# Punk: I don't think there's casual wrestling fans anymore



## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

There are casual fans out there but AEW does not know how to attract them.


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## Stellar (May 30, 2016)

There are still casual wrestling fans but they probably are much more likely to watch WWE since its a household name. If CM Punk is looking for them while in AEW then he may as well quit looking. lol


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## Sherlok4 (Nov 16, 2021)

So he is basically saying that pro wrestling is nothing more than a niche product at this point

Take the UFC as an example, his former employer, the reason it is so popular is because of casual fans that tune in for the big cards, or for a fight like CM Punk vs Mickey Gall

The casuals are what the UFC wants, they know the hardcores will watch all the fight night cards and preliminary matches, but those hardcore superfans are not what makes the UFC such a massive financial success

It’s the casuals


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## RapShepard (Jun 20, 2014)

There are certainly casual fans, saying there are only hardcore fans is just a way to cover ass if things don't grow.


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## Brodus Clay (Jan 6, 2012)

Casuals exist but they are not the grunge no fucks given guys of the 90's the new casuals are into stuff like Becky Lynch and New Day.
The most casual stuff AEW has are Dark Order and Orange Cassidy.


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## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

I'll just throw it out there that Tony has spent tens of millions already on trying to get the casual audience. Sting, Big Show, Mark Henry, Vickie Guerrero etc are not smart mark favourites. 

If there was no casual fans Tony could probably scrape by without the likes of Punk and Bryan also.


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## InexorableJourney (Sep 10, 2016)

I believe Punk is talking about the live audience, who are clearly fanatic.

As for the TV audience they are there and can be seen most easily in the TV off-season, when wrestling gets it's highest ratings only to drop once again when new shows and football begin anew.


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## yeahbaby! (Jan 27, 2014)

It's a hell of a lot harder to snare casual fans these days IMO, considering the curtain has well and truly been lifted and you can find out everything about every wrestler's real life and how they do the moves and call spots etc etc. Someone mentioned UFC, fans left wrestling to see MMA now simply because it's real but mixed with proper 'feuds'.

If wrestling companies now weren't so obsessed with appealing to a wide audience DIRECTLY through certain channels like twitter etc and instead used the bubble they operate in to their advantage they might get somewhere.


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## $Dolladrew$ (Jun 15, 2020)

Sherlok4 said:


> So he is basically saying that pro wrestling is nothing more than a niche product at this point
> 
> Take the UFC as an example, his former employer, the reason it is so popular is because of casual fans that tune in for the big cards, or for a fight like CM Punk vs Mickey Gall
> 
> ...


How are casuals making them the most money when it's the hardcores who buy the lengthier subscription packages which cost more?

Sure the ufc sees a bump in ppv buyrates for a McGregor fight because casuals jump in to watch.....but the majority of ppvs have the same buyrates which are bought by mostly hardcores, casuals dont buy every ppv.


Mma has actually seen a fall in overall viewership and has plateaued since the boom days because much like pro wrestling it is niche and only appeals to certain demographics of ppl. Mma is two ppl punching eachother in the face, it's not going to appeal to everyone. Pro wrestling is soap operas with suplexes again only appeals to certain demographics. 


There are in fact a casual base of viewers but it is a much smaller pool then in the boom era of wrestling, there will never be 10million viewers for wrestling it doesn't matter what product you put out ppl dont care.

I agree with Punk to a degree I think they should do what the hardcores want and sprinkle in a few segments and things to attract a broader audience, but ppl have to be realistic in the numbers because alot of fans are straight delusional.


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## $Dolladrew$ (Jun 15, 2020)

Chip Chipperson said:


> I'll just throw it out there that Tony has spent tens of millions already on trying to get the casual audience. Sting, Big Show, Mark Henry, Vickie Guerrero etc are not smart mark favourites.
> 
> If there was no casual fans Tony could probably scrape by without the likes of Punk and Bryan also.


No those are all characters returning fans would connect with and recognize.......duh

Punk and Bryan attract the crossover wwe audience as well as the point I made above about fans returning......again duh.(thought you were some kind of booker?)


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## Gwi1890 (Nov 7, 2019)

Chip Chipperson said:


> There are casual fans out there but AEW does not know how to attract them.


Bullshit, casual fan isn’t out there your either a geek who likes wrestling or you are not


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## TeamFlareZakk (Jul 15, 2020)

Its a wrestling promotion, so its audience should be wrestling fans! Screw the "casual fans" they dont even love wrestling, why cater to them when they hate this? Catering to them is how WWE became a clown show to begin with.


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## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

Pfft - what does this long-time professional wrestler know about the industry he is an expert in


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## ste1592 (Dec 20, 2014)

Chip Chipperson said:


> I'll just throw it out there that Tony has spent tens of millions already on trying to get the casual audience. Sting, Big Show, Mark Henry, Vickie Guerrero etc are not smart mark favourites.
> 
> If there was no casual fans Tony could probably scrape by without the likes of Punk and Bryan also.


I mean, one could argue that if there were casual fans, Sting, Big Show, Mark Henry, Punk and Bryan would attract them.


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## PhenomenalOne11 (Oct 2, 2016)

Sounds like someone who can't draw casual fans.


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## Tell it like it is (Jul 1, 2019)

I see casual fans more as "bandwagon fans" like we see in sports. They'll tune in when it's cool, but couldnt tell you anything about the team in the non golden era(s).
I'm sure many AE fans probably didn't watch in the Hogan, or HBK/Bret eras, and didn't even stay after 02. Those are not fans you want to attract. Either bringing them back to the product, or building new fans like that.
And the obvious problem trying to appease everyone, its impossible. No matter what you do, theres always people against it. You say you like water, others say they hate it. You like warm weather, others hate it. You like sleeping, others hate it.


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## BrokenFreakingNeck (Oct 20, 2017)

Tell it like it is said:


> I see casual fans more as "bandwagon fans" like we see in sports. They'll tune in when it's cool, but couldnt tell you anything about the team in the non golden era(s).


This is exactly it. Same goes for any TV show. Bandwagoners climb on when it gets hot. They listen to the word of mouth on the streets and thats where it takes off. Its FOMO (fear of missing out). 

It really starts from its core fan base. When its core has nothing good to say there is noway anything takes off. Noone has much good to say about WWE for decades.


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## thorn123 (Oct 10, 2019)

There are casual fans out there, but (here I go again) the only way they will view AEW is if they put the title on the Rock or they stumble across an NWO level angle.
No other booking, no other stars, nothing else will matter


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## phatbob426 (Feb 6, 2010)

Casual fans like kayfabe.

Modern wrestlers with very few exceptions have zero regard for kayfabe. The disregard for kayfabe is so predominant that the entire product is a parody or SNL version of the wrestling product which attracts "the casual fan".


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## The XL 2 (Sep 13, 2016)

It's not just casual, its lapsed fans. There are millions of people who would love to watch wrestling every week, but neither WWE or AEW deliver a solid product. WWE is way too scripted, homogenized, and meaningless, and AEW is way too littered with guys who don't belong on national TV and have far too many pointlessly long and formulaic matches.


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## TeamFlareZakk (Jul 15, 2020)

phatbob426 said:


> Casual fans like kayfabe.
> 
> Modern wrestlers with very few exceptions have zero regard for kayfabe. The disregard for kayfabe is so predominant that the entire product is a parody or SNL version of the wrestling product which attracts "the casual fan".


Even The Rock isnt drawing anymore, hes just that cringy butthead that ruined the Fast and Furious movies now with the casuals.


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## thorn123 (Oct 10, 2019)

phatbob426 said:


> Casual fans like kayfabe.
> 
> Modern wrestlers with very few exceptions have zero regard for kayfabe. The disregard for kayfabe is so predominant that the entire product is a parody or SNL version of the wrestling product which attracts "the casual fan".


gold star


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## Riddle101 (Aug 15, 2006)

For me, it's not a debate about whether there are casual fans or not, but rather that people misunderstand casual fans. A lot of people want to label all casual fans as the same, in that they all share the same likes and opinions about wrestling when in reality, there are many casual fans out there, and like the IWC, there is a broad range of different opinions. Not all casual fans are going like Kenny Omega, but he probably does have a fanbase among casual fans as well. The same could be said about Daniel Bryan who became one of the most popular wrestlers in WWE yet he was an indy guy just like a lot of wrestlers in AEW. So this idea that casual wouldn't like AEW's stuff is a bit far-fetched. I'm sure there are a lot of casual fans who would and do enjoy AEW.

Another thing about casuals is that I think some people underestimate casual fans' intelligence like they wouldn't be able to grasp the type of things like smark fans do. I think a lot of casuals are more intelligent than some people give credit.


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## WrestleFAQ (May 26, 2020)

Almost 20 years of a (mostly) terrible national product will do that to an industry.


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## DaSlacker (Feb 9, 2020)

They've got some videos on YouTube with with millions of views. That doesn't take into account videos not on their channel. So there's a sizeable amount of people who are aware of AEW and have checked it out, but only a fraction pay for the product.

Wrestling was always like that though. The viewership was fragmented between cable and syndication. Now it's fragmented between TV, DVR, social media and illegal streaming. Of course, after nearly 40 years sports entertainment is old hat so it stands to reason many others have completely lost touch with it. 

Still, it's a sizeable enough audience to work with. Few other genres that incorporate: 52 weeks per year, a roster of male and female characters, clothing and attire, general merchandise, live shows, international tours, PPV, toys, video games, books, music. All in house. 

You don't need people watching it that often to make money from it or be good partner for the corporate giants. You just need to keep running with a decent budget and resonate with a good angle or feud on here and there basis.


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## Passing Triangles (Feb 2, 2015)

Brodus Clay said:


> *Casuals exist but they are not the grunge no fucks given guys of the 90's *the new casuals are into stuff like Becky Lynch and New Day.
> The most casual stuff AEW has are Dark Order and Orange Cassidy.


😂

That's as accurate of a description as you can possibly get. 

I was in my late teens during the Attitude Era and the crowds were just fucking wild. It's no exaggeration to say that half the front row of any televised show would be yelling obscene shit at the nearest camera.


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## rich110991 (Aug 27, 2020)

He’s right, fuck the casual fans, focus on the actual fans. Kids being born every minute who might become actual fans. Don’t need to attract people who are “casual” 😂


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## Ger (Jul 20, 2018)

*I am very disappointed by Punk's statement.* Thought AEW was just the last chance to make something bigger out of wrestling again. But since I heard more and more comments from TK and now hearing this stuff from Punk, I guess they gave up, if they ever tried. So Punk makes big money to feed the bubble and that's it.
WWE will sieve all the talents out there in future and AEW will cherry-pick from that. In the meanwhile some so called AEW-fans keep thinking, that they could shock, displease or trigger anyone watching WWE. Regarding the army of ex-WWE guys inring and backstage, AEW will turn more and more into WWE 2.0 and stay in their own bubble, like WWE does since years. Boring times are upcoming there. 
I am not sure about all this nonsense in the future. I mean, if we stay in that bubble anyway, then people can also spent their time for promotions in their countries. AEW already had a lot of people interested mostly because the local stuff had/has problems because of C.


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## Soul Rex (Nov 26, 2017)

Come on man, you know better than this.

Casual fans are casual fans, there are a shit ton of people will casually go to a houseshow just because wrestling is in town, a lot of people will start their TV, check in to watch a football game on Fox or NBA and meet with some wrestling show unintinally.

Casuals fans will always exist becuse they are literally just fucking normal people who watch wrestling casually.. 

Saying there are no casuals fans is not only ignorant and incoherent, but also a very bad way of saying you don't understand basics of this bussines.

Punk, man... I used to call you a genius.. What happened?


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## the44boz (Apr 29, 2014)

Punk has finally realized that he never had fans he only had marks and he needed the WWE more than they needed him. Congratulations Phil you finally got a clue.


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## jameehayter (Nov 16, 2021)

Chip Chipperson said:


> There are casual fans out there but AEW does not know how to attract them.


Casual fans must be exclusively +50 or female because aew beats all cable wrestling for males in demo.


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## JBLGOAT (Mar 24, 2014)

Most casual fans are lapsed hardcore fans who found something else and check back on wrestling occasionally


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## The Raw Smackdown (Jan 8, 2017)

THAT'S WHAT I'VE BEEN SAYING!

Glad that Punk gets it though. Casual fans don't really exist anymore and they haven't for a long ass time. Wrestling is too niche to have casuals I feel like.

All that's really left is the hardcore so AEW is right in what they're doing in catering to them. Don't get why they get flack for that.


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## Prosper (Mar 25, 2015)

Chip Chipperson said:


> There are casual fans out there but AEW does not know how to attract them.


How would you attract them given your booking experience? What would your next 3 months look like?


