# Jim Ross says AEW still has too many flips and flops.



## AEWMoxley (May 26, 2019)

*Re: Jim Ross says AEW still has to many flips and flops.*

He's right.

Also, more live promos, please.


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## Undertaker23RKO (Jun 11, 2011)

*Re: Jim Ross says AEW still has to many flips and flops.*

Smart man.


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## llj (Feb 22, 2018)

*Re: Jim Ross says AEW still has to many flips and flops.*

He has a point, but another problem in AEW right now is that JR also gets into the habit of breaking kayfabe when commentating these days. Talking about psychology during a match...UMMM hello? Jim? You're on TV again? You're supposed to pretend they're actually fighting?


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## SHIVV-EAUX-EMME-GEEE (Sep 12, 2013)

*Re: Jim Ross says AEW still has to many flips and flops.*

They've only done three live tv shows. There will be hits and misses. It's part of their learning curve.


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## UniversalGleam (Jan 30, 2017)

*Re: Jim Ross says AEW still has to many flips and flops.*



llj said:


> He has a point, but another problem in AEW right now is that JR also gets into the habit of breaking kayfabe when commentating these days. Talking about psychology during a match...UMMM hello? Jim? You're on TV again? You're supposed to pretend they're actually fighting?


I'm not usually open with criticising Jim Ross these days due to the crap he has been through. I only wish him some kind of happiness. I can only admire him for calling that Wrestlemania match between taker and roman after his wife passed away. 

Saying that, Jim certainly isnt the commentator that he was. Its just the reality.


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## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

*Re: Jim Ross says AEW still has to many flips and flops.*

They have just the right amount of flip flops IMO - less toned down that the PPVs between Bucks and Lucha - but still enough to not be boring


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## Taroostyles (Apr 1, 2007)

*Re: Jim Ross says AEW still has to many flips and flops.*

People said the same thing about the WCW cruiserweights before they took off and carried that program. 

There will always be people who feel this way, which is fine. To me in 3 weeks the only match that was overly spotty to a crazy extent was PP/Bucks but that was also probably the best match in the 1st 3 weeks of Dynamite. 

Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesnt.


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## roadkill_ (Jan 28, 2010)

*Re: Jim Ross says AEW still has to many flips and flops.*



Taroostyles said:


> *People said the same thing about the WCW cruiserweights before they took off and carried that program. *
> 
> There will always be people who feel this way, which is fine. To me in 3 weeks the only match that was overly spotty to a crazy extent was PP/Bucks but that was also probably the best match in the 1st 3 weeks of Dynamite.
> 
> Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesnt.


This is just plain false.


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## SayWhatAgain! (Jul 25, 2016)

*Re: Jim Ross says AEW still has to many flips and flops.*

More promo's and storytelling.


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## InexorableJourney (Sep 10, 2016)

*Re: Jim Ross says AEW still has to many flips and flops.*

JR obviously misses calling chinlocks.


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## Dave Santos (Sep 27, 2016)

*Re: Jim Ross says AEW still has to many flips and flops.*



llj said:


> He has a point, but another problem in AEW right now is that JR also gets into the habit of breaking kayfabe when commentating these days. Talking about psychology during a match...UMMM hello? Jim? You're on TV again? You're supposed to pretend they're actually fighting?


Jim ross seems to do the best when there is Drama. His reaction to the formation of Jericho's stable with Hager, the debut of Moxley show that. That is when he doesn't break kayfabe. When the stakes are not that high, or there is no story behind the match, he tends to do what you say.


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## Geeee (Aug 9, 2010)

*Re: Jim Ross says AEW still has to many flips and flops.*



InexorableJourney said:


> JR obviously misses calling chinlocks.


Tope suicida is the new chinlock.

-Dive out of the ring
-lay down until you can breathe LOL


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## swagger_ROCKS (Jun 5, 2010)

*Re: Jim Ross says AEW still has to many flips and flops.*

I can agree. the high flying stuff shouldn't be the norm in order to get the crowd rolling. I do think Young Bucks vs PP still kinda hit some strong points with the ring work even tho there was some flashy spots. 

And Mox definitely knows what he's doing in terms of story telling out there. A lot of his actions atm are speaking way louder than some people's words which is cool for his segments.


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## Jazminator (Jan 9, 2018)

*Re: Jim Ross says AEW still has to many flips and flops.*

He has a point.

Right now, AEW lacks great technical wrestlers along the lines of Chris Benoit, Dean Malenko, Lance Storm and Eddy Guerrero - guys who can do chain moves and holds. I love the high-flying stuff, but I love the mat stuff, too.


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## Geeee (Aug 9, 2010)

*Re: Jim Ross says AEW still has to many flips and flops.*



Jazminator said:


> He has a point.
> 
> Right now, AEW lacks great technical wrestlers along the lines of Chris Benoit, Dean Malenko, Lance Storm and Eddy Guerrero - guys who can do chain moves and holds. I love the high-flying stuff, but I love the mat stuff, too.


Hmm that's actually true. I think the most technically proficient guy in AEW is probably Dustin Rhodes or PAC


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## Sir Linko (Oct 10, 2019)

*Re: Jim Ross says AEW still has to many flips and flops.*

I love AEW. I think they're doing great in a lot of aspects. They have kinks to work out and I think the flip floppyness of AEW is going to tone down now that they blew their match loads over the last 3 weeks and PPV's. 

I also don't think it's the flip floppy stuff that bugs me as much as it's just everyone else does it as well. In the right spot, a dive to the outside is incredible. But when every wrestler does it, it obviously loses its luster. But slower, methodical match pace to start with while working to an exciting finish is a wonderful pace for most fans I believe. And so far there have been some good matches using that formula and I hope to see it return


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## Soul Rex (Nov 26, 2017)

*Re: Jim Ross says AEW still has to many flips and flops.*

A big problem is hardcore fans are getting extremely fucking used to flops, so you give them a great match with storytelling and psychology and they get confused.

Eliminate your focus on those fans and get more casuals in.


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## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

*Re: Jim Ross says AEW still has to many flips and flops.*



Jazminator said:


> He has a point.
> 
> Right now, AEW lacks great technical wrestlers along the lines of Chris Benoit, Dean Malenko, Lance Storm and Eddy Guerrero - guys who can do chain moves and holds. I love the high-flying stuff, but I love the mat stuff, too.


If only they could tear away Shingo Takagi and Ishii from NJPW

Or even ZSJ

You’re right, they need their ‘submission, mat-style’ guy(s)


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## Chris JeriG.O.A.T (Jun 17, 2014)

*Re: Jim Ross says AEW still has to many flips and flops.*



LifeInCattleClass said:


> They have just the right amount of flip flops IMO - less toned down that the PPVs between Bucks and Lucha - but still enough to not be boring


Wrestling *needs* flips and flops to not be boring?


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## llj (Feb 22, 2018)

*Re: Jim Ross says AEW still has to many flips and flops.*



Jazminator said:


> He has a point.
> 
> Right now, AEW lacks great technical wrestlers along the lines of Chris Benoit, Dean Malenko, Lance Storm and Eddy Guerrero - guys who can do chain moves and holds. I love the high-flying stuff, but I love the mat stuff, too.


To be fair, even in today's WWE that's a diminished commodity nowadays. I'd say Cesaro, Bryan, Gulak and yes, Orton come to mind foremost as "technical" guys. 

I see a lot more people today who betray their childhoods wanting to be HBK instead of guys like Bret Hart or Curt Hennig.


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## Taroostyles (Apr 1, 2007)

roadkill_ said:


> This is just plain false.


It is certainly not. Old school guys all said all those guys did was flips at 1st.


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## Tilon (Jun 27, 2019)

*Re: Jim Ross says AEW still has to many flips and flops.*

The dives where people have to be caught by their opponent are being overexposed. If it's limited, especially to the guys who REALLY make it look cool, it'd be ok. But the more it's exposed, the more obvious the catching crew is.


