# Yup, Russo buries Raw - "Balor beating both Rusev/Roman is the nail in the coffin, wrestling is dead"



## Chris Herrichico (Feb 27, 2015)

Hahaha...awesome!

btw: Awesome RAW


----------



## Vox Machina (May 22, 2014)

Russo sounds like he posts on here.

But yeah. Bye, Vince. You won't be missed.


----------



## Iapetus (Jun 5, 2015)

Is this for real? Lol Russo about to get major heat from the IWC.:lol

Not that I don't agree with him on some of this stuff, but seriously, casuals started leaving when smarks started ruining the show in response to WWE ruining it for smarks. No one likes their kids getting cussed out for cheering their favorite wrestlers. Sorry Russo.


----------



## zkorejo (Jul 2, 2010)

Good. Now please boycott wrestling and shut the fuck up.


----------



## AoEC_ (Jul 17, 2016)

I can understand Russo's sentiments. As someone who, like many other WWE consumers was seeing Finn Balor perform for the first time, I definitely would have liked a bit more build up to him beating the US champion and also a 2 time WM main eventer who happens to be a former multi time champion, performers who have been an integral part of the main roster for years now. The whole thing looked pretty manufactured to me with little to no sense of protecting the kayfabe prowess of the competitors.

What also concerns me is the weakening of the face-heel dynamic in the main event scene. Balor-Rollins may very well give the match of the millennium at SS, but what about the 3 week built up preceding it? Who will be the one garnering heat from the crowd in this build up? How odd would it look when the entire build up gets invalidated because there's no face-heel dynamic that can be built. Rollins, who should be the heel in this program would most probably get unequivocally cheered and wouldn't even garner a modicum of heat, Balor.. just gets 3 weeks to cement his character on the main roster before competing in a match of historic proportions. The whole scenario just looks like the classic case of putting the cart before the horse to me.


----------



## KC Armstrong (Jun 19, 2013)

I enjoyed RAW, so why should I care about Russo or Meltzer burying the show? I have zero fucks to give about these guys and their opinions.


----------



## Peerless (Aug 28, 2014)

You'll hate on his opinion now, but when Balor's super push lasts longer than a few months, most of you will begin to complain.


----------



## Jack the Ripper (Apr 8, 2016)

I agree with Russo on some of the stuff h says sometimes, 

But man EVERY single week he finds something to bitch about!!!! EVERY WEEK!! No matter what hapens he will bitch and moan, if Finn lost to Rusev and Roman he would've said that they burried Fin blah blah blah because that's what Vince Russo does he bitches!!! that's his gimmick! 

He's far worse than the IWC at this point! Just F off already mate...


----------



## KC Armstrong (Jun 19, 2013)

> Balor beat Reigns in an unbelievable match that would have never happened if the fight were a shoot.


... and wrestling is dead because of this totally new development. CM Punk had a competitive match with Brock Lesnar 3 years ago, Rey Mysterio was a World Champion, but wrestling has now died because Finn Balor beat Roman Reigns. Bro, sure bro, you're totally right, bro.




> When Finn Balor was booked to defeat the likes of Rusev and Roman Reigns in the same night -- on his first night -- this was the nail in the coffin for me. I never believed that I would ever see a powerhouse like the WWE cater to the smallest audience, with the loudest voice -- the IWC. Tonight . . . they won the war. It is over and done with. The "casuals" can now officially give up any and all hope.


Shit. Now all those casual fans Roman brought to the product in the last couple of years will stop watching. How could they do this?


----------



## Master Bate (Sep 1, 2015)

What real life fighting experience does Roman have over Finn that says he would beat him in an actual fight?

For all we know Finn would rip him to shreds lol


----------



## JTB33b (Jun 26, 2007)

How does Russo know Roman would beat Finn in a shoot fight? Because he is bigger? Bigger doesn't mean tougher. This is not the UFC where weight classes matter because they are all pro-fighters. For all we know, Roman could fight like shit.


----------



## Mox Girl (Sep 29, 2014)

Why is he acting like only the IWC like Finn? From what I've seen, he's pretty popular with all sorts of people.


----------



## Nightrow (Sep 24, 2014)

Hate to break it to you, Russo...wrestling died a long time ago, bro.


----------



## Eva MaRIHyse (Jun 20, 2014)

I agree 100% I mean c'mon WWE have guys like Owens and Rusev ready to step up into the Main Event. But nope instead HHH has got to megapush his worst NXT darling. Balor is awful, he's beyond boring. Whys he in a World Title program immediately while Owens is losing to dweebs like Zayn and Rusevs eating pins from dorks like Balor. Good wrestling is dead, now its the era of charisma vaccums indy dweebs.


----------



## Florat (Feb 25, 2016)

1) If people tells to Russo to shut up, I would've liked you to do the same thing while Roman Reigns was pushed...

2) Russo doesn't have anything against Finn Balor. He have something with a rookie beating the U.S Champ and the top face in the same night. If they did some build-up for Balor, he would've be fine with it. The problem is that yoy are killing two potentials great feuds and storylines just to push Balor to the moon


----------



## Mad Max (Jan 26, 2016)




----------



## Nightrow (Sep 24, 2014)

JTB33b said:


> How does Russo know Roman would beat Finn in a shoot fight? Because he is bigger? Bigger doesn't mean tougher. This is not the UFC where weight classes matter because they are all pro-fighters. For all we know, Roman could fight like shit.


Samoans have a reputation for being tough in wrestling.


----------



## marshal99 (Jan 6, 2016)

The guy is just bitter that he's pretty much irelevant and no longer writing wrestling shows anymore. Even TNA doesn't hire him anymore.


----------



## Born of Osiris (Oct 29, 2013)

Wrestling died years ago when a certain Chicago native left the business. :hogan

Also :lmao at caring about realism in wrestling. How low can you go?


----------



## Chrome (Jan 11, 2012)

I read that whole thing in his voice. :russo


----------



## Peerless (Aug 28, 2014)

I know it's Russo and all, but he makes a great point.

Balor fucking sucks. He's going to get exposed big time in the next month. The guy is boring and lacks any personality or gimmick. Don't give me the demon nonsense. If he was actually creative about it and had good acting, they could have done a split character type of gimmick, but instead, they refer it to as war paint because Balor isn't actually capable of pulling off an actual gimmick, LMFAO.

He's the true definition of a vanilla midget. And it's not like he's such an amazing worker that it can be overlooked. He had NO memorable matches in NXT. He was working with the best guys of this generation, and he couldn't pull off a memorable match.

The worst thing about him beating Reigns and co. was that the guy wasn't believable in doing so. Nothing about him stood out which could have made the win plausible. It was essentially a superman victory, by a guy who doesn't look like a superman. For example, Bryan and Ambrose aren't the most physically imposing guys, but Bryan was billed as one of the GOAT wrestlers so you could believe he could pull of a win against larger opponents. Ambrose is billed as someone crazy, so you can believe him doing something unpredictable to pull off the win. Even if it didn't always translate in the ring, the commentary would pound it in your head. 

Balor had nothing. Some of the blame should go to the commentary team, who didn't mention why Balor would be able to beat Reigns, but most of it should go to the people down at NXT who don't care about character or gimmicks, but just how good you would look like on a billboard.

He's the 5'10 Roman Reigns, with worse mic skills, and less memorable big matches, despite him being a much better wrestler. What's worse is that he's just another guy "who will be happy to be here!"

The geek era, indeed.


----------



## Ecoces (Jun 28, 2011)

But Russo this ISN'T a SHOOT nor is it an actual fight its "sports entertainment" and even "wrestling". In WWE/F Wrestling has always been about entertainment more so than being real this is why a guy can take a Sledgehammer shot to the skull and still walk or get punched 20-30 times directly into the face and kick out before a 3 count.

i mean isn't this the guy that booked David Arquette to be the champion of WCW?


----------



## Mastodonic (Oct 11, 2015)

Russo made Jeff Jarrett a top guy. I don't think he should comment on mediocre talent getting pushed.


----------



## Kostic (May 5, 2015)

So according to Russo, only big men should ever get pushed because they would always win in a real fight.

Well guess what, motherfucker, it ain't a real fight. That's the whole fucking point.

And Russo is a guy known for his ridiculously awful booking, so shut the fuck up, man. You put the belt on David Arquette.


----------



## Ecoces (Jun 28, 2011)

Peerless said:


> The guy is boring and lacks any personality or gimmick.


so basically Roman Reigns except Roman Reigns has muscles amirite? is that you Vince? at least Balor can perform unlike Reigns.


----------



## Old School Icons (Jun 7, 2012)

Can someone tell Vince Russo that WWE are never eva eva going to rehire him bro?


----------



## Peerless (Aug 28, 2014)

Ecoces said:


> so basically Roman Reigns except Roman Reigns has muscles amirite? is that you Vince? at least Balor can perform unlike Reigns.


I actually said he was a shorter Reigns. They both suck, and Balor will be turned on, in a few months because super pushes never end well, in this day and age.


----------



## FriedTofu (Sep 29, 2014)




----------



## J-B (Oct 26, 2015)

Stop living in the stone ages, Vince. If he's just going to bitch about the lack of realism in WWE then I question why he even bothered to start watching pro wrestling in the first place when you've got guys irish whipping one another and chops being more brutal than a punch.


----------



## KC Armstrong (Jun 19, 2013)

> I know it's Russo and all, but he makes a great point.
> 
> Balor fucking sucks.



His point was not that wrestling is dead because they're pushing a boring guy. All about dat realism. Did wrestling die at WrestleMania 30, too, according to Russo? I mean, a smaller guy like Daniel Bryan going over HHH, Randall and Batista in the same night? Bro, that shit is so unrealistic, bro, that would never happen in real life, bro. Bro, if I didn't get paid to watch this, bro, I would never watch this shit again, bro. I'm telling you, bro.


----------



## skarvika (Jun 2, 2014)

He is absolutely right that the "David vs Goliath" trope is unrealistic and tiring and that many people in modern times don't know how to create compelling characters or tell stories and that they're wrestling simply for wrestling's sake. I don't argue with him there. Tonight's show was the best one in a _long_ time though.


----------



## Peerless (Aug 28, 2014)

KC Armstrong said:


> His point was not that wrestling is dead because they're pushing a boring guy. All about dat realism. Did wrestling die at WrestleMania 30, too, according to Russo? I mean, a smaller guy like Daniel Bryan going over HHH, Randall and Batista in the same night? Bro, that shit is so unrealistic, bro, that would never happen in real life, bro. Bro, if I didn't get paid to watch this, bro, I would never watch this shit again, bro. I'm telling you, bro.


There was a story and context in place. It made sense for us to suspend our realism when Bryan beat Evolution. Bryan also had the fact that he was billed as one of the GOAT wrestlers, so it was fine. 

There was nothing with Balor.


----------



## Mobster89 (Jun 26, 2016)

Is he not the guy that made David Arquette World Champion? Is he not the guy that made a Viagara on a pole match? And he questions believability? Ummmm...


----------



## Old School Icons (Jun 7, 2012)

Finn Balor had plenty of good matches in NXT so I don't know where this nonsense comes from.


----------



## Peerless (Aug 28, 2014)

Old School Icons said:


> Finn Balor had plenty of good matches in NXT so I don't know where this nonsense comes from.


They were good, but they weren't great. None of them were memorable.


----------



## Vox Machina (May 22, 2014)

skarvika said:


> *He is absolutely right that the "David vs Goliath" trope is unrealistic and tiring* and that many people in modern times don't know how to create compelling characters or tell stories and that they're wrestling simply for wrestling's sake. I don't argue with him there. Tonight's show was the best one in a _long_ time though.


It's been working for over two thousand years. The underdog story will _never_ get old.


----------



## KC Armstrong (Jun 19, 2013)

Peerless said:


> There was a story and context in place. It made sense for us to suspend our realism when Bryan beat Evolution. Bryan also had the fact that he was billed as one of the GOAT wrestlers, so it was fine.
> 
> There was nothing with Balor.



Again, that was NOT HIS POINT. This is his quote, plain and simple.



> * Balor beat Reigns in an unbelievable match that would have never happened if the fight were a shoot. Reigns would be flossing his teeth with Balor.


----------



## Peerless (Aug 28, 2014)

KC Armstrong said:


> Again, that was NOT HIS POINT. This is his quote, plain and simple.


And I don't disagree with him. Unless the smaller guy has a story/gimmick that makes it believable, then the much bigger guy should win. If Balor was actually presented in a way, that could have made it realistic do you think he would be complaining?

Point is, he wasn't. Hence, it wasn't believable. Since Balor doesn't have a gimmick it was essentially just two guys going at it with no other factors in play.


----------



## RKO 4life (Feb 20, 2013)

Not only is the fans killing wrestling but Vince is feeding them the little guys.


----------



## Chris JeriG.O.A.T (Jun 17, 2014)

I agree with everything Russo said. You want to put over Balor and punish Reigns, fine. But why did the US Champ have to eat the pin in a match with 2 other guys in the match, neither of which have done anything worthwhile recently? The reason is they're IWC darlings and he isn't, so he's expendable in the Geek era, even though he's world champ material.

Big guys shouldn't automatically win every match but there was a time when the small guy needed something that allowed him to beat the big guy; now it's"heart" for every one of them, every single time. Apparently being a midget automatically gives you more heart and resilience than any big guy. It's horseshit. 

These guys don't have any other remarkable qualities like cunning or viciousness so they win matches by getting pummeled into oblivion until the other guy gets gassed and makes a mistake, then they do their comeback sequence and hit their finisher which all together do a fraction of the punishment they took but it's enough to put away theses heart free big guys.


----------



## Delbusto (Apr 6, 2008)

Complaining about and basing the outcome of a match on who would win in a shoot fight is pretty silly, Big Show would be the reigning champ since like 1999 if that were true.


----------



## Asmodeus (Oct 9, 2013)

KC Armstrong said:


> Shit. Now all those casual fans Roman brought to the product in the last couple of years will stop watching. How could they do this?


I have to take umbrage with this, I left wrestling and paid almost no attention after about 2002. The Shield brought me back in and I stayed because it was interesting to me to see Roman struggling, but yet, I saw him as a guy that could improve. Watching that take place has been great. 

Dean has become a bit 'meh' for me, but I'm glad he held on to the title. Seth was always good for me, but never the guy I saw as a star, to see him shine has been wonderful.


----------



## Not Lying (Sep 9, 2013)

I can't wait to see Balor as WWE champion for over a year :mark:


----------



## RetepAdam. (May 13, 2007)

You booked David Arquette to win the WCW World Heavyweight Championship, you fucking jagaloon.


----------



## Asmodeus (Oct 9, 2013)

ItsaNewDay said:


> What real life fighting experience does Roman have over Finn that says he would beat him in an actual fight?
> 
> For all we know Finn would rip him to shreds lol


Why would he? Has he had any experience fighting IRL? Anoa'i at least was a football player since he was a kid, through HS, college, and B teams in the pros. He's for sure used to giving and receiving some physical punishment. If wrestling ain't ballet, football damn sure ain't wrestling.


----------



## Not Lying (Sep 9, 2013)

Peerless said:


> And I don't disagree with him. Unless the smaller guy has a story/gimmick that makes it believable, then the much bigger guy should win. If Balor was actually presented in a way, that could have made it realistic do you think he would be complaining?
> 
> Point is, he wasn't. Hence, it wasn't believable. Since Balor doesn't have a gimmick it was essentially just two guys going at it with no other factors in play.


Except one is a much better wrestler than the other, and sometimes skills beats size? you know, just a random idea.


----------



## Pure_Dynamite12 (Nov 3, 2015)

While I do think Finn should have been built up with a mid card title for six months or so, nothing Russo says here is worthwhile. Sami is made of rubber, because nothing hurts him? Reigns took brogue kicks and codebreakers and a Coup De Grace to pin him. Finn beating Rusev killed what killed wrestling? Sure, because David Arquette and the guy who books the show being world champion didn't.

This sounds like an angry old tool pissed off that his terrible ideas aren't being heard.


----------



## KC Armstrong (Jun 19, 2013)

Asmodeus said:


> I have to take umbrage with this, I left wrestling and paid almost no attention after about 2002. The Shield brought me back in and I stayed because it was interesting to me to see Roman struggling, but yet, I saw him as a guy that could improve. Watching that take place has been great.



Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but you can't really argue with cold hard facts. Russo saying "Oh no, now that Roman lost to a vanilla midget, all hope is lost for the casual fans" doesn't make any sense when the numbers tell us that Roman didn't bring in any casual fans. He's been the #1 guy for a couple of years, headlined 2 WrestleManias and ratings have declined in that period. Am I blaming him for that? No, but he didn't have a positive impact in terms of viewership and casual fans tuning in, either. That's all.


----------



## KC Armstrong (Jun 19, 2013)

> Sure, because David Arquette and the guy who books the show being world champion didn't.



"Bro, the way I did it was totally believable, bro. Also, yuuuge publicity, bro, yuuuge."


----------



## PlKACHU (Jun 22, 2016)

People can hate Russo all they want, but he's spot on.

Since I don't watch NXT, I had no idea Balor existed until I checked the RAW results this morning. My first impression... Boring look, no character, average mic skills. Yawn.

On the plus side, WWE have given me yet another reason to never watch RAW again.


----------



## Pure_Dynamite12 (Nov 3, 2015)

Asmodeus said:


> Why would he? Has he had any experience fighting IRL? Anoa'i at least was a football player since he was a kid, through HS, college, and B teams in the pros. He's for sure used to giving and receiving some physical punishment. If wrestling ain't ballet, football damn sure ain't wrestling.


Well fist of all, a black belt in submission wrestling gives him more of a chance over a football player than being a football played over a guy with a black belt in submission wrestling. Finn would have had to roll hundreds, possibly thousands of times with guys trying to break his bones and choke him out to earn that rank.


----------



## Asmodeus (Oct 9, 2013)

KC Armstrong said:


> Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but you can't really argue with cold hard facts. Russo saying "Oh no, now that Roman lost to a vanilla midget, all hope is lost for the casual fans" doesn't make any sense when the numbers tell us that Roman didn't bring in any casual fans. He's been the #1 guy for a couple of years, headlined 2 WrestleManias and ratings have declined in that period. Am I blaming him for that? No, but he didn't have a positive impact in terms of viewership and casual fans tuning in, either. That's all.


