# Orange Cassidy is growing on me



## MoxAsylum (Jan 9, 2020)

Used to think this guy was cringe but he’s looking like a star in this feud with Jericho. This serious side that he’s shown is awesome..Honestly I feel like he should separate from the best friends and have his own theme music too...


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## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

I've seen isolated clips, and he still comes off as awful. I feel that expectations for wrestling have sunk so low that people just forget what it is supposed to look like now, haha.


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## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

MoxAsylum said:


> Used to think this guy was cringe but he’s looking like a star in this feud with Jericho. This serious side that he’s shown is awesome..Honestly I feel like he should separate from the best friends and have his own theme music too...


Serious side? He legitimately kicked the dude that he HATES in the shins 4 times today to try and make him mad. That's comedy my man.


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## MontyCora (Aug 31, 2016)

If you don't "get" and enjoy Orange Cassidy by now, you're not going to.


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## CM Buck (Sep 2, 2012)

Chip Chipperson said:


> Serious side? He legitimately kicked the dude that he HATES in the shins 4 times today to try and make him mad. That's comedy my man.


And it worked? You must have turned off the tv after cause they got serious after. That's his comedy used right. Trolling his opponents into making a mistake like yano.

I would agree with your grumpiness if it was for no reason but fuck dude he did it to piss off and goad Jericho. Stop being a grump


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## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

That’s ridiculous though. Why piss off Jericho. Didn’t he get his ear torn off? This isn’t very good.


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## Blade Runner (Jan 24, 2012)

He hasn't grown on me.

If I want to see that shit then I'll go watch some Chikara.


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## CM Buck (Sep 2, 2012)

The Wood said:


> That’s ridiculous though. Why piss off Jericho. Didn’t he get his ear torn off? This isn’t very good.


Same reason I do it. Cause I'm a smartass. If I'm angry at ya I'm going to do everything I can to piss you off. I'm sure you've been a smartass to goad someone?


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## MontyCora (Aug 31, 2016)

The Wood said:


> That’s ridiculous though. Why piss off Jericho. Didn’t he get his ear torn off? This isn’t very good.


The same reason he antagonized Pac. They're self important self righteous douchebags who DESERVE to be mocked to their faces. It's basic pyschology guys stop acting like this is wrestling from the moon.


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## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

Firefromthegods said:


> Same reason I do it. Cause I'm a smartass. If I'm angry at ya I'm going to do everything I can to piss you off. I'm sure you've been a smartass to goad someone?


Never in a fight. Doing that is a good way to get yourself killed.



MontyCora said:


> The same reason he antagonized Pac. They're self important self righteous douchebags who DESERVE to be mocked to their faces. It's basic pyschology guys stop acting like this is wrestling from the moon.


It is though. The idea is to sell your opponent.


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## Swan-San (May 25, 2019)

lol he's awful man, even just him fighting jericho he looks so feable and skinny compared to him.


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## midgetlover69 (Nov 27, 2016)

He looks like a school shooter...


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## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

Firefromthegods said:


> And it worked? You must have turned off the tv after cause they got serious after. That's his comedy used right. Trolling his opponents into making a mistake like yano.
> 
> I would agree with your grumpiness if it was for no reason but fuck dude he did it to piss off and goad Jericho. Stop being a grump


I painstakingly watched the whole thing. The brawl afterwards was equally as horrible as the prior comedy bits.


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## CMPunkRock316 (Jan 17, 2016)

Not everything is serious. Not everything is comedy. There is a place in Wrestling for Orange Cassidy. No one in their right mind is saying he should be FOTC.


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## Wridacule (Aug 23, 2018)

Backstage/in the crowd brawls have never been my thing, but jericho even knows how to make that interesting. Cant ask for much more than two of my favorites in a program together. I have been very entertained. I still get a chuckle out of the whole blood orange deal..!


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## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

CMPunkRock316 said:


> Not everything is serious. Not everything is comedy. There is a place in Wrestling for Orange Cassidy. No one in their right mind is saying he should be FOTC.


Bro, we've got a guy on here running around saying Orange Cassidy is the next Rock and this isn't the first time someones said that.


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## MarkOfAllMarks (Apr 7, 2018)

midgetlover69 said:


> He looks like a school shooter...


what a racist thing to say


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## elidrakefan76 (Jul 23, 2018)

MarkOfAllMarks said:


> what a racist thing to say


It was a racist thing to say but it was geared toward a white person so it will likely be swept under the rug by people on here. Remember, (according to the media) only black lives matter now.

Regarding Cassidy, he needs to put on at least another 10-15 pounds of muscle to be seen as credible. When he was fighting with Jericho yesterday, it looked like a college kid fighting with an adult.


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## Big Booty Bex (Jan 24, 2020)

KYRA BATARA said:


> He hasn't grown on me.
> 
> If I want to see that shit then I'll go watch some Chikara.


Is it possible you might have Vitamin C Deficiency?


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## Bret'Hitman'Hart (Jun 16, 2020)

The guy has some serious potential. I think his character will need a few years of proper refinement before he is a top caliber title contender. The idea he had with this gimmick is very original(God knows wrestling could use something fresh , no pun intended.) Overall I think the plan for OC is going to be simple and comedic at first , as we have all already witnessed. That does not mean the final outcome will match the initial OC , which to be honest , is what I am looking forward to the most. As far as people not liking him but constantly speaking badly about the guy , I understand and respect all opinions and dont care to try and sway people another way. That being said I also think that bad publicity is far and few between.As long as you are not being associated with any out of the ring drama , all publicity is good , so I encourage and enjoy the fact that even people who dislike OC continue to keep engaging in conversation about him.


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## Blade Runner (Jan 24, 2012)

CMPunkRock316 said:


> Not everything is serious. Not everything is comedy. There is a place in Wrestling for Orange Cassidy. No one in their right mind is saying he should be FOTC.


Yes there is a place for Orange Cassidy. In Chikara.


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## RainmakerV2 (Nov 8, 2017)

Apparently he grew on the rating too.


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## The XL 2 (Sep 13, 2016)

If he's handled properly he could get over on a bigger scale. Some of his shit needs to be reeled in against credible opponents. And I didn't like the brawl with Jericho, Chris looked about 70lbs bigger and OCs worked punches in a brawl like setting looked like shit. Still, it's undeniable that he has quite a bit of charisma and some level of it factor.


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## MoxAsylum (Jan 9, 2020)

elidrakefan76 said:


> It was a racist thing to say but it was geared toward a white person so it will likely be swept under the rug by people on here. Remember, (according to the media) only black lives matter now.
> 
> Regarding Cassidy, he needs to put on at least another 10-15 pounds of muscle to be seen as credible. When he was fighting with Jericho yesterday, it looked like a college kid fighting with an adult.


Facts OC definitely has a future though


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## yeahbaby! (Jan 27, 2014)

The Wood said:


> I've seen isolated clips, and he still comes off as awful. I feel that expectations for wrestling have sunk so low that people just forget what it is supposed to look like now, haha.


Couldn't have said it better. He's the face of something alright, the face of everything shitty about modern wrestling. He's an easy fast forward for me.


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## MontyCora (Aug 31, 2016)

The Wood said:


> It is though. The idea is to sell your opponent.


I'm not sure I understand what point you're trying to make. They DID sell each other. Orange listened to Jericho tell him "if you do that shit to me I'm going to be SOOO mad I'll fucking kill you, you little punk."

So then he does exactly what Jericho told him not to do. He's selling Jericho's promo by telling him "fuck you. Do something about it, you little bitch."

Then they kick each others asses. I think some of you are overthinking this, or not getting it. It's bizarre that such simple straight forward stuff trips people up so hard.


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## Cult03 (Oct 31, 2016)

Chip Chipperson said:


> Bro, we've got a guy on here running around saying Orange Cassidy is the next Rock and this isn't the first time someones said that.


It just clicked with me this week. When I say like The Rock I obviously don't mean as hugely successful, but he's following a similar trajectory by being panned at the beginning of his televised career, can't throw a punch, and is already more popular among fans than Rocky was a few months into his WWF run. I think once people start seeing his interaction with Jericho on Youtube the viewers will pick up. They obviously turned off because of other things from the previous weeks. But OC is absolute money and if you can't see it, I get it because I didn't either. But I think you will


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## CM Buck (Sep 2, 2012)

Chip Chipperson said:


> I painstakingly watched the whole thing. The brawl afterwards was equally as horrible as the prior comedy bits.


Santino WWE comedy was much more worse than that at its worst and Shane's punches are much worse. You're acting like he slimed him and tickled him with a feather.

@The Wood  not 100 percent of the time. If you are angry enough you punch blind or be out maneuvered. You see it all the time in movies.


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## alex0816 (Jul 27, 2011)

idk what peoples problem with Orange Cassidy are really.

comedy has always had a pace in wrestling, and when you look at who is is fueding with now in Jericho, it can work. Jericho is someone who multiple times in his career has done comedic things yet he was always hailed as a top guy in the business. not saying Orange Cassidy is gonna be a world champ, but he has an appeal, he's over, and he's entertaining to most. sure he's not everyones coup of tea but you can say that about every single wrestler ever.


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## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

CMPunkRock316 said:


> Not everything is serious. Not everything is comedy. There is a place in Wrestling for Orange Cassidy. No one in their right mind is saying he should be FOTC.


This isn't even good comedy though. It doesn't make sense in-universe. This would be like if Jerry Seinfeld suddenly turned into a hamburger in Seinfeld. I don't understand how people can't understand how comedy needs to work in context. 



MontyCora said:


> I'm not sure I understand what point you're trying to make. They DID sell each other. Orange listened to Jericho tell him "if you do that shit to me I'm going to be SOOO mad I'll fucking kill you, you little punk."
> 
> So then he does exactly what Jericho told him not to do. He's selling Jericho's promo by telling him "fuck you. Do something about it, you little bitch."
> 
> Then they kick each others asses. I think some of you are overthinking this, or not getting it. It's bizarre that such simple straight forward stuff trips people up so hard.


Orange Cassidy's whole shtick is that he is too cool to take his opponents seriously. That's literally it. That's what the shin kicks are about. Go up to someone who wants to fight you and do that to them and see what happens to you. It's fucking nonsense, and if you can't understand that, then we'll just be going around in circles. 

Shawn Michaels would lie across the ropes and act cocky. Nakamura backs his opponent into the ropes and mockingly gives them his head. THAT all makes sense. Pretending you're not in a real fight doesn't. It's fucking bullshit. It's not funny, it's not clever and Cassidy is not a good enough worker to understand any of that to even give it some unconscious nuance. 

He's literally one of the worst gimmicks I've ever seen, and the ratings are suffering because they're pushing him, and Jericho has lost whatever allure he had at the start because of his entanglement and pretending this dude that can't throw a punch and doesn't take wrestling seriously is on his level. This is going to be written about in The Death of AEW, and eventually history is going to bare out the people who didn't jump on the bandwagon correct. This is bad. It appeals to no one except people who force themselves to watch wrestling and hate it a lot.


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## MontyCora (Aug 31, 2016)

The Wood said:


> This isn't even good comedy though. It doesn't make sense in-universe. This would be like if Jerry Seinfeld suddenly turned into a hamburger in Seinfeld. I don't understand how people can't understand how comedy needs to work in context.
> 
> Orange Cassidy's whole shtick is that he is too cool to take his opponents seriously. That's literally it. That's what the shin kicks are about. Go up to someone who wants to fight you and do that to them and see what happens to you. It's fucking nonsense, and if you can't understand that, then we'll just be going around in circles.
> 
> ...


Right that crowd full of people roaring approval at Double or Nothing must have just been a smarky smark group of "not real fans", not like you Woodsy. You "get it". 

He's not Shawn Michaels. Shawn was a top guy. He's not even Nakamura. For a time Nakamura was a top guy. He's a fun comedy gimmick wrestler who's gotten super over. It seems to me your anger is confusion. He's a comedy gimmick who you're not treating as a comedy gimmick. He's gotten too over and now you're comparing to him fucking Shawn Michaels lmfao.


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## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

MontyCora said:


> Right that crowd full of people roaring approval at Double or Nothing must have just been a smarky smark group of "not real fans", not like you Woodsy. You "get it".


The people at Double Or Nothing are people like you who will love anything AEW does and would cheer Omega defecating in the ring and saying it's WWE. They're not a fair judge.

Take Orange Cassidy and throw him on WrestleMania last year. How many of those people do you think would be applauding his antics? I guarantee you maybe 10-15% max would get it and go along with it.


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## Dizzie (Jun 22, 2019)

Cassidy's ceiling is the hurricane, spike Dudley levels unless he beefs up, people give janela shit for his physique and Cassidy is no different.


I still think aew should have a lightweight/cruiserweight title scene because they would have such a strong division with the likes of sammy, cassidy, allin, jungle boy etc..


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## Geeee (Aug 9, 2010)

Dizzie said:


> Cassidy's ceiling is the hurricane, spike Dudley levels unless he beefs up, people give janela shit for his physique and Cassidy is no different.
> 
> 
> I still think aew should have a lightweight/cruiserweight title scene because they would have such a strong division with the likes of sammy, cassidy, allin, jungle boy etc..


I'd say OC has a little more presence and fire than The Hurricane or Spike Dudley. Also, as you've pointed out, AEW has a number of guys around the same size, so being small isn't really that much of a disadvantage compared to his peers.


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## Dizzie (Jun 22, 2019)

Geeee said:


> I'd say OC has a little more presence and fire than The Hurricane or Spike Dudley. Also, as you've pointed out, AEW has a number of guys around the same size, so being small isn't really that much of a disadvantage compared to his peers.


It's still a disadvantage because it won't look good having the likes of allin and cassidy competitively in the main event scene against the likes of archer, cage, Brodie lee, Mosley or even Jericho.


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## Geeee (Aug 9, 2010)

Dizzie said:


> It's still a disadvantage because it won't look good having the likes of allin and cassidy competitively in the main event scene against the likes of archer, cage, Brodie lee, Mosley or even Jericho.


I dunno. I kinda like the visual. Like when Archer was beating up Janela and Kiss, he looked like he was 9' tall


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## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

MontyCora said:


> Right that crowd full of people roaring approval at Double or Nothing must have just been a smarky smark group of "not real fans", not like you Woodsy. You "get it".
> 
> He's not Shawn Michaels. Shawn was a top guy. He's not even Nakamura. For a time Nakamura was a top guy. He's a fun comedy gimmick wrestler who's gotten super over. It seems to me your anger is confusion. He's a comedy gimmick who you're not treating as a comedy gimmick. He's gotten too over and now you're comparing to him fucking Shawn Michaels lmfao.


I’ve used this example countless times before: If I took a shit live and in person in an AEW ring, it would first be me with disgust and confusion. If I then got on the mic and gestured to it and said “WWE creative!” you’d get an arena full of gasping laughter and knee-slapping. And everyone knows it.

The “Joey Ryan Defence” of “it works in the building” is such a limited one. AEW fans will applaud anything AEW does (except The Dark Order). I would not be using these trend-setters to determine a creative pace for your company.

No, I’m not confused. Stop trying to dismiss people. “Comedy gimmicks” are fucking stupid. Shove that 1993 WWF shit where it belongs. It’s such an empty and frivolous way to try and get laughs out of people too. He’s not funny, yet he parodies the very genre you are trying to present. It’d be like doing a gladiator movie and having one skinny pale guy with the gladiators who acts like he doesn’t want to fight and goes into battle with a cardboard sword he made himself. HAHAHA! Comedy, right?!?

I’m comparing him to Shawn Michaels because that is the psychology he is demonstrating. Not everybody can be HBK, but everyone can goddamn aspire and put a little fucking effort in. And your whole argument about him not being a top guy goes out the window when he is BEING PRESENTED AS A TOP GUY!!!

Smarks have this weird need to put things into levels, like being in the mid-card justifies being in a completely different genre and throwing any semblance of psychology or logic out the window. The schadenfreude when this company finds itself in real peril is going to be hard to resist for the people with reasonable tastes.


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## Dizzie (Jun 22, 2019)

Geeee said:


> I dunno. I kinda like the visual. Like when Archer was beating up Janela and Kiss, he looked like he was 9' tall


Yeah but you dont exactly want to see janela being able to a have a competitive match with him though and that's the issue creatively with the abundance of small guys they have and feels like a waste of their talents and potential.


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## Optikk is All Elite (Sep 5, 2007)

Everyone needs to calm down here. No need to bait, Chip and no need to react to that bait, Monty.


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## Garty (Jul 29, 2007)

KYRA BATARA said:


> He hasn't grown on me.
> 
> If I want to see that shit then I'll go watch some Chikara.


Psst. You may have seen him there already. He was an insect of some sort.

Umm, you're a day late to watch it, but that's not important. You will also be a surprised at the next event title. You know how they always play on words and themes...

It's called, *C*-unt *H*-omophobe,* I*-nsert *K*-inky *A*-ccosted *R*-aped *A*-sshole


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## ThenWo/WCW (Jan 8, 2014)

*he sucks 
not funny*


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## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

The segment between Chris Jericho and Orange Cassidy did a rating of just 552,000 people.


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## Cult03 (Oct 31, 2016)

Chip Chipperson said:


> The segment between Chris Jericho and Orange Cassidy did a rating of just 552,000 people.


I think people switched off because of Matt Hardy. People might be getting sick of Jericho too. He's was being too serious to be enjoyable this week


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## ManiacMichaelMyers (Oct 23, 2009)

Everytime I think about Orange Cassidy, I imagine him trying his shin kick crap on someone like Brock Lesnar.
Brock would probably play along, laugh even, let Orange do a few shin kicks, then utterly decimate him with a series of germans and some stiff clothelines.

Now THAT would be entertainment. 

O.C. only gets by because everyone is willing to work with him. What happens when someone says "nope" and just stiffs him? How many old school wrestlers would let themselves be openly mocked by O.C.? I can't imagine Hardcore Holly or JBL going along with it. Working with O.C. is allowing yourself to be mocked by someone possibly half your size that has a 'too cool for school' gimmick.

I think Orange Cassidy works best on the indy scene against smaller guys like Marko Stunt but not against guys that look like real professional wrestlers that could kick his ass but instead allow him to do all his goofy shit.


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## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

ManiacMichaelMyers said:


> O.C. only gets by because everyone is willing to work with him. What happens when someone says "nope" and just stiffs him? How many old school wrestlers would let themselves be openly mocked by O.C.? I can't imagine Hardcore Holly or JBL going along with it. Working with O.C. is allowing yourself to be mocked by someone possibly half your size that has a 'too cool for school' gimmick.


Unfortunately these days if you stand up for yourself your career is pretty much done for.

Eli Drake is a good example. He didn't want to work Tessa he felt it was silly and felt it'd look stupid if this 6'0+ jacked guy sold and was competitive with a 5'4 woman and he was right because Tessa was fed a majority of the top men on Impact and now has left whilst champion therefore Tessa is the greatest, kicked all the men's ass and TNA sees no benefit out of it.

But yeah, Eli allegedly lost his job because he wouldn't work with Tessa and I imagine anyone in AEW (Except the very top guys) would probably lose their gig in AEW if they refused to play ball with OC.


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## CM Buck (Sep 2, 2012)

There's nothing wrong with working a program with OC. The guy isn't Marko stunt where you can't make any money from him or there's no hope for character advancement.

His absolutely proven his worth and Jericho and he had a great story driven match from reports. His talented and there's so many things you can do with him.


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## elidrakefan76 (Jul 23, 2018)

Chip Chipperson said:


> Unfortunately these days if you stand up for yourself your career is pretty much done for.
> 
> Eli Drake is a good example. He didn't want to work Tessa he felt it was silly and felt it'd look stupid if this 6'0+ jacked guy sold and was competitive with a 5'4 woman and he was right because Tessa was fed a majority of the top men on Impact and now has left whilst champion therefore Tessa is the greatest, kicked all the men's ass and TNA sees no benefit out of it.
> 
> But yeah, Eli allegedly lost his job because he wouldn't work with Tessa and I imagine anyone in AEW (Except the very top guys) would probably lose their gig in AEW if they refused to play ball with OC.


I'm one of the biggest Eli Drake marks out there (see my username) and I think that he is arguably the best free agent available who isn't signed to AEW or WWE. He has the "it" factor as he has a good look, can work and is great on the mic but is known as someone who speaks his mind and will stand up for himself which rubs people the wrong way.

I don't blame him at all for not wanting to job to Tessa as she 5'4" 130 lbs and he is 6'0" 240 lbs. Losing to her would have greatly embarrassed him and it just isn't believable.


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## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

I used to hate Eli Drake, but that helped turn me around on him, and his NWA work was really good. When he’s not trying to be a low-rent Rock, he’s a very good talent.

Orange Cassidy would never be allowed into the ring with Brock. Shane McMahon wasn’t credible enough to get in there with Brock, and Shane is bigger, has drawn more money, has had better matches, can throw better punches, and is somewhat physically impressive as a specimen.


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## Hephaesteus (Aug 20, 2018)

The Wood said:


> I used to hate Eli Drake, but that helped turn me around on him, and his NWA work was really good. When he’s not trying to be a low-rent Rock, he’s a very good talent.
> 
> Orange Cassidy would never be allowed into the ring with Brock. Shane McMahon wasn’t credible enough to get in there with Brock, and Shane is bigger, has drawn more money, has had better matches, can throw better punches, and is somewhat physically impressive as a specimen.


Oh he'll be allowed in the ring with Brock just like truth and Bo dallas were, he'd last just as long as they did as well. Probably less since Id imagine brock beating the shit out of him as soon as he started his schtick


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## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

R-Truth is fucking shredded to hell. And he’s a veteran that’s been in it for 23 years or something at this point. Yes, he does comedy, but he’s a grown-ass man who can still throw a punch and believably beat someone up.

Bo Dallas is a heck of a talent. Great psychology (from what I saw in NXT), and a raw-boned kid. He’s been caught on the cycle of being a goofy gimmick, but if they had him doing dark and serious stuff, I think you’d see the gap between him and his brother isn’t so big, and may even be inverse.


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## One Shed (Jan 7, 2014)

I am so tired of the "you guys hate comedy" argument because it is such a straw man. Literally no one has ever made that argument. We want comedy that makes sense and does not insult our intelligence.

Brock coming out and doing a dance in front of Kofi and Seth was hilarious. Why? Because it is just Brock being Brock. Nothing phony or forced about it and if someone said anything about it, what would likely happen? Brock would suplex you 10 times. What would happen if OC playkicked anyone? OC would get knocked out in 8 seconds.

Jericho literally has over 25 years of mostly successful comedy in wrestling. But after all the talking is done, he is an actual threat in the ring. OC playkicks people IN matches and he is an unintimidating dude to boot. Who is going to back down from this guy?

We all know what is going to happen next week. Jericho is going to be in a way too long match with the guy and make him look like an actual threat. And it is going to make the product look more foolish as a result.

So I never want to hear the argument that "we just hate comedy" or "he has a place, it is not like he is main eventing" again. We hate stupid, and this is stupid. And he IS main eventing. He main evented the worst drawing segment in Dynamite history and he WILL be in the main event this coming week.


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## CenaBoy4Life (Jul 31, 2013)

jericho should judas effect him to the 2nd row when he starts his stupid shin kicks.


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## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

Brock Lesnar is a source of comedy gold. Anyone who hasn’t seen it needs to go and watch the 2020 Royal Rumble to see him interact with Keith Lee and MVP.

Comedy is fine if it’s actually funny and makes sense. But there are plenty of comedians who don’t understand comedy, let alone laypeople. It’s kind of like horror. People won’t be able to understand the difference between a realistic psycho that is presented as something scary (Vader) and something that shoots magic out of their hands. “But they’re both scary!” A better example would probably be someone presented as a gimmick by a heel manager (Leviathan, Prince Caras, The Undertaker) and someone with supernatural powers (sometimes The Undertaker, Bray Wyatt, etc.).

Things need to make sense and be something that could really happen. Play with whatever emotions you want on that spectrum. But people use the emotions to categorise and lump everything together.


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## $Dolladrew$ (Jun 15, 2020)

ManiacMichaelMyers said:


> Everytime I think about Orange Cassidy, I imagine him trying his shin kick crap on someone like Brock Lesnar.
> Brock would probably play along, laugh even, let Orange do a few shin kicks, then utterly decimate him with a series of germans and some stiff clothelines.
> 
> Now THAT would be entertainment.
> ...


When has anyone really sold his shin kicks?generally he does them as ppl look confused or unamused then they quickly drop or attack him.

I'd understand if ppl were playing along like on the indies but its definetly being overblown here.

Oc is awesome his persona only grows off the hate lol

Size isn't as big of a deal these days mma has proved a skilled small man can defeat a larger man he isn't Marko stunt he can perform fine with larger guys.


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## One Shed (Jan 7, 2014)

$Dolladrew$ said:


> When has anyone really sold his shin kicks?generally he does them as ppl look confused or unamused then they quickly drop or attack him.
> 
> I'd understand if ppl were playing along like on the indies but its definetly being overblown here.
> 
> ...


When anyone looks confused when he playkicks them it makes them look like they have never bothered to watch the show before. It becomes the same old tired intelligence insulting routine after the first time.

Weight divisions still exist for a reason in fighting sports. Having average or smaller dudes being competitive against your main eventers makes the product worse. Might as well have the cosplaying audience members get in the ring and pin some of your talent. Oh wait, they did that too.


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## $Dolladrew$ (Jun 15, 2020)

Lheurch said:


> When anyone looks confused when he playkicks them it makes them look like they have never bothered to watch the show before. It becomes the same old tired intelligence insulting routine after the first time.
> 
> Weight divisions still exist for a reason in fighting sports. Having average or smaller dudes being competitive against your main eventers makes the product worse. Might as well have the cosplaying audience members get in the ring and pin some of your talent. Oh wait, they did that too.


That argument could be made for every single wrestler ever.....like every wrestler has signature moves that are used at nauseam so you're saying guys being hit with moves that others have been hit with before look dumb like they've never seen those moves before?

Your hate for OC has blinded your ability to form a good argument.

Professional wrestling isn't a fighting sport it's not real LMFAO small guys beat big guys on the regular and in combat sports it's no different sorry bud.


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## Rozzop (Aug 26, 2019)

He is the death of wrestling.

Jericho and Jr should be ashamed to be associated with it.


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## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

$Dolladrew$ said:


> When has anyone really sold his shin kicks?generally he does them as ppl look confused or unamused then they quickly drop or attack him.
> 
> I'd understand if ppl were playing along like on the indies but its definetly being overblown here.
> 
> ...


Any time Orange Cassidy gets away with it and makes it out of the ring alive it is people selling for him. It’s like his gimmick is to spit on them and they just take it and look confused.


----------



## One Shed (Jan 7, 2014)

$Dolladrew$ said:


> That argument could be made for every single wrestler ever.....like every wrestler has signature moves that are used at nauseam so you're saying guys being hit with moves that others have been hit with before look dumb like they've never seen those moves before?
> 
> Your hate for OC has blinded your ability to form a good argument.
> 
> Professional wrestling isn't a fighting sport it's not real LMFAO small guys beat big guys on the regular and in combat sports it's no different sorry bud.


One of those things is during a match and one is before the match begins and the other person knows EXACTLY what is coming next because he does it the same each time. Also, people counter signature moves all the time! Because in kayfabe they scouted their opponents. In fantasyland, no one has ever scouted OC. Come on, how hard is this difference to see?

Again, combat sports have weight classes for a reason. Occasionally a better small guy can beat a much larger guy, but it is the exception, not the rule. I am not talking about when the smaller jiu jitsu guys absolutely killed the karate and general strongmen in the original years of UFC. That was completely different skillsets and training.

If the main event talents start to look like your audience members, what makes them special? It is not like OC has any promo skills at all either.

The more they water down the product, the more generic it is going to become and fewer people will watch. Unless you somehow think it was Jericho that led to the lowest watched segment in the history of the product?


----------



## $Dolladrew$ (Jun 15, 2020)

The Wood said:


> Any time Orange Cassidy gets away with it and makes it out of the ring alive it is people selling for him. It’s like his gimmick is to spit on them and they just take it and look confused.


That's a huge overreaction LMFAO

The guy generally does his schtick then pays for it again this is no different then another wrestlers signature moves....

You're blinded by hatred and obviously just don't get it.



Lheurch said:


> One of those things is during a match and one is before the match begins and the other person knows EXACTLY what is coming next because he does it the same each time. Also, people counter signature moves all the time! Because in kayfabe they scouted their opponents. In fantasyland, no one has ever scouted OC. Come on, how hard is this difference to see?
> 
> Again, combat sports have weight classes for a reason. Occasionally a better small guy can beat a much larger guy, but it is the exception, not the rule. I am not talking about when the smaller jiu jitsu guys absolutely killed the karate and general strongmen in the original years of UFC. That was completely different skillsets and training.
> 
> ...


The shin kicks and super kick have happened during a match too lol on multiple occasions and like I said he generally gets hit with something immediately afterward.Again your hate of OC is not helping your argument.

I'm EXTREMELY familiar with combat sports and guys like henry cejudo being multi weight champion prove you can move up and down weight and be successful if your talented enough.....that's only 1 example there's McGregor as well or you can look at guys like Anderson Silva moving up from 155 ,to 185 ,to 205 and decimating people ......there are ALOT of examples of this.

I'm not caught up in how big a guy is if his skills are good and the crowd loves him that's all that matters I mean we've seen in WWE them have small HW champions this is not a big deal.(not saying OC should be champion,just him being competitive or beating larger guys is not new or out of line at all)

Oc has the highest selling merchandise and alot of positive numbers to represent his popularity once crowds are back and packed arenas are going nuts for OC you will see how incorrect you are.