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## Reggie Dunlop (Nov 2, 2015)

*Re: Jim Ross says AEW still has to many flips and flops.*



LifeInCattleClass said:


> They have just the right amount of flip flops IMO - less toned down that the PPVs between Bucks and Lucha - but still enough to not be boring


This is where I'm at. I like the current mix, though I would also agree that they could use a _little_ more mat/chain wrestling here and there. But once again, they're about presenting a variety of styles, which I probably appreciate and enjoy most about the product right now. Which I know is not going to be the case with everybody. But fuck it, I like it. 

Problem with JR's assessment is, I don't think they have enough of the kind of workers (YET) to effectively perform the style he prefers. I also don't want to see that style to the exclusion of 'the flippy shit' -- sometimes I just get into a match of guys throwing themselves around like nutbags just for the hell of it. I don't care if it looks choreographed -- there's a reason why that style is popular in places, because some fans just find it cool. Like the Lucha Bros/Bucks ladder match -- just wall-to-wall insanity, and I loved it. But I don't want to see a whole show full of that either, just like I don't want to see a whole show full of chain wrestling and 'good old psychology'. 

I gotta say, though, JR saying that type of wrestling isn't new and fresh any more, yet he seems to be suggesting going back to a style that's even older and unfresher. I don't know, JR, I don't know ...

And since somebody just had to bring it up, FUCK MORE PROMOS. Promos are the laziest way to tell stories. Lazy and fucking BORING. It's the WWE way, it's all they know, because the monkeys behind keyboards over there don't know how to use the art of wrestling to tell a story. We don't need more promos force-feeding the narrative. AEW is doing a perfectly fine job of getting their stories across.


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## llj (Feb 22, 2018)

*Re: Jim Ross says AEW still has to many flips and flops.*



Reggie Dunlop said:


> And since somebody just had to bring it up, FUCK MORE PROMOS. Promos are the laziest way to tell stories. Lazy and fucking BORING. It's the WWE way, it's all they know, because the monkeys behind keyboards over there don't know how to use the art of wrestling to tell a story. We don't need more promos force-feeding the narrative. AEW is doing a perfectly fine job of getting their stories across.


While I think AEW could do with a bit more variety between segments, I think the WWE's heavy reliance on promos since the AE has influenced so many wrestling fans to such a high degree that they don't really know what casuals or non-wrestling fans think about them anymore.

I don't think all-workrate necessarily draws--NXT is an example of how niche a purely wrestling driven show can be. But I think people are severely underrating just how damaging WWE's promo-heavy system has become when it comes to drawing younger fans.

Every time I try to watch wrestling with anyone under 15 years old, the first thing they say is "Why is there so much talking?" You have 15, 20 minute promos that stretch longer than matches, because the WWE is so lazy they cannot tell a story through action segments and rely more and more on exposition. And this is a company that is desperately trying to court younger viewers!

I'm not disregarding the importance of promos, but the WWE is so reliant on them to tell EVERY story that they lose viewers the longer they go on. There are court dramas out there with less talking than most episodes of RAW and Smackdown.

I think AEW right now is balancing action with exposition the best of all the programs right now. It's heavier on action than talking, but it doesn't feel like NXT where things don't seem to have much context. One episode is much more action oriented than 5 or 6 RAWs and Smackdowns put together


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## Geeee (Aug 9, 2010)

*Re: Jim Ross says AEW still has to many flips and flops.*



Tilon said:


> The dives where people have to be caught by their opponent are being overexposed. If it's limited, especially to the guys who REALLY make it look cool, it'd be ok. But the more it's exposed, the more obvious the catching crew is.


Half the time a tope suicida barely looks like it connects. Either jump out of the ring and aggressively patti cake or jump out of the ring and lightly push them.

I think the ones where they land on their feet are the worst because what did they just do to hurt their opponent?


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## Chrome (Jan 11, 2012)

*Re: Jim Ross says AEW still has to many flips and flops.*

I don't mind the flippy stuff tbh, but that's just me. They definitely need more live promos and maybe some backstage segments as well. 3 shows in and it's criminal that Mox hasn't done a promo yet.


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## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

*Re: Jim Ross says AEW still has to many flips and flops.*



Chris JeriG.O.A.T said:


> Wrestling *needs* flips and flops to not be boring?


To me it does

Different tastes, y’know?

But my fav type of match is a mash of styles - a flippy guy vs a technical guy, for example


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## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

*Re: Jim Ross says AEW still has to many flips and flops.*



Reggie Dunlop said:


> This is where I'm at. I like the current mix, though I would also agree that they could use a _little_ more mat/chain wrestling here and there. But once again, they're about presenting a variety of styles, which I probably appreciate and enjoy most about the product right now. Which I know is not going to be the case with everybody. But fuck it, I like it.
> 
> Problem with JR's assessment is, I don't think they have enough of the kind of workers (YET) to effectively perform the style he prefers. I also don't want to see that style to the exclusion of 'the flippy shit' -- sometimes I just get into a match of guys throwing themselves around like nutbags just for the hell of it. I don't care if it looks choreographed -- there's a reason why that style is popular in places, because some fans just find it cool. Like the Lucha Bros/Bucks ladder match -- just wall-to-wall insanity, and I loved it. But I don't want to see a whole show full of that either, just like I don't want to see a whole show full of chain wrestling and 'good old psychology'.
> 
> ...


Yep, all of this is co-signed


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## Sir Linko (Oct 10, 2019)

*Re: Jim Ross says AEW still has to many flips and flops.*



LifeInCattleClass said:


> Yep, all of this is co-signed


Thanks for saying what was in my brain. 

Promos need to be used for most new wrestlers (by promos, I mean anything with them on screen outside a match). But I do agree the last 3 weeks have been fantastic because theres a ton of storytelling in many different ways. AeW could do better in some areas regarding storytelling but the "how" is almost perfect.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


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## Tilon (Jun 27, 2019)

*Re: Jim Ross says AEW still has to many flips and flops.*



Geeee said:


> Half the time a tope suicida barely looks like it connects. Either jump out of the ring and aggressively patti cake or jump out of the ring and lightly push them.
> 
> I think the ones where they land on their feet are the worst because what did they just do to hurt their opponent?


That's why I like the simpler crossbody off the top or over the rope. Looks a lot better and still lets the guy get caught.

I make exceptions for a few guys. Kenny and Scorpio have some mean dives, and Private Party gets an exception because cornrows gets insane air time. That's one of the most beautiful shooting star presses I've ever seen.

But the Mox-style dive through the ropes and touch your opponent is just garbage most of the time, and there's just too many dives.

Plenty of ways to flip without overexposing a setup and barely connecting, as you said.


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## Optikk is All Elite (Sep 5, 2007)

AEW wrestlers laugh in tope suicida


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## Geeee (Aug 9, 2010)

*Re: Jim Ross says AEW still has to many flips and flops.*

I do think Mox's dives have been better in AEW. Although part of it is probably that the WWE uses dives in a really annoying way. You can always tell they're coming and it's always the lead-in to an ad break.


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## looper007 (Dec 20, 2014)

*Re: Jim Ross says AEW still has to many flips and flops.*

Is it just me, maybe it is. But I just get the feeling JR isn't that big a fan of AEW, I hear more complaining about stuff then talking things up. Even on his podcast, it seems he finds it tough to say anything good. I wouldn't be too pleased to hear one of my commentators knocking the product. Money and the fact just been kept busy is probably why he did it. 

Could be wrong but I just don't get he loves that much.


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## Chris JeriG.O.A.T (Jun 17, 2014)

*Re: Jim Ross says AEW still has to many flips and flops.*



looper007 said:


> Is it just me, maybe it is. But I just get the feeling JR isn't that big a fan of AEW, I hear more complaining about stuff then talking things up. Even on his podcast, it seems he finds it tough to say anything good. I wouldn't be too pleased to hear one of my commentators knocking the product. Money and the fact just been kept busy is probably why he did it.
> 
> Could be wrong but I just don't get he loves that much.