I don't think ratings will go up. There's too many ways to watch now. If you're impatient, YT vids, if not buy the Network, cheap as can be. Wrestling can't fix people leaving TV in droves. WWE was really smart about having the Network, ratings are going to continue to decline, they will for almost every TV show. Cheap internet access will continue to increase, hence WWE's new focus on social media.


----------



## Peerless (Aug 28, 2014)

The Definition of Technician said:


> Except one is a much better wrestler than the other, and sometimes skills beats size? you know, just a random idea.


The commentary team didn't play that up. The match wasn't booked in a way to show Balor was a more skillful 'wrastler'.

It's all about presentation.


----------



## Rankles75 (May 29, 2011)

Does anyone take Russo seriously anymore? Does he even take himself seriously? Criticising RAW for jobber squash matches when they were a common occurrence in the Attitude era? fpalm Ragging on Balor because he's too small to believably win? Fucking seriously???

Just a sad, bitter little man who is becoming more irrelevant by the day...


----------



## Asmodeus (Oct 9, 2013)

Pure_Dynamite12 said:


> Well first of all, a black belt in submission wrestling gives him more of a chance over a football player than being a football player does over a guy with a black belt in submission wrestling. Finn would have had to roll hundreds, possibly thousands of times with guys trying to break his bones and choke him out to earn that rank.


Did you see the size difference? Leati Anoa'i could literally hold him down, that's the end. Why are there weight classes in real fights? Because it makes a difference. Why was DC/Silva booed? Because everyone knew Silva had a great chance of winning if they stood up and fought, so DC just laid on him to get the win. (Not that I blame him, Silva will most certainly fight a lower weight class and DC would have looked even more of a paper champ if he'd lost a non-title match to Silva since he wouldn't be able to have a rematch.)


----------



## Natecore (Sep 16, 2013)

So Russo puts the WCW Title on David Arquette and now in 2016 complains about an actual wrestler winning matches?

I claim the Internet giving a voice to everybody is a magnificent thing but Vince Russo makes me question that belief. He is exhausting with his constant trolling and what's worse is that people keep him relevant. 

fpalm


----------



## JTB33b (Jun 26, 2007)

Wasn't Russo the same guy who thought it was a good idea to put the title on David Arquette?


----------



## SHIVV-EAUX-EMME-GEEE (Sep 12, 2013)

Russo is just a bitter IWC tool who can't hold a job. His opinion is irrelevant. RAW was actually good.


----------



## Pure_Dynamite12 (Nov 3, 2015)

Asmodeus said:


> Did you see the size difference? Leati Anoa'i could literally hold him down, that's the end. Why are there weight classes in real fights? Because it makes a difference. Why was DC/Silva booed? Because everyone knew Silva had a great chance of winning if they stood up and fought, so DC just laid on him to get the win. (Not that I blame him, Silva will most certainly fight a lower weight class and DC would have looked even more of a paper champ if he'd lost a non-title match to Silva.)


You mean like the first five or so UFC events where there were no weight classes? or the first two specifically in which a 165 pound, 5'8 brazillian by the name of Royce Gracie dominated guys who were forty to fifty pounds heavier than him, and only lost eventually due to fatigue?


----------



## Rankles75 (May 29, 2011)

Didn't Russo book the fucking 1-2-3 Kid to pin Razor Ramon clean btw?


----------



## Alright_Mate (Jul 21, 2014)

He makes good points about Finn; however whatever happened in the Fatal 4-Way you would still get a host of people moaning. Rusev shouldn't be pinned because he is United States Champion, Owens pinned two nights in a row this sucks, Cesaro pinned well he ain't getting no push. Balor was never pinning Cesaro, face on face rarely if ever happens, so it was a toss up between Rusev & KO and Rusev pulled the short straw. As for Reigns the Universe will be ecstatic, Reigns' push looks to be finally over, I'm sorry Vince but you may not be happy, but thousands of other people are.

Back to Balor though, the guy is coming into Raw on the back of one of the least memorable NXT title reigns. He is a good wrestler but he is not a star, his moveset is pretty average, he has poor mic skills and really he has no character. I've said it before this demon act is not a demon act, he is just some guy who chucks on fancy body paint, goes out and does the same shit, it's true and fans who are not familiar with Balor's work in NXT will see this soon enough.

Loads are calling for the likes of Reigns to turn heel, if there's one guy who needs to turn heel it's Finn Balor, the guy is simply not a face. In the long run if Rollins remains heel, Reigns remains face and Balor remains face, Raw by the end of 2016 will be incredibly boring.


----------



## yeahright2 (Feb 11, 2011)

Beating Rusev AND Reigns is a bit too much at his debut, but wrestling like Russo knows it died a long time ago -Which is fine with me, we don´t need x-on-a-pole matches, ninja abductions for no reasons, and swerves just for the sake of it.


----------



## JTB33b (Jun 26, 2007)

He is probally just mad that he wasn't asked to be the GM. He is taking it out on small guys because Daniel Bryan got asked over him.


----------



## Allbrother (Jun 25, 2016)

Yeah, they should've kept building Reigns to be unbeatable so David Arguette can eventually go over him at WM for the title...

Never thought I'd say this but... Fuck Vince Russo


----------



## Natecore (Sep 16, 2013)

I will say he was right with my idea that Enzo and Cass should be hyped as being part of the show. We shouldn't have to wait to know they're going to be featured. These guys are the future of the WWE. Hype them.

Even the guy that made David Arquette champion can stumble upon a correct thought.

Have I mentioned he put the title on David Arquette?

If I haven't Vince Russo was the guy that put the title on David Arquette.


----------



## Morrison17 (Feb 16, 2013)

Well, it was one of the worst wrestling show of last few years fpr sure. Only dumb nxt fangirls gonna deny that.
Thre is nothing on RAW for wrestling fans.


----------



## Asmodeus (Oct 9, 2013)

Pure_Dynamite12 said:


> You mean like the first five or so UFC events where there were no weight classes? or the first two specifically in which a 165 pound, 5'8 brazillian by the name of Royce Gracie dominated guys who were forty to fifty pounds heavier than him, and only lost eventually due to fatigue?


Tell me who you think Gracie would dominate today? Nobody. UFC is different, people have more varied skill sets because they're now training specifically in MMA skills. That leads to weight classes.

Any guy outweighed by 75 lbs. would get dominated in a regular fight unless they happened upon a dude with no experience at all getting physical.


----------



## BrettSK (Dec 16, 2014)

It's 2016 - why would anyone care what Vince Russo thinks?


----------



## SHIVV-EAUX-EMME-GEEE (Sep 12, 2013)

Russo is inconsistent. Finn is too small but Sasha isn't? "Realistically " they are both too small, but they are great performers. Russo is trapped in his mindset and can't see how good RAW was. That's his problem. My enjoyment of RAW isn't contingent on whether he affirms the show or not.


----------



## JTB33b (Jun 26, 2007)

Also didn't Russo throw a fit when Hogan refused to job to Jarrett? Is Jarrett beating Hogan at that time believable?


----------



## Pure_Dynamite12 (Nov 3, 2015)

Asmodeus said:


> Tell me who you think Gracie would dominate today? Nobody. UFC is different, people have more varied skill sets because they're now training specifically in MMA skills. That leads to weight classes.
> 
> Any guy outweighed by 75 lbs. would get dominated in a regular fight unless they happened upon a dude with no experience at all getting physical.


This is not an argument in the slightest. Of course mma is different today, you have to be a complete fighter to stand a chance. But we're not talking about two fighters of the modern day, we're talking about a football player and a guy who has countless hours of training.

Royce Gracie has relevance to this subject because he beat guys bigger than him who didn't have the training that he did. Finn most definitely has training Reigns doesn't. It's not a certainty, but if you don't believe Finn would have a chance against an untrained guy, you know literally nothing about the subject.


----------



## JTB33b (Jun 26, 2007)

Asmodeus said:


> Tell me who you think Gracie would dominate today? Nobody. UFC is different, people have more varied skill sets because they're now training specifically in MMA skills. That leads to weight classes.
> 
> Any guy outweighed by 75 lbs. would get dominated in a regular fight unless they happened upon a dude with no experience at all getting physical.


Not true. A much bigger guy would only have an advantage if their fighting skills were equal. His strength advantage would then be too much. But a very skilled small fighter could still beat a lesser skilled big guy, even if the bigger guy has some skills. Especially if the smaller guy is much quicker which will usually be the case.


----------



## Chris JeriG.O.A.T (Jun 17, 2014)

I see a lot of mindless parrots repeating the same straw man bullshit. Disagree with Russo but make a fucking point when you do it; his failures 20 years ago don't automatically disqualify his opinions now.


----------



## Marv95 (Mar 9, 2011)

JTB33b said:


> Also didn't Russo throw a fit when Hogan refused to job to Jarrett? Is Jarrett beating Hogan at that time believable?


Not CLEAN. Plus Jarrett looked bigger than Balor at the time. Balor beating Rusev and Reigns on the SAME NIGHT straight up _clean_ is unbelievable and you know it.

Like it or not he's right. The WWE shouln't be catering to smarks to THIS level. Now maybe he'll eat his words if RAW becomes more storyline driven inspite of indy guys taking over screen time. Until then get ready for the 1s when the NFL returns.


----------



## Jonasolsson96 (Dec 31, 2014)

This guy just likes complaining. Wasnt it he who has complained about matches being too long? "Casuals want to watch entertainment not wrestling" Then he complains about squash matches? Plz. Who cares. I liked this raw episode. They made a star out of balor in one night which was needed. 

Good job wwe I'm actually excited for next week.


----------



## Asmodeus (Oct 9, 2013)

Pure_Dynamite12 said:


> This is not an argument in the slightest. Of course mma is different today, you have to be a complete fighter to stand a chance. But we're not talking about two fighters of the modern day, we're talking about a football player and a guy who has countless hours of training.
> 
> Royce Gracie has relevance to this subject because he beat guys bigger than him who didn't have the training that he did. Finn most definitely has training Reigns doesn't. It's not a certainty, but if you don't believe Finn would have a chance against an untrained guy, you know literally nothing about the subject.


Dude, one of my very first points was, there would be a chance if they stood up and fought, if Reigns pulled a DC, or, let's be honest, a Lesnar, he'd lay on top of the guy and the fight would be over.

Football players don't like to face off against a dude that's even twenty or thirty lbs. heavier, it gives them an advantage and all they're trying to do is take each other down. 75 lbs. heavier is a big enough difference to keep a MF down.


----------



## Jonasolsson96 (Dec 31, 2014)

JTB33b said:


> Not true. A much bigger guy would only have an advantage if their fighting skills were equal. His strength advantage would then be too much. But a very skilled small fighter could still beat a lesser skilled big guy, even if the bigger guy has some skills. Especially if the smaller guy is much quicker which will usually be the case.



I can agree with this. Been training bjj for 8 years and over the years I have seen many 170 pound black and brown belts dominate 220+ guys with lesser gradings. So if you tell a story of balor using speed and technique it is believeable. But yeah if its two guys at a similair skill level the bigger guy obviously has a huge advantage thats why there are weightclasses. 


Still its all in the story. You could have the announcers say Finn Balor has picked up different set of skills all over the world for the past 16 years which makes him one of the best today and that may come to his advantage facing guys like Reigns and Rusev who only have a third of his experience.


----------



## SHIVV-EAUX-EMME-GEEE (Sep 12, 2013)

We need a crying Russo smiley to go along with :mj2 :hogan :flair


----------



## The5star_Kid (Mar 4, 2013)

Owens, Rusev and Cesaro are all more deserving of a main event at Summerslam and a title shot and I completely agree, Balor barely wrestles but I kinda liked the Raw. Balor being king was surprising and Rusev is back to being a mean mofo. All we need now is more mic time for Lana....on which note, why is she not being given mic time?


----------



## -Sambo Italiano- (Jan 3, 2007)

Wrestling escaping the narrow confines of Vince Russo's imagination is a sign of it heading in the right direction.

I think it's fair to say that it would be far more worrying if he thought Raw was good.


----------



## The True Believer (Oct 19, 2013)

I guess when Nia Jax eventually wins the WWE Women's Championship, no one should beat her because it's not believable. Won't that be fun, guys? :bayley2


----------



## Bl0ndie (Dec 14, 2011)

This is ridiculous. Best raw in months. As a format, best raw in years. 

I don't know why it's so difficult to understand Balor winning these two matches. He was being ragdolled about by the bigger guys for the majority of both matches and when he actually managed to get the upperhand it was when he used strikes that legit looked like they could kill you. As someone who never really watched him before the guy was like an assassin. Everyone involved in those fatal four ways looked legit and played their strengths and told engaging stories. Doghouse? Reigns looked like an absolute monster! He just happened to get outmaneuvered in those last moments of the match. This Russo chap is an utter gumbus


----------



## hou713 (Aug 22, 2008)

Pure_Dynamite12 said:


> You mean like the first five or so UFC events where there were no weight classes? or the first two specifically in which a 165 pound, 5'8 brazillian by the name of Royce Gracie dominated guys who were forty to fifty pounds heavier than him, and only lost eventually due to fatigue?


That was during a time where his opponents knew nothing about defending BJJ

his skill advantage was much, much larger than his size disadvantage which is very rare


Nothing like that has happened again since, and it won't, because the rest of the world has caught up


I get your point, but I highly doubt Finn's fighting skill advantage over Roman (or any "A" vs "B" example today) is at a comparable level to Gracie's over the rest of the world at that time, like I said, that's very rare


The truth is, significant size differences definitely matter. No, size is not a guarantee, but a 6'4" guy in great shape is always going to have an advantage over a 5'7" guy in great shape for example 


As skilled as he is, do you really see Jose Aldo defeating Jon Jones?


----------



## Reotor (Jan 8, 2016)

A lot of times Russo is on point but he is such a size mark its laughable.


----------



## Genking48 (Feb 3, 2009)

I'm sure people said Russo killed wrestling back in the day when he came in with his car crash tv style, it'll be just fine.

If Russo hates wrestling so much, why does he keep being in the business, just go to Hollywood or something.


----------



## moggy (Apr 21, 2016)

Funny how he said that casuals will now boycott RAW just because Roman Reigns lost, lol what a stupid comment! There's surely other wrestlers who the casuals would be and who are already invested in, like Sasha Banks just won the Women's title. It's also funny how he said that Finn Balor would not beat Roman Reigns in a "shoot" fight, well no shit Shirlock, wrestling is scripted anyway, would David Arquette win the title in a real fight? Exactly.


----------



## michael_3165 (Apr 16, 2016)

RAW JOTTINGS:

* In a night that was written to shame and embarrass Roman Reigns for failing a drug test, Stephanie kicked off the festivities by calling him a "loser" at the top of the show, claiming that he cost RAW the WWE Championship the night before. So what does Stephanie do to the said "loser"? Why, she books him in a fatal four-way match, in turn giving the said "loser" yet another opportunity to gain a shot at the WWE Title. Makes sense, right? He has a point here... why would Stephanie do that? Didn't make sense but I can overlook that.

* The best part of Finn Balor is his "Special" entrance that comes only at the "Big Shows". I guess his DEBUT on RAW wasn't a "Big Enough Show" and didn't warrant his "Special" entrance, so he came out looking like just a regular guy to the casual fans that had never seen him before. If every bloke on the street looked like Balor I'd have been single forever. Sure he is tiny in comparison to other guys on the roster but he is built.

* Super kicks are the new craze. There's at least 5 in every match now, none of which are devastating enough to put an opponent away. Ask your buddy to kick you square in the face tomorrow, and let's see how quickly you get back up. Point here too. I just hate the overuse of a move that was once a fantastic finish. The Usos have ruined the move for me.

* They put Balor over Rusev, and I swear Balor looked half his size. This is where you could have officially put a fork in the wrestling you once knew. He is obsessed with size. Again Balor has a physique most of the male fans would die for. 

* Nia Jax over in a squash match. Outside of the Internet Wrestling Community, why is anybody going to watch a fake fight when they know who's going over before the bell even rings? Good luck with this come football season. This wasn't a problem twenty years ago - the exact era that Russo cites as being the golden era (80s). He is getting his arguments in a bit of a mess

* Reigns went over in his fatal four-way. I swear, Sami Zayn is made of rubber because nothing hurts this guy. Point here... if you kick out or get up from everything it makes me (personally) care less because why would I worry about you?

* New Day "sketch" was B-R-U-T-A-L. There was nothing funny about it. At least the Club put us out of our misery by getting some heat. 

* At this point they should just put Curtis Axel on the ring crew. Point... how is this guy the offspring of the great Mr Perfect>?

* Girls stole the show. Worked their [email protected]#$% off! I would have kept the belt on Charlotte and really built her as the heel that nobody could beat, but the IWC wins once again, as their darling Sasha Banks is now the new Champ. Actually, I'm a fan of Sasha, she's believable. Liked the "Johnny-on-the-Spot" interview after the match. Some real emotion there.

* Braun Strowman in another jobber match. I guess this is how the slim roster will be filled each week. Oh, boy--can't wait for more squash matches. Yet he says he wants big guys that look like wrestlers... what does this guy actually want? He can hardly talk when he was the mastermind behind the Oddities.

* Enzo and Cass are the hottest things on the show. Why would you keep it a secret that they're booked, instead of promoting it throughout the show?

* Balor beat Reigns in an unbelievable match that would have never happened if the fight were a shoot. Reigns would be flossing his teeth with Balor. But, we had to cater to the IWC, while making Reigns pay his penance. Here's an idea. Rather than give Reigns that lame promo at the end when he put Balor over, why not just castrate the guy in front of a live audience? Even better. It is physically impossible to shoot a person off the ropes and for them to bounce back if it is a shoot. If it is a shoot nobody could slam another person... If it was a shoot Michaels would have been crushed by Taker within minutes at WM25 and 26. Again what is his point? We are not in the 80s (when even then they knew it was a work). 

* Rollins vs. Balor at SummerSlam---OH, BOY!!! Yes because we really want another Reigns vs Rollins, Reigns vs Styles, Reigns vs Ambrose... is this guy really that stupid? 


In short - Russo has some really good points when he talks about logical aspects of the business. Yet he shits all over his credibility by making stupid comments about other aspects of the business. We are not in the Jerry Springer, Crash TV world that dominated the Attitude Era any longer and Russo needs to understand that fact.


----------



## Darius (Jul 26, 2016)

hou713 said:


> That was during a time where his opponents knew nothing about defending BJJ
> 
> his skill advantage was much, much larger than his size disadvantage which is very rare
> 
> ...


