# Jim Cornette Comments on Double or Nothing



## Erik.

Jim Cornette being Jim Cornette.

He also compared Omega to Hitler once. I wouldn't pay attention to anything he really says.


----------



## SMW

its always entertaining to hear jim cornettes opinion. at times it does get annoying. but its his opinion everyone is titled to their own.


----------



## deadcool

There is a lesson to be learned here.

AEW should stay away from the old timers of wrestling; Cornette, Prichard, Bischoff, and especially Vince Russo.


----------



## virus21

Cornette has pretty much hated everything about wrestling since 1990


----------



## Queen of Marks

Erik. said:


> Jim Cornette being Jim Cornette.
> 
> He also compared Omega to Hitler once. I wouldn't pay attention to anything he really says.



I would love to know the context of that comparison lol. I love Cornette I think he's hilarious. I agree with some of what he says and even think AEW would benefit by hiring him even though they've said they won't have a writing team


----------



## Beatles123

Tisk tisk... 

I had thought he'd learned by now. :armfold


----------



## Erik.

Queen of Marks said:


> I would love to know the context of that comparison lol. I love Cornette I think he's hilarious. I agree with some of what he says and even think AEW would benefit by hiring him even though they've said they won't have a writing team




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/888089909441032192


----------



## Patrick Sledge

Cornette didn't like something? Shocker.


----------



## Vic

I’m a bit disappointed Jim trashed this especially when he was supportive of All In. I like Cornette a lot and always want to hear his opinions even if I disagree. Hopefully his mind will be changed some over time.


----------



## jroc72191

but jim cornette shoots so much on russo! so other comments be damned! he isnt out of touch!


----------



## oleanderson89

He has personal issues with some of those wrestlers. Kevin Owens, Omega, Young Bucks, and a few others. As a wrestling fan, I am sure he would have been happy about a lot of the stuff that went on in the show.


----------



## LIL' WINNING FOOT

You guys keep giving these type of people attention when you can simply not do so.

Although not as bad as Russo, Cornette has similarities to him that are out of touch and passe in today's wrestling climate. When it comes to old time stories and specific booking shows from KF Commentaries, I can listen to the man all day but when it comes to his opinions on today's wrestling (or his tired Russo rants, tbh), I tune out.


----------



## ReekOfAwesomenesss

Listening at the moment. I don't agree at anything he says but I always love listening him.


----------



## deepelemblues

Some people aren't going to like aew and that will just have to be dealt with 

Getting pissy about it every time some name doesn't like aew isn't gonna get anywhere


----------



## Erik.

At least he knows how much of a star MJF is.

That can only bode well for MJF when he's getting unanimous praise by everyone from lapsed fans, to current day fans, to washed up fans like Cornette. The fact hes only 23 years old and is about to get national exposure on prime time television can only be good for him.


----------



## Genking48

Can't somebody write bullet points or something. I'd prefer reading his thoughts than listening atm.


----------



## Patrick Sledge

cornette is spot on about Alex Maurvez, though.


----------



## Queen of Marks

WINNING said:


> You guys keep giving these type of people attention when you can simply not do so.
> 
> Although not as bad as Russo, Cornette has similarities to him that are out of touch and passe in today's wrestling climate. When it comes to old time stories and specific booking shows from KF Commentaries, I can listen to the man all day but when it comes to his opinions on today's wrestling (or his tired Russo rants, tbh), I tune out.



I like Cornette. Whether I agree with his opinions or not I enjoy listening to him



Patrick Sledge said:


> cornette is spot on about Alex Maurvez, though.


I thought Maurvez was terribly dull. I really hope he won't be on weekly TV


----------



## patpat

Erik. said:


> Jim Cornette being Jim Cornette.
> 
> He also compared Omega to Hitler once. I wouldn't pay attention to anything he really says.


WHAT THE FUCK? :lol :lol :lol. do you have a link? I need to listen to this one 

Jesus god!was it in the days were key had a moustache? :lol


----------



## Queen of Marks

deepelemblues said:


> Some people aren't going to like aew and that will just have to be dealt with
> 
> Getting pissy about it every time some name doesn't like aew isn't gonna get anywhere



I don't really think anybody is getting pissy about it. This is a wrestling forum where we discuss wrestling.


----------



## Erik.

patpat said:


> WHAT THE FUCK? :lol :lol :lol. do you have a link? I need to listen to this one
> 
> Jesus god!was it in the days were key had a moustache? :lol


It was a tweet.

I posted it on page 1.


----------



## McNugget

Although I know he has probably blocked half of the entire userbase, I still take it as a great point of personal pride that Jim blocked me on Twitter.

Nobody gets to be the arbiter of what professional wrestling "should" be in 2019, least of all Jim fucking Cornette.


----------



## Disputed

People confuse Cornette being a good talker for Cornette having something to say. His opinion about modern wrestling is basically everything will suck until kayfabe magically comes back to life.


----------



## Patrick Sledge

I like Jim and his passion, but this is a guy who still thinks Terry Funk vs JKL in an empty arena match is still the best wrestling match of all time.

Granted, it was a good match and groundbreaking for its' time...best match of all time? No.

I agree with Jim so far about the battle royal being a pile of shit. He's still talking about it thus far lol


----------



## patpat

Erik. said:


> It was a tweet.
> 
> I posted it on page 1.


found it! 

what a terrible, terrible thing to say to a guy but at the same time it's so funny. Jesus I wouldn't even compare my worst enemy to hitler :lol 
i am sure it has more to do with Kenny deleting that roh event, it can't just be him wrestling a doll and 9 years old in a funny ddt fight no ones cared about :lol 
god :lol


----------



## Patrick Sledge

"so now we're supposed to pretend that a fuckin guy painted yellow, a guy with no fuckin legs, and a guy covered in baby oil are gonna compete for the AEW world title"


----------



## Wridacule

Weather I agree or not, I can listen to Jim rant for hours. I have been here lately while grinding the towers of time in mk11 (fuck you nrs! I just wanna see skarlet's luscious lips!) So as soon as don happened I've been combing the net trying to hear his thoughts. 

I'm in tears laughing thinking about him calling omega Hitler. Kenny is so nice, I can't see how that didn't hurt his feelings at least a bit..


----------



## Patrick Sledge

Wridacule said:


> Weather I agree or not, I can listen to Jim rant for hours. I have been here lately while grinding the towers of time in mk11 (fuck you nrs! I just wanna see skarlet's luscious lips!) So as soon as don happened I've been combing the net trying to hear his thoughts.
> 
> I'm in tears laughing thinking about him calling omega Hitler. Kenny is so nice, I can't see how that didn't hurt his feelings at least a bit..


Listen to the damn podcast. It's a riot. I love Cornette going off on this PPV. I don't agree with him, but good lord is it comedic gold


----------



## simon70

Cornette is a dipshit


----------



## Chan Hung

Cornette does MLW, of course hes gonna say negative stuff of another company :heston


----------



## Freelancer

I love listening to Cornette and agree with a good bit of his opinions, but the man's living in the past.


----------



## Buster Baxter

Lmao


----------



## sim8

Erik. said:


> Queen of Marks said:
> 
> 
> 
> I would love to know the context of that comparison lol. I love Cornette I think he's hilarious. I agree with some of what he says and even think AEW would benefit by hiring him even though they've said they won't have a writing team
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/888089909441032192
Click to expand...

What the fuck. That makes no sense.


----------



## Patrick Sledge

I love cornette. "now we got SCU vs the Strong Hearts from OWE, the chinese wrestling promotion but these guys are fucking japanese, what the fuck, more on that in a minute"


----------



## RiverFenix

Patrick Sledge said:


> "so now we're supposed to pretend that a fuckin guy painted yellow, a guy with no fuckin legs, and a guy covered in baby oil are gonna compete for the AEW world title"


He's not wrong on this. Making a pre-show BR the the gutter level talent outside of MJF and a hotshotted in Page to be the other competitor to crown the first ever AEW Champion was a terrible decision. 

It diminishes the title to even think Sunny Daze or Nakazawa should even have such an opportunity for the spot. 

It was acceptable when it was just for a future title shot as it could have been a future television ME sorta deal. 

But to crown your first title holder there was 23 candidates if you combine the two matches - Jericho, Omega and then all the CBR competitors - No Legs, Sunny Daze, Nakazawa, Cutler, Kassidy, Havoc, BPJ, Spears, Glacier, Gunn, Jungle Boy, Romero, Mar-quen, Stunt, Kiss, Dreamer, Orange Cassidy, Janela, Luchasaurus, Page and MJF. 

That is the list of inaugural contenders for your world title. That was the best you could get to sign up for the CBR and chance as your companie's title. 

It's Kayfabe embarrassing and makes the title look like nobody really wants it outside the BTE bros. 

Why not bring in freelancers one one-off contracts to spice up the name value? 

Why would Moxley not be part? Choosing to attack Jericho and Omega after their match instead when he could have been part of the CBR and won a title shot against the winner of Jericho/Omega? 

I know PAC vs Page was supposed to be the other title eliminator and PAC pulled out. But there is no excuse to put so much added prestige on the CBR match when that was the cast of characters in it. 

Have Page vs Mystery Opponent and have that be Moxley. And if you still don't want Moxley here (say Jericho needed to win, and you don't want Mox vs Jericho as it's too WWE right away) and thus Page needed to win - bring in a freelancer indie name for the surprise one of. Hell use Darby Allin - where was he anyways?


----------



## Disputed

Freelancer said:


> I love listening to Cornette and agree with a good bit of his opinions, but the man's living in the past.


I like listening to him as well, he's got the gift of gab, I just make sure I never take him seriously


----------



## nWo4Lyfe420

Cornette and Russo are 2 sides of the same coin. That's why they hate each other so much.


----------



## Rex Rasslin

It's fucking glorious :lmao

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tfCnb2G6g80&feature=youtu.be&t=1203


----------



## DJ Punk

Has this guy had one positive thing to say about anything wrestling related in recent years that wasn't about the revival (dull as fuck generic tag team)?


----------



## patpat

Patrick Sledge said:


> I love cornette. "now we got SCU vs the Strong Hearts from OWE, the chinese wrestling promotion but these guys are fucking japanese, what the fuck, more on that in a minute"


 he is saying that stupid shit but aew is a company where the top guys are two Canadians. in the tag team divisions one of the best tag team are Mexicans. he makes no sense. 



DetroitRiverPhx said:


> He's not wrong on this. Making a pre-show BR the the gutter level talent outside of MJF and a hotshotted in Page to be the other competitor to crown the first ever AEW Champion was a terrible decision.
> 
> It diminishes the title to even think Sunny Daze or Nakazawa should even have such an opportunity for the spot.
> 
> It was acceptable when it was just for a future title shot as it could have been a future television ME sorta deal.
> 
> But to crown your first title holder there was 23 candidates if you combine the two matches - Jericho, Omega and then all the CBR competitors - No Legs, Sunny Daze, Nakazawa, Cutler, Kassidy, Havoc, BPJ, Spears, Glacier, Gunn, Jungle Boy, Romero, Mar-quen, Stunt, Kiss, Dreamer, Orange Cassidy, Janela, Luchasaurus, Page and MJF.
> 
> That is the list of inaugural contenders for your world title. That was the best you could get to sign up for the CBR and chance as your companie's title.
> 
> It's Kayfabe embarrassing and makes the title look like nobody really wants it outside the BTE bros.
> 
> Why not bring in freelancers one one-off contracts to spice up the name value?
> 
> Why would Moxley not be part? Choosing to attack Jericho and Omega after their match instead when he could have been part of the CBR and won a title shot against the winner of Jericho/Omega?
> 
> I know PAC vs Page was supposed to be the other title eliminator and PAC pulled out. But there is no excuse to put so much added prestige on the CBR match when that was the cast of characters in it.
> 
> Have Page vs Mystery Opponent and have that be Moxley. And if you still don't want Moxley here (say Jericho needed to win, and you don't want Mox vs Jericho as it's too WWE right away) and thus Page needed to win - bring in a freelancer indie name for the surprise one of. Hell use Darby Allin - where was he anyways?


now let's go all over this because it seems a loot of people don't understand the effect of wwe whipping the fuck out of the Indies and PWG. THIS , this battle royale is one of those consequence , because if wwe didn't rip appart the Indies, all those guys, the ec3, the ricochet, black, ciampa ( who are being wasted in the main roster) would be right there in that Battle Royale. they did with what they could find, and making the BR important isn't a terrible decision. it's called making everything mean something, you can't have the Battle Royale for no reason. 
now why cornette's comment is dumb is simple, in the World Cup, there are a lot of random shitty teams in the competition. no one freaks out saying they shouldn't be there, thats the point. the big talent are going to set themselves appart from the nonames. 
these dudes are working with no tv, with a ppv they build on youtube, and had to use indy talents after wwe basically ripped appart the indy scene buying everyone and their mothers, you can't ask them the impossible. 
"it makes the title looks like nobody wants it" 
bro..;;Jericho vs omega was for a contender title. the rest of the roster are either women or tag teams :lol , everyone else in this Battle Royale were low card, mid card at best. and if cody dared put himself in this Battle Royale to get an opportunity , people would be out raging about him being triple h 2.0 

again don't ask these guys the impossible , everyone will have to accept that the indy scene at this point is living on life support in term of midcard talents that are ready to go, with nxt, nxt uk and 205 live....wwe owns almost every single huge indy mid carder right now. last year's nxt is basically the PWG whole roster, people praised nxt for having such a great roster, well I guess everyone know what was the consequence of that.

as for your question about why moxley wouldn't be in the Battle Royale, because him coming at the moment he did had way! more impact on the show and audience and made him look like the biggest star on the planet. closing the show with moxley hands in the air standing on the chips after the main event is a symbolic imagery they wanted to have. that's their decision ( a better one for moxley). simple for me, moxley in kayfabe doesn't have the power to "choose" he wants to be in the Battle Royale. and maybe making him appear after the main event instead of a preshow establish him more and makes more of a buzz. simple too.


----------



## RiverFenix

Then don't have the battle royale. It was for a future title shot - fine. But 15 of those names had no real reason to be booked at all.

Why would Guevara and Sabian want a singles match against each other when they could be in the CBR for a title shot? Same with SCU - put all of Daniels, Sky and Kaz in the CBR. Have those five replace Daze, Nakazawa, Cutler, Stunt and Orange Cassidy. SCU could have pulled double duty and then lose against Stronghearts as a result. Pull out No Legs Thomas - Where was Darby Allin? "Allin at All In" - Darby was made to be there. Only thing I can figure is that he's still under Evolve contract or something.

Instead the CBR was booked to be kooky and goofy like it was going to be on an episode of BTE or something.


----------



## llj

I'm excited about the opportunities in AEW, but I am still in wait and see mode before jumping on the bandwagon. I'm obviously very anti-WWE lately for anyone who has seen my posts, but I think we need more sample size on AEW. DoN was an OK show, not GREAT, but I loved how they came out trying to throw a punch and send a signal.


----------



## patpat

do we know Darby Allin's personal schedule? 
why would SCU be put in the Battle Royale when they have been teasing their match ( which is a testament to their awe engagement ) for literally months, and even went to china to put the match over? so everyone can scream "omg after the pac thing? its such a wwe thing lolilol" , again why pull out no leg when they already teased him in road to double or nothing and had a video about him?...
the battle royal allowed people to notice guys like jungle boy, Luchasaurus ( who they signed afterwards). 
why would Guevara and kib want a match again each other..ok delete their match, what do you put it in there? you know they had to put on their preshow and it had to be a certain time right? why do I need a reason for those two guys fighting? it's to showcase a one on one cruiserweight fight...they have no tv show, not every fight should make sense. 
and having SCU pull double duty would be dumb, higher risk of them being hurt and their performance against the guys from the Chinese promotion would be less impressive...it was the opener and it had to be great...so what does beating scu does for the owe guys when we know the scu were tired?.....
it makes even less sense...


----------



## DOTL

He made some good points, but like every out-of-touch old man, blamed the vidya gaems for what was clearly just green booking.


----------



## RiverFenix

SO SCU would rather wrestle Cima, Lindaman and T-Hawk rather than fighting for a World Title match? Pulling double duty in a BR and then a 6-man tag wouldn't be an issue physically. 

When the best AEW could kayfabe sign to wrestle in a BR title eliminator match is people like Sunny Daze, Brandon Cutler, Michael Nakazawa, No Legs Thomas, 55 yr old Glacier, Marko Stunt, Orange Cassidy it devalues the title. They had 21 spots to fill and this is the best that wanted a shot at the AEW title.


----------



## Erik.

DetroitRiverPhx said:


> SO SCU would rather wrestle Cima, Lindaman and T-Hawk rather than fighting for a World Title match? Pulling double duty in a BR and then a 6-man tag wouldn't be an issue physically.
> 
> When the best AEW could kayfabe sign to wrestle in a BR title eliminator match is people like Sunny Daze, Brandon Cutler, Michael Nakazawa, No Legs Thomas, 55 yr old Glacier, Marko Stunt, Orange Cassidy it devalues the title. They had 21 spots to fill and this is the best that wanted a shot at the AEW title.


None of those were going to win the match and compete for title. Just like the retards the WWE put in the Royal Rumble aren't going to win and we KNOW they aren't going to win.

Moxley was probably scheduled to win it originally and instead they went with Page when PAC couldn't make it.


----------



## Lesnar Turtle

I'm sure Mr Wrestling II did occasional guest commentary in Mid South and maybe Georgia too. Not to mention Bob Armstrong was the commissioner of Smokey Mountain while assuming a second identity as a masked wrestler there. 

...and while i'm not exactly the biggest fan of the Bucks, they have clearly already drawn quite a few dimes. 

Jim - entertaining, but take him with a pinch of salt.


----------



## Piper's Pit

Jim's been right about just everything when he's talked about the direction the business is going in over the last twenty years.

And for those getting triggered and dismissing what he said about AEW let's just wait see how they do when their TV show starts and the ratings start coming in.


----------



## patpat

bro you don't pull out a scu vs owe match that you advertised for months...in kayfabe they don't decide who they want to fight.
and making them pull double duty in the BR wouldn't be an issue? how do you know that? do you have any information on this matter?....
and no it doesn't devalue the title because the first title shot will be Y2J vs hangman page with people like Kenny Omega dn John moxley in the main event scene fighting for it. that's quite simple for me, it's like saying having Qatar play in the World Cup devalue the World Cup because Qatar is a shit team...
and again the battle royale was to get "an opportunity" at first before pac pulled out...idk man but with the time they had trying to rework their whole schedule that way would fuck up the event, last minute changes kept at the minimum. I don't want to see a mess with guys like scu fighting in the Battle Royale just so they could be in the opener...



Piper's Pit said:


> Jim's been right about just everything when he's talked about the direction the business is going in over the last twenty years.
> 
> And for those getting triggered and dismissing what he said about AEW let's just wait see how they do when their TV show starts and the ratings start coming in.


dude can't even get his facts right but sure he is gonna predict the future, saying the bucks havent or can't draw dimes is factually wrong....


----------



## headstar

jroc72191 said:


> but jim cornette shoots so much on russo! so other comments be damned! he isnt out of touch!


Cornette is a bias hypocrite. He goes after Russo for the Oklahoma gimmick in WCW (a gimmick born in WWE), but Cornette has no problem with Vince McMahon mocking Jim Ross's bell's palsy and colon cancer surgery.


----------



## Obfuscation

Imagine listening to this and actually getting upset. I enjoyed the PPV & I enjoy Cornette's work. Officially a paradox now, by casual thinking.

It's not like I have to agree with anything he said. Last year when he put over Rousey's debut match at WM, a match I hated, I certainly wasn't on the same page, but oh well, I was listening to him for his thoughts. Got what I listened for. I'm more than sure there were things JR himself even would have liked to see "differently" at Double or Nothing too, and he's working there. The biz is filled with many different opinions on how things can be done. A new wrestling promotion is gonna have its critiques to go along with the praise.


----------



## V-Trigger

Stop giving him attention.


----------



## kingnoth1n

Too bad everything this guy touches turns into shit, I might take him seriously.


----------



## Mugging of Cena

I enjoyed DoN but Cornette's rant on the PPV is hilarious. I just take him for what he is, an entertainer. Dude has me howling right now. :lmao


----------



## Greatsthegreats

Queen of Marks said:


> Called Kenny Omega a slightly better Tom McGee and the Bob Ross of promos. Said the Young Bucks will never draw a dime in mainstream wrestling, Excalibur wearing his mask on commentary makes their company look like a joke. Etc. Etc. Etc.


I myself don't fully understand why the commentator needs to wear a mask

Who's Bob Ross?

and maybe the young bucks can't draw MUCH on their own but neither could Kevin Nash but then again saying they never draw money is like saying that the NWO doesn't count for Nash or that the Bullet Club didn't count for the Bucks

or that it doesn't count that All In sold every seat in a 11,000 seat arena after The Bucks were advertised _or at the very least _before the full card was even announced


----------



## BlackieDevil

Hi OP, please tell the entire story. JC praised a lot of stuff that he liked and critiqued the stuff he didn't like. It's not like he spent 5 hours bashing DoN.


----------



## DOTL

BlackieDevil said:


> Hi OP, please tell the entire story. JC praised a lot of stuff that he liked and critiqued the stuff he didn't like. It's not like he spent 5 hours bashing DoN.


The podcast was an hour and three-quarters. 80% of it was him hating on it.


----------



## BlackieDevil

DOTL said:


> The podcast was an hour and three-quarters. 80% of it was him hating on it.


He had his reasons and has a right to his opinion. The thread is about how he criticized KO. Why can't the OP mention the good shit as well?

I agree with JC. KO sucks.


----------



## Death Rider

Only time I want to hear Jim Cornette is on commentary for MLW. Otherwise he comes across as an angry old man stuck in the past and I know too many of them in real life for me to want to listen to one in my spare time


----------



## Patrick Sledge

I agreed with everything JC said about Dreamer and Sonny Kiss.

"this transgender from the fucking bahamas...."

"tommy dreamer is too nice. but everything dreamer does these days is a fucking joke..." 

JC loves to bury people. I hope his tombstone is just a shovel lol


----------



## Arktik

He put over the stuff that was good and shit on the goofy bullshit that may seriously harm AEW's long term potential. He's not wrong. If they tone down the stupid garbage this promotion could be great. Just because their stupid garbage is different than Vince's stupid garbage does not make it good. AEW has a world of potential, do not screw it up by trying to be indy-riffic.


----------



## LifeInCattleClass

I always make sure to avoid Jim as much as possible.... so, not sure what i was hoping to find here


----------



## Cas Ras

Can't comment on just a some negative tidbits (I assume he liked some things too and was as usual sometimes but not purely polemic), I will hear into it later
Here's the thing:


----------



## Reggie Dunlop

I probably respect Cornette's opinions on the business more than anyone else's. But every once in awhile he gets a little too stuck in the past. There are definitely lessons and traditions in the history of the business that will always hold true, but at the same time it also has to evolve with the times to some extent. Look at any professional sport now and 30 or 40 years ago -- they're all doing things now that people only dreamed of back then, and without completely abandoning their pasts. Wrestling is no different. 

As for his rants on Russo, I find them hilarious as fuck and never get tired of them. Cornette at least contributed big things to the business; Russo is just a leach who happened to be tagging along for the ride once at just the right time and insists on taking all the credit for it.


----------



## EMGESP

I respect Cornette, but clearly wrestling has moved on from his archaic view on how wrestling should be and he can't handle it. If he couldn't find any enjoyment from that PPV then he probably doesn't like wrestling as much as he thinks he does.


----------



## patpat

kenny Hitlermega :lol :lol


----------



## Arktik

Can anyone in this thread point to a specific issue that Cornette addressed on his podcast or are they just going to dance around the point because they are upset? That kind of behavior is something I would expect from a WWE stan, don't be that way for AEW. Whether you agree with what he says or not, fairly represent what is said and then refute it.



EMGESP said:


> I respect Cornette, but clearly wrestling has moved on from his archaic view on how wrestling should be and he can't handle it. If he couldn't find any enjoyment from that PPV then he probably doesn't like wrestling as much as he thinks he does.


You clearly didn't listen then. He put over MJF, Page, Moxley, Jericho, Cody and Dustin. He found it frustrating that the stuff that really was good was, in his opinion, tarnished by silly garbage interspersed between the highlights.


----------



## EMGESP

Arktik said:


> You clearly didn't listen then. He put over MJF, Page, Moxley, Jericho, Cody and Dustin. He found it frustrating that the stuff that really was good was, in his opinion, tarnished by silly garbage interspersed between the highlights.


You can't expect a wrestling show to do everything you want. Its irrational to expect every match or segment is going to be up your alley. He should be happy that AEW isn't trying to be a carbon copy of either WWE or TNA.


----------



## patpat

Arktik said:


> Can anyone in this thread point to a specific issue that Cornette addressed on his podcast or are they just going to dance around the point because they are upset? That kind of behavior is something I would expect from a WWE stan, don't be that way for AEW. Whether you agree with what he says or not, fairly represent what is said and then refute it.


a good commentator is unacceptable because he wears a mask ( which is a tribute to his career as a wrestler and legit gives him a little story , personality and make him different?), all the garbage shit he complain about were in the damn preshow and they were there for a reason.


----------



## Laughable Chimp

Reggie Dunlop said:


> I probably respect Cornette's opinions on the business more than anyone else's. But every once in awhile he gets a little too stuck in the past. There are definitely lessons and traditions in the history of the business that will always hold true, but at the same time it also has to evolve with the times to some extent. Look at any professional sport now and 30 or 40 years ago -- they're all doing things now that people only dreamed of back then, and without completely abandoning their pasts. Wrestling is no different.
> 
> As for his rants on Russo, I find them hilarious as fuck and never get tired of them. Cornette at least contributed big things to the business; Russo is just a leach who happened to be tagging along for the ride once at just the right time and insists on taking all the credit for it.


Eh, that's debatable. Russo was head writer for the WWE during the first part of the AE as we all know. Saying that Russo did nothing and just happened to be along for the ride to benefit from it seems a tad hyperbolic.


----------



## Patrick Sledge

Laughable Chimp said:


> Eh, that's debatable. Russo was head writer for the WWE during the first part of the AE as we all know. Saying that Russo did nothing and just happened to be along for the ride to benefit from it seems a tad hyperbolic.


THIS IS A JUDY BAGWELL ON A FAWKLIFT MATCH


----------



## Tag89

cornette isn't always correct but he's never boring


----------



## Arktik

EMGESP said:


> You can't expect a wrestling show to do everything you want. Its irrational to expect every match or segment is going to be up your alley. He should be happy that AEW isn't trying to be a carbon copy of either WWE or TNA.


The point is not that I, or Jim Cornette, should like everything personally. The point he is making, and that I want all of you to understand, is that if the product comes off as hokey, phony or ridiculous it puts a cap on just how many people are going to be seriously invested in the promotion. Especially if the phoniness comes from "top guys" like Omega or the Young Bucks. As much trash as the WWE put on the air during the Attitude Era you knew business was about to pick up when Stone Cold Steve Austin's music hit and when he did "silly" during his heel run in the invasion the fans left in droves and never came back. 



patpat said:


> a good commentator is unacceptable because he wears a mask ( which is a tribute to his career as a wrestler and legit gives him a little story , personality and make him different?), all the garbage shit he complain about were in the damn preshow and they were there for a reason.


He did bash Excalibur wearing a mask, but he specifically said it is because he didn't clue in the viewers as to why. Cornette stated that he wasn't like it was Mil Mascaras in Mexico where everyone knew who he was. If there are new viewers, and you certainly hope there are, then either give us a reason why he is wearing a mask or don't wear it. 

Also the "garbage" in the pre-show was in a match to determine who contends for their World title. I get that plans changed and that was a late switch, but 2/3rds of the people in the ring had no business being in a number one contenders match. MJF and Page came off as stars, the rest of the match could easily turn off viewers who don't get it.


----------



## The XL 2

I like AEW and I appreciate that the Bucks played a part in getting it started but Jim is right, the Bucks will never be a player in a national promotion. Kenny, he obviously has a personal problem with.


----------



## patpat

"the bucks will never be players in a national promotion" 
like I see were you all are coming from, but could you elaborate why? because as of now the only thing I see is them selling a shit lot of t shirt...( and no it's not the role of the tag team division to be the biggest draw, it's he job of the main eventers.)
cornette also said Kevin Owens would get nowhere and would be a failure...and he wasn't really right about it...


----------



## ellthom

I like Cornette and I respect his opinion... I mean I think he is 100% wrong but moving on....


----------



## DOTL

BlackieDevil said:


> He had his reasons and has a right to his opinion. The thread is about how he criticized KO. Why can't the OP mention the good shit as well?
> 
> I agree with JC. KO sucks.


I was just stating a fact. No need to get defensive. 


Anyway, KO isn't my favorite guy in the world, but I don't suspect my tastes align with JC's either. The dude goes on and on about how "serious" things need to be but is known for a gimmick that involved a tennis racket. If wrestling isn't nestled in that narrow little space he deems acceptable then it's automatically bad. 

I think, as I said earlier, that he made good points, but he comes off as an old man, not in a good way, with a terrible Two's distaste for everything.


----------



## TD Stinger

Listened to his review. I'll say this, even if I completely disagree with what he says, I'm still entertained, like many others.

And there were some things I agreed with him on. The Battle Royal mainly had a few too many silly gimmicks and guys who flat out just did not belong to be in a match for to determine 1/2 of the first ever AEW Title match. And even the way they introduced the wrestlers, I mean I know who guys like Havoc and Janela are, but that doesn't mean everybody does. Just a little too quick for my tastes.

And other little things I did agree with.

But yes, often times it is just him complaining about stuff he's not current with or hating it because it's not what he's used to. And his hate for Kenny and The Bucks, especially Kenny. He keeps saying "The Bucks will never draw" and things of that nature but yet they're the main reason AEW, a company on TNT, exists. And this idea that Jericho carried Omega? Did he not see Omega having to bump his ass off and taking all the big risks in the match. So yeah, that does get ridiculous.


----------



## Hephaesteus

Cornette will always hate Omega and the Young bucks, its his thing at this point. Some of the stuff though I do agree with, too many silly gimmicks in that battle royal being the main one.


----------



## CHAMPIONSHIPS

The Bob Ross of promos is sort of accurate for Omega and should be taken as a massive compliment seeing as how Bob Ross is a popular and beloved cultural icon lol

Omega has that same intimate way of speaking, I've been saying


----------



## Geeee

So, I decided to listen to the podcast and he wasn't all wrong, especially in regards to the battle royale and Alex Marvez. In addition, he loved MJF, Cody/Dustin and the debut of Jon Moxley. Also, Cornette is way too committed to hating Kenny Omega to give up on it now, plus it gets him heat and he wants heat because he's been a heel for 40 years LOL.

Oh yeah and I think Kenny no showed a Ring of Honor event when Cornette was working there.


----------



## ReekOfAwesomenesss

He is right about the Bucks needing a beating to a pulp to climb back though. We always see them fly around, going circles around people. Some team needs to catch and maul them to start a hot angle.


----------



## Jupiter Jack Daniels

Haven't listened to the podcast but judging by what I've read of his review, I definitely can agree with his take on the Casino Battle Royale. More so (and I'm not sure if this was one of his talking points) due to the fact that it's going to be an annual thing (think Royal Rumble) and, as the saying goes, you get one chance to make a first impression.


I had no problem with the involvement of Orange Cassidy, as his shtick was done in a believable way and a contrast from what I've seen of him in the indies. I had a big problem with the involvement of the amputee. Nothing against him, as I don't know him or his story, but that didn't need to happen and made the match look very "indie show, Wrestlemania weekend" to me.


But, to me, the big issue with the match was the lack of credible participants. Seems like that should've been the main event, featuring the big stars (some of those battle royal participants could've had matches on the undercard/pre-show) and the crowning of an inaugural champion. You could do the same angle that closed the show, while also giving MJF & Hangman some shine, indicative of the companies future. Honestly, I have no problem with anyone completely shitting on the match.


And I'm positive he had an issue with, apparently, the Super Smash Bros. debut because I was left confused and put off by that and I remember these guys (just haven't seen them in a while). If so, I'm with him on that, as I thought that was terrible.



But, a lot of the other stuff he seemed to have a problem with is a bit much, too me. Issue with the female referee not looking tough (because Brian Hildebrand did?). The usage of a "transvestite". The representatives of a Chinese wrestling promotion being Japanese (are you fucking serious?). A commentator wearing a mask. I can't imagine he had anything good to say about Best Friends vs. Angelico/Jack (assuming he remembers Chuck's grenade spot from PWG). He definitely wasn't hot on Lucha Bros vs. Young Bucks. And he probably towed the line between completely shitting on the main event because of Omega and giving Chris Jericho his props.


Cornette's criticisms, especially with these guys, seem to be far from objective and even further from constructive. I'll give him credit, since AEW was announced, he was surprisingly optimistic, to the point of defending them against Brian Last (who seems to despise modern wrestling even more than Cornette). But, with some of these guys, he just refuses to acknowledge positively, largely due to something from the past, where they made a mockery out of his beloved business.


That being said, I am entertained by his "gatekeeper" gimmick. But, I've also come to realize that, at the end of the day, he's really not that different from "The Archbishop of Talentbury". Both have their defenders, their detractors and a rather antiquated view of what the modern day fan wants. Their way is the only way.


----------



## Beatles123

Jim is one of those old dinosaures like Nash and Al Snow that wouldn't know what's cool about wrestling today if it bit them in the ass. Their doctrines are best suited going the way of the dodo and the sooner that happens, the better. Every company Jim has worked for in the last 20 years (whether deservedly so or not) has fired him, and with opinions like these still being so prevalant in his wrestling ideology, I'm hard pressed to think MLW won't be the next name on the increasingly long list of places he's burned bridges with.

Not that i WANT that to happen. When Jim is at the announce desk or shooting on Russo I love him to death, but sadly I find myself agreeing with him less and less these days. He's slowly becoming everything he hated about the industry in '96/'97 when he lambasted WCW over Roddy Piper and his bum hip. 

It's a shame, but it is what it is. As I said: People like JC are now part of an old mindset that needs to be erased.


----------



## Dixie

Jim Cornette is a negative person with a disgusting personality who takes the wrestling business *WAY* too seriously.

He's held a grudge for 20+ years against Vince Russo who is a very down to earth, good person. Russo has continually tried to bury the hatchet with this goof but, the old mark continues to refuse to keep himself relevant.

I have no respect for Jim Cornette.


----------



## Beatles123

Dixie said:


> Jim Cornette is a negative person with a disgusting personality who takes the wrestling business *WAY* too seriously.
> 
> He's held a grudge for 20+ years against Vince Russo who is a very down to earth, good person. Russo has continually tried to bury the hatchet with this goof but, the old mark continues to refuse to keep himself relevant.
> 
> I have no respect for Jim Cornette.


I'll bash Cornette but I can't bring myself to defend Russo to do it. That's like asking me to staple my eyelids shut so I can rescue a kitten up a tree. :Hutz


----------



## Arktik

Dixie said:


> Jim Cornette is a negative person with a disgusting personality who takes the wrestling business *WAY* too seriously.
> 
> He's held a grudge for 20+ years against Vince Russo who is a very down to earth, good person. Russo has continually tried to bury the hatchet with this goof but, the old mark continues to refuse to keep himself relevant.
> 
> I have no respect for Jim Cornette.


Are you joking with that Russo line? This guy has stabbed people in the back to get ahead in every promotion he has ever worked for. He is a known and proven liar and conman.


----------



## Bryan Jericho

Some good points and some not good points by Jim, but always a great listen.


----------



## looper007

Jim when he sticks to wrestling in the past is a great listen. Once 90's wrestling hits, he feels like that angry old man screaming at people saying "Back in my day"

He hates Omega and the Bucks and that will never change, both have different takes on the wrestling business plus the Bucks, Zayn and Owens didn't take Cornette's shit in ROH. So it's definitely a grudge there. To say Jericho carried Omega twice now, is beyond silly that you can't take his opinion serious. 

Jim it's no longer the 70's and 80's Memphis wrestling, wake the fuck up!!!.


----------



## patpat

it's so obvious even more obvious at DON that omega is carrying y2j in those matches..


----------



## looper007

patpat said:


> it's so obvious even more obvious at DON that omega is carrying y2j in those matches..


Jericho is one of Cornette's boy's and Omega cause he wrestled a kid in his early career is a bridge burner plus he's one of the boy's with The Young Bucks, means he's enemy number 1. It's just parody now with Cornette and given him this attention is beyond silly. 

This is a guy who never booked a successful company, the ratings where down when he was in WCW and WWE and he nearly ran out all the talent from ROH. Plus his own company went in the shitter. And Everyone takes his advice like it's gospel.


----------



## birthday_massacre

Queen of Marks said:


> Called Kenny Omega a slightly better Tom McGee and the Bob Ross of promos. Said the Young Bucks will never draw a dime in mainstream wrestling, Excalibur wearing his mask on commentary makes their company look like a joke. Etc. Etc. Etc.
> 
> 
> I don't know why Cornette can't accept the fact that there's different styles of wrestling. In fact, I think AEW showcasing different styles will give them an edge over WWE. You won't be able to see stars like Havoc on RAW, it makes All Elite unique and helps them stand out.
> 
> 
> Thoughts and opinions???


Cornette is great to listen to about the past when it comes to wrestling but he is clueless when it comes to current wrestling and the future of wrestling.



Beatles123 said:


> Jim is one of those old dinosaures like Nash and Al Snow that wouldn't know what's cool about wrestling today if it bit them in the ass. Their doctrines are best suited going the way of the dodo and the sooner that happens, the better. Every company Jim has worked for in the last 20 years (whether deservedly so or not) has fired him, and with opinions like these still being so prevalant in his wrestling ideology, I'm hard pressed to think MLW won't be the next name on the increasingly long list of places he's burned bridges with.
> 
> Not that i WANT that to happen. When Jim is at the announce desk or shooting on Russo I love him to death, but sadly I find myself agreeing with him less and less these days. He's slowly becoming everything he hated about the industry in '96/'97 when he lambasted WCW over Roddy Piper and his bum hip.
> 
> It's a shame, but it is what it is. As I said: People like JC are now part of an old mindset that needs to be erased.


Exactly, the one old timer that gets it is Dutch Mantel.


----------



## Beatles123

birthday_massacre said:


> Cornette is great to listen to about the past when it comes to wrestling but he is clueless when it comes to current wrestling and the future of wrestling.
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly, the one old timer that gets it is Dutch Mantel.


Well I dunno about him being the only one. I think Scott Hall, Raven & DDP are great too. Raven needs to be hired as a booker in AEW


----------



## Queen of Marks

https://anchor.fm/QoM/episodes/AEW-...ts--Concerns--The-Queen-of-Marks-ep--1-e46q8u

A link to my podcast. This is the first episode and a work in progress. If anyone is interested in being a guest and discussing some wrasslin with me let me know!


----------



## PresidentGasman

Fuck Cornette, claims to be a tolerant liberal then calls Sonny Kiss a bunch of homophobic slurs, biggest hypocrite in the industry.


----------



## RKing85

I could listen to Jim Cornette talk about pre 1997 wrestling forever.

Not much interest at all in his post 1997 wrestling opinions. Some hold water, but most don't.


----------



## DOTL

Beatles123 said:


> I'll bash Cornette but I can't bring myself to defend Russo to do it. That's like asking me to staple my eyelids shut so I can rescue a kitten up a tree. :Hutz


I would have said climbing a tree bare butt naked to get a cat out of a tree, but I get your point.


----------



## The Wood

Cornette raises very valid and on-point criticisms for anyone who actually listens and doesn't just go to the old straw-man of "Cornette hates new stuff." Still the smartest dude in wrestling.


----------



## jordyjames26

Cornette was spot on about most of the ppv. The bucks have no chance outside of diehard hardcore fan base, the battle royal was an embarrassment. Moxley, Rhodes, Omega need to be isolated from the indy geeks as soon as possible. The man knows wrestling

Sent from my SM-J810Y using Tapatalk


----------



## ScottishPsychopath

I like listening to Cornette. I don't agree with everything he says, but he's always worth listening to just for the entertainment value.
At least he's honest and speaks his mind. Which after years and years of listening to prominent people in the wrestling business shill for WWE, is actually really refreshing.


----------



## li/<o

I am a fan of Jim Cornette, but I think he is over reacting. 

I am honest and I wont lie Double or Nothing wasnt mind blowing, however it was overall good. Its just a starter company so give it time it will grow. You can't expect in one show that its going to pin point if the company will fail or succeed. Give it time and see how things unfold. 

Also to add its a new era wrestling has changed. Cornette needs to see that times changes so you gota just change with time.


----------



## MontyCora

Won't draw a dime? Pretty sure the PPV buys shut him up real fast.


----------



## The Wood

*Sigh* I can't believe I have to do this on the AEW board, where I'd be hoping people would be more intelligent. 



Queen of Marks said:


> Called Kenny Omega a slightly better Tom McGee and the Bob Ross of promos. Said the Young Bucks will never draw a dime in mainstream wrestling, Excalibur wearing his mask on commentary makes their company look like a joke. Etc. Etc. Etc.
> 
> 
> I don't know why Cornette can't accept the fact that there's different styles of wrestling. In fact, I think AEW showcasing different styles will give them an edge over WWE. You won't be able to see stars like Havoc on RAW, it makes All Elite unique and helps them stand out.
> 
> 
> Thoughts and opinions???


He said he reminds him physically of Tom Magee, which isn't an insult. Magee was also a gymnast which would also stir up those thoughts. He doesn't like Omega because of the goofy counterproductive shit Omega's done in the past. Is he too unforgiving? That's up to him. There's no reason he ever has to watch Omega again, which is the possible detriment to some of the goofier shit that can happen in wrestling. The Bob Ross comparison actually makes me laugh, because Omega does come off an annoyingly soft-spoken and pretentious. He promos, at least the ones I've heard in English, are pretty bad. He got smoked by Jericho in the DoN build. He wasn't even particularly hard on Omega -- that's stuff you can see and hear for yourself. 

The Young Bucks _haven't_ drawn a dime in "mainstream wrestling." Firstly, "mainstream wrestling" doesn't exist. Secondly, who knows if they will? There is a lot of stuff going against them. Yes, they are athletic and do "cool moves." So did Blitzkrieg. You can hear the exhaustion in the crowd at the end of their match at DoN. It's really flat, because the Bucks aren't the best at selling and building to a crescendo. That is a valid criticism. Cornette is not the only person who has thought this. I've also heard the complains about Excalibur. What does his gimmick even mean? It wasn't explained and was a little disorienting. He actually complimented Excalibur's abilities, if you were paying attention. 