It would make sense to me, JR is an old school characters and psychology guy and he's working for a flips and no-sells company. If he's not enjoying watching the in-ring product he certainly won't enjoy calling it.

In fact it makes sense why JR has been so terrible for the past few years, not caring to learn about the talents, the storylines or what the new moves are called, it's because all wrestling has devolved into spot fests and he's probably just not passionate about spot fest wrestling.


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## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

*Re: Jim Ross says AEW still has to many flips and flops.*



looper007 said:


> Is it just me, maybe it is. But I just get the feeling JR isn't that big a fan of AEW, I hear more complaining about stuff then talking things up. Even on his podcast, it seems he finds it tough to say anything good. I wouldn't be too pleased to hear one of my commentators knocking the product. Money and the fact just been kept busy is probably why he did it.
> 
> Could be wrong but I just don't get he loves that much.


I definitely get the feeling he doesn’t love everything

Personally I would like him to call more of the drama / main event stuff - he is quite good with that

Not sure....


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## Chan Hung (Dec 28, 2011)

Basically Jim Ross is a more considerate commentator than cornette LOL but they both have a similar mindset


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## looper007 (Dec 20, 2014)

*Re: Jim Ross says AEW still has to many flips and flops.*



LifeInCattleClass said:


> I definitely get the feeling he doesn’t love everything
> 
> Personally I would like him to call more of the drama / main event stuff - he is quite good with that
> 
> Not sure....


i'm not asking for a ass kisser who loves everything, but I just don't think he's a fan. He complains more about things then big up the positives. He complains at fans who knock him for his commentary, for having to travel, for all the flips and flops. Damn man, WWE and NJPW didn't want you, show some gratefulness to a company given you a chance to shine. 

It's just weird, wouldn't be surprising if he came out once he finishes and just slaughter's AEW. Maybe I'm harsh on him but just a feeling I get with him that more of this talk will damage AEW.


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## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

*Re: Jim Ross says AEW still has to many flips and flops.*



looper007 said:


> i'm not asking for a ass kisser who loves everything, but I just don't think he's a fan. He complains more about things then big up the positives. He complains at fans who knock him for his commentary, for having to travel, for all the flips and flops. Damn man, WWE and NJPW didn't want you, show some gratefulness to a company given you a chance to shine.
> 
> It's just weird, wouldn't be surprising if he came out once he finishes and just slaughter's AEW. Maybe I'm harsh on him but just a feeling I get with him that more of this talk will damage AEW.


I hope it doesn’t end up bitter - they gave him a chance when nobody else would

At the same time, I hope rose-coloured glasses do not blind Cody, Khan and the rest - when the time comes when the negative outweighs the positive, they need to do the right thing

Hope that is still a few years off though - we’ll see

Personally, I think he might get testy when not all his suggestions gets taken on-board. Cody said in an interview that Taz also had ideas, and they like to listen, but it has to fit in with the top 5’s vision

JRs maybe sees them as kids who should listen to his every suggestion - and they’re like ‘thanks legend, but let’s do it this way for now’

Its hard to work for someone you’ve watched growing up


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## TD Stinger (May 9, 2012)

*Re: Jim Ross says AEW still has to many flips and flops.*

I mean if you've heard JR call any match in AEW, it's pretty obvious that's what he thinks.

Since coming to TV and having Tony and Excalibur to help, he's been much better. But for the first few shows he mainly sounded like a cranky old man that didn't like what he was calling when it came to guys he wasn't that familiar with.


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## Geeee (Aug 9, 2010)

*Re: Jim Ross says AEW still has to many flips and flops.*



Chris JeriG.O.A.T said:


> It would make sense to me, JR is an old school characters and psychology guy and he's working for a flips and no-sells company. If he's not enjoying watching the in-ring product he certainly won't enjoy calling it.
> 
> In fact it makes sense why JR has been so terrible for the past few years, not caring to learn about the talents, the storylines or what the new moves are called, it's because all wrestling has devolved into spot fests and he's probably just not passionate about spot fest wrestling.


Even back in his prime JR had trouble telling Matt and Jeff Hardy apart and didn't know which was the Whisper in the Wind and which was Poetry in Motion, so I think he's always tuned out this style of wrestling a bit LOL


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## V-Trigger (Jul 6, 2016)

*Re: Jim Ross says AEW still has to many flips and flops.*



roadkill_ said:


> This is just plain false.


Kevin Nash, Triple H, Hulk Hogan and Sycho Sid would like to have a word with you.

Some of those goons said that Liger, Pillman, Rey, Eddie or Psicosis didn't know how to work.


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## Tilon (Jun 27, 2019)

*Re: Jim Ross says AEW still has to many flips and flops.*

They need to listen to JR. He's got a point. It doesn't mean you have to stop doing your crazy shit, but telling a story during a match is fundamental to grabbing people's attention.

You'll always get more interest with a story that happens to have some awesome flips than a shitload of flips without any story. And when I say story, I mean psychology in a match.


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## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

*Re: Jim Ross says AEW still has to many flips and flops.*



Tilon said:


> They need to listen to JR. He's got a point. It doesn't mean you have to stop doing your crazy shit, but telling a story during a match is fundamental to grabbing people's attention.
> 
> You'll always get more interest with a story that happens to have some awesome flips than a shitload of flips without any story. And when I say story, I mean psychology in a match.


On their tv show, there is yet to be a match that doesn’t tell a story IMO

Might not be a story that everybody likes all the time- but its there


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## V-Trigger (Jul 6, 2016)

*Re: Jim Ross says AEW still has to many flips and flops.*



Tilon said:


> They need to listen to JR. He's got a point. It doesn't mean you have to stop doing your crazy shit, but telling a story during a match is fundamental to grabbing people's attention.
> 
> You'll always get more interest with a story that happens to have some awesome flips than a shitload of flips without any story. And when I say story, I mean psychology in a match.


Almost every big match that they had told a story.
Cody vs Sammy. Page and Dustin vs IC, Bucks vs PP, Page and Kenny vs Mox and PAC. JE vs Lucha Bros.

Maybe JR needs to pay more attention because I could tell you the story of those matches right away.


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## Tilon (Jun 27, 2019)

*Re: Jim Ross says AEW still has to many flips and flops.*

Yeah, they're trying. They get it. That's why I'm a big fan. But they can improve.


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## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

*Re: Jim Ross says AEW still has to many flips and flops.*



Tilon said:


> Yeah, they're trying. They get it. That's why I'm a big fan. But they can improve.


True, true - everybody can improve


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## V-Trigger (Jul 6, 2016)

*Re: Jim Ross says AEW still has to many flips and flops.*

They should avoid talking about AEW like Conrad does with Tony because they could slip and cause trouble.


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## thisissting (Aug 14, 2018)

Spot on. The young Bucks are the worst for it. Ruining finishing moves every week.


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## Geeee (Aug 9, 2010)

*Re: Jim Ross says AEW still has to many flips and flops.*



thisissting said:


> Spot on. The young Bucks are the worst for it. Ruining finishing moves every week.


TBF I don't recall anyone kicking out of the Meltzer Driver.


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## Tilon (Jun 27, 2019)

*Re: Jim Ross says AEW still has to many flips and flops.*



LifeInCattleClass said:


> True, true - everybody can improve


Simple fact is, nobody is going to tune in for 3 years straight to watch the same flips. They watch for great characters and to see them interacting with each other. That's what JR is focused on. He sees psychology as the fundamentals of the business, not the circus act. And he's right.

There's a place for both, but one should be subordinate to the other.