You mean like 155 pound Marcelo Garcia demolishing super heavyweight, former UFC heavyweight champion, and BJJ blackbelt Ricco Rodriguez at the 2005 ADCC in the open weight division? Granted, not the UFC, but that's a guy smaller than Balor destroying a (well) trained opponent who is bigger than Roman. Also, the original argument was that Finn is a blackbelt in submission wrestling while we don't know of Roman having any real training at all. If all he's bringing to a fight is football and athleticism, Finn is going to tear his limbs off.


----------



## michael_3165 (Apr 16, 2016)

Genking48 said:


> I'm sure people said Russo killed wrestling back in the day when he came in with his car crash tv style, it'll be just fine.
> 
> If Russo hates wrestling so much, why does he keep being in the business, just go to Hollywood or something.


In fairness to him he doesn't hate the business at all. He just wants it as it was years ago.


----------



## The True Believer (Oct 19, 2013)

> * In a night that was written to shame and embarrass Roman Reigns for failing a drug test, Stephanie kicked off the festivities by calling him a "loser" at the top of the show, claiming that he cost RAW the WWE Championship the night before. So what does Stephanie do to the said "loser"? Why, she books him in a fatal four-way match, in turn giving the said "loser" yet another opportunity to gain a shot at the WWE Title. Makes sense, right?


Well, it's not like Reigns was given the chance to fight for the WWE Universal title straight away like Seth. He had to win two matches just to get in. 



> * The best part of Finn Balor is his "Special" entrance that comes only at the "Big Shows". I guess his DEBUT on RAW wasn't a "Big Enough Show" and didn't warrant his "Special" entrance, so he came out looking like just a regular guy to the casual fans that had never seen him before.


Seeing as how this is the same guy who wanted Undertaker to immediately retaliate on Kane after Bad Blodd '97, instead of waiting for the confrontation at Wrestlemania 14, I can't say I'm surprised he still hasn't grasped the concept of hype and build-up. But really, Vince? It's almost 20 years late from then. Get a clue.



> * Super kicks are the new craze. There's at least 5 in every match now, none of which are devastating enough to put an opponent away. Ask your buddy to kick you square in the face tomorrow, and let's see how quickly you get back up.


I guess he's not going to complain about the DDT spam that's been happening for years now because unlike the superkick, the indies didn't popularize its prevalance in wrestling. Figures. 



> * They put Balor over Rusev, and I swear Balor looked half his size. This is where you could have officially put a fork in the wrestling you once knew.


Oh yeah, Alexander "Needle Mover" Rusev gets beat by a guy half of his size, in a match where two other wrestlers obviously had their shot in at him. Time to pack in in, WF. Anyone up for the CF(Cricket Forum) instead?



> * Nia Jax over in a squash match. Outside of the Internet Wrestling Community, why is anybody going to watch a fake fight when they know who's going over before the bell even rings? Good luck with this come football season.


If an obvious second hour squash match is what the viewers arrive to, without switching to football once, why would they have any problems tuning BACK to RAW once they counted to 6 Mississippi?



> * Reigns went over in his fatal four-way. I swear, Sami Zayn is made of rubber because nothing hurts this guy.


Which is precisely why he went ov...oh. Oh yeah. Didn't happen, did it?



> * New Day "sketch" was B-R-U-T-A-L. There was nothing funny about it. At least the Club put us out of our misery by getting some heat.


This, I will actually agree with him on. That "Sonny Boy" crap dragged on for way too long and as much as I don't like The Club, at least the segment made some headway as far as making heels "over".



> * At this point they should just put Curtis Axel on the ring crew.


If you want a job with WWE, this is where you belong more than anything.



> * Girls stole the show. Worked their [email protected]#$% off! I would have kept the belt on Charlotte and really built her as the heel that nobody could beat, but the IWC wins once again, as their darling Sasha Banks is now the new Champ. Actually, I'm a fan of Sasha, she's believable. Liked the "Johnny-on-the-Spot" interview after the match. Some real emotion there.


So let me see if I got this right...Finn Bálor beating a guy twice his size in a FATAL FOUR WAY match isn't believable, with a move that requires gravity to do most of the work, but Sasha Banks outright making a stronger, bigger competitor tap out is perfectly okay? Yeah, I honestly saw nothing about that match that would make that outcome "believable" from Banks but since he marks out for her, I guess that makes it okay. (Y)



> * Braun Strowman in another jobber match. I guess this is how the slim roster will be filled each week. Oh, boy--can't wait for more squash matches.


Yeah, silly WWE. HE should've been the one to fight Roman in the main event because as we all know, pushing guys into the main event because of their look has never lead to either counterproductive or disastrous results in this era before. :troll

Also why the fuck is this doddering old fart with his "old skool was cool" gimmick not competent enough to understand the concept of a squash match? The fuck, Russo?



> * Enzo and Cass are the hottest things on the show. Why would you keep it a secret that they're booked, instead of promoting it throughout the show?


Again, promoting your popular stars is in no way, shape, or form a bad thing so no disagreements on that from me.



> * Balor beat Reigns in an unbelievable match that would have never happened if the fight were a shoot. Reigns would be flossing his teeth with Balor. But, we had to cater to the IWC, while making Reigns pay his penance. Here's an idea. Rather than give Reigns that lame promo at the end when he put Balor over, why not just castrate the guy in front of a live audience? Even better.


Hunico and Yoshi Tatsu beat up Sheamus IRL. I suppose those two should main event Wrestlemania or any other major PPV since Sheamus couldn't beat them up in a shoot. By the way, the whole "catering to the IWC" gimmick he's got going fails because he calls the IWC "the smallest audience with the loudest voice" but Bálor got a good reaction last night and I have no doubt it'll continue from this point on. So, if the crowd is cheering him, doesn't that mean that the IWC IS the audience? If so, why would they have the "smallest voice"? And on the flip side, if they truly are the smallest audience, wouldn't that mean that your precious casuals dig the "vanilla midgets" that you think are killing wrestling? 



> * Rollins vs. Balor at SummerSlam---OH, BOY!!!


Frankly, I'm not that excited about the match, either but I'll still call out drivel like Russo's if the entire premise falls on the feet of "realism" being ignored, leading to wrestling's downfall when so much more is responsible for viewers tuning out.

Also, I hate to use overrated terms like "hypocrisy" to call out someone's points because on WF, a lot of times I see that word being used when the person has no real way to counter another's point but notice how he goes into detail about how Bálor winning his matches isn't believable yet he can't do the same for Banks, despite being tiny compared to the woman she forcibly made tap out. Hypocrisy is the only thing I can say for Russo on that point.


----------



## Mobster89 (Jun 26, 2016)

In all honesty, did anybody in the two fatal four way matches come out of it looking weak. EVERYBODY took their fair share of punishment, but EVERYBODY got to dish it out as well. I love Rusev, but getting pinned after a 15 to 25 minute battle doesn't really make him look weak. 

Rusev has had worse losses in his career than the loss he had last night. Reigns' loss is easy to justify as well. Not only was it his third match in 24 hours, but only his 4th match in a month. 

The ONLY thing that I agree with is the overuse of the super kick.


----------



## Doc (Oct 4, 2010)

CretinHop138 said:


> :shitstorm
> 
> http://fightful.com/russo-balor-defeating-roman-reigns-and-rusev-was-nail-coffin-me


Oh Russo.

Please shut the fuck up


----------



## Genking48 (Feb 3, 2009)

Chris JeriG.O.A.T said:


> I agree with everything Russo said. You want to put over Balor and punish Reigns, fine. *But why did the US Champ have to eat the pin in a match with 2 other guys in the match, neither of which have done anything worthwhile recently? *The reason is they're IWC darlings and he isn't, so he's expendable in the Geek era, even though he's world champ material.


I'd agree with this, watching it I actually felt like Balor and Reigns should have been switched so Reigns was in the four way with Rusev/Owens/Cesaro and Balor in there with Sheamo/Jericho/Zayn.

It's fine having him go over Reigns if that is what they want to go with, but let someone other than your US champ eat the pin.


----------



## MaybeLock (Mar 11, 2013)

It's a new era but Russo still as butthurt as usual. :lenny


----------



## Stephleref (Jun 28, 2011)

Balor winning a title shot cleanly on Reigns with no build up is dumb,handing him the "universal" title right now would be even dumber,why go there right now when it's not believable? He also didn't get much of a reaction because alot of the crowd didn't even know who he was. I don't like Reigns or Cena winning all the time but them randomly losing is just as freaking stupid. Cena's lost to Del Rio for exemple was incredibly stupid and Reigns losing cleanly here is stupid.

Am i supposed to think that this guy who got crushed by an aging Samoa Joe cleanly beating one of the Raw top guys just like that is great?


----------



## 2Pieced (Feb 23, 2015)

Asmodeus said:


> Did you see the size difference? Leati Anoa'i could literally hold him down, that's the end. Why are there weight classes in real fights? Because it makes a difference. Why was DC/Silva booed? Because everyone knew Silva had a great chance of winning if they stood up and fought, so DC just laid on him to get the win. (Not that I blame him, Silva will most certainly fight a lower weight class and DC would have looked even more of a paper champ if he'd lost a non-title match to Silva since he wouldn't be able to have a rematch.)


Can't compare this to Cormier/Silva

Daniel Cormier is a God damn World and Olympic wrestler, it wasn't that he was bigger than Silva so he could just lay on him.

Doesn't matter how much bigger you are if you are on the ground fighting against a legit world class wrestler he will fuck you up quick if you have no training and if you are trained fighter a wrestler will still dominate in the vast majority of those occasions.


----------



## Chief of the Lynch Mob (Aug 22, 2014)

Good god Russo, shut up.

Last night's RAW was actually very enjoyable IMO and generally quite surprising. Yeah sure, Balor going to Summerslam so early in his main roster run might be a bit over the top but at least it's something different to Reigns/Rollins which has been going on for a while now.


----------



## Florat (Feb 25, 2016)

Stephleref said:


> Balor winning a title shot cleanly on Reigns with no build up is dumb,handing him the "universal" title right now would be even dumber,why go there right now when it's not believable? He also didn't get much of a reaction because alot of the crowd didn't even know who he was. I don't like Reigns or Cena winning all the time but them randomly losing is just as freaking stupid. Cena's lost to Del Rio for exemple was incredibly stupid and Reigns losing cleanly here is stupid.
> 
> Am i supposed to think that this guy who got crushed by an aging Samoa Joe cleanly beating one of the Raw top guys just like that is great?


The worst is that Balor wasn't even that great on NXT. I liked him but I think the majority would agree that he was bland, didn't live to the hype and was the worst NXT Champion and that's on NXT where he can often have good opponents and doesn't have to cut long promos.

I don't think he had one classic match since he debuted. Kevin Owens at least made a impact on NXT and everybody could agree that he was a great champion, same for Zayn or Neville, they showed they could be good but Balor ? The Revival for exemple did a better job than him.

I would rather have him against Rusev for the U.S Title to launch him while Zayn could go for the World Title as a reward for his great match at Batteground


----------



## J-B (Oct 26, 2015)

I don't get his beef with the 'IWC' (HATE that term btw), they're the only people who subscribe and pay for his stuff.


----------



## The True Believer (Oct 19, 2013)

TheyDon'tWantNone! said:


> I don't get his beef with the 'IWC' (HATE that term btw), they're the only people who subscribe and pay for his stuff.


IKR? Way to bite the hand that feeds you. :lol


----------



## THE HAITCH (May 18, 2016)

Roman didn't deserve to lose to a skinny guy who wears lifts.

Ratchet Banks didn't deserve to beat the genetically superior Charlotte.

Rusev needed to win that Fatal 4 Way match more than anyone else.

In short, RAW of this latest "new era" of this year, sucked.

:trips7


----------



## AJ Leegion (Nov 21, 2012)

:HA

People talking about Russo complaining about every little thing.


----------



## JDP2016 (Apr 4, 2016)

ItsaNewDay said:


> What real life fighting experience does Roman have over Finn that says he would beat him in an actual fight?
> 
> For all we know Finn would rip him to shreds lol


Doesn't Finn have a martial arts background? All I know about Roman is he played college football at Georgia Tech.


----------



## Lesnar Turtle (Dec 6, 2011)

I thought Raw showed promise. 

As far Balor beating Reigns goes- i'm not sold on Balor as a long term main eventer, but Reigns winning would have been a much more predictable outcome and would have lead to even more Reigns/Rollins feuding which hardly feels fresh or exciting at this point.


----------



## Stinger Fan (Jun 21, 2006)

Nightrow said:


> Samoans have a reputation for being tough in wrestling.


Wrestling is fake and you can't name a truly great Samoan fighter(to my knowledge anyway)


----------



## Jabez Makaveli (Oct 15, 2015)

I understand where Russo is coming from and won't give him heat like everyone else is. It's like this: I was also worried about Balor getting the rocket strapped to him this early as well, judging from the end of his NXT where I thought he was boring. However, he didn't feel boring on Raw to me. Hopefully, that won't change. Perhaps they could have had him pin Cesaro and just have someone else win the other triple threat instead of Reigns so it would be believable. I also agree with the superkicks. I hate that they made the SCM what it is today. HBK could hit it on one of these young cats and get the 3 count during a match, but these guys can't win their own match with it? At some times, I feel the WWE does a bit too much trying to make the show feel more indy to please the hardcore smarks than it should be. Great spots are welcomed, but not without an actual story to tell in the ring. These days, it feels like they just want to get their shit in and call it a night instead of portraying their character to the best of their ability, if they have one. In my honest opinion, why not just have Enzo be Cass's manager and mouthpiece the way Heyman is to Lesnar? It's clear Enzo could hurt himself in the near future. Enzo has the charisma and Big Cass has the in-ring talent, enough said. I really wish Axel was drafted to Smackdown. That Mr. Irrelevancy shit is degrading to his father's legacy in my opinion. I really wish they would go back to making him a big deal like when he was IC champion and get him away from this social outcast shit. Other than that, I had no problems with the show and it felt different.


----------



## Bushmaster (Sep 28, 2010)

Vince Russo is an idiot, also not surprised at who would agree with him. Just another guy waging war against the "IWC"


----------



## JDP2016 (Apr 4, 2016)

JTB33b said:


> Also didn't Russo throw a fit when Hogan refused to job to Jarrett? Is Jarrett beating Hogan at that time believable?


Jeff Jarrett is a legit 240 pounds while Balor is only 190. I don't see the difference.


----------



## The True Believer (Oct 19, 2013)

JDP2016 said:


> Jeff Jarrett is a legit 240 pounds while Balor is only 190. I don't see the difference.


His comparison has NOTHING to do with Bálor. He's questioning why Russo is complaining about Finn beating Reigns when the same man wanted the scrawnier, weaker Jeff Jarrett to lose to the man who's bigger and stronger than him and has the most legendary feat of strength in wrestling history under his belt.


----------



## T0M (Jan 11, 2015)

Apart from the "Balor wouldn't win in a real fight" shit, I totally agree with Russo.

Fuck your workrate and overly long matches just to fill time. I want promos, character development and storylines. 

People like Owens and Rusev who are good in the ring and great on the mic should be pushed to the moon but instead we get Balor who can't cut a promo to save his life. But he's got a cool entrance and affiliation with the Bullet Club so he must be great, right.


----------



## Dark_Raiden (Feb 14, 2009)

I pretty much agree. Something told me not to watch Raw and if Roman's losing to skinny midgets like Balor (who didn't impress in that YT video) and not in the ME, then looks like that something is right and knew Raw would suck. Unfortunately Smackdown sucks too. WWE is basically unwatchable.


----------



## The True Believer (Oct 19, 2013)

T0M said:


> Apart from the "Balor wouldn't win in a real fight" shit, I totally agree with Russo.
> 
> Fuck your workrate and overly long matches just to fill time. I want promos, character development and storylines.
> 
> People like Owens and Rusev who are good in the ring and great on the mic should be pushed to the moon but instead we get Balor who can't cut a promo to save his life. But he's got a cool entrance and affiliation with the Bullet Club so he must be great, right.


Not that I'm one to advocate for a mega Finn Bálor push but why would you expect a heel to compete against Seth Rollins at Summerslam? Also, the people in question are Owens, a guy who just lost to Zayn at Battleground, and Rusev, the United States Champion. I don't think anyone with common sense would've expected to see them come out ahead. And if anything, a babyface like Bálor winning makes it more feasible for Owens or Rusev to take the belt from him, especially when it seems like Reigns is supposedly in the doghouse.


----------



## SHIVV-EAUX-EMME-GEEE (Sep 12, 2013)

Russo does have something in common with Curtis Axel: They both are Mr. Irrelevant.


----------



## T0M (Jan 11, 2015)

Spidey said:


> Not that I'm one to advocate for a mega Finn Bálor push but why would you expect a heel to compete against Seth Rollins at Summerslam? Also, the people in question are Owens, a guy who just lost to Zayn at Battleground, and Rusev, the United States Champion. I don't think anyone with common sense would've expected to see them come out ahead. And if anything, a babyface like Bálor winning makes it more feasible for Owens or Rusev to take the belt from him, especially when it seems like Reigns is supposedly in the doghouse.


I don't see why Rollins is the prize at Summerslam. He had three shots at Ambrose last week and didn't win. I'd have preferred him to feud with someone else and a tournament be set up culminating at Summerslam.


----------



## The True Believer (Oct 19, 2013)

T0M said:


> I don't see why Rollins is the prize at Summerslam. He had three shots at Ambrose last week and didn't win. I'd have preferred him to feud with someone else and a tournament be set up culminating at Summerslam.


I think they just wanted one of their "recognized" stars in Rollins to be a part of the main event to help establish credibility so I don't necessarily have an issue with it, especially if it actually adds to the story. Have Bálor question why Rollins is automatically in the main event, even though he didn't earn it. Have him talk about how in NXT, he had to earn everything he ever did. If it's the RAW of old though, he'll just come out and talk about beating Rollins in a generic babyface promo every week.


----------



## Even Flow (Jun 10, 2005)

Russo needs to crawl into his hole, and never be heard from again.


----------



## peowulf (Nov 26, 2006)

Oh man, Bret Hart and Shawn Michaels should never have beaten Diesel and Psycho Sid. Unbelievable.


----------



## Raw-Is-Botchamania (Feb 13, 2015)

New Day is like straight out of Russo's ass. Not sure what he sees.


----------



## La Parka (Oct 28, 2008)

Fans: "This raw was great!"

Russo: "Wrestling is dead because of this raw!"

