# MJF is not a good heel.



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

You’re right. That is an unpopular opinion.


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## Death Rider (May 18, 2011)

What do you mean? MJF is the salt of the earth?

Nah I rather have someone who is a heel actually being a detestable twat. It is why I loved Havoc's run as Progress champion as he was a fucking psychopath.


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## rbl85 (Nov 21, 2017)

"He's playing a character" like 100% of the wrestlers XD


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## Cataclysm (Sep 8, 2019)

I think MJF's heel shtick feels pretty similar to what miz did long ago. I don't really care for his antics much. His character in general feels like he tries a bit too hard.


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## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

MJF is hands-down the best part of AEW. He is their *only* heel.


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## ObsoleteMule (Sep 4, 2016)

MarkOfAllMarks said:


> This is a very unpopular opinion but hear me out for a second. He is not believable as a real person. He's almost too mean, I can't buy him as a real person. He feels like he is playing a character if you get what I'm saying. Nobody acts like that. There is no subtly to it. I just don't believe him at all when he talks. Part of being a good heel is being able to make people believe that you mean what you are saying. He's acting and I see right through it. I can't get into it. Where as great heels should be an extension of themselves it feels like they are real.


Ehhh i guess if believability is a major thing to you, then i can see why you think that. In the realm of wrestling (which is far from believable) the guy has the heel act down perfectly. 

MJF isnt without his faults tho. If you watch MLW you’ll see that his shtick is a little repetitive, his ring work is a little below average and hes on the smaller side which takes away from his image a bit. I believe he’s a future world champ but he’s not the type of champ who can stand on his own. Hes going to need cronies


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## Chan Hung (Dec 28, 2011)

Are u kidding OP? His look alone is a heel. Smirk, walk, talk...hes a jerk and its good to hate on him lol


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## Ger (Jul 20, 2018)

So we already started to talk the good stuff of AEW down.


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## Black Metal (Apr 30, 2018)

Guess you wouldn't like rewatching 80's and early 90's heel work then.


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## MarkOfAllMarks (Apr 7, 2018)

Reminds me too much of Miz not in a good way. I guess I see it a little differently. I'm more into the badass tough guy heel. Not much into this type of work. I don't believe it.


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## Dr. Middy (Jan 21, 2015)

I think the only thing I can agree with you on is that your opinion is indeed unpopular. 

Fans are booing him loudly in every event so far, he speaks very well and delivers his promos tremendously, and he's great at the arrogant prick role with how he is insulting them. Plus he'll have more ammo and depth once TV actually starts. 

So just because you don't like him, doesn't make him not a good heel.


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## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

MarkOfAllMarks said:


> Reminds me too much of Miz not in a good way. I guess I see it a little differently. I'm more into the badass tough guy heel. Not much into this type of work. I don't believe it.


You’re into the heel you want to cheer

Yep, then MJF won’t do it for you - he’s just a twat who wants marks and smarks to boo him


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## Reggie Dunlop (Nov 2, 2015)

He’s the best kind of heel. He makes you love to hate him, but he does it in a way that you can’t stop watching. Too many heels today - and in the past, for that matter - have/had go-away heat. That’s the cheap way out. Some guys made it work, but most make you want to change the channel. That’s not good heat, and that’s not MJF. 

He’s most likely building toward a major turn on Cody, which is immediately going to make his character one of the most detestable in the business. And fans are going to eat it up, because he’s got the perfect mix that a watchable heel should have. Instead of changing the channel, they’re going to be itching for anybody to come out and wipe that smirk off his face. And that’s also going to be the perfect tool for building up new stars.


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## Geeee (Aug 9, 2010)

IMO if you can get smarks to boo you...and you're not supposed to be a babyface, then you're doing a good job as a heel.

You are not supposed to believe MJF. He is a duplicitous snake. He is coming off as fake on purpose and you are not supposed to like him.