----------



## Blaze2k2 (Dec 3, 2019)

ManiacMichaelMyers said:


> Everytime I think about Orange Cassidy, I imagine him trying his shin kick crap on someone like Brock Lesnar.
> Brock would probably play along, laugh even, let Orange do a few shin kicks, then utterly decimate him with a series of germans and some stiff clothelines.
> 
> Now THAT would be entertainment.
> ...


Which has happened countless of times. Check out the match he had with Pac at the Revolution PPV. The idea with Cassidy is he plays around at first. The opponent gets pissed off and stiffs him. He then makes a comeback to the surprise of the opponent because they thought he was a joke and couldn't wrestle but it turns out he can actually wrestle. That's the Orange Cassidy gimmick in a nutshell. He plays around until he's provoked to be serious; throwing the opponent off-guard.


----------



## One Shed (Jan 7, 2014)

$Dolladrew$ said:


> The shin kicks and super kick have happened during a match too lol on multiple occasions and like I said he generally gets hit with something immediately afterward.Again your hate of OC is not helping your argument.
> 
> I'm EXTREMELY familiar with combat sports and guys like henry cejudo being multi weight champion prove you can move up and down weight and be successful if your talented enough.....that's only 1 example there's McGregor as well or you can look at guys like Anderson Silva moving up from 155 ,to 185 ,to 205 and decimating people ......there are ALOT of examples of this.
> 
> ...


You are making my point for me. Fighters can move up weight classes by....adding weight and muscle! I have said before if OC bulks up it would make a lot more sense. Would someone 155 fight someone 205 or would they put in the work to reach that weight class? Again, there is a reason those classes exist.

And here we go with the "WWE has done it before!" excuse. They also hatched Hector Guerrero wearing a turkey costume from a giant egg. That does not mean anyone else should be doing it.



Blaze2k2 said:


> Which has happened countless of times. Check out the match he had with Pac at the Revolution PPV. The idea with Cassidy is he plays around at first. The opponent gets pissed off and stiffs him. He then makes a comeback to the surprise of the opponent because they thought he was a joke and couldn't wrestle but it turns out he can actually wrestle. That's the Orange Cassidy gimmick in a nutshell. He plays around until he's provoked to be serious; throwing the opponent off-guard.


My point is no one SHOULD be surprised. They have all seen him do this before. Not knowing what he can do and not taking him seriously makes that person look like an idiot.


----------



## $Dolladrew$ (Jun 15, 2020)

Blaze2k2 said:


> Which has happened countless of times. Check out the match he had with Pac at the Revolution PPV. The idea with Cassidy is he plays around at first. The opponent gets pissed off and stiffs him. He then makes a comeback to the surprise of the opponent because they thought he was a joke and couldn't wrestle but it turns out he can actually wrestle. That's the Orange Cassidy gimmick in a nutshell. He plays around until he's provoked to be serious; throwing the opponent off-guard.


Yeah for someone hating on OC he seems to not be familiar with his work .....


----------



## Blaze2k2 (Dec 3, 2019)

Lheurch said:


> My point is no one SHOULD be surprised. They have all seen him do this before. Not knowing what he can do and not taking him seriously makes that person look like an idiot.


Okay let's say he does his usual playing around and you take him serious from the get go. At some point in the match he's still gonna make a babyface comeback even if you initially beat the crap out of him. That's just the structure of a wrestling match.


----------



## One Shed (Jan 7, 2014)

Blaze2k2 said:


> Okay let's say he does his usual playing around and you take him serious from the get go. At some point in the match he's still gonna make a babyface comeback even if you initially beat the crap out of him. That's just the structure of a wrestling match.


There is a big difference between making a babyface comeback and going along with his playkick routine. A babyface comeback involves actual fighting.


----------



## Blaze2k2 (Dec 3, 2019)

Lheurch said:


> There is a big difference between making a babyface comeback and going along with his playkick routine. A babyface comeback involves actual fighting.


We know that Orange Cassidy can legit wrestle. If the opponent takes Orange Cassidy serious from the get-go and beats the crap out of him we know at some point in the match that Orange Cassidy has the wrestling ability to make a comeback.


----------



## El Hammerstone (Jan 11, 2020)

Blaze2k2 said:


> We know that Orange Cassidy can legit wrestle. If the opponent takes Orange Cassidy serious from the get-go and beats the crap out of him we know at some point in the match that Orange Cassidy has the wrestling ability to make a comeback.


And due to his lackadaisical effort at the beginning of these matches, there is zero sympathy for the guy if he ends up losing in the end; not a good thing when a babyface is incapable of garnering this reaction.


----------



## Blaze2k2 (Dec 3, 2019)

El Hammerstone said:


> And due to his lackadaisical effort at the beginning of these matches, there is zero sympathy for the guy if he ends up losing in the end; not a good thing when a babyface is incapable of garnering this reaction.


Actually he did garner sympathy from the live crowd in the Pac match at Revolution. It was more along the lines of "he's so much fun and we love to play along with his gimmick with crowd participation that all shucks it's a shame he had to lose" kind of vibe. The crowd booed when Cassidy lost that match.


----------



## $Dolladrew$ (Jun 15, 2020)

Blaze2k2 said:


> Which has happened countless of times. Check out the match he had with Pac at the Revolution PPV. The idea with Cassidy is he plays around at first. The opponent gets pissed off and stiffs him. He then makes a comeback to the surprise of the opponent because they thought he was a joke and couldn't wrestle but it turns out he can actually wrestle. That's the Orange Cassidy gimmick in a nutshell. He plays around until he's provoked to be serious; throwing the opponent off-guard.


Yeah for someone hating on OC he seems to not be familiar with his work .....


----------



## El Hammerstone (Jan 11, 2020)

Blaze2k2 said:


> Actually he did garner sympathy from the live crowd in the Pac match at Revolution. It was more along the lines of "he's so much fun and we love to play along with his gimmick with crowd participation that all shucks it's a shame he had to lose" kind of vibe. The crowd booed when Cassidy lost that match.


Why though? Kayfabe wise, people should be thinking "well maybe you wouldn't have lost if you actually tried from the beginning moron".

It's like a student who slacks off on his schoolwork and pulls in pathetic grades all semester, only to put in great effort cramming in the last few weeks, getting his grades up but ultimately still failing by one or two percent because of the hole he previously dug for himself. I'm going to feel zero sympathy for the student, and hope this would be a lesson to him/her to actually try from the beginning next time.


----------



## One Shed (Jan 7, 2014)

Blaze2k2 said:


> We know that Orange Cassidy can legit wrestle. If the opponent takes Orange Cassidy serious from the get-go and beats the crap out of him we know at some point in the match that Orange Cassidy has the wrestling ability to make a comeback.


Right, we know all that. The problem is everyone knows that now, so his gimmick is worn out. Everyone should just punch his head off when he starts his first playkick. So now he is just a small dude who is a decent worker.


----------



## $Dolladrew$ (Jun 15, 2020)

Lheurch said:


> You are making my point for me. Fighters can move up weight classes by....adding weight and muscle! I have said before if OC bulks up it would make a lot more sense. Would someone 155 fight someone 205 or would they put in the work to reach that weight class? Again, there is a reason those classes exist.
> 
> And here we go with the "WWE has done it before!" excuse. They also hatched Hector Guerrero wearing a turkey costume from a giant egg. That does not mean anyone else should be doing it.


Its actually more common for guys to CUT weight and drop to a lower weight class then move up these days again tons of examples of guys dropping weight and being successful....

My point being weight classes aren't the end all be all not at all.

My point with the WWE is the fact it's the industry leader and has the biggest fanbase and yes its accepted smaller champions and characters to get over...


Sorry bud but you ain't winning lol no matter how mad you get.



Lheurch said:


> Right, we know all that. The problem is everyone knows that now, so his gimmick is worn out. Everyone should just punch his head off when he starts his first playkick. So now he is just a small dude who is a decent worker.


Unfortunately that's just your opinion you have the right to have it but your in the minority so acting like your opinion should be taken like fact is pretty laughable.


----------



## Blaze2k2 (Dec 3, 2019)

El Hammerstone said:


> Why though? Kayfabe wise, people should be thinking "well maybe you wouldn't have lost if you actually tried from the beginning moron".
> 
> It's like a student who slacks off on his schoolwork and pulls in pathetic grades all semester, only to put in great effort cramming in the last few weeks, getting his grades up but ultimately still failing by one or two percent because of the hole he previously dug for himself. I'm going to feel zero sympathy for the student, and hope this would be a lesson to him/her to actually try from the beginning next time.


Audiences/crowds today don't care about kayfabe they just want to be entertained. They're not looking at it from a kayfabe perspective they're looking at it from a I want to be entertained perspective. Kayfabe died a long time ago and you're not gonna be able to put that genie back in the bottle.


----------



## $Dolladrew$ (Jun 15, 2020)

Blaze2k2 said:


> Audiences/crowds today don't care about kayfabe they just want to be entertained. They're not looking at it from a kayfabe perspective they're looking at it from a I want to be entertained perspective. Kayfabe died a long time ago and you're not gonna be able to put that genie back in the bottle.


Exactly my man

No one is caught up over "wow this guys to small this isn't believable",they want to be entertained which OC happily obliges.


----------



## Blaze2k2 (Dec 3, 2019)

Lheurch said:


> Right, we know all that. The problem is everyone knows that now, so his gimmick is worn out. Everyone should just punch his head off when he starts his first playkick. So now he is just a small dude who is a decent worker.


I would say he's more than a decent worker. I've seen enough of his work to know that. It doesn't really matter what the opponent does because he's still gonna be himself regardless. It's not just about a play kick routine with Cassidy it's about his vibe. Even when he does get serious he does things in a stylish cool way.


----------



## ECFuckinW (Jun 29, 2020)

I can't wait til fans comeback these guys won't be able to handle the crowds going nuts for him and will still act like they know what fans like HAHAHAHA!!!


----------



## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

I'm shocked that people actually think OC is a good worker. He does some athletic moves, that doesn't make him a good worker. Most of his matches make little sense, struggle with psychology and aren't realistic. That's the epitome of a bad worker.

Harley Race god bless his soul would be rolling over in his grave if he knew that OC is what passes for a good worker in 2020.



$Dolladrew$ said:


> Oc is awesome his persona only grows off the hate lol


Actually it's kind of the opposite. Ratings are tanking and his gimmick has limited shelf life.


----------



## Blaze2k2 (Dec 3, 2019)

Chip Chipperson said:


> I'm shocked that people actually think OC is a good worker. He does some athletic moves, that doesn't make him a good worker. Most of his matches make little sense, struggle with psychology and aren't realistic. That's the epitome of a bad worker.


This is the non kayfabe era. It's not about realism or what logically makes sense. It's about whether or not a person can physically work a entertaining match. That's what makes Orange Cassidy a good worker in this era. Do you honestly think AEW is a promotion they cares about psychology and realism? The ultimate aim is to entertain. That's why you have video game selling, over used hotspots and comedy. You can't use a criteria from the kayfabe era to judge wrestlers/matches from the non kayfabe era. 



> Harley Race god bless his soul would be rolling over in his grave if he knew that OC is what passes for a good worker in 2020.


Race is from the kayfabe era. The old NWA where psychology, selling, storytelling, realism was strongly emphasized. Race was a great worker in his era and Orange Cassidy is a good worker in this era.


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

$Dolladrew$ said:


> That's a huge overreaction LMFAO
> 
> The guy generally does his schtick then pays for it again this is no different then another wrestlers signature moves....
> 
> You're blinded by hatred and obviously just don't get it.


If he pays for it, _why does he continue to do it?_ *That is fucking stupid.*

I get what people try to spin it into, but it makes no sense and it’s just bad. It’s really bad. A fighter who doesn’t care that he’s going into a fight is counterproductive from the outset. There is nowhere elee



Blaze2k2 said:


> We know that Orange Cassidy can legit wrestle. If the opponent takes Orange Cassidy serious from the get-go and beats the crap out of him we know at some point in the match that Orange Cassidy has the wrestling ability to make a comeback.


No, he can’t wrestle. He’s the drizzling shits. He telegraphs what he is going to do. He obviously cooperates. He cannot throw a punch, his facial expressions are horrible and he’s got no presence. He is the drizzling shits.

He is a bad worker. This idea that he’s “good when he gets going” is horseshit. He’s bad. Not only that, but _it doesn’t matter_ if he was good. It makes no sense. Why doesn’t he try to be good from the start?

Fuck, this gimmick is so stupid. Imagine if I only started trying to act about a third of the way into a movie. Fucking hell. I can’t believe people nake



El Hammerstone said:


> And due to his lackadaisical effort at the beginning of these matches, there is zero sympathy for the guy if he ends up losing in the end; not a good thing when a babyface is incapable of garnering this reaction.


Someone fucking gets it! 



Blaze2k2 said:


> Actually he did garner sympathy from the live crowd in the Pac match at Revolution. It was more along the lines of "he's so much fun and we love to play along with his gimmick with crowd participation that all shucks it's a shame he had to lose" kind of vibe. The crowd booed when Cassidy lost that match.


AEW crowds are full of mutants. People won’t like hearing it, but it’s true.


----------



## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

Blaze2k2 said:


> This is the non kayfabe era. It's not about realism or what logically makes sense. It's about whether or not a person can physically work a entertaining match. That's what makes Orange Cassidy a good worker in this era. Do you honestly think AEW is a promotion they cares about psychology and realism? The ultimate aim is to entertain. That's why you have video game selling, over used hotspots and comedy. You can't use a criteria from the kayfabe era to judge wrestlers/matches from the non kayfabe era.
> 
> 
> 
> Race is from the kayfabe era. The old NWA where psychology, selling, storytelling, realism was strongly emphasized. Race was a great worker in his era and Orange Cassidy is a good worker in this era.


The ultimate aim is to entertain and what's entertaining about wrestling is logical story telling, realistic matches and compelling characters.

AEW thinks video game selling, high spots and comedy is the way to go but what do they know? They lose on average 100,000 viewers a month.


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

It sounds like they're out of touch.


----------



## Blaze2k2 (Dec 3, 2019)

Chip Chipperson said:


> The ultimate aim is to entertain and what's entertaining about wrestling is logical story telling, realistic matches and compelling characters.


People find entertainment in wrestling in various ways. There are those who like what you have mentioned such as logical story telling, realistic matches , compelling characters etc and there are those who find entertainment in high spots, comedy, and video game selling. There's not one way to like wrestling nor should everyone be put in one box. 




> AEW thinks video game selling, high spots and comedy is the way to go but what do they know? They lose on average 100,000 viewers a month.


They're losing viewers because of no crowds and covid-19 not because of their approach to wrestling. Before the epidemic they were at 950,000 viewers and had a lot of momentum working in their favor with the upcoming Blood And Guts show that would've pushed them over 1 mil. The epidemic put a damper on all that and screwed up a lot of storylines.


----------



## One Shed (Jan 7, 2014)

$Dolladrew$ said:


> Its actually more common for guys to CUT weight and drop to a lower weight class then move up these days again tons of examples of guys dropping weight and being successful....
> 
> My point being weight classes aren't the end all be all not at all.
> 
> ...


You are making my point for me, again. A small guy can fight a big guy and vice versa after actually getting to that other weight class.

Weight classes ARE the be all and end all though, it is just weight itself is malleable. You have agreed with that.

And WWE year after year has lost more and more fans by doing dumber and dumber things. You have to at least look like you could beat a guy to be believable.


----------



## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

Blaze2k2 said:


> People find entertainment in wrestling in various ways. There are those who like what you have mentioned such as logical story telling, realistic matches , compelling characters etc and there are those who find entertainment in high spots, comedy, and video game selling. There's not one way to like wrestling nor should everyone be put in one box.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Before the pandemic they were at 950,000 which is a drop of 450,000 from October 2019.


----------



## Blaze2k2 (Dec 3, 2019)

The Wood said:


> No can’t wrestle. He’s the drizzling shits. He telegraphs what he is going to do. He obviously cooperates. He cannot throw a punch, his facial expressions are horrible and he’s got no presence. He is the drizzling shits.


This is pretty subjective but that's the idea of opinions I suppose.




> He is a bad worker. This idea that he’s “good when he gets going” is horseshit. He’s bad. Not only that, but _it doesn’t matter_ if he was good. It makes no sense. Why doesn’t he try to be good from the start?


Just curious but have you seen a lot of Orange Cassidy matches? Clearly the guy is athletic and can move in the ring .Even Stevie Wonder can see that. His movement is fluid, his move execution is solid and his selling is good. 



> Fuck, this gimmick is so stupid. Imagine if I only started trying to act about a third of the way into a movie. Fucking hell. I can’t believe people nake


Wrestling isn't real life it's a work. The bottom line is people are entertained by the Orange Cassidy gimmick. You may not be but there is an audience for what he does.




> AEW crowds are full of mutants. People won’t like hearing it, but it’s true.


So because they like something that you don't like they have to be mutants .Okay got it.



Chip Chipperson said:


> Before the pandemic they were at 950,000 which is a drop of 450,000 from October 2019.


They were trending back up. Yes there was an initial drop in viewership from the very first Dynamite because it was brand new and people wanted to check it out and see what it was about. The people who watched it that were WWE fans said meh this isn't WWE so let me go back to watching that. People that were New Japan/ Ring of Honor fans said meh this isn't New Japan/Ring of Honor and went back to watching that. The casuals tuned in and then realize it wasn't WWE so they tuned right back out. The viewership dropped down and settled around 800,000 - 750,000. Then Dynamite started the gain momentum and the viewership started the trend up. It went from 800,000 and started getting into the 900,000 to 950,000 range. They had been advertising a special Blood and guts episode of dynamite that was going to be their version of war games. It was supoose to put them over 1 mil but it never happened because the epidemic started. After that all the momentum they had went right down the drain. Now they have to wait until crowds return so they can start from scratch and build their momentum back up.


----------



## ManiacMichaelMyers (Oct 23, 2009)

Blaze2k2 said:


> Which has happened countless of times. Check out the match he had with Pac at the Revolution PPV. The idea with Cassidy is he plays around at first. The opponent gets pissed off and stiffs him. He then makes a comeback to the surprise of the opponent because they thought he was a joke and couldn't wrestle but it turns out he can actually wrestle. That's the Orange Cassidy gimmick in a nutshell. He plays around until he's provoked to be serious; throwing the opponent off-guard.


Which is fine if he's credible vs. his opponent. Having guys that are obviously bigger and stronger selling and bumping for a guy half their size is not believable and is stupid. I'm not saying it's a bad gimmick just that it has some very hard limits that are already being passed.

Even though he's not in WWE, an Orange Cassidy should NEVER beat say, Lesnar, Goldberg, Undertaker, Triple H, Randy Orton, etc...

Orange Cassidy I see as a cruiserweight comedy act. He would be fine against lower card wrestlers or other comedy acts, but he's a super niche act not designed for main event. Jericho is really just doing favors for the brand by working with him.

I honestly don't even hate O.C. I just don't think he should be anywhere near a main event scene. He should be a TV champ or a lightweight champ or something.


----------



## $Dolladrew$ (Jun 15, 2020)

Lheurch said:


> You are making my point for me, again. A small guy can fight a big guy and vice versa after actually getting to that other weight class.
> 
> Weight classes ARE the be all and end all though, it is just weight itself is malleable. You have agreed with that.
> 
> And WWE year after year has lost more and more fans by doing dumber and dumber things. You have to at least look like you could beat a guy to be believable.


No actually I'm not lol

Look at onefc and Aung Lansang the guy was a middleweight and fought guys at 205 and 265 being massively outweighed and yet he was victorious and champion.

Also openweight still exists.Also in real life you dont just fight guys your size there are more often then not size disparities and the big guy isn't always victorious.

Some people may even rally behind OC since hes a smaller guy just because you have a singular opinion doesn't make it the popular one.


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

Blaze2k2 said:


> People find entertainment in wrestling in various ways. There are those who like what you have mentioned such as logical story telling, realistic matches , compelling characters etc and there are those who find entertainment in high spots, comedy, and video game selling. There's not one way to like wrestling nor should everyone be put in one box.
> 
> They're losing viewers because of no crowds and covid-19 not because of their approach to wrestling. Before the epidemic they were at 950,000 viewers and had a lot of momentum working in their favor with the upcoming Blood And Guts show that would've pushed them over 1 mil. The epidemic put a damper on all that and screwed up a lot of storylines.


Citation needed. 

There are people who like the PWG style, but guess what? That audience is smaller than the one who likes the realistic, logical and compelling stuff. That's documented. The more phoney this shit gets, the more people tune out. Jericho and Cassidy got <550k viewers with this shit, and Jericho, who usually is realistic, logical and compelling, couldn't put Humpty Dumpty back together in that shitshow of a segment. 

People act like this is subjective, but it's a really egocentric argument. What _you_ like might be extremely niche, and yes, that's fine for you. But when you are talking about a general population, you've got to factor in what is actually going to be effective. Some things work, other things don't. You don't cast Jonah Hill as the bad-ass in the same film where Jason Statham is the I.T. guy. There is a right and there is a wrong. 

They're losing viewers because their programming has largely sucked. Even AEW fans have come in and said that. TKOWrestling and someone else whose name is escaping me have come in and said "Yeah, I can't take much more of this." Blame COVID all you want -- that's the environment you're in and studio wrestling has done extremely well in the past, and you get to have that and basically tell people how to react, so forgive me for calling this argument bullshit. 



Blaze2k2 said:


> This is pretty subjective but that's the idea of opinions I suppose.
> 
> Just curious but have you seen a lot of Orange Cassidy matches? Clearly the guy is athletic and can move in the ring .Even Stevie Wonder can see that. His movement is fluid, his move execution is solid and his selling is good.
> 
> ...


No, I haven't seen a lot of Orange Cassidy matches. He doesn't hook me, and actually repels me because he walks out, looks gormless, acts poorly and makes a joke of it in the opening minutes. I'm not _obligated_ to watch this cunt play fuckabout. He's an instant killer to anyone who doesn't like having their intelligence insulted. But, because I love doing my research, I have forced myself to watch clips of his comebacks and segments where he is "serious." They're the drizzling shits. He's a 5'10, 161lbs spot-monkey with bad body language and awful facial expressions. His selling _isn't_ good. It's piss-poor. He can't throw a punch. How the fuck can his execution be "solid?" And his movement being fluid isn't the point of fucking wrestling. His movement is supposed to be believable, which he cannot do and has clearly not been trained to do. He's been trained to act like a monkey for a bunch of seals. 

Wrestling being a work means convincing people that it could be real. That's why it's called a work. It works. Acting like it is fake is called slapstick comedy, prat-falling or play-fighting. Nobody wants to see that on TV, and nobody wants to drop $50 on a PPV to see it. The bottom line is that about 70,000 people tuned out of Dynamite last week during the final two segments, and AEW got smoked by NXT by over 300k viewers (approximately). That's over 65% of their audience. No, people are not entertained by this. You say this because you take the online bubble as a reflection of the wider and potential audience, which doesn't work. Get out of your own ego, look at the data, think about it, learn some history and don't piss on people and tell them it's raining.

And I'll use my classic example again: If I took a shit in an AEW ring. An actual fucking shit. A big steaming pile of crap after a few coffees and nice egg salad. The crowd would initially be grossed out. As anyone would be. "Why is this dude taking a shit in the ring?! We didn't pay to see this! This is fucking gross!" If I then called for a mic and gestured to the shit and said "WWE creative," the ENTIRE building would start cheering, applauding, slapping their legs, jumping up and down. You could get some GREAT reaction shots of people having a wild old laugh at the latest "brilliant" dig at WWE. And everybody knows this is true. Not one person has ever argued me on this point. They _know_ that the audience would go fucking crazy for that, literal, shit. Do you disagree? 

That is why they are mutants. They are not a fair gauge. They would cheer my WWE poo. They would cheer the dick flip. They would cheer Joey Janela licking his thumb and shoving it up Kip Sabian's ass in an I Quit Match, but instead of saying "I quit!" Sabian sings "O' Come All Ye Faithful." If you go by these fans, you are ALWAYS going to get a false read. And that is why it is so fucking telling when The Dark Order gets NOTHING from them. The Dark Order are less compelling than my actual faecal matter. 

Now, just onto a random disconnect: 

I can't remember if it was here or another forum, but I compared Orange Cassidy to David Arquette. Both are scrawny guys who don't look believable as wrestlers being forced incredulously into main event roles. Putting the WCW World Title on Arquette is one of the more infamous mistakes WCW made, right? Thought it might help people reflect on what they think is "cool" in 2020. Out of curiosity I looked up David Arquette's height and weight to compare it to Orange Cassidy's. 

According to Google:

-David Arquette is 5'10, 161lbs. 
-Orange Cassidy is 5'10, 161lbs. 

I cannot make this up. Given the obvious lack of training Cassidy has had, AEW might as well actually put David Arquette in that spot against Chris Jericho. He could at least claim 21 years as a pro at this point, if he kayfabe started training for Ready to Rumble. All he'd need to do is put his hands in his jean pockets and act like wrestling is for losers and he'd be over. He can jump through the ropes, yeah?


----------



## Blaze2k2 (Dec 3, 2019)

ManiacMichaelMyers said:


> Which is fine if he's credible vs. his opponent. Having guys that are obviously bigger and stronger selling and bumping for a guy half their size is not believable and is stupid. I'm not saying it's a bad gimmick just that it has some very hard limits that are already being passed.
> 
> Even though he's not in WWE, an Orange Cassidy should NEVER beat say, Lesnar, Goldberg, Undertaker, Triple H, Randy Orton, etc...


Of course. He's not a main eventer and never will be. He's a midcarder at best. 



> Orange Cassidy I see as a cruiserweight comedy act. He would be fine against lower card wrestlers or other comedy acts, but he's a super niche act not designed for main event. Jericho is really just doing favors for the brand by working with him.


Exactly. The only reason why Jericho is working with him is Jericho wants the company to succeed therefore trying to put over as many people as he can. He's probably giving Orange Cassidy tips on how he can better his gimmick like he's done with Sammy Guevara, Darby Allen etc. People don't realize how valuable Jericho is to the company. 



> I honestly don't even hate O.C. I just don't think he should be anywhere near a main event scene. He should be a TV champ or a lightweight champ or something.


I definitely agree with you there.


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

Nobody underestimates how valuable Jericho _should_ be to this company. JR should be valuable too, but he has to take digs at the creative direction on commentary and talk about prospects on Twitter because they won't listen to him. 

You can say OC should be a mid-carder all you want, but he shouldn't even be that. But even if he should be, he's not -- he's a main eventer. He's going to headline night two of FyterFest '20 and they will never be able to take that away.


----------



## Blaze2k2 (Dec 3, 2019)

The Wood said:


> Citation needed.
> 
> 
> There are people who like the PWG style, but guess what? That audience is smaller than the one who likes the realistic, logical and compelling stuff. That's documented. The more phoney this shit gets, the more people tune out. Jericho and Cassidy got <550k viewers with this shit, and Jericho, who usually is realistic, logical and compelling, couldn't put Humpty Dumpty back together in that shitshow of a segment.


Jericho/Cassidy got 550k for two reasons. One, it went up against NXT's Keith Lee, Finn Balor, Johnny Gargano match. A much better match on paper. Two, Orange Cassidy is a midcarder at best and shouldn't be in a main event. If that segment was earlier in the show it would've done better numbers. 




> People act like this is subjective, but it's a really egocentric argument. What you like might be extremely niche, and yes, that's fine for you. But when you are talking about a general population, you've got to factor in what is actually going to be effective. Some things work, other things don't. You don't cast Jonah Hill as the bad-ass in the same film where Jason Statham is the I.T. guy. There is a right and there is a wrong.


I like a little bit of everything so I wouldn't classify what I like as niche. The reason I like AEW is because it's a hybrid of a lot of different things. 



> They're losing viewers because their programming has largely sucked. Even AEW fans have come in and said that. TKOWrestling and someone else whose name is escaping me have come in and said "Yeah, I can't take much more of this."


There are AEW fans that feel that way and there's fans that don't feel that way. There's no general consensus one way or the other. 



> Blame COVID all you want -- that's the environment you're in and studio wrestling has done extremely well in the past


Studio wrestling hasn't been relevant since the 80's and even then you still had a crowd to play off of. Bottom line people are getting tired of crowd less shows. Even if AEW put on their best show it's still not gonna get them in the 950,000 of viewership pre pandemic. 




> so forgive me for calling this argument bullshit.


You can believe it's bullshit all you want but the evidence suggests otherwise.




> No, I haven't seen a lot of Orange Cassidy matches. He doesn't hook me, and actually repels me because he walks out, looks gormless, acts poorly and makes a joke of it in the opening minutes. I'm not obligated to watch this cunt play fuckabout. He's an instant killer to anyone who doesn't like having their intelligence insulted. But, because I love doing my research, I have forced myself to watch clips of his comebacks and segments where he is "serious." They're the drizzling shits. He's a 5'10, 161lbs spot-monkey with bad body language and awful facial expressions.


Again this is all subjective bro. Bad body language? That's his gimmick. Awful facial expressions? Lol, who cares? 




> His selling isn't good. It's piss-poor.


It's good enough. 



> He can't throw a punch. How the fuck can his execution be "solid?"


His execution is solid on a lot of moves such as a dropkick, tope suicida, cross body block, Tilt-A-Whirl DDT, Superman punch (Does it 10 times better than Roman Reigns) , Top Rope DDT counter, Diving DDT, Stunner (Counter), etc.



> And his movement being fluid isn't the point of fucking wrestling. His movement is supposed to be believable, which he cannot do and has clearly not been trained to do. He's been trained to act like a monkey for a bunch of seals.


I like how people try to say wrestling should be a certain way.




> Wrestling being a work means convincing people that it could be real. That's why it's called a work. It works. Acting like it is fake is called slapstick comedy, prat-falling or play-fighting.