Its a real wonder why this man is no longer employed in wrestling.


----------



## Mr. WrestleMania (Oct 16, 2012)

Russo has become completely retarded. He has such a huge problem with Balor beating Rusev and Reigns, due to the size difference.

Yet, Russo is the same guy who regularly calls Shawn Michaels, "the greatest of all time", and "the greatest talent I've ever worked with" and seemingly had no problem whatsoever with Shawn beating the likes of Sid, Diesel, and The Undertaker? 

Stop.


----------



## NoyK (Jul 25, 2011)

*Some people criticizing Balor for his mic skills, when he hasn't even done a promo yet.
*


----------



## V-Trigger (Jul 6, 2016)




----------



## The True Believer (Oct 19, 2013)

ShowStopper said:


> Russo has become completely retarded. He has such a huge problem with Balor beating Rusev and Reigns, due to the size difference.
> 
> Yet, Russo is the same guy who regularly calls Shawn Michaels, "the greatest of all time", and "the greatest talent I've ever worked with" and seemingly had no problem whatsoever with Shawn beating the likes of Sid, Diesel, and The Undertaker?
> 
> Stop.


Not only that but on the exact same show, he has absolutely no problems with Sasha Banks making Charlotte tapping out. Dude's a fucking mong.


----------



## A-C-P (Jan 5, 2010)

I kind of get it in the original match with Rusev, not that I agree at all about his reasoning as to why Balor should not be going over. I don't mind Rusev not winning, but he should have not been taking the fall either. With the brands split now the WWE needs Rusev to become a star IMO.

Once they made the ME Balor vs Reigns though, they needed to have Balor win clean as a face, Reigns turn heel, or Balor turn heel and joining with The Club. They could not just have Reigns win as a face, if they wanted the biggest part of their audience to even give this new "Raw" a chance. They chose option A, b/c they see Balor as a face they can build around hopefully. Balor does have qualities that appeal to both the hardcores, the "new casual", and the kids. Balor winning clean over Reigns instantly gives Raw a new star, and another "hero" to cheer for the hardcores, and this one is actually a face character.


----------



## BrokedownChevy (Feb 11, 2016)

I mostly agree. It's a show that now caters to geeks who love flamboyant wrestlers with ridiculous intros and zero personality. Gone are the days when we had actual men wrestling. Whatever the wwe is doing today has nothing to do with what was done in previous and infinitely more successful eras. I miss Stone Cold more than ever. Stone Cold wouldn't even fit into this mess of a show. The fans today would probably boo him for stunning a midget like Balor, but Balor definitely needs to be stunned as soon as possible to remind him and fans how low their standards have become.


----------



## Riddle101 (Aug 15, 2006)

Russo just being Russo I guess. Anyway what better way to debut Finn Balor than having him go over Rusev and Reigns in one night. He made a great impact and sent a message. It's just as good as when Kevin Owens defeated John Cena in his debut match last year. Bet you anything Russo had a problem with that too.


----------



## Overcomer (Jan 15, 2015)

"The sky is falling"

Anyways Russo can shove it. Yesterday was the best thing they've done in a while and now people are talking because of the twists and turns. What people don't want to see if more of the same old, they've had years of that.


----------



## The Boy Wonder (Mar 29, 2008)

I don't mind Balor defeating Reigns. It's not like he kicked out of the spear or anything like that. I wasn't a fan of Reigns pandering to Balor in that interview, unless that's just his plan to turn on him later.


----------



## PanopticonPrime (Mar 25, 2015)

How do people assume bigger guys will win in real fights? Size does not equal skill. Didn't Sheamus get lose fights against Sin Cara and Yoshi Tatsu?


----------



## bonkertons (Aug 23, 2014)

Russo seems pretty dense here. Either that or just very bitter.


----------



## Super Sexy Steele (Aug 16, 2002)

Vince, the wrestling that some of us grew up in died when you put the WCW Heavyweight Title on David Arquette.


----------



## The True Believer (Oct 19, 2013)

bonkertons said:


> Russo seems pretty dense here. Either that or just very bitter.


Why not both? I've seen it done before. :draper2


----------



## Poyser (May 6, 2014)

NoyK said:


> *Some people criticizing Balor for his mic skills, when he hasn't even done a promo yet.
> *


:lol I was about to mention this too. Someone earlier in the thread even said they'd never seen Balor before and didn't know he existed until this morning but their first impression was that he had average mic skills... I mean it's true but it's obvious you have an agenda when you're saying that and you've never seen the lad cut a promo.

Anyway, I am a little worried about the Balor push. I love watching him wrestle and the demon entrance is cool af but God is he bland and boring. He probably needed time to develop ANY sort of character before getting a true main event push. The wee backstage segment with him and Reigns was cringy af all round. That said, I think they did this mostly for the message. They needed to show people that they plan to change and that you need to watch RAW every week (especially because most thought RAW would be the same old shit) and they did that well with getting a complete fresh face in the main event scene. Roman winning would have gone against everything they were trying to sell last night.

I fully expect a Rollins win at Summerslam, but the match will be sick. Last night's RAW was probably the best for a long time, too. You can tell Russo just feels like he needs to bitch so he has something to talk about on his 7 million podcasts he does every week. You can even see the inconsistencies in his opinions, I doubt they're even his real opinions. Like I said, he needs controversy and something to bitch about otherwise he couldn't create the amount of content that he needs to.


----------



## Steve Black Man (Nov 28, 2015)

> Balor beat Reigns in an unbelievable match that would have never happened if the fight were a shoot.


The guy that literally destroyed kayfabe is talking about things being "unrealistic"?

The industry has passed you by, Vince. Now go crawl back in your hole.


----------



## Reaper (Sep 4, 2013)

Russo proving that his booking still belongs in the 90s and hasn't moved on since.


----------



## southrnbygrace (Jun 14, 2014)

Russo is correct as usual, but sadly for me, I just don't give a damn anymore. I've been way more of a casual fan since Punk left and while I'm thrilled that I won't have to sit thru Roman and Seth going at it again the thought that Balor could _actually_ beat Roman is hilarious. They should just rename it World Gymnastics Entertainment cause that's all it is anymore....guys flipping off the rope, over the top rope....hell they even had Roman do his jump over the top rope last night. If that's what today's fan consider wrestling then all I can do is feel sorry for them and flip back over to American Ninja Warrior.


----------



## JustAName (Sep 17, 2012)

PlKACHU said:


> People can hate Russo all they want, but he's spot on.
> 
> Since I don't watch NXT, I had no idea Balor existed until I checked the RAW results this morning. My first impression... Boring look, no character, average mic skills. Yawn.
> 
> On the plus side, WWE have given me yet another reason to never watch RAW again.


Yeah so because YOUR ignorant ass doesn't know him.. that should suddenly make him less skilled or less of a performer, right? Do people just hide their IQ somewhere in their head where they can't reach it or is it a serious brain vacuum? Guess it takes a miracle for people to see outside their tiny little squared box. You're not the center of the universe.. that YOU agree with someone does NOT necessarily make it "spot on" or correct, you're not a god I am sorry to inform you. If you or anyone else doesn't like a person/character for whatever reason, it does not mean they suck, it does not mean they're useless, it means FACTUALLY that they are not YOUR cup of tea. Some people hate small guys, some hate big guys, some tall guys, some hate high fliers, some hates heavy hitters, some hates technical wrestling. Everyone likes what they like, that's fine, but that doesn't mean they don't have talent simply because YOU don't see it.

You, along with a ton of other people are not wrestling fans, you're a bunch of "give me what I want or I'll bitch/cry/moan and claim to quit watching type, that isn't in it for the wrestling, but for everything to be as YOU want it to be"

A wrestling fan cares for the product, if they see good WRESTLING (which can be moves, the psychology and story telling or for some, both), performed by whoever, they enjoy it, they acknowledge it and appreciate it whether they like the person doing it or not. If a move is cool or a sequence looks awesome or a story that is told just spellbinds you, it don't matter who does it, it's just awesome. It makes it a lot more enjoyable watching wrestling when you're actually a fan of the wrestling first and foremost and not just a mark to the story or booking that goes on. When the result matter more than the match itself, and it even takes away how good a match was because it had the wrong winner... then are you really in it for the wrestling or the entertainment?


----------



## WalkingInMemphis (Jul 7, 2014)

KC Armstrong said:


> Bro, that shit is so unrealistic, bro, that would never happen in real life, bro. Bro, if I didn't get paid to watch this, bro, I would never watch this shit again, bro. I'm telling you, bro.


I'm sorry, but this was hilarious read in Russo's voice.

:lmao


----------



## The Renegade (Jul 19, 2011)

Alright - I'm going to have disagree with the majority of what Russo said. First off, Finn *did not *need to prove himself on the main roster before beating Reigns. Why? Because unlike a lot of folks currently in the company, and despite his personality deficiencies, Finn has already proven to be a draw. They were able to turn NXT into a touring brand during his time as the face of the brand. We can remark about the creative quality of his run, but the numbers speak for themselves. 

Could they have chosen someone else to take the pin instead of Rusev? Of course, but isn't that point? They wanted to put Balor over as strong as possible, and they accomplished just that. The majority of Finn's offense is strike based, so I had no difficulty buying into it taking a toll on Roman. Besides, I like Roman as much as the next guy, but casuals are not tuning in for this iteration of the guy. Turn him heel, let him loose, but partially cutting bait with a character who has failed to appeal to the casuals up to this point is anything but stupid. 

Last night's Raw was an excellent way to kick off the New Era. There were things that can be improved, but that was as close to a homerun as I've seen in quite sometime.


----------



## WalkingInMemphis (Jul 7, 2014)

PF69 said:


> Vince, the wrestling that some of us grew up in died when you put the WCW Heavyweight Title on David Arquette.


He seems to have quite the short memory, eh?


----------



## T0M (Jan 11, 2015)

NoyK said:


> *Some people criticizing Balor for his mic skills, when he hasn't even done a promo yet.
> *


You only have to watch NXT to realise his promos are terrible.


----------



## ManiT (Feb 24, 2015)

Who the hell is Vince Russo?


----------



## God Movement (Aug 3, 2011)

He's right about some things and wrong about some things, not much different to anyone on this forum. But I do like to see his perspective as he's someone who has actually worked in the industry. Let's not be so quick to slander him as if he's a complete hack. He had a job in two major promotions for several years.


----------



## Ronzilla (Feb 25, 2016)

Roman's clean loss wasn't to put Finn over, it was to put RAW over...FYI.


----------



## BehemothSuplex (Dec 21, 2014)

Shut the fuck up Russo. Whiny, has-been, bitter, stale bastard -_-

Jog on.


----------



## DaGawd44 (Jul 21, 2016)

Russo can't kill my buzz. Neither can any of his dickriders on here. You wanna know why people aren't bitching about Finn getting pushed too fast? Because we fucking like him! He has wrestled for over a decade, is the founder of one hottest stables in wrestling, he has done it all and has busted his ass. He has also taken plenty of clean losses on his way to the top. Roman was just some football player who came out of nowhere and got pushed straight to the moon just because of who he is related to. I am a huge Roman fan but there is a big difference.


----------



## LPPrince (Apr 9, 2013)

ItsaNewDay said:


> What real life fighting experience does Roman have over Finn that says he would beat him in an actual fight?
> 
> For all we know Finn would rip him to shreds lol


Aye. Tired of this idea that big fighters must always beat smaller fighters in a fight. Its not so.


----------



## The True Believer (Oct 19, 2013)

God Movement said:


> He's right about some things and wrong about some things, not much different to anyone on this forum. But I do like to see his perspective as he's someone who has actually worked in the industry. Let's not be so quick to slander him as if he's a complete hack. He had a job in two major promotions for several years.


I'm not going to take someone seriously that thinks that Bálor beating a bigger opponent in a multi-man match isn't believable yet tiny little Sasha Banks making the biggest, most physically imposing woman in the women's division, besides Nia Jax, in Charlotte tapping out, in a one on one match, is perfectly fine. Just...no.


----------



## BarrettBarrage (Jan 3, 2012)

The only part I'm on the same page with is the Rusev part.

The US Champ deserved better last night.


----------



## Godway (May 21, 2013)

Um, they've spent two years shrinking their audience by millions of viewers because of Roman Reigns push. They have nothing at all to lose in jobbing him at this point, as they've already lost it. 

Russo sounds like a goddamn moron, as always. Like he didn't even watch the match, in which Balor bumped his ass off for Roman, like all of the smaller guys do. It isn't like he went in there, no sold him, and beat him the way Roman Reigns does to everyone he faces. But I forgot, Roman Reigns is allowed to that because he's "teh big guy" even though he's not really all that big. 

He's running his mouth about "characters" when Finn just fucking debuted tonight, and winning that match IS his character-building moment to the audience. Goddamn, just stop already, Russo. Your gimmick is old.


----------



## Brollins (Aug 24, 2015)

I guess Russo has a body builder fetish too.


----------



## Banez (Dec 18, 2012)

Where was Russo when Rey Mysterio was still employed and beat up easily Kane's and Big Show's weekly basis?

Casual fans can give hope about wrestling since Balor pinned Reigns? The SAME casual fans who boo Reigns week in and week out?

I do agree with Russo about superkicks... used to finish matches.. now you see it every Uso match. But if Russo feels really that it's all dead... then he totally should stop watching and find something else to fill his life with.


----------



## Chief of the Lynch Mob (Aug 22, 2014)

Let's be honest, we all know pro wrestling is scripted, fake, whatever you want to call it, if you want to see real combat sports, you go and watch boxing, UFC, or anything else. The bigger guy doesn't always win in WWE, otherwise it would be rather stale and repetitive. Were that the case, guys like Mysterio and even Bryan would never have had their big moments, because they'd have been busy being squashed by guys like Batista.

The size is the last thing that people should be focused on when it comes to wrestling. Was it a shame that Rusev got pinned? Absolutely, but certainly not because Balor is smaller than him.


----------



## God Movement (Aug 3, 2011)

Spidey said:


> I'm not going to take someone seriously that thinks that Bálor beating a bigger opponent in a multi-man match isn't believable yet tiny little Sasha Banks making the biggest, most physically imposing woman in the women's division, besides Nia Jax, in Charlotte tapping out, in a one on one match, is perfectly fine. Just...no.


Like I said, he says some dumb shit and sometimes he actually has a perspective that is worthwhile to listen to. It's not a problem for Balor to beat either Reigns or Rusev (in a multi-man match), it's a matter of how you _book it_. I have yet to watch the Reigns v Balor match back, but from what I recall it was booked fine because Roman was dominating the majority of the match, as he would in a REAL fight. Which is ideally what you should aspire to make wrestling matches similar to, well, as far as you can go without jeopardizing the artistic & storytelling aspect of pro-wrestling.

Can't say I have a huge problem with Sasha Banks making Charlotte tap out myself because I've seen with my own two eyes girls with much smaller frames actually beating the shit out of girls taller than they are. Sasha might just hit really hard in kayfabe terms. She might just have better striking technique. Not at all hard to believe IMO. Charlotte isn't Nia Jax and the distance between a woman's ground and ceiling in terms of strength is much smaller than their male counterparts in the absence of testosterone boosters. So generally speaking it's fine.


----------



## 256097 (Aug 11, 2013)

I don't believe in Finn Balor and don't get the hype and predict he will be lost in the mid card shuffle in a year.


----------



## The True Believer (Oct 19, 2013)

God Movement said:


> Like I said, he says some dumb shit and sometimes he actually has a perspective that is worthwhile to listen to. It's not a problem for Balor to beat either Reigns or Rusev (in a multi-man match), it's a matter of how you _book it_. I have yet to watch the Reigns v Balor match back, but from what I recall it was booked fine because Roman was dominating the majority of the match, as he would in a REAL fight. Which is ideally what you should aspire to make wrestling matches similar to, well, as far as you can go without jeopardizing the artistic & storytelling aspect of pro-wrestling.
> 
> Can't say I have a huge problem with Sasha Banks making Charlotte tap out myself because I've seen with my own two eyes girls with much smaller frames actually beating the shit out of girls taller than they are. Sasha might just hit really hard in kayfabe terms. She might just have better striking technique. Not at all hard to believe IMO. Charlotte isn't Nia Jax and the distance between a woman's ground and ceiling in terms of strength is much smaller than their male counterparts in the absence of testosterone boosters. So generally speaking it's fine.


Bálor worked his usual style and Reigns was actually tossing and throwing him around. It's not like he just no sold Reigns' offense or started doing power moves himself. He worked a believable style that countered Reigns' moves. But with the way Russo's talking, you'd think that Finn was working like Hulk Hogan and powering through all of his stuff. But he wasn't. Same thing with Sasha Banks with Charlotte. She worked around her by throwing herself at her with dives and countering around her. But again, with the way Russo was talking, you'd think that Bálor should've had no chance whatsoever to beat Reigns because of how stature and build play a part into the match but IMO, it's much more apparent with Charlotte/Sasha how much Charlotte towers over her. There was a backstage segment with Reigns and Bálor and they looked about the same height. Build wise, that's where there's an obvious difference, though.


----------



## LKRocks (Sep 3, 2012)

What the fuck is Russo smoking? WWE lost the casual audience years ago. The ratings went down the drain. THe people left are mostly WWE diehards, and Roman getting depushed while they focus on NXT guys is Vince's way of taking a clear step back to pander to the loyal audience, instead of chasing the elusive "casuals" who gave up on the product.

At this point, keeping your diehard audience happy is far more profitable than risking them to chase casuals, especially with the WWE NEtwork being a big source of profit. 

No casual wants a 24/7 WWE Wrestling network. Tonight was the WWE realizing that they are a niche product, and booking to their most loyal audience. The business is not at the point where you can scoff at the "Smarks" because they'll "keep watching anyway".

Everyone has stopped watching. If they lose the smarks too, they're fucking done.


----------



## What A Maneuver (Jun 16, 2013)

Only *now* is wrestling dead, after a surprisingly solid RAW with a popular up and comer pinning a hated, just off suspension Roman Reigns who is in the doghouse?


----------



## nogginthenog (Mar 30, 2008)

Fin Balor won.

No enhancement necessary.

Surely that is the story really. One Russo fails to acknowledge at all.


----------



## TheClub (May 15, 2016)

Russo pushed a guy like Jeff Jarrett. Nuff said. 