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## Chan Hung (Dec 28, 2011)

MJF does the classic heel stuff like grab tights to win etc...cheats a lot. But he does it the right way and it's missed a lot in today's wrestling


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## Tilon (Jun 27, 2019)

Has OP watched MJF's interview with Chris van Vliet?

Master class in Heel work.


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## TD Stinger (May 9, 2012)

Go watch any interview with the guy in the last few months. The guy 100% commits to his character in and out of the ring. He is always an asshole, he never shows off a "human" side to himself. He never shows a likable side of himself.

I'm at the point with all these interviews I've seen him in that I don't know if in real life he's the nicest guy in the world or if he is that big of an asshole. That's the mark of a great heel.

So I personally don't believe he comes across as phony.


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## MontyCora (Aug 31, 2016)

If you don't believe that people as vile and cartoonishly dickish as MJF exist, you haven't been around long enough.


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## MonkasaurusRex (Jul 3, 2016)

I can understand the OP's sentiment about MJF's heel work especially if you find it too far OTT. I think that's a fair criticism. If you are a fan that has come along after the NWO you are going to find this kind of heel grating and in the wrong way much like a sizeable portion of people would say that Miz wasn't a good heel. I think MJF is doing a good job thus far but he is buoyed by the fact outside of him AEW has what appears to be zero heels to speak of.


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## IronMan8 (Dec 25, 2015)

Does the Undertaker feel like a “real person”?

Geez...

It’s wrestling - it’s not real dudes


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## Mr.Monkey (Jul 12, 2014)

He just seems like AEW's version of Miz IMO


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## RBrooks (Oct 18, 2013)

I agree that nobody acts like that. But then again, who in the hell acts like wrestlers act? Wrestling is silly acting, over the top goofy shit most of the times. In most cases, nobody ever behaves like wrestlers in real life (unless you're some obsessed freak or a kid). MJF pulls off a classic heel shtick to a tee. You can tell he understands the business and knows what he's doing.


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## MonkasaurusRex (Jul 3, 2016)

IronMan8 said:


> Does the Undertaker feel like a “real person”?
> 
> Geez...
> 
> It’s wrestling - it’s not real dudes


While this is true, AEW has repeatedly said that they are interested in presenting a more sports-based product and that can potentially limit the fanbase's readiness to accept a more sports entertainment style character like MJF. The more "realistic" the presentation the less room for outlandish "characters" you are going to have.


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## Viidie (Mar 4, 2019)

I disagree. I think he is better then most heels in the business at the moment. Although the standard may not be as high as its been in the past.


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## Ghost Lantern (Apr 11, 2012)

MarkOfAllMarks said:


> This is a very unpopular opinion but hear me out for a second. He is not believable as a real person. He's almost too mean, I can't buy him as a real person. He feels like he is playing a character if you get what I'm saying. Nobody acts like that. There is no subtly to it. I just don't believe him at all when he talks. Part of being a good heel is being able to make people believe that you mean what you are saying. He's acting and I see right through it. I can't get into it. Where as great heels should be an extension of themselves it feels like they are real.


every Randy Orton heel run.


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## CHAMPIONSHIPS (Dec 14, 2016)

OP has already admitted that he's into "cool heels" who are "bad ass". He's being expertly worked by MJFs detestable chickenshit antics


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## Raye (Jul 23, 2018)

MonkasaurusRex said:


> While this is true, AEW has repeatedly said that they are interested in presenting a more sports-based product and that can potentially limit the fanbase's readiness to accept a more sports entertainment style character like MJF. The more "realistic" the presentation the less room for outlandish "characters" you are going to have.


People are literally drawn to characters in real life sports, guys with big personalities. Why do you think Conor was as big of a draw for the UFC as he was? Why do you think guys like Curry, Davis, Harden, etc have things that they're known for that add to their personality and make them popular? Also, imagine saying they have less room for outlandish "characters" when Luchasaurus is in their top 3 most over acts at the moment and they have guys like Orange Cassidy signed.