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## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

*Re: Jim Ross says AEW still has to many flips and flops.*



Tilon said:


> Simple fact is, nobody is going to tune in for 3 years straight to watch the same flips. They watch for great characters and to see them interacting with each other. That's what JR is focused on. He sees psychology as the fundamentals of the business, not the circus act. And he's right.
> 
> There's a place for both, but one should be subordinate to the other.


It all comes down to ‘what is psychology’ - which is murky waters, fraught with opinions

But here is a reddit post i like about it - flips are psychology too  - it is a 2y old post, but still relevant

https://www.reddit.com/r/SquaredCir...is_psychology_in_wrestling_how_do_you_define/


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## Tilon (Jun 27, 2019)

*Re: Jim Ross says AEW still has to many flips and flops.*



LifeInCattleClass said:


> It all comes down to ‘what is psychology’ - which is murky waters, fraught with opinions
> 
> But here is a reddit post i like about it - flips are psychology too  - it is a 2y old post, but still relevant[/url]


I said it has a place, of course it does. And I'm confident AEW gets it overall. I'm just not digging the constant shitting on JR. The guy has a point, it's the core of the business and it can improve some. He's afraid of it eroding. And I'll take his opinion over some rando on reddit anyday. I don't even disagree with the post. I think the problem really happens when you see tons of flips and huge moves and nobody even appears hurt from it. That's when it becomes a circus act.


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## looper007 (Dec 20, 2014)

*Re: Jim Ross says AEW still has to many flips and flops.*



Tilon said:


> I said it has a place, of course it does. And I'm confident AEW gets it overall. I'm just not digging the constant shitting on JR. The guy has a point, it's the core of the business and it can improve some. He's afraid of it eroding. And I'll take his opinion over some rando on reddit anyday. I don't even disagree with the post. I think the problem really happens when you see tons of flips and huge moves and nobody even appears hurt from it. That's when it becomes a circus act.


JR doesn't help himself with his constant moaning, put the company you are working for over. They given you a chance when WWE and other companies written him off. It's fine to be critical but damn also give some praise too.


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## Tilon (Jun 27, 2019)

*Re: Jim Ross says AEW still has to many flips and flops.*



looper007 said:


> JR doesn't help himself with his constant moaning, put the company you are working for over. They given you a chance when WWE and other companies written him off. It's fine to be critical but damn also give some praise too.


There's a role for that on commentary. Maybe some of the things he said are a bit out of line but you don't want everyone in the booth praising the Corporation either. That mentality has taken WWE to a place where they barely appear human anymore.


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## Intimidator3 (Sep 28, 2019)

*Re: Jim Ross says AEW still has to many flips and flops.*

The flippy stuff really isn’t my style either but most of the time I can enjoy it. Too much of it starts to get on my nerves. It’s one of those weird things where a little too much makes it way too much if that makes sense. So I guess it’s about finding a good balance.


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## looper007 (Dec 20, 2014)

*Re: Jim Ross says AEW still has to many flips and flops.*



Tilon said:


> There's a role for that on commentary. Maybe some of the things he said are a bit out of line but you don't want everyone in the booth praising the Corporation either. That mentality has taken WWE to a place where they barely appear human anymore.


I agree you don't want ass kissing, but i've yet to see JR do at least 5% of praising the company that pay him very well considering he's nowhere near the level he once was. I'm just not seen a lot of love for the product from Ross, it's probably just me that feels that way. I think he's done well once Tony Schiavonne jumped aboard the desk, he's got back to a decent level. He's got an anger to him these days, maybe cause of his wife tragic death and been kicked to the curb by WWE would make you angry. 

Again might be just me on this.


----------



## Tilon (Jun 27, 2019)

*Re: Jim Ross says AEW still has to many flips and flops.*



looper007 said:


> I agree you don't want ass kissing, but i've yet to see JR do at least 5% of praising the company that pay him very well considering he's nowhere near the level he once was. I'm just not seen a lot of love for the product from Ross, it's probably just me that feels that way. I think he's done well once Tony Schiavonne jumped aboard the desk, he's got back to a decent level. He's got an anger to him these days, maybe cause of his wife tragic death and been kicked to the curb by WWE would make you angry.
> 
> Again might be just me on this.


I agree that he needed Tony there. They both share a similar mentality, but Tony is more upbeat. They'll be fine together.


----------



## Sir Linko (Oct 10, 2019)

*Re: Jim Ross says AEW still has to many flips and flops.*

Match psychology and matches making sense is incredibly important. Flippy moves, hardcore matches, ect these are all fine. But when it's pretty obvious that people are just doing stuff to just do stuff it really makes it hard to suspend even a shred of belief.

Flippy moves are just a style, it's whatever. But even someone like Mysterio who was at one point a king of Flippy Floppies. Was able to sell drama, emotion, moves, a match ect. I agree 100% with JR on the match psychology, not entirely that it's because of the flippy moves. I think some of it has to do with the amount of false finishes and underselling of moves just to get to the next spot. 

Honestly, though, now that I think about it. It only seems this way in the tag matches. The Singles matches look pretty great and maybe once the Tag Tournament slows down and AeW can start building midcard fueds and contenders for the World Title things may be different. 

So far the Tag matches look incredible but almost overly choreographed, I enjoy them, but too many is too much.


----------



## Gh0stFace (Oct 10, 2019)

*Re: Jim Ross says AEW still has to many flips and flops.*



looper007 said:


> JR doesn't help himself with his constant moaning, put the company you are working for over. They given you a chance when WWE and other companies written him off. It's fine to be critical but damn also give some praise too.


Thank you. JR was great back in the day but nowadays I don't feel that enthusiasm in his voice anymore. He's just there to collect a paycheck and this proves it.


----------



## TalkLoudHitHarder (Dec 31, 2017)

*Re: Jim Ross says AEW still has to many flips and flops.*

and that it has 0 storylines, khan apparently doesn't believe in backstage segments, and absolutely nothing going on besides match after match. you would think they would learn that mistake by fucking WWE for crying out loud.


----------



## DOTL (Jan 3, 2012)

*Re: Jim Ross says AEW still has to many flips and flops.*

I hope they listen to him.


----------



## looper007 (Dec 20, 2014)

*Re: Jim Ross says AEW still has to many flips and flops.*



TalkLoudHitHarder said:


> and that it has 0 storylines, khan apparently doesn't believe in backstage segments, and absolutely nothing going on besides match after match. you would think they would learn that mistake by fucking WWE for crying out loud.


They have, they let talent cut their own promos, tell a story in a match, don't knock you over the head with twenty minute promos to spell everything out for you. Stop been over dramatic and acting like they aren't offering something different.

I hope JR does some flips and flops soon through the ropes, that's what I need to see

Was he saying these same things when he was doing those silly spots in WWE with kissing ass and shit. The hell was he.


----------



## TalkLoudHitHarder (Dec 31, 2017)

*Re: Jim Ross says AEW still has to many flips and flops.*



looper007 said:


> They have, they let talent cut their own promos, tell a story in a match, don't knock you over the head with twenty minute promos to spell everything out for you. Stop been over dramatic and acting like they aren't offering something different.


i still had to turn off last show cause there was too many pointless boring matches. ill stick to WWE for now. atleast they have atleast 1 storyline with rusev and lana.


----------



## Reggie Dunlop (Nov 2, 2015)

*Re: Jim Ross says AEW still has to many flips and flops.*



TalkLoudHitHarder said:


> and that it has 0 storylines, khan apparently doesn't believe in backstage segments, and absolutely nothing going on besides match after match. you would think they would learn that mistake by fucking WWE for crying out loud.


I didn’t get that at all. You’re injecting your own personal opinion here as something Ross said, which he didn’t. If you think there’s absolutely nothing going on besides match after match, you’re just not paying much attention. 

And learn WHAT from WWE? WWE wastes half of every show with scripted promos and idiotic backstage segments and lame-ass interviews, because that’s Vince’s vision of sports entertainment. AEW is anything but that horseshit.