Kayfabe is dead bro. it's a work meaning it's fake so let's not insult the intelligence of the audience by pretending that it's real or even trying to make it look real. That's what modern wrestling is. This is the non kayfabe era. Trying to apply kayfabe era criticisms to non kayfabe wrestling doesn't make sense. 



> Nobody wants to see that on TV, and nobody wants to drop $50 on a PPV to see it.


Nobody wants to drop $50 on a pay-per-view whether it's protrayed real or not. 




> The bottom line is that about 70,000 people tuned out of Dynamite last week during the final two segments, and AEW got smoked by NXT by over 300k viewers (approximately). That's over 65% of their audience. No, people are not entertained by this. You say this because you take the online bubble as a reflection of the wider and potential audience, which doesn't work. Get out of your own ego, look at the data, think about it, learn some history and don't piss on people and tell them it's raining.


I look at the data and I know whenever AEW loses viewership they do something to turn it around. That's not ego it's Just historical fact. Since these Wednesday night Wars began AEW has beaten NXT most of the time. The epidemic happen and they went into a slump. A lot of their storylines got screwed up. They'll figure out a way to correct it but don't believe for one second that this has anything to do with their approach to wrestling not being realistic enough. 




> And I'll use my classic example again: If I took a shit in an AEW ring. An actual fucking shit. A big steaming pile of crap after a few coffees and nice egg salad. The crowd would initially be grossed out. As anyone would be. "Why is this dude taking a shit in the ring?! We didn't pay to see this! This is fucking gross!" If I then called for a mic and gestured to the shit and said "WWE creative," the ENTIRE building would start cheering, applauding, slapping their legs, jumping up and down.


Bullshit! 



> You could get some GREAT reaction shots of people having a wild old laugh at the latest "brilliant" dig at WWE. And everybody knows this is true. Not one person has ever argued me on this point. They know that the audience would go fucking crazy for that, literal, shit. Do you disagree?


I don't believe that for one second. 




> That is why they are mutants. They are not a fair gauge. They would cheer my WWE poo. They would cheer the dick flip. They would cheer Joey Janela licking his thumb and shoving it up Kip Sabian's ass in an I Quit Match, but instead of saying "I quit!" Sabian sings "O' Come All Ye Faithful." If you go by these fans, you are ALWAYS going to get a false read.


I just don't buy into that narrative. The rest I won't bother answering because it's just rambling.



The Wood said:


> Nobody underestimates how valuable Jericho _should_ be to this company. JR should be valuable too, but he has to take digs at the creative direction on commentary and talk about prospects on Twitter because they won't listen to him.
> 
> You can say OC should be a mid-carder all you want, but he shouldn't even be that. But even if he should be, he's not -- he's a main eventer. He's going to headline night two of FyterFest '20 and they will never be able to take that away.


I just read results already leaked out from night 2 of Fyter Fest. I won't post spoilers but they said that the Cassidy/Jericho match lived up to its main event billing. I can't wait to see it.


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

I'm going to go through and respond to everything. Too much work to break quotes down. You're completely wrong on kayfabe and what a work is. Not giving a shit is insulting to the intelligence of people. AEW has not turned their ratings around. They've lost about half their live television audience. He's not good enough, and it's nice of you to admit that right at the start. It's clear they've got no idea what they're doing.


----------



## Blaze2k2 (Dec 3, 2019)

The Wood said:


> I'm going to go through and respond to everything. Too much work to break quotes down. You're completely wrong on kayfabe and what a work is. Not giving a shit is insulting to the intelligence of people.


If I know it's fake and they try to pretend it's real that insults my intelligence. It's simple logic. it would be better if you just entertained me within the realm of it being fake. That's why I don't lmind video game selling ,high spots and all of that because it's not real anyway so who cares. if I want to watch something real I'll watch UFC. With this being said I don't mind promotions that betray their wrestling as real (New Japan) I just don't heep criticism on promotions that don't. I like it all! 



> AEW has not turned their ratings around. They've lost about half their live television audience.


They have not turned them around yet but they will. Too much talent not to.



> He's not good enough, and it's nice of you to admit that right at the start. It's clear they've got no idea what they're doing.


As I 've said before the pandemic screwed up a lot of their storylines so now they're scrambling to put together something that's cohesive. They'll get it fixed.


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

And we're back to you being in the very small minority that it is, honestly, not wise to cater to. Most people feel insulted when you don't try and exist within their genre. And it goes to prove a larger point, that the people who don't mind having their intelligence insulted still like the stuff that tries. So what's the point in not trying? 

No, it's not inevitable they will turn the ratings around. What evidence is there to suggest that this will be the case. Chip shared the observation that they lose about 100k viewers a month. Which talent is going to turn it around? This stuff with Orange Cassidy has eroded the appeal of Chris Jericho. AEW got about 538k viewers to NXT's 852k. That's well outside a 10% margin of error. NXT was closer to doubling their viewership than AEW was to closing in on them. 

Citation needed. The pandemic may have stopped Blood & Guts or whatever from happening, but they Stadium Stampede instead. What else has been messed up? No Pac? Cool. Even if he's a great talent, he's no draw. And needing to come up with new plans doesn't justify shit that isn't going to fly. People act like there are only two options. You can improvise well.


----------



## Rozzop (Aug 26, 2019)

Orange Cassidy is the epitome of synchronised gymnastics. 

It's not wrestling. 

He can't even throw a punch.

Kayfabe might have died a long time ago and having super realistic matches in 2020 is somewhat unrealistic, but OC goes in the extreme other direction. 

You wanted Sting to rip Hogan's head off. You wanted Austin to rip Vinces head off. You wanted Michaels to evade Undertaker in the Cell. 

Even if you kinda knew it was all fake, you wanted a fight. 

Ever hear Omegas fans wanting him to rip so and so's head off? No. It's more like "this is gonna get 5 stars from Meltzer" 

The fan base has changed. They don't want to watch a fight. They want to watch a choreographed spotfest. 

The ones that do want to watch a fight simply switch off.


----------



## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

I know it's the two greatest of all time but compare the following brawl between Austin and Rock before their PPV match in 2001 to Jericho and Cassidy. Keep in mind these comparisons to Austin and Rock aren't too farfetched because Jericho is just one or two steps below those guys whilst Orange Cassidy is being called the next Rock by many of you.






Skip to 4:25 for the brawl.

Or






Austin/Rock has two grown men throwing wild punches at one another and grappling on the floor, referees getting involved, other wrestlers getting involved, the cops turning up, Vince McMahon angrily shouting for help to break both men up and ends with both men having to be physically separated and contained to different dressing rooms.

Cassidy/Jericho has one of the worst double legs I've ever seen, some weak brawling and a running superman punch which admittedly looked decent.

Which segment was better?


----------



## CM Buck (Sep 2, 2012)

I enjoyed both  should have done a comparison of Luther and stunt and I would have agreed with your point.

Though no one in modern wrestling throws a decent hand. I mean without boxing experience. Except maybe Roman or Walter. People for whatever reason prefer forearms or elbows. Brawling is a lost art


----------



## Blaze2k2 (Dec 3, 2019)

Rozzop said:


> Orange Cassidy is the epitome of synchronised gymnastics.
> 
> It's not wrestling.


It's modern wrestling. (Performance art)



> He can't even throw a punch.


Sure he can. He does an amazing Superman punch. Even if he couldn't it doesn't matter.



> Kayfabe might have died a long time ago and having super realistic matches in 2020 is somewhat unrealistic, but OC goes in the extreme other direction.


He's no different then The Undertaker. It's all bullshit but we're entertained by it.



> You wanted Sting to rip Hogan's head off. You wanted Austin to rip Vinces head off. You wanted Michaels to evade Undertaker in the Cell.
> 
> Even if you kinda knew it was all fake, you wanted a fight.


Not me,. I just want to be entertained. When you know it's fake imy desires to want to see a fight are simply not going to be there. I'm watching it as I would watch Circus Soleil.



> Ever hear Omegas fans wanting him to rip so and so's head off? No. It's more like "this is gonna get 5 stars from Meltzer"
> 
> The fan base has changed. They don't want to watch a fight. They want to watch a choreographed spotfest.


It's performance art so when fans evaluate matches today they're looking at it from a different perspective. They want to see whether or not there were any botches in the match. Did the wrestlers perform their moves in a crisp, fluid manner or was it sloppy? Was the match paced properly? Things of that nature.



> The ones that do want to watch a fight simply switch off.


Yeah, they go watch something that's actually real like UFC (MMA) and stop wasting their time watching pretend bullshit.


----------



## Pitbull37 (Apr 6, 2020)

Blaze2k2 said:


> It's performance art so when fans evaluate matches today they're looking at it from a different perspective. They want to see whether or not there were any botches in the match. Did the wrestlers perform their moves in a crisp, fluid manner or was it sloppy? Was the match paced properly? Things of that nature.


I this no you might have spent too much time on the internet While this might be true for most wrestling fans online, it's not what most people care about. Which is one reason why wrestling isn't popular anymore.


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## Blaze2k2 (Dec 3, 2019)

Pitbull37 said:


> I this no you might have spent too much time on the internet While this might be true for most wrestling fans online, it's not what most people care about.


Honestly, how would you know what most people care about? Throwing around a blanket statement with no evidence to support such holds no value. 



> Which is one reason why wrestling isn't popular anymore.


Wrestling isn't popular anymore because once people realized how fake it was they stop caring. There's only so many times you can have your intelligence insulted by fake fighting before you tune completely out. Then something great happened and that was the birth of MMA (Mixed Martial Arts). People didn't have to have their intelligence insulted anymore and they could actually watch real fighting. When that happened wrestling's popularity went into the crapper.


----------



## Rozzop (Aug 26, 2019)

Blaze2k2 said:


> It's modern wrestling. (Performance art)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You're welcome to enjoy what you enjoy but the wider audience for Circus Soleil is just not there. 

Wrestling was never performance art. 

If thats how things are why don't we have judges at ringside judging the action? 

Properly do away with illusion that an actual fight is happening and grade different portions of the match? 

I think this would appeal to a large number of wrestling fans today who seem to consider it performance art.

Young Bucks against Omega and Page. Just have a selection of judges at ringside grading the numerous top rope suicidas and superkicks then after a 5 minute round they can lift up score cards. 

Crowd will pop for Omega getting a 9 and so on. 

Thats where the attention is so why not go full throttle?

Make wrestling a proper gymnastic performance and do away with the illusion that a fight or struggle is happening.


----------



## Blaze2k2 (Dec 3, 2019)

Rozzop said:


> You're welcome to enjoy what you enjoy but the wider audience for Circus Soleil is just not there.
> 
> Wrestling was never performance art.
> 
> ...


I wouldn't mind that at all. The reason AEW doesn't do this is because it's a hybrid of different styles and philosophies. It's Lucha Libre, DDT, New Japan, PWG, Indy, etc all rolled into one. But I would love a promotion to come around that would be exclusively performance art. It would be a breath of fresh air.


----------



## Pitbull37 (Apr 6, 2020)

Blaze2k2 said:


> Honestly, how would you know what most people care about? Throwing around a blanket statement with no evidence to support such holds no value.
> 
> 
> 
> Wrestling isn't popular anymore because once people realized how fake it was they stop caring. There's only so many times you can have your intelligence insulted by fake fighting before you tune completely out. Then something great happened and that was the birth of MMA (Mixed Martial Arts). People didn't have to have their intelligence insulted anymore and they could actually watch real fighting. When that happened wrestling's popularity went into the crapper.


Then you throw out blanket statements without evidence about why people don't watch wrestling anymore which holds no value.

All my friends used to like wrestling. There used to be huge groups of us watching PPV's. Not a single one of us watched it to see if the moves were crisp or if there were any blotches, if the matches were paced well, or if fhe wrestlers perform their moves in a crisp, fluid manner or was it sloppy? I've never met a single person who watches wrestling who cared about that. It's only people on internet forums who talk about it. We cared about the characters, promos, storyline and a bit about if the match got us emotionally involved. 

You say that wrestling isn't popular anymore as people realised how fake it is and stopped caring. Don't you realised everyone knew that when it was popular? 
People would watch again if they made it good again, but the storylines and characters in all of wrestling are boring. All of my friends would watch again, but they have already given up on AEW after seeing a wrestler with his hands in his pockets.


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

Chip Chipperson said:


> I know it's the two greatest of all time but compare the following brawl between Austin and Rock before their PPV match in 2001 to Jericho and Cassidy. Keep in mind these comparisons to Austin and Rock aren't too farfetched because Jericho is just one or two steps below those guys whilst Orange Cassidy is being called the next Rock by many of you.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You can’t compare old wrestling to new wrestling, Chip. It’s evolved! 



Blaze2k2 said:


> Honestly, how would you know what most people care about? Throwing around a blanket statement with no evidence to support such holds no value.
> 
> 
> 
> Wrestling isn't popular anymore because once people realized how fake it was they stop caring. There's only so many times you can have your intelligence insulted by fake fighting before you tune completely out. Then something great happened and that was the birth of MMA (Mixed Martial Arts). People didn't have to have their intelligence insulted anymore and they could actually watch real fighting. When that happened wrestling's popularity went into the crapper.


There _is_ evidence though! This is what is frustrating. We know how many used to watch, and we know how many don’t now. Just the other week we saw Jericho and Cassidy sit on about 538k viewers for their main event segment, something which doesn’t usually happen to Jericho. And people are sticking their fingers in their ears and going “La-la-la-la! I’m not listening! La-la-la-la! Where’s the evidence?!”



Pitbull37 said:


> Then you throw out blanket statements without evidence about why people don't watch wrestling anymore which holds no value.
> 
> All my friends used to like wrestling. There used to be huge groups of us watching PPV's. Not a single one of us watched it to see if the moves were crisp or if there were any blotches, if the matches were paced well, or if fhe wrestlers perform their moves in a crisp, fluid manner or was it sloppy? I've never met a single person who watches wrestling who cared about that. It's only people on internet forums who talk about it. We cared about the characters, promos, storyline and a bit about if the match got us emotionally involved.
> 
> ...


Amazing post. And username, haha.


----------



## One Shed (Jan 7, 2014)

Blaze2k2 said:


> It's modern wrestling. (Performance art)
> 
> Not me,. I just want to be entertained. When you know it's fake imy desires to want to see a fight are simply not going to be there. I'm watching it as I would watch Circus Soleil.
> 
> It's performance art so when fans evaluate matches today they're looking at it from a different perspective. They want to see whether or not there were any botches in the match. Did the wrestlers perform their moves in a crisp, fluid manner or was it sloppy? Was the match paced properly? Things of that nature.


Then start a company called All Elite Gymnastics? Do not promise one thing and deliver another.

On an unrelated note, Cirque du Soleil filed for bankruptcy last week.

Matches are not supposed to be 100% crisp and no mistakes made. WANTING it to look choreographed is insane to me. If you want something like that, make your gymnastics company but do not insult wrestling by calling it wrestling.

Want a free punch (not choreographed) to the head? Walk up to any wrestling vet and tell them you always enjoyed their performance art.

Even worked things still need power rules. Bucks popping up in two seconds completely takes you out of any emotional investment in a match. It slaps you in the face and reminds you it is all fake. Imagine if Hawkeye took a punch from Thanos and just popped back up. You can imagine the most far out sci-fi movie that is nothing like real life, but you still have to follow the rules you create for your universe. You cannot have skinny small dudes like the Bucks doing what they do and then in the next match dudes do proper selling. You make a schizophrenic product that manages to insult everyone.


----------



## Blaze2k2 (Dec 3, 2019)

Pitbull37 said:


> Then you throw out blanket statements without evidence about why people don't watch wrestling anymore which holds no value.
> 
> All my friends used to like wrestling. There used to be huge groups of us watching PPV's. Not a single one of us watched it to see if the moves were crisp or if there were any blotches, if the matches were paced well, or if fhe wrestlers perform their moves in a crisp, fluid manner or was it sloppy? I've never met a single person who watches wrestling who cared about that. It's only people on internet forums who talk about it. We cared about the characters, promos, storyline and a bit about if the match got us emotionally involved.


I grew up watching wrestling in the early 80's and I would watch a lot of it with my cousins who I would spend time with on the weekends. We mainly followed promotions like NWA (Jim Crockett promotions), World Class Championship Wrestling, AWA and WWF. If we were lucky we would get a chance to watch the Japan promotions like All Japan and New Japan through vhs or beta tapes. You had to know somebody with the hookup. 

Yes we enjoyed the storylines and characters and all of that but for us it was always about match quality. We loved watching great wrestling matches so when something wasn't up to par we would chuckle to each other and call it out. If someone would botch a Brainbuster we would say what the fuck was that? If someone would Irish whip somebody on the ropes and the transition was sloppy we would roll our eyes and say "get it together guys". 

We loved movement and moves done in a crisp, fluid, manner. Probably the reason to this day the Great Muta is my favorite worker is because of how graceful his movement was and how beautiful his execution was. We loved Ric Flair's figure four leg lock, Dusty Rhodes's shake and bake bionic elbow routine, Jimmy Garvin's brainbuster, Tully Blanchard's slingshot suplex, Jake The Snake's DDT, etc. Because these moves were executed flawlessly we would often go in the backyard and try to emulate them.

We would always gravitate towards watching great matches however you had to watch a ton of bullshit before you got to that. Hell, we were rating matches back then. We weren't necessarily using a star system but If we didn't like a match it usually revolved around some botch or screwjob DQ finish. Even when I watched wrestling with my mother she would know when something was bullshit. There were no internet forums back then just fans who called out bullshit when they saw it.



> You say that wrestling isn't popular anymore as people realised how fake it is and stopped caring. Don't you realised everyone knew that when it was popular?
> People would watch again if they made it good again, but the storylines and characters in all of wrestling are boring. All of my friends would watch again, but they have already given up on AEW after seeing a wrestler with his hands in his pockets.


Casuals aren't gonna return to watching wrestling no matter what you do. There's real fighting they can watch now. They don't have to watch fake bullshit anymore.


----------



## One Shed (Jan 7, 2014)

Blaze2k2 said:


> Casuals aren't gonna return to watching wrestling no matter what you do. There's real fighting they can watch now. They don't have to watch fake bullshit anymore.


"Trying is the first step towards failing." Why even bother trying when it just cannot be done? Why do so many people on here ignore all of history?


----------



## Pitbull37 (Apr 6, 2020)

Blaze2k2 said:


> I grew up watching wrestling in the early 80's and I would watch a lot of it with my cousins who I would spend time with on the weekends. We mainly followed promotions like NWA (Jim Crockett promotions), World Class Championship Wrestling, AWA and WWF. If we were lucky we would get a chance to watch the Japan promotions like All Japan and New Japan through vhs or beta tapes. You had to know somebody with the hookup.
> 
> Yes we enjoyed the storylines and characters and all of that but for us it was always about match quality. We loved watching great wrestling matches so when something wasn't up to par we would chuckle to each other and call it out. If someone would botch a Brainbuster we would say what the fuck was that? If someone would Irish whip somebody on the ropes and the transition was sloppy we would roll our eyes and say "get it together guys".
> 
> ...


You have to accept that it's a very small percentage of people who think like you do when it comes to wrestling. 

Do you really think a large percentage of the millions who tuned in to watch Austin, Hogan, NWO or the Rock did so because they wanted to pick apart and judge their matches?

No one used to watch wrestling because they wanted to watch real fighting and there wasn't any available. That's a crazy thing to say.


----------



## Blaze2k2 (Dec 3, 2019)

Lheurch said:


> Matches are not supposed to be 100% crisp and no mistakes made.


I'm not talking about "no mistakes" made in the context of a competitive contest. Logically opponent A is not going to successfully land every single move he/she does without opponent B countering in some fashion. I'm talking about mistakes made in the form of botches where an action was intended to go a certain way whether it be through a move, transition, movement and it didn't succeed because someone fucked up. Hell, I remember that use to be the go-to chant in ECW when somebody botched something. The crowd would chant "You fucked up". 




> WANTING it to look choreographed is insane to me. If you want something like that, make your gymnastics company but do not insult wrestling by calling it wrestling.


Wrestling isn't wrestling bro. It's scripted bullshit. Real Wrestling is an actual martial art that doesn't involve Irish whips, body slams, punches or any things of that nature. If anything is an insult to actual wrestling is professional wrestling. I don't care about whether or not something looks choreographed as long as I'm entertained.




> Want a free punch (not choreographed) to the head? Walk up to any wrestling vet and tell them you always enjoyed their performance art.


There's a difference between old school kayfabe wrestlers and new school non kayfabe wrestlers. I could go up to Kenny Omega and say I enjoyed your performance art and guess what? He would think me for it where as if I went up to Ric Flair and said that I would get a different reaction. 



> Even worked things still need power rules. Bucks popping up in two seconds completely takes you out of any emotional investment in a match. It slaps you in the face and reminds you it is all fake.


Going into watching a wrestling match I already know it's fake so I'm not going into it with any expectations of anything being reflected as real. I'm watching it from the perspective of how well the performance is done as I would a play. 



> Imagine if Hawkeye took a punch from Thanos and just popped back up.


Trying to apply realism metrics to a choreographed performance is a waste of time. 



> You can imagine the most far out sci-fi movie that is nothing like real life, but you still have to follow the rules you create for your universe.


In the modern wrestling (performance art) universe anything goes. Teleportation, video game selling, supernatural abilities you name it. It's all on the table.



Pitbull37 said:


> You have to accept that it's a very small percentage of people who think like you do when it comes to wrestling.


I don't know if that's necessarily true.



> Do you really think a large percentage of the millions who tuned in to watch Austin, Hogan, NWO or the Rock did so because they wanted to pick apart and judge their matches?


Maybe not to the extent that I or my friends do but if there was some obvious bullshit it got called out. This was very prevalent in the ECW fandom.



> No one used to watch wrestling because they wanted to watch real fighting and there wasn't any available. That's a crazy thing to say.


I'm saying people grew tired of wrestling because there was only so much fake stuff you could stomach so when there was a real alternative available they gravitated towards that. Hence part of the reason why the UFC is as popular it is as it is today.



Lheurch said:


> "Trying is the first step towards failing." Why even bother trying when it just cannot be done? Why do so many people on here ignore all of history?


History tells us when the UFC came on the scene in 1993 and found its footing it drew away a lot of casuals from watching professional wrestling. Now you're saying if professional wrestling just went back to a more realistic approach they could get all those casuals back. Oh really?



The Wood said:


> There _is_ evidence though! This is what is frustrating. We know how many used to watch, and we know how many don’t now.


Yes, and we know in 1993 UFC (Mixed Martial Arts) was born and that drew a lot of fans away from professional wrestling. it wasn't simply fans leaving on the basis of the modern day approach to wrestling.


----------



## One Shed (Jan 7, 2014)

Blaze2k2 said:


> I'm not talking about "no mistakes" made in the context of a competitive contest. Logically opponent A is not going to successfully land every single move he/she does without opponent B countering in some fashion. I'm talking about mistakes made in the form of botches where an action was intended to go a certain way whether it be through a move, transition, movement and it didn't succeed because someone fucked up. Hell, I remember that use to be the go-to chant in ECW when somebody botched something. The crowd would chant "You fucked up".


OK



Blaze2k2 said:


> Wrestling isn't wrestling bro. It's scripted bullshit. Real Wrestling is an actual martial art that doesn't involve Irish whips, body slams, punches or any things of that nature. If anything is an insult to actual wrestling is professional wrestling. I don't care about whether or not something looks choreographed as long as I'm entertained.


I never said pro wrestling was the same as amateur wrestling. If you want to ignore all of the elements of pro wrestling, at least have the decency to name your product something else, or when you announce your product call it "performance art" and not "a sports-based presentation."



Blaze2k2 said:


> There's a difference between old school kayfabe wrestlers and new school non kayfabe wrestlers. I could go up to Kenny Omega and say I enjoyed your performance art and guess what? He would think me for it where as if I went up to Ric Flair and said that I would get a different reaction.


Yeah, there is a reason Harley Race could not stand Omega.



Blaze2k2 said:


> Going into watching a wrestling match I already know it's fake so I'm not going into it with any expectations of anything being reflected as real. I'm watching it from the perspective of how well the performance is done as I would a play.


You also walk into every movie that way. If you go watch Phantom of the Opera and Christine pulls out a cell phone to call 911, you are completely taken out of the play. You HAVE to obey the rules you set in your universe. That is my point.



Blaze2k2 said:


> Trying to apply realism metrics to a choreographed performance is a waste of time.


It is not realism per se, it is obeying the laws of your own universe. There is no realism to a giant purple guy teleporting between planets, but you still have people defined as having certain powers, and others that are human. If you had a human character like Hawkeye suddenly jump up two seconds after getting hit by Thanos you violate your own rules and confuse your audience.



Blaze2k2 said:


> In the modern wrestling (performance art) universe anything goes. Teleportation, video game selling, supernatural abilities you name it. It's all on the table.


Yeah we just flat out disagree there. If you make your product this schizophrenic and inconsistent then you confuse your audience and they start to leave. Which is exactly what we have seen. If something can mean anything, it means nothing. If you want Professional Performance Art, call it that. You do not call it Pro Wrestling and promise a sports-based presentation and then get to be surprised when potential fans criticize your inconsistent clown show.



Blaze2k2 said:


> History tells us when the UFC came on the scene in 1993 and found its footing it drew away a lot of casuals from watching professional wrestling. Now you're saying if professional wrestling just went back to a more realistic approach they could get all those casuals back. Oh really?


That is not at all what history tells us. WCW and ECW closed up shop and WWE quality deteriorated causing more and more people to leave. Did the UFC gaining popularity cause most people to stop watching boxing too?

The industry needs to take themselves more seriously, offer a more realistic product with smart comedy, not dumb comedy. For WWE, that means stop with the wooden, scripted promos. For AEW it means a lot of things, but long character arcs are all the rage now in TV shows. Plan out what you are going to do and stop having your most famous guy on top and then getting playkicks from a skinny goof. Stop telling me two small goofs who know next to nothing about selling and psychology are the reincarnation of the Midnight Express. Just stop insulting your audience and present a product people want to watch. That usually is a good place to start.



Blaze2k2 said:


> Yes, and we know in 1993 UFC (Mixed Martial Arts) was born and that drew a lot of fans away from professional wrestling. it wasn't simply fans leaving on the basis of the modern day approach to wrestling.


Yes, because UFC, WWF, and WCW popularity did not grow simultaneously for many years. Oh wait, it did!

Did UFC cause you to stop watching?


----------



## Hephaesteus (Aug 20, 2018)

Yea that brawl with Jericho and Cassidy was embarrassing. Jericho having to sell that shit, lol wow


----------



## Blaze2k2 (Dec 3, 2019)

Lheurch said:


> Yes, because UFC, WWF, and WCW popularity did not grow simultaneously for many years. Oh wait, it did!
> 
> Did UFC cause you to stop watching?


Nope, but I'm not a casual.


----------



## El Hammerstone (Jan 11, 2020)

Hephaesteus said:


> Yea that brawl with Jericho and Cassidy was embarrassing. Jericho having to sell that shit, lol wow


Another funny thing is that they went ahead and documented OC's bloody ear on it's very own t-shirt, only for the bloody ear spot to be outdone less than a week later on Raw.


----------



## Blaze2k2 (Dec 3, 2019)

Lheurch said:


> That is not at all what history tells us. WCW and ECW closed up shop and WWE quality deteriorated causing more and more people to leave. Did the UFC gaining popularity cause most people to stop watching boxing too?


Yep


----------



## One Shed (Jan 7, 2014)

Blaze2k2 said:


> Yep


What???

10/10 of the top boxing PPV buy rates happened after UFC started. Seven of them were in this century. 10/10 of the top WWE buy rates were in this century. The top ten PPV buy rates include seven for boxing and three for UFC, all of the boxing ones occurred after UFC started and five were this century.

It is almost like when you create a superstar in your industry you get more eyeballs on your product. Mayweather, Conor, Tyson, The Rock, Stone Cold, Hogan. When someone like Jordan comes along in basketball it changes things in a major way.

In the time of no true era defining superstar, is it any wonder why wrestling popularity is down???


----------



## Pitbull37 (Apr 6, 2020)

Blaze2k2 said:


> I don't know if that's necessarily true.


If you think that a large percentage of the millions that used to watch wrestling watched it for the reasons you listed than you really don't know what you're talking about.

One of the main reasons wrestling had the boom periods when Austin was about was the feud between Austin and Vince. It was the stories and star power that got people to watch. Millions didn't tune in to see if there were any mistakes in the match, or if the moves were crisp. Casual fans don't think about wrestling the same way you do.


----------



## $Dolladrew$ (Jun 15, 2020)

Lheurch said:


> What???
> 
> 10/10 of the top boxing PPV buy rates happened after UFC started. Seven of them were in this century. 10/10 of the top WWE buy rates were in this century. The top ten PPV buy rates include seven for boxing and three for UFC, all of the boxing ones occurred after UFC started and five were this century.
> 
> ...



Mma absolutely dipped into boxing's audience one of the biggest ppvs was featuring an mma guy who never pro boxed before lol and mma is entirely the reason me and my friends stopped watching wrestling, once you see real fighting play fighting is just unwatchable.


----------



## One Shed (Jan 7, 2014)

$Dolladrew$ said:


> Mma absolutely dipped into boxing's audience one of the biggest ppvs was featuring an mma guy who never pro boxed before lol and mma is entirely the reason me and my friends stopped watching wrestling, once you see real fighting play fighting is just unwatchable.


They cross pollinate for sure, but boxing's largest buy rates occur alongside UFC, not before it. That was my point.

Also, you are watching play fighting again so...


----------



## $Dolladrew$ (Jun 15, 2020)

Lheurch said:


> They cross pollinate for sure, but boxing's largest buy rates occur alongside UFC, not before it. That was my point.
> 
> Also, you are watching play fighting again so...


