# JR vents about wrestling moves: "That evolution of the business is bs...everybody does the same fucking spot."



## fabi1982 (Jun 28, 2011)

Cutler showing why he should be Dark4life and better stop tweeting...

JR is 100% right, its all about „holy shit“ and „this is awesome“ now.


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## patpat (Feb 17, 2019)

Jr is 100% right and cultler proved why he is a jobber. Take a look at aew's main event scene and tell me how many flippy shitters you see exactly lmao. Almost none


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## famicommander (Jan 17, 2010)

Gold Medal winning vaults:









Athletics that are based on choreographed demonstrations get flashier over time. Welcome to planet earth.


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## Prosper (Mar 25, 2015)

famicommander said:


> Gold Medal winning vaults:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


LOL this is an accurate representation of how times have changed.



patpat said:


> Jr is 100% right and cultler proved why he is a jobber. Take a look at aew's main event scene and tell me how many flippy shitters you see exactly lmao. Almost none


You don't even have many flippy guys in AEW's mid-card. The tag division is where the flips run wild. The rest of the card is usually flip free though. Compare this to NXT which is ALL high spots 100% of the time.

One spot that I wish would go away forever though is when a group of guys just stand there waiting and looking up for someone to jump on them. Looks faker than fake.


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## El Hammerstone (Jan 11, 2020)

JR is 100% on the money, I can't remember a thing about most of these matches 5 minutes after they're over. I have no issue with high spots, but they really don't mean a damn thing anymore; WCW's cruiserweight division and the early TNA X-division for example did a great job at blending high flying and great chain wrestling. At no point in last week's Bucks vs. TH2 match did it even remotely resemble any kind of actual struggle.


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## One Shed (Jan 7, 2014)

JR is exactly right, and saying EXACTLY what many of us on here say often. When you water down your moves they mean less and less. The people who are supposed to hate each other standing around with their arms up is one of the dumbest things they do. It is a CRUTCH for people to use when they have nothing original to contribute and have not actually bothered to learn how to work. Expertise is a dying concept.

I wonder who I should listen to more? Legend who has been working in the business since before I was born or jobber who rolls a D&D die and has a competition on who sucks most?


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## rbl85 (Nov 21, 2017)

An easy way to make this spot look better is just focus the camera on the guy who's going to jump over the rope, that way you see the other wrestlers at the last moment and you don't have the image of them waiting for it.


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## the_hound (Jun 14, 2016)

i don't mind those spots, what i hate about them is the make it way too obvious during multi man matches or a mass run ins and then you have the camera man all focused on the guys who's all on the outside with guys who are meant to be hitting each other are looking up towards the ring where the guy who's doing the dive hasn't started to even do the spot or if they climb the top, the camera is focused on the guys all congregating in the one spot waiting for big dive.

wargame with pat doing the big spot, asuka doing hers and then the constantly every week in aew it happens.

as i said i don't mind it, just get the camera guy to focus on something else rather than the group or the guy doing the spot.


rbl85 said:


> An easy way to make this spot look better is just focus the camera on the guy who's going to jump over the rope, that way you see the other wrestlers at the last moment and you don't have the image of them waiting for it.


nah, you still see it especially if the camera is focused on the ring, all you need to do is either pan the camera to the crowd, manager or commentators.


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## The XL 2 (Sep 13, 2016)

Jim is right, but he's fighting a losing battle trying to reason with these idiots. Lmao at Brandon Cutler having the gall to publicly talk back to JR. That jobber should be lucky that AEW is run by a money mark who lets the elite hire all of their friends.


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## VIP86 (Oct 10, 2019)

Two Sheds said:


> I wonder who I should listen to more? Legend who has been working in the business since before I was born or jobber who rolls a D&D die and has a competition on who sucks most?


oh man, i almost had an orgasm because of this line.
so satisfying
i would love to see a fanboy or a wannabe wrestler argue with this


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## InexorableJourney (Sep 10, 2016)

Wasn't JR booking the matches when these moves became obsolete, I say that because he said he was booking at the time it happened.

The first person to kick out of Jakes DDT and so set the prescient was 'Stone Cold' Steve Austin, but as he's JR's boy I bet he thought that was fine at the time, crotchety old fker.


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## Stellar (May 30, 2016)

The only spot that drives me nuts is when a group of wrestlers meet up to one spot on the outside of the ring to catch the wrestler that decides to dive over the top rope. That has been so over done in wrestling for a long time.

JR is right. Yes, things change over time. The stuff that was exciting 40 years ago isn't as exciting now. Still no excuse to do a bunch of physical stuff that makes zero sense in the match. When a super kick doesn't finish anyone but a move that is mostly flipping around in the air before falling on the person does.


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## One Shed (Jan 7, 2014)

VIP86 said:


> oh man, i almost had an orgasm because of this line.
> so satisfying
> i would love to see a fanboy or a wannabe wrestler argue with this


Oh, they will.


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## ceeder (May 10, 2010)

Imagine a company where a useless fuck like Brandon Cutler can try to publicly humiliate and talk back to a Hall of Famer.

People really need to be put in their places.


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## .christopher. (Jan 14, 2014)

"Kinda right"? He's 100% spot on the fucking money. X marks the spot.

Also, I have no idea who this Brandon Cutler is, but he needs fucking off. Having a dumb motherfucker like him polluting the business needs sorting ASAP.


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## izhack111 (Aug 9, 2016)

Why is JR still in Aew? They dont even use him right ffs they are clueless


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## Not Lying (Sep 9, 2013)

100% right. Those spots should be very rare and need to look natural, brutal and a bit stiff.


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## Dickhead1990 (Aug 31, 2016)

JR's right, though this is the wrestling scene as a whole. Does that make it less exciting to watch? Not really. There were moves that were spammed back in the day too. For example, the Supplex was once a finisher and has since become a transitional move, along with various types of clotheslines. The Spinebuster is another move that got spammed in 00's WWE (and beyond) too, along with the German supplex. DDT's have been transitional moves for over 20 years by now, if not more. Not to mention, how many people used the Chokeslam in the late 90's/early 00's?

The one that upsets me the most is the use of the Canadian Destroyer. That should be a finisher for sure, as it was when Petey Williams used it.


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## Dickhead1990 (Aug 31, 2016)

izhack111 said:


> Why is JR still in Aew? They dont even use him right ffs they are clueless


He could always go back to WWE to be fired again.


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## the_flock (Nov 23, 2016)

JR is a an absolute legend. I seriously can't wait for him to vent once he leaves AEW.


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## Joe Gill (Jun 29, 2019)

bottom line is that modern flippy bullshit wrestling has not created any mega stars. Its just a fact that guys like Hogan, Austin Rock etc were bigger names and bigger draws and they never did that shit. If wrestling today was still creating mega stars then JR would just be a hater... but its a fact that flippy choreographed shit only has a limited appeal and most of the those wrestlers are long forgotten 5 years from now.


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## the_flock (Nov 23, 2016)

prosperwithdeen said:


> One spot that I wish would go away forever though is when a group of guys just stand there waiting and looking up for someone to jump on them. Looks faker than fake.


I also hate it when they lay on the floor or table for what seems like an eternity waiting for someone to get their balance on the top turnbuckle.


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## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

I have zero interest in watching guys do shit i can do myself

these guys are ”superheroes” to me, give me flashy moves, finisher spams and glorious power moves and tell a captivating story along the way

you’re competing for eyeballs against Epic fight comic book movies, big budget tv, dramatic MMA and over the top reality tv

act like it


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## ireekofawesumnes (Mar 4, 2017)

famicommander said:


> Gold Medal winning vaults:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I gotta say although I agree with JR mostly this is a DAMN good rebuttal


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## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

famicommander said:


> Gold Medal winning vaults:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


elegantly point made

A+


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## the_flock (Nov 23, 2016)

LifeInCattleClass said:


> elegantly point made
> 
> A+


Fighting is different to gymnastics. In Boxing, people still get knocked out the same. In MMA, people still tap out or get knocked out. That hasn't changed in decades. 

Personally I can go back and watch a supposed limited wrestling match from the 80s and its infinitely better than guys flip flopping everywhere, because they tell a story, they have chemistry, intensity and look a million Bucks. 

Hulk Hogan hitting the big boot followed by the leg drop, will be remembered forever. These guys doing a thousand flips won't be remembered next year, let alone in 30 years time.


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## Buhalovski (Jul 24, 2015)

LifeInCattleClass said:


> I have zero interest in watching guys do shit i can do myself
> 
> these guys are ”superheroes” to me, give me flashy moves, finisher spams and glorious power moves and tell a captivating story along the way
> 
> ...


Can you make the crowd care for you tho? Flashy moves =/= in-ring psichology.


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## RapShepard (Jun 20, 2014)

If I was Tony we'd have a big talk about his lack of respect for me and my company who have been nothing, but nice to him. He was never this openly lippy at his last job. He's not wrong, but sheesh lol


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## shandcraig (Mar 23, 2008)

we live in a time when you speak logic you're either grumpy or wrong. We can continue to pretend we live in this fake reality of except what life is really like. we must pretend we're all happy go lucky equal all get along family.

The innocent with Anna Jay is a perfect example of how fucking stupid all this shit is. Entire internet full of men drooling over this person based off her looks and shes green as fuck. JR makes a mild comment pretty much saying that its an attractive person and acknowledging the main factual reason shes around in the first place. Utter stupidity


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## VIP86 (Oct 10, 2019)

comparing PRO wrestling with gymnastics instead of comparing it with olympic wrestling or a legitimate fighting sport ? 🤦‍♂️ 
legends who created the history of PRO wrestling are turning in their graves


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## RapShepard (Jun 20, 2014)

shandcraig said:


> we live in a time when you speak logic you're either grumpy or wrong. We can continue to pretend we live in this fake reality of except what life is really like. we must pretend we're all happy go lucky equal all get along family.


But some things are best said behind closed doors. He has a great obvious point. If I'm the guy cutting his check we'd need to have a talk though.


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## shandcraig (Mar 23, 2008)

izhack111 said:


> Why is JR still in Aew? They dont even use him right ffs they are clueless


they would rather feature someone with a horrible voice jerking himself off over every move a wrestler does in aew


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## VIP86 (Oct 10, 2019)

RapShepard said:


> But some things are best said behind closed doors. He has a great obvious point. If I'm the guy cutting his check we'd need to have a talk though.


how do you know he didn't say it over and over behind closed doors and was disrespectfully ignored ?


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## DammitChrist (Apr 3, 2016)

LifeInCattleClass said:


> I have zero interest in watching guys do shit i can do myself
> 
> these guys are ”superheroes” to me, give me flashy moves, finisher spams and glorious power moves and tell a captivating story along the way
> 
> ...


Jeez, you’re right. I don’t even mind AEW’s matches most of the time. 

Most of the high-flying stunts, and spots happen in the tag matches anyway; but they’re still generally harmless in the end. 

They could certainly do with protecting multiple signatures in order for them to end future matches, and do with avoiding the spam of many cool maneuvers/spots for better long-lasting impact. However, I still don’t think the wrestling business is “getting killed” or “dying” because of this. 

Honestly, at times, this almost feels like the boring, anti-workrate circle jerk against the current wrestlers in the modern era. 

I STILL can’t believe that so many folks get so ‘triggered’ and pissed off whenever a wrestler decides to do a flip. It’s a cool visual bonus for the audience, but there’s no need for some people to get all outraged over FLIPS 😂


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## RapShepard (Jun 20, 2014)

VIP86 said:


> how do you know he didn't say it over and over behind closed doors and was disrespectfully ignored ?


If they didn't listen then ol well suck it up and call the show like you're paid to do. Is what I'm telling him to do if I'm Tony.


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## Dark Emperor (Jul 31, 2007)

RapShepard said:


> If I was Tony we'd have a big talk about his lack of respect for me and my company who have been nothing, but nice to him. He was never this openly lippy at his last job. He's not wrong, but sheesh lol


Haha he's got old and knows Tony ain't a ruthless boss like Vince. He wouldn't dare fire a legend. SO he does at he pleases whilst pocketing Tony's cash.

Tony can't even fire the useless talent he has on the books and claims it's because of a pandemic. This is actually more reason to cut costs.


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## VIP86 (Oct 10, 2019)

RapShepard said:


> If they didn't listen then ol well suck it up and call the show like you're paid to do. Is what I'm telling him to do if I'm Tony.


JR is a wrestling legend with enough knowledge that none of these losers will ever achive
and people like him consider things like this to be a crime against their business
if you personally witnessed a crime at your workplace, are you going to just "suck it up" ?


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## Prosper (Mar 25, 2015)

Dark Emperor said:


> Tony can't even fire the useless talent he has on the books and claims it's because of a pandemic. This is actually more reason to cut costs.


Or maybe he has a conscious? Everything doesn’t have to be about ruthless capitalism and profit over morality 100% of the time in business.


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## Klitschko (May 24, 2020)

RapShepard said:


> If I was Tony we'd have a big talk about his lack of respect for me and my company who have been nothing, but nice to him. He was never this openly lippy at his last job. He's not wrong, but sheesh lol


Spot on. I completely agree with JR here. Everything he said was spot on, but show some respect to the company that has overpaid you and treated you like a god. He knows damn well what AEW is all about. Maybe he wants to get fired or something.


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## B0D2017 (Jul 21, 2017)

What some people don't get is, you can't go back to old times. Yes, today's wrestlers fucking suck, they bury every single move in energy single match, every single week, but times have changed. Nobody wants to see 2 dudes just punching/kicking and doing headlocks on eachother for 15+ minutes per match. Crowds would boo the shit out of them, You need balance between two.

Would HBK be HBK if everyone back in his time did superkick, or was "stealing the show every night"? No, because nobody would give a shit then. They would all be same.

That's the problem today. Everybody wants to be HBK and Bret, everybody wants to steal the show every night, everybody wants to do same moves and kick out of them. They don't have characters, all they have is 1004 different moves and they do all of them every single night. 

Stop unecessary flipping, or limit it to 1-2 people max, if Flipochet is doing it then stop others from doing it, let that make him special, let that be his thing. If Ziggler is gonna be doing Superkick (which he shouldn't because he is fucking jobber) then let ONLY him do it, and ban others from doing it. If Roman is doing spear, then let only Roman do it, stop Lashley and others from doing it. If Ziggler is gonna be the one to claim he steals show every night, then let that be his thing. You get the point. Give everybody their own thing, and don't have everyone just care about being best in ring and shit like that. 

Take a look at WWE back in the day, HBK was all about stealing the show, HHH only gave a fuck about gold, Kane/Taker were all about torturing people, Rock, Stone cold were all about being the absolute best, Mankind was all about hardcore shit, etc. Imagine if all of these guys listed above ONLY cared about having best match of the night and didn't have any characters, or anything else, nobody would give a shit. You need the balance.

Same with size, if everybody is giant then nobody is giant, if everybody is average sized then nobody stands out. You need 1-2 giants (like Show and Kane), few monsters (like Brock, Batista, HHH), few average sized guys (HBK, Bret), and few "midgets" (Mysterio) to make it all work. There has to always be the balance.


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## Dizzie (Jun 22, 2019)

He's not wrong and as much as elite wants to put an emphasis on in ring wrestling, they have as much as a problem as wwe does in terms of a majority of the matches looking the same with a lack of psychology, moves are spammed and barely sold so much that they have lost any meaning or importance and nearly every match spends as much on the outside as it does in the ring.

Also fuck Cutler throwing shade at jr, this anorexic talentless hack doesn't deserve a single second of tv time on a wrestling show unless it's as an audience member.


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## VIP86 (Oct 10, 2019)

Brandon Cutler's tweet is a physical evidence that he is NOT a PRO wrestler
his only talent is making friends with the EVPs


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## Prosper (Mar 25, 2015)

_*Wrestling News*_* is reporting that they spoke with a few AEW stars about Ross’ comments. In the quote they reported, the source say that while Ross may have a point it doesn’t help the talent to be buried publicly. Here is the quote:*


> *“Look I know there is a lot that JR can teach us but burying us on the show or on his podcast is only going to make some of us ignore what he says. I grew up watching JR and he is the best and we love it that he calls our matches but maybe find a different way to criticize the wrestlers in the ring. Everyone is doing what they have been taught. I agree that sometimes things need to be slowed down but that won’t happen when the guy who is supposed to help put us over is going out there and publicly burying us.”*


_*Jim Ross has been one of the voices of AEW since the company’s first show. He continues to be one of the voices of AEW Dynamite alongside Excalibur and Tony Schiavone.*_

Source: AEW Wrestlers Reportedly Upset With Jim Ross' Public Criticism | WrestleTalk

LOL looks like AEW has just got one of their first real "backstage heat" type situations.


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## One Shed (Jan 7, 2014)

DammitChrist said:


> Jeez, you’re right. I don’t even mind AEW’s matches most of the time.
> 
> Most of the high-flying stunts, and spots happen in the tag matches anyway; but they’re still generally harmless in the end.
> 
> ...


It is not the concept of the flip or dive that is the problem. One issue is almost everyone spams them now in almost every match. They mean almost nothing now. You have guys that are just OK at both doing them and taking them which helps it all look extra choreographed and fake. Look at an all time great like Mysterio or even HBK. They generally did not have ten guys needing to catch them because they knew how to do the moves at a world class level, not just a mediocre one. The timing of being out on the floor and being able to turn around and still protect a guy diving on you without making it look like a circus act is SADLY missing today. Add in the popping up five seconds later and you have a trifecta of unbelievability. Those are the issues many of us have with the mediocre and average guys trying to do every move today. Straw manning it as "you guys just hate the flipz" is just not accurate.

Not everyone has equal talent and will be a main eventer and you need to protect some high impact moves for the upper card which is what actually draws you your money. That is also why you actually have proper dark matches to let up and coming guys try stuff and when they get good enough at it, let them try it on a match on TV. But letting guys just do every move they feel like in every match is ludicrous.

See how people are responding to Kenny actually protecting his finisher. That should be the rule, not the exception. Finisher spam and no finishes coming out of nowhere causes a lot of people to tune out the overly long matches because they know nothing is really going to happen for awhile except mostly the same moves they saw in the last overly long match right before it.

They have a ton of vets on staff who understand ring psychology and why and when you do certain things in matches. People like JR have a lot if wisdom to teach. It would be a shame if the Brandon Cutlers of the world who just think ultra short term, one match at a time, get listened to more.


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## RapShepard (Jun 20, 2014)

Dark Emperor said:


> Haha he's got old and knows Tony ain't a ruthless boss like Vince. He wouldn't dare fire a legend. SO he does at he pleases whilst pocketing Tony's cash.
> 
> Tony can't even fire the useless talent he has on the books and claims it's because of a pandemic. This is actually more reason to cut costs.


This might be a good point lol. Not fearing losing your job will have you doing whatever the fuck you want at that bitch [emoji23]



VIP86 said:


> JR is a wrestling legend with enough knowledge that none of these losers will ever achive
> and people like him consider things like this to be a crime against their business
> if you personally witnessed a crime at your workplace, are you going to just "suck it up" ?


Dramatics aside I get and agree with his point. But if I'm Tony we'd need to talk about his outbursts. They already have Cornette, last thing they need is an in-house Cornette. Hell look at the overall reception of the thread. 

Cornette makes this point about dives a lot, but he tends to get scoffed off as bitter and out of touch. JR makes the same point with the same "these kids can't work" attitude, yet it's being listened too a lot more than when Cornette says it. That's obviously the small sample size here of course. But if you're Tony you don't want a loud vocal critic on your payroll




Klitschko said:


> Spot on. I completely agree with JR here. Everything he said was spot on, but show some respect to the company that has overpaid you and treated you like a god. He knows damn well what AEW is all about. Maybe he wants to get fired or something.


Maybe or as above maybe he just isn't afraid of losing his spot so he says fuck it and is speaking free and honest. Which is cool on his end he can do it. Surprising TK isn't trying to reel it in.


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## RapShepard (Jun 20, 2014)

prosperwithdeen said:


> _*Wrestling News*_* is reporting that they spoke with a few AEW stars about Ross’ comments. In the quote they reported, the source say that while Ross may have a point it doesn’t help the talent to be buried publicly. Here is the quote:*
> 
> _*Jim Ross has been one of the voices of AEW since the company’s first show. He continues to be one of the voices of AEW Dynamite alongside Excalibur and Tony Schiavone.*_
> 
> ...


To think it's JR causing the drama lol.


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## El Hammerstone (Jan 11, 2020)

RapShepard said:


> To think it's JR causing the drama lol.


If a parent scolds their child for throwing a tantrum in a store, it's not the parent that's at fault.


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## One Shed (Jan 7, 2014)

prosperwithdeen said:


> _*Wrestling News*_* is reporting that they spoke with a few AEW stars about Ross’ comments. In the quote they reported, the source say that while Ross may have a point it doesn’t help the talent to be buried publicly. Here is the quote:*
> 
> _*Jim Ross has been one of the voices of AEW since the company’s first show. He continues to be one of the voices of AEW Dynamite alongside Excalibur and Tony Schiavone.*_
> 
> ...


It is like when weak parents just let their kids run all over them but when you have parents who actually train their kids how to behave properly in the world, the kids call child services because their fascist parents did not let them stay up to 11 and eat ice cream.


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## One Shed (Jan 7, 2014)

El Hammerstone said:


> If a parent scolds their child for throwing a tantrum in a store, it's not the parent that's at fault.


We are literally thinking the exact same thing.


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## VIP86 (Oct 10, 2019)

RapShepard said:


> Dramatics aside I get and agree with his point. But if I'm Tony we'd need to talk about his outbursts. They already have Cornette, last thing they need is an in-house Cornette. Hell look at the overall reception of the thread.
> 
> Cornette makes this point about dives a lot, but he tends to get scoffed off as bitter and out of touch. JR makes the same point with the same "these kids can't work" attitude, yet it's being listened too a lot more than when Cornette says it. That's obviously the small sample size here of course. But if you're Tony you don't want a loud vocal critic on your payroll


interesting that you avoided my point and question completely 🙄


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## RapShepard (Jun 20, 2014)

El Hammerstone said:


> If a parent scolds their child for throwing a tantrum in a store, it's not the parent that's at fault.


Well in this case would JR be throwing the tantrum. He did start it and need Cutler to correct him lol. 

But that wasn't my point lol. My point was I always assumed the first backstage beef would be EVPs vs wrestlers. Not wrestlers vs JR.


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## VIP86 (Oct 10, 2019)

RapShepard said:


> Well in this case would JR be throwing the tantrum. He did start it and need Cutler to correct him lol.


dude, did you seriously just said that JR needed Cutler to correct him ?


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## RapShepard (Jun 20, 2014)

VIP86 said:


> interesting that you avoided my point and question completely [emoji849]


Because your question is fucking ridiculous lol. He didn't witness a crime at work. He can hate it, he can think it's the worst way to do wrestling. But ultimately he's doing more harm than good taking his criticisms outside the company. Now look at him causing commotion backstage. So what has he actually accomplished by reporting this "crime" to the public. 

As far as me if I give a suggestion at work and it doesn't get used. I move the fuck on, because as long as the check clears fuck it.


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## Thomazbr (Apr 26, 2009)

If people truly cared about the integrity of professional wrestling poor Timothy Thatcher wouldn't be a walking viewer repellent.
It's fucking cruel. You see NXT and thatcher is actually the most entertaining character In that show and he wrestles the most snug style possible.

And then you catch the ratings and without fault an average 150k stop watching the show when he is on TV


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## RapShepard (Jun 20, 2014)

VIP86 said:


> dude, did you seriously just said that JR needed Cutler to correct him ?


I think Cutler is being sensitive. But JR is definitely the one that threw the public tantrum given he started it. He wants his flips done like X, and flipped out because they're done like Y.


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## La Parka (Oct 28, 2008)

famicommander said:


> Gold Medal winning vaults:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


There's nothing flashy about modern day wrestling.

Shitty punches and shitty dives are not flashy. They show lack of talent on the people participating in them because they miss the entire point of wrestling, which is to perform a realistic and entertaining fight that allows the crowd to suspend their belief.


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## VIP86 (Oct 10, 2019)

RapShepard said:


> Because your question is fucking ridiculous lol. He didn't witness a crime at work. He can hate it, he can think it's the worst way to do wrestling. But ultimately he's doing more harm than good taking his criticisms outside the company. Now look at him causing commotion backstage. So what has he actually accomplished by reporting this "crime" to the public.
> 
> As far as me if I give a suggestion at work and it doesn't get used. I move the fuck on, because as long as the check clears fuck it.


then you really didn't understand my point AT ALL 

i will say it again maybe it will register this time
but try to look at it from JR's point of view, not from your point of view and understanding of the business

people like him consider things like this to be a crime against their business
if you personally witnessed a crime at your workplace, are you going to just "suck it up" ?

if i'm in JR's place, yes i would consider it a crime if people disrespect my business like this


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## RapShepard (Jun 20, 2014)

VIP86 said:


> then you really didn't understand my point AT ALL
> 
> i will say it again maybe it will register this time
> but try to look at it from JR's point of view, not from your point of view and understanding of the business
> ...


We all got JRs point from the get go. Thing is what is JR going to do about it? It's not his business so he can't make them change how they work. And it's certainly not such an issue that he's going to tell Tony to fuck himself and take his money back he hates what he's doing. So ultimately by not "sucking it up" he's just causing more harm than good like actually accomplishing his goal.


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## RamPaige (Jun 10, 2017)

JR has a point.

This is why wrestling matches from the 80s, 90s, and even 00s are more enjoyable to watch than what we have now. Wrestlers back in the day knew how to tell a story instead of just looking for the next ridiculous spot.

Ironically, people talk down on women's wrestling, but the women not being as athletic makes it to where they aren't as reliant on it as the guys. It's not like athleticism is something new to wrestling. WCW's cruiserweight division was full of it but those guys could still knew how to tell a story. Same for the SD six era.

Of course, you still have a lot of amazing wrestlers today. I just wish they had a more old school mentality when it came to their performances.

And I don't have an irrational hatred for anything resembling the indies or "flippy shit", but it is hard for me to invest in a match when you have wrestlers surviving moves that should be match enders.

Remeber the Candadian Destoyer?


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## One Shed (Jan 7, 2014)

RapShepard said:


> We all got JRs point from the get go. Thing is what is JR going to do about it? It's not his business so he can't make them change how they work. And it's certainly not such an issue that he's going to tell Tony to fuck himself and take his money back he hates what he's doing. So ultimately by not "sucking it up" he's just causing more harm than good like actually accomplishing his goal.


Thing is, they are using JR's name and reputation to gain credibility. If they launched their product and three goofs in masks were announcing, that would be taken less seriously. People have to protect their reputations and integrity. And you could say "well he should just quit then" but he loves the business, know what works and what does not, and cares enough to try and do something about it. It is not like he wrote an article about it or called up the media. He spoke off the cuff on his own podcast based on what I am guessing was a fan's question.


----------



## RapShepard (Jun 20, 2014)

Two Sheds said:


> Thing is, they are using JR's name and reputation to gain credibility. If they launched their product and three goofs in masks were announcing, that would be taken less seriously. People have to protect their reputations and integrity. And you could say "well he should just quit then" but he loves the business, know what works and what does not, and cares enough to try and do something about it. It is not like he wrote an article about it or called up the media. He spoke off the cuff on his own podcast based on what I am guessing was a fan's question.


But are people going to take it serious when their lead announcer can barely be energetic to call the thing and then spends his free time consistently criticizing how the wrestling is done? As posted above all he's done is caused an internal issue. So while I agree with his sentiment, you do learn as an adult that there's a time and place for everything.


----------



## VIP86 (Oct 10, 2019)

i still don't blame JR, we don't know for how long he's been complaining behind closed doors
sometimes people burst when they just can't take it anymore
plus like (Two Sheds) said, his name is also on the product
so he has the right to complain


----------



## Mister Sinister (Aug 7, 2013)

They do dives through the ropes or over them in virtually every match. I hate the spot and I hate hearing Excalibur mumble-scream sooicida (sic) like we don't see it constantly.


----------



## One Shed (Jan 7, 2014)

RapShepard said:


> But are people going to take it serious when their lead announcer can barely be energetic to call the thing and then spends his free time consistently criticizing how the wrestling is done? As posted above all he's done is caused an internal issue. So while I agree with his sentiment, you do learn as an adult that there's a time and place for everything.


Yeah, I mean I mostly agree with that. I just think he was told one thing and then asked to call another from the things he has said. He was asked a question on his personal podcast and responded. It was not like he tagged specific guys on Twitter and personally insulted them. Some of them clearly knew they were guilty of what he was saying though.


----------



## VIP86 (Oct 10, 2019)

Mister Sinister said:


> They do dives through the ropes or over them in virtually every match. I hate the spot and I hate hearing Excalibur mumble-scream sooicida (sic) like we don't see it constantly.


----------



## RapShepard (Jun 20, 2014)

Two Sheds said:


> Yeah, I mean I mostly agree with that. I just think he was told one thing and then asked to call another from the things he has said. He was asked a question on his personal podcast and responded. It was not like he tagged specific guys on Twitter and personally insulted them. Some of them clearly knew they were guilty of what he was saying though.


That's why sometimes you have to give the phony media friendly answer to keep the peace. The talent have already shown that they are willing to go out of there to do things to mock Cornette for his opinions. If you're JR you don't want to open up that type of work environment. It's just needless tension.


----------



## 3venflow (Feb 3, 2019)

I would like to see wrestling go back to basics a bit more but not a full rollback.

New Japan does it well and has modernised it's own style in recent years, thanks a lot to Tanahashi changing the ideal of what a main eventer should be like there. New Japan does have some finisher spam, but moreso in the biggest matches. The undercard isn't full of tope con hilos and a crowd of wrestlers waiting to catch someone on the outside.

Despite some of the criticism he gets, Kenny Omega works a great long main event style match thanks to his years in New Japan. His spots are fleshed out more and he knows how to work a long match. In fact, I think AEW's main eventers (Kenny, Mox, Jericho, Cody) are ok on that front, but the undercard has certain guys who want their 'moment' and as a result there is overkill.

So I get what JR is saying and agree, but I don't think it is something that can be enforced unless AEW has a head figure who can start to dictate things without going full on Vince (and on the other side of things, I don't want to see watered down clone wrestlers like WWE has produced).

As for JR, I don't really know how I'd respond to his comments if he was my paid employee. It feels like something that should be said behind closed doors more than in public and came across as provocative, perhaps unprofessional given he is a contracted talent.

Brandon Cutler's response is also petty and he's certainly not a wrestler who should be rocking the boat, since he is the definition of expendable.

