# 2010 Wrestling Observer Awards



## Tony (Jan 17, 2011)

Thanks for the list

Daniel Bryan's the man!


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## FITZ (May 8, 2007)

These awards are a joke with putting MMA guys and wrestlers in the same categories.


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## Yeah1993 (Nov 20, 2008)

> BEST WEEKLY TV SHOW
> 
> 1. RING OF HONOR
> 2. UFC Ultimate Fighter
> 3.* WWE Monday Night Raw*


oh my god has wrestling sucked.


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## reDREDD (Oct 12, 2008)

I dont know, RAW had some decent moments this year,

Cant really say I disagree with any of those categories. Love the way TNA swept several awards.


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## SHIRLEY (Jun 9, 2009)

Pretty much spot on. It's quite funny that Yoshino wasn't even in the PWI500 and WON have him at #3.

It's a shame Bragging Rights got panned. It had my personal MOTY on it.


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## CM Skittle (Jul 30, 2006)

TaylorFitz said:


> These awards are a joke with putting MMA guys and wrestlers in the same categories.


I know! I hate that. And I've never even heard of the person who they said had the best mic skills, CM Punk should have won that. I agree on the feud of the year but that's pretty much it


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## C-Cool (Apr 2, 2010)

Good list. A few comments.

Aldo should have won Best Fighter.

Even if I dislike Sonnen, he was a great talker.

Good work, Kevin Steen and Moxley.

Abyss should have won most overrated, no questions asked. He was overrated by the one thing that matters: management and Hogan.

Rogan? I can deal with the other two, but Rogan? Really? Bad year for commentary, and the worse column should explain why, if you switch Todd with Taz.

Push out Wrestlemania (and push down Death Before Dishonor) with UFC 117 for best PPV.

Switch out Tommy Dreamer with Lockbox Challenge in the Disgusting category.

No getting around those three worst match candidates, no matter what Rob Terry does. Kaitlyn should have NEVER been in a ring. And poor Maxine paid the price for that atrocity.

*Paul Bearer voice* KAAAAAAANE!!!!

Damn right, it's TNA for worst promotion. All the potential in the world, nothing important to show for it. StrikeForce could also be there, for fun.

Finally, Dos Caras Jr.'s 'E career would have been distinctively less awesome without this gimmick. Why? See Alberto Banderas (FCW gimmick) for proof.


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## ZackDanielson (Oct 9, 2009)

John Cena wrestler of the year? really? Bull Fuckin Shit


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## kinofkings 232 (Jun 12, 2006)

wow this list really is bull shit. haha its a good thing its doesnt mean anything to anyone in the buisness.


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## reDREDD (Oct 12, 2008)

John Cena will always be the wrestler of the year. He defines the business.


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## jawbreaker (May 16, 2009)

Fuck yeah Adam Cole.


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## TelkEvolon (Jan 4, 2007)

This is probably one of the best WOA I have seen. There is only a few things I don't agree with, but they make sense.


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## ZackDanielson (Oct 9, 2009)

redeadening said:


> John Cena will always be the wrestler of the year. He defines the business.


If thats the case, the business is going down the shitter


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## JuviJuiceIsLoose (Mar 27, 2009)

ZackDanielson said:


> If thats the case, the business is going down the shitter


Actually, Cena's one of the reasons why the business is staying afloat.


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## BkB Hulk (Jun 27, 2008)

Shirley Crabtree III said:


> Pretty much spot on. It's quite funny that Yoshino wasn't even in the PWI500 and WON have him at #3.
> 
> It's a shame Bragging Rights got panned. It had my personal MOTY on it.


Bryan/Ziggler was good (or even great), but after that the card was total shit. I remember buying the event and feeling afterward like I'd bought a TNA event - majorly ripped off, so I'd agree with Bragging Rights getting third worst.

_WORST PROMOTION OF THE YEAR

1. TNA
(Of note: landslide. Not worth listing the other two.)_

Common sense.


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## McQueen (Jul 17, 2006)

Davey Richards should have won most overrated.


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## XxPunkxX (Dec 30, 2010)

ZackDanielson said:


> John Cena wrestler of the year? really? Bull Fuckin Shit


The Wrestler of the Year award always goes to the guy who puts on the most great matches for the company and makes the most positive impact on the show compared to everyone else. Cena easily wins that catagory, but it can be argued that it was only because WWE focused many of their biggest feuds on Cena.

Love how Edge vs Kane got the award for worst feud. By far the worst feud of the year.

And congrads to TNA on winning the worst promotion award for the fourth straight year.


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## DryBones87 (Apr 1, 2010)

I wonder if Danielson will ever a 5 star rating from Meltzer


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## The Great Maijin (Apr 15, 2003)

I anticipate the list to see what people think and it allways has some bull on it, it kinda feels like pwi when i was kid. More anti TNA bias. Still don't understand why MMA and wrestling are put together and people actually vote on who's a box office draw (something that is more factual than opinionated). 

Okay so
1. Why is Eric Bischoff/Hogan vs Dixie fued up there when shes been off tv so the fued has only produced the barring Hogan from TNA and thats about it?
2. Why is John Cena winning a "Lou Thez and Ric Flair Award"? It should be titled the Hulk Hogan award. 
3. How does a 450 splash ( a move we have seen for over a decade) even get on the list?
4. How did Daniel Bryan win most outstanding wrestler? 
5. How is Randy Orton overrated?
6. How is Michael Cole the worst announcer?
7. How is impact not a better show than one with green rookies?


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## ViolenceIsGolden (May 15, 2009)

Jon Hamm Sandwich said:


> Davey Richards should have won most overrated.


fpalm Yet he's consistently had the best matches on all the shows he's been on in 2010 and he is himself on the mic and tries to do his best to sell his matches and has a lot of fans. He's been one of the only few bright spots left in the indys or maybe all of pro wrestling over the last year.

I could see if you think people overrate all his matches but when you give your all like that for 30 minutes at almost every show it's hard to say he wasn't giving a great performance or at least worthy of no criticism.

Since Meltzer's opinion of a overrated wrestler similar to mine is a big star in the business like when Nash and Hogan won the awards back in the 90's it's just difficult for me to give the award to somebody that loves professional wrestling and is an amazing in ring performer. It's not his fault that people love what he does and blog about it and make youtube videos where they act like they just finished jerking off to his matches with Strong and Black. If you don't like that then address those people but you don't have to try to bait them into responding to you by saying "NO HES AWESOME NOT OVERRATED BEST WRESTLER OF ALL TIMEZ" or something like that.


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## perucho1990 (Oct 15, 2008)

redeadening said:


> I dont know, RAW had some decent moments this year,
> 
> Cant really say I disagree with any of those categories. Love the way TNA swept several awards.


Im surprised Abyss didnt win most overrated, at least Kane gave us good promos during his feud with Taker.


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## Saint Dick (Jan 21, 2006)

I don't feel like Cena had a wrestler of the year worthy 2010 but he is the biggest draw in pro wrestling and that probably has a lot to do with it. 

Sheamus deserved most improved.


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## SuperDuperSonic (Apr 7, 2008)

The Great Maijin said:


> Okay so
> 1. Why is Eric Bischoff/Hogan vs Dixie fued up there when shes been off tv so the fued has only produced the barring Hogan from TNA and thats about it?


Because it's a Dixie Carter feud.



> 2. Why is John Cena winning a "Lou Thez and Ric Flair Award"? It should be titled the Hulk Hogan award.


Because Flair and Thesz are highly regarded as the greatest wrestlers of all-time by those involved with the newsletter.



> 3. How does a 450 splash ( a move we have seen for over a decade) even get on the list?


Because Ricochet makes it look more spectacular.


> 4. How did Daniel Bryan win most outstanding wrestler?


The award is generally for the most consistent wrestler in terms of having great matches. 



> 5. How is Randy Orton overrated?


Some say he is an excellent worker, when in fact most of his matches turn out to be tedious. The matches with Wade Barrett are a great example that Orton is not the kind of wrestler who bring an inferior worker up a notch.



> 6. How is Michael Cole the worst announcer?


Not everyone is a fan of his gimmick.



> 7. How is impact not a better show than one with green rookies?


[/quote]

Ask Russo & Co. Although a simple answer would be that Impact is two hours instead of one.


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## SHIRLEY (Jun 9, 2009)

The Great Maijin said:


> 7. How is impact not a better show than one with green rookies?


The rookie show, at least, has an interesting concept behind it and the entireity of WWE's decent stuff this year spawned from NXT1.

iMPACT, on the other hand, is the worst major TV wrestling show in living memory.


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## musdy (Jun 26, 2007)

Jung/Garcia was a good fight but come on.


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## Burkarl (May 19, 2009)

The Great Maijin said:


> 6. How is Michael Cole the worst announcer?


I know it was in 2011, but he called a Koji Clutch for an Anaconda Vise. He is a great heel, but a horrible anouncer. Show him 10 wrestling moves, and he would know 1 of them.


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## DryBones87 (Apr 1, 2010)

also, where did you get the top 3 from


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## KingCrash (Jul 6, 2007)

kinofkings 232 said:


> wow this list really is bull shit. haha its a good thing its doesnt mean anything to anyone in the buisness.


U MAD, BRO? 

List looks fine to me, nice to see Cole and Steen win, little shocked how much Steen/Generico blew everyone else away.


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## JuviJuiceIsLoose (Mar 27, 2009)

DryBones87 said:


> also, where did you get the top 3 from


You, I don't even remember. I saw someone congratulating Dave Laganna on ROH winning best TV show on Twitter and I just made a quick search which led me to a message board.

Everything's accurate.


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## FITZ (May 8, 2007)

KingCrash said:


> U MAD, BRO?
> 
> List looks fine to me, nice to see Cole and Steen win, little shocked how much Steen/Generico blew everyone else away.


I hate the awards just because of MMA being included. One is a sport and one is a show. I don't have any serious complaints about who won the wrestling only awards. It's just silly when you see MMA fights and wrestling matches being compared. To me it seems a lot like this:

Best Baseball Game Ever
1. Yankees/Red Sox 8/11/07 (just made that up btw)
2. Angles/Giants Game 7 World Series 2002 (also made up)
3. The last game that they played in the movie _Field of Dreams_

Clearly one of those doesn't belong.

And I can't think of any other feud that I would even consider voting feud of the year for other than Steen Generico.


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## TelkEvolon (Jan 4, 2007)

TaylorFitz said:


> Best Baseball Game Ever
> 1. Yankees/Red Sox 8/11/07 (just made that up btw)
> 2. Angles/Giants Game 7 World Series 2002 (also made up)
> 3. The last game that they played in the movie _Field of Dreams_
> ...


LOL. That's a great analogy!

Yeah, Steen vs Generico was easily going to be the top.


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## KingCrash (Jul 6, 2007)

TaylorFitz said:


> And I can't think of any other feud that I would even consider voting feud of the year for other than Steen Generico.


I meant about it blowing away the MMA fights. Wrestling wise I knew it wouldn't be close, Cena/Nexus and Punk/Mysterio both had great starts but fizzled out, and MCMG/Beer Money while great wasn't really a feud at all.


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## Bubz (Jul 19, 2007)

> Best Baseball Game Ever
> 1. Yankees/Red Sox 8/11/07 (just made that up btw)
> 2. Angles/Giants Game 7 World Series 2002 (also made up)
> 3. The last game that they played in the movie Field of Dream


Lol i never really thought about it like that until now, your right though it does'nt make any sense to compare them.


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## Dirk Mantooth (Jul 22, 2006)

Ok, I kind of understand putting Fighters and Wrestlers in the same category for things like good talkers and box office draws (Sonnen deserved it), and comparing how entertaining the TV shows are. But what pisses me off the most is the best booker category. Comparing the act of putting fights together to writing stories with accompanying scripts is simply asinine. The two skills needed to do them are so emphatically different that it makes me rage, hard.


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## SHIRLEY (Jun 9, 2009)

TaylorFitz said:


> And I can't think of any other feud that I would even consider voting feud of the year for other than Steen Generico.


Daniel Bryan vs. Miz/Cole and the whole subsequent Nexus thing?


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## Horselover Fat (May 18, 2006)

TaylorFitz said:


> I hate the awards just because of MMA being included. One is a sport and one is a show. I don't have any serious complaints about who won the wrestling only awards. It's just silly when you see MMA fights and wrestling matches being compared. To me it seems a lot like this:
> 
> Best Baseball Game Ever
> 1. Yankees/Red Sox 8/11/07 (just made that up btw)
> ...


mmas fake


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## Azuran (Feb 17, 2009)

JuviJuiceIsLoose said:


> MOST OVERRATED
> 
> 1. KANE
> 2. Randy Orton
> 3. Abyss


These awards are a joke.



JuviJuiceIsLoose said:


> MOST UNDERRATED
> 
> 1. KAVAL
> 2. Christian
> 3. Evan Bourne


Yup, they are a joke.


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## ViolenceIsGolden (May 15, 2009)

TaylorFitz said:


> I hate the awards just because of MMA being included. One is a sport and one is a show. I don't have any serious complaints about who won the wrestling only awards. It's just silly when you see MMA fights and wrestling matches being compared. To me it seems a lot like this:
> 
> Best Baseball Game Ever
> 1. Yankees/Red Sox 8/11/07 (just made that up btw)
> ...


Just please tell me the Field of Dreams game stands for UFC because in MOST wrestling fans eyes STILL MMA and UFC is not the best shit out there and if something does "not fit this picture" in all of this it should be UFC for being different to a time when these lists used to be exclusive to just pro wrestling.

Look I get that he had Ortiz/Shamrock on this list back in like 2002 for feud of the year but now because this is all the little bitch watches he totally goes balls to the wall to try to fit in UFC fights/events/"promos" when we could care less and he doesn't even put the best fights or the best event or the best promos at that.