Cornette does except there are different styles of wrestling. That's one of his biggest complaints about the guys working today -- they don't play to their strengths and instead just all work the same style. If you're a brawler, brawl. If you're a high-flyer, but all means fly, but make it look like a struggle. If you're a technician, wrestle a guy to the mat. Cornette is not against any of that shit _if it makes sense_. 



virus21 said:


> Cornette has pretty much hated everything about wrestling since 1990


Blatant lie. In fact, he praised lots about the AEW show. 



Vic said:


> I’m a bit disappointed Jim trashed this especially when he was supportive of All In. I like Cornette a lot and always want to hear his opinions even if I disagree. Hopefully his mind will be changed some over time.


Lol, he didn't trash it. He said it was a story of two shows -- "some was double and some was nothing." He was exactly right. The Battle Royal was fucking trash. Some of the Best Friends shit was rotten. The women's match was pretty bad, and the criticisms of The Bucks and Omega are well-known. But he didn't give it a terrible review. Cornette just hates the hokey shit that is far more detrimental to casual fans' enjoyment than people realize. 

Guys -- Glacier was two wins away from becoming the first AEW Champion. Seriously think about that for a second. They're not perfect. They don't have to be right now. It's fine to wish them success but also look at some of the sillier stuff and say "that's a bit silly." 



MJF said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/888089909441032192


He's saying that Omega's good shit doesn't necessarily make up for the bad shit. At worst this is a violation of Godwin's law. He's clearly not saying the guy has committed hate crimes.


----------



## UniversalGleam

cornette is a bitter twat at the end of the day. He spends his time just picking fights and arguments with people. I can't remember the last time that he spoke positively on anything. He's always running stuff into the ground or insulting people. He generally seems furious all the time.

pretty pathetic tbh. He should try doing something more constructive and meaningful with his time.


----------



## V-Trigger

The Wood said:


> Cornette raises very valid and on-point criticisms for anyone who actually listens and doesn't just go to the old straw-man of "Cornette hates new stuff." Still the smartest dude in wrestling.


Sure thing. That's why he killed Smoky Mountain Wrestling and hasn't helped fill a big arena in 20 years.


----------



## Vic

The Wood said:


> Lol, he didn't trash it. He said it was a story of two shows -- "some was double and some was nothing." He was exactly right. The Battle Royal was fucking trash. Some of the Best Friends shit was rotten. The women's match was pretty bad, and the criticisms of The Bucks and Omega are well-known. But he didn't give it a terrible review. Cornette just hates the hokey shit that is far more detrimental to casual fans' enjoyment than people realize.
> 
> Guys -- Glacier was two wins away from becoming the first AEW Champion. Seriously think about that for a second. They're not perfect. They don't have to be right now. It's fine to wish them success but also look at some of the sillier stuff and say "that's a bit silly."


First of fucking all don’t talk down to me like you’re superior to me in anyway. You’re on a wrestling forum not ITT or some shit. Second of all, I’m well versed in Cornette’s thoughts and opinions on certain aspects of wrestling , I regularly listen to his show and knew his thoughts on Omega & the Bucks before they were a thing in NJPW. Just because I love Cornette I’m not going to kiss his ass and outright agree with everything he said or says. Who cares about Glacier being one of the final men? He was actually one of the most talked about individuals in the match before it even aired. It’s called fanservice and everyone has done and will continue to do it. If that pisses you off you’re in for a world of rage. And OP purposely only discussed the negatives Cornette thought of the show of course I’d think he’d trash it going by that. This of course is my own fault for not seeking out the show where he discusses Double or Nothing myself, but we’re only human.


----------



## patpat

Putting Tom Magee and omega in the same sentence is a no no for me. And when you know he said Y2J carried omega to good matches, you know where he is going. Sorry but anyone watching the WK12 and DON alpha vs omega and conclude that y2j carried omega is fucking dumb or totally biased. 
Secondly how are they supposed to draw a dime mainstream they are just now about to have more main stream attention, what I know is that they drew a fucking lot of dimes in the wrestling community, as for mainstream we will wait and see but in 2019 not a lot of wrestlers are mainstream. A lot of people dont even know the very decoratee guys like Rollins.
And his point about the pre show is something a lot of people made here, the pre show was them throwing all the indy shit on the wall and watch what happens, and I am sure they have seen the reaction about it and have done some analysis. 
As for the female referee , his reason for saying she doesnt belong is dumb, there is no referee today that can control the big guys physically. 
It's not the job of a ref , the ref uses his power over the match ( dq , sanctions) to enforce the rules.


----------



## Rick Sanchez

It's 2019. Does anyone really care about Jim Cornette anymore? He probably still wishes it was 1985.


----------



## SAMCRO

Something he did bring up that i forgot to talk about, why the fuck was there a guy in that battle royal with no legs? lol, from what i saw he laid there almost the whole match in the corner unable to do anything until that goofy 619 spot came up. Nothing against the guy but jesus this match is determining the first person to fight for the AEW world title, a guy with no legs has no business being in there. 

I don't agree with everything Cornette said but i agree 100% about his criticisms of that battle royal match, it really did feel like a circus, a guy with no legs, a really fat guy, a guy in a dinosaur mask, a guy painted yellow, a cross dressing man/woman?. There was just way too much ridiculous dumb characters in it for it to be a number 1 contenders match for your brand new world title. Adam Page was clearly the only guy in the match who had a shot at winning, MJF to an extent but most knew he wasn't winning.

Hell half the guys in the match had no business being in there, honestly it really should have just been Hangman Page vs MJF for that spot.


----------



## Hephaesteus

patpat said:


> As for the female referee , his reason for saying she doesnt belong is dumb, there is no referee today that can control the big guys physically.
> It's not the job of a ref , the ref uses his power over the match ( dq , sanctions) to enforce the rules.


The point is not that the ref can take control of a match, the point is that refs take bumps. It's not believable that a wrestling match is dangerous if petite women are in there.


----------



## Erik.

Hephaesteus said:


> The point is not that the ref can take control of a match, the point is that refs take bumps. It's not believable that a wrestling match is dangerous if petite women are in there.


The show has fucking womens matches on it :lol :lol


----------



## Hephaesteus

MJF said:


> The show has fucking womens matches on it :lol :lol


And?


----------



## Erik.

Hephaesteus said:


> And?


So what makes you think Aubrey Edwards isn't going to be taking bumps?

Because she's a woman? :lol

"Not believable that a match is dangerous if a woman is reffing" - What a load of bollocks. She reffed a fucking womens match for a start.


----------



## Hephaesteus

MJF said:


> So what makes you think Aubrey Edwards isn't going to be taking bumps?
> 
> Because she's a woman? :lol
> 
> "Not believable that a match is dangerous if a woman is reffing" - What a load of bollocks. She reffed a fucking womens match for a start.


Except she wasn't also reffed the man's tag team match. You'd figure if one's going to be incredulous about something that they'd at least get their facts right or that they'd at least address the point I bought up. So I once again said, and?


----------



## Erik.

Hephaesteus said:


> Except she wasn't also reffed the man's tag team match. You'd figure if one's going to be incredulous about something that they'd at least get their facts right or that they'd at least address the point I bought up. So I once again said, and?


What men's tag match did she ref?

Because I am pretty confident Rick Knox and Bryce Remsburg refereed the men's tag matches.

So if you're going to try and make a comeback, at least make sure your facts are right.

You donut.


----------



## Hephaesteus

MJF said:


> What men's tag match did she ref?
> 
> Because I am pretty confident Rick Knox and Bryce Remsburg refereed the men's tag matches.
> 
> So if you're going to try and make a comeback, at least make sure your facts are right.
> 
> You donut.


You're right it wasn't a tag team match it was a singles match. Still makes you look like a fool, since it was a male match, GENIUS.

But I went ahead and did your research for your lazy ass. 

https://www.instagram.com/p/ByGFJ2TBnX2/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

So yea, since you have nothing, we're done here. Go take your soy tears elsewhere.


----------



## Erik.

Hephaesteus said:


> You're right it wasn't a tag team match it was a singles match. Still makes you look like a fool, since it was a male match, GENIUS.
> 
> But I went ahead and did your research for your lazy ass.
> 
> https://www.instagram.com/p/ByGFJ2TBnX2/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link
> 
> So yea, since you have nothing, we're done here. Go take your soy tears elsewhere.


So at what point during that match, did she lose control? At what point did she need to take a bump? And let me know where she prevented any part of the match from being dangerous?

I'm here all week, don't worry.


----------



## patpat

Hephaesteus said:


> patpat said:
> 
> 
> 
> As for the female referee , his reason for saying she doesnt belong is dumb, there is no referee today that can control the big guys physically.
> It's not the job of a ref , the ref uses his power over the match ( dq , sanctions) to enforce the rules.
> 
> 
> 
> The point is not that the ref can take control of a match, the point is that refs take bumps. It's not believable that a wrestling match is dangerous if petite women are in there.
Click to expand...

 she isnt able to take bump? Does he have any news on that? Sorry but a old referee was the one to call the violent brock Lesnar vs reigns at mania 31, he is simply bullshitting. 
That's stupid, this referee turned a botch into an angle within seconds!! Did you watch the joshi match? Her control of the situation and the way she reacts so fast is absolutely incredible....that's what a ref should be able to do in 2019.


----------



## NapperX

Cornette's been known for becoming angrier over the years over something he doesn't entirely agree with.


----------



## Uness

he is just a butt hurt old man


----------



## RiverFenix

Jericho did carry the match in a way - the build was almost totally one-sided, all the pre-match hype stuff was wholly carried by Jericho. Jericho is why there was any heat in that match. Omega was doing BTE skits about signings and FyterFest - did he ever mention his Jericho match, it being a title eliminator, and how much he wanted to be the champion? Hell they sold the eventual Rhodes vs Jericho match on RtDoN better than the Omega sold his match. Without the build, whatever the in-ring was that Omega carried out of the bloated Jericho would have been even further discounted. Pure in-ring only matters when you have no selljob hype in the match - when the outcome ultimately doesn't matter then fans latch onto the pure in-ring performance as reason to watch. 

Omega really needs to up his game and carry the promotion side of his matches and feuds going forward. His name and NJPW reputation alone isn't going to do it when trying to bring back the lapsed fan. His promo work is really lacking because of Japan I think - it was passable to be basic because he was speaking in English to ESL speakers, and then spoke in what is very likely basic, bad Japanese (no different than when Shinsuke or Adrade promo in English). 

He really needs to work on this area - will he accept that he does?

Are the Bucks "coachable"? Are they open to changing their in-ring to tell a better story and slow things down now that they're in a major promotion and EVP's of it and are not on the indies anymore where they gotta make sure they get all their spots in every match because matches on the indies are in front of different crowds all the time who want to see your shit, but they have a regular weekly television audience now they have to cater too first. Big spot kickouts is the way they've sold any and all drama their whole careers. 

There would be nothing better to happen than book somebody to some in and dismantle the Bucks - to humble them and shock them. That could be the impetus for change on their part. Maybe it would be The Revival, managed by Arn Anderson - they come in and pick The Bucks apart with strategy and technical mat work. Imagine that match - Co main or even main event for one of the PPV's, maybe their first in-ring meeting and The Revival squash them.


----------



## Cas Ras

Over half in so far, but I think the most important points have been made so far.

Ignoring the polemics, Cornette has some worthy advices. Most important, he makes a good argument pointing out how the show wasn't good about making new fans. They could have explained some things like who are the announcers (who wasn't wondering about the mask?) and the intro with things like the Bucks superkicking the producer was just silly, except the Saddie Gibbs vignette.


----------



## patpat

The bucks kicking the producer isnt more problematic than shawn kicking everyone backstage, it was fun, hell I agree with the pre show wasn't that good but at least some fun in the show cant kill? It's not mid south either. 

And as for the match I think even a fucking blind person can see the match was omega killing himself to carry y2j. It happened at the wrestling kingdom match , it happened here.


----------



## V-Trigger

How the fuck do you make new fans on a 5 hour show that is heavily focused on wrestling. Let that shit for when the TV starts and you have more time to develop characters.


----------



## V-Trigger

DetroitRiverPhx said:


> Are the Bucks "coachable"? Are they open to changing their in-ring to tell a better story and slow things down.


The Bucks worked everybody this past year when they told the story of Matt's back being injured for months. Everybody eated it and played a role during their matches that year. So yeah, they know how to tell a story but of course a lot of you don't bother watching their matches and only listen to old hacks like Cornette and Rip Rogers


----------



## WalkingInMemphis

Queen of Marks said:


> I would love to know the context of that comparison lol. I love Cornette I think he's hilarious. I agree with some of what he says and even think AEW would benefit by hiring him even though they've said they won't have a writing team


He hates Omega because he wrestled a blow-up doll and a 9 year old girl. He believes that has damaged the business beyond repair.

I'm a huge Cornette fan and I agree with most of his opinions. That being said, he's too harsh on Omega and the Bucks. Yeah, they've done some silly shit in wrestling, but they make it fun too.

He had the utmost praise for the Cody/Dustin match (which was no surprise) and even had no problem with the hug afterwards, which is weird because he usually hates shaking hands and friendliness after matches.

He wasn't particularly hard on Omega this time, but had a shit-ton of praise for Mox's appearance.


----------



## Venocide

He's such a fucking salty bitch. He hates the Bucks and Omega, now they've started their own wrestling company he's gonna take every opportunity to bury the fuck out of AEW. They'll never be able to please this man, just ignore the cunt.


----------



## jroc72191

looper007 said:


> Jericho is one of Cornette's boy's and Omega cause he wrestled a kid in his early career is a bridge burner plus he's one of the boy's with The Young Bucks, means he's enemy number 1. It's just parody now with Cornette and given him this attention is beyond silly.
> 
> This is a guy who never booked a successful company, the ratings where down when he was in WCW and WWE and he nearly ran out all the talent from ROH. Plus his own company went in the shitter. And Everyone takes his advice like it's gospel.


meanwhile, russo is the worst guy in the world!


----------



## WalkingInMemphis

DetroitRiverPhx said:


> Omega really needs to up his game and carry the promotion side of his matches and feuds going forward. His name and NJPW reputation alone isn't going to do it when trying to bring back the lapsed fan. His promo work is really lacking because of Japan I think - it was passable to be basic because he was speaking in English to ESL speakers, and then spoke in what is very likely basic, bad Japanese (no different than when Shinsuke or Adrade promo in English).
> 
> He really needs to work on this area - will he accept that he does?
> 
> Are the Bucks "coachable"? Are they open to changing their in-ring to tell a better story and slow things down now that they're in a major promotion and EVP's of it and are not on the indies anymore where they gotta make sure they get all their spots in every match because matches on the indies are in front of different crowds all the time who want to see your shit, but they have a regular weekly television audience now they have to cater too first. Big spot kickouts is the way they've sold any and all drama their whole careers.


Excellent points. If Omega is headed towards a feud with Mox, Kenny is going to have to step up his promo game. After listening to _Talk is Jericho_, Mox is ready to go apeshit with the promos. I honestly can't wait.

Agreed with the Bucks as well. I wonder if they are willing to listen to guys like Dean Malenko and Billy Gunn. I love flippy, spot monkey wrestling, but it's gonna get stale after a few months of the same thing on broadcast TV.



DetroitRiverPhx said:


> There would be nothing better to happen than book somebody to some in and dismantle the Bucks - to humble them and shock them. That could be the impetus for change on their part. Maybe it would be The Revival, managed by Arn Anderson - they come in and pick The Bucks apart with strategy and technical mat work. Imagine that match - Co main or even main event for one of the PPV's, maybe their first in-ring meeting and The Revival squash them.


Arn Anderson managing The Revival?

kada :done :tucky :krillin :gasm


----------



## Araragi

He'll always let his personal grudges cloud his judgment which kills all of his credibility on certain subjects. People just pick at him because they like to hear him bitch.


----------



## jroc72191

Patrick Sledge said:


> I agreed with everything JC said about Dreamer and Sonny Kiss.
> 
> "this transgender from the fucking bahamas...."
> 
> "tommy dreamer is too nice. but everything dreamer does these days is a fucking joke..."
> 
> JC loves to bury people. I hope his tombstone is just a shovel lol


im bi and i stil dont want to see sonny kiss doing gay shit in the ring... for the same reason i dont want to see hot women that cant work a fucking lick. i can see both on Pornhub doing things that those wrestlers couldnt dream of. its comedic but it doesnt do anything for the perception of pro wrestling. cause lord knows they couldnt go and get say, Parrow, if they wanted a gay wrestler.


----------



## epfou1

Listed to the podcast and there is a lot that I agree Cornette with. The ppv could of done so much better to win new fans. For a new company you do need to explain to the audience who is in your roster and any backstory, and AEW didnt do that well, apart from Cody-Dustin video package.

I agree with Cornette about the battle royale. Too much goofy shit and only Hangman and MJF looked credible. Comments about Thomas and Havoc was spot on. Can't see Havoc being fit for TV if brings nothing but hardcore shit. And you cant have a guy with no legs doing nothing for most of the match but laying in a corner.

Totally agree with him about the annoucers. Marvez should of never been hired without any experience and he explained well that annoucers need to look professional and play a straight bat so the decision makers should of made Excaliber scrap the masked gimmick.

He put over SCU v Strong hearts as well as Cody v Dustin, the best match of the night. I thought his critique of womens match was solid, as well as Best Friends v Evans/Angelico.

However he criticism of Young Bucks and Omega was very biased and mostly wrong. About Omega especially.


----------



## Chan Hung

I listened to the whole thing and Jim cornette does have some valid points he's looking at it from a more old-school perspective which is understandable and he critiques really what I think is coming to critique but hopefully because the company is still very young that they are able to adjust and fix these things which I think they will


----------



## patpat

I swear to God the people saying omega needs to up his promo game have never listened to a serious Kenny omega promo. Like why not get all the infos on wrestlers before spitting bullshit? It's like people saying the bucks cant tell stories in the ring , sorry but anyone saying that he fucking ignorant tof their work.
Also how the fuck are people blaming them for not thinking about "what are we gonna do with the new fans"? They have no TV deal and created their whole ppv based on YouTube video , what else are they supposed to do? Why do you want to understand every single character from this ppv alone? How dumb is that? You dont develop your characters in a 5 hours ppv. 
Also please people go listen to omega promos, I cringe everytime anyone say he has to up his promo game when it's one of his assets. Same for the bucks , get informations on how they can tell stories about injuries for months.


----------



## Arktik

patpat said:


> I swear to God the people saying omega needs to up his promo game have never listened to a serious Kenny omega promo. Like why not get all the infos on wrestlers before spitting bullshit? It's like people saying the bucks cant tell stories in the ring , sorry but anyone saying that he fucking ignorant tof their work.
> Also how the fuck are people blaming them for not thinking about "what are we gonna do with the new fans"? They have no TV deal and created their whole ppv based on YouTube video , what else are they supposed to do? Why do you want to understand every single character from this ppv alone? How dumb is that? You dont develop your characters in a 5 hours ppv.
> Also please people go listen to omega promos, I cringe everytime anyone say he has to up his promo game when it's one of his assets. Same for the bucks , get informations on how they can tell stories about injuries for months.


This is a brand new promotion that should be intending to reach a new audience. In your first show you should be introducing your talent to this audience. The fact that they did a poor job of that is a valid criticism and one that should be taken into account for in the future. 

Also, Omega's promos work for a niche audience of fans that are already familiar with him. If he wants to get over with a more mainstream audience he is going to have to make his promos more appealing to a mass audience.


----------



## Chan Hung

Arktik said:


> patpat said:
> 
> 
> 
> I swear to God the people saying omega needs to up his promo game have never listened to a serious Kenny omega promo. Like why not get all the infos on wrestlers before spitting bullshit? It's like people saying the bucks cant tell stories in the ring , sorry but anyone saying that he fucking ignorant tof their work.
> Also how the fuck are people blaming them for not thinking about "what are we gonna do with the new fans"? They have no TV deal and created their whole ppv based on YouTube video , what else are they supposed to do? Why do you want to understand every single character from this ppv alone? How dumb is that? You dont develop your characters in a 5 hours ppv.
> Also please people go listen to omega promos, I cringe everytime anyone say he has to up his promo game when it's one of his assets. Same for the bucks , get informations on how they can tell stories about injuries for months.
> 
> 
> 
> This is a brand new promotion that should be intending to reach a new audience. In your first show you should be introducing your talent to this audience. The fact that they did a poor job of that is a valid criticism and one that should be taken into account for in the future.
> 
> Also, Omega's promos work for a niche audience of fans that are already familiar with him. If he wants to get over with a more mainstream audience he is going to have to make his promos more appealing to a mass audience.
Click to expand...

This.


----------



## Arktik

and I want to make this clear, I WANT AEW to succeed. I desperately want to see another big promotion push WWE not just as a fan, but so that wrestlers have another option to make money and have more creative freedom.


----------



## V-Trigger

epfou1 said:


> Totally agree with him about the annoucers. Marvez should of never been hired without any experience and he explained well that annoucers need to look professional and play a straight bat so the decision makers should of made Excaliber scrap the masked gimmick.


Nobody will give a fuck about a mask if the comentary is great (it was).



Arktik said:


> Also, Omega's promos work for a niche audience of fans that are already familiar with him. If he wants to get over with a more mainstream audience he is going to have to make his promos more appealing to a mass audience.


Do you want to get familiar with the talent? Go on your own way to watch stuff from the past or their Youtube show. It's impossible for them to sell you on them on a 5 hour/wrestling centric show. Also listen to Excalibur during the matches, he talked about the Bucks/Lucha Brothers history with other tag teams (MCMG and Steenerico).


----------



## The Wood

Just going to take 5 at a time, for simplicity’s sake:



UniversalGleam said:


> cornette is a bitter twat at the end of the day. He spends his time just picking fights and arguments with people. I can't remember the last time that he spoke positively on anything. He's always running stuff into the ground or insulting people. He generally seems furious all the time.
> 
> pretty pathetic tbh. He should try doing something more constructive and meaningful with his time.


If you can’t remember the last time he spoke positively on anything then it’s obvious you didn’t listen to his actual thoughts on the show. This should automatically disqualify you to comment on the commentary. 



V-Trigger said:


> Sure thing. That's why he killed Smoky Mountain Wrestling and hasn't helped fill a big arena in 20 years.


Um, talk about a non sequitur. I don’t know what a territory going out of business in 1995 has anything to do with a guy who has been involved in the business at a high level fairly consistently for over 30 years now has to do with anything. Would you hold ECW against Paul Heyman if he made a comment about wrestling? This also completely ignores the important work he did in OVW and ROH and also keeping TNA together for as long as the minds there could. 

You do realize that a big part of the early success of shows like All In and AEW comes from the environment that smothered a lot of precious creative enterprises, don’t you? It’s not an immediate testament to overriding quality, just as the WWF’s “quality” wasn’t why everyone else went out of business in the territory days. Environments change, dingus. 



Vic said:


> First of fucking all don’t talk down to me like you’re superior to me in anyway. You’re on a wrestling forum not ITT or some shit. Second of all, I’m well versed in Cornette’s thoughts and opinions on certain aspects of wrestling , I regularly listen to his show and knew his thoughts on Omega & the Bucks before they were a thing in NJPW. Just because I love Cornette I’m not going to kiss his ass and outright agree with everything he said or says. Who cares about Glacier being one of the final men? He was actually one of the most talked about individuals in the match before it even aired. It’s called fanservice and everyone has done and will continue to do it. If that pisses you off you’re in for a world of rage. And OP purposely only discussed the negatives Cornette thought of the show of course I’d think he’d trash it going by that. This of course is my own fault for not seeking out the show where he discusses Double or Nothing myself, but we’re only human.


First of all, don’t act like you’re Rambo: First Blood on a wrestling forum. Secondly, I simply called out your statement as being wrong. You said he trashed the show. This was either ill-informed or a lie. By your own admission, it was ill-informed. It takes someone with some integrity to admit that. That’s cool to see. I don’t know why you’re lashing out like you weren’t the one mistaken though. 

Who cares about Glacier being in contention for the World Title out the gate? That’s pretty much exactly the point. 



Rick Sanchez said:


> It's 2019. Does anyone really care about Jim Cornette anymore? He probably still wishes it was 1985.


He probably wishes wrestling still made sense. He’s also probably done the best wrestling commentary of 2019. 



MJF said:


> The show has fucking womens matches on it <img src="http://i.imgur.com/EGDmCdR.gif?1?6573" border="0" alt="" title="Laugh" class="inlineimg" /> <img src="http://i.imgur.com/EGDmCdR.gif?1?6573" border="0" alt="" title="Laugh" class="inlineimg" />


The criticism was not in regards to women reffing women’s matches, dingus. Anyone who listened to the criticism would know that. You’d think someone who modelled their user name on MJF would actually apply some brain power to something instead of making a right amateur ass of themselves. 

It’s so amazing how people’s brains shut-down when discussing Cornette. If you want to dismiss his points, how about actually engaging with what they actually are? He makes them clear enough. The guy’s not known for mincing words.


----------



## Erik.

The Wood said:


> The criticism was not in regards to women reffing women’s matches, dingus. Anyone who listened to the criticism would know that. You’d think someone who modelled their user name on MJF would actually apply some brain power to something instead of making a right amateur ass of themselves.
> 
> It’s so amazing how people’s brains shut-down when discussing Cornette. If you want to dismiss his points, how about actually engaging with what they actually are? He makes them clear enough. The guy’s not known for mincing words.


I didn't say it was you fucking troglodyte. 

I couldn't give a shit about his points. I was shutting down the guy who said a women's referee would take away the danger aspect of any match. And surprise surprise the guy has disappeared because he realises what a fucking dickhead he looked.


----------



## V-Trigger

The Wood said:


> You do realize that a big part of the early success of shows like All In and AEW comes from the environment that smothered a lot of precious creative enterprises, don’t you? It’s not an immediate testament to overriding quality, just as the WWF’s “quality” wasn’t why everyone else went out of business in the territory days. Environments change, dingus.


What are you talking about. He almost RAN OUT ROH of all their top talent. (Something Something Steen and Generico). Cornette doesn't get modern wrestling. Saying that events like ALL IN are possible thanks to his contribution to the business is ridiculous. He HATES modern wrestling. He doesn't bury NWA/MLW because he works there.

He came to review with the intention to hate it. He still seethes at Kenny because a spot that took place on DDT.

Nobody cares, he hates on these boys and they prove him wrong on every corner.

His commentary about Omega is as stupid as always and is out of place. 

Wonder what will happen when he sees Kenny become one of the most popular wrestlers in the us and the Bucks actually drawing unlike what he thinks. 

Fuck him.


----------



## patpat

How the fuck are they supposed to do everything you guys are talking about on a 5 hours fucking ppv that is the first aew ppv when they have no ficking TV? :lol 
This is absolutely ridiculous, its asking for the impossible, like you are literally asking them to do something that cant be done , they tried it with their series of YouTube video ( road to double or nothing) watch it. There is nothing more they can do. 
And you keep bitching about "they cant attract new viewers" 
But they did! They fucking did, the Google trend, the mass coverage , the shit broke into the mainstream media, and they have no TV. Mjf was a no name before the show and now everyone Mark's over him. And it took them the Bret segment + his big exposure in the battle royals to do so. Are they supposed to do that for the whole roster? Then make the show 8 hours then. And nope people would be bitching it was too long, and people would be bitching "why are they trying to present all their stars , do that on the TV show" blablabla. :lol 
There is no way out of this shit, people are asking for these guys to do everything and its contrary at the Sam's time, whatever their current methods is, it is working, and I have hope they will get better in the future


----------



## Chan Hung

I think even Jim Cornette bashed TNA and he worked there so yeah he pretty much bashas everywhere he works. This is not new. Everybody knows this and I don't really agree with cornette on the majority of the things but he does have some valid points about the Alex sucking as announcer, about parts of the battle royal and about some people really needing to up their Auntie on the mic as well as giving the possible new viewer to the pay-per-view a little bit more insight on the characters,....however I will also say that it is true that this was a pay-per-view and it's supposed to focus on matches and that's what TV time is 4 later to capitalize n help with character developments and promos and backstories to individuals.


----------



## The Wood

MJF said:


> I didn't say it was you fucking troglodyte.
> 
> *I couldn't give a shit about his points.* I was shutting down the guy who said a women's referee would take away the danger aspect of any match. And surprise surprise the guy has disappeared because he realises what a fucking dickhead he looked.


Ah, there it is. The admission that you don’t know what you’re talking about. 

That other poster smoked you on the logic front. Just because you’re the last one talking doesn’t mean your points are better.

The point was that women refereeing men’s matches undersells the danger of a physical confrontation between the men. You cannot grasp that for some reason, and had to resort to some point about her hypothetically bumping like that makes any sense. 

Yep, he looked like the dickhead. You’re an embarrassment to the good name of MJF. 



V-Trigger said:


> The Wood said:
> 
> 
> 
> You do realize that a big part of the early success of shows like All In and AEW comes from the environment that smothered a lot of precious creative enterprises, don’t you? It’s not an immediate testament to overriding quality, just as the WWF’s “quality” wasn’t why everyone else went out of business in the territory days. Environments change, dingus.
> 
> 
> 
> What are you talking about. He almost RAN OUT ROH of all their top talent. (Something Something Steen and Generico). Cornette doesn't get modern wrestling. Saying that events like ALL IN are possible thanks to his contribution to the business is ridiculous. He HATES modern wrestling. He doesn't bury NWA/MLW because he works there.
> 
> He came to review with the intention to hate it. He still seethes at Kenny because a spot that took place on DDT.
> 
> Nobody cares, he hates on these boys and they prove him wrong on every corner.
> 
> His commentary about Omega is as stupid as always and is out of place.
> 
> Wonder what will happen when he sees Kenny become one of the most popular wrestlers in the us and the Bucks actually drawing unlike what he thinks.
> 
> Fuck him.
Click to expand...

It’s well-known that ROH is only still in business because Cornette was majorly involved in getting it sold to Sinclair. That is far more critical than upsetting Kevin Steen and El Generico, who were about as known as the Super Smash Bros. before WWE (who got “Who are you?” chants at DoN, by the way). 

You’re misquoting and misrepresenting my points intentionally. I didn’t say All In is possible because of _his_ contributions to wrestling, as if it were direct cause and effect. I said it was possible because of the stifled environment since the death of wrestling outside WWE. People are hungry for shit that isn’t bullshit “sports entertainment.” An SMW would actually have the chance of being en vogue today. 

Cornette doesn’t hate modern wrestling. He basically blew MJF and Cody. He loves The Revival. Constantly ups Cesaro. He’s way too keen on Seth Rollins and Dolph Ziggler for my liking. To say he doesn’t like “modern wrestling” is a lie. It’s a straw-man designed to dismiss his opinion without engaging with it. He likes logic in wrestling. 

P.S. The stuff Cornette positively reviewed was the stuff that people really loved. So many more agree with this dude’s opinion than even realize it because of misrepresentations like yours. 

And his opinions on Omega are fine. He’s far from the best worker in the world. His facial expressions are ridiculous and his promos do come off as pretentious. I’ve seen lots of sane, rational people saying this, and talking about the obstacles Omega is going to face in getting over with larger audiences. 



patpat said:


> How the fuck are they supposed to do everything you guys are talking about on a 5 hours fucking ppv that is the first aew ppv when they have no ficking TV? <img src="http://i.imgur.com/EGDmCdR.gif?1?6573" border="0" alt="" title="Laugh" class="inlineimg" />
> This is absolutely ridiculous, its asking for the impossible, like you are literally asking them to do something that cant be done , they tried it with their series of YouTube video ( road to double or nothing) watch it. There is nothing more they can do.
> And you keep bitching about "they cant attract new viewers"
> But they did! They fucking did, the Google trend, the mass coverage , the shit broke into the mainstream media, and they have no TV. Mjf was a no name before the show and now everyone Mark's over him. And it took them the Bret segment + his big exposure in the battle royals to do so. Are they supposed to do that for the whole roster? Then make the show 8 hours then. And nope people would be bitching it was too long, and people would be bitching "why are they trying to present all their stars , do that on the TV show" blablabla. <img src="http://i.imgur.com/EGDmCdR.gif?1?6573" border="0" alt="" title="Laugh" class="inlineimg" />
> There is no way out of this shit, people are asking for these guys to do everything and its contrary at the Sam's time, whatever their current methods is, it is working, and I have hope they will get better in the future


The line seems to be 98k buys. Impressive when put up against TNA. Not so much in the scheme of PPV. 

There seems to be this idea that they have to be stupid to appeal to the hardcore fans? I don’t know where this comes from. You don’t need Glacier in a Battle Royal to decide the #1 Contender. You could have presented a logical show top-to-bottom. They might next time. There’s no reason things need to be shit before they get good. Could just be growing pains, but I don’t know why people are so adverse to hearing the criticism. If WWE did that fucking Librarian segment, they would be raked over coals. 

Personally, I hope they get better. I also hope that was not their idea of perfection, because a lot of it subtracted rather than added, and that could become problematic for them.


----------



## patpat

98k buys in 2019 with 2/3 coming from America and Canada where the ppv was 50, the biggest ppv buyrates since basically wcw/the 99k ecw one ( which was the highest buyrates for ecw ever) isnt impressive? 
I mean ok. At this point I dont know what to say, suits yourselves to think that, but it being a great performance is a simple and pure fact.


----------



## Erik.

The Wood said:


> Ah, there it is. The admission that you don’t know what you’re talking about.
> 
> That other poster smoked you on the logic front. Just because you’re the last one talking doesn’t mean your points are better.
> 
> The point was that women refereeing men’s matches undersells the danger of a physical confrontation between the men. You cannot grasp that for some reason, and had to resort to some point about her hypothetically bumping like that makes any sense.
> 
> Yep, he looked like the dickhead. You’re an embarrassment to the good name of MJF.


I didn't resort to making a point about her bumping. The guy who "smoked me on the logic front" brought that up. 

He literally said "Jim Cornettes point isn't that the ref cannot take control of the match, it's that referees take bumps and a match isn't believable if a petite woman is in there"

I couldn't give a shit if she takes bumps or not. I would assume if she's told to take a bump in relevance to the match she's officiating, she would. Unless of course you can tell me why she wouldn't and how her being a woman makes a match less dangerous?


----------



## V-Trigger

The Wood said:


> And his opinions on Omega are fine. He’s far from the best worker in the world. His facial expressions are ridiculous and his promos do come off as pretentious. I’ve seen lots of sane, rational people saying this, and talking about the obstacles Omega is going to face in getting over with larger audiences.


Funny that you mention his facial expresions because people like Foley, Jericho and JR (before they signed with AEW) mentioned this as one of his best assets.
Omega strenght is storytelling. But I'm sure that you haven't followed his decade old story with Kota Ibushi or his series of matches with Okada.

He doesn't cut the same type of promo that everybody does = Bad.
Not really, when you are regarded as one of the few megastars that made it in Japan (Not easy thing to do) it seems to me that he's doing okay. We are not in the 80's anymore were everybody talked like meth heads.
Would like to know who you regard as a better worker than him. (Current era).


----------



## Arktik

Man, the AEW marks are getting to be as bad as the WWE ones.


----------



## UniversalGleam

The Wood said:


> If you can’t remember the last time he spoke positively on anything then it’s obvious you didn’t listen to his actual thoughts on the show. This should automatically disqualify you to comment on the commentary. .


oh no, thats ok, you don't need to disqualify me, Ill comment where I like thanks, if you dont like it then thats your problem sonny jim. 

Enjoy your day.


----------



## V-Trigger

Arktik said:


> Man, the AEW marks are getting to be as bad as the WWE ones.


The only marks in this thread are the Cornettes stooges. Imagine taking the word of this man as a gospel when he has done nothing for the business in 15 years. Almost as bad as the Russo fans.


----------



## patpat

V-Trigger said:


> Funny that you mention his facial expresions because people like Foley, Jericho and JR (before they signed with AEW) mentioned this as one of his best assets.
> Omega strenght is storytelling. But I'm sure that you haven't followed his decade old story with Kota Ibushi or his series of matches with Okada.
> 
> He doesn't cut the same type of promo that everybody does = Bad.
> Not really, when you are regarded as one of the few megastars that made it in Japan (Not easy thing to do) it seems to me that he's doing okay. We are not in the 80's anymore were everybody talked like meth heads.
> Would like to know who you regard as a better worker than him. (Current era).


you can add stone cold to that list. of people that thinks his facial expression is picture perfect. but hey? the opinion of some of the greatest in history that actually got over with the big audience doesn't matter! the people on the internet are more knowledgeable , didn't you learn that in middleschool? 

also he doesn't scream in this promo so it sucks!! 
lol it's so ridiculous, I love omega's promos simply because they are chilled , the guy's gesture, little words here and there makes it seems like it's a guy talking to me literally. it got him over before, and I believe it will get him over here too with a mainstream audience. what I love about all of this is that so far they have proven everyone wrong,i remember people freaking out in the internet and twitter about how they are not gonna buy the ppv, how it will fail how "no one will spend that much on wrestling" , result? almost 100k with 2/3 coming from the place where it was 50$....again I am starting to see a pattern with the internet when it comes to wrestling...


----------



## Arktik

V-Trigger said:


> Arktik said:
> 
> 
> 
> Man, the AEW marks are getting to be as bad as the WWE ones.
> 
> 
> 
> The only marks in this thread are the Cornettes stooges. Imagine taking the word of this man as a gospel when he has done nothing for the business in 15 years. Almost as bad as the Russo fans.
Click to expand...

No one has said Cornette is like Moses walking down with the tablets. What I and others have asked is that if people are going to criticize his comments to at least fairly represent them and refute it instead of just saying "he hates modern wrestling lol". 

I want to reiterate this again, I want AEW to succeed. I am fearful that they are going to let goofy indy wrestling high spots damage the best opportunity wrestling has had to knock Vince down a peg in more than 20 years. My "criticisms" are in the sense that I want to see this company do well and I would love for them to have the best product possible to get new fans and bring back old wrestling fans driven away by the WWE.


----------



## nWo4Lyfe420

Arktik said:


> Man, the AEW marks are getting to be as bad as the WWE ones.


If AEW shits the bed for over a decade and still has defenders then you could say that. Until then comments like these read like salt.


----------



## Scissor Me Daddy-O!!

The Wood said:


> *Sigh* I can't believe I have to do this on the AEW board, where I'd be hoping people would be more intelligent.
> 
> He's saying that Omega's good shit doesn't necessarily make up for the bad shit. At worst this is a violation of Godwin's law. He's clearly not saying the guy has committed hate crimes.


Using Hitler to make a point about a wrestler not being to your liking......that's a mental disability. Cornette has a mental disability. You defending his usage of Hitler compared to Omega is almost as bad. 

You made some great points and shut down people overreacting, something that's been off the charts the past few days. But, Cornette buried himself by using a Hitler reference in any connection to wrestling.


----------



## sim8

Actually went away to listen to the podcast. Cotnette made one good point about how guys like Best Friends have this long running friendship and history that the casuals and lapsed fand AEW needs wont know about. AEW will need to do a better job explaining the characters. Of course, im certain they will once tv starts. But still a good point


----------



## Patrick Sledge

Arktik said:


> Man, the AEW marks are getting to be as bad as the WWE ones.


really? explain


----------



## SAMCRO

Cornette did like stuff that was on this show, he didn't hate everything, and the stuff he didn't like i kinda see where he's coming from, he had valid points on alot of stuff he was hating on. It was dumb for them to put a dude on commentary who has no experience at all for the first time live on a ppv thats 49.99, and this being the first big AEW show being presented to their new audience. 

And that battle royal was a bit of a mess with alot of dumb characters in it that was not explained to us, and the Super Smash Bros spot was confusing and shouldn't have happened, no one there knew who they was and they didn't warrant the lights going out, cause people immediately thought it was gonna be some huge surprise when the lights came back on and it was two guys no one knew.

And the announcers did do a poor job of explaining alot of these guys characters to us, they just expected everyone to already know everything about them.

I don't agree with him on his views of Omega, and i don't have an issue with a woman referring a guys match, but i do find myself agreeing with alot his complaints.


----------



## Arktik

Patrick Sledge said:


> really? explain


Look through this thread, even mild criticism of the product is met with rabid denial. You can't even point out that DON did a poor job of introducing new fans to the talent without people losing their minds.


----------



## Beatles123

People, Cornette is what he is. To repeat what I said earlier, he's an old fossil who just has weird opinions. Let him whine. AEW'll be fine.



Arktik said:


> Look through this thread, even mild criticism of the product is met with rabid denial. You can't even point out that DON did a poor job of introducing new fans to the talent without people losing their minds.


No one is denying you a voice as long as you aren't dropping the same tired anti-indy talking points. Most seem to be fine but there's also "LOL THEY'LL BE DEAD IN 6 months." and thats not cool (or factual.)


----------



## American_Nightmare

Well he is right about Marvez and Excalibur.


----------



## Arktik

Beatles123 said:


> No one is denying you a voice as long as you aren't dropping the same tired anti-indy talking points. Most seem to be fine but there's also "LOL THEY'LL BE DEAD IN 6 months." and thats not cool (or factual.)


Anyone saying AEW will be dead in 6 months is a delusional WWE mark. What I would encourage is for no one to be that blindly loyal to any promotion. When you see something you enjoy give the promotion credit, buy their product and represent them. However, if they do something cringe recognize it and demand better. No promotion is going to be perfect especially considering there are a lot of fans with different preferences. DON had some objectively great moments (MJF/Page in the opener, Cody/Dustin, Mox debut) but there were also a lot of moments that could be better.


----------



## Beatles123

Arktik said:


> Anyone saying AEW will be dead in 6 months is a delusional WWE mark. What I would encourage is for no one to be that blindly loyal to any promotion. When you see something you enjoy give the promotion credit, buy their product and represent them. However, if they do something cringe recognize it and demand better. No promotion is going to be perfect especially considering there are a lot of fans with different preferences. DON had some objectively great moments (MJF/Page in the opener, Cody/Dustin, Mox debut) but there were also a lot of moments that could be better.


For sure. It IS an interesting thought. As much as people don't want to compare this to the Monday Night Wars, one thing people DON'T mention is that this is the only time aside from TNA's brief Monday disaster that a viable company has been around IN THE INTERNET ERA. For as divided as some are right now, it's interesting to ponder what it would be like if WCW's hayday had been happening in the age of social media. I bet it would be even worse than some of the discourse going on right now.