It was a perfect storm that led to my return to wrasslin.

Mma became about streaming and I left my job on a few websites leaving me with some free time.As I've stated before I tried watching WWE a few times to no avail it plain sucked ass.

Then I seen the buzz about AEW getting the TNT deal and as soon as I seen the 1st episode I got the fix I needed and now I'm hooked.If it weren't for AEW I wouldn't be watching at all.


----------



## One Shed (Jan 7, 2014)

$Dolladrew$ said:


> It was a perfect storm that led to my return to wrasslin.
> 
> Mma became about streaming and I left my job on a few websites leaving me with some free time.As I've stated before I tried watching WWE a few times to no avail it plain sucked ass.
> 
> Then I seen the buzz about AEW getting the TNT deal and as soon as I seen the 1st episode I got the fix I needed and now I'm hooked.If it weren't for AEW I wouldn't be watching at all.


So play fighting IS indeed watchable for you again. So you CAN have UFC and a larger wrestling audience. So many seem to argue that it is one or the other. Just like when WWF had WCW, competition can (but not necessarily) lift all boats. Hence my reference to when most of the top boxing PPV buyrates actually occurred. They happened in part because UFC created a bunch of new fans interested in fighting and combat sports. Many will at least try out similar things to the thing that initially got their interest.


----------



## CM Buck (Sep 2, 2012)

Wrestling is NOT a performance art. It's simulated combat. What chip and wood don't understand is there's room for stupid fun. OC is stupid fun. Like watching the godfather and his hos, rikishi giving the stink face etc.

Hell the undertaker and Kane are fucking retarded gimmicks and everyone loves them. Ooooo I'm a deadman who plays with souls. Oooooo I'm a dude who can control fire.


----------



## $Dolladrew$ (Jun 15, 2020)

Lheurch said:


> So play fighting IS indeed watchable for you again. So you CAN have UFC and a larger wrestling audience. So many seem to argue that it is one or the other. Just like when WWF had WCW, competition can (but not necessarily) lift all boats. Hence my reference to when most of the top boxing PPV buyrates actually occurred. They happened in part because UFC created a bunch of new fans interested in fighting and combat sports. Many will at least try out similar things to the thing that initially got their interest.


Actually no it is one or the other for me I dont watch mma anymore I only watch aew if I watched mma I wouldn't be watching wrestling.


----------



## One Shed (Jan 7, 2014)

$Dolladrew$ said:


> Actually no it is one or the other for me I dont watch mma anymore I only watch aew if I watched mma I wouldn't be watching wrestling.


What a strange black or white world you live in. I would think most people might want to watch similar products to ones they already like. WWF vs WCW certainly backs that up, most watched both and I have shown how the top boxing, wrestling, and MMA PPVs have all existed simultaneously in the same time period, with likely a large overlap. I mean, if that is how you are fair enough, but I cannot imagine liking something would cause me to like something else in a similar vein to it less automatically.


----------



## CM Buck (Sep 2, 2012)

Lheurch said:


> What a strange black or white world you live in. I would think most people might want to watch similar products to ones they already like. WWF vs WCW certainly backs that up, most watched both and I have shown how the top boxing, wrestling, and MMA PPVs have all existed simultaneously in the same time period, with likely a large overlap. I mean, if that is how you are fair enough, but I cannot imagine liking something would cause me to like something else in a similar vein to it less automatically.


I'm the same as him. I don't watch boxing or mma cause rounds are involved. I am the same with TV shows and books. It's a completionist thing for me. I need to see something in its entirety to enjoy it. 

With wrestling the fight doesn't stop until the ref counts 3 or someone submits or is too fucked up to continue. Strategies are changed on the fly. No silly water breaks. And if those spots are implemented it's either quick or a max of 10 seconds


----------



## One Shed (Jan 7, 2014)

Firefromthegods said:


> I'm the same as him. I don't watch boxing or mma cause rounds are involved. I am the same with TV shows and books. It's a completionist thing for me. I need to see something in its entirety to enjoy it.
> 
> With wrestling the fight doesn't stop until the ref counts 3 or someone submits or is too fucked up to continue. Strategies are changed on the fly. No silly water breaks. And if those spots are implemented it's either quick or a max of 10 seconds


So you could not watch a sci-fi show simultaneously as a science show because they follow different rules/laws? Trying to understand the thinking.


----------



## $Dolladrew$ (Jun 15, 2020)

Lheurch said:


> What a strange black or white world you live in. I would think most people might want to watch similar products to ones they already like. WWF vs WCW certainly backs that up, most watched both and I have shown how the top boxing, wrestling, and MMA PPVs have all existed simultaneously in the same time period, with likely a large overlap. I mean, if that is how you are fair enough, but I cannot imagine liking something would cause me to like something else in a similar vein to it less automatically.



When I watched mma it was all in I didnt watch boxing either(using only 2 limbs to fight isn't as exciting after watching mma)or pro wrestling they literally had no appeal to me.

95% of mma fans think pro wrestling is really dumb there isn't a big crossover audience I can personally attest to this.

AEW is still the only wrestling I can watch a full episode of thank god for them or I'd never be here.


----------



## One Shed (Jan 7, 2014)

$Dolladrew$ said:


> When I watched mma it was all in I didnt watch boxing either(using only 2 limbs to fight isn't as exciting after watching mma)or pro wrestling they literally had no appeal to me.
> 
> 95% of mma fans think pro wrestling is really dumb there isn't a big crossover audience I can personally attest to this.
> 
> AEW is still the only wrestling I can watch a full episode of thank god for them or I'd never be here.


There was a large crossover before WWE got back into silly mode. There can be again. I am just tired of hearing from the "no chance, do not even bother trying" crowd.


----------



## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

Firefromthegods said:


> Wrestling is NOT a performance art. It's simulated combat. What chip and wood don't understand is there's room for stupid fun. OC is stupid fun. Like watching the godfather and his hos, rikishi giving the stink face etc.
> 
> Hell the undertaker and Kane are fucking retarded gimmicks and everyone loves them. Ooooo I'm a deadman who plays with souls. Oooooo I'm a dude who can control fire.


They aren't good examples though.

Godfather came to the ring as a pimp with hos following him. How is that unrealistic at all? Wasn't that his shoot job before wrestling anyway? It's totally believable that a wrestler pimps women on the side.

Rikishi giving the stink face also made sense. He was doing it as a humiliation thing and it was sold like that by literally every wrestler and commentator. If he was in AEW he'd be winning matches via the stink face.


----------



## CM Buck (Sep 2, 2012)

Lheurch said:


> So you could not watch a sci-fi show simultaneously as a science show because they follow different rules/laws? Trying to understand the thinking.


So for example quantum leap vs star trek? I can't watch star trek due to being campy but I enjoy the time travel and premise of quantum leap. Same with sliders vs something like fuck um Battlestar Galactica. I loved the parallel universe theories but hated the spaceship shit of BG.

Back to wrestling. I hate Kane and the undertakers stupid supernatural bullshit gimmick because it's stupid. I conversely love orange Cassidy because the gimmick is stupid.

Look at the shit we have to deal with in the real world. Bipartisan politics, racism, a pandemic etc. OC allows me to switch off my brain and smile at someone who just wants to bring a smile to someone's face.

Should this version of OC be a world champion? No. Absolutely not. But he damn sure deserves TV time for the same reason Santino does. For giving the fan base something that makes them laugh.

Godfather was stupid but I loved him. Rikishi being a fat ass was stupid but I loved him. Jim Duggan was stupid but people loved him. And those characters never won world titles. So if people can accept them there's no reason to say OC has no place in wrestling.

@Chip Chipperson Orange Cassidy has never won with his slow kicks so what are you on about? My reasoning is its okay to have something to laugh at. It's okay to have stupid fun every now and again.

The world's a miserable place. Cassidy is a distraction from its shittyness. Until his winning world titles I'm not gonna complain.


----------



## One Shed (Jan 7, 2014)

Firefromthegods said:


> So for example quantum leap vs star trek? I can't watch star trek due to being campy but I enjoy the time travel and premise of quantum leap. Same with sliders vs something like fuck um Battlestar Galactica. I loved the parallel universe theories but hated the spaceship shit of BG.
> 
> Back to wrestling. I hate Kane and the undertakers stupid supernatural bullshit gimmick because it's stupid. I conversely love orange Cassidy because the gimmick is stupid.
> 
> ...


Of the four you mentioned, which one(s) of those are science shows? All four are sci-fi to me and I watched all "four." I put four in quotations because there have been many iterations of Star Trek and most are not "camp" as well as two very different versions of BSG.

You...hate stupid as defined by you because it is stupid but you also love stupid as defined by you because it is stupid? Ok...? What? What point are you trying to make here?

I am all for brain switching off. I do it for every TV show and movie I watch. But I will not deal with products that promise one thing yet deliver another. That is why I time, after time, make the universe rules argument. You can set whatever rules you want, but you have to obey them. Hawkeye does not get to knockout Thanos. Sam Beckett does not get to levitate in the air and shoot lasers from his eyes. Quinn Mallory may find a path to cross Einstein-Rosen bridges, but he does not get to deflect bullets. You set your rules, you live by them. Wrestling has rules, and Tony Khan wanted a sports-based presentation.

OC blows and Santino blows. Godfather was 6'6 and if having the ability to walk to the ring with 4-20 gorgeous women is stupid then I do not want to be smart. It is not like he teleported them in with his mind. How is that stupid or unbelievable? Rikishi was a legit Samoan dude and yes, the stinkface was dumb and I hated it. But if there was a fight with him vs some geek like OC, what happens? Jim Duggan was a product from the 80's when everyone was a cartoon. He also was someone who could kick your ass in real life. You still had an actual adult standing behind the cartoon. Literally the same thing with Slaughter too.

And if you are going to compare the old days and people winning world titles where Roddy Piper, Ted DiBiase, and Jim Duggan never did but today where even someone I would never even see when looking straight ahead like Austin Aries would, you have to be kidding me.

I have said many times, I can see OC as a beginner and possible decent worker, he just needs some basic wrestling training on psychology and selling. He is far from the worst. But does he belong in a competitive match with the top name on your brand? Not only no, but hell no. You bring the entire product down when things like this happen.



Firefromthegods said:


> @Chip Chipperson Orange Cassidy has never won with his slow kicks so what are you on about? My reasoning is its okay to have something to laugh at. It's okay to have stupid fun every now and again.
> 
> The world's a miserable place. Cassidy is a distraction from its shittyness. Until his winning world titles I'm not gonna complain.


You edited your post, let me further respond.

It is never "OK' to be stupid. If you come up to me and slap me on the ass, you would never "beat me" by doing that but I would sure look like an idiot if I just stood there and let you do it, no? Why excuse the stupid?

Cassidy is a REMINDER of its shittyness. I run into idiots every day that do stupid things but if I knock their head off, I am the asshole right? In the realm of pro wrestling, you can punch and kick everyone without fear of law enforcement. Anyone taking his playkicks is nothing short of dumb.

I have made 4-5 planting flag posts these past few weeks of people saying things like "you idiots are acting like he is in the main event" (he is Wednesday) and now "he is not winning the world title." That is going to be the next argument from the excusers on here. Not only should he be in title matches, he should be the champ because "he sells some merch" and they will ignore the original posts anyway. The ratings are bad just because all the young people never are recorded. "Memes not fists" will be his shirt.


----------



## CM Buck (Sep 2, 2012)

Lheurch said:


> Of the four you mentioned, which one(s) of those are science shows? All four are sci-fi to me and I watched all "four." I put four in quotations because there have been many iterations of Star Trek and most are not "camp" as well as two very different versions of BSG.
> 
> You...hate stupid as defined by you because it is stupid but you also love stupid as defined by you because it is stupid? Ok...? What? What point are you trying to make here?
> 
> ...


I guess quantum leap/sliders cause science is involved. I love time travel/parallel earth theory so I'm biased.

Why am I defending OC while being an open hater of matts broken bullshit and someone who hated chikara with a passion? Because OC is right on my limit for stupidity. 

If OC ever wins with his shin kicks he will immediately become someone I despise. But right now, he only uses the shin kicks to piss people off. And same with the pockets. It's designed to troll his enemy.

Don't get me wrong. I loved Santino as a comedy guy but I DESPISE the cobra. 

I'm not advocating for oc to be champion unless he bulks up and evolves. I'm advocating him being a popular midcarder. 

I'm not understanding why you and chip and wood don't even want him to be in the hurricane or Santino role. I understand why you don't find him funny. You guys hate slapstick and being a smartass I get that.


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

If UFC took wrestling's casuals, you'd think they'd be doing something like 6 million people a show. They're not.


----------



## One Shed (Jan 7, 2014)

Firefromthegods said:


> I guess quantum leap/sliders cause science is involved. I love time travel/parallel earth theory so I'm biased.
> 
> Why am I defending OC while being an open hater of matts broken bullshit and someone who hated chikara with a passion? Because OC is right on my limit for stupidity.
> 
> ...


OK, but "science involved" does not equal science in the documentary sense. Sure, wormholes and parallel dimensions are predicted and possible by mainstream theories but that does not make them more scientific than futuristic (or past!) shows like Star Trek or BSG respectively. I am happy to take this conversation into a different topic on a different forum. Might be fun.

He is doing the same exact shin kicks every time. Not a random amount in different areas, the same amount in the same order. No one who would stand there and take it can be credible. No one would stand there and allow him to start and finish putting his hands in his pockets. If he had two badasses who held a guy and made them watch him do this routine then sure, he would be a decent heel. But the laws of physics would compel someone to punch him when his hands were long before entering his pockets.

He does not belong anywhere near Jericho or any midcarder you want to elevate. I love intelligent humor. I hate stupid, turn your brain off in order for this to work drooling stuff that is OC.


----------



## CM Buck (Sep 2, 2012)

Lheurch said:


> OK, but "science involved" does not equal science in the documentary sense. Sure, wormholes and parallel dimensions are predicted and possible by mainstream theories but that does not make them more scientific than futuristic (or past!) shows like Star Trek or BSG respectively. I am happy to take this conversation into a different topic on a different forum. Might be fun.
> 
> He is doing the same exact shin kicks every time. Not a random amount in different areas, the same amount in the same order. No one who would stand there and take it can be credible. No one would stand there and allow him to start and finish putting his hands in his pockets. If he had two badasses who held a guy and made them watch him do this routine then sure, he would be a decent heel. But the laws of physics would compel someone to punch him when his hands were long before entering his pockets.
> 
> He does not belong anywhere near Jericho or any midcarder you want to elevate. I love intelligent humor. I hate stupid, turn your brain off in order for this to work drooling stuff that is OC.


Jericho is a wrestling slut. I mean he put over job that guy for goodness sake. Working with OC can't damage someone who willingly lays down for anyone.

So far OC hasn't had any statement making victories. I don't see that happening until AEW has an established midcard. I do see him regularly beating the no hopers like chucky and colt though.

So far he hasn't beaten anyone he shouldn't. It's just nightmare factory people


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

Orange Cassidy shouldn’t be wrestling period. Haha, how do people not get that point? Now they’ve exposed him in the main event scene, he’s going to be toxic to the entire show, whereas fans used to patiently skip past him before.


----------



## One Shed (Jan 7, 2014)

Firefromthegods said:


> Jericho is a wrestling slut. I mean he put over job that guy for goodness sake. Working with OC can't damage someone who willingly lays down for anyone.
> 
> So far OC hasn't had any statement making victories. I don't see that happening until AEW has an established midcard. I do see him regularly beating the no hopers like chucky and colt though.
> 
> So far he hasn't beaten anyone he shouldn't. It's just nightmare factory people


Whoa, so the first Indisputable World Champ means nothing? He put over "job that guy?" Who? Has Jericho layed down for "anyone?" worth nothing now? How deeply are you wanting to bury him now?

Right, OC sucks, has beaten no one, but somehow is a threat for Jericho? We skipped about five steps there.


----------



## Chairshot620 (Mar 12, 2010)

Do OC segments have high ratings? If not, I don’t understand why they keep booking this guy. His entire gimmick is an insult to Pro Wrestling. Maybe if he just wants to stare at people to distract them ok, but the slow motion sloth like stuff has got to go. Same way with Marko, just keep him at ringside as a cornerman/distraction. Neither of theses guys should be touching in ring competitors unless they are a distraction for their team or get the holy hell slapped out of them.

The product really suffers the way these two are used. I have to think at this point that one of the elite must totally get off on their haha shit and either doesn’t care or can’t see through their bias how much better the show would be without this endless comedy overload. 

Between AEW, Impact, MLW, NWA, and ROH, I feel that MLW is the most consistently, solidly good show, and they are showing steady growth. They are the sleeper promotion that may very well be a giant in a few years.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

Chairshot620 said:


> Do OC segments have high ratings? If not, I don’t understand why they keep booking this guy. His entire gimmick is an insult to Pro Wrestling. Maybe if he just wants to stare at people to distract them ok, but the slow motion sloth like stuff has got to go. Same way with Marko, just keep him at ringside as a cornerman/distraction. Neither of theses guys should be touching in ring competitors unless they are a distraction for their team or get the holy hell slapped out of them.
> 
> The product really suffers the way these two are used. I have to think at this point that one of the elite must totally get off on their haha shit and either doesn’t care or can’t see through their bias how much better the show would be without this endless comedy overload.
> 
> ...


No, they don’t. People will point to “spikes,” but it’s the fans sticking around being patient while people flick over to mock the wrestling and make remarks like “I can’t believe I used to watch this shit.”

When emphasised, his segments have crashed.


----------



## Hephaesteus (Aug 20, 2018)

If you want comedy fine give us comedy, but keep him away from your main event players. There is no way that cassidy should be in a feud with the pacs and jerichos of this organization. That lowers their profile doesnt raise his profile.


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

When it comes to these silly gimmicks in the WWE (and yes, it's a WWE trope, although theirs aren't nearly as bad as Orange Cassidy), they're accepted by those fans at a certain level. Then, at some point, because they "get over," they get pushed beyond their station, are overexposed, and they're done. OC is done, and the more they try with him at any level now, the more stank it is going to spread.

Think of it this way too: 

* If he goes back to the mid-card, it will always be a "failed push." People mock WWE all the time for trying with guys and then giving up and them languishing around forever. It will be a different tone, but he'll join Brian Cage, Lance Archer and Brodie Lee. It will set the tone and people will lose faith in the promotion to push people. Everyone will always remember "that time Orange Cassidy was in the main event." 

* If he sticks around in the main event, it will fucking tank. 

They're doomed no matter what they do because they have no clue what they are doing in the first place.


----------



## CM Buck (Sep 2, 2012)

Lheurch said:


> Whoa, so the first Indisputable World Champ means nothing? He put over "job that guy?" Who? Has Jericho layed down for "anyone?" worth nothing now? How deeply are you wanting to bury him now?
> 
> Right, OC sucks, has beaten no one, but somehow is a threat for Jericho? We skipped about five steps there.


JTG from crime time. On smackdown. Yes he was tag champion at the time but he still lost to that guy. He also jobbed clean to heath slater. That alone has harmed his credibility in my eyes. JTG in 2020 is only relevant now due to a tragedy and we all saw what happened to heath.

Jericho doesn't give a shit so why should I care that he lost a fight to a comedy dude? Yeah he beat the rock and Austin in one night 19 years ago buuuuuuut he also got beaten by fandango.

I already saw the spoilers anyway.

Edit by lost a fight I mean the brawl where he got put through a table


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

So losing to JTG and Heath Slater hurt his credibility, but losing to Orange Cassidy, who is less imposing and less talented than either one of those dudes, is somehow fine? Can you not see how it's _even worse_?


----------



## CM Buck (Sep 2, 2012)

The Wood said:


> So losing to JTG and Heath Slater hurt his credibility, but losing to Orange Cassidy, who is less imposing and less talented than either one of those dudes, is somehow fine? Can you not see how it's _even worse_?


OC shouldn't beat jericho. But I don't give a fuck if jericho wants to interact with the guy. If he beats jericho then I'll be calling for his head


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

Firefromthegods said:


> OC shouldn't beat jericho. But I don't give a fuck if jericho wants to interact with the guy. If he beats jericho then I'll be calling for his head


Fair enough, but quite a few thousand apparently do.


----------



## JerryMark (May 7, 2016)

he has a one dimensional gimmick that's never gonna be mainstream.


----------



## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

Lheurch said:


> You edited your post, let me further respond.
> 
> It is never "OK' to be stupid. If you come up to me and slap me on the ass, you would never "beat me" by doing that but I would sure look like an idiot if I just stood there and let you do it, no? Why excuse the stupid?
> 
> ...


Really good points here.

If I'm standing face to face with a guy and we hate one another and he tried to slowly and weakly kick me in the shins he would land one before I'd deck him. I'm not a tough guy but lets pretend in this situation I am I would most likely absolutely floor the guy and kick the shit out of him before he could even retaliate. For guys to repeatedly stand there and allow it to happen is indeed dumb.

Also, when OC's rating tanks this week people already have started finding excuses. The response will no doubt be "Orange isn't a big problem, the spoilers leaked so of course ratings were going to be down". That will be the excuse even if the rating drops down to 500,000 flat and NXT has 900,000 watching their main event.



Hephaesteus said:


> If you want comedy fine give us comedy, but keep him away from your main event players. There is no way that cassidy should be in a feud with the pacs and jerichos of this organization. That lowers their profile doesnt raise his profile.


It would be like The Blue Meanie during his brief WWF stint wrestling Stone Cold on PPV.


----------



## CM Buck (Sep 2, 2012)

Chip Chipperson said:


> Really good points here.
> 
> If I'm standing face to face with a guy and we hate one another and he tried to slowly and weakly kick me in the shins he would land one before I'd deck him. I'm not a tough guy but lets pretend in this situation I am I would most likely absolutely floor the guy and kick the shit out of him before he could even retaliate. For guys to repeatedly stand there and allow it to happen is indeed dumb.
> 
> ...


Jericho is as big of a star as stone cold? You couldn't have picked someone on Jerichos level like Kurt angle?

If Jericho was a stone cold level star aew would be crushing WWE lol


----------



## Hephaesteus (Aug 20, 2018)

Firefromthegods said:


> Jericho is as big of a star as stone cold? You couldn't have picked someone on Jerichos level like Kurt angle?
> 
> If Jericho was a stone cold level star aew would be crushing WWE lol


Jericho is to aew what stone cold was to the wwe. He's the biggest star in the company by far. Obvs they're not on the same level popularity wise but the analogy works.


----------



## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

Firefromthegods said:


> Jericho is as big of a star as stone cold? You couldn't have picked someone on Jerichos level like Kurt angle?
> 
> If Jericho was a stone cold level star aew would be crushing WWE lol


In AEW's world he is. Overall of course not.


----------



## CM Buck (Sep 2, 2012)

Chip Chipperson said:


> In AEW's world he is. Overall of course not.


No that would be Cody. Cody in aew world is still more popular due to Cody creating aew with the elite. For Jericho to even be in a hypothetical stone cold analogy he would currently have to be in peak popularity and in his prime.

In aew land Jericho is ric flair at best. 

If we were to use a wwf example not counting hurricane vs rock of course.Jericho facing orange Cassidy on a b list ppv is like stone cold wrestling the blue blazer at backlash.


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

The Hurricane got too silly at points (the Chokeslam). But he was still a reasonably built guy that could properly work. He worked best when he was not actually a superhero, but a wrestler who dressed like a superhero as his gimmick. There’s a big difference between the two.


----------



## CM Buck (Sep 2, 2012)

So its a big muscles thing? If Cassidy was jacked you wouldn't get upset about his comedy?


----------



## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

Firefromthegods said:


> So its a big muscles thing? If Cassidy was jacked you wouldn't get upset about his comedy?


I still would but it's a bit easier to believe him going back and forth in a brawl with a decent sized guy like Jericho if he's jacked.

If he was jacked and doing the kicks to the shin though it'd still be stupid.


----------



## CM Buck (Sep 2, 2012)

Chip Chipperson said:


> I still would but it's a bit easier to believe him going back and forth in a brawl with a decent sized guy like Jericho if he's jacked.
> 
> If he was jacked and doing the kicks to the shin though it'd still be stupid.


Good thing his only brawled with old man jericho huh. Even against pac he didn't go fist for fist with him. And pac fucked him up for his shin kicks and made him be serious.

Almost like the shin kicks are meant to be a taunt and not taken seriously?


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

Firefromthegods said:


> So its a big muscles thing? If Cassidy was jacked you wouldn't get upset about his comedy?


No. No one said that. But Cassidy is the exact same build as David Arquette. Should David Arquette brawl with Chris Jericho and put him through a table?

If he looked half-way legit, carried himself half-way legit, and could half-way work, we would be talking about a completely different guy. But the shin kicks would still bury everything.


----------



## CM Buck (Sep 2, 2012)

The Wood said:


> No. No one said that. But Cassidy is the exact same build as David Arquette. Should David Arquette brawl with Chris Jericho and put him through a table?
> 
> If he looked half-way legit, carried himself half-way legit, and could half-way work, we would be talking about a completely different guy. But the shin kicks would still bury everything.


Present day David Arquette wrestles hardcore matches as a special attraction. So id actually be down for that cause Arquette kills himself.

Cassidy can halfway work. Unless cult is trolling OC fans his even admitted OC is no slouch and he hates the comedy shit aew does.

Cassidy is a perfectly competent technical/high flyer wrestler. He just doesn't work a style you enjoy. His size is absolutely fine for the style he works. The only thing he needs to clean up is his strikes that isn't the superman punch.

Don't confuse subjectivity with objectivity.


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

You just admitted he can’t throw strikes. That’s a lack of competency.


----------



## Hitman1987 (May 25, 2020)

Chip Chipperson said:


> I know it's the two greatest of all time but compare the following brawl between Austin and Rock before their PPV match in 2001 to Jericho and Cassidy. Keep in mind these comparisons to Austin and Rock aren't too farfetched because Jericho is just one or two steps below those guys whilst Orange Cassidy is being called the next Rock by many of you.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This segment takes me back.

The reason this segment works so well is because you have 2 compelling characters, who are in good physical condition, who want to hurt each other and actually look like they can do it. No choreographed flippy stuff or unnecessary smoke and mirrors, just 2 grown men covered in beer beating hell out of each other and the commentators going crazy. Wrestlers don’t have to look like Brian cage to be taken seriously but they have to Be believable and at least look like they’ve seen the inside of a gym before.

You could re-do this segment and replace stone cold and the rock with omega and page it and would work just as well because they have character, a story and look the part.

The problem comes when you swap out stone cold and the rock and replace them with an old Jericho with a beer belly and orange Cassidy who looks like his wrist would snap if he threw a proper superman punch. 

At the end of the day a wrestling match is a fight and you either have to use your strength and size to succeed or your technical skills (like Daniel Bryan/Chris Benoit), if you are like orange Cassidy and you have neither then it’s difficult for fans to suspend thier belief to the point where they think he is actually a threat.

I think he has a place on the show and his gimmick is entertaining but it needs to be little and often And kept away from the main event/serious part of the show.


----------



## CM Buck (Sep 2, 2012)

The Wood said:


> You just admitted he can’t throw strikes. That’s a lack of competency.


No. Going by your logic. Rey mysterio is an incompetent wrestler because his punches suck. Or ric flair is incompetent because his punches don't measure up to austins. 

Some wrestlers aren't good brawlers. Hence why we have different wrestling styles.


----------



## Blaze2k2 (Dec 3, 2019)

Firefromthegods said:


> No. Going by your logic. Rey mysterio is an incompetent wrestler because his punches suck. Or ric flair is incompetent because his punches don't measure up to austins.
> 
> Some wrestlers aren't good brawlers. Hence why we have different wrestling styles.


Bingo. People get caught up in the whole "he can't throw a punch" nonsense. Yeah but he can do a lot of other things (moves) well and that's what he works with. it's like they ignore all the good stuff he can do just because he can't throw a punch. Who cares?


----------



## One Shed (Jan 7, 2014)

Firefromthegods said:


> No that would be Cody. Cody in aew world is still more popular due to Cody creating aew with the elite. For Jericho to even be in a hypothetical stone cold analogy he would currently have to be in peak popularity and in his prime.
> 
> In aew land Jericho is ric flair at best.
> 
> If we were to use a wwf example not counting hurricane vs rock of course.Jericho facing orange Cassidy on a b list ppv is like stone cold wrestling the blue blazer at backlash.


No, Cody is only the biggest star in his own mind. As presented on TV, their biggest star is by far Jericho.


----------



## One Shed (Jan 7, 2014)

Firefromthegods said:


> JTG from crime time. On smackdown. Yes he was tag champion at the time but he still lost to that guy. He also jobbed clean to heath slater. That alone has harmed his credibility in my eyes. JTG in 2020 is only relevant now due to a tragedy and we all saw what happened to heath.
> 
> Jericho doesn't give a shit so why should I care that he lost a fight to a comedy dude? Yeah he beat the rock and Austin in one night 19 years ago buuuuuuut he also got beaten by fandango.
> 
> ...


Wrestling is an interesting thing. In kayfabe, when Jericho was world champ, of course JTG and Heath Slater were not going to beat him. When someone who was world champ has a midcard run, you do the work to establish that. The guy can be older, run down, not working out as much, in a rut. This can be done. Flair did it better than anyone. BUT you need to have a healthy main event card in place to drop a top guy down to make other guys. When Flair dropped down, you had Hogan, Luger, Sting, Giant, and others there to fill that gap.

In AEW, he is your biggest star. Mox beat him, but Mox has been largely absent and you do not have other established stars taking up the slack that allow him to drop down and make other people. Flair got beat by plenty of red shirts, but not in times when he was the world champ or close to it. If AEW had a healthy level of main eventers, Jericho could do what he did several times in WWE but as a fledgling company that desperately needs main eventers, he should know better than to fight a goof.

