# Can't take this midget shit seriously!



## Zero G (Nov 7, 2014)

Itami and Balor, two short dudes who look like college geeks completely burying Ascension and standing tall over their beaten bodies? Where is the believability? Pro-wrestling is all about believability. Entire beat down looked so awkward and phony out there, with Konnor and Viktor trying to sell those punches. Maybe this midget shit gets over in Japan(even this is debatable considering the current pathetic state of Jap wrestling scene, and Bob Sapp being a huge star with nothing but his looks) but WWE is not Japan in anyway, its the land of giants. This will only get laughed at, if mainstream american fans ever saw it. 

Its WRESTLING for fuck sake, its a spectacle sport, looks absolutely DOES matter. Why are we even expected to appreciate some average looking dudes, that you can bump into walking down on the streets fight against each other? I don't watch WWE for that, that's not the point of a sport like wrestling. Midgets lack believability because of their size, not their fault and I understand them getting these opportunities on top, but as a fan I'm not willing to sacrifice the fun of watching a spectacle sport like wrestling just so these people can main event. They just don't belong in that spot. 

WWE needs to completely move away from this midgets-standing-tall-in-the-main-event phase and go back to their roots, when wrestling was all about charismatic larger than life figures.

Am I the only one who feels this way?


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## Flashyelbow (Mar 3, 2014)

Troll get out of here man.


Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App


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## Mr. I (Nov 23, 2012)

Yawn.


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## paqman (Sep 7, 2009)

I get your gripe, but WWE just needs a better way of presenting the physicality. 

Titus O'Neil vs Sami Zayn is logic 101. First time, Titus just out powered Zayn at every corner and won. Second time, Titus did the same, but Zayn had to really dig down deep and use his last bit of energy to hit two quick moves and catch him off his game to win the match. That's believable. 

Hideo and Finn beating down The Ascension with ease could be explained by Viktor and Konnor being unprepared, but their actual match will need some better layers to it to make The Ascension believably vulnerable to two guys half their size. Inexperience? Lack of speed? It has to tie into the match and commentary has to be on point about it. 

OP is not a troll, he raises a valid issue. Spider-Man vs The Hulk doesn't make sense unless you explain both of their power sets, either. Neither does Batman vs Superman.


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## Gravenbabies (Jul 17, 2014)

Zero G said:


> Am I the only one who feels this way?


yes.:nowords


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## 5 Star Giulia ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ (Apr 21, 2014)

paqman said:


> I get your gripe, but WWE just needs a better way of presenting the physicality.
> 
> Titus O'Neil vs Sami Zayn is logic 101. First time, Titus just out powered Zayn at every corner and won. Second time, Titus did the same, but Zayn had to really dig down deep and use his last bit of energy to hit two quick moves and catch him off his game to win the match. That's believable.
> 
> ...


*
Agreed, it's all about presentation. Small guys should not dominate the big guys, they should find weaknesses and exploit them, or take them off their feet. Balor and Itami just kicking the Ascension and keeping them down for several minutes is in no way believable. It's actually insulting to our intelligence, especially since these are the two guys who dominated the Tag Team division for so long. It indirectly buries a large portion of the roster by having two new small guys lay them out after the whole Tag Team scene couldn't do it over the course of a year.*


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## NT86 (Nov 23, 2008)

That's for the midgets line. Too many people use that term in wrestling too lightly and it just sounds rude.

Aside from that you've got a point given how dominant The Ascension has been booked.


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## Kloppo (Sep 26, 2014)

blame that idiot Triple H and the failed Performance Center cause didn't created one single star so WWE needs to sign from the indyz. If i want to watch a boring submission match with no storytelling then I would watch ROH or some other bingo hall indy promotion. Shane needs to return and Triple H needs to GTFO ASAP!!!


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## Markus123 (Mar 25, 2014)

'Pro-wrestling is all about believability' :lol since when?! And tbh I can imagine Itami and Balor beating down Ascension, Balor is ripped!