Dude, just... unkout


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## IronMan8 (Dec 25, 2015)

MonkasaurusRex said:


> IronMan8 said:
> 
> 
> > Does the Undertaker feel like a “real person”?
> ...


Oh God... Tony Kahn is simply focusing more on working the adults who are his target audience, that’s all.

It’s equally as fake as WWE.

MJF is the best character on this new TV show IMO, yet people are genuinely upset because he’s not portraying a regular person sitting in the crowd.

It’s really, really funny.


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## Ninja Hedgehog (Mar 22, 2018)

MarkOfAllMarks said:


> This is a very unpopular opinion but hear me out for a second. *He is not believable as a real person. He's almost too mean, I can't buy him as a real person. He feels like he is playing a character if you get what I'm saying. Nobody acts like that. There is no subtly to it.* I just don't believe him at all when he talks. Part of being a good heel is being able to make people believe that you mean what you are saying. He's acting and I see right through it. I can't get into it. Where as great heels should be an extension of themselves it feels like they are real.


Wrestling needs far more of that if you ask me. Far too many generic people these days.

More characters should be over-the-top, ridiculous, and at times, unbelievable.


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## Hangman (Feb 3, 2017)

You're going against the WF hivemind OP.

This thread won't end well.


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## Soul Rex (Nov 26, 2017)

Hangman said:


> You're going against the WF hivemind OP.
> 
> This thread won't end well.


More like he's going against wrestling logic.

If you ever were to apply op's logic, you were going to wipe 99% of al wrestling characters in history.


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## Ninja Hedgehog (Mar 22, 2018)

Hangman said:


> You're going against the *WF hivemind OP*.
> 
> This thread won't end well.


Hivemind?? You're a grown man. Jesus Christ.........


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## Reggie Dunlop (Nov 2, 2015)

MonkasaurusRex said:


> While this is true, AEW has repeatedly said that they are interested in presenting a more sports-based product and that can potentially limit the fanbase's readiness to accept a more sports entertainment style character like MJF. The more "realistic" the presentation the less room for outlandish "characters" you are going to have.


FFS, is this going to be the fallback argument every time AEW does something somebody doesn’t like? It’s still fucking wrestling. Since day one wrestling has been about over-the-top characters. Just stop this crap.


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## TripleG (Dec 8, 2004)

Wait until he turns on Cody, then we will see the true asshole come out.


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## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

OP is just wrong. Some statements and opinions are just wrong. This is one of them.


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## Buster Baxter (Mar 30, 2015)

I don't agree with you, he reminds me of The Miz for some reason. I do think that some of the fanboyism for him has gone over the top at times. You had people on here claiming he's a better promo than Punk and that he's the best since The Rock on the mic. Dude has a lot of hype right now off the DON segment so people are pretty much creaming their pants at anything that comes out of his mouth.


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## RKing85 (Mar 22, 2010)

There is nothing OP can ever do to make me forgive him for him stating this opinion.


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## yeahbaby! (Jan 27, 2014)

MonkasaurusRex said:


> *While this is true, AEW has repeatedly said that they are interested in presenting a more sports-based product and* that can potentially limit the fanbase's readiness to accept a more sports entertainment style character like MJF. The more "realistic" the presentation the less room for outlandish "characters" you are going to have.


Well they've completely failed at that so far IMO.

Having a guy with one leg, tiny short weaklings that look like kids, a tag team called Boy and His Dinosaur etc is not in any way presenting a more sports based product.


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## MarkOfAllMarks (Apr 7, 2018)

When people on this forum start calling him a GOAT and better then Eddie Guerrero I feel like I am living in an alternate reality.


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## V-Trigger (Jul 6, 2016)

yeahbaby! said:


> Well they've completely failed at that so far IMO.
> 
> Having a guy with no legs, tiny short weaklings that look like kids, a tag team called Boy and His Dinosaur etc is not in any way presenting a more sports based product.


