches pulled it out of the fire.


----------



## Chismo

Shirley Crabtree III said:


> Judging by the ratings for HHH-Taker, I need to permanently avoid this thread. People seem to get gratification from creating near-fivestar ratings out of any slight opportunity that's handed to them. As if massively overrating things validates them as a wrestling fan or something.
> 
> The match was a clumsy spotfest with a couple of really nice false finishes, a lot of playing for time and not much else. There was even a long period, during the final submission, where HHH had Taker pinned for about a ten count. If you're rating this at near to five stars, then how do you rate their matches from the days when they were performing at their peak and WWE actually gave a shit?
> 
> Overall, it was comfortably the laziest Wrestlemania I've ever seen.


Actually, HBK/Taker from last two Manias were spot and finisher fests. This was much better. Yeah, I think there was one Pedigree too much. I honestly didn't think they could deliver, the build was weak, they were rusty, but the went balls out and delivered. Triple H did just he said he was going to do - he's not Shawn The Pussy, he's not emotional, he's mercyless mother fucker and he had that approach. He outpunched him, he hit him with 3 Pedigrees, but nothing, he beats him with the chair multiple times, but nothing again. Taker wont die. 
And then comes hands down the best false finish I've seen in years. I mean, the build to that with Hunter stalking and destroying Hunter, then telling him to stay down (excellent callback to WM26), then hitting the tombstone - I thought THAT's IT! He got him! And bang! He got out! That's the closest threat to the streak you'll ever see. It really put over The Undertaker as indestructible. I also liked Hunter's facial expressions after that chair and Pedigree beatdown, when Taker just didn't want to stay down. They played their characters, created drama, and the action was good, I don't see what't wrong with that.
It's just that people hate Triple H (I dislike him too) so they are not ready to acknowledge the fact that he wrestled an instant classic.


----------



## Emperor DC

I'm with Crabtree and Nervosa. 

Maybe my standards are too high having seen some great wrestling on Friday and Saturday, but a 28 minute match with a 15 minute finishing sequence, wrapped up in three minute breaks inbetween finishing movies and kick outs at 2 and 3/4's is not my idea of a MOTY, or anywhere close to it.

They went totally the other way in the aspect of how to sell the injuries and so on, and by the end, I was just in total laughter at it all. All it encompassed was the bad of what the WWE thinks a bit Wrestlemania has got to be, similar to HBK/Taker I (The second was actually worth more praise).

I'd take Edge/Del Rio and Rhodes/Mysterio anyday of the week if you offered it to me.


----------



## Chismo

Emperor DC said:


> I'm with Crabtree and Nervosa.
> 
> *Maybe my standards are too high having seen some great wrestling on Friday and Saturday*, but a 28 minute match with a 15 minute finishing sequence, wrapped up in three minute breaks inbetween finishing movies and kick outs at 2 and 3/4's is not my idea of a MOTY, or anywhere close to it.
> 
> They went totally the other way in the aspect of how to sell the injuries and so on, and by the end, I was just in total laughter at it all. All it encompassed was the bad of what the WWE thinks a bit Wrestlemania has got to be, similar to HBK/Taker I (The second was actually worth more praise).
> 
> I'd take Edge/Del Rio and Rhodes/Mysterio anyday of the week if you offered it to me.


I ordered and saw both Chapter 1 and Chapter 2, but still enjoyed the fuck out of HHH/Taker. The only match good as HHH/Taker was The Briscoes/ANX (****1/2 for both).


----------



## New Blood

Upon rewatching the match, the only really big flaw that I saw with it is when Triple H was constantly stalling. When he was battering Taker with the chair like Austin did to the Rock, that was cool but basically sitting down for a couple minutes really killed the pacing of the match. I'm sure the crowd was pretty into the match but the micing was awful.

I can also see why Triple H used so many finishers. Since Taker is a unique character and is practically unbeatable, Hunter has to do everything in his power and basically nuke Taker repeatedly to try to keep him down.

I really doubt that this will be the best match I see all year but this is really good for what it is and I was entertained. I can see why people would love AND hate this match. For the record, I highly prefer the Undertaker/Michaels matches. On the flip side, I absolutely hated Tyler Black vs. Davey Richards from last year as well.


----------



## Chismo

New Blood said:


> I can also see why Triple H used so many finishers. Since Taker is a unique character and is practically unbeatable, Hunter has to do everything in his power and basically nuke Taker repeatedly to try to keep him down.


Exactly this.


----------



## SHIRLEY

JoeRulz said:


> It's just that people hate Triple H (I dislike him too) so they are not ready to acknowledge the fact that he wrestled an instant classic.


Triple H vs. Cactus Jack from Royal Rumble 2000 was twice as good as this match and, arguably, a five star match. 

This is nothing to do with an anti-HHH bias. I was a big fan of him when he was in his prime. I'm just not allowing Vince McMahon to kid me into thinking that yet another HHH-Taker match is hugely historically significant event. This was a lazy replacement for what could have been Taker vs. Sting - a match that truly would have meant something.



Violent By Design said:


> Kane doesn't even tombstone Undertaker anymore. And let's be real dude, the point totally went over your head. Wow, Kane hit Undertaker with a tombstone, maybe because Kane's finisher is a tombstone? Obviously Kane is an exception given his entire gimmick revolves around being the anti-Undertaker. HHH tombstoning Undertaker meant a shitload, and it was a very believable near fall, at least for many people including myself.


I'm pretty sure Kane tombstoned Undertaker _at least_ as recently as within the past nine months or so. I'm sure others have done it too, I was just using Kane as the example, since that was enough to prove that particular point wrong.

I didn't say that the spot wasn't a really good near fall. In fact, I said the opposite in a previous post. I'm just saying that someone using someone else's finisher doesn't automatically make a match a mindblowing, industry-changing, 5* match. It's something that often happens in longer matches. Eddie Edwards and Christopher Daniels did the same thing recently, in a better match. Nigel McGuinness used Bryan Danielson's shit in matches that didn't even involve Bryan Danielson.



> Actually, HBK/Taker from last two Manias were spot and finisher fests.


Nah, they just had a different match structure to your average match. IIRC the first one started out with finishers and then went around the houses to get back to finishers again. Regardless, probably neither of those were really 5* matches. They were just great matches that stood out amongst the sea of sewage that WWE have been serving up for a number of years now. 

I find it annoying that some people were giving matches from this year's EC PPV close to five stars. The same thing happens with every show. It's just a joke and shows a complete lack of perspective.


----------



## Emperor DC

Shirley Crabtree III said:


> Triple H vs. Cactus Jack from Royal Rumble 2000 was twice as good as this match and, arguably, a five star match.
> 
> This is nothing to do with an anti-HHH bias. I was a big fan of him when he was in his prime. I'm just not allowing Vince McMahon to kid me into thinking that yet another HHH-Taker match is hugely historically significant event. This was a lazy replacement for what could have been Taker vs. Sting - a match that truly would have meant something.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm pretty sure Kane tombstoned Undertaker _at least_ as recently as within the past nine months or so. I'm sure others have done it too, I was just using Kane as the example, since that was enough to prove that particular point wrong.
> 
> I didn't say that the spot wasn't a really good near fall. In fact, I said the opposite in a previous post. I'm just saying that someone using someone else's finisher doesn't automatically make a match a mindblowing, industry-changing, 5* match. It's something that often happens in longer matches. Eddie Edwards and Christopher Daniels did the same thing recently, in a better match. Nigel McGuinness used Bryan Danielson's shit in matches that didn't even involve Bryan Danielson.
> 
> 
> 
> Nah, they just had a different match structure to your average match. IIRC the first one started out with finishers and then went around the houses to get back to finishers again. Regardless, probably neither of those were really 5* matches. They were just great matches that stood out amongst the sea of sewage that WWE have been serving up for a number of years now.
> 
> I find it annoying that some people were giving matches from this year's EC PPV close to five stars. The same thing happens with every show. It's just a joke and shows a complete lack of perspective.


In the WWE sense/style/whatever, it's probably what they feel is right.

It's not, but you can see the thought process.

The idea of a great match in the WWE is different than in Ring of Honor and in Japan, for example.


----------



## Nervosa

jawbreaker said:


> Come on, we've been over this. Davey/Tyler wasn't *****, but I have it at ****3/4. The run-in was pointless and stupid and killed the flow of the match for a couple minutes, but they covered for the botch well enough that it didn't break my suspension of disbelief for more than a couple seconds.


I wasn't trying to be redundant; I was just making a point alongside Crabtree's: people are SO DESPERATE to see something great that they end up overrating it, and Tyler/Davey, as good as it is, was a prime example of people straight up pretending like imperfections didn't even happen just to be able to rate it highly. 

If you remember, I gave it ****1/2. I'm FINE ok with people who give it ****3/4, even though I disagree. I'm NOT OK with it getting five stars because of the clear, unavoidable, imperfections, which you wisely acknowledged.


----------



## antoniomare007

dele said:


> You're goddamn right I did.










dele


----------



## -Mystery-

Shirley, you're more deluded than I thought if you think a broken down Sting could have produced half the match that Triple H did last night? Would it have been a great spectacle? Sure, but that doesn't mean shit in terms of how the match actually turns out. 

Just hop off the soapbox and quit bitching about something as frivolous as star ratings. People enjoyed something you think sucked, get the fuck over it and move on. You aren't convincing anyone otherwise so why the fuck are you still typing? You're too warped into ROH that you can't see anything beyond that, it's embarrassing.


----------



## SHIRLEY

Emperor DC said:


> In the WWE sense/sty;e/whatever, it's probably what they feel is right.
> 
> It's not, but you can see the thought process.
> 
> The idea of a great match in the WWE is different than in Ring of Honor and in Japan, for example.


Yeah, I think my problem, maybe, begins and ends with the whole thing/product/style itself. It's just shit compared to what pre-Bischoff WCW used to do, ROH has done at it's best, ECW did, the old Florida territories did, Stampede Wrestling did, a lot of Japan companies did and still do and WWE/F did, before they monopolized the industry and were able to start watering the content down and driving the prices up.

If you ignore everything else _but_ recent WWE, then HHH vs. Taker might look better, that's a good point. However, as far as psychology goes, I don't even think that this WWE match had the WWE crowd as much as people are giving it credit for. It got the live crowd's attention big time at certain points but there were some major lulls (not to be confused with the lulz of the rest of the show). I doubt that the PPV audience felt as though they got value for money.



Nervosa said:


> I wasn't trying to be redundant; I was just making a point alongside Crabtree's: people are SO DESPERATE to see something great that they end up overrating it, and Tyler/Davey, as good as it is, was a prime example of people straight up pretending like imperfections didn't even happen just to be able to rate it highly.
> 
> If you remember, I gave it ****1/2. I'm FINE ok with people who give it ****3/4, even though I disagree. I'm NOT OK with it getting five stars because of the clear, unavoidable, imperfections, which you wisely acknowledged.


I loved Davey-Tyler. I loved the whole overall feel of that show. I thought it was Tyler's best ever singles match, up to that date. I though it was a big deal for ROH, in terms of the whole iPPV thing...

...but, again (IIRC), I felt uncomfortable with everyone throwing "5* match" around. Tyler was...what...a 22/23 year old kid? Let's give him at least another decade before we start comparing him to the best of all time.


EDIT:



-Mystery- said:


> Shirley, you're more deluded than I thought if you think a broken down Sting could have produced half the match that Triple H did last night? Would it have been a great spectacle? Sure, but that doesn't mean shit in terms of how the match actually turns out.


How is Triple H any less broken down than Sting? Triple H isn't the young hip guy from DX anymore. He's a middle aged man with a history of serious injuries. Lots of people said he looked gassed early on last night.

How does a spectacle not mean shit? Ambience and, god forbid, an actual newsworthy story are what makes for good entertainment.



> Just hop off the soapbox and quit bitching about something as frivolous as star ratings. People enjoyed something you think sucked, get the fuck over it and move on. You aren't convincing anyone otherwise so why the fuck are you still typing?


What have star ratings got to do with enjoyment? If two guys I don't like have a 5* match, I'll take my hat off to them. It doesn't mean I'll enjoy it more than an average match between two guys that I do relate to. For the record, I didn't think this match "sucked".

I appear to have a couple other people that share my thoughts, that otherwise might not have said anything. You might wanted to stop ranting and start thinking. I'm not sure what you're mad about. Are you Vince McMahon's guard dog?



> You're too warped into ROH that you can't see anything beyond that, it's embarrassing.


Erm...no. I just use ROH as an example because it's a bank of knowledge, that I have close at hand to tap into, and it's contemporary. As I've said above, it's far from the only promotion that's ever put out a better wrestling product than current WWE. You're completely wide of the mark there.


----------



## -Mystery-

Shirley Crabtree III said:


> How is Triple H any less broken down than Sting? Triple H isn't the young hip guy from DX anymore. He's a middle aged man with a history of serious injuries.
> 
> 
> 
> What have star ratings got to do with enjoyment? If two guys I don't like have a 5* match, I'll take my hat off to them. It doesn't mean I'll enjoy it more than an average match between two guys that I do relate to.
> 
> I appear to have a couple other people that share my thoughts, that otherwise might not have said anything. You might wanted to stop ranting and start thinking. I'm not sure what you're mad about. Are you Vince McMahon's guard dog?
> 
> 
> 
> Erm...no. I just use ROH as an example because it's a a bank of knowledge, that I have close at hand to tap into, and it's contemporary. As I've said above, it's far from the only promotion that's ever put out a better wrestling product than current WWE.


Sting hasn't had a great match in 15 years, there's the difference between him and Triple H. Triple H didn't spend the course of last year embarrassing himself by wrestling with a t-shirt on either.

You seem to be butthurt over people's ratings of Triple H/Taker. Why? I got no idea. 

Sure, you got a couple people to agree with you, but news flash, you're still in the minority. 

I still don't understand comments like, "I might have to stop visiting this thread if you people think Triple H/Taker was that good". It's just elitist bullshit. No reason to go and try to run down people's opinions for the last few pages because they liked something you didn't. 

I was once like you, too entrenched in ROH too see anything else beyond it. Maybe you'll wake up one day and not hold everything to the same standard as the 'almighty' ROH. Just too much of a critic to be a fan.


----------



## New Blood

We can all agree that nothing's better in current wrestling than IWRG.

That's what this thread needs more of. More lucha. And Dick Togo.


----------



## sXsCanadianFansXs

WWE Wrestlemania 

Del Rio/Edge ***

Rhodes/Mysterio ***1/2
Mysterio does not get enough credit. The internet backlash is stupid as he always puts in a ton of effort and is an effective storyteller. Loved this match.

Orton/Punk ***1/4

HHH/Undertaker ****1/4
My initial rating was ***1/2. I rewatched it a day later and enjoyed it a lot more. They started really fast with a lot of huge moves. Now I know there will be those that say it was a finisher fest and that certainly fits... but they can get away with it. Two indy guys would get booed out of the building but because Undertaker has the most prized possession (the streak) and HHH brought his A-game, this was fantastic because of the drama and crowd reactions. Not even close to a match of the year (or Taker's matches with Michaels) but a worthy match for the big stage. They lived up to my high expectations.


----------



## SHIRLEY

-Mystery- said:


> Triple H didn't spend the course of last year embarrassing himself by wrestling with a t-shirt on either.


No, he spent it not wrestling.



> Sure, you got a couple people to agree with you, but news flash, you're still in the minority.


Intelligent people tend to be a minority. In this case it isn't even a great minority. Plenty of people, in plenty of places, have said that it wasn't a near perfect match. 

Anyway, what tends to happen on message boards (especially in threads like these) is that someone posts an opinion (in this case some asterisks) and then the first people to read it go "...shit...shit...I won't be cool unless I make my opinion similar to theirs...". This goes on for a while. Then the first person who has the balls to call bullshit gets abuse, until the cavalry turn up.



> I still don't understand comments like, "I might have to stop visiting this thread if you people think Triple H/Taker was that good". It's just elitist bullshit. No reason to go and try to run down people's opinions for the last few pages because they liked something you didn't.


I didn't say I didn't like it. I said that these pesky kids don't know what a fivestar match is and we'll never see another one again if people continue to accept above average matches.



> I was once like you, too entrenched in ROH too see anything else beyond it. Maybe you'll wake up one day and not hold everything to the same standard as the 'almighty' ROH. Just too much of a critic to be a fan.


No, if I'm in a thread that's _designed for the purpose of critiquing matches_ then I'll criticise, like everyone else. Regardless of that, Taker vs. HHH wasn't a near 5* match, either in a critical sense or a mindless fun sense. You're not going to get anywhere by saying "STOP THINKING! JUST BE A FAN! SOAPBOX!".

I'm definitely not "entrenched in ROH". I've already clearly shown that to be rubbish, in previous posts on this subject.


----------



## KingCrash

*WWE Wrestlemania 27*
Undertaker vs. Triple H - No Holds Barred - ****
Better then I thought it would be considering the way Taker looked before his latest break but I didn't think it was nearly as good as either of the Taker/HBK matches. Understand why they were throwing bombs at each other early but thought the early portion was slow and didn't really have a story. Did buy Hunter winning after the tombstone and while cheesy Hunter grabbing and then dropping the sledgehammer before tapping was great.

*ROH - Honor Takes Center Stage - Night One*
Briscoes vs. Adam Cole & Kyle O'Reilly - ***3/4
Kings of Wrestling vs. Wrestling's Greatest Tag Team - ROH World Tag Team Titles - ****
Eddie Edwards vs. Christopher Daniels - ROH World Title - ***3/4

*ROH - Honor Takes Center Stage - Night Two*
Kings of Wrestling vs. Adam Cole & Kyle O'Reilly - ****
Briscoes vs. The All Night Express - ****
Wrestling's Greatest Tag Team vs. The American Wolves - ****

*DGUSA - Mercury Rising 2011*
Akira Tozawa vs. PAC - Open The Brave Gate - ****
Austin Aries vs. YAMATO - Open The Freedom Gate - ****1/4
Ronin vs. Blood Warriors - ****

*DGUSA - Open The Ultimate Gate*
Yoshino & PAC vs. Doi & CIMA - Open The United Gate - ****
Akira Tozawa vs. YAMATO - Open The Freedom Gate - ****1/2


----------



## Sephiroth

Man, I must have been gone a long time because when I used to post in this section, SCTIII did not have a prem membership and was a total noob. Whatever happened to those days? I remember him giggling like a schoolgirl over the same stuff we did. Now he's a bitter old man. Bitter...bitter old man.

Dele, you rule. Would you watch Big Japan Porn Wrestling if they hit each other in the junk instead?


----------



## seabs

antoniomare007 said:


> Taker vs HHH was incredible, waaaaayyy better than expected. Personally, I don't give two fucks about how you create drama and believable nearfalls, as long as you do it and have the crowd going apeshit, I'm going to be a fan of the match.
> 
> I still put the Big Japan vs All Japan 3/21 tag over the Mania match (i'm probably going to be the only one, lol) but it was still amazing.


*Nah I definitely would. Didn't think Taker/Trips was bad, it was had a great big Mania match feel about it but it dragged a lot and the way they did the finisher kickouts bothered me more than anything. For example was it necessary for Trips to go straight into the cover and hook the leg off each pedigree? Was a good match but not MOTYC material. Cody/Rey was the best match on the show I thought. Hopefully the DGUSA iPPV has some matches better than just really good and are somewhat memorable. Mania definitely didn't imo and the 2 ROH iPPVs had a couple of really good matches but nothing great that I'd recommend people make time to see.*


----------



## silver kyle

Shirley Crabtree III said:


> Anyway, what tends to happen on message boards (especially in threads like these) is that someone posts an opinion (in this case some asterisks) and then the first people to read it go "...shit...shit...I won't be cool unless I make my opinion similar to theirs...". This goes on for a while. Then the first person who has the balls to call bullshit gets abuse, until the cavalry turn up.


I agree with this. I'm always afraid after a big match happens that we're going to see a crap load of high ratings here. It always starts off with one high rating and snowballs. Then again, I think I rate everything a lot lower than most people do here.

I think it can also work the other way around as well though. Lets say if a bunch of people see a match, and rate it very high, and someone sees this and thinks to themselves that isn't possible, and then watch the match afterwards, then we have them rating the match very low. I'm not saying you did this since I don't even know what you'd rate it, but it seems like others have done this before.



> I didn't say I didn't like it. I said that these pesky kids don't know what a fivestar match is and we'll never see another one again if people continue to accept above average matches.


I don't think anyone has given it the full 5 stars here though...?


----------



## SHIRLEY

Sephiroth said:


> Man, I must have been gone a long time because when I used to post in this section, SCTIII did not have a prem membership and was a total noob. Whatever happened to those days? I remember him giggling like a schoolgirl over the same stuff we did. Now he's a bitter old man. Bitter...bitter old man.


Hahaha. I remember you talking about how much you hated ROH and then coming sneaking back into the ROH fanclub, quietly.

I definitely wouldn't have giggled like a schoolgirl over anything at this WM, not within the past 10 years of my life. Nor would you, I'm sure.


----------



## Tarfu

I seriously just reached out for the popcorn while reading through this thread. It was disappointing to realize there was nothing there.


----------



## Bubz

Man, i don't even have an opinion.


----------



## Violent By Design

The more I think about it, the higher regards I hold HHH vs Undertaker. The story and theme of it was just really powerful in my opinion. Very believable near falls, and I love how Undertaker is kinda washed up or "mortal". 

From the Undertaker's chokeslam to HHH's 2nd pedigree were the weak parts, essentially the predictable finisher kick out portion. But everything before and after that was excellent. It's better than any match I've seen except for the Seikumo/Hidaka (I think that's his name) match from Zero 1. I also loved CM Punk vs Orton from that PPV. I've only seen ROH's first PPV, but I thought it was better than all the matches on there including the Daniels vs Edwards TV title match (which I didn't think was great at all, though it was solid).


----------



## jawbreaker

*Sekimoto


----------



## Violent By Design

Shirley Crabtree III said:


> Triple H vs. Cactus Jack from Royal Rumble 2000 was twice as good as this match and, arguably, a five star match.
> 
> This is nothing to do with an anti-HHH bias. I was a big fan of him when he was in his prime. I'm just not allowing Vince McMahon to kid me into thinking that yet another HHH-Taker match is hugely historically significant event. This was a lazy replacement for what could have been Taker vs. Sting - a match that truly would have meant something.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm pretty sure Kane tombstoned Undertaker _at least_ as recently as within the past nine months or so. I'm sure others have done it too, I was just using Kane as the example, since that was enough to prove that particular point wrong.
> 
> I didn't say that the spot wasn't a really good near fall. In fact, I said the opposite in a previous post. I'm just saying that someone using someone else's finisher doesn't automatically make a match a mindblowing, industry-changing, 5* match. It's something that often happens in longer matches. Eddie Edwards and Christopher Daniels did the same thing recently, in a better match. Nigel McGuinness used Bryan Danielson's shit in matches that didn't even involve Bryan Danielson.
> 
> 
> 
> Nah, they just had a different match structure to your average match. IIRC the first one started out with finishers and then went around the houses to get back to finishers again. Regardless, probably neither of those were really 5* matches. They were just great matches that stood out amongst the sea of sewage that WWE have been serving up for a number of years now.
> 
> I find it annoying that some people were giving matches from this year's EC PPV close to five stars. The same thing happens with every show. It's just a joke and shows a complete lack of perspective.




I don't recall Kane tomb stoning Undertaker. Not that it's a big deal whether he was tombstoned or not.

You're posting in a smark thread where people here watch a bunch of different wrestling products. Yes, we all know that finisher fest are not exclusive to WM. But what you're ignoring is the WWE perspective. Mcguiness using Bryan Danielson's finishers is not nearly as dramatic as HHH tombstoning Undertaker at WM (especially when he had beaten down Undertaker so badly). The build to the tombstone I think is what made it so great as well as the stage it was presented on. 

Back to my point, we see guys kicking out of finishers very often in indie wrestling. It's just not the same type of spectacle as it is in the WWE. Wrestling promotions differ in plot (obviously), so what barring does it have if we see that stuff in ROH? Moves are booked much more differently in that company.

I actually hate matches where guys kick out of finishers. I hate it in the WWE too. And during the HHH vs Undertaker match I was kinda like "this is kinda lame, these spots are predictable". But like a lot of great matches, the middle portion was not good but the start and finish were excellent. So I give this match its due, because I felt a lot of emotion from it. The perfect match? Can't say I've seen someone say that. A great one? I'd say so, much better than any reasonable expectations that is for sure.


----------



## lewieG

Triple H vs Undertaker was around ****1/2 for me, absolutely loved it. 

Punk/Orton, Rhodes/Mysterio and Edge/Del Rio were all very enjoyable matches also. 

Also saw some of ROH Center Stage part 1, the two title matches were both very good.


----------



## Sephiroth

Just getting this off my chest early...

Wrestlemania XXVIII
The Rock vs. John Cena -* ******

Who wants to take bets now that SCT III is going to hate on us for loving that match too?


----------



## Sephiroth

Shirley Crabtree III said:


> Hahaha. I remember you talking about how much you hated ROH and then coming sneaking back into the ROH fanclub, quietly.
> 
> I definitely wouldn't have giggled like a schoolgirl over anything at this WM, not within the past 10 years of my life. Nor would you, I'm sure.


In my defense, Post Final Battle 2009 until mid last year was fucking awful with only a few great shows.


----------



## jawbreaker

If you didn't watch Epic Encounter III or Supercard of Honor V then get the fuck on that. The rest, yeah, it pretty much sucked.


----------



## Goku

M.S.I.I. said:


> Still a good match and the only thing worth talking about at Mania, but it wasn't great. Edge/Taker had a better match at WM24.


lolwat. Edge vs. Undertaker was terrible. The formula for all their matches (bad HIAC) was awful.



Shirley Crabtree III said:


> Triple H vs. Cactus Jack from Royal Rumble 2000 was twice as good as this match and, arguably, a five star match.


I think I actually prefer the Triple H vs. Undertaker match over that, but I'm not too fond of the Street Fight anyway.

Also, this post post:



Shirley Crabtree III said:


> What have star ratings got to do with enjoyment?


Correct Answer: Everything
Answer you're looking for: D'oh



> If two guys I don't like have a 5* match, I'll take my hat off to them. It doesn't mean I'll enjoy it more than an average match between two guys that I do relate to. For the record, I didn't think this match "sucked".


How can a match that you don't like be five stars? It's based entirely on the opinion of the rater.


----------



## Nervosa

Sephiroth said:


> In my defense, Post *Gabe's departure* until *Final Battle 2011* was fucking awful with only a few great shows.


Fixed.


----------



## C-Cool

Nervosa said:


> Fixed.


You mean Final Battle 2010, right?


----------



## smitlick

Nervosa said:


> Fixed.


Maybe you should watch some of the shows because Fucking Awful isn't something I'd call most of there iPPVs since Gabes left.


----------



## seancarleton77

I thought Wrestlemania as a whole does not compare to the Centre Stage shows from ROH in any category besides pyro and wasting time but at the same time Wrestlemania had some good wrestling, the booking was the shitty part, the main event was pathetic. Match of the weekend for me had to be ANX/Briscoes or Eddie vs. Daniels. Need to see DGUSA still.


----------



## SHIRLEY

Sephiroth said:


> Just getting this off my chest early...
> 
> Wrestlemania XXVIII
> The Rock vs. John Cena -* ******
> 
> Who wants to take bets now that SCT III is going to hate on us for loving that match too?


I won't be wasting my time with another John Cena match again, to even form an opinion in the first place. I wouldn't bother with that bet, if I was you.

No doubt, you'll all be saying that it was waaay better than Taker-HHH was this year. Even though you've left yourself very little room to say that.



Hohenheim of Light said:


> Correct Answer: Everything
> Answer you're looking for: D'oh
> 
> 
> 
> How can a match that you don't like be five stars? It's based entirely on the opinion of the rater.


Ever heard of dispassionate critique? No, I thought not. Do you think that Dave Meltzer gives out high ratings to only his personal favourite wrestlers?

Just because I like something, or you like something, it doesn't make it perfect. I like certain films with terrible cinematography, purely because I have some kind of personal attachment to them. I'm not delusional enough to call them perfect though. I wouldn't expect everyone else to ignore the flaws just because I relate to the story. I like Bob Dylan but he's a technically terrible singer. The girl I loved most in my life was a nutcase. I knew how to handle her but I wouldn't recommend her to anyone else. And so on...

Do you understand now?


----------



## jawbreaker

So. Triple H vs. the Undertaker. Seems to have caused some controversy here. Here are my thoughts on the match:

First off, it was entirely a finisher/kickout spotfest. Crabtree and others are right about that.

However, to criticize the match because of that is like criticizing the Divine Comedy for talking about God too much; that is to say, completely missing the point.

Going into the match, nobody thought Triple H was going to win. Nobody beats the Undertaker at WrestleMania. But Triple H was going to try. Like others have said, he's not Shawn putting his career on the line. He's got nothing to lose, he's going to go all out and try and kill Taker. And he does.

Yes, the opening portion is slow. Yes, there's a lot of stalling. But the match has the one absolutely amazing moment that entirely makes up for the slow pace. When Triple H hits Undertaker with Taker's own finisher, after several chairshots, including one to the head (is this rare in WWE nowadays? I think it is, but I don't watch WWE so I'm not sure), and three Pedigrees, and Taker kicks out. The actual kickout isn't all that notable, deep down everyone knew it was coming. The Undertaker doesn't lose at WrestleMania.

It's the way Triple H reacts to that kickout that makes the match. You can practically see his thought process after the kickout. He scurries away, thinking "holy shit, how the fuck did he kick out of that, he's not human" as the crowd pops like crazy. Hunter then decides he's got to kill it with a fucking sledgehammer, so he goes and gets the sledgehammer that is under the ring because it's WWE and there is always a sledgehammer under the ring. Whatever.

Anyway, before Triple H can use the sledgehammer to kill whatever it is that possesses the Undertaker at WrestleMania, Taker locks in Hell's Gate, and after pretty much an eternity of feeling around for the sledgehammer, Triple H finds it, but then drops it and taps out. The Undertaker doesn't lose at WrestleMania.

And then the bell rings and suddenly Taker's mortal again. He can't stand up and gets stretchered out. He's not the same as he was during the match. Something happens to him from bell to bell at WrestleMania that makes it absolutely impossible for him to lose. It's kind of eerie, honestly.

Yes, the actual wrestling kind of sucked if you look at it through the lens of having watched six hours of ROH in the two previous days. But fuck it, I thoroughly enjoyed the match despite that.

So what star rating am I giving it? I'm not. Star ratings are great for wrestling that tries to be the best scripted athletic competition, where they claim they are the best wrestling in the world. They're a quick comparison point and are excellent for that provided you are comparing two like things. But you can't rate lots of different apples, then try and rate an orange on the same criteria. There's nothing wrong with liking both, or only one or the other, but I'm going to restrict my serious star ratings and MOTY considerations to matches where star ratings actually apply, which is not this match. Star ratings can also apply to WWE matches if you want them to, but I don't think they can be rated on the same scale as indy/Japan stuff, personally.

However, I would say I agree far more with the people saying ****1/2 or so than the people saying it sucked.


----------



## Goku

Shirley Crabtree III said:


> Ever heard of dispassionate critique? No, I thought not. Do you think that Dave Meltzer gives out high ratings to only his personal favourite wrestlers?


Probably why he never argues his ratings with any sort of merit. Should definitely follow his lead. Objectivity of ratings was argued in 2007 - 2008 for threads on end. Ridiculous to even suggest.



> Just because I like something, or you like something, it doesn't make it perfect. I like certain films with terrible cinematography, purely because I have some kind of personal attachment to them. I'm not delusional enough to call them perfect though. I wouldn't expect everyone else to ignore the flaws just because I relate to the story. I like Bob Dylan but he's a technically terrible singer. The girl I loved most in my life was a nutcase. I knew how to handle her but I wouldn't recommend her to anyone else. And so on...


Wrestling is subjective, like movies, like TV shows, like manga, anime, taste in food, yadi yada. If you have any sort of faith in your tastes, you'll think what you like is good, instead of liking things which aren't.

I'm not expecting anything from you. You were the one basing people's intelligence on their rating of a wrestling match. But I believe all those things about you. Sorry.



> Do you understand now?


No, please explain in detail.


----------



## FITZ

Well Undertaker/Triple H is the best match I've ever seen live. Very few matches I can say I enjoyed more than that at all in fact. Now it's probably not a 5* match but just being there for it was insane. It might have been obvious that Taker was winning but when Triple H did the throat slitting motion (an ending that would have been a lot like Shawn's last match and Flair's last match) I really thought Triple H was winning. I was also really far away and I could even appreciate how shocked Triple H was that he lost to someone that couldn't walk. The Hell's Gate caught me entirely off guard. 

And as far as I'm concerned ANX/Briscoes was the second best match of the weekend. I can't wait to see these teams wrestle again. Seriously hoping for something crazy at the next iPPV or NYC show (which could be the same show...).


----------



## Corey

*ROH on HDNet - The Final Episode*

Davey Richards & The Briscoes vs. Roderick Strong & The Kings of Wrestling - ****1/4
_This one definitely had a special feel goin in. They played videos from each group highlighting their best moments from the show, plus this was the only match on the episode. They really played that old school style to a tee with the isolation of one guy then he pulls off the hot tag to go along with the managerial interference that didn't hurt the match in any way. Actually made the match much more entertaining. Really awesome stuff highlighted by a Mark Briscoe crazy dive into the crowd and Davey putting a variation on the ankle lock I can't recall ever seeing. It'll be cool to see how this stacks up against the 6 man from the World's Greatest. Definitely a top 5 match in HDNet history._​


----------



## Chismo

> And as far as I'm concerned ANX/Briscoes was the second best match of the weekend.


I feel the same. ANX/Briscoes was my MOTY until Taker and HHH tore the house down. However, I have'em both at ****1/2.


----------



## Bubz

*ROH Honor Takes Centre Stage Night 1*

*Roderick Strong vs Davey Richards ****1/4*
These two never ever disapoint as far as i'm concerned. It did start slow, but it all led up to one of my favorite finishing sequences in a while, and the finish its self was awesome. Roddy knows how to make his finishers look weak though i have to say which probably kept it from being higher.

*KOW vs WGTT *****
Another great match between these two teams. On the same level as their others IMO. The finish was great as claudio's leg had been worked on by WGTT. Hero only hit one elbow in the match and it looked brutal as did benjamins super kick. The crowd popped big for the finish as well. Oh yeah...WGTT have the greatest entrance theme ever lol.

*Eddie Edwards vs Christopher Daniels *****
Great title match but i personaly thought the 9th Anniversary match was better. After the awesome taable spot it really picked up with Daniels working over the back and showing his heel side coming out, back and forth for a bit before the really good finish.

Davey/Roddy was MOTN for me. Bring on Night 2.


----------



## sXsCanadianFansXs

ROH World's Greatest
Shelton Benjamin, Charlie Haas & Davey Richards vs. Kings of Wrestling & Roderick Strong ****1/4 - ****1/2

Wow. I'm sure there will be those that hate this based on the length but it has to be one of the best six mans (not a big fan of DG spotfests) in awhile. Shelton and Haas were fresh opponents for Roderick and brought innovative offense while Davey and the Kings were excellent as usual. It was a bit hokey how everyone brawled to the back except for Davey/Roderick but the action was fantastic. Just six very good (to great) wrestlers in the ring for 30+ mins. Surpassed my expectations greatly.

My #4 MotY.


----------



## SHIRLEY

Hohenheim of Light said:


> Wrestling is subjective, like movies, like TV shows, like manga, anime, taste in food, yadi yada. If you have any sort of faith in your tastes, you'll think what you like is good, instead of liking things which aren't.


Nah, I eat at McDonalds because I like convenient junk food. It doesn't mean I don't respect the ability of Michelin star chefs (over McDonalds staff). It just means that what they do isn't aimed at people like me.

I think this is the approach that some people in the WWE section need to adopt towards Bryan Danielson, for example.


----------



## Goku

Did you think about that example before you typed it?


----------



## SHIRLEY

Hohenheim of Light said:


> Did you think about that example before you typed it?


What do you mean? Admitting my own stupidity, when it comes to food choices? When WWE's consumers will fight tooth and nail not to admit that they're the same, when it comes to wrestling.



WWE Mark said:


> NO ITS DA BEST ITZ DA DUBBLE DUBBLE EEE JHON SEENER WHY DUZ THEY HAVE THE MOST FANZ DEN CUZ ITS DA BEST ENTATAINMETNS


----------



## Goku

Okay, never mind. Carry on.


----------



## Generation-Now

Hohenheim wins this one.


----------



## Goku

1-0.


----------



## geraldinhio

Hohenheim is a breath of fresh air in this section.Post more in wrestling sections man ,easily one of the best posters.

Anyway just rewatched Wolve/WGTT .I'm gonna keep the rating at ****1/4 .Loved it ,Shelton was my MVP in this match weirdly.It's the most I was ever into Shelton ,by some distance too.


----------



## Goku

Don't really watch much wrestling anymore. Possibly the reason for my absence. Still troll TNA/Rock/Angle marks around, sometimes.


----------



## Nervosa

smitlick said:


> Maybe you should watch some of the shows because Fucking Awful isn't something I'd call most of there iPPVs since Gabes left.


Maybe YOU should read statements in context. Sephi said 'with the exception of a few good shows.'


----------



## Bubz

A lot of shows in that period seriously weren't very good at all. This year ROH has been awesome though and Delirious has really come into his own, apart from all the apparantly long main events (I havn't seen enough yet for it to be annoying) he's doing a great job.


----------



## Nervosa

bubz123 said:


> A lot of shows in that period seriously weren't very good at all. This year ROH has been awesome though and Delirious has really come into his own, apart from all the apparantly long main events (I havn't seen enough yet for it to be annoying) he's doing a great job.


I know, I'm agreeing with you. Since Fb2010 (good spot c-cool) Delirious has booked very well, and most of all, put what the fans want over what the office wants. The fans of ROH want wrestling first, angles second. They also want the belts to be the primary catalysts of feuds, no dusty finishes, and for significant events to happen on even the 'B-shows.' Delirious has set a great precedent, especially since the new year. 

After being out of ROH for almost a year, I'm back in...because they won me back with what worked about the company in the first place.

In all honesty, I hope they never get a TV show again.


----------



## BalooUpoo

Shirley Crabtree III said:


> I think this is the approach that some people in the WWE section need to adopt towards Bryan Danielson, for example.


Daniel Bryan is his name and his is like "rainbow & fruity nuts" flavor ice cream, smothered in hot creamy vanilla marshmallow dip, decorated with gummy bears and candy bananas. A taste only ROH fans can throat.

Just face it, Daniel Bryan just isn't an entertainer.

MOTYC contender is defiantly John Cena vs The Miz. The biggest match of the year fighting for the ultimate prize, two superstars at the peak of the business going toe to toe and cutting no stops. They put on an entertainment clinic that every indie wrestler should study and learn from.
__________________
I am the Miz's biggest fan and I am awesome!







​


----------



## Nervosa

BalooUpoo said:


> Daniel Bryan is his name and his is like "rainbow & fruity nuts" flavor ice cream, smothered in hot creamy vanilla marshmallow dip, decorated with gummy bears and candy bananas. A taste only ROH fans can throat.
> 
> Just face it, Daniel Bryan just isn't an entertainer.
> 
> MOTYC contender is defiantly John Cena vs The Miz. The biggest match of the year fighting for the ultimate prize, two superstars at the peak of the business going toe to toe and cutting no stops. They put on an entertainment clinic that every indie wrestler should study and learn from.


Wow. This guy is great!Hey Jaws, Crabtree....where did you find this guy? I really have been away from the board too long. He's hilarious. He redefines Troll.

I'm not even mad. I'm just impressed that a person out there exists who has no better purpose in life than to get off on trying to get under peoples' skin. It's freaking incredible. His posts are the most bizarro-world hilarious diatribes that I have ever seen. 

Does everyone remember when CM Skittle was really as bad as it got when it comes to people who just post tripe without ANY idea of what they are saying? 

Those days are gone. 

Long live the Jester, I suppose.


----------



## SHIRLEY

Nervosa said:


> Wow. This guy is great!Hey Jaws, Crabtree....where did you find this guy?


I found him all over my PMs, challenging me to a fight at the SHIMMER tapings.


----------



## BalooUpoo

We were going to fight that big #$%^# motherfucker. Where were you Shirley Crabtree III, did you go?
__________________
I am the Miz's biggest fan and I am awesome!







​


----------



## Nervosa

BalooUpoo said:


> We were going to fight that big #$%^# motherfucker. Where were you Shirley Crabtree III, did you go?


Hahaha....o man........I can't get enough. This is great. He doesn't even know.


----------



## BalooUpoo

Nervosa said:


> Hahaha....o man........I can't get enough. This is great. He doesn't even know.


Know what?
__________________
I am the Miz's biggest fan and I am awesome!







​


----------



## jawbreaker

Well that's an incredibly shitty Photoshop job.

Also, you're not a good troll, guy. Watch CM Skittle post and learn from that.


----------



## Nervosa

jawbreaker said:


> Well that's an incredibly shitty Photoshop job.
> 
> Also, you're not a good troll, guy. Watch CM Skittle post and learn from that.


Either you didn't read my post above, or we just replaced haas and Benjamin as Wrestling's Greatest Tag Team.


----------



## Corey

*ROH - World's Greatest
*
Davey Richards & Wrestling's Greatest Tag Team vs. Roderick Strong & The Kings of Wrestling - ****1/2
_Here recently ROH has really pulled off the old school tag style to a tee. This is just another example and it was really fuckin great. The exchanges between Hero & Shelton were just as good as they were in Atlanta, if not better. It didn't make a whole lot of sense for both tag teams to "brawl" to the back but you can never go wrong with Roddy vs. Davey, ever. Bottom line is this is a long, long match, but one of the best 6 man tags you'll ever see that doesn't involve Dragon Gate talent. I'll go as far as to say at this point it's ROH's match of the year._


----------



## antoniomare007

what the fuck happened to this thread?


----------



## Boom Baby

WM27 - Taker vs HHH - ****1/4


----------



## Bubz

antoniomare007 said:


> what the fuck happened to this thread?


Strange and mysterious things my friend.

Soooo....Just watched Mania.

*CM Punk vs Randy Orton ***3/4*
Great match, great psychology and an awesome performance from Punk, he pulled out some new moves i havn't seen him do before and i genuinely thought he might win after Orton's knee gave out.

I really don't know how to rate the HHH/Taker match, some parts of it where epic such as HHH's tombstone, it was a more believable near fall than anything from the Taker/HBK match from last year, but it seemed as though there was no actual wrestling and they just hit signature moves combined with lying around for 20 minutes. Needs a re-watch i think. But i will say the ending was great IMO and it did tell a great story of HHH doing anything to win and Taker never ever giving up at Mania. It was awesome when he tried to do the sitting up spot but just couldn't do it. It was HHH's best performance in forever, his facial expressions and actions where amazing.


----------



## Sephiroth

geraldinhio said:


> Hohenheim is a breath of fresh air in this section.Post more in wrestling sections man ,easily one of the best posters.


HE'S MINE! If you want an anime poster, I'll call Blasko up.


----------



## CM Skittle

jawbreaker said:


> Also, you're not a good troll, guy. Watch CM Skittle post and learn from that.


Oh sorry I thought this was a wrestling discussion topic, not a discussion topic about me. Grow up!


----------



## Bubz

*ROH Honor Takes Centre Stage Night 2*

*Cole & O'Rilley vs KOW ***3/4+*
Awesome action here. Better than the Briscoes match the previous night. The highlight was O'Rilley with the guillotine choke on Claudio and refusing to let go while Hero kicked him in the face.

*ANX vs Briscoes *****
First things first...Jay Briscoe is fucking awesome! Secondly, this was a great match. Rhett Titus was the stand out for me, really a break out performance from him. The part where Jay and Titus where face to face exchanging strikes was crazy good. I hope this fued continues because i know there are even better matches these guys could have.

*American Wolves vs WGTT *****
The only thing that kept this from being higher was that the limb and body work overs on the wolves seemed to be completely forgotten about, but apart from that it was great. Shelton now officialy has the best superkicks in America lol. They always look quite brutal it has to be said. The stero germans where cool and WGTT looked awesome in dominating the match.

Another great show but i thought night 1 was the better show overall with Davey/Roddy as my match of the weekend and quite high on my MOTYC list.


----------



## Sephiroth

Everytime we talk about CM Skittle, an angels gets its wings her dick grows an inch


----------



## Kapik1337

New Blood said:


> We can all agree that nothing's better in current wrestling than IWRG.
> 
> That's what this thread needs more of. More lucha. And Dick Togo.


Speaking of Dick Togo, he recently had a 37 minute long title match against Kota Ibushi at the DDT anniversary show. I fully expect it to enter my MOTYC list as soon as I find it.


----------



## seancarleton77

Taker vs. Triple H getting anything over ***3/4 makes me violently ill, and that's coming from a guy who was hyped match and got everyone else hyped about this it, I ended up thinking Mysterio vs. Rhodes and Punk vs. Orton were better. Also 3 out of the 5 people watching at my place said the same thing, the finisher spamming was stupid and had no real set up and the cool parts were the Tombstone on Taker and the Spinebuster through the table. By the way my Brother who has not been a wrestling fan since the Rock, Stone Cold & DX days said the match made no sense and was not able to suspend his disbelief, which means it failed.


----------



## Goku

Check the snowflakes thread. Plenty of brilliant write-ups there, specifically the one by Razor, explain the merit of the match. Or does every match fail when your brother thinks it doesn't make sense.


----------



## jawbreaker

LoserVirgin™ said:


> Oh sorry I thought this was a wrestling discussion topic, not a discussion topic about me. Grow up!


I wasn't even discussing you. Grow up.


----------



## antoniomare007

*El Generico vs Kotaro Suzuki - 16 Carat Gold Tournament 2011, night 1*

It started as nothing special but the last 10 minutes were awesome. If you don't like Generico you are not gonna be a fan of this match (and shame on you for not liking the best babyface in wrestling), I love the guy and this was worth the time/download.


----------



## Nervosa

Hohenheim of Light said:


> Check the snowflakes thread. Plenty of brilliant write-ups there, specifically the one by Razor, explain the merit of the match. Or does every match fail when your brother thinks it doesn't make sense.


I know you're itching for an argument with everyone who dislikes the match, but calm down a bit. Carlton's post was clearly stating that to your average wrestling fan,(like his brother) spotfests go uncriticized because they are usually too busy marking out over the finishers. The fact that the match was so void of story and full of finishers and unbelievable kickouts made even the kind of fan who shouldn't care question the legitimacy. 

Again, I haven't seen the match, but that's a bad sign.


----------



## dk4life

OK so back to the MOTYC's

Taker Vs Triple H, I wasn't a fan of, less then 4 snowflakes to me (that's my opinion) Nothing at Wrestlmania was worth a watch, besides it being wrestlemania

American Wolves vs Shelton Benjamin & Charlie Haas - Loved this match, it was my match of the weekend, I may be a little bias because I was watching my first iPPV of ROH, it was booked well, I gave it ****, it was the best match of the weekend, also marked a little bit when they paydirt was used.

Shelton Benjamin & Charlie Haas vs Kings Of Wrestling - I also really liked this match, but didn't mind who won, because I loved both teams. I think I was just happy to see some tag team wrestling!!

One match to mention is Briscoes vs All Night Express - this was just an all out war!

I'm just watching Dragon Gate USA - Mercury Rising now, and it is the style of wrestling I like over other company's, was a big fan of the 6 man elimination, some awkward moments, but Brodie Lee was awesome in that match! Only up to the Brave Gate match, so still go a few more matches to go


----------



## Bubz

*Chris Hero vs Kevin Steen - PWG Kurt Russellmania 2 ****1/4*
My new MOTY. I loved everything about it apart from the fact it didn't have a back story. Hero and Steen are just two complete bad ass's when they are in the ring. Steen looked awesome and it is great seeing him back in PWG. Hero as usual proved why to me he is the best on the indy's. He can play an awesome heel who is a complete bastard, and he can play a great face in peril, as he did here with Steen dominating for the most part. His strikes looked as good as ever here and that "Cyclone Kill" kick as Excalibur called it is just a sick move. I enjoyed this match more than any other this year with the exception of Davey/TJP.


----------



## Goku

Nervosa said:


> I know you're itching for an argument with everyone who dislikes the match, but calm down a bit. Carlton's post was clearly stating that to your average wrestling fan,(like his brother) spotfests go uncriticized because they are usually too busy marking out over the finishers. *The fact that the match was so void of story and full of finishers and unbelievable kickouts made even the kind of fan who shouldn't care question the legitimacy.*


Nice WRONG fact. Enjoy your WRONG.


----------



## Corey

Just finished the DGUSA iPPV and didn't really think anything was too worthy of this thread (have the final three matches all at ***3/4), so now that I've seen everything from Mania weekend, here's my updated list:

1. No Holds Barred: The Undertaker vs. Triple H (Wrestlemania 27) - ****1/2
2. Davey Richards & Wrestling's Greatest Tag Team vs. Roderick Strong & The Kings of Wrestling (ROH World's Greatest) - ****1/2
3. Two out of Three Falls: Christopher Daniels vs. Eddie Edwards (ROH 9th Anniversary Show) - ****1/2
4. Claudio Castagnoli vs. El Generico (PWG Kurt RussellReunion II) - ****1/4
5. Davey Richards & The Briscoes vs. Roderick Strong & The Kings of Wrestling (ROH on HDNet Final Episode) - ****1/4
6. Chris Hero vs. Kevin Steen (PWG Kurt RussellReunion II) - ****1/4
7. Eddie Edwards vs. Christopher Daniels (ROH Honor Takes Center Stage Chapter 1) - ****1/4
8. Roderick Strong vs. El Generico (ROH SoCal Showdown II) - ****1/4

*The Rest (All rated ****)*
Christopher Daniels vs. Claudio Castagnoli (ROH Only The Strong Survive)
Roderick Strong vs. Jay Briscoe (ROH Only The Strong Survive)
Eddie Kingston vs. El Generico (Chikara Chaos in the Sea of Lost Souls)
Davey Richards vs. TJ Perkins (ROH SoCal Showdown II)
The Kings of Wrestling vs. Wrestling's Greatest Tag Team (ROH SoCal Showdown II)
Low Ki vs. Davey Richards (PWG Kurt RussellReunion II)
BxB Hulk vs. Akira Tozawa (DGUSA United We Stand)
Elimination Chamber: Edge vs. Rey Mysterio vs. Kane vs. Big Show vs. Drew McIntyre vs. Wade Barrett (WWE Elimination Chamber)
Roderick Strong vs. Davey Richards (ROH Honor Takes Center Stage Chapter 1)
The Briscoes vs. The All Night Express (ROH Honor Takes Center Stage Chapter 2)
The American Wolves vs. Wrestling's Greatest Tag Team (ROh Honor Takes Center Stage Chapter 2)


----------



## Bubz

So i just watched the All Asia Tag Title match from 21/3 and i have to say i prefered the first match in the series. Still it was around the **** range.

*ROH Worlds Greatest - Roderick Strong & KoW vs Davey Richards & WGTT ****1/2*
Yes! This was awesome! just amazing non stop wrestling for 30+ minutes. This was so fun to watch and the crowd was in to it. I said Hero/Steen was my MOTY but this has overtaken it. Definately my favorite match of the year thus far.


----------



## Nervosa

Hohenheim of Light said:


> Nice WRONG fact. Enjoy your WRONG.


Really? You're going to attack me on the word 'fact?' I was explaining a perspective, and if Carlton's brothers' perspective was truly that the match had too many finishers and was unbelievable, then it is a FACT that he judged it that way. Whether that criticism is legitimate or not can be argued as long as you like, but that doesn't change the FACT that it happens to be how his brother saw it. If you're going to get all uptight about my usage of 'fact,' at least understand the concept of perspective first. 

As I've said, I still haven't seen the match yet, but I find it intriguing how obnoxiously butt-hurt you seem to be over legitimate criticism of the match. 

Curious from a guy who just two pages ago said wrestling was subjective.


----------



## Caponex75

Well I hate to shut you down but it is a fact the match had a story......a rather obvious one at that. It is just up to people about whether that story was good or bad.


----------



## Goku

Nervosa said:


> Really? You're going to attack me on the word 'fact?' I was explaining a perspective, and if Carlton's brothers' perspective was truly that the match had too many finishers and was unbelievable, then it is a FACT that he judged it that way. Whether that criticism is legitimate or not can be argued as long as you like, but that doesn't change the FACT that it happens to be how his brother saw it. If you're going to get all uptight about my usage of 'fact,' at least understand the concept of perspective first.
> 
> As I've said, I still haven't seen the match yet, but I find it intriguing how obnoxiously butt-hurt you seem to be over legitimate criticism of the match.
> 
> Curious from a guy who just two pages ago said wrestling was subjective.


Subjectivity loses merit when vital points argued against certain points are ignored b/c they don't go along with their initial view of the match. I wasn't arguing the number of finishers used in the match. That part was fact. The 'void of story' part was a lie. No, it's not dependent on perspective. It was a lie.

I haven't attacked anybody with any legitimate criticism of the match, its slow-pace being the prime argument against it. But tons of people have reviewed the match, EXPLAINING IN DETAIL what it was all about. When those points continue to be ignored in favour of 'no story, all spotz', then of course, I will argue.

Also, you're arguing a match that you haven't seen yet. So I'm not even sure what we're discussing.


----------



## FITZ

There are times when I think I could just look at a card and assign star ratings and nobody would question whether or not I actually watched the show.

And story telling being present in a match is something that you can't argue against. You can say that the story they told was boring, stupid, unoriginal, or pointless but arguing it's presence is something that I would normally try to avoid.


----------



## smitlick

TaylorFitz said:


> There are times when I think I could just look at a card and assign star ratings and nobody would question whether or not I actually watched the show.
> 
> And story telling being present in a match is something that you can't argue against. You can say that the story they told was boring, stupid, unoriginal, or pointless but arguing it's presence is something that I would normally try to avoid.


Theres a reason you could do that though. Everyone has different opinions. No one is right or wrong. Just different.


----------



## Nervosa

Hohenheim of Light said:


> Nice WRONG fact. Enjoy your WRONG.





Hohenheim of Light said:


> Subjectivity loses merit when vital points argued against certain points are ignored b/c they don't go along with their initial view of the match. I wasn't arguing the number of finishers used in the match. That part was fact. The 'void of story' part was a lie. No, it's not dependent on perspective. It was a lie.
> 
> I haven't attacked anybody with any legitimate criticism of the match, its slow-pace being the prime argument against it. But tons of people have reviewed the match, EXPLAINING IN DETAIL what it was all about. When those points continue to be ignored in favour of 'no story, all spotz', then of course, I will argue.
> 
> Also, you're arguing a match that you haven't seen yet. So I'm not even sure what we're discussing.


I'm not arguing for or against the match, I'm arguing for what Capone was trying to say rather than your interpretation. 

Anyway, he already said the lack of story part wasn't in his criticism, so it is pointless to discuss it, but certainly not because I haven't seen the match. I was never really discussing the match in the first place, just your reaction to comments about it.


----------



## Goku

Ok. Why?


----------



## dele

Sephiroth said:


> Dele, you rule. Would you watch Big Japan Porn Wrestling if they hit each other in the junk instead?


Being the biggest BJW mark on the board, I'm inclined to say yes.


----------



## Nervosa

Hohenheim of Light said:


> Ok. Why?


I thought Capone expressing his brothers' perspective was a legitimate argument, and I think you were a bit overly dismissive, as you have been with most legitimate arguments against the match.


----------



## Nervosa

TaylorFitz said:


> There are times when I think I could just look at a card and assign star ratings and nobody would question whether or not I actually watched the show.
> 
> And story telling being present in a match is something that you can't argue against. You can say that the story they told was boring, stupid, unoriginal, or pointless but arguing it's presence is something that I would normally try to avoid.


I agree with Smitlick, but I will add that many many matches are storyless. 90% of X division, no, make that TNA history has been built upon matches with no story.


----------



## Speedy McGee

Come on children. People have different opinons and don't get upset over one another when somebody has a different opinon then you.


----------



## Goku

Nervosa said:


> I thought Capone expressing his brothers' perspective was a legitimate argument, and I think you were a bit overly dismissive, as you have been with most legitimate arguments against the match.


"My brother didn't like it, so it's a bad match" is a legitimate argument? :lmao


----------



## Chismo

*Takashi Sugiura(c) vs Giant Bernard (NOAH 03/05/11)*

Giant Bernard is fucking awesome and probably the best big man in the world today. His offense, heel antics and presence are awesome. Talking about psychology right there, that was one hell of a performance. Sugiura is mini-Superman though, and charismatic baby face so he survived everything, got mad and beat the fuck out of Bernard with elbows and knees. Very stiff! And then he hit 3 head dropping Olympic slams to kill Bernard and retain the gold. Excellent match, simplicity is the key to brilliance.
*
*****


----------



## Corey

*wXw Kreuzzug ZXI
*
Adam Cole & Kyle O'Reilly vs. LDRS of the New School (Zack Sabre Jr. & Marty Scurll) - ****1/4
_It was really weird to see Cole & O'Reilly be the heels for once and not the underdog team, but god damn did they still impress. This was an excellent tag match and my first time seeing the LDRS. They're equally as impressive and quite the formidable team. Lots of nice tag moves and crazy stiffness throughout. The flash pin to end was totally out of nowhere and with a more livelier crowd, this would be even better._

*wXw Unified World Wrestling Championship*
Daisuke Sekimoto(c) vs. Chris Hero - ****
_A well wrestled and ridiculously stiff match, but it's not for everyone. It went for nearly 30 minutes I'd say and it was a very slow, methodical pace. Sekimoto is an absolute beast and Hero's fighting spirit moments were really awesome as well. Check it out if you don't mind a slower pace._


----------



## Nervosa

Hohenheim of Light said:


> "My brother didn't like it, so it's a bad match" is a legitimate argument? :lmao


No, but 'even the kind of fan that shouldn't mind spotfests thought this was too much,' is completely legitimate. Come on, you're too smart to need me to explain that to you.


----------



## rafz

WrestleMania XXVII

_The Undertaker vs. Triple H - No Holds Barred Match_

Before get into the match, I could not let pass the two great entrances, were a spectacle just like Wrestlemania should be. Now talking about the match, I waited a chance to rewatched the match to review, meanwhile I read several feedbacks including in this forum, posts saying that was a spotfest match and there was no story, well that's what I saw: After two Wrestlemanias in a row, Shawn Michaels took Undertaker to the limit, using everything he had and sitll, unable to beat him. What Hunter had to do to not suffer the same fate? Exactly what he came to do, he could not win using your basic moves stuff, throwing Taker on the ropes, taking him down with clotheslines...he had to DESTROY The Undertaker, using everything he had, all your most powerful weapons, and not even being able to defeat him, was certainly marked as the one who came closest.

Fantastic points that I enjoyed: 
- Taker's magnificent selling;
- few botches, nothing significant that will be remembered;
- the most believable nearfall of all time, that sick twisted segment into the Tombstone of Hunter, and the incredible kickout after.

What bothered me:
- HHH poor selling, especially at the end of the match;
- two kickouts, after two straight finishers, first the Last Ride/Tombstone and after the two Pedigrees, both made that finishers make so much weaker than might have been.

It may not have been a 5* match, with a short builup which should have started well before to make people really believe that Hunter could ended the streak, even though during the match I bet at least 95% of the people watching the match thought the streak was over when HHH crossed Taker's arms and the referee was counting. But the two deserve congratulations, exceeded all expectations, including mine and stole the show, it's hard to believe that we will have a better match this year in WWE, and it certainly is a strong candidate for the Match Of The Year.

*****1/4*


----------



## seabs

*Colt Cabana vs Zack Sabre Jr. - wXw 16 Carat Gold Tournament Day 1*
_Really fun match and not just a comedy match because it had some awesome mat wrestling coinciding with it too. When Colt's on the type of the form that he was for 16 Carat, there isn't too many workers more enjoyable to watch.

***3/4_

*El Generico vs Kotaro Suzuki - wXw 16 Carat Gold Tournament Day 1*
_Given 5 more minutes in the middle and it could have boomed much higher. Still it was really fucking good with just two amazing wrestlers going at it.

***3/4_

*Colt Cabana vs Marty Scurll - wXw 16 Carat Gold Tournament Day 2*
_This might be my favourite, most enjoyable match ever. Sure it's not a ***** masterpiece of moves but seriously your life as a wrestling fan isn't complete until you've witnessed this. Marty really shot up leaps and bounds during this weekend with me. Before I'd seen him a few times in IPW:UK and around Europe and he looked like a really good worker but shit he's one of my favourite guys now. Don't even get me started on his entrance. Holy fuck. I think this is the match that Alan got criticised for posting in here even though it was a comedy match but yeah it totally deserves it's place. Put the commentary track on with this too because the commentary is insane for this match._

*Go Shiozaki vs Kotaro Suzuki - wXw 16 Carat Gold Tournament Day 2*
_Started off a bit meh and there was an awful passage on the floor with Go's body slam, launch into the ring post and running knee lift but once they got going they had an awesome match, made only better by the great crowd. Some of the strike exchanges were brilliant.

****_

*Davey Richards vs Zack Sabre Jr. - wXw 16 Carat Gold Tournament Day 2*
_This was MOTY until the next show came along. Some really awesome strike exchanges and an incredible finishing stretch. Sabre is awesome and it's great to see that he finally seems to be having that breakthrough year. Zack's one of the few Indy guys who can really genuinely sell legitimately and the way he sold the ankle lock right at the end was awesome. Davey had one of his best performances too here. Zack went for multiple cross arm breaker attempts and then Davey pulled out a shockingly awesome piece of selling when he went for a lariat but it didn't have any effect and he sold his arm after.

****1/2_

*Daisuke Sekimoto vs El Generico - wXw 16 Carat Gold Tournament Day 3*
_This was probably a little disappointing given it's arguably two of the best workers going atm and I had ridcolously high hopes for it but it's still an easy **** match. The dynamic between Sekimoto being unhamanly strong and Generico being the smaller guy having to dodge him. Finishing stretch is fucking amazing and makes up for the middle being on the short side. Generico being this babyface that just would not die and kept coming back was amazing and he played perfectly off Sekimoto.

****_

*LDRS Of The New School vs Adam Cole & Kyle O'Reilly - wXw 16 Carat Gold Tournament Day 3*
_This is now my current MOTY and holy shit it was quite something. When you get a tag match where the exchanges between all 4 guys, no matter what the combination is, are awesome then you're onto a winner. Cole is such a brilliant douchebag heel and despite O'Reilly pretty much sucking as a heel worker the previous day, he was a great heel here too. They possibly could have cut the last 5 minutes off and it would have been just as good but they all really sold the effects of a long battle superbly that it didn't hurt it one bit. 

****1/2+_

*Sami Callihan vs Big Van Walter - wXw 16 Carat Gold Tournament Day 3*
_This isn't the greatest final match ever but it had some amazing build to it throughout the weekend and a great story with it. On the 1st show they aired an incredible promo video for the tournament highlighted with Walter destroying the trophy when he won last year and saying can the monster be stopped this year, so you've got this seemingly unstoppable monster who's running through everyone. Then they basically chose the most over babyface to go with him which instantly makes the match enjoyable no matter who it is. Sami was massively over with the crowd. Figured this tournament would be a make or break deal for Sami but it was neither really. He showed that with a strong story and a loud crowd behind that he could work as a good underdog babyface with lots of fire but on the other hand he didn't really show that he was one of the best workers on the Indy scene either. The story of his matches in each round were that he'd keep beating adversity to come back and win as the underdog and it built superbly to him winning in the end. Match is good too on top of the story and build. Simple but effective. Walter dominated and his beat down on the outside was awesome. Then Sami starts to come back and the crowd go nuts and it climaxes with him making Walter tap which was really nicely done too. Walter's army teasing a beatdown after only for the rest of the locker room to come out to stand by Sami was an brilliant little finishing touch too. Great example of not needing to be two of the best wrestlers to have a great match.

***3/4_


----------



## Noah Mark

For all you Lucha fans, this is a definately a match to go out of your way to see.

Solar I & Trauma I vs ***** Navarro & Trauma II 4/2/11 GLC. ****1/4.
It's really hard to pick a better technical wizard then Navarro and when Solar I is in the match the sweetness cannot be topped. The Traumas who are probably one of the best tag teams in the world right now are also excellent in the match. Here is a link to the match.
http://lucharesu.blogspot.com/2011/04/project-33-match-107-solar-trauma-i-vs.html


----------



## smitlick

DGUSA - United Philly
Yoshino/PAC vs Ricochet/Doi
****1/4


----------



## septurum

Takashi Sugiura (c) vs Giant Bernard (NOAH 03/05/11)- ****

Triple H vs Undertaker (Wrestlemania 26)- **** 1/4

Kotaro Suzuki (c) vs Katsuhiko Nakajima (NOAH 03/05/11)- **** 1/3

Kotaro Suzuki (c) vs Eddie Edwards (NOAH 01/29/11)- **** 1/2 (Best match of the year so far, for sure.)


----------



## septurum

KENTA vs Yoshihiro Takayama - (NOAH 01/15/11)- ****


----------



## seabs

*Jon Moxley vs Jimmy Jacobs - Dog Collar Match - IPW Showtown In Naptown*
_Once you get past the pointless and shitty crowd brawling at the very start this is really great and around about on par with their best 2 matches in DGUSA. Moxley bleeds like a stuffed pig and puts in a better performance than he did in any of his other matches with Jacobs. He comes up with an isane counter to Jacobs' end time choke too which you have to see.

***3/4_

*American Wolves vs Irish Airbourne - IPW Showtown In Naptown*
_This is really good but the Wolves could have had this match with literally anyone who knew how to work a match. Airbourne aren't great but thhey're not a bad team either and they can have a good-great match given the right opponents as shown here. Wolves controlling the match and just beating one of the brothers (I forget which one) up was great and the finishing strecth was superb although it did overstay and it's welcome and drag on a little. 

***3/4_


----------



## Sephiroth

Seabs, what was MOTN for the wXw 16 Carat Gold show?


----------



## geraldinhio

Sephiroth said:


> Seabs, what was MOTN for the wXw 16 Carat Gold show?


Match of tournament was easily LDRS Of The New School vs Adam Cole & Kyle O'Reilly .My match of the year now and i'd say Seabs would agree.I gave it ****1/2 if not more, better than Wolves/WGTT.Adam Cole could be massive as a heel too.

Davey Richards vs Zack Sabre Jr was awesome too.It was sorta like his match with TJP but only better ,with stiffer strikes and smoother transitions.Awesome match ,probably Davey's best this year.**** 1/2 snowflakes.

Watch Colt Cabana vs Marty Scurll too.As a comedy match this is ***** stars.I have had as much fun watching a match since Claudio/Ricochet at the BOLA .Comedic genius ,the German commentary is pure gold too.:lmao


----------



## Bubz

*Davey Richards vs Zack Sabre Jr ****1/4 - ****1/2*
This was all kinds of awesome! It was definately similar to Davey vs TJP. It was full of awesome strikes and submission work and great selling on both guys parts. First time seeing Sabre jr and he is indeed awesome once you get past the fact he is very small. Looking forward to seeing more of him. Davey was brilliant in this and topped his performance against TJP.

Oh, and The German commentary was actualy hilarious with the random outbursts of "Whaaaaaat?" and "Whaaat Thhhe Fuuccckkk?". It needs a re-watch to decide on the final rating as i admit i did get slightly distracted by the commentary lol.


----------



## KingKicks

*Pro Wrestling NOAH 1/29
GHC Jr. Heavyweight Title Match*
Kotaro Suzuki vs. Eddie Edwards *****-****¼*

Up there with this year's iPPV matches with Daniels as Eddie's best singles matches so far (from what I've seen). When the hell did he become so vicious with his chops?


----------



## seabs

Sephiroth said:


> Seabs, what was MOTN for the wXw 16 Carat Gold show?


*Of the whole weekend? The LDRS tag closely followed by Davey/Zack.*


----------



## septurum

Kaz Hayashi (c) vs Minoru - (AJPW 01/02/11)- *** 3/4


----------



## lewieG

DGUSA Mercury Rising

PAC vs Akira Tozawa: **** - ****1/4 just an awesome match to watch, so fast and so much fun. Great indy style match.

Austin Aries vs YAMATO: **** just a notch below the previous match, but a very similar and also very enjoyable match featuring a great nearfall from the Galleria, which I completely bought.

6 man tag: ***3/4 a really fun DG special to finish. Chucky T impressed yet again.

Was a really fun show overall, found a VOD of it without knowing the card or even much of what was going on in DGUSA (I don't really follow it but I know all the wrestlers), but I enjoyed it very much and will go looking for the next iPPV.

ROH Takes Center Stage Night 1

Davey Richards vs Chris Hero: **** same rating as I gave their Final Battle match. 27 minutes was probably 5 minutes too long considering the length of the main event, and I assume the predictable winner was the reason for the crowd being a little quiet, but still a very good match from these two, who I don't think could have a bad match with eachother.

WGTT vs KOW: **** I probably enjoyed this a little more than the Richards/Strong match, if only for the fantastic finishing sequence and crowd heat near the end. This had some awesome nods to their GBH match, especially in the finish, which was a great way for WGTT to win the belts, and got a huge reaction. Keen to see where both teams go from here.

Eddie Edwards vs Christopher Daniels: **** not as good as their 9YA match, but better than their HDNet match. Nice work on the back by Daniels after the two sick spots on the outside with a table and chairs, would have liked to see him bring out the blue thunder bomb to damage it even more like he did at 9YA. Some good nearfalls and a smart finish (Daniels was pinned after a couple of big moves, rather than him tapping out again to Edwards, which might have made him look a little weak). A potential rematch with Daniels as the heel and/or Strong and Daniels vs American Wolves would both appeal to me.

A really great show by ROH, the Briscoes/Cole and O'Reilly match was also a good one. Looking forward to night 2.


----------



## seabs

*Oberhausen Terror Corps vs Munenori Sawa & Hikaru Sato - wXw Back 2 The Roots X*
_Loved this. Carnage looked better in this than he I've seen him before by a long shot. His selling at the start was great and really made Sawa & Sato look like deadly motherfuckers. Shame he forgot about it after though. Sawa was super over with the crowd and Sato continued his awesome run as of late. Bad Bones coming into the match as a super pissed off muscle freak was awesome and him and Sawa really brought the hate to each other. Sato sold the leg superbly too and it paid off nicely for the finish. Shame that they had Sawa and Bad Bones brawling in the crowd during the finish and went to split screen but other than that I dont have an real complaints about this

****1/4_

*Daisuke Sekimoto vs Big Van Walter - wXw Back 2 The Roots X*
_This was one hell of a heavyweight battle and when these type of matches work, they're brilliant. Loads of sick chops and the lariat battle was awesome. Walter really stepped his game up for this one and looked brilliant in his own right, not just being helped by a better worker as his opponent as is sometimes the case. Bit heavy at the end with Walter hitting so many big moves, especially powerbombs. Sekimoto's dead lift suplex was insane. You know it's coming but it doesn't fail to amaze when he does it to someone the size of Walter.

****1/4_


----------



## septurum

Masato Tanaka vs Yuji Nagata (ZERO-1 03/06/11)- ****


----------



## KingCrash

Hey Seabs how was LDRS vs. Sumerian Death Squad on Back 2 The Roots X?


----------



## geraldinhio

Here's Marty Scurll's theme song if anyone was wondering ,I know Seabs didn't.Fit Schurll perfect ,his entrance was awesome.:lmao Was blown away how much he has improved since I saw him in 1PW ,given that was a few years ago.


----------



## seabs

KingCrash said:


> Hey Seabs how was LDRS vs. Sumerian Death Squad on Back 2 The Roots X?


*It was good but the overkill hurt it for me. I can imagine people thinking it was great if the over done last 5 minutes didn't bother them. *


----------



## ViolenceIsGolden

Seabs said:


> *Oberhausen Terror Corps vs Munenori Sawa & Hikaru Sato - wXw Back 2 The Roots X*
> _Loved this. Carnage looked better in this than he I've seen him before by a long shot. His selling at the start was great and really made Sawa & Sato look like deadly motherfuckers. Shame he forgot about it after though. Sawa was super over with the crowd and Sato continued his awesome run as of late. Bad Bones coming into the match as a super pissed off muscle freak was awesome and him and Sawa really brought the hate to each other. Sato sold the leg superbly too and it paid off nicely for the finish. Shame that they had Sawa and Bad Bones brawling in the crowd during the finish and went to split screen but other than that I dont have an real complaints about this
> 
> ****1/4_
> 
> *Daisuke Sekimoto vs Big Van Walter - wXw Back 2 The Roots X*
> _This was one hell of a heavyweight battle and when these type of matches work, they're brilliant. Loads of sick chops and the lariat battle was awesome. Walter really stepped his game up for this one and looked brilliant in his own right, not just being helped by a better worker as his opponent as is sometimes the case. Bit heavy at the end with Walter hitting so many big moves, especially powerbombs. Sekimoto's dead lift suplex was insane. You know it's coming but it doesn't fail to amaze when he does it to someone the size of Walter.
> 
> ****1/4_


Damn Big Van Vader still wrestling in 2011 and in a 4 star match? I've gotta see this now. Thanks.


----------



## Emperor DC

ViolenceIsGolden said:


> Damn Big Van Vader still wrestling in 2011 and in a 4 star match? I've gotta see this now. Thanks.


I think / hope you're having a laugh.

I mean, he is back wrestling in Japan with his son, at least ...


----------



## ViolenceIsGolden

Emperor DC said:


> I think / hope you're having a laugh.
> 
> I mean, he is back wrestling in Japan with his son, at least ...


Walter WTF? LOL. No I really thought it said Big Van VADER. Now I have nothing to download today.


----------



## antoniomare007

download it anyways, you will become a Daisuke Sekimoto fan


----------



## ViolenceIsGolden

antoniomare007 said:


> download it anyways, you will become a Daisuke Sekimoto fan


I already am. If Big Van Vader is at ringside I might download it anyway. Wish it was Vader and not his son but if his son looks anything like Vader then it might be an awesome match which from the 4 star rating it probably is.


----------



## Corey

Big van Walter isn't Vader's son. The match has nothing to do with Vader. haha. Big van Walter is from Austria.


----------



## seabs

*Zack Sabre Jr. vs Jon Ryan - wXw Ambition 2*
_The 1st Ambition show didn't quite click for me but the 2nd was a drastic improvement. Ryan's a guy who's technically really sound but he just doesn't do it for me in wrestling matches. Here though it's basically a mat wrestling exhibition which suits him better imo. This is so fucking enjoyable and it actually got to a point where I just thought to myself I could watch this for an hour. Awesome mat/submission wrestling and some really nasty strikes towards the end. Nice teacher vs student dynamic too. Loved this.

Sawa vs Sato from this event was great too, especially if you just love two guys having awesome strike battles. The last few minutes with them just slapping the shit out of each other was great along with some awesome goofy facials from both men whilst they're tearing each other up. 

Seriously, wXw is really on fucking fire this year. 2 strong events and then an amazing 16 carat and hopefully they keep it up. The iPPV looks awesome and the show the night after is supposedly great too. Plus they've got the NOAH show in May which I can't see disappointing, especially with the 2 matches they have signed already. Sabre could easily be a dark horse for WOTY too. 2 legit MOTYC's from 16 Carat and the rematch on the iPPV was apparently great too plus his match with Hero got rave reviews. Then he's facing KENTA at the NOAH UK shows and Devitt in May on top of his stay in the US this month._


----------



## jawbreaker

So I watched Cabana vs. Scurll and Richards vs. Sabre from 16 Carat, and holy fucking shit announcers, just stick to German instead of switching into English every now and then to scream something involving the word fuck. I'd rather be able to entirely tune you out than have you distract me from the match because you're marking out like a 14 year old on YouTube.

Richards vs. Sabre was also an excellent Richards formula match, which at this point doesn't do a whole lot for me, but I can totally see why others like it.


----------



## Kapik1337

Totally disagree with you here. The announcing was awesome.


----------



## jawbreaker

Yelling "FUCK HIM IN THE FUCKING ASS" in a thick German accent is awesome?

It sounded like they were trying too hard to be Excalibur while entirely missing what it is that makes Excalibur great.


----------



## seabs

*You can turn the commentary off and just have the arena sound when you buy the DVDs anyway. Random bursts of crazy english phrases throughout 16 Carat made it so much more enjoyable for me than just having no commentary. Jakobi is fucking great btw. *


----------



## Zatiel

Random Alan4L is the highlight so far. I need to watch these shows when I'm not falling asleep, though.


----------



## Boom Baby

Masato Tanaka vs Yuji Nagata (ZERO-1 03/06/11) - ***3/4


----------



## Bubz

Re watched Davey/Sabre Jr and i'm sticking with ****1/2. Amazing match and better on the second viewing. Still pissed myself hearing the German commentator burst into English saying "THIS IS NOT GOING TO END WELL!".

*LDRS of the New School vs Cole and O'Reilly ****1/2*
I don't know what to say that Seabs already hasn't apart from if you are a fan of indy wrestling you need to watch this match. Awesome spots and exchanges from everyone. 

First time seeing Cole as a heel and i really liked him, if ROH don't turn him heel in the future they are missing out big time.


----------



## smitlick

DGUSA - United We Stand
Tozawa vs Hulk
****1/4


----------



## Schorschi

wXw´s IPPV had 4 great matches:
Big Van Walter & Brodie Lee vs. Johnny Moss & Michael Elgin - ***1/2
Adam Cole & Kyle O´Reilly vs. LDRS (Marty Scurll & Zack Sabre Jr.) - ****
Daisuke Sekimoto vs. Chris Hero - ****1/4
Drake Younger vs. Jun Kasai - ***1/2

The rest of the show was also very nice.


----------



## KingKicks

jawbreaker said:


> Yelling "FUCK HIM IN THE FUCKING ASS" in a thick German accent is awesome?
> 
> It sounded like they were trying too hard to be Excalibur while entirely missing what it is that makes Excalibur great.


They were especially worse during Cabana's matches for me, I was close to just switching my TV off.

*wXw 16 Carat Gold Day 2*

Davey Richards vs. Zack Sabre Jr. - *****¼-****½*
_Awesome match with a seriously great finishing stretch. Some of the counters at the end were so slick especially Davey's two reversals into the anklelock._

*wXw 16 Carat Gold Day 3*

Daisuke Sekimoto vs. El Generico - ****¾-*****
_I've not seen as much of Sekimoto as I'd like to but damn the guy is a beast, and this match was a hell of a lot of fun to watch. Generico being the best underdog in wrestling certainly helps._

LDRS of The New School vs. Adam Cole and Kyle O’Reilly - *****¼-****½*
_It really is difficult to add anything different to what Seabs said. Just a really awesome tag match, I'd love to see LDRS get a chance to compete against some other great indy teams._


----------



## rafz

PWG Kurt RussellReunion II: The Reunioning
_Low Ki vs. Davey Richards _******
_Chris Hero vs. Kevin Steen _*****1/4*
_Claudio Castagnoli vs. El Generico _*****1/4*

ROH Honor Takes Center Stage Chapter 1
_Davey Richards vs. Roderick Strong _****3/4*
_Kings Of Wrestling vs. Shelton Benjamin & Charlie Haas _****3/4*
_Eddie Edwards vs. Chrostopher Daniels _******

ROH Honor Takes Center Stage Chapter 2
_The Briscoes vs. All Night Express _*****1/4*


----------



## S-Mac

_Davey Richards Vs Zack Sabre Jr_ - ****1/4


----------



## topper1

Hulk vs Tozawa Dragon Gate ippv ****1/4
Steen vs Hero PWG **** 1/2 my MOTY so far I loved this match
Daniels vs Edwards 9 year **** 1/4


----------



## seabs

*LDRS Of The New School vs Adam Cole & Kyle O'Reilly - wXw Kreuzzug ZXI*
_Wasn't as crisp or fresh as their 16 Carat match but it's still great. The Sabre/Cole hate is awesome and I just hope it crosses over into their singles match on the CZW show. Crowd was the polar opposite to the german crowd for this, which was one of the best crowds I've ever seen but all the same the crowd didn't seem overly interested in this show. Would have been better if they had advanced on the other match more rather than re-running it.

****1/4_

*Daisuke Sekimoto vs Chris Hero - wXw Unified World Championship - Kreuzzug ZXI*
_Daisuke is probably the best tag worker going atm, actually scratch that cause I reckon he is, but he gets overrated as a singles guy a lot. I dont know if people see him in a singles match and think it's great because it's him and they dont see much of him and does dead lift suplexes but he doesn't have awesome singles matches like this as often as he should. Loved every bit of this though and it was genuinely interesting all the way through, unlike how a lot of Indy matches have hot starts and finishes but lackluster in the middle. Shame this didn't happen in Germany because with the proper wXw crowd and atmosphere I reckon this could have been in the serious running for MOTY. Still awesome though despite the poor crowd.

****1/4_

*Davey Richards & Briscoes vs Roderick Strong & Kings Of Wrestling - ROH on HDNet 04.04.2011*
_Last 5 minutes absolutely saved this from being nothing more than a bog standard ROH 6 man these days which is exactly where it was going too until the fucking great crowd and overbooked (in a good way) finish came along. Felt like a really fitting farewell to the TV show and they definitely went out on a good note.

***3/4_


----------



## seabs

*Hiroshi Tanahashi vs Satoshi Kojima - IWGP Heavyweight Championship - NJPW 20.02.2011*
_This was great and definitely better than their G1 and WK matches. The match had a really good angle where Tanahashi got dropped with a DDT and they sold it like it was a huge deal and they played off that a couple of times in the match. Wasn't Jake Roberts DDTs Ric Flair in 80's Mid South level of greatness but it was neat. New Japan really have a nack of making their big main event matches feel significant and a big deal and 9 times out of 10 they deliver as big time matches too. 

****1/4_

*I'm not the biggest fan of Naito or Goto but for those who do like them they had a really good match too that fans of them will probably love. The Kasai/Havoc death match from CZW's Best Of The Best X show will probably get some MOTYC level praise from that niche of fans too.*


----------



## KingKicks

*ROH on HDNet 4/4*

Davey Richards and The Briscoes vs. Roderick Strong and The Kings of Wrestling - ****¾-*****
_Took a while to get into it but it eventually built into a really fun, fast paced match and a pretty fitting way to end ROH's time on HDNet_


----------



## seancarleton77

Tanahashi vs. Kojima & Sekimoto vs. Bad Bones were excellent!


----------



## septurum

Satoshi Kojima (c) vs Hiroshi Tanahashi (NJPW 01/04/11)- ****


----------



## antoniomare007

Seabs said:


> _Daisuke is probably the best tag worker going atm, actually scratch that cause I reckon he is, but he gets overrated as a singles guy a lot. *I dont know if people see him in a singles match and think it's great because it's him and they dont see much of him and does dead lift suplexes* but he doesn't have awesome singles matches like this as often as he should. _


that and the fact that he comes of as a damn beast in most of his matches. I personally love his slow big heavyweight battles but I also admit that he is more of a "good/very good" singles match type of guy than an "awesome/epic" singles worker.

---

Tanahashi vs Kojima was pretty damn good, I'm not a fan of Kojima but Tana always finds ways to have entertaining matches with him.


----------



## Nervosa

Suguira vs. Giant bernard
****

There's a lot of good in this match. Bernard pulls off the brutal monster extremely well, and sells Suguira's mini-comebacks really well. His workover on Sugiura's back is also very good, as is Sugi's comeback. The best thing in the match was the running story of Sugiura trying to get that damn German suplex. I don't know if the German botch was on purpose or not: if it was, its brilliant. The overall story, on paper, is pretty excellent, but there are some serious delivery flaws. While Bernard sold the mini-comebacks fine, when it was actually time for Sugira to do some damage, I don't think it worked. I don't understand how Albert can completely no-sell the olympic slam the first time, but get pinned by it in the end. I don't know why the ankle lock segment never led to anything, and how Albert never sold it. The ending stretch, in general, felt very plodding and purposeless. Again, essentially good, but lacking overall.


----------



## seancarleton77

Naito vs. Goto was very well done. Goto looked like Godzilla & Naito oozed Fighting Spirit!


----------



## topper1

Tanahashi vs Kojima 2/20 ****. Much better then the G1 match imo. Would have rated it a little higher if the arm work would have been worked into the finish.


----------



## Sunglasses

Carat 2011, LDRS vs. Cole/O'Reily: ****1/4+ 

This is tag wrestling. Cole and O'Reily played their roles so well, aww. Great!


----------



## Mr Joe Perfect

Just watched the LDRS vs. Cole/O'Reily tag match from the WXW Carat show. I didn't think it was as great as everyone else has to be honest. Definately a good match though. I'd probably go about ***3/4 for it. Meanwhile I did think the Davey vs. Zack Sabre Jr. match was great. ****1/4.


----------



## Nervosa

WARNING: LONG POST

Undertaker vs. Hunter Hearst Helmsley
***1/2

Over the past 4 years or so, I have fallen in love with enough Japanese Junior matches to understand how a spotfest can be done in order to protect the storytelling necessity in a match. Yes, we have all seen a match where spots replaced story, and while we may marvel at the athleticism and the ability to take a beating, eventually, we have to admit that a story needs to be in place for a match to have any kind of quality.

For the first half of this match, there wasn’t a story. I know others have said that the story was that Trips was the first man ‘bad’ enough to take a fight to the Undertaker, but I’m sorry: the match itself didn’t reflect that. From the get-go, we had slugging, and then we had spots, and then we had lying around. Triple H’s spear into the Cole Mine looked crappy and painless. He had almost no velocity, and had to push twice just to get the thing to break. Taker backdrops Trips off the announce table, and staggers around into the ring, where EVERYONE knew he was about to hit his dive. He’s done it enough times at Mania that it loses a lot of its allure. It was cool in the first place because you had never seen a man his size do it. Now, we have….for the past 5 years or so, and its lost its luster. 

Any story that would have come into play is derailed by the random shifts in control. In the aforementioned Japanese Junior matches, they don’t just hit spots straight after one another: they usually need at least two counters to regain enough control to hit big moves. Taker match against Shawn at WM25 failed to do this, but at 26, they fixed it with a nice, subtle workover of Taker’s leg. This match fails worse than even the WM25 match did. Taker is spinebustered through the table, thrown in the ring, yet he is IMMEDIATELY able to hit Trips with a chokeslam. Trips takes two BIG chairshots, and then gets up and immediately manages to hit the first pedigree. I’m sorry, I don’t care how big of a star you are: That makes no sense.

There are also some real head-scratching parts in this section. Trips mounts the corner, and gets countered into the Last Ride, which he escapes. But then later in the match, he moutns the corner THE EXACT SAME WAY (first off:WHY?!?!) then gets countered THE EXACT SAME WAY, but for some reason, even though he has seen this EXACT sequence already, and even though he had the wherewithal to mount the corner, he somehow CANT escape this time? Why? I think they blew the spot the first time, and had to repeat it, as it’s the only way this makes sense.

Triple H hit the pedigree the first time, and no one cared. He hit it the second time, and since Undertaker hadn’t had a big comeback, it took all the suspense out of it. I didn’t buy the second, or third pedigree for a second, and I don’t really see how you could. It really shows not only how limited Trips’ moveset is, but also little he can actually do outside of hardcore rules. 

All of this lends to the bigger problem: no one gains serious control for the first 15 or so minutes. If Taker had gained control, we might remember how powerful the streak really is. If Trips did, then it could build up what a bad ass he really is, and increase the idea that the streak might be broken. Instead, neither do so, and therefore, a story fails to be built. 

The first semblance of any control segment is when HHH wails on Undertaker with 9 consecutive chairshots. This got my attention, and finally got me to care about Triple H’s character in the match. I honestly thought to myself: this is where they save the match. The Tombstone was a great spot, but even here…with NO real tease that the Undertaker was ever in any semblance of control in this match, I can’t say I ever took the Tombstone spot seriously. If it had honestly ended there, it would have looked like Taker NEVER stood a chance, considering how he was never in the drivers’ seat.

I get the segment with the sledgehammer at the end (even though it’s a recycled version of the HIAC match against Batista) But the Hell’s Gate was just WAY too ‘out of nowhere.’ Taker didn’t look strong in this match at all. He looked TOUGH, but not STRONG. The Hell’s Gate itself was very sloppy in execution, and Taker kinda had to re-lock it in. Even this, from a storyline standpoint, made little sense. You expect me to believe after that after that kind of beating, HHH just walks straight into it, and has no idea how to fight out of the hold, even though Taker is flubbing the execution. That kills a lot of this for me.

In summary, Triple H’s final control session and everything that happened AFTER the Gate was locked in was excellent. The rest was pretty mediocre. I’m sorry, but I don’t think I’m being too demanding in asking for a serious control session before a real, extended comeback in order to be enthralled by a match. Everyone go watch Ito vs. Kasai from a couple years ago, substitute the deathmatch for ‘hardcore’ spots, and you’ll see how you do a hardcore match and tell a story at the same time. A lesser example is actually HHH’s match against Shawn from Summerslam 02, for those who don’t wanna foray into deathmatch. As for this match, there’s just not enough actual story or substance for me to ignore the often-sloppy execution between the huge spots.


----------



## The REAL MP

Dear lord, I think I just turned into a virgin again after reading that.


----------



## topper1

Nervosa said:


> Undertaker vs. Hunter Hearst Helmsley
> ***1/2


Didn't read your long post but I agree with your rating of this overrated match. Will be a true shame when the WWE die hards get this voted MOTY.


----------



## jawbreaker

Nervosa said:


> WARNING: LONG POST
> 
> Undertaker vs. Hunter Hearst Helmsley
> ***1/2
> 
> Over the past 4 years or so, I have fallen in love with enough Japanese Junior matches to understand how a spotfest can be done in order to protect the storytelling necessity in a match. Yes, we have all seen a match where spots replaced story, and while we may marvel at the athleticism and the ability to take a beating, eventually, we have to admit that a story needs to be in place for a match to have any kind of quality.
> 
> For the first half of this match, there wasn’t a story. I know others have said that the story was that Trips was the first man ‘bad’ enough to take a fight to the Undertaker, but I’m sorry: the match itself didn’t reflect that. From the get-go, we had slugging, and then we had spots, and then we had lying around. Triple H’s spear into the Cole Mine looked crappy and painless. He had almost no velocity, and had to push twice just to get the thing to break. Taker backdrops Trips off the announce table, and staggers around into the ring, where EVERYONE knew he was about to hit his dive. He’s done it enough times at Mania that it loses a lot of its allure. It was cool in the first place because you had never seen a man his size do it. Now, we have….for the past 5 years or so, and its lost its luster.
> 
> Any story that would have come into play is derailed by the random shifts in control. In the aforementioned Japanese Junior matches, they don’t just hit spots straight after one another: they usually need at least two counters to regain enough control to hit big moves. Taker match against Shawn at WM25 failed to do this, but at 26, they fixed it with a nice, subtle workover of Taker’s leg. This match fails worse than even the WM25 match did. Taker is spinebustered through the table, thrown in the ring, yet he is IMMEDIATELY able to hit Trips with a chokeslam. Trips takes two BIG chairshots, and then gets up and immediately manages to hit the first pedigree. I’m sorry, I don’t care how big of a star you are: That makes no sense.
> 
> There are also some real head-scratching parts in this section. Trips mounts the corner, and gets countered into the Last Ride, which he escapes. But then later in the match, he moutns the corner THE EXACT SAME WAY (first off:WHY?!?!) then gets countered THE EXACT SAME WAY, but for some reason, even though he has seen this EXACT sequence already, and even though he had the wherewithal to mount the corner, he somehow CANT escape this time? Why? I think they blew the spot the first time, and had to repeat it, as it’s the only way this makes sense.
> 
> Triple H hit the pedigree the first time, and no one cared. He hit it the second time, and since Undertaker hadn’t had a big comeback, it took all the suspense out of it. I didn’t buy the second, or third pedigree for a second, and I don’t really see how you could. It really shows not only how limited Trips’ moveset is, but also little he can actually do outside of hardcore rules.
> 
> All of this lends to the bigger problem: no one gains serious control for the first 15 or so minutes. If Taker had gained control, we might remember how powerful the streak really is. If Trips did, then it could build up what a bad ass he really is, and increase the idea that the streak might be broken. Instead, neither do so, and therefore, a story fails to be built.
> 
> The first semblance of any control segment is when HHH wails on Undertaker with 9 consecutive chairshots. This got my attention, and finally got me to care about Triple H’s character in the match. I honestly thought to myself: this is where they save the match. The Tombstone was a great spot, but even here…with NO real tease that the Undertaker was ever in any semblance of control in this match, I can’t say I ever took the Tombstone spot seriously. If it had honestly ended there, it would have looked like Taker NEVER stood a chance, considering how he was never in the drivers’ seat.
> 
> I get the segment with the sledgehammer at the end (even though it’s a recycled version of the HIAC match against Batista) But the Hell’s Gate was just WAY too ‘out of nowhere.’ Taker didn’t look strong in this match at all. He looked TOUGH, but not STRONG. The Hell’s Gate itself was very sloppy in execution, and Taker kinda had to re-lock it in. Even this, from a storyline standpoint, made little sense. You expect me to believe after that after that kind of beating, HHH just walks straight into it, and has no idea how to fight out of the hold, even though Taker is flubbing the execution. That kills a lot of this for me.
> 
> In summary, Triple H’s final control session and everything that happened AFTER the Gate was locked in was excellent. The rest was pretty mediocre. I’m sorry, but I don’t think I’m being too demanding in asking for a serious control session before a real, extended comeback in order to be enthralled by a match. Everyone go watch Ito vs. Kasai from a couple years ago, substitute the deathmatch for ‘hardcore’ spots, and you’ll see how you do a hardcore match and tell a story at the same time. A lesser example is actually HHH’s match against Shawn from Summerslam 02, for those who don’t wanna foray into deathmatch. As for this match, there’s just not enough actual story or substance for me to ignore the often-sloppy execution between the huge spots.


I can't disagree with any of this, in fact this was very close to my thought process with one major exception: abandoning the fact that this is pro wrestling and everyone gets offense unless it's a squash, why should Taker ever have been in control? He's a 46-year-old man coming off injury after injury after injury, his body is breaking down, and this is his 19th WrestleMania. Triple H isn't exactly young either, but he's in much better physical condition.

Read my post a few pages back and it'll explain what I liked about this match. Otherwise I agree with you and I think you went a lot deeper into the match than I did.


----------



## antoniomare007

> why should Taker ever have been in control? He's a 46-year-old man coming off injury after injury after injury, his body is breaking down, and this is his 19th WrestleMania.


and since the Kane feud there has been this kinda subtle angle that Taker is not as powerful as he once was.


----------



## Bubz

I mostly agree with that post *Nervosa*, but i didn't mind Trips controlling most of the match. If anything i thought that added to the story of Taker not being the same as he once was. To me, the match was more of a way to show that the streak is coming to an end soon.


----------



## TelkEvolon

It will kinda save some face for The Undertaker if someone breaks the streak. No one could touch him at his best. Now he has grow old and is in his "dying days".

Whoever beats never would of stood a chance before.


----------



## jawbreaker

Honestly, I think that match could have been a logical endpoint for the Streak. Next year I think they'll do Taker vs. Triple H again, and I think they'll continue the story they told this year, and have it be Taker's last Mania match.


----------



## Corey

It wasn't quite MOTYC level imo, but TNA put on their best singles match in a long time tonight at Lockdown. Sadly it'll probably end up being the best one they do all year...

*Ultra Man Rules 2/3 Falls
*Kurt Angle vs. Jeff Jarrett - ***3/4
_The 3rd fall was obviously the selling point here. The fact that Angle put his his own body and basically his career at risk so many times in this match is remarkable and makes this worth watching on its own. The botched hurracanrana/power bomb spot off the top rope made 5 guys cringe like bitches, including myself, but then you see the replay and it doesn't look as bad. haha. It was a bit overbooked in the end but you knew that was gonna happen. The only real compaint I have is the several identical things you saw from the Angle/Anderson match from the last year. The moonsault, the key thing, being able to win but coming back in, etc. Still it's a great match on Angle's part alone that's definitely worth a watch, albeit not as good as his match with Anderson. Didn't quite tell the story that one did. OH! And did anyone read that thing on twitter on how Angle's tired of WWE guys using his moves? Angle actually busted out an RKO with the whole beating on the mat thing and all. It was awesome._


----------



## jawbreaker

Yeah, because Kurt Angle totally invented the ankle lock.


----------



## Rickey

I thought the match was good too, the botches(2?) hurt it a little. Glad Angle didn't break his neck on that frankensteiner attempt and Jack you're right about the similarities to Angle/Anderson adding Karen to the mix made gave Jarrett more of the advantage and that element frustrated me. This is one of the matches that proves kayfabe wise: "If you have the chance to leave the cage...then do it." I understand Angle wanting to punish Jarrett but it ended up costing him. That RKO was surprising, the crowd seemed to "get" that spot too. The fact that they were alive in this match really added to it also.

Also enjoyed:
Pope/Joe
Lethal Lockdown

I liked the triple threat title match and the fact that nobody turned but...man too much was going on, I felt it should have went on at least 5 more minutes it was pretty fast paced for a Sting(2011) match.(Not a Victory Road pun)


----------



## -Mystery-

**3/4 max for Angle/Jarrett.


----------



## Chismo

***1/2


----------



## Nervosa

bubz123 said:


> I mostly agree with that post *Nervosa*, but i didn't mind Trips controlling most of the match. If anything i thought that added to the story of Taker not being the same as he once was. To me, the match was more of a way to show that the streak is coming to an end soon.


I'm going to kinda combine my response to this to my response to jawbreaker as well. 

First off, my problem was not that Trips controlled the match the most: to me, he actually didn't at all. My problem was that there was ONLY one control session, and that Taker didn't get one at all. I think the streak needed to be built as something DIFFICULT to break, and that fact needed to be reflected in a match.

Jaws asked why Taker should get any offense since he is older, but he did say to abandon the fact that its pro wrestling, which in all honesty, I can't do. For me to be enthralled in the story of the match, I need to be convinced that the streak is legitimately going to be something difficult to break, and nothing in this match made it feel that way.

I understand that The E is trying to tell the story of Taker's decent, but I'm not evaluating the storyline: I'm evaluating the match. For me, a storyline has never been worth the lacklustre quality of a match that was built as much as this was. When you look at this match itself, the streak didn't end up looking strong, and Hunter didn't end up looking strong (espeically if, as you say, Taker is nothing more than a deteriorating old man).....and therefore, I found it impossible to care.


----------



## Bubz

Nervosa said:


> I'm going to kinda combine my response to this to my response to jawbreaker as well.
> 
> *First off, my problem was not that Trips controlled the match the most: to me, he actually didn't at all. My problem was that there was ONLY one control session, and that Taker didn't get one at all. I think the streak needed to be built as something DIFFICULT to break, and that fact needed to be reflected in a match.*
> 
> Jaws asked why Taker should get any offense since he is older, but he did say to abandon the fact that its pro wrestling, which in all honesty, I can't do. For me to be enthralled in the story of the match, I need to be convinced that the streak is legitimately going to be something difficult to break, and nothing in this match made it feel that way.
> 
> I understand that The E is trying to tell the story of Taker's decent, but I'm not evaluating the storyline: I'm evaluating the match. For me, a storyline has never been worth the lacklustre quality of a match that was built as much as this was. When you look at this match itself, the streak didn't end up looking strong, and Hunter didn't end up looking strong (espeically if, as you say, Taker is nothing more than a deteriorating old man).....and therefore, I found it impossible to care.


Ah i see, yeah i can see your point here.


----------



## jawbreaker

Nervosa said:


> I'm going to kinda combine my response to this to my response to jawbreaker as well.
> 
> First off, my problem was not that Trips controlled the match the most: to me, he actually didn't at all. My problem was that there was ONLY one control session, and that Taker didn't get one at all. I think the streak needed to be built as something DIFFICULT to break, and that fact needed to be reflected in a match.
> 
> Jaws asked why Taker should get any offense since he is older, but he did say to abandon the fact that its pro wrestling, which in all honesty, I can't do. For me to be enthralled in the story of the match, I need to be convinced that the streak is legitimately going to be something difficult to break, and nothing in this match made it feel that way.
> 
> I understand that The E is trying to tell the story of Taker's decent, but I'm not evaluating the storyline: I'm evaluating the match. For me, a storyline has never been worth the lacklustre quality of a match that was built as much as this was. When you look at this match itself, the streak didn't end up looking strong, and Hunter didn't end up looking strong (espeically if, as you say, Taker is nothing more than a deteriorating old man).....and therefore, I found it impossible to care.


I think you might be overlooking the stretcher job Taker did. Yes, it was outside of the actual match, but it was part of the story regardless. To me, that, combined with the Tombstone spot, told the story well enough for me to enjoy the match despite all its flaws. It made the Streak look strong, while at the same time making Taker look weak. The match was never about Triple H.

Your criticism of the match itself I don't disagree with. I think it was slow and plodding and disorganized and the execution of many moves (the Gate in particular) was poor. But they told their story magnificently, and on the rare occasions that I watch WWE, that is what I watch for.


----------



## Paroxysm

First post, just gonna list off matches I've watched this year I think are above 4 stars.

*WWE*
Edge vs Rey Mysterio vs Kane vs Drew McIntyre vs Big Show vs Wade Barrett, Elimination Chamber ****1/4 
John Morrison vs CM Punk vs John Cena vs Sheamus vs Randy Orton vs R-Truth, Elimination Chamber ****1/4
Undertaker vs Triple H, Wrestlemania 27 ****1/4

*PWG*
Chris Hero vs Kevin Steen, Kurt RussellReunion 2 ****1/4

*ROH*
Davey Richards & WGTT vs Roderick Strong & KOW, Worlds Greatest ****1/4
Eddie Edwards vs Christopher Daniels, 9th Anniversary Show ****1/4
Eddie Edwards vs Christopher Daniels, Honor Takes Center Stage I ****1/4

*DGUSA*
Akira Tozawa vs BxB Hulk, United We Stand ****1/2

*wXw*
Leaders vs O'Rielly/Cole, 16 Carat Gold ****1/2
Davey Richards vs Zach Sabre Jr, 16 Carat Gold ****1/4

*NOAH*
Kotaro Suzuki vs Eddie Edwards, The First Navigation ****1/2

My event of the year so far is probably PWG Kurt RussellReunion 2. Not the best wrestling show but just a great mixed bag of comedy/wrestling/nostalgia. Excalibur/Cabana are gold on commentary. The Helms/Ryan match was pretty bad and the legends rumble was ruined with the music dubs but it was still great to see a lot of those old faces and the final 2 was awesome. Low Ki/Richards was something of a dream match (I know they have wrestled before but this is the first I've got to see) and the main event was an excellent match as well. Just had a lot of fun watching this.


----------



## geraldinhio

Havn't watched Angle/Jarrett yet.Not sure will I either ,can't stand Kurt's matches anymore .But I did really enjoy his previous encounters with Jarrett .Jack Evans 187 seems to praise it ,but is it worth watching?Seen some of the highlights on Botchamania :lmao at Taz's commentating at the ref couting the shoulders during the submission stipulation .Can't stand Kurt moonsaulting off the cage too.The mans gonna end up in a wheelchair sooner than later.


----------



## lewieG

PWG Kurt RussellReunion 2

Claudio Castagnoli vs El Generico: ****1/4


----------



## Goku

Don't watch it. It's a DUD.

@ geraldinhio


----------



## geraldinhio

Hohenheim of Light said:


> Don't watch it. It's a DUD.
> 
> @ geraldinhio


That bad? I heard it getting some praise ,but a lot of Kurt's spotfests do .Like against Hardy ,which I hated.


----------



## Goku

It's absolutely nonsensical. I wouldn't necessarily say it's difficult to sit through b/c it wasn't. I was laughing at everything they were doing b/c it was absurdity epitomized. I doubt I'll find it funny if I watch it again tho.

If you could make sense of that match, hats off to you. I don't even know what the point of that match was. To make with the funny?


----------



## Paroxysm

The match had a hot crowd but that's all I can say for it. From the ref not knowing the type of fall part one was, to Jarret almost killing Angle with the botched super powerbomb, the botched moonsault, the lame finish and all the little hiccups in between it was pretty much a train wreck.


----------



## seabs

*At least it wasn't as bad as Angle/Hardy.*


----------



## seancarleton77

Seabs said:


> *At least it wasn't as bad as Angle/Hardy.*


If Jenna & Sharmell aren't involved I'm afraid it just isn't possible to be any worse than Hardy vs. Angle.


----------



## Bubz

*PWG Kurt RussellReunion 2 - Claudio Castagnoli vs El Generico ****1/2*

Wow! What a fanfuckintastic match this is. Generico remains THE best baby face in wrestling, and Claudio is just an absolute beast, IMO him and Hero are the two best wrestlers on the indy's. This was alot better than their Race To The Top match. Great leg work by Claudio snd great selling all the way through by Generico, and the finishing stretch was one of the best i have seen for ages. The stretch Muffler into the swing was insane. Just awesome, i didn't think it would top Hero/Steen from this show but this may be my match of the year

The promo's afterwards were great and very funny, Claudio is just great at pretty much everything.


----------



## Alan4L

Read a load of the Carat reviews. Stoked that people liked it so much. Interesting that the consensus is that the Zack/Davey match and the LDRS tag were better than Generico/Daisuke. I'd actually go with that as my fave match.

also LOL at people complaining about the German commentary, when they could have turned it off if they bought the DVD, haha.

speaking of commentary - anyone have any feedback on how I did on the LDRS match? I watched it back last night and while it was weird as hell hearing myself, I thought I did ok.


----------



## Caponex75

I thought you were better than the actual commentator. Did a good job I thought.


----------



## sXsCanadianFansXs

Alan4L said:


> Read a load of the Carat reviews. Stoked that people liked it so much. Interesting that the consensus is that the Zack/Davey match and the LDRS tag were better than Generico/Daisuke. I'd actually go with that as my fave match.
> 
> also LOL at people complaining about the German commentary, when they could have turned it off if they bought the DVD, haha.
> 
> speaking of commentary - anyone have any feedback on how I did on the LDRS match? I watched it back last night and while it was weird as hell hearing myself, I thought I did ok.


I'm planning on watching it tonight so I can let you know.

First off, is it in English? lol.
And if so, how do I distinguish you from the other guys?

Was it your first time doing commentary btw?


EDIT: You were good. Your enthusiasm was welcomed even if the match disappointed me.


----------



## seancarleton77

I have Leaders of the New School vs. Cole & O'Reilly just behind Sekimoto vs. Generico after further review.


----------



## sXsCanadianFansXs

Almost caught up. Just have to watch the LDRS/Cole + O'Reilly tag from the iPPV, Angle/Jarrett and King of Trios.

Anyway:

-Roderick Strong, Chris Hero & Claudio Castagnoli vs. Davey Richards & The Briscoes (Ring of Honor on HDNet, April 5th, **** - ****1/4)
Not as good as the World's Greatest 6-man but a fitting finale for the HDNet era. This was just six of the best wrestlers on the indy circuit trying to make a statement. I didn't mind the interference of Del Rey, Hagadorn or Truth because they all got taken out in a nice bit of revenge. 

-WxW Unified World Championship: Daisuke Sekimoto (c) vs. Chris Hero (WxW Kreuzzug ZXI, April 9th, ****+)
I really liked this. They both delivered with awesome strikes and it's nice to see Sekimoto wrestle someone that's heavier than 200 lbs. It was good that they didn't do the overkill finish but the dead crowd and wacky commentating hurt the match a bit.

WxW 16 Carat Gold Tournament:

-Go Shiozaki vs. Kotaro Suzuki (WxW 16 Carat Gold Tournament, March 12th, ***1/2)
I'm not a big fan of intense sequences of wrestling followed by more sequences with no selling or breathing time. Also, some of the work seemed a bit sloppy (body slam to the outside, a few strikes). 

-Daisuke Sekimoto vs. El Generico (WxW 16 Carat Gold Tournament, March 13th, ****1/4) 
The best match of the weekend imo. Generico is on another level as a babyface and Sekimoto has impressed me with each match. They told the classic story of speed vs. power with Generico's phenomenal selling (props to selling the beating while in the air for a german suplex). It was a tad short but completely great. It doesn't quite make my top 5 but Generico has been completely awesome this year and can be depended on to have a phenomenal match in any promotion.

-Davey Richards vs. Zack Sabre Jr. (WxW 16 Carat Gold Tournament, March 12th, ****)
I've seen a lot of high ratings thrown around for this bout and I can't say I agree. I have one big problem with the match and it's that Zack is just not a believable threat to Richards. He's way too small and lanky for me to suspend disbelief. They worked hard with innovative counters and nice strikes but Zack never made me think he was near the same level as Davey.

-Colt Cabana vs. Marty Scurrl (WxW 16 Carat Gold Tournament, March 12th, N/R)
Hilarious match. Not quite as good as Cabana/Delirious from one of the FYF shows but the best comedy match I've seen in a long time.

-LDRS of the New School vs. Adam Cole & Kyle O'Reilly (WxW 16 Carat Gold Tournament, March 13th, ****)
I had high hopes for this and it didn't meet my expectations. There was some great offense but there were way too many problems for me to consider it a legit MotYC. I felt the comedy took away from the bout, it was overly choreographed (especially some of the double team moves) and there were a million momentum changes. This was a typical indy spotfest with four talented wrestlers. They had the cliche indy superkicks, very little selling and some ridiculous spots. With that said, the bout showed the impressive skillset of Cole & O'Reilly. This would've been a great highlight reel. As a match, it's very good... but a MotYC? Very overrated.

All in all, a great weekend but nothing cracks my top 5.
Generico/Sekimoto is fantastic, though.


EDIT: 
-LDRS of the New School vs. Adam Cole & Kyle O'Reilly (WxW Kreuzzug ZXI, April 9th, ***3/4)
If you liked the first match, you'll probably enjoy this one a tad more than me. They repeated a few of the spots from their match in Germany but all four made a good effort to put on a show. The dead crowd didn't do them any favors but I loved the finish.

-Steel Cage: Ultra Male Rules: Jeff Jarrett vs. Kurt Angle (TNA Lockdown, April 17th, ***1/4ish)
Kurt said that this was as good as WM21 against Michaels. Uhh... what? From the stupid ref calls, the contrived spots and the overbooked lame finish, this was nowhere near as good as Angle's best matches. I applaud the effort they made but nearly every big spot they did, they botched horribly.


----------



## Zatiel

In case you haven't seen KING OF TRIOS yet, avoid THIS POST. There might be SPOILERS.

Just in case.

So, El Generico Vs. 1-2-3 Kid might not be the best match of the year. Damn was it fun, though. After a lifetime of seeing Waltman use that Facebuster as a certain-pin, having Generico kick out multiple times was a great thrill. They traded big moves and showed a lot of respect. Generico's Razor's Edge was classy. I can see some people bitching about the botched Super Spinning DDT or whatever it was. However, Waltman's knee is insanely injured and he claims it'll be six months recovery time. Given that they recovered mid-fall and he did a bridging pin spot, it detracted nothing for me. After Generico had the performance of the tournament last year only to get denied, it was great to see him in the finals this year, alongside Waltman, who legitimately deserved to win it as well. The crowd was also wonderful and I felt more touched by Waltman's post-match reaction than by anything at 'Mania this year.


----------



## antoniomare007

spoilers

*King Of Trios 2011, Rey de Voladores Final*

Amazing match. There are some things that people may nitpick or simply don't like about this match but fuck it, this was awesome. I have a new respecto for Sean Waltman, he did everything he could to make this match special, Generico makes this even better being his usual awesome self. Just go watch this.


----------



## The REAL MP

Waltman was very much the best part of that entire weekend. There are a lot of parallels you could draw between his story and Larry Sweeney's, that I don't want to get into too deeply but needless to say if it weren't for Alicia Webb, Sean would be the exact same sad story. But now his story is entirely about redemption, and not just for him but for the fans and the other wrestlers as well, and it was incredibly heart-warming to see.


----------



## Rickey

Haven't seen the shows but Waltman has always been under the radar to me, noone ever talks about that fact that he's still solid in the ring even at his age. Glad he's getting some props.


----------



## sXsCanadianFansXs

Holy shit. After watching over nine hours of Chikara within two days, I am pretty burnt out on indy wrestling.

The three shows range from good to great with a remarkable 18 out of 24 matches hitting three stars or more. Three matches clocked in at 4 stars or more and they are the following:

-F.I.S.T vs. Team Osaka Pro (Chikara King of Trios 2011 Night Two, April 16th, ****)
Smooth, crisp wrestling is the highlight of this match. I have a hard time caring about multi-man matches because all too often the teams have no personality other than "good, hard-hitting wrestler" but F.I.S.T are great heels. Each of them stood out and proved why they're a cut above most other indy wrestlers.

-Rey de Voladores Final: El Generico vs. The 1-2-3 Kid (Chikara King of Trios 2011 Night Three, ****1/4)
Sure, 1-2-3 Kid has poor conditioning. And yeah the moves weren't perfectly executed... but I'm not sure I've seen a more compelling and emotional match since Steen/Generico at Final Battle. I've said it before and I'll say it again: El Generico is one of the best wrestlers in the world. He lead Waltman to a dramatic conclusion while hiding his weaknesses along the way. A satisfying bout that lands itself at #5 in the best matches of this year. 

-2011 King of Trios Final: F.I.S.T (Chuck Taylor, Johnny Gargano & Icarus) vs. The Colony (Fire Ant, Soldier Ant & Green Ant) ****1/4
F.I.S.T are so great. These two teams pulled out everything to end King of Trios in style. It was refreshing to see such clear heels and babyfaces in indy wrestling as both teams took advantage of the audiences biases for a memorable encounter.


----------



## geraldinhio

1-2-3 kid vs El Generico :King Of The Trios Night 3-Generico proved why he is easily one of the best wrestlers in the world.He doesn't have to say a word and can be the most emotive wrestler in the world .Kid's effort needs great prasie too ,I wasn't too happy when Waltman was announced for KOT .I thought he was there for name value and that alone.But by God did he bust his balls in this match .Awesome performance from both. **** 

Any Puro worth cathing up on?I'v kept up with a lot of NJPW.What about NOAH?


----------



## Bubz

Well, i know what i'm doing tonight. I havn't seen waltman wrestle since his last WWE days.


----------



## jawbreaker

Man, I didn't think Waltman/Generico was all that great. Maybe I was burnt out after eight hours of Trios. I haven't watched any wrestling since.


----------



## antoniomare007

Zatiel and CanadianFan summed it up perfectly. It wasn't a perfectly executed match or something "epic", but just an emotional and compeling match. 

The fact that I watched Night 2 and 3 of KOT 3 days apart might have helped my enjoyment too.


----------



## topper1

jawbreaker said:


> Man, I didn't think Waltman/Generico was all that great.


Cause it wasn't. It was an emotional match and had a good finish but that can only get you so far. I didn't watch Sean's other matches from that weekend but El carried him hardcore on night 3.


----------



## sXsCanadianFansXs

topper1 said:


> Cause it wasn't. It was an emotional match and had a good finish but that can only get you so far. I didn't watch Sean's other matches from that weekend but El carried him hardcore on night 3.


It's probably the most flawed match that I've rated **** (or above) this year. And I know people will scoff that this Generico match is the one in my top five over his great matches with Claudio and Sekimoto, but this bout is the most memorable. 

Wrestling is all about telling stories. I would be hard pressed to tell you about any of the trios matches (or singles matches) at King of Trios because they were all so similar. This match, although not an epic fast-paced encounter like the rest of the card, stood out with its deliberate pace and importance on big moves. I was invested in watching the 1-2-3 Kid wrestle (like it's 1995) and put in a great effort even though he may be past his prime, even though Generico is the next great high flyer. Workrate wise, this one isn't great. But I don't think anyone can deny that seeing Waltman return after all of his emotional battles to wrestle El Generico, in a match that had the crowd giving them multiple standing ovations, isn't worthy of some praise. 

It's a match that probably won't age well and one that probably won't be entered into any serious match of the year discussion in december. But dammit, Waltman (and Generico) should be proud of that match.

Also... the Razor's Edge? Loved that.


----------



## topper1

I agree 100% with everything you said its even my favorite Generico match of the 3 you named as well. Only thing I don't agree with is the MOTYC talk and anything over **** I felt the ***3/4 I gave it was more then fair.


----------



## Corey

I'd give 123 Kid vs. Generico ***1/2 - ***3/4. It was great considering Sean hadn't really wrestled a serious match in years but no MOTYC talk from me. Loved his speech afterwards though.


----------



## Bubz

Jack Evans 187 said:


> I'd give 123 Kid vs. Generico ***1/2 - ***3/4. It was great considering Sean hadn't really wrestled a serious match in years but no MOTYC talk from me. Loved his speech afterwards though.


Completely agree. To say this match is better than Generico/Claudio is insane!!! Insane i tell you!!!


----------



## starship.paint

bubz123 said:


> Completely agree. To say this match is better than Generico/Claudio is insane!!! Insane i tell you!!!


"Insane" or what, every guy is entitled to his opinion, fortunately or unfortunately...


----------



## Bubz

starship.paint said:


> "Insane" or what, every guy is entitled to his opinion, fortunately or unfortunately...


Lol, calm down dude, just a joke. Do you actualy think i'm claiming people to be mentally deranged?


----------



## Zatiel

topper1 said:


> I agree 100% with everything you said its even my favorite Generico match of the 3 you named as well. Only thing I don't agree with is the MOTYC talk and anything over **** I felt the ***3/4 I gave it was more then fair.


To be fair, most of this thread isn't actually MOTYC talk. No way are there several hundred MOTYCs. Really ought to rename it "The 2011 Matches We Loved Thread."

But Kid/Generico stands right now as one of my favorites of the year. If I was doing a list, it'd go on there. The biggest negative I could give it is the simple indy super-match structure it followed. The second half is almost entirely, "My run of nearfalls, your run of nearfalls, finishing stretch." That it was Waltman doing it made it feel fresher than when someone like Shingo or Richards does. It remains a very good execution of that structure, though.


----------



## Bubz

I enjoyed the hell out of it, but it wasn't a MOTYC to me. It was just cool seeing Waltman doing his thing and seeing that he is still good in the ring. There has rarely been a Generico match i didn't enjoy though. The guy is awesome. Waltmans speech afterwards was amazing though, you could tell he was talking from the heart. It is something everyone should watch, but i still don't consider it a MOTYC, probably around ***3/4.


----------



## Paroxysm

CHIKARA King Of Trios
El Generico vs 1-2-3 Kid ****

Couldn't believe how great this was, great to see Sean doing well. Generico continues to be one of the best guys on the indy circuit.


WWE Superstars 4/28
Tyson Kidd vs Trent Baretta ***3/4

Just posted online at WWE.com, very good showcase of two of the best young guys in the WWE today. Hopefully neither gets released, terrific in ring talent.


----------



## Chismo

*KENTA vs Yoshihiro Takayama* (NOAH, 1/15/2011)

Now, this was amazing! KENTA enters the match brutally, he wants to pin Takayama right away, he doesn't care about chain wrestling or grappling, and I'm telling you it was one helluva story telling by KENTA. Eventually KENTA makes one big mistake when he disrespects The Hot One by trying to pin him with the leg, which pisses off Takayama who then decides to kick the shit out of that young punk and throws him around just like that. Then you have some stiff as hell exchanges, but Takayama eventually gains control and pins KENTA with series of punches and suplexes. Amazing match.

******


----------



## Alan4L

INFINITY 208

MOCHI & FUJII VS. MARAHA ISAPPA - 5 STAAAAAAARS!

OH MY GOD

this topped Shingo/Hulk as my fave Dragon Gate match ever. 

If it had a tad more crowd heat it MIGHT be my favourite wrestling match ever. But as far as what these 4 men did, I am absolutely stunned. The Zetsurins deliver the single greatest ass whooping I've ever seen to Ryo & Genki and I'm sitting there thinking "Holy fuck, what the hell is happening here. This is something SPECIAL". The facial expressions are Kobashi and Nagata esque, the twists and turns are heart stopping, the strikes are fucking VICIOUS and on point..... this was just magic.

If something tops this for me this year, I'll be shocked.

2011 DG is here and it ain't playin' around.


----------



## CM Skittle

How many "5 star" matches do you have Alan4L? It must be at least like 10,000, lol.


----------



## topper1

Masaaki Mochizuki & Don Fujii vs Genki Horiguchi & Ryo Saito **** 1/4


----------



## peachchaos

So far:

1. 6-Man Tag: Davey Richards, Jay Briscoe and Mark Briscoe vs. Roderick Strong, Chris Hero, and Claudio Castagnoli (ROH on HDNet 4.4.11 ****1/2)

I have always been a very outspoken fan of the ROH on HDNet series, and the main event of their final broadcast perfectly sums up everything that the producers did right: professional f'n wrestling. Here we have arguably the six biggest names in ROH going at it for nearly half an hour and holding nothing back. I can't really find a fault to this match. The heel managers all FINALLY get their comeuppance as their constant need to interfere backfires, tying up a bunch of little story-lines for continuity's sake. Look, I realize this isn't exactly fade-to-black-last-episode-of-the-Sopranos, but this was a helluva match that I think needs to be seen by any wrestling fan. GREAT end to a GREAT wrestling show. It ended in the ring...with the faces going over huge.

2. PWG World Championship: Claudio Castagnoli (c) vs. El Generico (PWG Kurt Russelreunion 2: The Reunioning 1.29.11 ****1/4)

Between his flawless tag team run in ROH and his recent singles action in PWG, its hard for me to argue against Cladio Castagnoli deserving the current title of "Best in the World". However, one thing is for sure, right now there is no better face than El Generico. It almost feels like these two have the most fun out of any workers, too, which makes this an absolute pleasure to watch. On a night with so much excitement, these two prove why they're so high on the card and why they are regarded as the cream of the indie crop.

3. First Time Ever: Eddie Kingston vs El Generico (Chikara Chaos in the Sea of Lost Souls 1.23.11 ****1/4)

There are few dream matches left from the new age of independent wrestling, but pretty much every one of them involves Eddie Kingston. Recognized by many as the top promo man in the business (by a long shot), his in-ring stuff leaves many with something to be desired. Not me. And especially not when he's working with someone as adaptable as Generico. Kingston's style as a legit fighter from the streets recalls part of what I loved about 1996 Taz in ECW: the big fight feel. Here we have two guys with two different styles clashing in a fight for their lives. Or at least it feels that way. It feels desperate like MMA. In Chikara. This is why every fresh Kingston match is a dream match to me.

4. GHC Jr. Heavyweight Championship: Kotaro Suzuki (c) vs. Eddie Edwards (NOAH The First Navigation 1.29.11 ****1/4)
5. Davey Richards vs. Low Ki (PWG Kurt Russelreunion 2: The Reunioning 1.29.11 ****1/4)

I decided to include these two great singles outings from each member of the American Wolves rather than include their equally-as-amazing tag match from ROH with Haas and Benjamin. I think these are better showcases of where the individuals are at in 2011. Edwards is trying to spend as much time over seas perfecting his game (with great success obviously), while Richards can pretty much go anywhere in the world and have a marquee match. Suzuki is no slouch, and really proves a great rival for Edwards' unlimited potential. Low Ki is coming off a sorta depressing run in WWE and gives a fine performance in an intense Davey Richards match that somehow, someway, doesn't go over-the-top with no selling and kicking.

Honorable Mention:

123 Kid vs. El Generico ****
Chris Hero vs. Kevin Steen ****
Davey Richards vs. Roderick Strong ****1/4
American Wolves vs. WGTT ****1/4

There have been three really great independent wrestling events that were promoted as epic cards and actually delivered the goods.

PWG's Kurt WrestleReunion 2: The Reunioning had three legitimately awesome matches, with Hero vs. Steen probably being the weakest of the three by default. It was still a really well worked stiff match that saw two hard hitters finally come head-to-head. I think they've got an epic match in there somewhere, but this was a nice taste of what they could do in opposite corners.

ROH gave us more bang for our buck with two shows for $20 weekend broadcast WrestleMania weekend live on iPPV. Both nights delivered strong professional wrestling, with the usually suspects all competing in some great matches. The best of the batch for me were the Richards-Strong rematch from FB10 (which I also loved) and the dream tag Wolves-WGTT outing. Both of these matches would make a top 10 list.

Finally, Chikara delivered three nights of exceptional wrestling with the annual King of Trios event. Although there is some truly entertaining stuff on each night, nothing is perhaps as news worthy or fun to watch as Sean Waltman's singles match as 123 Kid against El Generico. Its not a perfect match, but then again Waltman was never a perfect match even back in the day. No, its not perfect. But it is a perfect Waltman match, and a fitting end to the return of the Kid. There's no point to the gimmick, other than the theme song and costume, but damn is it cool to see someone's career come full circle in a good way. Especially after Sweeney and hearing stories about Hall. I have a feeling that, after 2011 is gone and in the books, we'll still be talking about the return of the 1-2-3.


----------



## Rickey

Most of Extreme Rules was entertaining. Punk/Orton, Cody/Rey(maybe liked the WM match more) both title matches Christian/Del Rio and Cena/Miz/Morrison kinda felt like spot after spot though. Still worth a look, decent divas match too. Better than WM27 for sure.


----------



## Paroxysm

WWE Extreme Rules

CM Punk vs Randy Orton ***1/2
Sheamus vs Kofi Kingston ***1/2
Christian vs Alberto Del Rio ****1/4

Maybe an emotional over rate for Christian/ADR but I don't care. Awesome moment, haven't marked out like that in a long time.

I also really enjoyed the US title match, was entertained bell to bell for 10 minutes. Should've advertised this, but whatever.


----------



## KingKicks

*WWE Extreme Rules 2011*

Christian vs. Alberto Del Rio - ******
_I cannot remember the last time I've rooted so hard for someone to win a title. The match told the story of Christian's quest to finally become a world champion very well._


----------



## imEnigmaticAsshole

Benjo™;9656655 said:


> *WWE Extrene Rules 2011*
> 
> Christian vs. Alberto Del Rio - ******
> _I cannot remember the last time I've rooted so hard for someone to win a title. The match told the story of Christian's quest to finally become a world champion very well._


*i have to agree with you, cant remember the last time i marked out that hard

(by the way you spelt extreme wrong)*


----------



## KingKicks

Thanks for letting me know lol. Trying to type at 4am wasn't too easy.


----------



## TelkEvolon

Christians win being a big thing is lost on me. VERY watered down, he won because Edge left, not because he rose to greatness. Greatness was lowered to his level.

Christian has deserved it for a LONG time, sucks he got it this way.


----------



## Rickey

TelkEvolon said:


> Christians win being a big thing is lost on me. VERY watered down, he won because Edge left, not because he rose to greatness. Greatness was lowered to his level.
> 
> Christian has deserved it for a LONG time, sucks he got it this way.


Felt the same way, I like Christian but even during the promos leading up to the match they keep showing Edge leaving and it put more focus on that. 

Would have liked more focus on that fact that it was "Christian's 6 year quest" vs. "Del Rio's Destiny." Kinda felt like Rey's title win, and them constantly bringing up that he did it for Eddie. 

In saying that though I want Christian to have a good title run there's a good amount of guys on Smackdown for him to have good matches with.

vs. Cody Rhodes
vs. Daniel Bryan
vs. Shaemus
vs. Barrett
vs. Regal

even guys like Ted Jr, Tyson Kidd and Justin Gabriel going against him on SD should be fun.


----------



## dj161

Christian vs Del Rio - ****
Orton vs Punk - ***1/2


----------



## D'Angelo

Rickey said:


> Felt the same way, I like Christian but even during the promos leading up to the match they keep showing Edge leaving and it put more focus on that.
> 
> Would have liked more focus on that fact that it was "Christian's 6 year quest" vs. "Del Rio's Destiny." Kinda felt like Rey's title win, and them constantly bringing up that he did it for Eddie.
> 
> In saying that though I want Christian to have a good title run there's a good amount of guys on Smackdown for him to have good matches with.
> 
> vs. Cody Rhodes
> vs. Daniel Bryan
> vs. Shaemus
> vs. Barrett
> vs. Regal
> 
> even guys like Ted Jr, Tyson Kidd and Justin Gabriel going against him on SD should be fun.


Yup, definitely, can't wait to see him go up against Rhodes, Sheamus or Bryan whether it be on SD or on PPV.


----------



## seabs

*Randy Orton vs CM Punk - Last Man Standing - Extreme Rules 2011*
_Thought this was really good and enjoyed it a lot. Liked how they wrestled more of a standard match with some extra hardcore spots thrown in rather than just going big spot followed by a slow 10 count. Got rid of the main downfall of LMS matches for me too. Loved the action outside the ring. Thought there was loads of cool stuff - Orton whipping Punk between the ring and guard rail and then the powerslam was a sweet spot. Chair around the neck and then throw your opponent into the ring post is always a spot I like, shame they made nothing of it though. Punk going for the GTS on the table was a bit baffling but the RKO spot was good. Cane shots were great, especially the ones right at the end. Punk removing the turnbuckle pad before the match was a neat touch too. Glad there was no Nexus run in too. Super RKO was a good finish too. If Booker says "Payback is a mother" I'm gonna totally lose my rag. He shouldn't be anywhere near a commentary table on PPV. Did enjoy it when Orton was tearing the table apart and starting mentioning his iPad and then you could see him holding onto his iPad so it didn't get broke._

****3/4*

*Didn't think a whole lot of Christian/Del Rio. As a match I thought it was kinda uneventful and average and Christian winning the belt meant nothing. He wouldn't have been in the position if Edge didn't retire so it's not like they've rewarded all his hard work with a title run. It'll be a title reign more than a title run too. My money's on him dropping it to Henry at the next PPV and then Orton beating Henry. He didn't even win it on his own either. They still had to do an Edge interference to lead to him winning the belt. Would have preferred for him to lose and win it two years down the line with the story of him being there so long and it always eluding him rather than he won it because his best buddy retired and had to vacate the title.

Man I feel bad for all these people who seem to think he's gonna have a title run facing guys like Sheamus, Rhodes & Danielson. Best bet is for him to win the IC Title and have a long reign with that. I'd be really suprised if he got over 10 weeks with the belt.*


----------



## starship.paint

Alan4L said:


> INFINITY 208
> 
> MOCHI & FUJII VS. MARAHA ISAPPA - 5 STAAAAAAARS!
> 
> OH MY GOD
> 
> this topped Shingo/Hulk as my fave Dragon Gate match ever.
> 
> If it had a tad more crowd heat it MIGHT be my favourite wrestling match ever. But as far as what these 4 men did, I am absolutely stunned. The Zetsurins deliver the single greatest ass whooping I've ever seen to Ryo & Genki and I'm sitting there thinking "Holy fuck, what the hell is happening here. This is something SPECIAL". The facial expressions are Kobashi and Nagata esque, the twists and turns are heart stopping, the strikes are fucking VICIOUS and on point..... this was just magic.
> 
> If something tops this for me this year, I'll be shocked.
> 
> 2011 DG is here and it ain't playin' around.



Holy crap that Saito and Horiguchi really got beaten up here. Still can't believe they managed to win through that. I loved the Apron Chokeslam -> Apron Tombstone -> Floor Piledriver to Horiguchi followed by Mochizuki and Fujii stepping into the ring like monsters, wow.

Mochizuki and Fujii vs Saito and Horiguchi ****1/4

Alan4L have you seen Takagi and YAMATO vs Mochizuki and Fujii? There were two matches actually, one ****1/4 and the other ****1/2 for me...


----------



## Rickey

Seabs said:


> *Randy Orton vs CM Punk - Last Man Standing - Extreme Rules 2011*
> _Thought this was really good and enjoyed it a lot. Liked how they wrestled more of a standard match with some extra hardcore spots thrown in rather than just going big spot followed by a slow 10 count. Got rid of the main downfall of LMS matches for me too. Loved the action outside the ring. Thought there was loads of cool stuff - Orton whipping Punk between the ring and guard rail and then the powerslam was a sweet spot. Chair around the neck and then throw your opponent into the ring post is always a spot I like, shame they made nothing of it though. Punk going for the GTS on the table was a bit baffling but the RKO spot was good. Cane shots were great, especially the ones right at the end. Punk removing the turnbuckle pad before the match was a neat touch too. Glad there was no Nexus run in too. Super RKO was a good finish too. If Booker says "Payback is a mother" I'm gonna totally lose my rag. He shouldn't be anywhere near a commentary table on PPV. Did enjoy it when Orton was tearing the table apart and starting mentioning his iPad and then you could see him holding onto his iPad so it didn't get broke._
> 
> ****3/4*
> 
> *Didn't think a whole lot of Christian/Del Rio. As a match I thought it was kinda uneventful and average and Christian winning the belt meant nothing. He wouldn't have been in the position if Edge didn't retire so it's not like they've rewarded all his hard work with a title run. It'll be a title reign more than a title run too. My money's on him dropping it to Henry at the next PPV and then Orton beating Henry. He didn't even win it on his own either. They still had to do an Edge interference to lead to him winning the belt. Would have preferred for him to lose and win it two years down the line with the story of him being there so long and it always eluding him rather than he won it because his best buddy retired and had to vacate the title.
> 
> Man I feel bad for all these people who seem to think he's gonna have a title run facing guys like Sheamus, Rhodes & Danielson. Best bet is for him to win the IC Title and have a long reign with that. I'd be really suprised if he got over 10 weeks with the belt.*


I kept Orton and Henry out of my post because...I just don't wanna see that. That's probably the direction they'll go in but it's not really interesting. The problem is Orton is one of their most over faces so eventually he will be going for the title again, and I guess that's fine but I simply do not wanna see Henry getting another title shot. It seems like every few years they randomly push him and have him going for the main title. I didn't mind his ECW title run as a monster heel but still let Christian have a good reign or run. I'd rather Barrett challenge Christian than Henry.

The SD belt doesn't usually main event, especially not that Cena has the title so that's why I said Vs. Shaemus and Vs. Rhodes, etc would be good for Christian. Not to mention them actually being good matches. 

As for the IC Title I actually want Rhodes to get that in the near future and feud with Daniel Bryan for it. Does Barrett actually defend that title? It's like they just gave it to him to keep him relevant.


----------



## Tarfu

Seabs said:


> *Didn't think a whole lot of Christian/Del Rio. As a match I thought it was kinda uneventful and average and Christian winning the belt meant nothing. He wouldn't have been in the position if Edge didn't retire so it's not like they've rewarded all his hard work with a title run. It'll be a title reign more than a title run too. My money's on him dropping it to Henry at the next PPV and then Orton beating Henry. He didn't even win it on his own either. They still had to do an Edge interference to lead to him winning the belt. Would have preferred for him to lose and win it two years down the line with the story of him being there so long and it always eluding him rather than he won it because his best buddy retired and had to vacate the title.
> *


*

You can't know if Del Rio was ever even supposed to win in the first place, and if Christian's reign was actually in the making for near future (heel-turn, feud with his buddy). Edge retired and plans were shortened with the same outcome. Maybe, who knows?

Anyways, really dug the Ladder match. These two are incapable of putting on anything but something good together. An exciting bout followed by an emotional moment years in the making (regardless of the circumstances).

LMS was a miss in my books, and failed to reach its potential. Punk felt off throughout and the flow just wasn't there, nor was the story. I was more entertained by the divas match, so help me God.*


----------



## seabs

*Possibly but I highly doubt it. Maybe he would have turned heel and beat Edge perhaps. If they had Del Rio win and then Christian won it the next month it would have meant more I think but the circumstances tainted what should have been a more memorable moment for me. Wouldn't have been as bad if Christian was originally supposed to be in the match.*


----------



## antoniomare007

I don't care about the circumstances. How many title reigns have begun because of outside/backstage stuff happening?? Punk had a great match against Morrison for the ECW title and he won it thanks to JoMo being suspended, that didn't make the match any less good. And Christian was already having a big push before Edge's retirement, he was going to be a big part of SD! anyways.

The match was good, but as a huge CC fan, it felt special. I can see why someone wouldn't consider it a MOTYC or a "****" match or whatever, but the match had me screaming like a 12 year old and marking out hard and that's all I want from a wrestling match.


----------



## Paroxysm

Christian already had the match won before Brodus interfered himself. And Edge didn't physically get involved, I don't think it hurt Christian's win at all.


----------



## lewieG

WWE Extreme Rules

ADR vs Christian: ****1/4
Orton vs Punk: ***1/2
Cena vs Miz vs Morrison: ***1/2


----------



## Alan4L

CM Skittle said:


> How many "5 star" matches do you have Alan4L? It must be at least like 10,000, lol.



not as many as you'd think. Probably about 9 or 10 since 2000.


----------



## Alan4L

starship.paint said:


> Alan4L have you seen Takagi and YAMATO vs Mochizuki and Fujii? There were two matches actually, one ****1/4 and the other ****1/2 for me...


yeah the draw from 2009 and the Tag League match from last summer. Both were awesome. Had the tag league one in my top 5 last year.


----------



## Groovemachine

WWE Extreme Rules
Christian vs Alberto Del Rio - ****

Made the mistake of seeing spoilers before watching the match, and knowing who won naturally took away some of the nail-biting tension that usually accompanies a ladder match of this magnitude. Still, there was some fantastic stuff in here, and as others have said, the story of Christian's rise to a title victory was brilliantly told within the context of the match. With a match so centred around emotion, I was perfectly fine with Edge's interference; for me it was the story coming full circle - Edge retires title, encourages best friend to win it, goes on to help said best friend win said title. No complaints from me there.


----------



## CM Skittle

Alan4L said:


> not as many as you'd think. Probably about 9 or 10 since 2000.


Umm.. what? This can't be right, I've seen you give 5 stars to three matches on the SAME show.


----------



## Alan4L

CM Skittle said:


> Umm.. what? This can't be right, I've seen you give 5 stars to three matches on the SAME show.


what show? sounds like a doozy

these are my recent 5 stars:

2011:
Maraha Isappa tag

2010:
Taker vs. HBK
Guerrilla Warfare
Shingo vs. Hulk

2009:
Hayato vs. Kanemoto

2008:
DG 6 Man in ROH
Kensuke Office vs. Burning, survival match

2007:
NTV Cup final
DG 6 Man in ROH
Ladder War

2006:
DG 6 Man in ROH
Cage Of Death
Nigel vs. Danielson Unified

2005:
Joe vs. Kobashi

2004:
HHH vs. HBK vs. Benoit

2003:
Do Fixer vs. Shin M2K vs. ItaConn vs. Crazy Max
Kobashi vs. Misawa

2002:
none

2001:
none

2000:
none

so 16. Bit more than I thought but I don't think I can be called crazy for any of those.


----------



## Rickey

^probably referring to the 16 caret tournament and the three ****3/4 ratings.


----------



## CM Skittle

No I think it was a DGUSA show, or maybe a Dragon Gate show. But whatever, I'm not like insulting you for it or think it's a bad thing, I just think it's funny how high most of your star ratings are.


----------



## Alan4L

CM Skittle said:


> No I think it was a DGUSA show, or maybe a Dragon Gate show. But whatever, I'm not like insulting you for it or think it's a bad thing, I just think it's funny how high most of your star ratings are.


hmmm, never given a DGUSA match ***** and I've only ever given it to two DG Japan matches.


----------



## SuperDuperDragon

Just let a homey enjoy his wrestling...gosh!


----------



## topper1

Alan4L said:


> I don't think I can be called crazy for any of those.


Guerrilla Warfare :flip.


----------



## Alan4L

topper1 said:


> Guerrilla Warfare :flip.


I know you're just playin' but I can justify that like I can justify all my picks - and that's for the simple reason that you can find other people who share my opinion. It's not like I've selected a match universally regarded as average, I've selected a match that granted some people may not dig, but enough others think was an absolute classic that it's impossible to call it a crazy opinion.


----------



## CM Skittle

Which guerrilla warfare match are you talking about?


----------



## seabs

*He listed it under 2010 so the 3 way tag Warfare I'm presuming. Match was brilliant btw. Alan's the only guy I've seen give it max stars though. 

Personally I love Alan's positivity towards modern wrestling. Sure it's over positivity from time to time but great for him if he enjoys his wrestling so much. Once you realise you probably wont rate matches he pimps out quite as highly as him there's no problem with being dissapointed because you didn't like it anywhere near as much as he did.*


----------



## kwjr86

Keep doing your thing Alan4L, love the positivity. That Guerilla Warfare match was quite incredible, ****1/2 to ****3/4 from me


----------



## CM Skittle

Oh my god I remember that match, I gave it a dud, lol. That's seriously one of my least favorite matches ever. But like I said I'm not trying to make fun of Alan4L or anything, I'd rather see people overrated stuff than the smarks that think everything sucks.


----------



## Nervosa

Soya & Sanada vs. Sekimoto & Okabayashi
3/21/11
****1/2

Excellent Bout! Second best match of the year, right behind Kosu/Nakajima.

Seki and Soya bring a lot of hate, and clearly establish themselves as 'primaries' in the match. I LOVE the ref getting each man's partner to help in the pull apart. Never saw it before, and added a whole new level. This may be controversial, but I think Sanada was the star of the match. Clearly the smallest wrestler, and stylistically the outcast, he has to fight for every inch, and comes off extremely impressive in the early going, especially in his exchanges with Oka. However, the size disadvantage is too much, and he eventually gets the long workoever. I like how he fights through it to get the tag to Soya, but as soon as Soya tags him back in, he is too week to keep up the attack, and the BJW duo regains control. When he finally escapes THIS workover, its so serious that Soya has to fight both opponents single handedly for a long while. Eventually, he is overwhelmed, and the BJW team is in firm control. But it is just then that Sanada overcomes the repeated guarding attempts to execute a lot of his moveset and give Soya a chance to recover against Daisuke. But the back workover proves to be too much, as Okabayashi catches Sanada's dive and drives him into the post. This leaves the two hated enemies in the ring for the brutal finish, which culminates the feud with an awesome ending. 

I wish Sanada had sold his back during the workover, and he kinda got in his partner's way for a charge, but those are the only two criticisms for what it otherwise an amazing match, and probably Sekimoto's best performance to date. I agree with Seabs that, not unlike Eddie Edwards, Sekimoto's strength is in tags, where many of his weaknesses are hidden. (his incredible match against Takahashi is the big exception.) 

Top 3 becomes:

1. Suzuki vs. Nakajima
2. this
3. Steen vs. Generico


----------



## topper1

CM Skittle said:


> Oh my god I remember that match, I gave it a dud, lol. That's seriously one of my least favorite matches ever. But like I said I'm not trying to make fun of Alan4L or anything, I'd rather see people overrated stuff than the smarks that think everything sucks.


Its about on par with some of the CZW spotfest from the the 1st half of the decade and even in those the spots didn't look so contrived. I'm ok with a good spot fest as some might notice I didn't point out the other 10 spot fest on Alan's list but GW was pure trash and if its being listed as one of the best matches ever by even one person thats a joke.


----------



## jawbreaker

Starting to get back into things again. Rewatched all my top MOTYCs, plus a bit more puro (still need to check out the Sekimoto tags though).

First, a review of one match I liked a whole lot:

*Claudio Castagnoli vs. El Generico, PWG Kurt RussellReunion II*

I love El Generico. He's an incredibly fun comedy character, his twitter is the best, and he's one of the best underdog babyfaces in the world. That said, I haven't enjoyed a lot of the stuff he's done as a singles wrestler so far this year. I feel like I've seen it all before, and it's hard to get into his comebacks, because you know they're coming the whole time.

This match wasn't all that different, but it was just different enough for me to enjoy it. Claudio is incredible. The Neutralizer, particularly on someone like Generico, looks legit painful, and he's the perfect champ for PWG. The knee workover was entirely believable, and it was made better by Generico actually selling the whole time. Additionally, the crowd was pretty dead after a really long show, and they brought them back into it. It was very similar to the formula Generico vs. big guy match, but just different enough to be somewhat fresh.

****1/4

Updated MOTY (4*+) list:

1. Daisuke Sekimoto vs. Ikuto Hidaka, ZERO1 1/1, ****1/4
2. Claudio Castagnoli vs. El Generico, PWG Kurt RussellReunion II, ****1/4
3. Roderick Strong vs. Jay Briscoe, ROH Only the Strong Survive, ****

EDIT: Anyone want to give me a list of things to watch from promotions other than ROH, PWG, CHIKARA, and EVOLVE?


----------



## Corey

jawbreaker said:


> EDIT: Anyone want to give me a list of things to watch from promotions other than ROH, PWG, CHIKARA, and EVOLVE?


*WWE*
Edge vs. Dolph Ziggler (Royal Rumble) ***3/4
Smackdown Elimination Chamber ****
CM Punk vs. Randy Orton (Mania 27) ***3/4
Undertaker vs. Triple H (Mania 27) ****1/2
Christian vs. Alberto Del Rio Ladder Match (Extreme Rules) ***3/4

*TNA (I'm sure many don't care)*
MCMG vs. Beer Money (Genesis) ***3/4
Steel Cage: Kurt Angle vs. Jeff Jarrett (Lockdown) ***3/4

*Other*
Chris Hero vs. Daisuke Sekimoto (wXw Kreuzzug ZXI) ****
Adam Cole & Kyle O'Reilly vs. LDRS of the New School (wXw Kreuzzug ZXI) ****1/4
BxB Hulk vs. Akira Tozawa (DGUSA United We Stand) ****
PAC vs. Akira Tozawa (DGUSA Mercury Rising 2011) ***3/4
Austin Aries vs. YAMATO (DGUSA Mercury Rising 2011) ***3/4
Ronin vs. Blood Warriors (DGUSA Mercury Rising 2011) ***3/4


----------



## sXsCanadianFansXs

@Nervosa: Well... at least we agree on one match.




jawbreaker said:


> Starting to get back into things again. Rewatched all my top MOTYCs, plus a bit more puro (still need to check out the Sekimoto tags though).
> 
> First, a review of one match I liked a whole lot:
> 
> *Claudio Castagnoli vs. El Generico, PWG Kurt RussellReunion II*
> 
> I love El Generico. He's an incredibly fun comedy character, his twitter is the best, and he's one of the best underdog babyfaces in the world. That said, I haven't enjoyed a lot of the stuff he's done as a singles wrestler so far this year. I feel like I've seen it all before, and it's hard to get into his comebacks, because you know they're coming the whole time.
> 
> This match wasn't all that different, but it was just different enough for me to enjoy it. Claudio is incredible. The Neutralizer, particularly on someone like Generico, looks legit painful, and he's the perfect champ for PWG. The knee workover was entirely believable, and it was made better by Generico actually selling the whole time. Additionally, the crowd was pretty dead after a really long show, and they brought them back into it. It was very similar to the formula Generico vs. big guy match, but just different enough to be somewhat fresh.
> 
> ****1/4
> 
> Updated MOTY (4*+) list:
> 
> 1. Daisuke Sekimoto vs. Ikuto Hidaka, ZERO1 1/1, ****1/4
> 2. Claudio Castagnoli vs. El Generico, PWG Kurt RussellReunion II, ****1/4
> 3. Roderick Strong vs. Jay Briscoe, ROH Only the Strong Survive, ****
> 
> EDIT: Anyone want to give me a list of things to watch from promotions other than ROH, PWG, CHIKARA, and EVOLVE?


Japan:
-IWGP Heavyweight Championship: Satoshi Kojima © vs. Hiroshi Tanahashi (NJPW “Wrestle Kingdom V in Tokyo Dome”, January 4th, ****)
-IWGP Jr. Heavyweight Tag Team Championships: Kota Ibushi & Kenny Omega © vs. Prince Devitt & Ryusuke Taguchi (NJPW CMLL FantasticaMania 2011 Night Two, January 23rd, ****1/5)
-GHC Jr. Heavyweight Championship: Kotaro Suzuki © vs. Eddie Edwards (NOAH “The First Navigation”, January 29th, ****2/5)
-AJPW World Jr. Heavyweight Championship: Kaz Hayashi © vs. Minoru (AJPW, February 1st, ****)
-All Asia Tag Team Championships: Seiya Sanada & Manabu Soya (c) vs. Daisuke Sekimoto & Yuji Okabayashi (AJPW, February 6th, ****1/5)
-All Asia Tag Team Championships: Seiya Sanada & Manabu Soya (c) vs. Daisuke Sekimoto & Yuji Okabayashi (AJPW, February 11th, ****) 
-All Asia Tag Team Championships: Seiya Sanada & Manabu Soya (c) vs. Daisuke Sekimoto & Yuji Okabayashi (AJPW, March 21st, ****1/2)

Matches that didn't quite hit **** for me:
-IWGP Junior Heavyweight Championship: Prince Devitt © vs. Kota Ibushi (NJPW “Wrestle Kingdom V in Tokyo Dome”, January 4th, ***3/4)
-Go Shiozaki vs. Shinsuke Nakamura (NJPW “Wrestle Kingdom V in Tokyo Dome”, January 4th, ***1/2)
-Daisuke Sekimoto vs. Ikuto Hidaka (Zero1: January 11th, ***3/4)
-Yoshihiro Takayama vs. KENTA (NOAH “The First Navigation 2011”, January 15th, ***3/4)
-Daisuke Sekimoto vs. Yuji Okabayashi (BJW, February 1st, ***3/4)
-GHC Heavyweight Championship: Takashi Sugiura vs. Giant Bernard (NOAH: Great Voyage 2011, March 5th, ***3/4)
-GHC Jr. Heavyweight Championship: Kotaro Suzuki vs. Katsuhiko Nakajima (NOAH: Great Voyage 2011, March 5th, ***3/4)
-Yuji Nagata vs. Masato Tanaka (Zero-1, March 6th, ***1/2)


----------



## seabs

*Too awesome for stars*
_Colt Cabana vs Marty Scurll - wXw 16 Carat Gold Tournament Day 2_

****3/4*
_Satoshi Kojima vs Hiroshi Tanahashi - NJPW Wrestle Kingdom V
Hiroshi Tanahashi, Prince Devitt & Mistico vs Shinsuke Nakamura, Testuya Naito & Averno - NJPW 22.01.2011
Golden Lovers vs Apollo 55 - NJPW 23.01.2011
Shinjiro Otani vs Yoshihiro Takayama - ZERO-1 06.03.2011
Minoru vs Shuji Kondo vs Kaz Hayashi - AJPW 06.02.2011
Takashi Sugiura vs Trevor Murdoch - NOAH 21.03.2011
Kenny King vs Kyle O'Reilly - ROH Champions vs All Stars
Roderick Strong vs El Generico - ROH SoCal Showdown II
Briscoes vs All Night Express - ROH Honor Takes Center Stage Chapter 2
Colt Cabana vs Zack Sabre Jr. - wXw 16 Carat Gold Tournament Day 1
El Generico vs Kotaro Suzuki - wXw 16 Carat Gold Tournament Day 1
Sami Callihan vs Big Van Walter - wXw 16 Carat Gold Tournament Day 3
Jon Moxley vs Jimmy Jacobs - Dog Collar Match - IPW Showtown In Naptown
American Wolves vs Irish Airbourne - IPW Showtown In Naptown
Munenori Sawa vs Hikaru Sato - wXw Ambition 2
Davey Richards & Briscoes vs Roderick Strong & Kings Of Wrestling - ROH on HDNet 04.04.2011_

******
_Naruki Doi & Ricochet vs Chuck Taylor & Johnny Gargano - DGUSA United: NYC
CIMA & Dragon Kid vs Masato Yoshino & PAC - DGUSA United: NYC
El Generico vs Eddie Kingston - CHIKARA Chaos In The Sea Of Lost Souls
Roderick Strong vs Jay Briscoe - ROH Only The Strong Will Survive
Takashi Sugiura vs Giant Bernard - NOAH 05.03.2011
Yuji Nagata vs Masato Tanaka - ZERO-1 06.03.2011
American Wolves vs Charlie Haas & Shelton Benjamin - ROH Honor Takes Center Stage Chapter 2
Go Shiozaki vs Kotaro Suzuki - wXw 16 Carat Gold Tournament Day 2
Daisuke Sekimoto vs El Generico - wXw 16 Carat Gold Tournament Day 3
Zack Sabre Jr. vs Jon Ryan - wXw Ambition 2_

*****1/4*
_Masato Yoshino & PAC vs Naruki Doi & Ricochet - DGUSA United: Philly
Kotaro Suzuki vs Eddie Edwards - NOAH 29.01.2011
Smackdown Elimination Chamber - Elimination Chamber 2011
Eddie Edwards vs Christopher Daniels - 2/3 Falls - ROH 9th Anniversary Show
Daisuke Sekimoto & Yuji Okabayashi vs Seiya Sanada & Manabu Soya - AJPW 06.02.2011
Daisuke Sekimoto, Yuji Okabayashi & Ryuichi Kawakami vs Yoshihito Sasaki, Shinya Ishikawa & Masashi Otani - BJW 12.02.2011
Claudio Castagnoli vs El Generico - PWG Kurt RussellReunion II
Oberhausen Terror Corps vs Munenori Sawa & Hikaru Sato - wXw Back 2 The Roots X
Daisuke Sekimoto vs Big Van Walter - wXw Back 2 The Roots X
LDRS Of The New School vs Adam Cole & Kyle O'Reilly - wXw Kreuzzug ZXI
Daisuke Sekimoto vs Chris Hero - wXw Kreuzzug ZXI_

*****1/2*
_CIMA & Dragon Kid vs Chuck Taylor & Johnny Gargano - DGUSA United: Philly
Akira Tozawa vs BxB Hulk - DGUSA United We Stand
Daisuke Sekimoto & Yuji Okabayashi vs Seiya Sanada & Manabu Soya - AJPW 21.03.2011
Zack Sabre Jr. vs Davey Richards - wXw 16 Carat Gold Tournament Day 2
LDRS Of The New School vs Adam Cole & Kyle O'Reilly - wXw 16 Carat Gold Tournament Day 3_


----------



## Bubz

I honestly thought the first tag in the Sekimoto/Okabayashi vs Soya/Sanada series was way better than the third one everyone is raving about. To me it flowed better and the finishing stretch was better, not to mention that they all looked more bothered about the whole thing. I dunno, maybe i should re-watch it.

I did some re-watching of my top 10 and the list stays pretty much the same. Claudio/Generico is THE BOMB!


----------



## jawbreaker

Watched the first Soya/Sanada vs. Sekimoto/Okabayashi tag and fucking loved it. Will provide reviews once I've finished the trilogy.


----------



## antoniomare007

Well, we couldn't see 10 minutes of the first match (they did a great editing job), and I also thought there was a little overkill in the last minutes wich is almost inevitable in a 30 minutes puro match this days.

I liked the third one better because, to me atleast, it had the best of the previous 2 encounters and limited the flaws they had already shown in the 6/2 and 11/2 matches.


----------



## El Conquistador

I haven't watched much wrestling this year but from what I have seen, Christian has been a prime-time performer in his matches. Orton/Christian and ADR/Christian were both great. I can't speak about how it relates to other WWE material or Indy material but I enjoyed each match respectively, wondered what was coming next in the sequences. Little things like that are the reason I stopped watching wrestling but showings like these encourage me.


----------



## Nervosa

bubz123 said:


> I honestly thought the first tag in the Sekimoto/Okabayashi vs Soya/Sanada series was way better than the third one everyone is raving about. To me it flowed better and the finishing stretch was better, not to mention that they all looked more bothered about the whole thing. I dunno, maybe i should re-watch it.
> 
> I did some re-watching of my top 10 and the list stays pretty much the same. Claudio/Generico is THE BOMB!


I actually completely agree. Only problem is that 10 minutes were cut out. If I could see those 10 minutes, and if they didn't suck, it would probably be the far and away MOTY for me.


----------



## jawbreaker

antoniomare007 said:


> Well, we couldn't see 10 minutes of the first match (they did a great editing job), and I also thought there was a little overkill in the last minutes wich is almost inevitable in a 30 minutes puro match this days.
> 
> I liked the third one better because, to me atleast, it had the best of the previous 2 encounters and limited the flaws they had already shown in the 6/2 and 11/2 matches.


I thought it was a little short.


----------



## FightclubXL-2nd Dv

WWE
Smackdown Elimination Chamber (Elimination Chamber 2011)-***3/4
Randy Orton vs. Christian (Smackdown on Syfy)-***3/4
Undertaker vs. Triple H (Wrestlemania XXVII)-*****

Total Nonstop Action Wrestling
Samoa Joe vs. D'Angelo Dinero (Lockdown 2011)-***3/4
AJ Styles vs. Matt Hardy (Victory Road 2011)-****
Kurt Angle vs. Jeff Jarrett (Lockdown 2011)-****

Ring of Honor
Roderick Strong vs. Jay Briscoe (Only the Strong Survive)-***3/4
Davey Richards vs. TJ Perkins (SoCal Showdown II)-****

Dragon Gate USA
Ronin vs. Blood Warriors (Mercury Rising 2011)-****
BxB Hulk vs. Yamato (United: NYC)-****1/4
Ausin Aries vs. Akira Towaza (United: Philly)-****1/4
Masato Yoshino & PAC vs. Naruki Doi & Ricochet (United: Philly)-*****


----------



## geraldinhio

_lol at five stars for Taker/HHH .

Anyway just watched Chris Hero vs Kevin Steen for PWG Kurt Russellmania 2.This is actually one of my favourite Steen matches ever .Loved the transition from it being a scientific wrestling match to a crazy crowd brawl to just a blistering hard hitting war.Great stuff ****1/4_


----------



## topper1

I agree with both of your comments.

Steen vs Hero might be my MOTY so far and easily my favorite match from that show.


----------



## ddog121

Current MOTY List:

****3/4
Triple H v. Undertaker
****1/2
Roderick Strong v. Davey Richards 
Wrestling's Greatest Tag Team v. American Wolves
YAMATO v. Austin Aries
Davey Richards/Briscoes v. Roderick Strong/Kings of Wrestling
1-2-3 Kid v. El Generico 
****1/4
King's of Wrestling v. Wrestling's Greatest Tag Team (Honor Takes Center Stage)
Briscoes v. All Night Express (Honor Takes Center Stage)
PAC v. Akira Tozawa
Blood Warriors v. Ronin
Adam Pearce v. Colt Cabana 
PAC v. Ricochet 
Colony v. FIST 
****
Eddie Edwards v. Christopher Daniels (Honor Takes Center Stage)
Miz v. Daniel Bryan
Osaka Pro v. FIST
Team Michinoku Pro v. Minami Toyoda, Mike Quackenbush, and Jigsaw
Colony v. Osirian Portel

I have alot of catching up to do.


----------



## Bubz

Steen vs Hero is awesome. Just slightly behind Generico/Claudio from that show. Davey/Low Ki was dissapointing though.


----------



## seabs

*Young Bucks vs American Wolves - PWG DDT4 2011*
_****1/4_

*Kings Of Wrestling vs Kevin Steen & Akira Tozawa - PWG DDT4 2011*
_****1/4+_

*Young Bucks vs Kevin Steen & Akira Tozawa - PWG DDT4 2011*
_***3/4_


----------



## Alan4L

Seabs said:


> *Young Bucks vs American Wolves - PWG DDT4 2011*
> _****1/4_
> 
> *Kings Of Wrestling vs Kevin Steen & Akira Tozawa - PWG DDT4 2011*
> _****1/4+_
> 
> *Young Bucks vs Kevin Steen & Akira Tozawa - PWG DDT4 2011*
> _***3/4_


I actually had the final as my MOTN and maybe MOTY. Incredible drama and emotion. Tozawa losing his mind at the end was one of my favourite moments ever in wrestling.


----------



## Sephiroth

geraldinhio said:


> _lol at five stars for Taker/HHH .
> 
> _


lol at someone having their own opinion.

Get off your high horse troll.


----------



## geraldinhio

Sephiroth said:


> lol at someone having their own opinion.
> 
> Get off your high horse troll.


_fpalm I'm just saying I don't agree with his opinion at all ,as many people don't agree with me .If he thinks that match was ***** stars ,more power to him .I was just stating my opinion on the match .


Anyway *Chris Hero vs Davey Richards -ROH ,Only The Strong Survive *
Some great technical wrestling at mat work at the start .Some great exchanges of kicks and strikes and an all round really good match .Untill the last few minutes ,Chris released everything in his arsneal .Numerous sick elbow strikes ,Cyclone Kill and vicious kicks to the head to only have Davey non sell them at all .He was up running around throwing kicks and hit the ssp just minutes after.He did a good job of selling the concussion angle and Hero's offence through the match ,that just ruined it a bit for me.Still good ***3/4 _


----------



## topper1

Sephiroth said:


> lol at someone having their own opinion.
> 
> Get off your high horse troll.


Power move rest for a min or two over and over and over again for about 30 mins straight. ***** for that match is a joke rating and anyone that gives it 5 stars needs to go watch some 90's AJPW and then perhaps they will understand why we laugh.


----------



## antoniomare007

lol @ arguing about star ratings


----------



## -Mystery-

topper1 said:


> Power move rest for a min or two over and over and over again for about 30 mins straight. ***** for that match is a joke rating and anyone that gives it 5 stars needs to go watch some 90's AJPW and then perhaps they will understand why we laugh.


Posts like these are why wrestling forums suck.


----------



## SHIRLEY

Are people still giving Taker-HHH stupid ratings? I thought the giddiness would have worn off by now.


----------



## -Mystery-

Shirley Crabtree III said:


> Are people still giving Taker-HHH stupid ratings? I thought the giddiness would have worn off by now.


Are people still making stupid elitist comments? I thought reality would have set in.


----------



## topper1

-Mystery- said:


> Posts like these are why wrestling forums suck.


Could always stay in the WWE part of the forum :flip


----------



## Generation-Now

topper1 said:


> Power move rest for a min or two over and over and over again for about 30 mins straight. ***** for that match is a joke rating and anyone that gives it 5 stars needs to go watch some 90's AJPW and then perhaps they will understand why we laugh.


LMAO

"I watch 90's AJPW so I know when it's a FACT that a match is 5 stars"


----------



## Nervosa

-Mystery- said:


> Posts like these are why wrestling forums suck.


What? Accurate analysis of an overrated match?

Yeah.........legitimate discussion sucks!



Shirley Crabtree III said:


> Are people still giving Taker-HHH stupid ratings? I thought the giddiness would have worn off by now.


Come on man. Triple H did a tombstone..........Golly! You can throw out the rest of the match. (In fact, if you give that tripe 5 stars, I'm pretty sure you did.)

MOOVS + lying around = Great match!


----------



## Nervosa

Generation-Now said:


> LMAO
> 
> "I watch 90's AJPW so I know when it's a FACT that a match is 5 stars"


I think its moreso "I watched 90s AJPW, so I know when its a fact what is NOT five stars."


----------



## -Mystery-

Nervosa said:


> What? Accurate analysis of an overrated match?
> 
> Yeah.........legitimate discussion sucks!
> 
> 
> 
> Come on man. Triple H did a tombstone..........Golly! You can throw out the rest of the match. (In fact, if you give that tripe 5 stars, I'm pretty sure you did.)
> 
> MOOVS + lying around = Great match!


There's a difference between having a discussion and basically telling people their opinions are laughable and they don't know good wrestling.


----------



## jawbreaker

topper1 said:


> Could always stay in the WWE part of the forum :flip


There's a WWE part of the forum?


----------



## Caponex75

You people give indy/Puro fans a bad reputation because it shows you have no fucking clue what SELLING is. Taker/HHH had more storytelling, psychology, and just overall emotion to it then any other match I've seen this year. HHH's arm selling was a huge thing in the match yet it was still small in comparison to everything else despite being one of the KEY reasons why Taker won. Probably the best detailed matches out there to be honest.


----------



## Rickey

They're all just personal opinions anyway, they don't really mater...just like we don't!  Your opinion(s) of the match should mean something to you and you only. No need to convince other people that the much was good/horrible.


----------



## Paroxysm

Caponex75 said:


> Taker/HHH had more storytelling, psychology, and just overall emotion to it then any other match I've seen this year. HHH's arm selling was a huge thing in the match yet it was still small in comparison to everything else despite being one of the KEY reasons why Taker won. Probably the best detailed matches out there to be honest.


agreed I loved the match. Don't understand people that didn't enjoy it, wrestling can be great in many forms. There was a section in the middle of the match that was kind of finisher into finisher that I wasn't big on but other than that it was fantastic. Those 5 minutes of false finishes for the sake of it are all the stopped it from 5 stars for me. But the story was excellent. I watch a ton of indy wrestling but the art of selling & storytelling often get lost and thats probably why I still prefer WWE amongst all other promotions when they put on a high caliber match.


----------



## topper1

For the record I did enjoy the match. Its just clearly not a 5 star match


----------



## Generation-Now

Nervosa said:


> I think its moreso "I watched 90s AJPW, so I know when its a fact what is NOT five stars."


Well, at least you have a firm grasp on the point.


----------



## Bubz

Come on man, people like different things you know. I enjoyed the match while it was on and probably wouldn't rate it above ***1/2, but i can actualy see why people loved it so much. People like that type of thing, realise this and move on


----------



## jawbreaker

I thoroughly enjoyed the match and thought it was great spectacle that told a story very well. However it had some very obvious flaws, so I wouldn't rate it *****.


----------



## SHIRLEY

Caponex75 said:


> You people give indy/Puro fans a bad reputation because it shows you have no fucking clue what SELLING is. Taker/HHH had more storytelling, psychology, and just overall emotion to it then any other match *I've seen* this year. HHH's arm selling was a huge thing in the match yet it was still small in comparison to everything else despite being one of the KEY reasons why Taker won. Probably the best detailed matches out there to be honest.


This is the key phrase, I think, when it comes to all of these ratings - with all due respect. People are arguing _against_ 5* ratings because *they've* seen better stuff.

I just watched SHIMMER 35 and it had half a dozen matches that were equal to or better than Taker-HHH. Most people will never see that.

Davey-Ki from PWG's Wrestlereunion show felt pretty damn close to 5*, with the excitement of a first watch still behind it. If you want to see attention to detail, watch any match where Low Ki is pissed off with the world and in full flow. Most people will never see that too.

WWE just doesn't have the "wow" factor anymore and it's wrong to credit them with all-time classic matches, when their creativity is at an all-time low ebb. It would be like crediting the Simpsons with a 5* episode, when you've never seen the episodes from it's creative peak and you don't watch any other TV shows.

Feel free to carry on doing it, ladies and gents, but don't be surprised when people start calling bullshit.



topper1 said:


> For the record I did enjoy the match. Its just clearly not a 5 star match


This is one point that people seem to miss. It's either 5* or nothing apparently.


----------



## geraldinhio

Wow ,all I said was lol at 5 stars for Taker/HHH and it sparked a massive uproar .


All wrestling is subjective ,if he though it was 5 stars more power to him .I didn't and I vented my opinion ,isn't that the whole part of a forum?


----------



## LariatSavage

I rate a match on a few factors... Storytelling, execution, *Crowd Response,* Commentary, and originality. I'm sure there are other different factors that also come into play depending on the match. The one thing WWE has over every other promotion in the world is the crowd reaction. A <1000 person pop is nice, but 15,000+ person pop is epic. I also don't rate a WWE match the same way I rate an independent match. Sort of like how I don't rate a comedy match the same way I rate a match from a blood feud. Undertaker/HHH will probably be the most watched best match of the year, even though it may not be the overall best match of the year. Some people only give five stars out to perfect matches, but since I don't think such a thing even exists, I'm a little more liberal with my own. 

Since wrestling is nothing without fans, I think the amount of people drawn into the match should factor into the rating. Hogan/Andre WrestleMania III is a ***** match, but not because of the in-ring work, but the amalgamation of everything surrounding that event. It forced 93,000-ish fans into pandemonium live, and only God knows how many fans watching around the Earth into that same excitement. 

*One last question:* Can a 5 star match happen in an empty building?


----------



## TelkEvolon

geraldinhio said:


> Wow ,all I said was lol at 5 stars for Taker/HHH and it sparked a massive uproar .
> 
> 
> All wrestling is subjective ,if he though it was 5 stars more power to him .I didn't and I vented my opinion ,*isn't that the whole part of a forum?*


That's what I thought, but some people think it is just listing of various opinions with interaction limited to "I agree" & "Couldn't of said it better".


----------



## sXsCanadianFansXs

**** for HHH/Taker based off of emotion, crowd response and WM build-up.

..And I'm a "storytelling" kind of guy.

WWE Extreme Rules:
Last Man Standing: Randy Orton vs. CM Punk ***3/4
Falls Count Anywhere: Rey Mysterio vs. Cody Rhodes ***1/2
World Heavyweight Championship: Ladder Match: Alberto Del Rio vs. Christian ****+
WWE Championship: Cage Match: The Miz (c) vs. John Morrison vs. John Cena ***1/4+

One of the best WWE PPV's of the last few years.

RoH Revolution: Canada
El Generico vs. Christopher Daniels ***3/4
Ring of Honor World Championship: Eddie Edwards (c) vs. Chris Hero ****1/4

Just have to watch DDT4.

I just realized that I have ONE match hitting four stars from TNA in five months. And it was a generous four stars. Embarrassing.


----------



## Chismo

topper1 said:


> For the record I did enjoy the match. Its just clearly not a 5 star match


This. Same here. It was one brilliant match, but 5 stars is a bit too much. ****1/2 in my book. I must say they shocked the fuck out of me while I was watching. I expected a solid match. But they went balls to the walls and delivered. Nothing in WWE will come close this year.


----------



## Caponex75

Shirley Crabtree III said:


> This is the key phrase, I think, when it comes to all of these ratings - with all due respect. People are arguing _against_ 5* ratings because *they've* seen better stuff.
> 
> I just watched SHIMMER 35 and it had half a dozen matches that were equal to or better than Taker-HHH. Most people will never see that.
> 
> Davey-Ki from PWG's Wrestlereunion show felt pretty damn close to 5*, with the excitement of a first watch still behind it. If you want to see attention to detail, watch any match where Low Ki is pissed off with the world and in full flow. Most people will never see that too.
> 
> WWE just doesn't have the "wow" factor anymore and it's wrong to credit them with all-time classic matches, when their creativity is at an all-time low ebb. It would be like crediting the Simpsons with a 5* episode, when you've never seen the episodes from it's creative peak and you don't watch any other TV shows.
> 
> Feel free to carry on doing it, ladies and gents, but don't be surprised when people start calling bullshit.


El o El

Because your opinion is a fact right? Get off your clueless "WWE iz gawbage" routine and let people like what they like. I more of a indy supporter/watcher than I am with WWE(In fact I turned off Raw this past Monday BECAUSE it was so freaking boring) but even I have enough common sense to get off my Puro/Indy bandwagon to realize how great of a match Taker/HHH is or even how great the storytelling was. Now if you just don't like the match then you know what? More power to you. While everyone loved the Hero/Danielson match from PWG's Sans Fortee(I really have problems with the show name) 2009 and giving it high ratings, the match bored me to tears. I realize the storytelling in it and it is evident but it wasn't that great in my view and not even the best match of the show(Thought Generico/Shingo was). Doesn't mean I should go telling everyone how wrong they are and their opinion ain't worth a sack of $#it....if you wan to argue facts and why the match wasn't great then feel free too. I'll definitely argue against the guys that think people who watch 90's AJPW wouldn't rate this high. 


Heck, I'll start it off. HHH/Taker was a fantastic match because it played to everything it was about. If I could make it easier for people to understand, I'm going to switch the names up a bit. Misawa, aka HHH, is the most accomplished athlete in the WWE. He has done it all. Won the World title more times then you can count, has had his hands on EVERY title actually except for one maybe, most ruthless wrestler on the roster, and the bonafide(Sp?) ace of the WWE. Kobashi, aka The Undertaker, is one of the most stronger figures in wrestling, former multiple time World champ, and is a overall the most dangerous wrestler as well as intimidating wrestlers out there. He has also the only wrestler to keep such a strong and consistent streak at a event that no one has been able to break.......even a younger Misawa. The thing is, however, Misawa isn't a boy anymore......Misawa is THE Man now. Now since Misawa has accomplished everything, there is one thing that he wants to do to further solidy himself as The Man, The Icon, and The Legend. Break the streak.

Misawa, being the more accomplished athlete and superior wrestler, out strikes Kobashi. Even when Kobashi tries to throw him off his game by tossing him outside or throwing him into the steel barricade(The ring steps), Misawa sticks to the game plan. Misawa even goes as far tossing him through barricade and patiently waiting in the ring telling his opponent "How they are going to wrestle this match". When things break down, Misawa is clearly the aggressor and throws Kobashi hard into the barricade. Misawa now goes for one of his key maneuvers in which he has been killing people for weeks with....the Tiger Driver off the Apron(Pedigree on The Table). Kobashi nearly saves his skin and possibly the rest of the match up by not only avoiding it but tossing him all the way to the floor. Knowing the severity of the situation, Kobashi hits one of his big time, once a blue moon, desperation dives on Misawa to get the match in his favor. Now with Kobashi leading the match and knowing that Misawa isn't playing with the gloves on, he has to react accordingly. Kobashi goes for a Brainbuster on the steel barricade. Misawa reverses and makes him pay via Tiger Suplex(Spinebuster) through the table.

Yada yad yada yada you get the point but moving on to save me some time. Misawa, now after all this big bomb throws between the two, is the only man standing. TIGER DRIVER AGAIN! Doesn't get the Three count. This is Misawa's second Tiger Driver and he NEVER has to go for a second one. Move has a 99% kill rate yet Kobashi has kicked out of two. Misawa thinks about resorting to illegal head drops(HHH looks at the chair) but talks him out of it by the simple thought that he can simply kill this man with his bare hands. 3RD Tiger Driver and STILL doesn't get the three! Misawa can't believe it and start to back up until the idea comes back to him(HHH backs up into the chair). One illegal head drop. Misawa sees Kobashi is still trying to get up. HEAD DROP AGAIN! Kobashi STILL SHOWS LIFE! HEAD DROP ONCE MORE! Kobashi JUST WON'T GIVE IN! "STAY DOWN"! Misawa then gives him 8 in a row! Kobashi, though slowly and nearly like a cripple, is getting back to his feet. Misawa then resorts to a move that is banned from the organization and murders Kobashi with it. At a bit of rare sign of remorse, Misawa sits in the corner to think of what he just did. It really isn't clear if he is sad it had to come to this or he can't believe none of what he is doing isn't working. 

Whatever it was, this all goes away when he turns around to see Kobashi trying to do one of his signature fighting spirit spots but his body can't seem to go through with it. Misawa lectures him. Yelling "Stay Down" and "What is wrong with you". Kobashi goes for his come back signature lariat but it has no juice and Misawa looks him dead in the eye and says "Not today". Kobashi is so out of it that as soon as he stands, he falls on the ropes.....yet still with hands up high telling him it isn't over. Misawa just stares at him, knowing that this man, although great, has to be told that it is over. He gestures it by slitting his throat and Kobashi tries to swing but misses. Misawa picks him up for the Burning Hammer and actually HITS him with it. A move that Kobashi has always reversed outside of someone who used it frequently. Point being, no mortal man has EVER been able to hit Kobashi with it without it being their downfall and now Misawa has destroyed that law. 


*
YET HE STILL FREAKING KICKS OUT *



Misawa is now in udder amazement and fear seems to embrace his face. No man could survive all this. No animal could survive all this. Not even a being of great power can survive all this. Misawa then goes to his ace in the hole.......the golden elbow(Sledgehammer). Misawa takes off his elbow pad and drags a Kobashi that is actually trying to get away.....something that Kobashi has never tried to do. Misawa tells him that it is over. Kobashi then, out of sheer desperation and final grasp to win, pulls at Misawa's weakened arm that he has been sum what nursing in the match and locks him into a Guillotine. Misawa is shocked and starts to panic out of the air being taken from him. Misawa, being The Ace, doesn't give in and refuses to acknowledge the fact he can lose. He tries to power out in every way but can't. Finally, after several seconds, realizes his right arm is free to deliver his elbow to the face of Kobashi and to end this fiasco......but it is far to late. Misawa's body has been deprived of it's air and he has no more power to even deliver it. He finally taps out. This whole time it becomes clear who has won. Misawa beat Kobashi before Kobashi and Akiyama(HBK) had that excellent series the past two times at this event and Misawa did here again.....but it was the streak that beat him. The entity that is called the streak defeated Misawa......Kobashi had been far gone already.


So yeah. I love the match and completely rewritten it for you so maybe you get a actual understanding of the storytelling. If you want to argue why it was as good as it was with more detailed facts then feel free. The match speaks for it self but I'll gladly write it down for you. Now if you didn't enjoy it, well that's just YOU.

Oh and I didn't rate this five stars ether but I can see why people did or do. Not going to tell them that their opinion is wrong though.


----------



## topper1

Now if you would have pointed out that HHH and Taker laid on the ground for 2 mins after every move they did and that they did a total of under 20 moves in a 30 min match you might have a point. Misawa and Kobashi brought the story and the wrestling HHH vs Taker just brought the story.

Solid match told a good story and WWE crowd was into on the biggest stage of them all. Doesn't change the fact they hit a power move then would rest for 2 mins then repeat that over and over again the whole match. ****


----------



## TelkEvolon

I think it is VERY easy to write story into a match. Adding expressions, thoughts and using wordplay to make it seem like a big deal, another person could come along and write out Triple H vs The Undertaker as a very dull match.

A creative writing piece is a terrible example. The story is as good as you make it.


That's not a knock on the great story you wrote out, but you could make Triple H vs Randy Orton from WrestlMania 25 sound just as good.


----------



## jawbreaker

Oh god, not this shit again.


----------



## sXsCanadianFansXs

*If you guys aren't watching WWE Superstars, you should start*

There are some great little matches on the show (the past three weeks).
Anyway, here are my star ratings for the best matches on free TV this past little while (no MOTYC, but some are well worth checking out):

WWE Smackdown:
-Sheamus vs. Daniel Bryan (May 6th) *** 
Great action for the time that they had with good psychology. Another 5 - 10 mins and this would creep into four star territory.
-World Heavyweight Championship: Christian (c) vs. Randy Orton (May 6th) ***1/2
Orton is awesome at getting crowd reactions for the smallest things. He has amazing body language and Christian brought the heart.
-Sin Cara vs. Daniel Bryan (May 13) ***1/4
Smooth, crisp wrestling between two great wrestlers. What more can you ask for? Seek it out if you haven't seen it.

WWE Superstars
-Trent Baretta vs. Tyson Kidd (April 28) ***1/2 
Wow! These two were given time to steal the show and it was great. Watch this if you guys don't think WWE can still have good matches.
-Evan Bourne vs. Zack Ryder (May 5) ***+
Exciting and fast-paced.
-Trent Baretta vs. Tyson Kidd (May 12) ***1/2
A worthy successor to their previous bout. For those that don't know, Kidd's new manager is *Michael Hayes*
-Zack Ryder vs. Vladimir Koslov (May 12) **1/2
The best Koslov has looked
-Drew McIntyre vs. Chris Masters (May 12) ***
Note to all indy guys: this is how you sell a leg. McIntyre showed great aggression while Masters sold the leg beautifully.

Seek out the two Baretta/Kidd matches and Sin Cara vs. Daniel Bryan.


----------



## Bubz

You could have just written that with the real names and moves, and it still would have sounded exactly the same, adding the names Kobashi and Misawa to the match isn't going to make people see it differently. Nice effort though.

Sin Cara vs Daniel Bryan was pretty awesome for an under 10 minute tv match.


----------



## peachchaos

WWE
Daniel Bryan vs The Miz - Raw 2.14.11 ***1/4
Another nice showing from these two, as I see them as perfect foils for each other. Imagine how awesome this could've been on PPV with some build up. Its funny how Bryan holds a win over the Miz, but that wasn't enough to get him a title shot.

Lumberjack Match: Daniel Bryan vs Sheamus - Wrestlemania 27 Bonus Match DUD
In hindsight I'm really happy this WASN'T shown on PPV. Just an awful segment all around. Bryan and Sheamus do their thing for like two minutes before the lumberjacks get into a melee, which brings out Teddy Long (awful) who dances for no reason and sets up a pointless Battle Royal for no reason. Whoever uploaded the clip at least had the foresight to cut the segment off before the Battle Royal, which is very much a blessing in disguise. Such a shame when you consider that if you just CUT THE MUTHERFUCKERS LOOSE, they'd probably have a four star match.

Daniel Bryan vs Sheamus - Smackdown 5.6.11 ***1/4
And here we have it: The two men work a normal match (albeit this time w/out a title on the line) and the results are highly entertaining. Love seeing DB in there with big men, and Sheamus is really coming along. I'd watch these guys wrestle every week.

Daniel Bryan vs Sin Cara - Smackdown 5.13.11 ***1/2
Man, did this feel like WCW Thunder or what? The dimmed blue lights were a page outta Glacier's book, and the match was something straight outta the cruiserweight division. These aren't complaints. In fact I kinda dig the fact that they're trying to present Sin Cara in a different light when they have a million cookie cutter white bros on their roster. Bryan gives him a run for his money, and there are moments when - yeah - you feel you are watching two of the best out there today. Such a damn shame that this match served as mere backdrop for a feud/angle with Chavo, someone who should've been moved to a backstage roll years ago. Seriously, I'm sure I'm not alone in thinking they're crazy for not running a Bryan-Cara feud, cuz I pay crazy money for a PPV to watch this match again. I pray for a rematch.


PWG
American Wolves vs RockNES Monsters - PWG DDT4 2011 ***
Kings of Wrestling vs Kevin Steen & Akira Tozawa - PWG DDT4 2011 ***3/4
Young Bucks vs American Wolves - PWG DDT4 2011 ***1/2
Young Bucks vs Kevin Steen & Akira Tozawa - PWG DDT4 2011 ****1/4

Very hard not to get into the Nightmare Violence Connection after this year's DDT4. PWG took two awesome workers, created a team out of thin air, and stumbled upon a new flavor of awesomeness. Pretty great to finally see the Wolves team up in a PWG ring, and the Bucks have become so great in their heel rolls. The RockNES Monsters gimmick is dumb.

I watch other indy promotions, but I eagerly await every PWG show. Nothing like it right now.


----------



## Paroxysm

Sin Cara vs Daniel Bryan ***1/2, a nice blend of their styles - but they can both do much more. I hope to see a big deal made of matches between these two sometime in the future.


----------



## antoniomare007

TelkEvolon said:


> I think it is VERY easy to write story into a match. Adding expressions, thoughts and using wordplay to make it seem like a big deal, another person could come along and write out Triple H vs The Undertaker as a very dull match.
> *
> A creative writing piece is a terrible example. The story is as good as you make it.*


This.


----------



## Noah Mark

***** Casas vs Blue Panther-4/24/2011 ****. I just watched this match and it was tremendous. Blue Panther is still one of the best in the world. ***** played a really good heel in this one.


----------



## seancarleton77

Mercedes Martinez vs. Angel Orsini is getting some praise and even some match of the year nominations. I thought the match was a very good women match and 10x the match Taker vs. Triple H was, and I'm not even nominating it. Fuck Wrestlemania, it was a terrible show with nothing memorable, except for having a main event even worse than Bam Bam vs. LT.


----------



## Nervosa

For Capone, who I predominately respect, but disagree with immensely on this match: 

It is unbelievable that you think substituting the names can make this comparable to any of the Kobashi/Misawa matches. The worst part of it is that one of the best things about the Kobashi/Misawa matches was the number one thing that this match was lacking: any considerable control (and therefore storytelling) whatsoever. 

There was a desperate exchange of moves, lying around, pointless repeated counters (that actually didn’t work early in the match, but then suddenly they’re affective) then, about 10 minutes too late, Trips finally gets control, goes all out with a lot of nearfalls that weren’t even kinda believable since taker hadn’t had a comeback, and then Taker wins out of nowhere with an incredibly sloppy submission that he basically had to re-do mid move. 

Another ridiculous comparison is the one between repeated Tiger Drivers to repeated Pedigrees. not only have Pedigrees been kicked out many times in history, there is another HUGE difference: when Misawa hit a second Tiger driver, people thought it was over. After Trips' second Pedigree, no one believed it as a finish for a second. And why? Because Taker hadn’t had enough control, at any point, for that to be the finish. A finish there would have buried Taker without him having had any control, or comeback, or anything. No fan in the world could have thought that THAT was how they were going to end it: without Taker getting considerable offensive control. In other words……horrible story telling. 

Topper also had a great point: you ignore all the lying around between moves, making the crowd wonder if they can run and get a soda and get back before the guys get up again. That's how dull these times were. It didn't increase the drama, because since neither man had taken considerable, repeated damage without suddenly countering, it never seemed like any of the big spots were actually working. 

You’re saying Trips sold the arm, which is just ridiculous. Not only was the arm never targeted by any moves from Taker, Trips didn’t even act like it was hurt. Now you’re just making shit up. Even if he was selling it somewhere I overlooked, he shouldn’t be, because he didn’t take any damage to it. Not really a problem though, since he WASN’T SELLING IT. That was never even a storyline in the match. You’re the first person to even mention it on any analysis I’ve ever seen.

Telk is right: you wrote a story into a match that didn’t tell one. Congrats. 

You asked for facts on why the match wasn’t good. I responded to as many of your points as I could find. I now invite you to do the same with my review:




Nervosa said:


> Undertaker vs. Hunter Hearst Helmsley
> ***1/2
> 
> Over the past 4 years or so, I have fallen in love with enough Japanese Junior matches to understand how a spotfest can be done in order to protect the storytelling necessity in a match. Yes, we have all seen a match where spots replaced story, and while we may marvel at the athleticism and the ability to take a beating, eventually, we have to admit that a story needs to be in place for a match to have any kind of quality.
> 
> For the first half of this match, there wasn’t a story. I know others have said that the story was that Trips was the first man ‘bad’ enough to take a fight to the Undertaker, but I’m sorry: the match itself didn’t reflect that. From the get-go, we had slugging, and then we had spots, and then we had lying around. Triple H’s spear into the Cole Mine looked crappy and painless. He had almost no velocity, and had to push twice just to get the thing to break. Taker backdrops Trips off the announce table, and staggers around into the ring, where EVERYONE knew he was about to hit his dive. He’s done it enough times at Mania that it loses a lot of its allure. It was cool in the first place because you had never seen a man his size do it. Now, we have….for the past 5 years or so, and its lost its luster.
> 
> Any story that would have come into play is derailed by the random shifts in control. In the aforementioned Japanese Junior matches, they don’t just hit spots straight after one another: they usually need at least two counters to regain enough control to hit big moves. Taker match against Shawn at WM25 failed to do this, but at 26, they fixed it with a nice, subtle workover of Taker’s leg. This match fails worse than even the WM25 match did. Taker is spinebustered through the table, thrown in the ring, yet he is IMMEDIATELY able to hit Trips with a chokeslam. Trips takes two BIG chairshots, and then gets up and immediately manages to hit the first pedigree. I’m sorry, I don’t care how big of a star you are: That makes no sense.
> 
> There are also some real head-scratching parts in this section. Trips mounts the corner, and gets countered into the Last Ride, which he escapes. But then later in the match, he mounts the corner THE EXACT SAME WAY (first off:WHY?!?!) then gets countered THE EXACT SAME WAY, but for some reason, even though he has seen this EXACT sequence already, and even though he had the wherewithal to mount the corner, he somehow CANT escape this time? Why? I think they blew the spot the first time, and had to repeat it, as it’s the only way this makes sense.
> 
> Triple H hit the pedigree the first time, and no one cared. He hit it the second time, and since Undertaker hadn’t had a big comeback, it took all the suspense out of it. I didn’t buy the second, or third pedigree for a second, and I don’t really see how you could. It really shows not only how limited Trips’ moveset is, but also little he can actually do outside of hardcore rules.
> 
> All of this lends to the bigger problem: no one gains serious control for the first 15 or so minutes. If Taker had gained control, we might remember how powerful the streak really is. If Trips did, then it could build up what a bad ass he really is, and increase the idea that the streak might be broken. Instead, neither do so, and therefore, a story fails to be built.
> 
> The first semblance of any control segment is when HHH wails on Undertaker with 9 consecutive chairshots. This got my attention, and finally got me to care about Triple H’s character in the match. I honestly thought to myself: this is where they save the match. The Tombstone was a great spot, but even here…with NO real tease that the Undertaker was ever in any semblance of control in this match, I can’t say I ever took the Tombstone spot seriously. If it had honestly ended there, it would have looked like Taker NEVER stood a chance, considering how he was never in the drivers’ seat.
> 
> I get the segment with the sledgehammer at the end (even though it’s a recycled version of the HIAC match against Batista) But the Hell’s Gate was just WAY too ‘out of nowhere.’ Taker didn’t look strong in this match at all. He looked TOUGH, but not STRONG. The Hell’s Gate itself was very sloppy in execution, and Taker kinda had to re-lock it in. Even this, from a storyline standpoint, made little sense. You expect me to believe after that after that kind of beating, HHH just walks straight into it, and has no idea how to fight out of the hold, even though Taker is flubbing the execution. That kills a lot of this for me.
> 
> In summary, Triple H’s final control session and everything that happened AFTER the Gate was locked in was excellent. The rest was pretty mediocre. I’m sorry, but I don’t think I’m being too demanding in asking for a serious control session before a real, extended comeback in order to be enthralled by a match. Everyone go watch Ito vs. Kasai from a couple years ago, substitute the deathmatch for ‘hardcore’ spots, and you’ll see how you do a hardcore match and tell a story at the same time. A lesser example is actually HHH’s match against Shawn from Summerslam 02, for those who don’t wanna foray into deathmatch. As for this match, there’s just not enough actual story or substance for me to ignore the often-sloppy execution between the huge spots.


----------



## peachchaos

I like your review, but it doesn't exactly justify a ***1/2 rating. You point out so many flaws and things that bug you, yet this is only a 1/2 * away from being must-see material? Again, I like your review and agree with your assessment, but I think the snowflakes are kinda pandering to the few outspoken fans of this match. Just sayin'.


----------



## seabs

sXsCanadianFansXs said:


> *If you guys aren't watching WWE Superstars, you should start*












*I hate the idea that people dont watch Superstars just because it's perceived as the show for guys who aren't good enough for the main shows. Bourne vs Ryder is one of the best WWE TV matches this year. Actually the majority of WWE's best matches this year have been on Superstars.*


----------



## Tarfu

I'm with you guys. Many years from now Superstars will finally receive the appreciation it never got in its time. The best show nobody watches.


----------



## Nervosa

peachchaos said:


> I like your review, but it doesn't exactly justify a ***1/2 rating. You point out so many flaws and things that bug you, yet this is only a 1/2 * away from being must-see material? Again, I like your review and agree with your assessment, but I think the snowflakes are kinda pandering to the few outspoken fans of this match. Just sayin'.


Even matches I love, I nitpick, as anyone here can surely tell you. Yes, I lambasted this match, but I feel like I gave a lot of of things in there that I did like. The control session was good, even if the nearfalls weren't believable, and the stuff after Hunter was locked in until the end was gold. 

I should also classify that I don't think 4 stars is must-see: just a very good match. If its not ****1/2 I don't even consider it a MOTY candidate. (I only have 3 so far this year, and only 2 in the calendar year.) For me, that little 1/2 is a HUGE difference. Even with all the crap, the spots ARE strong enough to at least keep it from being unwatchable. Anything lower than 3 is something I'll just turn off, and at least I willed myself to watch all of this. Most of why I went out of my way to point this stuff out was because so many people at the time (and some now) consider it over 4 stars.

But I do see your point, and I guess it is possible that if I had seen it without seeing peoples' reviews, I would have rated it lower, but no less than ***. Good criticism though. Its nice to see someone say ***1/2 is TOO high. 

Definitely moving in the right direction, at least.


----------



## -Mystery-

Tarfu said:


> I'm with you guys. Many years from now Superstars will finally receive the appreciation it never got in its time. The best show nobody watches.


Reminds me of Velocity in that sense tbh.


----------



## DFUSCMAN

I adore superstars, it's pretty much the most wrestling you get for an hour show and it's pretty awesome. It shows the full talent that roster has.


----------



## topper1

Claudio vs Devey Defy or Deny **** maybe ****1/4


----------



## Bubz

Definately gotta check that out, two of my favorites.

Kings vs Steen/Tozawa DDT4 2011 - ***3/4

So not a MOTYC but I thought I would give it a mention in here as it was pretty awesome. Kings are Kings Steen is Steen and Tozawa is pretty awesome, although he needs to sell a bit more. Him and Hero did some of the same sequences they did in their singles match last year which where just as awesome here. The Kings really looked like monsters which added to the story of the match and I really liked Steen not getting in to help Tozawa when he was being beaten down because he wanted to see what Tozawa was made of. What kept it from being higher is that it was pretty short, Steen seemed to hardly be in the match, and Tozawa no selling all of Heros biggest moves right at the end.


----------



## Rickey

TNA Sacrifice---Max Buck vs. Kazarian and Beer Money vs. Hardy and Harris are worth a look. Also watch for Kendrick getting that gimmick over.


----------



## jawbreaker

TNA brought back Chris Harris?


----------



## Rickey

jawbreaker said:


> TNA brought back Chris Harris?


Yeah I think it's just a one shot deal, if you know AMW the match has a nice callback to the team. The aura of will Storm turn or not was there too.


----------



## Sunglasses

NOAH GENESIS IN GERMANY: KENTA vs. Chris Hero ****1/4

Everything you'll expect. KENTA bleeding during the last 5-10min made this even better. The finish with the 2 GTS .. gnaaa awesome.


----------



## peachchaos

Sunglasses said:


> NOAH GENESIS IN GERMANY: KENTA vs. Chris Hero ****1/4
> 
> Everything you'll expect. KENTA bleeding during the last 5-10min made this even better. The finish with the 2 GTS .. gnaaa awesome.


Where.


----------



## Alan4L

Kings Of Wrestling vs. Morishima & Taniguchi from the Saturday UK show was incredible!

Maybe my second fave Kings match of all time.


----------



## TelkEvolon

Garagno & Taylor vs Dragon Kid & CIMA - DGUSA United: Philly

****1/4


----------



## starship.paint

TelkEvolon said:


> Garagno & Taylor vs Dragon Kid & CIMA - DGUSA United: Philly
> 
> ****1/4


ah, I remember this one. CIMA's performance was awesome, and he played his part in the ending brilliantly.


----------



## lariatooooo!!!

*Pro Wrestling NOAH: EUROPEAN NAVIGATION Day 3
Genesis in Germany ~ 05/15/11, Oberhausen
International Dream Match: KENTA vs. Chris Hero*

Very likely the best bout I've seen live so far and lots of times better than their match on HDnet in ROH. Furthermore the best match of KENTER since he came back from his long injury lay-off. Superb! _****1/4_



peachchaos said:


> Where.


It was a cooperation show with wXw. DVD will be out in 2-3 months I guess, it was NOAHs last tour date in Europe.


----------



## Bubz

Sunglasses said:


> NOAH GENESIS IN GERMANY: KENTA vs. Chris Hero ****1/4
> 
> Everything you'll expect. KENTA bleeding during the last 5-10min made this even better. The finish with the 2 GTS .. gnaaa awesome.


OH MY GOD! My head almost exploded from the thought of such awesomeness.


----------



## topper1

Yuji Nagata vs Masato Tanaka 03.05.2011

**** Some issues with Nagata's selling and the wrong guy won but honestly I just wanted to see these two hit each other really hard and they did.


----------



## topper1

Eddie Edwards vs Roderick Strong 
****1/4 - **** 1/2 loved it my favorite Eddie match

Davey vs Daniels 2
***3/4 - **** barely makes my cut for the topic. I was pretty letdown by this considering there last match was in my top 3 last year and maybe even my #1

Sorry for the double post just finished MM 4 and didn't see I was the last person to post in the topic.


----------



## Bubz

*PWG DDT4 - Steen/Tozawa vs The Young Bucks *****
Really great story told here with Steen being the one that wont give up instead of Tozawa. Tozawa leaving and then coming back was awesome and he was on fire the minute he came back in. I said in another thread just yesterday that i didn't like the way the Bucks over use superkicks, but here it was done very well!

*ROH Defy Or Deny - Chris Hero vs TJP ****1/4*
HOLY SHIT! This was fucking sick. TJ is awesome but Hero is seriously in a league of his own right now. Just as good if not better than Davey/TJP.


----------



## lewieG

PWG DDT4 2011

Steen/Tozawa vs Young Bucks: **** - ****1/4

A 20 minute match that feels like it goes less than 10. It's a really good tag team structure with Tozawa getting taken out and Steen fighting by himself and making small comebacks before succumbing to his knee and both Bucks. As soon as Tozawa comes back, it's on at a crazy pace until the finish, with Tozawa 'fucking shit up' in the words of Chris Hero. The finish with Steen not allowing himself to go down to all the superkicks (in an awesome nod to the Bucks vs Steenerico match at BOLA 09), but then being pinned after a sick double stack More Bang For Your Buck. Then the Bucks cut an awesome promo afterwards which gets huge heat from the crowd, which rounds out the match. Keen to see the Bucks vs GeneRiccochet match for the titles from Subject to Change.


----------



## seancarleton77

topper1 said:


> Eddie Edwards vs Roderick Strong
> ****1/4 - **** 1/2 loved *it was my favorite Eddie matc*h


I wouldn't doubt if this is one of the most said things in all the iwc year round, Eddie Edwards has made the most dramatic change I've seen since the Ringmaster went Stone Cold. The man went from having some potential to being one of the best guys in the world in about 2 months.


----------



## The Great Maijin

No Snowflakes
Lethal Lockdown
Jeff Jarrett vs Kurt Angle Lockdown
Tanahashi vs Satoshi Kojima Tokyo Dome
Low ki vs Davey Richards Kurtrusslemania
Claudio Castognoli vs El Generico Kurtrusslemania


----------



## seancarleton77

IWGP Tag Team Title: “Bad Intentions” Giant Bernard & “The Machine Gun” Karl Anderson © vs “No Limit” Takahashi Yujiro & Naito Tetsuya = Nominated as a strong tag match of the year candidate. Naito is the star.


----------



## lariatooooo!!!

seancarleton77 said:


> IWGP Tag Team Title: “Bad Intentions” Giant Bernard & “The Machine Gun” Karl Anderson © vs “No Limit” Takahashi Yujiro & Naito Tetsuya = Nominated as a strong tag match of the year candidate. Naito is the star.


Thought I was the only one who pretty much liked it. The build up was somehow realistic and Bernard destroying everyone was fun as always, especially Naito got his ass kicked big time.


----------



## Bubz

*ROH Defy Or Deny - Claudio Castagnoli vs Davey Richards *****
Great match and probably better than their match at FCT Dayton. The finishing stretch was great. Claudio looked like a beast as usual and Davey was his usual awesome self so there was lots to enjoy here. Didn't enjoy it quite as much as Hero/TJP though as it didn't seem as fresh and original.


----------



## Corey

*PWG - DDT4 2011
*
The Young Bucks vs. Kevin Steen & Akira Tozawa - ****
_I really enjoyed this over any other match in the tournament. Steen's selling was good, the blood added a nice touch, and the nearfalls were great. And of course lots of superkicks._


----------



## Zatiel

Masato Yoshino Vs. Don Fuji from Dragon Gate Infinity 206

Enjoyed it as much as any match this year, if not moreso. Quite possible I'm the only one, but jeeze. Fuji has worked a lot harder in the last two years and this was his strongest singles performance. He plugged the Chokeslam into some good spots, especially turning around Yoshino's world-beating Super Lightning Spiral. I totally would have accepted the Super Rana sequence as a finish despite being early for a DG match to end. Yoshino piled everything onto him for high drama. I loved Mochizuki coming into the ring prematurely thinking his buddy had won the belt. Definitely my favorite of Yoshino's defenses, much to my surprise.


----------



## seabs

*Chris Hero vs TJ Perkins - ROH Defy Or Deny*
_Heaps better than TJ's match with Davey and peaking ahead of the O'Reilly match too. They played really nicely off off the size difference with Hero constantly getting the upper hand when it came down to a battle of strength or leverage. TJ getting fired up and throwing stiff strikes at Hero and Hero returning them was great. Hero kept the elbows minimal and that made them seem more effective when he did hit one. Loved the finish. Kinda sudden but if fit the match and they need to give more non finisher moves pins. Hero's rolling kick is awesome and I loved him getting the win with it. I get why they're not big on bringing in outside talent, especially from Japan but it's clear what a big difference it makes to their shows just bringing in someone like TJP.

****_

*Eddie Edwards vs Michael Elgin - ROH Defy Or Deny*
_Loved the old school vibe mixed in with the modern Indy moves. They really showed that you can still have a great wrestling match without having to work the flawed current style that so many think they need to do in order to get over. Both men have their flaws but they both play to their strengths and cover up any shortcomings that they may have perfectly. Edwards is an awesome underdog, Elgin is an awesome powerhouse and together they match up brilliantly. There was one kid in the crowd and Eddie gave him a high five and it was so great seeing this kid turn around like it was the greatest moment of his life being high fived by a wrestler. I love stuff like that which makes wrestling so fun, kinda like how girls would go to Mid South shows in the 80's just to run to the front row when the Fantastics or the Rock N Roll's came out so they could get a kiss off them. Elgin really showed here that he can be more than a spotty power freak. That's his selling point though so he still does all of that but he looked much more natural in the ring too. The moonsault catch on the outside into the inverted OKL stampede was a phenomenal spot and it led to a rare but great count out tease. Loved the spot where Elgin went for a lariat with his right arm three times in a row but Edwards kept dodging them so Elgin just took his head with a lariat from his left side. Finishing stretch is one of the best I've seen in a while and it didn't rely on big kickouts to get the match over. Truth's interference was done really well and the double achilles lock was an awesome spot. Edwards shouting ELGIN as he hit big moves was a bit goofy but it played nicely into him shouting RODERICK for the finish. Set the title match up really well and got Eddie over perfectly as the underdog challenger that everyone could get behind. 

****1/4_

*Claudio Castagnoli vs Davey Richards - ROH Defy Or Deny*
_Davey vs Claudio had quite a few flaws but it was still good enough to reach **** which says a lot about how good the good parts of the match were. Gonna get the negatives out of the way first. I dont know if Davey's new gimmick is gonna be that he's not safe on the top rope and constantly botches stuff up off there or if it's leading anywhere at all. If not then it's a really tragic coincidence that he's made 3 major fuck ups on the ropes lately. 2 on that weekend and against against King on one of the Revolution shows. This one seemed the safest of the botches but it could have been really bad. Davey also had some of the flaws that hinder all of his matches. The stupid facials, screams and generally awful unnatural selling were all there. Like I said though this was indeed great. Started off brilliantly with some awesome david/goliath dynamic. Loved using his speed to gain the upper hand after Claudio's power just cut him off every time and it led perfectly to the dive spot. Davey's now gone from having the most ludacris dive to pulling out probably the safest suicide dive here that I have ever seen. Claudio is freakishly strong (dunno if anyone here has noticed yet) and he uses it really well in his matches now. The top rope fall away slam was incredible, especially after how badly the last time they were both on the top rope ended up for them. Davey's running kick on the apron missing Claudio but hitting Hagadorn and then turning around to catch Claudio with a flying DDT was a super sweet spot too. Finish had some big kickouts but it was how a Indy style finish should be done if they want it to be effective. The rest of the show didn't have any big kickouts in the finish which was great for those matches but it also made the false finishes in this match more buyable. Only doing a big dramatic finish in one match per show will be great and it'll make them so much more effective when they do come along. They did it perfectly here too as the guy kicking out was the guy who took the fall. Don't mind people kicking out of big moves as long as they don't make a sudden comeback and start hitting big moves themselves.

****_


----------



## Bubz

The Kick and then the tornado DDT off the apron was fucking awesome, marked out big time for that. Also Davey just shouting 'FUCK YOU' to Claudio before kicking his head off was sick.

On the subject of shouting, Hero shouting at TJ was awesome as well and funny as hell, 'YOU THINK I'M A CHAMPION BECAUSE I'M A BITCH?!'


----------



## antoniomare007

*Roderick Strong vs Eddie Edwards - Manhattan Mayhem IV*

The middle part went way too long but overall this was very good. Roderick did an awesome job putting Eddie over in almost every exchange and the reaction to the ending was great.


----------



## aaron_mcn92

I watched Strong vs. Edwards purely because I was intrigued to see how they handled the title change. I'm not an ROH fan anymore because after watching Japanese stuff I find the ROH style silly and distracting, but that doesn't mean I can't appreciate an example of good pro wrestling booking. Maybe it's good booking in the sense that it was well received by the crowd on this one night, but I still think it will hurt in the long run.

JUST appraising the match as far as how well they built towards Edwards taking the title, I found it very questionable. I get that his win was a shock victory and it was an example of unpredictability, but that doesn't mean Edwards can't look strong in winning the match. And to me, there was hardly any moment where it looked like Strong was in real danger of losing. A lot of that has to do with the ROH style, which is mainly back-and-forth action with neither guy in control for any long stretch of time, but if you're going to do that in a match featuring a title change then surely you'd want to have the challenger win with one of the more impressive spots of the match? In this match they do a roll-up finish and it just came off strange and erroneous. Particularly since it came after what I thought was the only decently good moment of the match where Strong spit in Edwards face and delivered a few signatures with a little more aggressiveness. That frustration might be the closest thing we ever get to selling the effects of the match with Mr. Strong. Edwards could have made a decent comeback to that but we got a roll-up instead. It just seemed wrong. If you wanted to cast some kayfabe doubt on whether Edwards is ready for the title yet, then have Strong make a mistake at the peak point of the match and then give Edwards a few signature moves leading to the victory. At least that way Edwards' moves look strong while the "better man" is still unclear.

That's my reaction to it anyway.


----------



## geraldinhio

I have to see Hero and TJP soon .Why TJP isn't a regualar in ROH I do not know.


----------



## Nervosa

aaron_mcn92 said:


> I watched Strong vs. Edwards purely because I was intrigued to see how they handled the title change. I'm not an ROH fan anymore because after watching Japanese stuff I find the ROH style silly and distracting, but that doesn't mean I can't appreciate an example of good pro wrestling booking. Maybe it's good booking in the sense that it was well received by the crowd on this one night, but I still think it will hurt in the long run.
> 
> JUST appraising the match as far as how well they built towards Edwards taking the title, I found it very questionable. I get that his win was a shock victory and it was an example of unpredictability, but that doesn't mean Edwards can't look strong in winning the match. And to me, there was hardly any moment where it looked like Strong was in real danger of losing. A lot of that has to do with the ROH style, which is mainly back-and-forth action with neither guy in control for any long stretch of time, but if you're going to do that in a match featuring a title change then surely you'd want to have the challenger win with one of the more impressive spots of the match? In this match they do a roll-up finish and it just came off strange and erroneous. Particularly since it came after what I thought was the only decently good moment of the match where Strong spit in Edwards face and delivered a few signatures with a little more aggressiveness. That frustration might be the closest thing we ever get to selling the effects of the match with Mr. Strong. Edwards could have made a decent comeback to that but we got a roll-up instead. It just seemed wrong. If you wanted to cast some kayfabe doubt on whether Edwards is ready for the title yet, then have Strong make a mistake at the peak point of the match and then give Edwards a few signature moves leading to the victory. At least that way Edwards' moves look strong while the "better man" is still unclear.
> 
> That's my reaction to it anyway.


It is SO awesome to hear someone else saying this. People were treating me like I was nuts when I was saying that ROH has lost their ability to tell a story in the ring. I'm more relived than anything else: I thought I had lost my mind there, for second.

Its even more obvious from someone who watches japanese wrestling like yourself: workover and comeback is becoming MORE important in Japan right now, but less in ROH.

This is actually probably the only bad thing that has come in since delirious started booking: ROH matches never have control sessions anymore. Its just moves and counter moves. This is perfect for someone like Eddie, who has no fucking clue how to tell a story, be worked over, or time a comeback, but has a good moveset. Unfortunately, its sad for people like Roddy and Davey, who we all KNOW can tell a story, but are just doing moves. The main upside is that such a formula is really good for a tag division, where stories write themselves, to a large degree.


----------



## Bubz

Hero/TJ is the nuts!

*Manhattan Mayhem IV*

*KOW vs LAX *****
This just makes it on to my MOTY list. Something seemed a tad off near the start but it quickly turned in to one of the funnest matches I have seen this year. LAX looked great especialy Hernandez who is a beast and him and Claudio squaring off was sweet. The last few minutes or more were so so good! The spot with Hernandez throwing Homicide over the freaking ring post was so awesome and Homicide is a crazy bastard for letting that happen. Great and fun match, as we have all come to expect from the Kings 

*Eddie Edwards vs Roderick Strong ****1/2*
This was awesome and my new MOTY. Lets get one thing straight first; this is not a technical wrestling masterpiece, it is simply two guys throwing bombs and beating the shit out of each other and doing it pretty damn well. Forget the loaded elbow pad, Edwards has loaded hands, the guy could chop through a brick wall. This was stiff as hell and all the better for it. They didn't over do the finishing stetch, and the ending was great, a perfect way to end the match after all Eddie had been through in the last minute or so. I marked out big time and Eddie genuinely looked thrilled. I dont know how anyone could watch this and not be happy for the guy, hell of a hard worker that I think deserved that moment more than anyone after what he has done to his body the last few years for us fans. Brilliant match and a brilliant moment.

I was going to watch Davey/Daniels before i posted this but i wanted to write how much i loved these two matches straight away (Dont know why i watched the title match before the pure rules match).


----------



## seabs

*Kings Of Wrestling vs LAX - ROH Manhattan Mayhem IV*
_****1/4_

*Christopher Daniels vs Davey Richards - Pure Wrestling Rules - ROH Manhattan Mayhem IV*
_****1/4_

*Eddie Edwards vs Roderick Strong - ROH World Championship - ROH Manhattan Mayhem IV*
_****_


----------



## Bubz

*Davey Richards vs Christopher Daniels ****1/4*
The botched finish aside, this was awesome! The pure rules made the match so much more interesting and as others have said the submissions in the ropes were great and i haven't seen them done before. Davey is awesome and the things other people dislike about him I like such as his manerisms and intensity and Daniels is just an amazing wrestler. If it wasn't for the finish this would probably be my MOTY.


----------



## SHIRLEY

geraldinhio said:


> I have to see Hero and TJP soon .Why TJP isn't a regualar in ROH I do not know.


California


----------



## jawbreaker

TJP allegedly charges a fuckton to book as well.


----------



## rafz

NJPW Wrestling Dontaku 03/05 
_Apollo 55 vs. No Remorse Corps_ ****3/4*

Dragon Gate Dead Or Alive
_PAC vs. Naruki Doi _******
_Masaaki Mochizuki vs. YAMATO _******


----------



## seancarleton77

Chris Hero & Claudio Castagnoli vs. Homicide & Hernandez (ROH) [03//19/2011] - This was one part classic tag action, one part HO-LEE-SHIT!! Just seeing Hernandez in the UFO & Hernandez tossing Claudio overhead alone make this awesome, add in Hero & the best Homicide I've seen since 2006. This match also had a lot of suspense.

Christopher Daniels vs. Davey Richards (ROH) [03//19/2011] - This match was incredible, incredibly unique that is. Pure Rules allowed both men to using the ropes in unique ways. I haven't seen submission wrestling like this in years. Finish was rushed due to Davey impaling himself on the top rope when he misjudged the distance on a Shooting Star Press.

Eddie Edwards vs. Davey Richards (ROH) [03//19/2011] - My favourite match of the entire weekend. I won't lie, I'm a huge Eddie Edwards mark, so I had a lot invested in this match. Of course I still don't consider it match of the year.

Adam Cole & Kyle O'Reilly vs. Michael Elgin & Mike Mondo (ROH) [03//19/2011] - Elgin is beastly. This match is at least worth checking out, ever see someone hit a fall away slam and a Samoan Drop on two opponents simultaneously? Cole & O'Reilly using their tag team specialism to throw off the big men was excellent.

Davey Richards vs. Claudio Castagnoli (ROH) [03/18/2011] - These two never disappoint when they 're going at it one on one. You have to see this one for yourself. The size difference makes it better. 

Chris Hero vs. TJ Perkins (ROH) [03/18/2011] - This was the most interesting match up of the weekend. TJ's offence combined with Hero's aggression made it a sight to be seen. I wouldn't consider it a strong contender, but it sure as hell needs to be viewed.


----------



## Chismo

*Kings of Wrestling vs. LAX* *(ROH Manhattan Mayhem IV)*

Tag team dream match, and it was amazing. Great action, stiff wrestling and some pretty great sequences. Homicide was great here, gotta give him that. But I was pretty impressed with SuperMex Hernandez, he looked like that bad-ass from 2006/07, and he reminded me why I loved him back then pretty quickly with his powerful moves. Hernandez/Claudio parts were AWESOME, great powerhouse exchanges. Claudio is phenomenal really and Hero is Hero, which means he's unstoppable. Really great performances from both teams, and it's really sad to know that Homicide and Hernandez are not in the same company.
*
****1/4*


*Claudio Castagnoli vs. Davey Richards* *(ROH Defy or Deny)*

Size difference rocked here. Great match this was. Claudio is great. And I mean, REALLY great, his presence, look and wrestling style are outstanding. His offense is pretty powerful, it's just a damn shame that Davey's selling sucks ass sometimes. I honestly don't know why ROH pushes Richards as their new top dog, he got nothing. Sure, he has some personality, but that personality is annoying, stupid, silly and over the top. Not to mention his _''I'm a midget but I won't die and I'm gonna hit you hard because your offense is not strong enough''_ facial expressions. He's just annoying. I'm pretty pissed because ROH chose Eddie/Davey (Eddie is much better than Davey, tbh) as their top program for the future instead of, let's say, Hero/Claudio, because Kings are miles ahead of Wolves. Finishing stretch was pretty great with some great counters, but Davey fucked up his top rope spot, and it pretty damaged the finish, IMO. But still, great match this was.

****1/2*


----------



## Zatiel

seancarleton77 said:


> Eddie Edwards vs. Davey Richards (ROH) [03//19/2011] - My favourite match of the entire weekend. I won't lie, I'm a huge Eddie Edwards mark, so I had a lot invested in this match. Of course I still don't consider it match of the year.



Edwards Vs. Strong, you mean? I flipped out for a moment thinking I missed this match.


----------



## seabs

seancarleton77 said:


> Eddie Edwards vs. Davey Richards (ROH) [03//19/2011] - My favourite match of the entire weekend. I won't lie, I'm a huge Eddie Edwards mark, so I had a lot invested in this match. Of course I still don't consider it match of the year.


*The only criteria for a match is that it had to actually happen.

*


JoeRulz said:


> *Claudio Castagnoli vs. Davey Richards* *(ROH Defy or Deny)*
> 
> Size difference rocked here. Great match this was. Claudio is great. And I mean, REALLY great, his presence, look and wrestling style are outstanding. His offense is pretty powerful, it's just a damn shame that Davey's selling sucks ass sometimes. I honestly don't know why ROH pushes Richards as their new top dog, he got nothing. Sure, he has some personality, but that personality is annoying, stupid, silly and over the top. Not to mention his _''I'm a midget but I won't die and I'm gonna hit you hard because your offense is not strong enough''_ facial expressions. He's just annoying. I'm pretty pissed because ROH chose Eddie/Davey (Eddie is much better than Davey, tbh) as their top program for the future instead of, let's say, Hero/Claudio, because Kings are miles ahead of Wolves. Finishing stretch was pretty great with some great counters, but Davey fucked up his top rope spot, and it pretty damaged the finish, IMO. But still, great match this was.
> 
> ****1/2*


*At least a Davey/Eddie program is far fresher than rerunning Hero/Claudio again. Plus I'd much rather see Kings as a team than feuding with each other. For all his flaws Davey is generally speaking over with the majority of ROH crowds and the ROH main event scene is so limited atm they can not put him in top matches really.*


----------



## Bubz

Just re-watched LDRS vs Cole/O'Reilly from 16 carat. Fucking awesome, I liked it even more the second time round, definitely in my top 5 for the year so far.


----------



## Chismo

Seabs said:


> *
> At least a Davey/Eddie program is far fresher than rerunning Hero/Claudio again. Plus I'd much rather see Kings as a team than feuding with each other. For all his flaws Davey is generally speaking over with the majority of ROH crowds and the ROH main event scene is so limited atm they can not put him in top matches really.*


*

Eddie/Davey program belongs in semi main event, just like Steen/Generico from last year. In my fantasy world, ROH's main event/World Title scene would consist of Daniels, Generico, Elgin and Edwards OR Davey (not both of them) with Hero and Claudio lurking and then turning on each other (possible title feud).*


----------



## Bubz

The Kings won't be splitting up any time soon i don't think. They will go on to singles and then team every noww and again IMO or at least thats what i think should happen


----------



## Corey

*ROH - Defy or Deny*

Eddie Edwards vs. Michael Elgin - ****
_Great promo from Truth and Elgin beforehand. Fantastic match. Elgin is continuously improving and constantly impressing, and looking back this will probably be considered his breakout match. That Oklahoma Stampede he hit on the outside was pretty sick. What's crazy though is if you watch the tag match he was in at wXw Kreuzzug ZXI you'll see he's still got so much more to offer, and that's the match that made me really take notice. Now that they've signed him to a contract I'd love to see them push him hard and give him more matches like this on a consistent basis. Oh yeah, Edwards was good too._

Davey Richards vs. Claudio Castagnoli - ****1/4
_Did I think this was balls awesome? Yes I did. Incredible counter sequences to go along with more of Claudio's incredible displays of strength. I'd definitely say he's is one of the most underutilized guys in the company. His overall persona, character, and his sheer power just make him look like such a superstar. He needs to face Eddie for the belt immediately. He hasn't had a title shot in like what... 3 years? But on another note, Davey needs to slow down sometimes. He works at such a crazy pace he gets himself in bad situations on the top rope._


----------



## seabs

*I'd be super pissed if they take the belt off Eddie before doing a Claudio defense. Claudio would just be the ultimate compliment do Eddie's awesome underdog champion character. I'd love to see them do another Edwards/Elgin match but for the title too. *


----------



## Chismo

I agree with Seabs.

Eddie/Elgin
Eddie/Claudio
Eddie/Daniels (Final Encounter)
Eddie/Generico
Eddie/Bennett
Eddie/Lethal
Eddie/Low Ki
Eddie/KENTA
Eddie/Suzuki (GHC Jr. vs ROH title)
Eddie/Morishima
Eddie/Cabana
Eddie/Jay Briscoe


----------



## Bubz

Eddie should go on to have an awesome long reign proving himself before losing to Davey. Looking forward to the rest of this Eddie/Davey thing.


----------



## seabs

JoeRulz said:


> I agree with Seabs.
> 
> Eddie/Elgin
> Eddie/Claudio
> Eddie/Daniels (Final Encounter)
> Eddie/Generico
> Eddie/Bennett
> Eddie/Lethal
> Eddie/Low Ki
> Eddie/KENTA
> Eddie/Suzuki (GHC Jr. vs ROH title)
> Eddie/Morishima
> Eddie/Cabana
> Eddie/Jay Briscoe


*Why on earth would want to see Bennett in a title match? Only guys from that list that I'd want to see get a title shot are Elgin, Claudio, Daniels, Generico and possibly KENTA. Morishima sucks these days but 07 ROH Champ Morishima vs Eddie would be awesome. Suzuki would make little sense and we've already seen it. Face vs face matches are best when they are two guys who are both great natural wrestlers which Eddie aint so for me to care enough about a Edwards title reign he needs a strong heel and/or a strong backstory for his opponent. 