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## AuthorOfPosts (Feb 9, 2020)

Wrestling has this moronic idea that the numbers will grow if you're more silly than you are serious, if you're more woke than you are edgy. 

New Day & The Elite aren't the way forward. They're a bunch of goofballs but they're a big part of wrestling's current face and that's the problem.


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## BroncoBuster3 (Apr 19, 2021)

Man, AEW truely is toxic to the growth of pro wrestling worldwide. They think there's no use trying so they're just going to aim their shows at the few PWG fans that still exist.


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## AuthorOfPosts (Feb 9, 2020)

Also, if CM Punk doesn't think casual fans exist then how does he explain people tuning in for his debut and other big segments when they don't really care during regular shows. How would he categorise them?


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## 3venflow (Feb 3, 2019)

AuthorOfPosts said:


> New Day & The Elite aren't the way forward. They're a bunch of goofballs but they're a big part of wrestling's current face and that's the problem.


Why are the fans not flocking back for Roman Reigns and his movie star looks then? Or McIntyre, the big handsome Scottish guy? Or Lashley, the menacing former MMA fighter? Why does Lesnar not create huge upsurge in TV ratings?

Smackdown is drawing less with Reigns on top than they were when Jinder Mahal was champion. Does that make him a lesser superstar? No, not really, you just have to consider all the variables and what has been happening in the TV industry. Every year it is declining and pro wrestling, like live sports, is swimming against the tide.

Fewer people watch TV, fewer people watch *live* TV, and *far fewer* people (-18% subs alone since Dynamite's debut) watch cable TV (which affects Dynamite, RAW and Rampage especially with Smackdown being on network TV). AEW and WWE get a lot more viewers on the DVR +3 and +7 day ratings but no one seems to talk about that. On-demand viewing like this wasn't an option back in the day, you had to have the channel actively tuned in to record the show on VHS.

We're now in an era of choice. Unparalelled choice. Back in the 80s, 90s and 2000s until more recently, you had far less choice and not only that, people sat at home and watched things live. Now, I can binge watch The Mandalorian today, watch Dune on HBO Max tomorrow, then catch up on AEW or WWE in a couple of days if I want.


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## The_It_Factor (Aug 14, 2012)

It’s kind of silly the way some posters are shitting on casual fans or calling them bandwagon fans. It’s a TV show, not a sports team, so why would they want to watch when it’s gone straight down the toilet? It’s not that they watch when it’s “popular”, it’s that it’s “popular” because they watch, and they watch because it’s entertaining.

Professional wrestling is absolute shit and a joke. I spent so many years loving it and have a lot of love for what it was, but I haven’t watched that bullshit in like 5 years. I still keep up with it (this forum being my primary method) because I spent so many years loving it and I guess some part of me holds onto hope that it won’t be an embarrassment forever.

Let me ask this… is it not concerning that wrestling has lost more “hardcore” fans than it had gained casuals? Could it not just be that wrestling sucks? The fact that guys who loved wrestling and gave their bodies up for wrestling say they don’t even watch or keep up with it anymore (I’ve heard this from everyone from Raven to Steve Austin more or less saying it) should really illustrate that it is a niche product.

If I grew up listening to Gish, Siamese Dream and MCIS, am I suddenly not a “true” smashing pumpkins fan when I don’t care that Oceania comes out? No… it’s because they fucking suck now and it shouldn’t even be considered the same band.

The casuals (and hardcores that left) would come back if it became good again, but the best they can do is pop one or two ratings (nowhere close to their old ratings) when someone makes a return. But I tend to agree with Punk, there’s no sense in appealing to casuals because it hasn’t worked in years and would require something unforeseen. It would need to be organic.


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## BroncoBuster3 (Apr 19, 2021)

AuthorOfPosts said:


> Also, if CM Punk doesn't think casual fans exist then how does he explain people tuning in for his debut and other big segments when they don't really care during regular shows. How would he categorise them?


He, like the fans, would simply move the goal posts and say "if you watch wrestling once a year you're not casual, you're a hardcore fan because you know the episodes to watch where big things can happen" or "if you follow a wrestling news or rumour site you're not a casual fan".


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## Casual Fan #52 (Dec 23, 2010)

We exist.


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## IronMan8 (Dec 25, 2015)

It's true.

All forms of entertainment are becoming more niche compared to the past.

Nobody is channel surfing anymore to randomly stumble across a wrestling show that then pulls them in with soap opera elements. The Attitude Era formulas with the "casual fan" in mind don't apply to today's environment because that formula assumes people are channel surfing, which they no longer are.

So the question is how do you grow a wrestling product in today's environment?

AEW are catering to wrestling fans, and they might succeed at taking more of WWE's pie. After that, I don't know how they could grow. 

But I do know it won't be the same way that it was done in the past.


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## Necrolust (Mar 4, 2015)

There might not be casual fans of wrestling anymore. Personally I would consider myself fairly casual; I stopped watching wrestling when WWE finally drove me away about 5 years ago, I obviously still had an interest, since I was a member of this board, but not big enough to watch anything else. I never watched impact or Tna. I’m 45 now, grew up with WWE and loved the AE as it was part of my youth with drinking and partying. Who are the casual fans today? I see people like @DammitChrist who are obviously a hardcore wrestling fan, and I can respect that.

I think Punk is partly right; there’s no casual fans left in that regard. And I think we are deluding ourselves into thinking that there’s 5-6 million wrestling fans out there just waiting to get back into the product. We do that to convince ourselves that wrestling is not a dying brand. But is that really a bad thing? If you don’t have to cater to a large audience, you have an opportunity to develop a new product, something that maybe more people will find interesting.

My first and foremost love is music; I’ve been a metal head for over 30 years. I despise the mainstream world of metal. I was perfectly happy with the demise of metal in the late 80’s-90’s. Many of the community whined “oh no, grunge has killed metal”. No it didn’t, with a core audience you will never die. Music had become stale and weak. What we then saw was the underground building; we saw the death metal evolving from the Florida heydays, into something more; we got the second wave of black metal; we saw many small underground movements that put out quality product that did only appeal to fans of the extreme and not the hairspray fans, the casuals.

Metal has stagnated again, apart from the underground, You see tons of celebrities in metal shirts, cutely throwing up horns for their Instagram. I’m happy to see it dive under again, to return with new sounds and ideas. Same with wrestling.


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## Kopros_The_Great (Jun 26, 2014)

There is no such thing as a "casual fanatic", never was. They're mutually exclusive. Either you casually watch it or you're a fan. Anything else is an oxymoron, and the whole discussion is fucking asinine and only shows how far wrestling fans have their heads stuck up their own asses.


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## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

Gwi1890 said:


> Bullshit, casual fan isn’t out there your either a geek who likes wrestling or you are not


I promote my shows here in Sydney and generally I'm drawing maybe 75% casual fans and 25% smart mark. There are definitely people out there who like the idea of wrestling, like the idea of watching an event but have given up on the WWE and don't know about AEW or anything else that is out there.

They know about me because they might see a poster, they might see an online advertisement or they might hear about us on the radio/newspaper etc but to most of those people they don't know what the fuck is going on in WWE (Given up on it) and don't know what AEW, ROH, Impact, NJPW etc is.

I had an old woman at one of my events before COVID almost in tears because some heels beat up her favourite wrestler. This isn't someone that logs onto WrestlingForum to get the card for AEW Dynamite and watches on Fite TV, lol



ste1592 said:


> I mean, one could argue that if there were casual fans, Sting, Big Show, Mark Henry, Punk and Bryan would attract them.


How? AEW hasn't tried to market the fact that they have these guys to anyone except internet smarks. How is Joe Average going to find out CM Punk made his return if AEW can't reach him?



TeamFlareZakk said:


> Even The Rock isnt drawing anymore, hes just that cringy butthead that ruined the Fast and Furious movies now with the casuals.


Isn't The Rock the highest paid actor in Hollywood? Lol.



Prosper said:


> How would you attract them given your booking experience? What would your next 3 months look like?


Well, you can't attract the mainstream in 3 months this is moreso something you can start planning and executing now and maybe see big changes 3 years from now.

Boring answer but the main thing I'd do is hire a really good publicity team and I'd be utilising my most famous stars in Jericho, Bryan and Punk to go out there and be interviewed. Probably not going to see Punk turn up on Conan but mid tier MMA shows or average late night shows? Definitely doable.

You'd also have to make the product more attractive to the casuals though. Big characters, crazy shit happening, compelling storylines and television, can't miss wrestlers, big names, hot women etc. That'd probably mean getting the book out of Tony's paws and putting it in someone's hands who is somewhat competent though and that'll never happen...


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## Gwi1890 (Nov 7, 2019)

Chip Chipperson said:


> I promote my shows here in Sydney and generally I'm drawing maybe 75% casual fans and 25% smart mark. There are definitely people out there who like the idea of wrestling, like the idea of watching an event but have given up on the WWE and don't know about AEW or anything else that is out there.
> 
> They know about me because they might see a poster, they might see an online advertisement or they might hear about us on the radio/newspaper etc but to most of those people they don't know what the fuck is going on in WWE (Given up on it) and don't know what AEW, ROH, Impact, NJPW etc is.
> 
> ...


Im assuming it’s a small promotion you run? I have no idea , there are small part time promotions running in the uk they perform in community centres and bingo halls of course they are going to draw non fanatics fans who want to take their kids for a day out similar to the circus and fun fair, don’t get me wrong If I wanted to take my kids to their first event it would probably be something along those lines but there’s a reason it’s not on tv


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## jameehayter (Nov 16, 2021)

Chip Chipperson said:


> I promote my shows here in Sydney and generally I'm drawing maybe 75% casual fans and 25% smart mark. There are definitely people out there who like the idea of wrestling, like the idea of watching an event but have given up on the WWE and don't know about AEW or anything else that is out there.
> 
> They know about me because they might see a poster, they might see an online advertisement or they might hear about us on the radio/newspaper etc but to most of those people they don't know what the fuck is going on in WWE (Given up on it) and don't know what AEW, ROH, Impact, NJPW etc is.
> 
> ...


Casual fans is not a thing. It's just a fuzzy term which can't be adequately defined. If you believe of the major promotions aew is less inclined to draw "casuals", then that group must be disproportionately female & +50, because aew leads or is equal in males in the demo. A smarter or more sensible argument would be increasing viewers in certain demos.

Any conclusion based on a crowd at a Sydney indie show should be dismissed on the basis of small sample size.


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## .christopher. (Jan 14, 2014)

TeamFlareZakk said:


> Its a wrestling promotion, so its audience should be wrestling fans! Screw the "casual fans" they dont even love wrestling, why cater to them when they hate this? Catering to them is how WWE became a clown show to begin with.


Catering to them created the greatest era in wrestling history.


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## the_flock (Nov 23, 2016)

PhenomenalOne11 said:


> Sounds like someone who can't draw casual fans.


Punk had been the biggest disappointment of the year. Everyone was expecting big things from him, but he's failed. Which is probably why WWE didn't go all in for him.


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## shandcraig (Mar 23, 2008)

Punk trying to save face. There has been a local wrestling promotion here since late 90s. Late summer for the first time a new local promotion has popped up. From its first show they have pretty much already out grown the other promotion. Its a much better ran business with a lot better vision and everything else. Marketing is beyond anything the other promotion ever had. They have had a lot of people I've never seen going to these shows. I think like I said in the other thread it's a lot more to do with how un cool and unrelatible these promotions are. It's a small example of course but still. All my friends from childhood like millions other all say the same thing. Characters and storylines are boring.


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## Don Draper's Ghost (Sep 22, 2021)

Bullshit, he's only saying this because of the CM Punk can't move the needle like Rock and Cena comments. If there aren't any casual fans why don't Dynamite and Rampage beat Raw and Smackdown in the ratings?

We always hear that WWE having a bigger brand name and more history is why but if both companies are on an even playing field competing for hardcore fans, shouldn't their shows consistently be beating WWE's? 

Tony and others in the company flat out say guys like Punk and Bryan can help bring in new fans. If there aren't any casuals who the hell are they bringing in? Smarks are already watching AEW. 

Hardcore fans know about both WWE and AEW and they like AEW way more so if we live in a no casual, hardcore smark only world the 1.5-2.1m weekly Raw and Smackdown viewers would've left WWE along time ago for AEW.


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## shandcraig (Mar 23, 2008)

the_flock said:


> Punk had been the biggest disappointment of the year. Everyone was expecting big things from him, but he's failed. Which is probably why WWE didn't go all in for him.



I don't think it matters if he was his bitchy old self or went back to wwe, it wouldn't have made a difference. Some people get lucky with 1 good run.