Please keep the spoiler talk off of here also.


----------



## One Shed (Jan 7, 2014)

Firefromthegods said:


> No. Going by your logic. Rey mysterio is an incompetent wrestler because his punches suck. Or ric flair is incompetent because his punches don't measure up to austins.
> 
> Some wrestlers aren't good brawlers. Hence why we have different wrestling styles.


Rey Mysterio is a short dude who makes up for it by being a once in a generation athlete and is built for a small guy. Ric Flair is the best talker ever. What is OC even decent at? He is a small, skinny dude who is too lazy to throw a punch and has never spoken. Some wrestlers are not good brawlers and some people are not good wrestlers. Short, skinny generic dude #24879 is not bringing anything decent to the table.


----------



## elidrakefan76 (Jul 23, 2018)

Lheurch said:


> Rey Mysterio is a short dude who makes up for it by being a once in a generation athlete and is built for a small guy. Ric Flair is the best talker ever. What is OC even decent at? He is a small, skinny dude who is too lazy to throw a punch and has never spoken. Some wrestlers are not good brawlers and some people are not good wrestlers. Short, skinny generic dude #24879 is not bringing anything decent to the table.


I dislike Cassidy mainly because his gimmick makes a mockery of wrestling and he embarrasses the AEW product.


----------



## Blade Runner (Jan 24, 2012)

Blaze2k2 said:


> Bingo. People get caught up in the whole "he can't throw a punch" nonsense. Yeah but he can do a lot of other things (moves) well and that's what he works with. it's like they ignore all the good stuff he can do just because he can't throw a punch. Who cares?


I care.

Why would I emotionally invest in someone hitting Jericho like a girl, and Jericho selling it like he got hit by a Freight train?

It reminds me of selling for my 5-year old son when he hits me with his foam sword. It's cute with kids, but looks weird af when it's performed by people supposed to be professionals at acting out a (fairly) believable fight. OC skipping wrestling school to go flip on his trampoline in the backyard isn't a good tradeoff


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

Firefromthegods said:


> No. Going by your logic. Rey mysterio is an incompetent wrestler because his punches suck. Or ric flair is incompetent because his punches don't measure up to austins.
> 
> Some wrestlers aren't good brawlers. Hence why we have different wrestling styles.


Nah, Rey is phenomenal. His punches may or may not be the best, but he’s a different style of wrestler, like you said. “Shit“ isn’t a style.

Orange Cassidy is a brawler. That’s how they’re presented him. That’s why he had a brawl with Jericho. It’s why he’s doing double-legs, mounted punches and Superman punches through tables. Your “some guys aren’t brawlers” point would work a lot better if OC wasn’t being presented and pushed that way.

By the way, Rey can work believably with Brock Lesnar. That’s how good Rey is. OC can’t work believably with Jericho. 



Blaze2k2 said:


> Bingo. People get caught up in the whole "he can't throw a punch" nonsense. Yeah but he can do a lot of other things (moves) well and that's what he works with. it's like they ignore all the good stuff he can do just because he can't throw a punch. Who cares?


You have people in the online community, right here, telling you that they care. He certainly does “work with” his brawling. It’s why we’re having this discussion.

I don’t know where this “he does other moves well” idea comes from. He doesn’t. What does he do well? His shit looks phoney and soft all the time. He puts his hands in his pockets and dives through the ropes. Okay? A referee could do that.

Also, it’s not on people to ignore the bad stuff for the good. They don’t owe that to this turd. Don’t shove the bad shit under people’s noses and then expect them to have an appetite.


----------



## $Dolladrew$ (Jun 15, 2020)

Lheurch said:


> There was a large crossover before WWE got back into silly mode. There can be again. I am just tired of hearing from the "no chance, do not even bother trying" crowd.


There was never a huge crossover audience maybe WWE ppl watching mma but not vice versa.Ive been in the mma industry for over 15 years and on forums for mma just as long.There was a small percentage of ppl watching wrestling but it's like 5-7% after watching real fighting play wrasslin isn't watchable unless you were already a fan before. 

Unless you feature mma fighters in wrestling mma audience dont care and even with a guy like Cain Velasquez no one cared he was fake wrestling even after being ufc hw champ.


----------



## Hephaesteus (Aug 20, 2018)

I'd give Orange credit for this, hell of a gimmick that works for someone like him, gonna need a second act really soon though. But honestly if AEW wants to be bigger than they are, they're going to have to have a huger separation between it's comedy relief and it's main eventers.
Also, this comparison to the rock hurricane feud is crazy in that all that particular feud was used to do was build up rock Austin. At no point did I feel that the Hurricane was on Rock's level.


----------



## CM Buck (Sep 2, 2012)

Lheurch said:


> Rey Mysterio is a short dude who makes up for it by being a once in a generation athlete and is built for a small guy. Ric Flair is the best talker ever. What is OC even decent at? He is a small, skinny dude who is too lazy to throw a punch and has never spoken. Some wrestlers are not good brawlers and some people are not good wrestlers. Short, skinny generic dude #24879 is not bringing anything decent to the table.


No duh on the spoilers 

The thing is he is decent. He doesn't excel at anything yes but who gives a shit? His fine enough to entertain people. He has more value in that department than Luther or stunt.

His no where near the worst on the aew roster. Unless you believe that marko and the third eye doofus are better workers?

Why you and chip and wood are freaking out over this makes no sense. It's not like tv audiences will accept this guy as world champion? In beyond wrestling maybe but not a tv show on tnt

Its like you are afraid his going to be beating mox for the championship if he somehow beats Jericho. His midcard for life

As a fan I know that. He will be feuding with the dark order soon enough


----------



## One Shed (Jan 7, 2014)

Firefromthegods said:


> Its like you are afraid his going to be beating mox for the championship if he somehow beats Jericho. His midcard for life
> 
> As a fan I know that. He will be feuding with the dark order soon enough


Another flag to plant.

Obviously he is not the worst worker in AEW. No one has ever said he was.

We will see if Tony wants to grow his audience or cater to some hardcores.

It is just a shame how far things have fallen quality wise. The argument is basically "He is OK because look at the REAL crap they have on the show!"


----------



## CM Buck (Sep 2, 2012)

Lheurch said:


> Another flag to plant.
> 
> Obviously he is not the worst worker in AEW. No one has ever said he was.
> 
> ...


They go out of business they put anything but the tnt championship on him simple as that. Like I said I have a hard ceiling on him.


----------



## Blaze2k2 (Dec 3, 2019)

The Wood said:


> You have people in the online community, right here, telling you that they care. He certainly does “work with” his brawling. It’s why we’re having this discussion.


He's not a brawler. I've seen enough Orange Cassidy matches to know he's not a brawler. 



> I don’t know where this “he does other moves well” idea comes from.


It comes from actually watching a decent amount of his matches. 



> He doesn’t. What does he do well?


Let's see. Drop kick, Tilt-A-Whirl DDT, Diving DDT, Cross Body, Superman Punch, Stunner (Counter), Tope Suicida, Monkey Flip, Brainbuster, Tilt-A-Whirl backbreaker, Falcon Arrow, Modified camel clutch.



> His shit looks phoney and soft all the time. He puts his hands in his pockets and dives through the ropes. Okay? A referee could do that.


Clearly that's not all he can do but if you want to continue this silly narrative that he can't do anything have at it. We can go back and forth until the cows come home and guess what? Orange Cassidy is here to stay and that's all there is to it. Sorry that bothers you but it is what it is.


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

Firefromthegods said:


> No duh on the spoilers
> 
> The thing is he is decent. He doesn't excel at anything yes but who gives a shit? His fine enough to entertain people. He has more value in that department than Luther or stunt.
> 
> ...


The thing is, he's not decent. I'm not going to have a go at anyone giving you that ground, but I refuse to have it myself, haha. He's fucking shit. He looks shit, he moves shit, his facial expressions are shit, his poise is shit, his presence is shit, his attire is shit, his gimmick is shit, his work is shit and I am willing to bet his promos are shit. It's not all about whether a cunt can kip up with their hands in their pockets. That's not what makes someone decent. He entertains seals that are there to clap at monkeys. 

That he may not even be the absolute _dirt worst_ AEW has to offer is an indictment on them, _not_ an exoneration of him. Being turd stain on the bowl of any description, length or consistency is undesirable. Get rid of all of them.

I don't give a _fuck_ if he is "mid-card for life." I don't want him pissing and spitting all over a wrestling show _at all_. I'm not going to watch a show that for even five minutes has the actors stop acting, turn and face the camera and say "You're a piece of shit, Wood, I don't fucking like you. I don't like acting. I don't like TV. Fuck this. Fuck you. You're stupid. Do something else with your life." Fuck that. It's unprofessional and it's fucking insulting. I don't care if it wasn't the fucking climax of the show. Don't. Fucking. Do it. 

Also, the "mid-card for life" excuse runs the fuck out when he is being pushed to work with your biggest star in the main event of what was supposed to be one of your B/R Live specials. "Yeah, pay for this shit." Fuck you. He's not "mid-card for life" when he is main eventing against main eventers -- and that's not even the fucking point!

Oh well, AEW is going to cop it hard for this shit. Most people expect NXT to wallop them in the ratings this week. There will likely be a show-long decrease in viewership and the final segment will probably lose some viewers. If it doesn't, it'll be the morbid curiosity factor, or pity views, and people will fucking laugh and never watch again. And when AEW loses more and more of its viewership, because the rot has set in, they're going to lose more and more favor with fans, their network, big stars whose contracts come up, and eventually they are going to be at 420k viewers a week, and AEW fans will still be telling me it is still good and that they will be up to 1 million viewers soon. It'll still just be waiting for that big storyline to really set it off, huh? At least it's an alternative to that crappy WWE that still gets to treat employees however the fuck they want, because if they want to be stars it's the only place they can go. 

Fuck that attitude -- that's what has gotten us into this mess and it's going to make one person more successful: Vince McMahon. Congratulations.


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

Blaze2k2 said:


> He's not a brawler. I've seen enough Orange Cassidy matches to know he's not a brawler.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


His whole program with Chris Jericho has been based around him brawling! If he's not a brawler, don't put him in fucking brawls! Better yet -- fire him! 

"Well, actually, I've watched a decent amount of his matches." Good for you. You're either a masochist or your standards are low. Most people aren't going to get that far. It's his job to hook people and he fails hard at that. 

Those are moves, and most of the ones I've seen him do he's actually really shit at. His punch is shitty, his dives are shitty. Doing moves well is not the point. 

If Orange Cassidy is here to stay, AEW's viewers will not be. Sorry if that bothers you, but it is what it is.


----------



## $Dolladrew$ (Jun 15, 2020)

Blaze2k2 said:


> He's not a brawler. I've seen enough Orange Cassidy matches to know he's not a brawler.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


They dont understand talking shit from a stance like its fact isn't going to change someone's opinion lmfao 

WAR OC haters gonna hate wait til fans come back and the crowd goes nut(not cuz of being mutants either what a lame excuse)


----------



## Blaze2k2 (Dec 3, 2019)

KYRA BATARA said:


> I care.
> 
> Why would I emotionally invest in someone hitting Jericho like a girl, and Jericho selling it like he got hit by a Freight train?
> 
> It reminds me of selling for my 5-year old son when he hits me with his foam sword. It's cute with kids, but looks weird af when it's performed by people supposed to be professionals at acting out a (fairly) believable fight. OC skipping wrestling school to go flip on his trampoline in the backyard isn't a good tradeoff


We're in the non kayfabe era. I can let weak brawling go as long as the end result entertains me. The same goes for video game selling, hotspot spamming, teleportation and the rest of it. This is what AEW is. You can either take it or leave it. If you want a serious reality based promotion watch New Japan which is actually my favorite promotion. All of this comes down to expectation. When I watch AEW I'm not watching it for a serious take on wrestling I'm watching it for a fun circus of chaos.


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

Blaze2k2 said:


> We're in the non kayfabe era. I can let weak brawling go as long as the end result entertains me. The same goes for video game selling, hotspot spamming, teleportation and the rest of it. This is what AEW is. You can either take it or leave it. If you want a serious reality based promotion watch New Japan which is actually my favorite promotion. All of this comes down to expectation. When I watch AEW I'm not watching it for a serious take on wrestling I'm watching it for a fun circus of chaos.


*Just because you can doesn't mean others can. That is why viewership is in the dirt.*

If any of you had any evidence that this shit has ever grown an audience anywhere, we'd be having an entirely different conversation. But no one can point to anything other than fans who would be with the product whether it was good or bad saying "I don't mind it."


----------



## CM Buck (Sep 2, 2012)

The Wood said:


> The thing is, he's not decent. I'm not going to have a go at anyone giving you that ground, but I refuse to have it myself, haha. He's fucking shit. He looks shit, he moves shit, his facial expressions are shit, his poise is shit, his presence is shit, his attire is shit, his gimmick is shit, his work is shit and I am willing to bet his promos are shit. It's not all about whether a cunt can kip up with their hands in their pockets. That's not what makes someone decent. He entertains seals that are there to clap at monkeys.
> 
> That he may not even be the absolute _dirt worst_ AEW has to offer is an indictment on them, _not_ an exoneration of him. Being turd stain on the bowl of any description, length or consistency is undesirable. Get rid of all of them.
> 
> ...


Come off it man. The hurricane worked a program with the rock. It ended on raw but beating the rock didnt net the hurricane any world championships. Just cause you work with a main eventer doesn't make you a main eventer.

Slight spoiler cause it doesn't give away the results. His match with jericho is the main event this week. Considering it will be competing with Adam and Keith Lee no shit it will tank.

Ratings are a marathon not a sprint. Cassidy is not main event material I've agreed with you and leurch and chip numerous times on that.

But a 1 off on a FREE PPV doesn't fucking matter. Its the same as hurricane vs the rock. It will not amount to a god damn thing.


----------



## Blaze2k2 (Dec 3, 2019)

The Wood said:


> His whole program with Chris Jericho has been based around him brawling! If he's not a brawler, don't put him in fucking brawls! Better yet -- fire him!


Lol, make sure you tell Tony Khan that.



> "Well, actually, I've watched a decent amount of his matches." Good for you. You're either a masochist or your standards are low.


No I just know what entertains me and what doesn't. I'm entertained by watching New Japan too. I guess my standards are low for that as well.



> Most people aren't going to get that far. It's his job to hook people and he fails hard at that.


Lol, if you say so.



> Those are moves, and most of the ones I've seen him do he's actually really shit at. His punch is shitty, his dives are shitty. Doing moves well is not the point.


It's exactly the point. 



> If Orange Cassidy is here to stay, AEW's viewers will not be. Sorry if that bothers you, but it is what it is.


Trust me am not gonna lose any sleep over what some random dude in a wrestling forum thinks of what AEW's viewership will be if Orange Cassidy stays. But by all means continue to beat that dead horse.


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

Firefromthegods said:


> Come off it man. The hurricane worked a program with the rock. It ended on raw but beating the rock didnt net the hurricane any world championships. Just cause you work with a main eventer doesn't make you a main eventer.
> 
> Slight spoiler cause it doesn't give away the results. His match with jericho is the main event this week. Considering it will be competing with Adam and Keith Lee no shit it will tank.
> 
> ...


It's already been explained how The Hurricane and The Rock is not the same thing. Firstly, Orange Cassidy has been in the main event segments for weeks. He's also properly feuding with a main eventer, not just sharing a segment or two. Stop trying to lean on massive generalisations. If it's obvious that it's going to tank, then _why the fuck are they doing it?_ Good lord, this is so stupid, haha. 

Yes, ratings are a marathon and not a sprint. That is what I've been saying as AEW fans dance around for weeks because the hardcores are willing them over, only to now turn around because they've gotten too cocky with the comedy shit. Triple H was right when he said it, and it looks like he is being vindicated in his strategy of not going too far with shit and letting AEW self-destruct. 

It's not a PPV if it's free. And yes, it does matter. It all matters. Why do defenders of this shit eventually always go back to "wrestling is bad, it's supposed to be bad" or "pfft, who even cares, it's not like being bad matters?" 

And can't they emulate something better than a poor and tone-deaf imitation of Rock and Hurricane? Why would you even pick that? Fucking hell, this is so ridiculous. Words cannot express how stupid this company seems at times.


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

Blaze2k2 said:


> Lol, make sure you tell Tony Khan that.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Tony Khan doesn't listen to former VPs of Talent Relations for the biggest wrestling promotion in the world that he's paying millions of dollars to. Why would he listen to anyone else? 

Your New Japan point is irrelevant. Are you trying to use that as some sort of hipster defence of your taste? Haha, that's kind of what I'm accusing you of. 

And no, ratings say so. Losing to NXT by 300k viewers says so. Data says so. 

No, it's not the point. This is why wrestling is in a hole.

You're beating the dead horse too. We're discussing in a discussion forum. And if you gave a shit about the future of AEW, you would care what their viewership is. It could affect their accessibility, their access to talent and the entire wrestling industry. But cool, you do you.


----------



## CM Buck (Sep 2, 2012)

The Wood said:


> It's already been explained how The Hurricane and The Rock is not the same thing. Firstly, Orange Cassidy has been in the main event segments for weeks. He's also properly feuding with a main eventer, not just sharing a segment or two. Stop trying to lean on massive generalisations. If it's obvious that it's going to tank, then _why the fuck are they doing it?_ Good lord, this is so stupid, haha.
> 
> Yes, ratings are a marathon and not a sprint. That is what I've been saying as AEW fans dance around for weeks because the hardcores are willing them over, only to now turn around because they've gotten too cocky with the comedy shit. Triple H was right when he said it, and it looks like he is being vindicated in his strategy of not going too far with shit and letting AEW self-destruct.
> 
> ...


I'm not saying it's supposed to be bad? I just know from my brain that OC will never be world champion and is the American toru yano. Something to be trotted out for the lols. Has njpw gone out of business? Nope. Has Okada looked weaker for having taken longer than 1 minute to beat toru? Nope 

Its just a tv show to me. Cassidy is krillin. His green arrow. His hawkeye. His icarus. Against the titans his doomed to die. They may get a lucky hit in and knock the bad guy down. But eventually they fall.

Just to hammer my point home. OC can wrestle whoever the fuck he wants. Doesn't mean I'll be happy if he beats everyone.

Here's the list of people it's acceptable for him to beat.

1. Stunt
2. Luther
3. The majority of the new dark people. Except for a certain few i like more.
4. Avalon cutler nakazowa
5. The gun club
6. Joey division 
7. The death squad 
8. Chuck Taylor 
9. SCU except for Scorpio 
10. Everyone in the dark order except for Lee and Vance
11. The nightmare family 
12. Blade but not butcher 
13. Private party 
14. Ortiz because his trash by himself.
15. Matt Hardy
16. The young bucks individually 

I won't be happy if he beats anyone else so that includes jericho.


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

Firefromthegods said:


> I'm not saying it's supposed to be bad? I just know from my brain that OC will never be world champion and is the American toru yano. Something to be trotted out for the lols. Has njpw gone out of business? Nope. Has Okada looked weaker for having taken longer than 1 minute to beat toru? Nope
> 
> Its just a tv show to me. Cassidy is krillin. His green arrow. His hawkeye. His icarus. Against the titans his doomed to die. They may get a lucky hit in and knock the bad guy down. But eventually they fall.
> 
> ...


People always used that excuse. I'm not saying you specifically used it there. You used the other one: It doesn't matter if there's bad stuff on the shows, people will just ignore it and keep watching. No, they don't have to.

Even Toru Yano is more credible than Orange Cassidy. He's 6'1, 242lbs. He has a background in Greco-Roman wrestling and even dabbled in MMA. He was a serious wrestler who, yes, cheats his ass off and is a bit of a clown now -- but he doesn't exactly put his hands in his pockets and transfer unrealistic amounts of kinetic energy to main event opponents now, does he? 

Every single comparison people use to justify OC falls short, haha. If you want a spoiler, get a proper spoiler.


----------



## CM Buck (Sep 2, 2012)

The Wood said:


> People always used that excuse. I'm not saying you specifically used it there. You used the other one: It doesn't matter if there's bad stuff on the shows, people will just ignore it and keep watching. No, they don't have to.
> 
> Even Toru Yano is more credible than Orange Cassidy. He's 6'1, 242lbs. He has a background in Greco-Roman wrestling and even dabbled in MMA. He was a serious wrestler who, yes, cheats his ass off and is a bit of a clown now -- but he doesn't exactly put his hands in his pockets and transfer unrealistic amounts of kinetic energy to main event opponents now, does he?
> 
> Every single comparison people use to justify OC falls short, haha. If you want a spoiler, get a proper spoiler.


Never said people will keep watching. To use an Australian example. OC is goon. For Americans cheap wine.you hate the taste but as a teenager you drink it to get wasted. Eventually you get over it and go for jack or cider or what have you.

Comedy wrestlers have short shelf lives. Like planking and dabbing eventually everyone will be rolling their eyes and only teens and children will like him


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

Firefromthegods said:


> Never said people will keep watching. To use an Australian example. OC is goon. For Americans cheap wine.you hate the taste but as a teenager you drink it to get wasted. Eventually you get over it and go for jack or cider or what have you.
> 
> Comedy wrestlers have short shelf lives. Like planking and dabbing eventually everyone will be rolling their eyes and only teens and children will like him


Absolutely none of that explains why he is around or why he is promoted.


----------



## CM Buck (Sep 2, 2012)

The Wood said:


> Absolutely none of that explains why he is around or why he is promoted.


Cause his an amalgamation of America? Lazy, think they are too cool for school, only does something if they are forced to, canada and Britain hate him hence why his only feuded with pac and Jericho, doesn't appear to be all that bright, doesn't wear a mask during a pandemic etc

Maybe Tony just wants to mock Americans by using an American instead of a foreign heel and his able to get away with it cause Americans in 2020 have proven they just don't give a fuck?


I don't know why his promoted man.


----------



## One Shed (Jan 7, 2014)

Firefromthegods said:


> Cause his an amalgamation of America? Lazy, think they are too cool for school, only does something if they are forced to, canada and Britain hate him hence why his only feuded with pac and Jericho, doesn't appear to be all that bright, doesn't wear a mask during a pandemic etc
> 
> Maybe Tony just wants to mock Americans by using an American instead of a foreign heel and his able to get away with it cause Americans in 2020 have proven they just don't give a fuck?
> 
> ...


He is way too skinny to be an amalgamation of America.


----------



## Hephaesteus (Aug 20, 2018)

I believe he's promoted cuz its a quick easy pop with a unique enough gimmick that people dig him for now. I get why they're doing this, just feel that their resources are better spent elsewhere.


----------



## DarkMyau (Jun 22, 2020)

I would call the police or at least have a long talk with Mr Cassidy. No one has the right to be in your personal space without your consent.


----------



## Blade Runner (Jan 24, 2012)

Blaze2k2 said:


> We're in the non kayfabe era. I can let weak brawling go as long as the end result entertains me. The same goes for video game selling, hotspot spamming, teleportation and the rest of it. This is what AEW is. You can either take it or leave it. If you want a serious reality based promotion watch New Japan which is actually my favorite promotion. All of this comes down to expectation. When I watch AEW I'm not watching it for a serious take on wrestling I'm watching it for a fun circus of chaos.


Fine if you dig it, but this places you in a very small niche of people that like this stuff. The issue is that it's killing a much larger part of their potential fanbase because what they're showcasing looks goofy and stupid, even for wrestling standards. It's the type of shit you'd expect from Chikara, and not a major promotion on TNT.

At least the WWE had larger-than-life stars back when their goofy shit would fly, because the attractive characters would offset the rest. Still, I don't think they ever went as far as have a guy wrestle with his hands in his pants. If someone threw a weak / girly punch back in the Hogan / Austin eras, they'd get legit shooted on for making their opponent look bad.


----------



## NathanMayberry (Oct 11, 2019)

Firefromthegods said:


> Cause his an amalgamation of America? Lazy, think they are too cool for school, only does something if they are forced to, canada and Britain hate him hence why his only feuded with pac and Jericho, doesn't appear to be all that bright, doesn't wear a mask during a pandemic etc
> 
> Maybe Tony just wants to mock Americans by using an American instead of a foreign heel and his able to get away with it cause Americans in 2020 have proven they just don't give a fuck?
> 
> ...


He's none of that. His character has no story, depth or purpose. AEW marketed itself as "real sports feel, where wins and losses matter" yet he shits all over that. 

He basically gives ammunition to all those Wrestling haters who say "you know that's shits fake right?". Having him on the card is already bad enough, WWF had clowns too during the Attitude era, but the fact that he's appeared in a Ladder match for a world title shot and didn't know how to climb a ladder or even care to try and is now in a feud with the company's biggest star is ridiculous and a chief reason why AEW's viewership is in the toilet. 

Clowns are supposed to interact with jobbers and other low card guys. You never saw Scotty 2 Hotty, Spike Dudley or the Hurricane in blood feuds with top guys and main eventing big events, for a reason. If people wanted comedy on Wednesday night they'd watch actual funny shit on TV or Netflix, not Pockets.


----------



## NathanMayberry (Oct 11, 2019)

Hephaesteus said:


> I believe he's promoted cuz its a quick easy pop with a unique enough gimmick that people dig him for now. I get why they're doing this, just feel that their resources are better spent elsewhere.


People popped for The Worm too when Scotty 2 Hotty did it. They popped for Head when Al Snow walked around with her. They popped for Rico when he would kiss guys.

And they'd pop for Orange Cassidy doing everything he's doing now to Jericho, with a low carder in a low card feud. This main event feud doesn't elevate Orange Cassidy, it lowers Jericho and AEW as a whole because Jericho was a massive pillar for AEW. This is a lose-lose for all involved. If Jericho wins he beat a clown, if he loses he got beat by a clown. If Orange Cassidy wins, he'll be a clown. If he loses, he'll still be a clown.


----------



## $Dolladrew$ (Jun 15, 2020)

War OC you guys getting so pissed off is actually quite entertaining. 

Cant wait til fans come back and they go fucking nuts for OC.


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

$Dolladrew$ said:


> War OC you guys getting so pissed off is actually quite entertaining.
> 
> Cant wait til fans come back and they go fucking nuts for OC.


Fans aren’t coming back anytime soon, and OC might be done by then, because it’s truly awful programming and Tony Khan will have to respond at some time.

The opinion of AEW crowds means as much to me as the opinion of a TNA crowd, ECW crowd or Full Sail crowd. They are only useful when something _isn’t_ carried.


----------



## JeSeGaN (Jun 5, 2018)

OC's shtick is for the bingo halls, not for something this huge and worldwide. He's embarrassing himself, those that are forced to sell his BS and everyone watching.

AEW took a chance on him and he tanked (which everyone could see coming from miles away). Have Jericho go over him in under a minute and move on to someone better.


----------



## Blaze2k2 (Dec 3, 2019)

I can't wait to see the Cassidy/Jericho match tomorrow night. Early reports say it was a entertaining match with solid ring psychology and storytelling. This doesn't surprise me considering Cassidy's match with Pac at AEW Revolution was also entertaining. That was a 4 star match so if Cassidy/Jericho lives up to the reports then that should also be a 4 star match.


----------



## Hephaesteus (Aug 20, 2018)

Blaze2k2 said:


> I can't wait to see the Cassidy/Jericho match tomorrow night. Early reports say it was a entertaining match with solid ring psychology and storytelling. This doesn't surprise me considering Cassidy's match with Pac at AEW Revolution was also entertaining. That was a 4 star match so if Cassidy/Jericho lives up to the reports then that should also be a 4 star match.


4 stars out of 10?


----------



## Blaze2k2 (Dec 3, 2019)

Hephaesteus said:


> 4 stars out of 10?


Out of 5.


----------



## CenaBoy4Life (Jul 31, 2013)

I think its kinda obvious they are pushing OC because they dont want to rush possible good feuds during a pandemic with no crowds. The problem is ratings are tanking at an alarming rate. You cant coast by on funny shit or throwaway feuds for a year until this is over.


----------



## ECFuckinW (Jun 29, 2020)

Blaze2k2 said:


> Out of 5.


I like the cut of your jib!!!

Props for not backing down to the verbal assault and maintaining a cool disposition.(might I say OC esque?)

I dont think these guys understand kayfabe is dead no one believes it's real the most important part is entertainment.

I love orange cant wait for tomorrow but good thing we get him tonight on dark too.


----------



## Blaze2k2 (Dec 3, 2019)

ECFuckinW said:


> I like the cut of your jib!!!
> 
> Props for not backing down to the verbal assault and maintaining a cool disposition.(might I say OC esque?)


Thanks. Bottom line nobody's going to force me to not like what I like no matter how many times they repeat the same nonsense over and over again.



> I dont think these guys understand kayfabe is dead no one believes it's real the most important part is entertainment.


Once kayfabe died all the rules officially went out the window and then it became a case of you making wrestling whatever you want it to be. Hell, if there's anybody responsible for killing kayfabe it's Vince McMahon. 



> I love orange cant wait for tomorrow but good thing we get him tonight on dark too.


Indeed.


----------



## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

$Dolladrew$ said:


> War OC you guys getting so pissed off is actually quite entertaining.
> 
> Cant wait til fans come back and they go fucking nuts for OC.


It baffles me on this forum that people openly want shitty performers and shitty angles on the shows to piss off "da haters"

Will you be excited this week when Jericho/Cassidy loses to NXT's main event offering for the 4th or 5th week in a row?


----------



## $Dolladrew$ (Jun 15, 2020)

Chip Chipperson said:


> It baffles me on this forum that people openly want shitty performers and shitty angles on the shows to piss off "da haters"
> 
> Will you be excited this week when Jericho/Cassidy loses to NXT's main event offering for the 4th or 5th week in a row?


Oh I want OC in AEW because hes one of my favorites and is unique and gets huge crowd pops you'll see when fans return.