Outside of Claudio, Elgin and Davey I'm low on fresh and exciting opponents for him that are realistic. Generico would be a fine "in between" title defense. Another Daniels match would be ok but they'd have to hold back for a while for it to mean anything and have a special stip. Other than that I dunno really.*


----------



## fumble19

KOW LAX was great.always enjoy a good tag match


----------



## SuperDuperSonic

Everytime I see the name of just "Eddie," especially in matches against the likes of KENTA, Claudio, etc., I keep thinking it's Eddie Guerrero sadly.


----------



## Paroxysm

Randy Orton vs Christian, WWE Over The Limit ****1/2


----------



## Rickey

Orton/Christian-WWE Over the Limit worth a watch


----------



## FITZ

Paroxysm said:


> Randy Orton vs Christian, WWE Over The Limit ****1/2


Don't know if it was that good but it was pretty awesome. I watched the whole PPV at Buffalo Wild Wings so I wasn't paying nearly enough attention to give out star ratings. The part where Christian stopped himself from making the same mistake he made in his first match against Orton was one of my favorite moments of the match. 

Nothing else from Over the Limit deserves to even be mentioned in this thread.


----------



## Zatiel

It wasn't my MOTY, but it was darned good, and that's what this thread is for, so... Christian Vs. Orton!

Maybe the best match Orton's ever been in. I don't credit him for it primarily, but he held up his end as well as Cena did in Cena/Michaels. He's trying a lot harder at this face thing than he did six months ago.

Essentially Orton brought the popularity of a super-pushed guy, and Christian brought the know-how to milk it. Christian's emotion and selling plugged up the points when Orton simply lagged. Even his stupid Garvin Stomp didn't detract from it. The turnbuckle fakeout into the Sunset Flip was inspired. The Spear/Powerslam spot was great. After he actually did hit the Spear, I honestly believed Christian could win it. People do not tell better stories in WWE rings right now than Christian. I still had the sinking feeling he's going back down the card despite a heel turn being totally viable. Excellent stuff on an awful PPV.

And this was a face/face match that worked, utterly and completely. Nobody turned into a bad guy. Instead, the crowd bought into each guy's counters and comebacks. There were aggressors instead of heels; Orton was utterly over as champ when he won. I hope this helps rest the insipid argument that face/face can't work.


----------



## seabs

*Randy Orton vs Christian - World Heavyweight Championship - Over The Limit 2011*
_****_


----------



## KingKicks

*WWE Over The Limit 2011*

Randy Orton vs. Christian - *****¼-****½*
_Well this completely exceeded my expectations. The last 10 minutes of it I was literally on the edge of my seat. Excellent match with some great counters and spots especially the moment where they had Christian almost do the same thing which cost him the title in the first place.

Might even be my favourite Randy Orton match_


----------



## Ventish78

Randy Orton vs Christian - World Heavyweight Championship - Over The Limit 2011
****1/2
Wow! This was a stellar match, excellent performances from both competitors with great back and forth action. Christian actually had me thinking he could win it.


----------



## dj161

Christian vs Orton from WWE Over The Limit - ****

I too loved the fake-out for the RKO, plus some great counters from both guys, thoroughly enetertained from bell to bell


----------



## Bubz

*WWE Over The Limit - Christian vs Randy Orton ****1/4*
This was incredible! The best WWE match since Taker/Shawn. Christian is one hell of a wrestler, but it wasn't just Christian, Orton was fantastic in this match, His best match ever, he really seemed motivated and in to it which is something he has been missing for ages now. Some of the spots had me marking out like crazy including the spear into the powerslam and the punt attempt into the spear, what a spot that was, I especially liked Orton going for the punt the first time and then reconsidering what he was about to do, awesome. Everything was crisp and perfectly executed, I can't give this enough credit.


----------



## Chismo

I guess that's the only match worth watching?


----------



## Groovemachine

*Christian vs Randy Orton - WWE Over the Limit 2011 - ****1/4*

I second all prior statements heralding this fantastic encounter. For me, this surpasses Taker/HHH as my WWE MOTY. Orton showing signs of remorse, perhaps even weakness, as he prepared for the punt kick was brilliant, as was the subsequent spear nearfall. Go out of your way to see this if you haven't yet.


----------



## Chismo

Seabs said:


> *Why on earth would want to see Bennett in a title match? Only guys from that list that I'd want to see get a title shot are Elgin, Claudio, Daniels, Generico and possibly KENTA. Morishima sucks these days but 07 ROH Champ Morishima vs Eddie would be awesome. Suzuki would make little sense and we've already seen it. Face vs face matches are best when they are two guys who are both great natural wrestlers which Eddie aint so for me to care enough about a Edwards title reign he needs a strong heel and/or a strong backstory for his opponent.
> 
> Outside of Claudio, Elgin and Davey I'm low on fresh and exciting opponents for him that are realistic. Generico would be a fine "in between" title defense. Another Daniels match would be ok but they'd have to hold back for a while for it to mean anything and have a special stip. Other than that I dunno really.*


I'd like to see Bennett in a title match just to see what he can do in big match like that, why not. Not right away, but eventually. 
Fuck me, but I believe Morishima still has it, he just needs to be motivated. And Suzuki/Eddie sounds really attractive, since it's rematch and all. They could have a nice little callback on Bryan/KENTA program from 2006.


----------



## Tarfu

Didn't think they could top the match from Smackdown, but holy shit was I proven wrong. Amazing bout filled with beautiful counters and transitions. An epic battle that didn't rely heavily on false finishes or other clichés. The flow was there, the pace was near perfect, the psychological game... fuck me, one of my favorite matches ever.

MOTY, and the real main event of the night. You can't follow that.


----------



## seancarleton77

Hey Seabs, be honest and admit that Morishima's all time best match in Japan was against Sugiura in December. It's not Morishima that sucks, it's NOAH's atrocious booking team.


----------



## Bubz

seancarleton77 said:


> Hey Seabs, be honest and admit that *Morishima's all time best match in Japan was against Sugiura in December.* It's not Morishima that sucks, it's NOAH's atrocious booking team.


Fucking awesome match that was.

I appear to have vastly overrated the 6 man main event from Worlds Greatest lol, probably **** on a secong watch.


----------



## Chismo

Morishima/Sugiura ROCKED. **** easily.


----------



## seabs

*It was a strong match but neither guy stood out as being as a great worker. NOAH's booking doesn't help but there's still guys in NOAH who turn in awesome single performances like Suzuki and Takayama have lately. Morishima hasn't stood out from the pack since 08, maybe even 07. Dunno about it being his best match in Japan off the top of my head but I'm sure he's put in better performances than that match. Note the difference between putting in a great performance and being involved in a great match.*


----------



## Derek

His match with Misawa in '06 was awesome. He also had some really good tags with Rikio in '06.


----------



## Chismo

His matches with Misawa (2006, 2007 and 2008) were great. And KENTA/Morishima for the ROH title in NOAH.


----------



## seancarleton77

Takayama is only good when he's just throwing legit strikes now, he's too out of shape to wrestle singles now. Morishima is now better.


----------



## -Mystery-

Orton/Christian - ****3/4

This shit ruled.


----------



## Boom Baby

Orton/Christian OTL - ****-****1/4


----------



## Chismo

Just saw Orton/Christian. ****** Awesome fucking match. Right behind HHH/Taker (****1/2)



seancarleton77 said:


> *Takayama is only good when he's just throwing legit strikes* now, he's too out of shape to wrestle singles now. Morishima is now better.


Which is enough and effective and that's why I worship him.


----------



## Nuski

Orton/Christian - ****3/4. My MOTY for the WWE so far.


----------



## antoniomare007

I agree. 

Wathing them for the fist time HHH vs Taker > Orton vs Christian...watching them a 2nd time is the other way around for me.


----------



## topper1

Wow I'm shocked by the ratings for Christian vs Orton. I agree with Seabs rating of ****.


----------



## sXsCanadianFansXs

*WWE Over the Limit:*

-Randy Orton vs. Christian ****1/4
The WWE match of the year by quite a big margin. These two have amazing chemistry and this was nonstop action with smooth, crisp counters and a crowd that ate it all up. 

*RoH Defy or Deny:*

-Chris Hero vs. TJP ***3/4 - ****
Hero is always awesome and TJP has fresh offense that complimented his style.

-Michael Elgin vs. Eddie Edwards ****
A break out match for Elgin. 

-Davey Richards vs. Claudio Castagnoli ****+
Match of the night. Richards and Claudio are on a completely different level than everyone else on the indy scene barring maybe Generico and Hero. They didn't go overboard on the finishers and just had a hard hitting pro raslin match.

-Roderick Strong vs. Jay Briscoe vs. Homicide vs. El Generico ***3/4+
Homicide wasn't nearly as dreadful as I thought he would be but this match really picked up when he was eliminated. The final portion with Generico is great as he is just so damn sympathetic and easy to root for. 

*RoH Manhattan Mayhem IV:*

-Kings of Wrestling vs. LAX ***3/4 - ****
Homicide was motivated for this one as all four guys looked good. The finish is a tad abrupt but the action beforehand was pretty damn great.

-Pure Rules: Christopher Daniels vs. Davey Richards ****1/2
Wow. This is only the 3rd match of 2011 that I have given such a rating. I don't care what anyone says (fuck the haters), Davey is a phenomenal wrestler and Daniels rises to his level in their bouts. The result is a fantastic match hampered only by a horrific botch by Davey when he goes for a SSP. I'm not going to penalize the match however as both men recovered well and finished the match. I think I'll remember this match a year from now due to the unique rules and how the wrestlers incorporated their arsenal of moves to fit those guidelines. Phenomenal stuff and my #3 MotY.

-Roderick Strong vs. Eddie Edwards ****+
Technically, this was pretty great. They incorporated good counters, hard strikes and exciting moves but part of me was left kind of cold. I think the issue for me is that Strong & Edwards do not have any distinct personality that gets you attached to them. They are both kind of generic and lack the charisma that even someone like Richards has. Whereas the Pure rules match had two very different characters battling it out, this match felt like two no-name wrestlers putting on a fantastic fight. The last 5 minutes are golden and Edwards' title win is a good moment but it's not something I'll remember a month from now.


----------



## Corey

*WWE Over The Limit*

*World Heavyweight Championship*
Randy Orton(c) vs. Christian - ****1/4
_Incredible back and forths match. They wrestled at such a high pace it never got boring and didn't really have that slow headlock phase in the middle like their Smackdown match did. Great scouting from both guys in countering the other's signature moves, which made for some really cool scenes. Did anyone hear how quiet it got when Orton locked in the Billy Goat's Curse? I bet there was like 10 people in the crowd who were marking the fuck out while everyone else was asking the person next to them what the hell that move is. I know some people don't think it's original anymore for Orton to just hit an RKO out of nowhere to win but the way they keep coming up with new ones amazes me and it personally never gets old. Definitely check this one out. It'll probably end up in top 5 for the WWE this year._


----------



## sXsCanadianFansXs

*PWG DDT 4:*

-American Wolves vs. RockNES Monsters ***3/4+
Very good match but I never felt like Yuma or Goodtime were in the same league as the Wolves.

-Young Bucks vs. American Wolves ****1/4
Better than their match in RoH. 'Nuff said.

-Kings of Wrestling vs. Akira Tozawa & Kevin Steen ****+
Tozawa's intensity is ridiculously fun. It's nice to see Steen tear it up like he did regularly in RoH.

-Young Bucks vs. Kevin Steen & Akira Tozawa ****+
The Bucks' heel schtick is hilarious because you don't see genuine heat on the indys anymore. They fought a good babyface team of Steen & Tozawa and had a very good brawl.


----------



## Saint Dick

*WWE*
1. Triple H vs. Undertaker - WrestleMania XXVII 4/3/11
2. SmackDown Chamber - Elimination Chamber 2/20/11
3. Randy Orton vs. Christian - Over the Limit 5/22/11


----------



## topper1

Ownage™ said:


> Randy Orton vs. Christian - Extreme Rules


Awesome match these two had at Extreme Rules easily *****


----------



## TelkEvolon

topper1 said:


> Awesome match these two had at Extreme Rules easily *****


----------



## Tarfu

topper1 said:


> Wow I'm shocked by the ratings for Christian vs Orton. I agree with Seabs rating of ****.


You agree on four, but four and a half shocks you? DERP.

Star ratings make my head go boom.


----------



## Goku

The match was good, perhaps not on the epic scale of Triple H vs. Undertaker, but very fun.


----------



## Bubz

It was easily a better match than HHH/Taker IMO. The wretling was better, and it told a good story. While HHH/Taker had drama with no actual good wrestling, this had both.


----------



## topper1

Tarfu said:


> You agree on four, but four and a half shocks you? DERP.


For me the difference between **** and ****1/2 is a lot.


----------



## Goku

bubz123 said:


> It was easily a better match than HHH/Taker IMO. The wretling was better, and it told a good story. While HHH/Taker had drama with no actual good wrestling, this had both.


What is wrestling really?


----------



## reDREDD

Storytelling. Though I suppose it varies on a point of view basis.


----------



## Goku

topper1 said:


> For me the difference between **** and ****1/2 is a lot.


So by the same logic, you would be SHOCKED at a ***1/2 rating for that match, yes?


----------



## Bubz

Hohenheim of Light said:


> What is wrestling really?


I see your point, but wrestling can be a different thing to different people I suppose. For me I liked Christian/Orton more because there was more hold for hold wrestling, innovative spots and a constant flow throughout which never let up. In Taker/HHH the stalling really took away from it for me, but as I said in an earlier post I can understand why people loved it so much so I would never have a go at anyone for liking it that much, but for me it didn't do it.


----------



## topper1

Hohenheim of Light said:


> So by the same logic, you would be SHOCKED at a ***1/2 rating for that match, yes?


I would indeed think its to low.


----------



## Goku

Okay.


----------



## seabs

sXsCanadianFansXs said:


> Davey is a phenomenal wrestler and Daniels rises to his level in their bouts.


*???

Christian/Orton was definitely a better wrestling match than Taker/Trips. I don't think anyone can deny that. I can totally see why people would prefer Taker/Trips though mainly because of the atmosphere around it and if you get emotionally involved in a wrestling match enough, the quality of the actual wrestling can kinda take a backseat and the match will still be phenomenal. I'll use Savage/Warrior from Mania as an example seeing as it's kinda topical with Savage's death and the comparison to Taker/Trips. Sure it isn't anywhere as technically as good as Christian/Orton for example but the spectacle of it puts it above a match which is purely great for the wrestling quality of it. I don't really think you can compare Taker/Trips with Christian/Orton on anything bar personal preference.*


----------



## reDREDD

Instead of using ratings cant we just explain what we enjoyed in the match and if we liked it or not?

Also, I still think Savage vs Warrior is one of the greatest matches in history. It set the tone for every 'epic' match to come in the future.


----------



## Goku

Triple H and the Undertaker were fighting for a MUCH bigger cause than Orton and Christian. It was far more unique, the complete breakdown the man behind the Undertaker. The scale of the match and the drama involved are all pros for that match.

Christian and Orton was more traditional, about the World Heavyweight Champion, specifically Christian's short lived dream of being Champion. Both matches had their own consequences, but at this point in the feud, Christian and Orton are yet to outdo Hunter and Undertaker.

And yes, Savage vs. Warrior is one of the great predecessors of the WWE epic style main events.


----------



## seabs

*Savage/Warrior was and still is the pinnacle for WWE "epic" main event style matches. If someone did the same match in ROH today it would be most likely suck so bad. Only WWE could ever create an atmopshere like that.*


----------



## Rickey

redeadening said:


> Instead of using ratings cant we just explain what we enjoyed in the match and if we liked it or not?


Sure, the main thing I liked about the Christian/Orton match was the fact that it was not only a good "wrasslin" match but there was some story telling there too which makes me interested more in the next encounter(Which hopefully is saved until Summer Slam to give Christian a big victory) Story elements that I enjoyed:

1. Christian's fake out on Orton, remembering that that's how he lost the championship in the first place.

2. Orton's showing "pity" on Christian by not punting him in the head which could have easily lost him the match but he still ended up winning. This interests me because I'm wondering if Christian will bring up in a promo that Orton has lost his "vicious side" building up to the next encounter.

3. Christian pushing Orton away at the end of the match and then shaking his hand and hugging him. Glad there was no heel turn, I didn't want to see him heel in that match. The element of "will he turn or not" during the match was there too.

4. Christian calling for the spear, the fans getting behind him. It gets reversed! Then he hits it out of nowhere!(The only negative about this is I hope they don't keep doing call backs to Edge, Christian's first title run was all about Edge let Christian have a main event run without mentioning Edge at all.)

Christian vs. Orton III(hopefully at Summer Slam) has a lot of build behind it, and it's probably the most interesting feud going on now in the WWE. I like that's it's a friendly rivalry._(Shaemus, Henry, Rhodes, Barrett are all heels on Smackdown so I think they need another top face besides Orton, seems too early for DB or Big Zeke to get pushed to that level. I really want Christian to get a good face title run instead of turning.)_

On the flip side I didn't even buy into the HHH/Taker story at WM27, I felt it was rushed weeks before the match and I just didn't care as much as most people did. Started getting really uninterested after 3 pedigrees and 1 tombstone lead to obvious kick outs. MOTN on that ppv, glad I didn't pay for it though.


----------



## SuperDuperDragon

Honestly, I've been digging WWE quite a bit lately, its pretty much the only wrestling I have been able to catch but I enjoy it.


----------



## Sunglasses

*WWE Over the Limit 2011 - WHC Match: Randy Orton (c) vs. Christian - ****+*

Ortons best match for a long time. Even better than his fight with Punk, I think.


----------



## D'Angelo

Over the Limit
Randy Orton v Christian - WHC
****
Great chemistry, back and forth for 15+ minutes.


----------



## peachchaos

Do I really want to watch a WWE match featuring a guy that I loathe (Orton) and someone I've always felt was incredibly overrated (Christian)? Might give it a go, these reviews are all extremely positive.


----------



## Bubz

peachchaos said:


> Do I really want to watch a WWE match featuring a guy that I loathe (Orton) and someone I've always felt was incredibly overrated (Christian)? Might give it a go, these reviews are all extremely positive.


Seriously give it a watch, it is indeed Ortons best match ever and Christian proves he is great.


----------



## Corey

bubz123 said:


> Seriously give it a watch, *it is indeed Ortons best match ever* and Christian proves he is great.


I wouldn't exactly go that far, but yeah, great match.


----------



## Rickey

peachchaos said:


> Do I really want to watch a WWE match featuring a guy that I loathe (Orton) and someone I've always felt was incredibly overrated (Christian)? Might give it a go, these reviews are all extremely positive.


I hope you didn't read my post above it'll ruin some things about the match for you.


----------



## seancarleton77

Christian vs. Orton was very good, wouldn't call it great, though some of the fake outs and counters were great. Would love to have seen Christian kick out of the RKO once, but I see why they didn't do that. Captain Charisma must turn heel in a vicious way in the near future. Then we can get 2 out of 3 Falls or 3 Stages of Hell to end the feud. By the way I told my friend it would be stupid for Orton to even tease the punt as he is facing another face and he went for it and "BOOOOO", other than that mistake the match was pretty much as good as it could be with the time given to it.


----------



## sXsCanadianFansXs

@ Seabs:
Not quite sure what you're questionning. In any event, to clarify, I do not think Daniels puts in as much effort into his matches unless he's with Davey. Basically, Daniels seems extra motivated when he's in the ring with Richards and "rises" to his level (of effort, wrestling ability, etc.).

And to those saying it's Orton's best match ever...
Are you forgetting Orton vs. Foley at Backlash?


----------



## Chismo

redeadening said:


> Also, I still think Savage vs Warrior is one of the greatest matches in history. It set the tone for every 'epic' match to come in the future.


Hogan/Andre did that.


----------



## topper1

redeadening said:


> Instead of using ratings cant we just explain what we enjoyed in the match and if we liked it or not?
> 
> Also, I still think Savage vs Warrior is one of the greatest matches in history. It set the tone for every 'epic' match to come in the future.


No I think a lot of us like ratings.

Thats pure nonsense.


----------



## Bubz

sXsCanadianFansXs said:


> @ Seabs:
> Not quite sure what you're questionning. In any event, to clarify, I do not think Daniels puts in as much effort into his matches unless he's with Davey. Basically, Daniels seems extra motivated when he's in the ring with Richards and "rises" to his level (of effort, wrestling ability, etc.).
> 
> *And to those saying it's Orton's best match ever...
> Are you forgetting Orton vs. Foley at Backlash?*




Shit, I literally did forget all about that match, my bad. Other than that though I can't think of a better one, unless i'm completely forgetting something else lol.


----------



## Corey

bubz123 said:


> Shit, I literally did forget all about that match, my bad. Other than that though I can't think of a better one, unless i'm completely forgetting something else lol.


Ones that come to mind that are Orton/HBK from SSeries '07 and Orton/HHH Last Man Standing from No Mercy '07.


----------



## Goku

JoeRulz said:


> Hogan/Andre did that.


No, Hoagn|Andre set the tone for trash being passed off as epic.


----------



## KingKicks

sXsCanadianFansXs said:


> And to those saying it's Orton's best match ever...
> Are you forgetting Orton vs. Foley at Backlash?


I'd actually forgotten about that. That's still my favourite Orton match as I've got it at ****1/2 but Orton/Christian is second for me.


----------



## topper1

Hohenheim of Light said:


> No, Hoagn|Andre set the tone for trash being passed off as epic.


Kinda like the HHH vs Taker match you talk so highly of where they hit finishers the whole time and stall half of the match EPIC!!!!!!!!!

Hogan slamming Andre is still a highlight 20 years later. Will Taker vs HHH be remembered in 20 years? My guess is no Taker vs HBK overshadows it to much.


----------



## Bubz

Jack Evans 187 said:


> Ones that come to mind that are Orton/HBK from SSeries '07 and Orton/HHH Last Man Standing from No Mercy '07.


Good matches, I think I prefer Orton/Christian over them though but his match with Foley is classic. Can't believe I forgot about it.


----------



## The Drizzle

1. Daisuke Sekimoto (c) vs Ikuto Hidaka - (ZERO-1 - 01/01/11) ****3/4
2. TKG48 (Munenori Sawa & Sanshiro Takagi) vs. Kengo Mashimo & Madoka - DDT/Union Pro (1/3/11) ****1/2
3. Taichi vs. Madoka - NJPW NEVER 6 Road To The Super Junior 2 Days Tournament Block B Final (4/8/11) ****1/4
4. Makoto & TAJIRI vs. Hajime Ohara & Jessica Love vs. Lin Bairon & Michael Kovac - Ladder Match SMASH 17 (5/3/11) ****
5. Christian vs. Randy Orton (c) - Over The Limit (5/22/11) ****

Just pure ratings, they're all awesome, though putting Orton in a top 5 anything makes me feel like a fool.  Mostly Japanese Indy, which is awesome.


----------



## Yeah1993

I still think the April 06 Smackdown match w/ Rey is the best Orton match. Maybe top 10 WWE for the decade as well. #12 at worst.


----------



## reDREDD

topper1 said:


> Kinda like the HHH vs Taker match you talk so highly of where they hit finishers the whole time and stall half of the match EPIC!!!!!!!!!
> 
> Hogan slamming Andre is still a highlight 20 years later. Will Taker vs HHH be remembered in 20 years? My guess is no Taker vs HBK overshadows it to much.


Errrrrrr yeah, the match was nothing like that.

Hogan vs Andre was essentially a guy who cant wrestle trying to put on a decent match with a guy who cant move.


----------



## Chismo

redeadening said:


> Errrrrrr yeah, the match was nothing like that.
> 
> Hogan vs Andre was essentially a guy who cant wrestle trying to put on a decent match with a guy who cant move.


But you said 'epic'. Hogan/Andre was epic.


----------



## topper1

redeadening said:


> Errrrrrr yeah, the match was nothing like that.
> 
> Hogan vs Andre was essentially a guy who cant wrestle trying to put on a decent match with a guy who cant move.


Huh? What were you watching?? They didn't spam finishers and lay around half the match  I must of saw something different. Why I waste my time talking about this subpar match I will never know.

Whatever Hogan vs Andre was me you and a whole lot of people are still talking about it 25 years later.


----------



## seabs

*There's a strong case for Orton/Christian being Orton's best performance. Orton/HBK from SS 07 and Foley from Backlash 04 were both better matches but not better Orton performances. HBK match was the HBK show and Orton offered very little, Foley match not so much but he's working a big WWE style hardcore match with Mick Foley, hard to go wrong really.*


----------



## reDREDD

JoeRulz said:


> But you said 'epic'. Hogan/Andre was epic.


the crowd made it epic. The buildup, the atmosphere. The men in that ring. That being said, what they did in the ring was godawful. Asides from the slam nobody remembers crap from that match. (why the fuck did Hogan even THINK of hitting a piledriver?). Its pretty damn dull. No hidden story or anything. I will give it massive respect in terms of atmosphere and the crowd, but nothing they did in the ring is worth noting. For God's sake Andre only took a single bump. It was a major slam, but thats all.



topper1 said:


> Huh? What were you watching?? They didn't spam finishers and lay around half the match  I must of saw something different. Why I waste my time talking about this subpar match I will never know.
> 
> Whatever Hogan vs Andre was me you and a whole lot of people are still talking about it 25 years later.


Would you rather watch Unbreakable Joe vs AJ vs Daniels? Or maybe Kurt vs AJ January 4 or Jeff vs Kurt? Or is the concept of selling epic moves or finishers largely pointless?

By your astonishing logic, Taker vs Shawn HIAC is essentially an episode of Tom and Jerry with more shots to the skull. Or Blanchard vs Magnum I Quit was just two ******** pinning each other down trying to stab each other while screaming.

Ofcourse Hogan vs Andre is a bigger match. It changed history. That doesnt make it the BETTER match though does it? I saw it twice and that was more than enough. Meanwhile Savage vs Steamboat I pretty much have it memorised from how often Ive seen it


----------



## topper1

I just perfer not watch any TNA and go watch Misawa vs Kawada or a Bryan Danielson match.

With my amazing logic I can see HHH vs Taker was subpar because they did jack shit other then hit a big move then rest for 2 mins and repeat this process over and over and over again the whole match. It has nothing going for it other then telling a decent story and being at WM the in ring action was subpar.


----------



## Goku

topper1 said:


> Kinda like the HHH vs Taker match you talk so highly of where they hit finishers the whole time and stall half of the match EPIC!!!!!!!!!


No.



> Hogan slamming Andre is still a highlight 20 years later. Will Taker vs HHH be remembered in 20 years? My guess is no Taker vs HBK overshadows it to much.


So?


----------



## sXsCanadianFansXs

topper1 said:


> I just perfer not watch any TNA and go watch Misawa vs Kawada or a Bryan Danielson match.
> 
> With my amazing logic I can see HHH vs Taker was subpar because they did jack shit other then hit a big move then rest for 2 mins and repeat this process over and over and over again the whole match. It has nothing going for it other then *telling a decent story and being at WM* the in ring action was subpar.


Atmosphere makes a huge difference.
A good match at WM becomes very good while a great one becomes an all-time classic.

With that said, Taker/HHH is merely "good" but the atmosphere of it pushes it to around **** for me.
I hate to open up a big can of worms and veer the thread off track, but what do you guys think about Austin/Rock at WM18? Can star ratings even work for that bout? If so, what's it rated for you?

EDIT: Hogan/Rock, duh.


----------



## Bubz

sXsCanadianFansXs said:


> Atmosphere makes a huge difference.
> A good match at WM becomes very good while a great one becomes an all-time classic.
> 
> With that said, Taker/HHH is merely "good" but the atmosphere of it pushes it to around **** for me.
> I hate to open up a big can of worms and veer the thread off track, but what do you guys think about Austin/Rock at WM18? Can star ratings even work for that bout? If so, what's it rated for you?


You mean Hogan/Rock I presume? The atmosphere is unmatched, the crowd going completely ape shit for Hogan like that was a sight to behold and something we will never see again. The in ring action wasn't much to write home about, but at that time it was so good seeing Hogan in a WWE ring, let alone against The Rock, that I didn't even think about it. I actually watched it again not long ago and it is still very enjoyable but only because of the crowd reactions and The Rock and Hogans reactions to it. If I was putting a star rating on it, probably around ***1/2 just for the atmosphere.


----------



## The Drizzle

Yeah, I agree. I'd even say that matches like Hogan/Rock and Hogan/Andre get SUCH a positive reaction that they become iconic, and go above the traditional star ratings. So technically it's wrong to say Hogan/Andre, Hogan/Rock were ***** matches, because they just weren't any way you slice it. But on a spectacle scale they get super high marks, and that was more important to them anyway going in.

Don't see how Taker/Trips would fit in that conversation though. The crowd was hot, but it wasn't "iconic" by any stretch. Just like my man said above me. Finish spamming + resting is no epic encounter to this viewer. Same as his last two WM matches with HBK except everyone isn't all over HHH's cock like they are HBK.


----------



## reDREDD

So now intricate storytelling and genuine emotion is just 'spamming finishers?'


----------



## The Drizzle

redeadening said:


> So now intricate storytelling and genuine emotion is just 'spamming finishers?'


No, doing 3+ finishers each and not doing much of anything else (Because they can't.) is "spamming finishers. Just a harmless spot fest, nothing more. Intricate storytelling? :lmao I hope you're not talking about any of Taker's WM matches. 'Cause that didn't happen in any of them.


----------



## antoniomare007

*Hiroshi Tanahashi vs Yugi Nagata - "New Dimension ~Pray, Hope, Power~"*

Stop arguing over the same shit and watch this match . This two always have amazing matches against each other and this is no exeption. A true battle for control for over 30 minutes with a great crowd (can't remember the last time a japanese crowd was this split over their favorite) and story. Nagata should win an award for best performance or something. I also always love when I buy into nearfalls even if I know the finish

Maybe I will change my mind after a second view but if this is not my Match of The Year at the moment is pretty damn close to it.


----------



## Nervosa

redeadening said:


> So now intricate storytelling and genuine emotion is just 'spamming finishers?'


This is funny because it pretends the match had a story.

Emotion, maybe, but even bad movies display emotion, and usually too much.

But at the end of the day, no control session, no comeback, no story.


----------



## CM Skittle

The Drizzle said:


> Intricate storytelling? I hope you're not talking about any of Taker's WM matches. 'Cause that didn't happen in any of them.


Now THIS is dumb. I love it when people make fun of something someone else said and end up making themselves look even worse, lol.


----------



## Rickey

The Drizzle said:


> Intricate storytelling? :lmao I hope you're not talking about any of Taker's WM matches. 'Cause that didn't happen in any of them.


I'd say against Michaels at WM26 did. Not only was it build up for a year but little things like Shawn's throat slash and slap which lead to the Taker's jumping tombstone really added to it. 

edit: even WM25 and Taker's shocked reaction when Shawn kicked out of the tombstone. 

Shawn is one of the best storytellers in the ring.
---
Anyway yeah the story seemed so forced for Taker/HHH, I didn't feel like HHH really WANTED the win as much as Shawn did. Even the build up only got interesting when Shawn came out 2 weeks before Mania and basically said "You can't win" to HHH. "The last outlaw" story came out of nowhere and I didn't really have time to care honestly. The fact that Shawn put his career on the line at WM26 made me care so much more about that match up, HHH challenging Taker held no weight to me really so it was hard for me to really get excited and jump outta my seat for the kickouts in that match. Even when HHH gave Taker the tombstone and 3 pedigrees, I was like "Yeah he's kicking out." I never had a reason to care for real. 

Good match though,


----------



## Goku

The level of posting in this thread is astounding.


----------



## Rickey

Hohenheim of Light said:


> The level of posting in this thread is astounding.


Thanks :side:


----------



## seancarleton77

Claudio Castagnoli vs. El Generico didn't have near the build of Taker vs. Triple H(in fact it had hardly any build), though it did a much better job of drawing the educated fan into it than any Triple H match that didn't feature Shawn Michaels or a gimmick ever did. Hell Generico vs. Claudio was the best instance of selling and leg work in years. Match of the year so far.


----------



## topper1

antoniomare007 said:


> *Hiroshi Tanahashi vs Yugi Nagata - "New Dimension ~Pray, Hope, Power~"*
> 
> Stop arguing over the same shit and watch this match .


Exactly what I did

Tanahashi vs Nagata **** 1/2 - **** 3/4

Amazing match that keep me interested for 35 mins with an awesome crowd. Perhaps there best match together but I would need to watch 4 - 13 - 07 again before being sure. Had Nagata sold the leg a little better and had they worked the leg a little better into the finish I might of gone the full 5.

My MOTY so far I believe.

Tanahashi is on fire this year as is NJPW.


----------



## antoniomare007

yeah, it's been a long ass time since I watched a singles match that had me hooked for 30+ minutes.


----------



## FITZ

Seabs said:


> *There's a strong case for Orton/Christian being Orton's best performance. Orton/HBK from SS 07 and Foley from Backlash 04 were both better matches but not better Orton performances. HBK match was the HBK show and Orton offered very little, Foley match not so much but he's working a big WWE style hardcore match with Mick Foley, hard to go wrong really.*


Orton was good in his match with Foley but that match is really all about Foley's performance. He basically made himself 10 years younger in that match. 



Nervosa said:


> This is funny because it pretends the match had a story.
> 
> Emotion, maybe, but even bad movies display emotion, and usually too much.
> 
> But at the end of the day, no control session, no comeback, *no story*.


lol. You can say you don't like the match but saying it didn't have a story is just stupid.


----------



## Corey

*ROH - Manhattan Mayhem IV
*
*Pure Rules Match*
Davey Richards vs. Christopher Daniels - ****1/4
_Brilliant, brilliant match. Everything Daniels has done this year has been great but I even thought Davey stepped his game up in this one. Fantastic transitions from move to move, great use of the ropes to integrate submissions towards the end, and some really cool spots thrown in. I liked that we didn't see any ridiculous Superman-esque kickouts from Davey or a bunch of no selling either. His botch at the end was funny more than anything, and in no way should overshadow the 20 minutes of top notch wrestling we saw before it. One of my personal favorites from this year._

*ROH World Championship*
Roderick Strong(c) vs. Eddie Edwards - ****1/4
_The first few minutes of this were weird, felt like a feeling out process between two guys who you could tell haven't faced each other before. But once they eased in it became really fucking intense and fun to watch. Lots and lots of chops and more of that unplanned blood ROH has had a lot of this year. The last couple minutes of this are the most exciting thing I've seen from any company this year. Once Truth hit the ring and got booted inn the face, you knew somethin real good was about to go down. And that it did._


----------



## Bubz

seancarleton77 said:


> Claudio Castagnoli vs. El Generico didn't have near the build of Taker vs. Triple H(in fact it had hardly any build), though it did a much better job of drawing the educated fan into it than any Triple H match that didn't feature Shawn Michaels or a gimmick ever did. Hell Generico vs. Claudio was the best instance of selling and leg work in years. Match of the year so far.


Completely agree. I had Eddie/Roddy above it on first watch but having re-watched both Claudio/Generico is clearly the superior match.


----------



## sXsCanadianFansXs

Castagnoli vs. Generico is fucking wonderful.

With a few more minutes, I'd have gone *****.
As it stands, a fantastic match with great performances from both guys.


----------



## Kun10

It always amuses me the way people look down on a match like Taker-HHH as if it is some primitive form of wrestling when it's they who cannot understand the story.

If they used all those finishers because they had to then why the dive-over-the-ropes? Why the spinebuster through the announce table? Why the backdrop OFF the announce table? Spots that looked like they killed each guy. I mean really, why didn't they just throw in a few more pedigrees/tombstones since that was ALL they could do?

Also, I never knew having a control session was a necessity when performing a good wrestling match.


----------



## Nervosa

Kun10 said:


> It always amuses me the way people look down on a match like Taker-HHH as if it is some primitive form of wrestling when it's they who cannot understand the story.
> 
> If they used all those finishers because they had to then why the dive-over-the-ropes? Why the spinebuster through the announce table? Why the backdrop OFF the announce table? Spots that looked like they killed each guy. I mean really, why didn't they just throw in a few more pedigrees/tombstones since that was ALL they could do?
> 
> Also, I never knew having a control session was a necessity when performing a good wrestling match.


Yeah, it is. Find me a match that has a good story, but no control session. I have yet to see it.

Also, I don't know if you understand the concept of leveling moves, but why do you think they used the finishers AFTER all the spots you mentioned? Because they built up the finishers as the meat of the match, and presented them as bigger moves than the spots you mentioned, which espeically failed for the pedigree, which wasn't a believable finish no matter how many times he did it. 

Besides, I think you are arguing the wrong point. We're not saying they spammed JUST finishers, were saying they spammed big moves (including the finishers) among other spots, and then just lied around without stringing it together in a story. 

In other words, we 'understand' the match fine....we just think spamming big moves and lying around with no workover or comeback is a horrible way to tell it.


----------



## antoniomare007

Nervosa said:


> In other words, we 'understand' the match fine....we just think spamming big moves and lying around with no workover or comeback is a horrible way to tell it.


that's very different from saying a match didn't have a story *shrugs*


----------



## topper1

I say we all forget about that subpar match and watch Nagata vs Tanahashi like me and antonio did.


----------



## antoniomare007

everyone is gonna be happier once they watch that match


----------



## dk4life

HHH Vs taker this match is alright, but storyline??? Really??? Triple H in his promo's say he will die trying...he tapped the f*ck out, how is that die trying? honestly, he walked out, those words "I'm going to die trying", in the promo I think he did the week before mania, mean he should have left it all in the ring, if he had the strength to tap out, he still had something in him to do more. It was spot, then rest spot then rest, no where near what I was expecting, then again I was expecting much more from mania anyway...Rant over!

No new matches to add to my MOTYC, I'm waiting for my ROH DVD's with some PWG to arrive and just ordered the 16 Caret Gold aswell, I just wanted to add my 2 cents, can we get over that match now?


----------



## Caponex75

TelkEvolon said:


> I think it is VERY easy to write story into a match. Adding expressions, thoughts and using wordplay to make it seem like a big deal, another person could come along and write out Triple H vs The Undertaker as a very dull match.
> 
> A creative writing piece is a terrible example. The story is as good as you make it.
> 
> 
> That's not a knock on the great story you wrote out, but you could make Triple H vs Randy Orton from WrestlMania 25 sound just as good.


Thing is, none of what I put wasn't in the match. Every reaction, every piece of body language, every facial, and every expression was IN that match. I don't modify stories unless I get them fully. 



> It is unbelievable that you think substituting the names can make this comparable to any of the Kobashi/Misawa matches. The worst part of it is that one of the best things about the Kobashi/Misawa matches was the number one thing that this match was lacking: any considerable control (and therefore storytelling) whatsoever.


I changed names so people could understand what they are unrighteously judging. And control segments don't = Storytelling. One of my favorite Roderick Strong matches against Erick Stevens at Respect is Earned II hardly had what I call a control segment. With that being said, what do you count the last five minutes of Taker/HHH? That fed us more of a story than any other match this year(Haven't seen Nagata vs. Tanahashi). 



> There was a desperate exchange of moves, lying around, pointless repeated counters (that actually didn’t work early in the match, but then suddenly they’re affective) then, about 10 minutes too late, Trips finally gets control, goes all out with a lot of nearfalls that weren’t even kinda believable since taker hadn’t had a comeback, and then Taker wins out of nowhere with an incredibly sloppy submission that he basically had to re-do mid move.


Lying around? These two did more in the first five minutes then most wrestlers do in a whole twenty.....it's called SELLING. ESPECIALLY after getting hit with moves that have 99% kill ratings. Taker didn't need a comeback since it made no sense with the story whatsoever. HHH is better than him. Period. He isn't "the bitch" Shawn Michaels who traded with Taker and lost. He is "The Man" HHH who if Taker trades bombs with, HHH will live past. 



> Another ridiculous comparison is the one between repeated Tiger Drivers to repeated Pedigrees. not only have Pedigrees been kicked out many times in history, there is another HUGE difference: when Misawa hit a second Tiger driver, people thought it was over. After Trips' second Pedigree, no one believed it as a finish for a second. And why? Because Taker hadn’t had enough control, at any point, for that to be the finish. A finish there would have buried Taker without him having had any control, or comeback, or anything. No fan in the world could have thought that THAT was how they were going to end it: without Taker getting considerable offensive control. In other words……horrible story telling.


Pedigree is kicked out of rarely and mean rarely. Outside of Taker, Batista and Hardy are the only guys who have even kicked straight out of one in the last six years and that is it. Pedigree has a higher murder rate than any other move in the WWE outside of the obvious Tombstone. Plus you just horribly missed the point of that write up. 

It wasn't because Taker didn't have a control segment that the second fall didn't click(To you), it was because HBK hit him with more Superkicks last year then you see in 1 Young Bucks match and it wasn't enough to put him down. It could be Cena vs. Taker next you and I bet you no one would believe the second F-U would win.


> Topper also had a great point: you ignore all the lying around between moves, making the crowd wonder if they can run and get a soda and get back before the guys get up again. That's how dull these times were. It didn't increase the drama, because since neither man had taken considerable, repeated damage without suddenly countering, it never seemed like any of the big spots were actually working.


What? I watched the match live and was glued. AND IT'S CALLED SELLING! Selling is important and especially in the WWE. Taker just hit with HHH with Last Ride, Tombbstone, and tons of horrible $#1t in the beginning......HHH shouldn't be up running around like he just snorted some Gatorade. When HHH hits Taker with something or vice-versa, nether man should be able to follow up immediately. 


> You’re saying Trips sold the arm, which is just ridiculous. Not only was the arm never targeted by any moves from Taker, Trips didn’t even act like it was hurt. Now you’re just making shit up. Even if he was selling it somewhere I overlooked, he shouldn’t be, because he didn’t take any damage to it. Not really a problem though, since he WASN’T SELLING IT. That was never even a storyline in the match. You’re the first person to even mention it on any analysis I’ve ever seen.


What rule is this and I want to read this. 04-20-91. Look up that All Japan match where Taue simply just injuries himself performing a move and he sells it the whole way. This is all actually before Kawada even freaking realizes it and starts working on the leg. Now HHH didn't sell it fantastically but he does constantly remind you that his left arm is hurt and or slightly injured. Don't make anything up if it isn't in the match. In fact, I think he legitmatly starts selling it when he slingshots Taker into the barricade. You can see him favor his arm a little more when he gets back dropped off the table for further evidence.



> Telk is right: you wrote a story into a match that didn’t tell one. Congrats.


No story. Facts are facts. Now I'll address whatever I feel is nesscary because I'm lazy and don't feel like going through everything

1. I agree with the chokeslam. I thought it was stupid and really was silly. However, I understand why it was there.

2. Just because you don't get the story doesn't mean there isn't a story. This goes with Shane Hagadorn interference in Tyler/Richards last year as well. That was actually important as $#it actually and the match needed it to fulfill the story.

3. HHH was trying to catch him with a Superplex which Taker slipped out of and Last Rided him. Reminder that this is right after Taker kicked out of the Pedigree. HHH's frustrations just caught the better of him. Seen this plenty of times and in fact, Danielson does the same little spot when he kicks out of something big(Except with the Super Back Suplex rather than a Last Ride ~_~).

Sum it up, if you just don't like the match then that is fine by me. However, show me the car fax when you deny the obvious elements of a fantastic match.


Oh and a a couple things I want to ask:

Am I the only one that noticed Claudio was the guy that fell in his match against Richards? >_> Just confusing when the other gets blammed for it even though if he did, he would of fell through the table. C'mon people.

Am I the only one that loved the fact Richards messed up in his match against Daniels. I thought it told a better story then that repeat finish from the previous night. Everything was going exactly Daniels way from hitting the illegal punch, somehow screwing Richards out of his rope break, avoiding Richards murdering him with the Death Valley Driver on the apron like he did him, and Richards messing up his epic finisher yet his arrogance screws him. I thought Daniels reaction when the botch happened and post match made that actually fit well. Richards selling was great as well.


----------



## Chismo

Tanahashi vs. Nagata *****1/2*

Fantastic match, MOTY in Japan. Could've been better if Nagata sold his leg little better and little longer, that's my major problem with him overall (same as KENTA).


----------



## Bubz

Yes, it was Claudio who fell off the rope, not Davey.


----------



## starship.paint

Guess I'm very late to the party...

Orton v Christian ****1/2

Red-hot atmosphere, excellent pace, cool counters and the sunset flip spot playing on their last match was awesome as well.

I'd say this is WWE's MOTY so far, though the SD Elimination Chamber gets the same rating from me. My only gripe is that Orton didn't really get any nearfalls because he only ends matches with an RKO and we know one RKO does the job. Christian had the sunset flip and spear as believable near-falls for me (though Vince was never going to let Christian win) Would like for Christian to have kicked out and lost to a second RKO afterwards.


----------



## Nervosa

Let me first start by saying that antoniomare’s correction addressing me in his last post was absolutely right, and I was arguing incorrectly. I should not say that the match has no story because in all honesty, I don’t really mean that. In fact, the ATTEMPTED story was perhaps what made me rate the match as HIGH as ***1/2. 

What I SHOULD be saying is that I think the story was told very poorly.



Caponex75 said:


> Thing is, none of what I put wasn't in the match. Every reaction, every piece of body language, every facial, and every expression was IN that match. I don't modify stories unless I get them fully.


Yeah, but you exaggerated it to fit your means, as well. The arm work did not exist (I’ll address this later) There was no workover, or comeback, which every single meeting between Kobashi and Misawa had. Anyone can say ‘this move = this move’ and make matches sound similar. Heck, I can Jenna/Sharmel’s botched slaps are the ‘firm punches in the corner’ from Taker/Michaels, but it doesn’t mean the matches had anything similar in their story whatsoever. Kobashi and Misawa never had a match where they had NO workover or comeback where they and just hit hardcore spots on each other over and over. It never happened. 




> I changed names so people could understand what they are unrighteously judging. And control segments don't = Storytelling. One of my favorite Roderick Strong matches against Erick Stevens at Respect is Earned II hardly had what I call a control segment.


You’re entitled to your opinion, but for me, that match PALED in comparison their match at FIP: Redefined. In that match, Stevens’ comeback was made possible by a workover session. They also did this in their Man Up match, which I also thought was better. 

For me, the comeback is the most important thing in a match (besides the finish.) For a comeback to happen effectively a control session is absolutely necessary. Especially in a match of this importance where you are planning such big spots, selling in groups is a must-have to believe that these spots are working. All you keep talking about is how well they sold the stuff by lying around: but how good is the selling if Taker takes a supermove, but it STILL isn’t enough to get Hunter any kind of control? To me, this is a bad storytelling element that TAKES AWAY from the big spots. 



> With that being said, what do you count the last five minutes of Taker/HHH? That fed us more of a story than any other match this year(Haven't seen Nagata vs. Tanahashi).


What, taker botching his application of his submission, which he grabbed out of nowhere with no comeback for no reason? Yeah, great story, there. 

I will say (and have said already) that I LOVED the storytelling that Trips did AFTER the move was applied, but that doesn’t even sort of make up for how badly the story was told for the first 25 minutes.





> Lying around? These two did more in the first five minutes then most wrestlers do in a whole twenty.....it's called SELLING.


This is my point. If they were selling properly, there’s no way they SHOULD have been able to pull off those spots without gaining some kind of control one way or another.



> ESPECIALLY after getting hit with moves that have 99% kill ratings. Taker didn't need a comeback since it made no sense with the story whatsoever. HHH is better than him. Period. He isn't "the bitch" Shawn Michaels who traded with Taker and lost. He is "The Man" HHH who if Taker trades bombs with, HHH will live past.


I think Taker does indeed need a comeback, because it makes the streak, and all who failed to break it, look weaker if he doesn’t actually look threatening. 

And guess what? Taker traded bombs……and HHH did NOT live past. He lost. And the end of the day, Taker won the ‘trading bombs,’ so even your written-in story doesn’t make sense. 



> Pedigree is kicked out of rarely and mean rarely. Outside of Taker, Batista and Hardy are the only guys who have even kicked straight out of one in the last six years and that is it. Pedigree has a higher murder rate than any other move in the WWE outside of the obvious Tombstone.


Yeah, but why are we limiting it to six years? People can still remember Angle, Rock, Austin, Kane, RVD, HBK and others kicking out of this in the past. It’s been done….to death. Comparing it to what the Tiger Driver was in the 90s was almost insulting.



> It wasn't because Taker didn't have a control segment that the second fall didn't click(To you), it was because HBK hit him with more Superkicks last year then you see in 1 Young Bucks match and it wasn't enough to put him down. It could be Cena vs. Taker next you and I bet you no one would believe the second F-U would win.


And that is a BAD THING. It destroys the story of what the move is supposed to do. You are proving my point for me.



> What? I watched the match live and was glued.


This can be the only reason I see such a flimsy defense being attempted here. We all have seen a match live and thought it was gold, but sometimes you have to see the forest for the trees.



> AND IT'S CALLED SELLING! Selling is important and especially in the WWE. Taker just hit with HHH with Last Ride, Tombbstone, and tons of horrible $#1t in the beginning......HHH shouldn't be up running around like he just snorted some Gatorade. When HHH hits Taker with something or vice-versa, nether man should be able to follow up immediately.


So he shouldn’t be up and running on Gaotrade, but he should IMMEDIATELY regain control? You say control session aren’t necessary in order to sell a big move, but lying around, getting up, and then immediately hitting your own move is ok? That’s BAD selling, not good. Good selling would be Taker regaining control after hitting his moves, or vice versa.

If Taker had hit a big move and Trips had lied around for Taker to have a control session, I would have no problem with that. But the fact is that after only 10 minutes with NO CONTROL SESSION in order to sell the moves, BOTH GUYS are lying around…EVEN THE GUY WHO DELIVERED THE LAST MOVE. Why should the guy who just hit his big move by lying around?



> 04-20-91. Look up that All Japan match where Taue simply just injuries himself performing a move and he sells it the whole way. This is all actually before Kawada even freaking realizes it and starts working on the leg. Now HHH didn't sell it fantastically but he does constantly remind you that his left arm is hurt and or slightly injured. Don't make anything up if it isn't in the match. In fact, I think he legitmatly starts selling it when he slingshots Taker into the barricade. You can see him favor his arm a little more when he gets back dropped off the table for further evidence.


I can’t be 100% sure we are thinking of the same match, but if its what I’m thinking of, the difference here is obvious, and again, you said it yourself. Eventually…….KAWADA WORKED THE LEG.

Taker never worked the arm, so it didn’t play into the storyline. Even if Trips DID injure his own arm, Taker certainly never noticed it, and it never played into the story whatsoever. You saying it did is just an example of you putting something in the match that just was not there. Yes, there may have been an injury, but it certainly wasn’t part of the story they were telling.



> 2. Just because you don't get the story doesn't mean there isn't a story. This goes with Shane Hagadorn interference in Tyler/Richards last year as well. That was actually important as $#it actually and the match needed it to fulfill the story.


You and Antonio were absolutely right: there is a story, and I was wrong to say it wasn’t there. That said, the story was told horribly, for reasons mentioned here and other places.

That said, Hagadron’s interference was completely pointless. What did it tell us? That Davey wanted to win clean and that Tyler was desperate? Thanks; we all knew that before the match started. It was Pearce trying to put storylines above action…again. Sinclair should have DQ’d Tyler right there, in all fairness…that’s how stupid it was.



> 3. HHH was trying to catch him with a Superplex which Taker slipped out of and Last Rided him. Reminder that this is right after Taker kicked out of the Pedigree. HHH's frustrations just caught the better of him. Seen this plenty of times and in fact, Danielson does the same little spot when he kicks out of something big(Except with the Super Back Suplex rather than a Last Ride ~_~).


I’m really not sure of the comparison you’re making here. Are you talking about the repeated Last Ride corner spots where trips knew the counter the first time but somehow didn’t the second time? If so, how is this like Danielson’s spots? All this spot did was make it look like Taker did in wrong the first time, and that they had to re-do it.



> Sum it up, if you just don't like the match then that is fine by me. However, show me the car fax when you deny the obvious elements of a fantastic match.


Consider your carfax provided.


----------



## seabs

*Prince Devitt, Ryusuke Taguchi & KUSHIDA vs Kota Ibushi, Kenny Omega & Daisuke Sasaki - NJPW 19.04.2011*
_Really enjoyable, high quality action. Yet another addition to the great collection of matches that Devitt and Ibushi have had between each other over the past year or so. Everything still felt fresh and the additions of KUSHIDA and Sasaki added another dimension to the 55/GL feud. There's some really great near falls during the climax between Ibushi and KUSHIDA too. KUSHIDA has a fucking fantastic look and he's really over with the crowd already and looks like a top prospect._

******

*Hiroshi Tanahashi & Yuji Nagata vs Shinsuke Nakamura & Masato Tanaka - NJPW 19.04.2011*
_Jesus christ the Tanahashi/Nakamura exchanges at the start of this match are fucking crazy. Shame that their match never reached anything close to the heights of the opening 5 minutes in this. Man they really brought the hate to each other. Nagata and Tanaka did their own thing too and naturally they did some great stuff. Sucked that after the original Tana/Nakamura exchanges at the start of the match they never really got in the ring together again._

****3/4*

*Shinjiro Otani & Daichi Hashimoto vs Masato Tanaka & Kenta Kakinuma - ZERO-1 16.04.2011*
_This was so fucking enjoyable and I'd be perfectly happy to watch Otani and Daichi teaming together for the rest of my days. Otani's in an insanely great worker in this and he just totally has the crowd in the palm of his hand with everything he does. I love the way Daichi has been booked so far as a rookie who still learning the ropes and gets his ass handed to him whilst he develops. Plus he's so fucking easy to like and get behind which is only helped by how he's booked to have his ass kicked. The best babyfaces to get behind are those that take an ass kicking and you want them so badly to be able to fight back. Daichi has some nice fire to him, great look and his kicks are impressive. The spot where Daichi is in a submission and Otani comes in the ring to urge Daichi over to the ropes whilst working the crowd like a motherfucking king is so awesome. Tanaka's rookie - Kakinuma is really good too and both him and Hashi Jr. look like future superstars for sure. Aftermath with Kakinuma wanting to go so more with Daichi really made it clear how a great a road these two could have coming through the ranks with each other. _

****3/4*


----------



## aaron_mcn92

Mochizuki vs. Daichi:








So uh yeah, a brutally effective way of getting someone over.


Anyways, onto to Tanahashi vs. Nagata. Wasn't too big on it to be honest. Too much of the match felt like they were just taking it in turns to be on offense with very little interesting struggle in between. Yes, both guys had a targeted limb that facilitated many of those transitions, but when the limbwork isn't sold at hardly any other points of the match, it doesn't have nearly the big impact that it should have. Best moment of the match was Nagata slapping Tanahashi to a pulp and taking him off his feet entirely. With the celebrity demeanour that Tanahashi's been carrying there should have been many more moments like that. Also, Nagata's in control for much of the last quarter of the match then Tanahashi does two big moves and wins. Boo. Tanahashi is not the most intelligent worker in the world, but the fans love him and he can normally carry an energetic comeback with a lot of entertainment value. Two moves doesn't cut it.


----------



## Corey

*wXw - Kreuzzug ZXI: Union City*

Chris Hero vs. Zack Sabre Jr. - ****

_Dug the hell out of this match. Everything was basically perfect. Wonderful chain wrestling throughout with some fantastic transitions and crazy submissions. Yeah you know that was a cool sentence. Hero had Sabre wrapped up like a pretzel several times and he would keep fighting out to magically hook an armbar. Psychology was great, Sabre went after not just one arm, but both, and Hero sold them like a champ. When it came time for strikes, and you knew it would, Hero instinctly threw elbows, but continued to sell them and decided to throw kicks instead. The finish came off extremely well and played right into the whole story the match was telling. This is one of those Hero matches when you say to yourself, if he didn't throw so many elbows and wrestled like this every match, there'd be no doubt that everyone would consider him THE best in the world. Fantastic all around._


----------



## topper1

Ill agree with **** for Hero vs Sabre jr.

The final move was sold amazingly well.


----------



## Alan4L

topper1 said:


> Exactly what I did
> 
> Tanahashi vs Nagata **** 1/2 - **** 3/4
> 
> Amazing match that keep me interested for 35 mins with an awesome crowd. Perhaps there best match together but I would need to watch 4 - 13 - 07 again before being sure. Had Nagata sold the leg a little better and had they worked the leg a little better into the finish I might of gone the full 5.
> 
> My MOTY so far I believe.
> 
> Tanahashi is on fire this year as is NJPW.


Pretty much my exact thoughts. Incredible match, if they had only just used the Clover as the finish to play off the legwork, it would have been an easy *****. Nagata should have kicked out of what was the finish and been immediately caught in a Clover. Fight it for over a minute and then do the slow tap. But still, that's like asking for really nice strawberry after having the greatest steak dinner ever.


----------



## seabs

*Daisuke Sekimoto & Yuji Okabayashi vs Yoshihito Sasaki & Shinya Ishikawa - BJW 05.05.2011*
_This isn't to the level of the All Japan tags with Sekimoto and Okabayashi so don't expecting that kind of quality but this is another really great tag match. Poor Isikawa gets the shit body slammed out of him. Sekimoto and Okabayashi are such an awesome pairing and there double teams are incredible, especially the double top rope splash spot and the MEGA suplex. These two flying so gracefully off the top rope is one of my favourite moves atm. It's so beautiful every single time. The match really benefits from an awesome last few minutes where Sekimoto and Sasaki set out to kill each other which results in some really great near falls but nothing too much that it takes away from the match._

******

*Chris Hero vs Zack Sabre Jr. - wXw Kreuzzug ZXI Union City*
_Loved this. I'm a huge fan of catch as catch can sequences at the start of matches and they have an extended period here which is so brilliant. Hero tied Sabre up in the craziest knot that I've ever seen and it's not a case of Hero doing his mat wrestling shtick around Zack because Sabre is equally as impressive. Hero really put Sabre's cross arm breaker over well in the match and made it seem like the real deal. Hero going for an elbow on instinct and then hitting a tame one before going back to selling his elbow was great. It all played off nicely for the finish with Hero still managing to pull out the win but having to resort to using a different tactic as opposed to the elbow strikes. Hopefully ROH give this Hero a run soon when there's nothing left in the Kings' current run where Hero just goes out to look like the best wrestler in the world and has awesome singles matches with everyone. _

*****1/4*


----------



## seabs

*Manabu Nakanishi, Kota Ibsuhi & Kenny Omega vs Shinsuke Nakamura , Jado & Gedo - NJPW 03.04.2011*
_Man this was so enjoyable and really great. I love it when New Japan does mixed tags with Juniors and Heavyweights because the dynamic between the two is usually great, as it is here. Early exchanges between Nakanishi and Jado were awesome and made Jado look awesome and the crowd really got behind Jado being able to stand Nakanishi's chops. Then the Ibushi/Nakamura segment was incredible. Crowd was really hot for this and made it even better. Some of the sequences between Ibushi and Nakamura were incredible. Heat segment is the only down part of the match as it drags a little with nothing too exciting happening. The once Ibushi makes the tag it goes back to insanity land where everyone starts tearing shit up. Ibushi does a double kip up spot to avoid lariats which is incredible. Ibushi and Omega doing their routine adds to any match they're in. Then Nakanishi finally gets back in and ROCKS the house down. He has some awesome counters to Nakamura's running knee and totally has the crowd eating up everything that he does. One of the most enjoyable matches from this year and really top notch quality to go along with it. Man this rocked!_

*****1/4*

_*Gonna have to rewatch Nagata/Tanahashi later this year because it really didn't do much for me which was sad because I'm a big fan of both guys and I was really looking forward to it given the reviews it had been getting. Still thought it was really good, like ***3/4 range perhaps but ... yeah well. Crowd was really hot for it and the climax was brilliant. The limb work by both men was decent I guess but there was no payoff to it and there wasn't really any great long term selling by either man.*_


----------



## Nervosa

Finally saw it, and people are going to be shocked...

Christian vs. Orton
****1/2

Yes, it is not only better than Taker/HHH, it is an entire star better.


For me, this is the best WWE match I've seen since Shawn's retirement match. There are so many little things that made this match so much more than the generic 'big WWE title match' that we seem to get every month. 

Orton tries for control early, using his bread-an-butter chinlocks to establish a slower, early match pace that most certainly suits him. But Christian is incredibly aggressive in the early going, and he almost fakes Orton out into a faster pace than he is used to with his punches and out-of-the-ring dropkick. What I like is that when Christian takes back the early control, he uses chinlocks himself into order to get into Orton's head, and actually gets a decent workover of Orton’s neck. He is also succeeding in gaining a psychological advantage, shown best in Orton’s frustration once he regains control as he begins to just wail on Christian while he’s perched on the top rope, which I thought was an awesome moment. 

Even after the superplex, Orton’s does really well to grab at his neck. The innovative reversals are really excellent in this match, and it feels like it maps out Christian’s gameplan. Christian comes off as having done all his homework here in order to avoid embarrassment, and stalls Orton’s control considerably by constantly being one move ahead. When Orton does gain the upper hand, it is usually not through wrestling, but through all-out clobbering Christian. But whether it is the neckwork or the counters, Christian always seem to end up a step ahead. My one BIG complaint is after taking a lot of moves in a row, Orton actually gets up first and nails an uppercut, similar to the bad chokeslam recovery in the Taker/HHH match. I always when someone TAKING a big mutual spot gets up first, and it was pretty weak here, as well. 

Orton is done trying to wrestle, and just tries to out-punch Christian, almost the only thing that has worked thus far, but even THIS is countered into the first Unprettier attempt. Orton reales he was pretty close to being beaten, and needs time to regroupd: so he gabs the Billy Goat’s Curse out of NOWHERE. I think at this moment a lot of the people who rooted for Orton when the match started switched allegiances, as Christian’s struggle for the ropes was immense. Even after he escapes, Orton takes advantage with several moves targeting Christian’s back. 

This leads right into the RKO fake-out…which was done perfectly and the crowd totally bought into it. When Christian rolled him up afterwards, everyone in the crowd bought it was the finish. Everything you needed to know about the motivations of both men was encapsulated here. Even here, Christian does extremely well to sell his back. This is followed by another excellent counter that Orton uses to get to his ropes DDT. Orton is showing a bit of frustration ,and knows he needs to finish it soon, considering he has struggled to get serious control thusfar. His RKO attempt is blocked by Christian in a way that forces Orton to land on his injured neck, calling all the way back to the early neck work. 

Christian’s almost maniacal call of the spear perfectly expresses the undisputable frustration he has endured, and Orton’s counter only shows his composure. This leads into Orton’s contemplation of the punt, which really pushed this match from good to amazing for me. It seems to me it is very clear that this match is over if Orton follows through on the first attempt, but Christian’s last chance is created when Orton’s hesitates. Orton is again teasing the face/heel dynamic, which was just perfect in this situation. The spear creates Christian’s last big chance, which leads to the struggle for both men’s finishers, where Orton must actually make sure that Christian takes the move in a way he doesn’t see coming. On this day, both guys have scouted each others’ movesets far too well to ever be able hit their movesets conventionally. 

I understand I am rating this high, but for me this is how storytelling ,selling, move leveling, and counters should be used. Orton’s weird mid-match recovery and perhaps a more all-out finish keep this from perfection, but they absolutely used every moment to create something very special here. 

Current MOTY List:
1.	Nakajima vs. Suzuki ****1/2
2.	Soya/Sanada vs. Okabayashi/Sekimoto III ****1/2
3.	Christian vs. Orton ****1/2
4.	Steen vs. Generico ****1/2


----------



## Bubz

Absolutely agree about Christian/Orton, The punt moment is also what elevated the match for me, fucking loved it. Brilliant match and definitely the best WWE match since Taker/Shawn last year.


----------



## seancarleton77

I thought the punt moment was stupid, I was thinking to myself the only way they would ever boo Orton was if he punted Christian and he teased it and the crowd started to turn. Pointless. First match was better, though they were both better than Taker vs. Busted quads.


----------



## Nervosa

seancarleton77 said:


> I thought the punt moment was stupid, I was thinking to myself the only way they would ever boo Orton was if he punted Christian and he teased it and the crowd started to turn. Pointless. First match was better, though they were both better than Taker vs. Busted quads.


You don't think that was on purpose? You don't think they intend to kinda tease the heel side of Orton, here? I felt like they not only wanted Christian to be the babyface of the match, but they wanted the crowd reminded of what an evil SOB Orton is, at his root. To me, that makes the spot much more than pointless.


----------



## The Great Maijin

peoples standards are so low that orton and christian is getting four stars. i dont even do star ratings but i wouldnt give it four stars.


----------



## SuperDuperDragon

The Great Maijin said:


> peoples standards are so low that orton and christian is getting four stars. i dont even do star ratings but i wouldnt give it four stars.


Standards aren't low, people just like what they like buddy. That match fucking ruled IMO.


----------



## FITZ

Nervosa said:


> You don't think that was on purpose? You don't think they intend to kinda tease the heel side of Orton, here? I felt like they not only wanted Christian to be the babyface of the match, but they wanted the crowd reminded of what an evil SOB Orton is, at his root. To me, that makes the spot much more than pointless.


I agree, that spot was brilliant. It kind of caught me off guard though as the way their feud has been booked I've figured that Christian would be the one to end up turning heel because playing by the rules hadn't been working for him.


----------



## topper1

SuperDuperDragon said:


> Standards aren't low, people just like what they like buddy. That match fucking ruled IMO.


Standards are pretty low nowadays someone sees a cool and they start throwing the snow flakes around like candy. Hell even I do now since everyone else does.

It also depends what people consider to be at the top. Assume Misawa vs Kawada is one of the top matches it is clearly more then a * better then Sabre vs Hero which a number of us rated ****+.


----------



## Mr Joe Perfect

MOTYC List 2011 for everything i've watched ****+

1) Undertaker vs Triple H - No Holds Barred - WrestleMania 27 - ****1/2
2) Kotaro Suzuki vs Eddie Edwards - GHC Jr. Heavyweight Championship - NOAH 29.01.2011 - ****1/2
3) Shelton Benjamin & Charlie Haas vs Kings Of Wrestling – ROH SoCal Showdown II - ****1/2
4) American Wolves vs Shelton Benjamin & Charlie Haas – ROH Honor Takes Center Stage Chapter 2 - ****1/2
5) Hiroshi Tanahashi vs Shinsuke Nakamura - IWGP Heavyweight Championship - NJPW 03.05.2011 - ****1/2
6) Kings Of Wrestling vs LAX – ROH Manhattan Mayhem IV - ****1/2
7) Eddie Edwards vs Roderick Strong - ROH World Championship – ROH Manhattan Mayhem IV - ****1/2
8) Eddie Edwards vs Christopher Daniels - 2/3 Falls - ROH TV Championship – ROH 9th Anniversary Show - ****1/4
9) Randy Orton vs Christian - World Heavyweight Championship - Over The Limit 2011 - ****1/4
10) Claudio Castagnoli vs El Generico - PWG World Championship – PWG Kurt RusselReunion II - ****1/4
11) Kings Of Wrestling vs Kevin Steen & Akira Tozawa – PWG DDT4 2011 - ****1/4
12) Davey Richards vs TJ Perkins – ROH SoCal Showdown II - ****1/4
13) Edge vs Rey Mysterio vs Kane vs Wade Barrett vs Drew McIntyre vs Big Show - Elimination Chamber Match - World Heavyweight Championship - Elimination Chamber 2011 - ****1/4
14) Akira Tozawa vs BxB Hulk – DGUSA United We Stand - ****1/4
15) Davey Richards vs Claudio Castagnoli – ROH Defy Or Deny - ****1/4
16) Davey Richards vs Zack Sabre Jr. - wXw 16 Carat Gold Tournament Day 2 - ****1/4
17) Davey Richards vs Roderick Strong – ROH Honor Takes Center Stage Chapter 1 - ****1/4
18) Kevin Steen vs Chris Hero – PWG Kurt RusselReunion II - ****1/4
19) Christian vs Alberto Del Rio - Ladder Match - World Heavyweight Championship - Extreme Rules 2011 - ****
20) Takashi Sugiura vs Giant Bernard - GHC Heavyweight Championship - NOAH 05.03.2011 - ****
21) Roderick Strong vs El Generico - ROH World Championship - ROH SoCal Showdown II - ****
22) Edge vs Dolph Ziggler - World Heavyweight Championship - Royal Rumble 2011 - ****
23) Christopher Daniels vs Eddie Edwards - ROH TV Championship - ROH on HDNet 31.01.2011 - ****
24) Christopher Daniels vs Davey Richards - Pure Wrestling Rules – ROH Manhattan Mayhem IV - ****
25) Young Bucks vs Kevin Steen & Akira Tozawa - DDT4 2011 - ****

26) Eddie Edwards vs Christopher Daniels - ROH World Championship – ROH Honor Takes Center Stage Chapter 1 - ****
27) Christopher Daniels vs Claudio Castagnoli - ROH TV Championship – ROH Only The Strong Will Survive - ****
28) Davey Richards, Shelton Benjamin & Charlie Haas vs Roderick Strong & Kings Of Wrestling – ROH Worlds Greatest - ****
29) El Generico vs Kotaro Suzuki - wXw 16 Carat Gold Tournament Day 1 - ****
30) Young Bucks vs American Wolves – PWG DDT4 2011 - ****
31) Kings Of Wrestling vs Shelton Benjamin & Charlie Haas - ROH World Tag Team Championships – ROH Honor Takes Center Stage Chapter 1 - ****
32) Chris Hero vs TJ Perkins – ROH Defy Or Deny - ****
33) Davey Richards vs Low Ki – PWG Kurt RusselReunion II - ****
34) Masato Yoshino & PAC vs Naruki Doi & Ricochet – DGUSA United: Philly - ****
35) John Cena vs. Randy Orton vs. John Morrison vs. R-Truth vs. CM Punk vs. King Sheamus – Elimination Chamber Match – Elimination Chamber 2011 - ****
36) Briscoes vs All Night Express – ROH Honor Takes Center Stage Chapter 2 - ****
37) Prince Devitt & Ryusuke Taguchi vs Kota Ibushi & Kenny Omega – NJPW 23.01.2011 - ****
38) Masaaki Mochizuki vs YAMATO - Open The Dream Gate Championship - Dragon Gate 05.05.2011 - ****
39) Kings Of Wrestling, Roderick Strong & Christopher Daniels vs Davey Richards, El Generico & Briscoes – ROH Champions vs All Stars - ****
40) Davey Richards vs Chris Hero – ROH Only The Strong Will Survive - ****
41) Davey Richards & Briscoes vs Roderick Strong & Kings Of Wrestling - ROH on HDNet 04.04.2011 - ****
42) Christian vs Randy Orton - World Heavyweight Championship - Smackdown 06.05.2011 - ****
43) Roderick Strong vs El Generico – ROH Honor Takes Center Stage Chapter 2 - ****
44) Bad Intentions vs No Limit - IWGP Tag Team Champions - NJPW 03.05.2011 - ****
45) LDRS Of The New School vs Adam Cole & Kyle O'Reilly - wXw 16 Carat Gold Tournament Day 3 -****
46) Cody Rhodes vs Rey Mysterio - WrestleMania 27 - ****
47) PAC vs Naruki Doi - Open The Brave Gate Championship - Dragon Gate 05.05.2011 - ****
48) Yoshihiro Takayama vs KENTA - NOAH 15.01.2011 - ****
49) Eddie Edwards vs Michael Elgin – ROH Defy Or Deny - ****
50) Takashi Sugiura vs Trevor Murdoch - GHC Heavyweight Championship - NOAH 21.03.2011 - ****​


----------



## seancarleton77

I would say that Christian vs. Orton was much better than Tanahashi vs. Nagata, having said that it's still not past 4 stars.


----------



## smitlick

*ROH - Only The Strong Survive - ROH Title Match*
Roderick Strong vs Jay Briscoe
****


----------



## Spinone

For now my MOTY is Davey/TJP


----------



## Alan4L

topper1 said:


> Standards are pretty low nowadays someone sees a cool and they start throwing the snow flakes around like candy. Hell even I do now since everyone else does.
> 
> It also depends what people consider to be at the top. Assume Misawa vs Kawada is one of the top matches it is clearly more then a * better then Sabre vs Hero which a number of us rated ****+.


haven't seen Hero and Zack but when I watched stuff like old Kawada and Misawa matches I always feel that the don't skew my ratings at all. I have Tana/Nagata at ****3/4. I enjoyed that just as much as all but maybe one Kawada/Misawa match.

I feel that alot of people for whatever reason don't like to acknowledge that modern wrestling can be as good as classic wrestling from the past.


----------



## antoniomare007

*Roderick Strong vs Willie Mack - Card Subject To Change III*

20 minutes of two guys beating the shit out of each other. Although you could clearly tell he was exhausted at the end, Willie Mack IS awesome. 

***3/4-****

*Low Ki vs Akira Tozawa - Card Subject To Change III*

Well, Low Ki said it best: "You know damn well you ain't gonna see that on WWE TV". Expected from this but it was still fun.

***3/4-****


----------



## dele

BJW 4/18/11

Ikkitousen ~Death Match Survivor~ Tournament Final - Combination Death Match

Takashi Sasaki vs Masashi Takeda

**** 1/4

Seeing as it is the end to a month long death match tournament, you knew it was going to get violent. I just didn't think they were going to beat the shit out of each other like they did. Blood everywhere. Takashi and Takeda know how to make everything look like it just may kill them. These two are amazing together in the ring.


----------



## starship.paint

Star ratings are okay but could you guys stop arguing about them, everything is subjective damn it.


----------



## FITZ

Alan4L said:


> haven't seen Hero and Zack but when I watched stuff like old Kawada and Misawa matches I always feel that the don't skew my ratings at all. I have Tana/Nagata at ****3/4. I enjoyed that just as much as all but maybe one Kawada/Misawa match.
> 
> I feel that alot of people for whatever reason don't like to acknowledge that modern wrestling can be as good as classic wrestling from the past.


Agree with you on this 100%. I like the classic stuff but it's not like any of those matches were so good that comparing any match from the last 10 years to it is a terrible crime.




dele said:


> BJW 4/18/11
> 
> Ikkitousen ~Death Match Survivor~ Tournament Final - Combination Death Match
> 
> Takashi Sasaki vs Masashi Takeda
> 
> **** 1/4
> 
> Seeing as it is the end to a month long death match tournament, you knew it was going to get violent. I just didn't think they were going to beat the shit out of each other like they did. Blood everywhere. Takashi and Takeda know how to make everything look like it just may kill them. These two are amazing together in the ring.


That sounds like an absurd tournament. How many guys were in it?




topper1 said:


> Standards are pretty low nowadays someone sees a cool and they start throwing the snow flakes around like candy. Hell even I do now since everyone else does.
> 
> It also depends what people consider to be at the top. Assume Misawa vs Kawada is one of the top matches it is clearly more then a * better then Sabre vs Hero which a number of us rated ****+.


How much better is 1 star? I mean really what are star ratings? There's no formula to calculate them. We just use them to express how much we like a match. What else should we be doing with the ratings? I see a match, I think it's really awesome. It's getting a good star rating. That's really my whole thought process when I rate a match.


----------



## antoniomare007

*Claudio Castagnoli vs Joey Ryan - Card Subject To Change III*

Way better than expected. Joey gets embarrassed trying to wrestle in a clean way so he has go back to his old ways. Claudio is a motherfucking beast though so it wont be easy for Joey.

***3/4-****

*El Generico & Ricochet vs The Young Bucks - Card Subject To Change III*

I kinda missed a good spotfest "PWG style" and was glad that this guys were able to deliver a very entertaining one.

****


----------



## KingKicks

TaylorFitz said:


> How much better is 1 star? I mean really what are star ratings? There's no formula to calculate them. We just use them to express how much we like a match. What else should we be doing with the ratings? *I see a match, I think it's really awesome. It's getting a good star rating. That's really my whole thought process when I rate a match.*


AMEN brother. Couldn't have said it any better myself.


----------



## LowKi

antoniomare007 said:


> *Roderick Strong vs Willie Mack - Card Subject To Change III*
> 
> 20 minutes of two guys beating the shit out of each other. Although you could clearly tell he was exhausted at the end, Willie Mack IS awesome.


Totally agree, Willie is THE star. Can't wait to see him booked in other promotions, why not DGUSA?


----------



## TelkEvolon

LowKi said:


> Totally agree, Willie is THE star. Can't wait to see him booked in other promotions, why not DGUSA?


Please god no!

Keep him contained to PWG and some Cali shows.


----------



## seancarleton77

Tanahashi vs. Nagata struck me as a match that was deliberately trying to be a classic, and that's why it failed. It wasn't fluid enough. It was very good but it went 15 minutes too long. Would have been great in 2006-2007 when Nagata was in his prime, but now it just seemed dragged out. And the only thing Tanahashi sells are tickets.


----------



## dele

TaylorFitz said:


> That sounds like an absurd tournament. How many guys were in it?


It was an 8 man 2 block round robin tournament.


----------



## seancarleton77

LDRS of the New School vs. Cole & O'Reilly from wXw in Philly = ****1/4


----------



## topper1

seancarleton77 said:


> Tanahashi vs. Nagata struck me as a match that was deliberately trying to be a classic, and that's why it failed. It wasn't fluid enough. It was very good but it went 15 minutes too long. Would have been great in 2006-2007 when Nagata was in his prime, but now it just seemed dragged out. And the only thing Tanahashi sells are tickets.


It was great in 07 one of the best IWGP title matches of last decade. 

Tanahashi sold fine in the match if anything Nagata is the one who needed to work on his selling in the recent match. I think you might be letting your hate for Tanahashi get in the way of your eye sight.


----------



## seabs

*Willie Mack vs Roderick Strong - PWG Card Subject To Change III*
_Mack is still noticeable a rookie and has a few common rookie flaws but jesus christ some of the stuff that he can pull out for a guy of his size is insane. That charging lariat in the corner with how he flew into it was incredible and it really looked like he was going through the ropes, no wonder the fans in the front row facing him almost shat themselves. Mack's chops are frightening hard and the very first one he threw on the outside was a motherfucker of a chop. The fact that Willie can have a match this entertaining with his flaws that he needs to work on and he's only gonna get better is incredible. Only thing preventing it being higher is that the finish was kinda anti climatic and Roddy's sick kick didn't connect properly._

******

*Claudio Castagnoli vs Joey Ryan - PWG World Championship - PWG Card Subject To Change III*
_Claudio's reign so far has been super and full of some great storytelling. Generico match had loads and there's a really nice story to this one with Joey saying he was gonna outwrestle Claudio but then after getting embarrassed goes back to his dirty tactics. Claudio sold the injured arm incredibly well and I loved him throwing forearms with his other arm and doing his best not to use his injured arm other than for big moves. Opening segment was super fun too. It's great to see Claudio given the chance to show just how great of a singles worker he is and how he's advanced to be more than just a powerhouse now._

****3/4*

*Young Bucks vs El Generico & Ricochet - PWG World Tag Team Championships - PWG Card Subject To Change*
_Pretty much what you'd expect from these 4. Was a good match until the final 5 or so minutes when it all broke down and it got fucking great. Ricochet is so crisp with his moves and he looks so natural with everything he does it's incredible. Sure he's spotty but he's a much better worker than a typical Jack Evans esque spotfest wrestler. Had the first 2/3rds of the match been better then this would have been a contender for PWG MOTY for sure._

******


----------



## topper1

It was a sick kick to Macks fat tittys :lmao


----------



## seancarleton77

My eyesight is actually the reason I hate Tanahashi in the first place. His matches are always missing something unless his opponent is carrying him and calling the match.


----------



## rafz

ROH Defy Or Deny
_Chris Hero vs. TJ Perkins _******
_Davey Richards vs. Claudio Castagnoli _****3/4*

NJPW 19/04
_Prince Devitt, Ryusuke Taguchi & KUSHIDA vs. Kota Ibushi, Kenny Omega & Daisuke Sasaki _******

NJPW New Dimension 03/05
_Hiroshi Tanahashi vs. Yuji Nagata _*****1/4*


----------



## USAUSA1

How can anyone seriously vote for Taker vs. HHH at Mania? They were sleeping on the mat half of the match. It was downright terrible.


----------



## SuperDuperDragon

Kendrick and Kazarian had a pretty descent match on Impact, that was eventually shat on by your everyday TNA shenanigans. I fucking love Kendrick though.


----------



## Bubz

seancarleton77 said:


> My eyesight is actually the reason I hate Tanahashi in the first place. His matches are always missing something unless his opponent is carrying him and calling the match.


I'm kind of with you here, I've never been able to get into his matches for some reason. I've never been really impressed by the guy even though I have been told I should be by numerous people.


----------



## seancarleton77

Roderick Strong was Willie Mack was beastly! I thought Willie Mack was kind of impressive before, now I'm sold and I'm on the bandwagon. **** easily.


----------



## Bubz

I thought Strong vs Willie Mack was pretty poor if i'm being honest. Willie Mack is very entertaining though and pulls off some crazy stuff. I've seen him do it better than in this match though as some of it seemed sloppy.

Low Ki vs Tozawa was pretty great apart from the botch in the middle with the turnbuckle spot. The sequence at the start was the best bit, even causing Low Ki to get the mic and diss WWE. Both these guys are great with their strikes so there were some pretty cool strike exchanges in here. ******


----------



## seancarleton77

I though Towza vs. Ki got worse as it went on. Ki never should have grabbed the mic.


----------



## topper1

bubz123 said:


> I thought Strong vs Willie Mack was pretty poor if i'm being honest. Willie Mack is very entertaining though and pulls off some crazy stuff. I've seen him do it better than in this match though as some of it seemed sloppy.


Glad someone saw the same thing I did.


----------



## Bubz

I definitely think the messed up turnbuckle spot really hurt the match (ki/Tozawa), It really seemed to take both men out of the match, thinking back on it **** is probably way to high, the middle section was pretty dodgy but they got back in to it near the end.

*Chris Hero vs Zack Sabre Jr ****+*
Seabs and Jack Evans have both said pretty much what I was going to say so I won't go in to it much but this was awesome! Great technical wrestling, great selling, great submissions, great transitions. This is the type of stuff I could just watch all day long. I swear Sabre can get an armbar locked in from any position ever! The Cyclone Kill is now my favorite strike finisher ever, Hero makes it look so damn good.


----------



## rafz

well a little late for some matches, but better late than never lol

WWE Extreme Rules
_Christian vs. Alberto Del Rio - Ladder Match _******

ROH Manhattan Mayhem IV
_Kings of Wrestling vs. LAX _******
_Christopher Daniels vs. Davey Richards - Pure Wrestling Rules _*****1/4*
_Roderick Strong vs. Eddie Edwards _*****1/4*

WWE Over The Limit
_Randy Orton vs. Christian _*****1/4*


----------



## Chismo

USAUSA1 said:


> How can anyone seriously vote for Taker vs. HHH at Mania? They were sleeping on the mat half of the match. It was downright terrible.


Story telling. The lost art of pro-wrestling.


----------



## rafz

USAUSA1 said:


> How can anyone seriously vote for Taker vs. HHH at Mania? They were sleeping on the mat half of the match. It was downright terrible.


this \/



rafz said:


> WrestleMania XXVII
> 
> _The Undertaker vs. Triple H - No Holds Barred Match_
> 
> Before get into the match, I could not let pass the two great entrances, were a spectacle just like Wrestlemania should be. Now talking about the match, I waited a chance to rewatched the match to review, meanwhile I read several feedbacks including in this forum, posts saying that was a spotfest match and there was no story, well that's what I saw: After two Wrestlemanias in a row, Shawn Michaels took Undertaker to the limit, using everything he had and sitll, unable to beat him. What Hunter had to do to not suffer the same fate? Exactly what he came to do, he could not win using your basic moves stuff, throwing Taker on the ropes, taking him down with clotheslines...he had to DESTROY The Undertaker, using everything he had, all your most powerful weapons, and not even being able to defeat him, was certainly marked as the one who came closest.
> 
> Fantastic points that I enjoyed:
> - Taker's magnificent selling;
> - few botches, nothing significant that will be remembered;
> - the most believable nearfall of all time, that sick twisted segment into the Tombstone of Hunter, and the incredible kickout after.
> 
> What bothered me:
> - HHH poor selling, especially at the end of the match;
> - two kickouts, after two straight finishers, first the Last Ride/Tombstone and after the two Pedigrees, both made that finishers make so much weaker than might have been.
> 
> It may not have been a 5* match, with a short builup which should have started well before to make people really believe that Hunter could ended the streak, even though during the match I bet at least 95% of the people watching the match thought the streak was over when HHH crossed Taker's arms and the referee was counting. But the two deserve congratulations, exceeded all expectations, including mine and stole the show, it's hard to believe that we will have a better match this year in WWE, and it certainly is a strong candidate for the Match Of The Year.
> 
> *****1/4*


----------



## peachchaos

Yes we've all read that and it doesn't change the fact that it is a terrible opinion.


----------



## topper1

Lets just move on from Taker vs HHH its been fought over to death in this topic.


----------



## rafz

peachchaos said:


> Yes we've all read that and it doesn't change the fact that it is a terrible opinion.


----------



## FITZ

topper1 said:


> Lets just move on from Taker vs HHH its been fought over to death in this topic.


:flip


No Holds Barred:
Undertaker vs. Triple H

They threw bombs at each other for the opening minutes of the match. If it were anyone else aside from these two I wouldn't have been too thrilled with the way they went about structuring the match. But you had two proven veterans in the ring that were basically fighting to see which was the bigger badass so it made sense that they would just go right at each other giving everything they had. Aside from the crazy stuff they did to each other I have to say that the amount of frustration that each guy showed when they were unable to get the win despite hitting one of their finishers was a nice touch. It really helped set the tone of the match because it gave the impression that either Triple H or Undertaker would have to do something extreme to get the win. This didn't turn out to be the case but the growing frustration was the reasoning behind Triple H eventually bringing the sledge hammer into the ring, which set up the ending. 

While the bomb throwing was awesome in it's own right the ending of the match was even better. Triple H giving the Undertaker the Tombstone after it looked like Undertaker was finally beaten was amazing. Having seen similar things in Flair's last match as well as Michaels' last match that spot where Triple H made the throat slashing gesture really made me believe that this was the end for the Undertaker. When Triple H hit the tombstone and Undertaker kicked out I had chills. It wasn't the crazy mark out moment that I had being there live but I can say that the magic was still there for me when I saw this for a second time. The ending where Undertaker locked Triple H in the Hell's Gate was a total surprise to me and the fact that the move was never mentioned on commentary or even teased during the match made the moment that much sweater when it happened because it came out of nowhere. 

I've seen Undertaker's Wrestlemania matches live for the last few years and this was the one where I was totally convinced that the streak was going to end. I remember sitting there going into the match and thinking, "There's no chance in hell Triple H is winning this." Well I was right but as the match wore on I found myself thinking, "Is Triple H really going to win this?" Right before the Hell's Gate I was thinking, "I don't see how Undertaker can pull this off." For convincing me that the obvious wouldn't happen this match deserves a lot of credit. 

I honestly feel like this match held up on a second viewing. Despite knowing what was going to happen it still sucked me in and had me focused on every move that they made. It's the best match I've ever seen in person and that means a lot as I've been really lucky and have seen all types of matches from different companies and different styles. The moves were brutal, the reactions the wrestlers gave were perfect, and this is one of the best stories I've seen told inside a wrestling ring. 

The Undertaker's series of matches over the last 3 years have been incredible and I can't wait to see the culmination of it all. Michaels took him to the limit at WM 25 and came even closer at WM 26. In this match the Undertaker was beaten, he couldn't walk, yet he somehow managed to pick up the win. More then anything I felt that this made Undertaker look mortal. 
****3/4


----------



## peachchaos

I could write a bunch of nonsense explaining my position, but I actually feel Undertaker's recent Mania matches have all been severely overrated. I'll have more to spout once see them all again, but from memory 25 was about ****1/2 and everything since has decreased in quality. Don't get me wrong, the writing/booking/planning is all grade A stuff, but let's face it. Dude's old.


----------



## FITZ

I wrote a Wrestlemania 27 review a while ago and posted it in the DVD thread there. I really only copy and pasted it in. It's not like a wrote that big long review just to spite people.

And I thought WM 26 was better than WM 25. The story they told was much better than at 25 and Undertaker sold his leg incredibly well.


----------



## Nervosa

TaylorFitz said:


> And I thought WM 26 was better than WM 25. The story they told was much better than at 25 and Undertaker sold his leg incredibly well.


While I MASSIVELY disagree with you on WM27, I completely agree with everything here.


----------



## The Drizzle

Lord, peeps are still going on about Taker/Trips? :no:

Nah, the past couple of pages were an entertaining read, tbh. Everything has been said that can be said for both sides (with laughable veritrol at some points.). Basically, nobody can bring anything new to the table either way. I definitely didn't find it that great, to me there's some obvious Taker/Trips fans running around here when we're trying to say there was good storytelling...the holes in the match have been pointed out quite a bit here, but again, it's whatever. We all like what we like.

------------------------------

Speaking of something I did like, no new additions to throw out there from my list I made last week, but I highly recommend checking out the Taichi vs Madoka Block B final match from NJPW's NEVER 6 to folks. Madoka is running away with the "under the radar" best wrestler award and he delivered again here, in 18 minutes of coolness. Great chemistry imo. I liked it better the 2nd viewing too.


----------



## USAUSA1

Sorry to start the conversation over again but I re-watched the match recently and it's not a type of match you can watch over again which makes it stock drop real low. And it's only been 2 months since it happen. I think replay value is a huge factor in wrestling for me.


----------



## Bubz

USAUSA1 said:


> Sorry to start the conversation over again but I re-watched the match recently and it's not a type of match you can watch over again which makes it stock drop real low. And it's only been 2 months since it happen. I think replay value is a huge factor in wrestling for me.


Yeah, I agree. I have done that a few times this year, watched a match, thought it was aweosme, and then rewatched it and it wasn't all that. I have rewatched pretty much everything from this year that was in my top 10, and Generico/Claudio is honestly the only match that hasn't changed in rating. Pretty much everything moved down apart from Davey/Daniels which I thought was better the second time.


----------



## seabs

*Chris Hero vs KENTA - NOAH/wXw Genesis In Germany*
_Isn't to the high quality that their HDNet match was but it was still great. For as great as it was it could have been even better if it wasn't for some downfalls. The match dragged a little in parts and went longer than it really needed to but both men strike the holy shit out of each other which makes up for anything else. It was great to see KENTA in a great match after so long too. He still didn't look as great as he was pre injury but it's a drastic improvement on anything that he's had in NOAH. Hero really looks like the best worker in the world atm in singles matches, soooo good. The finishing stages of the match are fucking awesome and more than makes up for the small segment of the match which dragged a little. They kinda missed a great moment at the end when KENTA delivers the GTS and Hero totally no sells and it just stares at KENTA before he gives him a second GTS. The camera angle didn't really catch Hero's reaction though and KENTA didn't give it enough time to develop and set in but if that had come it would have been insane._

******

*Takashi Sugiura vs Claudio Castagnoli - NOAH/wXw Genesis In Germany*
_Likewise this one dragged in parts but it was made up by a hot finish. Similarly to Hero, Claudio has looked like an incredible singles worker this year. The springboard uppercut he busted out at the very start was a thing of beauty and looked impeccable. Sugiura is kinda sloppy and not all that good. Most of his best GHC title matches have been either semi carry jobs or great because of botches/stiffness. Claudio's a beast though and makes for Sugiura's shortcomings. Some awesome power spots with Claudio, the top rope double reversal hurracanrana/powerbomb spot was brilliant for example. Shave 5 minutes off this and it would have been a lot better but it's still a really fucking good match, largely due to Claudio._

****3/4*


----------



## Indikator

At the show I squaled when Hero did his no sell. Maybe he was out of it

Crowd was exhausted at the main event.


----------



## Bubz

*Hero vs KENTA ****+*

The middle of the match did go slightly long but the first portion and the finishing stretch were amazing. Hero is just so good right now, I would have a hard time believeing that there is anyone in the world who is an overall better performer. KENTA was good aswell but Hero is the star. Both guys strikes looked awesome, and both sold the strikes really well. The end with Hero no selling the GTS was awesome, it did look like he was just completely out of it though. Like Seabs said I wish they would have caught the reactions on camera better because that really would have added to the moment.


----------



## Nervosa

Claudio Castagnoli vs. El Generico
****1/2

This is your indy archetype match, right here. Claudio is over, but is the heel by default, here. Really excellent workoever on Generico's leg, which he sold all the way through his comeback AND played into the finish, which is about as much as I can ask for when it comes to storyline. Even on his trademark comeback spots, Generico did them differently as a result of his leg being worked over. The action itself is pretty top notch, and the final gear of the match has some amazing reversals. My only big problem with the match comes in the finishing stretch, where claudio takes Generico's best moves, only to immediately get up and do the UFO, which basically gave him final control to the victory. Kinda weak considering how this was going, which basically makes it the 'weakest' of my ****1/2 star matches this year. I also think the pacing of the match could have been slowed down a little in order to make the crescendo better. I should also note than I can really see this as a rating that could definitely go down on rewatch.

Nakajima vs. Suzuki ****1/2
Sanada/Soya vs. Okabayashi/Sekimoto****1/2
Christian/Orton ****1/2
Steen/Generico ****1/2
Generico/Claudio ****1/2


----------



## Bubz

I figured you might like that match Nervosa. As you said, the way Generico had to change up some of his moves because of the leg was a great touch. The fact that his leg was a factor all the way through the match and that it was a variation of leg submissions that ended the match was also what makes it so good. If it had ended on say, a Ricola Bomb instead (I thought it was over there for sure) I wouldn't have rated it as high.


----------



## Nervosa

bubz123 said:


> I figured you might like that match Nervosa. As you said, the way Generico had to change up some of his moves because of the leg was a great touch. The fact that his leg was a factor all the way through the match and that it was a variation of leg submissions that ended the match was also what makes it so good. If it had ended on say, a Ricola Bomb instead (I thought it was over there for sure) I wouldn't have rated it as high.


This is totally true. That moment was storytelling at its best. The major story of the match becomes the REASON Generico lost. Seems so simple but it really is rare, these days. 

Anyways, my catch-up saturday continues:

Tanahashi vs. Nagata
***3/4

I swear this has happened every year for the past three years. People tell me that Tanahashi has had a MOTY Candidate, so I watch, I see the same bullshit slingblade variations and High Fry Frow variations, and I wonder why the fuck this guy gets over every year. What, is air guitar cool again, or something? 

The best part of the match is the beginning, with Nagata basically goofing off with how much better he is with striking and grappling. Tanahashi celebrates after every small victory, and Nagata begins to just wail on him until he misses a big boot that leads to Tanahashi’s boring ass workover. 

A lot has been made over the selling of both men in this match, which I really didn’t have a problem with. Nagata’s wasn’t no-selling as much as he was striking through the pain. I never felt like he was forgetting the injury, because he knew that his kick was the key, and that no matter how much it hurt, he had to keep kicking. As for Tanahashi: I honestly don’t think the arm was worked over enough to warrant a whole lot of long-term selling.

The matches sloppiness was much bigger problem, to me. Some moments of chain wrestling had to be redone when Tanahashi went the wrong way, and I think they hit heads in one of the early lock ups and just kinda backed off awkwardly. Late in the match, Nagata pushes Tanahashi into the corner and Tanahashi is late in taking it, and kinda falls awkwardly. The biggest problem was Tanahashi’s big late match counter off the top rope, which looked completely wrong and sloppy. What should have been the big change of momentum was pretty lackluster to me.

This match pretty well typifies Tanahasi’s biggest problem: he has no clue what to do late in a match. If it isn’t a slingblade or a HFF, he’s pretty lost. Its made even worse when you see Nagata’s awesome, varying offense and strikes to see how little Tanahashi can really do when in control late in the match. 

Where is Shinsuke when you need him to save an IWGP title match? O, there he is in the crowd, looking as bored with Tanahashi as I am.


----------



## Alan4L

the bored thing is Shinsuke's gimmick


----------



## Chismo

I never liked NJPW's heavyweight scene. I always saw New Japan as one giant Junior's federation.


----------



## Nervosa

Alan4L said:


> the bored thing is Shinsuke's gimmick


Even so, I was only using it for a joke. 



JoeRulz said:


> I never liked NJPW's heavyweight scene. I always saw New Japan as one giant Junior's federation.


I like Shinsuke....who tends to carry about everyone else to a good match occasionally.

Other than that, you're right on. Actually, that's pretty much true for all of Japan.

And now, back to work:

I have finally seen the wxw stuff!

Richards vs. Sabre Jr. 
***3/4

Ok, so….am I missing something here? ****1/2 from Seabs, several MOTY nominations….for this? Don’t get me wrong, the opening chain wrestling was very good, the counters near the end were really well done and the action was balls-out…but what about this made it a MOTY? Just an assload of nearfalls? There wasn’t a discernable story here at all, and the match didn’t really build. As soon as the chain wrestling was over, they just did a spotfest until the end; A GREAT spotfest, but a spotfest nonetheless. There was also some sloppiness between spots here and Sabre’s striking is really weak at some points. I had fun watching this and all, but ****1/2? Really?

I will say this: Zack Sabre Jr. probably ragdolls better than anyone in the world right now. 

LDRS of the New School vs. O’Reilly/Cole
****

Same thing here, really. Good match, great action…but MOTYC? I don’t see it.

This was, admittedly, a lot of fun. The opening action was excellent with all four guys feeling each other out. I loved the early control by the LDRS, shining up the babyfaces. The heel workover of Scurll was also very good, and built well to the finishing stretch. The action and double team maneuvers were great, and the onslaught by the LDRS after all four men fight from their knees was amazing. I really like how they worked the dynamic of both teams. Each team has a very similar looking technical striker and more of a ‘personality’ guy, so the matchups synched up really well. The Sabre/O’reilly sections were pretty incredible. 

But in all honesty this was just way, waaaaay too sloppy. Many of the transition tags looked like they weren’t entirely sure what to do, making for awkward spots. Right after the matching KO kicks, they really failed to synchronize how they fell, and when they made the tag, Scurll had to buy time for O’Reilly to make his. O’Reilly’s application of the double sharpshooter was also more than a little problematic. Not only did he fall while applying in it, the hold itself didn’t even appear to be locked in. This along with some very strange, aimless charges, several strikes that were showing air, and a pretty crappy Canadian Destroyer really brings the match down quite a bit. 

Really, really fun, but way too flawed to be rated as high as it has.

That said, your commentary was great, Alan. I had no clue you were Observer affiliated, either. Awesome work.


----------



## sXsCanadianFansXs

I think you and I are the only ones to go **** for LDRS vs. O'Reilly + Cole.

I thought it was exciting, if sloppy and contrived. Going to watch Nagata/Tanahashi and the PWG main-event and I should be all caught up (with the exception of DGUSA).


----------



## Groovemachine

Are we talking about the 16 Carat Gold Night 3 match between LDRS and Cole/O Reilly? Because I went ****1/2 and it's my current MOTY, just ahead of Richards/Perkins from Socal Showdown II. 

To me, it felt like the perfect mix of an old-school tag team match with a new-school vibe; they used a classic tag team formula but mixed it up with some innovative double team stuff, and it was just a pleasure to watch. Only thing holding it back for me was that there was a tad too much overkill at the end. That's my only real criticism.


----------



## Bubz

I have it at about ****1/4 now. If the match was less sloppy I would rate it higher. At points it seemed like they were trying to do everything so fast that they messed up a few things, examples being the double sharpshooter, the tombstone (Scurll's head was about 5 inches off the mat and it looked silly), the missed superkicks etc, but I enjoyed the rest too much to give it a lower rating.


----------



## Corey

*Dragon Gate USA - Open The Southern Gate*

CIMA vs. Johnny Gargano - ****

_Fantastic match. Chuck Taylor is obviously the most well known guy in Ronin but Gargano is quickly emerging as a breakout star this year. Everything he did was so crisp and smooth and he uses a good mix of strikes, submissions, and combinations. Turning into a really good all around wrestler. The one thing I don't like that I've seen DGUSA do a lot this year is in matches someone will kick out of a finisher late in the match and you'll see someone win after they hit the same thing like two or three times or just give him every finisher they use. It just seems flat at times. But regardless of that, this is a really nice match you guys should check out. I could see rating it even a 1/4* higher._

*Dream Partner Tag Team Match*
PAC & Ricochet vs. Chuck Taylor & Akira Tozawa - ****1/2

_AWESOME. Going in I had my doubts because obviously these guys aren't regular tag teams at all but this just has fantastic written all over it. So many intertwining feuds and storylines inside the match it made for a really good story unfolding. You had PAC and Ricochet teaming together, two guys who clearly don't like each other and each one wants to be known as the best high flyer in the world, and they just tried to one up each other the whole match. You have Chuck Taylor and Ricochet, who have a storied history on the indies and obviously the Ronin/Blood Warriors feud going on at the time, not to mention incredible chemistry together which made for some moments early in the match that got everyone in the building on their feet. And finally you have PAC and Tozawa who had a big title match the next night in Atlanta, and they just wanted to beat the hell out of each other. Tozawa split him open with a headbutt on the outside, so PAC was bleeding throughout the whole match. A__nd everyone knows unplanned blood just makes a match 4x better. I'd say the biggest thing I liked about this match was that it never got overly spotty, like you see a lot of in this company. I recently watched the main event from United: Philly and that just got ridiculous. It was like 630 after shooting star, then a corkscrew into a moonsault and there was no selling, just a bunch of flipping. This was much better than that match if you ask me, and honestly it's probably the best tag match I've seen all year. Yeah, I just said that. Watch this sucker._


----------



## Nervosa

Groovemachine said:


> Are we talking about the 16 Carat Gold Night 3 match between LDRS and Cole/O Reilly? Because I went ****1/2 and it's my current MOTY, just ahead of Richards/Perkins from Socal Showdown II.
> 
> To me, it felt like the perfect mix of an old-school tag team match with a new-school vibe; they used a classic tag team formula but mixed it up with some innovative double team stuff, and it was just a pleasure to watch. Only thing holding it back for me was that there was a tad too much overkill at the end. That's my only real criticism.


that is the exact one I'm talking about. I actually have NO PROBLEM with the 'overkill' at the end. I rarely ever consider a match overkill, at all, even in extreme cases unless the finish ends up weaker than a previous move. In my opinion the finish worked, so I had no problem with it.

I totally agree on the old school formula, and it was easily the best thing about this match. the only problem was....



bubz123 said:


> I have it at about ****1/4 now. If the match was less sloppy I would rate it higher. At points it seemed like they were trying to do everything so fast that they messed up a few things, examples being the double sharpshooter, the tombstone (Scurll's head was about 5 inches off the mat and it looked silly), the missed superkicks etc, but I enjoyed the rest too much to give it a lower rating.


All about the sloppiness. This is probably MOTY if everything had been clean, but it wasn't even close. I also agree about them trying to do everything too fast. If O'reilly takes his time, he could have gotten that double sharpshooter. Most of the bad spots I was just like....chill out guys, and get it right! that's something I always like about the Machine Guns. They always take an extra second to make sure the spot is right. Obviously you liked it a quarter star more than me, but I just think the sloppiness turned me off to it a bit more than you.


----------



## Nervosa

My Weekend of catching up continues:

ROH Manhattan Mayhem IV:

LAX vs. Kings of Wrestling
***3/4

Action wasn’t too bad, and the crowd was way into it. There just wasn’t enough substance here to put it over the top. The workover really didn’t build well enough to make the crowd want the big hot tag. Even when Homicide managed to get the advantage, he fell on the back suplex that he was supposed to counter into the tag. The high point in the match, however, was Hernandez’s dominance once he got the tag. The crowd was really hot here, but they died down big time before the finishing stretch. I love Claudio and all, but I don’t think the running European should be a finisher. He has like six moves that are better finishers. There was a weird “wait, that’s it?” at the end of the match. All in all, not bad, but you gotta feel like these two teams can do better.

Daniels vs. Richards
***1/2

Ok, so maybe I’m the only one who remembers this, (or cares) but under old Pure Wrestling Rules, if you tied someone up in the ropes and the referee breaks it up, it does NOT count as a ropebreak, it counts as a neutral break. Ropebreaks are only used in the competitor CHOOSES to use tit to break up a pin or submission. So the first ropebreak used makes no sense at all here. Even worse is the fact that Daniels had to TELL the ref to dock Davey a ropebreak. Just weird. 

Anyway, Daniels’ neckwork is very good here. He is beginning to carve his niche as the ‘neck work guy,’ in much the same way Nigel became the ‘arm work guy,’ which I really like. When you can associate a particular workover, I think it really helps the wrestlers’ persona. This neckwork leads to a two ropebreak lead. (should be one, grrr) Davey does a more than decent job selling it, and actually stops a suplex attempt during his first comeback, which was very cool. 

Davey uses consecutive leg submissions to even up the ropebreak scoreboard, and seems to be gaining control when Daniels decides to begin working the Koji clutch into his offense. I think they were smart to have Davey escape the first attempt, but use the ropebreak on the second. Too often we see guys immediately grab the ropes in Pure rules matches instead of working to escape first, so I liked how this helped the story. Davey mounts another comeback and executes an insane double stomp to Daniels draped over the guardrail. Damn that was painful. Davey then executes a superplex followed by a suplex into an armbar, which I actually didn’t like at all. His neck was too hurt early in the match to do a suplex, but now, AFTER two Koji clutches, he does two in a row. I don’t like it, but it leads to the third ropebreak. 

The submissions in the ropes that followed were really excellent, as both men clearly saw it as their best ways to win, and se the match apart as something different. The botch was pretty horrible all around, and clearly meant to be the finish, and took the match down big time for me. Luckily, the crowd stayed into it for the fake finish to go through, but for how many times I’ve seen Davey hit that, I just don’t get why he can’t do it all of a sudden. The match was a solid ****1/4 before the botch, but it was just too crucial of a spot to overlook in a match that already had a couple problems. (all of which were Davey’s fault) I am shocked to see so many people I respect rating this match so high with such clear flaws. 

I like Davey, but I want the Davey from two years ago, when he had stories in his matches that led to something instead of the move-driven sloppy ones these days. I hate to blame Eddie again, but maybe Davey saw Eddie get over without ever telling stories in his matches, and he decided that was the way to go. 

Edwards vs. Strong
***1/2

25 minutes of the SAME EDWARDS BULLSHIT. Seriously, if you’ve seen one big Edawrds singles match, you’ve seen them all! No story, no workover, no control, no comeback, just him and the other guy trading moves for 20+ minutes until they decide the end it. It’s the same thing every single time, whether the other party is Richards, Suzuki, Strong, Daniels (who probably had the best effort) or anyone else. Everyone hated Petey Willliams, but this is exactly what he was doing, and at least he knew how to time a comeback occasionally! Look, I love big moves as much as the next guy, but why should I care when it doesn’t even look like Edwards has had to dig down to pull them off? Hell, he was winning the match 30 seconds ago, just to lose and regain control, so why does a big counter mean anything now? Not to mention predictability; The MOMENT Roderick pulled Eddie out to the apron, I said out loud to myself : “Gibson driver countered into frankenstiner.” I did it half as a joke, but since Eddie thinks that a frankenstiener is a comeback…it happened! I know this entire subject has been discussed to death (perpetuated mostly by myself) but I still can’t understand the hype behind Edwards when he just does the exact same thing every time and can’t tell a story to save his life. When they started trading the chops (easily the bet moment in the match) I started realizing that ROH wanted desperately for this to resemble the epic battles between Erik Stevens and Roderick. Problem is that Stevens knew how to tell a story, sold Roddy’s moves to perfection, and had some semblance of timing. In all honesty, Stevens has more actually ability than I have ever seen even in Edwards’ best work. 

A lot has been made about the finish, but this is actually one thing I will not complain about. The nature of the match was that it was supposed to be a surprise victory, so I liked the surprise roll-up after a submissions struggle, especially after Eddie had just endured a big onslaught from Roddy. In was the only ‘dig deep’ moment they managed to squeeze in there. In general, even though I think Eddie is the weakest champion ROH has had since Jerry Lynn (wrestling wise, mind you) I was fine with him winning…if, for no other reason, he was OVER. (unlike Lynn) the fact is, ROH hasn’t had a good, over, babyface for a while. His main events, while flawed, are good enough to make the fans happy, and there is still enough of a buzz around him to keep what happened to Lynn from happening to him. The finish was just what his character needed.


----------



## seabs

*You knocked 3/4* of the match because of the botched finish? Bit harsh. The first rope break was for Daniels' character, contributing to his gradual heel turn and basically stealing a dubious rope break from Davey.*


----------



## Nervosa

Seabs said:


> *You knocked 3/4* of the match because of the botched finish? Bit harsh. The first rope break was for Daniels' character, contributing to his gradual heel turn and basically stealing a dubious rope break from Davey.*


Yeah, but it was still NOT the original rules of the match. Also, the referee really should be able to know the rules himself, and Daniels telling him looked like a botch. 

And yeah, the botch WAS worth that much considering it looks to me like it was probably the finish and killed ALL the momentum, not to mention just looked completely ridiculous. The finish is the most important part of the match: botch the finish, and it really kills the match, for me.


----------



## seabs

*Yeah I agree it hurt the match a lot but not by that wide a margin. It was supposed to be the finish too, it was blatantly clear from the improvised finish straight after.*


----------



## Nervosa

Seabs said:


> *Yeah I agree it hurt the match a lot but not by that wide a margin. It was supposed to be the finish too, it was blatantly clear from the improvised finish straight after.*


Yeah, I thought so, too, for that same reason.

I think I'm just harsher when it comes to finishes. To me, it should be the most memorable moment in a match...and in all honesty, as great as the pure wrestling stuff was, I think most people are remembering this for the botch before anything else.


----------



## FITZ

I've only seen Edwards/Strong live so I really can't judge it fairly as all I really remember was going crazy when Edwards won. I also loved the fact that I was totally fooled into thinking Strong would retain _twice_ so I give it a lot of credit for that. I would imagine you wouldn't get that feeling unless you were in the building as everyone knew Edwards won before they watched the match. 

And the botch is what I remember the most about Davey/Daniels. I mean I remember enjoying the match and some of the cool spots they did on the ropes but the only thing I really have a vivid memory of is Davey killing himself on the top rope.


----------



## Bubz

When I think of Davey/Daniels I honestly don't think of the botch at all. When I was reading Nervosa's review I didn't even think about it until I read it, and then I just thought 'Oh yeah...that happened didn't it'.

Thinking about it now, it really was a strange botch. How the hell did Davey misjudge the jump that much (to the extent of landing on the ropes) after years of doing the move perfectly.


----------



## Nervosa

bubz123 said:


> When I think of Davey/Daniels I honestly don't think of the botch at all. When I was reading Nervosa's review I didn't even think about it until I read it, and then I just thought 'Oh yeah...that happened didn't it'.
> 
> Thinking about it now, it really was a strange botch. How the hell did Davey misjudge the jump that much (to the extent of landing on the ropes) after years of doing the move perfectly.


It was very strange but to be fair.....have you ever seen Paul London's first attempt of that move? He did the exact same thing. 

My guess is that they focus so much on getting in the air high enough that they forget to spring forward as well. If you have ever seen Davey's version, he almost always goes up a lot more than forward, which lends to risking that very kind of thing.


----------



## Chismo

TNA Slammiversary: AJ Styles vs Bully Ray *****1/2*

Fuck, yeah! What a brutal match, such a great story telling, great character playing, sick spots and creative ending. Awesome!


----------



## Rickey

*Slammiversary 2011*

AJ/Bully Ray was great

Also recommend giving the following a watch from the same show.

Shelly and Storm vs. British Invasion
Crimson vs. Samoa Joe 
Angle vs. Jarrett


----------



## Corey

*TNA - Slammiversary IX*

*Last Man Standing*
AJ Styles vs. Bully Ray - ****1/2

_Jesus christ this was fantastic. Extremely physical from bell to bell. AJ brought out that ridiculously intense side he has where no one can stop him and it meshed together so well with Ray's constant stiffness. I really liked that it didn't rely too heavily on weapons like you see way too much of in these type of matches. I felt like an 8 year old kid watching AJ soar through the air towards the end and I have no problem saying that. I don't wanna spoil anything else, this was just really damn great. Good work TNA._


----------



## SuperDuperSonic

Sounds like a match that's on par with PPV main events of late 2009 and the 2005-06 series involving Joe, AJ, and Daniels.


----------



## topper1

I cant believe I have been talked into watching a match with one of the dudleys in it. This better be damn good.


----------



## Paroxysm

I echo the above post.


----------



## Bubz

I also echo said post.


----------



## Indikator

Nervosa said:


> All about the sloppiness. This is probably MOTY if everything had been clean, but it wasn't even close. I also agree about them trying to do everything too fast. If O'reilly takes his time, he could have gotten that double sharpshooter. Most of the bad spots I was just like....chill out guys, and get it right! that's something I always like about the Machine Guns. They always take an extra second to make sure the spot is right. Obviously you liked it a quarter star more than me, but I just think the sloppiness turned me off to it a bit more than you.


The thing is - it was the third day of a tournament and especially Zack looked battered and tired at his entrance. So why shouldn't they be just a little bit sloppy in their work? That's my one problem with this criticism. Personally I thought there was massive overkill at the show. I was absolutely amazed how well it held up. It was the anti-PWG live match (sorry, their European shows didn't hold up at all on DVD)


----------



## seabs

bubz123 said:


> Thinking about it now, it really was a strange botch. How the hell did Davey misjudge the jump that much (to the extent of landing on the ropes) after years of doing the move perfectly.


*It was way too rushed. He didn't even take time to set it up. He was barely on the top rope when he went for the move. *


----------



## seabs

*AJ Styles vs Bully Ray - Last Man Standing - Slammiversary 2011*
_Thought this was really good but not as great as others. It just seemed to be missing something to make it more memorable. AJ really brought the hate and the intensity and that helped the match a lot. His punches looked really good too. Always enjoyed Bubba before and he was good here, not great nor as good as AJ but he more than carried his his side of the deal. Ray's control segment was a notch too slow but it was methodical, played into both characters and AJ's fighting spirit came through nicely with the chops. It still had some lol TNA moments but that's to be expected. AJ pulling on the ring apron to reveal a TNA banner underneath the iMPACT wrestling banner was hilarious I thought. The camera work was really dodgy at times too and Taz/Tenay were generally quite horrible calling the match. The running ... whatever it was off the stage was poor too. Ray's positioning was too far out and it made the move as well as AJ's dive look weak. HATED how obvious Ray's blade job was too. Really despise it when wrestlers go underneath the ring and then come out with blood everywhere. Finish was bigger than anything prior to it so it worked and they had a big spot in there too. Wasn't crazy about the dive but it worked I guess. Hated how Bubba just set himself up on the table too. The final spot was fresh I guess although I wasn't crazy about it either. The teased powerbomb off the stage was a nice callback but it really should have been the finish with AJ doing it instead if this is intended to be the feud ender. Still a very good match but I wasn't crazy about it. Thought it could have done with some more spots. I'm not saying I wish it was spot heavy because I enjoyed how they didn't rely on weapon spots but I thought they could have used some more to make it more memorable rather than just a really good match that I'll forget pretty soon._

****3/4*


----------



## KingKicks

*TNA Slammiversary IX*

*Last Man Standing*
Bully Ray vs. AJ Styles ****¾-*****
_While I wouldn't go as high as others on the match, this was still a pretty damn great match and the best I've seen from TNA since MCMG/Beer Money last year. There isn't really much I can add to what Seabs said as my thoughts are damn near identical to him on the match. Really enjoyed the "AJ showing he's a man" section of the match by taking all the strikes Ray was inflicting and just asking for more_


----------



## Nervosa

Indikator said:


> The thing is - it was the third day of a tournament and especially Zack looked battered and tired at his entrance. So why shouldn't they be just a little bit sloppy in their work? That's my one problem with this criticism. Personally I thought there was massive overkill at the show. I was absolutely amazed how well it held up. It was the anti-PWG live match (sorry, their European shows didn't hold up at all on DVD)


A really good point, but to me, this still isn't an excuse. the way you explain it makes it sound like if they had been sloppy on purpose, they did it because it would have sold the previous days' matches. The truth is, I would have no problem if they had trouble hitting moves due to a limb that had been worked in the previous, or had they hit the moves with less impact as a result of their previous matches, but that wasn't the case. They executed the moves sloppily, and sold the moves as if they had been hit properly. Not to mention that it just makes the whole match seem much less professional.


----------



## Nervosa

AJ Styles vs. Bully Ray
***1/2

Everything that happened in the ringside area was awesome. Intensity was great, and the story of AJ's toughness was incredible. AJ begging for chops was the best part of the match: awesome intensity and Bubba's face was amazing.

Then they went to the stage....and it fell apart. Seabs is right: Bubba was way too far away, and the leap looked horrible. I hate the finish all around, mostly because AJ was on his feet, so the count should have broken for him. He wasn't down for a ten count....so he didn't lose. Drops from 4 stars to 3 1/2, just for that. 

Good match, especially by TNA's standards, but too many head-scratchers to put it over the top.


----------



## Bubz

*AJ Styles vs Bully Ray ***3/4+*

This was really good, but I hated the finish. I fucking hate TNA's stage spots they do, not the dives, but the ones were the wrestlers go through the stage. It wouldn't be so bad if it wasn't so obviously thin. It looked like cardboard!

Anyway, the rest of the match was great, AJ was amazing here, this is why I love the guy. I wont go in to much detail as Seabs and Nervosa have basically said what I was going to apart from I didn't mind the dive off the stage and the elbow drop from the scaffolding was pretty sweet.


----------



## seancarleton77

Chris Hero vs. Zack Sabre, Jr. = ***3/4 Hero is always great, and the kid takes a hell of a beating, sells like a champ too.

Sugiura Takashi vs. Claudio Castagnoli + **** NOAH & wXw Genesis In Germany - Castagnoli gives Sugiura his first great match of 2011 in this barn burner!

Chris Hero vs KENTA = ****1/4 to ****1/2. NOAH & wXw Genesis In Germany - Holy shit. The best match I've seen in awhile!

AJ Styles vs Bully Ray = **** Last Man Standing - Slammiversary 2011 – Shit finish to a great match.


----------



## Corey

*PWG - Card Subject To Change III*

Roderick Strong vs. Willie Mack - ****

_Willie Mack, where the hell did you come from? I'd honestly never even heard of the guy before DDT4 and now he's legitly trading chops with one of the best in the world. Fantastic match highlighted by Mack becoming a star. Literally everything he did in this match was great. He sold all of Roddy's chops and backbreakers like a champ, and when he returned fire he did it with such force that it really looked like he was retaliating after getting an ass whipping. Fantastic underdog performance from Willie and clearly Roddy is just gonna do what he does and be great. Extremely excited to see more of Mack._

*PWG World Championship*
Claudio Castagnoli(c) vs. Joey Ryan - ****

_Psychologically, this was great. Technically, this was great. Selling wise, damn near perfect. I really couldn't have asked for anymore from the match. Incredible performance from Claudio as he continues to make me wonder why he's not currently employed by Vince McMahon. The first several minutes where he displayed his technical prowess were just ridiculous. Joey's armwork was great and made perfect sense, and him telling the fans he would wrestle clean and then eventually poking Claudio in the eyes was great too. Although the finish was a bit rushed, it looked ok because Joey looked to be in quite a bit of pain. Awesome match._

*PWG World Tag Team Championship*
El Generico & Ricochet(c) vs. The Young Bucks - ****+

_As if the night couldn't get any better, you get this beauty of a tag match. Ricochet was a PERFECT replacement for London, and the Bucks are extremely entertaining as heels this year. Mainly when they're posing, which is all the time. So there you go. Everythiong was crisp and Ricochet didn't botch anything, so that's a big plus. Really it's just what you'd expect it to be. A fast paced, high flying tag match that's a lot of fun._


----------



## patrickshelley

Sami Callihan vs Yoshihito Sasaki wXw carat gold= 4,5/5
Davey vs Sabre same show= 5/5
TJP vs Davey= 4,5/5
TJP vs Generico= 4/5. it didnt bother me that this one was quick.
LAX vs KOW= 4/5
Ar Fox vs Rich Swann EVOLVE 7- 4/5
PAC vs Ricochet DG 211(I Guess)= 3,5/5, i feel like i should give more to this match, but lets go
PAC vs Doi Dead or Alive= 3,5/5 feel like i could give more to this one too =/
Ki vs Tozawa- 3/5
Mack vs Strong- 4/5 not sure how much rating to give to this one but, awesome match.
Nakajima vs Suzuki NOAH= 4,5/5
These are the best matches in my opnion and from the top of my mind for this year so far


----------



## aaron_mcn92

*Daisuke Sekimoto & Yuji Okabayashi vs. Manabu Soya & Ryota Hama (BJW 4/28)*: **** ¼

BJW crowd is firmly behind their guys and the AJPW guys get booed and embrace it. Hama was sublime as the super heavyweight and all his interactions were on point. Sek & Oka's signature spots are as fun and well placed as they always are. I found the finishing stretch very interesting. Every time it seemed like they were straying into overkill territory they did something meaningful to counteract it. The dual frog splashes felt like the finish, but it was okay to continue because Sek & Oka still have to successfully lift Hama up for a power move. The second lariat based battle between Sekimoto & Soya could also have been the finish, but again, it was okay to continue because the deadlift German appropriately finishes the match. So so much smart work.

It is going to be very interesting to rewatch the AJPW 3/21 tag later on, as this came really close to overtaking it and it just might do so upon rewatch. It's reaaally close. This is still a top 5 MOTYC right now though.


----------



## seabs

*I liked that match a bunch too. They booked Hama perfectly as an outside monster but there was never really a deserving payoff to it. I was convinced making Hama look indestructible was to set up a suplex spot from Sekimoto or Okabayashi but then they just did a double suplex spot and that was it so the finish fell kinda flat I thought. Crowd was super into it though and the story around making Hama look freakin Godzilla invading Big Japan was awesome but the lack of payoff to it hurt it for me. Still around ***3/4 though. Definitely wasn't as good as the 3/21 tag. The other defense in BJW vs Sasaki/Ishikawa was fucking great too btw.*


----------



## seancarleton77

aaron_mcn92 said:


> *Daisuke Sekimoto & Yuji Okabayashi vs. Manabu Soya & Ryota Hama (BJW 4/28)*: **** ¼
> 
> BJW crowd is firmly behind their guys and the AJPW guys get booed and embrace it. Hama was sublime as the super heavyweight and all his interactions were on point. Sek & Oka's signature spots are as fun and well placed as they always are. I found the finishing stretch very interesting. Every time it seemed like they were straying into overkill territory they did something meaningful to counteract it. The dual frog splashes felt like the finish, but it was okay to continue because Sek & Oka still have to successfully lift Hama up for a power move. The second lariat based battle between Sekimoto & Soya could also have been the finish, but again, it was okay to continue because the deadlift German appropriately finishes the match. So so much smart work.
> 
> It is going to be very interesting to rewatch the AJPW 3/21 tag later on, as this came really close to overtaking it and it just might do so upon rewatch. It's reaaally close. This is still a top 5 MOTYC right now though.


WAIT! There is a good Hama match? The odds of that happening were only slightly greater than Canada winning the FIFA World Cup, and Canada doesn't even qualify. I've got to see this miracle.

Sekimoto Daisuke & Okabayashi Yuji vs. Sasaki Yoshihito & Iskikawa Shinya - All Asia Tag Team Championships - BJW 05.05.2011 = Great fucking Strong BJ Tag!


----------



## dele

BJW 5/5/2011

Ryuji Ito (c) vs Takashi Sasaki

***

Ito's year plus title reign is getting real old real fast.


----------



## Nervosa

dele said:


> BJW 5/5/2011
> 
> Ryuji Ito (c) vs Takashi Sasaki
> 
> ***
> 
> Ito's year plus title reign is getting real old real fast.


Ito is STILL fucking champion? Shows how long its been since I've looked into BJ.

Seriously, Ito as champion was old two reigns ago.


----------



## dele

At this point, he's holding it for Takeda or Kasai. His reign ending to anyone else would be a disappointment in my book.


----------



## Wrestling is Life

Wow, watched Willie Mack vs Roderick Strong from PWG Card Subject to Change III last night and even with my high expectations, they were exceeded. Willie Mack will be huge if he can get more bookings outside of SoCal. I give the match **** making it my second favorite match of the year right behind Roderick Strong vs Davey Richards from Honor Takes Center Stage Night One which I rate at about ****1/4. But, I still have all of 2011 ROH on DVD that I have yet to start as I just finished 2010, so expect a few more matches to go into the running.


----------



## seabs

*Prince Devitt vs Kenny Omega - NJPW 05.06.2011*
_Man this was so much fun and these two have incredible chemistry together, better than Devitt/Ibushi imho. Omega has improved leaps and bounds since he was a guy on the US Indies. The "DDT flavour" being added to the match was an enjoyable and refreshing addition to your usual 10 minute New Japan juniors match. The table spot was really good too and the first failed attempt built to the second attempt where the spot actually came really well. Then the climax is top notch and there's an awesome near fall off Omega's hadouken. Super chemistry, great action and heaps of fun. Can't imagine anyone watching this and regretting it. BOSJ DVDs need to get here NOW!!!_

****3/4*


----------



## antoniomare007

yup, that's a good recommendation for the "fun matches" thread.


----------



## Caponex75

KOW vs. The American Wolves was great.......the crowd sucked balls though. The match was far superior to their plymouth match though and would of probably been the best tag match this year had it been in front of a better audience.


----------



## Rickey

*WWE Capitol Punishment*

Punk vs. Mysterio 
Christian vs. Orton


----------



## Wrestlinfan35

*WWE Capitol Punishment 2011*
_Rey Mysterio vs. CM Punk_ - ***3/4 - ****


----------



## Corey

*Dragon Gate USA - Enter The Dragon 2011*

*Elimination Match*
Blood Warriors (CIMA, Austin Aries, & Brodie Lee) vs. Johnny Gargano, Rich Swann, & Masato Yoshino - ****1/4

_I __absolutely loved this. It sucked that Chuck was hurt but Yoshino is a fine replacement. He wasn't involved in the match very heavily but his exchanges with CIMA early on were ridiculously great. Brodie looked like the ultimate big badass heel and it was definitely a shame he hurt himself because he was absolutely on fire. Crowd started a Brodie Lee chant after his elimination, so I think they liked his performance too. Late in the match CIMA went towards the camera and said: "Ronin baby? Ronin baby? I am baby!" And it was just one of those really stupid things that you had to laugh at once he put his thumb in his mouth and kept yelling baby. The final several minutes with the last two guys is what really made the match for me. They had to have been so gassed as the match went well over 30 minutes but they really busted their asses in the end and I loved it. _

*Open The Freedom Gate Championship*
YAMATO(c) vs. PAC - ****

_Another fantastic match on a fantastic show. As soon as YAMATO started working on the leg I thought to my self, "there's no way in hell PAC of all people is gonna sell that." But to my pleasant surprise, he actually did. It wasn't to the extent where he had to change his whole offense like Claudio and Generico have in PWG this year, but he'd occasionally limp, act like it buckled, or slap some life back into it. He just didn't blatantly ignore it like I expected, so that was good. The match itself had a really nice pace coming off the last match, where it just kept building and building towards the end and never got overwhelming. The crowd were just eating up the nearfalls near the end and it was cool to watch all their reactions. Really great stuff with a good performance from the pacster._


----------



## dj161

WWE Capitol Punishment

Randy Orton vs Christian - ***1/2


----------



## topper1

Kings vs Wolfs ****


----------



## seabs

*Kings Of Wrestling vs American Wolves-ROH Revolution USA*
_****1/4_


----------



## peachchaos

Seabs said:


> *Kings Of Wrestling vs American Wolves-ROH Revolution USA*
> _****1/4_


Agreed. Much better than their previous encounter.


----------



## antoniomare007

*Fujita “Jr.” Hayato vs Koji Kanemoto - BOSJ 26/5*

Great 10 minute match. Shocker, I know.

*Davey Richards vs Prince Devitt - BOSJ 26/5*

Fun main event. This is the first time I've seen Davey fully hitting his opponent on that crazy ass dive he does so that's a plus, lol.


----------



## geraldinhio

Just catching up on a few matches .
El Generico and Ricochet (champions) vs. The Young Bucks CSTC III
Very good action throughout. Ricochet continues to impress in his PWG performances, and I think it’ll start transitioning into wins real soon . Really glad he didn't botch ....well not too much . Generico is awesome as usual and The Buck's schtick is so awesome . Super fun event and a good old PWG spotfest . **** snowflakes 

Side note : Matt Hardy and Eric Bischoff defeated the “Generation Me" for some indy fed in Orlando a couple of weeks later . Does this mean they're the number one contenders or what ? :side : A proud moment for PWG when their champs job to The Hardy brother no one gives a shit about and a 50 year old who no one has given a shit about in ten years .


----------



## KingCrash

It was even worse then that. Matt basically beat the Bucks two on one clean, then tagged in Eric for the pin. Good times.

*WWE Capitol Punishment*

CM Punk vs. Rey Mysterio - ****
Randy Orton vs. Christian - World Heavyweight Title - ***1/2

*Chikara - Aniversario & His Amazing Friends*

Hallowicked vs. Mike Quackenbush - ***3/4


----------



## seabs

antoniomare007 said:


> *Fujita “Jr.” Hayato vs Koji Kanemoto - BOSJ 26/5*
> 
> Great 10 minute match. Shocker, I know.
> 
> *Davey Richards vs Prince Devitt - BOSJ 26/5*
> 
> Fun main event. This is the first time I've seen Davey fully hitting his opponent on that crazy ass dive he does so that's a plus, lol.


_*Koji/Hayato was fucking great but the finish sucked and it ended really abruptly I thought and way too soon. The majority of the matches on the show ended too soon actually but the Hayato match was hurt the most by it I thought. Hayato winning should have been a bigger deal rather than a submission victory that nobody was ready for. It was great for what it was though. I liked Davey/Devitt a bunch too. Best I've seen Davey on his own for a while and he's much better working as full on prick heel. Crowd still doesn't care about him but they care about Devitt so that helped to get him some heat. Crowd stuff was really good, a few minutes longer and a more even climax and I would have gone higher than ***3/4. ***1/2 for Hayato/Kanemoto too.*_


----------



## antoniomare007

you went unspoiled for the BOSJ right? I already knew that Hayato vs Koji was gonna be short so I was expecting a quick "shocking" finish and it didn't hurt my enjoyment of the match.

100% agree on Devitt vs Richards. I lol'd when Davey screamed "CHAOS!!" and got no response from the crowd :lmao


----------



## rafz

NOAH & wXw Genesis In Germany
_Chris Hero vs. KENTA _*****1/4*
awesome match, for almost one year without a great match finally KENTA's back. This was better than their HDnet match IMO.

WWE Capitol Punishment
_CM Punk vs. Rey Mysterio _******
great wrestling match, too bad that the crowd was really bad in this PPV.


----------



## dele

Capitol Punishment:

Ziggler/Kofi - ***1/2

Punk/Rey - *** 3/4

Orton/Christian - ***

Cena/Truth - MINUS FOUR AND A HALF STARS!


----------



## seabs

antoniomare007 said:


> you went unspoiled for the BOSJ right? I already knew that Hayato vs Koji was gonna be short so I was expecting a quick "shocking" finish and it didn't hurt my enjoyment of the match.
> 
> 100% agree on Devitt vs Richards. I lol'd when Davey screamed "CHAOS!!" and got no response from the crowd :lmao


*Yeah but I know who won it. Other than that I'm watching them all not knowing who won what matches. I'm guessing if the majority of the matches were short for the 1st Korakuen show then the majority of them will be sub 10 minute matches which is a shame when you get a match like Hayato/Kanemoto and it's on it's way to being an incredible match but it gets hurt by a lack of time. I thought the first 5-7 minutes were absolutely incredible too. Hayato manning the fuck up taking Koji's kicks and the way both men sold it was awesome. 

Davey screaming "AMERICAN WOLVES!" and now "CHAOS!" is hilarious because it's always met with dead silence. He was getting some strong heat at the very start of the match though but I'm guessing it was due to Devitt being super over rather than people caring about Davey. 

Liger/Dorada was the match that disappointed me the most in terms of being cut short. It was such a great match for a 3 minute match but that's what it was - a 3 minute match which was kinda lame.*


----------



## Bubz

*KOW vs Wolves - ROH Revolution weekend night 1 ****1/4+*

Okay so this was pretty awesome, but it definitely needs a rewatch, they started out quick and I mean really quick. They hit huge moves in the first 5 minutes. It caught me off guard and I thought to myself 'Oh God they are going for a 20+ minute finishing stretch spot fest here'. It wasn't the case and the start really worked in the context of the match, it was never slow even with the long workover on Eddie and Davey looked great with the Davey/Claudio exchanges being the best in the match. Thats not taking antyhing away from Hero/Eddie though who gave us some awesome previews for their match the next night. Eddie played the role of the underdog very well and got the shit beaten out of him for pretty much the entire match. This may be my tag MOTY, maybe better than LDRS vs Cole/O'reilly.


----------



## seabs

*Prince Devitt vs TJP - NJPW 28.05.2011*
_Really enjoyed this and these two seemed to mesh really well together. There were a few arkward moments on TJ's end but on the whole they worked great together. I guess it depends on how much you enjoy both guys but I thought this was top stuff._

******

*Kota Ibushi vs KUSHIDA - NJPW 28.05.2011*
_Loved this. KUSHIDA's great but he's still got noticeable rookie tendencies that fault his matches. Nevertheless he's this good right now, just imagine how great he's gonna get. He's really over for the short time he's been in New Japan too. Ibushi is Ibushi and he rocks the house down. The springboard moonsault onto the ramp with such little room for error was sublime and the spot where Ibushi goes for his springboard hurracanrana and KUSHIDA reverses it into one of his own was brilliant. I was really shocked at the finish too. This fucking rocked._

******

*Jushin Liger vs Great Sasuke - NJPW 28.05.2011*
_Wasn't really looking forward to this all that much and when I saw it was the main I was kinda dreading it even more but they worked a great non juniors main event type match and it definitely worked for them. I dont really care a whole for 90's Sasuke and I really dont care for 2011 Sasuke with his awful ring gear but Liger is so fucking great even now it's amazing. Towards the end Sasuke starts pulling out the ridiculous bumps and it makes him relevant and definitely helped to take the match to the next level. The dropkick from the top rope which actually resulted in him taking a sick bump onto the apron followed by the top rope senton to the outside was a great sequence. There's a great back drop spot on the apron just before it too. Compared to the other BOSJ matches so far this was really long but it worked as it was slower which also played into their hands given their ages. The leg work early on was good but it kinda went nowhere as you'd expect from a juniors match when one of them targets a leg. It didn't bother me though because what happened after was so enjoyable. Liger's selling for the finish was fucking sublime and it played nicely off the finish to the Dorada match too._

******


----------



## antoniomare007

*Dick Togo vs Kota Ibushi - JUDGEMENT 2011*

They tried to have an epic match but didn't quite achieve their goal, and neither guy did a good job at selling so I guess this is not for everybody, lol. Still, this was a damn good match and worth a look (it's on youtube). Had Korakuen been more alive this would have been top notch stuff.

****-****1/4

PS: someone (*cough* KingCrash *cough* :side should make a gif of Kota's amazing top rope dropkick to the outside, that looked absolutely sick.


----------



## TheAce

> Davey screaming "AMERICAN WOLVES!" and now "CHAOS!" is hilarious because it's always met with dead silence. He was getting some strong heat at the very start of the match though but I'm guessing it was due to Devitt being super over rather than people caring about Davey.


man...you guys are fronting on Davey in NJPW (The Anti-Davey sentiment is getting silly) He's turning into a good little heel over there and his pacing is getting so much better. I got the impression the crowd is starting to buy him as a heel and it's not just to do with Devitt being mega over....IMO anyway


----------



## Caponex75

TheAce said:


> man...you guys are fronting on Davey in NJPW (The Anti-Davey sentiment is getting silly) He's turning into a good little heel over there and his pacing is getting so much better. I got the impression the crowd is starting to buy him as a heel and it's not just to do with Devitt being mega over....IMO anyway


This. Richards seems to have gotten the hang of working the japanese crowd and the crowd seemed to buy pretty much all of his offense. You can't just credit Devitt that.....you really think NJPW would let some lackluster wrestler beat their freaking Jr Champion?


----------



## seabs

*Davey's a good worker in New Japan most of of the time. How much people like/dislike Davey doesn't change the fact that the Japanese crowds don't give a shit about him.*

*Prince Devitt vs Fujita Jr. Hayato - NJPW 29.05.2011*
_Incredible sprint of a match._

*****+*


----------



## seabs

*Masato Yoshino vs Don Fuji - Open The Dream Gate Championship - Dragon Gate 18.01.2011*
_Don Fuji man. Jesus that ol' motherfucker is so god damn awesome in this. Not like Yoshino is a slouch and Fuji carriers the match all by himself but oh my I really doubt I'd have enjoyed it as much as I did without him. I doubt many people would have brought Fuji as a serious threat going into it but the crowd really get behind him and there's some super near falls. Mochizuki jumping into the ring to congratulate Fuji after one of the near falls was an awesome little touch. Crowd is super hot like I said and along with Fuji they turn a decent match into a great one. It's not like they did anything that you wouldn't get out of a normal title defense in Dragon Gate but the atmosphere is fucking great and really pushes the match to a new level. Shame there's some of it clipped out and I hate that basically every match on Infinity gets clipped to some degree because you could get an awesome match like this and then realise there's like 5-10 minutes chopped out so there could be a really shitty 5 minute control segment that is quite awful and brings the overall quality of the match down but whatever._

*****1/4*

*Yuji Nagata vs Suwama - AJPW 09.04.2011*
_WHY THE FUCK HAS NOBODY TALKED ABOUT THIS IN HERE YET? Jesus this was awesome. Suwama's selling of his arm is one of the best pieces of selling I've seen all year and it's totally constant throughout the duration of the match, even when he's on offense. I'm a total sucker for guys selling injuries during their own offense and nowhere near enough guys do it but it's brilliant when they do. Suwama throwing chops and punches whilst keeping his injured arm straight and then just deciding fuck it and throwing his injured arm at Nagata but still selling it was great. The strike exchanges are great and the crowd gets really hot for them too which just makes it all the better._

*****1/4*

*Kea/Akiyama, Akiyama/Sanada and Nagata/Sanada from Champions Carnival are all ***3/4+ matches too which are definitely worth checking out.*


----------



## antoniomare007

I never watch Suwama matches, don't know why. It's like I always find other things to watch, lol.

*Daisuke Sekimoto & Yuji Okabayashi vs Manabu Soya & Ryota Hama - 4/28/11*

Fucking awesome match, exactly what I expect from an interpromotional encounter. A hot crowd, hate and clear faces and heels. Daisuke & Okabayashi vs All Japan has been the feud of the year so far IMO.

****1/4


----------



## wildpegasus

Davey vs Kanemoto was terrific. No rating yet because I was very busy while watching it. I didn't want to wait so I took a glimpse at it right away. This felt like a competive intense battle. Try to go in without spoilers because it makes a lot more fun. BOSJ is so much fun this year.


----------



## dk4life

DRAGON GATE USA UNITED: FINALE - BxB Hulk vs. Akira Tozawa

Just watched this match, this is such an awesome match, I don't know much about stories and in ring psychology, but I know I loved this match, the minute long stiff bicycle kicks was so fun, and Akira Tozawa is so freaking awesome. becoming a big fan of this guy and BB Hulk was impressive, the final 5 minutes were really fun to watch.


----------



## seabs

*Davey Richards vs Kenny Omega - NJPW 08.06.2011*
_***3/4_


----------



## seancarleton77

Kanemoto vs. Taichi 5.29 was fantastic. I have really underrated Taichi in the past, but that guy gets heat, and not just by being ugly and annoying (Vickie Guerrero).

Jushin Thunder Liger vs. KUSHIDA 5.29 had excellent pacing, excellent selling and a great finish.

Can not wait for Pro-Wres Love. I'm guessing there is at least 2 solid match of the year candidates.

By The way Devitt vs. TJP and Liger vs. Sasuke were very strong.


----------



## WOOLCOCK

*Christian v Randy Orton, WWE Over The Limit 22/05/11*

Finally got around to watching this and loved every minute of it. Watching this Christian makes me incredibly fearful of his heel turn affecting his ability as a worker, his timing, selling, bumping and facial expressions are picture perfect for a babyface worker and I fear him controlling a match just won't be anywhere close to him playing a FIP. This was also one of the better Orton matches I've seen in quite some time and it was nice to see a bit of his 04-08 epic run as a worker be shown. Anyway most have already touched on the better parts of the match, the constant counters and the way Christian at times switched up his offence due to Orton being able to counter was a nice touch. The callback spot to the finish in the Smackdown match was glorious and a great advancement in the story and Orton busting out the Billy Goats Curse was very surprising. Orton teasing the punt but hesitating was a great way of building a false finish (imaginging it live I could totally buy someone believing Orton hesitating on the punt followed by the spear to be the finish and the story being Orton beat himself. Knowing who won removed that element of surprise for me when watching it but it didn't bother me at all as everything building up to it was great. Finish was great too in keeping Christian looking strong in defeat and continuing the story that Orton was just that little bit better on the big spots (i.e counters to Christian's offence). It probably also helps that I enjoy the 'sudden RKO out of nowhere' as a finish in keeping the opponent looking credible in defeat. MOTY for me so far and the sort of detailed attention to storytelling and progressing a program that I love in a match. *****1/2*

*Drew McIntyre v Chris Masters, WWE Superstars 13/05/11*

Okay so probably no-one will enjoy this anywhere near as I did, but currently Masters v McIntyre is one of my favourite combos in wrestling along with Navarro/Solar (although I prefer the latter). Masters has been on a tear since early '10 on Superstars to the point where I'm going to rewatch a bunch of his matches and come up with a top 10/20 since early 2010. McIntyre is a hell of a worker atm and probably a top 5 guy in the world for me with his offence, bumping, facial expressions and transitions into offence, of course the fact he employs a Finlay like 'use every part of the ringside area to torture his opponent' is also brilliant. 
The actual match goes just over 10 minutes but they get so much stuff in. Masters' offence always looks great and Drew is especially great at bumping for a guy his size and the early stages of Masters being a cut above Drew all builds to the sweet transition spot where Drew hurls Masters' leg off of the ring post. Now in 2011 there aren't many people I'd say can sell a body part as well as Chris Masters (Bryan & Chrisian probably edge him just) and Mcintyre is one of my favourite guys in a control segment so its all greatness. Mcintyre just destroys the leg, no overly fancy stuff but just brutal offence that gets across the pain Masters is suffering without looking hokey. Of course Masters takes the time to sell his ass off, him kneeing drew in the corner then pulling himself to the the top of the ropes and selling the pain is a great Masters touch that most guys would ignore. The transition into the samoan drop was also built well and Masters' scream after it again puts over the leg work. They had a couple of nice call back spots to a 90 second Smackdown match where Masters beat Drew with a sky high spinebuster and also when Drew counters a Masters backslide into an attempted Future Shock DDT. The finish is brilliant and again puts over the leg work which Masters endured throughout the match, something I always love in matches instead of body work being ignored in the closing stages and in hindsight being nothing more than killing time. ****3/4*


----------



## New Blood

I've heard La Parka vs. El Mesias from TripleMania and Blue Panther vs. ***** Casas and Virus vs. Guerrero Maya Jr. from CMLL is as good as any of the really good stuff from the U.S. or Japan.

This thread needs more lucha!


----------



## WOOLCOCK

New Blood said:


> I've heard La Parka vs. El Mesias from TripleMania and Blue Panther vs. ***** Casas and Virus vs. Guerrero Maya Jr. from CMLL is as good as any of the really good stuff from the U.S. or Japan.
> 
> This thread needs more lucha!


Yeah1993 discussed Navarro/Panther v Solar/El Satanico 5/3/11 in his blog (pro graps one in my sig) and I went ahead and watched it and thought it was one of the best matches I've seen all year. Super fun matwork between Solar and Navarro and Solar/Panther, had some shite finishes though sadly but for the 30 minutes or so they got it was great and a total blast to sit through.

There was also a Terry/Navarro v Ultraman/Solar tag I think from this year that I remembered loving, as well as the 9/01/11 and 16/01/11 IWRG tags. IWRG still kicking ass baby!


----------



## 777

I'll put a good word in for Mesias vs Park at Triplemania. Action packed match. Ran the gauntlet for spots, with some new ones I haven't seen before. It really was better than their match at Guerra de Titanes.
****1/2 - Best I've personally seen all year.


----------



## patrickshelley

not like, AAAAAWWWEEESOOME F'N MATCH, but the best iv seen from this year in a while, Devitt vs Richards, diserves a mention, im gonna give it 3,5/5
Also remembered of King vs Cannon at KOT, i just loved it, BAM! 4,5/5 to me, there we go


----------



## Kapone89

ROH - Worlds Greatest Tag Team/Davey Richards vs. Kings of Wrestling/Roderick Strong - World's Greatest *(****1/4)*


----------



## seabs

*CIMA, Naruki Doi, Naoki Tanizaki & Ricochet vs Masato Yoshino, BxB Hulk, Susumu Yokosuka & PAC - Loser Revives Survival Elimination Match - Dragon Gate 04.03.2011*
_There's probably a fair 8-10 minutes clipped out of this match which goes 28 minutes but what they show is incredibly fun. The loser revives gimmick is awesome and it offers some really fresh stuff that they can do. The over the top rope elimination stip is a super idea too. PAC doing one of his huge dives to the outside and inadvertently eliminating himself was an awesome touch. Obviously the stip means the matches can be even more fast paced with loads of finishes and even more super crazyness. The tactical side of the stip adds another interesting dimension too it though. Awesome gimmick match with some awesome action to go along with it._

*L.A Park vs El Mesias - Hair vs Mask Match - AAA TripleMania XIX*
_I'm not a huge lucha fan but I enjoyed this and it's something I can definitely see more hardcore lucha fans loving. Kinda similar layout to the Parks match from last year where it's a massive brawl with a big main event feel to it. There's some great spots in there, especially the final table spot._

*Dick Togo vs Kota Ibushi - DDT 27.03.2011*
_This was really good but it could have been better. 007 put it nicely when he said they were going for something epic but didn't quite achieve it and that's definitely true but it's still a great match. Didn't need to go as long as it did and by the end they were kinda doing stuff with no meaning and it was starting to hurt the match. Kota's top rope dropkick to the outside was insane though. He fucking struggles to get his balance on the rope and then fucking does that. _

******

*Kotaro Suzuki vs Ricky Marvin - NOAH 08.05.2011*
_Focus of the match is centred around Marvin working over Suzuki's leg and when they started out I feared the worst as junior matches when one guy works over the others leg usually dont work as they just totally disregard it come the later stages but as it went on they kept at it, Suzuki kept selling it and they put a really good match together. Finish was a bit sudden though and it could have been a bit more even rather than Suzuki just suddenly pulling a 3 count out as it made Marvin look really weak. Strong finish and this would have been even higher._

****3/4*


----------



## topper1

Davey vs Eddie ****1/2


----------



## KingKicks

*ROH Best In The World 2011*

*ROH World TItle Match*
Eddie Edwards vs. Davey Richards *****¾*
_Such an amazing match. Everything I was expecting and more, with my only real gripes being that the match lost a little steam towards the end and I would of liked to of seen the match end via submission, after all the damage Eddie took to his ankle during the match. Still amazing and my MOTY for 2011_


----------



## ddog121

Best in the World:

Christopher Daniels v. El Generico ****
4 Way Elimination Tag Match ****1/2 (probably gonna get some hate for this one but I don't care, I loved it)
Eddie Edwards v. Davey Richards ****3/4


----------



## sXsCanadianFansXs

I don't fucking care what anyone else has to say.

Davey vs. Eddie.

*****. 
MotY for 2011.


----------



## topper1

sXsCanadianFansXs said:


> I don't fucking care what anyone else has to say.
> 
> Davey vs. Eddie.
> 
> *****.
> MotY for 2011.


I really wanted to go higher then I did but they got a little sloppy in the last 5 - 10 mins right around the time Davey kicked the post.


----------



## sXsCanadianFansXs

topper1 said:


> I really wanted to go higher then I did but they got a little sloppy in the last 5 - 10 mins right around the time Davey kicked the post.


I believe that's called fatigue.


----------



## NexS.E.S

*Best In the World 2011*

Eddie Edwards vs. Davey Richards: ****3/4


----------



## Bubz

*ROH Best In The World*

Christopher Daniels vs El Generico ****1/4
KOW vs ANX vs WGTT vs The Briscoes ****
Davey Richards vs Eddie Edwards *****3/4*

Yeah...so Davey/Eddie is the new MOTY for me. Amazing. Almost everything was perfect, perfectly executed, perfectly sold and the story was amazing. Davey saying to Eddie as he destroyed him 'You asked for this!' and then later 'You will always be my brother' were great moments in a match full of them. Sick spots, amazing submission wrestling and great selling from Eddie on the leg. This just felt so epic to me. My only problem is that it should have ended with a submission on Eddies leg, but the finish was great with Davey repeatedly kicking the living shit out of Eddie with no remorse and Eddie not giving up. The last kick was brutal as hell and definitely looked like it knocked Eddie out. If this had ended with a submission I would have given it the full 5.


----------



## MajinTrunks

Best In the World 2011 - Eddie Edwards vs Davey Richards: ***** 

Best match I've seen all year and I'm not even a fan (yet)


----------



## sXsCanadianFansXs

As far as I'm concerned, Davey vs. Eddie is the best match in Ring of Honor history.

Better than the DG spotfest, Punk/Joe, Joe/Kobashi, Danielson/McGuinness, etc.

The bout, the story and the moment afterward propel it to the top.

*****.


----------



## topper1

sXsCanadianFansXs said:


> I believe that's called fatigue.


And I believe that is called an excuse :flip. They got sloppy in the 3rd act and the crowd got quite.


----------



## Caponex75

Wow.....Richards vs. Edwards....Quite the strong match. This might surpass HHH/Undertaker because I have trouble thinking of where I might have been bored or had a overwhelming problem with any of the match. Finish was just....great. It was just the fitting end/beginning for the title match.


----------



## Bubz

They didn't get sloppy, they just slowed the pace down slightly and it sold the exhaustion they were feeling. Thats how I saw it anyway, I didn't think they were sloppy at all.


----------



## Caponex75

Selling is pretty important........it's one of the key elements to a freaking wrasslin match.


----------



## topper1

bubz123 said:


> They didn't get sloppy, they just slowed the pace down slightly and it sold the exhaustion they were feeling. Thats how I saw it anyway, I didn't think they were sloppy at all.


Maybe Ill check it out again on replay but I personally felt the 3rd act was a step down from the 1st 15 - 20 mins.


----------



## Bubz

@ Capone...Yep, the selling was great in the match

@ Topper...Thats fair enough, how long was the match if anyone knows?


----------



## Caponex75

bubz123 said:


> @ Capone...Yep, the selling was great in the match
> 
> @ Topper...Thats fair enough, how long was the match if anyone knows?


Thirty Six minutes I've been told. That honestly sound like a lie to me.


----------



## seancarleton77

Did someone actually suggest a senior citizens spotfest (Taker vs. Triple H) is even near as good as Eddie vs. Davey.


----------



## Bubz

seancarleton77 said:


> Did someone actually suggest a senior citizens spotfest (Taker vs. Triple H) is even near as good as Eddie vs. Davey.


Yeah...that got suggested, hold your anger!


----------



## Caponex75

seancarleton77 said:


> Did someone actually suggest a senior citizens spotfest (Taker vs. Triple H) is even near as good as Eddie vs. Davey.


If you know storytelling then you can understand why. I was the one that said it and I'm sorta weighing on Eddie/Richards being better. The booking standpoint helped it tremendously where people didn't really think HHH had a chance.


----------



## Caligula

capone bring the crossfire back


----------



## SHIRLEY

Coming in here to figure out how the WM apologists are going to paint themselves back out of this corner.


----------



## Caponex75

Can people just talk about the World title match? Geez, if I knew bringing up(Or more like mentioning) HHH/Taker would make some of you girls bleed, I'd have never of brought it up.


----------



## Corey

*ROH - Best In The World 2011
*
*ROH World Television Championship*
Christopher Daniels(c) vs. El Generico - ****

_Absolutely fantastic match. The two had really great chemistry that kinda caught me off guard in the early going. Since Truth wasn't at ringside, it made the match soooo much better. Daniels showed he doesn't need a manager to draw heel heat because his Double J struts and the chants he made up himself were incredibly entertaining. And the thing with the blonde girl in the crowd was great too. I swear every single time Generico comes out of nowhere and hits a yakuza kick into a brainbuster, I don't care where you are or what company it's for, every person in the crowd GOES NUTS. This, just another example. At the end where Daniels assumes he's gonna win by countout and decided the strap the belt around his waist, that was genius. Where else have you ever seen something like that? _

*ROH World Championship*
Eddie Edwards(c) vs. Davey Richards - *****

_Wow, wow, wow. We're over 3 hours into the iPPV, and like most, I'm a little burnt out going into the main event. My first thoughts, god I hope this doesn't go as long as that tag title match, idk if I can handle it. Then about 5 minutes in, they had me hooked. Davey's wrestling in this, his counters to Eddie's signature moves in particular, were some of the best I've ever seen. As the match went on, and they kept pulling off these extraordinary spots and counters, I kept thinking of ways that the match could end without a clear cut winner, because with all the crazy shit they did, they could've easily pulled off a double countout about 4 times. But it just kept getting better and better. When Eddie hit his leg on the guardrail after the moonsault just like he did when he lost the TV Title to Daniels and the announcers pointed it out, I thought that was the end for sure. But they kept on going and I absolutely loved it. Really isn't much else to say, and incredibly fitting main event to a show called "Best In The World." I'm a little disappointed Eddie's reign is already over because there were so many more matchups for him, but this is Davey's time now. He's gonna tear this shit up. Incredible match, incredibly emotional moment afterwards. Instant classic, one of the best in ROH history._


----------



## Boom Baby

finally watched Orton vs Christian from CP.

***3/4


----------



## Nervosa

Don't get me wrong, I'm excited to see this Eddie/Davey match...

but is it 'good' the way Eddie's old singles matches against Davey, Roderick, Daniels, and Suzuki were supposedly 'good?' Because those just ended up being meaningless movez!!!?! over and over with no semblance of workover, timing, or comeback. (because Eddie doesn't know how to tell a story)

Is this better than those...or should I just save myself a rant?


----------



## Corey

Nervosa said:


> Don't get me wrong, I'm excited to see this Eddie/Davey match...
> 
> but is it 'good' the way Eddie's old singles matches against Davey, Roderick, Daniels, and Suzuki were supposedly 'good?' Because those just ended up being meaningless movez!!!?! over and over with no semblance of workover, timing, or comeback. (because Eddie doesn't know how to tell a story)
> 
> Is this better than those...or should I just save myself a rant?


You'll probably still rant, but watch it anyway. It's gonna be the consensus match of the year for a long time.


----------



## antoniomare007

*Eddie Edwards vs Davey Richards - Best In The World 2011*

****1/4-****1/2

Great match, a _REAL_ MOTYC. It wasn't perfect though and it didn't have enough positives for me to overlook some flaws. I liked what Davey was doing at the beginning working the arm and countering everything Eddie did into some kind of arm submission so I was disappointed that they switched it to Edward's leg "injury" angle (Eddie did a great job selling though). I never felt the match was peaking and neither did the crowd, who was surprisingly quiet throughout. I appreciated that there wasn't any overkill but the finish felt kinda flat as there was no real drama in any point of the match (for me atleast). 

Another think I liked is that they left open tons of stuff for future matches against each other so I'm looking forward to Davey vs Eddie III. 

PS: ROH did a bad job with the camera selection, they were a couple of times were you could clearly see both men talking to each other (and not in a kayfabe "this is part of the match" kinda way) so that sucked, lol.


----------



## Chismo

Eddie/Davey was a very good match. Nothing else. Weak story telling really hurt it. What was the point of all that great technical grappling when the story telling was weak? It felt like going through the motions for me. It felt like two baby face athletes just going for it. The finishing sequence was lame, and I mean really lame. Oh yeah, the story telling... Playing up the friendship history? Forget about it. Drama? What is that, lol? Davey's final chance? Forget about it too. Davey's post-match crybaby emotions were cringe worthy, but okay, I can live with that. It's Davey, after all. I'm not sure I can accept Davey as a new champ, Eddie was much better choice.

****3/4*


----------



## imEnigmaticAsshole

*First time tha i've watched an entire ROH show...and i've go to say....IT WAS F*CKING AWESOME....

Davey Richards/Eddie Edwards easily *****

from the buildup and hype to the actual match to the awesome post match promo from Richards...easily the match of the year and if not the best match in ROH history*


----------



## Nervosa

JoeRulz said:


> Eddie/Davey was a very good match. Nothing else. Weak story telling really hurt it. What was the point of all that great technical grappling when the story telling was weak? It felt like going through the motions for me. It felt like two baby face athletes just going for it. The finishing sequence was lame, and I mean really lame. Oh yeah, the story telling... Playing up the friendship history? Forget about it. Drama? What is that, lol? Davey's final chance? Forget about it too. Davey's post-match crybaby emotions were cringe worthy, but okay, I can live with that. It's Davey, after all. I'm not sure I can accept Davey as a new champ, Eddie was much better choice.
> 
> ****3/4*


Obviously I haven't seen it yet, but this is exactly what I was afraid of, because EVERY Eddie singles match is just him and the other guy 'just going for it' with no real story at all. Eddie, in general, is a horrible storyteller, because he has no timing or understanding of the basics when it comes to control and comebacks. This makes it sound like every single shitty Edwards singles match before it. Great action, but nothing holding it together.


----------



## Chismo

Nervosa said:


> Obviously I haven't seen it yet, but this is exactly what I was afraid of, because EVERY Eddie singles match is just him and the other guy 'just going for it' with no real story at all. Eddie, in general, is a horrible storyteller, because he has no timing or understanding of the basics when it comes to control and comebacks. This makes it sound like every single shitty Edwards singles match before it. Great action, but nothing holding it together.


I blame Davey more, tbh. Every Davey's main event in ROH has felt the same for me.


----------



## Bubz

Nervosa you should definitely watch it.

I thought the way Davey tried submitting Eddie with arm submission but couldn't do it, so he went to Eddies injured leg instead after he hit it on the guard rail was great. Eddie sold the leg really well and like I said I was dissapointed that it didn't end on a leg submission, that is my only real problem with it. The little parts such as Davey contemplating weather or not he should go after Eddies injured leg and Eddie shouting DO IT were awesome. Some of the spots were fucking amazing though.

It's Daveys time now, I hope they give him an epic long title reign.


----------



## geraldinhio

Davey Richards vs Eddie Edwards BITW 2011 . Really enjoyed it except for a few flaws . Davey gets destroyed by Eddie on the apron , get skilled by two vicious stomps (one through the table of course ) but yet 2 minutes later he acted like it never happened .He was running around the ring all of a sudden doing his usual thing .Also why did this match not end by a submission ? I get that they played on the fatigued story but what a waste of good storytelling , submission work and selling . The finish made my favourite parts of the match not matter at all . 
Everything after the spot where Davey kicked the ring post went downhill for me . The match just seemed to go flat and kinda lost my attention . I could of just been tired . When Davey won I was like , huh that's it ? It just came out of nowhere or something .
I'd give it **** , maybe a bit more , I dunno. Not Eddie's best defence , nor Davey's best title match .


----------



## Caponex75

JoeRulz said:


> Eddie/Davey was a very good match. Nothing else. Weak story telling really hurt it. What was the point of all that great technical grappling when the story telling was weak? It felt like going through the motions for me. It felt like two baby face athletes just going for it. The finishing sequence was lame, and I mean really lame. Oh yeah, the story telling... Playing up the friendship history? Forget about it. Drama? What is that, lol? Davey's final chance? Forget about it too. Davey's post-match crybaby emotions were cringe worthy, but okay, I can live with that. It's Davey, after all. I'm not sure I can accept Davey as a new champ, Eddie was much better choice.
> 
> ****3/4*


Storytelling and drama were very much there. The part of the match where both guys went into a wicked headbutt exchange because it is really both men's signature strike, Davey wrestling the prefect match, Edwards putting him in a crap position % getting pissed that Richards was treating him like a kid, and the HBK/Flair ending were all GREAT STORYTELLING. Add that and Richards pretty much murdered Eddie every time they got into a strike exchange especially at the end there. Great great match. So many little things that I probably haven't even caught yet. I just wish the roll up at the near end was done better. It would of been a great spot that played off of Eddie's title win against Strong. 


Oh and Nervousa.......why does every match you don't get don't have a story?  Eddie/Strong wasn't my favorite match but it did have a story.


----------



## antoniomare007

geraldinhio said:


> I get that they played on the fatigued story but what a waste of good storytelling , submission work and selling . The finish made my favourite parts of the match not matter at all .
> 
> Everything after the spot where Davey kicked the ring post went downhill for me . The match just seemed to go flat and kinda lost my attention . I could of just been tired . When Davey won I was like , huh that's it ? It just came out of nowhere or something .
> I'd give it **** , maybe a bit more , I dunno. Not Eddie's best defence , nor Davey's best title match .


This right here. 

I mean, the match was good. It had cool counters and spots as well as a good story (every match has a story btw, the thing is how the wrestlers tell it and execute it in the ring) but it had ZERO DRAMA. A big part of the buildup leading to the iPPV was that this match was Davey's last shot at the title and at no point in the match they made me feel that he was in danger of losing. And they kinda just went to the finish without any kind of momentum.


----------



## Bubz

antoniomare007 said:


> This right here.
> 
> I mean, the match was good. It had cool counters and spots as well as a good story (every match has a story btw, the thing is how the wrestlers tell it and execute it in the ring) but it had ZERO DRAMA. A big part of the buildup leading to the iPPV was the this match was Davey's last shot at the title and at no point in the match it made me feel that he was in danger of losing. And they kinda just went to the finish without any kind of momentum.


I respectfuly disagree. There were plenty of times when I thought eddie was going to win...the great submission he put on Davey after the exchange of submission holds and after Davey kicked the ring post I thought for sure Eddie was winning. Oh and I also think the drama was very much there. I'm a huge Richards fan though, so the thought of him never getting another title shot was horrifying!


----------



## bigbuxxx

ddog121 said:


> Best in the World:
> 
> 4 Way Elimination Tag Match ****1/2 (probably gonna get some hate for this one but I don't care, I loved it)
> Eddie Edwards v. Davey Richards ****3/4


gonna go with this. Tag match way surpassed my expectations. Edwards/Richards was awesome and my only problem with it was the consecutive near double countouts followed by one in the ring. i don't think it will be topped this year.


----------



## bigbuxxx

Caponex75 said:


> Thirty Six minutes I've been told. That honestly sound like a lie to me.


was 36 mins


----------



## Nervosa

Caponex75 said:


> Oh and Nervousa.......why does every match you don't get don't have a story?  Eddie/Strong wasn't my favorite match but it did have a story.


I don't think you worded your question very well, so I'm having trouble understanding what you are asking. Did you mean: "Nervosa...why do you accuse every match you don't understand of not having a story?"

If so, I will say, that this only happened once, with Taker/Triple H. I misworded several posts, saying that the match had NO story, when what I meant to say was that the the story the match had was just told extremely poorly. I have since apologized and clarified.

As for Roderick/Eddie....please explain the story to me, because as I said in my review of the match, and just about every Eddie singles match ever, I can't find the story at all. Maybe I am just missing it, but ever since I started questioning Eddie's match months ago, I have yet to get a good explanation on any story he has ever had in a singles match. There is never enough control in any of his matches to form a comeback or build any drama in the first place. All he does is his moveset and the occasional counter. If the Roderick match had a story, I would love to have it explained, because no one on this board has done it yet.


----------



## jawbreaker

Nervosa, please go watch Eddie/Davey. I want someone to tell me I'm not crazy for thinking the match was the worst paced thing this side of a DGUSA show.


----------



## antoniomare007

I kinda agree, one of the reason I never felt the match really picked up was because it never changed of pace (besides some suplexes and nearfalls that nobody bought into).

It's still better than having spurts of DAVEYNTENSITY~! and then going back to normal/selling though.


----------



## sXsCanadianFansXs

Looks like Davey vs. Eddie will be the controversial match of the year...

I`m going ***** for it because I haven`t felt that invested in a match in years. 

I don`t really feel like writing a 1000 word essay on why I`m giving it a `perfect` score because the argument will boil down to: `I enjoyed it more than you`.

I will never understand the argument about the match not ending in a submission being a bad thing. Believe it or not, in `real` fights, not everything ends with your strategy perfectly executed. He was working on Edwards` arm, couldn`t get a submission and switched to his leg when he injured it.

Even though he didn`t submit the leg, clearly it had some effect as he couldn`t get out of the way when Davey murdered him. What`s wrong with ending a match by knocking someone out for the 3 count? For those saying that it was a submission-fest, did you guys miss the headbutt exchanges between the two or the intense strikes to the face? Davey was working on knocking him out just as much as he was working on the leg... In fact it was because of his leg work that he was able to knock him out.

They didn`t just disregard `storytelling`.


----------



## seabs

*Davey Richards vs Eddie Edwards - ROH World Championship - ROH Best In The World 2011*
_****1/2_


----------



## Nervosa

Never fear, Jawbreaker……….the REVIEW is here!

Richards vs. Edwards
****

Warning: this is a LONG review...because there is a lot to discuss.

I actually really like the tone set from the very beginning. They hug before the match, and Eddie kinda looks like he is done hugging before Davey is. Davey puts Eddie into the ropes, and gives a clean break, but Eddie is not willing to do the same. This kinda shows the sentiment of the story leading up to the match: Eddie needs this…and it wasn’t exactly Davey’s first choice. The rest of the opening exchange is good, and Davey is clearly giving a lot of respect to Eddie’s chops. However, its Davey’s big kicks that lead to the first advantage, and we see the subtle beginnings of a strike war between kicks and chops. 

Eddie takes control and, because its Eddie, he just hits moves without really having any meaning or strategy. Davey gets control back after reversing a charge and then hitting his big apron kick after Edwards ducks the first. Edwards tries to reverse a charge, but leads to a big kick again. Even when Eddie reverses into his backpack chinbreaker, Richards is ready with the counter. Two things are being established here: 1. Davey is ready for Eddie’s counters, and 2. Davey knows his kicks are the starting point of his offense. 

There are a couple reversals and different application of arm submissions by Davey, but one problem is that he is applying them to different arms. I don’t like the inconsistency, but I like the desperation that it shows for Davey, so I can kinda let it slide. He cannot afford to lose early control. Even when Eddie manages to get to his feet, its back to the kicks for Davey in order to establish his control. Eddie starts a headbutt war, and actually wins it, but Davey says fuck it and just blasts him with the kick, and control is maintained. This is actually a bit of a tried and true puro formula: Eddie lost the exchange, but he forced Davey to quit using headbutts. Nervosa likes. 

This leads to the superplex-to-armbar, which Davey applies to the left arm. (at this point he has SORT OF decided which arm he is going after) But of course Eddie ruins it by immediately locking in the Achilles lock with no momentum whatsoever leading into it. At the very least its VERY short lived and Davey locks in a new arm submission, but I’m hating the fact that Davey hasn’t gotten any kind of control via the workover of the arm. 

Immediately after, Eddie reverses Davey’s handspring kick into his back suplex. In this reversal Eddie had to kinda set Davey down in order to do it: it would have been much better looking in one fluid motion. Nevertheless, all the momentum built up by Davey’s workover is already gone. Another potential match storyline slaughtered at the hands of double-E. I guess you can explain it away with the whole ‘he knows his partners’ moves’ thing, but this is still destroying what little story there was in the match. 

I do like Eddie using his chop the way Davey uses the kick in order to regain control. Edwards charges Richards and Davey uses one of the most awesome crossarmbreaker grabs I’ve ever seen. There’s ALMOST a story of Eddie trying to use his tried and true moves to gain control, with Davey using actual strategy on the injured arm to keep up and save his big moves for later. Of course, for that story to work, Eddie would need an actual reason for all of these little comebacks that breakup any storytelling element the armwork could provide. It would also help if I had EVER seen Eddie execute a workover session properly in his whole damn career in order for this to stand out, but I guess it’s better than what I usually get from him. 

After a nice little exchange of Davey armbreakers vs. Eddie stomps, Eddie gains control for some reason. I guess it was just so Eddie could do his moonsault and hurt his own leg. It feels like they superimposed their story onto what should have logically happened in terms of control here, but whatever; I’ll give him props for adding a level of desperation, and looking as if he needs to take some risks to make up for Davey’s applied strategy, and ultimately getting burned for it. 

The announcers bring up a great sub-story about how Eddie’s desperation with high-flying moves to the outside have often led to injuries that ultimately cost him, and I very much like that here. Eddie keeps using the leg, and its starting to cost him, but he is regaining control. His selling here is actually very good, for once. It leads to the brutal 2k1 bomb on the apron. (back work maybe?…no, that would make too much sense) Richards is actually crawling around first, which I HATE for a spot like that. What I hate even more is a countout falsey, one of my least favorite things in ROH history due to overuse in big matches. The double stomp through the table follows, and we get another countout falsey, except Sinclair stops counting for some unimaginable reason. Now THAT is stupid. 

Storyline wise, this section is pretty good: Eddie realizes he is hurt BEFORE Richards does, and knows he has to pull out the big guns NOW. But then Davey catches Eddie’s leg in the ropes out of nowhere….way too random. Eddie is then begging Davey to Dragon screw him because Davey is hesitating. I’m sorry, that sucks. I understand why Davey is hesitating, but I DON’T understand why Eddie, who was in control mere SECONDS ago, can’t manage to hit a counter during Davey’s hesitation, and actually WANTS Davey to hit the dragon screw. The dragon screw in the ropes is a good move for these two, considering the Eddie hit that VERY move on Davey, which basically led to his win in their first match. But that whole bit between the two of them made no sense. Its one thing when a half-beaten flair does it after taking a shellacking, its another thing for Eddie to do it when he JUST had control SECONDS before. I understand and even LIKE Kevin Kelly’s explanation when he says that Edwards saw Davey hesitate, and Edwards WANTED Davey to punish him for his own mistake, but that whole thing goes against Eddie’s desperation to win in this situation. 

This leads to Davey FINALLY working over the leg., which, in turn, leads to him finally unloading some of his top-level stuff. He gets an ankle submission, which Eddie counters into his own ankle lock. This, again, makes no sense. This late in the match there is 0% believability that Davey will tap out on a grapevine ankle lock when it hasn’t been worked over one iota. This completely drains any possible suspense from the submission, and the crowd is dead silent. (Davey’s reversal, however, is excellent.)

This leads to Richards kicking the ringpost, which means NOW Eddie has a reason to work the leg. He does so to gain an advantage on the top rope, but Richards regains it by punching………the WRONG FUCKING LEG. Eddie reverses the top-rope powerbomb into a rana, but its sloppy. (as are most of Eddie’s ranas) This leads to Eddie pulling out some top level moves, many of which Davey has already used, which takes some air out of them. That, and Eddie’s lariats suck. He hits the 2k1 bomb, which by now is one of the least believable finishers ever, and moves the cover into his Achilles lock, which actually WOULD have succeeded in begin a believable end to the match, if Eddie had, like, doubled the amount of logic he used in the early going. Since he DIDN’T, the crowd is dead silent here. No one in the room thinks this is the finish. Eddie turns this into, I swear it…the absolute crappiest looking cloverleaf I have ever seen. He didn’t even bother trying to get that right. Eddie’s sitdown on the roll-up attempt is almost as bad. As Edwards pulls Richards to his feet Richards hits a saito suplex. Again….there is no reason for Davey to suddenly hit this move without getting a reversal or something…he just does it out of nowhere. Eddie follows up with….sigh….the exact same thing for the exact same lack of reason. Davey’s actually annoys me more because he had taken so much abuse before that move, and he didn’t counter anything, he just got up and hit a suplex. This ends up being his last big comeback in the overall story…and it makes no sense.

They then trade forearms, and then its kick vs. chop, which is very good. Davey wins this exchange and hits some HUGE lariats, but Eddie kicks out at one. A couple big head kicks, Eddie is still in it, and then the finishing rushing head kick for the 3 count. 

Well, to be fair, there is a lot of good here. I loved the early stuff, and it set a great tone for where the match was going to go. Eddie sells very well, which is a nice change. The BASIC level of the story is a good one. (its execution is another matter, but I get what they were trying to do) If they had actually stuck to it, it would have been amazing, but as it is, not so much. The actual action is off the charts, and it always is with these guys. Davey’s reversals alone were out of this world. In all honesty, the few remnants of what MIGHT be called a story is still better than what we usually get from Edwards, and that makes this his best singles match to date…even if that isn’t saying too much. I really enjoyed the story behind Davey’s kicks, which were awesome enough that I actually like the finish here, although I agree with bubz that Eddie tapping to a leg submission would have made way more sense. That said, I actually love sxe’s explanation of why he likes the finish, and I have to say I’m totally fine with it as is. All of this is awesome enough to pull it up to ****, despite the flaws.

The problem is the Eddie matches in general need a lot more substance to make all of that action MEAN something. If you gave this five stars, or even 4 and a half, you need to address these big problems:

1.	Eddie never gets worked over, constantly, without quickly hitting some kind of offense. This diminishes not only Davey’s workover, but Eddie’s comeback, which is less impressive as a result of him never really seeming like he was in peril. In also destroys any semblance of pacing. This problem also leads to…
2.	As in all Eddie matches, no workoever means no comeback, which is so very important in the match. Anyone notice that the crowd rarely even stood up during this match, and was not only seated but QUIET near the end? When a match is paced like this, they can’t tell WHICH moment is the big one, so they sit down through it all. That is a problem.
3.	Davey forgetting not once but TWICE which limb he is working
4.	The guys DO get caught talking to each other a LOT here. Like…..every time they are both lying down. It’s really obvious and really horrible: so bad I don’t think there is a camera angle in the building that could hide it.
5.	Richards crawling around before Eddie after TAKING the 2k1 to the apron.
6.	Sinclair beginning to count out Richards after the double stomp…and then stopping for no discernable reason.
7.	The entire Dragon screw portion discussed above. First, why was Davey able to get control out of nowhere after getting worked with 2 1/2 HUGE moves? Why would Eddie, desperate for a win, beg Davey to Dragon screw him? In that amount of time, a ‘desperate’ Eddie, in control only seconds before, could have hit a counter.
8.	Richards regaining control at strange times without reversals: first for the dragon screw in the ropes, and then near the end with the saito suplex, the latter of which ended up being his ‘big comeback,’ but had no actual reason behind it.
9.	Eddie’s sloppy rana, DISGRACEFUL cloverleaf, and generally poor sit-down pin
10.	Overall pacing is generally bad, as discussed previously by Jaws and Antonio above. I will throw in that I think if they rectify problems 1 and 2, the pacing would end up being just fine, but that is just me. A little workover section and comeback in any Edwards match could have gone a long, long way. 

To link up to problem #1, here’s a fun challenge to illustrate how limited Eddie is: can anyone find me an Eddie singles match where he goes five minutes without hitting an offensive maneuver or counter? I’m fairly certain it doesn’t exist, and that should point out how the guy doesn’t understand workovers, timing, or general storytelling. Five minutes of that arm getting worked over early, and a meaningful comeback instead of just a big counter and his normal moveset would have made a world of difference here. 

In all honesty, I really want people to address the 10 problems above, because I just can’t see how they can be ignored, and in the process, to call a match with so many flaws perfect. 

Love the action, but its still Edwards, and even Davey at his best (and he was FAR from it here) can’t make up for the same Edwards problems.


----------



## topper1

Seabs said:


> *Davey Richards vs Eddie Edwards - ROH World Championship - ROH Best In The World 2011*
> _****1/2_


You know you sure do give a lot of Davey matches over **** for how much hate you give him. I almost feel like you just hate on him because its the cool thing to do because you clearly enjoy quite a bit of his work.


----------



## WOOLCOCK

topper1 said:


> You know you sure do give a lot of Davey matches over **** for how much hate you give him. I almost feel like you just hate on him because its the cool thing to do because you clearly enjoy quite a bit of his work.


I've lurked for a bit and I've seen the Davey debate on here, from what I remember Seabs often points out what Davey does that annoys him, he usually mentions the lack of long term selling, hitting moves for no reason, over the top facial expressions and Kurt Angle like finishing stretches. Still doesn't mean there may be matches where Davey tones down the things Seabs hates and thus he enjoys the match more, or Davey's opponent is good enough to make up for Davey's faults (I'll say Hero or Claudio as an example).

For me I utterly despise Kurt Angle as a worker. If he ever lays out a match his way I'm 90% likely to hate the lack of selling, the constant moves for no reason, no storytelling or psychology and making stupid mistakes in every match (him constantly locking in an ankle lock standing and getting thrown off then for the finish he grapevines the ankle and usually gets the win. Then in the next match he does a standing ankle lock and gets thrown off multiple times before....grapevining the ankle) and not forgetting his general inability to ever work over the leg/ankle of his opponent. Even Michael Cole did that at Mania. Still despite my distain for him, his NWO match against Taker as well as the Smackdown 03 match, Summerslam 01 with Austin, Ironman with Brock and Summerslam match with Mysterio are all very good matches at the minimum with 3 being classics imo. I may loathe his work and generally give credit to his opponents (especially Taker and Austin) for ensuring Angle's limitations didn't detract from the match. Bottom line even though 9/10 I'll hate his match he is capable of producing the goods. I guess with Seabs either Davey is getting better at not showing all his limitations on a consistent basis or his opponents as of late make up for them by delivering on their end


----------



## topper1

Don't get me wrong I'm well aware that Davey is far from a perfect worker but I'm just confused as to why someone who clearly enjoys his work quite a bit shits on him so much.

I to hate Kurt as well.


----------



## Bubz

I always enjoy reading your reviews Nervosa, even when I do disagree with some stuff. I guess a lot of the things you point out to be bad or flaws, I don't really notice or it doesn't bother me that much. I loved the match, I did really like the finish, I just would have prefered it to end on a submission. It's definitely my favorite match this year without doubt. Theres people like you Nervosa who take into account every little detail and really take time to analyse a match, and theres people who go on how much they enjoy a match without considering the little details, I guess i'm somewhere in the middle, I do need a good story and I do need things to make sense, but if I enjoy a match as much as that (I havn't since Davey/Tyler) then some things don't bother me at all.


----------



## Nervosa

bubz123 said:


> I always enjoy reading your reviews Nervosa, even when I do disagree with some stuff. I guess a lot of the things you point out to be bad or flaws, I don't really notice or it doesn't bother me that much. I loved the match, I did really like the finish, I just would have prefered it to end on a submission. It's definitely my favorite match this year without doubt. Theres people like you Nervosa who take into account every little detail and really take time to analyse a match, and theres people who go on how much they enjoy a match without considering the little details, I guess i'm somewhere in the middle, I do need a good story and I do need things to make sense, but if I enjoy a match as much as that (I havn't since Davey/Tyler) then some things don't bother me at all.


I guess if I ever have to pretend I didn't see something, I don't like it. I can enjoy a match way more when I don't have to explain away the errors to myself. I just can't ignore the little details, because the little things are the difference between generic 'good' and truly great. I'm glad its not a big deal to you, and I wish those things wouldn't bother me, but when I see these kind of errors, it just tells me how good a match COULD have been if it was done right........mostly because I KNOW its within their ability to do it right!

I guess the fact that I HAVE seen wrestling where I DO NOT need to justify it is the reason stuff like this bothers me so much. I can TRULY enjoy a match only when I don't need to ask questions about the logic of it. That's why I LOVE Suzuki/Nakajima from this year...it just made sense, all the way through.


----------



## antoniomare007

I'm all for overlooking details or flaws as long as the match has enough good stuff in it to compensate the bad. It's just that Eddie vs Davey II didn't have enough positives for me to overlook the negatives.



topper1 said:


> Don't get me wrong I'm well aware that Davey is far from a perfect worker but I'm just confused as to why someone who clearly enjoys his work quite a bit shits on him so much.


I do it because it's fun and because Davey does some REALLY annoying shit in some his matches


----------



## Bubz

Well, like I said, different strokes for different folks. I honestly didn't notice the things you mentioned such as Davey hitting the wrong leg or working different arms etc. I thought Eddies rana was great and it didn't look sloppy at at all and Davey hitting moves out of desperation was great such as the saito suplex. I still think the story of the two guys just wanting to prove who was the best wrestler and knowing each other so well was great as was Davey hesitating to attack Eddies injured leg. There were a lot of little things like that which were great to me.

Oh and I have to say I like some of the things people dislike about Davey lol. Apart from the ocassional bad selling, but the most part I think he is fine with it. I also like DAVEYTENSITY!!


----------



## Nervosa

bubz123 said:


> Well, like I said, different strokes for different folks. I honestly didn't notice the things you mentioned such as Davey hitting the wrong leg or working different arms etc. I thought Eddies rana was great and it didn't look sloppy at at all and Davey hitting moves out of desperation was great such as the saito suplex. I still think the story of the two guys just wanting to prove who was the best wrestler and knowing each other so well was great as was Davey hesitating to attack Eddies injured leg. There were a lot of little things like that which were great to me.
> 
> Oh and I have to say I like some of the things people dislike about Davey lol. Apart from the ocassional bad selling, but the most part I think he is fine with it. I also like DAVEYTENSITY!!


The limb target thing is always a big one for me. If this is your strategy for winning the match...how can you get that wrong? One place we differ is that I think the story of 'who is the better wrestler' can be told MUCH better with proper selling, control, and comebacks. (see the early Nigel vs. Dragon matches)

I also like Daveytensity. Davey actually used to sell really logically (see his match vs. shingo.......its amazing!) But lately its really fallen off, espeically since Eddie started getting over. (if you ask me, that's the big problem here)


----------



## -Mystery-

Tornado tag match from Raw.

Awesome action and the crowd was hot as fuck.


----------



## antoniomare007

agreed.

Such a shame that WWE doesn't give a shit about tag team wrestling anymore, they clearly have the talent for awesome matches like Rey/Riley vs Miz/Zwagger


----------



## seancarleton77

Punk's promo is the greatest thing from any wrestling company in 2011. The tag match was in my opinion a 4 star match, but nothing compares to your God CM Punk shooting from the heart. Looks like WWE may be getting edgier than ever before.


----------



## antoniomare007

That promo is why I still watch WWE. The may suck or be stale for 10 months but once in a while they make something soooo fucking good that takes me back to when I was 13 years old.


----------



## -Mystery-

antoniomare007 said:


> That promo is why I still watch WWE. The may suck or be stale for 10 months but once in a while they make something soooo fucking good that takes me back to when I was 13 years old.


This.

The Mysterio/Riley vs. Miz/Swagger match and more importantly Punk's promo once again have me interested in the WWE. It's promos like that which nearly make up for the months upon months of boring television they produce. Just a great fucking hour of television.


----------



## Caponex75

I'm going to try to kill two birds with one stone so I'm going explain why this match is awesome and argue points. I don't know if I will argue the next one because honestly......I'm really really lazy.



Nervosa said:


> Never fear, Jawbreaker……….the REVIEW is here!
> 
> Richards vs. Edwards
> ****
> 
> Warning: this is a LONG review...because there is a lot to discuss.
> 
> I actually really like the tone set from the very beginning. They hug before the match, and Eddie kinda looks like he is done hugging before Davey is. Davey puts Eddie into the ropes, and gives a clean break, but Eddie is not willing to do the same. This kinda shows the sentiment of the story leading up to the match: Eddie needs this…and it wasn’t exactly Davey’s first choice. The rest of the opening exchange is good, and Davey is clearly giving a lot of respect to Eddie’s chops. However, its Davey’s big kicks that lead to the first advantage, and we see the subtle beginnings of a strike war between kicks and chops.


It isn't about kicks and chops in the match. It's about Eddie getting into a strike exchange with Richards and Richards putting him on his ass. Davey pretty much takes control at this point and starts going after the torso area(Hitting suplexes, stretching him, and going to the body with knees). It could be just to throw Edwards off who probably be expecting leg/arm work. 


> Eddie takes control and, because its Eddie, he just hits moves without really having any meaning or strategy. Davey gets control back after reversing a charge and then hitting his big apron kick after Edwards ducks the first. Edwards tries to reverse a charge, but leads to a big kick again.


You look down on Eddie to much. Eddie pretty much does the same with gutwrenching Richards on his midsection and putting on a mini abdominal stretch. Then when Richards starts coming, he starts just hitting him......_really really hard_.



> Even when Eddie reverses into his backpack chinbreaker, Richards is ready with the counter. Two things are being established here: 1. Davey is ready for Eddie’s counters, and 2. Davey knows his kicks are the starting point of his offense.There are a couple reversals and different application of arm submissions by Davey, but one problem is that he is applying them to different arms. I don’t like the inconsistency, but I like the desperation that it shows for Davey, so I can kinda let it slide. He cannot afford to lose early control.



This is pretty much Richards control segment honestly. Eddie isn't throwing offense that isn't getting him put a arm submissions and Richards is pretty much all over him. This reminds me of MMA fight where if one guys shows weakness(Such as being knocked silly or limping), the other guy is just relentless. Richards is just on Eddie so bad that he doesn't really matter which arm he gives him, the point is that it isn't Eddie Edwards arm anymore but it is Davey Richards. I can honestly say when I was watching this match live that I knew we were about 3 or 5 minutes in but I was actually buying these as finishes. Richards is bringing the pressure so much on Eddie then when Eddie tries to counter with a roll up, Richards is already freaking on it. Guy is just wrestling the best match ever


> Even when Eddie manages to get to his feet, its back to the kicks for Davey in order to establish his control. Eddie starts a headbutt war, and actually wins it, but Davey says fuck it and just blasts him with the kick, and control is maintained. This is actually a bit of a tried and true puro formula: Eddie lost the exchange, but he forced Davey to quit using headbutts. Nervosa likes.


Not really. I don't know if you were paying attention to it but Richards just goes up and blasts Eddie with a headbutt to the mouth. It was just so much of their schtick that nether man was going to give it but Richards, being the mature one, knows this ain't going nowhere and blasts Edwards face off with a kick. Still to prove that he is the alpha man, Richards pretty much says "Oh yeah btw, eat this" and just headbutts the shit out of Edwards. I luv it! Pretty much Ricards being a dick to prove he is the better man


> This leads to the superplex-to-armbar, which Davey applies to the left arm. (at this point he has SORT OF decided which arm he is going after) But of course Eddie ruins it by immediately locking in the Achilles lock with no momentum whatsoever leading into it. At the very least its VERY short lived and Davey locks in a new arm submission, but I’m hating the fact that Davey hasn’t gotten any kind of control via the workover of the arm.


Pretty much that was the idea to always be the arm that he can get his hands on. Makes the match feel more intense and gives it a MMA like feel. How did Eddie ruin it? This is one of the pivotal parts of the story of Richards wrestling a prefect match because what does he do? He counters that shit into ANOTHER FREAKING ARMBAR! As I said before, this is pretty much Richards control segment because Eddie is really getting little offense and really trying to comeback.



> Immediately after, Eddie reverses Davey’s handspring kick into his back suplex. In this reversal Eddie had to kinda set Davey down in order to do it: it would have been much better looking in one fluid motion. Nevertheless, all the momentum built up by Davey’s workover is already gone. Another potential match storyline slaughtered at the hands of double-E. I guess you can explain it away with the whole ‘he knows his partners’ moves’ thing, but this is still destroying what little story there was in the match.


:no:

No it doesn't. It's a come back....not killing the match. When Richards start going for trademark moves such as the Damage Reflex or the Alarm clock, Edwards puts him down hard. You would think he would since he has seen him do this FOR YEARS as a tag team partner. 



> I do like Eddie using his chop the way Davey uses the kick in order to regain control. Edwards charges Richards and Davey uses one of the most awesome crossarmbreaker grabs I’ve ever seen. There’s ALMOST a story of Eddie trying to use his tried and true moves to gain control, with Davey using actual strategy on the injured arm to keep up and save his big moves for later. Of course, for that story to work, Eddie would need an actual reason for all of these little comebacks that breakup any storytelling element the armwork could provide. It would also help if I had EVER seen Eddie execute a workover session properly in his whole damn career in order for this to stand out, but I guess it’s better than what I usually get from him.


Wasn't really the chop that got him control but it is just to help keep it. Actually Richards goes after the right arm this time :lol: Don't know if you noticed that. So Richards is mostly working with what he could get so it this builds allot of drama. Especially since it seems to be around the same move. You really are just hating on Edwards it seems




> After a nice little exchange of Davey armbreakers vs. Eddie stomps, Eddie gains control for some reason.


Wait....WHAT?!You mean Eddie stomping on Richards fucking face isn't a good reason for him to get control?!? You can't be serious. Especially a man who in his last title match got a concussion.


> I guess it was just so Eddie could do his moonsault and hurt his own leg. It feels like they superimposed their story onto what should have logically happened in terms of control here, but whatever; I’ll give him props for adding a level of desperation, and looking as if he needs to take some risks to make up for Davey’s applied strategy, and ultimately getting burned for it.


Remember when I brought up in Taker/HHH that HHH was selling his arm even though no one had attacked it? Same here. Eddie did a great job making it seem like his chop/tiger suplex is more of a improvised idea instead of part of the match. He doesn't even do his kip up but just gets up normally after a dropkick. I'm surprised you didn't mention another important part in the match up where Edwards tries to improvise his comeback even more with a suplex and ends up getting into a stand up fight with Richards. Why I say this is important because Richards ROCKS HIS WORLD with Shingo like forearm combination. He ends up being able to shut it down but the developing story here is that Richards stand up is just so much better than Eddies. 



> It leads to the brutal 2k1 bomb on the apron. (back work maybe?…no, that would make too much sense) Richards is actually crawling around first, which I HATE for a spot like that. What I hate even more is a countout falsey, one of my least favorite things in ROH history due to overuse in big matches. The double stomp through the table follows, and we get another countout falsey, except Sinclair stops counting for some unimaginable reason. Now THAT is stupid.


Sinclair doesn't stop counting for no reason......it's because Eddie was in the middle of out of the ring and out of the ring. Thus breaking the count. This match didn't really have a false count out attempt. Both times, they made it obvious Richards was going to make it back to the ring.



> Storyline wise, this section is pretty good: Eddie realizes he is hurt BEFORE Richards does, and knows he has to pull out the big guns NOW. But then Davey catches Eddie’s leg in the ropes out of nowhere….way too random. Eddie is then begging Davey to Dragon screw him because Davey is hesitating. I’m sorry, that sucks. I understand why Davey is hesitating, but I DON’T understand why Eddie, who was in control mere SECONDS ago, can’t manage to hit a counter during Davey’s hesitation, and actually WANTS Davey to hit the dragon screw. The dragon screw in the ropes is a good move for these two, considering the Eddie hit that VERY move on Davey, which basically led to his win in their first match. But that whole bit between the two of them made no sense.


You got it wrong. Davey realized Eddie was hurt a while ago but here is the story, Eddie is taking Richards very seriously and going to lengths to beat him(Such as the double stomp through the table and the 2k1 apron bomb) but Richards doesn't want to hurt his little brother. Edwards does not appreciate that shit. So when Richards kicks Edwards(Who is trying to come outside and possibly hit more big moves on Richards) and doesn't follow up on the Dragon screw like he normally would, Edwards feels like he is getting treated like a child.....not a opponent. It's comparable to two brothers playing Street Fighter and the big brother not playing seriously while the younger brother is going all out. I'm talking throwing Hadokens, spinning kicks, and doing ultra super moves while his brother has the opportunities to put him down but he doesn't. That's who Eddie Edwards is. The little kid that is willing to try to kill his brother to win while his bigger brother doesn't because he _cares_ for him to much.

Sooooo, instead of trying to get out, Eddie wants him to cut the freaking umbilical cord and treat him like a MAN. Eddie's ego got him the match and Eddie's ego is about to cost him his leg.....his already INJURED leg. Sometimes, there really isn't more of a devastating loss then for a man's pride to be hurt. The promos leading up to this pretty much explained this >_>





> This leads to Davey FINALLY working over the leg., which, in turn, leads to him finally unloading some of his top-level stuff. He gets an ankle submission, which Eddie counters into his own ankle lock. This, again, makes no sense. This late in the match there is 0% believability that Davey will tap out on a grapevine ankle lock when it hasn’t been worked over one iota. This completely drains any possible suspense from the submission, and the crowd is dead silent. (Davey’s reversal, however, is excellent.)


This makes no sense.....so Eddie isn't supposed to try to turn defense into offense? DO NOT WANT! Anyway Eddie's grapevine almost got me but what really got me was Richards freaking counter. Now if you have been paying attention, Richards has been making bitches slap the canvas to this ankle lock like crazy. No One has survived that move. No one. He beat Stevens with it, he beats Daniels with it, and it was the ending to the last match on HDnet against Strong & KOW. Richards had taken the kid gloves off majorly and Eddie pulls it out because he is direct descendant of freaking Samson! Also something you didn't note but Richards, with the new found appreciation for his opponent, tries to murder Edwards with a powerbomb off the apron. Let us not forget that Richards wasn't even going for kill moves till this past two minutes.



> This leads to Richards kicking the ringpost, which means NOW Eddie has a reason to work the leg. He does so to gain an advantage on the top rope, but Richards regains it by punching………the WRONG FUCKING LEG.


I'm honestly going to call the "who cares" card. Doesn't change that Richards still punching another man in a leg.....especially a man that was just put in a indian death anklelock that attacks both legs really.




> Eddie’s sitdown on the roll-up attempt is almost as bad.


I'll only agree with this really because the rest just seems to hate on Eddie. The counter to the sitdown could of been done much better and could of huge especially with the story around it but it was just really really sloppy.



> As Edwards pulls Richards to his feet Richards hits a saito suplex. Again….there is no reason for Davey to suddenly hit this move without getting a reversal or something…he just does it out of nowhere. Eddie follows up with….sigh….the exact same thing for the exact same lack of reason. Davey’s actually annoys me more because he had taken so much abuse before that move, and he didn’t counter anything, he just got up and hit a suplex. This ends up being his last big comeback in the overall story…and it makes no sense.
> 
> What? They were surprise/desperate saito suplexes...pretty much just like Richards did to Shingo in 2009. The reason why this is important because it leads to both men just being gassed. So without any energy to follow up with big flashy or powerful moves, where does this leaves both men with? Freedom and Justice AKA DEM HANDS. However, if you have been paying attention, Richards has been beating Edwards around as if they were reenacting Chris Brown's happy go fun time with Rhiana. Richards just keeps putting Edwards on his @$$. Again and again. While Edwards spirit is there and he tries to fire himself up after kicking out of that roaring lariat, Richards just keeps hitting him harder and harder. Big brother then looks in his little brother's eyes and tells him "You'll always be my brother".....then he flash kicks his dreams away. Truly a great story.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 4.	The guys DO get caught talking to each other a LOT here. Like…..every time they are both lying down. It’s really obvious and really horrible: so bad I don’t think there is a camera angle in the building that could
> 
> 
> 
> Well the times they did, it seemed the first time they were doing just so they could make it look like the injury angle was real. The second time they looked as if they were just blatantly doing it before that final strike exchange.
> 
> Oh and Strong/Edwards story was pretty much Strong treating Eddie as a non threat. He even blatantly calls Eddie "The Other Wolf" during his entrance. To sum it all up because I'm tired of typing, what Roderick got for taking Eddie so lightly was a bloody forehead, a bloody chest, and loss in chop wars which is Roddy's freaking schtick. The first part of the match was put together terribly though.
Click to expand...


----------



## bigbuxxx

antoniomare007 said:


> That promo is why I still watch WWE. The may suck or be stale for 10 months but once in a while they make something soooo fucking good that takes me back to when I was 13 years old.


everybody said this after the nexus invasion last june and that had awesome payoffs...


----------



## antoniomare007

that doesn't take away the fact that I watched that amazing Nexus segment for the 1st time and was marking out like a little kid wondering what the fuck was going to happen next. That's the kind of feeling I love to get when I watch wrestling and even if it only happens a few times (and ends up being ruined by bad booking) it's worth the wait.


----------



## Ali Dia

weighing in on the Davey/Eddie debate. I had the match ****1/2. I have it as my third favorite Davey match. His match with Aries at AvR is in my opinion Davey's best match in the U.S which i had at ****3/4 (havent seen much of his Japan work) and my second favorite Davey match was with Roddy at HTCS which I also had at ****1/2. I can understand those that give his match with Eddie ***** though. Emotion was most certainly there and easy to get lost in. But it to me was kind of like Aries v Punk from DBD 3. Its a ****1/2 match but people can get lost in the post match which helps bump up their rating.


----------



## Thefinalcountdown

i have the just the match at **** but the post match stuff and the story behind the makes it ****1/2...


----------



## seabs

topper1 said:


> You know you sure do give a lot of Davey matches over **** for how much hate you give him. I almost feel like you just hate on him because its the cool thing to do because you clearly enjoy quite a bit of his work.


*Confident we've had this conversation before. When Davey doesn't do try to hard to have a classic and he doesn't do all of that over the top intensity nonsense then he's a good wrestler. I don't hate Davey as a wrestler, I just hate some of the stupid stuff he does in major matches. *


----------



## Emperor DC

The good thing about the match was the fact that Davey was a lot more grounded, literally, in how he conducted his stuff during the match. There was very little of this DAVEYTENSITY shit, which was good to see.


----------



## Bubz

IMO Davey/Eddie is Easily Eddie's best match and probably Davey's second best match ever if not his best, I have to agree with capone that Davey wrestled a near perfect match.


----------



## seabs

*Eddie's so underrated atm. Might be because he doesn't bust out huge fancy looking spots like Davey, Hero and Claudio can but fuck me he's turning into an awesome worker which is really fresh for an Indy guy. He's about as good of an underdog worker that there is going anywhere in wrestling right now and he can tell a story better than most on the Indies. That was one of the main reasons why I didn't want to see him drop the belt this soon because his main event matches were really fresh and pretty great.*


----------



## Ali Dia

Seabs said:


> *Eddie's so underrated atm. Might be because he doesn't bust out huge fancy looking spots like Davey, Hero and Claudio can but fuck me he's turning into an awesome worker which is really fresh for an Indy guy. He's about as good of an underdog worker that there is going anywhere in wrestling right now and he can tell a story better than most on the Indies. That was one of the main reasons why I didn't want to see him drop the belt this soon because his main event matches were really fresh and pretty great.*


kind of disagree here. I find a lot of Eddie's matches to be very disjointed. I guess I'd describe it similar to the way i see Alex Shelley as a singles wrestler. They have the moves, but they seem to transition from move to move with no rhyme or reason. Mind you Eddie's match with Daniels at HTCS was awesome and was the first match where i really started to jump on the Eddie bandwagon, but I personally dont feel he's quite there yet. But he's close.


----------



## Bubz

I really like Eddie, he's not at Davey's level quite yet but he's getting there.


----------



## WOOLCOCK

antoniomare007 said:


> That promo is why I still watch WWE. The may suck or be stale for 10 months but once in a while they make something soooo fucking good that takes me back to when I was 13 years old.


Agreed. I mainly still watch just for the generally good TV matches (Smackdown and Superstars primarily) they give us on a regular basis. That being said Smackdown from mania-HIAC 2009, the Nexus invasion and primarily the build for Survivor Series 2010, the Rock return (I don't even care for him that much but the buzz was tremendous) and finally the Punk angle all show what WWE can be like when they actually give a damn. It also marks 3 June's in 3 years where a big angle has developed, you could probably even extend it to 2008 when Jericho was in the process of the Michaels fued.


----------



## Bubz

That promo was epic! Really looking forward to where it goes now. Punk is so damn good! The best thing in WWE this year.

However...The Steen segments from BITW are the best non-wrestling things to happen in the whole of wrestling for ages.


----------



## wheelofsteel

Still Takin' Breath After The ROH World Title Bout From Best In The World. One Of The Best Matches Ever As Time Goes By. Greetings To All.


----------



## TheAce

wow, in 48 hours I saw two of my favorite non wrestling moments since Steen turned on Generico at FB 09....great stuff by Punk and Steen......

If Punk is taking time off and gets to spend a little time on the Indy's during his break, getting him and Steen in an ROH ring together would be EPIC.


----------



## EffectRaven

Generico vs. Daniels @ Best in the World ****

Awesome match. Daniels' heel work is absolute gold and Generico was his usual epic self.

Richards vs. Edwards @ Best in the World ****1/2

Epic stuff here from two of the best in the world. Just a tremendous wrestling match with great counters, action and spots. Awesome ending as well. Probably my MOTY so far


----------



## Zatiel

I'm split on the ending to Richards/Edwards. The crowd hurt my enjoyment of it; the night clearly burned them out, and by the fake-out on the double TKO they were really quiet. Richards finished Edwards with a kick he used much earlier in the match. It's a fun punt kick, and in a way plays into Richards's progressive approach. Just like bringing back the Buzzsaw Kick as a finisher, this tries to show any move can end a match. But showing up earlier rather than being unique to the ending, and rather than being part of its own sequence, made it feel kind of contrived and anticlimactic, despite the small sequence being part of a bunch of sequences that should knock out a guy.

Love the match on the whole. Just thinking about it critically.


----------



## rafz

AJPW Champion Carnival 09/04
_Yuji Nagata vs. Suwama _******

NJPW Best of the Super Jr. XIII 28/05
_KUSHIDA vs. Kota Ibushi _******

ROH Best In The World
_Eddie Edwards vs. Davey Richards _*****1/2*


----------



## Nervosa

Honestly, Capone, I generally really do like your posts, but your explanation of control and comebacks is nothing short of dumbfounding. 



Caponex75 said:


> It isn't about kicks and chops in the match. It's about Eddie getting into a strike exchange with Richards and Richards putting him on his ass. Davey pretty much takes control at this point and starts going after the torso area(Hitting suplexes, stretching him, and going to the body with knees). It could be just to throw Edwards off who probably be expecting leg/arm work.


Um…yes, it is, and its something I was actually complementing about the match. I also didn’t say its ALL about kicks and chops, I just said it was something subtle, which is probably why you missed it. Davey is straight up SCARED of getting chopped early in the match, rolling all the way out of the chain wrestling. And just look at the final stretch: right at the end, its chop vs. kick. It’s obviously not the MOST important thing, but they are clearly imitating puro by using the base strike as a level of control. When Eddie does regain early control its with….as I said previously……his chop. 

You’re idea about Davey working the midsection is pretty non-existent. Yes, he kicks him there and knees him there….but that’s what Richards always does, and Eddie doesn’t even sell any of it after the initial blows. You are, again, putting a story in where it doesn’t exist, like with Triple H’s arm.



> You look down on Eddie to much. Eddie pretty much does the same with gutwrenching Richards on his midsection and putting on a mini abdominal stretch. Then when Richards starts coming, he starts just hitting him......_really really hard_.


Again, you giving Edwards credit for the stretch is reading way too much in an abdominal work story that was never there. All they were doing is trading early control moves and feeling each other out: there was no strategy in this early section, and if there was supposed to be, neither man sold it one bit. 

Once again, how does Davey regain control after this section? O yeah, the kick. The kick and the chop are both being used as the basic level of attack throughout the match. You’re not even acknowledging the things that were ACTUALLY good in the match. 



> This is pretty much Richards control segment honestly.


No, it isn’t. A control segment would be him actually….I don’t know…controlling Edwards, non-stop, without Edwards being able to hit moves whenever he wants. Control implies that Davey has Eddie where he wants him for an extended period of time and that is never true throughout the whole match. Edwards continually landing offense just shows that Richards is not in any kind of control.



> Eddie isn't throwing offense that isn't getting him put a arm submissions and Richards is pretty much all over him.


Yes, Eddie is, actually. All during Davey’s ‘armwork’ period, Eddie is constantly able to still hit moves, breaking up any storyline direction possible. The headbutts on the top rope (an exchange he forces Richards to back out of) the Achilles lock, the reversal of the handspring kick into the back suplex, charging knees, a fisherman suplex, and a gutbuster are all moves that happened during what you are claiming to be “pretty much a Richards control segment.” The fact that Eddie hit all those moves during that time makes it…..NOT a control segment. And why? Because there was never any….ahem…control! 



> This reminds me of MMA fight where if one guys shows weakness(Such as being knocked silly or limping), the other guy is just relentless. Richards is just on Eddie so bad that he doesn't really matter which arm he gives him, the point is that it isn't Eddie Edwards arm anymore but it is Davey Richards.


The difference is that in MMA, the guy knocked silly doesn’t get up and immediately land offense that is equal to or better than his opponent.

O, and now you are making excuses for him forgetting which arm he is working, instead of acknowledging that he forgot. Sorry, but there’s no way he did it on purpose just to show how ‘on him,’ he is…so it was a mistake. Stop trying to explain it and just admit it. 



> I can honestly say when I was watching this match live that I knew we were about 3 or 5 minutes in but I was actually buying these as finishes.


Then you are alone. Once again, I am required to suggest the possibility of live bias, here. 



> I don't know if you were paying attention to it but Richards just goes up and blasts Eddie with a headbutt to the mouth. It was just so much of their schtick that nether man was going to give it but Richards, being the mature one, knows this ain't going nowhere and blasts Edwards face off with a kick. Still to prove that he is the alpha man, Richards pretty much says "Oh yeah btw, eat this" and just headbutts the shit out of Edwards. I luv it! Pretty much Ricards being a dick to prove he is the better man.


Yes, I did notice it, but you’re stretching it quite a bit to say Richards just did the kick because he thought the headbutts was going nowhere. He’s Davey fucking Richards….his character would NEVER believe he could be out-headbutted... evem when Eddie is doing that very thing. Again, I am commenting on something these two did right, and you are just showing that you didn’t even notice.

Yeah, he hit a headbutt after the kick, but the point is that he NEEDED the kick to regain the advantage. If he thought he would win the headbutt war, why would he even go to the kick? He wouldn’t; he would just plow Eddie through. But because he knew Eddie was gaining the advantage through the headbutts (if, for no other reason, slight leverage) he dropped down for the kick, and then hit the headubtt to put an exclamation point on it. This, again, is another puro storyline formula, but I guess it was wasted on you when you’re just writing your own story into the match anyway. 



> Pretty much that was the idea to always be the arm that he can get his hands on. Makes the match feel more intense and gives it a MMA like feel. How did Eddie ruin it? This is one of the pivotal parts of the story of Richards wrestling a prefect match because what does he do? He counters that shit into ANOTHER FREAKING ARMBAR! As I said before, this is pretty much Richards control segment because Eddie is really getting little offense and really trying to comeback.


I understand that the left arm was the target, but that doesn’t change the fact that he messed it up earlier. 

Eddie ruined it for reasons mentioned above: it was SUPPOSED to be a Davey control segment, but Eddie honestly cannot go five minutes without needing to get an offensive move in. How is Davey wrestling a perfect match when NONE of his offense can keep Eddie from just getting up and hitting his own normal shit? All that does is make all Davey look weak because all of his moves had no effect on Eddie. It doesn’t matter that Eddie is getting ‘little offense,’ if Davey’s workover was even sort of affective, there’s no reason for him to get ANY offense at all. Eddie’s inability to actually let himself get worked over makes it look like Davey is wrestling ineffectively, not ‘perfectly.’ If Eddie had actually just NOT hit all his moves out of nowhere, I would agree with EVERYTHING you said, EVEN about Davey wrestling ‘the perfect match.’ That story would have been great if Eddie had actually taken the beating without immediately getting back on offense….but he didn’t do that, and it ruined the entire section, and your entire point. 



> No it doesn't. It's a come back....not killing the match. When Richards start going for trademark moves such as the Damage Reflex or the Alarm clock, Edwards puts him down hard. You would think he would since he has seen him do this FOR YEARS as a tag team partner.


And see, this just shows how much you fail to comprehend what a comeback really is. How in the world can this be a comeback when Eddie hasn’t actually had to ‘come back,’ from anything? Maybe you don’t understand why a workoever with NO interruptions is so important in big matches, so I’ll go back to basics and explain it to you. When a wrestler is worked over, it is done to make him look desperate. When he looks desperate, it means when he charges into his comeback, that it actually MEANS something because the crowd can remember his desperation. So if you don’t get worked over, continuously, the crowd can’t even see the comeback, because you’re just doing what you did before: hitting a move every couple minutes without ever looking like you’re in trouble. No workover, no comeback. Eddie didn’t allow himself to get worked over, so there is no way this can be considered a comeback. 

Besides, this CAN’T be the comeback because even the TIMING is off. Davey is back to an arm submission seconds after the big reversal. 



> Wasn't really the chop that got him control but it is just to help keep it. Actually Richards goes after the right arm this time :lol: Don't know if you noticed that. So Richards is mostly working with what he could get so it this builds allot of drama. Especially since it seems to be around the same move. You really are just hating on Edwards it seems.


Yes, as I said, Richards eventually does decide on the left arm, it just takes him a really long time before he actually applies some focus. It’s still a flaw though, because we as a wrestling audience know that Richards MEANT to be working the same arm. If you’re actually implying he worked different arms on purpose, you’re insane. That said, I’ll bet the plan was actually to work the right arm, since that was the one Edwards injured. Now that I think of it, I actually think it makes no sense for Davey to work both arms, and THEN actually decide to focus on the left when the right is the previously injured one. Thanks for helping me find another flaw, Capone!



> Wait....WHAT?!You mean Eddie stomping on Richards fucking face isn't a good reason for him to get control?!? You can't be serious. Especially a man who in his last title match got a concussion.


When he SHOULD have been actually selling the arm damage and being worked over in order to make his comeback actually mean something…..yes, that’s not a good enough reason. It’s not even that the stomps themselves are the problem: it’s the horrible timing and storytelling of it. 



> Remember when I brought up in Taker/HHH that HHH was selling his arm even though no one had attacked it? Same here.


Actually I do remember. At least what you’re talking about in this match ACTUALLY HAPPENED instead of you just making it up like in the Mania match.



> Eddie did a great job making it seem like his chop/tiger suplex is more of a improvised idea instead of part of the match. He doesn't even do his kip up but just gets up normally after a dropkick. I'm surprised you didn't mention another important part in the match up where Edwards tries to improvise his comeback even more with a suplex and ends up getting into a stand up fight with Richards. Why I say this is important because Richards ROCKS HIS WORLD with Shingo like forearm combination. He ends up being able to shut it down but the developing story here is that Richards stand up is just so much better than Eddies.


Wait, didn’t you say earlier that Eddie’s reversal of the handspring kick was when the comeback started? See Capone, YOU can’t even tell when the comeback is happening here, because Eddie never got worked over enough to show it. And don’t tell me it was ALL his comeback, because Davey gets like two arm submissions in between, which you were even claiming were believable enough to be finishers.

The ‘Shingo’ combination wasn’t mentioned because even after Richards UNLOADS with the forearms, what does Eddie do? Does he sell it at all in order to keep up your idea of Richards’ clearly superior standup? No, Davey runs the ropes and Eddie immediately hits a kick. Potential control….obliterated again.



> Sinclair doesn't stop counting for no reason......it's because Eddie was in the middle of out of the ring and out of the ring. Thus breaking the count.


Bad typing aside, do I have to explain wrestling rules to you, too? Once Edwards gets back in the ring, Sinclair just stands there and paces instead of counting out Richards. The count is supposed to continue EVEN when Edwards re-enters the ring. Now if Edwards LEAVES again, sure the count restarts, but not when he just rolls in and lies there. That’s wrestling 101, man.



> This match didn't really have a false count out attempt. Both times, they made it obvious Richards was going to make it back to the ring.


I agree with you, but I am pretty sure the second was MEANT to be one that Sinclair screwed up.



> You got it wrong. Davey realized Eddie was hurt a while ago but here is the story, Eddie is taking Richards very seriously and going to lengths to beat him(Such as the double stomp through the table and the 2k1 apron bomb) but Richards doesn't want to hurt his little brother. Edwards does not appreciate that shit. So when Richards kicks Edwards(Who is trying to come outside and possibly hit more big moves on Richards) and doesn't follow up on the Dragon screw like he normally would, Edwards feels like he is getting treated like a child.....not a opponent. It's comparable to two brothers playing Street Fighter and the big brother not playing seriously while the younger brother is going all out. I'm talking throwing Hadokens, spinning kicks, and doing ultra super moves while his brother has the opportunities to put him down but he doesn't. That's who Eddie Edwards is. The little kid that is willing to try to kill his brother to win while his bigger brother doesn't because he _cares_ for him to much. Sooooo, instead of trying to get out, Eddie wants him to cut the freaking umbilical cord and treat him like a MAN. Eddie's ego got him the match and Eddie's ego is about to cost him his leg.....his already INJURED leg. Sometimes, there really isn't more of a devastating loss then for a man's pride to be hurt. The promos leading up to this pretty much explained this >_>[/


Well then which is it? Is Eddie the ‘little brother’ character or the ‘desperate champion?’ character? To me, the prematch promos didn’t make this look like Eddie was out for just pride or ego: it makes him look like a champion desperate to prove that he is actually the best. And a desperate champion would never ever do what he did in that spot. I’m not even sure a ‘brother’ as they call each other, would do that.

Example? Sure! Go all the way back to FYF:Finale. In an effort to toughen each other up, the Briscoes choose to wrestle each other. Early on, Jay is like Eddie, going all out to win, but Mark is noticeably holding back because ‘they’re brothers.’ What does Jay do? Does he stand there and demand Mark hurt him? Fuck no. He stomps the shit out of him and basically says that if Mark doesn’t bring his best, Jay intends to slaughter him. If they were going for what you claim they were going for, all they did was make Eddie look like an illogical dupe. 



> This makes no sense.....so Eddie isn't supposed to try to turn defense into offense? DO NOT WANT! Anyway Eddie's grapevine almost got me but what really got me was Richards freaking counter. Now if you have been paying attention, Richards has been making bitches slap the canvas to this ankle lock like crazy. No One has survived that move. No one. He beat Stevens with it, he beats Daniels with it, and it was the ending to the last match on HDnet against Strong & KOW. Richards had taken the kid gloves off majorly and Eddie pulls it out because he is direct descendant of freaking Samson! Also something you didn't note but Richards, with the new found appreciation for his opponent, tries to murder Edwards with a powerbomb off the apron. Let us not forget that Richards wasn't even going for kill moves till this past two minutes.


If Eddie wants his comeback to mean something, NO HE SHOULD NO HAVE ANY OFFENSE during what is supposed to be a workover. 

You also clearly weren’t paying attention to my original critique. I’m FINE with a Richards submission here, and I DO think it’s believable. I love this ankle lock, here. I was clearly talking about EDDIE’s leg submission on a leg that had barely been touched thusfar, rendering it completely unbelievable and without any drama. Why should I believe Eddie can execute Davey’s world-beating submission nearly as good as Davey can? 

And don’t think that I forgot the powerbomb attempt, because its pretty famous in my mind as the move he only got the chance to set up because he struck Eddie in the WRONG leg. 

Also, I don’t know about you, but I consider arm submissions on an injured arm and leg submission on an injured leg as much better ‘kill moves,’ than Eddie’s aimless offense. 



> I'm honestly going to call the "who cares" card. Doesn't change that Richards still punching another man in a leg.....especially a man that was just put in a indian death anklelock that attacks both legs really.


Who cares, you ask? People who want their wrestling matches to make sense. 

You’re telling me a few measley punches to a perfectly healthy leg is going to completely halt Eddie’s ability to get position on the top rope? Not even close. 



> I'll only agree with this really because the rest just seems to hate on Eddie. The counter to the sitdown could of been done much better and could of huge especially with the story around it but it was just really really sloppy.


I can’t believe you’re agreeing on the sitdown and not that god-awful cloverleaf. That thing was an abomination. Just some horrible, disgraceful, execution, there. 



> What? They were surprise/desperate saito suplexes...pretty much just like Richards did to Shingo in 2009.


No, In the Shingo match, Richards did not take several moves, and then just get up and hit a suplex. He managed to roll free of several attempts by Shingo to pick him up, buring himself time while Shingo barks at the ref, and THEN does his offense. That’s exactly what he DOES NOT do here. When you take several moves in a row, you logically have to have a reversal, some stalling, or a block of some kind before hitting ANY of your own shit. To not do so diminishes the other man’s moves.



> The reason why this is important because it leads to both men just being gassed. So without any energy to follow up with big flashy or powerful moves, where does this leaves both men with? Freedom and Justice AKA DEM HANDS. However, if you have been paying attention, Richards has been beating Edwards around as if they were reenacting Chris Brown's happy go fun time with Rhiana. Richards just keeps putting Edwards on his @$$. Again and again. While Edwards spirit is there and he tries to fire himself up after kicking out of that roaring lariat, Richards just keeps hitting him harder and harder. Big brother then looks in his little brother's eyes and tells him "You'll always be my brother".....then he flash kicks his dreams away. Truly a great story.


I really don’t know why you bothered writing all of this. I pretty much agreed with all of it in my original review, and even said all the striking in and surrounding the finish was very good. The only part I hated was the saito suplex: the rest of the finish was fine. I wouldn’t say ‘great,’ but fine. 



> Well the times they did, it seemed the first time they were doing just so they could make it look like the injury angle was real. The second time they looked as if they were just blatantly doing it before that final strike exchange.


So wait, you actually think they WANTED to make it obvious that they were talking to each other? That is the most ridiculous, desperate attempt to explain away a clear flaw that I can possibly imagine. 



> Oh and Strong/Edwards story was pretty much Strong treating Eddie as a non threat. He even blatantly calls Eddie "The Other Wolf" during his entrance. To sum it all up because I'm tired of typing, what Roderick got for taking Eddie so lightly was a bloody forehead, a bloody chest, and loss in chop wars which is Roddy's freaking schtick. The first part of the match was put together terribly though.


I just want to point out, you’re the only person I have seen explain the story this way, and I think it is because that story did not exist whatsoever within the context of the match. Yeah, he called him the other wolf, but was there even one example of ACTUAL disrespect or underestimation, here? Go watch Roddy’s first ever title match against Danielson: Now THAT is an example of a champion thinking a challenger in a non-threat and paying for it….and the story actually makes sense.


----------



## Alan4L

time to shift the Davey/Eddie debate to the new BEST MATCH EVER

BOSJ Final
*
SPOILERS BELOW!!!*







I'm watching Milano Collection AT on my TV right now, 30 minutes after the match ended, crying as they do the show recap. He's crying because he just saw one of the most special wrestling matches ever. My new favourite wrestling match ever. I cannot believe what I just saw but it's taken my love for wrestling to a whole new level. Kota Ibushi and Ryusuke Taguchi had the most superhuman match I've ever seen. I'm in awe.

Molten Korakuen, gripping drama, huge nearfalls, big spots, emotion, struggle, selling of the highest order, spots playing of the 2010 final and Ibushi's injury and the perfect finish with the right winner. This was Kota Ibushi's moment as the best wrestler on planet earth. His peers like Liger, Kanemoto, Devitt and others were all there to give him the spotlight at the end and give their respect. It was monumental. And as I finish this post, Milano has stopped crying and now just appears to be thinking about what he'll have for dinner on the way home.