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## the_flock (Nov 23, 2016)

The Raw Smackdown said:


> THAT'S WHAT I'VE BEEN SAYING!
> 
> Glad that Punk gets it though. Casual fans don't really exist anymore and they haven't for a long ass time. Wrestling is too niche to have casuals I feel like.
> 
> All that's really left is the hardcore so AEW is right in what they're doing in catering to them. Don't get why they get flack for that.


Wrestling might be niche, but that doesn't mean there aren't casual fans still out there, in fact there's millions. It's just AEW doesn't appeal to them. 

Instead of going mainstream, AEW went the other way, they aimed their company at Internet fans. Now they're sat there saying there's no casual fans.


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## La Parka (Oct 28, 2008)

Every business has casuals / potential customers.

AEW fans dismiss them to cover up the fact that they don’t want AEW to grow because then AEW isn’t “cool” to them.

It’s like the bar band that finally got out of the bar and it’s old fan base insists that they suck now and sold out.

It’s easier to say it’s impossible for AEW to grow than it is to say to yourself that you don’t want your favourite wrestling company to grow because it’ll no longer be the niche hobby you have to yourself


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## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

Gwi1890 said:


> Im assuming it’s a small promotion you run? I have no idea , there are small part time promotions running in the uk they perform in community centres and bingo halls of course they are going to draw non fanatics fans who want to take their kids for a day out similar to the circus and fun fair, don’t get me wrong If I wanted to take my kids to their first event it would probably be something along those lines but there’s a reason it’s not on tv


Yeah small promotion although I'm a small step above bingo halls and community centres.

The only reason TV networks wouldn't give your average independent a go is lack of money and lack of starpower. I'm sure if I went up to a television network here in Australia, said I'm willing to run a big time wrestling show on the network free of charge and here's 10 big stars I have on board they'd probably take me on.



jameehayter said:


> Any conclusion based on a crowd at a Sydney indie show should be dismissed on the basis of small sample size.


There are these types all around the world, I know many large indies in the States that draw huge numbers for an independent that feature people coming out because its the only thing they know apart from WWE.


----------



## jameehayter (Nov 16, 2021)

Chip Chipperson said:


> Yeah small promotion although I'm a small step above bingo halls and community centres.
> 
> The only reason TV networks wouldn't give your average independent a go is lack of money and lack of starpower. I'm sure if I went up to a television network here in Australia, said I'm willing to run a big time wrestling show on the network free of charge and here's 10 big stars I have on board they'd probably take me on.
> 
> ...


In Australia the equivalent of a bingo hall or community center would be rsl's, music venues or scout halls. The next tier above would be entertainment centers. No independent presently here is runnings rooms that size.

Hate to burst your bubble but no local independent is anywhere close to ending up on TV. Pure fantasy


----------



## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

jameehayter said:


> In Australia the equivalent of a bingo hall or community center would be rsl's, music venues or scout halls. The next tier above would be entertainment centers. No independent presently here is runnings rooms that size.
> 
> Hate to burst your bubble but no local independent is anywhere close to ending up on TV. Pure fantasy


The Australian equivalent of a bingo hall or a community centre wouldn't be a bingo hall or a community centre? Lol. We do have those things you know.

Local indies with a budget could end up on TV. We've seen that with many promotions ECW and ROH to name two.


----------



## 5 Star Giulia ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ (Apr 21, 2014)

*There are still casuals. 1 million of them just stopped giving a fuck watching you face random jobbers every week.*


----------



## the_flock (Nov 23, 2016)

Chip Chipperson said:


> The Australian equivalent of a bingo hall or a community centre wouldn't be a bingo hall or a community centre? Lol. We do have those things you know.
> 
> Local indies with a budget could end up on TV. We've seen that with many promotions ECW and ROH to name two.


I don't think tv is the be all and end all in this day and age. 

There's so many different forms of media available.


----------



## the_flock (Nov 23, 2016)

The Legit DMD said:


> *There are still casuals. 1 million of them just stopped giving a fuck watching you face random jobbers every week.*


Which funnily enough is what Jim Cornette said before Punk and Bryan debuted. 

He said along the lines of its all well and good getting people like Punk in, but if you're going to have them fight jobbers every week, what's the point, it doesn't elevate anyone, if anything it does the opposite, it makes genuine stars like Punk look worthless. 

That's exactly what's happened. 

He also said, that Adam Page had been the number 1 contender for months, they need to put the title on him before Punk and Bryan and any other big stars get there, otherwise him winning the title whilst they're around makes the company look like shit. 

Again exactly what's happened.


----------



## jameehayter (Nov 16, 2021)

Chip Chipperson said:


> The Australian equivalent of a bingo hall or a community centre wouldn't be a bingo hall or a community centre? Lol. We do have those things you know.
> 
> Local indies with a budget could end up on TV. We've seen that with many promotions ECW and ROH to name two.


There are thousands of TV stations in the USA & many more channels. Thats simply not the case here where the system is more consolidated. 

ECW & ROH both had a far greater following, level of exposure & let's face were leagues above in terms of quality.

It's naive to draw any comparison to the USA scene..


----------



## the_flock (Nov 23, 2016)

Chip Chipperson said:


> There are these types all around the world, I know many large indies in the States that draw huge numbers for an independent that feature people coming out because its the only thing they know apart from WWE.


I've literally seen very small Indies in the UK, where they've had guys the equivalent of the Bushwhackers/Sheepherders as headliners and drawn 200 people per night. 

I've seen local Indie shows with Joe Henry and Magnus as headliners draw 1000 people. Which is the equivalent of what WCW was doing in their dying days. 

There are huge markets out there. In the UK from the mid 90s they literally made a market out of touring holiday camps and hitting all the seaside resorts and drew big numbers featuring guys like Fake Undertaker. 

People go to watch wrestling like they go to watch the circus or theatre, simply for a night of entertainment away from the TV. The AEW fans can dismiss that there aren't any casual fans left all they like, we know there are millions out there, who simply can't afford to waste hours watching wrestling on TV, especially when they have box sets to binge watch and have families and other commitments like work.


----------



## PhenomenalOne11 (Oct 2, 2016)

the_flock said:


> Which funnily enough is what Jim Cornette said before Punk and Bryan debuted.
> 
> He said along the lines of its all well and good getting people like Punk in, but if you're going to have them fight jobbers every week, what's the point, it doesn't elevate anyone, if anything it does the opposite, it makes genuine stars like Punk look worthless.
> 
> ...


Jim Cornette was right again.


----------



## Randy Lahey (Apr 14, 2014)

Punk is right in that there is no one in wrestling that is going to have the effect of a Conor McGregor did in UFC, or Mike Tyson in boxing. 

People who never regularly watch UFC would tune in to see a McGregor fight. Or boxing back in the day with Tyson. Wrestling doesn’t have that draw.


----------



## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

jameehayter said:


> There are thousands of TV stations in the USA & many more channels. Thats simply not the case here where the system is more consolidated.
> 
> ECW & ROH both had a far greater following, level of exposure & let's face were leagues above in terms of quality.
> 
> It's naive to draw any comparison to the USA scene..


What shows have you gone to over here? There's some great wrestlers here in Aus, maybe you had a bad experience.


----------



## Gwi1890 (Nov 7, 2019)

Chip Chipperson said:


> What shows have you gone to over here? There's some great wrestlers here in Aus, maybe you had a bad experience.


then name them? I certainly don’t who they are, Are there any YouTube links to your shows so we can make our own informed decision that the product is good? Catering to the casuals In your view is having big stars ? Yet as a fan who watches a fair bit of wrestling I don’t have a clue who any Aus promotions are


----------



## La Parka (Oct 28, 2008)

Gwi1890 said:


> then name them? I certainly don’t who they are, Are there any YouTube links to your shows so we can make our own informed decision that the product is good? Catering to the casuals In your view is having big stars ? Yet as a fan who watches a fair bit of wrestling I don’t have a clue who any Aus promotions are


just by googling "Australian wrestling" i found






I fail to see how any of the above is worse than some of AEW's lolworthy talent.


----------



## Gwi1890 (Nov 7, 2019)

La Parka said:


> just by googling "Australian wrestling" i found
> 
> 
> 
> ...


it was a good watch but o be fair, but aren’t they these “flippy geeks” that AEW haters keep moaning about no storyline 100 mile per hour not a moment to process and breathe? I thought it was good but it’s no different to what AEW offers


----------



## LongPig666 (Mar 27, 2019)

attituderocks said:


> “I don’t know if everybody who was a WWE fan came over here specifically just to watch me but what I recognize in front of an AEW audience is an audience that I used to wrestle in front of prior to coming to the WWE. They’re wrestling fans yanno and I will never understand the criticism of appealing to your fan base. If this is our fan base, give them what they want and everybody’s happy. Now I understand building a business, people talk about trying to get casuals here, I don’t think there’s casual wrestling fans anymore. My opinion, maybe I’m wrong and maybe somebody at TNT is going to get mad because I’m saying this and am of this opinion but our fans are wrestling fans and we give them wrestling.”


Punk is right on three things. 

First, It was never going to be just WWE fans who switched, the majority was always going to be new and existing (niche) AEW wrestling fans who enjoy all wrestling - past and present, including ROH 15 years ago and secondly, what on earth is wrong with focusing on your current fan base - it makes good business sense! Lastly, for AEW, there are no casuals YET, they will come when AEW have got an established consistent brand over a few years; then the "casuals" may appear. But that won't be fans from WWE - thankfully!

Again, a pro-wrestler mentions "casuals" in a niche world and the sheep of Russo and Cornette (two terds from the same shit coin) come out from under their rocks to scream that (AEW) modern wrestling only exists because the SJW woke smarks were bullied by the "casual" jocks and alpha males so hate casuals trying to "take their flippy midgets from them". Russo actually said this!!!


----------



## Erik. (Mar 17, 2014)

As I mentioned before

Casual fans' is an outdated concept that existed decades ago when you had about 20 TV channels and you didn't have shit to do on a Monday or Wednesday night and you stumbled across something different. These conditions just don't exist anymore.

Casual fans are the outliers now in EVERY fandom because of the internet. Look at any fandom.

Imagine booking your entire product to appeal a random guy who may be or may not be zapping the channels on Wednesday nights or have an AEW post appear on their instagram feed because of an algorithm, instead of booking for the 1 million of people who follow your promotion religiously.

Does anyone even channel surf anymore!!?


----------



## La Parka (Oct 28, 2008)

Gwi1890 said:


> it was a good watch but o be fair, but aren’t they these “flippy geeks” that AEW haters keep moaning about no storyline 100 mile per hour not a moment to process and breathe? I thought it was good but it’s no different to what AEW offers


They kind of are but the other poster seemed to indicate that it was fantasy to suggest that the Indy companies in Australia could make it on TV while AEW does basically the same type of thing (and often worse) and yet he’s a big fan


----------



## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

Gwi1890 said:


> then name them? I certainly don’t who they are, Are there any YouTube links to your shows so we can make our own informed decision that the product is good? Catering to the casuals In your view is having big stars ? Yet as a fan who watches a fair bit of wrestling I don’t have a clue who any Aus promotions are


Some of our top wrestlers getting around on our independent circuit this year include:

Adam Brooks (Former ROH Signee but didn't debut unfortunately)

Damian Slater (Appearances with NJPW and WWE, bit of a big fish in a small pond these days though)

Kellyanne (Like Brooks she was signed to ROH but didn't debut due to COVID)

Madison Eagles (Former Number 1 Rank in Pro Wrestling Illustrated for women's wrestlers)

Mikey Nicholls (NJPW, NOAH and WWE)

Orlando Jordan (Wasn't around this year due to injury) (Formerly of NJPW, TNA and WWE)

Rionne Fujiwara (Formerly of AJPW, NOAH and Wrestle-1)

Robbie Eagles (Former IWGP Junior Heavyweight and Current IWGP Junior Tag Team Champion)

Slex (Former NJPW, NOAH and ROH)

---

Then there's about 10-15 over in the United States who have been signed this includes Buddy Murphy, Iiconics, Tenille Dashwood, Grayson Waller, Rhea Ripley, Shane Haste and a whole heap of others.

Not many HUGE stars (Murphy or Ripley probably our biggest) but its a pretty fun scene down here. Someone like Robbie Eagles winning the IWGP Junior Heavyweight Title is absolutely massive for us still whilst if an American won it then it'd kind of be like "Oh yeah, cool"

Most of the guys and girls above are tops as well. They aren't big stars internationally but if I wanted to book say...Adam Brooks I know he wouldn't try and rob me blind or work me because here in Australia we all want to grow the business.



La Parka said:


> just by googling "Australian wrestling" i found
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah that's Adam Brooks and Slex. Two phenomenal wrestlers based out of Melbourne. Just before the pandemic Adam Brooks was set to make his ROH debut against Slex but COVID ruined it.