Guy with no legs = One spot in the battle royale and hasn't appeared since the first show

Little guys = Flyweight and bantamweight divisions exist in combat sports.

Jungle Boy and Luchasaurus work in the ring as wrestlers, not like some paranormal shit like the Undertaker or The Fiend.


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## V-Trigger (Jul 6, 2016)

Check this out folks, great promo by MJF explaining his relationship with Cody.
https://streamable.com/i92m7


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## KennyOmegaa (Sep 25, 2019)

Ninja Hedgehog said:


> Hivemind?? You're a grown man. Jesus Christ.........




Lol this gif made my night, thanks.


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## Lorromire (Jun 17, 2014)

I'm not a fan of him either. 
He plays a good heel in the ring, which is great. He's not a good heel on the mic. Cheap heat 24/7 =/= good heel.


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## TwistedLogic (Feb 17, 2013)

Lorromire said:


> I'm not a fan of him either.
> He plays a good heel in the ring, which is great. He's not a good heel on the mic. Cheap heat 24/7 =/= good heel.


He's a brilliant heel. Look at the clip V-Trigger shared above (glad my clips of his amazing media scrum are going around).

And if you have time, check out the full scrum:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjRi5IZo2WU

He's amazing on the mic. I thought he was a bit overrated too until I saw that interview. Now I'm completely a believer. He's not just a great promo, he's a great storyteller. I honestly think he has the potential to be the next Paul Heyman.


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## Lorromire (Jun 17, 2014)

MarkOfAllMarks said:


> When people on this forum start calling him a GOAT and better then Eddie Guerrero I feel like I am living in an alternate reality.


Not that I think MJF's better, but Eddie wasn't that good on the mic tbf.


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## Lorromire (Jun 17, 2014)

TwistedLogic said:


> He's a brilliant heel. Look at the clip V-Trigger shared above (glad my clips of his amazing media scrum are going around).
> 
> And if you have time, check out the full scrum:
> 
> ...


Don't get me wrong, the dude is a good talker. Most of that promo was great and it showed.

Him going "you with the stupid face hurhurhur" wasn't great, and that's what 95% of his TV/PPV promos for AEW have been.

It's just an issue when said 95% is cheap heat, that throws me off and makes me think that's all he has to offer. I know he's good at talking compared to others, but he's not a good heel if that's his go-to 95% of the time.


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## candice-wrestling (Jul 21, 2017)

I actually enjoy the guy. I love to hate him.


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## JustAName (Sep 17, 2012)

Ninja Hedgehog said:


> Hivemind?? You're a grown man. Jesus Christ.........


There is a difference in being a grown man in age or height and being a grown man mentally.


On actual topic though, listen to his podcast with Steve Austin, what an absolute beautiful story that was told throughout that interview and the ending is just perfection!

Also quick edit: I agree with OP on one thing, he really isn't a good heel, he is a GREAT heel


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## SayWhatAgain! (Jul 25, 2016)

"He feels like he's playing a character"

Because Hulk Hogan & The Undertaker felt like real guys you'd run into in Walmart? 

"He's too mean"

Yeah calling people nerds & virgins is too mean & unrealistic, but smashing someone's head through a glass table isn't mean at all & happens in everyday life...


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## Kratosx23 (Nov 1, 2004)

Lorromire said:


> I'm not a fan of him either.
> He plays a good heel in the ring, which is great. He's not a good heel on the mic. Cheap heat 24/7 =/= good heel.


There is no such thing as cheap heat. It's a myth. Stop it. 

The purpose of a heel is to get heat, and the way to get heat is to be unlikable. Being unlikable includes things like: insulting the audience, insulting other wrestlers, having an over-inflated ego, cheating, etc. Those tactics are not "cheap". Those tactics are tools in your toolbox. If you don't behave in an unlikable manner, you're not a heel, you're a wrestler and that's it.