----------



## TheAce

Lol, man guys....watch a match, enjoy it (or not) and move on....


----------



## Alan4L

Once again - my favourite wrestling match ever.

Ahead of Furnas/Kroffat vs. Kobashi/Kikuchi, Danielson/Nigel at Unified, Ibushi/Marufuji vs. KENTA/Ishimori, Hulk vs. Shingo and Williams vs. Kobashi.


----------



## WOOLCOCK

Alan4L said:


> time to shift the Davey/Eddie debate to the new BEST MATCH EVER
> 
> BOSJ Final
> *
> SPOILERS BELOW!!!*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm watching Milano Collection AT on my TV right now, 30 minutes after the match ended, crying as they do the show recap. He's crying because he just saw one of the most special wrestling matches ever. My new favourite wrestling match ever. I cannot believe what I just saw but it's taken my love for wrestling to a whole new level. Kota Ibushi and Ryusuke Taguchi had the most superhuman match I've ever seen. I'm in awe.
> 
> Molten Korakuen, gripping drama, huge nearfalls, big spots, emotion, struggle, selling of the highest order, spots playing of the 2010 final and Ibushi's injury and the perfect finish with the right winner. This was Kota Ibushi's moment as the best wrestler on planet earth. His peers like Liger, Kanemoto, Devitt and others were all there to give him the spotlight at the end and give their respect. It was monumental. And as I finish this post, Milano has stopped crying and now just appears to be thinking about what he'll have for dinner on the way home.


Its refreshing to see someone really really enjoy wrestling as much as you do, but Ibushi best wrestler in the world??????????? He's not as bad as Marufuji with the lack of selling and hokey offence but when I've watched him he's basically just gone for a sprint and ignored long term committed selling. I give him props for the Yoshihiko match.

I suppose though its because I've really fallen out of love with your typical juniors sprint style match, over the past 18 months I've really become a stronger fan of matwork and stiff wrestling compared to the juniors style. If you adore this style then I can understand why you may rank Ibushi that high even personally I can't really get behind it at all. I'll give it a watch but I have a hard time imagining it will top my favourite ever matches


----------



## Alan4L

Wrestling is like a pack of Fruit Pastilles. Lots of different flavours. I totally understand that he wouldn't be everyone's favourite flavour, but he's mine. He delivers everything I want out of a pro wrestling when it comes to in-ring.

Kota Ibushi - you ARE the red fruit pastille.


----------



## Nervosa

Alan4L said:


> time to shift the Davey/Eddie debate to the new BEST MATCH EVER
> 
> BOSJ Final
> *
> SPOILERS BELOW!!!*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm watching Milano Collection AT on my TV right now, 30 minutes after the match ended, crying as they do the show recap. He's crying because he just saw one of the most special wrestling matches ever. My new favourite wrestling match ever. I cannot believe what I just saw but it's taken my love for wrestling to a whole new level. Kota Ibushi and Ryusuke Taguchi had the most superhuman match I've ever seen. I'm in awe.
> 
> Molten Korakuen, gripping drama, huge nearfalls, big spots, emotion, struggle, selling of the highest order, spots playing of the 2010 final and Ibushi's injury and the perfect finish with the right winner. This was Kota Ibushi's moment as the best wrestler on planet earth. His peers like Liger, Kanemoto, Devitt and others were all there to give him the spotlight at the end and give their respect. It was monumental. And as I finish this post, Milano has stopped crying and now just appears to be thinking about what he'll have for dinner on the way home.



But...........but........Taguchi.......Taguchi is shit! He has to be shit! He has always been shit..........I don't believe in a world where Taguchi is not shit!


----------



## rafz

TheAce said:


> Lol, man guys....watch a match, enjoy it (or not) and move on....


thumbs up for this! (Y)


----------



## antoniomare007

Taguchi vs Ibushi was a really fun spotfest that had an emotional touch with Ibushi's story. Not even close to match of the year and I wouldn't even call it match of the tournament.


----------



## seabs

*Wasn't even match of the night for me. 

Ibushi is the best junior in the world right now for me. Entertaining matches every time without fail and an incredible moveset. Ibushi can sell too btw.*


----------



## Nervosa

TheAce said:


> Lol, man guys....watch a match, enjoy it (or not) and move on....


That which survives criticism is all that be called great...and only the great can be truly enjoyable.


----------



## topper1

Seabs said:


> Wasn't even match of the night for me.


What was?


----------



## sXsCanadianFansXs

`The difference is that in MMA, the guy knocked silly doesn’t get up and immediately land offense that is equal to or better than his opponent.`




...You clearly don`t watch MMA. 
Cheick Kongo vs. Pat Barry. That happened less than a week ago.


----------



## topper1

sXsCanadianFansXs said:


> `The difference is that in MMA, the guy knocked silly doesn’t get up and immediately land offense that is equal to or better than his opponent.`
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...You clearly don`t watch MMA.
> Cheick Kongo vs. Pat Barry. That happened less than a week ago.


Great example but very rarely does something like that happen in MMA.


----------



## Nervosa

topper1 said:


> Great example but very rarely does something like that happen in MMA.


Yeah, really goofy exception to the rule.


----------



## Wrestlinfan35

After watching it again.

Davey Richards vs. Eddie Edwards - ****3/4 and MOTY thus far.


----------



## seabs

topper1 said:


> What was?


*Ibushi/Richards

Yeah another Davey match that I enjoyed.







*


----------



## starship.paint

Has arguing over a match ever gotten anyone to change their opinion/star rating? Just state your opinion and move on lol


----------



## seancarleton77

Seabs said:


> *Ibushi/Richards
> 
> Yeah another Davey match that I enjoyed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *


My Jr. Match of the Year, so far. That may include Davey vs. Eddie.


----------



## jawbreaker

starship.paint said:


> Has arguing over a match ever gotten anyone to change their opinion/star rating?


It has, for me at least.


----------



## smitlick

TBH arguing is a good thing. Its nice to see discussion about matches. Without it the thread is pretty dull. I would like this thread though to turn into a list style one with a compilation of all of the matches being made.


----------



## Goku

starship.paint said:


> Has arguing over a match ever gotten anyone to change their opinion/star rating? Just state your opinion and move on lol


That happens all the time. It's called gaining a new perspective.


----------



## wheelofsteel

A Match That I Personally Loved Was From AAA TripleMania XIX In Mexico Between My Puerto Rican Homeboy El Mesias Ricky Banderas vs LA Park (The Original La Parka) . One Of The Best Matches I Have Ever Seen In AAA In A Very Long Time. The Finish Is Debatible But In Part Makes Sense Do To The Rudo Persona Of LA Park. Awesome Match From Start To Finish And Better Than The ONe They Had On Guerra De Titanes 2010.


----------



## Bubz

This thread needs the arguments/discussion to be good. It's my favorite thread but if it was just random star ratings without any comments it would be dull as hell.


----------



## wheelofsteel

Another One, The Final Main Event Of The Final Episode Of ROH On HDNet Between Davey & The Briscoes vs The Kings & Roderick Strong. Amazin' From Bell To Bell And The Show Went Out With A Bang. Can't Wait For The New TV Show To Start, Specially After The Epicism That Was The Best In The World iPPV.


----------



## sXsCanadianFansXs

Nervosa said:


> Yeah, really goofy exception to the rule.


Goofy because it proves your rule wrong?
And I still can`t believe you will write essays on specific matches and storytelling (and selling) yet Suzuki/Nakajima is your MotY. You'll come back at me for liking Edwards/Suzuki and this will never end but it's bizarre that you hold certain aspects of a match so high (control segments, long term selling), and you choose a match that seems to disregard that as the best of the year.

Hmm...

And no disrespect for the effort you put into analyzing these bouts as we clearly have different philosophies when it comes to enjoying wrestling. Just genuinely perplexed...


----------



## aaron_mcn92

sXsCanadianFansXs said:


> Goofy because it proves your rule wrong?
> And I still can`t believe you will write essays on specific matches and storytelling (and selling) yet Suzuki/Nakajima is your MotY. You'll come back at me for liking Edwards/Suzuki and this will never end but it's bizarre that you hold certain aspects of a match so high (control segments, long term selling), and you choose a match that seems to disregard that as the best of the year.
> 
> Hmm...
> 
> And no disrespect for the effort you put into analyzing these bouts as we clearly have different philosophies when it comes to enjoying wrestling. Just genuinely perplexed...


I'll just point out; even though on the surface Suzuki/Nakajima looks like your typical workrate juniors wrestling, there's actually a lot of evidence of very good build and transitioning throughout it. I've only watched it once so far, but what I remember enjoying most was how Suzuki launched into a comeback, seemed to make good progress but was halted by the most brutal kick Nakajima delivered throughout that whole match. Disgustingly beautiful it was! That's just one example of what I thought was a very well paced, well thought out and well executed match. By contrast, something like Suzuki/Edwards had enough good ideas for a very good 15 minute match, but ended up shooting over 30 and dragged like hell.


----------



## seabs

smitlick said:


> I would like this thread though to turn into a list style one with a compilation of all of the matches being made.


*I was gonna try to do something like that in 3 parts throughout the year but it ended up being too much trouble deciding what to put on for the interest it would have got. I make a poll at the end of the year to make like a top xx and make a comp of that.*


----------



## Nervosa

starship.paint said:


> Has arguing over a match ever gotten anyone to change their opinion/star rating? Just state your opinion and move on lol


Maybe you didn't notice, but this is a _Discussion_ Board. It's not a state your opinion and leave board. 

Seriously, I think people who JUST post star ratings and nothing else are far more useless than those who actually explain it. 

And yes, I have had my opinion changed on this board, but that was years ago when KillSteve was around and people knew how to argue properly. 



sXsCanadianFansXs said:


> Goofy because it proves your rule wrong?
> And I still can`t believe you will write essays on specific matches and storytelling (and selling) yet Suzuki/Nakajima is your MotY. You'll come back at me for liking Edwards/Suzuki and this will never end but it's bizarre that you hold certain aspects of a match so high (control segments, long term selling), and you choose a match that seems to disregard that as the best of the year.
> 
> Hmm...
> 
> And no disrespect for the effort you put into analyzing these bouts as we clearly have different philosophies when it comes to enjoying wrestling. Just genuinely perplexed...


Seriously? You're going to compare Suzuki/Edwards and Suzuki/Nakajima as the same thing?

Suzuki/Edwards: No control, no strategy, no storytelling, and on top of all of that...it was sloppy, another trait showing up in a lot of Eddie's matches.

Suzuki/Nakajima: Nakajima focusses on KoSu's neck, (that's a control segment) Suzuki sells it like death, and then puts together a memorable comeback that stems directly from Nakajima's arrogance over his control. On top of all of that, at least 90% clean (maybe even 100 if you think that weird headdrop at the end was the way it was supposed to be. 

The two matches are night and day, mostly because Nakajima has always been an awesome storyteller and Edwards has yet to have a singles match where he goes five minutes without hitting an offensive move. 

In all honesty, I don't see how anyone can say Suzuki/Nakajima doesn't have a story and doesn't have selling, because those two things are exactly what makes it awesome.

Feel free to read my review to see the details:

http://www.wrestlingforum.com/other-wrestling/532607-2011-motyc-thread-43.html


----------



## TheAce

I just wanna state I really like the discussion alot just that it seems to get a tad overkill at times, like with the debates over Taker vs HHH or anything Davey Richards does, lol.


----------



## Nervosa

TheAce said:


> I just wanna state I really like the discussion alot just that it seems to get a tad overkill at times, like with the debates over Taker vs HHH or anything Davey Richards does, lol.


I think when something that is getting 5 stars has glaring flaws, an explanation is greatly needed. 

Mostly, I just want to see what some people are willing to overlook in order to call something great.


----------



## peachchaos

The UnMOTYs (in other words...yes, I've seen them, and no, I don't think they're that good.)

Triple H vs. Undertaker ***1/2
Edwards vs. Suzuki ***1/4
Daniels vs. Richards ***1/2
Edwards vs. Daniels ***3/4
Edwards vs. Strong ***1/2
LDRS of the New School vs. O'reilly/Cole****
Edwards vs. Richards ****

All of these matches have incredible intensity and the kind of unique appeal that I know I could show to non-fans and they would be instantly entertained. Every wrestling match ever is flawed in some way. I respect your opinions to a certain degree because you go into such great detail, but your overall opinions are far removed from what everyone else considers important to a "great" match. It's great that you can be so critical and find those flaws to point out, but at the end of the day your ratings system ultimately misses the point about what makes a match worthwhile in the first place.


----------



## Nervosa

peachchaos said:


> The UnMOTYs (in other words...yes, I've seen them, and no, I don't think they're that good.)
> 
> Triple H vs. Undertaker ***1/2
> Edwards vs. Suzuki ***1/4
> Daniels vs. Richards ***1/2
> Edwards vs. Daniels ***3/4
> Edwards vs. Strong ***1/2
> LDRS of the New School vs. O'reilly/Cole****
> Edwards vs. Richards ****
> 
> All of these matches have incredible intensity and the kind of unique appeal that I know I could show to non-fans and they would be instantly entertained. Every wrestling match ever is flawed in some way. I respect your opinions to a certain degree because you go into such great detail, but your overall opinions are far removed from what everyone else considers important to a "great" match. It's great that you can be so critical and find those flaws to point out, but at the end of the day your ratings system ultimately misses the point about what makes a match worthwhile in the first place.



Again, I think that is really short-sighted and just shows how far the bar has really lowered in general when it comes to wrestling critique.

People LOVED Taker vs. Foley HIAC. Is it a great match? Even Foley says it isn't. Just because you could show it to anyone doesn't make it a great match. The person you show it to might just like the athleticism or the spots, which is pretty much all Eddie can do right. But that doesn't mean the story works, and that doesn't mean its a good match. My opinions are far from what most people consider great because peoples' standards have fallen to alarmingly low levels. 

And no, it isn't that you can find a fault in any match, because I honestly think there ARE five star matches that DO NOT have faults, and putting stuff like the matches above even CLOSE to those matches is just insulting.

Critique filters out the mediocre so we can recognize the TRULY great when it SURVIVES the criticism.


----------



## sXsCanadianFansXs

So what have you rated ***** in the past decade?

I'm interested in what you consider "perfect" or near-perfect enough to warrant such a rating.

Triple threat from Mania XX? Joe vs. Punk II? Kobashi vs. Misawa?
I wouldn't call any of those perfect but I'm sure some would.


----------



## peep4life

I'm giving Edwards-Richards ****1/2. Don't think its perfect, but then again I'm not a fan of Eddie for a lot of the same reasons everyone else has said. Great match though, really fun


----------



## Nervosa

sXsCanadianFansXs said:


> So what have you rated ***** in the past decade?
> 
> I'm interested in what you consider "perfect" or near-perfect enough to warrant such a rating.
> 
> Triple threat from Mania XX? Joe vs. Punk II? Kobashi vs. Misawa?
> I wouldn't call any of those perfect but I'm sure some would.


I think I named them a while ago, but since I can't check my old posts, I'll have to do them from memory, which is hard. Off the top of my head:

Joe vs. Punk II
Joe vs. Kobashi
KENTA vs. Danielson from Driven 2007
Briscoes vs. MCMG from Good times, Great Memories
Marufuji vs. Kondo (this is the one I get a LOT of flack for, understandably so)

Triple Threat from mania is good, but not perfect, about ****1/2, mostly because I think Hunter is pretty awful. I think Kobashi/Misawa was MUCH weaker than most do, only because I think nostalgia pushed that one higher than it deserved.


----------



## peachchaos

Nervosa said:


> Again, I think that is really short-sighted and just shows how far the bar has really lowered in general when it comes to wrestling critique.
> 
> People LOVED Taker vs. Foley HIAC. Is it a great match? Even Foley says it isn't. Just because you could show it to anyone doesn't make it a great match. The person you show it to might just like the athleticism or the spots, which is pretty much all Eddie can do right. But that doesn't mean the story works, and that doesn't mean its a good match. My opinions are far from what most people consider great because peoples' standards have fallen to alarmingly low levels.
> 
> And no, it isn't that you can find a fault in any match, because I honestly think there ARE five star matches that DO NOT have faults, and putting stuff like the matches above even CLOSE to those matches is just insulting.
> 
> Critique filters out the mediocre so we can recognize the TRULY great when it SURVIVES the criticism.


Taker/Foley is a TERRIBLE example in every possible way. I would never show that to anyone to get them into pro wrestling and it doesn't resemble the matches discussed in this thread in the slightest.

I don't see the general critique of wrestling changing so much as the in-ring expectations of the sport has changed. I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm not looking for those huge babyface comebacks that you're so accustomed to, I'm looking for a hard-hitting realistic style that blends MMA and wrestling. For my money, there is no better example of this than what Davey Richards and Eddie Edwards displayed on Sunday. 

Critiquing this performance sport let's you express your opinion. True greatness overshadows all criticism, however. I believe history will remember this as a Top 5-All-Time ROH match. I'll take 36 minutes of action over an hour long headlock any day of the week.


----------



## antoniomare007

what Kobashi vs Misawa match are you talking about?


----------



## jawbreaker

Nervosa, did I ever ask what you thought of Danielson/Black vs. Richards/Edwards? Because I'm pretty sure that's the best tag match I've ever seen.


----------



## sXsCanadianFansXs

@ Nervosa:
Interesting list. I can see an argument for Joe/Punk II and Briscoes/MCMG but I'm in the group that finds Joe/Kobashi pretty overrated. 

@ jawbreaker: 
I had that tag at ****1/2 - ****3/4 live but I was surprised to enjoy it even more on DVD.
It's definitely my favorite modern tag match.

It loses a bit of excitement knowing the (inconclusive) result, though.
Side note: I was the guy who named the DVD "Tag Title Classic" on the RoH boards. My suggestion was actually World Tag Title Classic (kind of like the 60 minute Joe/Punk draw) but they dropped the world...

*sigh*

Btw, what's everyone think of the DG six man that Meltzer gave 5*?
I have it at ****1/2. I don't think I've gone higher than that for any DG spotfest...


----------



## jawbreaker

Yep, ****1/2, mostly for the crowd reaction.


----------



## WOOLCOCK

whilst the amount of athleticism and lack of botches (been a good year since I saw it but I can't recall a single botch, or at least one that was noticeable) was astounding for the pace and offence they busted out, I'm definitely in the camp that can't rate it anywhere near as much as Meltzer does. Still if you're a fan of that particular style I would argue its probably at least a top 10 in terms of displaying the Dragon Gate style. They also pretty much ensured they could be booked by ROH numerous times over with the crowd reaction


----------



## antoniomare007

*Daisuke Sekimoto & Yugi Okabayashi vs Yoshihito Sasaki & Shinya Ishikawa - BJW 5/5/11*

Another great Strong BJ tag. This time with the added touch of the All Asia Tag Titles on the line. Daisuke & Okabayashi are probably the best tag team of 2011.



sXsCanadianFansXs said:


> @ Nervosa:
> Interesting list. I can see an argument for Joe/Punk II and Briscoes/MCMG but I'm in the group that finds Joe/Kobashi pretty overrated.


Kobashi vs Joe is probably the best subtle squash match I've ever seen. Love it but I also think it's overrated (in the sense of being called "5 starzs~!")


----------



## bigbuxxx

I had never seen ROH till a few months ago and took a look at Joe/Kobashi soon after and thought it was wayyyyyy overrated. The anticipation/atmosphere really just created a great match. If that match had taken place at Centre Stage where the crowd wasn't very vocal it would've been maybe 3 stars.


----------



## antoniomare007

I 've never understood that kind of criticism (for any kind of match).

It's like saying "yeah Austin vs Bret was great but if you take away Austin bleeding it's not THAT good". Well duh, but why would you want to take away from a match the things that made it special???


----------



## bigbuxxx

I enjoyed it and it has great rewatchablilty despite it not being a great match because of the atmosphere. it's just not 5* imo ofc


----------



## Nervosa

peachchaos said:


> Taker/Foley is a TERRIBLE example in every possible way. I would never show that to anyone to get them into pro wrestling and it doesn't resemble the matches discussed in this thread in the slightest.
> 
> I don't see the general critique of wrestling changing so much as the in-ring expectations of the sport has changed. I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm not looking for those huge babyface comebacks that you're so accustomed to, I'm looking for a hard-hitting realistic style that blends MMA and wrestling. For my money, there is no better example of this than what Davey Richards and Eddie Edwards displayed on Sunday.
> 
> Critiquing this performance sport let's you express your opinion. True greatness overshadows all criticism, however. I believe history will remember this as a Top 5-All-Time ROH match. I'll take 36 minutes of action over an hour long headlock any day of the week.


Taker/Foley is a perfect example: people still say it is a great match, and it isn't, it just has great images and spots. Same with Edwards matches. NEITHER matches have any semblance of actual storytelling (besides Foley's refusal to die), you just happen to like meaningless MMA-type spots more than meaningless hardcore spots. Doesn't make either one any less meaningless.

So you're basically saying you don't want storytelling, you just want guys to pretend fight with 'action?' If that is the case, why not just watch MMA? Storytelling is the only possible reason to watch wrestling instead.

The REASON to watch wrestling instead of MMA is the drama in the ring that can be told through story. 

An hour long headlock is not the opposite of Edwards/Davey; what IS the opposite is a match that actually tells a real story instead of two guys just trading spots for no reason.



antoniomare007 said:


> what Kobashi vs Misawa match are you talking about?


Since sxe's question was about the last decade, I assumed he meant 2003. 



jawbreaker said:


> Nervosa, did I ever ask what you thought of Danielson/Black vs. Richards/Edwards? Because I'm pretty sure that's the best tag match I've ever seen.


I ended up at ****3/4. It is truly amazing, but two major problems with it, for me: Tyler's execution of the Cattle Mutilation is HORRIBLE, and there were two big kicks from Danielson and Edwards that were MAJORLY fanned and sold like death. Besides that, awesome.

But best you've ever seen? Haven't you see Taue/Kawada vs. Kobashi/Misawa 1995(my favorite of all time), or, more recently, KENTA/Shiozaki vs. Nakajima/Sasaki? And if you REALLY want some fun, see Shinobu/TEIOH vs. Madoka/Mashimo. (not to mention Briscoes/MCMG)



sXsCanadianFansXs said:


> @ Nervosa:
> Interesting list. I can see an argument for Joe/Punk II and Briscoes/MCMG but I'm in the group that finds Joe/Kobashi pretty overrated.


I don't blame you one bit. I'm not one of the people who thinks its actually a squash, because it made me believe, I just think they did SO many little things, expecially references to mind 90s AJPW matches that I appreciated a whole lot.



> Btw, what's everyone think of the DG six man that Meltzer gave 5*?
> I have it at ****1/2. I don't think I've gone higher than that for any DG spotfest...


See, but it isn't really JUST a spotfest. Dragon Kid gets worked over for a REALLY long time, and even when the spots get going, there is a clear comeback for the Do Fixer team. Also, the moves in the finishing sequence really level well, especially if you know the individual rivalries in Dragon Gate at the time. ****3/4 for me.

Actually, now that you mention it, the Dragon Gate tag two years later, on Supercard III, is even better, for me. Maybe even the full 5 when I'm feeling generous.



antoniomare007 said:


> Kobashi vs Joe is probably the best subtle squash match I've ever seen. Love it but I also think it's overrated (in the sense of being called "5 starzs~!")


I understand this argument, I just think Joe does way too much and Kobashi levels uniquely enough that I just don't see it that way. Totally understandable, though.


----------



## jawbreaker

That statement was missing an "ROH". It's the best ROH tag match I've seen, by which I meant Briscoes-MCMG could be better. There is a gap in my ROH viewing from mid 06 to mid 08.

And it's funny you say Tyler's application of the Cattle Mutilation is a flaw, because that is what made me absolutely sure it was five stars. Think about it this way: Cattle Mutilation is not Tyler's hold. But Tyler is the legal man, so he has to be the one applying it. If it was Danielson applying it, even with his hurt knee, Edwards would have tapped. Edwards was done. But Tyler couldn't get the hold right, so he gives up and hits his ultimate kill move, God's Last Gift (back when God's Last Gift meant something), but just a second too late. If Tyler had applied the Cattle Mutilation perfectly, why would he have gone for the GLG? It also kind of played off the shoulder injury Tyler had from when he went through the table (though he didn't really sell that). I don't know if it was intentional or not, but the way it came across made the match even better for me.


----------



## Nervosa

jawbreaker said:


> And it's funny you say Tyler's application of the Cattle Mutilation is a flaw, because that is what made me absolutely sure it was five stars. Think about it this way: Cattle Mutilation is not Tyler's hold. But Tyler is the legal man, so he has to be the one applying it. If it was Danielson applying it, even with his hurt knee, Edwards would have tapped. Edwards was done. But Tyler couldn't get the hold right, so he gives up and hits his ultimate kill move, God's Last Gift (back when God's Last Gift meant something), but just a second too late. If Tyler had applied the Cattle Mutilation perfectly, why would he have gone for the GLG? It also kind of played off the shoulder injury Tyler had from when he went through the table (though he didn't really sell that). I don't know if it was intentional or not, but the way it came across made the match even better for me.


You know what.....I could actually believe that may have been on purpose. If so, it REALLY helps the match.

Although if it wasn't on purpose you have to admit that it HURTS the match.


----------



## jawbreaker

Yeah. It looks purposeful to me though. In an "I'm trying to make this look accidental" way.


----------



## Caponex75

> Well then which is it? Is Eddie the ‘little brother’ character or the ‘desperate champion?’ character? To me, the prematch promos didn’t make this look like Eddie was out for just pride or ego:


I'm not going to argue the other points because quite honestly, it's going to result in "I'm right! No, I'm right! Well my penis is bigger!" argument which will result in me getting extremely bored and just do something else with my life instead of continuing the cycle. The reason, however, I excluded this part is because this pretty much solves my argument for me. You just don't get the story. The little brother has always been the story of the match or the build up really. Would a champion really say fight me or I quit? No. This was a little brother having a problem with his older brother not fighting him and being immature about it. Richards has always been playing the big brother in this feud. It all even becomes quite obvious in the match actually. Richards claps for Edwards during his introduction where as Eddie didn't even bother. Davey gave the clean break to Edwards where Edwards went straight for his head instead of doing the same(In fact you can hear Kevin Kelly say that Eddie was smiling while Davey had more of a annoyed look on his face). Edwards is willing to put him through tables and introduce major high impact dangerous moves on Richards where Richards isn't willing to attack his vulnerable brother just because he knows he is already hurt. It has ALWAYS been about Eddie being the little brother. 



You're also looking at the cake and not the ingredients if that makes any sense. What I mean about that is that while you see the moves and everything, you don't see how and why they are made. Richards wasn't scared of Eddie's chops, he was just avoiding it. Richards was getting about 90% offense of cross arm breakers until Eddie hit that Backdrop facebuster and started his control even though Richards was trying to comeback(Especially with that awesome Cross armbreaker counter.). Maybe it's because I watched it live that I got it but you really missed most of the obvious storytelling moments. The dragon leg whip spot is pretty obvious....insanely obvious as a matter of fact.


----------



## Nervosa

Caponex75 said:


> I'm not going to argue the other points because quite honestly, it's going to result in "I'm right! No, I'm right! Well my penis is bigger!" argument which will result in me getting extremely bored and just do something else with my life instead of continuing the cycle. The reason, however, I excluded this part is because this pretty much solves my argument for me. You just don't get the story. The little brother has always been the story of the match or the build up really. Would a champion really say fight me or I quit? No. This was a little brother having a problem with his older brother not fighting him and being immature about it. Richards has always been playing the big brother in this feud. It all even becomes quite obvious in the match actually. Richards claps for Edwards during his introduction where as Eddie didn't even bother. Davey gave the clean break to Edwards where Edwards went straight for his head instead of doing the same(In fact you can hear Kevin Kelly say that Eddie was smiling while Davey had more of a annoyed look on his face). Edwards is willing to put him through tables and introduce major high impact dangerous moves on Richards where Richards isn't willing to attack his vulnerable brother just because he knows he is already hurt. It has ALWAYS been about Eddie being the little brother.
> 
> 
> 
> You're also looking at the cake and not the ingredients if that makes any sense. What I mean about that is that while you see the moves and everything, you don't see how and why they are made. Richards wasn't scared of Eddie's chops, he was just avoiding it. Richards was getting about 90% offense of cross arm breakers until Eddie hit that Backdrop facebuster and started his control even though Richards was trying to comeback(Especially with that awesome Cross armbreaker counter.). Maybe it's because I watched it live that I got it but you really missed most of the obvious storytelling moments. The dragon leg whip spot is pretty obvious....insanely obvious as a matter of fact.


Well sure, it's obvious when you write in something that isn't there. I already told you that I could totally believe the Eddie little brother thing if they had told it properly, like they did for Briscoe/Briscoe 5 years ago, but they didn't, so the story fell apart. I already told you that I could totally believe the 'Davey wrestling the perfect match' thing if Eddie could stand to go five minutes without hitting a move, but they didn't, so the story falls apart. 

Oh, and during that section where you claim Davey had '90% offense,' which starts when Davey works the arm for the first time countering the backback, Eddie actually WINS a headbutt exchange (as discussed) and locks in his FINSIHING submission. That's not control for Davey, at all. And even if Davey HAD had control, that ENTIRE section times out to about 3 1/2 minutes total....that's nothing. 

Yes, a champion would say fight me or I quit....if they are CONSTANTLY being told that someone else, who ISNT the champion is better than them. How many times did we hear Eddie say "I'm the champion, if you haven't forgotten," or something along those lines. Plus, one argument that you ignored is that Davey is seriously trying to sever Eddie's arm...yet somehow that's not a 'kill-move' for you. You are, once again writing in something that isn't there. 

I'm not looking at the cake and missing the icing, you're trying to cover rotten feces with icing and telling people that its cake.


----------



## patrickshelley

what are these long texts in this topic?  lets read it 
Edwards vs Davey- 4,0 what a match huh? i wanted to give this 4,5, but something is pushing the rating back and i really cant tell what, but one think that happened in this match that i didnt really buy was that part where Eddie was saying "doit! do it!" and Davey almost didnt, just because Davey isnt that type of character, i think it wouldv been better if Davey was the one saying do it doit! But still, i loved this match, and the only really good match of the show, i also liked Homicide vs Rhyno, but if we are talking about MOTY that match wasnt supposed to be one, but i liked it alot, and Ciampa vs Cabana, but again, this was just a regular match, and the rest of the show pretty much sucked =/


----------



## starship.paint

jawbreaker said:


> It has, for me at least.


Well, good for you then.



smitlick said:


> TBH arguing is a good thing. Its nice to see discussion about matches. Without it the thread is pretty dull.


I'm really just afraid of too much arguments, because in my opinion they tend to break down...



Hohenheim of Light said:


> That happens all the time. It's called gaining a new perspective.


Hmm. It's just from my (possibly flawed) personal experience and my (possibly limited) observations, I noticed that people rarely change their original opinions.


----------



## TheAce

> There is a gap in my ROH viewing from mid 06 to mid 08.


mid 06 to end of 07 is my favorite ROH period....I know that's not a popular opinion(everyone seems to be more fond of 05-mid 06) but man 07 kicks the shit out of any year in ROH since until this year (and Generico/Steen last year)


----------



## Bubz

07 was seriously an awesome year for ROH, my favorite infact. The year of The Briscoes.

Nervosa I see you rated Dragon/KENTA from 07 5 stars, that is one of my favorite ROH matches ever, top 3 infact (along with Joe/Punk 2 and the Tag Title Classic match all of which are 5 stars to me). I can't remember there being much talk about it because it was on the bonus disc and not on the PPV.


----------



## Nervosa

bubz123 said:


> 07 was seriously an awesome year for ROH, my favorite infact. The year of The Briscoes.


Man I miss the good Briscoes. You know, back when they actually did some athletic things AS WELL as brawling. Back when Mark's knee wasn't so messed up, and he actually did springboard moves. 



> Nervosa I see you rated Dragon/KENTA from 07 5 stars, that is one of my favorite ROH matches ever, top 3 infact (along with Joe/Punk 2 and the Tag Title Classic match all of which are 5 stars to me). I can't remember there being much talk about it because it was on the bonus disc and not on the PPV.


I sure did....and I sure was in the minority. I'm glad someone else loved it this much. I think a third reason it was never talked about was because everyone loved the Glory By Honor Match so much. (and for good reason) But that match in 07 was just that much better for me. Glad to find someone else who loves it this much.




TheAce said:


> mid 06 to end of 07 is my favorite ROH period....I know that's not a popular opinion(everyone seems to be more fond of 05-mid 06) but man 07 kicks the shit out of any year in ROH since until this year (and Generico/Steen last year)


Yeah, this....a lot. I love 05 and 06 so much, but 07 just had it all going on. Briscoes/Morishima championship combo was one of the most exciting eras in the company's history. Then you have that awesome BJ/Jacobs cage match, the beginning of Age of the Fall, Those first 3 PPVs which just ruled beyond all measure....just amazing.

I think 05 had the best highlights, 06 had the best angles, but 07 was just as good as it gets for ROH.

No coincidence who was booking during that era.


----------



## jawbreaker

07 also had Stable Wars or whatever it was called.


----------



## KingKicks

2007 ROH did have some great stuff in it but it did have it's fair share of shitness. A lot of that stable wars stuff and Reckless Abandon come to mind.

Race to The Top weekend was a personal highlight for me...mainly night two.

*ROH Best In The World 2011*

*ROH Television Title Match*
Christopher Daniels vs. El Generico ****¾-*****
_First time around I thought this was just decent and had it at around ***1/4 but on second watch it was a seriously fun match. Such ashame Daniels is gone now as I would of loved to of seen more of his heel work, even as a possible next ROH champion. However that will be Kevin Steen now. But yeah the match was great, had a few slow points at the start but the second half of the match brilliant._


----------



## Nervosa

jawbreaker said:


> 07 also had Stable Wars or whatever it was called.


Very true, but thats why I said 06's angles were better. I am just saying as an overall product, 07 was best.

Plus, if Jack Evans had actually committed to ROH the way he agreed at the beginning of stable wars, I guarantee you the angle would have worked. 

Reckless Abandon sucked, I was there....but it was still way better than...........Escalation.....bleh.

By the way, Jaws, what snowflakes did you end up on for Eddie/Davey?


----------



## TheAce

> Plus, if Jack Evans had actually committed to ROH the way he agreed at the beginning of stable wars, I guarantee you the angle would have worked.


Gabe just took to damn long getting it moving. At the begining it was great cause it's the break up of Gen Next, which should be a slam dunk angle no matter what. At least IMO. All the stables should have formed during the run of Anniversary shows that year and the shows immediately after. Having jacks stable get Ruckus in August was just silly. Mainly though, Matt Cross was involved. Even Austin Aries couldn't make that work.


----------



## Nervosa

TheAce said:


> Gabe just took to damn long getting it moving. At the begining it was great cause it's the break up of Gen Next, which should be a slam dunk angle no matter what. At least IMO. All the stables should have formed during the run of Anniversary shows that year and the shows immediately after. Having jacks stable get Ruckus in August was just silly. Mainly though, Matt Cross was involved. Even Austin Aries couldn't make that work.


Agree on Matt Cross times a million. What a total and complete piece of shit.

But in all honesty, do you know WHY they couldn't put the stables together immediately? Because Jack had agreed to several shows that he later canceled. That's why Ruckus didn't even join until August, and that's what ultimately killed it.


----------



## rafz

both Dave Meltzer and Bryan Alvarez from Wrestling Observer rated Edwards/Richards match as ****3/4.

just saying..


----------



## flag sabbath

rafz said:


> both Dave Meltzer and Bryan Alvarez from Wrestling Observer rated Edwards/Richards match as ****3/4.
> 
> just saying..


Wow, really? I'm lost on the level of fuss surrounding this match. They failed to engage the crowd at several crucial moments & the most memorable sequence (apron 2K1, table stomp, back stomp) was rendered meaningless when Davey took control seconds later. He should have been hanging on for dear life after such a brutal hammering.

For me, they fell quite a few notches short of the epic most are claiming...


----------



## jawbreaker

Nervosa said:


> By the way, Jaws, what snowflakes did you end up on for Eddie/Davey?


***1/2 after a first watch. I'll give it a second watch in a couple weeks and revise my rating then.

Also watched Suzuki/Nakajima and holy fuck that was everything Richards/Edwards wasn't. ****1/2, bordering on ****3/4, my MOTY as well.


----------



## lewieG

Out of interest, what did Meltzer and co. give to Richards vs Black from DBD and Steen vs Generico at Final Battle?


----------



## Dimas75

rafz said:


> both Dave Meltzer and Bryan Alvarez from Wrestling Observer rated Edwards/Richards match as ****3/4.
> 
> just saying..


In their podcast Meltzer & Alvarez talked about the promo after the match. Meltzer said he initially gave the match ****3/4, but watching the promo made it even better, so wouldnt that mean he gave it 5 stars?


----------



## D'Angelo

flag sabbath said:


> Wow, really? I'm lost on the level of fuss surrounding this match. They failed to engage the crowd at several crucial moments & the most memorable sequence (apron 2K1, table stomp, back stomp) was rendered meaningless when Davey took control seconds later. He should have been hanging on for dear life after such a brutal hammering.
> 
> For me, they fell quite a few notches short of the epic most are claiming...


This. Edwards/Davey was ****1/4 at best. Giving it ***** is laughable. ROH marks :side:


----------



## Bubz

Stringer said:


> This. Edwards/Davey was ****1/4 at best. Giving it ***** is laughable.* ROH marks *:side:


Hey man...that hurts.

I completely forgot the stable wars ever happened. It was definitely Jacks fault, the fact he didn't get his stable together for AGES after he said he would was annoying as hell. The NRC was the only decent stable in it, The Resillience was alright because Aries was in it but Stevens wasn't that good at the time and Matt Cross is Matt Cross. Don't even get me started on The Vulture Squad, god they were shit. I like Jack though.

Morishima in ROH was so awesome at the time. The only champion to ever have squash matches for the world title? IIRC Morishima/Rave lasted 2 minutes.


----------



## Corey

lewieG said:


> Out of interest, what did Meltzer and co. give to Richards vs Black from DBD and Steen vs Generico at Final Battle?


Meltzer and Alvarez both gave Black/Richards ****3/4. Alvarez gave Steen/Generico ****3/4 and Meltzer gave it ****1/4.


----------



## Emperor DC

I loved the NRC.

Strong, Richards and Romero. Yes fuckin' please.


----------



## seancarleton77

What is all this talk of Jack Evans in a MOTYC thread? That's like talking about Freddy Kruger in a children's television show thread, or just bring Jack Evans up in the same conversation as the word wrestling. just seems wrong.


----------



## New Blood

I've had little to no interest in watching newer wrestling this year as I've been busy tracking down old school lucha, territory and 90-93 era WCW/WWF tapes. But I will track down matches that have been recommended for me on the Death Valley Driver and Wrestling KO sites:

Randy Orton vs. Christian - Over the Limit
Chris Masters vs. Drew McIntyre - Superstars 5/12
Jerry Lawler vs. The Miz - Elimination Chamber
L.A. Park vs. El Mesias - TripleMania
Virus vs. Guerrero Maya Jr. - CMLL
Blue Panther vs. ***** Casas - CMLL
***** Navarro/Black Terry vs. El Apache/Angel Mortal - IWRG 1/6 [rewatch]
***** Navarro/Black Terry vs. El Apache/Angel Mortal - IWRG 1/9 [rewatch]
Koji Kanemoto vs. Fujita Jr. Hayato - NJPW
KENTA vs. Yoshihiro Takyama - NOAH
Legends Battle Royale - PWG WrestleReunion


----------



## TheAce

Kobashi Vs Liger **** 3/4 :side:












....In my King Of Colloseum II game....(emulated PS2, totally overhauled, translated and updated...i spent a lot of time this year editing stuff, lol)

Ok, I promise not to post about a game match again...it was just too good though..lol...game rated it %99..lol


----------



## jawbreaker

I once had a Hardy Boyz vs. Edge and Christian match in No Mercy go 35 minutes, including about 20 minutes of nonstop nearfalls. If it really happened it would probably suck, but in the game it was the absolute best thing ever.


----------



## Nervosa

jawbreaker said:


> ***1/2 after a first watch. I'll give it a second watch in a couple weeks and revise my rating then.
> 
> Also watched Suzuki/Nakajima and holy fuck that was everything Richards/Edwards wasn't. ****1/2, bordering on ****3/4, my MOTY as well.


Hooray! Someone else realizes how amazing this was! And It's the person with the most reputable opinion on the boards these days, to boot.

I admire your ability to ignore the action of Davey/Eddie and see it for the storyless, empty waste of time that it was. Not even I have the ability to go lower than 4 stars for it, since I was so entranced by the meaningless spots. Your discernment inspires us all. Wish you would have helped me against all the crazies. 



flag sabbath said:


> Wow, really? I'm lost on the level of fuss surrounding this match. They failed to engage the crowd at several crucial moments & the most memorable sequence (apron 2K1, table stomp, back stomp) was rendered meaningless when Davey took control seconds later. He should have been hanging on for dear life after such a brutal hammering.
> 
> For me, they fell quite a few notches short of the epic most are claiming...


Another one that could have been a lot of help several pages ago. Good to see that you hate the random switching of control throughout the match, as well. 



rafz said:


> both Dave Meltzer and Bryan Alvarez from Wrestling Observer rated Edwards/Richards match as ****3/4.
> 
> just saying..


Had this been 10 years ago, this may have meant something.

Now....yawn. 

Again, its the age we live in. These two are so pissed off at the usual mediocre wrestling the US gets that 36 minutes of no story and lots of spots makes them cream over. 





Stringer said:


> This. Edwards/Davey was ****1/4 at best. Giving it ***** is laughable. ROH marks :side:


a THIRD person preaching the truth now that the actual discussion is over. :faint:



bubz123 said:


> Hey man...that hurts.
> 
> I completely forgot the stable wars ever happened. It was definitely Jacks fault, the fact he didn't get his stable together for AGES after he said he would was annoying as hell. The NRC was the only decent stable in it, The Resillience was alright because Aries was in it but Stevens wasn't that good at the time and Matt Cross is Matt Cross. Don't even get me started on The Vulture Squad, god they were shit. I like Jack though.
> 
> Morishima in ROH was so awesome at the time. The only champion to ever have squash matches for the world title? IIRC Morishima/Rave lasted 2 minutes.


NRC was good enough to hide Rocky's MAJOR faults, my thoughts on the Resilience were the same as yours although the Aries TNA mixup REALLY slowed them down. 

Jigsaw is amazing....why he got thrown in and then abandoned with the vulture squad is beyond me. I mean.........Jigsaw Vulture? It's really too bad about everything with the unmasking and all the bullshit after. One of the few booking decisions of Gabe I'll never forgive.


----------



## Emperor DC

Nervosa, I enjoy reading your points, and think you have a reputable point in what you say, but the way you go about it, whilst trying to discredit everyone's else opinion as almost worthless, is quite annoying.


----------



## sXsCanadianFansXs

What a shock. A guy who`s been watching wrestling his whole life rates the match ****3/4 (higher with the promo). He has a pretty decent reputation, too (having watched more wrestling than anyone on this board...) Wrestling is subjective. I belong in the group that rates this match in the 5* range (with some wrestling experts) and you belong in the small group that doesn't. That is perfectly fine. The tone and attitude you have *because* you rate it lower is slightly ridiculous.


Some people live to be the vocal minority because then they can stand out, get attention and feel elite. You're not smarter than someone because you rate virtually every acclaimed match a star or two less than everyone else. I've no idea if that is part of the reason behind your ratings or if you actually do employ a rulebook that all "great" matches must abide by.

In any event, Nervosa, I enjoy reading your opinion on the match but your smug attitude and elitism lends an immaturity to your writing which makes it hard to take seriously.


----------



## seabs

*I really dont think Nervosa is criticising highly regarded matches just to be in the minority.*


----------



## antoniomare007

*Hiroshi Tanahashi vs Hirooki Gotoh - DOMINION 2011*

A lot of good and bad things in this match. There were a couple of times were I couldn't tell if they botched a move or it was part of the story. Still, if they botched those moves (highly possible) they did an incredible job working around them and making them part of the story (Gotoh taking advantage of Tana's head bumps). I didn't like Tanahashi's final comeback, specially because he was supposed to have a head injury or something and all of a sudden he goes into SuperCena mode and the match ends. Now, most this flaws can be a little overlooked with the great atmosphere and amazing nearfalls they had. So it's still an enjoyable and "downloadable" fight.

All in all, damn good match with a great crowd, nearfalls and action. But not the classic or MOTY I was expecting.


----------



## Bubz

Seabs said:


> *I really dont think Nervosa is criticising highly regarded matches just to be in the minority.*


This. It's obvious he has certain rules etc when it comes to rating matches, It also leads to some (even though he doesn't think so himself) entertaining arguments/discussions, isn't that what this board is for?


----------



## D'Angelo

bubz123 said:


> This. It's obvious he has certain rules etc when it comes to rating matches, It also leads to some (even though he doesn't think so himself) entertaining arguments/discussions, isn't that what this board is for?


This.

I usually have outspoken opinions on things but it is beyond belief to me that people are rating this match at *****. Actually cannot believe it. Just because Meltzer rated it ****3/4 it doesn't mean it was close to *****. His opinions were easily discredited 8 years ago. 

This match had no story, meaningless psychology and no selling whatsoever. People need to go watch some AJPW in the 90s if they want to see "epic battles".


----------



## antoniomare007

*Prince Devitt vs Kota Ibushi - DOMINION 2011*

Another amazing sprint from the Jr Division. 14 minutes of great non-stop action.


----------



## Corey

Why do people in here keep saying "go watch All Japan in the 90s" or "watch Misawa and Kobashi from the 90s" or shit like that? What the hell does that have to do with anything?


----------



## Bubz

So guys, what matches are worth watching from this years BOSJ? So far i've got Davey/Ibushi and the final, anything else?


----------



## WOOLCOCK

Meltzer giving a match a rating is simply reflecting how much Meltzer enjoyed that match. Don't really see how his opinions/journalistic credentials etc impact on his judgement, at the end of the day he's a wrestling fan like us all and will have certain tastes that push a match over the top in his eyes (his love of MITB being a prime example). He's got a wide knowledge of wrestling and would certainly be more useful than I for a wrestling quiz, still doesn't mean that him giving a match * or ***** automatically has more credibility than anyone in here rating the same match.

I saw the same thing brought up in the rock v punk promo thread, with some poster pointing how Austin and others had praised Rock as the best thus making him better than Punk and the best of all time. Whilst Austin certainly knows what it takes to make it in the wrestling business, he still like all of us will have subjective tastes in what he considers to be a great/bad promo. I happen to think Rock is perhaps the most natural talker of anyone in the history of the business, but the content of his promos makes him FAR FAR FAR from the best in my humble opinion.

Its all discussion and taste at the end of the day. If you think Richards v Edwards is a classic and in some cases ***** (I don't but that's just my point of view) then you don't need to bring up Meltzer's rating as basis of how epic the match is, just be grateful you witnessed a match that clearly appealed to your tastes whilst not appealing to others.


----------



## D'Angelo

Jack Evans 187 said:


> Why do people in here keep saying "go watch All Japan in the 90s" or "watch Misawa and Kobashi from the 90s" or shit like that? What the hell does that have to do with anything?


Because people are saying Eddie/Richards is epic. It pales in comparison to AJPW 90s epic battles.


----------



## antoniomare007

bubz123 said:


> So guys, what matches are worth watching from this years BOSJ? So far i've got Davey/Ibushi and the final, anything else?


worth a look?

Hayato vs Kanemoto
KUSHIDA vs Ibushi
Davey vs Devitt
TJP vs Devitt
Sasuke vs Liger
Ibushi vs Omega


----------



## antoniomare007

Stringer said:


> Because people are saying Eddie/Richards is epic. It pales in comparison to AJPW 90s epic battles.


That's kinda weak. Slaughter vs Iron Sheik is epic and it's completely different from 90's All Japan.


----------



## Bubz

*BOSJ semi final - Davey Richards vs Kota Ibushi ***3/4*

These guys wrestled at such a fast pace, there was no mat work really just big moves right from the start. Just a really fun sprint. I love Davey as the dickish heel, some of his antics are great, I remember the days in ROH when he used to flick ball sweat at the crowd...good times lol.

*TJP vs Prince Devitt ***1/2*


----------



## KingKicks

DeeCee said:


> Nervosa, I enjoy reading your points, and think you have a reputable point in what you say, but the way you go about it, whilst trying to discredit everyone's else opinion as almost worthless, is quite annoying.


Going to have to agree with this. I enjoy reading what you say Nervosa, I like to see different opinions on matches but the way you say things like this for example:



Nervosa said:


> Hooray! Someone else realizes how amazing this was! And It's the person with the most reputable opinion on the boards these days, to boot.


can become pretty annoying.

If someone thinks Richards/Edwards is ***1/2, ****, ***** or hell ******, it really doesn't matter. There's no real need to shit on other people's opinions.

Anyway back to wrestling. I'm going to need to check out all the BOSJ matches antoniomare listed. All of them sound great.


----------



## D'Angelo

antoniomare007 said:


> That's kinda weak. Slaughter vs Iron Sheik is epic and it's completely different from 90's All Japan.


Whatever you think is epic is epic, I don't think Eddie/Davey was at all. Just my opinion.


----------



## antoniomare007

I don't think it was even close to epic. I've been saying it for the last 4 pages, lol. 

But I agree that the "go watch 90's All Japan" argument gets thrown way too much. No everything has to be similar to Misawa vs Kawada to be an epic battle.


----------



## Bubz

Yeah, not a fan of the All Japan argument, it's silly. Yeah, the matches were great, but I hate the idea that if someone thinks a match like Eddie/Davey was great, it means they know nothing about wrestling and haven't watched 90's All Japan.


----------



## D'Angelo

antoniomare007 said:


> I don't think it was even close to epic. I've been saying it for the last 4 pages, lol.
> 
> But I agree that the "go watch 90's All Japan" argument gets thrown way too much. No everything has to be similar to Misawa vs Kawada to be an epic battle.


I'm not saying that at all, it's just the first example that came to my head of a big epic battle. There are plenty in 2000 WWE that I would consider epic as well, as a lot of Memphis battles are, too.



bubz123 said:


> Yeah, not a fan of the All Japan argument, it's silly. Yeah, the matches were great, but I hate the idea that if someone thinks a match like Eddie/Davey was great, it means they know nothing about wrestling and haven't watched 90's All Japan.


I haven't said anything like that.


----------



## Nervosa

Stringer said:


> Whatever you think is epic is epic, I don't think Eddie/Davey was at all. Just my opinion.


(Y)



Segunda Caida said:


> Its all discussion and taste at the end of the day. If you think Richards v Edwards is a classic and in some cases ***** (I don't but that's just my point of view) then you don't need to bring up Meltzer's rating as basis of how epic the match is, just be grateful you witnessed a match that clearly appealed to your tastes whilst not appealing to others.


Paying attention, Rafz?



antoniomare007 said:


> I don't think it was even close to epic. I've been saying it for the last 4 pages, lol.
> 
> But I agree that the "go watch 90's All Japan" argument gets thrown way too much. No everything has to be similar to Misawa vs Kawada to be an epic battle.


And let me make it clear how much I appreciate the last 4 pages. 

Since my favorite matches ever are from that era, I do tend to compare everything to it. It’s the measuring stick, for me. But I rate too many brawls EXTREMELY highly to just say 90’s AJPW it is the ONLY way.



DeeCee said:


> Nervosa, I enjoy reading your points, and think you have a reputable point in what you say, but the way you go about it, whilst trying to discredit everyone's else opinion as almost worthless, is quite annoying.


I’m sorry it comes off that way. It isn’t as much that I am trying to discredit other peoples’ opinion as I am trying to discredit their reasoning. Everyone has a right to an opinion, I just think critique means knowing how to accuse and defend a match’s weaknesses properly. I don’t think Capone’s OPINION is worthless; I DO think him saying a story for a match was crystal clear when there was no such story is worthless. 




Benjo™ said:


> Going to have to agree with this. I enjoy reading what you say Nervosa, I like to see different opinions on matches but the way you say things like this for example:
> 
> 
> _Originally Posted by Nervosa
> Hooray! Someone else realizes how amazing this was! And It's the person with the most reputable opinion on the boards these days, to boot._
> 
> 
> can become pretty annoying.
> 
> If someone thinks Richards/Edwards is ***1/2, ****, ***** or hell ******, it really doesn't matter. There's no real need to shit on other people's opinions.


First off, I think you are taking my quote the wrong way. I am seriously one of the only people who have raved about Suzuki/Nakajima. Then someone I respect finally sees it and also raves about it. I was really not trying to shit on peoples' opinions, just trying to talk about how much I value Jaws', and how happy I was that he liked the match, too. If that statement sounded like I was bringing everyone else down rather than lifting Jaws up, I apologize.



sXsCanadianFansXs said:


> What a shock. A guy who`s been watching wrestling his whole life rates the match ****3/4 (higher with the promo). He has a pretty decent reputation, too (having watched more wrestling than anyone on this board...) Wrestling is subjective. I belong in the group that rates this match in the 5* range (with some wrestling experts) and you belong in the small group that doesn't. That is perfectly fine. The tone and attitude you have *because* you rate it lower is slightly ridiculous.


Seriously? You're going to talk about 'tone' on a message board? What, should I type in a different font?

If you're addressing how I am more argumentative....I am. I am argumentative because I am consistent in giving concrete reasons for my opinions and criticisms, and I think any responses to my opinions and criticisms lose a lot of credibility when they don't have similar kinds of reason. 

That's called discussion. If you look into it, I think you’ll find that's what the board is for. 



sXsCanadianFansXs said:


> Some people live to be the vocal minority because then they can stand out, get attention and feel elite. You're not smarter than someone because you rate virtually every acclaimed match a star or two less than everyone else. I've no idea if that is part of the reason behind your ratings or if you actually do employ a rulebook that all "great" matches must abide by.
> 
> In any event, Nervosa, I enjoy reading your opinion on the match but your smug attitude and elitism lends an immaturity to your writing which makes it hard to take seriously.


I rate every virtually acclaimed match low? Did you see my Steen/Generico rating? If not, see below. How about the much raved about Generico/Claudio? See Below: it's HIGHER than most. I was not the first to post about Suzuki/Nakajima, and I also rated that match....o, what a surprise...HIGHER than most. That's hardly 'rating every acclaimed match lower.' Did ANYONE else give Christian/Orton ****1/2?

I think I have been clear on the things that I think great matches need to do, and I think when I critique a match, I am very clear to point out said rules. (ie, control, comeback, workover)

Elite? Maybe. I have high standards, I think truly great matches are insulted when the mediocre matches are placed besides them. If elite means having some kind of standards in order to PROTECT those TRULY great matches, then yes, I'm elite, and I have every right to be.

If you can't take that seriously, then there really is nothing I can do for you. The number of people who have come to my defense here, especially those who I often to disagree with, speak for themselves.



Seabs said:


> *I really don’t think Nervosa is criticizing highly regarded matches just to be in the minority.*


This is AWESOME to hear from you. We don't always see eye to eye, but I have always respected your opinion, and I am glad you recognize what I am trying to do...or at least NOT trying to do. 



bubz123 said:


> This. It's obvious he has certain rules etc when it comes to rating matches, It also leads to some (even though he doesn't think so himself) entertaining arguments/discussions, isn't that what this board is for?


I actually do, myself, think the discussions are entertaining. I love it. I may think Capone's arguments are horrible, but I give him a lot of credit for at least discussing it. I often think he writes stories for matches where there is no story, and then acts like I'm dense for missing it, which is really the only un-entertaining part of it. I really like talking out specific, real, reasons a match is good or bad. The discussion about Wolves vs. Black Dragons and the KENTA/Dragon match fro ma few pages ago, and the general ROH nostalgia was fun. 

This, like Seabs’ post means a lot to me, and actually probably more, because you and I DO NOT see eye to eye on a lot of matches. Just seeing you replace a masterpiece like Generico/Claudio on your MOTY signature with that piece of tripe makes me want to cry. But no matter how much we disagree, I have so much respect for the WAY you argue. I’ll never forget that when I was discussing the problems with the lack of control sessions for Trips/Taker, you actually acknowledged the point I was making, and interacted extremely well in that discussion. Thanks for the encouragement. 



Stringer said:


> This.
> 
> I usually have outspoken opinions on things but it is beyond belief to me that people are rating this match at *****. Actually cannot believe it. Just because Meltzer rated it ****3/4 it doesn't mean it was close to *****. His opinions were easily discredited 8 years ago.
> 
> This match had no story, meaningless psychology and no selling whatsoever. People need to go watch some AJPW in the 90s if they want to see "epic battles".


*standing round of applause*

Simply amazing post.


----------



## patrickshelley

Did anyone mention Drake Younger vs Scotty Vortekz at Proving Grounds already?
i give that 4/5 perhaps 4,3/5, but im gonna stick with 4/5 
To me you can start watching this match from when Vortekz hits a flying knees to younger and he almost dies, the match got interisting from there.


----------



## FITZ

90s Japan puts me to sleep in all honesty. There are a few matches that I've made it through but for the most part I have a really hard time sitting through the stuff.


----------



## rafz

the best match ever IMO was Kobashi/Misawa from 97, in Meltzer's opinion that wasn't even a 5* star match, it's just a matter of point of view, there is no right or wrong.

several people saw a great story in Eddie/Richards match, I just post Meltzer and Bryan Alvarez to add to that list of people, it doesn't mean that is fact for god sake.


----------



## antoniomare007

TaylorFitz said:


> 90s Japan puts me to sleep in all honesty. There are a few matches that I've made it through but for the most part I have a really hard time sitting through the stuff.




this is like the time when JackEvans187 said the he didn't get what was the big deal about Shinya Hashimoto


----------



## Corey

antoniomare007 said:


> this is like the time when JackEvans187 said the he didn't get what was the big deal about Shinya Hashimoto


I really said that? :no: I must've been young and stupid. I've went back and read things I posted the first year or two after I joined and they were ridiculous. But I was only 14/15 at the time.


----------



## FITZ

I would have to google "Shinya Hashimoto" to know who the fuck he is.


----------



## antoniomare007

TaylorFitz said:


> I would have to google "Shinya Hashimoto" to know who the fuck he is.


maan, you just want to break my heart


----------



## sXsCanadianFansXs

No MotYC's but just have to say that WWE is having a hell of a week.

Raw had the fantastic Punk promo and the really fun Tornado tag.
SD! had Dibiase/Bryan, Sin Cara/Christian among other decent bouts.

If I were to recommend one match to watch from the WWE this week, it'd have to be the six man tag from WWE Superstars. Don't expect anything phenomenal but it certainly shows that the youth of the WWE is ready to step up and bring an athletic style if called upon.


----------



## Caponex75

Nervosa said:


> Well sure, it's obvious when you write in something that isn't there. I already told you that I could totally believe the Eddie little brother thing if they had told it properly, like they did for Briscoe/Briscoe 5 years ago, but they didn't, so the story fell apart. I already told you that I could totally believe the 'Davey wrestling the perfect match' thing if Eddie could stand to go five minutes without hitting a move, but they didn't, so the story falls apart.
> 
> Oh, and during that section where you claim Davey had '90% offense,' which starts when Davey works the arm for the first time countering the backback, Eddie actually WINS a headbutt exchange (as discussed) and locks in his FINSIHING submission. That's not control for Davey, at all. And even if Davey HAD had control, that ENTIRE section times out to about 3 1/2 minutes total....that's nothing.
> 
> Yes, a champion would say fight me or I quit....if they are CONSTANTLY being told that someone else, who ISNT the champion is better than them. How many times did we hear Eddie say "I'm the champion, if you haven't forgotten," or something along those lines. Plus, one argument that you ignored is that Davey is seriously trying to sever Eddie's arm...yet somehow that's not a 'kill-move' for you. You are, once again writing in something that isn't there.
> 
> I'm not looking at the cake and missing the icing, you're trying to cover rotten feces with icing and telling people that its cake.



I would totally agree if Richards hadn't brought it up JUST ONCE. They've been playing the little brother storyline from the beginning. The whole Honor Stage promo was Richards saying he didn't want to ruin his Bro's dreams, Edwards comes out offended, pretty much reminds Richards that he beat his ass last year, and what does Richards do? He nods his head and squashes it. Never brings it up again. Then at Revolution USA, Richards fails at helping Edwards and then Edwards reacts how? Telling Richards that he isn't his little brother and that he doesn't need his help? After a freaking tag match?! That's like your brother throwing he is unrelated frustrations at you after you accidentally team kill him in Halo. Then when Richards saves him from getting his can whipped, Eddie doesn't even thank him. He instead bickers at him and gives him a ultimatum about fighting for a championship that Richards doesn't want to fight for or Richards ending his best friend's career on the spot. Really not the little Bro? At the press conference, Richards extended his hand and Eddie, instead of shaking it, extended the same hand. That sign of immaturity almost caused Richards to walk the f' out had Cornette not asked for a championship picture. When Edwards extended the hand, Richards didn't mock him like Edwards did him but he instead shook his hand like a big brother would.


Everything I brought up is clearly there. You keep trying to put this "Desperate Champion" story when that's maybe not even 40% of the story really. Richards keeping the hug on Edwards longer than Edwards cared for, Edwards not giving the clean break, and so much. Even at the end, Richards tells him "You will always be my brother" before shaving 20 years of Eddie's life with a punt that makes the voices in Orton heads shriek. What more obvious story telling element do you need? 

And yes Richards wrestled the prefect match. Every counter he could do, he did. In fact, Eddie never out countered him until the end(Which would been a great fake ending had Eddie not sat down to early). Richards won all the serious stand up exchanges and wrestled a match against a opponent that only some could dream. And there is a difference between attacking someone's arm and attacking someone's injured limb. That's like wrestling a MMA type of match against your friend, trying to submit him, and he ends up injuring himself when he does a roll but still wants to wrestle because let's face it, that's what we do. Do you *A.* Keep going after the arm and at most having his arm sore for a day or so or *B.* Going after his injured leg and possibly fucking it up for the rest of his life? Let us not also forget that the Wolves main success as a team have come from ripping people's legs apart. There is a HUGE difference.

And Edwards didn't make Davey stop using headbutts! That doesn't apply when Richards doesn't even sell like he lost and especially when he headbutts him ONE SECOND LATER. Edwards couldn't catch a break that whole time when Richards was attacking his arm(s). Anyone watching that could tell you that Edwards was in the most danger then Richards was during that segment. Let us not forget that the Ankle Lock, Cross Armbreaker, Falcon Breaker(Falcon Arrow into a cross armbreaker) Kimura, shooting star, cloverleaf, and the sharpshooter are all of Richards finishers and Edwards was stuck in those three during those few minutes. You are clearly ignoring the amount of control Richards had over Edwards.


----------



## Nervosa

rafz said:


> the best match ever IMO was Kobashi/Misawa from 97, in Meltzer's opinion that wasn't even a 5* star match, it's just a matter of point of view, there is no right or wrong.
> 
> several people saw a great story in Eddie/Richards match, I just post Meltzer and Bryan Alvarez to add to that list of people, it doesn't mean that is fact for god sake.


Even this is not really true. Just because people rate something high doesn't mean they thought it had a great story. So far, of all the people to rate it higher than 4 stars, ONLY Capone has even attempted to try explain anything those two did in the ring to convey any kind of story. 

I think Peachchaos' explanation was the best one, and one that most people rating the match high are subscribing too: that the match HAD no storytelling, but the action was intense enough that they rated the match highly. I don't think this kind of thought is acceptable either, but at least peachchaos is admitting the match didn't have a story.



Caponex75 said:


> I would totally agree if Richards hadn't brought it up JUST ONCE. They've been playing the little brother storyline from the beginning. The whole Honor Stage promo was Richards saying he didn't want to ruin his Bro's dreams, Edwards comes out offended, pretty much reminds Richards that he beat his ass last year, and what does Richards do? He nods his head and squashes it. Never brings it up again. Then at Revolution USA, Richards fails at helping Edwards and then Edwards reacts how? Telling Richards that he isn't his little brother and that he doesn't need his help? After a freaking tag match?! That's like your brother throwing he is unrelated frustrations at you after you accidentally team kill him in Halo. Then when Richards saves him from getting his can whipped, Eddie doesn't even thank him. He instead bickers at him and gives him a ultimatum about fighting for a championship that Richards doesn't want to fight for or Richards ending his best friend's career on the spot. Really not the little Bro? At the press conference, Richards extended his hand and Eddie, instead of shaking it, extended the same hand. That sign of immaturity almost caused Richards to walk the f' out had Cornette not asked for a championship picture. When Edwards extended the hand, Richards didn't mock him like Edwards did him but he instead shook his hand like a big brother would.
> 
> Everything I brought up is clearly there. You keep trying to put this "Desperate Champion" story when that's maybe not even 40% of the story really. Richards keeping the hug on Edwards longer than Edwards cared for, Edwards not giving the clean break, and so much. Even at the end, Richards tells him "You will always be my brother" before shaving 20 years of Eddie's life with a punt that makes the voices in Orton heads shriek. What more obvious story telling element do you need?
> 
> And yes Richards wrestled the prefect match. Every counter he could do, he did. In fact, Eddie never out countered him until the end(Which would been a great fake ending had Eddie not sat down to early). Richards won all the serious stand up exchanges and wrestled a match against a opponent that only some could dream. And there is a difference between attacking someone's arm and attacking someone's injured limb. That's like wrestling a MMA type of match against your friend, trying to submit him, and he ends up injuring himself when he does a roll but still wants to wrestle because let's face it, that's what we do. Do you *A.* Keep going after the arm and at most having his arm sore for a day or so or *B.* Going after his injured leg and possibly fucking it up for the rest of his life? Let us not also forget that the Wolves main success as a team have come from ripping people's legs apart. There is a HUGE difference.
> 
> And Edwards didn't make Davey stop using headbutts! That doesn't apply when Richards doesn't even sell like he lost and especially when he headbutts him ONE SECOND LATER. Edwards couldn't catch a break that whole time when Richards was attacking his arm(s). Anyone watching that could tell you that Edwards was in the most danger then Richards was during that segment. Let us not forget that the Ankle Lock, Cross Armbreaker, Falcon Breaker(Falcon Arrow into a cross armbreaker) Kimura, shooting star, cloverleaf, and the sharpshooter are all of Richards finishers and Edwards was stuck in those three during those few minutes. You are clearly ignoring the amount of control Richards had over Edwards.


You’re summary of the details leading up to the feud is really good, and I am certainly not saying the little brother element isn’t there. But this was still Eddie saying that not only was he NOT Davey’s little brother, but his identity WAS the ROH world Champion, and that he could not stand being the champion in a company where everyone considered his tag partner the better wrestler. The hand shaking thing is your best point, but I still think that came off way more as Eddie saying “I’m the champ and you do things my way.”

I’m not pressing the ‘desperate champ’ story, I’m saying that they made Eddie the desperate champ just as much as they made him the whiny little brother going into the match. My problem is that they failed to DECIDE which Eddie was. For most of the actual match, he didn’t see any whiny little brother spots, all the way until the dragon screw. In fact, was there anything between the bells that actually told that story besides that’s one spot? Even if this WAS the intended story, I will say for a third time that telling it the way the Briscoes did five years ago would have made way more sense than what these two chose. I don’t think EVEN someone who wants their brother to go all out would do what Eddie did….I think they would say “I’ll show him not to take me seriously,” and slap the fuck out of him, like the Briscoes did. 

How could Davey possibly be wrestling the perfect match when all of his offense is failing? He never hit any move that got him any kind of control. Eddie’s need to hit a move without being worked over only REDUCES the effectiveness of Davey’s top arm moves and makes it impossible for him to be wrestling this ‘prefect match,’ you keep talking about. If he had gotten five straight minutes of arm work, I could agree with you, but he didn’t. Who cares if he ‘out-countered’ Eddie if the offense wasn’t even actually appearing to take a toll on Eddie? 

You think the arm moves weren’t kills moves because they weren’t going after an injury? The first arm Davey works is the RIGHT arm, the one Eddie shattered: that’s going after a previous injury right there! You can’t tell me they weren’t going after previous injuries when Davey at one point works the arm most people associate with Eddie’s biggest injury…no one more than the NYC crowd!

It doesn’t matter that Davey didn’t sell the headbutts...the point is that he STOPPED. Again, puro 101. Him not selling actually proves my point for me. Basic logic says that if Davey thought he was going to win the headbutt war, he would keep going. But he didn’t, so he switched strikes first. He only headbutts him ‘one-second later’ to put an exclamation mark on it after he already needed to switch strikes to win the exchange at all. Davey is stubborn; there’s no reason to think he would switch strikes if he thought he was going to win. 

You say Edwards couldn’t catch a break……sure he did! He was hitting his own moves seconds later! It doesn’t matter that Edwards was ‘in more danger,’it was that the LEVEL of danger he was in was so minimal it didn’t even mean anything when he made his comeback. What is a more impressive comeback? *A.* Someone works your arm for five straight minutes without you HITTING ANYTHING due to the EFFECTIVENESS of the workover, or *B.* Someone works over your arm, but not enough to stop you from getting your moves in every once and a while? Anyone would say A by a mile. Edwards’ comeback didn’t make sense because there wasn’t anything to come back from. Control is not getting ‘most’ of the offense, Capone…its getting all of it! If you’re not getting it all, you’re not in control. You’re in flux. Even if Edwards was in ‘the most danger’ as you say, it doesn’t mean he was in very much. If he was, he wouldn’t be able to hit his own random shit every two minutes.

You’re playing off the cross-armbreakers as finishers, but they really weren’t. Danielson won with armlocks all the time, does that mean when he uses them ten minutes into the match that they are finishers? What about O’connor rolls, or small packages? Danielson and Davey are both guys who have many, many ways to win, and just because they used a tried and true lock early doesn’t mean it was a finisher. The cross-armbeaker is not at all used as a finisher here, it was used as a workover. And apparently, an ineffective one since Eddie just bounces up minutes later and hits his own shit. Plus, even if these WERE finishing maneuvers in order to establish your twisted, incorrect conception of what ‘control’ is, all those moves are reduced to nothing when Eddie can just stand up and hit his own moves immediately.


----------



## seabs

antoniomare007 said:


> *Prince Devitt vs Kota Ibushi - DOMINION 2011*
> 
> Another amazing sprint from the Jr Division. 14 minutes of great non-stop action.


*I thought it was pretty slow at time and largely uneventful by junior matches standards. This is the 3rd match of theirs thst I've found really dissapointing though given they're probably the 2 best juniors around atm. It seemed like they started out working out a 20+ minute match the headlocks and then realised how much they time they actually had and went to the big moves. Not sure what Devitt was trying on the botched top rope frankensteiner but it really backfired and the 2nd one was almost messed up too. Their DDT rematch will probably be a longer match, closer to 20 minutes so I imagine they'll work a different layout which may make it more appealing to me at least. It's like they go for a short sprint but they take too long and end up relying on a big finale. Devitt/TJP and Devitt/Hayato were much better examples of how to work a sub 10 minute juniors match imo.

Still need to see the last 2 matches but the Kojima/Makabe vs MiSu/Archer match was really fucking good I thought. MiSu was awesome and Archer actually looked very good. Kojima really needs to stop taking the crazy chair shots unprotected to his skull though. He does it on a monthly basis and it has zero impact in a match like this. The Kojima/Suzuki exchanges were great. Really liked this.*


bubz123 said:


> So guys, what matches are worth watching from this years BOSJ? So far i've got Davey/Ibushi and the final, anything else?


*Hayato vs Kanemoto
Devitt vs Richards
Ibushi vs KUSHIDA
Devitt vs TJP
Liger vs Sasuke
Devitt vs Hayato
Devitt vs Omega
Omega vs Richards
Richards vs Ibushi

That's everything that I can see people rating ***3/4 or higher. Might have missed a match or two but I added everything MOTYC material in my links thread. I posted a list of matches that are just really good and worth watching in the puro thread last week so you wont have to go too far back to find it.

The All Japan comparison is really weak too for anyone who uses it. Granted it's true and matches aren't to that standard these days but you wont enjoy anything any more if you just compare it to that era and matches like Misawa vs Kawada, Misawa vs Kobashi and Misawa/Kobashi vs Kawada/Taue. If you like a match a lot then you like it a lot. It doesn't have to be in comparison to some of the greatest matches ever.*


----------



## antoniomare007

I really want to read you thoughts on the main event, such a weird match to rate IMO. Full of pros and cons were I think it has enough good things to make it worth a watch and a good match, but also tons of flaws that take it away from being the potential classic it should have been.

The tag match never picked up, Sano is a fucking black hole of heat. Bernard was the only one who seemed was trying to have something more than "decent".


----------



## D'Angelo

TaylorFitz said:


> I would have to google "Shinya Hashimoto" to know who the fuck he is.


C'mon dude.



Nervosa said:


> Even this is not really true. Just because people rate something high doesn't mean they thought it had a great story. So far, of all the people to rate it higher than 4 stars, ONLY Capone has even attempted to try explain anything those two did in the ring to convey any kind of story.
> 
> I think Peachchaos' explanation was the best one, and one that most people rating the match high are subscribing too: that the match HAD no storytelling, but the action was intense enough that they rated the match highly. I don't think this kind of thought is acceptable either, but at least peachchaos is admitting the match didn't have a story.
> 
> 
> 
> You’re summary of the details leading up to the feud is really good, and I am certainly not saying the little brother element isn’t there. But this was still Eddie saying that not only was he NOT Davey’s little brother, but his identity WAS the ROH world Champion, and that he could not stand being the champion in a company where everyone considered his tag partner the better wrestler. The hand shaking thing is your best point, but I still think that came off way more as Eddie saying “I’m the champ and you do things my way.”
> 
> I’m not pressing the ‘desperate champ’ story, I’m saying that they made Eddie the desperate champ just as much as they made him the whiny little brother going into the match. My problem is that they failed to DECIDE which Eddie was. For most of the actual match, he didn’t see any whiny little brother spots, all the way until the dragon screw. In fact, was there anything between the bells that actually told that story besides that’s one spot? Even if this WAS the intended story, I will say for a third time that telling it the way the Briscoes did five years ago would have made way more sense than what these two chose. I don’t think EVEN someone who wants their brother to go all out would do what Eddie did….I think they would say “I’ll show him not to take me seriously,” and slap the fuck out of him, like the Briscoes did.
> 
> How could Davey possibly be wrestling the perfect match when all of his offense is failing? He never hit any move that got him any kind of control. Eddie’s need to hit a move without being worked over only REDUCES the effectiveness of Davey’s top arm moves and makes it impossible for him to be wrestling this ‘prefect match,’ you keep talking about. If he had gotten five straight minutes of arm work, I could agree with you, but he didn’t. Who cares if he ‘out-countered’ Eddie if the offense wasn’t even actually appearing to take a toll on Eddie?
> 
> You think the arm moves weren’t kills moves because they weren’t going after an injury? The first arm Davey works is the RIGHT arm, the one Eddie shattered: that’s going after a previous injury right there! You can’t tell me they weren’t going after previous injuries when Davey at one point works the arm most people associate with Eddie’s biggest injury…no one more than the NYC crowd!
> 
> It doesn’t matter that Davey didn’t sell the headbutts...the point is that he STOPPED. Again, puro 101. Him not selling actually proves my point for me. Basic logic says that if Davey thought he was going to win the headbutt war, he would keep going. But he didn’t, so he switched strikes first. He only headbutts him ‘one-second later’ to put an exclamation mark on it after he already needed to switch strikes to win the exchange at all. Davey is stubborn; there’s no reason to think he would switch strikes if he thought he was going to win.
> 
> You say Edwards couldn’t catch a break……sure he did! He was hitting his own moves seconds later! It doesn’t matter that Edwards was ‘in more danger,’it was that the LEVEL of danger he was in was so minimal it didn’t even mean anything when he made his comeback. What is a more impressive comeback? *A.* Someone works your arm for five straight minutes without you HITTING ANYTHING due to the EFFECTIVENESS of the workover, or *B.* Someone works over your arm, but not enough to stop you from getting your moves in every once and a while? Anyone would say A by a mile. Edwards’ comeback didn’t make sense because there wasn’t anything to come back from. Control is not getting ‘most’ of the offense, Capone…its getting all of it! If you’re not getting it all, you’re not in control. You’re in flux. Even if Edwards was in ‘the most danger’ as you say, it doesn’t mean he was in very much. If he was, he wouldn’t be able to hit his own random shit every two minutes.
> 
> You’re playing off the cross-armbreakers as finishers, but they really weren’t. Danielson won with armlocks all the time, does that mean when he uses them ten minutes into the match that they are finishers? What about O’connor rolls, or small packages? Danielson and Davey are both guys who have many, many ways to win, and just because they used a tried and true lock early doesn’t mean it was a finisher. The cross-armbeaker is not at all used as a finisher here, it was used as a workover. And apparently, an ineffective one since Eddie just bounces up minutes later and hits his own shit. Plus, even if these WERE finishing maneuvers in order to establish your twisted, incorrect conception of what ‘control’ is, all those moves are reduced to nothing when Eddie can just stand up and hit his own moves immediately.


THIS.


Personally, I liked he BOSJ tourny a lot, host of great matches there.


----------



## seabs

*Hiroshi Tanahashi vs Hirooki Goto - IWGP Heavyweight Championship - NJPW 18.06.2011*

_Well I loved this. Great action, big match atmosphere, great near falls and maybe most importantly the crowd was red hot for it. Can't remember if it was in here or on another board but I really do think that I'll love anything with a hot crowd. This one has a really big atmosphere to it too and they work a match that backs up the atmosphere so everything feels really important which is exactly what you want from a big title match on PPV. Goto focusing all of his major offence on Tana's neck was a nice focus point and besides during his comeback Tana sold it really well. I'm a motherfucking sucker for guys selling injuries during their own offence but especially during bridges and Tana not being able to bridge on his neck during pins was great. First time round he has to break the pin and then second time he goes for it he has to break the bridge but he still manages to keep hold of the pin so it played really sweetly off the first failed bridge. Tana going after Goto's knee was a nice sub story to it and they kept going with it. Goto didn't really sell it but I didn't think it was really necessary. Tana wasn't working it over and I saw it more as Goto had some damage to it so it was a nice part to attack when Tana was desperate. antonio mentioned the botches as plural so I'd like to know what he thought they were. Only one that I thought there was, was the botched roll up reversal but it played nicely into Tana's neck injury so I didn't think it mattered too much. Nothing else stood out to me as being botched. Climax is great. I really liked the pacing of the match too. Went 25 minutes and when you go that long it can drag in parts but it never did for me but at the same time I didn't think it was just one pace either as in there was a clear beginning, middle and end. Great near falls plus hot crowd always equals fun finishing stretches and that's what you got. Tana superhuman comeback is almost to be expected but I wouldn't say it bothered me in this case. Didn't feel like a couple of moves and the heel is done and it's not like Goto controlled the whole match without taking any offence from Tanahashi. Post match, firstly with Goto was a really nice extra touch and then the Bad Intentions part was great too. Tanahashi - "I love belts". Japanese wrestlers need to come out with morre frequent bursts of english because they always seem to be awesome, to me at least. There were a couple of flaws but I don't think there were enough or any flaws were overly impactful to hurt the quality of the match. Top 10 of this year for me so far._

*****1/2*


----------



## peachchaos

Cool, but for the record, I don't think the match is without any story whatsoever. In fact, some of the points Coponex75 brings up are just as valid as some of your arguments against the match. My main point is that you are looking at this match from the same old boring perspective that people have been looking at this sport for 20+ years now. And you mock one of the many influential guys that helped form the very study you're trying to uphold by completely dismissing Meltzer's opinion. You even adhere to the same dumb calendar as the Observer, but just because they didn't agree with your bogus criteria for enjoying a fake sport, they become totally irrelevant for 10 years or whatever. Bottom line is you've probably watched this match way more than the people that are defending it and you need to learn when to just back off and talk about something else. We get it. You didn't really like the match all that much. Yay. Woop-woop. I think its the most impressive display of talent at this game that I've seen in a long-ass time and a great story to go with it. You failed to see that. Cool. But YOU failed at not seeing it. I enjoyed the show and got my money's worth. Woop.

So far, if pressed to show a random person one pro wrestling match from any promotion in 2011, I'd HAVE to show them Richards-Edwards.


----------



## D'Angelo

peachchaos said:


> Cool, but for the record, I don't think the match is without any story whatsoever. In fact, some of the points Coponex75 brings up are just as valid as some of your arguments against the match. My main point is that you are looking at this match from the same old boring perspective that people have been looking at this sport for 20+ years now. And you mock one of the many influential guys that helped form the very study you're trying to uphold by completely dismissing Meltzer's opinion. You even adhere to the same dumb calendar as the Observer, but just because they didn't agree with your bogus criteria for enjoying a fake sport, they become totally irrelevant for 10 years or whatever. Bottom line is you've probably watched this match way more than the people that are defending it and you need to learn when to just back off and talk about something else. We get it. You didn't really like the match all that much. Yay. Woop-woop. I think its the most impressive display of talent at this game that I've seen in a long-ass time and a great story to go with it. *You failed to see that. Cool. But YOU failed at not seeing it.* I enjoyed the show and got my money's worth. Woop.
> 
> So far, if pressed to show a random person one pro wrestling match from any promotion in 2011, I'd HAVE to show them Richards-Edwards.


You can't really say that. For some, there is no relevant story no matter how hard they look and for some there is a story there. I, for one didn't see an ounce of story-telling whatsoever. I think some matches have great stories and other's don't, but I don't proclaim that they "failed" to see the story, as there was none to them, in their view. It's like saying a movie is about a certain thing, when another interprets it differently it doesn't mean that they "fail" to see the other's interpretation.


----------



## Nervosa

peachchaos said:


> Cool, but for the record, I don't think the match is without any story whatsoever. In fact, some of the points Coponex75 brings up are just as valid as some of your arguments against the match. My main point is that you are looking at this match from the same old boring perspective that people have been looking at this sport for 20+ years now. And you mock one of the many influential guys that helped form the very study you're trying to uphold by completely dismissing Meltzer's opinion. You even adhere to the same dumb calendar as the Observer, but just because they didn't agree with your bogus criteria for enjoying a fake sport, they become totally irrelevant for 10 years or whatever. Bottom line is you've probably watched this match way more than the people that are defending it and you need to learn when to just back off and talk about something else. We get it. You didn't really like the match all that much. Yay. Woop-woop. I think its the most impressive display of talent at this game that I've seen in a long-ass time and a great story to go with it. You failed to see that. Cool. But YOU failed at not seeing it. I enjoyed the show and got my money's worth. Woop.
> 
> So far, if pressed to show a random person one pro wrestling match from any promotion in 2011, I'd HAVE to show them Richards-Edwards.


I apologize for miss-representing you, I just took your post at face value. Before I say anything I want to make that clear.

I don't want to say I entirely dismiss Meltzer's opinion, I just think it means a lot less than it used to, and that just because he rates something high certainly doesn't mean we all should, and even moreso, certainly doesn't mean the match had a story. I do like a lot of his opinions, espeically from years past, enough that I do PROUDLY keep the Observer calendar. I am greatly appreciate of what Meltzer has contributed to wrestling critique in general...he is the roger Ebert of his field, no doubt. When he calls a match five stars, no amount of debating changes, I give that a lot of respect. But as wrestling storytelling has gotten weaker, especially in the last 3 years, his ratings haven't went down as much as I feel they should have, and by respect has for his view has diminished with it. Just because you respect what I guy has done doesn't mean you always respect their opinions. When his rating was brought up for this match, it was shown in the context of 'hey, Meltz liked it.....just saying,' which is basically being used as a trump card. To me, Meltzer's rating is an even WEAKER trump card than comparing it to 90s AJPW. (many would say its the same thing) I just happen to think that he, like most wrestling fans and critics, have severely lowered the bar in a desperate act to make the modern era seem better than it has been. 

If wanting matches to have the workover-comeback story mode is 'the old boring perspective,' then I'm proud to be a fan of old boring wrestling, and to compare today's stuff to that standard. 

Why should I back off and talk about something else? (which, for the record, I have...see previous pages about ROH history) Because I am using actual reason and critique? If there are people still discussing the pros and cons of the match, I can too. That, again, is what the board is for. 

You say I missed the story of the match, and that would be fine...if you had actually tried to explain the story. Capone has tried and fallen short, but at least he was willing to go through debate to argue his point. If the story was there, why not say how? If by 'talent' you mean physical, athletic ability, I completely agree. That doesn't mean it had a story. 

I'm glad you enjoyed the show, and I certainly respect your reasons for it. I just maintain that in order to enjoy something like this, you have to ignore some glaring flaws. If you can do that, bully on you, but it doesn't make the flaws go away, and it doesn't remove my right to not only point out said flaws, but argue my side when someone just says they don't exist. 



Stringer said:


> You can't really say that. For some, there is no relevant story no matter how hard they look and for some there is a story there. I, for one didn't see an ounce of story-telling whatsoever. I think some matches have great stories and other's don't, but I don't proclaim that they "failed" to see the story, as there was none to them, in their view. It's like saying a movie is about a certain thing, when another interprets it differently it doesn't mean that they "fail" to see the other's interpretation.


Support this man. (if its a man)

One of the most annoying things in this discussion is people saying that those who didn't see a story are dense....and then failing to explain the story at all. There are enough people reviewing the match claiming the same as us: that there wasn't even a decent attempt at telling a story. At the very least, our side is giving several reasons (10 from me alone, for the record) that have yet to even be discussed properly, let alone overturned.


----------



## D'Angelo

Nervosa said:


> I apologize for miss-representing you, I just took your post at face value. Before I say anything I want to make that clear.
> 
> I don't want to say I entirely dismiss Meltzer's opinion, I just think it means a lot less than it used to, and that just because he rates something high certainly doesn't mean we all should, and even moreso, certainly doesn't mean the match had a story. I do like a lot of his opinions, espeically from years past, enough that I do PROUDLY keep the Observer calendar. I am greatly appreciate of what Meltzer has contributed to wrestling critique in general...he is the roger Ebert of his field, no doubt. When he calls a match five stars, no amount of debating changes, I give that a lot of respect. But as wrestling storytelling has gotten weaker, especially in the last 3 years, his ratings haven't went down as much as I feel they should have, and by respect has for his view has diminished with it. Just because you respect what I guy has done doesn't mean you always respect their opinions. When his rating was brought up for this match, it was shown in the context of 'hey, Meltz liked it.....just saying,' which is basically being used as a trump card. To me, Meltzer's rating is an even WEAKER trump card than comparing it to 90s AJPW. (many would say its the same thing) I just happen to think that he, like most wrestling fans and critics, have severely lowered the bar in a desperate act to make the modern era seem better than it has been.
> 
> If wanting matches to have the workover-comeback story mode is 'the old boring perspective,' then I'm proud to be a fan of old boring wrestling, and to compare today's stuff to that standard.
> 
> Why should I back off and talk about something else? (which, for the record, I have...see previous pages about ROH history) Because I am using actual reason and critique? If there are people still discussing the pros and cons of the match, I can too. That, again, is what the board is for.
> 
> You say I missed the story of the match, and that would be fine...if you had actually tried to explain the story. Capone has tried and fallen short, but at least he was willing to go through debate to argue his point. If the story was there, why not say how? If by 'talent' you mean physical, athletic ability, I completely agree. That doesn't mean it had a story.
> 
> I'm glad you enjoyed the show, and I certainly respect your reasons for it. I just maintain that in order to enjoy something like this, you have to ignore some glaring flaws. If you can do that, bully on you, but it doesn't make the flaws go away, and it doesn't remove my right to not only point out said flaws, but argue my side when someone just says they don't exist.
> 
> 
> 
> Support this man. (if its a man)
> 
> One of the most annoying things in this discussion is people saying that those who didn't see a story are dense....and then failing to explain the story at all. There are enough people reviewing the match claiming the same as us: that there wasn't even a decent attempt at telling a story. At the very least, our side is giving several reasons (10 from me alone, for the record) that have yet to even be discussed properly, let alone overturned.


It is a man 

I agree with pretty much everything you said here, still bewildered as to how this is ***** to some people.


----------



## geraldinhio

Stringer said:


> It is a man
> 
> I agree with pretty much everything you said here, still bewildered as to how this is ***** to some people.


Why would you be bewildered if some people rate it five stars ? It's a matter of personal opinion . I rated it four stars but I can see why people loved it . It was some great action . 

If people rate it five stars , more power to them . At the end of the day wrestling is all *subjective* , not your posts or mine will change anyones opinion .


----------



## D'Angelo

geraldinhio said:


> Why would you be bewildered if some people rate it five stars ? It's a matter of personal opinion . I rated it four stars but I can see why people loved it . It was some great action .
> 
> If people rate it five stars , more power to them . At the end of the day wrestling is all *subjective* , not your posts or mine will change anyones opinion .


It's my opinion that it wasn't close to ***** so that's why I would be bewildered if someone rated it that. I'm not against people rating it ***** but I was just shocked people are.

Initial reaction was like holy shit ****1/2, then rewatched it and it went down again.


----------



## Nervosa

geraldinhio said:


> Why would you be bewildered if some people rate it five stars ? It's a matter of personal opinion . I rated it four stars but I can see why people loved it . It was some great action .
> 
> If people rate it five stars , more power to them . At the end of the day wrestling is all *subjective* , not your posts or mine will change anyones opinion .


Everyone loves this 'wrestling is subjective' argument, and at its base, you're right, its true. Art is, technically, subjective, but if everyone starts talking about how Transformers 3 was the greatest film in cinematic history, I'm sure more than a few of us would be surprised.

And as it was said pages ago, good arguments HAVE changed opinion on this board. That is a fact.


----------



## sXsCanadianFansXs

There's a slight difference between Transformers 3 being the best movie of the year and Eddie/Davey being the best of the year.

The consensus for Transformers is about a 1 star whereas the average rating for Davey/Eddie is north of ****. I do understand that someone could genuinely believe it was the best of the year but a better example would be "The Wrestler" as it was actually acclaimed.

Another thing I don't understand is how you (I believe) called the match "tripe", yet you rated it 4 stars. Roger Ebert wouldn't call a movie he rated 3 1/2 stars out of four garbage. Your rating doesn't quite match the descriptor you gave it afterward. Four stars, for all intents and purposes (and you're a picky reviewer) seems to be the opposite of crap...

Hmm..


----------



## Nervosa

sXsCanadianFansXs said:


> There's a slight difference between Transformers 3 being the best movie of the year and Eddie/Davey being the best of the year.
> 
> The consensus for Transformers is about a 1 star whereas the average rating for Davey/Eddie is north of ****. I do understand that someone could genuinely believe it was the best of the year but a better example would be "The Wrestler" as it was actually acclaimed.
> 
> Another thing I don't understand is how you (I believe) called the match "tripe", yet you rated it 4 stars. Roger Ebert wouldn't call a movie he rated 3 1/2 stars out of four garbage. Your rating doesn't quite match the descriptor you gave it afterward. Four stars, for all intents and purposes (and you're a picky reviewer) seems to be the opposite of crap...
> 
> Hmm..


When it comes to my usage of the word 'tripe'....it's called hyperbole....look it up. 

Tripe, by the way, can be used as a synonym for 'fraudulent.' Since the equivalent of 4 stars out of five is actually 3.2 out of 4, which rounds down to three, yes, I think Mr. Ebert might just call a 3 star match winning Best Picture tripe.

Your The Wrestler comparison is pretty excellent, in that it was a good movie, but really couldn't be cosnidered great. The Dark Knight would have been even better, since its a movie that deserved to be nowhere near an Oscar, despite everyone thinking so for all the wrong reasons. Either way, you're right...but I will say the transformers concept was hyperbole...feel free to look into it.

I also used the word tripe in a sentence where I discussed bubz replacing Generico/Claudio, and that doing so would make me cry. If you took the first part of that post seriously, I guess I should tell you that bubz replacing it did not, in fact, make me cry, since you're taking jesting posts literally, now. 

Four stars is not bad, its just far, far away from being MOTY worthy. I should point out also that it was my first viewing. It would not surprise me if my rating goes lower to match those of Jaws and other reputable critics on other sites. For those who say match discussion on these boards never change opinions, that right there shows you're wrong. My point overall, even when using the term tripe, is that I didn't think it deserved the praise it got.


----------



## Bubz

Nervosa said:


> When it comes to my usage of the word 'tripe'....it's called hyperbole....look it up.
> 
> Tripe, by the way, can be used as a synonym for 'fraudulent.' Since the equivalent of 4 stars out of five is actually 3.2 out of 4, which rounds down to three, yes, I think Mr. Ebert might just call a 3 star match winning Best Picture tripe.
> 
> Your The Wrestler comparison is pretty excellent. The Dark Knight would have been even better, since its a movie that deserved to be nowhere near an Oscar, despite everyone thinking so for all the wrong reasons. Either way, you're right...but I will say the transformers concept was hyperbole...feel free to look into it.
> 
> *I also used the word tripe in a sentence where I discussed bubz replacing Generico/Claudio, and that doing so would make me cry. If you took the first part of that post seriously, I guess I should tell you that bubz replacing it did not, in fact, make me cry, since you're taking jesting posts literally, now. *
> 
> Four stars is not bad, its just far, far away from being MOTY worthy. I should point out also that it was my first viewing. It would not surprise me if my rating goes lower to match those of Jaws and other reputable critics on other sites. For those who say match discussion on these boards never change opinions, that right there shows you're wrong. My point overall, even when using the term tripe, is that I didn't think it deserved the praise it got.


Haha, glad I didn't make you cry. Honestly...I'm going to re-watch both matches as I've only seen them once each, and I wouldn't be surprised if I lower Davey/Eddie. I always do that, thinking about it now, it's quite silly to put it as my MOTY after first watch, usualy needs two watches to decide. Both are the most I've enjoyed a match in ages though so they both ended up at the top of my list, the story telling in Generico/Claudio was awesome though which will probably put it over the top. With Davey/Eddie, I agree the story wasn't told perfectly and they could have done a better job with that, but the action and the little bits of story telling they had in there I liked so much it was enough to rate it that high for me. We'll see though.


----------



## sXsCanadianFansXs

*sigh* If you want to get all technical, I said "north" of four stars so the average (when you convert it) out of four stars would probably be at least 3 1/2 for Mr. Ebert. I don't think he'd call that movie rubbish.

Anyway, I now understand that you will use hyperbole to try to support your arguments...


----------



## Nervosa

sXsCanadianFansXs said:


> *sigh* If you want to get all technical, I said "north" of four stars so the average (when you convert it) out of four stars would probably be at least 3 1/2 for Mr. Ebert. I don't think he'd call that movie rubbish.
> 
> Anyway, I now understand that you will use hyperbole to try to support your arguments...


If you pay a little more attention, you'll be able to tell that at the point I used the term tripe, I was talking to bubz in jest....I wasn't arguing at all. 

Besides, the boards are far too dry not to use at least a few forms of sarcasm.


----------



## antoniomare007

Seabs said:


> *Hiroshi Tanahashi vs Hirooki Goto - IWGP Heavyweight Championship - NJPW 18.06.2011*
> 
> _Well I loved this. Great action, big match atmosphere, great near falls and maybe most importantly the crowd was red hot for it. Can't remember if it was in here or on another board but I really do think that I'll love anything with a hot crowd. This one has a really big atmosphere to it too and they work a match that backs up the atmosphere so everything feels really important which is exactly what you want from a big title match on PPV. Goto focusing all of his major offence on Tana's neck was a nice focus point and besides during his comeback Tana sold it really well. I'm a motherfucking sucker for guys selling injuries during their own offence but especially during bridges and Tana not being able to bridge on his neck during pins was great. First time round he has to break the pin and then second time he goes for it he has to break the bridge but he still manages to keep hold of the pin so it played really sweetly off the first failed bridge. Tana going after Goto's knee was a nice sub story to it and they kept going with it. Goto didn't really sell it but I didn't think it was really necessary. Tana wasn't working it over and I saw it more as Goto had some damage to it so it was a nice part to attack when Tana was desperate. antonio mentioned the botches as plural so I'd like to know what he thought they were. Only one that I thought there was, was the botched roll up reversal but it played nicely into Tana's neck injury so I didn't think it mattered too much. Nothing else stood out to me as being botched. Climax is great. I really liked the pacing of the match too. Went 25 minutes and when you go that long it can drag in parts but it never did for me but at the same time I didn't think it was just one pace either as in there was a clear beginning, middle and end. Great near falls plus hot crowd always equals fun finishing stretches and that's what you got. Tana superhuman comeback is almost to be expected but I wouldn't say it bothered me in this case. Didn't feel like a couple of moves and the heel is done and it's not like Goto controlled the whole match without taking any offence from Tanahashi. Post match, firstly with Goto was a really nice extra touch and then the Bad Intentions part was great too. Tanahashi - "I love belts". Japanese wrestlers need to come out with morre frequent bursts of english because they always seem to be awesome, to me at least. There were a couple of flaws but I don't think there were enough or any flaws were overly impactful to hurt the quality of the match. Top 10 of this year for me so far._
> 
> *****1/2*


wow, I don't get it, if crowd reaction is so important to you (as it is to me, lol) then how didn't you enjoy Nagata vs Tanahashi better. I mean, the crowd was 50/50 for that and the match didn't have such clear flaws as Tana vs Goto. 

Normally I don't care much for Tana's Super comeback, but this time it was too much. I mean Goto killed Tanahashi after all those vicious bumps (I'm willing to believe that those spots weren't botches) and all of a sudden a concussed Tana was able to make a comeback and hit 2 High Fly Flows and win???


----------



## patrickshelley

Seabs said:


> *Hayato vs Kanemoto
> Devitt vs Richards
> Ibushi vs KUSHIDA
> Devitt vs TJP
> Liger vs Sasuke
> Devitt vs Hayato
> Devitt vs Omega
> Omega vs Richards
> Richards vs Ibushi
> 
> *


Liger vs Sasuke suck'd big time.
Id like to add
Mascara vs TAKA
Mascara vs Liger
KUSHIDA vs Daisuke Sasaki

But im still watching the third night as i write this


----------



## seabs

antoniomare007 said:


> wow, I don't get it, if crowd reaction is so important to you (as it is to me, lol) then how didn't you enjoy Nagata vs Tanahashi better. I mean, the crowd was 50/50 for that and the match didn't have such clear flaws as Tana vs Goto.
> 
> Normally I don't care much for Tana's Super comeback, but this time it was too much. I mean Goto killed Tanahashi after all those vicious bumps (I'm willing to believe that those spots weren't botches) and all of a sudden a concussed Tana was able to make a comeback and hit 2 High Fly Flows and win???


*I'm still confused myself as to why I didn't like Nagata/Tanahashi more than I did too. I did enjoy it btw, just didn't love it. Never got into it myself and I didn't think the action was that spectacular anyway. I'm definitely gonna rewatch that match before the end of the year though because on paper it's something that I should love.*

*SHINGO, Cyber Kong, KAGETORA & Taku Iwasa vs CIMA, Gamma, Dragon Kid & Ricochet - Captains Fall Loser Revives Elimination Match - Dragon Gate 05.05.2011*
_Spoke before about how much I love the stip so I wont go into it all again. It opens up so many possibilities to explore and the storytelling is great in them. They played really nicely of Kageota's roll up on CIMA and SHINGO managing to overcome the 4 on 1 handicap by pinning the captain was great. Made SHINGO look great after being out injured but with the captains fall stip they didn't have to have him steamroll through all 4 members. Set up Dragon Kid being kicked out of Blood Warriors really nicely too. Action is typically great and thanks to the mutliple eliminations there's no drag and you don't need to have everyone kick out of crazy stuff._

******

*Nagata vs Suwama and the Big Japan vs All Japan tag on the 19/6 AJPW PPV were both good but kinda disappointing. 

The tag was much slower paced than their other matches and was also shorter so the slower pace was odd. Felt kinda basic and they cut a load of stuff out that they did in the previous matches so it felt like they were going backwards. It was a perfectly good match in it's own right but when you look back 2 matches that were loads better than this, some may even say 3. Would have been fine as the 1st match of the series I guess.

Nagata/Suwama was very similar to the Champions Carnival match in K.Hall but without the hot crowd and it dragged more this time around. They used most of the same spots from before and Nagata worked over the arm again. Again thought it felt backwards as they already had a better match than this. Could have done with 5-10 minutes cutting out and it would have been better for it imo. I'd still say both matches were good, ***1/2 and ***3/4 respectively but it didn't feel like either advanced.*


----------



## Nervosa

Seabs said:


> *SHINGO, Cyber Kong, KAGETORA & Taku Iwasa vs CIMA, Gamma, Dragon Kid & Ricochet - Captains Fall Loser Revives Elimination Match - Dragon Gate 05.05.2011*
> _Spoke before about how much I love the stip so I wont go into it all again. It opens up so many possibilities to explore and the storytelling is great in them. They played really nicely of Kageota's roll up on CIMA and SHINGO managing to overcome the 4 on 1 handicap by pinning the captain was great. Made SHINGO look great after being out injured but with the captains fall stip they didn't have to have him steamroll through all 4 members. Set up Dragon Kid being kicked out of Blood Warriors really nicely too. Action is typically great and thanks to the mutliple eliminations there's no drag and you don't need to have everyone kick out of crazy stuff._
> 
> ******


Hey man,

Before I watch this, can you explain how the rules work?


----------



## seabs

*4 on 4 elimination tag. You can be eliminated via pinfall, submission or over the top rope (this is an important one to remember). When one member of the opposition team is eliminated, the other team can revive a member of their team who had been previously eliminated. The winning team is the team who eliminates every member of the oppositions team. In the Captains Fall one though the team can win instantly by pinning the captain. The captains in the match that you quoted are SHINGO and Dragon Kid. *


----------



## Nervosa

Seabs said:


> *4 on 4 elimination tag. You can be eliminated via pinfall, submission or over the top rope (this is an important one to remember). When one member of the opposition team is eliminated, the other team can revive a member of their team who had been previously eliminated. The winning team is the team who eliminates every member of the oppositions team. In the Captains Fall one though the team can win instantly by pinning the captain. The captains in the match that you quoted are SHINGO and Dragon Kid. *


Thanks a million.


----------



## peachchaos

Very cool stip.


----------



## Bubz

Odd stip but it sounds like it could be fun. Might give it a watch.


----------



## seabs

*You should all watch the 4/3 Blood Warriors vs WORLD-1 match with the same stip but not Captains Fall ahead of that one. It's my #3 MOTY right now.*


----------



## Caponex75

Nervosa said:


> You’re summary of the details leading up to the feud is really good, and I am certainly not saying the little brother element isn’t there. But this was still Eddie saying that not only was he NOT Davey’s little brother, but his identity WAS the ROH world Champion, and that he could not stand being the champion in a company where everyone considered his tag partner the better wrestler. The hand shaking thing is your best point, but I still think that came off way more as Eddie saying “I’m the champ and you do things my way.”


I'm still providing overwhelming evidence to my case. While Eddie is champ, that isn't in half as big as the story the presented.



> I’m not pressing the ‘desperate champ’ story, I’m saying that they made Eddie the desperate champ just as much as they made him the whiny little brother going into the match. My problem is that they failed to DECIDE which Eddie was. For most of the actual match, he didn’t see any whiny little brother spots, all the way until the dragon screw. In fact, was there anything between the bells that actually told that story besides that’s one spot? Even if this WAS the intended story, I will say for a third time that telling it the way the Briscoes did five years ago would have made way more sense than what these two chose. I don’t think EVEN someone who wants their brother to go all out would do what Eddie did….I think they would say “I’ll show him not to take me seriously,” and slap the fuck out of him, like the Briscoes did.


:lmao Two completely different characters the Wolves and the Briscoes are. Briscoes are hooligans and country boys that would even slap the shit out of Jim Cornette on a clean break......heck, probably even their Father as well. That's the truth whether they are face or heels. Wolves aren't those two young punks that would mostly likely spit in your hand than shake it like they were two years ago. Davey Richards and Eddie Edwards are two of the most honorable men in Ring Of Honor. Eddie wouldn't do that any other competitor.....let alone someone he feels is his brother. So Eddie instead of doing what Richards did to him, which is give Eddie the clean break, he instead strikes at him which aggravates Richards enough to return the favor. That makes no sense for him to act like the Briscoes. That's ridiculous.

The only time Eddie is going to slap him is when he feels disrespected.....like when Richards starts treating him like a kid and doesn't dragon whip like he does everyone else.



> How could Davey possibly be wrestling the perfect match when all of his offense is failing? He never hit any move that got him any kind of control. Eddie’s need to hit a move without being worked over only REDUCES the effectiveness of Davey’s top arm moves and makes it impossible for him to be wrestling this ‘prefect match,’ you keep talking about. If he had gotten five straight minutes of arm work, I could agree with you, but he didn’t. Who cares if he ‘out-countered’ Eddie if the offense wasn’t even actually appearing to take a toll on Eddie?


I think I just answered this ~_~ Davey got about three minutes of him just being all over Eddie, whether he was "failing" or not. You tell me what seems to be going on and what seems to be a on going common move that keeps going on.

Backpack Stunner is turned into a cross armbreaker. Armbar nearly gets countered and Richards turns it into a Fujiwara Armbar. Eddie tries to counter with a clothesline which end up getting countered into Northern Lights and guess what? That gets transformed into a Kimura(Which is another armbar). Eddie is able to stand up and gets rocked with knees and kicks. Eddie gets into a headbutt exchange with Richards and ends up eating a kick to the head and a headbutt to the mouth. Superplex turned into a Flaconbreaker(Cross Armbreaker). Eddie turns it into a Achilles Heel and then that gets countered into a (Guess what)Cross armbreaker. Eddie tries to counter into a roll up but he ends up almost getting pinned.

Now I have wrote it out and PLEASE tell me Richards wasn't in control for that part. Eddie was trying to COMEBACK but kept getting shut down. It was no different then a wrestler trying to comeback with punches and then getting knockdown which resumes the opponents work over segment. Only difference was Eddie tried to do his finisher and that ended up getting him slapped into a another arm submission again. The whole point in wrestling a perfect match is NEVER being out countered and turning defense into major offense WHICH was what Richards was doing. Kinda like what Punk did to Joe in their first encounter. Sure Punk wasn't laying in heavy offense at the time but the match he was wrestling against Joe(Especially during the time Joe was just mercing people in 15-20 minute matches) was a darn near prefect match.


> You think the arm moves weren’t kills moves because they weren’t going after an injury? The first arm Davey works is the RIGHT arm, the one Eddie shattered: that’s going after a previous injury right there! You can’t tell me they weren’t going after previous injuries when Davey at one point works the arm most people associate with Eddie’s biggest injury…no one more than the NYC crowd!


Cross Armbreaker is a serious move......inside wrestling or not inside of wrestling. New York Crowd notices that and everyone notices that. Richards has beat TJP, Chris Hero, and Roderick Strong with the Cross Armbreaker and people in the UFC(Which was also happening later on that night) get whipped by that move all the time. Richards locking it out of nowhere on Eddie stunned the people watching. It being on Eddie's right arm was just sheer coincidence. Besides that, Eddie's right arm injury hasn't been that big of deal since...ages. At this point, it's so healed up that Eddie pretty much lariats the nonsense people with it daily.



> It doesn’t matter that Davey didn’t sell the headbutts...the point is that he STOPPED. Again, puro 101. Him not selling actually proves my point for me. Basic logic says that if Davey thought he was going to win the headbutt war, he would keep going. But he didn’t, so he switched strikes first. He only headbutts him ‘one-second later’ to put an exclamation mark on it after he already needed to switch strikes to win the exchange at all. Davey is stubborn; there’s no reason to think he would switch strikes if he thought he was going to win.


So answer me this, when Eddie had Richards leg and they were slapping each other before Richards turned that into a cross armbreaker, does that mean that Richards lost the slap exchange? Puro psychology does have it's worth in this match(Like the stand up strike exchanges I keep mentioning) but despite playing to both guys schtick it doesn't really here. It does in case of when Richards and Black did and Black clearly lost the headbutt exchange, when Go lost the chop exchange last year to Kensuke, or when Richards put Eddie on his can in the first strike exchange but not here. 


> What is a more impressive comeback? *A.* Someone works your arm for three straight minutes without you HITTING ANYTHING to EFFECTIVENESS during the workover


Fixed 



> You’re playing off the cross-armbreakers as finishers, but they really weren’t. Danielson won with armlocks all the time, does that mean when he uses them ten minutes into the match that they are finishers? What about O’connor rolls, or small packages? Danielson and Davey are both guys who have many, many ways to win, and just because they used a tried and true lock early doesn’t mean it was a finisher. The cross-armbeaker is not at all used as a finisher here, it was used as a workover. And apparently, an ineffective one since Eddie just bounces up minutes later and hits his own shit. Plus, even if these WERE finishing maneuvers in order to establish your twisted, incorrect conception of what ‘control’ is, all those moves are reduced to nothing when Eddie can just stand up and hit his own moves immediately.


I hate to say it but this is really a invalid one. You killed it all with the first sentence when Richards has been making people tap with it FOR THE LAST TWO YEARS. Heck, it was his main finisher in Super Junior Tournament last year. Whether you try to downplay it or not, the move is a finisher for Davey Richards and he was trying to finish off Eddie with it early. The last part of your argument is really frustrating especially if they are just limp finishers. Eddie should be able to stand up unless it's a knockout/murder finisher(Say like the Pedigree or DR Driver). Now if people straight up get up and hit their own moves like nothing then yeah, that presents a real problem but limp finishers are the only ones that pretty much okay for as long as they are sold as well. Kurt Angle(Back in the days when everyone liked him) would bust out a Ankle lock, people would roll out of it, and damn near get murdered with a Chokeslam or whatever. Falls under a completely different category. 


Oh and a couple things I want to put down, your argument saying that the person that gets knocked silly doesn't throw back equal offense is a lie. If that was true, Chuck Liddel would of been happy muthafocka after his match with Franklin instead of wondering what the hell happened. I think even Takayama/Frye falls under the same category but not to sure. I don't even keep up with MMA like that.

Oh and I wasn't to big of a fan of Goto/Tanahashi and thought Tanahashi vs. Nagata was better. When Goto did the close the gap thing with Tanahashi BUT ran past him, I face palmed. He really should of won that match though.


----------



## Nervosa

Caponex75 said:


> I'm still providing overwhelming evidence to my case. While Eddie is champ, that isn't in half as big as the story the presented.


We are now arguing about 'case presented,' and from that angle, I would love to direct your attention to the match buildup video. Yes, they mention the brothers thing, but Eddie also has the very prominent line of 'I'm the world Champion, if you haven't forgotten.' At the very least, the champion angle is AS prominent as the brothers angle. You have no reason at all to say its 'not half as big,' if they bothered to feature the line prominently in the video. At the very least, it just as much of a story point. 



> :lmao Two completely different characters the Wolves and the Briscoes are. Briscoes are hooligans and country boys that would even slap the shit out of Jim Cornette on a clean break......heck, probably even their Father as well. That's the truth whether they are face or heels. Wolves aren't those two young punks that would mostly likely spit in your hand than shake it like they were two years ago. Davey Richards and Eddie Edwards are two of the most honorable men in Ring Of Honor. Eddie wouldn't do that any other competitor.....let alone someone he feels is his brother. So Eddie instead of doing what Richards did to him, which is give Eddie the clean break, he instead strikes at him which aggravates Richards enough to return the favor. That makes no sense for him to act like the Briscoes. That's ridiculous.
> 
> *The only time Eddie is going to slap him is when he feels disrespected.....like when Richards starts treating him like a kid and doesn't dragon whip like he does everyone else.*


First off, just to address that last sentence...the REASON I brought up the Briscoes was for THE VERY MOMENT you address in that last sentence. 

Were you paying attention to when I first said this match should have been more like Briscoe/Briscoe? Because it was in reference to the VERY SPOT you mention, here. When Jay thinks Mark is going easy on him, he slaps him...when Eddie feels Davey is going easy on him, he DOESN'T slap him, COMPLETELY CONTRARY to what you say here. Eddie just sits there and demands to take the move. As I said, Jay forces Mark to wrestle seriously because he makes it clear that if Mark doesn't fight, he's gonna get slaughtered. Eddie does NO SUCH thing. He DIDN'T slap Davey when Davey hesitated....he sat there and told Davey to hit him. My entire point, which you completely misrepresented, is that they SHOULD have done what Jay Briscoe did in a parallel situation. You just reinforced my entire point with that last sentence. Thanks! Although next time, try and remember what Eddie ACTUALLY did in the match, and what my original point was. 



> I think I just answered this ~_~ Davey got about three minutes of him just being all over Eddie, whether he was "failing" or not. You tell me what seems to be going on and what seems to be a on going common move that keeps going on.
> 
> Backpack Stunner is turned into a cross armbreaker. Armbar nearly gets countered and Richards turns it into a Fujiwara Armbar. Eddie tries to counter with a clothesline which end up getting countered into Northern Lights and guess what? That gets transformed into a Kimura(Which is another armbar). Eddie is able to stand up and gets rocked with knees and kicks.* Eddie gets into a headbutt exchange* with Richards and ends up eating a kick to the head and a headbutt to the mouth. Superplex turned into a Flaconbreaker(Cross Armbreaker). *Eddie turns it into a Achilles Heel* and then that gets countered into a (Guess what)Cross armbreaker. Eddie tries to counter into a roll up but he ends up almost getting pinned.
> 
> Now I have wrote it out and PLEASE tell me Richards wasn't in control for that part. Eddie was trying to COMEBACK but kept getting shut down. It was no different then a wrestler trying to comeback with punches and then getting knockdown which resumes the opponents work over segment. Only difference was Eddie tried to do his finisher and that ended up getting him slapped into a another arm submission again. The whole point in wrestling a perfect match is NEVER being out countered and turning defense into major offense WHICH was what Richards was doing. Kinda like what Punk did to Joe in their first encounter. Sure Punk wasn't laying in heavy offense at the time but the match he was wrestling against Joe(Especially during the time Joe was just mercing people in 15-20 minute matches) was a darn near prefect match.


I would be glad to explain why Davey wasn't in control, in fact, I highlighted them for you, just in case you don't get it. Those two highlighted sections show that Davey had so LITTLE control that it causes him to LOSE...yes LOSE a headbutt battle. Heck, he has so little control he can't even keep Eddie from executing his FINSIHING submission! You have this conception that because that these move Eddie had weren't hit 'to effectiveness,' but they were, because they broke up Davey's control...rendering his previous moves useless. You yourself just wrote out spots where Davey LOST control. 

Even if Davey had had control during the whole section you typed out (and he clearly didn't) the fact is that you yourself pointed out that the entire 'workover' is a meager 3 1/2 minutes long. Eddie's comeback would STILL not mean a thing because he wasn't worked over long enough to make his comeback mean anything. Just by Eddie managing the headbutts and locking in the Achilles, he diminishes Davey's offense and disqualifies the section from being considered a control session. If he wasn't hitting 100% of the moves in the period, then no, he wasn't in control. 

But all this is of course rendered moot because Eddie couldn't even go three minutes without getting offense. Meaning then......that Davey wasn't in control.

It IS different then a wrestler trying a comeback with punches, because when they do that, its almost ALWAYS after they have ALREADY been worked over NON-STOP for an extended period of time.( at least in matches of any considerable length...like say, 36 minutes) That didn't happen here. I don't mind false comebacks at all...HBK was amazing at them...but only after a proper workover....and there wasn't one here. Davey never went five minutes with offense effective enough to keep Eddie from just popping up and hitting his own shit. That means he wasn't in control. 



> I hate to say it but this is really a invalid one. You killed it all with the first sentence when Richards has been making people tap with it FOR THE LAST TWO YEARS. Heck, it was his main finisher in Super Junior Tournament last year. Whether you try to downplay it or not, the move is a finisher for Davey Richards and he was trying to finish off Eddie with it early. The last part of your argument is really frustrating especially if they are just limp finishers. Eddie should be able to stand up unless it's a knockout/murder finisher(Say like the Pedigree or DR Driver). Now if people straight up get up and hit their own moves like nothing then yeah, that presents a real problem but limp finishers are the only ones that pretty much okay for as long as they are sold as well. Kurt Angle(Back in the days when everyone liked him) would bust out a Ankle lock, people would roll out of it, and damn near get murdered with a Chokeslam or whatever. Falls under a completely different category.





> Cross Armbreaker is a serious move......inside wrestling or not inside of wrestling. New York Crowd notices that and everyone notices that. Richards has beat TJP, Chris Hero, and Roderick Strong with the Cross Armbreaker and people in the UFC(Which was also happening later on that night) get whipped by that move all the time. Richards locking it out of nowhere on Eddie stunned the people watching. It being on Eddie's right arm was just sheer coincidence. Besides that, Eddie's right arm injury hasn't been that big of deal since...ages. At this point, it's so healed up that Eddie pretty much lariats the nonsense people with it daily.


Sure, but he still wears an elbow pad on it for every match, and commentators still bring it up all the time, usually talking about it as the moment the people noticed Eddie, especially in NYC.

I'm not saying the cross armbreaker can't be used as a finisher, I'm saying it wasn't in this case, especially since it was too early for ANYONE in their right mind to believe it as a finish. Again, I bring up Danielson's armbar, O'connor rolls and small packages, all of which he WOULD use to win occasionally, and even OFTEN during some series of matches, but they aren't necessarily ALWAYS used as a finishing move. Same thing here. You can separate all previous uses on a move like this...because in THIS context, the move was used moreso to workover the limb that get the win. If you really bought that as a possible finish so early in the match, you are truly the only one. 

As for your 'limp finishes' argument, I actually really like your point about comparing it to the ankle lock. I will say that EVEN when people were put in the ankle lock, it was rare they would get up and be at full strength enough to hit all their own stuff, like Eddie did. Good point, nonetheless, but if it is a truly a 'finishing submission,' you would think it would have a much longer toll. 



> So answer me this, when Eddie had Richards leg and they were slapping each other before Richards turned that into a cross armbreaker, does that mean that Richards lost the slap exchange? Puro psychology does have it's worth in this match(Like the stand up strike exchanges I keep mentioning) but despite playing to both guys schtick it doesn't really here. It does in case of when Richards and Black did and Black clearly lost the headbutt exchange, when Go lost the chop exchange last year to Kensuke, or when Richards put Eddie on his can in the first strike exchange but not here.


Yeah, I would say Davey knew he wasn't going to win the slap exchange. My way actually makes a whole lot more sense when you take into account the fact that Eddie had a complete leverage advantage with him holding Davey's leg. 

You say the Puro psychology works the rest of the time, but not here. Why, because I was right and you didn't see it? You still haven't given actual reasons why puro striking formula isn't happening here. Even in this post, all you say is that 'it doesn't (apply) here.' Actual reasons might be nice, Capone. You've been arguing this point a lot, but while I give examples and psychology, all you say is 'it wasn't there.'

You're actually arguing AGAINST one of the things these two did BEST in this match. 



> Oh and a couple things I want to put down, your argument saying that the person that gets knocked silly doesn't throw back equal offense is a lie. If that was true, Chuck Liddel would of been happy muthafocka after his match with Franklin instead of wondering what the hell happened. I think even Takayama/Frye falls under the same category but not to sure. I don't even keep up with MMA like that.


Yeah, if you had actually followed the discussion on the board its like I said....its a rare exception to the rule. I don't keep up with MMA either, but I happen to think in wrestling espeically, when you hit a big move and someone sells it properly...even if it makes them wobbly rather than knock them out.......its HURTS the quality of the move. That was certainly the case in this match, where Davey never hit ANYTHING in the early going that stopped Eddie from hitting his own shit less than 3 minutes later. 

That is a huge problem.


----------



## Bubz

So I did my rewatching...

*Davey/Eddie ****1/2*. So yeah, I did lower it slightly. I'm still a huge fan of the match though. I lowered it for two reasons...on second viewing it annoyed me a tad that the arm work in the first quater by Davey was so awesome and then it was just completely forgotten about and Eddie just stopped selling the arm work completely after being put in about 5 armbars. The second reason is that after Eddie injured his leg, almost all of his offense consisted of moves that he used his legs for such as double stomps and kicks. The double foot stomp through the table was cool but I couldn't help but think 'Why would you do that after injuring your leg so badly?' I guess you could say that Eddie would do anything to put Davey away though. I don't thnik thats something most people disliked about the match but it's something I have always been a bit iffy about. Some of the complaints about it by others didn't actualy bother me, at least not as much as the two things I stated above. 

Saying that though, I love too much of the match to go lower personaly. Oh, and Daveys counters were awesome and so were his strikes, one of the best matches I've seen him wrestle recently in terms of how good all of his offense looked. Anyone else scared when he went to powerbomb Eddie off the top? I thought something was going to go seriously wrong there the first time I watched it as I just watched his match with Ibushi from this years BOSJ and he botched a top rope spot in that match. He seems to be having a problem with that recently.

*Claudio/Generico KRRII ****1/2*. This seemed even better on rewatch. Not a lot I can say that I havn't already about this match. One of the best examples of how to sell I have ever seen if i'm being honest, it just shows how fucking awesome Generico is. The ending is a thing of beauty. This is almost perfect to me, I just wish it lasted longer, 5 more minutes and I would have rated it even higher.


----------



## Chismo

Rewatched Eddie/Davey. It's still ***3/4. Daniels/Generico was better.


----------



## seabs

*For the first in maybe .... ever, I'm up to date on everything I want to see from this year so here's my current list of everything ***3/4+ onwards.*

*Too awesome for stars*
_Colt Cabana vs Marty Scurll - wXw 16 Carat Gold Tournament Day 2_

****3/4*
_Satoshi Kojima vs Hiroshi Tanahashi - NJPW Wrestle Kingdom V
Hiroshi Tanahashi, Prince Devitt & Mistico vs Shinsuke Nakamura, Testuya Naito & Averno - NJPW 22.01.2011
Golden Lovers vs Apollo 55 - NJPW 23.01.2011
Shinjiro Otani vs Yoshihiro Takayama - ZERO-1 06.03.2011
Minoru vs Shuji Kondo vs Kaz Hayashi - AJPW 06.02.2011
Takashi Sugiura vs Trevor Murdoch - NOAH 21.03.2011
Kenny King vs Kyle O'Reilly - ROH Champions vs All Stars
Roderick Strong vs El Generico - ROH SoCal Showdown II
Briscoes vs All Night Express - ROH Honor Takes Center Stage Chapter 2
Colt Cabana vs Zack Sabre Jr. - wXw 16 Carat Gold Tournament Day 1
El Generico vs Kotaro Suzuki - wXw 16 Carat Gold Tournament Day 1
Sami Callihan vs Big Van Walter - wXw 16 Carat Gold Tournament Day 3
Jon Moxley vs Jimmy Jacobs - Dog Collar Match - IPW Showtown In Naptown
American Wolves vs Irish Airbourne - IPW Showtown In Naptown
Munenori Sawa vs Hikaru Sato - wXw Ambition 2
Davey Richards & Briscoes vs Roderick Strong & Kings Of Wrestling - ROH on HDNet 04.04.2011
Shinjiro Otani & Daichi Hashimoto vs Masato Tanaka & Kenta Kakinuma - ZERO-1 16.04.2011
Hiroshi Tanahashi & Yuji Nagata vs Shinsuke Nakamura & Masato Tanaka - NJPW 19.04.2011
Bad Intentions & Jushin Liger vs Manabu Nakanshi, Strong Man & Koji Kanemoto - NJPW 12.02.2011
Young Bucks vs Kevin Steen & Akira Tozawa - PWG DDT4 2011
Daisuke Sekimoto & Yuji Okabayashi vs Manabu Soya & Ryota Hama - BJW 28.04.2011
AJ Styles vs Bully Ray - Last Man Standing - Slammiversary 2011
Takashi Sugiura vs Claudio Castagnoli - NOAH/wXw Genesis In Germany
Jun Akiyama vs Taiyo Kea - AJPW 08.04.2011
Prince Devitt vs Kenny Omega - NJPW 05.06.2011
Prince Devitt vs Davey Richards - NJPW 26.05.2011
Davey Richards vs Kenny Omega - NJPW 08.06.2011
Kota Ibushi vs Davey Richards - NJPW 10.06.2011
L.A Park vs El Mesias - Hair vs Mask Match - AAA TripleMania XIX
Kotaro Suzuki vs Ricky Marvin - NOAH 08.05.2011
Genki Horiguchi & Ryo Saito vs SHINGO & YAMATO - Dragon Gate 12.04.2011_

******
_Naruki Doi & Ricochet vs Chuck Taylor & Johnny Gargano - DGUSA United: NYC
CIMA & Dragon Kid vs Masato Yoshino & PAC - DGUSA United: NYC
El Generico vs Eddie Kingston - CHIKARA Chaos In The Sea Of Lost Souls
Roderick Strong vs Jay Briscoe - ROH Only The Strong Will Survive
Takashi Sugiura vs Giant Bernard - NOAH 05.03.2011
Yuji Nagata vs Masato Tanaka - ZERO-1 06.03.2011
American Wolves vs Charlie Haas & Shelton Benjamin - ROH Honor Takes Center Stage Chapter 2
Go Shiozaki vs Kotaro Suzuki - wXw 16 Carat Gold Tournament Day 2
Daisuke Sekimoto vs El Generico - wXw 16 Carat Gold Tournament Day 3
Zack Sabre Jr. vs Jon Ryan - wXw Ambition 2
Prince Devitt, Ryusuke Taguchi & KUSHIDA vs Kota Ibushi, Kenny Omega & Daisuke Sasaki - NJPW 19.04.2011
Daisuke Sekimoto & Yuji Okabayashi vs Yoshihito Sasaki & Shinya Ishikawa - BJW 05.05.2011
Christian vs Randy Orton - Over The Limit
Chris Hero vs TJ Perkins - ROH Defy Or Deny
Claudio Castagnoli vs Davey Richards - ROH Defy Or Deny
Eddie Edwards vs Roderick Strong - ROH Manhattan Mayhem IV
Chris Hero vs KENTA - NOAH/wXw Genesis In Germany
Prince Devitt vs TJP - NJPW 28.05.2011
Kota Ibushi vs KUSHIDA - NJPW 28.05.2011
Jushin Liger vs Great Sasuke - NJPW 28.05.2011
Prince Devitt vs Fujita Jr. Hayato - NJPW 29.05.2011
Dick Togo vs Kota Ibushi - DDT 27.03.2011
PAC vs Naoki Tanizaki - Dragon Gate 06.02.2011
SHINGO, Cyber Kong, KAGETORA & Taku Iwasa vs CIMA, Gamma, Dragon Kid & Ricochet - Captains Fall Loser Revives Elimination Match - Dragon Gate 05.05.2011_

*****1/4*
_Masato Yoshino & PAC vs Naruki Doi & Ricochet - DGUSA United: Philly
Kotaro Suzuki vs Eddie Edwards - NOAH 29.01.2011
Smackdown Elimination Chamber - Elimination Chamber 2011
Eddie Edwards vs Christopher Daniels - 2/3 Falls - ROH 9th Anniversary Show
Daisuke Sekimoto & Yuji Okabayashi vs Seiya Sanada & Manabu Soya - AJPW 06.02.2011
Daisuke Sekimoto, Yuji Okabayashi & Ryuichi Kawakami vs Yoshihito Sasaki, Shinya Ishikawa & Masashi Otani - BJW 12.02.2011
Claudio Castagnoli vs El Generico - PWG Kurt RussellReunion II
Oberhausen Terror Corps vs Munenori Sawa & Hikaru Sato - wXw Back 2 The Roots X
Daisuke Sekimoto vs Big Van Walter - wXw Back 2 The Roots X
LDRS Of The New School vs Adam Cole & Kyle O'Reilly - wXw Kreuzzug ZXI
Daisuke Sekimoto vs Chris Hero - wXw Kreuzzug ZXI
Chris Hero vs Zack Sabre Jr. - wXw Kreuzzug ZXI Union City
Eddie Edwards vs Michael Elgin - ROH Defy Or Deny
Kings Of Wrestling vs LAX - ROH Manhattan Mayhem IV
Christopher Daniels vs Davey Richards - Pure Wrestling Rules - ROH Manhattan Mayhem IV
Young Bucks vs American Wolves - PWG DDT4 2011
Kings Of Wrestling vs Kevin Steen & Akira Tozawa - PWG DDT4 2011
Manabu Nakanishi, Kota Ibsuhi & Kenny Omega vs Shinsuke Nakamura , Jado & Gedo - NJPW 03.04.2011
Kings Of Wrestling vs American Wolves - ROH Revolution USA
Masato Yoshino vs Don Fuji - Dragon Gate 18.01.2011
Yuji Nagata vs Suwama - AJPW 09.04.2011_

*****1/2*
_CIMA & Dragon Kid vs Chuck Taylor & Johnny Gargano - DGUSA United: Philly
Akira Tozawa vs BxB Hulk - DGUSA United We Stand
Daisuke Sekimoto & Yuji Okabayashi vs Seiya Sanada & Manabu Soya - AJPW 21.03.2011
Zack Sabre Jr. vs Davey Richards - wXw 16 Carat Gold Tournament Day 2
LDRS Of The New School vs Adam Cole & Kyle O'Reilly - wXw 16 Carat Gold Tournament Day 3
CIMA, Naruki Doi, Naoki Tanizaki & Ricochet vs Masato Yoshino, BxB Hulk, Susumu Yokosuka & PAC - Loser Revives Survival Elimination Match - Dragon Gate 04.03.2011
Davey Richards vs Eddie Edwards - ROH Best In The World 2011
Hiroshi Tanahashi vs Hirooki Goto - NJPW 18.06.2011_

*Top 10:*
_1) Daisuke Sekimoto & Yuji Okabayashi vs Seiya Sanada & Manabu Soya - AJPW 21.03.2011
2) LDRS Of The New School vs Adam Cole & Kyle O'Reilly - wXw 16 Carat Gold Tournament Day 3
3) CIMA, Naruki Doi, Naoki Tanizaki & Ricochet vs Masato Yoshino, BxB Hulk, Susumu Yokosuka & PAC - Loser Revives Survival Elimination Match - Dragon Gate 04.03.2011
4) Akira Tozawa vs BxB Hulk - DGUSA United We Stand
5) Davey Richards vs Eddie Edwards - ROH Best In The World 2011
6) CIMA & Dragon Kid vs Chuck Taylor & Johnny Gargano - DGUSA United: Philly
7) Hiroshi Tanahashi vs Hirooki Goto - NJPW 18.06.2011
8) Zack Sabre Jr. vs Davey Richards - wXw 16 Carat Gold Tournament Day 2
9) Claudio Castagnoli vs El Generico - PWG Kurt RussellReunion II
10) Kings Of Wrestling vs American Wolves - ROH Revolution USA_

*Top 9 is fairly concrete. Suzuki/Edwards, Edwards/Daniels, BJ/Es and the New Japan 3/4 6 man could easily swap with Kings/Wolves at #10.*

*Who are people considering WOTY so far too? Thought about it myself for a fair bit and there isn't one single guy who stands out yet. Hero for example has looked like the best wrestler in the world but he hasn't necceserily got the matches to back up his performances. For example he looked utterly incredible in the Kings vs Shiozaki/Taniguchi tag from Japan but it wasn't the greatest match ever at all. 

Claudio's another candidate too and he's been having an incredible singles run in PWG too. I think both of their causes has been hampered by Kings not doing much all that meaningful in ROH so far this year. 

Davey's had a good year too and he's been far more tolerable up to this point but then I think back to matches like the one vs Hero when he was abismal so there's no way I could realisticly consider him due to his inconsistency.

Sekimoto's a fair shout. MOTY and a bunch of other great ones. Might be the best candidate atm.

Ibushi's been the best junior this year and he could have an outside shot with me too come the end of the year.

Eddie's been one of my favourite workers so far this year and he's had some great matches to back his claim up too. 

Sabre's has an awesome year too, especially considering he doesn't wrestle for a major promotion in Japan or US. He might have an even stronger case when the DVDs of his matches with Devitt, KENTA & Nakajima arrive.

If I had to choose now I'd say either Hero or Sekimoto but there isn't any clear winner so far? What does everyone else think?*


----------



## Bubz

Well, I think Davey has been in the most matches I have enjoyed. I agree about Hero, matches such as Hero/KENTA, Hero/TJP and Hero/Sabre were all really good matches, but Hero just looked out of this world in them. If he went on a singles run in the second half of the year in ROH putting on these types of wrestling clinics then I would definitely have to call him WOTY by years end.

Oh, and I loved the Wolves/Kings match from Revolution USA. The pace was insane, they literally went full throttle right from the start. Needs a rewatch though, the fact they hit big moves in the first few minutes caught me off guard but I ended up loving it.


----------



## Nervosa

I guess WOTY for me has to be Claudio, just due to consistency. I think second just might be Suzuki....which I never ever thought I'd type.

Seabs, did you just completely hate Suzuki/Nakajima? I don't see it on the list at all.


----------



## WOOLCOCK

If Black Terry has anywhere close to his 2010 run then he'll be my shout by a fair landslide, sadly I'm only up to about mid february for IWRG and any other promotion he wrestles in so I can't comment yet on him.

I'm not too much of a fan of the current indy style, but Hero definitely stands out as one of the few people I'll always make effort to watch in a match. I'm hoping he's calmed down on the amount of elbows though, he strikes them incredibly but I watched a few matches last year where his finishing elbow looked considerably weaker than some of the ones he hit earlier in the match and it sort of lessened the impact of it for me. He and Claudio are by far though the two brightest prospects on the independent circuit. 

Anything I've seen from Takayama especially in singles has been his usual stiffness and I can't recall the last time he had a bad singles match (tags don't count as Saito needs to piss off like yesterday).


----------



## Bubz

Nervosa said:


> I guess WOTY for me has to be Claudio, just due to consistency. *I think second just might be Suzuki....which I never ever thought I'd type.*
> 
> Seabs, did you just completely hate Suzuki/Nakajima? I don't see it on the list at all.


Your not usualy a Susuki fan then? I wasn't really until this year but he has impressed me quite a bit. Most of his defenses have been good to great.



> I'm not too much of a fan of the current indy style, but Hero definitely stands out as one of the few people I'll always make effort to watch in a match. I'm hoping he's calmed down on the amount of elbows though, he strikes them incredibly but I watched a few matches last year where his finishing elbow looked considerably weaker than some of the ones he hit earlier in the match and it sort of lessened the impact of it for me. He and Claudio are by far though the two brightest prospects on the independent circuit.


Yeah he has definitely calmed down on the elbows. I thnik he was trying to put across that it wasn't one type of elbow strike that put the opponent down, but the effect of taking lots of different strikes and eventualy not being able to take any more. His matches this year not in ROH have all been pretty technical and mat based (from what I recall) and his elbows seem even better now than ever. The fact that he has stopped using them so much has made them seem even more brutal when he does hit one.


----------



## KingKicks

Still got a lot of shit to catch up on but I'd go with Claudio or Davey at the moment. Swaying towards Claudio though.


----------



## Bubz

Claudio is just unbelievably awesome at everything he does.


----------



## WOOLCOCK

bubz123 said:


> Yeah he has definitely calmed down on the elbows. I thnik he was trying to put across that it wasn't one type of elbow strike that put the opponent down, but the effect of taking lots of different strikes and eventualy not being able to take any more. His matches this year not in ROH have all been pretty technical and mat based (from what I recall) and his elbows seem even better now than ever. The fact that he has stopped using them so much has made them seem even more brutal when he does hit one.


Good to hear then. It wasn't too much of a problem but just a little flaw that occasionally bothered me, although giving Hero credit it was more often than not his opponent bouncing right back up which contributed to it.


----------



## jawbreaker

Here's my MOTY list:

1. Kotaro Suzuki vs. Katsuhiko Nakajima, NOAH 3/5, ****1/2
2. Daisuke Sekimoto vs. Ikuto Hidaka, ZERO1 1/1, ****1/4
3. Claudio Castagnoli vs. El Generico, PWG Kurt RussellReunion II, ****1/4
4. Roderick Strong vs. Jay Briscoe, ROH Only the Strong Survive, ****

I haven't seen nearly enough (still missing four of Seabs' top 10 and two of Nervosa's top 5), but of what I have seen, these four matches stand clearly above the rest. Currently downloading the 3/21 BJW vs. Es tag, anticipating great things once I finally watch it.


----------



## antoniomare007

Just like last year, Daisuke is my WOTY (so far). Most of his great matches have been in tags with Okabayashi who has been awesome this year too, but Sekimoto has had a bunch of good/great singles matches too.

Hero is still the most talented wrestler in the world though.

The All Japan vs Big Japan 21/3 tag is my MOTY.


----------



## Nervosa

bubz123 said:


> Your not usualy a Susuki fan then? I wasn't really until this year but he has impressed me quite a bit. Most of his defenses have been good to great.


I just always pictured him in terms of his match with KENTA a couple years ago: a decent athlete who was more personality then skill. Even of his good days like tagging with Kanemoto two years ago, I would have never guessed of even CONSIDERING him WOTY. Speaks to how wide open it is, this year. 



jawbreaker said:


> Here's my MOTY list:
> 
> 1. Kotaro Suzuki vs. Katsuhiko Nakajima, NOAH 3/5, ****1/2
> 2. Daisuke Sekimoto vs. Ikuto Hidaka, ZERO1 1/1, ****1/4
> 3. Claudio Castagnoli vs. El Generico, PWG Kurt RussellReunion II, ****1/4
> 4. Roderick Strong vs. Jay Briscoe, ROH Only the Strong Survive, ****
> 
> I haven't seen nearly enough (still missing four of Seabs' top 10 and two of Nervosa's top 5), but of what I have seen, these four matches stand clearly above the rest. Currently downloading the 3/21 BJW vs. Es tag, anticipating great things once I finally watch it.


I really will have to see that Zero-1 match, but I just tend to always hate Zero-1 when I try it. You should love the BJW tag....its amazing. 

I'm surprised you didn't like Steen/Generico....too spotty? I did see you saying you were getting sick of Generico a bit.


----------



## jawbreaker

I counted Steen/Generico as 2010, it was like #4 on my list for that year.

Sekimoto/Hidaka has a really good, simple story with some fun action. It built well, had lots of drama, and made me actually care about the finish. It has its flaws, but it did what it tried to do exceedingly well and was lots of fun on top of it.


----------



## seabs

Nervosa said:


> I guess WOTY for me has to be Claudio, just due to consistency. I think second just might be Suzuki....which I never ever thought I'd type.
> 
> Seabs, did you just completely hate Suzuki/Nakajima? I don't see it on the list at all.


****1/2-3/4

I liked it, just didn't think it was great. Good match. Suzuki's been basically the only bright spark in a shoddy year so far for NOAH. He's still got possible title defenses with Aoki and KENTA that could be really good too*


----------



## Bubz

Sekimoto/Hidaka from Zero1 is really great, I have it at ****1/4. Hidaka actualy looked more impressive in that match than Sekimoto did to me. Not as big a fan of the All Asia tag match (third in the series I think). It was really good but not great IMO, I loved the first match in the series though, awesome stuff, also at ****1/4.


----------



## Nervosa

bubz123 said:


> Sekimoto/Hidaka from Zero1 is really great, I have it at ****1/4. Hidaka actualy looked more impressive in that match than Sekimoto did to me. Not as big a fan of the All Asia tag match (third in the series I think). It was really good but not great IMO, I loved the first match in the series though, awesome stuff, also at ****1/4.


I actually liked what I saw of the first match WAY better than the third....problem is, its clipped, so I really can't judge it when there is ten minutes missing.


----------



## Bubz

I seriously had no idea when I watched it that it was clipped lol. They did a good job of the editing though in that case.


----------



## Nervosa

bubz123 said:


> I seriously had no idea when I watched it that it was clipped lol. They did a good job of the editing though in that case.


Yeah, I think Seabs' declared it the best clip of all time....and he's right!

I wouldn't have even been able to tell if it wasn't for the fact that it was a 30 minute draw that ended after 20 minutes.


----------



## lewieG

ROH Best In The World

El Generico vs Christopher Daniels: **** Heel Daniels rules. Calling for slingshot 450's, chanting for himself, putting on his belt, the guys an awesome heel. Great back and forth match, love that Generico finally gets some gold.

Davey Richards vs Eddie Edwards: ****3/4 Instant classic and MOTY for me at this stage. Everyone knows all the good things about this match, so I'd like to mention a couple of problems I had with this match, only minor things and didn't impact on the rating.

- Davey not selling the two brutal spots on the outside for long enough. He got back in the ring, took another double stomp, kicked out, had a quick rest and then dragon screwed Eddie's leg in the ropes, just felt too quick.
- Davey celebrating and posing when he hits a move, it's just annoying for me. He probably did it 3 or 4 times but the worst one was when he got Eddie in a cross armbreaker and took his hand off the hold so he could pose.
- Eddie yelling his opponents name as he hits a move. This is the most annoying thing Eddie does. He must've done it 6 or 8 times here, yelled 'Davey' as he hit a kick, or a stomp or whatever. In his MM4 match against Roderick Strong he yelled 'Roddy' as he hit a move about 10 times.

But those were just little things I wanted to bring up for discussion. Overall I thought it was an incredible match, and only behind Tyler/Davey and Steen/Generico (both 5 stars IMO) for ROH's best IPPV match.


----------



## Bubz

lewieG said:


> ROH Best In The World
> 
> El Generico vs Christopher Daniels: **** Heel Daniels rules. Calling for slingshot 450's, chanting for himself, putting on his belt, the guys an awesome heel. Great back and forth match, love that Generico finally gets some gold.
> 
> Davey Richards vs Eddie Edwards: ****3/4 Instant classic and MOTY for me at this stage. Everyone knows all the good things about this match, so I'd like to mention a couple of problems I had with this match, only minor things and didn't impact on the rating.
> 
> - Davey not selling the two brutal spots on the outside for long enough. He got back in the ring, took another double stomp, kicked out, had a quick rest and then dragon screwed Eddie's leg in the ropes, just felt too quick.
> *- Davey celebrating and posing when he hits a move, it's just annoying for me. He probably did it 3 or 4 times but the worst one was when he got Eddie in a cross armbreaker and took his hand off the hold so he could pose.
> - Eddie yelling his opponents name as he hits a move. This is the most annoying thing Eddie does. He must've done it 6 or 8 times here, yelled 'Davey' as he hit a kick, or a stomp or whatever. In his MM4 match against Roderick Strong he yelled 'Roddy' as he hit a move about 10 times.*
> But those were just little things I wanted to bring up for discussion. Overall I thought it was an incredible match, and only behind Tyler/Davey and Steen/Generico (both 5 stars IMO) for ROH's best IPPV match.


Oh jesus, I hate the calling of names, A LOT of wrestlers do it in the indys now, Roddy does it too but not to the extent Eddie does it. Davey doing the point thing while applying a cross armbar was fucking stupid beyond belief.


----------



## Nervosa

lewieG said:


> - Davey not selling the two brutal spots on the outside for long enough. He got back in the ring, took another double stomp, kicked out, had a quick rest and then dragon screwed Eddie's leg in the ropes, just felt too quick.
> - Davey celebrating and posing when he hits a move, it's just annoying for me. He probably did it 3 or 4 times but the worst one was when he got Eddie in a cross armbreaker and took his hand off the hold so he could pose.
> - Eddie yelling his opponents name as he hits a move. This is the most annoying thing Eddie does. He must've done it 6 or 8 times here, yelled 'Davey' as he hit a kick, or a stomp or whatever. In his MM4 match against Roderick Strong he yelled 'Roddy' as he hit a move about 10 times.
> 
> But those were just little things I wanted to bring up for discussion. Overall I thought it was an incredible match, and only behind Tyler/Davey and Steen/Generico (both 5 stars IMO) for ROH's best IPPV match.



I'm really glad you said that you actually WANTED to bring those things up for discussion. Too few people do, around here. 

Obviously, if you've read my review or any of the back-and-forth stuff with Capone, you know I found a whole lot of flaws in the match, and it really affected my overall rating. I'm actually really surprised at the problems you found, partially because I didn't notice them as much, and partially because you still rated the match so high, all things considered. 

Davey not selling is a big problem, but Eddie didn't really sell either. No matter what crazy moves either pulled out, the other one just came back two minutes later. In the end, all of their offense looks useless since neither ever hit anything strong enough to get them any kind of control.

When I read your second post about Davey's posing, I was thinking about how it really wasn't a big deal. Then I read your sentence about the cross armbreaker and I was like........."you know, that is really fucking stupid." You would think Mr. student-of-the-game would NEVER do something like that. I didn't even realize how mind-numbingly idiotic that is, especially since Capone has been claiming that the cross armbreaker is somehow a false finish in that particular moment. 

Like bubz, I HATE HATE HATE the name yelling shit. You guys know where this started, right? KENTA. KENTA started it years ago for all of his corner rushes. I actually didn't mind when it was JUST him, but now Roddy and the Wolves do it too and its just ridiculous.

Even more ammo for you to remove it from your MOTY list in your sig, bubz.  C'mon man.....Claudio deserves it! He'd do it for you!


----------



## Bubz

Nervosa said:


> I'm really glad you said that you actually WANTED to bring those things up for discussion. Too few people do, around here.
> 
> Obviously, if you've read my review or any of the back-and-forth stuff with Capone, you know I found a whole lot of flaws in the match, and it really affected my overall rating. I'm actually really surprised at the problems you found, partially because I didn't notice them as much, and partially because you still rated the match so high, all things considered.
> 
> Davey not selling is a big problem, but Eddie didn't really sell either. No matter what crazy moves either pulled out, the other one just came back two minutes later. In the end, all of their offense looks useless since neither ever hit anything strong enough to get them any kind of control.
> 
> When I read your second post about Davey's posing, I was thinking about how it really wasn't a big deal. Then I read your sentence about the cross armbreaker and I was like........."you know, that is really fucking stupid." You would think Mr. student-of-the-game would NEVER do something like that. I didn't even realize how mind-numbingly idiotic that is, especially since Capone has been claiming that the cross armbreaker is somehow a false finish in that particular moment.
> 
> Like bubz, I HATE HATE HATE the name yelling shit. You guys know where this started, right? KENTA. KENTA started it years ago for all of his corner rushes. I actually didn't mind when it was JUST him, but now Roddy and the Wolves do it too and its just ridiculous.
> 
> *Even more ammo for you to remove it from your MOTY list in your sig, bubz.  C'mon man.....Claudio deserves it! He'd do it for you!*


Claudio/Generico is back on top after rewatching the matches, too much awesome in that one. Claudio is the man! I would love to drink Coffee with him one day. Davey/Eddie is still my second favorite match I'm afraid lol.

Going to continue my rewatching for the first half of the year now...Hero/KENTA, Hero/Sabre and Kings/Wolves. Yeah, I'm in the mood for some Hero goodness!

Before that though...*Hiroshi Tanahashi vs Hirooki Goto NJPW IWGP Heavyweight Ttitle match*

This was rather great. It started slow but soon picked up. Goto looked awesome and was the more impressive out of the two. Great leg work by Tanahashi though which Goto sold very well indeed. Dissapointed the leg work didnt really play into the finish, but it was used so Tanahashi could regain control throughout the match so it worked for me. There was a botch in there that kind of took me out of it near the end that looked dangerous but they picked it back up a few seconds after and got me back in to it. I've never been a big Tanahashi fan but he was great here. Crowd was red hot towards the end aswell. Oh, and it was STIFF as hell. This is my favorite Japanese match of the year. *****1/2*


----------



## seabs

*I really like the name shouting that Eddie does. He hasn't done it so much that it's just annoying yet and he uses it at the right times more often that not. Him screaming Elgin's name during that match and the screaming Roddy during the finish was a nice touch. As long as it's only used sparingly and before something stiff then it's fine.*


----------



## jawbreaker

Seabs, I still can't figure out why you liked that Elgin match apart from the hot crowd. Like, that is Exhibit A of why Edwards is a terrible babyface.


----------



## seabs

*Eddie's a great babyface man. He does the underdog role better than anyone else going atm. Granted he's lacking in charisma and he's not the most technically gifted but he does the little things right most of the time and he works his fucking butt off.*


----------



## Bubz

*Hero/KENTA ****1/4*
Great match. These two strike the living hell out of each other. The middle section is a tad long, but the finishing stretch is maybe my favorite of the year. The lariats from KENTA are so sick.

*Wolves/KOW II *****
This was still really good but not as good as I remember it. I really noticed the dead crowd this time, apart from the UFO (another example of Claudio's awesomeness) they were quiet pretty much all the way through. The action was great though and the stretch of the Kings just destroying Eddie for about 10 minutes was really good (I think this is an example of when Eddie is a very good babyface.)

*Hero/Sabre *****
Very good match with the highlight being Sabre's awesome armbars and Hero's awesome selling. I wish it had a longer finishing stretch as it seemed to end pretty quickly. The technical wrestling was amazing though.

So Hero/KENTA makes it in to my top 5 replacing the Wolves/Kings match which I was dissapointed with this time, still well worth a watch.


----------



## Nervosa

Seabs said:


> *Eddie's a great babyface man. He does the underdog role better than anyone else going atm. Granted he's lacking in charisma and he's not the most technically gifted but he does the little things right most of the time and he works his fucking butt off.*


See, this is interesting to me, because I would say that Eddie is GREAT in the technicality department, but DOES NOT get the little things.

The little things, to me, are storytelling basics. Eddie is horrible at this. He doesn't understand workovers or comeback, or even the most basic forms of timing. The guy can't go 5 minutes without getting offense in.

That's why I don't get when you say he's a great underdog: if he can't even sell a workover without popping up and hitting moves, how can he ever win sympathy? I've never ever wanted to root for him as an underdog in a singles match.....because he has never ever come off as if he was in actual danger.


----------



## SaviorBeeRad™

Just got back into wrestling again. Just watched Davey/Edwards for the first time and I loved it, easily got me excited about wrestling again  & it excites me even more that it isn't the number one match to everybody so I have more watching.  I also wanted to ask are there better Davey matches out there? Can I see people's top 5?


----------



## bigbuxxx

Gave Davey/Eddie ****3/4 the night it happened but rewatching it I think it's ****1/2. The couple times Davey went for the anklelock was a much better spot to do the achilies lock for obvious reasons. Also as somebody said earlier Eddie never had a credible pinfall attempt and there was no good/great finishing sequence and finished pretty abruptly.

SaviorBee, Davey vs. Tyler Black from Death before Dishonor 8 was vg and MOTY last year. Obv. KENTA vs. Davey from SuperCard of Honor IV but I assume you've seen that. Sorry no mas, don't really follow him too much.


----------



## Corey

I'd like to apologize to all my fellow forum members. It seems I must've been in a trance while watching AJ/Bully Ray's Last Man Standing match, as I severely ovarrated it. On a rewatch it didn't feel nearly as long and the finish pretty much sucked to put it plainly. Still a pretty great match, and TNA's best of the year thus far, but noy MOTYC level for me anymore. I'll stick with ****3/4+*

Also, I'd been thinking about the whole Wrestler of the Year of the discussion the last couple days, and while if I had to vote right now I think I'd choose Claudio or maybe Davey, I think Christopher Daniels definitely deserves some thought as well. I was never a big fan of his, but this year he's really been tearin it up and it made me a huge fan. His TV Title matches with Eddie, Claudio, & Generico are all fantastic. Great World Title match with Eddie, and the awesome Pure Rules match with Davey. He was a memorable part of a pretty good Lethal Lockdown this year and unless something goes horribly wrong or TNA fucks up with their booking, he should have another classic with AJ this sunday. The only thing restricting him is that ROH has put him with some shitty opponents this year (Bennett, Mark Briscoe, Cabana) and that he hasn't been showcased very much in TNA. But still, he should be up there.

In the coming days (week or two at max), I should have everything watched and/or rewatched and have an updated list.


----------



## jawbreaker

Seabs said:


> *Eddie's a great babyface man. He does the underdog role better than anyone else going atm. Granted he's lacking in charisma and he's not the most technically gifted but he does the little things right most of the time and he works his fucking butt off.*


I just watched the Elgin match a couple days ago, expecting it to be pretty good based on your review and several others. And it wasn't. Edwards countered almost two-thirds of the stuff Elgin tried to do. Elgin never got in any meaningful offense until the powerslam on the floor. Edwards was on top of him the whole match, and it never felt like Elgin had any chance of winning the match. Which, when he's supposed to be the powerhouse heel vs. Eddie's underdog babyface, is not the way it should go.

Cole vs. Ciampa from earlier in the show was pretty sloppy, because Ciampa is still very green and Cole gets a bit sloppy in singles matches, but it was worlds better than Edwards/Elgin in terms of face/heel dynamic and storytelling.


----------



## FITZ

I liked Eddie/Elgin, not as much as everyone else but I still thought it was good. I liked how Eddie was the underdog that just didn't give a fuck about how much bigger Elgin and stronger Elgin was. 

Cole/Ciampa was pretty awesome for an undercard match too.


----------



## Ali Dia

SaviorBeeRad™ said:


> Just got back into wrestling again. Just watched Davey/Edwards for the first time and I loved it, easily got me excited about wrestling again  & it excites me even more that it isn't the number one match to everybody so I have more watching.  I also wanted to ask are there better Davey matches out there? Can I see people's top 5?


My top 5 Davey matches:
- v Aries at Aries vs. Richards i had ****3/4 and my 09 MOTY.
- v Strong at HTCS night 1, had it at ****1/2 and probably my favorite match this year (havent seen the Eddie match)
- v Danielson at Final Countdown Tour Boston had ****1/2
- v KENTA at Supercard of Honor IV at ****1/2
- v Tyler Black at DBD 8 at ****1/2 (although people seem to like this one more than i did. I found the last 5 or so minutes tough to watch as it felt like it wasnt going to end)


----------



## Bubz

Davey's top 5 singles matches would be...

vs Tyler Black (ROH DBD 8) ****3/4
vs SHINGO (DGUSA) ****3/4
vs Chris Hero (PWG Seven) ****3/4 (I think I might like this more than most)
vs Bryan Danielson (FCT Boston) ****1/2
vs Aries (AvR) ****1/2

Maybe replace Davey/Aries with Davey/Eddie, not sure.


----------



## seabs

*Aries vs Richards was his best singles match for me. DBD 8 and PWG Seven I really disliked. KENTA match at SCHOH was good. Both Edwards matches are up there with his best singles matches. Suprised nobody's said the two Omega matches yet. His 2 matches with Devitt in New Japan are good too, oh and vs Sabre from 16 Carat. His matches with Strong pre mid 2010 are great too. Titanica is awesome and Battle Of The Best is probably my favourite Davey singles match. The 2 singles matches with Claudio are good too. That probably covers most of the Davey singles matches that I can recall liking more than your average Indy match. There's obviously other matches that people love too like vs Black and Hero.

Top 5 would be:
vs Aries - ROH Aries vs Richards
vs Omega - PWG As The Worm Turns
vs Sabre - wXw 16 Carat 2011
vs Strong - PWG Titanica
vs Strong - ROH Battle Of The Best*


----------



## Bubz

Ah, I forgot Titanica, I love that match, vs Omega at ATWT is awesome aswell, Davey wearing the horns was hilarious.


----------



## lewieG

Davey vs Omega was just a winning combination. Pity they never got their 3rd match in ROH.


----------



## smitlick

Not top 5 but Daveys best singles in ROH are

- vs Roderick Strong - Final Battle 2010
- vs Christopher Daniels - Richards vs Daniels
- vs Tyler Black - Death Before Dishonor VIII
- vs Kenny Omega - The Epic Encounter III
- vs Austin Aries - Aries vs Richards
- vs Bryan Danielson - Final Countdown Tour Boston
- vs KENTA - Supercard of Honor IV
- vs Kota Ibushi - Bedlam In Beantown


----------



## jawbreaker

vs. Black, DBD 8
vs. KENTA, SCOH 4
vs. Hero, Seven
vs. Strong, FB 2010
vs. Strong, Titannica


----------



## SaviorBeeRad™

Sweet yeah I remember loving Titannica but I haven't seen or remember most of the others listed so I have some stuff I need to see.


----------



## smitlick

*wXw - Back 2 The Roots X*
Big van Walter vs Daisuke Sekimoto
****


----------



## seabs

*Eddie Edwards vs Chris Hero - ROH World Championship - ROH Revolution Canada*
_Loads of things to love about this but there were also some negatives in there for sure. I'll get them out of the way first. The criticism of Eddie not being able to go more than 5 minutes without hitting a move is definitely fair in this match. There was only sequence where it became a problem though I thought and that was the sequence of moves that culminated with the springboards moonsault. Any other time I thought it was just Eddie showing that he wont die no matter how much gets thrown at him as well as teasing a possible comeback to keep the crowd hot and built to the eventual comeback. The part I mentioned was way too long to be a teased comeback and it should have been dropped really. The finish on paper sounded great but they didn't play it out anywhere near well enough. It was too rushed and over within an instant. Edwards really should have had the hold in for much longer before stomping on Hero's head and Sinclair needed to sell it better too rather than just decided enough was enough. Other than that there's loads of stuff to like about it. The arm work was great although it maybe could have lasted longer. Eddie did a fine job of selling the arm too even though at times it was questionable but it was never totally forgotten and he kept going back to selling it, even during his own offence which is always a big plus with me. There were so many great little things in the match too like Hero throwing elbows to the injured arm, Eddie doing the fisherman buster on the apron with one arm and after the series of kicks when Hero spun around for the elbow and he lost his senses. That last one was particularly awesome as he shouldn't really be spinning around after taking a load of kicks to the noggin in succession. The table spot caught me completely off guard and I'll say this for ROH, they do fucking awesome table spots. Largely due to them already having a table set up out there so you don't need to have the tedious pull a table out and set it up for a spot 10 minutes later that everyone now knows is coming. Totally didn't see it coming and because of that it worked so fucking well. Again Eddie played a brilliant underdog babyface I thought. Edwards taking loads of punishment but continuing to kick out and fight back totally works for his character so I was fine with that. Del Ray and Hagadorn getting caught cheating and then sent to the back was a great spot on it's own but then it came back into effect towards the end of the match and set up a great spot with Claudio coming out and creating an awesome near fall. The commentators need a really nice job of getting over all the key points of the match too. Only embarrassing moment they had was when Kelly said Toronto had seen many a great ROH title match and then only managed to list one and had to resort to including the one that was in progress. So yeah definitely a great match, maybe wasn't as great as I was hoping for and it could have been better for sure._

*****1/4*


----------



## flag sabbath

Just watched Tanahashi vs. Goto. Holy hell, what a match. They pound each other with relentless heavy artillery & the crowd goes suitably ballistic. Probably my favourite Japanese match of 2011, just ahead of Sekimoto & Okabayashi vs Sanada & Soya #3 (a masterclass in keeping it simple) and the breathlessly entertaining Dragon Gate Survival Elimination bouts.


----------



## flag sabbath

I've been mostly out of touch with Japanese wrestling since the late '90s, so thanks to everyone posting recommendations here for helping focus my renewed interest.

Made it through the top bouts from BOSJ XVIII. I liked how they kept most of the matches fairly short & urgent. Highlight of the round robin was Kanemoto vs Hayato. I'd not seen Hayato before & found his style fresh & exciting. Kenny Omega, on the other hand has become borderline unwatchable - his match with Richards was like a cartoon on fast fwd.

Richards vs. Ibushi was predictably ace & the final was fantastic. Both guys running on empty but pushing through the wall for the big win.


----------



## Corey

*ROH - Revolution: Canada
*
*ROH World Championship*
Eddie Edwards(c) vs. Chris Hero - ****1/4

_This just had a really special feel from the start. Hero came out to his old "Chris is Awesome" theme wearing the Sweeney colors and it was great. He seemed really confident from the beginning and Eddie played the underdog role really well. Tossing Hagadorn and Del Ray from ringside I thought was a great move, gave it more of a big match feel with no one hangin around. Hero's armwork was awesome, so many different variations of moves and most of it looked legitly painful. Eddie sold it pretty well down the stretch, especially wheh had the achilles lock locked in and he couldn't clutch it fully because of the injured arm. Ring of Honor has had several surprise table spots this year, and there was another one here and it was the best out of all of them. So unexpected and awesome looking. All the strikes looked and sounded great throughout the entire match, and some of the final ones where they kept yelling "fuck you!" and "bitch!" back and forths at each other were cool as shit. The only, and I mean only, problem I had was that it was a bit overbooked and a little overkill down at the end. It certainly wasn't Davey/Hero level but there were a few times where Hero really should've won the match. Besides that though, this is an absolute war from bell to bell with some great wrestling, awesome strikes, and some drama towards the end. Eddie's workrate is top notch this year, I don't care what anyone says. Kinda makes me sad his reign is already over..._


----------



## topper1

Eddie Edwards vs Chris Hero
****1/4


----------



## Zatiel

lewieG said:


> Davey vs Omega was just a winning combination. Pity they never got their 3rd match in ROH.


I also loved it. Was tied with Kanemoto/Hayato for my favorite match of the tournament until the final night. Ibushi Vs. Richards was a show stealer.

Nothing would go on my MOTY list, but it was the most entertaining stretch of shows I've watched all year.


----------



## Bubz

*Eddie Edwards vs Chris Hero ****1/2*

I wont say too much as seabs and Jack Evans have pretty much summed the match up already and I completely agree. It was rather great, Hero's arm work was awesome and so was Eddies selling for the most part. The strikes were amazing here, they really went to town on each other. The table spot was epic! really did not see that coming at all. It was slightly overbooked towards the end like has been said, and the finish didn't come across that well, I think sinclair needed to wait a little longer. This could have been my MOTY if it wasn't for those little things. I enjoyed it just as much as Davey/Eddie, maybe more as the selling and workover by Hero was great.

Eddies performance was good but Hero was the star. He came across as a legit bad ass at times. This further proves to me that Hero is pretty close to being the perfect wrestler and easily one of the best in the world.


----------



## Bruce L

*Bad Intentions (Giant Bernard & Karl Anderson) vs. NO LIMIT (Tetsuya Naito & Yujiro Takahashi)* - New Japan, 5/3

I know this is a couple of months old, but bear with me. I'm not exactly sure how to describe it, but Bernard & Anderson deliver a tandem performance in this match that makes them look every inch the best tag team in the world. This probably isn't going to be on anybody else's MOTYC lists at the end of the year -- hell, it might not even be on mine -- but I wanted to make sure there was at least one hearty recommendation of it on here. Snowflakes? Probably **** - ****¼


----------



## topper1

Bruce L said:


> *Bad Intentions (Giant Bernard & Karl Anderson) vs. NO LIMIT (Tetsuya Naito & Yujiro Takahashi)* - New Japan, 5/3
> 
> I know this is a couple of months old, but bear with me. I'm not exactly sure how to describe it, but Bernard & Anderson deliver a tandem performance in this match that makes them look every inch the best tag team in the world. This probably isn't going to be on anybody else's MOTYC lists at the end of the year -- hell, it might not even be on mine -- but I wanted to make sure there was at least one hearty recommendation of it on here. Snowflakes? Probably **** - ****¼


A few people brought it up not long after it hit the net.


----------



## Bruce L

topper1 said:


> A few people brought it up not long after it hit the net.


I'm not surprised; I just didn't want to have to go through page after page of tedious bickering over the merits or demerits of Taker vs. HHH to confirm those other mentions.

But yeah; it's definitely my tag match of the year so far, and I wouldn't be surprised if it stays there till year's end. (I worry that the Sanada/Soya vs. Sekimoto/Okabayashi tags will be lost on me since I have no idea what's going on with All Japan these days; I was on a bit of a Suwama kick a while back, but that's faded.)


----------



## Manu_Styles

*NJPW Best Of The Super Jr. XVIII*
Kota Ibushi vs Rysuke Taguchi ****1/2

*Dominion 6.18*
Hiroshi Tanahashi vs Hirooki Goto ****3/4


----------



## seabs

*The AJ vs BJ tags dont have any backstory going into them other than Sekimoto/Okabayashi being the outsiders going after the belts.

I liked the Bad Intentions vs No Limit tag but it started to fall flat after a while and didn't really recover from it. The crowd was pretty bad for that show and it hurt quite a lot of matches like that and the Apollo 55 vs NRC tag.*


----------



## Rickey

TNA Destination X 2011
*
AJ Styles vs. Christopher Daniels(1 slip, so what?!)
Zima Ion vs. Austin Aries vs. Low Ki vs. Jack Evans
*
Also enjoyed
*Samoa Joe vs. Kazarian
RVD vs. Jerry Lynn*


----------



## TelkEvolon

Samoa Joe vs Kazarian: ***1/2

Doug Williams vs Mark Haskins: ***

GenMe vs Shark Boy & Eric Young: **3/4

Alex Shelley vs Robbie E vs Shannon Moore vs Amazing Red: *** 

RVD vs Jerry Lynn: ***3/4

Austin Aries vs Low Ki vs Jack Evans vs Zima Ion: ****1/4

Abyss vs Brian Kendrick: ***

AJ Styles vs Christopher Daniels: ****1/2


----------



## seancarleton77

Is there anything from Destination X that I absolutely have to see (****+)


----------



## CM Skittle

I think the best match at Destination X was Austin Aries vs. Zima Ion vs. Jack Evans vs. Low-Ki and I'd rate it ***3/4.


----------



## KingKicks

*TNA Destination X 2011*

Austin Aries vs. Low Ki vs. Jack Evans vs. Zema Ion ****3/4-*****


----------



## KingCrash

seancarleton77 said:


> Is there anything from Destination X that I absolutely have to see (****+)


The four way with Aries/Ki/Evans/Xion is the closest thing to it at ***3/4. Very fun match, everyone looked great in it, even flippy Evans.


----------



## sXsCanadianFansXs

I'll go **** for the four-way match.

All guys looked great and there were no botches.


----------



## jawbreaker

What the hell, TNA? That card looks almost good.


----------



## Manu_Styles

*TNA Destination X* - Austin Aries vs Jack Evans vs Zima Zion vs Low Ki: ****


----------



## geraldinhio

*Austin Aries vs Jack Evans vs Zema Ion vs Low Ki * - Super fun match . Everybody impressed me , but Jack Evans impressed me most . I was waiting for a botch everytime he attempted a big move but he excuted them with great fluidity . Really nice paced , some super cool spots and it really looked like they were going to kill themselves just to get a contract . I'd give it ****
I'd be very suprised if TNA didn't try to sign all of these man . Espicailly Jack as his spots and break dancing were super over with the crowd . Also A Double is a God , that is all . 

Fell asleep just before AJ / Daniels . Expecting a great match .


----------



## Bubz

Evans is great at what he does, he has improved loads since he was last in ROH.

*Destination X*

*Joe/Kazarian ***1/2*
Joe was on his game here, this proved to me that he can still be awesome when he is motivated. The crowd was eating up everything he did.

*RVD/Lynn ***3/4 *
This was way better than I expected, some familiar spots here from their previous matches. The leg drop on the chair spot was pretty great, marked out for that. Both guys looked really good and RVD looked the best he has since coming to TNA.

*Aries/Low Ki/Evans/Ion *****
This was just an awesome sprint right from the start. Some great spots and everyone looked impressive. Aries is so epic! The spot where Ki and Aries both had submissions locked in and they were both talking shit to eachother was so good.

*AJ/Daniels ***3/4*
The first ten minutes of this were great, but then after that AJ seemed off. It got kind of sloppy in the later stages but there was still some great bits of action.


----------



## peachchaos

Man, are Jerry Lynn and RVD old or what?

I'll go ***3/4 for the Aries/Low Ki/Evans/Ion match. Best Jack Evans has ever looked in the ring, but god is he a skinny little wimp. I wouldn't be surprised to see Low Ki back in a TNA ring real soon, the guy's just so intense. I'll watch anything in TNA as long as its Aries related.


----------



## KingKicks

*wXw Genesis In Germany*

Chris Hero vs. KENTA ******

*NJPW 18/6/2011*

Hiroshi Tanahashi vs Hirooki Goto *****¼*


----------



## Alan4L

Updated for 7/11 (New additions in bold) 

Including Dec 2010, Observer style. 

*WWE: *
Royal Rumble (1/30) ****3/4
*CM Punk vs. Rey Mysterio (6/19) ****1/2*
Alberto Del Rio vs. Christian (Ladder Match) (5/1) ****1/2
Undertaker vs. HHH (4/3) ****1/2
Randy Orton vs. Christian (5/22) ****1/4
*Usos/Barretta vs. Slater/Gabriel/Kidd (6/30) ****1/4
Randy Orton vs. Sheamus (6/10) ****1/4
CM Punk vs. Rey Mysterio vs. Alberto Del Rio (6/19) ****1/4*
Smackdown Elimination Chamber (2/20) ****1/4
John Morrison vs. Sheamus (12/19) ****1/4
*Dolph Ziggler vs. Kofi Kingston (6/19) ****
Randy Orton vs. Christian (6/19) ****
The Usos vs. Slater/Gabriel (6/2) *****
The Miz vs. John Cena vs. John Morrison (Cage Match) (5/1) ****
CM Punk vs. Randy Orton (Last Man Standing) (5/1) ****
Kofi Kingston vs. Sheamus (Table Match) (5/1) **** 
David Hart Smith vs. Zack Ryder (4/28 ) ****
John Cena vs. Dolph Ziggler (12/20) ****
Alberto Del Rio vs. Kofi Kingston (2/20) ****
Raw Elimination Chamber (2/20) ****
Daniel Bryan vs. The Miz (2/14) ****
CM Punk vs. Rey Mysterio (5/30) ****

*Puro: *
*Kota Ibushi vs. Ryusuke Taguchi (6/10) (NJPW) ******
Mochizuki/Fujii vs. Maraha Isappa (2/6) (DG) *****
Hiroshi Tanahashi vs. Yuji Nagata (4/3) (NJPW) ****3/4
Kaz Hayashi vs. Minoru (1/2) (AJPW) ****3/4
*Hiroshi Tanahashi vs. Hirooki Goto (6/18 ) (NJPW) ****3/4
Sekimoto/Okabayashi vs. Hama/Soya (4/28 ) (BJW) ****3/4
Dick Togo vs. Kota Ibushi (3/27) (DDT) ****1/2
Maraha Isappa vs. Takagi/YAMATO (4/12) (DG) ****1/2
Sekimoto/Okabayashi vs. Sanada/Soya (6/19) (AJPW) ****1/2*
Kotaro Suzuki vs. Katsuhiko Nakajima (3/5) (NOAH) ****1/2
Sanada/Soya vs. Sekimoto/Okabayashi (2/6) (AJPW) ****1/2
Sanada/Soya vs. Sekimoto/Okabayashi (3/21) (AJPW) ****1/2
Yuji Nagata vs. Suwama (4/9) (AJPW) ****1/2
Masato Yoshino vs. Don Fujii (1/18 ) (DG) ****1/2
Hiroshi Tanahashi vs. Satoshi Kojima (1/4) (NJPW) ****1/2
Prince Devitt vs. Kota Ibushi (1/4) (NJPW) ****1/2
Takashi Sugiura vs. Takeshi Morishima (12/5) (NOAH) ****1/2
Kings Of Wrestling vs. Takayama/Sano (12/5) (NOAH) ****1/2
Kings Of Wrestling vs. Morishima/Taniguchi (5/14) (NOAH) ****1/2
Takashi Sugiura vs. Dave Mastiff (5/13) (NOAH) (****1/2)
Katsuhuki Nakajima vs. Go Shiozaki (5/14) (NOAH) ****1/4
Minoru Suzuki vs. Yuji Nagata (1/4) (NJPW) ****1/4
Apollo55 vs. Golden Lovers (1/23) (NJPW) ****1/4
YAMATO vs. BxB Hulk (12/26) (DG) ****1/4
Daisuke Sekimoto vs. Ikuto Hidaka (1/1) (Z1) ****1/4 
KENTA vs. Naomichi Marufuji (12/5) (NOAH) ****1/4
Bad Intentions vs. Blue Justice (12/11) (NJPW) ****1/4
Hiroshi Tanahashi vs. Hirooki Goto (12/11) (NJPW) ****1/4
Satoshi Kojima vs. Shinsuke Nakamura (12/11) (NJPW) ****1/4
Shuji Kondo vs. Minoru (3/21) (AJPW) ****1/4
Hiroshi Tanahashi vs. Tetsuya Naito (12/12) (NJPW) ****1/4
Dick Togo vs. Antonio Honda (1/30) (DDT) ****1/4
Hirooki Goto vs. Tetsuya Naito (2/20) (NJPW) ****1/4
Kotaro Suzuki vs. Taiji Ishimori (3/21) (NOAH) ****1/4
Shuji Kondo vs. Kaz Hayashi (2/11) (AJPW) ****1/4
Hirooki Goto vs. Shinsuke Nakamura (3/6) (NJPW) ****1/4
PAC vs. Naoki Tanisaki (2/6) (DG) ****1/4
Yuji Nagata vs. Seiya Sanada (4/13) (AJPW) ****1/4
Dick Togo vs. HARASHIMA (2/27) (DDT ****1/4
Hiroshi Tanahashi vs. Shinsuke Nakamura (5/3) (NJPW) ****1/4
Yuji Nagata vs. Masato Tanaka (5/3) (NJPW) ****1/4
Masaaki Mochizuki vs. YAMATO (5/5) (DG) ****1/4
Ryusuke Taguchi vs. Taichi (4/29) (NJPW) ****1/4
*Suwama vs. Yuji Nagata (6/19) (AJPW) ****1/4
Prince Devitt vs. Kota Ibushi (6/18 ) (NJPW) ****1/4
KAI vs. Shuji Kondo (6/19) (AJPW) ****1/4
Davey Richards vs. Kota Ibushi (6/10) (NJPW) ****1/4
KUSHIDA vs. Kota Ibushi (6/28 ) (NJPW) ****1/4
Go Shiozaki vs. Shuhei Taniguchi (5/8 ) (NOAH) ****1/4
Hayato “Jr” Fujita vs. Koji Kanemoto (3/26) (NJPW) ****
Davey Richards vs. Prince Devitt (3/26) (NJPW) ****
Kota Ibushi vs. Ryusuke Taguchi (3/26) (NJPW) ****
Sekimoto/Tanaka vs. Hayato/Hidaka (12/11) (Z1) ****
Sekimoto/Okabyashi vs. Sasaki/Ishikawa (5/5) (BJW) *****
Taiyo Kea vs. Seiya Sanada (4/12) (AJPW) ****
Jun Akiyama vs. Seiya Sanada (4/10) (AJPW) ****
Taiyo Kea vs. Minoru Suzuki (4/9) (AJPW) ****
Masato Tanaka vs. Hayato Jr. Fujita (2/17) (Z1) ****
Daisuke Sekimoto vs. KAMIKAZE (2/17) (Z1) ****
Nakajima/Mashimo vs. Hulk/Fujita (2/11) (KO) ****
Masaaki Mochizuki vs. Ryo Saito (1/23) (DG) ****
Togi Makabe vs. Satoshi Kojima (3/6) (NJPW) ****
PAC/Shiisa vs. Dragon Kid/Ricochet (2/10) (DG) ****
Shuji Kondo vs. Kaz Hayashi vs. Minoru (2/6) (AJPW) ****
Masato Tanaka vs. Yuji Nagata (3/6) (Z1) ****
Hirooki Goto vs. Satoshi Kojima (12/12) (NJPW) ****
El Generico vs. Shinichiro Tominaga (1/3) (UNION) ****
Aoki/Marufuji vs. Kanemoto/Tiger Mask (12/24) (NOAH) ****
No Limit vs. Motor City Machine Guns (12/11) (NJPW) ****
CIMA/Yoshino vs. Doi/Gamma (12/21) (DG) ****
K-neSuka vs. Fujii/Mochizuki (12/21) (DG) ****
Maraha Isappa vs. Mochizuki/Fujii vs. Shingo/Cyber (12/26) (DG) ****
Yoshino/PAC vs. CIMA/Kid (12/5) (DG) ****
Kondo/KAI vs. Doi/Tanisaki (1/24) (DG/AJPW) ****
Taniguchi/Morishima vs. Sasaki/Nakajima (1/29) (NOAH) ****
Eddie Edwards vs. Kotaro Suzuki (1/29) (NOAH) ****
Golden Lovers vs. Jado/Gedo (12/26) (DDT) ****
Zack Sabre Jr. vs. Katsuhiko Nakajima (5/13) (NOAH) ****
Zack Sabre Jr. vs. KENTA (5/14) (NOAH) ****
Kings Of Wrestling vs. Morishima/Aoki (5/13) (NOAH) ****
Yuji Nagata vs. Shinsuke Nakamura (3/20) (NJPW) ****
Apollo55 vs. TAKA/Taichi (3/20) (NJPW) ****
Apollo55 vs. Richards/Romero (5/3) (NJPW) ****
PAC vs. Naruki Doi (5/5) (DG) ****
Madoka vs. Ryusuke Taguchi (4/3) (NJPW) ****

*PWG: *
Steen & Tozawa vs. The Young Buck$ (3/4) *****
Steen & Tozawa vs. The Kings Of Wrestling (3/4) ****3/4
Claudio Castagnoli vs. El Generico (1/29) ****1/2
Kevin Steen vs. Akira Tozawa (12/11) ****1/2
The Young Buck$ vs. The American Wolves (3/4) ****1/2
Ricochet & El Generico vs. The Young Buck$ (4/9) ****1/4
Steen & Tozawa vs. The Briscoes (3/4) ****1/4
Kevin Steen vs. Chris Hero (1/29) ****1/4
Davey Richards vs. Low Ki (1/29) ****1/4
Peligro Abejas vs. Kings Of Wrestling (12/11) ****1/4
Young Buck$ vs. Fighting Taylor Boys (12/11) ****
Roderick Strong vs. Willie Mack (4/9) ****


*DGUSA/EVOLVE: *
*Tozawa/Taylor vs. PAC/Ricochet (4/1) ****1/2*
Akira Tozawa vs. PAC (4/2) ****1/2
YAMATO vs. Austin Aries (4/2) ****1/2
Akira Tozawa vs. BxB Hulk (1/30) ****1/2
Zack Sabre Jr. vs. Sami Callihan (4/19) ****1/4
PAC/Yoshino vs. Doi/Ricochet (1/29) ****1/4
*CIMA vs. Jonny Gargano (4/1) ****1/4
YAMATO vs. PAC (6/5) ****1/4
Gargano/Swann/Yoshino vs. Brodie/CIMA/Aries (6/5) ****
Cannon/Callihan vs. Yokosuka/Mochizuki (6/5) *****
Akira Tozawa vs. Austin Aries (1/29) ****
Chuck Taylor vs. Akira Tozawa (4/19) ****
Ronin vs. CIMA/Doi/Ricochet (4/2) ****
Ronin vs. Doi/Ricochet (1/28) ****
Ronin vs. CIMA/Dragon Kid (1/29) ****
Ronin vs. Aries/Horiguchi/Ricochet (1/7 airdate) ****


*ROH: *
Kevin Steen vs. El Generico (Fight Without Honour) (12/18 ) ****3/4
*Eddie Edwards vs. Davey Richards (6/26) ****3/4*
Roderick Strong vs. Eddie Edwards (3/19) ****1/2
Roderick Strong vs. Davey Richards (12/18 ) ****1/2
Kings Of Wrestling vs. American Wolves (12/17) ****1/2
The Briscoes vs. The All Night Express (4/2) ****1/4
Kings Of Wrestling vs. Cole/O’Reilly (4/2) ****1/4
Kings Of Wrestling vs. Haas & Benjamin (4/1) ****1/4
Davey Richards vs. TJ Perkins (1/28 ) ****1/4
Jay Briscoe vs. Roderick Strong (1/15) ****1/4
*Kings Of Wrestling vs. American Wolves (5/6) ****1/4*
Davey Richards vs. Claudio Castagnoli (3/18 ) ****
Kings Of Wrestling vs. LAX (3/19) ****
The Briscoes vs. Cole/O’Reilly (4/1) ****
Eddie Edwards vs. Christopher Daniels (4/1) ****
Davey Richards vs. Roderick Strong (4/1) ****
Haze/Nakagawa vs. Kurihara/Matsumoto (4/2) ****
Jay Briscoe vs. Kyle O’Reilly (2/25) ****
Eddie Edwards vs. Kenny King (2/25) ****
All Night Express vs. Cole/O’Reilly (12/18 ) ****
Kyle O’Reilly vs. TJ Perkins (12/17) ****

*wXw:*
Daisuke Sekimoto vs. El Generico (3/13) ****3/4
Leaders vs. Cole & O’Reilly (3/13) ****3/4
Davey Richards vs. Zack Sabre Jr. (3/12) ****3/4
*Chris Hero vs. KENTA (5/15) ****1/2
Leaders vs. Cole & O’Reilly (4/9) ****1/4
Chris Hero vs. Daisuke Sekimoto (4/9) ****1/4*
Chris Hero vs. Zack Sabre Jr. (4/10) ****1/4
Go Shiozaki vs. Johnny Moss (3/11) ****1/4
Go Shiozaki vs. Big Van Walter (3/11) ****1/4
Sami Callihan vs. Big Van Walter (3/13) ****1/4
Sami Callihan vs. Tommy End (3/11) ****1/4
Daisuke Sekimoto vs. Bad Bones (3/11) ****1/4
Cole & O’Reilly vs. Generico/Sitoci (3/12) ****
Go Shiozaki vs. Kotaro Suzuki (3/12) ****
El Generico vs. Kotaro Suzuki (3/11) ****
Davey Richards vs. Jon Ryan (3/11) ****
Colt Cabana vs. Marty Scurll (3/12) ****
Moss/Sekimoto vs. The Briscoes (4/10) ****
*Ricky Marvin vs. Katsuhiko Nakajima (5/15) *****

*Other:*
Leaders vs. Peligro Abejas (12/5) (IPW:UK) ****1/2
El Generico vs. 123 Kid (4/17) (Chikara) ****1/2
*AJ Styles vs. Bully Ray (6/12) (TNA) ****1/2
Low Ki vs. Austin Aries vs. Shiima Xion vs. Jack Evans (7/10) (TNA) ****1/4*
The Colony vs. FIST (4/17) (Chikara) ****1/4
Akira Tozawa vs. Eddie Kingston (4/17) (Chikara) ****1/4
El Generico vs. Eddie Kingston (1/23) (Chikara) ****1/4
El Generico vs. Marty Scurll (3/6) (IPW:UK) ****1/4
FIST vs. Team Osaka Pro (4/16) (Chikara) ****1/4
Sami Callihan vs. Adam Cole (4/9) (CZW) ****1/4
*Mike Quackenbush vs. Hallowicked (5/21) (Chikara) *****
Sami Callihan vs. Daisuke Sekimoto (4/9) (CZW) ****
AR Fox vs. Sami Callihan vs. Jake Crist (4/9) (CZW) ****
Tomasso Ciampa vs. Adam Cole (4/30) (ECWA) ****
Jigsaw/Quackenbush vs. The Colony (3/13) (Chikara) ****
The Osirian Portal vs. Tursas/Donst/Sanchez (3/13) (Chikara) ****
Leaders vs. Cole & O’Reilly (3/6) (IPW:UK) ****
Eddie Edwards vs. Mark Haskins (12/5) (IPW:UK) ****
Philly’s Most Wanted vs. The Osirian Portal (12/11) (CZW) ****


----------



## topper1

Tanahashi vs Goto 
DUD 

Maybe it was Goto's awful attire or something but I had to turn this off mid way through.


----------



## Bubz

topper1 said:


> Tanahashi vs Goto
> DUD
> 
> Maybe it was Goto's awful attire or something but I had to turn this off mid way through.


Whaaaaaaaaaat? I can see how his attire may put you off lol, but a DUD? Really? It started off slow with head locks and what not, but it got pretty amazing after the first 5 minutes or so.


----------



## lewieG

**** for both the 4 way and Styles/Daniels from Destination X. The last few minutes of Lynn/RVD were awesome too.


----------



## topper1

bubz123 said:


> Whaaaaaaaaaat? I can see how his attire may put you off lol, but a DUD? Really? It started off slow with head locks and what not, but it got pretty amazing after the first 5 minutes or so.


I haven't been watching much the last two weeks and had high hopes so maybe ill try to watch it again sometime.


----------



## seabs

*Takashi Sugiura vs Dave Mastiff - NOAH European Navigation 2011 Night 1*
_Man did Mastiff take the opportunity of a massive match with global interest and run with it. Match was really good in the early goings and it was kinduva basic heavyweight match but then Mastiff decided he was gonna steal the show and started fucking flying around the place and it instantly went from a really good match to a fucking incredible match for the finishing sequence. One of the greatest examples of how to turn the quality of a match straight up in an instant. I dont wanna spoil some of the crazy shit that Mastiff pulls off but when he fucking springboards off the ropes I lost my shit. He takes the best bump ever off a top rope german suplex too which looked really nasty but at the same time controlled. I'm guessing there's very few guys who will have seen Mastiff before so if this ends up being your first Mastiff viewing then you're in for a treat. He had an awesome match with Shiozaki last year in the UK too. I'd be really suprised if NOAH dont give him a tour soon after this._

*****+*

*Kings Of Wrestling vs Takeshi Morishima & Shuhei Taniguchi - NOAH European Navigation 2011 Night 2*
_Saw a live report from someone after this show saying that this was a true MOTYC and the best Kings match ever. Had a hard time believing that until I saw it and there's no word of a lie in that. That's some pretty hefty praise as Hero and Claudio have had some pretty damn good matches as a team. Hero + Claudio + a Morishima on his game + a hot crowd is bound to equal greatness and it does. Taniguchi is his usual kinda sucky self but he doesn't actually get all that much offense in and in no way brings the match down. Finishing stretch is incredible and although it's pretty lengthy it never gets to the point where they go too far and start doing too much. Some awesome near falls too and the crowd is fantastic for this. Serious MOTYC, up there with the 21/3 All Japan tag and the 16 Carat LDRS tag. My top 3 matches this year are all tag matches too btw. TAG TEAM WRESTLING FOR THE WIN!_

*****1/2*

*Go Shiozaki vs Katsuhiko Nakajima - NOAH European Navigation 2011 Night 2*
_So these two had the unenviable task of having to follow the incredible KOW tag and they only go and fucking match that match. Poor old Nakajima takes a fucking beating from Go's chops too and there's an awesome moment where the crowd are chanting for Go's chops and the camera shows Nakajima begging them to stop chanting. Nakajima's a tough little bastard though and doesn't let Shiozaki get away with this without handing some major punishment of his own via his viscous kicks. I dont wanna spoil the finish because this match is so good but they work the finish to an absolute tee and it was so fitting for a match with these two and the way that the match played out. Again, fast paced match that never once dragged or get too crazy that it's annoying. It's kinda corny but it's incredible when this thing called wrestling can leave you sitting on your own in front of your TV applauding. Best singles match of 2011 so far for me at least._

*****1/2*

*Zack Sabre Jr. vs KENTA - NOAH European Navigation 2011 Night 2*
_So if you thought that Shiozaki and Nakajima had an unenviable task then these two had a downright torrid prospect ahead of them of having to follow 2 back to back incredible matches. There were some small parts of the match where the crowd seemed to get slightly distracted but they had them for the majority of it. You could really tell from Zack's entrance just how nervous he was and how huge of a match this was for him. Only downside that I'd point out is some of Zack's facial sells are a bit distracting but it's not really a negative. Zack's selling as always is fantastic and his philosophy in all of his matches of just going for an armbreaker every opportunity he gets is great. Both guys kicks each other hard and there's an awesome striking sequence right at the end. 3rd straight match to end with the entire crowd on their feet standing and applauding and rightfully so. The hard cam shot of the standing ovation was great too as he could really see the whole crowd from it._

*****1/4*


----------



## aaron_mcn92

Wow, sounds like the shows came off even better on tape. Live, there was some great stuff but nothing that I felt would be topping people's MOTYC lists. My DVDs haven't come just yet but now I'm even more interested.


----------



## Alan4L

Awesome reviews Seabs! After seeing that, are you considering coming to DG in October?


----------



## B-Boy21

Seabs are you going to upload those shows? I was going to buy them but then I found out the US dollar means shit so I didn't. Could you please megaupload them?


----------



## antoniomare007

*just when I thought I had to only watch the MITB PPV this month....Seabs pulls me back in*


----------



## smitlick

Hey Seabs, drop me a pm if your selling those 2 nights...


----------



## TelkEvolon

seancarleton77 said:


> Is there anything from Destination X that I absolutely have to see (****+)


The 4-way is a must see. Amazing action.


----------



## seabs

Alan4L said:


> Awesome reviews Seabs! After seeing that, are you considering coming to DG in October?


*Doubtful. I don't really know anyone who'd go that kinda distance to go see a wrestling show. Otherwise I maybe would. The DG UK undercards have been forgettable though on the previous events.*


B-Boy21 said:


> Seabs are you going to upload those shows? I was going to buy them but then I found out the US dollar means shit so I didn't. Could you please megaupload them?


*I'll upload both nights but for those of you who can afford it and especially those in the UK you should really buy Night 2 when you can just to support the tremendous work that A-Merch did with the DVDs.*


----------



## Fighter Daron

topper1 said:


> Tanahashi vs Goto
> DUD
> 
> Maybe it was Goto's awful attire or something but I had to turn this off mid way through.


Match of the year so far.


----------



## geraldinhio

Tanahashi vs Goto was awesome . It took a while to get going but is probably my third moty so far . Claudio vs Generico is number one and I don't see it moving tbh .

I do have a lot of matches to catch up on though . Downloading Hero vs Kenta from the NOAH tour as we speak . Havn't seen much Puro besides NJPW , really need recommendations


----------



## seabs

*As far as puro goes the following are what I'd call essential viewing:*
_
CIMA, Naruki Doi, Naoki Tanizaki & Ricochet vs Masato Yoshino, BxB Hulk, Susumu Yokosuka & PAC - Loser Revives Survival Elimination Match - Dragon Gate 04.03.2011

Daisuke Sekimoto & Yuji Okabayashi vs Seiya Sanada & Manabu Soya - AJPW 21.03.2011
Yuji Nagata vs Suwama - AJPW 09.04.2011
Masato Yoshino vs Don Fuji - Dragon Gate 18.01.2011
Manabu Nakanishi, Kota Ibsuhi & Kenny Omega vs Shinsuke Nakamura , Jado & Gedo - NJPW 03.04.2011
Daisuke Sekimoto, Yuji Okabayashi & Ryuichi Kawakami vs Yoshihito Sasaki, Shinya Ishikawa & Masashi Otani - BJW 12.02.2011
Daisuke Sekimoto & Yuji Okabayashi vs Seiya Sanada & Manabu Soya - AJPW 06.02.2011
Kotaro Suzuki vs Eddie Edwards - NOAH 29.01.2011
Hiroshi Tanahashi vs Yuji Nagata - NJPW 03.04.2011
_


----------



## seancarleton77

TelkEvolon said:


> The 4-way is a must see. Amazing action.


Saw it ****. Aries was the MVP.


----------



## Bubz

geraldinhio said:


> Tanahashi vs Goto was awesome . It took a while to get going but is probably my third moty so far . *Claudio vs Generico* is number one and I don't see it moving tbh .
> 
> I do have a lot of matches to catch up on though . Downloading Hero vs Kenta from the NOAH tour as we speak . Havn't seen much Puro besides NJPW , really need recommendations


Yes!!!

The KOW tag and Go/Nakajima sound awesome, can't wait to see them.


----------



## Zatiel

Chris Hero & Claudio Castagnoli Vs. Davey Richards & Eddie Edwards - ROH: Revolution -USA

I was stunned how much I liked this match. Didn't read much praise at all and the show beneath it was so lackluster. None of the buzz their first match got.

But holy crap, this had all the strengths and even addressed the biggest weakness of the original. From the first minute Hero was literally going for the win, trying to knock Edwards out. I love that they went to dire 2.5-kickouts in the opening minutes because it actually helped establish that both teams were trying to explicitly win throughout. In the first match, which was grand and all, they wrestled the pace of a long match. Here the Kings brought the tactics of somebody who doesn't want to go long and winds up having to anyway.

Castagnoli was priceless for a lot of this. I loved his flying boot attempt to Richards when Richards was jawing with the ref. Their knucklelock spots were amazing.

Edwards was a great babyface in peril for the first act, and I like that they didn't just use that formula. Eventually Richards got in trouble, too.

You could gripe that it didn't have a molten finishing stretch like a lot of popular indy tags. Personally, I didn't need it. Hero just finally had beaten on Edwards enough to keep him down with the Deathblow.

Seriously the most fun I've had watching a tag match in I don't know how long. I'm not even a fan of the Kings - typically much prefer them in singles.


----------



## smitlick

NOAH 15/1
GHC Jr Heavyweight Tag Title Match
Marufuji & Aoki (c) vs Harada & Kotoge
****


----------



## Nervosa

World-1 vs. Blood Warriors 
Dragon Gate 3/4
Loser Revives Survival Elimination Match
****1/2

The amazing advantage these guys gain from wrestling so frequently during the year cannot be understated The little sub-stories, as Seabs pointed out, are the very best part of this match. A play by play would be redundant, so here are my highlights:

-Tanizaki is the star of the match. Period. When he was first pinned a mere 7 minutes in, I thought it was a bit abrupt…but I quickly realized how much Tanazaki is the runt of his team, and the flash pin works perfectly. As soon as he revives, he nails like one punch before his team tries to push him out of the way….then, when he tells his team ‘I got this,’ he is promptly rolled up and eliminated twice in 10 minutes, and before anyone else on his team has been pinned even once
- PAC and Ricochet have a really brilliant ‘gaijin rivalry’ that carries through the whole match. In this match, Ricochet always seems to take advantage of PAC’s over-aggression in the specific rivalry, tricking PAC into what ends up being a double elimination for Blood Warriros, and then low-blowing him before pinning him to recover from being two men DOWN. 
-Ricochet is eliminated shortly after, reviving PAC and giving World-1 a 4-2 lead.. PAC’s hatred towards Ricochet gets the best of him for a third time, and he slides into the ring and promptly dives over onto his rival…..eliminating himself. While I like the aggression here, and the building feud between the two, this ends up being the big turning point in Blood Warriors’ favor, and World-1 never really recovers. I think this spot was a bit too silly to be the fulcrum of the match. 
-Naruki Doi rules. That is all.
-After a big group beatdown, once again, Tanazaki tells his teammates he’s got it. By now, this gag is hilarious. Tanizaki comes so close to actually eliminating people, but succeeds only at scaring his team into thinking they are going to lose the numbers advantage due to his stupidity. Eventually, after Yoshino comes dangerously close to turning a 4-on-2 tide, Tanizaki finally gets his elimination, but only because he sacrificed himself to do it. Originally, I wondered why each team didn’t get a member back for this spot, but Seabs did some digging and explained to me that double eliminations get no revival here, which makes sense I suppose. If it’s a well-known rule, I have no complaints…it suits Tanizaki perfectly. 
-Yokosuka stands as World-1’s last stalwart, having made the whole match without even needing to be revived. He also got his team’s first elimination, and is relatively solid throughout. But even he can’t overcome three to one odds, and is eventually overwhelmed. 

Really good stuff, with excellent substories and, as always, fun flawless execution. Marks off for PAC’s brainless elimination, only because something so silly ended up being the turning point.


----------



## seabs

Nervosa said:


> Marks off for PAC’s brainless elimination, only because something so silly ended up being the turning point.


*That was actually my favourite spot of the whole match. It really got over the pure hate that PAC has for Ricochet with him putting wanting to take him out ahead of helping his team win. Plus it did a perfect job of getting the over the top rope elimination rule over too. Hulk and Yoshino realising he was about to eliminate himself and trying to stop him was glorious too.*


----------



## flag sabbath

*Naruki Doi vs. BxB Hulk* from the King Of Gate 1st round (Infinity #220) is well worth a look. They worked real hard to win over a crowd that had sat on its hands for the rest of the show. The final few minutes feature a bunch of stiff kicks, killer moves & convincing near-falls.


----------



## Nervosa

Seabs said:


> *That was actually my favourite spot of the whole match. It really got over the pure hate that PAC has for Ricochet with him putting wanting to take him out ahead of helping his team win. Plus it did a perfect job of getting the over the top rope elimination rule over too. Hulk and Yoshino realising he was about to eliminate himself and trying to stop him was glorious too.*


O trust me, I found it hilarious. Also hilarious: CIMA making fun of PAC a little later for it.

Here's the thing: if it came off as him saying 'Fuck the team, I hate you Ricochet!' Then I would agree. But instead, they made it look like he did it accidentally, with him clearly angry at himself after it. He still hates Ricochet, but if he had shown no remorse, it would have ended up coming off better. 

Also, the biggest problem of the match is the fact that this was a really big turning point. World-1 don't get another pin for the entirety of the match. If they had, and THEN eventually gone on to lose, I'd be ok with it...but this comedy spot ends up being the big turning point and I think that is a little silly.


----------



## Defrost

1. Hiroshi Tanahashi vs Hirooki Goto - Dominion 2011
2. Triple H vs Undertaker - Wrestlemania XXVII
3. Kota Ibushi vs Ryusuke Taguchi - NJPW 6/10
4. Kaz Hayashi vs Minoru - AJPW 1/2
5. Kotaro Suzuki vs Eddie Edwards - NOAH 1/29
6. Hiroshi Tanahashi vs Yuji Nagata - NJPW 4/3
7. Masato Tanaka vs Fujita Jr Hayato - Zero1 2/17
8. KENTA vs Yoshihiro Takayama - NOAH 1/15
9. Ryusuke Taguchi vs Taichi - NJPW 4/29
10. Prince Devitt vs Kota Ibushi - Wrestle Kingdom V
11. Koji Kanemoto vs Fujita Jr Hayato - NJPW 5/26
12. Kota Ibushi vs Dick Togo - DDT 3/27
13. Kota Ibushi vs KUSHIDA - NJPW 5/28
14. Prince Devitt vs Kenny Omega - NJPW 6/5
15. Hirooki Goto vs Tetsuya Naito - NJPW 2/20
16. Apollo 55 vs Golden Lovers - Fantasticamania Day 2
17. Hiroshi Tanahashi/Prince Devitt/Mistico vs Shinsuke Nakamura/Tetsuya Naito/Averno - Fntasticamania Day 1
18. Hiroshi Tanahashi vs Satoshi Kojima - Wrestle Kingdom V
19. Keiji Mutoh/Jushin Liger/CIMA vs Masato Yoshino/SUWAMA/Great Sasuke - GAORA 20th Anniversary Show
20. Blood Warriors vs Kamikaze - Dragon Gate 3/1
21. Hiroshi Tanahashi/Hirooki Goto vs Satoshi Kojima/MVP - NJPW 3/20
22. CM Punk vs John Cena vs Randy Orton vs Sheamus vs R Truth vs John Morrison - Elimination Chamber
23. Yuji Nagata vs Minoru Suzuki - Wrestle Kingdom V
24. Hiroshi Tanahashi vs Satoshi Kojima - NJPW 2/20
25. Edge vs Dolph Ziggler - Royal Rumble 2011
26. Kota Ibushi vs Prince Devitt - Dominion 2011
27. Guerrero Maya vs Virus - CMLL 6/7
28. Kota Ibushi vs Davey Richards - NJPW 6/10
29. Prince Devitt v Fujita Jr Hayato - NJPW 5/29
30. Ultimo Guerrero vs Hirooki Goto - CMLL 4/29
31. Hiroshi Tanahashi/Yuji Nagata vs Shinsuke Nakamura/Masato Tanaka - NJPW 4/19
32. Jushin Liger vs La Sombra - Fantasticamania Day 1
33. Kotaro Suzuki vs Katzuchika Nakajima - NOAH 3/5
34.Kaz Hayashi vs Minoru vs Shuji Kondo - AJPW 2/6
35. KENTA vs Zack Sabre Jr - NOAH European Navigation
36. Prince Devitt/Ryusuke Taguchi/KUSHIDA vs Kota Ibushi/Kenny Omega/Daisuke Sasaki - NJPW 4/19
37. KENTA vs Chris Hero - NOAH/wXw Genesis in Germany
38. Bryan Danielson vs Miz - Raw 2/14
39. Masaaki Mochizuki vs YAMATO - DEAD OR ALIVE 2011
40. YAMATO vs Hiroshi Yamato - GAORA 20th Anniversary Show
41. PAC vs Ricochet - Dragon Gate 3/1
42. Bad Intentions vs Muscle Orchestra - NJPW 2/20


----------



## Caponex75

Just watched the double main event of Supercard and I'm very impressed. The Briscoes vs. ANX was crazy fun and while Titus has normally been the guy coming up, Kenny King kinda stole it for me. He sold his can off this match and was just overall the star in this match if you ask me. This does a couple call backs to KOW/Briscoe like ANX trying to tie Jay to the ring post and another that I don't want to ruin. Overall most of the stuff made sense, both teams looked fantastic, and I don't recall a time I was just flat out bored watching it. The finish though was silly. The idea was/is great but Jay Briscoe got Shawn Michaels/Hogan'ed it when it didn't that. Call this weird but I have a strange feeling that one of the ANX are going to beat Richards for the championship.

Edwards/Strong continued right where they left off....Roderick underestimated Edwards the first time but this time he was having none of that. Strong just flat out proved from the get go that he wasn't overlooking anything this time and immediately puts Edwards in the danger. I didn't think they capture what they had in the first match but they did it better this time around. Edwards was great in selling his butt off for Strong and looking incredibly in danger for a good portion of this match including at the end there. My only real big problem is that like the Chris Hero match, the ending was just anti-climatic. The idea is great but it just seemed so forced and wasn't there as far as that big super win for Edwards. Probably hand and hand with the Hero match though.

After the match Edwards gets beaten up by Strong's gang member homies and almost gets his shoes taken if Richards doesn't come in to save him. Now instead of thanking his big freakin brother for getting Claudio out of his title match in Canada or saving him from getting his @$$ beat from the Truth coalition, he instead tells him he doesn't need his help(Because his face vs. boot idea was really working out for him) and showing little brother insecurities about how he needs to prove he is better than Richards......which no one is egging him on but himself. Then threats to quit and thus putting Richards with two decisions....ether be_ kinda_ responsible for Edwards quitting even though his only fault was looking out for the man's safety or fight your brother for the most prized possession that you've honed your now unbeatable style for the past 6 months on getting. Richards, of course, takes the less f'ed up route and tells him "Yeah, I'll murder you for the title" while Edwards finally feels happy. I really am digging this story. This and Edwards murdering O'Reily on the latest show makes this seem like one of the top storylines for the company.


----------



## starship.paint

Nervosa said:


> World-1 vs. Blood Warriors
> Dragon Gate 3/4
> Loser Revives Survival Elimination Match
> ****1/2


I personally rate it ***3/4. Sure, the storylines were great, of Tanisaki turning from a big fool to a hero, of CIMA being kept from returning. I liked the turning point of PAC eliminating himself in a rush of anger. 

However I don't think the in-ring action was off the charts, and it wasn't very fast-paced (I don't like slow matches). I also never really felt that World-1 had a real chance of winning. Perhaps going 4-1 at some point in the match would have helped, and also World-1's 4-2 advantage doesn't really count because PAC immediately eliminated himself. I also didn't like that Dream Gate champion Yoshino only scored roll-up pins.

Both Kamikaze vs Blood Warriors Elimination/Revival matches were better than this one IMO, probably because of the pace...


----------



## smitlick

So because they didnt do heaps of moves really fast, the match wasn't any good?


----------



## Nervosa

smitlick said:


> So because they didnt do heaps of moves really fast, the match wasn't any good?


I actually understand his criticism. There wasn't balls out crazy super nearfalls like we have come to expect from Dragon Gate stable matches. When you know what these guys CAN do, I can see why this was kinda weak by comparison. I don't agree, but I see his point. 



starship.paint said:


> I personally rate it ***3/4. Sure, the storylines were great, of Tanisaki turning from a big fool to a hero, of CIMA being kept from returning. I liked the turning point of PAC eliminating himself in a rush of anger.
> 
> However I don't think the in-ring action was off the charts, and it wasn't very fast-paced (I don't like slow matches). I also never really felt that World-1 had a real chance of winning. Perhaps going 4-1 at some point in the match would have helped, and also World-1's 4-2 advantage doesn't really count because PAC immediately eliminated himself. I also didn't like that Dream Gate champion Yoshino only scored roll-up pins.
> 
> Both Kamikaze vs Blood Warriors Elimination/Revival matches were better than this one IMO, probably because of the pace...


I only saw the 'captains fall' one, and hated it, just because Shingo got way too much offense and kicked out of way too many crazy things when he was down 4 on 1. I will agree that before that ,the action was amazing, except for the Cyber Kong stuff...which I just generally cannot enjoy. 

There was an early portion where they were up 4-2, and I'm not counting the part right before the PAC elimination, so I did think they were in control at one time. The action, I agree, is a step down, but the sub-stories here were just great, and I guess that makes the difference to me.


----------



## smitlick

wXw Ambition 2
Munenori Sawa vs Hikaru Sato
***3/4-****


----------



## seabs

*Considering when they went 28 minutes or something like that I thought the pacing was pretty damn incredible. Plus it helped that they could have multiple falls and not have to do the stupid kickout shit that often taints their matches.*


----------



## starship.paint

smitlick said:


> So because they didnt do heaps of moves really fast, the match wasn't any good?


How does my ***3/4 rating reflect that the match wasn't any good? But you've got the gist, yes, I do prefer for them to do heaps of moves really fast.



Nervosa said:


> I actually understand his criticism. There wasn't balls out crazy super nearfalls like we have come to expect from Dragon Gate stable matches. When you know what these guys CAN do, I can see why this was kinda weak by comparison. I don't agree, but I see his point.
> 
> I only saw the 'captains fall' one, and hated it, just because Shingo got way too much offense and kicked out of way too many crazy things when he was down 4 on 1. I will agree that before that ,the action was amazing, except for the Cyber Kong stuff...which I just generally cannot enjoy.
> 
> There was an early portion where they were up 4-2, and I'm not counting the part right before the PAC elimination, so I did think they were in control at one time. The action, I agree, is a step down, but the sub-stories here were just great, and I guess that makes the difference to me.


It's ok if you appreciate the stories... That's cool. I just don't appreciate them as much as you do. Maybe the first in-control part was too early in the match for it to really matter to me, I can't remember.


----------



## Rickey

WWE Money in the Bank

SD MITB Match
Orton vs. Christian(wasn't a fan of how it ended though)
Punk vs. Cena(that crowd reaction! Cena's reversal of the GTS into the STFU was great, never seen that before.)

Didn't even mind the big man match either.(Henry/Show)


----------



## Wrestlinfan35

Sorry, but I have to.

CM Punk vs. John Cena - ****1/2, and WWE's current MOTY.


----------



## Sephiroth

WWE Money In The Bank
Smackdown MITB - ******
Raw MITB - **** 1/2*
*WHC Title*: Randy Orton(c) vs. Christian - **** 1/2*
*WWE Title*: John Cena(c) vs. CM Punk - *******

ONE OF THE BEST MATCHES I'VE EVER SEEN!


----------



## KingKicks

***** for Punk vs. Cena

I don't care. If a match can make me feel like a 5 year old again, then it fucking deserves 5 stars. Amazing.


----------



## Corey

*WWE Money In The Bank*

*WWE Championship*
John Cena(c) vs. CM Punk ****1/4 - ****1/2
_I'm not even gonna review this. Everyone's gonna see it. It will be loved. A shade above Orton/Christian from Over The Limit as WWE's MOTY._​


----------



## Caponex75

Cena vs. Punk is head to head with Edwards vs. Richards for me right now if you ask me. Might not be a perfectly crisp match but you can't beat emotion. I don't care what you say. I'd rather watch a match that makes me go nuts and has me questioning inside my head then anything else. MY #1 MOTY along with Richards/Edwards that is also my #1 MOTY.


----------



## New Blood

Beyond the absolutely epic main event, the entire show from top to bottom was the best I've seen in years. Big Show/Mark Henry was one hell of a match as well as the two MITB matches and the WHC match.


----------



## JasperSmerth

Cena/Punk at MiTB is ***** for me. Best match since 'Taker/Michaels I. Props to both guys,


----------



## JasperSmerth

My MoTYs so far.

5. The Undertaker vs Triple H at WrestleMania 27. ****
4. Jack Evans vs Low Ki vs Austin Aries vs Zema Ion at Destination X. ****1/4
3. Christian vs Randy Orton at Over The Limit. ****1/4
2. Eddie Edwards vs Davey Richards at Best In The World. ****3/4
1. CM Punk vs John Cena at Money in the Bank. *****


----------



## -Mystery-

I told myself I wouldn't let the moment take me prisoner, but fuck it. ***** for Punk/Cena. Atmosphere was insane, the match was booked perfectly (Cena stopping the screw job only to cost himself the match was such an incredible superhero-esque moment), everything was just great.


----------



## dk4life

Money in the Bank

CM Punk Vs John Cena: ****3/4
It started of slow, with Cena showing some wrestling and then turned epic, my current Match of the Year! Cena put on a good showing, and Punk was awesome, the crowd reaction was fantastic, great match and great ending, haven't marked out that much, or been on the edge of my seat for that long, in a very long time!


----------



## SuperDuperSonic

Cena vs. Punk was easily ****1/2 at the bare minimum. EASILY Punk's best match in WWE, and the only Cena matches I'd compare to it would be WM23 and NOC 2008. No other match for WWE this year comes close.

This is a match that will hold up over time, unlike HHH vs. Taker. THIS is the surefire MOTY when the miscellaneous year-end awards come out. Cena legitimately lived up to his hype and did so without question.

I'd like to say that I'm very thankful that I watched Aries vs. Punk before the show. It only added to the match.

The ladder matches and Orton vs. Christian are in the **** range as well. This should be put on blu ray, but considering there's another Ladder Match set plus a Best 2011 PPV matches set coming out before the end of the year, I'm sure we'll get the shit we need on blu ray from this show.


----------



## antoniomare007

*CM Punk vs John Cena - Money In the Bank 2011*

*Fuck starzs ratingsz~!*

As I've had said before, I'm all for overlooking flaws in a match if it has enough good shit to make me forget about the flaws...Davey vs Eddie didn't have enough, Goto vs Tana didn't have enough, Cena vs Punk DID HAVE ENOUGH. Fucking amazing atmosphere and a great match overall with the perfect ending. If you can't enjoy this because you are searching for flaws or because 1 or 2 details "ruined" the match for you...well, I feel sorry for you


----------



## sXsCanadianFansXs

Sure, there was a tad of sloppiness but John Cena and CM Punk worked incredibly hard for 33 minutes!

The crowd elevated it, the booking was phenomenal and the right guy went over. I will take Punk/Cena over Punk/Joe any day. I NEVER thought I'd say that.

*****.


----------



## The REAL MP

Don't do stars, but Punk/Cena and Smackdown MITB both, and from this vantage point it's actually a toss-up over which I marked harder for.


----------



## SuperDuperDragon

Danielson made me feel like my kid just won a perfect attendance award. Punk made me feel like my kid just won a WWE championship! Perfect attendance is still pretty fucking awesome though.


----------



## Ali Dia

Cena v Punk ****1/2 best WWE match since at least 08. Way better than Taker/michaels 1 and a tad better than 2. My MOTY so far but I havent seen Eddie/Davey waititng for DVD


----------



## abv

What the hell are you talking about? How can a match with so many sloppy moments by both man be a ***** star match? The technique at the beginning was mediocre, and there were many sloppy moves, no way a ***** star match. It was good, very good strong **** - ****1/4 but nothing more than that!


----------



## LariatSavage

Cena/Punk was one of those matches that shows why a bigger crowd makes for more entertaining wrestling... Such a great time. It was so good I didn't even hear the crappy commentary.


----------



## DTB1986

Chicharito™ said:


> ***** for Punk vs. Cena
> 
> I don't care. If a match can make me feel like a 5 year old again, then it fucking deserves 5 stars. Amazing.





abv said:


> What the hell are you talking about? How can a match with so many sloppy moments by both man be a ***** star match? The technique at the beginning was mediocre, and there were many sloppy moves, no way a ***** star match. It was good, very good strong **** - ****1/4 but nothing more than that!


These are going to be the two arguments for the rest of the year. From a technical stand point this can't be ***** but from a storytelling and make you mark out like a little bitch stand point its every bit *****. 

I originally had it at **** 1/2 but ill bump it up a quarter because it totally made me feel like a kid again. 

Every possible way the WWE could have ruined this match they teased but didn't do. They had me hook line and sinker. AWESOME


----------



## peep4life

Just finished watching the show, unfortunately my cable box reset and stopped for twenty minutes, so I didn't get to watch the main event in one sitting. Either way it gets ****3/4/*****, have to watch it again to take it all in. Just an amazing match to cap an amazing show.


----------



## lewieG

For Punk vs Cena, I'm not listening to anyone's argument as to why it's not a 5 star match. It was the most I've enjoyed a match in ages, it might even be my favourite match ever. So ***** for Punk vs Cena. 

All the other main matches were great, even Henry vs Show was alright. Some rough star ratings for the sake of it:
Christian vs Orton - ***3/4
SD MITB - ****
Raw MITB - ****1/4


----------



## septurum

Punk vs Cena- **** 1/2


----------



## That Guy

Cena / Punk should be added to the list. Orton and Christian got close but should have been given another five or so minutes of near falls and close moments before ending the way it did.


----------



## topper1

Ill go ***** They were sloppy at parts but regaurdless that is what prowrestling is all about.


----------



## seabs

*CM Punk vs John Cena - WWE Championship - Money In The Bank 2011*
_Punk/Cena was great. No doubt about that. I'm really glad it got loads of time too and it felt fresh for a WWE title match to go over 30 minutes. There was some awkward stuff in there that I think did stop the match being even better as in it stopped it being a classic and ended up being just a fucking great match. Punk's suicide dive looked amazing, one of the best I've seen that didn't look really dangerous. The suplex to the floor looked awesome. I despise when Indy guys do that spot and it turns into a double suplex and I've always wanted them to just take a flat suplex bump. First time I think I've ever seen someone do that not in a tacky hardcore environment. Cabana at ringside was glorious. Ace Steel was there too. There was an awesome moment early on when a fan on the other side had one of them jewish "We love Colt" shirts on and you could see him getting Cabana's attention and then being noticed. Shame the hard cam was facing the other side. It did however pick up that insane Cena lookalike. Atmosphere during the entrances was immense. Cena had some great points selling the near falls and really worked the whole do or die angle to a tee. Having a long match kinda hurt it at points but again as in stopped it being a 10/10 to just a 9/10. Liked Vince and Laurinatus coming out and teasing a screwjob finish. Cena stopping them and flooring Laurinatus was awesome and like Mike I liked how it tied into the finish and kinda cost Cena. Only just this second realised that Cena is now supposedly fired. Can't recall the announcers ever bringing that up actually. The Vince run in could have done with coming earlier though so they could build up an epic finishing stretch. Finish felt a little teeny bit anti climatic after that spot. Not sure right now but I dont think I'm a fan of the post match. Del Rio looked like a geek and Punk actually leaving with the belt opens up a whole ton of potential booking wormholes that might ruin where the angle goes. Supposedly Punk's left, there's no WWE title anymore and Cena's fired. Not sure if anyone is buying most of that. Vince calling Del Rio out on the headset was a cool touch so that Punk didn't know what was happening. Wouldn't call it MOTY but certainly WWE MOTY so far. Incredible atmosphere and a match that felt like a main event._

*****1/4+*


----------



## kwjr86

*WWE Money in the Bank 07.17.11*

*Smackdown Money In the Bank Ladder Match: ****½*
Incredibly story told here. Whether it was Sin Cara getting his glory in the beginning to Sheamus being the beast of the match; and Bryan just never giving up and coming back again and again. Big spots that made complete sense and a finish that was perfect. Loved the Sin Cara powerbomb and Sheamus taking a big fall onto the ladder; guy is a beast for taking that bump. Just a brilliant story and an awesome match that may be the best ladder match in a very long time.

*Raw Money in the Bank Ladder Match: *****
This one wasn’t story driven as much as the SD ladder match was; but it was just a hell of a car wreck; from the start with everyone having ladders; to everyone climbing at once; high spots galore; big dive spots and awesome visual with Bourne’s SSP off the ladder on to everyone; and then the finish; the finish really made me love this match; not only did they have Miz come back out from injury they also had Del Rio unmask Rey to get the win; loved how it played out; and it really made the match. While Del Rio was fully expected to win; they made it unpredictable and unexpected with the last minute or two.

*Christian vs. Orton: *****
With a stipulation like this there’s a right way to do it and this was it. From the start with the chair toss; and then Christian spitting directly in Orton’s face and making him get himself dq’d; not to mention the 10 minutes they packed in between; big false finishes that had everyone biting just 8 minutes into the match; Orton’s inverted gut wrench RKO type maneuver; just a hell of a fast paced; story driven match.

*CM Punk vs. John Cena: ******
This is why I watch wrestling. For moments and matches like this. There were many one or two spots that looked a little off, but that can’t hold this match from being a ***** match. These guys had everyone in the palm of their hand from the start. Cena trying to show Punk he can wrestle with him; the false finishes had me on the edge of my seat; the submission reversals were awesome; the screw job tease was executed so well and the finish was perfect. When the crowd is as rabid and enticed by the classic these guys put on it makes it even better. 34 minutes of excellence; and a perfect match.​


----------



## Pop Tatari

kwjr86 said:


> *WWE Money in the Bank 07.17.11*
> 
> *Smackdown Money In the Bank Ladder Match: ****½*
> Incredibly story told here. Whether it was Sin Cara getting his glory in the beginning to Sheamus being the beast of the match; and Bryan just never giving up and coming back again and again. Big spots that made complete sense and a finish that was perfect. Loved the Sin Cara powerbomb and Sheamus taking a big fall onto the ladder; guy is a beast for taking that bump. Just a brilliant story and an awesome match that may be the best ladder match in a very long time.
> 
> *Raw Money in the Bank Ladder Match: *****
> This one wasn’t story driven as much as the SD ladder match was; but it was just a hell of a car wreck; from the start with everyone having ladders; to everyone climbing at once; high spots galore; big dive spots and awesome visual with Bourne’s SSP off the ladder on to everyone; and then the finish; the finish really made me love this match; not only did they have Miz come back out from injury they also had Del Rio unmask Rey to get the win; loved how it played out; and it really made the match. While Del Rio was fully expected to win; they made it unpredictable and unexpected with the last minute or two.
> 
> *Christian vs. Orton: *****
> With a stipulation like this there’s a right way to do it and this was it. From the start with the chair toss; and then Christian spitting directly in Orton’s face and making him get himself dq’d; not to mention the 10 minutes they packed in between; big false finishes that had everyone biting just 8 minutes into the match; Orton’s inverted gut wrench RKO type maneuver; just a hell of a fast paced; story driven match.
> 
> *CM Punk vs. John Cena: ******
> This is why I watch wrestling. For moments and matches like this. There were many one or two spots that looked a little off, but that can’t hold this match from being a ***** match. These guys had everyone in the palm of their hand from the start. Cena trying to show Punk he can wrestle with him; the false finishes had me on the edge of my seat; the submission reversals were awesome; the screw job tease was executed so well and the finish was perfect. When the crowd is as rabid and enticed by the classic these guys put on it makes it even better. 34 minutes of excellence; and a perfect match.​


great review man


----------



## RizoRiz

abv said:


> What the hell are you talking about? How can a match with so many sloppy moments by both man be a ***** star match? The technique at the beginning was mediocre, and there were many sloppy moves, no way a ***** star match. It was good, very good strong **** - ****1/4 but nothing more than that!