Sent from my Moto G using Tapatalk


----------



## Reggie Dunlop (Nov 2, 2015)

Good to see after one rare moment of pseudo-lucidity that Russo is back to being the irrelevant imbecile he always was. The ultimate irony there is hat he was instrumental in killing the pro wrestling that _I_ grew up with and knew and loved. 

I'm not even going to give him a fuck-you because he's just not worth that extra minim of testosterone it would require.


----------



## blackholeson (Oct 3, 2014)

He forgot to mention the Universal Title. Lol. Jesus Christ Russo is so right. Anyone disagreeing with Vince Russo is the part of the problem.


----------



## I drink and I know things (Feb 7, 2010)

Russo is an idiot who makes some good points sometimes. When I listen to him rant, I can see how he had some value in the creative process so long as he wasn't given too much power.


----------



## Reaper (Sep 4, 2013)

Reading Russo's crap btw, it sounds like all he's doing is playing an anti IWC gimmick troll in order to put himself and his show over so he can put food on his table. Nothing he says is of any greater relevance than the average anti-IWC gimmick troll on this site (almost sounds like he's actually picking up anti-IWC troll comments from here and there to put on his own show). 

There are actually no real thoughts in there at all and no merit to anything he's saying. He's a has been that's now basically a nothing at all.

Given how much the crowd popped last night and how much they loved the show, it's obvious as fuck that Russo would have booked a shit show in comparison.


----------



## Tiger Driver '91 (May 25, 2015)

Who gives a fuck what he has to say when he himself was once a champion.....like seriously.


----------



## jim courier (Apr 5, 2013)

Finn Balor fucking sucks people are only hyped because it's something new but he's awful. He makes Ziggler look like Steve Austin in the entertainment department.


----------



## TyAbbotSucks (Dec 10, 2013)

It's dead bro, it's dead :russo


----------



## jim courier (Apr 5, 2013)

Mastodonic said:


> Russo made Jeff Jarrett a top guy. I don't think he should comment on mediocre talent getting pushed.


Jeff Jarrett is Hulk Hogan, Steve Austin and The Rock combined compared to Balor.


----------



## lagofala (Jun 22, 2016)

Because David Arquette as champ was realistic too.


----------



## Starbuck (Apr 11, 2008)

> Balor beat Reigns in an unbelievable match that would have never happened if the fight were a shoot.


:lmao :lmao :lmao

Is he serious with this shit? Can't wait for his rant next week....and the week after....and the week after. He hates it so much yet he spends all his time ranting and bitching about it. What a fucking loser. :lol


----------



## ardahanpolat4545 (Jul 26, 2016)

It's not burying if its the truth.
NXT guy loses 2 title matches. 
Comes to Raw 
Beats 3 big names ( including the US champion ) 
Beats the guy whom was introduced as the face of the company for a while now.
These happened in the same night. 
Now has a direct ticket to a major championship.

*NAIL IN THE FRICKIN COFFIN *


----------



## NoyK (Jul 25, 2011)

T0M said:


> You only have to watch NXT to realise his promos are terrible.


*Yeah, if only most of the people claiming he has no mic skills weren't the same ones saying yesterday was the first time they've ever seen Balor, it wouldn't be as ridiculous as it is.*


----------



## FatherJackHackett (Apr 11, 2016)

Yes because David fucking Arquette winning the WCW title and Beaver Cleavage really brought credibility to the wrestling industry.

Fucking moron.


----------



## Honey Bucket (Jul 3, 2012)

'Wrestling is dead...needs more kennel from hell matches, reverse battle royals and miscarriage angles!'


----------



## RyanPelley (Jun 5, 2011)

Opinions. I do think that Russo exaggerated a bit, acting as if this was unbelievable on a "what the fuck" level. But come on. Balor countered Reigns at the end and was able to finish him off quickly. Reigns didn't even look bad in the process. If you want to talk about unbelievable matches that would never happen in a real life (which is funny enough), go back to Mysterio falling off the top rope (not even jumping) and pinning 300-400 pound guys. Now that was fucking stupid. Let's not act like it was David vs. Goliath or anything. Reigns isn't a huge dude and Finn isn't a small dude. Sure, Reigns is bigger obviously, but it's not a huge difference that should suspend one's belief. 

And all of the 'FINN IS SOOOOO BORING' shit. Fine. If that's how you feel, good on you. But at the same time, one appearance. Who the hell knows how his character is going to develop / evolve from here? Perhaps it will stay the same for the foreseeable future or maybe there's a big change coming that will have the usual inbreds flip flopping and acting like his biggest fans. And this is coming from someone who got soured pretty quickly on Finn's 'demon' deal in NXT. But that was then, this is now. Give it a freaking month or two.


----------



## Uptown King (Jul 11, 2016)

I disagree as pro wrestling is far from dead. WWE doesn't represent all of pro wrestling so that alone defeats his statements. Besides this is the same man who was one of the primary reasons why WCW went out of business as he contributed to the nail in the coffin with that company. Balor beat credible opponents in his first night and got a shot at the title. Yes he is a rookie as far as the WWE but he is a experienced vet pro wrestler who fought all over the world and beat the best. He has won multiple titles and has been world champion in multiple promotions as well. He looked good and believable in beating those guys last night and those guys losing to him did not look bad at all in defeat. And besides its awesome that afresh new face and one who has potential to be great in the WWE is giving a title shot this early. I'm pulling for the man to walk out of SS as Universal Champion.


----------



## Kabraxal (Jun 14, 2004)

Russo is a fucking moron. That Raw was actually a wrestling show with strong wrestling, commentary, and fundamental booking. If anything, Raw following the NXT style will breath new life into wrestling if it exposes more people to actual wrestling.

Russo isn't really a wrestling guy though. He is an entertainment schmuck.


----------



## birthday_massacre (Jan 30, 2013)

This was the best Raw in years and idiots Russo bury it? When Russo buries something usually that means it was good. Maybe just maybe the WWE is finally listening to its fans and giving them what they want. Because we all know that trying to push Reigns as the top guy has been a huge failure and the ratings because of him have been tanking.


----------



## jim courier (Apr 5, 2013)

birthday_massacre said:


> This was the best Raw in years and idiots Russo bury it? When Russo buries something usually that means it was good. Maybe just maybe the WWE is finally listening to its fans and giving them what they want. Because we all know that trying to push Reigns as the top guy has been a huge failure and the ratings because of him have been tanking.


WWE to gain viewers needs to appeal to the casual TV fan not the ROH/NXT work rate marks.


----------



## Erik. (Mar 17, 2014)

I can't help but feel he's just saying this to get a reaction to get more views/hits towards his blog or whatever he is doing with his spare time nowadays.

I have time for Russo, he has some good points and does share some little things he'd add to the show which would help getting some of the lesser stars over in their roles but I don't agree with him on this occasion. Whilst Balor has been boring in NXT, He has a good look, is solid in the ring and can tell a good story, if he's allowed to be more than "The Demon" for his big matches, he can get some good crossover appeal in the media too.


----------



## Kabraxal (Jun 14, 2004)

jim courier said:


> birthday_massacre said:
> 
> 
> > This was the best Raw in years and idiots Russo bury it? When Russo buries something usually that means it was good. Maybe just maybe the WWE is finally listening to its fans and giving them what they want. Because we all know that trying to push Reigns as the top guy has been a huge failure and the ratings because of him have been tanking.
> ...


And yet the style thry had used was losing all fans. NXT has shown you can thrive by being a wrestling show. CWC shows people want more wrestling. And last night's Raw will create noise that will draw more attention than "o...more shitty entertainment based bullshit".


----------



## birthday_massacre (Jan 30, 2013)

jim courier said:


> WWE to gain viewers needs to appeal to the casual TV fan not the ROH/NXT work rate marks.


The casual audience is whoever the audience cheers for. That is not Roman Reigns since he gets 90% boos every night. So with him the WWE is not listening to the causal audiience.

For the WWE to gain viewers then need to appeal to WRESTLING FANS and last tonight was a step in the right direction.


----------



## RLStern (Dec 27, 2014)

*Finn Balor has absolutely no mic skills and no character, all he does is wrestle and occasionally wear bodypaint. that does not draw.*


----------



## PlKACHU (Jun 22, 2016)

JustAName said:


> Yeah so because YOUR ignorant ass doesn't know him.. that should suddenly make him less skilled or less of a performer, right? Do people just hide their IQ somewhere in their head where they can't reach it or is it a serious brain vacuum? Guess it takes a miracle for people to see outside their tiny little squared box. You're not the center of the universe.. that YOU agree with someone does NOT necessarily make it "spot on" or correct, you're not a god I am sorry to inform you. If you or anyone else doesn't like a person/character for whatever reason, it does not mean they suck, it does not mean they're useless, it means FACTUALLY that they are not YOUR cup of tea. Some people hate small guys, some hate big guys, some tall guys, some hate high fliers, some hates heavy hitters, some hates technical wrestling. Everyone likes what they like, that's fine, but that doesn't mean they don't have talent simply because YOU don't see it.


Calm down. All I did was give my first impressions on a wrestler. Maybe he's better than I think and he'll prove me wrong, but right now I just don't see the appeal. He just seems like another generic wrestler and I'm tired of that shit. I don't think putting him straight into the RAW's main event storyline is going to help ratings either. For all the people who don't watch NXT, this guy is a nobody who they don't care about, and he's just been forced down all their throats. Why not have him debut lower on the card and actually let people get to know him before sticking him in the main event? You talk about everyone having their own opinion, but you didn't seem to like me voicing mine. :/



> A wrestling fan cares for the product, if they see good WRESTLING (which can be moves, the psychology and story telling or for some, both), performed by whoever, they enjoy it, they acknowledge it and appreciate it whether they like the person doing it or not. If a move is cool or a sequence looks awesome or a story that is told just spellbinds you, it don't matter who does it, it's just awesome. It makes it a lot more enjoyable watching wrestling when you're actually a fan of the wrestling first and foremost and not just a mark to the story or booking that goes on. When the result matter more than the match itself, and it even takes away how good a match was because it had the wrong winner... then are you really in it for the wrestling or the entertainment?


Well that's the difference between you and me. You only care about watching great matches, where as I care about great characters and storylines. A great match means nothing to me if I don't care about the wrestlers involved. That's why I won't be watching Seth Rollins vs Finn Balor at Summerslam. I have no problem admitting that I'm more in it for the entertainment than I am the wrestling, and since the WWE prides itself on being a sports entertainment company, I'm fully entitled to complain when the product isn't entertaining me.


----------



## jim courier (Apr 5, 2013)

birthday_massacre said:


> The casual audience is whoever the audience cheers for. That is not Roman Reigns since he gets 90% boos every night. So with him the WWE is not listening to the causal audiience.
> 
> For the WWE to gain viewers then need to appeal to WRESTLING FANS and last tonight was a step in the right direction.


I never mentioned Roman Reigns. Finn Balor can have as many so called 4 star spot fest fake gymnastics routine matches as he wants it's never going to bring the ratings up. WWE needs to treat there weekly shows as soap operas and save the matches for the PPV's. You need to use your weekly television shows as character and storyline development not to give the smarks in the crowd a chance to chant "this is awesome". Wrestling doesn't draw it never has and it never will at the end of the day it's 2 guys have a play fight in trunks.


----------



## Kabraxal (Jun 14, 2004)

jim courier said:


> birthday_massacre said:
> 
> 
> > The casual audience is whoever the audience cheers for. That is not Roman Reigns since he gets 90% boos every night. So with him the WWE is not listening to the causal audiience.
> ...


Trying to keep what worked 20 years ago going today is what kills companies. If you paid attention to this industry you realise that the fans' taste evolves and changes.


----------



## DOTL (Jan 3, 2012)

No one cares. His only valid point is on the New Day sketch and storytelling. 

But all those wonderful "big guys" have been Masters of Ceremonies to the biggest ratings dive in recent history. If you want realism, then you should call Vince and tell him to instal weight classes.


----------



## jim courier (Apr 5, 2013)

Kabraxal said:


> And yet the style thry had used was losing all fans. NXT has shown you can thrive by being a wrestling show. CWC shows people want more wrestling. And last night's Raw will create noise that will draw more attention than "o...more shitty entertainment based bullshit".


Dude NXT loses money if you put it on television it'd draw less than a million viewers weekly.


----------



## Kabraxal (Jun 14, 2004)

jim courier said:


> Kabraxal said:
> 
> 
> > And yet the style thry had used was losing all fans. NXT has shown you can thrive by being a wrestling show. CWC shows people want more wrestling. And last night's Raw will create noise that will draw more attention than "o...more shitty entertainment based bullshit".
> ...


 Yet it is one of the Networks top shows, it draws bigger and bigger live crowds, and is actually talked about positively.

The 90s ended 16 years ago... Time to move on already.


----------



## DOTL (Jan 3, 2012)

jim courier said:


> Dude NXT loses money if you put it on television it'd draw less than a million viewers weekly.


That's because putting on TV would be almost the same as launching a new promotion altogether.


----------



## Sincere (May 7, 2015)

> Rollins vs. Balor at SummerSlam---OH, BOY!!!


Indeed. Likely to be a fantastic match.


----------



## jim courier (Apr 5, 2013)

Disco Inferno made a great point about modern wrestling none of these guys have catchphrases or mannerisms you can copy. If 2 kids were pretending to wrestle and 1 was Zayn and 1 was Owens how would you know who is who? When I was growing up everyone was spouting NWO, Austin, Rock catchphrases. Today it's just 'I'm a wrestler and you're a wrestler let's wrestle'. It's boring crap.


----------



## Arkham258 (Jan 30, 2015)

RLStern said:


> *Finn Balor has absolutely no mic skills and no character, all he does is wrestle and occasionally wear bodypaint. that does not draw.*


If I'm being honest, I find Balor every bit as boring as Roman Reigns. And his body paint gimmick is gay. Ooooo, I'm a scary demon who talks like a goody, goody boy scout and looks like a pretty boy, underwear model. Grrrrrr, scary. 

Ugh, wrestling is going to shit. Without Punk and Bryan or GOATs like The Rock, there's just nobody really charismatic to build the company around.


----------



## Trivette (Dec 30, 2013)

Best RAW that WWE have put together in months, maybe even years. Can they keep it up? Who knows. One thing is for sure, Russo is clueless about what makes quality pro wrestling, as is evident from any of his work post-WWE. He's done nothing to help the industry in the last 20 + years. At this point, Russo's opinion rates about the same as yours or mine; just another joe shmoe with internet access and a keyboard. Let me know when he actually contributes something to the industry that's worthwhile. Until then, can the Admins ban his name from the site again?


----------



## Kabraxal (Jun 14, 2004)

jim courier said:


> Disco Inferno made a great point about modern wrestling none of these guys have catchphrases or mannerisms you can copy. If 2 kids were pretending to wrestle and 1 was Zayn and 1 was Owens how would you know who is who? When I was growing up everyone was spouting NWO, Austin, Rock catchphrases. Today it's just 'I'm a wrestler and you're a wrestler let's wrestle'. It's boring crap.


So you don't pay attention in the matches or even the entrances... That is all that post says to me.

And catchphrases don't need to exist for every wrestler.... Some guys don't need that.


----------



## blackholeson (Oct 3, 2014)

Kabraxal said:


> So you don't pay attention in the matches or even the entrances... That is all that post says to me.
> 
> And catchphrases don't need to exist for every wrestler.... Some guys don't need that.


You don't understand at all. Wrestling is fake and so to make up for that it needs things. One of the most important parts of "Entertainment" are the characters. You can't have a bunch of John Doe's running around and that's essentially what the WWE has done. Now folks like myself aren't asking for Tugboats, Mounties, Max Moon's, or Mantaurs running around the roster, but the characters on the roster these days need personality, or actual characters. We need stars like The Intellectual Savior, or Enzo Amore. These people have charisma and personalities that you won't find in the real world. That's the whole point. It's Entertainment and that's what is required. Not insulting gimmicks like Bastion Booger or Adam Bomb, or Max Moon. If you don't understand this basic concept then you are a lost cause.


----------



## RLStern (Dec 27, 2014)

Peerless said:


> I know it's Russo and all, but he makes a great point.
> 
> Balor fucking sucks. He's going to get exposed big time in the next month. The guy is boring and lacks any personality or gimmick. Don't give me the demon nonsense. If he was actually creative about it and had good acting, they could have done a split character type of gimmick, but instead, they refer it to as war paint because Balor isn't actually capable of pulling off an actual gimmick, LMFAO.
> 
> ...





Chris JeriG.O.A.T said:


> I agree with everything Russo said. You want to put over Balor and punish Reigns, fine. But why did the US Champ have to eat the pin in a match with 2 other guys in the match, neither of which have done anything worthwhile recently? The reason is they're IWC darlings and he isn't, so he's expendable in the Geek era, even though he's world champ material.
> 
> Big guys shouldn't automatically win every match but there was a time when the small guy needed something that allowed him to beat the big guy; now it's"heart" for every one of them, every single time. Apparently being a midget automatically gives you more heart and resilience than any big guy. It's horseshit.
> 
> These guys don't have any other remarkable qualities like cunning or viciousness so they win matches by getting pummeled into oblivion until the other guy gets gassed and makes a mistake, then they do their comeback sequence and hit their finisher which all together do a fraction of the punishment they took but it's enough to put away theses heart free big guys.





Peerless said:


> I know it's Russo and all, but he makes a great point.
> 
> Balor fucking sucks. He's going to get exposed big time in the next month. The guy is boring and lacks any personality or gimmick. Don't give me the demon nonsense. If he was actually creative about it and had good acting, they could have done a split character type of gimmick, but instead, they refer it to as war paint because Balor isn't actually capable of pulling off an actual gimmick, LMFAO.
> 
> ...


:applause


----------



## Kabraxal (Jun 14, 2004)

blackholeson said:


> Kabraxal said:
> 
> 
> > So you don't pay attention in the matches or even the entrances... That is all that post says to me.
> ...


Except the characters people are reacting to are those like Balor, Zayn, Cesaro, and Becky. There is obviously enough character to draw good reactions for all these people, but all I hear from clear Attitude Era marks is 20 year old refrains that lost their merit over a decade ago. 

What you are saying no longer matches up to reality.


----------



## Sincere (May 7, 2015)

jim courier said:


> Disco Inferno made a great point about modern wrestling none of these guys have catchphrases or mannerisms you can copy.