Certainly, this is shaping up to be a time in wrestling history i'm glad to be a part of. :lenny


----------



## Schwartzxz

why didnt you point out the positive stuff he said about the show? only the negative. it would only be fair although it wouldnt matter because some people will not accept any criticism towards AEW. everything about it is great. just awesome.


----------



## Beatles123

Schwartzxz said:


> why didnt you point out the positive stuff he said about the show? only the negative. it would only be fair although it wouldnt matter because some people will not accept any criticism towards AEW. everything about it is great. just awesome.


The inverse is just as big an issue, and to be fair, he hates more than he likes.

EDIT:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1134584995526238209
BAH GAWD Matt kicking the old coot in the balls!


----------



## The Wood

Schwartzxz said:


> why didnt you point out the positive stuff he said about the show? only the negative. it would only be fair although it wouldnt matter because some people will not accept any criticism towards AEW. everything about it is great. just awesome.


Because that would require engagement and intellectual honesty, and it steps on the "Cornette hates modern wrestling" point that people use to dismiss him. 



V-Trigger said:


> The only marks in this thread are the Cornettes stooges. Imagine taking the word of this man as a gospel when he has done nothing for the business in 15 years. Almost as bad as the Russo fans.


Who's taking his word as "gospel?" Do you know what that word means? People can listen to what he says, look at the AEW product, and either agree, disagree, or find that it kind of matches what they already thought. A lot of people thought the Battle Royal was dumb shit before they heard Cornette talk about it. A lot of people find the Best Friends shtick frivolous without Cornette's input. The Young Bucks receive criticisms all over for being spot monkeys. Cornette is even more generous to them than some. 

I notice you keep changing the frame that Cornette hasn't done anything in too, by the way. It was 20 years. Then you probably remembered OVW. ROH was sold to Sinclair in 2011, by the way, which was only 8 years ago. He's also still probably the best color guy in the business right now. 



V-Trigger said:


> Funny that you mention his facial expresions because people like Foley, Jericho and JR (before they signed with AEW) mentioned this as one of his best assets.
> Omega strenght is storytelling. But I'm sure that you haven't followed his decade old story with Kota Ibushi or his series of matches with Okada.
> 
> He doesn't cut the same type of promo that everybody does = Bad.
> Not really, when you are regarded as one of the few megastars that made it in Japan (Not easy thing to do) it seems to me that he's doing okay. We are not in the 80's anymore were everybody talked like meth heads.
> Would like to know who you regard as a better worker than him. (Current era).


Ha, and you want to throw mud at people saying they take people's word as gospel. They can say what they want about his facial expressions. I think they fucking suck and are easily one of the worst parts of his performance. I can think for myself. I saw him come out for his match against Okada with those goofy faces, and I switched off until I could come back and watch it without the entrance. My opinion on him is valid to me. Cornette seems to agree. Many people I know do too. But even if I didn't, I could see that with my eyes and decipher it with my mind. 

I never said that Omega's promos are bad because they're not like everyone else's. This is completely made-up by you for the purposes of trying to discredit an argument I am not making. 

Yeah, Omega became one of the bigger stars in Japan. I mean, Jay White is like the 4th biggest now or something, isn't he? I'm not saying that what Omega did isn't impressive, but you're over-inflating the significance of it because you're in a middle. New Japan is still very niche, even in Japan. Let's not pretend Omega took New Japan Pro-Wrestling and made it this cultural juggernaut again. 

I prefer AJ Styles, Samoa Joe, Daniel Bryan, Brock Lesnar and Randy Orton as complete workers. I think Velveteen Dream has got so much about him that is completely lacking almost everywhere else you go in wrestling. I think there are a lot of guys with the potential to become far better workers in time. Hell, I don't think Omega was the best worker on DoN. Dustin Rhodes smoked him with his work, and Jericho left him behind in the promo department. From Japan, I think Tanahashi and Okada are classes above other guys. 

By the way, I said that Jericho smoked Omega in promos. Since I apparently only like screamy 80's promos, I'd like you to point to the Jericho promo heading into DoN with all the screaming, thanks. 



patpat said:


> you can add stone cold to that list. of people that thinks his facial expression is picture perfect. but hey? the opinion of some of the greatest in history that actually got over with the big audience doesn't matter! the people on the internet are more knowledgeable , didn't you learn that in middleschool?
> 
> also he doesn't scream in this promo so it sucks!!
> lol it's so ridiculous, I love omega's promos simply because they are chilled , the guy's gesture, little words here and there makes it seems like it's a guy talking to me literally. it got him over before, and I believe it will get him over here too with a mainstream audience. what I love about all of this is that so far they have proven everyone wrong,i remember people freaking out in the internet and twitter about how they are not gonna buy the ppv, how it will fail how "no one will spend that much on wrestling" , result? almost 100k with 2/3 coming from the place where it was 50$....again I am starting to see a pattern with the internet when it comes to wrestling...


Firstly, Cornette drew legitimate money in wrestling too. Secondly, what you're doing is called an appeal to authority. And if the people on the internet decide that they don't want to keep supporting AEW, god forbid that happens, then it doesn't matter what, say, Austin thinks. Didn't you learn how consumerism works in middle-school? 

I already addressed the Omega/screaming promo bullshit. 

I never said that AEW would fail. I've been one of its more staunch supporters from the start. I was in that original thread talking about how it is the right time and that there is a market for something else and that it could legitimately change wrestling forever. I was always saying that it was very likely they'd end up on TNT, and I even predicted a great deal for them (I actually went overboard on that one). You're lumping all critics together as a mass generalization to dismiss people who, say, don't like Mortal Kombat moves in Battle Royals as being the exact same as people who have called this a t-shirt company from the start, despite the Khans being more loaded than Vince McMahon. It's fallacious reasoning to slip past your side without having to address actually relevant things. 



patpat said:


> 98k buys in 2019 with 2/3 coming from America and Canada where the ppv was 50, the biggest ppv buyrates since basically wcw/the 99k ecw one ( which was the highest buyrates for ecw ever) isnt impressive?
> I mean ok. At this point I dont know what to say, suits yourselves to think that, but it being a great performance is a simple and pure fact.


No, it's not pure fact. In fact, it's the complete opposite of pure fact. It's entirely subjective and depends on how you want to frame it. 

Was it profitable? Hell, if all you want to be is profitable, then you can draw a line there. That is fact. But "great performance?" What does that even mean? 

It seems the 98k was from all over the world, so let's scrap comparisons to ECW and WCW, because while it's fun to point out how badly WCW tanked PPV in the end, you've got to keep in mind that you are comparing domestic buys to international buys. Two thirds domestic puts them, likely, ahead of TNA. You'd want to fucking hope so. TNA, nor ECW for that matter, ever ran in an arena as large as AEW did in Las Vegas. You'd want to hope that they have a larger fan-base, almost inherently. 

I'm not _trashing_ the buy-rate. There are a lot of positives here. 98k, provided that all the outlets are happy (this seems split between traditional metrics and OTT services -- since traditional PPV was not an option for many international markets which have been factored in by Meltzer), is potentially a fine base. You'd want to think that TV exposure later in the year will help them. It's been a grassroots build. It's been built almost entirely off the backs of hardcore fans, which means that this is hopefully a core that will stick around. 

There's good and bad in this information. It just depends on how you want to look at it and how you want to frame it. The buy-rate is what it is. But it's not unequivocally true to say "great performance." It's performing worse across all avenues for purchasing the event than Bellator did on traditional PPV, which Meltzer himself panned as being not good enough. I genuinely hope that number is a pleasant surprise to all and something that all parties are happy with. As a fan, I'm happy with that. But I do think that number needs to grow. I don't know if you can create new hardcores, so you might need to appeal to casuals, if that is the case. 




MJF said:


> I didn't resort to making a point about her bumping. The guy who "smoked me on the logic front" brought that up.
> 
> He literally said "Jim Cornettes point isn't that the ref cannot take control of the match, it's that referees take bumps and a match isn't believable if a petite woman is in there"
> 
> I couldn't give a shit if she takes bumps or not. I would assume if she's told to take a bump in relevance to the match she's officiating, she would. Unless of course you can tell me why she wouldn't and how her being a woman makes a match less dangerous?


Hephaesteus said that, to which you replied that there were women's matches on the card, which Hephaesteus pointed out is irrelevant, because it was a point about women refereeing men's fights, which proved that you didn't even listen to the criticisms you are apparently so staunchly opposed to. When you were asked "And?", you replied with some segue into Audrey Edwards (who did a great job on the show, by the way) taking or not being able to take bumps, which again missed the point. No one was even remotely close to suggesting that women should not bump. Wtf? Where would you even pull that from? Oh wait -- it's another dishonest representation in order to try and evade addressing an actual point. 

You then suggested she only refereed a women's match, which is not true, and suggests that you didn't watch the pre-show that a lot of these criticisms are lobbied at. You also then had the gall to accuse Hephaesteus of not having their facts right, when you missed that Edwards refereed a match between men on the show. When Hephaesteus pointed that out to you, you responded by asking "at what point during that match, did she lose control? At what point did she need to take a bump?" which completely misses the point of what a wrestling match is supposed to be from a psychological perspective. It's not about whether or not she needed to take a bump, it's that in the context of a fight, she might get struck, which makes it problematic to put a woman in there to officiate. You are ignoring that the plans for matches are not publicized before the match happens, and putting the cart before the horse. 

I would listen to arguments about whether or not a woman could referee with the intent being that she took no shit and that physically harming her would come with massive repercussions. I bought Claire Howell as a CO in Oz. That's one thing I would disagree with Cornette about here, because the purpose should not be to have referees hurt, and they should move away from that trope. Mark Curtis wasn't the biggest referee either, but he was a great official. I could buy Edwards in that role, and she was my favorite referee of the night. To be honest, I don't see why a woman couldn't referee a professional men's sport. But that wasn't your argument, because you didn't understand what you were responding to. 

And yes, you did resort to a point about her not bumping, because you blatantly asked when it was that she needed to bump, like that she didn't or that she could somehow undercut anything. Again, more dishonesty. 



Beatles123 said:


> People, Cornette is what he is. To repeat what I said earlier, he's an old fossil who just has weird opinions. Let him whine. AEW'll be fine.
> 
> No one is denying you a voice as long as you aren't dropping the same tired anti-indy talking points. Most seem to be fine but there's also "LOL THEY'LL BE DEAD IN 6 months." and thats not cool (or factual.)


I think the responses in here kind of prove that's not true. You've been an excellent poster, but it's pretty obvious looking at the likes of V-Trigger, MJF and patpat that any criticism is going to be met with emotional antagonism and fallaciously reasoned responses. The people who are "fine" get targeted and then get told to chill when they point out it is happening. I personally love the debate, but I'm just pointing out that what you're saying is not actually reflective of what is happening.



All Elite Wanking said:


> Using Hitler to make a point about a wrestler not being to your liking......that's a mental disability. Cornette has a mental disability. You defending his usage of Hitler compared to Omega is almost as bad.
> 
> You made some great points and shut down people overreacting, something that's been off the charts the past few days. But, Cornette buried himself by using a Hitler reference in any connection to wrestling.


I stand by saying it's an egregious use of Godwin's law. That's why it was named. It's far from the most effective way to make a point that isn't about fascism, but I think "mental disability" might be going a bit too far to avoid the point of what is being said, which does boil down to "if someone is awful, then them doing something good doesn't negate that awful." He wasn't saying that Omega is as awful as Hitler. But you're allowed to dislike the statement. If he ever wanted my opinion (which I'm pretty sure he could give a fuck about, lol), I would suggest he makes it an entirely different way. 

Thanks for your kind and observant words in regards the conversation. 



Arktik said:


> No one has said Cornette is like Moses walking down with the tablets. What I and others have asked is that if people are going to criticize his comments to at least fairly represent them and refute it instead of just saying "he hates modern wrestling lol".
> 
> I want to reiterate this again, I want AEW to succeed. I am fearful that they are going to let goofy indy wrestling high spots damage the best opportunity wrestling has had to knock Vince down a peg in more than 20 years. My "criticisms" are in the sense that I want to see this company do well and I would love for them to have the best product possible to get new fans and bring back old wrestling fans driven away by the WWE.


Someone with brains. Yay!


----------



## Beatles123

The Wood said:


> Because that would require engagement and intellectual honesty, and it steps on the "Cornette hates modern wrestling" point that people use to dismiss him.
> 
> 
> 
> Who's taking his word as "gospel?" Do you know what that word means? People can listen to what he says, look at the AEW product, and either agree, disagree, or find that it kind of matches what they already thought. A lot of people thought the Battle Royal was dumb shit before they heard Cornette talk about it. A lot of people find the Best Friends shtick frivolous without Cornette's input. The Young Bucks receive criticisms all over for being spot monkeys. Cornette is even more generous to them than some.
> 
> I notice you keep changing the frame that Cornette hasn't done anything in too, by the way. It was 20 years. Then you probably remembered OVW. ROH was sold to Sinclair in 2011, by the way, which was only 8 years ago. He's also still probably the best color guy in the business right now.
> 
> 
> 
> Ha, and you want to throw mud at people saying they take people's word as gospel. They can say what they want about his facial expressions. I think they fucking suck and are easily one of the worst parts of his performance. I can think for myself. I saw him come out for his match against Okada with those goofy faces, and I switched off until I could come back and watch it without the entrance. My opinion on him is valid to me. Cornette seems to agree. Many people I know do too. But even if I didn't, I could see that with my eyes and decipher it with my mind.
> 
> I never said that Omega's promos are bad because they're not like everyone else's. This is completely made-up by you for the purposes of trying to discredit an argument I am not making.
> 
> Yeah, Omega became one of the bigger stars in Japan. I mean, Jay White is like the 4th biggest now or something, isn't he? I'm not saying that what Omega did isn't impressive, but you're over-inflating the significance of it because you're in a middle. New Japan is still very niche, even in Japan. Let's not pretend Omega took New Japan Pro-Wrestling and made it this cultural juggernaut again.
> 
> I prefer AJ Styles, Samoa Joe, Daniel Bryan, Brock Lesnar and Randy Orton as complete workers. I think Velveteen Dream has got so much about him that is completely lacking almost everywhere else you go in wrestling. I think there are a lot of guys with the potential to become far better workers in time. Hell, I don't think Omega was the best worker on DoN. Dustin Rhodes smoked him with his work, and Jericho left him behind in the promo department.
> 
> By the way, I said that Jericho smoked Omega in promos. Since I apparently only like screamy 80's promos, I'd like you to point to the Jericho promo heading into DoN with all the screaming, thanks.
> 
> 
> 
> Firstly, Cornette drew legitimate money in wrestling too. What you're doing is called an appeal to authority. And if the people on the internet decide that they don't want to keep supporting AEW, god forbid that happens, then it doesn't matter what, say, Austin thinks. Didn't you learn how consumerism works in middle-school?
> 
> I already addressed the Omega/screaming promo bullshit.
> 
> I never said that AEW would fail. I've been one of its more staunch supporters from the start. I was in that original thread talking about how it is the right time and that there is a market for something else and that it could legitimately change wrestling forever. I was always saying that it was very likely they'd end up on TNT, and I even predicted a great deal for them (I actually went overboard on that one). You're lumping all critics together as a mass generalization to dismiss people who, say, don't like Mortal Kombat moves in Battle Royals as being the exact same as people who have called this a t-shirt company from the start, despite the Khans being more loaded than Vince McMahon. It's fallacious reasoning to slip past your side without having to address actually relevant things.
> 
> 
> 
> No, it's not pure fact. In fact, it's the complete opposite of pure fact. It's entirely subjective and depends on how you want to frame it.
> 
> Was it profitable? Hell, if all you want to be is profitable, then you can draw a line there. That is fact. But "great performance?" What does that even mean?
> 
> It seems the 98k was from all over the world, so let's scrap comparisons to ECW and WCW, because while it's fun to point out how badly WCW tanked PPV in the end, you've got to keep in mind that you are comparing domestic buys to international buys. Two thirds domestic puts them, likely, ahead of TNA. You'd want to fucking hope so. TNA, nor ECW for that matter, ever ran in an arena as large as AEW did in Las Vegas. You'd want to hope that they have a larger fan-base, almost inherently.
> 
> I'm not _trashing_ the buy-rate. There are a lot of positives here. 98k, provided that all the outlets are happy (this seems split between traditional metrics and OTT services -- since traditional PPV was not an option for many international markets which have been factored in by Meltzer), is potentially a fine base. You'd want to think that TV exposure later in the year will help them. It's been a grassroots build. It's been built almost entirely off the backs of hardcore fans, which means that this is hopefully a core that will stick around.
> 
> There's good and bad in this information. It just depends on how you want to look at it and how you want to frame it. The buy-rate is what it is. But it's not unequivocally true to say "great performance." It's performing across all avenues for purchasing the event than Bellator did on traditional PPV, which Meltzer himself panned as being not good enough. I genuinely hope that number is a pleasant surprise to all and something that all parties are happy with. As a fan, I'm happy with that. But I do think that number needs to grow. I don't know if you can create new hardcores, so you might need to appeal to casuals, if that is the case.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hephaesteus said that, to which you replied that there were women's matches on the card, which Hephaesteus pointed out is irrelevant, because it was a point about women refereeing men's fights, which proved that you didn't even listen to the criticisms you are apparently so staunchly opposed to. When you were asked "And?", you replied with some segue into Audrey Edwards (who did a great job on the show, by the way) taking not being able to take bumps, which again missed the point. No one was even remotely close to suggesting that women should not bump. Wtf? Where would you even pull that from? Oh wait -- it's another dishonest representation in order to try and evade addressing an actual point.
> 
> You then suggested she only refereed a women's match, which is not true, and suggests that you didn't watch the pre-show that a lot of these criticisms are lobbied at. You also then had the gall to accuse Hephaesteus of not having their facts right, when you missed that Edwards refereed a match between men on the show. When Hephaesteus pointed that out to you, you responded by asking "at what point during that match, did she lose control? At what point did she need to take a bump?" which completely misses the point of what a wrestling match is supposed to be from a psychological perspective. It's not about whether or not she needed to take a bump, it's that in the context of a fight, she might get struck, which makes it problematic to put a woman in there to officiate. You are ignoring that the plans for matches are not publicized before the match happens, and putting the cart before the horse.
> 
> I would listen to arguments about whether or not a woman could referee with the intent being that she took no shit and that physically harming her would come with massive repercussions. I bought Claire Howell as a CO in Oz. That's one thing I would disagree with Cornette about here, because the purpose should not be to have referees hurt, and they should move away from that trope. Mark Curtis wasn't the biggest referee either, but he was a great official. I could buy Edwards in that role, and she was my favorite referee of the night. To be honest, I don't see why a woman couldn't referee a professional men's sport. But that wasn't your argument, and it wasn't your point, because you didn't understand what you were responding to.
> 
> And yes, you did resort to a point about her not bumping, because you blatantly asked when it was that she needed to bump, like that she didn't or that she could somehow undercut anything. Again, more dishonesty.
> 
> 
> 
> I think my responses in here kind of prove that's not true. You've been an excellent poster, but it's pretty obvious looking at the likes of V-Trigger, MJF and patpat that any criticism is going to be met with emotional antagonism and fallaciously reasoned responses. The people who are "fine" get targeted and then get told to chill when they point out it is happening. I personally love the debate, but I'm just pointing out that what you're saying is not actually reflective of what is happening.
> 
> 
> 
> I stand by saying it's an egregious use of Godwin's law. That's why it was named. It's far from the most effective way to make a point that isn't about fascism, but I think "mental disability" might be going a bit too far to avoid the point of what is being said, which does boil down to "if someone is awful, then them doing something good doesn't negate that awful." He wasn't saying that Omega is as awful as Hitler. But you're allowed to dislike the statement. If he ever wanted my opinion (which I'm pretty sure he could give a fuck about, lol), I would suggest he makes it an entirely different way.
> 
> Thanks for your kind and observant words in regards the conversation.
> 
> 
> 
> Someone with brains. Yay!


I've never had a problem with you and I don't think they do either. Lets all ttry to realize we're all on the same team. I'd say that to them as well.

Saying AEW is filled with "Goofy" wrestling is something I disagree with though, as far as other posts in here. :shrug @Arktik ;


----------



## LIL' WINNING FOOT

Cornette says a lot of shit I simply don't agree with and his Russo "feud" has become well beyond tiresome (although I enjoy listening o his stories and booking "what ifs"). That said, I'm defending him here. He didn't even say anything that explicit or damning about Sonny Kiss. 

Also no, sometimes when people think you are being hypersensitive for anything being said or done, we rightfully call it out and it's on you if you feel a certain type of way. That's not us being "triggered" about it (a word you had to co-opt because it described you to a tee, by the way). Quit acting like you're special when, newsflash, all of us really aren't special. We're unique but not necessarily special. I'm more so referring to Sonny's boyfriend and that waste of shit Joey Ryan. Seemed like Sonny was more cordial about it on Twitter and I can respect that. Save your fake, pseudo-moralistic virtue signaling for someone who doesn't know better to not give a fuck.

Speaking of Joey Ryan, fuck you. One the reasons why I was happy he turned down an AEW contract. Fuck him. He's one of many things that is just wrong in pro wrestling today. He only has one crutch that has extended his fifteen minutes but beyond that, he really isn't shit and now he's trying to cancel Cornette? Good luck with that you creepy fuck. Ugh, I can't stand people like him.


----------



## The Wood

Nor me you, Beatles123. I find you're on the money almost all of the time. 

It's not filled to the brim with it or anything, but I just couldn't get past it in the Battle Royal. It's not a big deal to some, and if this were something that happened before the cameras went on and wasn't for an AEW World Title shot, I would be far more "whatever" about it. I just like to lose myself in logical stories in pro-wrestling, and I'm not sure why Glacier was put into a match with barely any rules to decide a potential champion while Cody and Dustin, who were in a far more important match, don't have any championship stakes. People ask these sorts of questions, believe it or not. 

It's a good thing that WWE are so ridiculous and so little makes sense that AEW has got almost unlimited wriggle room. :-D


----------



## virus21

WINNING said:


> Speaking of Joey Ryan, fuck you. One the reasons why I was happy he turned down an AEW contract. Fuck him. He's one of many things that is just wrong in pro wrestling today. He only has one crutch that has extended his fifteen minutes but beyond that, he really isn't shit and now he's trying to cancel Cornette? Good luck with that you creepy fuck. Ugh, I can't stand people like him.


That I defiantly agree with.


----------



## The Wood

On Sonny Kiss: 

Cornette's phrasing was insensitive given the tenor of the times. The word "transvestite" does not translate well. To be honest, I would have appreciated Brian Last step in here like he did with the referee thing, because it's not a point about gender or sexuality. It was a point about wrestling psychology and presentation. It's much easier to simply sweep those comments away by dismissing Cornette as homophobic, which he is not -- I mean, he tore into homophobia just last week. 

From the AEW side, I can understand why they and Sonny Kiss don't feel the need to explain why Kiss is the way he is. And that's fine. But there's a difference between that IRL and explaining why a guy rams his ass into people's faces in wrestling matches. I don't even know if Sonny Kiss is gay or not. Honestly. The guy could just enjoy dressing the way he does, for all I know. And for all Cornette knows too. So to be like "I don't understand why he's doing what he's doing," while insensitively worded, may not even be aimed at the dude's sexuality, regardless of what it is. The point was about him dressing for a fight like that and no one explaining why. 

I kind of feel like yelling at all the people calling Cornette homophobic "Not everybody who dresses like that is gay, and not every gay person dresses like that, you homophobes!" 

Still, Cornette could have vetted that a bit more succinct, which isn't his style, but he comes off "hot" on subjects where the subject isn't what he's hot at, giving people too much fire to ignore the actual point.


----------



## Beatles123

The Wood said:


> Nor me you, Beatles123. I find you're on the money almost all of the time.
> 
> It's not filled to the brim with it or anything, but I just couldn't get past it in the Battle Royal. It's not a big deal to some, and if this were something that happened before the cameras went on and wasn't for an AEW World Title shot, I would be far more "whatever" about it. I just like to lose myself in logical stories in pro-wrestling, and I'm not sure why Glacier was put into a match with barely any rules to decide a potential champion while Cody and Dustin, who were in a far more important match, don't have any championship stakes. People ask these sorts of questions, believe it or not.
> 
> It's a good thing that WWE are so ridiculous and so little makes sense that AEW has got almost unlimited wriggle room. :-D


Clearly not all of the match was meant to be taken seriously. I think people are really reading far too much into it. I will say this: As a disabled individual I popped HARD for Dustin Thomas. Some might find him gimmicky or comedic, Not me. That was pure feel-good joy for me.

Now, am I saying that Jim just shat on AEW? No. However, If you've seen what Jim thinks of the industry today it's abundantly clear that the modern state of wrestling has been utterly lost on him, if it hadn't been already.

There was NO place for what he said about Sonny. None. I don't care if it was a joke.


----------



## looper007

19 pages for a old man who stills knocks one out to Memphis wrestling and who holds a grudge like a bitter ex agaisnt anyone who upsets him. Screw him. As Bob Dylan said The Time are a Changin', and it's time for Cornette to be put into the wrestling old folk's home and let him waffle in the darkest corner of the wrestling world. 

The show has been a critical and commercial success and he can't take that away from AEW and it's workers. This is the same man who didn't think the likes of Owens, Zayn, The Bucks and Omega would be big stars and they proved him wrong.


----------



## RubberbandGoat

I happen to think the battle royal was entertaining and was supposed to be a message to the WWE. The message being that diverse people of all races, disabled people and the has beens that thought they were put out to pasture can all have a chance and basically made it look like every demographic would be represented. An alternative to the conservative minded McMahon family. Just what I got from it. Vince would never have any of those people on his show. AEW is for everyone. Great show! Proud of Cody


----------



## patpat

Beatles123 said:


> Clearly not all of the match was meant to be taken seriously. I think people are really reading far too much into it. I will say this: As a disabled individual I popped HARD for Dustin Thomas. Some might find him gimmicky or comedic, Not me. That was pure feel-good joy for me.
> 
> Now, am I saying that Jim just shat on AEW? No. However, If you've seen what Jim thinks of the industry today it's abundantly clear that the modern state of wrestling has been utterly lost on him, if it hadn't been already.
> 
> There was NO place for what he said about Sonny. None. I don't care if it was a joke.


Oh awesome! I knew Dustin Thomas would be a great inspiration, I loved his road to double or nothing video. tho some of his other matches are much more impressive than this one. :nerd:


----------



## The Wood

Beatles123 said:


> Clearly not all of the match was meant to be taken seriously. I think people are really reading far too much into it. I will say this: As a disabled individual I popped HARD for Dustin Thomas. Some might find him gimmicky or comedic, Not me. That was pure feel-good joy for me.
> 
> Now, am I saying that Jim just shat on AEW? No. However, If you've seen what Jim thinks of the industry today it's abundantly clear that the modern state of wrestling has been utterly lost on him, if it hadn't been already.
> 
> There was NO place for what he said about Sonny. None. I don't care if it was a joke.


I think that not all of your World Title match being taken seriously is kind of the point, though. It's fair enough if that doesn't matter to you, but I don't think something meant to be a joke necessarily gets a pass because that was the intention. Lots of bad things are "intentionally" bad, but that doesn't make them good. It's 15-year-old-boy syndrome. You kind of need to grow up. 

Got no problem with Dustin Thomas working. Not sure if he should be a World Title contender in a world where wins and losses are supposed to matter though. The dude's worked hard and he got to do his stuff out there. I wouldn't have had a problem with the Battle Royal if it weren't for a World Title shot, Glacier didn't freeze things, Orange Cassidy didn't do that shit, Jimmy Havoc and Joey Janela weren't trash and they stuck to their own rules (22 in a 21 Battle Royal? That is WWE shit). Thomas was _really_ low on the things that bothered me, and I actually thought he worked really realistically. 

I'm not saying that you're saying that Cornette shat on AEW. It's just obvious that is the mentality of people who can't take any criticism or want to paint Cornette's opinions with that "he hates everything modern" brush. He doesn't. It's just not correct, lol. I'm not sure if I agree with the assessment that he doesn't get what the state of it is though. I think he has it pretty well summarized. It's just that some people like the goofy shit. I don't think enough will, and I think that's going to be a very rude awakening for some people. 

Have you listened to what he said about Sonny Kiss? Just to clarify. A lot of people are saying a lot of things. He didn't actually even make a reference to Kiss' sexuality. I think the point was that he didn't know anything about Kiss. He did use "transvestite" which is just a word that needs to be dropped. Eddie Izzard can use it all he wants, but it's just got too much edge and ignorance for it to be the default. I'm sure he'll address this in the coming week, and point out that he doesn't give a fuck about what Sonny Kiss does with other people, by himself, in his bedroom or in his spare time, he just gives a fuck about what he does on his television set, lol.


----------



## Bryan Jericho

RubberbandGoat said:


> I happen to think the battle royal was entertaining and was supposed to be a message to the WWE. The message being that diverse people of all races, disabled people and the has beens that thought they were put out to pasture can all have a chance and basically made it look like every demographic would be represented. An alternative to the conservative minded McMahon family. Just what I got from it. Vince would never have any of those people on his show. AEW is for everyone. Great show! Proud of Cody


But hasn't Vince had people like that on his roster through the years? He's had all races and disabled people and has beens before. So its really not some new thing.


----------



## The Wood

RubberbandGoat said:


> I happen to think the battle royal was entertaining and was supposed to be a message to the WWE. The message being that diverse people of all races, disabled people and the has beens that thought they were put out to pasture can all have a chance and basically made it look like every demographic would be represented. An alternative to the conservative minded McMahon family. Just what I got from it. Vince would never have any of those people on his show. AEW is for everyone. Great show! Proud of Cody


That's an interesting take on it. I do think that most of those people would be given WWE contracts though (and indeed some have). Now, would they be treated right? Almost definitely not.



Bryan Jericho said:


> But hasn't Vince had people like that on his roster through the years? He's had all races and disabled people and has beens before. So its really not some new thing.


Yeah, he's had Billy Gunn and Tommy Dreamer under contract. Billy appeared on WWE TV this year. Dreamer has wrestled with them within the last 5 years, I believe. The upcoming Saudi PPV is basically built around old-timers. 

He's had Zach Gowen. He's had Darren Young and Orlando Jordan. Behind the scenes, Pat Patterson and Steve Lombardi had prominent positions. I'm fairly certain they have someone from every continent under contract. Is it tokenism? Probably, but they're there.


----------



## RubberbandGoat

For instance, Dustin Thomas the amputee, he was there to show that a person without legs can be a wrestler too. It tugs at your heart strings a bit. I’m sure he inspired people out there. Sonny Kiss, Nyla Rose, two transgendered wrestlers were on a PPV. WWE likes to be the land of firsts. Well, Vince hasn’t had a transgendered wrestler in a women’s high profile match yet, AEW did. I look at it as them showing that multiple people from several backgrounds can make it, and that Vince is too narrow minded and pig headed to give those people a chance. Yes he’s had disabled people and others before but he treated them bad. It took til 2019 to get an African American representing his company as the guy and our last vision of Zach Gowen was Brock murdering him. Just sayin!


----------



## Soul Rex

I agree on two things, Kenny Omega is a bit overrated and The Young Bucks are trash.


----------



## The Raw Smackdown

I'm not understanding why something like Sonny Kiss doing what he did to Tommy Dreamer needs to be explained but okay.


----------



## Beatles123

The Wood said:


> I think that not all of your World Title match being taken seriously is kind of the point, though. It's fair enough if that doesn't matter to you, but I don't think something meant to be a joke necessarily gets a pass because that was the intention. Lots of bad things are "intentionally" bad, but that doesn't make them good. It's 15-year-old-boy syndrome. You kind of need to grow up.
> 
> Got no problem with Dustin Thomas working. Not sure if he should be a World Title contender in a world where wins and losses are supposed to matter though. The dude's worked hard and he got to do his stuff out there. I wouldn't have had a problem with the Battle Royal if it weren't for a World Title shot, Glacier didn't freeze things, Orange Cassidy didn't do that shit, Jimmy Havoc and Joey Janela weren't trash and they stuck to their own rules (22 in a 21 Battle Royal? That is WWE shit). Thomas was _really_ low on the things that bothered me, and I actually thought he worked really realistically.
> 
> I'm not saying that you're saying that Cornette shat on AEW. It's just obvious that is the mentality of people who can't take any criticism or want to paint Cornette's opinions with that "he hates everything modern" brush. He doesn't. It's just not correct, lol. I'm not sure if I agree with the assessment that he doesn't get what the state of it is though. I think he has it pretty well summarized. It's just that some people like the goofy shit. I don't think enough will, and I think that's going to be a very rude awakening for some people.
> 
> Have you listened to what he said about Sonny Kiss? Just to clarify. A lot of people are saying a lot of things. He didn't actually even make a reference to Kiss' sexuality. I think the point was that he didn't know anything about Kiss. He did use "transvestite" which is just a word that needs to be dropped. Eddie Izzard can use it all he wants, but it's just got too much edge and ignorance for it to be the default. I'm sure he'll address this in the coming week, and point out that he doesn't give a fuck about what Sonny Kiss does with other people, by himself, in his bedroom or in his spare time, he just gives a fuck about what he does on his television set, lol.


I have listened to Cornette a lot and I don't think he's someone with a lot of respect for the future at all. I get that his views are like a lot of vets: "The young guys need to stop doing flippy shit" but when he over-simplifies it by saying that, he misses the point entirely. His grudges against the elite in particular are beyond petty at this point. NOT that he should be de-platformed or silenced, but he's beginning to be the old man who yells at the kids to get of his lawn. This isn't a narrative, its fact. I have heard him do this time and time again.

No one ASKED him to give a fuck what Sonny does. Quite frankly I am proud of the way AEW has handled the LGBTQ wrestlers. They haven't made being non-binary a big deal when promoting Sonny, and if they want to shake her ass in his movset, she can. (See what I did there?) I think him even taking issue with it enough to complain about it at all using the tone and verbiage he did as if to him Sonny wasn't worth the shit on his shoes was uncalled for and he deserves all the heat he's getting for it. 

Equating the battle royal to 15 year old humor is a bit much. Yeah, we bitch when WWE does it but AEW also doesn't load down entire cards with it. Asside from that battle royal we had a very serious show, so I think they can afford a few silly spots here or there. Glacier and stuff are just fan service. Nothing to get that worked up over. It wasnt like the match didnt get serious after a point. Now if AEW do that stuff all the time, then i'll complain....by all indications they won't, though. Not enough to water the shows down.

I still reserve the right to mark for any and all future Orange Cassidy shenanigans, however. :lenny

All in all the CBR is such a minor note to an otherwise great show and Cornette is....Cornette. Let him be a stick in the mud if he wants, AEW are already pissing off enough geezers as it is and im loving it. These people have been gatekeeping the industry far too long and thats all I've got to say about that.


----------



## NascarStan

Jim Cornette philosophy of wrestling does not work in 2019, he tried it in ROH and it failed

For someone who does not like silly shit he booked a zombie

Also Cornette who claims to be so progression uses the word transvestite in 2019 called Sunny Kiss a transvestite and he had the Gangstas gimmick in Smokey Mountain

In general Corny is a hypocrite and I don't know why anyone takes his opinion on modern wrestling seriously, his opinion is about as worthless as Russo's


----------



## The Wood

Soul Rex said:


> I agree on two things, Kenny Omega is a bit overrated and The Young Bucks are trash.


Be careful. Agreeing to that is apparently taking something someone else says as "gospel." 



Beatles123 said:


> I have listened to Cornette a lot and I don't think he's someone with a lot of respect for the future at all. I get that his views are like a lot of vets: "The young guys need to stop doing flippy shit" but when he over-simplifies it by saying that, he misses the point entirely. His grudges against the elite in particular are beyond petty at this point. NOT that he should be de-platformed or silenced, but he's beginning to be the old man who yells at the kids to get of his lawn. This isn't a narrative, its fact. I have heard him do this time and time again.
> 
> No one ASKED him to give a fuck what Sonny does. Quite frankly I am proud of the way AEW has handled the LGBTQ wrestlers. They haven't made being non-binary a big deal when promoting Sonny, and if they want to shake her ass in his movset, she can. (See what I did there?) I think him even taking issue with it enough to complain about it at all using the tone and verbiage he did as if to him Sonny wasn't worth the shit on his shoes was uncalled for and he deserves all the heat he's getting for it.
> 
> Equating the battle royal to 15 year old humor is a bit much. Yeah, we bitch when WWE does it but AEW also doesn't load down entire cards with it. Asside from that battle royal we had a very serious show, so I think they can afford a few silly spots here or there. Glacier and stuff are just fan service. Nothing to get that worked up over. It wasnt like the match didnt get serious after a point. Now if AEW do that stuff all the time, then i'll complain....by all indications they won't, though. Not enough to water the shows down.
> 
> I still reserve the right to mark for any and all future Orange Cassidy shenanigans, however. :lenny
> 
> All in all the CBR is such a minor note to an otherwise great show and Cornette is....Cornette. Let him be a stick in the mud if he wants, AEW are already pissing off enough geezers as it is and im loving it. These people have been gatekeeping the industry far too long and thats all I've got to say about that.


Can you find me any concrete examples, because I listen to Cornette a lot, and I have _never_ heard things oversimplified like that. All his stuff is on YouTube. Just tell me who he was talking about and I will go through and try and find the clip. That whole oversimplified thing are the sore wrestling fans who get emotional when he criticizes a darling like Steen or Generico. I've never heard him say to "cut out the flippy shit" without adding some sort of qualifier in there about why. 

His grudge against The Elite isn't even against The Elite. He likes Cody a lot and complimented Hangman Page. He's not big on The Bucks because their psychology is shit (which it is, and I think most people can admit that even if they are fans) and Omega because of his personal dealings with him, as well as many of Omega's decisions and his annoying facials. Those are fair criticisms and aren't petty if they affect your enjoyment of a show. I personally know many people who can't even watch The Bucks. I don't know anyone in the same boat with Omega, but plenty of people find his faces annoying (me included) and find that frustrating when trying to enjoy an otherwise fine wrestler. 

I care about his commentary on wrestling. I was excited to hear it all week. Many people were. There's a thread about it here. I'm not sure why you'd think people wouldn't care? I absolutely love that they're not box-ticking and doing the tokenism inclusion thing too. I've said that I totally get why they wouldn't feel the need to "explain" Sonny Kiss' sexuality and gender fluidity (also something I am hearing about for the first time). It will be great to see things normalized. But the thing is, you need to explain any gimmick to an audience. You should be able to tell who is a babyface and who is a heel when they walk out. Why a wrestler wears a certain piece of clothing should have some sort of reasoning behind it. Ironically, they've made Sonny Kiss' identity a much bigger thing through shitty storytelling. That's kind of a relevant point on its own. 

No, it was 15-year-old syndrome. It was unrestrained purposely bad because we think bad is cool gimmicky stuff. This is the sort of stuff they stamp out of you in any sort of creative profession. There was nothing serious about the Best Friends match. They tried to hug mid-match, for crying out loud. You can't just whip back and forth between tone because you want to either. It changes the rules of the world you set your stories in. The Battle Royal poisoned a lot of the show for me. Just like you are allowed to mark out for Orange Cassidy, I am allowed to deny them my money. We will see which audience is bigger. 

The gate-keeping people really need to be worried about is toxic fandom. They're really playing to the hardcore fans, and I can imagine it will be hard to become a new fan of something that hardcore fans feel an ownership over. I've said before that this is a growing problem even in WWE. Vince is now at the whim to them, and who really wants to bother investing their time, or taking their kid, to a show where the audience is, by-and-large going to shit on everything and scream at you how Roman sucks? That's largely WWE's fault too. Lol, Cornette gate-keeping the industry. The guy basically begged to go down and train wrestlers so wrestling would have fresh stars. He bent over backwards for ROH, even though the fans hated the on-air. WWE have monopolized it, but that's a separate issue. 



RubberbandGoat said:


> For instance, Dustin Thomas the amputee, he was there to show that a person without legs can be a wrestler too. It tugs at your heart strings a bit. I’m sure he inspired people out there. Sonny Kiss, Nyla Rose, two transgendered wrestlers were on a PPV. WWE likes to be the land of firsts. Well, Vince hasn’t had a transgendered wrestler in a women’s high profile match yet, AEW did. I look at it as them showing that multiple people from several backgrounds can make it, and that Vince is too narrow minded and pig headed to give those people a chance. Yes he’s had disabled people and others before but he treated them bad. It took til 2019 to get an African American representing his company as the guy and our last vision of Zach Gowen was Brock murdering him. Just sayin!


I agree with you about Dustin Thomas, but Zach Gowen did exist. Yeah, he got murdered by Brock, but Dustin Thomas got his ass kicked all throughout that Battle Royal, save for a few spots and eliminating Shawn Spears. I'm sure Gowen pinned someone at one point. Actually, didn't he beat Matt Hardy? 

The real "first" is Nyla Rose, and that's great for her and AEW, but she wasn't in that Battle Royal anyway, so I'm not sure how that ties into your initial point about the Battle Royal, lol.