JR could also do some self-analysis and see how inferior his _own_ performances as a commentator are compared to 20 years ago. If it was me, he'd be used in an honorary role by now and someone younger, more energetic would be fronting the show. It's a show with a good base of younger fans and the commentary team should reflect that - as JR himself did in the Attitude Era.


----------



## One Shed (Jan 7, 2014)

RapShepard said:


> That's why sometimes you have to give the phony media friendly answer to keep the peace. The talent have already shown that they are willing to go out of there to do things to mock Cornette for his opinions. If you're JR you don't want to open up that type of work environment. It's just needless tension.


We live in a world where a bunch of phony people give phony answers to basic useless questions so I have an appreciation for real people. Who wants to read a fluff interview full of questions that mean nothing?


----------



## the_flock (Nov 23, 2016)

Dark Emperor said:


> Haha he's got old and knows Tony ain't a ruthless boss like Vince. He wouldn't dare fire a legend. SO he does at he pleases whilst pocketing Tony's cash.
> 
> Tony can't even fire the useless talent he has on the books and claims it's because of a pandemic. This is actually more reason to cut costs.


Or maybe he wants out and he's trying to get fired. This isn't the first time he's slated AEWs product.


----------



## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

Tsvetoslava said:


> Can you make the crowd care for you tho? Flashy moves =/= in-ring psichology.


fallacy

more of the one does not equal less of the other. See YB v Kenny / Hangman

hell - see YB vs LB ladder match - i cared a shitload throughout

i want epic battles. The cat is out the bag, the stuff is scripted. No interest in simulated fights, i want simulated battles of epic proportions

i realised i’ve begun to get excited for matches only 10min in, when i know they’re tired - but the big moves start to come - there’s a reality in that, fighting against your exhaustion and pulling off brilliant shit

or i’ve started to enjoy counter wrestling a lot more. Trade move for move - not the old school i beat you for 3 min, then you beat me then i beat you - we all know that formula and i’m tired of it

Kenny v Mox only started being great when they did the chair spot (to me) - after that they got intense and the v-triggers were flying

I’m all about that shit


----------



## Swan-San (May 25, 2019)

The audacity of Culter to tweet that, so unworthy.


----------



## RapShepard (Jun 20, 2014)

Two Sheds said:


> We live in a world where a bunch of phony people give phony answers to basic useless questions so I have an appreciation for real people. Who wants to read a fluff interview full of questions that mean nothing?


I mean I respect it, real interviews are certainly fun to read. I'm just saying what I'd do if if I'm Tony. As far as JR does he find it worth it to piss off his thin skinned co-workers.


----------



## the_flock (Nov 23, 2016)

prosperwithdeen said:


> LOL looks like AEW has just got one of their first real "backstage heat" type situations.


Nope JR has had beef with them since the start, this isn't his 1sy altercation. Jericho has also called them out on their shit too.


----------



## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

prosperwithdeen said:


> _*Wrestling News*_* is reporting that they spoke with a few AEW stars about Ross’ comments. In the quote they reported, the source say that while Ross may have a point it doesn’t help the talent to be buried publicly. Here is the quote:*
> 
> _*Jim Ross has been one of the voices of AEW since the company’s first show. He continues to be one of the voices of AEW Dynamite alongside Excalibur and Tony Schiavone.*_
> 
> ...


good, JR has been needed to be ‘dealt’ with for a little time now

as @RapShepard said - regardless of views, he’s getting mighty fucking lippy in public

calling out the refs during a match (last week) also pissed me off - he took me way more out of the match than the ref did - hell, the ref didn’t - only JR did


----------



## One Shed (Jan 7, 2014)

the_flock said:


> Nope JR has had beef with them since the start, this isn't his 1sy altercation. Jericho has also called them out on their shit too.


Yes, I even forgot about that. Jericho definitely did it too before he got indoctrinated.


----------



## EyeFoxUp (Apr 9, 2020)

famicommander said:


> Gold Medal winning vaults:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


While I still agree with JR on his point, your post is a good one and swayed me in your direction some.


----------



## VIP86 (Oct 10, 2019)

Swan-San said:


> The audacity of Culter to tweet that, so unworthy.


did you expected anything else
Cutler was only hired because of one reason
EVP friends and a weak boss


----------



## RapShepard (Jun 20, 2014)

LifeInCattleClass said:


> good, JR has been needed to be ‘dealt’ with for a little time now
> 
> as @RapShepard said - regardless of views, he’s getting mighty fucking lippy in public
> 
> calling out the refs during a match (last week) also pissed me off - he took me way more out of the match than the ref did - hell, the ref didn’t - only JR did


Yeah like I agree with him, but it's like he's not exactly helping anything. Then add in he's not exactly close to his prime of calling he doesn't really leave himself much room to be so critical.


----------



## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

RapShepard said:


> Yeah like I agree with him, but it's like he's not exactly helping anything. Then add in he's not exactly close to his prime of calling he doesn't really leave himself much room to be so critical.


personally i would give him a talking to, and restrict him to the main events for a bit

no better time to bring goldenboy back

he’s actually still on the roster


----------



## WrestlingFlander (Dec 12, 2020)

famicommander said:


> Gold Medal winning vaults:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This is easy to refute, you’re comparing apples to oranges.

That’s gymnastics, which is based on flips, which means the more flips and gynastics moves the more evolved.

Professional Wrestling/Sports Entertainment is based on Storylines and Characters, it has never ever been about moves or what happens in the ring, it’s never been about actual wrestling, only in Amateur wrestling is based on the Wrestling.

which means Professional Wrestling only evolves when there’s more Storylines and Characters and less in ring work/wrestling.

Logically therefore it has devolved, also even in the wrestling itself it was based on being more and more realistic and looking more and more like a fight, it has to stimulate actual competition, whether theres LESS or more moves, so even by that standard it has devolved, since with more moves, there’s less realism, less of it stimulating a fight. Amount of moves is irrelevant.

If you have a problem with that, then Professional Wrestling isn’t for you, if you can’t accept that it’s storylines and character based and that the in ring action doesn’t matter, then it’s better to move on, if you want more flips why not watch gymnastics? Instead of trying to change a genre solely focused on story and character?

It’s like trying to make Boxing about kicks, it does not logically follow as Boxing is based on Punching, likewise Professional Wrestling, though it has Wrestling in the title(which originally stemmed as a ploy to suspend disbelief, since it was never actually Wrestling, Real Wrestling isn’t contested in a Boxing ring.) is based on Storylines and Characters.

Let me conclude:

Professional Wrestling is an Action Adventure Series about Wrestling, a Storyline and Character play that takes place in a boxing ring.

It isn’t actual Wrestling nor is it about the Wrestling and moves.

A 100% comparison would be the tv series, Cobra Kai, it’s an Action Adventure series about Karate, a Storyline and Character play that takes place in a Karate dojo, it isn’t actual karate and moves, the actors karate skills are irrelevant.

Now as for JR, anyone who says he makes AEW look bad by publicly pointing out things basically concedes that there is a problem, because if JR pointing out stuff makes them look bad, then it’s the stuff he’s pointing out that makes them look bad, which means it’s objectively... bad, and they need to change and listen to it.

Now if what he pointed out doesn’t make them look bad, then it isn’t bad, unless he’s spinning something or lying about what he’s pointing out, which he isn’t.


----------



## Thomazbr (Apr 26, 2009)

WrestlingFlander said:


> This is easy to refute, you’re comparing apples to oranges.
> 
> That’s gymnastics, which is based on flips, which means the more flips and gynastics moves the more evolved.
> 
> ...


On the other hand why not compare this to say a Jackie Chan movie where the fighting it's very important to the series and one that the more fantastical it is the better it is seen as? And the skills of the actor is very important for the overall appeal of the movie?

Same for a John Wick movie, or a Mission Impossible one


----------



## InexorableJourney (Sep 10, 2016)

Maybe Jim would feel better stepping down from a position he clearly can't stand.


----------



## La Parka (Oct 28, 2008)

LifeInCattleClass said:


> personally i would give him a talking to, and restrict him to the main events for a bit
> 
> no better time to bring goldenboy back
> 
> he’s actually still on the roster


Imagine giving JR a talking to for rightfully calling out shitty wrestling but ignoring a bald headed twat dive bar wrestler taking a shot at a legendary broadcaster publically.


----------



## WrestlingFlander (Dec 12, 2020)

Thomazbr said:


> On the other hand why not compare this to say a Jackie Chan movie where the fighting it's very important to the series and one that the more fantastical it is the better it is seen as? And the skills of the actor is very important for the overall appeal of the movie?
> 
> Same for a John Wick movie, or a Mission Impossible one


Those are fighting movies... which are about the fighting. The story is irrelevant, they could be great but that’s not what their purpose.

In professional wrestling it’a the opposite, it’s about storylines and characters, the wrestling is irrelevant, it could be great, but that’s not their purpose.

If you want the opposite, that genre is called Amateur Wrestling, it’s about the wrestling, the personalities and stories are irrelevant, they could be great, but that’s not their purpose.

You don’t go to see a Comedy movie for Serious Drama.

You don’t go to a Professional Wrestling show for Flips... you go to Gynmastics for that. You don’t go to it for actual wrestling... there’s Amateur Wrestling for that, you go to a Pro Wrestling show for a Storyline and Character play about wrestling.


----------



## Pippen94 (Jan 10, 2020)

Well almost everybody goes through nxt...


----------



## Thomazbr (Apr 26, 2009)

WrestlingFlander said:


> Those are fighting movies... which are about the fighting. The story is irrelevant, they could be great but that’s not what their purpose.
> 
> In professional wrestling it’a the opposite, it’s about storylines and characters, the wrestling is irrelevant, it could be great, but that’s not their purpose.
> 
> ...


I don't agree with that disctiction at all.
Wrestling is a thing because it's about stage fighting. Because real fighting is for the most part boring to watch and in the carnival circus they quickly realized that pantomiming incredible moves and yes some personality is more entertaining for the watcher. Everything happened in the ring. Fake fighting was the whole point of it all. I agree that the storytelling is important but the fighting is paramont to the whole vibe.
The whole thing about how the wrestling doesn't actually matter is retarded. Why watch wrestling in the first place and not just watch theater or movies when the actual dramatic content being told is objectively superior to any story told in wrestling.
The fighting matters and there's many ways to portray the fighting. The same goes for fighting movies.

I for sure argue that Pro Wrestling is closer to Fighting Movies than any other form of media. You can shoot like the Shaw Brothers movies with the shapes and forms of traditional kung fu cinema or you can bring some realism like Bruce Lee did when they first came up. There's no true correct form to shoot action.


----------



## The Raw Smackdown (Jan 8, 2017)

RapShepard said:


> If I was Tony we'd have a big talk about his lack of respect for me and my company who have been nothing, but nice to him. He was never this openly lippy at his last job. He's not wrong, but sheesh lol


Agree 100 percent. If that's what you think fine but don't be talking shit to the media. That's disrespectful as hell.


----------



## WrestlingFlander (Dec 12, 2020)

Thomazbr said:


> I don't agree with that disctiction at all.
> Wrestling is a thing because it's about stage fighting. Because real fighting is for the most part boring to watch and in the carnival circus they quickly realized that pantomiming incredible moves and yes some personality is more entertaining for the watcher. Everything happened in the ring. Fake fighting was the whole point of it all. I agree that the storytelling is important but the fighting is paramont to the whole vibe.
> The whole thing about how the wrestling doesn't actually matter is retarded. Why watch wrestling in the first place and not just watch theater or movies when the actual dramatic content being told is objectively superior to any story told in wrestling.
> The fighting matters and there's many ways to portray the fighting. The same goes for fighting movies.
> ...


Smarks always ask, why watch?

Because it’s a unique genre, there is no other Live Action TV show about wrestling that’s filmed in front of a live audience.
You never see live acting in front of a live audience in a story based on a competitive sport.

That’s why.

The real question is, Why watch if you’re watching for the in ring?

You could get 100x better in ring wrestling watching Amateur Wrestling, you could get 100x better Flips in Gymnastics.

You therefore have absolutely no reason to be watching it.

While I do, because this is the only live action adventure series show that’s story is about a combat sport, that’s filmed in front of a live audience.

THAT is what professional wrestling is.


----------



## Thomazbr (Apr 26, 2009)

WrestlingFlander said:


> Smarks always ask, why watch?
> 
> Because it’s a unique genre, there is no other Live Action TV show about wrestling that’s filmed in front of a live audience.
> You never see live acting in front of a live audience in a story based on a competitive sport.
> ...


I watch because fake fighting is entertaining. And that's what wrestling is.
Fake fighting.
Also honesty shut the fuck up about implying I am a Smark (I am) like you aren't one discussing the artistic merits of pro wrestling is on a niche wrestling forum.

You fucking nerd

It's also not true Rocky the Musical is a thing.


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

JR is right and should be booking the promotion. It’s good to see him using his veteran voice instead of just calling shit like he likes it. Hint: JR knows more than you, kids. If he can’t call your shit, you need to change your shit.

It’s a shame he has to go online about that. They don’t listen to him. Would rather make nepotism hires and niche themselves.

Brandon Cutler is a fucking moron and should be fired instantly for exposing himself.


----------



## WrestlingFlander (Dec 12, 2020)

Thomazbr said:


> I watch because fake fighting is entertaining. And that's what wrestling is.
> Fake fighting.
> Also honesty shut the fuck up about implying I am a Smark (I am) like you aren't one discussing the artistic merits of pro wrestling is on a niche wrestling forum.
> 
> You fucking nerd


And again, there’s already a Genre for Fake Fighting, ABOUT Fake Fighting that does it way better. You could easily watch a Jackie Chan movie, they do it 1000x better and it’s what that genre is about.

Professional Wrestling is not about the fake fights, it’s involves fake fights the same way Avengers does, but neither are about that.

Professional Wrestling is an action adventure series

Pro wrestling isn’t about workrate/the wrestling just like a Romance movie isn’t about the sex scene, it’s just a plot device of what it’s about... storyline and characters.

Watching Professional wrestling for fake fights is like watching Cobra Kai for fake fights, it’s illogical and is not what the genre is about.

Cobra Kai isn’t about karate, and Professional Wrestling isn’t actual wrestling nor is it based or focused on the wrestling, both are about the plot and characters.


----------



## Mike E (Feb 7, 2020)

I personally like the highly athletic, fast paced matches with lots of high spots. Its very engaging, and you never know where the finish is coming from. Its 2020, wrestling matches are like a choreographed dance routine thats meant for entertainment. We've all known for some time now that they're "fake fighting", its not meant to be taken to seriously. Just enjoy it for what it is, if not no one is forcing you to watch.


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

ireekofawesumnes said:


> I gotta say although I agree with JR mostly this is a DAMN good rebuttal


Not really. First, is that gif accurate? It wouldn’t surprise me if they aren’t both gold medal performances, although that’s not really relevant.

The point behind gymnastics is the flips. I’m not a lifelong fan of gymnastics.

How did the Olympics do business-wise? What were the ratings/attendance/all of that scaled for context? Is 2012’s performance necessarily better for business? Or are the Olympics just bigger? Or is it even less of a draw?

I prefer the first one, honestly. Far more elegant and simple.



Thomazbr said:


> On the other hand why not compare this to say a Jackie Chan movie where the fighting it's very important to the series and one that the more fantastical it is the better it is seen as? And the skills of the actor is very important for the overall appeal of the movie?
> 
> Same for a John Wick movie, or a Mission Impossible one


The “work” in those movies is so much better. The daylight you get in modern wrestling makes the two so incompatible. The quality of fight in action films shits all over modern wrestling.

By the way, I lost the quote, but @LifeInCattleClass, you cannot do what Hulk Hogan, The Rock or Steve Austin did, FFS.


----------



## Thomazbr (Apr 26, 2009)

WrestlingFlander said:


> And again, there’s already a Genre for Fake Fighting, ABOUT Fake Fighting that does it way better. You could easily watch a Jackie Chan movie, they do it 1000x better and it’s what that genre is about.
> 
> Professional Wrestling is not about the fake fights, it’s involves fake fights the same way Avengers does, but neither are about that.
> 
> ...


It's not illogical at all.
Pro wrestling isn't only an american television thing. It happens in multiple forms of presentations everywhere in the world.
Fake Fighting is PARAMONT to the whole thing. It's the whole fucking origin of this genre. It was a bunch of carny assholes faking fighting to entertain a bunch of hicks on the carnivals. The fact that it evolved in MULTIPLE different directions with multiple different subgenres to it from the athletic death defying lucha libre to fucking japanese deathmatches says to you how much the fake fighting actually matter.

Also @The Wood I mostly agree that the action in movies is for the most part better. There are things that pro wrestling can't compete with like the magic of editing. However it doesn't mean that there are benifits to the live action aspect to it that helps with some other things. It also means that it's just another place to aim for.

Anyway I said my piece. I just think this reductionism of "ah the fighting doesn't actually matter" is fucking dumb.

You can argue about the quality of the pro wrestling how much you want, everyone has their own preferences, but pretending that it the fighting doesn't matter its a brainlet take. The whole discussion is because JR doesn't like that one genre of fighting while Cutler defends his fake fighting.


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

Mike E said:


> I personally like the highly athletic, fast paced matches with lots of high spots. Its very engaging, and you never know where the finish is coming from. Its 2020, wrestling matches are like a choreographed dance routine thats meant for entertainment. We've all known for some time now that they're "fake fighting", its not meant to be taken to seriously. Just enjoy it for what it is, if not no one is forcing you to watch.


This is why fewer and fewer people are watching.


----------



## Mike E (Feb 7, 2020)

The Wood said:


> This is why fewer and fewer people are watching.


Not disagreeing with you, however there is nothing anyone on this board can do about it. They are putting out the product that they want to. It obviously has an audience, and Khan is making money off of AEW. He appears to be happy with the direction, and his vote counts the most as far as the direction of the product goes.


----------



## The XL 2 (Sep 13, 2016)

Pro wrestling has always been about big stars telling compelling stories in and out of the ring. It's not about breaking kayfabe and doing kewl movez.


----------



## WrestlingFlander (Dec 12, 2020)

Mike E said:


> I personally like the highly athletic, fast paced matches with lots of high spots. Its very engaging, and you never know where the finish is coming from. Its 2020, wrestling matches are like a choreographed dance routine thats meant for entertainment. We've all known for some time now that they're "fake fighting", its not meant to be taken to seriously. Just enjoy it for what it is, if not no one is forcing you to watch.


You have to understand that you are a niche though, and have no right to gatekeep a company from providing the Storyline and Character/Barely in ring approach that drew 10’s of millions in favor of your niche desire.

Marvel has a niche audience that doesn’t want comedy, wants less story and more fake fights, there’s probably a million or 3 of those niche fans... but marvel doesn’t listen to them, because there’s Billions who love their comedic, more talk, more story/less fighting approach.

Those 2-3 million niche fans shouldn’t ruin it for the Billions of fans who don’t want what they do.

Unlike Marvel, pro wrestling companies today appeal to the niche, either due to an irrational fear of losing a perceived hardcore base or shere stupidity.

The 2 million niche fanatics who like fake fighting, should not gatekeep from the 13 million(and more since I’m only counting from late 90s numbers) wrestling fans who don’t care about in ring work, who only want storylines and characters.


----------



## Thomazbr (Apr 26, 2009)

The biggest marvel movie ever made is about the biggest fake fight to end all the fake fights.


----------



## DammitChrist (Apr 3, 2016)

Jesus Christ, I'll never get why there are STILL some folks who continue to downplay the wrestling aspect. i'll also never understand why the (obnoxious) anti-wrestling folks continue to act like the workrate MUST be entirely separate (or even de-emphasized) from the characters and promos.

Believe it or not 'kids,' workrate is still an important part of a wrestling show. The wrestlers still need to battle their issues out inside the ring at the end of the day, ESPECIALLY on ppvs too since at least 90% of those big events feature matches exclusively.



The Wood said:


> This is why fewer and fewer people are watching.


No, that's not why "fewer and fewer people are watching."

You basically don't even understand why there's even been a decline in viewers to begin with. That's made perfectly clear by you even insinuating that thrilling wrestling matches 'are what's responsible' for luring away fans of a *wrestling* company.


----------



## Mike E (Feb 7, 2020)

WrestlingFlander said:


> You have to understand that you are a niche though, and have no right to gatekeep a company from providing the Storyline and Character/Barely in ring approach that drew 10’s of millions in favor of your niche desire.
> 
> Marvel has a niche audience that doesn’t want comedy, wants less story and more fake fights, there’s probably a million or 3 of those niche fans... but marvel doesn’t listen to them, because there’s Billions who love their comedic, more talk, more story/less fighting approach.
> 
> ...


This is kind of a weird thing to say, I'm not gatekeeping anything. I'm enjoying a wrestling program that comes on Wednesday nights. Things change, no way would wrestling from the 80's and 90's draw anywhere near the numbers today that it did back in the day. You can't compare TV ratings today with TV ratings from 20 plus years ago. I have no say so in the product that AEW puts out, they produce what they think works. I watch because I like it, you can too if you like it. All I'm saying is there is an audience for modern wrestling. If its not you thats ok, you can watch and complain, or simply tune out. Choice is yours.


----------



## WrestlingFlander (Dec 12, 2020)

Thomazbr said:


> It's not illogical at all.
> Pro wrestling isn't only an american television thing. It happens in multiple forms of presentations everywhere in the world.
> Fake Fighting is PARAMONT to the whole thing. It's the whole fucking origin of this genre. It was a bunch of carny assholes faking fighting to entertain a bunch of hicks on the carnivals. The fact that it evolved in MULTIPLE different directions with multiple different subgenres to it from the athletic death defying lucha libre to fucking japanese deathmatches says to you how much the fake fighting actually matter.
> 
> ...


And every single type of fake fighting, whether that be lucha, hardcore, puro, etc... is Niche.

Professional Wrestling is not and has never been about fake fighting, it’s about the storylines and characters, the fighting is a plot device, just like in every action adventure movie.

Heat, isn’t about some gunfight between Pacino & Deniro, it has a story and has characters, there happens to be a gunfight in the movie. Take away the story, character and stars and the movie is irrelevant, likely having a niche audience.

Halloween(1978) isn’t about gore, or a body count, it’s storyline and character, the gore and body count is irrelevant, if you wanted that you’d have something like the Toxic avenger, which is Niche.

Is this registering with you?

Just because you like something that’s niche, doesn’t mean everyone does... hence its niche, and you shouldn’t change and redefine and devolve a genre that isn’t niche.

If something is niche.. it’s niche for a reason, stop trying to make it the standard when it’s not, if it was... it wouldn’t be niche.


----------



## WrestlingFlander (Dec 12, 2020)

Thomazbr said:


> The biggest marvel movie ever made is about the biggest fake fight to end all the fake fights.


Avengers endgame isn’t about the fake fight whatsoever, people hardly remember what moves were used, if you do you’re apart of a niche audience.

it was completely on the story and character and the expected conclusion to that story. No one cared About the actual fighting and what moves were used, everyone cared about the plot and where the story would go.


----------



## Thomazbr (Apr 26, 2009)

***** if japanese or mexican fake fighting is niche because you say it is then so is american fake fighting.

This will be my last post, have fun continuing to pretend the shit that goes on in the ring don't matter.


----------



## WrestlingFlander (Dec 12, 2020)

DammitChrist said:


> You basically don't even understand why there's even been a decline in viewers to begin with. That's made perfectly clear by you even insinuating that thrilling wrestling matches 'are what's responsible' for luring away fans of a *wrestling* company.


Right there... THATS the problem.

No move is as thrilling, as a story and character, no hit, no flip, no punch or kick. You think storyless and characterless fake fighting with zero logic is thrilling... the masses don’t, you’re apart of a niche audience. You can like that, but don’t expect the rest of us to, don’t expect that 13 million fans out there who don’t want because they don’t like what YOU and you’re niche audience does.

The problem is you call it a Wrestling company.

You aren’t 5 years old, WWE, AEW, they aren’t wrestling companies, there’s no actual wrestling going on, it’s a fake action adventure show about wrestling. These are studios, not wrestling companies.


----------



## Alright_Mate (Jul 21, 2014)

This is not the first time JR has mentioned something like this, sometimes on commentary you can tell he hates this kind of stuff.

AEW get too caught up in the PWG style of wrestling, it’s no surprise to see the one’s who do the flippy, spot monkey style shit were prominent when PWG was hot.

That type of wrestling is basically a competition of who can do the flashiest move, those kind of moves are there just to create cheap pops.

The move he alluded to especially, when someone jumps off a turnbuckle, waiting for about five guys to catch them and then they all fall over, is so over fucking done it’s become hideously boring. For Brandon Cutler to come out and mock JR, shows that he is a fucking idiot, who obviously craves that type of wrestling, that’s why he’s a jobber, and people who can actually tell in ring stories and use psychology like Kenny Omega is World Champion.

It’s no surprise as well that flippy, spot monkey matches never get talked about in the realms of Match of the Year, mainly because they are all too similar.


----------



## shadow_spinner (Dec 6, 2019)

Lance Storm recently did a podcast with Bryan Alvarez. In the podcast Lance talks about how veterans sometimes tend to give advice in a condescending way, he makes the point that when advice is given in this way, even if it's solid advice, it will likely fall on deaf ears because of the condescending tone from the messenger.


----------



## WrestlingFlander (Dec 12, 2020)

Mike E said:


> This is kind of a weird thing to say, I'm not gatekeeping anything. I'm enjoying a wrestling program that comes on Wednesday nights. Things change, no way would wrestling from the 80's and 90's draw anywhere near the numbers today that it did back in the day. You can't compare TV ratings today with TV ratings from 20 plus years ago. I have no say so in the product that AEW puts out, they produce what they think works. I watch because I like it, you can too if you like it. All I'm saying is there is an audience for modern wrestling. If its not you thats ok, you can watch and complain, or simply tune out. Choice is yours.


You can’t say 80s 90s/early 2000s wrestling doesn’t draw today when there isn’t any of that and there has been since that time(2002).

We have since a niche style geared on fake fighting for nearly 20 years, and it doesn’t draw.

You would think after nearly 20 years that we should stop focusing on workrate, yet don’t.

Any other company would’ve stopped by now, they would’ve stopped 5 years max of it not working, yet wrestling follows an insanity and circular reasoning approach


----------



## Mike E (Feb 7, 2020)

WrestlingFlander said:


> You can’t say 80s 90s/early 2000s wrestling doesn’t draw today when there isn’t any of that and there has been since that time(2002).
> 
> We have since a niche style geared on fake fighting for nearly 20 years, and it doesn’t draw.
> 
> ...


AEW is making money, and constantly rates in the top 15 shows on Wednesday night. This week they were number 2 in the top 150. Khan is happy, and chooses the direction of the show. All I'm saying is the audience is there like it or not. We all have opinions of where wrestling should be, yours is not more important than anyone else's.


----------



## WrestlingFlander (Dec 12, 2020)

ROH, PWG, and other indy’s have been around for nearly 20 years, Japan style wrestling has never drawn huge in the United States.

Yet modern wrestling continues to attempt the same style for the last 18 years, with not only zero success, but a decline in business.

It’s either stubbornness or stupidity, that’s the only reason why they would continue to appeal to the niche and continue a style that never ever has drawn and continues to lose viewers.

Its literal insanity.

Any other business would’ve abandoned this approach, any smart upstart would’ve used data and said “stay AWAY from the style, data shows it’s never drawn and drives viewers away”

Instead an upstart like AEW who has that 20 years of data, that shows storylines and characters drew, that workrate doesn’t draw but drives away viewers, NOT ONLY continues to do it, but do it to another level.

It’s either stupidity or stubbornness, data can’t be ignored.


----------



## Brad Boyd (Jan 28, 2020)

I dont necessarily agree with a DDT ever being a finish, its been commonly used in different variations by many top guys of the past who didnt use them as finishers, The Rock, Mankind, Austin etc. The superkick bothers me though. Only because it puts HBKs legendary finisher to shame especially how were seeing an overload of superkick spamming in wrestling these days. The move is about as common as a suplex or a spinebuster.


----------



## WrestlingFlander (Dec 12, 2020)

Mike E said:


> AEW is making money, and constantly rates in the top 15 shows on Wednesday night. This week they were number 2 in the top 150. Khan is happy, and chooses the direction of the show. All I'm saying is the audience is there like it or not. We all have opinions of where wrestling should be, yours is not more important than anyone else's.


They have a niche audience.

It would be like applauding Boston Market for having a niche audience and making some money to stay afloat... it’s still a failed business that hasn’t expanded in 30 years.


----------



## Mike E (Feb 7, 2020)

WrestlingFlander said:


> They have a niche audience.
> 
> It would be like applauding Boston Market for having a niche audience and making some money to stay afloat... it’s still a failed business that hasn’t expanded in 30 years.


They are constantly a top 10 show on Wednesday night, I personally consider that a success. If you don't that's cool and all. I guarantee you though, all those shows behind AEW in the top 150 would love to take there top 10 spot, and consider it a success.


----------



## MarkOfAllMarks (Apr 7, 2018)

There's nothing wrong with being a great athlete and knowing how to do cool moves. I feel like that argument against people who do flashy moves seems like a cop out because they can't do it themselves. That being said JR has some good points that moves don't mean as much anymore. Moves like the Canadian Destroyer that used to be one of my favorite moves to see and always looked devastating. Now everyone does it and it doesn't mean anything anymore to me, it's just bad now. Knowing cool moves is one thing, but knowing where to place it and when to use it within the context of a match takes a ring general. That applies to a lot of art. For example I am a guitar player/ musician. I can do all the tricks in the book, sweeppicking, shredding, tapping and a bunch of flashy guitar tricks. It all means nothing if I can't create music with it, if I can't fit a cool technical guitar lick within the context of an actual song and make it work, then what's even the point. Nobody likes to listen to mindless guitar shred diarrhea.


----------



## JeSeGaN (Jun 5, 2018)

And many AEW fanboys cried in their pillows that night...

JR is right, though. These spots are getting ridiculous. And why is almost everyone in AEW a friggin' spot monkey? People complain about WWE matches, but not this sh*t?


----------



## Eva MaRIHyse (Jun 20, 2014)

He's so fucking right.

Watch ANY modern Wrestling match and you will see countless Superkicks, about 10 suicide dives and yes anytime there's a bunch of wrestlers in the same match/segment you will see them huddle up together so some failed gymnast can do a flip onto them.

Its boring and tedious. Every match is the same, every wrestler is the same, they all do the exact same shit. Even the big guys thesedays have to bust out their wanna be gymnast moves instead of working like big guys.