No pro wrestling fan takes him serious anymore because of it and NO UFC/MMA fans in existence would even know this award list exists and probably don't take the guy seriously if they actually have heard of him before, which I doubt. So he can get off of UFC/MMA's nuts and start putting only pro wrestling on his awards because there's enough of it to cover if he just finds it on the internet I guess.


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## heyman deciple (Dec 23, 2006)

The Great Maijin said:


> I anticipate the list to see what people think and it allways has some bull on it, it kinda feels like pwi when i was kid. More anti TNA bias. Still don't understand why MMA and wrestling are put together and people actually vote on who's a box office draw (something that is more factual than opinionated).
> 
> Okay so
> 1. Why is Eric Bischoff/Hogan vs Dixie fued up there when shes been off tv so the fued has only produced the barring Hogan from TNA and thats about it?
> ...


1. it lasted at least a couple of weeks maybe longer, maybe that's what made it so bad, no follow through.

2. It's just a name, personally I don't think Cena was the best wrestler this year; Top draw in pro wrestling okay but best wrestler? no.

3. Good question, depends on the status of this person doing it really.

4. Because he is afterall the best wrestler in the world.

5. Personally I thing Orton is awesome but some may feel he's a little generic and bland, IDK.

6. Cole sucks period, plus this whole lead announcer as a heel thing isn't really working. There have been times when Cole himself has seemed confused.

7. Because the show with green rookies has more logic and makes more sense than Impact


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## McQueen (Jul 17, 2006)

ViolenceIsGolden said:


> fpalm Yet he's consistently had the best matches on all the shows he's been on in 2010 and he is himself on the mic and tries to do his best to sell his matches and has a lot of fans. He's been one of the only few bright spots left in the indys or maybe all of pro wrestling over the last year.
> 
> I could see if you think people overrate all his matches but when you give your all like that for 30 minutes at almost every show it's hard to say he wasn't giving a great performance or at least worthy of no criticism.
> 
> Since Meltzer's opinion of a overrated wrestler similar to mine is a big star in the business like when Nash and Hogan won the awards back in the 90's it's just difficult for me to give the award to somebody that loves professional wrestling and is an amazing in ring performer. It's not his fault that people love what he does and blog about it and make youtube videos where they act like they just finished jerking off to his matches with Strong and Black. If you don't like that then address those people but you don't have to try to bait them into responding to you by saying "NO HES AWESOME NOT OVERRATED BEST WRESTLER OF ALL TIMEZ" or something like that.


Yeah and I don't think he's very good. All his matches are the same fucking match over and over to me. And seeing as indy fans these days collectively jerk each other off over Davey Richards matches it stands that I might find the fucking guy vastly overrated.


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## SuperDuperDragon (Jan 12, 2007)

PWG Seven was show of the year, BITCH BETTA RECOGNIZE!


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## reDREDD (Oct 12, 2008)

Orton has become shit. He has not adapted to the face style at all. Which is a damn shame since he was the man as a heel.


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## seancarleton77 (Jul 4, 2006)

At least Davey can wrestle. A guy like Wade Barrett gets praised by the masses and he can barely work better than Hogan in the 90's.


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## The Great Maijin (Apr 15, 2003)

seancarleton77 said:


> At least Davey can wrestle. A guy like Wade Barrett gets praised by the masses and he can barely work better than Hogan in the 90's.


True, the iwc accepts the mediocrity in WWE but TNA can't get away with anything. I still don't see why Cena won the Lou Thez Award. He is the most push not best wrestler in the world. It should be titled "Hulk Hogan" award not Ric Flair/Thez award. I still think its dumb placing MMA and Wrestling in the same category.


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## reDREDD (Oct 12, 2008)

I dont see whats wrong with John Cena.

I mean who on earth would you rank as a better overall top level wrestler?


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## seancarleton77 (Jul 4, 2006)

I like combining MMA & Wrestling, the best draws are always in MMA, so we might as well include some real draws. Sonnen was the second best talker to Steen this year. He's an actual prick though, so it's not hard for Chael.

Suguira is hands down the best wrestler of the year, and I like guys like Shiozaki and Nakamura more than him. But you have to give it to Sugiura, best champion, most great matches, hardest worker. Cena was at the bottome of the top 5 at best as far as being a good worker. He was so boring last year.


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## The REAL MP (Mar 4, 2010)

Yeah but Sugiura didn't draw dick for money last year, and that's really the main goal of PROFESSIONAL wrestling. Which I know drives a lot of people here crazy, but there's nothing you can do about it. I agree with Cena winning.

And to the people complaining about adding MMA to the "Best Draw" category, consider this: Brock's two fights this year drew as many North American PPV buys as WWE's entire year, so there was no question about who was winning that category either.


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## Charmqn (Feb 20, 2005)

I don't see Orton as overrated. He may not be liked by some internet fans, but he goes out there and the crowd eats him up (Huge pops). He goes out and does his job.


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## reDREDD (Oct 12, 2008)

Except he still cant wrestle very well. Or talk. Orton may outpop Cena but Cena pretty much perfected the face main event style and when given enough creative freedom can cut a pretty damn good promo.

Orton is very well liked, but he is very lacking in many areas. Especialky since turning face. He is just too used to the heel main event style.


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## ViolenceIsGolden (May 15, 2009)

Most people myself included found that moment where your thinking to yourself about wrestling and Cena pops in your mind and your breaking your back doing labor and your like WTF am I thinking about Cena for? Then it hits you and you realize this guy is just one big phony telling the kids to be lazy and ask mommy and daddy for some money to buy them a Cena shirt or a Cena dvd and on and on. It's not the mans fault and you really can't blame WWE because he makes them LOTS of money but it's one of the problems with youth today. They cheer on their retarded hero that is charismatic but forced upon us for that exact reason. Look if Tennis, Football, or any sport you could think of was fixed and fake like WWE is wouldn't you think they'd be character driven? Of course they would but WWE takes it too far and brings in guys like Cena for the sole purpose that he has a good look and he's good on interviews and interacting with people. Rather than taking wrestlers and picking the most charismatic ones out of them they literally breed people that are good talkers with muscle bound physiques and teach them how to wrestle.

Now with Davey Richards he's NOT about selling the merchandise or appealing to anybody. He's just there to respect the tradition of pro wrestling before it was just all about the entertainment so if you buy his dvd's that's not the same as buying John Cena merchandise or something like that because your buying the ROH, PWG, and other dvd's because you actually are paying to see WRESTLING. If you don't like wrestling then kudos to you because you keep McMahon in business and UFC from not totally taking over. All you people that do hate it and won't admit it have got to realize that you hate it and stop hating(yes hating) on REAL PROFESSIONAL WRESTLING. You guys with your anti ROH, pro WWE stuff go beyond the norm of just criticism sometimes. If you are criticizing ROH, Davey Richards, or any of the people that work on the indys just stop and get a life. It's never gonna change because ROH and any other indy fed out there will never be able to compete with WWE or keep the fans it has if it moved to a Entertainment direction like WWE or TNA with less wrestling and a more "character selected by writers to be the top guys" driven product because for one they obviously don't have the bank roll WWE has.

If they wanted to do something in a entertainment direction that was different from WWE I tihnk ROH could go more for a ECW style of shows. The problem with that is only a few workers like Steve Corino and a few others seem to get that style of crude fun entertainment and some ROH fan boys want the whole "respect" sports like aspect to stay in tact and have went out of their ways to prevent ROH from every becoming a modern version of ECW with a few tweeks here and there from Heymans ECW in the 90's. While some of the stuff they've been doing in the past has been funny like the Papa Briscoe thing or at times violent like Steen/Generico match overall in most ROH fans eyes and main stream wrestling marks they sterotype ROH as some product with vanilla midgets, nerdy fan boys that buy all the dvd's and ippvs that think Davey Richards is god.

These people couldn't be any wrong about ROH. Like I said there's a lot more to it. Chris Hero and Claudio Castagnoli are well over 6 feet. Kevin Steen is far from a vanilla midget if you took one look at him. They all can cut promos too and are entertaining new guys to enjoy watching who aren't just the WWE green youth movement characters or the TNA bums we see on our tv screens week in week out.

I'm not trying to push ROH or the indys on anybody out there so don't think I am. Like I said a little while back in my post ROH respects the tradition of pro wrestling and it's still not a lost cause like some of you seem to say it is and Jim Cornette is just wasting his time by not giving up on the old days of wrestling in the Southern promotion.

God if I could just go into Vince McMahon, Vince Russo, or any of these people running WWE and TNA and hold them down while I demand they put some wrestling back on my tv and stop making your top stars out of charismatic body builders and start focusing on people like ME and a lot of YOU guys that realize this shit existed at one point even if it took a nap or died somewhere along the lines. I'm just saying that with the internet and old tapes NOTHING is dead anymore and with UFC, pro wrestling as a sport is boxed and is dieing. All we have left now is the entertainment of WWE as out last hope. Stop hoping it succeeds against UFC and just watch UFC already.

The WWE only cares about making money and they don't give a shit about you or me. UFC at least is a legit sport like pro wrestling used to be to some people even if it was tricking people into thinking that or people knew it was fake but respected the wrestlers and the promotions that respected the traditions of wrestling.

WWE is just some strange comedy show that I'm unsure of what the hell it's suppose to be. See in the Attitude era it was too but they pushed the censors and what the parent wanted their kids to be watching on tv. Now it's a comedy hour but "kid friendly" So when you think about it the WWE has had some of the worst wrestling since Vince Jr. took over the company and while he was a great promoter and all that Pro Wrestling has been dieing but evolving behind his back in forms he can't control. National Wrestling Aliance, Late stages of AWA, ECW, Smokey Mountain, Mixed Martial Arts.

Now we got ROH but for some reason people prefer the WWE and their comedy shit that is now "kid friendly" and think a guy like Cena is the best wrestler in the business when he's lucky to be a millionaire and have his job and the fame he has right now. He never busted his ass and earned being called "THE BEST WRESTLER IN THE WORLD" He might be the best SPORTS ENTERTAINER but that's it.

When I look at these poor kids my age on the indy scene busting their asses and knowing theres no way to make any money it almost makes me weep. While people say UFC is a issue with pro wrestling, pro wrestling is killing itself from the inside from every point it's had from it's beginning up until right now. You see Vince McMahons vision of what pro wrestling is has the most influence on wrestling as a whole and how it's viewed so as long as he's about the sports entertainment, mic skills, and all that other stuff and ROH/all other indys and Japan focus on wrestling there will be no room for it in Vince McMahons world of pro wrestling. It's this very shit that angers me to no end. How this man could try to tell people that are pro wrestlers above everything else that they can't wrestle and that they gotta have all these little qualities that make them in Vince's eyes the perfect sports entertainer.

I'm not saying Kaval or Davey Richards or any guy on the indys should be the WWE Champion and not have to pay their dues but when WWE focuses more on sports entertainment it makes it all impossible to happen. Pro wrestling is in a situation that no brainiac genius could figure out the problem it's in right now but pro wrestligns problems are almost big as TNA's problems right now by itself alone.

I just don't wanna see something I love(the indys) die and be stuck either watching WWE forever and nothing else or have to go permanately to UFC and Mixed Martial Arts because I want promos and story lines as well just not the story lines WWE has right now, you know the horrible ones.

In a lot of ways the negativity I put up with most of you guys on these forums and youtube about ROH and other indys makes it seem dead enough as it is. As a fan I'm not satisfied anymore or having any fun. I just feel like shit waiting to see it get better.


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## GOD OF CUNT (Jan 9, 2008)

Man, I realise my definition of what good wrestling is is totally different from the Observer voters' definition of it, but this still managed to surprise me.

No point complaining about it since every publication like this favours this over that and so on (it's the same in most forms of entertainment, music probably being the best comparison), but some of these choices really seem baffling to me.

Plenty of guys from Mexico got shafted hard in this especially. Black Terry was far and away my WOTY for 2010. I can sort of understand him not getting any talk in the most outstanding wrestler category since IWRG is a promotion most of the voters don't seem to be bothering about, but he doesn't even get an honorable in either that or the best brawler category when he smokes the shit out of practically everybody that got into the top ten for it (and I tend to like Steen, FWIW).

I also apparently have no idea what technical wrestling is. Devitt? Richards? lolwut? (Angle and Marufuji wound up rounding out the top 5, btw. And those guys legitimately fucking suck the huge one)


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## reDREDD (Oct 12, 2008)

Fun fact, the total number of dollars Ive ever given Vinnie Mac is 150 dollars. I bought one single PPV back in 2004 to see Benoit win the Rumble (best night ever). And I bought two Smackdown vs Raw videogames.

Now as for pro wrestling, lets face it, it was never gonna last forever. And technically speaking the focus on the actual wrestling part has been on decline since the 1920s when Gorgeous George showed up. And then it took another shot when Buddy Rogers won the NWA title. And then when vinnie mac bought the company and put the belt on Hogan, it was pretty much game over. Because the thing is, his system works. Thats how he beat the NWA, besides his sleezy underhanded tactics.

Now the point is, im not entirely sure what the point is. I'll watch whatever i damn well wanna watch. Also John Cena is kewl. Honestly, people should really give him a break, he tries the best he can dammit! 

Now, as for Davey Richards, i dont know who that is. All I know is Jon Hamm Sandwhich keeps cracking jokes about him.

I have seen Steen vs Generico though. Damn good blood fued. Reminds me of the old days of wrasslin when feuds lasted longer than a week and people used to try to kill each other physically.