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## Delbert Grady (Feb 2, 2014)

Nothin OP says is wrong. Kenta and Balor will not move the ratings meter when they get called up.

I swear, if some of you were watching years back, you'd of been clamoring for Spanky to go over Batista.


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## x78 (May 23, 2012)

Yeah, it was a really awkward segment. I get that they wanted Balor to come in and make an impact but overpowering Ascension like that was pretty stupid, especially because kayfabe nobody knows who this guy is, it isn't like Kenta who was brought in and hyped up as a Japanese legend and so looked credible fending off Ascension at Takeover 2. 

NXT has been vanilla midget land anyway since Wyatt was called up and especially since the Network launched, I feel like a lot of what happens these days is aimed at appeasing retarded indy fans to attract Network subs. Makes sense from a business POV but hopefully it doesn't transfer to the main roster at any point in the future because this shit is pretty lame TBH.


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## TD Stinger (May 9, 2012)

Bring Back Russo said:


> *
> Agreed, it's all about presentation. Small guys should not dominate the big guys, they should find weaknesses and exploit them, or take them off their feet. Balor and Itami just kicking the Ascension and keeping them down for several minutes is in no way believable. It's actually insulting to our intelligence, especially since these are the two guys who dominated the Tag Team division for so long. It indirectly buries a large portion of the roster by having two new small guys lay them out after the whole Tag Team scene couldn't do it over the course of a year.*


Agree with this. Itami and Balor made the Ascension look like bitches. It was Balor's debut, so obviously they should have been booked to look good. But not THAT good. Get in there. Do a few moves. End it with The Ascension getting knocked out of the ring and high tailing it up the ramp. Not getting laid out with Itami and Balor standing over top of them.


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## Kloppo (Sep 26, 2014)

this was Ascension's farewell to NXT cause they're going to debut on the main roster soon.


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## CenaBoy4Life (Jul 31, 2013)

Nothing matters on NXT really. You guys take it to seriously.


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## THANOS (Jun 20, 2006)

I said this in another thread but it applies here as well.

Balor and Itami steamrolling the Ascension fits the theme of WWE the past few years. Skill always supersedes size (It is/was shown with Bryan and Punk routinely), and the only time size wins is when it's a drastic difference like Big Show vs Bryan (Bryan has never pinned him.. yet), or when the bigger guy has more skill than the smaller guy (any of Brock's matches). Other than that WWE's new theme is skill > size.

Wrestlers are not superheroes, and believability has no basis in a scripted sport, at least when it comes to size. In real life skill always prevails if it's a big lumbering opponent vs a skilled small opponent, and in this case it was just that. The Ascension are powerful brutes with little intelligence behind their attacks, and Balor and Itami are bringing the talent and strategy to put them in their place.


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## x78 (May 23, 2012)

^ That's fine except it isn't what happened, Balor and Itami just charged headfirst into the ring and beat the hell out of them.


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## ozzyanson (Mar 19, 2014)

OP makes a reasonable point. If a smaller guy is going to beat the bigger one, there has to be an angle on it, not just a beatdown. 

They are screwing up with Itami's debut so far. Balor is doing better. The whole Ascension "feud" has managed to devalue both Itami and The Ascension


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## paqman (Sep 7, 2009)

THANOS said:


> I said this in another thread but it applies here as well.
> 
> Balor and Itami steamrolling the Ascension fits the theme of WWE the past few years. Skill always supersedes size (It is/was shown with Bryan and Punk routinely), and the only time size wins is when it's a drastic difference like Big Show vs Bryan (Bryan has never pinned him.. yet), or when the bigger guy has more skill than the smaller guy (any of Brock's matches). Other than that WWE's new theme is skill > size.
> 
> Wrestlers are not superheroes, and believability has no basis in a scripted sport, at least when it comes to size. In real life skill always prevails if it's a big lumbering opponent vs a skilled small opponent, and in this case it was just that. The Ascension are powerful brutes with little intelligence behind their attacks, and Balor and Itami are bringing the talent and strategy to put them in their place.