"How you doin'?"
"S-A-W-F-T. SAWFT!"
"And you can't teach that."
"You can't see me."
"Wooooo!"
"Straightfiya!"
"Fight KO Fight!"
"Headlock Master"
"Chinlock Island"
"The gift of Jericho. Drink it in, man."
"Stupid idiot"
"Perro"
"Are you not entertained?!"
"I'm the Boss"
"____ Don't you dare be sour..."
"New Day rocks"

and on, and on... I'll grant you that Zayn doesn't have any signature catchphrase, but people do give him "ole" chants.

But yeah, none of these guys have mannerisms or catchphrases :eyeroll

Do you even watch the product?


----------



## jim courier (Apr 5, 2013)

Sincere said:


> "How you doin'?"
> "S-A-W-F-T. SAWFT!"
> "And you can't teach that."
> "You can't see me."
> ...


Enzo is one of the few guys that gets it I actually endorse him. Jericho has been around since the late 90's so he doesn't count.


----------



## Sincere (May 7, 2015)

jim courier said:


> Enzo is one of the few guys that gets it I actually endorse him. Jericho has been around since the late 90's so he doesn't count.


And... everyone else who all have catchphrases and mannerisms of various types to varying degrees?

Or are you going to make exceptions for all of them, too, and still try to claim no one has catchphrases and mannerisms?


----------



## Dgario Stringfield (Jul 27, 2015)

I agree with him not necessarily because of balor.I agree with decision of have a new face challenge for the wwe uni. Title but why not Owens or zayn I can't understand it.Both guys have a way bigger fan base and have put on a great match at battleground why not reward one for it.

On the balor side why would they do this to him?what do I mean...

Familiar case

Wade Barrett 
Del Rio
And sheamus 

3 guys they pushed to the moon without letting them established themselves to the fans.


----------



## FearlessNikki (Aug 27, 2014)

blackholeson said:


> You don't understand at all. Wrestling is fake and so to make up for that it needs things. One of the most important parts of "Entertainment" are the characters. You can't have a bunch of John Doe's running around and that's essentially what the WWE has done. Now folks like myself aren't asking for Tugboats, Mounties, Max Moon's, or Mantaurs running around the roster, but the characters on the roster these days need personality, or actual characters. We need stars like The Intellectual Savior, or Enzo Amore. These people have charisma and personalities that you won't find in the real world. That's the whole point. It's Entertainment and that's what is required. Not insulting gimmicks like Bastion Booger or Adam Bomb, or Max Moon. If you don't understand this basic concept then you are a lost cause.


Good luck trying to talk wrestling sense to Kabraxal. This is a guy that thinks psychology is how many kicks you can do :lmao


----------



## virus21 (Sep 22, 2009)

So Balor beating Reigns and Rusev is the death of the business, according to Russo. Hey Russo, remember when you thought this was a good idea?


----------



## ellthom (May 2, 2011)

mmm those Russo tears... om nom nom


----------



## RLStern (Dec 27, 2014)

Kabraxal said:


> Except the characters people are reacting to are those like Balor, Zayn, Cesaro, and Becky. There is obviously enough character to draw good reactions for all these people, but all I hear from clear Attitude Era marks is 20 year old refrains that lost their merit over a decade ago.
> 
> What you are saying no longer matches up to reality.


*
They have no characters and they're not drawing.

And why are you mentioning tthe Attitude era and 20 years ago??

Modern times you had great characters & storylines such as Triple H's Authority Boss Character, Daniel Bryan, The Shield gimmick, The Rock, etc

So it isn't about 20 years ago, it's about 2 years, because 2 years ago we had characters, we had great matches because of characters and storylines and not workrate, we had great storylines.

We had Daniel Bryan, Rock, Heel Triple H, The Shield, great characters and storylines.

Now what?

Finn Balor who has absolutely no character. this NXT workrate movement(which is a disgrace to the original NXT that featured Bryan, Rusev, Wyatt Family) that has been going on since mid 2015 is destroying the business.*


----------



## Bojack (Jun 7, 2016)

Ah. I see all the usual workrate/indy marks have come in to run wild with Russo's words.

Same tired lines of "lulz realism in wrestling". Russo does not have an issue with the whole smaller guy beating the larger competitor. He has an issue in this situation because it's a smaller guy who has no special factor or build up of credibility to win over the names he went over. 90% of the auidence doesn't even know who the fuck he is. Makes no sense to hotshot him up the card. But it's okay. Keep attacking Russo's creative past for an argument if it makes you feel better.


----------



## themuel1 (Feb 19, 2004)

Can someone please define what a "casual" is now and also what constitutes the "IWC" now? Does twitter count? Facebook? If so, WWE actively engage with the IWC. The IWC are the fucking people that listen to Russo's shit shows!!! Do casuals have the WWE network? Do they watch NXT? I'm curious. What is a modern day casual because it always feels like Russo is comparing his era to the modern day and it's so different now.

A guy beating two bigger guys in one night ruins wrestling huh? Didn't Daniel Bryan do that....? Jericho?


----------



## Klorel (Jun 15, 2013)

Can we ban Russo's name again?


----------



## J-B (Oct 26, 2015)

If Russo cares so much for the soap opera side of wrestling and bangs on about wrestling not being the drawing factor then why doesn't he piss off and watch stuff like TWD, Game of thrones, Breaking Bad etc? Wrestlers are usually pretty bad actors on top of that.


----------



## Jersey (Jun 24, 2014)

Why is he copying the OG Jim Cornette?


----------



## blackholeson (Oct 3, 2014)

themuel1 said:


> Can someone please define what a "casual" is now and also what constitutes the "IWC" now? Does twitter count? Facebook? If so, WWE actively engage with the IWC. The IWC are the fucking people that listen to Russo's shit shows!!! Do casuals have the WWE network? Do they watch NXT? I'm curious. What is a modern day casual because it always feels like Russo is comparing his era to the modern day and it's so different now.
> 
> A guy beating two bigger guys in one night ruins wrestling huh? Didn't Daniel Bryan do that....? Jericho?


Daniel Bryan was already something special. Did you miss the "Yes movement?". There was a legit build to Bryan's push. Jericho was a top name when he defeated The Rock and Austin in the same night. It was a move that made sense because he is one of the all time greats. It was the WWE who essentially put Jericho in the position that was placed in years ago. Otherwise he would just be some mid card guy who we'd be making threads about how he should have been WWE Champion.


----------



## ChiTownExtreme (Jun 2, 2015)

I pretty much agree with every bullet point Russo made. He see's the larger picture, and unfortunately if you are someone who doesn't, then you are just one of those people who will watch no matter how many times you have your face shoved in shit.


----------



## Pure_Dynamite12 (Nov 3, 2015)

hou713 said:


> That was during a time where his opponents knew nothing about defending BJJ
> 
> his skill advantage was much, much larger than his size disadvantage which is very rare
> 
> ...


Your Jones/Aldo comparison is irrelevant, because they are both trained. That's the point I'm trying to make.

If you think size is a massive factor, you know very little about martial arts. Judo, catch wrestling, bjj, all were created specifically for that reason. Helio Gracie was tiny, but completely dominated guys who walked around at 230 pounds. Rickson Gracie was 190, but beat guys who weighed 300 pounds. It doesn't matter if he's once in a generation, or one in a million, or one on a team of fifty just as good, his skill will matter.

Hell, I've taken down and submitted by a girl who was twenty kilos lighter than me and seven inches shorter. All because she was trained and I wasn't.

Skill is a factor against an untrained guy. Finn is trained, Reigns is not. Hence it is a factor. Case closed.


----------



## Marv95 (Mar 9, 2011)

LOL you people bashing Russo STILL don't get it. 

Put yourself in the shoes of the casual fan, something they drove off. They know it's fake and it's entertainment. The issue is there is still a ring with matches, rules and a ref. Therefore they gotta make it at least somewhat believable. You can do that in several ways, including gimmicking it up. If Balor had an actual demon GIMMICK instead of dressing up like one for no reason, no selling stuff and acting like a *monster*, someone(non-smarks) can believe he can cleanly pin the likes of Rusev and Reigns on the same night despite his size. If Balor cheated/had help like Jericho did at Vengeance 2001 then someone can buy into it. But nope; 5 foot schmuck with no character or build comes in and beats two studs.


----------



## Darkness is here (Mar 25, 2014)

Well what he said was right but this is the company that let someone like Bryan beat 3 of their biggest stars in the past decade in one single night "clean."


----------



## tducey (Apr 12, 2011)

Or it could be called creating a new star right away something the WWE has been needed to do for years. Russo's out to lunch here.


----------



## Kabraxal (Jun 14, 2004)

Marv95 said:


> LOL you people bashing Russo STILL don't get it.
> 
> Put yourself in the shoes of the casual fan, something they drove off. They know it's fake and it's entertainment. The issue is there is still a ring with matches, rules and a ref. Therefore they gotta make it at least somewhat believable. You can do that in several ways, including gimmicking it up. If Balor had an actual demon GIMMICK instead of dressing up like one for no reason, no selling stuff and acting like a *monster*, someone(non-smarks) can believe he can cleanly pin the likes of Rusev and Reigns on the same night despite his size. If Balor cheated/had help like Jericho did at Vengeance 2001 then someone can buy into it. But nope; 5 foot schmuck with no character or build comes in and beats two studs.


Or maybe people don't give a shit about size anymore.


----------



## RLStern (Dec 27, 2014)

Darkness is here said:


> Well what he said was right but this is the company that let someone like Bryan beat 3 of their biggest stars in the past decade in one single night "clean."


*That worked, as Daniel Bryan became a megastar, surpassed those of the Ruthless Aggression era(another workrate era that WWE is trying to copy right now with it's brand split), and actually got mainstream attention that everyone other than Cena lacked, Bryan had character, mic skills, charisma, catchphrase, unique look(Like all megadraws do, No megadraw looks like the audience, Rock, Mankind, Hogan, Bryan all look larger than life)

Whereas Finn Balor has the generic underwear model look, no mic skills, no charisma, no storyline, nothing, just a guy who wrestlers with or without facepaint, hasn't drawn huge like Rock or Daniel Bryan, therefore does not warrant such a win.*


----------



## jayenomics (Jan 26, 2014)

Russo sounds salty AF.

Raw was fantastic last night.


----------



## THANOS (Jun 20, 2006)

Russo can suck a big mean Cock.


----------



## Lothario (Jan 17, 2015)

Russo is the same man that attempted to push Tank Abbot as WCW champ. I thoroughly enjoyed RAW and Kayfabe -- and reality -- wise, Finn is more seasoned than Reigns. He's been doing this a *lot* longer and Roman isn't the size of Big Show. He's actually nowhere near as bulky as they pretend "The Powerhouse" is.


Furthermore, UFC has show numerous of times that size is not the determining factor. It isn't the 80s anymore. Most importantly, Reigns is being *punished* for violating Vince's trust two months after pinning his son in law and future HoFer in HHH -- the biggest heel of the last 15 years -- at Wrestlemania for the WWE title. He *should* lose and put over talent. Talent spent two years doing the same for him and he spit in their face in return and rendered it meaningless in two months because much like his fans felt, he himself felt he was teflon. It's much better he put over Finn than Curtis Axel in a squash, because if Vince _truly_ wanted to bury him, it would and could be a lot worse. You should be thanking Vince for clearly being merciful and opting to job him out in the main event to talent he sees money in and not guys who won't be employed by him this time next year.


If you're Russo who gets paid to complain, then yeah, you'll be bitter no matter what. 


If you're a fan of Roman's and puffed your chest out about "vocal minorities" and Reigns being "the guy" then yeah, it's going to be a rough six months for you. Like Booker said, humble pie. Wallow and swallow.


The show must go on though and it will. RAW was great and I'm looking forward to Smackdown.


----------



## MajinTrunks (Jun 22, 2008)

what a fucking tool


----------



## chronoxiong (Apr 1, 2005)

I usually agree with Russo but not this one. Very shocked he felt Reigns should've squashed Balor. I mean, I do get it because Reigns has the height and weight advantage over him. But Russo was the guy who booked Arquette to win the WCW World Title and pushed Jeff Jarrett to the top during the New Blood Era so I'm not agreeing with him this time.


----------



## Stephen90 (Mar 31, 2015)

Russo on making David Arquette champion: Don't they understand that it's fake.
But having Finn Balor as number one is too unrealistic. Dude is a total moron.


----------



## PunjabiPrisoner (Jun 21, 2016)

I agree with him mostly, although I don't like the Balor/Rusev comparison, which seems to be nothing more than a dig at the idea of Russo's interpretation of smaller guys being pushed. I don't regularly follow Russo's opinions, so am not sure if that is an accurate judgement of his views but it's how that particular comment reads. The Reigns comment seems to have a similar intention although I think it unintentionally highlighted an issue, which @Peerless and ChrisJeriG.O.A.T addressed well in their posts, that size does matter in terms of how you book the smaller guys to win.


----------



## Oxidamus (Jan 30, 2012)

Fuck Balor.

Can't believe people like the guy after his stint in NXT. Goes over Rusev AND Reigns. I guess nothing is going to be different. :jim


----------



## Mister Sinister (Aug 7, 2013)

I'm down for indy jobbers being used but the matches should be more than outright squashes.

Balor on the other hand is cardboard and cruiserweight. Why not get the cruiserweight division running immediately with the cruiserweights they have on the payroll already (Balor, Neville, Aries, Kalisto) and then bring up the CWC signings after the series wraps up. This is madness.


----------



## Super Sexy Steele (Aug 16, 2002)

WalkingInMemphis said:


> He seems to have quite the short memory, eh?


To Vince, that was probably a good thing for wrestling, not a bad thing. LOL


----------



## Vic Capri (Jun 7, 2006)

Russo doesn't like NXT so of course he buries Balor. He wants bigger men, more charisma from talent, and more storylines.



> Can someone please define what a "casual" is now and also what constitutes the "IWC" now?


Casual - People just watch the show here and there. Probably thinks its real. Doesn't give a shit about the backstage stuff.

IWC - Everybody on this board.

- Vic


----------



## SpeedStick (Feb 11, 2010)

You could agree with Russo if the WWE still care about basic tv , but everything WWE does now its all about the WWE network


----------



## birthday_massacre (Jan 30, 2013)

blackholeson said:


> Daniel Bryan was already something special. Did you miss the "Yes movement?". There was a legit build to Bryan's push. Jericho was a top name when he defeated The Rock and Austin in the same night. It was a move that made sense because he is one of the all time greats. It was the WWE who essentially put Jericho in the position that was placed in years ago. Otherwise he would just be some mid card guy who we'd be making threads about how he should have been WWE Champion.



Finn Balor is one of the biggest names in wrestling, just because YOU dont know his past doesn't mean he is not a huge name. He was a huge deal in New Japan.

Balor is one of the best wrestlers on the roster and he has tons of charisma if they would let him go full heel like he was in New Japan.


----------



## RLStern (Dec 27, 2014)

birthday_massacre said:


> Finn Balor is one of the biggest names in wrestling, just because YOU dont know his past doesn't mean he is not a huge name. He was a huge deal in New Japan.
> 
> Balor is one of the best wrestlers on the roster and he has tons of charisma if they would let him go full heel like he was in New Japan.


*

Yet in the United States where the WWE is based he's not a draw with the Mainstream Audience, only the niche.*


----------



## birthday_massacre (Jan 30, 2013)

RLStern said:


> *
> 
> Yet in the United States where the WWE is based he's not a draw with the Mainstream Audience, only the niche.*


WTF are you talking about, he was one of the most popular guys on NXT and he got a huge pop for his debut on raw.

As for him being a draw or not, pretty sure his merch sells very well and he has not even been on the roster for more than one show, yet are you going to claim he is not a draw yet.


----------



## greasykid1 (Dec 22, 2015)

Why does anyone bother listening to Russo? Or even care about anything he says?

Not only has he proven himself over and over as having no more fucking idea about wrestling than any average IWC member, but he's also booked and been involved in some of the most pathetic and damaging angles in pro wrestling history.

Seriously, he needs to just shut up.

The blatant trolling is nothing but a cry for attention from a sad, irrelevant old man.


----------



## JTB33b (Jun 26, 2007)

Russo is also the one who said Owens with his look would never get over on the main roster.


----------



## Draykorinee (Aug 4, 2015)

finn fucking Balor...I can agree with Russo on this, pandering to the IWC at its worst.


----------



## swagger_ROCKS (Jun 5, 2010)

I don't agree about the size thing. But I do agree with the way the match went down. Finn vs Roman was flat as hell. Roman was booked like a monster in 2015 and almost beat Brock, only to lose in a match that was as flat as Rio vs Cena against Finn Balor. The match should have been a shoot. Even Joe fucked Finn up in ring wise than whatever Roman was doing in this match with Finn.

Also :lol if that's what Steph really did at the beginning of the show.


----------



## HBShizzle (Jul 26, 2016)

100% spot on by Russo, the guy is a troll and loud annoying idiot but when it comes to logic when booking simple pro wrestling. It's spot on. 

WWE has lost the foundations of what made it great and what it was built on. Now it's an indie show. 

Balor does not draw, Sunny boy got a bigger reaction than him. NXT got positive reactions from the sheets and the hardcore base. That is not a draw, a draw is someone who appeals to the masses and sells out ppvs. Cena is a draw. Balor should be built on the main show, become US champion and tested as a draw. Just like the way Cena was.

I have no problem with Balor as a athlete but when he appeared on raw he was a nobody to me because I've youtubed him once or twice and now he beats superman reigns clean? No logic, no build up, no effort. Some guy from the network beat their top guy clean on raw. It doesn't matter if you like reigns or not or because you think Balor deserves it which is a load of rubbish. Reigns was booked incredibly strong for a while and now he gets beat by a nobody clean.

Balor is a somebody to people who go out of their way to find him, the hardcore fan base. He is a nobody to me who doesn't invest money into the network and just wants to try stay in the loop and follows results. You could say that's my fault for not being invested and giving these guys a chance. But why? When UFC and game of thrones and a heck of a lot more stuff is more interesting and I'd argue tv shows like game of thrones is more their competition. Because wwe is make believe fantasy and not a sport.

Pro wrestling ain't dead, wwe has just accepted that it no longer interests the masses. It has its network and the hardcore fan base and they are earning money. They will never ever go mainstream again with the current product. I think Russo needs to accept this.

It's like comic books and the hardcore fan base are comic book nerds. Comics books were never seen as a cool thing mainstream. As soon as they are put into the mainstream and made into Hollywood movies with big larger than life actors then it's cool. Comic books are now seen as cool.