Gwi1890 said:


> it was a good watch but o be fair, but aren’t they these “flippy geeks” that AEW haters keep moaning about no storyline 100 mile per hour not a moment to process and breathe? I thought it was good but it’s no different to what AEW offers


This promotion is called MCW and they are very into that style there. Both Brooksy and Slex could no doubt slow it down and work a traditional match also.

Two incredible talents, in a way we're lucky to have them although I'm bummed that they didn't get to go to ROH.


----------



## Irish Jet (Nov 15, 2011)

What a ridiculous statement. Their own fluctuation in ratings completely disproves what he's saying.


----------



## Erik. (Mar 17, 2014)

Worth noting that in the same scrum, Tony Kahn addressed this too, specifically about how with DVR and app streaming (FITE) they have a lot more viewers than the ratings, especially the "fast nationals" WWE keeps leaking, but that once those numbers come out, it's a week or more later and it's not "newsworthy" anymore.

He mentioned as an example that one SmackDown on FS1 where WWE decided to go head to head with them for that half hour, once all those numbers came in, they actually beat the entirety of the WWE's broadcast, including the 8-10 WWE ran alone.

We need to stop living in 1999.

Then again, no one seems to be able to tell me what a casual is in 2021, everytime I ask the question I get a different answer.

Am I a casual? I rarely watch live unless it's a big Dynamite show or PPV.

Punk and Bryan are great but they're not enough for me to watch live because well, I can just watch them when I can, whenever I want.


----------



## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

Chip Chipperson said:


> *I promote my shows here in Sydney and generally I'm drawing maybe 75% casual fans and 25% smart mark.*


that is not a 'casual fan' / that is just 'a fan'

a 'casual fan' would be someone who walked the streets of Sydney on a whim with his girlfriend, looking for a spot to eat. They walk past a bingo hall and hear a commotion inside.

they go to the doorman and ask 'hey, what is going on in there, is it a club? I saw through the window two large slow and oiled men kinda hold each other. What is this?'

The doorman goes 'this kind sir, is Sydney's forth most famous folk style professional wrestling promotion, Chips' Dips Real Folkstyle Rasslin'. 10 bucks gets you a ticket and the lady goes in for free, cause having one girl will be a great change of pace'

The couple look at each other and he says 'what do you think babydoll? I think i saw this once in my childhood and it might be a good night out?' and she's like 'sure babe, maybe we'll learn something for later regarding oil and oily men - I'm not hungry anyways'

and they pay their 10 bucks and you have officially drawn your first 'casual fan'

anybody who saw your promotional material and planned the night out - is just 'a fan'


----------



## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

LifeInCattleClass said:


> that is not a 'casual fan' / that is just 'a fan'
> 
> a 'casual fan' would be someone who walked the streets of Sydney on a whim with his girlfriend, looking for a spot to eat. They walk past a bingo hall and hear a commotion inside.
> 
> ...


Accurate except 10 bucks doesn't get you a ticket to my gig.


----------



## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

Chip Chipperson said:


> Accurate except 10 bucks doesn't get you a ticket to my gig.


well, I was being facetious, but you get the gist

20 bucks?


----------



## RapShepard (Jun 20, 2014)

Kopros_The_Great said:


> There is no such thing as a "casual fanatic", never was. They're mutually exclusive. Either you casually watch it or you're a fan. Anything else is an oxymoron, and the whole discussion is fucking asinine and only shows how far wrestling fans have their heads stuck up their own asses.


This is a very ridiculous statement. Put it like this there's levels to 

Someone who's seen some of the Star Wars

Someone who's seen all of the Star Wars

Someone who's seen all of the Star Wars, collects the merch, and wants to venture to comic con to meet the stars. 




Erik. said:


> As I mentioned before
> 
> Casual fans' is an outdated concept that existed decades ago when you had about 20 TV channels and you didn't have shit to do on a Monday or Wednesday night and you stumbled across something different. These conditions just don't exist anymore.
> 
> ...


I think a lot of y'all get this wrong idea that you can't both appeal to your diehard fans, while also including things that can bring in casuals in the hopes of getting new permanent fans. Are AEW fans really going to stop watching if say less time was given to Dante Martin to have low card matches with low stakes and more time was giving to say an MJF to tell stories and wrestle on Dynamite and Rampage?



Erik. said:


> Worth noting that in the same scrum, Tony Kahn addressed this too, specifically about how with DVR and app streaming (FITE) they have a lot more viewers than the ratings, especially the "fast nationals" WWE keeps leaking, but that once those numbers come out, it's a week or more later and it's not "newsworthy" anymore.
> 
> He mentioned as an example that one SmackDown on FS1 where WWE decided to go head to head with them for that half hour, once all those numbers came in, they actually beat the entirety of the WWE's broadcast, including the 8-10 WWE ran alone.
> 
> ...


You're on a wrestling forum nobody here is casual. But a casual would be somebody casually into wrestling. They're not watching religiously or looking up behind the scenes info.


----------



## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

RapShepard said:


> You're on a wrestling forum nobody here is casual. But a casual would be somebody casually into wrestling. They're not watching religiously or looking up behind the scenes info.


that's just 'a fan'


----------



## Erik. (Mar 17, 2014)

RapShepard said:


> You're on a wrestling forum nobody here is casual. But a casual would be somebody casually into wrestling. They're not watching religiously or looking up behind the scenes info.


So a casual is someone that just watches wrestling?

Isn't that just a fan?

As opposed to the "channel surfers" people get confused over?


----------



## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

Erik. said:


> So a casual is someone that just watches wrestling?
> 
> Isn't that just a fan?
> 
> As opposed to the "channel surfers" people get confused over?


this.

channel surfers you hope flips the channel and lands on wrestling and thinks 'oh, let me watch this for 10 min before housewives of Alaska comes on' are not 'casual fans'

in fact - 'casual fan' is just a description because fans feel the need to define their status of engagement with the product they are watching

people are just 'fans'

in all online definitions i've read - a casual fan is really a fan by another name

edit> read this and tell me that doesn't just sound like 'fan' --> The 5 Types of Fans: Part 3 - Casual Fans - Watch FANTOM

in fact, you can have hardcore fans of WWE, being casual fans of AEW (as some on this board clearly are)

but that does not make them a 'casual fan' of wrestling.


----------



## Erik. (Mar 17, 2014)

LifeInCattleClass said:


> this.
> 
> channel surfers you hope flips the channel and lands on wrestling and thinks 'oh, let me watch this for 10 min before housewives of Alaska comes on' are not 'casual fans'
> 
> ...


Basically this.

As mentioned, its an outdated concept from a time where channel surfing the 20 odd channels you had, trying to find something to watch on a Monday night actually happened.

No one is channel surfing in 2021, let alone to watch wrestling they've never seen before.

Appealing to a fanbase is THE number one reason AEW has been successful. They were never going to garner the same audience as WWE, getting kind of close is crazy in itself, outselling them in tickets is mental.

But the percentage of that audience they're able to convert into loyal paying customers is what has made them viable for years to come.

As the creator of The Wire, one of the greatest TV shows to ever grace television, once said :

"Fuck the casual viewer. Seriously, who wants a casual viewer? If you’re a writer do you want a casual reader? I don’t want those people. Don’t want ‘em. Throwing them back. They’re like little fish on the hook. Throw ‘em back. I want the guy who’s come in who wants to be told a story. A story has a beginning, middle and an end."


----------



## Charzhino (Nov 20, 2007)

Sherlok4 said:


> So he is basically saying that pro wrestling is nothing more than a niche product at this point
> 
> Take the UFC as an example, his former employer, the reason it is so popular is because of casual fans that tune in for the big cards, or for a fight like CM Punk vs Mickey Gall
> 
> ...


Same can be said with boxing. The boxing scene was at an all time low (esp in the UK) in the mid-2000s. Then comes along David Haye, Anthony Joshua, Tyson Fury, Deontay Wilder and the heavyweight division is populated with these larger than life personalities along with others which attracts scores of casual fans, like me, to tune in, watch and buy the big fights on PPV. Wrestling should be no different to the same concepts of drawing casuals to sports entertainment, which UFC and boxing is at the end of the day.


----------



## RapShepard (Jun 20, 2014)

Erik. said:


> So a casual is someone that just watches wrestling?
> 
> Isn't that just a fan?
> 
> As opposed to the "channel surfers" people get confused over?


A casual fan usually is in reference to those people that don't watch religiously, but will tune in when something interesting is happening. Think of the acknowledged normal WrestleMania bump or how in MMA you get fans that will come out the woodworks to watch a McGregor and to lesser extents a Jones, Diaz, or Masvidal. Your diehard fans are going to watch regardless, but if you can find things that make those casuals turn into weekly fans or diehards they bump their ratings up, ticket sales up, and merchandise sales.


----------



## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

Erik. said:


> Basically this.
> 
> As mentioned, its an outdated concept from a time where channel surfing the 20 odd channels you had, trying to find something to watch on a Monday night actually happened.
> 
> ...


well, the creator of 'the wire' is spot-on


----------



## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

RapShepard said:


> A casual fan usually is in reference to those people that don't watch religiously, but will tune in when something interesting is happening. Think of the acknowledged normal WrestleMania bump or how in MMA you get fans that will come out the woodworks to watch a McGregor and to lesser extents a Jones, Diaz, or Masvidal. Your diehard fans are going to watch regardless, but if you can find things that make those casuals turn into weekly fans or diehards they bump their ratings up, ticket sales up, and merchandise sales.


again - that is just a 'fan' mate - wanting to define it as 'casual' or not is kinda whatever

but this is the type of person Punk was talking about anyway - someone in your description as 'casual' - he sees as a 'wrestling fan' in his chat

therefore, this is the person they want to focus on

in the end, you all then agree with punk


----------



## hardcorewrasslin (Jun 29, 2016)

phatbob426 said:


> Casual fans like kayfabe.
> 
> Modern wrestlers with very few exceptions have zero regard for kayfabe. The disregard for kayfabe is so predominant that the entire product is a parody or SNL version of the wrestling product which attracts "the casual fan".


I dunno about you but most casual fans I know love going out of their way to point out how fake it looks. The only people who care for kayfabe are die hard fans lol


----------



## Erik. (Mar 17, 2014)

RapShepard said:


> A casual fan usually is in reference to those people that don't watch religiously, but will tune in when something interesting is happening. Think of the acknowledged normal WrestleMania bump or how in MMA you get fans that will come out the woodworks to watch a McGregor and to lesser extents a Jones, Diaz, or Masvidal. Your diehard fans are going to watch regardless, but if you can find things that make those casuals turn into weekly fans or diehards they bump their ratings up, ticket sales up, and merchandise sales.


But if I was to hazard a guess, these are the type of 'fans' that don't want to watch weekly. Otherwise they would be doing. They're not die hard. They are the FOMO fans more than anything. 

In the same way, that Id say youve labeled me there as the guy who will tune in to watch a big MMA fight (and watch illegally) but I genuinely don't care enough to watch other fights and nothing they do is changing my mind on that.

And I can respect that definition you've given of a casual. But that's definitely not what a casual was in the 90s that people seem to mistake when saying AEW needs to bring in the casuals. Its a different world we live in. Casuals today I'd say are more 'lapsed' than new viewers like say the 90s were. 

Rampage supposedly gets 1,000,000+ viewers every week when factoring in the DVR+7 numbers. Showing that more than the 500k watch, just not live.


----------



## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

Erik. said:


> But if I was to hazard a guess, these are the type of 'fans' that don't want to watch weekly. Otherwise they would be doing. They're not die hard. They are the FOMO fans more than anything.
> 
> In the same way, that Id say youve labeled me there as the guy who will tune in to watch a big MMA fight (and watch illegally) but I genuinely don't care enough to watch other fights and nothing they do is changing my mind on that.
> 
> ...


maybe its more 'fairweather fans' by that description?

only watch when something monumental happens


----------



## Erik. (Mar 17, 2014)

LifeInCattleClass said:


> maybe its more 'fairweather fans' by that description?
> 
> only watch when something monumental happens


Could also be that.

But you can't just put monumental things on TV each week to get these guys to watch. 

These aren't the guys you need watching your show each week. Especially if they're just gonna tune in regardless whenever something big happens.

I think AEW are doing fine. When your merch sales, PPV buys and attendance records are all up. You probably shouldn't focus too much on live ratings in an era full of ways of actually watching live entertainment.

When your merch sales halt. When your attendances start to dwindle, when your PPV buys start going down from the norm and you're no longer one of the best rated shows on TV during your time slot, then you worry.

Basically, AEW and TNT are happy with the metrics us normal folk can't actually get access too. That's enough.


----------



## Freelancer (Aug 24, 2010)

He's somewhat right. There are a few causals left, but they tend to only watch WWE because they probably never heard of AEW.