Misawa/Kawada's rivalry had alot of sloppiness aswell, dosen't mean they're not some of the greatest matches ever. 

Saying that, it gets ****1/2 from me


----------



## KingCrash

Yeah it did get a little sloppy at times but the emotion and energy in that match outweighs that, not going to blame anyone for losing their minds about rating it. Loved the post-match even though everyone knows Cena's not going to get fired (Vince even alluded to it earlier by saying that if Punk left then Cena's life would be a living hell). Easily the best WWE/TNA ppv of the year with only the divas match being absolutely bad. 

Smackdown MITB Ladder Match - ****1/4
Raw MITB Ladder Match - ****
Randy Orton vs. Christian - ***3/4
CM Punk vs. John Cena - ****1/2 - ****3/4


----------



## adri17

kwjr86 said:


> *WWE Money in the Bank 07.17.11*
> 
> *Smackdown Money In the Bank Ladder Match: ****½*
> Incredibly story told here. Whether it was Sin Cara getting his glory in the beginning to Sheamus being the beast of the match; and Bryan just never giving up and coming back again and again. Big spots that made complete sense and a finish that was perfect. Loved the Sin Cara powerbomb and Sheamus taking a big fall onto the ladder; guy is a beast for taking that bump. Just a brilliant story and an awesome match that may be the best ladder match in a very long time.
> 
> *Raw Money in the Bank Ladder Match: *****
> This one wasn’t story driven as much as the SD ladder match was; but it was just a hell of a car wreck; from the start with everyone having ladders; to everyone climbing at once; high spots galore; big dive spots and awesome visual with Bourne’s SSP off the ladder on to everyone; and then the finish; the finish really made me love this match; not only did they have Miz come back out from injury they also had Del Rio unmask Rey to get the win; loved how it played out; and it really made the match. While Del Rio was fully expected to win; they made it unpredictable and unexpected with the last minute or two.
> 
> *Christian vs. Orton: *****
> With a stipulation like this there’s a right way to do it and this was it. From the start with the chair toss; and then Christian spitting directly in Orton’s face and making him get himself dq’d; not to mention the 10 minutes they packed in between; big false finishes that had everyone biting just 8 minutes into the match; Orton’s inverted gut wrench RKO type maneuver; just a hell of a fast paced; story driven match.
> 
> *CM Punk vs. John Cena: ******
> This is why I watch wrestling. For moments and matches like this. There were many one or two spots that looked a little off, but that can’t hold this match from being a ***** match. These guys had everyone in the palm of their hand from the start. Cena trying to show Punk he can wrestle with him; the false finishes had me on the edge of my seat; the submission reversals were awesome; the screw job tease was executed so well and the finish was perfect. When the crowd is as rabid and enticed by the classic these guys put on it makes it even better. 34 minutes of excellence; and a perfect match.​


Pretty much this. Great review. Anyone who's not giving at least ****1/2 to Cena vs Punk is blinding himself. This match had EVERYONE excited before, during and dare I say, now, after the match still excited. This is what a big match should be about.

Now let's see if Cena/Rock can top this...


----------



## jawbreaker

I don't know how to rate Cena/Punk. It was fantastic drama, an amazing moment, and some decent action, better than the average WWE match. But at the same time, it was full of WWE bullshit, and adhered to the basic WWE structure of gradually increasing spots before the match ends. Nothing that happened in the first thirty minutes made any major difference in the end, the announcers sold Cena's knee more than he did, and there wasn't any in-match story to speak of.

That said, I loved the match, and it was far better than anything I've seen from WWE in a long, long time. But people are overrating it like crazy. It's not five stars.

EDIT: "Anyone who's not giving at least ****1/2 to Cena vs Punk is blinding himself. This match had EVERYONE excited before, during and dare I say, now, after the match still excited. This is what a big match should be about."

This isn't true at all. Hogan/Andre had everyone excited before, during, and after, and that doesn't mean it wasn't a pile of shit. Obvious example, I know, but still very applicable.

There are many things that go into making a great match, and no matter how well done, you can't truly have a great match that excels in just one facet.


----------



## seabs

jawbreaker said:


> I don't know how to rate Cena/Punk. It was fantastic drama, an amazing moment, and some decent action, better than the average WWE match. But at the same time, it was full of WWE bullshit, and adhered to the basic WWE structure of gradually increasing spots before the match ends. Nothing that happened in the first thirty minutes made any major difference in the end, the announcers sold Cena's knee more than he did, and there wasn't any in-match story to speak of.
> 
> That said, I loved the match, and it was far better than anything I've seen from WWE in a long, long time. But people are overrating it like crazy. It's not five stars.


*Like.*



jawbreaker said:


> the announcers sold Cena's knee more than he did


*I was starting to wonder if I was the only one who missed Cena supposedly selling the leg altogether. 

It's difficult to really mention criticisms of the match without sounding like I didn't like the match. The atmosphere and build definitely far superseded the match itself and if the match was smoother and maybe had a more epic finishing stretch then I really wouldn't disagree with any 5* ratings for it. It'll be really interesting to see people's thoughts on the match a couple of years down the line when the excitement of it being current dies off and people start to view it more of a stand alone match than the climax to an amazing angle.*


----------



## bigbuxxx

Am I the only one who think Cena thought he hurt his leg legitimately and the announcers jumped on that and after a few moments of collecting himself he just continued as normal?


----------



## jawbreaker

Yeah, I think part of me rating it lower than others is that I just kind of barely kept tabs on what was going on in WWE during the angle, so I didn't get swallowed up in it like others.

Also agree that people might not like it in a few years. Everyone who watched ROH during the Summer of Punk talks about how great it was, but looking back, the matches weren't really that good. Aries/Punk was easily the best of them, in part because the match never felt like it was taking a back seat to the result until it was over. I can't say the same about Punk/Cena.


----------



## bigbuxxx

jawbreaker said:


> it was full of WWE bullshit, and adhered to the basic WWE structure of gradually increasing spots before the match ends.


isn't this how almost all matches in all promotions are?

i give it ***** not because it was a ***** match but because you can get over the mistakes here and there because of the hype for the match, the atmosphere, and the execution of the story and years down the road we'll still see this as a match that changed the wwe (imo)

as for the hogan/andre comparison i'd more compare it to joe/kobashi which is no ***** match but people rate it that because of the atmosphere and epicness of it.


----------



## seabs

bigbuxxx said:


> Am I the only one who think Cena thought he hurt his leg legitimately and the announcers jumped on that and after a few moments of collecting himself he just continued as normal?


*Nope.*


----------



## peachchaos

Smackdown MITB ***1/2
Cena vs. Punk ****1/4-****1/2


----------



## jawbreaker

bigbuxxx said:


> isn't this how almost all matches in all promotions are?


Kind of, but I meant to imply that the spots in most big WWE matches are often disconnected from each other in a manner that hurts the realism significantly, and Cena/Punk was no exception.



bigbuxxx said:


> i give it ***** not because it was a ***** match but because you can get over the mistakes here and there because of the hype for the match, the atmosphere, and the execution of the story and years down the road we'll still see this as a match that changed the wwe (imo)


What they did in the ring wasn't *****-worthy. I'm not talking about little mistakes, I'm talking about big flaws that I can't look past.

And if you're admitting that it's not a five star match, then you shouldn't be rating it five stars. Five star angle? Sure. But the match itself wasn't.



bigbuxxx said:


> as for the hogan/andre comparison i'd more compare it to joe/kobashi which is no ***** match but people rate it that because of the atmosphere and epicness of it.


Joe/Kobashi was a whole lot better than Cena/Punk, wrestling wise. There was a much better story, much better action, and much better character dynamics. The comparison is valid, perhaps more so than Hogan/Andre (which was to prove a point more than anything), but falls apart on the specifics.


----------



## bigbuxxx

jawbreaker said:


> Joe/Kobashi was a whole lot better than Cena/Punk, wrestling wise.


i disagree with this but that's going way o/t i think. i would have easily given that match maybe *** while giving punk/cena better w/o the hype/crowd. i didn't see that match until earlier this year because that's when i got into roh so idk all the story/hype with it.



> And if you're admitting that it's not a five star match, then you shouldn't be rating it five stars. Five star angle? Sure. But the match itself wasn't.


the crowd made the match. i didn't see any major flaws and if there were i'm just naive and didn't see any and i'm very happy i didn't.


----------



## antoniomare007

bigbuxxx said:


> Am I the only one who think Cena thought he hurt his leg legitimately and the announcers jumped on that and after a few moments of collecting himself he just continued as normal?


That's what I thought. Can't blame the announce team on that one though, if they didn't know the knee wasn't a part of the story, It was logical for them to talk about it.


----------



## flag sabbath

I guess what it boils down to is that parts of the match were really poorly executed, but on this particular night it didn't matter one bit - Punk & Cena could do no wrong.


----------



## peachchaos

For me, it's not really that they did anything "wrong"...the match was simply lacking some of the elements of a classic 5* match.


----------



## Nervosa

First off, I have yet to see the match. Keep that in mind with the following:



lewieG said:


> For Punk vs Cena, I'm not listening to anyone's argument as to why it's not a 5 star match. It was the most I've enjoyed a match in ages, it might even be my favourite match ever. So ***** for Punk vs Cena.


This may be the single most ignorant thing I've read on this thread. "It's five stars....if you bring up legitimate criticism, I'm ignoring you." Completely disregards the very purpose of this thread, and message boards in general. If you enjoy anything about critiquing match quality at all, this is almost offensive. 



jawbreaker said:


> Also agree that people might not like it in a few years. Everyone who watched ROH during the Summer of Punk talks about how great it was, but looking back, the matches weren't really that good. Aries/Punk was easily the best of them, in part because the match never felt like it was taking a back seat to the result until it was over. I can't say the same about Punk/Cena.


I think you are forgetting Roderick vs. Punk at Escape from New York.......epic, and unjustly forgotten. 



bigbuxxx said:


> isn't this how almost all matches in all promotions are?
> 
> i give it ***** not because it was a ***** match but because you can get over the mistakes here and there because of the hype for the match, the atmosphere, and the execution of the story and years down the road we'll still see this as a match that changed the wwe (imo)


I'm glad you put 'imo' here, because I think this is a big line to draw.

Here is my opinion, having not seen the match, but KNOWING there are botches, and this applies to Davey/Tyler from last year, and the first Taker/Michaels match at wrestlemania 25:

If you are giving it 5 stars, you are willingly making yourself ignorant to the unquestionable flaws. You can use excuses like 'the atmosphere,' or 'the build,' or 'the moment,' but when you give it five stars, you are essentially saying that something that HAS FLAWS is perfect. Now, its all opinion, and you have your right to it, but I think there is something very wrong with saying something that has flaws is perfect. 

Flaws mean that it technically 'could have been better,' and if it could have been better, how is it perfect?


----------



## T-C

Haven't posted in this forum for years, but do people get how good Cena is yet?


----------



## Generation-Now

I wouldn't say there are really any botches though. As far as I remember, at least, there wasn't. There were a few spots that were kind of sloppy, but I wouldn't out right say they took away from the match either. There was a lot of things they hit with better execution then I've seen in any other match, as well (Punk's suicide dive, for example).


----------



## DTB1986

Yeah i can't give it the full five but a lot of people who are rating this so highly is because for the first time in what seems like forever, the WWE put together a match that was emotional, unpredictable, paced well and meaningful. A lot of us continue watching this company out of habit and are generally let down, that match made remember why i love wrestling so much.

For me i have different expectations from each company, a ***** match in the WWE is different than a ***** match in ROH. 

For the first time this year i was on the edge of me seat, cheering, screaming, getting nervous... etc. The pay off was great and for all the very minor flaws i have to give it **** 3/4.

Nervosa will give it **** maybe less


----------



## seabs

T-C said:


> Haven't posted in this forum for years, but do people get how good Cena is yet?


*No. It still seems to go over most peoples heads.*


----------



## T-C

Hugely disappointing because once it comes down to the big matches he hardly ever disappoints.


----------



## Fighter Daron

It was not like a perfect match. But I saw a comment back that made me think about. If a match can make you feel like you have five years, guy, this is, at least, five stars. And that's it. I was so caught by the match that I just couldn't see any mistake. 

I'm glad I still going childish with this, man, because when I'm not, I swear I'll stop seeing this shit.


----------



## Sephiroth

Winning said it best



Winning said:


> This match had the whole package. People on the forums and in general always want to talk about "we want wrestling". What is wrestling? It wasn't Wrestlemania this year. It wasn't Best in the World this year. It wasn't Destination X this year. Wrestling is a complete package that the in ring action plays as a backbone. The atmosphere, the storytelling, the action, the emotion, the build up, the hype, the promos, the wrestlers themselves are all combined to display what wrestling truely is. Tonight, whether you love them or hate them, WWE gave you wrestling. From top to bottom. Every match had a story and played well to the best of its abilities. This is a pay per view event we will look back 5, 10, 20, 50 years from now and that's why I gave it a 10/10. It defined a moment where wrestling has a new fire on their hands and WWE can spread it to the wrestling community and promotions. How WWE handles it will be a whole different story.


----------



## seabs

*He's been pretty bad at times this year though and he didn't really have any stand out matches last year either but yeah he's a terrific main event worker for sure and he works so well with he can do in the ring rather than what he can't do. Bang on about him being consistent in real main event matches that matter.*


----------



## Fighter Daron

T-C said:


> Hugely disappointing because once it comes down to the big matches he hardly ever disappoints.


I wasn't disappointed when he fought Batista, Edge, Umaga, Michaels or Triple H. Cena is the best main event worker since Attitude, no doubt about it.


----------



## Nervosa

I'll agree with what everyone has been saying about Cena: guy is solid, if not spectacular, at what he does. 

I wanted to say he was shit ,but ever since that damn Umaga match, shortly followed the London Classic against Michaels, I'll never be able to say he can't wrestle, even when he goes a whole year without giving us anything to be excited about. He has it, in terms on in-ring ability, for sure.



Fighter Daron said:


> I wasn't disappointed when he fought Batista, Edge, Umaga, Michaels or Triple H. Cena is the best main event worker since Attitude, no doubt about it.


I agree that I think he is a great main event worker, but I put him at second behind Michaels. I just think Michaels had that aura that if he was in the main event, it was going to be amazing. That is far from true with Cena, especially with the last year he had.

O, while I was never technically disappointed when he fought Trips and Batista, I still found those matches to be utter shit.


----------



## T-C

Fighter Daron said:


> I wasn't disappointed when he fought Batista, Edge, Umaga, Michaels or Triple H. Cena is the best main event worker since Attitude, no doubt about it.


Very true, his work with Umaga is especially overlooked. Glad to hear he is getting the credit he deserves for his work when it comes to the really big matches.


----------



## Fighter Daron

Nervosa said:


> I wanted to say he was shit ,but ever since that damn Umaga match, shortly followed the London Classic against Michaels, I'll never be able to say he can't wrestle, even when he goes a whole year without giving us anything to be excited about. He has it, in terms on in-ring ability, for sure.


Well, if you put him against JBL, Khali, Lashley, Orton, Big Show, The Miz and you think they'll make a classic, you are crazy. He had to faced the badest talent in the company for years. 

With the only ones, he could do a bigger match was with Jericho and Sheamus, but in both cases, I think it was not his fault.


----------



## The Streak

Fucking get over it, if someone wants to give it 5 stars because they enjoyed wrestling so be it. You're basically criticising someone for liking wrestling. Your 5 star is different to other peoples, respect that.


----------



## seabs

*I usually don't bother to comment on the whole what matches should and shouldn't be ***** because it's kinda tedious but it is kinda contradictory to say the match had it's flaws and then give it *****. I think people are rating it as a whole package rather than the match on it's own (which is fine btw as ratings are subjective anyway). A 5* match should technically be perfect and certainly shouldn't have any botches but I'm really not going to argue with anyone giving it ***** (although I do disagree with them lol) purely because of the viewer involvement that the whole angle has managed to captivate.*


----------



## Sephiroth

You put Orton and Cena in the same ring together and I'll be glued to my TV everytime. I fucking love their matches


----------



## antoniomare007

Orton bores me to death 90% of the time *shrugs*

I stopped caring about Cena haters a long ass time ago, if by 08' people STILL didn't get that he was an awesome main event performer then fuck it, it's their loss not being able to enjoy his matches.


----------



## Sephiroth

Some of you might not remember PulseGlazer (Aaron Glazer), but he's got a review up for MITB. Thought I'd share.

http://wrestling.insidepulse.com/20...k-and-thoughts-heading-into-monday-night-raw/


----------



## Nervosa

The crowd was perfect…and I do mean perfect, in that, they could not have possibly been any better. That’s how I define perfect. Remember that later.

As I was saying…the crowd was perfect. The build was perfect; everything from the first speech, the suspension, the re-instatement, the contract demands, and the Red Sox speech…everything made this match something special. The opening video was innovative and dramatic. To say that Punk’s entrance was anything less than bone chilling doesn’t do it justice. Cena’s entrance, in its own right, was perfect to the last detail. The callbacks to One Night Stand were absolutely necessary, and added a whole new level. The drama and reality of the moment was everything we as WWE fans have been waiting for almost 10 years; maybe longer. We very well may never see something so breathtaking replicated in our lifetime. If you take all of those things, roll them together, and judge this match on just those things alone, than you have no choice but to say this match is perfect. It is Five stars, no less.

But that of course, is for those who willingly choose ignorance. That is for those who choose to give a match 5 stars based on atmosphere, build-up, and emotion they themselves brought in. That is for people who had basically decided before the match even started, that as long as this match was anything but a flop, and if Punk somehow won, that it was going to be five stars. 

Back in reality, some of us choose to judge a match based on what happens between the bells. And between the bells, there were flaws. And something that is five stars cannot be flawed. 

Punk fell before the bulldog finished. Botch. Punk shorted his splash. Botch. Punk lands on his ass on the AA counter. Botch. Cena jumped way too far for his leg drop, and when Punk countered it into the powerbomb, it crumpled badly. Botch. Punk’s first GTS hit Cena in the ribs. Botch. The first three would be noticeably absent if they weren’t in the next Botchamania. I’ve heard others see as many as least two additional botches.

Botches are flaws. Flaws mean the match could have been better, and five stars implies that a match COULD NOT be any better. In my opinion, if you call this match five stars, you are willingly choosing to be ignorant of clear flaws. 

Don’t get me wrong, the match did a lot right. The opening chain wrestling was AMAZING. I cannot believe people thought this was boring. Cena absolutely NEEDED those first 5 minutes to prove that he can, indeed, wrestle, and tell an athletic story. Those first five minutes were just awesome. The best moment in the whole match was Cena’s AMAZING catch of Punk’s knee on the GTS attempt that he turned into the STF. The story itself was very good: Cena surprised everyone by chain wrestling with Punk, but Punk came out of the section the better until Cena hits the suplex to the outside. Cena slightly worked over the ribs of Punk, but it was when he started getting into his trademarks that Punk began getting some major counters, and changing the tide to lead into the excellent finishing stretch. Executed cleanly, the match may very well be five stars. 

But it wasn’t. So it isn’t.

In the end, I end up at ****, as someone previously predicted I would. I could go higher, but that is letting my emotion get in the way of clear facts. I think my bias truly makes me want to go as high as ****1/4, and I love Seabs’ review that gave it that very rating. You see, I love Punk, and have for a very long time. I wanted very badly for this to be the match of the year. I wanted everyone who said he couldn’t be ‘the man,’ in the company to see just how much he could deliver when it mattered. But being a critic means eliminating bias, and when I do that, I’m left with a match that could have been great, but wasn’t executed properly. 




Seabs said:


> *I usually don't bother to comment on the whole what matches should and shouldn't be ***** because it's kinda tedious but it is kinda contradictory to say the match had it's flaws and then give it *****. I think people are rating it as a whole package rather than the match on it's own (which is fine btw as ratings are subjective anyway). A 5* match should technically be perfect and certainly shouldn't have any botches but I'm really not going to argue with anyone giving it ***** (although I do disagree with them lol) purely because of the viewer involvement that the whole angle has managed to captivate.*


This. Times a billion. I've been basically saying it for a while: hopefully now people will listen.


----------



## RizoRiz

Pretty much none of the long string of AJPW 5 star matches are technically perfect. They were that damn good because of atmosphere, emotion and because they felt more real than anything else. I got a similar feeling last night, even if it was over-dramatic at times, I still didn't give it 5 stars, but I think we're being harsh.


----------



## Kun10

Nervosa said:


> This. Times a billion. I've been basically saying it for a while: hopefully now people will listen.


Why does it bother you so much? I find the whole star-ratings thing pretty stupid anyway but you're basically telling people how they should enjoy a match. If somebody can ignore the botches and see a match for what it is then more power to them. Not everyone has to be as anal as you.


----------



## Nervosa

Kun10 said:


> Why does it bother you so much? I find the whole star-ratings thing pretty stupid anyway but you're basically telling people how they should enjoy a match. If somebody can ignore the botches and see a match for what it is then more power to them. Not everyone has to be as anal as you.


Do yourself a favor and go read Seabs' post again. It bothers me because, as he said; it is contradictory.

And people who ignore botches are not seeing a match for what it is. Ignoring botches means they're seeing what they want to see instead of what is there.


----------



## Kun10

Nervosa said:


> Do yourself a favor and go read Seabs' post again. It bothers me because, as he said; it is contradictory.


If you nitpick enough you'll find flaws in everything, especially a wrestling match. If somebody wants to look by these and enjoy the match for the storyline or the atmosphere then that's their decision.

I seriously can't think of a wrestling match I'd say has no flaws whatsoever.


----------



## Nervosa

Kun10 said:


> If you nitpick enough you'll find flaws in everything, especially a wrestling match. If somebody wants to look by these and enjoy the match for the storyline or the atmosphere then that's their decision.
> 
> I seriously can't think of a wrestling match I'd say has no flaws whatsoever.


I already had this discussion earlier in the thread. If you look far enough, you can find my five stars from the past 10 years. For me, I can indeed find matches where I don't find flaws. When people bring up flaws, I feel like I can argue against them properly.

It is because of the existence of REAL five star matches and I argue against botched matches getting that rating. 

Sure, if they want to enjoy it, its their decision. I'm not arguing against a matches 'enjoyability.' I'm arguing against a match's perfection.


----------



## Kid Kamikaze10

Kun10 said:


> If you nitpick enough you'll find flaws in everything, especially a wrestling match. If somebody wants to look by these and enjoy the match for the storyline or the atmosphere then that's their decision.
> 
> I seriously can't think of a wrestling match I'd say has no flaws whatsoever.


But he did enjoy the match, he said that.


Pointing out flaws doesn't automatically mean "the match sucks". It just means it's not a five star match. Entertainment and quality are two different factors when analyzing matches (as well as art in general).



I disagree with Nervosa on one thing though. I don't think all botches are just flaws in a match. Some mistakes and screw ups can add to a match.

The easiest example I can think of is Great Sasuke vs Liger (the infamous one), when Great Sasuke botched a Springboard move badly. It was a botch and a half, but it added to the match's story of Liger's arrogance and Great Sasuke's Indy Rookie Status.

Not all botches are equal. (though none of this applies to the Punk/Cena match. Just in general)


----------



## Nervosa

Kid Kamikaze10 said:


> I disagree with Nervosa on one thing though. I don't think all botches are just flaws in a match. Some mistakes and screw ups can add to a match.
> 
> The easiest example I can think of is Great Sasuke vs Liger (the infamous one), when Great Sasuke botched a Springboard move badly. It was a botch and a half, but it added to the match's story of Liger's arrogance and Great Sasuke's Indy Rookie Status.
> 
> Not all botches are equal. (though none of this applies to the Punk/Cena match. Just in general)


I'm not really saying that all mistakes are flaws, but I think any botch whatsoever disqualifies it from being considered perfect. Botches can (rarely) make a match better, but they can't save it from being imperfect. As much as that botch added to Liger/Sasuke, it made it impossible to be five stars. (although it is very good) That's my opinion, at least.


----------



## Kun10

Nervosa said:


> I already had this discussion earlier in the thread. If you look far enough, you can find my five stars from the past 10 years. For me, I can indeed find matches where I don't find flaws. When people bring up flaws, I feel like I can argue against them properly.
> 
> It is because of the existence of REAL five star matches and I argue against botched matches getting that rating.
> 
> Sure, if they want to enjoy it, its their decision. I'm not arguing against a matches 'enjoyability.' I'm arguing against a match's perfection.


I'd say that's more down to the whole star-ratings system than the people who are actually rating the matches. As I've said I personally find the whole system flawed. 

It's not the worst match I've seen being called five-star either. I'm sure someone rated a Raw match from this year (maybe even Cena-Miz) five stars on this forum.


Edit: I wasn't criticizing Nervosa's review. I don't think the match was perfect either... and it's definitely being overrated by some over in the WWE section. Just the comment about people rating matches five-stars when they have botches.


----------



## Kid Kamikaze10

Nervosa said:


> I'm not really saying that all mistakes are flaws, but I think any botch whatsoever disqualifies it from being considered perfect. Botches can (rarely) make a match better, but they can't save it from being imperfect. As much as that botch added to Liger/Sasuke, it made it impossible to be five stars. (although it is very good) That's my opinion, at least.


Fair enough.


----------



## topper1

Nervosa said:


> I already had this discussion earlier in the thread. If you look far enough, you can find my five stars from the past 10 years. For me, I can indeed find matches where I don't find flaws. When people bring up flaws, I feel like I can argue against them properly.
> 
> It is because of the existence of REAL five star matches and I argue against botched matches getting that rating.
> 
> Sure, if they want to enjoy it, its their decision. I'm not arguing against a matches 'enjoyability.' I'm arguing against a match's perfection.


I can understand the aguement on both sides. For me personally very few matches have had me that emotionally invested and that is enough for me to over look any sloppyness either man might of had. 

This match had so much more meaning and so much more emotion then any flippy Sabre or Devitt match that someone like Seabs like's to hand out the same rating to.


----------



## Bubz

*MITB Punk vs Cena*

I avoided all spoilers and any discussion about this match before watching it just now...This is definitely something special, very special.

Punk is GOD in Chicago, his entrance was overwhelming, the crowd reaction throughout the whole match was amazing, something that hasn't been heard or seen for years.

However, I can't consider this 5 stars. There is no doubt in my mind that I would have if those damn botches didn't happen. I counted 2 very noticeable mistakes and 2 smaller ones, They didn't take me out of the match, but they were there.

Saying that...The story, emotion, crowd, booking and wrestling (apart from the botches) were picture perfect, they couldn't have been improved at all IMO. The reversals and the big spots were amazing, Vince trying to screw Punk and Cena stopping it was amazing, Cena showing he is a damn fine wrestler was amazing, Punk was amazing, the finish was amazing, the post match was brilliant. Everything I thought the WWE was going to do wrong, they did right. Everything I thought was going to happen and piss me off didn't happen. I was so involved in this match, I was on the edge of my seat, I was nervous and I was marking out like a fucking child, I haven't felt like this watching wrestling since I was a kid. Yes, it was helped by the awesome angle, but this was epic.

*****1/2+*


----------



## antoniomare007

Nervosa said:


> I already had this discussion earlier in the thread. If you look far enough, you can find my five stars from the past 10 years. For me, I can indeed find matches where I don't find flaws. *When people bring up flaws, I feel like I can argue against them properly.*


That doesn't mean the match doesn't have flaws, which I think was Kun's point. Every match has flaws and the "high rating" someone can give to a certain match is gonna depend on whether you are able to look past, forget or don't care about them.

I do think people get way to homotional about ratings but whatever.


----------



## Kun10

antoniomare007 said:


> That doesn't mean the match doesn't have flaws, which I think was Kun's point. Every match has flaws and the "high rating" someone can give to a certain match is gonna depend on whether you are able to look past, forget or don't care about them.
> 
> I do think people get way to homotional about ratings but whatever.


Yeah, I could argue that the flaws/botches in Punk-Cena add to the match (I wouldn't), that doesn't make it a fiver-star match.


----------



## Caponex75

DTB1986 said:


> Nervosa will give it **** maybe less


That's funny.


1. John Cena vs. CM Punk for the WWE Championship - *****

2. Eddie Edwards vs. Davey Richards for the ROH World Championship - ****1/2-****3/4. ***** on the emotional post match

3. The Undertaker vs. Triple H for the Streak - ****1/2-****3/4


----------



## Bubz

antoniomare007 said:


> That doesn't mean the match doesn't have flaws, which I think was Kun's point. Every match has flaws and the "high rating" someone can give to a certain match is gonna depend on whether you are able to look past, forget or don't care about them.
> 
> I do think people get way to *homotional* about ratings but whatever.


Off topic, but is that actually a real word? I like it lol.


----------



## Nervosa

Caponex75 said:


> That's funny.
> 
> 
> 1. John Cena vs. CM Punk for the WWE Championship - *****
> 
> 2. Eddie Edwards vs. Davey Richards for the ROH World Championship - ****1/2-****3/4. ***** on the emotional post match
> 
> 3. The Undertaker vs. Triple H for the Streak - ****1/2-****3/4


Yeah, my review even tipped my hat to him calling it.

In the same way, if a match has a great build, a flawed story, and somewhere around two botches, you're pretty much nailed on to give it ****3/4-*****. 

I guess we're both getting predictable.



antoniomare007 said:


> That doesn't mean the match doesn't have flaws, which I think was Kun's point. Every match has flaws and the "high rating" someone can give to a certain match is gonna depend on whether you are able to look past, forget or don't care about them.
> 
> I do think people get way to homotional about ratings but whatever.


I think there are legitimate ways to overlook what some people consider to be flaws. There is a logical way to explain said flaws, as I have done in the past for matches that I have rated 5 stars. In the same way inconclusive logic can't talk me into thinking that Edwards/Richards was anything higher than 4 stars, the same kind of logic falls short when arguing down a great match, as well.


----------



## FITZ

> In the end, I end up at ****, as someone previously predicted I would. I could go higher, but that is letting my emotion get in the way of clear facts. I think my bias truly makes me want to go as high as ****1/4, and I love Seabs’ review that gave it that very rating. You see, I love Punk, and have for a very long time. I wanted very badly for this to be the match of the year. I wanted everyone who said he couldn’t be ‘the man,’ in the company to see just how much he could deliver when it mattered. But being a critic means eliminating bias, and when I do that, I’m left with a match that could have been great, but wasn’t executed properly.


Aren't you supposed to let emotion get in the way? For me when I actually get emotionally involved in a match that's how I know I'm watching a great match. If I watch a match that is technically perfect but I can't get myself to really care about who wins I don't see how that should get 5*s. A wrestling match is a story, and a great one not only needs to tell a story but people need to care about the story. 

I'll give you that it had flaws though. My friend, who is at best a casual fan even said that it was sloppy. I wouldn't give it the full five but I would probably but it in the ****1/2-****3/4 range.


----------



## topper1

Nervosa have you watched the match yet?


----------



## Nervosa

topper1 said:


> Nervosa have you watched the match yet?


Middle of the page here:
http://www.wrestlingforum.com/other-wrestling/532607-2011-motyc-thread-145.html



TaylorFitz said:


> Aren't you supposed to let emotion get in the way? For me when I actually get emotionally involved in a match that's how I know I'm watching a great match. If I watch a match that is technically perfect but I can't get myself to really care about who wins I don't see how that should get 5*s. A wrestling match is a story, and a great one not only needs to tell a story but people need to care about the story.
> 
> I'll give you that it had flaws though. My friend, who is at best a casual fan even said that it was sloppy. I wouldn't give it the full five but I would probably but it in the ****1/2-****3/4 range.


I have seen technically amazing matches featuring Chad Collyer.........with no emotional involvement at all. I have seen Hulk hogan captivate millions with utter garbage in the ring. Both kinds of matches end up being rated low for me.

There is a huge difference in letting emotion add to the quality of the match, and letting emotion force you to ignore errors. The first is acceptable, the second is not...at least for me. I draw a huge line between those two.


----------



## Rickey

T-C said:


> Haven't posted in this forum for years, but do people get how good Cena is yet?


Great baby face, he does get stale at times and I hate when tries too hard to be funny but other than that I LIKE HIM! Really appreciate him nowadays.


----------



## antoniomare007

Nervosa said:


> Yeah, my review even tipped my hat to him calling it.
> 
> I think there are legitimate ways to overlook what some people consider to be flaws. There is a logical way to explain said flaws, as I have done in the past for matches that I have rated 5 stars. In the same way inconclusive logic can't talk me into thinking that Edwards/Richards was anything higher than 4 stars, the same kind of logic falls short when arguing down a great match, as well.





Nervosa said:


> There is a huge difference in letting emotion add to the quality of the match, and letting emotion force you to ignore errors. The first is acceptable, the second is not...at least for me. I draw a huge line between those two.


That's my point. How "perfect" you perceive a match will depend on what flaws you are willing to ignore or don't care about.


----------



## Nervosa

antoniomare007 said:


> That's my point. How "perfect" you perceive a match will depend on what flaws you are willing to ignore or don't care about.


See, you say 'ignore,' I say 'logically reason.' The very same logic that reveals flaws can also be used to explain them. To me, the use of logical reason what makes it NOT simply 'ignoring' a flaw.

Plenty of people just like to ignore the flaws of a match, or give reasons that make no sense. I think true criticism determines which line of reasoning is logical and which isn't, whether it be positive or negative.


----------



## Caponex75

> In the same way, if a match has a great build, a flawed story, and somewhere around two botches, you're pretty much nailed on to give it ****3/4-*****.


Nonsense. I've explained the story concerning HHH/Taker or Eddie/Richards to you and while you thought the story was different(Despite delivering clear facts as to why the hell the match was following any different story), it just wasn't a story you got at all. There is a difference between botching and being sloppy. Botching is pretty much completely f-ing up what was suppose to happen where being sloppy is just not doing the intended idea to perfection. Botching: Richards completely messing up his shooting star and almost killing himself on the ropes. Sloppy: Punk blocking the F-U with front flipping but not to perfection. Punk/Cena was sloppy at points and I don't really mind it. It kinda adds realism if you ask me as it is kinda unbelievable a guy should be able to completely do a flawless counter to the F-U like that in a 30 minute freaking non-step match. I especially don't mind sloppiness/botch if it is covered up perfectly. I think Cena rolling to the outside after CM Punk landed on his leg was brilliant thinking on his feet instead of acting like it never happened and makes his roll to the outside seem desperate. Plenty of other stuff but I don't feel like writing essays especially when it gets repetitive and goes nowhere.

Ultimately emotion, logical counter, and logical reaction will always cover up for a tad bit of sloppiness. Like Richards Kawada kicking Black and selling his back made up for him not getting Black all the way up. In my opinion though. And you can never tell someone how much they enjoy a match. I really don't care for Tanahashi/Goto and think people are overlooking what I feel is the better defenses against Nagata & Kojima. Doesn't mean they are wrong and I'm right but it's just a matter of a opinion. 

Oh and emotion should always count. That is what wrestlers work for. If they don't make you excited, take your belief from you, or capture your imagination then that is failing really. A great match should make you go nuts and get you behind it...if you don't get that feeling when you watch what you think is the best match then you are really missing the point. AJPW always gets me because I don't know any the results and the storytelling is just amazing. Pretty sloppy though sometimes.


----------



## Nervosa

Caponex75 said:


> Nonsense. I've explained the story concerning HHH/Taker or Eddie/Richards to you and while you thought the story was different(Despite delivering clear facts as to why the hell the match was following any different story), it just wasn't a story you got at all. There is a difference between botching and being sloppy. Botching is pretty much completely f-ing up what was suppose to happen where being sloppy is just not doing the intended idea to perfection. Botching: Richards completely messing up his shooting star and almost killing himself on the ropes. Sloppy: Punk blocking the F-U with front flipping but not to perfection. Punk/Cena was sloppy at points and I don't really mind it. It kinda adds realism if you ask me as it is kinda unbelievable a guy should be able to completely do a flawless counter to the F-U like that in a 30 minute freaking non-step match. I especially don't mind sloppiness/botch if it is covered up perfectly. I think Cena rolling to the outside after CM Punk landed on his leg was brilliant thinking on his feet instead of acting like it never happened and makes his roll to the outside seem desperate. Plenty of other stuff but I don't feel like writing essays especially when it gets repetitive and goes nowhere.
> 
> Ultimately emotion, logical counter, and logical reaction will always cover up for a tad bit of sloppiness. Like Richards Kawada kicking Black and selling his back made up for him not getting Black all the way up. In my opinion though. And you can never tell someone how much they enjoy a match. I really don't care for Tanahashi/Goto and think people are overlooking what I feel is the better defenses against Nagata & Kojima. Doesn't mean they are wrong and I'm right but it's just a matter of a opinion.
> 
> Oh and emotion should always count. That is what wrestlers work for. If they don't make you excited, take your belief from you, or capture your imagination then that is failing really. A great match should make you go nuts and get you behind it...if you don't get that feeling when you watch what you think is the best match then you are really missing the point. AJPW always gets me because I don't know any the results and the storytelling is just amazing. Pretty sloppy though sometimes.


No, you haven't "explained the story," at least of Eddie and Davey. I continue to say Davey never had control. My evidence: Eddie was never hit with anything that kept him from going five minutes without getting offense in. Yours is that he didn't get 'successful' offense, but all that shows is you ignoring my evidence. The fact is, you can't define a control session by a lack of 'effective' offense: you define it by not getting any at all...that's what makes it CONTROL.

As for Trips/Taker, yes, you explained the story, but again, there was no workover, which means the story was told poorly. You also made up an arm story that never factored into a single move Taker did.

Again, when you explain Richards unable to pick Tyler up, you act like it was done on purpose. The fact is, it wasn't. If Richards and Tyler could do it over, they would, without the resetting of the spot. When the reality of the match is revealed in the fact that a spot needs to be redone, it makes it obvious that it was done incorrectly the first time. That's a FLAW.

This same logic applies to Cena/Punk. Guarantee you those two would take the chance to do those botched spots over. In my opinion, saying something is sloppy rather than a botch simply due to severity is just making excuses. If they did something that they didn't mean to do....that would have been BETTER had it been hit clean, its a botch. Even if you don't want to call it a botch, it is at least a flaw, which makes it imperfect. 

You thought Cena rolling to the outside was an ad-lib? The move was clearly meant to be hit clean, and Cena was meant to go to the outside, which sets up Punk's desperation to roll him back in. Just look how close the move was INTENTIONALLY hit near the ropes. You have this habit of writing in stories where they don't exist, and now you're giving credit for ad-libbing on something that was clearly planned. 

Again, you misconstrue my comments, this time about emotion. I agree that emotion should count. I just said that. I think emotion should completely factor in. It just should never cause one to ignore clear, unavoidable flaws.


----------



## wheelofsteel

I'm Thorn Cena vs Punk and Richards vs Edwards


----------



## jawbreaker

Nervosa said:


> I'm not really saying that all mistakes are flaws, but I think any botch whatsoever disqualifies it from being considered perfect. Botches can (rarely) make a match better, but they can't save it from being imperfect. As much as that botch added to Liger/Sasuke, it made it impossible to be five stars. (although it is very good) That's my opinion, at least.


I disagree. For me, perfect means a match couldn't have been better. If a match is better for a botch, then the match is better for it.

I think I've settled on **** for Punk/Cena. Without the crowd and emotion and drama, it might have been a full star lower. Without the botches, I think I'd go up a quarter or a half a star. The story just wasn't there between the bells.


----------



## TelkEvolon

I had the Cena Punk match at ****, but with the insane crowd and my buddies and I being big Punk fans it was truely something memorable and as an entire moment, it would have to be up at *****, something I will always be able to look back on.


----------



## Caponex75

Nervosa said:


> No, you haven't "explained the story," at least of Eddie and Davey. I continue to say Davey never had control. My evidence: Eddie was never hit with anything that kept him from going five minutes without getting offense in. Yours is that he didn't get 'successful' offense, but all that shows is you ignoring my evidence. The fact is, you can't define a control session by a lack of 'effective' offense: you define it by not getting any at all...that's what makes it CONTROL.



I've acknowledged several times and basically told you it was like a freaking MMA like control. Have you ever watched that sport? Guy gets rocked and tries to fight back but you can honestly tell who is the main leader because of most of his offense. Watch the match. I've told you everything from the detail and Eddie doesn't truly get any offense that gets puts pressure on Davey like Richards did him. You can say "BUTZ HEH GUT HIS FINISHA ON HIM".....he had what didn't last a sip of Tea while Richards was clearly dominating him.


> As for Trips/Taker, yes, you explained the story, but again, there was no workover, which means the story was told poorly. You also made up an arm story that never factored into a single move Taker did.



No it doesn't.......workover/comeback doesn't = PROFIT. The Work over formula that has been used for decades and guess what.....it's still totally in the match! The comeback wasn't and while I do think it could of helped, it wasn't what they were going for. HHH won the wars of bomb and starts to murder Taker with a chair shots(Workover which established how much better HHH was than Taker). That's in the match and that was the whole point. Maybe with the comeback it would of been a greater match but it really doesn't hurt the match....well unless you hate selling.

And you can clearly see HHH favoring his arm a couple times throughout the contest. It wasn't amazing selling but it got the point that the arm was annoying/hurting him at points. Maybe didn't catch it because you missed it live but HHH did favor it.


> Again, when you explain Richards unable to pick Tyler up, you act like it was done on purpose. The fact is, it wasn't. If Richards and Tyler could do it over, they would, without the resetting of the spot. When the reality of the match is revealed in the fact that a spot needs to be redone, it makes it obvious that it was done incorrectly the first time. That's a FLAW.


Everyone knows it wasn't done on purpose but the fact they covered it, acknowledged it, the fans didn't lose heat, and there was no awkward moment made me not really care for the botch. Sure they would of done it differently if they could but it still doesn't really hurt the match for me or anyone that watches it other than you really. A botch that really hurts a match for me is in Orton vs. Christian at MITB. Orton goes for the Joe powerslam and there is just this awkward spot in the match where both guys just don't do anything besides wait for the other guy. Now that hurt.



> This same logic applies to Cena/Punk. Guarantee you those two would take the chance to do those botched spots over. In my opinion, saying something is sloppy rather than a botch simply due to severity is just making excuses. If they did something that they didn't mean to do....that would have been BETTER had it been hit clean, its a botch. Even if you don't want to call it a botch, it is at least a flaw, which makes it imperfect.



It's sloppy. They didn't hit it to perfection but they didn't fuck it up(Which is botching). It's like Jack Evans. He doesn't botch(Well sometimes) but he is sloppy as crap. It wasn't messed up but could of been done better. It's the in between.



> You thought Cena rolling to the outside was an ad-lib? The move was clearly meant to be hit clean, and Cena was meant to go to the outside, which sets up Punk's desperation to roll him back in. Just look how close the move was INTENTIONALLY hit near the ropes. You have this habit of writing in stories where they don't exist, and now you're giving credit for ad-libbing on something that was clearly planned.


No $#!t. I'm giving credit for Cena selling the leg instead of ignoring the sloppiness/damn near botch that just happened. It makes it look like part of the match and good to the point where the announcers actually thought that was part of the match. That's covering it up greatly and thus making it seem like part of the match.



> Again, you misconstrue my comments, this time about emotion. I agree that emotion should count. I just said that. I think emotion should completely factor in. It just should never cause one to ignore clear, unavoidable flaws.


When I say emotion I mean in the fans. Should of said reaction but as long as there isn't obvious heat killing moment than I(& I think many) have never problem going with the flow. Richards/Castagnoli is a match that I thought kinda suffered from the top rope botch as it was pretty awkward and wasn't covered up greatly.....especially since the fans were all over them. Now that's a bad botch especially since they had been building the superplex for the whole match.


----------



## lewieG

Nervosa said:


> This may be the single most ignorant thing I've read on this thread. "It's five stars....if you bring up legitimate criticism, I'm ignoring you." Completely disregards the very purpose of this thread, and message boards in general. If you enjoy anything about critiquing match quality at all, this is almost offensive.


I don't think you understood what I meant. I meant that whilst I would listen to other people's thoughts of the match, they wouldn't make me change my view on the match, or rating (which is only rough for most matches, as I believe I mentioned in my post). For me, a 5 star match is a match which reminds me why I love wrestling, a combination of the wrestling itself, the backstory, the story of the match, the crowd, the result etc. And this match was a 30+ minute rollercoaster with an incredible crowd, amazing storyline, great wrestling and the right result IMO. 

For me, it was a 5 star classic that rates up there with my favourite matches, because as much as I love watching technical classics with no botches and smart limbwork, I find it more important if I get emotionally involved in the match. Austin vs Rock were amazing matches, and they weren't technical classics. Rock vs Hogan is similar. This match had better wrestling than these matches IMO and told just as good a story with just as good if not better crowd reaction. 

I find it ridiculous if some minor slip ups, such as the spot where Punk caught Cena coming off the top rope, hinder your enjoyment of the match. At the time, I noticed that it wasn't done perfectly, but more important to me was the fact that Punk had countered and regained control of the match. A minute later, as they went into the next spot, I'd forgotten about the slight mistake they made and was glued to see what would happen next. 

As far as what I said being 'almost offensive', I'm sorry if I offended you for some reason. I do enjoy critiquing matches, to a point. I enjoy discussing what we thought of the match, what we liked and didn't like, how we compare it to other matches etc. But I don't think it's neccessary to pick apart a match move for move and bring up any slight mistakes made during the match in order to show it wasn't worthy of 5 stars in your opinion, because other people thought it was worthy of those 5 stars. I think it's more important that we just sit back and watch the show rather than looking for flaws. 

But all of this is just how I see it, and I respect your opinion and read your review of the match. I'm not trying to start anything here but I think you might be over-analysing something that we all watch because we enjoy it. I know that when I think of Punk vs Cena in years to come, I'll remember an amazing match and storyline which made me remember I loved wrestling.


----------



## CM Skittle

Nervosa said:


> I could go higher, but that is letting my emotion get in the way of clear facts.


Wow I really feel sorry for you. News flash, wrestling is all about emotion. If you're too busy looking for flaws to realize that then I just feel bad for you, so sad. 

Anyways CM Punk vs. John Cena was definitely 5 stars and one of my favorite matches ever, maybe I'll write a review for it later!


----------



## WenchMan

Punk vs Cena.... Hmmmmmmm

Tough match to rate.

When I saw Edwards vs Richards I was blown away and it was easily 5 stars for me.

Now while Punk/Cena wasnt even close in terms of workrate and highspots I havent been able to stop thinking about it since it ended and merely just reading reviews and comments of the match is giving me GOOSEBUMPS!!

If thats not the TRUE definition of a ***** match then perfection is unattainable.

CM Punk vs John Cena
Money In The Bank 2011

*****

and anyone who says otherwise is either an indy snob or shouldn't be a wrestling fan


----------



## Dimas75

WenchMan said:


> and anyone who says otherwise is either an indy snob or shouldn't be a wrestling fan


With that comment you turned yourself into one of those snobs.


----------



## Ethan619

*Money in the Bank 2011
CM Punk vs. John Cena*

This match will be talked about and opinions are going to vary majorly. If that match is looked at from an atmosphere and storyline view then it's ***** for me. Punk's entrance was amazing. The crowd were perfect for it and my favourite entrance of all time. The camera showing the signs that throwback to One Night Stand '06 were great and just helped create the atmosphere even more. Punk working with the crowd was brilliant, especially during Cena's entrance, clapping him. All of this thrown together with the storyline and not having any idea how the match would go down, hyped one of the most hyped matches in recent time even more.

The match itself is what stops this from being *****. A ***** rating IMO, is based mainly on what happens from bell to bell. The crowd and atmosphere can play a part but aren't the most important aspects in the match itself. This is just my opinion and while others may rate this aspects greater than me, it all comes down to opinion which is what makes star ratings interesting to discuss. I loved the opening few minutes with Cena trying to show that he could wrestle with Punk. It the match kept up this storytelling then my rating would have definitely been higher.

After these opening exchanges I thought the storytelling dropped off and the botches started to come. While none of these botches ruined the match, they did disrupt the flow and prevent it from being a perfect 'match'. While some parts were botched, others were done perfectly such as CM Punk's suicide dive. This was brilliant and one of the best ones I've seen done in a WWE ring.

To see a match go for over 30 minutes in the WWE is a rare thing nowadays but the match benefited from this. The match never seemed to get into a finishing sequence of moves, but was great. When Vince came out, having Cena come and prevent the screw job from taking place was well booked and then leading this into Cena losing the match was good. This made Punk's victory still look relatively clean, but kept the story going with Vince ending up being part of the reason the title would leave the company.

After the match saw Del Rio come out and I was just hoping that the moment wouldn't be ruined. Instead Punk kicks him square in the head and leaves just like he said he would. Brilliant! 

A match that will definitely be watch again and again. To rate this match is hard because of the circumstances surrounding it. The wrestling itself is not near a ***** level yet the crowd and atmosphere is perfect. I can understand why someone would rate this *****, yet I wouldn't agree with them but as I stated above, it's an opinion. The match had me on the edge of my seat and makes you realize why you are a wrestling fan. 


******


----------



## T-C

Do people really watch pro wrestling with a notepad or something and take a quarter of a STAR RATING off every time they see a "botch"? Really? 

It's pro wrestling, it's supposed to be about emotion and how a match or storyline makes you feel, surely it's easier to get swept up in that if you aren't having to keep count of how many quarter stars you've taken off so far?


----------



## JasperSmerth

A few botches isn't going to hurt the match if it doesn't affect the overall mood of a match.

E.G In a speedy high flying spotfest, if a wrestler lands on his head and the ref stops the action briefly to check on them, that damages the match. If a wrestler doesn't get all of a dive of the top rope, but doesn't slow down anything. That isn't damaging the match.

None of Punk or Cena's botches hurt the match.


----------



## seabs

WenchMan said:


> CM Punk vs John Cena
> Money In The Bank 2011
> 
> *****
> 
> and anyone who says otherwise is either an indy snob or shouldn't be a wrestling fan


*Ugh.*

*5 minutes into the match I was thinking shit this could be 5* if they carry on like this. Botches sounds too harsh for what they were, flaws sounds more appropriate because none of them destroyed the flow of the match or caused a serious injury. If people can look past those flaws and not let it affect their enjoyment of the match then that's awesome. Maybe if it was just Punk not landing on his feet off the AA then I wouldn't disagree with anyone giving it 5* but there were loads of little things in the match that weren't spot on and for me they affected the quality of the match, hence why I didn't give it 5*. 

I guess it also depends on what you're basing your rating on too. If it's purely based on enjoyment of the match then fine, nobody can argue with how much one person enjoys a match. If it's based on the quality of the match and all of the aspects that the viewer cant control themselves then it starts to come into question and this is what snowflakes are generally based on.

I really don't wanna harp on about it and sound like it bothers me and come off all anal about people rating an awesome match 5*. I aint gonna lose any sleep knowing that Nervosa rated the same match lower than me or that bob from Chicago thought it was 5* and the best match ever. I'll barely ever question ratings that people give a wrestling match because it's totally subjective and their OPINION. However in the case of Punk/Cena and people rating the quality of the match 5* I really do question it and a lot of it comes down to it being the maximum rating you can give a match. This should mean that the match couldn't have been technically better bar maybe the odd spot which wasn't a 10/10 in terms of execution. Punk/Cena had a good handful of spots which weren't perfect and could have improved on. Had their not been so many flaws then I probably would have gone 5* myself. I can quite easily look over the odd mistake or move that wasn't perfect and still rate a match 5* but in this case there were just too many of them and that was what brought my rating down.

Shit I ended up rambling after all, really just wanted to make a quick point lol.*


----------



## Bubz

As The Dude would say...That's just, like, your opinion, man.

But if we were all like The Dude, this place would be boring as hell.



> Do people really watch pro wrestling with a notepad or something and take a quarter of a STAR RATING off every time they see a "botch"? Really?


If people really see pro wrestling as an art form, which i do but not to the extent some people do, then it is only fair to criticize a match and 'review' it. Just like someone might review a film, you can't go around saying every film you enjoyed a lot is a 5 star classic if it has plot holes or parts of dodgy direction. That is why people review these matches like they do, pro wrestling to many people is an art form, just like film is.



> and anyone who says otherwise is either an indy snob or shouldn't be a wrestling fan


Seriously? That is what you think? Jesus I rated the match at 4 1/2, as I said in my review, everything was amazing apart from the mistakes or botches (whatever you want to call them), therefore the match wasn't perfect. If the match didn't have these flaws then I would have no problem giving it 5. Like Seabs said, there were too many flaws not to notice it after a while.


----------



## Fighter Daron

If you rate Hogan Vs Rock or Austin Vs Rock or Michaels Vs Flair or Sasaki Vs Kawada as five stars, this is five stars. I did rate those matches with the maximun prize, therefore, I also rated this. 

It goes that way, if you think the atmosphere and the crowd is the more important thing, you are right, if you think whatever happens in the ring is the more important thing, you are right. You are always right if you can explain your point.


----------



## jawbreaker

WenchMan said:


> and anyone who says otherwise is either an indy snob or shouldn't be a wrestling fan


If you really think this, then you shouldn't be a wrestling fan.

I'm not arguing that the moment wasn't spectacular. I'm not arguing that the drama wasn't off the charts. I'm not arguing that the atmosphere wasn't unbelievable. I'm arguing that the actual wrestling match wasn't as good as people are claiming it was, and that they're letting their excitement over the angle skew their judgment of what the match actually was.

It was the most memorable four star match I've ever seen. But it was still a four star match.


----------



## Concrete

I believe that CM Punk vs John Cena will be viewed as a classic match in American Wrestling history. Regardless of what one may think of the quality of the match, it was much more than that. I felt like I was seeing the beginning of new era of wrestling. The wrestling was great. The build was amazing. And the result was epic. It may not be the match of the year but this match will be remembered more than any phenomenal indy or Japan match. I honestly think that this will be the Hart vs Austin WM 13 match of this era. That ushered in the attitude era and who knows what we will call this one.


----------



## smitlick

Has Meltzer given snowflakes to it yet?


----------



## SuperDuperDragon

Whether you feel rating it is necessary or not it is simply silly to let the opinions of others bother you or change your stance on how the match made you feel. I think we can all agree that flawed or not, that match was the shit!


----------



## Corey

smitlick said:


> Has Meltzer given snowflakes to it yet?


Not until Thursday.


----------



## antoniomare007

oh man I really hope Meltzer doesn't give it 5 stars. The amount of trolling, nitpicking and futile discussion that rating would create will make me take a hiatus this board, lol.


----------



## Caponex75

He'll give it ****3/4. I'd eat a hat if he proved me wrong.


----------



## Corey

For me personally, watching the match I didn't think it was 5* and I wasn't even considering giving it that high of a rating. After the match I had ****1/4 in my head, and then I come in and everyone's saying 5 stars. Kinda surprised me. My prediction for Meltzer is ****1/2, same thing he gave Taker/HHH.


----------



## seabs

*He didn't call it a 5* match on Observer Radio. I think he said it was around the same as Taker/Trips so whatever he gave that it'll be around the same.*


----------



## heggland0

Seabs said:


> *He didn't call it a 5* match on Observer Radio. I think he said it was around the same as Taker/Trips so whatever he gave that it'll be around the same.*


Which sounds about right.. There's no way you can get a 5* match out of Cena, he just doesn't have the necessary technical wrestling ability required to make a match go from 4 1/2 to 5*.


----------



## Greek_Tornado

ROH Best In The World iPPV

Chris Daniels vs El Generico: ***3/4

4 way Elimination Tag: ****

Eddie Edwards vs Davey Richards ****3/4


----------



## Mattyb2266

jawbreaker said:


> If you really think this, then you shouldn't be a wrestling fan.
> 
> I'm not arguing that the moment wasn't spectacular. I'm not arguing that the drama wasn't off the charts. I'm not arguing that the atmosphere wasn't unbelievable. I'm arguing that the actual wrestling match wasn't as good as people are claiming it was, and that they're letting their excitement over the angle skew their judgment of what the match actually was.
> 
> It was the most memorable four star match I've ever seen. But it was still a four star match.


This.

It was a great match yes, but I'd say four stars sounds just about right. The atmosphere was incredible and thats important yes, but the match itself was just a great match, not a perfect match.


----------



## peachchaos

I think a decent comparison for Punk/Cena would be Austin/Michaels from WM14 or Michaels/Flair from WM24. A couple HUGE moments in wrestling history with really great build-up and delivery, but while the matches themselves fired on all cylinders and entertained, they were far from classic in-ring outings.


----------



## Nervosa

Caponex75 said:


> I've acknowledged several times and basically told you it was like a freaking MMA like control. Have you ever watched that sport? Guy gets rocked and tries to fight back but you can honestly tell who is the main leader because of most of his offense. Watch the match. I've told you everything from the detail and Eddie doesn't truly get any offense that gets puts pressure on Davey like Richards did him. You can say "BUTZ HEH GUT HIS FINISHA ON HIM".....he had what didn't last a sip of Tea while Richards was clearly dominating him.


Your MMA control argument gets weaker and weaker every time you use it, mostly because you’re the only person I have seen on any board that makes it so ‘interrupted control’ is ‘MMA control. Don’t think its weird that you are the only person arguing that the match had any control at all, let alone this ‘MMA control,’ you made up? Yes, I watch MMA, and just because someone gets rocked doesn’t mean there is any kind of control. The only control that ever happens in MMA is on the ground, because when you’re at standup, a lucky punch can always win it. That’s exactly so here.

What YOU need to watch is some Futen or BattlArts, and see how ‘MMA Wrestling’ is done before you start claiming that Edwards/Richards was in that genre. I don’t love shoot style, but most people who do seriously think Richards is wrestling’s Antichrist, LET ALONE someone who has EVER wrestled an MMA style. (Alan4l can vogue for this)

If you want an MMA example to why this match was a problem, think of it this way: you are fighting a guy who has won his last five matches by rear naked choke. That’s badsically his finisher. If he applies it on you, to the severity that the ref has to check on you…are you in control? Of course not.

Richards was never in control enough for Edwards to not hit his own shit. No control, no comeback, no story. 



> No it doesn't.......workover/comeback doesn't = PROFIT. The Work over formula that has been used for decades and guess what.....it's still totally in the match! The comeback wasn't and while I do think it could of helped, it wasn't what they were going for. HHH won the wars of bomb and starts to murder Taker with a chair shots(Workover which established how much better HHH was than Taker). That's in the match and that was the whole point. Maybe with the comeback it would of been a greater match but it really doesn't hurt the match....well unless you hate selling.
> 
> And you can clearly see HHH favoring his arm a couple times throughout the contest. It wasn't amazing selling but it got the point that the arm was annoying/hurting him at points. Maybe didn't catch it because you missed it live but HHH did favor it.


Pay attention, dude. I already admitted that the chair beatdown was a control session, but the fact that it happened 20 minutes it made it impossible to be used to advance that story. You think Taker just sloppily applying his finisher after a beatdown is selling? Ridiculous.

Also, and I have said this several times, I don’t care if Trips was ACTUALLY injured. The point of the mater is that you were playing it off as a story point when he NEVER favored in on camera, NEVER had trouble doing his moveset and Taker NEVER targeted it. That means…….the story wasn’t there, and you added it yourself. 



> It's sloppy. They didn't hit it to perfection but they didn't fuck it up(Which is botching). It's like Jack Evans. He doesn't botch(Well sometimes) but he is sloppy as crap. It wasn't messed up but could of been done better. It's the in between.


First off, agree on Evans: he never wrecks matches, he is just sloppy. My point however, is that bad application DOES take away from a matches perfect. To me, anything clear sign that something went awry from what was intended, no matter how big, is a botch. If you just want to call it sloppy, that fine….but sloppy is still imperfect. Imperfect disqualifies it from perfection. Duh.




T-C said:


> Do people really watch pro wrestling with a notepad or something and take a quarter of a STAR RATING off every time they see a "botch"? Really?
> 
> It's pro wrestling, it's supposed to be about emotion and how a match or storyline makes you feel, surely it's easier to get swept up in that if you aren't having to keep count of how many quarter stars you've taken off so far?


It’s not like I’m marking off point for point, but I chose to take them into account when I rate the match overall. 



JasperSmerth said:


> A few botches isn't going to hurt the match if it doesn't affect the overall mood of a match.
> 
> E.G In a speedy high flying spotfest, if a wrestler lands on his head and the ref stops the action briefly to check on them, that damages the match. If a wrestler doesn't get all of a dive of the top rope, but doesn't slow down anything. That isn't damaging the match.
> 
> None of Punk or Cena's botches hurt the match.


Disagree. They hurt the match because they made it so it could have been better. They COULD have hit those spots clean, which would have made it better. If you can ever look at a match and say ‘that could have been better,’ then you can’t say its perfect. 

Also, I just want to say that I genuinely love the discussion here, and I'm glad people are talking this out seriously.


----------



## Bubz

Hey Nervosa, I see Claudio/Generico has moved up your list to number 2, good call man lol. Oh, and have you seen Tanahashi/Goto yet?

I need to rewatch Punk/Cena desparately to see if it holds up on second viewing, I hope it does, but I have a feeling it won't.


----------



## Sunglasses

*WWE Money In The Bank 2011*
*WWE Championship*
John Cena (c) vs. CM Punk *****1/2*

*NJPW DOMINION 6.18*
*IWGP Heavyweight Championship*
Hiroshi Tanahashi (c) vs. Hirooki Goto *****1/4+*


----------



## Nervosa

bubz123 said:


> Hey Nervosa, I see Claudio/Generico has moved up your list to number 2, good call man lol. Oh, and have you seen Tanahashi/Goto yet?
> 
> I need to rewatch Punk/Cena desparately to see if it holds up on second viewing, I hope it does, but I have a feeling it won't.


Yeah, the rewatch did Claudio/Generico a whole lot of favors. Amazing story.

I have NOT seen Tanahashi/Goto yet. I need to get to it, but its Tanahashi, who I hate....so its hard to motivate myself. I do love Goto, though. 

I watched Punk/Cena for a second time today and almost lowered my rating to ***3/4. The botches are just so unavoidably obvious. Cena getting INJURED off a botch, and then the leg never playing into Punk's offense was really bad. That means the leg injury was completely a shoot. Also, that botch really killed the momentum, because no one could tell who got the worst of it, and it was awkward. Seabs was saying none of the botches disrupted the flow or caused an injury....but this one did BOTH.


----------



## THE BATMAN.

LOL star ratings. The most useless form of reviewing. They don't tell me shit about a match. Tell me the difference between 4 and quarter and 4 and half. I don't view wrestling as a critic. I watch it as a fan. As if it's a sporting competition. I don't give star ratings to NBA games, or NFL games, and I tend to enjoy them more. 

That said, Punk Vs Cena is one of the best experiences I've had watching wrestling in years. Maybe my favorite match ever. Being that I'm from Illinois, and there was just so much real emotion in that match.


----------



## peachchaos

Obviously a worked pro wrestling match can be judged by the same criteria as a competitive football or basketball game.


----------



## THE BATMAN.

peachchaos said:


> Obviously a worked pro wrestling match can be judged by the same criteria as a competitive football or basketball game.


If you view it in the same vein, yes. Everyone has a different perspective. Once you learn to broaden your horizon, you will learn that. I find trying to rate something, I try not to enjoy it as much, and comb for the flaws more.


----------



## peachchaos

Cool story, bro.


----------



## starship.paint

*Cena v Punk ****3/4*

What an awesome, awesome crowd. The atmosphere was magical. Watching Cena _wrestle_ during the first few minutes was quite amazing indeed. Punk performing like a WWE babyface was very cool as well. Letting Punk win also adds *a lot* to the match. Cena really put him over here, unfortunately I read the spoilers for the match outcome which hurt my perception of the nearfalls a bit, but the first STF and AA were good nearfalls but the second STF and AA were _excellent_ nearfalls. I'm sure I would have lost it at those points had I not read the spoilers. Cena pulling out a few new moves was cool too.

Unfortunately I can't give this *****, as like many of you noted, there were some sloppy spots in the match. Cena selling the leg, and preventing Punk from learning about it, was really well done, but in the end I realized he only sold it for 2 minutes or so. Some other minor nitpicks - Punk was selling _something_ near the end of the match, but I don't know what, maybe because of the camera angle. Was it his back (which would make sense due to taking an AA) Also, how is Cena's top rope legdrop a nearfall? Has he ever pinned anyone with it?

Also, how many of you would still rate this match five stars if... Cena won? Like if Cena kicks out of the GTS, Punk goes for another GTS, but is countered and pinned with a third AA? How would you rate the match then? Personally that would royally me off, probably would drop it to **** or even ***3/4


----------



## Bubz

The point about 'what if Cena won' is actually a good one that hasn't been brought up yet. The fact that Punk won because of Cena stopping the screw job was awesome, had that not happened it would have made the whole thing seem pointless, and I think would have definitely ruined something about it for me. But...It's pointless looking at it like that, Punk did win, and gave us one of the best moments for years, it added alot to the match.


----------



## lewieG

I think the result can play a big part in one's reception of the match. Personally, if Cena had have won, it would have lowered my enjoyment of the match slightly, probably 1/4* off of the rating. Luckily that didn't happen and the finish was done really well.


----------



## antoniomare007

*Takashi Sugiura vs Go Shiozaki - Great Voyage In Tokyo Vol.3 10/7/2011*

This could have been a classic and my current match of the year if the fucking fans at Ariake Colosseum would have reacted to something. I hate shows at Ariake because the crowds are always dead but this time the REALLY pissed me off. Sugi and Go had an awesome stiff match with no big botches and a couple of holy shit moments. They did everything they could to have a memorable match, Sugi being the Unstoppable Force and the Immovable object all roll into one and Go trying everything to get the upper hand and finally beat that stiff motherfucker, but the fans never helped to give them the atmosphere the match deserved...the slaps/lariats exchange at the end got the people to wake up but it wasn't enough. Fuck Ariake fans.


----------



## Fighter Daron

Oh fuck, I was hoping for this match to be great since I saw it.


----------



## antoniomare007

It was great. But if this was in front of a great (or just a good) crowd, it would have been epic, IMO.

I mean Go hit 2 Go Flashers for a nearfall and the fans didn't give a fuck.


----------



## jawbreaker

THE BATMAN said:


> If you view it in the same vein, yes. Everyone has a different perspective. Once you learn to broaden your horizon, you will learn that. I find trying to rate something, I try not to enjoy it as much, and comb for the flaws more.


This is why I try to watch a match twice before I settle on a final rating. First time is to get a general idea of how good it is, second time is to really comb through it and pick out flaws.

BTW, just rewatched Cena/Punk and not changing my rating. Four stars.

1. Kotaro Suzuki vs. Katsuhiko Nakajima, NOAH 3/5, ****1/2
2. Daisuke Sekimoto vs. Ikuto Hidaka, ZERO1 1/1, ****1/4
3. Claudio Castagnoli vs. El Generico, PWG Kurt RussellReunion II, ****1/4
4. John Cena vs. CM Punk, WWE Money in the Bank, ****
5. Roderick Strong vs. Jay Briscoe, ROH Only the Strong Survive, ****

Need to watch:

Hiroshi Tanahashi vs. Hirooki Goto, NJPW 6/18
Sekimoto/Okabayashi vs. Sanada/Soya, AJPW 3/21
Eddie Edwards vs. Chris Hero, ROH Revolution: Canada
Christian vs. Randy Orton, WWE Over the Limit
Cole/O'Reilly vs. LDRS of the New School, wXw 16 Carat Gold


----------



## seabs

*Shiozaki vs Sugiura was really difficult to sit through I thought. I thought it was fucking hilarious how little reaction the Go Flasher's got though. I mean I guess it was good, finishing stretch was actually very good but I just couldn't bring myself to care about it. 30 minute NOAH match doesn't help their cause either and the crowd killed them. Put this match in front of a Korauken New Japan crowd and it probably would have been great for sure. Biggest problem I thought (besides the crowd obv) was the lack of focus and direction that the match had. 

Akiyama vs Nakajima however was awesome. One of the most enjoyable NOAH matches in Japan for some time. Really put Nakajima over without discrediting Akiyama. Similarities to KENTA vs Takayama to sure in the sense that the junior isn't taking any shit and goes on the front foot showing no respect to the legend and ends up taking an ass kicking for it in the end but it had so much better flow. Too short to be a MOTYC but it would have been if it had a proper middle stretch. Still like ***3/4 and really enjoyable plus it goes under 15 minutes which is a bonus too.*


----------



## ddog121

Meltzer gave Punk v. Cena *****, first time he's given that rating since 2006.


----------



## T-C

Dave obviously didn't have his notepad out while watching the match.


----------



## Nervosa

ddog121 said:


> Meltzer gave Punk v. Cena *****, first time he's given that rating since 2006.


And with that...........goes all the prestige of getting a Meltzer 5 star match.


----------



## starship.paint

Nervosa said:


> And with that...........goes all the prestige of getting a Meltzer 5 star match.


... Just because you disagree with him doesn't mean he's wrong. The only prestige of a Meltzer 5 star match is letting him like the match enough to get 5 stars.


----------



## seancarleton77

Fuck star ratings. Punk vs. Cena was a classic. It had the crowd, the big match feel and it had great near falls ala Steamboat vs. Savage. Easily my match of the year ahead of Generico vs. Claudio, Tanahashi vs. Goto & es vs. BJW


----------



## Nervosa

seancarleton77 said:


> Fuck star ratings. Punk vs. Cena was a classic. It had the crowd, the big match feel and it had great near falls ala Steamboat vs. Savage. Easily my match of the year ahead of Generico vs. Claudio, Tanahashi vs. Goto & es vs. BJW


Difference is that when Steamboat did the splash, he didn't short it and injure Savage's leg.



starship.paint said:


> ... Just because you disagree with him doesn't mean he's wrong. The only prestige of a Meltzer 5 star match is letting him like the match enough to get 5 stars.


For the first time in as long as I have followed his ratings, he gave a completely sloppy match the full five. He used to be really stingy on hitting moves clean, but I guess even his standards get put aside just because someone cuts a cool shoot promo. I'm not saying he's wrong....I'm saying his standards have clearly changed, and the lustre of a five star match, as a result, has lowered.

I shudder to think how low the match would have been rated if it wasn't for the buildup. The build-up, I agree, is five stars, but to say the match was is the equivalent of covering you eyes during the match.


----------



## antoniomare007

Nervosa said:


> And with that...........goes all the prestige of getting a Meltzer 5 star match.


with that??? :lmao

There's no prestige in getting 5 snowflakes from Meltzer. Specially now that he's not a top source for wrestling matches.


----------



## Nervosa

antoniomare007 said:


> with that??? :lmao
> 
> There's no prestige in getting 5 snowflakes from Meltzer. Specially now that he's not a top source for wrestling matches.


Agree, but the 5 star accomplishment itself hadn't been lowered as much as it was with this match. 

Even if you didn't like Joe/Kobashi or the DG six man, you could at least see WHY they were five stars. Those matches, at the least, could never be called sloppy. This is a big change.


----------



## starship.paint

Nervosa said:


> Agree, but the 5 star accomplishment itself hadn't been lowered as much as it was with this match.
> 
> Even if you didn't like Joe/Kobashi or the DG six man, you could at least see WHY they were five stars. Those matches, at the least, could never be called sloppy. This is a big change.


You clearly don't understand why some people give this match 5 stars. The atmosphere. storyline and emotional investment was so perfect that Meltzer and many others ignored the sloppiness. That is why some people give Taker v HHH ****1/2, because they were emotionally invested. It's very hard to get someone emotionally invested in a match, so any match that can do that deserves praise.


----------



## -Mystery-

If you can't see why people would rate Punk/Cena 5 stars, I feel sorry for you. Put down the pencil and paper and lose yourself in the fucking match. Do you attend movies too and write down small plot holes and shit instead of actually sitting there and enjoying the movie?


----------



## Nervosa

starship.paint said:


> You clearly don't understand why some people give this match 5 stars. The atmosphere. storyline and emotional investment was so perfect that Meltzer and many others ignored the sloppiness. That is why some people give Taker v HHH ****1/2, because they were emotionally invested. It's very hard to get someone emotionally invested in a match, so any match that can do that deserves praise.


Nah, dude, I totally understand why. Because they were so 'emotionally invested;' that they managed to ignore clear, indisputable flaws.

I know what its like to be emotionally involved in a match. I almost fucking cried watching Kobashi's comeback match after cancer. I understand that emotion is what makes a lot of matches truly amazing. In truth, emotion is what got it all the way to 4 stars for me. But when emotion makes one just pretend flaws didn't happen, its a problem.


----------



## antoniomare007

Nervosa said:


> Agree, *but the 5 star accomplishment itself hadn't been lowered as much as it was with this match. *
> 
> Even if you didn't like Joe/Kobashi or the DG six man, you could at least see WHY they were five stars. Those matches, at the least, could never be called sloppy. This is a big change.


And we shouldn't give a damn about that. It's his opinion and enjoyment of the match. If he "lowered" HIS standard (I don't think he was though) then kudos to him, or not...who cares, lol.

I'm pretty sure no one is going to change the way they rate matches because of Meltzer.



Nervosa said:


> I know what its like to be emotionally involved in a match. I almost fucking cried watching Kobashi's comeback match after cancer. I understand that emotion is what makes a lot of matches truly amazing. In truth, emotion is what got it all the way to 4 stars for me.* But when emotion makes one just pretend flaws didn't happen, its a problem.*


It really isn't man. That's why match ratings shouldn't be taken so seriously.


----------



## -Mystery-

Nobody is pretending flaws didn't happen. It's more so people are minimizing said small flaws because of how emotionally invested in the match they were. Nobody is saying this or that didn't happen, but more so it isn't a major concern to affect their final rating because of how emotionally invested they were. It makes sense.


----------



## Fighter Daron

Nervosa said:


> I shudder to think how low the match would have been rated if it wasn't for the buildup. The build-up, I agree, is five stars, but to say the match was is the equivalent of covering you eyes during the match.


But that's why build-up...exists.


----------



## starship.paint

Nervosa said:


> Nah, dude, I totally understand why. Because they were so 'emotionally invested;' that they managed to ignore clear, indisputable flaws..


Exactly. That's it. That's just it. And there's nothing wrong with that. 

There's nothing wrong with you taking note of the flaws either. Everyone had a different gauge for a 5 star match.


----------



## Nervosa

-Mystery- said:


> Nobody is pretending flaws didn't happen. It's more so people are minimizing said small flaws because of how emotionally invested in the match they were. Nobody is saying this or that didn't happen, but more so it isn't a major concern to affect their final rating because of how emotionally invested they were. It makes sense.


Yes, but this is the exact point Seabs has been making. If five stars is perfect, it means it has no flaws. Something with flaws, no matter how ignorable, can't be called perfect.


----------



## Emperor DC

Some of you guys make me depressed to be a wrestling fan.


----------



## starship.paint

Nervosa said:


> Yes, but this is the exact point Seabs has been making. If five stars is perfect, it means it has no flaws. Something with flaws, no matter how ignorable, can't be called perfect.


No. That's bullshit. A five star match is completely subjective. 

Look at the DG 6 man. Some called it a spotfest. Some criticized the selling. These are "flaws" too


----------



## Vader

There probably isn't such a thing as a perfect match as not everyone will ever agree that it is.


----------



## Kun10

Nervosa said:


> Yes, but this is the exact point Seabs has been making. If five stars is perfect, it means it has no flaws. Something with flaws, no matter how ignorable, can't be called perfect.


Do you get paid to review wrestling matches or something?

Nobody is arguing against your logic. There isn't really anything to argue about. What we are arguing about is the fact you seemingly can't fathom that people don't take reviewing as seriously as you and can overlook some flaws in a match and give it five stars. Five stars in a completely subjective and in most cases irrelevant rating system.


----------



## Nervosa

starship.paint said:


> No. That's bullshit. A five star match is completely subjective.
> 
> Look at the DG 6 man. Some called it a spotfest. Some criticized the selling. These are "flaws" too


No, not really. You can't look at anything in that match, and say "O, they fucked that up." You can say that on at least 4 things in Cena/Punk. I'm not even saying the DG match is five stars: I'm saying that it didn't do anything that should automatically disqualify it. 



Kun10 said:


> Do you get paid to review wrestling matches or something?
> 
> Nobody is arguing against your logic. There isn't really anything to argue about. What we are arguing about is the fact you seemingly can't fathom that people don't take reviewing as seriously as you and can overlook some flaws in a match and give it five stars. Five stars in a completely subjective and in most cases irrelevant rating system.


It's not that I can't fathom them not taking it as seriously as me: I can't fathom a match with botches being considered perfect. 

Five stars mean perfect for me: if five stars isn't perfect for some other reviewers, I don't understand why they are rating the match at all.


----------



## Kun10

Nervosa said:


> Five stars mean perfect for me: if five stars isn't perfect for some other reviewers, I don't understand why they are rating the match at all.


I'd say mostly for fun. You seem to be the only guy who's taking it WAY too seriously.


----------



## jawbreaker

I can totally get emotional investment causing someone to overlook flaws in a match, but only if the match itself creates the emotional investment. There was tons of emotional investment in Punk/Cena, but not a whole lot of it was actually created by the wrestlers in the ring. That, combined with the flaws in execution, which were too numerous for me to overlook, makes the match not as great in my eyes as in the eyes of others.

I mean I get why people think it's five stars, but understanding it doesn't make it significantly more valid to me.


----------



## starship.paint

Nervosa said:


> No, not really. You can't look at anything in that match, and say "O, they fucked that up." You can say that on at least 4 things in Cena/Punk. I'm not even saying the DG match is five stars: I'm saying that it didn't do anything that should automatically disqualify it.
> 
> It's not that I can't fathom them not taking it as seriously as me: I can't fathom a match with botches being considered perfect.
> 
> *Five stars mean perfect for me: if five stars isn't perfect for some other reviewers, I don't understand why they are rating the match at all.*


I didn't rate the DG match five stars. I didn't rate Cena-Punk five stars as well, because I believed the sloppiness took away 1/4*. But why can't you understand that people can ignore sloppiness? I mean, for a DG match, some of us ignore the lack of selling. I saw a Misawa-Kobashi match, and I thought it was kind of slow or something. Some people can ignore botches, and that's just it. Live with it.

You don't understand that everyone has a different definition of perfect... You definition of perfect should not be applied to everyone..


----------



## Nervosa

starship.paint said:


> I didn't rate the DG match five stars. I didn't rate Cena-Punk five stars as well, because I believed the sloppiness took away 1/4*. But why can't you understand that people can ignore sloppiness? I mean, for a DG match, some of us ignore the lack of selling. I saw a Misawa-Kobashi match, and I thought it was kind of slow or something. Some people can ignore botches, and that's just it. Live with it.
> 
> You don't understand that everyone has a different definition of perfect... You definition of perfect should not be applied to everyone..


Yes but 'speed' and 'selling' in your two examples are so much more opinion based than botches. Botches, unlike any other kind of storytelling flaw, are 100% quantifiable. If someone says a 100% clean match was five stars, like the DG 6 man, then that's fine. I don't agree...but at least they didn't have any botches, so there wasn't a moment that disqualified it from perfection. With Cena/Punk, that is not the case. We have hard evidence of fuck ups on that one.


----------



## Generation-Now

Nervosa said:


> Five stars mean perfect for me: if five stars isn't perfect for some other reviewers, I don't understand why they are rating the match at all.


I always took the rating system to be largely based on enjoyment. If someone really loved the match that much, to the point where the sloppy parts didn't even faze them, who are you to say they're wrong? 

Yes, in your subjective (key word) critique of the match it wasn't perfect because of those flaws, but to someone else's critique of the match, those two were able to suspend their belief in everything that was happening to the point where a botch didn't take away from the match.

Not every come from behind armbar in MMA is going to have perfect technique, sometimes a NBA star will slam a game winning basket in the last few seconds of the game when the score is tied and tweak his knee. These moments however, while still technically flaws, don't take away from the excitement of an amazing MMA fight, or the best basketball game you've ever seen. 

I've seen you say yourself that some flaws are excusable if the match makes up for it in some other way. While I agree that this particular match definitely isn't five stars, it's believable that some people have found enough positives to excuse the few negatives in the match to make it (in their minds, 5 stars). Even Misawa and Kawada didn't hit every move with absolute precision. 

I absolute get the point you're making, and I personally agree, but you have to at least be able to see the argument that people aren't basing this ranking on 'perfection', but getting the most enjoyment from the match possible.


----------



## Violent By Design

Giving a match a maximum rating based on it being perfect is arbitrary in my opinion. No match is truly 'perfect' because of different genre's in Pro Wrestling. Not to mention, there is no match where every single move is done with out "flaw" (which even then is subjective, a botch despite what that person said is not quantifiable). 

Your best ratings should go to matches that you enjoyed the most. I don't see why a botch would really make a difference. If you go there, and you watch a match and say "oh, well this match wasn't as good as this one, because this guy slipped" then I think that is a little sad. A botch can indeed suck a person out of a match, but I see no reason why botches should ruin a match that is well put together, in which case Cena vs Punk was. 

I have no idea why wrestling fans are so immersed with botches, in real sports people mess up. It doesn't make it look any less fake to me.


----------



## Ali Dia

Can't believe Meltzer gave it 5. I say this because there are better matches that didn't get 5. I thought for sure he would go ****1/2 as that's what he gave Aries/Punk which is the most comparable match. And Aries/Punk didn't have botches. And it also didn't need a hometown crowd for the crowd to go nuts for it.


----------



## sXsCanadianFansXs

For once, me and Meltzer agree.

Although Taker/Michaels should've been the match to break his multi-year ****3/4 ratings, I'm content with Punk/Cena receiving five stars (if only for the slightly ludicrous fact that John Cena, of all people, is in a "5 star match").


----------



## adri17

:lmao now is people gonna continue to say that Cena can't wrestle?


----------



## smitlick

Why do people give star ratings if there not critiquing a match and its just fun?


----------



## lewieG

As soon as I saw it got 5 stars from Meltzer, I knew this thread would be going off. It makes for an interesting read, everyone's varying opinions. 

I think it's pretty silly to argue about it considering it's people's opinions. People have different tastes and standards, and like different things. No one rating is going to be right or wrong. As much as Meltzer's ratings really don't matter that much, it's still pretty cool he gave it the full 5.


----------



## Fighter Daron

Nervosa said:


> No, not really. You can't look at anything in that match, and say "O, they fucked that up." You can say that on at least 4 things in Cena/Punk.


Really?, really?, botches?, mother of god. Was there any botch?, where?, the landings of Punk?, the Crossbody to the legs?, the sitout Powerbomb on Cena?

If you wanna see botches, look there on some Richards' stuff, like making a Shooting Star Press on the fucking ropes.


----------



## seabs

*Botches is a bit harsh. The crossbody spot that seemed to hurt Cena's leg I guess was a botch but stuff like Punk landing on his butt on the AA reversal was more of a flaw than a botch. I guess that knee to the face was botched too but in a way that it kinda added to the match rather than taking away from it. 

At the end of the day it all comes down to whether or not the flaws affected your enjoyment of the match or not and how noticeable you thought they all were. *


----------



## Berringer

I haven't seen nearly as much 2011 wrestling yet as I'd like to. However, from what little I've seen I'd say my opinion for match of the year leans towards Claudio Castagnoli vs. El Generico for the PWG Championship at "Kurt RussellReunion II". Best thing I've seen since December of last year...and yes I saw the "Money in the Bank" pay-per-view. Punk/Cena did not rank higher for me.


----------



## Bubz

Berringer said:


> I haven't seen nearly as much 2011 wrestling yet as I'd like to. However, from what little I've seen I'd say my opinion for match of the year leans towards *Claudio Castagnoli vs. El Generico* for the PWG Championship at "Kurt RussellReunion II". Best thing I've seen since December of last year...and yes I saw the "Money in the Bank" pay-per-view. Punk/Cena did not rank higher for me.


Yes! Another one! Amazing match.


For me, the only botch in Cena/Punk that bothered me was the cross body on to Cena's knees. Like Seabs said above, that is the only thing in the match I considered to be an actual botch. That knee to the face was fucking brutal! Punk landing on his ass from the AA and the counter of the leg drop into the powerbomb were fine I thought, It was obvious Punk still countered the AA and that he countered the top rope leg drop. Those spots were clearly not done to perfection, but they didn't take anything away from the match for me.


----------



## Word

Meltzer MITB (Besides the 5 star~!~!!!!!~ madnesssss)

Cena/Punk - dare I say?
Orton/Christian - ***3/4
RAW MITB - ***3/4
SD MITB - ****

Go rant.


----------



## Fighter Daron

Seabs said:


> At the end of the day it all comes down to whether or not the flaws affected your enjoyment of the match or not and how noticeable you thought they all were.


I get it and, sincerously, I think those flaws didn't affect anything, but it's Ok.


----------



## Bubz

I would agree with the rest of those ratings, SD MITB was awesome.

Just rewatched Punk/Cena. I fucking love it. The actual match seemed better the second time around, as the first time I was swept up in the emotion of it all, this time I concentrated on the match more, and apart from the cross body spot, the mistakes just seemed so minor compared to everything else these guys did in the ring. Punk landing on his ass was fine foe me, as it just seemed like Punk countered the move anyway, but I understand poeple thinking otherwise, same with the leg drop counter, it looked like a spinebuster attempt to me, even if it was supposed to be a powerbomb, it still looked like Punk countered it into something else. These spots didn't take anything out of the match for me.

The spot were Punk had Cena on the ropes early on and went for the kick but missed was done perfectly. I have seen guys like Richards and KENTA do that spot, but they have never looked as close or as perfectly timed as this. Other things they did were perfect as well, such as the counter out of the GTS into the STF, the suicide dive and the hurricanrana off the top. The nearfalls are the best I have seen for literally years.

The emotion is off the charts here. Since I started watching wrestling, I have never felt like this. I agree the match on its own, without the crowd, the build, the aftermath or the emotion isn't 5 stars, but for me I have to count all of that, as it is what makes this so special, and one of my favorite matches ever (and being a massive Punk mark ).

It isn't 5 stars, because the match wasn't perfect, but it is my MOTY.

Final rating *****1/2*


----------



## seabs

*Bad Intentions vs Hiroshi Tanahashi & Hirooki Goto - NJPW 13.07.2011*
_Super enjoyable match and really got me excited to see their previous match on a much bigger show. Leg work was great even if did kinda get forgotten about during the final stretch. The last few minutes were fucking awesome, especially considering it was on a small show too. The Ace Cutter reversal to the Frog Splash looked incredible with the camera angle they used. There was a great little Anderson/Goto exchange too which got me really excited to see their singles matchup. _

****3/4+*


----------



## Nervosa

Fighter Daron said:


> Really?, really?, botches?, mother of god. Was there any botch?, where?, the landings of Punk?, the Crossbody to the legs?, the sitout Powerbomb on Cena?
> 
> If you wanna see botches, look there on some Richards' stuff, like making a Shooting Star Press on the fucking ropes.


Yes, you actually said them all....except the first GTS that didn't hit Cena in the face at all, and Punk falling from the bulldog before Cena actually did the move.

Most of you guys have opinions like that of Capone, where if it isn't a huge deal, its just a 'flaw' and not a 'botch.' I say they are all botches, because it reveals that they WANTED to do something...and FAILED to do it properly. Even on the small 'flaws' like the legdrop counter and the GTS, you can TELL that they meant to do something contrary to what actually happened. Whatever you want to call it isn't really necessary for my argument. Even if you admit they are flaws, a flaw is all that is needed to ruin perfection. 

And even if most of them are flaws, the crossbody, which accidentally injured Cena, is impossible to ignore.


----------



## Violent By Design

Nervosa said:


> Yes, you actually said them all....except the first GTS that didn't hit Cena in the face at all, and Punk falling from the bulldog before Cena actually did the move.


Yes, it instead hit him in the liver - which would be even more damaging. The move didn't even look awkward, it was done the same pacing, same height and all that as usual, the knee just ended up hitting the mid section. Initially, I didn't even think it was an accident. There's little reason to believe that this could not be seen as a variation. 

The bulldog is a stupid move in general. Either way, Punk still threw Cena down which is all a bull dog is. 

I find it hard to believe that you would rate it 4 stars because of its botches, and not because of its unnecessarily slow pacing or lack of fluent synergy. 





> And even if most of them are flaws, the crossbody, which accidentally injured Cena, is impossible to ignore.


 
I would think the F-U with Punk landing on his ass would be the one that is impossible to ignore.

The way you type it makes it seem like CM Punk missed. He still hit Cena's body, with his own body - hence a cross body drop. Yes, it did not land flush, but do moves in real fights actually land flush? That is what separates Pro Wrestling from movie fights, not every thing is clean. I have little reason to believe why a cross-body drop to someones mid section would not take them down. 

As for saying that CM Punk 'injured' John Cena, I believe that is a grave exaggeration.


----------



## geraldinhio

Wow , I thought The Undertaker vs HHH argument was bad .

Anyway , here's my take on the match . 

*CM Punk vs John Cena -WWE MITB 2011 *

Wrestling wise the match was very good . It wasn't a " five star " Bryan Danielson technical masterpiece but it was a great effort from Punk and Cena . But nobody was expecting a technical masterpiece from these . What they did expect was an emotional thriller and that's what best describes it . The crowd was the best i've seen in years which just shows the aura surrounding the match . 
Obviously there was few flaws in the match , the GTS " botch " and the other ones pointed out Nervosa . It's not like they ruined the match . To me they made no difference what so ever for the sheer reason I was so emotionally involved in the match . To to me is the whole point of pro wrestling and why I started watching it in the first place . 
The emotion and aura in the match make it a classic in it's own right . Add this to some great in ring action and this gives me my new match of the year . **** 3/4


----------



## rafz

WWE Money In The Bank

_Daniel Bryan vs. Sheamus vs. Kane vs. Wade Barrett vs. Cody Rhodes vs. Sin Cara vs. Justin Gabriel vs. Heath Slater - Money In The Bank Ladder Match_

Fucking awesome match, with the exception of Barrett and Rhodes that I thought were just ok, all the others wrestlers were great. First I would like to talk of Sin Cara, which has been massively attacked because he had received a huge push right after their debut in the main roster and had some flaws in some matches, but in this bout there is nothing to complain about him, he made all the moves very well adding quality to the match and took a sick bump. My highlight of the match goes for Sheamus, man this guy evolved so much after getting out of the main event picutre, especially when you have ladders involved in his matches, last year we made a great Ladder match with Morrison and in this year MITB he was awesome, like a real monster heel. About Daniel Bryan, we all know of his talent and he did not disappoint, I hope that this briefcase is a start of changes in his character, I can't see him survive in the main event picture this way, perhaps a little of was the American Dragon heel on ROH, since he's going to the Main Event and will receive more mic time for promos and time for long matches.

*****1/4*

_John Cena vs. CM Punk_

First of all, you cannot start talking about the match before mentioning the build up: three weeks prior Punk deliverd one of the best (if not THE BEST) promos in pro-wrestling history, this was his Austin 3:16 moment who started to make that match at MITB so important like a Main Event at Wrestlemania. We don't have the official numbers, but we will certainly have a number much higher of sales of this PPV thanks to THAT match. After one week off, Punk comesback in the final RAW, this was not Chicago, not his home town and he was cheered like a big star, confronting none other than the chairman of the company, like he said, he was the voice of the voiceless, saying all that was gagging in the throats of the most loyal pro-wrestling fans who were very upset with what the WWE had become, and making them believe that more than leaving with the title, he would defeat the Vince McMahon empire represented by John Cena as the champion.

That fucking outstading atmosphere at MITB wasn't only why was Punk hometown, that crowd represented all true fans who are sick of all this shit that WWE is doing over the years and found in CM PUK their savaior, as soon the PPV started, even in the other matches far away from the main event the crowd was already chanting CM Punk's name.

Now talking about the match, the story here as was said in the last RAW was that Cena was no longer the underdog, but he recognized that Punk was the better wrestler, so we have Cena beginning the match trying to outwrestling Punk, using moves that normally you do not see from John Cena and on the other hand Punk, a warrior carried by the crowd, like for two times locked in the STF who made several superstars tap out but he would not give up no matter what. Cena reversed the GTS attempt into a STF and even when Punk reversed into a Anaconda Vise and Cena again countared into a Attitude Adjustment, amazing sequence.

That match had so many awesome moments, even from the little moments like Punk going for a kick when Cena was on the ropes like KENTA style, or Punk playing with the "YOU CAN'T WRESTLE CHANTS!" from the crowd to great spots like Cena perfectly suplex Punk to outside or the two sick knees following by a bulldog for Punk. There was no flaws that hurt the storytelling of the match, who was brilliant ended at the attempt to another screwjob by Laurinaitis and stoped by Cena btw.

I only have a chance to rewatch four days after and I'm still amazed by that match and I cannot see nothing really relevant to take away all this greatness that I mentioned.

*****3/4*

EDIT: after another rewatch, I definitely cannot give the full five stars to Punk/Cena, all those flaws mentioned here really hurt a bit a match, and all could be avoided, wasn't some high risk maneuvers or something like that, but still is my MOTY for all the reasons I said before.


----------



## Nervosa

Violent By Design said:


> Yes, it instead hit him in the liver - which would be even more damaging. The move didn't even look awkward, it was done the same pacing, same height and all that as usual, the knee just ended up hitting the mid section. Initially, I didn't even think it was an accident. There's little reason to believe that this could not be seen as a variation.


O yeah, I'm sure he was aiming for the liver. that makes sense since he was working the ribs the whole match....O wait, he wasn't. But it does make sense since he has done that variation before.......O wait, he hasn't.

In all honesty....theres no good reason that it would be a variation.



Violent By Design said:


> The bulldog is a stupid move in general. Either way, Punk still threw Cena down which is all a bull dog is.


You're not even watching the right bulldog. Its the one Cena hit Punk with.



> I find it hard to believe that you would rate it 4 stars because of its botches, and not because of its unnecessarily slow pacing or lack of fluent synergy.


I'm actually fine with the synergy, apart from the botches. I also thought the pacing was 100% perfect, espeically the beginning. 



> I would think the F-U with Punk landing on his ass would be the one that is impossible to ignore.


Like everyone said, they played it off really well.



> The way you type it makes it seem like CM Punk missed. He still hit Cena's body, with his own body - hence a cross body drop. Yes, it did not land flush, but do moves in real fights actually land flush? That is what separates Pro Wrestling from movie fights, not every thing is clean. I have little reason to believe why a cross-body drop to someones mid section would not take them down.
> 
> As for saying that CM Punk 'injured' John Cena, I believe that is a grave exaggeration.


Um...he was hurt. He moved really poorly and favored a knee that was NEVER worked over during the match. That's an injury.

And it IS a problem that it didn't land flush because it was MEANT to land flush....which means it failed.

Also, the main problem is how awkward it was AFTER the spot: no one knew if Cena had reversed it, or who got the worst of it, or anything. The crowd was completely confused.


----------



## Bubz

Violent By Design said:


> Yes, it instead hit him in the liver - which would be even more damaging. The move didn't even look awkward, it was done the same pacing, same height and all that as usual, the knee just ended up hitting the mid section. Initially, I didn't even think it was an accident. There's little reason to believe that this could not be seen as a variation.
> 
> The bulldog is a stupid move in general. Either way, Punk still threw Cena down which is all a bull dog is.
> 
> I find it hard to believe that you would rate it 4 stars because of its botches, *and not because of its unnecessarily slow pacing or lack of fluent synergy. *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I would think the F-U with Punk landing on his ass would be the one that is impossible to ignore.
> 
> The way you type it makes it seem like CM Punk missed. He still hit Cena's body, with his own body - hence a cross body drop. Yes, it did not land flush, but do moves in real fights actually land flush? That is what separates Pro Wrestling from movie fights, not every thing is clean. I have little reason to believe why a cross-body drop to someones mid section would not take them down.
> 
> As for saying that CM Punk 'injured' John Cena, I believe that is a grave exaggeration.


If there is anything wrong with the match, it most certainly isn't the pacing and synergy. It was brilliantly paced all the way through.


----------



## flag sabbath

Dear PWG,

Please release the ASW8 DVDs before this thread devours itself.

Thank you.


----------



## seabs

*Akira Tozawa vs SHINGO - Dragon Gate 17.07.2011*
_If this match had more focus and direction then it could have easily been a legit MOTYC because these two really brought it and it had some awesome spots. The suicide dive reversal where SHINGO catches him and drops him with a DVD was fucking nuts. It wasn't like Tozawa went for a slower dive which would have been easier to catch either. The dude was flying full pelt and SHINGO did amazingly well to catch him so cleanly. The suplex on the apron looked awesome too. The early arm work started off well but faded out and never really went anywhere. Would have been an awesome match if they played off that more._

******

*CIMA & Ricochet vs PAC & Dragon Kid - Open The Twin Gate Championships - Dragon Gate 17.07.2011*
_The flaw of SHINGO vs Tozawa was the lack of direction and pacing but it certainly wasn't a problem here. Pacing was great I thought as there was a clear beginning, middle and end and it built to the big climax. Elements of a STF tag in a DG tag was pretty great whilst it lasted too. Shame that there wasn't more PAC/Ricochet exchanges but it wasn't an issue and there's still plenty of mileage between those two. Finish stretch is one of the best this year. Clearly picked up from the rest of the match and the big spots finally started to get busted out all over the place but they did a fine job of not kicking out of any crazy shit or outlasting their welcome and they made sure that PAC took a load of punishment before going down too which worked really well. Ricochet never fails to amaze me every time I see him either. 2nd best DG match this year behind the 4/3 Loser Revives match._

*****1/4+*


----------



## geraldinhio

flag sabbath said:


> Dear PWG,
> 
> Please release the ASW8 DVDs before this thread devours itself.
> 
> Thank you.


This . 

Thinks it's out monday as far as I know . 

Can't wait to see Nightmare Violence Connection vs El Genericochet . I'm giving it five stars just too cause more commotion . :side:


----------



## Nervosa

geraldinhio said:


> This .
> 
> Thinks it's out monday as far as I know .
> 
> Can't wait to see Nightmare Violence Connection vs El Genericochet . I'm giving it five stars just too cause more commotion . :side:


It's ok: a lot of people like giving out 5 stars on hype alone.

I keed. Kinda.


----------



## jawbreaker

This Cena/Punk-related post is largely unprovoked, it's just something I've been thinking about.

A lot of people are talking about Cena/Punk reminding them of why they got into wrestling. For me, that's not the case. I mean, I wanted Punk to win, sure. But simply wanting a guy to win wasn't what made me like wrestling when I first got into it.

What got me into wrestling was the moments where I could forget it was predetermined. Underdog babyfaces who sold like a million bucks getting desperate hope spots, heels glorifying in the destruction of their opponents, wrestlers who made me care who won, not because of what it might mean for an angle, but because of the match itself.

And no, this isn't something I've entirely lost as I've seen more and more wrestling and become increasingly jaded about it. Just a few days ago, I watched Adam Cole vs. Tommaso Ciampa from Defy or Deny and got sucked in like I was a 12 year old watching Smackdown on the edge of my seat to see if Paul London would win. I vividly remember the urge to yell at Claudio Castagnoli to tap through my computer screen when Kyle O'Reilly had him locked in a front guillotine at one of the Honor Takes Center Stage shows. I was genuinely upset when Team F.I.S.T. lost at King of Trios. It's entirely possible for me, as jaded as I am, to mark out like I'm watching wrestling for the first time.

Punk/Cena didn't do that for me. I really wanted Punk to win, but not just because I like him, because I wanted to see where the angle would go. The whole time, I was acutely aware that if Punk won, it would be because WWE creative had the balls to put the belt on him. I was fully aware that the match was a work, and the botches didn't help at all. I could guess what move was coming about 75% of the time towards the end, and I saw the finish coming the moment Vince came out. The emotions I felt when Punk won were mostly mild surprise and bemusement, not excitement and euphoria like I used to have every time Brian Kendrick won a match.

None of this really means much in determining how good the match was, I'm still sticking with ****, but what I'm trying to say is that in no way, shape, or form did Punk/Cena remind me of why I originally loved wrestling, and unless other people got into wrestling via worked shoots and catering to the ivory tower demographic, I'm having a hard time believing it really did for them as much as some are claiming it did.


----------



## Ali Dia

^well said and I agree with all u said. I think the crowd is what hooked me more so than the match. And no doubt had Punk not won my feelings for the match would be different.


----------



## Violent By Design

Nervosa said:


> O yeah, I'm sure he was aiming for the liver. that makes sense since he was working the ribs the whole match....O wait, he wasn't. But it does make sense since he has done that variation before.......O wait, he hasn't.
> 
> In all honesty....theres no good reason that it would be a variation.
> 
> 
> 
> You're not even watching the right bulldog. Its the one Cena hit Punk with.


I don't get it, CM Punk wasn't really working on Cena's jaw. Does that mean him hitting the GTS would be stupid? 

Hey, if I punched you in the liver - you would go down. I don't have to hit you in the liver a 1000 times despite what ever cliche crap pro wrestling fans like to sprout. Telling a story is not working a limb over and over again, there is no reason why that move especially at the end of a 30 minute fight could not stun Cena. Did you really think to yourself "Wow, I cant believe he fucked that up. That made this match more stupid?". This is a serious question. 

Cena was still hit by the GTS, and it sent him out of the ring. So what if it hit his ribs? It still hurts. That is like saying a botched power bomb where someone lands on their head instead of their back doesn't work. Who cares what they were trying to do, why not focus on what was done? After all, it is suppose to be a sports drama not a movie. It isn't suppose to be super clean, and there is no match - especially 30 minute ones where guys do not get some what sloppy. 




> I'm actually fine with the synergy, apart from the botches. I also thought the pacing was 100% perfect, espeically the beginning.


 So relatively minor botches was really the only reason why you think the match wasn't anything special? I believe you gave it a 4/5, which tells me there has to be more than that. I mean a full star rating because of slip ups? It seemed as if you would have gave it 5 stars if not for some botches. That seems harsh, granted if you did not enjoy it then you did not enjoy it. But I don't get how some wrestling fans, not necessarily you can complain about spot fest and what not and then be so harsh on botches. "Botches" happen in real fights, in real sports - if anything it makes the product look more authentic to me. 





> Like everyone said, they played it off really well.


When you say everyone, does that include yourself? 





> Um...he was hurt. He moved really poorly and favored a knee that was NEVER worked over during the match. That's an injury.


No, that is an exaggeration. If I jam my leg and it hurts for 10 minutes, I would sound silly telling people I injured my leg. Cena was fine. And who cares if he was even injured, it didn't affect the match at all. He was still moving at his regular speed for the entire match. Plus it's not like injuries only come from botches. 



> And it IS a problem that it didn't land flush because it was MEANT to land flush....which means it failed.


Why does a move have to land flush for it to have impact? 



> Also, the main problem is how awkward it was AFTER the spot: no one knew if Cena had reversed it, or who got the worst of it, or anything. The crowd was completely confused.


I'm watching it now, and I don't see any confusion. They didn't look lost at all. It fell right into a pin, it just happened rather slowly.


----------



## seancarleton77

The beauty of the GTS is is it can end a match 2 minutes in if you nail it, it's like a Stunner or a Sweet Chin Music, no set up is required, besides wearing a guy down to the point where he can not defend it.


----------



## silver kyle

I've only watched Cena/Punk once, absolutely loved it might I add, but the GTS hitting the ribs was fine with me. By that point the match had gone on for over 20 minutes, maybe even 25? Anywho, Punk being ultra tired and nailing him in the ribs made the match seem that much more real to me. Had he nailed it perfectly I don't think I would have appreciated it as much.

Botches did hurt the match being perfect so I wouldn't call it 5 stars, or even ****3/4. But ****1/2 to me seems reasonable for a first time viewing.


----------



## lewieG

geraldinhio said:


> This .
> 
> Thinks it's out monday as far as I know .
> 
> Can't wait to see Nightmare Violence Connection vs El Genericochet . I'm giving it five stars just too cause more commotion . :side:


But what if one of Tozawa's kicks hits Generico in the shoulder instead of the head? FLAWS~!


----------



## Concrete

I think botches should deduct from a matches rating but I still believe the match is either ****1/2 or ****3/4. Botches hurt but in this case don't kill the match.


----------



## Fighter Daron

lewieG said:


> But what if one of Tozawa's kicks hits Generico in the shoulder instead of the head? FLAWS~!


Great post, haha.


----------



## smitlick

Chikara - Chaos In The Sea of Lost Souls
Eddie Kingston vs El Generico
***3/4-****


----------



## topper1

Tozawa vs Shingo **** 1/4 - ****1/2

Fans of Tozawa recent work in states will enjoy this.


----------



## The Gargano

topper1 said:


> Tozawa vs Shingo **** 1/4 - ****1/2
> 
> Fans of Tozawa recent work in states will enjoy this.


ya that match was amazing, i have it at ****1/2


----------



## Nervosa

Violent By Design said:


> I don't get it, CM Punk wasn't really working on Cena's jaw. Does that mean him hitting the GTS would be stupid?
> 
> Hey, if I punched you in the liver - you would go down. I don't have to hit you in the liver a 1000 times despite what ever cliche crap pro wrestling fans like to sprout. Telling a story is not working a limb over and over again, there is no reason why that move especially at the end of a 30 minute fight could not stun Cena. Did you really think to yourself "Wow, I cant believe he fucked that up. That made this match more stupid?". This is a serious question.
> 
> Cena was still hit by the GTS, and it sent him out of the ring. So what if it hit his ribs? It still hurts. That is like saying a botched power bomb where someone lands on their head instead of their back doesn't work. Who cares what they were trying to do, why not focus on what was done? After all, it is suppose to be a sports drama not a movie. It isn't suppose to be super clean, and there is no match - especially 30 minute ones where guys do not get some what sloppy.


Why would it have been ok had he hit it on the chin? Because that is the NORMAL way the move is done. You were implying that he did it DIFFERENTLY on purpose.....but there is absolutely no way reason for him to intentionally hit him in the jaw, leaving the most likely explanation that it was a botch. I'm not saying it wouldn't hurt...I've seen liver kicks knock people out. But this is Punk's finisher...a move he uses to win most of his matches. What I'm saying is that there is no way it makes sense for him to do the move differently. 

Also, for the record, he hit Cena in the jaw a hell of a lot more than he ever worked the ribs or liver.

Sure, when you land a powerbomb on the head, it still hurts....but the crowd can tell that it was a fuck up. Sure, Cena fell out of the ring, because he knew that was what he was supposed to do: even if the move wasn't hit clean, Cena knew he was supposed to end up on the outside. 

And honestly, there are tons of matches that go 30 minutes that do not end up getting sloppy. I can't believe you would even contend to the contrary. 



> So relatively minor botches was really the only reason why you think the match wasn't anything special? I believe you gave it a 4/5, which tells me there has to be more than that. I mean a full star rating because of slip ups? It seemed as if you would have gave it 5 stars if not for some botches. That seems harsh, granted if you did not enjoy it then you did not enjoy it. But I don't get how some wrestling fans, not necessarily you can complain about spot fest and what not and then be so harsh on botches. "Botches" happen in real fights, in real sports - if anything it makes the product look more authentic to me.


Yes, 'relatively minor' botches knocked off an entire star....because there was, like, 5 of them. And one-to-two big ones. 

Its not that I would have given it 5 stars if not for 'some botches,' its that several botches caused me to basically disqualify it from, being perfect. I could see myself giving it five stars had it been 100% clean, but we'll never really know....because it wasn't even close to 100% clean.

Again, the 'real sports' argument does nothing for me. Why people compare worked wrestling to real sports is beyond me, espeically in this thread. 

My point that you responded to here was just that when it came to the pacing and synergy, I didn't have a problem with either. 




> When you say everyone, does that include yourself?


Actually, look back. Several people mentioned that even when Punk landed on his ass, he still got up and did the next spot quick enough that it didn't, at the very least, affect the flow of the match. That was my point on that particular, line, at least. 



> No, that is an exaggeration. If I jam my leg and it hurts for 10 minutes, I would sound silly telling people I injured my leg. Cena was fine. And who cares if he was even injured, it didn't affect the match at all. He was still moving at his regular speed for the entire match. Plus it's not like injuries only come from botches.
> 
> Why does a move have to land flush for it to have impact?
> 
> I'm watching it now, and I don't see any confusion. They didn't look lost at all. It fell right into a pin, it just happened rather slowly.


Which Cena kicked out of, and then was up moving before Punk, who had actually done the pin. Punk basically did the pin, and then sold more than Cena....that makes no sense. Awkward as hell. Sure, it went right into a pin...but the part after...the part where the audience needs to realize who got the worst of the spot....loses the plot of the match completely.

I agree...the injury didn't affect the rest of the match in terms of Cena's mobility, but it revealed to the audience that the performers had done something wrong. Considering legwork was never a story line in the match, and Punk didn't go after it, we are able to see that the spot was botched, and badly enough that Cena was hurt, making it a pretty serious fuck up. 

The problem here is that didn't come off as if the move had missed or been a graze: there was clearly a collision, and the confusion came in who got the worst of it. No one could tell if Cena got his knees up, or if Punk hit it clean, or what. So they did a confusing pin which even Punk didn't look too committed to, and then both guys sold and the announcers had to guess who actually got the worst of the spot. It was basically a really awkward time-out in the middle of the match where everyone had to guess who was in control.

Also, for all of you "Dont B SERIOUZ, I R8 matchez 4funz!" people who avoided it, I'll repost the brilliant question from a few pages back.'



smitlick said:


> Why do people give star ratings if there not critiquing a match and its just fun?


----------



## xzeppelinfootx

Why do people give star ratings period. Nobody cares about the extra quarter star you give to anything.


----------



## Kun10

Nervosa said:


> Also, for all of you "Dont B SERIOUZ, I R8 matchez 4funz!" people who avoided it, I'll repost the brilliant question from a few pages back.'


Nobody is avoiding it. We are all trying to get it through your head that we watch wrestling for our ENJOYMENT. You clearly value yourself as some sort of 'Wrestling Critic' but most folk on this site rate matches for fun, enjoyment. You know? FUN? ENJOYMENT? You should try it sometime, without the notepad and pen.


----------



## Alan4L

The top three matches at Kobe World were all outstanding. I loved the Twin Gate the most.


----------



## ddog121

Alan, how was the Takayama, Ichikawa, Fuji tag?


----------



## Alan4L

ddog121 said:


> Alan, how was the Takayama, Ichikawa, Fuji tag?



fun! great finish


----------



## ddog121

Alan4L said:


> fun! great finish


sweet, can't wait to watch this show. pumped for the tag and Tozawa/Shingo.


----------



## Nervosa

Kun10 said:


> Nobody is avoiding it. We are all trying to get it through your head that we watch wrestling for our ENJOYMENT. You clearly value yourself as some sort of 'Wrestling Critic' but most folk on this site rate matches for fun, enjoyment. You know? FUN? ENJOYMENT? You should try it sometime, without the notepad and pen.


If I'm supposedly being ignorant to you guys just watching for 'enjoyment,' this comment is just as ignorant to me for the enjoyment I get from BEING critical. 

There have been matches that have been truly fun and enjoyable to me....but they are fun because they SURVIVE criticism instead of caving to it.


----------



## topper1

**** - ****1/4 for the Twin gate tag I perfered the Tozawa match.

Maasaki Mochizuki vs BxB Hulk worth watching?


----------



## FITZ

Nervosa said:


> If I'm supposedly being ignorant to you guys just watching for 'enjoyment,' this comment is just as ignorant to me for the enjoyment I get from BEING critical.
> 
> There have been matches that have been truly fun and enjoyable to me....but they are fun because they SURVIVE criticism instead of caving to it.


I rate my matches based off how much I enjoy it but when people do stupid things in a match or make ugly botches that hurts my enjoyment. There were 2 moments during Cena/Punk where I thought, "Owwww" in the middle of the match. That hurts the enjoyment.


----------



## Nervosa

TaylorFitz said:


> I rate my matches based off how much I enjoy it but when people do stupid things in a match or make ugly botches that hurts my enjoyment. There were 2 moments during Cena/Punk where I thought, "Owwww" in the middle of the match. That hurts the enjoyment.


So............you're agreeing with me?


----------



## smitlick

Just a few points I'd again like to point out.

People have mentioned the great build adding to the match. The great build made you buy/download the match/show. It makes you care about one guy or the other. IT DOESN'T MAKE THE MATCH TECHNICALLY BETTER. Have a look at Steen/Generico in ROH, Fantastic one year build. It wasn't given 5 stars by to many people because it didn't deserve it. Punk/Cena is in no way different.

Star Ratings are used when you watch a match and want to provide your opinion and critique of the match. I enjoyed the 6 Man Tag Opener on the 1st Chikara show of this year. My enjoymen levels were very high, that then doesn't mean i can give the match ***** becase i enjoyed it a lot. Its like the PWG Multi Man Tag back at BOLA a few years ago that i jokingly gave *****. Its in no way a ***** match but it was very enjoyable.

Then someone compared star ratings to going to a movie and doing the same. You do realise people get paid and make a living out of rating movies. Its taken a lot more seriously and there are various places where you can read peoples opinions online about various movies and the then rating they gave it so comparing wrestling ratings to watching a movie is in short. RIDICULOUS.

I usually avoid posting opinions during the crazy time that Nervosa stirs up in these threads but i couldn't help myself here. Also may i add that personal attacks of Nervosas opinion are in no way helping your point and make you like like a child. You may not like his opinion but the whole point of this thread is to argue opinions and provide your critique.


----------



## rafz

NOAH European Navigation 2011 Night 2
_Kings Of Wrestling vs. Takeshi Morishima & Shuhei Taniguchi_
Fantastic match, all four men were awesome in this strong MOTYC, the best tag team match I've seen this year.
*****1/2*

_Go Shiozaki vs. Katsuhiko Nakajima_
Great but I was expecting more. Shiozaki poor leg selling really annoyed me, but Nakajima hitting a superflex after calling a brainbuster and the crowd chanting "THIS IS SUPLEX" made laugh a lot :lmao
******

_Zack Sabre Jr. vs. KENTA_
Awesome match, with great misc of stiff and technnical wrestling, shame that KENTA botched the GTS at the end.
*****1/4*

Dragon Gate Kobe World Festival 
_Akira Tozawa vs. Shingo_
Another strong MOTYC, brutal match, love it.
*****1/4*

_CIMA & Ricochet vs. PAC & Dragon Kid_
Great spotfest match, pretty boring for the first 10 minutes with all that annoying work in Kid, but was getting better with some well done spots.
******


----------



## smitlick

*ROH - So Cal Showdown II*

Davey Richards vs TJ Perkins
****

El Generico vs Roderick Strong 
****


----------



## geraldinhio

I used to enjoy reading Nervosa's posts , now they just annoy me . I think he just likes trying to rip apart popular matches as in Davey / Edwards , Taker / HHH , Punk / Cena etc 

I fell sorry for him really , he sounds like he's critiquing matches too much to enjoy them . It's like he sits down with a pen and notepad to take notes just to make as much arguments as you can . 

Try not to pay so much attention to detail and you will enjoy the matches a hell of a lot more .


----------



## Nervosa

geraldinhio said:


> I used to enjoy reading Nervosa's posts , now they just annoy me . I think he just likes trying to rip apart popular matches as in Davey / Edwards , Taker / HHH , Punk / Cena etc
> 
> I fell sorry for him really , he sounds like he's critiquing matches too much to enjoy them . It's like he sits down with a pen and notepad to take notes just to make as much arguments as you can .
> 
> Try not to pay so much attention to detail and you will enjoy the matches a hell of a lot more .


Or, you know, I can enjoy the matches that are good enough to actually survive the criticism. If I NEVER rated anything high, you would have a point, but since I do, this whole post makes no sense. The three matches you named were extremely flawed, so I pointed out said flaws. Orton/Christian from OTL was also very popular, and did I rip it apart? No...I actually rated it HIGHER than most people did. And why? Because it survived criticism where the others didn't. How it's not everyone's WWE match of the year, I'll never understand. 

If you scroll down a little, you'll see my MOTY list. You'll find on that list several other matches that most people didn't enjoy whatsoever, including my current Match of the Year, which I don't believe anyone else except Jaws has given ****1/2 to. The fact that it can even be implied that I didn't enjoy these matches is further ignorance.

You say if I don't pay attention to detail, I'll enjoy them more, but that is just ridiculous. Wrestlers often pour over the little details in order to make the matches the best they can be. If I ignore details, I'm ignoring their work, for better or worse. The matches that I find truly enjoyable survive criticism. In the end, that is what criticism is truly for: finding the TRULY special, rather than just 'the best match in a while.'

This 'pen and paper,' comment I keep getting is hilarious. Don't worry guys: Punk and Cena's botches were so obvious, business revealing, and memorable, that no one who is paying attention could ever need to write them down to remember them.


----------



## rafz

I noticed that half of my top 10 motycs are in Nervosa's UnMotys :lmao


----------



## Nervosa

rafz said:


> I noticed that half of my top 10 motycs are in Nervosa's UnMotys :lmao


Knowing our respective opinions, I don't think either of us can be too surprised.

Honestly, I could easily put Tanahashi/Nagata in there to make it EXACTLY half for you, but I don't like having more than 7 matches in the Unmotys.


----------



## Kun10

Nervosa said:


> Or, you know, I can enjoy the matches that are good enough to actually survive the criticism. If I NEVER rated anything high, you would have a point, but since I do, this whole post makes no sense. The three matches you named were extremely flawed, so I pointed out said flaws. Orton/Christian from OTL was also very popular, and did I rip it apart? No...I actually rated it HIGHER than most people did. And why? Because it survived criticism where the others didn't. How it's not everyone's WWE match of the year, I'll never understand.
> 
> If you scroll down a little, you'll see my MOTY list. You'll find on that list several other matches that most people didn't enjoy whatsoever, including my current Match of the Year, which I don't believe anyone else except Jaws has given ****1/2 to. The fact that it can even be implied that I didn't enjoy these matches is further ignorance.
> 
> You say if I don't pay attention to detail, I'll enjoy them more, but that is just ridiculous. Wrestlers often pour over the little details in order to make the matches the best they can be. If I ignore details, I'm ignoring their work, for better or worse. The matches that I find truly enjoyable survive criticism. In the end, that is what criticism is truly for: finding the TRULY special, rather than just 'the best match in a while.'
> 
> This 'pen and paper,' comment I keep getting is hilarious. Don't worry guys: Punk and Cena's botches were so obvious, business revealing, and memorable, that no one who is paying attention could ever need to write them down to remember them.



Ugh, I was probably out of line with my last post but its this whole 'elitist' vibe you give off in your posts. We're all ignorant, we get it.

Orton-Christian wasn't as highly praised as the others. The fact your sig contains a list of matches that everybody else loved yet you don't really tells a story. I also think you're totally wrong with your point about ignoring their work. Wrestlers don't go out their and bust their ass so we can tell them how many times they botched and how many 1/4*s it took off our ratings. Quite the opposite really. There's constructive criticism then there's going out your way to nitpick and rubbish a match.

If you get fun in taking in every detail of a match and actually LOOKING for flaws then fair to you. I may not agree, but it's your choice. My point is just because you feel this way doesn't mean everybody else is ignorant or wrong.


----------



## rafz

Nervosa said:


> Knowing our respective opinions, I don't think either of us can be too surprised.
> 
> Honestly, I could easily put Tanahashi/Nagata in there to make it EXACTLY half for you, but I don't like having more than 7 matches in the Unmotys.


No problem man 

You should watch that KOW/Morishima & Taniguchi match from NOAH European Tour, wasn't so popular like the others MOTYCs here that you hate and I could not agree more with everything that Seabs said about the match, including this as the best Kings match ever.

Knowing your respective opinions, you may like it


----------



## Nervosa

Kun10 said:


> Ugh, I was probably out of line with my last post but its this whole 'elitist' vibe you give off in your posts. We're all ignorant, we get it.
> 
> Orton-Christian wasn't as highly praised as the others. The fact your sig contains a list of matches that everybody else loved yet you don't really tells a story. I also think you're totally wrong with your point about ignoring their work. Wrestlers don't go out their and bust their ass so we can tell them how many times they botched and how many 1/4*s it took off our ratings. Quite the opposite really. There's constructive criticism then there's going out your way to nitpick and rubbish a match.
> 
> If you get fun in taking in every detail of a match and actually LOOKING for flaws then fair to you. I may not agree, but it's your choice. My point is just because you feel this way doesn't mean everybody else is ignorant or wrong.


No wrestlers don't bust their asses for snowflakes, but they do pay attention to very small things they do during their matches to make them better. Your last point was that I shouldn't pay attention to details, but wrestlers put a lot of thought into those little details, so I think I have every reason to do the same. That was the point.

I'm not looking for flaws dude: the fact is, I don't need to. The flaws reveal themselves. You're just choosing to cover your eyes during those points, whereas I let them factor into the quality of the product. And thats FINE if its what you like to do...but you act like I'm examining tape frame by frame to find errors when most of these errors are plain as day to the naked eye. 

Also, your last sentence works both way. just because everyone enjoyed the match and I didn't doesn't mean I'm wrong either. At least I'm pointing to things that actually happened in the match instead of pretending they didn't happen or lessening their blow.




rafz said:


> No problem man
> 
> You should watch that KOW/Morishima & Taniguchi match from NOAH European Tour, wasn't so popular like the others MOTYCs here that you hate and I could not agree more with everything that Seabs said about the match, including this as the best Kings match ever.
> 
> Knowing your respective opinions, you may like it


I love this post. It's the lolz. Rafz, we agree on almost nothing, but you, sir, are awesome.

I have already downloaded the mentioned match, and will be watching it soon. I've got a good bit of catching up to do. My major problem is that Fantasy English Premier League just opened....and damn does that stupid game take up a lot of my time.


----------



## Kun10

Nervosa said:


> No wrestlers don't bust their asses for snowflakes, but they do pay attention to very small things they do during their matches to make them better. Your last point was that I shouldn't pay attention to details, but wrestlers put a lot of thought into those little details, so I think I have every reason to do the same. That was the point.
> 
> I'm not looking for flaws dude: the fact is, I don't need to. The flaws reveal themselves. You're just choosing to cover your eyes during those points, whereas I let them factor into the quality of the product. And thats FINE if its what you like to do...but you act like I'm examining tape frame by frame to find errors when most of these errors are plain as day to the naked eye.
> 
> Also, your last sentence works both way. just because everyone enjoyed the match and I didn't doesn't mean I'm wrong either. At least I'm pointing to things that actually happened in the match instead of pretending they didn't happen or lessening their blow.


We don't seem to be getting anywhere so this will probably be the last post I make. You seem to be missing my point. I'm not saying you are wrong or you shouldn't pay attention to details. I'm saying you shouldn't 'look down' on people who don't. 

I can't see it tbh. If I went out and busted my ass then you walked up and started pointing out little flaws you'd 'found' I'd probably tell you where to go, or I wouldn't care. Either way... I'm not trying to say you should say every match is perfect either.

Punk-Cena is a bad example to use. I remember reading your HHH-Taker review and thinking you went way overboard. Not that I want to start a debate over your ratings of that match or anything.


----------



## smitlick

PWG - Kurt RusselReunion II - The Reunioning

Chris Hero vs Kevin Steen
****


----------



## Nervosa

Kun10 said:


> We don't seem to be getting anywhere so this will probably be the last post I make. You seem to be missing my point. I'm not saying you are wrong or you shouldn't pay attention to details. I'm saying you shouldn't 'look down' on people who don't.
> 
> I can't see it tbh. If I went out and busted my ass then you walked up and started pointing out little flaws you'd 'found' I'd probably tell you where to go, or I wouldn't care. Either way... I'm not trying to say you should say every match is perfect either.
> 
> Punk-Cena is a bad example to use. I remember reading your HHH-Taker review and thinking you went way overboard. Not that I want to start a debate over your ratings of that match or anything.


I get your point, I just don't agree. I never said people weren't allowed to enjoy it: I'm saying I have evidence and reasons to back up my opinions, and if people are going to tell me I'm wrong, I don't think I'm out of line to ask for the same kind of reason. 

If you were a wrestler, and you busted your ass, you wouldn't NEED me to point out the flaws: these wrestlers are usually their own worst critics, and they can tell when something goes off the plan like it did in that match. I'm willing to bet you one of the first things Punk said the next time he talked to Cena was to apologize for the crossbody botch and to check if his leg was ok. 

I'll be the first to admit that I handled the HHH/Taker debate poorly. (actually, I already have) I shouldn't have said the match didn't have a story, because it clearly did. What I meant was that the story was told poorly, which I still believe now. I still don't think I've gotten very good reasons why that match was all that special, and I don't think the logical flaws I brought up were argued against with any kind of quality. Even in that case, I never 'looked down,' on people until some people started writing things into the story that never happened.


----------



## Violent By Design

hey, does anyone have a problem using the search engine on this site? it says I dont have access or something, but I know I did before and I haven't really made any post that would get me banned or something (in fact, I haven't posted in quite a while). It's a pain trying to get matches when I can't use the search engine.


----------



## smitlick

PWG - Kurt RussellReunion 2 - The Reunioning

Claudio Castagnoli vs El Generico
****1/4


----------



## Nervosa

Tanahashi vs. Goto
***1/2

God help us all if Tanahashi ever wrestles Eddie Edwards. That will be the most aimless, storyless half an hour in wrestling history. 

And as if I needed more reasons to hate Tanahashi, he’s still doing the stupid air guitar thing. What a douche. 

Tanahashi’s mat wrestling is just so loose…it looks awful. He eventually gets control of the leg, and has a really decent workoever, if short. But Goto’s basic striking is far superior to Tanahashi’s and Goto’s chops give him the chance to take advantage of Tanahashi trying to skin the cat. This is a cool reversal of fortune, but Goto is already running on a supposedly injured. Then, once on the outside….he does a leg lariat into the guardrail. Um….shouldn’t he be selling that? 

Goto has a small bit of control, but what follows if just the guys randomly hitting each other with moves with no control or reason behind it, reminiscent of Richards/Edwards. After nearly ten minutes of this, Tanahasi finally goes back to the leg, but it still renders the previous section pretty pointless overall. The only redeeming part of this section is Goto beheading Tanahashi with a lariat. Even if there are things I don’t like in this match, I can always find a little enjoyment in watching Tanahashi’s bitch ass get slaughtered. 

Even though Tanahashi eventually returns to the leg, it has little effect, and both guys just end up continuing to hit moves for no reason. Tanahashi buys some time with small reversals and then hits a German suplex…but releases because his neck is hurt? I’m sorry….did I miss Goto working over the neck or something, because I don’t remember that at all. Tanahashi is now selling something that wasn’t even worked over….that’s a new one. MAYBE they are playing off the two big lariats, but that is a stretch….Tanahashi didn’t even sell those moves that well. I went back to find Seabs’ review, and he talks about how Goto worked over Tanahashi’s neck….but I don’t see it at all here. Please help me if I’m missing it because him breaking the bridge just caught me out of nowhere. 

I guess another possibility is that he hurt himself on the move, or its even more possible that he ACTUALLY hurt himself on the move, but still very strange. Anyway, it doesn’t seem to matter much as Tanahashi reverses the very next move enough to hit what might be his fifth or sixth dragon screw. Don’t get me wrong, I love dragon screws, but this is the most uncreative way to work over a leg I have ever seen. It’s followed by a moderately cool rope running spot that leads to….sigh…another slingblade. Tanahashi is now hopping around like he’s 100% to get to the top rope and hit the High Fry Frow…which he misses. Goto follows up with a nasty northern lariat, and now, perhaps, the neck story could come into play. They then do some rollup spots, ending in a BAD botch where Tanahashi goes for a victory roll and Goto trips and basically ends up giving him a muscular bomb. I………guess that could have been on purpose, but I don’t think so. Goto hits his sick fireman’s carry neckbreaker off the top rope, and Tanahashi’s neck is has finally taken three consecutive moves….twenty minutes into the match. They get up and trade strikes before Goto pulls out the big headbutt that has been built up so much, and hits the finisher that the vignette showed him perfecting…but Tanahashi kicks out! After all this time, and his very best moves, Goto still can’t win the big one. 

Goto goes for his OLD finisher, but Tanahashi lands on his feet, hits the injured knee, does Goto’s headbutt….and hits the single pussiest lariat that I will ever see in my entire life: Goto, of course, bumps the hell out of it. Seriously guys……..that lariat is the stuff of nightmares. This is followed by Dragon suplex, Dragon suplex, REVERSE slingblade (of course) reverse High Fry Frow and regular high fry frow for the win. 

Just a weird one, here. Early legwork, but not very much, then a big section of moth guys trading moves for no reason, then Tanahashi sells the neck out of nowhere, Goto targets it, Tanahashi reverses a big move, hits his stupid shit, and wins. Just a weird, weird way to set up a match. On top of that, the leg work never really went anywhere: didn’t lead to a nearfall, didn’t hinder Goto’s offense. Goto didn’t sell it very well, but I don’t even know if it was worked over enough to warrant it. There was some sloppiness here, as well: Tanahashi’s chain wrestling is awful, and Goto damn near killed him on that victory roll attempt…thing? 

I can’t go any higher that ***1/2 here. I didn’t even think the action was anything amazing. Tanahashi’s slingblade variants and HFF variants were old three years ago.


----------



## seabs

Violent By Design said:


> hey, does anyone have a problem using the search engine on this site? it says I dont have access or something, but I know I did before and I haven't really made any post that would get me banned or something (in fact, I haven't posted in quite a while). It's a pain trying to get matches when I can't use the search engine.


*Non premium members can't search anymore. It's a feature they weren't supposed to have and it's now been taken away. If you're looking for download links of matches discussed in this thread then just go to Wrestling Media -> Megapost and click on my 2011 MOTYC Megapost and it'll have everything you need. *


----------



## Fighter Daron

Nervosa said:


> Tanahashi vs. Goto
> ***1/2
> 
> God help us all if Tanahashi ever wrestles Eddie Edwards. That will be the most aimless, storyless half an hour in wrestling history.


With that being said, I've realized you are the top heel in this forum lol.


----------



## CM Putnam

I gotta go with Punk vs. Cena. Though I haven't been watching as much lately.


----------



## lewieG

I thought the crossbody hitting Cena's leg ended up being a good spot, because instead of selling his ribs and pretending it hit him there, Cena sold the leg in the aftermath of the move.


----------



## Caponex75

I'm going to go ahead and ignore the last post as I'm sure it is nothing but the same old stuff but I've got a question for you, Nerv. With the miscues/sloppiness in Nakajima/Suzuki, how come you didn't rate it lower? Just watched it for the first time(Fun as heck match) and they clearly missed the guardrail when Nakajima was supposed to slam Suzuki from the apron into it. Nakajima miscued a couple times and made it obvious that he was going to do a reversal one time as well. Of course the move at the end before the tiger driver was just all kinda of sloppy but why did this get a high rating/your MOTY? Just color me curious. 

Btw I still enjoyed the match though and give it around **** for a great finishing stretch that popped out of nowhere.


----------



## antoniomare007

he kinda answered that question on a reply to 1 on my post



Nervosa said:


> See, you say 'ignore,' I say 'logically reason.' The very same logic that reveals flaws can also be used to explain them. To me, the use of logical reason what makes it NOT simply 'ignoring' a flaw.
> 
> Plenty of people just like to ignore the flaws of a match, or give reasons that make no sense. I think true criticism determines which line of reasoning is logical and which isn't, whether it be positive or negative.


I still think he does what everyone of us here does. Ignore or don't care about flaws that don't affect your level of enjoyment out of a match. He just explains them with "logic" (when even some botches from Punk vs Cena can be explained if you want to).

Nervosa seems to have a standard were botches keep a match away from the "perfect" rating but that doesn't mean he didn't enjoy said match. 

What I find funny is the stance of "ratings are supposed to be serious" when in reality that's not the case. It's almost as comical as Austin101's "ratings are facts, not opinions" although not as outlandish.


god damn it, I didn't want to post this kind of pointless stuff again :fpalm:


----------



## Nervosa

Caponex75 said:


> I'm going to go ahead and ignore the last post as I'm sure it is nothing but the same old stuff but I've got a question for you, Nerv. With the miscues/sloppiness in Nakajima/Suzuki, how come you didn't rate it lower? Just watched it for the first time(Fun as heck match) and they clearly missed the guardrail when Nakajima was supposed to slam Suzuki from the apron into it. Nakajima miscued a couple times and made it obvious that he was going to do a reversal one time as well. Of course the move at the end before the tiger driver was just all kinda of sloppy but why did this get a high rating/your MOTY? Just color me curious.
> 
> Btw I still enjoyed the match though and give it around **** for a great finishing stretch that popped out of nowhere.


That's fine; ignore my last post. You weren't going to have a legitimate response anyway. You haven't yet.

I think a fact you're ignoring is that I didn't give that Suzuki/Nakajima 5 stars, either. I think that is what is important here. If I had given it 5 stars, you'd have a totally legit complaint here, but I didn't claim the match was perfect, or even really close to it. That 1/2 star below perfection is a pretty big gap. Nevertheless, it was certainly more clean than Cena/Punk though, and by quite a bit. 

In all honesty, I didn't find it all that sloppy. I never even noticed that he didn't hit the guardrail on the top: he still crashed into the guardrail. Saying he 'missed' it is ridiculous. He still crashed into it and it still looked nasty. It's not even something you notice unless you're looking for it, considering he still made a big impact. Big difference between that and Cena/Punk, where the botches were completely obvious miscues. This was more like someone getting their hands up on a chairshot and saying it didn't hit them in the head, so it wasn't done right. Huge difference. 

The Nakajima miscues you're discussing are kinda vague. I can remember one during a strike exchange that was kinda weird, but again...I'm not saying the match was perfect. Even THAT strike still connected and still looked painful. That is probably the 'obvious reversal' you referred to. I certainly factored that one into my rating, even if I think it was pretty minor, considering the strike still landed pretty solid. If there was more than that one, and the big one at the end (discussed below) I would love to know about it.

If you bothered to read my original review, you would have noted that I did, indeed, take that big last move into consideration, but the more I watch it, the more I think that it WAS actually done on purpose that way. That was actually my biggest complaint about the match, which I don't really mind so much, now. I have never seen Suzuki execute that move before or since, so I'm not really sure what it was SUPPOSED to look like. 



antoniomare007 said:


> I still think he does what everyone of us here does. Ignore or don't care about flaws that don't affect your level of enjoyment out of a match. He just explains them with "logic" (when even some botches from Punk vs Cena can be explained if you want to).


Honestly, what flaws have I ignored, exactly? Most of my reviews, even of the matches I love, specifically mention the flaws of the match, and how they affected my enjoyment. I think one can use to logic to determine whether complaints are legitimate or not, nowhere more than when it comes to botches. 



> Nervosa seems to have a standard were botches keep a match away from the "perfect" rating but that doesn't mean he didn't enjoy said match.
> 
> What I find funny is the stance of "ratings are supposed to be serious" when in reality that's not the case. It's almost as comical as Austin101's "ratings are facts, not opinions" although not as outlandish.


Well, I never saw Austin101's post, but I certainly think that's one of the most ridiculous things I've ever read. I'm sorry I'm saying anything comparable to something so ridiculous, but I think there is a pretty big difference. 

I'm not trying to say ratings are supposed to be serious. I rate comedy matches all the time. What I meant with that post was that ratings were kinda invented for the sake of critique, despite several people on this thread who were saying if you're critiquing, you're not having fun or enjoying the match, and that star ratings should be based solely on enjoyment, not mistakes.

You are right that botches prevent perfection, for me, and even MORE right that I can still enjoy an imperfect match.


----------



## Caponex75

Nervosa said:


> That's fine; ignore my last post. You weren't going to have a legitimate response anyway. You haven't yet.


No. I'm ignoring it because it's dumb and repetitive to argue with you when it is the same stuff we are arguing about for five pages. After awhile, it gets really freaking boring and uneventful. 



> I think a fact you're ignoring is that I didn't give that Suzuki/Nakajima 5 stars, either. I think that is what is important here. If I had given it 5 stars, you'd have a totally legit complaint here, but I didn't claim the match was perfect, or even really close to it. That 1/2 star below perfection is a pretty big gap. Nevertheless, it was certainly more clean than Cena/Punk though, and by quite a bit.


It's still a legit complaint if you are rating a match ****1/2(Which falls in classic territory for me) and all of the other is not debatable or is irrelevant to my question.



> In all honesty,* I didn't find it all that sloppy. I never even noticed that he didn't hit the guardrail on the top: he still crashed into the guardrail. Saying he 'missed' it is ridiculous*. He still crashed into it and it still looked nasty. It's not even something you notice unless you're looking for it, considering he still made a big impact. Big difference between that and Cena/Punk, where the botches were completely obvious miscues. This was more like someone getting their hands up on a chairshot and saying it didn't hit them in the head, so it wasn't done right. Huge difference.


:lmao Fo Realz? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_fZiBvrsds 12:42. Suzuki didn't come close to it and it was a major spot in the match....EVEN IF YOU WEREN'T LOOKING FOR IT. Fans even hit a dead silence about it. Compare that to CM Punk not having proper balance from the front flip and it falls to nearly the same category with Punk having the slight advantage.


> The Nakajima miscues you're discussing are kinda vague. I can remember one during a strike exchange that was kinda weird, but again...I'm not saying the match was perfect. Even THAT strike still connected and still looked painful. That is probably the 'obvious reversal' you referred to. I certainly factored that one into my rating, even if I think it was pretty minor, considering the strike still landed pretty solid. If there was more than that one, and the big one at the end (discussed below) I would love to know about it.


21:30. I believe there was another one but doesn't come to the dome. Still that makes it blatantly obvious that he was suppose to dodge. Then again, compared to your logic, isn't Punk's GTS(To the ribs) or the cross body considered minor?


> *
> If you bothered to read my original review*, you would have noted that I did, indeed, take that big last move into consideration, but the more I watch it, the more I think that it WAS actually done on purpose that way. That was actually my biggest complaint about the match, which I don't really mind so much, now. I have never seen Suzuki execute that move before or since, so I'm not really sure what it was SUPPOSED to look like.


Yes because I'm going to through a few hundred pages just to read your review :no: There was also a miscue at the end where Nakajima is clearly waiting for Suzuki after he misses the Deathroll(Which confuses me as he used it in the beginning as if it wasn't a finisher). The move is suppose to be a backdrop turned into a neckbreaker btw so shouldn't it be a botch? For the same "botches" Nakajima/Suzuki had, how come you rated it more than Cena/Punk or how come you didn't rate it the same? Seems really strange that a match that has the same as if not worst falls then the other gets a higher rating even though they are more obvious.


----------



## lewieG

I just watched that Suzuki vs Nakajima match, it was pretty awesome, a great match. And I'm just wondering, when did Nakajima start wearing those pants instead of the blue trunks/kickpads he used to wear? And did he do it with a change in his gimmick or was it just him changing his gear? Bit of a random question.


----------



## Nervosa

Caponex75 said:


> No. I'm ignoring it because it's dumb and repetitive to argue with you when it is the same stuff we are arguing about for five pages. After awhile, it gets really freaking boring and uneventful.


It's only the same stuff because I'm using logic to show examples and you just stop discussing points when I've overturned them. I did have a lot of new stuff in my last post, most important of which comparing Davey/Edwards to ACTUAL MMA style matvhes, how how ridiculous it is for you to compare the two. 



> It's still a legit complaint if you are rating a match ****1/2(Which falls in classic territory for me) and all of the other is not debatable or is irrelevant to my question.


I think it was excellent action, marred by some execution problems. I still think it was a classic, and was good enough that the errors only brought it down to ****1/2. 

The rest of what I was saying in that paragraph WAS relevant, because it is a big deal that I didn't say the match was 5 stars. The fact that I knocked it down a 1/2 star can more than make up for your complaints.



> :lmao Fo Realz? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_fZiBvrsds 12:42. Suzuki didn't come close to it and it was a major spot in the match....EVEN IF YOU WEREN'T LOOKING FOR IT. Fans even hit a dead silence about it. Compare that to CM Punk not having proper balance from the front flip and it falls to nearly the same category with Punk having the slight advantage.


I wouldn't call it a major spot at all. Just some out-of-ring beatdown; no storyline importance. Suzuki did come close....in all actuality, he DID hit it. Like I said, its like a chair shot where someone gets their hands up: still a lot of impact. The crowd went dead because its Japan dude. They often go quiet after a big spot. 

How is that like Punk? Suzuki hit the rail: maybe not on the top, but still hit it. Punk had intended to land on his feet, and missed. Suzuki/Nakajima did what they were supposed to do, Punk completely flopped. Monumental difference. 




> 21:30. I believe there was another one but doesn't come to the dome. Still that makes it blatantly obvious that he was suppose to dodge. Then again, compared to your logic, isn't Punk's GTS(To the ribs) or the cross body considered minor?


Yeah, that's the one I meant. Still a decent looking shot to me. 

The difference here is that its completely believable that Suzuki executed what he was trying properly. We ALL knew what Punk was trying, and he did it wrong. Once again, you compare things that are completely different. 




> Yes because I'm going to through a few hundred pages just to read your review :no: There was also a miscue at the end where Nakajima is clearly waiting for Suzuki after he misses the Deathroll(Which confuses me as he used it in the beginning as if it wasn't a finisher). The move is suppose to be a backdrop turned into a neckbreaker btw so shouldn't it be a botch? *For the same "botches" Nakajima/Suzuki had, how come you rated it more than Cena/Punk or how come you didn't rate it the same? Seems really strange that a match that has the same as if not worst falls then the other gets a higher rating even though they are more obvious.*




Yes, I would think if you were going to go through the trouble pick apart my rating of a match, botch by botch, in such great detail, you would at least bother to figure out if I marked off the same flaws you did. That would have at least kept yourself from looking like an idiot for calling me out on not doing something that I did.

The missed Deathroll is not big deal. It's hard to see, but Suzuki quickly hits a forearm shiver with his left arm, and then follows through with his right before hitting the big move. There's a slight delay, but nothing more than 'o shit, I missed.'

The 'early Deathroll' is just you misunderstanding how Nakajima's moveset has worked since 2009's big change. The Deathroll is always a calf-kick, as opposed to all of Nakajima's other kicks that mostly connect with his foot. The calf kick if different enough from the rest of his kicks that he consistently needs to line it up and jump quite a bit higher to nail it, hence why it is a finisher and the back-heel is not. The early one connected 100% with his heel, not his calf. They are completely different moves. He always does the heel kick early and the calf kick as a finisher...and has for years. 

You say the move was supposed to end up like a neckbreaker, and if you can find a clip of Suzuki doing that move on youtube, I'll cave. But it looks similar to Marufuji's new neck-dumping move, where it isn't a neckbreaker as much as a dumping side brainbuster. The more I look at it, the more I think it was hit the way it was suppose to. Again, if you have an example of KoSu doing it the way you say, I'll cave, but I haven't seen it, so I don't know that isn't what he intended. 

Same if not worst falls? More obvious botches than Punk/Cena? What a joke: let's put those ridiculously unfounded sentences to the test;

I'll let the Punk botching the bulldog cancel out the guardrail spot. Both were early, unimportant spots that still connected, but just not cleanly. 

The '21:30' sequence can cancel the botched powerbomb spot of Cena/Punk. Both were big counters that didn't quite land correctly. Again, Punk's was way, way more obvious, but you're an old friend, so I'll give you a favor.

That STILL leaves the botched crossbody that actually INJURED Cena. Get that....bad enough that it INJURED HIS OPPONENT. That's one unaccounted for.

It STILL leaves Punk landing on his ass after the FU, obviously fluffing a MAJOR counter. That's two.

And It still leaves Punk botching his own finishing move. that's three major botches that Suzuki/Nakajima can't cancel. That makes three.

If the action in both matches is equal (and I would contend the action in Nakajima/Suzuki was much better) then that's three MAJOR botches in Punk where nothing comparably bad happened in the GHC match. That's at LEAST a 1/2* difference, right there. 

If you can find a video that proves to me the big head drop is a move that Suzuki did NOT mean to hit that way, then I'll let you say it cancels the GTS botch. Even without that one, that's two more botches, and big ones. Punk/Cena was almost a botchfest, Suzuki/Nakajima has a few minor errors. Easily the difference between ****1/2 and **** even.


EDIT:



lewieG said:


> I just watched that Suzuki vs Nakajima match, it was pretty awesome, a great match. And I'm just wondering, when did Nakajima start wearing those pants instead of the blue trunks/kickpads he used to wear? And did he do it with a change in his gimmick or was it just him changing his gear? Bit of a random question.


Glad you enjoyed it. The attire change for Nakajima is relatively new...perhaps sometimes around the new year. I think I read an interview about how Nakajima was done just being 'the next prodigy' and was ready to take his place among the best wrestlers in the world, sparking the slightly more aggressive persona and wierd, hobo-like attire.


----------



## jawbreaker

The 12:42 spot was in no way a botch. Nakajima was clearly pushing Suzuki into the rail, not trying to drop him on it. He hit the side, and it looked nasty.

Anyway, I think looking at specific botches in Suzuki/Nakajima and Cena/Punk is missing the point. I loved Suzuki/Nakajima because it had phenomenal storytelling, a solid character dynamic, and great action. Cena/Punk was not as good on all three counts. It earned a lot back on crowd heat and drama, but Nakajima/Suzuki was a much cleaner match that also required much less suspension of disbelief. You don't need to count up botches to figure that out.


----------



## 777

I've seen a lot of talk about the botches in the Punk/Cena match. Am I the only one who clearly saw and heard them communicating with each other on several occasions?
Still loved the contest overall, but I don't do snowflakes. Liked Christian/Orton at OTL more.


----------



## topper1

AbismoNegro777 said:


> I've seen a lot of talk about the botches in the Punk/Cena match. Am I the only one who clearly saw and heard them communicating with each other on several occasions?
> Still loved the contest overall, but I don't do snowflakes. Liked Christian/Orton at OTL more.


I notice the wrestlers talking to each other in every single match.


----------



## FITZ

If you look for it you can find it in almost every single match. It's a lot harder to really notice when at least one guy has long hair or a mask but I would imagine with Cena and Punk it would be pretty easy to pick out.


----------



## flag sabbath

They had a major conference off the first side headlock, leading to Cena ducking Punk's kick.

Far worse than all the botches / flaws / whatever was Cena's abysmal STf in which it's flagrantly obvious no pressure was being applied to Punk's neck whatsoever.

Still, an immensely entertaining match that will go down as a classic no matter how many hours & words folks want to waste arguing otherwise.


----------



## Bubz

Yeah, I don't think there is anyone who will say that it won't be remebered for years.

Oh, and I am just glad someone else doesn't like Tanahashi lol, I did really enjoy his match with Goto though, but mostly for Goto.

*KOW vs Morishima and Taniguchi (NOAH European Navigation) ****-****1/4*
This was a great tag team battle. I wouldn't agree with it being the King's best match ever though.

The action was pretty great for the most part, but it had a few sloppy moments. There was too many lariats for my taste, and only one of them actually looked good (Morishima's on Hero). Saying that though, some of the exchanges were amazing, mostly involving Hero or Claudio trying to take down Morishima. The spot were Claudio went for the Ricola Bomb on Morishima was unbelievable.

I also watched Tozawa/SHINGO which I really didn't like at all. It just seemed so incoherant all the way through. I like Tozawa but he really annoyed me in this match and SHINGO didn't do much for me either. Some of the spots were cool such as the suicide dive into the DVD and the German on the apron, but for the most part I really couldn't get into this at all.


----------



## 777

topper1 said:


> I notice the wrestlers talking to each other in every single match.


I 'usually' don't notice, or try not to, but I don't know if the cameraman/editing team messed up or not but it was painfully obvious in this match, to the point where it lost it's sense of suspended belief for me. At that moment there was no longer any doubt that the whole deal was a work, which in turn took away from the drama of the match.
Botches can add to the realism of a contest, while catching them talking like this does the opposite.

Sidenote - Seemed like Punk was calling the shots out there.


----------



## Bubz

AbismoNegro777 said:


> I 'usually' don't notice, or try not to, but I don't know if the cameraman/editing team messed up or not but it was painfully obvious in this match, to the point where it lost it's sense of suspended belief for me. At that moment there was no longer any doubt that the whole deal was a work, which in turn took away from the drama of the match.
> Botches can add to the realism of a contest, while catching them talking like this does the opposite.
> 
> Sidenote - Seemed like Punk was calling the shots out there.


I honestly didn't notice.

And that would be because Punk is A BOSS!


----------



## Nervosa

bubz123 said:


> Yeah, I don't think there is anyone who will say that it won't be remebered for years.
> 
> Oh, and I am just glad someone else doesn't like Tanahashi lol, I did really enjoy his match with Goto though, but mostly for Goto.


YAY TANA-HATE-SHI! I cannot STAND him. You're right: Goto was the best thing about the match. Maybe I'm being a little hard on the match, but I just don't think I could tolerate the crap Tanahashi does if it was anyone else, so why should he get a break?



AbismoNegro777 said:


> I've seen a lot of talk about the botches in the Punk/Cena match. Am I the only one who clearly saw and heard them communicating with each other on several occasions?
> Still loved the contest overall, but I don't do snowflakes. Liked Christian/Orton at OTL more.





TaylorFitz said:


> If you look for it you can find it in almost every single match. It's a lot harder to really notice when at least one guy has long hair or a mask but I would imagine with Cena and Punk it would be pretty easy to pick out.


Taylor's right....its not too hard to find. That's sometimes why I like the Japanese vs. American matches where it isn't so noticeable.

It was really bad in the Punk/Cena match, espeically during the headlock. Cena's voice is just so 'boomy' that I feel like its pretty difficult to miss. I could have mentioned that in my review, but I wasn't sure if it was just me. Glad it wasn't. 

AbismoNegro....I'm glad you liked Orton/Christian from OTL more. So did I.



flag sabbath said:


> Far worse than all the botches / flaws / whatever was Cena's abysmal STf in which it's flagrantly obvious no pressure was being applied to Punk's neck whatsoever.


You know, I guess it it is because I've never really seen Cena apply this CORRECTLY...I guess I just never make a big deal out of it not wrenching the neck. People tap out to it so much, even though its NOT applied properly, that I guess I let it slide. I shouldn't, but I do.



jawbreaker said:


> The 12:42 spot was in no way a botch. Nakajima was clearly pushing Suzuki into the rail, not trying to drop him on it. He hit the side, and it looked nasty.
> 
> Anyway, I think looking at specific botches in Suzuki/Nakajima and Cena/Punk is missing the point. I loved Suzuki/Nakajima because it had phenomenal storytelling, a solid character dynamic, and great action. Cena/Punk was not as good on all three counts. It earned a lot back on crowd heat and drama, but Nakajima/Suzuki was a much cleaner match that also required much less suspension of disbelief. You don't need to count up botches to figure that out.


This post is awesome! I love your analysis of the guardrail spot. I didn't even consider that they MEANT to hit it that way. I'm glad someone else agrees that it was still a really nasty spot.

I'm sorry you didn't like the botch-for-botch comparison, but Capone was saying Cena/and Punk was the much cleaner match, and that the botches were less obvious, and I wanted to make it clear, case-by-case, that his statement was just straight false. No...I didn't NEED to count up botches....but sometimes Capone doesn't pay attention unless you lay it all out for him. Even then... 

Also, I agree that even if both matches were clean, I like Nakajima/Suzuki's story, character work, and action much more, as well. Its just a bonus that Suzuki/Nakajima was way, way cleaner, as well.


----------



## antoniomare007

*John Cena vs Rey Mysterio - Monday Night RAW 25/7/2011*

Very fun face vs face match. I liked the "cat and mouse" feel. Post match was something else, I bet Sephy lost his mind when Cult Of Personality hit (I know I did ).


----------



## Rickey

Yeah Cena/Rey was fun.


----------



## rafz

After another rewatch, I definitely cannot give the full five stars to Punk/Cena, all those flaws mentioned here really hurt a bit a match, and all could be avoided, wasn't some high risk maneuvers or something like that, but still is my MOTY for all the reasons I said before, it's ****3/4 to me.


----------



## Bubz

Cena/Rey was an amazing tv match. Cena was so good in this, just like he was against Punk. How anyone can still slate Cena is beyond me.

Post match made me mark out more than I did at MITB. Punk is GOD!


----------



## geraldinhio

I can safely say I havn't marked out more in years than when Punk came out to Cult Of Personality .

*Rey Mysterio vs John Cena WWE RAW * - Awesome TV match . Mysterio was fucking awesome in this match , not taking anything away from Cena's great preformance though . A great Power vs Speed match . Mysterio's leg kicks were sick and great to see the leg work being brought in later in the match . Wrestled at a very good pace , some really good storytelling , nice fluid action with some great counters . 

Best Raw match i'v seen in quite some time . ****+ Punk coming out to Living Colour was an automatic *****


----------



## ddog121

John Cena v. Rey Mysterio **** Awesome TV Match.


----------



## Bubz

I would honestly go **** for Cena/Rey aswell. Everything they did just looked so good.


----------



## ddog121

Mysterio was amazing last night, I gave Mysterio v. Miz ***1/2 too.


----------



## peachchaos

I have no idea what ya'll still see in Mysterio. He received no pop for his second entrance, probably because nobody wanted to see him as champion and especially because nobody wanted to see him wrestle twice on one show.

vs. Miz ***
vs. Cena ***1/2 TOPS


----------



## seancarleton77

I think WWE is the current front runner for Wrestling Promotion of the Year.


----------



## KingKicks

***1/2 for Cena/Rey. My current WWE TV MOTY.

Edit: Holy crap, my name is red :side:


----------



## Nervosa

rafz said:


> After another rewatch, I definitely cannot give the full five stars to Punk/Cena, all those flaws mentioned here really hurt a bit a match, and all could be avoided, wasn't some high risk maneuvers or something like that, but still is my MOTY for all the reasons I said before, it's ****3/4 to me.


Big time tip of the hat, for this.


----------



## -Mystery-

peachchaos said:


> I have no idea what ya'll still see in Mysterio. He received no pop for his second entrance, probably because nobody wanted to see him as champion and especially because nobody wanted to see him wrestle twice on one show.
> 
> vs. Miz ***
> vs. Cena ***1/2 TOPS


How can anyone not wanna see Rey wrestle twice on a show? Despite his many knee problems, he's still one of the company's best workers.


----------



## Fighter Daron

A problem with Mysterio?, one of the best workers in the history of the business, the ultimate underdog?, I think I'd never read a thing like this.

He put Miz in his best match of all his fucking career, no doubt about it.


----------



## Violent By Design

^ That honor goes to American Dragon and don't you forget it!



By the way, Miz is ranked #1 in PWI 500 list. Granted the list has always sucked, anyone wanna whine and complain with me? .


----------



## Vader

It is in kayfabe, surely there can't be many others who had a better run during the dates it is calculated? Bearing in mind that the WWE is the be-all and end-all for PWI, or so it would appear.


----------



## Generation-Now

Violent By Design said:


> ^ That honor goes to American Dragon and don't you forget it!
> 
> 
> 
> By the way, Miz is ranked #1 in PWI 500 list. Granted the list has always sucked, anyone wanna whine and complain with me? .


Money in the Bank in July. US Champion from June to September. WWE Champion from November to May. Won in the Main Event of WrestleMania. 

You seriously think his win is unwarranted?


----------



## jawbreaker

There was another thread about this, and just like I said there, Sugiura should be #1 by PWI standards, but since it's PWI, they have to put a WWE guy up top, and this year it's Miz, who probably best fits by their standards.


----------



## Fighter Daron

jawbreaker said:


> There was another thread about this, and just like I said there, Sugiura should be #1 by PWI standards, but since it's PWI, they have to put a WWE guy up top, and this year it's Miz, who probably best fits by their standards.


A WWE guy?, last year AJ was the top guy.


----------



## jawbreaker

For the first time since what, 1997?


----------



## sXsCanadianFansXs

John Cena vs. Rey Mysterio ***1/2

You guys are going a little crazy on your ratings for this bout. It was a fast-paced, exciting match with a few cool counters. It was nice to see Cena motivated and Mysterio bust out some new stuff but it's nowhere near **** level.


----------



## antoniomare007

*Daisuke Sekimoto, Shinobu & Yugi Okabayashi vs. Yoshihito Sasaki, Shinya Ishikawa & Ryuichi Kawakami - Big Japan 6/27/11*

Strong BJ for the motherfucking win!!!! Holy crap this was all kinds of awesome. Shinobu and Yoshihito bring the HATE~!, Daisuke & Okabayashi the muscle and Ishikawa & Kawakami the resilience. Action packed 6 man tag with a couple of GREAT nearfalls. And all of this in just 11 minutes


----------



## Violent By Design

Generation-Now said:


> Money in the Bank in July. US Champion from June to September. WWE Champion from November to May. Won in the Main Event of WrestleMania.
> 
> You seriously think his win is unwarranted?


Well, yeah.... he isn't the best wrestler in the world ~.~. I don't really get hte point of mentioning his accolades. Sure he's won stuff, but has he had any notable moments? His title defenses compose of what, beating Jerry Lawler a few times and fighting John Cena in what shouldn't have been the main event at WM? In fact, I don't even see how you could rate him above CM Punk or Cena. Much less guys from NJPW, ROH and CMLL. Granted, PWI is always very bias toward WWE.


----------



## flag sabbath

antoniomare007 said:


> *Daisuke Sekimoto, Shinobu & Yugi Okabayashi vs. Yoshihito Sasaki, Shinya Ishikawa & Ryuichi Kawakami - Big Japan 6/27/11*
> 
> Strong BJ for the motherfucking win!!!! Holy crap this was all kinds of awesome. Shinobu and Yoshihito bring the HATE~!, Daisuke & Okabayashi the muscle and Ishikawa & Kawakami the resilience. Action packed 6 man tag with a couple of GREAT nearfalls. And all of this in just 11 minutes


Loved this match - cheers for the heads-up Antonio. Shinobu & Sasaki's ringside altercations were totally convincing, Okabayashi broke out some super-heavy artillery & the late near-fall break-up by Sekimoto was the icing on the cake. Hot crowd & wildly enthusiastic commentary too.


----------



## Generation-Now

Violent By Design said:


> Well, yeah.... *he isn't the best wrestler in the world* ~.~. I don't really get hte point of mentioning his accolades. Sure he's won stuff, but has he had any notable moments? His title defenses compose of what, beating Jerry Lawler a few times and fighting John Cena in what shouldn't have been the main event at WM? In fact, I don't even see how you could rate him above CM Punk or Cena. Much less guys from NJPW, ROH and CMLL. Granted, PWI is always very bias toward WWE.


lol, you clearly don't understand how the PWI works then. 

Considering the time frame (June '10 to June '11) Miz did a LOT more than Punk, and Cena, for that matter.


----------



## vanmunde

Really enjoyed Cena/Rey. Not having much of a history with Cena, I gotta say his last two matches make it seem like he's actually pretty awesome, although I realize there are grounds for legitimate grievances I am thankfully not privy to. Aside from all the shit and piss humor.


----------



## Bubz

vanmunde said:


> Really enjoyed Cena/Rey. Not having much of a history with Cena, I gotta say his last two matches make it seem like he's actually pretty awesome, although I realize there are grounds for legitimate grievances I am thankfully not privy to. Aside from all the shit and piss humor.


Cena is great. I have been saying it for years. Given the opportunity, Cena can hang in the ring, no question.


----------



## seancarleton77

bubz123 said:


> Cena is great. I have been saying it for years. Given the opportunity, Cena can hang in the ring, no question.


Exactly. He's not Lou Thesz, neither was Steve Austin. He's John Cena and like it or not he's an excellent worker.


----------



## Cactus

seancarleton77 said:


> Exactly. He's not Lou Thesz, neither was Steve Austin. He's John Cena and like it or not he's an excellent worker.


Very true. He's last two matches have been fantastic. He's really matured his in-ring style as of late.

Oh, while I'm here.

*Cactus Clothesline's 2011 MoTYs*
1. CM Punk vs John Cena (WWE 7/17) *******
2. Davey Richards vs Eddie Edwards (ROH 6/26) *****3/4*
3. Christian vs Randy Orton (WWE 5/22) *****1/2*
4. Zema Ion vs Austin Aries vs Low Ki vs Jack Evans (TNA 7/10) *****1/4*
5. Triple H vs The Undertaker (WWE 4/3) ******


----------



## jawbreaker

I don't think "is capable of having a great match" is a good criteria for calling someone a good wrestler. Cena's certainly not bad, but he has flat-out bad matches often enough that I'm not going to call him great.


----------



## Fighter Daron

jawbreaker said:


> I don't think "is capable of having a great match" is a good criteria for calling someone a good wrestler. Cena's certainly not bad, but he has flat-out bad matches often enough that I'm not going to call him great.


Yeah, he has had bad matches with Khali, Lashley, Orton, Sheamus(in his beginings) and I can't remember anymore. But, yeah, you are right, those guys are top techinicians and great workers.

Otherwise, he has had terrible fights against Michaels, Batista, Edge or Umaga. So terrible fights.


----------



## jawbreaker

What's your point? You're naming a few matches where he was good against not-so-good workers. Okay? He's had bad matches with Chris Jericho, The Miz, Triple H, Batista, Big Show, and more. He's definitely capable of putting on a good match, I'm not arguing that. I feel similarly towards him as I do towards Christopher Daniels: he'll have good, even great matches from time to time, he's not embarrassingly bad, and he's a great guy to have in the company, but as a whole the quality of his body of work is out of line with his reputation.


----------



## New Blood

I think John Cena is great for the style he works with. Is he a "workrate" wrestler that people here seem to love? Far from it but I honestly don't think workrate is the most important feature in a wrestler. As long as I'm entertained, I'm happy.


----------



## sXsCanadianFansXs

I thought Cena`s reputation was one of a bad wrestler. The internet`s confusing me.

Cena is great at getting crowd reactions but he isn`t really a diverse worker. 2006 - 2010 Cena is absolutely fucking dreadful as he gets beaten down, does wacky selling, hulks up and wins the match with uninspired, bland offense.

Granted, there were a few matches where he stepped out of his comfort zone (vs. Lashley at GAB for example), but even his WM encounter against the Miz in the MAIN-EVENT of Wrestlemania sucked. Miz isn`t a phenomenal worker by any means but there was no indication that Cena was putting in any extra effort than he would a Raw house show in front of 3500 people. His match with Punk was the turning point (in my eyes) to a more motivated Cena as he got called out by Chavo Guerrero and then had a pretty good match with Mysterio afterward. I think most of the hatred comes from his character (the ultra babyface who can do no wrong), his awful humor ruining serious storylines and his general awkwardness and refusal to change up his boring formula in the ring.

The fact that there are quite a few guys who are better wrestlers but may never reach that level only adds to the frustration. I`m talking about the Zigglers, Daniel Bryans and Christians of the WWE. With all of that said, I have to say WWE`s usual main-event scene has stepped it up lately (Orton vs. Christian series, Sheamus vs. anyone, Cena vs. Punk) and I hope they can continue that momentum into next year`s WM.

But please, don`t say John Cena is an excellent wrestler. He`s not even really... good. He`s a slightly above average performer in the ring who appeals to younger kids and women which happen to be WWE`s target demographic right now. Thankfully he`s at a point in his career (5 or 6 years too late) where he can be `carried` by good wrestlers like Punk and Mysterio.


----------



## flag sabbath

Slightly disappointed by Dragon Gate's Kobe PPV - some great action was let down by a painfully standoffish crowd.

Shingo & Tozawa battered each other senseless & Shingo sold like crazy to get Tozawa over, but the fans only came alive for the closing moments. With a more enthusiastic audience, this would've been serious MOTY material.

The Twin Gate title match was also fantastic - particularly the last 5-10 mins - but the lame post-match angle only served to make Junction Three look like idiots. It doesn't help that Blood Warriors aren't over as heels in the slightest.


----------



## Fighter Daron

jawbreaker said:


> What's your point? You're naming a few matches where he was good against not-so-good workers. Okay? He's had bad matches with Chris Jericho, The Miz, Triple H, Batista, Big Show, and more. He's definitely capable of putting on a good match, I'm not arguing that. I feel similarly towards him as I do towards Christopher Daniels: he'll have good, even great matches from time to time, he's not embarrassingly bad, and he's a great guy to have in the company, but as a whole the quality of his body of work is out of line with his reputation.


You had to tell yourself: Was that sarcasm?

Ok, well, The Miz is shit, the matches with Jericho were not bad, but Ok, nor good, Big Show is shit too. And WFF?, bad matches with Batista and Triple H? when? where?


----------



## jawbreaker

Every Cena/Batista match I've seen was garbage. The Summerslam one stands out in my mind as particularly bad and I think they wrestled at a WrestleMania and it it wasn't any good. Can't remember ever liking a Cena/Triple H match either.

Like I said, listing guys he's wrestled does nothing to prove any point. He rarely has good matches with bad wrestlers (the Lashley one is an outlier). He's capable of having a good match with a superior wrestler, but for somebody to actually be considered a good wrestler in my opinion, they have to be able to work to a similar level no matter who their opponent is.


----------



## Fighter Daron

The thing is that you are the only one I know who doesn't like his Batista's encounters.

And that is the clue that cena is a good wrestler, not everyone is capable of making a huge match with the animal.


----------



## jawbreaker

For the third or fourth time, _that alone does not make him a "good" wrestler_. You're ignoring most of what I'm saying and continuing to just list matches.

Adam Pearce and Brent Albright once had a ****1/2 match. That doesn't make either of them great.

If you go through every 15+ minute match Cena has had in the last five years, I'd be willing to bet that at least a third of them were average or worse. Yes, he's had fantastic matches. But his miss rate is unacceptably high. That is my point.


----------



## Nervosa

Fighter Daron said:


> The thing is that you are the only one I know who doesn't like his Batista's encounters.


Hate Hate Hate the Batista matches. Plodding, awful, bullshit.


----------



## Concrete

I think Cena can have a great match every once in a while but being that he never shows that off kind of proves that he isn't the guy who is really helping the match become great. But people enjoy him so it's not like he is going anywhere. He is the ultimate face to the WWE Universe and the ultimate heel to most others. It works for me.


----------



## New Blood

At least we can all agree that Black Terry rules all.


----------



## Caponex75

HHH vs. John Cena at Night of Champions was the $#it.


----------



## Kid Kamikaze10

New Blood said:


> At least we can all agree that Black Terry rules all.


Totally agree.


----------



## lewieG

I thought the WM26 Batista vs Cena match was pretty good considering that they usually don't work well against other big guys.


----------



## Bubz

Batista/Cena at Mania 26 was decent. I guess it was just ALOT better than people thought it would be.


----------



## Concrete

Wrestling needs to pick up this summer because when we should be battling each other on how great a match is we are instead talking about John Cena.


----------



## Bubz

enlightenedone9 said:


> Wrestling needs to pick up this summer because *when we should be battling each other on how great a match is* we are instead talking about John Cena.


You must not have read through the last 40 or so pages lol.


----------



## smitlick

ROH - World's Greatest
Strong/KOW vs Richards/WGTT
****-****1/4

ROH - 9th Anniversary Show
Christopher Daniels vs Eddie Edwards
****1/4


----------



## Chismo

*WWE MITB *

John Cena vs. CM Punk *****3/4*

You know why this shit rocked? Because it was simple story telling. It was about two guys fighting for the belt, it was about two guys exchanging moves and strategies in the middle of the ring. It was so different and fresh for WWE. Simple story was centered about the title, not about car accidents, cheating wives, authority figures (until the end, lol), stables, betrayals, or something. It felt so serious and emotional. Again, so fresh for WWE. MOTY for N. America so far, better than Taker/Hunter, Edwards/Daniels III and IV, Briscoes/ANX and Daniels/Generico.


----------



## Kapik1337

Danshoku Dino vs. Bob Sapp *****

A masterpiece.


----------



## Bubz

JoeRulz said:


> *WWE MITB *
> 
> John Cena vs. CM Punk *****3/4*
> 
> You know why this shit rocked? Because it was simple story telling. It was about two guys fighting for the belt, it was about two guys exchanging moves and strategies in the middle of the ring. It was so different and fresh for WWE. Simple story was centered about the title, not about car accidents, cheating wives, authority figures (until the end, lol), stables, betrayals, or something. It felt so serious and emotional. Again, so fresh for WWE. MOTY for N. America so far, better than Taker/Hunter, Edwards/Daniels III and IV, Briscoes/ANX and Daniels/Generico.


Completely agree.


----------



## jawbreaker

*American Wolves vs. Kings of Wrestling, ROH Revolution: USA*

Started out great, with the Kings dominating Edwards. But the quality dipped noticeably as it went on. Edwards' selling was halfhearted, lots of the Davey/Claudio exchanges were sloppy, and they didn't really do a good job of getting the crowd into it. The Wolves got very little offense in that wasn't their standard spots as well, and nothing that felt like it was setting up for their finishing submissions, which made it weak when they were applied for what could have been a couple of great nearfalls. The match was really well booked, and there was some very good stuff in there (mostly Hero/Edwards exchanges), but for whatever reason it didn't feel like everyone involved was trying their hardest.

****3/4*


----------



## Bubz

I kind of agree about Kings/Wolves. I LOVED it on first watch, but on the second watch I really questioned why I liked it so much, I did the exact same thing with the Worlds Greatest 6 man match, had them both at ****12 at first and then after another watch I have them both at around ***3/4-****.


----------



## Caponex75

I thought the Richards/WGTT vs. Strong/KOW was nothing compared to the HDNET finale match. That being said, I still love the heck out of Wolves/KOW II. Match just doesn't bore me and there really isn't a dull moment I believe.


I need some Tag MOTYCs btw. I haven't seen that much in tags this year and can do for some recommendations.


----------



## antoniomare007

go watch Sekimoto & Okabayashi matches, they are tag team of the year IMO.


----------



## Caponex75

Just any match? Nothing specific? I watched their match against Ryoto Hama and ??? and it was a pretty great match. Didn't really get the connection and didn't feel it was a MOTY but still a great match though.


----------



## antoniomare007

I'll say their 4 best matches this year are

vs Manabu Soya & Seiya Sanada - 06.02.2011
vs Manabu Soya & Seiya Sanada - 21.03.2011
vs Yoshihito Sasaki & Shinya Iskikawa - 05.05.2011
& Shinobu vs Yoshihito Sasaki, Shinya Ishikawa & Ryuichi Kawakami - 27.07.2011


----------



## Bubz

Sekimoto/Okabayashi vs Soya/Sanada 1 is an epic tag match, found out after it was clipped lol, but there is no way of telling during it (atleast I didn't notice). I couldn't believe it when I found out.

I wasn't a big a fan of their other 2 matches. People rave about their third match so I would check that out (unless it's the one you have seen).

KOW/Wolves is great, even though I lowered it on second watch.

KOW vs Morishima and someone else (fucking hell i'm shit with remembering names) from the NOAH european tour in the UK. Awesome tag match. Morishima on his game is so good. Seabs had it as the best tag this year iirc.

The O'Reilly/Cole vs LDRS tag match from wxw 16 carat is awesome aswell and probably my tag match of the year so far.


----------



## antoniomare007

nah, he watched the Hamma & Soya tag. Which was fun as hell (best use of that ball of fat Hamma I've ever seen) but not as good as the other 4 I posted, imo.

and yeah, the LDRS tag at the 16 Carat Gold was awesome too.

still haven't seen the European Navigation matches (Morishima was tagging with Taniguchi btw).


----------



## Bubz

antoniomare007 said:


> nah, he watched the Hamma & Soya tag. Which was fun as hell (best use of that ball of fat Hamma I've ever seen) but not as good as the other 4 I posted, imo.
> 
> and yeah, the LDRS tag at the 16 Carat Gold was awesome too.
> 
> still haven't seen the European Navigation matches (Morishima was tagging with *Taniguchi* btw).


That's it lol, my mind just went blank. First time I saw him and wasn't too impressed to be honest.


----------



## Fighter Daron

Taniguchi is a good wrestler, his match with Go at the 03/05 NOAH show was awesome.


----------



## smitlick

Tag Matches from 2011 I'd recommend (haven't seen a lot of stuff)

- Masato Yoshino & PAC vs Ricochet & Naruki Doi (DGUSA United Philly)
- Roderick Strong/Kings of Wrestling vs Davey Richards/WGTT (ROH World's Greatest)
- Naomichi Marufuji/Atsushi Aoki vs Atsushi Kotoge/Daisuke Harada (NOAH 15/1)


----------



## Bruce L

Caponex75 said:


> I need some Tag MOTYCs btw. I haven't seen that much in tags this year and can do for some recommendations.


Your mileage may vary on this, but personally, I was hugely impressed by Bad Intentions vs. NO LIMIT from 5/3. Bad Intentions vs. Tanahashi & Goto from 7/3 was pretty awesome as well.


----------



## Bubz

I need to get around to watching some of these Dragon Gate tags with the likes of Ricochet and Pac. I saw those loser revives captains fall matches or whatever the hell they are called, and really didn't like them at all. There is something about DG that really doesn't click with me.


----------



## Corey

Caponex75 said:


> I need some Tag MOTYCs btw. I haven't seen that much in tags this year and can do for some recommendations.


PAC & Ricochet vs. Chuck Taylor & Akira Tozawa - DGUSA Open The Southern Gate
Elimination Match: Johnny Gargano, Rich Swann, & Masato Yoshino vs. Austin Aries, CIMA, & Brodie Lee - DGUSA Enter The Dragon 2011

LDRS of the New School vs. Adam Cole & Kyle O'Reilly - wXw Kreuzzug ZXI

El Generico & Ricochet vs. The Young Bucks - PWG Card Subject to Change III


----------



## Ali Dia

I'd like to suggest Cole and O'reilly v KOW from HTCS night 2. For a 9 min match it was insane


----------



## Bubz

Yep, KOW vs ColeReilly is probably my second favorite match of that weekend.


----------



## flag sabbath

Caponex75 said:


> I need some Tag MOTYCs btw. I haven't seen that much in tags this year and can do for some recommendations.


No MOTYCs, but for consistently entertaining, hi-octane doubles action, DDT4 is the show.


----------



## jawbreaker

I wouldn't argue if someone wanted to give RockNES Monsters vs. American Wolves four stars, but yeah, DDT4 was an awesome show with no super great matches.

Speaking of PWG...

*Willie Mack vs. Roderick Strong, PWG Card Subject to Change III*

Great storytelling here based off the character dynamics. Strong has been great all year and this was another great showing from him, playing the veteran who respects Willie, but also wants to remind him that he's Roderick Fucking Strong. For the story to work, Willie Mack would have to bring it, and he did in spades. The first ringside brawl segment is probably the key point in this match. Strong is dominating, but then Willie Mack hits a huge chop and the crowd goes crazy, as do Excalibur and Rick Knox on commentary. Strong isn't taking that and fires back harder, ending with a backbreaker on a chair. Strong doesn't go for a pin, though, because he wants to fully remind Willie Mack that while Willie is good, he's not Roderick Strong. 

This story builds and builds to a fairly solid, though not mind-blowing finishing stretch that underlines the story: Willie Mack can hit hard and do some cool stuff in the ring, and he had Strong worried a few times, but ultimately Strong was always able to get the upper hand, and the match didn't end until Roderick wanted it to end. The super-hot Reseda crowd added a ton to this match, as did Excalibur, who proved why he is the best commentator in the business: he doesn't just call moves, he reacts to what's going on in the match. He very effectively got the story across, and not just using his words, but his tone of voice and general attitude as well.

*****1/4*


----------



## Fighter Daron

Best tag matches in 2011: 

- PWG: DDT4 2011: DDT 4 Final Match: Nightmare Violence Connection Vs Young Bucks
- NJPW: Fantastica Mania Night 2: IWGP Jr. Heavyweight Tag Team Championship: Kota Ibushi & Kenny Omega Vs Prince Devitt & Ryusuke Taguchi 
- PWG: DDT4 2011: DDT 4 Semi-Final Match: Nightmare Violence Connection Vs Kings of Wrestling 
- ROH: Tag Title Classic II: ROH World Tag Team Championship: Kings of Wrestling Vs American Wolves 
- Kensuke Office: Take The Dream 2011: Katsuhiko Nakajima & Kengo Mashimo Vs BxB Hulk & Fujita Jr Hayato 
- DGUSA: United Philly: Masato Yoshino & PAC Vs Ricochet & Naruki Doi
- TNA: Genesis: TNA World Tag Team Championship: Motorcity Machineguns Vs Beer Money 
- NJPW: Wrestling Dontaku 2011: IWGP Jr. Heavyweight Tag Team Championship: Prince Devitt & Ryusuke Taguchi Vs Davey Richards & Rocky Romero 
- NJPW: Wrestling Dontaku 2011: IWGP Tag Team Championship: Giant Bernard & Karl Anderson Vs Yujiro Takahashi & Tetsuya Naito 
- ROH: 9 Anniversary Show: ROH World Tag Team Championship Nº: 1 Contendership: The Briscoes Vs Wrestling's Greatest Tag Team
- NOAH: Great Voyage in Fukuoka 2011: Jun Akiyama & Naomichi Marufuji Vs Kensuke Sasaki & Katsuhiko Nakajima 
- DGUSA: United Philly: Johnny Gargano & Chuck Taylor Vs CIMA & Dragon Kid 
- NJPW: New Japan Alive: IWGP Tag Team Championship: BAD INTENTIONS Vs Blue Justice 
- PWG: Kurt Russelmania II: The Cutler Brothers Vs Rockness Monsters Vs Fightin' Taylors Vs The Young Bucks 
- ROH: SoCal Showdown II: Wrestling's Greatest Tag Team Vs Kings of Wrestling


----------



## Bubz

I wasn't a fan of Mack vs Strong at all, I just never got into it. I did like the story of Strong showing Willie what was what aspect of it though. I really like Willie Mack, but he just seemed off in this for some reason, most of his offence looked sloppy. I suppose it doesn't help that I just haven't been able to get into Strong matches recently either.

Gotta agree with everything you said about Excalibur though, guy is epic, and sometimes he actually adds alot to a match, while most other commentators take away from it.


----------



## Chismo

The Briscoes vs The ANX from Atlanta is ROH's MOTY (*****1/2*). Absolutely amazing clash.


----------



## Kid Kamikaze10

jawbreaker said:


> I wouldn't argue if someone wanted to give RockNES Monsters vs. American Wolves four stars, but yeah, DDT4 was an awesome show with no super great matches.
> 
> Speaking of PWG...
> 
> *Willie Mack vs. Roderick Strong, PWG Card Subject to Change III*
> 
> Great storytelling here based off the character dynamics. Strong has been great all year and this was another great showing from him, playing the veteran who respects Willie, but also wants to remind him that he's Roderick Fucking Strong. For the story to work, Willie Mack would have to bring it, and he did in spades. The first ringside brawl segment is probably the key point in this match. Strong is dominating, but then Willie Mack hits a huge chop and the crowd goes crazy, as do Excalibur and Rick Knox on commentary. Strong isn't taking that and fires back harder, ending with a backbreaker on a chair. Strong doesn't go for a pin, though, because he wants to fully remind Willie Mack that while Willie is good, he's not Roderick Strong.
> 
> This story builds and builds to a fairly solid, though not mind-blowing finishing stretch that underlines the story: Willie Mack can hit hard and do some cool stuff in the ring, and he had Strong worried a few times, but ultimately Strong was always able to get the upper hand, and the match didn't end until Roderick wanted it to end. The super-hot Reseda crowd added a ton to this match, as did Excalibur, who proved why he is the best commentator in the business: he doesn't just call moves, he reacts to what's going on in the match. He very effectively got the story across, and not just using his words, but his tone of voice and general attitude as well.
> 
> *****1/4*


Just saw the Mack/Strong match, and I agree. 

I knew Strong was going to win, I just didn't expect to be so entertained. Then, I am a Willie Mack mark, so I'm slightly biased.

And yeah, Excalibur is my favorite commentator in wrestling right now.


----------



## smitlick

PWG - DDT4 
The Young Bucks vs Akira Tozawa & Kevin Steen
****


----------



## Noah Mark

If there are any Lucha fans here this is definately a match of the year candidate:

***** Navarro vs Solar I-1/8/11 AAA...This was somewhat clipped but still didnt detract it from being a technical masterpiece. I never get tired of watching both guys.****1/4.


----------



## Cactus

JoeRulz said:


> The Briscoes vs The ANX from Atlanta is ROH's MOTY (*****1/2*). Absolutely amazing clash.


ROH's MOTY only being at ****1/2 and it's not Richards vs Edwards? I'm curious what you rated that match.


----------



## Chismo

Cactus Clothesline said:


> ROH's MOTY only being at ****1/2 and it's not Richards vs Edwards? I'm curious what you rated that match.


I had Davey/Eddie at ***3/4 on my first watch, but after two more times, I have it at ****1/4. Daniels/Generico (BITW), Daniels/Edwards (HTCS) and The Briscoes/The ANX (HTCS) are better. Haven't seen Revolution: Canada and Supercard Of Honor.


----------



## jawbreaker

My ROH MOTY is still Strong/Briscoe (****). And I've seen everything through Revolution USA.


----------



## peachchaos

lol


----------



## WOOLCOCK

I don't see what's so funny about that. Everyone will rate a match however they want based on what they look for in a match.


----------



## jawbreaker

There's a fuckton of ***1/2-***3/4 matches, yeah, but nothing has cracked **** except that one. I do need to rewatch Cole/O'Reilly vs. the Briscoes though, because that was the only other one I considered giving ****.

Also going to throw a note out there that Roderick Strong is probably my WOTY so far.


----------



## Bubz

Strong/Briscoe probably has the best storytelling out of any ROH match this year. Jay is seriously underrated as a singles wrestler. If the crowd wasn't so shit that would probably be near the top of my ROH matches, if not the top. At one point when Jay was making his comeback and the crowd was dead he said something along the lines of 'Come on people! Shit!' at the crowd, and it got them into it a bit more, but it was too late. Jay is great at getting the crowd into things and I would much rather him just be a top singles guy than tagging with Mark. I suppose that would leave Mark with nothing to do, and the Briscoes are great as heels so it's fine for now. I'm probably in the minority that thinks that though.


----------



## jawbreaker

I wouldn't say Jay is a great singles guy, but he's certainly capable of pulling out a great performance when given the right role.


----------



## The Gargano

i was live for that match and it was really amazing, i was not expecting it to be as great as it was, jay did such a great job in that match, as well as roddy, they did a great job making me believe that jay had a chance of winning even though i knew there was no chance of that happening


----------



## Fighter Daron

Jay/Strong was a great match, but nothing special.


----------



## Bubz

*KENTA vs Zack Sabre Jr - NOAH European Navigation Night 2 ****1/2*

Wow. I didn't expect this at all. Bloody great match right here. KENTA plays the veteran who has no respect at all for Zack and he kicks the fuck out of him. Zack plays the underdog very well who is always looking to lock in the cross armbreaker out of nowhere to catch KENTA off guard. KENTA does a pretty good job of selling the arm here, and Zack is relentless with his awesome armbreaker attempts. This guy is a great submission wrestler, at one point he has KENTA locked in an already cool looking leg submission, but proceeds to apply an armbar at the same time and it looks painful as hell. Zack shows that he can almost go strike for strike with KENTA aswell and there are some awesome exchanges including a great one leading up to the dragon suplex. I probably enjoyed this more than Zack/Davey, Zack/Hero and KENTA/Hero.


----------



## seabs

*So I go away for a week and when I get back I've got like 20 new Puro shows on DVD and another 20 odd on my HD to get through, not to mention G1 popping up straight away.*

*Bad Intentions vs Hiroshi Tanahashi & Hirooki Goto - IWGP Tag Team Championships - NJPW 03.07.2011*
_Watched this before I went away so I haven't got a whole to say about it other than it's great. Bernard and Anderson looked awesome. There's some awesome body work on Tanahashi and then a great finish._

******

*Satoshi Kojima vs Minoru Suzuki - NJPW 01.08.2011*
_These two had awesome chemistry on the PPV tag a few months back and they kept it going again here. MiSu looked the best I've seen him in years and he just played an incredible cocky heel working up babyface sympathy for Kojima. Kojima's so much more enjoyable now working as a babyface in New Japan too. There's some awesome arm work too although it's kinda irrelevant by time the finish comes but it doesn't stop it being a great match, just prevents it from being any better. _

******

*Hiroshi Tanahashi vs Yuji Nagata - NJPW 01.08.2011*
_I preferred the MiSu/Kojima match but this was really good too. Nagata is amazing and Tanahashi working the leg was really good. Seemed much more focused than their previous match this year and the body work wasn't forgotten about as much. Finish was a little sudden and anti climatic. Nagata's post match victory celebration may be the greatest thing I have ever seen happen after a PPV main event too. He even sells the leg again after because he's a fucking KING._

****3/4*


----------



## antoniomare007

go watch the Strong BJ 6/27/11 tag damnit!

and you better like it


----------



## Bubz

Seabs (or anyone else that has seen it), how was Strong/Susuki?


----------



## seabs

antoniomare007 said:


> go watch the Strong BJ 6/27/11 tag damnit!
> 
> and you better like it


*That's probably the match I'm most excited to see along with Sekimoto vs Hayato.*


bubz123 said:


> Seabs (or anyone else that has seen it), how was Strong/Susuki?


*Probably get around to watching it tommorow.*

*PAC vs Dragon Kid - Dragon Gate 12.05.2011*
_This is basically PAC and Kid running through their movesets in front of a hot K-Hall crowd. Naturally it ends up being great. It's only a little over 10 minutes so I was fine with it being spotty because with these two the spots are that good it's not an issue and they didn't overdo it either._

****3/4*

*Maasaki Mochizuki vs SHINGO - Dragon Gate 12.05.2011*
_Both guys really bring the intensity to this match and combined with the hot crowd it equals greatness. The hard hitting nature of the match plays really well into the finish too so it doesn't just end up being nonsense and then the finishing stretch which is all that you need to see. There's some great arm work in there by Mochizuki too._

******

*There's another incredible CIMA/Ricochet/Kid vs Yoshino/PAC/Hulk 6 man which was fucking incredible but yet again got clipped to death. They showed about 11 minutes of 22 minute match which looked beyond great. First they do it with the titles vs unit defense and now again. Fucking GAORA TV and Infinity. I can honestly say if it had been shown in full it probably would have been top 10 of the year material.*


----------



## antoniomare007

Seabs said:


> *That's probably the match I'm most excited to see along with Sekimoto vs Hayato.*


The Hayato match was cool but could have been way better in a place like Korakuen. Hayato did a good job as the underdog but the crowd wasn't that into it. It was only 13 minutes long too, so that kinda suck. I really want a rematch


----------



## Fighter Daron

Of fuck, that Hayato/Sekimoto has the rights to be a MOTYC.


----------



## Merc_With_A_Mouth

Kevin Steen & Akira Tozawa vs. El Generico & Ricochet ****1/2 - ****3/4 PWG All Star Weekend 8 Night 1
Absolutely wild match. This is the first time that Steen and Generico have interacted since Final Battle 2010 and they made it heated. Some absolutely wild sequences, especially towards the end.

Really great show as a whole. Here are what I'd say my ratings are for the remainder of the show
Kevin Steen/Willie Mack ***1/4+
The Dynasty/Brian Cage & Ryan Taylor ***1/4 - ***1/2
Chuck Taylor/Kenny King **1/2
RockNES Monsters/Young Bucks ***3/4
Cutlers/Austin Aries & Roderick Strong *** (maybe a bit higher)
Alex Shelley/Eddie Edwards ****
Steen & Tozawa/Generico & Ricochet ****1/2 - ****3/4
Chris Hero/Claudio Castagnoli ****1/4


----------



## Cactus

What would you guys rate Kobashi's return match?


----------



## kwjr86

Merc_With_A_Mouth said:


> Kevin Steen & Akira Tozawa vs. El Generico & Ricochet ****1/2 - ****3/4 PWG All Star Weekend 8 Night 1
> Absolutely wild match. This is the first time that Steen and Generico have interacted since Final Battle 2010 and they made it heated. Some absolutely wild sequences, especially towards the end.
> 
> Really great show as a whole. Here are what I'd say my ratings are for the remainder of the show
> Kevin Steen/Willie Mack ***1/4+
> The Dynasty/Brian Cage & Ryan Taylor ***1/4 - ***1/2
> Chuck Taylor/Kenny King **1/2
> RockNES Monsters/Young Bucks ***3/4
> Cutlers/Austin Aries & Roderick Strong *** (maybe a bit higher)
> Alex Shelley/Eddie Edwards ****
> Steen & Tozawa/Generico & Ricochet ****1/2 - ****3/4
> Chris Hero/Claudio Castagnoli ****1/4


Wow. Can not wait to see this.


----------



## seabs

antoniomare007 said:


> The Hayato match was cool but could have been way better in a place like Korakuen. Hayato did a good job as the underdog but the crowd wasn't that into it. It was only 13 minutes long too, so that kinda suck. I really want a rematch


*In fairness at least 90% of matches would be better in K.Hall*

*Akira Tozawa, CIMA, Naruki Doi, Yasushi Kanda & BxB Hulk vs SHINGO, YAMATO, Masato Yoshino, Maasaki Mochizuki & Gamma - Dragon Gate 08.06.2011*
_Starts off with Hulk and Gamma turning and then Tozawa returning which in turn all sets up this 10 man. Hulk's turn is awesome, as is SHINGO's bloody head afterwards all wrapped up like a fucking war hero. First part of match is good up until Gamma gets out of his FIP segment and from there it's just incredible. Non stop all out action and it's awesome. SHINGO is a fucking god too. I'm glad he got injured and had to take some time out because he's so fresh and exciting since he returned. Insane 2nd half of the match and add in the storyline advancement with it too and you've got one of the best DG matches this year. Never though I would have said this at the start of the year but in terms of mixing great wrestling with strong storylines Dragon Gate may be my promotion of the year atm._

*****1/4*


----------



## seancarleton77

Cactus Clothesline said:


> What would you guys rate Kobashi's return match?


I am of the position that Kobashi should stay retired, because I don't want to see him crippled. Still I say the match was ***+ maybe 3 and a half.

From that same show Bernard & Anderson vs. Morishima & Yoshie was a solid 4 stars, if not more. Sugiura vs. Sasaki was probably 4 and a quarter, to 4 and a half stars.


----------



## seabs

bubz123 said:


> Seabs (or anyone else that has seen it), how was Strong/Susuki?


*Was prety bad imo actually. Loads of messed up spots and zero chemistry. It had hope when Strong started destroying Suzuki's back and he sold it like a champ but it only lasted a few minutes and went nowhere before they went back to pointless strikes and moves with no focus.*

*Forgot to mention the Royal Rumble on the 24/7 DDT show for anyone who's looking for straight up fun from a wrestling match.*

*SHINGO vs BxB Hulk - Dragon Gate 08.07.2011*
_Loads of hate and intensity plus a hot K.Hall crowd equals greatness. Hulk's so much better as a heel for me and he's actually really good when he stops prancing around doing flashy moves and just fights. Similar match to Tozawa vs Hulk from DGUSA in many ways. SHINGO is on fucking fire since his return and atm I'd say he's the best wrestler going. Both guys do a great job of really getting the hate over and they fucking destroy each other. Hulk takes an insane looking bump off the ring post and SHINGO hits one of the bestest and craziest lariats I've seen in a long time. Sadly it's Infinity so it's gets clipped down. Of an 18 minute match they show about 11 of them but it felt like it could only have been better than worse if they'd shown more._

******

*Prince Devitt vs Low Ki - NJPW/JAPW 14.05.2011*
_Clip job means I can't really fully rate but hopefully JAPW release the shows before the end of the year. It's largely reliant on big moves to make the crowd pop but in a good sense. Ki is fantastic. Crowd is really hot for it but the audio makes it sound like there's a lot of noise but it's coming from the building next door. There's about 5-6 minutes clipped out but I imagine in full it'd be a solid **** match as what was shown for 11 or so minutes was really fun._


----------



## Noah Mark

Another classic for all you Lucha fans.

***** Navarro/Trauma I/Trauma II vs Pirata Morgan/Barba Rojo/El Hijo Del Pirata Morgan-4/14/11 ****1/4


----------



## seancarleton77

G1 Climax XXI: Kojima vs. Suzuki = ****


----------



## Cactus

*PWG Kurt RusselReunion II: PWG World Championship: Claudio Castagnoli (c) vs El Generico*
I just got around to watching this. I'm 7 months late on this, I know. Excalibur and Colt Cabana are on commentary and they do an excellent job. They make jokes about the wrestler but still treat them seriously. They joke about both wrestler nationalities but they get serious in the later stages of the match.

The first portion of the match has El Generico getting his leg worked on after Claudio catches him during a vaulting body press and tilt-a-whirl slams him into the ring apron. After this, the match is brought to a much slower pace, but the crowd still eats it up. They chant 'ole' at El Generico and don't seem to get bored at all. El Generico's 'hulk-up' is teased a few times but it's stopped by his damaged knee getting in the way. El Generico doesn't get to completely turn the match and dominate Castagnoli, but he gets a good amount of signature moves in, including the big boot and brainbuster. 

The moment that really made this match stand out is the part when Castagnoli and Generico fight on the turnbuckle. They tease Generico's Brainbuster and Claudio's Avalanche Ricola Bomb. Neither man hits their move and the fight on the top rope ends with Generico frankensteining Claudio of the second rope. The action continues to go back and forth and we see many near falls. The match ends when Claudio locks Generico in a submission hold on his injured leg, making The Generic Luchador tap out. 

The match only lasted 20 minutes, and over half that time is the build-up to the ending, so it does feel that they could of went on a tad bit longer. But the action we saw was great, the commentary was excellent and the crowd is hot. It's not a 5 star classic, but it's a definite MOTYC. I'll give this one ****1/4, but it could of easily got to the ****1/2-****3/4 range if they added on 5 minutes to the ending.

*****1/4*

*AJPW 20/06/2011: Minoru vs Kaz Hayashi vs Shuji Kondo*
Nothing much to say about this one. I'm not a huge follower of current AJPW, but I decided to give this one a watch as I've never seen a 3 way match in any major Japanese promotion before.

The match was entertaining, but it's by no means a MOTYC. It feels like your typical 3 way match in any indy fed. You get some entertaining spots that involve all three men but some of them just come of stupid and unrealistic. They really have no place in a promotion like AJPW. It was a total spotfest, but it was quite stiff and that's always a welcome addition to any match. 

All in all, an entertaining match. It only lasted 10 minutes and there's really was no story to it, just spot after spot. That doesn't make this a bad match as it was enjoyable to watch but it stops it from becoming a classic.

*****


----------



## smitlick

wXw - 16 Carat Gold 2011 Day 2
Davey Richards vs Zack Sabre Jr
****1/4


----------



## mikytarsend

NOAH 25/05
KENTA/Kanemaru vs Suzuki/Aoki ****+


----------



## Cactus

*ROH Honor Takes Center Stage Chapter 2: The Briscoe Brothers vs All Night Express *
Quite a bloodbath here, but the first 10 minutes bored me to death. It picked up in the end, but the damage had already been done. Sick bladejobs, an awesome ending and a boring build-up gives this match a rating of ***1/4.

****1/4*


----------



## jawbreaker

Big huge Nervosa-style review time.

*Hiroshi Tanahashi vs. Hirooki Goto, NJPW 6/18*

The entrances feel absolutely awesome. Goto looks determined, almost desperate, while Tanahashi is a smug, cocky douche. The crowd loves him though, and he loves them too. Immediately when the bell rings, he starts posing. Goto is taking things more seriously, which shows when Tanahashi lazily floats over into a headlock after tripping Goto and Goto fights out easily.

There's a standoff after that seems kinda early and unnecessary, but it gets worked back into another nice headlock spot where Goto fights with all his strength to break a Tanahashi headlock, but Tanahashi keeps it on and then gets this smug look on his face. In the same sequence, he fucking flips his hair while holding the headlock. God damn.

Goto eventually breaks out and takes over with a shoulder block. Tanahashi goes for a basic arm wringer thing, but does it nonchalantly and gets elbowed in the face by Goto. They exchange strikes in the corner like so many other wrestling matches, but here Tanahashi's strikes are noticeably weaker than Goto's and Goto reacts by switching places and hitting some sick elbows and a nasty kick to the midsection.

Tanahashi gets the advantage back, though, and after some kind of intense strikes and a big dragon screw and a dive off the apron, goes for a crowd reaction again. This starts a pretty good leg workover segment, which ends because Tanahashi once again plays to the crowd, this time by skinning the cat, which leaves him off guard for a nice Goto lariat to start what is I guess a back workover. Tanahashi tries to fight back with a strike battle but Goto once again owns him. Tanahashi fights back with some flashy offense, including a second rope swanton for a nearfall that nobody buys, but Tanahashi still acts mildly frustrated when Goto kicks out.

Then they do an interesting rope running spot where Tanahashi is always a step ahead of Goto, but Goto obliterates him with another lariat after Tanahashi does a weak kick to the midsection. Goto gets another brief control with some nasty strikes, but Tanahashi shakes most of them off and cockily calls for a strike battle. Neither man really gets an advantage in the elbow strikes, but afterwards Tanahashi connects with a fierce right hand. Now he's taking this shit seriously.

Tanahashi then catches a Goto kick and turns it into a dragon screw, which starts a legwork segment that, while brief, actually means something, unlike the first legwork segment. Goto makes the ropes after a decently long Cloverleaf, but he's actually starting to sell the knee now, unlike before. Then he hits a series of backdrop suplexes, some elbows to the neck, and then a second rope neckbreaker. Goto gets a sick sunset bomb for just a nearfall, but Tanahashi's smug cockiness is all gone.

Tanahashi then goes for a bridging German, but can't hold the bridge because he took a whole bunch of stuff to the neck. He sells it much harder here than before, which actually makes sense because a bridge would easily be the most painful thing you could do on an injured neck in a wrestling match. Tanahashi goes back to the knee again and then hits a sling blade and attempts a High Fly Flow because why not I guess. It misses, and Goto his a brutal lariat to the back of the neck. Tanahashi is desperate now and tries to end the match however he can, but Goto turns a victory roll attempt into what looks like a muscular bomb/piledriver combination*.

After a brief break while the ref checks on Tanahashi, Goto hits another northern lariat and a fireman's carry neckbreaker over his knee off the second rope for a nearfall that the crowd buys big time. After a semi-pointless slap exchange, Goto headbutts Tanahashi and hits his new finisher for one of the best nearfalls I've seen all year. Goto then tries his old finisher, but Tanahashi counters, kicks the injured knee, does a weak headbutt, and the single worst lariat I've ever seen. Ouch.

Tanahashi then hits a couple dragon suplexes, the second of which he maneuvers into a bridging pin... despite the neck injury he sold earlier. At least he didn't straight up bridge either of the Dragons. Sling blade, two High Fly Flows, and the match is over.

* - It looks like a botch, but I'm inclined to think it was intentional after replaying it several times, so I'll treat it like it was.

First off, let me say that I really liked the story they told in the early going, and even up to the finish. Goto as the bitter veteran who can't win the big one and Tanahashi as the cocky champ worked so well and made the match so much better when Tanahashi started taking it seriously. The desperation rollups were a great touch as well. The only real problem I had was with the finish, which was weak as shit. I don't really have a problem with Tanahashi winning, it makes for a good story, but everything he did made Goto look weak. First by hitting that awful lariat, then by not selling the neck on the Dragons, and finally by actually scoring the pin with some weak-looking offense. Despite the flaws, I still have this one in MOTYC territory, but it's not taking the top spot.

*****1/4*

1. Kotaro Suzuki vs. Katsuhiko Nakajima, NOAH 3/5, ****1/2
2. Daisuke Sekimoto vs. Ikuto Hidaka, ZERO1 1/1, ****1/4
3. Claudio Castagnoli vs. El Generico, PWG Kurt RussellReunion II, ****1/4
4. Hiroshi Tanahashi vs. Hirooki Goto, NJPW Dominion 6/18, ****1/4
5. Roderick Strong vs. Willie Mack, PWG Card Subject to Change III, ****1/4
6. John Cena vs. CM Punk, WWE Money in the Bank, ****
7. Roderick Strong vs. Jay Briscoe, ROH Only the Strong Survive, ****

Need to watch:

Sekimoto/Okabayashi vs. Sanada/Soya, AJPW 3/21
Eddie Edwards vs. Chris Hero, ROH Revolution: Canada
Christian vs. Randy Orton, WWE Over the Limit
Cole/O'Reilly vs. LDRS of the New School, wXw 16 Carat Gold


----------



## antoniomare007

Completely agree with you on Tana/Goto. It was one of the few times were Tanahashi's comeback pissed me off. And I loved the fact that even if there were botches, one could make the case that they were part of the story of the match (or they did a brilliant job incorporating them on the fly).


I think you will appreciate the 3/27 BJ vs AJ tag more if you watch at least 1 previous match between those teams.


----------



## jawbreaker

I've seen the two previous ones. Loved the first, but can't really rate it due to clipping. I could go as high as ****3/4 or as low as ***3/4 depending on how good or bad the missing minutes are. Second was around ***1/2.


----------



## Bubz

I definitely agree about Tana/Goto, although I have it at ****1/2. It was pretty great apart from a few things all to do with Tanahashi. I'm not a fan of his at all, and I always tend to get annoyed with his matches because of some of the stupid shit he does, but this match was fine until the very end. Goto is awesome though.


----------



## Cactus

I'll watch the Tana/Goto match later. I've seen the entrances and it was fucking epic.


----------



## dk4life

El Generico & Ricochet vs. Kevin Steen & Akira Tozawa - ****1/2

My match of the year so far, freaking LOVED this match, a couple spots that I didn't think were possible and Tozawa just keeps growing on me only match and the heat between Generico and Steen was hot, oh I loved this match! about to go and give it a re watch before Hardcore Justice


----------



## Bubz

I haven't seen that tag yet, but I watched Steen/Willie Mack from the start of the show and it was great (better than Mack/Strong IMO), around ***1/2 - ***3/4. What was even better than the match though was Steen and all the things he did involving Generico. First of all he saw a guy in the front row with a Generico picture, he took the picture off him and looked at it with pure hatred, then after the match he told Mack that he just made Generico's night even harder, he then signaled to the guy with the picture that he was going to tear Generico in to pieces and he took a Generico mask from the merch table, spit on it and threw it into the crowd. Thank god they are doing this instead of just ignoring the ROH storyline. I saw the start of the tag match and Joey Ryan and Excalibur even talk about the Final Battle match briefly. Very excited to see the match now. Steen is awesome.


----------



## Cactus

*PWG All Star Weekend Night 1: El Generico & Ricochet vs. Kevin Steen & Akira Tozawa*: Christ. I would go 5 stars on this but it felt like it was missing something. Not sure what though. It continued the story between Steen and Generico. If I rated this on purely spots it would be an easy 5 stars. Next to Punk/Cena, this is my MOTY. *****3/4*


----------



## seabs

*Eddie Edwards vs Alex Shelley - PWG All Star Weekend 8 Night 1*
_Straight up great match. Not a whole lot to it other than two great wrestlers going out there and doing just that and making a damn fine job of it. Eddie showing a bit more personality by mocking the guy wearing a Big Show shirt who shouted boring atm them was refreshing too._

******

*Kevin Steen & Akira Tozawa vs El Generico & Ricochet - PWG All Star Weekend 8 Night 1*
_Not as crazy about it as everyone else so far seems to be. Might have been a case of me setting my expectations too high for it but I felt like it could have realisticly been even better than it was. The Steen/Generico hate was there although I don't think it ever really escalated like it could have done. There's still some fucking crazy spots in there and typically the last few minutes are insanely great. Great match but not something I can see making my top 20 come the end of the year. Don't want to sound too critical of it btw because I did think it was great but I was hoping for more and felt there was room for them to have made it crazier._

*****1/4+*

*Kevin Steen & Akira Tozawa vs RockNES Monsters - PWG All Star Weekend 8 Night 2*
_This had fucking everything that I love about PWG. Wacky commentary lines, Steen turned up to the highest volume, drunken idiots scrambling for their life to get out of the way a tope, the ability to put guys over and an insane crowd who can create awesome moments like the post match. I wouldn't be suprised in the least to find out I'm way fonder of it than just about everyone else but fuck it. Goodtime looked awesome and Yuma wasn't annoying when he wasn't taking a beating which is good I guess. Tozawa has another singles match coming up so they do a great job of keeping his work minimal and it helps in that you just get all of Tozawa's best bits so the crowd ends up popping everytime he gets in there. Steen is absolutely incredible in this tormenting poor Goodtime and especially Yuma. Carear best performance from Steen I thought. The package piledriver on the apron was fucking nuts and they teased it really nicely earlier on too which only made the actual spot itself even better. Yuma not reviving post match when Steen was putting them over was awesome and it wasn't a case of Steen having a great match with two lower card guys, making them good and then trying to convince the crowd that they were good. RockNES looked the best they have so far here and totally deserved the post match appraisal. Speaking of post match the Tozawa stuff was awesome. Tons of emotion and the Bucks interrupting it to cheap shot them was soooooooo glorious. Those fucking douchebags. Jesus they rock as heels in Reseda. I thought this was better than the NVC the night before btw._

*****1/2*

*El Generico vs Eddie Edwards - PWG All Star Weekend 8 Night 2*
_I wasn't really expecting a great match out of this. Thought it would be a good solid match but holy cow they pulled this one out of the bag. Similar to Generico/Claudio in many ways. Leg work again on Generico is the focus of the match and Generico is a fucking god selling it, especially during his own offence again. Comes into play for the finish too which makes it all worthwile and even better. Felt like it was just a strong **** match and then they start kicking each other in the face and the match goes from "yeah that was really good" to "shit, this is actually fucking awesome". The last 5 or so minutes was fucking fantastic and they never overstep the boundaries and do too much or have the guy who's winning kick out of a stupid amount of stuff. That michinoku driver on the apron too. HOLY SHIT._

*****1/2*

*Young Bucks vs Austin Aries & Roderick Strong - PWG World Tag Team Championships - PWG All Star Weekend 8 Night 2*
_Any match that starts with Aries hitting a tope is destined for greatness and that's exactly what they achieved. I normally hate crowd brawling to start matches before they get back to the ring and work a normal match but it was awesome in this case. The Bucks were incredible heels stooging around all over the place early on to get the crowd hot and make the babyfaces look immense. They've got that goofy shit tied down perfectly too. Their heat segment is sublime too. I fucking adore 80's tags and they'd fit in so cosily doing their heel shtick in that era. Nice story too with their cockiness being their downfall on multiple occasions. It led to the end of Strong's FIP segment which was a great touch and Nick getting cocky going for the last chancery on Aries only for Strong to catch him in the strong hold was awesome too. Finish might have seemed cheap and a bit disappointing to some but it suited the Bucks perfectly to get away with a sneaky pin. Aries looked awesome and by far the best he's looked in way too long._

*****1/4+*

*Akira Tozawa vs Chris Hero - PWG All Star Weekend 8 Night 2*
_Akira Tozawa. Jesus it's insane how far he's come since his first PWG appearance last year. The match tells an awesome little story of Tozawa's progression from being the guy who got murdered vs Hero last year to Tozawa now being able to hang with Hero. The opening headlock sequence was awesome and really got this story over. Then you get Tozawa's signature dives and Hero blocking the second with an elbow was really shocking and an amazing transition spot which leads to Tozawa taking an ass kicking again. The match does an incredible job of getting over Tozawa's fighting spirit. Say what you want about Excalibur's commentary and how wacky it might be at times but he did a perfect job of getting the story over. Hero's methodical beatdown of him was brilliant and they threw in some great teases of a Tozawa comeback too. Surprisingly the crowd are really hot for everything that Tozawa does and there's an awesome atmosphere throughout it. Only negative I'd say is that like with the 1st encounter it could done with some more time. The post match stuff more than made up for it maybe being a little short though. DON'T FUCKING TELL ME YOU CAN'T CREATE EMOTION ON THE INDIES! Tozawa's farewell speech fucking rocked._

*****1/2*

*Claudio Castagnoli vs Low Ki - PWG World Championship - PWG All Star Weekend 8 Night 2*
_4 insanely great matches on the same night probably didn't help these two and having to follow Tozawa's farewell really put them at a disadvantage from the off but they managed to have a really good match all the same. Crowd wasn't really all that hot for it but at the same time they didn't really do a whole lot to make them pop huge. Ki looked great although Claudio didn't look quite as super as he has done recently. I thought it was really good myself but I can see people liking it more than me, especially Ki marks. Match started off great with Ki coming out on the front foot but once Claudio gained control it kinda lost it's early momentum until the finish which really prevented it being any better than it ended up being._

****3/4*


----------



## Bubz

Night 2 sounds like an amazing show, maybe show of the year.


----------



## jawbreaker

The RockNES Monsters are awesome. Them vs. the NVC was probably my most anticipated match on the weekend. Glad to see it turned out well because the guy whose live report I read didn't love it.


----------



## Cactus

*PWG All Star Weekend Night 2: PWG Championship: Claudio Castagnoli (c) vs Low Ki*

****1/2*


----------



## Bubz

*PWG ASW8 Night 1*

*Alex Shelley vs Eddie Edwards *****
Just a really fun match to watch, i'm a huge Shelley fan and I think he is rather underrated as a singles wrestler these days. Eddie having some fun with the crowd was awesome.

*Steen/Tozawa vs Generico/Ricochet ****1/2*
Fantastic match. Tag match of the year for me (I've yet to see night 2 though). Some of the spots are bloody amazing, Steen reverses the brainbuster into the package piledriver in the single greatest reversal I have ever seen. Tozawa is awesome at everything he does, ever since his first match with Hero he has been on fire. The Steen and Generico exchanges were really great, although I thought they might show a little more hate to one another, the hate was there and they were very intense and stiff with eachother. Not a big Ricochet fan but he was great here apart from one spot he missed on Tozawa (the mounsault kick thingy) and the more I see of him the more he grows on me, he was acting very cocky at the start, and even tried to punk Steen out, so Steen just fucked him up with stiff strikes and a crazy ass backbreaker which was awesome. That led to a great wrokover of Ricochet with both members of NVC just beating the living shit out of him. Generico was obviously awesome aswell as he always is, but Steen or Tozawa were the stars. Steen is just an amazing all around wrestler and I would honestly have no trouble calling him one of the best pro wrestlers in the world right now. The postmatch stuff was great aswell.

*Hero vs Claudio ***3/4*
This was a very very hard one to rate. This stars off amazingly well, some great chain wrestling and mat wrestling from both guys, they both prove here that they are two of the best wrestlers, if not the best, in the world. Very sportsman like to start off aswell and they really looked like they were just out there to wrestle eachother and see who the best man was, Claudio even considers an uppercut at one point but decides otherwise and just puts Hero is a headlock. They then pull out some crazy armdrags that I have never seen either man do, and it was a sight to behold Hero pulling out things like Quack usually does. Claudio then gains control and works on Hero's arm with some painful looking offence, the way this was going it seemed like the type of match I would absolutely love.

Now then, earlier in the match, Claudio goes for a springboard uppercut off the second rope and slips, he then gets a bit mad and kicks the rope out of frustration. Then about 5 - 10 minutes later he goes for a suicide dive, but as he runs into the ropes, as if just to take the fucking piss out of Clausio, the top rope just completely breaks. Guys from the back run in to try and fix it, but Claudio is furious and just totally takes the entire top rope off and we are left with just the bottom and middle rope. This was really weird from that point on. Both guys do their best to make it work, and they both, especially Hero, do a pretty good job of it but it's obvious that it tkaes away all the flow out of the match and both guys seem a bit out of it. Claudio keeps going to do his spots off the ropes but just kinf of runs to the ropes, stops, and then rund back and it all seems a bit odd. They carry on though for another 20 minutes or so without the top rope but the croed is completely dead by now.

What an absolute shame. This match was going to be amazing, I could tell. These guys didn't deserve that to happen as they were putting on an amazing display of wrestling. Hero's promo afterwards if great, he basically says that he has spent ages training to face Claudio at this event and what happens, 'The god damn rope breaks? What kind of bush-league bullshit is that?'. Again, it really is a shame that it happened.


----------



## seabs

*Takashi Sugiura vs Kensuke Sasaki - NOAH 23.07.2011*
_Really hard hitting war which ties in perfectly with the finish of the match. First half of the match is great with them throwin loads of hard shots at each other. Second half however is kinda weak and stars dragging on. They could have easily cut like 5 minutes out and it would have been just as good, possibly better. Shiozaki/Nakajima was a better case of going out there and having a draw which makes both guys look equally great and if you want something similar then watch SHINGO/Mochizuki which is basically the same layout but better execution._

******

*Bad Intentions vs Takeshi Morishma & Yutaka Yoshie - NOAH 23.07.2011*
_No way should a Shima/Yoshie tag in modern NOAH be this good but this ends up being a totally unexpected awesome match. Bad Intentions are probably the best team going atm for me just ahead of KOW and Sekimoto/Okabayshi. Before they were an impressive team having good-really good matches but they've improved so much in the last 12 months and now they're legit one of the best having great matches on a more regular basis now. Normally when modern day puro tags break down into multiple tag segments I often start to lose interest. 1 because I'm such a huge fan of 80's STF and secondly because it often results in them losing focus and relying on spotty finishes. Not in this case though. Bad Intentions come out of it looking like beasts by for the most part dominating both men. I really liked how Anderson, the much smaller of the 4 guys in the match never really worked over one of the larger men for an extended period of time. Morishima looked great too and his dive fucking rocked. Goes without saying but Bernard fucking rocked too. Anderson's come on leaps and bounds lately too and he's much more than Bernard's second like he once could have been considered. Easily one of the best NOAH matches this year and not surprisingly it was reliant on outside participation._

*****+*

*The whole 23/7 show was really strong actually. The Edwards/Delirious/Sabre opener was one of the best NOAH matches all year and it only went 6-7 minutes. Sabre shouting "C'MON MATE" to Aero Star was one of the best moments of 2011 for sure. Sabre looked fucking awesome too. The Nakajima/Kajiwara vs Suzuki/Aoki tag was your basic unfocused NOAH juniors tag until a really fucking great finishing stretch between Nakajima and Suzuki. Could have done without Nakajima taking that crazy inverted DDT given the finish but other than the end sequence between them was great. Kobashi's return was underwhelming. Crowd never really did him justice and it didn't have the atmosphere of other huge Kobashi matches earlier on in NOAH. Shiozaki refusing Kobashi's first request of a tag and Akiyama refusing the fans request for a tag was really odd. In the end it was clear it was 3 old guys who aren't up to it anymore trying their best. Kobashi looked good all things considered but he still looks like an old man who shouldn't really be in there.*


----------



## mikytarsend

CIMA, Ricochet, Dragon Kid vs Shingo, Cyber Kong, Kagetora ****1/4


----------



## seancarleton77

Kenskay vs. Sugiura = ****1/4

Kojima vs. Nakamura from the G1 Night 2 = ****1/2


----------



## antoniomare007

*Alex Shelley vs Eddie Edwards - All Star Weekend Night 1*

I don't know why but I wasn't expecting much from this (had a feeling that it was going to be like Davey vs Low Ki) and was surprised at how freaking good it was. The ending was indy-rific but what the hell, this was awesome anyways.

****1/4

*Nightmare Violence Connection vs El Generico & Ricochet - All Star Weekend Night 1*

"This is INSANE!" "What the hell have we just seen, Chuck Taylor?" Those 2 sentences from Excalibur describe this match perfectly. Fucking amazing, It may end up being my match of the year....so much incredible shit that I didn't see coming.





























:faint:


----------



## Fighter Daron

seancarleton77 said:


> Kojima vs. Nakamura from the G1 Night 2 = ****1/2


One of the best match in the blocks that I've ever seen in a G1, just awesome.


----------



## antoniomare007

*El Generico vs Eddie Edwards - All Star Weekend VIII Night 2 *

On one hand we have Kevin Steen's awesome commentary (hating on Generico every chance he gets but in a non Michael Cole way) and on the other we have two great wrestlers having an outstanding match. It's amazing how much they did in "only" 20 minutes and still It didn't feel like a spotfest at all. I was surprised at how good Eddie was able to play with Generico's ultimate underdog gimmick.

****1/2

*Akira Tozawa vs Chris Hero - All Star Weekend VIII Night 2*

Awwww maaaan. I'm a sucker for "David vs Goliath" type of matches and this one was done beautifully. They told a story that not only got over in Reseda but it could have been over in Japan too. A lot of indy guys try to emulate what All Japan did in the 90's or what most Jrs do in puro nowadays, but this is maybe the first time were I saw two guys in an U.S ring show what "Fighting Spirit" is all about.

****1/2-****3/4


----------



## lewieG

PWG ASW8 Night 1 - Nightmare Violence Connection vs Genericochet: ****1/2+

The posts so far on this have summed it up, just a fucking insane match which was loads of fun, had a clear story and was great to watch. PWG MOTY so far from what I've seen.


----------



## smitlick

wXw 16 Carat Gold - Day 3
Sekimoto vs Generico - ****
LDRS vs ColeReilly - ****1/4


----------



## seabs

*Yoshihito Sasaki & Shinya Ishikawa vs Ryuichi Kawakami & Kazuki Hashimoto - BJW 27.05.2011*
_This had everything that makes Strong BJ so awesome. Intense, fast paced and insanely stiff. Sasaki's elbows are incredible and all 4 men really bring the hate and intensity to each other, especially Yoshihito. Only goes about 11 minutes and the first 3 or so minutes got clipped out but the time didn't stop this being awesome._

****3/4*

*Jun Kasai, Jaki Numazawa & Masashi Takeda vs Shinobu, Shuji Ishikawa & Takashi Sasaki - Barbed Wire Board Scramble Bunkhouse Death Match - BJW 27.05.2011*
_I don't normally care for Death matches but this has Shinobu in it and it's all centered around him. It isn't on a crazy scale of hardcore shit which helps and the barbed wire spots don't get too crazy or too constant. Poor Shinobu takes a crazy amount of punishment but keeps coming back and it's a crazy great display of fighting spirit._

****3/4*

*Shinsuke Nakamura vs Hiroyoshi Tenzan - NJPW 05.08.2011*
_Who'da thunk Tenzan would have a match this great during G1. Obviously Nakamura is the star but Tenzan shows some great fire and looks really motivated to go along with Nakamura and provide his share. Nakamura acting like a cocky little dick early on and just pissing Tenzan off which gets him fired up was glorious. Crowd as always for K.Hall shows are on fire. Finishing stretch is awesome. Nakamura fucking rocks._

*****1/4*

*Kaz Hayashi, Shuji Kondo & Minoru vs KAI, Hiroshi Yamato & BUSHI - AJPW 18.07.2011*
_Really fun 6 man juniors tag. Great little sub story early on with Minoru fucking up and constantly hitting the two more trusty partners Kaz and Kondo which leads to some unrest between them and the less familiar and less liked partner in Minoru. In the end they make up and destroy poor old BUSHI which transitions into a great little heat segment. Then it breaks down into the finishing sequence. Great little 6 man._

****3/4*

*Suwama & Masaktsu Funaki vs Seiya Sanada & Taiyo Kea - AJPW 18.07.2011*
_All Japan tags which go 25-30 minutes have no right being great buy thankfully Sanada is awesome and provides enough greatness to make up for it being so long. First he has a great FIP segment and then the last 5 minutes with him showing some great fighting spirit and just refusing to stay down was fucking awesome. Could easily have cut 5-10 minutes out after he got the first tag and it would have made the match even better._

****3/4*

*Daisuke Sekimoto, Yuji Okabayashi & Shinobu vs Yoshihito Sasaki, Shinya Ishikawa & Ryuichi Kawakami - BJW 27.06.2011*
_I fucking love strong BJ. Sasaki and Shinobu brought some insane heat in the previous tag between them and they carry it over again here with some insane hatred and some of the most believable heat between two guys I've seen in a while. Doesn't make any difference to them if they're in the ring together or not, they're just out there to hurt each other. The whole match builds up to them two getting the tag and being in there together and once it does happen they have an awesome little sequence. Just the right amount to make it great but also enough to still leave you so hungry for more. Just when you think the other 4 are out of it Sekimoto comes back in for an insane spot where he breaks Sasaki's pin up out of nowhere with a dead lift suplex. The 12/2 tag beats this one considering the time it gets there isn't many better matches out this year in the same time frame._

******


----------



## Bubz

*PWG ASW8 Night 2*

*Generation Next vs The Young Bucks ****-****1/4*
This was just a really entertaining tag match, with Young Bucks playing awesome heels and Aries and Roddy looking the best they have in ages. Roddy is so much better as a face it's ridiculous.