TalkLoudHitHarder said:


> i still had to turn off last show cause there was too many pointless boring matches. ill stick to WWE for now. atleast they have atleast 1 storyline with rusev and lana.


Yeah, like I said, horseshit. If that’s what you want in a wrestling show, you’re much better off sticking with WWE. And you deserve what you get.


----------



## V-Trigger (Jul 6, 2016)

*Re: Jim Ross says AEW still has to many flips and flops.*



TalkLoudHitHarder said:


> they have atleast 1 storyline with rusev and lana.


To each their own. You should subscribe to brazzers btw. Better performers and all that.


----------



## NXT Only (Apr 3, 2016)

*Re: Jim Ross says AEW still has to many flips and flops.*



SayWhatAgain! said:


> More promo's and storytelling.


WWE has all of that.


----------



## TalkLoudHitHarder (Dec 31, 2017)

*Re: Jim Ross says AEW still has to many flips and flops.*



Reggie Dunlop said:


> I didn’t get that at all. You’re injecting your own personal opinion here as something Ross said, which he didn’t. If you think there’s absolutely nothing going on besides match after match, you’re just not paying much attention.
> 
> And learn WHAT from WWE? WWE wastes half of every show with scripted promos and idiotic backstage segments and lame-ass interviews, because that’s Vince’s vision of sports entertainment. AEW is anything but that horseshit.


never said he said any of that.


----------



## Reggie Dunlop (Nov 2, 2015)

*Re: Jim Ross says AEW still has to many flips and flops.*



TalkLoudHitHarder said:


> never said he said any of that.


Then what the fuck did you bring it up in this thread for.


----------



## Buster Baxter (Mar 30, 2015)

*Re: Jim Ross says AEW still has to many flips and flops.*



llj said:


> He has a point, but another problem in AEW right now is that JR also gets into the habit of breaking kayfabe when commentating these days. Talking about psychology during a match...UMMM hello? Jim? You're on TV again? You're supposed to pretend they're actually fighting?


Yup. I remember him saying Moxley and Omega have great chemistry, he needs to get that shit together.


----------



## RapShepard (Jun 20, 2014)

*Re: Jim Ross says AEW still has to many flips and flops.*



looper007 said:


> Is it just me, maybe it is. But I just get the feeling JR isn't that big a fan of AEW, I hear more complaining about stuff then talking things up. Even on his podcast, it seems he finds it tough to say anything good. I wouldn't be too pleased to hear one of my commentators knocking the product. Money and the fact just been kept busy is probably why he did it.
> 
> 
> 
> Could be wrong but I just don't get he loves that much.


Yeah he needs a stern talking to tbh. There's no reason to constantly be publically negative to the company paying you a shit ton of money.


----------



## yeahbaby! (Jan 27, 2014)

*Re: Jim Ross says AEW still has to many flips and flops.*

He's right. the main problem is every second fucking match, or every damn match has these constant flippy dippy moves in them. Everyone has to do a fucking tope and backflips n shit.

If everyone does diving around and fucking superkicks and enzugiris every match, they become run of the mill and not special. They become a move for the sake of a move, it's got nothing to do with actually hurting the other person.

Can someone tell me what a guy the size of Hangman is doing a standing SSP and moonsault off the top to the floor? Okay that's impressive athleticism, but leave that to the tiny guys on their roster who actually need it make their offence look believable.

Where are the powerslams, the spine busters, the sitout powerbombs, the huge german suplexes?


----------



## Tk Adeyemi (Feb 14, 2019)

I don’t know why Aew fans are against promos. Promos and catch phrases is what made the rock one of the 3 biggest stars the industry has ever seen.


----------



## CM Buck (Sep 2, 2012)

*Re: Jim Ross says AEW still has to many flips and flops.*

I think I get where Jr is coming from. I'm going to use raw as it is fresh in my mind and heyman shares the same sentiments.

Ricochet vs drew. We all know ricochet at his worst is a flipping spot monkey. But when he wrestled drew tonight he built to his high spots, used them in small bursts to stun and keep the bigger opponent down

Then we had cara vs Andrade. Cara came out flying no pun intended then got beat down but then picked up the pace with the high flying before he got put away.

Carrillo used the same formula 

As did ford.

If that's what jr is alluding to then I agree. Flips and flops aren't bad if you build towards them like you would a roller-coaster. It's the same thing with power spots or fighting spirit strong style spots you have to build towards them.

All that being said sometimes it's just fun to shut your brain off and not care about psychology which aew does good with as well.


----------



## RBrooks (Oct 18, 2013)

*Re: Jim Ross says AEW still has to many flips and flops.*



llj said:


> He has a point, but another problem in AEW right now is that JR also gets into the habit of breaking kayfabe when commentating these days. Talking about psychology during a match...UMMM hello? Jim? You're on TV again? You're supposed to pretend they're actually fighting?


I chuckled when he talked about Moxley and Omega (I think) having "good chemistry in the ring" :lol 

Anyway, Jim is a good man, hope he's doing great.


----------



## Hangman (Feb 3, 2017)

*Re: Jim Ross says AEW still has to many flips and flops.*

A few more promos would be nice, BUT, we are only 3 shows in building takes time.


----------



## MontyCora (Aug 31, 2016)

*Re: Jim Ross says AEW still has to many flips and flops.*

I'm glad that JR is there to try and help reign in the youthful need to one-up spots. 

As long as his frustration and annoyance doesn't actively bleed over into his commentary it's fine.


----------



## Desecrated (Feb 4, 2009)

*Re: Jim Ross says AEW still has to many flips and flops.*

Comes across as he doesn't have as much of a voice as he wants.

There's no correct amount of anything, except lethal substances. People want AEW to be WWE-lite from the gate out, except perfect. Let them find what middle-ground their audience wants rather than what we've come to expect from other companies who actually don't listen to their fanbase.


----------



## ellthom (May 2, 2011)

*Re: Jim Ross says AEW still has to many flips and flops.*

If anyone doesn't like the flippy flop stuff I recommend NWA Powerr... it;s more grounded an is more heavily focused on characters and old school in ring story telling. In my opinion is better than AEW and WWE... mainly because it's only an hour long which is more than enough wrestling a week


----------



## MontyCora (Aug 31, 2016)

*Re: Jim Ross says AEW still has to many flips and flops.*



ellthom said:


> If anyone doesn't like the flippy flop stuff I recommend NWA Powerr... it;s more grounded an is more heavily focused on characters and old school in ring story telling. In my opinion is better than AEW and WWE... mainly because it's only an hour long which is more than enough wrestling a week


The problem is the work itself is most of the show, and the work is on the boring side.


----------



## RainmakerV2 (Nov 8, 2017)

*Re: Jim Ross says AEW still has to many flips and flops.*

People are worried about JR breaking kayfabe when Marko Stunt is going 15 with the Lucha Bros LOL. You're aware of a term called self awareness, no?


----------



## DJ Punk (Sep 1, 2016)

*Re: Jim Ross says AEW still has to many flips and flops.*

Explains how disinterested and confused he's sounded the past few shows. A shame because he really showed promise (signs of the old JR) when Moxley debuted at the end of Double or Nothing...


----------



## ellthom (May 2, 2011)

*Re: Jim Ross says AEW still has to many flips and flops.*



MontyCora said:


> The problem is the work itself is most of the show, and the work is on the boring side.


You talking NWA or AEW?


----------



## Soul Rex (Nov 26, 2017)

*Re: Jim Ross says AEW still has to many flips and flops.*



Tk Adeyemi said:


> I don’t know why Aew fans are against promos. Promos and catch phrases is what made the rock one of the 3 biggest stars the industry has ever seen.


Toxic and stubborn smarks who only want this shit to be a super indy company with purwokrate and vanilla midgets so they are the only who can enjoy it.