It pissing you guys off is just an added bonus so whenever say OC squashes a 200+lb. Guy in under a minute with a single superman punch it just makes it that much sweeter.No different then any other sport when a rival team fan talks crap then your team wins lol 

As long as ratings go up and the match is good I dont care they may have lost but ratings in all categories also went up so yeah lol.


----------



## One Shed (Jan 7, 2014)

$Dolladrew$ said:


> Oh I want OC in AEW because hes one of my favorites and is unique and gets huge crowd pops you'll see when fans return.
> 
> It pissing you guys off is just an added bonus so whenever say OC squashes a 200+lb. Guy in under a minute with a single superman punch it just makes it that much sweeter.No different then any other sport when a rival team fan talks crap then your team wins lol
> 
> As long as ratings go up and the match is good I dont care they may have lost but ratings in all categories also went up so yeah lol.


So you will be happy if he completely takes a crap on the business? Squashes an adult human in under a minute? You WANT that to happen because you will then know the people who want an actual serious product will be annoyed? What kind of attitude is that?

If they keep pushing this dude as a main event talent, you are pretty soon going to be laughing in smaller and smaller groups of people until it is just you and five other guys who think kayfabe being dead means anything should go.

If Lance Archer or Brian Cage walk down the ramp and before OC can get his second play kick in punches him so hard he goes through the uprights in Jaguars stadium, I will not be happy because it will piss people like you off, I will be happy because it will be a good thing for the health of the business and company. That is the difference.


----------



## $Dolladrew$ (Jun 15, 2020)

Lheurch said:


> So you will be happy if he completely takes a crap on the business? Squashes an adult human in under a minute? You WANT that to happen because you will then know the people who want an actual serious product will be annoyed? What kind of attitude is that?
> 
> If they keep pushing this dude as a main event talent, you are pretty soon going to be laughing in smaller and smaller groups of people until it is just you and five other guys who think kayfabe being dead means anything should go.
> 
> If Lance Archer or Brian Cage walk down the ramp and before OC can get his second play kick in punches him so hard he goes through the uprights in Jaguars stadium, I will not be happy because it will piss people like you off, I will be happy because it will be a good thing for the health of the business and company. That is the difference.


Apparently you didnt watch dark lol cuz that's exactly what happened OC squashed a 200+lb guy with one superman punch after dodging one attack.Now I'm even more hyped for tomorrow. 

As I ALREADY stated you guys getting all butt hurt is just a cherry on top it's not the driving force of my fandom its just a bonus hahahaha.

Yeah yeah blah blah blah your not changing my opinion bud move on talk all the crap you want it literally does nothing to change my opinion I simply dont agree with you at all.


----------



## One Shed (Jan 7, 2014)

$Dolladrew$ said:


> Apparently you didnt watch dark lol cuz that's exactly what happened OC squashed a much larger guy with one blown.
> 
> As I ALREADY stated you guys getting all butt hurt is just a cherry on top it's not the driving force of my fandom its just a bonus hahahaha.
> 
> Yeah yeah blah blah blah your not changing my opinion bud move on.


No...I have never watched Dark, like most other people. If you really think having a skinny goof beat a large guy in any match, let alone a squash, is good for any one or any company, it just blows my mind.

It is incredible to me that you are OK with dropping ratings and making a product look stupid, as long as it makes some people annoyed on a forum.


----------



## $Dolladrew$ (Jun 15, 2020)

Lheurch said:


> No...I have never watched Dark, like most other people. If you really think having a skinny goof beat a large guy in any match, let alone a squash, is good for any one or any company, it just blows my mind.
> 
> It is incredible to me that you are OK with dropping ratings and making a product look stupid, as long as it makes some people annoyed on a forum.


I'm a former mma journalist and martial arts practitioner it is absolutely 100% possible for a much smaller man to defeat a larger be it knock out or submission in the age of combat sports it's not sheer size that determines the winner that hasn't been the case for decades.

As for your second point.....reading comprehension must not be your strength ......I've explained multiple times that you guys being up in arms is just an extra little amusement it's not the reason I like OC ....I like things you dont and you cry so much that when something I like happens and I know you're all pissy about it I just get an extra giggle of satisfaction.Now that I've explained that 3 times feel free to hammer home the same false narrative you've been attempting so 2 or 3 ppl will hit you with a like lmfao.....dont be so thirsty my man.


----------



## ECFuckinW (Jun 29, 2020)

$Dolladrew$ said:


> I'm a former mma journalist and martial arts practitioner it is absolutely 100% possible for a much smaller man to defeat a larger be it knock out or submission in the age of combat sports it's not sheer size that determines the winner that hasn't been the case for decades.
> 
> As for your second point.....reading comprehension must not be your strength ......I've explained multiple times that you guys being up in arms is just an extra little amusement it's not the reason I like OC ....I like things you dont and you cry so much that when something I like happens and I know you're all pissy about it I just get an extra giggle of satisfaction.Now that I've explained that 3 times feel free to hammer home the same false narrative you've been attempting so 2 or 3 ppl will hit you with a like lmfao.....dont be so thirsty my man.


Winner by superman punch 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣


----------



## Blaze2k2 (Dec 3, 2019)

ECFuckinW said:


> Winner by superman punch 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣


You didn't know. In the non kayfabe era it's a superpower like Hulk Hogan's "Hulking up" superpower where he becomes invincible for 2 minutes. If I was a wrestler I would have a superpower built into my gimmick too.


----------



## yeahbaby! (Jan 27, 2014)

Part of the reason why him and his ilk suck so much is AEW was marketed and promo'd so much as being the 'return of pro wrestling' with all the connotations that go with statement. A product that takes the business seriously enough to have credibility as portraying fighting contests rather than sports entertainment displays. I'm sure Mox did a big impassioned promo touting AEW as the place that's going to 'bring back wrestling'.

The problem is that hasn't happened. To me at least, AEW isn't much different to WWE apart from the AEW guys get to do more dangerous moves and have hardcore matches. It's still sports entertainment and guys like OC are the example. At the very least they're WCW 2000


----------



## ECFuckinW (Jun 29, 2020)

Blaze2k2 said:


> You didn't know. In the non kayfabe era it's a superpower like Hulk Hogan's "Hulking up" superpower where he becomes invincible for 2 minutes. If I was a wrestler I would have a superpower built into my gimmick too.


Actually I was talking about dolla slaying that fools comments lol IM A OC MARK.


----------



## One Shed (Jan 7, 2014)

$Dolladrew$ said:


> I'm a former mma journalist and martial arts practitioner it is absolutely 100% possible for a much smaller man to defeat a larger be it knock out or submission in the age of combat sports it's not sheer size that determines the winner that hasn't been the case for decades.
> 
> As for your second point.....reading comprehension must not be your strength ......I've explained multiple times that you guys being up in arms is just an extra little amusement it's not the reason I like OC ....I like things you dont and you cry so much that when something I like happens and I know you're all pissy about it I just get an extra giggle of satisfaction.Now that I've explained that 3 times feel free to hammer home the same false narrative you've been attempting so 2 or 3 ppl will hit you with a like lmfao.....dont be so thirsty my man.


I ...refuse to believe you were a journalist with your lack of even basic grammar skills. Of course it is POSSIBLE. It is just not likely and there are good reasons why weight classes exist. I have already gone over all that on here though in the last week. I am not going to do it again. A skinny goof like OC is not believable vs anyone decent.

It is fine that you like things others do not. No one here is crying, we simply want the product that was promised to us. We hate seeing obvious mistakes being made. Some here seem to be happy with goofs dancing around listening to the music that Nero is fiddling, ignoring what the consequences of that will be. "Man, those guys who want a product they were promised must be REALLY hating this!" Yeah, we do, and it led to the worst rating the product has ever done. If you want a goofy clown show, make one and call it that.


----------



## $Dolladrew$ (Jun 15, 2020)

Lheurch said:


> I ...refuse to believe you were a journalist with your lack of even basic grammar skills. Of course it is POSSIBLE. It is just not likely and there are good reasons why weight classes exist. I have already gone over all that on here though in the last week. I am not going to do it again. A skinny goof like OC is not believable vs anyone decent.
> 
> It is fine that you like things others do not. No one here is crying, we simply want the product that was promised to us. We hate seeing obvious mistakes being made. Some here seem to be happy with goofs dancing around listening to the music that Nero is fiddling, ignoring what the consequences of that will be. "Man, those guys who want a product they were promised must be REALLY hating this!" Yeah, we do, and it led to the worst rating the product has ever done. If you want a goofy clown show, make one and call it that.


I'm on my phone and this isn't a journalistic piece lmfao.Ive worked for multiple mma websites in various positions as well as trained various martial arts for 10+ years including stays at AKA and Arizona Combat sports whether you choose to believe that really doesn't matter to me I can talk circles around you when its mma related. 

Yeah a skinny 185lb Royce Gracie shouldn't have beaten a 200+ pound Dan Severn or Ken shamrock.....go train at a real gym and see qm145lb females submitting grown men.....your size limitations are quite outdated.

I don't mind you having another opinion but you guys tend to just shit on anyone's positive opinion to the point where its insulting so it comes off as crying.Like I said your not changing my opinion at all just move on lol.


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

ECFuckinW said:


> I like the cut of your jib!!!
> 
> Props for not backing down to the verbal assault and maintaining a cool disposition.(might I say OC esque?)
> 
> ...


Orange Cassidy is not entertaining. Without even attempting kayfabe, what is the point of anything? It’s just gymnastics. Boring.


----------



## ECFuckinW (Jun 29, 2020)

The Wood said:


> Orange Cassidy is not entertaining. Without even attempting kayfabe, what is the point of anything? It’s just gymnastics. Boring.


I love OC I dont care in the least that you dont like him.I loved seeing him dodge that big fool and knock him dead with a nice superman punch WAR OC FUCK THE HATERS.


----------



## One Shed (Jan 7, 2014)

$Dolladrew$ said:


> I'm on my phone and this isn't a journalistic piece lmfao.Ive worked for multiple mma websites in various positions as well as trained various martial arts for 10+ years including stays at AKA and Arizona Combat sports whether you choose to believe that really doesn't matter to me I can talk circles around you when its mma related.
> 
> Yeah a skinny 185lb Royce Gracie shouldn't have beaten a 200+ pound Dan Severn or Ken shamrock.....go train at a real gym and see qm145lb females submitting grown men.....your size limitations are quite outdated.
> 
> I don't mind you having another opinion but you guys tend to just shit on anyone's positive opinion to the point where its insulting so it comes off as crying.Like I said your not changing my opinion at all just move on lol.


If you want to sound ignorant on a forum, that is on you. It really only takes a bit of effort to use punctuation.

Royce Gracie is one of the best ever, and he is not going around playkicking Ken Shamrock. Like I have said many times, it CAN happen, especially when you have an era defining star from a family that pretty much created modern MMA. It is the exception, rather than the rule. UFCs 1 -5 are still some of my favorite events ever. And yes, you can have highly trained females beating untrained or beginning men every single day. But you will NEVER have the highest trained best men being beaten by women. General Strongmen sure, but not in like for like skills and training. Again, weight classes and gender separation exist for a reason in sports.

If you follow the weekly watch along thread, you can see most of us in there giving positive comments, especially last week when they put on a great show. We praise things we like and criticize things we do not, just like every aspect of life. And amazingly, we do all disagree with each other on things because we are all individuals. Plenty of AEW hardcores hate the Dark Order, is that allowed? The more insulting something they do is though, the more people are likely to criticize it.


----------



## $Dolladrew$ (Jun 15, 2020)

__





Redirect Notice






www.google.com


----------



## CM Buck (Sep 2, 2012)

NathanMayberry said:


> He's none of that. His character has no story, depth or purpose. AEW marketed itself as "real sports feel, where wins and losses matter" yet he shits all over that.
> 
> He basically gives ammunition to all those Wrestling haters who say "you know that's shits fake right?". Having him on the card is already bad enough, WWF had clowns too during the Attitude era, but the fact that he's appeared in a Ladder match for a world title shot and didn't know how to climb a ladder or even care to try and is now in a feud with the company's biggest star is ridiculous and a chief reason why AEW's viewership is in the toilet.
> 
> Clowns are supposed to interact with jobbers and other low card guys. You never saw Scotty 2 Hotty, Spike Dudley or the Hurricane in blood feuds with top guys and main eventing big events, for a reason. If people wanted comedy on Wednesday night they'd watch actual funny shit on TV or Netflix, not Pockets.


His a meme wrestler. Memes die after a year. Perfect 10. Otis. Fandango. OC will be in the lower card eventually.

Let people enjoy the meme for a while.


----------



## $Dolladrew$ (Jun 15, 2020)

I just read orange Cassidy was fire ant in chikara???? Talk about polar opposites.


----------



## Hephaesteus (Aug 20, 2018)

Firefromthegods said:


> His a meme wrestler. Memes die after a year. Perfect 10. Otis. Fandango. OC will be in the lower card eventually.
> 
> Let people enjoy the meme for a while.


If he wasnt being presented as a challenge to main eventers, nobody would have a problem with him or his act


----------



## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

I know a fair few holds and whilst I'm far from a bad ass (And too much of a pussy to ever agree to strikes) I can tell you all that if I take on someone my own size or smaller that has no idea what they're doing it's usually an easy win if it's a big guy who has no idea what they're doing they'll generally win just because everything is harder against a big guy.

I don't doubt a professional female MMA fighter could belt a big guy who is starting out or has never trained before or a great MMA fighter that is at a 9 kilo (20 pound) disadvantage could get something done but in terms of kayfabe Jericho is one of the greatest of all time, has a significant size advantage (Jericho is about 4-5 inches taller and about 50 pounds heavier). In terms of kayfabe Jericho should win every time and whoever said OC shouldn't be anywhere near him is 110% correct.


----------



## CM Buck (Sep 2, 2012)

Hephaesteus said:


> If he wasnt being presented as a challenge to main eventers, nobody would have a problem with him or his act


It wont last. This is his Otis moment. The only difference is that AEW isn't as retarded as WWE and runs a joke in to the ground. 

If he beats Jericho he will have jumped the shark


----------



## Cult03 (Oct 31, 2016)

This isn't the non-Kayfabe era. Stop saying it


----------



## $Dolladrew$ (Jun 15, 2020)

Lheurch said:


> If you want to sound ignorant on a forum, that is on you. It really only takes a bit of effort to use punctuation.
> 
> Royce Gracie is one of the best ever, and he is not going around playkicking Ken Shamrock. Like I have said many times, it CAN happen, especially when you have an era defining star from a family that pretty much created modern MMA. It is the exception, rather than the rule. UFCs 1 -5 are still some of my favorite events ever. And yes, you can have highly trained females beating untrained or beginning men every single day. But you will NEVER have the highest trained best men being beaten by women. General Strongmen sure, but not in like for like skills and training. Again, weight classes and gender separation exist for a reason in sports.
> 
> If you follow the weekly watch along thread, you can see most of us in there giving positive comments, especially last week when they put on a great show. We praise things we like and criticize things we do not, just like every aspect of life. And amazingly, we do all disagree with each other on things because we are all individuals. Plenty of AEW hardcores hate the Dark Order, is that allowed? The more insulting something they do is though, the more people are likely to criticize it.


I don't care .....

The point of Gracie is the size differentials he overcame.....of course royce isn't play fighting lol.

So I'm guessing you've never actually trained at a real gym I've seen first hand Daniel Cormier being tapped out by Amanda nunes and cris cyborg beating the crap out of any and all comers.Point being this day in age it as not far fetched for a smaller competitor to beat a much larger guy.

Like I've already said I dont agree with you but the difference is i dont feel the need to shit on your opinions to the point where its insulting.I dont agree with you so just agree to disagree cuz you ain't changing my opinion at all.


----------



## One Shed (Jan 7, 2014)

$Dolladrew$ said:


> of course royce isn't play fighting lol.


Really? WHY? Almost like a serious person carries himself seriously. Imagine if Royce Gracie walked up to his opponent and play kicked him. We may be onto something here.



$Dolladrew$ said:


> So I'm guessing you've never actually trained at a real gym I've seen first hand Daniel Cormier being tapped out by Amanda nunes and cris cyborg beating the crap out of any and all comers.Point being this day in age it as not far fetched for a smaller competitor to beat a much larger guy.


Your run on sentences have to stop. "Any and all comers" do not equal trained people. How hard is this point to make? It still is far fetched, that is why you can name the very few instances where it happened off the top of your head.



$Dolladrew$ said:


> Like I've already said I dont agree with you but the difference is i dont feel the need to shit on your opinions to the point where its insulting.I dont agree with you so just agree to disagree cuz you ain't changing my opinion at all.


The lack of grammar hurts. What have you been doing here? You have been "shitting on our opinions" that OC sucks. Literally laughing at us so that it is a cherry on top of whatever dessert you are eating. Weird. Your posts are so hard to read. Look, my criticisms are mainly directed at the crap the multi-million dollar company throws at me, not you. My opinions are based on those, in research terms, primary documents, the company gives me. Not your opinions. The company said one thing and has done another. That is just objective truth.

I know there is nothing that can change your mind, that is very clear. And that is evidence of a closed mind. You keep repeating that there is nothing I can do or say to change it. We get it, your mind is immutable. So why comment if you cannot change?


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

Hephaesteus said:


> If he wasnt being presented as a challenge to main eventers, nobody would have a problem with him or his act


Actually, I have to put my hand up and say that I would. It's fucking bogus. 



Cult03 said:


> This isn't the non-Kayfabe era. Stop saying it


Fucking right.


----------



## Blaze2k2 (Dec 3, 2019)

Cult03 said:


> This isn't the non-Kayfabe era. Stop saying it


I'll say it all day and night. This is the non kayfabe era. Blame your boy Vince for creating it.


----------



## Cult03 (Oct 31, 2016)

Blaze2k2 said:


> I'll say it all day and night. This is the non kayfabe era. Blame your boy Vince for creating it.


You can say it two more times if you want. Just means you'll be wrong two more times. Era's are named after the fact. You can't refer to it as the non-Kayfabe era because firstly, it's fucking stupid and 2nd it's literal definition is the convention of presenting staged performances as genuine or authentic. Non-kayfabe implies there's nothing fake happening at all. The entire in ring situation that occurs is considered kayfabe as it's presenting staged fighting as genuine. 

Excusing things like this is just lazy on your behalf. It's basically yelling "it's not real" like every single wrestling detractor has said over the years. We already know that. We get that the AEW super fan that frequents this forum and many others hates wrestling but those that want it to be better aren't settling for your bullshit phrases and reasoning.


----------



## Blaze2k2 (Dec 3, 2019)

Cult03 said:


> You can say it two more times if you want. Just means you'll be wrong two more times. Era's are named after the fact. You can't refer to it as the non-Kayfabe era because firstly, it's fucking stupid and 2nd it's literal definition is the convention of presenting staged performances as genuine or authentic. Non-kayfabe implies there's nothing fake happening at all.
> The entire in ring situation that occurs is considered kayfabe as it's presenting staged fighting as genuine.


That's not my definition of it nor what I mean. Non kayfabe means we are no longer trying to present something fake as real and therefore no longer follow the logical rules assigned to that presentation. We are now presenting something fake as fake to where no logical rules apply. In this presentation you can have super powers like Hulk Hogan's "Hulking Up" or supernatural abilities like the Undertaker. You can teleport. You don't have to sell injuries for longer than 10 seconds. You can do whatever highspot you feel no matter your size. You can have over the top comedy, hardcore death matches, you name it. This is what I mean by non kayfabe. The illusion is gone. 



> Excusing things like this is just lazy on your behalf.


I'm not excusing anything. I genuinely like what I watch. Not every wrestling promotion needs to be serious. There's room for variety. If I want to watch serious I watch New Japan. AEW is never going to be New Japan. 



> It's basically yelling "it's not real" like every single wrestling detractor has said over the years. We already know that.


No, it's more along the lines of the product is what it is and all the crying from disgruntled wrestling fans on a wrestling message board isn't going to change that.



> We get that the AEW super fan that frequents this forum and many others hates wrestling but those that want it to be better aren't settling for your bullshit phrases and reasoning.


I couldn't care less whether random people on a internet wrestling forum agree with me or not. They have their opinion, you have yours and I have mine. The end!


----------



## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

Damn what a stupid argument (No disrespect but damn)

Imagine a movie producer writing a drama, walking in and saying "Alright gents, people know movies are fake so lets throw all logic, reasoning and good storytelling out the door and throw in random comedy scenes, teleportation, super powers oh and by the way actors I don't want you to actually act just do what you want in front of camera"

That's what our mate Blaze is suggesting.


----------



## Blaze2k2 (Dec 3, 2019)

Chip Chipperson said:


> Damn what a stupid argument (No disrespect but damn)
> 
> Imagine a movie producer writing a drama, walking in and saying "Alright gents, people know movies are fake so lets throw all logic, reasoning and good storytelling out the door and throw in random comedy scenes, teleportation, super powers oh and by the way actors I don't want you to actually act just do what you want in front of camera"
> 
> That's what our mate Blaze is suggesting.


That's a bad analogy because there's different type of movies. Yes movies are fake but there's different genres of movies. Some movies are literally taken from real life stories (Goodfellas) so they have to follow the rules of being real. Then you have movies like comedy parodies (Black Dynamite, I'm gonna get you sucker) that aren't trying to be real or logical in any sense. Both genres of films are entertaining for different reasons and that's what I'm trying to say similarity to wrestling. You don't want all wrestling promotions to be serious in the same way I don't want all movies to be Goodfellas. I want variety.


----------



## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

Blaze2k2 said:


> That's a bad analogy because there's different type of movies. Yes movies are fake but there's different genres of movies. Some movies are literally taken from real life stories (Goodfellas) so they have to follow the rules of being real. Then you have movies like comedy parodies (Black Dynamite, I'm gonna get you sucker) that aren't trying to be real or logical in any sense. Both genres of films are entertaining for different reasons and that's what I'm trying to say similarity to wrestling. You don't want all wrestling promotions to be serious in the same way I don't want all movies to be Goodfellas. I want variety.


Goodfellas is a legendary movie that grossed 46 million dollars in 1990 (90.2 million dollars today). It made a profit of almost 22 million dollars and will go down as one of the greatest crime movies of all time.

Black Dynamite is a film I've never heard of. It grossed 296,000 USD and the producer lost 2.6 million dollars on the film.

Both grosses are on IMDB, feel free to have a look.

I know some parodies were very successful such as the Scary Movie franchise but when you talk about films with people (And I was in that world for a little bit so I know this to be a fact) they always talk about their favourite movies being films that managed to have them suspend their disbelief and got true emotion out of them. When Rocky went toe to toe with Apollo Creed only to lose we felt that, in Lethal Weapon when Martin Riggs hunts down the bad guys responsible for killing his wife we feel that, when Chris Gardner FINALLY made it in the Pursuit Of Happiness after living in a train station toilet we feel that. That's what sticks with people.

Sure, a comedy parody or dumb slapped together films like Jay and Silent Bob might appeal to stoners or people who just want to switch their brains off and laugh at juvenile comedy bits but the true films that win awards, make major money, stick with people, inspire people and excite them are always the ones produced by people who give a fuck.

And it's the same with wrestling. Funk winning the ECW Title? We felt it. Mankind, Daniel Bryan, CM Punk etc overcoming the odds to reach the mountain top? We felt that. Austin and Rock's on and off again rivalry at the start of the millennium? We felt it. Orange Cassidy being a goof every week on TV? Nobody feels that.


----------



## Blaze2k2 (Dec 3, 2019)

Chip Chipperson said:


> Goodfellas is a legendary movie that grossed 46 million dollars in 1990 (90.2 million dollars today). It made a profit of almost 22 million dollars and will go down as one of the greatest crime movies of all time.
> 
> Black Dynamite is a film I've never heard of. It grossed 296,000 USD and the producer lost 2.6 million dollars on the film.
> 
> Both grosses are on IMDB, feel free to have a look.


Black Dynamite is more of a cult classic. it was released in limited theaters and did better when it arrived on DVD. Pulp Fiction is another film that didn't do great at the box office but developed a cult following on DVD.



> I know some parodies were very successful such as the Scary Movie franchise but when you talk about films with people (And I was in that world for a little bit so I know this to be a fact) they always talk about their favourite movies being films that managed to have them suspend their disbelief and got true emotion out of them.


My cousin's favorite film is "Ghostbusters". My friend who I've worked with for over 20 years his favorite film is "Deadpool". Both films have a lot of illogical things in them but they're both entertaining films.



> When Rocky went toe to toe with Apollo Creed only to lose we felt that


I didn't. The Rocky franchise is one of the most unrealistic film series of all time. 



> in Lethal Weapon when Martin Riggs hunts down the bad guys responsible for killing his wife we feel that, when Chris Gardner FINALLY made it in the Pursuit Of Happiness after living in a train station toilet we feel that. That's what sticks with people.


These are drama driven films designed to get that reaction. 



> Sure, a comedy parody or dumb slapped together films like Jay and Silent Bob might appeal to stoners or people who just want to switch their brains off and laugh at juvenile comedy bits but the true films that win awards, make major money, stick with people, inspire people and excite them are always the ones produced by people who give a fuck.


Hollywood has always been bias when it comes to film genres. They don't like horror, they don't like comedy, they don't like parodies, they don't like superhero movies, fantasy, etc. Everything has to fit in a certain box and if it doesn't fit in that box then it doesn't win awards and shit. 



> And it's the same with wrestling. Funk winning the ECW Title? We felt it. Mankind, Daniel Bryan, CM Punk etc overcoming the odds to reach the mountain top? We felt that. Austin and Rock's on and off again rivalry at the start of the millennium? We felt it. Orange Cassidy being a goof every week on TV? Nobody feels that.


You don't particularly feel that but a lot of people do. If Cassidy wasn't over they wouldn't be wasting their time pushing him but they know Cassidy has an audience.


----------



## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

You're right, Cassidy has an audience of just over half a million people. I guarantee NXT's main event tomorrow beats AEW's main event tomorrow ratings wise. Nobody cares about Orange Cassidy on a large scale.


----------



## Blaze2k2 (Dec 3, 2019)

Chip Chipperson said:


> You're right, Cassidy has an audience of just over half a million people. I guarantee NXT's main event tomorrow beats AEW's main event tomorrow ratings wise. Nobody cares about Orange Cassidy on a large scale.


Of course Cole/Lee is gonna beat Cassidy/Jericho. Cole/Lee is a title match we've been waiting on for a while. Originally, Cole/Lee was supposed to go up against Cage/Moxley but AEW had to push that match back so they scrambled and decided to put Cassidy/Jericho in that spot. Regardless of what match AEW would've put in that spot it's not gonna beat Cole/Lee.


----------



## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

Blaze2k2 said:


> Of course Cole/Lee is gonna beat Cassidy/Jericho. Cole/Lee is a title match we've been waiting on for a while. Originally, Cole/Lee was supposed to go up against Cage/Moxley but AEW had to push that match back so they scrambled and decided to put Cassidy/Jericho in that spot. Regardless of what match AEW would've put in that spot it's not gonna beat Cole/Lee.


If Cassidy was over as you say his match with one of the best of all time in Jericho would easily beat Cole/Lee who are top stars in the WWE's minor leagues.


----------



## Blaze2k2 (Dec 3, 2019)

Chip Chipperson said:


> If Cassidy was over as you say his match with one of the best of all time in Jericho would easily beat Cole/Lee who are top stars in the WWE's minor leagues.


This is new ground for Cassidy. He's never main evented at this level before. He's over but he's over in more of a midcarder way not a main eventer way. We'll see what happens. From everything that I've been reading the match is supposed to be excellent so I'm looking forward to watching it tonight.


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

Cult03 said:


> You can say it two more times if you want. Just means you'll be wrong two more times. Era's are named after the fact. You can't refer to it as the non-Kayfabe era because firstly, it's fucking stupid and 2nd it's literal definition is the convention of presenting staged performances as genuine or authentic. Non-kayfabe implies there's nothing fake happening at all. The entire in ring situation that occurs is considered kayfabe as it's presenting staged fighting as genuine.
> 
> Excusing things like this is just lazy on your behalf. It's basically yelling "it's not real" like every single wrestling detractor has said over the years. We already know that. We get that the AEW super fan that frequents this forum and many others hates wrestling but those that want it to be better aren't settling for your bullshit phrases and reasoning.


This post is great. It’s amazing how many people who proclaim the death of kayfabe don’t really know what it means. 



Blaze2k2 said:


> That's a bad analogy because there's different type of movies. Yes movies are fake but there's different genres of movies. Some movies are literally taken from real life stories (Goodfellas) so they have to follow the rules of being real. Then you have movies like comedy parodies (Black Dynamite, I'm gonna get you sucker) that aren't trying to be real or logical in any sense. Both genres of films are entertaining for different reasons and that's what I'm trying to say similarity to wrestling. You don't want all wrestling promotions to be serious in the same way I don't want all movies to be Goodfellas. I want variety.


Yes, and pro-wrestling is kind of its own genre that is based on realism, or is at least most effective when it is. More wrestling should try and be Goodfellas if it wants to succeed at that.

By the way, they are still pushing Orange Cassidy because TK doesn’t have the gumption to pull a guy and risk hurting his feelings.


----------



## elidrakefan76 (Jul 23, 2018)

Orange Cassidy and the other 2 Best Friends are basically all fruits/fruitcakes as people so why not name the other 2 after fruits as well? How do Cherry Chuck and Tangerine Trent sound?


----------



## Blaze2k2 (Dec 3, 2019)

Jericho really putting this Cassidy match over hard on this Twitter. Says it's one of the best matches he's had in his career. I was eager to see it before now I'm really eager to see it.


----------



## One Shed (Jan 7, 2014)

Blaze2k2 said:


> Jericho really putting this Cassidy match over hard on this Twitter. Says it's one of the best matches he's had in his career. I was eager to see it before now I'm really eager to see it.