*Eddie Edwards vs El Generico ****1/2*
Wow, this was bloody great! They go back and forth for a while until Eddie gains control of Generico's leg and then it gets really great. This may be EE's best wrestled match! It makes his single leg crab seem so much better as a finish when he actually works over the leg like he does here. Generico is Generico so he obviously sells it really well, and the finishing stretch is awesome! This is the first time Eddie's lariat has actually looked good, and the kick exchanges are great. It ended on a leg submission aswell which made the match seem all the better. The only thing I didn't like was Eddie completely no selling the half and half suplex. Not as good as Generico/Claudio, but pretty close.

Oh and Steen was hilarious on commentary, probably my favorite guest commentator of the weekend, but most of them were very entertaining. Excalibur is the man!

Well, fuck it, I was going to save Hero/Tozawa for tomorrow but decided to just go ahead and watch it...

*Chris Hero vs Akira Tozawa ****3/4*
Match of the year right here. Yes, this was amazing. similar to their match last year but with tons more drama. This was Tozawas last match in PWG and he wants to prove he can beat Hero after losing to him 2 times (one in a tag match), and jesus does he do it. Simply put, Tozawa is amazing. Like others have said this is fighting spirit done properly and it was wonderful. I'm having a hard time not to call this match perfect but there is something that isn't there and I can't quite put my finger on it yet. Such a great but simple story of Tozawa proving himself. Hero destroys him here, even more than in their first match, but Tozawa will not die, he plays the underdog and babyface to absolute perfection, and the finishing stretch is amazing. Tozawa goes crazy towards the end after getting fired up by Hero just beating the shit out of him, and he hits about 5 saito suplex's in a row, every time more brutal than the last, usually I would say that is overkill, but this never felt like it at all, and it fit perfectly in with the story. Awesome match.

Tozawa's speech after was incredibly emotional, funny and just great. I think I speak for everyone when I say please come back Tozawa.


----------



## smitlick

ROH Defy or Deny

Claudio vs Davey ***3/4-****


----------



## seabs

*Yuji Okabayashi & Shinobu vs Yoshihito Sasaki & Kazuki Hashimoto - BJW 25.07.2011*
_YEEEEEEEEEEEEEES!!! I highly doubt anyone will be able to come up with a better sub 10 minute match than this from 2011. Everything you'd expect from Strong BJ. Sasaki and Shinobu tear it apart yet again plus Okabayashi obliterates poor Hashimoto. His chest after Yuji's beating is mandess. Okabayashi and Sasaki destroy each as well as you'd come to expect. All of this in under 10 minutes too. Only negative I'd say is the finish isn't as hot as you'd maybe come to expect and it's the only thing stopping this being a legit MOTYC. Right up there with the 27/6 and 12/2 tags for BJ MOTY. Seriously everyone (and I mean not just mare (fuck you need to get a name that's easier to abbreviate in to something short).) should check this out when they have a spare 10 minutes which lets face it is nothing._

*****1/4*

*Satoshi Kojima vs MVP - NJPW 07.08.2011*
_Kojima's insanely brilliant right now and MVP's stepped his game an incredible amount during G1 so going these two had a ton of momentum along with their nice little story together. Thankfully the match didn't disappoint either. MVP looks super motivated in New Japan and it's starting to payoff in his matches too now. Crowd are really starting to get behind him too and he's even managed to get that BALLIn elbow drop over with them after it being met with dead silence for the first few months whilst he did it. Great little story with Kojima being the vet and MVP being the protege of sorts wanting to show he could hang with Kojima and take everything he had. The chops spot in the corner with MVP unzipping his gear so he could take more punishment really got this over. Super match._

******


----------



## antoniomare007

lol, I know man. I can't remember why the hell I chose this nickname.

*Daisuke Sekimoto vs Masato Tanaka - Zero One "Fire Festival", Final Day*

On par with their previous encounters. Red hot Korakuen crowd for two beasts ramming into each other for 30 minutes (they only aired 25 though). Tanaka tries to take advantage of his hardcore experience every chance they are outside the ring...until Daisuke powerslams him through a table. From then on it's 2 stiff bastards doing everything in their power to get the W. Tanaka need to win to advance to the finals (Sekimoto can afford a draw) and goes into desperation mode after he realizes that no Sliding D or Lariat is gonna put Daisuke down.
*
Kohei Sato vs ??? (don't wanna spoil it ) - Zero One "Fire Festival" Finals*

Not a big fan of Sato, but he does throw some sick kicks. I new who won before watching so that really hurt it for me. It's still worth a watch and the last 6 minutes or so are pretty damn good.

***3/4


----------



## seancarleton77

G1 2011 scores:

Karl Anderson vs. Goto Hirooki ****3/4 - Amazing. Non stop, unpredictable, astonishing, incredible, all words that do not so this match justice. I don't think I was this excited for Punk vs. Cena. Either man could have won, this match was not even predictable in it's final seconds. Great fucking match!

Nakamura Shinsuke vs. Kojima Satoshi ****1/2

Nakamura Shinsuke vs. Tenzan Hiroyshi ****1/2

Nagata Yuji vs. Naito Tetsuya ****

Suzuki Minoru vs. La Sombra ***3/4

Giant Bernard vs. Nagata Yuji ****

MVP vs. Nakamura Shinsuke ***3/4


----------



## Cactus

*BJW 07/25/2011: *
*Yuji Okabayashi & Shinobu vs Yoshihito Sasaki & Kazuki Hashimoto*
Honestly, I have no idea who anyone in this match is. I only downloaded this match 'cause Seabs said it was great and it was only 10 minutes. I'm glad I watched it because I saw a fine 10 minute stiff-fest.
You're not going to see anything flashier than a snapmare in this match. The match mostly consisted of elbows, slaps, kicks and body slams. At times, it seems like the wrestlers are seeing who can out-stiff who. The bald fella took some nasty shots and totally no-sold them. It made him look like a legit bad-ass. If you want to see Japanese people hit each other hard and don't want to see anything too flashy, this match is for you. It's not in my MoTY list, but it's probably one of the stiffest matches I have seen this year.
****1/2*


----------



## antoniomare007

from what day is Anderson vs Goto?

Kojima vs Nakamura was very good, although I didn't liked it as much as sean or Fighter.


----------



## seabs

*Anderson/Goto was on Day 5 I think. It was a fine match but jesus christ it was nowhere near that good. Kojima/Nakamura was fine too but not MOTYC material imo.*


----------



## dj161

Just finished *Hero vs Edwards from ROH Revolution Canada*, I know I'm going a back a little bit for this one, thought it was a great match, my one major complaint though was when Eddie appeared to be out for the count the ref gave him a ten count to get to his feet, yet at the end of the match when Hero is seemingly out the ref just stops the match, just one of those little things that bugs me as surely whats good for one guy should be good for the other, still a great match though ****1/4


----------



## Fighter Daron

Seabs said:


> *Anderson/Goto was on Day 5 I think. It was a fine match but jesus christ it was nowhere near that good. Kojima/Nakamura was fine too but not MOTYC material imo.*


They had a great final sequence, the selling of Naka was simply incredible and the Boma-Ye Vs Lariat stuff was electrifying. Easily one of the best matches under 20-minutes from this year.


----------



## KingKicks

Now that I'm somewhat up to date with ROH (except for Supcard of Honor VI which I don't have), here's pretty much everything ROH I've got over ****.

*ROH Only The Strong Survive*
Roderick Strong vs. Jay Briscoe *****¼-****½*

*ROH SoCal Showdown II*
Roderick Strong vs. El Generico ******

*ROH World's Greatest*
Davey Richards, Charlie Haas and Shelton Benjamin vs. Roderick Strong and The Kings of Wrestling *****-****¼*

*ROH 9th Anniversary Show*
Christopher Daniels vs. Eddie Edwards ******

*ROH Manhattan Mayhem IV*
The Kings of Wrestling vs. Homicide and Hernandez ******
Christopher Daniels vs. Davey Richards *****¼*
Roderick Strong vs. Eddie Edwards *****-****¼*

*ROH Honor Takes Center Stage: Chapter One*
Roderick Strong vs. Davey Richards *****¼*
Eddie Edwards vs. Christopher Daniels *****¼*

*ROH Honor Takes Center Stage: Chapter Two*
Jay and Mark Briscoe vs. The All Night Express *****¼*

*ROH Revolution : USA*
The Kings of Wrestling vs. The American Wolves *****¼*

*ROH Revolution : Canada*
Eddie Edwards vs. Chris Hero *****½*

*ROH Best In The World 2011*
Eddie Edwards vs. Davey Richards *****¾*


----------



## seabs

*Shinjiro Ohtani & Yoshikazu Yokoyama vs Ryouji Sai & Kohei Sato - ZERO-1 23.05.2011*
_I'm a sucker for veteran/rookie tags and this is an awesome example of how great they can be. Otani's a fucking master of this pro wrestling lark and he's constantly one of the most entertaining guys to watch this year. Yokoyama's got a bit of a goofy look but he plays his character in that way too and it's makes him super fun. His dorkiness was awesome in this one, falling over the ropes reaching for a tag from Otani and spearing his own partner when went on a crazy rampage comeback. Otani slapping Yokoyama in the face because he asked for a tag before taking his dose of rookie punishment was glorious. Sai and Sato do a great job too working as the experience duo stiffing Yokoyama up. Sato's kicks in particular were ridiculously stiff. _

******


----------



## seancarleton77

New Japan and WWE are NEVER outperformed when they are at their best. Fact.


----------



## Fighter Daron

seancarleton77 said:


> New Japan and WWE are NEVER outperformed when they are at their best. Fact.


That's it.


----------



## antoniomare007

what the hell has that got to do with this thread :lmao


----------



## Fighter Daron

antoniomare007 said:


> what the hell has that got to do with this thread :lmao


I don't know, but that's the truth.


----------



## New Blood

So I decided this late in the year to try to watch all that I can from 2011 and that may be fooly. I have made it through January and there are some really good stuff and at least a couple really bad matches. I don't know how long I will be able to keep watching as the fall semester is rapidly approaching and now realizing how less I think of indy and puro the last couple years. All of the wXw matches were a chore to get through. I think I might just stick with WWE, lucha, an odd puro match here and there and shoot style.

Anyway, my Top 10 of January:
1. Black Terry/***** Navarro vs. Angel Mortal/El Apache [IWRG 1/16]
2. Black Terry/***** Navarro vs. Angel Mortal/El Apache [IWRG 1/9]
3. Yoshihiro Takayama vs. KENTA [NOAH 1/15]
4. Royal Rumble Match [WWE 1/30]
5. Daniel Bryan vs. Ted DiBiase [WWE 1/25]
6. CM Punk vs. John Cena [WWE 1/17]
7. Akira Tozawa vs. BxB Hulk [DGUSA 1/30]
8. Rey Mysterio vs. Alberto Del Rio [WWE 1/7]
9. Claudio Castagnoli vs. El Generico [PWG 1/29]
10. Dolph Ziggler vs. Big Show vs. Drew McIntyre vs. Cody Rhodes [WWE 1/7]


----------



## Caponex75

Am I the only one that noticed that Steen knocked Yuma out with that slap? Sheesh. Steen is apparently the Joe to Yuma's KENTA.


----------



## seabs

*Dick Togo & HARASHIMA vs KUDO & Danshoku Dino - DDT 04.06.2011*
_Awesome mix of comedy and great wrestling. HARASHIMA & KUDO have some awesome sequences and tear it up together. Dino does his usual comedy shtick which as always is great. Oh yeah Togo aint too shabby either. The Togo/Dino comedy spots were awesome and I loved how when everyone put Dino's pants on they're moves all of a sudden had Danshoku put in front of them. Danshoku Pedigree and Danshoku Senton FTW._

****3/4*

*Dick Togo vs Gedo - DDT 30.06.2011*
_Maybe not the greatest retirement match that a guy like Togo could have had but it's about as good of a non comedy match that anyone's getting out of Gedo in 2011. Fittingly Togo puts in an awesome last performance. Gedo playing his usual dickhead heel shtick given the match was kinda odd at times. Some really good limb work though which Togo sold really fucking well._

****3/4*


----------



## Fighter Daron

Hey, Togo has had a GREAT last year. His matches against Honda, HARASHIMA and Ibushi are simply awesome.


----------



## seabs

*Eh? What part of that post sounded like I was being critical of Togo? Still need to watch the Honda and HARASHIMA matches and his last M-Pro matches but he's been great in what I've seen this year.*


----------



## Fighter Daron

When you said Gedo has a good non-comedy match, I read Togo, I'm sorry man.

PD: Watch those matches, they're awesome, **** caliber in my opinion.


----------



## mikytarsend

Tanahashi vs Goto ****3/4


----------



## geraldinhio

No better way to spend your friday night then watching a bit of PWG . 

El Generico and Riochect vs Kevin Steen and Akira Tozawa -ASW8 
I have to agree with Seabs on this one . I didn't like it as much as everyone else . I'll put it down to two simple reasons . I set my expectations faaaarrrr too high anf also PWG gave away the main spots (even the finish ) on the preview video on youtube . They gave away the apron deadlift german , the reverse rana and the Steenilizer . If I hadn't ruined the match for myself this could easily of been my match of the year . Insane spots , very fluid and innovative and some great intensity between Generico and Steen . (Even though I think they could of done a lot more . )
**** 1/4 

Claudio Castagnoli vs Low Ki - ASW8 
Really enjoyed this a lot more than others I think . This is my favourite Ki match in quite some time . Anytime Claudio is facing a small wrestler it's alway pure gold and they meshed very well together . Told a great story too to me . Claudio has been PWG's MVP to me and it's gonna be a shame to see him go . Really good match . 
also ****1/4 

Chris Hero vs Akira Tozawa -ASW8 
You don't see many matches like this in the states , as many wrestlers can't pull off the vetran heavyweight vs plucky youngster style like these too did . Some sick spots , the finish was fucking awesome . Had me marking out like hell . Hero was awesome as always and played his role perfect . I havn't see much of Tozawa in singles action to be honest , usually in tags . I loved their previous match at BOLA , but this just out did it for me . Highly recommended . 
**** 1/2 

Still have a few more to watch . If i'm not doing anything tonight i'll watch Edwards and Generico next .


----------



## smitlick

ROH Manhattan Mayhem IV

Pure Rules - Daniels vs Richards - ****
ROH Title - Strong vs Edwards - ****

ROH Honor Takes Center Stage Chapter One

Strong vs Richards - ****1/4
Tag Titles - WGTT vs KOW - ****
World Title - Edwards vs Daniels - ****1/4


----------



## seabs

*Suwama vs Seiya Sanada - Triple Crown Championship - AJPW 31.07.2011*
_Sanada rocks and due to him being so awesome this match fucking rocks too. Suwama's a fine guy in his own right too and he plays his share of the deal out really well in his own right bu th match is all about Sanada. Loved his early offence coming out and taking the match to Suwama. Eventually the big guy takes the match back and slows it don to his pace by working on Sanada's injured arm. Arm work by Suwama is great but Sanada's selling is exceptional. Never once forgets about it even during the final sequences. He really does put in one of the best single performances anyone has all year. Last few minutes are great and it progresses nicely from the rest of the match too in the sense that it doesn't feel like they get to a point in the match just deicde right lets start doing our big moves now. Oh yeah and Sanada throwing elbows with his other arm because his stronger side is hurt was soooo lovely. Sanada's comeback is typically full of awesomeness. The dropkick from the ring to the outside was nuts. Loved him tearing off the bandages on his arm during his comeback so he could just go full pelt at the champ and he even started throwing strikes with his injured arm too but fought through the pain because he's a fucking warrior. Didn't mind him using his injured arm as it fit his character really nicely of being a fiery young babyface leaving it all in the ring to try and pull off the upset and win the title. Plus he was still selling the arm after using it which was great. Prior to the match Suwama pinned Sanada with his last ride powerbomb and this time out Sanada is doing everything he can to avoid and they throw in some great counters to it. Loads of great near falls to with Sanada just continuing to fight back and not die. Everything he did fitted his character so fucking well. Doing lots of near falls and having a guy kick out of big moves is fine if it fits their character and their role in the match and as long as they don't leap back up and start throwing big moves of their own out. All of them built up superbly to Suwama's finisher too and that's exactly how it was treated, a finisher which finishes the match. Don't get me wrong Suwama is great in this match but it's all about Sanada and him having an insanely brilliant display, one of the best all year for definite. Crazy great selling and amazing characterisation. Sanada rocks and this match fucking rocked._

*****1/2*


----------



## Zatiel

Seabs's enthusiasm for that match: *****


----------



## Boom Baby

Chris Hero vs Akira Tozawa (ASW8) - ****1/2

big man vs small man psychology at its best. awesome match


----------



## Bubz

Glad to see the love for Hero/Tozawa . If the crowd was as hot as they were for their first match at BOLA, this would be seriously touching 5* for me.


----------



## Caponex75

WWE Summerfest 2011 is pretty much head to head with MITB as ppv of the year. The double main events were INSANE. Punk and Cena actually went all strong style on each other at the end when Punk kneed him in the chest.


----------



## Bubz

Punk/Cena was fucking awesome! If it had a better ending it would be better than the MITB match.

Orton/Christian was great aswell, easily ****+ for both.


----------



## lewieG

I agree, both main events were over ****. Another great PPV, and that ending was insane.


----------



## Rickey

*WWE Summer Slam 2011*
Punk vs. Cena

Also enjoyed:
Christian vs. Orton
Barrett vs. DB
Henry vs. Shaemus


----------



## Bubz

The ending makes this story with Punk even better IMO. Lol at everyone in the WWE section pissing and moaning about it.

Henry/Shaemus and Bryan/Barrett were both really good aswell. Really good PPV.


----------



## Saint Dick

Punk/Cena and Christian/Orton were excellent. Thought Punk/Cena was worked better than their MITB match with some really good counter wrestling and stiff strikes, it didn't have the emotion or atmosphere that the Chicago match had though.


----------



## bigbuxxx

****** to cena/punk
*******1/2 to orton/xtian


----------



## antoniomare007

way too tired to write something but I agree. CC vs Orton and Cena vs Punk are MOTYC worthy. Didn't think either was as good as Orton vs CC at Over The Limit or Punk vs Cena at MITB, but nonetheless both are great matches.


----------



## KingCrash

Both matches were great, but I liked Christian/Orton just a tad bit more then Punk/Cena. The callback to the way Orton won the title the first time from Christian as the finish to the feud was nice.


----------



## NorthernLights

My Match of the Night was Christian vs. Orton, but I don't think it was the strongest match of their feud. Same could be said for Punk vs. Cena.


----------



## Bubz

I'll have to rewatch both matches but my initial recation was ****1/4 for both.


----------



## KingKicks

****-****1/4 for both matches, though I give the slight advantage to Orton/Christian.


----------



## dj161

Orton vs Christian ****
Punk vs Cena ****

really good show, just a notch behind MITB


----------



## seabs

*Randy Orton vs Christian - No Holds Barred - World Heavyweight Championship - Summerslam 2011*
_This was fucking brilliant and my WWE MOTY so far. Awesome match just in terms of being a WWE hardcore style match but then when you throw in all the awesome throwbacks to their previous matches they had it really escalated. Didn't care for Edge. Thought it was odd how they were basically saying that Edge and Christian were best friends but they haven't spoke since Edge retired. Loads of stuff to like about the match. Really liked how they used and teased the finishers throughout the match by having them throw them out before the final stretch but each time they get countered because the opponent isn't worn down enough yet so they go back to the weapons before going for them again. Really got the importance of the moves over as well as the desperation to win the match. RKO table spot rocked. Loved how Christian teased going for it himself but his cockyness ended up getting the best of him and Orton finally broke the table with his RKO. Feel sorry for the poor bastard for continuing to take those table bumps off his own move. Christian spitting on Orton before the conchairto was another awesome spot and played off the MITB match superbly with Christian using it again to piss Orton off but not having any stips to hide behind this time so yet again his cockyness ended up being his downfall. Finish was an awesome spot on it's own but again was a great throwback spot to their first match. Christian + Hardcore match also means that you get Christian bumping which always equals greatness. The two table spots came off great too. Booking wise it kinda sucked to have Christian drop the belt again but the match more than made up for it. Wouldn't suprise me if we end up with yet another Christian/Orton singles match after this. Definitely my WWE MOTY and probably top 15, possibly top 10 anywhere in the world this year._ 

*****1/2*

*CM Punk vs John Cena - WWE Championship - Summerslam 2011*

_Not quite as good as their MITB match, mainly because the match never really seemed to take off towards the end like their MITB match did. Slower pace worked for them and it fitted with how they built the match up as being super important. The sumbission counters sequence that they did was awesome. Really glad they didn't so some stupid screwjob angle with Trips in the end. I thought Trips' role worked really well at the end with him just trying to have a straight winner and a single WWE champ but then Nash of all people turns up to ruin his picture and then Del Rio just fucks it up even more. Del Rio's part was obvious that it was coming but I didn't expect them to do something like that with a guy like Nash. Hopefully it goes somewhere and they have a decent explanation for it though. Noticed some massive guy by the barrier when Punk was celebrating but I just figured it was a security guard or someone and then they zoomed in on Punk and you could hear the atmosphere of the crowd change so I knew someone was there but when it ended up being Nash it shocked me. Really interested in seeing where they go with Punk/Nash and Cena/HHH after the finish. Didn't feel like your typical WWE main event style match which helped them as it felt really fresh and the strikes were great, especially Cena's flurry of punches towards the end._ 

*****1/4*


----------



## Rickey

^Agreed

One of the great things about the Christian/Orton ending is that that's the EXACT same way Christian lost the belt in the first place. I remember in the 2nd match(Christian as the challenger) he teased doing that move from the ropes but he remembered that's how he lost the belt. Now as the champion he tries it again and...BAM!!!


----------



## seancarleton77

Punk vs. Cena = ****3/4 to *****


----------



## Bubz

*Cena vs Punk - Summerslam*
Cena and Punk have amazing chemistry in the ring together, and anyone who still says that Cena can't wrestle after this match is a blind fucking tool. Cena's chain wrestling at the start was brilliant and he easily hung with Punk in that department. The slow pace is great and it really suits both guys. The match seemed all together more fluent than the mitb match, and this match really seemed important right from Trip's entrance. Punk is just a great wrestler and he proved it here with some innovative offence and him wearing down Cena by working on the mid section was nice. Cena's comebacks were great and that dropkick he did was unusual but it looked fucking awesome lol. Then we get to the amazing submission exchange and the great spot were Punk hits a sucide dive and both men are out of it, trips counts to 9 and just gets out of the ring and picks up both guys and throws them in the ring, awesome little touch there. then there is the epic strike exchange at the end were it looks like both guys are just doing whatever the fuck they can to hit their opponent, that running kick out of nowhere by Punk was awesome and Cena sold it like he got shot, not to mention Cena kicking out of the GTS which I don't recall anyone ever doing and Punk hitting the Savage elbow drop was an amazing moment. The crowd was HOT for this aswell and were with both wrestlers all the way through, even the great chain wrestling at the start which created an awesome atmosphere. The only thing I didn't like was the foot on the rope ending, which kind of took the crowd out of it, but it progressed the story so I'm not going to complain much about it. Great great match and I would say equal to the MITB match. *****1/2*

But then we get the aftermath which IMO was bloody great! First of all there is tension between Cena and HHH after Trip's missed Cenas foot on the rope, then Punk celebrates and gets his hand raised by HHH and there looks to be some respect for HHH in the eyes of Punk for calling it down the middle. Then Trip's leaves uo the ramp and Kevin Nash comes from nowhere and destroys Punk with a clothesline and a Jackknife. WTF!!! Then Del Rio cashes in his MITB and wins the belt (which I don't like at all, but he is going to be a transitional champ so it's okay). Nash leaves through the crowd and Trip's comes back down and he was brilliant here, just a look of utter confusion and annoyance on his face. Is he with Nash? Did Steph get Nash without asking HHH? Will Punk blame HHH? Is Punk now 100% face? Needless to say i'm excited for RAW tonight! I can't belive some of the people over in the WWE section completely shitting on this, it's like they don't have any concept of building a great story, which is what this is. WWE is going in the right direction right now IMO, and HHH seems to be doing a good job so far, that along with the fact that Punk is now respected enough backstage to have some creative control and him saying in interviews that they want to bring change to the company is making me the most excited I have been about the company since about 2001.


----------



## -Mystery-

Cena/Punk - ****1/2
Orton/Christian - ****1/2

One of the best double main events ever.


----------



## Wrestlinfan35

*WWE Money in the Bank 2011*

*CM Punk vs. John Cena* - ****1/2
Not quite as good as their MITB match, but the in ring stuff was just great, maybe better than MITB. I'd say this was Cena's best match ever from a technical standpoint. The crowd was great as well, LA really shocked me with how into it they would be. The only thing I have to complain about is the ending with Cena's foot on the rope. The crowd was into this up until that moment. Obviously, this could come into play later on in the angle, but right now I don't like the finish.

*Randy Orton vs. Christian *- ****1/4


----------



## Fighter Daron

seancarleton77 said:


> Punk vs. Cena = ****3/4 to *****


Yeah, worse than their match at MITB, but still an incredible bout with a lot of work rate.

About Christian Vs Orton, I don't like the last minutes with that beating of a lifetime that Orton did because it killed the crowd, everyone knew exactly who was gonna win, still ****1/4.


----------



## Henry Hill

Thought Christian vs Orton was easily match of the night at Summerslam. There were some great nods to the money in the bank clash and the acting was sublime especially from Christian.

Cena vs Punk had a great opening and end but I thought the middle section really lagged. Neither one of these men are the most fluid inside the squared circle and it takes more than a hot crowd for me to heavily praise a match. That being said it was great to see Cena show some heartfelt emotion after Punk avoided defeat to his usual immortal finishers. Fantastic drama but the in ring quality was really nothing special.


----------



## seabs

*Hiroshi Tanahashi vs Toru Yano - NJPW 13.08.2011*
_Yup that's right, Toru Yano in not only a great match but a MOTYC and what's probably even more shocking is that it's mostly great for Yano rather than Tanahashi. Well it's mostly great for the crazy ass bonkers Korakuen Hall crowd. For whatever reason they fucking worshipped Yano and even got to the point where they were booing Tanahashi. Biggest difference between Tana and Cena amongst there many similarities is Tana's ability to react to a changing environment and his ability to heel it up a little when it becomes necessary. Once he realises the crowd are against him and for Yano he starts heeling it up a little with his cocky mannerisms which were awesome. They have a good match up until the last 5 minutes and from there the match just takes off and just keeps on getting better and better the longer it goes. Awesome near falls and watching it spoiler free probably made them even better. Tana ends up with a really nasty cut above his eye after Yano launches a chair at him which looked legit nasty. K.Hall fucking rocks so much they've managed to make the 2 best G1 matches so far matches involving Tenzan and Yano. Crazy shit._

*****1/4+*

*KUDO vs Shuji Ishikawa - KO-D Openweight Championship - DDT 24.07.2011*
_Great example of how far a strong story can carry a match. As a stand alone match it's alright, not all that great. Ishikawa is a big boulder and is kinda hard to work a technically great match. Story is KUDO is the underdog babyface who's really stepped up to the big time after winning the King of DDT tournament to earn this shot and start to establish himself as a main event guy. Basic David vs Goliath psychology to the match and it's basically impossible to fuck up. In a tag before the title shot Ishikawa pinned KUDO with his Splash Mountain and they play off that nicely with KUDO pulling out some nice reversals for it and even managing to kick out of it this time with a huge crowd behind him. KUDO plays a really great babyface that just wont stay down and is determined to have his moment in the spotlight. All of the comedy shtick that DDT does aside they always do a great job with their title matches, especially when they put a lower card guy in a big title match._

******

*Meant to mention MiSu vs Inoue from the 8/10 G1 show but I forgot about it. Awesome match and a great example of how much MiSu has rocked during G1. Nakamura/Anderson and MVP/Goto are both great matches too, ***3/4+*


----------



## Jeffie

I actually liked this one more than their MITB match (which i gave ****3/4)

It had less-to-none botches from my point of view, crowd was still good, Cena and Punk still have amazing chemistry it had good technical wrestling and psychology. This was wrestling and what makes me love wrestling... The match itself ***** and MOTY for me so far!

The Aftermath doesn't matter to me here (Because it will only help Punk in the future.. Nash anit gonna bury him)plus I'm only looking at the match itself.

Can we please agree that Cena CAN wrestle


----------



## Clique

Jeffie said:


> Can we please agree that Cena CAN wrestle


That should have been agreed on back in 2007.


----------



## reDREDD

His matches vs shawn, khali, umaga and lashley are scientific proof cena can not only wrestle but wrestle brilliantly.

made me sick to hear 'you cant wrestle' chants at summerslam, one month after he delivered a five star classic with Punk


----------



## Wrestlinfan35

redeadening said:


> His matches vs shawn, khali, umaga and lashley are scientific proof cena can not only wrestle but wrestle brilliantly.
> 
> made me sick to hear 'you cant wrestle' chants at summerslam, one month after he delivered a five star classic with Punk


This and this.


----------



## Fighter Daron

The Cena stuff is so old-fashioned. A guy who thinks Cena is a bad wrestler, doesn't have any fucking idea what these business are all about.


----------



## Kid Kamikaze10

Ok, I NEED to watch Tana/Yano match. I'm a Yano mark, so to hear him actually get praise is awesome.


----------



## Caponex75

*Christian vs. Randy Orton - ****1/2*
The best match they have had in my opinion(Haven't re watched their Over the Limit match). Orton is in his prime it seems as a wrestler right now and is the clear Wrestler of the year as far as the WWE is concerned. Great facials, great body gestures, and just has a awesome sense of storytelling. Christian was bumping around like a freaking fool and showed great personality as well as fantastic character moments. I like how his ego was his downfall at points especially when he was about to RKO Orton on the table and when he spat on Orton when he was going to kill Orton with the chair. Speaking of the spit, Orton's reaction was great. He just started trying to find ways to murder Christian and just brutalized him.

The match also got a added boost from Orton's unintentional blood which made the match get a tad more intense. The counters here were just fantastic. Christian blocking Orton shoving him into the table with that reverse DDT and trying the spear that was countered into a attempt RKO which was countered into Christian tossed him outside nearly gave me a heart attack. The RKO/killswitch gave me a brain gasm really. The ending was ironic yet a fitting end to this rivalry. Orton knew it was coming, Christian was just reacting accordingly, and the same way his reign ended the first time, it ended the same way this time.
*
CM Punk vs. John Cena w/HHH as the special referee - ****1/2-****3/4*
This missed being as good as their MITB counterpart but a inch is not BAD. CM Punk and John Cena kicking out before HHH could make a legit count in the early going was a great show of storytelling. This is the biggest match in their career(Again) and HHH could be looking to screw over one of them badly. I also liked that both men were not taking chances with each other. They feel each other out and when they do hit some high impact offense, they calm it down with going right back to hold. That shows while they do take their opportunities, they weren't taking any chances in making mistakes. They also had some superb counters especially with Cena busting out the cross face and counters to their previous match too. The character moment with HHH going out to toss them back in was tremendous and that strike exchange was EPIC. The dropkick that Cena gave Punk has to be one of the best dropkicks I've ever seen. I marked hard when he nearly took his head off with that.

The ending was awesome and honestly, something that never happens in WWE. Punk knocked the crap out of Cena and all it did was **** CENA OFF! Cena started going off on Punk with strikes till Punk just knocked him silly with another shinning wizard. Great match but more importantly, Cena's leg on the ropes set up so many things and made the MITB cash in less predictable. I loved Punk watching HHH like a hawk when he got his hand raised as I think I and everyone else was expecting a pedigree. Good thing he didn't because Nash's involvement actually caused interest and can lead to so many things.


----------



## lewieG

Caponex's description of both matches pretty much sums it up for me. 

I'm going ****1/2 for both after a second viewing.


----------



## Bubz

I rewatched Punk/Cena from SS, It's fucking incredible, IMO it easily matches their MITB match and in a lot of ways surpasses it. The in-ring action is far and away better and is worthy of this rating without the epic crowd (even though the crowd was really into it). Got to agree with everything Capone said. The finishing stretch is fucking beautiful and is the best of the year, maybe even better than Hero/Tozawa. Like Capone said, the strike exchange was unbelievable, that running knee by Punk to Cenas chest was insane, but it just made Cena go crazy on Punk with strikes, I've never seen that kind of emotion out of Cena before, but then Punk just knocks him the fuck out with that high knee on the ropes, GTS and BOOM! Yeah, I love this match. *****3/4* and my new MOTY.

By the way, Punk is just fucking awesome. Just watch his promo with Nash last night and his envolvment with HHH and Steph and you can tell he is becoming the face of the company. His real life character of do what he wants, say what he wants, to whoever he wants is awesome and I marked the fuck out when he said that to Nash last night.


----------



## Vader

I greatly prefer the Summerslam match. MITB had the crowd and the big-time feel but Summerslam was a better overall match and one that was much smoother. I'd understand why a big Punk fan would favour the MITB match but he's not one of my personal favourites. I had MITB at around ****1/4-1/2, I'd have Summerslam down as ****3/4. There's a better case for the Summerslam match being 5* than there is for MITB, in my opinion.


----------



## dj161

Michael Elgin & Roderick Strongs vs American Wolves - ROH Tag Team Turmoil - July 8th 2011 - ****1/4

Great match from start to finish, the final ten minutes or so were fantastic, shame it was the only match on the card really worth watching though


----------



## Henry Hill

redeadening said:


> His matches vs shawn, khali, umaga and lashley are scientific proof cena can not only wrestle but wrestle brilliantly.
> 
> made me sick to hear 'you cant wrestle' chants at summerslam, one month after he delivered a five star classic with Punk


I'd say he's a good performer and superior in ring actor (when he wants to be) but as a technician he is very sloppy and he frequently neglects to sell. Overall I'd say he was good not brilliant and as far as I'm concerned he's never been close to a five star match. Best singles match I've seen in him was probably the Night of Champions clash with Triple H.

I still think Punk's best match is with Jeff Hardy from Summerslam. Hardy is as criminally underrated an in ring performer as Cena if not more underrated.


----------



## Caponex75

Honestly, Cena/Punk from Summerslam is a much more crisp match with some damn great storytelling but nothing just beats the sheer emotion and overall just battle of the MITB in my opinion. Punk coming in and becoming the under dog against super experienced main event John Cena that never choked was just amazing. The hill he had to climb and Cena just not folding over for him was immense(Cena countered the GTS what felt like 30 freaking times). Both are still classic matches for me though and fantastic because they are both completely different. I believe Punk and Cena may become one of those classic combination to be compared with guys like Steamboat vs. Flair.


----------



## Speedy McGee

I've been catching up on a lot of 2011 wrestling these past couple of days. I'm way behind a lot of people right now on my MOTY candidates (boot camp has put me behind on my wrestling), but I will catch up these next couple weeks. Let the reviewing commence. 


*Bad Intentions vs Hiroshi Tanahashi & Hirooki Goto (NJPW) ***3/4*

I'm not a big fan of either Tanahashi & Goto. To me they are the HHH and John Cena of NJPW, and are both vastly overrated. That said this was a pretty decent old school kind of tag team match up. There weren't any big spots, but the crowd helped me get into this match. The crowd was really hot, and there were a couple of near falls towards the end of the match which helped raise my interest for this match. The first halve though is too slow and plodding for my taste. The action does pick up though, so if you can get past the slow start it's definitely worth a view.

*Cole & O'Reilly vs. LDRS Of The New School (wXw) *****

Not the big MOTY candidate everybody is making it out to be, but definitely an excellent tag team spot fest to check out. This is the first time I have seen LDRS Of The New School wrestle, and they really did impress me with their tag skills. Both teams went out balls to the wall, and the match was non stop action. The Spike Tombstone Piledriver by the LDRS Of The New School was fucking sick!!! I really did enjoy this match, but I couldn't rate the contest any higher then ****. This match was a very fun tag team spot fest. Nothing more nothing less. But, like I said the match was really fun to watch so I definitely recommend everybody check this match out.

*John Cena vs. CM Punk (WWE Summerslam) ****1/4*

As a lot of people know I really did not enjoy Cena and Punk's MITB match last month. The wrestling felt off, the match was really sloppy, and I just thought the match is one of the most overrated matches in recent memory. The rematch to the critically acclaimed Money In The Bank match was an much better overall match in my eyes. This match was nowhere as sloppy, the wrestling was much cleaner, there were many great reversals, and the near falls had me on my feet. What I liked about this match the most is how different it is from their Money In The Bank match. Punk vs. Cena 1 is an much more emotionally charged contest with an excellent story to back it up, while Punk vs. Cena 2 serves as an much better overall wrestling match. Not to mention the post match shenanigans had me marking out like a school girl. Sooo the theme of the story is Punk vs. Cena 2 > Punk vs. Cena 1. The end.

*Dick Togo vs. Kota Ibushi (DDT) ****1/2*

Can somebody please tell me why people are not talking about this match? A very underrated excellent match which somebody on some other wrestling forums recommended to me. I was skeptical to check it out, because I have not seen anybody mention it on these forums, but I'm really glad I did take the time to watch this match. The match had some really great near falls, great high flying action, some great strong style, and was just an overall great wrestling match. I'm a big fan of both of these wrestlers (especially Dick Togo). These two wrestlers hit one another sooo freaking hard. There were numerous times throughout the match I was marking out and pressing the rewind button to mark out again and again. The biggest spot of the match for me was Kota Ibushi's STIFF flying dropkick to Dick Togo on the outside. Sadly Dick Togo has already wrestled his last match in Japan, and is currently on his retirement world tour. After watching this match I still think the guy could wrestle another 5 years, and put on awesome matches just like this one. Dick Togo leaving wrestling makes me a sad panda .

*NO DQ- Randy Orton vs. Christian (WWE Summerslam) ****1/2*

Holy fuck what a match. I could watch these two wrestle another 100 more matches, and never get tired of the matches these two are putting on. Every match these two wrestle feel's different and fresh. Both men served their roles really well in this match. You could feel how pissed off Orton was in this match, and he wrestled a very intense style. The facial expressions, and actions Orton was acting out was excellent. Christian on the other side of the spectrum was very cocky, and arrogant throughout this match (which serves well with his current character.). Numerous times throughout the match Christian had the upper hand, but his arrogance would end up being his downfall. For example, when Christian arrogantly tried to hit Orton with the RKO on the announce table just to get RKO'd by Orton was a perfect spot for this match. This match is another example that two wrestlers do not need blood, or an PG-13 rating to wrestle a very intense hard hitting match (The first being Undertaker vs. HHH at Wrestlemania 27). The crowd were really into this match, and I don't blame them. This is my second favorite WWE MOTY, and rated as number 3 on my MOTY candidates. And, while I'm thinking this match is the big blow off with Orton going over; I'm really hoping these two have one last match at WWE Hell In A Cell.


39) Rey Mysterio vs. Cody Rhodes (WWE Wrestlemania 27) ***3/4
38) Christopher Daniels vs. Claudio Castagnoli (ROH Only The Strong Survive) ***3/4
37) Randy Orton vs. Christian (WWE Smackdown) ***3/4
36) Bad Intentions vs Hiroshi Tanahashi & Hirooki Goto (NJPW) ***3/4
35) Falls Count Anywhere-The Miz vs. John Morrison (WWE RAW) ***3/4
34) Cage Match- Jeff Jarrett vs. Kurt Angle (TNA Lockdown) ***3/4
33) Ladder Match- Christian vs. Alberto Del Rio (WWE Extreme Rules) ***3/4
32) The Briscoes Bros vs. WGTT **** (ROH 9th Anniversary Show)
31) Dolph Ziggler vs. Edge (WWE Royal Rumble) ****
30) Cage Match- John Cena vs. John Morrison vs. The Miz (WWE Extreme Rules) ****
29) Takashi Sugiura vs Giant Bernard (NOAH) ****
28) Kenta vs. Yoshihiro Takayama (NOAH) ****
27) LAST MAN STANDING- Randy Orton vs. CM Punk (WWE Extreme Rules) ****
26) Daisuke Sekimoto vs. Ikuto Hidaka (Zero-1) ****
25) Davey Richards vs. Low Ki (PWG KurtRussellReunion 2) ****
24) Daisuke sekimoto vs. El Generico (wXw) ****
23) LAST MAN STANDING- Bully Ray vs. AJ Styles (TNA Slammiversary) ****
22) John Cena vs. Rey Mysterio (WWE RAW) ****
21) Raw Elimination Chamber (WWE Elimanation Chamber) ****
20) Eddie Edwards vs. Christopher Daniels (ROH 9th Anniversary) ****
19) Kota Ibushi vs. Prince Devitt (NJPW 01/04/11) ****
18) Chris Hero vs. Davey Richards (ROH Only The Strong Survive) ****
17) John Cena vs. CM Punk (WWE Money In The Bank) ****
16) El Generico vs. Eddie Kingston (CHIKARA Chaos In The Sea of Lost Souls) ****
15) Cole & O'Reilly vs. LDRS Of The New School (WxW) ****
14) Kotaro Suzuki vs Ricky Marvin (NOAH) ****1/4
13) Sekimoto & Okabayashi vs Sanada & Soya (AJPW 02/06/11) ****1/4
12) Claudio Castagnoli vs. El Generico (PWG KurtRussellReunion 2) ****1/4
11) Roderick Strong vs. Jay Briscoe (ROH Only The Strong Survive) ****1/4
10) Christian vs. Randy Orton (WWE Over The Edge) ****1/4
9) John Cena vs. CM Punk (WWE Summerslam) ****1/4
8) smackdown Money In The Bank (WWE Elimanation Chamber) ****1/4
7) Omega and Ibushi vs. Devitt and Taguchi (NJPW) ****1/4
6) Eddie Edwards vs. Kotaro Suzuki (NOAH) ****1/2
5) Smackdown Elimination Chamber (WWE Elimanation Chamber) ****1/2
4) Dick Togo vs. Kota Ibushi (DDT) ****1/2
3) NO DQ- Randy Orton vs. Christian (WWE Summerslam) ****1/2
2) Hiroshi Tanahashi vs. Yuji Nagata (NJPW) ****1/2
1) NO DQ- Undertaker vs. HHH (WWE Wrestlemania 27) ****3/4


----------



## Boom Baby

Summerslam 2011 - Cena vs Punk - ****1/4


----------



## antoniomare007

*Hiroshi Tanahashi vs Toru Yano - NJPW G-1 Climax 13/8*

lmao! what the fuck did just happened? This was like the time when Ishii was able to get a great match out of Inoue in 08'. This time it was more about Korakuen wanting Yano to win at all cost and Tanahashi being able to adapt to this the weird atmosphere. An awesome and MUST WATCH tournament match.


----------



## Bubz

Is it as good as Tana/Goto?


----------



## antoniomare007

hmm, they are completely different imo. I enjoyed it more but I wasn't as big of a fan of Tana/Goto as others.


----------



## seabs

*Tana/Goto is unquestionably the better match but Tana/Yano is more fun with the crazy crowd and the atmosphere. Like Chile said they're totally different matches so you can't compare them.*


----------



## KingKicks

*PWG Kurt RussellReunion II: The Reunioning*

Low Ki vs. Davey Richards ******

Claudio Castagnoli vs. El Generico *****¼*


----------



## mk92071

ROH Best In The World
Davey Richards vs. Eddie Edwards
****3/4

The best match of the year I've seen, and it deserves tons and tons of recognition. This match was great start to finish, and I was on the edge of my seat in excitement. This match was a great way to do their 'blowoff'? I really don't know what to call it. Nonetheless amazing.


----------



## seabs

*The final day of G1 is incredible. Not a single match under *** and a whole bunch of great matches

Bernard vs Yano - ***3/4
Kojima vs Tenzan - ****
Nakamura vs Suzuki - ****
Apollo 55 vs Golden Lovers - ****
G1 Final - ****1/4*


----------



## antoniomare007

I would switch Yano/Bernard with MVP/Anderson but otherwise I agree 100% with those snowflakes.


----------



## antoniomare007

*Go Shiozaki vs Jun Akiyama - NOAH "PRO-WRESTLING NOAH ANNIVERSARY" 06.08.2011*

As with every NOAH title match, your enjoyment will depend on the middle part of the match and if you can be entertained by it or keep interest on what they are doing. Akiyama busting Go hard way with a flying knee from the apron gave the match the touch it needed for me to be invested in Go's comeback and his continuous struggle to prove he is no longer a "young gun". They had a stupid top rope stop were I don't know what they were trying to do but besides that, this was a solid, hard fought battle. And hey, Differ Ariake didn't suck for once. 

****-****1/4


----------



## Concrete

Can someone tell me the best matches from All Japan this year?


----------



## Dimas75

enlightenedone9 said:


> Can someone tell me the best matches from All Japan this year?


All the ***3/4 to ****1/2 matches from AJPW sofar:

2011-01-02, Kaz Hayashi vs Minoru
2011-02-06, Minoru vs Shuji Konda vs Kaz Hayashi
2011-02-06, Seiya Sanada & Manabu Soya vs Daisuke Sekimoto & Yuji Okabayashi I
2011-02-11, Seiya Sanada & Manabu Soya vs Daisuke Sekimoto & Yuji Okabayashi II
2011-02-11, Shuji Kondo vs Kaz Hayashi
2011-03-21, Shuji Kondo vs Minoru
2011-03-21, Seiya Sanada & Manabu Soya vs Daisuke Sekimoto & Yuji Okabayashi III
2011-04-08, Jun Akiyama vs Taiyo Kea
2011-04-09, Yuji Nagata vs Suwama
2011-04-09, Taiyo Kea vs Minoru Suzuki
2011-04-10, Jun Akiyama vs Seiya Sanada
2011-04-12, Taiyo Kea vs Seiya Sanada
2011-04-13, Yuji Nagata vs Seiya Sanada
2011-06-19, Suwama vs Yuji Nagata
2011-06-19, KAI vs Shuji Kondo
2011-06-19, Seiya Sanada & Manabu Soya vs Daisuke Sekimoto & Yuji Okabayashi IV
2011-07-18, Kaz Hayashi, Shuji Kondo & Minoru vs KAI, Hiroshi Yamato & BUSHI
2011-07-18, Suwama & Masaktsu Funaki vs Seiya Sanada & Taiyo Kea
2011-07-31, Triple Crown Championship: Suwama vs Seiya Sanada

Especially the Sekimoto/Okabayashi are must watch (if you like tagteam action). They also had a good match in BJW (4/28). The singles matches are all very good, but not really MOTY candidates (all stuck around the **** range).


----------



## Concrete

Thanks a lot man.


----------



## sXsCanadianFansXs

I have Cena/Punk and Christian/Orton both in the ****1/2 range.

It's interesting to read that there are people who preferred the SSlam match over their bout at MitB. In the "WTF Dave Meltzer" department, he rated Cena/Punk ***1/2 after going the full five for MitB.

Uhhh... Am I missing something here?


----------



## topper1

sXsCanadianFansXs said:


> I have Cena/Punk and Christian/Orton both in the ****1/2 range.
> 
> It's interesting to read that there are people who preferred the SSlam match over their bout at MitB. In the "WTF Dave Meltzer" department, he rated Cena/Punk ***1/2 after going the full five for MitB.
> 
> Uhhh... Am I missing something here?


Some people don't understand atmosphere that is rarely in a wrestling match like it was Cena vs Punk 1. All they wanna see is Devitt and Dragon Gate wrestlers fly around and hand out **** every time they see a nice flip.


----------



## sXsCanadianFansXs

topper1 said:


> Some people don't understand atmosphere that is rarely in a wrestling match like it was Cena vs Punk 1. All they wanna see is Devitt and Dragon Gate wrestlers fly around and hand out **** every time they see a nice flip.


The atmosphere for Cena/Punk II was pretty damn good as well.

And it's not like Cena or Punk did anything too flashy (ie flips). They started out with some old fashioned chain wrestling that escalated into a series of reversals followed by a hot finish.

I don't see your point here.


----------



## bigbuxxx

he was saying more flips = more stars not chain wrestling.

i thought the end was pretty bad tbh and it culminated with the foot on the rope.


----------



## topper1

sXsCanadianFansXs said:


> The atmosphere for Cena/Punk II was pretty damn good as well.
> 
> And it's not like Cena or Punk did anything too flashy (ie flips). They started out with some old fashioned chain wrestling that escalated into a series of reversals followed by a hot finish.
> 
> I don't see your point here.


My point was the people that don't understand the greatness in Punk vs Cena 1 are the people who rate every avarage Devitt match they see **** 1/2


----------



## Henry Hill

sXsCanadianFansXs said:


> I have Cena/Punk and Christian/Orton both in the ****1/2 range.
> 
> It's interesting to read that there are people who preferred the SSlam match over their bout at MitB. In the "WTF Dave Meltzer" department, he rated Cena/Punk ***1/2 after going the full five for MitB.
> 
> Uhhh... Am I missing something here?


I'd say that second Meltzer rating was right on the money. A big factor behind his five star score for the first match seemed due to the crowd and for a portion of the second match both competitors lost the crowd so it makes perfect sense that the rating would be down.


----------



## Nervosa

topper1 said:


> My point was the people that don't understand the greatness in Punk vs Cena 1 are the people who rate every avarage Devitt match they see **** 1/2


Ahem........no, they aren't.


----------



## jawbreaker

oh hey you're back. I'd like to see what you think of my Tanahashi/Goto review.


----------



## bigbuxxx

jawbreaker said:


> oh hey you're back. I'd like to see what you think of my Tanahashi/Goto review.


just saw this last night. i have a hard time not giving this 5 stars when i gave cena/punk at mitb 5 so i'll just say this was 6 stars. when i say holy shit multiple times in a match i just have to.

i thought that part was a botch since it looked like goto wanted to go cover him but then moved away very quickly when he realized he may have been hurt.


----------



## Caponex75

Tanahashi vs. GOTO for the IWGP Championship? Man I dislike that match. I think Tanahashi/Kojima is getting no sold to much.


----------



## bigbuxxx

dfsagwerf


----------



## Caponex75

Nah from New beginning. Wrestle Kingdom match is pretty great but I think the mmatch at New Beginning is their best.


Oh and HOLY FREAKING CRAP at Shiozaki vs Akiyama. I was a big fan of Shiozaki in 2009 & 2010 but he just seemed to be the guy they stopped caring about in NOAH. He would of had a great title match with Sugiura had the crowd not brutally murdered it but with that and his perfomance in Kobashi's return match, I wasn't to inspired about him. Then this popped up. This had great psychology, great storytelling, and I don't know if it was hard way or blade job but Shiozaki started busting out the BEST SELLING OF ALL TIME. Go is one of those guys who can really put over how devastating something is(Like he did with Nakajima kick in 2005{Or hell in 2011 when he spit his guts out when Nakajima kicked the turnbuckle} or with Saito's back drop suplex) but he went past that and made it unbelievable. At first the story was Shiozaki was a better striker and as soon as Shiozaki messed up, Akiyama was over him like Rotheslinberger on a drunk girl. After that, it was all about Shiozaki's neck then his broken freakin face. The heat never died down when it picked up and leaves me with a smile. Unfortunately, the match has two big botches(Well one was kinda covered up good) that hurt it for me but man, this was a ride that you'll love. Gave me a chub. ****1/4 Would of been higher if they didn't mess up and I mean ALLOT higher but unfortunately these were actual botches. Not sloppiness like Nervosa complains about.


----------



## bigbuxxx

ahhh saw that from 2/20? have that downloaded for later


----------



## starship.paint

topper1 said:


> Some people don't understand atmosphere that is rarely in a wrestling match like it was Cena vs Punk 1. All they wanna see is Devitt and Dragon Gate wrestlers fly around and hand out **** every time they see a nice flip.


this Dragon Gate fan rated Cena vs Punk 1 ****3/4, third best match that I have watched <though I haven't watched too many>


----------



## Groovemachine

Watched Nightmare Violence Connection vs Generico & Ricochet from PWG ASW8 N1, and as others have said this was incredible, just all-out balls to the wall action, a solid ****1/2. Steen countering Generico's brainbuster into the package piledriver in mid air was insane, I was left open-mouthed. My new #3 MOTY, just behind the LDRS/Cole & O Reilly tag which I've got marginally ahead of this although I could probably do with a rewatch.

About to catch up on Summerslam, and then I've got DDT4 2011 and ASW8 Night 2 to watch. It's gonna be a good week of wrestling for me!


----------



## Caponex75

*The American Wolves vs. O'Reily & Cole* ****1/2

Maybe higher. Seriously, this match makes water taste like sex.


----------



## wildpegasus

It could be the best North American tag of all time. Incredible match.


----------



## peep4life

wildpegasus said:


> It could be the best North American tag of all time. Incredible match.


wait? what? What show is this on, I obviously need to watch it. Is it better then Tag Team Classic?


----------



## KingCrash

peep4life said:


> wait? what? What show is this on, I obviously need to watch it. Is it better then Tag Team Classic?


It's from the latest show No Escape. Wouldn't call it the best tag match ever all time all my life but it's the best tag match in ROH this year with Wolves/Kings II behind it. So far the only thing redeeming about the show.


----------



## topper1

The American Wolves vs. O'Reily & Cole **** 1/4

Super fun fast paced match with a hot crowd and decent flow. One thing that really bugged me was O'Reily winning the 1st two strike battles against Davey not exacltly how I would have laid out the match but whatever.


----------



## silver kyle

Anybody have an updated list of maybe the top 10 or top 20 must see matches this year? I've mostly been watching WWE this year, which I must say has been one of their best years in awhile, but I still need to see a lot more from Japan and the indies.

My current match of the year is probably Punk vs. Cena from Money in the Bank and SummerSlam, both at ****1/2, with Eddie Edwards vs. Chris Hero also at ****1/2.


----------



## Fighter Daron

My top would be: 

1.WWE: Money in the Bank: WWE Championship: John Cena Vs CM Punk
2.NJPW: Dominion 6.18: IWGP Heavyweight Championship: Hiroshi Tanahashi Vs Hirooki Goto 
3.WWE: Summerslam: WWE Undisputed Championship: John Cena Vs CM Punk – Special Referee: Triple H 
4.NJPW: The New Beginning in Miyagi: IWGP Heavyweight Championship: Hiroshi Tanahashi Vs Satoshi Kojima 
5.PWG: DDT4 2011: DDT 4 Final Match: Nightmare Violence Connection Vs Young Bucks 
6.PWG: Kurt Russelmania II: PWG World Championship: Claudio Castagnoli Vs El Generico 
7.ROH: Best in the World: ROH World Championship: Davey Richards Vs Eddie Edwards 
8.WWE: Over The Limit: World Heavyweight Championship: Randy Orton Vs Christian
9.NJPW: G1 Climax XXI: Night 2: G1 Climax - Block B: Satoshi Kojima Vs Shinsuke Nakamura 
10.WWE: Wrestlemania XXVII: Undertaker Vs Triple H - No Holds Barred
11.NJPW: Wrestle Kingdom V: IWGP Heavyweight Championship: Satoshi Kojima Vs Hiroshi Tanahashi
12.NJPW: Fantastica Mania Night 2: IWGP Jr. Heavyweight Tag Team Championship: Kota Ibushi & Kenny Omega Vs Prince Devitt & Ryusuke Taguchi 
13.WWE: Capitol Punishment: CM Punk Vs Rey Mysterio 
14.DDT: Jugdment 2011: KO-D Openweight Championship: Dick Togo Vs Kota Ibushi 
15.ZERO - 1: New Year's Show: AWA Heavyweight Championship: Daisuke Sekimoto Vs Ikuto Hidaka 
16.PWG: DDT4 2011: DDT 4 Semi-Final Match: Nightmare Violence Connection Vs Kings of Wrestling 
17.ROH: Only The Strong Survives: Davey Richards Vs Chris Hero 
18.NOAH: Great Voyage in Tokyo 2011: GHC Jr. Heavyweight Championship: Kotaru Suzuki Vs Katsuhiko Nakajima 
19.ROH: Tag Title Classic II: ROH World Tag Team Championship: Kings of Wrestling Vs American Wolves 
20.NJPW: Wrestle Kingdom V: IWGP Jr. Heavyweight Championship: Prince Devitt Vs Kota Ibushi


----------



## kwjr86

*WWE: Summerslam 2011 *
John Cena vs CM Punk - ****-****¼ 
Randy Orton vs Christian - ****¼+

*ROH: No Escape *
El Generico vs. Roderick Strong - ****
Eddie Edwards & Davey Richards vs. Adam Cole and Kyle O’Reily - **** ½


----------



## dj161

O'Reilly & Cole vs American Wolves - ROH No Escape - ****

Really good entertaining tag match, wouldn't go as high as others have though as pratically nothing got sold for the whole of the match, granted the post match had some great selling, but nothing between the bells really did


----------



## seabs

*Main I was really disappointed with Wolves/F.Shock, even more so after reading the rave reviews it's been getting. Anyone who's turned off by the current Indy style and it's flaws even in the slightest should avoid it. It's basically 4 guys wrestling a really quick pace for an extended length of time. Crowd was super for it and that really made the match but without the crowd it would have been an average match. There's no point criticising the selling because it's a dead end. Nobody even bothered with that aspect of wrestling. The type of match they were doing could have worked but only if there were same brutal strike exchanges, insane spots and a little sighting of a story. They had potential to do something with Davey and Kyle but they achieved nothing until the post match. I was really excited at the prospect of those two working against each other but after the match I'd much rather see Edwards face O'Reilly in a singles match. Once again I didn't really feel the match put Cole and O'Reilly over all that well in terms of being a threat to the more established teams. The only match that did that was the KOW match really. Yeah they looked good and they took a lot of moves but at the end of it all they still looked like an undercard team to Wolves' main event status. The match wasn't really all that crisp either and Cole/O'Reilly have had many better performances imo. I fucking hate Davey when he no sells everything and then decides it's time to pretend he's all worn out and can't go any longer before firing back up. Davey's corny babyface mic stuff is horrendous too. I still liked the match but in no way is it a MOTYC or anywhere near as good as Kings/Wolves II or most of the PWG acclimated tags this year. Their tag with LDRS from 16 Carat far trumps it in every way too, including the crowd and the atmopshere.

Generico/Strong was better than it. Not too thought or dragged out and Generico looked immense during it.*


----------



## jawbreaker

haven't seen the match but can everyone admit what we've all known for months, that Cole and O'Reilly are the best team in ROH, now?


----------



## KingCrash

They are with the Kings going out the door. Would love to see a Kings or Bucks vs. Cole & O'Reilly rematch for DBD next month.


----------



## antoniomare007

*Yuji Okabayahi & Shinobu vs Yoshihito Sasaki & Kazuki Hashimoto - BJW 7/25/2011*

Seriously guys, you need to stop rewatching the same matches to see if your snowflakes ratings "hold up" and start enjoying Strong BJ greatness. I mean the 6/27 six-man tag and this match are 24 minutes COMBINED and are more fun than 90% of the stuff going on in wrestling right now. The finishing stretch in this match ain't as good as the 6/27 tag but everything else is on par or even better.


yo Seabs, did you watch Daisuke vs Tanaka? I'm seem to be the only one who liked it...or who watched it


----------



## seabs

*Haven't seen it yet. The file doesn't play on my USB for some reason so I'll have to watch it on my PC at a later date. I'm kinda low in Sekimoto at the moment anyway after the Soya match, Hayato match, Seiya/Sanada IV and the BJ 6 man in AJPW.

On the topic of O'Reilly and Cole, the match vs Bucks is phenomenal for an 8 minute match, **** *


----------



## dezpool

Cole & O'Reilly vs The Young Bucks was so much fun to watch. Just two great young teams tearing it up and getting the crowd going.


----------



## LowKi

I just saw *Go vs Akiyama*. Simply amazing. I have it ***** 1/2 *
Great story in this match and Go is really getting to become a killer. I really want him to face NOAH's top stars like Sugiura for a rematch, Morishima or outsiders like Kensuke or Takayma. Book him against NJPW's best like Makabe, Tanahashi, Nakamura or Nagata.

I just really hope Go keeps the belt for a long long time!


----------



## Stellar Supernova

Wolves vs Future Shock - ****1/2

Amazing, but I still have Wolves vs Kings higher.


----------



## Nervosa

jawbreaker said:


> oh hey you're back. I'd like to see what you think of my Tanahashi/Goto review.


I'm assuming this was directed at me. Sorry for the delay...I'm just so freaking obsessed with Fantasy English Premier league....I can't pull away enough to watch/review MOTYs. Not that most people here are complaining.

I like your review style here....its so familiar. 

I STILL think you are giving the match way too much credit. I just think the leg work was too scattered to ever mean anything. You said it yourself: the first one didn't mean anything ,and the second one, while meaningful, was so short that it didn't seem to come off. I also think and that the 'neck injury' came out of nowhere without the neck getting worked over. You said Tanahashi 'took a whole bunch of stuff to the head," but in all honesty, I don't thin khe really did. And IF he did, he never sold it once before that bridge. Like, at all. To me, that is bad storytelling.

I really REALLY think that the muscular bomb is a botch, my friend.

You're right....the finish just SUCKS. You know the worst part? Goto's last section of moves were AWESOME, including his new finisher. And then all of a sudden, Tanahashi hits his same stupid bullshit and wins. 

Great review, but I hated this way more than you did.


----------



## jawbreaker

The neck workover was definitely there. I don't know how you missed it, because Goto does like three backdrop drivers and a second rope neckbreaker, and then Tanahashi sold it on like his first move after the workover. And I think the first leg work being no-sold was intentional to build up the story, and Goto kind of sold the second one (though he could have done a better job).

The muscular bomb could have been a botch, but it fit very nicely with the story and didn't look horribly out of place so I don't really mind. I get your position on these things, but I disagree.


----------



## Nervosa

jawbreaker said:


> The neck workover was definitely there. I don't know how you missed it, because Goto does like three backdrop drivers and a second rope neckbreaker, and then Tanahashi sold it on like his first move after the workover. And I think the first leg work being no-sold was intentional to build up the story, and Goto kind of sold the second one (though he could have done a better job).
> 
> The muscular bomb could have been a botch, but it fit very nicely with the story and didn't look horribly out of place so I don't really mind. I get your position on these things, but I disagree.


Cool, that makes sense. I would probably agree that the botch worked fine where it was.

Your argument about the first workover selling the second is one I have heard for other matches, and in all honesty, I didn't like it there, and I don't like it here. If the purpose of the workover is to evoke sympathy and set the ground for a comeback, I don't really understand having a section where you just pause that story so you can add more moves. Hurts the story, in my opinion. 

I guess the backdrop drivers looked less like clinical, focused attacking of the neck and more like just big spots in a finishing stretch, to me. I guess I just can't classify that as a workover. It wasn't drawn out, Tanahashi didn't sell his neck especially right after the backdrop drivers. Sure, he sold it when he REGAINED control, but couldn't he have sold a little more DURING the workover? I don't know, I just don't see it. It just looked like Goto pulling out big moves, to me.


----------



## Caponex75

I thought the storytelling was there and became quite obvious that Goto was going for the neck but the match never really hit that point where it went above. Tanahashi's leg work didn't really seem to serve any purpose like it did on Nagata and Goto just plain didn't care to sell it. Maybe I'm just a plain sorry ass but Tanahashi's comeback at the end was the weakest thing I've seen in a big major match up. It felt forced but not in a good way and didn't really come off as Tanahashi summoning strength from within like when he lariated the nonsense out of Kojima. It actually felt extremely cartoony as a matter of fact. If Goto bumped like that for a cardboard box, it would of felt just as believable in my view. I probably need to re watch but it is by far one of my least favorite Tanhashi title matches that I have seen.

Oh and Nervosa, I don't think that move really counts as a finisher since he hasn't beat anyone of importance with it I believe. I thought it more of a way to try to beat Tanahashi with something new since all his past matches with him his current set has failed.


----------



## LowKi

Yano vs Tanahashi from G1 day 9 is incredible. Great crowd pumped up for every heel tactic displayed by Yano because fans dont want to see an IWGP Champ going into the finals of the tournament. Great great ending with an absolutely sick atmosphere.

Hands down Mr Yano, hands down!

***** 1/4*


----------



## Nervosa

Caponex75 said:


> I thought the storytelling was there and became quite obvious that Goto was going for the neck but the match never really hit that point where it went above.


I guess I just must have missed it, then. I still don't feel it was especially sold as a neck injury, and I will say it felt more like just hitting big moves that actual focussed workover, but maybe I'm wrong. 



> Tanahashi's leg work didn't really seem to serve any purpose like it did on Nagata and Goto just plain didn't care to sell it. Maybe I'm just a plain sorry ass but *Tanahashi's comeback at the end was the weakest thing I've seen in a big major match up.* It felt forced but not in a good way and didn't really come off as Tanahashi summoning strength from within like when he lariated the nonsense out of Kojima. It actually felt extremely cartoony as a matter of fact. If Goto bumped like that for a cardboard box, it would of felt just as believable in my view. I probably need to re watch but it is by far one of my least favorite Tanhashi title matches that I have seen.


Its so very comforting to meet up on the same opinion once and a while, Capone. Well said here, all around.

Granted I hate everything Tanahashi does, but still.



> Oh and Nervosa, I don't think that move really counts as a finisher since he hasn't beat anyone of importance with it I believe. I thought it more of a way to try to beat Tanahashi with something new since all his past matches with him his current set has failed.


That's a really good point; i hope that is it, exactly. I think Goto's failure to win the big one is one of the best things in NJPW that embodying it in a move is an awesome idea. Kudos. 

I guess the move was just SO pimped in the intro-video package that it had the 'this is over' feel to it when it connected, for me. Surely he beat SOMEONE with it on the tour previous in order to build it up.......right? Then again, if he had...it would probably have been IN the into video more. Whether it was an established finisher or not, it was surely used as one, which was my original point.


----------



## seancarleton77

Hey Nervosa, Do you enjoy wrestling or do you just enjoy making it look boring and sucking the life out of it?


----------



## dele

BJW 7/25

Ito/Sasaki vs Hoshino/Kobayashi

***3/4

Damn fun match


----------



## Nervosa

seancarleton77 said:


> Hey Nervosa, Do you enjoy wrestling or do you just enjoy making it look boring and sucking the life out of it?


Hey sean, do you enjoy not using your brain when you watch wrestling? You do? Good for you...but those of us who leave our brains on can actually critique a match for what it is...for better or worse. I think you'll find that is sorta what the thread is for. 

I enjoy something when it makes me think. I enjoy things that actually survive legitimate criticism instead of ignoring flaws.



dele said:


> BJW 7/25
> 
> Ito/Sasaki vs Hoshino/Kobayashi
> 
> ***3/4
> 
> Damn fun match


Hey Dele,

I haven't followed BJW in a while, so I was wondering...I haven't heard much about Tadeka & kodaka since they dropped the belts. Are they still relevant? I really liked them.


----------



## seancarleton77

Nervosa said:


> Hey sean, do you enjoy not using your brain when you watch wrestling? You do? Good for you...but those of us who leave our brains on can actually critique a match for what it is...for better or worse. I think you'll find that is sorta what the thread is for.
> 
> I enjoy something when it makes me think. I enjoy things that actually survive legitimate criticism instead of ignoring flaws.



I was not knocking you for critiquing matches, I was just knocking you for pretty much exclusively critiquing matches. Where I enjoy matches or I don't. I don't give a thousand reasons why I didn't like a match and then say one of to good things. The problem is you talk more about shit you can't stand than you do about shit you like. You were right about Triple H vs. Taker, it was brainless and athletically shit, but when at least 90% of your posts are negative and you talk like a person who doesn't love pro wrestling some suspicions may arise. Your negativity is your only problem.


----------



## Nervosa

seancarleton77 said:


> I was not knocking you for critiquing matches, I was just knocking you for pretty much exclusively critiquing matches. Where I enjoy matches or I don't. I don't give a thousand reasons why I didn't like a match and then say one of to good things. The problem is you talk more about shit you can't stand than you do about shit you like. You were right about Triple H vs. Taker, it was brainless and athletically shit, but when at least 90% of your posts are negative and you talk like a person who doesn't love pro wrestling some suspicions may arise. Your negativity is your only problem.


In all honesty, this is because I don't think we are getting much in the way of in-ring quality anymore. Asa result, I think the wrestling community is glorifying lacklustre wrestling. Most of the matches brought up in this thread that are given ****1/4-****3/4 would have been **** or less three years ago. That's why I review them that way. I give a lot of negative reason because I honestly feel people are overlooking them in order to make the matches better than they are.

I don't only write negative reviews: in this thread alone I've written lengthy reviews praising the matches I have given ****1/2, and I even defended Nakajima/Suzuki against a lot of criticism. Even my review for the 4 on 4 Dragon Gate survival matches that Seabs loved were mostly praise while not dwelling on critique nearly as much. 

Sure, I'm a negative guy, but I think its pretty minor compared to the ridiculously bad stuff that gets praised around here all the time.


----------



## antoniomare007

Nervosa said:


> Most of the matches brought up in this thread that are given ****1/4-****3/4 would have been **** or less three years ago. That's why I review them that way. I give a lot of negative reason because I honestly feel people are overlooking them in order to make the matches better than they are.


This ALWAYS happens. GTFOH with this "years ago this wouldn't have happened". Years ago people were wetting their pants with Briscoe's moveszfest, KENTA's no selling ass, Tanahashi's formula matches and "HBK is the GOAT" talk.

There's NOTHING WRONG with that happening 2-4 years ago, and there's nothing wrong with it happening nowadays. Hell, there's tons of matches that I found awesome in 07' that I don't think are that good anymore but that doesn't mean I was wrong in liking them that much at that time.


----------



## seancarleton77

All Together:

No Fear vs. Kenskay & Akiyama = ****1/4 to ****1/2

Muto & Kobashi vs. Yano & Iizuka = ****


----------



## Cactus

^ Overrating those matches, don't 'cha think?

All Together:
Opening Match: ****
Junior Carnival: ****1/4 to ****1/2


----------



## bigbuxxx

seancarleton77 said:


> All Together:
> 
> No Fear vs. Kenskay & Akiyama = ****1/4 to ****1/2
> 
> Muto & Kobashi vs. Yano & Iizuka = ****


i'd go 3.25 for fear vs. sasayama - had some good moments but was nothing special
maybe 2.5 for the other - same as above but worse


----------



## seancarleton77

Cactus said:


> ^ Overrating those matches, don't 'cha think?
> 
> All Together:
> Opening Match: ****
> Junior Carnival: ****1/4 to ****1/2


No I do not think I'm overrating the matches. Kobashi & Muto vs. Yano & Iizuka was not the greatest wrestling match, but it was a perfect example of Heroes vs. Villains. It was thoroughly entertaining, brought me back to my childhood, the question should be how could I not rate it 4 stars?

I gave the Jr. Carnival 4 stars as well, but for very different reasons, based more on the workrate and stiffness, and over all excitement. Nakajima vs. Kanemoto was easily the highlight.

The opener I may have given ***1/4, tops.

No Fear! Go Ahead!! easily gets 4 and a quarter, for workrate, stiffness, crowd reaction, and the Clash of the Titans like feel. Everything clicked in that match. Best Takayama match of 2011, even better than the match against KENTA.


----------



## Cactus

seancarleton77 said:


> No I do not think I'm overrating the matches. Kobashi & Muto vs. Yano & Iizuka was not the greatest wrestling match, but it was a perfect example of Heroes vs. Villains. It was thoroughly entertaining, brought me back to my childhood, the question should be how could I not rate it 4 stars?
> 
> I gave the Jr. Carnival 4 stars as well, but for very different reasons, based more on the workrate and stiffness, and over all excitement. Nakajima vs. Kanemoto was easily the highlight.
> 
> The opener I may have given ***1/4, tops.
> 
> No Fear! Go Ahead!! easily gets 4 and a quarter, for workrate, stiffness, crowd reaction, and the Clash of the Titans like feel. Everything clicked in that match. Best Takayama match of 2011, even better than the match against KENTA.


Fair enough, but I still don't get all the Takayama/KENTA love. It really didn't seem that great to me.


----------



## antoniomare007

seancarleton77 said:


> No I do not think I'm overrating the matches. Kobashi & Muto vs. Yano & Iizuka was not the greatest wrestling match, but it was a perfect example of Heroes vs. Villains. It was thoroughly entertaining, brought me back to my childhood, the question should be how could I not rate it 4 stars?


I ain't gonna tell you why you shouldn't give snowflakes. But Yano and Iizuka, as expected, sucked the life out of that match. I guess if you mainly focus on the story of the match you could have liked that much but as far as execution and reaction, the heels (and also Kobashi) failed to deliver, IMO.



seancarleton77 said:


> No Fear! Go Ahead!! easily gets 4 and a quarter, for workrate, stiffness, crowd reaction, and the Clash of the Titans like feel. Everything clicked in that match. Best Takayama match of 2011, even better than the match against KENTA.


Takayama was the worst part of that match. Aside from the KENTA encounter, he has shown a heavy decline all year long. I guess he is just too broken down.


----------



## Fighter Daron

antoniomare007 said:


> I guess he is just too broken down.


He is, I think he should think in retirement next year.


----------



## Bubz

Probably. But I would say Kobashi needs to retire more than anyone.


----------



## Fighter Daron

bubz123 said:


> Probably. But I would say Kobashi needs to retire more than anyone.


I haven't watch anything about his comeback, but he's not older than Takayama and has had a lot more problems.


----------



## seancarleton77

Takayama is t the end of the road. But No Fear! Go Ahead!! was the best he's looked since his GHC Title match with Sugiura in 2010.


----------



## Cactus

Kobashi's got a few years left in him if he stops being full-time.


----------



## Groovemachine

Christian vs Randy Orton - WWE Super Smackdown 30.08.11 - ****

At this point in their feud, these two know each other so well, resulting in a match such as this where there were counters galore and everything flowed beautifully. They also made great use of the cage, which I appreciated as I often find that this can take a backseat in your average WWE cage match these days. Props for the finish too, that was cool


----------



## Speedy McGee

*Chris Hero vs. Daisuke Sekimoto (wXw Kreuzzug ZXI) ***3/4*​
Not going to lie I was actually expecting a lot more out of this match, and was kind of disappointed with the end result of the overall match. It kind of felt like these two were holding back a little bit, and I'm 100 percent sure these two can pull a bunch better match together out of there ass. I'm a big fan of both of these men, so my expectations might have been a little to high for this contest. Now it was still a pretty good contest, but nothing really to spectacular. Still worth a watch to see these two men go at it for the first time.


*Austin Aries vs. Low-Ki vs. Zema Ion vs. Jack Evans (TNA Destination X) ***3/4*​
This match gives me hope for the almost dead X-Division. Just nonstop action which hasn't been seen from the X-Division in over 2 or 3 years. The crowd was red hot throughout this contest, and were behind Jack Evens the entire time (hint... hint... TNA). All four men played their role, but Zema Ion stood out like a sore thumb. Zema Ion was nowhere near the level of Low Ki, Jack Evans, and Austin Aries. At times during the match he seemed kind of lost, but it didn't hurt the match too much. Overall it was a fun little X-Division spot fest, and I'm crossing my fingers that TNA gives both Low Ki and Jack Evans a contract.


*Cage Match- Randy Orton vs. Christian (WWE Smackdown) *****​
I have loved the Orton/Christian feud and I can never get tired of their matches together. This was a very great tv match, and a great way to end the Orton vs. Christian feud. The match was back and forth with both wrestlers one upping each other. The action was hot throughout the entire contest, but it really picked up after the last commercial break. With 10 minutes of uninterrupted wrestling both men stepped their game up as the match was a full ass sprint to the end. Both men utilized the cage very nicely, and it was much better then the usual WWE cage match. Not only did this match have great ring action, but it had 5 matches worth of storytelling to present to the wrestling audience who were watching at home. In the end the Orton/Christian feud has been my favorite WWE feud (in ring wise) since HBK vs. Chris Jericho back in 2008. Anybody who still has not seen the Orton vs. Christian matches definitely need to get on that pronto, and watch all of their matches in order.


*Takashi Sugiura vs Trevor Murdoch (NOAH) *****​
Surprisingly awesome match from these two, and it really does showcase that working in Japan can be very beneficial to a wrestler's work rate. Trevor Murdoch has improved tremendously since I last saw him in WWE, and he looked very good throughout this match. Trevor Murdoch actually worked like a 2011 version of Stan Hansen in this match, and stiffed it out with Takeshi Sugiura the whole match. I'm actually very optimistic towards Murdoch's future in NOAH, and hope NOAH utilizes Murdoch more often. This match is definitely worth watching just to see how much Murdoch has improved in the ring.


*CAPTAIN FALL LOSER REVIVES ELIMANATION MATCH- SHINGO, Cyber Kong, KAGETORA & Taku Iwasa vs CIMA, Gamma, Dragon Kid & Ricochet (Dragon Gate) *****​
I have never been a big fan of Dragon Gate (Never have, never will). That said there are usually a good 5 Dragon Gate matches I check out every year that I enjoy. This match was your typical Dragon Gate big tag spot fest. The action was balls to the wall, and all of the wrestlers went out at a very fast pace. I was entertained throughout the match; which is the only reason I rated this match at 4 stars. That said there were multiple things that I did not like about this match. First off I had a hard time understanding the Captain Fall Elimination Rules. I have never watched a Captain Falls match, so I didn't know what to expect coming into this match. Another thing which really bugged me about this match was how fast the eliminations were in the beginning of this match. It seemed like people were getting eliminated right when they were tagged in for the first time, and a lot of people did not get a chance to actually wrestle for long. Like I said earlier the match was really fun, but you might have to turn your brain off a little bit to enjoy it.


*Sanada & Soya vs Sekimoto & Okabayashi (AJPW 02/11/11) ****1/4*​
This was the second match out of the Sanada & Soya vs Sekimoto & Okabayashi trilogy from AJPW this year. Great stuff throughout this match even if the match felt really similar to the first match between all four of these men. Sekimoto and Okabayashi make a great team, and are both impressive monsters. But I watched this match a while back, so I do not remember a lot about this match. I just know the match had me marking out right up to the point of the time limit draw at the end. With the first two Sanada & Soya vs Sekimoto & Okabayashi ending in a time limit draw; I have a lot of expectations for their final match, and hope I am not disappointed. 


*Bad Intensions vs. No Limit (NJPW) ****1/4*​
Awesome fucking stuff! Bad Intention prove once again why they are considered one of the best tag teams out there today. This is currently my tag MOTY, and stands out as one of my favorite matches from this year. Like the last match that I reviewed I haven't watched this match in a while, so forget me if my review is very brief. There really isn't much to say except go watch this match if you have not checked it out yet. I would definitely recommend this match to people who have never watched puro in their lives and want to get into Japanese wrestling. 



47) Rey Mysterio vs. Cody Rhodes (WWE Wrestlemania 27) ***3/4
46) Christopher Daniels vs. Claudio Castagnoli (ROH Only The Strong Survive) ***3/4
45) Randy Orton vs. Christian (WWE Smackdown) ***3/4
44) Bad Intentions vs Hiroshi Tanahashi & Hirooki Goto (NJPW) ***3/4
43) Falls Count Anywhere-The Miz vs. John Morrison (WWE RAW) ***3/4
42) Cage Match- Jeff Jarrett vs. Kurt Angle (TNA Lockdown) ***3/4
41) Ladder Match- Christian vs. Alberto Del Rio (WWE Extreme Rules) ***3/4
40) Daisuke Sekimoto vs. Chris Hero (wXw) ***3/4
39) Austin Aries vs. Low-Ki vs. Zema Ion vs. Jack Evans (TNA Destination X) ***3/4
38) The Briscoes Bros vs. WGTT **** (ROH 9th Anniversary Show)
37) Cage Match- Randy Orton vs. Christian (WWE Smackdown) ****
36) Takashi Sugiura vs Trevor Murdoch (NOAH) ****
35) Dolph Ziggler vs. Edge (WWE Royal Rumble) ****
34) Cage Match- John Cena vs. John Morrison vs. The Miz (WWE Extreme Rules) ****
33) Takashi Sugiura vs Giant Bernard (NOAH) ****
32) Kenta vs. Yoshihiro Takayama (NOAH) ****
31) LAST MAN STANDING- Randy Orton vs. CM Punk (WWE Extreme Rules) ****
30) Daisuke Sekimoto vs. Ikuto Hidaka (Zero-1) ****
29) Davey Richards vs. Low Ki (PWG KurtRussellReunion 2) ****
28) Daisuke sekimoto vs. El Generico (wXw) ****
27) LAST MAN STANDING- Bully Ray vs. AJ Styles (TNA Slammiversary) ****
26) John Cena vs. Rey Mysterio (WWE RAW) ****
25) Raw Elimination Chamber (WWE Elimanation Chamber) ****
24) CAPTAIN FALL LOSER REVIVES ELIMANATION MATCH- SHINGO, Cyber Kong, KAGETORA & Taku Iwasa vs CIMA, Gamma, Dragon Kid & Ricochet (Dragongate) ****
23) Eddie Edwards vs. Christopher Daniels (ROH 9th Anniversary) ****
22) Kota Ibushi vs. Prince Devitt (NJPW 01/04/11) ****
21) Chris Hero vs. Davey Richards (ROH Only The Strong Survive) ****
20) John Cena vs. CM Punk (WWE Money In The Bank) ****
19) El Generico vs. Eddie Kingston (CHIKARA Chaos In The Sea of Lost Souls) ****
18) Cole & O'Reilly vs. LDRS Of The New School (WxW) ****
17) Sanada & Soya vs Sekimoto & Okabayash (AJPW 02/11/11) ****1/4
16) Kotaro Suzuki vs Ricky Marvin (NOAH) ****1/4
15) Sekimoto & Okabayashi vs Sanada & Soya (AJPW 02/06/11) ****1/4
14) Claudio Castagnoli vs. El Generico (PWG KurtRussellReunion 2) ****1/4
13) Roderick Strong vs. Jay Briscoe (ROH Only The Strong Survive) ****1/4
12) Christian vs. Randy Orton (WWE Over The Edge) ****1/4
11) John Cena vs. CM Punk (WWE Summerslam) ****1/4
10) Kotaro Suzuki vs. Katsuhiko Nakajima (NOAH) ****1/4
9) Smackdown Money In The Bank (WWE Elimanation Chamber) ****1/4
8) Omega and Ibushi vs. Devitt and Taguchi (NJPW) ****1/4
7) Bad Intensions vs. No Limit (NJPW) ****1/4
6) Eddie Edwards vs. Kotaro Suzuki (NOAH) ****1/2
5) Smackdown Elimination Chamber (WWE Elimanation Chamber) ****1/2
4) Dick Togo vs. Kota Ibushi (DDT) ****1/2
3) NO DQ- Randy Orton vs. Christian (WWE Summerslam) ****1/2
2) Hiroshi Tanahashi vs. Yuji Nagata (NJPW) ****1/2
1) NO DQ- Undertaker vs. HHH (WWE Wrestlemania 27) ****3/4


----------



## Bubz

*ROH No Escape - American Wolves vs Future Shock ****1/4*
Really fun tag match that was made even better by the hot crowd. Yes, this was basically a sprint, but a great one, much like Cole/O'Reilly vs LDRS from 16 carat earlier this year but not quite as good. The O'Reilly and Davey exchanges were the best part of the match. Poor Kyle gets destroyed for the most part, oh and LOL at the time keeper getting 'piece of shit' chants.

*ROH Tag team Turmoil - American Wolves vs Strong/Elgin *****
Another pretty great tag match. Elgin is a beast and this is my favorite match he has been involved in so far in ROH. The Edwards/Elgin exchanges in this one were particularly fun. Strong and Davey both looked great aswell though, and it didn't go overkill which I thought it would considering who was in the ring.


----------



## TelkEvolon

bubz123 said:


> *ROH No Escape - American Wolves vs Future Shock ****1/4*
> Really fun tag match that was made even better by the hot crowd. Yes, this was basically a sprint, but a great one, much like Cole/O'Reilly vs LDRS from 16 carat earlier this year but not quite as good. The O'Reilly and Davey exchanges were the best part of the match. Poor Kyle gets destroyed for the most part, oh and LOL at the time keeper getting 'piece of shit' chants.
> 
> *ROH Tag team Turmoil - American Wolves vs Strong/Elgin *****
> Another pretty great tag match. Elgin is a beast and this is my favorite match he has been involved in so far in ROH. The Edwards/Elgin exchanges in this one were particularly fun. Strong and Davey both looked great aswell though, and it didn't go overkill which I thought it would considering who was in the ring.


Really looking forward to this these matches, I've heard good things from everyone who has watched them.


----------



## Fighter Daron

I've read bad opinions about the HOT match, but I'm dying to see the FS match.


----------



## Bubz

It's really great as long as you don't go in expecting anything more than a really fun sprint of a match with a pretty good student/teacher angle going on.

The HOT match is the same really, it's worth watching because Elgin really looks awesome in it, and I could very easily see him being the future of the company.


----------



## Chismo

KENTA & Yoshinobu Kanemaru vs. Atsushi Aoki & Kotaro Suzuki (NOAH 08/24/11) ******

KENTA is such a badass.


----------



## jawbreaker

Finally got around to watching Hero/Edwards from Revolution Canada.

The first half of the match pretty much sucked. Edwards' usual bullshit prevented anything from developing, and Hero fell into the trap of doing cool mat stuff just to do it. It got a lot better once Hero started working on the elbow, and Edwards, to his credit, sold it well the whole way through. The interference was a bit weak for my taste, and the finish sucked immensely, but this was probably the best Edwards singles match I've ever seen.

******


----------



## Bubz

I kind of feel the same really about Edwards/Hero, I loved Hero's arm work and I actually liked the early stages of the match with the striking and what not, but it went on too long and the interference ruined it a bit for me. The table spot was awesome and Eddie did sell the arm well for the most part.

Gonna get around to watching that tag match JoeRulz posted about, anything with KENTA being a bad motherfucker is good for me.


----------



## Caponex75

Man I thought Wolves vs. HOT was underwhelming. Elgin looked good but it was just to meh. The horrible crowd was probably the reason I wasn't able to get into it. Future Shock is leagues above it though.


Davey did do a good job putting over O'Reily and Elgin though in those matches.


----------



## Nervosa

Ok so I just watched Cena/Punk and Orton/Christian. I think I'm too tired to give them a proper rating, so I'll have to rewatch, but it leads me to a big issue that I feel I am re-treading a whole lot in this thread.

I am asking this to HONESTLY find out your guys' opinions, and I'm NOT IN ANY WAY trying to insult what people like. I don't even necessarily mean this question applies to these two matches...

Here's the question:

How important is having a workover session (at LEAST five minutes without getting offense), and, as a result, how important is a comeback?

That is to say, for something to be considered a MOTY, is the workover/comeback formula necessary? Are there times when this can be overlooked? If so, during what conditions? Is the only acceptable time to not use this formula when the action is 'REALLY GOOD?'

Also, this question basically assumes that in order to HAVE a comeback, you need a workover in the first place. If you don't agree with that either, I certainly would love to hear all about this, too

Again, trying very hard not to flame anyone's preferences, just trying to gauge opinion on this issue for future critiquing purposes.


----------



## FITZ

I don't think a match has to follow any specific formula in all honesty. If a work over segment fits into the context of the story they are trying to tell in the ring than it should be used. If it isn't needed to tell the story that the wrestlers want to tell in the ring than I honestly don't think they need a lengthy control segment just because that's what a wrestling match is "supposed" to have.


----------



## antoniomare007

I guess you are talking about the Summerslam matches? Did anyone think those were the match of the year?



Nervosa said:


> That is to say, for something to be considered a MOTY, is the workover/comeback formula necessary? Are there times when this can be overlooked? If so, during what conditions? Is the only acceptable time to not use this formula when the action is 'REALLY GOOD?'


To me, it can be overlooked if the match has enough good/great additional things to "balance things out" so to speak. Mainly crowd reaction and drama.



Nervosa said:


> Also, this question basically assumes that in order to HAVE a comeback, you need a workover in the first place. If you don't agree with that either, I certainly would love to hear all about this, too


what Taylor said.


----------



## jawbreaker

I mark my ass off for good heel work, which of course can't happen without good babyface work. Shit like Kevin Steen vs. Player Dos from last year, and Chris Hero vs. El Generico from the same show, stand out to me because of the great character dynamics, and no matter how good the action is, I will never like a match like Elgin/Edwards.

I like matches that build to a finish, that have moments that stick out in my mind as emblematic of the story, and above all, matches that make sense. If I'm yelling "what the fuck are you doing that for" at the screen, then the match sucks. Period. It's why I gave up on WWE: too much emphasis on gradually increasing disconnected spots for nothing but a crowd reaction.

Wrestling doesn't have to be perfectly realistic, there's always going to be an element of showmanship and suspension of disbelief, but it's got to work within the rules it creates for itself. I'll buy that a Shooting Star Press is a finisher, sure. I won't buy that Sami Callihan's opponent will tap out to a Stretch Muffler without any work on the leg.

I don't know if that answers the question but I drank a lot tonight. Basically I don't think a traditional workover/comeback structure is necessary, so long as there is a clear structure and/or solid character dynamics. I think solid character dynamics beget good structure, and vice versa, most of the time. Action is important, but there are no circumstances where action outweighs logic. I really want to say that I don't think less of people who disagree with me on this point. To value action over logic, in my opinion, is to favor short-term gratification over actual quality, and that's what leads to people like Eddie Edwards and Sami Callihan getting pushed and wasting main event slots.

There are great wrestling matches out there of all different styles, some super-traditional workover/comeback formula stuff (BDK/3.0 from Eye to Eye), some crazy all-out sprints (Future Shock/Kings of Wrestling from Honor Takes Centre Stage Night 2), some just pure clinical showcases (Hero/Shelley from As the Worm Turns), but all of them make logical sense. That, in my opinion, is what makes a wrestling match good. It's why I think Paul London is a top ten wrestler of the last decade and I have no use for Kurt Angle.

This entire post may be rambling, semi-coherent nonsense, I've had tons of alcohol tonight. But hey, I said some things I think I wanted to say. If it makes sense to anyone, great, if not I'll try and explain it when I'm sober.


----------



## Ali Dia

I think a work over session is important, especially in a heel v face match. I've never thought about a set length for said work over period. Does getting like a hit or two in before getting cut off still count as a work over period without opponent getting offense? Anyway I think a semi recent example Strong v Richards matches. The only one I truly loved was there match from Atlanta and I guess a lot of that was because Davey had to make comebacks as Strong dominated in comparison to their other matches which were probably way too back and forth. 

But if we had a face v face match I'm not sure if I feel as if we need long control segments as long as the story of the match is still clear.


----------



## lewieG

I agree with Taylor, matches don't have to follow a set formula. Over a show, I want variety, with some 'showcase' style matches/some traditional face vs heel style matches etc, not a collection of matches which were put together using a diagram or a formula.


----------



## Fighter Daron

jawbreaker said:


> That, in my opinion, is what makes a wrestling match good. It's why I think Paul London is a top ten wrestler of the last decade and I have no use for Kurt Angle.


Dammit, I gotta see more from London.


----------



## topper1

Fighter Daron said:


> Dammit, I gotta see more from London.


Don't get your hope's up there is a few great matche's from early ROH after that he isn't that great.


----------



## Bubz

jawbreaker said:


> I mark my ass off for good heel work, which of course can't happen without good babyface work. Shit like Kevin Steen vs. Player Dos from last year, and Chris Hero vs. El Generico from the same show, stand out to me because of the great character dynamics, and no matter how good the action is, I will never like a match like Elgin/Edwards.
> 
> I like matches that build to a finish, that have moments that stick out in my mind as emblematic of the story, and above all, matches that make sense. If I'm yelling "what the fuck are you doing that for" at the screen, then the match sucks. Period. It's why I gave up on WWE: too much emphasis on gradually increasing disconnected spots for nothing but a crowd reaction.
> 
> Wrestling doesn't have to be perfectly realistic, there's always going to be an element of showmanship and suspension of disbelief, but it's got to work within the rules it creates for itself. I'll buy that a Shooting Star Press is a finisher, sure. I won't buy that Sami Callihan's opponent will tap out to a Stretch Muffler without any work on the leg.
> 
> I don't know if that answers the question but I drank a lot tonight. *Basically I don't think a traditional workover/comeback structure is necessary, so long as there is a clear structure and/or solid character dynamics. I think solid character dynamics beget good structure, and vice versa, most of the time. Action is important, but there are no circumstances where action outweighs logic.* I really want to say that I don't think less of people who disagree with me on this point. To value action over logic, in my opinion, is to favor short-term gratification over actual quality, and that's what leads to people like Eddie Edwards and Sami Callihan getting pushed and wasting main event slots.
> 
> There are great wrestling matches out there of all different styles, some super-traditional workover/comeback formula stuff (BDK/3.0 from Eye to Eye), some crazy all-out sprints (Future Shock/Kings of Wrestling from Honor Takes Centre Stage Night 2), some just pure clinical showcases (Hero/Shelley from As the Worm Turns), but all of them make logical sense. That, in my opinion, is what makes a wrestling match good. It's why I think Paul London is a top ten wrestler of the last decade and I have no use for Kurt Angle.
> 
> This entire post may be rambling, semi-coherent nonsense, I've had tons of alcohol tonight. But hey, I said some things I think I wanted to say. If it makes sense to anyone, great, if not I'll try and explain it when I'm sober.


This is pretty much what I was going to say, and I also agree with what Taylor said. 

Punk/Cena from SS is probably my second favorite match this year by the way. I loved everything about it apart from the finish at the time, but it lead somewhere so i'm fine with it now. When I first watched it I wasn't too sure on it, but after rewatching it I bloody loved it.


----------



## Nervosa

TaylorFitz said:


> I don't think a match has to follow any specific formula in all honesty. If a work over segment fits into the context of the story they are trying to tell in the ring than it should be used. If it isn't needed to tell the story that the wrestlers want to tell in the ring than I honestly don't think they need a lengthy control segment just because that's what a wrestling match is "supposed" to have.


Really good post, man, especially because it seems to vocalize a lot of other peoples' thoughts on the subject. 

Just for my peace of mind, can you give me some examples of matches that had good stories but not the traditional formula. I honestly can't say I know of very many.

I ask this for this reason: In film, books, and pretty much every storytelling medium, tension and conflict is key, and I think for there to be tension and conflict, you have to get knocked on your ass for a good part of the story. That way, if it ends in triumph, or at least recovery, it MEANS something because of what you had to recover from. I can't even really picture a good story without this kind of conflict, so I was just curious. 

Even the original Dragon Gate 6 man, which was renowned not for its story but for its action, had a workover period in order to build tension.



lewieG said:


> I agree with Taylor, matches don't have to follow a set formula. Over a show, I want variety, with some 'showcase' style matches/some traditional face vs heel style matches etc, not a collection of matches which were put together using a diagram or a formula.


I want to address this quickly, because this is something I wanted to avoid. I don't mean that EVERY match should have this formula: the undercard ones certainly don't require it. I wanted to make it clear when I posed this question that I was only referring to MOTY quality matches. I certainly don't require this formula to enjoy undercard matches. 



R.Scorpio said:


> I think a work over session is important, especially in a heel v face match. I've never thought about a set length for said work over period. Does getting like a hit or two in before getting cut off still count as a work over period without opponent getting offense? Anyway I think a semi recent example Strong v Richards matches. The only one I truly loved was there match from Atlanta and I guess a lot of that was because Davey had to make comebacks as Strong dominated in comparison to their other matches which were probably way too back and forth.
> 
> But if we had a face v face match I'm not sure if I feel as if we need long control segments as long as the story of the match is still clear.


I actually totally agree with your Roderick/Davey thing. Their match at Final Battle infuriated me. 

interesting about the face vs. face dynamic. hmmm.



jawbreaker said:


> I mark my ass off for good heel work, which of course can't happen without good babyface work. Shit like Kevin Steen vs. Player Dos from last year, and Chris Hero vs. El Generico from the same show, stand out to me because of the great character dynamics, and no matter how good the action is, I will never like a match like Elgin/Edwards.[.quote]
> 
> Love all of this. This goes along with Scorpio's post that 99% of heel/face matches can benefit from the formula.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I like matches that build to a finish, that have moments that stick out in my mind as emblematic of the story, and above all, matches that make sense. If I'm yelling "what the fuck are you doing that for" at the screen, then the match sucks. Period. It's why I gave up on WWE: too much emphasis on gradually increasing disconnected spots for nothing but a crowd reaction.
> 
> Wrestling doesn't have to be perfectly realistic, there's always going to be an element of showmanship and suspension of disbelief, but it's got to work within the rules it creates for itself. I'll buy that a Shooting Star Press is a finisher, sure. I won't buy that Sami Callihan's opponent will tap out to a Stretch Muffler without any work on the leg.
> 
> 
> 
> This summarizes my current problem's with WWE and ROH's match formulas for their 'big matches.' No one ever seems to have enough control to make the final moves mean anything. The one exception for me is Christian vs. Orton, from OTL, but their last match at summerslam didn't have any control that I could really see. Which is a shame, because the action, in particularly the counters were incredible.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Basically I don't think a traditional workover/comeback structure is necessary, so long as there is a clear structure and/or solid character dynamics.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I know you were drunk when you wrote this, but do you have examples of this?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think solid character dynamics beget good structure, and vice versa, most of the time. Action is important, but there are no circumstances where action outweighs logic. I really want to say that I don't think less of people who disagree with me on this point. To value action over logic, in my opinion, is to favor short-term gratification over actual quality, and that's what leads to people like Eddie Edwards and Sami Callihan getting pushed and wasting main event slots.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> This. Especially the Edwards part.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There are great wrestling matches out there of all different styles, some super-traditional workover/comeback formula stuff (BDK/3.0 from Eye to Eye), some crazy all-out sprints (Future Shock/Kings of Wrestling from Honor Takes Centre Stage Night 2), some just pure clinical showcases (Hero/Shelley from As the Worm Turns), but all of them make logical sense. That, in my opinion, is what makes a wrestling match good. It's why I think Paul London is a top ten wrestler of the last decade and I have no use for Kurt Angle.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I do want to once again point out what I said above: I'm not asking if the formula is necessary for all matches ( it would never work for F/shock vs. Kings, for example) but just with the very best matches of the year.
> 
> 
> 
> antoniomare007 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I guess you are talking about the Summerslam matches? Did anyone think those were the match of the year?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yeah, it seemed like everyone did. Most people seemed to give christian/orton ****1/2
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To me, it can be overlooked if the match has enough good/great additional things to "balance things out" so to speak. Mainly crowd reaction and drama.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> But then again, how is drama built without workover and comeback? Are you talking about pre-match hype like for the first Cena/punk?
> 
> 
> thanks everyone for dialoging about this. Keep it up.
Click to expand...


----------



## 777

Nervosa said:


> I want to address this quickly, because this is something I wanted to avoid. I don't mean that EVERY match should have this formula: the undercard ones certainly don't require it. I wanted to make it clear when I posed this question that I was only referring to MOTY quality matches. I certainly don't require this formula to enjoy undercard matches.
> 
> This summarizes my current problem's with WWE and ROH's match formulas for their 'big matches.' No one ever seems to have enough control to make the final moves mean anything. The one exception for me is Christian vs. Orton, from OTL, but their last match at summerslam didn't have any control that I could really see. Which is a shame, because the action, in particularly the counters were incredible.


Sorry to cut in on the convo, I love reading you guys' posts by the way.

Just want to point out that often MOTY quality matches/candidates are in the under-card. 

Your criticism of Orton/Christian is valid and fair (depending on personal tastes). However, I would like to point out that the escalation and lack of long term 'control' in their matches has been purposeful. While OTL still holds up as my personal fav, as I (like you) personally enjoy the longer work-overs, the matches have effectively captured the idea that as the two wrestle the counters come more and more frequently. 

I had even become leery at one point on whether or not I 'wanted' to see Orton v Christian, yet again. Only to be amazed and thoroughly entertained, yet again, with another stellar and 'unique' performance. This series, on the heels of a decent Punk feud, has cemented Orton in my mind an excellent in-ring talent, with great psychology. 

Christian and the Viper have painted a much larger picture, though each match easily stands alone. 

Cheers!


----------



## Bubz

I have to agree, Orton has really, really impressed me this year. He was so good in the SS match. I loved how they countered almost everything, the only thing I didn't like was Christian just getting destroyed for the last 3 or so minutes, I felt bad for the guy lol.


----------



## jawbreaker

I gave Roderick Strong vs. Willie Mack ****1/4 despite it not having all that much in the way of control segments. It had a super great character dynamic and action that fit in well with that dynamic, which created a very compelling story. I also don't think Tanahashi/Goto did too much of a control segment, but you didn't like that match.

I think there's a lot to be said for a story that's just characters interacting, if it's done well. "Characters interacting" does not mean crowd reaction, it does not mean shoehorning in a couple spots to remind the audience that the wrestlers have characters, it does not mean throwing logic out the window because "that's his character" (Punk/Hardy TLC anyone?). It means prolonged, logical character interaction that by itself creates a compelling story. It's easy to do with heel vs. face, and that's when the workover/comeback formula works best. It's also definitely possible with face vs. face and even heel vs. heel sometimes, but too many matches fall into the trap of going solely for crowd reaction. Batista/Cena and Angle/Hardy might be the most notable examples of why face vs. face is easy to get wrong.


----------



## antoniomare007

Nervosa said:


> But then again, how is drama built without workover and comeback? Are you talking about pre-match hype like for the first Cena/punk?


It can happen in a sprint or in a very even matchup. Sekimoto vs Tanaka was never about any of them making a comeback, but just about to explosive guys ramming against each other to see who was the most badass motherfucker of the 2 and if Tanaka was going to be able to beat the giant to advance to the Finals. That made the crowd go wild and believe that both of them could win, which led to very good nearfalls. Now, idk if I would put that match in my top 5 of the year but it was still great. And hell, you might hate it because of how it was structured, but I didn't have any issues with it. My point is that you can have drama without a workover, sprint (although I wouldn't call Daisuke vs Tanaka sprint as they wrestled for 30 minutes, lol).

The Cena/Punk situation is a rare example this days because the stips of the match actually meant something and were believable. And you also had an unique crowd who kept things interesting for me throughout. 

I'm just not the kind of guy who sees a match and as soon as something wrong happens (no selling, botch, weak workover, etc) goes "Ok, I can't consider this a great match after *this* -insert flaw- happened".


----------



## Nervosa

AbismoNegro777 said:


> Sorry to cut in on the convo, I love reading you guys' posts by the way.
> 
> Just want to point out that often MOTY quality matches/candidates are in the under-card.


This is a great point; I really pigeonholed undercard matches in that statement, which is wrong. I just meant that statement to speak to the variety found on a card.



> Your criticism of Orton/Christian is valid and fair (depending on personal tastes). However, I would like to point out that the escalation and lack of long term 'control' in their matches has been purposeful. While OTL still holds up as my personal fav, as I (like you) personally enjoy the longer work-overs, the matches have effectively captured the idea that as the two wrestle the counters come more and more frequently.


See, I would agree that the lack of control is purposeful if it wasn't for the fact that WWE always seems to do that with most of their big matches these days, especially in their brawls. 



antoniomare007 said:


> It can happen in a sprint or in a very even matchup. Sekimoto vs Tanaka was never about any of them making a comeback, but just about to explosive guys ramming against each other to see who was the most badass motherfucker of the 2 and if Tanaka was going to be able to beat the giant to advance to the Finals. That made the crowd go wild and believe that both of them could win, which led to very good nearfalls. Now, idk if I would put that match in my top 5 of the year but it was still great. And hell, you might hate it because of how it was structured, but I didn't have any issues with it. My point is that you can have drama without a workover, sprint (although I wouldn't call Daisuke vs Tanaka sprint as they wrestled for 30 minutes, lol).
> 
> The Cena/Punk situation is a rare example this days because the stips of the match actually meant something and were believable. And you also had an unique crowd who kept things interesting for me throughout.
> 
> I'm just not the kind of guy who sees a match and as soon as something wrong happens (no selling, botch, weak workover, etc) goes "Ok, I can't consider this a great match after *this* -insert flaw- happened".


That's very fair. To me, seeing a botch really does ruin a match for me. Even when I love the match and still rate it high, I end up thinking: man....how great would it have been if they had just hit that spot correctly? 

Thanks for the example...I wish I had seen the match to truly take in what you're saying, but you had a good description. 



jawbreaker said:


> I gave Roderick Strong vs. Willie Mack ****1/4 despite it not having all that much in the way of control segments. It had a super great character dynamic and action that fit in well with that dynamic, which created a very compelling story. I also don't think Tanahashi/Goto did too much of a control segment, but you didn't like that match.
> 
> I think there's a lot to be said for a story that's just characters interacting, if it's done well. "Characters interacting" does not mean crowd reaction, it does not mean shoehorning in a couple spots to remind the audience that the wrestlers have characters, it does not mean throwing logic out the window because "that's his character" (Punk/Hardy TLC anyone?). It means prolonged, logical character interaction that by itself creates a compelling story. It's easy to do with heel vs. face, and that's when the workover/comeback formula works best. It's also definitely possible with face vs. face and even heel vs. heel sometimes, but too many matches fall into the trap of going solely for crowd reaction. Batista/Cena and Angle/Hardy might be the most notable examples of why face vs. face is easy to get wrong.


I always go back and forth on whether or not I should see Strong/Mack...so many people one here were down on it. I do hate Tana/Goto, although I kinda liked your explanation of the start-stop-start leg workover. Still, I think it was too disjointed to create all that much tension. I also don't get the neckwork on that one, at all. Even so, your point is that yu thought hte match pulled a good story from no workover, and I can kinda agree with you based on the action alone, but I really do not think the action was enough to make it a great match. 

'Characters interacting' is another good concept, and I think my opinion is that the workoever/comeback formula is the best way to pull it off in a majority of big matches.


----------



## antoniomare007

Nervosa said:


> I think my opinion is that the workoever/comeback formula is the best way to pull it off in a majority of big matches.


I think we can all agree with that, lol


----------



## Chismo

CM Punk vs John Cena (WWE SummerSlam)

Awesome match, on par with the MITB encounter, but this one missed the final chapter. *****1/4*


----------



## jawbreaker

Nervosa, give Strong/Mack a watch if you feel like it. Knowing your tastes, I don't think you'll like it all that much, but Strong is becoming a really good character guy and that match might be the best example. Great action, super hot crowd, and some really good character work. It doesn't build all that well but it's a good story and a blast to watch.

Also I don't know why you haven't watched Sekimoto/Hidaka yet. That's like, textbook Nervosa style match right there.


----------



## Nervosa

jawbreaker said:


> Also I don't know why you haven't watched Sekimoto/Hidaka yet. That's like, textbook Nervosa style match right there.


Do you mean Tanaka? That's the one Antonio was referring too. 

Either way, I haven't seen any Sekimoto singles matches this year.

Also, I finally have Summerslam snowflakes

Christian vs. Orton
****
So, this Cena/Punk really roll up out entire discussion on how necessary workover/comeback is in a match. For me, these two matches are about as good as 'action alone,' can get you without any actual story. The spots here were amazing, and the counters that seemed to set up the big spots were even better. There were some logical problems in this match, but nothing nearly as bad as Taker/HHH earlier this year. In all honestly, this probably should have been what Taker/Trips should have looked like. Even so, I hated Christian taking the RKO on the table and then recovering first.

Cena vs. Punk
****1/4
Ok, as far as content goes, this is a bazillion times better than their first match. The action is better, the counters are better, and most importantly, it was actually clean. The major problem is that there is, again, no meaning behind the moves because there isn't a story stringing them together. The first match had a better story, this one was clean and had better action. The sloppiness was bad enough in the first match that this one gets the edge, but just barely. 

in the end, antonio is right: neither is really a MOTYC, in my opinion.


----------



## Bubz

Glad to see you liked Cena/Punk as ****1/4 is still a good rating. I thought this one had just as good a story as the first match to be honest, and the action in the ring was superb and way ahead of the MITB match. Cena really showed everyone something here. The finishing stretch is my favorite of the year, the strike exchange was breathtaking.

Nervosa, you should check out Hero/Tozawa from PWG ASW8. My favorite match of the year that told an amazing story and had a great character dynamic. I think you could definitely find something to dig about it lol. Have you seen their first match from last year? As this one plays off that one very well.


----------



## GOD OF CUNT

Dick Togo v Antonio Honda (DDT, 1/30/11)
- This was seriously fantastic, and if I actually bother to watch any more matches from Japan this year I'll be shocked if anything manages to top it. Togo is 6 months shy of retirement here and he is totally the Edwin van der Sar of wrestling. Van der Sar retired from football/soccer at the age of 40, and he went out as one of the best goalkeepers in the world, arguably as good as he had ever been. Togo goes out at the age of 42, at a time where he looks like an honest to goodness best in the world candidate. I can't say I've ever seen Antonio Honda before, but a quick check tells me he's normally a comedy wrestler. Well fuck that because on this night he tosses that shit out the window and punches Dick Togo right in the fucking face. Togo is the star here, but Honda absolutely holds his own and looked great in the process (although for all I know he could be good in general). Honda comes out the blocks and zeroes in on Togo's arm, cranking on a hammerlock, yanking him down to the mat, refusing to let him get any breathing space. Togo's selling, especially the way he screams in pain any time Honda torques on a hold, is really awesome. He tries to go for the Pedigree early on and can't hook it with the bad arm, so Honda reverses it. He does that spot three times over the course of the match before eventually succeeding (and that's not until we're about 20 minutes in). At the ten minute mark Honda goes for a tope and winds up getting his forehead cut open, so Togo rams his head into the post and starts stomping on the cut. Honda's comeback is AMAZING. Togo's repeatedly blasting his head off the turnbuckle and Honda goes one hundred fucking percent Jerry Lawler on him, dropping the strap and unloading with a huge flurry of punches. Over the course of the second half of the match I lost count of the number of straight up AWESOME punches. I mean my God this was some Lawler/Dundee shit right. Phil Schneider talked about this a few months back and already made a "Mid South Coliseum main event" comparison, so I feel pretty cheap busting out the Lawler/Dundee line, but really, it might be the closest thing to a classic Memphis brawl that I've ever seen in Japan and if YOU'VE seen something like Lawler/Dundee or Lawler/Dutch, YOU will instantly be giddified at the similarities. The double knock down spot is just out of this world great. How does a match that's happening in non-FUTEN finisher overkill current Japanese wrestling manage to get a fucking PUNCH over as a legit nearfall? Togo is the fucking greatest. I would give this twelve stars.


----------



## jawbreaker

Nervosa said:


> Do you mean Tanaka? That's the one Antonio was referring too.
> 
> Either way, I haven't seen any Sekimoto singles matches this year.


Nope, Hidaka. ZERO-1 show from New Year's Day. I had it at ****1/4 originally. Might up it on another watch.


----------



## seabs

Nervosa said:


> Do you mean Tanaka? That's the one Antonio was referring too.
> 
> Either way, I haven't seen any Sekimoto singles matches this year.
> 
> Also, I finally have Summerslam snowflakes
> 
> Christian vs. Orton
> ****
> So, this Cena/Punk really roll up out entire discussion on how necessary workover/comeback is in a match. For me, these two matches are about as good as 'action alone,' *can get you without any actual story*. The spots here were amazing, and the counters that seemed to set up the big spots were even better. There were some logical problems in this match, but nothing nearly as bad as Taker/HHH earlier this year. In all honestly, this probably should have been what Taker/Trips should have looked like. Even so, I hated Christian taking the RKO on the table and then recovering first.
> 
> Cena vs. Punk
> ****1/4
> Ok, as far as content goes, this is a bazillion times better than their first match. The action is better, the counters are better, and most importantly, it was actually clean. The major problem is that there is, again, no meaning behind the moves because there isn't a story stringing them together. The first match had a better story, this one was clean and had better action. The sloppiness was bad enough in the first match that this one gets the edge, but just barely.
> 
> in the end, antonio is right: neither is really a MOTYC, in my opinion.


*You seriously didn't think there was any story or psychology in that match. How many of their other matches have you seen because they play off the first match and MITB multiple times. I mentioned them all in my review if you want to search that out, maybe you just missed them but I definitely wouldn't say there was no story or anything like attached to it. Maybe it would seem that way if you view it as a stand alone match I dunno. *


bubz123 said:


> Glad to see you liked Cena/Punk as ****1/4 is still a good rating. I thought this one had just as good a story as the first match to be honest, and the action in the ring was superb and way ahead of the MITB match. Cena really showed everyone something here. The finishing stretch is my favorite of the year, the strike exchange was breathtaking.
> 
> *Nervosa, you should check out Hero/Tozawa from PWG ASW8.* My favorite match of the year that told an amazing story and had a great character dynamic. I think you could definitely find something to dig about it lol. Have you seen their first match from last year? As this one plays off that one very well.


*After what you said on the last page about workover/comeback and shit I imagine you'll really like Hero/Tozawa if you watch some Tozawa in PWG to familiarise yourself with the story of his PWG run and his series with Hero. Hero/Tozawa from BOLA 10 and Kings vs Steen/Tozawa should do the job.*


----------



## Nervosa

Seabs said:


> *You seriously didn't think there was any story or psychology in that match. How many of their other matches have you seen because they play off the first match and MITB multiple times. I mentioned them all in my review if you want to search that out, maybe you just missed them but I definitely wouldn't say there was no story or anything like attached to it. Maybe it would seem that way if you view it as a stand alone match I dunno. *


Don't get me wrong, I love 'feud callbacks,' and I totally understand how the finish and the face-spit thing works into that...but that didn't make the match itself have a story. This goes back to my workover/comeback formula, and that just wasn't here. Again, no one had control enough to feel like the other one ever had to make a comeback. 

Trust me, I loved the callbacks, I just need more to say the match itself had a story.



> *After what you said on the last page about workover/comeback and shit I imagine you'll really like Hero/Tozawa if you watch some Tozawa in PWG to familiarise yourself with the story of his PWG run and his series with Hero. Hero/Tozawa from BOLA 10 and Kings vs Steen/Tozawa should do the job.*


I have both of those matches queued up to be watched very soon. Loved Tozawa in DG so I'm looking forward to this. 

I'm just now realizing there have been more than one Hero/Tozawa matches. May backtrack to see the BOLA '10 match so I enjoy this years' more.


----------



## Chismo

*Fit Finlay vs Sami Callihan (EVOLVE 9)*

I watched this today, and this is my first ever Evolve match. Man, Finlay was awesome here. I've seen Callihan before and I don't like him really, so it was very nice and cool to see him getting pwned by Finlay. Props to Finlay, he got me into Evolve now. I've seen some YT clips, I guess their best matches are Bryan/Fish, Bryan/Taylor, Bryan/Sawa, am I right? *****1/4*


----------



## jawbreaker

Danielson/Taylor never happened.

Hero/Hidaka, TJP/Sawa, Castagnoli/Fish, Castagnoli/Taylor are also all great.


----------



## Chismo

Thanks.


----------



## Bubz

I really didn't like Finlay/Callihan. Finlay was good, but that wasn't enough to save it for me, Callihan is horrible. I liked the leg submissions by Finlay, but it was just a bit pointless other than to show that he can still do cool looking stuff in the ring.

I might rewatch Hero/Tozawa tonight after talking about it. And @ nervosa, you should definitely watch their BOLA 10 match first, as it should definitely add to your enjoyment of the second match (it is great on it's own aswell though).


----------



## seabs

Nervosa said:


> Don't get me wrong, I love 'feud callbacks,' and I totally understand how the finish and the face-spit thing works into that...but that didn't make the match itself have a story. This goes back to my workover/comeback formula, and that just wasn't here. Again, no one had control enough to feel like the other one ever had to make a comeback.
> 
> Trust me, I loved the callbacks, I just need more to say the match itself had a story.


*There was the story with them going finishers at regular intervals but their opponents not being worn down enough so they get back to the weapons to wear them down more for their finishers which I liked as a little story. I dunno, maybe it stood out more because WWE matches aren't as common for having great stories attached to them as regularly as other promotions so maybe it stood out more to me because of that. 

I don't think the workover/comeback formula was needed in the case of Orton/Christian or even Punk/Cena as they worked the back and forth not much between them deal really well. With the workover/comeback formula you need a strong heel/face dynamic or else there's little point to it. Punk/Cena didn't have that and Orton/Christian was NHB so it would have been out of place in that gimmick.

I can see where you're coming from with loving a formula of a match so much and then when you get a different formula you're kinda down because you think it would have been more appealing to you if they did a workover/comeback match that you enjoy so much. I'm the same with STF tags. A lot of the time with modern day tags when they tease a long FIP segment and then they just tag and out and start going back and forth it kinda kills the match for me a little because of how much I love STF and I honestly wouldn't be opposed to every tag match being that formula apart from in special main event type cases.*


----------



## GOD OF CUNT

bubz123 said:


> I really didn't like Finlay/Callihan. Finlay was good, but that wasn't enough to save it for me, Callihan is horrible. I liked the leg submissions by Finlay, but it was just a bit pointless other than to show that he can still do cool looking stuff in the ring.


How is Callihan horrible? I'm genuinely curious as to why people seem to hate him, because I watched this today and I'm not understanding how he was horrible at all. Finlay was fucking awesome, but Callihan was perfectly fine at getting his ass stomped, being defiant and trying to give it right back. He has some goofy facial expressions, but most guys on the indys these days ham it up to shit, anyway. This is the only Callihan match I've seen, but if THAT guy goes into the "horrible" category then the state of current indy wrestling is way worse than I thought. 

The leg stuff was fine. Finlay stretching the shit out of him fit with the whole story. Didn't necessarily "pay off", but how often does "limb work" in indy wrestling actually pay off these days?

I get that what I look for in wrestling is bordering on the polar opposite of the large majority of people that post on WF (I'd guess this section in particular) at this point, but watching Finlay/Callihan today honestly had me scratching my head at why some people detest Callihan. 

And Finlay/Calliah is probably my MOTY (from all of the 10 or 11 matches I've watched), just as an aside.


----------



## smitlick

Andy3000 said:


> How is Callihan horrible? I'm genuinely curious as to why people seem to hate him, because I watched this today and I'm not understanding how he was horrible at all. Finlay was fucking awesome, but Callihan was perfectly fine at getting his ass stomped, being defiant and trying to give it right back. He has some goofy facial expressions, but most guys on the indys these days ham it up to shit, anyway. This is the only Callihan match I've seen, but if THAT guy goes into the "horrible" category then the state of current indy wrestling is way worse than I thought.
> 
> The leg stuff was fine. Finlay stretching the shit out of him fit with the whole story. Didn't necessarily "pay off", but how often does "limb work" in indy wrestling actually pay off these days?
> 
> I get that what I look for in wrestling is bordering on the polar opposite of the large majority of people that post on WF (I'd guess this section in particular) at this point, but watching Finlay/Callihan today honestly had me scratching my head at why some people detest Callihan.
> 
> And Finlay/Calliah is probably my MOTY (from all of the 10 or 11 matches I've watched), just as an aside.


Maybe before asking how hes awful, you should go watch more than just the one above average Callihan match?


----------



## Bubz

Well, I just dont like the guy, maybe horrible was a bit harsh, as he wasn't as bad as usual in this match. His facial expressions and mannerism's go beyond even Davey's though and he just looks like a retard when he does it. He also usualy has terrible psychology and logic in his matches, but didn't get to show off that skill in this one.

I just wasn't into the match, I can't explain why really, maybe it was because they kept stalling and having face off's all the way through or the fact that non of Callihan's offense looked good at all, they went to the outside like 4 times and did the same spot with Callihan going into the guardrail every time. The structure was decent as it was basically Callihan trying to make a comeback the whole time, but the way they did it I just wasn't a fan of. I don't know, maybe i'll rewatch it today seeing as how everyone else is raving about it.


----------



## GOD OF CUNT

smitlick said:


> Maybe before asking how hes awful, you should go watch more than just the one above average Callihan match?


The fuck are you talking about?

I asked because I was genuinely curious about what people around here think is wrong with him. I wasn't defending him as a wrestler. I WAS defending his performance in the Finlay match, but me asking why people think he's horrible wasn't a roundabout way of saying I disagree with the assessment. I can't disagree with the assessment (as you astutely pointed out, for all I know he's only had the one good match) because I literally haven't seen enough TO disagree.



bubz123 said:


> none of Callihan's offense looked good at all


I can't really comment on most of the other criticisms of Callihan, since they either don't apply to the Finlay match ("He also usualy has terrible psychology and logic in his matches, but didn't get to show off that skill in this one") or it's just a difference in personal preferences/tastes ("The structure was decent as it was basically Callihan trying to make a comeback the whole time, but the way they did it I just wasn't a fan of"), but that point honestly doesn't make any sense to me. 

How did his offence not look good? His chops all looked and sounded nasty, he rifled off a couple brutal bicycle kicks right to Finlay's mouth (the first one looked crazy as fuck), cracked him with a quick right hand that looked like it loosened Finlay's teeth, hit a death valley driver, an impressive out of nowhere backdrop driver...I'm not recalling a single instance of his offence not looking at least "decent". I mean, I guess he doesn't have the best looking tope or baseball slide, but any time he tried that he wound up getting chucked into the barricade (the baseball slide attempts) or he gave himself a fucking tracheostomy off the missed tope.


----------



## Fighter Daron

I like Callihan, he's a mad son of a bitch that hits hard. I love that.


----------



## Bubz

I liked the first Bycicle Kick alot actualy. His chops looked awful though and so did that backdrop driver IMO.

What I meant was that I would have preferred it if Callihan had got some offense in at the start, then been dominated for the majority, then made a comeback at the end instead of making a comeback every 2 minutes, stalling to have a face off or pushing match and then getting worked over again for a few minutes, repeat cycle. I just wasn't a fan of how they laid out the match that's all.


----------



## jawbreaker

Callihan is terrible when he's doing something other than getting the shit beat out of him. I don't doubt that the Finlay match could be good but that's because it's goddamn Finlay.


----------



## Chismo

I'm actually fine with Callihan's in-ring work and strategies (although his selling sucks sometimes). What I don't like is his annoying personality. And in pro-wrestling, Personality *>* In-ring work.


> Didn't necessarily "pay off", but how often does "limb work" in indy wrestling actually pay off these days?


It never does. Anywhere.


----------



## Bubz

Claudio/Generico from PWG, that's why it is in the top 5 matches this year .

Okay, I just rewatched _Finlay/Callihan_, and I was way too harsh on it as I liked it a lot more this time around. Maybe I wasn't in the mood yesterday I don't know, but I kind of feel like a dick now lol. I still wouldn't call it any where near a MOTYC, but it is a really good match. Finlay is awesome. ***1/2


----------



## Nervosa

Seabs said:


> *There was the story with them going finishers at regular intervals but their opponents not being worn down enough so they get back to the weapons to wear them down more for their finishers which I liked as a little story. I dunno, maybe it stood out more because WWE matches aren't as common for having great stories attached to them as regularly as other promotions so maybe it stood out more to me because of that. *




Perhaps. I guess I still wanted to see Orton have to dig down and have a comeback, and I didn't. I do think the finisher attempt point was kinda there, but noit as strong, for me. It only seemed to happen a couple times, and it was usually more as a result of a counter than an excuse to go use more weapons. 



> I don't think the workover/comeback formula was needed in the case of Orton/Christian or even Punk/Cena as they worked the back and forth not much between them deal really well. With the workover/comeback formula you need a strong heel/face dynamic or else there's little point to it. Punk/Cena didn't have that and Orton/Christian was NHB so it would have been out of place in that gimmick.


Yeah, I see what you mean here. This was the kinda thing I wanted to discuss when I brought the formula up in the first place. I guess I'm just at a point where I think the formula always makes matches better, even in NHB or face vs. face matches. (and lets face it....the fact that they couldn't let punk win clean means they are NOT ready to admit he's a face at all.}



> I can see where you're coming from with loving a formula of a match so much and then when you get a different formula you're kinda down* because you think it would have been more appealing to you if they did a workover/comeback match that you enjoy so much.* I'm the same with STF tags. A lot of the time with modern day tags when they tease a long FIP segment and then they just tag and out and start going back and forth it kinda kills the match for me a little because of how much I love STF and I honestly wouldn't be opposed to every tag match being that formula apart from in special main event type cases.[/I][/B]


But is it really a 'different formula' or just random, albeit clever, spot? How does that formula actually tell a story within the confines of a match? At least in workover/comeback, the moves themselves contribute to the bigger picture. In the callback spots you mentioned, even the GREAT ones, they didn't contribute to an overall flow in the match. They were still just one guy doing a bunch of spots (clever spots, I'll grant you) until the other guy counters and then hits some of his spots. (again, clever, but still only spots that don't contribute to an over-arching story)

I think the bolded part is very, very true, for me. The main reason I am disappointed with the two Summerslam matches is that I think both could have gone from good to amazing if there was just a comeback of some kind. 

Also, I have no idea what you mean when you say STF and FIP tag formula. Can you elaborate?


----------



## WOOLCOCK

Southern tag formula was employed a lot in Mid South/Memphis/WCW tags. Essentially for the opening 5 minutes or so the faces dominate the heels, i.e they work comedy spots with the heels bumping into each other, eating arm drags and dropkicks or power moves etc. This all builds and builds until the transition spot where the heels injure a face through shenanigans (in the Midnight Express matches Cornette usually managed to interfere and set up the transition spot) and the Face In Peril (FIP) segment of the match begins. From here the heels cheat behind the ref's back (choking etc) and work over 1 face who sells his ass off and they build to the hot tag to make it an important moment. They'll tease a hot tag and then have the heels stop it at the last minute before finally making the tag and then they move into the finishing stretch where the fresh babyface dominates the heels and we get nearfalls and brawling with bodies flying everywhere.


----------



## Nervosa

Segunda Caida said:


> Southern tag formula was employed a lot in Mid South/Memphis/WCW tags. Essentially for the opening 5 minutes or so the faces dominate the heels, i.e they work comedy spots with the heels bumping into each other, eating arm drags and dropkicks or power moves etc. This all builds and builds until the transition spot where the heels injure a face through shenanigans (in the Midnight Express matches Cornette usually managed to interfere and set up the transition spot) and the Face In Peril (FIP) segment of the match begins. From here the heels cheat behind the ref's back (choking etc) and work over 1 face who sells his ass off and they build to the hot tag to make it an important moment. They'll tease a hot tag and then have the heels stop it at the last minute before finally making the tag and then they move into the finishing stretch where the fresh babyface dominates the heels and we get nearfalls and brawling with bodies flying everywhere.


Thanks for explaining, man! I actually knew what both of those were, I had just never seen it abbreviated that way. Love the explanation, though. Thanks man. 

that said, I agree Seabs....thats the way it should be done!


----------



## WOOLCOCK

Agreed. You haven't seen the best of what wrestling has to offer if you've never seen the spot from the Rock n Roll Express vs Heavenly Bodies match from Superbrawl III:

Lane whips Morton into the turnbuckle and Gibson runs to the corner and parks his body there to absorb the impact. Morton then sets up the same spot Lane attempted and Pritchard runs over to copy Gibson only for Morton to fake him out and whip Lane back into the opposite corner and have Gibson boot Pritchard in the stomach for his troubles.

Cornette also takes the most amazing bump off of a shoulder block that you need to see. His falling on a banana skin sell afterwards was just the cheery on top. God I love Jim Cornette.


----------



## seabs

*Kevin Steen vs PAC - PWG Eight*
_Man this was super fun to watch. Read a report on it that said it was more of a comedy match than a great match. Well it was both. They started off doing some comedy stuff which was nice and then they slowly transitioned that into a awesome little match. There's several spots that legit made me scream out and I don't do that often. The spike DDT off the top rope was nuts. Steen looked like a legit top guy too rather than just a guy with a great character having good matches that are very fun to watch because of his shtick._

*****1/4*


----------



## Bubz

I'm sure this has been posted and asked a few times before in here, but what are the MOTYC's from the G1 Climax? I heard it was one of the best tournament's they have ever done.


----------



## antoniomare007

There are a lot of matches worth watching (I mean in the 4 starsz range, if you are into ratings), every night had 1, 2 or sometimes 3 very entertaining matches. Still, Tenzan vs Nakamura and Yano vs Tanahashi would be the 2 that would be in real discussions about MOTYC, with Nakamura/Kojima, Nakamura/Suzuki and the finals being borderline, IMO.

The last day of the tournament is one the best shows of the year too.


----------



## Bubz

Thanks mate, i'll make sure I check those out. I've not seen much of Nakamura, i've heard good things though.


----------



## Chismo

Anyone seen Tanahashi/Bernard? How is it?


----------



## antoniomare007

That show hasn't hit the net yet, it's pretty weird.


----------



## Chismo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=db6Jv20dUhs


----------



## antoniomare007

wait, what the...


----------



## Bubz

Lol, youtube is full of surprises.

*PWG Eight - Steen vs Pac*
Like Seabs said, this was really fun. Steen is so awesome right now, and he came out with some really funny shit in this one. Pac is rather great these days aswell, and some of the stuff he does always impresses me, especially now that the guy is huge. That reverse 450 splash or whatever the hell it you want to call it was insane. Pac can pull off these things, yet he is definitely not a spotmonkey, unlike someone like Evans. ****

*PWG Eight - Claudio vs Hero*
I absolutely loved this. It started out with the guys going hold for hold with some great looking mat work for a while, and then Claudio gets completely cocky and starts acting like a dick towards Hero after he gets the upper hand in some of the exchanges. I expected Hero to be the one acting like a dick, as kayfabe wise Claudio is considered 'Hero's young boy' as Hero himself put it.

Claudio then gets control of Hero's leg, and works over it like a mother! I mean, he worked on the leg for about 20 minutes straight with Hero getting barely any offense in at all, and it was awesome as he managed to keep it interesting. Some stuff looked incredibly nasty like the dragon screw off the top rope. Claudio just acts like an absolute bastard throughout, he even throws a chair at Hero on the outside for no reason, and Hero looks at him like 'seriously mate? WTF?'. I loved this little story of Claudio now seeing himself as better than Hero, so he tries to prove it by seemingly throwing all friendship out the window while Hero lookes confused/annoyed that he is acting like a dick.

Hero then gets some offense in after gaining the upper hand and always sells the leg well, but Claudio is constantly there to go back to the leg, all the way to the finish were it ends on a submission, much like the Generico match. Both men but especially Claudio are amazing in this match, keeping the limb work going all the way through and ending it on a submission is something that I just love and it makes a match so much more worth it. I have to say I think people will either love it or not think much of it though depending on your taste as it is a very mat based technical match until the last 5 or so minutes and it goes for around 40, but this is the type of thing I love, I just wish the crowd would have been more into it. ****1/2

***** for the aftermath. Awesome stuff PWG.


----------



## Fighter Daron

antoniomare007 said:


> wait, what the...


I downloaded that show more than a month ago, but I haven't seen the match yet.


----------



## The Gargano

*ROH Tag Team Turmoil 2011:* The American Wolves (Davey Richards & Eddie Edwards) vs. Roderick Strong and Michael Elgin- *****1/4*- _awesome tag match, elgin was very impressive and showed he could hang with 3 of the top guys in the company, the stuff these guys did were awesome, and the match never bored me
_
*DGUSA Fearless 2011* Austin Aries vs Johnny Gargano- ******- _i was surprised by how awesome this was, the whole story of the match was just awesome with gargano knowing aries moves and countering them, and then getting under the skin of aries, then gargano having to fight back, just a really good match
_
*DGUSA Fearless 2011* Open the United Gate Title: Masato Yoshino & Pac vs YAMATO & Akira Tozawa ******- _just another awesome dragon gate tag match, since these guys have all worked in dg for awhile i knew this was going to be awesome and it was, just fast paced action throughout, i really enjoyed this_


----------



## antoniomare007

:lmao I remember looking for that show for a long time and then giving up. I guess I just never saw it in the puro media forum with all those threads being upped every day. 

I literally had the







face when I saw that youtube link.




anyways...agreed on the PAC vs Steen love. Only in PWG can a slow and "nothing" start like that one can be so damn entertaining, and once the action picked up it had everything an opener should have.


----------



## seabs

*That's the G1 Tana/Bernard match btw. Their IWGP title match which happened first still hasn't surfaced yet which is really odd.*


----------



## Fighter Daron

Seabs said:


> *That's the G1 Tana/Bernard match btw. Their IWGP title match which happened first still hasn't surfaced yet which is really odd.*


Whaaaaaaaaaaat?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04xAIA2fcS8&feature=player_embedded#

That's not the fucking G1. I downloaded that show the 21st of July.


----------



## smitlick

Yeah that match sure looks like its for the IWGP Title



ROH - Honor Takes Center Stage - Chapter Two

Briscoes vs All Night Express - ****1/4


----------



## Bubz

*NJPW G1 Climax matches: * 

*Nakamura vs Kojima***1/2*
I liked this match, but it wasn't as good as I had hoped. Good action but Kojima didn't sell the arm apart from when he first got kicked in it, and it felt a bit incoherent with Nakamura not deciding what body part he wanted to work over, first the arm, then the mid section and then back to the arm and then just going to strikes. But Nakamuras selling was awesome, he was constantly holding his neck after the ddt spot on the apron and always looked in absolute pain.

*Karl Anderson vs Hirooki Goto *****
Just an awesome back and forth contest. The reversals and counters were great, and Goto's spot were he runs the ropes behind his opponent is cool as fuck, like a better version of the one Marufuji uses. Anderson is really good and is proof that going to Japan can do wonders for your in ring skills and style. Everyone I have seen that has gone over there and wrestled for New Japan has improved so much.

*Tenzan vs Nakamura*****
Great match with the crowd making it even better as they were solidly behind Tenzan. Nakamura just comes across as a cocky little dick who can also back it up in the ring and it's pretty awesome. I was definitely more impressed with him here than the Kojima match.

*Yano vs Tanahashi *****
Wow, the crowd booed the shit out of Tanahashi. I guess they either don't want him to be champ anymore or they didn't want a champ to go forward in the competition. The match itself was probably in the ***1/2 range, but the crowd made it so good, and added alot to the match, as they made Tanahashi heel it up which is so much better than when he is a face.

*Nakamura vs Suzuki ****1/4*
What a match. I think it was only about 12 - 13 minutes long, maybe under, but i'm pretty sure this is the best match of that length i've seen for ages. MiSu is a badass plain and simple, and from what i've seen Nakamura has been the heel all the way through this tournament, but here he plays the face and the crowd gets really behind him and it's awesome. What I loved about it was that it had a kind of shoot style about it, and it all came down to who's strikes were better and basically who was the badest motherfucker out of the two. Just a really great fun and stiff match up.

*Nakamura vs Naito *****
Another great match, this time with a lot more near falls. Just great action in this one from bell to bell. I didn't like it as much as Nakamura/Suzuki but it is pretty close.

So yeah, basically a great set of matches, with Nakamura/Susuki being my favorite as it stood out from the rest.

Planning on watching Go/Akiyama later as I have heard some people rave about it.


----------



## seabs

*The 2 links are different btw. 1st one is the G1 match. 2nd one is the title match by the looks of it as Bernard has both belts but the video is only 22 minutes long and the match went just under 28 minutes so it must be clipped by about 8-10 minutes.*

*Manabu Soya & Seiya Sanada vs Kaz Hayashi & Shuji Kondo - All Asia Tag Team Championships - AJPW 21.08.2011*
_Sanada might be my favourite wrestler atm. He's fucking great as well as in a legit great worker as well being so fucking loveable. He's the fucking star of the show in this one with his selling of the arm and just general awesome babyfacesness (new word ftw?). You don't often get a lengthy FIP segment in modern Puro matches so when you get when it's a nice change, especially one as great as this. Sanada sells the arm perfectly. Using the injured arm for strikes would normally really annoy me but unlike every other Indy geek he sells the fuck out the arm whilst he's trying to fight back with it which also makes you want to get behind him as a babyface even more. Kaz and Kondo are great bully like heels picking on the injured Sanada and just making you want to get behind him even more and get pumped for the hot tag. Once the tag comes it kinda goes into G.M.S.I territory which is a shame but there's some incredible Hayashi/Sanada sequences with some super near falls so it kinda evens it out. Sanada's got his roll up bridge pin over really well and they tease the fuck out of it with Kaz coming up with some sweet counters to it. The night before Hayashi pinned Sanada with a counter to his rollup and they play off that here too. Finish ends up benefiting the teased near falls and teases of Sanada's roll up which was nice. Sanada is just the perfect babyface. Amazing seller, great look, cool moveset and best of all he's so genuinely likeable and easy to get behind._

******


----------



## Bubz

*NOAH 06/08/11 - Go Shiozaki vs Jun Akiyama ****1/2*
Great match with a lot of drama. Go got busted open hard way around the mid point of the match and from then on it got pretty epic. Akiyama played the veteran part well always getting the upper hand in the early minutes of the match, but then it turned into a striking match and Go came out on top. Go was awesome here, as I don't know if he was truly out of it at points or if he was just selling amazingly, but either way it really added to the match. I always like watching Akiyama and he never disapoints in big match situations. I saw the Go/Sugiura match where Go won the belt and the crowd killed that one for me, but thankfully they were into this one especially after Go got busted and the crowd got behind him. There were a few botches like the attempted Go Flasher off the top rope and the piledriver on the outside didn't look very good, but the final minutes were amazing especially when they just started screaming at eachother after the lariat attempts.


----------



## GOD OF CUNT

Daisuke Sekimoto & Yuji Okabayashi v Ryoto Hama & Manabu Soya (BJW, 4/28/11)
- Well shit, I was SHOCKED at how much I liked this. I mean, I had seen enough guys whose opinions I actually take seriously pimping it, so I expected to enjoy it going in...but not as much as I did. HAMA! God damn he was awesome in this. Dude must weigh about 900 pounds and he looks like Taylor Wiley (aka Teila Tuli of "Gerard Gordeau punted my face through my head at UFC 1" fame) if Taylor Wily had a diet consisting entirely of gravy-coated livermush. He is FAT. He's also an All Japan invader so he's booed mercilessly, and he just soaks it up and continues to use his ginormous girth to crush livers and punch people in the head. If a morbidly obese guy walking around flattening a couple of roid heads and glowing with self-satisfaction while a crowd boo him silly isn't your thing, you can go eat sandpaper because we will never be friends. He does a rolling senton, sits on Sekimoto's chest to counter a sunset flip (which looked as chest-crushing as that spot should when a fat guy is doing it), busts out a Vader Bomb that I totally bit on as the finish, throws big Vader-like soup bones in the corner, and best of all stands and laughs when someone tries to shoulderblock him. There's a great spot where Okabayashi comes in off the hot tag and Hama just creams him in 2 seconds flat. If there's a better Ryoto Hama performance out there then I really need to see it. Everybody else was good too, though. Sekimoto has bulked up even more since I last saw him and almost has no neck. His deadlift German suplex still looks kind of slow (although it's an impressive power spot, no doubt) and he has one strike exchange with Soya at the start that was goofy and stupid and pointless, but otherwise I thought he was pretty great. The initial strike exchange was suitably erased from my memory thanks to the fat guy and a later strike exchange that was waaaay better, anyway. Soya probably could've assholed it up a bit more, but he was good too, and Okabayashi was right there with Sekimoto from the home team. His top rope splash looked AWESOME, there's a great spot where he comes out of nowhere to spear Soya and allow Sekimoto to powerbomb Hama from the middle rope (which was as cool as it sounds), and his exchanges with the fat guy were always a ton of fun (he tries to put him in a torture rack at one point!). Finishing stretch was loaded with nearfalls, but I don't think they overdid it thanks to how well they paced everything. Just a Hell of a match that I honestly fucking loved.


----------



## antoniomare007

I loved that match, had everything an interpromotional fight should have (hot crowd, hate and clear faces and heels). Wasn't as good as Daisuke/Oka vs Sanada/Soya I & III but who cares.

And I'm sorry Seabs but I can't cosign the Sanada love, he's good but not THAT good yet. Sometimes (specially in some tags I've seen) he just comes off as bland or just as "another guy". Haven't seen the Suwama defense yet but I'm not a Suwama fan so I don't have enough motivation to watch it 

I'm also glad I wasn't the only one who liked Go vs Akiyama, Go getting busted open the hard way helped the match a lot as they needed something to make the middle portion interesting. Someone has to tell Go to stop attempting top rope moves though, they always end in disaster.


----------



## topper1

antoniomare007 said:


> Haven't seen the Suwama defense yet but I'm not a Suwama fan so I don't have enough motivation to watch it


I had to turn it off mid way through. The work wasn't bad but both guys are so dull imo.


----------



## Bubz

antoniomare007 said:


> I loved that match, had everything an interpromotional fight should have (hot crowd, hate and clear faces and heels). Wasn't as good as Daisuke/Oka vs Sanada/Soya I & III but who cares.
> 
> And I'm sorry Seabs but I can't cosign the Sanada love, he's good but not THAT good yet. Sometimes (specially in some tags I've seen) he just comes off as bland or just as "another guy". Haven't seen the Suwama defense yet but I'm not a Suwama fan so I don't have enough motivation to watch it
> 
> *I'm also glad I wasn't the only one who liked Go vs Akiyama, Go getting busted open the hard way helped the match a lot as they needed something to make the middle portion interesting. Someone has to tell Go to stop attempting top rope moves though, they always end in disaster.*


It did REALLY help the match and it seemed to motivate both of them, I can't see it being as good without it at all, mainly because Go just looked SO fucked after it happened and it was really easy to root for him. I don't like to think about it not happening, because it did and it was bloody awesome lol. One of my favorite matches this year.

That top rope Go Flasher was just fucked from the start lol, it didn't look like either of them knew what was going to happen. Go's moonsault is probably my favorite going right now, it looks fucked sometimes but it's so awesome.


----------



## aaron_mcn92

I don't think much of Sanada in singles, but this is why I'm really hoping they let Akiyama have a run with the TC. Emotional for Akiyama because he never won it in the 90s, and there's no better guy for the young generation to work with and benefit from.


----------



## Bubz

*Go Shiozaki vs Katsuhiko Nakajima - NOAH European Navigation 2011 Night 2*
One helluva match right here. Just awesome back and forth action as it's chop vs kick. Go's chops just come of as ridiculously brutal and he destroys Nakajima with them, at one point he chops him in the fuckin mouth, that was evil man, he's only young. Hard to believe Nakajima is only 23 years old, he is so good and he's only getting better and better and he's already one of if not the best Junior in Japan, scary shit. The finishing stretch is unbelievable and has to be seen. I literally thought Go was knocked out at one point as he gets punted right in the mouth, like payback for the chop he dished out earlier. They managed to get some amazing nearfalls without going overkill aswell so credit to both guys. I just wish it was longer. *****1/2*


----------



## Chismo

^Agreed. Sensational match. Both guys are having great year, especially Go.


----------



## seabs

*Dick Togo vs James Mason - ASWUK 02.08.2011*
_Fun. Fucking fun I tell you. It's more of a holiday resort special attraction type match than a traditional "this is serious sport shit" style stuff but it didn't come off as being tacky and they still had a really good match out of it it too. The match is entirely about the crowd involvement and every single thing they do is designed to get a reaction from the crowd and they do. The place is rocking and when you have a guy on the house mic starting chants and telling the crowd they're not loud enough so that they chant even louder it's hard to not to fail. Togo comes in as the evil foreign outsider against the local hero and Togo heels it up really nicely. I've seen Mason one or two times before in undercard matches and liked him and he was super here. Amazing crowd work, super babyface and he's actually really athletic too and has more to his work than just the usual british style moves. Towards the end they quicken it up and do some really cool little sequences together. Atmosphere for the match is amazing though and when you have that type of fun atmosphere and two guys like Togo and Mason in the ring it's always gonna be fun. This was great as well though. Maybe the most I've enjoyed watching a wrestling match all year. It's under 15 minutes as well so it's perfect for watching at half of time of the football for example and as you can just load it up and watch it with nothing needed to go along with it, no thought as to what's happening, just sit back and enjoy._

******


----------



## smitlick

*PWG - Card Subject To Change III*

*PWG World Tag Team Title Match*
El Generico & Ricochet vs The Young Bucks
***3/4-****


----------



## TelkEvolon

Steen & Tozawa vs Generico & Ricochet - ****1/4

Fun match.


----------



## WOOLCOCK

*Finlay vs Callihan, Evolve 9 26/07/2011*

Amazing, Amazing, Amazing. Finlay is back bitches! The chant of 'you've still got it' needs to be erased from all Finlay matches in future, what you fuckers think he ever lost his ability to be insanely awesome? Match has a great story of underdog looking for respect and unlike a lot of indy matches there was a clear dominator and controller throughout the match with the underdog being given enough offence and moments of excitement to put over his toughness but still make it clear he's fighting to survive instead of being an ass kicker.

Match starts and not 3 seconds has passed before Finlay unleashes arguably the stiffest forearm I've ever seen, even Kawada would have cringed at it and Sami appropriately errrm collapses in a heap and checks to see if his face now resembles someone who's suffered a stroke. Finlay just looks like its 2006 all again and is already someone I'd say who looks a potential Best Wrestler In The World candidate. He's just an insanely sick bastard in this with some of his strikes, especially the headbutt to the bridge of the nose of Callihan after Sami gives him a chop. He also hits what looked like an openhand slap to the throat of Sami which sounded incredibly disgusting and his usual elbows, powerslams and entire offence just looks so vicious and brutal. Sami busting out Finlay's ring apron spot to cut him dead in his tracks and unleash some fucking sickening chops and one big boot was a tremendous spot on his part and progressed the veteran vs newcomer storyline brilliantly.

Sami himself was also really good here, he is a guy with over the top facial expressions and mannerisms which can look really stupid in a lot of matches but here he really sold the beating tremendously with his cries of agony and pulling the ref over to give him some time to breath. The leg selling was really choice as well, he really slowed down before the first baseball slide to sell the leg and I loved him slapping his leg to get some feeling back into it before daring Finlay to hit him again....and Finlay just kneecapping him, letting him back up before screaming 'I'M THE ONLY MAN HERE SO HOW CAN WE FIGHT LIKE MEN" before kneecapping Sami AGAIN was by far the best sequence of the match and just as great as it sounds. Sami's chops to Finlay's throat were well placed throughout the match as something that could trouble Finlay and there was one punch that looked to connect right on Finlay's jaw that he sold amazingly by staggering around and then checking his teeth. Finlay also constantly cutting off Callihan's comeback either through a strike or just being too smart for Calihan was a nice mini story and along with Sami timing his offene well throughout the match kept the story ticking along, the one spot where Finlay just puts Sami on the ropes before slapping him to the floor like a bitch was another lovely Finlay spot.

Finishing stretch is really terrific as well. Callihan has had his leg fucked through Finlay submissions and hits a slow desperation backdrop driver (and Finlay selling his head for a shortwhile afterwards was another orgasmic but of genius from our loveable Irishman) before finally going for an all or nothing tope suicida which sees him hit the guardrail via his own throat and looked brutal. From here Sami staggers back into the ring and knows he's got no chance but kicks out of two Celtic Crosses and flips Finlay off after each one, again a great continuation of this punk looking to earn Finlay's respect and not staying down despite having no hope. Finlay puts the kid out of his misery and spikes him with the Finlay Tombstone for the 1-2-3.

Finlay post match is just amazing, speaking in a raspy voice to put over Callihan's chops as well as a funny 'what's the score' joke about Evolve's rules. He puts over Sami's resiliency and toughness and caps off the Indy MOTY tremendously. Great striking from both men, a working story about respect that was paced well and built around each exchange, Finlay ruling it as a character 'shake it off Sami' after beating the shit out of his leg and a top notch finishing stretch.

Finlay is BACK!!!

*****1/4-****1/2*


----------



## Cactus

How long is that Finlay match? I may give it a watch if it's a quickie.


----------



## WOOLCOCK

probably 20 minutes. The megaupload link I had for it goes to 27 minutes but that counts introductions and Finlay's post match promo. It flies by though.


----------



## seancarleton77

Is there a link anywhere in the media section for Finlay vs. Calihan?


----------



## Cactus

Yeah. Go back a few pages in the Indy section.


----------



## WOOLCOCK

seancarleton77 said:


> Is there a link anywhere in the media section for Finlay vs. Calihan?


http://www.megaupload.com/?d=J1BX5CV8

Credit: KingCal


----------



## seancarleton77

Well, thanks to Cal and yourself.


----------



## Caponex75

Anyone got Finley vs. Sami with no commentary?

More people need to talk about Go Shiozaki vs. Akiyama.

More people need to talk about The American Wolves vs. Future Shock.

More people need to talk about Go Shiozaki vs. Akiyama.

That is all.



Well actually more people need to tell me why people aren't telling others that BXB HULK VS. TOZAWA CAN CURE CANCERS?! Seriously love this match and this is coming from a guy that was about to put a bounty on Hulk.


----------



## Bubz

Go/Akiyama is awesome, I loved it. I was talking about it a few pages ago .

Wolves/Future Shock wasn't that amazing to be honest, it was really fun, but not a great match.

I have no interest in watching Hulk vs Tozawa. After Tozawa/Shingo was hyped loads and I didn't like it at all, I don't want to be dissapointed by another Dragon Gate match ever again, so that means I probably won't ever watch dragon Gate again .


----------



## WOOLCOCK

*Virus vs Guerrero Maya Jr, CMLL 07/06/2011*

Bout time some Lucha other than IWRG was pimped and this was a strong MOTYC for any promotion and a true step back to the mid 90s of CMLL with the likes of Dandy, Llanes, Casas, Santo, Panther, Atlantis & Satanico tearing shit up. For anyone who doesn't know, Virus used to wrestle as the awesome Damiancito El Guerrero in CMLL and he's still awesome as fuck and a strong BITW candidate. The opening two falls are the classic Lucha matwork which dominates the opening 2 falls in Title matches: its not IWRG level matwork but its still really smooth and looks unco-operative and gritty. Virus in particular busts out some amazing submissions particularly the headscissors spot where he breaks his own bridge into a triangle choke to counter Maya. He's particlarly vicious as well in the second fall with some nice arm submissions and just general vicious work on the arm. Virus takes the opening fall after managing to out-think the younger Maya and locking on a submission combo for the win and Maya manages to even the score after making a comeback and using his greater speed and agility to get the best of the older Virus before locking on a lovely Black Terry esque submission.

The third fall is really though what propells this from 'great' to classic level. Maya dominates the beginning of the third and deciding caida and carries on his momentum from the last fall with some amazing counters and pinning combos as well as some funky submissions. His arm drag to the floor off the apron setting up his awesome dive into the crowd (no-one does suicide dives to the floor better than Luchadores) was an amazing combo and the submission following the sickening dropkick to the back of the head has to be a strong contender for near fall of the year. At this point I got a strong All Japan mid 90s vibe from Virus as he's fighting to stay in the match but slowly being worn down and beaten...until the younger and impatient Maya makes a crucial error and bails to the floor setting up THE DIVE OF THE YEAR from Virus to the floor which looked absolutely brutal. This is the difference maker in the match as Virus slowly begins to build more and more momentum and gets some sensational near falls from pinning predicaments that had the crowd going bonkers and a slap exchange follows with Virus warming up his right hand only to cheapshot Maya with a gorgeous left punch to the mouth which floors him. Finish looked absolutely incredible as well for a man of Virus's age and truly capped off a glorious trecera caida.

Strong MOTYC, though I may just have Finlay vs Callihan a little higher, its incredibly close though. Everyone needs to watch this match.

*****1/4-****1/2*


----------



## antoniomare007

Caponex75 said:


> More people need to talk about Strong BJ 6/27 tag
> 
> More people need to talk about Strong BJ 7/25 tag
> 
> More people need to talk about Strong BJ 8/20 tag


fixed 

besides already talked about Akiyama/Go and nobody besides me and bubz seemed to have watched it, lol.


----------



## Chismo

> besides already talked about Akiyama/Go and nobody besides me and bubz seemed to have watched it, lol.


I watched it, and yeah it was great match.


----------



## Caponex75

That match rebooted my love for Shiozaki as a wrestler as I feel since 2010, the guy hasn't had that much for him. I watched his match with Sugiura and the crowd did what they aimed for and that is make sure it didn't amount to crap. The match was great and the story was easily understandable but the crowd sucked the life out for me. I felt like the same would happen against Akiyama but it instead became a ride. Shiozaki blade job was excellent and his woozy selling is probably the best out there. This was the Shiozaki last year that I believed can bring NOAH to it's former glory and this Shiozaki brought every bit of his game he needed to bring. Despite the botches, this felt like one of the best NOAH heavyweight matches I had seen in awhile excluding Sugiura vs Kensuke(Another match people need to see). ****1/4

I thought Wolves vs Shock was excellent and it is in my top ten. So much great in this match. Richards made sure to make his opponents look like legit threats and made O'Reily look like a beast when he was constantly putting his master on his butt when it came to strikes. Like everything I dislike about tag matches wasn't in here.....the double submission spot was horrid the previous night but I actually bought it this time as the transition was so believable. O'Reily trying to break the Achilles Lock but Richards blocking him. Richards then tries to German him but O'Reily counters to a choke which is then countered into a Ankle lock. That was so much better as it actually a battle instead of generic "Oh I'll help you OH NOEZ NOW I STUK". So much to go on but the finish actually leading to something in the storyline as well? ****1/2 Seriously, the only thing that was annoying was Richards entering the ring after the stand off and strike exchange was kinda predictable with Reily & Richards. The crowd ate that whole match up.


----------



## Bubz

Completely agree about Go/Akiyama, Go was amazing in it, he looked legit messed up, seriously some of the best selling I have seen for ages.

I really liked Wolves/Future Shock, it was hella fun, but I wouldn't have it in my top 10, I thought the LDRS/Future Shock match was a lot better personally.


----------



## Kid Kamikaze10

I know it will seem weird, but I'm gonna throw in a women's match into the fray.

Ayumi Kurihara vs Ayako Hamada, SHIMMER Volume 38 - *** and 3/4


A great back and forth, with very little sloppyness, no apparent botches, some moves I didn't expect at all, and fantastic finish.


----------



## seabs

*Watched the 2 Sekimoto matches from the Fire Festival Finals that antionio loved. Wouldn't call either of them MOTYC material myself. The Tanaka match had some awesome sequences, especially the one starting with the suicide dive and ending with the table spot. There was too much down time between big spots and there was absolutely no reason for them to work that type of match over 30 minutes. If they had just stuck to the high impact spots that got the crowd excited and cut the match in half so it was only 15 or so minutes it might have been one of my favourite matches of the year. The final bored me and was pretty average I thought.*


----------



## antoniomare007

I kinda agree with the final, I thought it was a good match. It was more of a "worth watching" recommendation than a MOTYC.

Didn't think Sekimoto/Tanaka had too much down time though.


----------



## seancarleton77

Hey Seabs, do you have Akiyama vs. Shiozaki in your 2011 Best of Puro media thread?


----------



## Bubz

*Takashi Sugiura vs Kensuke Sasaki - NOAH 23/07/11*
Holy shit! This is easily my favorite match from Japan this year. Fucking awesome stuff. These two just beat the living shit out of each other for 20 minutes. This match just resembled a fucking war right from the start and it never let up, it was Sasaki's chops vs Sugiura's elbows, I mean words can't describe the stiffness, but thats not the only reason this match rocked. It put both guys across as the two biggest bad ass's in wrestling even though neither of them have the title. The end was amazing, I won't spoil it for anyone who hasn't seen it. I don't really know what else to say other than I thought this was fucking awesome, The biggest straight up war I have seen this year, no hardcore match can match the intensity and butality of this, especially in the later stages of the match when shit just gets unreal. I may be overhyping it to some, but fuck it lol. *****1/2+*


----------



## bigbuxxx

seancarleton77 said:


> Hey Seabs, do you have Akiyama vs. Shiozaki in your 2011 Best of Puro media thread?


It's on youtube.


----------



## seabs

*I'm getting it on DVD so I'm waiting to upload it with no WM*

*Finlay vs Sami Callihan - EVOLVE 9*
_Too many common Indy flaws to stop this being a legit MOTYC for me but it was really great. Finlay beating the living shit out of Callihan was glorious and it's in much more than I'mma stiff this fucker up to get myself over way. That first forearm to start the match off really set the match up nicely. Sami was a good guy to match up with Finlay. Yeah he isn't an amazing wrestler but he takes a good shitkicking and has lots of fire for a babyface and that's all that was really needed of him here. I don't get why anyone thinks he's awful because he isn't. He isn't great but he's but he's better than most Indy guys with jacked bodies who can do a moonsault. Both of them played really well off each other with Callihan instigating more abuse from Finlay and Finlay delivering enough brutality to make Sami look legit. The match went way longer than it needed too and it was at some point after their first segment on the floor that it really started dragging for me and they started filling time up because it's a major Indy match so it has to go over 20 minutes at least. Finlay's good enough to not make it totally boring but they could have easily chopped 5-10 minutes out in the middle and achieved the same result in the end. Naylor's smarky commentary is really annoying too and it makes the product seem cheap by having a Rob Naylor commentating. Nothing against the guy but it's like the complete opposite to a commentator like JR who can sell stuff and you can take seriously. Bit heavy on the kickouts at the end but I guess it put Sami over that bit more and it wasn't like he leaped back up and started making a comeback from them. Good thing is it made me fucking amped for Finlay/Steen. Should be much shorter and even harder, plus with Steen he brings more positives than negatives to the table. Oh and it's in Reseda too and not that shitty BB Kings place._

****3/4*


----------



## Bubz

They are pretty much my feelings on the match, but I rated it ***1/2. And yeah, that BB Kings place is seriously awful.


----------



## Caponex75

I agree on that he isn't a bad wrestler but his look is just atrocious. He looks like someone I just want to see get the nonsense beaten out of. If he changed his look then I would totally get on the bandwagon but he looks like a dirty hermaphrodite hooker. Just can't get behind that. I agree on the rating though.




And the Sugiura vs. Kensuke match is the manilest match you'll find this year. You'll most likely grow chest hair and have a sudden interest in domestic abuse after watching that.


----------



## Bubz

Definitely true. I can't remember people talking about it at all, maybe I'm alone in liking it that much.


----------



## Caponex75

Well NOAH has been in a terrible rut and outside of a few Suzuki matches, nothing is really drawing non-Asians to watch. NJPW, on the other hand, has been amazing and never boring really. So while NOAH has been sucking, NJPW has been gaining those viewers. That and the match Kensuke & Sugiura had last year was fucking terrible.

In fact, here is a extra hype post for those that haven't seen it.



> You know, there are emotional matches like John Cena vs. CM Punk and there are matches that just capture our imaginations......then there are the matches you drink beer to while the thought passes through your head that Led Zeppelin should of named that song "Bitch, I'm going to leave you" instead. This match is made for MEN. Not your pink shirts, jersey shore, or the "lifetime is inspirational" men but the "I'm going to cut down the biggest Bear I CAN FUCKING FIND THEN MUTILATE IT TO PROVE MY MANLINESS"MEN. This was the damn deal. Both guys are RED in the beginning as you can clearly see Sugiura's chest looking like a not so good hamburger and Kensuke neck/ear just plain beat up. What I love about this match is that it goes with how both men are. Sugiura doesn't give a shit.....about NO ONE. He's fought big guys, fat guys, small guys, and he just doesn't give a FUCK. Kensuke beats the shit out of EVERYONE. You just don't go into a Kensuke match expecting not to get your ass beat. It's more guaranteed than death or taxes. So the combination of not giving a shit and shit beating gets turned into a "BITCH THUS MAH HOUSE" extravaganza of pain. My favorite character moment is when Sugiura starts pounding Kensuke like he has done Go in the past but instead Kensuke is all like "NAH FOOL YOU GOT STUFF BACKWARD" and just knocks Sugiura's ass silly with a STIFF ASS Lariat to the back of the head. Sugiura doesn't exactly play nice guy in this match ether. When Kensuke matches him, Sugiura pretty much gets in his face that this is his "world" and Kensuke should be grateful that he is allowed to exist in it. Seriously, this match is approved for instant growth in facial hair and sudden urge for domestic abuse.
> 
> This match is Chuck Norris Approved
> 
> To think.....I thought their match last year was the worst match I saw in 2010 and now I'm sure this is the best match NOAH has had this year. I'm going to go smoke a cigar now.......and I don't smoke.


----------



## antoniomare007

you guys need to read this thread more







a lot of people pimped Sugi vs Kensuke


----------



## seancarleton77

Suguira and Kenskay in one ring makes the Expendables look like a boy band.


----------



## seabs

*Erm .... for those talking about how "manly" of a match Sugiura/Sasaki was please go watch some Strong BJW tags. Just .... go watch them please. *


----------



## seancarleton77

Seabs said:


> *Erm .... for those talking about how "manly" of a match Sugiura/Sasaki was please go watch some Strong BJW tags. Just .... go watch them please. *


I love me a Strong BJ (not too strong) those guys will beat the piss out of each other!


----------



## Bubz

I've seen a few of the pimped BJ tags this year, doesn't change the fact that Sasaki/Sugiura was hard hitting as hell.


----------



## topper1

Seabs said:


> *Erm .... for those talking about how "manly" of a match Sugiura/Sasaki was please go watch some Strong BJW tags. Just .... go watch them please. *


----------



## antoniomare007

topper1 said:


>


It doesn't get more manly than Yoshihito Sasaki delivering pain and hate at anything that moves.


----------



## seancarleton77

Yoshihito Sasaki is the biggest prick in wrestling, as far as the way he works goes, he's going to kill someone some day.


----------



## seabs

*Randy Orton & Sheamus vs Christian & Mark Henry - House Show Bercy 04.09.2011*
_This is every bit as awesome as it looks on paper and then a bit more too. Christian is fantastic as a whiny pussyhole heel and he takes some great beatings and makes the faces look beasty. Sheamus is awesome as a babyface and he comes off even more dominant when the crowd get behind him booting Henry in the head than he did as a heel worker. First portion of the match is fantastic with Christian working with both Sheamus and Orton and making them both look amazing. Sheamus plays FIP and a really good one at that too. Henry looks awesome in the match dominating Sheamus during the heat segment and not doing a whole lot else. The spot that Henry and Sheamus do together where Henry has Sheamus above his head and Sheamus comes down and reverses it into a swinging DDT is amazing. Orton's super on the apron building to the hot tag and getting the crowd behind the hot tag too. Then once it comes you get a finishing stretch with Orton and Christian and you know what to expect from that. Really good back and forth stuff as per usual with those two. There's an amazing moment when Orton is setting up for the RKO and Henry creeps up behind Orton looking like a fucking menace and then takes him out. Think back to a few months ago on SD and that Orton/Morrison vs Christian/Truth match with the electric Orton/Christian finish. Well this is every bit as great as that at the end but only all the way through the match rather than just being a red hot finish. Loads and loads of fun too. Only goes 14 minutes and it just annoys the fuck out of you to think these guys are working matches like this and they're not being put on TV because they're not only really great matches but they're really good fun too. Definitely up there for me with the best WWE matches of this year, probably the best under 15 minutes._

******


----------



## topper1

antoniomare007 said:


> It doesn't get more manly than Yoshihito Sasaki delivering pain and hate at anything that moves.


I like the BJPW matches as much any anyone but Sugiura amd Sasaki have a big tough man presence that no one from BJPW can match so while the work might be as good it's simply not as epic.


----------



## Boom Baby

DGUSA Untouchable 2011 

Johnny Gargano vs. Akira Tozawa - ****


----------



## geraldinhio

No talk of any Death Before Dishonor matches ? Heard rave reviews off some and fairly mixed off others . Was any matches MOTYC potential ? Still not certain whether it was a good choice not to order the show . I usually order them , but I was broke more than usual this time around .


----------



## Cactus

Yeah. Someone throw some spoiler-free ninja stars at me from the ROH PPV.


----------



## geraldinhio

Care to share ? Might order it during the week if I get some spare cash .


----------



## TelkEvolon

Roderick Strong vs Eddie Edwards - ****1/4

Ladder War III - ****


----------



## Chismo

Ringmaster Challenge ****1/4

Ladder War III ****1/4


----------



## seancarleton77

Ladder War III = ****+

Ringmaster Challenge = ****


----------



## bigbuxxx

**** for ladder war III. watching eddie/strong atm.


----------



## Fighter Daron

It seems like a good show. Two matches with **** or more snowflakes and Steen's segment deserve a watch.


----------



## seancarleton77

Mark Henry vs. Randy Orton from Night of Champions = ****1/4


----------



## J-Rokk

As far as Death Before Dishonor goes, it had some really good matches. The Jacbos/Generico match was a good one, so was the triple threat tag team elimination match.

As far as the double main event goes, I just started watching the Ringmaster's Challenge and so far it is great. I'm sure the ladder war will not disappoint.

Pour in the Steen segment and mix it with the double main event and I'm still up in the air on whether or not it would be worth ordering.

I would hands down suggest finding a way to download the show and give it a watch though.


----------



## Boom Baby

NOC - Cena/Rio - ***1/2


----------



## Fighter Daron

seancarleton77 said:


> Mark Henry vs. Randy Orton from Night of Champions = ****1/4


Was it that good?


----------



## Cactus

Fighter Daron said:


> Was it that good?


I have it at a solid '***'. 2nd best match of the night, but I'm accounting for the ending promo as well. Pretty good slow match that told a story.


----------



## J-Rokk

Just finished watching Edwards/Strong - Ringmasters Challenge from ROH DBD 9 and I would give it a solid **** easily.

I have not watched such a psychical match in quite some time that did not involve weapons or no-DQ etc rules. Very technical yet fast paced match, as to me most technical matches are slow and seem to drag along at times.


----------



## Bubz

*Henry/Orton NOC ****1/4*
Yeah, really. Great match. Henry has been so good in this role, and Orton has been on it for the most part of this year. Great storytelling and psychology all the way through with an awesome payoff. I actually marked the fuck out at the end.

Also Punk/Trips was looking to become an easy MOTYC before all the 'stuff' happened. I actually enjoyed all the 'stuff' though so it's alright


----------



## Goku

Punk vs. Triple H was fucking awesome.


----------



## Cactus

I hated Punk vs Trips tbh. Have it **3/4


----------



## Goku

Triple H and Punk continuing to fight despite everything in the world going against them was sweet. The workover was extremely smart, hardly any flaws as far as I could see. Overbooked, yes, of course, but this whole storyline got overbooked when Triple H became the special guest referee to Punk vs. Cena at SummerSlam. Each character had its own justification for what they did though. Truth and Miz hold that they've been pushed to the background because of some conspiracy, which may or may not exist. They (tried to) beat the shit out of both men to force a result that would benefit them, but it failed. They couldn't very well allow Punk to beat Hunter on his own. That defeats the purpose of their entire doing. _They_ want to be responsible for whatever happens. John Laurinitis continues to usurp Triple H's throne, his subtlety waning by the day. Nash doing what he does best to try and stay relevant. His motives can be whatever in context with the storyline at the moment, it really doesn't matter unless it develops into something later on. Maybe he wants to stay relevant, get his ticket to earn consistent paychecks again. He tried to pick up the pieces as he always does and failed.

In the end, what we saw was Triple H defeating Punk to remain COO of the company. He proved nothing.


----------



## seancarleton77

CM Punk vs. Triple H was heading into being a great match, then the schmozfest of Russoian proportions. So at the end of the day instead of 4 stars it was none. That is the very definition of piss poor booking.

The wrestling all night was solid, but the booking was bad it took me back to 1999.


----------



## Goku

Disagree.


----------



## peachchaos

Ladder War 3 ****+


----------



## Bubz

It was slightly ridiculous, I enjoyed it though but while I liked everything that went on, it did take away from the match itself as I think if it had a clean finish without all the run ins etc it would have been an easy MOTYC.

*Edwards vs Strong Ringmasters challenge *****
Really good back and forth for about 40 minutes or whatever it was. The second fall was the best with Roddy working over the back to get a submission, but I hated Eddie getting the submission without actualy touching Roddys leg the whole time while Roddy worked over Eddies back and couldn't submit him.

*Ladder War III - ANX vs Briscoes ****+*
Just a great fight between these two teams. It didn't have the insane spots that the first one had, but as a match it was better. The hate was really there and King got worked over pretty bad, so when Rhett finaly made the save it was awesome. The splash off the ladder by Mark was insane though. The right team won (obviously) and they sure as hell better take the belts of WGTT.

Rest of the show was dull if i'm being honest apart from the Generico/Jacobs match and that whole segment after which was awesome. Jacobs looked good and it's good to see him back wrestling in ROH.


----------



## bigbuxxx

seancarleton77 said:


> CM Punk vs. Triple H was heading into being a great match, then the schmozfest of Russoian proportions. So at the end of the day instead of 4 stars it was none. That is the very definition of piss poor booking.


so true.


----------



## jawbreaker

From the DBD thread:

- Strong/Edwards was a tale of two matches: one phenomenal one whenever Strong was on offense, and one horrible one whenever Edwards was. That doesn't mean Edwards sucked in this match, in fact it was probably his best performance ever. He actually played an underdog, and while his selling wasn't great, he actually let Strong get some heat, and Strong capitalized perfectly. The bits with the chair on the outside were really good, and I actually bought the countout tease for once (the ironman stip helped a lot). Strong's falls felt believable, and his character work was off the charts (sitting in the corner grabbing a casual drink of water while Edwards struggles to his feet was a great visual). Edwards, on the other hand, started to repeat his spots, including the setups, which just revealed how choreographed his entire moveset is. The stupid backpack stunner is what I'm mostly thinking of here. There were some timing issues as well, but I think I could go up to **** on this one. Strong's offensive segments were just that good.

Forgot to mention in there how awful Edwards winning the second fall was, so I'll do that here. It sucked and would have ruined the match if that was the finish. I'm still going **** and the best I've seen Edwards ever, but every fall he won was awful and predictable.

Also based on pure in-ring performances Strong is WOTY by miles.


----------



## seabs

*Triple H vs CM Punk - No DQ Match - Night Of Champions 2011*
_Legit MOTYC and right now I might even pip it ahead of Christian/Orton from Summerslam as my WWE MOTY. The whole idea of the match was that they just simply hate each other and this about them having a fight. Nothing to do with titles or standings or anything. Just pure hate and the layout of the match reflected that perfectly. Start was perfection with them wanting nothing to do with the tentative start, going through the motions and exchanging holds. Punk jumping Trips was totally indicimant of his character and him being this punk that shows no respect for what Trips has done or his authority. 

From there it's all about being a fight. No wrestling manoeuvres or spots or taking 5 minutes to set up a big spot later in the match. Perfect example of how a heated match between two guys who just flat out dislike each other should be done. I normally hate crowd brawling but it worked here and I didn't dislike it which is quite something for crowd brawling. Punk taking awkward looking bumps that didn't look smooth was a great touch. I'm talking about the slingshot spot for example and the chair spot in the corner and when he got his foot caught in the middle rope whilst Trips was punching him. 

Then they had the standout spot of the match and it helps when they have just one huge spot that easily outweighs anything else in the match. The way they replayed the shit out of it did a nice job of getting it over that bit more and making it seem even more important. Loved how Trips just kinda fell into position and they didn't do any bullshit fake rasslin where Punk sets Trips up into position. Punk doing the elbow off the top rope spot was extra nice as it's not normally something you'd associate with Punk so it made the match feel even more important and even more hated that Punk would take such a huge risk that he doesn't normally do. 

I can kinda see how the stuff from the Miz/Truth run in onwards might make some people just call it a good match with a poor finish but saying it was a bad match? GTFO. Everything up to there was legit fantastic. Personally I thought the finish was overbooked to hell but in a good way that it worked and most of it all made sense. The Miz/Truth run in made total sense with their whole conspiracy thing they've been rattling on about and how they built to it on Raw and earlier in the show. Them beating up both guys and then laying Punk on top off HHH for the pin because of the stip was awesome. Terrific near fall and it led to a nice callback spot from the opener with Miz and the ref. This was horrible though and made Miz look like even more of a geek then he he usually does. Rick Knox hitting flying lariats in PWG is fine because it's PWG and it's supposed to be fun and goofy and wacky. Miz being laid out by a fucking WWE ref was horrible though. Poor guy has been booked like a total job geek since he started teaming with Truth and this along with OTL has completely ruined any chances he has of being a legit top guy no matter how strong they ever make him look. I'm sure Armstrong was grateful for Truth landing right on top off him from the top rope to the floor too. Poor guy. 

Ace shenanigans worked a treat and added even more mystery to his involvement into everything and did a sweet job of teasing him wanting Hunter out. Him getting his phone out and turning his back to the ring was a super spot and lead into Nash perfectly. Shame the commentators didn't pick up on it though. Lawler sounded the best he has for years without Cole and Booker sounded half sensible too. Cole actually had a fine night commentating but it was a nice change to not hear him and have Lawler call the majority of the match really well. Nash run in was great. Short and to the point. Sledgehammer shot was bossy. Punk getting to kick out of the pedigree put him over big, especially after the run ins and all the big moves he took from Nash and Truth along with the war before all that. Probably the best possible finish they could have done with Trips going over. Punk still came out of it looking like a champ by taking so much punishment and kicking out of a load of it. 

Not sure how people can say Austin/Foley was an amazing match and then say this sucked. Both matches were virtually the same with the hardcore brawling and the overbooked run ins. Amazing, amazing match._

*****1/2*


----------



## Fighter Daron

By any means that match was awesome, it was some kind of fun, but I don't know how to rate a match that is not really a match. I prefer to wait until they face each other with no interferences, that'd be HUGE.


----------



## Caponex75

Hohenheim of Light said:


> Triple H and Punk continuing to fight despite everything in the world going against them was sweet. The workover was extremely smart, hardly any flaws as far as I could see. Overbooked, yes, of course, but this whole storyline got overbooked when Triple H became the special guest referee to Punk vs. Cena at SummerSlam. Each character had its own justification for what they did though. Truth and Miz hold that they've been pushed to the background because of some conspiracy, which may or may not exist. They (tried to) beat the shit out of both men to force a result that would benefit them, but it failed. They couldn't very well allow Punk to beat Hunter on his own. That defeats the purpose of their entire doing. _They_ want to be responsible for whatever happens. John Laurinitis continues to usurp Triple H's throne, his subtlety waning by the day. Nash doing what he does best to try and stay relevant. His motives can be whatever in context with the storyline at the moment, it really doesn't matter unless it develops into something later on. Maybe he wants to stay relevant, get his ticket to earn consistent paychecks again. He tried to pick up the pieces as he always does and failed.
> 
> In the end, what we saw was Triple H defeating Punk to remain COO of the company. He proved nothing.


This, this, and this. If I were to compare it, it be like a battle between two Gladiators who want each others blood but both are unfortunately in a land full of Zombies. All the interferences make sense and all of them had a prelude. The match made Punk look awesome as it took a total of 3 finishers to put him down yet HHH got the win he deserved since he has been getting a massive tongue lashing from Punk.


----------



## Boom Baby

NOC11 - 4-way for the US title - ***1/4


----------



## topper1

Seabs must of been on drugs when he handed out that rating.

Punk vs HHH *** and that's being nice.


----------



## Bubz

Lol, nah I see where he is coming from, up until the overbooking the match was awesome.


----------



## antoniomare007

it was a fun brawl but way too many stupid and nonsensical things happened in the last third of that match.


----------



## starship.paint

Seabs you ignored Truth breaking up Punk's pin on HHH? That doesn't make any sense at all...


----------



## Caponex75

Yeah it does. R-Truth just got his ass beat by Punk then threw on a referee like garbage and let us not forget R-Truth is four beers short of a six pack. He just reacted by trying to get some of Punk instead of thinking logically.


----------



## TelkEvolon

I guess WWE matches are great if you have a good imagination.

I've seen recently a lot of praise for medicore matches due to people putting elements and story into a match that isn't using any of it.

Del Rio punching someone in the arm once in a match, turns into Del Rio expertly working the arm setting up for the arm bar, like a true wrestling great.

If people used that same thought for every match, then most good matches would be 5 star classics.


----------



## seabs

starship.paint said:


> Seabs you ignored Truth breaking up Punk's pin on HHH? That doesn't make any sense at all...





Caponex75 said:


> Yeah it does. R-Truth just got his ass beat by Punk then threw on a referee like garbage and let us not forget R-Truth is four beers short of a six pack. He just reacted by trying to get some of Punk instead of thinking logically.


*That's probably as good of an explanation that you'll find for it. Granted it didn't make a whole lot of sense but it went against what Truth and Miz wanted and they wanted the spotlight to be on them and they wanted it to end their way with them standing tall over both of them. 

I totally get people not being crazy about the overbooked finish but I'm not sure how people can call it a bad match because everything up to the table spot was brilliant.

I knew after I watched it that I was probably gonna end up liking it more than the vast majority but I really didn't expect people not to think the match was at least very good.*


----------



## Fighter Daron

Understand me, before the interferences, it was being superb, but I prefer to wait until they have a real match.


----------



## seabs

*Yeah I can totally understand that stance on the match and what bubz said about it. Really can't understand people saying it wasn't even a good match though but I'm not going to argue with extreme opinions on the match when I'm at the other extreme on the match. *


----------



## Fighter Daron

No, I don't really think it was a bad match, it was very fun, in fact. The thing is that I don't know how to rate it.


----------



## peachchaos

If only the crowd was chanting for blood, then he'd have a solid reason to hate the match.


----------



## geraldinhio

*FCW TV 18.09.2011 - Seth Rollins vs. Dean Ambrose (John Moxley )*

Wow , what a match . Didn't know much about the back story but watched a pretty awesome video with some great promo work from Ambrose , from what I heard Tyler sounds more comfortable on the mic too . The story behind it was Rollins couldn't beat Ambrose in their previous encounters so this match was a 30 minute iron man match . What a crazy match . Ambrose still has pretty much the same character , which is good as I enjoyed it . Some great storytelling , espicailly the story of Rollins hitting his finisher which produces one of the best near falls i've seen in quite some time . I think I might of enjoyed this match as I knew nothing about the outcome and what happened so I may be biased . It goes to show I should watch matches unspoiled more . Awesome match anyway , easily the best i've ever seen from Moxley and in FCW . **** 1/4 

Here it is in full . I'm sure I enjoyed this a lot more than everyone else .


----------



## Bubz

That was an awesome match. Shit, I didn't expect that at all. That is easily the best Moxley has ever looked, and Rollins is great. That ring announcer was so bad lol. Also, Rollins naming his finisher after a spell from Harry Potter is slightly gay lol. But yeah, definitely check that match out *****1/4* from me too.


----------



## seabs

*Hiroshi Tanahashi vs Giant Bernard - IWGP Heavyweight Championship - NJPW 18.07.2011*
_Matches where you have both guys going after body parts consistently throughout the match along with a clear face/heel dynamic are always good. This was no different. Really good work body work by both men. Bernard destroying Tana's back and Tana going after Bernard's leg at every opportunity that he got. They had a spot early on after a figure four segment which was really good where they seemed to tease Tanahashi injuring his leg badly and from there it seemed as though Bernard would work over the leg but instead he started targetting the back so that spot was odd. Back work was great though and the slam on the guard rail and the powerbomb on the apron were brutal spots. The doctor rushing over to Tanahashi after the rail spot was a nice touch. Back work also meant that the comeback didn't have to be full of no selling the earlier limb work either as Tana can still sprint across the ring and do the majority of his moves with a weakened back rather than when he gets his leg worked over and then he has to charge about everywhere for his comeback. Leg work was just as great too with Tana going to every opening he got to try and slow the big man down and get him down to his size. Really strong all round babyface performance from Tanahashi actually. Bernard was as you'd expect an awesome monster in control and a great catalyst to all of Tana's babyface work. Crowd was into it too which helped although not on the level of Tana/Goto or Tana/Nagata. Bernard looked even more beasty when they let him start kicking out of some big shit at the end too. _

*****1/4*


----------



## jawbreaker

Bubz said:


> That was an awesome match. Shit, I didn't expect that at all. That is easily the best Moxley has ever looked, and Rollins is great. That ring announcer was so bad lol. Also, Rollins naming his finisher after a spell from Harry Potter is slightly gay lol. But yeah, definitely check that match out *****1/4* from me too.


Tyler once wore a Gryffindor shirt to the ring on the HDNet show. While he was champ. He's probably pretty into it.


----------



## antoniomare007

*Hiroshi Tanahashi vs Shinsuke Nakamura - Kentaro Hoshino Memorial Show 9/19/2011*

Firs of all, there's gonna be a lot of people who wont like this very much, specially because of some selling issues (surprisingly, it was Nakamura who didn't sell for shit, lol) but I liked this a lot. The beginning and middle portion are nothing to write home about and some might lose interest in the match...I didn't. The last 11-12 minutes are pretty great with both guys not letting the other one get the upper hand and it kept me guessing what the hell was going to happen next and who was going to get the win. Tana's comeback didn't came nearly as annoying as in the Goto match and I loved some of the sequences they had in the final stretch as they weren't the typical formula (like Tanahashi using a Tiger Suplex after Nakamura blocked the Dragon and Straight Jacket Suplex). A hotter crowd might have put this in a legit MOTY status.

****1/4 maybe ****1/2....eh, who cares I hate snowflakes anyways.


----------



## B-Boy21

Atsushi Kotoge & Daisuke Harada (c) vs Ricky Marvin & Taiji Ishimori 8/14/11 - ****1/2

- People have to start talking more about this match more. If the crowd was better this could have been a MOTYC.


----------



## DTB1986

Everything from the past couple weeks...

ROH

I was really enjoying the Generico Jacobs match until the (IMO) very sloppily done Steen run in. Without that it probably could have been at least *** and half.

Edwards vs Strong 2/3 falls - The match itself was fine, the booking was nuts. But if you are just watching this purely for the wrestling its pretty damn good. ***3/4, very well paced with Strong just brutalizing Edwards for the majority of the match. Strong was very clean the entire match and truly outshone Eddie. Not too much story telling here, just basic Eddie playing the under dog with a big heart. The ending was sloppy with the time not being too clear.

Ladder War 3 - *** I don't know, nothing special here. I know a lot of people will like this match but it just didn't do anything for me. I appreciate all the ridiculous spots and the intensity but it was too spotty with a very anti-climatic finish. They were just moving from spot to spot without building to a conclusion.

WWE - 
Fatal Four Way (Riley vs Swagger vs Morrison vs Ziggler)- MOTN for me,I really liked the story being told with Swagger being a freaking powerhouse, out-muscling everyone. I don't particularly like Morrison but he was excellent in this match. I always love spot monkeys when they kinda do their thing in the background. Riley looked good too, keeping him busy and relevant. There was a really great false finish here when they teased a typical ending of Swagger and Ziggler costing each other the match only for Morrison to kick out of Riley's finisher. One weird part when Ziggler was mad at Vicky for not letting someone (forget who) pin Swagger? Didn't make sense.
***3/4
Air Boom vs. Awesome Truth - Another very good match with great booking. Air Boom is naturally over so they didn't really need the clean win. I loved the nod to Mayweather Ortiz, with Miz starting the match off with a headbutt, sarcastically apologizing, only to be laid out by Kofi. I loved that, very clever. ***1/2
FCW - 
Dean Ambrose vs. Seth Rollins 3 - Awesome match,I haven't seen too much from Ambrose(Moxley) when he was in the indy's but hes an absolute star. This is the match that Edwards Strong wanted to be. I hate Iron Man matches with only one pin fall, it takes the suspense out of the match. This match had a great build up, great pace, great storytelling. I can't wait to see Ambrose on the main roster. **** 1/4


----------



## topper1

Two people in the last 3 post handed out a **** 1/2 rating and pretty much said neither match was a MOTYC


----------



## lewieG

That Rollins vs Ambrose match was sick. I've probably seen half a dozen Rollins FCW matches and they've all been class, just like his ROH run.


----------



## smitlick

*ROH - Death Before Dishonor IX*
Edwards vs Strong
****


----------



## ywall2breakerj

Edwards vs Strong-**** 1/4

Ladder War III-****


----------



## Henry Hill

> Air Boom vs. Awesome Truth - Another very good match with great booking. Air Boom is naturally over so they didn't really need the clean win. I loved the nod to Mayweather Ortiz, with Miz starting the match off with a headbutt, sarcastically apologizing, only to be laid out by Kofi. I loved that, very clever. ***1/2


Good Booking? I thought the match pissed on the tag team titles and was just used as an angle to set up Miz and Truth intefering in the main event. It was a good match but the faces could have at least prevailed from the situation with a sneaky pinfall if they were gonna do a silly ref spot. Instead the lasting image from the match was Miz and Truth attacking the ref whilst the champs faded into the background.


----------



## Chismo

Cactus said:


> I hated Punk vs Trips tbh. Have it **3/4


I agree. Even until the end it was nothing special. And that clusterfuck :lmao... **3/4, and I'm being generous.

Orton/Henry (***3/4) and Tag Titles match (***) are the only matches worth watching.
Bad PPV.

EDIT: Just watched that Black/Moxley match from FCW, and holy shit it was great - ****1/4. Black is the future of WWE, if booked correctly.


----------



## Henry Hill

Funniest thing about the ending was Miz and Truth just standing there dumbstruck as Hunter kicked out of a pinfall after they had beaten him up. Instead of then say beating him up further with a chair or something they proceed to attack the referee thus completely ruining their plans to have Hunter pinned. Those two couldn't have looked any stupider during that whole charade. 

Still a really good match though for the opening fifteen minutes. Second best of the night for me.


----------



## Cactus

JoeRulz said:


> I agree. Even until the end it was nothing special. And that clusterfuck :lmao... **3/4, and I'm being generous.
> 
> Orton/Henry (***3/4) and Tag Titles match (***) are the only matches worth watching.
> Bad PPV.
> 
> EDIT: Just watched that Black/Moxley match from FCW, and holy shit it was great - ****1/4. Black is the future of WWE, if booked correctly.


How 'bout that Fatal 4 Way?


----------



## Chismo

Cactus said:


> How 'bout that Fatal 4 Way?


It was your typical, generic WWE 4-Way. Good, but not three stars or more. 

On a side note, I think I'm finally giving up on WWE. I just can't watch it anymore. I'll just read reports and download potential ***1/2+ matches, because their shows are so fucking boring, it's not even funny anymore. I'm simply too old for their shit. Oh, and that panic booking and angles :lmao


----------



## peachchaos

*No DQ: Triple H vs. CM Punk (WWE Night of Champions)*
Crowd seems pretty much sided with Triple H, but just like me they really have no idea who to cheer for since the build-up to this has been awful. Strong opening segment with Punk smartly going for the early attack, which didn't last long due to Trip's size advantage. Good Lord did Punk look puny next to Hunter as he got thrown around the arena. Its obvious there would be no match in real life. The "text that to my wife" line was awesome. I'm glad the difference in size was subtle but apparent in every exchange. The crisp delivery in every move makes this easily more entertaining than the Punk-Cena matches. Very spotty but utterly brutal. Punk played the Michaels roll very well. The "overbooking" comes in and feels a bit like the famous ECW Double Dog Collar Match, but with a lot less invested for everyone except the COO. Nash delivers a sick jacknife powerbomb to Punk, one of the best he's ever done. Considering the stakes and all the interference, I have no problem with Trips going over. Good match/decent angle. ****

*30 Minute Iron Man Match: Seth Rollins vs. Dean Ambroise (FCW) *
I've only caught a couple of the 15 minute matches that Black has been putting on in FCW, but they've all been very good. Never been huge into Moxley, but the gimmick of the match intrigued me. As it stands, this is one of the best Iron Man matches I have ever seen. Great action with hardly any down time. Lots of transitions building to both classic and innovative spots. I gotta say, Ambrose hung in there with Rollins, but it seems like he's lacking the edge that made him popular on the circuits. The sudden death overtime is played to death, but man did they come back hard at each other. I absolutely hated the overtime booking until they immediately went at it tooth-and-nail and brought me back into the match. Seemed like they held back a tad until that very very strong ending sequence. I'd pay to see an hour-long rematch. ****1/4

*Ringmaster's Challenge: Eddie Edwards vs. Roderick Strong (ROH Death Before Dishonor)*
I'm writing these reviews in the actual order I watched the matches. I gotta point out how much this match suffered due to the gimmick. If these two had been given a straight 30 Minute Iron Man Match or a normal Submissions Match, I'd probably still be pissing my pants. I think jawbreaker called Strong the Worker of the Year a few pages back and he's not far off. He's done terrific work every time no matter who the opponent. And say what you will about Truth Martini, he def knows his fashion. Peacock feathers. Seriously. Edwards has beaten Strong on two occasions, and is clearly gearing up for a rubber match with Davey at FB, which made the outcome of this match totally predictable. Tack on some technical difficulties and it became very hard to follow or care about for the first 20 minutes or so. But the workers never slowed down for a second and things picked up significantly during the submission segment. 15 minutes of awesome, hard hitting, balls-to-the-walls action goes by and we're stuck with another sudden death situation. Ugh. Match went on far too long, but ultimately most of the exchanges were highly entertaining. I'm torn on this. I'm not usually one to complain about "too much wrestling", but with the gimmick stepping in the way, I just feel like this dragged. Even if it was all very very good wrestling. ***3/4


----------



## jawbreaker

It's very rare that I can follow a match just as well without commentary as with it, but Edwards/Strong I think benefited from it, or at the very least wasn't hurt.

I definitely agree that it would have been better as an ironman match. It would have removed, or at least lessened, some of the predictability, and made it feel less gimmicky. It still vastly exceeded my expectations, but I think both the gimmick and Edwards turning in a lackluster performance held it back. Strong was phenomenal in every possible way though, and Edwards did significantly improve on my biggest frustration with him, so I have it at ****, which I think might be the first time I've been one of the highest raters of an Edwards match.


----------



## peachchaos

I actually enjoy matches without commentary. The whole time it was off I was just waiting for it to come back on and looking to see if the announcers were still talking. So I guess it was just very distracting for me to go from having it to losing it so quickly. Although, when it was off, the action did seem a tad more intense.


----------



## Cactus

JoeRulz said:


> It was your typical, generic WWE 4-Way. Good, but not three stars or more.
> 
> On a side note, I think I'm finally giving up on WWE. I just can't watch it anymore. I'll just read reports and download potential ***1/2+ matches, because their shows are so fucking boring, it's not even funny anymore. I'm simply too old for their shit. Oh, and that panic booking and angles :lmao


I can kind of relate to that, but it's become such a habit to watch Raw and the PPVs, I would find it hard to stop. I'll stop 100% when the product gets real bad.


----------



## bigbuxxx

antoniomare007 said:


> tanahashi vs. nakamura - 9/19 - ****1/4 maybe ****1/2


went the same with you in the puro thread. great match but something just missing to make it a total classic like tana/goto from 6/18.

I also threw Devitt/KUSHIDA at ****1/4. it was a damn good 13 minute match.


----------



## seabs

*Bad Intentions & Jushin Liger vs Apollo 55 & Hirooki Goto - NJPW 23.06.2011*
_Finals of the 6 man tournament, no real heel/face dynamic besides some heel Liger shtick but it's a great "go out there and just have a great match in the finals of a pointless tournament" type match. Loads of great action as you'd expect from the 6 guys in the match. Finish is a bit sloppy but not bad enough to hurt the rest of the match._

******


----------



## seancarleton77

FCW TV 18.09.2011 - Seth Rollins vs. Dean Ambrose
Seth Rollins (Tyler Black) vs. Dean Ambrose (Jon Moxley)- ****


FCW TV 28.08.2011 - Dean Ambrose vs. Seth Rollins
Dean Ambrose vs. Seth Rollins - ***1/2-***3/4


FCW TV 14.08.2011 - Dean Ambrose vs. Seth Rollins = ****3/4-***** So far my match of the year.


----------



## Caponex75

Ewww.....I think you are massively overrating. Oh and Edwards/Strong was super disgusting. Never again.


----------



## TelkEvolon

Ambrose vs Rollins has been awesome, those guys need to get on TV soon.


----------



## geraldinhio

TelkEvolon said:


> Ambrose vs Rollins has been awesome, those guys need to get on TV soon.


I'm glad everyone else loved it . Probably my favourite match of the year and for some reason one of my favourite ever . ( Love that style of wrestling . Awesome action mixed with some great storytelling . ) I rewatched it again , i'll probably go with ****1/2 + . I don't care if people say i'm overrating it , loved it .


----------



## seabs

*Ryo Saito & Genki Horiguchi vs Susumu Yokosuka & K-Ness vs Kenichiro Arai & Taku Iwasa - 3 Way Elimination Match - Dragon Gate 25.08.2011*
_Same rules as that mess of a 3 way at DBD IX, this is how you do that type of match though. Properly paced and laid out and not just 6 guys trying to cram as many moves into as little time as possible with no story and getting in each others way. Pace of the match is excellent and they have some really cool 3 way sequences too. Yokosuka was his typically steady but awesome self. This was K-Ness' return match and they have a nice story with him returning and not wanting to go down first match back. They even manage to creep in a good little heat segment on K-Ness. Gets a bit spot heavy after the first elimination but it's all to make K-Ness look like a great babyface and it wasn't like he leaped back up from them all and started getting his own spots in. Match was shown in full too!!!!_

*****1/4*

*Genki Horiguchi & Ryo Saito vs PAC & Dragon Kid - Dragon Gate 19.06.2011*
_Another great DG tag. Crowd and the atmosphere as a whole is amazing for this match and makes up for some of the shortcomings that the match does have. Genki's backslide from heaven is so over as a legit finish to the match it always makes for a super spot when he uses it. Crazy finishing stretch. If you love Dragon Gate then you'll love this, probably more than me. If you're not crazy about the Dragon Gate style then it's probably not for you._

******

*Masaaki Mochizuki vs Yasushi Kanda - Dragon Gate 19.06.2011*
_I really don't care a whole lot for either of these guys but this was very good, easily the best Mochizuki title match so far. Some really good leg work and for once the selling is good enough to warrant the leg work. Again the crowd are fantastic and the atmosphere as a whole is brilliant. Both guys busted out some stuff that they wouldn't usually do and really went all out which again just made it seem like a really important match which you want for title matches. Anyone who even likes either guy will more than likely like this more than I did._

****3/4*

*Prince Devitt vs KUSHIDA - NJPW 19.09.2011*
_Awesome juniors sprint and much better than any of the Ibushi/Devitt matches. Formula was more or less the same as those matches but this was much better paced and laid out better. KUSHIDA starting hot and taking it to Devitt was a great start and set the tone of the match really well from the get go. Much better than their match earlier this year too and they did the suplex spot again but thankfully it came off much smoother this time. _

*****+*

*Hiroshi Tanahashi vs Shinsuke Nakamura - NJPW 19.09.2011*
_Very much another case of a hot crowd and a great atmosphere carrying a match through further than it deserved to come. Crowd are really into it and it feels like a major match which makes the whole enjoyable and really easy to watch. Action is good if not great. Limb work was largely pointless and ineffective and not everything they tried came off. There was a series of moves towards the end where absolutely nothing worked and it all looked really odd. Still, hot crowd and big match atmosphere and the 2 guys did enough in the ring for the outside factors to make up for them._

******


----------



## starship.paint

*Dean Ambrose vs Seth Rollins - 30min Iron Man ****1/4*

Great story of Rollins controlling at the start, then Ambrose resorting to a low blow to gain two falls in a row. Final sequence was great as well. 

Negatives were no Regal commentary, match could have focused on Rollins' neck more, and the middle portion was very good but still could have been more interesting, and commercial breaks are a minor annoyance, cutting away when there could have been a countout. Ambrose also took too many enzuigiris given their familliarity, I think he took four or five when it shouldn't have been more than two really.

Dean Ambrose really turned me into a fan in this match, he's an excellent character.


----------



## zogstar67

Henry Hill said:


> Good Booking? I thought the match pissed on the tag team titles and was just used as an angle to set up Miz and Truth intefering in the main event. It was a good match but the faces could have at least prevailed from the situation with a sneaky pinfall if they were gonna do a silly ref spot. Instead the lasting image from the match was Miz and Truth attacking the ref whilst the champs faded into the background.


I would have given this match an extra 1/4* if they'd played up (just a little bit) the fact that Armstrong was a former wrestler/member of the Armstrong family and not an average ref. Let him get in one good shot before they take him down. I thought the match had a lot of good psychology and this could have added to it.


----------



## Boom Baby

Ryo Saito/Genki Horiguchi vs Susumu Yokosuka/K-Ness vs Kenichiro Arai/Taku Iwasa (Dragon Gate 25.08.2011) - ****


----------



## Chismo

Not exactly MOTYCs, but still:

The Bravados vs Future Shock ***3/4*
WGTT vs Kings Of Wrestling ****3/4*

Great tag team stuff right there. Haas and Benjamin actually looked very good.


----------



## flag sabbath

There's an amazing-looking 8-man Elimination match from Korakuen on DG Infinity 234. Unfortunately, around 20 minutes are cropped from it.


----------



## Y²

Hiroshi Tanahashi vs Yugi Nagata - IWGP Heavyweight Championship
****
Great match, awesome selling, epic last few minutes, really just let down by the fact that it was the same basic match they have always had. Onto Tanahashi/Nagata in a few hours.
Note- I turn 21 tonight and might actually end up ringing in midnight with this match.


----------



## Kick2Face

Finally got round to NOAH anniversary, shiozaki v akiyama was of notable interest.
(add www)youtube.com/watch?v=1oc0RO93Ha8


----------



## Y²

Kick2Face said:


> Finally got round to NOAH anniversary, shiozaki v akiyama was of notable interest.
> (add www)youtube.com/watch?v=1oc0RO93Ha8


Oh lawdie dat was epic. Had no idea what way it would go in that last 10minutes. Shiozaki was so red too.


----------



## Kick2Face

Indeed, thought Akiyama had him so many times especially when he hit the wrist clutch.


----------



## bigbuxxx

misplaced in the puro thread so copy/pasting here...

Just watched Go/Akiyama. bleh. so disappointed. *** from me. They were sloppy, the crowd wasn't into it, there was no drama, and the finish sucked.


----------



## seabs

_*Shiozaki/Akiyama was good, definitely not great or MOTYC though. Went needlessly long and they both no sold a lot of big moves in the last 10 minutes which annoyed me. ***3/4*_


----------



## bigbuxxx

go/takayama on 9/23 - epic fucking match. ****1/4-****1/2. they had a botch that added to the drama of the match when taka nearly killed Go in a dangerous spot. it went from great to fucking epic on the last move of the match. way surpassed expectations.


----------



## Zatiel

bigbuxxx said:


> misplaced in the puro thread so copy/pasting here...
> 
> Just watched Go/Akiyama. bleh. so disappointed. *** from me. They were sloppy, the crowd wasn't into it, there was no drama, and the finish sucked.


I don't even respect star ratings, but how does being sloppy, having no drama, the crowd not caring and the ending sucking equate to three stars?


----------



## bigbuxxx

it was sloppy at times but those times were pretty often. maybe 3 stars is to much. i thought about putting it lower. there's no way i would ever watch this match again and i would never ever recommend this to anybody.


----------



## antoniomare007

*Kotaro Suzuki vs Katsuhiko Nakajima - NOAH "SHINY NAVIGATION 2011" *

The last 6-7 minutes are amazing and worth the look alone. I'm too tired to write a real review, but this felt like a VERY entertaining spotfest with an awesome finishing stretch. And god damn, Naka's kicks are vicious.


----------



## Bubz

Oh no. Don't let Nervosa see you calling that match a spotfest lol.


----------



## jawbreaker

was that the first Suzuki/Nakajima or the recent one


----------



## SuperDuperSonic

bigbuxxx said:


> it was sloppy at times but those times were pretty often. maybe 3 stars is to much. i thought about putting it lower. there's no way i would ever watch this match again and i would never ever recommend this to anybody.


Are you referring to Low Ki vs. Akira Tozawa?


----------



## bigbuxxx

SuperDuperSonic said:


> Are you referring to Low Ki vs. Akira Tozawa?


no. why would you think that? have never seen a ki/tozawa match. i'm probably missing out on that though.


----------



## SuperDuperSonic

You miss out on the cure to insomnia.


----------



## bigbuxxx

haha. my only exposure to Ki was Ki vs. KENTA from ROH so i'll take your word for it.


----------



## Bubz

Yeah, I wouldn't recommend that match lol.


----------



## antoniomare007

jawbreaker said:


> was that the first Suzuki/Nakajima or the recent one





Bubz said:


> Oh no. Don't let Nervosa see you calling that match a spotfest lol.


I'm talking about the rematch (9/23)


----------



## Bubz

I didn't know they had one. Is it as good as their first?


----------



## antoniomare007

I don't remember anything from the 1st match, lol. But as I said, it's a very entertaining match with a great finish.


----------



## jawbreaker

the first match was phenomenal. my current MOTY and the only one of the year I've given ****1/2 or higher to.


----------



## antoniomare007

yeah, it's not THAT good, lol.


----------



## Bruce L

*Manabu Soya & Seiya Sanada vs. Daisuke Sekimoto & Yuji Okabayashi - 3-21-2011*

I put off watching this for a while, worried that I wouldn't be able to get into it without a working knowledge of either recent All Japan or any of the promotions Sekimoto wrestles in. Turns out I needn't have worried; this is just a great tag match between the "company loyalist" champions and the outsiders trying to take the belts, with the added hate between Soya and Sekimoto. I have to give my biggest shout-out to Sanada, though. He was the guy I most want to see more of based on his performance here.

****½ - Almost certainly tag match of the year


----------



## Bruce L

*Justin Gabriel vs. Tyson Kidd – WWE NXT, 8-9*

I'm coming late to this one, but I haven't been this pleasantly surprised by a match in a long time. It's easy to say this is "good for a WWE TV match," but really, this wouldn't be out of place in Ring of Honor with a slightly faster pace, or in any Japanese junior heavyweight division with some minor tweaks. Kidd has been arguably WWE's in-ring MVP this year (Randy Orton notwithstanding), and Gabriel proved that he's that rarest of commodities: an athletically exciting in-ring performer who also has the looks and charisma to be a bona fide WWE prime-time player. No idea if the company sees the same thing (I could no more watch a full WWE show than I could rip my fingernails out with a crowbar), but it's nice to hope.

***½ – Yeah, probably not an upper-echelon MOTYC, but definitely worth bringing up


----------



## WOOLCOCK

I never really get this whole 'Good for a WWE TV match' thing that crops up in here every now and then, not necessarily saying the above poster meant anything by it but I do think ever since Superstars began in 2009 WWE has been on a roll with Smackdown, Superstars and ECW offering a ton of greatness in that time with the likes of NXT and Raw occasionally having some great matches.

May try and go on a little indy run as I've heard James Mason be pimped to high heaven over at WKO with his feud vs Dean Allmark. There's a Lawler/Bryan Christopher vs Bill Dundee/Dundee jr tag from sometime this year that I want to watch, I doubt it'll be MOTYC status (the guys who have seen it said so themselves) but it sounds like a contender for most enjoyable match of the year and Lawler/Dundee can never be a bad combination.


----------



## Chismo

Shiozaki/Takayama *****1/4*

Fuckyeah, Tak is one bad mofo!


----------



## Fighter Daron

I said so, Tak needs a hard-hitting oponent to fit in the fight.


----------



## Bubz

*Go/Takayama - NOAH 23/9*
Wow, I didn't expect that at all. Tak takes a few chops from Go but just brushes them off and stares him down like a complete boss, then after he takes another hard chop, it's almost as if he realised they actually do hurt, so he goes after Go's arm. Great stuff from here on out, Tak destroys Go's arm for almost the whole match with a relentless assault of arm submissions, knees and kicks. This is the best I've seen him in ages and credit also has to go to Shiozaki for that aswell, he sells the arm really well. Man Go is a great worker and he sells the fuck out of things such as that Dragon Suplex from the apron to the ring like he had just been legit KO'd (in a good un-Davey way). Go gets a comeback using headbutts and kicks because his arm is fucked and it really adds to the story of the match, but Tak is there to go straight back to the arm, awesome stuff. The finish was awesome and they didn't go into ultimate finisher mode like NOAH usually does these days.


SPOILERS for finish...


Go sucking it up, fighting through the pain and lariating the shit out of takayama was awesome.


END SPOILERS.


Like I said I wasn't expecting a match with great psychology and a good story out of this, but thats what we got and it was bloody great. I liked it more than Go/Akiyama simply because of the awesome arm work and selling by Go, but I think it's still slightly behind Sasaki/Sugiura as my Japan MOTY. *****1/2*

Go's reign is off to a good start.


----------



## Caponex75

*NOAH - Go Shiozaki, Takashi Sugiura, & Shuhei Taniguchi vs. Yoshihiro Takayama, KENTA, & Yoshinobu Kanemaru*

This is like watching a blood vs. crips war except everyone throws down their weapons and says "We will not settle this like bitches......WE'LL SETTLE THIS LIKE MEN!" and proceeded to try to murder each other with their God given limbs. I dunno what Go says to Takayama in the beginning but I'm guessing it falls somewhere in the line of "HEY, Bitch" which makes Takayama spontaneously decide to pop out with the most vicious dropkick EVER. Shiozaki and Takayama then decide only one man will live to tell their story throughout the whole match. KENTA find himself getting whipped by Go and when Sugiura tags in, I don't know if KENTA suddenly remembered 2006 where Sugiura beat him for the title or Takashi suggested the Last Airbender movie to him but KENTA rages on him. The heat is so bad between these four that when Taniguchi & Kanemaru are wrestling, epic carnage just proceeds to happen all over the place and there is brawling everywhere. Kids are being eaten, puppies are being stomped, and Grandmas are being pushed over. Just utter madness. This ranks ridiculously high and breaks my top ten easily. Never found myself bored and the storytelling is easy to understand.

****1/2


----------



## bigbuxxx

thanks for rating that. had put it on my watch later list on youtube and now looking forward to it


----------



## TelkEvolon

Noah is having a pretty good year, for all the hype NJPW gets I have hardly seen a NOAH match this year that I didn't like.


----------



## Fighter Daron

Bubz said:


> Go's reign is off to a good start.


Go is being awesome, I gotta watch his second defence right fucking now xD


----------



## antoniomare007

TelkEvolon said:


> Noah is having a pretty good year, for all the hype NJPW gets I have hardly seen a NOAH match this year that I didn't like.


how many matches have you seen?


----------



## TelkEvolon

antoniomare007 said:


> how many matches have you seen?


I don't know.... A heap?


----------



## Fighter Daron

NOAH is not that bad, I don't know why they are considered the TNA of Japan, because their wrestlers are very good, they had a poor booking, that's right, but I think they are improving.


----------



## antoniomare007

idk man, I think this is one of NOAH's weakest years ever. The Jr. division has been stagnant and hasn't had nearly as great matches as before and most of the heavy's matches are hit or miss depending on your enjoyment of the middle portions of all the 27-35 minutes matches.

They have been average at best. Nothing that NOAH has done in 2011 has come close to the G-1, the BOSJ and Tana's & Bad Intentions reigns.


----------



## seabs

*You guys should try sitting through the NOAH matches that dont get mentioned in here. Having 4 or 5 great matches in a year doesnt warrant a promotion having a great year. New Japan dont have shows dripping with MOTYCs like ROH did during their prime but they have consistently good matches in every area on every card. If you watched a random New Japan match from this year 95% likely it'll be a good fun match. If you did the same for NOAH then it 'd be more like 5%, 80% that it'd be a horribly boring match that goes 10-15 minutes too long. *


----------



## Fighter Daron

I've never said NOAH is as good as New Japan, but I think they are not that horrible.


----------



## Chismo

NOAH is doing pretty good in last 4-5 months. I watch their "house shows" in front of 400-500 people too, and I'm completely satisfied with the shows. Especially with 6-man tag main events.


----------



## TelkEvolon

Yeah, all I am saying is that everything I have seen, I have enjoyed, which is all I can ask for from a company.

I've seen probably everything that is avaliable to been seen this year.


----------



## Chismo

Caponex75 said:


> *NOAH - Go Shiozaki, Takashi Sugiura, & Shuhei Taniguchi vs. Yoshihiro Takayama, KENTA, & Yoshinobu Kanemaru*
> 
> This is like watching a blood vs. crips war except everyone throws down their weapons and says "We will not settle this like bitches......WE'LL SETTLE THIS LIKE MEN!" and proceeded to try to murder each other with their God given limbs. I dunno what Go says to Takayama in the beginning but I'm guessing it falls somewhere in the line of "HEY, Bitch" which makes Takayama spontaneously decide to pop out with the most vicious dropkick EVER. Shiozaki and Takayama then decide only one man will live to tell their story throughout the whole match. KENTA find himself getting whipped by Go and when Sugiura tags in, I don't know if KENTA suddenly remembered 2006 where Sugiura beat him for the title or Takashi suggested the Last Airbender movie to him but KENTA rages on him. The heat is so bad between these four that when Taniguchi & Kanemaru are wrestling, epic carnage just proceeds to happen all over the place and there is brawling everywhere. Kids are being eaten, puppies are being stomped, and Grandmas are being pushed over. Just utter madness. This ranks ridiculously high and breaks my top ten easily. Never found myself bored and the storytelling is easy to understand.
> 
> ****1/2


I fucking loved this match, Takayama was amazing here. One of the best 6-man tags, like.... Since All Japan's 90's.


----------



## djmathers1207

Any matches from NXT and Superstars worth watching?


----------



## Yeah1993

Probably not as match of the year contenders, but Gabriel vs. Kidd (NXT last month sometime, I think) was surprisingly good and Master/McIntyre (Superstars...in....like, May or something.I'm probably way off) is well worth your time. Kidd, Masters and Mcintyre are/were generally reliable guys to put on good matches on those small shows. The Tyson Kidd/Yoshi Tatsu I remember liking as well, even if I just watched these in the background while playing a video game.


----------



## Bruce L

Kidd and Trent Barreta also had a pretty good series on Superstars earlier in the year. Their first two matches, at least, are definitely worth your time.


----------



## Bruce L

*Minoru Tanaka vs. Shuji Kondo — All Japan, 3/21*

From time to time, I'll notice a seemingly little thing about a match that will increase my appreciation tremendously, even if I'm pretty sure I've seen it in other matches too. Here, I appreciated the fact that all of the big spots seemed reactive: one guy would be in position for something logical, and the other guy would respond to that with a big spot that made sense in the context. Now, I've seen plenty of matches wherein that was the case, but here, they just seemed to do it in a way that I was a lot more appreciative of than I typically am. Great match.

**** - ****¼


----------



## bigbuxxx

Caponex75 said:


> *NOAH - 9/11/11 - Go Shiozaki, Takashi Sugiura, & Shuhei Taniguchi vs. Yoshihiro Takayama, KENTA, & Yoshinobu Kanemaru*
> 
> ****1/2


Definitely a great match. I'd throw it somewhere around ****1/4. The interaction between Sugiura and KENTA were great because you could feel the hatred of each other radiating off their bodies. Takayama/Go also had some fun brawling. Kanemaru and Taguchi just felt like they were thrown in their but of course that doesn't hurt anything.


----------



## Agmaster

Does this count for MOTY? It's a pretty indy korean fed.
http://www.mangareader.net/the-god-of-high-school/15/8


----------



## wildpegasus

bigbuxxx said:


> Definitely a great match. I'd throw it somewhere around ****1/4. The interaction between Sugiura and KENTA were great because you could feel the hatred of each other radiating off their bodies. Takayama/Go also had some fun brawling. Kanemaru and Taguchi just felt like they were thrown in their but of course that doesn't hurt anything.


This was insanely ludricously awesome. It was like they wrestled this match in tribute for me. Some of the most fun I've had in years watching wrestling. KENTA vs Sugiura was completely off the charts. KENTA's preformance here is the stuff of legends. What a fight. KENTA is insanely tough. I can not wait for their # 1 condtendership match for the heavyweight title. Must, must, must, must see match.

Two other matches I also enjoyed lately were KENTA vs Zack Sabre Jr which seemed to have some Davey Richards influence in it (Commentating was terrific at the end of this) and the rematch between Nakajima and Suzuki. All during the Nakajima match I was thinking about how if I was commentating I would talking about how Nakajima is one of the most dangerous wrestlers out there because of his kicks. Than what happens? Well, watch and find out.


----------



## Bubz

KENTA/Sabre Jr was a great match. Probably about ****1/4.

I have tried to watch a full NOAH show this year, can't remember when or what show exactly but it was about 1 month ago, and it was very tedious indeed I have to say. NOAH has put on some of my favorite matches this year, and I've enjoyed more matches from NOAH than New Japan, but like Seabs said New Japan know how to do a show, something NOAH doesn't seem to be getting recently.


----------



## peachchaos

Does anyone have a clear and cut MOTY at this point? I haven't seen anything I'd even rate ****3/4, and anything close to ****1/2 I could actually be critical of and lower the rating. I guess I haven't watched enough puro, though.


----------



## Fighter Daron

peachchaos said:


> Does anyone have a clear and cut MOTY at this point? I haven't seen anything I'd even rate ****3/4, and anything close to ****1/2 I could actually be critical of and lower the rating. I guess I haven't watched enough puro, though.


Punk/Cena from MITB, Tanahashi/Goto. Those two are in the top.


----------



## smitlick

I haven't watched a lot of 2011 stuff yet but most of what I've seen hasn't been over ****1/4


----------



## Cactus

Punk/Cena at Money in the Bank is my MOTY. It's at ***** and I can't see anything beating it.


----------



## peachchaos

Yeah, I guess Cena/Punk from MITB is the current placeholder. For all my quips about the actual performance, it was as close to a perfect match as we're gonna get from WWE these days. Great story-line, amazing promos leading up to the event, and even the right man going over in the end. In retrospect, this is a pretty easy call. It kinda just hit me how off-the-charts amazing the whole angle really was. Still a ****1/4 match from a psychology/workrate aspect, though. The rematch was better performed, but had a lame crowd and didn't feel as important.

I'll need to rewatch some things, but I recall Generico/Castagnoli from PWG in January being really awesome. Tough to compare a nothing one-off with something as effective as the first Cena/Punk match though.

I was pretty big on the Richards/Edwards BITW match at the time, notwithstanding some obvious flaws. Wonder how that one holds up on second viewing. I know these guys have their detractors around here.


----------



## topper1

Cactus said:


> Punk/Cena at Money in the Bank is my MOTY. It's at ***** and I can't see anything beating it.


Seabs has about 10 random Devitt matches rated the same this year :lmao

Guess that is kinda taking a shot at seabs but I find it comical that he rate's a bunch of throw away matche's on par with the most epic WWE match the WWE or wrestling in the US has had in a while.


----------



## Cactus

Oh, I got around to see Ladder Wars III. Barely a MOTYC, but an interesting take on the ladder match formula. My MOTY standings so far...

*WWE:* Punk vs Cena at MITB *(*****)*
*TNA:* Ion vs Aries vs Evans vs Low-Ki at Destination X *(****1/4)*
*ROH:* Richards vs Edwards at BITW *(****1/2)*
*Indy:* Generico vs Castagnoli at KurtRussellReunion II *(****1/2)*

Still deciding on my puro one.



topper1 said:


> Seabs has about 10 random Devitt matches rated the same this year :lmao
> 
> Guess that is kinda taking a shot at seabs but I find it comical that he rate's a bunch of throw away matche's on par with the most epic WWE match the WWE or wrestling in the US has had in a while.


N'awww. Seabs must just be a huge Devitt fan. I was going to have the Junior tag match from All Together which Devitt was in as my puro MOTY, but I haven't seen enough to make that decision yet. Aside from that, Devitt hasn't blew me away with anything yet.


----------



## antoniomare007

I guess my MOTY is NVC vs Generico/Ricochet. I didn't see so much awesomeness coming and still love that match.

For puro I have the 3/27 AJ vs BJ tag and Tanahashi vs Nagata (which I still don't see how is not better than the Goto match but who cares, lol). I'm still pissed that NOAH did Sugi vs Go at fucking Ariake, that would have been my MOTY with a better crowd.

WWE is Cena vs Punk at MITB and then Orton vs CC at Over The Limit.



topper1 said:


> Seabs has about 10 random Devitt matches rated the same this year :lmao
> 
> Guess that is kinda taking a shot at seabs but I find it comical that he rate's a bunch of throw away matche's on par with the most epic WWE match the WWE or wrestling in the US has had in a while.


? Seabs hasn't given 5 snowflakes to anything this year, I think. You may be confusing Alan4L with Seabs DA GAWD.


----------



## topper1

antoniomare007 said:


> I guess my MOTY is NVC vs Generico/Ricochet. I didn't see so much awesomeness coming and still love that match.
> 
> For puro I have the 3/27 AJ vs BJ tag and Tanahashi vs Nagata (which I still don't see how is not better than the Goto match but who cares, lol). I'm still pissed that NOAH did Sugi vs Go at fucking Ariake, that would have been my MOTY with a better crowd.
> 
> WWE is Cena vs Punk at MITB and then Orton vs CC at Over The Limit.
> 
> 
> 
> ? Seabs hasn't given 5 snowflakes to anything this year, I think. You may be confusing Alan4L with Seabs DA GAWD.


He gave it **** 1/4 the same rating he has given a bunch of matches that no one will remember this time next year.


----------



## antoniomare007

:lmao ok then


----------



## Chismo

*WWE* - Punk/Cena *****3/4*
*TNA* - Contract Match *****1/4*
*ROH* - The Briscoes/The ANX (HTCS) *****1/2*
*Puro* - Shiozaki/Akiyama *****1/2*
*Indy* - The NVC vs Generico & Ricochet *****1/2*


----------



## Clique

peachchaos said:


> Does anyone have a clear and cut MOTY at this point?


Undertaker vs. Triple H - WrestleMania 27


----------



## Bubz

Cena/Punk from Summer Slam is my MOTY. Fucking loved the shit out of it.

*Top 5*

John Cena vs CM Punk (WWE Summerslam) ****3/4
Takashi Sugiura vs Kensuke Sasaki (NOAH 07/23/11) ****1/2
John Cena vs CM Punk (WWE MITB) ****1/2
Claudio Castagnoli vs El Generico (PWG Kurt Russell Reunion II) ****1/2
Chris Hero vs Akira Tozawa (PWG All Star Weekend 8 Night 2) ****1/2

The top 2 and Hero/Tozawa I probably liked a lot more than most people, but these are the matches that are above everything else this year for me.