That's not a bad thing for the hardcore fan base who are investing time into wwe, it's just Russos opinion that it's ruining what wrestling could potentially be if it was seen as larger than life again. Which I tend to agree.

My favourite wrestler of all time is HBK, he couldnt to do half the crap that these guys do in the ring today but he could make you believe in him and he could work the crowd. He was breathtaking at that, he was a great actor and worker of the crowd. He didn't need spots, he didn't need a high impact fast paced move set. He had them in the palm of their hands with his emotion and selling. That is what made him special as a 'small guy'. None of these guys have that, that's what made flair, hbk and others work in a big man environment. They work the scenario, big man little man. The Rock Vs Hogan will always be a better match than say a Owens vs Zayn to me. Why because you are so invested into these larger than life characters and every little thing matters. Like hogan flexing his muscles is enough to make the crowd go crazy. Not a spot saying this is awesome. You mix the Hbks with the larger than life great showmen like Hogan and Rock then you have a wrestling show. 

I apologise for the rant... Ah well.


----------



## CMPunkRock316 (Jan 17, 2016)

Russo is a retard.

I have been hugely critical of WWE especially the past 2+ years. RAW last night to me was better than it has been in awhile. Matches that actually meant something. Sasha winning the Women's Title in a classic women's match. WWE has been promising New Era and frankly if it ended with Reigns winning that is same old shit. I really expected Reigns to beat Balor in a competitive match. Talk about how on his Main Roster debut he took Roman to the limit. I also expected Charlotte to not drop the belt until Summerslam. 

Russo has been right on in the past with his criticism of WWE programming but bitching because a debuting Balor beat Rusev in a Fatal Fourway and beating Roman "I never deserved the spot I had" Reigns in the main event is dumb. Balor has had "star" in the making since early on in his NXT days.


----------



## HBShizzle (Jul 26, 2016)

CancelWWENetwork said:


> Russo is a retard.
> 
> I have been hugely critical of WWE especially the past 2+ years. RAW last night to me was better than it has been in awhile. Matches that actually meant something. Sasha winning the Women's Title in a classic women's match. WWE has been promising New Era and frankly if it ended with Reigns winning that is same old shit. I really expected Reigns to beat Balor in a competitive match. Talk about how on his Main Roster debut he took Roman to the limit. I also expected Charlotte to not drop the belt until Summerslam.
> 
> Russo has been right on in the past with his criticism of WWE programming but bitching because a debuting Balor beat Rusev in a Fatal Fourway and beating Roman "I never deserved the spot I had" Reigns in the main event is dumb. Balor has had "star" in the making since early on in his NXT days.


The problem is that this is a make believe world. Reigns may not of deserved that spot as a professional but he was in that spot as a character, you go with that. It doesn't matter if he deserved it or not. It's like saying ah man, that actor on that tv show sucks, they should recast him! They went with reigns being incredibly strong and had someone come up from their developmental show go over him clean. If you can find the logic in that then I just don't know. I think that's the point Russo is trying to make.

These guys are actors, not sports stars in real competition. The day WWE goes back to the characters, storylines and larger than life wrestlers with logical booking it will become great again now I just feel they are way too far down the line now to change that when you have people in the crowd chanting you can't wrestle to their top actor/performer. No casual fan wants to be apart of this, it's cringeworthy. Though it doesn't help when the product has been poor for years so it's WWEs own fault when it comes to backlash. The difference is the casual turns the tv off and hardcore fans protest. They realised they can't get the casual back so they have thrown in the towel and listened to the protests of the hardcore fan base. 

It's all stemmed from the booking of Roman Reigns, I don't care what anyone says. That guy is money when booked right. He should of gone through half the roster as a big monster, instead they booked him as a Cena.


----------



## kariverson (Jan 28, 2014)

Russo is kind of right though.


----------



## A-C-P (Jan 5, 2010)

RLStern said:


> *
> 
> Yet in the United States where the WWE is based he's not a draw with the Mainstream Audience, only the niche.*


There is no "mainstream" audience for the WWE anymore (or at least not one that is big enough to really matter) and that audience is NEVER coming back to the WWE as long as it resembles ANYTHING close to pro-wrestling.

WWE is a niche product in America now, its a HUGE niche, but a niche none-the-less the future of the WWE is going to be brighter if they look to maximize interest from the large niche audience they can still attract more so than trying to chase a group of people that are never going to be their consumers, no matter what. And it actually looks like they are starting to get it, I mean the Network, a 24/7 network dedicated to pro-wrestling, who do you think that is for, not "casual fans"

Problem with the WWE the last # of years is they have half-assed it on both ends trying to appeal to "everyone" and in return appealing to no-one really and the hardcore fans are all they have left now. It looks to me like they are now taking steps to at least bring the wrestling fans back and trying less to chase those old "casuals" that they are never getting back.


----------



## CenaBoy4Life (Jul 31, 2013)

Can we get a ban on Vince Russo opinion threads?


----------



## CactusSack (Oct 25, 2015)

I take his point about Balor's entrance.

Everything else....

Things change


----------



## southrnbygrace (Jun 14, 2014)

He liked Smackdown though.


----------



## DoubleA (Nov 5, 2015)

Buries? Do you people even know what that means?


----------



## Reotor (Jan 8, 2016)

Given how muchhe hated RAW I would LOVE to know what his opinion on Smackdown:grin2:
Is there anything about this?


----------



## chronoxiong (Apr 1, 2005)

CenaBoy4Life said:


> Can we get a ban on Vince Russo opinion threads?


Were you around when Vince Russo's name was banned on this forum for a week or so two years ago? It was hilarious.


----------



## RLStern (Dec 27, 2014)

A-C-P said:


> There is no "mainstream" audience for the WWE anymore (or at least not one that is big enough to really matter) and that audience is NEVER coming back to the WWE as long as it resembles* ANYTHING* close to pro-wrestling.


*That's not true, the 80s resembled Pro-Wrestling, drew huge, Late 90s/Early 2000's resembled Pro-Wrestling, Drew huge. They were wrestling fans, the reason why they're not watching is simple, we're getting a more amateur style wrestling than Professional Wrestling, which involves storylines and characters.*



A-C-P said:


> WWE is a niche product in America now,


*The WWE chooses to be geared towards the niche, which is bad for business, as that demographic barely exists(hence failure of the indies)*



A-C-P said:


> its a HUGE niche,


*It's not, the ratings are very poor. if that specific indy/workrate audience was huge, the indies would be huge.*



A-C-P said:


> but a niche none-the-less the future of the WWE is going to be brighter if they look to maximize interest from the large niche audience they can still attract more so than trying to chase a group of people that are never going to be their consumers, no matter what.


*
The Mainstream Audience is the draw, not those who Casually watch or the Workrate/Indy Marks, but the Actual Paying Loyal Audience who would watch week to week like they during the 80s and the Attitude era, the Actual Wrestling fans who want Great Sports Entertainment and won't stand for a less quality Workrate show with no storyline and characters
*


A-C-P said:


> And it actually looks like they are starting to get it, I mean the Network, a 24/7 network dedicated to pro-wrestling, who do you think that is for, not "casual fans"


*And not workrate marks, as much of the Network has Classic and Non-Wrestling shows on it, the main draw of it is the libarary and cheap PPV's.

Put the current product on regular PPV watch how it would get even worse.

You seem to confuse Sport Entertainment fans for Casual Viewers and Workrate marks for Diehards, which is wrong. the Sports Entertainment fan is the most loyal fanbase you can ever have, they didn't just "casually" watch the show, they watched Raw Is War and Smackdown EVERY week during the Attitude era, they were diehard fans, they bought merch, ppvs, went to shows, etc.*



A-C-P said:


> Problem with the WWE the last # of years is they have half-assed it on both ends trying to appeal to "everyone"


*
You're supposed to appeal to everyone, it's not hard, look at the 80s, look at the Attitude era. they had something for everyone, guys like Rock, Triple H, Mankind appealed to all demographics, Adults, Teens, Kids, even though geared towards adults, likewise Hulk Hogan, Randy Savage, Roddy Piper appealed to all demographics, Adults, Teens, Kids, and yet it was geared towards Kids. 
*


A-C-P said:


> and in return appealing to no-one really and the hardcore fans are all they have left now. It looks to me like they are now taking steps to at least bring the wrestling fans back and trying less to chase those old "casuals" that they are never getting back.


*
What do you mean wrestling fans?

Whoever is a fan of Sports Entertainment is a Professional Wrestling Fan, only those who dislike storylines and characters aren't Professional Wrestling Fans, as Professional Wrestling for more than 100 years has involved characters, if you want no characters or storylines go to your local high school gym and watch amateurs.
*


----------



## A-C-P (Jan 5, 2010)

RLStern said:


> *That's not true, the 80s resembled Pro-Wrestling, drew huge, Late 90s/Early 2000's resembled Pro-Wrestling, Drew huge. They were wrestling fans, the reason why they're not watching is simple, we're getting a more amateur style wrestling than Professional Wrestling, which involves storylines and characters.*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


All you keep saying is look at the 80s and 90's....Thats at least 20 years ago now. Times have changed. Pro-Wrestling or Sports Entertainment or whatever you want to call it (b/c I do not separate the 2, they are the same thing) is a NICHE product now, and is NOT going to EVER appeal to the "mainstream" audience again, not sure why this is so hard for people, like you, who are stuck in this past mindset from 20 years ago to understand. There is a finite # of wrestling fans/sports entertainment fans out there in the US/The World for the WWE to draw in, and the WWE needs to maximize that audience NOT drive them away trying to chase customers that are NEVER going to be their customer again.

And do not start throwing that awful indy/workrate mark term at me b/c that is not even close to what I am talking about the WWE needing to appeal to most. Seriously what is this "mainstream" audience you think the WWE needs to appeal to? Where are they? Who are they? And if its even possible to bring in that audience again (spoiler alert: it's not possible as long as WWE is pro-wrestling/sports entertainment) what can they actually do to even bring in that audience?

Don't bother answering those questions btw, b/c any answers you give will be wrong b/c there are no answers to those questions. B/c the answer to the first question: Is there potential for the WWE to ever be totally "mainstream" again? is NO. Seriously, The Rock, probably the biggest "mainstream" star ever produced by the WWE can't even bring much (if any) of that "mainstream" audience back to the product when he comes back.

WWE, sports entertainment, pro-wrestling, whatever you want to call it is NOT a mainstream entertainment product anymore, and it never will be again. Again this is not special to the WWE, its the way the entertainment industry is going, there are fewer and fewer things that are "mainstream" in entertainment each passing year as more options keep becoming available. Everything in entertainment (outside of a few things) are becoming "niche" by definition. Companies that are succeeding in these now "niche" areas are the companies that have embraced it and maximized the profits out of their niche audience. And with the size of the niche that exists for the WWE, they can be plenty profitable doing the same. 

And thee WWE is starting to do this. The WWE Network is a great example of them embracing their niche audience, b/c that service is trying directly to appeal to their loyal audience, b/c you sure as hell aren't selling a 24/7 on demand sports entertainment network to a "casual" "mainstream" fan.


----------



## Yashamaga (Sep 19, 2014)

I agree with alot of what Russo has said in the last few years about the awfulness of the product, but he's way off here. I was actually kind of suprised that he didn't agree with the general consensus that Raw was pretty damn good this past Monday. IMO it was the best Raw in a VERY long time. Like years. 

He also went on to say smackdown was the better show and I don't really get why seeing as how SD was kinda more or less the same as the WWE has been the last handful of years.


----------



## just1988 (Jun 15, 2009)

*Damn, Russo is such a douche. Vince Douche'o*


----------



## RLStern (Dec 27, 2014)

A-C-P said:


> All you keep saying is look at the 80s and 90's....Thats at least 20 years ago now.


*You claimed that THAT audience won't ever come back if it resembles ANYTHING close to Pro Wrestling:*



A-C-P said:


> There is no "mainstream" audience for the WWE anymore (or at least not one that is big enough to really matter) and that audience is NEVER coming back to the WWE as long as it resembles* ANYTHING* close to pro-wrestling.


*Thus, 80's and 90's prove you wrong as that surely resembled Wrestling, so that audience who left would come back, they never had a problem with anything resembling wrestling, so that claim is refuted.*



A-C-P said:


> Times have changed. Pro-Wrestling or Sports Entertainment or whatever you want to call it (b/c I do not separate the 2, they are the same thing) is a NICHE product now, and is NOT going to EVER appeal to the "mainstream" audience again,


*Why isn't it going to appeal to the mainstream audience? Because you say so?

The Professional Wrestling genre has never been niche, they have been capable of reaching high ratings of 8's and 9's, just because today's wrestling sucks and people refuse to watch it, doesn't mean the genre is niche. 

And Of course it can appeal to the Mainstream audience, Simply write it and book it the way the Mainstream audience wants it with Storylines and Characters and they'll come back, the reason they're not coming back now is because of the workrate bullshit.*



A-C-P said:


> not sure why this is so hard for people, like you, who are stuck in this past mindset from 20 years ago to understand. There is a finite # of wrestling fans/sports entertainment fans out there in the US/The World for the WWE to draw in, and the WWE needs to maximize that audience NOT drive them away trying to chase customers that are NEVER going to be their customer again.


*There is a Huge number of Sports Entertaiment(Wrestling) fans out there, thing is they're not watching because they're not getting Professional Wrestling(Where Storylines and Characters are a standard)*



A-C-P said:


> And do not start throwing that awful indy/workrate mark term at me b/c that is not even close to what I am talking about the WWE needing to appeal to most. Seriously what is this "mainstream" audience you think the WWE needs to appeal to? Where are they? Who are they?
> 
> And if its even possible to bring in that audience again (spoiler alert: it's not possible as long as WWE is pro-wrestling/sports entertainment)


*So you can't bring back an audience back Again that left because it resembles Pro Wrestling? When they were WATCHING when it was Pro Wrestling?

Your argument makes absolutely no sense.*



A-C-P said:


> what can they actually do to even bring in that audience?


*Have compelling Storylines and Characters, people have short attention span(even SHORTER than the Attitude era where Russo was forced to put out nonstop segments to keep the viewer), if you don't entertain, the person will watch something else to satisfy their boredom.
*


A-C-P said:


> Don't bother answering those questions btw, b/c any answers you give will be wrong b/c there are no answers to those questions.


:ha 



A-C-P said:


> B/c the answer to the first question: Is there potential for the WWE to ever be totally "mainstream" again? is NO. Seriously, The Rock, probably the biggest "mainstream" star ever produced by the WWE can't even bring much (if any) of that "mainstream" audience back to the product when he comes back.


*
He actually does, because of him Wrestlemania sold a million buys again, before that they weren't doing so well.*



A-C-P said:


> WWE, sports entertainment, pro-wrestling, whatever you want to call it is NOT a mainstream entertainment product anymore, and it never will be again.


*
Why won't it ever be again? you're claiming this without any proof.*



A-C-P said:


> And thee WWE is starting to do this. The WWE Network is a great example of them embracing their niche audience, b/c that service is trying directly to appeal to their loyal audience, b/c you sure as hell aren't selling a 24/7 on demand sports entertainment network to a "casual" "mainstream" fan.


*That's the dishonesty right there, Labelling the Mainstream fan as "Casual"

The Mainstream fans are NEVER casual, once you have them you will keep them unless you drive them away with poor quality shows. the MAINSTREAM fans were the ones watching EVERY WEEK during the Wrestling booms, they are the most loyal and honest fans in the world, they buy the most merch, go to shows, tune in, give organic reactions, not Casual viewers, not Workrate marks, the Mainstream is the Diehard World Wrestling Federation Entertainment fan.

During the Attitude era and Hulkamania, their huge viewership didn't "casually" watch, they were Diehard, they watched every single week for years and years. this "casual" term needs to go.


The mainstream isn't watching because they aren't diehard fans, they're not watching BECAUSE they are diehard fans, they're showing WWE that they won't watch that crappy show, they're not coming back until you have compelling storylines and characters, they're teaching WWE a lesson, yet WWE is being stubborn, When the Mainstream audience gave the WWF the 'silent treatment' so to say, they changed, now they're being stubborn to their audience that is willing to give them another wrestling boom(especially in this day and age, with the technology and ease of it we should've had the biggest wrestling boom of all time so far, instead we don't because of crappy storylines, no characters and a focus on workrate)

The mainstream audience will reward you when you give them something good(Ex, Rock's return, Daniel Bryan), 

So long as WWE keeps refusing to give in to the Mainstream's demand of less workrate and more character/storylines, the mainstream will simply not watch, WWE won't draw and the mainstream diehards will continue to watch old wrestling.*


----------



## Hyphen (Oct 26, 2014)

If Russo came out and said that a debuting guy beating a main eventer is a bit off I could have agreed with him but when he says a small guy beating a bigger guy means the end of wrestling I get seriously confused. Did he completely forget about all the smaller technical wrestlers like Jericho, Benoit, Eddie and especially Rey winning world titles? Did he forget about Rey beating Nash in WCW? Does he now know about actual real life fights where guys who are well below 200 pounds beat huge guys because of technique being more important than power?


----------



## A-C-P (Jan 5, 2010)

RLStern said:


> *You claimed that THAT audience won't ever come back if it resembles ANYTHING close to Pro Wrestling:*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Again the 80's and 90's were 20-30 years ago, things are DIFFERENT now, the entire environment of the entertainment industry is different. Things that worked in the 80s and 90's are not going to work now. And the biggest difference between the 80's and 90's to now, is that Pro-wrestling does not have the negative "stigma" in the "main stream" it has now. You keep saying Rock's return and Daniel Bryan's WM run prove me wrong but they really, they really prove me right. Those were the 2 hottest things the WWE has done since the very early 2000s and they increased business short-term yes, but did not really move the needles that much, if you look at those 2 things as the CEILING of what the WWE can do nowadays, b/c that is really what the ceiling is now.

Not sure how else I can explain this to you. All those "mainstream" fans that used to exist that you think the WWE can get back are gone. Between WWE turning crap for a good # of years (in their minds), to the rise in popularity of MMA killing people's interest in Pro-wrestling/sports entertainment, to their just being WAY more entertainment options out there nowadays, to a LONG list of other reasons there are millions of "old fans" than are NEVER going to be fans again, just b/c they were fans in the 80's and 90s doesn't automatically mean they will be again in certain things happen. The WWE has been trying to copy the AE and RA eras for YEARS now, and it hasn't worked.