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## ViolenceIsGolden (May 15, 2009)

redeadening said:


> Fun fact, the total number of dollars Ive ever given Vinnie Mac is 150 dollars. I bought one single PPV back in 2004 to see Benoit win the Rumble (best night ever). And I bought two Smackdown vs Raw videogames.
> 
> Now as for pro wrestling, lets face it, it was never gonna last forever. And technically speaking the focus on the actual wrestling part has been on decline since the 1920s when Gorgeous George showed up. And then it took another shot when Buddy Rogers won the NWA title. And then when vinnie mac bought the company and put the belt on Hogan, it was pretty much game over. Because the thing is, his system works. Thats how he beat the NWA, besides his sleezy underhanded tactics.
> 
> Now the point is, im not entirely sure what the point is. I'll watch whatever i damn well wanna watch. Also John Cena is kewl. Honestly, people should really give him a break, he tries the best he can dammit!


Don't care for your last paragraph but I see what your saying. In that case if it "works" then why is UFC doing better numbers then him? He says their not a threat but if he did think that or stated it wouldn't you think he would be getting higher numbers than them by now?

I'm not gonna let anybody tell me to watch WWE just because Vince is a better business man and it's the big time promotion. I still care about pro wrestling above Mixed Martial Arts and Sports Entertainment. It might have been dieing since the 1920's but that doesn't mean it can't have more of the spot light.

I mean just look at Andys post about Black Terry in Mexico. That's the kind of stuff I'm talking about.

I just wished the real wrestlers out there would stop wasting their time thinking they are beneath WWE and giving them too much respect and due as if their life in the small feds is worthless or they just thrive on the fans to go on. With that mentality Vince McMahon and fan boys of WWE will just continually stomp on the tradition of pro wrestling and laugh at the people that like that stuff.


----------



## johnnyshear (Jan 19, 2011)

ZackDanielson said:


> John Cena wrestler of the year? really? Bull Fuckin Shit


Read the directions for the category, dude.



kinofkings 232 said:


> wow this list really is bull shit. haha its a good thing its doesnt mean anything to anyone in the buisness.


You clearly dont follow Wrestlers on twitter.

Ric Flair speaks about the major pride he takes in dominating the awards in the 1980s. Jericho also put over how important they are. In short you are a dumbass.


----------



## Gennel (Oct 6, 2010)

I really dont get why the Observer has to mix wrestling and MMA together for the awards. If they want to do MMA awards thats fine, just do them separately. Say what you want about Eric Bischoff but his 'apples and bricks' analogy is spot on and its completely idiotic to lump the two together for these kind of awards.

I mean they gave the 'BEST MAJOR *WRESTLING *SHOW' award to UFC 116. It makes no fcking sense....


----------



## seancarleton77 (Jul 4, 2006)

The REAL MP said:


> Yeah but Sugiura didn't draw dick for money last year, and that's really the main goal of PROFESSIONAL wrestling. Which I know drives a lot of people here crazy, but there's nothing you can do about it. I agree with Cena winning.
> 
> And to the people complaining about adding MMA to the "Best Draw" category, consider this: Brock's two fights this year drew as many North American PPV buys as WWE's entire year, so there was no question about who was winning that category either.


So Brock Lesnar should be wrestler of the year then. He comes from wrestling and cuts awesome promos and he is better than Cena in every way imaginable.


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## The REAL MP (Mar 4, 2010)

Gennel said:


> I really dont get why the Observer has to mix wrestling and MMA together for the awards. If they want to do MMA awards thats fine, just do them separately. Say what you want about Eric Bischoff but his 'apples and bricks' analogy is spot on and its completely idiotic to lump the two together for these kind of awards.
> 
> I mean they gave the 'BEST MAJOR *WRESTLING *SHOW' award to UFC 116. It makes no fcking sense....


The Observer covers both sports extensively. There's no reason to overthink this, or take it too seriously, or consider it a joke either.

In short, everyone calm down.


----------



## ViolenceIsGolden (May 15, 2009)

Gennel said:


> I really dont get why the Observer has to mix wrestling and MMA together for the awards. If they want to do MMA awards thats fine, just do them separately. Say what you want about Eric Bischoff but his 'apples and bricks' analogy is spot on and its completely idiotic to lumo the two together for these kind of awards.
> 
> I mean they gave the 'BEST MAJOR *WRESTLING *SHOW' award to UFC 116. It makes no fcking sense....


They just hope Vince McMahon or somebody that doesn't give a shit about Dave Meltzer will read his awards and they just wanna stir something up between UFC and pro wrestling when all it does is make UFC stronger and is killing pro wrestling.

Dave Meltzer is a piece of shit. He should just watch UFC and stop trying to contributing to the death of pro wrestling. He might not think it is and some people might be calling me crazy for calling him a piece of shit and all that but it's true.


----------



## reDREDD (Oct 12, 2008)

Personally Id rather watch Vader trying to squash Sting over and over again for 30 minutes over the shit they put on the air nowadays. For some reason, even though I rarely even watch anymore, i like to keep up with what happens. Dunno why though, must be out of habit. Or the fact that occasionally once in a while the WWE decides to not be retarded and actually put something out that doesnt suck.

Personally I think the lack of ratings is from Vince it giving a shit anymore. He lost his killer instinct. He's too secure. No reason to try anymore. Unlike Dana who's still hungry for more and more. Dana reminds me alot of Vince in the 80s. All he basically did was try to adapt an already existing concept, get the most talents in the world, and creating a promoting style based on boxing in its peak periods.

As for wrestling, its all good. I'll pretty much watch any promotion just as long as its not stupid. i just dont have the time to search for every single new ROH match or PWG or some other promotion. Not to mention the time to download them. The WWE is just very familiar and i know where to download them. Plus its easier to keep track of.


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## The REAL MP (Mar 4, 2010)

seancarleton77 said:


> So Brock Lesnar should be wrestler of the year then. He comes from wrestling and cuts awesome promos and he is better than Cena in every way imaginable.


Except Brock didn't appear on one single pro wrestling show last year. I don't know why we're going backwards here.


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## johnnyshear (Jan 19, 2011)

Cue 10 pages of people not reading up the categories.



ViolenceIsGolden said:


> Dave Meltzer is a piece of shit. He should just watch UFC and stop trying to contributing to the death of pro wrestling. He might not think it is and some people might be calling me crazy for calling him a piece of shit and all that but it's true.


Wut


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## ViolenceIsGolden (May 15, 2009)

johnnyshear said:


> Wut


Please for the sake of wrestling fans and all of humanity just go away. You leave no insightful feedback in this thread. Your the exact type of the person that's making pro wrestling a headache for me lately.


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## johnnyshear (Jan 19, 2011)

ViolenceIsGolden said:


> Please for the sake of wrestling fans and all of humanity just go away. You leave no insightful feedback in this thread. Your the exact type of the person that's making pro wrestling a headache for me lately.


Please explain how Pro Wrestling journalist and historian Dave Meltzer is contributing to the death of pro wrestling?

I really want to hear this.

Firstly have you ever subscribed to his newsletter?


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## The REAL MP (Mar 4, 2010)

Before this gets too carried away, let's remember that these were voted on by the Observer readers. Not Meltzer. He questioned most of the winners in the newsletter and on Observer Radio.


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## johnnyshear (Jan 19, 2011)

The REAL MP said:


> Before this gets too carried away, let's remember that these were voted on by the Observer readers. Not Meltzer. He questioned most of the winners in the newsletter and on Observer Radio.


Isnt it funny that the people who have the biggest people are those who dont seem to understand anything about it?


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## ViolenceIsGolden (May 15, 2009)

johnnyshear said:


> Please explain how Pro Wrestling journalist and historian Dave Meltzer is contributing to the death of pro wrestling?
> 
> I really want to hear this.
> 
> Firstly have you ever subscribed to his newsletter?


I thought my point was set in stone in the post you replied "wut" to but I guess I have to explain every little thing and in this case I'll just say it over again. He's contributing to the death by putting UFC over pro wrestling. Even if this is a opinionative award that I shouldn't be taking too seriously and WWE employees will never even read. Call me a psycho but I believe there is a underlining power to giving awards to UFC in a pro wrestling award that will help destroy pro wrestling.

Now I'm just generalizing him with pro wrestling fans that turned to UFC and MMA but that is what he is. If they want out just stay out and stop trying to hold onto his dumb little newsletter awards because a few people still think his opinion means something in 2011 when he watches more MMA than anything else.

I actually don't read his newsletter but that doesn't mean my opinion would change on the guy. I don't wanna hear this wishy washy tough guy talk of telling me how dare I call somebody a piece of shit for no good reason. I have my reasoning. If somebody came up to you and wanted to start fighting you and calling you one and you couldn't figure out why I'm sure you would get over it. It's just life and yes I would tell that to his face and like I said I don't dislike the guy so much because I'm not a fan of his newsletter or anything like that but I dislike him because his JOB is being a pro wrestling journalist and instead of taking his job seriously he has an opinion no more complex as any of yours. Fuck this guy.


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## johnnyshear (Jan 19, 2011)

ViolenceIsGolden said:


> I thought my point was set in stone in the post you replied "wut" to but I guess I have to explain every little thing and in this case I'll just say it over again. He's contributing to the death by putting UFC over pro wrestling. Even if this is a opinionative award that I shouldn't be taking too seriously and WWE employees will never even read. Call me a psycho but I believe there is a underlining power to giving awards to UFC in a pro wrestling award that will help destroy pro wrestling.
> 
> Now I'm just generalizing him with pro wrestling fans that turned to UFC and MMA but that is what he is. If they want out just stay out and stop trying to hold onto his dumb little newsletter awards because a few people still think his opinion means something in 2011 when he watches more MMA than anything else.
> 
> I actually don't read his newsletter but that doesn't mean my opinion would change on the guy. I don't wanna hear this wishy washy tough guy talk of telling me how dare I call somebody a piece of shit for no good reason. I have my reasoning. If somebody came up to you and wanted to start fighting you and calling you one and you couldn't figure out why I'm sure you would get over it. It's just life and yes I would tell that to his face and like I said I don't dislike the guy so much because I'm not a fan of his newsletter or anything like that but I dislike him because his JOB is being a pro wrestling journalist and instead of taking his job seriously he has an opinion no more complex as any of yours. Fuck this guy.


This is the most bizarre thing Ive read in a while, seriously. Im not even trying to be mean here. Im trying to look at your point objectively. 

So is it Meltzer's fault MMA is out promoting Wrestling?

How do you know he watches MMA than anything else (he doesnt) or that his opinion no more complex as any of yours (he makes more sense than you do here)? When you dont subscribe?


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## The REAL MP (Mar 4, 2010)

VIG, when you start your own newsletter, then you can write about whatever you want, too. It can be about pro wrestling, MMA, pro wrestling & MMA, nothing but Fuck Dave Meltzer rants, or whatever your heart desires.

But pro wrestling isn't going to die anytime soon, and MMA isn't going anywhere either. So if I were you, I'd chill the fuck out before I have a heart attack.


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## dele (Feb 21, 2005)

BRUISER BRODY MEMORIAL AWARD (BEST BRAWLER)

1. KEVIN STEEN
2. Jon Moxley
3. Togi Makabe

This is the only one I have a problem with. How in THE BLUE HELL is Masashi Takeda, a guy who has had probably the best two years a death match wrestler has had since maybe Ito in 2003-04 not on here?

P.S. Makabe makes hardcore wrestling fans look like idiots. He sucks.


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## jawbreaker (May 16, 2009)

All the bitching in this thread has me more convinced than ever that PWG is the only promotion in the world today that gets wrestling right.


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## ViolenceIsGolden (May 15, 2009)

dele said:


> BRUISER BRODY MEMORIAL AWARD (BEST BRAWLER)
> 
> 1. KEVIN STEEN
> 2. Jon Moxley
> ...


They just totally ignored Big Japan Wrestling, CZW, and a few other guys out there I'm sure of. So many better picks besides Togi Makabe. The top two are obvious but I'd switch Moxley with Steen or possibly take Steen of the list. Bruiser Brody was all about brawling and while most NOAH stuff reminds me of that he was also one of the early influences of Hardcore wrestling and in that case if Steen and Moxley got on here for their hardcore matches why not BJW or CZW guys.


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## patrickshelley (Feb 3, 2010)

ViolenceIsGolden said:


> They just totally ignored Big Japan Wrestling, CZW, and a few other guys out there I'm sure of. So many better picks besides Togi Makabe. The top two are obvious but I'd switch Moxley with Steen or possibly take Steen of the list. Bruiser Brody was all about brawling and while most NOAH stuff reminds me of that he was also one of the early influences of Hardcore wrestling and in that case if Steen and Moxley got on here for their hardcore matches why not BJW or CZW guys.


Totally agree, i know many people here dislikes Sami Callihan(he is awesome) but don't you guys think he should have been in the top 3? i think he should have got the first place, and also no AR Fox in the rookie of the year


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## dele (Feb 21, 2005)

ViolenceIsGolden said:


> They just totally ignored Big Japan Wrestling, CZW, and a few other guys out there I'm sure of. So many better picks besides Togi Makabe. The top two are obvious but I'd switch Moxley with Steen or possibly take Steen of the list. Bruiser Brody was all about brawling and while most NOAH stuff reminds me of that he was also one of the early influences of Hardcore wrestling and in that case if Steen and Moxley got on here for their hardcore matches why not BJW or CZW guys.


I'm just miffed that Meltzer totally ignores BJW. For the last 4-5 years, they have consistently put on the best hardcore and death match wrestling on the planet. CZW, under their new ownership, has done the right thing to get those guys over to America in order to get them more exposure for their hardcore wrestling talents. I'll take Kasai, Ito, Takashi Sasaki, and Masashi Takeda in brawling and hardcore wrestling over Steen and Moxley every day of the week and twice on Sundays.


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## Chismo (Nov 7, 2009)

I almost never agree with Meltzer.


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## -Mystery- (Mar 19, 2005)

JoeRulz said:


> I almost never agree with Meltzer.


These aren't Meltzer's selections tho.