----------



## peachchaos

Oh god, why did I forget about all of Tozawa's PWG awesomeness? Easily my Worker of the Year based on his Cali output alone. Can you imagine the greatness that would follow if he was aloud to tag along with Steen and destroy ROH?


----------



## seabs

topper1 said:


> Seabs has about 10 random Devitt matches rated the same this year :lmao
> 
> Guess that is kinda taking a shot at seabs but I find it comical that he rate's a bunch of throw away matche's on par with the most epic WWE match the WWE or wrestling in the US has had in a while.


*I don't have any Devitt matches from this year rated over **** actually. I only have 5 Devitt matches from this year rated at **** or higher so... yeah. Punk/Cena would still be top 20 from this year for me though, maybe even top 15.*


----------



## bigbuxxx

> Does anyone have a clear and cut MOTY at this point?


Punk/Cena from MitB will be mine no matter what else happens this year. Honorable mentions to Tanahashi/Goto from 6/18 and Edwards/Richards from BitW.


----------



## seancarleton77

I have KUDO vs. Ishikawa in my top 5 along with Cena vs. Punk I&II, Rollins vs. Ambrose & Sanada & Soya vs. Sekimoto & Okabayashi. Great matches, just not a lot great in the last month.


----------



## asdf0501

MOTYs at This Point

1) Punk vs Cena - MITB
2) Guerrero Maya vs Virus - CMLL
3) Finlay vs Sami Callihan - EVOLVE
4) Dick Togo vs Antonio Honda - DDT

And that is not including stuff from IWRG


----------



## jawbreaker

I need to go back through this thread and find all my posts. I think my list is looking something like this right now:

1. Suzuki vs. Nakajima, 3/1 NOAH, ****1/2
2. Hidaka vs. Sekimoto, 1/1 ZERO-1, ****1/4
3. Castagnoli vs. Generico, Kurt RussellReunion 2, ****1/4
4. Strong vs. Mack, Card Subject to Change 3, ****1/4
5. Goto vs. Tanahashi, NJPW 6/18, ****1/4
6. Strong vs. Briscoe, Only the Strong Survive, ****
7. Strong vs. Edwards, Death Before Dishonor IX, ****
8. Hero vs. Edwards, Revolution Canada, ****

I'm woefully behind on my PWG and CHIKARA and puro in general though, so take this with a grain of salt.


----------



## EffectRaven

ROH Wrestling - 10/1/11

El Generico vs. Jay Lethal - ****1/2*

Not quite MOTYC level but a match definitely worth checking out


----------



## Fighter Daron

The twelve man tag team match from Raw enters onto my list as #3 just behind Tana/Goto and Cena/Punk. What a red hot crowd and nonstop action, it was really fast paced, like Dragon Gate or else.


----------



## Virgil_85

peachchaos said:


> Does anyone have a clear and cut MOTY at this point?


Eddie Edwards vs Davey Richards


----------



## Fighter Daron

Everything worthwatching this year so far:



Indies & Japon Match of the Year 2011 said:


> *Indies*
> 
> *ROH*
> 
> *ROH: Fate of an Angel II *
> *ROH World Championship:* Roderick Strong Vs Christopher Daniels: ****
> 
> *ROH: Tag Title Classic II*
> *ROH World Tag Team Championship:* Kings of Wrestling Vs American Wolves: ****1/2
> 
> *ROH: Only The Strong Survives*
> Davey Richards Vs Chris Hero: ****1/2
> *ROH World Championship:* Roderick Strong Vs Jay Briscoe: ****1/4
> 
> *ROH: 9 Anniversary Show*
> *ROH World Tag Team Championship Nº: 1 Contendership: *The Briscoes Vs Wrestling's Greatest Tag Team: ****
> 
> *ROH: Honor Takes Center Stage Night 1*
> *ROH World Championship:* Eddie Edwards Vs Christopher Daniels: ****1/4
> 
> *ROH: Manhattan Mayhem IV*
> Kings of Wrestling Vs LAX: ****
> *ROH World Championship:* Roderick Strong Vs Eddie Edwards: ****1/4
> 
> *ROH: Defy or Deny*
> *Defy Or Deny Elimination Match:* Roderick Strong Vs El Generico Vs Homicide Vs Jay Briscoe: ****
> Claudio Castagnoli Vs Davey Richards: ****
> 
> *ROH: Best in the World*
> *ROH World Championship:* Davey Richards Vs Eddie Edwards: ****1/2
> 
> *Dragon Gate: USA*
> 
> *DGUSA: United Philly*
> Masato Yoshino & PAC Vs Ricochet & Naruki Doi: ****1/4
> 
> *PWG*
> 
> *PWG: Kurt Russelmania II*
> Low Ki Vs Davey Richards: ****
> Chris Hero Vs Kevin Steen: ****1/4
> *PWG World Championship:* Claudio Castagnoli Vs El Generico: ****3/4
> 
> *PWG: DDT4 2011*
> *DDT 4 Semi-Final Match:* American Wolves Vs Young Bucks: ****1/4
> *DDT 4 Semi-Final Match:* Nightmare Violence Connection Vs Kings of Wrestling: ****1/2
> *DDT 4 Final Match:* Nightmare Violence Connection Vs Young Bucks: ****3/4
> 
> *PWG: Card Subject To Change III*
> Willie Mack Vs Roderick Strong: ****1/2
> *PWG World Championship:* Claudio Castagnoli Vs Joey Ryan: ****
> *PWG World Tag Team Championship:* El Generico & Ricochet Vs Young Bucks: ****1/2
> 
> *EVOLVE*
> 
> *CZW*
> 
> *CZW: Best of the Best X*
> *CZW Ultraviolent Underground Championship:* Jun Kasai vs. Danny Havoc: ****
> 
> *CHIKARA*
> 
> *CHIKARA: King of Trios*
> *Night 1*
> Team Minnesota Vs Team Michinoku-Pro: ****
> 
> *Japón*
> 
> *NOAH*
> 
> *NOAH: First Navigation 2011*
> KENTA Vs Yoshihiro Takayama: ****1/4
> 
> *NOAH: Great Voyage in Tokyo 2011*
> *GHC Jr. Heavyweight Championship:* Kotaru Suzuki Vs Katsuhiko Nakajima: ****1/2
> *GHC Heavyweight Championship:* Takashi Sugiura Vs Giant Bernard: ****1/4
> 
> *NOAH: Great Voyage in Fukuoka 2011*
> Jun Akiyama & Naomichi Marufuji Vs Kensuke Sasaki & Katsuhiko Nakajima: ****
> *GHC Heavyweight Championship:* Takashi Sugiura Vs Trevor Murdoch: ****1/4
> 
> *NOAH: Great Voyage in Tokyo Vol.2*
> Go Shiozaki Vs Shuhei Taniguchi: ****
> *GHC Heavyweight Championship:* Takashi Sugiura Vs Minoru Suzuki: ****1/4
> 
> *NOAH: Anniversary*
> *GHC Heavyweight Championship:* Go Shiozaki Vs Jun Akiyama: ****1/4
> 
> *NOAH: Great Voyage 2011 in Osaka*
> Kensuke Sasaki Vs Takashi Sugiura: ****1/4
> 
> *NJPW*
> 
> *NJPW: Wrestle Kingdom V*
> Yuji Nagata Vs Minoru Suzuki: ****
> *IWGP Jr. Heavyweight Title:* Prince Devitt Vs Kota Ibushi: ****1/2
> Togi Makabe Vs Masato Tanaka: ****
> *IWGP Heavyweight Championship:* Satoshi Kojima Vs Hiroshi Tanahashi: ****1/2
> 
> *NJPW: New Japan Alive*
> *IWGP Heavyweight Championship:* Satoshi Kojima Vs Shinsuke Nakamura: ****1/4
> 
> *NJPW: Fantastica Mania Night 2*
> *IWGP Jr. Heavyweight Tag Team Championship:* Kota Ibushi & Kenny Omega Vs Prince Devitt & Ryusuke Taguchi: ****1/2
> 
> *NJPW: The New Beginning in Miyagi*
> Hirooki Goto Vs Tetsuya Naito: ****
> *IWGP Heavyweight Championship:* Hiroshi Tanahashi Vs Satoshi Kojima: ****3/4
> 
> *NJPW: Wrestling Dontaku 2011*
> *IWGP Jr. Heavyweight Tag Team Championship:* Prince Devitt & Ryusuke Taguchi Vs Davey Richards & Rocky Romero: ****
> *IWGP Tag Team Championship:* Giant Bernard & Karl Anderson Vs Yujiro Takahashi & Tetsuya Naito: ****
> Yuji Nagata Vs Masato Tanaka: ****1/4
> *IWGP Heavyweight Championship:* Hiroshi Tanahashi Vs Shinsuke Nakamura: ****1/4
> 
> *NJPW: Best of the Super Juniors*
> *Night 1*
> *Best of the Super Jr. - Block A:* Koji Kanemoto vs. Fujita "Jr." Hayato: ****
> *Best of the Super Jr. - Block A:* Prince Devitt vs. Davey Richards: ****
> *Night 9*
> *Best of the Super Jr. - Block A:* Davey Richards Vs Kenny Omega: ****
> 
> *NJPW: New Dimension 2011*
> *IWGP Heavyweight Championship:* Hiroshi Tanahashi Vs Yuji Nagata: ****1/4
> 
> *NJPW: Dominion 6.18*
> *IWGP Heavyweight Championship:* Hiroshi Tanahashi Vs Hirooki Goto: ****3/4
> 
> *NJPW: G1 Climax XXI*
> *Night 1*
> *IWGP Jr. Heavyweight Championship:* Kota Ibushi Vs Ryusuke Taguchi: ****
> *G1 Climax - Block A:* Hiroshi Tanahashi Vs Yuji Nagata: ****
> *Night 2*
> *G1 Climax - Block B:* Satoshi Kojima Vs Shinsuke Nakamura: ****1/2
> *Night 3*
> *G1 Climax - Block B:* Hiroyoshi Tenzan Vs Shinsuke Nakamura: ****1/4
> *G1 Climax - Block B:* Hirooki Goto Vs Satoshi Kojima: ****1/4
> *Night 4*
> *G1 Climax - Block A:* Tetsuya Naito Vs Toru Yano: ****
> *Night 6*
> *G1 Climax - Block B:* Hirooki Goto Vs Minoru Suzuki: ****
> *Night 7*
> *G1 Climax - Block B:* Shinsuke Nakamura Vs Karl Anderson: ****
> *Night 8*
> *G1 Climax - Block A:* Yuji Nagata Vs Yoshihiro Takayama: ****1/2
> *G1 Climax - Block B:* Karl Anderson Vs Satoshi Kojima: ****1/4
> *Night 9*
> *G1 Climax - Block A:* Toru Yano Vs Hiroshi Tanahashi: ****1/2
> *G1 Climax - Block B:* Hiroki Goto Vs Shinsuke Nakamura: ****1/4
> *Final Night*
> *G1 Climax - Block B:* Hiroyoshi Tenzan Vs Satoshi Kojima: ****
> *G1 Climax - Block B:* Shinsuke Nakamura Vs Minoru Suzuki: ****1/4
> *IWGP Jr. Heavyweight Tag Team Championship:* Prince Devitt & Ryusuke Taguchi Vs Kota Ibushi & Kenny Omega: ****1/4
> *G1 Climax - Final:* Tetsuya Naito Vs Shinsuke Nakamura: ****1/2
> 
> *NJPW: G1 Climax Special*
> *IWGP Jr. Heavyweight Championship:* Prince Devitt Vs KUSHIDA: ****1/4
> *IWGP Heavyweight Championship:* Hiroshi Tanahashi Vs Shinsuke Nakamura: ****1/2
> 
> *ZERO - 1*
> 
> *ZERO-1: New Year's Show*
> *AWA Heavyweight Championship:* Daisuke Sekimoto Vs Ikuto Hidaka: ****1/2
> 
> *Zero-1: Go For The Birth*
> *AWA World Heavyweight Championship:* Daisuke Sekimoto Vs KAMIKAZE: ****
> 
> *Zero-1: 10th Anniversary*
> Shinjiro Otani Vs Yoshihiro Takayama: ****
> 
> *Kensuke Office*
> 
> *Kensuke Office: Take The Dream 2011*
> Katsuhiko Nakajima & Kengo Mashimo Vs BxB Hulk & Fujita Jr Hayato: ****1/4
> 
> *Dragon Gate*
> 
> *DDT*
> 
> *DDT: Dramatic Fantasia 309
> KO-D Openweight Championship:* Antonio Honda Vs Dick Togo: ****
> 
> *DDT: Dramatic Fantasia 313
> KO-D Openweight Championship:* Dick Togo Vs HARASHIMA: ****
> 
> *DDT: Jugdment 2011
> KO-D Openweight Championship:* Dick Togo Vs Kota Ibushi: ****1/2
> 
> *AJPW*
> 
> *AJPW: Pro Wrestling Love Volume 3*
> *All Asia Tag Team Championship:* Daisuke Sekimoto & Yuji Okabayashi Vs Seiya Sanada & Manabu Soya: ****
> 
> *AJPW: Champion's Carnival*
> *Night 1*
> *Block A:* Suwama Vs Masakatsu Funaki: ****1/4





WWE Match Of The Year 2011 said:


> *WWE: Raw*
> *WWE Championship: *Rey Mysterio Vs John Cena: ****
> Sheamus & Airboom & John Cena & CM Punk & Mason Ryan Vs Dolph Ziggler & Jack Swagger & Christian & Cody Rhodes & David Otunga & Alberto Del Río: ****3/4
> 
> *WWE: Royal Rumble*
> *World Heavyweight Championship:* Edge Vs Dolph Ziggler: ****1/4
> 
> *WWE: Elimination Chamber*
> *World Heavyweight Championship:* Edge vs Drew McIntyre vs Wade Barrett vs Rey Mysterio vs Kane vs ??? - _Elimination Chamber_: ****1/4
> *WWE Championship Nº:1 Contendership: *John Cena vs Randy Orton vs John Morrison vs CM Punk vs R-Truth vs Sheamus - _Elimination Chamber_: ****
> 
> *WWE: Wrestlemania XXVII*
> CM Punk Vs Randy Orton: ****
> Undertaker Vs Triple H - _No Holds Barred_: ****1/2
> 
> *WWE: Extreme Rules*
> *World Heavyweight Championship:* Alberto Del Río Vs Christian – _Ladder Match_: ****1/4
> *WWE Championship:* The Miz Vs John Cena Vs John Morrison – _Steel Cage_: ****
> 
> *WWE: Over The Limit*
> *World Heavyweight Championship:* Randy Orton Vs Christian: ****1/2
> *WWE Championship:* John Cena Vs The Miz - _I Quit Match_: ****
> 
> *WWE: Capitol Punishment*
> CM Punk Vs Rey Mysterio: ****1/2
> 
> *WWE: Money in the Bank*
> *Smack Down! Money in the Bank:* Sheamus Vs Daniel Bryan Vs Cody Rhodes Vs Heath Slater Vs Justin Gabriel Vs Wade Barrett Vs Kane Vs Sin Cara: ****1/4
> *WWE Championship:* John Cena Vs CM Punk: *****
> 
> *WWE: Summerslam*
> *World Heavyweight Championship:* Christian Vs Randy Orton – _No Holds Barred_: ****1/4
> *WWE Undisputed Championship:* John Cena Vs CM Punk – _Special Referee: Triple H_: ****3/4
> 
> *WWE: Hell in a Cell*
> Sheamus Vs Christian: ****
> *WWE Championship:* John Cena Vs CM Punk Vs Alberto Del Río – _Hell in a Cell_: ****1/4





TNA Match of the Year 2011 said:


> *TNA: Genesis*
> *TNA World Tag Team Championship:* Motorcity Machineguns Vs Beer Money: ****1/4
> 
> *TNA: Lockdown*
> Jeff Jarret Vs Kurt Angle – _Three Degrees of Pain_: ****
> Immortal Vs Fortune - _Lethal Lockdown_: ****1/4
> 
> *TNA: Slammiversary IX*
> AJ Styles Vs Bully Ray - _Last Man Standing_: ****1/4
> 
> *TNA: Destination X*
> Rob Van Dam Vs Jerry Lynn: ****
> Austin Aries Vs Zema Ion Vs Low Ki Vs Jack Evans - _Winner Gets a Contract_: ****1/4


----------



## TelkEvolon

There are some head scratchers in there, but a great list.


----------



## Fighter Daron

TelkEvolon said:


> There are some head scratchers in there, but a great list.


Thanks man, but if you think any match just doesn't fit in it, I'd like to know.


----------



## Cactus

Epic list, man. But lay off the huge fonts.


----------



## Fighter Daron

Cactus said:


> Epic list, man. But lay off the huge fonts.


Yeah, after writing the post, I noticed that the font was so huge, well, if you want, I edit it, no problem xD


----------



## Bubz

Yeah, great list. Is the 12 man tag from RAW really that good? Anyone else seen it?


----------



## antoniomare007

idk if you are gonna like it as much as Daron (I didn't, lol) but it's a really fun match to watch.


----------



## Bubz

Just watched it.

*WWE RAW - Cena, Punk, Air Boom, Ryan and Sheamus vs Ziggler, Rhodes, Christian, Del Rio, Otunga and Swagger*

really fun match! Everyone looked good with the short time they got in the ring, especially Ziggler who it seemed was in there the majority of the time for the heel team. Nice workover on Kofi that lead to a great hot tag and comeback for the face team. Very fast paced and full of great action. Wasn't happy with Ziggler taking the fall, but he looked the best in the match so I guess it was okay. ****


----------



## Fighter Daron

antoniomare007 said:


> idk if you are gonna like it as much as Daron (I didn't, lol) but it's a really fun match to watch.


I was going crazy with the match like everyone in the Cajundome, so yeah, I could overrated it xD


----------



## bigbuxxx

Appreciate the list Daron. I'll most likely check out 90+% of those. I've missed alot of the WWE stuff that isn't centered around punk/cena.

I think the Kojima/Tanahashi matches are very overrated. 01/04 match i don't think i could give **** and i'm not gonna bother to actually rate it. new beginning was better, maybe ****. Also thought punk/cena from SSlam was garbage.

I'd add in stuff from DG Japan:
Shingo vs. Tozawa @ DG World Festival - ****1/2
Dragon Kid/PAC vs. CIMA/Ricochet @ DG World Festival - ****1/4
BxB Hulk vs. Mochizuki @ DG World Festival - ****

what would you guys say moty is for the jrs so far in puro? a lot of people say hayato vs kanemoto but i don't see it as motyc and Daron even put it at **** which is def. not moty material. I would put Devitt vs KUSHIDA from 9/19 ahead of that for example.


----------



## jawbreaker

Suzuki vs. Nakajima


----------



## bigbuxxx

Tanahashi vs Nagata - NJPW 4/3 - ****1/4
Must see match imo. Maybe not moty but it's very very entertaining.

Sugiura vs Shiozaki - NOAH 7/10 - ****1/4
Was a good match I guess but it's not watchable over and over like other motyc. I just can't get into all the striking and no selling. Much rather watch Tanahashi sell for Nagata's kicks/slaps or see Takayama beat the shit out of somebody than all that no selling.

Also missing from that list is Shiozaki vs Takayama from 9/23


----------



## Bubz

Shiozaki vs Takayama is awesome.


----------



## Fighter Daron

bigbuxxx said:


> Tanahashi vs Nagata - NJPW 4/3 - ****1/4
> Must see match imo. Maybe not moty but it's very very entertaining.
> 
> Sugiura vs Shiozaki - NOAH 7/10 - ****1/4
> Was a good match I guess but it's not watchable over and over like other motyc. I just can't get into all the striking and no selling. Much rather watch Tanahashi sell for Nagata's kicks/slaps or see Takayama beat the shit out of somebody than all that no selling.
> 
> Also missing from that list is Shiozaki vs Takayama from 9/23


I haven't watched the last two yet, but I will soon.


----------



## Chismo

> I'd add in stuff from DG Japan:
> Shingo vs. Tozawa @ DG World Festival - ****1/2


Sweet Jesus, I need to see this one.



> Shiozaki vs Takayama is awesome.


Indeed. Takayama's performance was awe inspiring.


----------



## Scavo

My 2011 MOTYC list is(not in order):

Sugiura vs. Shiozaki (7-10-11) - *****1/2*

Suzuki vs. Nakajima (9-23-11) - *****1/2*

Edwards vs. Richards - *****3/4*

Briscoes vs. Future Shock - *****1/4*


----------



## Zatiel

Re-watched HHH Vs. Taker today. On the second viewing, it is kind of brutal. HHH doesn't really get any decent character or selling until the last third of the match. Undertaker was killing himself in there, but it wasn't enough for the first half to hold up as any sort of MOTYC.

I still love Generico Vs. Castagnoli, but that has a lot less going on than I remembered. The leg thing isn't as big as I'd thought. Generico's still the best underdog in wrestling, and Castagnoli still rocks, but not the world-moving match I'd remembered. Also, the ending still rules.


----------



## Caponex75

Richards vs. Strong is a great match but the quality is horrible. You can barely hear the crowd or the action. Bad production that ROH needs to get over. 


Oh and while Richards is a great wrestler....he really needs to stop going for the obvious kickout into Anklelock move. Just knock the guy out and snatch in the damn lock. 2010 is over, we get the transition now.


----------



## bigbuxxx

Zatiel said:


> Re-watched HHH Vs. Taker today. On the second viewing, it is kind of brutal. HHH doesn't really get any decent character or selling until the last third of the match. Undertaker was killing himself in there, but it wasn't enough for the first half to hold up as any sort of MOTYC.


haha i just finished it to and came to give an opinion about it

i remember seeing this when WM happened and it was exciting and fun but on this second viewing it was boring. would give it like maybe ***1/2.

watched Goto vs Nakamura from the G-1 Climax on 8/13 and would give that somewhere north of ****

also watched cena/punk from MitB today and would give that ***** again.

others: Suzuki vs Nakajima from 9/23 ****, so close to being epic but two major botches and it was too short.
Hero vs. Richards from Only the Strong Survive - ****1/4 - very very good match. they came up with a bunch of creative spots and certainly didn't feel like they were just going through the normal routines.


----------



## Wrestling is Life

I would put Castagnoli vs Hero from PWG Eight at at least ****. The match had a nice progression and was scientifically sound.


----------



## Caponex75

EVERYONE I HAVE URGENT NEWS: Claudio vs. Generico from BOLA 2011 is the something you must see. Sloppy, botch that makes Claudio go NUTS, goofy, and epicness. Might be one of my favorite PWG matches out there.


----------



## Bubz

racoonie said:


> I would put Castagnoli vs Hero from PWG Eight at at least ****. The match had a nice progression and was scientifically sound.


It's an amazing match. Just awesome story telling and selling by both guys. The psychology in there is great.


----------



## Chismo

*Go Shiozaki vs. Yoshihiro Takayama (NOAH, 9/23/2011)*

What a beautiful match this was. Takayama's performance was awe inspiring, he looked, moved and acted like some hybrid of Andre Teh Giant and Ric Flair. I'm telling you, his control sessions are beautiful, this guy is so entertaining to watch. Forearms, high kicks, knees and AAARGHHHHHH. He tried to destroy Shiozaki's right hand because of chops, and it worked. Go sold it very well, and I LOVED the fact that Go had to use his left hand for chops and lariats, especially at the end where he delivered couple of left-hand lariats only to hulk-up ala Kobashi and decapitate Takayama with his fucked up hand. Great story telling, selling and strategies by both of them. Shiozaki is such a great champion right now, and I'm looking forward to his next defense, which is against KENTA or Sugiura, they had some promos after the match. I didn't understand the word they were saying, but it sounded hilarious for the crowd. Oh, and that fucking crowd was the only bad thing about the match, they were too fucking silent. 
Anyway, this is my #2 in Japan 2011, right behind Shiozaki/Akiyama.
*****1/2*


----------



## TelkEvolon

Great review, Shiozaki seems to be picking up right where he left off as the ace of the company.


----------



## Bubz

Caponex75 said:


> EVERYONE I HAVE URGENT NEWS: Claudio vs. Generico from BOLA 2011 is the something you must see. Sloppy, botch that makes Claudio go NUTS, goofy, and epicness. Might be one of my favorite PWG matches out there.


Capone have you seen the whole show? Didn't think people would have got it that quick.


----------



## Caponex75

Haven't watched the whole show but select matches. Small review I guess: Finlay vs. Steen was allot of fun and I want to see Finlay face a pissed of Davey Richards. I almost forgot how stiff Finlay is and how he can make matches not seem like pointless exhibitions. Generico/Claudio is a match everyone should go out of their way to see. Fell in love with this. KOW/Bucks sucked. Claudio was great but Hero has just become so meh. I don't know if it was because they were faces but Hero really really made me not happy to see this. Bucks were great heel bumpers but they kinda devolved back to their 2008 ways of lets do moves kinda deal. The finals were awesome. About to spoil it but I was really annoyed with how Generico & Steen opened DBD last year and called it the opposite of intense hate filled match they had been advertising in promos. This was the match they should of had(Minus some kick outs). Great match and I felt the hate. Also great storytelling moments and just a overall blast full of character yet great action. Might be MOTN.


----------



## TelkEvolon

Caponex75 said:


> Haven't watched the whole show but select matches. Small review I guess: Finlay vs. Steen was allot of fun and I want to see Finlay face a pissed of Davey Richards. I almost forgot how stiff Finlay is *and how he can make matches seem like pointless exhibitions*. Generico/Claudio is a match everyone should go out of their way to see. Fell in love with this. KOW/Bucks sucked. Claudio was great but Hero has just become so meh. I don't know if it was because they were faces but Hero really really made me not happy to see this. Bucks were great heel bumpers but they kinda devolved back to their 2008 ways of lets do moves kinda deal. The finals were awesome. About to spoil it but I was really annoyed with how Generico & Steen opened DBD last year and called it the opposite of intense hate filled match they had been advertising in promos. This was the match they should of had(Minus some kick outs). Great match and I felt the hate. Also great storytelling moments and just a overall blast full of character yet great action. Might be MOTN.


This match did take place in PWG right?


----------



## Caponex75

I edited. I meant NOT like pointless exhibitions.


----------



## Bubz

Can't wait to see that show. I might like the KOW/Bucks match more than you, Hero is my favorite wrestler on the indies.


----------



## bigbuxxx

Apollo 55 vs. No Remorse Corps - NJPW 10/10: ****-****1/2. Will have to watch again but easy motyc imo.

Tanahashi vs. Naito - NJPW 10/10: ****. a couple botches cut this down but get rid of those and make Naito champ and easy motyc here


----------



## seabs

*Prince Devitt & Ryusuke Taguchi vs Davey Richards & Rocky Romero - IWGP Jr. Tag Team Championships - NJPW 10.10.2011*
_Maybe the best juniors match all year, definitely cant think of another traditional juniors style match that I've thought was better than this. They've had a couple of other tries together before and didn't really hit it off but they sure did here. Structured really well with a great control segment getting the heat on Devitt before going into moves territory but it helped the cut the finish off from the rest of the match and it had a clear beginning, middle and end which is sadly a bonus for juniors matches but certainly a welcome one in this case. Probably Davey's best performance all year for my liking as well, definitely stronger than anything he's done in ROH this year. Said it before but midcard matches suit him much more when he's toned down and even more so in New Japan where he doesn't have to go over 20 minutes and try to make the show in his match. His heel act felt much more natural and not as forced too and it got over much better with the crowd. Match was structured so beautifully towards the finish too. Awesome stuff._

*****1/4*

*Tana/Naito is definitely worth watching too if just for the last third of the match. First two thirds of it were just there and really average but then the last 10 minutes or thereabouts are amazing and there's some brilliant near falls. Everything before that and some selling issues from Naito meant it wasn't great though. I'd say around ***1/2 or something like that.*


----------



## wildpegasus

Yeah fantastic IWGP Jr tag match. It's definitely a match I will be watching again in the future. Davey's heeling was purposely more in line with Romero's heel act here and made NRC even more of a unit complete with wardrobe, different style hair and tights. I think it'd be cool if he switches a little bit in how he acts and looks when in a tag with Romero and than in a singles match where he reverts back to more his normal self. Romero is a strong heel and the heeling tribute to Terry Funk on the mic had me marking out at the end of this.

Btw, has anyone kicked out of the powerbomb yet?


----------



## antoniomare007

co-sign the love for the Apollo 55 vs No Remorse Corps tag. It's amazing how Davey is less annoying in Japan and how Rocky works his role to perfection. Better than the Apollo 55 vs Golden Lovers tags this year, for sure.

Tanahashi vs Naito was awesome too. Not a classic by any means but the last 7-8 minutes alone are worth the download. Naito has to be win belt in 2012.


----------



## Bubz

*NJPW - Apollo 55 vs NRC 10/10/11*
Pretty much exactly what Seabs and others have said. The match had a good structure and an awesome finishing stretch. I think this is where Davey is really in his element and I think I prefer him as the dickhead heel. Romero is awesome, I miss that guy wrestling in ROH and PWG. *****1/4 *

Davey is great in Japan and the NRC are a great team, it would be awesome if Romero would come back to ROH and Davey would join him and turn on Eddie thus turning heel in the process. Just sayin lol.


----------



## TelkEvolon

Bubz said:


> *NJPW - Apollo 55 vs NRC 10/10/11*
> Davey is great in Japan and the NRC are a great team, it would be awesome if Romero would come back to ROH and Davey would join him and turn on Eddie thus turning heel in the process. Just sayin lol.


Richards & Romero vs Edwards & Strong, would have to happen then.


----------



## seancarleton77

Am I the only one who puts Naito/Tana above NRC/A55? I gave Tanahashi vs. Naito around ****1/4.


----------



## seabs

*Watched the 23/9 NOAH show. Suzuki/Nakajima had the potential early on to be a low **** match but then the first botch came and many more followed and they just totally killed what could have been a really good match. The first suicide dive botch where Nakajima missed his cue was really awkward and ugly looking and really killed their momentum. Then the suicide dive that Suzuki overshot, Nakajima falling off the top rope and going back up to do the spot rather than improvising, Suzuki's missed flying knee from the top and the failed pin attempt just killed the match. Kinda liked the finish but they should have had Nakajima pin Suzuki off it rather than doing a KO finish that suddenly. Saying that though the match was structured really well towards the title change and botches aside it was really good but when you have them many botches that were all so bad it totally kills the match which was a shame.

Shiozaki/Takayama was good but again NOAH's insistence on matches going far longer than they should do hurt the match. Had they worked the same match in no longer than 15 minutes then it would have been MOTYC material but instead it dragged on and they started losing the crowd at points.*


----------



## Bruce L

TelkEvolon said:


> Richards & Romero vs Edwards & Strong, would have to happen then.


I'd pay money for that match.


----------



## TheAce

> Davey is great in Japan


Davey Richards is a pretty simple read. He sucks as a face and is great as a heel, pretty much %100 IMO.

As a heel he tones down the move overkill and all his traits that are "nails on a chalkboard" annoying as a face work in his favour as a heel.

I really like the douche bag, stiff striking, fan kicking Davey Richards


----------



## peachchaos

I think its pretty obvious most guys are more entertaining as heels. There's just more material to work with; being a bad guy is always cooler.


----------



## seancarleton77

peachchaos said:


> I think its pretty obvious most guys are more entertaining as heels. There's just more material to work with; being a bad guy is always cooler.


Yeah, in a lot of cases. Though guys like Generico & Jay Lethal are better suited as face. Davey Richards is a natural born killer, he is 100% heel, his face shtick is more annoying than Cena's ever was! When Bryan proclaimed Davey the Best in the World, Davey should have kicked his fucking head in and tried to injure him so the fans would hate him forever, but instead they went with unstoppable face Davey as Champion and I'm willing to bet it has taken away a lot of interest in ROH, has for me anyway.


----------



## Chismo

That's why Davey needs to turn heel on Eddie and ROH, and reveal that he was Steen't helper all the time. They could form some kind of Two-Man Power Trip.

Anyway: *Eddie, Lethal, Generico and O'Reilly* as top faces vs. *Steen, Davey, Ciampa and Cole* as top heels. WAR!


----------



## peachchaos

Meh. Turning Davey face was the smart thing to do since nobody was booing him and everyone wanted him to be champion. With ROH usually having such terrible crowds, its always hard for anyone to get over as a heel. Look at Steen now. He's clearly the top bad guy but he'll never get booed no matter what he does. Fans even wanted him to PPD Silken for christ sake.


----------



## TheAce

^^^^ Maybe I'm wrong but I feel that reaction to the Silkin/Steen interaction was just a NY/Philly ROH crowd reaction.

I used to love the New York shows and some stuff still comes of really awesome there but for the most part the crowds are horrible in everyway other than that they can get loud and provide that "atmosphere" that ROH so despretely lacks on some "house" shows.

It's a real catch 22 for ROH....


----------



## flag sabbath

I thought the NY crowd was fairly subdued at the last two ppvs. Pops for big moves & dueling chants, but nothing resembling the sustained heat they used to generate.


----------



## TelkEvolon

JoeRulz said:


> That's why Davey needs to turn heel on Eddie and ROH.


Yep, Davey is a far better heel and I think Eddie is actually far better as a face.


----------



## bigbuxxx

flag sabbath said:


> I thought the NY crowd was fairly subdued at the last two ppvs.


at the last DBD i was expecting a huge pop for steen but it just didn't happen and wasn't as special as it was at BitW and tbh it made it look pretty lame.


----------



## jawbreaker

Nightmare Violence Connection vs. RockNES Monsters, PWG All-Star Weekend 8 Night 2: holy fucking shit. need to give this a rewatch sometime when I'm not stoned but this was seriously one of the best matches I've seen in years. ****3/4, if not for a couple segments where it dragged for a couple minutes I might be talking *****.

Every babyface in wrestling needs to watch Johnny Goodtime wrestle. If I made a list of the top ten indy workers, I think he might be on it.


----------



## Concrete

jawbreaker said:


> Nightmare Violence Connection vs. RockNES Monsters, PWG All-Star Weekend 8 Night 2: holy fucking shit. need to give this a rewatch sometime when I'm not stoned but this was seriously one of the best matches I've seen in years. ****3/4, if not for a couple segments where it dragged for a couple minutes I might be talking *****.
> 
> Every babyface in wrestling needs to watch Johnny Goodtime wrestle. If I made a list of the top ten indy workers, I think he might be on it.


It was most likely because you were stoned. I thought it was a pretty sweet match but around ***3/4 for me and that would probably still be high for some people.


----------



## TelkEvolon

enlightenedone9 said:


> It was most likely because you were stoned. I thought it was a pretty sweet match but around ***3/4 for me and that would probably still be high for some people.


Yeah, really fun and a good match, I wouldn't put it past ***3/4.

But hell, if you can see a 5 star match, regardless of what it is, then that's always great.


----------



## seabs

*I wasn't stoned when I watched it and I fucking adored it too. ****1/2*


----------



## dk4life

Nah I was stoned and thought the match was awesome, but I put NVC match on night one higher, its my current match of the year, I loved it that much


----------



## Concrete

That match did about as much for me as the freestyle match from Enter the Dragon last year. Awesome stuff but not enough for me to put it into 4 star territory. But clearly that is just how I feel. You guys can rate any match as high or as low as you want.


----------



## jawbreaker

okay being high fucked with my perception of time a bit. The workover of Goodtime felt a lot longer than it actually was, but the parts I thought dragged felt like they dragged a lot more. I think I'm going to go ****1/2 for my final rating. Maybe my MOTY.

Previous night's NVC tag I have at ****1/4 btw.


----------



## seabs

jawbreaker said:


> okay being high fucked with my perception of time a bit. The workover of Goodtime felt a lot longer than it actually was, but the parts I thought dragged felt like they dragged a lot more. I think I'm going to go ****1/2 for my final rating. Maybe my MOTY.
> 
> Previous night's NVC tag I have at ****1/4 btw.


*Same thoughts on it as that post. The craziest part is that Generico/Edwards and Hero/Tozawa on the same show are even better and the Bucks/GenNext match is close to it.*

*KAI vs Koji Kanemoto - AJPW 25.09.2011*
_Finals of the Jr. League and it plays really nicely as a climax to a tournament as well as being a great match in it's own right. Kanemoto was the dickhead outsider and KAI was the top babyface junior in the company. Koji had been tearing through everyone with his ankle lock and KAI had his leg worked in his previous match on the same show which set the base for the match up really sweetly. Face/heel dynamic is really great. Koji's such a natural prick and the added fact that he's an outsider in the tournament only adds to it. KAI at this point has just won the belt and is rising to the very top of the junior ranks and establishing himself as the #1 junior in the company. When I first knew he won I was a bit miffed cause I don't like champs winning leagues like this but he's not at the level of a Hayashi yet so he still gets the boost from it but it also really did a tremendous job of cementing his top babyface status within the division, especially in this match overcoming Kanemoto and all the adversity put in his way. Leg work is really good and KAI does a great job of selling it too. Consistent and I really liked how every time he'd start to try to build some momentum it'd be the leg that brought him back down. Koji is naturally great and he seconds KAI brilliantly. Koji getting pissed at KAI's resilience and just resorting to punching him right in the face was super and did wonders for KAI as a babyface too. Pleasantly suprised at the lack of a huge finishing stretch with big spots considering it was the final and All Japan junior matches have a bad tendancy for doing that a lot anywhere, pretty much all of KAI's title matches to date have kinda been tarred by it. Isn't as good as 55/NRC but it's not far behind and still a legit Jr. MOTYC. Everyone should watch it regardless of their tastes as there's plenty to please different tastes with the excellent leg work, the big moves and also a great strike segment._

*****+*


----------



## WOOLCOCK

Kanemoto is legit one of the only juniors I can watch nowadays and safely feel I won't be dissapointed by what I witness. Like you said he's a great wrestling heel and knows how to do a lot of good matwork and make it look organic and unco-operative compared to when some juniors just breeze through it to set up some fancy looking sequence. He also builds his matches brilliantly and sets up a lot of the spots of the match much better than other workers and thus they usually feel like a big deal, his ongoing rivalry with Hayato is probably the only juniors matchup I'm not rolling my eyes over when I see it announced. 

Hoping in the next few days to watch some more 2011 stuff, most likely some of James Mason's best work from the year mainly his feud with Dean Albreak and hopefully Finlay's BOLA match with Steen whenever it surfaces online. Though I'm already expecting to be annoyed with some of Steen's schtick in the match based off of reviews I've seen online.


----------



## seancarleton77

I agree completely about Kanemoto. He, Nakajima and Hayato are the only safe bets in today's Jr. weight class, looks like KENTA is going to be a small heavyweight (hopefully), so I don't count him.


----------



## Bubz

I think KENTA should definitely move away from the Jr division now, probably because I want to see him battle heavyweights more, as they always end up entertaining and having a good story with KENTA trying to overcome the odds and cutting down the bigger opponents with his kicks etc.

I haven't watched that NVC vs Rockness match, might give it a download sometime soon. But NVC vs Generico and Ricochet is my tag MOTY. Hero/Tozawa from night two is better though, it's in my top 5 I think.


----------



## jawbreaker

Just rewatched the NVC-RockNES match for the third time in 24 hours. Definitely ****1/2 at the very least.

Segunda, have you seen much Johnny Goodtime shit? If you might have any interest on a real good babyface character who works a modern indy style, he might be up your alley.


----------



## asdf0501

KENTA is fucked Up, he sucks when has to wrestle jrs because looks in another planet in comparison to them but at the same time he is to small to look credible wining against heavyweights.

NOAH is really desperate if he is the Man being push at this stage over Morishima, Taniguchi or even Rikio and Yone 




Segunda Caida said:


> Kanemoto is legit one of the only juniors I can watch nowadays and safely feel I won't be dissapointed by what I witness. Like you said he's a great wrestling heel and knows how to do a lot of good matwork and make it look organic and unco-operative compared to when some juniors just breeze through it to set up some fancy looking sequence. He also builds his matches brilliantly and sets up a lot of the spots of the match much better than other workers and thus they usually feel like a big deal, his ongoing rivalry with Hayato is probably the only juniors matchup I'm not rolling my eyes over when I see it announced.


This sums my opinion on current Jrs Wrestling

But you need to see more of Hayato's work in Michinoku if you like the Kanemoto's Matches. Especially the Kenou (Ou Kobushi) series, Michinoku probably has the better jrs wrestlers at the moment: Hayato, Kenou and Rui hyugaji. Wrestlers that seems more influenced by Strong Style and Shoot Style than spoty current jrs wresling

Pd: Inglish is not my first langueage so sorry for the bad writing


----------



## TelkEvolon

KENTA is always better against bigger guys, so this should work out well.

Yoshinobu Kanemaru is also someone who I feel is highly underrated.


----------



## Caponex75

Best of Dragon Gate for this year plz. Just watched Tozawa vs. YAMATO and forgot how how much Dragon Gate rocked. Need links.


----------



## seancarleton77

Rikio & Yone suck, and Taniguchi is kind of plain white rice (Not a stereotype joke, it's a lack of charisma joke), besides KENTA would fuck 'em all up in a bar fight at the same time, he deserves the push over all of them, Mori' is the man though!


----------



## seabs

Caponex75 said:


> Best of Dragon Gate for this year plz. Just watched Tozawa vs. YAMATO and forgot how how much Dragon Gate rocked. Need links.


*Just download everything from 2011 MOTYC Links post in the Media section and you'll be tidy. *


----------



## Fighter Daron

TelkEvolon said:


> Yoshinobu Kanemaru is also someone who I feel is highly underrated.


Kanemaru is awful as hell.


----------



## WOOLCOCK

jawbreaker said:


> Just rewatched the NVC-RockNES match for the third time in 24 hours. Definitely ****1/2 at the very least.
> 
> Segunda, have you seen much Johnny Goodtime shit? If you might have any interest on a real good babyface character who works a modern indy style, he might be up your alley.


Never heard of him tbh, though admittedly my interest in indy wrestling isn't great bar watching the occasional PWG and ROH match, PWG because its a blast to sit through and ROH because I do like a lot of the angles they run so I try and give them chance after chance to put on matches that make me want to come back and watch more.

Still I'm a huge mark for southern tag formula so assuming Goodtime can take and sell a beating like a champ and his partner can work well off of the hot tag I'm down with it, if the opponents heel it up like any tag heels should then that's just the cherry on top.


----------



## Chismo

SC, ever heard of Craig Classic? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nX2olttV5iM


----------



## WOOLCOCK

Nope and from what I just saw I doubt i'll watch more of him, granted he's in there with the god awful Sawa but I couldn't even make it 5 minutes through the match. Who's the face and who's the heel, who's the better wrestler/underdog, is there a clear danager that one wrestler is better than the other and the story revolves around that wrestler trying to negate the disadvantage? Nah 5 minutes of strike exchanges which didn't even look that good and it ends with Craig Classic breaking up a leg submission to start another strike exchange in the middle of the ring, FFS.

We need more Chris Hamrick in the indies, guy takes a modified RKO after attempting Sheamus's springboard into the ring spot, contorts his body to be rock solid and calls for assistance, ref stops match, 2 minutes to be helped to his feet where he almost falls backwards to sell the damage.....only to cheapshot the face from behind and then sarcastically sell his now better neck. Character work, entertaining and a true sign of who to root for and who to root against. Hell of a bumper as well as being surprisingly agile for a man of his physique.


----------



## jawbreaker

Segunda Caida said:


> Never heard of him tbh, though admittedly my interest in indy wrestling isn't great bar watching the occasional PWG and ROH match, PWG because its a blast to sit through and ROH because I do like a lot of the angles they run so I try and give them chance after chance to put on matches that make me want to come back and watch more.
> 
> Still I'm a huge mark for southern tag formula so assuming Goodtime can take and sell a beating like a champ and his partner can work well off of the hot tag I'm down with it, if the opponents heel it up like any tag heels should then that's just the cherry on top.


The RockNES/NVC tag is kind of southern tag formula, but with just enough differences to stand out. For instance, instead of the smaller Johnny Yuma getting the workover, it's Goodtime, which IMO works better than it would have with Yuma, because the image of tiny little Johnny Yuma trying desperately to make a tag while Steen has Goodtime in a camel clutch and Tozawa just poses behind him is amazing.

The other thing that makes me really love this match was that Tozawa finally heeled it up to match Steen. He didn't really do it in the previous night's NVC tag, but in the RockNES one he was fucking great. And Steen was in his element as the total dickhead heel who refuses to take his opponent seriously.

Man I cannot say enough good things about this match. The last time I enjoyed a match this much was the Young Bucks vs. 2 Skinny Black Guys tag from Threemendous II, and this one was much better in terms of objective quality.


----------



## WOOLCOCK

Will give it a watch in the near future then when uni work lightens up and my schedule isn't otherwise consumed with socialising. I do enjoy Steen when he's not going overboard with the dickhead character (which admittedly is more frequent in PWG where the onus is on fun as opposed to serious, I could though occasionally do with him wrestling a bit more..especially when its Finlay he's pissing around with). Heard a lot of good things about Tozawa without seeing much of him, I do have this fear he'll perhaps be a little too overkill/flashy for my personal taste although my adoration for 2010 Hero makes me feel compelled to at least watch their PWG match from last year.

Still just heard Fujiwara teamed with Kana to take on Yuki Ishikawa and some other person, the match featured Ishikawa and Fujiwara tearing it up and Ishikawa treating Kana like he does Daisuke Ikeda. Which if you've seen their matches means a woman gets fucked up from shoot punches to the FACE.


----------



## jawbreaker

haven't seen the Finlay match, but Steen's antics work perfectly in the RockNES tag, because the backstory is that after they won a big four-way tag, he comes out and beats the shit out of them for no real reason. RockNES are out for both revenge and to get Steen to take them seriously, and his total refusal to do so during the match is great heel work. the fact that he gets cheered for it makes me love the match even more for whatever reason.

also definitely give Hero/Tozawa from BOLA a look. it's really good.


----------



## WOOLCOCK

Sweet, cheers for the heads up on the explanation. Always better knowing as much of the detail going in to appreciate the overall story being told. The Finlay match hasn't surfaced online properly yet that I've heard but a bunch of guys who went to the show specifically to see Finlay/Steen said how Steen apparently went really overboard with the one liners and immitated almost a stand up comedy routine, which they hated because apparently when he wasn't fooling around he and Finlay meshed really well and the antics robbed us of a potentially awesome match.

Yeah for Hero I'll give it a go and I've heard they went more in a purposeful direction in booking Tozawa strong in terms of how much he kicked out of, instead of doing it for little reason and killing Hero's arsenal of credible finishers which always gets a big plus from me. Similar thing occurred in Finlay/Callihan.


----------



## Bruce L

*Hiroshi Tanahashi vs. Tetsuya Naitō – IWGP Heavyweight Championship – 10/10*
Tanahashi's current IWGP title reign has seen him facing guys he's gone up against several times before (Kojima, Nagata, Goto, Nakamura, Bernard), and almost without exception, each of his defenses has been the best match he's ever had (or close to it) against that particular opponent. (The exception, oddly, is Nakamura, the guy always cited as his greatest rival.) This is no exception, and might actually surpass the Goto defense as my pick for best New Japan match of the year. ****¾


*Apollo 55 vs. Davey Richards & Rocky Romero – IWGP Jr. Tag Team Championship – 10/10*
It's weird seeing Davey Richards' over-the-top heel schtick in a 2011 match, so long after Ring of Honor fans' refusal to boo him led to him first abandoning it and then replacing it with a face schtick that really doesn't suit him any better. _(I'll deviate from the consensus here and argue that he absolutely should not be a heel in RoH; clear-cut "good guy/bad guy" distinctions never work as well there as they're meant to, and he stopped being a heel in the first place because the fans wouldn't accept him as one anymore. Besides that, he's the best possible choice on a badly depleted current roster to be the face of the company in its new TV era.)_ It's also nice to be reminded just how awesome a team he and Romero are, and to see them get a taste of big-league gold in Japan. ****+


----------



## Chismo

Segunda Caida said:


> Nope and from what I just saw I doubt i'll watch more of him, granted he's in there with the god awful Sawa but I couldn't even make it 5 minutes through the match. *Who's the face and who's the heel, who's the better wrestler/underdog, is there a clear danager that one wrestler is better than the other and the story revolves around that wrestler trying to negate the disadvantage?* Nah 5 minutes of strike exchanges which didn't even look that good and it ends with Craig Classic breaking up a leg submission to start another strike exchange in the middle of the ring, FFS.


Why is that crucial in order to have a good match? I'm following this guy Classic for a while now, and he's doing a great job in Japan. He can structure a match, and I like his mix of styles (strikes, submissions, old school control periods, suplex here and there), no move is wasted with him.


----------



## smitlick

JoeRulz said:


> Why is that crucial in order to have a good match? I'm following this guy Classic for a while now, and he's doing a great job in Japan. He can structure a match, and I like his mix of styles (strikes, submissions, suplex here and there), no move is wasted with him.


Evolve for example is a massive showing as to why having faces/heels is massively important. Fans need to cheer and boo guys.


----------



## WOOLCOCK

I like matches to have a clear worker who's established as better, its partly why I never dug the Benoit/Angle series. I'd have sooner wished they made Benoit appear the better grappler with his stiffness as well as technical ability being too much for Angle, who instead having been made out to be no match for Benoit in this area attempt to cheat and take shortcuts. Here you establish a clear story of Benoit being the better wrestler and Angle perhaps being the more intelligent of the two as well as setting up a clear face/heel dynamic and allowing both characters to be shown to the audience.

I couldn't tell at all who I was meant to be buying as a face/heel in that match and because they never attempted to make one guy look better than the other there was little reason to stay gripped to the match, especially because the work within the holds was nothing special and certainly not on Solar/Navarro or Volk Han/Tamura levels where you can get away with doing a two maestros cancelling each other out story. They just went for an epic strike exchange battle with little thought about building to certain spots or submissions and seemed to be trying to immitate BattlARTS, then again I put the blame more on Sawa than I do Classic there because I'm used to seeing this from Sawa hence my criticism when seeing he was who Classic was wrestling.

I never said it was necessary for all these things to be present to make a good match, simply however what I enjoy/prefer when watching matches.


----------



## Chismo

smitlick said:


> Evolve for example is a massive showing as to why having faces/heels is massively important. Fans need to cheer and boo guys.


Not in Japan. There's no traditional heroes and villains in Japan.


----------



## Fighter Daron

I saw that Zero 1 match earlier this year and it didn't tell me anything new, and I really like Sawa.


----------



## smitlick

JoeRulz said:


> Not in Japan. There's no traditional heroes and villains in Japan.


On the very rare occasion where both guys are super talented, you can have no face/heel combination but even in Japan, there a bad guys and good guys. Especially nowadays. Dragon Gate for example have done the whole faction good/bad thing fairly successfully for awhile now.


----------



## Bubz

SC, I can't pimp the Hero/Tozawa matches enough, both are amazing. This years match at ASW was just that much better than the BOLA match last year though, really played off of the previous match and both have an awesome big man little man dynamic.


----------



## wildpegasus

smitlick said:


> On the very rare occasion where both guys are super talented, you can have no face/heel combination but even in Japan, there a bad guys and good guys. Especially nowadays. Dragon Gate for example have done the whole faction good/bad thing fairly successfully for awhile now.


Yeah, this is true but Japan for the most part has almost always done the bad guy vs good guy thing in a way I much prefer when compared to the overtop corny cliche, unbelievable bad guy vs good guy stuff you'd often get in North America. 
In Japan, bad guys I always found weren't truly bad guys and good guys weren't always pretending to be good either. They were just "being themselves" and whatever actions resulted from that resulted from that hence making any actions more believable.

You know when I first started watching wrestling as a young lad, I was never about good guys vs bad guys. I never thought it was believable for every single match to be that way. From the very beginning I was about what type of heart each wrestler was showing. It didn't matter if it was a good guy or a bad guy. In 1991 while watching a Lyger match, I first heard the term "fighting spirit". It stuck with me and I would than use it while talking about wrestling or other activities as well. To me it represented everything that Japanese wrestling was. What the wrestlers were fighting for, how the fans even reacted to the product, how I watched it and what I wanted out of my wrestling. It's very cool how years later the term has grown and has even been used to describe a lot of Indy wrestling here in North America these day. Yup, there's bad and good guys in Japanese wrestling but the real heart of Japanese wrestling and what makes it so awesome for me has always been the "fighting spirit". Japan has never insulted my intelligence with the good guy vs bad guys matches. North America has a million times over.
Now, I'm not saying Bad guys vs good guys doesn't work with the crowd. I'm saying what I like.


----------



## Rickey

Really enjoyed Bully Ray/Anderson from TNA Bound for Glory 2011. Bully Ray plays a great heel, and actually helps put the face over while also getting the crowd to hate him. Kinda a lesser version of the Bully Ray/AJ Styles Last Man Standing Match but enjoyable non the less.

Also recommend Aries vs. Kendrick from the same show.


----------



## Kid Kamikaze10

Yeah, out of the BFG matches, Aries/Kendrick and Bully/Anderson are the only matches of note, IMO.


----------



## Yeah1993

I think wrestling in Japan is treated more like a sport than it is everywhere else. You can cheer for who you like, and if a guy wants to be a heel like Stan Hansen or Dan Kroffat, that's their choice. There are heels in a lot of situations, like Masa Chono in the mid/late 90s (I think, anyway- pretty sure that's right), but it's more about competition than it is about good vs. bad in America. 

I much, much, much prefer a face vs. heel dynamic, but I like to look at Japanese wrestling like an anime. Misawa vs. Kawada is Goku vs. Vegeta to me. Misawa's Goku, the top tier hero (who dethroned Jumbo Tsuruta), and Kawada's Vegeta. Vegeta's not evil (anymore), but he's the more grumpy angry one and really wants to be the top guy. Same with most Jushin Liger, I treat his matches like he's facing a different kind of enemy every match (or "episode"), and, in a way, the "villain" is someone like the Great Sasuke tearing at his mask. 

not sure how much of that made sense.


----------



## djmathers1207

Roode/Angle was great but the finish made you scratch your head


----------



## wildpegasus

Yeah1993 said:


> I think wrestling in Japan is treated more like a sport than it is everywhere else. You can cheer for who you like, and if a guy wants to be a heel like Stan Hansen or Dan Kroffat, that's their choice. There are heels in a lot of situations, like Masa Chono in the mid/late 90s (I think, anyway- pretty sure that's right), but it's more about competition than it is about good vs. bad in America.
> 
> I much, much, much prefer a face vs. heel dynamic, but I like to look at Japanese wrestling like an anime. Misawa vs. Kawada is Goku vs. Vegeta to me. Misawa's Goku, the top tier hero (who dethroned Jumbo Tsuruta), and Kawada's Vegeta. Vegeta's not evil (anymore), but he's the more grumpy angry one and really wants to be the top guy. Same with most Jushin Liger, I treat his matches like he's facing a different kind of enemy every match (or "episode"), and, in a way, the "villain" is someone like the Great Sasuke tearing at his mask.
> 
> not sure how much of that made sense.


We can always use Dragonball and wrestling comparisons. Some of my fav all time fights are from Dragonball and Dragonball Z like the Goku vs Vegeta fight. Dragonball creators could really be terrific wrestling bookers.


----------



## FITZ

Just got back from Bound for Glory and I need to talk about a match that is top 5 in my MOTY list. I'm talking about Sting and Hogan. I want to mention how they worked a crowd for 20 minutes doing nothing more than throwing punches. I need to mention that the match had be feeling like an 8 year old kid again watching wrestling, how Hogan turning face is one of my favorite moments ever at a wrestling show. I liked Undertaker/Triple H more while being at an arena live but Hogan/Sting and the after match is my second favorite live match that I've ever seen. Don't give a shit about the star rating it gets it was the most fun that I'll have watching wrestling for a very long time.


----------



## jawbreaker

why was Hogan the TNA champ and did he really let Sting beat him for the title*?

(I have no idea if the "Sting wins the belt at BFG every year" joke is still applicable, I haven't followed TNA since 2008, but I'm making it anyway)


----------



## bigbuxxx

TaylorFitz said:


> how Hogan turning face is one of my favorite moments ever at a wrestling show


i seem to remember this happening about 8.5 years ago in Toronto at another promotions main ppv in what should have been his last match...


----------



## KingCrash

Glad someone enjoyed Sting vs. Hogan, I'm sure if I was in the crowd I probably would have gotten caught up in it too. Watching it on my computer I didn't have any reaction at all: wasn't angry, wasn't excited, wasn't even sad at two old guys bleeding for nothing. Rest of the show wasn't much of anything either except for Aries being great and Daniels/AJ and Roode/Angle being massively disappointing even by lowered standards.


----------



## Neutronic

TaylorFitz said:


> Just got back from Bound for Glory and I need to talk about a match that is top 5 in my MOTY list. I'm talking about Sting and Hogan. I want to mention how they worked a crowd for 20 minutes doing nothing more than throwing punches. I need to mention that the match had be feeling like an 8 year old kid again watching wrestling, how Hogan turning face is one of my favorite moments ever at a wrestling show. I liked Undertaker/Triple H more while being at an arena live but Hogan/Sting and the after match is my second favorite live match that I've ever seen. Don't give a shit about the star rating it gets it was the most fun that I'll have watching wrestling for a very long time.


Man I hope thats sarcasm


----------



## TelkEvolon

TaylorFitz said:


> Just got back from Bound for Glory and I need to talk about a match that is top 5 in my MOTY list. I'm talking about Sting and Hogan. I want to mention how they worked a crowd for 20 minutes doing nothing more than throwing punches. I need to mention that the match had be feeling like an 8 year old kid again watching wrestling, how Hogan turning face is one of my favorite moments ever at a wrestling show. I liked Undertaker/Triple H more while being at an arena live but Hogan/Sting and the after match is my second favorite live match that I've ever seen. Don't give a shit about the star rating it gets it was the most fun that I'll have watching wrestling for a very long time.


A sick joke.


----------



## Rickey

TaylorFitz said:


> Just got back from Bound for Glory and I need to talk about a match that is top 5 in my MOTY list. I'm talking about Sting and Hogan. I want to mention how they worked a crowd for 20 minutes doing nothing more than throwing punches. I need to mention that the match had be feeling like an 8 year old kid again watching wrestling, how Hogan turning face is one of my favorite moments ever at a wrestling show. I liked Undertaker/Triple H more while being at an arena live but Hogan/Sting and the after match is my second favorite live match that I've ever seen. *Don't give a shit about the star rating it gets it was the most fun that I'll have watching wrestling for a very long time.*


Glad you appreciated it, I loved the ending part of too. 

*"Help me, Hogan. Help me!" *

**Hogan looks at Sting, looks at the audience, rips shirt, hulks up!* *

**CROWD ERUPTS!!!**

Great moment right there, and it made complete sense if you followed the storyline over the last few months. Loved that part of your post at the end about it being the most fun, and forget star ratings. That's how you truly well for me anyway, that's how I truly enjoy wrestling. Forget star ratings, was it fun? Did I enjoy it? Hogan/Sting know how to work a crowd, so happy this ppv was on the road.

edit: I know this might seem dumb, especially in a MOTYC thread but pro wrestling is more than just...wrestling. Hogan/Sting wasn't a technique masterpiece but the build mixed in with the moment at the end is what truly makes wrestling enjoyable for me. Moments like that are great. Moments like that make you go, "Man I love pro wrestling!" At least for me it does, >_> match wasn't nearly as bad as people thought it would compared to things like: Vince/Bret, Cole/Lawler, Cole/Swagger vs. Lawler/JR etc but people instantly thought it'd be the worst match of the year and I honestly didn't wanna see it but it actually added to the ppv and I appreciate it.


----------



## TelkEvolon

I love "moments" in wrestling, probably even more than I love a great match.

But I can't see the appeal of this, at all. I'm shocked people even liked BFG. It has got to be one of the worst shows I can remember seeing, for what it was and the matches it had, pretty much every single thing fell short of what it should of been.

Anderson & Ray was way better then I thought and my MOTN, Aries & Kendrick was a fine opening match.

AJ & Daniels had their worst match they have had together, a WEAK ending didn't help. Sting and Hogan was what I expected, which wasn't good. The Knockouts match was a mess. The Triple Threat match was okay, but another WEAK finish wiped all of the positive away. Morgan couldn't even just fall over that way? Roode and Angle had a good match, Roode overused the Crossface to the point where it felt like it was his only move, the dusty finish for that match left a bad taste in my mouth, both men being in the ropes and no restart. Killing the huge build TNA have been giving Roode. Van Dam was sloppy, more than normal and that match ended all of a sudden.

It felt like a Impact Super Show. Filled with lame finishes and weak angles. "Tune in next week, because our biggest show on the year just felt like filler inbetween our weekly Impacts." Now no matter when they give Rood the title, it won't mean half of what it would of meant at this show.

I can't see how people could of enjoyed this mess. If you did, great job, I wish I could of watched it with you telling me why these things were great. Because what me and my pals seen left us shaking our heads and speechless at the crap we just witnessed.


----------



## Bubz

Just saw Hogan/Sting and the match was really bad, literally just punches for 20 minutes. But I would be lying if I said I didn't mark the fuck out for the post match stuff. Whenever you get a pop like that it always adds to it though as it's something rarely seen in wrestling these days.


----------



## Chismo

What a pile of shit Hogan's turn was. I mean, those PUNCHEZ~, it was a super-duper fake and ridiculous segment. I mean, Hogan takes out Immorlol by himself? GTFO, in normal companies a face-turning veteran would have some younger babyface by his side to help him. Imagine if Storm, Morgan, Styles or even Gunner were there to help Hogan and Sting, it would do wonders to their careers. But NOOOO, Egomania is runnin' wild, brother! Hogan totally killed that PPV. Sure, the crowd ate it up, but now what?


----------



## TheAce

to much TNAtalk in the MOTYC thread....


----------



## Bubz

Lol, it doesn't happen often.


----------



## KingCrash

And based on the show last night it won't happen too many more times either.


----------



## WOOLCOCK

Taken from another forum which found this quote from another forum:



> Haha I was at the same show as Flik. We also bought $13 tickets from the lady out front!
> 
> Finlay/Thatcher was fucking AWEsome. Most of the match was on the mat and Finlay started working more heel as the match went on. I was filming it while sitting on the stage, but they came over and told me to stop halfway through. As he was asking me to stop filming I asked if they were taping it and if so could I get a copy. He told me they were taping but "their DVD production wasn't up right now" which is Bay Area wrestling code for "This will never be released, just like every other cool match that's happened in the Bay the last decade".
> 
> Luckily, my buddy Jason was stationed off to the side and had his camera set up on a speaker, filming it. Since he wasn't holding a camera they didn't notice he was taping. Some fat employee stopped a black guy from filming RIGHT in front of my friend, but somehow didn't notice my friend taping. BUUUUUT the match ended up going so much longer than we anticipated (good problem for us to have) that his memory card got full before the match was over. Once I saw him scrambling I turned my camera back on and got the last two minutes.
> 
> Sooooo, we should have 97% of the match to upload, but just from three different vantage points haha. I started filming from the stage and it looked real good, Jason was filming almost all of it from the side, then we missed a minute towards the end while I scrambled to get my camera back out, then I filmed the last 2 minutes from my seat.
> 
> It won't be perfect, but hey, at least people will get to see ALMOST the whole thing, and it is WELL worth seeing. I liked it more than the Kevin Steen match I saw live at PWG.


:mark: Looks like we have the chance of another MOTYC when this shows up online.

FINLAY, STILL BETTER IN HIS 50'S THAN 99% OF WORKERS TODAY.


----------



## FITZ

Neutronic said:


> Man I hope thats sarcasm





TelkEvolon said:


> A sick joke.


100% serious. Enjoyed it more than any indy match that I've ever seen. 



TelkEvolon said:


> I love "moments" in wrestling, probably even more than I love a great match.
> 
> But I can't see the appeal of this, at all. I'm shocked people even liked BFG. It has got to be one of the worst shows I can remember seeing, for what it was and the matches it had, pretty much every single thing fell short of what it should of been.
> 
> Anderson & Ray was way better then I thought and my MOTN, Aries & Kendrick was a fine opening match.
> 
> AJ & Daniels had their worst match they have had together, a WEAK ending didn't help. Sting and Hogan was what I expected, which wasn't good. The Knockouts match was a mess. The Triple Threat match was okay, but another WEAK finish wiped all of the positive away. Morgan couldn't even just fall over that way? Roode and Angle had a good match, Roode overused the Crossface to the point where it felt like it was his only move, the dusty finish for that match left a bad taste in my mouth, both men being in the ropes and no restart. Killing the huge build TNA have been giving Roode. Van Dam was sloppy, more than normal and that match ended all of a sudden.
> 
> It felt like a Impact Super Show. Filled with lame finishes and weak angles. "Tune in next week, because our biggest show on the year just felt like filler inbetween our weekly Impacts." Now no matter when they give Rood the title, it won't mean half of what it would of meant at this show.
> 
> I can't see how people could of enjoyed this mess. If you did, great job, I wish I could of watched it with you telling me why these things were great. Because what me and my pals seen left us shaking our heads and speechless at the crap we just witnessed.


I was there live, probably wouldn't have watched the show if I didn't have tickets and probably won't start watching Impact now, but I had a great time. Cheering on all the indy guys that are in TNA now and just having fun at a show like you're supposed to was an amazing experience. Aside from the Lynn/RVD match I was cheering with the majority of the crowd the whole time which was fun for a change at a big venue. And the show had my second biggest mark out moment of my life when Hogan turned (Undertaker kicking out of the Tombstone at Wrestlemania was a bigger moment and Edwards winning the ROH title is a very close third). I nearly lost my voice and I couldn't get to sleep when I got home despite my midterm test the next morning because I was still pumped up from the show. To anyone that knows I like wrestling it's all I've been talking about for the last 12 hours since the match happened. It was ne of the best wrestling experiences I've ever had.


----------



## Rickey

Kinda wish we had a best moment of the year/worst moment of the year thread. I realize it's hard to make a case for liking Sting/Hogan in 2011 but yeah it would actually fit more in there. As I didn't feel the entire match was a Match-OTYC but I don't know man, I guess it's hard to explain I know it's one of the only things I've liked that much this year besides The Rock returning.


----------



## seancarleton77

The Likes of Hogan and Sting do not compare to the awesome force that is Finlay!


----------



## Bubz

So I watched that NVC vs Rockness match and I have to say it didn't click with me at all. It was good, but towards the end it was as if they didn't have a clue what to do and it got sloppy at points. The workover was great on Goodtime, but when he finaly got the tag it was weak as hell, the spot that led up to it wasn't very good and the crowd hardly reacted at all and it went downhill from there. Still it had some really good spots and sequences in there. ****1/2*

I don't really dig the Rockness Mosters as a team to be honest, they seem really sloppy from what I have seen so far (about 3 matches).


----------



## Violent By Design

wildpegasus said:


> We can always use Dragonball and wrestling comparisons. Some of my fav all time fights are from Dragonball and Dragonball Z like the Goku vs Vegeta fight. Dragonball creators could really be terrific wrestling bookers.


lol Akira Toriyama would be a terrible booker. He made nearly all of his characters in Dragonball look like crap.


----------



## antoniomare007

he would have been great in the territorial days though :side:


----------



## Caponex75

Great....now I keep envisioning the Vegeta & Nappa vs. Z-Warriors as a tag match. A fucking awesome tag match that is.


----------



## Goku

Thoughts on the Goku vs. Frieza 30 Episode Ironman Match?


----------



## Yeah1993

Goku goes Super Saiyan and Krillin dies so it's ****1/2 at worst.


----------



## xzeppelinfootx

Krillin being impaled by Freiza's Horn bumps it up a quarter star.


----------



## Goku

That was pre-match.


----------



## Fighter Daron

Goku & Piccolo & Gohan & Gotrunks Vs Super Boo -Handicap Match was an absolutely classic *****, it served its propose and Boo gained a lot of heat.


----------



## Goku

This thread's been highjacked.


----------



## Emperor Palpatine

I watched TNA Bound for Glory last night. Not a single match OR moment would make me consider any part of that show as "MOTYC". I mark out more for Chavo Guerrero than I did for Hogan/Sting. And I want to slit my wrists when I see Chavo Guerrero. MOTN was the opener imo, and that was nothing more than a fun opening spring to get the crowd hot for the rest of the show.

Watched Finlay/Silva and thought it was pretty damn bad. Boring too. Needed more Finlay kicking the shit out of the young lion rather than Finlay selling an injury.


----------



## Goku

We're not interested in that anymore in case you haven't noticed.


----------



## Emperor Palpatine

Hohenheim of Light said:


> We're not interested in that anymore in case you haven't noticed.


Oh, sorry.

Android 17 Vs Piccolo - *****

That better?


----------



## smitlick

Good to see your posting in the section again KingCal... Reminds me i need to put some money together to get some best ofs..


----------



## Fighter Daron

KingCal said:


> Oh, sorry.
> 
> Android 17 Vs Piccolo - *****
> 
> That better?


WHAT?, that match was fucking bullshit.


----------



## Bubz

loldragonball.


----------



## Goku

lolyourface


----------



## Bubz

lol


----------



## seancarleton77

Dragon Ball: Because pussy is overrated. We desperately need some great wrestling, this thread was already turning away women and people who get laid to begin with, with Dragon Ball there is no hope!


----------



## Bubz

Thank you Sean, this is why I love you (no ****).

Where is BOLA!


----------



## jawbreaker

seancarleton77 said:


> Dragon Ball: Because pussy is overrated. We desperately need some great wrestling, this thread was already turning away women and people who get laid to begin with, with Dragon Ball there is no hope!


to be fair I think I've seen one woman ever on this site and keeping CM Skittle away from this thread is a good thing.


----------



## Bubz

Lol, theres quite a few ladies on the forum, but seeing as you don't venture outside this section I don't think you will have come across them. The non wrestling sections of the forum are good most of the time especially entertainment, but the wwe and tna sections are awful beyond belief.


----------



## jawbreaker

like I've said before, talking to WWE/TNA fans about things is not high on my priority list. That sounds elitist, and it probably is, but fuck it. liking WWE or TNA and not trying to find anything better probably means they have shit taste in everything.


----------



## Emperor DC

The reason I srtick mainly in here is you get good debates. I almost wish some of the WWE guys like Evolution would come in here, seeming as though we discuss a lot of WWE/TNA stuff in here? 

I only go up north for the lulz.

Tim Donst laughs at those lesser men.


----------



## Bubz

:lmao @ Tim Donst singing to a cow.


----------



## Fighter Daron

What a video xDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD


----------



## Emperor DC

It's one of many reasons why CHIKARA is amazing and has become my favorite promotion, apart from New Japan, over the past six months.


----------



## seancarleton77

Tim Donst is a very special boy, extra emphasis on the 'special' part.


----------



## Bruce L

Yeah1993 said:


> I think wrestling in Japan is treated more like a sport than it is everywhere else. You can cheer for who you like, and if a guy wants to be a heel like Stan Hansen or Dan Kroffat, that's their choice. There are heels in a lot of situations, like Masa Chono in the mid/late 90s (I think, anyway- pretty sure that's right), but it's more about competition than it is about good vs. bad in America.
> 
> I much, much, much prefer a face vs. heel dynamic, but I like to look at Japanese wrestling like an anime. Misawa vs. Kawada is Goku vs. Vegeta to me. Misawa's Goku, the top tier hero (who dethroned Jumbo Tsuruta), and Kawada's Vegeta. Vegeta's not evil (anymore), but he's the more grumpy angry one and really wants to be the top guy. Same with most Jushin Liger, I treat his matches like he's facing a different kind of enemy every match (or "episode"), and, in a way, the "villain" is someone like the Great Sasuke tearing at his mask.


This is an interesting way to look at it... and the exact opposite of how it's always seemed to me. I've always seen Japanese wrestling (or at least the best of it) as wrestling done properly, while American stuff (even the best of it) has always seemed cartoonish by comparison.

Good puro (and good American indie wrestling) makes sense to me: the story rarely gets more over-the-top than "Two guys/girls/teams are gonna fight. They both want to win because of the financial rewards, honors, and/or bragging rights that are on the line. Both will do a variety of things to ensure that they win." Even really good heated feuds are rooted in somewhat logical causes like company pride or desire to be the best, and the point of pretty much every angle or promo or "moment" is to build to a match. 

I don't always get that sense of "This makes sense; the people booking this are not stupid, nor do they think _the audience_ is stupid" from WWE, and hardly ever from TNA.


----------



## seabs

*Akira Tozawa vs BxB Hulk vs Cyber Kong vs SHINGO vs YAMATO vs KAGETORA - Mask vs Hair Survival Cage Escape Match - Dragon Gate 16.10.2011*
_Seriously considering this for my MOTY right now. Isn't the greatest match this year in terms of moves and such but holy cow the drama is off the charts and it helps so much if you watch it unspoiled not knowing the outcome. Match goes 40 minutes and you honestly don't feel it going by, kinda like watching an episode of a HBO drama where you can just so wrapped up in it and not realise how long it's actually lasting. Gonna spoiler tag the next bit where I mention what happens in the match because I strongly advise people if they're going to watch it to do so unspoiled because it will make the match so much better.


Spoiler: ~!



First 10 minutes are kinda just there and you get a lot of meaningless brawling in the corners with 6 guys in a ring and nowhere to go but after that 10 minute spell it's incredible. The spot where YAMATO is about to grab the flag and save his hair but then BW let him climb so they can have SHINGO 3 on 1 and YAMATO has to decide whether to leave SHINGO to the wolves and save his own hair or to go back down and save his buddy is fucking amazing and it's made by a billion times better by the finish too. There was some talk in here after BFG about the best moments of the year and that was way up there for me. SHINGO deciding to save his own hair when given the same opportunity that YAMATO was super as well and given how good DG have been at following up on stuff that happens during matches this year I'm sure they're going somehwere now with SHINGO/YAMATO and I really wanna know where. TENNIS BALLS!!! I fucking love DG's goofyness at times. The antics by both groups outside of the cage trying to stop the opposition from climbing the cage was awesome and I was really pleased that they just went full out with BW climbing the cage and stuff because it makes sense for them to try and interfere as much as they can without getting over the cage. Plus it made the match even better from an entertainment aspect. The end of the match once it got down to Kong and YAMATO was nuts though. Off the charts drama and it's largely true that only WWE can create those really special type of moments and atmosphere's in modern day wrestling but this was about as close to a big WWE level atmosphere as any other promotion is likely to get to. Kong having trouble climbing all the way up the cage due to his size was an awesome added touch. The post match stuff really tipped the match right up to legit MOTYC status though. Holy cow did YAMATO sell the result of the match to absolute perfection and I mean 100% realistic perfection. Amazing angle coming from the end of the match and the atmosphere with the shocked dead silence was oh so fitting too. The reminiscence of Lawler/Idol Cage match where Lawler loses his hair was soooo sweet too. Tozawa, Hulk and Kong just being total douches in amongst all the sadness worked a treat, especially them forcing SHINGO and KAGETORA to start shaving his head too. Really can't get over enough in words how great YAMATO was throughout all of this but especially selling the post match head shaving.


_
*****1/2*


----------



## Yeah1993

Bruce L said:


> They both want to win because of the financial rewards, honors, and/or bragging rights that are on the line. Both will do a variety of things to ensure that they win." Even really good heated feuds are rooted in somewhat logical causes like company pride or desire to be the best, and the point of pretty much every angle or promo or "moment" is to build to a match.


that for the most part is pretty much my mind-set when I watch most shoot style. If there's any form of graps that I think is considered more sport and less soapy, it's that.


----------



## bigbuxxx

Seabs, I gave that ** in the DG thread. I couldn't get into it and thought it was disjointed, bad, and didn't have drama. Does Cyber Kong have any decent matches? He was very impressive in it.


----------



## seancarleton77

Bubz said:


> Thank you Sean, this is why I love you (no ****).
> 
> Where is BOLA!


Aw. I love you too dawg! (slightly ****).

BOLA now!!


----------



## seabs

bigbuxxx said:


> Seabs, I gave that ** in the DG thread. I couldn't get into it and thought it was disjointed, bad, and didn't have drama. Does Cyber Kong have any decent matches? He was very impressive in it.


*That was probably his best performance I've seen from him. He's best suited to trio matches. Not really sure of any Kong matches to recommend.*


----------



## Generation-Now

Seabs said:


> *That was probably his best performance I've seen from him. He's best suited to trio matches. Not really sure of any Kong matches to recommend.*


His recent title match against Mochizuki was really good for a Kong match.

Not a MOTYC, but good nonetheless.


----------



## wildpegasus

I really, really got caught up in KENTA vs Sugiura from 10/10/11. What a fight. KENTA's charisma and body language was terrific in this. You could feel how much he wanted to win and when he was down and out you couldn't help but cheer for him.


----------



## xzeppelinfootx

My Favorite matches of Cyber Kongs might have to be some of his Summer Adventure Tag League II matches teaming with Yamato from a few years ago. As well as when they beat speed muscle for the tag belts, and then defended them against like Liger and Taka or some shit. The Liger one i haven't seen but I think its like Final Gate 2009 or 2008. The Speed Muscle one is definitely worth checking out. And if your going look for the SATL II matchesm, go with the semi final against Shingo/DK.


----------



## WillTheBloody

Kong's match with Hulk earlier this year is fantastic, too. Just when you think it's going to be another paint-by-numbers Hulk match, they flip a switch and deliver some great stuff. For those who haven't seen it, here's the ever-so brief back story: By this time, Hulk has pinned every member of KAMIKAZE this year in dramatic fashion except Kong. KAMIKAZE looks to be fading away, so Kong needs a win to re-solidify the faction. Infinity 207. Watch it!


----------



## wildpegasus

I'd like to add that the crowd was really behind KENTA is this match and during his speech afterwards. They were fans of Suguira too of course but it wouldn't matter who KENTA was up against here. KENTA would be cheered against anyone. The crowd was just waiting and wating for KENTA to break out just like I was watching this. One of the best feel great matches I've seen in a long time.


----------



## Bubz

*KENTA vs Sugiura 10/10/11.* Really good, but dragged on too long, they could have done with about 5 minutes cut off, and the first GTS wasn't needed at all, the first one should have been the second one. I would have also liked Sugiura to have a longer control segment to really show that KENTA was the underdog, it was too back and forth for my liking until the last quarter. Apart from that though it was a really good match with a good story told throughout but mostly in the last quarter of the match where Sugi was his usual badass self and just destroyed KENTA with forearms and knees etc, there was a point when I thought there was no way he was losing even though I knew the result lol. KENTA is awesome and I'm glad he is now in the heavy division, there really wasn't anything else for him to do in Jr's or tag. ******


----------



## Chismo

Nice review. Have you seen Go/Taniguchi?


----------



## Cactus

Is it any good? I was debating about watching it yesterday.


----------



## Chismo

Nah, I haven't seen it, I was just asking Bubz if he recommends it...


----------



## Caponex75

Ehh I gave KENTA/Sugiura ****1/2-****3/4. Great build to their finishes and the selling was off the chain. I'd rather this not being a underdog match because the KENTA/Sugiura matches have never been like that and that is not what they have been building to like Sugiura vs. Shiozaki. One of the great things about the strike exchanges in the match was that they all were intended to get themselves out of a hole and it would ether dig them deeper or actually get them out the hole. They actually felt like a battle of desperation. They didn't feel like cool exchange or man that was awesome but like a "I seriously can't lose this" battle of attrition. Only issue I have is that KENTA's comeback wasn't as awesome as it should of been but everything else worked. KENTA falling down after Sugiura smashed his face with elbows, the way both guys sold where they actually looked done & then comeback out of nowhere, and the feeling that this was just what it needed to be. Important. Not awesome but incredibly essential to who was going to walk out that night the victor. KENTA finally overcame Sugiura. Finally. The guy that ended his tag title reign, the guy that ended his GHC Jr reign, the guy that denied him of a victory every chance they fought, and the guy that became the Man of NOAH for two years, KENTA finally beat his Achilles heel. Nothing but up. I'll write a full review of as to why this match rocked.


----------



## Chismo

Well, that sounds fucking awesome.


----------



## WillTheBloody

Seabs said:


> *Akira Tozawa vs BxB Hulk vs Cyber Kong vs SHINGO vs YAMATO vs KAGETORA - Mask vs Hair Survival Cage Escape Match - Dragon Gate 16.10.2011*
> _Seriously considering this for my MOTY right now. Isn't the greatest match this year in terms of moves and such but holy cow the drama is off the charts and it helps so much if you watch it unspoiled not knowing the outcome. Match goes 40 minutes and you honestly don't feel it going by, kinda like watching an episode of a HBO drama where you can just so wrapped up in it and not realise how long it's actually lasting. Gonna spoiler tag the next bit where I mention what happens in the match because I strongly advise people if they're going to watch it to do so unspoiled because it will make the match so much better.
> 
> 
> Spoiler: ~!
> 
> 
> 
> First 10 minutes are kinda just there and you get a lot of meaningless brawling in the corners with 6 guys in a ring and nowhere to go but after that 10 minute spell it's incredible. The spot where YAMATO is about to grab the flag and save his hair but then BW let him climb so they can have SHINGO 3 on 1 and YAMATO has to decide whether to leave SHINGO to the wolves and save his own hair or to go back down and save his buddy is fucking amazing and it's made by a billion times better by the finish too. There was some talk in here after BFG about the best moments of the year and that was way up there for me. SHINGO deciding to save his own hair when given the same opportunity that YAMATO was super as well and given how good DG have been at following up on stuff that happens during matches this year I'm sure they're going somehwere now with SHINGO/YAMATO and I really wanna know where. TENNIS BALLS!!! I fucking love DG's goofyness at times. The antics by both groups outside of the cage trying to stop the opposition from climbing the cage was awesome and I was really pleased that they just went full out with BW climbing the cage and stuff because it makes sense for them to try and interfere as much as they can without getting over the cage. Plus it made the match even better from an entertainment aspect. The end of the match once it got down to Kong and YAMATO was nuts though. Off the charts drama and it's largely true that only WWE can create those really special type of moments and atmosphere's in modern day wrestling but this was about as close to a big WWE level atmosphere as any other promotion is likely to get to. Kong having trouble climbing all the way up the cage due to his size was an awesome added touch. The post match stuff really tipped the match right up to legit MOTYC status though. Holy cow did YAMATO sell the result of the match to absolute perfection and I mean 100% realistic perfection. Amazing angle coming from the end of the match and the atmosphere with the shocked dead silence was oh so fitting too. The reminiscence of Lawler/Idol Cage match where Lawler loses his hair was soooo sweet too. Tozawa, Hulk and Kong just being total douches in amongst all the sadness worked a treat, especially them forcing SHINGO and KAGETORA to start shaving his head too. Really can't get over enough in words how great YAMATO was throughout all of this but especially selling the post match head shaving.
> 
> 
> _
> *****1/2*


Totally agree, Seabs. Definitely in my Top 3 matches this year.


----------



## seabs

WillTheBloody said:


> Totally agree, Seabs. Definitely in my Top 3 matches this year.


*:mark: What are the other 2?

I hate people giving such high ratings to NOAH matches that go over 20 minutes that I'm in 2 minds about watching. Means I'm more likely to put myself though it but I guess it's my own fault for still holding out hope with NOAH main events.*


----------



## Caponex75

It could be worse....you could be watching Chris Hero going 45 minutes :no:

Seriously though, I thought it was great.


----------



## WillTheBloody

Seabs said:


> *:mark: What are the other 2?*


The first is Takagi/Tozawa from _KOBE World_, which delivered the best in-ring story for a stand alone match I've seen in YEARS. Every big move had a call back and the finish payed off every ounce of their the previous work. It suffers just a touch for only going sixteen minutes, but it might not have been as special if they went longer. Not sure whether I liked this more or the Survival Cage, but it's damn close.

Punk/Cena from _Money in the Bank_ is still #1 for me. The atmosphere, the nearfalls, the absolutely devious tease of a bullshit finish...and that little kiss to Vince. Perfect execution of an angle and a close to perfect wrestling match in my eyes.


----------



## Chismo

Seabs said:


> *:mark: What are the other 2?
> 
> I hate people giving such high ratings to NOAH matches that go over 20 minutes that I'm in 2 minds about watching. Means I'm more likely to put myself though it but I guess it's my own fault for still holding out hope with NOAH main events.*


What's the problem with NOAH's 20+ min matches, especially if KENTA, Takayama or Akiyama are there? Their control sessions are beautiful (especially Takayama's), and I'm entertaind every single time when those guys are wrestling. I could watch Takayama beating the shit ouf of people all day long. However, I agree that occasional 8-15 min title match is very refreshing.


----------



## 777

JoeRulz said:


> What's the problem with NOAH's 20+ min matches, especially if KENTA, Takayama or Akiyama are there? Their control sessions are beautiful (especially Takayama's), and I'm entertaind every single time when those guys are wrestling. *I could watch Takayama beating the shit ouf of people all day long.* However, I agree that occasional 8-15 min title match is very refreshing.


I just felt that this sentence should be highlighted and repeated.


----------



## bigbuxxx

AbismoNegro777 said:


> I just felt that this sentence should be highlighted and repeated.


Same. Him and MiSu are easily my favorite two. I just wish I was around when Big Tak was in his prime. Can't find too much footage of that unfortunately.


----------



## seabs

JoeRulz said:


> What's the problem with NOAH's 20+ min matches, especially if KENTA, Takayama or Akiyama are there? Their control sessions are beautiful (especially Takayama's), and I'm entertaind every single time when those guys are wrestling. I could watch Takayama beating the shit ouf of people all day long. However, I agree that occasional 8-15 min title match is very refreshing.


*To each their own I guess. Lack of story most of the time, lack of genuine structure, awful crowds. Tak can still be entertaining but I really dont need to see him working matches that go over 15 minutes and are long and drawn out with the condition he's in at this point. That being said KENTA could still maybe keep me interested for 30 minutes if he's on his game.*


----------



## antoniomare007

At this point is very obvious that the enjoyment of NOAH mainevents depend on who much someone is entertained or engaged with the early and middle sections of the match. I'm more with Seabs in that most of the time I'm bored or don't care about the first 10-13 minutes of NOAH "epic" style matches. The fact that crowds are fucking dead for most of the time don't help one bit either. 

JoeR says he can watch Takayama beat the shit out of people all day long. I say that it pains me to watch a crippled Takayama that can barely move trying to go for a "we have to go long and do a lot of shit because this is a NOAH main event" match when nowadays he is better suited for shorter spurts of his kicking ass personality. 

Sugi vs KENTA is another example of this. I could begin watching from the ringpost-suplex in the outside sequence and consider it a MOTYC. But the fact is that the first minutes were just kinda there and nothing really important happened. It was a stiff and fun sprint that went 30 minutes instead of 18 or 20. We know NOAH wrestlers can have the best finishing sequences in puro but the problem is what they do before that. 4 snowflakes is an accurate rating, imo.


----------



## Emperor DC

At one point, NOAH had surpassed all others as my favorite Japanese promotion, but New Japan has come on strong once again and its coincided with NOAH's downfall.


----------



## seancarleton77

KENTA vs. Sugiura was about 12 minutes too long, without the drag it was mos def at least ****1/4, with the extra 12 minutes ***3/4 ****


----------



## seabs

*Chris Hero vs Willie Mack - PWG BOLA 2011*
_Awesome opener and they have a really good established star vs high prospect about to establish himself type match like Hero/Tozawa but obviously not quite as great. Match is kinda similar to the PAC/Steen opener from Eight too in the sense that it's a really fun opening type match with slowly turns into a really great match the longer it goes. Hero gets in a really good control segment which really helps Mack's comeback and eventual win actually mean something. Mack takes a shit ton of punishment and comes off as a fucking superstar for it. There's a spot they do where Hero hits him on the head and Mack just shrugs it off and Hero starts selling his hand and they do it again so Hero just resorts to a thumb to the eye because not even a black guy with a hard noggin can withstand that. Mack does an awesome Human Tornado call back spot with the pimp kicks in the corner and Hero's reaction when Mack gets to the point where he's about to distract the referee because he knows whats coming and he's pleading with the ref not to fall for it but of course he does. Mack tries to do it again in his match with Generico actually only Generico is even more familiar with it and reverses it into his own. Generico/Mack features one of the best comedy performances ever from Generico as well which includes the best white boy dancing you will ever see from a pale skinned Mexican. Um back to this match .... oh yeah Mack hits the nuttiest lariat that I've seen in yonks. Looked sick enough but he fucking connects with it as well and the thud is crazy. Mack maybe had a few kickouts too many and Hero maybe hit a few too many cringe worthy strikes that Mack got back up from but in the context of the match it was all meaningful. Mack's little twist on the roll up pin was super too. Mack's gonna be a fucking Indy superstar before too long. He's already having killer matches on a regular basis now in PWG and his European tour definitely seems to have made him a little smoother in the ring and he's only gonna get better. Plus he's got the whole big wrestling fan turned wrestler thing going which works a fucking treat in Reseda but will work anywhere. Worst thing that can happen for him is to be rushed into a ROH midcard program and he gets forced on people._

******

*Finlay vs Kevin Steen - PWG BOLA 2011*
_First portion of this match was totally awe inspiring. They started off slow and tentatively which was nice and really made the match feel significant which of course it was. Steen bitch slapping Finlay and Finlay replying by taking him down a drop toe hold was so godly. They have this awesome 5 or so minutes where it's so fascinating to watch Finlay in this environment facing an Indy guy like Steen and seeing Steen be outshined and having to tone his character down to deal with a guy like Finlay. Then they really get going for a while and it's a total blast. Finlay gets in his usual cunning shtick and the eye poke spot was beautiful, even more so when Steen started incorporating it into his next match. Those first elbow shots from Finlay to Steen's nose were brutal as well. Finlay teasing going to the top rope was another super little spot they did. After that Steen gets the advantage working over Finlay's leg work and they do the limb work segment really fucking well and it's refreshing to see such a well done limb work segment in a big Indy singles match with great and consistent offense on one body part met with tremendous selling. It was made even better when it followed right through to the finish and the finish even paid off the limb work. Doesn't quite have the epicness at times that the Callihan match did but nor should do it. That was basically the main event of that show and this is a first round match of a one night tournament but it's a much better structured match and Finlay has a lot more to work with in Steen. These two worked so well together as well._

*****1/4+*

*Claudio Castagnoli vs El Generico - PWG BOLA 2011*
_God damn this was a fucking blast. There's 2 halves to this match; pre botch and post botch. The reviews that I've seen of the match so far really do sell the first half of the match short because for as amazing as the second half is the first half is really great too, as in it goes from a great match to a fucking crazy one. These two naturally work really well together and Generico's an awesome guy to take Claudio's big power moves and sell his back really well. All of Claudio's early stuff targets the back and it's all great. Generico has a super nutty springboard spot off the top rope too which you'll know when you see it. Then the botch happens and I knew about a botch but not when it was so I was looking out for it and knew that it made the match turn itself up but even knowing that I fucking lost it when Claudio just fucking lost it himself after the botched move. Those 3 gutwrenches were absolutely nuts and from that point Claudio was a fucking freak of a machine out to kill this poor flippy guy. They do a crazy looking Ricola Bomb spot too where Claudio ends up looking like a guy with unlimited amounts of power that he never drains out of. The build to Claudio's flipout is incredible too. Post botch Excalibur and Knox are building up that Claudio's pissed off after losing the belt to Steen and he wrestles like he's completely focused on hurting Generico and winning this stupid tournament to get his belt back. Then the botch happens and all this frustration that you could see built up in him in the first part of the match all of a sudden comes bursting out in the form of gutwrench powerbombs. Claudio's flapjack uppercut counter to Generico's brainbuster was maybe the nuttiest thing I've ever seen as well. They have an insane sequence of attempted moves and counters on the tope rope too which eventually leads really nicely to the flash pin for Generico. Maybe throw in some selling and I'd be calling this my MOTY. The best part is that it's totally different to their KR2 match which was slow and technically great with amazing selling whereas here they just go all out and have an insanely fun match._

*****1/2*

*Young Bucks vs Kings Of Wrestling - PWG BOLA 2011*
_Holy fuckballs this was fun. They have a super promo together before the match to set it up where there's lots of funny Booker T shtick. Bucks are really good heel mic talkers in Reseda, not so much anywhere else though from what I've seen but they fucking rock the heel shtick in Reseda and they're the perfect heels I'd say. Annoying shitbags who you wanna see get punched in the face really hard and they've got the goofy heel shtick tied down to a knot too. 

Claudio comes back and he's clearly cheered up since the last time he was out. I'm glad he did though because he was super fun during all of this with his Shark Boy teasing and his spinaroonie which I lost my nut over. Opening portion of the match with Bucks being completely OTT goofy heels is maybe the most I've enjoyed a wrestling match all year. Exactly what tag team wrestling should be where the babyfaces start off looking super and dominant and the heels goof it up making the babyfaces look even more super and dominant until eventually they take advantage of a situation and start using their cheap shtick to finally gain control of the match which is exactly what happens here. The opening fun babyface ruling the world segment was one of the longer ones I've seen but I'm not complaining about it at all. Nick in particular is a truly amazing goofball and Claudio compliments him superbly here. Goofy heels tripping over the ropes as they try to charge back into the ring is something that will never get old so why did people stop doing it? All of the groin spots were super and as mad as it looked the incest spot was amazing and somehow kinda logically set up, or as logically as you can set up a spot where two brothers have their legs pulled apart sitting on each other and one ends up fucking his brother doggystyle across the ring. 80's tag matches always rocked and for some reason the formula got lost in mainstream wrestling which sucked but the opening portion was a beautiful callback to how great a properly laid out STF match can be, especially at the start. 

Match kinda died down a little during Bucks' control segment and once Hero got the tag it got a bit too movesy with Hero not really being dominant enough off the hot tag. Slightly better control segment and hot tag and this'd easily be my MOTY. Loving how the Bucks keep winning their title matches with rollups and their feet on the ropes when the babyfaces seem to be zoning into their finishers. Gets massive heat everytime and every part of the Bucks heel shtick in PWG is textbook perfection in terms of being enjoyable and garnering massive heat. If PWG can Finlay in for another date then I NEED Bucks vs Finlay/Steen. It makes sense booking wise as well so please to god make it happen._

*****1/4*

*El Generico vs Kevin Steen - PWG BOLA 2011*
_This was EXACTLY what their DBD match last year should have been. No stips but dripping with hate and character. Right from the get go you can see the hate and naturally the crowd are going crazy getting to see these two kill each other in Reseda. They manage to make the crowd brawling really good even in the tight space in Reseda and Generico's DDT spot where he runs off the wall was insane. 

It's during this stage where they set up the ground work for maybe the greatest sub story I've seen created within a match. There's this little kid in a Generico mask on his Dad's shoulders (well I'm assuming it was his Dad but you get the idea) and naturally Steen spots him and is disgusted with him for wearing a Generico mask and Steen does a fine fine job of creating enough focus on this kid for it to be meaningful later in the match. I'd say this was Steen's best heel performance ever as well. It felt much less forced than any of his heel stuff in ROH did and it wasn't OTT enough to take away from the drama of the match. Plus he did an incredible job of coming off as an evil bastard who absolutely detested anyone wearing a goofy mask. Generico as always is an amazing babyface and when you've got Steen how he was in this match with his characterisation right on game it's impossible for them to fail and with the story with the kid thrown in it was impossible for them not to have an amazing match. 

The Little Jimmy chant for the kid was amusing and it really made me think how perfectly suitable this would be for a WWE match and they kinda attempted it with the Cena/Truth match but it just came off as being goofy whereas here it was totally emotional and worked a charm. The spot where Steen has Generico in the sharpshooter and Generico's crawling towards the ropes in the direction of the kid was so symbolically brilliant. Then Generico has the nutty Package Piledriver spot on Steen which everyone goes mad and you can see the kid in the corner marking out for it and that was an amazing sight to see this little kid marking out for a spot like this because you see wrestling can be so simple to get sometimes when you don't overcomplicate it and even kids and grown drunk men can appreciate the same quality wrestling without any blood or swearing, just a simple story that everyone can get emotionally invested in. 

Naturally they do some big near falls but just the right amount that they don't go too far but enough to make the crowd go loopy and have them nutty enough for when the finish goes off. The match led in perfectly to a Generico win and him finally winning BOLA was a nice added touch. So by now they've had this amazing match but then the 5 minutes after the end of the match are pure golden. Generico's all happy and everything that he's finally won BOLA and he has this big trophy and he gets the kid in the ring to celebrate with him because good has overcome evil and then Steen in the greatest douchebag move of all time swings his foot at the trophy and snaps it and ruins Generico's big moment because he's a fucking scumbag. The best part was how subtle but how immensely effective it was and how Steen never had to go out of his way in this to try and get himself over as a douche, he just acted like a douche and didn't try to hard to play a character rather than be one. 

That kid may be the cutest thing that I have ever seen btw, especially when he crawls underneath the rope after the match with this big Generico mask on. After about 2/3rds of this match I was only really seeing it as a great match but then as the match went on it slowly kept developing more and more into something really epic right up to the very last second of the show where Generico does his victory speech and the more I think about it now typing this the more I just adore the match. Isn't the best match this year purely based on action (although it's a fucking great match in that aspect) but the character dynamic in the match and the incredible sub story might just make it my MOTY. Gonna have to rewatch a bunch of stuff at the end of the year but right now I can't think of a match I've enjoyed this much all year. Easily better than any of their ROH singles match for me and the hate felt much more geniune here than it did at Final Battle as they didn't need to rely on weapons and spots to get the hate over, it just came naturally and everything about the match felt much more natural with them. Best part of it all was that the whole match and the 5 minute post match stuff was started and finished all within 20 minutes. _

*****1/2+*


----------



## SuperDuperSonic

Dammit Seabs, now you make me wanna order some PWG around Xmas time when I'm trying to save for an apt and go to MIA!


----------



## dk4life

Still watching BOLA 2011...amazing so far, only watched 1st 3 matches of the 1st round...read what seebs said, cause I agree with that!!, Claudio/Generico such a fucking awesome match, I have to watch there match from earlier this year I think, I felt the finish wasn't that smooth thou, Finlay/Steen loved, Steen has been so awesome this year in PWG and the leg work was pretty damn good, and Mack/Hero was cool, starting to like Mack more and more every time I watch him!!, My fave match so far is Steen/Finlay..I just wanted to add my bit, loving this show thou!!


----------



## WOOLCOCK

Yeah I was all set about skipping Strong/Edwards and Edwards/Steen but the rest of those matches look incredible and Willie Mack is someone I'm growing to like. Also really excited to see I was wrong on the Steen criticism, they were actually talking about some of his stuff in the Edwards match that annoyed them as detracting from the match, so at least I have more room to be expecting a great match.

Generico and the kid stuff does sound amazing, when Steen shuts the fuck up and wrestles he's great and just needs to learn how to control himself sometimes and not end up becoming a parody.


----------



## seabs

*Yeah I agree on that about Steen. I think he got the mix really nice on that show though. First being more subdued and quieter because he's in there with fucking FINLAY to having more fun with Edwards and the eye pokes and then to focusing on the hate with Generico and cutting out the goofy stuff all together. I'm all for goofy comedy Steen in undercard matches but yeah if he's gonna be in more main event matches that really matter then he needs to be toned down before he hurts the match but in fairness he did in the Generico match and to a slightly lesser extent with Finlay.

Strong/Edwards is passable. It's fine but it's a bunch of moves with no meaning or consequence. The RockNES/Dynasty tag is a bit sloppy and a bit of a clusterfuck at times but it was fun all be it missable. I'd watch Steen/Edwards because despite the modern Indy downfalls it's entertaining enough at the start to kinda make up for lots of moves with little consequence. Definitely watch Generico/Mack though because that was super entertaining even though it wasn't a MOTYC.*


----------



## Bubz

@ JoeRulz, I haven't seen Go/Taniguchi, Taniguchi is someone I haven't really got into yet, I'll probably watch it in the next few days though because Go is awesome. I'll try and fit it in with my BOLA viewing lol.

@ Capone, I agree with what you said about KENTA/Sugiura, but I still felt there was a lack of structure in the first half or so of the match, KENTA coming back all the time kind of took me out of it a bit, but the last 10 minutes were amazing. Like you said, the strike battles were some of the best I've seen this year because it didn't feel forced or like it was trying to be 'cool' or whatever, it felt like they were trying to survive eachother. I agree with Sean though, it needed to be quite a bit shorter for me. Glad you liked it that much though, and I definitely see there being enough positives for some people to overlook the negatives about the match.

@ Seabs, damn your PWG reviews lol, they get me pumped every time because I know I usualy agree with pretty much everything you say about them.


----------



## seancarleton77

Go vs. Taniguchi was very solid, nearly great, and best of all under 25 minutes (Thank fuck!).


----------



## Caponex75

I really don't mean to be disrespectful and all but how high were you when you watched KOW/Bucks? Man that match was going good but it turned into just a bad match after. Claudio was great but Hero sucked and the Bucks were just meh. I wasn't satisfied at all with the match at all. Do think you overrated a Steen/Finlay a tad but everything else was pretty right. The Bucks/Hero & Claudio was awful. Bad finish to boot.


----------



## Bruce L

*Shuji Kondo vs. KAI — All Japan Jr. Heavyweight Title decision match, 6-19*

KAI really impressed me with his performance here. I'm usually somewhat annoyed by a lot of traditional selling of injuries, but KAI managed to find a pretty happy medium here between what most fans have been trained to think of as "good selling" and the kind of real-sports "playing through the pain" that makes more sense to me: He doesn't let his damaged knee keep him from hitting the big moves he wants, but always makes sure to show the toll it takes on him to do so. People who pay more attention to All Japan than I do tell me he's a bona fide junior ace in the making (if he's not there already); based on this, he deserves it. ****¼


----------



## bigbuxxx

Tanahashi vs Kojima @ WK V: ****1/2-****3/4. I have previously shit hard on this match and given it as low as ***1/2 but those times I didn't give it my full attention and I just sat there and watched this match this afternoon and good god this was an epic match. love this match.


----------



## Kid Kamikaze10

Watching BOLA11 right now. Currently at Finlay vs Steen.

Holy crap, Hero vs Mack was awesome. I want a gif of that lariat Willie hit. 


And I know people complain about it, but I really like Steen running his mouth during matches. I think it adds to the matches story wise, and adds character. 

The Rock used to do this too, and on the female end, I really like it when Nicole Matthews and Jessicka Havok do it as well.


----------



## Kid Kamikaze10

Ok, I totally agree with Seabs that Generico/Steen is a MOTYC, definitely.

But what Kevin Steen did post-match makes him a Douchebag of the Year front-runner. Right up there with Blood Warriors during that Mask vs Hair match.


----------



## Bubz

I'm aslo a fan od Steen's mouth running lol. I like how he can incorporate it in to any kind of match really, he can either fully heel it up or just be a cocky funny dick..


----------



## Chismo

Kevin Steen vs El Generico (BOLA) *****1/4*

Epic match, these guys are on the top of their game. The best character (Steen) and the best babyface (Generico) in pro-wrestling today. The match was all about hatred, bad blood but also about BOLA tournament, such a great storytelling. The stuff with that kid was epic, lol. MOTYC, that's for sure, but not better than ANX/Briscoes from HTCS.


----------



## antoniomare007

*Mark Henry vs Big Show - Vengeance*

Fucking AWESOME big man vs big man match. They played to their strengths and delivered big time. If you don't have fun watching this I just feel sorry for ya'.


----------



## bigbuxxx

was good despite the ending but not near a motyc


----------



## Cactus

Big Show vs Henry gets ****1/2* from me. Really good stuff. Best Mark Henry match I've seen.


----------



## seancarleton77

antoniomare007 said:


> *Mark Henry vs Big Show - Vengeance*
> 
> Fucking AWESOME big man vs big man match. They played to their strengths and delivered big time. If you don't have fun watching this I just feel sorry for ya'.


Mark Henry used to be lazy, unmotivated and just plain garbage in the ring. Now he's hungry (not like that!), motivated and the best big man in the world today!


----------



## FITZ

Yeah that match was pretty awesome. Making a sandwich took longer than I thought so I missed a lot of it I think but what I saw was pretty amazing.


----------



## Bubz

Henry is awesome right now. Henry/Orton from NOC was pretty epic.

Anything else of note from Vengeance?


----------



## seancarleton77

Bubz said:


> Henry is awesome right now. Henry/Orton from NOC was pretty epic.
> 
> Anything else of note from Vengeance?


Dolph Ziggler & Jack Swagger vs. Evan Bourne & Kofi Kingston = ***1/2-***3/4. Only because of the Zig Zag Man & Air Boom, Swag is pretty useless.


----------



## Bubz

Glad to see Ziggler delivered, he always does though so it's no surprise. The guy is awesome.


----------



## seancarleton77

NOTHING on Vengeance was bad, not even the Divas match!

Dolph Ziggler & Jack Swagger vs. Evan Bourne & Kofi Kingston = ***1/2-***3/4

Dolph Ziggler vs. Zack Ryder

Sheamus vs. Christian = ***3/4

R-Truth & The Miz vs. CM Punk & Triple H = ***1/4 - ***1/2

Orton vs. Rhodes = ***1/4

Beth Phoenix vs. Eve = **3/4

Mark Henry vs. Big Show = ***3/4 (The ending was CLASSIC)

Del Rio vs. Cena = ***3/4

By the way John Cena stole my Jhorts!


----------



## topper1

seancarleton77 said:


> (The ending was CLASSIC)




Maybe the 1st time they used the same exact ending with one of the same wrestlers.


----------



## bigbuxxx

topper1 said:


>


some people marked out a bit here. it was entertaining at least.


----------



## seabs

*Evan Bourne & Kofi Kingston vs Dolph Ziggler & Jack Swagger - Vengeance 2011*
_This was a whole heap of fun and a massive improvement on their first PPV match and it's no coincidence that was down to the match being more Bourne/Ziggler heavy rather than Swagger/Kofi heavy like the last one. Ziggler's totally nutty bump off the monkey flip was amazing. Really liked how they teased the hot tag finish with the SSP and then it transcended into an even longer 2nd FIP spell. Bourne's such a better FIP worker than Kofi it's not funny. Teased finish worked even better with you not knowing if they'd just do a short match or have an extended match also. Basic formula but worked perfectly._

******

*Alberto Del Rio vs John Cena - Last Man Standing - Vengeance 2011*
_Really enjoyed this. Had a really good chaotic feel to it which a LMS match should be all about. Liked how they started off working around the destruction but then they just started doing moves and taking bumps in turn and it was horrible. Got great once they left the ring though but holy cow the first 5 or whatever it was minutes were horrible. Del Rio's crazy bump from the ring to the barricade looked super fun. Almost as great as Ziggler's monkey flip bump earlier. Liked how Ricardo kept trying to interfere because he can but then got knocked straight back down every time because Cena's a champ and he's a chump. Ricardo ring post spot was really fun. Backstage fighting was fun and fresh. Some goofy stuff in there but some good stuff also and most important of all it all flowed really well. Could have done without the Miz/Truth run in but it was a good teased finish. Obviously Cena can't lose to just one guy though but at least Del Rio got to beat him on his own shot even if he still doesn't look like a legit champ and still isn't allowed to beat Cena legit. Really enjoyed this though._

****3/4*


----------



## antoniomare007

after watching BOLA (Claudio/Generico, Steen/Finlay and the Finals are MOTYC imo), it's amazing how the Reseda crowd and the wrestlers involved made something so corny like "Lil' Jimmy" work so damn well in the Final, just awesome stuff.


----------



## Noah Mark

One for all you Lucha lovers!
El Hijo de Pirata Morgan/Pirata Morgan vs ***** Navarro/Trauma I-IWRG 3/3/11 ****1/4...This was a great technical match. Both Maestros delivered and the opening matwork with El Hijo De Pirata Morgan & Trauma I was classic old style Lucha matwork.


----------



## Bubz

Watching the first half of *BOLA* tonight...here goes.

*Chris Hero vs Willie Mack*
Holy shit, this was awesome. I don't know what else to say apart from Hero's strikes have NEVER looked better than this, and Willie Mack gets better every time I see him. There were a few sloppy moments here and there towards the end, and I think it should have ended a little sooner, but that didn't really take away from the action in the ring, Mack gets dominated by Hero and some of the elbows and kicks Hero dishes out are INSANE! Holy Shit at that lariat from Mack! I was marking out big time during this and this is definitely Mack's best match to date.*****+*

*Steen vs Finlay*
Great match here with a great structure and simple story. I loved how serious and focussed Steen was for this compared to his usual self because he knew what to expect from Finlay. It starts with finlay being a complete boss (the spot where Steen slaps him and he retaliates with a drop toe hold was amazing) and winning in the strike department, so realising he can't win Steen goes after the leg and works over it for the majority of the match. Finaly makes some mistakes in his comeback by using the injured leg to try and dish out some offense and it ultimately costs him the match. The leg work played into the finish (yay ) which is always great and I'm glad they kept it simple. ******

*Claudio vs Generico*
This was what I was most looking forward to on the card since I loved their previous match this year so much. Holy fuck, my new match of the year right here!

Seriously an amazing, awesome match. It starts with Claudio being a bit of a dick to Generico because he is pissed he lost the belt the previous show, but then Generico starts getting the upper hand with all sorts of arm drags and cool flippy stuff. This just pisses Claudio off even more and the match gets really great when Claudio starts working over Generico's back with some nasty looking backbreakers and submissions. Generico try's to make a comeback when he jumps off the top rope and tries to hit a rana, but it gets botched. I'm sure most people have read about what happened next, but Claudio just loses it completely and hits three gutwrench powerbombs in quick succession out of nowhere, each one more brutal than the last. A seriously awesome moment made even better by Excalibur marking the fuck out on commentary (which is one of the reasons I love him ). Then the match becomes completely fucking amazing with THE BEST FINISHING STRETCH EVER!!!! Holy jesus, that's high praise I know, but the combination of the insane moves and counters, the insane crowd, me losing my rag and marking the hell out like I haven't since I was about 13, and the fact that everything made sense puts it up there for me. Everything Claudio did or tried to do focussed on the back the whole way through. I won't ruin some of the stuff these guys do in the last 5 minutes, but it's amazing. So yeah, I LOVE this match. *****3/4+*

Well, I'm too tired to watch the rest of the show and to be honest after watching that match, a Roddy vs Eddie match is the last thing I want to watch. When the first three matches on the show are that good, you know you're watching an awesome show and an awesome promotion.


----------



## antoniomare007

I felt that way with the NVC vs Ricochet/Generico match, marking out like a teenager is always welcome. The 2nd half of that Claudio/Generico match was indeed awesome though, a must watch.

And I can only imagine the bible that Segunda is gonna write once he sees Finlay vs Steen. That slap/drop toe hold spot is gonna blow his mind


----------



## WOOLCOCK

Can people stop teasing me with these BOLA matches please, my fucking schedule is packed and everyday I go without seeing Finlay/Steen I'm more tempted to forearm some bastard in the library, also being dragged to a movie tonight and got family visiting tomorrow so its likely I won't see it till Thursday


----------



## jawbreaker

seriously, I'm not done ASW yet (I don't think I've even finished Card Subject to Change!). Part of me just wants to stop going to class and stop having friends and stop having a life in general. I'd get so much more wrestling watched then.


----------



## Fighter Daron

jawbreaker said:


> seriously, I'm not done ASW yet (I don't think I've even finished Card Subject to Change!). Part of me just wants to stop going to class and stop having friends and stop having a life in general. I'd get so much more wrestling watched then.


I'm stuck there too xD


----------



## Bubz

Segunda Caida said:


> Can people stop teasing me with these BOLA matches please, my fucking schedule is packed and everyday I go without seeing Finlay/Steen I'm more tempted to forearm some bastard in the library, also being dragged to a movie tonight and got family visiting tomorrow so its likely I won't see it till Thursday


I hope that movie is Drive .

Watched the rest of BOLA...

*KOW vs Young Bucks*
Well, this was really great. Very rarely do I actually find comedy in wrestling matches funny, but here I laughed my ass off more than once. The Bucks are just great chicken shit heels, and some of their schtick is hilarious here. The Kings give one of my favorite performances of theirs, and they really do well in the early stages being funny with the Bucks and embarassing them. the match then gets really good when Claudio plays the face in peril due to under handed tactics. The hot tag was great and Hero unleashes hell! Hero was so awesome in this and his match against Mack. The end was great and the only way I could see the match ending. ******

Also the promo beforehand was really funny with Claudio teasing The Bucks about losing to shark boy.

*Steen vs Generico*
Amazing stuff. The best story I've seen told in a wrestling match for quite some time. Steen being an awesome heel and Generico being the best babyface in the world. Then you get this amazing story thrown in with the little kid in the Generico mask that made this really special. Steen was a complete prick to this kid, even flipping him off at one point which was the biggest dick move imaginable (until the post match stuff). Seeing the kid cheering on Generico and marking out when he made a comeback was amazing. Generico pulling himself towards the kid when he was in the sharpshooter was the cherry on the cake for me. You don't see something like this often, especially in the mainstream promotions, to me this match is an example of what indy wrestling can be and how amazing it can be. Props to both men for bringing the kid into the story of the match and revolving it around him. The match itself was awesome though with some great near falls, I knew who won but didn't know how, so some of Generico's near falls where so good. Just an amazing match, you would have to be dead inside not to be dragged in to the story of this, there is no way you won't be cheering along with the little fella.*****3/4*

Post match stuff was great. Generico getting the kid in the ring was adorable, but then Steen out-does himself and kicks Generico's trophy and breaks it while he is celebrating with the kid. What. A. Dick. One of the cutest things I've ever seen was this kid running away with fear when Steen kicked it. I love how Steen can be a fan favorite, but when it comes to Generico he turns into this absolute prick that is impossible to cheer for. Steen, you bastard.

What a show. I don't see anything topping this as a wretsling show in the near future, and definitely not this year. PWG, you are awesome.

Also just realised my top 5 matches this year are

El Generico vs Claudio Castagnoli (PWG BOLA) ****3/4
Kevin Steen vs El Generico (PWG BOLA) ****3/4
John Cena vs CM Punk (WWE Summerslam) ****3/4
John Cena vs CM Punk (WWE MITB) ****1/2
Claudio Castagnoli vs El Generico (PWG Kurt Russell Reunion II) ****1/2

2 Cena/Punk matches and 2 Claudio/Generico matches.


----------



## Chismo

You prefer Punk/Cena from SummerSlam, even without the final chapter?


----------



## Bubz

Yeah I absolutely loved the SS match, probably more than most people.


----------



## Corey

Bubz I see you're a big fan of Claudio vs. Generico, have you seen their match from ROH's Race To The Top Tournament Night 2?


----------



## Fighter Daron

Jack Evans 187 said:


> Bubz I see you're a big fan of Claudio vs. Generico, have you seen their match from ROH's Race To The Top Tournament Night 2?


Great match, better than Russellreunion match.


----------



## peachchaos

Bubz said:


> Yeah I absolutely loved the SS match, probably more than most people.


They both had much stronger performances than they did at MITB, so I wouldn't call it a stretch to say the rematch was better.


----------



## Bubz

Jack Evans 187 said:


> Bubz I see you're a big fan of Claudio vs. Generico, have you seen their match from ROH's Race To The Top Tournament Night 2?


Yeah it's a great match, but I wouldn't put it near the level of their matches this year, Claudio has evolved so much since then it's insane.


----------



## SuperDuperSonic

I'll take bald mean streak Claudio over fun long haired Claudio.


----------



## Bubz

Yeah, bald pissed off Claudio is amazing.


----------



## SuperDuperSonic

Imagine how much better his ****1/2 MOTYC with Morishima would have been with his current gimmick.


----------



## Fighter Daron

Big Show Vs Mark Henry - ****1/4

An absolutely fuck.


----------



## Bubz

SuperDuperSonic said:


> Imagine how much better his ****1/2 MOTYC with Morishima would have been with his current gimmick.


Jesus, it would have been completely awesome. Part of me is a bit gutted Claudio is going to bigger places because there are so many matches that I would like to see. He deserves to be in the biggest promotion in the world though and seen by millions of people.


----------



## Fighter Daron

Bubz said:


> Jesus, it would have been completely awesome. Part of me is a bit gutted Claudio is going to bigger places because there are so many matches that I would like to see. He deserves to be in the biggest promotion in the world though and seen by millions of people.


You could imagine him fighting against Punk, Cena, Ziggler, ADR or Mysterio, great matches so far.


----------



## Corey

I feel the same way with Claudio. Shame he never faced Eddie for the ROH Title, and we won't get to see him face Lethal or TJP. His first TV match needs to be against Danielson or Bourne.


----------



## Bubz

Claudio debuting against Bryan would be completely awesome to see.


----------



## antoniomare007

Claudio vs Ziggler should be the way to go imo.


----------



## Pat9010

Nope, Claudio's first match needs to be a squash match...he needs to be put over as a powerful heel because 80% of the audience won't care about those matches since they don't know who he is


----------



## Neutronic

Pat9010 said:


> Nope, Claudio's first match needs to be a squash match...he needs to be put over as a powerful heel because 80% of the audience won't care about those matches since they don't know who he is


Claudio is skilled enough to work as a babyface

I enjoyed his babyface run where he tried to topple Morishima


----------



## Thomazbr

No the dude who suggested a Squash is right, and Claudio is legitly one of the best "Squashers" this business has, shit, his Squash vs Grizzly was one of the best moments of ROH HDnet history.
Claudio vs Bourne should be the way to go, after all, Bourne has pretty much all the points to be able to show how fucking awesome Claudio is.
1 - He's Small, and we know how TREMENDOUS claudio is when he wrestlers against little people
2 - He has little to no credibility, so he can be manhandled by Claudio without having to worry about someone losing a Push.
3 - Cmon he's Matt Sydal


----------



## SuperDuperSonic

He needs to debut against Cena or Orton of course.

In all seriousness, imagine if once he's established, he collides with Mark Henry.


----------



## Fighter Daron

Thomazbr said:


> 2 - He has little to no credibility, so he can be manhandled by Claudio without having to worry about someone losing a Push.


What?, I can throw you about twenty wrestlers with less credibility on WWE.


----------



## Thomazbr

Fighter Daron said:


> What?, I can throw you about twenty wrestlers with less credibility on WWE.


Yes, i do know that. It's just that i forgot the name of any jobber, and i was talking about Sydal earlier so he name came first. Also i think Sydal is the skinnier of the Main WWE Roster, so i guess he would be the one who gets more elevation in the Swiss Death, so that's a plus.
Oh did CC Wrestled any match against Matt Sydal? I can't seem to remember


----------



## Corey

Thomazbr said:


> Yes, i do know that. It's just that i forgot the name of any jobber, and i was talking about Sydal earlier so he name came first. Also i think Sydal is the skinnier of the Main WWE Roster, so i guess he would be the one who gets more elevation in the Swiss Death, so that's a plus.
> Oh did CC Wrestled any match against Matt Sydal? I can't seem to remember


Yeah he's wrestled Sydal on at least one occasion I can recall.


----------



## TelkEvolon

They had a great match at Driven 2007.


----------



## Fighter Daron

At ROH Honor Reclaims Boston and at ROH Driven = 2 times.


----------



## Pat9010

Bourne would be perfect. He's the kind of guy who could just get killed, sell it like he was literally being killed, and get that kind of sympathy heat from the crowd. No other "jobbers" would really garner any sympathy from the crowd.


----------



## Corey

*ROH - Supercard of Honor VI*

*Chicago Street Fight*
The Briscoes vs. The All Night Express - ****1/4

_Well this was pretty awesome. It was a lot different than the type of Street Fight I'm used to seeing in ROH. They didn't fight all over the arena or use every weapon imaginable, and there weren't any insane spots like you might expect. Instead it was a confined brawl with a lot of unpredictable moments. Right off the bat there was a sudden table spot. This fuckin company has been so good with that this year. Rhett played a huge factor in their Atlanta match and it was a bit of a breakout performance but here I just felt like he was there to be a lackey for the big bumps and he seemed to rush things. My only other problem was the finish, which was way too cartoonish and played out to be taken seriously. But the rest of the match was brutal and highly entertaining._

*ROH World Championship*
Eddie Edwards(c) vs. Roderick Strong - ****

_Just about all of Eddie's title matches had a slow build and then got really good down the stretch, but this one was different. Instead Roddy shoved a knee in his face after the opening bell and proceeded to beat the piss out of him. You really got the feeling he just wasn't fuckin around and wanted to end it quick. The beginning part was great, middle part was the same offense from Eddie you always see, and then the last several minutes were fucking insanity. They had a stretch of counters and stealing each other's moves that was really cool to watch. Eddie countered Roddy elbowing him in the face into an overhead gutbuster that shocked the shit out of me. Down the stretch Roddy just unloaded on that nig. Gibson drivers on the apron and the floor, repeated kicks to the face, which then lead the finish. A reason I wouldn't rate this any higher is because of that finish. Too many times I've seen people tap to Davey or Eddie way too quickly and it just isn't satisfying to see such a quick tap. Instead I would've much rather had seen Eddie win with another rollup or have him lock in the achilles lock for more than 3 seconds. But besides that, really great match._


----------



## Mattyb2266

So with the latest smart mark sale I got the WXW 16 Carat Gold Tournament and Future Shock vs Leaders of the New School is probably my tag team match of the year. I normally don't do star ratings but I'd say that was about ****1/4. Maybe I'm overrating it a bit but I thought it was a fantastic match.


----------



## seabs

*Masato Tanaka vs Necro Butcher - ZERO-1 17.09.2011*
_Maybe it helped that I didn't really have any expectations for a Necro match in 2011 but I fucking loved this so much. Super fun brawl with lots of great spots and most noteably Necro bumping like a fucking loon to get the match over. He takes 2 of the sickest bumps I've seen in a long time when they go into the crowd. After a bit Tanaka starts bumping around like crazy too and both men bust their asses to make this as great as it could be. Necro ends up with a really sick cut on the top of his head after a huge DDT onto a stack of chairs and Tanaka looked like he got legit busted open from one of Necro's punches. Really fun hardcore match and I can't imagine anyone at the least not finding it enjoyable._

*****1/4*


----------



## WOOLCOCK

Necro has slowed down but he's still one of the more fun workers around for a good brawl which keeps to what brawls should be, seen he's had a few local indy matches pimped as incredibly entertaining. Finlay/Necro could be the stiffest match of the year if they ever locked up.

Will defo give that match a watch along with BOLA once this bloody laptop gets sorted.


----------



## peachchaos

Seabs said:


> *Masato Tanaka vs Necro Butcher - ZERO-1 17.09.2011*
> *****1/4*


Sounds great.


----------



## flag sabbath

It's a fun brawl, but hardly motyc material.


----------



## peachchaos

flag sabbath said:


> It's a fun brawl, but hardly motyc material.


I'd still like to see it. Anyone got a link?


----------



## seabs

peachchaos said:


> I'd still like to see it. Anyone got a link?


*http://www.fileserve.com/file/dZ9k8WP*


----------



## Alan4L

forgot to make a post in here after the DG-UK shows.

I wanna wait for the DVD before I say this 100% but I think Shingo vs. Susumu III overtakes the BOSJ final as my MOTY and by virtue of that, my all time fave wrestling match. Definitely my favourite live match ahead of Danielson/McGuinness at Unified.

PAC/Shingo was fantastic as well. In the ****3/4 range.


----------



## Corey

*Dragon Gate USA - Way of the Ronin 2011*

*Open The Twin Gate Championship vs. Open The United Gate Championship*
CIMA & Ricochet(c) vs. PAC & Masato Yoshino(c) - ****

_First off, let me clarify what that says. CIMA & Ricochet (The Spike Mohicans, representing Blood Warriors) are coming in as the Dragon Gate Open The Twin Gate Champions, which are the tag belts in Japan. PAC & Yoshino (representing Junction Three) are coming in as the Open The United Gate Champions, which are the tag belts here in the U.S. It's not a unification match, just a winner takes all deal. It was a pretty big match to say the least. Kinda shitty it had to happen in a small venue though. Honestly, if you've seen any tag from Dragon Gate or DGUSA, you probably aren't going to see anything all that different here, but it's still a really fun match with a shit ton of high flying and fast paced action. If you go into this not knowing who wins, unlike myself, I think you'll enjoy it more. Because there's an assload of insane near falls that the crowd goes nuts for. Anyone interested in watching, I just posted it in the media section:_

http://www.wrestlingforum.com/indy-...chet-dgusa-way-ronin-2011-a.html#post10521027


----------



## TelkEvolon

Alan4L said:


> PAC/Shingo was fantastic as well. In the ****3/4 range.


Not a big shock, I loved their match they had in L.A.

Something like that with PAC way more evolved can only be a good thing.


----------



## Mr Joe Perfect

Alan4L said:


> PAC/Shingo was fantastic as well. In the ****3/4 range.


I was at the friday show and thought it was a great main event but pac did seem to be a bit blown up near the end. I'd probably go ****1/4 ish though but it probably would come off better on dvd.


----------



## Alan4L

TelkEvolon said:


> Not a big shock, I loved their match they had in L.A.
> 
> Something like that with PAC way more evolved can only be a good thing.


this killed their LA match, and one of the biggest issues with that was the poor sound quality on the DVD. The UK shows from everything I'm hearing may have the best production quality of any indy shows ever.


----------



## Alan4L

Mr Joe Perfect said:


> I was at the friday show and thought it was a great main event but pac did seem to be a bit blown up near the end. I'd probably go ****1/4 ish though but it probably would come off better on dvd.


PAC is not a guy who gets blown up. He was selling his midsection really well though so maybe it looked that way.


----------



## TelkEvolon

Alan4L said:


> this killed their LA match, and one of the biggest issues with that was the poor sound quality on the DVD. The UK shows from everything I'm hearing may have the best production quality of any indy shows ever.


These are Sloan shows right?

If so then I wouldn't expect anything but amazing quality.


----------



## Alan4L

TelkEvolon said:


> These are Sloan shows right?
> 
> If so then I wouldn't expect anything but amazing quality.


yup and he's saying the footage blows their previous efforts out of the water.


----------



## Groovemachine

Totally agree about Shingo vs Yokozuka III. It's my new MOTY most definitely, I'll have to watch it on DVD for a final rating but I haven't enjoyed a wrestling match like this in ages. Currently rated ****3/4 it's definitely one to look out for when the DVDs start shipping. Think I might buy the whole weekend, I'm very interested to see Shingo/Pac and the 6-man.


----------



## Mr Joe Perfect

Alan4L said:


> PAC is not a guy who gets blown up. He was selling his midsection really well though so maybe it looked that way.


I don't know there was one point that he planted shingo down which looked really sloppy where shingo landed on his side. I thought shingo looked a bit pissed off from it. If it was completely selling then he fooled me.


----------



## antoniomare007

before getting my expectations up, what match would you compare to Shingo/Yokosuka with?


----------



## Alan4L

Mr Joe Perfect said:


> I don't know there was one point that he planted shingo down which looked really sloppy where shingo landed on his side. I thought shingo looked a bit pissed off from it. If it was completely selling then he fooled me.



I know EXACTLY the spot you mean, and Shingo dished out a violent axe kick in return a few minutes later. I really believe the dropping Shingo down was more an act of "fuck this guy" to go along with the intense nature of the match as opposed to PAC being winded.


----------



## seabs

*I can totally buy SHINGO/Yokosuka III being MOTY. Didn't care a whole for II but I was great. Plus UK crowds are always great and SHINGO's been one of the best heavyweight workers this year since his return and Yokosuka is consistently good. Oh and yeah the production for Sloan's supershows on DVD is always top notch. They had a pretty big problem with cameras on the first night of the DGUK show last year but technical issues happen I guess. Brought the NOAH DVDs from this year and the whole DVD package production wise was literally flawless. Amazing cover art and menu screens.*


----------



## Alan4L

Seabs, the crowd in the last few moments of it were unlike anything I've ever seen. People were LOSING THEIR SHIT.


----------



## Ali Dia

for a Puro buying noob where do you get these dvds generally. Is it IVP or would it be the Puro company's actual website (if they have one).


----------



## smitlick

R.Scorpio said:


> for a Puro buying noob where do you get these dvds generally. Is it IVP or would it be the Puro company's actual website (if they have one).


ivp videos or a tape seller of some sort. Most japanese sites won't sell overseas anyway and you'll end up paying shitloads.


----------



## Alan4L

R.Scorpio said:


> for a Puro buying noob where do you get these dvds generally. Is it IVP or would it be the Puro company's actual website (if they have one).


also:
http://www.setbb.com/ditch/viewtopic.php?t=506&sid=749a03ef32b99f9e35e7e68da380f50c&mforum=ditch]


----------



## seabs

*Highly recommend IVP. You can get shows for $3 or just $1.50 to download them and get them instantly. First class service too. It's pretty easy to find a tape trader selling puro shows/sets as well like Lynch and Max (the link Alan posted). I can personally vouch for both of them being fair traders.*


----------



## xzeppelinfootx

IVP can take weeks sometimes but its totally worth the wait. IVP Highly recommended.


----------



## PERFECTSHOW

Created an account, because I was really suprised this match hasnt gotten any love yet - 

John Cena, CM Punk, Sheamus, Air Boom & Mason Ryan vs. Alberto Del Rio, Christian, Cody Rhodes, Dolph Ziggler, Jack Swagger & David Otunga – 6-on-6 Tag-Team Match (WWE RAW – 10/03/2011) **** 1/4

Honestly the best match on RAW in years and my TV MOTY. A Hot crowd and Ziggler channeling the ghost of Mr. Perfect and bumping like a mad man, was just amazing to watch. However, I suppose it is crazy that Mason Ryan & David Otunga are in ANYTHING considered match of the year, but, they where booked perfectly here.


----------



## Bubz

Definitely a great match, and probably my TV MOTY aswell. And yeah, Ziggler is amazing, easily in the top 5 workers in the company.


----------



## Pat9010

That was a great match, but idk if it can top Christian/Orton from Smackdown earlier this year


----------



## Corey

*PWG - All Star Weekend 8: Night 1*

Kevin Steen & Akira Tozawa vs. El Generico & Ricochet - ****3/4

_I'm sure the majority of you have already seen this match, but if you haven't, stop whatever you're doing and watch it right fucking now. The one word to describe it is insanity. There were no weak links, no weak moments, no boring control segments, everything they did was great. Straight from the opening bell, you felt the heat from Steen & Generico, picking up right where they left off in 2010. The exchanges between Tozawa & Ricochet? Awesome. I'd love to see them in a singles match. The exchanges between Steen & Ricochet? Awesomely cringeworthy. Surprised o'Chet's spine and neck aren't snapped. I was marking out like a whore about every two or three minutes. One of the most exciting tag matches I've ever seen. Tied with Davey/Eddie right now for my current Match of the Year._


----------



## Bubz

Awesome to see you liked it. My tag of the year quite easily. I can't wait for more people to see BOLA. Shit is amazing.


----------



## Corey

I'm workin my way up to it. PWG's on an absolute roll this year.


----------



## antoniomare007

yeah, in 15 years someone is gonna make a PWG 09'-11' comp and it's gonna blow people's mind.


----------



## Pat9010

BOLA and Perils are both great shows. PWG is on top right now


----------



## Concrete

NVC vs El Generico and Ricochet is by far my tag MOTY. I for some reason didn't think it was that great on first viewing, mostly because when I first watch a dvd I am doing homework or something and extremely distracted, but on the second viewing I just thought it was complete amazingness. Balls to the wall action. It isn't my MOTY right now but I bet everyone is going to be changing their opinions on a lot of things when the end of the year comes around so who knows.


----------



## Alan4L

PERFECTSHOW said:


> Created an account, because I was really suprised this match hasnt gotten any love yet -
> 
> John Cena, CM Punk, Sheamus, Air Boom & Mason Ryan vs. Alberto Del Rio, Christian, Cody Rhodes, Dolph Ziggler, Jack Swagger & David Otunga – 6-on-6 Tag-Team Match (WWE RAW – 10/03/2011) **** 1/4
> 
> Honestly the best match on RAW in years and my TV MOTY. A Hot crowd and Ziggler channeling the ghost of Mr. Perfect and bumping like a mad man, was just amazing to watch. However, I suppose it is crazy that Mason Ryan & David Otunga are in ANYTHING considered match of the year, but, they where booked perfectly here.


I adored that match! My US TV MOTY so far.


----------



## peachchaos

Top Picks in Bold:

*CM Punk vs John Cena - WWE Championship - Money In The Bank 2011 ****1/2*
CM Punk vs John Cena - WWE Championship - Summerslam 2011 ****1/4
Triple H vs CM Punk - No DQ Match - Night Of Champions 2011 ****
Austin Aries vs Low Ki vs Jack Evans vs Zema Ion - Destination X 2011 ****
Roderick Strong vs Jay Briscoe - ROH World Championship - Only The Strong Will Survive ****
Davey Richards vs Chris Hero - Only The Strong Will Survive ****
Davey Richards vs TJ Perkins - SoCal Showdown II ****
Davey Richards vs Roderick Strong - Honor Takes Center Stage Chapter 1 ****1/4
Briscoes vs All Night Express - Honor Takes Center Stage Chapter 2 ****1/4
Davey Richards & Briscoes vs Roderick Strong & Kings Of Wrestling - ROH on HDNet 04.04.2011 ****1/4
Eddie Edwards vs Michael Elgin - Defy Or Deny ****
Christopher Daniels vs Davey Richards - Pure Wrestling Rules - Manhattan Mayhem IV ****1/4
Eddie Edwards vs Roderick Strong - ROH World Championship - Manhattan Mayhem IV ****1/4
*Kings Of Wrestling vs American Wolves - Revolution USA ****1/2*
Eddie Edwards vs Chris Hero - ROH World Championship - Revolution Canada ****1/4
Briscoes vs All Night Express - Street Fight - Supercard Of Honor VI ****1/4
Eddie Edwards vs Roderick Strong - ROH World Championship - Supercard Of Honor VI ****1/4
El Generico vs Christopher Daniels - ROH TV Championship - Best In The World 2011 ****
Davey Richards vs Eddie Edwards - ROH World Championship - Best In The World 2011 ****
*American Wolves vs Adam Cole & Kyle O'Reilly - No Escape ****3/4*
All Night Express vs Briscoes - Ladder War - Death Before Dishonor IX ****1/4
*Claudio Castagnoli vs El Generico - PWG World Championship - Kurt RusselReunion II ****1/2*
*Young Bucks vs Kevin Steen & Akira Tozawa - DDT4 2011 ****1/2*
Willie Mack vs Roderick Strong - Card Subject To Change III ****
Young Bucks vs El Generico & Ricochet - PWG World Tag Team Championships - Card Subject To Change III ****1/4
*Kevin Steen & Akira Tozawa vs El Generico & Ricochet - All Star Weekend 8 Night 1 ****1/2*
Akira Tozawa vs Chris Hero - All Star Weekend 8 Night 2 ****1/4
Kevin Steen vs PAC - Eight ****
Chris Hero vs Willie Mack - BOLA 2011 ****
Kevin Steen vs Finlay - BOLA 2011 ****
Claudio Castagnoli vs El Generico - BOLA 2011 ****1/4
*El Generico vs Kevin Steen - BOLA 2011 ****3/4*

Personal Favorite: Davey Richards vs Tony Kozina - Pancras Rules - ROH on HDNet 03.14.2011 N/R


----------



## Cactus

PWG is the hottest thing in wrestling today. I absolutely love it.


----------



## Fighter Daron

You need to see Puro, seriously.


----------



## Bubz

PWG is promotion of the year for me. NJPW is probably second.


----------



## peachchaos

Cactus said:


> PWG is the hottest thing in wrestling today. I absolutely love it.



Yep. I've watched what seems like a million ROH shows and none of them really stand out, but there has been something special on nearly every PWG show. With a TV show added to the mix, I'm just overwhelmed by the ROH output. There's simply no need to watch that much programming from one company, especially if most of it is unspectacular. Richards, Lethal and WGTT are all severely boring champions. Edwards, Generico, ANX and the Briscoes as challengers do very little to interest me. I was pretty gung-ho about supporting ROH once they got back on TV, but the product just wears me out something awful. The production values don't help, I mean honestly -- I watched a Punk-Ambrose match shot on someone's iPhone that had better VQ than ROH TV/iPPV. 

PWG, on the other hand, I only see about once a month. Sometimes takes me the whole month to watch one show (usually two matches at a time), but I'm entertained by most of it. Not trying to turn it into a competition - especially since part of the reason PWG is "allowed" to be so awesome is because they aren't trying to compete for viewers - but PWG is easily the most entertaining promotion for my money.

Edit: If there's a puro show as good as BOLA, let me know and I'll check it out. I'm just not that big on any of the big stars over there right now. Who are some standouts? NOAH seems pretty weak right now, and I'm not huge on the DG style.


----------



## Bubz

Yeah I'm not a fan of DG at all but they do have some great wrestlers, Tozawa and SHINGO being my favorite. The standout wrestlers for me would be;

NJPW: Shinsuke Nakamura, Hirooki Goto, Minoru Suzuki, Prince Devitt
NOAH: Go Shiozaki, Katsuhiko Nakajima, Takashi Sugiura, Jun Akiyama, KENTA

They are the two puro promotions I follow anyway.


----------



## Fighter Daron

Good puro shows?
*
NJPW:* Wrestle Kingdom, Fantastica Mania Night 2, The New Beginning in Miyagi, Wrestling Dontaku, Best of the Super Juniors(Night 1), Dominion 6.18, G1 Climax(Day 3, 9 and Final), Destruction.
*AJPW:* Champion's Carnival(Day 1).
*NOAH:* Great Voyage in Tokyo Vol.1, Shiny Navigation Day 9 and European Navigation Night 2.
*Zero-1:* 10th Anniversary.
*DDT:* Dramatic Fantasia 309 & 313, Jugdment 2011.
*Kensuke Office:* Take The Dream 2011.


----------



## bigbuxxx

Bubz said:


> NJPW: Shinsuke Nakamura, Hirooki Goto, Minoru Suzuki, Prince Devitt


have to add Hiroshi Tanahashi here. Despite what people think about him, he consistently puts on good-epic matches. i have his match vs Kojima on 1/4 at ****3/4 and vs Goto on 6/18 at ****3/4.


----------



## Cactus

Fighter Daron said:


> You need to see Puro, seriously.


You talking to me? If you are, that's a silly thing to say considering my avatar and sig.


----------



## Fighter Daron

Cactus said:


> You talking to me? If you are, that's a silly thing to say considering my avatar and sig.


I was talking to the guy that put his list of MOTYC in this forum and hadn't any match from Japan.


----------



## bigbuxxx

My puro list from this year:

Tanahashi vs. Goto @ Destruction on 6/18 - ****3/4
Tanahashi vs Kojima - WK V - ****3/4
Shingo vs. Tozawa @ DG World Festival - ****1/2
Takayama vs. Shiozaki - 9/23 - ****1/2
Apollo 55 vs. No Remorse Corps - 10/10 - ****1/2
Nakamura vs. Naito - G-1 Climax final - ****1/4-****1/2
Dragon Kid/PAC vs. CIMA/Ricochet @ DG World Festival - ****1/4-****1/2
Tanahashi vs. Nakamura on 9/19 - ****1/4
Shiozaki vs. Sugiura - 7/10 - ****1/4
Tanahashi vs. Nagata - 4/3 - ****1/4
Devitt/Taguchi vs. Ibushi/Omega on 1/23 - ****1/4
Tanahashi vs Naito - 10/10 - ****1/4
Suzuki vs. Nakajima - 5/3 - ****1/4
Devitt vs. KUSHIDA - 9/19 - ****1/4
Shiozaki/Sugiura/Taniguchi vs. Takayama/KENTA/Kanemaru on 9/11 - ****1/4
Nakamura, Tanaka, Takahashi vs MVP, Goto, Naito - on 9/11 ****1/4
Tanahashi vs. Yano G-1 Climax Day 9 - ****:
BxB Hulk vs. Mochizuki @ DG World Festival - ****
MiSu vs. Sugiura 5/8 - ****
Suzuki vs. Nakajima - 9/23 - ****
KENTA vs. Takayama - 1/15 - ***3/4
Tanahashi vs. Kojima on 2/20 - ***3/4
Nagata/Goto vs. Yano/Nakamura on 10/3 - ***3/4
Hayato vs. Kanemoto - ***1/2
Ibushi vs. Devitt @ WK V on 1/4 - ***1/2


----------



## antoniomare007

the lack of Daisuke, Okabayashi and Yoshihito Sasaki breaks my heart


----------



## Fighter Daron

*NJPW*
1. Hiroshi Tanahashi Vs Hirooki Goto 
2. Hiroshi Tanahashi Vs Tetsuya Naito 
3. Hiroshi Tanahashi Vs Satoshi Kojima II
4. Satoshi Kojima Vs Shinsuke Nakamura II
5. Toru Yano Vs Hiroshi Tanahashi 
6. Hiroshi Tanahashi Vs Shinsuke Nakamura II
7. Satoshi Kojima Vs Hiroshi Tanahashi I
8. Tetsuya Naito Vs Shinsuke Nakamura 
9. Kota Ibushi & Kenny Omega Vs Prince Devitt & Ryusuke Taguchi I
10. Yuji Nagata Vs Yoshihiro Takayama 
11. Prince Devitt Vs Kota Ibushi I
12. Shinsuke Nakamura Vs Minoru Suzuki 
13. Hiroshi Tanahashi Vs Yuji Nagata I
14. Prince Devitt Vs KUSHIDA 
15. Hiroki Goto Vs Shinsuke Nakamura II
16. Hiroshi Tanahashi Vs Shinsuke Nakamura I
17. Prince Devitt & Ryusuke Taguchi Vs Kota Ibushi & Kenny Omega II
18. Yuji Nagata Vs Masato Tanaka 
19. Hiroyoshi Tenzan Vs Shinsuke Nakamura 
20. Karl Anderson Vs Satoshi Kojima 
21. Hiroyoshi Tenzan Vs Satoshi Kojima 
22. Satoshi Kojima Vs Shinsuke Nakamura I
23. Hirooki Goto Vs Satoshi Kojima 
24. Togi Makabe Vs Masato Tanaka
25. Prince Devitt & Ryusuke Taguchi Vs Davey Richards & Rocky Romero I
26. Koji Kanemoto Vs Fujita "Jr." Hayato 
27. Shinsuke Nakamura Vs Karl Anderson 
28. Hirooki Goto Vs Tetsuya Naito 
30. Hiroshi Tanahashi Vs Yuji Nagata II
31. Prince Devitt vs. Davey Richards

*NOAH*
1. Kotaro Suzuki Vs Katsuhiko Nakajima II
2. Kotaru Suzuki Vs Katsuhiko Nakajima I 
3. Go Shiozaki Vs Yoshihiro Takayama 
4. Jun Akiyama Vs Katsuhiko Nakajima
5. Takeshi Morishima & Shuhei Taniguchi Vs Kings of Wrestling
6. Go Shiozaki Vs Jun Akiyama 
7. Kensuke Sasaki Vs Takashi Sugiura
8. Takashi Sugiura Vs Giant Bernard 
9. Takashi Sugiura Vs Minoru Suzuki 
10. Go Shiozaki Vs Katsuhiko Nakajima
11. Takashi Sugiura Vs Trevor Murdoch 
12. Takashi Sugiura Vs Claudio Castagnoli 
13. KENTA Vs Yoshihiro Takayama
14. KENTA & Genba Hirayanagi & Yoshinabu Kanemaru Vs Takashi Sugiura & Taiji Ishimori & Atsushi Aoki 
15. Takeshi Sugiura Vs Kotaro Suzuki 
16. Go Shiozaki Vs Shuhei Taniguchi I

*DDT*
1. Dick Togo Vs Kota Ibushi 
2. Antonio Honda Vs Dick Togo 
3. Dick Togo Vs HARASHIMA 

*Zero-1*
1. Daisuke Sekimoto Vs Ikuto Hidaka
2. Shinjiro Otani Vs Yoshihiro Takayama
3. Daisuke Sekimoto Vs KAMIKAZE 

*AJPW*
1. Suwama Vs Masakatsu Funaki

*BJW*
1. Daisuke Sekimoto & Yuki Okabayashi vs Manabu Soya & Ryuto Hama

*Kensuke Office*
1. Katsuhiko Nakajima & Kengo Mashimo Vs BxB Hulk & Fujita Jr Hayato


----------



## bigbuxxx

I didn't rate any G-1 matches except the finals because the entire thing is fun, albeit very time consuming. Some stand out matches for me were:
Nagata vs Tanahashi
Takayama vs Nagata
Inoue vs Strongman (not a great match but well booked imo which made it seem vg to me)
MiSu vs Nakamura on the final day
Kojima vs Tenzan

worst match of the g-1:
goto vs strongman only because of the booking :cuss:


----------



## Chismo

Top 3 in Puro 2011:

1. Go/Akiyama ****1/2
2. Go/Takayama ****1/2
3. K. Suzuki/Nakajima I ****1/2

I watched a shitload of New Japan, but only few matches entered the **** territory.


----------



## bigbuxxx

JoeRulz said:


> Top 3 in Puro 2011:
> 
> 1. Go/Akiyama ****1/2
> 2. Go/Takayama ****1/2
> 3. K. Suzuki/Nakajima I ****1/2
> 
> I watched a shitload of New Japan, but only few matches entered the **** territory.


diff strokes for diff folks . i don't think go/akiyama hit *** for me.

Nice edit FD, much more readable.


----------



## peachchaos

Fighter Daron said:


> I was talking to the guy that put his list of MOTYC in this forum and hadn't any match from Japan.


After 20+ years as a fan, I finally started watching AJPW about a month ago. Its all been really great and I've def grown as a fan and feel more fulfilled having watched some of it. I can't wait to get home from work every day to see what awesome match is next on my list. While there have been some really cool Japanese workers, its always the gaijin stars that appeal to me the most. I can't help it. I'm uh-mare-a-can.

The newer stuff doesn't have nearly as much appeal to me, so I try to watch as much of the current American scene as I can, rather than seeing only a little bits from both countries. So while I lack any experience viewing current puro, I essentially have seen the most relevant matches/moments from the US indy scene. I'd rather know everything about 1 thing, than a little bit about 2 things.


----------



## Fighter Daron

peachchaos said:


> I'd rather know everything about 1 thing, than a little bit about 2 things.


Well, I respect your opinion, but I have to know everything from EEUU and Japan, from the nineties, the eighties, the present xD


----------



## Bubz

Puro matches I have rated over 4* this year are
Takashi Sugiura vs Kensuke Sasaki (NOAH 07/23/11) ****1/2
Go Shiozaki vs Yoshihiro Takayama (NOAH 23/9) ****1/2
Go Shiozaki vs Katsuhiko Nakajima (NOAH European Navigation Night 2) ****1/2
Go Shiozaki vs Jun Akiyama (NOAH 06/08/11) ****1/2
Hiroshi Tanahashi vs Hirooki Goto (NJPW Dominion) ****1/2
* Kotaro Suzuki vs Katsuhiko Nakajima II (NOAH Shiny Navigation) ****1/4
Daisuke Sekimoto vs Ikuto Hidaka (ZERO-1 01/01/11) ****1/4
Kings Of Wrestling vs Takeshi Morishima & Shuhei Taniguchi (NOAH European Navigation Night 2) ****1/4
Kotaro Suzuki vs Eddie Edwards (NOAH 01/29/11) ****1/4
Daisuke Sekimoto & Yuji Okabayashi vs Seiya Sanada & Manabu Soya (AJPW 1st match) ****1/4
Hiroshi Tanahashi vs Satoshi Kojima (NJPW Wrestle Kingdom V) ****1/4

So yeah, Go is one of my favorite wrestlers this year. I've watched a lot of NJPW stuff but not much made it over the **** range for me.

EDIT!!!

* just watched *Nakajima vs Suzuki II*. Awesome match and I liked it a lot more than their first match this year. I loved the first portion of the match with Nakajima just dominating Kotaro completely with strikes. Nakajima knows how to do a workover segment just using strikes and a few submissions and keep it really fun at the same time. What seemed like Kotaro's comeback was slightly ruined by a botched suicide dive which kind of hurt the flow for a minute, but it allowed Nakajima to control the match for a bit longer which is a good thing as I think Suzuki is best playing the underdog and making a comeback. There is a slight second botch on the turnbuckle but it didn't really hurt the match at all. The eventual comeback is awesome though and leads to an epic finishing stretch with a completely unexpected ending that is very rare to see. **SPOILERS** the finish with the strikes and then the eventual KO kick by Nakajima was awesome and one of the best and well done strike exchanges this year I think. *****1/4* and added to my puro list for the year.


----------



## antoniomare007

*Fit Finlay vs Timothy Thatchter - Pro Wrestling BUSHIDO 18/10/11*

Mat and technical greatness. I don't give a damn about video or audio quality so I was able to enjoy this regardless of this being a fancam. Wouldn't call it a high end MOTYC but it's so refreshing to see a match like this in today's indy wrestling that I find it inevitable not lo love it. It's my favorite Finlay match on 2011 (although I can see myself being alone on that one so don't watch this with stupid high expectations), this could have a been just a decent match but Finlay's mannerisms and attention to detail in every freaking thing he does in the ring are so great you have to see it. I also thought Thatcher was really good too.

It's a shame there's some parts missing but hey, it's way better than not having any footage of this.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQxutZqd_r0 --> part 1 (parts 2 and 3 are from different camera angles)


----------



## Caponex75

Seriously, more people need to watch the 9/11 NOAH tag match. http://www.megaupload.com/?d=8YJLRF8R <-----NOW


----------



## Bubz

Capone, what was the match? I can't remember hearing anything.


----------



## Caponex75

Shiozaki, Sugiura, & Taniguchi vs. Takayama, KENTA, & Kanemaru

http://www.wrestlingforum.com/other-wrestling/532607-2011-motyc-thread-210.html#post10382902


----------



## Fighter Daron

Caponex75 said:


> Seriously, more people need to watch the 9/11 NOAH tag match. http://www.megaupload.com/?d=8YJLRF8R <-----NOW


It's so entertaining and makes you into Go/Takayama and KENTA/Sugiura, but it's not MOTYC stuff.


----------



## bigbuxxx

Bubz said:


> Capone, what was the match? I can't remember hearing anything.


yeah this is a great match with a ton of heat attached to it. good set up to go/takayama on 9/23


----------



## jawbreaker

Finally watched Suzuki vs. Nakajima from 9/23. I loved their 3/5 match, it's currently my #2 MOTY at ****1/2. This one did a lot of cool stuff playing off of that, particularly on Nakajima's end. Real good opening stretch here and an incredible finishing sequence, but in the middle there was a lot that felt stupid and awkward, a lot of the same stuff I get mad at Davey Richards for doing. Suzuki's comeback just didn't work because of this, and that hurt quite a bit. Still, they did a lot of stuff very well, particularly Suzuki's desperation Tiger Driver attempt and reliance on the elbows, and Nakajima's entire demeanor and general brutality.

****1/4.


----------



## Bubz

Nakajima is just awesome. I actually liked that match more than their first despite the few botches in there. The finishing stretch was pretty awesome to say the least.

just wondering what was the Davey type stuff that annoyed you?


----------



## jawbreaker

stupid strike battles, no-selling backdrops, standing around waiting to get hit, etc.


----------



## bigbuxxx

jawbreaker said:


> stupid strike battles, no-selling backdrops, standing around waiting to get hit, etc.


hey you just described all of NOAH


----------



## wildpegasus

Caponex75 said:


> Seriously, more people need to watch the 9/11 NOAH tag match. http://www.megaupload.com/?d=8YJLRF8R <-----NOW


Yes definitely. Some of the most fun I've had watching wrestling in ages. I'll be remembering this match for years and years. I think it does a really great job of sticking out from anything out there from anywhere.


----------



## Kid Kamikaze10

bigbuxxx said:


> hey you just described all of NOAH


And that's why the people who do things differently get highlighted. 

I agree with those, and include pretty crappy shoot wrestling at times (then again, I used to watch guys like Volk Han and Takada) and as some have called it, Davetensity


----------



## seabs

*How the fuck are people not put off by the high number of awful botches in Suzuki/Nakajima II?*


----------



## Ali Dia

DGUSA: Mercury Rising 2011

Tozawa v PAC: ***3/4
YAMATO v Aries: ****1/2 (odd how i haven't heard much talk for this, its in my top 5 MOTY now, but havent seen much since june)
6 man: ****


----------



## Fighter Daron

Seabs said:


> *How the fuck are people not put off by the high number of awful botches in Suzuki/Nakajima II?*


High numbers?, I count two, the dive and the top rope.


----------



## seabs

Fighter Daron said:


> High numbers?, I count two, the dive and the top rope.


*http://www.wrestlingforum.com/10447668-post2173.html

Too many for me. Killed my interest and enjoyment of the match.*


----------



## Chismo

Seabs said:


> *How the fuck are people not put off by the high number of awful botches in Suzuki/Nakajima II?*


Those botches were "natural" and didn't hurt the match one bit. Kotaro's botches actually helped, the match looked much more realistic. And how can you blame him, his head was definitely fucked up after Jima's lethal kicks, lol...


----------



## Bubz

I didn't feel the botches took away much, although the suicide dive seemed to lose them for about 30 seconds which slowed it down.


----------



## seabs

*If Nakajima is kicking people in the head that hard that they can't wrestle efficiently then isn't Nakajima technically doing his job wrong?

I guess it's a similar story to Punk/Cena with how much you can enjoy the match despite numerous noticeable botches.*


----------



## Bubz

I can only remember Nakajima kicking him in the chest and back before the finishing stretch, not the head. Maybe I missed it, but he did throw some sick kicks in that one.

Watched that NOAH 6 man between *Shiozaki, Sugiura, Taniguchi and Takayama, KENTA, Kanemaru.*
It was really good, I loved Go/Takayama and KENTA/Sugiura going after eachother even when they weren't in the ring together. It turned into an all out war at one point with crowd brawling that was cool because it's something you rarely see in japan. Sugi/KENTA exchanges were the best part and man, they really make it seem like they despise eachother. I thought it was good letting Taniguchi and Kanemaru finish the match as they didn't really do much at all until the finishing stretch as the focus was always on the other 4. I'm still not a fan of Taniguchi, he just does nothing for me, he's not bad or anything though, and I've never liked Kanemaru really. ****


----------



## jawbreaker

for me, the only time a botch detracts from the quality of the match is if it breaks my suspension of disbelief. For example, if a botched move is sold like it hit perfectly (like in Punk/Cena), or if, after a botch, they almost immediately set up the same spot they botched (like in KENTA/Marufuji I think it was). if botches are handled well then they really don't matter to me.


----------



## Bubz

*Steen vs Davey*

I'm going to get this out of the way first, but at 13 minutes and 09 seconds into the match someone phoned me so I paused the match. As it was paused on my laptop and I was on the phone I was just looking at the picture and something looked weird. Davey had just kicked out of the pump handle neckbreaker, and he's on the floor and Steen is kind of crawling over to him. I realised what it was, Davey looked like he had 3 arms and Steen LOOKED LIKE A WEREWOLF, even more reason for this show to be called Steen Wolf instead!

Anyway, I really liked this match. I loved some of the exchanges near the end with Davey going after Steen's leg. I don't really know what else to say because there wasn't much of a story present but the action was great and that's all I expected really. Davey was good and didn't get too silly like he sometimes can and it's when he doesn't that I really like him and get into his matches. Steen is definitely the most over guy in the company and I love how in pretty much every match he has in PWG he manages to get some form of Generico hate into it. It's like it's all he thinks about and really put's over the feud. ******

The crowd was kind of annoying and there were these three or four guys trying desperately to be funny and get over and it was awesome seeing Steen completely own one of the guys (who had a Generico shirt). If there is one wrestler not to heckle it would probably be Steen.

Post match was great with the Bucks attacking Steen again and Generico running them off and telling Steen he wanted a title match only to get kicked in the balls! Steen's promo was pretty intense, he asked Generico where his little friend was from BOLA and then said he wasn't there BECAUSE HE KILLED HIM! Holy shit. Ladder match should be bonkers.


----------



## Yeah1993

jawbreaker said:


> for me, the only time a botch detracts from the quality of the match is if it breaks my suspension of disbelief. For example, if a botched move is sold like it hit perfectly (like in Punk/Cena), or if, after a botch, they almost immediately set up the same spot they botched (like in KENTA/Marufuji I think it was). if botches are handled well then they really don't matter to me.


Haven't seen the match being talked, but I agree with this. A botch can work in favour for a few things. 

example A- Liger v Sasuke. Sasuke is the indy punk challenging Liger in the semi-finals of the J-Cup. Liger's already been heralded for best junior in the world by that point. Sasuke fucks his hurricanrana thing, Liger laughs him, and gets caught by Sasuke because he didn't capitilise on the botch through his own underestimation.

example B- Jericho v Eddy- Jericho jumps from the top rope to the outside where Eddy's standing to dive on him, but trips and falls to the ground. Guerrero, being the dick that he is, points and laughs.

If a botch is completely ignored, then it becomes a problem. I notice that TONS with WWE. They either crap about which move was being attempted or just ignore it in an awkward mess of stutters. Gorilla Monsoon was the best at that sort of acknowledgement. He usually just said, "he didn't really get all of it."


----------



## TelkEvolon

Yeah1993 said:


> Gorilla Monsoon was the best at that sort of acknowledgement. He usually just said, "he didn't really get all of it."


Nothing is worse than awkward silence after a botch, just say he slipped up or didn't get all of it. A botch is as realistic any other part of a match, not everything is going to hit perfectly everytime.

We all seen that it didn't go as it was meant to, at least make it feel part of the match, call a slip a slip, it happends. If a move just grazes, make mention of why they didn't get the pin from it.


----------



## Caponex75

jawbreaker said:


> for me, the only time a botch detracts from the quality of the match is if it breaks my suspension of disbelief. For example, if a botched move is sold like it hit perfectly (like in Punk/Cena), or if, after a botch, they almost immediately set up the same spot they botched (like in KENTA/Marufuji I think it was). if botches are handled well then they really don't matter to me.



Are you talking about from their GHC Heavyweight title match where KENTA didn't catch Marufuji in the GTS position the right way when Fuji jumped off the ropes? I love that one because when KENTA picks him up for the GTS again, it seemed like Marufuji knew exactly what he was going for now and dropped on him his head for it. I thought it kinda added to the match instead of REVERSALS~!.


And I just can't finish watching Richards vs. Steen. Some dick in the crowd literally killed the match for me. Someone should of threw their drink at him.


----------



## antoniomare007

*SUWAMA vs Jun Akiyama - All Japan 23/10/11*

Since this show ended I've been reading how those who saw it live compared this match to the good ol' days of 90's All Japan...I can't say they were wrong. It's one of those matches that 20 minutes in you are like "yeah, this is good but it's not THAT good" and when it's all over you are losing your fucking mind. My only complaint was the suplex exchange spot that has lost all meaning to me at this point (and Jun could have sold the back a little better towards the end but whatever), but overall this a GREAT heavyweight battle where you get the feeling that something special is happening. The crowd was good but once they realized Akiyama had a legit chance of winning they went batshit crazy in the final stretch. It didn't feel like NOAH's 30 minutes matches where most of the time the middle portion drags, goes nowhere and you are left with the feeling that the match should have been 7 minutes shorter. This one slowly build to an amazing final sequence and had a better flow than most heavyweight title mainevents. 

****1/2-****3/4


ps: link http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-wjiZqsg6yo&feature=player_embedded


----------



## WOOLCOCK

Nice review, Akiyama is my favourite worker in Japan when it comes to working longer matches so I'll defo try and watch it before end of the year.


----------



## gusbarba

SUWAMA vs Jun Akiyama - All Japan 23/10/11

****3/4
GREAT MATCH. awesome last 10 min....


----------



## Alan4L

just watched the June DGUSA Long Island show. Two incredible matches on this.

Tozawa vs. Fox - Fox's best match that I've seen. They clicked so well.
PAC vs. Ricochet vs. Swann - the nuttiest high flying you can imagine

****1/2 each for my money


----------



## Bubz

Holy shit. I need to see Akiyama/SUWAMA. Akiyama is awesome.


----------



## dk4life

Watched about 4 matches from The Perils of Rock 'n' Roll Decadence, and only one match I really enjoyed, Starting to love RockNES, and Yuma is awesome, and first time I seen the smash brothers, I have heard about them, but they were really awesome, wasn't to set on the finish thou, seemed off, the other matches were alright, but got the 2 middle single matches and the tag team title match, which seem interesting

RockNES Monsters vs. Super Smash Brothers - ****¼


----------



## leglock

The Suwama vs. Jun Akiyama match is extremely smartly layered. I would put on the level of the 6/18/1998 Toshiaki Kawada vs. Kenta Kobashi Triple Crown match. Akiyama's back selling was absolutely phenomenal, and the Suplex spot was not contrived at all vs. Akiyama/Kensuke, for comparison.


----------



## jawbreaker

about halfway through Eight and I've got two matches to add to this thread:

*Kevin Steen vs. Pac:* not a whole lot to say about this beyond what's already been said. Steen is amazing and I will watch anything he does. Pac was great here too, and the Reseda crowd going nuts for everything added a lot too. 
******

*El Generico and Ricochet vs. Alex Shelley and Roderick Strong:* looooved this. Character dynamics were very non-traditional, but it really worked well, to the point where I got unwittingly caught up in the story. The Shelley/Ricochet interactions were great, and Generico was really good of the hot tag. There was also some really cool attention to detail and just about everything made sense. Ran a little longer than I maybe would have liked, but the story they told worked best that way, so I'm cool with it.
*****1/4*

updated MOTY list:

1. Steen/Tozawa vs. Goodtime/Yuma, All Star Weekend 8, Night 2, ****1/2
2. Suzuki vs. Nakajima, 3/1 NOAH, ****1/2
3. Hidaka vs. Sekimoto, 1/1 ZERO-1, ****1/4
4. Castagnoli vs. Generico, Kurt RussellReunion 2, ****1/4
5. Suzuki vs. Nakajima, 9/23 NOAH, ****1/4
6. Strong vs. Mack, Card Subject to Change 3, ****1/4
7. Strong/Shelley vs. Generico/Ricochet, Eight, ****1/4
8. Goto vs. Tanahashi, NJPW 6/18, ****1/4
9. Strong vs. Briscoe, Only the Strong Survive, ****
10. Steen vs. Pac, Eight, ****
11. Cena vs. Punk, Money in the Bank, ****
12. Strong vs. Edwards, Death Before Dishonor IX, ****
13. Hero vs. Edwards, Revolution Canada, ****


----------



## seabs

*Big Van Walter vs Axeman - wXw World Championship - wXw Broken Rulz XI*
_Shockingly great heavyweight match. Both men are good but I wouldn't call either great unless they're in with someone who can make them great. Here though they clicked so well and everything just worked for them, really easy to watch._

****3/4+*

*Davey Richards vs ACH - St. Louis Anarchy Will Wrestle For Food*
_Really refreshing to see Davey working the style of match that he should do in a toned down environment where he doesn't feel the need to overdo everything. Lack of emotion that he showed in this helped him so much, especially with the style of match that he worked here as the more experienced veteran teaching the kid a lesson and taking no shit from him with his stiff strikes. ACH is fucking good. Think a mix between Rich Swann and Troy off Community and you've got him. Really liked his selling and the story of the match worked with the champ being the underdog and having to prove he deserved to be the champ. Finish was neat too._

****3/4*


----------



## antoniomare007

leglock said:


> The Suwama vs. Jun Akiyama match is extremely smartly layered. I would put on the level of the 6/18/1998 Toshiaki Kawada vs. Kenta Kobashi Triple Crown match. Akiyama's back selling was absolutely phenomenal, *and the Suplex spot was not contrived at all vs. Akiyama/Kensuke, for comparison.*


idk man, at this point every time I see one of those "let's trade suplexes!" spots I just roll my eyes. I don't think Akiyama/Suwama needed it. Something similar might happen with the kicking out at 1 spot but I still enjoy those when they are well executed (like in this match)

Still, it's not a long spot and it didn't affect my love for the match at all. It's just that without it I would have liked it even more.


----------



## Corey

*PWG - All Star Weekend 8: Night 2*

Chris Hero vs. Akira Tozawa - ****

_I fucking love Chris Hero. He's so damn good at structuring a match and can make almost anyone look good in the ring against him. Tozawa played the underdog role so well and got his ass whipped for pretty much the whole match, which led up to a great comeback. Hero seems to work well with small Asians (i.e. Ikuto Hidaka). Idk why but I flet like I needed to say that. Anyway, this is a match that shows you don't have to have any big spots or holy shit moments to put on a show. Nothing but strikes and suplexes here, but it was great. Tozawa's short and sweet speech afterwards was awesome._

*PWG World Championship*
Claudio Castagnoli(c) vs. Low Ki - ****

_This exceeded my expectations for sure. Lots of stiff strikes but not an overabundance of them. Instead there was some really really cool counters from both guys and some AWESOME feats of strength from Claudio. Nothing new there though. Great match._


----------



## Chismo

Yeah, I'm so happy that Jun is finally the Triple Crown Champion, can't wait to see that match.


----------



## TelkEvolon

Looking forward to watching the entire match also.


----------



## Bubz

*SUWAMA vs Jun Akiyama - All Japan 23/10/11*
:shocked:

Absolutely amazing match and my MOTY. It started slow with the feeling out process and then quickly turned into something great with Akiyama working over SUWAMA's neck and SUWAMA sold it really well. When he got the upper hand he worked over Akiyama's back and likewise Akiyama sold it amazingly. Everything made sense in this match. Akiyama's offense was completely aimed at SUWAMA's neck, and I mean pretty much everything he did. The trading sulex spot I actually liked in this match and it is something I really dislike most of the time, the last one I really liked was in Dragon/KENTA at Driven and now this one. The finishing stretch was amazing and it made Akiyama's neck work all the more great since everything was focussed on SUWAMA's neck and head and the finish was epic. So many times when I thought it was over but so glad it wasn't, and I would agree with the 90's AJPW comparisons with the way it was structured and everything, and I would have this on the level of some of those classic matches. I have no doubt that if this took place in the late 90's it would be considered a classic. This was also my first time seeing SUWAMA because I don't watch much AJPW at all really these days, and he really impressed me but Jun was the star here. he is one of my favourite Puro workers and he knows how to make stuff seem special (the selling and the finish for example). Awesome match I loved it and it's probably my favourite puro match since Sasaki/Go last year and maybe even better than that. It just seemed so special and epic to me. *******


----------



## Fighter Daron

With all those fucking stars, I think I'll be disappointed when I see it xD


----------



## smitlick

Chikara - King of Trios 2011 Night 2

- Team Osaka Pro vs F.I.S.T. ****
- Marshe Rockett vs Pinkie Sanchez vs El Generico vs Zack Sabre Jr - ****


----------



## Bruce L

*Bad Intentions vs. Go Shiozaki & Shuhei Taniguchi (GHC Tag Team Title, 10/31)*

Yet another outstanding title defense (this time of the GHC belts) for Bad Intentions, but the MVP here is Taniguchi, who finally looks like he belongs at (or at least near) the top of the card in NOAH. Against the best tag team on the planet, partnered with the GHC Heavyweight Champ, he more than held his own and looked right at home.

I really can't say enough about how impressed I am with Bad Intentions' title reign(s), especially this year. Their ability to put on consistently high-quality matches while looking absolutely dominant reminds me of Ten-Koji, or even the Miracle Violence Connection. I honestly don't think I'd mind if they held onto the IWGP belts for all of next year too.

******


----------



## Alan4L

Bruce L said:


> *Bad Intentions vs. Go Shiozaki & Shuhei Taniguchi (GHC Tag Team Title, 10/31)*
> 
> Yet another outstanding title defense (this time of the GHC belts) for Bad Intentions, but the MVP here is Taniguchi, who finally looks like he belongs at (or at least near) the top of the card in NOAH. Against the best tag team on the planet, partnered with the GHC Heavyweight Champ, he more than held his own and looked right at home.
> 
> I really can't say enough about how impressed I am with Bad Intentions' title reign(s), especially this year. Their ability to put on consistently high-quality matches while looking absolutely dominant reminds me of Ten-Koji, or even the Miracle Violence Connection. I honestly don't think I'd mind if they held onto the IWGP belts for all of next year too.
> 
> ******


Good to hear. I was worried with it being a small Differ crowd that the match might suffer.


----------



## Bruce L

Alan4L said:


> Good to hear. I was worried with it being a small Differ crowd that the match might suffer.


I won't claim to be any kind of expert on the particular characteristics of different venues, but this definitely struck me as one of the better Differ crowds I remember. Go and Taniguchi, plus the good ol' "NOAH vs. New Japan" vibe, really won this audience over.


----------



## Pat9010

I love Bad Intentions. Those dudes work hard as fuck. Taking a break from the g-1 tag league to go defend your OTHER tag belts in a DIFFERENT promotion? I hope they're champs for a long long time


----------



## djmathers1207

John Cena vs. CM Punk- Money In The Bank *****


----------



## smitlick

Chikara - King of Trios 2011 Night 3

Generico vs 1-2-3 Kid ****
Colony vs FIST ****1/4


----------



## WOOLCOCK

*William Regal vs Dean Ambrose, FCW 06/11/11*

Fucking awesome awesome match here that deserved its incredible pimping on a few other forums, Regal arguably puts in one of the performances of the year, busts out a ton of innovative and creative shit and is incredibly vicious even for Regal standards, Ambrose is the perfect foil for him with his incredible mannerisms, taunting and selling of the beating. I could see some people thinking this was too one-sided but when you follow the incidents that led to the match and Regal talking about unleashing his inner villain again, Ambrose taking as emphatic a beating as he does only to come back asking for more really put him over as this tough son of a bitch you have to respect whilst still having tremendous hate and unease towards with how demented and sick he comes across.

Match really felt like a page out of Finlay/Callihan and reminded us why Regal needs to go on a Finlay 2006 esque run on WWE TV beating the piss out of the younger guys and putting them over as only he can, Superstars this week will be essential viewing for all due to who Regal faces and I won't spoil it. Anyways Regal was just an evil motherfucker in this, him continually schooling Ambrose on the mat constantly and using it as the base for a lot of his offence was tremendous, the spot where he trapped Ambrose in an armbar before pulling and twisting his fingers is the sort of spot no-one else thinks to do that makes me adore workers like Regal, just incredible attention to detail and going the extra mile to get the most out of each burst of offence. The spot where he chokes Ambrose by holding his nose whilst he has him locked in a half sleeper/choke spot and Ambrose continually calls for him to give it all he's got everytime was probably only bettered by Regal's usage of the turnbuckle to target Dean's arm. The Genius TRAPS THE ARM THROUGH THE TURNBUCKLE in a spot I've never seen before, then unloads with a barrage of kicks and forearms to a defenceless Ambrose who's desperate kicking and fighting sold what was about to happen amazingly. 

Have to say as well Ambrose's selling was flat out awesome, like he seems to have his detractors for not being your typical indy worker but his selling and ability to work the sort of match he did with Regal left me thinking he's in a class of his own compared to most indy workers, bar maybe 2 or 3 current guys. Everything from checking and clenching his jaw after a barrage of uppercuts, to the way he left his arm limp during the Regal stretch to selling it as he rolled out of a cover left me thinking I've missed out on one of the smartest workers in recent years. His desperation one armed comeback was amazing in his resiliency yet he still managed to capture something in his character that made Regal the man you still wanted to route for, really dug how he alternated between right armed offence, elbows and headbutts to try and keep Regal down whilst protecting the injured arm. The bump he took as well to weaken the limb was fucking bonkers as well and looked frankly disgusting, also have to mention for some reason his mini burst of offence on Regal's left arm at the start was really fucking good in how it came off totally erratic and chaotic and fitted his loose cannon persona tremendously: I was reminded of how the Joker can fight and always manages to fight like a madman and in the process looks unqiue and unco-ordinated but in a good way.

Regal stole the show and put in one of the better performances of the year, Ambrose himself played a strong part in making himself as good a heel in peril as I've seen in ages and still managed to get over the story of the match where Regal took the disrespectful newcomer to town. A lot of guys would have taken the beating Dean did and wouldn't have been able to still make you hate them, I guess that's a testament to how good Dean is at adding these mannerisms that make him impossible to root for. Surefire contender for TV MOTY in any company (right now its my #1 unless I've forgotten one) at the moment and honestly I'd call it something I'd consider worthy of including on a MOTYC list, especially for WWE. Literally couldn't have made it better and the more I watch it the more I think Regal/Ambrose are the only two who could have had such a unique match-up and made it work as well as they did.

*****-****1/4*


----------



## TelkEvolon

Ambrose has gotta' get called up soon.


----------



## Groovemachine

SUWAMA vs Jun Akiyama - ****

Hmmm. I'm a bit torn here. On the one hand, the match built to a great finish and there was a heck of a lot of tension as it could have gone either way. Akiyama's work on the neck was absolutely fantastic. The thing that REALLY held it back in my mind is the fact that SUWAMA basically no sold all the neck work. Sure, it 'wore him down' throughout the match, and every time Akiyama went back to the neck it was a visible weak spot, but any time the neck wasn't being focused on, SUWAMA just forgot all about it. It started to really bug me by the end; when SUWAMA goes for the massive jackknife powerbomb, and Akiyama is sitting on his shoulders...that would RAPE your neck, there should have been some sort of detrimental effect. I'm usually not one to complain about consistent selling but it really got to me in this one.

A very good/great match, certainly, but in my mind it's held back from being MOTY caliber.


----------



## geraldinhio

RockNES Monsters vs. Super Smash Brothers - Wow , this was a blast . Lots of innovative moves and hot action . Crowd loved Super Smash Brother . Lots of please come back chants . Super Smash brothers and PWG is a match made in heaven . RockNes continue to impress , a tag reign should come sooner rather than later. ****1/4 

On a different note Dean Ambrose is fucking awesome . It's great to see the likes of Punk and Regal giving him the rub. His match with Rollins is probably my MOTY so far but i've a lot of cathing up to do .I have it at ****1/2+ tied with both of Claudios / Genericos PWG matches. I know i'm more than likely by my self on this but I havn't marked out for a match as much as Ambrose/Rollins.....well ,ever.


----------



## seancarleton77

As great as Ambrose is, and he is great it's Regal who should be main eventing with D. Bryan at Wrestlemania. The old guy is a phenomenal villain, like Hannibal Lecter. I'm a fan of Triple H & Jericho but Regal is on a whole other level when it comes to being a villain.


----------



## geraldinhio

My sendiments exactly .Love the comparison to Hannibal Lecter. Reagal is awesome and can still wrestle at the highest level and has a few years left in him. I very doubt we'll see a Regal push anytime though. Can't wait to see Regal / Bryan from this weeks Superstars , it's said to be pretty awesome as expected.


----------



## smitlick

Chikara - Aniversario & His Friends

Hallowicked vs Mike Quackenbush ****


----------



## dele

BJW 10/23 Korakuen Hall

Ryuji Ito/Masada vs Yuko Miyamoto/Isami Kodaka - Free Weapons + Fans Bring the Weapons

*** 1/2-3/4

Fun match, and I'm loving the team of Ito and Masada. Especially since they're founded on the idea that Masada hates Ito.


----------



## topper1

SUWAMA vs Jun Akiyama ****1/2


----------



## peachchaos

Regal vs. Bryan ***1/2
Regal vs. Amborse ***3/4


----------



## seancarleton77

Regal vs. Bryan ***1/2
Regal vs. Ambrose ***1/2+
Akiyama vs. Suwama is an instant motherfucking classic ****3/4


----------



## Bubz

*Regal vs Bryan - Superstars 10/11/11*
This was given quite a bit of time (alot longer than their previous matches) and it allowed these two to put on a clinic. Bryan goes after Regals leg and Regal sells it like an absolute champ and I loved how Bryan was relentless going after the injured leg. The finish was great and the looks that they exchanged after the match was really fun to watch, there was just a look of respect and 'I taught you well' on regal's part. ****3/4*

If Bryan is actually in the title match at Mania, my god that's going to be the biggest mark out moment since Punk first won the title.

@ sean, too true about Akiyama/Suwama.


----------



## geraldinhio

I'm gonna give Regal / Bryan a watch soon . I'm not into puro really , except New Japan but i'm very tempted on watching Akiyama vs. Suwama just because of the rave reviews. I'm familiar with Akiyama ,but i'm ashamed to say I have never seen a Suwama match before .


----------



## WOOLCOCK

Nice to see people loving Regal/Ambrose, expected to have it a bit higher than everyone else but still good to see a great match getting good reviews. Have to say what Ambrose may lack as a worker in terms of build and offence he more than brings in his character, selling and overall ring mannerisms.

Gonna try and watch Regal/Bryan, a couple of Mcintyre matches from Superstars and hopefully some of BOLA tonight: particularly Finlay/Steen, Hero/Mack and Claudio/Generico.

Also gonna go ahead and say Regal/Ambrose is my TV MOTY so far, though I haven't seen that multiman tag on Raw that everyone loved.


----------



## Scavo

Angle vs. Roode - ****3/4*

Takayama vs. Shiozaki - *****1/2*


----------



## antoniomare007

Agreed with the thoughts on Regal vs Bryan. I still think they could have done better with the time they were given.

Also, has anyone seen the full version of KAI vs Omega?? I saw the the 10 minutes clipped version and was turn off by the overkilling. I have no idea if it gets better or worse... 

Also wondering how was the All Asia tag match, the last time they faced each other they kinda lost the "magic" they had in the trilogy. 



geraldinhio said:


> I'm gonna give Regal / Bryan a watch soon . I'm not into puro really , except New Japan but i'm very tempted on watching Akiyama vs. Suwama just because of the rave reviews. I'm familiar with Akiyama ,but *i'm ashamed to say I have never seen a Suwama match before* .


Nothing to be ashamed for, he is good but nothing to write home about. He stepped up big time in the Akiyama match (which the more I think about it, the more I convince myself that it's the puro MOTY so far). Seabs loved his matches with Nagata and Sanada though.


----------



## Bubz

The Akiyama match was also my first time seeing Suwama, I don't really watch All Japan, but he impressed me quite a bit in that match. He made me want to see more of him.


----------



## peachchaos

Segunda Caida said:


> Nice to see people loving Regal/Ambrose, expected to have it a bit higher than everyone else but still good to see a great match getting good reviews. Have to say what Ambrose may lack as a worker in terms of build and offence he more than brings in his character, selling and overall ring mannerisms.


Def agree with you on Ambrose. Just like some of the greats (Flair, Lawler, Funk), Ambrose can get so more out of a TV match with his acting and 3-5 moves than the Young Bucks can with their 50 superkicks and 20 minute sprints. It amazes me that what worked 30 years ago still looks fresh and realistic, but the stuff that "set the business on fire" 15 years ago really just exposed the business and has all but killed off indy wrestling. A guy like Ambrose has a natural charisma. You look at the guy and can tell he's just a mean, unpleasant person. Regal touches on that in his pre-match promo. And not to harp on the Bucks, but they don't have that charisma and therefore resort to doing a gazillion unrealistic things in one segment. They do things that would actually kill them and their opponents just to get over with the live crowd for a short time. 

Even though I love the guy, I can't recall a Regal match I've ever given more than **** to. Suggestions?


----------



## WOOLCOCK

The Bucks are great douchebag heels, but yeah when they're not in PWG and aren't bringing that classic heel character to a match there's not much to admire about them bar their athleticism and consistency in not botching a lot of their spots.

What impressed me so much in the Ambrose/Regal match is despite how sick and cruel a beating Regal dished out, Ambrose was able with his expressions and mannerisms to convey this deranged character and made it impossible for him to be the face, the Callihan match with Finlay was designed to get Sami over and you could tell Finlay worked much closer to a heel in the match. With Regal/Ambrose he took arguably a greater beating but you never once got behind him or wanted him to win, he just came off as a really tough son of a bitch but at the end of the match you still felt he got off lightly. THAT is a true wrestling talent IMO.

There's a bunch of awesome awesome Regal matches I'd put past ****, but its all about opinion at the end of the day. What I do adore about him though is how versatile he is, you could make the case he'd be able to have a career of awesome matches under 10 minutes as much as he could have awesome matches going over 15 minutes. Like all the best wrestling talents he's not restrained/limited by how much time he gets, he adapts and alters his match structure to get as much out of the time limit as he can. Its what made him the best TV champion of all time.


----------



## peachchaos

Segunda Caida said:


> There's a bunch of awesome awesome Regal matches I'd put past ****, but its all about opinion at the end of the day.


I should have prefaced that by saying that I haven't seen a lot of Regal's WCW work, so I probably just haven't seen his best stuff. I'm checking out the Marquis of Queensbury series against Flair from '94 right now, which is pretty fun.


----------



## WOOLCOCK

Great American Bash 1996 vs Sting, Uncensored 1996 vs Finlay, Fall Brawl 1993 vs Steamboat would definitely be WCW matches I'd put at ****. There's definitely a few more but my memory is pretty bleak at the moment.

Benoit series from WWE and the Pillman Memorial Show, the Ambrose Match, Hashimoto and Benoit in NJPW would also be on the list. He also had a really awesome match this year in Bucharest vs Bourne that for the time it gets stacks up against most of the stuff around the world that I've seen this year, admittely my interest in 2011 Puro and Lucha is at an all time low bar a select few wrestlers and TNA's style is just horribly shit IMO: like I can't even think of the last really good match from that promotion, it would probably be the Jarrett/Angle match from sometime in 2008. Lacks everything I love and look for in a wrestling match most of the time.


----------



## Scavo

Segunda Caida said:


> The Bucks *are great douchebag heels*, but yeah when they're not in PWG and aren't bringing that classic heel character to a match there's not much to admire about them bar their athleticism and consistency in not botching a lot of their spots.












Who else wants to kick Bucks' asses?


----------



## Bubz

Segunda Caida said:


> Nice to see people loving Regal/Ambrose, expected to have it a bit higher than everyone else but still good to see a great match getting good reviews. Have to say what Ambrose may lack as a worker in terms of build and offence he more than brings in his character, selling and overall ring mannerisms.
> 
> Gonna try and watch Regal/Bryan, a couple of Mcintyre matches from Superstars and *hopefully some of BOLA tonight: particularly Finlay/Steen, Hero/Mack and Claudio/Generico.
> *
> Also gonna go ahead and say Regal/Ambrose is my TV MOTY so far, though I haven't seen that multiman tag on Raw that everyone loved.


Looking forward to your thoughts on BOLA. As well as those 3 you should check out Steen/Generico also.


----------



## seabs

*C&P off another forum in response to Caida's review of Regal vs Ambrose.*


> Watched that today and I agree with basically everything Caida said. Really well laid out and fit the story so well with Regal building to the match saying how evil he was and it actually carried through to the match with Regal being EVIL in the ring. Loved the turnbuckle and steps spots and when Regal just stood there with his arms folded as Ambrose was stuck in the turnbuckle. Ambrose complimented him perfectly with some utterly sublime selling of the arm and his facials got his character off perfectly. I think he's a guy who really benefits from working with better workers than himself and in fairness to him when he did that chance on the Indies with Danielson and Jacobs he provided. There's an angle/match with Homicide from an EVOLVE show with Moxley which is really close to the the Ambrose with the Regal stuff which is amazing. Great character but I'm still not sure I'd call him a great worker in his own right but in the Regal match he put in a better performance than Moxley did by a million miles.


*****1/4*

*Really recommend Suwama's matches with Nagata and Sanada from this year too now that people have been turned on to him from the Akiyama match. Wouldn't call him great or anything in them but Nagata and Sanada really bring it on their side. Nagata match from CC gets a lot of love elsewhere but I'm pretty sure I'm the only one who really liked the Sanada title match yet alone loved it *


----------



## WOOLCOCK

Yeah I may leave that match for tomorrow or so since I want to finish some work as well before watching some stuff, plus I'll catch-up with some shows online.

I think I'm going to enjoy Steen/Finlay and Mack/Hero, Claudio/Generico should be the most jaw dropping match and it sounds like Claudio brings more of a character and story to the match which should sit well with me. Edwards/Strong won't be watched in the near future, probably will wait until the Edwards backlash stuff wears a little thin.


----------



## Bubz

Edwards/Strong I can't see you liking at all to be honest lol. I didn't care for it.


----------



## WOOLCOCK

Yeah some guys who I generally agree on with like 95% of stuff went to the show specifically for Finlay and raved about near enough every match bar Eddie/Roderick, Eddie/Steen and the Dynasty tag. Everything else got really good reviews with the top 3 matches being the ones I'm watching first: but yeah their summary/coverage of Eddie/Strong really didn't make me want to check it out. Think they described it as 'if you're impressed by big impressive moves which mean sod all by the end of the match then you'll enjoy it'.

Seabs loving Regal/Ambrose that much ? :mark:

You watched it yet Bubz?


----------



## seabs

*Watch everything bar Strong vs Edwards and RockNES vs Dynasty. the first 3 matches and the final are all MOTYC's and both semis are really fun if not great matches compared to the others. *


----------



## WOOLCOCK

Yeah the final really interests me, especially after Bubz's review and yours. Also tempted to watch Generico/Mack for some of the comedy since Generico doing that sort of stuff always entertains me.

There's just something about PWG in general I love about them, like they put on some great matches that directly appeal to my tastes but then there's other matches that if they took place in ROH/TNA or some other indy I'd probably not like nearly as much compared to when its in PWG. I really think the Reseda crowd and the environment truly helps even the worst match at least somewhat more enjoyable and entertaining because I really can't explain otherwise.

Bucks/KOW also really has my interest, Claudio's power vs Bucks bumping = good shit.


----------



## Bubz

Segunda Caida said:


> You watched it yet Bubz?


Just watched it.

Great match, incredibly one sided, but it never felt like a squash match. Regal's arm work was a thing of beauty (especially the awesome turnbuckle and ring steps spots) as was Dean's selling. I've seen this, the Rollins match and some of the Punk match and Ambrose seems really awesome. His gimmick and mannerism's are great and he really comes off as a wacko in the ring and in his promo's. I loved how Regal would do something like the arm in step's spot and Ambrose would just laugh it off. Regal is just an amazing worker and makes everything he does seem so much more brutal than when most other people do it. It's the little details in both Regal's and Ambrose's work that sets them apart from a lot of guys, and makes me think Ambrose should be huge in the near future. ******

I never saw any of Moxley's indie work, but I remember people didn't seem to like him all that much, but from his FCW work I can't see why he wasn't loved on the indies tbh.


----------



## WOOLCOCK

Awesome to see you loved it that much, agreed on the 'little details' aspect of Regal, the spot where he has the armbar and then starts working over Ambrose's fingers was stupidly awesome. Again like a lot of Finlay's work most of the offence and spots they utilise are so simplistic in their execution but are done so rarely you appreciate just how far guys like Regal & Finlay will go in a match.

Not seen the Punk match yet, praying like Togo/Finlay someone out there recorded the full match.


----------



## SuperDuperSonic

Segunda Caida said:


> Yeah I may leave that match for tomorrow or so since I want to finish some work as well before watching some stuff, plus I'll catch-up with some shows online.
> 
> I think I'm going to enjoy Steen/Finlay and Mack/Hero, Claudio/Generico should be the most jaw dropping match and it sounds like Claudio brings more of a character and story to the match which should sit well with me. Edwards/Strong won't be watched in the near future, probably will wait until the Edwards backlash stuff wears a little thin.


YES. I love that idea, wait until the Edwards hate may fade out a little bit, then watch it and review to bring back the frenzy.


----------



## seancarleton77

US Indy has fallen behind All Japan & New Japan where it belongs, PWG is great, but nothing outside of Generico vs. Claudio was ****1/2 - ****3/4.


----------



## dk4life

I'm looking forward to watching, Akiyama vs Suwama and Castagnoli vs Generico, I aren't a big puro fan, but its gotten rave reviews and well, I've wanted to watch Claudio/ the Generic for months, MY current MOTY's go:

Kevin Steen & Akira Tozawa vs El Generico & Ricochet - All Star Weekend 8 Night 1
CM Punk vs John Cena - WWE Championship - Money In The Bank 2011
Prince Devitt & Ryusuke Taguchi vs Davey Richards & Rocky Romero - IWGP Jr. Tag Team Championships - NJPW 10.10.2011
LDRS Of The New School vs Adam Cole & Kyle O'Reilly - wXw 16 Carat Gold Tournament Day 3
Davey Richards vs Eddie Edwards - ROH World Championship - Best In The World 2011
Randy Orton vs Christian - World Heavyweight Championship - Over The Limit 2011
Edge vs Dolph Ziggler - World Heavyweight Championship - Royal Rumble 2011
American Wolves vs Adam Cole & Kyle O'Reilly - No Escape
Akira Tozawa vs BxB Hulk - United We Stand
Austin Aries vs Low Ki vs Jack Evans vs Zema Ion - Destination X 2011


----------



## Ethan619

*William Regal vs. Dean Ambrose (FCW, 6/11/2011)*
Finally got around to watching this and it is awesome. The promos from the previous week were great, especially Regal's. The intensity in the promo was great and something that the younger wrestlers need to learn from. It is great that Regal is down in FCW helping out the younger guys, plenty to learn from him. The first few minutes are great with each shot from Regal being so intense. Every kick, forearm and punch has meaning. The selling from Ambrose in the match is great but the offence from Regal is even better. There is plenty of unique moves that Regal uses that just looked vicious! Jamming Ambrose's arm in between the steps and through the turn-buckle was great. Suffocating him but with Ambrose continuing to taunt him was great. One of the best matches of the year, definitely hoping they face off again.

*Match Rating: *****


----------



## Chismo

YAMATO vs. BxB Hulk (DGUSA REVOLT)

Son of a bitch, this shit was great! Both wrestlers look like legit badasses now, especially no-hair YAMATO, I love this guy. Emotions, good crowd, hatred, tension, sick ass finish, this is my new MOTY. There was something unique in this one, folks.
*****3/4*


----------



## smitlick

Chikara - A Demon In His Pocket

Mike Quackenbush vs Ophidian ****


----------



## Noah Mark

I just watched this match and loved it!

Davey Richards vs Chris Hero-ROH Only the Strong Survive. 1/15/11****. I am really surprised nobody has pimped this match. I thought it had great crowd heat as they were with the match the whole way. Davey worked Hero's arm well, and Hero pulled out a great stretch plum right out of Kawada's playbook.


----------



## Bruce L

Noah Mark said:


> I just watched this match and loved it!
> 
> Davey Richards vs Chris Hero-ROH Only the Strong Survive. 1/15/11****. I am really surprised nobody has pimped this match. I thought it had great crowd heat as they were with the match the whole way. Davey worked Hero's arm well, and Hero pulled out a great stretch plum right out of Kawada's playbook.


Great match. Probably hasn't gotten the love it deserves due to not _quite_ living up to their amazing PWG Title match from last summer, but definitely worth more notice than it's gotten.


----------



## bigbuxxx

it was talked about a month or two ago, i ended up watching it and think it got ****1/4 because they put on a really good match without just going through the motions to finish.


----------



## Scavo

Regal vs. Bryan from Superstars: ****1/4*

Regal vs. Ambrose from FCW: ****1/2*


----------



## Corey

Davey/Hero doesn't get much love in here because the last several minutes are overkilled to hell. Way too many ridiculous nearfalls with Davey's superman kick outs. I believe the majority of us gave it ***3/4.


----------



## Vader

Segunda Caida said:


> Great American Bash 1996 vs Sting, Uncensored 1996 vs Finlay, Fall Brawl 1993 vs Steamboat would definitely be WCW matches I'd put at ****. There's definitely a few more but my memory is pretty bleak at the moment.
> 
> Benoit series from WWE and the Pillman Memorial Show, the Ambrose Match, Hashimoto and Benoit in NJPW would also be on the list. He also had a really awesome match this year in Bucharest vs Bourne that for the time it gets stacks up against most of the stuff around the world that I've seen this year, admittely my interest in 2011 Puro and Lucha is at an all time low bar a select few wrestlers and *TNA's style is just horribly shit IMO: like I can't even think of the last really good match from that promotion, it would probably be the Jarrett/Angle match from sometime in 2008*. Lacks everything I love and look for in a wrestling match most of the time.


would that be the one at Genesis? that's coincidently the last TNA match that I saw I'd put around 4*. I found it different to the usual flash and grab style they usually produce in TNA.


----------



## jawbreaker

Roddy/Jay from the same show was much better.


----------



## Corey

I even preferred Daniels/Claudio.


----------



## smitlick

Kings of Wrestling vs American Wolves - ROH Revolution USA - ****1/4


----------



## WOOLCOCK

Vader13 said:


> would that be the one at Genesis? that's coincidently the last TNA match that I saw I'd put around 4*. I found it different to the usual flash and grab style they usually produce in TNA.


Yeah that's likely it, Genesis does ring a bell.


----------



## Rickey

^ Have you seen the Beer Money/MGMG Best of 5 series(2010), AJ/Bully Ray(2011), Anderson/Bully Ray(2011) the X-Division Contract match(2011) Angle/Anderson cage match(2010), Angle/Wolfe(2009) or AJ/Daniels/Joe(2009)?

There's been a good chunk of very good/great matches there since 2008.


----------



## Bubz

That Hero/Davey match was going good until the last 5 or so minutes and then it just got fucking stupid.


----------



## seabs

*Shinjiro Otani, Akebono & Ikuto Hidaka vs Masato Tanaka, Ryouji Sai & Super Crazy - ZERO-1.02.10.2011*
_I wish every match would be this enjoyable. Flies by for a match that isn't exactly short and everyone's totally on their games. Super Crazy was brilliant, bringing some freshness to the equation and the exchanges between him and Hidaka were awesome. I really can't speak high enough volumes of how fucking super Akebono was in this either. Everything involving him was super fun from the great sequence at the start with Crazy to the amazing tease of of diving over the top rope and the insane tease of diving off the balcony of a building. I kid not one bit. Match gets DDT crazy in the middle where all 6 men end up in the garden and Otani decides to drag his opponent all the way to the garden from the ring just to apply an abdominal stretch. There's a brilliant Super Crazy dive in there too. Otani's face wash is by far my favourite move in current wrestling. Otani's a legit contender for best worker of 2011 too. I love how he's made his botched climb up the rope he did a few shows into a regular thing. Crowd was immense too. Get on it!_

******


----------



## smitlick

Eddie Kingston vs Mike Quackenbush - Chikara High Noon
****


----------



## Corey

*Dragon Gate USA - Freedom Fight 2011*

PAC vs. Ricochet - ****1/2

_This shit blew my socks off. I thought it'd be a fun little spotfest that'd be overshadowed by another match or two on the show but boy was I wrong! Instead it was the longest match of the night packed with the most action. Both guys showed they can do more than just jump around the ring. Some good submission work early with Ricochet really impressing me in how far he's come in a short amount of time. Eventually it broke down into the fast paced, high flying match you knew it would, and it NEVER let up. A couple awesome spots out in the crowd and throughout BB Kings were a really nice touch that came out of nowhere. Incredible counter sequences throughout from two guys who know each other so well. If my mind serves me right, I think there was only two spots from the top rope. Everything else was either standing, off the middle rope, or done outside the ring. That's just insane. The two best high flyers in the world certainly delivered the goods here, and if this really is their last match against each other, they went out with one hell of a bang._

*Open The Freedom Gate Championship*
YAMATO(c) vs. Johnny Gargano - ****1/4

_Tough act to follow there, but they delivered a completely different match that had me more invested in the drama of a major title match compared to the action throughout. Don't get me wrong, the wrestling was great as it always is from the two, but the selling point were the last few minutes of incredible nearfalls and pure drama that makes this match awesome. I won't spoil anything, but I was seriously jumping up and down in my room, a la Cena/Punk from MITB. This was just another match under the belt of Gargano that shows why he NEEDS to be considered one of the best wrestlers in the country right now. He does everything so well and has flashes of greatness constantly. His moveset is a mixture of Edge, CM Punk, and Davey Richards. The guy's great. Everything post match was really well done and this really should've been the main event. But whatever, still an awesome match that everyone should enjoy._


----------



## WOOLCOCK

Rickey said:


> ^ Have you seen the Beer Money/MGMG Best of 5 series(2010), AJ/Bully Ray(2011), Anderson/Bully Ray(2011) the X-Division Contract match(2011) Angle/Anderson cage match(2010), Angle/Wolfe(2009) or AJ/Daniels/Joe(2009)?
> 
> There's been a good chunk of very good/great matches there since 2008.


Only match that came close IMO to being really really good was Wolfe/Angle and I thought near enough all of that was down to McGuinness and his character. Bully Ray/AJ was fun but I wasn't blown away by it or anything, compared to a lot of other brawls I've seen I thought it was significantly weaker but a better effort than TNA usually puts out on PPV.

I'm with Cal on not liking the MCMG/Beer Money series, I doubt I'd be as low as he was for some of the matches but I didn't think any of them were say better than Christian/Mcintyre from the 7/30 Smackdown show from last year.

Anderson/Angle was dire and I didn't think it had anything to justify it being a MOTYC.

I did like that Shelley/Williams match you linked from Xplosion or a dark match on the other forum a while back though, was a very fun match.


----------



## smitlick

*DGUSA - Open The Southern Gate*

Johnny Gargano vs CIMA
****


----------



## Bubz

Anything on Turning Point worth watching?


----------



## seancarleton77

Bubz said:


> Anything on Turning Point worth watching?


I would say you're probably more likely to find a diamond the size of your fist in a backyard than you are to find anything near **** stars on a recent TNA show.


----------



## Bubz

:lmao probably true. AJ/Roode sounds like it could be good though.


----------



## Corey

Bubz said:


> :lmao probably true. AJ/Roode sounds like it could be good though.


Of all the reviews I've read the consensus for that match seems to be around ***-***1/4 with everything else well below that.


----------



## Bubz

Ah, probably won't bother then. With TNA even the really good stuff seems less good to me just because it's in TNA, not to mention the impact zone.


----------



## FITZ

Sami Callihan vs. Adam Cole (CZW Night of Infamy)

I thought they would have a good match but I wasn't expecting anything near this level. Sami mannerisms can be a little annoying at times and there are many occasions where he is just super intense for no reason but this isn't one of them. I've been at a lot of the recent CZW shows and this was the match that they had building for months. Sami hated Cole and wanted to kill him and take the title. Cole's reaction to Callihan was perfect, he came out looking terrified but tried to make it look like he was confident anyway. 

The action was great and filled with all the intensity that a blood feud like this is supposed to have. I was happy that Cole came out alone to start things and it took awhile before some of his allies got involved. I really didn't think CZW was capable of building a feud like this and have it main event without adding some death match stipulation. Both guys showed that the CZW Jr. Heavyweight Championship is the real top title in that company. 


Mike Quackenbush vs. Eddie Kingston (Chikara High Noon)

One of the most emotional matches that I've ever live because so many people in that crowd genuinely wanted Kingston to win the title. It was more than cheering for the guy that you like or supposed to cheer for, I was cheering for Kingston because the guy fucking deserves to be crowned the champion. At this point I don't even know if his leg is really hurt or if he's achieved one of the best selling jobs that I've ever seen. The "Fighting Spirit" stuff that we see in indy wrestling can be overused a lot but the reaction that Kingston got when he kicked out at 1 near the end of the match is the perfect example of how to pull of something like that. 

Quack put in hands down the best performance that I've ever seen from him. The guy can do a lot of really cool stuff in the ring but more times than not I feel like that's the extent of his ability. Well watching him get noticeably angry at the fans and then all the wrestlers was awesome. The expressions he made when the first time the fans started to turn against him was priceless and when he realized that he had lost most of the crowd support he just have in and poked Kingston in the eyes. When poking someone in the eyes gets a big pop something about the match is going really really well. 

The match also I had a great atmosphere and without knowing all the back story you sure as hell would know that something huge was on the line. I've been at the Arena for shows quite a few times now and I've always wanted to recapture the feel that the place had when ECW was running there and I've felt that it's been close a few times with the first ever DGUSA show and Danielson/Shingo but this match, from a perspective as a fan, captured the feel of what the Arena is _supposed_ to feel like. A very special match and if I had to make a list of my best live matches that I've ever seen this would be really high on the list.


----------



## KingCrash

TaylorFitz said:


> Sami Callihan vs. Adam Cole (CZW Night of Infamy)
> 
> I thought they would have a good match but I wasn't expecting anything near this level. Sami mannerisms can be a little annoying at times and there are many occasions where he is just super intense for no reason but this isn't one of them. I've been at a lot of the recent CZW shows and this was the match that they had building for months. Sami hated Cole and wanted to kill him and take the title. Cole's reaction to Callihan was perfect, he came out looking terrified but tried to make it look like he was confident anyway.
> 
> The action was great and filled with all the intensity that a blood feud like this is supposed to have. I was happy that Cole came out alone to start things and it took awhile before some of his allies got involved. I really didn't think CZW was capable of building a feud like this and have it main event without adding some death match stipulation. Both guys showed that the CZW Jr. Heavyweight Championship is the real top title in that company.


Two questions about the show. One, how was the crowd for Sami/Cole, because for some of the other feuds the crowd has usually been non-existent and killed whatever heat the feud had going into the match and two, was the World title even defended on this show?


----------



## FITZ

KingCrash said:


> Two questions about the show. One, how was the crowd for Sami/Cole, because for some of the other feuds the crowd has usually been non-existent and killed whatever heat the feud had going into the match and two, was the World title even defended on this show?


Both guys are really over in CZW so the crowd was good for that match, terrible for all the other matches on the card though. 

And Devan Moore defended the World Title against Masada in a match with no death match stipulation. They tried to actually wrestle and it was rather terrible and had a DQ ending. Big return from someone at the end of the match though.


----------



## Bubz

*NRC vs KUSHIDA/Tiger Mask - NJPW 'POWER STRUGGLE' 12/11/11*
This was a lot of fun and I loved it from start to finish. Great workover by NRC on KUSHIDA that lead to an awesome sequence into the hot tag. Great finishing stretch with a lot of nearfalls and action. There was a hilarious spot early on where Romero kept running to the turnbuckle and hitting lariats and Davey kept waiting for his turn but it never came so he slapped Romero, the crowd laughed pretty loud which was hella cool. NRC are a great team and it's great to see them with the belts. ******


----------



## seancarleton77

No love for Tenzan vs. Kojima? ****


----------



## FITZ

So I have more proof that Sami/Cole is a MOTYC. I don't normally go out of my way to show myself at wrestling shows but my face explains my thoughts on this match. I'm the one in red.


----------



## antoniomare007

*Seiya Sanada & Manabu Soya vs Daisuke Sekimoto & Yuji Okabayashi - AJPW 10/23/11* 

Way better than their forgettable fourth match and on par with their previous great matches. Starts kinda slow with Daisuke and Oka working on Sanada but it gets better and better once Soya makes his first appearance. The second half was great with Okabayash stealing the show, imo. Yuji and Daisuke have everything to be an incredible "invader" type of team and I'm glad All Japan have given them a chance. It's just too bad that the All Asia Tag Titles is as high as I see them getting and sadly, I don't think promotions like New Japan or NOAH would book them once they are done with All Japan.

****-****1/4

link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvpK1XtrwMg



ps: KAI vs Omega was even worse without the clipping :lmao. But if you like overkill, you are gonna love it.


----------



## Chismo

YAMATO vs. Johnny Gargano, Dragon Gate USA 2011 *****1/4*

This match was brilliant, and a great moment with Gargano winning the strap. YAMATO is such a badass, and Gargano improved dramatically in 2011. Great action and storytelling. Looking forward to the Taylor/Gargano storyline.


----------



## Bubz

antoniomare007 said:


> *Seiya Sanada & Manabu Soya vs Daisuke Sekimoto & Yuji Okabayashi - AJPW 10/23/11*
> 
> Way better than their forgettable fourth match and on par with their previous great matches. Starts kinda slow with Daisuke and Oka working on Sanada but it gets better and better once Soya makes his first appearance. The second half was great with Okabayash stealing the show, imo. Yuji and Daisuke have everything to be an incredible "invader" type of team and I'm glad All Japan have given them a chance. It's just too bad that the All Asia Tag Titles is as high as I see them getting and sadly, I don't think promotions like New Japan or NOAH would book them once they are done with All Japan.
> 
> ****-****1/4
> 
> link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvpK1XtrwMg
> 
> 
> 
> *ps: KAI vs Omega was even worse without the clipping :lmao. But if you like overkill, you are gonna love it.*


I really wasn't a fan of this and not just for the overkill. It just seemed to be structured really poorly.


----------



## antoniomare007

I agree. I was shocked at how bad it was tbh, but my point was that if someone likes overkill, there's a big chance he/she is gonna enjoy it despite all the flaws.


----------



## Bubz

Yeah probably lol. Omega plays a great heel in Japan though.


----------



## Chismo

PAC vs. Richochet, DGUSA Freedom Fight '11 ****1/4


----------



## Bubz

I've literally only seen two DG matches all year. I keep saying I'll get into it but never seem to be able to.


----------



## Chismo

I'm loving DGUSA right now, especially with Gargano as a Champ.


----------



## Bruce L

I really want to get back into DGUSA, but their DVD release schedule is absolutely horrific. As a fan who doesn't want to sink money into iPPVs, it seems they're trying to discourage my business.


----------



## Corey

Bruce L said:


> I really want to get back into DGUSA, but their DVD release schedule is absolutely horrific. As a fan who doesn't want to sink money into iPPVs, it seems they're trying to discourage my business.


If you wanna wait for the DVDs, Enter The Dragon 2011 and Freedom Fight 2011 are must haves imo. That's all you _need_ to see from them this year.

*JoeRulz*, did you watch CIMA/Yoshino from the same event? Great match there too.


----------



## Emperor DC

I don't buy EVOLVE/DRAGON GATE USA releases for the pure reason that there is a ridiculous price structure, shipping cost and shipping times, to go along with it.


----------



## Corey

DeeCee said:


> I don't buy EVOLVE/DRAGON GATE USA releases for the pure reason that there is a ridiculous price structure, shipping cost and shipping times, to go along with it.


It's a much better approach to buy them on Amazon/eBay, through the Highspots store. But yeah, DGUSA dvds used to be well worth it because you got all the extra matches from Japan, but then then they stopped doing that and took 6 months to release their shows.


----------



## dele

CZW July 2011 - "New Heights"

http://www.renovation-headquarters.com/images8/gusset%20plate%202.jpg Death Match for the UVU championship.

****3/4

Yes, I went there. This was, without a shadow of a doubt, the most violent and most entertaining death match I have watched in about two years. You have a year long feud that has been bubbling and brewing. The two guys meet a) For the championship and b) For the right to face Ryuji Ito in a month, and c) Because the two have wanted to beat the shit out of each other for a long time.

Well, they certainly accomplished C.

It's a series of 20 minutes where these two guys literally tear each other to shreds. Masada is just a master of death match psychology, and Danny isn't too far behind. It's not a super technical match (if you just want a bunch of acrobats do flips, go to ROH), but the two are just great brawlers.


And fuck most of y'all who never watch death matches. Seriously, fuck you.


----------



## peachchaos

Nah, fuck people really getting hurt in a staged sport.


----------



## dele




----------



## Emperor DC

Those poor Africans could do with those light tubes in their huts.


----------



## Bubz

:lmao


----------



## bigbuxxx

dele said:


> It's not a super technical match (if you just want a bunch of acrobats do flips, go to ROH), but the two are just great brawlers.
> 
> 
> And fuck most of y'all who never watch death matches. Seriously, fuck you.


you sound like a super cool guy irl ...



> Nah, fuck people really getting hurt in a staged sport.


worse they perform in front of nobody and make next to nothing to voluntarily disfigure themselves.


----------



## dele

bigbuxxx said:


> you sound like a super cool guy irl ...


Someone apparently is about 20 years old, a junior in college, and hasn't been laid in 6 months.

Seriously, this whole site is newfags now.


----------



## bigbuxxx

i'm 31, married, with an 8 yr old. i'm not sure how you can say that when you're not open to the fact people are different and don't hold your opinion on death matches and therefore need to fuck off. but yeah i'm the 20 year old


----------



## McQueen

Gonna check that match out, trust Dele's judgement.

Link doesn't work though.


----------



## antoniomare007

yo dele, is there anything worth the watch in Big Japan's Tag League?


----------



## dele

antoniomare007 said:


> yo dele, is there anything worth the watch in Big Japan's Tag League?


Kasai/Numazawa vs Sekimoto/Okabayashi was awesome. Three of the four broke in together, so it's really fun.

Masada/Ito vs Miyamoto/Isami was fun. Good tag main event that got the audience going.

Y Sasaki/Shinobu vs Devon Moore and Nick Mondo's biggest fan was pretty fun as well.


----------



## antoniomare007

good looks.

was 045 Junkies vs Sekimoto/Okabayashi at the level of their match from November of last year?. I loved that one.


----------



## Chismo

Jack Evans 187 said:


> If you wanna wait for the DVDs, Enter The Dragon 2011 and Freedom Fight 2011 are must haves imo. That's all you _need_ to see from them this year.
> 
> *JoeRulz*, did you watch CIMA/Yoshino from the same event? Great match there too.


Nah, I had some things to do during that (and Ronin vs. Tozawa & Hulk) match. I heard it was an amazing match. Is it available in multimedia?


----------



## seabs

antoniomare007 said:


> good looks.
> 
> was 045 Junkies vs Sekimoto/Okabayashi at the level of their match from November of last year?. I loved that one.


*No. I didn't care much for it personally but it wasn't by any means bad.*


JoeRulz said:


> Nah, I had some things to do during that (and Ronin vs. Tozawa & Hulk) match. I heard it was an amazing match. Is it available in multimedia?


*Wait, didn't you order the show on iPPV? Don't you get to keep the video to watch on demand once you've ordered the live show?*


----------



## Chismo

Seabs said:


> *No. I didn't care much for it personally but it wasn't by any means bad.*
> 
> 
> *Wait, didn't you order the show on iPPV? Don't you get to keep the video to watch on demand once you've ordered the live show?*


Have no time for that, tbh...


----------



## Cactus

*Dragon Gate 16/9/2011 (No Ropes Match)*
Akira Tozawa vs YAMATO
_Well, at least I found out DG isn't my cup of tea. I wasn't too impressed with this match although the match itself was a cool idea. The ref really hurt this match. Whenever he went for a count, he'd pause during the 2 count, just so the wrestlers can kick out. I really don't see what all the jazz is about. _
***3/4*


----------



## Bubz

So are there any great singles matches from DG or DGUSA this year I need to see? I've only seen SHINGO/Tozawa and I wasn't feeling that match much at all even though I love both guys. I'm not really one for DG tag's but if there are any that anyone thinks are must watch then I'll give them a go.


----------



## Corey

Bubz said:


> So are there any great singles matches from DG or DGUSA this year I need to see? I've only seen SHINGO/Tozawa and I wasn't feeling that match much at all even though I love both guys. I'm not really one for DG tag's but if there are any that anyone thinks are must watch then I'll give them a go.


BxB Hulk vs. Akira Tozawa (United: Finale or United we Stand) ****1/4

CIMA vs. Johnny Gargano (Open The Southern Gate) ****

Open The Brave Gate Title: PAC vs. Akira Tozawa (Mercury Rising) ***3/4
Open The Freedom Gate Title: YAMATO vs. Austin Aries (Mercury Rising) ***3/4

Open The Freedom Gate Title: YAMATO vs. Akira Tozawa (Open The Ultimate Gate) ***3/4

Austin Aries vs. Johnny Gargano (Fearless) ***3/4

Masato Yoshino vs. Ricochet (Enter The Dragon) ***3/4
Elimination: Gargano, Taylor, & Toshino vs. CIMA, Brodie, & Aries (Enter The Dragon) ****1/4
Open The Freedom Gate Title: YAMATO vs. PAC (Enter The Dragon) ****

BxB Hulk vs. Johnny Gargano (Bushido: Code of the Warrior) ***3/4+

CIMA vs. Masato Yoshino (Freedom Fight) ***3/4
PAC vs. Ricochet (Freedom Fight) ****1/2
Open The Freedom Gate Title: YAMATO vs. Johnny Gargano (Freedom Fight) ****1/4


----------



## Chismo

YAMATO/Hulk No Ropes match (from Revolt!)is my MOTY so far.

HMs from USA: CIMA & Richochet vs PAC & Masato Yoshino (WOTR), YAMATO/CIMA (Untouchable), Gargano, Yoshino & Swann vs CIMA, Lee & Aries (Enter The Dragon, 2YA)...


----------



## Bubz

Cheers fellas, I'll be checking them out, maybe watch a few tonight.


----------



## dk4life

BxB Hulk vs. Akira Tozawa from United: Finale and CIMA vs. Johnny Gargano from Open the Southern Gate are both matches to watch from this year, and the only 2 matches I remember being standouts, however Hulk/Tozawa was an AWESOME match, maybe my match of the year until I watch the 3 most recent events (YAMATO/Tozawa sounds fantastic as does YAMATO/Gargano) will wait to they get released on DVD....which will be next year sometime, they don't have the replays on WWN...do they?


----------



## seabs

Bubz said:


> So are there any great singles matches from DG or DGUSA this year I need to see? I've only seen SHINGO/Tozawa and I wasn't feeling that match much at all even though I love both guys. I'm not really one for DG tag's but if there are any that anyone thinks are must watch then I'll give them a go.


*I posted a list of essential DG Japan viewing in the Puro thread yesterday so check that for the Japan stuff.*



Cactus said:


> *Dragon Gate 16/9/2011 (No Ropes Match)*
> Akira Tozawa vs YAMATO
> _Well, at least I found out DG isn't my cup of tea. I wasn't too impressed with this match although the match itself was a cool idea. The ref really hurt this match. Whenever he went for a count, he'd pause during the 2 count, just so the wrestlers can kick out. I really don't see what all the jazz is about. _
> ***3/4*


*Not the best match to watch imo to base your judgement off Dragon Gate on. Again I'd recommend that list.*


----------



## Bubz

*Tanahashi vs Nakamura (NJPW 19/9/11)*
I really liked the start with the mat and technical stuff going on, they managed to keep it interesting and believeable. The middle portion of the match was great with some great limb work going on and Tanhashi sold his arm really well, Nakamura didn't do as good of a job selling his leg long term though, but Tana kept going back to it and when he did he sold it well. The finishing stretch was good, and there was an amazing spot where Tana hit a tiger suplex (I think), Nakamura kicked out and while Tana was having a fit because he didn't get the win he got kneed in the back of the head! They did go back to trading submissions in the finishing stretch including an awesome armbar from Nakamura and Tana turning it into a cloverleaf. I wish the limb work had more to do with the finish, but I've come to expect that from a Tanahashi match, he works the leg and nothing ever comes from it and he always wins with the same combo of moves. Nakamura is fucking awesome though, his swag is off the charts and he's a great seller (could have done better long term in this match though). I cringed at moments, there was one point were it looked like Nakamura legit kneed Tana in the face and he looked pissed. Great match.
*****1/4*


----------



## Cactus

Seabs said:


> *I posted a list of essential DG Japan viewing in the Puro thread yesterday so check that for the Japan stuff.*
> 
> 
> 
> *Not the best match to watch imo to base your judgement off Dragon Gate on. Again I'd recommend that list.*


True. After I downloaded it, I found out I got the wrong match. I wanted the DGUSA No Ropes Match that happened recently. Will give that match a watch some when though.


----------



## Corey

dk4life said:


> BxB Hulk vs. Akira Tozawa from United: Finale and CIMA vs. Johnny Gargano from Open the Southern Gate are both matches to watch from this year, and the only 2 matches I remember being standouts, however Hulk/Tozawa was an AWESOME match, maybe my match of the year until I watch the 3 most recent events (YAMATO/Tozawa sounds fantastic as does YAMATO/Gargano) will wait to they get released on DVD....which will be next year sometime,* they don't have the replays on WWN...do they?*


Yes sir, they do.


----------



## Zatiel

Got to say, even now at the end of the year, Masato Yoshino Vs. Don Fuji is bad ass. Certainly one of my favorite matches anywhere all year. They're such different bodytypes and approaches to wrestling, but Fuji really hustled to fight him, and went for higher-impact or top-rope versions of his offense for some positively bonkers near-falls at the end. Fuji has been a lot better this year, and this is best singles performance in many years. It's the only Yoshino defense I enjoyed, but I enjoyed the heck out of it.


----------



## smitlick

PWG All Star Weekend 8 Night 1
Steen/Tozawa vs Generico/Ricochet
****1/4


----------



## seabs

*Averno vs La Mascara - Mask vs Mask Match - CMLL 17.06.2011*
_Had this on disc for a few months now and I've been meaning to watch it for weeks now but I finally did yesterday. I'm not a massive lucha fan but even I thought this was really good. They worked a really good main event style match and the crowd was great throughout it. Averno was superb and got his heel character over terrificly well. 1st fall coming early on after Averno smashed Mascara over the head with some object while he was going for an early suicide dive was an awesome start. Babyface working from behind is always good and even more so in a 2/3 falls match. 2nd fall comes quite soon after the start too and it worked. Getting the first two falls out of the way early on really helped the match from my point of view as the final fall got loads of time and allowed them to build loads of drama up. Wrestling was really good too and as you'd expect from a major lucha match you get lots of dives but they were all really good. There's a super bossy spot where Averno catches Mascara diving off the apron and powerbombs him into the ring post which looked amazing. Only thing that bothered me was the slow 3 counts but you get that with lucha matches. For me they just really kill the whole concept of a near fall when you take like 5 seconds for a 2 and a half count as it just kills the drama that a quick roll up pin creates. Still though, great match and I don't see why you should have to be a lucha fan to enjoy this._

******

*Daisuke Sekimoto & Yuji Okabayashi vs Abdullah Kobayashi & Masato Inaba - BJW 11.01.2011*
_Maybe not as much of a MOTYC but a super fun match which is also really fucking good. 1st half is kinda just there but then the second half is brilliant. Daisuke and Yuji are as awesome as they were in everything else they were in during the first half of 2011 and Abby is a brilliant second to them. They have some super spots with Abby in the second half of the match which really made the match. _

****3/4*


----------



## smitlick

PWG All Star Weekend 8 Night 2

El Generico vs Eddie Edwards
****

PWG World Tag Titles
The Young Bucks vs Generation Next
****1/4

Akira Tozawa vs Chris Hero
****1/4

PWG World Title
Claudio Castagnoli vs Low Ki
****


----------



## Sephiroth

_WWE Survivor Series 2011_
*WWE Championship*: Alberto Del Rio(c) vs. CM Punk - ***** 1/4*

Not a 4* match, but everything from the introductions to the crowd and the ending, this match was phenomenal imo.


----------



## bigbuxxx

Ziggy vs Morrison actually was a 4 star imo. punk/adr was really good to.


----------



## Cactus

Punk vs Del Rio: ******


----------



## Bubz

*Survivor Series*

Ziggler/Morrison ****1/4* (really fun opener)
SS Elimination match ****1/2* (thought it was fucked after Cara got hurt but they saved it. Cody was the star)
Punk/Del Rio ****** (Great match, Punk was awesome)
Cena/Rock vs Truth/Miz ****1/2* (mainly for The Rock and the crowd)

Really good PPV. The Rock looked pretty phenomenal in the ring, never would have thought it was 8 years. It was just an awesome thing to see him back in there and getting amazing reactions out of the crowd.

The crowd was pretty great all night, and Punk was the second most over after The Rock which was awesome to see and the match delivered too.