----------



## RapShepard (Jun 20, 2014)

LifeInCattleClass said:


> again - that is just a 'fan' mate - wanting to define it as 'casual' or not is kinda whatever
> 
> but this is the type of person Punk was talking about anyway - someone in your description as 'casual' - he sees as a 'wrestling fan' in his chat
> 
> ...


Let's put it like this. If Tony could choose whether a fan watches religiously or occasionally what do you think he'd pick? You don't go so different you alienate your hardcore fans, but nothing wrong with trying to tinker in see if you can get more consistent and possibly bigger viewership. 



Erik. said:


> But if I was to hazard a guess, these are the type of 'fans' that don't want to watch weekly. Otherwise they would be doing. They're not die hard. They are the FOMO fans more than anything.
> 
> In the same way, that Id say youve labeled me there as the guy who will tune in to watch a big MMA fight (and watch illegally) but I genuinely don't care enough to watch other fights and nothing they do is changing my mind on that.
> 
> ...


And while you may not care enough to watch every UFC card, it's still good business for the UFC to try and put on fights that may draw fans in your boat in. A fan like me who watches every card they don't really need to sell to because if they're face punching and grappling I'm in.


----------



## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

RapShepard said:


> Let's put it like this. If Tony could choose whether a fan watches religiously or occasionally what do you think he'd pick? You don't go so different you alienate your hardcore fans, but nothing wrong with trying to tinker in see if you can get more consistent and possibly bigger viewership.


i think you and them are on the same page


----------



## Sad Panda (Aug 16, 2021)

Freelancer said:


> He's somewhat right. There are a few causals left, but they tend to only watch WWE because they probably never heard of AEW.


Yup.. WWE has a, what? 50 year head start and foot hole?


----------



## Erik. (Mar 17, 2014)

RapShepard said:


> And while you may not care enough to watch every UFC card, it's still good business for the UFC to try and put on fights that may draw fans in your boat in. A fan like me who watches every card they don't really need to sell to because if they're face punching and grappling I'm in.


Absolutely.

And that's my point.

AEW should be putting there shows on for those loyal million+ that tune in every week. If the 'casuals' are going to tune in for the big moments, big matches and PPVs, then thats not really going to change.

Because it's proven to work. AEWs new fans or increase in fanbase isn't going to be from these so called casuals, its going to come from WWE fans who have decided to give AEW a chance and enjoy it or the younger children who are getting into wrestling for the first time.


----------



## GothicBohemian (May 26, 2012)

I agree with Punk's assessment. The media landscape has changed, especially over the last 5-6 years.

As for defining a 'casual fan', I don't see the point. I post here yet, compared to those who watch all the YouTube shows and follow Twitter accounts, I'm a 'casual' who mainly checks out the televised shows (not on tv, of course!).


----------



## shandcraig (Mar 23, 2008)

Tony is such a mark.running a business and being like this I feel is going to hurt aew when he obssese over random shit like this.


----------



## Blade Runner (Jan 24, 2012)

Casual fans would watch if the product showcased larger-than-life characters in compelling storylines/feuds on a consistant basis.

No amount of wrestling on its own will draw casual fans. As far as wrestling goes, a casual fan _might_ be interested in seeing a match play out if they accidently fall on some crazy/insane series of moves being performed, but rarely will tune in to watch a show consisting mostly of 20+ minute matches with guys that they don't care about because they'll get bored quickly. Casuals would dig compilations of craziest moments in matches on YouTube but that's about the extent of it. They won't stick around unless they CARE about the characters and are given enough emotional investment to see them fight someone on the show.

That's why the AE was so popular. Cool characters, crazy and suspenseful storylines and TV matches that didn't extend beyond a commercial break. PPVs had longer matches and were reserved for feuds that people cared about.


----------



## Natsuke (Dec 2, 2009)

Casual wrestling fan in 2021?

Here's the thing: the 'Casual Wrestling Fan' was really just a fan that watched the Attitude Era back when it was legit the coolest thing to do. They know the Rock, Stone Cold, Undertaker, WCW, etc.. but you'd be hard pressed for them to know who the hell The New Day is, much less The Elite.


----------



## Prosper (Mar 25, 2015)

Chip Chipperson said:


> Well, you can't attract the mainstream in 3 months this is moreso something you can start planning and executing now and maybe see big changes 3 years from now.
> 
> Boring answer but the main thing I'd do is hire a really good publicity team and I'd be utilising my most famous stars in Jericho, Bryan and Punk to go out there and be interviewed. Probably not going to see Punk turn up on Conan but mid tier MMA shows or average late night shows? Definitely doable.
> 
> You'd also have to make the product more attractive to the casuals though. Big characters, crazy shit happening, compelling storylines and television, can't miss wrestlers, big names, hot women etc. That'd probably mean getting the book out of Tony's paws and putting it in someone's hands who is somewhat competent though and that'll never happen...


Well I'm sure they are trying to get their stars on these shows, it's not like its something that's automatic. Late night shows are based around celebrities for the most part. The active talent in the industry are nowhere near REAL celebrity status. It's doable but you don't know the process in how these things get done. The average viewer watching Conan is looking to see their favorite actor/actress/musician interviewed. 95% of those people are not sticking around for a pro wrestling based interview because that's not the audience's interest. And even if they did, what could Punk, Moxley, Omega, or Bryan possibly say late night to convince people to watch wrestling? "This week we're gonna have a live sex celebration in the middle of the ring! Tune in to see us do it better than Edge and Lita!" Come on my guy. Wrestling is niche. I think you think wrestling is some kind of widely appealing thing to people outside of the core audience but its just not. What's appealing in 2021 is reality TV, which Cody has already jumped all over.

WWE has gotten their stars on these larger interview platforms in the past just based on brand recognition and how is it going for them? Ronda Rousey and Brock Lesnar have been everywhere, are they increasing WWE's mainstream appeal? Absolutely not. They are instead bashed on social media for going from a "real" sport to a "fake" one. But you know what is appealing to the mainstream in WWE? Total Divas, The Bella Twins show, and the Miz's reality show.

AEW has big characters (you can't compare "big" today to "big" in the Hogan/Macho Man era, that's not a fair comparison considering the climate), they have crazy shit happening ALL the time, compelling storylines are subjective to the viewer, can't miss wrestlers are subjective to the viewer, (the Austin/McMahon story and the Macho Man character weren't appealing to everyone you know that right?), they have the biggest names they could get right now outside of Tessa and Okada, their women are hot AF in Tay Conti, Penelope Ford, Britt Baker, Anna Jay, Brandi, etc.

I don't think you know the answer as no one does. Tony Khan is doing great, and using the "mainstream" argument is just something you and some others like to beat the company over the head with. It's an evergreen argument. Who should Tony give his company to? Jim Cornette? Vince Russo? Bruce Pritchard? I've seen your booking ideas here and I've seen others as well and a lot of what I see is nowhere near as appealing as what we are getting now. I don't remember the poster's name but there was a guy who made a thread recently bashing Tony Khan as the worst booker and his bright idea was to have Hangman lose to Omega and put him in an all out feud with DO after Full Gear. Like what? The only reason they're at this point is because of Tony's largely attractive booking style and his way of presenting talent. If he was so bad they wouldn't be on the air and they'd have been canceled last year. Instead they're exceeding expectations (through the pandemic) and knocking it out of the park. You have no intention of giving Tony any credit and it was apparent when you gave him no credit for signing Punk, (maybe you did and I missed it), something that you and The Wood spent 12-15 months posting about in length as a failure on AEW's part when in actuality they were talking the whole time and waiting for crowds to return.


----------



## GothicBohemian (May 26, 2012)

KYRA BATARA said:


> *Casual fans would watch if the product showcased larger-than-life characters in compelling storylines/feuds on a consistant basis.*
> 
> No amount of wrestling on its own will draw casual fans. As far as wrestling goes, a casual fan _might_ be interested in seeing a match play out if they accidently fall on some crazy/insane series of moves being performed, but rarely will tune in to watch a show consisting mostly of 20+ minute matches with guys that they don't care about because they'll get bored quickly. Casuals would dig compilations of craziest moments in matches on YouTube but that's about the extent of it. They won't stick around unless they CARE about the characters and are given enough emotional investment to see them fight someone on the show.
> 
> That's why the AE was so popular. Cool characters, crazy and suspenseful storylines and TV matches that didn't extend beyond a commercial break. PPVs had longer matches and were reserved for feuds that people cared about.


But that isn't what many of AEW's current fans want to see. I'm not sure chasing potential fans who might like something (especially when there's no proof this will attract them in 2021) while alienating the fans you have is wise.

People don't consume random media just because it's there anymore. The only people channel surfing on cable are, well, they're old folks and even most of them have moved on to targeted subscription services. The best way to get someone who isn't already a fan to look at wrestling is to bring the show to them live and on social media. In a lot of cases, the types of matches that many older fans complain about are the same ones that live crowds pop for. Sure, people like to boo and cheer compelling mic work - look at MJF and Eddie Kingston - but that's not all they want anymore. Or, I suppose I should say that's not all the newer generations of wrestling fans want. Fans today demand a mix of action and story, and most aren't as into the kind of content the Attitude Era was focused on. Pro wrestling needs to play to the fans it has and the wider culture it exists in, not the fans it had and the way things were twenty years ago. Imo, of course.



Prosper said:


> *Well I'm sure they are trying to get their stars on these shows, it's not like its something that's automatic. Late night shows are based around celebrities for the most part*. The active talent in the industry are nowhere near REAL celebrity status. It's doable but you don't know the process in how these things get done. The average viewer watching Conan is looking to see their favorite actor/actress/musician interviewed. 95% of those people are not sticking around for a pro wrestling based interview because that's not the audience's interest. And even if they did, what could Punk, Moxley, Omega, or Bryan possibly say late night to convince people to watch wrestling? "This week we're gonna have a live sex celebration in the middle of the ring! Tune in to see us do it better than Edge and Lita!" Come on my guy. Wrestling is niche. I think you think wrestling is some kind of widely appealing thing to people outside of the core audience but its just not. What's appealing in 2021 is reality TV, which Cody has already jumped all over.
> 
> WWE has gotten their stars on these larger interview platforms in the past just based on brand recognition and how is it going for them? Ronda Rousey and Brock Lesnar have been everywhere, are they increasing WWE's mainstream appeal? Absolutely not. They are instead bashed on social media for going from a "real" sport to a "fake" one. But you know what is appealing to the mainstream in WWE? Total Divas, The Bella Twins show, and the Miz's reality show.


Do people still watch late-night interview shows? I don't know anyone who does, but that could just be how it is where I live.


----------



## validreasoning (Jul 4, 2012)

He is miles off. If that were true then site like this would be very busy not same 10 people. Smackdown here gets what 100 posts for live thread and that's worldwide and yet does over 2m viewers live in the US every week.

Telling me all the kids are hardcore fans or the parents lol


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## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

shandcraig said:


> Tony is such a mark.running a business and being like this I feel is going to hurt aew when he obssese over random shit like this.


this is super out of context - and the byline of 'tk compares punk being boo'd to rock being boo'd' is mega misleading

it was in the post full gear presser - if you watch it, you'll see what i mean


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## jameehayter (Nov 16, 2021)

Chip Chipperson said:


> What shows have you gone to over here? There's some great wrestlers here in Aus, maybe you had a bad experience.


Look at the talent which went through ECW & ROH. Nothing like that in a small market like Australia. Just stop..


----------



## Sad Panda (Aug 16, 2021)

shandcraig said:


> Tony is such a mark.running a business and being like this I feel is going to hurt aew when he obssese over random shit like this.


Why? You can’t be a fan of something and also run a successful business?


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## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

Prosper said:


> Well I'm sure they are trying to get their stars on these shows, it's not like its something that's automatic. Late night shows are based around celebrities for the most part. The active talent in the industry are nowhere near REAL celebrity status. It's doable but you don't know the process in how these things get done. The average viewer watching Conan is looking to see their favorite actor/actress/musician interviewed. 95% of those people are not sticking around for a pro wrestling based interview because that's not the audience's interest. And even if they did, what could Punk, Moxley, Omega, or Bryan possibly say late night to convince people to watch wrestling? "This week we're gonna have a live sex celebration in the middle of the ring! Tune in to see us do it better than Edge and Lita!" Come on my guy. Wrestling is niche. I think you think wrestling is some kind of widely appealing thing to people outside of the core audience but its just not. What's appealing in 2021 is reality TV, which Cody has already jumped all over.
> 
> WWE has gotten their stars on these larger interview platforms in the past just based on brand recognition and how is it going for them? Ronda Rousey and Brock Lesnar have been everywhere, are they increasing WWE's mainstream appeal? Absolutely not. They are instead bashed on social media for going from a "real" sport to a "fake" one. But you know what is appealing to the mainstream in WWE? Total Divas, The Bella Twins show, and the Miz's reality show.
> 
> ...