----------



## DammitChrist (Apr 3, 2016)

WrestlingFlander said:


> Right there... THATS the problem.
> 
> No move is as thrilling, as a story and character, no hit, no flip, no punch or kick. You think storyless and characterless fake fighting with zero logic is thrilling... the masses don’t, you’re apart of a niche audience. You can like that, but don’t expect the rest of us to, don’t expect that 13 million fans out there who don’t want because they don’t like what YOU and you’re niche audience does.
> 
> ...


No, the real issue is that anti-smarks like yourself keep denying the fact that promotions like AEW is a *wrestling* company.

You don’t speak for the rest of the “13 million” audience who are (most likely) interested in watching performers wrestle, fight, and battle each other inside the ring. I don’t expect you to like that considering how you’re not even appreciative of the actual wrestling aspect (along with the rest of the other anti-workrate folks), but I *expect* you to respect the fact that there are still plenty of other fans who are actually appreciative of the in-ring aspect of the show. You have no right to tell me (or everyone else) what to enjoy just because you dislike the wrestling part so much. You’ve failed to convince me that the wrestling aspect of the show “doesn’t matter at all” because the workrate absolutely DOES matter too, and thankfully that won’t go away anytime soon 

For the record, WWE, AEW, and NJPW ARE wrestling companies. What’s even the point of naming the W in those acronyms (the 2nd W in WWE’s case) if there is “no” wrestling going on?

For the record, I’m 23 years old. What the hell are you calling me “5 years old” for?



JeSeGaN said:


> And many AEW fanboys cried in their pillows that night...


See, this part was uncalled for, and it wasn’t unnecessary at all.

You realize that there’s anti-AEW/wrestling folks on here who are busy ‘crying’ about the wrestling aspect?


----------



## MarkOfAllMarks (Apr 7, 2018)

JeSeGaN said:


> And many AEW fanboys cried in their pillows that night...
> 
> JR is right, though. These spots are getting ridiculous. And why is almost everyone in AEW a friggin' spot monkey? People complain about WWE matches, but not this sh*t?


Actually AEW don't have that many "spot monkeys" in general. They actually have a pretty excellent roster, in terms of raw talent. They have a great balance between high flyers and grounded athletes.


----------



## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

So, the evolution of wrestling is kind of bullshit in my honest opinion. What happened is that guys like The Bucks couldn't get over the proper way (Building emotional investment) so they then spammed flips and exciting moves to get over. High spots (Remember when they were considered "high risk"?) used to be things that actually meant something. One of my favourite cruiserweight matches was a match in which the babyface tried to launch himself over the top rope onto the heel opponent but the heel opponent kept ducking and moving out of the way. After the third or fourth attempt the guy nailed it, crowd went nuts and the babyface rolled the heel in, hit him with his finish and he was done.

They only did one high spot but it was so important that an arena went nuts for it. Who was involved? Just two little unknown wrestlers named AJ Styles and Christopher Daniels. Match is on the Impact Network if you want to watch it, it was for an Australian promotion named World Series Wrestling.

Wrestling at it's core is about emotional investment and once things get in the ring it's about telling a story that is realistic and raises drama. AEW do not do this because as I've said a hundred times before they don't know what they're doing.




fabi1982 said:


> Cutler showing why he should be Dark4life and better stop tweeting...
> 
> JR is 100% right, its all about „holy shit“ and „this is awesome“ now.


Cutler would be sacked if this was my promotion. Fuck that guy.



RapShepard said:


> If I was Tony we'd have a big talk about his lack of respect for me and my company who have been nothing, but nice to him. He was never this openly lippy at his last job. He's not wrong, but sheesh lol


JR has had enough. Imagine the shit he's had to sit through for the past 12+ months. He hates this, it's a pay cheque for him


----------



## WrestlingFlander (Dec 12, 2020)

DammitChrist said:


> No, the real issue is that anti-smarks like yourself keep denying the fact that promotions like AEW is a *wrestling* company.
> 
> You don’t speak for the rest of the “13 million” audience who are (most likely) interested in watching performers wrestle, fight, and battle each other inside the ring. I don’t expect you to like that considering how you’re not even appreciative of the actual wrestling aspect (along with the rest of the other anti-workrate folks), but I *expect* you to respect the fact that there are still plenty of other fans who are actually appreciative of the in-ring aspect of the show. You have no right to tell me (or everyone else) what to enjoy just because you dislike the wrestling part so much. You’ve failed to convince me that the wrestling aspect of the show “doesn’t matter at all” because the workrate absolutely DOES matter too, and thankfully that won’t go away anytime soon
> 
> ...


It’s not a wrestling company , the Wrestling is fake.

Wrestling doesn’t consist of a boxing ring, punches and Irish whips, those are made up tropes of Professional Wrestling/Sports entertainment, an Action Adventure series about wrestling, Wrestling is in name only and plot device, there’s no actual wrestling and it isn’t about wrestling.

WWF, WWE, WCW, ECW, AEW, TNA, etc are not Wrestling organizations, they are a Studio that produces a Fictional Action Adventure Series about wrestling.

And yes I do speak for the 13 million, because I was there watching along with them when they were watching, they don’t like fake fights, if they did they would be watching right now, they want stories and characters, not in ring moves and fake fights.

Supply and Demand, the 13million(plus millions and million new fans who want stories and characters) want stories and characters and don’t care about fake fights, and these companies are Not Supplying that Demand.

Hence business is failing, they supply to a niche which is unreasonable.

Also you’re 23 years old, you missed not one but both of the modern boom periods, so we shouldn’t listen to you on what draws.


----------



## Thomazbr (Apr 26, 2009)

I hope everyone here spent money on Lucha Underground.


----------



## THANOS (Jun 20, 2006)

Thomazbr said:


> The biggest marvel movie ever made is about the biggest fake fight to end all the fake fights.


EDIT: The biggest MOVIE ever made is about the biggest fake fight to end all the fake fights .


----------



## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

WrestlingFlander said:


> This is easy to refute, you’re comparing apples to oranges.
> 
> That’s gymnastics, which is based on flips, which means the more flips and gynastics moves the more evolved.
> 
> ...


brah, professional wrestling is whatever is on tv Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays


----------



## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

The Wood said:


> By the way, I lost the quote, but @LifeInCattleClass, you cannot do what Hulk Hogan, The Rock or Steve Austin did, FFS.


Course i can - physically

i won’t do it well and i won’t draw - but can i go to a ring and complete a legdrop? Sure - you can too

will i ever be able to do a Canadian destroyer? No sir


----------



## WrestlingFlander (Dec 12, 2020)

THANOS said:


> EDIT: The biggest MOVIE ever made is about the biggest fake fight to end all the fake fights .


The movie, Avengers Endgame isn’t about the fake fighting, it’s a plot device/transition and doesn’t matter, the fighting literally was for the sole purpose of going from point a to point b, it’s a literal transitionary device, the character and ultimately the story is what matters.

No one paid to see moves, they paid to see the conclusion of a story, in fact if fake fighting mattered then it would’ve drawn less than Infinity war and a multitude of other marvel titles, which had way better fake fighting.

The biggest movie ever made is about the biggest story for the biggest character, and the end of that character & story.

The fighting no one cared for, if you did you’re in a niche. People cared about the jokes, story and characters, and the end of those characters.


----------



## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

Also..... a superkick.... is just a kick


----------



## DammitChrist (Apr 3, 2016)

WrestlingFlander said:


> It’s not wrestling, the Wrestling is fake.


The outcome of the wrestling matches are actually scripted, but the wrestling itself is not “fake.”

Try taking most of the bumps that the performers do on a weekly basis, and then tell them how “fake” it is for those wrestlers afterwards.I guarantee that you’d be feeling sore for quite a while.

Don’t be ignorant  



> WWF, WWE, WCW, ECW, AEW, TNA, etc are not Wrestling organizations, they are a Studio that produces a Fictional Action Adventure Series about wrestling.1


No, they are ALL wrestling companies that also incorporates entertainment by heavily featuring prominent characters, engaging storylines, compelling promos, and memorable segments along with the thrilling wrestling matches.




> And yes I do speak for the 13 million,


No, you *don’t* speak for those other 13 million people.

That’s the stupidest post I’ve seen today, and I’ve seen your other mediocre posts on here too. You do NOT represent the 13 million people who have varying opinions.

I guarantee you that there’d be a good number of them who would be entertained by the wrestling matches if all of those people just somehow happened to tune in next week.



> because I was there watching along with them when they were watching, they don’t like fake fights, if they did they would be watching right now, they want stories and characters, not in ring moves and fake fights.
> 
> Supply and Demand, the 13million(plus millions and million new fans who want stories and characters) want stories and characters and don’t care about fake fights, and these companies are Not Supplying that Demand.


If this was all true (which obviously isn’t), then why the hell would those people even bother tuning in to WWE or AEW in the first place when they’re most likely to get all of their stories and characters in movies, in prominent TV series, or in popular sitcoms?

Promotions like WWE and AEW are wrestling companies. They can’t really avoid the workrate in a freaking WRESTLING show.

That kinda defeats the purpose of what those promotions are partially about. Hell, it pretty much defeats the whole purpose of buying/tuning in for the ppvs since they almost exclusively feature wrestling matches.



> Hence business is failing, they supply to a niche which is unreasonable.


Business isn’t failing though. They’re actually growing (slowly at least) :lol

Oh, God forbid the company for catering to fans who want to see more wrestling during a pandemic. That’s so “unreasonable” of them 



> Also you’re 23 years old, you missed not one but both of the modern boom periods, so we shouldn’t listen to you on what draws.


You’re apparently older than me, and you’re supposed to know how this all works; so I guess we shouldn’t listen to you at all considering the fact that you’re supposed to understand why the viewership has declined in WWE, but yet it’s pretty obvious at this point that you clearly don’t since you have no clue at all due to your ridiculous points on here (by pretending that workrate is somehow ‘killing’ the business).

For the record, AEW has been alive for only one year, and a good portion of that time was spent during a PANDEMIC. They’ve managed to hold up their audience well in spite of COVID being around to hurt them since early-March. You can quit acting like their business is ‘failing.’


----------



## Brad Boyd (Jan 28, 2020)

WrestlingFlander said:


> And every single type of fake fighting, whether that be lucha, hardcore, puro, etc... is Niche.
> 
> Professional Wrestling is not and has never been about fake fighting, it’s about the storylines and characters, the fighting is a plot device, just like in every action adventure movie.
> 
> ...


Pretty solid comparison actually. I mean its like people who watch the Rush Hour series or any kind of action movie just for the action. Who does that exactly? Sure that's an important aspect to the movie as a whole, but the characters, the plots and the dialogue matter just as much if not more. The fight concludes all of the issues. Same goes for pro wrestling.

Some people act like AEW or WWE are always putting on great weekly shows because there were great matches. Great matches don't mean shit to me if the characters and storylines are stale. That's the issue with wrestling these days. Not enough good storylines so people mark over work rate and ignore all the other things that made wrestling exciting and watchable.

Are Young Bucks at all compelling as personalities? They are by far some of the stalest most generic looking dweebs I've ever seen in wrestling. And people that are fans of them only love them for their ring work. Unless, they're fans of listening to their promos? What do they bring to the table other than their gymnastic routines?


----------



## Thomazbr (Apr 26, 2009)

Brad Boyd said:


> Pretty solid comparison actually. I mean its like people who watch the Rush Hour series or any kind of action movie just for the action. Who does that exactly? Sure that's an important aspect to the movie as a whole, but the characters, the plots and the dialogue matter just as much if not more. The fight concludes all of the issues. Same goes for pro wrestling. Some people act like AEW or WWE are putting on great weekly shows because there were great matches. Great matches don't mean shit to me if the characters and storylines are stale. That's the issue with wrestling these days. Not enough good storylines so people mark over work rate and ignore all the other things that made wrestling exciting and watchable.
> 
> Are Young Bucks at all compelling as personalities? They are by far some of the stalest most generic looking dweebs I've ever seen in wrestling. And people that are fans of them only love them for their ring work. Unless, they're fans of listening to their promos? What do they bring to the table other than their gymnastic routines?


You should've literally picked any other movie series.
Jackie Chan became a megadraw in the first place because of his action.
People went to watch Rush Hour BECAUSE of Jackie and his brand of action. Everything else, like Chris Tucker being funny, was just a bonus.


----------



## Brad Boyd (Jan 28, 2020)

Thomazbr said:


> You should've literally picked any other movie series.
> Jackie Chan became a megadraw in the first place because of his action.


Oh of course him and Bruce Lee are great examples of that. I can't name many Jackie Chan movies off the top of my head so I went with Rush Hour, but the same applies for him. A lot of the great action scenes would be nothing if they didn't have good storylines and plots behind them right? Other wise they would just be fights for the sake of fights. Same goes for war movies or even marvel movies. We can literally make a comparison to any kind of genre of film that involves action.


----------



## Thomazbr (Apr 26, 2009)

Police Story is a revolutionary movie. It changed the landscape of hong kong cinema forever, it truly kickstarted Jackie's stardom and it's one of the most influential action movies ever made. It's truly a groundbreaking piece of cinema. It has a strong argument to be Jackie's magnum opus. It's a legendary piece of the medium. Everyone who even hints at the idea of enjoying an action movie should sit down and watch this movie at least once.

It has quite frankly a dogshit script and pretty poor story.

It's truly elevated and carried by the action.


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

Mike E said:


> Not disagreeing with you, however there is nothing anyone on this board can do about it. They are putting out the product that they want to. It obviously has an audience, and Khan is making money off of AEW. He appears to be happy with the direction, and his vote counts the most as far as the direction of the product goes.


This justifies whatever you want. The point is it could have a much larger audience



Thomazbr said:


> The biggest marvel movie ever made is about the biggest fake fight to end all the fake fights.


If you’re talking about Endgame, it is the pay-off to anout



DammitChrist said:


> Jesus Christ, I'll never get why there are STILL some folks who continue to downplay the wrestling aspect. i'll also never understand why the (obnoxious) anti-wrestling folks continue to act like the workrate MUST be entirely separate (or even de-emphasized) from the characters and promos.
> 
> Believe it or not 'kids,' workrate is still an important part of a wrestling show. The wrestlers still need to battle their issues out inside the ring at the end of the day, ESPECIALLY on ppvs too since at least 90% of those big events feature matches exclusively.
> 
> ...


You’ve projected a whole lot of bullshit onto me. First of all, the in-ring work is VERY important. I’ve never agreed with a wrestling vs. story dichotomy. Wrestling _can_ be a story. It _should_ be a story. The point is that it isn’t. Pointless moves without any psychology are like promos that don’t sell anything.

You’re calling this “thrilling.” No. It’s FUCKING BORING! Wrestling and fighting isn’t boring. Choreographed spots we’ve seen variations of a million times is fluff at this point. At least having an organic match means you are going to have the fight you are _supposed_ to have. If you are any good at your job, responding to audiences and knowing what impression you are giving physically.

“Workrate” is a bullshit internet term. What does it even mean? Hulk Hogan was a better worker than Nick Jackson. Fact. Why? More people gave a fuck about him and his matches over a way longer period of time. That’s the actual point of this.

You like something, but you’re using absolute bullshit to create a fake framework to justify it. People stopped watching wrestling because it got too fake, the work stopped being engaging and the personality work (promos + feuds) stopped being interesting.



Mike E said:


> AEW is making money, and constantly rates in the top 15 shows on Wednesday night. This week they were number 2 in the top 150. Khan is happy, and chooses the direction of the show. All I'm saying is the audience is there like it or not. We all have opinions of where wrestling should be, yours is not more important than anyone else's.


But they could be doing better by just being better and not throwing out everything we know



LifeInCattleClass said:


> Course i can - physically
> 
> i won’t do it well and i won’t draw - but can i go to a ring and complete a legdrop? Sure - you can too
> 
> will i ever be able to do a Canadian destroyer? No sir



No, you cannot go out there with the ability to engage thousands of people in arenas and millions on TV for years and years. You do not have that physical charisma, guaranteed. Can you throw a working punch? Almost the entire AEW roster can’t. Do you know how to sell? How about how to respond to a crowd?

Fuck, people really do think this shit is just moves, don’t they?

Also, a Canadian Destroyer is mostly the other guy.


----------



## WrestlingFlander (Dec 12, 2020)

DammitChrist said:


> The outcome of the wrestling matches are actually scripted, but the wrestling itself is not “fake.”
> 
> Try taking most of the bumps that the performers do on a weekly basis, and then tell them how “fake” it is for those wrestlers afterwards.I guarantee that you’d be feeling sore for quite a while.
> 
> Don’t be ignorant


Yes the wrestling is fake, its not real, it’s not meant to hurt, if it does you’re doing something wrong, hence a notch.

it’s like arguing The Avengers are not because Robert Downey Jr broke a sweat or got hurt doing something, don’t be ridiculous because it’s bordeing



DammitChrist said:


> No, you *don’t* speak for those other 13 million people.


Yes I do, I watched a boom period as it was going on with those 13 million, and they do not watch anymore, they do not want the niche style that you enjoy, nor do the 5+ extra million who left in the last few years, nor do casuals, millions and million of fans who could watch... but don’t.




DammitChrist said:


> If this was all true (which obviously isn’t), then why the hell would those people even bother tuning in to WWE or AEW in the first place when they’re most likely to get all of their stories and characters in movies, in prominent TV series, or in popular sitcoms?


Because there’s no other Fictional Action Adventure Character and Story serial about wrestling.

That’s like asking why do people watch comedies when they can watch drama, there’s different genres of fictional motion pictures and plays.

Professional Wrestling is an Action Adventure story and character series about wrestling, the actual wrestling, which is fake, is irrelevant an merely a plot device/environment for the story and characters to take place. It takes place live as in Broadway plays/operas, in Serials on TV as a TV series, and as Movies in PPV. Filmed in front of a live audience.

Likewise for example the movie Liar Liar isn’t about Lawyering, it’s a comedy movie about liar where the environment/plot device is a law firm. Caring about the Actual Legal practice in this movie would be nonsensical, likewise it is nonsensical to care and focus on moves and workrate in a fictional tv series about it.


----------



## Brad Boyd (Jan 28, 2020)

Thomazbr said:


> Police Story is a revolutionary movie. It changed the landscape of hong kong cinema forever, it truly kickstarted Jackie's stardom and it's one of the most influential action movies ever made. It's truly a groundbreaking piece of cinema. It has a strong argument to be Jackie's magnum opus. It's a legendary piece of the medium
> 
> It has quite frankly a dogshit script and pretty poor story.
> 
> It's truly elevated and carried by the action.


Probably comparable to listening to a Dean Malenko or Chris Benoit promo before a match.


----------



## WrestlingFlander (Dec 12, 2020)

Thomazbr said:


> Police Story is a revolutionary movie. It changed the landscape of hong kong cinema forever, it truly kickstarted Jackie's stardom and it's one of the most influential action movies ever made. It's truly a groundbreaking piece of cinema. It has a strong argument to be Jackie's magnum opus. It's a legendary piece of the medium
> 
> It has quite frankly a dogshit script and pretty poor story.
> 
> It's truly elevated and carried by the action.


Hence why it’s a renowned fake fighting movie, you want fake fights? That’s the premium.

If you want stories and characters then those movies aren’t for you, likewise if you want workrate and actual wrestling and care about wrestling moves, then Professional Wrestling isn’t for you.

A movie like Police Story ironically would be more suited to you.


----------



## Thomazbr (Apr 26, 2009)

Wrestling is live fake fighting.
Ignoring the fake fighting aspect is retarded.

I don't think i'm saying anything groundbreaking here.


----------



## Schwartzxz (Jul 9, 2017)

rbl85 said:


> An easy way to make this spot look better is just focus the camera on the guy who's going to jump over the rope, that way you see the other wrestlers at the last moment and you don't have the image of them waiting for it.


or stop doing stupid spots like that one


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

Thomazbr said:


> Police Story is a revolutionary movie. It changed the landscape of hong kong cinema forever, it truly kickstarted Jackie's stardom and it's one of the most influential action movies ever made. It's truly a groundbreaking piece of cinema. It has a strong argument to be Jackie's magnum opus. It's a legendary piece of the medium
> 
> It has quite frankly a dogshit script and pretty poor story.
> 
> It's truly elevated and carried by the action.


Jackie Chan is a fucking GENIUS. These are not fair comparisons at all.

Is Police Story the one where he literally runs down a skyscraper roof? A tope con hilo ain’t exactly that, even with a twist.

His fights are also geared to make you care about an outcome. He’s so clearly a babyface. He’s also got a clear goal and every thing he does moves towards that. If Jackie Chan stopped in a fight to do a synchronised chicken dance with the guy trying to kill him Police Story would have been anywhere near as effective? The action IS the story.

Never mind the stakes of the action. It’s almost literally life or death. Nothing in wrestling is pushed to really matter. “Their Jackie Chan” has a fight with World Title implications and he looks bored after it. 

Jackie Chan is also aided by being one of the most charismatic men on the planet. Seriously, if this guy got into wrestling NOW he would learn to work better than almost everyone and would be their biggest babyface in a single match.


----------



## WrestlingFlander (Dec 12, 2020)

Brad Boyd said:


> Probably comparable to listening to a Dean Malenko or Chris Benoit promo before a match.


They were in the wrong business, they wanted to do Amateur Wrestling on a Fictional Action Adventure series about Wrestling.

Hence why they didn’t draw. They didn’t care to improve mic and acting skills, yet wanted to be apart of a tv show, an acting gig.

That is nonsensical


----------



## Thomazbr (Apr 26, 2009)

The Wood said:


> Jackie Chan is a fucking GENIUS. These are not fair comparisons at all.
> 
> Is Police Story the one where he literally runs down a skyscraper roof? A tope con hilo ain’t exactly that, even with a twist.
> 
> ...


No that's Who I Am. Police Story is the one where Jackie slids down a pole from the third floor of a shopping mall burning his hand and breaking glass along the down

I mean.
It's Jackie Chan, so yes.







I agree that it's probably not a fair comparison. Jackie is a once in a lifetime talent. The entire brand of young prime Jackie will probably never be truly duplicated because you needed a talent like him and a industry like Hong Kong was around his time. People should appreciate Jackie for what he is.

I also believe what Jackie did isn't too different from what a pro wrestler does. Of course there are differences to it, specially because of the medium, but I don't see how Jackie Chan movies aren't the ideal that wrestlers should be reaching.

Look i'm not saying the current wrestling style is good or not. That's not my point. My whole argument is that pro wrestling IS about the fake fighting.


----------



## DammitChrist (Apr 3, 2016)

Brad Boyd said:


> Pretty solid comparison actually. I mean its like people who watch the Rush Hour series or any kind of action movie just for the action. Who does that exactly? Sure that's an important aspect to the movie as a whole, but the characters, the plots and the dialogue matter just as much if not more. The fight concludes all of the issues. Same goes for pro wrestling.
> 
> Some people act like AEW or WWE are always putting on great weekly shows because there were great matches. Great matches don't mean shit to me if the characters and storylines are stale. That's the issue with wrestling these days. Not enough good storylines so people mark over work rate and ignore all the other things that made wrestling exciting and watchable.
> 
> Are Young Bucks at all compelling as personalities? They are by far some of the stalest most generic looking dweebs I've ever seen in wrestling. And people that are fans of them only love them for their ring work. Unless, they're fans of listening to their promos? What do they bring to the table other than their gymnastic routines?


Yikes, you’re one of those anti-workrate folks too? :deandre

Dude, you not being appreciative enough of the wrestling aspect doesn’t change the fact workrate matters just as much as promos, characters, storylines, and segments do. They all matter in their own way. It’s beyond obnoxious how the anti-wrestling folks continue to downplay the wrestling aspect on here.

For the record, you DO realize that the reason why the remaining fans who watch WWE ‘mark’ over the workrate is because it’s the most consistent quality that the company delivers every week involving many of their wrestlers.

The unreliable creative team waters down their own characters. Their segments tend to be hit-or-miss (with the exception of some talents). The inconsistent booking messes with the momentum for many of their talents, and it’s responsible to why the charisma of various wrestlers isn’t presented/showcased to the fullest. The promos are generally heavily scripted too, which restricts how natural and how good many of their talents sound when they cut (manufactured) promos.

That pretty much only leaves the workrate. WWE has so many good wrestlers on their roster, and it’s pretty much impossible for management to control or ruin a match while the performers are wrestling in the ring; so that’s generally why many fans genuinely look forward to the wrestling matches. The workrate is generally the highlight of the show too since everything else (promos, characters, segments, and presentation of charisma) tends to be watered down, unreliable, or inconsistent.


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

What is workrate? Can someone explain it to me? How is it calculated?


----------



## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

I watched a lot of Jackie Chan's movies as a kid with subtitles on. I guess I went through a phase where I really liked him because of Rush Hour.

I dug the action but I was always emotionally invested in his story and was rooting him on. I didn't just sit there and go "Owowowow look at that kick to the face"

Without emotional investment you have zero.


----------



## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

The Wood said:


> What is workrate? Can someone explain it to me? How is it calculated?


Ooooh this will be good. I've not met many people who actually know what "work" means let alone workrate


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

Chip Chipperson said:


> I watched a lot of Jackie Chan's movies as a kid with subtitles on. I guess I went through a phase where I really liked him because of Rush Hour.
> 
> I dug the action but I was always emotionally invested in his story and was rooting him on. I didn't just sit there and go "Owowowow look at that kick to the face"
> 
> Without emotional investment you have zero.


This is a much more succinct way of saying what I was trying to get to. Thanks!


----------



## Schwartzxz (Jul 9, 2017)

famicommander said:


> Gold Medal winning vaults:
> 
> 
> 
> ...





VIP86 said:


> comparing PRO wrestling with gymnastics instead of comparing it with olympic wrestling or a legitimate fighting sport ? 🤦‍♂️
> legends who created the history of PRO wrestling are turning in their graves


I am one of many fans who were mocking these wrestlers by calling them gymnasts because of them doing stupid gymnastics in the ring instead of trying to make it look like they are fighting each other and now this guy is directly comparing wrestling to gymnastics 🤦‍♂️
but thats why wrestling is like that these days. people care more about the moves than anything else. any old school wrestler including Jericho of all people will tell you its not about the moves. and its not.


----------



## Thomazbr (Apr 26, 2009)

Also one more thing the whole "why don't you just watch amateur wrestling" is dumb.
In amateur wrestling I can't actually watch someone do a canadian destroyer on someone.

You might say that's probably a good thing, but still. That's a specific brand of (fake) fighting that I can only get on pro wrestling and pro wrestling adjacent media.

Shoutout Boone the Bounty Hunter where John Morrison did a wall run canadian destroyer on some random dude. It's definitively not a good movie but it's pretty underrated as far as DTV action movies go. The fight scenes were shot pretty poorly but the parkour stuff going on is pretty uh compelling i guess and Morrison's brand of parkour fu is pretty fun


----------



## Brad Boyd (Jan 28, 2020)

DammitChrist said:


> Yikes, you’re one of those anti-workrate folks too? :deandre
> 
> Dude, you not being appreciative enough of the wrestling aspect doesn’t change the fact workrate matters just as much as promos, characters, storylines, and segments do. They all matter in their own way. It’s beyond obnoxious how the anti-wrestling folks continue to downplay the wrestling aspect on here.
> 
> ...


I'm not anti work rate. I don't know where you got that idea from or why you assumed that. I'm always appreciative of a great match. When people are hired solely for their work rate and even suck at that (Young Bucks are an example) and don't really have much in terms of personality or mic skills, it surprises me that they were even considered for a job in the first place. Bucks lack story telling. They lack making sense out of any spot they choose to do. I've yet to see any decent match aside from the odd moment where "Oh that move is cool" "Cool bull dog/spinning backbreaker combo on two opponents bruh"

As far as creativity holding people back from expressing their full potential, you're right to an extent, but yet we see more ambitious people who take the time to work hard, remember their lines and deliver their promos well in WWE. Are the creative fully to blame when people actually excel at their job and don't deliver horrible promos like Charlotte Flair? Compare her to the likes of Carmella, Alexa, Zelina Vega etc.

Young Bucks and others in AEW have more creative freedom and they are still aren't amazing at promos either. So its not always completely on the company every time a wrestler sucks at doing their job. Apart of their job description is to act, and yet some don't know how to do that and everyone's like "well they're wrestlers not actors. It ain't their fault" While somewhat true, there are enough bad promos delivered by people that guys write themselves in AEW.


----------



## patpat (Feb 17, 2019)

Jr isnt the problem. These flying geeks are. Because when they drop on their fuckin head and get hurt the company is going to take the heat! 
These guys do way too much fucking dives


----------



## CM Buck (Sep 2, 2012)

wrestlingflander. . I hate hate when people piss on wrestling despite being fans of it. No shit its fucking fake but you still get hurt from taking bumps for years. Guarantee even safe workers have trouble getting up in the morning from landing on cushioned plywood every week. Even running the ropes hurt. You are coming off very arrogant and like you are better than us by saying its fake. No shit its fake. 

It probably hurts even more because of the more complex and dangerous moves today. So Jr is right. But to imply that wrestlers don't get hurt even from doing stuff correctly is so asinine.


----------



## WrestlingFlander (Dec 12, 2020)

DammitChrist said:


> Dude, you not being appreciative enough of the wrestling aspect doesn’t change the fact workrate matters just as much as promos, characters, storylines, and segments do.












Appreciate what?

A flip? A move? So what if someone turns their body, stimulates hitting someone or does gymnastics.

How does that provoke an emotion? How does that make the person think? How does that inspire someone? As a tv series should do?

It doesn’t, hence it doesn’t draw.


----------



## CM Buck (Sep 2, 2012)

WrestlingFlander said:


> Appreciate what?
> 
> A flip? A move? So what if someone turns their body, stimulates hitting someone or does gymnastics.
> 
> ...


Japanese wrestling says his. They are very appreciative of in ring work. Even Hiroshi Tanahashi hitting a dragon screw gets a big pop.


----------



## WrestlingFlander (Dec 12, 2020)

Firefromthegods said:


> wrestlingflander. . I hate hate when people piss on wrestling despite being fans of it. No shit its fucking fake but you still get hurt from taking bumps for years. Guarantee even safe workers have trouble getting up in the morning from landing on cushioned plywood every week. Even running the ropes hurt. You are coming off very arrogant and like you are better than us by saying its fake. No shit its fake.
> 
> It probably hurts even more because of the more complex and dangerous moves today. So Jr is right. But to imply that wrestlers don't get hurt even from doing stuff correctly is so asinine.


It doesn’t matter if people get hurt, Professional Wrestling is fake. People get hurt on movies and plays... it’s still fake, that doesn’t make me superior or arrogant or anything it’s the truth, and if that bothers you and if you see that as arrogant, there might be an underlying problem. 

I’ve watched for 20+ years, someone calling it fake doesn’t bother me as it is factually fake. Neither did it bother millions and millions who watched back then too.