----------



## bigbuxxx

Bubz said:


> The Rock looked pretty phenomenal in the ring, never would have thought it was 8 years.


i believe it was 7. at 8 you lose everything


----------



## jawbreaker

Caught the last few minutes of Punk/Del Rio and thought it was fucking awful. The crowd was really hot, but I can't get over the fact that WWE-style finishes are the absolute worst thing.

Then I watched the entrances for the Rock/Cena vs. Miz/Truth match and it was pretty cool. Didn't feel like watching the match though so I watched the Eagles-Giants game until I fell asleep.


----------



## Bubz

It was worth watching because The Rock looked great out there. He pulled off some awesome looking shit that I was in awe of because I expected at least some ring rust but there was non at all to be seen. The match itself wasn't really anything special though.


----------



## KingKicks

***1/4-***1/2 for Punk/ADR. I'll be rewatching it in a sec but I thought it was a pretty enjoyable match throughout.

The main event I didn't find anything special but the first couple of minutes with Rock in the ring were great.


----------



## starship.paint

Bubz said:


> So are there any great singles matches from DG or DGUSA this year I need to see? I've only seen SHINGO/Tozawa and I wasn't feeling that match much at all even though I love both guys. I'm not really one for DG tag's but if there are any that anyone thinks are must watch then I'll give them a go.


Dragon Gate Japan

*Infinity*
i208 - Mochizuki / Fujii vs Saito / Horiguchi
i215 - CIMA / Ricochet / Kid vs Hulk / Yokosuka / PAC
i217 - CIMA / Ricochet / Kid vs Takagi / Kong / KAGETORA
i221 - CIMA / Ricochet / Kid vs Yoshino / Hulk / PAC
i222 - Mochizuki vs Kanda
i223 - Mochizuki / YAMATO / Yoshino / Gamma / Takagi vs CIMA / Tozawa / Doi / Hulk / Kanda
i224 - YAMATO / Yoshino / Gamma vs Doi / Hulk / CIMA
i230 - Mochizuki / YAMATO vs Tozawa / Hulk
i233 - K-ness / Yokosuka vs Iwasa / Arai vs Saito / Horiguchi (Elimination Match)
i234 - Tozawa / Hulk / Doi / Kong vs YAMATO / Yoshino / KAGETORA / Takagi (Elimination Match)
i238 - Mochizuki vs Tozawa

*Dead or Alive PPV
*Dragon Kid © / Ricochet / Gamma / CIMA vs Takagi © / KAGETORA / Kong/ Iwasa (Captain’s Fall Survival Elimination Match)
Mochizuki vs YAMATO

*Kobe PPV
*CIMA / Ricochet vs Kid / PAC

*Gate of Destiny PPV*
Takagi vs YAMATO vs KAGETORA vs Kong vs Hulk vs Tozawa (Mask vs Hair escape the cage match]

I haven't watched some of the PPV matches and some Infinity matches too


----------



## Bubz

Cheers for the DG rec's (Y)


----------



## FITZ

I had a blast being at MSG last night and had an amazing time but I'm not sure if there are any matches that I would mention here. Punk/ADR was really good but sort of one step below me calling it a MOTYC. The main event was awesome too but that control segment was just too long for me.


----------



## Bubz

TaylorFitz said:


> I had a blast being at MSG last night and had an amazing time but I'm not sure if there are any matches that I would mention here. Punk/ADR was really good but sort of one step below me calling it a MOTYC. The main event was awesome too but *that control segment was just too long for me.*


I felt kind of bad for Cena, all he did the whole match was get worked over by Miz and Truth for what seemed like ages, but it did lead to a great hot tag I guess.


----------



## KingCrash

That Survivor Series main seemed like a below-average tv match with The Rock being great as bookends. Don't know if anything could have helped that with the way they booked Awesome Truth and no one is going to want to see Cena when the Rock's right on the apron.


----------



## Fighter Daron

Punk Vs Del Río was MOTYC legit material, a lot of limbwork and psichology ****1/4

Lol at that being awful and WWE finishes being shitty.


----------



## jawbreaker

I only saw maybe the last four minutes of the match so I can't comment on the psychology, but the finishing stretch was some absolutely awful shit. I cannot tolerate the bullshit where wrestlers do things that make no sense to set up their opponent's finisher. It's most obvious in WWE, especially in big matches, but it happens all over the place and I hate it wherever I see it.


----------



## Ali Dia

Punk/Del Rio - ***1/2: pretty good, but something about Del Rio on offense bugs me. Almost in the vain of Eddie Edwards disjointedness.

Rock/Cena v Miz/Truth: **3/4: felt like a tv or house show match with a really drawn out work over period. And it doesn't help that Truth and Miz are boring on offense.

Morrison/Ziggler: ***: nice opener


----------



## EffectRaven

ROH Wrestling 11/19/11

Davey Richards vs. Kyle O'Reilly ******

Not sure if anyone else thought this was awesome as I did but I freaking loved it. Amazing counters and action in this one, I also like how they incorporated the sportsmanship/friendship aspect into the match. Ending was weak thought. O'Reilly is going to be a major player in the company one day


----------



## Fighter Daron

jawbreaker said:


> I only saw maybe the last four minutes of the match so I can't comment on the psychology, but the finishing stretch was some absolutely awful shit. I cannot tolerate the bullshit where wrestlers do things that make no sense to set up their opponent's finisher. It's most obvious in WWE, especially in big matches, but it happens all over the place and I hate it wherever I see it.


Explain why it was awful. First the had a GREAT exchange of counter-strikes, then Del Río catches Punk with the Jugigatame(He was punishing that arm since monday night), then Punk reaches the ropes, tries to catch Río for the GTS, but he can't charge it(because of the bad arm), and a roll-up by Alberto, Punk escapes, Overhead Roundhouse Kick, ADR kicks out and Anaconda Vise.

What's the problem?


----------



## jawbreaker

Del Rio mindlessly running at Punk so that Punk can pick him up for the GTS is the one that stands out in my mind. Just lying there so Punk could lock in the Anaconda Vice is another. Punk being unable to hold Del Rio on his shoulders, but having no problem with the Vice was a bit of a head scratcher.

My problem isn't with the spots so much as how they were linked, which was really poor and has been a trend in just about ever big WWE match I've seen this year that doesn't involve Christian.


----------



## Fighter Daron

I'm ok in the other two(though I don't see them that important), but the transition from the pinfall into the Anaconda Vice was like 5 seconds, that was great.


----------



## geraldinhio

Punk vs Ziggler was > Punk vs Alberto IMO .

*CM Punk vs Dolph Ziggler . RAW*
What a great TV match . An Awesome back and fourth man with Ziggler coming out looking as a star . I really hate how they call him a former world champion though , hopefully there's another reign in the near future. Anyway Punk and Ziggler were both on great form . Some great explosive offence and exchenges from both men , Ziggler's bumping and selling in perticular was gold. Little both towards the end but they made it work . Crowd was awesome too which always helps . First Raw match I've watched in quite some time and I wasn't dissapointed one bit. ****1/4


----------



## Bubz

Yeah, Punk/Ziggler was just as good as Punk/Del Rio. Ziggler is a goddamn show stealer! He looks like a star every single time he goes out there, if he isn't a full on main eventer by the middle of next year something is wrong.


----------



## Corey

I'm holding out on TV matches wil the Best of Raw/Smackdown set comes out. Hoping that Punk/Ziggler match and Orton/Christian's Cage match make the cut.


----------



## seabs

*Wouldn't call either **** territory but yeah Ziggler/Punk was waaaaaaay better than Punk/Del Rio, even with the botches. *


----------



## geraldinhio

Seabs said:


> *Wouldn't call either **** territory but yeah Ziggler/Punk was waaaaaaay better than Punk/Del Rio, even with the botches. *


I'd find it very hard to not give both matches around **** territory.  Easily one of the RAW TV matches this year.


----------



## Fighter Daron

Ziggler is the new Michaels.


----------



## geraldinhio

No , John Morrison is the new Shawn Michaels. :side:

*Chris Hero vs Willie Mack PWG BOLA*

I know I left it late not to watch it. Holy fuck what a fun match . It's been summed up numerous times so I won't say much other than Willie Mack is a star and it's better than his great match with Roddy. Hopefully his match with Davey is as good or better.
****1/4


----------



## Fighter Daron

geraldinhio said:


> No , John Morrison is the new Shawn Michaels. :side:


Really?, are you serious, bro?


----------



## seancarleton77

I don't believe Michaels was as good as Dolph at the point in his career that Ziggler is at now. Ziggler isn't the new Shawn Michaels, he's the first Dolph Ziggler. #FollowThat


----------



## geraldinhio

Fighter Daron said:


> Really?, are you serious, bro?


Oh wow , I don't think you understood the use of the :side: face after the post , maybe I wasn't clear though.

Anyway Dolph is an immense talent , who's improving leaps and bounds and now is easily one of the best in ring talents WWE has. I just think he has to find himself in terms of his charcter , his mic skills seem to be improving though. I'd like to see him without Vicky too , would be intresting .Not sure how that would turn out though .


----------



## seancarleton77

Vickie Guerrero has worn out her welcome. She's the only part of Ziggler matches I can't stand, though she improves that hack Swagger's matches.


----------



## Fighter Daron

seancarleton77 said:


> I don't believe Michaels was as good as Dolph at the point in his career that Ziggler is at now. Ziggler isn't the new Shawn Michaels, he's the first Dolph Ziggler. #FollowThat



Well, Michaels with Ziggler's age had already had classic matches against Ramon and Hart.


----------



## seancarleton77

Fighter Daron said:


> Well, Michaels with Ziggler's age had already had classic matches against Ramon and Hart.


Yes. But he wasn't ready, even in early 96, Michaels started to become great when he faced Mankind, and he didn't hit his prime until 05 or 06.


----------



## Yeah1993

How can one come the conclusion that Shawn Michaels peaked in 2005/06? I can understand 05 if you liked the Angle stuff and the match with Shelton Benjamin (which I don't), but his 06 is horrid and not all because of his opponents. No idea how that competes with him being invoved in a top 3 (at worst) career matches of Mick Foley, Kevin Nash, Sycho Sid and Davey Boy Smith in 96. Especially since the last three aren't capable of a great match on their own.


----------



## SandyRavage

Back on topic, Devitt vs Ibushi at wrestle kingdom is hands down my favourite match of the year so far


----------



## TelkEvolon

SandyRavage said:


> Back on topic, Devitt vs Ibushi at wrestle kingdom is hands down my favourite match of the year so far




I love a random "hands down MOTY".


----------



## bigbuxxx

My top puro matches tied at ****3/4 are
Kojima vs Tanahashi @ WK V
Tanahashi vs Goto on 6/18

Devitt vs Ibushi @ WK V wouldn't even be in my top 50 if I made a puro list that big. I know lots love it but I found it hard to sit through and I've tried 3 or 4 times.


----------



## Bubz

I wasn't the biggest fan, when you've seen one Devitt/Ibushi match you've seen em' all pretty much.


----------



## jawbreaker

just gonna throw it out there that Steen/Tozawa vs. Yuma/Goodtime is my MOTY still.

haven't seen BOLA or Akiyama/SUWAMA yet though.


----------



## Chismo

Copy/Paste from a TNA thread:

*Fortune vs. Immortal (Lockdown 2011)*

Probably the best Lethal Lockdown ever, and the most underrated MOTYC. Ric FUCKING Flair was the BOSS, the motherfucking BOSS right there. Seriously, rewatch this shit, it was awesome. The most important thing is that everything made sense, even that Hardy/Daniels fight on top of the cage (Hardy's "Fuck this shit!" look before that was priceless,:lmao. This was a shitload of fun. My TNA MOTY, better than the Contract Match.
*****1/4*


----------



## Fighter Daron

Devitt/Ibushi was pretty good, but as it was said, watched one, watched all.


----------



## Henry Hill

seancarleton77 said:


> Yes. But he wasn't ready, even in early 96, Michaels started to become great when he faced Mankind, and he didn't hit his prime until 05 or 06.


He was probably in his physical prime in 97 although I think he became a more diverse and engaging performer during his second run. He brought tons more emotion and was first rate in his ability to draw empathy from crowds during his matches. From early 07 up to his retirement I think he displayed the best all round work of his career.


----------



## antoniomare007

Seabs said:


> *Daisuke Sekimoto & Yuji Okabayashi vs Abdullah Kobayashi & Masato Inaba - BJW 11.01.2011*
> _Maybe not as much of a MOTYC but a super fun match which is also really fucking good. 1st half is kinda just there but then the second half is brilliant. Daisuke and Yuji are as awesome as they were in everything else they were in during the first half of 2011 and Abby is a brilliant second to them. They have some super spots with Abby in the second half of the match which really made the match. _
> 
> ****3/4*


liiiiiiiiiiiiiiink!


----------



## bigbuxxx

Generico vs Claudio from ?? (not BOLA but the other that is raved about): ****-****1/4. big fan of both guys but really couldn't get into this match.


----------



## Caponex75

You really couldn't get into the match but you gave it 4 stars? Wha :O


----------



## geraldinhio

Caponex75 said:


> You really couldn't get into the match but you gave it 4 stars? Wha :O


This exactly . 

You must be on about their match from Kurt Russelemania .Which was an awesome match. I had it about ****1/2+ and is probably my PWG MOTY and maybe even my MOTY. You just don't see selling and limb work like that anymore.


----------



## Concrete

My MOTY is still Chris Hero vs KENTA. Every time I watch it I am just amazed by it. A close second would be NVC vs El Generico/Ricochet. That match was just bat shit crazy in a good way.


----------



## seabs

antoniomare007 said:


> liiiiiiiiiiiiiiink!


*I'll get to uploading stuff of DVDs I've brought recently when I finish some orders this weekend.*

*Jerry Lawler vs Luke Robinson - NEW Brass City Brawl II*
_Pro wrestling in it's simplest but greatest form. This comes a week or so after Lawler's table spot with Henry and they play off that spot really well. Robinson is a really good cocky heel and he runs through the basic heel 101 playbook in this match but doing something as simple as BEING A HEEL really stands out when nobody else is doing it. He starts out by just doing a load of slams on Lawler's back and is so simple but so effective too when they have meaning and you space them out so each spot is significant. Then Lawler comes back and starts returning the back body drops and it's wonderful. Lawler's back selling is great and Robinson never once targets any other body part and sticks to the game plan perfectly. Lawler comeback ending with piledriver which pleases everyone, the babyface comes from behind after the heel looked dominant and threatening, got in his big spot and everyone went home happy. WRESTLING!_

****3/4*

*Terry Funk vs Jerry Lawler - No Holds Barred - NEW Autumn Ambush 2011*
_Just incredible. Funk is the master of the entire universe in this match and even at his age he's outperforming just about everyone else on the scene. Funk shaking Lawler's hand during his entrance and Lawler looking all perplexed was glorious and tied in really well with Funk's pre match promo where he started praying before turning on Lawler. Amazing brawl. Never once did they decided to do a spot or get their fancy moves in. Just throw each other into stuff and launch chairs at each other. Funk blatantly misses Lawler with one chair he throws at him but it's Funk so it's still amazing. Funk ends up beating the ref up too and taking his pants off because he's a fucking loon and it actually ties in well with the finish. THEY DO A CALLBACK SPOT TO 1981! 30 years later and that match is still so memorable that they're doing callback spots to it in 2011. MY EYE! MY EYE!_

*****1/4*


----------



## antoniomare007

Seabs said:


> *I'll get to uploading stuff of DVDs I've brought recently when I finish some orders this weekend.*


And of course you post a Funk/Lawler review right after writing this...the fuck am I supposed to do now? The wait is gonna kill me










edit: *checks the MOTYC thread* 

*sees Lawler vs Funk* 

*downloads* 

*feels like a junkie getting his fix*

edit 2:



Seabs said:


> *Terry Funk vs Jerry Lawler - No Holds Barred - NEW Autumn Ambush 2011*
> _Just incredible. Funk is the master of the entire universe in this match and even at his age he's outperforming just about everyone else on the scene. Funk shaking Lawler's hand during his entrance and Lawler looking all perplexed was glorious and tied in really well with Funk's pre match promo where he started praying before turning on Lawler. Amazing brawl. Never once did they decided to do a spot or get their fancy moves in. Just throw each other into stuff and launch chairs at each other. Funk blatantly misses Lawler with one chair he throws at him but it's Funk so it's still amazing. Funk ends up beating the ref up too and taking his pants off because he's a fucking loon and it actually ties in well with the finish. THEY DO A CALLBACK SPOT TO 1981! 30 years later and that match is still so memorable that they're doing callback spots to it in 2011. MY EYE! MY EYE!_
> 
> *****1/4*


Man, I almost lost my shit with all the callbacks from their previous matches, they really treated the match as a "feud ender". I had already read about Funk's promo but seeing it was even better, he just finds ways of being awesome despite all his physical problems, and of course Jerry does a great job with his comebacks and his still-best-in-the-business punches. And I think Funk missed Lawler on purpose with that throw.

When Segunda recovers from his coma post-BOLA/Finlay overdose, he's gonna end up like Randy Marsh after weeks without porn when he sees this. 

Oh, if you are into cool moves or flawless execution, this match is not for you.


----------



## Cactus

I give Funk/Lawler *****. It was fun watching this, but I wouldn't say it's great. Both guys can still play their characters to perfection and the pre-match promo is great. The execution and ending really stops me from rating highly. Yes, I wasn't expecting much execution-wise when watching this, but this takes the bucket. The ending was quite silly too. Still, this was a family show and if I took myself and my kids to this, I'm sure we would of both went home happy. 



antoniomare007 said:


> When Segunda recovers from his coma post-BOLA/Finlay overdose, he's gonna end up like Randy Marsh after weeks without porn when he sees this.


Speaking of Segunda, anyone knows where he is at? It feels like ages since I last saw him post.


----------



## Yeah1993

He's a uni student IIRC so it's likey something exam-related.

Lawler and Funk are SOOO good together. I should upload their two matches from 2003 I have because it doesn't look like they're on the net.


----------



## Bubz

Time to rewatch some old Funk/Lawler before that match I think.


----------



## smitlick

PWG Eight

PAC vs Kevin Steen 
****

PWG BOLA 2011

Generico vs Claudio
****1/4

KOW vs Bucks
****

Steen vs Generico
****1/2

ROH Revolution Canada

Edwards vs Hero
****1/2

DGUSA Open The Ultimate Gate 2011
YAMATO vs Akira Tozawa
****1/4


----------



## seancarleton77

Cm Punk vs. Del Rio, anyone?


----------



## antoniomare007

nah. good tv match but nothing more than that.


----------



## Fighter Daron

antoniomare007 said:


> nah. good tv match but nothing more than that.


Yep.


----------



## jawbreaker

*Claudio Castagnoli vs. Chris Hero, PWG Eight*

Checked the ratings this match got in the star ratings thread and was shocked that nobody gave it over ***3/4. The opening stretch was overly long and moderately pointless, but when things picked up they really picked up. Not in a pace way, that stayed pretty slow, but it suddenly became a whole lot more interesting when Claudio hit the dragon screw in the ropes on Hero. That started a workover that was absolutely great, particularly on Hero's part. I can't remember the last time I saw Hero play face but he's absolutely great at it and I'd love to see more of it. His selling here was absolutely immaculate, probably beating out Generico at KRR2 for selling job of the year. Claudio wasn't as great as Hero here mannerisms-wise, but his offense was great and everything targeting the knee was awesome. Lots of cool shit you don't normally see and it all makes lots of sense.

The knee work, and Claudio continually going to the single leg crab had me convinced that when he finally got the Neutralizer, the match would be over. And then he gets the Neutralizer, and I think "okay, that's it". Hero struggles but Claudio pulls him back to the center, and I'm even more convinced that this is the finish. But then Hero somehow gets to the ropes and I can't believe it. Nearfall of the year right there. Absolutely perfect execution, and it was built beautifully. Then when Claudio gets the Neutralizer again a couple minutes later, he lifts him off the ground and Hero taps immediately. Great finish that you could see coming, but it still looked really cool and made perfect sense in the story of the match.

The other thing I loved about this match was that the submission holds and counters felt realistic. Nothing seemed overly choreographed, there was always a struggle. They did the little things right the whole way through: if Hero left his knee unprotected, Claudio would go after it, if Claudio let his guard down, Hero would have some kind of strike ready. This is a match I want everyone who enjoyed Richards/Edwards at BITW to go watch, because they never got the pace past "moderate" but they didn't need to to keep it interesting, nor did they need to yell out their characters' motivations for them to sink in, nor did they have all kinds of flashy reversals or big impressive moves, it was just a wrestling match that was believable and logical, and it was one of the most compelling ones I've ever seen.

*****3/4*

updated MOTY list:

1. Castagnoli vs. Hero, Eight, ****3/4
2. Steen/Tozawa vs. Goodtime/Yuma, All Star Weekend 8, Night 2, ****1/2
3. Suzuki vs. Nakajima, 3/1 NOAH, ****1/2
4. Hidaka vs. Sekimoto, 1/1 ZERO-1, ****1/4
5. Castagnoli vs. Generico, Kurt RussellReunion 2, ****1/4
6. Suzuki vs. Nakajima, 9/23 NOAH, ****1/4
7. Strong vs. Mack, Card Subject to Change 3, ****1/4
8. Strong/Shelley vs. Generico/Ricochet, Eight, ****1/4
9. Steen/Tozawa vs. Generico/Ricochet, All Star Weekend 8, Night 1, ****1/4
10. Goto vs. Tanahashi, NJPW 6/18, ****1/4
11. Strong vs. Briscoe, Only the Strong Survive, ****
12. Steen vs. Pac, Eight, ****
13. Cena vs. Punk, Money in the Bank, ****
14. Strong vs. Edwards, Death Before Dishonor IX, ****
15. Hero vs. Edwards, Revolution Canada, ****


----------



## antoniomare007

*Daisuke Sekimoto & Yuji Okabayashi vs SUWAMA & Takumi Soya - REAL WORLD TAG LEAGUE, Day 1
*
Very good tag match, it builds very slowly but I was happy with the payoff in the end. The first 3/4 of the match are mostly about Daisuke and Yuji beating the leaving hell out of Soya, who does a good job at being the FIP (specially in his hope spots). Then SUWAMA gets in and we get a great finishing stretch. LOVED Daisuke not being able to deadlift SUWAMA and asking Okabayashi for help, but Oka is too tired and gives the young Soya enough time to interfere, save his partner and lead us to the ending.

****-****1/4

link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4TA3U5-0WZg


----------



## Caponex75

I enjoyed Richards/Edwards but Claudio/Hero bored me to tears. You cut down that match twenty minutes and I probably would of liked it but there was some retarded shit in there. Cure for insomnia I say.


----------



## jawbreaker

That's what a lot of people keep saying, and I really don't get it. They went 37 minutes, and yeah, the first ten or so were kind of aimless, but after that it was damn near flawless. Cut that opening portion down to about five minutes and I would have no problem giving the match five stars. I don't understand how someone could find anything after Claudio dislocates Hero's wrist boring unless they weren't paying attention.

Just because it's slow and long doesn't mean it's bad by any means. That's one of the attitudes that has become prevalent here lately that I really don't get. There are some wrestlers who shouldn't be wrestling over 20 mins the way they currently wrestle, but that definitely doesn't mean no one should, and if there's two guys in the world today who can work 40+ minutes and have it tell a good story the whole way through, it's Claudio and Hero.


----------



## seabs

*Daisuke Sekimoto & Yuji Okabayashi vs Manabu Soya & Seiya Sanada - AJPW 23.10.2011*
_Not as great as I and III but definitely a considerable step up on the other 2. First half of the match was brilliant with the champs looking dominant and them having a great workover sess on Sanada. Sanada in peril is something that I'll always enjoy. Double suplex spot to take Soya out for an extended period was great and worked a treat in making a monster double team look like a monster double team as well as setting the scene for their control segment. None of the other 4 matches really entered overkill territory and that's what I loved so much amongst other things about their 3/21 match is that the finish was simple but I guess they were catching up on lost big finish time from their previous matches in this. Was great up to a point but then they crossed the line and went about 3-5 minutes longer than they should have without any structure. At least they didn't start dropping each other on their heads and have the team who were winning kick out of loads of shit and sell nothing. I can live with overkill as long as they don't do loads of that. All their moves looked great though and the crowd were well into it so it was a brilliant first half followed by a second half that went a bit too long but was still fun throughout._

*****+*


----------



## bigbuxxx

jawbreaker said:


> That's what a lot of people keep saying, and I really don't get it.


to be fair most give cena and punk five stars so i'm going to assume you see things with a different eye than others.


----------



## Corey

I haven't seen Claudio/Hero yet, but I'm pretty sure I'll be agreeing with Jawbreaker on it because I fucking loved their ASW match and can't see how it wouldn't be better with a top rope in tact.


jawbreaker said:


> 2. Steen/Tozawa vs. Goodtime/Yuma, All Star Weekend 8, Night 2, ****1/2


That on the other hand, I have no idea how people liked that match so much. Terrible structure, no flow, extended squash.


----------



## antoniomare007

Seabs said:


> *Daisuke Sekimoto & Yuji Okabayashi vs Manabu Soya & Seiya Sanada - AJPW 23.10.2011*
> _Not as great as I and III but definitely a considerable step up on the other 2. First half of the match was brilliant with the champs looking dominant and them having a great workover sess on Sanada. Sanada in peril is something that I'll always enjoy. Double suplex spot to take Soya out for an extended period was great and worked a treat in making a monster double team look like a monster double team as well as setting the scene for their control segment. None of the other 4 matches really entered overkill territory and that's what I loved so much amongst other things about their 3/21 match is that the finish was simple but I guess they were catching up on lost big finish time from their previous matches in this. Was great up to a point but then they crossed the line and went about 3-5 minutes longer than they should have without any structure. At least they didn't start dropping each other on their heads and have the team who were winning kick out of loads of shit and sell nothing. I can live with overkill as long as they don't do loads of that. All their moves looked great though and the crowd were well into it so it was a brilliant first half followed by a second half that went a bit too long but was still fun throughout._
> 
> *****+*


lol, I thought the match got better and better as it was progressing. The first half was fine but to me it picked up after Soya made his first appearence. Didn't think they went long nor felt like it was any overkill tbh. Specially considering it was their fifth match against each other this year. It's funny though, I totally agree on your snowflakes rating but totally disagree on what made it so good.

And if you liked Sanada in that match I'm really interested in your thoughts on the RWTL match I just reviewed as I was more into Takumi Soya being a FIP than Sanada. I think both the 23/10 and the 19/11 matches are pretty close in terms of quality but I was more compelled with what Takumi and SUWAMA did with Daisuke & Oka (seriously, this guys need a fucking name!) than Soya/Sanada (who I just can't get into that much). Maybe it's the fact that I've seen the latter work with the Big Japan couple so much already.


----------



## topper1

Jack Evans 187 said:


> That on the other hand, I have no idea how people liked that match so much. Terrible structure, no flow, extended squash.


I still think Jawbreaker was trolling us all :cuss:. It was a fun squash but it was a SQUASH match that no one will remember this time next year.


----------



## jawbreaker

bigbuxxx said:


> to be fair most give cena and punk five stars so i'm going to assume you see things with a different eye than others.


yeah, that's long been established. I don't really expect people to agree with me, but if I can make someone think a bit harder about something and they can make me think a bit harder about something, then maybe we'll both learn a bit and develop a better understanding. that's what message boards are for.



topper1 said:


> I still think Jawbreaker was trolling us all :cuss:. It was a fun squash but it was a SQUASH match that no one will remember this time next year.


I'll remember it at least.

Yeah, it kind of was an extended squash, but it couldn't have worked any other way. It's got one of the best underdog babyface vs. dominant heel stories I've seen in a long time, and it's helped immensely by a couple factors: that it was Goodtime who got the workover, not Yuma, and that the crowd is fucking loving everything Steen does. It makes the RNM look like even bigger underdogs when not only are their opponents bigger, faster, and stronger than them, but every person in the building wants to see them win. And not only that, but the NVC are so much better than the Monsters that they don't even bother isolating the smaller wrestler, they go right for Goodtime, and absolutely fuck him up.

I've said it before, but the image of Johnny Yuma, who is like 5'6, 140, going crazy trying to make a tag while Steen has Goodtime in a camel clutch and Tozawa just poses behind him is amazing, because it encapsulates the character dynamics of the match perfectly. Steen and Tozawa don't give a fuck, they're out there to beat the shit out of a couple guys and entertain the fans, but for the Monsters, this match means everything. Steen beat the shit out of them in January just because he could, they get no respect from anyone, least of all Steen, and this is their big chance. They never at any point fuck around, they are trying their absolute hardest, but Steen and Tozawa are just too good. And then they come close to winning, and the looks on their faces whenever Steen or Tozawa kicks out of something are fantastic.

It drags in a couple places and the structure is kind of messy, but it's the best storytelling I've ever seen in a face vs. face match. I really want to rate it higher than ****1/2, honestly, because the character work is so amazing, but it's got a few pacing and structure flaws that as much as I want to overlook, I can't.

Still my #2 MOTY so far and easily the best at what it does right.


----------



## Fighter Daron

I completely agree with jawbreaker, though I had it at ****, it was extremely funny and smart.


----------



## Kid Kamikaze10

jawbreaker pretty much explained why I loved the match as well. For one side, it was a revenge match and a potential break out match. For the other, it was a squash. And both sides were able to show that in the ring.


----------



## wildpegasus

enlightenedone9 said:


> My MOTY is still Chris Hero vs KENTA. Every time I watch it I am just amazed by it. A close second would be NVC vs El Generico/Ricochet. That match was just bat shit crazy in a good way.


 When and where was KENTA vs Hero? I've gotta see this. Their ROH TV match was incredible. Thanks.


----------



## TelkEvolon

wildpegasus said:


> When and where was KENTA vs Hero? I've gotta see this. Their ROH TV match was incredible. Thanks.


WXW: Genesis In Germany 15.5.11

*Chris Hero vs KENTA*
http://www.fileserve.com/file/XFXwjkx


----------



## Concrete

There you go. Great overall show as well.


----------



## seabs

*Jun Akiyama vs Suwama - AJPW 23.10.2011*
_Not crazy on this one like everyone else seems to be. The comparison to a 90's All Japan main event are kinda true but at the same time this wasn't as intriguing and the action wasn't that strong. I think if this was a ROH main event then some of the "common Indy downfalls" would be highlighted more. The suplexes spot was kinda frustrating but it did serve a purpose. Wasn't a fan of Akiyama kicking out of all of Suwama's big moves and then coming back to win and not really selling the big finishing moves at the end. I liked his back selling early on in the match but he kinda let go of it in the last third of the match which hurt. The match had a really good big match feel to it though and they pulled some big moves out that they wouldn't usually go to like Suwama's dive and the exploder to the floor. Akiyama kicking out of Suwama's last ride powerbomb that has literally beaten everyone was a great near fall but then Akiyama kinda just got back up from it and didn't do it justice afterwards. Crowd wasn't really all that into it until they started doing big spots too and I thought they created a better atmosphere for the tag title match. Not saying it was a bad match because it had some great parts to it but also some bad ones and it had several spells where it wasn't as interesting as I wanted it to be. Felt like they were going for another Kobashi/Akiyama from 2004 and it was a good attempt but they were missing something at the start and at parts in the middle to make it all mesh together into a classic for me._

****3/4*


----------



## dele

BJW 11/22/11 - Tokyo Korakuen Hall

Sekimoto/Okabayashi vs Brahman Bros - ** 3/4

Kasai/Numazawa vs Miyamoto/Isami - ***1/2

Sekimoto/Okabayashi vs Kasai/Numazawa - **** - ****1/4

Seeing Yuji's mom reacting to everything was quite lulzy.

Also lulzy: the crowd wanted no part of Okabayashi or Sekimoto winning and were all about Kasai and Numa. Gotta love the BJW crowd.


----------



## antoniomare007

I was wondering who was that old lady they kept showing...


And yeah, they tried to make Oka this big underdog but Korakuen didn't just wanted to root for Kasai, even though Oka did a great job in the semis and final.

I also found interesting how Shinobu and Yoshihito ended up getting along and it was Hashimoto & Takashi who imploded.

The Death Vegas card looks promising, although I'm not really sure how to feel about Ito vs Abby.


----------



## topper1

Seabs said:


> *Jun Akiyama vs Suwama - AJPW 23.10.2011*
> _Not crazy on this one like everyone else seems to be. The comparison to a 90's All Japan main event are kinda true but at the same time this wasn't as intriguing and the action wasn't that strong. I think if this was a ROH main event then some of the "common Indy downfalls" would be highlighted more. The suplexes spot was kinda frustrating but it did serve a purpose. Wasn't a fan of Akiyama kicking out of all of Suwama's big moves and then coming back to win and not really selling the big finishing moves at the end. I liked his back selling early on in the match but he kinda let go of it in the last third of the match which hurt. The match had a really good big match feel to it though and they pulled some big moves out that they wouldn't usually go to like Suwama's dive and the exploder to the floor. Akiyama kicking out of Suwama's last ride powerbomb that has literally beaten everyone was a great near fall but then Akiyama kinda just got back up from it and didn't do it justice afterwards. Crowd wasn't really all that into it until they started doing big spots too and I thought they created a better atmosphere for the tag title match. Not saying it was a bad match because it had some great parts to it but also some bad ones and it had several spells where it wasn't as interesting as I wanted it to be. Felt like they were going for another Kobashi/Akiyama from 2004 and it was a good attempt but they were missing something at the start and at parts in the middle to make it all mesh together into a classic for me._
> 
> ****3/4*


Should rewatch then come back with the only relistic conclusion that it is better then all the 10 min sprints that you have rated **** this year.

Most of the moves targeted the neck in the match and the build to the end was great and also a great moment. The Selling wasn't pefect but passable and certainly on par with a number of jr matches Ive seen you rate ****

I could understand the overkill statement but in such a big match for the company does that really come into play? Pretty sure they were trying to get across how much the match meant to both and that neither was willing to stay down without throwing everything they had.


----------



## wildpegasus

TelkEvolon said:


> WXW: Genesis In Germany 15.5.11
> 
> *Chris Hero vs KENTA*
> http://www.fileserve.com/file/XFXwjkx


 Thanks for the info


----------



## rafz

finally got some time to go back to PW 

NOAH 08/05
_Kotaro Suzuki vs. Ricky Marvin_
******

Dragon Gate Infinity #219
_Masaaki Mochizuki vs. Shingo _
******

NOAH 25/05
_KENTA & Yoshinobu Kanemaru vs. Kotaro Suzuki & Atsushi Aoki_
*****1/4*

WWE Summerslam
_Christian vs. Randy orton - No Holds Barred_
******
_CM Punk vs. John Cena_
*****1/2*

NOAH 10/10 
_Takashi Sugiura vs. KENTA_
*****1/4*

WWE Survivor Series
_Alberto Del Rio vs. CM Punk_
******


----------



## dele

antoniomare007 said:


> The Death Vegas card looks promising, although I'm not really sure how to feel about Ito vs Abby.


I've been very meh about the whole angle and Ito's title reign. Why they haven't given the belt to Takeda or Kasai is beyond me.


----------



## jawbreaker

getting through my PWG backlog is the most fun I've had in months. 9/17 of my MOTYCs are from PWG, with three from ROH, two NOAH, one NJPW, one ZERO-1, and one WWE making up the rest. another fucking level.

*Kevin Steen vs. Finlay, PWG Battle of Los Angeles*

Finlay is the fucking man. This was about as good as a fifteen minute match can be. Some pretty cool stuff in the opening with Finlay working holds like nobody else, and Steen being Steen. Then the match has a really clear, really nice turning point with Finlay giving in to the fans and climbing the turnbuckles for a dive, but Knox tells him to stop and Steen takes advantage and fucks up Finlay's knee. The workover is then absolutely great with Steen wanting everyone to know that he is beating the shit out of fucking Finlay right now and that he doesn't even think it's a big deal. Finlay of course sold like a fucking champ, even after his offensive moves. My favorite by far was him getting the knees up on a Swanton and then clutching the knee Steen worked over like he needed a stretcher. Finish was great too, played off the earlier work nicely and basically just made sense. No overkill, and they left me not unsatisfied, but still wanting more, which is really what a first-round tournament match should do.

Segunda mentioned some people watching this match being frustrated with Steen's antics, and to me that's really missing the point. Steen's character is the guy who dicks around and tells jokes and doesn't give his opponent any respect. It would have been out of character for Steen to not interact with the fans in the middle of the match, even though he's wrestling Finlay. Steen's character is great because it makes his opponent seem like an underdog even when it's fucking Finlay, which is absolutely invaluable. The RockNES vs. NVC tag wouldn't have been half as good as it was if Steen was a Davey Richards-like mask of intensity instead of the guy who just cold doesn't give a fuck about his opponent, he's going to win and make it look easy. And then there's the times when he breaks it to wrestle Generico, which has even more of an impact in getting over the hatred between them. Basically, if Steen had wrestled any other way in this match I would have been annoyed because it would have been a big break in character, and that's not something I want to see from Steen. Plus the character added a good bit to the match.

*****1/4*

*Claudio Castagnoli vs. El Generico, PWG Battle of Los Angeles*

The previous match was a technical masterpiece that followed a really simple formula and did it really well, with I think two moves more complex than a kick. This one was pretty much the exact opposite, and really, I think there's a lot to be said for a match that's so absolutely crazy with the moves and counters that they have the crowd on their feet for two-thirds of the match. The reversals here were absolutely amazing, and I got caught up in it along with everyone in attendance. Tons and tons of fun and as good a sprint as you're going to see anywhere.

******

Updated list:

1. Castagnoli vs. Hero, Eight, ****3/4
2. Steen/Tozawa vs. Goodtime/Yuma, All Star Weekend 8, Night 2, ****1/2
3. Suzuki vs. Nakajima, 3/1 NOAH, ****1/2
4. Hidaka vs. Sekimoto, 1/1 ZERO-1, ****1/4
5. Steen vs. Finlay, Battle of Los Angeles, ****1/4
6. Castagnoli vs. Generico, Kurt RussellReunion 2, ****1/4
7. Suzuki vs. Nakajima, 9/23 NOAH, ****1/4
8. Strong vs. Mack, Card Subject to Change 3, ****1/4
9. Strong/Shelley vs. Generico/Ricochet, Eight, ****1/4
10. Steen/Tozawa vs. Generico/Ricochet, All Star Weekend 8, Night 1, ****1/4
11. Goto vs. Tanahashi, NJPW 6/18, ****1/4
12. Strong vs. Briscoe, Only the Strong Survive, ****
13. Castagnoli vs. Generico, Battle of Los Angeles, ****
14. Steen vs. Pac, Eight, ****
15. Cena vs. Punk, Money in the Bank, ****
16. Strong vs. Edwards, Death Before Dishonor IX, ****
17. Hero vs. Edwards, Revolution Canada, ****


----------



## seabs

*Daisuke Sekimoto & Yuji Okabayashi vs Suwama & Takumi Soya - AJPW 19.11.2011*
_Not on the level of some of Daisuke/Yuji's best matches this year but it's still really good. Really enjoyed Soya in this, thought he played a great underdog and took a great beating. Loved him still selling his back when he got tagged back in after Suwama's pointless and stupid short run in the middle. They really should have cut that bit of the match out as it achieved nothing and just added some needless time to the match. The match being more Okabayashi heavy than Sekimoto made it feel fresh too. Can't believe that more teams don't do the successive body slams spot, especially in WWE. Finishing run was good too with Suwama coming being fresh. Crowd could have been a little better and they could have cut 3-4 minutes that didn't achieve anything. _

****3/4*


----------



## Bubz

YES! Finally someone realises the brilliance of Hero/Claudio! Thank you jawbreaker, I was starting to think I was insane.


----------



## jawbreaker

I knew there was someone on here who liked it.

Considering it's December already, I think it has a really good shot at ending up my MOTY.


----------



## Last Chancery

jawbreaker said:


> I knew there was someone on here who liked it.
> 
> Considering it's December already, I think it has a really good shot at ending up my MOTY.


Are you talking about their match from All-Star Weekend or EIGHT? Because I really enjoyed their first match, missing rope, 40 minutes and all, but I couldn't get into their rematch from a few shows later. Something about the pacing threw me off, and watching Hero lay prone for much the duration as he sold his leg wasn't very entertaining to me. It seemed too one-sided, I don't know. But their other match, though around 10 minutes too long (if not more) managed to keep me interested. I really enjoyed how they worked around the busted rope and I felt it added a unique, almost rarely seen element to the match.

I'll have to rewatch their EIGHT match to see what all the fuss is about, though.


----------



## Cactus

I'd like to nominate Nagata vs Tanahashi from the recent NJPW PPV. Brilliant stuff. They went for 30 minutes and it only felt like 15. The finishing stretch had me on the edge of my seat. I hope someone else loves it as much as I do. *****1/2*


----------



## bigbuxxx

omg instant fan boi of Tanahashi! Miss the Misawa avatar already. 

Despite my low rating in the puro thread yesterday I sure loved that match. It felt different from what they've done in the past and in a very good way which made it special. After my second viewing I think I'll throw it somewhere between **** and ****1/4. It's a brilliant match for sure.


----------



## Cactus

Fan boy of 'Hashi? Nope. Fanboy of 'Hashi vs Nagata. Totally. I did check out Tanahashi's title matches against Kojima and they aren't exactly special (Still very good though). 

Oh the avatar is only temporary. I needed to switch my Misawa avatar after I made my new sig. Hey, admit it's more pleasing to the eye than Misawa's ugly mug.


----------



## bigbuxxx

It is a much more intense picture. Don't know the sig. cuz I turned those off long ago, they take up too much space.

Saw you gave his WK match against Kojima ***3/4 and once again we're a star apart here. I gave it ****3/4 after seeing it 3 or 4 times. My first run I gave it ***1/4 I think. Their 2/20 match I've watched a few times to and give that ***3/4.


----------



## Cactus

Christ man. What do you love about it so much? 

His second match with Kojima is much better imo. I'd go **** on it.


----------



## Bubz

Last Chancery said:


> Are you talking about their match from All-Star Weekend or EIGHT? Because I really enjoyed their first match, missing rope, 40 minutes and all, but I couldn't get into their rematch from a few shows later. Something about the pacing threw me off, and watching Hero lay prone for much the duration as he sold his leg wasn't very entertaining to me. It seemed too one-sided, I don't know. But their other match, though around 10 minutes too long (if not more) managed to keep me interested. I really enjoyed how they worked around the busted rope and I felt it added a unique, almost rarely seen element to the match.
> 
> I'll have to rewatch their EIGHT match to see what all the fuss is about, though.


Theres not much fuss to be honest, theres only me and jawbreaker I've seen like it that much.

Tana/Kojima @ WK this year was really good, but I wouldn't have it above ****.


----------



## Fighter Daron

Tana/Kojima - Climax Final: *****
Tana/Kojima - Wrestle Kingdom: ****1/2
Tana/Kojima - New Beginning: ****3/4

I fucking love their matches, the pace, the drama, everything is great.


----------



## Concrete

*Johnny Gargano vs. Chuck Taylor- Evolve 9:*****
This match is just short of being a real MOTYC. It has a great story with them knowing each other's moves so well that they know how to counter their partner's signature moves. They were only able to hit their partner's big moves until the ending. If the crowd was better then I would have been happy to give it an even higher rating. It seemed the only time they really popped was when Gargano got DDT onto the stage.


----------



## kwjr86

*Chikara High Noon:*
Eddie Kingston vs Mike Quackenbush : ****-****¼

_This match felt special from the pre match promos to the opening bell to the finish. Kingston's never quit attitude even after quack twisted his knee in 1,000 different directions was awesome. This match is probably the first match to not go outside of the ring, and I loved that part about it, just two guys fighting for the richester prize in the company. It's tough to create that big fight feel but this definitly had it._


----------



## antoniomare007

*KENTA vs Kensuke Sasaki - Global League Day 3*

A good match made very good by a hot Korakuen crowd. Simple story, simple execution and a lot of stiff shots and best of all, it didn't went long.

****


----------



## EffectRaven

Death Before Dishonor IX - Ladder War 3: The Briscoes vs. ANX ****1/4

Death Before Dishonor IX - Roderick Strong vs. Eddie Edwards ****-****1/4


----------



## Fighter Daron

antoniomare007 said:


> *KENTA vs Kensuke Sasaki - Global League Day 3*
> 
> A good match made very good by a hot Korakuen crowd. Simple story, simple execution and a lot of stiff shots and best of all, it didn't went long.
> 
> ****


I think it was better than that, a helluva match.


----------



## antoniomare007

Maybe, I can see someone else loving it. I wasn't into the early parts and even though it made sense for Kensuke to ground KENTA it just didn't grab my attention.


----------



## Concrete

kwjr86 said:


> *Chikara High Noon:*
> Eddie Kingston vs Mike Quackenbush : ****-****¼
> 
> _This match felt special from the pre match promos to the opening bell to the finish. Kingston's never quit attitude even after quack twisted his knee in 1,000 different directions was awesome. This match is probably the first match to not go outside of the ring, and I loved that part about it, just two guys fighting for the richester prize in the company. It's tough to create that big fight feel but this definitly had it._


This match just feels so different compared to what is out there in wrestling. This match wasn't amazing because it had a ton of action. It was amazing because all of the little things they did to put a great story together.


----------



## Fighter Daron

antoniomare007 said:


> Maybe, I can see someone else loving it. I wasn't into the early parts and even though it made sense for Kensuke to ground KENTA it just didn't grab my attention.


And what about all the efforts KENTA did to get Kenskei into the GAME OVER?


----------



## antoniomare007

Good stuff. As I said, it had a simple story and simple execution. That's not something bad, in fact, most of the time the simpler, the better.


----------



## topper1

*** 1/2 for KENTA vs Kensuke didn't do anything for me really.


----------



## Chismo

***1/2 and _"didn't do anything for me"_ don't go together.


----------



## seabs

*They can. You can appreciate a match is technically good even if you didn't enjoy it all that much. Not like he said **** and that he didn't really enjoy it.*


----------



## Caponex75

*Go Shiozaki vs. KENTA for the GHC Heavyweight Championship*

So I saw Fuji & Sugiura early and got to see Shiozaki in the crowd watching(Because the camera loves to catch wrestlers watching). I thought to myself that if this was truly the best match of the night than something is wrong. KENTA came out in old man hair which surprisingly makes him look more gangster and Shiozaki came out just as he always does....but this felt different. This felt special. This felt like when CM Punk meant Cena in Chicago. This felt like when Richards looked across at the ring at his former partner, Eddie Edwards. This felt like it was going to be a match I was going to remember. This match was brilliant like both the formers. First Go gives the obvious clean break and KENTA, being the nice sweet guy that he is, returns the favor by slapping the taste out of his mouth. Then Go absolutely schools him in a strike off. What makes this worse is that you would th KENTA realizes what just happened, they mat wrestle, and Shiozaki practically does the same thing again. So when KENTA is able to push him into the ropes, you are thinking there isn't any options that KENTA really has. So KENTA goes for what usually works and that is using Jack Justice, Peter Pain, Riddle McHurt, and Jason Stateham aka his fist and his feet. He is fighting hard against Go and I mean hard but you get the feeling that is only a forgone conclusion that Go is just going to put him down....that is until KENTA slaps the shit out of him. 

That's right. Go goes down and the tide changes just like that. Then you know what else happens? Mr. Shiozaki decides to bust out with the best selling EVER. Yeah, he doesn't know where he is at and he is just all over the place. KENTA starts working over him like predicted but he pisses Go off. At this point, Go being as messed up as he is isn't going to edge this one out. Then Go punches him in his ear shit just stops for KENTA leading to Go working on him(And still doing that great selling btw). This is basically the theme of the match and it is actually pretty great because it is exactly what this match should be. Needless to say, unlike KENTA & Sugiura where I felt it was going 30 minutes(Though not a bad 30 minutes at all), this felt like 10 mins stretched and it was thanks to the way it did it. This felt like a match only Go and KENTA could do and it was marvelous. I'm going to wait till everyone else watches it but this in my top three. Actually, this will mark the first time that the top 4 matches of MOTY are actually all involving 4 different world titles. This makes me happy. My only issue with the whole match is that Shiozaki's key strikes weren't as key as he wanted but that really doesn't matter in my opinion

No wasted motion
****3/4+ NOTHING LOWER


----------



## starship.paint

Infinity 141

Masaaki Mochizuki, YAMATO, Shingo Takagi, Masato Yoshino & Gamma vs. CIMA, Naruki Doi, Cyber Kong, BxB Hulk & Akira Tozawa - Loser Leaves Unit match ****1/4 - ****1/2

Absolutely crazy action in the last two thirds of the match, and the crowd was losing their minds for the finish. The match totally fit Dragon Gate storylines as well, if you have been following the product. Oh, and YAMATO is awesome.

Backstory: YAMATO was shaved after losing an escape the cage match to Shingo Takagi, KAGETORA (both his stablemates), BxB Hulk, Akira Tozawa and Cyber Kong (his rivals in the other stable). Kong was the last to escape the cage and caused YAMATO to be shaved. During the cage match YAMATO was about to escape, but went back to save Shingo Takagi from a 3-on-1 situation but later on Shingo Takagi escaped and left YAMATO in a 3-on-1 situation. YAMATO's last main feud was with Akira Tozawa, who defeated YAMATO in a DG "hardcore" no ropes no DQ match.


----------



## topper1

JoeRulz said:


> ***1/2 and _"didn't do anything for me"_ don't go together.


I personally don't consider ***1/2 a good rating at all. Anything below that normally get's turned off mid match for me. So the *** 1/2 was my passable made it to the end of the match rating lol


----------



## Mark.

topper1 said:


> I personally don't consider ***1/2 a good rating at all. Anything below that normally get's turned off mid match for me. So the *** 1/2 was my passable made it to the end of the match rating lol


You should probably change whatever your system is for star ratings, if you don't consider ***1/2 matches good. If I give a match that rating, it usually means "very good", since it's a full star above **1/2 aka "average".


----------



## Rah

Mark. said:


> You should probably change whatever your system is for star ratings, if you don't consider ***1/2 matches good. If I give a match that rating, it usually means "very good", since it's a full star above **1/2 aka "average".


Just out of curiosity, what are your equivalents for each of the star ratings? Considering 3.5 stars is "very good", I'm quite tempted to know what you think 4 and 4.5 are, as personally I'd list 4 as "very good", 4.5 as "excellent" and 5 as "perfect".


----------



## Fighter Daron

For me, ***1/2 is very good, **** great, ****1/2 excellent and ***** perfect.


----------



## Concrete

****= Awesome ****1/2=BALLIN' *****= Damn near flawless. That's for this guy anyway.


----------



## jawbreaker

DUD - offensively bad
1/2* - objective waste of time
* - awful
*1/2 - meaningless
** - bad
**1/2 - boring
*** - decent
***1/2 - good
**** - very good
****1/2 - excellent
***** - perfect


----------



## TelkEvolon

****+ are all a "must see".



> ******* - Cream of the crop... The pinnacle.... Instant classic
> 
> *****3/4* - Incredible match
> 
> *****1/2* - Amazing match
> 
> *****1/4* - Awesome match
> 
> ****** - Great match





> ****3/4* - Good match
> 
> ****1/2* - Solid match
> 
> ****1/4* - Fine match
> 
> ***** - Average match


----------



## smitlick

And then theres the negative -**** as well which reaches woeful territory. The ROH Lucha Tag at Big Bang is the only one from memory that i've given a negative rating to. I've watched Russo Booked WCW/TNA and still could make more sense of his shit then i did of this fucking awful match. Its one of the very few times as to where I haven't watched the whole match all the way through.


----------



## Bubz

I always considered ***1/2 to be a really good match. Just proves that everyone can have completely different opinions on matches, even if they rate them the same as eachother.

I need to see KENTA/Go. I usually agree with Capone on most of his match ratings, especially NOAH.


----------



## bigbuxxx

Bubz said:


> Just proves that stars aren't practical for rating matches


fyp. i've got no problem with stars though as i usually check out everything that gets ****+ when i'm bored. using a "classic" "incredible" "boring" etc. system may be better but it will never change so w/e.


----------



## wildpegasus

Caponex75 said:


> *Go Shiozaki vs. KENTA for the GHC Heavyweight Championship*
> 
> .....
> No wasted motion
> ****3/4+ NOTHING LOWER


 I couldn't get my video of this match to play last night. I can't wait to watch this. I've been anticipating it for so long and I knew it was going to be insanely terrific so I'm trying to avoid spoilers for this match. I'll have to read the review later. I saw the star rating though


Speaking of awesome matches, 

KENTA vs Morishima was absolutely freaking incredible. I got totally sucked into that. It's definitely one of my favourite matches of the year. The ending stretch was balls out in every way conievable

KENTA vs Sasaki was really enjoyable

So was Suguira vs Sasaki.

Star ratings for me go something like this

2* Okay
2 1/2 * Good
3 * Very good
3 1/2 * Great
4 * Super
4 1/2 * Epic
5 * Life changing 
5++ No words can describe it


----------



## Bubz

@ bigbuxxx, Don't you use star ratings? I'm pretty sure you do (could be wrong). I personally like the star rating system, but I understand the opinion that it's pretty useless for some people.


----------



## bigbuxxx

I use them to entertain myself and to recommend matches to people (like i explained earlier). 

I have a list I keep of matches rated from 1-5 in entertainment value to me so if I want to watch the most entertaining matches and not the best I know what I'm looking for. Matches like Taker/Mankind in hiac, lesnar/benoit vs angle/haas/shelton, cena/rvd, misawa vs takayama, etc, etc. that aren't 5* but are in entertainment value.


----------



## Cactus

I think the star rating system is a really useful way to recommend stuff, as long as everyone tries to use it the same way, which 95% of people already do, so it's not a huge issue.

DUD = Crap
1/2* = Very Bad
* = Bad
*1/2 = Meh
** = Decent
**1/2 = Average
*** = Good
***1/2 = Very Good
**** = Great (MOTYC)
****1/2 = Excellent (Serious MOTYC)
***** = I Marked like a schoolgirl (Near-enough guaranteed MOTY)


----------



## Bubz

Ah, I see.

*KENTA vs Morishima NOAH 20/11/11*
This was really great, simple, but great. KENTA was trying to strike down Mori with kicks to the leg and it kind or worked, but Mori the monster (who's nowhere near as big as he used to be) is too powerful and he withstands KENTA's strikes. The finishing stretch was so awesome. Not a lot else to say really, but it was a great match and it wasn't that long either. ******

Can't wait to see KENTA/Go and Mori's title match as well.


----------



## Cactus

I'll have to check it out after I finish the recent NOAH show. 

If anyone who's interested in seeing Go vs KENTA, I'd say download the whole show. I've just finished the undercard and I'm about to start Marufuji's return match and I have to say, it's be a blast to watch so far.


----------



## Bubz

Yeah, most of the card looked great. How is the crowd?


----------



## TelkEvolon

Cactus said:


> If anyone who's interested in seeing Go vs KENTA, I'd say download the whole show. I've just finished the undercard and I'm about to start Marufuji's return match and I have to say, it's be a blast to watch so far.


Yeah, I've heard its best to view the whole show.

I'll be watching to with some pals on the weekend. Should be awesome.


----------



## Cactus

Bubz said:


> Yeah, most of the card looked great. How is the crowd?


Attendance wise, it's a bloody disaster. All the upper bleachers were completely empty and it looked like there was barely 3,000 people there (The arena holds 10,000).

Like I've said, I've only seen the undercard so they haven't been overly lively, but it wasn't bad. They reacted to big spots and legends (Kobashi & Kensuke). I've seen worse crowds at NOAH shows.


----------



## Chismo

Can't wait to see the 11/27 show, especially Go/KENTA, especially after Capone's review.


----------



## Bubz

Cactus, where the jesus did you download the show from? Can't find it anywhere yet. probably not looking hard enough knowing me lol.

edit: Doesn't matter, I've found it on youtube now .


----------



## Cactus

Marvin vs Nakajima from the NOAH show needs some love too. As does Suigura vs Marufuji. Both fantastic matches possibly overshadowed by KENTA vs Go.


----------



## Concrete

Eddie Edwards vs. Davey Richards-BITW 2011:****-****1/4
I'm pretty sure this board took away all the wonders this match could have been. But honestly I thought this was a great match that was hyped up to unbelievable proportions by some. The stories they were trying to tell were a little over the place. I wasn't sure if they were going the big brother/little brother root, which I feel was attempted a couple times and wasn't actually carried through, or just deciding who the best in the world really is but I didn't get that either.I felt this match was just a notch above Eddie vs. Roddy from DBDIX and Eddie vs. Davey I. It was certainly good enough to be given a watch.


----------



## Cactus

If I rewatch Richards/Edwards, I know it's going to be nowhere near as good as I originally thought.


----------



## Corey

I rated it ***** on the live watch. I'm not sure if I was getting caught up in the greatness or what but I can definitely say I wasn't even paying attention to a story that might've been told or things like selling. That shit was just awesome wrestling.


----------



## Concrete

I had that exact feeling with Tyler vs Davey. I thought ***** when I first watched it. Though I only knocked it down to ****1/2 so it didn't lose too much charm at all.


----------



## Corey

enlightenedone9 said:


> I had that exact feeling with Tyler vs Davey. I thought ***** when I first watched it. Though I only knocked it down to ****1/2 so it didn't lose too much charm at all.


Yep, I have that a ***** too, but I didn't see it live. It was on dvd.


----------



## FITZ

*Eddie Kingston vs. Mike Quackenbush
*
It felt just like a title match should and the atmosphere was amazing. You could just feel the anticipation building as the match got closer and closer to the end. Quack's offense was perfect and I loved how he would just get more and more frustrated as the fans began to turn on him. The reaction he got to a simple eye poke was great as it literally stunned the crowd. 

Kingston kicking out of a big move at 1 was when of the best uses of the "Fighting Spirit" that I've ever seen in indy wrestling. Usually it just doesn't work but in this case there was so much on the line and Kingston had cut such great promos about he needed the win that it worked perfectly. In fact overall, everything Kingston did was perfect. His selling of the leg was so perfect that if I hadn't seen him wrestle last weekend in CZW I wouldn't be sure if his leg was really hurt or not. 

What's makes this so amazing is that Quack was just as great as Kingston. I've never thought of him as someone that shows a strong character in his matches but his performance here was enough to prove me wrong. From the annoyed look on his face when he got booed for going after the injured leg to when he finally decided to screw the fans and do whatever he could to win Quack was perfect. I wish the DVD release had done a better job of catching all his facial reactions and his general attitude towards the crowd that was turning on him as there was a lot more that he did then what was shown on the DVD. 

The ending of the match was one of those rare moments in wrestling that you just don't get to see enough. By the end of the match I think maybe 3 people weren't behind Kingston. And they weren't just cheering him, they fucking wanted him to win. It's one of those moments where I don't care that the outcome is predetermined. All I know is that I wanted Kingston to win that match more than anything in the world near the end. It's always something special when the ending of a match literally makes everyone pop out of their seats. Well once Kingston hit the back fist everyone was already up yet when the ref made the final count it still looked like everyone popped up. The crowd was jumping up and down in celebration when he won. This is what a big match at the Arena is supposed to feel like. This is right up there with the best matches that I've ever seen live and I think Eddie Kingston made me mark out harder for him then I did for Undertaker/Triple H or Hogan/Sting. 

This is a very special match and something that I was so lucky to be a part of. It lost nothing while watching it on DVD, something that I usually can't say about matches that I loved watching live. It's one of the few occasions where I was truly happy about the outcome of a match. I'm really close to giving this the full 5 but I can even admit that the in ring stuff isn't on the level for a 5* match. But it's really really close to being on that level.
*****3/4*


I really should give that Edwards/Richards match another chance. I liked it live but I literally had my love of wrestling sucked out of me by tag match that went on right before it. I just wanted to go home by the time that match had come on. I hate it when that happens when watching a show too, a terrible match just sucks the life out of you and makes it harder to be interested in the next match. At least if it's a DVD you can just take a break for a while but you just can't do that when you're there live.


----------



## Concrete

Kingston vs. Quack is art that is hard to rate as a wrestling match.


----------



## FITZ

enlightenedone9 said:


> Kingston vs. Quack is art that is hard to rate as a wrestling match.


So true. It's really different from just about all the other MOTYC that are mentioned in this thread. But I enjoyed it more than just about every other match I've seen this year and when I give ratings I base it on how much enjoyment I got from the match. Kingston/Quack is right up there with just every match I've ever seen live to I had to give it a rating comparable to those other great matches I've seen.


----------



## SuperDuperDragon

Kevin Steen vs. El Generico Ladder Match from Steen Wolf was the bees knees, Im not a big star ratings guy, but I know its fucking up there as a MOTYC, at least for me. Insane spots and just some pure intensity.


----------



## wildpegasus

wildpegasus said:


> I couldn't get my video of this match to play last night. I can't wait to watch this. I've been anticipating it for so long and I knew it was going to be insanely terrific so I'm trying to avoid spoilers for this match. I'll have to read the review later. I saw the star rating though
> 
> 
> Speaking of awesome matches,
> 
> KENTA vs Morishima was absolutely freaking incredible. I got totally sucked into that. It's definitely one of my favourite matches of the year. The ending stretch was balls out in every way conievable
> 
> KENTA vs Sasaki was really enjoyable
> 
> So was Suguira vs Sasaki.
> 
> Star ratings for me go something like this
> 
> 2* Okay
> 2 1/2 * Good
> 3 * Very good
> 3 1/2 * Great
> 4 * Super
> 4 1/2 * Epic
> 5 * Life changing
> 5++ No words can describe it


If you have testosterone and emotion, you will love KENTA vs Go. Terrfic match.


----------



## topper1

Marvin vs Nakajima **** 1/4 - **** 1/2 loved this they went a little over kill a few time's and I wish the leg would have played into the finish more but besides that everything was very well done.

KENTA VS GO *** 3/4 - **** Didn't really click with me I enjoyed the ending and thought it made KENTA look good but beside's that I really don't get the hype.

Nagata vs Tani from April and Akiyama's Triple crown win are both far and away my Puro MOTY's at this point.


----------



## Bubz

Yeah, Akiyama/Suwama is my easy pick too. Wasn't too big on Tana/Nagata 3/4 to be honest. It was really good but I didn't think it was amazing or anything.


----------



## Fighter Daron

Goto Vs Tanahashi is for me the best bout this year in Japan.


----------



## kwjr86

SuperDuperDragon said:


> Kevin Steen vs. El Generico Ladder Match from Steen Wolf was the bees knees, Im not a big star ratings guy, but I know its fucking up there as a MOTYC, at least for me. Insane spots and just some pure intensity.


Man I can't wait to see Steen Wolf.


----------



## Bubz

*NOAH 27/11*

*Sugiura vs Marufuji*
Really fun match here, not much story to talk of but it was fun. Marufuji continues to be ridiculously flashy in the ring for no real reason, but because I haven't seen it for a while I enjoyed it. ****1/2*

*Nakajima vs Marvin*
Firts of all, Ricky Marvin has the worst fucking entrance music ever not to mention his hair, and I just want to see him get his face kicked off here. They started off chain wrestling and then it broke down in to strikes, and Nakajima almost makes my wish come true by destroying Marvin with some kicks and a brutal german suplex on his stupid little head, actually I'm surprised his hair didn't STAB A HOLE IN THE RING! Anyway, Nakajima gets some leg work in there and Marvin screams like the little bitch that he is, to be honest he's a good short term seller, I actually believed he was in some real pain there which put the biggest grin across my face . Ricky hit an insane dive to the outside that should be seen, unfortunately he didn't land on the railing. Nakajima goes back to the leg and Marvin makes a comeback and completely forgets everything by hitting all kinds of stupid shit using his legs and knees, totally rendering his great selling from earlier pointless and thus taking away the only redeeming thing he had to make up for his gay music and hair. The finishing stretch was cool and Ricky hit Bison's finisher in a really cool spot that woke the crowd up and made the commentator mark out like crazy which made me mark out, which then made me actually not care if Marvin won it right there. If there wasn't as many sloppy moments (missed superkicks etc) I would have loved this, and Marvin completely fucking off the leg work by hitting double foot stomps, kicks and knee drops all over the place was retarded just like his face. ****3/4*

I'll watch Go/KENTA later tonight.


----------



## Cactus

Ricky Marvin hate? Well, I never...

He's one of my favorite juniors in Japan right now. What don't you like about him?


----------



## antoniomare007

I need a youtube link with Go vs KENTA :side:


----------



## Bubz

He just really annoys me. He is good in the ring though, I just can't quite put my finger on it. Maybe it's his face, I don't know lol.

@antonio, it's not on there yet. ProwrestlingARK has the whole show but that match uploaded on his page, I'm guessing it will be up later tonight. Seabs upped it in the media section.

Actually, just checked parts 1 and 2 are up http://www.youtube.com/user/ProWrestlingARK


----------



## Cactus

antoniomare007 said:


> I need a youtube link with Go vs KENTA :side:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3tBaWE9OSdg&feature=g-all


----------



## antoniomare007

thanks for the link.

Go vs KENTA was your typical NOAH title match. Hit or miss first half (didn't do anything for me, found it very "meh") and GREAT 2nd half. I would have preferred if they structured the match around KENTA being the underdog (Ariake wanted the upset) than the back and forth style they went with, just can't buy KENTA going head to head with the heavyweight champion yet.


----------



## geraldinhio

I'm just about halfway through and I'm not very impressed TBH. What was with Kenta slapping Go across the face with GO selling it like death , after non-selling numerous kicks and elbows. It was bitch slap and Go got up and fell back down , this just made Kenta's kicks and elbow strikes look stupid.

Also I'm not sure , but by the looks of it now Go seems to have just stopped selling his ribs after selling Kenta's knees to the ribs perfectly at the time and clutching them inbetween moves. Going watching the second half now with higher expectations.

[edit] This match did nothing for me to be honest. The two Go To Sleeps was overkill for me , since Go was up throwing lariats and a moonsault not even minutes later. I know non selling is commom in puro but this was too much for me. Hot finishing sequence though , lots of great strikes throughout the match. A lot of flash , not alot of substance. Puro isn't really my thing as you probably got by now .


----------



## seancarleton77

I got Sugiura vs. 'Fuji at ***3/4 - ****. Man, that was fun, especially the stiffness from Sugiura!


----------



## bigbuxxx

geraldinhio said:


> Puro isn't really my thing as you probably got by now .


NOAH painting NJPW in a negative light here. Check out NJPW. I watched the first 15ish minutes of Go/KENTA and turned it off. NOAH is really unwatchable to me.


----------



## KingofMetalFIN

Undertaker vs. Triple H, Wrestlemania 27. It was epic and long match. Everything worked good.


----------



## seabs

*Naomichi Marufuji vs Takashi Sugiura - NOAH 27.11.2011*
_Not a MOTYC but it's a modern Marufuji match that I actually enjoyed and I'll just kinda echo the good things that people have been saying about it but to a lesser extent. Really glad they worked a heavy vs junior match in the way it should be done with the heavy controlling the match bar a few spots here and there when the junior uses his speed to do some flashy moves but then the power of the heavy always comes back to cut him off and they keep going through that until the heavy eventually hits his big move and the match is over. Perfect length for the match too. Neither guy looked weak. The heavy controlled the majority of the match and won and the junior despite losing still looked like he could be competitive even with the heavy. I wish more NOAH matches would be this simple. A lot of Marufuji's shtick is still really coreographed though and there was a series of spots that annoyed me when he reverses the german and lands on his feet which you can see coming a mile away because the other guy always locks his hands like a foot higher up the body, and then the spot where Sugiura goes to suplex him into the corner and he catches himself on the top rope. Shouldn't complain too much though because this was very good._

*Katsuhiko Nakajima vs Ricky Marvin - GHC Jr. Heavyweight Championship - NOAH 27.11.2011*
_Man the first 5 minutes of this were spectacular. Awesome strike exchanges and then that amazing near fall of the suplex which folded Marvin up. Superbly well worked tease of an early finish and the crowd totally brought it too which was even better. Screw Bubz for talking bad about Marvin and even saying his music sucks. Heartless. Marvin's probably the most reliable junior for a great match in Japan right now. Everytime he has to step up he does it really well and he's always exciting to watch. His leg selling in this was beyond great. I could have done without the sequence leading up to his big dive where he just put the leg work to one side while he did his moves but at least with Marvin the spots are original and good. Leg selling was great like I said but they sacrificed the leg work when they had to do their big moves and you know that's always going to happen so at least they sacrificed it for something just as good and had an awesome last few minutes. I wish juniors just wouldn't bother working the leg during the match because there's no way a modern junior can do a big finish and all of their moves without having to run around on the leg and give up selling it. Finishing stretch ruled though and the crowd were mega hot for it which helped them so much. Bison tribute was super. No overkill on the big moves or kickouts either was pleasing and the finish came right at the peak of the crowd investment in the match. _

*****1/4*

*Didn't care for Go/KENTA. Typical NOAH main event that takes a 10-15 minute and runs it over 20-30 minutes. Go selling the slap that much seemed really odd to me too. Got hot at the end but what's the point when the previous 20 minutes meant nothing. The match did a good job of making KENTA seem like he can go with the heavy champ which was good and I didn't really mind him kicking out of some big stuff. Go kicking out of not 1 but 2 GTS's was shit though, especially when after he has to just get back up and start going through his big moves. 1st one barely got a reaction which was sad. 2nd one did though but then when Go kicked it out it killed the move. Above 2 matches were much better than it.*

*Adam Cole vs Sami Callihan - CZW Jr. Heavyweight Championship - CZW Night Of Infamy*
_Presentation of this match alone means it deserves a mention in here. They build it up so well with the pre match package and the commentators putting the match over. In terms of being a big main event feud ender, this is as good as it gets these days. I'll get the negatives out of the way first because I wanna be positive about this match. Sami isn't good. Awful look, horrible moves and no sense of when to do what move and why and his character sucks. That said though everywhere he wrestles he's really over and he's fairly good at working as a sympathetic babyface working from behind and when the crowd get behind that character and he has a strong heel to work with, all of his drawbacks don't count as much. Sami's blade job is the most head scratching blade job ever. It's totally irrelevant that he's bleeding all match, it comes really early and for some reason he blades after a suplex on the apron. They do some other wacky stuff like the suplex into a ringside guy and all of the ref bumps but the crowd popped for all of them and if it's what your audience wants to see and they're gonna react to it then why not do it in fairness. 1st ref bumps actually worked really well in that Cole had Sami down for 3 off his flipping piledriver but because he caused the ref to get booted in the face he wasn't there to count his pin. Played quite nicely off the ref not being there to see Cole tap to Callihan at Best Of The Best too. From that point the whole thing is overbooked but in a good and entertaining way and everything fits into the feud and ending it. All of Cole's tricks that he tries to pull end up backfiring which is basic booking in a feud ender like this. Cole taking out Hyde who came down as a ref was great. Callihan's piledriver off the apron through a table on fucking MIA YIM was nuts and when you don't do that spot in every match along with a load of other nutty spots, a piledriver off the apron through a table onto the floor on a woman is a great spot. Cole clutching onto his title as Sami had the stretch muffler on him and then Cole having to tap right next to his belt was a great ending. There's a cool backstage video after where Cole's crawling back all broken and defeated and his two cronies are laid out being attended to all broken and defeated too and then Sami comes in and just teases poor Adam driving him to the point of tears. Choosing to ignore Sami's horrible grunting because otherwise it was great. Stuff like showing a music video of the match after really makes it feel important and major too which I like. Match itself was by no means a masterpiece but they did enough cool stuff, got their hate for each other over really well and got the crowd into it. Booking of it was brilliant though and pretty much a perfect way to finish this stage of the Sami/Cole feud and make a title change feel huge._

******


----------



## Chismo

Aw, so glad to read that about Cole/Callihan, it's gonna be my first CZW match in years, and my first "regular", non-hardcore CZW match. Looking forward! 

Btw, can anyone name 5-10 good/great CZW matches, non-hardcore, with decent crowds and in decent venues? Just "normal" wrestling, I don't want any of their violent shit.


----------



## Bubz

Seabs said:


> *Naomichi Marufuji vs Takashi Sugiura - NOAH 27.11.2011*
> _Not a MOTYC but it's a modern Marufuji match that I actually enjoyed and I'll just kinda echo the good things that people have been saying about it but to a lesser extent. Really glad they worked a heavy vs junior match in the way it should be done with the heavy controlling the match bar a few spots here and there when the junior uses his speed to do some flashy moves but then the power of the heavy always comes back to cut him off and they keep going through that until the heavy eventually hits his big move and the match is over. Perfect length for the match too. Neither guy looked weak. The heavy controlled the majority of the match and won and the junior despite losing still looked like he could be competitive even with the heavy. I wish more NOAH matches would be this simple. A lot of Marufuji's shtick is still really coreographed though and there was a series of spots that annoyed me when he reverses the german and lands on his feet which you can see coming a mile away because the other guy always locks his hands like a foot higher up the body, and then the spot where Sugiura goes to suplex him into the corner and he catches himself on the top rope. Shouldn't complain too much though because this was very good._
> 
> *Katsuhiko Nakajima vs Ricky Marvin - GHC Jr. Heavyweight Championship - NOAH 27.11.2011*
> _Man the first 5 minutes of this were spectacular. Awesome strike exchanges and then that amazing near fall of the suplex which folded Marvin up. Superbly well worked tease of an early finish and the crowd totally brought it too which was even better. *Screw Bubz for talking bad about Marvin and even saying his music sucks. Heartless.* Marvin's probably the most reliable junior for a great match in Japan right now. Everytime he has to step up he does it really well and he's always exciting to watch. His leg selling in this was beyond great. I could have done without the sequence leading up to his big dive where he just put the leg work to one side while he did his moves but at least with Marvin the spots are original and good. Leg selling was great like I said but they sacrificed the leg work when they had to do their big moves and you know that's always going to happen so at least they sacrificed it for something just as good and had an awesome last few minutes. I wish juniors just wouldn't bother working the leg during the match because there's no way a modern junior can do a big finish and all of their moves without having to run around on the leg and give up selling it. Finishing stretch ruled though and the crowd were mega hot for it which helped them so much. Bison tribute was super. No overkill on the big moves or kickouts either was pleasing and the finish came right at the peak of the crowd investment in the match. _
> 
> *****1/4*
> 
> *Didn't care for Go/KENTA. Typical NOAH main event that takes a 10-15 minute and runs it over 20-30 minutes. Go selling the slap that much seemed really odd to me too. Got hot at the end but what's the point when the previous 20 minutes meant nothing. The match did a good job of making KENTA seem like he can go with the heavy champ which was good and I didn't really mind him kicking out of some big stuff. Go kicking out of not 1 but 2 GTS's was shit though, especially when after he has to just get back up and start going through his big moves. 1st one barely got a reaction which was sad. 2nd one did though but then when Go kicked it out it killed the move. Above 2 matches were much better than it.*
> 
> *Adam Cole vs Sami Callihan - CZW Jr. Heavyweight Championship - CZW Night Of Infamy*
> _Presentation of this match alone means it deserves a mention in here. They build it up so well with the pre match package and the commentators putting the match over. In terms of being a big main event feud ender, this is as good as it gets these days. I'll get the negatives out of the way first because I wanna be positive about this match. Sami isn't good. Awful look, horrible moves and no sense of when to do what move and why and his character sucks. That said though everywhere he wrestles he's really over and he's fairly good at working as a sympathetic babyface working from behind and when the crowd get behind that character and he has a strong heel to work with, all of his drawbacks don't count as much. Sami's blade job is the most head scratching blade job ever. It's totally irrelevant that he's bleeding all match, it comes really early and for some reason he blades after a suplex on the apron. They do some other wacky stuff like the suplex into a ringside guy and all of the ref bumps but the crowd popped for all of them and if it's what your audience wants to see and they're gonna react to it then why not do it in fairness. 1st ref bumps actually worked really well in that Cole had Sami down for 3 off his flipping piledriver but because he caused the ref to get booted in the face he wasn't there to count his pin. Played quite nicely off the ref not being there to see Cole tap to Callihan at Best Of The Best too. From that point the whole thing is overbooked but in a good and entertaining way and everything fits into the feud and ending it. All of Cole's tricks that he tries to pull end up backfiring which is basic booking in a feud ender like this. Cole taking out Hyde who came down as a ref was great. Callihan's piledriver off the apron through a table on fucking MIA YIM was nuts and when you don't do that spot in every match along with a load of other nutty spots, a piledriver off the apron through a table onto the floor on a woman is a great spot. Cole clutching onto his title as Sami had the stretch muffler on him and then Cole having to tap right next to his belt was a great ending. There's a cool backstage video after where Cole's crawling back all broken and defeated and his two cronies are laid out being attended to all broken and defeated too and then Sami comes in and just teases poor Adam driving him to the point of tears. Choosing to ignore Sami's horrible grunting because otherwise it was great. Stuff like showing a music video of the match after really makes it feel important and major too which I like. Match itself was by no means a masterpiece but they did enough cool stuff, got their hate for each other over really well and got the crowd into it. Booking of it was brilliant though and pretty much a perfect way to finish this stage of the Sami/Cole feud and make a title change feel huge._
> 
> ******


. I don't think Marvin sucks lol, I was just messin' around and I enjoyed the match. Marvin does have an annoying face though .

And I watched Go/KENTA and I have to agree with seabs and antonio. I thought the first half was pretty pointless considering the second half of the match which had a great finish but nothing else from the first half mattered at all. I enjoyed the first half. It wasn't bad or anything but they could have worked something into the finish. Go selling that slap like he got shot was weird, I usually love Go's selling but here it wasn't really needed unlike his match with Akiyama earlier in the year where it really added to the match. The finish was awesome though, apart from the 2 GTS's in a row, that was not needed at all much like KENTA/Sugiura from a few months ago. I'd give it **** probably which is still really good.


----------



## Merc_With_A_Mouth

Steen/Generico at SteenWolf. 

that is all.


----------



## Bubz

Oh god I can't wait for that show. Is it better than their BOLA match? That's like my second favourite match this year.


----------



## Chismo

*Go Shiozaki vs. KENTA (NOAH, 11/27/2011)*

This was excellent. KENTA looks so fresh now, with his new trunks and hair. He's something like Brother Mouzone of puroresu now, lol. The match flew by, it definitely didn't feel like 27 minutes. Like Capone said, it felt like an extended 10 minute match, and that's always good. Now, *geraldinho* and *Seabs* complained about Go selling that slap, but trust me, that particular detail/situation was an excellent touch, because KENTA slapped Go right across his ear, therefore he fucked up his inner-ear pressure. Trust me, that shit hurts, it feels like someone stabs you in your ear. Very uncomfortable. The match was maybe too much back-and-forth, but it doesn't bother me that much, because KENTA was on the roll, he was already a proven HW fighter (Sugiura), and he's 4-1 against Go. KENTA's strikes were stiff as alwas, but damn - Go's chops were SICK! Hopefully we will see the Go/Kobashi chop battle for the GHC title down the road. Finishing stretch was pretty good, and I didn't mind Go kicking out of two G2Ses. It put him over strongly, and KENTA has his new (GAME OVER) finisher anyway. To sum up, I find this match excellent (legit MOTYC), but not better than Go/Akiyama and Go/Tak. But still, it's 3rd Go's title defense I rate ****+, his reign is great so far. It's just a damn shame that NOAH is in such a bad shape, with crowds, finances and all that shit.
*Rating: ****1/4*


----------



## geraldinhio

I know how a slap like that in the ear can fuck anyone up ,Go seemed to oversell it though. Why didn't he sell Kenta's vicious kicks and elbows to head like that ? Or why did he act like superman after the the two GTS's ,I would of been alot happier if he sold these like death rather than a slap. He just got up throwing lariats and moonsaults two minutes later.


----------



## smitlick

JoeRulz said:


> Aw, so glad to read that about Cole/Callihan, it's gonna be my first CZW match in years, and my first "regular", non-hardcore CZW match. Looking forward!
> 
> Btw, can anyone name 5-10 good/great CZW matches, non-hardcore, with decent crowds and in decent venues? Just "normal" wrestling, I don't want any of their violent shit.


Quack vs B-Boy vs Super Dragon vs Steen - Best of the Best 5
Quack vs Sabin - Night of Infamy 4
Mike Quackenbush vs Arsenal vs Alex Shelley vs Sexxxy Eddy - Only The Strong 
Zack Sabre Jr vs Adam Cole - Best of the Best X
Kevin Steen vs El Generico - Point of No Return 
Chris Hero vs Egotistico Fantastico - Lines In The Sand 
Jigsaw, Hallowicked & The Wild Cards vs Ultramantis, F.I.S.T. & Mike Quackenbush - In Da Club
Adam Cole vs Jonathan Gresham - Prelude to Violence II
Chris Hero vs Arik Cannon vs Roderick Strong vs BJ Whitmer - In Da Club
The Best Around vs The Osirian Portal - Tangled Web 3 
Daisuke Sekimoto vs Sami Callihan - Best of the Best X

Can't remember the whole decent crowd/venue stuff but those are some of the better non hardcore CZW stuff I've seen.


----------



## Chismo

Thanks a lot, smitlick. Great info, much appreciated.


----------



## jawbreaker

wasn't there also a Hero/Kingston match that was just a straight up no DQ match (i.e. not "ultraviolent" or a typical CZW hardcore match)?


----------



## seabs

*Yeah it's from 4/7/07. Haven't seen it myself but I've heard non CZW fans say it's really good. I have it on disc so I can upload it if you like.*


----------



## ywall2breakerj

*Go Shiozaki vs KENTA *

****3/4*

*Ricky Marvin vs Katsuhiko Nakajima *

*****1/4*

*Naomichi Marufuji vs Takashi Sugiura*

****1/4*


----------



## Rickey

*TNA Final Resolution 2011*

*30 Minute Iron Man Match-Bobby Roode(c) vs. AJ Styles*

^Other people didn't like the way the match went but I thought Roode played it smart. Really enjoyed the match.

Also enjoyed:
*Austin Aries(c) vs. Kid Kash* Heel vs. heel can work well, who's the bigger cheater?  This was very fun.
*Gail Kim(c) vs. Mickie James*Haven't seen any Shimmer this year or the Joshimania show from Chikara but as of right now this is my favorite women's match of the year.

I already know I probably won't get much agreement but that doesn't matter the question is did I enjoy it?

Well...


----------



## geraldinhio

Eddie Kingston vs Mike Quackenbush -Chikara High Noon.

This is how you make a match feel special.The emotion of this match was off the charts to say the least. If Kingston didn't win things could of turned ugly. Going into the match I wanted Quack to win , sooner rather than later I wanted Kingston to win more than anything. The match was fairly simple with Kingston coming in with the injured knee and Quack expertly working it over for the majority of the match. You just don't see selling on the Indys like Kingston's selling here. He sold it perfect from start to finish. The match it's self wasn't a technical masterpiece but it was so emotive and hard not to enjoy. Between the pre match promos , the special big match aura,a great emotive wrestling match and a heart touching post match promo I think I have my Indy match of the year.

****1/2+


----------



## jawbreaker

*Young Bucks vs. Kings of Wrestling, PWG Battle of Los Angeles*

This is just absolutely textbook. I don't see how anyone can say the Bucks aren't good heels after watching this, because they're awesome here. They bump like crazy and the crowd is eating it all up. When the Kings are on offense, the crowd is loving everything, when the Bucks are on offense, the crowd is begging Claudio to make a comeback. They've done a fantastic job of changing up their moveset while remaining all flashy, they still do superkicks but they're not desperation comeback babyface superkicks, they're double-team heelish superkicks. The crowd absolutely loved seeing them get the shit beaten out of them, they sold it fantastically, and their comeback and subsequent Claudio workover was real smooth. And then Hero is a beast off the hot tag and Claudio is great leading up to the finish. Nothing groundbreaking, but this was tons and tons of fun with a simple structure and dynamic that worked beautifully.

******

*Kevin Steen vs. El Generico, PWG Battle of Los Angeles*

Oh man. The hatred. It was palpable. Crowd wanted Generico to win so bad, and they went crazy when he did. It was fantastic. This was very satisfying and at the same time made me want to see more, in a no-DQ setting. Which of course happened, because PWG knows how to book. Anyway, this was super great just because both guys hated each other and did not fuck around. Generico gets powerbombed on the apron in like the first two minutes. Steen heels it up amazingly while still getting over that he hate hate hates Generico. The finish was great because you could kind of see it coming but you couldn't really for sure until it actually happened. It wasn't very long, but it didn't need to be, and really it's better that it wasn't.

*****1/4*

1. Castagnoli vs. Hero, Eight, ****3/4
2. Steen/Tozawa vs. Goodtime/Yuma, All Star Weekend 8, Night 2, ****1/2
3. Suzuki vs. Nakajima, 3/1 NOAH, ****1/2
4. Hidaka vs. Sekimoto, 1/1 ZERO-1, ****1/4
5. Steen vs. Finlay, Battle of Los Angeles, ****1/4
6. Castagnoli vs. Generico, Kurt RussellReunion 2, ****1/4
7. Suzuki vs. Nakajima, 9/23 NOAH, ****1/4
8. Strong vs. Mack, Card Subject to Change 3, ****1/4
9. Strong/Shelley vs. Generico/Ricochet, Eight, ****1/4
10. Steen vs. Generico, Battle of Los Angeles, ****1/4
11. Steen/Tozawa vs. Generico/Ricochet, All Star Weekend 8, Night 1, ****1/4
12. Goto vs. Tanahashi, NJPW 6/18, ****1/4
13. Strong vs. Briscoe, Only the Strong Survive, ****
14. Castagnoli vs. Generico, Battle of Los Angeles, ****
15. Steen vs. Pac, Eight, ****
16. Cena vs. Punk, Money in the Bank, ****
17. Castagnoli/Hero vs. Jackson/Jackson, Battle of Los Angeles, ****
18. Strong vs. Edwards, Death Before Dishonor IX, ****
19. Hero vs. Edwards, Revolution Canada, ****

11/19 on my MOTYC list are PWG. Best year of any promotion ever?


----------



## Bubz

Yeah that Kings/Bucks match was great stuff. Just really fun all the way through. I've never seen Hero look better than he did when he comes in and just completely fucks shit up. The spot were Nick climbs in the ring and trips over the middle rope and lands face first is honestly one of the funniest things I've seen in a wrestling match. I legit laughed my ass off. It was so good to see the Kings playing a face team and they looked like they really enjoyed doing it.

I like Steen/Generico quite a bit more than you, I re-watched it and thought it was even better the second time around. It's my indy MOTY. Just brilliant stuff from start to finish and I didn't even care that there wasn't any real selling because of how awesome the story they told was.


----------



## dele

JoeRulz said:


> Aw, so glad to read that about Cole/Callihan, it's gonna be my first CZW match in years, and my first "regular", non-hardcore CZW match. Looking forward!
> 
> Btw, can anyone name 5-10 good/great CZW matches, non-hardcore, with decent crowds and in decent venues? Just "normal" wrestling, I don't want any of their violent shit.





jawbreaker said:


> wasn't there also a Hero/Kingston match that was just a straight up no DQ match (i.e. not "ultraviolent" or a typical CZW hardcore match)?


I saw these two posts earlier. CZW's hardcore stuff has gotten quite good in the last year or so. Check out this year's Cage of Death PPV for example.

Edit: Yes it was a PPV. The stream was private on the internet.

Edit of the Edit: Yes, that makes it a PPV.


----------



## Obfuscation

jawbreaker said:


> wasn't there also a Hero/Kingston match that was just a straight up no DQ match (i.e. not "ultraviolent" or a typical CZW hardcore match)?


Loser Leaves Town. It's excellent. Go look for it, imo. (JoeRulz too if he wanted to see non-Ultraviolent CZW matches)


----------



## djmathers1207

BOLA 2011

Kevin Steen vs. El Generico ****1/2-****1/4
Roderick Strong vs. Eddie Edwards ****
El Generico vs. Claudio Castagnoli ****1/2
Willie Mack vs. Chris Hero ***3/4-****
Young Bucks vs. Kings Of Wrestling ****
Kevin Steen vs. Eddie Edwards ***1/4-***3/4
Kevin Steen vs. Finlay ***-***1/2


----------



## seabs

*Suwama & Takumi Soya vs Takao Omori & Manabu Soya - AJPW 04.12.2011*
_Takumi Soya was awesome in this. He isn't really anything to talk about yet in terms of being technically good but my god he plays an awesome rookie getting his ass kicked. His got his jaw all taped up in true goofy rookie style and Omori and Soya both take continuous jabs at his jaw with a big target on. Suwama not getting anything at the start I wouldn't normally be crazy about but they made it work really well by just more or less going straight into Soya getting beat up which made the finish where Suwama comes in feel fresher. Once that does happen the match picks up to another level and gets even better. Really enjoyed Takumi running back in all the time only to get thrown back out to the floor every time. Suwama coming in and wrestling 2 on 1 because he's the pro of the team added to the story too nicely and they did a fine fine job of getting both guys characters over. Some great teased finishes at the end. I wouldn't normally be crazy about one guy taking a load of moves and kicking out of them all only to get the pin himself anyway but it worked here and if you're gonna do it, this is the way to do it._

****3/4+*

*Daisuke Sekimoto & Yuji Okabayashi vs Seiya Sanada & KAI - AJPW 04.12.2011*
_Not the most memorable Daisuke/Yuji tag from this year but if you look past the fact that they've had matches much better than this, it's still a great match in it's own right and I kinda fell into that trap around the middle of thinking it wasn't all that good but it was. All the usual Daisuke/Yuji shtick which was great and Sanada playing FIP is always good. Body slams will never get old, nor will that double suplex when guys take nutty bumps off it onto their head. _

******

*Hikaru Sato vs Hiroshi Yamato - AJPW 04.12.2011*
_:mark: Loved this. Fucking stiff and brutal but Sato's done brutal stiff matches before this year that weren't really any good to watch. This fucking was though. They work the style really well and the structure and pace of the match is excellent. The whole match builds and builds really well. Their little sequence on the top rope rocked. Then Yamato decides to start fucking countering Sato's strikes by headbutting them and he ends up with the ugliest cut on his head ever and immediately starts bleeding buckets everywhere but Yamato is a fucking man and even after this he keeps doing multiple rotations spins and bridging on his head. The bleeding wasn't intentional but if you are gonna get busted open and busted open bad then this was the perfect time and place for it to happen. Timing in the match was perfect right at the end and there was still enough time for the blood to get everywhere and look like a fucking massacre was taking place and it made Yamato look like a fucking monster freak too. Haven't seen their other 2 matches in the 3 part series because I'm a bum like that but this was fantastic._

*****1/4*


----------



## rafz

NOAH 27/11
_Naomichi Marufuji vs. Takashi Sugiura_
******

_Katsuhiko Nakajima vs. Ricky Marvin_
*****1/2*

_Go Shiozaki vs. KENTA_
******


----------



## antoniomare007

*Fighting Taylor Boys vs RockNES Monsters - Steen Wolf*

Fucking great tag match. Non stop action, with some great spots. RockNES are such a great flashy underdog team and they gave them Taylor Boys their best match in PWG.

****1/4

*The Young Bucks vs Future Shock - Steen Wolf*

All I can say is that this lived up to the hype. Great early work by the Bucks in the first half, then it kicked to 2nd gear and all hell broke loose. The Reseda crowd was kinda tired but this 4 made sure to wake them up and go batshit crazy. The Superkick exchange was very well done and the final sequence was beautiful. Wish that Matt could have sold the guillotine a little better (I mean he was bleeding from his nose for fucks sake) but that's just nitpicking.

****1/2

*Kevin Steen vs El Generico - Steen Wolf, Ladder Match*

If you didn't like Ladder War I then don't bother with this match, you are not gonna like it. This was just sick, I really am at a loss for words. As hardcore as you can get without blade jobs, barbwire and lightbulbs. Two announcers that are shocked/disgusted/amazed at what they are watching (just like fans), a lot of drama and a great ending.

****1/4-****1/2




Davey vs Willie was very good and borderline MOTYC imo (loved Willie doing DAVEYINTENSITY better than Davey and Richards doing his thing and not going overboard, working New Japan has done wonders for him it seems). Chuckie T vs Ricochet took a while to get it going but it picked up very nicely in the last 10 minutes or so.


----------



## seabs

*Kevin Steen vs El Generico - Ladder Match - PWG World Championship - PWG Steen Wolf*
_MATCH OF THE YEAR. Totally fucking nuts but they managed to do what they failed to do in their Final Battle match and actually make every spot meaningful and really get their hate over rather than being a series of huge spots which the FWH was. Right from the get go the fucking hate is clear and they don't waste any time rushing into the match and going full throttle from the get go which I loved. Excalibur kept going on about how dangerous the match was and they got the "danger" of the match over really well. You really got the feeling that anyone could get seriously hurt if things go wrong and by anyone I don't just mean the wrestlers. The arena was fucking packed and then they started throwing each other around the place and ladders were flying everywhere and it was nuts in a dangerous way but not so dangerous that it's disturbing to watch if that makes sense. What I loved most about the match was that all of the ladder spots felt really important and significant and they all played into the match rather than just falling off the top of a ladder to the floor through tables because they have the opportunity to do a crazy spot like that. All of the ladder bumps looked really sick but in a way that rocked too. Looooooooved too how they managed to work in some limb work to a match like this with all the big bumps that Generico kept taking on his back and Generico can fucking sell a back injury. Both mens characters got over really well during the match which again is something that often gets pushed aside in a match like this for big spots and cheap pops. Steen was still a total douche but not in a way that flawed the intensity and hate in the match. Steen just nonchalantly tipping the ladder over onto Generico ruled, as did his sick, evil reactions when he destroyed Generico on the ladders. Steen doing the top rope brainbuster ruled too and it was a sweet spot to lead into the Bucks' interference which ruled also. They're so great at getting heat and they did it here in a way that didn't hinder the match by doing a run in but even added to it. Helped them do a huge spot on Generico without him having to be superman and get straight back up to halt Steen, plus it just further adds to the awesome Steen/Bucks build. The match was structured really well towards the result of the match with Generico always working from behind and having his back destroyed more and more as the match went on. Bucks run in was really good too as it allowed them to keep Steen over as a babyface in the match and more importantly after it without having him be luvvy duvvy with Generico. The biggest spot of them all coming right at the end was brilliant and it fucking ruled too, especially with how he landed (although I'm sure it fucking sucked for Steen). Generico pulling the fucking roof down with the belt was truly PWG esque. Then the post match stuff rocked so hard. One of the really great bonuses of watching this unspoiled was the post match stuff. The teased fuck up with the lights at the end of the match made this even greater too. I don't even like Super Dragon but holy cow that return was one of the best returns ever. I noticed that the kid with the Generico mask from BOLA was in the crowd so it was a shame that they didn't do just a little spot again with him but that's like literally the only drawback of this. Both this and their BOLA match are galaxies beyond any of their ROH matches in terms of match quality._

*****3/4*


----------



## Bubz

I know what i'm doing tonight .


----------



## jawbreaker

gahhhhh I still have like six matches on Rock 'N Roll Decadence to finish


----------



## Obfuscation

Eddie Kingston vs Claudio Castagnoli ~ _Chikara Creatures From The Tar Swamp_

_Rating_ ~ ****1/2

Holy crap. The story, the atmosphere, the match itself, EVERYTHING about this was off the charts. The very core of the Chikara vs BDK saga lies within this match. And oh yeah you could feel it. 16 months since their last singles match back in 2009 at Three Fisted Tales sure built this up to a level that it not only did reach, but exceeded past. The storytelling in this was just about as on point as you can get. I mean seriously from every aspect. Kingston, Claudio, Derek Sabato being awesome as the evil BDK official, Bryce, Chikarason, & all the members of the BDK. Bravo on every element that was used here. Toss in a hot crowd IN NEW YORK, Brooklyn to be exact, and you got a crowd that not only wanted to see Kingston succeed, but they wanted to see Kingston wipe Claudio off the face of the planet. I can't think of a match where actual interference helped like it did here. Kingston was destroying Claudio from the gate with tons of hard shots and yakuza kicks which forced the BDK to stick their noses in it. Kingston runs through them one by one. Awesome. Down the line Claudio bicycle kicks Kingston off the apron and he falls chest first on the guard rail. So brutal. Thus becoming the focal point of the match. Kingston's selling was once again off the charts. The man is unbelievable. To reference another great man who shared the first name, Eddie Guerrero, they both had the uncanny ability to draw you into a match. No matter what side they were playing. Kingston is prime at that. If he's a heel, well then you want to see him get his ass kicked in that ring. If he's a face, then you want nothing more than to see this man, who has had so much personal torment, triumph. It's mind blowing actually. Claudio's work here was top notch too. I remember just a few years ago lots often said he was a great talent, but didn't shine much in the personality department. That's changed. VASTLY. His heel work here made you want to jump the rail and take a swing. Working over Kingston's ribs, having Sabato in his back pocket so he can do every dirty trick in the book and get away with it, while being the most confident son of a gun you'll ever see. So glad I re-watched this. I loved it upon the first watch, but I couldn't help feel I was distracted by something. Now I saw every single moment unfold and I'm still exhausted after watching. Talk about a strong finish too. Bryce takes the role for Sabato once he was knocked out with a HEADBUTT from Kingston. Kingston nails Claudio with everything including the Sliding D which only garners him a 2 count. Follows that up with the BACKFIST FROM THE FUTURE. Tursas makes sure he can't pin, he gets taken out, King is back in the ring for a ONE...TWO...WHAT? Sabato pulls Bryce out of the ring and launches him into the railing. Fans are PISSED. Some more BDK shenanigans occur as Tim Donst hands Claudio a steel chain which leads to a rockin european uppercut with the chain wrapped around his arm to defeat Kingston. The life is sucked out of the fans and I'm in awe.

Eddie Kingston. The heart & soul of Chikara. You might think it would be Mike Quackenbush. You might think it would be one of the many talented masked characters such as The Colony or Ultramantis Black. Nope. It's The Last of a Dying Breed. It's the Warking. It's Eddie Kingston. Folks, this right here is why I LOVE professional wrestling.


----------



## Bubz

*Kevin Steen vs El Generico (PWG Steen Wolf)*
Oh.My.God. Holy shit, what an insane, awesome, epic, scary heated fucking match. I can only echo what Seabs said about this. The spots were RIDICULOUS but there was a hell of a story in there as well. Not only Steen/Generico hating each other and almost literally killing each other, but Steen worked over Generico's back and completely destroyed it, and Generico being Generico (aka one of the best wrestlers in the world) sold the hell out of it and it was so awesome to see that in a ladder match instead of just big spots and moves (ladder war comes to mind). Of course there was big spots, crazy fucking spots actually. I was legit scared for these guys on occasion and near the start the fans as well. I cringed so much watching this, but everything made sense and was needed because these guys despise one another and wanted to hurt the other as well as win the match. Usually in ladder matches it annoys me when one guy climbs up SO SLOWLY in order for the other to recover, but in this it was so believable because Generico's back had been so badly messed up and he even had cuts all over it from the bumps he took on the ladders. I wasn't expecting this type of match with a workover and selling, I expected a spot fest (though a great one), but I am so glad these guys didn't just go for that, and I never should have doubted them. *SPOILERS for ending* The Buck's interference was done really well and they came off as awesome heels. I can't believe anyone think's these guys aren't great heels, they are brilliant at it (especially Matt). It was done brilliantly with Steen doing THE SICKEST top rope brainbuster to Generico and that's when they came in and destroyed Steen's knee, enabling Generico to recover and be able to pull off that last INSANE spot on Steen because otherwise Steen would have retained right there so the interference really added to the match and made it logical for Generico to be able to win, despite going through all kinds of ridiculous stuff. The roof coming down with the belt was so fucking awesome :lmao and just something (as seabs said) that could only happen in PWG and be brilliant instead of crappy looking. This is an Amazing match and probably my favorite ladder match as well as my favorite PWG match ever. My MOTY as well. AWESOME! *******

The post match stuff was so awesome as well, after SUPER DRAGON's return (which was so great and the crowd was going completely bat shit) Generico gets back in the ring with Steen as Steen slowly makes his way out, gets on the mic and says 'I knew...we would tear the fucking roof off.' That you did Kevin.


----------



## fallaway1988

I’d rate the *Steen/Generico ladder match *on par with Jericho vs. Michaels at No Mercy. It was great, and I think that’s been well highlighted, but not my match of the year. Just to throw in an alternative perspective I think Steen got a tad lazy with psychology/storytelling; bits of waiting around here and there, that someone else in his place might not do. For example you could say it was the hate, and at times it was, as he just stood over the body of Generico or lounged on the ropes, where you imagine him deciding what awful thing to do to him next, but to me there were some such times when he just slipped out of character by doing nothing. This slightly off-beat match psychology was most apparent to me in the arbitrary way they both decided to start climbing the ladder, which didn’t really come from anywhere. Anyway that’s why I don’t think it was a 5 star match, however I did enjoy it, and I agree with all the positive praise, including the well timed Young Bucks interference. I’m also glad no one was seriously injured (I think Steen’s bump onto the corner of the ladder might be one of the worst I’ve ever seen in a ladder match).


----------



## peachchaos

zomg can't wait to watch this ladder match


----------



## Bubz

fallaway1988 said:


> I’d rate the *Steen/Generico ladder match *on par with Jericho vs. Michaels at No Mercy. It was great, and I think that’s been well highlighted, but not my match of the year. Just to throw in an alternative perspective I think Steen got a tad lazy with psychology/storytelling; bits of waiting around here and there, that someone else in his place might not do. For example you could say it was the hate, and at times it was, as he just stood over the body of Generico or lounged on the ropes, where you imagine him deciding what awful thing to do to him next, but to me there were some such times when he just slipped out of character by doing nothing. This slightly off-beat match psychology was most apparent to me in the arbitrary way they both decided to start climbing the ladder, which didn’t really come from anywhere. Anyway that’s why I don’t think it was a 5 star match, however I did enjoy it, and I agree with all the positive praise, including the well timed Young Bucks interference. I’m also glad no one was seriously injured (I think Steen’s bump onto the corner of the ladder might be one of the worst I’ve ever seen in a ladder match).


I love Steen almost acting 'lazy' and just chilling out after he DESTROYS Generico because he knows he aint getting up from that, and he's getting ready to do something else completely evil. Steen is amazing at getting his character over and he did it so well in this match imo. I don't see the complaint with them both climbing the ladder personaly but I was so invested in this match I might not have noticed it. Do you mean when they climbed it at the end before the big spot?


----------



## geraldinhio

I can't wait untill my exams are over to watch Steen Wolf. I'm suprised many people arn't raving about Future Shock vs The Bucks more. I heard by many it's the MOTN .I'm sure i'd perfer the ladder match but I was just suprised by Seab's rating. I heard it called the best PWG tag match ever. 

I can't wait to see the ladder match. I mean I havn't looked foward to watching a match as much ....well, ever. I think I'm setting my expectations far too high.


----------



## Kid Kamikaze10

Wille vs Davey was great. Future Shock vs Young Bucks was sick. 

But the Ladder Match overshadowed both, IMO.


----------



## fallaway1988

@ Bubz, the ladder climbing part i was talking about was the very first time they started ascending. To me it didn't really come from anything, which wasn't so much a complaint (they had to start at some point), only in my view, great psychology makes something feel well timed, and this just seemed more a matter of looking at the clock. I'm glad you were invested in it enough though that it did feel right. I get the chilling out thing, I suppose i just saw more opportunity for doing stuff, more effort if you will. These are all of course minor points, in critically appraising what was still one of the best ladder matches ever!


----------



## Cactus

*PWG Steen Wolf*
*PWG World Tag Team Championships*
Young Bucks (c) vs Adam Cole & Kyle O'Reilly
_Not the must techincal of matches, but this match was FUN! Some of the moves and sequences in this match are just unreal. I hope this doesn't get overshadowed by the main event though._
******

*PWG World Championship - Ladder Match*
Kevin Steen (c) vs El Generico
_For a match to get the full 5 from me in 2011, you're going to have to leave me shaking and marking like a school child. Taking into factor the post-match stuff, this did just that. Steen and Generico have fantastic chemistry and they are so convincing that they actually hate each other. The best match from any indie promotion and I have ever seen and possibly the best ladder match too. _
*******​


----------



## Bubz

Cactus said:


> *PWG World Championship - Ladder Match*
> Kevin Steen (c) vs El Generico
> _For a match to get the full 5 from me in 2011, you're going to have to leave me shaking and marking like a school child. Taking into factor the post-match stuff, this did just that. Steen and Generico have fantastic chemistry and they are so convincing that they actually hate each other. The best match from any indie promotion and I have ever seen and possibly the best ladder match too. _
> *******​


----------



## jawbreaker

*Young Bucks vs. Dynasty, PWG The Perils of Rock n Roll Decadence*

The Bucks are so fucking great. The workover here on Ryan was fantastic in just about every way, and I loved how it ended with Nick fucking up a Spinaroonie and then getting caught with a superkick. There was a lot of really fun stuff with Sky absolutely freaking out trying to make the hot tag, and all the ref bumps were fantastically done. Ryan pulling Knox out of the ring to save a pin after Nick did the same was a great spot, and totally in character even though the Dynasty were by default the faces in the match. A bit of Sky's bumping was cartoony and there were some wasted spots, but this was tons of fun and definitely worth a watch.

******

1. Castagnoli vs. Hero, Eight, ****3/4
2. Steen/Tozawa vs. Goodtime/Yuma, All Star Weekend 8, Night 2, ****1/2
3. Suzuki vs. Nakajima, 3/1 NOAH, ****1/2
4. Hidaka vs. Sekimoto, 1/1 ZERO-1, ****1/4
5. Steen vs. Finlay, Battle of Los Angeles, ****1/4
6. Castagnoli vs. Generico, Kurt RussellReunion 2, ****1/4
7. Suzuki vs. Nakajima, 9/23 NOAH, ****1/4
8. Strong vs. Mack, Card Subject to Change 3, ****1/4
9. Strong/Shelley vs. Generico/Ricochet, Eight, ****1/4
10. Steen vs. Generico, Battle of Los Angeles, ****1/4
11. Steen/Tozawa vs. Generico/Ricochet, All Star Weekend 8, Night 1, ****1/4
12. Goto vs. Tanahashi, NJPW 6/18, ****1/4
13. Strong vs. Briscoe, Only the Strong Survive, ****
14. Castagnoli vs. Generico, Battle of Los Angeles, ****
15. Ryan/Sky vs. Jackson/Jackson, Perils of Rock 'N Roll Decadence, ****
16. Steen vs. Pac, Eight, ****
17. Cena vs. Punk, Money in the Bank, ****
18. Castagnoli/Hero vs. Jackson/Jackson, Battle of Los Angeles, ****
19. Strong vs. Edwards, Death Before Dishonor IX, ****
20. Hero vs. Edwards, Revolution Canada, ****


----------



## seabs

*Seiya Sanada & KAI vs Suwama & Takumi Soya - AJPW 23.11.2011*
_Soya's an amazing rookie yet again here but this time it's not only him putting in a terrific performance but everyone else 100% brings it too. Soya and KAI have some great little exchanges together, especially when KAI gets pissed at Soya getting in too much offence on him. Soya's a great FIP again and even though Sanada and KAI aren't the two guys you'd have at the top of the list to be working over a rookie they make it work. It breaks down into all guys may as well be legal territory reasonably quickly but they drag that section of the match out and make it work. Suwama comes in and he's a fucking boss. God he's so awesome in this storming in and cleaning house and he's so fired up as well that it's even greater. Soya keeps popping back up for moments of rookie greatness trying to make a name for himself but ultimately being squashed back down each time leaving Suwama to fight on his own and he fucking FIGHTS. Where Sanada and KAI may not have been the perfect team to beat up on Soya, they were perfect for Suwama to demolish by himself. Normal Suwama doing this probably would have sucked but here he's got a loveable rookie to fight for, he's fucking fired up and the crowd are behind him so not only does it work but it totally rules. Really amazing last 5 or so minutes. Sucks that barely anyone else on here seems to be sharing my love for All Japan this year because they've had a super year (in ring rather than backstage obv.) and this is right up there with the best tags this year imo._

*****1/4+*

*Big Van Walter vs Zack Sabre Jr. - wXw World Championship - wXw With You Japan*
_Some really great strike exchanges in this. Walter's strikes are fucking awesome right now and he's a much better worker now for match quality now that he can hit really hard. Sabre's always up for a good hard hitting battle and he really brings it with his strikes too and when both men do it's gonna be fun. Match kinda lost it's momentum in the last 5-7 minutes which meant it was a bit flat come the end but the first 10-15 minutes were great._

****3/4*

*Daisuke Sekimoto & Yuji Okabayashi vs Brahman Shu & Brahman Kei - BJW 22.11.2011*
_Brahmans are generally either annoying or at best goofy. This is probably the most tolerable I've seen them and fortunately for them it comes when they're facing Daisuke and Yuji and they're on top form as well. The beginning of match goofy hardcore weapon stuff was decent in the sense that it wasn't bad or downright stupid. It was they really got going as a proper match that it quickly propelled itself into greatness though. Yuji was an absolute beast in this and him "hulking up" after he'd just got all that black mist sprayed in his face and he pops looking like a fucking menace and then he cleans house on everyone was amazing._

****3/4*

*Jun Kasai & Jaki Numazawa vs Yuki Miyamoto & Isami Kodaka - BJW 22.11.2011*
_I don't normally like the hardcore BJW stuff with lightubes and stuff but this rocked. I even liked the lightubes spot and they're something I usually just detest the fuck out of. Kasai was incredible in this and they work a really entertaining hardcore match without it ever being too ultraviolent that it's just stupid. Super hot crowd + impressive spots = FUN!_

*****+*

*Yoshihito Sasaki & Shinobu vs Takashi Sasaki & Kazuki Hashimoto - BJW 22.11.2011*
_I hate how Sasaki and Shinobu aren't killing each other anymore but this was a more than fine substitute for it. The dynamic between each team was really cool with Sasaki and Shinbou actually getting along and working as a team and Sasaki and Hashimoto being the ones who implode. There's a super spot where they tease Sasaki and Shinobu reverting to their old ways when Shinobu almost runs into Yoshihito with a lariat but then stops so he doesn't hit his partner. The story throughout the match between Sasaki and Hashimoto was really brilliant. Starts out with Takashi trying to use a stack of chairs in a strong BJ match which disgusts Hashimoto because not the way it's done with them guys and from that point they build the tension between the pair superbly. In the meantime there's lots of Sasaki vs Sasaki hate again which ruled. Post match brawl ruled too. More T.Sasaki tags vs Strong BJ teams would rule if Takashi tries to use chairs again._

******

*Daisuke Sekimoto & Yuji Okabayashi vs Jun Kasai & Jaki Numazawa - BJW 22.11.2011*
_In case you hadn't already realised, this show rocked and they ended with the best of the lot. This was the tag league final and it really felt like a big match, both in the way it was wrestled and the atmosphere. Okabayashi was a star again in this and the booking was fabulous to make him look that way, made only better by Yuji being a fucking superstar already and getting the chance to show it. Wouldn't normally go crazy for the ladder dive to the table on the floor spot that early in but it worked to keep Daisuke out of the match for a while whilst Yuji gets murdered and it's a fucking great spot anyway. Could have maybe been even better if the crowd was more one sided behind Yuji but they were still behind him, the problem was that they Kasai and Nakazawa were super over too but because of that the atmosphere was even crazier for it too so it still worked really well. There's a super spot in this when Yuji goes to swing a chair but puts it down because that's not how his crew does things but in the end it backfires because there's no honour in a match like this. Came full circle nicely when he won with a big hardcore spot on the chairs. Shame that Kasai didn't sell the leg again which he did in the first match (and really fucking well too) but that's not really a flaw. The suplex off the apron was one of the best versions of that spot I've seen for ages too. Awesome way to end the tag league._

*****1/4*


----------



## Chismo

*Kevin Steen vs. El Generico (PWG, Steen Wolf)*

Oh my FUCKING God! /review.
*Rating: ******


----------



## Cactus

lolJoe

I'm really on the fence whether letting Steen vs Generico take over Cena vs Punk as my match of the year. May have to rewatch it some when.


----------



## Chismo

Cena/Punk (MITB), I have it at ****3/4. Nothing touches Steen/Generico, it was a damn perfect ladder battle.


----------



## bigbuxxx

Cactus said:


> lolJoe
> 
> I'm really on the fence whether letting Steen vs Generico take over Cena vs Punk as my match of the year. May have to rewatch it some when.


you sound reluctant to watch again . one of the great things about cena/punk to me is i've watched it at least 15 times and as many as 25 times. classic and hoping for a classic from generico/steen.


----------



## antoniomare007

The thing I loved the most from Steen vs Generico is that the "slowly climb the ladder until your opponent interferes" spot wasn't annoying, came of as natural and it made total sense. First with the ladder being too fragile and Steen being very cautious so the thing doesn't brake because of his weight (and it broke anyways), then Generico couldn't climb the thing 'cause his back was completely destroyed by Steen. Excalibur and Chuckie T also did a great job explaining how uneven the canvas is and how dangerous/difficult is to climb a damn ladder in the middle of a ring.

Can't explain why I wasn't as compelled with the sick bumps as most you were. But this is the kind of stuff that makes me think that star ratings are pretty useless. I agree with everything that Seabs, bubz and Cactus wrote but didn't give the same amount of snowflake. The ratings stuff is kinda pointless imo, opinions > starsz~!.


----------



## Rickey

antoniomare007 said:


> opinions > starsz~!.


Exactly right. 

Though I do appreciate everyone's ratings here and in the star rating thread. It helps/can help.


----------



## Obfuscation

Stars are mainly a reference. That's how I look at them. Nothing more, nothing less. I do it for fun. I throw out my two cents for any who would care to know.


----------



## peep4life

***** for steen/generico. Nothing more to add that hasnt been said here, my MOTY


----------



## Obfuscation

****3/4 for me. Just finished it. 

The spot that made me go APE SHIT the most didn't even involve a ladder. I thought that was tremendous irony.


----------



## Violent By Design

anyone got a link to this Stein vs Generico match? I tried a few, but they were removed .


----------



## seabs

*Sticky thread at the top of Indy Media *


----------



## Obfuscation

Tossing in a few more here:

El Generico/Ricochet vs Kevin Steen/Akira Tozawa ~ _PWG All Star Weekend VIII Night One ~ ****3/4_

Eddie Kingston vs Mike Quackenbush ~ _Chikara High Noon_ ~ ****1/2

The tag might be the most unbelievable tag team match I've seen. Generico and Steen are working on god like level. Tozawa is awesome as always and Ricochet is OUTSTANDING now.

Kingston vs Quack wins most emotional match of the year. Can't say enough positive things about the epic storytelling in that one.


----------



## bigbuxxx

As somebody who's not really into PWG I'm giving the Generico/Steen ladder match ****1/2. The Bucks coming out really hurt the flow to me because I had no idea what was going on. I marked out when Super Dragon was there even though I have no idea who he is but PWG sold it as special and he looks like a badass. The match gets highest recommendations from me though. I marked from the time they threw fists at each other till the end of the match. A great continuation of what I think is one of the best feuds, ever. The match may make me a PWG fan and actually watch the GW warfare match when that comes out.


----------



## seabs

*Masaaki Mochizuki vs Akira Tozawa - Open The Dream Gate Championship - Dragon Gate 13.10.2011*
_Awesome title match. Mochizuki disrespecting Tozawa at the start and Tozawa stepping up to prove he can be a top guy was sweet. They work a really good main event type match and keep the crowd interested in the early part before building to a hot finish where the crowd goes nuts rather than your pointless NOAH title matches where they do the first 20 minutes just because and then do a big grandstand finish. They did a really good job of putting Tozawa over but still keeping the face/heel dynamic in tact which Shiozaki/KENTA failed to do and this didn't need either guy to kick out of loads of big moves to put them or the match over. Best Mochizuki performance I've seen all year by some margin, every bit on par with Tozawa here. His strikes were so awesome and his extra little bit of stiffness in them added to the story too. I still wouldn't say he's overly great but the majority of his title matches have all delivered this year so he's obviously been doing something right. K. Hall crowds as well man. Fuck._

*****1/4*

*Masaaki Mochizuki, Shingo Takagi, Masato Yoshino, YAMATO & Gamma vs CIMA, Naruki Doi, BxB Hulk, Cyber Kong & Akira Tozawa - Dragon Gate 04.11.2011*
_Massive amount of fun to watch. Only problem is that the match goes 40 minutes and just over 20 are shown which blows. All the same what is show is a total blast to sit through but with so much clipped out it's basically impossible to really rate it given how much is missing but if they kept the pace up from what they showed for all of it then it'd be a legit MOTYC for sure. FUCK YOU GAORA! Final run of sequences with Kong was immense and they worked the finish with Kong losing and being kicked out so wonderfully well and he looked like a freaking beast in this, maybe the best I've ever seen him actually. Fucking clipping though. Still watch it because what they show is at a bezerk pace and there's shit tons of action. Loved everyone trying to get into the ring and being held back right at the end._


----------



## RKOG

First post!

The El Generico/Steen ladder match blew my mind. It was phenomenal. Don't think it was match of the year, but it was right up with the best of them.

My matches of the year currently consists of:


1)	CM Punk v John Cena (WWE Money in the Bank, July)
2)	Davey Richards v Eddie Edwards (ROH Best in the World, September)
3)	Prince Devitt v Kota Ibushi (NJPW Wrestle Kingdom V, January)
4)	El Generico v Kevin Steen (Ladder Match, PWG Steen Wolf, October)
5)	Seth Rollins v Darren Ambrose (FCW, August)
6)	Kenny Omega & Kota Ibushi v Prince Devitt & Ryusuke Taguchi (NJPW-CMLL Fantasticamania, January)
7)	Dick Togo v Kota Ibushi (DDT Judgment Day, March)
8)	KENTA v Chris Hero (WxW Genesis, June)
9)	Nightmare Violence Connection v El Generico & Ricochet (PWG 8, June)
10)	Hiroshi Tanahashi v Nirooki Goto (NJPW Dominion, June)

11)	Young Bucks v Future Shock (PWG Steen Wolf, October)
12)	Guerrero Maya Jr. v Virus (CMLL, June)
13)	Kings of Wrestling v Young Bucks (PWG Battle of Los Angeles, August)
14)	Low-Ki v Austin Aries v Jack Evans v Zema Ion (TNA Destination-X, July)
15)	Prince Devitt v KUSHIDA (NJPW, March)
16)	Christian v Alberto Del Rio (Ladder Match, WWE Extreme Rules, April)
17)	Claudio Castignoli v El Generico (PWG Battle of Los Angeles, August)
18)	Austin Aries v YAMATO (Dragon Gate USA Mercury Rising, April),
19)	Sin Cara v Sheamus v Daniel Bryan v Wade Barrett v Justin Gabriel v Heath Slater v Kane v Cody Rhodes (Ladder Match, Money in the Bank, July)
20)	Davey Richards v Kota Ibushi (NJPW Best of the Super Juniors XVIII, June)

Great year for wrestling. Great bloody year.


----------



## topper1

Seabs said:


> *Masaaki Mochizuki vs Akira Tozawa - Open The Dream Gate Championship - Dragon Gate 13.10.2011*
> _Awesome title match. Mochizuki disrespecting Tozawa at the start and Tozawa stepping up to prove he can be a top guy was sweet. They work a really good main event type match and keep the crowd interested in the early part before building to a hot finish where the crowd goes nuts rather than your pointless NOAH title matches where they do the first 20 minutes just because and then do a big grandstand finish. They did a really good job of putting Tozawa over but still keeping the face/heel dynamic in tact which Shiozaki/KENTA failed to do and this didn't need either guy to kick out of loads of big moves to put them or the match over. Best Mochizuki performance I've seen all year by some margin, every bit on par with Tozawa here. His strikes were so awesome and his extra little bit of stiffness in them added to the story too. I still wouldn't say he's overly great but the majority of his title matches have all delivered this year so he's obviously been doing something right. K. Hall crowds as well man. Fuck._
> 
> *****1/4*


Anyone have a link to this?

**** 1/2 for the ladder match not quite in my top 3 for the year but wouldn't be disgusted to see people have it there. Few part's made me mad Steen did a big spot to El and should have clearly been able to grab the belt but magicly got hurt or turned into a 80 year old man and couldn't climb the ladder. If you cant work the move into the match in a believeable way then don't do it. I also thought Steen's selling was hit and miss making El look weak at point's in the match. My biggest gripe is that this feud deserved a clean ending! unless it's not over. Is there a reason the buck's couldn't have ran in a beat Steen down after the match?

Besides those few nit picks I enjoyed the match start to finish.


----------



## Chismo

I think it's time to see Steen vs. Generico in a Cage match. Hopefully ROH books it for 10th anniversary PPV.~WAR~


----------



## RKOG

topper1 said:


> Anyone have a link to this?


Every dragon gate match is up on their website.

That match in question was, indeed, fantastic.


----------



## seabs

topper1 said:


> Anyone have a link to this?


*2011 MOTYC Megapost *


> My biggest gripe is that this feud deserved a clean ending! unless it's not over. Is there a reason the buck's couldn't have ran in a beat Steen down after the match?


*Because Bucks are dicks and they don't want Steen to have any success and in this case keep the belt. Plus doing a run in DURING the match rather than after gets them much more heat, especially for this match. They've been doing run ins on Steen all year now building to the GW match*


----------



## topper1

I understand why the Buck's ran in it's just not how I think it should have been booked if this is indeed the end of Steen vs Generico.


----------



## Obfuscation

PWG's booking is known to be sporadic. Another big grudge match over the championship can occur later in 2012. If Generico is still champ by the anniversary show, then expect a BATTLEDOME match for the championship. Hell yes.


----------



## Zatiel

I can't fathom having the Steen/Generico ladder match as MOTY after the egregious Bucks run-in. It wasn't necessitated by the story of their feud with Steen (if anything, it jumped the gun by several months), it spoiled the story of the competition between the two guys in the match in, and added yet another case of unrealistic selling from Steen. Steen already got up within seconds of being dropped spine-first onto a ladder and within less than a minute of being dumped to the outside through a ladder.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed that ladder match. One of the crazier spotfests I've seen this year, plus featured the godly selling by El Generico. But Generico's high-end selling made Steen's look a lot less forgivable, especially his sort-of-limpy performance at the end.


----------



## Bubz

It was more than a spotfest imo. Also Buck's interfered because Steen was going to win the match and it gave Generico time to recover from that awesome brainbuster on the top turnbuckle without it being unrealistic, which in turn enabled Generico to pull off that last brutal spot to finally keep Steen down for good.


----------



## peachchaos

Yep. Not a spot-fest. _The fucking selling, man._ And the interference and post match was just as good as anything WWE (or any indie promotion for that matter) has done this year. This was the indie Cena-Punk, with more brutality and workers that actually hit their spots. 

Last December, I never would have thought anything could match the intensity of their ROH finale. Never under estimate Kevin Steen and El Generico, folks. This match is a high water mark, not just for independent wrestling, but for HARDCORE feud-ending hatred and the art of telling a meaningful story within the realms of this sport.


----------



## Kid Kamikaze10

Yeah, this interference was very logically done. I was actually really surprised by how well time it was.

I have the match as a five star on the simple account that it was much better than their Final Battle match, which was already close to a five, IMO.


----------



## jawbreaker

*Fightin' Taylor Boys vs. RockNES Monsters, PWG Steen Wolf*

Oh man so much fun. A bit sloppy in several spots, but tons of fun, the Monsters are the fucking kings of being underdog babyfaces. Goodtime in particular was great here, taking all kinds of crazy bumps. The powerbomb over the knee was crazy and he sold it magnificently. Ryan Taylor even did okay, a couple of his kicks looked amazing and the launchpad Destroyer was amazing. Cage-Taylor impresses me sometimes and bores me other times, but he was real great here as the dominant heel who just fucks up the faces. Crowd was going bananas for fucking everything the Monsters did too, because they're great at getting the fans behind them. Not a technical masterpiece, but a really fun spotfest nonetheless.

I'll assuredly be back later today with more Steen Wolf ratings.

1. Castagnoli vs. Hero, Eight, ****3/4
2. Steen/Tozawa vs. Goodtime/Yuma, All Star Weekend 8, Night 2, ****1/2
3. Suzuki vs. Nakajima, 3/1 NOAH, ****1/2
4. Hidaka vs. Sekimoto, 1/1 ZERO-1, ****1/4
5. Steen vs. Finlay, Battle of Los Angeles, ****1/4
6. Castagnoli vs. Generico, Kurt RussellReunion 2, ****1/4
7. Suzuki vs. Nakajima, 9/23 NOAH, ****1/4
8. Strong vs. Mack, Card Subject to Change 3, ****1/4
9. Strong/Shelley vs. Generico/Ricochet, Eight, ****1/4
10. Steen vs. Generico, Battle of Los Angeles, ****1/4
11. Steen/Tozawa vs. Generico/Ricochet, All Star Weekend 8, Night 1, ****1/4
12. Goto vs. Tanahashi, NJPW 6/18, ****1/4
13. Strong vs. Briscoe, Only the Strong Survive, ****
14. Castagnoli vs. Generico, Battle of Los Angeles, ****
15. Ryan/Sky vs. Jackson/Jackson, Perils of Rock 'N Roll Decadence, ****
16. Steen vs. Pac, Eight, ****
17. Cena vs. Punk, Money in the Bank, ****
18. Castagnoli/Hero vs. Jackson/Jackson, Battle of Los Angeles, ****
19. Strong vs. Edwards, Death Before Dishonor IX, ****
20. Taylor/Cage-Taylor vs. Goodtime/Yuma, Steen Wolf, ****
21. Hero vs. Edwards, Revolution Canada, ****


----------



## Bubz

*PWG Steen Wolf*

*Davey/Mack ***3/4*

*Young Bucks vs Future Shock*
Man this was an awesome tag match indeed. I'd put this higher than Future Shock vs LDRS but not as high as Steen/Tozawa vs Generico/Ricochet. I'm not a fan on O'Reilly on his own, but in FS he's so good, but Cole is better imo. Anyway, there is a good work over on O'Reilly and once Cole gets the hot tag, shit gets un-real. There is the very well done strike exchange from the preview, but there is a spot after that wich is the highlight for me. Both teams exchange strikes again with the classic 'boo/yay' thing going with the crowd, and just as Cole starts getting the upper hand with forarm strikes, both Bucks just decide to kick O'Reilly staright in the face with some seriously brutal looking super kicks. I marked huge for that. The whole finishing stretch was so much fun and was really well executed and crisp wich is why I think I liked it more than the FS/LDRS match from wxw earlier this year as that was pretty sloppy in parts but was still great. The finish was awesome too. *****1/4 - ****1/2*


----------



## seabs

*Davey/Mack was shit. Mack is like twice as big as Davey yet they worked the match the other way around and it was so stupid to not do anything with the size difference. 

I thought Bucks/FS was pretty average until the last 5 or so minutes. FS never really get any babyface shine at the start to do big spots and really get themselves over which was even more essential than normal given it was their debut in Reseda and Bucks' workover was uninteresting. They really went overboard with the mocking WWE guys too that it got annoying. Neither FIP segment was overly good either. The teased finish with the double guillotine was magnificent though. I'd take their BITW match over it definitely.*


----------



## TelkEvolon

I don't think it topped their match at Final Battle, all that amazing build and all those meaningful spots, Final Battle was way more intense also.

The ladder match had crazy spots, but it also suffed from being a two man ladder match, which really didn't come off looking good. Crazy ladder spot, get up quick while the other guy is dicking around and the foot of the ladder and then reverse roles.

Would of been FAAAAAAAR better as a Guerrilla Warfare match.


----------



## RKOG

Bubz said:


> It was more than a spotfest imo. Also Buck's interfered because Steen was going to win the match and it gave Generico time to recover from that awesome brainbuster on the top turnbuckle without it being unrealistic, which in turn enabled Generico to pull off that last brutal spot to finally keep Steen down for good.


This.


----------



## RKOG

Seabs said:


> *Davey/Mack was shit. Mack is like twice as big as Davey yet they worked the match the other way around and it was so stupid to not do anything with the size difference.
> *


*

I thought it was booked perfectly. Davey is a world travelled superstar, in peak condition and current ROH Champion. Wille Mack is a young guy in pretty poor shape, who was a PWG fan that got into the business. And this kid, despite his shortcomings, took the 'legendary' Davey Richards all the way. If Mack bossed him like a monster heel it would have looked stupid.*


----------



## topper1

Seabs said:


> *Davey/Mack was shit. Mack is like twice as big as Davey yet they worked the match the other way around and it was so stupid to not do anything with the size difference*


*Davey is a 208 pound roid monkey at 5'8 while Mack might be bigger in height and fat I for one highly doubt he is much stronger in the gym. Has Mack's size ever came into play in any of his big PWG matches like vs Strong?*


----------



## Bubz

Not that I remember. I saw no problem with Davey beating on Mack like he did, i've never watched a Mack match and thought he should be dominating it because of his size though.


----------



## Chismo

Seabs said:


> *Davey/Mack was shit. Mack is like twice as big as Davey yet they worked the match the other way around and it was so stupid to not do anything with the size difference.*


Disagree. It's not about who's bigger and all that shit. It's about who hits harder, who can apply more painful submission. I say, fuck the size difference.


----------



## seancarleton77

Since when has a Davey Richards match outside of Japan made any sense or even reached the realm of logic or believability. Davey doesn't even have to try and make his matches make sense in ROH & PWG anymore, most of the fans like that Davey bounces around like a pinball and wrestles 26 minute matches that favour high spots over storytelling and pacing. If you want to see Davey wrestle watch NJPW, even Davey seems to like it more than the Indies.


----------



## jawbreaker

*Kevin Steen vs. El Generico, PWG Steen Wolf*

Everything good that needs to be said about this match has already been said. Go back and find Seabs' or Bubz' reviews, they've got the main points. What I'd like to do here then is talk about some of the flaws people have been mentioning.

- The Bucks interference: totally logical, and actually brutal. Got them so much heat, kept Steen a face, let Generico sell the turnbuckle brainbuster appropriately, and the attack was just so well done. I was legit cringing at the chairshots to the knees.

- Steen climbing the ladder too slowly: have you ever tried to climb a ladder that was on uneven ground? You literally cannot go more than a rung at a time. You can't really go all that fast on a ladder even when it's set up perfectly, but those ladders were clearly unstable and it was totally believable that Steen couldn't climb it fast.

- Steen's selling: he didn't sell a body part like Generico, but he looked like he was legit knocked out the whole time. Don't know if it was legit, but it made the match even better for me, because he looked like he had no clue where he was (believable, look how many times his head hit various ladders) and he still wanted to kill Generico. He didn't think about it, it was just his instinct, nothing was going to stop him from killing that fucker in the mask.

*******

Match of the year.

1. Steen vs. Generico, Steen Wolf, *****
2. Castagnoli vs. Hero, Eight, ****3/4
3. Steen/Tozawa vs. Goodtime/Yuma, All Star Weekend 8, Night 2, ****1/2
4. Suzuki vs. Nakajima, 3/1 NOAH, ****1/2
5. Hidaka vs. Sekimoto, 1/1 ZERO-1, ****1/4
6. Steen vs. Finlay, Battle of Los Angeles, ****1/4
7. Castagnoli vs. Generico, Kurt RussellReunion 2, ****1/4
8. Suzuki vs. Nakajima, 9/23 NOAH, ****1/4
9. Strong vs. Mack, Card Subject to Change 3, ****1/4
10. Strong/Shelley vs. Generico/Ricochet, Eight, ****1/4
11. Steen vs. Generico, Battle of Los Angeles, ****1/4
12. Steen/Tozawa vs. Generico/Ricochet, All Star Weekend 8, Night 1, ****1/4
13. Goto vs. Tanahashi, NJPW 6/18, ****1/4
14. Strong vs. Briscoe, Only the Strong Survive, ****
15. Castagnoli vs. Generico, Battle of Los Angeles, ****
16. Ryan/Sky vs. Jackson/Jackson, Perils of Rock 'N Roll Decadence, ****
17. Steen vs. Pac, Eight, ****
18. Cena vs. Punk, Money in the Bank, ****
19. Castagnoli/Hero vs. Jackson/Jackson, Battle of Los Angeles, ****
20. Strong vs. Edwards, Death Before Dishonor IX, ****
21. Taylor/Cage-Taylor vs. Goodtime/Yuma, Steen Wolf, ****
22. Hero vs. Edwards, Revolution Canada, ****


----------



## Bubz

Completely agree with everything there^^. I haven't seen any complaints about the match that I would agree with at all. I loved everything about it.


----------



## Scavo

Steen vs. Generico - BOLA 2011: ****3/4*

Steen vs. Generico - Steen Wolf - *****3/4*


----------



## Chismo

*Go Shiozaki & Jun Akiyama vs. Kensuke Sasaki & Takeshi Morishima (NOAH, 12/15/2011)*

HOLY SHIT, AKIYAMA IS BALD! You think he was a badass before? Well, think again, lol! He looks ubercool and serious now. This match was a lot of fun. It's 15 minutes of non-stop action, they practically skipped the feeling out process and begun with bombs immediately. I loved the Akiyama vs. Kenskay test of strength, it was really entertaining. And that Kenskay is one unpredictable fucker, how he nailed Shiozaki with Piledriver in cold blood, shiiiiiit! Shiozaki and Morishima did a very good job in hyping their January clash for the GHC Hewiki. The crowd still reacts to Shima, they want to see him as a Champ, he gets better reactions than Go.
*Rating: ***1/2*


----------



## seabs

JoeRulz said:


> Disagree. It's not about who's bigger and all that shit. It's about who hits harder, who can apply more painful submission. I say, fuck the size difference.


*It bothered me when Davey was lifting him up and doing suplexes on him like he was Eddie Edwards. I'm not saying Mack should have dominated the match but Davey shouldn't have been throwing him around like he did for some spots. He didn't do any submission or mat work apart from a few minutes where he did a few submissions and seemed to start working the arm but that ended up being only so he could do a few fancy looking moves. *


----------



## topper1

Seabs said:


> *It bothered me when Davey was lifting him up and doing suplexes on him like he was Eddie Edwards.*


*208 pound's at around 10 - 13% bodyfat I think you believe Davey isn't as strong as he really is due to him being short. The man is a tank and if he wanted to cut his bodyfat down to 6% could likely step on a bodybuilding stage if he wanted to.*


----------



## antoniomare007

yeah, I had no problem with Mack vs Davey. Specially because Willie's size has never been an important part of his matches. Davey is supposed to be a freak in terms of strength and intensity~! so suspending disbelief wasn't hard at all when it came to him "dominating" Willie.


----------



## Bubz

*WWE TLC*

Ziggler/Ryder ****3/4* Great fast paced opener as always from Ziggler, but Ryder looked really good here too.

Punk/Miz/Del Rio *****1/4* Awesome match right here. Punk owned shit in this, and Rio was brutal as hell with some of the stuff he did. Miz was good as well despite not doing anything special. Some really good spots, and Ricardo took a scary bump off the ladder to the outside that looked like it had hardly any protection. I loved Punk being handcuffed twice and finding ways out both times and being the smartest guy in the match. Just great action, not a lot more to say really.


----------



## Rickey

*WWE TLC 2011*

Punk(c) vs. Del Rio vs. Miz

Ziggler(c) vs. Ryder-loved how Ziggler sold that Rough Ryder


----------



## dk4life

Rickey said:


> *WWE TLC 2011*
> 
> Punk(c) vs. Del Rio vs. Miz
> 
> Ziggler(c) vs. Ryder-loved how Ziggler sold that Rough Ryder


That was a freaking awesome sell

CM Punk vs Alberto Del Rio vs The Miz - TLC - WWE title - loved this match - ****1/4


----------



## Ali Dia

WWE TLC:
Ryder/Ziggler ***
Punk/Del Rio/Miz ***1/2, very good but pretty far from great in my opinion.


----------



## Rickey

dk4life said:


> That was a freaking awesome sell


----------



## seancarleton77

The Bucks vs. Future Shock tag would have been so much better had they not took it to the realm of "Come on, end it already". ****

Punk vs. Del Rio vs. Miz = ****1/4


----------



## Scavo

*SUWAMA vs. Jun Akiyama - Triple Crown 10/23/11*

Absolutely fantastic match, possible MOTY, along with Steen-Generico Ladder match, KENTA-Sugiura and TNA's Lethal Lockdown.

*****3/4*


----------



## seancarleton77

I'm not sure whether to give Steen vs. Generico 5 stars, but it was really fucking close.


----------



## topper1

Scavo said:


> *SUWAMA vs. Jun Akiyama - Triple Crown 10/23/11*
> 
> Absolutely fantastic match, possible MOTY, along with Steen-Generico Ladder match, KENTA-Sugiura and TNA's Lethal Lockdown.
> 
> *****3/4*


You had me agreeing till the dreadfull NOAH match. Not sure how that made it anywhere in this topic let alone on a number of people's list . When me and Seabs agree 100% you know it must be right lol.


----------



## seabs

topper1 said:


> You had me agreeing till the dreadfull NOAH match. Not sure how that made it anywhere in this topic let alone on a number of people's list . When me and Seabs agree 100% you know it must be right lol.


*KENTA/Sugiura? Haven't even seen that yet. Lethal Lockdown was the one that stood out to me as being the odd one out.

Interested in seeing what your top 10 or whatever for this year is btw.*

*Kensuke Sasaki vs Takashi Sugiura - NOAH 14.11.2011*
_Much more of the same as their other match this year. Really great hard hitting heavyweight match and the big stuff at the end was actually significant with the way they built to the grand finish and paced the match nicely. Didn't think it dragged once either besides maybe a little when Sasaki used a chinlock as a rest hold but it wasn't long enough to stop me caring for the match and I'm totally nitpicking there so I'll stop._

*****+*


----------



## Bubz

Sugiura/KENTA was way to long for me and they could have told a brilliant story there with KENTA being the underdog trying to fight back and getting destroyed but they didn't. It was way to back and forth much like KENTA/Go was. I love KENTA (no ****) but he needs to stop acting as the equal to the heavyweights imo and start letting them get a good workover or control segment in on him to create a great story but they have failed to deliver so far with KENTA.


----------



## seabs

*Him getting injured may be a good thing in the long run for his heavyweight carear because hopefully when he comes back he wont have to work those heavyweight matches as a heel (or maybe closer to the point not have to ignore that he's supposed to be a major heel) and he can work from behind against the bigger guys and let the crowd get behind him.*


----------



## ywall2breakerj

*Steen vs Generico-Ladder Match * 
Fucking awesome/review 

*****3/4*


----------



## Chismo

Seabs said:


> *Lethal Lockdown was the one that stood out to me as being the odd one out.*


*Lethal Lockdown* was a ton of fun, if you ask me. It was brutal and hilarious, but also with good storytelling. Great entertainment, and Ric Flair's performance was awe inspiring, it's insane that 62-year old man takes such a sick bumps. His screaming, yelling and other over the top antics were pure gold.:lmao It's definitely not the best match in 2011, but damn - it's one of my favorites. *****1/4*


----------



## topper1

Seabs said:


> *KENTA/Sugiura? Haven't even seen that yet. Lethal Lockdown was the one that stood out to me as being the odd one out.****+*


*Oh my bad I thought it was KENTA vs GO that he put down. I haven't watched KENTA vs Sugiura either lol. 

I never watched the Lockdown match and I think I've only seen 1 or 2 TNA matches from 2011. So that one couldn't stand out to me although I doubt I would have enjoyed it.*


----------



## seabs

*I did actually like Lethal Lockdown this year but in no way is it a legit MOTYC like he said it was. *


----------



## Obfuscation

JoeRulz said:


> *Lethal Lockdown* was a ton of fun, if you ask me. It was brutal and hilarious, but also with good storytelling. Great entertainment, and Ric Flair's performance was awe inspiring, it's insane that 62-year old man takes such a sick bumps. His screaming, yelling and other over the top antics were pure gold.:lmao It's definitely not the best match in 2011, but damn - it's one of my favorites. *****1/4*


So two matches from Lockdown were worth seeing? Good for them. I need to see these for myself. (Angle/Jarrett as the other obviously)


----------



## Fighter Daron

Angle/Jarrett is must-see because Angle did one of the best botches of the year(BOTYC), but not better than Davey's Shooting Star Smashed.


----------



## seabs

*Angle/Jarrett was bad.*


----------



## Fighter Daron

Seabs said:


> *Angle/Jarrett was bad.*


Not so good, no.


----------



## Bubz

Just watched *Funk/Lawler* from NEW (North East Wrestling). I wouldn't call it a great match, but my god it was loads of fun! The fact these two guys can put on such a fun little match in 2011 speaks volumes for their talent. I mean, they basically just punch and throw chairs at eachother the whole time, but they make it entertaining. They played off a match over 20 years old, that's impressive! not sure how to rate it in STARZ but it was hella fun to see.


----------



## geraldinhio

I hate trying to rate Fun matches , that's why I disregard ratings usually when it comes to Chikara shows. The only one I think I rated was Quack/Kingston with is one of MOTY at the moment I'd say. Just out of curosity what's everyone MOTY since it's closing the year ?

Here's mine anyway :

1) Couldn't pick just one so i'd go for Quack vs Kingston at High Noon and both Generico and Claudio matches from PWG . Both at ****3/4 for me.
2)Cena vs Punk MITB , Generico vs Steen at Steenwolf and Seth Rollins vs Dean Ambrose 2/3 falls match from FCW . All at ****1/2+ 

I'm obviously forgetting a few so I'll probably update this again . There's a shit load of great Hero matches , a lot at ****1/2 or there abouts . I probably gave to to Finlay vs Callihan too.


----------



## bigbuxxx

I hope it's too soon to give a solid #2 since ROH has FB on Friday and NJPW has two solid events on Friday/Saturday.


----------



## geraldinhio

I can't see anything changing really ,even after Final Battle. I didn't really like Davey and Edwards previous match so probably won't like this one ,hopefully they prove me wrong . Corino and Steen could be immense since it's been made a no DQ match though. I'm not a big fan of Puro but what's on the NJPW show?

Also PWG Fear's main event was said to be nuttier and more crazy than the ladder match .  Listened to a lot of reviews from people who were at the show and it's rated the full ***** by everyone who seen it. Some seen the ladder match live too and said this was better. I find it very hard to believe.


----------



## bigbuxxx

12/23
6. Special 8 Man Tag Match: Hiroshi Tanahashi, Togi Makabe, Tiger Mask & KUSHIDA vs. Minoru Suzuki, Yoshihiro Takayama, TAKA Michinoku & Taichi
7. IWGP Jr. Heavyweight Title: Prince Devitt (c) vs. Rocky Romero

12/24
8. Special Tag Match: Hiroshi Tanahashi & Togi Makabe vs. Minoru Suzuki & Yoshihiro Takayama

I could see these three matches becoming very very good esp the last one. 

I have Richards/Edwards #3 atm so I'm hopeful for another great match there. 

What was the Fear ME? Don't see Fear listed at all in the MOTYC media post. edit: Must be the one that isn't out yet


----------



## geraldinhio

bigbuxxx said:


> 12/23
> 6. Special 8 Man Tag Match: Hiroshi Tanahashi, Togi Makabe, Tiger Mask & KUSHIDA vs. Minoru Suzuki, Yoshihiro Takayama, TAKA Michinoku & Taichi
> 7. IWGP Jr. Heavyweight Title: Prince Devitt (c) vs. Rocky Romero
> 
> 12/24
> 8. Special Tag Match: Hiroshi Tanahashi & Togi Makabe vs. Minoru Suzuki & Yoshihiro Takayama
> 
> I could see these three matches becoming very very good esp the last one.
> 
> I have Richards/Edwards #3 atm so I'm hopeful for another great match there.
> 
> What was the Fear ME? Don't see Fear listed at all in the MOTYC media post. edit: Must be the one that isn't out yet


_I see the appeal in these matches even if I'm not a massive puro fan. I'm a Romero mark and a big Devitt fan so I'll defo check that out. The 6 man tag does have great prospects too.

I didn't enjoy Richards and Edwards as much as others but that's a different story. Some things about the match made me want to pull my hair out and I'm a big fan of both wrestlers. Couldn't even bring myself to rewatch it.

It was Kevin Steen and Superdragon vs The Young Bucks in a Guerilla Warfare. On paper it sounds insane. Should be out in the next few weeks though._


----------



## bigbuxxx

I could see not liking the Wolves match esp with the dead crowd after they were killed in the 45 min tag match. 

I've not followed PWG at all but watched that ladder match and I'm looking forward to seeing the GW match so maybe next year I'll see this great wrestling talked about here .


----------



## geraldinhio

It wasn't just the dead crowd but a lot of other things really.


> Davey Richards vs Eddie Edwards BITW 2011 . Really enjoyed it except for a few flaws . Davey gets destroyed by Eddie on the apron , get killed by two vicious stomps (one through the table of course ) but yet 2 minutes later he acted like it never happened .He was running around the ring all of a sudden doing his usual thing. Also why did this match not end by a submission ? I get that they played on the fatigued story but what a waste of good storytelling , submission work and selling . The finish made my favourite parts of the match not matter at all .
> Everything after the spot where Davey kicked the ring post went downhill for me . The match just seemed to go flat and kinda lost my attention . I could of just been tired . When Davey won I was like , huh that's it ? It just came out of nowhere or something .
> I'd give it **** , maybe a bit more , I dunno. Not Eddie's best defence , nor Davey's best title match .


_There's my post after watching the match. It's not the best at summing it up but it just followed up a post from JoeRulz who summed up the flaws in the match perfect. 

Hunt down pretty much every PWG match mentioned in this thread. Generico vs Claudio at BOLA and Kurtrussell Mania are fucking awesome matches._


----------



## antoniomare007

I just downloaded Death Vegas and Final Battle is this weekend, but I don't think anything is gonna surpass NVC vs Generico/Ricochet as MOTY for me.

For singles matches is a tossup between Akiyama/SUWAMA, Punk/Cena I and both Generico/Steen matches (BOLA and Steen Wolf).


----------



## topper1

Eddie Kingston vs Mike Quackenbush **** 1/2 - **** 3/4 this is why I still watch sadly you don't get emotion like this very much from a wrestling anymore.


----------



## geraldinhio

_Did you see the ladder match yet ? It's nuttier and crazier but accompied by some great storytelling.

Steen and Superdragon vs The Bucks was said to make the NVC vs Generico/Ricochet look like a child's play. From what I hear from love reviews many are calling it the most nutty and insane PWG match ever. I can't see how anything could be crazier than Generico and Steen ladder match ,NVC vs Generiochet , The Guerrilla warfare from PWG 7 and Steen and SD's Guerrilla Warfare match. So hyped to see it .

EDIT : Great to see the love for Kingston and Quack. Awesome match. The pre match promo nearly had me in tears. I'm sure I would of broke into tears there live as sad as it sounds. :lmao_


----------



## Bubz

Top 10 (I'm hoping there will be more stuff to add to the top 10 after this weekend, but I don't see anything being better than most of these imo)

Kevin Steen vs El Generico (PWG Steen Wolf) *****
Suwama vs Jun Akiyama - Tripple Crown (AJPW 23/10) *****
Kevin Steen vs El Generico (PWG BOLA) ****3/4
John Cena vs CM Punk (WWE Summerslam) ****3/4
El Generico vs Claudio Castagnoli (PWG BOLA) ****1/2
John Cena vs CM Punk (WWE MITB) ****1/2
Takashi Sugiura vs Kensuke Sasaki (NOAH 23/07) ****1/2
Claudio Castagnoli vs El Generico (PWG Kurt Russell Reunion II) ****1/2
Kevin Steen/Akira Tozawa vs El Generico/Ricochet (PWG All Star Weekend 8 Night 1) ****1/2
Chris Hero vs Akira Tozawa (PWG All Star Weekend 8 Night 2) ****1/2

Hero/Claudio from Eight might edge out Hero/Tozawa but I'm not sure yet.

I realised today that PWG has pretty much dominated everything this year in terms of great matches for me.


----------



## topper1

Quick rough draft in No order. Likely forgetting a match or two.

Tanahashi vs Nagata April
AJPW tag March
CM Punk vs Cena MITB
Hero vs Tozawa 
Suwama vs Jun Akiyama
Mike vs Kingston
Kevin Steen vs El Generico - Steen Wolf
Takashi Sugiura vs Kensuke Sasaki

There is 8. 

Davey vs Eddie and BxB Hulk vs Tozawa are both matches I quite liked but would wanna re watch before throwing them on my list. El vs CC and Hero vs Steen both from Kurt Russell are also both on my rewatch list I liked both quite a bit but don't remember much about them at the moment.


----------



## Cactus

Oh, this could be fun. My top 10.

1. Cena vs Punk WWE MITB *****
2. Steen vs Generico PWG Steen Wolf *****
3. Steen & Tozawa vs Generico & Ricochet PWG ASWN2 ****3/4
4. Orton vs Christian WWE OTL ****1/2
5. Richards vs Edwards ROH BITW ****1/2
6. Tanahashi vs Nagata NJPW Alive ****1/2
7. Tanahashi vs Nagata NJPW ND ****1/2
8. Generico vs Claudio PWG Kurt Russel ****1/2
9. Generico vs Steen PWG BOLA ****1/2
10. Generico vs Claudio PWG BOLA ****1/4


----------



## Bubz

Could any of you lovely folks point me to a link for Quackenbush/Kingston? I've looked through the media section but couldn't find it. I'm shit at looking though, maybe it's that.


----------



## topper1

Haven't seen Alive yet both wouldn't be shocked if that made it to my top 10.

I don't seem to be quite as high on the BOLA matches as everyone else perhaps I should give them a rewatch.


----------



## geraldinhio

Bubz said:


> Could any of you lovely folks point me to a link for Quackenbush/Kingston? I've looked through the media section but couldn't find it. I'm shit at looking though, maybe it's that.


Not sure if there's a single file link for the match , but here's the whole show.



> LAUDUYTKMNHGAS1.rar
> http://www.megaupload.com/?d=QSZXPH15
> LAUDUYTKMNHGAS2.rar
> http://www.megaupload.com/?d=D5I8DS2P


Credit to X-Static.

I'd download the whole show if I were you and didn't see it. It didn't take that long for me to download , the show is a lot of fun anyway and it could be worth downloading it for the mainevent alone.

I really am missing a lot of Puro this year. Havn't watched any of Tanahashi vs Nagata matches , the Suwama vs Akiyama match or any of the AJPW tags. Don't know why I'm so far in Puro this year .


----------



## Bubz

^^ Cheers my man. Don't know how I missed it.


----------



## jawbreaker

1. Steen vs. Generico, PWG Steen Wolf, *****
2. Castagnoli vs. Hero, PWG Eight, ****3/4
3. Steen/Tozawa vs. Goodtime/Yuma, PWG All Star Weekend 8, Night 2, ****1/2
4. Suzuki vs. Nakajima, 3/1 NOAH, ****1/2
5. Hidaka vs. Sekimoto, 1/1 ZERO-1, ****1/4
6. Steen vs. Finlay, PWG Battle of Los Angeles, ****1/4
7. Castagnoli vs. Generico, PWG Kurt RussellReunion 2, ****1/4
8. Suzuki vs. Nakajima, 9/23 NOAH, ****1/4
9. Strong vs. Mack, PWG Card Subject to Change 3, ****1/4
10. Strong/Shelley vs. Generico/Ricochet, PWG Eight, ****1/4

here's my top ten, before watching Suwama/Akiyama, Quack/Kingston, and a few NOAH matches (Go/KENTA), and a few NJPW matches. I'll get those done this week.

Also think I'm gonna go back and give another look to Briscoes/Future Shock from Atlanta (and probably KOW-FS from the same weekend) because I remember liking them a lot and I've only got three ROH matches at **** and none higher.


----------



## Bubz

I rewatched Kings/FS the other day and it was so awesome. Probably in the **** range, hella fun match.


----------



## SuperDuperDragon

PWG stands for POW What Goodies...that's my useless post for the day...


----------



## bigbuxxx

geraldinhio said:


> It wasn't just the dead crowd but a lot of other things really.


I could see people not liking it. I gave it **** on the first watch and found it pretty boring but watched a couple more times and really warmed up to the style of the match. 

Gonna watch NVC vs Generico/Ricochet tonight, so looking forward to that.


----------



## bigbuxxx

My puro list of ****1/2+:

*****3/4*
1. Tanahashi vs. Goto @ Destruction
2. Tanahashi vs Kojima @ WK V

*****1/2*
3. Shingo vs. Tozawa @ DG World Festival
4. Takayama vs. Shiozaki on 9/23
5. Apollo 55 vs. No Remorse Corps on 10/10
6. Nakamura vs. Naito - G-1 Climax final
7. Nagata vs Tanahashi on 12/4

Haven't seen Akiyama vs Suwama but I've no interest to see Akiyama in any match (unfortunately?).


----------



## Bubz

Not an Akiyama fan? He's one of my favorite guys to watch in Japan.


----------



## Cactus

Bubz said:


> Not an Akiyama fan? He's one of my favorite guys to watch in Japan.


I'm shocked that someone isn't a fan of him. He's one of the best in Japan at the moment. Now that he looks like a pirate, there's more of a reason to check him out.


----------



## Bubz

Yeah, he looks boss now with the bald head. Tbh though it's about time he shaved it off lol, he's been going bald for years.


----------



## bigbuxxx

I've seen only 3 or 4 Ak matches but every one I've wanted to turn off in the middle.

Watched Claudio vs Generico from Kurt Russell Reunion and I'm struggling to come up with any reason to knock it down from *****.


----------



## Bubz

The only reason I didn't rate that match higher than I did was because I wanted it to last longer, everything they did in it was pretty much perfect. I prefer the BOLA match though because it was so crazy, but still told a brilliant story.


----------



## antoniomare007

*Daisuke Sekimoto & Yuji Okabayashi vs SUWAMA & Takumi Soya - Death Vegas*

Man was this fun or what. I was gladly surprised that the Yokohama crowd (which had been dead for most of the show) decided to participate in this, of course it wasn't even close to a Korakuen crowd but at least it was something. Completely different from the RWTL match as Soya/SUWAMA are clearly the bad guys. They did a great job heeling it up all things considered. It ran a little too long with Takumi being a little too resilient for my taste but overall this was very good. I loved how the crowd started to get anxious about Oka and Daisuke not being able to win, even booing the referee's pin fall counts. Also, I hate to say it but I'm HYPED for SUWAMA vs Sekimoto at Korakuen Hall on 1/2, I tried not to get my expectations up but after this I wanna see this 2 bring the hate and stiffness to Korakuen in a singles match.

It really bums me out that besides Seabs, dele and me it seems as most of the forum hasn't paid attention to the BJ vs AJ feud and specially the greatness delivered by Okabayashi and Daisuke all year long in different promotions.


----------



## Cactus

bigbuxxx said:


> I've seen only 3 or 4 Ak matches but every one I've wanted to turn off in the middle.
> 
> Watched Claudio vs Generico from Kurt Russell Reunion and I'm struggling to come up with any reason to knock it down from *****.


Good to see your on a PWG phase as of late. They really are the best in American pro-wrestling at the moment. You should totally check out Generico/Ricochet vs Steen/Tozawa.

I had Claudio vs Generico at ****1/4 originally. On a rewatch, I was really able to appreciate it more and boosted it up to ****1/2. Generico's selling was great in it.


----------



## Fighter Daron

antoniomare007 said:


> It really bums me out that besides Seabs, dele and me it seems as most of the forum hasn't paid attention to the BJ vs AJ feud and specially the greatness delivered by Okabayashi and Daisuke all year long in different promotions.


I've watched the Strong BJ Vs ES(21/03) and the Strong BJ Vs Hama & Soya, but I've downloaded the whole rivalry.

So, here you have my top: 

1.WWE: Money in the Bank: John Cena Vs CM Punk
2.NJPW: Dominion 6.18: Hiroshi Tanahashi Vs Hirooki Goto 
3.NJPW: New Japan Alive: Hiroshi Tanahashi Vs Yuji Nagata 
4.NJPW: Destruction: Hiroshi Tanahashi Vs Tetsuya Naito 
5.AJPW: Pro Wrestling Love in Ryogoku Vol.13: Suwama Vs Jun Akiyama 
6.PWG: All Star Weekend: Night 1: Nightmare Violence Connection Vs El Generico & Ricochet 
7.NOAH: Shiny Navigation Day 9: Kotaro Suzuki Vs Katsuhiko Nakajima 
8.PWG: Kurt Russelmania II: Claudio Castagnoli Vs El Generico 
9.WWE: Summerslam: John Cena Vs CM Punk – Special Referee: Triple H 
10.NJPW: The New Beginning in Miyagi: Hiroshi Tanahashi Vs Satoshi Kojima


----------



## EffectRaven

*Davey Richards and Wrestling's Greatest Tag Team vs. Roderick Strong and The Kings of Wrestling - ROH: World's Greatest*

Talk about your forgotten MOTYC. I remember when this show was first released there were a number of posters on here praising this match. I haven't gotten around to watching it until now and it was thrilling. The heels were terrific in this in how they kept control of the match constantly working behind the back of the ref doing everything in their power to maintain advantage, their control segments were great. These great control segments led to several great hot tags, to Davey and Shelton specifically. Both of which were phenomenal and got the action rolling in a way that kept you on the edge of your seat. Each time the match would start to breakdown they all managed to keep the action exciting yet tame enough to follow and to set up the next control segment. Though there was one point where the referee counted a pin on someone who wasn't legal. This match all boiled down to the Kings and WGTT brawling to the back leaving Richards and Strong going at it one on one. These two just lay into each other brutally which was befitting of their longtime rivalry and in the context of Richards finally getting his hands on Strong after what happened at Final Battle. The closing minutes of the match were intense but not overkill in my opinion.

Really just a fantastic match. I guess nobody talks about it anymore because Haas and Benjamin are in it. But regardless, I loved this match. It managed to stay exciting the whole time despite its length. Great stuff from all involved. 

*****1/2*


----------



## Obfuscation

Seabs said:


> *Angle/Jarrett was bad.*


Hmm. Angle marks tricked me then. Fuck it.



Cactus said:


> Oh, this could be fun. My top 10.
> 
> 1. Cena vs Punk WWE MITB *****
> 2. Steen vs Generico PWG Steen Wolf *****
> 3. Steen & Tozawa vs Generico & Ricochet PWG ASWN2 ****3/4
> 4. Orton vs Christian WWE OTL ****1/2
> 5. Richards vs Edwards ROH BITW ****1/2
> 6. Tanahashi vs Nagata NJPW Alive ****1/2
> 7. Tanahashi vs Nagata NJPW ND ****1/2
> 8. Generico vs Claudio PWG Kurt Russel ****1/2
> 9. Generico vs Steen PWG BOLA ****1/2
> 10. Generico vs Claudio PWG BOLA ****1/4


Glad to see I'm not the only one who's pumping in a TON of El Generico matches from this year. I still have to watch his matches vs Claudio & finals vs Steen @ BOLA though. I'll get on it once I get some more free time in the next few days. 

As of right now:

1) CM Punk vs John Cena ~ WWE Money In the Bank ~ *****

2) El Generico/Ricochet vs Kevin Steen/Akira Tozawa ~ PWG All Star Weekend VIII Night One ~ *****

3) El Generico vs Kevin Steen ~ PWG Steen Wolf ~ ****3/4

4) Eddie Kingston vs Claudio Castagnoli ~ Chikara Creatures From The Tar Swamp ~ ****1/2

5) Eddie Kingston vs Mike Quackenbush ~ Chikara High Noon ~ ****1/2

6) Claudio Castagnoli vs El Generico ~ PWG Kurt RusselReunion II ~ ****1/2

7) Sara Del Rey vs Kana ~ Chikara Klunk In Love ~ ****1/4

8) El Generico vs 1-2-3 Kid ~ Chikara King of Trios 2011 Night Three ~ ****1/4

9) El Generico vs Pinkie Sanchez vs Zack Sabre Jr. vs Marshe Rockett ~ Chikara King of Trios 2011 Night Two ~ ****

10) Icarus/Chuck Taylor/Johnny Gargano vs Daisuke Harada/Atsushi Kotoge/Ultimate Spider Jr ~ Chikara King of Trios 2011 Night Two ~ ****

So withstanding a couple of PWG matches that I need to play catch up on, my list is set with only Chikara & Pro Wrestling Guerrilla. Not surprised. They rocked my fuckin world this year. Oh and that lone WWE match is pretty good too...amazingly epic. I took a lazy approach with Puro this year. Watched a solid amount but didn't take much note of it. Oh well.


----------



## geraldinhio

_I'm very sad with the lack of this match not in anyone's top 10. Watch it , it's awesome to say the least. It's one of Tyler's best matches ever . The storytelling was insane espically the story around Seth's avada kadabra finisher. The character dynamics are excellent and Ambrose playing the sadistic heel perfect. Not to mention great action from start to finish. Just watch it , I had it at ****1/2 + and higher than any ROH match. _


----------



## Obfuscation

I totally spaced on that. Another rewatch is eminent. You got it.


----------



## geraldinhio

_I'd say you would love Willie Mack too . Did you see any of his PWG matches yet ? Willie in Chikara is somewhat of a dream for me ._


----------



## Obfuscation

Actually no. 

I'm playing major catch up on PWG right now. A year without the net can set a guy back. I'm totally hyped to check him considering ALL the praise he has received. He works vs Generico too. That _has_ to be good. Right...? BOLA is the show on my list to see right now. Funny feeling some of those matches might make the list.


----------



## Bubz

geraldinhio said:


> _I'm very sad with the lack of this match not in anyone's top 10. Watch it , it's awesome to say the least. It's one of Tyler's best matches ever . The storytelling was insane espically the story around Seth's avada kadabra finisher. The character dynamics are excellent and Ambrose playing the sadistic heel perfect. Not to mention great action from start to finish. Just watch it , I had it at ****1/2 + and higher than any ROH match. _


Amazing match, it's not in my top 10, probably top 15-20 though wich is still great considering theres been a lot I've really liked this year and I've watched more wrestling this year than 09/10 combined probably lol.


----------



## seabs

HAYLEY AFICIONADO said:


> Actually no.
> 
> I'm playing major catch up on PWG right now. A year without the net can set a guy back. I'm totally hyped to check him considering ALL the praise he has received. He works vs Generico too. That _has_ to be good. Right...? BOLA is the show on my list to see right now. Funny feeling some of those matches might make the list.


*It's a fun match with some great comedy spots but it's in the middle of Generico having two of the best matches all year in one night and Mack having a fucking great match with Hero so it's not a great match because they had to hold back.

I'm with buxxx on Akiyama. Even in his prime I never cared too much for him and now that he's old and slow he's no better. Wouldn't say that he's bad but yeah I have very little interest in him.*


----------



## 777

Still a couple of weeks to go but here goes my list for this year. Strictly personal taste.

Kevin Steen vs El Generico - PWG Steen Wolf
El Mesias vs LA Park - AAA Triplemania 19
Randy Orton vs Christian - WWE Over The Limit
Davey Richards vs Eddie Edwards - ROH Best In The World
Hirooki Goto vs Karl Anderson - NJPW G1 Climax
Prince Devitt vs Kota Ibushi - NJPW Wrestle Kingdom V
CM Punk vs John Cena - WWE Money In The Bank
Zema Ion vs Low Ki vs Jack Evans vs Austin Aries - TNA Destination X
Dean Ambrose vs William Regal - FCW 
Undertaker vs HHH - WWE Wrestlemania 27


----------



## fallaway1988

Here is my top 10 as it has stood for the last week or so:

1.	Daisuke Sekimoto & Yuji Okabayashi vs. Seiya Sanada & Manabu Soya - AJPW 21/3
2.	Hiroshi Tanahashi vs. Tetsuya Naito - NJPW Destruction 
3.	Hiroshi Tanahashi vs. Hatoori Goto - NJPW Dominion
4.	Kotaro Suzuki vs. Katsuhiko Nakajima - NOAH 5/3
5.	Davey Richards vs. Christopher Daniels (Pure Rules) - ROH Manhatten Mayhem IV
6.	Takeshi Suguira vs. Go Shiozaki - NOAH 10/7
7.	Hiroshi Tanahashi vs. Satoshi Kojima - NJPW Wrestle Kingdom IV
8.	Jun Akiyama vs. Suwama - AJPW 23/10
9.	Jushin Liger vs. Great Sasuke - NJPW Best of the Super Jr’s 28/5
10.	Daisuke Sekimoto & Yuji Okabayashi vs. Manabu Soya & Ryota Hama - Big Japan 28/4

The ordering will no doubt change by the end of the year. Snapping at the heels of this top 10, I have Dick Togo vs. Gedo (retirement match), Steen vs. Generico (ladder match), Christian vs. Orton (Over the limit), Shinsuke Nakamura vs. Tetsuya Naito (G1 Climax Finals), and Yuji Nagata vs. Masato Tanaka (Zero-1 6/3). There’s probably not a lot I have left to see that is going to dethrone the AJPW 21/3 tag match from being my Match of the Year though.


----------



## Obfuscation

Seabs said:


> *It's a fun match with some great comedy spots but it's in the middle of Generico having two of the best matches all year in one night and Mack having a fucking great match with Hero so it's not a great match because they had to hold back.*


I'll watch it no doubt. Much the same with Mack vs Hero considering THAT is the one I've heard the most praise for from Mack up till this point. 

El Generico vs Kevin Steen ~ _PWG Battle of Los Angeles 2011 Finals_ ~ ****1/2

What is there left to say when these two lock it up? Less than 14 minutes and it tears down the FUCKING house. With all due respect to Kevin Steen, and even CM Punk in regards to how his year turned out, 2011 is and forever will be the year of El Generico. Ole. He's a f'n legend.


----------



## Bubz

*Quackenbush vs Kingston - High Noon*

Great fucking match! Amazing storytelling and drama here and I don't think I've ever enjoyed a Quack match this much. Kingston's promo before the match was so awesome and emotional, and he brought that into the match as well. The crowd was incredible, and so was Kingston's selling, I don't know if his leg is legit screwed but it seemed that way, but I know Kingston is a great seller so I wasn't sure. I don't think I've seen anyone as emotional about pro wrestling as Eddie and it shows how much it means to him.

The action was great, Quack acting a dick and using so many different holds on the leg and even poking Eddie in the eyes at one point wich got the crowd even more behind him. Quack dominated the match working over the leg, but Eddies comebacks were great and he got a shot in at Quacks leg and both guys started selling the legs amazingly well. There was an absolutely amazing moment when Kingston kicked out of the Quakcendriver at a 1 count and the crowd was going completely crazy for him. This was a really fun match and felt like a special moment. Something I love about Kingston is that when he's put in a submission hold or something, he always gets out of it using the simplest tactics, when I see someone in a submission and they stay there for ages struggling to get out of it and there is an obvious way out of the move, it kind of annoys me, so when King was getting out of these submissions by kicking or punching Quack in a really obvious way to escape the holds I thought it was great. It's just something little that I don't see many people do at all. Kind of hard to explain really.

The roster gradually coming out to see the match and cheer on Kingston with the crowd was amazing and really made this feel special and they were going crazy along with everyone else in attendance. *****1/2*


----------



## Obfuscation

^Phenomenal match up. Kingston's post match promo was GOLD.

Some more mentions atm. Two might not make my top ten list, but I'm sure Generico/Claudio II will.

1) El Generico vs Claudio Castagnoli ~ _PWG BOLA 2011_ ~ ****

2) RockNES Monsters vs Super Smash Brothers ~ _PWG The Perils of Rock N' Roll Decadence_ ~ ****

3) RockNES Monsters vs The Fightin' Taylor Boys ~ _PWG Steen Wolf_ ~ ***3/4


----------



## bigbuxxx

Claudio vs Generico @ BOLA: ****. Some general sloppiness and spots where it's impossible to suspend disbelief thanks to bad camera work. The match was very fun. The near falls were amazing and the finish was awesome. I marked so hard when Claudio caught Generico's crossbody and gave him a backbreaker, that was so fkn sick. Great great match. I would have given this infinity stars without the botch(es) and bad camera work.

NVC vs Ricochet/Generico: *****. Tons of storytelling, sweet spots, and hard hitting action that climaxed into one of the finest finishing stretches I've ever had the pleasure of watching.


----------



## peachchaos

Imagine four years ago being told that Daniel Bryan (Danielson) would be the WHC in WWE. Then imagine being told that he would not be involved in a single MOTYC. Strange days.

Anyone got a link to Quack/King?


----------



## Bubz

peachchaos said:


> Imagine four years ago being told that Daniel Bryan (Danielson) would be the WHC in WWE. Then imagine being told that he would not be involved in a single MOTYC. Strange days.
> 
> Anyone got a link to Quack/King?


Danielson will be having MOTYC's soon enough just like Punk is now . Hopefully they let him keep the belt past Mania, that would be fucking awesome, but knowing the E's booking it probably won't happen. They haven't given him anything to do this year at all and it fucking sucks.

Also, the whole show is in the media section, but not single matches. I downloaded the whole show and I enjoyed it but it's nothing amazing apart from Quack/King imo. Bucks/Colony is also really fun.


----------



## topper1

peachchaos said:


> Imagine four years ago being told that Daniel Bryan (Danielson) would be the WHC in WWE. Then imagine being told that he would not be involved in a single MOTYC. Strange days.
> 
> Anyone got a link to Quack/King?


Kinda hard to have MOTYC when your getting shit to work with. He is still the best wrestler in the world in the ring.


----------



## seabs

*He's only had 1 singles match on PPV all year and just 3 PPV appearances all year so it's virtually impossible to get MOTYC's out of 10 minute midcard TV matches. He's still having his usual *** match nearly every week though and if you made a list of the best TV matches this year he'd pop in about a third of them.*


----------



## bigbuxxx

CIMA, Ricochet, Akira Tozawa & BxB Hulk vs. Masaaki Mochizuki, Masato Yoshino, YAMATO & Shingo Takagi on 12/20: ****+. I don't watch DG often so I find it hard to give starz to their stuff but I'd be shocked if anybody went under 4 for this one. A good blend of wrestling and craziness.


----------



## topper1

Seth Rollins vs Dean Ambrose **** 1/4 
Really good would likely make my top 20 in 2011

Tanahashi vs Nagata Alive ***3/4
Huge letdown for me the work was solid but something was missing and the crowd wasn't doing them any favors. There match from April is top 3 this year for me.


----------



## bigbuxxx

HAYLEY AFICIONADO said:


> El Generico vs Kevin Steen ~ _PWG Battle of Los Angeles 2011 Finals_ ~ ****1/2
> 
> What is there left to say when these two lock it up? Less than 14 minutes and it tears down the FUCKING house. With all due respect to Kevin Steen, and even CM Punk in regards to how his year turned out, 2011 is and forever will be the year of El Generico. Ole. He's a f'n legend.


went the same on this one. i even loved steen picking on the 4-7yo kid with the generico mask. show the hate!!!


----------



## Obfuscation

bigbuxxx said:


> went the same on this one. i even loved steen picking on the 4-7yo kid with the generico mask. show the hate!!!


Yeah, I loved that too. It unintentionally added even more depth to the story. Fantastic.


----------



## seabs

*Daisuke Sekimoto & Yuji Okabayashi vs Suwama & Takumi Soya - BJW 18.12.2011*
_Yet another really good Daisuke/Yuji tag from this year and it's not even on the same level as the majority of their top tags this year. Agreed on the "would have been better with a Korakuen crowd" comment but in fairness you could say that for 90% of modern crowds, probably 95% if you exclude Reseda. Suwama was brilliant in this and he's probably had one of the most looked over years of anyone this year bar maybe Sanada. Still wouldn't say he's an amazing worker but he's delivered more than enough times this year. His evil little grin when the crowd started booing him was awesome and he worked this match really fucking well, just needed more co-operation from the crowd to go with it. Him and Sekimoto did a great job of building some hype for their singles match too. My biggest worry going in was that Soya would suck not being able to play FIP and have the crowd behind him but he did a tremendous job of switching things up and working heel without actually changing his game up much. His general awkwardness is what makes him so loveable but here it actually made him a great prick when he'd constantly be a pest and deliver cheap shots._

****3/4*

*Dick Togo vs Antonio Honda - DDT 30.01.2011*
_I'm a total dick for having left this off until now. Be meaning to watch it for silly time but finally got around to it today and I'm glad I did. Really good story and effectively played out. DDT are fucking kings at taking guys like Honda, Sato and KUDO and putting them into title matches and making stars out of them. Early arm work was great and Togo sold the fuck out of it. Loved how it came back into play later at the end too when Togo couldn't keep hold of the crossface. Transition spot was cool with Honda's rookieness costing him when he bounced his head off the floor off a suicide dive. Him bleeding added a lot to the match as well in terms of building sympathy for him and adding to his fire which was great. _

*****1/4*

*Dick Togo vs HARASHIMA - DDT 27.02.2011*
_Not quite as great as the Honda title match but again really good. Ring post spot was sweet and set up some really good selling from HARASHIMA. Shame that he kinda forgot about it once they went into home run territory though. The home run stretch in this was really great too and a great example of building drama for a finish and doing big kickouts effectively. _

******


----------



## Scavo

Here's the top 10:

1. Kevin Steen vs. El Generico (PWG Steen Wolf) *****3/4*
2. SUWAMA vs. Jun Akiyama (AJPW, 10/23) *****3/4*
3. Davey Richards vs. Eddie Edwards (ROH BITW) *****3/4*
4. Four Way For The Contract (TNA Destination X) *****3/4*
5. Finlay vs. Sammi Callihan (EVOLVE 9) *****3/4*
6. Fortune vs. Immortal (TNA Lethal Lockdown) *****3/4*
7. Go Shiozaki vs. Yoshihiro Takayama (NOAH, 9/23) *****1/2*
8. Young Bucks vs. Nightmare Violence Connection (PWG DDT4) *****1/2*
9. KENTA vs. Takashi Sugiura (NOAH, 10/10) *****1/2*
10. The Briscoes vs. Future Shock (ROH HTSC - Chapter I) *****1/4*


----------



## seancarleton77

My Top 11 of 2011

Cena vs Punk (WWE 2011/07/17) *****
Nakamura vs. Tenzan (NJPW) (2011/08/05) ****3/4
Sekimoto & Okabayashi vs. Suwama & Soya Takumi (BJW 2011/12/18) ****3/4
Rollins vs. Ambrose (FCW) [2011/09/18] ****3/4
Ishikawa vs. KUDO (DDT 2011/07/24)****3/4
Generico vs. Steen (PWG) [2011/10/22] ****3/4
Sanada & Soya Manabu vs. Sekimoto & Okabayashi (AJP 2011/03/21) ****1/2
Castagnoli vs. Generico (PWG 2011/01/29) ****1/2
Akiyama vs. Suwama (AJP 2011/10/23) ****1/2
Sasaki & Akiyama vs. Takayama & Omori(NJPW/AJP/NOAH 2011/08/27) ****1/4
Sasaki vs. Sugiura (NOAH 2011/07/23) ****1/4
Nakamura vs. Suzuki (NJPW 2011/08/13 ****


----------



## Chismo

HAYLEY AFICIONADO said:


> So two matches from Lockdown were worth seeing? Good for them. I need to see these for myself. (Angle/Jarrett as the other obviously)


God, no! Angle/Jarrett was bollocks. Rating: *** Such a bad structure, rules, storytelling, execution... It was baaad.


----------



## flag sabbath

Yeah, I grabbed Angle vs. Jarrett from the Megapost & it's horrible - dragged out, botch-ridden & over-booked, with two guys shortening their lives for a mostly dead crowd. Depressing stuff.


----------



## Chismo

Also, what's with the Akiyama hate? He's always the safe bet for a good match. And now when he's bald, he's BOSS! I marked out big time when he defeated SUWAMA for the Triple Crown. I guess some folks dislike him because of his serious style, but that serious style is what makes Jun so outstanding, plus he's one of the veterans who kicked ass in 90s. And shit, his matches with Shiozaki and SUWAMA are legit MOTYCs. Sure, he's kinda slow, but not in a bad way, he's just more methodic and smarter.


----------



## seabs

*I don't think it's hate, it's more lack of caring about him. Is for me at least. He looks silly now with head, like he lost it to cancer or something sad.*


----------



## Bubz

Seabs said:


> *I don't think it's hate, it's more lack of caring about him. Is for me at least. He looks silly now with head, like he lost it to cancer or something sad.*


:lmao

I like his bald head, looks badass.


----------



## Obfuscation

JoeRulz said:


> God, no! Angle/Jarrett was bollocks. Rating: *** Such a bad structure, rules, storytelling, execution... It was baaad.


It was in the MOTY candidates megapost so I wasn't sure. :$

Plus that useless Kurt Angle mark Dave Meltzer praised it. (don't care what he says, but if one gave it **** then maybe I'll see it to chime in my two cents)


----------



## Zatiel

topper1 said:


> Tanahashi vs Nagata Alive ***3/4
> Huge letdown for me the work was solid but something was missing and the crowd wasn't doing them any favors. There match from April is top 3 this year for me.


I agree on both accounts. The April match is the only great one from earlier this year that's completely held up for me.


----------



## dk4life

HAYLEY AFICIONADO said:


> It was in the MOTY candidates megapost so I wasn't sure. :$
> 
> Plus that useless Kurt Angle mark Dave Meltzer praised it. (don't care what he says, but if one gave it **** then maybe I'll see it to chime in my two cents)


he praised it? wow the match was really bad, even someone like me knew it was bad, overbooked and like other people have said, pretty much just shit! TNA has had a shit year!

anyway my MOTY top 10, still got Final battle to watch, and the most recent DG:USA ones to watch, but its shaping up like this:

Kevin Steen & Akira Tozawa vs El Generico & Ricochet - All Star Weekend 8 Night 1
Claudio Castagnoli vs El Generico - PWG World Championship - PWG Kurt RusselReunion II
Kevin Steen vs El Generico - Ladder match - PWG CHampionship - PWG SteenWolf
CM Punk vs John Cena - WWE Championship - Money In The Bank 2011
LDRS Of The New School vs Adam Cole & Kyle O'Reilly - wXw 16 Carat Gold Tournament Day 3
Davey Richards vs Eddie Edwards - ROH World Championship - Best In The World 2011
Randy Orton vs Christian - World Heavyweight Championship - Over The Limit 2011
Edge vs Dolph Ziggler - World Heavyweight Championship - Royal Rumble 2011
American Wolves vs Adam Cole & Kyle O'Reilly - No Escape
Akira Tozawa vs BxB Hulk - United We Stand


----------



## Obfuscation

Yep. I'm almost tempted to watch just so I can officially call him an idiot for praising it.


----------



## FITZ

Seabs said:


> *It's a fun match with some great comedy spots but it's in the middle of Generico having two of the best matches all year in one night and Mack having a fucking great match with Hero so it's not a great match because they had to hold back.
> 
> I'm with buxxx on Akiyama. Even in his prime I never cared too much for him and now that he's old and slow he's no better. Wouldn't say that he's bad but yeah I have very little interest in him.*


Generico dancing like a fool at the start of the match and ending in that absurd pose was the most hilarious moment. Just how long he stood there holding the pose looking ashamed of himself made it all so special. But yeah the match itself was pretty average. Generico's other 2 matches are MOTYC. His match with Claudio I think has the best botch ever as it made everything so much better and how pissed off it made Claudio probably made the match better than if they had the move right. 

So I'm open to adding some matches from Final Battle but for now here's my list. 

1. Eddie Kingston vs. Mike Quackenbush- so much has been said about this but my logic for putting it at the top is pretty simple. Never have I cared so much about 1 guy winning a match. 
2. Undertaker vs. Triple H- Undertaker locking in Hell's Gate at the end of the match was the most surpised I've ever been while watching something. I remember sitting there and thinking that there is no way in hell Undertaker is going to pull this off and then he went and did it. One of the best stories I've ever seen told in a ring. 
3. CM Punk vs. John Cena MITB- pretty self explanatory. Amazing match and amazing atmosphere. Had they just eliminated some of the botches this would be number one on my list. 

Now those are my top 3 in that order but there are plenty of other honorable mentions that are way too tough for me to put in order. 

Eddie Edwards vs. Roderick Strong (Manhattan Mayhem IV) Total mark out moment for me. 
Kevin Steen vs. El Generico BOLA (their ladder match probably makes the list too once I get around to seeing it)
Steen and Tozawa vs. Young Bucks DDT4
Steen and Tozawa vs. Ricochet/Generico 
ANX vs. Briscoes Center Stage Night 2
Future Shock vs. Kings of Wrestling Center Stage Night 2 
Generico/Claudio (both of their PWG matches)
Sami Callihan vs. Adam Cole CZW Night of Infamy 
Masada vs. Scotty Vortez vs. Devon Moore vs. Robert Anthony (Cage of Death from Cage of Death)
CM Punk vs. John Cena Summerslam 
Kings of Wrestling vs. LAX MMIV 

So that's what I was able to come up with off the top of my head. I'm sure there are a few matches that I'm forgetting. Also huge live bias with my list as I saw a majority of these matches in person. I rewatched a good amount of them on DVD though and still loved them so that should make up for some of that bias.


----------



## dk4life

HAYLEY AFICIONADO said:


> Yep. I'm almost tempted to watch just so I can officially call him an idiot for praising it.


Oh in that case, then yes go for it...btw Hayley williams makes me :faint:


----------



## Obfuscation

dk4life said:


> Oh in that case, then yes go for it...btw Hayley williams makes me :faint:


She's a force.

I have GOT to see this Sami Callihan vs Adam Cole match. It better be uploaded in the indie section on this place.


----------



## bigbuxxx

> Kings of Wrestling vs. LAX MMIV


this is a pretty slept on match so nice to see it on a list . i don't think it's one of the best but it's one of my favorite of the year. it's the only time i've ever seen Hernandez and he is a fkn beast.


----------



## bigbuxxx

seancarleton77 said:


> Nakamura vs. Tenzan (NJPW) (2011/08/05) ****3/4


Fantastic match and awesome crowd. So many gems in the G-1 tourney. The Anaconda Vice > counter > recounter had me marking out as it did the first time I saw this and Tenzan pandering to the crowd a couple mins later and eating a forearm just as he turned around was sick good. I'd def. go ****1/4+ for this.


----------



## Obfuscation

I'm watching that Nakamura vs Tenzan match RIGHT NOW.


----------



## Bruce L

*Daisuke Sekimoto & Yuji Okabayashi vs. SUWAMA & Takumi Soya - 12-18*

After really liking their 2/6 match against Sanada & Manabu Soya, and _loving_ the 3/21 second rematch, I've been completely burned out on the "Sekimoto & Okabayashi vs. AJPW" series; every installment has felt like the exact same match, and there've been what feels like a lot of installments.

This one was different, though. I'm hard-pressed to explain why; maybe it was because it happened in front of a Big Japan crowd, maybe because Suwama & Soya controlled enough of the match to vary it up in ways Sekimoto & Okabayashi didn't in All Japan. (Their two-man German suplex is still one of the stupidest spots I've ever seen.) Whatever the reason, this came off as a worthy successor to the best of the AJPW/BJPW feud. ****1/4


----------



## Obfuscation

~ Shinsuke Nakamura vs Hiroyoshi Tenzan ~ _NJPW 8/5/11_ ~ ****1/4

YES. Oh how did I miss this one? The string of Nakamura owning continues. Never have I loved a worker from Japan like this since Jushin Liger. This guy is so epic. Was great to see Tenzan in a match that felt big too. Sure, Wrestle Kingdom vs Iizuka was, but it seemed a majority of his work this year were whatever/throwaway matches. To me at least. Loved this crowd. The moment Nakamura's music hit, they went nuts. Then cut to Tenzan's, and man, he was so over. Already had a strong atmosphere. Get to the match and they don't waste much time at all. What a finishing stretch this had too leading into the Anaconda Vice, lift up, SIDE EFFECT BACK DOWN INTO THE VICE. NAKAMURA COUNTERS OUT OF THE VICE AND INTO THE CROSS ARM BREAKER IN THE BEST WAY EVER. :mark: Eventually leading up to Nakamura destroying Tenzan with the LEGIT punch followed by that harsh, but totally radical, KNEE TO DA FACE. Oh I had a lot of fun watching this one. Have to mention the LARIAT~! that Tenzan used to slightly kill Nakamura too.

All of this being done in the span of what, 14 minutes? Awesome. Nakamura's punch is probably my 2nd favorite move used in wrestling today behind El Generico's brainbustahhh. Safe to say he has the greatest rolling arm bar too. I was gonna get a hair cut tomorrow. Thinking of getting the Nakamura look to display my appreciation for how awesome he is.


~ Shinsuke Nakamura vs Tetsuya Naito ~ G1 Climax 2011 Finals ~ NJPW 8/14/11 ~ ****1/2

What a match. The story was clear here that you have the ever impressive and established heel in Nakamura vs the over, young, and hot Naito. It felt like it was his tournament to win to finally show how legit he can be as a top guy. Nakamura's heel moments such as kicking Naito in the head while he was down were fantastic. The heat that followed only made me even more giddy with joy. That's right, giddy. I was all in favor of having Nakamura control a vast portion of this match. Really showed how much both the crowd and Naito himself wanted this. He wouldn't let Nakamura get the satisfaction. It only made it that much better when Naito started to get his momentum and unleash his arsenal on Nakamura. Those german suplex were SOOOOO close to giving him the win. Man. If I would have been in the crowd, then I would have thought he had Nakamura beat too. Favorite part of the match was when NAITO STOLE NAKAMURA'S LEGIT PUNCH. Talk about holy shit excellent level storytelling. Nakamura was SO pissed. You saw him cock his fist and ready to unload until Naito blocked it and turned it into a beautiful cradle. I'm still pumped from some moments in the end. The BOMA YE to the back of the head literally made me jump out of my chair. WOW. Landslide couldn't even keep the kid down. All of that only to take the Boma Ye right in the face and that was it. Naito might have lost, but he left that looking like a million bucks imo.

My top 10 list has changed just from the last two days haha.


----------



## Bubz

Nakamura/Tenzen was a great match. Nakamura/Suzuki is my favorite match from G1 though and the only one I have rated over ****.


----------



## djmathers1207

CM Punk vs. Alberto Del Rio- Survivor Series ****


----------



## Obfuscation

Bubz said:


> Nakamura/Tenzen was a great match. Nakamura/Suzuki is my favorite match from G1 though and the only one I have rated over ****.


The crowd sucked me into the Nakamura/Tenzan match right from the start. Totally got into all of it. Might be my favorite match under 15 minutes from this year.

~ Randy Orton vs Christian ~ WWE Over The Limit ~ ****1/4

Wow. Such a strong performance by both men. Easily their best match. I loved how both were faces too. Gave it a stronger atmosphere imo. Wasn't ever for the heel turn for Christian in the first place. The call back to the springboard sunset flip countered into RKO was my favorite part of the match. That nearfall plus the SPEAR nearfall were two of the best of the year. Crowd went nuts.


~ Kevin Steen/Akira Tozawa vs Johnny Goodtime/Johnny Yuma ~ PWG All Star Weekend VIII Night Two ~ ****1/4

This was AWESOME. RockNES Monsters seriously might have been my favorite tag team this year. Young Bucks were the first to come to mind, but the more I see these guys, the better they get.


----------



## Rah

Before I finish up my list, would it be possible for anyone to give me a few recommendations to go through that I may have missed. I have TNA/WWE/PWG completely covered, a bit of NJPW (I went by Cactus' posts for the shows I didn't go out my way to watch, already) and some RoH.

For RoH, is DBD's Strong/Edwards match worth the watch, or anything after Best in the World, for that matter? I've noted a lot of praise for the Chikara High Noon Quackenbush vs Kingston match, too, but I am completely new to them (and, thus, do not know the story going in) so I fear I'd only be able to judge it on in-ring action and not give it the respect it would deserve. I'm also open to anything and any Fed, too.

MotYC aside, is there anything from Dragon Gate/ DG:USA from this year worth checking out? I followed DG:USA religiously in 2010, but sadly my RL, this year, has been too busy and I've hardly been able to get into wrestling as much as I'd have liked. I'm quite simple so anything with CIMA/Doi/Yoshino flipping around like monkeys on crack I'd be super happy with.

Thanks.(Y)


----------



## smitlick

Rah said:


> Before I finish up my list, would it be possible for anyone to give me a few recommendations to go through that I may have missed. I have TNA/WWE/PWG completely covered, a bit of NJPW (I went by Cactus' posts for the shows I didn't go out my way to watch, already) and some RoH.
> 
> For RoH, is DBD's Strong/Edwards match worth the watch, or anything after Best in the World, for that matter? I've noted a lot of praise for the Chikara High Noon Quackenbush vs Kingston match, too, but I am completely new to them (and, thus, do not know the story going in) so I fear I'd only be able to judge it on in-ring action and not give it the respect it would deserve. I'm also open to anything and any Fed, too.
> 
> MotYC aside, is there anything from Dragon Gate/ DG:USA from this year worth checking out? I followed DG:USA religiously in 2010, but sadly my RL, this year, has been too busy and I've hardly been able to get into wrestling as much as I'd have liked. I'm quite simple so anything with CIMA/Doi/Yoshino flipping around like monkeys on crack I'd be super happy with.
> 
> Thanks.(Y)


Strong/Edwards is ok but be aware that you may find audio problems with the match. Not sure if they were able to fix that for the DVD release. Watch the Ladder War from DBD though.


----------



## Bubz

I don't really follow Chikara but you don't need to know much about Quack/King, apart from Kingston has a screwed leg and just watch Kingstons promo before the match (promo of the year btw) and the video package. They don't really have a feud going on.

Eddie/Roddy DBD is skippable imo. Apart from the second fall of the match were Strong is awesome, the rest is just them hitting moves for the sake of it and throwing any logic out the window. The second fall of the match is great though and probably worth almost **** on it's own.

There has been nothing of note after BITW for ROH apart from the Wolves vs Future Shock match.


----------



## Rah

Bubz said:


> I don't really follow Chikara but you don't need to know much about Quack/King, apart from Kingston has a screwed leg and just watch Kingstons promo before the match (promo of the year btw) and the video package. They don't really have a feud going on.


I'll definitely get a hold of that, then.



> There has been nothing of note after BITW for ROH apart from the Wolves vs Future Shock match.


Thanks, will do. 



smitlick said:


> Strong/Edwards is ok but be aware that you may find audio problems with the match. Not sure if they were able to fix that for the DVD release. Watch the Ladder War from DBD though.


I had audio probs with my Black/Richards DBD match, too. Weird, but it doesn't hinder the match for me, really. Any excuse to mute the commentary will suffice. 

Was debating on watching that match, as well. I feel a bit bloated from my ladder fetish as late, and especially after Steen/Generico I don't see myself liking it as much as that, so I'll watch that after the other suggestions to give it a fair viewing.

Thanks for the recommendation.

EDIT: @Smitlick, I just saw your star ratings link in your sig. Going through your MotY list as I type this. I cannot believe I completely forgot about wXw's 16 Carat Gold. Damnit! Looking up "Akira Tozawa vs YAMATO - DGUSA Open The Ultimate Gate 2011", too.


----------



## Chismo

I'm not a fan of mixed top lists, because I think there is too much differences in wrestling styles and storytelling to put all those MOTYCs in the same bag. Therefore, I believe that every company deserves the Top 5 or Top 10 list for themselves. Here's my MOTY for every company I followed (on and off) in 2011 (I will do Top 3 for every company in 10-15 days):



Spoiler: MOTYs



AJPW - SUWAMA vs. Jun Akiyama (10/23) *****3/4*

NJPW - Shinsuke Nakamura vs Tetsuya Naito (8/14) *****1/2*

NOAH - Takashi Sugiura vs. KENTA (10/10) *****3/4*

SMASH - StarBuck vs. Fit Finlay (SMASH 23) ****3/4*

DDT - Dick Togo vs. Kota Ibushi (3/27) *****1/2*

Zero One - Munenori Sawa vs. Ikuto Hidaka (9/11) *****1/4*

TNA - Fortune vs. Immortal (Lockdown) *****1/4*

WWE - CM Punk vs. John Cena (Money In The Bank) *****3/4*

ROH - The Briscoes vs. The ANX (Honor Takes Center Stage - Chapter 2) *****1/2*

PWG - Kevin Steen vs. El Generico (Steen Wolf) ****** (MATCH OF THE YEAR)*

Dragon Gate USA - YAMATO vs. BxB Hulk (Revolt!) *****3/4*

EVOLVE - Fit Finlay vs. Sami Callihan (EVOLVE 9) *****1/4*



Sadly, I didn't watch too much Lucha Libre and Dragon Gate (Japan) this year to see their contenders, and I've never watched a single CHIKARA match (YT podcasts don't count).


----------



## bigbuxxx

Joe, everybody needs to see Shingo vs Tozawa from Kobe World Festival on 7/17.


----------



## flag sabbath

bigbuxxx said:


> Joe, everybody needs to see Shingo vs Tozawa from Kobe World Festival on 7/17.


It's one hell of a match, but you might want to bring your own crowd noise.


----------



## Chismo

bigbuxxx said:


> Joe, everybody needs to see Shingo vs Tozawa from Kobe World Festival on 7/17.


Yeah, I heard some great things about that one. I will watch because I'm a huge SHINGO mark, and Tozawa is growing on me too.


----------



## Rah

bigbuxxx said:


> Joe, everybody needs to see Shingo vs Tozawa from Kobe World Festival on 7/17.





JoeRulz said:


> Spoiler: MOTYs
> 
> 
> 
> AJPW - SUWAMA vs. Jun Akiyama (10/23) *****3/4*
> 
> NOAH - Takashi Sugiura vs. KENTA (10/10) *****3/4*
> 
> SMASH - StarBuck vs. Fit Finlay (SMASH 23) ****3/4*
> 
> Dragon Gate USA - YAMATO vs. BxB Hulk (Revolt!) *****3/4*
> 
> EVOLVE - Fit Finlay vs. Sami Callihan (EVOLVE 9) *****1/4*


Repped you guys, too. Thanks, looks like a whole heap more to go through before I finalise my list, then. I'm glad I found this section in the forum, actually, it's truly helped boost the quality of the wrestling I've gotten in to this year.


----------



## Corey

Here's a few recommendations that (sadly) no one else in here mentions at all really. Personally thoroughly enjoyed all of them.

*2/3 Falls - ROH Television Championship - *Christopher Daniels(c) vs. Eddie Edwards [ROH 9th Anniversary Show] - _****1/2_

PAC vs. Ricochet [DGUSA Freedom Fight 2011] - _****1/2_

*6 Man Elimination Match - *Johnny Gargano, Rich Swaa, & Masato Yoshino vs. Austin Aries, CIMA, & Brodie Lee [DGUSA Enter The Dragon 2011] - _****1/4_

PAC & Ricochet vs. Chuck Taylor & Akira Tozawa [DGUSA Open The Southern Gate] - _****1/4+ _(that one may be hard to enjoy if you don't know any preexisting stories)


----------



## dk4life

Jack Evans 187 said:


> PAC & Ricochet vs. Chuck Taylor & Akira Tozawa [DGUSA Open The Southern Gate] - _****1/4+ _(that one may be hard to enjoy if you don't know any preexisting stories)


your right I did forget about this Match, PAC and Ricochet just trying to one up each other, Tozawa trying to injury PAC for their match the next night (from memory, was it a head butt, that split PAC open, and looked like it really pissed of PAC?), and Chucky well just being awesome and getting back at Blood warriors wasn't it? That was an awesome match thou

shit will need to go and rewatch that show, cause CIMA/Gargano was also an awesome match from that night


----------



## Obfuscation

I'm not gonna bother with ROH, but I really should give DGUSA more of a look. Guys like Ricochet, Chuck Taylor & Gargano are awesome, then the abundance of AKIRA TOZAWA. I'll probably be a fan. Plus I heard Ricochet vs PAC finally had the classic match that everyone knew they could. That has to be one insane match given what could be seen.


----------



## bigbuxxx

Richards vs Edwards @ Final Battle: *****+. This match had everything and more.


----------



## Last Chancery

bigbuxxx said:


> Richards vs Edwards @ Final Battle: *****+. This match had everything and more.


Is there a point you're trying to make here, or are you just being an ass for the sake of it? You didn't like the match, you made that pretty clear in the official thread, even ripping on others who did. Again, what's the point in even bothering wasting your time on something you didn't like? Are you really going to sleep better at night tonight after letting everyone on here know how great a wrestling fan you are, and how shitty Ring of Honor is?


----------



## bigbuxxx

Actually I didn't rip on the match once and I spoke the truth about the moron in that thread praising everything. nobody wanted to hear that every 15 posts...


----------



## Beatles123

Cmon now, I know that was a shot at me, but I explained myself. So what if I did praise it a lot? I actually liked it. I'm not saying you have to agree. I just find it sad people were bashing it so much.


----------



## Obfuscation

~ Dave Finlay vs Sami Callihan ~ EVOLVE 9 ~ ****1/4

Easily one of my favorite matches of the year. Callihan's promo before the show helped make the story come off in excellent fashion. You knew that Callihan was trying to be like Finlay. You can tell. Throw in the callbacks of Finlay's work done by Callihan and holy crap. It's superb. More importantly it was damn impressive how Finlay's beatdowns & Callihan's charisma made the crowd want to root for him over the legend. You wanted to see this kid actually beat Finlay. Great, great stuff. Strong style wrestling with a ton of heart thrown in. How could one not love that? A dream match for me and yeah, it totally delivered. Was so happy to see Finlay put Sami over in the post match promo too. He's the man.


~ Sami Callihan vs Adam Cole ~ CZW Night of Infamy 2011 ~ ****

Another awesome match. Adam Cole's heel work here is great. He shines more-so in CZW than he does anywhere else imo. I don't have to say anything about Callihan. I've loved this guy the moment he started to become a major player on the indies. I know I might be one to have this match rated a touch higher than some. I thought it hit 4 stars. I rewatched it, and bumped it up. Had it originally at ***3/4, but I felt like the interference only made the story work better. Callihan was jipped back at Best of the Best. So here it was really another uphill battle. Combined with his cracked skull, the Boss DJ Hyde trying to screw him, and Cole's women Mia Yim sticking her nose in things, Sami had his work cut out for him. Taking them out one by one followed by him starting directly at Cole was SO great. Cole's reactions when he realized all of the aces up his sleeves are gone was fantastic. Played the coward role top notch there. Even better than Sami won via his patented Stretch Muffler, aka the move Cole stole to win BOTB with. Great moment for Sami being the guy to finally derail Cole's title reign here and win the big one in CZW. Props to a company that has been given a LOT of grief for them to make a match with the Junior Heavyweights feel major. Especially with both of them being hot young prospects for the future too. I loved that.

Oh and that piledriver by Sami on Mia Yim was INSANE. HOLY CRAP he killed her.


----------



## bigbuxxx

Beatles123 said:


> I just find it sad people were bashing it so much.


I will agree people complain way to much for something they don't have to watch and it was enjoyable.


Romero vs Devitt - 12/23: ****1/4. Spectacular. I'm not a huge fan of todays juniors but this match was fantastic.


----------



## Caponex75

I'mma check out the show. My opinion hasn't been high though since Davey moved to a mouthpiece.


----------



## Obfuscation

bigbuxxx said:


> I will agree people complain way to much for something they don't have to watch and it was enjoyable.
> 
> 
> Romero vs Devitt - 12/23: ****1/4. Spectacular. I'm not a huge fan of todays juniors but this match was fantastic.


At least I know someone loved it. It should be uploaded on Youtube soon. Most of the stuff makes its way on there within a day or two.


----------



## bigbuxxx

*******
Cena/Punk @ MitB
Castagnoli vs Generico @ Kurt Russell Reunion
NVC vs Ricochet/Generico @ ASW 8

*****3/4*
Tanahashi vs. Goto @ Destruction
Edwards/Richards @ BitW
Tanahashi vs Kojima @ WK V

*****1/2*
Shingo vs. Tozawa @ DG World Festival
Steen vs. Generico - Ladder match @ Steen Wolf
Takayama vs. Shiozaki on 9/23
Christian vs. Orton - Summerslam
Apollo 55 vs. No Remorse Corps on 10/10
Steen vs. Generico - BOLA
Nakamura vs. Naito - G-1 Climax final
Christian vs. ADR - ladder match - Extreme Rules
Nagata vs Tanahashi on 12/4



Spoiler: **** and ****1/4 matches



*****1/4*
Dragon Kid/PAC vs. CIMA/Ricochet @ DG World Festival
Tanahashi vs. Nakamura on 9/19
Shiozaki vs. Sugiura on 7/10
Tanahashi vs. Nagata on 4/3
Devitt/Taguchi vs. Ibushi/Omega on 1/23
Tanahashi vs Naito on 10/10
Suzuki vs. Nakajima on 5/3
Devitt vs. KUSHIDA on 9/19
Shiozaki/Sugiura/Taniguchi vs. Takayama/KENTA/Kanemaru on 9/11
Richards vs. Hero @ Only the Strong Survive
Nakamura, Tanaka, Takahashi vs MVP, Goto, Naito on 9/11
Hero vs. Claudio @ Eight
Devitt vs. Romero on 12/23

******
Claudio vs Generico @ BOLA
4 way tag @ BitW
Ladder War III @ DBD IX 
Tanahashi vs. Yano G-1 Climax Day 9 
BxB Hulk vs. Mochizuki @ DG World Festival 
MiSu vs. Sugiura on 5/8
Suzuki vs. Nakajima on 9/23
NVC vs RockNES Monsters @ ASW 8
Tanahashi vs Nagata - G-1 Climax Day 1
Christian vs Orton - Over the Limit


----------



## bigbuxxx

HAYLEY AFICIONADO said:


> At least I know someone loved it. It should be uploaded on Youtube soon. Most of the stuff makes its way on there within a day or two.


uploading it right now. should be up in 1.5-2hrs. will be here.


----------



## Obfuscation

:mark:

Can't wait to check it out.


----------



## FITZ

Well no MOTYC for me from Final Battle  The list I already posted is staying the same.


----------



## Chismo

HAYLEY AFICIONADO said:


> ~ Dave Finlay vs Sami Callihan ~ EVOLVE 9 ~ ****1/4
> 
> Easily one of my favorite matches of the year. Callihan's promo before the show helped make the story come off in excellent fashion. You knew that Callihan was trying to be like Finlay. You can tell. Throw in the callbacks of Finlay's work done by Callihan and holy crap. It's superb. More importantly it was damn impressive how Finlay's beatdowns & Callihan's charisma made the crowd want to root for him over the legend. You wanted to see this kid actually beat Finlay. Great, great stuff. Strong style wrestling with a ton of heart thrown in. How could one not love that? A dream match for me and yeah, it totally delivered. Was so happy to see Finlay put Sami over in the post match promo too. He's the man.


Yes, totally. Same here. It's probably not the best match in 2011, but damn - it's one of my favorites.


----------



## Obfuscation

Totally. I'm wanting to buy that show regardless of what else is on it, just so I can own that match DVD. So, so excellent.


----------



## geraldinhio

_Really no MOTYC from Final Battle? I havn't seen the show , don't think I'll go out of my way to either. 

I'd say Elgin/TJP was fun as hell and the perfect opener. The 3 way elimation match was better than expected so I heard. What was Corino/Steen like? Sounds nutty and brutal as hell but what happened post match intrests me more .Strong/??? intrigues me,hopefully they had a great match. If Davey/Edward was anything like their last match I'm staying away from it._


----------



## antoniomare007

That Final Battle main event was something else...it had everything you could use as a reason why indy style, specially in ROH, it's not fun to watch anymore.


----------



## Obfuscation

~ Seth Rollins vs Dean Ambrose II ~ FCW 8/28/11 ~ ****

~ Seth Rollins vs Dean Ambrose III ~ FCW 9/18/11 ~ ****1/2

yes. Yes. YES.

Barring the minor amount of detail I'll go into describing these, most fans need to see these matches. They're honestly brilliant. These guys go into the 33 minute mark for the third match and it didn't even come close to being stale or dull ONCE. Not at all. That's about the best quality to have when putting on long matches, tbhayley. I appreciate that SO much. Hear that Davey Richards? LONG MATCHES THAT ARE INTERESTING. Learn to do it or gtfo and never work past 15. 

Oh and for those who cared, I gave the first match in the series on 8/14 ***1/2. The escalation all three matches had were prime. Phenomenal work. WWE sure has some insane talent down in FCW right now.


----------



## seancarleton77

Steen vs. Corino was a solid 4 stars minimum. Having said that the second half of Finale Battle was like watching a pregnant woman take a beating. The co-main event was disgusting, unprotected chairshots galore and head scratching booking. The main event was completely aimless, nothing but "athleticism" and faux intensity, oh and DRAG! Richards vs. Edwards 3 had more drag than the New York City Pride parade


----------



## bigbuxxx

seancarleton77 said:


> Steen vs. Corino was a solid 4 stars minimum.


i thought it sucked and mostly because corino is terrible. partly because everything took a minute to set up and it was boring. idk what i'd give it in stars but i'm never watching that garbage again.


----------



## Concrete

I would give Steen vs Corino ****. I thought it was a great hardcore match with some really fun spots.


----------



## seancarleton77

Edwards vs. Richards 3 was match of the year, lol jk it was a dragging pile of shit.


----------



## mateuspfc

HAYLEY AFICIONADO said:


> ~ Seth Rollins vs Dean Ambrose II ~ FCW 8/28/11 ~ ****
> 
> ~ Seth Rollins vs Dean Ambrose III ~ FCW 9/18/11 ~ ****1/2
> 
> yes. Yes. YES.
> 
> Barring the minor amount of detail I'll go into describing these, most fans need to see these matches. They're honestly brilliant. These guys go into the 33 minute mark for the third match and it didn't even come close to being stale or dull ONCE. Not at all. That's about the best quality to have when putting on long matches, tbhayley. I appreciate that SO much. Hear that Davey Richards? LONG MATCHES THAT ARE INTERESTING. Learn to do it or gtfo and never work past 15.
> 
> Oh and for those who cared, I gave the first match in the series on 8/14 ***1/2. The escalation all three matches had were prime. Phenomenal work. WWE sure has some insane talent down in FCW right now.


Repped. I was astonished about how their matches flowed so well! I think I never saw a match where 30 minutes went by so fast!
I also thought the psychology and the callback to the previous matches, especially in the third match - which also gets ****1/2 from me - was top notch stuff. 
Great stuff, and really pumps me up about seeing Black and Moxley in the WWE as soon as possible, because they showed that they can shine.


----------



## Obfuscation

I knew I wouldn't be bored since I'm such a fan of both, but 30 minutes can be a tall task for some workers. They made it seem like it was nothing. Whenever talent is capable of that, man, it impresses me so much. You know you're doing something right when that happens.

The psychology and callbacks is exactly why I decided to watch them in order. As I said, the escalation that came from the first going 15, then the second going 20, followed by the third going the full 30 + 3 or so extra minutes only helped make the matches rise to higher levels. Bravo to those guys and more.


----------



## Ethan619

Love all of their matches. Watching them in order really helps as you can see the escalation from the first match to the third. Will be great to see them both called up to the main roster hopefully some time next year.


----------



## Chismo

HAYLEY AFICIONADO said:


> ~ Seth Rollins vs Dean Ambrose II ~ FCW 8/28/11 ~ ****
> 
> ~ Seth Rollins vs Dean Ambrose III ~ FCW 9/18/11 ~ ****1/2
> 
> yes. Yes. YES.
> 
> Barring the minor amount of detail I'll go into describing these, most fans need to see these matches. They're honestly brilliant. These guys go into the 33 minute mark for the third match and it didn't even come close to being stale or dull ONCE. Not at all. That's about the best quality to have when putting on long matches, tbhayley. I appreciate that SO much. Hear that Davey Richards? LONG MATCHES THAT ARE INTERESTING. Learn to do it or gtfo and never work past 15.
> 
> Oh and for those who cared, I gave the first match in the series on 8/14 ***1/2. The escalation all three matches had were prime. Phenomenal work. WWE sure has some insane talent down in FCW right now.


Yeah, the Rollins/Ambrose feud and matches were great. Btw, their storytelling, progression and booking in matches really reminded me on Black/Danielson stuff from 2009.


----------



## Obfuscation

I was kicking that over in my head during the second match. Especially when Black did the running powerbomb into the corner spot. I would have went nuts if the turnbuckles/ropes exploded a la Danielson/Black III.


----------



## jawbreaker

Man I need to find those Rollins/Ambrose matches. Tyler's always been good at those little callbacks, and Moxley seems like he's got one of the better minds for what makes a wrestling match good, so should be something I'm into.


----------



## Obfuscation

jawbreaker said:


> Man I need to find those Rollins/Ambrose matches. Tyler's always been good at those little callbacks, and Moxley seems like he's got one of the better minds for what makes a wrestling match good, so should be something I'm into.


----------



## McQueen

I don't know if I can put up with 1+ hour of Tyler Black.


----------



## Obfuscation

He's not Davey Richards.


----------



## seabs

*Still need to watch them Ambrose/Rollins matches. Think I'll just wait until I go through the whole year of FCW which I plan to do at some point if I get them on discs.*


----------



## McQueen

HAYLEY AFICIONADO said:


> He's not Davey Richards.


Good point, also I don't have fucking anything else to do. I should get drunk.


----------



## Obfuscation

I'd imagine Jon Moxley might be even greater while hammered. It's possible.


----------



## McQueen

Hes so goofy. Not Swagger "I can't take this guy serious" goofy at least.


----------



## Obfuscation

The best kind of goofy. That's how I would put it. Or refreshingly original. You can't figure him out. That's what I love.


----------



## geraldinhio

HAYLEY AFICIONADO said:


> ~ Seth Rollins vs Dean Ambrose II ~ FCW 8/28/11 ~ ****
> 
> ~ Seth Rollins vs Dean Ambrose III ~ FCW 9/18/11 ~ ****1/2
> 
> yes. Yes. YES.
> 
> Barring the minor amount of detail I'll go into describing these, most fans need to see these matches. They're honestly brilliant. These guys go into the 33 minute mark for the third match and it didn't even come close to being stale or dull ONCE. Not at all. That's about the best quality to have when putting on long matches, tbhayley. I appreciate that SO much. Hear that Davey Richards? LONG MATCHES THAT ARE INTERESTING. Learn to do it or gtfo and never work past 15.
> 
> Oh and for those who cared, I gave the first match in the series on 8/14 ***1/2. The escalation all three matches had were prime. Phenomenal work. WWE sure has some insane talent down in FCW right now.


_I told ya to watch this match just last week. Glad ya liked it. I was never a fan of Moxely but since he toned down his style he's pretty awesome.Tyler is great as usual , they just have awesome chemistry. I loved the story around Seth's avada jadabra finisher. So simple but yet so great.

While I'm posting here, Happy Christmas everyone. Take it handy. _


----------



## Obfuscation

geraldinhio said:


> _I told ya to watch this match just last week. Glad ya liked it. I was never a fan of Moxely but since he toned down his style he's pretty awesome.Tyler is great as usual , they just have awesome chemistry. I loved the story around Seth's avada jadabra finisher. So simple but yet so great.
> 
> While I'm posting here, Happy Christmas everyone. Take it handy. _


I took your advice, mate. Tremendous stuff.


----------



## geraldinhio

_FCW does have a few gems , not sure is there anything else worth watching though. Seabs will let us know once he's done. Hopefully Tyler/Claudio or Claudio/Moxely get a chance to tear it up ,it looks like Tyler and Moxely are getting called up so I won't complain._


----------



## Obfuscation

It's a fun promotion overall. I have a blast watching it whenever I do. Claudio teamed with Moxley in a 6 man match with Black on the opposing team. I still have to check that one out.


----------



## djmathers1207

Mercedes Martinez vs. Angel Orsini was an amazing match


----------



## dk4life

Dragon Gate: USA Fearless: PAC & Masato Yoshino vs. YAMATO & Akira Tozawa - Open the United Gate Title Match

This is such an awesome match, I'm a big Akira fan, and god how awesome has he been this year! the last 5 minutes are amazing, the whole match is pretty awesome and fast paced, loved it, fantastic finish. ****1/4


----------



## Bubz

*Steen vs Corino*
KEVIN FUCKING STEEN! Awesome entrance and pop for Steen, this guy is over as shit right now. Jacobs looks so gay . Wow! I was not expecting this! An absolute war right here, I expected a hardcore match but not to this level. Some of the spots were fucking ridiculous including the powerbomb on the chair in the corner of the barricades, the suplex on to the guardrail and Steen falling through two chars and a table! An awesome hardcore match and both men looked great in it. I was scared for these guys on occasion, especially with that barricade spot, that was crazy. The after match stuff was so great, they are really making Steen out to be an unstoppable beast of a monster and it's amazing. MOTYC easily, infact I almost liked this as much as Steen/Generico from last years Final battle. *****1/2* I can't be the only one to love this? Maybe I just wasn't expecting anything really good and they delivered above my expectations or something, but I thought it was awesome.

Everything else was basic for the first half and a fucking abortion in the secind half. What the fuck was that double main event? A fucking joke, thats what.


----------



## Beatles123

The Tag match itseelf wasn't bad. At least now WGTT aren't the champs so we don't need to hear those complaints anymore.


----------



## Chismo

Beatles123 said:


> The Tag match itself wasn't bad.


No, it was horrible and disgusting.


----------



## Obfuscation

You're gonna make that guy's head explode now.


----------



## Alan4L

Masato Tanaka vs. Tomoaki Honma is fucking INCREDIBLE!!! The heat is ganso.


----------



## ywall2breakerj

*Kevin Steen vs Steve Corino-Final Battle*
War~! This was fucking brutal. The Superplex on the guardrail is the sickest spot I've seen in a while, I didn't like how they used the chairshot spot considering it was the way Generico beat Steen last year but the Package Piledriver on the chairs made up for it.

******


----------



## peep4life

Steen vs Corino ****
Steen is one of the few reasons I still kinda pay attention to ROH. Man needs the belt now


----------



## Scavo

*Eddie Edwards vs. Davey Richards - ROH Best In The World*

I watched it for the second time, it lasts 36 minutes, and I'm not regreting it. This was a lot of fun, I liked the exchanges, especially the armbreakers by Davey. Those headbutts were kinda man up and die hard thing of theirs, so I'm cool with it. Both man were selling great and I have no problem with the finish, like others. For the second time I watch this match, I can see nothing wrong with match ending like that. Bottom line, a great stuff, plus there was no so much intensity from Davey-props for that, and dangerous MOTYC, and I think definitely for ROH.

*****3/4*


----------



## Beatles123

HAYLEY AFICIONADO said:


> You're gonna make that guy's head explode now.


I disagree with him, but meh.

What ruins it for me was that they had Shelton come back out selling the injury as a face. It nullified the heel turn and it was almost like the heel and face rolls changed over and over. 

The MATCH was fine, but some of the execution was off as far as playing the right roles.

See? I can be objective. 

I could go over lots of things I didn't like, but I enjoyed the event overall.


----------



## seabs

Beatles123 said:


> What ruins it for me was that they had Shelton come back out selling the injury as a face. It nullified the heel turn and it was almost like the heel and face rolls changed over and over.


*That's what you get when poor workers like Shelton Benjamin are forced to improvise during a match and not follow a script.*


----------



## ywall2breakerj

*Ziggler vs Ryder-TLC*

****3/4*


----------



## jawbreaker

Seabs said:


> *That's what you get when poor workers like Shelton Benjamin are forced to improvise during a match and not follow a script.*


that's also what you get when you write a terrible script and are forced to half-change it on the fly because it's so bad.


----------



## Scavo

*Cena vs. Punk - Summerslam*

Excellent match, nothing else to say, but not a masterpiece.

*****1/4*


----------



## seabs

*If the whole feud from BITW onwords had been with Briscoes as faces and a competent WGTT as the heels, then that match could have been pretty well laid out. Crowd would have pooped big for the callback spot and the babyface fighting with an injury spot is always good, as is the other babyface having to fight 2 on 1 before the injured babyface comes back out to a big pop. Different finish obviously. I do realise I've changed nearly every tangible in the build to the match to make the actual match itself work but you can see there was potential in the elements of the match for a great 80's style tag. They just got it so wrong.

Edit: In the same way actually Davey/Eddie could have been really good if they had a hot crowd. I get why the crowd wasn't any good and it was their fault but IF the crowd was hot .... Nevermind I can't even try to save that one.*


----------



## seancarleton77

Honma vs. Tanaka was easily ****1/4 and Devitt vs. Romero was almost as good as that match. Finally Romero is proving he is better than Davey, Davey never had a match that good in Japan.


----------



## topper1

seancarleton77 said:


> Honma vs. Tanaka was easily ****1/4 and Devitt vs. Romero was almost as good as that match. Finally Romero is proving he is better than Davey, Davey never had a match that good in Japan.


And Romero will never be in a match as good as the 2009 tag :gun:.


----------



## seancarleton77

Maybe not, but he will top every performance Davey has ever had by himself. Romero is just coming into his own, unlike when Davey tries to play the crowd and fails, Rocky owns them.


----------



## topper1

seancarleton77 said:


> Maybe not, but he will top every performance Davey has ever had by himself. Romero is just coming into his own, unlike when Davey tries to play the crowd and fails, Rocky owns them.


Maybe so but I've been watching Romero for about 7 years now and never been impressed and he has his work cut out for him if he's gonna pass Davey's work with Dragon,Hero,CC,KENTA,Daniel's in my mind I'm sure you don't give Davey any credit for his great single's work though .

I will say Romero might very well pass the current Davey which is quite awful.


----------



## seancarleton77

topper1 said:


> Maybe so but I've been watching Romero for about 7 years now and never been impressed and he has his work cut out for him if he's gonna pass Davey's work with Dragon,Hero,CC,KENTA,Daniel's in my mind I'm sure you don't give Davey any credit for his great single's work though .
> 
> I will say Romero might very well pass the current Davey which is quite awful.


I actually liked Davey before I started looking deeper into his matches. By the way Big Daddy V would have a good match with Hero or Dragon, that just proves Davey excels when a veteran worker takes control. Davey's best singles work has easily been his NJPW stuff, by the way. Davey's match with Shingo was one of the only times I thought Davey was the best guy in the match. The whole time we were ripping Tyler Black we should have sat back and realized he was something Davey will never be, a great wrestler.


----------



## Obfuscation

I've never thought Davey was better than Romero. Ever. But, I guess I need to rewatch that Romero/Devitt match or something because I wasn't blown away by it. I liked it. Good stuff. Didn't feel like a ****+ MOTYC or anything to me.


----------



## topper1

Big Daddy V might have a good match with them but Dragon was barely able to carry Romero at Steel Cage Warfare.

It take's two to tango. You can discredit Davey all you want the fact is he has some top notch matche's in single's and tag's.


----------



## Obfuscation

vs guys who dictated the offense. like Samoa Joe had some good matches with him. Tags w/Super Dragon vs Generico/Quicksilver too. I honestly can't think of one Davey Richards match that I would slate as "great" thanks to him.

(and I didn't like his match vs Danielson on the Final Countdown Tour either)


----------



## starship.paint

Seabs said:


> *Still need to watch them Ambrose/Rollins matches. Think I'll just wait until I go through the whole year of FCW which I plan to do at some point if I get them on discs.*


Don't forget Regal vs Ambrose on FCW.


----------



## jawbreaker

Romero had a couple good matches in ROH as Black Tiger in early 05, against Gibson I think (of course everyone had good matches against Gibson). Haven't seen much else out of him that I thought was great.