----------



## RubberbandGoat

I am stating that Vince can be petty and prejudice and showing transgendered wrestlers doing well is something he wouldn’t do on his show! He’s an angry white guy republican. They have old school mentality! He doesn’t support gay rights. So it was a message sent to them that they’re going to accept everyone and are up to date on culture today


----------



## Beatles123

The Wood said:


> Be careful. Agreeing to that is apparently taking something someone else says as "gospel."
> 
> 
> 
> Can you find me any concrete examples, because I listen to Cornette a lot, and I have _never_ heard things oversimplified like that. All his stuff is on YouTube. Just tell me who he was talking about and I will go through and try and find the clip. That whole oversimplified thing are the sore wrestling fans who get emotional when he criticizes a darling like Steen or Generico. I've never heard him say to "cut out the flippy shit" without adding some sort of qualifier in there about why.
> 
> His grudge against The Elite isn't even against The Elite. He likes Cody a lot and complimented Hangman Page. He's not big on The Bucks because their psychology is shit (which it is, and I think most people can admit that even if they are fans) and Omega because of his personal dealings with him, as well as many of Omega's decisions and his annoying facials. Those are fair criticisms and aren't petty if they affect your enjoyment of a show. I personally know many people who can't even watch The Bucks. I don't know anyone in the same boat with Omega, but plenty of people find his faces annoying (me included) and find that frustrating when trying to enjoy an otherwise fine wrestler.
> 
> I care about his commentary on wrestling. I was excited to hear it all week. Many people were. There's a thread about it here. I'm not sure why you'd think people wouldn't care? I absolutely love that they're not box-ticking and doing the tokenism inclusion thing too. I've said that I totally get why they wouldn't feel the need to "explain" Sonny Kiss' sexuality and gender fluidity (also something I am hearing about for the first time). It will be great to see things normalized. But the thing is, you need to explain any gimmick to an audience. You should be able to tell who is a babyface and who is a heel when they walk out. Why a wrestler wears a certain piece of clothing should have some sort of reasoning behind it. Ironically, they've made Sonny Kiss' identity a much bigger thing through shitty storytelling. That's kind of a relevant point on its own.
> 
> No, it was 15-year-old syndrome. It was unrestrained purposely bad because we think bad is cool gimmicky stuff. This is the sort of stuff they stamp out of you in any sort of creative profession. There was nothing serious about the Best Friends match. They tried to hug mid-match, for crying out loud. You can't just whip back and forth between tone because you want to either. It changes the rules of the world you set your stories in. The Battle Royal poisoned a lot of the show for me. Just like you are allowed to mark out for Orange Cassidy, I am allowed to deny them my money. We will see which audience is bigger.
> 
> The gate-keeping people really need to be worried about is toxic fandom. They're really playing to the hardcore fans, and I can imagine it will be hard to become a new fan of something that hardcore fans feel an ownership over. I've said before that this is a growing problem even in WWE. Vince is now at the whim to them, and who really wants to bother investing their time, or taking their kid, to a show where the audience is, by-and-large going to shit on everything and scream at you how Roman sucks? That's largely WWE's fault too. Lol, Cornette gate-keeping the industry. The guy basically begged to go down and train wrestlers so wrestling would have fresh stars. He bent over backwards for ROH, even though the fans hated the on-air. WWE have monopolized it, but that's a separate issue.
> 
> 
> 
> I agree with you about Dustin Thomas, but Zach Gowen did exist. Yeah, he got murdered by Brock, but Dustin Thomas got his ass kicked all throughout that Battle Royal, save for a few spots and eliminating Shawn Spears. I'm sure Gowen pinned someone at one point. Actually, didn't he beat Matt Hardy?
> 
> The real "first" is Nyla Rose, and that's great for her and AEW, but she wasn't in that Battle Royal anyway, so I'm not sure how that ties into your initial point about the Battle Royal, lol.


I can't tell you one specific video or quote because when I hear Jim its very seldom (Wish it were even less at this rate, but im not going to deny him his freedom of speech.) I just know I have listened to him plenty of times spewing the same drivel about the same few people and its nauseating at this point. Even now i'm trying not to get irrational and bring my own emotion when I say this but everything you just listed as reasons why he dislikes them are, to my mind, hogwash. I understand that to you maybe those things and his reasoning are important. Not to me and that's putting it mildly. As mild and milquetoast as i can possibly put it, the notion that the Bucks don't sell in particular irksme to no end and this is a conversation we are probably best served not having with each other. The whole slew of complaints I hear from him, just awful. Again, I'm not begrudging anyone the freedom to agree with him, but I AM begrudging the way he presents his arguments like an old windbag incapable of feeling any joy in his codger-y soul. 

Cornette was NOT only hated on air during his ROH run either. However, I need to stop. You like him if you want. I can't continue letting him occupy space in my head.

EDIT:

We're apparently going to butt heads on these things more than I anticipated. I really have to disagree with you on Best friends. I'm sort of shocked this is the direction this is going but, again, if nothing else you do you. im being as minimalist as I can and please excuse me if it seems im turning tail. Im just not in the mood to justify different wrestling tastes....I think your stance on "Seeing which audience is bigger" seems a bit condescending if im honest. Maybe that wasnt the intention but its what i got from it.


----------



## Obfuscation

To clarify for future education going forward, "transgendered" isn't a thing. It's trans. Just you know, helpful when you want to call out those you disagree with, while not falling into homophobia/transphobia yourself.


----------



## Geeee

AverageJoe9 said:


> Jim Cornette philosophy of wrestling does not work in 2019, he tried it in ROH and it failed
> 
> For someone who does not like silly shit he booked a zombie
> 
> Also Cornette who claims to be so progression uses the word transvestite in 2019 called Sunny Kiss a transvestite and he had the Gangstas gimmick in Smokey Mountain
> 
> In general Corny is a hypocrite and I don't know why anyone takes his opinion on modern wrestling seriously, his opinion is about as worthless as Russo's


Isn't transvestite when a CIS dude dresses in drag? Or do we just say drag or drag queen?


----------



## The Wood

RubberbandGoat said:


> I am stating that Vince can be petty and prejudice and showing transgendered wrestlers doing well is something he wouldn’t do on his show! He’s an angry white guy republican. They have old school mentality! He doesn’t support gay rights. So it was a message sent to them that they’re going to accept everyone and are up to date on culture today


Hey, I'm all with Vince going down. Not going to argue with that. I do think your thesis needs a bit more evidence to actually support it, but I'm all for Vince being exposed. 



Beatles123 said:


> I can't tell you one specific video or quote because when I hear Jim its very seldom (Wish it were even less at this rate, but im not going to deny him his freedom of speech.) I just know I have listened to him plenty of times spewing the same drivel about the same few people and its nauseating at this point. Even now i'm trying not to get irrational and bring my own emotion when I say this but everything you just listed as reasons why he dislikes them are, to my mind, hogwash. I understand that to you maybe those things and his reasoning are important. Not to me and that's putting it mildly. As mild and milquetoast as i can possibly put it, the notion that the Bucks don't sell in particular irksme to no end and this is a conversation we are probably best served not having with each other. The whole slew of complaints I hear from him, just awful. Again, I'm not begrudging anyone the freedom to agree with him, but I AM begrudging the way he presents his arguments like an old windbag incapable of feeling any joy in his codger-y soul.
> 
> Cornette was NOT only hated on air during his ROH run either. However, I need to stop. You like him if you want. I can't continue letting him occupy space in my head.


No offense, but I'm going to call bullshit until something is actually provided. Maybe you think you've heard that, but I can literally think of no examples where he's said "cut out the flippy shit." He doesn't even hate flippy shit. I think you're either confusing him with something else, or conflating the bullshit arguments people make about him with things you may have heard him say. He criticizes the overuse of moves that should finish opponents, and then explains why doing, say, a thousand superkicks makes people look shit if they can't win a match by that point. But that's not the same thing as what you're saying he says. 

It's fine it doesn't bother you, and that's your own right. But the reason it bothers other people is because there is a reason that is important. It's fundamental to telling a story and getting things genuinely over. It's why when you get to the end of that Bucks/Luchas match at DoN, the crowd is really flat at the finish. It just happens. This might not matter to you, but those criticisms are fair and valid when explaining why something is happening. 

Cornette is the reason ROH is still around. I think Meltzer, at one point, even said that he was one of the most important people in its history. If they didn't sell to Sinclair, they would literally have closed their doors.



Obfuscation said:


> To clarify for future education going forward, "transgendered" isn't a thing. It's trans. Just you know, helpful when you want to call out those you disagree with, while not falling into homophobia/transphobia yourself.


Very important to keep on top of the lingo and make sure that you aren't using actual slurs even with good intention. It happens and I know I'm learning.



Geeee said:


> Isn't transvestite when a CIS dude dresses in drag? Or do we just say drag or drag queen?


From what research I've done, some embrace the word and others reject it, because it gets muddled with too much negative stuff. In the real world, it's probably safe to ask someone what they want to be known as, if it's ever important, which it usually isn't. If you see someone that appears to be a man wearing a dress, you can either just not pay attention or if you need to talk to them say "Hello" and find out their name or whatever. 

I've gone a long time without ever needing to use any of those words, to be honest. But I don't watch RuPaul because that shit doesn't do it for me.


----------



## Beatles123

The Wood said:


> Hey, I'm all with Vince going down. Not going to argue with that. I do think your thesis needs a bit more evidence to actually support it, but I'm all for Vince being exposed.
> 
> 
> 
> No offense, but I'm going to call bullshit until something is actually provided. Maybe you think you've heard that, but I can literally think of no examples where he's said "cut out the flippy shit." He doesn't even hate flippy shit. I think you're either confusing him with something else, or conflating the bullshit arguments people make about him with things you may have heard him say. He criticizes the overuse of moves that should finish opponents, and then explains why doing, say, a thousand superkicks makes people look shit if they can't win a match by that point. But that's not the same thing as what you're saying he says.
> 
> It's fine it doesn't bother you, and that's your own right. But the reason it bothers other people is because there is a reason that is important. It's fundamental to telling a story and getting things genuinely over. It's why when you get to the end of that Bucks/Luchas match at DoN, the crowd is really flat at the finish. It just happens. This might not matter to you, but those criticisms are fair and valid when explaining why something is happening.
> 
> Cornette is the reason ROH is still around. I think Meltzer, at one point, even said that he was one of the most important people in its history. If they didn't sell to Sinclair, they would literally have closed their doors.
> 
> 
> 
> Very important to keep on top of the lingo and make sure that you aren't using actual slurs even with good intention. It happens and I know I'm learning.


Again, we aren't in agreement here but in the interest of being fair I'll state that I never said he said those exact words. At least, that wasnt what i was trying to imply. However I wouldn't be surprised one bit if he did. His arguments seem to amount to that however, and the reasoning you gave, while something they ARE guilty of, is nowhere NEAR as bad as you or he make it seem...but if I continue this I WILL get irrational and I don't wish to do so. There are political threads in the Anything section with the same uncomfortable vibe im getting if I'm truly honest. All I want is to not take this somewhere it needn't go :flair


----------



## The Wood

Beatles123 said:


> Again, we aren't in agreement here but in the interest of being fair I'll state that I never said he said those exact words. At least, that wasnt what i was trying to imply. However I wouldn't be surprised one bit if he did. His arguments seem to amount to that however, and the reasoning you gave, while something they ARE guilty of, is nowhere NEAR as bad as you or he make it seem...but if I continue this I WILL get irrational and I don't wish to do so. There are political threads in the Anything section with the same uncomfortable vibe im getting if I'm truly honest. All I want is not take this somewhere it needn't go :flair


Haha, okay, we'll drop it. I may have taken you too literally. I disagree that his arguments can be reduced to that, but that's cool. I hope more people give him a listen and make up their own mind, regardless of which way they fall. 

I try to stay out of the political threads. Or, if I do make an appearance, I blast some people with what I think is logic, then get out and never go back. Those sorts of conversations can be exhausting.


----------



## DoctorWhosawhatsit

virus21 said:


> Cornette has pretty much hated everything about wrestling since 1990


Accurate... I like Cornette but... Accurate.


----------



## Beatles123

The Wood said:


> Haha, okay, we'll drop it. I may have taken you too literally. I disagree that his arguments can be reduced to that, but that's cool. I hope more people give him a listen and make up their own mind, regardless of which way they fall.


Much to my chagrin, people already have. :mj2 AEW is a good step forward as far as getting people out of his cave, though.


----------



## JerryMark

a few things...

that battle royal was indefensible. i also that orange cassidy is a thing and concluded he's the most embarrassing thing to ever enter a ring. too bad the sheik isn't alive to zip him with a blade.

jim said steen wouldn't succeed unless he dropped some weight and got a better attitude (which he apparently did) and whoever describe zayn as a wrestling UPS driver made the most accurate statement ever, corny and zero charisma...

AEW is gonna have to appeal to way more than the flip marks and guys in lizard masks and 140lb tag team members ain't gonna do it.


----------



## SAMCRO

Yeah wtf is Orange Cassidy's deal? dude comes in hands in his pockets and starts play kicking Dreamer, i just didn't get that at all, was it supposed to be funny? was he part of the match? seemed like he just appeared outta nowhere to act stupid and accomplish nothing.


----------



## Beatles123

fpalm you guys have no sense of humor. You don't deserve Gentleman Jervis


----------



## patpat

The thing is Cassidy got eliminated , his offenses were ineffective and he got his ass kicked. If he actually did a shit and it hurt anyone I would understand the outrage but he got shit on by dreamer, so you can call it a waste of time but going out here and screaming it's the worst thing to ever happen in pro wrestling is a joke :lol 
Also I LOVE how everyone here comes out screaming they arent going to appeal to a mainstream audience and if they want to appeal to anything other than smark they need to do this or that or this. Everyone is an expert and seen to think they know what they should do. 
When in reality they DID appeal to a larger audience, their Google trend did NFL-tier numbers the night of double or nothing, the show was an absolute critical success, mainstream authorities were talking about it, they buyrate is now past 100k , it beat the last UFC ppv and is the biggest non wwe ppv since the death of wcw. I keep seeing people saying how and what they should do to appeal to larger audience but....they did? I saw a lot of very old fans, those who gave up on the sport watch it. Even some random casual talking about it, in fact they have the privilege of being mentioned on wwe TV after their first show, first at the hall of fame ( one of the biggest show in wwe) , Shane o mac used Jericho's new technique , and aew got name dropped on raw. That's more done with one show than anybody else could do. 
Those boys, whether you like it or not are absolutely dwarfing their predecessor in the process of creating an alternative , in fact the only one I could say they didn't beat yet is the genius Paul Heyman. 
Some of those old fart like Eric bischoff just admits it's not their time anymore and just give them advises ( stay focus/dont get a big head/have a clear direction) and others are getting their jimmies rustled hard. 
And again , Kenny omega doesnt give a shit about cornette's opinion, Stone cold Steve Austin praised him as the best in the world and the next big thing , Bret hart loves him, Chris Jericho loves him and trust him, when all those legends tell you you are the man , cornette's opinion could mean shit to you. Omega even almost defended him saying he is playing a heel character :lol


----------



## SAMCRO

patpat said:


> *The thing is Cassidy got eliminated , his offenses were ineffective and he got his ass kicked. If he actually did a shit and it hurt anyone I would understand the outrage but he got shit on by dreamer, so you can call it a waste of time but going out here and screaming it's the worst thing to ever happen in pro wrestling is a joke *:lol
> Also I LOVE how everyone here comes out screaming they arent going to appeal to a mainstream audience and if they want to appeal to anything other than smark they need to do this or that or this. Everyone is an expert and seen to think they know what they should do.
> When in reality they DID appeal to a larger audience, their Google trend did NFL-tier numbers the night of double or nothing, the show was an absolute critical success, mainstream authorities were talking about it, they buyrate is now past 100k , it beat the last UFC ppv and is the biggest non wwe ppv since the death of wcw. I keep seeing people saying how and what they should do to appeal to larger audience but....they did? I saw a lot of very old fans, those who gave up on the sport watch it. Even some random casual talking about it, in fact they have the privilege of being mentioned on wwe TV after their first show, first at the hall of fame ( one of the biggest show in wwe) , Shane o mac used Jericho's new technique , and aew got name dropped on raw. That's more done with one show than anybody else could do.
> Those boys, whether you like it or not are absolutely dwarfing their predecessor in the process of creating an alternative , in fact the only one I could say they didn't beat yet is the genius Paul Heyman.
> Some of those old fart like Eric bischoff just admits it's not their time anymore and just give them advises ( stay focus/dont get a big head/have a clear direction) and others are getting their jimmies rustled hard.
> And again , Kenny omega doesnt give a shit about cornette's opinion, Stone cold Steve Austin praised him as the best in the world and the next big thing , Bret hart loves him, Chris Jericho loves him and trust him, when all those legends tell you you are the man , cornette's opinion could mean shit to you. Omega even almost defended him saying he is playing a heel character :lol


Thing is this match was for a shot at the AEW world title, and he comes in there doing that? I could give it a pass if this was just a battle royal with nothing on the line but ffs its for a shot at the world title and thats what you choose to do? go in there trying to be funny? It makes it look like these guys gives no fucks about your world title.


----------



## TD Stinger

Orange Cassidy is basically there for comedy. And his performance in the match, it was pretty inoffensive. He came in, pissed of Dream with his antics, and got quickly eliminated. Didn't make Dreamer look bad at all in my eyes. Did what anyone would in that situation which is beat him up and throw him out quick.

Cassidy to me is a case of comedy wrestling done right because he has his own unique shtick. Now, If I saw that on a consistent basis, I might get sick of it. But for one night, there was nothing wrong with it in my eyes.

The thing about the whole BR I do agree with Cornette about is that they didn't do a good job of introducing some of these talents. They all just came out together and you were expected to know most of them. I remember when WWE did their Evolution show last year and they had a Battle Royal. All the women got their own separate entrances and they each got a 5/10 second intro from commentary. To me, that's all I ask. Something like that.


----------



## V-Trigger

Funny how the comedy makes the wrestlers laugh (Nakazawa, Jericho and Mike Tyson segment on latest Road to DoN) but it makes people angry for some reason.


----------



## V-Trigger

Soul Rex said:


> I agree on two things, Kenny Omega is a bit overrated and The Young Bucks are trash.


Nice opinion without explaining your points. Don't know why I even bother to eat the bait tbh.


----------



## patpat

thing is the Battle Royale became more important than it was supposed to be due to the whole pac's thing. also some of those gimmicks just can't be explained. how are you supposed to explain sonny kiss? :lol 
also the preshow was almost universally criticized too tho. 
also putting stupid shit in important Battle Royale is new? like the royale rumble is the same, opportunity to fight the world champ at the main event of mania and you had things like Santino mareltla and a lot of dumb, because everyone know they are not gonna win. that's it, you can't expect this Battle Royale to have the cream of the talents because not only their roster doesn't permit that and Battle Royale almost always have funny shit no matter what's on the line.


----------



## patpat

V-Trigger said:


> Nice opinion without explaining your points. Don't know why I even bother to eat the bait tbh.


Kenny Omega was called overrated in Japan , then he had match with Naito and every fucking one shut up. the "best bout machine" jump literally made everyone shut up and admit he was godly, I expect the same to happen in the US.


----------



## Chan Hung

The problem with the Battle Royal is you can't have a battle royal with everybody being really good at this stage because I don't think aew has that amount of Talent per se


----------



## The Wood

V-Trigger said:


> Nice opinion without explaining your points. Don't know why I even bother to eat the bait tbh.


Yes, it's bait if someone has a different opinion to you. 

Soul Rex doesn't _need_ to clarify more. Even without context, they're allowed to just not like wrestlers. But the thing is, Rex actually provided context by saying he agrees with Cornette about those things. So you can extrapolate that as meaning that Soul Rex agrees with the criticisms Cornette lobbies at Omega and the Bucks. I know they don't make sense to you, but they do to plenty of people. 



patpat said:


> The thing is Cassidy got eliminated , his offenses were ineffective and he got his ass kicked. If he actually did a shit and it hurt anyone I would understand the outrage but he got shit on by dreamer, so you can call it a waste of time but going out here and screaming it's the worst thing to ever happen in pro wrestling is a joke :lol
> Also I LOVE how everyone here comes out screaming they arent going to appeal to a mainstream audience and if they want to appeal to anything other than smark they need to do this or that or this. Everyone is an expert and seen to think they know what they should do.
> When in reality they DID appeal to a larger audience, their Google trend did NFL-tier numbers the night of double or nothing, the show was an absolute critical success, mainstream authorities were talking about it, they buyrate is now past 100k , it beat the last UFC ppv and is the biggest non wwe ppv since the death of wcw. I keep seeing people saying how and what they should do to appeal to larger audience but....they did? I saw a lot of very old fans, those who gave up on the sport watch it. Even some random casual talking about it, in fact they have the privilege of being mentioned on wwe TV after their first show, first at the hall of fame ( one of the biggest show in wwe) , Shane o mac used Jericho's new technique , and aew got name dropped on raw. That's more done with one show than anybody else could do.
> Those boys, whether you like it or not are absolutely dwarfing their predecessor in the process of creating an alternative , in fact the only one I could say they didn't beat yet is the genius Paul Heyman.
> Some of those old fart like Eric bischoff just admits it's not their time anymore and just give them advises ( stay focus/dont get a big head/have a clear direction) and others are getting their jimmies rustled hard.
> And again , Kenny omega doesnt give a shit about cornette's opinion, Stone cold Steve Austin praised him as the best in the world and the next big thing , Bret hart loves him, Chris Jericho loves him and trust him, when all those legends tell you you are the man , cornette's opinion could mean shit to you. Omega even almost defended him saying he is playing a heel character :lol


The thing is...how does that make any sense? Why would someone get in the ring and jokingly try and punch Tyson in a Heavyweight Title match? None of it makes any sense. Seriously, if you watch wrestling with kids, they ask these fucking questions. They see through this and think it's "stupid." There is no reason for a guy to enter a Battle Royal for a World Title shot (unofficially too -- or was it?) and pretend to fight. TV isn't a great analogue, but this would be like someone trying to give a wet willy to The Mountain in Game of Thrones.

Well, guys that have years of experience in the business do know what they can do. God knows Cornette has been proven right countless times before. The guy basically predicted the state WWE would be in twenty years ago. People don't have to like him to admit that. And pundits are also experts in what they like, what their friends who don't like wrestling hate about it, and can also read and relate information from wiser sources. I mean, wrestling isn't new. A lot of people know why the Chikara shit isn't going to fly with people, and they can back up this reasoning with examples. You really have to limit your scope to suggest there are no precedents for what does and doesn't work. 

Your measuring of their appeal is skewered. I think we've gone through this, but the 98k buy thing was worldwide and across all mediums. According to Meltzer, it two thirds of that was North American, which means about 66,000 buys between traditional PPV, B/R Live and whatever it was on in Canada. It did not beat TNA's best offering on domestic PPV, which was something like 65,000 through one platform (and yes, that will matter to the platforms who get paid based on how many people use them). You're also comparing their worldwide buys to a number UFC generated exclusively through the ESPN+ app. How is that fair? The Google trends just mean people searched for it. It obviously didn't mean that people bought it, nor does it mean that people liked what they did see. 

Bret Hart once said that Melina was one of the best workers in wrestling. Jericho saw great things in Ryback and thinks Cyrus is a genius. I don't even know what Austin is into these days. Sometimes the best players don't make the best coaches. Cornette might not be as big a star as Austin or Bret were, but the dude has made a ton of money in wrestling and understands it as well as any of those guys. There's just a recency bias when it comes to guys like Jericho and Austin because you saw them wrestle more recently. Cornette isn't playing a character -- I think that just makes his criticisms easier for people to deflect. Omega might not give a shit about it, and that's his prerogative, but listening to someone with a wealth of experience like Cornette would only make him better. You can choose what you want to take on board and what you don't. But to say that Jericho, Austin and Bret (all three of whom I imagine would have a tremendous amount of respect for Cornette -- Montreal Screwjob to the side) immediately discount Cornette is as subjective as the criticisms you dismiss. 



V-Trigger said:


> Funny how the comedy makes the wrestlers laugh (Nakazawa, Jericho and Mike Tyson segment on latest Road to DoN) but it makes people angry for some reason.


The answer to this is simple: They live in a bubble. These people already love wrestling and are obsessed with it. They do and see so much of it that they think subversion of the form is clever and innovative. They don't really have the perspective to stand back and look at wrestling as a mark would look at wrestling, which is how you make your money, since wrestling is a con.


----------



## Beatles123

The Wood said:


> Yes, it's bait if someone has a different opinion to you.
> 
> Soul Rex doesn't _need_ to clarify more. Even without context, they're allowed to just not like wrestlers. But the thing is, Rex actually provided context by saying he agrees with Cornette about those things. So you can extrapolate that as meaning that Soul Rex agrees with the criticisms Cornette lobbies at Omega and the Bucks. I know they don't make sense to you, but they do to plenty of people.
> 
> 
> 
> The thing is...how does that make any sense? Why would someone get in the ring and jokingly try and punch Tyson in a Heavyweight Title match? None of it makes any sense. Seriously, if you watch wrestling with kids, they ask these fucking questions. They see through this and think it's "stupid." There is no reason for a guy to enter a Battle Royal for a World Title shot (unofficially too -- or was it?) and pretend to fight. TV isn't a great analogue, but this would be like someone trying to give a wet willy to The Mountain in Game of Thrones.
> 
> Well, guys that have years of experience in the business do know what they can do. God knows Cornette has been proven right countless times before. The guy basically predicted the state WWE would be in twenty years ago. People don't have to like him to admit that. And pundits are also experts in what they like, what their friends who don't like wrestling hate about it, and can also read and relate information from wiser sources. I mean, wrestling isn't new. A lot of people know why the Chikara shit isn't going to fly with people, and they can back up this reasoning with examples. You really have to limit your scope to suggest there are no precedents for what does and doesn't work.
> 
> Your measuring of their appeal is skewered. I think we've gone through this, but the 98k buy thing was worldwide and across all mediums. According to Meltzer, it two thirds of that was North American, which means about 66,000 buys between traditional PPV, B/R Live and whatever it was on in Canada. It did not beat TNA's best offering on domestic PPV, which was something like 65,000 through one platform (and yes, that will matter to the platforms who get paid based on how many people use them). You're also comparing their worldwide buys to a number UFC generated exclusively through the ESPN+ app. How is that fair? The Google trends just mean people searched for it. It obviously didn't mean that people bought it, nor does it mean that people liked what they did see.
> 
> Bret Hart once said that Melina was one of the best workers in wrestling. Jericho saw great things in Ryback and thinks Cyrus is a genius. I don't even know what Austin is into these days. Sometimes the best players don't make the best coaches. Cornette might not be as big a star as Austin or Bret were, but the dude has made a ton of money in wrestling and understands it as well as any of those guys. There's just a recency bias when it comes to guys like Jericho and Austin because you saw them wrestle more recently. Cornette isn't playing a character -- I think that just makes his criticisms easier for people to deflect. Omega might not give a shit about it, and that's his prerogative, but listening to someone with a wealth of experience like Cornette would only make him better. You can choose what you want to take on board and what you don't. But to say that Jericho, Austin and Bret (all three of whom I imagine would have a tremendous amount of respect for Cornette -- Montreal Screwjob to the side) immediately discount Cornette is as subjective as the criticisms you dismiss.
> 
> 
> 
> The answer to this is simple: They live in a bubble. These people already love wrestling and are obsessed with it. They do and see so much of it that they think subversion of the form is clever and innovative. They don't really have the perspective to stand back and look at wrestling as a mark would look at wrestling, which is how you make your money, since wrestling is a con.


Wrestling no longer is a carny sport Wood. Come on. You're better than this. And to give off such an air of superiority as if we're all just unwoken sheep. What are ya doin? fpalm


----------



## patpat

Chan Hung said:


> The problem with the Battle Royal is you can't have a battle royal with everybody being really good at this stage because I don't think aew has that amount of Talent per se


 Moxley addressed that in an interview today, said the indies got absolutely whipped. And think hhh's way of recruiting isnt different than Vince killing the territories


----------



## The Wood

Beatles123 said:


> Wrestling no longer is a carny sport Wood. Come on. You're better than this. And to give off such an air of superiority as if we're all just unwoken sheep. What are ya doin? fpalm


This mentality is why it is so niche these days and other avenues have completely overtaken it, and you have dolts like Vince Russo saying "Wrestling needs to be different because it can't compete with real entertainment" or whatever. This ironically condescending attitude that looks down on wrestling being treated as a sincere work because everyone thinks they are too smart to be worked (yet look at politics, UFC, boxing, reality television, even some news outlets). People throw around the word "carny" in such a classist way. I don't like the term myself, but those "carnies" know how to make money out of people by making them want something they don't need. That's what wrestling is. That's what so much in life is. 

Wrestling might have distanced itself from being a con, but most people still see it that way, and it's not very good at doing it anymore. It now defeats its own purpose with its existence. Absolutely baffling.

I went to Sonny Kiss' fiance's Twitter to see what upset him about Cornette's comments. It's quite an interesting read. When people asked what was so homophobic about them, _no one_ had an answer. Someone just blocked someone and said that they were an asshole for asking or something. My intuition told me it was a genuine question and not some sort of "whataboutism." Someone else (this was on Cornette's side, not on Sonny Kiss') offered $500 to anyone who could find it, but I imagine that is going to go unclaimed like the Randi prize. 

This isn't PC gone mad or anything. That sort of shit pisses me off to no end. We need more awareness and understanding in this world. But this is really just a bunch of performers getting shitty because their performance was criticized, masking it with self-indignation and ad hominem attacks. Ironically, the people who accuse Cornette of going into something hating it are actually hating on him without actually engaging at all with what he said. It's quite rich, and it's soured me further on AEW, especially to see acts like Luchasaurus and The Young Bucks (who are EVPs for crying out loud) get in on it. I'm more sour on them today than yesterday after doing more research.


----------



## Beatles123

The Wood said:


> This mentality is why it is so niche these days and other avenues have completely overtaken it, and you have dolts like Vince Russo saying "Wrestling needs to be different because it can't compete with real entertainment" or whatever. This ironically condescending attitude that looks down on wrestling being treated as a sincere work because everyone thinks they are too smart to be worked (yet look at politics, UFC, boxing, reality television, even some news outlets). People throw around the word "carny" in such a classist way. I don't like the term myself, but those "carnies" know how to make money out of people by making them want something they don't need. That's what wrestling is. That's what so much in life is.
> 
> Wrestling might have distanced itself from being a con, but most people still see it that way, and it's not very good at doing it anymore. It now defeats its own purpose with its existence. Absolutely baffling.


No people don't see it that wau. thats why people can see right through it. The people have evolved.


----------



## Mox Girl

What did he say about Mox's debut? I see people in the thread say he praised him and the debut, but what did he actually say?


----------



## Beatles123

The Wood said:


> I went to Sonny Kiss' fiance's Twitter to see what upset him about Cornette's comments. It's quite an interesting read. When people asked what was so homophobic about them, _no one_ had an answer. Someone just blocked someone and said that they were an asshole for asking or something. My intuition told me it was a genuine question and not some sort of "whataboutism." Someone else (this was on Cornette's side, not on Sonny Kiss') offered $500 to anyone who could find it, but I imagine that is going to go unclaimed like the Randi prize.
> 
> This isn't PC gone mad or anything. That sort of shit pisses me off to no end. We need more awareness and understanding in this world. But this is really just a bunch of performers getting shitty because their performance was criticized, masking it with self-indignation and ad hominem attacks. Ironically, the people who accuse Cornette of going into something hating it are actually hating on him without actually engaging at all with what he said. It's quite rich, and it's soured me further on AEW, especially to see acts like Luchasaurus and The Young Bucks (who are EVPs for crying out loud) get in on it. I'm more sour on them today than yesterday after doing more research.


I'll write more on this later but you are REALLY missing the point.


----------



## The Wood

Mox Girl said:


> What did he say about Mox's debut? I see people in the thread say he praised him and the debut, but what did he actually say?


He contrasted Mox at DoN with his WWE presentation, where he said that he looked like he was phoning it in. He said something like "Apparently he was, because he showed up here with some life" or something to that extent. He said that he still hasn't seen much of his actual match work, but gave his DoN appearance a good review. 



Beatles123 said:


> I'll write more on this later but you are REALLY missing the point.


I look forward to it, because everywhere people ask they seem to get ignored or waved off, and no one can seem to cite any actual homophobia. 



Beatles123 said:


> No people don't see it that wau. thats why people can see right through it. The people have evolved.


The people haven't evolved at all. That's something wrestling fans tell themselves to justify things like invisible grenades and dick flips. It's echoes within the bubble. People still get worked all the time -- in sports, in entertainment, in politics. Wrestling is the only thing scared to do it anymore. There are wrestling fans that still believe Brock Lesnar is a bad worker. It is so easy to convince people of something. People can see right through it because it's admitted its phony and doesn't try to be engaging on that level anymore. The most effective thing at DoN was the Cody/Dustin match, because that emotion was _real_.


----------



## Ger

In my opinion(!) the OP started from the wrong side of Jim`s comments. All review with Cornette I remember it was always the same: when the beginning doesn`t work for him, he won`t be that nice.


----------



## CRCC

I like Cornette. I don't agree with him on everything but I like him, I understand where he's coming from on most of his comments and I respect his opinion.

Having said that, I disagree 100% with him regarding Omega. The man is amazing. Comparing hom to Mcgee is just letting your personal feelings get in the way of objective thinking.

He's right about the BR. It was not the right place to put so much comedy in.


----------



## Adam Cool

I don't know why people are calling Cornette a "progressive who would never say something homophobic" all because he hates Trump, when he actively Mocked Wade Keller when he came out because he hated him for "screwing over Bill Watts"


----------



## DesoloutionRow

This man campaigned heavily to have Stephanie McMahon in a position of immense power within WWE. His opinions are forever invalid.


----------



## Beatles123

The Wood said:


> He contrasted Mox at DoN with his WWE presentation, where he said that he looked like he was phoning it in. He said something like "Apparently he was, because he showed up here with some life" or something to that extent. He said that he still hasn't seen much of his actual match work, but gave his DoN appearance a good review.
> 
> 
> 
> I look forward to it, because everywhere people ask they seem to get ignored or waved off, and no one can seem to cite any actual homophobia.
> 
> 
> 
> The people haven't evolved at all. That's something wrestling fans tell themselves to justify things like invisible grenades and dick flips. It's echoes within the bubble. People still get worked all the time -- in sports, in entertainment, in politics. Wrestling is the only thing scared to do it anymore. There are wrestling fans that still believe Brock Lesnar is a bad worker. It is so easy to convince people of something. People can see right through it because it's admitted its phony and doesn't try to be engaging on that level anymore. The most effective thing at DoN was the Cody/Dustin match, because that emotion was _real_.


Once again wood, I think you're taking what I said and using it to argue the wrong points. Maybe I haven't been clear enough. I'll try to do so now.

This bubble that the old fossels of wrestling sit in, where people like the Bucks are "Killing the biz" is backwards. Not only because of the falseness of that statement in itself, but the various notions associated with it. Things like "The fans don't know what they want" and that every fan who has the audacity to use a fucking computer and become educated in the difference between good booking and bad booking--HEAVEN FORBID--is some kind of smelly neckbeard is atrocious. It's like living in a village full of mountain hicks where everyone criticizes you for learning to read. Al Snow is the worst offender of this. He actually suggested that the reason we complain is because we read spoilers and that we should be more open minded. Uh. No, Al. We've only been trying to be open minded for fucking YEARS NOW and all you've fed us is shit on a stick. Don't yell at us for being able to realize it was shit! Now, is that to say we should over-critique everything? No. However, when a company like WWE has now built up DECADES WORTH.....*DECADES WORTH* of arrogance and pride against its' own audience, almost GLEEFULLY trying to remind "Them marks" that they don't matter because "MUH MILLIONS WHO WATCH AT HHOOOOOOOOOME AND DON'T KNOW IT ISNT REEEEEEEEAL" are the ones that matter...thats where I draw the line. No. You don't GET to tell me that I don't deserve good TV the same way little timmy deserves good TV. Little Timmy might be able to have lower standards because he doesn't realize the hypocritical writing on display in front of him, but don't think I'm a pile of shit for knowing they can do BETTER THAN THAT! Besides, all little timmy's going to do is figure it out anyway. There are two types of wrestling fans: Those who are educated now, and those that will be later. You can't expect them to sit through segment #6474566865 of THE BIG DAWG needlessly making heels look like shit before they ask these questions. Which is why YOU'RE RIGHT. They DO ask these questions! I think you're just confused as to how much people can forgive. I don't think the CBR is the best example of turning people off (as far as the comedy.) 

I certainly don't think the Sonny Kiss thing which you are way off base on is any cause for you to "Sour" on AEW. That more than anything is really starting to make me angry if i'm honest. I don't blame you for being ignorant of Jim's homophobic words (As they appeared to most) but to bash The Bucks for coming out in support of Sonny against it is just...wow. That's a Yikes from me, dog. 

Yes. There WAS homophobia in Jim's statement whether intended or not. Referring to Sonny with improper terms in a passive-aggressive manner is a bad look. 

--Okay, WOAH! looking up his comments for clarity's sake, they're even worse than I thought! :Hutz



> "Then here comes Sonny Kiss who apparently got off his day job at the drag-show at the fu----- Tropicana. They're not explaining any of this. The transvestite or exotico as they would say at AAA."


Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear. fpalm

FIRST OF ALL, Sonny isn't even a "Transvestite". Sonny is closest to non-binary. This means that Sonny can be identified as both genders. "He" and "Her" at the same time. So the ignorance there is bad enough, but as you said, he didn't know, right? --Wrong, because even if he didn't know about him being Binary, the term "Transvestite" is considered a slur by those in the transgender community and this is pretty well known. Even "Transexual" is a frowned upon terminology. Unless Jim has his head that deep in the sand, he has no excuse for that. Just call people what they want to be. Why is this so hard? Further, let us talk about his imagery. "A drag show at the Tropicana" like he's disgusted at the very sight of him. He may not have been, but that was the delivery most gathered from it, especially because he's an old southern loud mouth. How else would you assume he meant it? Yes. To most, these are homophobic sounding comments in 2019. There's no way you can spin them as if they weren't unless you know how Jim is, which people from what you insist, do not. If I were Sonny I would feel absolutely attacked and demeaned. It is only natural, then, that The Bucks comment on it.

Even if you disagree it's homophobia, tough toenails. You just don't say shit like that. I have many transgender friends of varying degrees who wouldn't feel comfortable with Jim at all on this. None of it. From the verbiage to the imagery to the fact he mentioned it negatively at all. If Jim had more class about it, he could have said "I worry they didn't introduce Sonny properly to the audience so he doesn't make people confused." - It's still a backwards as hell statement, but it's better than "Who the fuck is this "Exotico"? That at least IMPLIES some measure of homophobia and that's enough.

As a bisexual (used as what used to mean "Pansexual") myself, learning about LGBTQ concerns has enlightened me a lot to the struggles they go through. I'm still learning about it myself and I'm not perfect, but I promise you having experienced this first hand in the past: This is a battle Cornette does not want, nor can he win it. Offering money in an attempt to prove his innocence doesn't paint a good look for him either and even offers more evidence to the contrary in the eyes of most. In fact...I'll take that $500 now, Team Cornette, because I think you just did the work for me. :troll

If he cared as much as he should, he'd walk back RIGHT NOW and simply say "I'm sorry" - not "Here's what I really meant" - "I'm sorry." He has no excuse but ignorance and that can only get you so far in this day and age.

I apologize. I didn't mean to make this my fight. I didn't want to say anything but the more I read into it the more I realize this is a bigger deal. I was content to let him spout antiquated wrestling views, but this is just classless and and best, he fucked up BAD. At worst....hoo boy. I.....no. :mj2

Everyone's gonna have their own opinion, but I find myself hurt by what he said due to my connections with some people I love very much. Honestly? Jim has to fix this and he won't have an easy time doing it, I assure you.


----------



## The Wood

Thanks for taking the time to reply. 



Beatles123 said:


> Once again wood, I think you're taking what I said and using it to argue the wrong points. Maybe I haven't been clear enough. I'll try to do so now.
> 
> This bubble that the old fossels of wrestling sit in, where people like the Bucks are "Killing the biz" is backwards. Not only because of the falseness of that statement in itself, but the various notions associated with it. Things like "The fans don't know what they want" and that every fan who has the audacity to use a fucking computer and become educated in the difference between good booking and bad booking--HEAVEN FORBID--is some kind of smelly neckbeard is atrocious. It's like living in a village full of mountain hicks where everyone criticizes you for learning to read. Al Snow is the worst offender of this. He actually suggested that the reason we complain is because we read spoilers and that we should be more open minded. Uh. No, Al. We've only been trying to be open minded for fucking YEARS NOW and all you've fed us is shit on a stick. Don't yell at us for being able to realize it was shit! Now, is that to say we should over-critique everything? No. However, when a company like WWE has now built up DECADES WORTH.....*DECADES WORTH* of arrogance and pride against its' own audience, almost GLEEFULLY trying to remind "Them marks" that they don't matter because "MUH MILLIONS WHO WATCH AT HHOOOOOOOOOME AND DON'T KNOW IT ISNT REEEEEEEEAL" are the ones that matter...thats where I draw the line. No. You don't GET to tell me that I don't deserve good TV the same way little timmy deserves good TV. Little Timmy might be able to have lower standards because he doesn't realize the hypocritical writing on display in front of him, but don't think I'm a pile of shit for knowing they can do BETTER THAN THAT! Besides, all little timmy's going to do is figure it out anyway. There are two types of wrestling fans: Those who are educated now, and those that will be later. You can't expect them to sit through segment #6474566865 of THE BIG DAWG needlessly making heels look like shit before they ask these questions. Which is why YOU'RE RIGHT. They DO ask these questions! I think you're just confused as to how much people can forgive. I don't think the CBR is the best example of turning people off (as far as the comedy.)


I disagree with the sentiment that you get to decide what the right and wrong points to argue are. I could easily say the same thing about yours. 

The bubble that the young guys sit in, where they talk about changing the business is backwards. Not only because of the falseness, but the notions associated with it. See how easy that is? 

I'm not sure where this neckbeard thing comes from, but, um, that's isn't Cornette. He openly says that most fans could book wrestling better than most "bookers" in power these days. You're conflating what Al Snow allegedly says with Cornette's positions for the sake of an argument. I like what I've seen from Snow, but I'm not up-to-date on him. I have a buddy quite new in wrestling that has worked with him and called him, by far, the most helpful person he's ever been in the ring with. That's anecdotal, but I'm not sure where this idea that Cornette and Snow hate young guys comes from -- especially given that they're two of the guys most heavily involved in training the next generation of guys (or at least have been). 

Your paragraph actually transforms into a Cornette-esque one. That's closer to the things he says about WWE disrespecting the audience and chasing them away, lol. I'm not saying that anyone believes WWE. Ew, no -- I'm saying they don't, and that's why they've got the big problems they do now. 



Beatles123 said:


> OI certainly don't think the Sonny Kiss thing which you are way off base on is any cause for you to "Sour" on AEW. That more than anything is really starting to make me angry if i'm honest. I don't blame you for being ignorant of Jim's homophobic words (As they appeared to most) but to bash The Bucks for coming out in support of Sonny against it is just...wow. That's a Yikes from me, dog.


My issue isn't with Kiss, it's with the scummy dog-piling from Judas Devlin and The Bucks. It strikes me as very similar as when Meltzer was clearly criticizing WWE's regressive positions towards women and half the WWE locker-room piled on him with tut-tuts just before taking a big Saudi Arabian paycheck. It's not hypocrisy writ-large like that, but perpetuating the idea that Cornette said something homophobic when he clearly didn't -- if that cost him business, it would be slander. Fuck that. Homophobia is a real thing and needs to be combated. It's not a tool for ignorant fucks to bury people they don't like. 