You don’t see fans of a particular movie get upset when they call it fake and neither should a wrestling fan, if they think it’s real then it’s better they don’t watch because that’s not healthy thinking.


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

Brad Boyd said:


> I'm not anti work rate. I don't know where you got that idea from or why you assumed that. I'm always appreciative of a great match. When people are hired solely for their work rate and even suck at that (Young Bucks are an example) and don't really have much in terms of personality or mic skills, it surprises me that they were even considered for a job in the first place. Bucks lack story telling. They lack making sense out of any spot they choose to do. I've yet to see any decent match aside from the odd moment where "Oh that move is cool" "Cool bull dog/spinning backbreaker combo on two opponents bruh"
> 
> As far as creativity holding people back from expressing their full potential, you're right to an extent, but yet we see more ambitious people who take the time to work hard, remember their lines and deliver their promos well in WWE. Are the creative fully to blame when people actually excel at their job and don't deliver horrible promos like Charlotte Flair? Compare her to the likes of Carmella, Alexa, Zelina Vega etc.
> 
> Young Bucks and others in AEW have more creative freedom and they are still aren't amazing at promos either. So its not always completely on the company every time a wrestler sucks at doing their job. Apart of their job description is to act, and yet some don't know how to do that and everyone's like "well they're wrestlers not actors. It ain't their fault" While somewhat true, there are enough bad promos delivered by people that guys write themselves in AEW.


He’s created a dichotomy in his head and is projecting that onto everyone who says this shit needs more meaning. I really doubt he’d be able to explain what he actually means by workrate.


----------



## DammitChrist (Apr 3, 2016)

Brad Boyd said:


> I'm not anti work rate. I don't know where you got that idea from or why you assumed that. I'm always appreciative of a great match. When people are hired solely for their work rate and even suck at that (Young Bucks are an example) and don't really have much in terms of personality or mic skills, it surprises me that they were even considered for a job in the first place. Bucks lack story telling. They lack making sense out of any spot they choose to do. I've yet to see any decent match aside from the odd moment where "Oh that move is cool" "Cool bull dog/spinning backbreaker combo on two opponents bruh"
> 
> As far as creativity holding people back from expressing their full potential, you're right to an extent, but yet we see more ambitious people who take the time to work hard, remember their lines and deliver their promos well in WWE. Are the creative fully to blame when people actually excel at their job and don't deliver horrible promos like Charlotte Flair? Compare her to the likes of Carmella, Alexa, Zelina Vega etc.
> 
> Young Bucks and others in AEW have more creative freedom and they are still aren't amazing at promos either. So its not always completely on the company every time a wrestler sucks at doing their job. Apart of their job description is to act, and yet some don't know how to do that and everyone's like "well they're wrestlers not actors. It ain't their fault" While somewhat true, there are enough bad promos delivered by people that guys write themselves in AEW.


Honestly, I find Charlotte Flair to be above-average on the promo department. She can be pretty good on the mic when she’s at her best. Charlotte just suffers with her scripted promos sounding repetitive often enough.

Plus, I think the Young Bucks have demonstrated that they’re capable of delivering lengthy, exciting matches with storytelling such as the one against Kenny Omega plus Adam Page at AEW Revolution, and the other one against FTR at Full Gear.


----------



## WrestlingFlander (Dec 12, 2020)

Firefromthegods said:


> Japanese wrestling says his. They are very appreciative of in ring work. Even Hiroshi Tanahashi hitting a dragon screw gets a big pop.


Japanese wrestling is irrelevant in the United States, it doesn’t draw and has never drawn, it has a very small niche fanbase in the U.S.

So I don’t know why you’re bringing it up


----------



## HankHill_85 (Aug 31, 2011)

JR's not wrong, and it's also not surprising that Brandon Cutler, pretty much the bag boy for the Young Bucks, took to Twitter with that passive-aggressive post. It's cool dude, you can brush off perfectly legitimate criticisms by one of the best minds and voices in the business. Hey, how's that burgeoning career on AEW's YouTube show? Or handling the camera for BTE? Smell that main event spot one day!


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

Firefromthegods said:


> Japanese wrestling says his. They are very appreciative of in ring work. Even Hiroshi Tanahashi hitting a dragon screw gets a big pop.


Tanahashi is one of the best in-ring babyfaces of all-time. Look, presence, psychology, building a match, etc. He’s not just a bunch of Sling Blades and a Frog Splash.

Tanahashi could get over anywhere. He’s REALLY fucking good. Is he perfect at selling? If I were being hyper-critical, I’d say that he sometimes goes into “super mode” and stops selling stuff perfectly, but I think that’s a conscious decision because he‘s The Ace and will suck it up. But he’s a 9/10 in-ring wrestler even if you want to hold that against him.

Some of the “workrate” guys can’t strike and definitely can’t sell. They also put their matches together like video game fights (not even trying to use a Cornette-ism here) instead of struggles over personal reputation or whatever Tanahashi mainly fights for these days.

If you want to do a New Japan/North American promotion crossover, I would much rather see Tanahashi trying to fight a dominant Roman Reigns than a flashy Kenny Omega, because the story told between Reigns and Tanahashi, even just physically, would be brilliant.


----------



## DammitChrist (Apr 3, 2016)

Firefromthegods said:


> Japanese wrestling says his. They are very appreciative of in ring work. Even Hiroshi Tanahashi hitting a dragon screw gets a big pop.


Man, I always get really hyped up whenever Hiroshi Tanahashi executes the Dragon Screw :mark:



The Wood said:


> He’s created a dichotomy in his head and is projecting that onto everyone who says this shit needs more meaning. I really doubt he’d be able to explain what he actually means by workrate.


Anti-wrestling folks say that term all the time whenever they blatantly downplay the in-ring aspect. Don’t act like I coined the ‘workrate’ term.

For the record, I would MUCH rather see Hiroshi Tanahashi face Kenny Omega (over Roman Reigns). THOSE 2 guys are among the best wrestlers on the planet (to me at least).


----------



## CM Buck (Sep 2, 2012)

WrestlingFlander said:


> It doesn’t matter if people get hurt, Professional Wrestling is fake. People get hurt on movies and plays... it’s still fake, that doesn’t make me superior or arrogant or anything it’s the truth, and if that bothers you and if you see that as arrogant, there might be an underlying problem.
> 
> I’ve watched for 20+ years, someone calling it fake doesn’t bother me as it is factually fake. Neither did it bother millions and millions who watched back then too.
> 
> You don’t see fans of a particular movie get upset when they call it fake and neither should a wrestling fan, if they think it’s real then it’s better they don’t watch because that’s not healthy thinking.


Don't try to psychoanalysis me pal. Let me ask you something. Hulk Hogan is the safest wrestler of all time. Not counting the broken leg in training and blade jobs, he had a very simple shtick. His back and hips are now fucked from years of leg drops.

Now, how can that be? He always hit them correctly. He always did them safe. You're saying if you do wrestling 100 percent perfectly its impossible to be hurt.

Why is hogans back messed up then?

@The Wood he was saying that crowds don't pop for in ring work. The leg whips insanely over because Tanahashi made it matter. If he said that American wrestlers dilute moves so they hardly generate a pop he would be right. But he said that all wrestling moves cannot draw a reaction.

Tanahashi proves that false


----------



## WrestlingFlander (Dec 12, 2020)

Firefromthegods said:


> Don't try to psychoanalysis me pal. Let me ask you something. Hulk Hogan is the safest wrestler of all time. Not counting the broken leg in training and blade jobs, he had a very simple shtick. His back and hips are now fucked from years of leg drops.
> 
> Now, how can that be? He always hit them correctly. He always did them safe. You're saying if you do wrestling 100 percent perfectly its impossible to be hurt.
> 
> Why is hogans back messed up then?


That’s irrelevant, just because he mostly worked safe doesn’t mean he always did it correctly, no wrestler does.

Even when they get hurt it’s still fake. Law and Order doesn’t become real because Rosie Perez herniated her disc... it’s still fake.

Professional Wrestling is fake, if you have a problem with someone pointing out the obvious, then that’s an internal issue, doesn’t change the fact.


----------



## Schwartzxz (Jul 9, 2017)

The Wood said:


> No, you cannot go out there with the ability to engage thousands of people in arenas and millions on TV for years and years. You do not have that physical charisma, guaranteed. Can you throw a working punch? Almost the entire AEW roster can’t. Do you know how to sell? How about how to respond to a crowd?
> 
> Fuck, people really do think this shit is just moves, don’t they?


this is where we are at. its a lost battle. a lot of the fans and wrestlers think this is all just about the moves and its gonna get worse and worse. I dont even know if those guys really are wrestling fans at all. they want wrestling to be everything that its not supposed to be. imagine if somebody said "baseball is boring to me. let me change everything about it to my liking so its not really baseball anymore and then Ill be a fan of it" thats how all this sounds to me.


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

DammitChrist said:


> Man, I always get really hyped up whenever Hiroshi Tanahashi executes the Dragon Screw :mark:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I’m not saying you made it up, I’m saying that it’s a bullshit term. Anti-wrestling folks are the ones who say things like “don’t watch” and “wrestling is supposed to be stupid” and make fun of people for actually wanting it to be good.


----------



## WrestlingFlander (Dec 12, 2020)

Schwartzxz said:


> this is where we are at. its a lost battle. a lot of the fans and wrestlers think this is all just about the moves and its gonna get worse and worse. I dont even know if those guys really are wrestling fans at all. they want wrestling to be everything that its not supposed to be. imagine if somebody said "baseball is boring to me. let me change everything about it to my liking so its not really baseball anymore and then Ill be a fan of it" thats how all this sounds to me.


There’s a niche in every genre, there are a niche who think marvel should stop the comedy and focus on the battles...

Difference is no one listens and appeals to them, they appeal to the masses.

Only professional wrestling does this, the culture isn’t normal, and more and more are leaving it


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

Perhaps the most destructive thing to creep into the heads of promoters is that there may be fewer fans but they spend more per head.

1 fan spending $150 on wrestling is going to make you way less than 15 fans spending $100 on wrestling. 10x as much.


----------



## CM Buck (Sep 2, 2012)

WrestlingFlander said:


> That’s irrelevant, just because he mostly worked safe doesn’t mean he always did it correctly, no wrestler does.
> 
> Even when they get hurt it’s still fake. Law and Order doesn’t become real because Rosie Perez herniated her disc... it’s still fake.
> 
> Professional Wrestling is fake, if you have a problem with someone pointing out the obvious, then that’s an internal issue, doesn’t change the fact.


OK you are being rude now. I asked you not to psychoanalyse me and question my mental health. Do it again and you are in violation of the rules. Questioning the mental capacity of members is an insult to to them

What I said was absolutely not irrelevant. You said its impossible to not be hurt if you do things correctly. Hogan always did. And he himself said his injuries are due to the leg drop.

So therefore due to wear and tear from years of wrestling his quality of life sucks. If you think you can wrestle for 30 years and not have some form of ache or pain when you get older then you clearly do not understand professional wrestling


----------



## THANOS (Jun 20, 2006)

Thomazbr said:


> Police Story is a revolutionary movie. It changed the landscape of hong kong cinema forever, it truly kickstarted Jackie's stardom and it's one of the most influential action movies ever made. It's truly a groundbreaking piece of cinema. It has a strong argument to be Jackie's magnum opus. It's a legendary piece of the medium. Everyone who even hints at the idea of enjoying an action movie should sit down and watch this movie at least once.
> 
> It has quite frankly a dogshit script and pretty poor story.
> 
> It's truly elevated and carried by the action.


I'll add another to this argument. How about the Raid? One of the greatest movies ever made, and the entire story is told through one choreographed fight scene to the next. Each one with unique battles made entirely of fighting.


----------



## WrestlingFlander (Dec 12, 2020)

The Wood said:


> Perhaps the most destructive thing to creep into the heads of promoters is that there may be fewer fans but they spend more per head.
> 
> 1 fan spending $150 on wrestling is going to make you way less than 15 fans spending $100 on wrestling. 10x as much.





The Wood said:


> Perhaps the most destructive thing to creep into the heads of promoters is that there may be fewer fans but they spend more per head.
> 
> 1 fan spending $150 on wrestling is going to make you way less than 15 fans spending $100 on wrestling. 10x as much.


They raised prices because otherwise they wouldn’t make money.

The only reason WWE & AEW make any money is because their prices

Front row for Wrestlemania during the attitude era was about $300-400, now it’s about $2,000-$3,000, even by inflation that’s out of whack.

Hence why no casuals go to the show, only fanatics go and they will pay whatever it costs to go, so they push the prices higher and higher far Beyond their market value.

Then those fanatics highjack shows and cheer workrate that encourages these companies to listen to these niches, not realizing that they are a niche gathered up, no matter how loud they get.

It’s a vicious circular cycle that’s destructive.

High prices —> Casuals don’t come to shows —> Niche fanatics come to shows because they’ll pay whatever and hijack shows and cheer ridiculousness —> Appeal to niche —-> High prices due to no casuals turning up

Simple solution, appeal to casuals and lower prices.

There’s a reason Marvel didn’t listen to fanatics who go to comic con, they don’t represent the entire fanbase.


----------



## WrestlingFlander (Dec 12, 2020)

Firefromthegods said:


> What I said was absolutely not irrelevant. You said its impossible to not be hurt if you do things correctly. Hogan always did. And he himself said his injuries are due to the leg drop.


Due to this disingenuous & hyperbolic strawman of claiming “Hogan always did” it correct, I’m going to dismiss your post, it still stands, wrestling is fake, people get hurt, just like they do in acting, stunt work, and etc... it’s still fake.

As I explained, just because Rosie Perez herniated her disc, doesn’t mean Law and Order is real, it’s fake. Likewise Terry Bollea injuring his back doesn’t make wrestling real.


----------



## CM Buck (Sep 2, 2012)

WrestlingFlander said:


> Due to this disingenuous & hyperbolic strawman of claiming “Hogan always did” it correct, I’m going to dismiss your post, it still stands, wrestling is fake, people get hurt, just like they do in acting, stunt work, and etc... it’s still fake.
> 
> As I explained, just because Rosie Perez herniated her disc, doesn’t mean Law and Order is real, it’s fake. Likewise Terry Bollea injuring his back doesn’t make wrestling real.


Im not saying its real don't be so condescending, you made it sound like its impossible to get hurt if you do it correctly. And I gave you an example of it being done correctly and still causing long term damage.

Rosie hurt herself in an accident. Terry hurt himself due to years of wear and tear. My point is you are completely undervaluing wear and tear.

But if you want a second opinion and to shut me down completely. @The Wood is wrestling fake enough to the point I could do a leg drop for 30 years like hogan and not suffer back issues when I'm his age?


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

WrestlingFlander said:


> They raised prices because otherwise they wouldn’t make money.
> 
> The only reason WWE & AEW make any money is because their prices
> 
> ...


This is an excellent post. I want you to stick around. Just be careful with the tone of your posts, because Fire seems annoyed, even though I actually don’t see you insulting his mental health in there at all. Instead of saying “internal issues,” maybe just rephrase or leave the point?

Great actual content though. Never really thought about the cycle of pumping up ticket prices. I knew WWE (maybe AEW?) were doing it, but the idea of them cycling that into their direction is definitely weird and destructive.

WrestleMania — wrestling’s biggest show — being a nesting ground for the most smarkish audiences is definitely a bit surreal. You’re basically building to this mega-show that is going to be more like a mega-church that is going to be more into Drew Gulak than Randy Orton. Okay, that might be a stretch, but it’s trending that way.

I wonder how much of that has to do with WWE wanting to announce big week revenue and stimulate local economies? Or how much is just them trying to pinch a short-term penny?


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

Firefromthegods said:


> Im not saying its real don't be so condescending, you made it sound like its impossible to get hurt if you do it correctly. And I gave you an example of it being done correctly and still causing long term damage.
> 
> Rosie hurt herself in an accident. Terry hurt himself due to years of wear and tear. My point is you are completely undervaluing wear and tear.
> 
> But if you want a second opinion and to shut me down completely. @The Wood is wrestling fake enough to the point I could do a leg drop for 30 years like hogan and not suffer back issues when I'm his age?


I think there is more control in the Leg Drop and less chance of you getting freakishly injured. Also think you’re probably going to be a bigger star, haha.

Better to do a leg drop from a standing position than a leg drop from the second rope. Better to do one from the second rope than the top. Better the top than the top to the floor. Better from the top to the floor than a ladder in the ring to the floor, etc.

There’s definitely working smarter. Nothing is risk free and going to allow you to go forever.


----------



## WrestlingFlander (Dec 12, 2020)

Firefromthegods said:


> Im not saying its real don't be so condescending, you made it sound like its impossible to get hurt if you do it correctly. And I gave you an example of it being done correctly and still causing long term damage.
> 
> Rosie hurt herself in an accident. Terry hurt himself due to years of wear and tear. My point is you are completely undervaluing wear and tear.
> 
> But if you want a second opinion and to shut me down completely. @The Wood is wrestling fake enough to the point I could do a leg drop for 30 years like hogan and not suffer back issues when I'm his age?


There are many wrestlers who don’t have herniated disc and did more painful things. It’s irrelevant, I know many who have herniated discs and twisted spines, who lived a sedentary lifestyle.

Wrestling is fake, Movies are fake.

The problem comes when you don’t adhere to psychology, you have to pretend it’s real. This particular movie is wrestling, but they want to pretend to be a video game, even in superhero movies they sell.


----------



## Not Lying (Sep 9, 2013)

Why does every thread criticising spots need to be turned into "workrate don't matter", when workrate was never and will never be about spots.

Being able to work and wrestle is important, more important than ever, downplaying its importance is stupid, but how to work is different. These spots of waiting for someone to catch them in an awkward manner is stupid, dangerous, counter productive, but it does not represent "workrate".


----------



## Thomazbr (Apr 26, 2009)

Wrestling much like stuntdriven movies like John Wick, Mission Impossible and any Jackie Chan movie gets a lot of mileage out of appealing to reality.
Just see how they market a new Mission Impossible movie. They show their new suicidal stunt and say "That's really Tom Cruise dangling from an airplane, or breaking his foot during a stunt or whatever". It's really Keanu Reeves doing those cool judo throws and being all cool with the gun. And it's most definitively Jackie Chan nearly dying from falling from a tree and cracking his skull.
The same way it might be fake but it is Hulk Hogan dropping the leg one someone. It really is the Young Bucks doing that convoluted gravity defying Canadian Destroyer spot. It really is Kobashi dropping someone on their head with a Burning Hammer. It's larger than life but at the same time it's real. And this is the kind of stuff that can only happen in the ring where the fake fighting lies.


----------



## WrestlingFlander (Dec 12, 2020)

Thomazbr said:


> Wrestling much like stuntdriven movies like John Wick, Mission Impossible and any Jackie Chan movie gets a lot of mileage out of appealing to reality.
> Just see how they market a new Mission Impossible movie. They show their new suicidal stunt and say "That's really Tom Cruise dangling from an airplane, or breaking his foot during a stunt or whatever". It's really Keanu Reeves doing those cool judo throws and being all cool with the gun. And it's most definitively Jackie Chan nearly dying from falling from a tree and cracking his skull.
> The same way it might be fake but it is Hulk Hogan dropping the leg one someone. It really is the Young Bucks doing that convoluted Canadian Destroyer spot. It really is Kobashi dropping someone on their head with a Burning Hammer. It's larger than life but at the same time it's real.


Professional Wrestling isn’t a stunt movie like a Jackie Chan or Mission Impossible movie.

You want to use Tom Cruise?

A better example is Top Gun, that’s what wrestling is supposed to be. A story and character action adventure about a Navy Pilot.

Top Gun isn’t about aviation, aviation moves or stunts, it’s about Maverick, his character and story.


----------



## Thomazbr (Apr 26, 2009)

No, It's Mission Impossible.

Sorry bro.

And if we're talking about drawing you better hope its Mission Impossible too over Top Gun.


----------



## qntntgood (Mar 12, 2010)

prosperwithdeen said:


> *"Ross was asked if moves such as Michaels’ superkick or Jake Roberts’ DDT should be protected or is this just an evolution of the business. He said, “That evolution of the business is bs. Yes, they should be protected. The DDT is a finish. The superkick is just a part of the flow of the match (now). Nobody wins with it. What does that say to you? Does that say guys back in the day were more proficient in delivering a DDT or a superkick than in this generation where ‘things are evolving’? I want some proof of that shit. I want somebody to prove to me that the changing of the wrestling business is what it is today and it’s making a difference. I say no. I told a kid the other day at AEW that everybody does the same fucking spot. All you guys go outside. You cluster up like coils. You stand there in a huddle, friends and foes together, side by side so you can catch some leaping idiot going over the top who never wins with this move. They are looking for the “holy shit chant. They love to hear ‘this is awesome’. It’s a spot folks. It’s a trapeze act. I don’t buy into that. The DDT is a great finish and should be used as such.”
> 
> Source: Grilling JR podcast.*
> 
> ...


A while back I thought about writing thread,on weather ring psychology and selling were dead like kayfabe.because the current climate in wrestling outside of mlw,new Japan,nwa are sorely lacking.


----------



## Lorromire (Jun 17, 2014)

Why is everyone mad at Cutler? He's clearly just ribbing lol.

JR is right, though. High spots can have a purpose but if everyone on the same show does it then it's fucking pointless. I want moves to actually mean something.


----------



## qntntgood (Mar 12, 2010)

Lorromire said:


> Why is everyone mad at Cutler? He's clearly just ribbing lol.
> 
> JR is right, though. High spots can have a purpose but if everyone on the same show does it then it's fucking pointless. I want moves to actually mean something.


Dose anyone had the hour by hour numbers, for last week's show. because I'm sure young bucks match might turned some people away,because it you have see one young bucks match you've see them all.


----------



## Thomazbr (Apr 26, 2009)

Bucks are a pretty consistent draw for the AEW audience tbh.

Now of cours eyou can say that they aren't drawing as well as AEW should but still.


----------



## The Raw Smackdown (Jan 8, 2017)

Ok Let me say some shit.

1. People need to understand that the actual wrestling matters in pro wresting. Do stories and characters matter? Hell yeah. But the workrate matters just as much because without that what do you really have? They go hand in hand to make wrestling what it is today. 

2. It's funny to me how some people in this thread shitted on other AEW wrestlers for basically joking/talking shit but yet JR is basically being disrespectful as fuck to AEW, To Tony, and alot of the wrestlers yet that's totally fine. Shit like this is what should be grounds for termination. Not Big Swole playfully calling out someone on Twitter. Keep that same energy.

3. I will say that JR SOMEWHAT has a point. Don't get me wrong I don't mind the high flying style but everyone does it and it does become ho-hum. I'd like to see some variety in styles of wrestling. And I don't like that Finishers are devalued so I can rock with What JR is saying to a degree.


----------



## The XL 2 (Sep 13, 2016)

The guys from the 90s and early 2000s who worked an athletic styles with a decent amount of high spots still know how to incorporate logic and storytelling into their matches. Guys like HBK, Eddie Guerrero, Kidman, Rey Mysterio Jr, etc. Now they just do random spots, and their spots don't even look that good tbh


----------



## CenaBoy4Life (Jul 31, 2013)

Good luck trying to reach anyone on the roster when the worst fucking tag team of all time the young cucks are EVPS


----------



## WrestlingFlander (Dec 12, 2020)

If they ever politic against JR, it would be a pubic relations nightmare, even the most smarks and workrate fanatics wouldn’t support that.


----------



## The Raw Smackdown (Jan 8, 2017)

Thomazbr said:


> I hope everyone here spent money on Lucha Underground.


You know they didn't and that's why I low key think this STORY AND CHARACTERS ARE WHAT DRAWZ shit is BS because LU had that in spades and hardly anyone gave a fuck.

But alot of the wrestlers were high flyers and did flips so maybe that was it. 

Now granted LU did have it's issues in terms of people really finding it. It was on a network alot of people didn't get but in this day and age that could've easily been worked around. Not to mention it was on Netflix at one point too. 

Man I miss Lucha Underground Greatest thing I've ever seen in wrestling.


----------



## La Parka (Oct 28, 2008)

The Raw Smackdown said:


> You know they didn't and that's why I low key think this STORY AND CHARACTERS ARE WHAT DRAWZ shit is BS because LU had that in spades and hardly anyone gave a fuck.
> 
> But alot of the wrestlers were high flyers and did flips so maybe that was it.
> 
> ...


Surely there can be stories without having intergender matches, guys set on fire and having hardcore matches on every show.


----------



## Eva MaRIHyse (Jun 20, 2014)

DammitChrist said:


> No, the real issue is that anti-smarks like yourself keep denying the fact that promotions like AEW is a *wrestling* company.
> 
> You don’t speak for the rest of the “13 million” audience who are (most likely) interested in watching performers wrestle, fight, and battle each other inside the ring. I don’t expect you to like that considering how you’re not even appreciative of the actual wrestling aspect (along with the rest of the other anti-workrate folks), but I *expect* you to respect the fact that there are still plenty of other fans who are actually appreciative of the in-ring aspect of the show. You have no right to tell me (or everyone else) what to enjoy just because you dislike the wrestling part so much. You’ve failed to convince me that the wrestling aspect of the show “doesn’t matter at all” because the workrate absolutely DOES matter too, and thankfully that won’t go away anytime soon
> 
> ...


If you think Wrestling is just about the moves in the ring then you're delusional.

Wrestling is the moves, the characters, the feuds, the promos, the whole shebang. 

You cant just have workrate or spotfests as it is in 2020 and nothing else, only the hardcorest smarks get into that shit.


----------



## BlueEyedDevil (Dec 26, 2019)

*In a world of professional wrestling where psychology does not exist one man stands five foot six inches tall...*


----------



## DammitChrist (Apr 3, 2016)

Eva MaRIHyse said:


> If you think Wrestling is just about the moves in the ring then you're delusional.
> 
> Wrestling is the moves, the characters, the feuds, the promos, the whole shebang.
> 
> You cant just have workrate or spotfests as it is in 2020 and nothing else, only the hardcorest smarks get into that shit.


You're delusional if that's ALL you got from that whole post, and also ignorant as well since I *never* denied that the rest of the other aspects mattered too. Knock it off with the strawman argument.

Workrate and spotfests certainly do have their places in professional wrestling. I have no doubt that they'll appeal to outside/casual viewers too since they generally tend to be entertaining. Promos, characters, charisma, segments, storylines, AND wrestling all matter in their own way. I'll also add in the moves mattering too since some of you anti-wrestling folks are so allergic to appreciating them anyway (  ). All of these aspects matter.

Anyway, I'm in the middle of thread-making atm; so I'd rather not waste more time pointing out that the wrestling actually matters too toward anyone who even dares to downplay it.


----------



## WrestlingFlander (Dec 12, 2020)

DammitChrist said:


> You're delusional if that's ALL you got from that whole post, and also ignorant as well since I *never* denied that the rest of the other aspects mattered too. Knock it off with the strawman argument.
> 
> Workrate and spotfests certainly do have their places in professional wrestling. I have no doubt that they'll appeal to outside/casual viewers too since they generally tend to be entertaining. Promos, characters, charisma, segments, storylines, AND wrestling all matter in their own way. I'll also add in the moves mattering too since some of you anti-wrestling folks are so allergic to appreciating them anyway (  ). All of these aspects matter.
> 
> Anyway, I'm in the middle of thread-making atm; so I'd rather not waste more time pointing out that the wrestling actually matters too toward anyone who even dares to downplay it.












We already discussed this, now you’re entering troll territory.

Appreciate what?

How do flips and moves evoke an emotion in me? How does it make me think? How does it inspire thoughtful emotion and critical thinking? As a tv show should?

If Wrestling fans cared about athleticism they would watch gymnastics instead, there would’ve been a boom in the late 90s and early 2000s instead there was a crash TV boom, where the WWF followed the same style... had zero to do with moves and flips.

The biggest merchandise seller of the current era was Enzo Amore, and he absolutely sucked in the ring, yet he was over. Smarks hated it but there was nothing they could do about it.

Workrate doesn’t draw.


----------



## Bubbly (Oct 10, 2019)

He's spot on. I watch so many matches and just completely zone out.


----------



## WrestlingFlander (Dec 12, 2020)

Bubbly said:


> He's spot on. I watch so many matches and just completely zone out.


Ever seen the movie idiocracy? Or Josie and the pussycats?

When did wrestling culture become so easily impressed.

It’s not intellectually bright.
They claim that if you want story and characters watch a movie... despite Professional Wrestling being a specific movie genre you don’t get anywhere else... WHILE they rave about moves and flips which hypocritically and ironically they can watch amateur wrestling and gymnastics that does it 100x better.

There is nothing thought provoking and intelligent about flipping, wrestling moves and no selling, yet they want to come across as intellectually superior.

Especially Meltzer when he gives these matches with zero substance 5 stars, while he rates a match with the biggest story of the 1980’s, that entertained and enthralled people, provoked thoughts, and evoked emotion Negative 4 stars. I wasn’t around back then, but I’ve seen it and can say it is 5 stars, much more for those who lived it.


----------



## DammitChrist (Apr 3, 2016)

WrestlingFlander said:


> We already discussed this, now you’re entering *troll* territory.
> 
> Appreciate what?
> 
> ...


Man, shut the hell up already about your boring anti-wrestling nonsense. None of your ridiculous points are convincing. I already gave you my answer hours ago, and you were already proven wrong about moves "not" evoking an emotional response with the Hiroshi Tanahashi('s Dragon Screw) example.

Anyway, I'm sorry, but does this sound like @RLStern to anybody else here? 

He's also called me a "troll" before on here. Plus, this guy just happened to join here earlier today, and he's suddenly pushing buttons by repeating his redundant arguments about what *HE THINKS *draws due to his hatred over the wrestling aspect.


----------



## Thomazbr (Apr 26, 2009)

What is truly disengenuous is the idea that amateur wrestling is what people are looking for.

You can't actually see someone do a leg drop in amateur wrestling


----------



## tower_ (Nov 19, 2020)

JR is 100% right about the 6 man flip catch move. They do it in every fucking match that has more than two people in it, and it looks corny every fucking time. Maybe if you busted it out once a PPV and maybe one time in between PPVs for a big spot it wouldnt be so bad? 

But it's never going away because Meltzer wont give the match 86 stars unless some buffoon is trying to 86 his career by doing flips, then ironically he will start whining about how hardcore matches are dangerous because power bombing a guy onto sugar is obviously much more dangerous than Rey Fenix landing blind on his face because the 6 guys trying to catch him whiffed. Guess they should use 8 from now on


----------



## Thomazbr (Apr 26, 2009)

La Parka said:


> Surely there can be stories without having intergender matches, guys set on fire and having hardcore matches on every show.