The idea that it's "cheap" to be aggressively unlikable completely undercuts the idea of being a heel in the first place. The entire goal is to anger people to coerce them into buying tickets to see the hero beat you up. There is no such thing as a heel tactic that isn't cheap, if cheap heat exists, because ALL heel tactics are designed to push your buttons. Every single one. And MJF is doing what pretty much every heel back in the day USED to do, he's laying it on thick, and that's to his CREDIT. MJF has clearly studied old school WWF, where you'd have Jerry The King Lawler say the most ungodly, vile insults and lies about Stu and Helen Hart because he hated Bret and loved Owen, who was a piece of shit who turned his back on his family. You had guys like Bobby Heenan insulting everybody under the sun, Rick Rude calling the audience fat, etc. Was that all cheap? No, of course not, those are the things at your disposal to make the audience express anger, disgust, sadness, whatever the negative emotion you're trying to elicit to service your character, and the character of the babyface you're feuding with. This is why television is so much better than today's wrestling at making heels, because in normal storytelling, you use the supposed "cheap heat" tropes all the time, that are really just things heels are supposed to do to be heels. King Joffrey is an old school wrestling heel, a cartoonishly evil, amped up to 11, evil heel, and nobody said it was "cheap". Nowadays all being a heel is, is you'll have two guys in the ring, and the way to identify the babyface and the heel is one guy will be smiling and one guy will put on a mean face and be slightly more aggressive and that's it. MJF is doing what needs to be done for the good of the wrestling business. If wrestling ever becomes popular again on a mainstream level, it will be because of people like him becoming more and more legion in this industry.

I'll tell you what real cheap heat is. Being a shitty performer who people don't respect. That is cheap heat. That is you getting booed in a much more visceral, hostile manner that tells the promoter that your push has flopped. Cheap heat is what WWE would do when they would want something to get over, like Shinsuke Nakamura's Royal Rumble win, so they would have the Rumble come down to Nakamura and Roman Reigns to ENSURE that Nakamura gets cheered because Roman Reigns didn't win the Rumble. THAT is cheap heat. THAT is a cheap emotional response. That is not MJF. MJF is a heel and he's a hell of an effective one at that, and I know this because I used to watch The Miz do essentially the same act, and Miz had a WWE title reign with virtually no heat. MJF is already doing it better and getting FAR more heat at only 23 years old.


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## michael_3165 (Apr 16, 2016)

Depends what you are looking for. I personally think he is bloody brilliant - even my wife who isn't into wrestling found him infuriating! What do you want from wrestling? 'Real' characters or over the top ones? For me I don't want real life people on a wrestling show, the world is full of boring fucks without that on a weekly wrestling program. I want OTT characters, action and surprises. By the OPs logic Roddy Piper, Bobby Heenan, Rick Rude, Rick Flair etc would have been 'bad' heels. They were all incredibly OTT and dislikable. 

I have actually met one or two people who are actually as obnoxious as MJF. Arrogant, talk over you, have no interest in anyone else and always irritable. Wrestling should be (as Austin has said) 'you turned up to 100'.


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## White Glove Test (Jun 19, 2007)

The Wood said:


> You’re right. That is an unpopular opinion.


Lol, took the words right out of my mouth.
Bottom line is this dude plays the smug heel better than any of the guys that wwe tried to throw into that role for years. He has a great look and is a great promo. I really hope he becomes AEW champion some day.


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## lesenfanteribles (Nov 23, 2004)

People complaining this early on...:lmao :lmao :lmao


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## White Glove Test (Jun 19, 2007)

lesenfanteribles said:


> People complaining this early on...:lmao :lmao :lmao


to be fair, he has been playing this role over the last few years in the indies. I discovered him in MLW and he was excellent over there.


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## lesenfanteribles (Nov 23, 2004)

White Glove Test said:


> to be fair, he has been playing this role over the last few years in the indies. I discovered him in MLW and he was excellent over there.