Beatles123 said:


> OYes. There WAS homophobia in Jim's statement whether intended or not. Referring to Sonny with improper terms in a passive-aggressive manner is a bad look.


No, no, no -- I'm not asking whether or not it was a bad look. I'm asking whether or not there was anything homophobic. You don't need to be a homosexual to be a "transvestite" (god I hate that word though). 



Beatles123 said:


> O--Okay, WOAH! looking up his comments for clarity's sake, they're even worse than I thought!


Wait...so you didn't listen to the comments Cornette made before responding? This is not meant as an attack, but this is why this is an issue for so many people (and some of whom are in the LGBT+ community and have come out and defended Cornette after listening to the podcast, mind). I know this is a personal subject for you, but you really should have familiarized yourself with the actuality of things before arguing against them. I mean, you don't have to look into them if you don't want to, but it's hard to be on-point about what someone did or didn't say if you don't know what they did or didn't say. 



Beatles123 said:


> *OFIRST OF ALL, Sonny isn't even a "Transvestite". Sonny is closest to non-binary.* This means that Sonny can be identified as both genders. "He" and "Her" at the same time. So the ignorance there is bad enough, but as you said, he didn't know, right? --Wrong, because even if he didn't know about him being Binary, the term "Transvestite" is considered a slur by those in the transgender community and this is pretty well known. Even "Transexual" is a frowned upon terminology. Unless Jim has his head that deep in the sand, he has no excuse for that. Just call people what they want to be. Why is this so hard? Further, let us talk about his imagery. "A drag show at the Tropicana" like he's disgusted at the very sight of him. He may not have been, but that was the delivery most gathered from it, especially because he's an old southern loud mouth. How else would you assume he meant it? Yes. To most, these are homophobic sounding comments in 2019. There's no way you can spin them as if they weren't unless you know how Jim is, which people from what you insist, do not. If I were Sonny I would feel absolutely attacked and demeaned. It is only natural, then, that The Bucks comment on it.


Well, that's not really the point, is it? As you pointed out I pointed out, Cornette didn't know. He wasn't calling him that thing to misrepresent him, because he literally had no clue how he identifies. The whole "calling people what they want to be called" would be an excellent point when it comes to misidentifying people, but the point here is that there is no identification, which was exactly the critique. He didn't misgender Nyla Rose for example. I'm not saying that this would exonerate him from any accusations of homophobia, but the idea that he was misidentifying someone is a definite reach. This had nothing to do with a real life individual -- it was a wrestling presentation from a gimmick who shoves his ass in people's faces because, as a wise man I know critiqued on another forum, because "lolgayness." There are some people struggling with the presentation of Kiss because they feel it's retrograde. It's probably just him, and that's cool, but when you're playing with those heuristics, people might think "exotico" when you're in a wrestling ring doing exotico things. 

As someone quite heavily involved with the LGBTQIA+ community myself (you'll just have to take my word for it), I've not heard that about the term "transvestite." I mean, I think my first thought in this discussion was that the term makes my skin crawl, and I personally wouldn't use it. As I also said, if I were a friend of Jim's, I'd suggest he doesn't use that word anymore. As a fan of his, the idea that he would use that word to hurt upsets me. That's why I'm quite involved here. It's also why I'm quite pissed off that there are misrepresentations of how it was used. Anyway, some are okay with using the word, to my knowledge. I know a few proud "transvestites." I can also understand why it is a loaded term many want to step away from, which is why I'd never use it as a default. "Transsexual" is one that is definitely gross, so I've not heard that "transvestite" is worse. I'll do my listening in regards to that. 

I'll say this: Corny should definitely be more careful with his lingo. There are ways of saying that Sonny Kiss comes off like shit without resorting to language that is loaded and going to make people feel bad (especially if they don't listen). We don't get to choose the impact of our words -- that's on the listener and it's part of communication. Listening to Cornette, especially the week before this review, it's painfully obvious that the guy has been learning the lingo and trying to immerse himself more. His rant strongly suggesting that people go out and vote in support of LGBTQIA+ rights was quite delicately worded, in my opinion.

But to your point about imagery: Um, what is Sonny Kiss going for? Isn't that his gimmick? If not, what is his gimmick supposed to be? If gimmick is too "carny" a word for you, then what is his TV impression supposed to be? Everyone in every form of television has one. What is the ass-shaking supposed to be? You say that Cornette was disgusted at the sight of him. I'm pretty sure it was at the sight of his wrestling. You catch that yourself, and then suggest that because he's from the south people have a right to assume it was homophobic? I'm not even talking in a generalization sense, because statements like "the south is full of bigotry" are fine with me, lol, but isn't assuming that the conservative-hating, atheistic, pro-women's rights, pro-LGBT+ rights commentator meant a thing kind of projecting a lot? You ask "how are people meant to take him?" Well, how were people meant to take Kiss? What point are you trying to make here? 

People weren't asking for "homophobic sounding" comments. They were asking for homophobic comments. 



Beatles123 said:


> OEven if you disagree it's homophobia, tough toenails. You just don't say shit like that. I have many transgender friends of varying degrees who wouldn't feel comfortable with Jim at all on this. None of it. From the verbiage to the imagery to the fact he mentioned it negatively at all. If Jim had more class about it, he could have said "I worry they didn't introduce Sonny properly to the audience so he doesn't make people confused." - It's still a backwards as hell statement, but it's better than "Who the fuck is this "Exotico"? That at least IMPLIES some measure of homophobia and that's enough.


I'll agree that he shouldn't have said it like that. At the very best, it's just not an effective way to critique that sort of gimmick in 2019. I have many transgender friends who love Cornette, and there are plenty in the community coming out publicly if you don't want to believe my story on face-value. I'd lose the verbiage, although it is not homophobic. The imagery was presented by Sonny Kiss and AEW. "Exotico" is a wrestling term for an exotic gimmick. Cornette didn't know Kiss was actually homosexual/non-binary, nor would be care. I guarantee it. He just cared about shitty wrestling being on his TV. 



Beatles123 said:


> OAs a bisexual (used as what used to mean "Pansexual") myself, learning about LGBTQ concerns has enlightened me a lot to the struggles they go through. I'm still learning about it myself and I'm not perfect, but I promise you having experienced this first hand in the past: This is a battle Cornette does not want, nor can he win it. Offering money in an attempt to prove his innocence doesn't paint a good look for him either and even offers more evidence to the contrary in the eyes of most. In fact...I'll take that $500 now, Team Cornette, because I think you just did the work for me. :troll


It's a tough road. It's not as complicated as people make out as an excuse to not try and be better, but it involves people's lives, and that's a minefield. I wish you best on your journey -- sincerely. I'm genuinely sorry that this has caused you emotional pain. No way to make sure that doesn't sound facetious on the internet, haha. And that's something that I do think Cornette owes it to his fans to address. I can understand his outrage at the smears and misrepresentation, because it's damaging to your pride when you a) didn't do those things as they are being painted (arguably), b) didn't intend to cause that, and c) have a guy who makes rape and pedophilia jokes go after your job, but if Cornette is smart (and he is), then he'll address those concerns people have with him before he tears Joey Ryan apart this Thursday. It's going to be an interesting podcast, that's for sure! 

I don't think Cornette does want to battle the community. Nor do I think he plans to. The $500 was just a fan asking anyone criticizing him to find anything actually homophobic, which they couldn't do, lol. It's not a challenge to people's feelings, just the dog-piling responses of people who didn't read and trust sources that aren't being entirely truthful on the matter. 



Beatles123 said:


> OIf he cared as much as he should, he'd walk back RIGHT NOW and simply say "I'm sorry" - not "Here's what I really meant" - "I'm sorry." He has no excuse but ignorance and that can only get you so far in this day and age.
> 
> I apologize. I didn't mean to make this my fight. I didn't want to say anything but the more I read into it the more I realize this is a bigger deal. I was content to let him spout antiquated wrestling views, but this is just classless and and best, he fucked up BAD. At worst....hoo boy. I.....no. :mj2
> 
> Everyone's gonna have their own opinion, but I find myself hurt by what he said due to my connections with some people I love very much. Honestly? Jim has to fix this and he won't have an easy time doing it, I assure you.


I don't think Cornette is saying "this is what I meant." I think he's saying "this is what I said." It's sad that you're hurt, which means the comments have had a negative effect, which he should (and hopefully will) take responsibility for. I'll be disappointed if he turns it into an anti-PC thing. I'm sure people getting offended over things they didn't even read or listen to will come up, but I'm hopeful he will take responsibility for people being hurt if they identify with that way of being and Cornette made them feel bad about it. I don't think he's going to give a fuck about Luchasaurus or The Young Bucks though, lol.


----------



## DOTL

Jeez. I wish people put on their big boy pants and just accept that people say mean stuff sometimes. 


This culture is getting tiresome.


----------



## deepelemblues

Jim Cornette is an asshole

He's a deeply unpleasant human being rage monster at the drop of a hat who covers that up by being amusing even when* he's being an asshole

*Most of the time 

Which is fine until he's an asshole in connection with something you don't think people should be an asshole in connection with

:draper2


----------



## FROSTY

I like Cornette but he clearly shows his bias here. He shits on close to everything including many guys look appearances, even says Jericho carries Omega but doesn't say shit about how dogshit Jericho looked. Even Corny's little buddy on these podcasts (his yes man basically) had to point out what shit Jericho looked like his body was disgusting and even a impaired Kenny had to carry him to a passable match lol. Cornette got a little peeved at his buddy there but it was the truth I guess he doesn't like admitting. Cornette has become a thing of the past like Vince & even Russo, what worked in their time no longer does today and they can't accept it. There is a reason Corny has been fired from every booking gig with every company he has had since like 1990, because his old time ideas suck, and can't even get a pop anymore with today's wrestling fan.


----------



## FROSTY

Greatsthegreats said:


> I myself don't fully understand why the commentator needs to wear a mask
> 
> Who's Bob Ross?
> 
> and maybe the young bucks can't draw MUCH on their own but neither could Kevin Nash but then again saying they never draw money is like saying that the NWO doesn't count for Nash or that the Bullet Club didn't count for the Bucks
> 
> or that it doesn't count that All In sold every seat in a 11,000 seat arena after The Bucks were advertised _or at the very least _before the full card was even announced


Why did Jesse Ventura dress like a Vegas show girl when he did WWE commentary? WWE commentators with names Gorilla, The King, The Brain, Lord, The Body and so on, did we ever get a explanation from them for why that was? AEW & Excalibur are not the first wrestling commentators to use a gimmick/character. As soon as we get a explanation for why Lord Alfred Hayes called himself lord, then Excalibur should follow suit.


----------



## Beatles123

The Wood said:


> Thanks for taking the time to reply.
> 
> 
> 
> I disagree with the sentiment that you get to decide what the right and wrong points to argue are. I could easily say the same thing about yours.
> 
> The bubble that the young guys sit in, where they talk about changing the business is backwards. Not only because of the falseness, but the notions associated with it. See how easy that is?
> 
> I'm not sure where this neckbeard thing comes from, but, um, that's isn't Cornette. He openly says that most fans could book wrestling better than most "bookers" in power these days. You're conflating what Al Snow allegedly says with Cornette's positions for the sake of an argument. I like what I've seen from Snow, but I'm not up-to-date on him. I have a buddy quite new in wrestling that has worked with him and called him, by far, the most helpful person he's ever been in the ring with. That's anecdotal, but I'm not sure where this idea that Cornette and Snow hate young guys comes from -- especially given that they're two of the guys most heavily involved in training the next generation of guys (or at least have been).
> 
> Your paragraph actually transforms into a Cornette-esque one. That's closer to the things he says about WWE disrespecting the audience and chasing them away, lol. I'm not saying that anyone believes WWE. Ew, no -- I'm saying they don't, and that's why they've got the big problems they do now.
> 
> 
> 
> My issue isn't with Kiss, it's with the scummy dog-piling from Judas Devlin and The Bucks. It strikes me as very similar as when Meltzer was clearly criticizing WWE's regressive positions towards women and half the WWE locker-room piled on him with tut-tuts just before taking a big Saudi Arabian paycheck. It's not hypocrisy writ-large like that, but perpetuating the idea that Cornette said something homophobic when he clearly didn't -- if that cost him business, it would be slander. Fuck that. Homophobia is a real thing and needs to be combated. It's not a tool for ignorant fucks to bury people they don't like.
> 
> 
> 
> No, no, no -- I'm not asking whether or not it was a bad look. I'm asking whether or not there was anything homophobic. You don't need to be a homosexual to be a "transvestite" (god I hate that word though).
> 
> 
> 
> Wait...so you didn't listen to the comments Cornette made before responding? This is not meant as an attack, but this is why this is an issue for so many people (and some of whom are in the LGBT+ community and have come out and defended Cornette after listening to the podcast, mind). I know this is a personal subject for you, but you really should have familiarized yourself with the actuality of things before arguing against them. I mean, you don't have to look into them if you don't want to, but it's hard to be on-point about what someone did or didn't say if you don't know what they did or didn't say.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, that's not really the point, is it? As you pointed out I pointed out, Cornette didn't know. He wasn't calling him that thing to misrepresent him, because he literally had no clue how he identifies. The whole "calling people what they want to be called" would be an excellent point when it comes to misidentifying people, but the point here is that there is no identification, which was exactly the critique. He didn't misgender Nyla Rose for example. I'm not saying that this would exonerate him from any accusations of homophobia, but the idea that he was misidentifying someone is a definite reach. This had nothing to do with a real life individual -- it was a wrestling presentation from a gimmick who shoves his ass in people's faces because, as a wise man I know critiqued on another forum, because "lolgayness." There are some people struggling with the presentation of Kiss because they feel it's retrograde. It's probably just him, and that's cool, but when you're playing with those heuristics, people might think "exotico" when you're in a wrestling ring doing exotico things.
> 
> As someone quite heavily involved with the LGBTQIA+ community myself (you'll just have to take my word for it), I've not heard that about the term "transvestite." I mean, I think my first thought in this discussion was that the term makes my skin crawl, and I personally wouldn't use it. As I also said, if I were a friend of Jim's, I'd suggest he doesn't use that word anymore. As a fan of his, the idea that he would use that word to hurt upsets me. That's why I'm quite involved here. It's also why I'm quite pissed off that there are misrepresentations of how it was used. Anyway, some are okay with using the word, to my knowledge. I know a few proud "transvestites." I can also understand why it is a loaded term many want to step away from, which is why I'd never use it as a default. "Transsexual" is one that is definitely gross, so I've not heard that "transvestite" is worse. I'll do my listening in regards to that.
> 
> I'll say this: Corny should definitely be more careful with his lingo. There are ways of saying that Sonny Kiss comes off like shit without resorting to language that is loaded and going to make people feel bad (especially if they don't listen). We don't get to choose the impact of our words -- that's on the listener and it's part of communication. Listening to Cornette, especially the week before this review, it's painfully obvious that the guy has been learning the lingo and trying to immerse himself more. His rant strongly suggesting that people go out and vote in support of LGBTQIA+ rights was quite delicately worded, in my opinion.
> 
> But to your point about imagery: Um, what is Sonny Kiss going for? Isn't that his gimmick? If not, what is his gimmick supposed to be? If gimmick is too "carny" a word for you, then what is his TV impression supposed to be? Everyone in every form of television has one. What is the ass-shaking supposed to be? You say that Cornette was disgusted at the sight of him. I'm pretty sure it was at the sight of his wrestling. You catch that yourself, and then suggest that because he's from the south people have a right to assume it was homophobic? I'm not even talking in a generalization sense, because statements like "the south is full of bigotry" are fine with me, lol, but isn't assuming that the conservative-hating, atheistic, pro-women's rights, pro-LGBT+ rights commentator meant a thing kind of projecting a lot? You ask "how are people meant to take him?" Well, how were people meant to take Kiss? What point are you trying to make here?
> 
> People weren't asking for "homophobic sounding" comments. They were asking for homophobic comments.
> 
> 
> 
> I'll agree that he shouldn't have said it like that. At the very best, it's just not an effective way to critique that sort of gimmick in 2019. I have many transgender friends who love Cornette, and there are plenty in the community coming out publicly if you don't want to believe my story on face-value. I'd lose the verbiage, although it is not homophobic. The imagery was presented by Sonny Kiss and AEW. "Exotico" is a wrestling term for an exotic gimmick. Cornette didn't know Kiss was actually homosexual/non-binary, nor would be care. I guarantee it. He just cared about shitty wrestling being on his TV.
> 
> 
> 
> It's a tough road. It's not as complicated as people make out as an excuse to not try and be better, but it involves people's lives, and that's a minefield. I wish you best on your journey -- sincerely. I'm genuinely sorry that this has caused you emotional pain. No way to make sure that doesn't sound facetious on the internet, haha. And that's something that I do think Cornette owes it to his fans to address. I can understand his outrage at the smears and misrepresentation, because it's damaging to your pride when you a) didn't do those things as they are being painted (arguably), b) didn't intend to cause that, and c) have a guy who makes rape and pedophilia jokes go after your job, but if Cornette is smart (and he is), then he'll address those concerns people have with him before he tears Joey Ryan apart this Thursday. It's going to be an interesting podcast, that's for sure!
> 
> I don't think Cornette does want to battle the community. Nor do I think he plans to. The $500 was just a fan asking anyone criticizing him to find anything actually homophobic, which they couldn't do, lol. It's not a challenge to people's feelings, just the dog-piling responses of people who didn't read and trust sources that aren't being entirely truthful on the matter.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think Cornette is saying "this is what I meant." I think he's saying "this is what I said." It's sad that you're hurt, which means the comments have had a negative effect, which he should (and hopefully will) take responsibility for. I'll be disappointed if he turns it into an anti-PC thing. I'm sure people getting offended over things they didn't even read or listen to will come up, but I'm hopeful he will take responsibility for people being hurt if they identify with that way of being and Cornette made them feel bad about it. I don't think he's going to give a fuck about Luchasaurus or The Young Bucks though, lol.


Look at it this way, Wood: I didnt listen to his actual comments because I didn't care enough to be upset by them initially. I wanted him to have his opinion and leave it. However for me? The truth was worse. Im sorry. If I was offended, I know others are as well. Whether he's a fan of Kiss' ring work or not is irrelevant. There were a million better ways to say what he said and the fact he didn't realize this is dumb, dumb, dumb. In fact, I can only conclude he must have some measure of disgusting mindset if he didn't even THINK he'd get in trouble for this.

For the record? Im GLAD Sonny was presented as he was. A great wrestler with charisma. I'd rather that then "DID YOU KNOW HES GAAAAAAAAAAAAY?! PRAISE THE SUN!" as WWE would have.

He made his bed. Now he's laying in it.

Fuck Al snow, though. :fuck


----------



## Arktik

Ramming someone's face into your ass, such an enlightening take on the LGBT community...


----------



## Beatles123

Arktik said:


> Ramming someone's face into your ass, such an enlightening take on the LGBT community...


It's not a "Take"! fpalm

Tell me I didn't used to be this in the dark....holy Christ.


----------



## Darkest Lariat

I've seen what Jim thinks is good wrestling. Smokey Mountain Wrestling is damn near unwatchable. His opinions don't carry weight with me.


----------



## The_It_Factor

My, how opinions have changed in just a few short years


----------



## Beatles123

The_It_Factor said:


> My, how opinions have changed in just a few short years


E-VOLUTION IS A MYST-ER-Y :trips2


----------



## deepelemblues

Just finished listening to the podcast

Same criticisms Corny has made about "outlaw" wrestling and wrestlers for years

Same criticisms Corny has made about The Young Bucks for years

Same criticisms Corny has made of Omega for years 

Etc.

WHICH

TO A CERTAIN DEGREE

Are valid

But as usual he whips himself up and goes into argumentum ad absurdum territory, because everything that isn't his nostalgia-tinged idealized late-70s to mid-80s fantasy wrestling is so bad in his mind that he hops on the hyperbole train and never gets off


----------



## FROSTY

Beatles123 said:


> Once again wood, I think you're taking what I said and using it to argue the wrong points. Maybe I haven't been clear enough. I'll try to do so now.
> 
> This bubble that the old fossels of wrestling sit in, where people like the Bucks are "Killing the biz" is backwards. Not only because of the falseness of that statement in itself, but the various notions associated with it. Things like "The fans don't know what they want" and that every fan who has the audacity to use a fucking computer and become educated in the difference between good booking and bad booking--HEAVEN FORBID--is some kind of smelly neckbeard is atrocious. It's like living in a village full of mountain hicks where everyone criticizes you for learning to read. Al Snow is the worst offender of this. He actually suggested that the reason we complain is because we read spoilers and that we should be more open minded. Uh. No, Al. We've only been trying to be open minded for fucking YEARS NOW and all you've fed us is shit on a stick. Don't yell at us for being able to realize it was shit! Now, is that to say we should over-critique everything? No. However, when a company like WWE has now built up DECADES WORTH.....*DECADES WORTH* of arrogance and pride against its' own audience, almost GLEEFULLY trying to remind "Them marks" that they don't matter because "MUH MILLIONS WHO WATCH AT HHOOOOOOOOOME AND DON'T KNOW IT ISNT REEEEEEEEAL" are the ones that matter...thats where I draw the line. No. You don't GET to tell me that I don't deserve good TV the same way little timmy deserves good TV. Little Timmy might be able to have lower standards because he doesn't realize the hypocritical writing on display in front of him, but don't think I'm a pile of shit for knowing they can do BETTER THAN THAT! Besides, all little timmy's going to do is figure it out anyway. There are two types of wrestling fans: Those who are educated now, and those that will be later. You can't expect them to sit through segment #6474566865 of THE BIG DAWG needlessly making heels look like shit before they ask these questions. Which is why YOU'RE RIGHT. They DO ask these questions! I think you're just confused as to how much people can forgive. I don't think the CBR is the best example of turning people off (as far as the comedy.)
> 
> I certainly don't think the Sonny Kiss thing which you are way off base on is any cause for you to "Sour" on AEW. That more than anything is really starting to make me angry if i'm honest. I don't blame you for being ignorant of Jim's homophobic words (As they appeared to most) but to bash The Bucks for coming out in support of Sonny against it is just...wow. That's a Yikes from me, dog.
> 
> Yes. There WAS homophobia in Jim's statement whether intended or not. Referring to Sonny with improper terms in a passive-aggressive manner is a bad look.
> 
> --Okay, WOAH! looking up his comments for clarity's sake, they're even worse than I thought! :Hutz
> 
> 
> 
> Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear. fpalm
> 
> FIRST OF ALL, Sonny isn't even a "Transvestite". Sonny is closest to non-binary. This means that Sonny can be identified as both genders. "He" and "Her" at the same time. So the ignorance there is bad enough, but as you said, he didn't know, right? --Wrong, because even if he didn't know about him being Binary, the term "Transvestite" is considered a slur by those in the transgender community and this is pretty well known. Even "Transexual" is a frowned upon terminology. Unless Jim has his head that deep in the sand, he has no excuse for that. Just call people what they want to be. Why is this so hard? Further, let us talk about his imagery. "A drag show at the Tropicana" like he's disgusted at the very sight of him. He may not have been, but that was the delivery most gathered from it, especially because he's an old southern loud mouth. How else would you assume he meant it? Yes. To most, these are homophobic sounding comments in 2019. There's no way you can spin them as if they weren't unless you know how Jim is, which people from what you insist, do not. If I were Sonny I would feel absolutely attacked and demeaned. It is only natural, then, that The Bucks comment on it.
> 
> Even if you disagree it's homophobia, tough toenails. You just don't say shit like that. I have many transgender friends of varying degrees who wouldn't feel comfortable with Jim at all on this. None of it. From the verbiage to the imagery to the fact he mentioned it negatively at all. If Jim had more class about it, he could have said "I worry they didn't introduce Sonny properly to the audience so he doesn't make people confused." - It's still a backwards as hell statement, but it's better than "Who the fuck is this "Exotico"? That at least IMPLIES some measure of homophobia and that's enough.
> 
> As a bisexual (used as what used to mean "Pansexual") myself, learning about LGBTQ concerns has enlightened me a lot to the struggles they go through. I'm still learning about it myself and I'm not perfect, but I promise you having experienced this first hand in the past: This is a battle Cornette does not want, nor can he win it. Offering money in an attempt to prove his innocence doesn't paint a good look for him either and even offers more evidence to the contrary in the eyes of most. In fact...I'll take that $500 now, Team Cornette, because I think you just did the work for me. :troll
> 
> If he cared as much as he should, he'd walk back RIGHT NOW and simply say "I'm sorry" - not "Here's what I really meant" - "I'm sorry." He has no excuse but ignorance and that can only get you so far in this day and age.
> 
> I apologize. I didn't mean to make this my fight. I didn't want to say anything but the more I read into it the more I realize this is a bigger deal. I was content to let him spout antiquated wrestling views, but this is just classless and and best, he fucked up BAD. At worst....hoo boy. I.....no. :mj2
> 
> Everyone's gonna have their own opinion, but I find myself hurt by what he said due to my connections with some people I love very much. Honestly? Jim has to fix this and he won't have an easy time doing it, I assure you.


Did the Bucks respond to what he said about Sonny Kiss?


----------



## Beatles123

SWITCHBLADE SHOOK said:


> Did the Bucks respond to what he said about Sonny Kiss?


They responded to Luchasaurus, saying "Its okay. Dinosaurs like (Cornette) are going extinct to make room for real dinosaurs like you."

BASED.


----------



## FROSTY

Beatles123 said:


> They responded to Luchasaurus, saying "Its okay. Dinosaurs like (Cornette) are going extinct to make room for real dinosaurs like you."
> 
> BASED.


I can't believe how many defenders Cornette has on Twitter, and I know for a fact at least 3 of them are only defending his remarks because they are loyal WWE stans who will defend anything as long as it has to do with shitting on AEW. I know this because we are twitter acquaintances that follow each other, but they have taken a solid stance against AEW wanting them to fail. One of the most vocal defenders is usually very cool and we have good conversations but she's being very combative sticking up for what Cornette said even to Sonny's fiance who said he was always a big fan of Jim but that's over. She had some ridiculous responses to his tweet, wrestling fans are fucking nuts lmao.


----------



## The Wood

SWITCHBLADE SHOOK said:


> Greatsthegreats said:
> 
> 
> 
> I myself don't fully understand why the commentator needs to wear a mask
> 
> Who's Bob Ross?
> 
> and maybe the young bucks can't draw MUCH on their own but neither could Kevin Nash but then again saying they never draw money is like saying that the NWO doesn't count for Nash or that the Bullet Club didn't count for the Bucks
> 
> or that it doesn't count that All In sold every seat in a 11,000 seat arena after The Bucks were advertised _or at the very least _before the full card was even announced
> 
> 
> 
> Why did Jesse Ventura dress like a Vegas show girl when he did WWE commentary? WWE commentators with names Gorilla, The King, The Brain, Lord, The Body and so on, did we ever get a explanation from them for why that was? AEW & Excalibur are not the first wrestling commentators to use a gimmick/character. As soon as we get a explanation for why Lord Alfred Hayes called himself lord, then Excalibur should follow suit.
Click to expand...

Um, all those had a story behind them, yo. 



Arktik said:


> Ramming someone's face into your ass, such an enlightening take on the LGBT community...


Yeah, it’s a bit regressive itself. Shit wrestling to boot. 



Darkest Lariat said:


> I've seen what Jim thinks is good wrestling. Smokey Mountain Wrestling is damn near unwatchable. His opinions don't carry weight with me.


Smoky Mountain is fucking amazing. Holds up better than ECW.


----------



## Beatles123

The Wood said:


> Um, all those had a story behind them, yo.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, it’s a bit regressive itself. Shit wrestling to boot.
> 
> 
> 
> Smoky Mountain is fucking amazing. Holds up better than ECW.


I don't even know you anymore :mj2


----------



## FROSTY

The Wood said:


> Um, all those had a story behind them, yo.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, it’s a bit regressive itself. Shit wrestling to boot.
> 
> 
> 
> Smoky Mountain is fucking amazing. Holds up better than ECW.


They did not come on TV every week and explain why Ventura looked the way he did or have a gimmick name, bullshit.


----------



## FROSTY

First ever show and apparently Cornette and those in agreement with him that spent 50 bucks on this ppv want to use a good hour of their 3 hour block of time to explain every character, commentator, wrestler etc why they look the way they do.


----------



## Hephaesteus

SWITCHBLADE SHOOK said:


> They did not come on TV every week and explain why Ventura looked the way he did or have a gimmick name, bullshit.


Don't have to be every week but at least it should be explained the first time. 


But yes if you know this is likely people's first exposure to your comment don't have have of your 20 man battle royal for your main title be composed of silly gimmicks


----------



## Beatles123

Hephaesteus said:


> Don't have to be every week but at least it should be explained the first time.
> 
> 
> But yes if you know this is likely people's first exposure to your comment don't have have of your 20 man battle royal for your main title be composed of silly gimmicks


Oh wah. Id rather that than any comedy skit WWE has done.


----------



## Hephaesteus

Beatles123 said:


> Oh wah. Id rather that than any comedy skit WWE has done.


Has WWE ever had a royal rumble where half of their performers were comedy skit guys? One or two comedy guys is one thing but don't go overboard with it.


----------



## Greatsthegreats

SWITCHBLADE SHOOK said:


> As soon as we get a explanation for why Lord Alfred Hayes called himself lord, then Excalibur should follow suit.


isn't that like saying we shouldn't know who assassinated JFK before the killer of Julius Caesar is revealed?


----------



## Daggdag

deadcool said:


> There is a lesson to be learned here.
> 
> AEW should stay away from the old timers of wrestling; Cornette, Prichard, Bischoff, and especially Vince Russo.


Bischoff wouldn't be bad if he was strictly tv production with no hand in creative. He is one of the best tv producers in wrestling history, and really knows how to work the production staff.


----------



## FROSTY

Greatsthegreats said:


> isn't that like saying we shouldn't know who assassinated JFK before the killer of Julius Caesar is revealed?


No it's like saying the whole thing is stupid and just something to complain about for people looking for shit to bitch about. Vampiro never went on Lucha Underground and said "this is why my name is Vampiro." with a explanation.


----------



## FROSTY

Hephaesteus said:


> Don't have to be every week but at least it should be explained the first time.
> 
> 
> But yes if you know this is likely people's first exposure to your comment don't have have of your 20 man battle royal for your main title be composed of silly gimmicks


For the thousandth time, the BR was not suppose to be for a chance to fight for the title. It was suppose to be a gimmick BR, but Pac dropped out very last minute and they had to scramble/improvise. With no time to get Page another big opponent being this happened like the week of the show they added him to the BR and said the winner gets first crack at the title. But haters and or folks that went into this looking for things to nitpick latch on. They made the best of a bad situation, it was suppose to be Pac vs Hangman Page winner fights Omega vs Jericho winner for the AEW Championship. They weren't going to and didn't have the time to re-work the whole BR to not be comedy, they did all the comedy shit first, got it out of the way, then had serious Page come in clean house and win. Yet hater Cornette and his fans want to act like this was the plan all along lol.


----------



## patpat

Wait why do you even want to know why he wears a mask? I know several non wrestling fans/fan that stopped watching who I suggested the show to, none of them seemed fucking bothered by the fact that a commentator was wearing a mask. Again I think that's why wrestling fans are bragging on internet and dont understand the success of certain things, people dont give a fuck and introducing them to the guys in the battle royals would bore them to death because ( people are here to be entertsined).
Your first show is made to catch people's attention, introducing all the characters cant be done because they have no TV show yet. But they did explain a lot, they did explain why Dustin Thomas is there...on their YouTube series, because that's their only mean of communication. That's the most they could do, if you dient watch it then blame yourself "gnah gnah gnah I shouldn't be forced to watch a YouTube series before watching a ppv" 
Well when you pay ( 50 bucks , if you pay to watch ) the first thing you fucking do is to make sure you have all the informations about the show and you would find out about the YouTube series. If you didn't then its saz but that's how it is, they have no TV show so they used YouTube. 
And again the battle royals was in the pre shown, in the main show a lot was explained through commentary. 
But again you will have to accept that on the first show you wont be able to know everyone and what they are about , because no TV show simple. 
Some people complaining about "I didn't watch the joshi because muh didn't know them" is fucking dumb. That's the point , "hey guys we are going to introduce you to a new style of wrestling with atypical personalities, they are the joshi" wrestling fan 101" hurrrrrr I dont know them" well no shit?! 
I didn't either, the audience didn't either, but instead of shitting on their match because they arent able to judge pure talent , they paid attention and with time started to understand who is who. 
"Yuka" is an high highflyer, aja Kong is a legend and a powerhouse, Shida studied kendo stick in Japan and there was a fucking girl imitating freddy mercury and singing along the audience who reacted to it in a magnificent way. 
In their Match they made a connection with the audience using their charisma , in ring and pop culture references. The live audience reacted to it perfectly, a lot of people ended up loving them,and certain people were sitting there moaning that they didn't know them even tho that's the fucking point of the concept. 
:lol


----------



## The Wood

SWITCHBLADE SHOOK said:


> The Wood said:
> 
> 
> 
> Um, all those had a story behind them, yo.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, it’s a bit regressive itself. Shit wrestling to boot.
> 
> 
> 
> Smoky Mountain is fucking amazing. Holds up better than ECW.
> 
> 
> 
> They did not come on TV every week and explain why Ventura looked the way he did or have a gimmick name, bullshit.
Click to expand...

You don’t need to do it every week, ace. 



Beatles123 said:


> Hephaesteus said:
> 
> 
> 
> Don't have to be every week but at least it should be explained the first time.
> 
> 
> But yes if you know this is likely people's first exposure to your comment don't have have of your 20 man battle royal for your main title be composed of silly gimmicks
> 
> 
> 
> Oh wah. Id rather that than any comedy skit WWE has done.
Click to expand...

That’s a false dichotomy. It’s fine to accept neither. 



SWITCHBLADE SHOOK said:


> Greatsthegreats said:
> 
> 
> 
> isn't that like saying we shouldn't know who assassinated JFK before the killer of Julius Caesar is revealed?
> 
> 
> 
> No it's like saying the whole thing is stupid and just something to complain about for people looking for shit to bitch about. Vampiro never went on Lucha Underground and said "this is why my name is Vampiro." with a explanation.
Click to expand...

Why do people use LU as an example of something that worked? It crashed and burned. Besides, Vampiro had WCW exposure. This is a ridiculous point. 



SWITCHBLADE SHOOK said:


> Hephaesteus said:
> 
> 
> 
> Don't have to be every week but at least it should be explained the first time.
> 
> 
> But yes if you know this is likely people's first exposure to your comment don't have have of your 20 man battle royal for your main title be composed of silly gimmicks
> 
> 
> 
> For the thousandth time, the BR was not suppose to be for a chance to fight for the title. It was suppose to be a gimmick BR, but Pac dropped out very last minute and they had to scramble/improvise. With no time to get Page another big opponent being this happened like the week of the show they added him to the BR and said the winner gets first crack at the title. But haters and or folks that went into this looking for things to nitpick latch on. They made the best of a bad situation, it was suppose to be Pac vs Hangman Page winner fights Omega vs Jericho winner for the AEW Championship. They weren't going to and didn't have the time to re-work the whole BR to not be comedy, they did all the comedy shit first, got it out of the way, then had serious Page come in clean house and win. Yet hater Cornette and his fans want to act like this was the plan all along lol.
Click to expand...

It doesn’t matter what was planned, what matters is what happened. PAC didn’t cancel—they dropped him when they thought they had booked themselves into a corner. And none of that means you have to do a BR in the first place, let alone make it for a World Title shot.


----------



## Hephaesteus

SWITCHBLADE SHOOK said:


> For the thousandth time, the BR was not suppose to be for a chance to fight for the title. It was suppose to be a gimmick BR, but Pac dropped out very last minute and they had to scramble/improvise. With no time to get Page another big opponent being this happened like the week of the show they added him to the BR and said the winner gets first crack at the title. But haters and or folks that went into this looking for things to nitpick latch on. They made the best of a bad situation, it was suppose to be Pac vs Hangman Page winner fights Omega vs Jericho winner for the AEW Championship. They weren't going to and didn't have the time to re-work the whole BR to not be comedy, they did all the comedy shit first, got it out of the way, then had serious Page come in clean house and win. Yet hater Cornette and his fans want to act like this was the plan all along lol.


Make all the excuses you want, the fact is shit happens, you improvise. Don't have enough time to fill out your gimmick battle royal with real contenders, then make another no.1 contenders match, it's not that hard. 

And the ass to the face, orange Cassidy and the staple gun to the nuts all happened late in the match after Page was in the ring, so even that part about the comedy happening early and being done aint true.

This aint about being a cornette fan, an aew hater or a wwe fan. This is about a desire to see this organization that can rival wwe and hopefully force WWE's hand which would end up giving us not one, but two options to watch great mainstream wrestling. Shit like that battle royal or better yet their inability to improvise doesn't inspire much hope.


----------



## V-Trigger

The amount of people complaining about comedy gimmicks when NONE of them won the whole thing. Holy fucking christ.



Hephaesteus said:


> Shit like that battle royal or better yet their inability to improvise doesn't inspire much hope.


Vince McMahon improvise all the time and RAW it's a shitshow.


----------



## FROSTY

Hephaesteus said:


> Make all the excuses you want, the fact is shit happens, you improvise. Don't have enough time to fill out your gimmick battle royal with real contenders, then make another no.1 contenders match, it's not that hard.
> 
> And the ass to the face, orange Cassidy and the staple gun to the nuts all happened late in the match after Page was in the ring, so even that part about the comedy happening early and being done aint true.
> 
> This aint about being a cornette fan, an aew hater or a wwe fan. This is about a desire to see this organization that can rival wwe and hopefully force WWE's hand which would end up giving us not one, but two options to watch great mainstream wrestling. Shit like that battle royal or better yet their inability to improvise doesn't inspire much hope.


That's what they did, if you don't like it fuck off already.


----------



## Beatles123

This topic....this whole discussion.....

Fuck it all.

I am pissed.I cannot believe this is the way this discussion has gone. I expected better from some people. I have READ better from them. What the FUCK?!


----------



## WhyTooJay

SWITCHBLADE SHOOK said:


> For the thousandth time, the BR was not suppose to be for a chance to fight for the title. It was suppose to be a gimmick BR, but Pac dropped out very last minute and they had to scramble/improvise. With no time to get Page another big opponent being this happened like the week of the show they added him to the BR and said the winner gets first crack at the title. But haters and or folks that went into this looking for things to nitpick latch on. They made the best of a bad situation, it was suppose to be Pac vs Hangman Page winner fights Omega vs Jericho winner for the AEW Championship. They weren't going to and didn't have the time to re-work the whole BR to not be comedy, they did all the comedy shit first, got it out of the way, then had serious Page come in clean house and win. Yet hater Cornette and his fans want to act like this was the plan all along lol.


They didn't have time to rework the Battle Royal? The Pac match was cancelled like a week before the event. It takes them a week to put together a match? What?


----------



## Arktik

Beatles123 said:


> Oh wah. Id rather that than any comedy skit WWE has done.


Change nothing about the match except if it takes place in WWE and you would be shitting all over it. The battle royal (with a few exceptions such as MJF and Page) was embarrassing and if I were not so determined as a fan to see another major promotion succeed would have immediately turned me off to the whole company. I am not here to bash AEW, but damn they need to do better.



Beatles123 said:


> This topic....this whole discussion.....
> 
> Fuck it all.
> 
> I am pissed.I cannot believe this is the way this discussion has gone. I expected better from some people. I have READ better from them. What the FUCK?!


I would say the same to you. You have repeatedly mischaracterized what people have said in your effort to be upset at their posts instead of viewing it as constructive criticism from fans who want a better product. This is a tiny fraction of the amount that I criticize WWE every single week, but when it is aimed at AEW all of he indy marks cry and whine. The fact is Double of Nothing was the first opportunity to for AEW to make an impression on fans who may not be familiar with the overwhelming majority of the wrestlers in the promotion. The fact that the very first thing these fans see is basically jumping the shark does not give many of these people a good impression of the company. 

Even with that I found things to like about DON. I will just be really disappointed if by the time they start on TV they still insist on doing stupid indy shit to make the whole promotion look ridiculous. Thankfully with DON I would argue that the majority of the people were at least somewhat familiar with indy wrestling. That will very much not be the case once they are on TNT. You can get by with 100k ultra loyal cult followers for a PPV, but that same 100k would get the TV dropped in a heart beat if AEW can not attract people outside of that bubble.


----------



## Beatles123

Arktik said:


> Change nothing about the match except if it takes place in WWE and you would be shitting all over it. The battle royal (with a few exceptions such as MJF and Page) was embarrassing and if I were not so determined as a fan to see another major promotion succeed would have immediately turned me off to the whole company. I am not here to bash AEW, but damn they need to do better.
> 
> 
> 
> I would say the same to you. You have repeatedly mischaracterized what people have said in your effort to be upset at their posts instead of viewing it as constructive criticism from fans who want a better product. This is a tiny fraction of the amount that I criticize WWE every single week, but when it is aimed at AEW all of he indy marks cry and whine. The fact is Double of Nothing was the first opportunity to for AEW to make an impression on fans who may not be familiar with the overwhelming majority of the wrestlers in the promotion. The fact that the very first thing these fans see is basically jumping the shark does not give many of these people a good impression of the company.
> 
> Even with that I found things to like about DON. I will just be really disappointed if by the time they start on TV they still insist on doing stupid indy shit to make the whole promotion look ridiculous. Thankfully with DON I would argue that the majority of the people were at least somewhat familiar with indy wrestling. That will very much not be the case once they are on TNT. You can get by with 100k ultra loyal cult followers for a PPV, but that same 100k would get the TV dropped in a heart beat if AEW can not attract people outside of that bubble.


That's what you think this is about? Me just magically not holding AEW to the same standards as WWE because im an indy mark?!! fpalm 

Oh my god....After all the posts i've made. It's like no one gives a shit.

I'm in a cult?! Okay. I freaked out when pac cancled and am worried over them being on the right day of the week and want marvez out to the point of feeling stressed, but IM an indy mark?! :mj 

What the hell is wrong with you?!!


----------



## The Wood

V-Trigger said:


> The amount of people complaining about comedy gimmicks when NONE of them won the whole thing. Holy fucking christ.
> 
> Vince McMahon improvise all the time and RAW it's a shitshow.