----------



## Corey

Seabs said:


> *If the whole feud from BITW onwords had been with Briscoes as faces and a competent WGTT as the heels, then that match could have been pretty well laid out. Crowd would have pooped big for the callback spot and the babyface fighting with an injury spot is always good, as is the other babyface having to fight 2 on 1 before the injured babyface comes back out to a big pop. Different finish obviously. I do realise I've changed nearly every tangible in the build to the match to make the actual match itself work but you can see there was potential in the elements of the match for a great 80's style tag. They just got it so wrong.*
> 
> _*Edit: In the same way actually Davey/Eddie could have been really good if they had a hot crowd. I get why the crowd wasn't any good and it was their fault but IF the crowd was hot .... Nevermind I can't even try to save that one.*_


I was just reading along and loled at that mistake. 

HAYLEY, you ever seen Davey vs. Ibushi from the 1st EVOLVE show? He was pretty damn great in that one. Obviously it wasn't all him that made the match, but he was quite impressive.

I must say, the only _great _matches I've ever seen in Romero's career was when he was in the Black Tiger gimmick. AWESOME match against Gibson at Manhattan Mayhem and a great one against Danielson of BOTASJ. He's never been anything special to me. Just a guy who can kick, do armbars, and AZUCAR!~ And he can't sell worth a shit. (See vs. Marufuji at Respect is Earned)


----------



## Obfuscation

Jack Evans 187 said:


> I was just reading along and loled at that mistake.
> 
> HAYLEY, you ever seen Davey vs. Ibushi from the 1st EVOLVE show? He was pretty damn great in that one. Obviously it wasn't all him that made the match, but he was quite impressive.
> 
> I must say, the only _great _matches I've ever seen in Romero's career was when he was in the Black Tiger gimmick. AWESOME match against Gibson at Manhattan Mayhem and a great one against Danielson of BOTASJ. He's never been anything special to me. Just a guy who can kick, do armbars, and AZUCAR!~ And he can't sell worth a shit. (See vs. Marufuji at Respect is Earned)


Nope. I'll check it out though. I've seen Davey in goodes matches, sure. (vs PAC from Manhattan Mayhen II for example. I saw lots say it wasn't special, but I thought that match was pretty awesome) I just for the life of me can't think of anything he's done that's been great.

Rocky Romero vs Roderick Strong @ PWG BOLA 2006 Night One & All Star Weekend V Night One. Watch them.


----------



## Ali Dia

Well in my opinion best Davey singles match is his match with Aries in 09, but then again Aries was the star of the match and thanks to him dictating proceedings the match didn't devolve into a strike fest or finisher fest. However I thought Davey played his role really well, nice comebacks, sold really well for him for about 85% of the match. I would say it was his best individual performance despite not being as good as Aries in the match itself.


----------



## Obfuscation

The championship match where Aries won via TKO?


----------



## Ali Dia

HAYLEY AFICIONADO said:


> The championship match where Aries won via TKO?


Yep. I loved that match. Aries broke Davey down start to finish, and despite weathering a storm or two, was able to put Davey down. I know I've seen mixed reviews for this but I was one who loved it and had it ****3/4.


----------



## Obfuscation

Saw it once back in 2009, so the rating is lost on me. I remember liking it for what it was. Already done with Davey by that time, but he did always work well vs Aries. Most always latch towards Davey vs Strong matches. Can't sleep on Davey vs Aries ones. They're always worth a watch too. Most of the time. I think it all goes back to how I've said, and you said about the particular match, if Davey isn't dictating the pace, it could work.


----------



## Chismo

Richards/Aries is very good, but overrated, IMO. I'd say ***3/4. Davey had better matches in 2009 than that one - vs KENTA, vs SHINGO, vs YAMATO.

Oh, and speaking of Richards/Ibushi from EVOLVE 1, that match was awesome(****1/4), MOTYC easily. Much better than Richards/Ibushi from ROH and NJPW. You could actually recognize Davey's game plan in this match.

Also, no way Romero > Richards. I mean, I'm a Romero fan and yes - Romero is probably more likeable, but he's worse than Davey, and Davey has a much better collection of quality matches and performances.


----------



## 777

777 said:


> Still a couple of weeks to go but here goes my list for this year. Strictly personal taste.
> 
> Kevin Steen vs El Generico - PWG Steen Wolf
> El Mesias vs LA Park - AAA Triplemania 19
> Randy Orton vs Christian - WWE Over The Limit
> Davey Richards vs Eddie Edwards - ROH Best In The World
> Hirooki Goto vs Karl Anderson - NJPW G1 Climax
> Prince Devitt vs Kota Ibushi - NJPW Wrestle Kingdom V
> CM Punk vs John Cena - WWE Money In The Bank
> Zema Ion vs Low Ki vs Jack Evans vs Austin Aries - TNA Destination X
> Dean Ambrose vs William Regal - FCW
> Undertaker vs HHH - WWE Wrestlemania 27


Should have waited till after FB. So long Taker/HHH, hello Steen/Corino.


----------



## Sunglasses

*PWG Championship - Ladder Match
Kevin Steen (c) vs. El Generico*
My MOTY so far. Every spot with the ladders, some were really brutal, made completly sense.
The run-in was perfect, but after that I felt like "hey, that's the end?". However, awesome.
*****1/2*


----------



## Obfuscation

JoeRulz said:


> Richards/Aries is very good, but overrated, IMO. I'd say ***3/4. Davey had better matches in 2009 than that one - vs KENTA, vs SHINGO, vs YAMATO.
> 
> Oh, and speaking of Richards/Ibushi from EVOLVE 1, that match was awesome(****1/4), MOTYC easily. Much better than Richards/Ibushi from ROH and NJPW. You could actually recognize Davey's game plan in this match.
> 
> Also, no way Romero > Richards. I mean, I'm a Romero fan and yes - Romero is probably more likeable, but he's worse than Davey, and Davey has a much better collection of quality matches and performances.


At least you commented on their ROH match. That was my least favorite of Ibushi's matches during 2008. (what a shock)

And nah. I'm gonna be the only person who thinks Romero is better. Oh and McQueen probably. Davey sucks for the majority. I swear he has to be carried in order to have something good. I'll say that a million times because that's what I always see.


----------



## bigbuxxx

I'm starting to be a Romero mark because he really makes himself stand out in njpw and is very fun to watch. all his trademark stuff and mannerisms make me <3 him.


----------



## topper1

HAYLEY AFICIONADO said:


> At least you commented on their ROH match. That was my least favorite of Ibushi's matches during 2008. (what a shock)
> 
> And nah. I'm gonna be the only person who thinks Romero is better. Oh and McQueen probably. Davey sucks for the majority. I swear he has to be carried in order to have something good. I'll say that a million times because that's what I always see.


Davey has far to many good matches to claim he has to be carried all the time unless his oppenents just so happen to bring it up a notch when going against him which is silly. Like I said it take's two to tango. Blind hate coming toward's Davey is all I see.


----------



## Obfuscation

Yeah, you're way off the mark with your assumption. Nice try though. Wait, horrible try. Let me guess, you're pretty big on Davey? Well, there we go. Get over it dude.

Oh and btw, I used to be the biggest fan of that guy when I first saw him. So yeah, I'M BLIND TO HATE SOMEONE I USED TO LOVE. OH MY GOD RIGHT? So stupid.


----------



## topper1

If you look a few page's back I pointed out that I don't care for Davey anymore and Romero might even be better then him right now so no not exactly a Davey mark.

Davey has had a shit ton of ***3/4+ matche's in his career your blind hating if you think he has been carried all those time's. AS I SAID IT TAKE'S TWO TO TANGO. He's not exactly working with Bret Hart in any of these matche's either well maybe Dragon but beside's that lol.


----------



## Cactus

Davey hate is a tad overblown, but I can see he has big faults in his ring work. He has all the physical abilities of a beast of wrestler, he just doesn't know how to structure matches right. It's sort of a hit and miss thing with Davey. He can have classics like the match with Ibushi at the first EVOLVE show or have trainwrecks like his match at Final Battle.


----------



## Obfuscation

topper1 said:


> If you look a few page's back I pointed out that I don't care for Davey anymore and Romero might even be better then him right now so no not exactly a Davey mark.
> 
> Davey has had a shit ton of ***3/4+ matche's in his career your blind hating if you think he has been carried all those time's. AS I SAID IT TAKE'S TWO TO TANGO. He's not exactly working with Bret Hart in any of these matche's either well maybe Dragon but beside's that lol.


Stop being stupid and claiming I'm doing blind hating. Newsflash, the only matches I've seen that I could say were really strong is *gasp* WHEN HE WASN'T DICTATING THE PACE. If anything, he followed along with the other guys in the match and it worked. Whenever he's on the offense it doesn't work. There are faults. I'm not saying he can't work. He isn't incapable of working a strong match. But, he has FAULTS. All because I can't get into his work I'm hating on him "blindly"? Fuck off, dude. That stuff is far too annoying for any one person to claim. You make it sound as if I've never seen anything from him. I hope you know that whenever I claim I don't like a Davey match, I also don't care for what his opponent in said matches did either. That means guys that I really enjoy like Danielson or Generico or etc, it goes on them too. Not just Davey Richards.


----------



## antoniomare007

And here I thought the days of debating about Davey were over


----------



## Obfuscation

So did I. Comments like that piss me off though. I don't care for Davey Richards. I'm sure someone else in this thread is a fan. They don't seem to care. Just drop it.


----------



## jawbreaker

I wouldn't say Davey's only capable of being carried but I can't say for sure that I've ever actually seen him carry anyone.


----------



## seancarleton77

Cactus said:


> Davey hate is a tad overblown, but I can see he has big faults in his ring work. He has all the physical abilities of a beast of wrestler, he just doesn't know how to structure matches right. It's sort of a hit and miss thing with Davey. He can have classics like the match with Ibushi at the first EVOLVE show or have trainwrecks like his match at Final Battle.


Best post on this subject, debate this post and you will fail. 

I was a fan of Davey once, and I think he's pretty good in Japan when he turns it up(BOSJ 2011), but he hasn't had many great matches outside of Japan in 2011, I'm trying to come up with more than 1. I loved his match with Eddie at first, but then I watched it again and it was like "It was really good, but come on, it wasn't anything better than that".


----------



## Obfuscation

I wasn't gonna debate anything Cactus said. I agree. I may have been overblown with the "carry job" line, but honestly, when he's on the offense I can't think of the match being more than decent. Much like you, SC77, I have a hard time coming up with a great match of his. Or like I said a page ago, one that wasn't a tag team match.


----------



## Yeah1993

topper1 said:


> Davey has had a shit ton of ***3/4+ matche's in his career


which ones? I'm not trying to prove you wrong or anything, but all the Davey I've seen isn't good and if there's actually great stuff of his out there I want to know what it is so I can watch it.


----------



## Rah

Maybe it's just me but Davey Richards Vs Tyler Black at RoH DBDVIII was simply amazing. As for his work in Japan, he seems sloppy then, to me. I don't mean to bash the guy, and he is one of my favourite wrestlers to watch, but when he steps in the ring he makes silly mistakes and just seems sloppy. Take his matches against Devitt, for example, those (imo) should be easy MotYC but they sucked. Okay, perhaps sucked is a bit strong, but for the names in that match they were very below par.

I won't argue, we all have our own differences in what we like, but what I will state, however, is that with his travel schedule I'm wondering if he even gets a chance to fully recover and if it's not just simply getting to him. I mean, one week he's in RoH then the next Japan for a couple then jetting back for a RoH PPV, again. This is, of course, applicable to the past few months (and with regard to Devitt/Richards) as I don't know his travel history before that, as I'm too lazy to follow his every move, but I'd be knackered and, as such, I cannot truly blame him for his mistakes at times. He seems to always try too hard, and when he does that he seems to make his mistakes/poor performances.

Anyway, it could be worse. Your RoH main event scene could comprise of Necro Butcher and/or Grizzly Redwood. Hell, noting how much Cornette backed Bennet, he could have been given a mega-push from the get-go and we would be stuck with bland main events (not criticising Bennet, just saying).

Is Davey the best wrestler? No. But are there a plethora of worse wrestlers? Yes. That said, I do enjoy fapping to his matches, whether he gets carried, carries or works a great match. Not sure why, I just do. There's just something about him...


----------



## Obfuscation

I'd rather see Necro Butcher over Davey Richards so that analogy didn't work for me.


----------



## Rah

Good sire, surely you doth protest?  

Well, I fucking hate Necro. The "omg a wrestling move" finish is just stupid and really put me off RoH in 2010. To each their own.

Anyway, I managed to watch *Sami Callihan Vs Fit Finlay* from Evolve. 

As much as I tried to hate it for being Sami, Finlay and Evolve I damn well loved it. It really was everything everyone posted about and then some. Hell, I'm sure I would have loved it even more if I wasn't forced to watch it hunched over and on such a small screen (I had to watch it on my phone as the TV at my holiday place decided to die :no.

It won't break any records, but it's somewhere in my top 20 easily, I'm sure.
***** 1/4*

Oh, and as for *Akiyama Vs Suwama (23/10/2011)*
:mark:
**** 3/4


----------



## Obfuscation

That match OWNS. Glad you enjoyed it.

That rounds out to make it in my top 3 personal favorite matches this year.


----------



## Rah

Likewise. 

Interestingly enough, I haven't watched anything from AJPW since Akiyama/Misawa. I really need to start watching it again. :\


----------



## Lane

Out of all the matches from this year that ive seen I have to say Eddie Kingston vs Mike Quackenbush and Sami Callihan vs Fit Finlay are 2 of my favorite, but, Christian Faith vs Vincent Nothing from AIW Absolution 6 takes the cake. Phenominal emiotion and match. They gave one another eveything they had and more.


----------



## Obfuscation

I feel the same way about Kingston/Quack & Callihan/Finlay.

Going with an obscure pick as your favorite, I can dig it. I remember reading about it in the Indie DVD/Discussion thread. Safe to say I'm about as familiar with either man as a casual WWE fan would be. I should use some more of my indie wrestling due diligence and see their work. Christian Faith had one match in Chikara circa 2008. That's the only reason I know of him.


----------



## Lane

Once I hit 10 post ill post the hype vid to the match. It was excellent work. They were probably the best tag team in Ohio for years, then Nothing quit to do MMA and Christian did some solo work for a few months then vanished and he popd back up in 2011 under the hood then lost in a battle royal and threw the mask down saying he wants to leave that in the past and be Ricky Shane Page from now on. Fast forward a few shows and after a match a guy wearing the Christian Faith mask hits the ring and stands behind Ricky. Ricky removes the guys mask and its Vincent under it, Faith tosses up his arm to do their pose and Vincent blast him with a lariat. They do some promo build up with Vincent saying he can either be Christian Faith or be Nothing at all and Faith feeling betrayd sayinf Vincent left him when he needed him the most. Pure raw emotion that seems so real.


----------



## Obfuscation

I'm interested in that. I remember the Ricky Shane Page name change too. You don't forget a name like that.


----------



## Lane

Yeah the name change was interesting haha, but hes been killing it all year long since his return with matches against Gargano, Dave Crist, and BJ Whitmer.


----------



## Obfuscation

Right on. Gargano is the man & I always latched towards Whitmer during his ROH run. I honestly thought he retired from wrestling when he seemingly disappeared in 2008.


----------



## Lane

He did retire but returned this year to wrestle in the HWA Heartland cup and he had another great match against Callihan at CZW Tangled Web 4. Now hes working on the reg for CZW,HWA, and AIW


----------



## Obfuscation

vs Sami Callihan? And this evaded me how? Well regardless how it turned it, I have totally got to see it.


----------



## Lane

Yeah theyve had 3 matches this year actually. 2 in HWA and the CZW one. That whole show is worth the watch besides the Mens Club USA aegment and Greg Excellent vs The Nigierian Nightmares.


----------



## Obfuscation

Awesome. I've always enjoyed watching CZW. Never hated it like the masses do. Especially with talent like Callihan & Cole there tearing it up, it's actually has some promise. Following 2007 it dropped down a bit, imo.


----------



## Lane

CZW is my favorite promotion actually haha. Cole and Callihan had a fantastic match at Night of Infamy this year and Sami lookd like a demon from hell after he piledrove Yim off the apron through a table then came up slowly moving towards the camera stareing coverd in blood with his hair a sweaty mess.


----------



## Obfuscation

Yeah, I did watch that one a few days ago. Loved it. ****. It might not make my top 10 list, but it's still damn good. One hell of a spot that was. Mia Yim took it like a champ. Sami Callihan is so boss. I honestly feel more should recognize.


----------



## Lane

Sami has been my favorite wrestler since 09. Dude is legit and goes all out every match. Yim is nothing to screw with aswell. Remember The Swichblade Consperiacy? Best. Group. Ever.


----------



## Obfuscation

Absolutely. Sami Callihan & Jon Moxley. Woah. Blown away. It's why part of me wished when Moxley was signed by WWE that Callihan would have went with him.


----------



## Chismo

I gotta admit, I didn't really like Callihan until 5-6 months ago, I thought he was fucking annoying, but after watching more and more DGUSA and EVOLVE PPVs and DVDs with Callihan's Dirty Ugly Fucks in action - he started to grow on me. I'm a huge fan now, I love his gimmick, his attitude, his in-ring work (tbh, I loved this part even when I hated him), his passion for the business. He's a great promo man too. Of course, everybody knows about the legit MOTYC with Finlay (one of my favorite matches), but he also had some other good matches.


----------



## seancarleton77

Sami takes one of the best beatings in all of wrestling today, he should always be the underdog, all of the best Sami matches are uphill battles (Finlay, Big Van Walter, Sekimoto etc.) however, the matches where Sami throws out 35 moves and doesn't stop are idiotic (Yoshihito Sasaki).


----------



## rafz

PWG DDT4
_Kings Of Wrestling vs. Kevin Steen & Akira Tozawa_
*****1/4*

PWG All Star Weekend 8 Night 2
_Akira Tozawa vs. Chris Hero_
*****1/4*


ROH Revolution USA
_Kings Of Wrestling vs. American Wolves _
*****1/4*

ROH Revolution Canada
_Eddie Edwards vs. Chris Hero_
*****1/2*


FCW 18/09
_Seth Rollins vs. Dean Ambrose - 30-Minute Iron Man Match_
*****1/4*

---

now is missing only some puro matches to finish my 2011 list.

I skipped the Generico/Steen matches because never really cared for Generico despite all those compliments, maybe I'll watch after seeing ther Final Battle match last year.


----------



## Lane

HAYLEY AFICIONADO said:


> Absolutely. Sami Callihan & Jon Moxley. Woah. Blown away. It's why part of me wished when Moxley was signed by WWE that Callihan would have went with him.


I still have faith that Callihan, also cant forget about Joe Gacey in the Swichblades haha


----------



## Lane

Sorry to double post but im at 10 post so I can now post links. Heres the hype vid to my MOTY. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UexGtweqTLk


----------



## Thomazbr

Lane said:


> Sorry to double post but im at 10 post so I can now post links. Heres the hype vid to my MOTY.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UexGtweqTLk


Some wrestlers should just stay masked


----------



## ddog121

EVOLVE 9
Fit Finley v. Sami Callihan ****1/2
Chuck Taylor v. Johnny Gargano ****1/2

Gargano v. Taylor is the most underrated match of 2011, I fucking loved this match.


----------



## Fighter Daron

Lane said:


> Sorry to double post but im at 10 post so I can now post links. Heres the hype vid to my MOTY.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UexGtweqTLk


Looks pretty good, any link for the match?


----------



## Concrete

ddog121 said:


> EVOLVE 9
> Fit Finley v. Sami Callihan ****1/2
> Chuck Taylor v. Johnny Gargano ****1/2
> 
> Gargano v. Taylor is the most underrated match of 2011, I fucking loved this match.


I don't think Gargano vs. Taylor got enough love either. I didn't think either match was as a good as you thought but that's okay. I didn't find Finley vs Callihan that awesome honestly. I had it at ***3/4. So I did like it quite a bit, just not as much as some others. No one seemed to care too much about Gargano vs. Taylor and I have no reason why. The match was great, I had it at ****. More of an Honorable Mention compared to a legit MOTYC for me but I still feel more people should have been talking about it but clearly damn Finlay was outshining it for some ungodly reason. That last part was sarcasm.


----------



## Chismo

Yeah, Taylor/Gargano was very good indeed, but not on a MOTYC level. I'd say ***1/2, easily. Finlay/Callihan, on the other hand - rocked, it's a legit MOTYC - ****1/4.


----------



## geraldinhio

*Kevin Steen vs Steve Corino - ROH ,Final Battle 2011.*
_This was everything I expected and then some. Just a brutal war with some sick spots. Great effort by both men who took some crazy bumps to say the least. My only gripe was it didn't have the clear face vs heel dynamic I think ROH were expecting. Was ROH really expecting Steen to be booed? If anything Corino should of played a subtle heel character. As many said , Steen's case is similar to Punk's. Come on , when you put Generico through the table and get a positive reaction and welcome back chats you can't be anysort of heel .

I know a lot complained about psychology , Crabtree complained about about Steen not selling the suplex on the guardrail. First off , psychology is pretty much thrown out the window for Fights Without Honor . see Final Battle's main event lastyear . Not that this is covering up for the lack of selling and psychology. Secondly it's the Indys and 90% bearly sell limbs and apply psychology to their matches. Generico , Kingston and Zack Sabre Jr are pretty much the only ones who come to mind and sell limbs and display immense psychology. 

This was just a simple story , of two people wanting to kill each other for their own different reasons.

Anyway I'd probably give it ****1/4 , just for the postmatch stuff too. _


----------



## seabs

*Forgot to talk about these Dragon Gate matches when I watched them a couple of days ago but here goes.*

*Naruki Doi, Naoki Tanizaki & Kzy vs Gamma, Shachihoko Machine & Chihiro Tominaga - Open The Traingle Gate Championships - Dragon Gate 19.11.2011*
_Sure this match isn't filled with star power like most Dragon Gate tags this year are but god this told such an awesome, easy to like and get into story. Shachihoko and Tominaga are basically young boys who rarely even get a spot on the main cards, yet alone a title match in the semi main who got the title shot with Gamma by virtue of the fabulous Doi Darts. Putting the two nobodys in there though rather than two JIII guys made it so much better because there's nothing better than rookie underdog story in the match and in the DG environment with the pace and atmosphere they can build up it works as good it can anywhere. Nice sub story with Shachihoko and his mask in the match and the final run was amazing with the crowd 100% behind the rookies and buying the near falls. Doi and Gamma are probably the most recognisable names in the match but I loved how they took a backseat too the rookies and even Tanizaki and Kzy and let them have all the shine._

******

*Naruki Doi, Naoki Tanizaki & Kzy vs Kenichiro Arai, Taku Iwasa & K-Ness - Dragon Gate 20.12.2011*
_Really fun 6 man. Wouldn't call it a must see match but for anyone's who a fan of the style should check it out. Really fast paced with loads of great double and triple teams. Arai in particular totally rocked._

*PAC & Dragon Kid vs Susumu Jimmy & Jimmy KAGETORA - Dragon Gate 20.12.2011*
_Really fucking good tag match. K-Hall crowd + Dragon Gate + 4 workers this good is always gonna be good and thanks to GAORA this actually got shown in the full (as did the whole show) so you could really appreciate how good the whole match was._

******

*Masaaki Mochizuki, Masato Yoshino, SHINGO & YAMATO vs CIMA, Ricochet, Akira Tozawa & BxB Hulk - Dragon Gate 20.12.2011*
_Nuts. Goes over 30 minutes but you wouldn't know it even went over 20. Gets shown in full which is an added bonus and actually made me even more pissed off that so much Infinity stuff gets clipped down because without clipping this was still incredible and even for the time, didn't drag one bit. Last 1-15 minutes are some of the craziest, most enjoyable wrestling you'll find anywhere all year. Did a great job of hyping the 3 big matches for the PPV too, especially Mochizuki/CIMA. 8 mans rule not only for the obvious reasons but also because it helps to cover flaws like selling and dragging because guys can just roll out to the floor to sell and there's always a fresh combination in the ring together and guys don't have to kick out of loads of big moves to get in nutty moves and finishers and keep the match going afterwards._

*****1/4*


----------



## Lane

Gargano vs Taylor was fucking awesome now that I think more about it. Daron ill look for a link to the match.


----------



## Caponex75

Yeah1993 said:


> which ones? I'm not trying to prove you wrong or anything, but all the Davey I've seen isn't good and if there's actually great stuff of his out there I want to know what it is so I can watch it.


To many matches to list so I'll just list the matches for this year alone

2011 Davey Richards 

vs. Chris Hero

vs. TJP

vs. Low-Ki

vs. KOW

vs. Roderick Strong(Twice)

vs. The Rockness Monsters

vs. The Young bucks

vs. Claudio Castagnoli(I thought this would be the absolute best match to show to a WWE scout outside of the botch and everything)

Vs. Christopher Daniels

Vs. Sami in the Gold tournament

Vs. Zack Sabre Jr

w/Briscoes vs. KOW & Strong

Vs. Colt Cabana(He carried the hell out of him)

His BOSJ 2011 was fantastic

w/Eddie vs. Future Shock

vs. Eddie Edwards at Best In The World




So yeah, Richards has had great or quality matches this year. I think he has just amazingly out of nowhere dropped in quality at some point but he was heading to WOTY worthy again. The whole mouth piece and other bs has been ripping his quality apart. In my opinion, Richards vs. Mack was depressing. Even though Willie Mack is sloppy as heck, most of that match was Davey deciding to work a routine match until maybe the last 2 or 3 minutes. This whole crap about Richards not knowing how to structure a match is hilarious. I'm guessing it was sheer coincidence that his world title matches when he was a challenger facing against Aries, Black, Strong, and Edwards were gold right? Get out. He is meh now but Richards about good something months ago was pulling out gold.

edit: Oh and Steen/Generico was insane. Though I, for some reason, want to say they got up to fast after those spots but the selling kinda makes up for it. I expect people to take a massive shit on it within the next year though.


----------



## GOD OF CUNT

Lane said:


> Sami has been my favorite wrestler since 09. Dude is legit and goes all out every match. Yim is nothing to screw with aswell. Remember The Swichblade Consperiacy? Best. Group. Ever.





HAYLEY AFICIONADO said:


> Absolutely. Sami Callihan & Jon Moxley. Woah. Blown away. It's why part of me wished when Moxley was signed by WWE that Callihan would have went with him.





JoeRulz said:


> I gotta admit, I didn't really like Callihan until 5-6 months ago, I thought he was fucking annoying, but after watching more and more DGUSA and EVOLVE PPVs and DVDs with Callihan's Dirty Ugly Fucks in action - he started to grow on me. I'm a huge fan now, I love his gimmick, his attitude, his in-ring work (tbh, I loved this part even when I hated him), his passion for the business. He's a great promo man too. Of course, everybody knows about the legit MOTYC with Finlay (one of my favorite matches), but he also had some other good matches.





seancarleton77 said:


> Sami takes one of the best beatings in all of wrestling today, he should always be the underdog, all of the best Sami matches are uphill battles (Finlay, Big Van Walter, Sekimoto etc.) however, the matches where Sami throws out 35 moves and doesn't stop are idiotic (Yoshihito Sasaki).


People were thinking I was smoking crack when I came in here defending Sami a few months back. Hopefully more people start turning the corner on the guy.


----------



## Caponex75

His look probably throws people off. I was saying that Sami was a good wrestler as well but it is hard for people to accept that when he looks like a ****** pirate hooker.


----------



## GOD OF CUNT

Man, fuck that. Wrestling needs more ****** pirate hookers.


----------



## peep4life

The few Sami matches I watched a couple years back turned me off of him so much I havent watched one since. Maybe ill watch Finlay beat the hell out of him


----------



## seabs

*Yeah Sami's by no means bad but he has so much stuff going against him, the look, the character, the screaming, the general unlikeness he has about him. Sadly they're pretty big drawbacks to have regardless of how tight a worker he may be. I've never hated him though for the simple fact that he's super over and he's a good babyface worker which put together = fun!*


----------



## mateuspfc

So I've watched Cena-Punk from MITB again and it's still ***** and the match of the year by a long shot... and a lot of people thought we would be lost without Taker-HBK.


----------



## rafz

AJPW 23/10
_Suwama vs. Jun Akiyama_
*****3/4*

NOAH 06/08
_Go Shiozaki vs. Jun Akiyama_ 
*****1/2*

NOAH 08/11
_KENTA vs. Kensuke Sasaki_
******

PWG All Star Weekend 8 Night 1
_Kevin Steen & Akira Tozawa vs. El Generico & Ricochet_
*****1/4*

PWG BOLA
_El Generico vs. Kevin Steen_
*****1/4*

PWG Steen Wolf
_Kevin Steen vs. El Generico - Ladder Match _
*****1/2*


----------



## Lane

Finlay beat the hell out of Sami yes, but Sami fuckd Finlays shit up with chops.


----------



## Emperor DC

Fuck Sami Callihan.


----------



## peachchaos

Finlay might be the most overrated worker right now. That being said, I respect the hell outta him and he always entertains.

Finlay-Callihan ****
Finlay-Steen ***1/2

Both matches focus on a distinct brutality that you rarely see anywhere outside of Dave's work. Its not my favorite style, since the tendency is for the actors to dramatize real pain instead of building drama through storytelling. Maybe I'm totally off there, but I found the match with Steen pretty lack-luster. Callihan seemed way more in his realm, as if he knew this was his big break and he needed to make every exchange legendary. And it was the stuff of legend, in a sense, showing why Finlay never broke lose in the mainstream and why Callihan will never be regarded as a major league talent: this is the best they both can do.


----------



## bigbuxxx

peachchaos said:


> Finlay might be the most overrated worker right now. That being said, I respect the hell outta him and he always entertains.
> Finlay-Steen ***1/2


first person besides myself that has said that or rated that match < 4 stars itt or the indy thread.


----------



## Lane

This dvd rip has the match im talking about in Faith vs Nothing.
http://www.desirulez.net/wrestling/328689-aiw-2011-06-26-absolution-6-dvdrip-x264-rudos.html


----------



## geraldinhio

Lane said:


> This dvd rip has the match im talking about in Faith vs Nothing.
> http://www.desirulez.net/wrestling/328689-aiw-2011-06-26-absolution-6-dvdrip-x264-rudos.html


_Thanks man , I've been wanting to see this match for quite sometime actually. I posted about it in here when I heard rave reviews about it. Think only Seabs has seen it.

Card looks really good anyway. The Marion Fontaine/ Shiima Xion/ Chuck Taylor and the Gargano/Tim Donst matches intrest me in perticular. _


----------



## Lane

The whole show is pretty good. Well worth the 15 bucks.


----------



## Rah

I've been following AIW, off and on, for quite a while now thanks to their Youtube channel. I'm not quite sure how I found it, perhaps one of the wrestlers I was in contact with, but I've been consistently impressed with most of what they put out. I'll definitely give it a look.Even if I'm not fully into that match, the rest of the card is pretty damn good, anyway.

I need to rewatch IPW Showdown In Naptown for the final two matches on the card (Jacobs/Moxley and Irish Airborne/American Wolves). They might just find their ways into my MotY lists.


----------



## Fighter Daron

Lane said:


> This dvd rip has the match im talking about in Faith vs Nothing.
> http://www.desirulez.net/wrestling/328689-aiw-2011-06-26-absolution-6-dvdrip-x264-rudos.html


Thank you so much, but it's offline.


----------



## Bubz

So since the new year is tomorrow, this is pretty much my fnal list (mostly in order, the second half might need some revising though). This is everything I have rated over ****, so ****1/4+ since I don't consider a 4* match a MOTYC.

Kevin Steen vs El Generico (PWG Steen Wolf) *****
Suwama vs Jun Akiyama - Tripple Crown (AJPW 23/10) *****
Kevin Steen vs El Generico (PWG BOLA) ****3/4
John Cena vs CM Punk (WWE Summerslam) ****3/4

El Generico vs Claudio Castagnoli (PWG BOLA) ****1/2
John Cena vs CM Punk (WWE MITB) ****1/2
Takashi Sugiura vs Kensuke Sasaki (NOAH 23/07) ****1/2
Claudio Castagnoli vs El Generico (PWG Kurt Russell Reunion II) ****1/2
Kevin Steen/Akira Tozawa vs El Generico/Ricochet (PWG All Star Weekend 8 Night 1) ****1/2
Chris Hero vs Akira Tozawa (PWG All Star Weekend 8 Night 2) ****1/2
Chris Hero vs Claudio Castagnoli (PWG Eight) ****1/2
Mike Quackenbush vs Eddie Kingston (CHIKARA High Noon) ****1/2
Go Shiozaki vs Yoshihiro Takayama (NOAH 23/9) ****1/2
Davey Richards vs Eddie Edwards (ROH Best In The World) ****1/2
Young Bucks vs Future Shock (PWG Steen Wolf) ****1/2
Go Shiozaki vs Katsuhiko Nakajima (NOAH European Navigation Night 2) ****1/2
Go Shiozaki vs Jun Akiyama (NOAH 06/08) ****1/2
Randy Orton vs Christian (WWE Over The Limit) ****1/2
LDRS Of The New School vs Adam Cole and Kyle O'Reilly (WxW 16 Carat Gold Night 3) ****1/2
Hiroshi Tanahashi vs Hirooki Goto (NJPW Dominion) ****1/2

Seth Rollins vs Dean Ambrose (30 minute time limit FCW) ****1/4 
Kotaro Suzuki vs Katsuhiko Nakajima II (NOAH Shiny Navigation) ****1/4
Davey Richards vs Christopher Daniels (ROH Manhattan Mayhem IV) ****1/4
Eddie Edwards vs El Generico (PWG All Star Weekend 8 Night 2) ****1/4
Davey Richards vs Zack Sabre Jr (WxW 16 Carat Gold Night 3) ****1/4
American Wolves vs Adam Cole and Kyle O'Reilly (ROH No Escape) ****1/4
Chris Hero vs Kevin Steen (PWG Kurt Russell Reunion II) ****1/4
Hiroshi Tanahashi vs Shinsuke Nakamura (NJPW 19/09) ****1/4
Chris Hero vs KENTA (WxW/NOAH Genesis Germany) ****1/4
Kings Of Wrestling vs Takeshi Morishima & Shuhei Taniguchi (NOAH European Navigation Night 2) ****1/4
Chris Hero vs Eddie Edwards (ROH Revolution Canada) ****1/4
CM Punk vs The Miz vs Alberto Del Rio (WWE TLC) ****1/4
Davey Richards vs Roderick Strong (ROH Honor Takes Centre Stage Night 1) ****1/4
Daisuke Sekimoto & Yuji Okabayashi vs Seiya Sanada & Manabu Soya (AJPW 06/02/11) ****1/4
Daisuke Sekimoto vs Ikuto Hidaka (ZERO-1 - 01/01/11) ****1/4
Kotaro Suzuki vs Eddie Edwards (NOAH 01/29/11) ****1/4
Jay Briscoe vs Roderick Strong (ROH Only The Strong Survive) ****1/4
The Briscoes vs ANX (ROH Honor Takes Centre Stage Night 2) ****1/4
Randy Orton vs Mark Henry (WWE Night Of Champions) ****1/4


----------



## smitlick

*Chikara - Martyr Yourself To Caution*

12 Large Summit
Eddie Kingston vs Fire Ant
****


----------



## ywall2breakerj

*KENTA vs Chris Hero (WxW/NOAH Genesis Germany)*

*****1/4*


----------



## Scavo

*El Generico vs. Claudio Castagnoli - PWG BOLA 2011*

A fantastic match. These two worked excellent together, they have a great chemistry and those reversals were unbeliavable. 

*****+*


----------



## rafz

My final list:

*****3/4*
_John Cena vs. CM Punk - WWE Money In The Bank
Suwama vs. Jun Akiyama - AJPW 23/10_

*****1/2*
_Go Shiozaki vs. Jun Akiyama - NOAH 06/08
Kevin Steen vs. El Generico - Ladder Match - PWG Steen Wolf
CM Punk vs. John Cena - WWE Summerslam
Eddie Edwards vs. Davey Richards - ROH Best in the World
Katsuhiko Nakajima vs. Ricky Marvin - NOAH 27/11
Eddie Edwards vs. Chris Hero - ROH Revolution Canada 
Chris Hero & Claudio Castagnoli vs. Takeshi Morishima & Shuhei Taniguchi - NOAH European Navigation Night 2_

*****1/4*
_El Generico vs. Kevin Steen - PWG BOLA - ****1/4
Roderick Strong vs. Eddie Edwards - ROH Manhattan Mayhem IV
Chris Hero & Claudio Castagnoli vs. Kevin Steen & Akira Tozawa - PWG DDT4
KENTA & Yoshinobu Kanemaru vs. Kotaro Suzuki & Atsushi Aoki - NOAH 25/05
Akira Tozawa vs. Shingo - Dragon Gate Kobe World Festival
The Undertaker vs. Triple H - No Holds Barred Match - WrestleMania XXVII
Seth Rollins vs. Dean Ambrose - 30-Minute Iron Man Match - FCW 18/09
Kevin Steen & Akira Tozawa vs. El Generico & Ricochet - PWG All Star Weekend 8 Night 1
Zack Sabre Jr. vs. KENTA - NOAH European Navigation Night 2
Christopher Daniels vs. Davey Richards - Pure Wrestling Rules - ROH Manhattan Mayhem IV
Chris Hero vs. KENTA - NOAH & wXw Genesis In Germany
Daniel Bryan vs. Sheamus vs. Kane vs. Wade Barrett vs. Cody Rhodes vs. Sin Cara vs. Justin Gabriel vs. Heath Slater - Money In The Bank Ladder Match - WWE Money In Te Bank
Chris Hero & Claudio Castagnoli vs. Davey Richards & Eddie Edwards - ROH Revolution USA
Takashi Sugiura vs. KENTA - NOAH 10/10
Akira Tozawa vs. Chris Hero - PWG All Star Weekend 8 Night 2
Jay Briscoe & Mark Briscoe vs. Kenny King & Rhett Titus - ROH Honor Takes Center Stage Chapter 2
Claudio Castagnoli vs. El Generico - PWG Kurt RussellReunion II: The Reunioning
Randy Orton vs. Christian - WWE Over The Limit
Roderick Strong vs. Jay Briscoe - ROH Only The Strong Will Survive
Chris Hero vs. Kevin Steen - PWG Kurt RussellReunion II: The Reunioning
Edge vs. Rey Mysterio vs. Kane vs. Wade Barrett vs. Drew McIntyre vs. Big Show - Elimination Chamber Match - WWE Elimination Chamber
Kotaro Suzuki vs. Eddie Edwards - NOAH The First Navigation 29/01
Hiroshi Tanahashi vs. Yuji Nagata - NJPW New Dimension 03/05_


----------



## Bruce L

Here's my top 30. I'm still missing a few of the year's supposed highlights, and have made note of them below.


30. Davey Richards vs. Christopher Daniels — RoH, _Manhattan Mayhem IV_ (3/19)


29. YAMATO vs. Austin Aries — DGUSA, _Mercury Rising_ (4/2)


28. Seth Rollins vs. Dean Ambrose — FCW, 9/18


27. Davey Richards vs. Chris Hero — RoH, _Only the Strong Survive_ (1/15)


26. Hiroshi Tanahashi vs. Toru Yano — New Japan, 8/13


25. Bad Intentions vs. NO LIMIT — New Japan, 5/3


24. Davey Richards vs. T.J. Perkins — RoH, _SoCal Showdown II_ (1/28)


23. Austin Aries vs. Johnny Gargano — DGUSA, _Fearless_ (6/3)


22. Takashi Sugiura vs. KENTA — NOAH, 10/10


21. Bad Intentions vs. Hiroshi Tanahashi & Hirooki Goto — New Japan, 7/3


20. Shinsuke Nakamura vs. Tetsuya Naitō — New Japan, 8/14


19. Claudio Castagnoli vs. El Generico — PWG, _Kurt Russellreunion II: The Reunioning_ (1/29)


18. Davey Richards vs. Roderick Strong — RoH, _Honor Takes Center Stage: Chapter 1_ (4/1)


17. Shingo Takagi vs. Akira Tozawa — Dragon Gate, 7/17


16. Bad Intentions vs. Go Shiozaki & Shuhei Taniguchi — NOAH, 10/31


15. Takashi Sugiura vs. Kensuke Sasaki — NOAH, 7/23


14. Masato Yoshino & PAC vs. Naruki Doi & Ricochet — DGUSA, _United: Philly_ (1/29)


13. Randy Orton vs. Christian — WWE, _Over the Limit_ (5/22)


12. Kota Ibushi vs. Ryusuke Taguchi — New Japan, 6/10


11. Eddie Edwards vs. Christopher Daniels — RoH, _Honor Takes Center Stage: Chapter 1_ (4/1)


10. BxB Hulk vs. Akira Tozawa — DGUSA, _United: Finale_ (1/30)


09. Alberto Del Rio vs. Christian — WWE, _Extreme Rules_ (5/1)


08. Seiya Sanada & Manabu Soya vs. Daisuke Sekimoto & Yuji Okabayashi — All Japan, 3/21


07. Hiroshi Tanahashi vs. Yuji Nagata — New Japan, 4/3


06. Kevin Steen vs. El Generico — PWG, _Steen Wolf_ (10/22)


05. Suwama vs. Jun Akiyama — All Japan, 10/23


04. Hiroshi Tanahashi vs. Hirooki Goto — New Japan, 6/18


03. John Cena vs. C.M. Punk — WWE, _Money in the Bank_ (7/17)


02. Hiroshi Tanahashi vs. Tetsuya Naitō — New Japan, 10/10


01. Eddie Edwards vs. Davey Richards — RoH, _Best in the World_ (6/26)



Major/acclaimed matches I haven't seen yet:
Quackenbush vs. Kingston
Castagnoli vs. Generico II (BoLA)
Steen vs. Generico (BoLA)
Anything from DGUSA that isn't on DVD yet


----------



## bigbuxxx

Bruce, have you seen Christian vs Orton from SSlam? I assume not since it's def. on the high side of a top 30 list. Check that out.


----------



## Bruce L

Yeah; it's one of a number of matches that could've made the list just as easily as a bunch of those that did. Definitely a great match, and a great blowoff for what ended up being the most under-sung feud of the year.


----------



## seabs

*I always find it amusing every year when the new year rolls up and people start posting final MOTY lists like they're not allowed to watch anything from the previous any more and add it to their lists.

Seen a lot of high listings for SHINGO vs Tozawa too from Dragon Gate. Those people should all watch Tozawa vs Mochziuki because that was much better and there's at least a handful of Dragon Gate matches this year which were comfortably better than SHINGO vs Tozawa.*


----------



## topper1

Seabs said:


> *I always find it amusing every year when the new year rolls up and people start posting final MOTY lists like they're not allowed to watch anything from the previous any more and add it to their lists.
> 
> Seen a lot of high listings for SHINGO vs Tozawa too from Dragon Gate. Those people should all watch Tozawa vs Mochziuki because that was much better and there's at least a handful of Dragon Gate matches this year which were comfortably better than SHINGO vs Tozawa.*


I enjoyed Shingo vs Toazawa quite a bit more on 1st watch granted I was in a bad mood when I watched Tozawa vs Mochziuki so my focus might not have been all there.


----------



## KingKicks

Seabs said:


> *I always find it amusing every year when the new year rolls up and people start posting final MOTY lists like they're not allowed to watch anything from the previous any more and add it to their lists.*


I've always thought the same. My MOTY lists will probably never be finished.

My top 10 for 2011 looks like this:

1. John Cena vs. CM Punk - WWE Money In The Bank - *****
2. Eddie Edwards vs. Davey Richards - ROH Best In The World - ****¾
3. Eddie Edwards vs. Chris Hero - ROH Revolution Canada - ****½
4. The Undertaker vs. Triple H - WWE Wrestlemania XXVII - ****½
5. Randy Orton vs. Christian - WWE Over The Limit - ****¼-****½
6. LDRS of The New School vs. Adam Cole and Kyle O’Reilly - wXw 16 Carat Gold Day 3 - ****¼-****½
7. Roderick Strong vs. Jay Briscoe - ROH Only The Strong Survive - ****¼-****½
8. Davey Richards vs. Zack Sabre Jr. - wXw 16 Carat Gold Day 2 - ****¼-****½
9. Christopher Daniels vs. Davey Richards - ROH Manhattan Mayhem IV - ****¼
10. Claudio Castagnoli vs. El Generico - PWG Kurt RussellReunion II - The Reunioning - ****¼

Still got all of the best PWG matches to watch (except for KRR2) and a lot of Puro, so I won't be finishing this list for quite awhile.


----------



## starship.paint

Seabs said:


> *I always find it amusing every year when the new year rolls up and people start posting final MOTY lists like they're not allowed to watch anything from the previous any more and add it to their lists.
> 
> Seen a lot of high listings for SHINGO vs Tozawa too from Dragon Gate. Those people should all watch Tozawa vs Mochziuki because that was much better and there's at least a handful of Dragon Gate matches this year which were comfortably better than SHINGO vs Tozawa.*


I liked Tozawa vs Mochizuki better as well...

Seabs any ratings from FINAL GATE?

Having watched WWE and Dragon Gate Japan...

****3/4
Cena vs Punk MITB

****1/2
Orton vs Christian OTL 

****1/4
SD Elimination Chamber
Mochizuki, Fujii {Z} vs Saito, Horiguchi {BW} — i208
Mochizuki, YAMATO, Takagi, Yoshino, Gamma {J3} vs CIMA, Doi, Tozawa, Kong, Hulk {BW} — i241

****
Mochizuki {J3} v Tozawa {BW} — i238
PAC, Kid vs CIMA, Ricochet — Kobe 2011
Takagi, Kong, Iwasa, KAGETORA {K} v CIMA, Kid, Ricochet, Gamma {BW} — DOA 2011

argh. I can't remember some of the other DG matches ><


----------



## seabs

starship.paint said:


> I liked Tozawa vs Mochizuki better as well...
> 
> Seabs any ratings from FINAL GATE?
> 
> Having watched WWE and Dragon Gate Japan...
> 
> ****3/4
> Cena vs Punk MITB
> 
> ****1/2
> Orton vs Christian OTL
> 
> ****1/4
> SD Elimination Chamber
> Mochizuki, Fujii {Z} vs Saito, Horiguchi {BW} — i208
> Mochizuki, YAMATO, Takagi, Yoshino, Gamma {J3} vs CIMA, Doi, Tozawa, Kong, Hulk {BW} — i241
> 
> ****
> Mochizuki {J3} v Tozawa {BW} — i238
> PAC, Kid vs CIMA, Ricochet — Kobe 2011
> Takagi, Kong, Iwasa, KAGETORA {K} v CIMA, Kid, Ricochet, Gamma {BW} — DOA 2011
> 
> argh. I can't remember some of the other DG matches ><


*Really disappointing end to a great year for Dragon Gate. 6 man was enjoyable and the tag was MOTN but nothing else was worth watching. Ricochet/Yoshino just didn't click and CIMA/Mochziuki was poor. Jimmyz tag was really underwhelming too and I hoped for that to be a sleeper MOTN.*


----------



## Bruce L

Seabs said:


> *I always find it amusing every year when the new year rolls up and people start posting final MOTY lists like they're not allowed to watch anything from the previous any more and add it to their lists.*


Speaking just for myself, by this point I've already seen pretty much everything from '11 that A)came highly recommended enough to pique my interest, or B) involved wrestlers I enjoy watching, with a few notable exceptions I took care to point out. I imagine it's the same for most people who make such lists this early in the year.

I'm obviously open to the possibility that at some point in the future I'll stumble upon some hidden gem from '11 that'll make me re-think my list, but I think I'm in decent enough shape right now to put something out there.



Seabs said:


> *Seen a lot of high listings for SHINGO vs Tozawa too from Dragon Gate. Those people should all watch Tozawa vs Mochziuki because that was much better and there's at least a handful of Dragon Gate matches this year which were comfortably better than SHINGO vs Tozawa.*


I thought Mochizuki/Tozawa was a damn fine match, but I greatly prefer Shingo/Tozawa. Thank goodness for Tozawa's awesome US indy tour; he's bringing back to Dragon Gate Japan genuine intensity (as opposed to just speed) and focus — two qualities, especially the latter, that I too often find lacking in D-Gate at home (at least in matches that don't involve YAMATO).


----------



## Chismo

*BxB Hulk & Akira Tozawa vs. SHINGO & YAMATO (Dragon Gate, Final Gate 2011)*

Epic, epic tag battle with 3 of my favorites. Tozawa is growing on me too. This was just brilliant. YAMATO looks soulless without hair.
*Rating: ****1/2*


----------



## Alan4L

Updated for 01/01 (New additions in bold) 

Including Dec 2010, Observer style. 

*WWE: *
CM Punk vs. John Cena (7/17) ****3/4
Royal Rumble (1/30) ****3/4
CM Punk vs. Rey Mysterio (6/19) ****1/2
Cena/Punk/Ryan/Sheamus/Air Boom vs. Ziggler/Swagger/Del Rio/Christian/Rhodes/Otunga (10/3) ****1/2
Alberto Del Rio vs. Christian (Ladder Match) (5/1) ****1/2
Undertaker vs. HHH (4/3) ****1/2
Alberto Del Rio vs. CM Punk (11/20) ****1/4
CM Punk vs. John Cena (8/14) ****1/4
Yoshi Tatsu vs. Tyson Kidd (Necklace On A Pole) (7/26) ****1/4
Smackdown Money In The Bank (7/17) ****1/4
Randy Orton vs. Christian (5/22) ****1/4
Usos/Barretta vs. Slater/Gabriel/Kidd (6/30) ****1/4
Randy Orton vs. Sheamus (6/10) ****1/4
CM Punk vs. Rey Mysterio vs. Alberto Del Rio (6/19) ****1/4
Smackdown Elimination Chamber (2/20) ****1/4
John Morrison vs. Sheamus (12/19) ****1/4
CM Punk vs. John Cena (8/22) ****1/4
Ziggler/Swagger vs. Sheamus/Ryder (11/25) ****
John Cena vs. Alberto Del Rio (Last Man Standing) (10/23) ****
Dolph Ziggler vs. Randy Orton (8/29) ****
Dolph Ziggler vs. Kofi Kingston (6/19) ****
Randy Orton vs. Christian (6/19) ****
The Usos vs. Slater/Gabriel (6/2) ****
The Miz vs. John Cena vs. John Morrison (Cage Match) (5/1) ****
CM Punk vs. Randy Orton (Last Man Standing) (5/1) ****
Kofi Kingston vs. Sheamus (Table Match) (5/1) **** 
David Hart Smith vs. Zack Ryder (4/28 ) ****
John Cena vs. Dolph Ziggler (12/20) ****
Alberto Del Rio vs. Kofi Kingston (2/20) ****
Raw Elimination Chamber (2/20) ****
Daniel Bryan vs. The Miz (2/14) ****
CM Punk vs. Rey Mysterio (5/30) ****
Yoshi Tatsu vs. Tyson Kidd (7/12) ****
Daniel Bryan vs. Tyson Kidd (8/5) ****
Raw Money In The Bank (7/17) ****

*Puro: *
Shingo Takagi vs. Susumu Yokosuka (10/22) (DG) *****
Kota Ibushi vs. Ryusuke Taguchi (6/10) (NJPW) *****
Mochizuki/Fujii vs. Maraha Isappa (2/6) (DG) *****
Suwama vs. Jun Akiyama (10/23) (AJPW) ****3/4
Shingo Takagi vs. PAC (10/21) (DG) ****3/4
Hiroshi Tanahashi vs. Tetsuya Naito (10/10) (NJPW) ****3/4
Masaaki Mochizuki vs. Yasushi Kanda (6/19) (DG) ****3/4
Hiroshi Tanahashi vs. Yuji Nagata (4/3) (NJPW) ****3/4
Kaz Hayashi vs. Minoru (1/2) (AJPW) ****3/4
Hiroshi Tanahashi vs. Hirooki Goto (6/18 ) (NJPW) ****3/4
Sekimoto/Okabayashi vs. Hama/Soya (4/28 ) (BJW) ****3/4
PAC/Dragon Kid vs. CIMA/Ricochet (7/17) (DG) ****3/4
Team Doi Darts vs. Gamma/Tominaga/Shachihoko (11/19) (DG) ****3/4
Yagi Bread Survival 10 Man Tag (11/4) (DG) ****3/4
Masaaki Mochizuki vs. Akira Tozawa (10/13) (DG) ****3/4
Sanada/Soya vs. Sekimoto/Okabayashi (10/23) (AJPW) ****1/2
PAC vs. Ricochet (11/19) (DG) ****1/2
Akira Tozawa vs. Shingo Takagi (7/17) (DG) ****1/2 
Blood WARRIORS vs. Junction Three (6/8 ) (DG) ****1/2
Shinsuke Nakamura vs. Tetsuya Naito (8/14) (NJPW) ****1/2
Hiroyoshi Tenzan vs. Shinsuke Nakamura (8/5) (NJPW) ****1/2 
Dick Togo vs. Kota Ibushi (3/27) (DDT) ****1/2
Maraha Isappa vs. Takagi/YAMATO (4/12) (DG) ****1/2
Sekimoto/Okabayashi vs. Sanada/Soya (6/19) (AJPW) ****1/2
Kotaro Suzuki vs. Katsuhiko Nakajima (3/5) (NOAH) ****1/2
Sanada/Soya vs. Sekimoto/Okabayashi (2/6) (AJPW) ****1/2
Sanada/Soya vs. Sekimoto/Okabayashi (3/21) (AJPW) ****1/2
Yuji Nagata vs. Suwama (4/9) (AJPW) ****1/2
Masato Yoshino vs. Don Fujii (1/18 ) (DG) ****1/2
Hiroshi Tanahashi vs. Satoshi Kojima (1/4) (NJPW) ****1/2
Prince Devitt vs. Kota Ibushi (1/4) (NJPW) ****1/2
Takashi Sugiura vs. Takeshi Morishima (12/5) (NOAH) ****1/2
Kings Of Wrestling vs. Takayama/Sano (12/5) (NOAH) ****1/2
Kings Of Wrestling vs. Morishima/Taniguchi (5/14) (NOAH) ****1/2
PAC/Dragon Kid vs. Maraha Isappa (6/19) (DG) ****1/2
KENTA/Kanemaru/Genba/Minoru/Kanemoto vs. Nakajima/Suzuki/Devitt/Taguchi/KAI (8/27) (ALL TOGETHER) ****1/2
PAC vs. Dragon Kid (10/22) (DG) ****1/2
CIMA/Gamma vs. Scurll/Haskins (10/22) (DG) ****1/2
Takagi vs. YAMATO vs. KAGETORA vs. Cyber Kong vs. Tozawa vs. Hulk (Mascara Contra Caballera Steel Cage Survival) (9/16) (DG) ****1/2
Takashi Sugiura vs. KENTA (10/10) (NOAH) ****1/2
Masaaki Mochizuki vs. Ryo Saito (11/3) (DG) ****1/4
Bad Intentions vs. Suzuki/Archer (11/6) (NJPW) ****1/4
Shingo Takagi vs. Ryo Saito (10/9) (DG) ****1/4
Sekimoto/Okabayashi vs. Soya/Suwama (11/19) (AJPW) ****1/4
Akira Tozawa vs. Naoki Tanizaki (10/22) (DG) ****1/4
KUDO vs. Hikaru Sato (10/23) (DDT) ****1/4
Sasaki/Nakajima/Miyahara vs. Sugiura/Morishima/Yone (8/24) (NOAH) ****1/4
Sugiura/Shiozaki/Taniguchi vs. KENTA/Takayama/Kanemaru (9/11) (NOAH) ****1/4
KAI vs. Kenny Omega (9/11) (AJPW) ****1/4
KAI vs. Hiroshi Yamato (8/13) (AJPW) ****1/4
Maraha Isappa vs. K-neSuka vs. AraIwa (8/25) (DG) ****1/4
Hiroshi Tanahashi vs. Shinsuke Nakamura (9/19) (NJPW) ****1/4
Daisuke Sekimoto vs. Kohei Sato (8/7) (Z1) ****1/4
KAI vs. Minoru (7/31) (AJPW) ****1/4
KENTA/Kanemaru vs. Suzuki/Aoki (5/25) (NOAH) ****1/4
Maraha Isappa vs. Mochizuki/YAMATO (8/3) (DG) ****1/4
Takashi Sugiura vs. Dave Mastiff (5/13) (NOAH) ****1/4
Katsuhuko Nakajima vs. Go Shiozaki (5/14) (NOAH) ****1/4
Minoru Suzuki vs. Yuji Nagata (1/4) (NJPW) ****1/4
Apollo55 vs. Golden Lovers (1/23) (NJPW) ****1/4
YAMATO vs. BxB Hulk (12/26) (DG) ****1/4
Daisuke Sekimoto vs. Ikuto Hidaka (1/1) (Z1) ****1/4 
KENTA vs. Naomichi Marufuji (12/5) (NOAH) ****1/4
Bad Intentions vs. Blue Justice (12/11) (NJPW) ****1/4
Hiroshi Tanahashi vs. Hirooki Goto (12/11) (NJPW) ****1/4
Satoshi Kojima vs. Shinsuke Nakamura (12/11) (NJPW) ****1/4
Shuji Kondo vs. Minoru (3/21) (AJPW) ****1/4
Hiroshi Tanahashi vs. Tetsuya Naito (12/12) (NJPW) ****1/4
Dick Togo vs. Antonio Honda (1/30) (DDT) ****1/4
Hirooki Goto vs. Tetsuya Naito (2/20) (NJPW) ****1/4
Kotaro Suzuki vs. Taiji Ishimori (3/21) (NOAH) ****1/4
Shuji Kondo vs. Kaz Hayashi (2/11) (AJPW) ****1/4
Hirooki Goto vs. Shinsuke Nakamura (3/6) (NJPW) ****1/4
PAC vs. Naoki Tanisaki (2/6) (DG) ****1/4
Yuji Nagata vs. Seiya Sanada (4/13) (AJPW) ****1/4
Dick Togo vs. HARASHIMA (2/27) (DDT ****1/4
Hiroshi Tanahashi vs. Shinsuke Nakamura (5/3) (NJPW) ****1/4
Yuji Nagata vs. Masato Tanaka (5/3) (NJPW) ****1/4
Masaaki Mochizuki vs. YAMATO (5/5) (DG) ****1/4
Ryusuke Taguchi vs. Taichi (4/29) (NJPW) ****1/4
Suwama vs. Yuji Nagata (6/19) (AJPW) ****1/4
Prince Devitt vs. Kota Ibushi (6/18 ) (NJPW) ****1/4
KAI vs. Shuji Kondo (6/19) (AJPW) ****1/4
Davey Richards vs. Kota Ibushi (6/10) (NJPW) ****1/4
KUSHIDA vs. Kota Ibushi (6/28 ) (NJPW) ****1/4
Go Shiozaki vs. Shuhei Taniguchi (5/8 ) (NOAH) ****1/4
Hiroyoshi Tenzan vs. Satoshi Kojima (8/14) (NJPW) ****1/4
Hiroshi Tanahashi vs. Toru Yano (8/13) (NJPW) ****1/4
Takashi Sugiura vs. Kensuke Sasaki (7/23) (NOAH) ****1/4
Tetsuya Naito vs. Togi Makabe (8/5) (NJPW) ****1/4
Hirooki Goto vs. Satoshi Kojima (8/5) (NJPW) ****1/4
Bad Intentions vs. Tanahashi/Goto (7/3) (NJPW) ****1/4
Masaaki Mochizuki vs. BxB Hulk (7/17) (DG) ****1/4
CIMA/Dragon Kid/Ricochet vs. Takagi/Cyber Kong/Iwasa (5/4) (DG) ****1/4
CIMA/Dragon Kid/Ricochet vs. Takagi/Cyber Kong/KAGETORA (4/24) (DG) ****1/4
Kota Ibushi vs. Ryusuke Taguchi (8/1) (NJPW) ****1/4
Masato Tanaka vs. Daisuke Sekimoto (8/7) (Z1) ****1/4
*Go Shiozaki vs. KENTA (11/27) (NOAH) ****1/4
Ricky Marvin vs. Katsuhiko Nakajima (11/27) (NOAH) ****1/4
Prince Devitt vs. Davey Richards (12/4) (NJPW) *****
KENTA/Kanemaru vs. Suzuki/Aoki (10/16) (NOAH) ****
Susumu Yokosuka vs. Masato Yoshino (10/21) (DG) ****
Akira Tozawa vs. Dragon Kid (10/21) (DG) ****
CIMA/Hulk/Doi vs. Scurll/Haskins/Lion Kid (10/21) (DG) ****
KENTA/Kanemaru vs. Aoki/Suzuki (8/24) (NOAH) ****
Apollo55 vs. No Remorse Corps (10/10) (NJPW) ****
Togi Makabe vs. Minoru Suzuki (10/10) (NJPW) ****
YAMATO vs. Akira Tozawa (No Rope/No DQ) (9/16) (DG) ****
Go Shiozaki vs. Yoshihiro Takayama (9/19) (NOAH) ****
PAC vs. Genki Horiguchi (10/16) (DG) ****
CIMA/Ricochet vs. Yoshino/Dragon Kid (10/16) (DG) ****
Kotaro Suzuki vs. Katsuhiko Nakajima (9/19) (NOAH) ****
KENTA/Kanemaru/Hirayanagi vs. Sugiura/Aoki/Ishimori (9/19) (NOAH) ****
Takagi/YAMATO vs. Tozawa/Hulk (8/21) (DG) ****
Munenori Sawa vs. Hayato Jr. Fujita (9/17) (Z1) ****
Prince Devitt vs. KUSHIDA (9/19) (NJPW) ****
Takagi/Yokosuka vs. Dragon Kid/Yoshino (8/6) (DG) ****
Ricochet vs. PAC (6/18 ) (DG) ****
Dick Togo vs. Gedo (6/30) (DDT) ****
Tozawa/Hulk/Cyber vs. Takagi/YAMATO/KAGETORA (7/24) (DG) ****
Suwama vs. Seiya Sanada (7/31) (AJPW) ****
Sekimoto/Takanashi vs. Omega/Nakazawa vs. HERO/HARASHIMA vs. GENTARO/Urano (7/24) (DDT) ****
Apollo55 vs. Golden Lovers (8/14) (NJPW) ****
Karl Anderson vs. MVP (8/14) (NJPW) ****
Karl Anderson vs. Minoru Suzuki (8/5) (NJPW) ****
Sekimoto/Okabayashi/Shinobu vs. Sasaki/Ishikawa/Kawakami (6/27) (BJW) ****
Yuji Nagata vs. Hiroshi Tanahashi (8/1) (NJPW) ****
Takashi Sugiura vs. Go Shiozaki (7/10) (NOAH) ****
Kowloon vs. Sekigun (Elimination Match) (6/5) (M-Pro) ****
Sekimoto/Okabayashi vs. The Brahmans (5/27) (BJW) ****
Jun Akiyama vs. Katsuhiko Nakajima (7/10) (NOAH) ****
Kota Ibushi vs. Prince Devitt (7/24) (DDT) ****
Masaaki Mochizuki vs. Shingo Takagi (5/12) (DG) ****
Dragon Kid vs. PAC (5/12) (DG) ****
Nakajima/Kajiwara vs. Suzuki/Aoki (7/23) (NOAH) ****
Karl Anderson vs. Shinsuke Nakamura (8/10) (NJPW) ****
Shinsuke Nakamura vs. Satoshi Kojima (8/2) (NJPW) ****
Hirooki Goto vs. Karl Anderson (8/7) (NJPW) ****
Togi Makabe vs. Hiroshi Tanahashi (8/7) (NJPW) ****
Hayato “Jr” Fujita vs. Koji Kanemoto (3/26) (NJPW) ****
Davey Richards vs. Prince Devitt (3/26) (NJPW) ****
Kota Ibushi vs. Ryusuke Taguchi (3/26) (NJPW) ****
Sekimoto/Tanaka vs. Hayato/Hidaka (12/11) (Z1) ****
Sekimoto/Okabyashi vs. Sasaki/Ishikawa (5/5) (BJW) ****
Taiyo Kea vs. Seiya Sanada (4/12) (AJPW) ****
Jun Akiyama vs. Seiya Sanada (4/10) (AJPW) ****
Taiyo Kea vs. Minoru Suzuki (4/9) (AJPW) ****
Masato Tanaka vs. Hayato Jr. Fujita (2/17) (Z1) ****
Daisuke Sekimoto vs. KAMIKAZE (2/17) (Z1) ****
Nakajima/Mashimo vs. Hulk/Fujita (2/11) (KO) ****
Masaaki Mochizuki vs. Ryo Saito (1/23) (DG) ****
Togi Makabe vs. Satoshi Kojima (3/6) (NJPW) ****
PAC/Shiisa vs. Dragon Kid/Ricochet (2/10) (DG) ****
Shuji Kondo vs. Kaz Hayashi vs. Minoru (2/6) (AJPW) ****
Masato Tanaka vs. Yuji Nagata (3/6) (Z1) ****
Hirooki Goto vs. Satoshi Kojima (12/12) (NJPW) ****
El Generico vs. Shinichiro Tominaga (1/3) (UNION) ****
Aoki/Marufuji vs. Kanemoto/Tiger Mask (12/24) (NOAH) ****
No Limit vs. Motor City Machine Guns (12/11) (NJPW) ****
CIMA/Yoshino vs. Doi/Gamma (12/21) (DG) ****
K-neSuka vs. Fujii/Mochizuki (12/21) (DG) ****
Maraha Isappa vs. Mochizuki/Fujii vs. Shingo/Cyber (12/26) (DG) ****
Yoshino/PAC vs. CIMA/Kid (12/5) (DG) ****
Kondo/KAI vs. Doi/Tanisaki (1/24) (DG/AJPW) ****
Taniguchi/Morishima vs. Sasaki/Nakajima (1/29) (NOAH) ****
Eddie Edwards vs. Kotaro Suzuki (1/29) (NOAH) ****
Golden Lovers vs. Jado/Gedo (12/26) (DDT) ****
Zack Sabre Jr. vs. Katsuhiko Nakajima (5/13) (NOAH) ****
Zack Sabre Jr. vs. KENTA (5/14) (NOAH) ****
Kings Of Wrestling vs. Morishima/Aoki (5/13) (NOAH) ****
Yuji Nagata vs. Shinsuke Nakamura (3/20) (NJPW) ****
Apollo55 vs. TAKA/Taichi (3/20) (NJPW) ****
Apollo55 vs. Richards/Romero (5/3) (NJPW) ****
PAC vs. Naruki Doi (5/5) (DG) ****
Madoka vs. Ryusuke Taguchi (4/3) (NJPW) ****
Sekimoto/Okabayashi vs. Numazawa/Kasai (11/22) (BJW) ****
KAI/Sanada vs. GET WILD (11/19) (AJPW) ****
Yuji Nagata vs. Tomohiro Ishii (11/12) (NJPW) ****
KAI vs. Kenny Omega (10/23) (AJPW) ****
KAI/Suwama vs. Akiyama/Marvin (10/10) (AJPW) ****

*PWG: *
Steen & Tozawa vs. The Young Buck$ (3/4) *****
Steen & Tozawa vs. The Kings Of Wrestling (3/4) ****3/4
Steen & Tozawa vs. Ricochet/El Generico (5/27) ****3/4
Kevin Steen vs. El Generico (Ladder Match) (10/22) ****3/4
The Young Buck$ vs. Future Shock (10/22) ****1/2
Claudio Castagnoli vs. El Generico (1/29) ****1/2
Kevin Steen vs. Akira Tozawa (12/11) ****1/2
The Young Buck$ vs. The American Wolves (3/4) ****1/2
Chris Hero vs. Akira Tozawa (5/28 ) ****1/2
Kevin Steen vs. El Generico (8/20) ****1/2
Claudio Castagnoli vs. El Generico (8/20) ****1/4
Kevin Steen vs. Eddie Edwards (8/20) ****1/4
Eddie Edwards vs. El Generico (5/28 ) ****1/4
Ricochet & El Generico vs. The Young Buck$ (4/9) ****1/4
Steen & Tozawa vs. The Briscoes (3/4) ****1/4
Kevin Steen vs. Chris Hero (1/29) ****1/4
Davey Richards vs. Low Ki (1/29) ****1/4
Peligro Abejas vs. Kings Of Wrestling (12/11) ****1/4
The Young Buck$ vs. Ryan/Sky (9/10) ****1/4
Kevin Steen vs. Davey Richards (9/10) ****1/4
Willie Mack vs. Davey Richards (10/22) ****
RockNES Monsters vs. Fighting Taylor Boys (10/22) ****
The Dynasty vs. Los Luchas (10/22) ****
Super Smash Bros vs. RockNES Monsters (9/10) ****
Alex Shelley vs. Eddie Edwards (5/27) ****
Chris Hero vs. Willie Mack (8/20) ****
PAC vs. Kevin Steen (7/23) ****
Young Buck$ vs. Fighting Taylor Boys (12/11) ****
Roderick Strong vs. Willie Mack (4/9) ****
The Young Buck$ vs. The RockNES Monsters (5/27) ****
Steen & Tozawa vs. RockNES Monsters (5/28 ) ****


*DGUSA/EVOLVE: *
Dave Finlay vs. Sami Callihan (7/26) ****1/2
*Ricochet/CIMA/Tozawa vs. PAC/Swann/Fox (9/9) ****1/2*
Tozawa/Taylor vs. PAC/Ricochet (4/1) ****1/2
Akira Tozawa vs. PAC (4/2) ****1/2
YAMATO vs. Austin Aries (4/2) ****1/2
Akira Tozawa vs. BxB Hulk (1/30) ****1/2
PAC vs. Ricochet vs. Rich Swann (6/4) ****1/2
Akira Tozawa vs. AR Fox (6/4) ****1/2
YAMATO vs. Johnny Gargano (11/13) ****1/4
PAC vs. Ricochet (11/13) ****1/4
PAC/Yoshino vs. CIMA/Ricochet (9/11) ****1/4
Zack Sabre Jr. vs. Sami Callihan (4/19) ****1/4
PAC/Yoshino vs. Doi/Ricochet (1/29) ****1/4
CIMA vs. Johnny Gargano (4/1) ****1/4
YAMATO vs. PAC (6/5) ****1/4
PAC vs. Brodie Lee (11/12) ****
YAMATO vs. CIMA (9/10) ****
Gargano/Swann/Yoshino vs. Brodie/CIMA/Aries (6/5) ****
Cannon/Callihan vs. Yokosuka/Mochizuki (6/5) ****
Akira Tozawa vs. Austin Aries (1/29) ****
Chuck Taylor vs. Akira Tozawa (4/19) ****
Ronin vs. CIMA/Doi/Ricochet (4/2) ****
Ronin vs. Doi/Ricochet (1/28) ****
Ronin vs. CIMA/Dragon Kid (1/29) ****
Ronin vs. Aries/Horiguchi/Ricochet (1/7 airdate) ****


*ROH: *
Kevin Steen vs. El Generico (Fight Without Honour) (12/18 ) ****3/4
Eddie Edwards vs. Davey Richards (6/26) ****3/4
The Briscoes vs. The All Night Express (Ladder War) (9/17) ****1/2
American Wolves vs. Future Shock (7/9) ****1/2
The Briscoes vs. The All Night Express (Street Fight) (5/21) ****1/2
Roderick Strong vs. Eddie Edwards (3/19) ****1/2
Roderick Strong vs. Davey Richards (12/18 ) ****1/2
Kings Of Wrestling vs. American Wolves (12/17) ****1/2
The Briscoes vs. The All Night Express (4/2) ****1/4
Kings Of Wrestling vs. Cole/O’Reilly (4/2) ****1/4
Kings Of Wrestling vs. Haas & Benjamin (4/1) ****1/4
Davey Richards vs. TJ Perkins (1/28 ) ****1/4
Jay Briscoe vs. Roderick Strong (1/15) ****1/4
Kings Of Wrestling vs. American Wolves (5/6) ****1/4
The Young Buck$ vs. Cole/O’Reilly (6/26) ****1/4
Eddie Edwards vs. Chris Hero (5/7) ****1/4
Roderick Strong vs. Eddie Edwards (9/17) ****1/4
The Bravados vs. The Young Buck$ vs. Future Shock (9/17) ****
Claudio Castagnoli vs. Kyle O’Reilly (5/7) ****
Davey Richards vs. Claudio Castagnoli (3/18 ) ****
Kings Of Wrestling vs. LAX (3/19) ****
The Briscoes vs. Cole/O’Reilly (4/1) ****
Eddie Edwards vs. Christopher Daniels (4/1) ****
Davey Richards vs. Roderick Strong (4/1) ****
Haze/Nakagawa vs. Kurihara/Matsumoto (4/2) ****
Jay Briscoe vs. Kyle O’Reilly (2/25) ****
Eddie Edwards vs. Kenny King (2/25) ****
All Night Express vs. Cole/O’Reilly (12/18 ) ****
Kyle O’Reilly vs. TJ Perkins (12/17) ****

*wXw:*
Daisuke Sekimoto vs. El Generico (3/13) ****3/4
Leaders vs. Cole & O’Reilly (3/13) ****3/4
Davey Richards vs. Zack Sabre Jr. (3/12) ****3/4
Chris Hero vs. KENTA (5/15) ****1/2
Leaders vs. Cole & O’Reilly (4/9) ****1/4
Chris Hero vs. Daisuke Sekimoto (4/9) ****1/4
Chris Hero vs. Zack Sabre Jr. (4/10) ****1/4
Go Shiozaki vs. Johnny Moss (3/11) ****1/4
Go Shiozaki vs. Big Van Walter (3/11) ****1/4
Sami Callihan vs. Big Van Walter (3/13) ****1/4
Sami Callihan vs. Tommy End (3/11) ****1/4
Daisuke Sekimoto vs. Bad Bones (3/11) ****1/4
Cole & O’Reilly vs. Generico/Sitoci (3/12) ****
Go Shiozaki vs. Kotaro Suzuki (3/12) ****
El Generico vs. Kotaro Suzuki (3/11) ****
Davey Richards vs. Jon Ryan (3/11) ****
Colt Cabana vs. Marty Scurll (3/12) ****
Moss/Sekimoto vs. The Briscoes (4/10) ****
Ricky Marvin vs. Katsuhiko Nakajima (5/15) ****

*Other:*
Seth Rollins vs. Dean Ambrose (9/18 ) (FCW) ****3/4
Eddie Kingston vs. Mike Quackenbush (11/13) (Chikara) ****1/2
Leaders vs. Peligro Abejas (12/5) (IPW:UK) ****1/2
El Generico vs. 123 Kid (4/17) (Chikara) ****1/2
AJ Styles vs. Bully Ray (6/12) (TNA) ****1/2
Low Ki vs. Austin Aries vs. Shiima Xion vs. Jack Evans (7/10) (TNA) ****1/4
The Colony vs. FIST (4/17) (Chikara) ****1/4
Akira Tozawa vs. Eddie Kingston (4/17) (Chikara) ****1/4
El Generico vs. Eddie Kingston (1/23) (Chikara) ****1/4
El Generico vs. Marty Scurll (3/6) (IPW:UK) ****1/4
FIST vs. Team Osaka Pro (4/16) (Chikara) ****1/4
Sami Callihan vs. Adam Cole (4/9) (CZW) ****1/4
William Regal vs. Dean Ambrose (11/6) (FCW) ****
The Young Buck$ vs. The Colony (11/13) (Chikara) ****
Mike Quackenbush vs. Hallowicked (5/21) (Chikara) ****
Sami Callihan vs. Daisuke Sekimoto (4/9) (CZW) ****
AR Fox vs. Sami Callihan vs. Jake Crist (4/9) (CZW) ****
Tomasso Ciampa vs. Adam Cole (4/30) (ECWA) ****
Jigsaw/Quackenbush vs. The Colony (3/13) (Chikara) ****
The Osirian Portal vs. Tursas/Donst/Sanchez (3/13) (Chikara) ****
Leaders vs. Cole & O’Reilly (3/6) (IPW:UK) ****
Eddie Edwards vs. Mark Haskins (12/5) (IPW:UK) ****
Philly’s Most Wanted vs. The Osirian Portal (12/11) (CZW) ****


----------



## flag sabbath

I was tempted to quote that just to see if it would crash the forum.


----------



## seabs

*Everything I've watched so far from 2011 ***3/4 or higher. Still stuff I need to see that could be added.*

*Too awesome for stars*
_Colt Cabana vs Marty Scurll - wXw 16 Carat Gold Tournament Day 2_

****3/4+*
_Satoshi Kojima vs Hiroshi Tanahashi - NJPW Wrestle Kingdom V
Hiroshi Tanahashi, Prince Devitt & Mistico vs Shinsuke Nakamura, Testuya Naito & Averno - NJPW 22.01.2011
Golden Lovers vs Apollo 55 - NJPW 23.01.2011
Daisuke Sekimoto & Yuji Okabayashi vs Abdullah Kobayashi & Masato Inaba - BJW 11.01.2011
Shinjiro Otani vs Yoshihiro Takayama - ZERO-1 06.03.2011
Minoru vs Shuji Kondo vs Kaz Hayashi - AJPW 06.02.2011
Takashi Sugiura vs Trevor Murdoch - NOAH 21.03.2011
Kenny King vs Kyle O'Reilly - ROH Champions vs All Stars
Roderick Strong vs El Generico - ROH SoCal Showdown II
Briscoes vs All Night Express - ROH Honor Takes Center Stage Chapter 2
Colt Cabana vs Zack Sabre Jr. - wXw 16 Carat Gold Tournament Day 1
El Generico vs Kotaro Suzuki - wXw 16 Carat Gold Tournament Day 1
Sami Callihan vs Big Van Walter - wXw 16 Carat Gold Tournament Day 3
Jon Moxley vs Jimmy Jacobs - Dog Collar Match - IPW Showtown In Naptown
American Wolves vs Irish Airbourne - IPW Showtown In Naptown
Munenori Sawa vs Hikaru Sato - wXw Ambition 2
Davey Richards & Briscoes vs Roderick Strong & Kings Of Wrestling - ROH on HDNet 04.04.2011
Shinjiro Otani & Daichi Hashimoto vs Masato Tanaka & Kenta Kakinuma - ZERO-1 16.04.2011
Hiroshi Tanahashi & Yuji Nagata vs Shinsuke Nakamura & Masato Tanaka - NJPW 19.04.2011
Bad Intentions & Jushin Liger vs Manabu Nakanshi, Strong Man & Koji Kanemoto - NJPW 12.02.2011
Young Bucks vs Kevin Steen & Akira Tozawa - PWG DDT4 2011
Daisuke Sekimoto & Yuji Okabayashi vs Manabu Soya & Ryota Hama - BJW 28.04.2011
AJ Styles vs Bully Ray - Last Man Standing - Slammiversary 2011
Takashi Sugiura vs Claudio Castagnoli - NOAH/wXw Genesis In Germany
Jun Akiyama vs Taiyo Kea - AJPW 08.04.2011
Prince Devitt vs Kenny Omega - NJPW 05.06.2011
Prince Devitt vs Davey Richards - NJPW 26.05.2011
Davey Richards vs Kenny Omega - NJPW 08.06.2011
Kota Ibushi vs Davey Richards - NJPW 10.06.2011
L.A Park vs El Mesias - Hair vs Mask Match - AAA TripleMania XIX
Kotaro Suzuki vs Ricky Marvin - NOAH 08.05.2011
Genki Horiguchi & Ryo Saito vs SHINGO & YAMATO - Dragon Gate 12.04.2011
Jun Akiyama vs Katsuhiko Nakajima - NOAH 10.07.2011
Bad Intentions vs Hiroshi Tanahashi & Hirooki Goto - NJPW 13.07.2011
Hiroshi Tanahashi vs Yuji Nagata - NJPW 01.08.2011
Minoru Suzuki vs MVP - NJPW 02.08.2011
Minoru Suzuki vs Karl Anderson - NJPW 05.08.2011
Minoru Suzuki vs La Sombra - NJPW 07.08.2011
PAC vs Dragon Kid - Dragon Gate 12.05.2011
Yoshihito Sasaki & Shinya Ishikawa vs Ryuichi Kawakami & Kazuki Hashimoto - BJW 27.05.2011
Jun Kasai, Jaki Numazawa & Masashi Takeda vs Shinobu, Shuji Ishikawa & Takashi Sasaki - Barbed Wire Board Scramble Bunkhouse Death Match - BJW 27.05.2011
Kaz Hayashi, Shuji Kondo & Minoru vs KAI, Hiroshi Yamato & BUSHI - AJPW 18.07.2011
Suwama & Masaktsu Funaki vs Seiya Sanada & Taiyo Kea - AJPW 18.07.2011
Dick Togo & HARASHIMA vs KUDO & Danshoku Dino - DDT 04.06.2011
Dick Togo vs Gedo - DDT 30.06.2011
Shinsuke Nakamura vs Karl Anderson - NJPW 10.08.2011
MVP vs Hirooki Goto - NJPW 10.08.2011
Giant Bernard vs Toru Yano - NJPW 17.08.2011
Finlay vs Sami Callihan - EVOLVE 9
Masaaki Mochizuki vs Yasushi Kanda - Dragon Gate 19.06.2011
Go Shiozaki vs Jun Akiyama - NOAH 06.08.2011
Alberto Del Rio vs John Cena - Last Man Standing - Vengeance 2011
Big Van Walter vs Axeman - wXw World Championship - wXw Broken Rulz XI
Davey Richards vs ACH - St. Louis Anarchy Will Wrestle For Food	
Jerry Lawler vs Luke Robinson - NEW Brass City Brawl II
Jun Akiyama vs Suwama - AJPW 23.10.2011
Daisuke Sekimoto & Yuji Okabayashi vs Suwama & Takumi Soya - AJPW 19.11.2011
Suwama & Takumi Soya vs Takao Omori & Manabu Soya - AJPW 04.12.2011
Big Van Walter vs Zack Sabre Jr. - wXw World Championship - wXw With You Japan
Daisuke Sekimoto & Yuji Okabayashi vs Brahman Shu & Brahman Kei - BJW 22.11.2011
Daisuke Sekimoto & Yuji Okabayashi vs Suwama & Takumi Soya - BJW 18.12.2011
Naruki Doi, Naoki Tanizaki & Kzy vs Kenichiro Arai, Taku Iwasa & K-Ness - Dragon Gate 20.12.2011_

******
_Naruki Doi & Ricochet vs Chuck Taylor & Johnny Gargano - DGUSA United: NYC
CIMA & Dragon Kid vs Masato Yoshino & PAC - DGUSA United: NYC
El Generico vs Eddie Kingston - CHIKARA Chaos In The Sea Of Lost Souls
Roderick Strong vs Jay Briscoe - ROH Only The Strong Will Survive
Dick Togo vs HARASHIMA - DDT 27.02.2011
Takashi Sugiura vs Giant Bernard - NOAH 05.03.2011
Yuji Nagata vs Masato Tanaka - ZERO-1 06.03.2011
American Wolves vs Charlie Haas & Shelton Benjamin - ROH Honor Takes Center Stage Chapter 2
Go Shiozaki vs Kotaro Suzuki - wXw 16 Carat Gold Tournament Day 2
Daisuke Sekimoto vs El Generico - wXw 16 Carat Gold Tournament Day 3
Zack Sabre Jr. vs Jon Ryan - wXw Ambition 2
Prince Devitt, Ryusuke Taguchi & KUSHIDA vs Kota Ibushi, Kenny Omega & Daisuke Sasaki - NJPW 19.04.2011
Daisuke Sekimoto & Yuji Okabayashi vs Yoshihito Sasaki & Shinya Ishikawa - BJW 05.05.2011
Christian vs Randy Orton - Over The Limit
Chris Hero vs TJ Perkins - ROH Defy Or Deny
Claudio Castagnoli vs Davey Richards - ROH Defy Or Deny
Eddie Edwards vs Roderick Strong - ROH Manhattan Mayhem IV
Chris Hero vs KENTA - NOAH/wXw Genesis In Germany
Prince Devitt vs TJP - NJPW 28.05.2011
Kota Ibushi vs KUSHIDA - NJPW 28.05.2011
Jushin Liger vs Great Sasuke - NJPW 28.05.2011
Prince Devitt vs Fujita Jr. Hayato - NJPW 29.05.2011
Dick Togo vs Kota Ibushi - DDT 27.03.2011
PAC vs Naoki Tanizaki - Dragon Gate 06.02.2011
SHINGO, Cyber Kong, KAGETORA & Taku Iwasa vs CIMA, Gamma, Dragon Kid & Ricochet - Captains Fall Loser Revives Elimination Match - Dragon Gate 05.05.2011
Takashi Sugiura vs Dave Mastiff - NOAH European Navigation 2011 Night 1
Bad Intentions vs Hiroshi Tanahashi & Hirooki Goto - NJPW 03.07.2011
Satoshi Kojima vs Minoru Suzuki - NJPW 01.08.2011
Maasaki Mochizuki vs SHINGO - Dragon Gate 12.05.2011
SHINGO vs BxB Hulk - Dragon Gate 08.07.2011
Eddie Edwards vs Alex Shelley - PWG All Star Weekend 8 Night 1
Takashi Sugiura vs Kensuke Sasaki - NOAH 23.07.2011
Bad Intentions vs Takeshi Morishma & Yutaka Yoshie - NOAH 23.07.2011
Daisuke Sekimoto, Yuji Okabayashi & Shinobu vs Yoshihito Sasaki, Shinya Ishikawa & Ryuichi Kawakami - BJW 27.06.2011
Satoshi Kojima vs MVP - NJPW 07.08.2011
Shinjiro Otani & Yoshikazu Yokoyama vs Ryouji Sai & Kohei Sato - ZERO-1 23.05.2011
KUDO vs Shuji Ishikawa - KO-D Openweight Championship - DDT 24.07.2011
Minoru Suzuki vs Wataru Inoue - NJPW 10.08.2011
Satoshi Kojima vs Hiroyoshi Tenzan - NJPW 17.08.2011
Shinsuke Nakamura vs Minoru Suzuki - NJPW 17.08.2011
Apollo 55 vs Golden Lovers - NJPW 17.08.2011
Kevin Steen vs PAC - PWG Eight
Manabu Soya & Seiya Sanada vs Kaz Hayashi & Shuji Kondo - All Asia Tag Team Championships - AJPW 21.08.2011
Dick Togo vs James Mason - ASWUK 02.08.2011
Randy Orton & Sheamus vs Christian & Mark Henry - WWE House Show Bercy 04.09.2011
Bad Intentions & Jushin Liger vs Apollo 55 & Hirooki Goto - NJPW 23.06.2011
Genki Horiguchi & Ryo Saito vs PAC & Dragon Kid - Dragon Gate 19.06.2011
Prince Devitt vs KUSHIDA - NJPW 19.09.2011
Hiroshi Tanahashi vs Shinsuke Nakamura - NJPW 19.09.2011
KAI vs Koji Kanemoto - AJPW 25.09.2011
Chris Hero vs Willie Mack - PWG BOLA 2011
Evan Bourne & Kofi Kingston vs Dolph Ziggler & Jack Swagger - Vengeance 2011
Shinjiro Otani, Akebono & Ikuto Hidaka vs Masato Tanaka, Ryouji Sai & Super Crazy - ZERO-1 02.10.2011	
Averno vs La Mascara - Mask vs Mask Match - CMLL 17.06.2011
Daisuke Sekimoto & Yuji Okabayashi vs Manabu Soya & Seiya Sanada - AJPW 23.10.2011
Adam Cole vs Sami Callihan - CZW Jr. Heavyweight Championship - CZW Night Of Infamy
Daisuke Sekimoto & Yuji Okabayashi vs Seiya Sanada & KAI - AJPW 04.12.2011
Jun Kasai & Jaki Numazawa vs Yuki Miyamoto & Isami Kodaka - BJW 22.11.2011
Yoshihito Sasaki & Shinobu vs Takashi Sasaki & Kazuki Hashimoto - BJW 22.11.2011
Kensuke Sasaki vs Takashi Sugiura - NOAH 14.11.2011
Naruki Doi, Naoki Tanizaki & Kzy vs Gamma, Shachihoko Machine & Chihiro Tominaga - Open The Traingle Gate Championships - Dragon Gate 19.11.2011
PAC & Dragon Kid vs Susumu Jimmy & Jimmy KAGETORA - Dragon Gate 20.12.2011_

*****1/4*
_Masato Yoshino & PAC vs Naruki Doi & Ricochet - DGUSA United: Philly
Kotaro Suzuki vs Eddie Edwards - NOAH 29.01.2011
Dick Togo vs Antonio Honda - DDT 30.01.2011
Smackdown Elimination Chamber - Elimination Chamber 2011
Eddie Edwards vs Christopher Daniels - 2/3 Falls - ROH 9th Anniversary Show
Daisuke Sekimoto & Yuji Okabayashi vs Seiya Sanada & Manabu Soya - AJPW 06.02.2011
Daisuke Sekimoto, Yuji Okabayashi & Ryuichi Kawakami vs Yoshihito Sasaki, Shinya Ishikawa & Masashi Otani - BJW 12.02.2011
Claudio Castagnoli vs El Generico - PWG Kurt RussellReunion II
Oberhausen Terror Corps vs Munenori Sawa & Hikaru Sato - wXw Back 2 The Roots X
Daisuke Sekimoto vs Big Van Walter - wXw Back 2 The Roots X
LDRS Of The New School vs Adam Cole & Kyle O'Reilly - wXw Kreuzzug ZXI
Daisuke Sekimoto vs Chris Hero - wXw Kreuzzug ZXI
Chris Hero vs Zack Sabre Jr. - wXw Kreuzzug ZXI Union City
Eddie Edwards vs Michael Elgin - ROH Defy Or Deny
Kings Of Wrestling vs LAX - ROH Manhattan Mayhem IV
Christopher Daniels vs Davey Richards - Pure Wrestling Rules - ROH Manhattan Mayhem IV
Young Bucks vs American Wolves - PWG DDT4 2011
Kings Of Wrestling vs Kevin Steen & Akira Tozawa - PWG DDT4 2011
Manabu Nakanishi, Kota Ibsuhi & Kenny Omega vs Shinsuke Nakamura , Jado & Gedo - NJPW 03.04.2011
Kings Of Wrestling vs American Wolves - ROH Revolution USA
Masato Yoshino vs Don Fuji - Dragon Gate 18.01.2011
Yuji Nagata vs Suwama - AJPW 09.04.2011
Zack Sabre Jr. vs KENTA - NOAH European Navigation 2011 Night 2
CM Punk vs John Cena - Money In The Bank 2011
Akira Tozawa, CIMA, Naruki Doi, Yasushi Kanda & BxB Hulk vs SHINGO, YAMATO, Masato Yoshino, Maasaki Mochizuki & Gamma - Dragon Gate 08.06.2011
Kevin Steen & Akira Tozawa vs El Generico & Ricochet - PWG All Star Weekend 8 Night 1
Young Bucks vs Austin Aries & Roderick Strong - PWG All Star Weekend 8 Night 2
Shinsuke Nakamura vs Hiroyoshi Tenzan - NJPW 05.08.2011
Yuji Okabayashi & Shinobu vs Yoshihito Sasaki & Kazuki Hashimoto - BJW 25.07.2011
CM Punk vs John Cena - WWE Championship - Summerslam 2011
Hiroshi Tanahashi vs Toru Yano - NJPW 13.08.2011
Shinsuke Nakamura vs Tetsuya Naito - NJPW 17.08.2011
Hiroshi Tanahashi vs Giant Bernard - IWGP Heavyweight Championship - NJPW 18.07.2011
Ryo Saito & Genki Horiguchi vs Susumu Yokosuka & K-Ness vs Kenichiro Arai & Taku Iwasa - 3 Way Elimination Match - Dragon Gate 25.08.2011
Prince Devitt & Ryusuke Taguchi vs Davey Richards & Rocky Romero - IWGP Jr. Tag Team Championships - NJPW 10.10.2011
Finlay vs Kevin Steen - PWG BOLA 2011
Young Bucks vs Kings Of Wrestling - PWG BOLA 2011
Masato Tanaka vs Necro Butcher - ZERO-1 17.09.2011
William Regal vs Dean Ambrose - FCW 06.11.2011
Terry Funk vs Jerry Lawler - No Holds Barred - NEW Autumn Ambush 2011
Katsuhiko Nakajima vs Ricky Marvin - GHC Jr. Heavyweight Championship - NOAH 27.11.2011
Hikaru Sato vs Hiroshi Yamato - AJPW 04.12.2011
Seiya Sanada & KAI vs Suwama & Takumi Soya - AJPW 23.11.2011
Daisuke Sekimoto & Yuji Okabayashi vs Jun Kasai & Jaki Numazawa - BJW 22.11.2011
Masaaki Mochizuki vs Akira Tozawa - Open The Dream Gate Championship - Dragon Gate 13.10.2011
Masaaki Mochizuki, Masato Yoshino, SHINGO & YAMATO vs CIMA, Ricochet, Akira Tozawa & BxB Hulk - Dragon Gate 20.12.2011_

*****1/2*
_CIMA & Dragon Kid vs Chuck Taylor & Johnny Gargano - DGUSA United: Philly
Akira Tozawa vs BxB Hulk - DGUSA United We Stand
Daisuke Sekimoto & Yuji Okabayashi vs Seiya Sanada & Manabu Soya - AJPW 21.03.2011
Zack Sabre Jr. vs Davey Richards - wXw 16 Carat Gold Tournament Day 2
LDRS Of The New School vs Adam Cole & Kyle O'Reilly - wXw 16 Carat Gold Tournament Day 3
CIMA, Naruki Doi, Naoki Tanizaki & Ricochet vs Masato Yoshino, BxB Hulk, Susumu Yokosuka & PAC - Loser Revives Survival Elimination Match - Dragon Gate 04.03.2011
Davey Richards vs Eddie Edwards - ROH Best In The World 2011
Hiroshi Tanahashi vs Hirooki Goto - NJPW 18.06.2011
Kings Of Wrestling vs Takeshi Morishima & Shuhei Taniguchi - NOAH European Navigation 2011 Night 2
Go Shiozaki vs Katsuhiko Nakajima - NOAH European Navigation 2011 Night 2
Kevin Steen & Akira Tozawa vs RockNES Monsters - PWG All Star Weekend 8 Night 2
El Generico vs Eddie Edwards - PWG All Star Weekend 8 Night 2
Akira Tozawa vs Chris Hero - PWG All Star Weekend 8 Night 2
Suwama vs Seiya Sanada - Triple Crown Championship - AJPW 31.07.2011
Randy Orton vs Christian - No Holds Barred - World Heavyweight Championship - Summerslam 2011
Triple H vs CM Punk - No DQ Match - Night Of Champions 2011
Akira Tozawa vs BxB Hulk vs Cyber Kong vs SHINGO vs YAMATO vs KAGETORA - Mask vs Hair Survival Cage Escape Match - Dragon Gate 16.10.2011
Claudio Castagnoli vs El Generico - PWG BOLA 2011
El Generico vs Kevin Steen - PWG BOLA 2011_

*****3/4*
_Kevin Steen vs El Generico - Ladder Match - PWG World Championship - PWG Steen Wolf_


----------



## Tanner1495

Since there isn't a thread for it, I'll just post it here.

January looks like it is starting 2012 with a BANG. The Wrestle Reunion DGUSA/PWG shows, Wrestle Kingdom, The Royal Rumble and Punk/Ziggler, a few NOAH cards and I'm sure Lethal/Richards will be pretty good as well! This year of wrestling already looks awesome!!


----------



## Generation-Now

No love for Mochizuki vs. Yamato?


----------



## Tanner1495

_Kevin Steen vs El Generico- Steen Wolf_

:mark:

*Rating*:*****


----------



## Chismo

Generation-Now said:


> No love for Mochizuki vs. Yamato?


I remember loving it, I think I rated it ******, therefore it's a MOTYC.


----------



## starship.paint

JoeRulz said:


> *BxB Hulk & Akira Tozawa vs. SHINGO & YAMATO (Dragon Gate, Final Gate 2011)*
> 
> Epic, epic tag battle with 3 of my favorites. Tozawa is growing on me too. This was just brilliant. YAMATO looks soulless without hair.
> *Rating: ****1/2*


I've got it at ****. I'll watch it again to see whether I'd bump it to ****1/4.


----------



## Bubz

I really disliked Tozawa/SHINGO. Can't quite put my finger on why though since I love both guys.


----------



## mk92071

Bubz said:


> I really disliked Tozawa/SHINGO. Can't quite put my finger on why though since I love both guys.


I get where your coming from. I read the posts about how good it was and when I watched it, it didn't live up to the hype.


----------



## seancarleton77

Danshoku Dino Produce 2011/12/31


----------



## Rah

JoeRulz said:


> *BxB Hulk & Akira Tozawa vs. SHINGO & YAMATO (Dragon Gate, Final Gate 2011)*
> 
> Epic, epic tag battle with 3 of my favorites. Tozawa is growing on me too. This was just brilliant. YAMATO looks soulless without hair.
> *Rating: ****1/2*


Where exactly is a link to that match? For the life of me I cannot find it anywhere.



Seabs said:


> *I always find it amusing every year when the new year rolls up and people start posting final MOTY lists like they're not allowed to watch anything from the previous any more and add it to their lists.*


Well, apart from a divisional standing, lists such as this gives a concise and all-around view of each our own interests. Most of those who have posted in this thread have discussed matches, in depth, already but there will probably be gems that others new to the thread (such as myself) or even matches others haven't read about yet.

So, not only does it offer people the ability to see just what each person approves of (offering a great podium for debate if interests differ), but it can also open our eyes to more matches that may end up making our own lists, as well.

Also, this:


Bruce L said:


> Speaking just for myself, by this point I've already seen pretty much everything from '11 that A)came highly recommended enough to pique my interest, or B) involved wrestlers I enjoy watching, with a few notable exceptions I took care to point out. I imagine it's the same for most people who make such lists this early in the year.
> 
> I'm obviously open to the possibility that at some point in the future I'll stumble upon some hidden gem from '11 that'll make me re-think my list, but I think I'm in decent enough shape right now to put something out there.


__________________________________________
Anyway, here is my top 30 for 2011 (as of posting)










(Sorry about the pic, but I had my list in Excel and it doesn't align correctly when I copy it over)

+ indicates a match above the given rating but perhaps not completely worth the next rating
- indicates the opposite
(Basically I was see-sawing between ratings and neither rating was accurate enough)


----------



## The Big Hero

Maybe more new DG Champion Johnny Gargano in this post?


----------



## Chismo

> Where exactly is a link to that match? For the life of me I cannot find it anywhere.


http://www.fileserve.com/file/jh8XYvG
credit: *Seabs*


----------



## Rah

JoeRulz said:


> http://www.fileserve.com/file/jh8XYvG
> credit: *Seabs*


Thanks man. I did a search through the megaposts section to no avail. I'm not sure why but I thought it would be DG:USA so I didn't check the Puro threads.

Have to spread rep around, but I'll re-rep this post in a couple days.



seancarleton77 said:


> Danshoku Dino Produce 2011/12/31


What
The
Fuck


----------



## smitlick

*wXw - Kreuzzug ZXI - Union City*

Chris Hero vs Zack Sabre Jr
****-****1/4


----------



## seancarleton77

Rah said:


> What
> The
> Fuck


Great match.


----------



## seabs

*Masato Tanaka & Fujita Jr. Hayato vs Daichi Hashimoto & Akebono - ZERO-1 18.12.2011*
_Awesome sprint for 10 minutes. Akebono wasn't a factor until the last few minutes for the finish where he was great and they did a smart job of keeping him out of the match until that point. Daichi looked tons better and his strikes are stiffer. Great stuff between him and Hayato._

****3/4*

*Masato Tanaka & Fujita Jr. Hayato vs Shinjiro Otani & Yoshikazu Yokoyama - ZERO-1 18.12.2011*
_Probably the best Z1 match all of last year and they had a great year. Otani proved yet again why he's easily a top 10 worker right now. Amazing exchanges between him and Hayato. Yokoyama's an amazing young gun and he was superb throughout this. Him and Otani go so well together as a team. Really good workover period on Yokoyama. Tanaka does his table spot that he does in every single match of any significance but it fit in well here at least. Shame it didn't happen earlier in the year so it could be more appreciated just like the amazing Sekimoto vs Hayato tag from the end of 2010._

*****1/4*


----------



## Rah

seancarleton77 said:


> Great match.


Well, I cannot say I didn't laugh heartily and wasn't entertained by it. Definitely didn't expect that, though.


----------



## New Blood

I guess no one saw Blue Panther vs. ***** Casas or Guerrero Maya Jr. vs. Virus since those were as much legit MOTYCs as anything else from 2011.


----------



## WOOLCOCK

Guerrero Maya Jr v Virus was my #2, a truly great match which was a throwback to the height of CMLL at its best. Virus may be the best in the world when he's at his peak, its just ahead of Finlay/Calihan and Cena/Mysterio and just behind Cena/Punk MITB.


----------



## GOD OF CUNT

My top 10 would probably be:

1. John Cena v CM Punk, WWE Money in the Bank (7/17/11)
2. Finlay v Sami Callihan, EVOLVE (7/26/11)
3. Virus v Guerrero Maya Jr., CMLL (6/7/11)
4. Daisuke Sekimoto & Yuji Okabayashi v Ryoto Hama & Manabu Soya, BJW (4/28/11)
5. Dick Togo v Antonio Honda, DDT (1/30/11)
6. Yoshihiro Takayama v KENTA, NOAH (1/15/11)
7. CM Punk v John Cena, WWE Summerslam (8/14/11)
8. Koji Kanemoto v Hayato Jr. Fujita, New Japan (5/26/11)
9. Dick Togo v HARASHIMA, DDT (2/27/11)
10. Jerry Lawler v The Miz, WWE No Way Out (2/21/11)

Yeah...barely seen anything.


----------



## WOOLCOCK

fuck I forgot about that Togo/Honda match, that would probably be pushing my top 5: there's an Ikeda/Ishikawa match from FUTEN that people are praying comes online soon since it has a chance of being MOTD (ok that's too far, but it'll be really fucking good at the absolute worst).

Ishikawa has actually been building a steady case for BITW this year from what I've seen, he's got a great mixed tag opposite Fujiwara and KANA and some other chick which was really bossy, and the match v Ikeda from BattlARTS's final show was really really good for the 14 minutes or so it got: the headbutts in that match were infuckingsane btw: Ikeda just straight up ran through his noggin a couple of times.

Still need to see Togo/Finlay, the fact it goes 16 minutes makes me think it could be really awesome but I'm sure I read somewhere Togo may have been limited due to an injury and they worked a more character driven match (which knowing these two would still kick ass) rather than an all out fight. SEABS could shed some light assuming he's seen the match (he's put it on disc after all).


----------



## GOD OF CUNT

For all the shit I've given wrestling from the last few years, there's a bunch of stuff from last year that I really want to watch at some point. Panther/Casas, Park/Mesias, Ishikawa/Ikeda, anything with Finlay...that's all stuff that I absolutely plan on watching. Not just a half assed "eh, that seems pretty cool, I might watch it" response that's dripping with apathy. It's just that a big part of the enjoyment I get out of watching wrestling is actually talking/writing about it, and I just haven't been motivated to write anything in months.


----------



## WOOLCOCK

The WCW project burnt me out a bit, I watched a fair bit of stuff afterwards but just wasn't really interested in writing about it, and even some of the matches I planned to watch after the poll was done (Panther/Casas was one of those) just didn't appeal to me and it was easier to watch some TV shows instead or just go the pub and get lashed regularly.


----------



## Yeah1993

METTA WORLD PEACE said:


> Yeah...barely seen anything.


My list would be Cena v Punk, Takayama v KENTA and a bunch of WWE TV stuff (some of which is really which is worth checking out btw- Rey v Cena, Masters v McIntyre and the Bryan v Henry trilogy if nothing else). Yeah YOU'VE barely seen anything.  Considering I didn't think Cena v Punk was as good as others think....I should probably get on the lucha stuff and the Finlay I put on disc......


----------



## WOOLCOCK

Oh man, all of the matches Yeah listed are worthy watching, Masters v Mcintyre was so god damn good and a damn shame that Masters' ability to put on matches of this calibre wasn't enough to save his job.

I'd also throw in Show v Henry from Vengeance, don't think it touches Batista v Undertaker from Wrestlemania 23 in terms of a heavyweight bomb throwing match, but its damn great match with some lunatic bumps, good control work and selling and a dynamite finish that makes Henry look like THE MAN.

Also for pure fun, Otunga v Orton Street Fight from Smackdown in late November (might actually be the same night as Bryan/Henry in the cage) is just flat out great for the pure hilarity of some of the spots they come up with, (it was a Christmas themed show for goodness knows why so they incorporated a bunch of Christmas weapons/materials into the match).


----------



## seabs

Segunda Caida said:


> Still need to see Togo/Finlay, the fact it goes 16 minutes makes me think it could be really awesome but I'm sure I read somewhere Togo may have been limited due to an injury and they worked a more character driven match (which knowing these two would still kick ass) rather than an all out fight. SEABS could shed some light assuming he's seen the match (he's put it on disc after all).


*Don't be expecting a MOTYC from it even for someone with a short list. It's good but doesn't really get the time to get going and be great. Good just not great sadly.*


----------



## WOOLCOCK

Well dammit, still its TOGO/FINLAY, I'll take whatever I can. Really excited to see when discussion circulates about the Fujiwara/Finlay 6 man tag, that could be really awesome if they book the match accordingly.


----------



## seabs

*Daisuke Sekimoto & Masato Tanaka vs SHINGO & Don Fuji - Masaaki Mochizuki Produce 11.11.2011*
_FUUUUUCK. This was tons of fun and fucking incredible. Gets 4-5 minutes clipped off which was a shame but so what when what they did show was this great. Amazing sprint and SHINGO and Sekimoto prove just why they're the two best power workers around right now. This would easily get into at the least the top 20 matches of 2011 for me._

*****1/2*

*Masaaki Mochizuki, Susumu Yokosuka & Katsuhiko Nakajima vs KAGETORA< Fujita Jr. Hayato & Taro Nohashi - Masaaki Mochizuki Produce 11.11.2011*
_Not on the level of the SHINGO tag but still a great match which was tons of fun as well._

******


----------



## RKOG

2011 Matches of the Year

1)	CM Punk v John Cena (WWE Money in the Bank, July) *****
2)	Davey Richards v Eddie Edwards (ROH Best in the World, September)*****
3)	El Generico v Kevin Steen (Ladder Match, PWG Steen Wolf, October)*****
4) Prince Devitt v Kota Ibushi (NJPW Wrestle Kingdom V, January) ****3/4
5)	Seth Rollins v Darren Ambrose (FCW, August) ****3/4
6)	Kenny Omega & Kota Ibushi v Prince Devitt & Ryusuke Taguchi (NJPW-CMLL Fantasticamania, January) ****1/2
7)	Dick Togo v Kota Ibushi (DDT Judgment Day, March)**** 1/2
8)	KENTA v Chris Hero (WxW Genesis, June) **** 1/2
9)	Nightmare Violence Collection v El Generico & Ricochet (PWG 8, June) ****1/4
10)	Hiroshi Tanahashi v Nirooki Goto (NJPW Dominion, June) ****1/4
11)	Young Bucks v Future Shock (PWG Steen Wolf, October) ****
12)	Guerrero Maya Jr. v Virus (CMLL, June) ****
13)	Kings of Wrestling v Young Bucks (PWG Battle of Los Angeles, August) ****
14)	Low-Ki v Austin Aries v Jack Evans v Zema Ion (TNA Destination-X, July) ***3/4
15)	Prince Devitt v KUSHIDA (NJPW, March) ***3/4

Thought 2011 was an quality year for wrestling. Even though ROH slipped from previous season, PWG being just so consistently awesome more than made up for it.


----------



## Chismo

American Wolves vs. The All Night Express (ROH, Gateway To Honor) *****1/4*

That match was seriously fantastic. Legit MOTYC.


----------



## Pat9010

Tried to watch that match (American Wolves vs ANX) twice and fell asleep both times. Lol idk what's wrong with me! The first time i literally fell asleep during the entrances and woke up to only see the finish.


----------



## bigbuxxx

idk how you fall asleep during a "dream match". come on man!


----------



## Pat9010

Not to mention i was wide awake for Ciampa/Ridge and Elgin/Grizzly. Something isn't right here.


----------



## Caponex75

I'm not sure if anyone has watched or I just missed the rave about it but did anyone check out KENTA vs. Bison Smith? Seriously superb match and great match of having a guy just totally out powered. RIP Mr. Smith and he got his great singles match before he left. Really really out of nowhere fantastic match.


----------



## Ethan619

*Kevin Steen vs. El Generico (Ladder Match) (PWG Steen Wolf 2011)*
Finally got around to watching this and WOW, my MOTY! I will admit going into watching this I didn't know whether I'd like it much as others as I had know idea on what was going on in the feud as I haven't watched much wrestling outside of WWE (Something that needs to change!). This though was exactly what a ladder match needs to be, brutal! Every move that involved the ladders looked probably which is what sold the match to me, it really felt like they were going to do anything to hurt the other man and capture the title. The selling from Generico was brilliant throughout the match, something that can sometimes be forgotten in ladder matches. I didn't understand the interference (Due to my lack of knowledge of PWG) but it drew large heat therefore was successfully. It also allowed for the turn-buckle brain buster to be sold correctly and allowed enough time for it to be believable for Generico to get back up. Only flaws for me were that there were too many big moves. While I said earlier that I thought all the moves that were done looked brutal and I loved them, sometimes I felt it was over the top. This is something that is hard to avoid in a singles ladder match as these moves are normally needed and look good but can take away some realism of the opponent getting back up after such a brutal move. Despite this minor flaw, this match was fantastic ad my MOTY.

*Match Rating: ****1/2*


----------



## smitlick

*Chikara - Small But Mighty*

Mike Quackenbush vs Sara Del Rey
****


----------



## Mark.

Pat9010 said:


> Not to mention i was wide awake for Ciampa/Ridge and Elgin/Grizzly. Something isn't right here.


Ciampa/Ridge was a legitimately good match, so why wouldn't you be wide awake?


----------



## seabs

*Started catching back up with FCW again yesterday where I left off in April and holy shit I haven't had that much fun watching a bunch of matches from one guy from one TV promotion in ages. I'm talking about Seth Rollins btw. At the point where he joined FCW I didn't not like him, I actively disliked him. Now I'm seriously considering him for WOTY for 2011 now. Not gonna talk about all the MOTYC matches but I need to about the last 3.*

*Seth Rollins & Richie Steamboat vs Los Aviadores - FCW 05.06.2011*
_****1/4_

*Seth Rollins vs Damien Sandow - FCW 15 Championship - FCW 19.06.2011*
_****_

*Seth Rollins vs Dean Ambrose - FCW 15 Championship - FCW 28.08.2011*
_****_

*Seth Rollins vs Dean Ambrose - FCW 15 Championship - FCW 18.09.2011*
_****1/4_

*Seth Rollins vs Dean Ambrose - FCW 02.10.2011*
_And now we get to legit MOTYC's of the bunch. The first 3 Ambrose/Rollins matches got loads of praise and rightly so but this one seemed to go under the radar which is a travesty because it's the best of the lot by some way. Rollins comes into the match with his upper arm all taped up so you can guess where the match is going. By some miracle though between this time and when he left ROH somebody's taught Rollins how to sell a body part and they've TAUGHT HIM WELL. He literally wrestles the whole match with one arm and by that I mean selling the arm consistently and brilliantly while Ambrose is working it over and the doing all of his moves with one arm and leaving the bad arm dangling by his side so he doesn't have to move it. Then on the rare occasions when he does have to use it he makes a big deal out of having to use the arm which in turn makes people care about the spot. It's glorious. Ambrose has his best performance of the series in this one too when he gets the chance to really be evil and sadistic destroying the injured arm and having more of a chance to get his character over within the match. Rollins' arm is actually legit really badly fucked up too and they show some great shots of his completely filled with bruising whilst Ambrose is just ripping his nails and teeth all up the bruising. Regal's on commentary too and he's a god send. He just gets it. Gets literally everything over, makes you care about the match and especially tiny little things that no other commentator could even dream of picking up on. You can tell he's so passionate about the matches too and that transcends to the viewer which makes them care about it. He had an amazing line in one of the earlier matches I mentioned where Bryon Saxton called him Regal and he clmly replies "You can call me William, you can call me Mr. Regal, but if you even call me Regal again I'll break you're bloody fingers off". GOD._

*****1/2*

*Seth Rollins vs Damien Sandow - FCW 15 Championship - FCW 30.10.2011*
_First off the FCW 15 concept is the greatest new concept anyone's thought up in modern wrestling. It's amazing. 15 minutes so as long as you've got one good worker, you're guaranteed a good match, two good workers and you're guaranteed a great match. It's ironman rules in those 15 minutes too which is fucking awesome because it means you can do multiple falls and still keep going so you don't have to kick out of stupid shit and there's tons of different dynamics you can go with thanks to the points system which makes it more like a spot than a work and it always makes the last minute awesome because it can always go either way. Rollins is the first champ and won it at the start of the year and he's kept it ever since. First of long title reigns full of great matches rule and the best part is that when you do switch the title it's a fucking big deal and it's largely down to that why I just adored the finish of this. Gonna spoiler tag it because it's so awesome I don't wanna spoil it for anyone who reads this and then watches it.


Spoiler: finish



They're all level with 6 seconds left so Rollins is gonna retain and then Ambrose runs in and pushes Sandow over causing a DQ in Sandow's favour. It's incredible. Not only does it add to the Rollins/Ambrose feud and is perfect for Ambrose's character but because of the Ironman rules it means that it causes Rollins to lose the title and this is where you get the payoff from having a great lengthy title reign because it means something now. Rollins sells the finish brilliantly too and looks just mortified that after 10 months of working 15 minute ironman matces and always retaining his run has ended like this! On top of all that's Sandow's got the fucking best "I'm a lucky cunt and you're not" look so he's the perfect guy to do it with. Regal's so amazing in helping to get the finish over way before it even happens too. In like the middle of the match he just calmly gets in points about Rollins being the first and only champ, having a great reign and doing the Brisco legacy proud and really getting Seth and his title run over as being great and significant.


 Rollins is still selling the arm from the previous Moxley match and removing parts of the taping was sweet. Once again his selling is phenomenal and he always ties it into his own offence too which I'm a total sucker for. They do a super spot where Rollins goes for his springboard dive into the ring because that's his big go to move but he stutters on the spring because he can't the balance due to his bad arm and Sandow just pushes him off and he falls onto the guard rail with his bad arm draped over the rail. It's amazing. The whole match is. _

*****1/2*

*Seth Rollins vs Damien Sandow - FCW 15 Championship - FCW 13.11.2011*
_And yet again Rollins in another legit MOTYC where he fucking works his ass off and sells a body part better than anyone else I've seen sell in the modern era. Pre match Cesaro comes out and slams Rollins' leg onto the steps during his entrance which leaves the match in question but Sandow and his "I'm a lucky cunt and you aren't. HA!" character proves why it's so great again by forcing Rollins into the match despite the injury because this is his rematch and if he doesn't take the match he's not getting another one. So for the whole match you've got Rollins working from behind like every good babyface should do and selling the fuck out of an injury. Rollins actually gets the first fall off a flash pin which was awesome because then you get the best dynamic for a match ever with the babyface actually having the advantage and the heel working from behind points wise but then the heel having the advantage health wise and the babyface working from behind with the injury. Sandow's great at working over the leg and whilst he may not be as much of an out there worker like Ambrose that's easy to recognise, he's just as good when it comes down to the ring stuff and working his character and making stuff make sense. They do an amazing figure four spot around the ring post where Rollins is just screaming the place down in agony and they do loads of cool little spots finding different variations of working a leg over that all look fresh and current and because of the ironman rules Sandown can get a submission out of it without having to end the match. I mentioned before how much of a sucker I am for guys selling a body part during their own offence and there's tons of awesome examples of Rollins doing this here. He's doing one legged suplexes, trying to do his powerbomb into the corner but his leg giving way and falling with the other guy on top of him and the best of the lot is when he's climbing up the ropes with his back to the ring and he hops up every rope with one leg which is visually impressive on top of being phenomenal selling wise too. If the finish to the previous Rollins/Sandow match was my favourite finish in years then this is my second favourite finish in years. It's all level with 3 seconds left when Rollins gets a quick cradle and seems to get the pin but the 3 count hist literally on 0:00 and they couldn't have done it any tighter to the finish if they'd tried for weeks again afterwards. Completely works as a false finish and everyone sells it to death. Ties in perfectly yet again with Sandow's character too. After the match Cesaro cuts an amazing promo too just to top everything off. At one point he goes off track to insult the fans and then restarts with "where was I? ... oh yes" which is so awesome and then he teases Rollins to come and fight him whilst stood behind where the guard rails join so nobody can easily get to him to hit him anyway. I fucking love this place and at this point they've got some seriously great wrestlers down there. Never thought I'd be praising a bunch of Tyler Black matches this much from 2011 yet alone seriously considering him for my WOTY now._

*****1/2*


----------



## KingKicks

Fuck you Seabs. Now I need to see all of those matches


----------



## Legend

Good you use Fileserve, Seabs


----------



## Chismo

Who the hell is Damien Sandow?


----------



## Bubz

Shit, I really need to see the Sandow matches even though I have no idea who he is.


----------



## WOOLCOCK

I'll probably watch all of them Seabs, great right ups. It does make me laugh how you get a lot of Indy fans moan about how their favourites going to WWE will usually stifle them...whereas bar the likes of Nigel and Bryan who always 'got' pro wrestling and how to mix old school work with a modern 'go go go' indy pace most guys seem to improve in WWE, since their more constrained time means they'll have to cut a lot of the unnecessary bullshit and stick with largely the basics, which vastly improves their workrate and allows for subtle and simple match structures to develop: Black was someone I always thought had potential as a babyface, but was a guy who sadly was in the midst of this indy culture of over-doing things: it isn't honestly a great surprise for me that the guy has flourished working the WWE style and playing to his benefits.

Heard a lot about Damian Sandow as well, sure a few DVDVR/WKO guys have talked about him on some House Shows and mention he's a very good old school heel character who seems to have a good understanding of working crowds and tying his character into a match.


----------



## seabs

*Joey Ryan. Scorpio Sky, Peter Avalon & Ray Rosas vs B-Boy, Famous B, Chris Kadillak & Candace LaRae - PWG Fear*
_****1/2_

*Chris Hero vs Willie Mack - PWG Fear*
_****_

*American Wolves vs Super Smash Brothers - - PWG Fear*
_****1/2_

*El Generico vs Dick Togo - PWG Fear*
_****1/4_

*Young Bucks vs Super Dragon & Kevin Steen - Guerrilla Warfare Match - PWG World Tag Team Championships - PWG Fear*
_***3/4_


----------



## Yeah1993

Damien Sandow used to work for WWE around 2006 as Idol Stevens.


----------



## Kid Kamikaze10

Seabs said:


> *Joey Ryan. Scorpio Sky, Peter Avalon & Ray Rosas vs B-Boy, Famous B, Chris Kadillak & Candace LaRae - PWG Fear*
> _****1/2_
> 
> *Chris Hero vs Willie Mack - PWG Fear*
> _****_
> 
> *American Wolves vs Super Smash Brothers - - PWG Fear*
> _****1/2_
> 
> *El Generico vs Dick Togo - PWG Fear*
> _****1/4_
> 
> *Young Bucks vs Super Dragon & Kevin Steen - Guerrilla Warfare Match - PWG World Tag Team Championships - PWG Fear*
> _***3/4_



That Seven-Man (and a Woman) tag match was freakin' hilarious. One of the funniest matches all year. 




Spoiler: details



From the straight up sexual assault on Candace, to her own team doing a callback to of all people the guy who treated her like s**t for the longest time (RIP Human Tornado  ), to Kevin Steen almost going Michael Cole on commentary...



Hilarious match.


But yeah, I wasn't a fan of the main event, outside of a few spots. But a ton of the matches were great.


----------



## seabs

*Candace is fucking awesome in those inter-gender matches, like legit in more than a comedy sense. The sexual assault spot was quite something, especially once Avalon got involved. Candace of all people doing a Human Tornado tribute spot was ironically hilarious as were them bitch slaps. 

I totally made it sound like a goofy comedy match there and in a sense it is but it's straight up awesomeness too from a wrestling standpoint in terms of being a dangerously fun spotfest.*


----------



## Tanner1495

I should have a final list by tomorrow, I will post it here!


----------



## bigbuxxx

I don't understand why people rate this tag match lower than the Generico/Steen ladder match. They were both just spotfests and don't yell that Generico/Steen wasn't a spot fest, it was. I thought they were both superfun to watch and good matches on top of that.


----------



## topper1

bigbuxxx said:


> I don't understand why people rate this tag match lower than the Generico/Steen ladder match. They were both just spotfests and don't yell that Generico/Steen wasn't a spot fest, it was. I thought they were both superfun to watch and good matches on top of that.


The Ladder match wasn't really a spot fest they didn't do a lot of random shit for the sake of doing it and the stuff also came off looking better in the ladder war. 

The Fear match was pure trash for the most part imo lot of pointless chair shots that didn't look good and trash can shots, Lot of the spots didn't look that great like the stomp dragon did off the top rope or the F5 Steen did both looked awful imo. Crowd was crap and I didn't feel any emotion at all in the match.


----------



## Rah

(This post is said without viewing PWG Fear and thus I cannot comment on that match)

The saving grace with Steen/Generico is that you could look at those spots as a spotfest, sure, but they weren't. They were intregral to the _story surrounding the match_ and one of the few times a spotfest made psychological sense and actually paid off as a means to an end.

It was a ladder match and yet, despite this, when each wrestler had a chance to go for the title they did not. They wanted to beat the holy hell out of each other - and the hatred between them because of it felt so real. Sure they pulled out big spots, but each and every time the spots got more insane leading up until just before Generico won _because it mad sense to do so_.

Re-watch the ending. Steen may not have been fully knocked down while the both of them were on the ladder, but Generico could still have grabbed the belt and the win. He didn't, and I'm glad he didn't as what he did next was one of the greatest ends to a feud and match I've witnessed. 

He flipped over Steen and powerbombed his head right into the ladder on the ground. Not only was it a sick spot but it was an amazing "fuck you" of an exclamation mark to their feud. They beat each other to their limits and because of that they "grew" respect for each other and the crowd for laying it all in the ring. Everything in that match was booked to perfection - even the Young Bucks run-in. That is how you end a feud and that is why I loved it so damn much.

*marking out just thinking of the match*


----------



## bigbuxxx

Rah said:


> (This post is said without viewing PWG Fear and thus I cannot comment on that match)
> 
> The saving grace with Steen/Generico is that you could look at those spots as a spotfest, sure, but they weren't. They were intregral to the _story surrounding the match_ and one of the few times a spotfest made psychological sense and actually paid off as a means to an end.
> 
> It was a ladder match and yet, despite this, when each wrestler had a chance to go for the title they did not. They wanted to beat the holy hell out of each other - and the hatred between them because of it felt so real. Sure they pulled out big spots, but each and every time the spots got more insane leading up until just before Generico won _because it mad sense to do so_.
> 
> Re-watch the ending. Steen may not have been fully knocked down while the both of them were on the ladder, but Generico could still have grabbed the belt and the win. He didn't, and I'm glad he didn't as what he did next was *one of the greatest ends to a feud and match I've witnessed. *
> 
> He flipped over Steen and powerbombed his head right into the ladder on the ground. Not only was it a sick spot but it was an amazing "fuck you" of an exclamation mark to their feud. They beat each other to their limits and because of that they "grew" respect for each other and the crowd for laying it all in the ring. Everything in that match was booked to perfection - even the Young Bucks run-in. That is how you end a feud and that is why I loved it so damn much.
> 
> *marking out just thinking of the match*


So basically moves for the sake of moves but masked because of hatred. I thought the YB and SD/Steen had a feud to and they did a bunch of spots trying to hurt each other and then went for pins later. It's the same thing.

re the bolded part: i sincerely hope it's not the end in PWG and we know it's not the end in ROH. <3 Steen/Generico matches.


----------



## seabs

bigbuxxx said:


> I don't understand why people rate this tag match lower than the Generico/Steen ladder match. They were both just spotfests and don't yell that Generico/Steen wasn't a spot fest, it was. I thought they were both superfun to watch and good matches on top of that.


*It's kinda sad for you if you can't appreciate Steen/Generico from Steen Wolf as being more than a bunch of spots because there was so much more to it that you've clearly missed out on.*

*Dick Togo vs Zack Sabre Jr. - wXw 11th Anniversary*
_****1/4_


----------



## bigbuxxx

idk why it's sad. i still enjoy the hell out of the match because it was damn entertaining as i thought the recent GW match was. am i missing more than "they hate each other so they do moves instead of win the match"? not trying to argue or anything, i'd like to know.


----------



## seabs

*It's sad for you because you aren't able to appreciate it to it's full greatness but at least you still enjoyed it for the spotfest you saw it as so you still got to enjoy it somewhat.*


----------



## bigbuxxx

So it's not more than what I said...which is fine. Maybe I'm looking for more than there is in wrestling as a whole.


----------



## starship.paint

Seabs said:


> *Started catching back up with FCW again yesterday where I left off in April and holy shit I haven't had that much fun watching a bunch of matches from one guy from one TV promotion in ages. I'm talking about Seth Rollins btw. At the point where he joined FCW I didn't not like him, I actively disliked him. Now I'm seriously considering him for WOTY for 2011 now. Not gonna talk about all the MOTYC matches but I need to about the last 3.*
> 
> *Seth Rollins & Richie Steamboat vs Los Aviadores - FCW 05.06.2011*
> _****1/4_
> 
> *Seth Rollins vs Damien Sandow - FCW 15 Championship - FCW 19.06.2011*
> _****_
> 
> *Seth Rollins vs Dean Ambrose - FCW 15 Championship - FCW 28.08.2011*
> _****_
> 
> *Seth Rollins vs Dean Ambrose - FCW 15 Championship - FCW 18.09.2011*
> _****1/4_
> 
> *Seth Rollins vs Dean Ambrose - FCW 02.10.2011*
> _And now we get to legit MOTYC's of the bunch. The first 3 Ambrose/Rollins matches got loads of praise and rightly so but this one seemed to go under the radar which is a travesty because it's the best of the lot by some way. Rollins comes into the match with his upper arm all taped up so you can guess where the match is going. By some miracle though between this time and when he left ROH somebody's taught Rollins how to sell a body part and they've TAUGHT HIM WELL. He literally wrestles the whole match with one arm and by that I mean selling the arm consistently and brilliantly while Ambrose is working it over and the doing all of his moves with one arm and leaving the bad arm dangling by his side so he doesn't have to move it. Then on the rare occasions when he does have to use it he makes a big deal out of having to use the arm which in turn makes people care about the spot. It's glorious. Ambrose has his best performance of the series in this one too when he gets the chance to really be evil and sadistic destroying the injured arm and having more of a chance to get his character over within the match. Rollins' arm is actually legit really badly fucked up too and they show some great shots of his completely filled with bruising whilst Ambrose is just ripping his nails and teeth all up the bruising. Regal's on commentary too and he's a god send. He just gets it. Gets literally everything over, makes you care about the match and especially tiny little things that no other commentator could even dream of picking up on. You can tell he's so passionate about the matches too and that transcends to the viewer which makes them care about it. He had an amazing line in one of the earlier matches I mentioned where Bryon Saxton called him Regal and he clmly replies "You can call me William, you can call me Mr. Regal, but if you even call me Regal again I'll break you're bloody fingers off". GOD._
> 
> *****1/2*
> 
> *Seth Rollins vs Damien Sandow - FCW 15 Championship - FCW 30.10.2011*
> _First off the FCW 15 concept is the greatest new concept anyone's thought up in modern wrestling. It's amazing. 15 minutes so as long as you've got one good worker, you're guaranteed a good match, two good workers and you're guaranteed a great match. It's ironman rules in those 15 minutes too which is fucking awesome because it means you can do multiple falls and still keep going so you don't have to kick out of stupid shit and there's tons of different dynamics you can go with thanks to the points system which makes it more like a spot than a work and it always makes the last minute awesome because it can always go either way. Rollins is the first champ and won it at the start of the year and he's kept it ever since. First of long title reigns full of great matches rule and the best part is that when you do switch the title it's a fucking big deal and it's largely down to that why I just adored the finish of this. Gonna spoiler tag it because it's so awesome I don't wanna spoil it for anyone who reads this and then watches it.
> 
> 
> Spoiler: finish
> 
> 
> 
> They're all level with 6 seconds left so Rollins is gonna retain and then Ambrose runs in and pushes Sandow over causing a DQ in Sandow's favour. It's incredible. Not only does it add to the Rollins/Ambrose feud and is perfect for Ambrose's character but because of the Ironman rules it means that it causes Rollins to lose the title and this is where you get the payoff from having a great lengthy title reign because it means something now. Rollins sells the finish brilliantly too and looks just mortified that after 10 months of working 15 minute ironman matces and always retaining his run has ended like this! On top of all that's Sandow's got the fucking best "I'm a lucky cunt and you're not" look so he's the perfect guy to do it with. Regal's so amazing in helping to get the finish over way before it even happens too. In like the middle of the match he just calmly gets in points about Rollins being the first and only champ, having a great reign and doing the Brisco legacy proud and really getting Seth and his title run over as being great and significant.
> 
> 
> Rollins is still selling the arm from the previous Moxley match and removing parts of the taping was sweet. Once again his selling is phenomenal and he always ties it into his own offence too which I'm a total sucker for. They do a super spot where Rollins goes for his springboard dive into the ring because that's his big go to move but he stutters on the spring because he can't the balance due to his bad arm and Sandow just pushes him off and he falls onto the guard rail with his bad arm draped over the rail. It's amazing. The whole match is. _
> 
> *****1/2*
> 
> *Seth Rollins vs Damien Sandow - FCW 15 Championship - FCW 13.11.2011*
> _And yet again Rollins in another legit MOTYC where he fucking works his ass off and sells a body part better than anyone else I've seen sell in the modern era. Pre match Cesaro comes out and slams Rollins' leg onto the steps during his entrance which leaves the match in question but Sandow and his "I'm a lucky cunt and you aren't. HA!" character proves why it's so great again by forcing Rollins into the match despite the injury because this is his rematch and if he doesn't take the match he's not getting another one. So for the whole match you've got Rollins working from behind like every good babyface should do and selling the fuck out of an injury. Rollins actually gets the first fall off a flash pin which was awesome because then you get the best dynamic for a match ever with the babyface actually having the advantage and the heel working from behind points wise but then the heel having the advantage health wise and the babyface working from behind with the injury. Sandow's great at working over the leg and whilst he may not be as much of an out there worker like Ambrose that's easy to recognise, he's just as good when it comes down to the ring stuff and working his character and making stuff make sense. They do an amazing figure four spot around the ring post where Rollins is just screaming the place down in agony and they do loads of cool little spots finding different variations of working a leg over that all look fresh and current and because of the ironman rules Sandown can get a submission out of it without having to end the match. I mentioned before how much of a sucker I am for guys selling a body part during their own offence and there's tons of awesome examples of Rollins doing this here. He's doing one legged suplexes, trying to do his powerbomb into the corner but his leg giving way and falling with the other guy on top of him and the best of the lot is when he's climbing up the ropes with his back to the ring and he hops up every rope with one leg which is visually impressive on top of being phenomenal selling wise too. If the finish to the previous Rollins/Sandow match was my favourite finish in years then this is my second favourite finish in years. It's all level with 3 seconds left when Rollins gets a quick cradle and seems to get the pin but the 3 count hist literally on 0:00 and they couldn't have done it any tighter to the finish if they'd tried for weeks again afterwards. Completely works as a false finish and everyone sells it to death. Ties in perfectly yet again with Sandow's character too. After the match Cesaro cuts an amazing promo too just to top everything off. At one point he goes off track to insult the fans and then restarts with "where was I? ... oh yes" which is so awesome and then he teases Rollins to come and fight him whilst stood behind where the guard rails join so nobody can easily get to him to hit him anyway. I fucking love this place and at this point they've got some seriously great wrestlers down there. Never thought I'd be praising a bunch of Tyler Black matches this much from 2011 yet alone seriously considering him for my WOTY now._
> 
> *****1/2*


Keep in mind for my ratings I've already watched Rollins/Ambrose's 3 Iron Man matches... So I only watched the latter 3 matches in one sitting.

Ambrose vs Rollins - 30min Iron Man ****1/4
--
Ambrose vs Rollins - Rollins' arm ****
Rollins vs Sandow - 15min Iron Man I ****
Rollins vs Sandow - 15min Iron Man II ***3/4

PSYCHOLOGY.

Rollins is a bloody hero, working with that arm. I wasn't marking for Rollins after I watched his Iron Mans with Ambrose, but now that Seabs has kindly reviewed the other matches, I am definitely a fan now.

Sandow has great facial expressions. He can hold up his end of the bargain in the ring and I can't really find his flaws.

Ambrose shows why I mark for him after watching the 3 Iron Man matches. There will definitely be a moment when you will do. What a character.

Regal is WWE's best commentator snice Jim Ross. Best color commentator I've ever heard. Like Seabs said, GOD.


----------



## Rah

bigbuxxx said:


> So it's not more than what I said


No, it's more than the spotfest you saw. Like I said, psychology and storytelling in it were amazing.

As for the end of the feuds I don't watch RoH so I cannot comment there (despite thinking Steen/Generico) BUT Steen Wolf felt like a blowoff to their feud and signaled some form of respect/admiration for the other wrestler.


----------



## Chismo

bigbuxxx said:


> idk why it's sad. i still enjoy the hell out of the match because it was damn entertaining as i thought the recent GW match was. am i missing more than "they hate each other so they do moves instead of win the match"? not trying to argue or anything, i'd like to know.


If you missed the whole point and mission of that match and the meaning of all those spots, then you're blind, tbh. It was probably the best storytelling in 2011, so calling it the "spotfest" just makes no sense.


----------



## Bubz

Steen/Generico definitely wasn't just a spotfest. Best match of 2011 for me.


----------



## EmbassyForever

Davey Richards/El Generico - ROH Glory By Honor X ****1/4-****1/2.


----------



## Bruce L

The presence of big, crazy, crowd-popping spots in a match ≠ The absence of storytelling or of anything else of larger significance


----------



## Last Chancery

Just curious, re: Seth Rollins' limb work: Does selling a particular body part make that big a difference in star rating for you guys, more so than overall entertainment value? I enjoy me some good, logical wrestling, but if a match is slow-paced and uninteresting to me, I couldn't care less about the limb stuff. After a certain point in any match, I need a hook beyond just working over someone's arm or leg for the duration. Maybe that's just me, though.


----------



## Rah

The same goes for me, tbh.

A match can be as technically sound as any but if I do not have a reason to be involved (or support one of the guys) I just won't truly enjoy it. Your issue, though, can work on an inverse.

A match can be the most _entertaining_ match of the year but it can, still, lack logic/psychology/selling and thus have it's star rating hurt because of it. A good match, for me, finds good middle ground between all the aspects, thus.


----------



## Bubz

A match that has limb work can still be entertaining. As long as the limb work doesn't get completely forgotten about it's awesome and add's to my enjoyment and rating of the match. If there is a workover and then the guy just no sells it, it takes me right out of the match and lowers my enjoyment and rating. A match can be great without a workover of course, but it depends what the story of the match is and if it really requires one. If you have something like Davey/Eddie from FB where there was no workover or much of a story to talk of and just moves upon moves, it just comes off as complete trash.


----------



## Yeah1993

I love limb work but some people can make it dull as shit. It may technically be "good" wrestling but if the guy isn't making it interesting then yeah it gets boring. 

Example- Dean Malenko working Rey Mysterio's leg over at GAB 1996. Or 95% of the time Dean Malenko worked a part over.

And then there's perfectly good and entertaining limb work, and the guy just blows it off and forgets about it and doesn't even continue seliing.

Example- Dean Malenko blowing off Eddie Guerrero's leg work at Uncensored 1997. Or 95% of the time Dean Malenko had a part worked over.




Guess who isn't my favourite wrestler.


----------



## Last Chancery

Yeah1993 said:


> I love limb work but some people can make it dull as shit. It may technically be "good" wrestling but if the guy isn't making it interesting then yeah it gets boring.
> 
> Example- Dean Malenko working Rey Mysterio's leg over at GAB 1996. Or 95% of the time Dean Malenko worked a part over.
> 
> And then there's perfectly good and entertaining limb work, and the guy just blows it off and forgets about it and doesn't even continue seliing.
> 
> Example- Dean Malenko blowing off Eddie Guerrero's leg work at Uncensored 1997. Or 95% of the time Dean Malenko had a part worked over.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Guess who isn't my favourite wrestler.


... The Shockmaster?

:hmm:


----------



## seabs

*It's entirely dependant on the style of the match they're going for. I don't think anything is essential in a match for it work and/or be enjoyable. Obviously I'd rather sit through a match where the heel works over a body part and the babyface sells the fuck out of it than your generic ROH main event these days. Good selling and workovers are entertaining btw assuming neither guy is a boring little fuck like Dean Malenko.*


----------



## Chismo

As far as I'm concerned, the greatest wrestlers are the ones who can make those "simple and boring" things look interesting and entertaining, like neck work, back work, leg work, headlocks... Examples: Flair, Steamboat, Backlund, Daniels, Finlay, Benoit, Puro guys, etc.


----------



## starship.paint

JoeRulz said:


> As far as I'm concerned, the greatest wrestlers are the ones who can make those "simple and boring" things look interesting and entertaining, like neck work, back work, leg work, headlocks... Examples: Flair, Steamboat, Backlund, Daniels, Finlay, Benoit, Puro guys, etc.


Christopher Daniels? =P


----------



## EmbassyForever

Yeah1993 said:


> I love limb work but some people can make it dull as shit. It may technically be "good" wrestling but if the guy isn't making it interesting then yeah it gets boring.
> 
> Example- Dean Malenko working Rey Mysterio's leg over at GAB 1996. Or 95% of the time Dean Malenko worked a part over.
> 
> And then there's perfectly good and entertaining limb work, and the guy just blows it off and forgets about it and doesn't even continue seliing.
> 
> Example- Dean Malenko blowing off Eddie Guerrero's leg work at Uncensored 1997. Or 95% of the time Dean Malenko had a part worked over.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Guess who isn't my favourite wrestler.


Damien Damento


----------



## Certified G

Seabs said:


> *It's entirely dependant on the style of the match they're going for. I don't think anything is essential in a match for it work and/or be enjoyable. *_Obviously I'd rather sit through a match where the heel works over a body part and the babyface sells the fuck out of it than your generic ROH main event these days.* Good selling and workovers are entertaining btw assuming neither guy is a boring little fuck like Dean Malenko.*_


Re: the unbolded part lol; I am the exact opposite. I really can't sit through a slow paced match where the heel works over a bodypart and the face is just working 15 minutes to a dramatic comeback. Yeah, the comeback is usually fun to watch but the rest of the match is insanely boring for me. 

I think I am one of few (atleast on this forum) who doesn't care for storytelling, selling, psychology etc.. I love a spotfest, and a Richards vs Edwards match is great to watch imo. I really prefer fast paced hard-hitting matches.


----------



## Groovemachine

Limb work when it is sold properly is one of my favourite things about pro-wrestling. Classic example: The Paul London/Bryan Danielson ROH match at Epic Encounter in 2003. Dragon works over the leg, Paul sells it like a frickin' champ, can hardly walk, and has difficulty getting to the top rope for his special moves. London sold it like he was having to change his game plan on the fly. That's the sort of story I love to see in wrestling; I'm not so fussed about what's going on outside the ring, it's when the story is told within the confines of the ring that I'm most interested.


----------



## jawbreaker

The Corre said:


> Re: the unbolded part lol; I am the exact opposite. I really can't sit through a slow paced match where the heel works over a bodypart and the face is just working 15 minutes to a dramatic comeback. Yeah, the comeback is usually fun to watch but the rest of the match is insanely boring for me.
> 
> I think I am one of few (atleast on this forum) who doesn't care for storytelling, selling, psychology etc.. I love a spotfest, and a Richards vs Edwards match is great to watch imo. I really prefer fast paced hard-hitting matches.


_how_

that's like saying that you watch movies for the explosions and you wish they'd stop all that fucking talking

or like your favorite part of the sundae is hot fudge and you wish they had less of that fucking ice cream

will update as I come up with more similes


----------



## Bubz

Transformers III fan 

I'm kidding lol.


----------



## Bruce L

The Corre said:


> I think I am one of few (atleast on this forum) who doesn't care for storytelling, selling, psychology etc.. I love a spotfest, and a Richards vs Edwards match is great to watch imo. I really prefer fast paced hard-hitting matches.


I'm a bit in the same boat, at least as far as selling is concerned. I've loved plenty of matches that had great limbwork that was executed well on the part of the guy doing the workover and sold well by the guy on the receiving end, but if that stuff is completely absent in a match, I don't really notice, because frankly I just find it more realistic.

An important thing that I feel like a lot of people who analyze wrestling matches forget is that within the context of the fictional world being presented on any given wrestling show, professional wrestling is a sport. And with very few exceptions, in sports, I tend to see two kinds of injuries: the kind that render an athlete completely unable to compete, and the kind that the guy works through with no noticeable effect on his game. And if a guy gets hurt in the course of a game/match/fight -- not truly "injured," but just hurt, as which 99% of limbwork is presented -- the audience barely even notices most of the time, except to say "Ooh, that must've hurt" or something to that effect. And the fictional sport that is professional wrestling belongs to the same family of sport as boxing or MMA, where hurting your opponent in such a fashion is not only an unavoidable consequence of a physical and aggressive game (as in, say, American football or rugby or whatever), but simply the way the game is played.

As for storytelling, it's absolutely essential for me to enjoy a match, but I have a much broader definition of it than I think most people do. My ideal for storytelling in wrestling is All Japan in the '90s, where the booking was so deep and layered it deserved comparison to the best TV dramas, and guys like Misawa, Kawada, and Kobashi -- who would've been world-class in-ring performers even without the amazing booking (as they proved after the AJPW/NOAH split) -- could respond accordingly. But really, _every_ pro wrestling match has a story built in: "Two guys (or girls, or teams, or whatever) are going to fight. If it's a title match, the winner gets the title. If it's not, the winner gets more money and gets closer to a title shot. Who's gonna win?" I love it when the story goes deeper than that. But if it doesn't, that's not necessarily a knock. A match may be what most people would dismiss as a "spotfest," but unless it's a Teddy Hart match or something, I don't see that as grounds for casual dismissal.


----------



## Chismo

starship.paint said:


> Christopher Daniels? =P


Fuckyeah.


----------



## seabs

JoeRulz said:


> As far as I'm concerned, the greatest wrestlers are the ones who can make those "simple and boring" things look interesting and entertaining, like neck work, back work, leg work, headlocks... Examples: Flair, Steamboat, Backlund, Daniels, Finlay, Benoit, Puro guys, etc.


*How can you have that list and not include Dick Murdoch?*


----------



## EffectRaven

JoeRulz said:


> Fuckyeah.


A-Freaking-Men

Christopher Daniels may be the most underrated wrestler of the past decade even with the praise he gets


----------



## Chismo

Seabs said:


> *How can you have that list and not include Dick Murdoch?*


He's in the "etc" part.


----------



## topper1

JoeRulz said:


> As far as I'm concerned, the greatest wrestlers are the ones who can make those "simple and boring" things look interesting and entertaining, like neck work, back work, leg work, headlocks... Examples: Flair, Steamboat, Backlund, Daniels, Finlay, Benoit, Puro guys, etc.


I see no Danielson or Bret but Finlay and Daniels :cuss:


----------



## Chismo

Dragon and Bret, definitely, it's impossible to mention everyone.


----------



## Certified G

Bruce L said:


> I'm a bit in the same boat, at least as far as selling is concerned. I've loved plenty of matches that had great limbwork that was executed well on the part of the guy doing the workover and sold well by the guy on the receiving end, but if that stuff is completely absent in a match, I don't really notice, because frankly I just find it more realistic.
> 
> An important thing that I feel like a lot of people who analyze wrestling matches forget is that within the context of the fictional world being presented on any given wrestling show, professional wrestling is a sport. And with very few exceptions, in sports, I tend to see two kinds of injuries: the kind that render an athlete completely unable to compete, and the kind that the guy works through with no noticeable effect on his game. And if a guy gets hurt in the course of a game/match/fight -- not truly "injured," but just hurt, as which 99% of limbwork is presented -- the audience barely even notices most of the time, except to say "Ooh, that must've hurt" or something to that effect. And the fictional sport that is professional wrestling belongs to the same family of sport as boxing or MMA, where hurting your opponent in such a fashion is not only an unavoidable consequence of a physical and aggressive game (as in, say, American football or rugby or whatever), but simply the way the game is played.
> 
> As for storytelling, it's absolutely essential for me to enjoy a match, but I have a much broader definition of it than I think most people do. My ideal for storytelling in wrestling is All Japan in the '90s, where the booking was so deep and layered it deserved comparison to the best TV dramas, and guys like Misawa, Kawada, and Kobashi -- who would've been world-class in-ring performers even without the amazing booking (as they proved after the AJPW/NOAH split) -- could respond accordingly. But really, _every_ pro wrestling match has a story built in: "Two guys (or girls, or teams, or whatever) are going to fight. If it's a title match, the winner gets the title. If it's not, the winner gets more money and gets closer to a title shot. Who's gonna win?" I love it when the story goes deeper than that. But if it doesn't, that's not necessarily a knock. A match may be what most people would dismiss as a "spotfest," but unless it's a Teddy Hart match or something, I don't see that as grounds for casual dismissal.


I agree with most of this, apart from the storytelling, like I mentioned earlier it's not essential for me at all lol. I don't know I just want a fast paced match with awesome moves. The PAC vs Ricochet match from Dragon Gate last year was a match I loved, same with Richards vs Edwards from BITW 2011.


----------



## Cactus

*PWG Fear*
Joey Ryan, Scorpio Sky, Peter Avalon & Ray Rosas vs B-Boy, Famous B, Chris Kadillak & Candace LaRae
_This was probably one of the best comedy matches I have seen. Some genuine laugh-out-loud moments mixed with some jaw-dropping spots. Five-star entertainment._
*Too Awesome For Stars*

American Wolves vs Super Smash Brothers
******

*Non-Title Dream Match*
El Generico vs Dick Togo
_Dick goes out with a blast. Both guys really got the crowd going and it made each near-fall feel even more epic. Nice to see a Pepsi Plunge again too. Fuck Fuck Fuck._
*****¼*


----------



## Bubz

*Seth Rollins vs Dean Ambrose (FCW 2/10/11)*
Seabs pretty much nailed it in his review, but I didn't like it as much as him though. I loved the psychology here, Rollin's arm is all kinds of fucked up and Ambrose comes off as pretty insane when working over it. I didn't dig the start of the match with all the pin attempts and then all the strike exchanges but once Ambrose gets hold of the arm it's all great stuff from there on both guys parts. ******


----------



## Yeah1993

jawbreaker said:


> _how_
> 
> that's like saying that you watch movies for the explosions and you wish they'd stop all that fucking talking
> 
> or like your favorite part of the sundae is hot fudge and you wish they had less of that fucking ice cream
> 
> will update as I come up with more similes


There's nothing wrong with liking a spotfest, it's just those who try to tell everyone else that what they watched *weren't* spotfests. As far as tastes go it looks like The Corre and I are on opposite ends of the yard, but he's actually admitting they're spotfests instead of spouting bullshit about how some shitty spotfest had "psychology" or whatever. A lot of them don't. TLC II from WrestleMania 17 has no "psychology" (I hate that term in wrestling but it's the consensous term for what we're talking about). Honestly, I think it, along with most ladder matches, is a mess. But if people want to enjoy it as a spotfest then w/e. 

I haven't seen a LOT of these type of people, but the people who say something like "Davey Richards told a story by no-selling that move" are the ones that annoy me. Enjoy Davey Richards as a jumping bean all you want, just don't tell me he's a gifted wrestler because he moves at fifty kilometres an hour and ignores his opponenet's offense. I can admit some wrestlers I like are pretty bad. Like Tarzan Goto. 

If there's anything to get out of this post, it's that everyone needs to see more Tarzan Goto.

EDIT: Finlay destroys Bret Hart at "little" things. I don't even see how that's close. But this is the 2011 thread so I won't open a can o' worms.


----------



## jawbreaker

Yeah, I respect that the dude is honest about it, but that's an opinion that feels entirely alien to me. Not the liking spotfests, I can totally get down with spotfests so long as they're good, but storytelling and character work is what makes wrestling enjoyable to me and for someone to come out and say "I have no interest in that" is just _weird_.


----------



## smitlick

*PWG - Perils of Rock n Roll Decadence*

Kevin Steen vs Davey Richards
****


----------



## Chismo

There's nothing wrong with enjoying a spotfest. It's like one of those movies we know they're stupid, but we still watch them and laugh. The most recent spotfest I enjoyed was the SOTF match. Bad match in terms of star rating (*1/4), but it was still one enjoyable, mindless action.


----------



## Cactus

My stance on spotfests...

Spotfests are your typical action movies. All explosions, car chases and shoot-outs. They waste no time building up characters and jump right into the action. They are very easy to enjoy even if they don't have a deep and complex storyline with well-established characters. However, if every movie was a 'no-brain needed' action movie, I wouldn't watch many movies. I love some movies for the little things in them and wrestling is the same for me. The Kawada/Taue versus Misawa/Kobashi 9/6/1995 tag match is a match filled to the brim with little psychological factors and that's what makes it so great, but if all matches were like this, I'm sure I wouldn't watch that much because it's a match you need a brain to enjoy.

Spotfests are just another 'genre' of matches in the wacky world of wrestling.


----------



## smitlick

*Chikara - Klunk In Love*

Sara Del Rey vs Kana
****


----------



## Bubz

*Steen/Super Dragon vs Young Bucks - PWG Fear (Guerilla Warfare match)*
I really enjoyed this a lot. It was just fun as hell with some sick spots throughout. ****


----------



## FITZ

Just watch Steen/Generico from Steen Wolf and I have to say it was one of the best matches of the year. Pure hatred and it was just insanely violent. It's really close to the top of my list from last year.


----------



## StevenROH

Eddie Edwards vs. Davey Richards at 'Best in the World 2011' was perfect.


----------



## jawbreaker

StevenROH said:


> Eddie Edwards vs. Davey Richards at 'Best in the World 2011' was perfect.


No it wasn't.


----------



## StevenROH

jawbreaker said:


> No it wasn't.


Each to their own I guess. I thought the match was terrific and it was just a greats story. The emotion surrounding the match before and after meant it was a level above anything else I saw last year.


----------



## EmbassyForever

ROH ROH Northern Aggression:

C&C/Young Bucks: ***3/4
Red Team/Black Team: ****1/2-****3/4
Proving Ground match: ***1/2

ROH Southern Defiance:
Generico/Eddie: ****1/4
Proving Ground Match (TV Championship): ***1/2
Proving Ground Match (Tag-Team): ***1/2


----------



## flag sabbath

StevenROH said:


> Each to their own I guess. I thought the match was terrific and it was just a greats story. The emotion surrounding the match before and after meant it was a level above anything else I saw last year.


Unfortunately, that emotion was severely lacking _during_ the match.


----------



## jawbreaker

StevenROH said:


> Each to their own I guess. I thought the match was terrific and it was just a greats story. The emotion surrounding the match before and after meant it was a level above anything else I saw last year.


but like flag sabbath said, there was very little emotion _during_ the match, along with absolutely no sense of pacing, no flow, nothing felt organic (and thus realistic), it felt like a super-choreographed exhibition of moves without purpose, with unnecessary "character spots" shoehorned in seemingly at random and not followed up on whatsoever.

It wasn't perfect. It wasn't even good.


----------



## Bubz

I just watched Davey/Generico from GBH 10, and I guess Davey really does refuse to include any sort of logic or good structure in his matches any more, because I was sure if anyone could lead Davey to that it would be Generico, but I was wrong .


----------



## seabs

Bubz said:


> I just watched Davey/Generico from GBH 10, and I guess Davey really does refuse to include any sort of logic or good structure in his matches any more, because I was sure if anyone could lead Davey to that it would be Generico, but I was wrong .


*My heart just sunk a little. I had hopes for it.*


----------



## EffectRaven

Bubz said:


> I just watched Davey/Generico from GBH 10, and I guess Davey really does refuse to include any sort of logic or good structure in his matches any more, because I was sure if anyone could lead Davey to that it would be Generico, but I was wrong .


I'll be watching that one soon. But he did do a pretty great job in his recent match against Elgin.


----------



## Bubz

I thought Generico might at least play the underdog and get dominated etc for the majority but they didn't go that route and he played Davey's equal pretty much. I thought there were some great parts in the match like the exchange that led to the first alarm clock, but sadly that's all the match was for the most part, exchanging moves. There were moments in the early stages that I thought 'hang on, they might actually go with a control segment from Davey!' but it never happened, Generico was there to get the advantage within the next minute or two. It was a hell of a lot better than some of the recent Davey matches though, mainly because when Generico was getting beaten up he was easy to get behind. If I was adidng a rating it would maybe be around ***1/2 just because everything looked great, but there was overkill and not much logic to speak of.

The Brainbuster on the apron looked fucking sick though!


----------



## Ali Dia

Damn, guy on pwtorch gave Davey/Generico like ****1/2. Not that it means anything but I thought that meant the match was at least pretty great. I'm hoping I see it differently.


----------



## Last Chancery

Yeah, I caught the match live and I didn't think it was too great till the final stretch. The crowd was dead for most of it, killed by the tag title match that preceded it. I did like the top rope dragon suplex and the apron brainbuster, though, those were both executed fairly well. I forgot when it occurred, but there was also a move that knocked out Davey's mouth guard. Maybe a Yakuza kick? Pretty stiff match all around but it was typical "moves for the sake of moves" type stuff, unfortunately. I'll give it a rewatch sometime soon to see if I am right about it.


----------



## FITZ

I still like Davey but it does make me wonder when I hear that he didn't have a great match against a _challenging_ El Generico. The guy is amazing when he's the underdog and the challenger. I've watched matches from 2008 in 2011 where I knew Generico wasn't winning the title yet still got sucked into the match starting rooting for Generico.


----------



## RawIsWar1991

Richards vs Edwards is a pure ***** from me.


----------



## Bubz

TaylorFitz said:


> I still like Davey but it does make me wonder when I hear that he didn't have a great match against a _challenging_ El Generico. The guy is amazing when he's the underdog and the challenger. I've watched matches from 2008 in 2011 where I knew Generico wasn't winning the title yet still got sucked into the match starting rooting for Generico.


The Nigel match I'm guessing? If so it's awesome stuff. Nigel was/is in another league from anyone on the indy's these days though imo, truly one of the best in the world, especially during his title reign.


----------



## Caponex75

Man, this news of 2012 Richards is depressing me. The guy was legitimately the best guy out there in 2011 for the first 8 or so months but turned bad over night. I'll check out the match still but you guys have been horrible lately on the Richards stuff.


----------



## seabs

*Sounds like Generico didn't get to play the underdog challenger working from behind which just fucking blows. "We're equals" matches very rarely work out well unless both of the wrestlers are really fucking fantastic and have incredible chemistry. Nobody on the Indy scene right now should be working a "We're equals" match.*


----------



## jawbreaker

RawIsWar1991 said:


> Richards vs Edwards is a pure ***** from me.


which
because depending on that, you're either dumb and have no taste, or you're crazy or just trolling.

also, Seabs, I pretty much entirely agree but Hero and Claudio did it magnificently at Eight. I guess they're not "on the indy scene" any more though.


----------



## RawIsWar1991

jawbreaker said:


> which
> because depending on that, you're either dumb and have no taste, or you're crazy or just trolling.
> 
> also, Seabs, I pretty much entirely agree but Hero and Claudio did it magnificently at Eight. I guess they're not "on the indy scene" any more though.


You really don't have to sound like an elitist douchebag if you don't agree with me. The match had some epic sequences, was hard-as-hell and the ending was a feel-good moment. You could say a Great Khali match was ***** and I wouldn't judge because at the end of the day, we're all different. I don't know how hard that is to understand.


----------



## Legend

RawIsWar1991 said:


> You really don't have to sound like an elitist douchebag if you don't agree with me. The match had some epic sequences, was hard-as-hell and the ending was a feel-good moment. You could say a Great Khali match was ***** and I wouldn't judge because at the end of the day, we're all different. I don't know how hard that is to understand.


This is the Other Wrestling section. Subjectivity doesn't exist here.


----------



## jawbreaker

RawIsWar1991 said:


> You really don't have to sound like an elitist douchebag if you don't agree with me. The match had some epic sequences, was hard-as-hell and the ending was a feel-good moment. You could say a Great Khali match was ***** and I wouldn't judge because at the end of the day, we're all different. I don't know how hard that is to understand.


I'm assuming you mean the BITW match, and the only way that was five stars is if you rate out of 20.

seriously, eight posts before you come in saying it was "a pure *****" I explained fairly succinctly why the match wasn't good. I've gone far more in depth earlier in this thread, and while you're obviously new and I can't expect you to read back to June and July, you should at least read back to yesterday, and maybe try making an argument that responds to mine instead of just asserting your opinion with no support.



Legend said:


> This is the Other Wrestling section. Subjectivity doesn't exist here.


there's actually much less room for subjectivity in critical analysis than most people suspect. I guess technically everything is subjective, but there are conventions that are conventions for a reason, and it's very easy to make accurate objective statements given those conventions.


----------



## RawIsWar1991

jawbreaker said:


> I'm assuming you mean the BITW match, and the only way that was five stars is if you rate out of 20.
> 
> seriously, eight posts before you come in saying it was "a pure *****" I explained fairly succinctly why the match wasn't good. I've gone far more in depth earlier in this thread, and while you're obviously new and I can't expect you to read back to June and July, you should at least read back to yesterday, and maybe try making an argument that responds to mine instead of just asserting your opinion with no support.
> 
> 
> 
> there's actually much less room for subjectivity in critical analysis than most people suspect. I guess technically everything is subjective, but there are conventions that are conventions for a reason, and it's very easy to make accurate objective statements given those conventions.


You explained why you didn't like it. That doesn't mean no-one else can think of it highly. I explained why I liked it and you explained why you didn't. I think it's a classic. You don't. None of our opinions are fact. It's subjective, you know.


----------



## Chismo

jawbreaker said:


> there's actually much less room for subjectivity in critical analysis than most people suspect. I guess technically everything is subjective, but there are conventions that are conventions for a reason, and it's very easy to make accurate objective statements given those conventions.


Oh, gimme a break...


----------



## Certified G

jawbreaker said:


> which
> because depending on that, you're either dumb and have no taste, or you're crazy or just trolling.


Hey now, there's no need for that. 
Personally I'd rate Davey Richards vs Eddie Edwards from BITW as a 5 star match too. It's one of very few matches that went 30+ minutes that kept my attention all the way through. 
It's just my taste in wrestling as I said 1 or 2 pages back..


----------



## jawbreaker

RawIsWar1991 said:


> You explained why you didn't like it. That doesn't mean no-one else can think of it highly. I explained why I liked it and you explained why you didn't. I think it's a classic. You don't. None of our opinions are fact. It's subjective, you know.


no, I explained why it was bad.

if I said Work It was a bad show I'd be right, regardless of whether or not you like it. there are many people who like the Black Eyed Peas, but if I said they were bad I'd still be right. I'm not telling you not to like something, I'm telling you what you like is bad, and if you think it's good then you're wrong.

quality is way more objective than most people seem to think and I'm sick of the "oh well that's just my opinion, you can't say I'm wrong for liking something," because I guess I can't actually say you're wrong, but I would be correct in criticizing your taste or level of intelligence.

sorry to jump down your throat in your first day/week/month here, but this is something that really bothers me. also people just saying "I really liked this, it was great, ****1/2". if you're going to rate a match that high, justify it.


----------



## RawIsWar1991

jawbreaker said:


> no, I explained why it was bad.
> 
> if I said Work It was a bad show I'd be right, regardless of whether or not you like it. there are many people who like the Black Eyed Peas, but if I said they were bad I'd still be right. I'm not telling you not to like something, I'm telling you what you like is bad, and if you think it's good then you're wrong.
> 
> quality is way more objective than most people seem to think and I'm sick of the "oh well that's just my opinion, you can't say I'm wrong for liking something," because I guess I can't actually say you're wrong, but I would be correct in criticizing your taste or level of intelligence.
> 
> sorry to jump down your throat in your first day/week/month here, but this is something that really bothers me. also people just saying "I really liked this, it was great, ****1/2". if you're going to rate a match that high, justify it.


Once again pal, you are chatting absolute bollocks. Talent is completely subjective in the eyes of the beholder. Someone may enjoy The Black Eye Peas and they could say they are the best music group of all time and you can't say they are wrong if they back it up. 

This incorporates to wrestling too. You could watch a crappy deathmatch and say it's dog toffee, but a deathmatch fan may come in here and say '***** - GOAT match' and you can't say 'You're wrong. The spots were badly timed and their was no flow to that match' because what happened in that match may appeal to them. 

That Edwards/Richards match appealed to me because it was hard-hitting, it was spotty to my liking and it had a feel-good ending. This is what I want to get out of my wrestling. You may not agree and you can call me out on my tastes, but you cannot say I'm wrong for liking. If that's the point and nothing's subjective, what's the point of these star ratings and this threads anyway?


----------



## jawbreaker

I could absolutely say someone was wrong if they said something that was bad was good.

talent and quality are in the eye of the beholder, but that doesn't mean they're entirely subjective. I can't say I'm a better guitar player than Jimi Hendrix, and then say "well it's just my opinion, you can't say I'm wrong". That's ridiculous. I can't say that the movie I made in my backyard of my friends hitting each other with foam swords is better than Citizen Kane, and then when someone suggests I might be exaggerating, respond with "well, that's just your opinion."

Subjective opinions can be wrong, if not factually then conventionally. And even if you want to hide behind the "well it's just my opinion" defense, which I guess you're entitled to do, then I'm entirely entitled to judge you as having shitty taste, and to tell you that that's how I'm judging you because you apparently like your wrestling choreographed specifically for people with short-term memory problems.

Richards vs. Edwards did nothing to reward anyone who put any thought into it and only slightly more to get people to actually remember what took place, and therefore it was a bad wrestling match. You can say that's just my opinion, but what purpose does that serve? Think about things and try and understand them better, rather than just saying you like them.


----------



## Kid Kamikaze10

I pretty much go on the Nervosa approach when it comes to five stars.

I have to be able to defend just about every possible flaw in the match that other people come up with if I truly believe it is a five star and bring up points as to why it deserves the five stars.

Which is why, though I don't do ratings here (just some random opinions), I give five stars rarely. There is a difference between entertainment value and overall craft. Both need to be there on the optimum level for the five.


So, I agree that that Richards/Edwards match doesn't deserve a five. To me, it was more like a three-ish.


----------



## Caponex75

> I could absolutely say someone was wrong if they said something that was bad was good.


That is opinionated. That's like you saying Strong vs. Edwards at DBD was great where I declared it as horse shit. Doesn't mean I'm wrong but doesn't mean you are right ether. Even if there is a line in there, it doesn't necessarily put me in the clear to call you absolute dumbass fuckwit who shouldn't be slapping people with insults when half the shit he rates is utter garbage. There should be maturity here even if it is a little in regards to someone else's viewpoint.


----------



## jawbreaker

Call me dumb if you want (that's what I did originally). Won't stop me from saying that people who liked Davey/Eddie have no taste and by the conventional standards of taste their assessments are wrong.

there's a thing called standard narrative structure and it's standard for a reason: because that's what works best. it's really easy to say fuck that, I like explosions and nothing else, but movies that don't adhere to any sort of structure are not good movies by conventionally objective standards.

that doesn't mean there's no room for subjectivity, but there's objectively good things and objectively bad things, and a match full of bad things with few good things is not a good match.

regarding Strong/Edwards, I never tried to say it was a ***** match, or perfect, or whatever. I said Strong's performance shone through the overbooked garbage finishes and Super Eddie shit. If you didn't like Strong's performance, that's fine, but at no point did I overlook all the flaws in the match (of which there were many) and say it was perfect, like so many have said and are still saying about the BITW match.

overlooking the flaws and saying the match was perfect is wrong. period.


----------



## Chismo

You know jawbreaker, there's more than just one type of match-structure. And this is not me talking about Davey/Eddie match, this is me talking about your generalization when it comes to "structuring", which is something you constantly push through your posts.


----------



## jawbreaker

JoeRulz said:


> You know jawbreaker, there's more than just one type of match-structure. And this is not me talking about Davey/Eddie match, this is me talking about your generalization when it comes to "structuring", which is something you constantly push through your posts.


oh there's absolutely more than one type of match structure. there's a few archetypes that work well, and matches are generally better for adhering to them. that's "generally", though, and I don't penalize matches for not adhering to one of the archetypes if they do something else that works (see: Roderick Strong vs. Willie Mack).

"structure" to me is whatever builds drama in a match. it's really easy to do if you adhere to a simple narrative, and most guys should stick to doing that because they're not good enough to try creating their own structure. some guys (Steen, Finlay, Danielson, Hero, Kingston, Nigel, a few others) can do things differently and they're generally the guys who I think are the best.

Davey's got his own structure that he's been trying to push in the last year or so (see his match with Willie Mack for the most transparent example) and it's a pretty shitty structure, because it basically relies on drama to build itself through the match going a long time and doesn't reward anyone for thinking about it or invite any insights into the inner workings of the story. it's the kind of style that invites you to turn your brain off and enjoy the sweaty men kicking and throwing each other. which is good if you don't like to think about wrestling, but I like wrestling that invites me to consider exactly why they're doing everything that they do, and rewards me for figuring it out. that's a whole lot easier to do if you build on top of a simple structure and don't try and create something new.


----------



## Certified G

jawbreaker said:


> Davey's got his own structure that he's been trying to push in the last year or so (see his match with Willie Mack for the most transparent example) and it's a pretty shitty structure, because it basically relies on drama to build itself through the match going a long time and doesn't reward anyone for thinking about it or invite any insights into the inner workings of the story. it's the kind of style that invites you to turn your brain off and enjoy the sweaty men kicking and throwing each other. which is good if you don't like to think about wrestling, *but I like wrestling that invites me to consider exactly why they're doing everything that they do, and rewards me for figuring it out. * that's a whole lot easier to do if you build on top of a simple structure and don't try and create something new.


Well I'm the exact opposite of that. I hardly ever watch a match and wonder why the moves are being etc.. So yeah I kind of just watch wrestling without thinking about why things are done (not always, there's definitely matches where stuff bothers me because it makes no sence, but it doesn't happen that often for me).


----------



## Mr Joe Perfect

Here's a list of everything i've seen which i think is worthy (still waiting for DGUK shows but still):


1) CM Punk vs John Cena - WWE Championship - Money In The Bank 2011 - ****3/4
2) Davey Richards vs Eddie Edwards - ROH World Championship - Best In The World 2011 - ****3/4
3) Seth Rollins vs Dean Ambrose - FCW 02.10.2011 - ****3/4
4) Kevin Steen vs El Generico - Ladder Match - PWG World Championship - Steen Wolf - ****3/4
5) Kotaro Suzuki vs Eddie Edwards - GHC Jr. Heavyweight Championship - NOAH 29.01.2011 - ****1/2
6) American Wolves vs Shelton Benjamin & Charlie Haas – ROH Honor Takes Center Stage Chapter 2 - ****1/2
7) Hiroshi Tanahashi vs Shinsuke Nakamura - IWGP Heavyweight Championship - NJPW 03.05.2011 - ****1/2
8) CM Punk vs John Cena - WWE Championship - Summerslam 2011 - ****1/2
9) Eddie Edwards vs Chris Hero - ROH World Championship - Revolution Canada - ****1/2
10) Kings Of Wrestling vs LAX – ROH Manhattan Mayhem IV - ****1/2

11) Eddie Edwards vs Roderick Strong - ROH World Championship – ROH Manhattan Mayhem IV - ****1/2
12) Go Shiozaki vs Katsuhiko Nakajima - NOAH European Navigation 2011 Night 2 - ****1/2
13) Eddie Edwards vs Roderick Strong - Ringmaster Challenge – ROH Death Before Dishonor IX - ****1/2
14) Kevin Steen & Akira Tozawa vs El Generico & Ricochet – PWG All Star Weekend 8 Night 1 - ****1/2
15) Seth Rollins vs Damien Sandow - FCW 15 Championship - FCW 30.10.2011 - ****1/2
16) Kings Of Wrestling vs Takeshi Morishima & Shuhei Taniguchi - NOAH European Navigation 2011 Night 2 - ****1/2
17) Akira Tozawa & BxB Hulk vs SHINGO & YAMATO - Open The Twin Gate Championships - Dragon Gate 25.12.2011 - ****1/4
18) Seth Rollins vs Dean Ambrose - FCW 15 Championship - FCW 18.09.2011 - ****1/4
19) Undertaker vs Triple H - No Holds Barred - WrestleMania 27 - ****1/4
20) Eddie Edwards vs Christopher Daniels - 2/3 Falls - ROH TV Championship – ROH 9th Anniversary Show - ****1/4
21) El Generico vs Kevin Steen – PWG BOLA 2011 - ****1/4
22) Randy Orton vs Christian - World Heavyweight Championship - Over The Limit 2011 - ****1/4
23) Claudio Castagnoli vs El Generico - PWG World Championship – PWG Kurt RusselReunion II - ****1/4
24) Kings Of Wrestling vs Kevin Steen & Akira Tozawa – PWG DDT4 2011 - ****1/4
25) Davey Richards vs TJ Perkins – ROH SoCal Showdown II - ****1/4

26) Edge vs Rey Mysterio vs Kane vs Wade Barrett vs Drew McIntyre vs Big Show - Elimination Chamber Match - World Heavyweight Championship - Elimination Chamber 2011 - ****1/4
27) Austin Aries vs Low Ki vs Jack Evans vs Zema Ion - Destination X 2011 - ****1/4
28) Young Bucks vs El Generico & Ricochet - PWG World Tag Team Championships – PWG Card Subject To Change III - ****1/4
29) CM Punk vs Alberto Del Rio - WWE Championship - Survivor Series 2011 - ****1/4
30) Young Bucks vs Kings Of Wrestling - PWG World Tag Team Championships – PWG BOLA 2011 - ****1/4
31) Seth Rollins vs Damien Sandow - FCW 15 Championship - FCW 13.11.2011 - ****1/4
32) PAC vs Ricochet - Open The Brave Gate Championship - Dragon Gate 19.11.2011 - ****1/4
33) Hiroshi Tanahashi vs Hirooki Goto - IWGP Heavyweight Championship – NJPW 18.06.2011 - ****1/4
34) Akira Tozawa vs BxB Hulk – DGUSA United We Stand - ****1/4
35) Davey Richards vs Claudio Castagnoli – ROH Defy Or Deny - ****1/4
36) Chris Hero vs KENTA - NOAH & wXw Genesis In Germany - ****1/4
37) Hiroshi Tanahashi vs Satoshi Kojima – NJPW IWGP Heavyweight Championship - 20.02.2011 - ****1/4
38) Davey Richards vs Zack Sabre Jr. - wXw 16 Carat Gold Tournament Day 2 - ****1/4
39) Davey Richards vs Roderick Strong – ROH Honor Takes Center Stage Chapter 1 - ****1/4
40) Kings Of Wrestling vs American Wolves - Revolution USA - ****1/4
41) Akira Tozawa vs Chris Hero – PWG All Star Weekend 8 Night 2 - ****1/4
42) Hiroshi Tanahashi vs Yuji Nagata - IWGP Heavyweight Championship - NJPW 04.12.2011 - ****1/4
American Wolves vs All Night Express – ROH Gateway Of Honor - ****1/4
43) El Generico vs Roderick Strong - Steel Cage Match - No Escape - ****1/4
44) CM Punk vs Dolph Ziggler - Raw 21.11.2011 - ****1/4
45) Michael Elgin vs Eddie Edwards vs Jay Briscoe vs Mark Briscoe vs Kyle O'Reilly vs Roderick Strong - Survival Of The Fittest Match - ROH Survival Of The Fittest 2011 - ****1/4
46) Kevin Steen vs Chris Hero – PWG Kurt RusselReunion II - ****1/4
47) Shelton Benjamin & Charlie Haas vs Kings Of Wrestling – ROH SoCal Showdown II - ****1/4
48) Terry Funk vs Jerry Lawler - No Holds Barred - NEW Autumn Ambush 2011 - ****
49) Christian vs Alberto Del Rio - Ladder Match - World Heavyweight Championship - Extreme Rules 2011 - ****
50) Daniel Bryan vs Sheamus vs Kane vs Wade Barrett vs Cody Rhodes vs Sin Cara vs Justin Gabriel vs Heath Slater - Money In The Bank Ladder Match - Money In The Bank 2011 - ****

51) Hiroshi Tanahashi vs Giant Bernard - IWGP Heavyweight Championship - NJPW 18.07.2011 - ****
52) Takashi Sugiura vs Giant Bernard - GHC Heavyweight Championship - NOAH 05.03.2011 - ****
53) Go Shiozaki vs KENTA - GHC Heavyweight Championship - NOAH 27.11.2011 - ****
54) Roderick Strong vs El Generico - ROH World Championship - ROH SoCal Showdown II - ****
55) Seth Rollins vs Dean Ambrose - FCW 15 Championship - FCW 28.08.2011 - ****
56) Hiroshi Tanahashi vs Yuji Nagata - IWGP Heavyweight Championship - 03.04.2011 - ****
57) Edge vs Dolph Ziggler - World Heavyweight Championship - Royal Rumble 2011 - ****
58) Christopher Daniels vs Eddie Edwards - ROH TV Championship - ROH on HDNet 31.01.2011 - ****
59) Randy Orton vs Christian - No Holds Barred - World Heavyweight Championship - Summerslam 2011 - ****
60) Christopher Daniels vs Davey Richards - Pure Wrestling Rules – ROH Manhattan Mayhem IV - ****
61) Young Bucks vs Kevin Steen & Akira Tozawa – PWG DDT4 2011 - ****
62) Eddie Edwards vs Christopher Daniels - ROH World Championship – ROH Honor Takes Center Stage Chapter 1 - ****
63) Takashi Sugiura vs Dave Mastiff - GHC Heavyweight Championship - NOAH European Navigation Night 1 - ****
64) Christopher Daniels vs Claudio Castagnoli - ROH TV Championship – ROH Only The Strong Will Survive - ****
65) Davey Richards, Shelton Benjamin & Charlie Haas vs Roderick Strong & Kings Of Wrestling – ROH Worlds Greatest - ****
66) El Generico vs Kotaro Suzuki - wXw 16 Carat Gold Tournament Day 1 - ****
67) Zack Sabre Jr. vs KENTA - NOAH European Navigation 2011 Night 2 - ****
68) Young Bucks vs American Wolves – PWG DDT4 2011 - ****
69) CIMA & Ricochet vs PAC & Dragon Kid - Open The Twin Gate Championships - Dragon Gate 17.07.2011 - ****
70) Kings Of Wrestling vs Shelton Benjamin & Charlie Haas - ROH World Tag Team Championships – ROH Honor Takes Center Stage Chapter 1 - ****
71) Chris Hero vs TJ Perkins – ROH Defy Or Deny - ****
72) Kevin Steen vs PAC – PWG Eight - ****
73) PAC vs Naruki Doi - Open The Brave Gate Championship - Dragon Gate 05.05.2011 - ****
74) Kota Ibushi vs Ryusuke Taguchi - NJPW 10.06.2011 - ****
75) Davey Richards vs Low Ki – PWG Kurt RusselReunion II - ****

76) Masato Yoshino & PAC vs Naruki Doi & Ricochet – DGUSA United: Philly - ****
77) Triple H vs CM Punk - No DQ Match - Night Of Champions 2011 - ****
78) Seth Rollins vs Damien Sandow - FCW 15 Championship - FCW 19.06.2011 - ****
79) Takashi Sugiura vs Kensuke Sasaki - NOAH 23.07.2011 - ****
80) John Cena vs. Randy Orton vs. John Morrison vs. R-Truth vs. CM Punk vs. King Sheamus – Elimination Chamber Match – Elimination Chamber 2011 - ****
81) Briscoes vs All Night Express – ROH Honor Takes Center Stage Chapter 2 - ****
82) American Wolves vs Adam Cole & Kyle O'Reilly - No Escape - ****
83) Prince Devitt & Ryusuke Taguchi vs Kota Ibushi & Kenny Omega – NJPW 23.01.2011 - ****
84) Takashi Sugiura vs Claudio Castagnoli - GHC Heavyweight Championship - NOAH & wXw Genesis In Germany - ****
85) Masaaki Mochizuki vs YAMATO - Open The Dream Gate Championship - Dragon Gate 05.05.2011 - ****
86) Kings Of Wrestling, Roderick Strong & Christopher Daniels vs Davey Richards, El Generico & Briscoes – ROH Champions vs All Stars - ****
87) Randy Orton vs Christian - World Heavyweight Championship - Capitol Punishment 2011 - ****
88) Davey Richards vs Chris Hero – ROH Only The Strong Will Survive - ****
89) Charlie Haas & Shelton Benjamin vs Adam Cole & Kyle O'Reilly - ROH World Tag Team Championships - ROH Gateway Of Honor - ****
90) Davey Richards & Briscoes vs Roderick Strong & Kings Of Wrestling - ROH on HDNet 04.04.2011 - ****
91) Claudio Castagnoli vs El Generico – PWG BOLA 2011 - ****
92) Christian vs Randy Orton - World Heavyweight Championship - Smackdown 06.05.2011 - ****
93) Roderick Strong vs El Generico – ROH Honor Takes Center Stage Chapter 2 - ****
Bad Intentions vs No Limit - IWGP Tag Team Champions - NJPW 03.05.2011 - ****
94) LDRS Of The New School vs Adam Cole & Kyle O'Reilly - wXw 16 Carat Gold Tournament Day 3 -****
95) Davey Richards vs Kenny Omega - NJPW 08.06.2011 - ****
96) Young Bucks vs Adam Cole & Kyle O'Reilly - PWG World Tag Team Championships - Steen Wolf - ****
97) Akira Tozawa vs YAMATO - No Ropes Match - Dragon Gate 16.09.2011 - ****
98) Cody Rhodes vs Rey Mysterio - WrestleMania 27 - ****
99) AJ Styles vs Bully Ray - Last Man Standing - Slammiversary 2011 - ****
100) Eddie Edwards vs Roderick Strong - ROH World Championship - Supercard Of Honor VI - ****

101) Yoshihiro Takayama vs KENTA - NOAH 15.01.2011 - ****
102) PAC vs Naruki Doi - Open The Brave Gate Championship - Dragon Gate 05.05.2011 - ****
103) Seth Rollins & Richie Steamboat vs Los Aviadores - FCW 05.06.2011 - ****
104) Eddie Edwards vs Michael Elgin – ROH Defy Or Deny - ****
105) Davey Richards vs Eddie Edwards - ROH World Championship – ROH Final Battle 2011 - ****
106) Takashi Sugiura vs Trevor Murdoch - GHC Heavyweight Championship - NOAH 21.03.2011 - ****
107) Claudio Castagnoli vs Chris Hero - PWG World Championship – PWG Eight - ****
108) Randy Orton vs CM Punk - WrestleMania 27 - ****
109) John Cena vs Rey Mysterio - WWE Championship - Raw 25.07.2011 - ****
110) El Generico vs Christopher Daniels - ROH TV Championship - Best In The World 2011 - ****
111) Jushin Liger vs Great Sasuke - NJPW 28.05.2011 - ****
112) CM Punk vs Rey Mysterio - Capitol Punishment 2011 - ****
113) Kotaro Suzuki vs Ricky Marvin - GHC Jr. Heavyweight Championship - NOAH 08.05.2011 - ****


----------



## Nervosa

Jeez, it really is too bad I hate wrestling, right now, or I would help Jawbreaker shut down these people who clearly have no clue how to defend their positions properly without resorting to 'I'm entitled to my undefended opinion.'

Luckily, people considering that garbage like Richards/Edwards is a great match, and pretending botches in Punk/Cena didn't happen are the exact reason I'm not tuning in anymore.

Keep up the good fight, Jaws. sorry to abandon you. You really are the only one left on this board who demands any quality from their wrestling, anymore.


----------



## milkman7

A serious contender for match of the year, and no, I'm not joking

Jerry Lawler/Dr. Tim Linder vs Bill Dundee/Dr. Brian McCarver - 3/4/11

Part 1:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ua4ORDQqs4Y

Part 2:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gYBU40nlIY&feature=related


----------



## antoniomare007

Nervosa said:


> Jeez, it really is too bad I hate wrestling, right now, or I would help Jawbreaker shut down these people who clearly have no clue how to defend their positions properly without resorting to 'I'm entitled to my undefended opinion.'
> 
> Luckily, people considering that garbage like Richards/Edwards is a great match, and pretending botches in Punk/Cena didn't happen are the exact reason I'm not tuning in anymore.
> 
> Keep up the good fight, Jaws. sorry to abandon you. You really are the only one left on this board who demands any quality from their wrestling, anymore.












:busta


----------



## Generation-Now

Nervosa said:


> Jeez, it really is too bad I hate wrestling, right now, or I would help Jawbreaker shut down these people who clearly have no clue how to defend their positions properly without resorting to 'I'm entitled to my undefended opinion.'
> 
> Luckily, people considering that garbage like Richards/Edwards is a great match, and pretending botches in Punk/Cena didn't happen are the exact reason I'm not tuning in anymore.
> 
> Keep up the good fight, Jaws. sorry to abandon you. You really are the only one left on this board who demands any quality from their wrestling, anymore.


lol he blindly defends Strong/Edwards the exact same way he's criticizing people for defending Strong/Richards. I mean, there's being an elitist douchebag, then there's being a walking contradiction...


----------



## lewieG

Nervosa said:


> Jeez, it really is too bad I hate wrestling, right now, or I would help Jawbreaker shut down these people who clearly have no clue how to defend their positions properly without resorting to 'I'm entitled to my undefended opinion.'
> 
> Luckily, people considering that garbage like Richards/Edwards is a great match, and pretending botches in Punk/Cena didn't happen are the exact reason I'm not tuning in anymore.
> 
> Keep up the good fight, Jaws. sorry to abandon you. You really are the only one left on this board who demands any quality from their wrestling, anymore.


And I thought I took wrestling too seriously sometimes...


----------



## RawIsWar1991

Nervosa said:


> Jeez, it really is too bad I hate wrestling, right now, or I would help Jawbreaker shut down these people who clearly have no clue how to defend their positions properly without resorting to 'I'm entitled to my undefended opinion.'
> 
> Luckily, people considering that garbage like Richards/Edwards is a great match, and pretending botches in Punk/Cena didn't happen are the exact reason I'm not tuning in anymore.
> 
> Keep up the good fight, Jaws. sorry to abandon you. You really are the only one left on this board who demands any quality from their wrestling, anymore.


I've defended my opinion countless times, but you two just can't let it set. I enjoyed the match because it had epic moves, counters and feel-good ending to boot. That's my explanation.

Not everyone is an '...but it's not my opinion, I'm right,' elitist douchebag virgin who hasn't seen sunlight in the last decade. Stop taking wrestling so seriously, and let other people enjoy which you can't seem to enjoy. You could use the old 'Only stupid people enjoyed that match' excuse, but guess what? Wrestling IS made for stupid people.


----------



## Concrete

Jawbreaker may have some sort of point if it weren't for the way he comes off. I do believe there is a difference between quality versus how much I like a match. Like I'm not going to watch The Expendables and think it is the greatest movie ever but it is tons of fun. I thought Davey vs. Eddie from BITH was ****1/4 but if you think it is higher that's okay. Most people will not kill you here. But when someone says "If you liked this match then you are stupid" then they are completely ignorant and not worth anyone's time. I mean it wasn't a terrible match by any means. Some people talk about it like if it were a match between two divas.


----------



## jawbreaker

Generation-Now said:


> lol he blindly defends Strong/Edwards the exact same way he's criticizing people for defending Strong/Richards. I mean, there's being an elitist douchebag, then there's being a walking contradiction...


how have I blindly defended Strong/Edwards? At no point did I ever pretend that it wasn't an overbooked clusterfuck with a whole bunch of stupid shit that dragged it down, but I'm not pretending it was ***** or even close to it. It was an okay match with some really stupid booking and needless shoehorning in of Truth Martini and Jim Cornette, made really good by Strong's fantastic heel performance. I've defended it at great length several times now, I've responded to criticism and explained why I don't agree, and nobody has said anything sufficiently convincing for me to change my mind (something I'm entirely open to doing and have done several times in the past).



RawIsWar1991 said:


> I've defended my opinion countless times, but you two just can't let it set. I enjoyed the match because it had epic moves, counters and feel-good ending to boot. That's my explanation.
> 
> Not everyone is an '...but it's not my opinion, I'm right,' elitist douchebag virgin who hasn't seen sunlight in the last decade. Stop taking wrestling so seriously, and let other people enjoy which you can't seem to enjoy. You could use the old 'Only stupid people enjoyed that match' excuse, but guess what? Wrestling IS made for stupid people.


You haven't responded to any criticism. How is restating the same threadbare arguments "defending your opinion"? I've explained why the match was bad, and you're not responding to anything I'm saying, just throwing out tired clichés that reveal your ignorance.

And yes, wrestling was made for stupid people, but why does that mean it can't appeal to smart people as well? There's wrestling out there that does that, saying "wrestling is for idiots" doesn't make you right. You're allowed to enjoy bad wrestling, and I'm allowed to tell you the wrestling you like is bad. If you're interested in engaging in dialogue with the intention of furthering your understanding (something I did a whole lot when I first came here), I'd be glad to talk about wrestling with you. But if you're just going to tell people what you like, then why are you here? Nobody cares what you like if you're not willing to discuss it with people who disagree. Capone has radically different tastes from me, but he'll defend them well and make me think about them more than I normally would. Segunda Caida keeps pimping whatever lucha he likes (all of it seems to involve Black Terry) and even though I've never really liked lucha when I've watched it in the past, he's making me want to go and get into it. That's what this message board is for. Or should be for.

also, I find the personal jabs to be hilarious considering I haven't watched any wrestling in a month and a half because I've been too busy having a girlfriend.


----------



## WOOLCOCK

Agreed with Jawbreaker, everyone can like what they like but it does get annoying when one poster makes maybe a 2/3 paragraph post explaining what they disliked about the match, and which gives enough room for someone to pick apart each point and talk about it offering an alternative view...and then gets a 'well the counters were ace' response. If the counters looked slick and cool to you then that's perfectly fine, but it would be nice to expand upon that and talk about what specifically made the counters feel organinc and awesome to you.

The whole point of a forum is to discuss contrasting opinions and create good discussion, I understand people get bored of the same Angle/Eddie/Davey bashing but usually the sole reason the discussions get tedious isn't because its been discussed before..but rather only one side seems to be making valid points whereas the other side resorts to 'obvious troll is obvious' comments. I'm sure a lot of people remember that Davey discussion a couple of months back in here involving Capone, Crabtree, Legend, Bubz, Myself, Jawbreaker and maybe Seabs as well as Antonio, SuperduperSonic and possibly McQueen which basically broken down into numerous well made points about Davey being rejected by people saying it wasn't a discussion worth having.

Also Jawbreaker: don't think I've forgotten about all that prime Lawler I pimped to you months back, .


----------



## jawbreaker

Oh shit, yeah. I watched all the Lawler/Dundee stuff I could find on Youtube and enjoyed the hell out of it. Not something I could see myself watching if it was just the matches but when I got the angles surrounding it it was so much fun. There's a bit where they talk about each other's cars and it felt so natural that I completely forgot it was a work for a second. Wish there was readily accessible episodes of the TV shows every week from the great territories because it's always tons of fun to watch.


----------



## Legend

Nervosa said:


> Jeez, it really is too bad I hate wrestling, right now, or I would help Jawbreaker shut down these people who clearly have no clue how to defend their positions properly without resorting to 'I'm entitled to my undefended opinion.'
> 
> Luckily, people considering that garbage like Richards/Edwards is a great match, and pretending botches in Punk/Cena didn't happen are the exact reason I'm not tuning in anymore.


You don't watch anymore because people don't share your opinions? 

What a great attitude to carry through life.


----------



## Nervosa

Generation-Now said:


> lol he blindly defends Strong/Edwards the exact same way he's criticizing people for defending Strong/Richards. I mean, there's being an elitist douchebag, then there's being a walking contradiction...


You're not even reading what he's saying. He never claimed it was five stars: that's the major difference here. 



RawIsWar1991 said:


> I've defended my opinion countless times, but you two just can't let it set. I enjoyed the match because it had epic moves, counters and feel-good ending to boot. That's my explanation.
> 
> Not everyone is an '...but it's not my opinion, I'm right,' elitist douchebag virgin who hasn't seen sunlight in the last decade. Stop taking wrestling so seriously, and let other people enjoy which you can't seem to enjoy. You could use the old 'Only stupid people enjoyed that match' excuse, but guess what? Wrestling IS made for stupid people.


It isn't a 'if its not my opinion, I'm right,' attitude. Its a 'If you're not going to intelligently respond to my legitimate criticism, stop wasting my time,' attitude. Everyone is entitled to their opinion..........and anyone ELSE is also entitled to make fun of that opinion if it is poorly defended. Like yours have been. That's not being elitist: its just asking for intelligence when it comes to presenting an argument. 

That is certainly a more than reasonable request. 

Saying wrestling is made for stupid people is the most idiotic thing you have said....and that covers some ground. Way to insult both sides of the argument there. That, right there, is exactly why it should be encouraged to make fun of poor arguments. In your desperate attempt to prove your point, you have gone and insulted just about every member of the board, whether they agree wit hyou or not. Well done: that's a new standard in poor arguing. Give yourself a hand. :flip

That's like saying movies are for stupid people. Just because some (most, really) films are made to entertain people who are too intellectually lazy to actually turn their brains on at the theater doesn't mean that the entire industry only caters to the stupid. 

For every Avatar and and Dark Knight (bland storyless action movies that people can enjoy because it requires no actual thought) there is Wild Strawberries. Sure, it requires you to actually THINK, but that is what makes the end product so worth it.

for every Davey/Eddie, there is Shinobu/TEIOH vs. Madoka/Mashimo. 

there's just so much less of the latter that I don't really feel like waiting around for it anymore.



enlightenedone9 said:


> Jawbreaker may have some sort of point if it weren't for the way he comes off. I do believe there is a difference between quality versus how much I like a match. Like I'm not going to watch The Expendables and think it is the greatest movie ever but it is tons of fun. I thought Davey vs. Eddie from BITH was ****1/4 but if you think it is higher that's okay. Most people will not kill you here. But when someone says "If you liked this match then you are stupid" then they are completely ignorant and not worth anyone's time. I mean it wasn't a terrible match by any means. Some people talk about it like if it were a match between two divas.


I'm not saying that if you liked this match you're stupid: I'm saying if you liked this match you care whole lot more about moves then story. I am following that up by saying that if all you care about is moves, then we watch wrestling for different reasons. Davey/Edwards had a lot of spiffy moves: and it had nothing else. 

If you're like me, and spiffy moves don't mean a thing if there isn't any reasoning behind it, you don't have any use for that kind of opinion. They are free to have an opinion of course: and we are just as free to ridicule their lack of putting any actual thought into wrestling. 




Legend said:


> You don't watch anymore because people don't share your opinions?
> 
> What a great attitude to carry through life.


Don't get too proud of yourself. There simply isn't a wrestling product tailored to my taste any more. The fact that everyone is accepting this criminally lowered bar of quality is just icing on the cake.



Segunda Caida said:


> Agreed with Jawbreaker, everyone can like what they like but it does get annoying when one poster makes maybe a 2/3 paragraph post explaining what they disliked about the match, and which gives enough room for someone to pick apart each point and talk about it offering an alternative view...and then gets a 'well the counters were ace' response. If the counters looked slick and cool to you then that's perfectly fine, but it would be nice to expand upon that and talk about what specifically made the counters feel organinc and awesome to you.
> 
> The whole point of a forum is to discuss contrasting opinions and create good discussion, I understand people get bored of the same Angle/Eddie/Davey bashing but usually the sole reason the discussions get tedious isn't because its been discussed before..but rather only one side seems to be making valid points whereas the other side resorts to 'obvious troll is obvious' comments. I'm sure a lot of people remember that Davey discussion a couple of months back in here involving Capone, Crabtree, Legend, Bubz, Myself, Jawbreaker and maybe Seabs as well as Antonio, SuperduperSonic and possibly McQueen which basically broken down into numerous well made points about Davey being rejected by people saying it wasn't a discussion worth having.
> 
> Also Jawbreaker: don't think I've forgotten about all that prime Lawler I pimped to you months back, .


Jeez this post is fantastic.


----------



## EffectRaven

American Wolves vs. The All Night Express - ROH: Gateway to Honor ****

Every bit as good as it was when I saw it live. What made this match fun was that both teams brought out some of their more heelish tendencies. Made for an interesting and action packed match. Rhett Titus gets better everytime I see him, his selling, facial expressions and overall storytelling has come a long way.


----------



## Bubz

I'm surprised this thread is still this active lol. And holy shit, Nervosa is back.

Btw, I agree with Nervosa, jawbreaker and Segunda Caida for the most part. Can't be arsed to say anything else on the subject anymore, I got bored of it ages ago, and it always ends up being the same 'argument'.


----------



## jawbreaker

EffectRaven said:


> American Wolves vs. The All Night Express - ROH: Gateway to Honor ****
> 
> Every bit as good as it was when I saw it live. What made this match fun was that both teams brought out some of their more heelish tendencies. Made for an interesting and action packed match. Rhett Titus gets better everytime I see him, his selling, facial expressions and overall storytelling has come a long way.


now I feel like I have to watch this match. we'll see how it goes.


----------



## TelkEvolon

Nervosa said:


> for every Davey/Eddie, there is *Shinobu/TEIOH vs. Madoka/Mashimo*


God damnit, I gotta' watch that match!


----------



## Bubz

jawbreaker said:


> now I feel like I have to watch this match. we'll see how it goes.


I enjoyed it, it was just 30 minutes of moves basically but I expected a spotfest and it's what I got pretty much. I don't mind that kind of thing in tag matches, especially between two face teams or whatever. It's in singles matches where it really bugs me.


----------



## jawbreaker

it still bothers me in tag matches, probably even more because there's a ready-made story to tell if you just work one guy over. workovers in tag matches also have probably the easiest, but most fun way to get heat in wrestling.

Now I don't want to watch the match. They seriously had Rhett Titus in there, a fantastic sympathetic babyface, and they wanted to get the ANX over, and they didn't just have Richards and Edwards kick the shit out of Titus until King comes in and looks like a god?

whyyyyyyyyyyyy


----------



## Bubz

jawbreaker said:


> it still bothers me in tag matches, probably even more because there's a ready-made story to tell if you just work one guy over. workovers in tag matches also have probably the easiest, but most fun way to get heat in wrestling.
> 
> Now I don't want to watch the match. They seriously had Rhett Titus in there, a fantastic sympathetic babyface, and they wanted to get the ANX over, and they didn't just have Richards and Edwards kick the shit out of Titus until King comes in and looks like a god?
> 
> whyyyyyyyyyyyy


Yeah, I completely agree. But I didn't expect that going in so it didn't bother me as much I guess.

And I also agree on the tag formula being great obviously, but I find it more acceptable for a spotfest to take place in a tag match than in a singles match, maybe only because there are more guys in there to take and deliver moves after the other participants have just done the same. But any tag match is made better if they go with the classic STF and FIP structures and sadly it's something ROH refuses to do anymore.


----------



## seabs

jawbreaker said:


> it still bothers me in tag matches, probably even more because there's a ready-made story to tell if you just work one guy over. workovers in tag matches also have probably the easiest, but most fun way to get heat in wrestling.
> 
> Now I don't want to watch the match. They seriously had Rhett Titus in there, a fantastic sympathetic babyface, and they wanted to get the ANX over, and they didn't just have Richards and Edwards kick the shit out of Titus until King comes in and looks like a god?
> 
> whyyyyyyyyyyyy


*That's exactly what I was thinking when I watched it and they started off like that and I started thinking it could actually be really good but then ANX just got the tag and the match lost all it's heat and momentum and wasn't even halfway through I don't think.

Spotty tags are fine as long as they're under 15 minutes max. I think once you go over that time you really need to add some story or structure to it and that's what the match was desperately missing.*


----------



## Caponex75

Segunda Caida said:


> The whole point of a forum is to discuss contrasting opinions and create good discussion, I understand people get bored of the same Angle/Eddie/Davey bashing but usually the sole reason the discussions get tedious isn't because its been discussed before..but rather only one side seems to be making valid points whereas the other side resorts to 'obvious troll is obvious' comments. I'm sure a lot of people remember that Davey discussion a couple of months back in here involving Capone, Crabtree, Legend, Bubz, Myself, Jawbreaker and maybe Seabs as well as Antonio, SuperduperSonic and possibly McQueen which basically broken down into numerous well made points about Davey being rejected by people saying it wasn't a discussion worth having.


Are you talking about when Nervosa and I argued in this thread for about 10 pages where I was basically making points and he was like "Nah that didn't happen"? Holy shit that was the most uneventual argument I've ever had going nowhere. I also have no problem defending/making a point but there is certain ways you should go about it without trying to make your opinion seem like fact when it is isn't. No one is stupid for liking Richards/Edwards the same way no one is stupid for liking Hero/Claudio or Dragon Gate Matches. You know how much stuff I watched by word of Seabs praising that I didn't think was worth a buck 50 soaking wet? Lord only knows. Fact is that I have my opinion and he has his. I hated Hero/Claudio because I thought it was a long, boring, stupid, and anti-climatic contest that was drawn out only because Hero thinks 40+ contests means instant great. I love psychology and I(As well as the crowd) were waiting for it to end. Doesn't justify me calling Bubz a dipshit for liking it. Hence the argument here and why I have a problem with what Jawbreaker says. Him thinking Richards/Edwards is garbage is entirely different story.


----------



## antoniomare007

Nervosa said:


> for every Davey/Eddie, there is Shinobu/TEIOH vs. Madoka/Mashimo.


Fuck you man. Just when I just want to have a little fun trolling you, you make this statement...I fucking love that tag match, Shinobu's selling is one of the best things I've ever seen.


----------



## Nervosa

Caponex75 said:


> Are you talking about when Nervosa and I argued in this thread for about 10 pages where I was basically making points and he was like "Nah that didn't happen"? Holy shit that was the most uneventual argument I've ever had going nowhere. I also have no problem defending/making a point but there is certain ways you should go about it without trying to make your opinion seem like fact when it is isn't. No one is stupid for liking Richards/Edwards the same way no one is stupid for liking Hero/Claudio or Dragon Gate Matches. You know how much stuff I watched by word of Seabs praising that I didn't think was worth a buck 50 soaking wet? Lord only knows. Fact is that I have my opinion and he has his. I hated Hero/Claudio because I thought it was a long, boring, stupid, and anti-climatic contest that was drawn out only because Hero thinks 40+ contests means instant great. I love psychology and I(As well as the crowd) were waiting for it to end. Doesn't justify me calling Bubz a dipshit for liking it. Hence the argument here and why I have a problem with what Jawbreaker says. Him thinking Richards/Edwards is garbage is entirely different story.


You mean that 10 page argument where you made things up that didn't happen in order to create story for a match where both competitors clearly never bothered? Yeah, I remember that one. 

But that is not the conversation he is talking about. That was entirely different. Far after I stopped posting here. 

But as you said, that is a different story. 

I don't think you really understand what Jaws is saying. He isn't saying people don't have a right to there opinions. all of you have a right to it. We just have a right to 

1. Ask for more
2. Ask for reasonable support
3. Call people stupid when condition #2 isn't met. Hopefully using ridicule. 



antoniomare007 said:


> Fuck you man. Just when I just want to have a little fun trolling you, you make this statement...I fucking love that tag match, Shinobu's selling is one of the best things I've ever seen.


ain't that the truth. That sell-job was incredible. 

The truly great brings us together, that's for sure.


----------



## WOOLCOCK

Nervosa is correct, I recall that long debate between you two but the one I was on about started when I think Legend said something along the lines of 'Davey hate is just that time of the month'. It prompted myself and others to cite what about Davey we didn't particularly like, but between Crabtree and a few others we somehow ended up on people arguing we thought Kevin Nash was a better worker or something crazy like that.


----------



## FITZ

Having a different opinion is fine really but you really should be able to back up why a match that a lot people hated was amazing. 

I know when the whole Undertaker/Triple H debate was going I went and posted one of the longest reviews of the match that I've ever written to back up my unpopular opinion. 

I really think that if you say something is a MOTYC and someone asks you why you should be able to come up with more than, "It was awesome!" or something along those lines.


----------



## Bubz

Caponex75 said:


> Are you talking about when Nervosa and I argued in this thread for about 10 pages where I was basically making points and he was like "Nah that didn't happen"? Holy shit that was the most uneventual argument I've ever had going nowhere. I also have no problem defending/making a point but there is certain ways you should go about it without trying to make your opinion seem like fact when it is isn't. No one is stupid for liking Richards/Edwards the same way no one is stupid for liking Hero/Claudio or Dragon Gate Matches. You know how much stuff I watched by word of Seabs praising that I didn't think was worth a buck 50 soaking wet? Lord only knows. Fact is that I have my opinion and he has his. *I hated Hero/Claudio because I thought it was a long, boring, stupid, and anti-climatic contest that was drawn out only because Hero thinks 40+ contests means instant great. I love psychology and I(As well as the crowd) were waiting for it to end. Doesn't justify me calling Bubz a dipshit for liking it. Hence the argument here and why I have a problem with what Jawbreaker says. Him thinking Richards/Edwards is garbage is entirely different story.*


Screw you man! That match was awesome! 

But seriously, you backed up your argument man (you always do) and I understand why you didn't like it. It's something I wish more people would do better like Taylor said above.


----------



## Generation-Now

jawbreaker said:


> how have I blindly defended Strong/Edwards? At no point did I ever pretend that it wasn't an overbooked clusterfuck with a whole bunch of stupid shit that dragged it down, but I'm not pretending it was ***** or even close to it. It was an okay match with some really stupid booking and needless shoehorning in of Truth Martini and Jim Cornette, made really good by Strong's fantastic heel performance. I've defended it at great length several times now, I've responded to criticism and explained why I don't agree, and nobody has said anything sufficiently convincing for me to change my mind (something I'm entirely open to doing and have done several times in the past).


LMAO this is exactly what you're attacking him for..

Ignoring the criticism of others because it doesn't suit your agenda. You think it was "made really good" despite the *obvious flaws*, and that's your subjective opinion, but going by your very own logic, that opinion is wrong. You don't agree with the criticism of Edwards/Strong, and neither does he toward your criticism of Edwards/Richards...

I mean, how can you not see the hypocrisy here? :lol


----------



## jawbreaker

Can you seriously not see the difference between my review of Strong/Edwards and saying Richards/Edwards was "a pure *****" and then clarifying to say that that meant that it "had some epic sequences, was hard-as-hell and the ending was a feel-good moment"?

The post above wasn't clear: it should read "responded to criticism and explained why I don't agree *with other ratings*". Most of the criticisms of Strong/Edwards I agree with, and that's why I have it at **** (and a pretty weak ****). But Strong's performance was one of the best heel performances I saw in 2011 and that's why I felt comfortable giving it a moderately high rating. Just because it had flaws, obvious, glaring ones even, doesn't mean it wasn't good. It means it wasn't perfect, but where am I arguing that it was perfect?

I mean, how can you not see the difference between accepting a match's obvious flaws and still enjoying it and claiming a match was perfect and ignoring the obvious flaws?


----------



## Generation-Now

I can see the difference, but I don't see where you get off telling someone that their opinion is wrong, while you're guilty of very similar faults. 

I mean, it wasn't a good match, it did have very obvious, glaring flaws that made it a bad match. You're unwilling to accept that those flaws made it a bad match, the same way he's not able to accept that of Richards/Edwards. Yeah, he's a much more extreme example of it than you are, but you're such a hypocrite for calling him out on it, while being guilty of the exact same thing (lesser extent or not).


----------



## jawbreaker

His opinion was objectively wrong because he said it was perfect. If I'd said it was my opinion that Strong/Edwards was perfect, then I couldn't hide behind the "it's my opinion" defense either.

And no, Strong/Edwards wasn't a bad match. It had lots of the characteristics of bad matches (predictability, overbooking, gimmicky stipulations), but what it did well, it did well enough that it wasn't a bad match overall.

I'm not saying there's no room for subjectivity in match evaluations, rather that you can't say something ridiculous, not back it up, and get offended when people say that what you said was ridiculous.


----------



## Legend

Segunda Caida said:


> Nervosa is correct, I recall that long debate between you two but the one I was on about started when *I think Legend said something along the lines of 'Davey hate is just that time of the month'.* It prompted myself and others to cite what about Davey we didn't particularly like, but between Crabtree and a few others we somehow ended up on people arguing we thought Kevin Nash was a better worker or something crazy like that.


I started a debate? Excellent. This Devil's Advocate thing is nifty.

I don't care if people don't like Davey. Uh ... _I_ don't like Davey. 

What I have a problem with is polemicism. And it's rife here.


----------



## Caponex75

Nervosa said:


> You mean that 10 page argument where you made things up that didn't happen in order to create story for a match where both competitors clearly never bothered? Yeah, I remember that one.


Made up things implied they weren't in the match. I acknowledged your points and proved WHY they were not what you thought they were where you went with the whole "I'm right you're wrong". I very much remember that argument. 


> But that is not the conversation he is talking about. That was entirely different. Far after I stopped posting here.


Which was silly to quit posting somewhere that doesn't share your opinion a 100% of the time. 





> I don't think you really understand what Jaws is saying. He isn't saying people don't have a right to there opinions. all of you have a right to it. We just have a right to
> 
> 1. Ask for more
> 2. Ask for reasonable support
> 3. Call people stupid when condition #2 isn't met. Hopefully using ridicule.


It isn't wrong to ask people to back up their opinion at all. In fact, that is why I have no issue with Bubz. He likes stuff that I don't like and vice versa/we both give reasons. However, Jawbreakers called him a retard for having his own opinion before ANY of those conditions were meant. That is the problem I have with his post. Number 3 rule is unnecessary or ridiculous as it is as it inspires forcing what you think on others as if it was a fact instead of both parties agreeing on a general conscious. Number 3 is actually fucking retarded and something that will get you nowhere in actual life. 



> I recall that long debate between you two but the one I was on about started when I think Legend said something along the lines of 'Davey hate is just that time of the month'. It prompted myself and others to cite what about Davey we didn't particularly like, but between Crabtree and a few others we somehow ended up on people arguing we thought Kevin Nash was a better worker or something crazy like that.


I recall some of that and I still agree that Richards hate was a little time of the month thing especially when he was actually fantastic during the time(He's awful in America now though). It has happened to former champions like Nigel, Morishima, and Black to name some notable guys. It is something that just happens to some ROH Wrestlers over time and I(As well apparently others) have noticed it as well. I still think the Briscoes were the undisputed MVPs of 2007.




> And no, Strong/Edwards wasn't a bad match. It had lots of the characteristics of bad matches (predictability, overbooking, gimmicky stipulations), but what it did well, it did well enough that it wasn't a bad match overall.


Congratulations. You have made a opinion, not a fact. I thought the match was garbage but you can feel free to think that way.


----------



## Nervosa

Caponex75 said:


> Made up things implied they weren't in the match. I acknowledged your points and proved WHY they were not what you thought they were where you went with the whole "I'm right you're wrong". I very much remember that argument.


O yeah, like the Arm work in Taker/Trips that never even played into the story of the match and that no one even said happened except you? what about when you just copied and pasted Kobashi and Misawa, even thought those two actually told stories while Trips and Taker just traded spots? You didn't even bother defending all the abuse you took for that one after a while.

But as for this match, what about that thing you called a workover even though it was like 30 seconds and was broken up by Eddie doing all his normal moves as if nothing had happened? Are you still claiming that that was supposed to be a workover? What about saying it 'didn't matter,' that they actually forgot which limbs they were working over. If that's not an unsupported 'I'm right, you're wrong.' I don't know what is. Or you claiming the 'brother' storyline when I gave you legitimate examples of the proper way to tell that story (Briscoe/Briscoe), illustrating how much your match fell short by comparison? Showing you that the pre-match hype videos and stories were presenting the match as WAY more about Eddie proving himself than your completely made up brother stuff?

See, I actually do use facts and examples. I actually gave a huge list objections that anyone claiming the match was five stars would have to contend with. You dealt with the ones that suited you and ignored the majority of them. That's not acknowledging my points: that's you just saying "I'm right, you're wrong" without defense. 

You, on the other hand, just make things up, (things that NO ONE seems to think exist except you) in order to help your points.



> It isn't wrong to ask people to back up their opinion at all. In fact, that is why I have no issue with Bubz. He likes stuff that I don't like and vice versa/we both give reasons. However, Jawbreakers called him a retard for having his own opinion before ANY of those conditions were meant. That is the problem I have with his post. Number 3 rule is unnecessary or ridiculous as it is as it inspires forcing what you think on others as if it was a fact instead of both parties agreeing on a general conscious. Number 3 is actually fucking retarded and something that will get you nowhere in actual life.


Wait so, by ridiculing an unsupported opinion, we are 'forcing what we think on others?' You act like we are torturing people until they obey the state. This isn't persecution, buddy, its ridicule. On a freaking message board. 

If someone is going to share an opinion around here, they know the risk they are taking, and that risk is this: your opinion, if undefended, can be openly tested through ridicule by anyone who reads it. That's message Board 101. If they are seriously posting on a message board without being prepared for that, then they get what they deserve. It will be the sooner they learn that lesson, for sure. 

You're right, rule 3 'gets you nowhere in life,' unless you want people to actually believe you when you argue your position on something. It will get you nowhere unless you want to learn to hold and defend arguments in way that doesn't make you a laughing stock. Rule 3 is meaningless, as long as you're ok with just giving up every time someone disagrees with you because you're either too unintelligent to defend a contrary opinion or too embarrassed to try. 

O yeah, that will get you nowhere. Look where you ended up: making up stories that aren't there and skipping over objections that don't suit you.


----------



## Certified G

Nervosa, do you still have that huge list of objections you refered to? I thought Richards/Edwards was a 5 star match, so I'd like to see that list, not a big deal if you don't have it anymore though lol.


----------



## Nervosa

The Corre said:


> Nervosa, do you still have that huge list of objections you refered to? I thought Richards/Edwards was a 5 star match, so I'd like to see that list, not a big deal if you don't have it anymore though lol.


No problem at all.

1. Eddie never gets worked over, constantly, without quickly hitting some kind of offense. This diminishes not only Davey’s workover, but Eddie’s comeback, which is less impressive as a result of him never really seeming like he was in peril. In also destroys any semblance of pacing. This problem also leads to…
2. As in all Eddie matches, no workoever means no comeback, which is so very important in the match. Anyone notice that the crowd rarely even stood up during this match, and was not only seated but QUIET near the end? When a match is paced like this, they can’t tell WHICH moment is the big one, so they sit down through it all. That is a problem.
3. Davey forgetting not once but TWICE which limb he is working
4. The guys DO get caught talking to each other a LOT here. Like…..every time they are both lying down. It’s really obvious and really horrible: so bad I don’t think there is a camera angle in the building that could hide it.
5. Richards crawling around before Eddie after TAKING the 2k1 to the apron.
6. Sinclair beginning to count out Richards after the double stomp…and then stopping for no discernable reason.
7. The entire Dragon screw portion discussed above. First, why was Davey able to get control out of nowhere after getting worked with 2 1/2 HUGE moves? Why would Eddie, desperate for a win, beg Davey to Dragon screw him? In that amount of time, a ‘desperate’ Eddie, in control only seconds before, could have hit a counter.
8. Richards regaining control at strange times without reversals: first for the dragon screw in the ropes, and then near the end with the saito suplex, the latter of which ended up being his ‘big comeback,’ but had no actual reason behind it.
9. Eddie’s sloppy rana, DISGRACEFUL cloverleaf, and generally poor sit-down pin
10. Overall pacing is generally bad, as discussed previously by Jaws and Antonio above. I will throw in that I think if they rectify problems 1 and 2, the pacing would end up being just fine, but that is just me. A little workover section and comeback in any Edwards match could have gone a long, long way. 


Also, I should note, that most of these are better explained in detail in my full review on page 112 in this thread.


----------



## TelkEvolon

*MASADA & Ryuji Ito vs Yuko Miyamoto & Isami Kodaka - BJW 23.10.2011*

This was one hell of a deathmatch, where they pulled out all the stops, then put gimmicks on the stops and pulled them out also.

In two corners of the ring there are boxes of wacky weapons ranging from a thumbtack fry pan, to razor slippers, to a nail/spiked hair brush, not to mention some of the other things that I am still puzzled about. Then there are the "corner men" handing out the tacks, kenzans and some other horrible natural murder balls.

All this is shared with some of the wildest deathmatch guys out there, and they don't hold back.

For about 25 minutes these guys (and their various weapons of destruction) go to war in a bloody, drama filled battle that has you physically reacting as you watch. Especially when MASADA gets the skewers out.

Tons of great scenes, super violent, action packed & novelty filled.

*****1/2*


----------



## Certified G

TelkEvolon said:


> *MASADA & Ryuji Ito vs Yuko Miyamoto & Isami Kodaka - BJW 23.10.2011*
> 
> This was one hell of a deathmatch, where they pulled out all the stops, then put gimmicks on the stops and pulled them out also.
> 
> In two corners of the ring there are boxes of wacky weapons ranging from a thumbtack fry pan, to razor slippers, to a nail/spiked hair brush, not to mention some of the other things that I am still puzzled about. Then there are the "corner men" handing out the tacks, kenzans and some other horrible natural murder balls.
> 
> All this is shared with some of the wildest deathmatch guys out there, and they don't hold back.
> 
> For about 25 minutes these guys (and their various weapons of destruction) go to war in a bloody, drama filled battle that has you physically reacting as you watch. Especially when MASADA gets the skewers out.
> 
> Tons of great scenes, super violent, action packed & novelty filled.
> 
> *****1/2*


Sounds like an awesome match. Definitely gonna watch that sometime today or tomorrow, thanks for the YT link.
I'm not really familair with Kodaka, but I'm a big fan of MASADA, Ito and Miyamoto. I recently got CZW's Down With The Sickness 2011, it has the no rope barbed wire match between Ito and MASADA for the BJW Deathmatch/CZW UVU championships. So it'll be fun to see these 2 team up instead of fight each other.


----------



## TelkEvolon

The Corre said:


> Sounds like an awesome match. Definitely gonna watch that sometime today or tomorrow, thanks for the YT link.
> I'm not really familair with Kodaka, but I'm a big fan of MASADA, Ito and Miyamoto. I recently got CZW's Down With The Sickness 2011, it has the no rope barbed wire match between Ito and MASADA for the BJW Deathmatch/CZW UVU championships. So it'll be fun to see these 2 team up instead of fight each other.


Kodaka is probably one of my fabvorite to watch, he kinda reminds me of El Generico (of all people), real skinny, real fast and can take a hell of a beating and come back on fire.


----------



## Certified G

Just watched Super Dragon/Kevin Steen vs Young Bucks from PWG Fear. Awesome match, just the way I like it. Stiff, pretty fast paced, great moves. Definitely worth ****/ ****1/2 imo.


----------



## Nervosa

The Corre said:


> Just watched Super Dragon/Kevin Steen vs Young Bucks from PWG Fear. Awesome match, just the way I like it. Stiff, pretty fast paced, great moves. Definitely worth ****/ ****1/2 imo.


How's Super Dragon working these days? I haven't ever really been a fan of his even when he was 100% healthy, and he has been so out of shape the past 5 years or so that I figured he would be awful when he came back. All I have heard is good things though.


----------



## Bubz

Nervosa said:


> How's Super Dragon working these days? I haven't ever really been a fan of his even when he was 100% healthy, and he has been so out of shape the past 5 years or so that I figured he would be awful when he came back. All I have heard is good things though.


In that match against The Bucks he was good I guess for what it was, but he hasn't changed at all though really, he can still stiff the hell out of people and do all his usual stuff. I wasn't the biggest fan of that match, it was enjoyable but it was just a lot of stiffness and some sick spots.

From the latest PWG preview it looks like he does a lot more in the KRR3 main event. He's not in great shape either but not as bad as he was a year ago or whatever it was he last appeared. If you didn't like him before my guess is you won't like him now either lol.


----------



## jawbreaker

It's been almost four years since the last time Super Dragon wrestled. Like, DDT4 08 or something?

His calling card is still the same, he's a BADASS~ who works STIFF~. He was always capable of working interesting stuff around that (Samoa Joe matches) but too often fell back on just doing his thing. Haven't seen enough to see if he's actually improved, he seems to be sticking to tags with Steen for now.


----------



## Ali Dia

Any additional opinions on the 80 minute match, I've seen some bizarrely high ratings


----------



## dk4life

Just finished watching rovolt from Dragon Gate USA, 

YAMATO vs BxB Hulk - No Ropes, NO DQ match - Revolt 2011

I loved how BxB Hulk's offence is all dirty heel tactics and shots (mostly to the balls). Felt abit flat towards the end, like it could have gone 5 more minutes, but when I checked, it was clocked around 20 minutes. YAMATO looked alot different to when I last saw him, I have only seen him a couple times since he lost the hair, awesome match, good story and didn't expect YAMATO to be the one that went off the rope post.

My Snowflakes - ****


----------



## Bubz

*Suwama vs Sanada - AJPW 31/7/11*
I watched this based on Seabs recommendation because I liked their match in 2012 a lot, and it definitely delivered. Great limb workover by Suwama and great selling and comeback by Sanada. I'm becoming a huge Suwama fan the more I see and Sanada is really impressive too. That spot he does were he jumps over the top rope to the outside and hits a dropkick is nuts. I loved how Sanada used his other arm to strike and sold his arm all the way until the finishing stretch where I think he could have sold it a little better but he still occasionally would hold on to it and try and get some life back in to it. So yeah this was great and would easily make my MOTY list for 2011. *****1/4*


----------



## seabs

Bubz said:


> *Suwama vs Sanada - AJPW 31/7/11*
> I watched this based on Seabs recommendation because I liked their match in 2012 a lot, and it definitely delivered. Great limb workover by Suwama and great selling and comeback by Sanada. I'm becoming a huge Suwama fan the more I see and Sanada is really impressive too. That spot he does were he jumps over the top rope to the outside and hits a dropkick is nuts. I loved how Sanada used his other arm to strike and sold his arm all the way until the finishing stretch where I think he could have sold it a little better but he still occasionally would hold on to it and try and get some life back in to it. So yeah this was great and would easily make my MOTY list for 2011. *****1/4*


----------



## Bubz

:lmao I'm guessing not many people have seen it?


----------



## McQueen

CHUBBY PORKER WOOOOOOOOOOOING IN EXUBERATION!


----------