Someone was put through a flaming table once.
People say that you're supposed to save the big spots for when it matters and they did a flame spot literally one time.

You also know it was not a hardcore match every show.


----------



## WrestlingFlander (Dec 12, 2020)

DammitChrist said:


> Man, shut the hell up already about your boring anti-wrestling nonsense. None of your ridiculous points are convincing. I already gave you my answer hours ago, and you were already proven wrong about moves "not" evoking an emotional response with the Hiroshi Tanahashi('s Dragon Screw) example.
> 
> Anyway, I'm sorry, but does this sound like @RLStern to anybody else here?
> 
> He's also called me a "troll" before on here. Plus, this guy just happened to join here earlier today, and he's suddenly pushing buttons by repeating his redundant arguments about what *HE THINKS *draws due to his hatred over the wrestling aspect.


A move does not evoke an emotional response, it’s no different than a jump scare in a horror movie, it’s weak and creatively void.

A good horror movie makes you think, it evokes emotions, it isn’t mere jump scares.

Likewise pro wrestling isn’t move spots, it’s supposed to evoke emotion, make you think, only storyline and characters do that, otherwise it’s no different than a gif that’s forgotten 2 seconds later.


----------



## DammitChrist (Apr 3, 2016)

WrestlingFlander said:


> A move does not evoke an emotional response, it’s no different than a jump scare in a horror movie, it’s weak and creatively void.
> 
> A good horror movie makes you think, it evokes emotions, it isn’t mere jump scares.
> 
> Likewise pro wrestling isn’t move spots, it’s supposed to evoke emotion, make you think, only storyline and characters do that, otherwise it’s no different than a gif that’s forgotten 2 seconds later.


I'm pretty sure crowds popping and/or clapping whenever Tanahashi hits the Dragon Screw counts as successfully evoking emotions out of a group of fans. That's just ONE example too. You're wrong, m8.


----------



## WrestlingFlander (Dec 12, 2020)

DammitChrist said:


> I'm pretty sure crowds popping and/or clapping whenever Tanahashi hits the Dragon Screw counts as successfully evoking emotions out of a group of fans. That's just ONE example too. You're wrong, m8.


That’s not evoking an emotion.

A flip isn’t going to make me sad, or angry, or happy that a character achieved a personal goal.

Oohs and aahs aren’t emotional provocation, that’s called a cheap pop.

Elizabeth reuniting with Savage, Rock winning the WWF title at backlash, Austin getting run over by a car, Kurt Angle attempting to steal Triple H’s wife... THATS emotional provocation, that’s thought provoking, that makes someone think.

If you think cheap pops, oohs and has, basically high spots with golf pops are emotional and thought provoking, that they could offer critical thought, then you’re either lying and therefore trolling me or you don’t know what I mean when I say evoking an emotion.


----------



## DammitChrist (Apr 3, 2016)

WrestlingFlander said:


> That’s not evoking an emotion.
> 
> A flip isn’t going to make me sad, or angry, or happy that a character achieved a personal goal.
> 
> ...


There it is again.

Kazuchika Okada bringing back the Rainmaker to wear down Shingo Takagi in that G1 match a couple of months ago managed to get the NJPW crowd to go electric with that ONE wrestling move. Okada pretty much stopped using that finisher since June, and the Japanese crowd nearly broke their no-chanting/shouting rule the moment he hit the Rainmaker on Shingo. 

Plus, that Shingo/Okada match was an incredible one too, and it's easily a top MOTY-candidate.

That's another example of a wrestling maneuver evoking an emotional crowd response, and making all those fans go ballistic that Okada brought back his classic finisher at the peak of that main-event.

Anyway, your feelings matter very little to me; so quit acting like your emotions relating to wrestling is supposed to be relevant to me.


----------



## WrestlingFlander (Dec 12, 2020)

DammitChrist said:


> There it is again.
> 
> Kazuchika Okada bringing back the Rainmaker to wear down Shingo Takagi in that G1 match a couple of months ago managed to get the NJPW crowd to go electric with that ONE wrestling move. Okada pretty much stopped using that finisher since June, and the Japanese crowd nearly broke their no-chanting/shouting rule the moment he hit the Rainmaker on Shingo.
> 
> ...


I don’t care one iota what works in Japan... or Europe, or Ireland.

We’re talking about North American wrestling, western society and culture, the United States of America.

And in the United States, that style does not work. NJPW, AEW, Modern WWE... modern workrate focused products do not draw in the U.S.

It not only doesn’t draw it drives viewers away. No amount of trolling, baiting, mentioning what works in another country, or repeating yourself is going to change the concrete facts and metrics. It’s been around for years, people simply don’t want that type of product.

The only two modern boom periods in the United States were based on storyline and characters, where the in ring aspect was irrelevant.


----------



## Thomazbr (Apr 26, 2009)

The whole argument is disengeunous

Starting from the idea that it's been 20 years of a "workrate chokehold" over wrestling when we all fucking know WWE only accepted the indy style of wrestling around 2008-9 with CM Punk but it's actually way later after that with Daniel Bryan who truly changed what it means to be a WWE Superstar visually and wrestling speaking. By that point WWE had already fallen by the way side and still very much focused on their own brand of storytelling with John Cena, Randy Orton and Batista on top, i.e NOT what people consider "workrate" guys by any mean. And they only put the coronation on Daniel Bryan after a real fucking struggle with the fans. And after Daniel Bryan who was the guy who they pushed? Roman Reigns. Who is not considered by anyone a "workrate guy" (even though he is pretty good in the ring)

The fact that ROH was able to grow and then slowly being able to be ravaged from three different mainstream promotions it's proof enough that a wrestling-driven promotion can flourish. The fact that that show is still alive is incredible as is. AEW is very much a continuation from PWG.

Then there's the idea that people don't pop and remember wrestling moves. That one is just silly. How many times have you been linked to Shawn Michaels superkicking Shelton from mid air? Possibly the most influential spot of all time in modern day considering how many people superkick.. This is not something only smarks have watched. People have always popped for finishing moves like the Stunner, the People's Elbow or whatever. Wrestling moves pop. They're part of the aesthetic of what it means to be a pro wrestler. That's why when The Rock first begun to break out in hollywood they fucking put the Rock Bottom in his future videogames.

Pro Wrestling is part of the appeal of Pro Wrestling. To say it isn't is fucking absurd. It boards on the nonsensical. The whole discussion started because JR thinks the wrestling nowadays isn't as good as what he enjoys for pro wrestling. In the eyes of the dude that started the discussion the quality of the wrestling matter so much he has to act really unprofessional and shit on his own employee on his podcast.


----------



## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

The Wood said:


> No, you cannot go out there with the ability to engage thousands of people in arenas and millions on TV for years and years. You do not have that physical charisma, guaranteed. Can you throw a working punch? Almost the entire AEW roster can’t. Do you know how to sell? How about how to respond to a crowd?
> 
> Fuck, people really do think this shit is just moves, don’t they?
> 
> Also, a Canadian Destroyer is mostly the other guy.


i think you are splendidly missing the point i am making to explain why i prefer the more modern high paced style

so, i’ll just leave it there


----------



## thorn123 (Oct 10, 2019)

He is correct to a degree ... too many kick outs and wasted finishers ... but I watched a tonne of wrestling in the 80’s, and whilst the characters and in ring storytelling was better, today’s athletic moves are superior. Its natural evolution. And I love a “this is awesome chant”... and y2j has a reverse elbow as a finisher. If it is delivered and sold well, basic moves can still be finishers.


----------



## Geeee (Aug 9, 2010)

That 7-on-7 match is probably gonna be terrible. Brandon Cutler is gonna have to do a lot to prove to me that he is right and JR is wrong.


----------



## The XL 2 (Sep 13, 2016)

Its not just that these guys do too many moves, the moves they do look like shit. The old timers could make a punch or a clothesline look more devastating than the high spots that these guys do


----------



## Shleppy (Jul 6, 2020)

"wrestling is fake"


----------



## WrestlingFlander (Dec 12, 2020)

Shleppy said:


> "wrestling is fake"


That’s not wrestling.

He slapped a reporter for real, because he asked the obvious, wrestling is fake. Slaps in a match are usually kayfabed, unless they want it audible and shoot it, which under that case Wrestling is still fake.

Heath Ledger could ask Christian Bale to really slap him, the movie Dark Knight is still fake.


----------



## Shleppy (Jul 6, 2020)

Yep technically it is fake because the outcome is scripted and all the moves are a work between the two wrestlers, but wrestlers just hate being called fake

If anyone else saw tonight’s excellent UFC 256 main event between Deiveson Figuieredo and Brandon Moreno that is what a real fight is, and the fight was filled with emotion, it even included a kick to the balls and an eye poke, ended in a draw and I can’t wait for the rematch

It’s like these days MMA does pro wrestling better than pro wrestling


----------



## The Raw Smackdown (Jan 8, 2017)

Thomazbr said:


> Someone was put through a flaming table once.
> People say that you're supposed to save the big spots for when it matters and they did a flame spot literally one time.
> 
> You also know it was not a hardcore match every show.


Exactly and as far as Intergender matches....well they had them in spades but they made sense in the universe they created for that show. Plus later in the shows life they started to not do that as much anyways.


----------



## Mercian (Jun 26, 2020)

I have no problem with protected finishers, lots of discussion about no-one kicks out the one winged angel, I dont even like him and Im glad its protected

Whole Jake Roberts matches were often built around wrestlers slipping out the DDT before he hit it because it would be game over

There are some heavily nasty submission moves that we see people tap to in AEW and rightly so, then gets to a special match and someone is resisting it for like 5 minutes just as bad as no selling a super kick or DDT
Any idea how painful an old school move like a spinning toe hold is? There is no flipping about for five minutes resisiting it, damn Angelico's finisher is darnright evil


----------



## Rex Rasslin (Jan 6, 2014)

Flippy vanilla midgets without any ounce of charisma and character work and the inability to cut a fucking passionate promo does not draw any ratings. Especially if they can't even work a match and just do spots after spots. We all know wrestling is scripted but they could at least try to make it look as if it was real and a contest but you can't compare these school gym suckers with real stars from back in the day.

Thank you J.R. for sharing some facts


----------



## The Raw Smackdown (Jan 8, 2017)

Also I don't get the hate for what Culter said. I feel like he was just ribbing?


----------



## JeSeGaN (Jun 5, 2018)

DammitChrist said:


> See, this part was uncalled for, and it wasn’t unnecessary at all.


🤔

.....

You know it's true, though. AEW fans go into a conniption fit as soon as anyone dares to even slightly insult/belittle/make fun of anything regarding their favorite product. And JR publicly making fun of 'em is... well, funny.


----------



## WWFNoMercyExpert (Oct 26, 2020)

Nevermind he got banned lol


----------



## PhenomenalOne11 (Oct 2, 2016)

He's absolutely correct, who cares if he gets heat backstage at AEW, it's not like any of them are big enough to stand up to him anyway.


----------



## the_flock (Nov 23, 2016)

Mike E said:


> I personally like the highly athletic, fast paced matches with lots of high spots. Its very engaging, and you never know where the finish is coming from. Its 2020, wrestling matches are like a choreographed dance routine thats meant for entertainment. We've all known for some time now that they're "fake fighting", its not meant to be taken to seriously. Just enjoy it for what it is, if not no one is forcing you to watch.


People knew it was fake fighting in the 90s, but Austin coming out and smashing 2 cans together drew better than a wrestling clinic from Michaels and Bret. Engaging storyline draw, 20 minute plus bore fests of technical wrestling don't.


----------



## the_flock (Nov 23, 2016)

MarkOfAllMarks said:


> Actually AEW don't have that many "spot monkeys" in general. They actually have a pretty excellent roster, in terms of raw talent. They have a great balance between high flyers and grounded athletes.


Literally 80% of every show is a spot fest.


----------



## WWFNoMercyExpert (Oct 26, 2020)

the_flock said:


> People knew it was fake fighting in the 90s, but Austin coming out and smashing 2 cans together drew better than a wrestling clinic from Michaels and Bret. Engaging storyline draw, 20 minute plus bore fests of technical wrestling don't.


Weren't ratings already cratering by the austin stuff because of the WWF/WWE thing? My eldest sister said she stopped watching because of that and I think a lot of casuals who didnt follow closely did too.
Wrestling is the only hobby I have been in where people cared what was popular and what wasn't, I dont get it.


----------



## Undertaker23RKO (Jun 11, 2011)

Brandon Cutler, the least charismatic wrestler in the history of wrestling, who only has a job because he's friends with EVP's, has the gall to take a shot at a wrestling legend (who is absolutely right) who works in the same promotion as him. What a fucking idiot.


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

DammitChrist said:


> There it is again.
> 
> Kazuchika Okada bringing back the Rainmaker to wear down Shingo Takagi in that G1 match a couple of months ago managed to get the NJPW crowd to go electric with that ONE wrestling move. Okada pretty much stopped using that finisher since June, and the Japanese crowd nearly broke their no-chanting/shouting rule the moment he hit the Rainmaker on Shingo.
> 
> ...


No one cares about that match. I was defending New Japan a while ago, but come on. Stop pretending it is somehow mainstream. It struggles in Japan even with its realistic style.

Building around a move is PSYCHOLOGY. Imagine if Okada had a match where instead of building around the Rainmaker he goes for a big boot he’s never hit before. Modern wrestling.





LifeInCattleClass said:


> i think you are splendidly missing the point i am making to explain why i prefer the more modern high paced style
> 
> so, i’ll just leave it there


I’m not missing your point, I just don’t agree with it because I’m not a toddler.


----------



## JeSeGaN (Jun 5, 2018)

The Wood said:


> No one cares about that match. I was defending New Japan a while ago, but come on. Stop pretending it is somehow mainstream. It struggles in Japan even with its realistic style.


This.

Bringing up Japan stuff always gets a chuckle outta me. No one cares about NJPW or any other Japanese based wrestling promotion. If you like it, fine. But stop saying people give a sh*t about it, 'cause they don't.


----------



## Chan Hung (Dec 28, 2011)

As much as Omega gets heat i will admit, least he protects his finisher and uses it correctly. Only thing though about Omega's move is he doesnt really build up to that finish, he just does it out of nowhere which i dont like. I wish more would use basic psychology. Make it more realistic. I dont mind a few flips, but they need to mean something. If i wanted to spam wrestling moves i could do that with a video game. JR is right about spamming superkicks and spamming a lot of moves that is so repetitive that it does not mean much. Just because generations and times change, does not mean you change the core of protecting some finishers and not overdoing things. Finishing moves need to still mean something. Nobody talks much about finishers today. Think about that. You had Razor's edge, Sharpshooters, Rock Bottom. The build up to getting there was great and when it happened, fans would pop. Today i cant hardly name any new generational moves lol


----------



## Klitschko (May 24, 2020)

This whole argument you guys got going between each other is stupid. If someone doing a move evokes emotion out of @DammitChrist then who the fuck are you to tell him that it doesn't evoke emotion out of people?


----------



## Prosper (Mar 25, 2015)

3venflow said:


> I would like to see wrestling go back to basics a bit more but not a full rollback.
> 
> New Japan does it well and has modernised it's own style in recent years, thanks a lot to Tanahashi changing the ideal of what a main eventer should be like there. New Japan does have some finisher spam, but moreso in the biggest matches. The undercard isn't full of tope con hilos and a crowd of wrestlers waiting to catch someone on the outside.
> 
> ...


You summed up everything I wanted to say perfectly.


----------



## Klitschko (May 24, 2020)

Personally, I wish wrestling would go back to the early 2000's era. Big guys main eventing. Smaller guys fighting for the smaller titles. More of the matches were brawls and more physical instead of guys actively trying to make a 5 star match and get a holy shit reaction out of the crowd. 

Workrate, if defined by how many moves are done in a match sucks In my opinion. I would rather watch a Jinder Mahal match where he acts and wrestles like a proper heel instead of some of these 5 star classics which are defined by how many spots and near falls happened.


----------



## DammitChrist (Apr 3, 2016)

JeSeGaN said:


> This.
> 
> Bringing up Japan stuff always gets a chuckle outta me. No one cares about NJPW or any other Japanese based wrestling promotion. If you like it, fine. But stop saying people give a sh*t about it, 'cause they don't.


You know what's actually worth chuckling about?

The fact that AEW and NJPW officiallly working together for the long-term (by promoting both of their respective top talents against each other to progress some storylines/feuds) would be a BIG deal, which would make your post here age poorly.

For the record, plenty of people would care (deeply) about it. You don't represent the rest of the wrestling fans who do care about this.


----------



## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

The Wood said:


> I’m not missing your point, I just don’t agree with it because I’m not a toddler.


nope, you missed it - you’re talking about ‘worked punches’ and i am talking about what is achievable for the average male to also accomplish physically vs. What is not

don’t worry Woods, you would have disagreed regardless, so no harm no foul


----------



## Klitschko (May 24, 2020)

A move can evoke emotion out of people. Pretty sure a single bodyslam that Hogan gave to Andre evoked a lot of emotion of excitement and happiness from people.


----------



## shandcraig (Mar 23, 2008)

@DammitChrist then who the fuck are you to tell him that it doesn't evoke emotion out of people?
[/QUOTE]
Because people like wrestling shows to see wrestling, not flip flop circus. Entirety valid reasons to talk about it.


----------



## Christopher Near (Jan 16, 2019)

Coming from the voice of the attitude era and someone who put over alot of dumb unrealistic stuff back then lol


----------



## Christopher Near (Jan 16, 2019)

shandcraig said:


> we live in a time when you speak logic you're either grumpy or wrong. We can continue to pretend we live in this fake reality of except what life is really like. we must pretend we're all happy go lucky equal all get along family.
> 
> The innocent with Anna Jay is a perfect example of how fucking stupid all this shit is. Entire internet full of men drooling over this person based off her looks and shes green as fuck. JR makes a mild comment pretty much saying that its an attractive person and acknowledging the main factual reason shes around in the first place. Utter stupidity



Hes not wrong but his job is to put the aew guys over and not bury them like this


----------



## Thomazbr (Apr 26, 2009)

You would have to put a gun to my head to make me pick a potential Jinder match to anything else tbh. Even the worst AEW 16 Men tag
And I say that being someone who came into the Jinder reign with an open heart.


----------



## JerryMark (May 7, 2016)

famicommander said:


> Gold Medal winning vaults:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


you mean the sport only judged on difficultly of the move? we're talking about pro wrestling.

a good example would be action movies. look at the early die hard movies 1-3 and then look at the unrecognizable "what even is this mess" that 4 and 5 were.


----------



## validreasoning (Jul 4, 2012)

I would have more sympathy for Ross if he wasn't head of creative during a period where finishing moves became basically spots during a match. During Ross's tenure you would need to basically kill maineventer to pin them clean.

Problem is so much TV nowadays it feels like we see same thing over and over but 20 years ago everyone hit each other with chairs to head or stop signs, everyone was kicky punchy. Everyone bladed weekly, outside interference in what seemed like every match.


----------



## The Phantom (Jan 12, 2018)




----------



## Klitschko (May 24, 2020)

Thomazbr said:


> You would have to put a gun to my head to make me pick a potential Jinder match to anything else tbh. Even the worst AEW 16 Men tag
> And I say that being someone who came into the Jinder reign with an open heart.


He had a pretty damn awesome match with AJ on smackdown and a ppv though.


----------



## JerryMark (May 7, 2016)

LifeInCattleClass said:


> good, JR has been needed to be ‘dealt’ with for a little time now
> 
> as @RapShepard said - regardless of views, he’s getting mighty fucking lippy in public
> 
> calling out the refs during a match (last week) also pissed me off - he took me way more out of the match than the ref did - hell, the ref didn’t - only JR did


maybe the money mark should've hired better cronies so he wouldn't have anything to be lippy about?


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

DammitChrist said:


> You know what's actually worth chuckling about?
> 
> The fact that AEW and NJPW officiallly working together for the long-term (by promoting both of their respective top talents against each other to progress some storylines/feuds) would be a BIG deal, which would make your post here age poorly.
> 
> For the record, plenty of people would care (deeply) about it. You don't represent the rest of the wrestling fans who do care about this.


AEW and NJPW aren’t working together. What would be funny is if AEW’s deepest relationship ended up being with TNA.

Even if AEW were forgiven by New Japan, it’s not going to make a lick of mainstream difference. I say that as someone who likes New Japan fine. 



LifeInCattleClass said:


> nope, you missed it - you’re talking about ‘worked punches’ and i am talking about what is achievable for the average male to also accomplish physically vs. What is not
> 
> don’t worry Woods, you would have disagreed regardless, so no harm no foul


Harder to throw a good working punch than do a Canadian Destroyer. You cannot and will never be able to achieve physically, as the average male, what a top level pro-wrestler can do with their physicality.

That’s the whole point. It’s not that hard to flip. Requires way more skill to work.


----------



## CtrlAltDel (Aug 9, 2016)

We went from the “Five Moves of Doom” to “Five Flips from The Top Rope”.


----------



## validreasoning (Jul 4, 2012)

Someone did mention Thatcher but how many watched his fantastic matches recently vs Lorcan and Balor. They were otherworldly imo but that's not the type of pro wrestling wrestern tv fans of modern era wrestling (1984-present) want to see which is great pity.


----------



## shandcraig (Mar 23, 2008)

Christopher Near said:


> Hes not wrong but his job is to put the aew guys over and not bury them like this



I entirely get that but someone needs to say it and they need to listen


----------



## $Dolladrew$ (Jun 15, 2020)

I agree about the setups for the high flying moves to the outside,rarely if ever are they setup in a way that flows with the match,and doesn't leave the guy outside just waiting for atleast 8-15 secs.They need to plan those out better so it doesn't stall the action and come off so staged.

As far as moves like the ddt and supekick becoming just regular moves as evolution of the sport being BS........I completely disagree.

At one point in time the biggest name in wrestling finisher was a legdrop.....which now is standard for even the most unskilled wrestler. The DDT can still be a finisher but mostly modified versions like the lifting and double arm versions.But regular ol DDT iscariot midgrade move used to stun or slow a match generally.The sheer amount of moves used in the business today has led to the overall evolution of wrestlers skillsets.JR is showing his age thinking such midgrade moves should be so protected imo.


----------



## shadow_spinner (Dec 6, 2019)

Would a head coach or even a sports team employee go on podcast or interview and bash any of the players? Everything is done in private and only times we get some news in the media is if it gets leaked. JR should be doing this in private, not throwing the guys under the bus. JR is the same guy who went he gets criticized for saying something inappropriate he doubles down saying "why can't people take a joke". Once JR himself learns to accept criticism, then maybe others will follow.


----------



## wrasslin_casual (May 28, 2020)

JR, when he is pro AEW is the darling of the IWIs (internet wrestling idiots) and when he is honest all yall backtrack boyos!


----------



## Wolf Mark (Jun 5, 2020)

Holly crap this has 13 pages. And yep he is completely right. That's not evolution. I think spot matches are just bad. I was watching the new NWA show "Shockwave" the other day between Thunder Rosa and another wrestler. Long match, no spots, it was organic, it was good, the ladies were taking their time and I was never bored. Yet every AEW matches feel so long and becomes unbeatable but now I know why, it's cause it's long spot matches. Like a roller derby. So it's not that they are long that bothers me - I mean I will watch a good wrestling match - it's that it has no psychology.

Picture somebody who is late for work and has to run at this job. When he gets there that person is exausted as Hell and then he starts his manual work and he has to do it quickly but he has had time to calm down and his mind is not in it but he is doing it full speed and it's all over the place. That's how most AEW matches feels like. They also don't bother enough with the realism. Which is important at making you believe in what is happening.



LifeInCattleClass said:


> I have zero interest in watching guys do shit i can do myself
> 
> these guys are ”superheroes” to me, give me flashy moves, finisher spams and glorious power moves and tell a captivating story along the way
> 
> ...


Comic-book characters in movies have top professional writers giving them great dialogue, writing them great storyarcs and giving them depth. Which no wrestling companies, certainly not AEW have.

Captain America is not doing things for show, he has a goal to defeat the bad guys. Flipping outside the ring is something a character like Cap would never do cause it's just showing off. All his moves are calculated.


----------



## Wolf Mark (Jun 5, 2020)

RapShepard said:


> I mean I respect it, real interviews are certainly fun to read. I'm just saying what I'd do if if I'm Tony. As far as JR does he find it worth it to piss off his thin skinned co-workers.


I vote for him to keep at it until they get pissed off enough that they actually listen to him. I would love to see all these same wrestlers being given a tournament where they could do no moves at all, no impact moves just punches and kicks and suplexes to see if they could do psychology. It would be interesting to watch.


----------



## the_flock (Nov 23, 2016)

shandcraig said:


> I entirely get that but someone needs to say it and they need  to listen


How do you know he hasn't tried to encourage them backstage or offer them constructive advice and it's fallen on deaf ears, so he instead voiced his feelings to the world, in hope that they get the message. 

He has spoken before about how no one listens and they carry on.


----------



## shandcraig (Mar 23, 2008)

the_flock said:


> How do you know he hasn't tried to encourage them backstage or offer them constructive advice and it's fallen on deaf ears, so he instead voiced his feelings to the world, in hope that they get the message.
> 
> He has spoken before about how no one listens and they carry on.


Of course he likely says it back stage


----------



## Wolf Mark (Jun 5, 2020)

Thomazbr said:


> The biggest marvel movie ever made is about the biggest fake fight to end all the fake fights.


But there was a GREAT storyline leading to it. And all the moves in Avengers Endgame mattered. It wasn't just spots. When Scarlet Witch confronted Thanos, she had the character-arc that she saw Thanos kill the love of her life. That is the opposite of no psychology circus acts.


----------



## Thomazbr (Apr 26, 2009)

I just want to say that punches in wrestling fucking suck and have always sucked. Even notorious great punchers like Lawler are disconnected from reality.

Eddie Kingston has the right idea of doing open hand slaps and chops over punches. Him slapping the piss out of Pillman Jr is a personal highlight of Dark.


----------



## El Hammerstone (Jan 11, 2020)

Dax Harwood Addresses Younger Wrestlers Getting Their Feelings Hurt By Veteran Criticism


----------



## JerryMark (May 7, 2016)

Wolf Mark said:


> But there was a GREAT storyline leading to it. And all the moves in Avengers Endgame mattered. It wasn't just spots. When Scarlet Witch confronted Thanos, she had the character-arc that she saw Thanos kill the love of her life. That is the opposite of no psychology circus acts.


also, if anyone could pick up thor's hammer it wouldn't mean anything.

the crowd popped for one hit because it meant something.


----------



## RapShepard (Jun 20, 2014)

Shleppy said:


> Yep technically it is fake because the outcome is scripted and all the moves are a work between the two wrestlers, but wrestlers just hate being called fake
> 
> If anyone else saw tonight’s excellent UFC 256 main event between Deiveson Figuieredo and Brandon Moreno that is what a real fight is, and the fight was filled with emotion, it even included a kick to the balls and an eye poke, ended in a draw and I can’t wait for the rematch
> 
> It’s like these days MMA does pro wrestling better than pro wrestling


The murder if Jacare though


----------



## Shleppy (Jul 6, 2020)

RapShepard said:


> The murder if Jacare though


Brutal


----------



## yeahbaby! (Jan 27, 2014)

TOPE SUICIDA!
TOPE SUICIDA!
TOPE SUICIDA!
TOPE SUICIDA!
TOPE SUICIDA!
TOPE SUICIDA!


----------



## Thomazbr (Apr 26, 2009)

El Hammerstone said:


> Dax Harwood Addresses Younger Wrestlers Getting Their Feelings Hurt By Veteran Criticism


I mean it's real easy for Dax Hardwood to say that considering their whole act is pandering to them.
I mean he is right, but honestly that comes a little disengenuous. Or maybe that's not the right word. It's like a tribute band defending the original band.


----------



## Bubbly (Oct 10, 2019)

qntntgood said:


> Dose anyone had the hour by hour numbers, for last week's show. because I'm sure young bucks match might turned some people away,because it you have see one young bucks match you've see them all.


The most ironic thing here is that the YB's favourite match of all time is Rock vs Hogan at WM 18.


----------



## Wolf Mark (Jun 5, 2020)

Thomazbr said:


> I mean it's real easy for Dax Hardwood to say that considering their whole act is pandering to them.
> I mean he is right, but honestly that comes a little disengenuous. Or maybe that's not the right word. It's like a tribute band defending the original band.


And while I agree with Dax, the guy is already drinking the old school kool-aid.


----------



## Wolf Mark (Jun 5, 2020)

Thomazbr said:


> I just want to say that punches in wrestling fucking suck and have always sucked. Even notorious great punchers like Lawler are disconnected from reality.
> 
> Eddie Kingston has the right idea of doing open hand slaps and chops over punches. Him slapping the piss out of Pillman Jr is a personal highlight of Dark.


I disagree. I think punches suck now because guys cannot do it. So they do all these lame forearm strikes. But give me Bret Hart and Scott Hall punches. It felt more like real fights.


----------



## RapShepard (Jun 20, 2014)

Shleppy said:


> Brutal


Wasn't it. If any moment needs the simpsons he's already dead gif lol


----------



## One Shed (Jan 7, 2014)

RapShepard said:


> Wasn't it. If any moment needs the simpsons he's already dead gif lol


Looks like something out of that UFC 4 match with Joe Son just getting punched in the dick multiple times


----------



## RapShepard (Jun 20, 2014)

Two Sheds said:


> Looks like something out of that UFC 4 match with Joe Son just getting punched in the dick multiple times


Yeah that's a classic too, crazy it didn't put him out lol


----------



## One Shed (Jan 7, 2014)

RapShepard said:


> Yeah that's a classic too, crazy it didn't put him out lol


Well...considering where he is now it likely comes in handy.


----------



## RapShepard (Jun 20, 2014)

Two Sheds said:


> Well...considering where he is now it likely comes in handy.


Yeah couldn't have happened to a nicer guy lol


----------



## Thomazbr (Apr 26, 2009)

Wolf Mark said:


> I disagree. I think punches suck now because guys cannot do it. So they do all these lame forearm strikes. But give me Bret Hart and Scott Hall punches. It felt more like real fights.


I disagree.
You wanna talk about exposing the business, wrestling as a whole going away with the "closed fists are illegal" rule was a huge mistake.

I am from non-wrestling country and The Rock should be arrested for crimes against pro wrestling. The many times I tried to show my friends anything with him, inevitably when they end in the ring, they all laugh at how ridiculous and fake looking his punches are. 