Holly fuck I'veen a fan on internet for a long long time, I don't remember seen a worse bunch of proudy neckbeards such as these.


----------



## MontyCora (Aug 31, 2016)

*Re: Jim Ross says AEW still has to many flips and flops.*



ellthom said:


> You talking NWA or AEW?


NWA. I only watched the first episode so far, but it wasn't blow away work by any means. The appeal was the feel and the look and the promos and all that stuff. I am not a spot monkey mark btw, my favorite match of the past few weeks was the Omega/Hangman vs Moxley/Pac tag which was as much story heavy as it was thrills and hard-hitting lariats.


----------



## MontyCora (Aug 31, 2016)

*Re: Jim Ross says AEW still has to many flips and flops.*



Soul Rex said:


> Toxic and stubborn smarks who only want this shit to be a super indy company with purwokrate and vanilla midgets so they are the only who can enjoy it.
> 
> Holly fuck I'veen a fan on internet for a long long time, I don't remember seen a worse bunch of proudy neckbeards such as these.


I want more promos, but that being said I have ZERO issue with the promos being short sweet and to the point. None of these meandering ten-minute endless Rollins promos ever again, plz. You only need 30 seconds to a couple of minutes to hook people, sell yourself and make the point.


----------



## Soul Rex (Nov 26, 2017)

*Re: Jim Ross says AEW still has to many flips and flops.*



MontyCora said:


> I want more promos, but that being said I have ZERO issue with the promos being short sweet and to the point. None of these meandering ten-minute endless Rollins promos ever again, plz. You only need 30 seconds to a couple of minutes to hook people, sell yourself and make the point.


Think about Jericho promo on second dynamite, it was by far the best thing thet have done so far and argurably the one that generated more interest.

You are not thinking on WWE boring promos, you are thinking about a possible Attitude Era level or mic works from guys like MJF, Moxley, etc without script, you can't put a limit to that? you will do it as much as you think it will gain viewers.

I've said it a thousand times, they have a ridiculuously big tool to get big and they are not using it because thet are too passive.


----------



## MontyCora (Aug 31, 2016)

*Re: Jim Ross says AEW still has to many flips and flops.*



Soul Rex said:


> Think about Jericho promo on second dynamite, it was by far the best thing thet have done so far and argurably the one that generated more interest.
> 
> You are not thinking on WWE boring promos, you are thinking about a possible Attitude Era level or mic works from guys like MJF, Moxley, etc without script, you can't put a limit to that? you will do it as much as you think it will gain viewers.
> 
> I've said it a thousand times, they have a ridiculuously big tool to get big and they are not using it because thet are too passive.


Yeah but that Jericho promo wasn't fucking 15 minutes long. Brevity is the soul of wit, as the master said.


----------



## Geeee (Aug 9, 2010)

*Re: Jim Ross says AEW still has to many flips and flops.*

Back in the AE guys like Jericho, Angle and The Rock used to cut promos during their entrances... And I believe MJF also did this at All In.

I'm surprised this isn't a tool AEW uses more often.


----------



## ellthom (May 2, 2011)

*Re: Jim Ross says AEW still has to many flips and flops.*



MontyCora said:


> NWA. I only watched the first episode so far, but it wasn't blow away work by any means. The appeal was the feel and the look and the promos and all that stuff. I am not a spot monkey mark btw, my favorite match of the past few weeks was the Omega/Hangman vs Moxley/Pac tag which was as much story heavy as it was thrills and hard-hitting lariats.


I'd get through AEW a lot easier if it was 1 hour long, I like it, I just don't like the idea of a wrestling show being longer than 1 hour. Even starting to phase out of NxT now because they made it two hours.. The 1 hour NxT was so convenient and good, the two hours just makes it looks so padded.

Maybe I am just getting old lol.


----------



## Soul Rex (Nov 26, 2017)

*Re: Jim Ross says AEW still has to many flips and flops.*



MontyCora said:


> Yeah but that Jericho promo wasn't fucking 15 minutes long. Brevity is the soul of wit, as the master said.


I am not sure, I am not counting the minutes, I just know they have to give enough promo time to give good stories, character development and to keep the crowd enganged for the whole two hours.

How much is that, they should know better than us, but apparently they don't.


----------



## Optikk is All Elite (Sep 5, 2007)

ellthom said:


> MontyCora said:
> 
> 
> > NWA. I only watched the first episode so far, but it wasn't blow away work by any means. The appeal was the feel and the look and the promos and all that stuff. I am not a spot monkey mark btw, my favorite match of the past few weeks was the Omega/Hangman vs Moxley/Pac tag which was as much story heavy as it was thrills and hard-hitting lariats.
> ...


i honestly feel the same. A one hour show just feels right.


----------



## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

*Re: Jim Ross says AEW still has to many flips and flops.*



ellthom said:


> I'd get through AEW a lot easier if it was 1 hour long, I like it, I just don't like the idea of a wrestling show being longer than 1 hour. Even starting to phase out of NxT now because they made it two hours.. The 1 hour NxT was so convenient and good, the two hours just makes it looks so padded.
> 
> Maybe I am just getting old lol.


DVR, watch over 2 nights, sorted


----------



## CHAMPIONSHIPS (Dec 14, 2016)

*Re: Jim Ross says AEW still has to many flips and flops.*

I agree. Too many people's movesets and styles are too similar. Even the bigger guys are trying to be Luchadores, it makes things kinda boring when there isn't enough variety and it dilutes the characters

I like the pace and aggression of the matches though. Don't go 1980s slow. Just switch up the movesets between performers


----------



## The XL 2 (Sep 13, 2016)

*Re: Jim Ross says AEW still has to many flips and flops.*

Promos, storylines, psychology and storytelling is the lifeblood of the business, without it AEW is doomed to an increasingly diminishing and obscure niche. Tony Khan better tread carefully and consider what he's looking for in AEW, and who he winds up listening to.


----------



## Reggie Dunlop (Nov 2, 2015)

*Re: Jim Ross says AEW still has to many flips and flops.*

I’m growing to really fucking loathe the very sound of the word ‘promos’.


----------



## looper007 (Dec 20, 2014)

*Re: Jim Ross says AEW still has to many flips and flops.*



Soul Rex said:


> Toxic and stubborn smarks who only want this shit to be a super indy company with purwokrate and vanilla midgets so they are the only who can enjoy it.
> 
> Holly fuck I'veen a fan on internet for a long long time, I don't remember seen a worse bunch of proudy neckbeards such as these.


Says the guy who wants it to go back to been big oiled up muscle men. You shouldn't throw shade at anyone Soul Rex. Go back and watch the attitude era on WWE network to get you're kicks.


----------



## roadkill_ (Jan 28, 2010)

*Re: Jim Ross says AEW still has to many flips and flops.*



Soul Rex said:


> Toxic and stubborn smarks who only want this shit to be a super indy company with purwokrate and vanilla midgets so they are the only who can enjoy it.
> 
> Holly fuck I'veen a fan on internet for a long long time, I don't remember seen a worse bunch of proudy neckbeards such as these.


Yeah it's pretty bad.

Fanboy neckbeards of bingo hall skinny fat midgets, trying to maintain the 'purity', at the cost of growth or, y'know... entertainment. These people existed in the 1990's too, and they always opposed any form of growth. They didn't want Hogan coming into WCW. They didn't want the WWF getting edgier.

Fact is though, if bottom-feeders like Jimmy Havoc and other assorted Z-listers are pushed, ratings are going to continue on a downward trajectory. Nitro had a slow upward trajectory, AEW is so far not following in its path.

At some point TNT will have an advisory word with the Khans, if Khan doesn't get the message himself - midgets and hobos are not drawing a dime - go hire some fucking wrestlers. There's a difference between a television audience and 80-90 'you deserve it' smarks online rooting for some bum that no-one has heard of.