It doesn't matter if one of them won the match. It looks ridiculous having a bunch of scrubs rubbing shoulders with your alleged stars. This is why Steve Austin said nope to Billy Gunn and Jeff Jarrett. This is the exact same reason that people hate WWE -- it is cheesy and doesn't make sense.

Raw sucks because kayfabe is dead, the talent can't promo, they all work the same match, nothing matters, you are told nothing matters and everything is in the voice of a guy who has lost control of how to promote. Sounds a lot like Hangman/PAC being scrubbed and the Battle Royal being a shit-show. Oh hey.


----------



## Greatsthegreats

I can't find the post that listed all the commentators with gimmicky names but my response to that is:

those barely count as characters since WE DON'T EVEN SEE THEM!


SWITCHBLADE SHOOK said:


> No it's like saying the whole thing is stupid and just something to complain about for people looking for shit to bitch about. Vampiro never went on Lucha Underground and said "this is why my name is Vampiro." with a explanation.


it still doesn't explain to the new viewers at home why OH WHY a commentator has to wear a mask



The Wood said:


> Why do people use LU as an example of something that worked? It crashed and burned. Besides, Vampiro had WCW exposure. This is a ridiculous point.


the show got 4 seasons, it wasn't a total bust



Daggdag said:


> Bischoff wouldn't be bad if he was strictly tv production with no hand in creative. He is one of the best tv producers in wrestling history, and really knows how to work the production staff.


he also knows how to take the money and run when everything falls apart

he' also lacks professional courtesy towards people on twitter


----------



## patpat

Beatles123 said:


> This topic....this whole discussion.....
> 
> Fuck it all.
> 
> I am pissed.I cannot believe this is the way this discussion has gone. I expected better from some people. I have READ better from them. What the FUCK?!


 told you bro, the good old day of the unique aew thread, we are gonna miss it


Also I love how internet people are talking about how the NEW VIEWER , the casual viewer, the mainstream audience is gonna dislike this or wont take them seriously because of that, when the said audience they are talking about loved it and scream everywhere it's the best show ever :lol 
People you just like me dont know shit about what could or could not work with a casual audience. Guess what I thought jungle boy wasnt ready and shouldn't be portrayed. You know what happened? People fucking love him because he is cute. So yeah I just shut up now about what others people are going to like.


----------



## Arktik

patpat said:


> Beatles123 said:
> 
> 
> 
> This topic....this whole discussion.....
> 
> Fuck it all.
> 
> I am pissed.I cannot believe this is the way this discussion has gone. I expected better from some people. I have READ better from them. What the FUCK?!
> 
> 
> 
> told you bro, the good old day of the unique aew thread, we are gonna miss it
> 
> 
> Also I love how internet people are talking about how the NEW VIEWER , the casual viewer, the mainstream audience is gonna dislike this or wont take them seriously because of that, when the said audience they are talking about loved it and scream everywhere it's the best show ever <img src="http://i.imgur.com/EGDmCdR.gif?1?6573" border="0" alt="" title="Laugh" class="inlineimg" />
> People you just like me dont know shit about what could or could not work with a casual audience. Guess what I thought jungle boy wasnt ready and shouldn't be portrayed. You know what happened? People fucking love him because he is cute. So yeah I just shut up now about what others people are going to like.
Click to expand...

DON had only about 100k buys so that is not getting the new or lapsed fans. We probably will not be able to tell that until they get on TV. I personally did not care for it and the half dozen or so people I talk to about wrestling off of the internet did not care for those portions of the show either. Granted, that is a tiny sample size. I am still optimistic about AEW, but there is definitely room for improvement.


----------



## Draykorinee

Cornette can never forgive man, Omega wrestled a child, something like that probably doesn't deserve forgiving tbh...But still Cornette needs to chill.


----------



## Death Rider

Do people moan this much when comedy jobbers enter the rumble? If you don't you are a hypocrite


----------



## deadcool

Daggdag said:


> Bischoff wouldn't be bad if he was strictly tv production with no hand in creative. He is one of the best tv producers in wrestling history, and really knows how to work the production staff.


Not in this era. He hasn't exactly been working in that field for a very long time, and things have changed a lot since he last did.


----------



## patpat

Draykorinee said:


> Cornette can never forgive man, Omega wrestled a child, something like that probably doesn't deserve forgiving tbh...But still Cornette needs to chill.


cornette is a fucking idiot, the girl in question was his student and he wrestled her to prove her parents how far she has come and how she progressed. seriously? he can't do that? like it's not even about forgiving anything, it's about being intellectually honest. you can't sit there and tell people with a straight face that Jericho carried omega, thats an insult to people's intelligence. this is beyond dumb.


----------



## patpat

Arktik said:


> DON had only about 100k buys so that is not getting the new or lapsed fans. We probably will not be able to tell that until they get on TV. I personally did not care for it and the half dozen or so people I talk to about wrestling off of the internet did not care for those portions of the show either. Granted, that is a tiny sample size. I am still optimistic about AEW, but there is definitely room for improvement.


if you don't understand what 100k buys on a ppv with 2/3 of them coming from the us ( where the ppv was 50 to 60), then it's worthless arguing. 
ps : the ppv got 200k google search on the night it aired , you don't do that if you didn't catch any people people's interest. like I don't intend to explain such basic concept to people 
let's agree to disagree


----------



## Hephaesteus

SWITCHBLADE SHOOK said:


> That's what they did, if you don't like it fuck off already.


:lmao Did I hurt your feelings? If you can't handle fair critiques on the show then stay in the fan threads and keep your head in the sand. I've never seen so many people defending such low quality shit in my life. 

Why should the viewers be expected to take it's belt seriously if Aew doesn't? It was a half-ass solution and even this show's supporters know it.


As Cornette and every other critic has said, this show obviously showed promise, hell there were good to great things about the show later in the night. But that Battle royal for a chance at the title, definitely was a misstep on their part and it deserves to be called out.


----------



## Death Rider

Hephaesteus said:


> SWITCHBLADE SHOOK said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's what they did, if you don't like it fuck off already.
> 
> 
> 
> <img src="http://www.wrestlingforum.com/images/smilies/roflmao.gif" border="0" alt="" title="ROFLMAO" class="inlineimg" /> Did I hurt your feelings? If you can't handle fair critiques on the show then stay in the fan threads and keep your head in the sand. I've never seen so many people defending such low quality shit in my life.
> 
> Why should the viewers be expected to take it's belt seriously if Aew doesn't? It was a half-ass solution and even this show's supporters know it.
> 
> 
> As Cornette and every other critic has said, this show obviously showed promise, hell there were good to great things about the show later in the night. But that Battle royal for a chance at the title, definitely was a misstep on their part and it deserves to be called out.
Click to expand...

Do you moan this much when comedy jobbers enter the rumble?


----------



## Hephaesteus

ONE STEP CLOSER TO KOFI MANIA said:


> Do you moan this much when comedy jobbers enter the rumble?


See my earlier statement in this thread when I said one or two would've been fine, but not half the frigging battle royal.


----------



## Death Rider

Hephaesteus said:


> ONE STEP CLOSER TO KOFI MANIA said:
> 
> 
> 
> Do you moan this much when comedy jobbers enter the rumble?
> 
> 
> 
> See my earlier statement in this thread when I said one or two would've been fine, but not half the frigging battle royal.
Click to expand...

Here is the thing though. In the Royal rumble there is numerous people who can't win but people don't moan this much about that. I feel like people are taking a few comedy spots too seriously.


----------



## Hephaesteus

ONE STEP CLOSER TO KOFI MANIA said:


> Here is the thing though. In the Royal rumble there is numerous people who can't win but people don't moan this much about that. I feel like people are taking a few comedy spots too seriously.


If 15 people, hell let's be fair if 10 people came through the royal rumble just for the sake of laughs or Kofi spots, people would be all wtf and get in the wwe's ass about it. Yes we realize that most years only have one or two true contenders to winning, but at least the other competitors in the match treat the match itself seriously and you could see why they think they have a chance.


----------



## Death Rider

Hephaesteus said:


> If 15 people, hell let's be fair if 10 people came through the royal rumble just for the sake of laughs or Kofi spots, people would be all wtf and get in the wwe's ass about it. Yes we realize that most years only have one or two true contenders to winning, but at least the other competitors in the match treat the match itself seriously and you could see why they think they have a chance.


I mean I can probs if I looked find some rumbles without about 10 who were pointless and comedy spots. Thought of one straight away. Thing is it is a battle royal and battle royal will always have comedy spots. Can you point out the 10 who were comedy btw? I can think of a few but not half of it was comedy


----------



## Hephaesteus

ONE STEP CLOSER TO KOFI MANIA said:


> I mean I can probs if I looked find some rumbles without about 10 who were pointless and comedy spots. Thought of one straight away. Thing is it is a battle royal and battle royal will always have comedy spots. Can you point out the 10 who were comedy btw? I can think of a few but not half of it was comedy


Shit with names, would have to go through it again to get the names but comedy/ gimmicky wrestlers with 0 chances of winning would include at first glance, Baby oil guy, guy with no legs, ass in the face guy, orange Cassidy, staple gun guy, smoking guy. Admittedly not as high as I initially thought, but other than baby oil dude those guys all made it pretty deep into that match.


----------



## Death Rider

OK staple gun guy is not a comedy or gimmick guy at all nor is the smoking guy. Staple gun guy is Jimmy Havoc who is one of the best British wrestlers around and far from a comedy guy :lmao. Nor is smoking guy Joey Janela.


----------



## Daggdag

Greatsthegreats said:


> I can't find the post that listed all the commentators with gimmicky names but my response to that is:
> 
> those barely count as characters since WE DON'T EVEN SEE THEM!
> 
> it still doesn't explain to the new viewers at home why OH WHY a commentator has to wear a mask
> 
> 
> 
> the show got 4 seasons, it wasn't a total bust
> 
> 
> 
> he also knows how to take the money and run when everything falls apart
> 
> he' also lacks professional courtesy towards people on twitter


How do you mean? When WCW went bankrupt Bischoff was right there trying to buy the company and bring it back. He left for a few years before that but he was with the company right until the end, and only failed because some jackass decided he wasn't going to try to secure a tv deal.


----------



## jroc72191

RubberbandGoat said:


> For instance, Dustin Thomas the amputee, he was there to show that a person without legs can be a wrestler too. It tugs at your heart strings a bit. *I’m sure he inspired people out there. Sonny Kiss, Nyla Rose, two transgendered wrestlers were on a PP*V. WWE likes to be the land of firsts. Well, Vince hasn’t had a transgendered wrestler in a women’s high profile match yet, AEW did. I look at it as them showing that multiple people from several backgrounds can make it, and that Vince is too narrow minded and pig headed to give those people a chance. Yes he’s had disabled people and others before but he treated them bad. It took til 2019 to get an African American representing his company as the guy and our last vision of Zach Gowen was Brock murdering him. Just sayin!


Sonny Kiss is no transgendered he still goes by HE lol


----------



## Greatsthegreats

Daggdag said:


> How do you mean? When WCW went bankrupt Bischoff was right there trying to buy the company and bring it back. He left for a few years before that but he was with the company right until the end, and only failed because some jackass decided he wasn't going to try to secure a tv deal.


I was referring to Impact Wrestling


----------



## Daggdag

deadcool said:


> Not in this era. He hasn't exactly been working in that field for a very long time, and things have changed a lot since he last did.


He hasn't ran a pro wrestling tv staff, but he runs a very successful tv studio. They make a few shows which have been picked up by well know networks.

His partner is Jason Hervey from the Wonder Years.


----------



## Reggie Dunlop

Let's not forget also that this battle royal was as much of an introduction to the roster as it was a championship qualifying event. As such, I have no problem with the characters involved who obviously had no chance of winning. 

If anybody has to take issue with anything in that match, it should be Page's incredible bit of 'luck' at snagging the joker and slot #21. That exceeded even WWE-level contrivance.


----------



## Daggdag

Reggie Dunlop said:


> Let's not forget also that this battle royal was as much of an introduction to the roster as it was a championship qualifying event. As such, I have no problem with the characters involved who obviously had no chance of winning.
> 
> If anybody has to take issue with anything in that match, it should be Page's incredible bit of 'luck' at snagging the joker and slot #21. That exceeded even WWE-level contrivance.


Major battle royals are always full of people who have no chance of winning. If you only put people who are top contenders into a battle royal you would only have like 5 guys. 90% of a battle royal are guys just there to fill the spots. Even WWE fills the spots in the royal rumble with returning legends and gimmicks like Kofi Kingston's annual elimination avvoidance stuff.

And this was never supposed to be a number one contender match. They PAC being an asshole ruined the original plan, and they didn't have time to find him another major name to face. And they also didn't have enough major, credible names to fill up a battle royal, so they had to make due with what they had, a handful of credible names among a bunch of gimmick wrestlers. MJF, and Shawn Spears, and maybe Brian Pillman Jr. were arguable the only ones they had available for the battle royal that could be seen as legit contenders even remotely. All the major stars were booked in other matches. So they did what they needed to do, and simply added Page to the match and changed the rules. 

They let all the gimmick wrestlers do their gimmicks, because that's really what they were there for.


----------



## jeffatron

Mixed bag as always from Corny. He had some good points, and some obvious biases. I didn't like the Battle Royal either, so I agree with him there. That being said Ido love how triggered he gets talking bout the Bux and Omega, and I'm convinced at this point it's a gimmick/troll he's just continuing with.

Also kayfabe is dead, get over it


----------



## deadcool

Daggdag said:


> He hasn't ran a pro wrestling tv staff, but he runs a very successful tv studio. They make a few shows which have been picked up by well know networks.
> 
> His partner is Jason Hervey from the Wonder Years.


He hasn't produced a show in over 5 years. Provide us some links showing his competence in the recent years (2017, 2018, 2019).


----------



## Beatles123

Hephaesteus said:


> Shit with names, would have to go through it again to get the names but comedy/ gimmicky wrestlers with 0 chances of winning would include at first glance, Baby oil guy, guy with no legs, ass in the face guy, orange Cassidy, staple gun guy, smoking guy. Admittedly not as high as I initially thought, but other than baby oil dude those guys all made it pretty deep into that match.


This infuriates me. All those guys are great wrestlers. You pissing on them doesn't invalidate that. Dustin Thomas (No Legs) is an inspiration and a star.


----------



## Chan Hung

Reggie Dunlop said:


> Let's not forget also that this battle royal was as much of an introduction to the roster as it was a championship qualifying event. As such, I have no problem with the characters involved who obviously had no chance of winning.
> 
> If anybody has to take issue with anything in that match, it should be Page's incredible bit of 'luck' at snagging the joker and slot #21. That exceeded even WWE-level contrivance.


Finally someone gets it lol. That's what this was mainly for to Introduce new talents and gimmicks for better or worse


----------



## Arktik

Chan Hung said:


> Finally someone gets it lol. That's what this was mainly for to Introduce new talents and gimmicks for better or worse


That is fine, but they did a poor job of introducing those talents. Many of these guys appeared as if they were not even trying to win the match. It is one thing to have a ridiculous character, it is another to just show up and appear as if you have no interest in winning the match that is for a shot at the top title in your company.


----------



## Beatles123

jroc72191 said:


> Sonny Kiss is no transgendered he still goes by HE lol


Edit: My bad, I misread you


----------



## The Wood

patpat said:


> Beatles123 said:
> 
> 
> 
> This topic....this whole discussion.....
> 
> Fuck it all.
> 
> I am pissed.I cannot believe this is the way this discussion has gone. I expected better from some people. I have READ better from them. What the FUCK?!
> 
> 
> 
> told you bro, the good old day of the unique aew thread, we are gonna miss it
> 
> 
> Also I love how internet people are talking about how the NEW VIEWER , the casual viewer, the mainstream audience is gonna dislike this or wont take them seriously because of that, when the said audience they are talking about loved it and scream everywhere it's the best show ever <img src="http://i.imgur.com/EGDmCdR.gif?1?6573" border="0" alt="" title="Laugh" class="inlineimg" />
> People you just like me dont know shit about what could or could not work with a casual audience. Guess what I thought jungle boy wasnt ready and shouldn't be portrayed. You know what happened? People fucking love him because he is cute. So yeah I just shut up now about what others people are going to like.
Click to expand...

Lol, this didn’t get people who aren’t fans talking. This was a show that attracted the niche. The people screaming it was the best show ever are the ones furious that Cornette would dare not give it a perfect score. These aren’t casuals, champ. 



Draykorinee said:


> Cornette can never forgive man, Omega wrestled a child, something like that probably doesn't deserve forgiving tbh...But still Cornette needs to chill.


Please, he’s broken bread with plenty of people he had beef with. This is just factually not true. 



ONE STEP CLOSER TO KOFI MANIA said:


> Hephaesteus said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SWITCHBLADE SHOOK said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's what they did, if you don't like it fuck off already.
> 
> 
> 
> <img src="http://www.wrestlingforum.com/images/smilies/roflmao.gif" border="0" alt="" title="ROFLMAO" class="inlineimg" /> Did I hurt your feelings? If you can't handle fair critiques on the show then stay in the fan threads and keep your head in the sand. I've never seen so many people defending such low quality shit in my life.
> 
> Why should the viewers be expected to take it's belt seriously if Aew doesn't? It was a half-ass solution and even this show's supporters know it.
> 
> 
> As Cornette and every other critic has said, this show obviously showed promise, hell there were good to great things about the show later in the night. But that Battle royal for a chance at the title, definitely was a misstep on their part and it deserves to be called out.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Do you moan this much when comedy jobbers enter the rumble?
Click to expand...

Yeah, that’s fucking dumb too. Why do you think this is a “gotcha” moment?


----------



## The Wood

Beatles123 said:


> Hephaesteus said:
> 
> 
> 
> Shit with names, would have to go through it again to get the names but comedy/ gimmicky wrestlers with 0 chances of winning would include at first glance, Baby oil guy, guy with no legs, ass in the face guy, orange Cassidy, staple gun guy, smoking guy. Admittedly not as high as I initially thought, but other than baby oil dude those guys all made it pretty deep into that match.
> 
> 
> 
> This infuriates me. All those guys are great wrestlers. You pissing on them doesn't invalidate that. Dustin Thomas (No Legs) is an inspiration and a star.
Click to expand...

Lol, no, they are not great wrestlers. That’s why a guy like MJF was able to outshine them all so easily. Thomas might be an inspiration, but he’s not a “star.” That is just hyperbolic.


----------



## Death Rider

The Wood said:


> Lol, this didn’t get people who aren’t fans talking. This was a show that attracted the niche. The people screaming it was the best show ever are the ones furious that Cornette would dare not give it a perfect score. These aren’t casuals, champ.
> 
> 
> 
> Please, he’s broken bread with plenty of people he had beef with. This is just factually not true.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, that’s fucking dumb too. Why do you think this is a “gotcha” moment?


Well I don't see the level of bitching when they do it. Also as proved it was nowhere near the amount of comedy spots as people were saying. 




The Wood said:


> Lol, no, they are not great wrestlers. That’s why a guy like MJF was able to outshine them all so easily. Thomas might be an inspiration, but he’s not a “star.” That is just hyperbolic.


Jimmy Havoc is a very good wrestler and talker. He is defiantly not a gimmick or comedy wrestler as a poster above put it. Acting like he was there for comedy when it was made clear he will have a decent role to play by attacking MJF on the main show and that Joey Janela won't when he is Moxley's fist opponent shows a lack of knowledge of certain wrestlers.


----------



## Beatles123

The Wood said:


> Lol, this didn’t get people who aren’t fans talking. This was a show that attracted the niche. The people screaming it was the best show ever are the ones furious that Cornette would dare not give it a perfect score. These aren’t casuals, champ.
> 
> 
> 
> Please, he’s broken bread with plenty of people he had beef with. This is just factually not true.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, that’s fucking dumb too. Why do you think this is a “gotcha” moment?





The Wood said:


> Lol, no, they are not great wrestlers. That’s why a guy like MJF was able to outshine them all so easily. Thomas might be an inspiration, but he’s not a “star.” That is just hyperbolic.


I am prepared to argue this with you if I have to, but I don't want to. just...stop undermining my point of view please. You sound like Vince.


----------



## The Raw Smackdown

Y'all really need to just agree to disagree at this point. Nobody is changing their stances on all of this.


----------



## Hephaesteus

ONE STEP CLOSER TO KOFI MANIA said:


> OK staple gun guy is not a comedy or gimmick guy at all nor is the smoking guy. Staple gun guy is Jimmy Havoc who is one of the best British wrestlers around and far from a comedy guy :lmao. Nor is smoking guy Joey Janela.


Fair enough, but this is my first introduction to these wrestlers, so when one brings out a staple gun to wrestle or when one is wrestling with a cigarette stapled to their head, can you see why it's hard to take said wrestlers seriously?

If I have to do research to know who an incoming wrestler is, you're not doing your job.


----------



## Hephaesteus

Beatles123 said:


> This infuriates me. All those guys are great wrestlers. You pissing on them doesn't invalidate that. Dustin Thomas (No Legs) is an inspiration and a star.


Spare me the fake outrage. It's inspiring to see what Thomas is doing, sure. Is he a star, probably not. And Im not pissing on anything, Im talking about my reaction to them in regards to what they did at the battle royal.


----------



## Beatles123

Hephaesteus said:


> Spare me the fake outrage. It's inspiring to see what Thomas is doing, sure. Is he a star, probably not. And Im not pissing on anything, Im talking about my reaction to them in regards to what they did at the battle royal.


Nothing fake about me, friend. Having your opinion is fine. Passing it off as fact is another. (Which admittedly we are all guilty of)


----------



## Daggdag

jeffatron said:


> Mixed bag as always from Corny. He had some good points, and some obvious biases. I didn't like the Battle Royal either, so I agree with him there. That being said Ido love how triggered he gets talking bout the Bux and Omega, and I'm convinced at this point it's a gimmick/troll he's just continuing with.
> 
> Also kayfabe is dead, get over it


Anyone who trusts Jim Cornette to know who can draw is an idiot. This is a guy who thought the Boogyman was gonna be a top star in WWE.


----------



## ManiacMichaelMyers

I love Jim Cornette but whether he likes it or not, AEW is the hottest alternative on the scene right now and it's not gonna stop because of this or that. People WANT AEW to succeed and will overlook a lot of its shortcomings...mainly because "FUCK how WWE sabotages it's talent". AEW is where talent can go to shine. So it doesn't matter if you got a guy wearing a mask on commentary or people you've never seen, the show is there for the fan... and not to spoon feed them shit.


----------



## Death Rider

Hephaesteus said:


> Fair enough, but this is my first introduction to these wrestlers, so when one brings out a staple gun to wrestle or when one is wrestling with a cigarette stapled to their head, can you see why it's hard to take said wrestlers seriously?
> 
> If I have to do research to know who an incoming wrestler is, you're not doing your job.


Not really. It is a no DQ match bringing out a weapon is smart. If you are going write wrestlers off as gimmick wrestlers for such silly thing makes me think you ain't giving people a chance


----------



## Draykorinee

The Wood said:


> Please, he’s broken bread with plenty of people he had beef with. This is just factually not true.


People still nitpick hyperbole on the internet?


----------



## Hephaesteus

ONE STEP CLOSER TO KOFI MANIA said:


> Not really. It is a no DQ match bringing out a weapon is smart. If you are going write wrestlers off as gimmick wrestlers for such silly thing makes me think you ain't giving people a chance


If I wasn't giving this a chance Id be complaining about the sloppiness of the match which I've largely ignored. Pulling out a staple gun is a silly ass gimmick that does nothing for the image of the wielder of such a "deadly weapon"


----------



## The Wood

ManiacMichaelMyers said:


> I love Jim Cornette but whether he likes it or not, AEW is the hottest alternative on the scene right now and it's not gonna stop because of this or that. People WANT AEW to succeed and will overlook a lot of its shortcomings...mainly because "FUCK how WWE sabotages it's talent". AEW is where talent can go to shine. So it doesn't matter if you got a guy wearing a mask on commentary or people you've never seen, the show is there for the fan... and not to spoon feed them shit.


Cornette wants AEW to succeed too. Where do people get this idea that he doesn't? This is the most frustrating thing about the Cornette criticisms -- they're just so off-the-mark when it comes to what he actually says and why he says it. 



ONE STEP CLOSER TO KOFI MANIA said:


> Not really. It is a no DQ match bringing out a weapon is smart. If you are going write wrestlers off as gimmick wrestlers for such silly thing makes me think you ain't giving people a chance


Someone should have brought out a gun and shot someone so they could toss them over. No DQ match. Maybe a No DQ Battle Royal schmozz shouldn't be for your allegedly prestigious World Championship if it is going to feature such ridiculous gimmicks. 



ONE STEP CLOSER TO KOFI MANIA said:


> Well I don't see the level of bitching when they do it. Also as proved it was nowhere near the amount of comedy spots as people were saying.
> 
> Jimmy Havoc is a very good wrestler and talker. He is defiantly not a gimmick or comedy wrestler as a poster above put it. Acting like he was there for comedy when it was made clear he will have a decent role to play by attacking MJF on the main show and that Joey Janela won't when he is Moxley's fist opponent shows a lack of knowledge of certain wrestlers.


Well, what you don't see seems to fit an encyclopedia. Your generalizations aren't convincing me of anything. Basically everyone in the Battle Royal was a comedy gimmick. Sunny Daze, Glacier, Orange Cassidy, Michael Nakazawa, Sonny Kiss, Jimmy Havoc and Joey Janela immediately spring to mind. That's a third of the advertised match right there. Two were older vets who weren't really big stars. Dustin Thomas never realistically stood a chance. Shawn Spears was enhancement talent in WWE. That takes us up to 11 people. That's half the match you're not supposed to take seriously. 

Havoc looks like the lead singer from the Eurythmics. I laugh when I see him. 



Daggdag said:


> Anyone who trusts Jim Cornette to know who can draw is an idiot. This is a guy who thought the Boogyman was gonna be a top star in WWE.


Lol, what? He _hated_ The Boogeyman gimmick. Is this seriously what the anti-logic side has come to?


----------



## Death Rider

Hephaesteus said:


> ONE STEP CLOSER TO KOFI MANIA said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not really. It is a no DQ match bringing out a weapon is smart. If you are going write wrestlers off as gimmick wrestlers for such silly thing makes me think you ain't giving people a chance
> 
> 
> 
> If I wasn't giving this a chance Id be complaining about the sloppiness of the match which I've largely ignored. Pulling out a staple gun is a silly ass gimmick that does nothing for the image of the wielder of such a "deadly weapon"
Click to expand...




The Wood said:


> ManiacMichaelMyers said:
> 
> 
> 
> I love Jim Cornette but whether he likes it or not, AEW is the hottest alternative on the scene right now and it's not gonna stop because of this or that. People WANT AEW to succeed and will overlook a lot of its shortcomings...mainly because "FUCK how WWE sabotages it's talent". AEW is where talent can go to shine. So it doesn't matter if you got a guy wearing a mask on commentary or people you've never seen, the show is there for the fan... and not to spoon feed them shit.
> 
> 
> 
> Cornette wants AEW to succeed too. Where do people get this idea that he doesn't? This is the most frustrating thing about the Cornette criticisms -- they're just so off-the-mark when it comes to what he actually says and why he says it.
> 
> 
> 
> ONE STEP CLOSER TO KOFI MANIA said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not really. It is a no DQ match bringing out a weapon is smart. If you are going write wrestlers off as gimmick wrestlers for such silly thing makes me think you ain't giving people a chance
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Someone should have brought out a gun and shot someone so they could toss them over. No DQ match. Maybe a No DQ Battle Royal schmozz shouldn't be for your allegedly prestigious World Championship if it is going to feature such ridiculous gimmicks.
> 
> 
> 
> ONE STEP CLOSER TO KOFI MANIA said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well I don't see the level of bitching when they do it. Also as proved it was nowhere near the amount of comedy spots as people were saying.
> 
> Jimmy Havoc is a very good wrestler and talker. He is defiantly not a gimmick or comedy wrestler as a poster above put it. Acting like he was there for comedy when it was made clear he will have a decent role to play by attacking MJF on the main show and that Joey Janela won't when he is Moxley's fist opponent shows a lack of knowledge of certain wrestlers.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Well, what you don't see seems to fit an encyclopedia. Your generalizations aren't convincing me of anything. Basically everyone in the Battle Royal was a comedy gimmick. Sunny Daze, Glacier, Orange Cassidy, Michael Nakazawa, Sonny Kiss, Jimmy Havoc and Joey Janela immediately spring to mind. That's a third of the advertised match right there. Two were older vets who weren't really big stars. Dustin Thomas never realistically stood a chance. Shawn Spears was enhancement talent in WWE. That takes us up to 11 people. That's half the match you're not supposed to take seriously.
> 
> Havoc looks like the lead singer from the Eurythmics. I laugh when I see him.
> 
> 
> 
> Daggdag said:
> 
> 
> 
> Anyone who trusts Jim Cornette to know who can draw is an idiot. This is a guy who thought the Boogyman was gonna be a top star in WWE.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Lol, what? He _hated_ The Boogeyman gimmick. Is this seriously what the anti-logic side has come to?
Click to expand...

OK I am bored. You two clearly are going to hate uncertain wrestlers without giving them a chance so I ain't going to waste time on two people stuck in their ways like Cornette is. No wonder you like him so much.


----------



## The Wood

ONE STEP CLOSER TO KOFI MANIA said:


> OK I am bored. You two clearly are going to hate uncertain wrestlers without giving them a chance so I ain't going to waste time on two people stuck in their ways like Cornette is. No wonder you like him so much.


1. It's up to performers to perform well. Audiences don't need to "give them chances." 

2. Havoc had a chance. He showed up, looked like the lead singer of an 80's pop-band and did shit with a cigarette and a staple gun. There's his chance. 

Hate is a strong word. I don't hate Jimmy Havoc. He has done nothing to appeal to me nor make me care about his existence on television though.


----------



## Beatles123

The Wood said:


> Cornette wants AEW to succeed too. Where do people get this idea that he doesn't? This is the most frustrating thing about the Cornette criticisms -- they're just so off-the-mark when it comes to what he actually says and why he says it.
> 
> 
> 
> Someone should have brought out a gun and shot someone so they could toss them over. No DQ match. Maybe a No DQ Battle Royal schmozz shouldn't be for your allegedly prestigious World Championship if it is going to feature such ridiculous gimmicks.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, what you don't see seems to fit an encyclopedia. Your generalizations aren't convincing me of anything. Basically everyone in the Battle Royal was a comedy gimmick. Sunny Daze, Glacier, Orange Cassidy, Michael Nakazawa, Sonny Kiss, Jimmy Havoc and Joey Janela immediately spring to mind. That's a third of the advertised match right there. Two were older vets who weren't really big stars. Dustin Thomas never realistically stood a chance. Shawn Spears was enhancement talent in WWE. That takes us up to 11 people. That's half the match you're not supposed to take seriously.
> 
> Havoc looks like the lead singer from the Eurythmics. I laugh when I see him.
> 
> 
> 
> Lol, what? He _hated_ The Boogeyman gimmick. Is this seriously what the anti-logic side has come to?


Thats fine wood. Havok in particular will make you a fan in time...that is id the notion you've given yourself can be put aside

Ill thank you not to coat yourself as the only one with "Logic" please. thats one of the qualities i loath in people.


----------



## The Wood

Lol, that's not what I'm doing. Cornette is a big proponent of it. Those against him seem to have an aversion to that, given their bizarre mischaracterizations.


----------



## Death Rider

The Wood said:


> ONE STEP CLOSER TO KOFI MANIA said:
> 
> 
> 
> OK I am bored. You two clearly are going to hate uncertain wrestlers without giving them a chance so I ain't going to waste time on two people stuck in their ways like Cornette is. No wonder you like him so much.
> 
> 
> 
> 1. It's up to performers to perform well. Audiences don't need to "give them chances."
> 
> 2. Havoc had a chance. He showed up, looked like the lead singer of an 80's pop-band and did shit with a cigarette and a staple gun. There's his chance.
> 
> Hate is a strong word. I don't hate Jimmy Havoc. He has done nothing to appeal to me nor make me care about his existence on television though.
Click to expand...

If you actually want to see what havoc is about look up some of his progress heel work when he was on top. He has a fair few on YouTube especially during his feud with will ospreay. If you still don't like him fair enough but judging him off a short appearance in a battle Royal is silly. Plus he is clearly not going to be a gimmick wrestler based on his main card appearance. Also he is a goth. He is going to dress like that. That is his character.


----------



## The Wood

ONE STEP CLOSER TO KOFI MANIA said:


> If you actually want to see what havoc is about look up some of his progress heel work when he was on top. He has a fair few on YouTube especially during his feud with will ospreay. If you still don't like him fair enough but *judging him off a short appearance in a battle Royal is silly.* Plus he is clearly not going to be a gimmick wrestler based on his main card appearance. Also he is a goth. He is going to dress like that. That is his character.


This is exactly one of the reasons the BR was a terrible idea. If you don't want to introduce someone that way...don't introduce them that way! It's not rocket science. This is exactly the sort of stuff WWE gets criticized about (and rightly so). 

I'm not impressed nor interested in that sort of character. I have seen it done better by people who look more authentic in the role. Justifying something that isn't effective by saying that it's supposed to be ineffective is not a great argument. I tried to watch Progress and gave up after one episode.


----------



## Death Rider

Well you are missing out on great heel work then. Your loss tbh :draper2


----------



## Arktik

ONE STEP CLOSER TO KOFI MANIA said:


> If you actually want to see what havoc is about look up some of his progress heel work when he was on top. He has a fair few on YouTube especially during his feud with will ospreay. If you still don't like him fair enough but judging him off a short appearance in a battle Royal is silly. Plus he is clearly not going to be a gimmick wrestler based on his main card appearance. Also he is a goth. He is going to dress like that. That is his character.


That's the problem AEW seems to have. A wrestler does something embarrassing and stupid that alienates potential fans. These potential fans talk about how that was embarrassing and stupid. AEW marks refuse to even acknowledge that there is room for improvement and say "but...just watch all of that wrestler's other work before you dismiss them." It is not my problem that a wrestler came off looking like a jackass on AEW's first show. They should be the ones with the vested interest in their talent looking great on their show.


----------



## Death Rider

Arktik said:


> ONE STEP CLOSER TO KOFI MANIA said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you actually want to see what havoc is about look up some of his progress heel work when he was on top. He has a fair few on YouTube especially during his feud with will ospreay. If you still don't like him fair enough but judging him off a short appearance in a battle Royal is silly. Plus he is clearly not going to be a gimmick wrestler based on his main card appearance. Also he is a goth. He is going to dress like that. That is his character.
> 
> 
> 
> That's the problem AEW seems to have. A wrestler does something embarrassing and stupid that alienates potential fans. These potential fans talk about how that was embarrassing and stupid. AEW marks refuse to even acknowledge that there is room for improvement and say "but...just watch all of that wrestler's other work before you dismiss them." It is not my problem that a wrestler came off looking like a jackass on AEW's first show. They should be the ones with the vested interest in their talent looking great on their show.
Click to expand...

He is complaining about a spot that is not embarrassing or stupid imo. If you had a problem with the staple gun spot then I don't really give a fuck. I enjoyed it. I was recommending other work trying to show someone's skill after someone stupidly said they were a gimmick wrestler in the thread. If you hate hardcore spots you ain't going to like havoc and you are welcome to not as we are welcome to say we enjoy it.


----------



## The Wood

Arktik said:


> That's the problem AEW seems to have. A wrestler does something embarrassing and stupid that alienates potential fans. These potential fans talk about how that was embarrassing and stupid. AEW marks refuse to even acknowledge that there is room for improvement and say "but...just watch all of that wrestler's other work before you dismiss them." It is not my problem that a wrestler came off looking like a jackass on AEW's first show. They should be the ones with the vested interest in their talent looking great on their show.


Holy shit, this. Yes. 



ONE STEP CLOSER TO KOFI MANIA said:


> He is complaining about a spot that is not embarrassing or stupid imo. If you had a problem with the staple gun spot then I don't really give a fuck. I enjoyed it. I was recommending other work trying to show someone's skill after someone stupidly said they were a gimmick wrestler in the thread. If you hate hardcore spots you ain't going to like havoc and you are welcome to not as we are welcome to say we enjoy it.


You can like that shit if you want, but it doesn't make people wrong when they see it, think it is amateurish and decide they're not going to financially support that promotion. It's not really about whether or not you give a fuck -- it's about the people who do give a fuck. And I don't see why you say it is stupid to call him a gimmick wrestler when you go on in the very next sentence to describe him as a guy who leans on the hardcore gimmicks. That's literally what a gimmick wrestler is.


----------



## Death Rider

He is not a gimmick wrestler though. Yeah he does hardcore matches but he does not only do hardcore matches.

Also if people don't want to watch then don't. You can always skip parts of a show you don't like. It ain't hard. All I care about is it being a good show for me to watch. If you don't want to watch and support it you don't have to. I enjoyed the spot and disagree with the comments calling it ameturish etc etc. Guess what not everyone has to agree with you or your criticisms.


----------



## The Wood

ONE STEP CLOSER TO KOFI MANIA said:


> He is not a gimmick wrestler though. Yeah he does hardcore matches but he does not only do hardcore matches.
> 
> Also if people don't want to watch then don't. You can always skip parts of a show you don't like. It ain't hard. All I care about is it being a good show for me to watch. If you don't want to watch and support it you don't have to. I enjoyed the spot and disagree with the comments calling it ameturish etc etc. Guess what not everyone has to agree with you or your criticisms.


I dunno, stapling a cigarette to a guy's head sounds a lot like a gimmick wrestler to me. It was you who said you're not going to like him if you don't like hardcore stuff. That was at least the part he chose to amplify when given his largest platform. 

Yes, and that is exactly the point. A lot of people won't watch. A lot of people don't want to have to wade through shit to get to parts that make sense. It's great you thought it was good. We're talking about people who don't, why they don't, and why it's probably not a good way to get people in. It's wonderful you don't agree with that opinion, but we're talking about the people who do, and why that is a net negative for AEW. You don't have to agree. You don't have to like it. But those criticisms are valid. It's ironic you are saying that people don't have to agree with those criticisms in a thread that is basically people trying to disagree with those criticisms.


----------



## Daggdag

The Wood said:


> Cornette wants AEW to succeed too. Where do people get this idea that he doesn't? This is the most frustrating thing about the Cornette criticisms -- they're just so off-the-mark when it comes to what he actually says and why he says it.
> 
> 
> 
> Someone should have brought out a gun and shot someone so they could toss them over. No DQ match. Maybe a No DQ Battle Royal schmozz shouldn't be for your allegedly prestigious World Championship if it is going to feature such ridiculous gimmicks.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, what you don't see seems to fit an encyclopedia. Your generalizations aren't convincing me of anything. Basically everyone in the Battle Royal was a comedy gimmick. Sunny Daze, Glacier, Orange Cassidy, Michael Nakazawa, Sonny Kiss, Jimmy Havoc and Joey Janela immediately spring to mind. That's a third of the advertised match right there. Two were older vets who weren't really big stars. Dustin Thomas never realistically stood a chance. Shawn Spears was enhancement talent in WWE. That takes us up to 11 people. That's half the match you're not supposed to take seriously.
> 
> Havoc looks like the lead singer from the Eurythmics. I laugh when I see him.
> 
> 
> 
> Lol, what? He _hated_ The Boogeyman gimmick. Is this seriously what the anti-logic side has come to?



I wasn't talking about the gimmick. I was taking about the man. Martin Wright, who played the Boogyman. Cornette thought he was amazing, but hated his gimmick.

In truth, he was mediocre at best, and the ONLY reason he ever got signed to WWE is him gimmick.


----------



## The Wood

Daggdag said:


> I wasn't talking about the gimmick. I was taking about the man. Martin Wright, who played the Boogyman. Cornette thought he was amazing, but hated his gimmick.
> 
> In truth, he was mediocre at best, and the ONLY reason he ever got signed to WWE is him gimmick.


Lol, I think the most he's ever said about the guy was that he was jacked, in good shape (especially for his age), worked hard and was a nice guy. Probably could have been more than what he was type of thing. Where did he ever say he was going to be a huge star? And the guy's ethic, stupid as the gimmick is, still gets him work with WWE today. What a weird thing to assert and latch onto. I mean, if you wanted to go with guys he thought could have been much bigger and weren't, you could have really focused on some of the core OVW guys, like Nick Dinsmore, Rob Conway, Doug Basham, Damaja and even going later with Mike Mondo. I mean, he never thought they would be as big as he predicted Brock, Batista, Orton and Cena to be (four of those were right on the money predictions), but he was a big proponent of all of them and WWE never did anything with them, so you've at least got that. But Marty Wright? Really? 

And he actually got signed because he was a sob story from Tough Enough and they thought there was something they could do with a guy that impressed like he did but was coming along as late as he was.


----------



## Daggdag

The Wood said:


> I dunno, stapling a cigarette to a guy's head sounds a lot like a gimmick wrestler to me. It was you who said you're not going to like him if you don't like hardcore stuff. That was at least the part he chose to amplify when given his largest platform.
> 
> Yes, and that is exactly the point. A lot of people won't watch. A lot of people don't want to have to wade through shit to get to parts that make sense. It's great you thought it was good. We're talking about people who don't, why they don't, and why it's probably not a good way to get people in. It's wonderful you don't agree with that opinion, but we're talking about the people who do, and why that is a net negative for AEW. You don't have to agree. You don't have to like it. But those criticisms are valid. It's ironic you are saying that people don't have to agree with those criticisms in a thread that is basically people trying to disagree with those criticisms.


I doubt we will see much outright deathmatch wrestlig. The Khans want to get some major sponsors and sponsors tends to frown on people bashing each others' faces in with light tubes. You might see a match every now and then. Especially if Moxley and Havok get in the ring together, but other than that I doubt it.


----------



## Daggdag

The Wood said:


> Lol, I think the most he's ever said about the guy was that he was jacked, in good shape (especially for his age), worked hard and was a nice guy. Probably could have been more than what he was type of thing. Where did he ever say he was going to be a huge star? And the guy's ethic, stupid as the gimmick is, still gets him work with WWE today. What a weird thing to assert and latch onto. I mean, if you wanted to go with guys he thought could have been much bigger and weren't, you could have really focused on some of the core OVW guys, like Nick Dinsmore, Rob Conway, Doug Basham, Damaja and even going later with Mike Mondo. I mean, he never thought they would be as big as he predicted Brock, Batista, Orton and Cena to be (four of those were right on the money predictions), but he was a big proponent of all of them and WWE never did anything with them, so you've at least got that. But Marty Wright? Really?
> 
> And he actually got signed because he was a sob story from Tough Enough and they thought there was something they could do with a guy that impressed like he did but was coming along as late as he was.