Everyone has either punched, or bring punched or seen someone punched in real life. That and the groin shot are unifyers of humanity. Wrestling, for the most part, has mastered the art of the groin shot but you can just be throwing haymakers and sell the giving of the punch, the taking of the punch and how many punched are thrown in a pro wrestling match and believe for a sec this shit is real.

I don't really rate Al Snow too highly but he is 100% right when it comes to punches.


----------



## Wolf Mark (Jun 5, 2020)

Thomazbr said:


> I disagree.
> You wanna talk about exposing the business, wrestling as a whole going away with the "closed fists are illegal" rule was a huge mistake.
> 
> I am from non-wrestling country and The Rock should be arrested for crimes against pro wrestling. The many times I tried to show my friends anything with him, inevitably when they end in the ring, they all laugh at how ridiculous and fake looking his punches are.
> ...


Closed fists are illegal? who gives a shit? they look good and it's always been done this way. have you just started watching wrestling or what? And I'm not shocked you're from a non-wrestling country. it shows. The greatest wrestlers, the greatest wrestling had close fists. All the greatest this profession has to offer from Rock, Stone Cold, Benoit, Bret, Shawn, Scott Hall, Vader, Ted Dibiase, etc....


----------



## One Shed (Jan 7, 2014)

Wolf Mark said:


> Closed fists are illegal? who gives a shit? they look good and it's always been done this way. have you just started watching wrestling or what? And I'm not shocked you're from a non-wrestling country. it shows. The greatest wrestlers, the greatest wrestling had close fists. All the greatest this profession has to offer from Rock, Stone Cold, Benoit, Bret, Shawn, Scott Hall, Vader, Ted Dibiase, etc....


Imagine Rick Knox trying to referee close fists let alone anything more common.


----------



## HawkyAEW (Dec 7, 2020)

Wolf Mark said:


> Closed fists are illegal? who gives a shit? they look good and it's always been done this way. have you just started watching wrestling or what? And I'm not shocked you're from a non-wrestling country. it shows. The greatest wrestlers, the greatest wrestling had close fists. All the greatest this profession has to offer from Rock, Stone Cold, Benoit, Bret, Shawn, Scott Hall, Vader, Ted Dibiase, etc....


I hate closed fists yes wrestling is theature when wrestling is done right you feel emersed in the match an for a second you think its real but when someone lands 10 closed fist punches to the forhead and and theirs no blood no bruising and a guy doesn't sell his hand that completely loses it for me more than anything


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

JR should quit and go to The Rock’s promotion next May.


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

Holy shit! Brandon Cutler deserves to be fucking fired. And no doubt the Bucks have taken issue with JR’s comments. Cutler ain’t saying that shit on his own.

Fuck all three of them.


----------



## EmbassyForever (Dec 29, 2011)

Cutler is a goof.



The Wood said:


> JR should quit and go to *The Rock’s promotion* next May.


Huh?


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

At least JR’s outburst was on his podcast, which he is still allowed to do. I can understand why AEW wouldn’t be _happy_ about it, and truth of the statement aside, I can see how this would be considered to be out of company line. But JR should be listened to. 



EmbassyForever said:


> Cutler is a goof.
> 
> 
> Huh?


Just a little joke I’m having to myself. One of my crazy predictions for 2021 is that The Rock will start up his own wrestling promotion to add to his portfolio. I have no evidence for this — purely my speculation.


----------



## Eva MaRIHyse (Jun 20, 2014)

DammitChrist said:


> You're delusional if that's ALL you got from that whole post, and also ignorant as well since I *never* denied that the rest of the other aspects mattered too. Knock it off with the strawman argument.
> 
> Workrate and spotfests certainly do have their places in professional wrestling. I have no doubt that they'll appeal to outside/casual viewers too since they generally tend to be entertaining. Promos, characters, charisma, segments, storylines, AND wrestling all matter in their own way. I'll also add in the moves mattering too since some of you anti-wrestling folks are so allergic to appreciating them anyway (  ). All of these aspects matter.
> 
> Anyway, I'm in the middle of thread-making atm; so I'd rather not waste more time pointing out that the wrestling actually matters too toward anyone who even dares to downplay it.


Yet every single time anyone sings the virtues of storytelling, promos, characters, etc you swoop in to go on about how important the in ring action is.


----------



## Thomazbr (Apr 26, 2009)

Wolf Mark said:


> Closed fists are illegal? who gives a shit? they look good and it's always been done this way. have you just started watching wrestling or what? And I'm not shocked you're from a non-wrestling country. it shows. The greatest wrestlers, the greatest wrestling had close fists. All the greatest this profession has to offer from Rock, Stone Cold, Benoit, Bret, Shawn, Scott Hall, Vader, Ted Dibiase, etc....


They don't look good that's the problem.
Are you telling me Stone Cold can takedown someone and then pummel them with multiple clean "punches"(it's more like lovetaps) to the head and not leave a blemish, or KO the guy on the spot or injure his hand or whatever? 

Closed fists were illegal that's why shit like the European uppercut exists. But then wrestlers in their supreme arrogance thought their punches were good and ignored the rules. And when Hogan or The Rock say a thing who are you to say no to them even when they are wrong.

I wonder if there is any old wrestler who looked at say The Rock using his dog shit punches as a transitional spot and thought "these young kids are exposing the business".


----------



## TripleG (Dec 8, 2004)

He's harsh, but he's not wrong. 

The dogpile spots in multi man matches drive me up the wall and bring matches to a screeching halt to me. Everything stops just to set up these convoluted scenarios where one person dives onto a growing group of people just standing outside the ring.


----------



## validreasoning (Jul 4, 2012)

La Parka said:


> There's nothing flashy about modern day wrestling.
> 
> Shitty punches and shitty dives are not flashy. They show lack of talent on the people participating in them because they miss the entire point of wrestling, which is to perform a realistic and entertaining fight that allows the crowd to suspend their belief.


I don't think modern (84-present) US tv wrestling has ever been about providing realism. Even as young kids we knew this stuff wasn't real. It's been about providing entertainment and "highlight moments"

I will say though certainly in some instances the past 25 years the business has moved away from in-ring grappling to stuff like baseball bats, dives off cages, chairshots to head, overuse of weapons, dives to outside etc.

I think the top guys 20 years ago have to take some blame here too. Fans were programmed to expect crazy shit to happen every match and the people that followed the Monday night war era talent are obviously handicapped with what they go do compared to back then so they try other ways to "entertain" or get promoters to focus on them.


----------



## WWFNoMercyExpert (Oct 26, 2020)

Wolf Mark said:


> *Comic-book characters have top professional writers giving them great dialogue, writing them great storyarcs and giving them depth*. Which no wrestling companies, certainly not AEW have.


I disagree, comic books are the professional wrestling of print media, they have their appeal, their place and their audience but they certainly don't have any of those things, especially capes. 
And I agree, by the way, the new NWA has been pretty good.


----------



## VIP86 (Oct 10, 2019)

by the end of the 80s: PRO wrestling had 33 million viewers watching it on TV
but now: even the biggest wrestling promotion on the planet struggles to reach 2 million viewers
NUMBERS DON'T LIE
fanboys today are trying so hard to present their personal preferences as the fact and the measurement
old school wrestling that had psychology and made sense, appealed to millions and millions of people from all ages
PRO wrestling was created to simulate a legitimate fighting sport, a realistic struggle
believable storylines and feuds and promos were add to that to make the viewers more interested in these athletes
PRO wrestling was NEVER meant to look like gymnastics
and was NEVER meant to Evolve to look like gymnastics
modern wrestling fans are NOT professional wrestling fans
they are just fans of gymnastics routines falsely presented as professional wrestling
if you want to watch flipy monkeys, then go watch a kung fu movie


----------



## Thomazbr (Apr 26, 2009)

Wrestling being in high spots era is a relatively new phenomenon though.
The way you're sayingg it's like the Young Bucks have been on top of the business for 20 years when AEW just completed it's first year now.
Are saying John Cena or Randy Orton is a spot monkey?


----------



## Pentagon Senior (Nov 16, 2019)

VIP86 said:


> by the end of the 80s: PRO wrestling had 33 million viewers watching it on TV
> but now: even the biggest wrestling promotion on the planet struggles to reach 2 million viewers
> NUMBERS DON'T LIE
> fanboys today are trying so hard to present their personal preferences as the fact and the measurement
> ...


Aren't you the one presenting your opinion as fact here? 

"If you want to watch flippy monkeys then go watch a kung fu movie"

If AEW is putting on a product that some folks enjoy why should that be a problem for them over say the folks who don't enjoy the show?


----------



## zaz102 (Jul 26, 2011)

VIP86 said:


> by the end of the 80s: PRO wrestling had 33 million viewers watching it on TV
> but now: even the biggest wrestling promotion on the planet struggles to reach 2 million viewers
> NUMBERS DON'T LIE
> fanboys today are trying so hard to present their personal preferences as the fact and the measurement
> ...


The full saying is "Numbers don't lie, but liars use numbers". Clearly the landscape is different than it was in the 1980s.

Per this linked trend (compares top show vs. World Series), the top show was getting a rating of approximately of 35 in the 80s and now 12.









Those Disastrous World Series TV Ratings


The World Series ratings were bad relative to those produced over the last couple years. A look at the numbers reveals why it all makes sense.




blogs.fangraphs.com





Somehow with a much lower rating WWE landed a $1B deal and I believe is making more money than ever.

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


----------



## VIP86 (Oct 10, 2019)

Pentagon Senior said:


> Aren't you the one presenting your opinion as fact here?
> 
> "If you want to watch flippy monkeys then go watch a kung fu movie"
> 
> If AEW is putting on a product that some folks enjoy why should that be a problem for them over say the folks who don't enjoy the show?


because it is a fact supported by countless PRO wrestling legends and by the declining popularity

i don't care what people watch or enjoy
but i do care when people try to present their personal preferences as the ultimate fact


----------



## Thomazbr (Apr 26, 2009)

Can we stop talking as if spotfests were on top of the card for the last 20 years?
If you don't like spotfests that's all fine and dandy but the way people have been talking about it's like the Young Bucks style of wrestling, if you will, has single handedly killed wrestling.

Like it's people spamming canadian destroyers on the indies fault that RAW ratings have been on a steady decline.


----------



## VIP86 (Oct 10, 2019)

Thomazbr said:


> Can we stop talking as if spotfests were on top of the card for the last 20 years?
> If you don't like spotfests that's all fine and dandy but the way people have been talking about it's like the Young Bucks style of wrestling, if you will, has single handedly killed wrestling.
> 
> Like it's people spamming canadian destroyers on the indies fault that RAW ratings have been on a steady decline.


i like the Young Bucks, never said i hated them
but what's not okay is when people say that this is what true pro wrestling supposed to be all the time
Young Bucks style shouldn't be the dominant on any show
it should just be the break from the more serious pro wrestling


----------



## VIP86 (Oct 10, 2019)

zaz102 said:


> The full saying is "Numbers don't lie, but liars use numbers". Clearly the landscape is different than it was in the 1980s.
> 
> Per this linked trend (compares top show vs. World Series), the top show was getting a rating of approximately of 35 in the 80s and now 12.
> 
> ...


WWE deal is a bad example to make, it's not an indication on the quality of the product
WWE is producing a year round show with hundreds of hours of TV
networks are desperate for easy contents like this
plus $1B for 5 years is a bargain for FOX, especially with how much money is being spent on TV and movies these days


----------



## Pentagon Senior (Nov 16, 2019)

VIP86 said:


> because it is a fact supported by countless PRO wrestling legends and by the declining popularity
> 
> i don't care what people watch or enjoy
> but i do care when people try to present their personal preferences as the ultimate fact


Still sounds like you're telling others how you want wrestling to be. Even 'legends' don't have some authority, it's an opinion from them too at the end of the day. 

Many sports and other forms of entertainment have drastically changed in the last few decades. Football/soccer is just one example. Some legends of soccer would call the changes a disgrace and say 'it's not like the old days' whilst others (including those more recently involved) might see the changes as beneficial. 

I agree with some complaints of those who prefer traditional pro wrestling but disagree with others. But to have some elitist view that only yours or their opinion matters and AEW should change to suit - seems a bit ridiculous. There are other wrestling promotions out there and some will be better suited to those people.


----------



## validreasoning (Jul 4, 2012)

VIP86 said:


> by the end of the 80s: PRO wrestling had 33 million viewers watching it on TV
> but now: even the biggest wrestling promotion on the planet struggles to reach 2 million viewers
> NUMBERS DON'T LIE


There wasn't 33 million watching weekly though. You reference one show on NBC prime timeslot where tens of millions would normally watch stuff like SNL.

WWF was very popular in 1987-89 but let's not overstate fact.

I mean 18 million watched Big Daddy and Giant Haystacks on ITV (second biggest channel in UK) in 1989. That's 1/3rd of entire population or equivalent to 100 million Americans watching a pro wrestling match. Daddy was a national icon in the UK, much bigger star in people's eyes than Hogan, Austin or Rock ever were to average American but yet by 1987 UK wrestling was off tv altogether and pro wrestling would be reduced to ultra niche past-time forgotten by most. It didn't die out because everyone started flipping.



> fanboys today are trying so hard to present their personal preferences as the fact and the measurement


People like what they like. Not up to you or me to say anyone is right or wrong. I hated "this is your life" back in 99 yet many hardcores will tell you that's the highlight of Monday night raw era.



> old school wrestling that had psychology and made sense, appealed to millions and millions of people from all ages


What is psychology. Explain it..

I really hope you aren't attempting to classify the cartoon world of late 1980s WWF as "old school". Please don't tell me you are doing that 



> PRO wrestling was created to simulate a legitimate fighting sport, a realistic struggle believable storylines and feuds and promos were add to that to make the viewers more interested in these athletes


I wasn't around 130 years so I dunno why it was created. I know one thing for sure it's evolved well past the date of Farmer Burns, Frank Gotch and George Hackenschmidt



> PRO wrestling was NEVER meant to look like gymnastics
> and was NEVER meant to Evolve to look like gymnastics
> modern wrestling fans are NOT professional wrestling fans
> they are just fans of gymnastics routines falsely presented as professional wrestling
> if you want to watch flipy monkeys, then go watch a kung fu movie


That horse you are on is a little high you might fall off lol.

Btw don't think there wasn't dozens of people in 1980s and late 90s saying exactly the same thing about pro wrestling then. I mean just compare the audiences ringside for pro wrestling in late 70s and late 80s. The older adults that attended pro wrestling were replaced by kids and families, those older fans stopped watching forever.


----------



## VIP86 (Oct 10, 2019)

Pentagon Senior said:


> Still sounds like you're telling others how you want wrestling to be. Even 'legends' don't have some authority, it's an opinion from them too at the end of the day.
> 
> Many sports and other forms of entertainment have drastically changed in the last few decades. Football/soccer is just one example. Some legends of soccer would call the changes a disgrace and say 'it's not like the old days' whilst others (including those more recently involved) might see the changes as beneficial.
> 
> I agree with some complaints of those who prefer traditional pro wrestling but disagree with others. But to have some elitist view that only yours or their opinion matters and AEW should change to suit - seems a bit ridiculous. There are other wrestling promotions out there and some will be better suited to those people.


when PRO wrestling fans say they want a traditional PRO wrestling with believable stories, what does the fanboys say ?
i'll tell you what they say
they say if you want stories go watch movies
what gives them the right to say that?

Football/soccer (real sports) never changed ridiculously like PRO wrestling did
when was the last time you watched a Football player dancing or singing or doing gymnastics in the middle of a game
the games stayed the same during the years with only minor changes in the rules

and yes legends DO have authority, since they were the reason why idiots like Brandon Cutler are making money today
without them we wouldn't have PRO wrestling today


----------



## Pentagon Senior (Nov 16, 2019)

VIP86 said:


> when PRO wrestling fans say they want a traditional PRO wrestling with believable stories, what does the fanboys say ?
> i'll tell you what they say
> they say if you want stories go watch movies
> what gives them the right to say that?
> ...


Don't know which 'fanboys' you're talking about but it seems you're doing the same, as you said if people want flipping they should watch something else. If they enjoy AEW then why would they look elsewhere? You are the one wanting the product to change to suit your taste. 

Soccer is way, way less physical now than it was in the 70s/80s or even 90's. It's had a big impact on the game. Some traditionalists moan about it being 'not like the old days' other say 'it's about time' the sport evolved. It's all just opinion - nobody has a monopoly over opinion.

Personally, I think it makes sense that moves get more complex and convoluted the more aware viewers have gotten that it's not real fighting. The way people view wrestling has changed so much it would be weird had it not evolved in some way. But then I appreciate the opposite view too. That's why we are lucky to have a range of products in 2020 for those who prefer flippy stuff or those who prefer seeing one wrestler put another wrestler in a choke hold for a minute or two. People can 'go watch' the product that suits them best.


----------



## WWFNoMercyExpert (Oct 26, 2020)

VIP86 said:


> Football/soccer (real sports) never changed ridiculously like PRO wrestling did
> when was the last time you watched a Football player dancing or singing or doing gymnastics in the middle of a game
> the games stayed the same during the years with only minor changes in the rules


The actual matches and rules are kind of similar, but the biggest one a lot of people debate is the feeling that the amount of money spent these days has changed a lot about it and that the game lost its soul. Others feel like it improved the quality of things. It is what it is. And yeah, footballers do silly shit like that and it gets mixed reactions.

Reading threads like this makes me wonder if we like certain eras of wrestling and not others is because we were younger then and can see through it now or when we first were able to it and had to adjust to what it really was.


----------



## VIP86 (Oct 10, 2019)

validreasoning said:


> There wasn't 33 million watching weekly though. You reference one show on NBC prime timeslot where tens of millions would normally watch stuff like SNL.
> 
> WWF was very popular in 1987-89 but let's not overstate fact.
> 
> I mean 18 million watched Big Daddy and Giant Haystacks on ITV (second biggest channel in UK) in 1989. That's 1/3rd of entire population or equivalent to 100 million Americans watching a pro wrestling match. Daddy was a national icon in the UK, much bigger star in people's eyes than Hogan, Austin or Rock ever were to average American but yet by 1987 UK wrestling was off tv altogether and pro wrestling would be reduced to ultra niche past-time forgotten by most. It didn't die out because everyone started flipping.


at which part exactly did you see me saying that it was weekly ?
33 million at its height, did wrestling roday reached this height or even 5 million ?


validreasoning said:


> People like what they like. Not up to you or me to say anyone is right or wrong. I hated "this is your life" back in 99 yet many hardcores will tell you that's the highlight of Monday night raw era.


of course People like what they like, but also people shouldn't present their personal preferences as what's right despite wrestling legends with a sea of experience saying otherwise


validreasoning said:


> What is psychology. Explain it..
> 
> I really hope you aren't attempting to classify the cartoon world of late 1980s WWF as "old school". Please don't tell me you are doing that


simply the psychology of making the situation look like a real life struggle with consequences
i don't see people challenge each other like gymnasts in real life
i think it explains itself


validreasoning said:


> I wasn't around 130 years so I dunno why it was created. I know one thing for sure it's evolved well past the date of Farmer Burns, Frank Gotch and George Hackenschmidt


that's why we have wrestling historians and legends to tell us what it's supposed to be


validreasoning said:


> That horse you are on is a little high you might fall off lol.


not a high horse, but facts and actual observation


----------



## VIP86 (Oct 10, 2019)

Pentagon Senior said:


> Don't know which 'fanboys' you're talking about but it seems you're doing the same, as you said if people want flipping they should watch something else. If they enjoy AEW then why would they look elsewhere? You are the one wanting the product to change to suit your taste.


not pointing out someone specific but it's a general observation that happens all the time

also i'm not doing the same thing at all
there is a difference between stating my personal opinion and using the words of legend with a lot of experience than all of us


----------



## Pentagon Senior (Nov 16, 2019)

VIP86 said:


> of course People like what they like, but also people shouldn't present their personal preferences as what's right despite wrestling legends with a sea of experience saying otherwise
> 
> *Do all 'legends' share the exact same opinions? And do you do this in all walks of life - sports, politics etc - assume the old legends have it right and the current sportsmen and politicians must be wrong by default *
> 
> ...


----------



## VIP86 (Oct 10, 2019)

Pentagon Senior said:


> *Do all 'legends' share the exact same opinions? And do you do this in all walks of life - sports, politics etc - assume the old legends have it right and the current sportsmen and politicians must be wrong by default*


yes, i do actually tend to listen to people with vast past experience in a certain subject
that's just my nature


Pentagon Senior said:


> *Really? Things would never change if that were true. You are allowed mind of your own btw*


Things doesn't need to change if this change was generally for the worst


Pentagon Senior said:


> *It's opinion not fact*


not when it's coming from the people who built the business match by match and event after event


----------



## WWFNoMercyExpert (Oct 26, 2020)

VIP86 said:


> by the end of the 80s: PRO wrestling had 33 million viewers watching it on TV
> but now: even the biggest wrestling promotion on the planet struggles to reach 2 million viewers
> NUMBERS DON'T LIE
> fanboys today are trying so hard to present their personal preferences as the fact and the measurement
> ...


Also, sometimes looking at real combat sports I'm glad it's not like them. I have been wanting to share this here but I didn't know where. Look at this.


----------



## Pentagon Senior (Nov 16, 2019)

VIP86 said:


> yes, i do actually tend to listen to people with vast past experience in a certain subject
> that's just my nature
> 
> Things doesn't need to change if this change was generally for the worst
> ...


So these legends you talk of, they all have the same views? If not, which ones should you listen to and which to ignore? Will you listen to the Young Bucks and OC in 20 years about how the industry should look then, if they turn out to be successful with AEW? 

When it comes to politics and you have two 'legends' of politics disagreeing - which one's opinion will you take as your own? The truth is, you'll likely take the one that validates your own opinion and believe it to be correct. 

Everything you've said is a subjective opinion of your own or some 'legend', being presented as objective fact.


----------



## VIP86 (Oct 10, 2019)

Pentagon Senior said:


> So these legends you talk of, they all have the same views? If not, which ones should you listen to and which to ignore? Will you listen to the Young Bucks and OC in 20 years about how the industry should look then, if they turn out to be successful with AEW?
> 
> When it comes to politics and you have two 'legends' of politics disagreeing - which one's opinion will you take as your own? The truth is, you'll likely take the one that validates your own opinion and believe it to be correct.
> 
> Everything you've said is a subjective opinion of your own or some 'legend', being presented as objective fact.


good question
the answer would be
there is a difference between past legends and future legends
the past legends didn't change the business drastically
they continued the same direction of the people who pioneered this business
a direction that made PRO wrestling extremely popular
but now PRO wrestling popularity is in decline
so it doesn't look good for future legends


----------



## Thomazbr (Apr 26, 2009)

VIP86 said:


> good question
> the answer would be
> there is a difference between past legends and future legends
> the past legends didn't change the business drastically
> ...


That's not true.
Wrestling has changed drastically multiple times through out history.


----------



## VIP86 (Oct 10, 2019)

Thomazbr said:


> That's not true.
> Wrestling has changed drastically multiple times through out history.


not the kind of change that makes it look like a completely different animal
plus there's a difference between a change that makes it more popular
and a change that makes it less popular (the current one)


----------



## Thomazbr (Apr 26, 2009)

It absolutely were changes that made it look like a completely different animal.
Wrestling, like literally all things in life, always had generational conflicts and ideas were left by the wayside when a new generation took me over.
I'm not saying it was a good thing or not, in fact punches should've never been made legal, but this idea that it was a harmonious evolution of the business until somehow this generation ruined everything is really silly.

It's a-historical.


----------



## VIP86 (Oct 10, 2019)

Thomazbr said:


> It absolutely were changes that made it look like a completely different animal.
> Wrestling, like literally all things in life, always had generational conflicts and ideas were left by the wayside when a new generation took me over.
> I'm not saying it was a good thing or not, in fact punches should've never been made legal, but this idea that it was a harmonious evolution of the business until somehow this generation ruined everything is really silly.
> 
> It's a-historical.


this generation didn't ruin everything, this is extremely harsh statement
the decline started more than 20 years ago
one example, D-Generation X
and a lot more also from that era


----------



## WWFNoMercyExpert (Oct 26, 2020)

The actual interview is much more troubling considering the whole "we are doing what we are taught" thing.


----------



## Mister Sinister (Aug 7, 2013)

JR can't be the only one in AEW right now asking themselves weekly, "WTF is happening here?" This is the inmates running the asylum. There is no one with authority to say, "You can't do that. This makes no sense. They just did that two segments ago. Chew gum and you can work catering. Get your man tits in shape. Stop spamming finishers. Cut your hair. Go get that mole removed. Cover up that tattoo."


----------



## 45banshee (Jan 7, 2019)

Jim just trashed 2/3 of the entire wrestling industry cause most of wrestling is now this worldwide


----------



## JerryMark (May 7, 2016)

the dying last few months of wcw they did 2.5M. raw has hit a million less than that in the past few months. smackdown does 2M on NETWORK TV.

i know there's way more to watch now but even if you half november 2000 wcw's ratings the top company's flagship shows are barely outdrawing a promotion on it's last leg.

the numbers are screaming at you.


----------



## VIP86 (Oct 10, 2019)

what should happen is the resignation of all the legends from AEW
they should save their reputation because clearly most of the roster are entitled snowflakes who can't take criticism and are unwilling and unable to learn
if you don't want to listen to a legend like Jim Ross
then you don't deserve the honor of him mentioning your worthless name
Tony Khan is too weak and too much of a fanboy to discipline his roster unfortunately


----------



## The XL 2 (Sep 13, 2016)

Even in the year 2000, they were doing way more moves than in 1980. But they were still telling stories, the spots flowed well and made sense, the shit they did looked good, and most of all, they looked like they were trying to win the match. Nowadays, they just do moves for the sake of doing moves, the spots flow like shit, most of the spots look like shit, even stuff like punches and forearms look like garbage, and they look like they're trying to do acrobatic and cool shit instead of winning the match. They literally look like they're cooperating with each other, it immediately takes you out of any suspension of disbelief. It's terrible.

The work nowadays is truly awful. Compare the guys now to the older guys who did athletic shit, The Bucks are a fraction of the workers that the Rock n Roll Express, the Rockers, The Hardyz, Edge and Christian, etc were and Kenny Omega is a fraction of the worker that Rey Mysterio, Chris Benoit, Dean Malenko, Dynamite Kid, Eddie Guerrero, Shawn Michaels, etc were. But they're hailed as amazing because a 60 year old man and a bunch of so called smart marks said so. I guess they can say that and get away with it because their awful style taking over nationally ran all the normal wrestling fans out of the business.


----------



## Thomazbr (Apr 26, 2009)

No, they didn't.
Shut the fuck up with this idea that spotfests ran out the normal fans. It's wrong. It's false.
AEW has been a thing for a single year. That's essentially the first time someone like Omega or the Bucks appeared to the """normal""" fans. No matter how much you say that spotfests have ran all the normal wrestling fans out of the business, AEW hasn't killed the business in that single fucking year.
That's stupid. The normal fans weren't gone in the last 3 years. This is not a new thing, WWE has been on sharp decline since fucking 2001. The only fans that lasted are the people who are truly into this form of entertainment and like battered wives have continue to watch hoping that WWE got better.


----------



## DammitChrist (Apr 3, 2016)

You’re seriously telling us that fans “aren’t normal” because they strongly support (ACTUAL) great wrestlers like Daniel Bryan, Kazuchika Okada, Kenny Omega, AJ Styles, Hiroshi Tanahashi, Will Ospreay, Hiromu Takahashi, Zack Sabre Jr., Seth Rollins, Tetsuya Naito, Pac, and many more other names?  

For the record, the wrestling and spots aren’t the reason why so many people tuned out of the other promotion over the past decade.

Edit:



Thomazbr said:


> No, they didn't.
> Shut the fuck up with this idea that spotfests ran out the normal fans. It's wrong. It's false.
> AEW has been a thing for a single year. That's essentially the first time someone like Omega or the Bucks appeared to the """normal""" fans. No matter how much you say that spotfests have ran all the normal wrestling fans out of the business, AEW hasn't killed the business in that single fucking year.
> That's stupid. The normal fans weren't gone in the last 3 years. This is not a new thing, WWE has been on sharp decline since fucking 2001. The only fans that lasted are the people who are truly into this form of entertainment and like battered wives have continue to watch hoping that WWE got better.


Man, I’ll never understand why so “wrestling fans” are so opposed to the wrestling. 

It’s usually the anti-smarks too who make these ridiculous claims about the wrestling “not” mattering and about the workrate/spots “luring away” tons of viewers. 

I’m not surprised that many of them are bashing the wrestling aspect (from the modern era at least) due to Jim Ross’s rant here.


----------



## Thomazbr (Apr 26, 2009)

Look I don't give a shit if you don't like the Bucks or Omega or whatever.
I personally think the Bucks have a fucking exhausting match formula. I can't watch more than two Bucks match without my brain shutting down. Jesus, my favorite wrestler is Eddie Kingston who is the extreme opposite of the Young Bucks.

But to say actually drink the own Bucks kool-aid that they, or people like the bucks, have single handely killed the wrestling business and driven away the "normal" wrestling fans is dumb. You think the normal wrestling fan even has any idea who the fuck Meltzer is? or PWG? This shit is shit that only "smarks" care about. The Bucks only appeared NOW to the public mainstream conscience. Whenever they appeared on the NBA game is very likely the first time they were even acknowledged by the zeitgeist. And lemme tell you there's no way they killed the business since then.


----------



## The XL 2 (Sep 13, 2016)

Thomazbr said:


> No, they didn't.
> Shut the fuck up with this idea that spotfests ran out the normal fans. It's wrong. It's false.
> AEW has been a thing for a single year. That's essentially the first time someone like Omega or the Bucks appeared to the """normal""" fans. No matter how much you say that spotfests have ran all the normal wrestling fans out of the business, AEW hasn't killed the business in that single fucking year.
> That's stupid. The normal fans weren't gone in the last 3 years. This is not a new thing, WWE has been on sharp decline since fucking 2001. The only fans that lasted are the people who are truly into this form of entertainment and like battered wives have continue to watch hoping that WWE got better.


It didn't start with AEW, true. WWE has been running this style for a while now and it basically halved their audience since then. But it's not like AEW is doing anything different. WWE has been on a steady decline since 01, but it was marginal from year to year, they fell off a cliff in the last 3-4 years.