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## Chismo (Nov 7, 2009)

I know, it's just easier to say 'Meltzer'.


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## Mr.King (Dec 29, 2006)

Bryan Danielson has won the award 5 years in a row of best wrestler.


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## johnnyshear (Jan 19, 2011)

JoeRulz said:


> I know, it's just easier to say 'Meltzer'.


Cool story


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## GOD OF CUNT (Jan 9, 2008)

It's pretty clear this is HEAVILY influenced by what Dave says and writes in the Observer. That's not a criticism or anything. It just is what it is.

If Dave started started talking about Los Traumas being the best tag team in the world next month, there's a good amount of Observer readers that would check out a bunch of Los Traumas matches. You can't really argue Dave's influence on a *lot* of people reading the Observer.


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## Quasi Juice (Apr 3, 2006)

dele said:


> I'm just miffed that Meltzer totally ignores BJW. For the last 4-5 years, they have consistently put on the best hardcore and death match wrestling on the planet. CZW, under their new ownership, has done the right thing to get those guys over to America in order to get them more exposure for their hardcore wrestling talents. I'll take Kasai, Ito, Takashi Sasaki, and Masashi Takeda in brawling and hardcore wrestling over Steen and Moxley every day of the week and twice on Sundays.


It's cause it's deathmatch wrestling. Hardcore/deathmatch wrestling doesn't equal "good brawlers". I understand he doesn't follow it because it's just men ruining their bodies. Not to mention it makes wrestling look shit.


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## johnnyshear (Jan 19, 2011)

Andy3000 said:


> It's pretty clear this is HEAVILY influenced by what Dave says and writes in the Observer. That's not a criticism or anything. It just is what it is.
> 
> If Dave started started talking about Los Traumas being the best tag team in the world next month, there's a good amount of Observer readers that would check out a bunch of Los Traumas matches. You can't really argue Dave's influence on a *lot* of people reading the Observer.


I guess you didnt read or hear Dave's reaction to these


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## reDREDD (Oct 12, 2008)

Do you think guys like Cena or Jericho watch indie wrestlers?


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## CM Skittle (Jul 30, 2006)

Chris Jericho watches indy wrestling but I dunno about John Cena.



johnnyshear said:


> I guess you didnt read or hear Dave's reaction to these


Well then how about you post it then


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## lariatooooo!!! (Aug 9, 2009)

Those awards are so ridiculous. Meltzer must be the biggest spotmark out there, if he thinks that moves like a double rotation moonsault or a 450 splash are somehow credible and better than, well, everything that japanese wrestling has to offer?! Besides, what's his problem with Matt Striker? He's the smarkest announcer I've ever seen in mainstream wrestling and I really like his kind of commentating, but I didn't expect reasonable award winners anyway. 



Jethro said:


> It's cause it's deathmatch wrestling. Hardcore/deathmatch wrestling doesn't equal "good brawlers". I understand he doesn't follow it because it's just men ruining their bodies. Not to mention it makes wrestling look shit.


The truth.


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## Generation-Now (Feb 21, 2010)

lariatooooo!!! said:


> Those awards are so ridiculous. Meltzer must be the biggest spotmark out there, if he thinks that moves like a double rotation moonsault or a 450 splash are somehow credible and better than, well, everything that japanese wrestling has to offer?! Besides, what's his problem with Matt Striker? He's the smarkest announcer I've ever seen in mainstream wrestling and I really like his kind of commentating, but I didn't expect reasonable award winners anyway.


You're a moron.


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## reDREDD (Oct 12, 2008)

LoserVirgin™ said:


> Chris Jericho watches indy wrestling but I dunno about John Cena.
> 
> 
> 
> Well then how about you post it then


Really? Whats he said about them?


----------



## KingCrash (Jul 6, 2007)

:lmao at Skittles' new name.

And for what it's worth Meltzer actually thinks Striker could be a decent announcer, but hates all the stuff he makes up. Why do some people just assume he picked these?


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## johnnyshear (Jan 19, 2011)

lariatooooo!!! said:


> Those awards are so ridiculous. Meltzer must be the biggest spotmark out there, if he thinks that moves like a double rotation moonsault or a 450 splash are somehow credible and better than, well, everything that japanese wrestling has to offer?! Besides, what's his problem with Matt Striker? He's the smarkest announcer I've ever seen in mainstream wrestling and I really like his kind of commentating, but I didn't expect reasonable award winners anyway.
> 
> 
> 
> The truth.


Nope not the truth. Meltzer didnt vote you goon. How many times does this need to be explained?


----------



## reDREDD (Oct 12, 2008)

So thats basically the Other Wrestling section, everyone acts super elitist while insulting the other guy's intelligence?


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## The REAL MP (Mar 4, 2010)

LoserVirgin™;9275765 said:


> Well then how about you post it then


I'm not gonna post the actual newsletter or podcast, but off the top of my head I know Meltzer adamantly disagreed about Orton being the second most overrated. He didn't think GSP deserved Most Outstanding Fighter after winning only one fight by decision during the voting period (he thought Cain Velasquez deserved it). He thought WWE deserved second best promotion after UFC, since they're really the only other promotion that doesn't lose money.

These are just off the top of my head but there was a lot more little stuff that he disagreed with.


----------



## CM Skittle (Jul 30, 2006)

KingCrash said:


> :lmao at Skittles' new name.


lol, That's not funny.  I didn't get to choose it by the way, I got a name change for winning the meanest member award.


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## KingCrash (Jul 6, 2007)

Maybe you should be nicer. It'll get changed back......eventually.



redeadening said:


> So thats basically the Other Wrestling section, everyone acts super elitist while insulting the other guy's intelligence?


Not usually (unless we're talking about Davey Richards), some of the people in this thread I've never seen before.


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## reDREDD (Oct 12, 2008)

I dont get it, whats so controversial about Davey Richards? Why him in particular?


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## KingCrash (Jul 6, 2007)

redeadening said:


> I dont get it, whats so controversial about Davey Richards? Why him in particular?


Well lately there's been a start of a backlash of Richards because some think he doesn't have any psychology to his matches (all he does is kicks and be stiff), all his matches seem the same and he doesn't have a set finisher so you almost never buy any of the nearfalls. Basically people either love or hate his style, almost no in-between.


----------



## johnnyshear (Jan 19, 2011)

redeadening said:


> So thats basically the Other Wrestling section, everyone acts super elitist while insulting the other guy's intelligence?


Well how many times does one have to explain that this is a fan vote. I mean seriously at this stage.


----------



## Chismo (Nov 7, 2009)

redeadening said:


> I dont get it, whats so controversial about Davey Richards? Why him in particular?


People say he 'rassles the same match all the time (isn't that what every wrestler do?), people say he's INTENZE and looks ridiculous while intenzing, he just tries too hard. I agree with most of these things, he's not exactly my coup of tea. He's good, but massively overrated over here. Although, Davey was on f'n fire last year, so kudos for that.


----------



## RKing85 (Mar 22, 2010)

I love CM Punk on commentary, but he didn't start until December. The voting time frame ended in November. That makes no sense to me.


----------



## seancarleton77 (Jul 4, 2006)

Pro Wrestling being out of touch, matches and feuds being poorly built and a product that insults the fans intelligence are more like leading contributors to the state of pro wrestling, blame Russo & McMahon, not a journalist.


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## reDREDD (Oct 12, 2008)

I have heard many things about Davey's INTENSITY~!

Meh, i guess i gotta check him out for myself first.


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## The REAL MP (Mar 4, 2010)

Just so nobody loses sight of how significant these awards are, ROH posted a mainpage article summarizing all of the placements of their roster. "Kings Reign Supreme" is the title, if you're looking for it.

No, it's not The Bible and everyone should feel free to reasonably disagree, but people in the industry do pay attention to these things.


----------



## Yeah1993 (Nov 20, 2008)

Andy3000 said:


> I also apparently have no idea what technical wrestling is. Devitt? Richards? lolwut? (Angle and Marufuji wound up rounding out the top 5, btw. And those guys legitimately fucking suck the huge one)



technical wrestling to most fans is having the most moves in your arsenal and being able to counter anything ridiculous into anything more ridiculous. which explains a horrible wrestler like Marufuji being recognised as a "great" one to a lot fans. honestly they might as well slap a star rating on a gynamstics performance.


----------



## Bubz (Jul 19, 2007)

> technical wrestling to most fans is having the most moves in your arsenal and being able to counter anything ridiculous into anything more ridiculous. which explains a horrible wrestler like Marufuji being recognised as a "great" one to a lot fans. honestly they might as well slap a star rating on a gynamstics performance.


I don't think there are many people who think thats what technical wrestling means, I do think Marufuji is overrated though.


----------



## The Great Maijin (Apr 15, 2003)

Davey richards is just stiff and does a bunch of kicks. I dont see how thats makes him one of the best. I could name over a dozen people in japan who can do that. His matches have been given a lot of praise but i haven't seen but a few so i dont know too much about his performance.


----------



## The REAL MP (Mar 4, 2010)

So there are officially more people talking about Davey Richards that don't watch Davey Richards, than people talking about Davey Richards who do watch Davey Richards. And the man who talks about him most is the man who hates him most.

Other Wrestling, everybody.


----------



## DesolationRow (Oct 11, 2009)

RKing85 said:


> I love CM Punk on commentary, but he didn't start until December. The voting time frame ended in November. That makes no sense to me.


He started doing commentary part-time on NXT3 back in September, helping to make that show the funniest wrestling show of 2010. Just for the record.


----------



## jawbreaker (May 16, 2009)

Richards is just one of a series of great tag wrestlers ROH has pushed as singles main eventers only to have their flaws exposed once they have to start working 20+ minute singles matches. In the case of Richards and Tyler Black, it's the lack of a character that can work differently with different wrestlers and carry a match. That's what it is for me, and that's why I don't mind Richards in small doses, but when he's main eventing show after show, I'm going to get a bit tired of him.

Chris Hero, on the other hand, portrays his character so well in every little thing he does that for me, watching him wrestle is like looking at a work of art. You don't question it, you don't try and slap a star rating on it, you just sit back and watch Hero do his thing. With Hero, I want to see what he does next. With Richards, it's just kind of whatever.


----------



## DesolationRow (Oct 11, 2009)

jawbreaker said:


> Richards is just one of a series of great tag wrestlers ROH has pushed as singles main eventers only to have their flaws exposed once they have to start working 20+ minute singles matches. In the case of Richards and Tyler Black, it's the lack of a character that can work differently with different wrestlers and carry a match. That's what it is for me, and that's why I don't mind Richards in small doses, but when he's main eventing show after show, I'm going to get a bit tired of him.
> 
> Chris Hero, on the other hand, portrays his character so well in every little thing he does that for me, watching him wrestle is like looking at a work of art. You don't question it, you don't try and slap a star rating on it, you just sit back and watch Hero do his thing. With Hero, I want to see what he does next. With Richards, it's just kind of whatever.


I have to agree. Richards is like the whore whose shtick makes a show of itself and detracts; you're thinking about how she's going about seducing you. With Hero, you just give in. That said, I think Richards is a splendid worker, and his match with Black proved that both men could tell a spectacular piece driven by a bunch of riveting stories, such as the usage of the Texas Cloverleaf for one example. But I agree that Richards main-eventing show after show gets just a little monotonous.

I'm so glad Edge/Kane won Worst Feud. Definitely, by far, the worst feud of the year. I knew it would win by the third week, maybe sooner, of its run. Yeesh.


----------



## McQueen (Jul 17, 2006)

Completely agree. I'm not saying Richards is insanely awful (although his bouts of FIGHTING SPIRIT! are usually so awful in execution they give me fits) but I don't want to see the guy in an ace role in any company. Actually thought pairing Davey and Eddie Edwards as a team was a perfect idea for hiding each guys flaws.


----------



## SuperDuperSonic (Apr 7, 2008)

Davey is great but he's a bit too flamboyant. I want the silent anger that DK and Benoit had.


----------



## SHIRLEY (Jun 9, 2009)

I'm not gonna criticise Chris Hero but he's always struggled to consistently get the right kind of heat. He tends to get big face responses despite being one of the main heels in ROH. You can nitpick at any wrestler and say "this isn't perfect, that isn't perfect". 

Davey's an everyman character that people really get behind. He had numerous matches this past year that will sell indy DVDs. What more can you ask for?


----------



## wrestlingfan91 (Aug 16, 2006)

It just shows that those people are biased morons who think they are better then anybody else. How does Randy Orton even get called overrated when he is the second most over Face of the WWE, and they even mix it MMA, makes no sense at all to me, why don't they add Boxing and Thai Boxing. I don't even watch MMA much but even i know that Anderson Silva is pretty much the best Fighter pound for pound, not that boring GSP. And anybody else then Cena as the best talker, behind him Punk and third VKM/Batista, that's crazy, i never heard of this japanese People.


----------



## Nexus One (Jul 4, 2010)

Just wanted to say that even though he had a great rookie year in the Awards, Del RIO deserves even more.



> The Wrestler of the Year award always goes to the guy who puts on the most great matches for the company and makes the most positive impact on the show compared to everyone else. Cena easily wins that catagory, but it can be argued that it was only because WWE focused many of their biggest feuds on Cena.


Even if you used that criteria, it's not true. Cena has been a detriment more than anything. Nexus was the biggest ratings booster of the last 8 or so months. And Cena's matches weren't better than Jericho's. Not at any point in 2010. The notion is utterly absurd.


----------



## Generation-Now (Feb 21, 2010)

Nexus One said:


> Just wanted to say that even though he had a great rookie year in the Awards, Del RIO deserves even more.
> 
> 
> 
> Even if you used that criteria, it's not true. Cena has been a detriment more than anything. *Nexus was the biggest ratings booster of the last 8 or so months.* And Cena's matches weren't better than Jericho's. Not at any point in 2010. The notion is utterly absurd.


lol can you substantiate that claim?