----------



## TalkLoudHitHarder (Dec 31, 2017)

*Re: Jim Ross says AEW still has to many flips and flops.*



Reggie Dunlop said:


> Then what the fuck did you bring it up in this thread for.


to give my honest thoughts on it.


----------



## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

*Re: Jim Ross says AEW still has to many flips and flops.*

Oh brother... another one


----------



## roadkill_ (Jan 28, 2010)

*Re: Jim Ross says AEW still has to many flips and flops.*



looper007 said:


> Says the guy who wants it to go back to been big oiled up muscle men. You shouldn't throw shade at anyone Soul Rex. Go back and watch the attitude era on WWE network to get you're kicks.


That's funny because I'd be pretty sure the Attitude Era is the prime driver behind WWE Network subscriptions. And I don't recall anyone ever associating the Attitude Era with 'big oiled up muscle men'.

And who the fuck uses that ad hom nowadays anyway? Because people don't want to watch hobos like Jimmy Havoc, they're closet homosexuals now? 

LOL.


----------



## Reggie Dunlop (Nov 2, 2015)

*Re: Jim Ross says AEW still has to many flips and flops.*

Amazing how much cred is suddenly given to JR when he says something that they think fits a certain narrative. Up until now I'd have thought he was a total washed-up hasbeen listening to these people. Now he's the voice of God Himself. What a remarkable transformation. 



roadkill_ said:


> That's funny because I'd be pretty sure the Attitude Era is the prime driver behind WWE Network subscriptions. And I don't recall anyone ever associating the Attitude Era with 'big oiled up muscle men'.
> 
> And who the fuck uses that ad hom nowadays anyway? Because people don't want to watch hobos like Jimmy Havoc, they're closet homosexuals now?
> 
> LOL.


And you're here because .... ?????



TalkLoudHitHarder said:


> to give my honest thoughts on it.


There's about 80 other threads on that topic where you could have trolled given your honest thoughts on.


----------



## Soul Rex (Nov 26, 2017)

*Re: Jim Ross says AEW still has to many flips and flops.*



looper007 said:


> Says the guy who wants it to go back to been big oiled up muscle men. You shouldn't throw shade at anyone Soul Rex. Go back and watch the attitude era on WWE network to get you're kicks.


Uh I've got time to both watch old clips of the glorious attitude era and shit on this current wokrate/midget era that nobody but three WF neckbeards like.


----------



## bcbud3 (Aug 17, 2010)

I agree with JR. Why hate the truth?


----------



## The XL 2 (Sep 13, 2016)

Smarks are trying to kill this once promising promotion before it gets out of the blocks. This horse shit has no place nationally. This is supposed to be more WCW than PWG or ROH. Fucking smarks and Meltzer have ruined the business, its dead.


----------



## TheDraw (Jun 27, 2019)

*Re: Jim Ross says AEW still has to many flips and flops.*



Reggie Dunlop said:


> Amazing how much cred is suddenly given to JR when he says something that they think fits a certain narrative. Up until now I'd have thought he was a total washed-up hasbeen listening to these people. Now he's the voice of God Himself. What a remarkable transformation.
> 
> 
> And you're here because .... ?????
> ...



I saw a clip of Brock standing in the ring with Punk and I realized how far we have fallen. Guys like Rock, Lesar, HHH, Cena, ect looked like superhuman superstars....they where nust so huge and play their partsright without doing a single flip.

I really do hate Indy trash wrestlers who dont take care of their physique. I am bigger and in better shape than 90 % of the wrestlers today and I am just a little bit above average in terms of size and weight lifting.

You have bum fucks like Cassidy who look like they've never lifted a weight in their lives labeled as stars by indy fans. 

So indy fans in my eyes are to blame because thats who asked for this. Ruined the business.


So yeah, my rant doesnt have so much to do with flips.....but the flip culture comes from many wrestlers who werent trained in the traditional old school way they used to be trained when psychology was key. Its all about who can do kore moves.

Its not wrestling its a gymansitcs performance.


----------



## AustinStunner (Jul 26, 2019)

*Re: Jim Ross says AEW still has to many flips and flops.*



roadkill_ said:


> Yeah it's pretty bad.
> 
> Fanboy neckbeards of bingo hall skinny fat midgets, trying to maintain the 'purity', at the cost of growth or, y'know... entertainment. These people existed in the 1990's too, and they always opposed any form of growth. They didn't want Hogan coming into WCW. They didn't want the WWF getting edgier.


I can only imagine back then smarks saying shit like "Hogan? Why is he coming to WCW? Instead of bringing this has been Hogan , they should just push Steven Regal" :franklol


----------



## Death Rider (May 18, 2011)

God the anti-smarks are annoying. If you are that stuck in the past you have the network. Times change.


----------



## ImSumukh (Mar 26, 2016)

I don't think they have as many flip flops as WWE :lol


----------



## thorn123 (Oct 10, 2019)

I think AEW are doing a pretty good job mixing it up with flips, in ring work, promos. Maybe a few too many flips, but not by much. And add a few more big guys, that would be good. I am enjoying it.


----------



## JerryMark (May 7, 2016)

the other jim was also right about how jericho looked like a clown needing help against a guy who nobody has ever heard of who couldn't use his arms.



making your champ and biggest star by far look weak 3 weeks in:cornette


----------



## Geeee (Aug 9, 2010)

JerryMark said:


> the other jim was also right about how jericho looked like a clown needing help against a guy who nobody has ever heard of who couldn't use his arms.
> 
> 
> 
> making your champ and biggest star by far look weak 3 weeks in:cornette


Meh I'm willing to give this a pass because they obviously were running short on time and the finish was clearly rushed. Also, AEW wants you to hear about Darby Allin


----------



## Reggie Dunlop (Nov 2, 2015)

JerryMark said:


> the other jim was also right about how jericho looked like a clown needing help against a guy who nobody has ever heard of who couldn't use his arms.
> 
> 
> 
> making your champ and biggest star by far look weak 3 weeks in:cornette


Except that 1, a lot of people have heard of Darby Allin (even more now). You might have too if you could get your head out if Vince’s ass long enough.

And 2, the point was to build up Darby, you know, like what they do when they want to make new stars, which they did. Jericho didn’t come out of that looking any weaker. It just further established him as a heel, and without another fucking promo. Imagine that. 

People can’t figure out something as simple as that, it’s no wonder you’re all shitting on this thing. Durrrr, I don’t know what’s going on, durrrr, I needs more promos so somebody can tells me, durrrrr. 

It’s all MTV’s fault. And probably ESPN.


----------



## The XL 2 (Sep 13, 2016)

Death Rider said:


> God the anti-smarks are annoying. If you are that stuck in the past you have the network. Times change.


Nothing really changed. You guys hijacked the business and everyone stopped watching. The formula for successful pro wrestling hasn't changed at all.


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## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

The XL 2 said:


> Nothing really changed. You guys hijacked the business and everyone stopped watching. The formula for successful pro wrestling hasn't changed at all.


These guys built and started a whole business and brand based on their wrestling

No reason why they should change what brought them to the dance


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## roadkill_ (Jan 28, 2010)

Reggie Dunlop said:


> And you're here because .... ?????


Uh, because I wish to opine.




The XL 2 said:


> Smarks are trying to kill this once promising promotion before it gets out of the blocks. This horse shit has no place nationally. This is supposed to be more WCW than PWG or ROH. Fucking smarks and Meltzer have ruined the business, its dead.


Yeah I've been saying it for a while, Khan has to pick a direction and stick with it. Either try to establish a big league promotion, or go for a niche product with Z-list jobber midgets.

You can't straddle the fence and try to become WCW's successor (even if you deny that's what you're trying to do) by pushing this roster of indie manlet bores. 

If Khan listens to online smarks then AEW is done for.


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## Alright_Mate (Jul 21, 2014)

JR is bang on as well as a few posters in this thread.