The guys now for the most part are shit. They can't work, they can't talk, they look like shit. They're objectively bad to the vast majority and it's why no one watches anymore. Dave Meltzer, smart marks, and moron promoters catering to the former ruined the business. They've been saved by all of this TV and streaming money where anyone who has live original content gets a big deal. Even an irrelevant company like MLW can make a living because of it. Without these bloated deals, these companies would be fucked


----------



## Thomazbr (Apr 26, 2009)

Jesus christ I hope you guys consider Brock Lesnar the antichrist of pro wrestling


----------



## The XL 2 (Sep 13, 2016)

Thomazbr said:


> Look I don't give a shit if you don't like the Bucks or Omega or whatever.
> I personally think the Bucks have a fucking exhausting match formula. I can't watch more than two Bucks match without my brain shutting down. Jesus, my favorite wrestler is Eddie Kingston who is the extreme opposite of the Young Bucks.
> 
> But to say actually drink the own Bucks kool-aid that they, or people like the bucks, have single handely killed the wrestling business and driven away the "normal" wrestling fans is dumb. You think the normal wrestling fan even has any idea who the fuck Meltzer is? or PWG? This shit is shit that only "smarks" care about. The Bucks only appeared NOW to the public mainstream conscience. Whenever they appeared on the NBA game is very likely the first time they were even acknowledged by the zeitgeist. And lemme tell you there's no way they killed the business since then.


Normal fans might not know who Meltzer or the Bucks are, but what they do now is that the wrestling they grew up watching based on star power, physicality, intense personal grudges, larger than life personalities, etc has been replaced by a bunch of marks who look like shit, who literally look like they're cooperating with each other, so they can do cool moves to pop Dave Meltzer and internet fans so they can get a 6 star match.

I never said the Bucks killed the business, although they do AEW no favors long term. It's giving all of these indy guys who look like shit and can't work major spots on national TV that has killed the business in general. A lot of these guys have absolutely no businesses being on national TV, and wouldn't have been 15, 20, 25, hell, even 10 years ago. Just because Daniel Bryan, Samoa Joe, and CM Punk were solid and they came from the indies doesn't mean the rest of them were.


----------



## Thomazbr (Apr 26, 2009)

In the last 4 years these were the WWE Universal Champions.

Kevin Owens
Goldberg twice
Brock Lesnar three times
Roman Reigns twice
Seth Rollins twice
The Fiend twice
Braun Stroman

These are the people on very top of the WWE, the shining stars if you will where all attention is focused onto.
I hope you guys look at Brock Lesnar's combined reign of 688 days and say "this spotmonkey has killed WWE"


----------



## The XL 2 (Sep 13, 2016)

Thomazbr said:


> Jesus christ I hope you guys consider Brock Lesnar the antichrist of pro wrestling


I thought Brock was great when he came back, but a part timer murdering everyone and never showing up was dumb.


Thomazbr said:


> In the last 4 years these were the WWE Universal Champions.
> 
> Kevin Owens
> Goldberg twice
> ...


The ratings actually went up when Goldberg won the belt the first time, but that's besides the point. 

The whole card is built around spot monkeys and vanilla midgets. There are a couple of big guys on top who are charisma vacuums, like Roman who is one of the biggest busts in history. The Fiend is wrestlecrap tier. Rollins is a spot monkey and did terrible as champ. And watch a lot of these matches, even with the bigger guys they've devolved into finisher spamming kickout fests, you saw it with Rollins and the Fiend, Goldberg vs Strowman, etc. They took that terrible formula and had their top guys do it.


----------



## Londonlaw (Sep 16, 2009)

Rip Rogers has weighed in on this.

Yes, he’s from the territory days, but he was a trainer in OVW during the Orton, Cena, Batista, Haas, Benjamin days, plus he had an early hand in teaching Pat McAfee the basics and psychology.

Less refined than I would have put it, but the message is there: listen to a veteran. They may just know what they are talking about.


----------



## VIP86 (Oct 10, 2019)

Londonlaw said:


> Rip Rogers has weighed in on this.
> 
> Yes, he’s from the territory days, but he was a trainer in OVW during the Orton, Cena, Batista, Haas, Benjamin days, plus he had an early hand in teaching Pat McAfee the basics and psychology.
> 
> ...


and it will fall on deaf ears
an entitled snowflake brain is programed to be......well, an entitled snowflake
unfortunately

but some of these wrestlers have no hand in being this way, because unfortunately they were trained this way


----------



## 5 Star Giulia ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ (Apr 21, 2014)

*They're both right about signature moves being used as transitional moves and the stupid ass dives that heels and faces alike are supposed to stand outside and catch while looking like idiots. Instead of being upset, they should learn some wrestling psychology.*


----------



## BlueEyedDevil (Dec 26, 2019)

Jim Cornette is right.
Jim Ross is right.
Jim Cornette is right about Jim Ross being right.


----------



## One Shed (Jan 7, 2014)

Wait, veterans with decades of experience in the top companies in high positions of success know more about how the business works than some school kids who can fill up middle school gyms? I am shocked!


----------



## Buhalovski (Jul 24, 2015)

Jim has been right since the beginning. I saw a lot of people on reddit talking how out of touch JR is or how those things should remain private. Like holy fuck.

If TK was normal that peace of shit Brandon Cutler should've been fired at the moment only for the tweet.


----------



## 5 Star Giulia ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ (Apr 21, 2014)

Tsvetoslava said:


> Jim has been right since the beginning. I saw a lot of people on reddit talking how out of touch JR is or how those things should remain private. Like holy fuck.
> 
> If TK was normal that peace of shit Brandon Cutler should've been fired at the moment only for the tweet.


*Or buried in the tag team match. I never heard of that bum before 30 minutes ago when Brian referenced his tweet.*


----------



## Buhalovski (Jul 24, 2015)

BOSS of Bel-Air said:


> *Or buried in the tag team match. I never heard of that bum before 30 minutes ago when Brian referenced his tweet.*


The All Friends Wrestling thing is not a meme at all. Hes the BTE cameraman and is in the company only because hes lifelong friend with the Bucks. Makes you think.


----------



## thenglishpatriot (Nov 17, 2020)

They are both right and its not just aew its the same in wwe to a lesser extent


----------



## 5 Star Giulia ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ (Apr 21, 2014)

Tsvetoslava said:


> The All Friends Wrestling thing is not a meme at all. Hes the BTE cameraman and is in the company only because hes lifelong friend with the Bucks. Makes you think.


*They should be thanking Jim Cornette for the free promotion, because at this point, there are tens of thousands of people that will tune in to the fuckery just to understand the context in which Jim Cornette is burying them. I was going to skip this week entirely and watch NXT because the card looked stupid and boring, but after hearing how excited Jim was to watch the trainwreck, I will tune in if the NXT women aren't doing anything during the match, just to imagine him going off at the inevitable nonsense that happens in the ring.*


----------



## VIP86 (Oct 10, 2019)

brandon cutler = nondescript piece of white meat 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣


----------



## thisissting (Aug 14, 2018)

This is not an aew thing it's being going on for years in wwe. It is a bit annoying if done all the time. It's fine if done in moderation. I don't like the young bucks style so to some extent I agree. JR has no place saying this though should be put on in reprimand by the Company. Vince would fire him on spot for criticising the company scripting if it was wwe.


----------



## DammitChrist (Apr 3, 2016)

Yea, I don't really see how or what Jim Cornette said here is anything groundbreaking when Jim Ross already pretty much echoed his gripes recently.

Thankfully, the industry isn't going to change their wrestling tactics anytime soon, so they might as well just get over it eventually with their complaints tbh.

By the way, isn't there already an active thread that has a similar topic about Jim Ross's strong criticism?









JR vents about wrestling moves: "That evolution of...


Why is everyone mad at Cutler? He's clearly just ribbing lol. JR is right, though. High spots can have a purpose but if everyone on the same show does it then it's fucking pointless. I want moves to actually mean something. Dose anyone had the hour by hour numbers, for last week's show...




www.wrestlingforum.com





Merge this thread to that discussion since it clearly relates to JR's recent comments.


----------



## 5 Star Giulia ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ (Apr 21, 2014)

thisissting said:


> JR has no place saying this though should be put on in reprimand by the Company. Vince would fire him on spot for criticising the company scripting if it was wwe.


*This isn't remotely true. Currently employed WWE wrestlers criticize writing and scripting in shoot interviews all the time and have done so for the last several years without being fired.*


----------



## thisissting (Aug 14, 2018)

Have you ever heard Michael Cole criticising the wrestling style of wwe? Your lead commentor has no place doing so even if he is a bit senile. Cornette can do it as he has no affiliation to aew and it helps pay his bills.


----------



## $Dolladrew$ (Jun 15, 2020)

BOSS of Bel-Air said:


> *They're both right about signature moves being used as transitional moves and the stupid ass dives that heels and faces alike are supposed to stand outside and catch while looking like idiots. Instead of being upset, they should learn some wrestling psychology.*


Insert old man yelling at clouds


----------



## Jman55 (Nov 21, 2016)

Tsvetoslava said:


> Jim has been right since the beginning. I saw a lot of people on reddit talking how out of touch JR is or how those things should remain private. Like holy fuck.
> 
> If TK was normal that peace of shit Brandon Cutler should've been fired at the moment only for the tweet.


Though JR's point was definitely correct I'd actually agree with the people who say this is definitely something that should have been discussed behind closed doors and if not then at least JR should go on blast when he isn't representing the company he is blasting against. The actual point he was making was pretty true though and Brandon Cutler's response was also unprofessional af and unneeded so he def needs a thorough talking to backstage himself.

Though I'd say about the point JR made it's been true of the wrestling business years before AEW was even an idea in the minds of the Elite and Tony and AEW has just kept the same style going that has been around for years in all the wrestling companies including WWE.

Also I'd say the same of the WWE wrestlers who put the writing on blast for WWE that someone mentioned earlier. Again I'd 100% agree with them but that's the shit you save for after you leave the company when you aren't professionally obligated to them cause otherwise no matter how correct you are you come across unprofessional. Jim Cornette can put AEW on blast as much as he wants whether I agree or not because he has no professional obligations to AEW. JR does have these obligations.


----------



## Bubbly (Oct 10, 2019)

To be honest I really miss the days where I would care for a move. Nowadays I'm so....numb to it? When the Young Bucks did that move on the outside last week - to me that would have been amazing if it was the very end of a huge feud on PPV. Like the final statement to a year long program against FTR. It would become a 'moment' and a reference point to look back on. Instead I'm just like....whatever....because I knew the guy would be up 10 seconds later in the opening match which wasn't even of importance. I find it with Omega matches as well - the matches just go on so long and the great moves become utterly redundant to me because I know the guy will kick out since the match is only 10 minutes long and we will have another 10, 20 or 30 minutes of fancy moves to go through before the finish, by which time I have clocked out emotionally.

There is an audience for it though. I come from the audience of wanting wrestler X to beat wrestler Y, and seeing how it goes down. It feels like many of the current audience watch because they want to see all of the moves and watch a performance, they want to judge the match, give it star ratings etc. They become a critic, almost. I just want to be emotionally involved to the extent that I hope wrestler A smashes wrestler B and that's it.


----------



## thisissting (Aug 14, 2018)

Was it Jim crockett or wcw nwa that banned going to the top rope in the early 90s. That was the other end of the spectrum. I remember watching thinking you have flying Bryan and he isn't allowed to jump off the top rope. What a load of rubbish that was.


----------



## Dr. Middy (Jan 21, 2015)

JR's not wrong when it comes to that spot where you stand and let everybody catch you, is it real stupid, but this isn't something you do publicly, especially for the company you work for. Do it behind closed doors, and I can see why wrestlers would be upset over it then. Plus, his job is to help put the company over, not to publicly criticise it all the time.

Other than that, everybody is overreacting to Culter's tongue and cheek joking post like that suddenly is so bad and he should be fired? Jesus Christ get over yourselves. Meanwhile, everybody still talks about and references Cornette despite plenty of racist remarks, when anybody else who does that shit most likely would have been pushed out and forgotten about. 

This just seems so much like nitpicking and finding reasons to shit on them, when there are plenty of legitimate things to dislike.


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

thisissting said:


> This is not an aew thing it's being going on for years in wwe. It is a bit annoying if done all the time. It's fine if done in moderation. I don't like the young bucks style so to some extent I agree. JR has no place saying this though should be put on in reprimand by the Company. Vince would fire him on spot for criticising the company scripting if it was wwe.


JR makes more money than any of these fucks for a reason. Maybe if they listened to him, they could grow their audience and ask for more money.

Brandon Cutler having the nerve to say anything mocking JR deserves to be fired. That’s some bullshit. Quit doing the stupid, listen to someone who HAS made money in this business, and LEARN.

Imagine doing your job for 40 bucks (likely less than this in Cutler’s case) per shift (ak an appearance), and within 2 years of being a salaried member at your company, you have the goddamn nerve to talk shit to people above you on the totem pole who have made MILLIONS.

What would likely happen to you?


----------



## Cult03 (Oct 31, 2016)

DammitChrist said:


> The outcome of the wrestling matches are actually scripted, but the wrestling itself is not “fake.”
> 
> Try taking most of the bumps that the performers do on a weekly basis, and then tell them how “fake” it is for those wrestlers afterwards.I guarantee that you’d be feeling sore for quite a while.
> 
> Don’t be ignorant


Meanwhile everyone is just skipping past @LifeInCattleClass claiming he can do most of the things wrestlers used to be able to do in the ring like "anyone can do it". Nice to see the double standards apply to almost every topic.

Of course, JR is correct. If everyone is doing the move then it's not special anymore. There's very little originality in wrestling anymore. Why is Omega the only person with a protected finisher? Why doesn't anyone else want to protect their shit? For some reason nothing is important in AEW. JR was probably promised something different, just like the fans were. Imagine knowing what needs to be done and having to hype this stuff knowing it's a parody of what wrestling is. 

As for Brandon Cutler, is he for real? These guys spit on what made them every single week but when these guys speak, jobbers like Cutler need to shut up and fucking listen.


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

The Doctor Middy Experience said:


> JR's not wrong when it comes to that spot where you stand and let everybody catch you, is it real stupid, but this isn't something you do publicly, especially for the company you work for. Do it behind closed doors, and I can see why wrestlers would be upset over it then. Plus, his job is to help put the company over, not to publicly criticise it all the time.
> 
> Other than that, everybody is overreacting to Culter's tongue and cheek joking post like that suddenly is so bad and he should be fired? Jesus Christ get over yourselves. Meanwhile, everybody still talks about and references Cornette despite plenty of racist remarks, when anybody else who does that shit most likely would have been pushed out and forgotten about.
> 
> This just seems so much like nitpicking and finding reasons to shit on them, when there are plenty of legitimate things to dislike.


How many times does he have to repeat himself behind closed doors? He has clearly tried talking to the talent backstage, considering THAT IS WHERE THE DISCUSSION AT HAND TOOK PLACE.

Cutler said that shit with The Bucks’ approval. Fuck them. They finally make some real money in the business and decide to start mocking one of the few who have made millions the world over.


----------



## La Parka (Oct 28, 2008)

Cult03 said:


> Meanwhile everyone is just skipping past @LifeInCattleClass claiming he can do most of the things wrestlers used to be able to do in the ring like "anyone can do it". Nice to see the double standards apply to almost every topic.
> 
> 
> As for Brandon Cutler, is he for real? These guys spit on what made them every single week but when these guys speak, jobbers like Cutler need to shut up and fucking listen.


Is it a surprise that some AEW fans/ wrestlers have no respect for the buisness?


----------



## Dr. Middy (Jan 21, 2015)

bdon said:


> How many times does he have to repeat himself behind closed doors? He has clearly tried talking to the talent backstage, considering THAT IS WHERE THE DISCUSSION AT HAND TOOK PLACE.
> 
> Cutler said that shit with The Bucks’ approval. Fuck them. They finally make some real money in the business and decide to start mocking one of the few who have made millions the world over.


JR ain't the be all end all even if he is right in this situation (I agree with what he said), and just because he's made plenty of money in the business, doesn't mean everybody needs to stand like little soldiers and listen to everything he says.

And even then, how do we know this isn't just a joke on his part over what JR said? Calling for somebody's head over a joke made on a twitter post sounds a bit extreme to me. Other than this we have nothing to go on by JR's own words. I don't see the point in getting this angry over this.


----------



## One Shed (Jan 7, 2014)

I just finally listened to the whole thing. As usual they had some selective editing. As I guessed, it was not a topic HE brought up but was a question asked of him. And he never said they cluster up like "coils" he said they cluster up like quail. Might help to go to the primary source vs reading a click bait article. Obvious the D&D jobber did not bother listening either, just responded to an article. Everything he said was spot on.

He even said at the end "I'm gonna sound like Jim (jumps into impression of Cornette)." I am surprised they left that part out honestly.


----------



## Lorromire (Jun 17, 2014)

Yeah, I haven't seen a single person say Ross is wrong. I've seen people complain about how he said it, that he said it publicly, and that he's not 100% correct, but those are not the same thing.


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

The Doctor Middy Experience said:


> JR ain't the be all end all even if he is right in this situation (I agree with what he said), and just because he's made plenty of money in the business, doesn't mean everybody needs to stand like little soldiers and listen to everything he says.
> 
> And even then, how do we know this isn't just a joke on his part over what JR said? Calling for somebody's head over a joke made on a twitter post sounds a bit extreme to me. Other than this we have nothing to go on by JR's own words. I don't see the point in getting this angry over this.


Yet, you (and these wrestlers) are upset over JR’s words on a podcast.


----------



## Dr. Middy (Jan 21, 2015)

bdon said:


> Yet, you (and these wrestlers) are upset over JR’s words on a podcast.


I just said I agree with what he said. Didn't think that me thinking it shouldn't have been done publicly = upset and angry but whatever floats your boat.


----------



## PushCrymeTyme (May 23, 2019)

BOSS of Bel-Air said:


> *They should be thanking Jim Cornette for the free promotion, because at this point, there are tens of thousands of people that will tune in to the fuckery just to understand the context in which Jim Cornette is burying them. I was going to skip this week entirely and watch NXT because the card looked stupid and boring, but after hearing how excited Jim was to watch the trainwreck, I will tune in if the NXT women aren't doing anything during the match, just to imagine him going off at the inevitable nonsense that happens in the ring.*


meanwhile in nxt

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1335746368632131585


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

The Doctor Middy Experience said:


> I just said I agree with what he said. Didn't think that me thinking it shouldn't have been done publicly = upset and angry but whatever floats your boat.


You literally just defended the wrestlers by saying JR shouldn’t say that stuff on his podcast. If they would listen, and maybe not mock his words, he would be more inclined to put them over on commentary.


----------



## ShiningStar (Jun 20, 2016)

I usually diagree with Cornette on most things,but every time I see someone jump into a bunch of other wrestlers in match I get "old man yells at cloud" brains. It's a big move for the sake of a big move and it's bad psychology the way it's used in most matches. This isn't an AEW complaint this is like in general with most companies. Even the bloody name of the move "suicide dive" should tell you it should be a last resort desperation move not a trope of every match more then 10minutes. And any wrestlers upset about the Ross criticism are thin skinned af,they really wouldn't last long in the NBA or NFL and most other big league sports with the kind of criticism those athletes get from all side weekly.


----------



## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

is it a bad wish to wish for all the Jims the JRs and the haters to just fuck off until the new year? (don't worry, nobody on this board - only fair criticism here)

it would be an amazing change of pace


----------



## PhenomenalOne11 (Oct 2, 2016)

Both Jim's are right, if you're gonna do wrestling, at least do wrestling that draws. Flips don't draw plain and simple. You're in this business to draw in fans, if you can't draw you don't belong.


----------



## WWFNoMercyExpert (Oct 26, 2020)

Tsvetoslava said:


> Jim has been right since the beginning. I saw a lot of people on reddit talking how out of touch JR is or how those things should remain private. Like holy fuck.


Reddit hates old people, especially when they are correct in criticism. It isn't a big surprise.


----------



## 5 Star Giulia ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ (Apr 21, 2014)

LifeInCattleClass said:


> is it a bad wish to wish for all the Jims the JRs and the haters to just fuck off until the new year? (don't worry, nobody on this board - only fair criticism here)
> 
> it would be an amazing change of pace


*I'd rather the blind apologists get dumped in a private echo chamber where they can lie to themselves about everything being perfect in AEW so we don't have to read it.*


----------



## TheDraw (Jun 27, 2019)

bdon said:


> How many times does he have to repeat himself behind closed doors? He has clearly tried talking to the talent backstage, considering THAT IS WHERE THE DISCUSSION AT HAND TOOK PLACE.
> 
> Cutler said that shit with The Bucks’ approval. Fuck them. They finally make some real money in the business and decide to start mocking one of the few who have made millions the world over.


Never liked Cutler. He Strikes me as someone who would be the most obvious case of a friend hire. 

The only thing memorable about him is him having an entrance that's way too dramatic/epic for such a low card jobber.


----------



## WWFNoMercyExpert (Oct 26, 2020)

PushCrymeTyme said:


> meanwhile in nxt
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1335746368632131585


That was a cage match on a PPV and she was desperate to get her team an upper hand after being blocked from entering multiple times and her team being beat bad.
That was a sloppy match yes and NXT is hot and cold but if you think that was comparable to how awful that card sounds or just how sloppy a 14 person tag match will be I don't know what to tell you.


----------



## WWFNoMercyExpert (Oct 26, 2020)

BOSS of Bel-Air said:


> *I'd rather the blind apologists get dumped in a private echo chamber where they can lie to themselves about everything being perfect in AEW so we don't have to read it.*


They have that! It's called FAN.


----------



## DammitChrist (Apr 3, 2016)

BOSS of Bel-Air said:


> *I'd rather the blind apologists get dumped in a private echo chamber where they can lie to themselves about everything being perfect in AEW so we don't have to read it.*


It honestly sounds like blind critics, such as yourself, wanted an echo chamber here on this 2nd thread to whine about the choreographed spots and everyone predictably agreeing with Jim Cornette (since the other Jim Ross discussion thread didn't really have at all due to varying viewpoints ) where they can lie about the wrestling industry 'dying' due to the workrate/wrestling nowadays not being appealing to them. That 'utopia' of yours doesn't sound must-read at all tbh.


----------



## 5 Star Giulia ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ (Apr 21, 2014)

thisissting said:


> Have you ever heard Michael Cole criticising the wrestling style of wwe? Your lead commentor has no place doing so even if he is a bit senile. Cornette can do it as he has no affiliation to aew and it helps pay his bills.


*Booker T has a whole podcast where he criticizes wrestlers. He's routinely brought back for PPV pre-show/post-show and Talking Smack commentary.*



DammitChrist said:


> It honestly sounds like blind critics, such as yourself, wanted an echo chamber here on this 2nd thread to whine about the choreographed spots and everyone predictably agreeing with Jim Cornette (since the other Jim Ross discussion thread didn't really have at all due to varying viewpoints ) where they can lie about the wrestling industry 'dying' due to the workrate/wrestling nowadays not being appealing to them. That 'utopia' of yours doesn't sound must-read at all tbh.


*Yet you're still in my thread after getting your terrible posts constantly ignored. Don't care, didn't ask. *


----------



## HawkyAEW (Dec 7, 2020)

When it comes to the "evolution" of wrestling the outside dives is the one thing i hate. i accept it If done in a tag match where one guy holds the other and lets go before the partner makes contact because is makes sense. The superkick being a finisher is true but it's not out of the realms of possibility that a kick doesn't knock you out but it should be used occasionally as a finish. BUT IT SHOULD BE SOLD if not used as a finisher, The same with the DDT maybe it should be respected not always used as a finisher but used occasionally just so the move gets respected/


----------



## Shleppy (Jul 6, 2020)

JR is right and must be getting really sick of the shit he is seeing each week

He could even be trying to get fired, I think he's given up

Pro Wrestling is dead


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

Shleppy said:


> JR is right and must be getting really sick of the shit he is seeing each week
> 
> He could even be trying to get fired, I think he's given up
> 
> Pro Wrestling is dead


I have a feeling the ratings will take a bit of a hit when JR goes, so unfortunately, they’re hurting their cause. They want him to put them over, despite not listening to his valid criticism, and not seeing that he brings a legitimacy to a low brow show.


----------



## La Parka (Oct 28, 2008)

LifeInCattleClass said:


> is it a bad wish to wish for all the Jims the JRs and the haters to just fuck off until the new year? (don't worry, nobody on this board - only fair criticism here)
> 
> it would be an amazing change of pace


Ahh yes.

Who wants to hear from JR and Cornette?

What does Brandon Cutler have to say about wrestling! Someone will have to find him, maybe check the local dive bar.


----------



## Qudhufo (Jun 25, 2019)

I knew JR was gonna snap one of these days. Fuck modern "wrestling”


----------



## 5 Star Giulia ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ (Apr 21, 2014)

bdon said:


> I have a feeling the ratings will take a bit of a hit when JR goes, so unfortunately, they’re hurting their cause. They want him to put them over, despite not listening to his valid criticism, and not seeing that he brings a legitimacy to a low brow show.


*I'm starting to understand why JR's commentary isn't as great as it used to be, because it's hard to even fake excitement for the dumb shit he has to watch every single week. The blind fanboys want to act like he's senile and he's lost his touch, but he's clearly still all there in the head and is just fed up with the mediocrity. *


----------



## .christopher. (Jan 14, 2014)

Qudhufo said:


> I knew JR was gonna snap one of these days. Fuck modern "wrestling”


We all did, mate.

Thing is, he couldn't even hold it in until he was done with the company. Shits so bad that he needed to start spitting facts pronto.

I bet the dressing room is a nightmare for him. All these goofs making a mockery of his profession.


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

BOSS of Bel-Air said:


> *I'm starting to understand why JR's commentary isn't as great as it used to be, because it's hard to even fake excitement for the dumb shit he has to watch every single week. The blind fanboys want to act like he's senile and he's lost his touch, but he's clearly still all there in the head and is just fed up with the mediocrity. *


Well...he isn’t fully devoid of blame here. He sounds drunk some days as the show is starting, and that can’t be blamed on the kids not listening.


----------



## DammitChrist (Apr 3, 2016)

That honestly wouldn't suit the false narrative of the blind critics claiming that Jim Ross hasn't lost *some of *his touch nowadays on commentary :jericho2



BOSS of Bel-Air said:


> *Yet you're still in my thread after getting your terrible posts constantly ignored. Don't care, didn't ask. *


It's funny how your awful comments/threads over the years still hasn't changed at all. Those mediocre posts of yours warrant my cheeky responses. By all means, stay bitter over the wrestling industry not being suited to your tastes. That's not my problem at all.

By the way, it's ironic that you state this nonsense, but replied to me anyway


----------



## 5 Star Giulia ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ (Apr 21, 2014)

bdon said:


> Well...he isn’t fully devoid of blame here. He sounds drunk some days as the show is starting, and that can’t be blamed on the kids not listening.


*Do you really think he'd be stupid enough to drink before shows considering that he got fired from WWE because Flair was drunk at the WWE 2K panel and he was collateral damage?*


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

BOSS of Bel-Air said:


> *Do you really think he'd be stupid enough to drink before shows considering that he got fired from WWE because Flair was drunk at the WWE 2K panel and he was collateral damage?*


When he thinks (more like “knows”) that Tony Khan isn’t going to fire him? Yeah. He is drunk at some shows. Almost guarantee it.


----------



## 5 Star Giulia ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ (Apr 21, 2014)

bdon said:


> When he thinks (more like “knows”) that Tony Khan isn’t going to fire him? Yeah. He is drunk at some shows. Almost guarantee it.


*Seems more like lack of motivation to me than alcohol.*


----------



## Qudhufo (Jun 25, 2019)

Instead of listening to the advice given by a veteran who was around back when wrestling was at its peak, they get mad. This is why this industry is dying.

Idiotic modern "wrestlers”.


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

BOSS of Bel-Air said:


> *Seems more like lack of motivation to me than alcohol.*


At the beginning of a show?


----------



## WWFNoMercyExpert (Oct 26, 2020)

Everything these days is "dead" or "dying", it seems.


----------



## DammitChrist (Apr 3, 2016)

Qudhufo said:


> Instead of listening to the advice given by a veteran who was around back when wrestling was at its peak, they get mad. This is why this industry is dying.
> 
> Idiotic modern *"wrestlers”*.


We already heard your whiny rant the first time.

What's with the quotation marks?

Those ARE professional wrestlers.

Again, the wrestling industry isn't "dying" at all.

In fact, I guarantee you that multiple wrestling promotions will be around for another decade at least, and your response here would age poorly by then.


----------



## Cult03 (Oct 31, 2016)

bdon said:


> Well...he isn’t fully devoid of blame here. He sounds drunk some days as the show is starting, and that can’t be blamed on the kids not listening.


You're going to feel pretty terrible when you realize it's more than likely an effect of his Bell's Palsy


----------



## Qudhufo (Jun 25, 2019)

DammitChrist said:


> We already heard your whiny rant the first time.
> 
> What's with the quotation marks?
> 
> ...


Yes it’s dying. This is the lowest point in professional wrestling. The most "popular” wrestling show on TV averages around 2.1 mil on FOX.

Stop defending bad wrestling.


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

Cult03 said:


> You're going to feel pretty terrible when you realize it's more than likely an effect of his Bell's Palsy


Bell’s Palsy affects his facial expressions and the natural slurring of words, which is fine and easily overlooked in order for us, the viewing audience, to get more time with the voice of wrestling.

Alcohol is the cause of his extremely slurred speech, sounding half asleep at the beginning of a show, etc.

But he’ll keep accepting the check and drinking, because TK ain’t got the balls tort Jim know what is and isn’t expected of him.


----------



## DammitChrist (Apr 3, 2016)

Qudhufo said:


> Yes it’s dying. This is the lowest point in professional wrestling. The most "popular” wrestling show on TV averages around 2.1 mil on FOX.
> 
> Stop defending bad wrestling.


I'm not "defending 'bad' wrestling." I actually support good/entertaining wrestling.

I'm simply pointing out that the wrestling industry isn't "dying" at all. The business (among multiple wrestling promotions) is going to stick around for at least another decade thankfully.


----------



## Cult03 (Oct 31, 2016)

bdon said:


> Bell’s Palsy affects his facial expressions and the natural slurring of words, which is fine and easily overlooked in order for us, the viewing audience, to get more time with the voice of wrestling.
> 
> Alcohol is the cause of his extremely slurred speech, sounding half asleep at the beginning of a show, etc.
> 
> But he’ll keep accepting the check and drinking, because TK ain’t got the balls tort Jim know what is and isn’t expected of him.


I am going to go ahead and just tell you that you're wrong. Mostly because your accusations are just kinda ridiculous and probably pretty offensive to JR. How can you tell the difference between natural slurring of words and extremely slurred speech? It's not even something I want to discuss actually, but your accusations are pretty shit and there's no proof.