He wasn't that much older than Batista when he was signed. I'm not sure why they thought he was too old. Batista was 33 when he got called up to the main roster, and Wright was 38.


----------



## Death Rider

The Wood said:


> ONE STEP CLOSER TO KOFI MANIA said:
> 
> 
> 
> He is not a gimmick wrestler though. Yeah he does hardcore matches but he does not only do hardcore matches.
> 
> Also if people don't want to watch then don't. You can always skip parts of a show you don't like. It ain't hard. All I care about is it being a good show for me to watch. If you don't want to watch and support it you don't have to. I enjoyed the spot and disagree with the comments calling it ameturish etc etc. Guess what not everyone has to agree with you or your criticisms.
> 
> 
> 
> I dunno, stapling a cigarette to a guy's head sounds a lot like a gimmick wrestler to me. It was you who said you're not going to like him if you don't like hardcore stuff. That was at least the part he chose to amplify when given his largest platform.
> 
> Yes, and that is exactly the point. A lot of people won't watch. A lot of people don't want to have to wade through shit to get to parts that make sense. It's great you thought it was good. We're talking about people who don't, why they don't, and why it's probably not a good way to get people in. It's wonderful you don't agree with that opinion, but we're talking about the people who do, and why that is a net negative for AEW. You don't have to agree. You don't have to like it. But those criticisms are valid. It's ironic you are saying that people don't have to agree with those criticisms in a thread that is basically people trying to disagree with those criticisms.
Click to expand...

Good to know you speak for tons of people cause the majority of people who watched enjoyed the show from what I can see. Funny how most people have been positive yet you are acting like people did not like the show overall. Was there some choices I disagreed with or parts I did find good? Yes but it was a good show which online people have reacted positively to.

Heck I know someone who ain't watched in years who checked it out and enjoyed the show including the havoc cigratte spot. If one spot was going to turn someone off they probs were not going to watch anyway :draper2. They seem to be going for a variety of talents so obviously not everyone is going to appeal to you.

Also no offence to Cornette but he really has not spoke for the majority of fans in long time. He is allowed his opinion but he is certainly not someone up to date with modern opinions so acting like Cornette hated it so everyone did comes off as naive


----------



## jeffatron

Daggdag said:


> Anyone who trusts Jim Cornette to know who can draw is an idiot. This is a guy who thought the Boogyman was gonna be a top star in WWE.


Oh for sure, can't disagree there. Much like the rest of the old farts in rasslin, his views are dated and he is struggling to understand what people like and dislike these days. The whole video game bashing segment during his podcast def. painted him as "old man yelling at the clouds" for me. VGs are mainstream now Jim, wether you get it or not.


----------



## Death Rider

jeffatron said:


> Daggdag said:
> 
> 
> 
> Anyone who trusts Jim Cornette to know who can draw is an idiot. This is a guy who thought the Boogyman was gonna be a top star in WWE.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh for sure, can't disagree there. Much like the rest of the old farts in rasslin, his views are dated and he is struggling to understand what people like and dislike these days. The whole video game bashing segment during his podcast def. painted him as "old man yelling at the clouds" for me. VGs are mainstream now Jim, wether you get it or not.
Click to expand...

That reminds me of the progress show that was named after him when he went on one of his rants about the owner :lol. "old man yells at cloud"


----------



## jeffatron

ONE STEP CLOSER TO KOFI MANIA said:


> That reminds me of the progress show that was named after him when he went on one of his rants about the owner :lol. "old man yells at cloud"


:sodone LOL awesome.

In all honnesty, I do like Cornette's podcast. It's just like everything else out there, I don't take it as gospel and take it with a huge grain of salt. I mean, the guy literally bitches about dudes not being tanned enough and rages about it lol


----------



## HankHill_85

Cornette's gonna Cornette. If it was up to him, major wrestling promotions would still be running shows in smoke-filled arenas and halls, heels would cut cheesy promos filled with cheap heat, and babyfaces would sell in that really over the top "Tennessee wrasslin' style" where you plead and die on your knees looking like a praying televangelist.

It's best to just let him do his Twitter thing and move on with your daily life.


----------



## The Wood

Daggdag said:


> He wasn't that much older than Batista when he was signed. I'm not sure why they thought he was too old. Batista was 33 when he got called up to the main roster, and Wright was 38.


There's a huge difference between 33 and 38. He was also infamously kicked off Tough Enough for missing the age cut. This is a pretty black-and-white event. WWE thought he was too old for Tough Enough. Doesn't matter if you can process why or not. 



ONE STEP CLOSER TO KOFI MANIA said:


> Good to know you speak for tons of people cause the majority of people who watched enjoyed the show from what I can see. Funny how most people have been positive yet you are acting like people did not like the show overall. Was there some choices I disagreed with or parts I did find good? Yes but it was a good show which online people have reacted positively to.
> 
> Heck I know someone who ain't watched in years who checked it out and enjoyed the show including the havoc cigratte spot. If one spot was going to turn someone off they probs were not going to watch anyway :draper2. They seem to be going for a variety of talents so obviously not everyone is going to appeal to you.
> 
> Also no offence to Cornette but he really has not spoke for the majority of fans in long time. He is allowed his opinion but he is certainly not someone up to date with modern opinions so acting like Cornette hated it so everyone did comes off as naive


Jesus Christ...you cannot really think like this, can you? You are surely just arguing for the sake of it at this point? Do you even listen to what people say to you? 

No one is being fucking negative. Cornette's review was prefaced with the tagline "some was double, some was nothing." There was some good shit on the show. _No one_ has argued against that. Stop. That. Fucking. Line. It's wrong. It ignores what people are actually saying. It's a gross misrepresentation. I _loved_ Cody/Dustin. That doesn't mean I have to like the bullshit Battle Royal at the start. The opinion of a few people in an an AEW message board, who blindly misrepresent like this, is a minority of a minority. You're speaking for them as much as anybody. Cornette is using his years of experience, and frankly his wrestling genius, to explain why that tact is not going to draw many more than the people who gobble that shit up like you are. And no, if something insanely fucking stupid turns you off, that doesn't mean you weren't going to watch anyway. That's such a defeatist position on things making sense. 



ONE STEP CLOSER TO KOFI MANIA said:


> That reminds me of the progress show that was named after him when he went on one of his rants about the owner :lol. "old man yells at cloud"


Yet I guarantee you more people listened to Jim Cornette's podcast that week than watched that episode of Progress. A low Corny Experience gets about 25k views on YouTube (that ignores podcast delivery mechanisms). The trailer for that Progress show has <6k. I think the WWE gets <100k viewers in the UK these days. No way Progress does better than that. Cornette gets about 1 million listens a month, which averaged out is about 250,000 people an episode. Yep, Cornette is sooooooo out of touch and doesn't speak to people anymore. 



HankHill_85 said:


> Cornette's gonna Cornette. If it was up to him, major wrestling promotions would still be running shows in smoke-filled arenas and halls, heels would cut cheesy promos filled with cheap heat, and babyfaces would sell in that really over the top "Tennessee wrasslin' style" where you plead and die on your knees looking like a praying televangelist.
> 
> It's best to just let him do his Twitter thing and move on with your daily life.


That's such a WWE revisionist myth. Wrestling used to run in quite prestigious venues. Heel wasn't cheap like it is today, and babyfaces didn't really sell like that. But okay.


----------



## HankHill_85

The Wood said:


> That's such a WWE revisionist myth. Wrestling used to run in quite prestigious venues. Heel wasn't cheap like it is today, and babyfaces didn't really sell like that. But okay.


Archival video footage proves you wrong. But okay.


----------



## hgr423

Where did Cornette make these comments? Thank you


----------



## The Wood

In the latest update to this morons-can't-listen story: Sami Callihan proudly admitted to spitting on Cornette at an AEW show recently. Bragged about how Cornette did nothing. Apparently he also got Rich Bocchini and both Boch and Corny tore Callihan apart on commentary, and it has been intimated by Cornette that Callihan won't be back in MLW. Also, Callihan calls himself "The Draw," which you should probably stop doing if the acting color commentator is more valuable than you. And those are the sort of people you are dealing with in this: 

A bunch of hack wrestlers that aren't very good at their jobs and will grab whatever low-hanging fruit they think they can twist off because they can't handle professional criticism. I listened to the Battle Royal criticism from Cornette again. So very clear he is not being homophobic. It's easy to get caught up in wider socio-political debates, but if you actually listen to the guy, it's clear he's got no target at Kiss as a person, but rather a bullshit wrestling gimmick with no explanation behind it. That simple.


----------



## BulletClubFangirl

Great, another manchild wrestler spitting on someone because they didn't like what they said. What's gross is that everyone is cheering him on for it on twitter because he claims he did it for Sonny Kiss. Even if he was a bigot you can't just fucking spit on people. Just let the old man give his boring boomer takes on modern wrestling ffs. I can only hope it's a work.


----------



## The Wood

HankHill_85 said:


> Archival video footage proves you wrong. But okay.


That's a wave of the magic wand if I ever saw one. Cool story. 

Wrestling did used to run in prestigious arenas. The Omni, Greensboro Coliseum, the Cow Palace, Mid-South Coliseum. It used to have higher attendances per year than almost all wrestling promotions get now (despite this being an alleged resurgence of wrestling). So you're flat-out wrong about that. 

The heat in territorial wrestling was widely seen as legitimate. There are numerous accounts of wrestlers being stabbed and attempts at other physical attacks. What do you classify as cheap heat? Beating on Dusty in a cage? Cheap heat is when you take a short-cut to an emotional response. It's not always a bad thing, but it's generally associated with things like insulting the hometown, insulting the audience members, etc. It's usually water off a duck's back. I'd like to know what your definition of cheap heat is, what supports it, and how territory wrestling can be associated with that in a way that distinguishes it from modern wrestling. 

Babyfaces used to sell. It's widely regarded as the reason people gave a shit about them. Not sure what you mean like a TV evangelist. Sounds more like an exaggerated description of how a heel would sell in Mid-Atlantic. That worked too. If you want to see old-school babyface selling, go and watch Dustin Rhodes at Double or Nothing. If that's what you mean, fine, I'll go with that as TV evangelist and call it a plus. But I don't see what you're getting there.


----------



## Beatles123

The Wood said:


> In the latest update to this morons-can't-listen story: Sami Callihan proudly admitted to spitting on Cornette at an AEW show recently. Bragged about how Cornette did nothing. Apparently he also got Rich Bocchini and both Boch and Corny tore Callihan apart on commentary, and it has been intimated by Cornette that Callihan won't be back in MLW. Also, Callihan calls himself "The Draw," which you should probably stop doing if the acting color commentator is more valuable than you. And those are the sort of people you are dealing with in this:
> 
> A bunch of hack wrestlers that aren't very good at their jobs and will grab whatever low-hanging fruit they think they can twist off because they can't handle professional criticism. I listened to the Battle Royal criticism from Cornette again. So very clear he is not being homophobic. It's easy to get caught up in wider socio-political debates, but if you actually listen to the guy, it's clear he's got no target at Kiss as a person, but rather a bullshit wrestling gimmick with no explanation behind it. That simple.


An Aew show? :taker Are you sure?


It isn't "Very clear" at all by the way, so surely you aren't calling ME a moron?


----------



## Death Rider

When was Sami Caillihan at an AEW show? Also if he spat at him without Cornette agreeing that is gross and wrong. I like Sami but that is just stupid.

Progress is not a massive company nor did I claim they were. They were still right when they called Cornette an angry old man who yells at clouds

Edit: It was at a MLW show not an AEW show. Read the comments. Callihan is wrong to do what he did but fuck Cornette for his comments. Also reading his comments to Joey Ryan proves why I have zero time for him. He clearly has rage issues and should see a therapist


----------



## Hephaesteus

ONE STEP CLOSER TO KOFI MANIA said:


> OK I am bored. You two clearly are going to hate uncertain wrestlers without giving them a chance so I ain't going to waste time on two people stuck in their ways like Cornette is. No wonder you like him so much.


Says the person determined to love everything AEW no matter how substandard the quality


----------



## TD Stinger

Alright, so which thread dies first? This one or the Orange Cassidy one? Because honestly it's fascinating seeing them both continue for a variety of reasons.


----------



## Beatles123

Hephaesteus said:


> Says the person determined to love everything AEW no matter how substandard the quality


Stop. He's always been honest and fair.


----------



## BulletClubFangirl

TD Stinger said:


> Alright, so which thread dies first? This one or the Orange Cassidy one? Because honestly it's fascinating seeing them both continue for a variety of reasons.


Well a wrestler recently admitted to spitting on Cornette over his comments so I'd say it's still topical for that alone. I couldn't have given less of a shit before though.


----------



## Beatles123

I said Cornette didn't want this fight and this is an example. It may have been bad form by sammi, but he won't be the only one and it's Jim's own fault.


----------



## BulletClubFangirl

Beatles123 said:


> I said Cornette didn't want this fight and this is an example. It may have been bad form by sammi, but he won't be the only one and it's Jim's own fault.


What a load of shit. It's not Jim's fault that someone chose to spit on him over comments that he made on his own podcast and social media. He's someone who people can easily tune out and block but instead choose to give attention to. Gotta love all the people who are more outraged by a guy saying non-PC things than a guy who committed assault. He's also an old man who has talked about his poor health in recent years. He's not doing himself any favors by getting so worked up over nothing but neither is Sami for fucking spitting on him.

The Wood was right when he pointed out that Cornette is ultimately a very liberal guy anyway, despite the verbiage he uses. He supports gay marriage and his problem with Sonny isn't that he's gay, it's that he's flamboyant and comedic about it. He doesn't like that cutesy shit whether it has to do with anyone's sexuality or not. There's literally hours of Cornette rants on youtube to back this up. He's tweeted about supporting gay marriage and shat on peope from his state for opposing it. He shits on conservatives and Trump all the time but people cannibalize him because he doesn't like Sonny Kiss? What the fuck is wrong with you guys?

Still hoping this is all a work. We should know for sure soon enough.


----------



## Sin City Saint

Kinda surprised Cornette signed with MLW given his reactions to a lot of the current top “Indy” talent.


----------



## Beatles123

BulletClubFangirl said:


> What a load of shit. It's not Jim's fault that someone chose to spit on him over comments that he made on his own podcast and social media. He's someone who people can easily tune out and block but instead choose to give attention to. Gotta love all the people who are more outraged by a guy saying non-PC things than a guy who committed assault. He's also an old man who has talked about his poor health in recent years. He's not doing himself any favors by getting so worked up over nothing but neither is Sami for fucking spitting on him.
> 
> The Wood was right when he pointed out that Cornette is ultimately a very liberal guy anyway, despite the verbiage he uses. He supports gay marriage and his problem with Sonny isn't that he's gay, it's that he's flamboyant and comedic about it. He doesn't like that cutesy shit whether it has to do with anyone's sexuality or not. There's literally hours of Cornette rants on youtube to back this up. He's tweeted about supporting gay marriage and shat on peope from his state for opposing it. He shits on conservatives and Trump all the time but people cannibalize him because he doesn't like Sonny Kiss? What the fuck is wrong with you guys?
> 
> Still hoping this is all a work. We should know for sure soon enough.


I'm not saying it was right, im saying he should have known this would happen. The fact it was sammi is one thing, but it could have been anyone. This is the climate we live in. I had it thrown at me and rightfully so. Thankfully i'm (I hope) a better person now.

It reminds me of when Kong beat the shit out of Bubba The Love Sponge over his Hati comments. It wasn't right, but he was the one who broadcast those things to the world.


----------



## The Wood

Sin City Saint said:


> Kinda surprised Cornette signed with MLW given his reactions to a lot of the current top “Indy” talent.


Yeah, that was huge "shocker" to me too, haha. His commentary in MLW has been amazing thus far (haven't listened to it all yet). So surreal to hear Corny calling a lucha match and absolutely killing it. Probably Commentator of the Year, to be honest. 



Beatles123 said:


> I'm not saying it was right, im saying he should have known this would happen. The fact it was sammi is one thing, but it could have been anyone. This is the climate we live in. I had it thrown at me and rightfully so. Thankfully i'm (I hope) a better person now.
> 
> It reminds me of when Kong beat the shit out of Bubba The Love Sponge over his Hati comments. It wasn't right, but he was the one who broadcast those things to the world.


It reminds me more of the Meltzer situation where insecure wrestlers piled onto a guy whose point was clearly not what they were responding to. Bubba the Love Sponge is a racist piece of shit. Cornette was making a point about bad wrestling being presented badly. Very different things, but many have made that point before, so that conversation is just circular. 

And his comments may not have been clear to you, but you also explicitly stated that you did not listen and only read them after being outraged. That's kind of telling. Have you actually listened to his commentary on the Battle Royal yet, or are you taking the word of pieces of shit like Joey Ryan (peddler of rape and pedophile jokes), Priscilla Kelly (Joey Ryan sycophant and someone who cries that period blood isn't gross after just trying to use it like it is) and Sami Callihan (a reckless piece of shit who has not done wanton damage to Eddie Edwards and Kevin Sullivan and committed assault against two announcers)? You're taking the word of self-serving scum instead of actually addressing the source and the context it was delivered in. If you still feel that Cornette was being homophobic after listening to the actual podcast, I'll hear you out on that, but it's pretty clear that you're going off emotions that others are preying on. 



ONE STEP CLOSER TO KOFI MANIA said:


> When was Sami Caillihan at an AEW show? Also if he spat at him without Cornette agreeing that is gross and wrong. I like Sami but that is just stupid.
> 
> Progress is not a massive company nor did I claim they were. They were still right when they called Cornette an angry old man who yells at clouds
> 
> Edit: It was at a MLW show not an AEW show. Read the comments. Callihan is wrong to do what he did but fuck Cornette for his comments. Also reading his comments to Joey Ryan proves why I have zero time for him. He clearly has rage issues and should see a therapist


MLW* I was a typo. My bad. 

I'm glad you can admit that is wrong. So much cooler to see that than the people who defend assault (and the assault of Rich Bocchini, for that matter) versus some comments that were interpreted wrong. 

Nah, Progress were wrong about that. You didn't say they were a massive company, but how can you imply they are more in-tune with the voice of wrestling fans when they're so off in the margins presenting wrestling the way they do? Cornette does not yell at clouds -- he yells at a lack of logic in wrestling. FFS, there is plenty of modern stuff that Corny gives a positive review to -- even on the Double or Nothing show! Can we stop with the exaggerated straw-men and address the criticisms for what they are? Painting him in that light completely ignores the validity of them. 



TD Stinger said:


> Alright, so which thread dies first? This one or the Orange Cassidy one? Because honestly it's fascinating seeing them both continue for a variety of reasons.


I don't think either is obligated to end if there is discussion going on. I love debating this stuff with people, even if it does sometimes get comically frustrating sometimes. 



BulletClubFangirl said:


> What a load of shit. It's not Jim's fault that someone chose to spit on him over comments that he made on his own podcast and social media. He's someone who people can easily tune out and block but instead choose to give attention to. Gotta love all the people who are more outraged by a guy saying non-PC things than a guy who committed assault. He's also an old man who has talked about his poor health in recent years. He's not doing himself any favors by getting so worked up over nothing but neither is Sami for fucking spitting on him.
> 
> The Wood was right when he pointed out that Cornette is ultimately a very liberal guy anyway, despite the verbiage he uses. He supports gay marriage and his problem with Sonny isn't that he's gay, it's that he's flamboyant and comedic about it. He doesn't like that cutesy shit whether it has to do with anyone's sexuality or not. There's literally hours of Cornette rants on youtube to back this up. He's tweeted about supporting gay marriage and shat on peope from his state for opposing it. He shits on conservatives and Trump all the time but people cannibalize him because he doesn't like Sonny Kiss? What the fuck is wrong with you guys?
> 
> Still hoping this is all a work. We should know for sure soon enough.


Thank you for that wonderful post. 

Look, if Corny actually said something homophobic, I'd be all for educating him. And there probably is a lesson about some of the lingo he used in there. One of my first posts in here was about how "cringy" the word "transvestite" is. I still agree with that. But if you listen to the podcast it is clear he is trying to describe the presentation of the Sonny Kiss gimmick without being offensive. He's clearly not trying to take shots at the identity of the person portraying it -- it's clear he has no clue who that person is, nor does he probably care to. You don't need to be gay to subvert gender binaries in your dress, which is a stereotype that I personally find offensive. I'm also not that peachy keen on wrestlers using the LGBT+ community for comedic value in 2019. That's how many saw the Kiss using his ass as a weapon as he smiles and prances around thing. There's your personal identity, and then there's your professional identity. If a straight wrestler was doing what, for example, Joey Ryan was doing, it would be blasted too. 

It's probably not a work, since Cornette thinks Callihan is trash for hurting Edwards and Sullivan, and I doubt MLW draw attention to such a hot-button thing getting so many people (wrongly) offside. Cornette will be fine with the spitting though, most likely. He used to get spit on every night. Callihan is just acting like a mark back in the day. He's also clearly doing it for his self-serving and condescending purposes, just like the people who "stood up for" Peyton Royce. 

There's hours of evidence of Cornette supporting equal rights, criticizing homophobes, transphobes and bigots -- just like there are hours of him defending a lot of modern wrestling. People won't hear it though, because it pops the narrative they are trying to use to get themselves over and to continue denying that there are any problems with the professional decisions they make.

To be perfectly honest, it's a bunch of insecure artists proving how insecure they are about their art, all the while screaming "I don't care!" while they try and tear down someone who could help them do it better. It's not about sexuality or equality. It's about dinosaur masks, superkicks, painting yourself different colors and using your penis as a weapon (how progressive). Anyone with half-a-brain knows there was nothing homophobic about this rant or the human being in general. It's a bunch of wrestlers who think wrestling is a "performance" and a private expression of themselves that are getting all tangled into knots, completely forgetting that wrestling is a public display and presentation. If Sonny Kiss, as a character, walked onto a TV show, that performance would be torn apart to shreds by critics as retrograde, stereotypical and distasteful. Can you imagine a cop show with a cop who wears a tiny uniform and uses their ass in fights with perps? Yeah...

Criticism of Sonny Kiss only becomes problematic when you don't consider Sonny Kiss as an act, but rather a human being. This is not what Cornette was targeting (obviously -- the whole podcast was "first impressions"). Kiss isn't out there to be a human being. He's out there to be a professional athlete on a wrestling program. Allegedly. Why would anyone think Cornette gave two shits about the human being before or outside that presentation is beyond me, other than it being a convenient tool for slander and furthering a personal agenda.


----------



## Beatles123

The Wood said:


> Yeah, that was huge "shocker" to me too, haha. His commentary in MLW has been amazing thus far (haven't listened to it all yet). So surreal to hear Corny calling a lucha match and absolutely killing it. Probably Commentator of the Year, to be honest.
> 
> 
> 
> It reminds me more of the Meltzer situation where insecure wrestlers piled onto a guy whose point was clearly not what they were responding to. Bubba the Love Sponge is a racist piece of shit. Cornette was making a point about bad wrestling being presented badly. Very different things, but many have made that point before, so that conversation is just circular.
> 
> And his comments may not have been clear to you, but you also explicitly stated that you did not listen and only read them after being outraged. That's kind of telling. Have you actually listened to his commentary on the Battle Royal yet, or are you taking the word of pieces of shit like Joey Ryan (peddler of rape and pedophile jokes), Priscilla Kelly (Joey Ryan sycophant and someone who cries that period blood isn't gross after just trying to use it like it is) and Sami Callihan (a reckless piece of shit who has not done wanton damage to Eddie Edwards and Kevin Sullivan and committed assault against two announcers)? You're taking the word of self-serving scum instead of actually addressing the source and the context it was delivered in. If you still feel that Cornette was being homophobic after listening to the actual podcast, I'll hear you out on that, but it's pretty clear that you're going off emotions that others are preying on.
> 
> 
> 
> MLW* I was a typo. My bad.
> 
> I'm glad you can admit that is wrong. So much cooler to see that than the people who defend assault (and the assault of Rich Bocchini, for that matter) versus some comments that were interpreted wrong.
> 
> Nah, Progress were wrong about that. You didn't say they were a massive company, but how can you imply they are more in-tune with the voice of wrestling fans when they're so off in the margins presenting wrestling the way they do? Cornette does not yell at clouds -- he yells at a lack of logic in wrestling. FFS, there is plenty of modern stuff that Corny gives a positive review to -- even on the Double or Nothing show! Can we stop with the exaggerated straw-men and address the criticisms for what they are? Painting him in that light completely ignores the validity of them.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think either is obligated to end if there is discussion going on. I love debating this stuff with people, even if it does sometimes get comically frustrating sometimes.
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you for that wonderful post.
> 
> Look, if Corny actually said something homophobic, I'd be all for educating him. And there probably is a lesson about some of the lingo he used in there. One of my first posts in here was about how "cringy" the word "transvestite" is. I still agree with that. But if you listen to the podcast it is clear he is trying to describe the presentation of the Sonny Kiss gimmick without being offensive. He's clearly not trying to take shots at the identity of the person portraying it -- it's clear he has no clue who that person is, nor does he probably care to. You don't need to be gay to subvert gender binaries in your dress, which is a stereotype that I personally find offensive. I'm also not that peachy keen on wrestlers using the LGBT+ community for comedic value in 2019. That's how many saw the Kiss using his ass as a weapon as he smiles and prances around thing. There's your personal identity, and then there's your professional identity. If a straight wrestler was doing what, for example, Joey Ryan was doing, it would be blasted too.
> 
> It's probably not a work, since Cornette thinks Callihan is trash for hurting Edwards and Sullivan, and I doubt MLW draw attention to such a hot-button thing getting so many people (wrongly) offside. Cornette will be fine with the spitting though, most likely. He used to get spit on every night. Callihan is just acting like a mark back in the day. He's also clearly doing it for his self-serving and condescending purposes, just like the people who "stood up for" Peyton Royce.
> 
> There's hours of evidence of Cornette supporting equal rights, criticizing homophobes, transphobes and bigots -- just like there are hours of him defending a lot of modern wrestling. People won't hear it though, because it pops the narrative they are trying to use to get themselves over and to continue denying that there are any problems with the professional decisions they make.
> 
> To be perfectly honest, it's a bunch of insecure artists proving how insecure they are about their art, all the while screaming "I don't care!" while they try and tear down someone who could help them do it better. It's not about sexuality or equality. It's about dinosaur masks, superkicks, painting yourself different colors and using your penis as a weapon (how progressive). Anyone with half-a-brain knows there was nothing homophobic about this rant or the human being in general. It's a bunch of wrestlers who think wrestling is a "performance" and a private expression of themselves that are getting all tangled into knots, completely forgetting that wrestling is a public display and presentation. If Sonny Kiss, as a character, walked onto a TV show, that performance would be torn apart to shreds by critics as retrograde, stereotypical and distasteful. Can you imagine a cop show with a cop who wears a tiny uniform and uses their ass in fights with perps? Yeah...
> 
> Criticism of Sonny Kiss only becomes problematic when you don't consider Sonny Kiss as an act, but rather a human being. This is not what Cornette was targeting (obviously -- the whole podcast was "first impressions"). Kiss isn't out there to be a human being. He's out there to be a professional athlete on a wrestling program. Allegedly. Why would anyone think Cornette gave two shits about the human being before or outside that presentation is beyond me, other than it being a convenient tool for slander and furthering a personal agenda.


I'm going by his actual words, Wood. No one is telling me what to think. I know what he said and i've already told you an easy-ass way he could have made his point (which I disagree with) and avoided all of this. He didn't do that. He didn't even THINK of doing that. Therefore now he must incure the negative repercussions, even if it means getting spat on by OTHER less than savory people because THERE WAS ONLY ONE WAY PEOPLE WERE GOING TO TAKE IT. You can't play like that in 2019, and it's funny how people are using his being liberal as an excuse for the fact he should know better. it's akin to saying "I'm not racist, I have black friends!" - If he is such a proud progressive, he ought to do a better job with understanding what not to say.

"I think Sonny could have maybe been presented a little better." - BOOM! Right there, short, sweet, to the point! Not "Who is he, this transgender who looked fresh out of the drag show?" (Yes, im paraphrasing but i've heard his quote.) You can't tell me he doesn't have some issues to work through if he calls that being progressive. Further, if he has a problem with Sonny shaking his ass, tough shit. It's not a gimmick. It's him going out there and being himself, in the ring. Same as anyone else. The fact Cornette thinks that therefore is something thats beneath him and HIS VISION of what wrestling should be IS in my eyes homophobic in nature. That's my stance and it's a lot of other people's stance as well. Jim needs to just bow out, admit it isn't something he knows diddly dick about and move on. In stead we have to hear about how bad Joey Ryan is to make his own actions seem less moronic.

No! I DON'T forgive him. I'm not going to spit on him or say he deserves it, but there are people that would do even worse, and unless he moves on the right way someone just might. Not that I'd endorse it.

Edit: By the way, where do you get off telling me what is and isn't homophobic? Not to be mean, but you just said "Anyone with half a brain" would essentially agree with you. Well I guess I can ride the short bus in your view, eh?


----------



## Death Rider

The Wood said:


> Yeah, that was huge "shocker" to me too, haha. His commentary in MLW has been amazing thus far (haven't listened to it all yet). So surreal to hear Corny calling a lucha match and absolutely killing it. Probably Commentator of the Year, to be honest.
> 
> 
> 
> It reminds me more of the Meltzer situation where insecure wrestlers piled onto a guy whose point was clearly not what they were responding to. Bubba the Love Sponge is a racist piece of shit. Cornette was making a point about bad wrestling being presented badly. Very different things, but many have made that point before, so that conversation is just circular.
> 
> And his comments may not have been clear to you, but you also explicitly stated that you did not listen and only read them after being outraged. That's kind of telling. Have you actually listened to his commentary on the Battle Royal yet, or are you taking the word of pieces of shit like Joey Ryan (peddler of rape and pedophile jokes), Priscilla Kelly (Joey Ryan sycophant and someone who cries that period blood isn't gross after just trying to use it like it is) and Sami Callihan (a reckless piece of shit who has not done wanton damage to Eddie Edwards and Kevin Sullivan and committed assault against two announcers)? You're taking the word of self-serving scum instead of actually addressing the source and the context it was delivered in. If you still feel that Cornette was being homophobic after listening to the actual podcast, I'll hear you out on that, but it's pretty clear that you're going off emotions that others are preying on.
> 
> 
> 
> MLW* I was a typo. My bad.
> 
> I'm glad you can admit that is wrong. So much cooler to see that than the people who defend assault (and the assault of Rich Bocchini, for that matter) versus some comments that were interpreted wrong.
> 
> Nah, Progress were wrong about that. You didn't say they were a massive company, but how can you imply they are more in-tune with the voice of wrestling fans when they're so off in the margins presenting wrestling the way they do? Cornette does not yell at clouds -- he yells at a lack of logic in wrestling. FFS, there is plenty of modern stuff that Corny gives a positive review to -- even on the Double or Nothing show! Can we stop with the exaggerated straw-men and address the criticisms for what they are? Painting him in that light completely ignores the validity of them.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think either is obligated to end if there is discussion going on. I love debating this stuff with people, even if it does sometimes get comically frustrating sometimes.
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you for that wonderful post.
> 
> Look, if Corny actually said something homophobic, I'd be all for educating him. And there probably is a lesson about some of the lingo he used in there. One of my first posts in here was about how "cringy" the word "transvestite" is. I still agree with that. But if you listen to the podcast it is clear he is trying to describe the presentation of the Sonny Kiss gimmick without being offensive. He's clearly not trying to take shots at the identity of the person portraying it -- it's clear he has no clue who that person is, nor does he probably care to. You don't need to be gay to subvert gender binaries in your dress, which is a stereotype that I personally find offensive. I'm also not that peachy keen on wrestlers using the LGBT+ community for comedic value in 2019. That's how many saw the Kiss using his ass as a weapon as he smiles and prances around thing. There's your personal identity, and then there's your professional identity. If a straight wrestler was doing what, for example, Joey Ryan was doing, it would be blasted too.
> 
> It's probably not a work, since Cornette thinks Callihan is trash for hurting Edwards and Sullivan, and I doubt MLW draw attention to such a hot-button thing getting so many people (wrongly) offside. Cornette will be fine with the spitting though, most likely. He used to get spit on every night. Callihan is just acting like a mark back in the day. He's also clearly doing it for his self-serving and condescending purposes, just like the people who "stood up for" Peyton Royce.
> 
> There's hours of evidence of Cornette supporting equal rights, criticizing homophobes, transphobes and bigots -- just like there are hours of him defending a lot of modern wrestling. People won't hear it though, because it pops the narrative they are trying to use to get themselves over and to continue denying that there are any problems with the professional decisions they make.
> 
> To be perfectly honest, it's a bunch of insecure artists proving how insecure they are about their art, all the while screaming "I don't care!" while they try and tear down someone who could help them do it better. It's not about sexuality or equality. It's about dinosaur masks, superkicks, painting yourself different colors and using your penis as a weapon (how progressive). Anyone with half-a-brain knows there was nothing homophobic about this rant or the human being in general. It's a bunch of wrestlers who think wrestling is a "performance" and a private expression of themselves that are getting all tangled into knots, completely forgetting that wrestling is a public display and presentation. If Sonny Kiss, as a character, walked onto a TV show, that performance would be torn apart to shreds by critics as retrograde, stereotypical and distasteful. Can you imagine a cop show with a cop who wears a tiny uniform and uses their ass in fights with perps? Yeah...
> 
> Criticism of Sonny Kiss only becomes problematic when you don't consider Sonny Kiss as an act, but rather a human being. This is not what Cornette was targeting (obviously -- the whole podcast was "first impressions"). Kiss isn't out there to be a human being. He's out there to be a professional athlete on a wrestling program. Allegedly. Why would anyone think Cornette gave two shits about the human being before or outside that presentation is beyond me, other than it being a convenient tool for slander and furthering a personal agenda.


No Progress were far from wrong. He suggested that the promoter of their show should be hung (can't remember the reason but it was something dumb as fuck). So yeah they are right calling him an old man yelling at a cloud cause he gets angry as fuck over stupid shit. Maybe if he grew the fuck up I would listen to his other points. Cornette has rage issues and when he is biased towards something he is far from logical. Also his comments were out of order and he should apologize. Sami is wrong too for what he did, probs even more so because Cornette being a cunt is not a shock anymore.


----------



## looper007

The Wood has a bit of a Woody for defending old man Cornette doesn't he lol.


----------



## The Wood

Beatles123 said:


> I'm going by his actual words, Wood. No one is telling me what to think. I know what he said and i've already told you an easy-ass way he could have made his point (which I disagree with) and avoided all of this. He didn't do that. He didn't even THINK of doing that. Therefore now he must incure the negative repercussions, even if it means getting spat on by OTHER less than savory people because THERE WAS ONLY ONE WAY PEOPLE WERE GOING TO TAKE IT. You can't play like that in 2019, and it's funny how people are using his being liberal as an excuse for the fact he should know better. it's akin to saying "I'm not racist, I have black friends!" - If he is such a proud progressive, he ought to do a better job with understanding what not to say.
> 
> "I think Sonny could have maybe been presented a little better." - BOOM! Right there, short, sweet, to the point! Not "Who is he, this transgender who looked fresh out of the drag show?" (Yes, im paraphrasing but i've heard his quote.) You can't tell me he doesn't have some issues to work through if he calls that being progressive. Further, if he has a problem with Sonny shaking his ass, tough shit. It's not a gimmick. It's him going out there and being himself, in the ring. Same as anyone else. The fact Cornette thinks that therefore is something thats beneath him and HIS VISION of what wrestling should be IS in my eyes homophobic in nature. That's my stance and it's a lot of other people's stance as well. Jim needs to just bow out, admit it isn't something he knows diddly dick about and move on. In stead we have to hear about how bad Joey Ryan is to make his own actions seem less moronic.
> 
> No! I DON'T forgive him. I'm not going to spit on him or say he deserves it, but there are people that would do even worse, and unless he moves on the right way someone just might. Not that I'd endorse it.
> 
> Edit: By the way, where do you get off telling me what is and isn't homophobic? Not to be mean, but you just said "Anyone with half a brain" would essentially agree with you. Well I guess I can ride the short bus in your view, eh?


You weren't going by his actual words -- you admitted that yourself, only actually reading them quite a bit into the conversation. Have you listened to the context of them yet? Because the way they are transcribed completely changes them (like when he was quoted as being sexist for suggesting that the women shouldn't take giants bumps). He did think of trying to convey what he was actually trying to get across -- because you can hear him pause and prognosticate over his wording. When he says "Here comes Sonny Kiss, who apparently got off his day job off the drag show at the fucking Tropicana. And -- I -- ah, don't know -- they're not explaining any of this!" and links it directly to the small child wrestling, and the guy in the dinosaur mask, and the "transvestite, or exotico as they would say in Mexico," he clearly doesn't know *what* words to use, and is also trying to avoid using it as a slur and to place it in wrestling context. This has been interpreted as a willful slur because it lacks context and because some people have stated that it was intended as such. 

There are way more than the way you're alluding to people taking it. That's why we're actually having this conversation right now, lol. That's why LGBTQ+ fans of Cornette are coming out and saying "Hey, I heard nothing wrong here." It's CLEARLY not one way or the highway. I genuinely would like to hear your opinion after you've actually listened to it. That being said, I don't expect you to listen to it -- if it's going to bother you, maybe you shouldn't. But maybe just keep in mind that people do seem to be taking Cornette's comments *way* out of context, just as they did Meltzer's. 

For example, Cornette did NOT mention gender in regards to Sonny Kiss like you said he did. Not once. And he didn't with Nyla Rose (who he actually complimented and didn't say anything negative about, from memory), who he has also been accused of being homophobic with. Cornette never mocked sexuality or gender. He mocked using your ass as a weapon and said he looks like he works a drag queen, which is not something that implies your sexual preoccupation at all. There are plenty of straight drag queens. Should he use drag queen like an insult? I'd agree that probably isn't wise, and he might apologize to drag queens for comparing them to Sonny Kiss on Thursday. But it's very clear that this was in the context of a Battle Royal for a title shot and the fact that professional fighters don't usually present themselves like that for a fight. 



ONE STEP CLOSER TO KOFI MANIA said:


> No Progress were far from wrong. He suggested that the promoter of their show should be hung (can't remember the reason but it was something dumb as fuck). So yeah they are right calling him an old man yelling at a cloud cause he gets angry as fuck over stupid shit. Maybe if he grew the fuck up I would listen to his other points. Cornette has rage issues and when he is biased towards something he is far from logical. Also his comments were out of order and he should apologize. Sami is wrong too for what he did, probs even more so because Cornette being a cunt is not a shock anymore.


That was because he looks like a slob when he's supposed to be presenting a wrestling show. It's a good point. Obviously not the hanging bit (which is obviously not fucking literal, Jesus). It's not stupid shit -- it's part of the wider reason no one takes wrestling half-way seriously anymore and WWE has been able to monopolize for so long, and probably will continue to do so if more of the same is offered. 

What isn't he logical about? What criticism of Double or Nothing would you say is illogical? 



looper007 said:


> The Wood has a bit of a Woody for defending old man Cornette doesn't he lol.


Absolutely. It's a lot of fun. I'm a massive fan of Cornette, because he managed to articulate what I hate about WWE so effectively, and he won me over after years of just believing the myth that his mind is too old school. He's right on the money with so much. It's also incredibly frustrating to see that myth perpetuated and people just...believe it. Gah! Say things enough times and they become true, right?


----------



## Beatles123

The Wood said:


> You weren't going by his actual words -- you admitted that yourself, only actually reading them quite a bit into the conversation. Have you listened to the context of them yet? Because the way they are transcribed completely changes them (like when he was quoted as being sexist for suggesting that the women shouldn't take giants bumps). He did think of trying to convey what he was actually trying to get across -- because you can hear him pause and prognosticate over his wording. When he says "Here comes Sonny Kiss, who apparently got off his day job off the drag show at the fucking Tropicana. And -- I -- ah, don't know -- they're not explaining any of this!" and links it directly to the small child wrestling, and the guy in the dinosaur mask, and the "transvestite, or exotico as they would say in Mexico," he clearly doesn't know *what* words to use, and is also trying to avoid using it as a slur and to place it in wrestling context. This has been interpreted as a willful slur because it lacks context and because some people have stated that it was intended as such.
> 
> There are way more than the way you're alluding to people taking it. That's why we're actually having this conversation right now, lol. That's why LGBTQ+ fans of Cornette are coming out and saying "Hey, I heard nothing wrong here." It's CLEARLY not one way or the highway. I genuinely would like to hear your opinion after you've actually listened to it. That being said, I don't expect you to listen to it -- if it's going to bother you, maybe you shouldn't. But maybe just keep in mind that people do seem to be taking Cornette's comments *way* out of context, just as they did Meltzer's.
> 
> For example, Cornette did NOT mention gender in regards to Sonny Kiss like you said he did. Not once. And he didn't with Nyla Rose (who he actually complimented and didn't say anything negative about, from memory), who he has also been accused of being homophobic with. Cornette never mocked sexuality or gender. He mocked using your ass as a weapon and said he looks like he works a drag queen, which is not something that implies your sexual preoccupation at all. There are plenty of straight drag queens. Should he use drag queen like an insult? I'd agree that probably isn't wise, and he might apologize to drag queens for comparing them to Sonny Kiss on Thursday. But it's very clear that this was in the context of a Battle Royal for a title shot and the fact that professional fighters don't usually present themselves like that for a fight.
> 
> 
> 
> That was because he looks like a slob when he's supposed to be presenting a wrestling show. It's a good point. Obviously not the hanging bit (which is obviously not fucking literal, Jesus). It's not stupid shit -- it's part of the wider reason no one takes wrestling half-way seriously anymore and WWE has been able to monopolize for so long, and probably will continue to do so if more of the same is offered.
> 
> What isn't he logical about? What criticism of Double or Nothing would you say is illogical?
> 
> 
> 
> Absolutely. It's a lot of fun. I'm a massive fan of Cornette, because he managed to articulate what I hate about WWE so effectively, and he won me over after years of just believing the myth that his mind is too old school. He's right on the money with so much. It's also incredibly frustrating to see that myth perpetuated and people just...believe it. Gah! Say things enough times and they become true, right?