----------



## Kapik1337 (Oct 23, 2010)

You people are nuts. Davey Richards is the best wrestler in the world right now. And Naomichi Marufuji is damn good.


----------



## Bubz (Jul 19, 2007)

People calling Davey the best in the wrold is what is making people dislike the guy, I think everyone can appreciate Davey, in some form, but he is'nt the best wrestler in the world. I love Davey, he is one of my favorite wrestlers, but i am not going to sit here and say he is perfect because i know he is'nt. I do find though that there are a lot worse offenders than Davey when it comes to the things people complain about him for, some Japanese wrestlers come to mind such as Marufuji and KENTA. They can no sell and do all these flashy moves and kicks with no psychology AT ALL but they still get praised, Davey at least has moments of great psychology.

P.S. sounds like i am hating on Fuji and KENTA, but i'm not, i still enjoy the majority of their stuff.


----------



## lariatooooo!!! (Aug 9, 2009)

johnnyshear said:


> Nope not the truth. Meltzer didnt vote you goon. How many times does this need to be explained?


 Then I am badly informed, which makes it even worse. Sry fpalm

No offense, but can it be that most people wo think Davey Richards is "the best in the world" are american and support ROH? If you try to view him from an objective point of view he could be replaced with almost every japanese Junior, so I don't get the hype. Guess most of the Davey marks aren't even interested in Puroresu or Lucha Libre, so claiming that Davey Richards is "the best in the world" if you're just able to estimate the roster of a american cult promotion doesn't make any sense.


----------



## SHIRLEY (Jun 9, 2009)

lariatooooo!!! said:


> Then I am badly informed, which makes it even worse. Sry fpalm
> 
> No offense, but can it be that most people wo think Davey Richards is "the best in the world" are american and support ROH? If you try to view him from an objective point of view he could be replaced with almost every japanese Junior, so I don't get the hype. Guess most of the Davey marks aren't even interested in Puroresu or Lucha Libre, so claiming that Davey Richards is "the best in the world" if you're just able to estimate the roster of a american cult promotion doesn't make any sense.


So you're saying that Dave Meltzer's entire readership only watches ROH?


----------



## ViolenceIsGolden (May 15, 2009)

Look if people can say Davey Richards is overrated or go further and say he sucks I don't see why these voters can't leave Japanese guys off and still claim they've watched every single match from every single Japanese promotion this year. It's all just opinion. Some I just can't understand. In their case we're expecting too much of this "professionalism" from them but really all these voters are is just a bunch of dumb marks.


----------



## johnnyshear (Jan 19, 2011)

Love reading the stuff from the more illinformed posters on here. You are passing judgement on awards you dont understand. Namely lariatooooo!!! and wrestlingfan91.


----------



## Bubz (Jul 19, 2007)

You might not like the guy, your not alone, but you can't just go around saying that anybody that likes Davey and is a fan of his work does'nt know wrestling outside of America. I watch a lot of Japanese wrestling, but i still prefer Davey to a lot of Japanese juniors. I'm sure a lot of Davey fans, not marks (i hate that term), watch japanese wrestling as that is where he obviously gets his style from.


----------



## lariatooooo!!! (Aug 9, 2009)

johnnyshear said:


> You are passing judgement on awards you dont understand.


1. I wasn't talking about the awards when I wrote about DR.
2. There's a difference between not understanding sth. and missunderstanding.



Shirley Crabtree III said:


> So you're saying that Dave Meltzer's entire readership only watches ROH?


No, but at least a lot do so I guess. I just don't get what makes him better than japanese juniors in their opinion if they're watching both, american indy and puro-wrestling. I didn't even say that I don't like his style of wrestling. He's just not as awesome as almost everyone thinks IMO and he's far away from being the "best in the world". It's not that I couldn't accept it, if people think Richards is great it's okay. Just wondering why so many fans like him of all people and not Strong/Hero/whoever with a similar career. In the end it's just opinion vs. opinion, so I don't expect that discussion to be over anytime soon.


----------



## Bubz (Jul 19, 2007)

> No, but at least a lot do so I guess. I just don't get what makes him better than japanese juniors in their opinion if they're watching both, american indy and puro-wrestling. I didn't even say that I don't like his style of wrestling. He's just not as awesome as almost everyone thinks IMO and he's far away from being the "best in the world". It's not that I couldn't accept it, if people think Richards is great it's okay. Just wondering why so many fans like him of all people and not Strong/Hero/whoever with a similar career. In the end it's just opinion vs. opinion, so I don't expect that discussion to be over anytime soon.


Thats fair enough. To answer your questions though i think he is better than Strong in the ring and has a better personality, but Hero is better than both of them. like i said in an earlier post, a lot of japanese juniors don't sell at all, but i think Davey is a great seller. Take his match with Strong at Final Battle, people complained about no selling, but he sold it perfectly, there is a difference between no selling and willing yourself to kick out of stuff. But your right, with the way Davey wrestles there are always going to be people who like him and people who don't so its best just to leave it at that.


----------



## The Great Maijin (Apr 15, 2003)

Ive seen some of his japanese work and Richards is not special. He seems like a gaijin who wants to be japanese. How is he better than KENTA, someone who style he has but is better at it? He has a lot oif buzz and has been giving effort from what i hear but i dont think that makes him the best. He may have had a stand out year but being stiff doesnt make u a great wrestler.


----------



## Bubz (Jul 19, 2007)

He is better than KENTA IMO. KENTA literally would'nt sell death. He isn't just stiff though, he is also able to tell a story in the ring, he is a good mat wrestler, submission wrestler and athletic. Like i said, he is'nt the best in the world, nowhere near, but i will always defend him from silly comments like "he is just stiff is all". His japanese work isn't really good to go by tbh. Watch his match with Black in ROH and his match with Hero in PWG and then come back and tell me he isn't at least a very good wrestler.


----------



## The Great Maijin (Apr 15, 2003)

bubz123 said:


> He is better than KENTA IMO. KENTA literally would'nt sell death. He isn't just stiff though, he is also able to tell a story in the ring, he is a good mat wrestler, submission wrestler and athletic. Like i said, he is'nt the best in the world, nowhere near, but i will always defend him from silly comments like "he is just stiff is all". His japanese work isn't really good to go by tbh. Watch his match with Black in ROH and his match with Hero in PWG and then come back and tell me he isn't at least a very good wrestler.


Ive never seen him do anything that would make him a good mat wrestler but some people think he is a good technical wrestler so i would have to see it. I know, KENTA is stubborn but i doubt his american version is better than him.


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## Bubz (Jul 19, 2007)

I can't see what makes KENTA better than Richards though, you say he is just stiff, but KENTA is known for being stiff and not much else. I like KENTA though btw, just incase you think i'm bashing him, Davey is better IMO, its an opinion though so i guess theres no point arguing about it. But you realy should see some of his top level matches in ROH and PWG before you can criticise him, if you still don't like him after that then thats fine with me.


----------



## The Great Maijin (Apr 15, 2003)

bubz123 said:


> I can't see what makes KENTA better than Richards though, you say he is just stiff, but KENTA is known for being stiff and not much else. I like KENTA though btw, just incase you think i'm bashing him, Davey is better IMO, its an opinion though so i guess theres no point arguing about it. But you realy should see some of his top level matches in ROH and PWG before you can criticise him, if you still don't like him after that then thats fine with me.


Hes been doing what davey's doing longer and has a longer track record of matches.


----------



## lariatooooo!!! (Aug 9, 2009)

KENTA had bigger and better matches. He improved a lot in 2008 (and probably 2009), I think it was his best year ever. He got trained by Kobashi, had good matches with Heavyweights (2x Kobashi, 2x Takayama, 1x Akiyama, 1x Sasaki, ...), good Tag matches vs. some heavys as well like Morishima/Rikio, Misawa/Marufuji, which shows that he is able to wrestle different styles and types of wrestlers. His 10/29/06 (don't know exactly) match with Marufuji was great, even if the last minutes were veeeeeeery over the top though. He's had at least solid matches with every junior in Pro Wrestling NOAH, teamed with Ishimori against some Dragon Gate guys, faced Naruki Doi, had a match series with Bryan Danielson which has been awesome ... Ah, and his match with Nigel McGuinness is one of the most underrated matches of the past years IMHO, good story, good finish. Yap. That is why he's NOAH's best Jr. to me and better in anything than Richards hands down.


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## Horselover Fat (May 18, 2006)

Yeah1993 said:


> technical wrestling to most fans is having the most moves in your arsenal and being able to counter anything ridiculous into anything more ridiculous. which explains a horrible wrestler like Marufuji being recognised as a "great" one to a lot fans. honestly they might as well slap a star rating on a gynamstics performance.


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## SHIRLEY (Jun 9, 2009)

lariatooooo!!! said:


> No, but at least a lot do so I guess. I just don't get what makes him better than japanese juniors in their opinion if they're watching both, american indy and puro-wrestling. I didn't even say that I don't like his style of wrestling. He's just not as awesome as almost everyone thinks IMO and he's far away from being the "best in the world". It's not that I couldn't accept it, if people think Richards is great it's okay. Just wondering why so many fans like him of all people and not Strong/Hero/whoever with a similar career. In the end it's just opinion vs. opinion, so I don't expect that discussion to be over anytime soon.


Thing is, by the same token, if Davey was Japanese (or even permanently based in Japan) puro fans would be salivating all over his cock and saying that ROH should bring him in to face Roddy.


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## obby (May 19, 2009)

When is Meltzer gonna stop sucking Dana White's dick? Also, BROCK LESNAR the biggest box office draw? Are you fuckin serious? NOBODY in UFC is a major box office draw, and that's a fact(wow did I actually say that. I'm a fucking dumbass). Only TWO people in the wrestling industry are mainstream draws at all in John Cena and Rey Mysterio. Also, why the hell are Immortal vs Dixie Carter and Undertaker vs Kane worst feuds. Many worse feuds, like John Cena vs Nexus post survivor series, Val Venis vs Christopher Daniels, The Eagle vs Hornswoggle, Smackdown vs RAW, etc.


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## ViolenceIsGolden (May 15, 2009)

Did anybody hear Chris Arrerola's promo after he won that fight just now on ESPN or Bart Scott's promo after the Jets beat the Patriots? If either of them aren't in the top 3 for next years awards I'm gonna be pissed now that Cheael Sonnen is the undisputed promo king.


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## Kiz (Dec 2, 2006)

lesnar gets ppv buys. 

fact.


----------



## heyman deciple (Dec 23, 2006)

bob2 said:


> When is Meltzer gonna stop sucking Dana White's dick? Also, BROCK LESNAR the biggest box office draw? Are you fuckin serious? NOBODY in UFC is a major box office draw, and that's a fact. Only TWO people in the wrestling industry are mainstream draws at all in John Cena and Rey Mysterio. Also, why the hell are Immortal vs Dixie Carter and Undertaker vs Kane worst feuds. Many worse feuds, like John Cena vs Nexus post survivor series, Val Venis vs Christopher Daniels, The Eagle vs Hornswoggle, Smackdown vs RAW, etc.


If you combined the buyrates of Brock Lesnar's two PPV fights this year those buyrates easily top whatever buyrates TNA did all fucking year and quite possibly top or at the very least match WWE's buyrates all year.

UFC may be one of the few companies actually making big money on PPV and Brock Lesnar is one of their biggest attractions period.

And how the fuck was Daniels-Venis a feud? they had one fucking match; A feud involves a storyline.


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## SuperDuperSonic (Apr 7, 2008)

bob2 said:


> When is Meltzer gonna stop sucking Dana White's dick? Also, BROCK LESNAR the biggest box office draw? Are you fuckin serious? NOBODY in UFC is a major box office draw, and that's a fact. Only TWO people in the wrestling industry are mainstream draws at all in John Cena and Rey Mysterio. Also, why the hell are Immortal vs Dixie Carter and Undertaker vs Kane worst feuds. Many worse feuds, like John Cena vs Nexus post survivor series, Val Venis vs Christopher Daniels, The Eagle vs Hornswoggle, Smackdown vs RAW, etc.


I didn't know that Vince McMahon posted here and was a regular viewer of Impact.


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## McQueen (Jul 17, 2006)

bob2 that was the stupidest thing i've seen posted all month.


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## johnnyshear (Jan 19, 2011)

bob2 said:


> When is Meltzer gonna stop sucking Dana White's dick? Also, BROCK LESNAR the biggest box office draw? Are you fuckin serious? NOBODY in UFC is a major box office draw, and that's a fact. Only TWO people in the wrestling industry are mainstream draws at all in John Cena and Rey Mysterio. Also, why the hell are Immortal vs Dixie Carter and Undertaker vs Kane worst feuds. Many worse feuds, like John Cena vs Nexus post survivor series, Val Venis vs Christopher Daniels, The Eagle vs Hornswoggle, Smackdown vs RAW, etc.


How
many
times
does
one
set
of 
awards
need 
to 
be
explained?


----------



## SuperDuperSonic (Apr 7, 2008)

Jon Hamm Sandwich said:


> bob2 that was the stupidest thing i've seen posted all month.


Don't forget Loservirgin's typical gems, as well as someone saying that I'm a worse human being than a child-killer.


----------



## McQueen (Jul 17, 2006)

I'm used that kind of blatent stupidity from her though. Going to have to explain the Child Killer story though. I missed that.


----------



## SuperDuperSonic (Apr 7, 2008)

Just look for my poll about annoying shitheads and shitty human beings in the pro rasslin business.


----------



## obby (May 19, 2009)

Well I'm enititled to opinion, spose. I just think that all this UFC praise isin't great. So yeah, I'm just gonna ignore the red rep I got and continue on, perhaps think a bit more before posting next time.