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

Cult03 said:


> I am going to go ahead and just tell you that you're wrong. Mostly because your accusations are just kinda ridiculous and probably pretty offensive to JR. How can you tell the difference between natural slurring of words and extremely slurred speech? It's not even something I want to discuss actually, but your accusations are pretty shit and there's no proof.


And I am going to go ahead and tell you to prove me wrong. I know alcohol problems when I see them. JR is on his shit when he needs to be.

Or does Bell’s Palsy get bored and act up according to the show..?

Had no idea the Bucks and TH2 were so bad even Bell’s Palsy hated it.


----------



## Cult03 (Oct 31, 2016)

bdon said:


> And I am going to go ahead and tell you to prove me wrong. I know alcohol problems when I see them. JR is on his shit when he needs to be.
> 
> Or does Bell’s Palsy get bored and act up according to the show..?


I don't need to prove to you that JR is showing up to work drunk, bdon. That's on you


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

Cult03 said:


> I don't need to prove to you that JR is showing up to work drunk, bdon. That's on you


I don’t need to prove it to you. You’re not Tony Khan. I don’t care if anyone agrees or not. I know when someone is drunk or not.


----------



## WWFNoMercyExpert (Oct 26, 2020)

To play devil's advocate, isn't EVERYTHING getting lower ratings?
Also, listening to the clip, Cutler is obviously joking/being a smart ass, but JC is right about knowing your place in a business like wrestling but that is a bigger issue with how people act these days. (And no, this isn't a "millennials have no accountability" gripe, I am 19), same with the anonymous quote, especially considering it sounds like that person (nor Cutler) didn't actually listen to what JR actually said because the news made him sound more inflammatory than he actually meant.
And the Louisville Cardinals vs Globetrotters metaphor was really good, although for wrestling I would use the same metaphor about the movie Hoosiers, that's why the clear face vs heel thing is important and the tweener stuff AEW wants to push isn't good for the business and to use real combat sports as an example of that,







. In (good) wrestling, DC would've overcome all that and win clean and been over as fuck.
Also, no matter what the Young Bucks sister is into, bringing her up in something like this was in kind of poor taste, public figures are fair game but their relatives aren't and don't deserve to be brought into the spotlight like that.


----------



## La Parka (Oct 28, 2008)

WWFNoMercyExpert said:


> To play devil's advocate, isn't EVERYTHING getting lower ratings?
> Also, listening to the clip, Jay Cutler is obviously joking/being a smart ass, but JC is right about knowing your place in a business like wrestling but that is a bigger issue with how people act these days. .


----------



## WWFNoMercyExpert (Oct 26, 2020)

La Parka said:


> View attachment 94865


Haha, brainfart. But are they really that different? Two guys who don't give a shit about their craft.
The main difference is that one was talented.


----------



## LifeInCattleClass (Dec 21, 2010)

BOSS of Bel-Air said:


> *I'd rather the blind apologists get dumped in a private echo chamber where they can lie to themselves about everything being perfect in AEW so we don't have to read it.*


not on this board though, right?


----------



## Qudhufo (Jun 25, 2019)

DammitChrist said:


> I'm not "defending 'bad' wrestling." I actually support good/entertaining wrestling.
> 
> I'm simply pointing out that the wrestling industry isn't "dying" at all. The business (among multiple wrestling promotions) is going to stick around for at least another decade thankfully.


Small indie promotions may be around, but in terms of mainstream this is the least popular it has been and it’s getting less and less popular each year.


----------



## Wolf Mark (Jun 5, 2020)

WWFNoMercyExpert said:


> I disagree, comic books are the professional wrestling of print media, they have their appeal, their place and their audience but they certainly don't have any of those things, especially capes.
> And I agree, by the way, the new NWA has been pretty good.


Talking about comic-book movies like Avengers


----------



## Wolf Mark (Jun 5, 2020)

Thomazbr said:


> They don't look good that's the problem.
> Are you telling me Stone Cold can takedown someone and then pummel them with multiple clean "punches"(it's more like lovetaps) to the head and not leave a blemish, or KO the guy on the spot or injure his hand or whatever?
> 
> Closed fists were illegal that's why shit like the European uppercut exists. But then wrestlers in their supreme arrogance thought their punches were good and ignored the rules. And when Hogan or The Rock say a thing who are you to say no to them even when they are wrong.
> ...


They do look good. Esp. Bret and Scott Hall. Maybe you need a pair of glasses. I would watch all these Hall of famers over all these current jabronis using slaps and forearms.


----------



## WWFNoMercyExpert (Oct 26, 2020)

Wolf Mark said:


> They do look good. Esp. Bret and Scott Hall. Maybe you need a pair of glasses. I would watch all these Hall of famers over all these current jabronis using slaps and forearms.


Bret's moves are kind of unfair to bring up, the dude was so good at the technical part that it would make most look like shit, technical workers like Hart don't grow on trees


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

Thomazbr said:


> Closed fists were illegal that's why shit like the European uppercut exists. But then wrestlers in their supreme arrogance thought their punches were good and ignored the rules. And when Hogan or The Rock say a thing who are you to say no to them even when they are wrong.


“PsYcHoLoGy”

I agree. Wrestlers are not SUPPOSED to be throwing closed fist punches as part of the work.


----------



## Wolf Mark (Jun 5, 2020)

WWFNoMercyExpert said:


> Bret's moves are kind of unfair to bring up, the dude was so good at the technical part that it would make most look like shit, technical workers like Hart don't grow on trees


Right but I don't remember anybody ever doing it badly. It makes sense that you would punch someone, it's a fight. And I don't remember having thought "hey wait a minute, where is the blood?". You are engaged in the matches, in the storyline and so forth. I mean can you imagine thinking "hey this iron man match between these two is incredible but there is no blood henceforth I'm out of it". Yet the same people who don't like punches have no problem seeing Omega deliver ten knees in the face during a match.

Edit: Thought I would throw this in:
James Ellsworth Got a Title Shot cause Arn liked the way he threw a Punch Anderson

😂

I would love having THIS Arn Anderson in AEW.


----------



## Mercian (Jun 26, 2020)

Not a critique of just AEW but I do like realism, it does help stop people from the outside laughing 

It's not a recent thing , go back to Hogan throwing haymakers and not one sign of a bruise or blood in the WWF or JC hitting someone with a tennis raquet leading to a pin

Im not saying a ten minute headscissors is the way to go but even worse is six people outside a ring waiting to take a dive

Wrestling is basically wearing down an oppeoent leading to a pin or submission but its gone from working down an opponent with technical or power moves to something resembling Tekken or Street fighter
which make no sense in a match because most of the time it looks like blatant over-cooperation by the opponent-And again it looks stupid to an outsider as "Stupid Fake wrestling"

Love so much of the Japanese stuff because it looks like legitemately they are smashing each other up, its suspended my disbelief, it looks like a contest


----------



## DaSlacker (Feb 9, 2020)

Mercian said:


> Not a critique of just AEW but I do like realism, it does help stop people from the outside laughing
> 
> It's not a recent thing , go back to Hogan throwing haymakers and not one sign of a bruise or blood in the WWF or JC hitting someone with a tennis raquet leading to a pin
> 
> ...


Japan definitely does modern pro wrestling better than anywhere, in that you can somehow suspend your disbelief. 

The 1980's seems to when wrestling jumped from a fighting style you could half believe is real to one which is too outlandish to accept. Not so much the moves but the number of times a wrestler got punched and kicked without it causing any damage. MMA put the final nail in the coffin for suspension of disbelief there. Ofcourse, the 1980's boom was also carried by so many cool characters that people forget how unrealistic it was. The 1990's boom was a similar tale, with the added effect of Raw and Nitro being quite addictive. 

Modern wrestling is a trade off nobody has found the answer to. On one hand its too video game esque to increase its audience beyond. On the other hand, would the remaining audience accept the psychological and nuanced approach. This an ADD smart phone world where people zone out and start playing with their phone if a TV show is slow and uneventful.


----------



## CM Buck (Sep 2, 2012)

im merging this and watch it with the snarky comments. You can disagree without being immature


----------



## WWFNoMercyExpert (Oct 26, 2020)

Mercian said:


> Love so much of the Japanese stuff because it looks like legitemately they are smashing each other up, its suspended my disbelief, it looks like a contest


Do other promotions aside from NJPW do that in puro? From the (recent) clips I have seen from AJPW the work didnt look that great


----------



## Kopros_The_Great (Jun 26, 2014)

famicommander said:


> Gold Medal winning vaults:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wrestling is not about accurately landing a flip though, it's about two (or sometimes more) guys trying to bash each other's heads in.

And people wonder why wrestling isn't popular anymore...


----------



## Dr. Middy (Jan 21, 2015)

At this point this forum is mostly a bunch of people constantly gatekeeping what wrestling is supposed to be and spending way too much time criticizing aspects of the current business as a whole instead of trying to find things they like or want to watch.

We can say that the more athletic based styles is what is killing wrestling, based on whatever metrics and data you wanna pull out of a metaphorical hat, but I wonder if it's the fanbase that is driving plenty of people who may be interested in watching away too.


----------



## WWFNoMercyExpert (Oct 26, 2020)

The Doctor Middy Experience said:


> At this point this forum is mostly a bunch of people constantly gatekeeping what wrestling is supposed to be and spending way too much time criticizing aspects of the current business as a whole instead of trying to find things they like or want to watch.
> 
> We can say that the more athletic based styles is what is killing wrestling, based on whatever metrics and data you wanna pull out of a metaphorical hat, but I wonder if it's the fanbase that is driving plenty of people who may be interested in watching away too.


I try to be reasonable but I don’t doubt the IWC doesn't help, especially how it's either 100% positive or negative especially on twitter and other mainstream social media.
I dont mean this as a "ahahah those IWC virgins" I can totally be an dumb dickhead


----------



## 5 Star Giulia ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ (Apr 21, 2014)

*The main thing people mad at JR don't seem to understand is that he's not asking for headlocks, wrist locks, hip tosses and arm drags 24/7. He just wants the high risk moves to make sense in the context of the match, and the high impact moves to be sold as devastating; not a transition to the next absurd sequence.*


----------



## Klitschko (May 24, 2020)

I'm loving all the backtracking and stat manipulating @VIP86 is doing haha.


----------



## Greatsthegreats (Apr 15, 2015)

*"It's all part of the evolution of the business"*

oh look another trotted out quippy slogan to defend crappy business practices and holes in pro wrestling logic


----------



## Thomazbr (Apr 26, 2009)

Wolf Mark said:


> They do look good. Esp. Bret and Scott Hall. Maybe you need a pair of glasses. I would watch all these Hall of famers over all these current jabronis using slaps and forearms.


I don't think it looks good at all.
I appreciate all the shit they do but even their ounch look fake. Even Scott Hall has to do the goofy fake wrestling stomp when he punches someone.
Punches are bad for wrestling. It's the fakest thing they do. It should be used sparingly or none at all.


----------



## Strike Force (Sep 14, 2015)

The Doctor Middy Experience said:


> We can say that the more athletic based styles is what is killing wrestling, based on whatever metrics and data you wanna pull out of a metaphorical hat, but *I wonder if it's the fanbase that is driving plenty of people who may be interested in watching away too.*


Eh, that seems unlikely to me. Never once in my life have my TV viewing habits been dictated by the show's fans. I watch _The Boys_, and I have no idea how its "hardcore" fans felt about this character or that storyline, because I don't care and it doesn't matter. I can't imagine there are many people who would enjoy WWE or AEW but say, "Oh, well, the show's fans are a bunch of whiny neckbeard incel bitches, so I'll just decide to not like the show." That just...that person doesn't exist.


----------



## The XL 2 (Sep 13, 2016)

Jim's commentary isn't great because firstly, he's not excited for the product, and secondly, its impossible to make any sense of what goes on in the show. What story is Jim going to tell if their is no story to tell? Especially with Excalibur autistically screeching the name of every high spot every 3 seconds.


----------



## The XL 2 (Sep 13, 2016)

BOSS of Bel-Air said:


> *The main thing people mad at JR don't seem to understand is that he's not asking for headlocks, wrist locks, hip tosses and arm drags 24/7. He just wants the high risk moves to make sense in the context of the match, and the high impact moves to be sold as devastating; not a transition to the next absurd sequence.*


This. JR had no problems with early 2000s WWE and they were definitely doing more high spots than what Jim was calling in Mid South in the early 80s.


----------



## 5 Star Giulia ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ (Apr 21, 2014)

The XL 2 said:


> This. JR had no problems with early 2000s WWE and they were definitely doing more high spots than what Jim was calling in Mid South in the early 80s.


*Like hello?? I'm starting to wonder what the age demographic on this site is, because outside of STONE COLD, Jim Ross got the most excited when commentating Jeff Hardy, who is literally the high spot God.*


----------



## 5 Star Giulia ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ (Apr 21, 2014)

Strike Force said:


> Eh, that seems unlikely to me. Never once in my life have my TV viewing habits been dictated by the show's fans. I watch _The Boys_, and I have no idea how its "hardcore" fans felt about this character or that storyline, because I don't care and it doesn't matter. I can't imagine there are many people who would enjoy WWE or AEW but say, "Oh, well, the show's fans are a bunch of whiny neckbeard incel bitches, so I'll just decide to not like the show." That just...that person doesn't exist.


*I'm sure there's a cult that would blindly justify Homelander's actions in a similar way to the AEW Fanboys defending all the stupid shit they do. It still wouldn't stop me from watching season 3.*


----------



## One Shed (Jan 7, 2014)

BOSS of Bel-Air said:


> *The main thing people mad at JR don't seem to understand is that he's not asking for headlocks, wrist locks, hip tosses and arm drags 24/7. He just wants the high risk moves to make sense in the context of the match, and the high impact moves to be sold as devastating; not a transition to the next absurd sequence.*


It is funny how often people will go into the black and white thinking of "oh they just want ten minute rest holds" etc like anyone here or anywhere has ever argued for that. It is such a LAZY argument.


----------



## WWFNoMercyExpert (Oct 26, 2020)

Strike Force said:


> Eh, that seems unlikely to me. Never once in my life have my TV viewing habits been dictated by the show's fans. I watch _The Boys_, and I have no idea how its "hardcore" fans felt about this character or that storyline, because I don't care and it doesn't matter. I can't imagine there are many people who would enjoy WWE or AEW but say, "Oh, well, the show's fans are a bunch of whiny neckbeard incel bitches, so I'll just decide to not like the show." That just...that person doesn't exist.


To play devils advocate (?), every show's fanbase is terrible when you look at that sort of stuff because most people just watch on move on with their day, no offense but only weirdoes (and bots if you're CBS) like us go on forums and shit like that before and after it airs.


----------



## Strike Force (Sep 14, 2015)

WWFNoMercyExpert said:


> To play devils advocate (?), every show's fanbase is terrible when you look at that sort of stuff because most people just watch on move on with their day, no offense but only weirdoes (and bots if you're CBS) like us go on forums and shit like that before and after it airs.


Right, but that doesn't matter. Like I said, NO ONE bases their viewing habits on the nature of a given show's fanbase. They just don't.


----------



## wrasslin_casual (May 28, 2020)

Bubbly said:


> The most ironic thing here is that the YB's favourite match of all time is Rock vs Hogan at WM 18.


LOL I'm creasing! Is it really?

I think that match has three moves in total....a Rockbottom, a People's Elbow and HOgan's Legdrop. Everything else is punches, kicks, some stuff on the outside and that's it. Have they learned nothing??


----------



## wrasslin_casual (May 28, 2020)

Btw have you guys heard JR on this or just read the manuscript? I'd recommend listening to it, this is the first time since his time on AEW he has actually sounded passionate about something! No wonder he seems so bored during all those matches.


----------



## WWFNoMercyExpert (Oct 26, 2020)

wrasslin_casual said:


> Btw have you guys heard JR on this or just read the manuscript? I'd recommend listening to it, this is the first time since his time on AEW he has actually sounded passionate about something! No wonder he seems so bored during all those matches.


I also think it was made out to sound harsher then he was being


----------



## VIP86 (Oct 10, 2019)

Klitschko said:


> I'm loving all the backtracking and stat manipulating @VIP86 is doing haha.


nice try
but according to the rules stated by the moderator
baiting is not allowed

you should prove me wrong by pointing out all the backtracking and stat manipulating
point by point
i'm waiting


----------



## DammitChrist (Apr 3, 2016)

Refuter said:


> In other genres no, because the producers are usually smart to not listen to that niche. And if they do listen they go broke or lose sales, like Marvel for example. But like Marvel they are smart enough to know when to stop.
> 
> Professional Wrestling is different, because when the vocal minority hijacks shows, it disrupts the show for the majority of the audience, ESPECIALLY when they listen to them, and in the pro wrestling industry every company is listening to this niche, so yes, they are ruining it for others.
> 
> Most people want storylines and characters, if you deny this you’re lying to yourself, think everyone else is stupid or you’re trolling.


The WRESTLING also matters just as much as those other qualities, @RLStern.

For the record, the loyal wrestling fans aren't 'luring away' the casuals. AEW and WWE should listen to their ( growing/remaining hardcore) audience if they don't want to risk losing them.


----------



## Pentagon Senior (Nov 16, 2019)

Refuter said:


> In other genres no, because the producers are usually smart to not listen to that niche. And if they do listen they go broke or lose sales, like Marvel for example. But like Marvel they are smart enough to know when to stop.
> 
> Professional Wrestling is different, because when the vocal minority hijacks shows, it disrupts the show for the majority of the audience, ESPECIALLY when they listen to them, and in the pro wrestling industry every company is listening to this niche, so yes, they are ruining it for others.
> 
> Most people want storylines and characters, if you deny this you’re lying to yourself, think everyone else is stupid or you’re trolling.


He's back again? Man, you're persistent I'll give you that much 😂


----------



## Bubbly (Oct 10, 2019)

wrasslin_casual said:


> LOL I'm creasing! Is it really?
> 
> I think that match has three moves in total....a Rockbottom, a People's Elbow and HOgan's Legdrop. Everything else is punches, kicks, some stuff on the outside and that's it. Have they learned nothing??


Yeah, Conrad Thompson said it on his Inside The Ropes show with Jim Ross. Cody loves it too.


----------



## JerryMark (May 7, 2016)

wrasslin_casual said:


> LOL I'm creasing! Is it really?
> 
> I think that match has three moves in total....a Rockbottom, a People's Elbow and HOgan's Legdrop. Everything else is punches, kicks, some stuff on the outside and that's it. Have they learned nothing??


austin was 97% punches, kicks, and stomps and had moving losing their minds.


----------



## .christopher. (Jan 14, 2014)

BOSS of Bel-Air said:


> *Like hello?? I'm starting to wonder what the age demographic on this site is, because outside of STONE COLD, Jim Ross got the most excited when commentating Jeff Hardy, who is literally the high spot God.*


Ol' JR was in awe over RVD when the WWF brought him in for the Invasion.

JR can appreciate high flying risk takers when they can work and have their shit makes sense in the context of their gimmicks/story/matches. Problem here is AEWs shit stinks in all regards .


----------



## Bazinga (Apr 2, 2012)

Ya'll know I've been in the business for a long, long time. Travellin' up those roads, drinkin' beer, breakin' hearts, and workin' the F out. All to entertain the people payin' to see somebody other than me. Somebody other than me, and nobody knowin' who the f**k I was.

I ain't a name in this business anybody's gonna know. I worked with a lotta guys. Ain't ever had my name announced, but gave my life to this business, and damn near broke every bone in my body. And that was with me takin' the same 5 bumps every match for years, gettin' squashed and helpin' other cats get ovah. 

Now I see majority o' cats goin' hard for 20+ minutes, hittin' all their spots, sellin' like they're broke, damn near droppin' each other on their heads. And they're only one slip away from damn near killin' somebody.

As somebody who worked hard and smart, didn't injure anybody important, and protected the guys who drew the gates. So now watchin' these kids go balls out for 20+ minutes with no payoff, I g*ddamn love it.

These kids and I got one thing, and one thing only, in common: ain't none of us ever drew a damn dime in this business. But the difference is, I'm sittin' here talkin' to ya on a podcast, sittin' by my 40-by-40 swimmin' pool- Teremana tequilla in one hand, and the finest Cuban cigars money can buy.

Why? 'Cuz I worked smart. Did the jobs, travellin' up those roads, drinkin' beer, breakin' hearts, and workin' the F out. Only had heat with guys that didn't matter. Cashin' my cheques, investin' wisely, and leadin' a comfortable life where nobody knows my damn name.


----------



## Thomazbr (Apr 26, 2009)

Bazinga said:


> Ya'll know I've been in the business for a long, long time. Travellin' up those roads, drinkin' beer, breakin' hearts, and workin' the F out. All to entertain the people payin' to see somebody other than me. Somebody other than me, and nobody knowin' who the f**k I was.
> 
> I ain't a name in this business anybody's gonna know. I worked with a lotta guys. Ain't ever had my name announced, but gave my life to this business, and damn near broke every bone in my body. And that was with me takin' the same 5 bumps every match for years, gettin' squashed and helpin' other cats get ovah.
> 
> ...


Who are you larping here as?
I can read a "Stone Cold on his podcast" here but obviously it's not Stone Cold.


----------



## Brad Boyd (Jan 28, 2020)

.christopher. said:


> Ol' JR was in awe over RVD when the WWF brought him in for the Invasion.
> 
> JR can appreciate high flying risk takers when they can work and have their shit makes sense in the context of their gimmicks/story/matches. Problem here is AEWs shit stinks in all regards .


I've heard people call young bucks Hardy Boys 2.0. I really try to empathize with people and why they form opinions of that nature, but it's hard... People also claim that Young Bucks have a shred of charisma; also a fact that doesnt make much sense. Cheers=Charisma these days to people.


----------



## Wolf Mark (Jun 5, 2020)

Thomazbr said:


> I don't think it looks good at all.
> I appreciate all the shit they do but even their ounch look fake. Even Scott Hall has to do the goofy fake wrestling stomp when he punches someone.
> Punches are bad for wrestling. It's the fakest thing they do. It should be used sparingly or none at all.


If you don't think it looks good, what have you been doing during all these years when the rest of us were enjoying all these great wrestlers? Were you covering your eyes when Benoit was having these brawls on Nitro? lol


----------



## Thomazbr (Apr 26, 2009)

Wolf Mark said:


> If you don't think it looks good, what have you been doing during all these years when the rest of us were enjoying all these great wrestlers? Were you covering your eyes when Benoit was having these brawls on Nitro? lol


Oh sorry.
I forgot their shit is completely flawless and they have done nothing wrong.
My bad

That's really rich, that you complain about suspension of disbelief and here I am saying that wrestling punches are a massive suspension of disbelief and you saying that "nuh-uh, they aren't because legends done then". 
The role of a punch in the classical wrestling sense is a tool for the heat to draw heat because they are clearly breaking the rules and getting an unfair advantage over the babyface and for the babyface to finally after getting angry at the heel cheating and fucking him over multiple times finally has enough and punches the bad guy.
Wrestlers cheapening the punch has not only fucked up the suspension of disbelief because I repeat wrestlers punches are fucking DOGSHIT and one of the fakest things a wrestler can do, it also ruined a perfectly tool to draw both heel heat and babyface heat. It's just another move with no meaning that people do.

Japan still protects their punches somewhat that's why when a babyface clocks someone with a punch it generally gets a huge pop.


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

Bazinga said:


> Ya'll know I've been in the business for a long, long time. Travellin' up those roads, drinkin' beer, breakin' hearts, and workin' the F out. All to entertain the people payin' to see somebody other than me. Somebody other than me, and nobody knowin' who the f**k I was.
> 
> I ain't a name in this business anybody's gonna know. I worked with a lotta guys. Ain't ever had my name announced, but gave my life to this business, and damn near broke every bone in my body. And that was with me takin' the same 5 bumps every match for years, gettin' squashed and helpin' other cats get ovah.
> 
> ...


This is an awesome post.


----------



## DammitChrist (Apr 3, 2016)

Brad Boyd said:


> I've heard people call young bucks Hardy Boys 2.0. I really try to empathize with people and why they form opinions of that nature, but it's hard... People also claim that Young Bucks have a shred of charisma; also a fact that doesnt make much sense. Cheers=Charisma these days to people.


The Young Bucks do possess some charisma, and (positive) crowd reactions/cheers is a good measure of the charisma department.


----------



## Shock Street (Oct 27, 2020)

The Young Bucks said in an interview a couple days ago (in regards to their FTR match having very little build) that the build doesn't matter, and people only remember the match. So uh, yeah this isn't going to change as long as they're EVPs.



DammitChrist said:


> The Young Bucks do possess some charisma, and (positive) crowd reactions/cheers is a good measure of the charisma department.


I feel like the crowd is cheering the spots and not the storytelling but that's just me


----------



## One Shed (Jan 7, 2014)

Shock Street said:


> The Young Bucks said in an interview a couple days ago (in regards to their FTR match having very little build) that the build doesn't matter, and people only remember the match. So uh, yeah this isn't going to change as long as they're EVPs.
> 
> 
> 
> I feel like the crowd is cheering the spots and not the storytelling but that's just me


It is extra hilarious because they just brought in Sting who represents one of the best remembered builds ever that ended in a match everyone tries to forget.

Sure Bucks, no one today remembers Austin vs McMahon the story, we only remember that classic seven star match they had. Oh.


----------



## ceeder (May 10, 2010)

Did I miss something or why was this made a 12 man instead of a 14 man?

Cutler was pulled from the match. Did JR request that or what happened here?


----------



## shandcraig (Mar 23, 2008)

.christopher. said:


> Ol' JR was in awe over RVD when the WWF brought him in for the Invasion.
> 
> JR can appreciate high flying risk takers when they can work and have their shit makes sense in the context of their gimmicks/story/matches. Problem here is AEWs shit stinks in all regards .



RVD is not a flip flopper. He knows ring phycology of a normal match but has a couple spots that are done accordingly and are sold. Its not random flip flop nonsense one after another. Plu his spots are pretty limited compared


----------



## Shock Street (Oct 27, 2020)

Two Sheds said:


> It is extra hilarious because they just brought in Sting who represents one of the best remembered builds ever that ended in a match everyone tries to forget.
> 
> Sure Bucks, no one today remembers Austin vs McMahon the story, we only remember that classic seven star match they had. Oh.


Thinking the story doesn't matter and people only care about the match is insane. What are people even watching the match for in the first place if theres no story?

Honestly, the Young Bucks are a big part of what's wrecking the show. Besides the long spot matches and no builds, they just keep hiring people that remind them of themselves like TH2, Private Party, Top Flight, etc, have one or two matches where they just jump at eachother for 20 minutes, and then drop them like a rock. Remember Private Party getting an upset over the Bucks in the early tag tournament days? I sure do, now they're basically a filler team telling Matt Hardy's story and sometimes winning on Dark.

Fuck them Young Bucks



ceeder said:


> Did I miss something or why was this made a 12 man instead of a 14 man?
> 
> Cutler was pulled from the match. Did JR request that or what happened here?


Wardlow had a family situation and had to drop out. I assume Cutler got removed because the other 6 members were all tag teams so it'd be weird to just drop Griff or one of Top Flight. I doubt Cutlers gonna be punished.


----------



## yeahright2 (Feb 11, 2011)

Brad Boyd said:


> I've heard people call young bucks Hardy Boys 2.0. I really try to empathize with people and why they form opinions of that nature, but it's hard... People also claim that Young Bucks have a shred of charisma; also a fact that doesnt make much sense. Cheers=Charisma these days to people.


They was when they were Generation Me in TNA. They even looked somewhat similar to Matt and Jeff.
But somewhere along the lines, their ego or whatever took over, and they thought they were a bigger deal than they were (as evidenced in their WWE tryout), and started relying on Superkicks and flips just for the sake of it.


----------



## One Shed (Jan 7, 2014)

ceeder said:


> Did I miss something or why was this made a 12 man instead of a 14 man?
> 
> Cutler was pulled from the match. Did JR request that or what happened here?


Wardlow had a family issue and could not make it so Cutlet was removed to balance it.


----------



## 5 Star Giulia ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ (Apr 21, 2014)

yeahright2 said:


> They was when they were Generation Me in TNA. They even looked somewhat similar to Matt and Jeff.
> But somewhere along the lines, their ego or whatever took over, and they thought they were a bigger deal than they were (as evidenced in their WWE tryout), and started relying on Superkicks and flips just for the sake of it.


*They thought they were untouchable after they got noticed in New Japan by the greater wrestling community and WWE tried to sign them at their peak like 5 years ago.*


----------



## Brad Boyd (Jan 28, 2020)

Shock Street said:


> The Young Bucks said in an interview a couple days ago (in regards to their FTR match having very little build) that the build doesn't matter, and people only remember the match. So uh, yeah this isn't going to change as long as they're EVPs.
> 
> 
> 
> I feel like the crowd is cheering the spots and not the storytelling but that's just me


The spots=charisma


DammitChrist said:


> The Young Bucks do possess some charisma, and (positive) crowd reactions/cheers is a good measure of the charisma department.


Interesting. I mean it seems like Apollo Crews never got a pop. Hes a good wrestler and definitely a charisma vacuum. I still dont see how bucks are even slightly charismatic though. These days there isnt a lot of charisma in the business so people gotta find a reason to cheer for someone. Whether its work rate or something they said that was funny backstage.


----------



## .christopher. (Jan 14, 2014)

shandcraig said:


> RVD is not a flip flopper. He knows ring phycology of a normal match but has a couple spots that are done accordingly and are sold. Its not random flip flop nonsense one after another. Plu his spots are pretty limited compared


You have to look at it in context, though.

Nowadays, when you look back at his stuff, it looks standard compared to most high spot stuff now. At the time, it was revolutionary, totally different to a typical well worked match, and JR still loved it.


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## shandcraig (Mar 23, 2008)

.christopher. said:


> You have to look at it in context, though.
> 
> Nowadays, when you look back at his stuff, it looks standard compared to most high spot stuff now. At the time, it was revolutionary, totally different to a typical well worked match, and JR still loved it.


Again the guy understands physiology. No one cares about a few acrobatic moves that were incorporated into aproper sold match.theres a lot of people that find the matches these days nothing like that and entirely sloppy fest with no selling and just spot after spot. You must be missing a lot of whats being complained about today but it is a lot more than one thing.over all presentation from start to finish.


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## 5 Star Giulia ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ (Apr 21, 2014)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1339722256814133250


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## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

BOSS of Bel-Air said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1339722256814133250


Hahahahahaha!


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## Shock Street (Oct 27, 2020)

BOSS of Bel-Air said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1339722256814133250


Man I think luchadores are cool and dinosaurs are cool

So how come Luchasaurus sucks so fuckin bad


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## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

He is so fucking bad. No clue.


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