One might almost call it...desperation...


----------



## Swan-San (May 25, 2019)

He's desperate not to flop in the ratings again


----------



## elidrakefan76 (Jul 23, 2018)

Blaze2k2 said:


> Jericho really putting this Cassidy match over hard on this Twitter. Says it's one of the best matches he's had in his career. I was eager to see it before now I'm really eager to see it.


Jericho is actually putting Slim Cassidy up there with other greats that he has faced in his career like Eddie Guerrero, Triple H, Chris Benoit and so on? I wonder what he has been smoking or snorting.


----------



## One Shed (Jan 7, 2014)

elidrakefan76 said:


> Jericho is actually putting Slim Cassidy up there with other greats that he has faced in his career like Eddie Guerrero, Triple H, Chris Benoit and so on? I wonder what he has been smoking or snorting.


Part of his deal might be based on increased viewership and his segment with OC was their lowest ever. Follow the money.


----------



## Hephaesteus (Aug 20, 2018)

Jesus, jericho dont oversell it like that


----------



## elidrakefan76 (Jul 23, 2018)

Lheurch said:


> Part of his deal might be based on increased viewership and his segment with OC was their lowest ever. Follow the money.


Trying to put Cassidy over, which I can understand, is one thing but saying that it's going to be one of the best matches of his career is just very delusional.


----------



## One Shed (Jan 7, 2014)

elidrakefan76 said:


> Trying to put Cassidy over, which I can understand, is one thing but saying that it's going to be one of the best matches of his career is just very delusional.


I cannot understand either. He is their top name and star and he is having a match with a goof.


----------



## Blaze2k2 (Dec 3, 2019)

I think it's a no-win situation because even if the match turns out to a five star classic the people who hate Orange Cassidy are still going to hate him regardless. The Cassidy haters won't be swayed.


----------



## elidrakefan76 (Jul 23, 2018)

Lheurch said:


> I cannot understand either. He is their top name and star and he is having a match with a goof.


It's obvious that they want Cassidy to be a big star but I'm just not seeing it at all with him. I think that Cassidy's ceiling is as a mid-carder.


----------



## Blaze2k2 (Dec 3, 2019)

Lheurch said:


> One might almost call it...desperation...


Of course you're gonna say that.


----------



## Blaze2k2 (Dec 3, 2019)

elidrakefan76 said:


> It's obvious that they want Cassidy to be a big star but I'm just not seeing it at all with him. I think that Cassidy's ceiling is as a mid-carder.


And that's fine. Who's saying he needs to be a main eventer? You can be a star without being a main eventer.


----------



## One Shed (Jan 7, 2014)

Blaze2k2 said:


> I think it's a no-win situation because even if the match turns out to a five star classic the people who hate Orange Cassidy are still going to hate him regardless. The Cassidy haters won't be swayed.


You have to be capable of a five star match in order to have one. Anyone objective can change their mind. Plenty of talent have caused me to change my mind on them by working hard and improving. I have said a few times on here that OC could be a decent worker by taking himself seriously and bulking up. So far, he has not.


----------



## elidrakefan76 (Jul 23, 2018)

When standing next to Jericho without his sunglasses on, Cassidy looks like he could be Jericho's defiant teenage son.


----------



## One Shed (Jan 7, 2014)

Blaze2k2 said:


> And that's fine. Who's saying he needs to be a main eventer? You can be a star without being a main eventer.


He is in the main event tonight. The company's top star will be selling for a skinny goof and it will hurt the company's brand. Stop excusing the stupid.


----------



## Blaze2k2 (Dec 3, 2019)

Lheurch said:


> You have to be capable of a five star match in order to have one.


He's capable of having a 4 star match as he's already done that with his match with Pac at Revolution. We'll see if he can top that performance tonight.



> Anyone objective can change their mind.


I'm not getting an objective vibe from a lot of people in this forum. I'm getting a "Orange Cassidy doesn't fit into my box of who I want him to be so he sucks" vibe.



> Plenty of talent have caused me to change my mind on them by working hard and improving.


So they have to fit into your box. They have to do A, B and C before you can see them in a different light. 



> I have said a few times on here that OC could be a decent worker by taking himself seriously and bulking up. So far, he has not.


He's a decent worker now and bulking up to look like Pac completely goes against his gimmick and turns him into someone else. I don't want him to be someone else I want him to be Orange Cassidy.


----------



## Blaze2k2 (Dec 3, 2019)

Lheurch said:


> He is in the main event tonight. The company's top star will be selling for a skinny goof and it will hurt the company's brand. Stop excusing the stupid.


He's only in the main event tonight by circumstance and no he's not going to hurt the company's brand. Stop with that bullshit!


----------



## One Shed (Jan 7, 2014)

Blaze2k2 said:


> He's only in the main event tonight by circumstance and no he's not going to hurt the company's brand. Stop with that bullshit!


Is there...another possible way for anyone to do anything other than the circumstances that exist? What crazy reasoning is this? Any company presenting something bad hurts it brands, some things more than others. Of course other things AEW COULD do would hurt it more. That is not a reason to excuse things that obviously do hurt it.


----------



## One Shed (Jan 7, 2014)

Blaze2k2 said:


> He's capable of having a 4 star match as he's already done that with his match with Pac at Revolution. We'll see if he can top that performance tonight.


He is certainly not capable of it now. He might be one day if he gets properly trained. Almost anyone can improve.



Blaze2k2 said:


> I'm not getting an objective vibe from a lot of people in this forum. I'm getting a "Orange Cassidy doesn't fit into my box of who I want him to be so he sucks" vibe.
> 
> So they have to fit into your box. They have to do A, B and C before you can see them in a different light.


Not sure I understand this line of thinking. Of course someone has to do something I like before I like them. That is kind of by definition. What I like can change, but of course someone has to take their job seriously before I can take them seriously in it.



Blaze2k2 said:


> He's a decent worker now and bulking up to look like Pac completely goes against his gimmick and turns him into someone else. I don't want him to be someone else I want him to be Orange Cassidy.


OK, that is fine. You want wrestling to be goofy and silly and not a sports-based presentation like AEW said it would be. If the people in the ring look like the people in your audience, what makes them special?


----------



## Prosper (Mar 25, 2015)

We all thought Penelope Ford vs Shida would be terrible but ended up being a 4-star match. Not saying that I believe Jericho's hype here, I think he's actually bullshitting and I don't see this being any more than 3 stars, but maybe we'll be surprised.


----------



## Blaze2k2 (Dec 3, 2019)

Lheurch said:


> Is there...another possible way for anyone to do anything other than the circumstances that exist? What crazy reasoning is this?


He's in the main event tonight because the Cage/Moxley match got delayed. I guess I got to spell everything out. Nobody can put two and two together.




> Any company presenting something bad hurts it brands, some things more than others. Of course other things AEW COULD do would hurt it more. That is not a reason to excuse things that obviously do hurt it.


You continuing the ramble on about it hurting the brand doesn't make it true. Please pull back and remember it's just your opinion you're not stating facts.


----------



## Blaze2k2 (Dec 3, 2019)

Lheurch said:


> OK, that is fine. You want wrestling to be goofy and silly and not a sports-based presentation like AEW said it would be.


I want variety. If I want sports based I'll watch New Japan. It's obvious that AEW is not going to be a sports based promotion no matter what they promised so why continue to whine and cry about it? I accept it for what it is which is a hybrid of different things. 



> If the people in the ring look like the people in your audience, what makes them special?


I don't want every wrestler to look like Orange Cassidy just like I don't want every wrestler to look like Brock Lesnar. I want a mixture of both. Variety!


----------



## One Shed (Jan 7, 2014)

Blaze2k2 said:


> He's in the main event tonight because the Cage/Moxley match got delayed. I guess I got to spell everything out. Nobody can put two and two together.


He was in the main event two weeks ago and it got the lowest rating in company history.



Blaze2k2 said:


> You continuing the ramble on about it hurting the brand doesn't make it true. Please pull back and remember it's just your opinion you're not stating facts.


Ratings are falling. Him main eventing brought them the lowest in their history. This is not opinion.


----------



## Blaze2k2 (Dec 3, 2019)

prosperwithdeen said:


> We all thought Penelope Ford vs Shida would be terrible but ended up being a 4-star match. Not saying that I believe Jericho's hype here, I think he's actually bullshitting and I don't see this being any more than 3 stars, but maybe we'll be surprised.


At the very least it will be a 4-star match. Cassidy is capable of that and Jericho is capable of that.


----------



## One Shed (Jan 7, 2014)

Blaze2k2 said:


> I want variety. If I want sports based I'll watch New Japan. It's obvious that AEW is not going to be a sports based promotion no matter what they promised so why continue to whine and cry about it? I accept it for what it is which is a hybrid of different things.


Why care about what the owner of a company said their company would be? Are you kidding?



Blaze2k2 said:


> I don't want every wrestler to look like Orange Cassidy just like I don't want every wrestler to look like Brock Lesnar. I want a mixture of both. Variety!


I do not understand the line of thinking of actually wanting skinny goofs in your main events.


----------



## One Shed (Jan 7, 2014)

Blaze2k2 said:


> At the very least it will be a 4-star match. Cassidy is capable of that and Jericho is capable of that.


So you have already decided it MUST be good?


----------



## Blaze2k2 (Dec 3, 2019)

Lheurch said:


> He was in the main event two weeks ago and it got the lowest rating in company history.
> 
> 
> Ratings are falling. Him main eventing brought them the lowest in their history. This is not opinion.


That wasn't a match it was a segment. Let's see where the ratings fall when they actually have a match. The actual main event match that week was Hardy vs. Santana.


----------



## One Shed (Jan 7, 2014)

Blaze2k2 said:


> That wasn't a match it was a segment. Let's see where the ratings fall when they actually have a match. The actual main event match that week was Hardy vs. Santana.


Because good segments do not draw good ratings? What kind of argument is this?


----------



## Blaze2k2 (Dec 3, 2019)

Lheurch said:


> Why care about what the owner of a company said their company would be? Are you kidding?


He's not giving you the sports based promotion that you wanted so your aim is to continue whining and crying on a wrestling forum thinking as if that somehow is going to change things. It's not it's just a waste of oxygen.




> I do not understand the line of thinking of actually wanting skinny goofs in your main events.


Then you just don't understand it. Am not gonna keep explaining the same thing over and over again.


----------



## Blaze2k2 (Dec 3, 2019)

Lheurch said:


> Because good segments do not draw good ratings? What kind of argument is this?


Not when paired against an actual match. People are going to watch a wrestling match over a segment anyday of the week.


----------



## One Shed (Jan 7, 2014)

Blaze2k2 said:


> He's not giving you the sports based promotion that you wanted so your aim is to continue whining and crying on a wrestling forum thinking as if that somehow is going to change things. It's not it's just a waste of oxygen.


My aim is to want the owner of a company to live up to what he said his company would be. How hard is this? "That restaurant said all their chicken wings would contain only chicken, but some contain beef. Why are you all whining and crying about it? They are not going to change things, just accept it."



Blaze2k2 said:


> Then you just don't understand it. Am not gonna keep explaining the same thing over and over again.


You have said things, but you have not explained anything.


----------



## One Shed (Jan 7, 2014)

Blaze2k2 said:


> Not when paired against an actual match. People are going to watch a wrestling match over a segment anyday of the week.


Congrats, this is your most ignorant post. You are completely ignorant of the details of the highest viewed segments in wrestling history. If what you say was true, no wrestling company would have ever began their show with a promo or talking segment to hook their audience. Do you seriously just not know what the most watched segments ever are? Do you really believe they were all competitive matches?


----------



## Blaze2k2 (Dec 3, 2019)

Lheurch said:


> My aim is to want the owner of a company to live up to what he said his company would be. How hard is this?


He's not going to live up to it. Now what? Do you keep crying about it or do you stop watching? 



> "That restaurant said all their chicken wings would contain only chicken, but some contain beef. Why are you all whining and crying about it? They are not going to change things, just accept it."


And you know what? I respond by leaving and no longer doing business with that company. if they didn't give me what I wanted I move on to a company that will. It's as simple as that.



> You have said things, but you have not explained anything.


just because your comprehension is poor doesn't mean I haven't explained anything.


----------



## JeSeGaN (Jun 5, 2018)

Jericho tanked those ratings as well. Why is no one acknowledging that?


----------



## Blaze2k2 (Dec 3, 2019)

Lheurch said:


> Congrats, this is your most ignorant post. You are completely ignorant of the details of the highest viewed segments in wrestling history. If what you say was true, no wrestling company would have ever began their show with a promo or talking segment to hook their audience. Do you seriously just not know what the most watched segments ever are? Do you really believe they were all competitive matches?


We're talking about segments exclusively in main event spots paired against main event matches not segments to open a damn show.


----------



## $Dolladrew$ (Jun 15, 2020)

Lheurch said:


> Really? WHY? Almost like a serious person carries himself seriously. Imagine if Royce Gracie walked up to his opponent and play kicked him. We may be onto something here.
> 
> 
> Your run on sentences have to stop. "Any and all comers" do not equal trained people. How hard is this point to make? It still is far fetched, that is why you can name the very few instances where it happened off the top of your head.
> ...


Mma is real wrestling isn't no matter how much you believe but to humor you OC would be like anderson Silva dancing around avoiding strikes then bam knockout blow.

Any


Lheurch said:


> Really? WHY? Almost like a serious person carries himself seriously. Imagine if Royce Gracie walked up to his opponent and play kicked him. We may be onto something here.
> 
> 
> Your run on sentences have to stop. "Any and all comers" do not equal trained people. How hard is this point to make? It still is far fetched, that is why you can name the very few instances where it happened off the top of your head.
> ...


Yes a REAL fighter Carrys himself seriously pro wrestling is fake no matter how hard you believe.OC is much more like Anderson Silva or Lyoto Machida where he dips and dodges attacks some fans called their style running away or boring but for the most part they just lured their opponents in and wham fights over.

Lmao any and all comers mean teammates brave enough to go at her ,and yes these are ALL trained professionals.You definitely never trained in a real gym if you think you can just walk in a practice with the real professionals. You have to earn a spot in training otherwise you're stuck with the soccer moms and dads.Its not farfetched it happens EVERY SINGLE DAY you are absolutely and completely wrong you have no idea what you're talking about.Smaller men and woman beat bigger guys on the regular I'm sorry this bursts your bubble but its fact bud.

From my very first post here I was met with criticisms of being an alt account and laughed at because I like AEW,I didnt ratchet up my aggression until poked at so what ever my dude. 

I honestly don't care what your opinions are but you definetly have gone out of your way to be insulting whether you realise it or not.

I don't need to change that's laughable my opinion is mine and valid I LOVE AEW no matter how hard you try you aren't changing that.Im posting because this is how I feel so stay out of my threads if you dont like my opinion period.


----------



## One Shed (Jan 7, 2014)

Blaze2k2 said:


> He's not going to live up to it. Now what? Do you keep crying about it or do you stop watching?


Eventually, just like more and more people have stopped watching.



Blaze2k2 said:


> And you know what? I respond by leaving and no longer doing business with that company. if they didn't give me what I wanted I move on to a company that will. It's as simple as that.


But that is not how you have responded. You have driven to, sat down, and ordered some extra chicken wings with beef and then yelled at anyone who wanted what was actually on the menu.



Blaze2k2 said:


> just because your comprehension is poor doesn't mean I haven't explained anything.


Keep telling yourself that.


----------



## One Shed (Jan 7, 2014)

Blaze2k2 said:


> We're talking about segments exclusively in main event spots paired against main event matches not segments to open a damn show.


And you would still be wrong.


----------



## One Shed (Jan 7, 2014)

$Dolladrew$ said:


> Mma is real wrestling isn't no matter how much you believe but to humor you OC would be like anderson Silva dancing around avoiding strikes then bam knockout blow.
> 
> Any
> 
> ...


When you bother to learn some English and grammar I will respond. I cannot read the rantings of a child. People are not laughing at you because you are an alt account, they are laughing at you because you type like a five year old who does not even know how to use basic spell check.


----------



## Blaze2k2 (Dec 3, 2019)

Lheurch said:


> Eventually, just like more and more people have stopped watching.


Hopefully you stop watching sooner than later.


----------



## One Shed (Jan 7, 2014)

Blaze2k2 said:


> Hopefully you stop watching sooner than later.


It amazes me that a company has so many fans who wish less people watched its product.


----------



## Blaze2k2 (Dec 3, 2019)

Lheurch said:


> It amazes me that a company has so many fans who wish less people watched its product.


Good, you're amazed. Now what?


----------



## Blade Runner (Jan 24, 2012)

JeSeGaN said:


> Jericho tanked those ratings as well. Why is no one acknowledging that?


Chris Jericho isn't The Rock. People aren't going to tune in just because it's him.


If he's working a program with a goof, then chances are it'll hurt his stock rather than the intended elevation of his opponent. When people flip the channel and fall on something that looks and feels Bush league, then chances are they'll keep flipping.


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

Blaze2k2 said:


> Jericho really putting this Cassidy match over hard on this Twitter. Says it's one of the best matches he's had in his career. I was eager to see it before now I'm really eager to see it.


Desperation. A last minute hard-sell. He did the same with Stadium Stampede. 



elidrakefan76 said:


> Jericho is actually putting Slim Cassidy up there with other greats that he has faced in his career like Eddie Guerrero, Triple H, Chris Benoit and so on? I wonder what he has been smoking or snorting.


He’s been drinking a lot, and I genuinely hope he is okay. Sometimes when people who can function and/or do their jobs better than other people develop a problem, it’s overlooked or even seen as part of their process. 



Blaze2k2 said:


> He's only in the main event tonight by circumstance and no he's not going to hurt the company's brand. Stop with that bullshit!


He’s been in the main event segments for a few weeks now, and he has already damaged the brand and Chris Jericho’s brand.


----------



## One Shed (Jan 7, 2014)

Blaze2k2 said:


> Good, you're amazed. Now what?


I will continue to like what I like and push for the same?


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

Lheurch said:


> It amazes me that a company has so many fans who wish less people watched its product.


They hate wrestling. I’m telling you. It sounds counterintuitive or like it makes no sense, but it _always_ comes back to them hating wrestling.


----------



## One Shed (Jan 7, 2014)

The Wood said:


> They hate wrestling. I’m telling you. It sounds counterintuitive or like it makes no sense, but it _always_ comes back to them hating wrestling.


I see it from them more and more. A lot of their posts become more and more telling as you drill them down. Then they tell us WE are the idiots who actually want the product the president of the company promised us. How dare us?


----------



## Blaze2k2 (Dec 3, 2019)

The Wood said:


> They hate wrestling. I’m telling you. It sounds counterintuitive or like it makes no sense, but it _always_ comes back to them hating wrestling.


I love ALL kinds of wrestling.


----------



## El Hammerstone (Jan 11, 2020)

The Wood said:


> They hate wrestling. I’m telling you. It sounds counterintuitive or like it makes no sense, but it _always_ comes back to them hating wrestling.


I thought you were crazy man, but this fact has very quickly revealed itself over time.


----------



## Blaze2k2 (Dec 3, 2019)

Lheurch said:


> I will continue to like what I like and push for the same?


So in other words you're gonna keep beating that dead horse no matter what.


----------



## Blaze2k2 (Dec 3, 2019)

Lheurch said:


> I see it from them more and more. A lot of their posts become more and more telling as you drill them down. Then they tell us WE are the idiots who actually want the product the president of the company promised us. How dare us?


Nobody's saying you're an idiot for wanting Tony Khan to give you what he promised but when it's evident that he's not going to give it to you why continue to bang your head up against the wall? That's all I'm saying.


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

I know it SOUNDS crazy. It seems like I just put words together in some order when I say that as some abstract concept, but they actually come out and directly tell you sometimes. It’s incredible.


----------



## One Shed (Jan 7, 2014)

Blaze2k2 said:


> So in other words you're gonna keep beating that dead horse no matter what.


Because nothing people do could possibly change anything? What totalitarian universe do you live in? "Shut up and enjoy what you are lucky they give you!"


----------



## Dizzie (Jun 22, 2019)

This guy would struggle to be pushed in nxt let alone the main roster, the best he could hope for is a Ellsworth comedy push but here he is on aew being pushed in a upper card feud as a legit threat against the former aew champion.


----------



## Blaze2k2 (Dec 3, 2019)

Dizzie said:


> This guy would struggle to be pushed in nxt let alone the main roster, the best he could hope for is a Ellsworth comedy push but here he is on aew being pushed in a upper card feud as a legit threat against the former aew champion.


A different promotion with a different perspective.

NXT = Serious based promotion
AEW = A hybrid of everything


----------



## yeahbaby! (Jan 27, 2014)

$Dolladrew$ said:


> Mma is real wrestling isn't no matter how much you believe but to humor you OC would be like anderson Silva dancing around avoiding strikes then bam knockout blow.
> 
> Any
> 
> ...


There we have it folks. OC actually compared to Anderson Silva and a karate expert.

Just a suggestion too, perhaps you can just recreate an FYI thread where you lay down (again) your amazing experience in MMA and apparent need to talk down to everyone who disagrees with you about it. Just so you can spare us condescending to people about the sport and trotting out the same old stuff.


----------



## $Dolladrew$ (Jun 15, 2020)

Lheurch said:


> When you bother to learn some English and grammar I will respond. I cannot read the rantings of a child. People are not laughing at you because you are an alt account, they are laughing at you because you type like a five year old who does not even know how to use basic spell check.


Nice cop out lmfao thats the oldest forum BS excuse ......grammar police and spelling nazi comes out LMFAO. 

Like I said you got nothing for me bro move on you're boring and obviously defeated get over it. 😂


----------



## $Dolladrew$ (Jun 15, 2020)

yeahbaby! said:


> There we have it folks. OC actually compared to Anderson Silva and a karate expert.
> 
> Just a suggestion too, perhaps you can just recreate an FYI thread where you lay down (again) your amazing experience in MMA and apparent need to talk down to everyone who disagrees with you about it. Just so you can spare us condescending to people about the sport and trotting out the same old stuff.


Read what I was responding to before going full ignoramus.It might make sense but for someone struggling as hard as you to keep up maybe it's just over your head.

Butthurt much?

Thanks for the laugh bud😂


----------



## yeahbaby! (Jan 27, 2014)

$Dolladrew$ said:


> Read what I was responding to before going full ignoramus.It might make sense but for someone struggling as hard as you to keep up maybe it's just over your head.
> 
> Butthurt much?
> 
> Thanks for the laugh bud😂


I would've thought a journalist would know to put a space after a full stop. Also there are things called commas....

But I am impressed you were able to refrain from giving me an MMA lesson like I've never heard of it. You're learning, well done


----------



## $Dolladrew$ (Jun 15, 2020)

yeahbaby! said:


> I would've thought a journalist would know to put a space after a full stop. Also there are things called commas....
> 
> But I am impressed you were able to refrain from giving me an MMA lesson like I've never heard of it. You're learning, well done


Oh wow I was right the grammar police are coming lol get a life bro. 😂


----------



## yeahbaby! (Jan 27, 2014)

^ Just having a light hearted jab, I'll stop now. I just thought it a bit weird that you were saying you were a journalist with that sort of written english.


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

Orange Cassidy would not be used in NXT. That’s why he was never used in NXT.


----------



## Blaze2k2 (Dec 3, 2019)

Cassidy/Jericho was a hell of a match. I would say Cassidy definitely topped his performance from his match with Pac at Revolution. Solid offense, sold like a champ, and made great comebacks. Jericho did a phenomenal job of putting him over. Cassidy comes out of this looking stronger than ever. This will definitely get four stars from Meltzer. I'll give it 4.25 stars.


----------



## Hephaesteus (Aug 20, 2018)

If uncle dave is stupid enough to give that match anything over 3.5 (and thats being generous) then he'll reveal himself to be the shill we all know that he is


----------



## Blaze2k2 (Dec 3, 2019)

Hephaesteus said:


> If uncle dave is stupid enough to give that match anything over 3.5 (and thats being generous) then he'll reveal himself to be the shill we all know that he is


On Twitter and YouTube the match has received mostly positive reactions. It seems only in this forum it's a gloom of negativity. That's fine though. I know what to expect going forward with this forum.


----------



## Hephaesteus (Aug 20, 2018)

Blaze2k2 said:


> On Twitter and YouTube the match has received mostly positive reactions. It seems only in this forum it's a gloom of negativity. That's fine though. I know what to expect going forward with this forum.


Just because the match exceeded expectations doesnt maoe it a good match. Besides how hard is it to confine oneself to the part of the internet that agrees with their pov?


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

Blaze2k2 said:


> Cassidy/Jericho was a hell of a match. I would say Cassidy definitely topped his performance from his match with Pac at Revolution. Solid offense, sold like a champ, and made great comebacks. Jericho did a phenomenal job of putting him over. Cassidy comes out of this looking stronger than ever. This will definitely get four stars from Meltzer. I'll give it 4.25 stars.


Compared to what? Austin vs. Bret Hart from Survivor Series '96 got 4.5 stars. Are you saying this was almost as good as that? 



Blaze2k2 said:


> On Twitter and YouTube the match has received mostly positive reactions. It seems only in this forum it's a gloom of negativity. That's fine though. I know what to expect going forward with this forum.


Twitter and YouTube are filled with drones who have programmed themselves to say nice things about this shit, because it makes them feel apart of something, instead of seeing the larger picture. Look at how this has tanked in the ratings to get a better overview of what people think.


----------



## Blaze2k2 (Dec 3, 2019)

Hephaesteus said:


> Just because the match exceeded expectations doesnt maoe it a good match. Besides how hard is it to confine oneself to the part of the internet that agrees with their pov?


Doom and gloom. It's okay though. I know what to expect now. Next week's Dynamite is automatically not going to be a good show on these forums. The week after that it's automatically not going to be a good show on these forums and so on and so on. When I come into these forums from now on I will always expect the worst. It is what it is.


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

Blaze2k2 said:


> Doom and gloom. It's okay though. I know what to expect now. Next week's Dynamite is automatically not going to be a good show on these forums. The week after that it's automatically not going to be a good show on these forums and so on and so on. When I come into these forums from now on I will always expect the worst. It is what it is.


Stop making AEW out to be unfairly smeared on here. Go into the weekly discussion. People gave it a chance and responded to what they actually did. You are sticking your fingers in your ears because it doesn't paint the rosy narrative you like. How dare people not lick the same boot as you?


----------



## One Shed (Jan 7, 2014)

Hephaesteus said:


> Doom and gloom. It's okay though. I know what to expect now. Next week's Dynamite is automatically not going to be a good show on these forums. The week after that it's automatically not going to be a good show on these forums and so on and so on. When I come into these forums from now on I will always expect the worst. It is what it is.


Weird, because last week's show was praised by just about everyone. Amazing that people like good shows.


----------



## Blaze2k2 (Dec 3, 2019)

The Wood said:


> Compared to what? Austin vs. Bret Hart from Survivor Series '96 got 4.5 stars. Are you saying this was almost as good as that?


You would compare it to other matches in that 4.00 - 4.25 range. 




> Twitter and YouTube are filled with drones who have programmed themselves to say nice things about this shit, because it makes them feel apart of something, instead of seeing the larger picture. Look at how this has tanked in the ratings to get a better overview of what people think.


Let's see what the rating is tomorrow on this match and the show overall.


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

Blaze2k2 said:


> You would compare it to other matches in that 4.00 - 4.25 range.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What other matches would they be? Give me some examples, since you love rating matches so much. 

If it comes back horrible, will you admit that this thing is a massive failure and that your apparent taste in wrestling is not good for it?


----------



## Hephaesteus (Aug 20, 2018)

Blaze2k2 said:


> Doom and gloom. It's okay though. I know what to expect now. Next week's Dynamite is automatically not going to be a good show on these forums. The week after that it's automatically not going to be a good show on these forums and so on and so on. When I come into these forums from now on I will always expect the worst. It is what it is.


I literally just said the match was better than expected and gave it an above average grade, how is that doom and gloom? If anybody's doom and gloom is the person throwing a fit because everybody wont participate in group think and overrate a match just because it wasnt a bag of shit.


----------



## Blaze2k2 (Dec 3, 2019)

The Wood said:


> What other matches would they be? Give me some examples, since you love rating matches so much.


Here are some examples of 4.25 star matches from last year.

WWE SummerSlam '19
Seth Rollins vs Brock Lesnar

NJPW G1 Climax 2019 - Day 18
Jay White vs Tetsuya Naito

NJPW Dominion 2019
Kazuchika Okada vs Chris Jericho

Impact Wrestling Slammiversary XVII
Sami Callihan vs Tessa Blanchard

EVOLVE 10th Anniversary Show
Matt Riddle vs Drew Gulak

Keep in mind the Cassidy/Jericho match hasn't been officially rated yet. This is just the rating I'm giving it.



> If it comes back horrible, will you admit that this thing is a massive failure and that your apparent taste in wrestling is not good for it?


I've already gone on record saying I don't believe it's going to beat Cole/Lee because of it being a winner take all title match.


----------



## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

Blaze2k2 said:


> On Twitter and YouTube the match has received mostly positive reactions. It seems only in this forum it's a gloom of negativity. That's fine though. I know what to expect going forward with this forum.


You are aware that a lot of the people on Twitter, YouTube, Reddit etc are guys like yourself who will overlook all the bad for the small bits of good AEW produces every week, right? TNA used to have the exact same kind of fanbase who were so anti WWE and so pro TNA that they'd regularly be served dog shit every week but they'd smile and eat it because it was TNA.


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

Blaze2k2 said:


> Here are some examples of 4.25 star matches from last year.
> 
> WWE SummerSlam '19
> Seth Rollins vs Brock Lesnar
> ...