You're not getting my points.

1. With my point about late night I specifically said AEW probably wouldn't be able to get someone on Conan but there are late night shows that are lesser known who would probably be happy to get a CM Punk or Chris Jericho on. CM Punk could do the rounds on the MMA shows and promote Dynamite.

2. Who does AEW have that's a big character? I'll wait. Kenny acting overly dramatic and Cody being so annoying that he's booed endlessly aren't big characters.

3. Of course you wouldn't like my booking, I'm trying to appeal to a mainstream audience. I could book like Tony also, its actually easier to book for the smarks then the mainstream.

4. I did give Tony credit for signing CM Punk and Daniel Bryan but not for how he used them. 8 figures spent on two guys who have done nothing.



jameehayter said:


> Look at the talent which went through ECW & ROH. Nothing like that in a small market like Australia. Just stop..


Still can't answer me and tell me what you're watching locally though.

We have many talents on the level of ECW guys what we're missing is a booker like Heyman that can get the best out of anyone he comes in contact with. Don't shit on the local scene, many promotions are regularly convincing 300, 400 or 500 people to part with 20, 30 or 40 bucks every month or so to come watch them.


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## shandcraig (Mar 23, 2008)

Sad Panda said:


> Why? You can’t be a fan of something and also run a successful business?



Of course, that wasn't my point.


----------



## shandcraig (Mar 23, 2008)

Chip Chipperson said:


> You're not getting my points.
> 
> 1. With my point about late night I specifically said AEW probably wouldn't be able to get someone on Conan but there are late night shows that are lesser known who would probably be happy to get a CM Punk or Chris Jericho on. CM Punk could do the rounds on the MMA shows and promote Dynamite.
> 
> ...



I get the idea about the booking but punk and Bryan are far from main stream and never will be. Your booking would work indeed for the smarks though. Funny cus everyone brags about the long term booking but they also want punk and Bryan all over the scene and seemed to have side lined everything that built aew up.


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## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

shandcraig said:


> I get the idea about the booking but punk and Bryan are far from main stream and never will be.


If that's true then Tony shouldn't have paid them millions of dollars. He clearly signed these guys to try and bring more fans in but has been unable to past the initial boost.


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## shandcraig (Mar 23, 2008)

Chip Chipperson said:


> If that's true then Tony shouldn't have paid them millions of dollars. He clearly signed these guys to try and bring more fans in but has been unable to past the initial boost.



That's what I was saying. Millions should be spent on the vision of the brand and creative and whatever else to push the product. Focused on elevating the stars they have had since the start.


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## Prosper (Mar 25, 2015)

GothicBohemian said:


> Do people still watch late-night interview shows? I don't know anyone who does, but that could just be how it is where I live.


Not sure what the ratings are compared to network expectations, but I would assume so, I watch every now and then but mostly through Youtube clips. 



Chip Chipperson said:


> You're not getting my points.
> 
> 1. With my point about late night I specifically said AEW probably wouldn't be able to get someone on Conan but there are late night shows that are lesser known who would probably be happy to get a CM Punk or Chris Jericho on. CM Punk could do the rounds on the MMA shows and promote Dynamite.
> 
> ...


1.) You're not going to get to the level of mainstream that you're expecting from All Elite by booking your stars on "lesser known" late night shows that no one watches. The big late night shows in itself is a huge stretch and you're suggesting lesser. Do you know the particulars/details on Punk promoting AEW as an inactive fighter? I doubt Dana White or whoever else will just bring him in to talk about wrestling, because if he's not active in the MMA world then why would the MMA audience (who have no interest in fake sports) listen to him and flock to wrestling? Just because he hopped on to talk about a storyline or his experience in the locker room to a target audience that isn't interested? That doesn't make any sense. 

2.) Well this is subjective as I said. I think Darby, Punk, Bryan, Omega, Cody, Black, Moxley, Jericho, and Jungle Boy are all great characters that are big within the wrestling world right now. You hate AEW with a passion so you will obviously see it differently. As I said before you're not gonna get a Randy Savage level character in 2021 that resonates with an audience that isn't there to begin with. You're a booker and you love wrestling and you think that others should love it at wide scale because its a passion of yours, what I'm telling you is that shit doesn't exist. What in your definition is a big character considering what wrestling is now compared the 90's? 

3.) I'm objective with all booking ideas, I'm not here to feud with you or rip down your ideas over the Internet. There was a booking idea thread I remember you making a while back which I remember agreeing with and saying was better than what Tony had booked in hindsight. Booking for the mainstream would involve making your show more family friendly, I wouldn't say its harder but it would alienate the fanbase that brought AEW to this point. Do you really want a family friendly show? For what? Even then they still have a family friendly character like OC who thousands of kids dress up as. 

4.) If you gave him credit than good on you. You will never give him credit for how they are used though, because Bryan has been used very well thus far. Punk seems to be ramping up pretty significantly since the Kingston feud started and now with his new interview. But you and I know at this point based off of your post history that nothing is good enough from your POV.


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## jameehayter (Nov 16, 2021)

Chip Chipperson said:


> You're not getting my points.
> 
> 1. With my point about late night I specifically said AEW probably wouldn't be able to get someone on Conan but there are late night shows that are lesser known who would probably be happy to get a CM Punk or Chris Jericho on. CM Punk could do the rounds on the MMA shows and promote Dynamite.
> 
> ...


No promotion is currently drawing 500 people. There's no evidence you can produce to support that falsehood.

ECW & ROH were super indies boasting many talent from all around the world, who would go onto to success with major promotions. That also applies just as much to those in creative positions.

For some reason you are presenting Australia, a small country where the sport itself is small, as some glorious oasis of hidden talent. All because you wish to appear as more important than you are & validate your argument. Why not just come up with better arguments??


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## Prosper (Mar 25, 2015)

jameehayter said:


> No promotion is currently drawing 500 people. There's no evidence you can produce to support that falsehood.
> 
> ECW & ROH were super indies boasting many talent from all around the world, who would go onto to success with major promotions. That also applies just as much to those in creative positions.
> 
> For some reason you are presenting Australia, a small country where the sport itself is small, as some glorious oasis of hidden talent. All because you wish to appear as more important than you are & validate your argument. Why not just come up with better arguments??


@Chip Chipperson kind of just argues for the sake of arguing, but I don't think he really thinks things through at a high level.


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## ObsoleteMule (Sep 4, 2016)

hardcorewrasslin said:


> I dunno about you but most casual fans I know love going out of their way to point out how fake it looks. The only people who care for kayfabe are die hard fans lol


This is why im a closet fan. Someone brought up Ronda Rousey going to the WWE a few years back and everyone in the workplace shit on pro wrestling for like a solid 10 minutes. I love wrestling but I’m not gonna pretend like this isnt super lame shit by today’s standards


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## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

jameehayter said:


> No promotion is currently drawing 500 people. There's no evidence you can produce to support that falsehood.


Will pictures do?

1100 paid:










650 paid:










This one was around 600 also:










This one was announced as 400 paid:










This was announced as about 400:










350-400:










---

This is just New South Wales by the way. Melbourne City Wrestling does 400-500 regularly and for special events can hit over 500, EPW in Perth have done plenty of big houses as well.

It isn't my desire to paint myself as important I've said I'm just a regular dude that draws average houses but when you suggest that the scene here is the equivalent of community centres and bingo halls then yeah, I'll stand up and say you're wrong about that.

Do any of these buildings resemble dirty run down places where you'd normally see a low tier shit indy? No. We have some of that but they're very much the minority.


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## jameehayter (Nov 16, 2021)

Chip Chipperson said:


> Will pictures do?
> 
> 1100 paid:
> 
> ...


There's an old expression which goes baffle them with bullshit & that's exactly what you're trying to do by posting random images with no results or details. 
Funnily enough I notice the first one is a joint show with the large UK indie Progress. I don't know about the rest but a lot of those announced attendance's appear dubious, unless there's a massive stand of the camera side, ha?!

YouTube is a thing so others can check for themselves, but as a local I can say the scene is smalltime & generally shit. Venues are dingy & located in less than salubrious suburbs, while the creative is derivative & sometimes complete with fake American accents.

Leaning on experience from this scene to criticize a major promotion is like a hack weekend golfer diagnosing Tiger Wood's swing!!


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## BroncoBuster3 (Apr 19, 2021)

Erik. said:


> As I mentioned before
> 
> Casual fans' is an outdated concept that existed decades ago when you had about 20 TV channels and you didn't have shit to do on a Monday or Wednesday night and you stumbled across something different. These conditions just don't exist anymore.
> 
> ...


Have you guys given up on AEW being the saviour so hard that you no longer believe they can bring in new fans/bring back the fans who gave up on wrestling?

A casual fan is a relaxed fan, someone who doesn't read the dirt sheets or talk about wrestling on forums. Someone who does something irregularly. The aim should be to impress these people who have a slight interest in wrestling to the point where it's no longer an irregular occurrence for them to view their show. It has nothing to do with channel surfing. And we already know based on how many regular fans there were 20 years ago that just in America itself, there's literally millions of these people who have a fleeting interest in wrestling that they could win back over. In saying that, it was AEW itself that made ratings a thing again and promised to win back the lapsed fan. Nobody else gave a shit and just wanted a good show. Now the goal posts are moving because they're not doing as well as they thought they would.


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## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

jameehayter said:


> There's an old expression which goes baffle them with bullshit & that's exactly what you're trying to do by posting random images with no results or details.
> Funnily enough I notice the first one is a joint show with the large UK indie Progress. I don't know about the rest but a lot of those announced attendance's appear dubious, unless there's a massive stand of the camera side, ha?!
> 
> YouTube is a thing so others can check for themselves, but as a local I can say the scene is smalltime & generally shit. Venues are dingy & located in less than salubrious suburbs, while the creative is derivative & sometimes complete with fake American accents.
> ...


Yeah, it was a joint show with PROGRESS but it was still in Sydney at the Star Casino so it was still an Australian wrestling event. Even if you want to only give PWA (The host for this event) partial credit both promotions would still be credited with 550 people each going on averages.

The second one was reported in legitimate news sources at the time as 650. They did have Ryback in attendance though who was responsible for probably at least 200-300 people.

Image 3 was just locals, off memory I think the biggest star on it was probably Robbie Eagles but it was from before Robbie had hit New Japan. Was a regional town as well.

Image 4 was just locals, good promotion from the building and the local promotion lead to that big crowd.

Image 5 was again just locals and Robbie Eagles.

Image 6 was just locals.

So even if you want to knock off image 1 and 2 because they used name talent or were affiliated with PROGRESS you still have 4 more examples of good crowds being drawn.

As for videos, here's one from the PWA Vs PROGRESS show:


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## jameehayter (Nov 16, 2021)

Chip Chipperson said:


> Yeah, it was a joint show with PROGRESS but it was still in Sydney at the Star Casino so it was still an Australian wrestling event. Even if you want to only give PWA (The host for this event) partial credit both promotions would still be credited with 550 people each going on averages.
> 
> The second one was reported in legitimate news sources at the time as 650. They did have Ryback in attendance though who was responsible for probably at least 200-300 people.
> 
> ...


So despite your bluster there's no evidence to back those claims. UK company Progress drawing that number & if you're to be believed another show with Ryback from 2017!!

Like I said the scene is smalltime & being part of it hardly makes you an authority on how to run a major promotion. If anything your local involvement makes you seem bitter & envious.


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## Fergal (Apr 29, 2021)

Good to know even Punk has realized AEW is niche Indy promotion which can't cater to wider audience can't even consistently get above 1 million viewers 
They don't have ambition to create any wrestling boom or expand globally just happy to cater to Meltzer fanboys and niche audience
Aew aren't gonna create new fans like 90s era their only hope is WWE get less popular and get down to their level


----------



## Wolf Mark (Jun 5, 2020)

That sounds like somebody giving up.


----------



## Blade Runner (Jan 24, 2012)

GothicBohemian said:


> But that isn't what many of AEW's current fans want to see. I'm not sure chasing potential fans who might like something (especially when there's no proof this will attract them in 2021) while alienating the fans you have is wise.
> 
> People don't consume random media just because it's there anymore. The only people channel surfing on cable are, well, they're old folks and even most of them have moved on to targeted subscription services. The best way to get someone who isn't already a fan to look at wrestling is to bring the show to them live and on social media. In a lot of cases, the types of matches that many older fans complain about are the same ones that live crowds pop for. Sure, people like to boo and cheer compelling mic work - look at MJF and Eddie Kingston - but that's not all they want anymore. Or, I suppose I should say that's not all the newer generations of wrestling fans want. Fans today demand a mix of action and story, and most aren't as into the kind of content the Attitude Era was focused on. Pro wrestling needs to play to the fans it has and the wider culture it exists in, not the fans it had and the way things were twenty years ago. Imo, of course.
> 
> ...