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## SuperDuperSonic (Apr 7, 2008)

Yeah, fuck UFC. Because it's so rare to catch a grown man wearing an MMA shirt, no, I just see rasslin tees all over the place. And the bars? Could hear a pin drop in them during Lesnar vs. Valesquez, and those WWE and TNA PPVs, you can't find enough seats because the demand is so high to see them.


----------



## johnnyshear (Jan 19, 2011)

bob2 said:


> Well I'm enititled to opinion, spose. I just think that all this UFC praise isin't great. So yeah, I'm just gonna ignore the red rep I got and continue on, perhaps think a bit more before posting next time.


Despite even reading this?



heyman deciple said:


> If you combined the buyrates of Brock Lesnar's two PPV fights this year those buyrates easily top whatever buyrates TNA did all fucking year and quite possibly top or at the very least match WWE's buyrates all year.
> 
> UFC may be one of the few companies actually making big money on PPV and Brock Lesnar is one of their biggest attractions period.


:no:


----------



## Sickburn (Feb 12, 2009)

Kiz said:


> lesnar gets ppv buys.
> 
> fact.


Too true sir.


----------



## McQueen (Jul 17, 2006)

I can understand not liking UFC and everything but if you're blind if you think Pro Wrestling is still a bigger deal than it at this point.


----------



## obby (May 19, 2009)

Never said that. Just said I think Cena is bigger overall. I understand that MMA is the big thing know, and Lesnar will probably be bigger than Cena in the next 1-2 years, but right know I still think Cena is the bigger talent overall, since both kids and adults watch Wrestling, and MMA dosen't apply to many kids.


----------



## McQueen (Jul 17, 2006)

Lesnar is far more famous than Cena already though.

I would assume a few other MMA guys as well. GSP, Randy Couture and Rampage Jackson most likely are too. I'd say Rampage is definately.


----------



## obby (May 19, 2009)

Doubt it. Lesnar is most popular among fight fans/MMA fans, everyone else likes Cena. Lesnar is pretty close though.


----------



## McQueen (Jul 17, 2006)

Nah you're wrong man. People don't give as much of a fuck about Pro Wrestling these days and you don't see it getting any coverage on sportcenter or any form of news media because most people think its a joke. Cena is not at Hogan or Rock levels of national popularity and people outside of the Pro Wrestling fanbase barely know who he is.


----------



## Rush (May 1, 2007)

jesus christ bob2 theres no point in arguing with you about how fucking retarded you are. Cena :lmao legit made me laugh.


----------



## Jobbed_Out (Jul 9, 2006)

bob2 said:


> Doubt it. Lesnar is most popular among fight fans/MMA fans, everyone else likes Cena. Lesnar is pretty close though.


Lesnar is still known by more people worldwide than Cena though. If you ask a non wrestling fan outside the US 85% will not know who John Cena is.


----------



## obby (May 19, 2009)

Rush said:


> jesus christ bob2 theres no point in arguing with you about how fucking retarded you are. Cena :lmao legit made me laugh.


Love it when some people can't discuss things without being assholes. I've already got a debate from like five other people. I suppose Lesnar is more popular than Cena, I just thought it may be possible with the PG rating, and him being the most searched MMA/Wrestling figure on Google in 2010.


----------



## Rush (May 1, 2007)

well your argument about Lesnar really was terrible. i'll stop being a dick if you can eloquently explain why you disagree with his winning of biggest box office draw.


----------



## obby (May 19, 2009)

Jon Hamm Sandwich said:


> Nah you're wrong man. People don't give as much of a fuck about Pro Wrestling these days and you don't see it getting any coverage on sportcenter or any form of news media because most people think its a joke. Cena is not at Hogan or Rock levels of national popularity and people outside of the Pro Wrestling fanbase barely know who he is.


Yeah, I guess so. Bookers are just kinda lazy knowadays. 


(what I meant to send in rep, btw)


----------



## The BoogeyMan (Jan 3, 2006)

> BEST BOOKER
> 
> 1. JOE SILVA (UFC)
> 2. Gedo & Jado (New Japan) (right? I think so...)
> ...


Not sure if I like this. I'm a fan of both wrestling and MMA but it's a lot easier to book UFC event than it is to book a wrestling show. In UFC, you pair together the fighters based on a number of things but in say, WWE you book a whole lot more than just who wrestles together. To an extent, once the UFC fights are booked, the talent of the fighters is what carries it.


----------



## McQueen (Jul 17, 2006)

Yeah I both agree and disagree with you but when it comes down to it its about booking fights/matches people want to see and making your organization money.

But I agree in that I don't really think its fair to compare the two head to head to be honest.


----------



## SHIRLEY (Jun 9, 2009)

The BoogeyMan said:


> Not sure if I like this. I'm a fan of both wrestling and MMA but it's a lot easier to book UFC event than it is to book a wrestling show. In UFC, you pair together the fighters based on a number of things but in say, WWE you book a whole lot more than just who wrestles together. To an extent, once the UFC fights are booked, the talent of the fighters is what carries it.


Sporadic bursts of unscripted grappling isn't enough to carry a global entertainment spectacle.


----------



## GOD OF CUNT (Jan 9, 2008)

Rush said:


> well your argument about Lesnar really was terrible. i'll stop being a dick if you can eloquently explain why you disagree with his winning of biggest box office draw.


I don't really like the Box Office Draw award to begin with. 

Voting on something that's basically an objective fact has always been sort of strange.


----------



## ViolenceIsGolden (May 15, 2009)

Andy3000 said:


> I don't really like the Box Office Draw award to begin with.
> 
> Voting on something that's basically an objective fact has always been sort of strange.


So Brock Lesnar won the Box Office Draw award but John Cena and Big Show starred in a movie. How many movies did Brock Lesnar sell out at the box office this year? :hmm:


----------



## Derek (Jan 24, 2004)

ViolenceIsGolden said:


> So Brock Lesnar won the Box Office Draw award but John Cena and Big Show starred in a movie. *How many movies did Brock Lesnar sell out at the box office this year? :hmm:*


The same number as Cena and Show did. Zero. Those movies were huge flops.


----------



## GOD OF CUNT (Jan 9, 2008)

Yeah, Cena and Show being in a movie really doesn't mean shit when both movies were largely unsuccessful.


----------



## Rush (May 1, 2007)

Andy3000 said:


> I don't really like the Box Office Draw award to begin with.
> 
> Voting on something that's basically an objective fact has always been sort of strange.


yeah but when you dispute the facts, its generally rather dumb.


----------



## SHIRLEY (Jun 9, 2009)

Rush said:


> yeah but when you dispute the facts, its generally rather dumb.


Maybe its a case of showing which people draw the WON readers into spending their money.

idunnolol.jpg


----------



## obby (May 19, 2009)

Rush said:


> well your argument about Lesnar really was terrible. i'll stop being a dick if you can eloquently explain why you disagree with his winning of biggest box office draw.


I admitted that I was wrong on that one. I just got the topics mixed up with a quick read, it just seems kind of stupid to have an award based on a fact. I just thought that it meant the most recognizable\most mainstream, something like that, which I was still wrong on. Admitted it. It's kinda odd they have an award based on an already known fact anywas.



Shirley Crabtree III said:


> Maybe its a case of showing which people draw the WON readers into spending their money.


Yeah, I was kind of thinking something similar as well. I just don't understand why they would have an award based on a stat.


----------



## obby (May 19, 2009)

The BoogeyMan said:


> Not sure if I like this. I'm a fan of both wrestling and MMA but it's a lot easier to book UFC event than it is to book a wrestling show. In UFC, you pair together the fighters based on a number of things but in say, WWE you book a whole lot more than just who wrestles together. To an extent, once the UFC fights are booked, the talent of the fighters is what carries it.


Yeah, it's a lot harder to book wrestling. I would maybe have a 'Best booked' category for wrestling, and 'Best booked' for MMA


----------



## SuperDuperSonic (Apr 7, 2008)

Yeah, much harder to book something that's predetermined.


----------



## Jon Staley (Aug 8, 2007)

Wow, what a complete joke these awards are. :lmao


----------



## johnnyshear (Jan 19, 2011)

The JPH said:


> Wow, what a complete joke these awards are. :lmao


Well reasoned post here.


----------



## obby (May 19, 2009)

superdupersonic said:


> Yeah, much harder to book something that's predetermined.


And that you have to book six days a week, including storylines, angles, interviewes AND matchmaking. What's harder, writing and directing a movie, or telling a guy to fight another guy? You have to be skilled to create good matchups, but it's the same thing with wrestling.


----------



## The BoogeyMan (Jan 3, 2006)

> And that you have to book six days a week, including storylines, angles, interviewes AND matchmaking.


Agreed. UFC chooses their fights based on what makes money, who is similar to who, where they are in the rankings etc. but WWE has to do twice that amount of work on a week-to-week basis. I'd compare it more to (UFC) casting who stars in the film and (WWE) writing the whole fucking thing. 

WWE alone has 5 hours of material to put out per week and they seemingly have control over all of it. With UFC, I get the feeling that whatever happens is because of the fighters, not the bookers. 

Still, their promoting work is great so I can't falter them there. Even then, the actual booking of UFC is pretty good too. I just think it's an entirely different realm from wrestling's booking and it puzzles me to put them next to each other.

The mic work thing boggles me too. UFC fighters don't "have" to be good talkers to make it to the top. Being good on the mic is a big part of being successful in pro wrestling. Though that's just my two cents.


----------



## reDREDD (Oct 12, 2008)

Who the fuck is that jabroni from UFC who beat WWE stars to win best on the stick?


----------



## McQueen (Jul 17, 2006)

Chael Sonnen is a pretty good shittalker though Redead.


----------



## SuperDuperSonic (Apr 7, 2008)

The BoogeyMan said:


> Agreed. UFC chooses their fights based on what makes money, who is similar to who, where they are in the rankings etc. but WWE has to do twice that amount of work on a week-to-week basis. I'd compare it more to (UFC) casting who stars in the film and (WWE) writing the whole fucking thing.
> 
> WWE alone has 5 hours of material to put out per week and they seemingly have control over all of it. With UFC, I get the feeling that whatever happens is because of the fighters, not the bookers.
> 
> ...


UFC booking works more because they aren't control freaks.


----------



## sharkboy22 (Feb 13, 2010)

People are gonna hate me for saying this, worse yet of all sections this one, but ROH weekly was/is absolute shit. Unless Meltzer gives the award based on the wrestling alone on the show, then I agree with him....for the most part. But then again, it's not like RAW, Smackdown or iMPACT put up that much of a fight. 

Also how does TNA second attempt at the Monday Night Wars not get Worst Promotional Tactic? Talk about a flop. At least Stand Up For WWE garnered some interest and even won an award.

All in all a good list but I believe Meltzer's man crush for Daniel Bryan is getting ridiculous, he hasn't done anything ground breaking for the majority of 2010 to deserve his award.

I also believe Wrestler of The Year should have gone to Randy Orton. But John Cena is a close second.


----------



## The REAL MP (Mar 4, 2010)

I know. Meltzer's man crush on Bryan is so huge that he thought Davey Richards should have won Most Outstanding Wrestler. An award that he didn't vote for.

That Meltzer. What a kiss ass!


----------



## sharkboy22 (Feb 13, 2010)

The REAL MP said:


> I know. Meltzer's man crush on Bryan is so huge that he thought Davey Richards should have won Most Outstanding Wrestler. An award that he didn't vote for.
> 
> That Meltzer. What a kiss ass!


Should have edited my previous entry. 

I apologize I didn't know that fans voted for this awarded. 

No need to bite my balls and show off your vast superior knowledge cause "WE ARE THE POSTERS OF THE OTHER WRESTLING SECTION!"

The last paragraph wasn't directed towards you btw just those in general that are ready to, well, bite my balls.


----------



## The REAL MP (Mar 4, 2010)

Yeah I didn't mean to be a smart ass either. But there's 18 pages here of people making the exact same mistake and it's starting to drive me just a little bit crazy.


----------



## SHIRLEY (Jun 9, 2009)

sharkboy22 said:


> All in all a good list but I believe Meltzer's man crush for Daniel Bryan is getting ridiculous,* he hasn't done anything ground breaking for the majority of 2010 to deserve his award.*


What planet have you been on? 

He's been one of the main examples of a complete change of policy from Vince McMahon - pushing younger, smaller, more athletic guys. He had a few of WWE's best matches of the year. He was heavily involved in the biggest angle of the year. He cut some of the best promos of the year. He was a crucial part of that interlinking core group of new pushes in 2010 - Barrett, Miz, Bryan, Cole etc. He got over in a matter of months. He's now four months, and counting, into a U.S. title reign and seems extremely likely to still hold that belt come Wrestlemania time. _AND_ he has a T-shirt and an action figure.

What more could one guy possibly do in 11 months?


----------



## reDREDD (Oct 12, 2008)

He could shake around uncontrollably like he's having seizures while hissing.


----------



## McQueen (Jul 17, 2006)

:lmao I hate that gimmick so much.


----------



## SuperDuperSonic (Apr 7, 2008)

He should be getting Brock Lesnar's 2002 push of course.


----------



## johnnyshear (Jan 19, 2011)

sharkboy22 said:


> People are gonna hate me for saying this, worse yet of all sections this one, but ROH weekly was/is absolute shit. Unless Meltzer gives the award based on the wrestling alone on the show, then I agree with him....for the most part. But then again, it's not like RAW, Smackdown or iMPACT put up that much of a fight.
> 
> Also how does TNA second attempt at the Monday Night Wars not get Worst Promotional Tactic? Talk about a flop. At least Stand Up For WWE garnered some interest and even won an award.
> 
> ...


fpalm


----------



## obby (May 19, 2009)

So didint Santino get best gimmick 2 years in a row? Now he isint on the list, does Meltzer not like him anymore because he's face?