Don't you try to spin thia like most people are in his favor! NOT ME or many of my friends. Maybe we're both guilty of being in social bubbles on this issue. 

Further, I DID LISTEN TO WHAT HE SAID! WHY DO YOU THINK I TOLD YOU "I know his full quote"?! He might have sounded that way to uou. NOT to me!! and I reserve the right to be pissed off about it!

Christ, how are we even at odds over it? HE SHOULD HAVE SAID IT DIFFERENTLY BUT HE DIDN'T AND HE'S PAYING FOR IT.


----------



## WrestleCircus

I look forward to the day when Jim Cornette's opinions no longer hold any weight within the wrestling community and it's fanbase(s).


----------



## Beatles123

WrestleCircus said:


> I look forward to the day when Jim Cornette's opinions no longer hold any weight within the wrestling community and it's fanbase(s).


HERE HERE! :thecause

This thread is already getting bonkers enough to drive me to drink. Good thing i'm not an alcoholic.....


----------



## The Wood

Beatles123 said:


> Don't you try to spin thia like most people are in his favor! NOT ME or many of my friends. Maybe we're both guilty of being in social bubbles on this issue.
> 
> Further, I DID LISTEN TO WHAT HE SAID! WHY DO YOU THINK I TOLD YOU "I know his full quote"?! He might have sounded that way to uou. NOT to me!! and I reserve the right to be pissed off about it!
> 
> Christ, how are we even at odds over it? HE SHOULD HAVE SAID IT DIFFERENTLY BUT HE DIDN'T AND HE'S PAYING FOR IT.


Maybe we are in bubbles, but I'll take the community that can explain why they're upset and actually seem to be aware of what was said. I do apologize, I thought you hadn't listened because you said earlier that you didn't, and for some reason I thought you had seen his quotes printed somewhere or something. 

Um, I don't know if he's paying for it. Sounds like he's getting a lot more traffic, and it sounds like Sami Callihan might be paying for his assault a lot more. 



Beatles123 said:


> HERE HERE! :thecause
> 
> This thread is already getting bonkers enough to drive me to drink. Good thing i'm not an alcoholic.....


Now imagine if someone took what you said there and spread the opinion that you were mocking alcoholics. "Good thing" you're not an alcoholic, Beatles? What are you trying to say about alcoholics, huh? Beatles hates people who drink, ladies and gentlemen. Everyone should tweet his employer and let them know that Beatles openly mocked alcoholics. We all know one, yet here's this jerk who is so glad to distance himself from them with hate in his voice. If you drink a glass of wine, Beatles thinks he's better than you.


----------



## Beatles123

The Wood said:


> Maybe we are in bubbles, but I'll take the community that can explain why they're upset and actually seem to be aware of what was said. I do apologize, I thought you hadn't listened because you said earlier that you didn't, and for some reason I thought you had seen his quotes printed somewhere or something.
> 
> Um, I don't know if he's paying for it. Sounds like he's getting a lot more traffic, and it sounds like Sami Callihan might be paying for his assault a lot more.
> 
> 
> 
> Now imagine if someone took what you said there and spread the opinion that you were mocking alcoholics. "Good thing" you're not an alcoholic, Beatles? What are you trying to say about alcoholics, huh? Beatles hates people who drink, ladies and gentlemen. Everyone should tweet his employer and let them know that Beatles openly mocked alcoholics. We all know one, yet here's this jerk who is so glad to distance himself from them with hate in his voice. If you drink a glass of wine, Beatles thinks he's better than you.


If someone thought that, then its my bad and id accept that and make amends. :shrug


----------



## Terminus




----------



## Terminus

I enjoy Cornette's stories as some of them are classic. I also enjoy his verbal abuse of Vince Russo and that Buck teeth fuck that produces shitty looking WWE shows. With that said like Vince, wrestling and more importantly the audience, has clearly passed him by.


----------



## Arktik

Beatles123 said:


> If someone thought that, then its my bad and id accept that and make amends. :shrug


and with that said, Jim Cornette apologized to Sonny Kiss on his podcast today. He clarified that he did not intend to insult him for his sexual orientation or gender identity. He only meant to bury play wrestlers doing silly play wrestling spots.


----------



## Beatles123

Arktik said:


> and with that said, Jim Cornette apologized to Sonny Kiss on his podcast today. He clarified that he did not intend to insult him for his sexual orientation or gender identity. He only meant to bury play wrestlers doing silly play wrestling spots.


Thank god. Even if i disagree with his assessment of Sonny, It was all he needed to do. fpalm


----------



## Arktik

Beatles123 said:


> Thank god. Even if i disagree with his assessment of Sonny, It was all he needed to do. fpalm


He clearly never meant to insult him based on his sexual orientation or gender identity. He used very outdated and clumsy language to describe Sonny Kiss because he's an old man from Kentucky. Cornette then went on to compare Sonny to Adrian Street and said that he didn't even mind the spot, so long as it would make sense as an attempt to win the match.


----------



## Beatles123

Arktik said:


> He clearly never meant to insult him based on his sexual orientation or gender identity. He used very outdated and clumsy language to describe Sonny Kiss because he's an old man from Kentucky. Cornette then went on to compare Sonny to Adrian Street and said that he didn't even mind the spot, so long as it would make sense as an attempt to win the match.


It wasn't clear to I or a lot of people. As long as he admitted it was wrong im good.


----------



## LIL' WINNING FOOT

The fucking state of pro wrestling where tame comments like Cornette become perceived as an "outcry of epic proportions". :maury

Unreal. Personally, I wouldn't have apologized (especially if he didn't intend to be hateful or exclusive, which he wants) but I understand why he had to. Thankfully, people who were "so outraged" can move on to the next incident they'll care to be outraged about.


----------



## Beatles123

WINNING said:


> The fucking state of pro wrestling where tame comments like Cornette become perceived as an "outcry of epic proportions". :maury
> 
> Unreal. Personally, I wouldn't have apologized (especially if he didn't intend to be hateful or exclusive, which he wants) but I understand why he had to. Thankfully, people who were "so outraged" can move on to the next incident they'll care to be outraged about.


:shrug I said it was stupid to say and that he needs to take it back. He has, so all is well. I still disagree with him about Sonny but thats just because he's an old fogy. Nothing to be mad at about that.


----------



## Arktik

WINNING said:


> The fucking state of pro wrestling where tame comments like Cornette become perceived as an "outcry of epic proportions". :maury
> 
> Unreal. Personally, I wouldn't have apologized (especially if he didn't intend to be hateful or exclusive, which he wants) but I understand why he had to. Thankfully, people who were "so outraged" can move on to the next incident they'll care to be outraged about.


The overwhelming majority of the people who were upset just read about it on a forum or dirtsheet and didn't actually listen to his podcast, because it was quite obvious he was not being homophobic or transphobic.

I love that he took the time to blister Joey Ryan for trying to jump aboard the outrage train.


----------



## Beatles123

Arktik said:


> The overwhelming majority of the people who were upset just read about it on a forum or dirtsheet and didn't actually listen to his podcast, because it was quite obvious he was not being homophobic or transphobic.
> 
> I love that he took the time to blister Joey Ryan for trying to jump aboard the outrage train.


This is where i take issue. It was not "Obvious". Don't downplay people's right to be pissed at it, as I was as well and I don't regret it. Not one bit.


----------



## LIL' WINNING FOOT

Arktik said:


> The overwhelming majority of the people who were upset just read about it on a forum or dirtsheet and didn't actually listen to his podcast, because it was quite obvious he was not being homophobic or transphobic.
> 
> I love that he took the time to blister Joey Ryan for trying to jump aboard the outrage train.


That's society today.

Anyone who uses context and common sense and doesn't just jump on the hivemind stoked by fake "moral outrage" could see that Cornette didn't mean to be hateful or "homophobic/transphobic" or whatever empty words people use to justify their shitty life.

I disagree with Cornette with plenty of things and he's simply wrong when he states them but this isn't one of those times.

And good, fuck Joey Ryan. He's an absolute creep using his crutch of a gimmick to get away with being mediocre and display his utter bullshit. Anyone who rips on him can't be all bad.


----------



## Beatles123

WINNING said:


> That's society today.
> 
> *Anyone who uses context and common sense and doesn't just jump on the hivemind stoked by fake "moral outrage" could see that Cornette didn't mean to be hateful or "homophobic/transphobic" or whatever empty words people use to justify their shitty life.
> *
> I disagree with Cornette with plenty of things and he's simply wrong when he states them but this isn't one of those times.
> 
> And good, fuck Joey Ryan. He's an absolute creep using his crutch of a gimmick to get away with being mediocre and display his utter bullshit. Anyone who rips on him can't be all bad.


:taker Really? Cause uh...here I am.


----------



## LIL' WINNING FOOT

Beatles123 said:


> :taker Really? Cause uh...here I am.


Dude, knock it off. 

You have a right to your opinion and express it as such as do I. You think Cornette was wrong for what he _apparently_ said or meant and that the piling on him is "what he deserved". I'm saying Cornette didn't even say what people *think* he meant and that the outrage mob is just looking to ruin/"cancel" someone they disagree with.

Shit like that is what is going to prevent AEW for succeeding further when people are going to try and gatekeep what fans should be for the company. It's ridiculous and a major concern.


----------



## Tag89

imagine being such a pathetic excuse for a human being that you a) spit on someone

b) you spit on an old man because you're frothy about some comments he made on his own podcast (lol)

and then c) you brag about it

just lol


----------



## BulletClubFangirl

I'm used to seeing online lynch mobs. Bitching about SJW's might be a tired subject but now we're at a point where people excuse and encourage violence towards others for violating their PC sensibilities. It's gone from punching a nazi to spitting on an old liberal man for saying transvestite and not liking a wrestler who happens to be gay even though he supports gay rights.


----------



## Arktik

BulletClubFangirl said:


> I'm used to seeing online lynch mobs. Bitching about SJW's might be a tired subject but now we're at a point where people excuse and encourage violence towards others for violating their PC sensibilities. It's gone from punching a nazi to spitting on an old liberal man for saying transvestite and not liking a wrestler who happens to be gay even though he supports gay rights.


This is such an ahistorical opinion it's not even funny. Human beings have used violence and censorship to restrict opinions they do not like for all of recorded human history. This is neither new or unique to the left side of the political spectrum. This has nothing to do with political correctness or "SJWs". It has to do with fundamental human nature. Humans do not like it when other humans hold opinions that disagree with their own and if those beliefs are strongly held or if the person is naturally aggressive this is how it manifests.


----------



## yeahbaby!

Arktik said:


> This is such an ahistorical opinion it's not even funny. Human beings have used violence and censorship to restrict opinions they do not like for all of recorded human history. This is neither new or unique to the left side of the political spectrum. This has nothing to do with political correctness or "SJWs". It has to do with fundamental human nature. Humans do not like it when other humans hold opinions that disagree with their own and if those beliefs are strongly held or if the person is naturally aggressive this is how it manifests.


Good post. To add to that, especially when a movement of such takes form with mob mentality. Mob mentality is pretty terrible most times and it brings out the absolute worst in people.



> "A group of people will often engage in actions that are contrary to the private moral standards of each individual in that group, sweeping otherwise decent individuals into 'mobs' that commit looting, vandalism, even physical brutality." Some of the apparent causes of mob mentality are well understood


----------



## BulletClubFangirl

Arktik said:


> This is such an ahistorical opinion it's not even funny. Human beings have used violence and censorship to restrict opinions they do not like for all of recorded human history. This is neither new or unique to the left side of the political spectrum. This has nothing to do with political correctness or "SJWs". It has to do with fundamental human nature. Humans do not like it when other humans hold opinions that disagree with their own and if those beliefs are strongly held or if the person is naturally aggressive this is how it manifests.


I'm aware of our nature but our modern civilised society should be held to higher standards, especially decades removed from segregation. In my lifetime I've never seen such casual violence encouraged by so many people as I have in recent years. Of course enacting violence over differing opinions or offenses isn't exclusive to SJW's on the left but it comes from them more than anyone these days, at least in the west. 

Society manages to crack down on it a lot more effectively too when it's coming from the right. I'm glad they pressured the proud boys into disbanding for example but I wish they'd do half as good of a job when it comes to groups like antifa. I don't see tweets popping up all the time with thousands of likes encouraging violence towards the left like I do against the right. I don't see TV shows telling viewers that it's okay to punch far left people either. It's hard to even be a centrist and not notice how slanted the violence is towards one side.


----------



## Arktik

BulletClubFangirl said:


> I'm aware of our nature but our modern civilised society should be held to higher standards, especially decades removed from segregation. In my lifetime I've never seen such casual violence encouraged by so many people as I have in recent years. Of course enacting violence over differing opinions or offenses isn't exclusive to SJW's on the left but it comes from them more than anyone these days, at least in the west.
> 
> Society manages to crack down on it a lot more effectively too when it's coming from the right. I'm glad they pressured the proud boys into disbanding for example but I wish they'd do half as good of a job when it comes to groups like antifa. I don't see tweets popping up all the time with thousands of likes encouraging violence towards the left like I do against the right. I don't see TV shows telling viewers that it's okay to punch far left people either. It's hard to even be a centrist and not notice how slanted the violence is towards one side.


One, this is also not even close to being accurate. Right wing political violence is far more common and deadly than from the left.

Secondly, this is not really the thread or forum for this.


----------



## BulletClubFangirl

Arktik said:


> One, this is also not even close to being accurate. Right wing political violence is far more common and deadly than from the left.
> 
> Secondly, this is not really the thread or forum for this.


It is. I said casual violence which obviously refers to stuff like assault and the number of people who openly support it. If we're factoring in terrorists with political motives then it's definitely coming from the right side much more often and it's obviously much deadlier than casual violence although I never disputed that. The important distinctions to make is that there are far less people committing these heinous acts and far less people who support it when compared to casual violence. That should go without saying. Also there have been a number of left wing terrorists too in the last year or so but I'll still concede that it comes from the right much more often if there's a political motive at all. 

Fair enough. I try not to get too political in wrestling threads or in general for that matter but the spitting incident and the reactions to it sort of begged the discussion. Everyone's probably sick of it by now though so I'm happy to drop it.


----------



## LIL' WINNING FOOT

Arktik said:


> One, this is also not even close to being accurate. Right wing political violence is far more common and deadly than from the left.
> 
> Secondly, this is not really the thread or forum for this.


Not in today's Western climate and history around the world would disagree somewhat as well.

But I agree, we should end the political talk here.


----------



## Beatles123

WINNING said:


> Dude, knock it off.
> 
> You have a right to your opinion and express it as such as do I. You think Cornette was wrong for what he _apparently_ said or meant and that the piling on him is "what he deserved". I'm saying Cornette didn't even say what people *think* he meant and that the outrage mob is just looking to ruin/"cancel" someone they disagree with.
> 
> Shit like that is what is going to prevent AEW for succeeding further when people are going to try and gatekeep what fans should be for the company. It's ridiculous and a major concern.


You can disagree with the backlash, but saying people like me are just ignoring the obvious is undermining MY right to be angry. Thats not cool. At least, thats how it appeared. If you meant it another way, fine.


----------



## LIL' WINNING FOOT

Beatles123 said:


> You can disagree with the backlash, but saying people like me are just ignoring the obvious is undermining MY right to be angry. Thats not cool. At least, thats how it appeared. If you meant it another way, fine.


No, it isn't. 

That's you taking it to be something that it isn't. That's not my issue. This is where context is important and where listening comprehension is vital. If you listened to what Cornette said and the tone and cadence of it, there was no hate or spite detected anywhere. It was more confusion of anything and even carefulness of how to address Sonny in that regard (despite saying it anyway).

You can be upset. No one is saying you can't. You have every right to choose so. However, ultimately that is a choice solely on your discretion. Nobody forced you to feel that way and doesn't reflect on the statement directly.


----------



## Beatles123

WINNING said:


> No, it isn't.
> 
> That's you taking it to be something that it isn't. That's not my issue. This is where context is important and where listening comprehension is vital. If you listened to what Cornette said and the tone and cadence of it, there was no hate or spite detected anywhere. It was more confusion of anything and even carefulness of how to address Sonny in that regard (despite saying it anyway).
> 
> You can be upset. No one is saying you can't. You have every right to choose so. However, ultimately that is a choice solely on your discretion. Nobody forced you to feel that way and doesn't reflect on the statement directly.


Its the idea that if one is upset, well they just listened to it wrong or didn't understand well that I take issue with. I heard what he said and how he said it and i still think it was a dumb and offensive way to say what his point was, so what then? Im just somehow not as quick on the draw as the rest of you? No! Further, I wasn't the only one either. 

To say that im "Jumping on the hate train" is wrong, and I resent that.


----------



## The Raw Smackdown

Me in this thread reading the arguments..


----------



## LIL' WINNING FOOT

Beatles123 said:


> Its the idea that if one is upset, well they just listened to it wrong or didn't understand well that I take issue with. I heard what he said and how he said it and i still think it was a dumb and offensive way to say what his point was, so what then? Im just somehow not as quick on the draw as the rest of you? No! Further, I wasn't the only one either.
> 
> To say that im "Jumping on the hate train" is wrong, and I resent that.


Like I said and am going to repeat once again, that's your prerogative. It's just not rooted to what the actual context of what he said. If you feel how you feel, then, once again, that's the choice you make and you are right to do so. Doesn't mean everyone else who heard that feels the same way.


----------



## Beatles123

WINNING said:


> Like I said and am going to repeat once again, that's your prerogative. It's just not rooted to what the actual context of what he said. If you feel how you feel, then, once again, that's the choice you make and you are right to do so. Doesn't mean everyone else who heard that feels the same way.


Well, if its my right to be angry, then all im saying is don't act like anyone who DID take issue with this is just uneducated on the matter. Not all of us are hating just to hate. In fact i've spent countless posts nor detailing why i think it was stupid and what i would have said. I even said that since he apologized, Im good. You bet your ass I had a problem with it though, and I don't regret it either.


----------



## LIL' WINNING FOOT

Beatles123 said:


> Well, if its my right to be angry, then all im saying is don't act like anyone who DID take issue with this is just uneducated on the matter. Not all of us are hating just to hate. In fact i've spent countless posts nor detailing why i think it was stupid and what i would have said. I even said that since he apologized, Im good. You bet your ass I had a problem with it though, and I don't regret it either.


Now you're putting words in my post that I didn't type or even imply. Stop.

If that is the perspective you choose to take, then that's your *choice* and that's fine. That doesn't reflect on the reality of the incident initially, regardless.


----------



## Beatles123

WINNING said:


> Now you're putting words in my post that I didn't type or even imply. Stop.
> 
> If that is the perspective you choose to take, then that's your *choice* and that's fine. That doesn't reflect on the reality of the incident initially, regardless.


In my defense i told you if that wasnt what you meant I was sorry :shrug


----------



## The Wood

Arktik said:


> This is such an ahistorical opinion it's not even funny. Human beings have used violence and censorship to restrict opinions they do not like for all of recorded human history. This is neither new or unique to the left side of the political spectrum. This has nothing to do with political correctness or "SJWs". It has to do with fundamental human nature. Humans do not like it when other humans hold opinions that disagree with their own and if those beliefs are strongly held or if the person is naturally aggressive this is how it manifests.


Awesome post. This isn't about politics. Cornette read an email from one of his fans from the LGBT+ community about concerns that he'd be chased off. It's not about the "PC" or "SJWs." This really does stem from wrestlers not liking their wrestling critiqued. 



WINNING said:


> No, it isn't.
> 
> That's you taking it to be something that it isn't. That's not my issue. This is where context is important and where listening comprehension is vital. If you listened to what Cornette said and the tone and cadence of it, there was no hate or spite detected anywhere. It was more confusion of anything and even carefulness of how to address Sonny in that regard (despite saying it anyway).
> 
> You can be upset. No one is saying you can't. You have every right to choose so. However, ultimately that is a choice solely on your discretion. Nobody forced you to feel that way and doesn't reflect on the statement directly.


You can't help what upsets you and what doesn't sometimes. You're right in saying that Beatles has a right to be upset. It's just a case of whether or not the supporting evidence is there to make a "Cornette is a bigot" argument. It clearly isn't. 



Beatles123 said:


> Its the idea that if one is upset, well they just listened to it wrong or didn't understand well that I take issue with. I heard what he said and how he said it and i still think it was a dumb and offensive way to say what his point was, so what then? Im just somehow not as quick on the draw as the rest of you? No! Further, I wasn't the only one either.
> 
> To say that im "Jumping on the hate train" is wrong, and I resent that.


That is most people criticizing this though, Beatles. That was you until a little of he way in. I read people saying that he was transphobic towards Nyla Rose. How the FUCK people got anything like that from anything Corny said is beyond me. I still don't know what was homophobic about it, since drag, cross-dressing, transvestism -- whatever you want to call it -- isn't a gay preoccupation. It was clearly a smear campaign led by people who either didn't listen to the podcast or did and thought they would try and use it to hurt someone they didn't like. 

Anyway, it turns out it's likely backfired, as Cornette did his biggest numbers and might even break them again as well as coming up on the right side of history.


----------



## Beatles123

The Wood said:


> Anyway, it turns out it's likely backfired, as Cornette did his biggest numbers and might even break them again as well as coming up on the right side of history.


Yup. The biggest negative for me out of all of this. Corny is still a douche and there are far better people to lend an ear to. Waste of time every single cast except when harping on Russo. Hard pass before and after this. 

But as i said.........I won't de-platform him. I just don't think it's deserved at all, but yall do you. I still say he's an antiquated dinosaur and so, quite thankfully, do most others to my knowledge.

His latest MLW was almost unbearably bad. (Not Alex Marvez level though.)

Now, hopefully we can put all this stupid nonsense behind us as I've not had one single incident in wrestling within the last few years thats made me lose more faith in this community. :fuck


and if I have to hear anyone tell me something is or isn't "CLEARLY" something, ONE. MORE. GOD. DAMNED. TIME. :gtfo



This whole saga has probably shortened my life ten years. Not that anyone gives a shit. Don't think I don't see through the patronizing done by a few of you. Damn right I had a right to be upset. It's a shame none of you understand why. :fuckthis


----------



## IronMan8

I don't understand. Did Cornette insinuate anything _negative_ about transvestites, or did he merely comment objectively about someone's appearance during an appearance-based art in order to criticise the lack of story spelled out for non-Indy viewers?


----------



## Ghost Lantern

It's entertaining to me...this forum....so many "experts"

Cornette is right 98% of the time....but you all know better lol......random internet posters are smarter than Jim....lol

Look I understand I get things wrong a lot.....but Jim's pretty spot on most of the time.


----------



## IronMan8

Beatles123 said:


> Its the idea that if one is upset, well they just listened to it wrong or didn't understand well that I take issue with. I heard what he said and how he said it and i still think it was a dumb and offensive way to say what his point was, so what then? Im just somehow not as quick on the draw as the rest of you? No! Further, I wasn't the only one either.
> 
> To say that im "Jumping on the hate train" is wrong, and I resent that.


I need to remove any hint of emotion and coldly apply logic to explain this, so remove yourself from this equation:

Let's say someone is a witness to a car jacking by a person wearing a mask. They describe the criminal as being black. Later, video footage reveals he wasn't black. 

The witness' initial interpretation doesn't matter, his initial interpretation was objectively incorrect.

In the same way, it's objectively true that yourself and others have "listened to it wrong", which is not to undermine your initial interpretation at all, just a call for an updated interpretation.

I think the reason why so many people interpret "bigotry" in increasingly finer detail is because in today's culture we're _heavily primed_ to interpret negativity in any comment about a triggered topic. 

That's all it is; it's not a reflection on you.

We're culturally primed for our ears to prick up whenever we hear the word "transvestite" and instantly be on the hunt to squash any negativity associated with the comment, even when there is none.

That's what you did.


----------



## The Wood

IronMan8 said:


> I don't understand. Did Cornette insinuate anything _negative_ about transvestites, or did he merely comment objectively about someone's appearance during an appearance-based art in order to criticise the lack of story spelled out for non-Indy viewers?


He didn't say anything negative about transvestites. My favorite in his most recent podcast was when he said if he went to a drag show and got wrestling, he'd be pissed off then too. 



Greenlawler said:


> It's entertaining to me...this forum....so many "experts"
> 
> Cornette is right 98% of the time....but you all know better lol......random internet posters are smarter than Jim....lol
> 
> Look I understand I get things wrong a lot.....but Jim's pretty spot on most of the time.


He won me over a few years ago. Believing the internet myth that he's out of touch or whatever was such a silly thing to do. The guy is a damn savant.


----------



## Beatles123

IronMan8 said:


> I need to remove any hint of emotion and coldly apply logic to explain this, so remove yourself from this equation:
> 
> Let's say someone is a witness to a car jacking by a person wearing a mask. They describe the criminal as being black. Later, video footage reveals he wasn't black.
> 
> The witness' initial interpretation doesn't matter, his initial interpretation was objectively incorrect.
> 
> In the same way, it's objectively true that yourself and others have "listened to it wrong", which is not to undermine your initial interpretation at all, just a call for an updated interpretation.
> 
> I think the reason why so many people interpret "bigotry" in increasingly finer detail is because in today's culture we're _heavily primed_ to interpret negativity in any comment about a triggered topic.
> 
> That's all it is; it's not a reflection on you.
> 
> We're culturally primed for our ears to prick up whenever we hear the word "transvestite" and instantly be on the hunt to squash any negativity associated with the comment, even when there is none.
> 
> That's what you did.


It is absolutely not what I did.

Cornette said something fucking stupid to a lot of us THAT COULD HAVE EASILY BEEN AVOIDED! Fuck sake, in stead of trying to give me some loophole explaining the mentality. just admit that you aren't offended by the same things I am.

Christ I am really beginning to loath this "debate"!



Greenlawler said:


> It's entertaining to me...this forum....so many "experts"
> 
> Cornette is right 98% of the time....but you all know better lol......random internet posters are smarter than Jim....lol
> 
> Look I understand I get things wrong a lot.....but Jim's pretty spot on most of the time.


I don't have a problem with you liking Cornette, but the overall opinion you and @The Wood ; are presenting here can go straight to hell. I have heard wrestling philosophy from MANY in the industry to formulate my opinions and im no more an "expert" than you OR Wood, so where do you get off talking to me like that? All that said, I'm PROUD of my wrestling knowledge and I could book RINGS around most of these old geezers any day of the week, at LEAST Russo at bare minimum, vut it's not hard to out-book dogshit. 

When I break into the biz, that's exactly what i'll do, too, and if Corny has anything to say about it if he's alive by then, it'll have little bearing on what I do or think. Thank you VERY much!


----------



## Ghost Lantern

Beatles123 said:


> It is absolutely not what I did.
> 
> Cornette said something fucking stupid to a lot of us THAT COULD HAVE EASILY BEEN AVOIDED! Fuck sake, in stead of trying to give me some loophole explaining the mentality. just admit that you aren't offended by the same things I am.
> 
> Christ I am really beginning to loath this "debate"!
> 
> I don't have a problem with you liking Cornette, but the overall opinion you and @The Wood ; are presenting here can go straight to hell. I have heard wrestling philosophy from MANY in the industry to formulate my opinions and im no more an "expert" than you OR Wood, so where do yo get off talking to me like that? I'm PROUD of my wrestling knowledge and I could book RINGS around most of these old geezers any day of the week, at LEAST Russo at bare minimum, vut it's not hard to outbook dogshit.
> 
> When I break into the biz, that's exactly what i'll do, too, and if Corny has anything to say about it if he's alive by then, it'll have little bearing on what I do or think. Thank you VERY much!


Haha....yep, you do you kid. More power to you. IMO in ten years you will have a different perspective. But till then "great, you do you" If I am wrong so be it. But claiming you could book rings around Cornette? Prove it? I will be alive and waiting.


----------



## Beatles123

Greenlawler said:


> Haha....yep, you do you kid. More power to you. IMO in ten years you will have a different perspective. But till then "great, you do you"


Spare me your condescending backhanded compliments. "Ten years"? As if I've been watching wrestling for a week?!

I've probably forgot more about booking philosophy than most people dare to CONSIDER! You shit on me for daring to say I don't care for Cornette's Ideologies or his overall arrogance and then question MY Ambitions?!

I dunno when this thread turned into such an anti-beatles hoedown, but some of you are working my last nerve. Disagree with me if you want, but I know what I think!

All of you can remember this thread one day when I'm in New Japan and Corny's ranting about me for being "Offensive". The irony it'll be, won't it? :fuckthis


----------



## Ghost Lantern

Beatles123 said:


> Spare me your condescending backhanded compliments. "Ten years"? As if I've been watching wrestling for a week?!
> 
> I've probably forgot more about booking philosophy than most people dare to CONSIDER! You shit on me for daring to say I don't care for Cornette's Ideologies or his overall arrogance and then question MY Ambitions?!
> 
> I dunno when this thread turned into such an anti-beatles hoedown, but some of you are working my last nerve. Disagree with me if you want, but I know what I think!


Haha this is hilarious. Fair play..again you do you......Please I hope you prove me wrong.

I look forward to the time you tell me you worked as a booker.


----------



## Beatles123

Greenlawler said:


> Haha this is hilarious. Fair play..again you do you......Please I hope you prove me wrong.
> 
> I look forward to the time you tell me you worked as a booker.


There's nothing that eats away at my soul more. I made the thread in Rants a few months back for a reason.

Now, enough making this about me and giving this awful thread another bump.


----------



## Bananas

Corny's an out of touch, homophobic sociopath. Don't know why people are still giving him the time of day. And before someone goes on about him not being homophobic because he's a liberal, give Wade Keller a tweet and ask him about some of the names Corny has called him over the years.


----------



## Zappers

Who's Wade Keller?


----------



## Bananas

He's like Meltzer but without the sources. And he's gay.


----------



## .MCH

He told no lies and the only peopled offended by it are the people who remain delusional about AEW. It's nothing more than an overhyped TNA.


----------



## IronMan8

Beatles123 said:


> It is absolutely not what I did.
> 
> Cornette said something fucking stupid to a lot of us THAT COULD HAVE EASILY BEEN AVOIDED! Fuck sake, in stead of trying to give me some loophole explaining the mentality. just admit that you aren't offended by the same things I am.


Could I ask you to let me know why you felt Cornette's comment was bad?

I honestly don't understand a single thing about it that's bad.


----------



## Beatles123

IronMan8 said:


> Could I ask you to let me know why you felt Cornette's comment was bad?
> 
> I honestly don't understand a single thing about it that's bad.


No. I'm quite finished with this discussion respectfully. I've had my perspectives twisted and bastardized enough.


----------



## TD Stinger

βananas;77357806 said:


> *He's like Meltzer but without the sources*. And he's gay.


Can't really say that when he was the one reported Ambrose/Mox leaving WWE in the 1st place because of creative dissatisfaction.

And everything Mox has done and said since leaving WWE has proven Keller right on all accounts.


----------



## Bananas

TD Stinger said:


> Can't really say that when he was the one reported Ambrose/Mox leaving WWE in the 1st place because of creative dissatisfaction.
> 
> And everything Mox has done and said since leaving WWE has proven Keller right on all accounts.


True, true. So I guess he has a source in AEW and NJPW now, but is back to having no one in WWE :brodgers

I'm just goofing btw. I like Keller. Bruce Mitchell at the Torch is great too.


----------



## AEWMoxley

Yikes, how is this thread up to 39 pages?

DON was such a commercial success that it completely destroyed the best numbers of any non-WWE promotion over the last couple of decades, without a single week of TV build, and people are worried about Jim Cornette's comments on the show?


----------



## The Wood

Greenlawler said:


> Haha....yep, you do you kid. More power to you. IMO in ten years you will have a different perspective. But till then "great, you do you" If I am wrong so be it. But claiming you could book rings around Cornette? Prove it? I will be alive and waiting.


There's so much truth in that ten years thing. I used to actually go in for the silly stuff, because "if it's obviously fake, then no one can make fun of it for being fake, right?" and then something just clicks into place and you realize how much of the world is a work and how wrestling is the only thing that doesn't do it anymore. My tastes have completely changed. The word "matured" can seem condescending, but compared to what I used to think, I'd definitely use that word. It's night and day as to how you appreciate wrestling and what it can achieve. 

But Beatles, I do sincerely believe you could definitely book circles around Russo. No doubt. 



βananas;77357740 said:


> Corny's an out of touch, homophobic sociopath. Don't know why people are still giving him the time of day. And before someone goes on about him not being homophobic because he's a liberal, give Wade Keller a tweet and ask him about some of the names Corny has called him over the years.


I've seen this mentioned in the thread twice. I'd honestly like to know more about this. Is there anything to it, or is it another "Corny is transphobic" thing without there being a lick of evidence? He hates Keller, but did he ever insult him for being gay, or did he insult him _and_ Keller's gay? Because I've looked up plenty of Corny bashing Keller videos, and I honestly had no clue Keller was gay. 



AEWMoxley said:


> Yikes, how is this thread up to 39 pages?
> 
> DON was such a commercial success that it completely destroyed the best numbers of any non-WWE promotion over the last couple of decades, without a single week of TV build, and people are worried about Jim Cornette's comments on the show?


Because Cornette is one of the smartest men in wresting, and still one of the best promos, and when he talks people listen. It also irks them, because he finds a way of saying true things (or if you can't accept them as true, you'd have to concede conviction) and it rattles people. Cornette gets about as many downloads a week as AEW got PPV buys.

Lol, "DON was _such_ a commercial success that it _completely destroyed_ the _best_ numbers of _any_ non-WWE promotion over the last couple of decades..."

Let's play. Here is a list of PPVs that did better than 71k buys on PPV within the past 20 years (starting in May '99):

* ECW Hardcore Heaven '99: 75,000

* WCW Slamboree '99: 195,000

* WCW Great American Bash '99: 185,000

* WCW Bash at the Beach: 175,000

* ECW Heat Wave '99: 99,000

* WCW Road Wild '99: 235,000

* ECW Anarchy Rulz '99: 85,000

* WCW Fall Brawl '99: 130,000

* WCW Halloween Havoc '99: 230,000

* ECW November to Remember '99: 80,000

* WCW Mayhem '99: 200,000 

* WCW Starrcade '99: 145,000

* ECW Guilty as Charged '00: 80,000

* WCW Souled Out '00: 115,000

* ECW Living Dangerously '00: 90,000

* WCW Spring Stampede '00: 115,000

* WCW Great American Bash '00: 85,000

* WCW Bash the Beach '00: 100,000

* WCW New Blood Rising '00: 85,000

* WCW Fall Brawl '00: 75,000

* WCW Sin '01: 80,000

Now, I don't know if you want to include the One Night Stand buys in here either. You could make the case for them if you wanted to count All In's buys off ROH and New Japan's money to their interests. I'm not opposed. But let's leave them out. Also, let's pretend that MMA and boxing don't count either, and we're talking about things that strictly market themselves as "wrestling." That's still _21_ different PPVs you have just ignored. Yeah, I get that you probably weren't being literal, but god it's annoying. Also, keep in mind that these events would often happen within a week of each other, sometimes on the same the weekend. January '00 scored 195,000 non-WWF PPV buys, for example. AEW barely got a third of that. Which is still pretty impressive, but it's just a flat-out lie to represent them as smashing numbers that they aren't. 

And what other promotions have _existed_ on PPV in the past 20 years? TNA? ROH? Ha! You would fucking hope they would be doing better.


----------



## deepelemblues

The Wood said:


> I've seen this mentioned in the thread twice. I'd honestly like to know more about this. Is there anything to it, or is it another "Corny is transphobic" thing without there being a lick of evidence? He hates Keller, but did he ever insult him for being gay, or did he insult him _and_ Keller's gay? Because I've looked up plenty of Corny bashing Keller videos, and I honestly had no clue Keller was gay.


Corny is such a sociopath rageaholic that he's the kind of guy who isn't bigoted normally but if he gets worked up enough he can lose all control and start spewing bigoted insults towards the person he's gone off the handle about merely because bigoted insults are an easy target. It's all purely personal and not indicative of his larger beliefs, that's the way Corny is. If they're fat, the fatness can be and probably will be targeted. If they're not, it'll be something else. Gay, rich, whatever they happen to be. When the rageahol saturates his lizard brain all bets are off :cornettefu

Of course this shit is now harder to find than I'm going to work to find it as far as direct quotes, but your Google machine will provide countless examples of people referencing Corny going off on a homophobic tear re: Keller when Keller came out, and also announced he and his partner were going to adopt a son


----------



## Ger

It is pretty sad, that these thread just turned it giving Cornette bad attributes. Taking up that homophobic blame really sucks, especially after the podcast he just made about it.


----------



## LIL' WINNING FOOT

It's because people don't listen to the actual source that is readily available and would rather rely on second (or even third)-hand information off social media to form their conclusions. Once you show them and prove otherwise, emotions get involved.

This goes for most things, not just this particular incident.


----------



## deepelemblues

Social media like this I presume


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/672145692031328256
:cornettefu


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1134617273459773441
:cornettefu

Corny's years-long crusade against Joey Ryan appears to have little ammunition other than "I was bigger than you in wrestling" and ****** jokes


----------



## LIL' WINNING FOOT

Yes, ****** jokes. Such hurt. Much bad. Ban them! :mj4


----------



## The Wood

deepelemblues said:


> Social media like this I presume
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/672145692031328256
> :cornettefu
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1134617273459773441
> :cornettefu
> 
> Corny's years-long crusade against Joey Ryan appears to have little ammunition other than "I was bigger than you in wrestling" and ****** jokes


Joey Ryan is a sexual harassing piece of shit that gets off booking people to lie subservient to him is what I get from the first one. There's a difference between enjoying getting your dick sucked and making people do it. What's at all phobic, in any sense, about the second one? Other than maybe disrespecting people with the job of mopping up the jizz. Someone has to do that and finding work can be tough. But the most phobic thing I see there is the use of that word you used. 



deepelemblues said:


> Corny is such a sociopath rageaholic that he's the kind of guy who isn't bigoted normally but if he gets worked up enough he can lose all control and start spewing bigoted insults towards the person he's gone off the handle about merely because bigoted insults are an easy target. It's all purely personal and not indicative of his larger beliefs, that's the way Corny is. If they're fat, the fatness can be and probably will be targeted. If they're not, it'll be something else. Gay, rich, whatever they happen to be. When the rageahol saturates his lizard brain all bets are off :cornettefu
> 
> Of course this shit is now harder to find than I'm going to work to find it as far as direct quotes, but your Google machine will provide countless examples of people referencing Corny going off on a homophobic tear re: Keller when Keller came out, and also announced he and his partner were going to adopt a son


I do get that things can be hard to track down, but are those references reliable, or more of the same "Corny insulted a show Nyla Rose was on, therefore he must have been transphobic towards her" shit? Did he insult Wade Keller because he was gay, or was Wade Keller insulted and he's gay. No wonder Kevin Spacey thought he could hide behind this shit when he got busted for what he did. 

I'm researching this now. I typed "Jim Cornette Wade Keller homophobic" into Twitter. So far I've got Keller calling Cornette a racist. All I can find are people saying that Cornette said horrible things when Keller came out. I can't find any record of what they are. I've pulled up an open letter Cornette wrote to Keller calling him lying trash. I've also found a commentary on the Cornette/Keller issues, where Bruce Mitchell makes some fucking disgusting insinuations on behalf of the Torch:

http://www.pwbts.com/columns/b081903.html

There's some crazy shit in there. For those who want a content warning, it contains misogyny, violence against women, ableism, and racism. It's laid at the feet of Cornette by Mitchell, but it really isn't coming from Corny. But I still can't find those apparent homophobic comments. It's easy enough to find a a deleted tweet of Joey Ryan mocking child abuse, but for some reason these comments just don't come up.


----------



## IronMan8

I've been listening to Cornette a bit recently due to this thread. He's smarter than I realised.

I'm pretty forgiving of people from previous generations who are a little slow to adapt to society's changing language norms, as long as there's no obvious hate behind their words. Who cares if an old guy makes a joke insinuating being gay as bad? He's old, nobody will follow suit. It doesn't disqualify his opinion.


----------



## Beatles123

The Wood said:


> Because Cornette is one of the smartest men in wresting, and still one of the best promos, and when he talks people listen. It also irks them, because he finds a way of saying true things (or if you can't accept them as true, you'd have to concede conviction) and it rattles people. Cornette gets about as many downloads a week as AEW got PPV buys.r.


Gag me with a spoon.


----------



## BulletClubFangirl

Beatles123 said:


> Gag me with a spoon.


Keep your kinks out of this thread please.


----------



## Beatles123

BulletClubFangirl said:


> Keep your kinks out of this thread please.


:hutz :andre


----------



## Goatfox

Jim Cornette the guy does nothing but talk nonsense, why does his opinion in 2019 even mean anything? 

The guy pretty much hates anything and everything


----------



## YankBastard

Queen of Marks said:


> Called Kenny Omega a slightly better Tom McGee and the Bob Ross of promos. Said the Young Bucks will never draw a dime in mainstream wrestling, Excalibur wearing his mask on commentary makes their company look like a joke. Etc. Etc. Etc.
> 
> 
> I don't know why Cornette can't accept the fact that there's different styles of wrestling. In fact, I think AEW showcasing different styles will give them an edge over WWE. You won't be able to see stars like Havoc on RAW, it makes All Elite unique and helps them stand out.
> 
> 
> Thoughts and opinions???






 (Y)

"Marko Stunt, why is this small child competing in this match?"
"HERE COMES SONNY KISS off his day job at the Drag Show at the Tropicana":laugh::laugh::laugh:


----------



## kingfrass44

The Wood said:


> Lol, this didn’t get people who aren’t fans talking. This was a show that attracted the niche. The people screaming it was the best show ever are the ones furious that Cornette would dare not give it a perfect score. These aren’t casuals, champ.
> 
> 
> 
> Please, he’s broken bread with plenty of people he had beef with. This is just factually not true.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, that’s fucking dumb too. Why do you think this is a “gotcha” moment?


 It's not you who decides casuals or niche


----------



## The Wood

kingfrass44 said:


> The Wood said:
> 
> 
> 
> Lol, this didn’t get people who aren’t fans talking. This was a show that attracted the niche. The people screaming it was the best show ever are the ones furious that Cornette would dare not give it a perfect score. These aren’t casuals, champ.
> 
> 
> 
> Please, he’s broken bread with plenty of people he had beef with. This is just factually not true.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, that’s fucking dumb too. Why do you think this is a “gotcha” moment?
> 
> 
> 
> It's not you who decides casuals or niche
Click to expand...

No, the market dictates that. I simply read it.


----------