How does Jericho/Cassidy compare to Jericho/Okada? 

I thought we were in the era where kayfabe is dead. How would a double title match help anything if kayfabe is dead?


----------



## Blaze2k2 (Dec 3, 2019)

The Wood said:


> How does Jericho/Cassidy compare to Jericho/Okada?


It compares pretty well in my opinion. Jericho/Okada had too much brawling for my tastes



> I thought we were in the era where kayfabe is dead. How would a double title match help anything if kayfabe is dead?


People just like watching title matches over non title matches kayfabed or not. It just looks more attractive on paper.


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

Blaze2k2 said:


> It compares pretty well in my opinion. Jericho/Okada had too much brawling for my tastes
> 
> 
> 
> People just like watching title matches over non title matches kayfabed or not. *It just looks more attractive on paper.*


Why?


----------



## Blaze2k2 (Dec 3, 2019)

Chip Chipperson said:


> You are aware that a lot of the people on Twitter, YouTube, Reddit etc are guys like yourself who will overlook all the bad for the small bits of good AEW produces every week, right?


Small bits of good? Wow! Like I said, gloom and Doom.



> TNA used to have the exact same kind of fanbase who were so anti WWE and so pro TNA that they'd regularly be served dog shit every week but they'd smile and eat it because it was TNA.


I genuinely like the product and don't believe I'm being served dog shit every week but hey if Chip says that's the way it is it must be absolute fact.


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

Just because people don't like it as much as you doesn't mean it is gloom and doom. That's ironically very egocentric of you. 

You're allowed to like the product, but will you admit that it is probably largely interpreted as dog shit if the rating comes back horrible?


----------



## Blaze2k2 (Dec 3, 2019)

The Wood said:


> You're allowed to like the product, but will you admit that it is probably largely interpreted as dog shit if the rating comes back horrible?


You're really putting all those eggs in that ratings basket aren't you. I already told you I don't think it's going to win in the ratings for the reason I already stated.


----------



## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

The Wood said:


> Just because people don't like it as much as you doesn't mean it is gloom and doom. That's ironically very egocentric of you.
> 
> You're allowed to like the product, but will you admit that it is probably largely interpreted as dog shit if the rating comes back horrible?


They've already got their excuses lined up for this week. "Ehhh the results were spoiled" or "Ehhhh COVID-19" or "Ehhhh the news" or "Ehhhh NXT had a more enticing main event"

The real talk will come a few weeks from now when AEW stops giving big matches away for free on TV and gets back into the routine of doing week to week TV again. Can they magically turn things around and save their TV show or will NXT just run rampant?


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

Blaze2k2 said:


> You're really putting all those eggs in that ratings basket aren't you. I already told you I don't think it's going to win in the ratings for the reason I already stated.


No, I keep bringing it up because you keep dismissing criticisms like this shit isn't turning people off when it actually quite literally is.


----------



## Cult03 (Oct 31, 2016)

Blaze2k2 said:


> That's not my definition of it nor what I mean. Non kayfabe means we are no longer trying to present something fake as real and therefore no longer follow the logical rules assigned to that presentation. We are now presenting something fake as fake to where no logical rules apply. In this presentation you can have super powers like Hulk Hogan's "Hulking Up" or supernatural abilities like the Undertaker. You can teleport. You don't have to sell injuries for longer than 10 seconds. You can do whatever highspot you feel no matter your size. You can have over the top comedy, hardcore death matches, you name it. This is what I mean by non kayfabe. The illusion is gone.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You don't get to change word definitions just because you feel like it. Unfortunately that's not how language works. 

So we are in the 'Everything Is Random Era'? Wonderful.


----------



## CM Buck (Sep 2, 2012)

Orange Cassidy absolutely killed it tonight. Made old man Jericho look like a million bucks. Guess he doesn't need weapons to have a good match. I forgot he could actually wrestle in his old age.

Good job oc


----------



## NathanMayberry (Oct 11, 2019)

Blaze2k2 said:


> On Twitter and YouTube the match has received mostly positive reactions. It seems only in this forum it's a gloom of negativity. That's fine though. I know what to expect going forward with this forum.


When AEw hit their record low ratings a couple of weeks ago following OC Jericho brawling, was there negative posts about it on Youtube or Twitter?


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

It's like asking a pop star's fan club if their lip-synced performance they showed up trashed to was great or not.


----------



## TheDraw (Jun 27, 2019)

I just can't take a skinny guy in ripped up jeans with his hands in his pockets seriously. Doesn't matter how good the match is, which it wasn't, it just looks like crap on TV and makes Jericho look like a joke.


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

It doesn’t make ANY sense. If Jason Voorhees was coming at you in a horror movie, would you act like that? It completely alters the genre of what you’re doing. And then the guy actually beats up Jason “when he gets going.”


----------



## Wolf Mark (Jun 5, 2020)

Got to admit, he really impressed me last night. Great match between him and Jericho.


----------



## Cult03 (Oct 31, 2016)

Honestly he carried Jericho to a great match. Jericho has been carried through some good matches recently with Kenny and Okada and Naito but this one was probably the best. Was more too the point than those other matches, not a lot of wasted time. I almost forgot one of my favourite wrestlers ever was out there because OC just draws you in. This man has it all! I'd say he's going to be a star if he wasn't already. He's a made man at this point. Put the title on him. Five fucking stars and some!


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

If you had a time machine and could put Orange Cassidy against any wrestler from history, who would it be?

Try not to go with the obvious Attitude era picks. Steve Austin and The Rock are obvious choices. Kurt Angle would be a dream match. And a battle of the Sweet Chin Musics between the rebels in Cassidy and Shawn Michaels writes itself. But try to get more creative:

How about Buddy Rogers? Can you imagine the guy who invented sequences coming up against Cassidy? I do question if Cassidy could have carried the WWWF Title, simply because Bruno attracted quite the audience as the ethnic champion. But instead of Bob Backlund to win the belt from Graham? Think about that. Like Backlund had Bruno on his cards to prop him up, after Cassidy passed the belt to Sheik, Hogan could have had Cassidy on his cards to help him out. Could you imagine Cassidy in the Steamboat spot at WrestleMania III?

What about the real shoot style wrestlers? Gotch and Hodge? Maybe over the Junior Heavyweight Title with Hodge?

I’ve got this scenario in my head though — when the Von Erich family got hit with all those tragedies, WCCW really could have used someone from outside to come in and help out. What if Orange Cassidy became the babyface replacement for the Von Erich boys? Do you think Dallas could have kept running for at least a few more years?

Just some food for thought.


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

Double post, but here’s a follow-up question:

You can only do one Hell in a Cell Match with Orange Cassidy against a legend of the match. He only gets to walk into hell with his hands in his pockets once. Who does he face?

Undertaker
Shawn Michaels
Mankind
Triple H
Cactus Jack 

He’s obviously a babyface, so I’m going Triple H with this. It would be especially over if Cassidy disrespects him because he’s a McMahon.


----------



## Cult03 (Oct 31, 2016)

The Wood said:


> If you had a time machine and could put Orange Cassidy against any wrestler from history, who would it be?
> 
> Try not to go with the obvious Attitude era picks. Steve Austin and The Rock are obvious choices. Kurt Angle would be a dream match. And a battle of the Sweet Chin Musics between the rebels in Cassidy and Shawn Michaels writes itself. But try to get more creative:
> 
> ...


I reckon he would have put on some absolute classics with Bruiser Brody, New Jack, JBL, Benoit, Stan Hansen and Vader. I feel like his style works well with those stiff workers and I would have loved to see their reactions to his obvious charisma.


----------



## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

Ooooh Bruiser Brody and Orange Cassidy. Excellent suggestion!

Maybe I'm biased here but what about the legendary Harley Race exchanging stiff right hands in his prime with a prime OC for the NWA World Heavyweight Title? Maybe even a sneaky 2-3 month run with the gold?


----------



## Cult03 (Oct 31, 2016)

Chip Chipperson said:


> Ooooh Bruiser Brody and Orange Cassidy. Excellent suggestion!
> 
> Maybe I'm biased here but what about the legendary Harley Race exchanging stiff right hands in his prime with a prime OC for the NWA World Heavyweight Title? Maybe even a sneaky 2-3 month run with the gold?


He would have been champ around the world back in the day. He has elements of Lucha Libre about him that would have been huge in Mexico. OC V Mil Mascaras or Dos Caras would have been amazing. He would have had instant classics with Misawa in Japan.


----------



## Cult03 (Oct 31, 2016)

The Wood said:


> Double post, but here’s a follow-up question:
> 
> You can only do one Hell in a Cell Match with Orange Cassidy against a legend of the match. He only gets to walk into hell with his hands in his pockets once. Who does he face?
> 
> ...


At this point of time I'd have him on par with a young Shawn Michaels and I think their styles would suit each other.


----------



## One Shed (Jan 7, 2014)

Cult03 said:


> At this point of time I'd have him on par with a young Shawn Michaels and I think their styles would suit each other.


What do you think the reaction would have been like when he slammed Andrew with at least one hand in his pockets?


----------



## Rozzop (Aug 26, 2019)

I love Orange Cassidy. He has an aura of The Rock and his gimmick is unique. If he was a part of the attitude era he would be multi time champ by now. 

It got me thinking. How would you feel if he was put in a program with an armless wrestler? 

We've seen it with Zach Gowan. 

Imagine the visual of OC with his hands in his pockets and the armless wrestler doing suicide dives on each other. Would be a 3 star match minimum. 

It would get more eyeballs on AEW and open up the possibility of new sponsership deals.


----------



## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

Rozzop said:


> I love Orange Cassidy. He has an aura of The Rock and his gimmick is unique. If he was a part of the attitude era he would be multi time champ by now.
> 
> It got me thinking. How would you feel if he was put in a program with an armless wrestler?
> 
> ...


Tony Khan, is that you? Only a genius such as yourself could come up with such an idea.


----------



## One Shed (Jan 7, 2014)

Chip Chipperson said:


> Tony Khan, is that you? Only a genius such as yourself could come up with such an idea.


Why stop there? Make a gimmick match where OC has to wear tights and not jeans to really throw off his game. Where is he going to put his hands?!? The hilarity!


----------



## elidrakefan76 (Jul 23, 2018)

Rozzop said:


> I love Orange Cassidy. He has an aura of The Rock and his gimmick is unique. If he was a part of the attitude era he would be multi time champ by now.
> 
> It got me thinking. How would you feel if he was put in a program with an armless wrestler?
> 
> ...


Orange Cassidy and The Rock shouldn't be mentioned in the same sentence. Not sure where you get that. Cassidy is unique, I'll give him that, but we haven't even heard him speak yet and cut a promo on television. I heard him talk in one of Brandi Rhodes' youtube cooking videos where he was a guest and he sounds very ordinary.


----------



## Hephaesteus (Aug 20, 2018)

The Wood said:


> If you had a time machine and could put Orange Cassidy against any wrestler from history, who would it be?
> 
> Try not to go with the obvious Attitude era picks. Steve Austin and The Rock are obvious choices. Kurt Angle would be a dream match. And a battle of the Sweet Chin Musics between the rebels in Cassidy and Shawn Michaels writes itself. But try to get more creative:
> 
> ...


id go for Funk. You know Funk would love a gimmick like that.


----------



## NathanMayberry (Oct 11, 2019)

He should get driven to the ring by his mom, who drives with her hands in her pockets. 


That would be hilarious and refreshing!


----------



## Wolf Mark (Jun 5, 2020)

He's no Steamboat but really for a relatively new talent for a mainstream audience to be able to pull that with Jericho, it was well done. It's not because we praise this that OC is comparable to the greats. It's more like something like when Shelton Benjamin wrestled HBK.


----------



## NathanMayberry (Oct 11, 2019)

Wolf Mark said:


> He's no Steamboat but really for a relatively new talent for a mainstream audience to be able to pull that with Jericho, it was well done. It's not because we praise this that OC is comparable to the greats. It's more like something like when Shelton Benjamin wrestled HBK.


When in Shelton's career was he made to look like a joke that shouldn't be taken seriously before facing HBK?


----------



## Wolf Mark (Jun 5, 2020)

NathanMayberry said:


> When in Shelton's career was he made to look like a joke that shouldn't be taken seriously before facing HBK?


Well I was talking more in the concept of a midcard act facing a serious challenge, a top guy.


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

Not even Shelton Benjamin was driven to the ring by his Momma!


----------



## NathanMayberry (Oct 11, 2019)

Wolf Mark said:


> Well I was talking more in the concept of a midcard act facing a serious challenge, a top guy.


Orange Cassidy is more of a comedy act than a midcard one. A midcard act tries to win a ladder match that guarantees a world title opportunity. Comedy acts comes into a match not knowing its purpose or how to climb a ladder.


----------



## elidrakefan76 (Jul 23, 2018)

Cassidy just isn't believable. This week on Dark they had him knock out and then pin a big, jacked up black guy with one punch. In real life, that punch would have likely hurt the guy as much as his little sister hitting him.


----------



## $Dolladrew$ (Jun 15, 2020)

elidrakefan76 said:


> Cassidy just isn't believable. This week on Dark they had him knock out and then pin a 300 lb, muscular black guy with one punch. In real life, that punch would have likely hurt the guy as much as his little sister hitting him.



Anyone of any size can be knocked out when hit in the right spot it's been proven over and over in every combat sport and in the streets.


----------



## Swan-San (May 25, 2019)

elidrakefan76 said:


> Cassidy just isn't believable. This week on Dark they had him knock out and then pin a 300 lb, muscular black guy with one punch. In real life, that punch would have likely hurt the guy as much as his little sister hitting him.


That was so shit I can't even cope


----------



## elidrakefan76 (Jul 23, 2018)

$Dolladrew$ said:


> Anyone of any size can be knocked out when hit in the right spot it's been proven over and over in every combat sport and in the streets.


There's no way that a guy Cassidy's size (150/160 lbs) could knock out a guy the size of his opponent on Dark with one punch. Go back and watch the Dark highlights on youtube. Even a punch from Floyd Mayweather who goes about 150 lbs himself wouldn't be able to knock that guy out. A punch in the right spot might make a guy like him stagger a bit but it wouldn't knock him out cold.


----------



## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

elidrakefan76 said:


> Cassidy just isn't believable. This week on Dark they had him knock out and then pin a 300 lb, muscular black guy with one punch. In real life, that punch would have likely hurt the guy as much as his little sister hitting him.


Just went back and checked it. Hobbs has the physique of an athlete (Most likely a football player) and you are right in that he's probably close to double OC's weight.

OC proceeds to beat him in under 30 seconds. This is entirely the problem with AEW.


----------



## elidrakefan76 (Jul 23, 2018)

Chip Chipperson said:


> Just went back and checked it. Hobbs has the physique of an athlete (Most likely a football player) and you are right in that he's probably close to double OC's weight.
> 
> OC proceeds to beat him in under 30 seconds. This is entirely the problem with AEW.


We all know that Cassidy was going to go over but as I mentioned, to have him knock him out with one punch is ridiculous. Having him win with some type of a roll-up/small package would have been a lot more believable.


----------



## $Dolladrew$ (Jun 15, 2020)

elidrakefan76 said:


> There's no way that a guy Cassidy's size (150/160 lbs) could knock out a guy the size of his opponent on Dark with one punch. Go back and watch the Dark highlights on youtube. Even a punch from Floyd Mayweather who goes about 150 lbs himself wouldn't be able to knock that guy out. A punch in the right spot might make a guy like him stagger a bit but it wouldn't knock him out cold.


I watched it on dark

You're wrong ANYONE can be knocked out one hitter quitter on the right spot even a 300lb tub lol


----------



## Blade Runner (Jan 24, 2012)

$Dolladrew$ said:


> Anyone of any size can be knocked out when hit in the right spot it's been proven over and over in every combat sport and in the streets.


Yeah but Orange Cassidy punches like a girl. 

There's a world of difference between Bruce Lee doing it, and some geek that probably never stepped in a dojo unless there was a trampoline in it.


----------



## $Dolladrew$ (Jun 15, 2020)

elidrakefan76 said:


> We all know that Cassidy was going to go over but as I mentioned, to have him knock him out with one punch is ridiculous. Having him win with some type of a roll-up/small package would have been a lot more believable.


Its obvious they were selling OC as tuned in and ready to go generally he woulda toyed around flipping and dodging then get beat down then the eventual pin finish.

This way it sold him as not toying around and it sold his finisher as being able to drop much larger opponents.


----------



## $Dolladrew$ (Jun 15, 2020)

That geek probably knocks you cold on under 10 secs lol.


----------



## Blade Runner (Jan 24, 2012)

$Dolladrew$ said:


> That geek probably knocks you cold on under 10 secs lol.


If his shoot punches look like his worked ones, then I seriously doubt that.


----------



## elidrakefan76 (Jul 23, 2018)

KYRA BATARA said:


> *Yeah but Orange Cassidy punches like a girl.*
> 
> There's a world of difference between Bruce Lee doing it, and some geek that probably never stepped in a dojo unless there was a trampoline in it.


Not to mention that Cassidy's hands look smaller than Donald Trump's, lol. DollaDrew, I don't care what you say. It is not believable for a guy like Cassidy with his hand size to knock out a guy that size with one punch. Not saying that black guy was all muscle but he was a big guy and looked like he could have been a football defensive end.


----------



## $Dolladrew$ (Jun 15, 2020)

KYRA BATARA said:


> If his shoot punches look like his worked ones, then I seriously doubt that.


Remember you're judging a fake fighter on a worked match.....you're not going to take away much actual value from it.


----------



## elidrakefan76 (Jul 23, 2018)

$Dolladrew$ said:


> That geek probably knocks you cold on under 10 secs lol.


No way. I would first remove Cassidy's sunglasses, step on them and then proceed to snap that twig in half. lol. I'm about 5'10" (Cassidy's height) but I'm 207 lbs so not that small and I work out.


----------



## NathanMayberry (Oct 11, 2019)

lol the booking in this company just gets dumber and dumber..

I bet you guys would make excuses if Marko Stunt knocked out a guy twice his size with a move that isn't even impactful.


----------



## ECFuckinW (Jun 29, 2020)

NathanMayberry said:


> lol the booking in this company just gets dumber and dumber..
> 
> I bet you guys would make excuses if Marko Stunt knocked out a guy twice his size with a move that isn't even impactful.


Marko is a tall midget while OC is the size of a featherweight 145 or lightweight 155 both of which can definetly knock guys out.


----------



## elidrakefan76 (Jul 23, 2018)

I admit that Cassidy's theme music is growing on me. It's a pretty catchy tune.


----------



## ECFuckinW (Jun 29, 2020)

elidrakefan76 said:


> No way. I would first remove Cassidy's sunglasses, step on them and then proceed to snap that twig in half. lol. I'm about 5'10" (Cassidy's height) but I'm 207 lbs so not that small and I work out.


Mmmmmmhmmmm sure you would,more like you'd ask for an autograph and take a picture for the gram.😂


----------



## elidrakefan76 (Jul 23, 2018)

ECFuckinW said:


> Mmmmmmhmmmm sure you would,more like you'd ask for an autograph and take a picture for the gram.😂


Nope. Cassidy may be on national television but that doesn't mean that I need to take him seriously and I don't. I don't collect autographs from geeks.

That Will Hobbs guy that Cassidy beat on Dark was probably furious and thinking to himself: "Man, if this shit was real I would destroy that skinny punk." lol


----------



## NathanMayberry (Oct 11, 2019)

ECFuckinW said:


> Marko is a tall midget while OC is the size of a featherweight 145 or lightweight 155 both of which can definetly knock guys out.


lol cool story im sure thats exactly what people want to see


----------



## elidrakefan76 (Jul 23, 2018)

Marko vs. Orange Cassidy in a Brawl for All-type shoot fight on the next Dynamite. Book it.


----------



## ECFuckinW (Jun 29, 2020)

elidrakefan76 said:


> Nope. Cassidy may be on national television but that doesn't mean that I need to take him seriously and I don't. I don't collect autographs from geeks.
> 
> That Will Hobbs guy that Cassidy beat on Dark was probably furious and thinking to himself: "Man, if this shit was real I would destroy that skinny punk." lol


That will hobbs guy was more likely grateful for the opportunity and happy to do whatever,remember he agreed to the finish.


----------



## elidrakefan76 (Jul 23, 2018)

ECFuckinW said:


> That will hobbs guy was more likely grateful for the opportunity and happy to do whatever,remember he agreed to the finish.


I'm guessing they paid Hobbs pretty well for that appearance for him to agree to get knocked out by someone half his size and with small hands to boot.


----------



## ECFuckinW (Jun 29, 2020)

elidrakefan76 said:


> I'm guessing they paid Hobbs pretty well for that appearance for him to agree to get knocked out by someone half his size and with small hands to boot.


Do you have a hand fetish?gross 

Hobbs is a pretty much unknown guy from the bay area I actually seen him before in a few local shows hes pretty good but being on dark is a great exposure for him and leads to possible return appearances. 

Remember matches are predetermined my man hobbs was perfectly fine with being knocked out by a guy about to main event with Jericho the next day.


----------



## elidrakefan76 (Jul 23, 2018)

ECFuckinW said:


> Do you have a hand fetish?gross
> 
> Hobbs is a pretty much unknown guy from the bay area I actually seen him before in a few local shows hes pretty good but being on dark is a great exposure for him and leads to possible return appearances.
> 
> Remember matches are predetermined my man hobbs was perfectly fine with being knocked out by a guy about to main event with Jericho the next day.


Nope, no hands fetish. I just tend to look at the size of fighters' or wrestlers' hands to gauge if it is really believable for them to knock out people a lot bigger.


----------



## $Dolladrew$ (Jun 15, 2020)

NathanMayberry said:


> lol cool story im sure thats exactly what people want to see


In OCs case yes it put over his finisher so moving forward he can get an upset or two over bigger guys.Not every little guy should be killing huge guys but fir this instance it worked.


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

675,000 viewers. Folks who defend Orange Cassidy are finding themselves in smaller and smaller company.


----------



## $Dolladrew$ (Jun 15, 2020)

elidrakefan76 said:


> Nope, no hands fetish. I just tend to look at the size of fighters' or wrestlers' hands to gauge if it is really believable for them to knock out people a lot bigger.



Since when does hand size dictate knockout power?


----------



## $Dolladrew$ (Jun 15, 2020)

That jericho and OC match was great it kept me guessing and was a good performance.


----------



## Cult03 (Oct 31, 2016)

The Wood said:


> 675,000 viewers. Folks who defend Orange Cassidy are finding themselves in smaller and smaller company.


We are going to get louder and louder. OC is the future and just like The Rock he's starting off being panned by the fans. This will change


----------



## Cult03 (Oct 31, 2016)

Will Hobbs was someone I have been speaking about with the Angry Aussies FT. El Hammerstone and Bdon for a while now. The rub he's received from being in the ring with OC will be incredible for him. His independent asking price will have risen dramatically and I have no doubt he will be more popular as the years go on.


----------



## $Dolladrew$ (Jun 15, 2020)

Cult03 said:


> We are going to get louder and louder. OC is the future and just like The Rock he's starting off being panned by the fans. This will change


How did you like the OC and Jericho match?


----------



## Cult03 (Oct 31, 2016)

$Dolladrew$ said:


> How did you like the OC and Jericho match?


I'm on school holidays at the moment (I'm a teacher) so I was actually able to sit down and watch Dynamite live. I legitimately fell asleep pretty early on and woke up as this match started and it kept me awake throughout it's entirety. OC carried Jericho to a 4.25 star match and it earned every single fictional Meltzer star it got. OC is showing his potential as a serious competitor and I think he will keep many people awake for years to come


----------



## $Dolladrew$ (Jun 15, 2020)

Cult03 said:


> I'm on school holidays at the moment (I'm a teacher) so I was actually able to sit down and watch Dynamite live. I legitimately fell asleep pretty early on and woke up as this match started and it kept me awake throughout it's entirety. OC carried Jericho to a 4.25 star match and it earned every single fictional Meltzer star it got. OC is showing his potential as a serious competitor and I think he will keep many people awake for years to come


Ok I was genuinely confused as I thought you may be sarcastic lol.I agree that match was great I thought OC would win a few times especially after the shin kicks to super kick holy shit.

People were a bit upset over hobbs getting squashed but it was a great way to sell OC as dialed in for the Jericho match and to sell his finisher as being able to takeout much bigger guys.


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

Did Dave really give the match 4.25 stars? That's got to be a joke. He's showing Orange Cassidy level restraint by only giving it that much!


----------



## JeSeGaN (Jun 5, 2018)

$Dolladrew$ said:


> People were a bit upset over hobbs getting squashed but it was a great way to sell OC as dialed in for the Jericho match and to sell his finisher as being able to takeout much bigger guys.


Hm, it wasn't really believable to me. Honestly, was it believable to you? 

Sure it's always a suspension of disbelief, but sometimes it kinda too much.


----------



## $Dolladrew$ (Jun 15, 2020)

JeSeGaN said:


> Hm, it wasn't really believable to me. Honestly, was it believable to you?
> 
> Sure it's always a suspension of disbelief, but sometimes it kinda too much.


Yeah as I explained already I was fine with it.


----------



## Wolf Mark (Jun 5, 2020)

NathanMayberry said:


> Orange Cassidy is more of a comedy act than a midcard one. A midcard act tries to win a ladder match that guarantees a world title opportunity. Comedy acts comes into a match not knowing its purpose or how to climb a ladder.


But this is not exactly the case, he is not just a comedy act. He's not Disco Inferno or Shark Boy. There is that to it but more and more he kept showing determination and doing more cool shit. He is exactly the kind of character that you put in a situation to create an upset that may lead to more things down the line. 

He just should not main event anything at this point.


----------



## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

elidrakefan76 said:


> I'm guessing they paid Hobbs pretty well for that appearance for him to agree to get knocked out by someone half his size and with small hands to boot.


Probably a couple hundred bucks maximum and "exposure". Feel bad for the guy though because if he's half smart he wouldn't have agreed in advance to be knocked out by Cassidy in 15 seconds.


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

Wolf Mark said:


> But this is not exactly the case, he is not just a comedy act. He's not Disco Inferno or Shark Boy. There is that to it but more and more he kept showing determination and doing more cool shit. He is exactly the kind of character that you put in a situation to create an upset that may lead to more things down the line.
> 
> He just should not main event anything at this point.


Disco Inferno and Shark Boy are both more believable acts than Orange Cassidy. Well, I didn’t see that much of SB, but he at least worked things like a contest, right? He just wore the suit.


----------



## Mercian (Jun 26, 2020)

Never saw Bruiser Brody or Stan Hansen with there hands in their pockets tapping there opponents shins


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

Stan Hansen is probably kicking himself (lightly) that he didn't think of it. Imagine how much over his matches with Toshiaki Kawada would have been with that spot in there.


----------



## Piers (Sep 1, 2015)

He's entertaining. Unlike 95% of the WWE roster.


----------



## Dizzie (Jun 22, 2019)

I think cassidy has sold himself short by leaning on being some chikara like comedy act, take away that silliness that makes it hard to take his matches and feuds seriously and you have a decent talent.


----------



## elidrakefan76 (Jul 23, 2018)

Cassidy is a mid-card comedy act. He has no business in the main event scene/world title picture. If he somehow wins the world title, AEW will be viewed as a laughingstock.


----------



## NXT Only (Apr 3, 2016)

elidrakefan76 said:


> Cassidy is a mid-card comedy act. He has no business in the main event scene/world title picture. If he somehow wins the world title, AEW will be viewed as a laughingstock.


He won’t. Requires too much hard work.


----------



## ECFuckinW (Jun 29, 2020)

NXT Only said:


> He won’t. Requires too much hard work.


Hes not going to be world champion but he will be very popular and I could see a short tnt title run as acceptable. If he refines his character who knows.


----------



## ECFuckinW (Jun 29, 2020)

Dizzie said:


> I think cassidy has sold himself short by leaning on being some chikara like comedy act, take away that silliness that makes it hard to take his matches and feuds seriously and you have a decent talent.


Watch him as JC Ryder or Fire ant if u wanna see non OC style.


----------



## NXT Only (Apr 3, 2016)

ECFuckinW said:


> Hes not going to be world champion but he will be very popular and I could see a short tnt title run as acceptable. If he refines his character who knows.


TNT title run or tag title run would be cool. He’s one of those guys who doesn’t need a belt tho.


----------



## elidrakefan76 (Jul 23, 2018)

NXT Only said:


> TNT title run or tag title run would be cool. He’s one of those guys who doesn’t need a belt tho.


Him holding the TNT title or a tag title run is probably his ceiling unless he puts on a lot more weight/muscle.


----------



## RapShepard (Jun 20, 2014)

The Wood said:


> Compared to what? Austin vs. Bret Hart from Survivor Series '96 got 4.5 stars. Are you saying this was almost as good as that?


While rating stuff is fun to do. It makes you wonder if rating night/week of is a useless concept. How many TV matches have got such high ratings that ultimately are forgotten in a month or two.


----------



## NathanMayberry (Oct 11, 2019)

RapShepard said:


> While rating stuff is fun to do. It makes you wonder if rating night/week of is a useless concept. How many TV matches have got such high ratings that ultimately are forgotten in a month or two.


Pretty every match that Mellzer has broken his rating scale for has already been forgotten. 

Remember he rated Andre vs Hulk as negative stars yet 30 + years later it is remembered more than the 5/6/7 star matches Meltzer rated that happened <2/3 years ago, even by people who weren't even alive when the match happened.


----------



## Bubbly (Oct 10, 2019)

I think he has to 'go away' for a little while now. He's been overexposed in a position that is too high on the card and you run the risk of fans turning on him. Keep him fresh and let us enjoy him for what he is. 

I didn't care for him at first, then he grew on me, but this feud with Jericho has made me sour on him a bit because of the ridiculousness of it all.


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