I don't think that they'd alienate their current fanbase by working harder on developing compelling weekly storytelling and featuring larger-than-life characters over workrate warriors that have little appeal outside of their athletic ability. Most of AEW's core fanbase would stick around no matter what. They're the die-hard that stuck with wrestling when it stopped being cool. They're not new fans, they jumped on the AEW bandwagon because they think it's a better alternative to WWE.

Universally speaking, people engage with interesting characters in suspenseful drama. That's the cornerstone of every successful serial on TV. That's what made wrestling break into the mainstream. All it takes is buzz, and characters (like MJF and Kingston) to make noise outside of the bubble. The medium doesn't matter. AEW can get on a subscription platform if that's what's holding them back from reaching a bigger audience. Point is: It CAN be done with the right vision and the right characters positioned. I mean, why would you even be in business if your goal isn't to reach as many consumers as possible? 

If the product is cool enough for casuals, then the existing fans will keep watching. The WWE lost fans because they tried appealing to families and kids and their product wasn't cool or interesting.

Squid Games on Netflix is extremely popular right now because it's fresh and interesting, and there was a buzz for it. There''s no reason why wrestling can' t reinvent itself while staying true to what always worked (characters with crossover potential and engaging storylines of a caricatural nature).

You can still have your insane wrestling action, but it can probably be dialed back so that the matches mean more and give more time to developing characters that the Casuals will care about. A show made up of mainly 20+ minute matches and random 6-man tags will turn off 90% of the potential audience.

Lucha Underground had a fresh approach to presenting wrestling, and the brutal matches fit the universe of otherworldly characters and stories. Adapt THAT formula to a broader audience, with bigger stars and Tony Khan's money, and I think that they'd be onto something.


----------



## ObsoleteMule (Sep 4, 2016)

KYRA BATARA said:


> I don't think that they'd alienate their current fanbase by working harder on developing compelling weekly storytelling and featuring larger-than-life characters over workrate warriors that have little appeal outside of their athletic ability. Most of AEW's core fanbase would stick around no matter what. They're the die-hard that stuck with wrestling when it stopped being cool. They're not new fans, they jumped on the AEW bandwagon because they think it's a better alternative to WWE.
> 
> Universally speaking, people engage with interesting characters in suspenseful drama. That's the cornerstone of every successful serial on TV. That's what made wrestling break into the mainstream. All it takes is buzz, and characters (like MJF and Kingston) to make noise outside of the bubble. The medium doesn't matter. AEW can get on a subscription platform if that's what's holding them back from reaching a bigger audience. Point is: It CAN be done with the right vision and the right characters positioned. I mean, why would you even be in business if your goal isn't to reach as many consumers as possible?
> 
> ...


We honestly didnt deserve a promotion like Lucha Underground. So many people here shit on it but i think if a bigger company adopted the format, it could have ignited alot of interest from “casuals”


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## shandcraig (Mar 23, 2008)

ObsoleteMule said:


> We honestly didnt deserve a promotion like Lucha Underground. So many people here shit on it but i think if a bigger company adopted the format, it could have ignited alot of interest from “casuals”



i always was a big fan of lucha underground. Some cheesy moments but i think its the only promotion that did a good job at making a wrestling promotion look good with tv?movie like acting storytelling. Then billy corgan did it with TNA and they also did a fairly good job at it but not as good as LU. Personally think AEW would seriously benefit from that which they have slightly done a few times. How long is it going to last being such a work rate focused promotion you know. They need more diverse character development


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## $Dolladrew$ (Jun 15, 2020)

Fergal said:


> Good to know even Punk has realized AEW is niche Indy promotion which can't cater to wider audience can't even consistently get above 1 million viewers
> They don't have ambition to create any wrestling boom or expand globally just happy to cater to Meltzer fanboys and niche audience
> Aew aren't gonna create new fans like 90s era their only hope is WWE get less popular and get down to their level


Lemme know when wwe grows the audience .......yawn.


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## ObsoleteMule (Sep 4, 2016)

shandcraig said:


> i always was a big fan of lucha underground. Some cheesy moments but i think its the only promotion that did a good job at making a wrestling promotion look good with tv?movie like acting storytelling. Then billy corgan did it with TNA and they also did a fairly good job at it but not as good as LU. Personally think AEW would seriously benefit from that which they have slightly done a few times. How long is it going to last being such a work rate focused promotion you know. They need more diverse character development


Glow also had an LU style presentation a few years backs. The possibility of AEW going this route would be amazing. You can still have workrate but AEW wont break out until they really embrace characters. Some may think that LU was over the top but there’s definitely a way to do a more grounded version with AEW


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## shandcraig (Mar 23, 2008)

ObsoleteMule said:


> Glow also had an LU style presentation a few years backs. The possibility of AEW going this route would be amazing. You can still have workrate but AEW wont break out until they really embrace characters. Some may think that LU was over the top but there’s definitely a way to do a more grounded version with AEW


id say in ways the cinema lu scenes came off more believable than aew does. TNA's attempt felt believable too so it can be done right.


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## GothicBohemian (May 26, 2012)

KYRA BATARA said:


> I don't think that they'd alienate their current fanbase by working harder on developing compelling weekly storytelling and featuring larger-than-life characters over workrate warriors that have little appeal outside of their athletic ability. Most of AEW's core fanbase would stick around no matter what. They're the die-hard that stuck with wrestling when it stopped being cool. They're not new fans, they jumped on the AEW bandwagon because they think it's a better alternative to WWE.
> 
> Universally speaking, people engage with interesting characters in suspenseful drama. That's the cornerstone of every successful serial on TV. That's what made wrestling break into the mainstream. All it takes is buzz, and characters (like MJF and Kingston) to make noise outside of the bubble. The medium doesn't matter. AEW can get on a subscription platform if that's what's holding them back from reaching a bigger audience. Point is: It CAN be done with the right vision and the right characters positioned. I mean, why would you even be in business if your goal isn't to reach as many consumers as possible?
> 
> ...



LU was my all-time favourite promotion. I wish there was a show like it available because I would watch every episode of that. 

I agree with a lot of what you wrote, but I have to disagree when you say existing AEW fans would all be on board with a switch away from long and high-action matches. For many of us, that's AEW's biggest strength. A lot of people who aren't happy with the focus AEW has underestimate how many other fans choose to watch AEW because of the matches. The great mic workers are an added bonus who round out the show and make it feel more complete. Take away either of those elements and AEW turns into a slightly different version of some promotion or other that already exists. 

Do I love the typical AEW match structure? Nope. There are too many run ins, too many kick outs, often not enough fluidity and a few people who are prominently featured who aren't as good at one aspect or another as they should be. None of that means I'd sacrifice the long matches for more non-wrestling content. I'm happy with the current balance. I also like the mix of styles, including the comedy wrestlers - as it is with most entertainment, comedy is the hardest role (people here underestimate how hard the things OC does often are). 

I know many fans, and you seem to be one of them, think wrestling would draw huge viewing numbers if it was more the way you wish it was. I'm not seeing that as realistic. The cultural landscape that existed in wrestling's boom periods doesn't exist today, and even in those times the wrestling audience demographic wasn't as broad as many think it was. 

Speaking for myself, if I really wanted to watch bad acting and mediocre stories I'd seek out hilariously bad movies, not wrestling. With rare exceptions, pro wrestlers are better wrestlers than actors and wrestling isn't known for its compelling narratives.


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## DoctorWhosawhatsit (Aug 23, 2016)

If there are casual wrestling fans where are they? Because they ain't watchin WWe, they ain't watching AEW, no one watches Impact. Where are these mythological casual fans people are so eager to draw?


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## BroncoBuster3 (Apr 19, 2021)

ObsoleteMule said:


> Glow also had an LU style presentation a few years backs. The possibility of AEW going this route would be amazing. You can still have workrate but AEW wont break out until they really embrace characters. Some may think that LU was over the top but there’s definitely a way to do a more grounded version with AEW


I was thinking about this earlier. I'd love to see a company go the cinematic route. 'Heelz' with a more in ring focus would be interesting as fuck. Going between a television show and actual in ring wrestling matches could be very cool. Have actual Hollywood writers involved with people who know the industry enough to tell a wresting story in ring too.


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## BroncoBuster3 (Apr 19, 2021)

DoctorWhosawhatsit said:


> If there are casual wrestling fans where are they? Because they ain't watchin WWe, they ain't watching AEW, no one watches Impact. Where are these mythological casual fans people are so eager to draw?


Following the Rock on Instagram, watching old stuff on Youtube and being too grown up to bother with the shit we are being offered in 2021. The old fans didn't just die off and disappear. There was something they enjoyed and that has since disappeared


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## NathanMayberry (Oct 11, 2019)

If there truly are no casual fans, then it's shit like this that sent them away. The hardcores saying they like this shit in the name of "storytelling" are full of shit, and will be the first ones to make excuses for ratings.

When Punk came to Fox I was looking forward to his last run ass a wrestler in marquee matches vs Reigns, Rollins, Lesnar, Cesaro, etc.When that didn't work out and he joined AEW I expected that if I was going to see CM Punk he would be elevated to the top where he belongs. I really thought that after all the shit he talked.that his return to wrestling would actually mean something.


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## DUD (Feb 21, 2021)

Jeff Jarrett and Eric Bischoff touched on the casual fan in there podcasts this week and it was interesting based on there experiences.

They said there's plenty of data to support the theory that there are plenty of channel hoppers who will watch vignettes and entrances but turn off once the wrestling starts. 

Keeping those people immersed is the difficult task. It helps understand why WWE have gone down the route they have.

They also touched upon with modern advances the amount of people who immediately skip to the last minute of the match is pretty surprising. Which I've been very guilty of on the WWE Network.


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## ObsoleteMule (Sep 4, 2016)

BroncoBuster3 said:


> I was thinking about this earlier. I'd love to see a company go the cinematic route. 'Heelz' with a more in ring focus would be interesting as fuck. Going between a television show and actual in ring wrestling matches could be very cool. Have actual Hollywood writers involved with people who know the industry enough to tell a wresting story in ring too.


This has so much potential and Im honestly confused why AEW hasn't hopped onto this. Cody has dipped his toes into acting, and has ties to Stephen Amell. They could definitely make it happen.


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## Blade Runner (Jan 24, 2012)

GothicBohemian said:


> LU was my all-time favourite promotion. I wish there was a show like it available because I would watch every episode of that.
> 
> I agree with a lot of what you wrote, but I have to disagree when you say existing AEW fans would all be on board with a switch away from long and high-action matches. For many of us, that's AEW's biggest strength. A lot of people who aren't happy with the focus AEW has underestimate how many other fans choose to watch AEW because of the matches. The great mic workers are an added bonus who round out the show and make it feel more complete. Take away either of those elements and AEW turns into a slightly different version of some promotion or other that already exists.


De-emphasizing high-action matches isn't the answer, but long matches should mainly be reserved for feuds with characters that people care about. I seriously doubt that the existing fans would have a problem with better balance in this regard. Shorter matches, and the occasional long ones _mean_ more. AEW too often rely on random multi-man matches with participants that few people care about seing them fight each other. Sure, a part of the fanbase will watch it just to see the cool moves being performed, and an even smaller part would watch this for 2-hours straight every week, but they'll never grow their audience this way. 1.4 million viewers sampled AEW on their debut episode of Dynamite, and to my knowledge they never reached that number again. They _know_ that it's possible to reach more viewers with a better product.

I still believe that most AEW fans are people that stuck with WWE in the dark days and are hungry for an alternative. These fans stick around no matter what. A lot of them _still_ watch WWE. They're louder at AEW events because it's a better alternative to them and they want it to succeed, but they wouldn't give up on wrestling regardless. There _is_ an even smaller crossover of Purists that only watch shows like New Japan, CMLL, World of Sports.. ect, but that's a relatively irrelevant amount of people.




> Do I love the typical AEW match structure? Nope. There are too many run ins, too many kick outs, often not enough fluidity and a few people who are prominently featured who aren't as good at one aspect or another as they should be. None of that means I'd sacrifice the long matches for more non-wrestling content. I'm happy with the current balance. I also like the mix of styles, including the comedy wrestlers - as it is with most entertainment, comedy is the hardest role (people here underestimate how hard the things OC does often are).


The current format isn't the worst right now, admittedly. I was really drawn back in with the recent Kingston/Punk stuff, even if it was short-lived, but AEW (for me at least) has had a severe balancing issue for the better part of 2 years with long matches that don't have any heat behind them. Through a lot of it, it felt like the Independents with a budget, and only now it seems to be adjusting more with the influx of new talent. Still far from ideal, and I still don't understand what AEW's identity is supposed to be.