Well, I haven't seen MLW before until only recently and I think he's got a good thing going over there. 

As far as AEW goes, apart from their first episode on TNT and a few PPV's before, it's still early for me and I'm pretty sure that they are all aware of the growing pains that the company is going through but they'll be growing together which is a good thing. Whether he's a good heel or not, that would depend on his present and future performances.


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## Cataclysm (Sep 8, 2019)

MJF insults my IQ. His heel work is so blatantly obvious and forced. He is cutting generic heel promos for cheap heat. Cheap heat does exist. It's where you insult the intelligence of the watching audience by saying ridiculous things to get a reaction out of people. Any heel that has no semblance of subtlety or better yet only has one promo (insults fans for being nerds) has little to no creativity. I won't deny his charisma which is why so many people buy into this god awful heel work. In the modern day characters should be more dynamic.


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## Whoanma (Apr 5, 2016)

MarkOfAllMarks said:


> When people on this forum start calling him a GOAT and *better then Eddie Guerrero* I feel like I am living in an alternate reality.


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## Jupiter Jack Daniels (Jul 18, 2011)

I don't know, I think it's a bit too early to come to that conclusion.


I feel that perception is skewered by the fact that, thus far in his AEW presentation, he's not really involved in anything specific. There's no actual target for him to get heat from. Therefore, he's had to rely on the generalized insults to do, which is working.


I think when they finally pull the trigger on his betrayal of Cody, that's when he'll really shine because he'll have something specific to get heat from and it comes at the expense of a guy who's managed to become great at being a babyface driven by emotion.


In other words, what you're not believing in MJF _now_, I suspect will come out when it's time for him to actually tell a story, especially one of this nature.


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## What A Maneuver (Jun 16, 2013)

Cataclysm said:


> MJF insults my IQ. His heel work is so blatantly obvious and forced. He is cutting generic heel promos for cheap heat. Cheap heat does exist. It's where you insult the intelligence of the watching audience by saying ridiculous things to get a reaction out of people. Any heel that has no semblance of subtlety or better yet only has one promo (insults fans for being nerds) has little to no creativity. I won't deny his charisma which is why so many people buy into this god awful heel work. In the modern day characters should be more dynamic.


This forum has been boasting about him for months as the next big thing, and I've been patient and open minded, but his promos are extremely repetitious. I also hate the idea that if you don't get him that "you don't understand heels" or we're being worked brotha. Like...no, I just find the content of his promos lame and recycled. My brother and I watched Dynamite and made jokes about what his promo would be like, and when he came out he said literally everything we predicted. It's hard to be shocked and outraged by a promo when I heard it the week before. 

Maybe once he gets an actual storyline his content will improve. I hope so, because this company needs good talkers.


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## Reggie Dunlop (Nov 2, 2015)

MJF strikes that perfect balance between loathsome behavior and still watchable. He’s the guy who you want to see somebody come slap the taste out of his mouth, but you still want to see him. I won’t say it’s rare, but it’s something only certain good heels possess. That’s real heel heat, unlike the channel-changing kind that many others exude. This guy is anything but a _bad_ heel.


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## DOTL (Jan 3, 2012)

Stone Cold wasn't realistic either. No one is that intense all the time. I don't think realism is the issue. It's conviction I think you're concerned with.


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## Lorromire (Jun 17, 2014)

Kratosx23 said:


> There is no such thing as cheap heat. It's a myth. Stop it.


I stopped reading here. You can live in denial all you want, but there are obviously cheap heat and cheap pops when it comes to promo work.


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## Kratosx23 (Nov 1, 2004)

Lorromire said:


> I stopped reading here. You can live in denial all you want, but there are obviously cheap heat and cheap pops when it comes to promo work.


Well, that's too bad, because if you had read further, you'd have been educated on the subject.


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## CRCC (Sep 25, 2017)

You're right, he isn't good, he's great.


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