Almost every match we see a tope suicida or a dive over the top rope, it's really starting to become a bit overkill.

I expect to see a lot of stuff like that in tag team matches, Fenix especially is great at it. When it comes to watching the likes of Hangman, Cody and Omega do it, it becomes very excessive and quite needless.

Cody vs Dustin is the pinnacle of great storytelling and psychology, that's the kind of stuff AEW need to do more of.


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## roadkill_ (Jan 28, 2010)

LifeInCattleClass said:


> These guys built and started a whole business and brand based on their wrestling
> 
> No reason why they should change what brought them to the dance


Get real. Khan and TNT put this thing on the map. Khan's money, and TNT's fear of the cord-cutting endemic. The only play broadcast television has left is live TV, that's the only thing they have to compete with torrenting and streaming now. An alternative to WWE is a good play at this juncture, the time is right to take a shot and use wrestling to stall hemorrhaging viewership.

This is _not_ a case of _smarks were right all along and now the whole world is starting to like these midgets as much as we do!_


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## Death Rider (May 18, 2011)

The XL 2 said:


> Death Rider said:
> 
> 
> > God the anti-smarks are annoying. If you are that stuck in the past you have the network. Times change.
> ...


If you think the world has not changed since the 80's and the 90's you are stuck in the past.


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## Tilon (Jun 27, 2019)

MJF gets a bigger pop for NOT diving than people get for actual dives.

Clearly, there are things the fans like more than the same dive for the quadrillionth time: Interesting characters.


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## The XL 2 (Sep 13, 2016)

LifeInCattleClass said:


> These guys built and started a whole business and brand based on their wrestling
> 
> No reason why they should change what brought them to the dance


A lot of lapsed fans have supported them because they want someone to challenge WWE. That doesn't mean they want what they're getting right now though.


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## The XL 2 (Sep 13, 2016)

Death Rider said:


> If you think the world has not changed since the 80's and the 90's you are stuck in the past.


The world changing does not have anything to do with national companies abandoning pro wrestling for this weird gymnastics high spot formula over the last 5 or so years. And clearly it isn't popular because wrestling has never been less popular.


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## Soul Rex (Nov 26, 2017)

Death Rider said:


> If you think the world has not changed since the 80's and the 90's you are stuck in the past.


The world changed but it didn't change to accept modern wrestling as its less popular than ever.

So what is your point?


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## Post-Modern Devil (Jan 26, 2010)

The XL 2 said:


> Nothing really changed. You guys hijacked the business and everyone stopped watching. The formula for successful pro wrestling hasn't changed at all.


Given how badly WWE and TNA fucked up every available opportunity to raise the profile of mainstream wrestling during the past _decade_, AEW might as well hijack wrestling & try to get things done their own way instead of listening to the old school ******* who already got their shit pushed in by McMahon & Bischoff twenty-something years ago, the size junkies who already had their biggest stronghold in the fabled "Land of the Giants" toppled by Punk and Bryan after those incompetent asswipes forgot to build any new stars after Cena and Batista, or the promo marks who's dream of a pseudo Attitude Era revival already happened with TNA under the direction of Hogan and Bischoff only to have that company go completely up in flames.


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## JerryMark (May 7, 2016)

Geeee said:


> Meh I'm willing to give this a pass because they obviously were running short on time and the finish was clearly rushed. Also, AEW wants you to hear about Darby Allin





Reggie Dunlop said:


> Except that 1, a lot of people have heard of Darby Allin (even more now). You might have too if you could get your head out if Vince’s ass long enough.
> 
> And 2, the point was to build up Darby, you know, like what they do when they want to make new stars, which they did. Jericho didn’t come out of that looking any weaker. It just further established him as a heel, and without another fucking promo. Imagine that.
> 
> People can’t figure out something as simple as that, it’s no wonder you’re all shitting on this thing. Durrrr, I don’t know what’s going on, durrrr, I needs more promos so somebody can tells me, durrrrr.


don't get me wrong, i like darby allin but unless you're an indy fan, you've never heard of the guy. build him up more than 3 weeks to make him credible rather than make you star champ look weak.

also, my head couldn't be any farther from vince's ass, believe me. wwe is literally unwatchable and has been for years. that's why i want aew to work.


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## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

Post-Modern Devil said:


> Given how badly WWE and TNA fucked up every available opportunity to raise the profile of mainstream wrestling during the past _decade_, AEW might as well hijack wrestling & try to get things done their own way instead of listening to the old school ******* who already got their shit pushed in by McMahon & Bischoff twenty-something years ago, the size junkies who already had their biggest stronghold in the fabled "Land of the Giants" toppled by Punk and Bryan after those incompetent asswipes forgot to build any new stars after Cena and Batista, or the promo marks who's dream of a pseudo Attitude Era revival already happened with TNA under the direction of Hogan and Bischoff only to have that company go completely up in flames.


Some hard truths here - all the other supposed ‘winning formulas’ have been done and beaten

AEW is doing shit their way


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## Reggie Dunlop (Nov 2, 2015)

JerryMark said:


> don't get me wrong, i like darby allin but unless you're an indy fan, you've never heard of the guy. build him up more than 3 weeks to make him credible rather than make you star champ look weak.
> 
> also, my head couldn't be any farther from vince's ass, believe me. wwe is literally unwatchable and has been for years. that's why i want aew to work.


Seems to be an awful lot of fans who know who he is. I mean, I'm kind of shocked at the reaction he gets from live fans for a guy I didn't think anybody's heard of before. 

But I don't think that made Jericho look weak at all, any more than any other heel champion who resorts to illegal tactics to win whether they need to or not. Ric Flair made an entire career of it. The point of that was to throw as many obstacles at Darby as they could and have him still look like he had a chance. Unlike what you'd see in WWE, where they'd just have had him sell for the whole match and then sneak in a bit of offense and a rollup for a near fall, they made Darby look like competitive. If you didn't see the match and just read the result, I can see how you'd think it made him look weak; but that wasn't the case from what I saw. You also got Jericho in the ring defending the title, instead of just talking about it. And you get heat on Hager. You get a title defense that's not necessarily ppv-worthy, but good enough for tv. Interim step to further develop both characters until the ppv matchup with a bigger name. 

And sorry about accusing you of being a Vince butt-boy ... it just seems that everything people are complaining about AEW not doing is exactly what WWE is doing. The constant illogical complaining by a select few around here has shortened my fuse. I mistook you for one of _them_ ... my bad. So apologies, and thanks for responding civilly.


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## CodyIsGod (Oct 23, 2019)

Soul Rex said:


> The world changed but it didn't change to accept modern wrestling as its less popular than ever.
> 
> So what is your point?


Then the world is wrong. Simple as that.

AEW isn't going to deliver interesting storylines and characters just to please you stupid McMahon marks, and if that means the ratings continue to fall off, then good. We don't need ratings. We've got heatless 20 minute matches.


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## King Kong Brody (Jan 21, 2018)

I'm not expecting perfection after 3 weeks. Or ever. I'd like to see better heel/face work, not just from the wrestlers but the bookers. I'm watching episodes 3 as we speak. So Cal Uncensored, who previously have come off as heels, enter the ring and get jumped from behind by the Lucha Bros, who had been faces. That's not a very face thing to do. They then run off like pussies when Scoprio Sky runs in. Again, faces don't attack from behind, don't run off, and heels don't make a 2 on 1 save usually. 

SCU then face the Best Friends and work as faces and Best Friends work kinda like heels, but still do their stupid hug spot, which gets the crowd cheering them and booing the faces. Just this opening segment and match was very confusing.

Decide who the heels and faces are, book them accordingly and stop heels doing things that will get them cheered. This will help them with the casual audience who don't know who the fuck the Best Friends are, or that they do youtube videos, they just see faces getting booed and heels getting cheered, and will be confused, and not dragged into the product.


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