I'm with you on the mix of styles. I love it. I don't mind comedy ether when done right. OC to me is unbelievably goofy and it was only amusing to me for a few minutes before being stale. When I think comedy, it's something other than week-to-week slapstick from a guy that should've gotten jobbed out ages ago.

I truly think that TK could benefit from bringing in a creative/competent writer. Not Vince Russo, but someone younger with a fresh vision that can weave together storyline arcs and present characters in the best possible light every week. More consistency and more AEW "Universe"-building, and tapping into what contemporary culture would gravitate to. It's not like TK doesn't _try_ to create storylines, I just don't think he's very good at it, and has a serious problem with consistency. I keep hearing that Page/Omega was a masterful storyline that took 2-years to develope, and yet I couldn't even fill a single sheet of paper with everything that went down since they started tagging. Compare this to Austin/McMahon, which was _consistently_ on display every week through all of 98 and most of 99. A lot of AEW fans were content with the minimal/snail-paced storytelling of Page's depression angle, but casual fans likely would've given up after 2 months because of all the filler around it (see seasons 7 and 8 of Walking Dead). Like I said, you can compile all of the important bits relating to Omega and Page in the past 2 years, and you'd get a 7-8 minute video on YouTube. It wasn't a 2-year storyline, it was a 3-month storyline stretched out for 2-years.





> I know many fans, and you seem to be one of them, think wrestling would draw huge viewing numbers if it was more the way you wish it was. I'm not seeing that as realistic. The cultural landscape that existed in wrestling's boom periods doesn't exist today, and even in those times the wrestling audience demographic wasn't as broad as many think it was.
> 
> Speaking for myself, if I really wanted to watch bad acting and mediocre stories I'd seek out hilariously bad movies, not wrestling. With rare exceptions, pro wrestlers are better wrestlers than actors and wrestling isn't known for its compelling narratives.


Wrestling is a genre of Entertainment. The genre can adjust to the zeitgeist and make itself interesting to a wider audience. ANY genre can do this, and wrestling has a very long history of doing it. It's got all the components to make it work. Action, Drama. Suspense. Comedy. Sex Appeal. Showcase of larger-than-life characters. They just have to use it's tools and reinvent itself in a way that captures a majority audience. They're only limited by their lack of imagination. They have the resources. TK is a billionaire.

The "acting" can be serviceable. Guys like Piper, Foley, Austin, Roberts and even Kingston never had a problem being believable and gelling perfectly with the right storyline. A lot of wrestling entertainment _can_ be silly lowbrow shite, but when you present it properly it can transcend the stereotype for a lot of people.


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## shandcraig (Mar 23, 2008)

Forum Dud said:


> Jeff Jarrett and Eric Bischoff touched on the casual fan in there podcasts this week and it was interesting based on there experiences.
> 
> They said there's plenty of data to support the theory that there are plenty of channel hoppers who will watch vignettes and entrances but turn off once the wrestling starts.
> 
> ...



well they most certainly ant tuning in for the meaningless work work


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## DoctorWhosawhatsit (Aug 23, 2016)

BroncoBuster3 said:


> Following the Rock on Instagram, watching old stuff on Youtube and being too grown up to bother with the shit we are being offered in 2021. The old fans didn't just die off and disappear. There was something they enjoyed and that has since disappeared


used to be a fan and casual fan are not the same thing.


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## BroncoBuster3 (Apr 19, 2021)

DoctorWhosawhatsit said:


> used to be a fan and casual fan are not the same thing.


Wrestling fans who aren't interested in modern wrestling who return every so often to watch things like The Rock show up are, in fact, the very definition of a casual fan.


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## BroncoBuster3 (Apr 19, 2021)

ObsoleteMule said:


> This has so much potential and Im honestly confused why AEW hasn't hopped onto this. Cody has dipped his toes into acting, and has ties to Stephen Amell. They could definitely make it happen.


My guess is the rest of the EVP's have no interest in anything entertaining outside of the ring knowing they wouldn't be able to keep up


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## Jersey (Jun 24, 2014)

Nah he’s full of it. He’s only saying because he lost steam and people stop caring for him. When his name was still hot he didn’t bother to return them now that steam went away now he says this? How come Danielson doesn’t feel the same then?


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## Stephen90 (Mar 31, 2015)

He's not wrong also people are leaving cable too which makes wrestling more harder to find for the causal fan that dumped cable for streaming.


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## ThunderNitro (Sep 16, 2021)

Am I the only person who doesn't care whether casual fans watch the product?


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## Gn1212 (May 17, 2012)

Punk seriously needs to stay in the wrestling business when he retires in some shape or form.
He always hits the nail on the head.

Tony should just hand him the keys. 🤣


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## shandcraig (Mar 23, 2008)

Of course there isn't casual fans with the likes of guys like cm punk. Nerds can jerk off for years to come over 1 rebellious storyline against a shitty product. Reality is people don't care for people like him outside of wrestling. That's the problem is the attitude in this business has driven the business down a entire different direction than media that sells and that always will sell.


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## Wolf Mark (Jun 5, 2020)

shandcraig said:


> Of course there isn't casual fans with the likes of guys like cm punk. Nerds can jerk off for years to come over 1 rebellious storyline against a shitty product. Reality is people don't care for people like him outside of wrestling. That's the problem is the attitude in this business has driven the business down a entire different direction than media that sells and that always will sell.


There was more than a few people I know that that don't watch wrestling anymore that watched AEW the first night Punk came back just to watch him. But TK did not know how to keep them afterwards. Punk had appeal among casuals cause he had that Stone Cold-like edge. Guys are always attracted by badasses no matter what. But WWE fumbled the ball with him and then AEW did as well(cause TK doesn't know what he's doing).


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## shandcraig (Mar 23, 2008)

Wolf Mark said:


> There was more than a few people I know that that don't watch wrestling anymore that watched AEW the first night Punk came back just to watch him. But TK did not know how to keep them afterwards. Punk had appeal among casuals cause he had that Stone Cold-like edge. Guys are always attracted by badasses no matter what. But WWE fumbled the ball with him and then AEW did as well(cause TK doesn't know what he's doing).



yes but that was likely fans that watched 10 years ago. the industry has lost millions of fans way before that era. Its a small margin. Entire industry has been on a decline for 20 years and it never improves.


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## Cult03 (Oct 31, 2016)

AEW was supposed to bring back the lapsed/casual fan.. It's all very embarrassing that their superstar savior signing has given up on that entirely.


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## CenaBoy4Life (Jul 31, 2013)

Tell that to WWE and their social media presence and peakcock viewer ship.


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## Ger (Jul 20, 2018)

Stephen90 said:


> He's not wrong also people are leaving cable too which makes wrestling more harder to find for the causal fan that dumped cable for streaming.


That is maybe a factor, but no reason to drop the idea of getting more viewers outside the hardcore viewership.



ThunderNitro said:


> Am I the only person who doesn't care whether casual fans watch the product?


For sure not, but some people talked in past like AEW would dig out the holy grail of wrestling, when crying about WWE is no more able to attract 4m viewers or more. If someone doesn't care for anyone else watching his preferred wrestling show, he can focus on his local promotion, which fits best for him.



Cult03 said:


> AEW was supposed to bring back the lapsed/casual fan.. It's all very embarrassing that their superstar savior signing has given up on that entirely.


I said already, that I was very dissappointed by his statement. He made it very easy for himself this way, because he could just focus on getting a few more ex-WWE viewers back to TV. Also he can say, that it is not possible to attract much more viewers, because there are not really much more available by his logic. But ...



CenaBoy4Life said:


> Tell that to WWE and their social media presence and peakcock viewer ship.


... that is more or less going the comfortable way for Punk and nothing else.


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## Wolf Mark (Jun 5, 2020)

shandcraig said:


> yes but that was likely fans that watched 10 years ago. the industry has lost millions of fans way before that era. Its a small margin. Entire industry has been on a decline for 20 years and it never improves.


True. Just saying he was the kind of talent that captured the imagination, that had the potential to bring butts in the seats, to give the pro wrestling scene a spark, cause had that edge. But both WWE and AEW fumbled the ball with him. I'm not saying Punk could have given AEW a 5 ratings. But playing their cards right with an interesting storyline, he and Bryan could have been used to create a momentum to go to the 2s and then you build on it even more with good writing/booking. That is what WCW did with the nWo. They did good booking and WCW got good ratings at first but then cause they planned it well, by 1998 the ratings were even bigger(in the 5s).


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## shandcraig (Mar 23, 2008)

Wolf Mark said:


> True. Just saying he was the kind of talent that captured the imagination, that had the potential to bring butts in the seats, to give the pro wrestling scene a spark, cause had that edge. But both WWE and AEW fumbled the ball with him. I'm not saying Punk could have given AEW a 5 ratings. But playing their cards right with an interesting storyline, he and Bryan could have been used to create a momentum to go to the 2s and then you build on it even more with good writing/booking. That is what WCW did with the nWo. They did good booking and WCW got good ratings at first but then cause they planned it well, by 1998 the ratings were even bigger(in the 5s).



Or it's time to admit the guy had one lucky story that sorted during a specific time and thats it. There's nothing you can do with him. The guy has had a pampered career and is now in aew because he chose the money. People want him to re do the same shit? How is that believable now. People need to let it go which clearly that is happening.


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## thorn123 (Oct 10, 2019)

There are no casual fans, but they will be back should a larger than life character shows up and takes the sport by storm.

Guys like punk, danielson, reigns, lesnar may be appreciated by wrestling fans, but only a Hogan/Austin level star will bring back the casuals.


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## Wolf Mark (Jun 5, 2020)

shandcraig said:


> Or it's time to admit the guy had one lucky story that sorted during a specific time and thats it. There's nothing you can do with him. The guy has had a pampered career and is now in aew because he chose the money. People want him to re do the same shit? How is that believable now. People need to let it go which clearly that is happening.


Yea but you have to admit that WWE booking has been trash in like forever and that only this year they finally booked someone they really liked Roman Reigns right. He was basically a walking thurd ever since he left the Shield. They made blunders after blunders with him and that's someone they liked! Imagine booking someone they barely liked. Remember Ambrose with the green paint? And when was the last time AEW booked anybody right. Alright say Punk is a flash in the pan and nothing beyond the pipe bomb but people had a big desire to see him for many years. How else would someone get a million dollar payday from the mighty UFC with an onproven track record. Dana White is a smart man and a good businessman. He knew people would watch it. And people came to the dance when he showed at AEW as well. You have something there that you can use if you are a good booker. I mean Scott Hall was not necesseraly the Rock and Kevin Nash was not Steve Austin but WCW sure made a lot of money by signing these two. Creating the biggest storyline in the history of wrestling.

Punk may be flawed but you just don't bring in someone, cut one promo and make him wrestle and expect to light the World on fire. You've got to add meat the bone. Create intrigue, write compelling stuff. Look at what happened to Bryan. Beaten clean but the mid card cowboy. Boom. The End. Wrestling companies nowadays are generally incompetent.


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## thorwold (Dec 19, 2015)

Raw has run off over half a million viewers in just the last two years. Those people can't ALL hate wrestling yet, they got to be classed as casuals. The lapsed fan, as it were.


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## Erik. (Mar 17, 2014)

thorwold said:


> Raw has run off over half a million viewers in just the last two years. Those people can't ALL hate wrestling yet, they got to be classed as casuals. The lapsed fan, as it were.


But have they run them off? 

Or have they just decided to stop watching live and instead just DVR it and watch it at a different time? Or just prefer other wrestling now?


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## OmegaPunk34 (Jan 11, 2022)

Wrestling is not big like it was 10 years ago and 20 years ago many people left for UFC and other sports i truly believe that only hardcore fans are watching


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## DrewWrestlingFan (Sep 7, 2021)

CM Punk has to be the biggest joke in wrestling. "There are no casual fans. I only see hard-core fans in AEW, like before I went to WWE" So hard-core fans don't watch WWE? But casual fans don't exist? This guy really needs to shut up.


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## shandcraig (Mar 23, 2008)

DrewWrestlingFan said:


> CM Punk has to be the biggest joke in wrestling. "There are no casual fans. I only see hard-core fans in AEW, like before I went to WWE" So hard-core fans don't watch WWE? But casual fans don't exist? This guy really needs to shut up.



He's going to be worse than Tony on excepting reality


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## RainmakerV2 (Nov 8, 2017)

So when 4.1 million people watch the Brock and Roman segment on YouTube while other segments get 500k, what do you call those extra 3.6 million? Casual fans who just wanna see big names. They exist.


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