In the end we all want the same thing, better shows. Now better shows mean different things to different people. And for the WWE maximizing the profits out of the sports entertainment/pro wrestling fans out there and getting ALL of them back first should be their focus. B/c with a niche product (like the WWE is now) you have to please your niche group first before you can start trying to grow that niche. Right now the WWE is no where NEAR pleasing their existing possible audience.


----------



## RLStern (Dec 27, 2014)

A-C-P said:


> Again the 80's and 90's were 20-30 years ago, things are DIFFERENT now, the entire environment of the entertainment industry is different.


*
Storylines and Characters aren't a thing of the 80's and 90's, it universal, regardless of timeperiod as long as the stories and characters relate to the current eras pop culture. you say things work differently, that stories and characters don't draw the mainstream audience, where's your proof?*



A-C-P said:


> Things that worked in the 80s and 90's are not going to work now.


*
Things relevant to that eras pop culture won't, but Great Storylines and Characters always work, no matter what era as long as it's the modern pop culture, just like the 80s and 90s were relevant to their pop culture.*



A-C-P said:


> And the biggest difference between the 80's and 90's to now, is that Pro-wrestling does not have the negative "stigma" in the "main stream" it has now.


*So it should draw even more then, your argument is really self defeating.*



A-C-P said:


> You keep saying Rock's return and Daniel Bryan's WM run prove me wrong but they really, they really prove me right. Those were the 2 hottest things the WWE has done since the very early 2000s and they increased business short-term yes, but did not really move the needles that much, if you look at those 2 things as the CEILING of what the WWE can do nowadays, b/c that is really what the ceiling is now.


*
That wasn't the ceiling, those two runs were very short, yet in that short time they drew huge, so it refutes your arguments, it's proven that great stories and characters will bring back mainstream audience, you can't just do it once in a while or one storyline, the same effort they put in The Rock and Daniel Bryan vs The Authority is the same effort they have to put in the whole show week in and week out.*



A-C-P said:


> Not sure how else I can explain this to you. All those "mainstream" fans that used to exist that you think the WWE can get back are gone.


*Yet it's been proven that they're not nonexistent, they're simply not watching because the show sucks.*



A-C-P said:


> Between WWE turning crap for a good # of years (in their minds), to the rise in popularity of MMA killing people's interest in Pro-wrestling/sports entertainment, to their just being WAY more entertainment options out there nowadays, to a LONG list of other reasons there are millions of "old fans" than are NEVER going to be fans again, just b/c they were fans in the 80's and 90s doesn't automatically mean they will be again in certain things happen. The WWE has been trying to copy the AE and RA eras for YEARS now, and it hasn't worked.


*RA didn't draw, AE did, AE was modern, it was relevant to that late 90's/early 2000's American Pie/Jerry Springer/Teen Comedy culture.

That culture is gone, American Pie ain't gonna draw huge like it did in 1999, WWE has to reflect pop culture. the Workrate booking is irrelevant to pop culture, therefore it doesn't draw.
*



A-C-P said:


> In the end we all want the same thing, better shows. Now better shows mean different things to different people.


*Exactly, that's why you make it a Variety show again, Have Action, Adventure, Comedy, Horror, Drama, Romance, etc for your whole audience. Workrate is none of that, because even the Action genre has Storylines.*


----------



## Bazinga (Apr 2, 2012)

How do you push a new star? You have him win to make him look credible.

Anything but Balor winning on RAW would've already put him in midcard purgatory. 

Russo makes some good points but the business is evolving, so he better get used to it.


----------



## HBShizzle (Jul 26, 2016)

Bazinga said:


> How do you push a new star? You have him win to make him look credible.
> 
> Anything but Balor winning on RAW would've already put him in midcard purgatory.
> 
> Russo makes some good points but the business is evolving, so he better get used to it.


Disagree completely,

You make a star by building him up in my opinion, they have taken a huge risk on Balor. Balor is only familiar with the NXT crowd, if this was not the case the crowd reaction and reaction in general would of been far bigger. 

You test the talent, you build them up. You put a lower card belt on them and then they legitimise it. You test their promos, you test the ability to draw. Does the ratings go up when he's on? It's what ruined Roman Reigns, he wasn't ready. In what way is Finn Balor ready? Roman can go in the ring, he just has a different style to Balor.

Balor has no character, he dresses up as a demon for PPVs and has a cool entrance. That's it, if WWE don't give this guy a personality and a storyline then it doesn't matter if he's the greatest you've seen in the ring he has no chance. 

Why didn't he have the demon entrance for Raw? That would of drawn a lot more people into him. If you see Balor for the first time he doesn't strike you as someone as a world champion and a somebody. It's up to WWE to make him a somebody, putting him out there with a black jacket and black trucks with no mic does not do him any favours whatsoever.

If you hotshot talent they hit the peak straight away, the only way is down.


----------



## Geeee (Aug 9, 2010)

I think characters are definitely the most important factor but if we're trying to figure who would beat who in a real fight, shouldn't we just have real fights instead of fake ones?


----------



## heggland0 (Aug 17, 2008)

Wait, so he thinks Rusev lost because WWE caters to the IWC?
And not because they think Balor merchandise is going to sell like hot pockets?
:vince$

Yeah, sounds plausible.


----------



## XDream (Jun 13, 2005)

HBShizzle said:


> Disagree completely,
> 
> You make a star by building him up in my opinion, they have taken a huge risk on Balor. Balor is only familiar with the NXT crowd, if this was not the case the crowd reaction and reaction in general would of been far bigger.
> 
> ...



This. Even I am concerned this is overdoing it. It should of been the demon , at least, for the Roman fight...that makes sense. Could of said it psyched Roman out or something.

Anyways logic in WWE is something I wouldn't bother getting your hopes up.


----------



## adamclark52 (Nov 27, 2015)

if you just ignore him he will go away


----------



## LaMelo (Jan 13, 2015)

I finally agree with Russo. Triple H has too much power!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Jabez Makaveli (Oct 15, 2015)

Vince Russo went on a fightful podcast and said that it wasn't that Balor beat them. He had a problem with how it was booked, so you can stop getting your panties in a bunch. I also agree the way it was booked was stupid. Honestly, it should have went to Cesaro since he is already an established star and is overall a way better wrestler than Balor is.


----------



## Phaedra (Aug 15, 2014)

A-Will said:


> Vince Russo went on a fightful podcast and said that it wasn't that Balor beat them. He had a problem with how it was booked, so you can stop getting your panties in a bunch. I also agree the way it was booked was stupid. Honestly, it should have went to Cesaro since he is already an established star and is overall a way better wrestler than Balor is.


This. He didn't bury Balor, he buried how a guy Balor's size can be fucking rag dolled like he was by a bigger guy, slammed twice to the mat and then kick out. Like if they'd booked it to have Balor being able to completely beat the brakes off of Reigns because of his size, being more nimble and or more skilled then yeah, it would have been better.

He should never have pinned Rusev. someone else in that match should have eaten the pin, not your US champion. nope.


----------



## The Ultimate Warrior (Oct 19, 2011)

I can't disagree with Russo here :draper2


----------



## MGK (Jul 29, 2016)

Vince russo is the single greatest mind the business has ever seen. I tend to agree with him, and this is no different.


----------



## luckyfri (Sep 30, 2014)

Never heard that russo said something good about wwe in the last decade.

I liked that balor went over reigns.
Now this piece of shit finally starts to loose some matches


----------



## 304418 (Jul 2, 2014)

Umm...even I would have put Balor over Rusev and Reigns, and I like the latter two over Balor. Granted, in my version, Balor beats Reigns to be #1 Contender for the US title, and then Balor beats Rusev at Summerslam, instead of Balor challenging for the Universal title, but WWE actually had the right idea here. Just a different way of executing that.


----------



## Phantomdreamer (Jan 29, 2011)

I'm so glad Russo doesn't have a job in wrestling.


----------



## Blade Runner (Jan 24, 2012)

THIS being the official marker of wrestling being "dead" is a bold statement considering all the other sh*t WWE pulled before this to draw away it's core and mainstream fanbase over the years, but I do understand where Russo is coming from. The WWE are banking on NXT awareness (which is still relatively small) to sell Balor on his debut night on RAW. No real buildup to that moment, no proper introduction to the character, no real reason to care unless you've been following his stint in NXT. That's not how you draw in the people that are unfamiliar, and you're basically telling them to go along with something that MIGHT become interesting over time. Basically Russo is saying that WWE are catering to the NXT market , those are the fans that mark for wrestlers coming in with "indie" buzz regardless of how they're introduced or woven in an intriguing storyline. Some fans expect more than just reputation and workrate to get them emotionally invested, and that speaks for fans of most other mediums of entertainment outside of the wrestling bubble. First impressions are very crucial, and Balor's win over Reigns doesn't mean much if there's a disconnect with the character. You can't just debut him and hotshot him with 2 victories back-to-back against major stars, there needs to at least be a proper build/introduction for it to be effective.

As for Balor himself -- His NXT run has been kinda vanilla outside of workrate, but I do think there's potential with him especially as a heel. His Demon entrance right now is the best thing that he has going for himself which is baffling that it wasn't used on RAW. At least it would've immediately grabbed people's attention and created an important "first impression" aura that would make people curious about his character going forward.

Great characters, strong storylines and intermingling arcs are the cornerstone of Pro-Wrestling and it's been key to it's cultural success over the decades. At the end of the day, in-ring matches and indie-circuit buzz is only the priority for the niche markets, not the ones that will help WWE make the most money.


----------



## Jeremy Bandicoot (Jul 28, 2016)

Yes Russo, YOU'RE wrestling is dead. The good wrestling is just getting started.


----------



## MGK (Jul 29, 2016)

DAMN SKIPPY said:


> THIS being the official marker of wrestling being "dead" is a bold statement considering all the other sh*t WWE pulled before this to draw away it's core and mainstream fanbase over the years, but I do understand where Russo is coming from. The WWE are banking on NXT awareness (which is still relatively small) to sell Balor on his debut night on RAW. No real buildup to that moment, no proper introduction to the character, no real reason to care unless you've been following his stint in NXT. That's not how you draw in the people that are unfamiliar, and you're basically telling them to go along with something that MIGHT become interesting over time. Basically Russo is saying that WWE are catering to the NXT market , those are the fans that mark for wrestlers coming in with "indie" buzz regardless of how they're introduced or woven in an intriguing storyline. Some fans expect more than just reputation and workrate to get them emotionally invested, and that speaks for fans of most other mediums of entertainment outside of the wrestling bubble. First impressions are very crucial, and Balor's win over Reigns doesn't mean much if there's a disconnect with the character. You can't just debut him and hotshot him with 2 victories back-to-back against major stars, there needs to at least be a proper build/introduction for it to be effective.
> 
> As for Balor himself -- His NXT run has been *kinda vanilla outside of workrate,* but I do think there's potential with him especially as a heel. His Demon entrance right now is the best thing that he has going for himself which is baffling that it wasn't used on RAW. At least it would've immediately grabbed people's attention and created an important "first impression" aura that would make people curious about his character going forward.
> 
> Great characters, strong storylines and intermingling arcs are the cornerstone of Pro-Wrestling and it's been key to it's cultural success over the decades. At the end of the day, in-ring matches and indie-circuit buzz is only the priority for the niche markets, not the ones that will help WWE make the most money.


This is the problem with not only him but every other guy WWE is bringing in from the Indy's.


----------



## MGK (Jul 29, 2016)

Jeremy Bandicoot said:


> Yes Russo, YOU'RE wrestling is dead. The good wrestling is just getting started.


It's rather interesting how Russo's definition of wrestling saw high TV ratings and what you deem as good wrestling is resulting in a sharp decline.
:aries2


----------



## IronMan8 (Dec 25, 2015)

MGK said:


> It's rather interesting how Russo's definition of wrestling saw high TV ratings and what you deem as good wrestling is resulting in a sharp decline.
> :aries2


Exactly. 

Russo's definition of wrestling saw Stone Cold drive into the arena in a beer truck and spray beer into the ring to build a feud which would culminate in a realistic-looking match at a PPV.

His philosophies are sound, even though he exaggerates on his podcast for the entertainment effect at times. People can hate on his views all they want, but the ratings speak for themselves.

Russo's WWE > Current WWE.


----------



## Jeremy Bandicoot (Jul 28, 2016)

MGK said:


> It's rather interesting how Russo's definition of wrestling saw high TV ratings and what you deem as good wrestling is resulting in a sharp decline.
> :aries2


A sharp decline? Last week's RAW saw a 205,334 viewer increase since the week before it and the Smackdown Live Draft saw a 1,102,000 viewer increase. I don't think that can be classified as a sharp decline. And it's been one week, and I claimed it was just getting started, trying to argue about a sharp decline or increase right now is futile, because we don't have the data yet from the average episode of both brands after the brand split.


----------



## T0M (Jan 11, 2015)

When he says "sharp decline" I think he's looking a bit further than last week. Raw at its peak was doing what? 6-7million?


----------



## NotGuilty (Apr 6, 2015)

Russo is the greatest wrestling mind this world has ever seen.


Russo for President 2020.


----------



## MarkovKane (May 21, 2015)

Personally I was sick of Cesaro being the guy eating all the pins so others look better (just like Becky has done non-stop from Sasha's on and off again singles career).

But Rusev was a champion, well, it sort looks better to show that "Universal Guys" are better than "US guys", IF that is the route they wanted to go. I liked it when US was having better stories and feuds going. So Rusev is still champ, and now we know he isn't in same group as top stars, except it got pinned by a "wwe rookie". As for pinning Roman, I think it was fucking dumb. If Roman is losing, why let him into the singles fight. I think the Fatal 4 ways were lopsided. The 3 dudes who have proved they are best workers in the company (Cesaro and Owns), both who had a match of the year canidate last Summer with Rusev. And Balor is tossed in with the 3 best RAW has to offer. I feel like it undermines WWE's 3 best chances are legit fighters. 

If you ask me, Balor should ahve beat Zayn, Jericho and Sheamus. While Owens beats Roman, Cesaro and Rusev. That way when Balor screws Owens, we thicken their continued rivalry, which is perfect. Cause when Owens is champ, he already has sure thing with Zayn, but continuing the Balor feud, means more to do.


----------



## TaterTots (Jul 22, 2016)

NotGuilty said:


> Russo is the greatest wrestling mind this world has ever seen.
> 
> 
> Russo for President 2020.


So you actually agree that Roman Reigns should have gone over Balor and be put into the title match after what happened? lol


----------



## NotGuilty (Apr 6, 2015)

TaterTots said:


> So you actually agree that Roman Reigns should have gone over Balor and be put into the title match after what happened? lol


Yes vanilla midgets have no place in the top of the food chain


----------



## Shadowcran (Jan 12, 2010)

It's far from great, but last week's Raw was a step in the right direction. 

By advancing Balor they were essentially announcing "We've learned our lesson and will no longer hold anyone back". It could have been any new wrestler with potential, just that Balor got the nod.

It's going to be a slow climb, I hope they don't stumble along the way.

Everyone has had enough, decade after decade, of the same "lurch" type wrestlers, like Roman Reigns. They realize that mobility and cardio beats muscle.


----------



## TaterTots (Jul 22, 2016)

NotGuilty said:


> Yes vanilla midgets have no place in the top of the food chain


And bottom tier wrestlers like Roman do?


----------



## rocknblues81 (Feb 27, 2013)

NotGuilty said:


> Yes vanilla midgets have no place in the top of the food chain


Neither does vanilla personalities.


----------



## NotGuilty (Apr 6, 2015)

TaterTots said:


> And bottom tier wrestlers like Roman do?


Bottom tier? He comes from a long line of good wrestlers I'd hardly class him as bottom tier. Unlike the midget who only got a contract +tv time because a bunch of no lifers on the internet cry and cry to get him fame.


----------



## TaterTots (Jul 22, 2016)

NotGuilty said:


> Bottom tier? He comes from a long line of good wrestlers I'd hardly class him as bottom tier. Unlike the midget who only got a contract +tv time because a bunch of no lifers on the internet cry and cry to get him fame.


Coming from a family of good wrestlers does not automatically makes Roman a good wrestler. And yes he is a bottom tier, can't call his own matches, has to be carried to good matches by more talented wrestlers than him, can't cut a promo to save his life, etc. It is well known that the only reason he was pushed is because he had "the look", not because of his talent.


----------



## NotGuilty (Apr 6, 2015)

TaterTots said:


> Coming from a family of good wrestlers does not automatically makes Roman a good wrestler. And yes he is a bottom tier, can't call his own matches, has to be carried to good matches by more talented wrestlers than him, can't cut a promo to save his life, etc. It is well known that the only reason he was pushed is because he had "the look", not because of his talent.


And Balor is someone who only gets by for being a spot monkey.


having to kill your body to get a reaction doesn't make you a good wrestler either.


----------



## DaGawd44 (Jul 21, 2016)

Russo killed WCW and nearly killed TNA. His involvement in the Attitude Era is way over exaggerated. He was responsible for the worst stuff in the AE, the stuff that AE marks never mention. The AE was WAY better when he left anyway. 2000 was by far the best year. He killed a promising young company in TNA and they will never get to the level they once were. His marks will defend him all day but you can't argue it successfully. He is a wannabe, awful TV writer who somehow got into the wrestling business. Every decent idea he had is invalidated by all of the awful crap he wrote. Blow up dolls, miscarriages, choppy choppy pee pee, reducing women to eye candy, pole matches, electrified cage match, OKLAHOMA, nonsensical, incoherent storylines. You can't defend any if it no matter how hard you tried. It's all stupid, offensive trash that has no place on late night television, let alone a wrestling show. There is a reason he is irrelevant and pretty much black balled from all major promotions. Lets not forget also that he also ADMITTED to sabotaging TNA. He also quit WWE over the phone, despite the fact that he was a shirt drive from the arena.


----------



## TaterTots (Jul 22, 2016)

NotGuilty said:


> And Balor is someone who only gets by for being a spot monkey.
> 
> 
> having to kill your body to get a reaction doesn't make you a good wrestler either.


So you admit that Roman is a bottom tier wrestler then, good to see we agree on that.


----------



## DaGawd44 (Jul 21, 2016)

NotGuilty said:


> And Balor is someone who only gets by for being a spot monkey.
> 
> 
> having to kill your body to get a reaction doesn't make you a good wrestler either.


Balor is far from a spot monkey. He came from NJPW where psychology and storytelling are the most important skills.


----------



## Trifektah (Nov 21, 2011)

If Russo thinks it's bad, they are doing something right.

Keep it up, WWE.


----------