----------



## sharkboy22 (Feb 13, 2010)

johnnyshear said:


> fpalm


Care to elaborate?


----------



## JuviJuiceIsLoose (Mar 27, 2009)

sharkboy22 said:


> All in all a good list but I believe Meltzer's man crush for Daniel Bryan is getting ridiculous, he hasn't done anything ground breaking for the majority of 2010 to deserve his award.


So, I guess guys like Dibiase Jr., Miz, and Dolph Ziggler having the best matches of their careers against Daniel Bryan doesn't mean a damn thing?

Those guys aren't known for putting on great matches.


----------



## SuperDuperSonic (Apr 7, 2008)

sharkboy22 said:


> Care to elaborate?


Cena had MULTIPLE great matches, not just one, and didn't give shitty delivery on his promos. He also proved by the end of the year to be THE number one star in the company, leaving Orton, HHH, Rey, and Taker in the dust. Cena is the only guy in the company who can single-handedly move any kind of business whatsoever. The fact that he can barely move business is more than anyone else can muster.


----------



## SHIRLEY (Jun 9, 2009)

JuviJuiceIsLoose said:


> So, I guess guys like Dibiase Jr., Miz, and Dolph Ziggler having the best matches of their careers against Daniel Bryan doesn't mean a damn thing?
> 
> Those guys aren't known for putting on great matches.


Exactly. Dolph Ziggler's wrestling for a world title now, in large part because Bryan made him look like the second coming of Curt Hennig.


----------



## GOD OF CUNT (Jan 9, 2008)

In fairness, Ziggler's fucking great in his own right. Might not be The King of Star Ratings, but he was one of the best guys in the company last year (I'd say he was arguably top 3).

And the majority of 2010 Ziggler was better than the majority of WWF Curt Hennig, period.


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## JuviJuiceIsLoose (Mar 27, 2009)

Andy3000 said:


> And the majority of 2010 Ziggler was better than the majority of WWF Curt Hennig, period.


Wat???


----------



## Caligula (Jul 3, 2006)

what Ziggler matches should I get Andy


----------



## SuperDuperSonic (Apr 7, 2008)

Andy3000 said:


> In fairness, Ziggler's fucking great in his own right. Might not be The King of Star Ratings, but he was one of the best guys in the company last year (I'd say he was arguably top 3).
> 
> And the majority of 2010 Ziggler was better than the majority of WWF Curt Hennig, period.


Ziggler will likely never have stand-the-test-of-time classics such as Bret vs. Perfect and Bock vs. Henning.


----------



## Yeah1993 (Nov 20, 2008)

Andy3000 said:


> And the majority of 2010 Ziggler was better than the majority of WWF Curt Hennig, period.


Really? I mean I think Ziggs can be really good and I don't think Perfect is amazing or anything anymore and some of his heel spots look pretty damn stupid but you really think Dolph's 2010 in majority is better than Hennig's whole tenure?

@sonic I think he meant WWF exclusive in regard to Hennig because he was honestly proabaly a lot better as a face in AWA and elsewhere.


----------



## Rush (May 1, 2007)

redeadening said:


> Who the fuck is that jabroni from UFC who beat WWE stars to win best on the stick?


Chael Sonnen owns on the mic tbf. 












biggest troll the world has seen. love him for it.



The BoogeyMan said:


> Agreed. UFC chooses their fights based on what makes money, who is similar to who, where they are in the rankings etc. but WWE has to do twice that amount of work on a week-to-week basis. I'd compare it more to (UFC) casting who stars in the film and (WWE) writing the whole fucking thing.
> 
> WWE alone has 5 hours of material to put out per week and they seemingly have control over all of it. With UFC, I get the feeling that whatever happens is because of the fighters, not the bookers.
> 
> ...


You're undervaluing the work Silva does but you're right, its a completely different type of booking. Shouldn't be in the same category, likewise with feud of the year.


----------



## GOD OF CUNT (Jan 9, 2008)

Feech La Manna said:


> what Ziggler matches should I get Andy


vs. Masters from Superstars, vs. Goldust from the Cow Palace (handheld that was posted on Segunda Caida months ago), 2 Mysterio matches from Smackdown! (one from August, one from February, I think), vs. Kane at the start of the year, vs. Christian from Superstars, and the 2 Danielson matches are supposedly really good-great although I haven't seen them myself yet.

That's all just 2010 stuff. There's some 2009 stuff I thought was good as well, but I haven't seen as much from 2009, and I didn't think he got legit very good until last year anyway.



Yeah1993 said:


> Really? I mean I think Ziggs can be really good and I don't think Perfect is amazing or anything anymore and some of his heel spots look pretty damn stupid but you really think Dolph's 2010 in majority is better than Hennig's whole tenure?


I hate tossing "overrated", but man, the love Hennig gets is crazy. 

I like his matches with Bock from the AWA and I don't even mind that Lawler match where Jerry wins the World Title (match would've been better if Fargo wasn't the guest ref' to fuck with everything). 

The Bret match from King of the Ring is probably a top 3 US MOTY. The stuff with Doink is pretty good that year, too. The Flair Loser Leaves Town match was garbage, though.

I should've specifically said *heel* Hennig in WWF. I can generally dig face Hennig (only match of those I mentioned where he wasn't face was the Lawler match, and I like that more for the moment than the match, primarily because Hennig isn't very compelling working on top... and Fargo was a fuck as well).

Is there really that much daylight between heel Ziggler right now and heel Hennig from around '88-'91? Looking at what they do they're really similar. Both have the cartoony bumps, but Ziggler is far less ridiculous with them than Hennig. Ziggler is far less ridiculous with them than Michaels was, too. 

They both do some stuff on offence that's similar, like that running neck snapper thing where the opponent is seated on the mat. Honestly, if you watch the five best Dolph Ziggler matches from 2010 and the five best Curt Hennig matches from 1989 (both would be a couple years into their "run" at this point) I don't see how you could point out anything that makes Hennig clearly better.

Which guys had/have the best matches isn't as important as what they're actually *doing* in the matches. Comparing 1989 WWF to 2010 micro-managed WWE in terms of the "quality of matches" isn't really fair (although I don't there are very many good 1989 Hennig matches, anyway. He's definitely not special in any of the Bret matches).


----------



## Horselover Fat (May 18, 2006)

andy what were you doing watching handheld cam dolph ziggler matches in the first place


----------



## reDREDD (Oct 12, 2008)

Ah yes, God bless Shawn Michael's ridiculous bumps. I especially love that one time when Undertaker punched him and he flew to the top of the ramp to the door of the In Your House set.

Either way, Ziggler rocks. He's the future. Incredible work ethic. Everytime he gets a chance he makes a miracle out of it.


----------



## GOD OF CUNT (Jan 9, 2008)

DIAMOND DALLAS TRASH said:


> andy what were you doing watching handheld cam dolph ziggler matches in the first place


He was wrestling Goldust man.


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## Bubz (Jul 19, 2007)

> Ah yes, God bless Shawn Michael's ridiculous bumps. I especially love that one time when Undertaker punched him and he flew to the top of the ramp to the door of the In Your House set.
> 
> *Either way, Ziggler rocks. He's the future. Incredible work ethic. Everytime he gets a chance he makes a miracle out of it.*


I agree, he is the only other person in WWE besides Bryan that you can count on to put on a good match with most people. He is definately the future of that company, he works his ass off and i think they realise it as well.


----------



## GOD OF CUNT (Jan 9, 2008)

He also makes Edge's feathery, piffly spear look great. I don't know how many people in the fucking world, never mind the company, could do that.


----------



## Tarfu (Jun 18, 2008)

Proud to say I've been a believer since day one (well, technically day one). When he came out to his awfully silly yet somehow totally awesome first theme, introduced himself and his queer-ass name, but then continued to kick Batista's ass and look like a million bucks doing it - that was it. It's amazing how easily he's managed to overcome everything else by just being an ace in the ring and working his ass off. 

Glad to see this much appreciation thrown around for the guy (and in the OW section of all places).


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## SuperDuperSonic (Apr 7, 2008)

bubz123 said:


> I agree, he is the only other person in WWE besides Bryan that you can count on to put on a good match with most people. He is definately the future of that company, he works his ass off and i think they realise it as well.


Christian and Rey Mysterio say hi.


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## Yeah1993 (Nov 20, 2008)

Andy3000 said:


> I hate tossing "overrated", but man, the love Hennig gets is crazy.
> 
> I like his matches with Bock from the AWA and I don't even mind that Lawler match where Jerry wins the World Title (match would've been better if Fargo wasn't the guest ref' to fuck with everything).
> 
> ...


I will admit I haven't watched a huge chunk of Hennig since falling out of love with him but I still doubt I'd think Ziggler is better. Agreed about the bumps though, the one where the opponent throws Hennig by his hair so he can "slide" towards the ropes is really bad.


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## DFUSCMAN (Mar 13, 2010)

Andy3000 said:


> He also makes Edge's feathery, piffly spear look great. I don't know how many people in the fucking world, never mind the company, could do that.


I'm pretty sure sydal and danielson could make edge's spear look like a shotgun wound. I know sydal would because he makes normal moves look like he just got shot out of a cannon and folded up like an accordion.

But ziggler really impressed me this year, he's the 2nd best wrestler in wwe besides danielson right now.

But nobody can touch danielson as best in the world. It's just a fact people have to enjoy


----------



## Bubz (Jul 19, 2007)

> Christian and Rey Mysterio say hi.


Yeah good call. I actually completely forgot about Christian, the guys awesome, Ziggler is just as good though IMO.


----------



## SuperDuperSonic (Apr 7, 2008)

Ziggler would not get ***+ matches out of Drew McIntyre and Tommy Dreamer.


----------



## Caligula (Jul 3, 2006)

Andy3000 said:


> vs. Masters from Superstars, vs. Goldust from the Cow Palace (handheld that was posted on Segunda Caida months ago), 2 Mysterio matches from Smackdown! (one from August, one from February, I think), vs. Kane at the start of the year, vs. Christian from Superstars, and the 2 Danielson matches are supposedly really good-great although I haven't seen them myself yet.
> 
> That's all just 2010 stuff. There's some 2009 stuff I thought was good as well, but I haven't seen as much from 2009, and I didn't think he got legit very good until last year anyway.
> 
> ...


only one of those I saw was the PPV match against Danielson which was pretty good, nothing special. Dolph whiffing a superkick like shawn michaels is the only thing I can remember about it right now honestly. I'll try to find time to watch some of those other ones


----------



## Bubz (Jul 19, 2007)

> Ziggler would not get ***+ matches out of Drew McIntyre and Tommy Dreamer.


I think he could out of McIntyre, we have never got the chance to see though as both have always been heels, working as a face he probably could.


----------



## GOD OF CUNT (Jan 9, 2008)

Yeah1993 said:


> I will admit I haven't watched a huge chunk of Hennig since falling out of love with him but I still doubt I'd think Ziggler is better. Agreed about the bumps though, the one where the opponent throws Hennig by his hair so he can "slide" towards the ropes is really bad.


I probably like Hennig less than most people, anyway.

The bump where he gets irish whipped into the corner and does a flip somersault bump forward after hitting the turnbuckle is the worst. I like dudes stooging and bumping like crazy, and against guys like Hogan and Warrior I don't really mind it, but when you're working babyface against Flair, that's just a retarded spot. 



DFUSCMAN said:


> I'm pretty sure sydal and danielson could make edge's spear look like a shotgun wound. I know sydal would because he makes normal moves look like he just got shot out of a cannon and folded up like an accordion.


Yeah, Bourne definitely could.



superdupersonic said:


> Ziggler would not get ***+ matches out of Drew McIntyre and Tommy Dreamer.


What's wrong with McIntyre? Every McIntyre match I tracked down last year was good. Granted, I was only watching the stuff that was pimped to me, but I don't see how you can lump him in with fucking Dreamer. 

Christian was awesome in their matches and I'd say he was the better of the two during them, but no way were they all him. 

Christian being the "catalyst" for Drew "putting it together" is probably a fair point, but it's not like he had to drag him kicking and screaming to a "*** match".


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## dele (Feb 21, 2005)

Jethro said:


> It's cause it's deathmatch wrestling. Hardcore/deathmatch wrestling doesn't equal "good brawlers". I understand he doesn't follow it because it's just men ruining their bodies. Not to mention it makes wrestling look shit.


BJW's death match wrestling, like I said, is better than most indy wrestling in America. This isn't Ian Rotten's Meth House of fun. Hell, it makes the best of ECW look, well, meh...

Also, count me in as one of Davey's haterz. He simply is capitalizing on marks who miss Krispin Wah.


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## seancarleton77 (Jul 4, 2006)

dele said:


> Also, count me in as one of Davey's haterz. He simply is capitalizing on marks who miss Krispin Wah.


I do think Davey is a little like Chris Benoit. But I think it's because he is easy to get behind, like a Rocky type character (he takes as much punishment as Rocky sometimes, that's for sure). I'm not the biggest Davey mark, but I do like the man and I enjoy most of his recent work in the ring. I hated Davey 2005-2007 and I didn't really care for him until 2009.

Davey is good, but he is not a god.


----------



## SHIRLEY (Jun 9, 2009)

dele said:


> BJW's death match wrestling, like I said, is better than most indy wrestling in America. This isn't Ian Rotten's Meth House of fun. Hell, it makes the best of ECW look, well, meh...
> 
> Also, count me in as one of Davey's haterz. He simply is capitalizing on marks who miss Krispin Wah.


Well how do you account for people, like me, that liked Davey before Benoit died?

...and...no, BJW makes ECW look even more perfectly put together.


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## DFUSCMAN (Mar 13, 2010)

I'm trying to have a discussion in the morrison is the best in ring performer in the wwe hands down thread.

Some guy said danielson maybe had good in ring psychology..........i about spit my water all over my computer. Danielson is still the best in the world in my opinion.

They seriously believer morrison is better than danielson. I'm dumbfounded.


----------



## obby (May 19, 2009)

DFUSCMAN said:


> But ziggler really impressed me this year, he's the 2nd best wrestler in wwe besides danielson right now.


In WWE, I'd say he isin't quite as good as Jericho, but he's a close third in terms of in ring ability.


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## DFUSCMAN (Mar 13, 2010)

bob2 said:


> In WWE, I'd say he isin't quite as good as Jericho, but he's a close third in terms of in ring ability.


I wasn't counting jericho since he isn't wrestling right now. Ziggler is 2nd with no jericho.


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## obby (May 19, 2009)

DFUSCMAN said:


> I wasn't counting jericho since he isn't wrestling right now. Ziggler is 2nd with no jericho.


I see. Do you think Kaval is a better wrestler than Ziggler, since he was in for a while?


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## dele (Feb 21, 2005)

Shirley Crabtree III said:


> ...and...no, BJW makes ECW look even more perfectly put together.


How do you reason that? BJW's hardcore product is miles ahead of ECW. Sure, ECW had some of the best technical wrestlers ever for a short time (Eddie, Benoit, Malenko, Austin) but that doesn't make them a better overall promotion than BJW by a long shot.


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## Bubz (Jul 19, 2007)

Its a completely different type of Hardcore product though, i don't see how you can compare them they are completely different. BJW do death matches, ECW never did anything like that to my knowledge.


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## dele (Feb 21, 2005)

The "death match" is simply a Japanese invention that refers to a hardcore match.


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## SHIRLEY (Jun 9, 2009)

dele said:


> How do you reason that? BJW's hardcore product is miles ahead of ECW. Sure, ECW had some of the best technical wrestlers ever for a short time (Eddie, Benoit, Malenko, Austin) but that doesn't make them a better overall promotion than BJW by a long shot.


Your rationale sounds like its that BJW has more blood, more spottiness and more wacky foreign objects, therefore it's better. Mine is that the overall ECW product is far more intricately crafted than pretty much anything ever in wrestling. The fact that ECW was a hardcore promotion is neither here nor there really. It could just as easily have been a women's comedy promotion and it still would have been done to perfection.


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## Spartanlax (Jan 20, 2006)

Shirley Crabtree III said:


> Your rationale sounds like its that BJW has more blood, more spottiness and more wacky foreign objects, therefore it's better. Mine is that the overall ECW product is far more intricately crafted than pretty much anything ever in wrestling. The fact that ECW was a hardcore promotion is neither here nor there really. It could just as easily have been a women's comedy promotion and it still would have been done to perfection.


Holy shit.

What?!


----------



## Cynic (Jan 31, 2010)

"Stand Up For WWE" winning disgusting promotional tactic is the best thing on this list. Dead on. What a joke that was.


----------



## Kapik1337 (Oct 23, 2010)

Dolph Ziggler is the 2nd best wrestler in WWE? Really? Suppose Daniel Bryan is the 1st... There's still plenty of better then Ziggler wrestlers there. CM Punk, Rey Mysterio, Evan Bourne, John Morrison, Undertaker, Christian, etc... I wouldn't put him in top 10, actually.


----------



## johnnyshear (Jan 19, 2011)

Kapik1337 said:


> Dolph Ziggler is the 2nd best wrestler in WWE? Really? Suppose Daniel Bryan is the 1st... There's still plenty of better then Ziggler wrestlers there. CM Punk, Rey Mysterio, Evan Bourne, John Morrison, Undertaker, Christian, etc... I wouldn't put him in top 10, actually.


Most of those were injured for a lot of the year.


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## Kapik1337 (Oct 23, 2010)

johnnyshear said:


> Most of those were injured for a lot of the year.


Fair enough, but I've just listed wrestlers who are clearly better. Then there's William Regal, Kofi Kingston, Jack Swagger, Cody Rhodes, Yoshi Tatsu, Vladimir Kozlov, Tyson Kidd, Sheamus, Justin Gabriel, R-Truth... Dolph Ziggler doesn't really stand out.


----------



## wrestlingfan91 (Aug 16, 2006)

His Matches beg to differ.


----------



## Kapik1337 (Oct 23, 2010)

What, he had a couple of good (by WWE standards) matches against Daniel Bryan and Kaval? Big deal. To carry someone to a 3-star match, they could very well wrestle a plastic mannequin.


----------



## geraldinhio (Feb 5, 2010)

Kapik1337 said:


> What, he had a couple of good (by WWE standards) matches against Daniel Bryan and Kaval? Big deal. To carry someone to a 3-star match, they could very well wrestle a plastic mannequin.


Ziggler is awesome ,such a immense worker.Had some of WWE's best matches this year.His matches with Bryan ,Kaval ,Rey ,Edge etc but he didn't carry anyone to a match like you said.


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## wrestlingfan91 (Aug 16, 2006)

Also against Edge and Cena. The thing is i really don't like the Indy Style Wrestling, i like the WWE Style Matches and Ziggler is great in them.


----------



## Bubz (Jul 19, 2007)

> Kofi Kingston, Jack Swagger, Cody Rhodes, Yoshi Tatsu, Vladimir Kozlov, Tyson Kidd, Sheamus, Justin Gabriel, R-Truth


Don't be silly. NONE of them are better than him. R-Truth?? That guys shite.


----------



## dele (Feb 21, 2005)

Shirley Crabtree III said:


> Your rationale sounds like its that BJW has more blood, more spottiness and more wacky foreign objects, therefore it's better. Mine is that the overall ECW product is far more intricately crafted than pretty much anything ever in wrestling. The fact that ECW was a hardcore promotion is neither here nor there really. It could just as easily have been a women's comedy promotion and it still would have been done to perfection.


Holy shit that made my head hurt. I'm going to go out on a limb and say you've watched less than 3 BJW matches in your life. What makes BJW better than ECW is simply this: the wrestlers for BJW could work a **** match without the use of any gimmicks whatsoever. You can't tell me that Dreamer, Sabu, Sandman et al could even come close to that.

I would post a match here, but I know you couldn't be bothered to watch it because, well,

FUCKING ROH-BOTS... HOW DO THEY WORK???


----------



## Tarfu (Jun 18, 2008)

Kapik1337 said:


> Fair enough, but I've just listed wrestlers who are clearly better. Then there's William Regal, Kofi Kingston, Jack Swagger, Cody Rhodes, Yoshi Tatsu, Vladimir Kozlov, Tyson Kidd, Sheamus, Justin Gabriel, R-Truth... Dolph Ziggler doesn't really stand out.


You make me sick. 

Elaborate! Considering some of the names listed, you better write me a fucking essay.


----------



## Kapik1337 (Oct 23, 2010)

I haven't said all of them are better. What I mean is that all of them are about the same level. Solid mid-carders, people who can actually wrestle instead of blabbering and eating steroids. But they don't stand out. Nobody would be talking about their matches if they weren't in WWE. Dolph Ziggler vs. Daniel Bryan? Nice matches, but nowhere near as good as Bryan Danielson's matches vs. Shingo or Munenori Sawa, for example. And not only because WWE are limiting their wrestlers in the ring.


----------



## seabs (Jun 16, 2007)

*Struggle to understand how anyone can knock Ziggler atm. Easily had one of the best years last year for WWE and he hardly ever puts on a match that isn't at the least watchable. Hard to believe it's the same guy who was in the Spirit Squad and was Kerwin White's caddy. Persistance pays off. 

BJW has a really bad image as deathmatch promotion which so shadows out how awesome Strong BJW is. I know me because I viewed it as a tacky deathmatch promotion at one point but if you dont like the hardcore stuff then just stick to anything with DAISUKE SEKIMOTO in. Especially if it's got really young guys you've never heard of in too. If only NOAH could make a regular guy a star in 20 minutes like they have. It's all about perception and the general image isn't the best. *


----------



## SHIRLEY (Jun 9, 2009)

dele said:


> Holy shit that made my head hurt. I'm going to go out on a limb and say you've watched less than 3 BJW matches in your life. What makes BJW better than ECW is simply this: the wrestlers for BJW could work a **** match without the use of any gimmicks whatsoever. You can't tell me that Dreamer, Sabu, Sandman et al could even come close to that.
> 
> I would post a match here, but I know you couldn't be bothered to watch it because, well,
> 
> FUCKING ROH-BOTS... HOW DO THEY WORK???


I've watched the crap that you've tried to get people into on here before and it's the usual nonsense - no psychology, no stories, just a list of stuff happening. 

I don't know what you believe a 4*+ match is but Dreamer, Sabu and Sandman were all able to connect with their chosen audience using their charisma. I'm fully aware that Dreamer and Sandman _were_ both physically limited and don't compare to the Eddy Guerreros, Rob Van Dams and the Shane Douglases but, nevertheless, they did their job. At the end of the day, neither ECW or BJW ever traded in the currency of workrate star ratings anyway. So that's a moot point.

The reason why I haven't watched a lot of BJW is because I find it embarrassing. Guys like Sekimoto are the exception, rather than the rule. There's no point playing that "the wrestlers _could_ do x,y and z" card when you're discussing a gimmick-centric promotion. Even if they _could_, they don't. They hit each other with props to give teenagers hard-ons. The company has a cheap, one-dimensional identity (unlike ECW which was a complex bit of marketing genius).

If you mark for car crashes good for you, but don't claim that anyone watches Big Japan when they're looking for thought-provoking 5* classics. You're just being pretentious.


----------



## Yeah1993 (Nov 20, 2008)

Shirley Crabtree III said:


> I've watched the crap that you've tried to get people into on here before and it's the usual nonsense - no psychology, no stories, just a list of stuff happening.


I've never watched a BJW match and I'm not taking sides here but you pretty much just described ECW.


----------



## The REAL MP (Mar 4, 2010)

Shane Douglases? Are we talking about promos here, because that's all he was good for.


----------



## Yeah1993 (Nov 20, 2008)

I don't see the love for Douglas either. I've enjoyed one of his matches ever and that was a tag match in WCW where he was sharing a ring with Barry Windham, Brian Pillman, and Ricky fuckin' Steamboat. Not big on his promos at all.


----------



## The REAL MP (Mar 4, 2010)

Yeah, ECW is a lot like Chikara to me. Great, great booking and storylines, but the actual in-ring product leaves a lot to be desired.


----------



## SHIRLEY (Jun 9, 2009)

Yeah1993 said:


> I've never watched a BJW match and I'm not taking sides here but you pretty much just described ECW.


ECW was one big angle. It was the ultimate in wrestling psychology. Heyman created a entire counter culture in the minds of his audience.


----------



## Bubz (Jul 19, 2007)

I'm not a fan of BJW from what i have seen, i was a fan of ECW even after guys like Eddie/Benoit left when they had guys like Tanaka/Awesome feuding, they created some of the most enjoyable hardcore matches i have ever seen, i still enjoy all of the RVD/Lynn matches. The Sabu/RVD/Taz/Funk/Foley matches where always enjoyable. But on the other hand you had guys like New Jack and the Sandman being absolute tools. But for the most part ECW did have good psychology and was'nt just "random things happening". The feuds where amazing as was the booking. Heyman was a genius. The guys also did'nt have to put eachother through glass and numerous other stupid things to have a good hardcore match, a chair was good enough for some. I guess people bleeding from head to toe and not giving a crap about it after it happens just is'nt for me. And you really need to stop throwing that ROH-BOT term around, its silly, i hate things like that, i hate "mark" as well. Its getting redonculous.


----------



## GOD OF CUNT (Jan 9, 2008)

Young babyface Douglas teaming with Ricky Steamboat was really good. Don't care for ECW Douglas or... basically any Douglas post-babyface in late '80s/early '90s WCW, but you could tell he was good in that role. He was pretty green around that time, but he wasn't bad at all (can't really get past the fact he was working with Steamboat for a decent stretch, though. That kind of thing helps).

The BJW/ECW comparison seems pretty strange to me. ECW was never a "deathmatch" promotion. 

At some point I'll probably nerd out like a total freak and re-visit the ECW period, because they have that stigma of being a promotion with a bunch of good stuff outside the ring and very little worthwhile _in_ it. I've seen enough pimping of stuff from guys whose tastes in wrestling are similar to my own to think that's not even remotely close to being the case. 

BJW being some freak show promotion that's geared towards goretards isn't the case, either. The BJW deathmatch fans aren't all weirdos that get wet for guys plastering each other with light tubes. I can understand why someone wouldn't be into them (they're just kinda "there" for me; don't hate them, don't love them), but the idea that it's a promotion full of no talent hacks with the odd Sekimoto here and there is silly (fuck Sekimoto, btw). Deathmatches have their "own psychology", just like any gimmick match. You can't work a good deathmatch with a ton of nasty looking shit on its own.


----------



## dele (Feb 21, 2005)

Andy3000 said:


> BJW being some freak show promotion that's geared towards goretards isn't the case, either. The BJW deathmatch fans aren't all weirdos that get wet for guys plastering each other with light tubes. I can understand why someone wouldn't be into them (they're just kinda "there" for me; don't hate them, don't love them), but the idea that it's a promotion full of no talent hacks with the odd Sekimoto here and there is silly (fuck Sekimoto, btw). Deathmatches have their "own psychology", just like any gimmick match. You can't work a good deathmatch with a ton of nasty looking shit on its own.


Best explanation yet.


----------



## Kapik1337 (Oct 23, 2010)

Andy3000 said:


> (fuck Sekimoto, btw)


Why?


----------



## GOD OF CUNT (Jan 9, 2008)

I'm not a Sekimoto fan. I understand why folks dig him, though.


----------