I agree, but the point of my post was merely saying commentary needs to explain the skill/size difference instead of just assuming the viewer is keenly aware of both of the wrestler's careers. NXT is a bit different, because most of it's fan base are hardcore fans who know Devitt and Kenta's resume, but when they get to the main roster, it's an entirely different beast that will need proper education to the casual fan. 

Because to them, all they see is the size difference. The tale of the tape graphic before bigger matches would help drastically if you see "YEARS PRO" be in favor of the smaller guy. I see this in MMA all the time, and as a casual fan of that sport, it helps me a fuck ton understand what I'm looking at here. Granted, MMA typically doesn't mix and match weight classes, so in pro wrestling, it's doubly important.

So it just goes back to the presentation of the match in question and the story told in the ring and from the announce booth.


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## Oxidamus (Jan 30, 2012)

Delbert Grady said:


> Nothin OP says is wrong. Kenta and Balor will not move the ratings meter when they get called up.
> 
> I swear, if some of you were watching years back, you'd of been clamoring for Spanky to go over Batista.


They're both going to draw some viewers from Japan and NJPW fans alike. :kobe


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## bme (Sep 23, 2005)

Saw the fan footage last month i was shocked at how dominate Itami/Balor looked.
Even Itami's initial fight with Ascension took me by surprise.


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## THANOS (Jun 20, 2006)

x78 said:


> ^ That's fine except it isn't what happened, Balor and Itami just charged headfirst into the ring and beat the hell out of them.


I think it depends on how you look at it. That beatdown took full advantage of Itami and Balor's momentum, combined with their speed, striking, and skill advantages, so in a sense it was "believable" under the umbrella of WWE's current theme.



paqman said:


> I agree, but the point of my post was merely saying commentary needs to explain the skill/size difference instead of just assuming the viewer is keenly aware of both of the wrestler's careers. NXT is a bit different, because most of it's fan base are hardcore fans who know Devitt and Kenta's resume, but when they get to the main roster, it's an entirely different beast that will need proper education to the casual fan.
> 
> Because to them, all they see is the size difference. The tale of the tape graphic before bigger matches would help drastically if you see "YEARS PRO" be in favor of the smaller guy. I see this in MMA all the time, and as a casual fan of that sport, it helps me a fuck ton understand what I'm looking at here. Granted, MMA typically doesn't mix and match weight classes, so in pro wrestling, it's doubly important.
> 
> So it just goes back to the presentation of the match in question and the story told in the ring and from the announce booth.


This I completely agree with, although Albert did partially hype up Balor as a big deal. But yes, they need to hype up their ribboned pasts, and that they made a career out of besting larger men than them based on how skilled, tough, and tenacious they are.

Yes, casuals watching will be initially confused, but at the same time, they will be very intrigued, as to how it's possible. This, in turn will make them tune in the following week to find out, and/or in some cases research Balor. It's a textbook way to create interest.


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## A-C-P (Jan 5, 2010)

Sorry OP, you may have some valid points, but you lost me with the line:

"Wrestling is all about believability "

Wrestling is all about suspending disbelief.


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## 5 Star Giulia ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ (Apr 21, 2014)

THANOS said:


> Yes, casuals watching will be initially confused, but at the same time, they will be very intrigued, as to how it's possible. This, in turn will make them tune in the following week to find out, and/or in some cases research Balor. It's a textbook way to create interest.


*No it isn't. Do you think everyone would just let it slide if Rey Mysterio ran to the ring and made The Undertaker his bitch on his debut? It's unacceptable. I don't care how popular these guys were on the indies, it doesn't excuse them DOMINATING two huge men who ran the place for over a year. Methodically beat them? Sure, no one has a problem with that, but they came out, kicked the shit out of them for several minutes, and stood over them like they were nothing. Like someone said on the last page: that was the time to do a clothesline spot and knock them out of the ring or do some rope diving moves and have the Ascension retreat. Instead, they just looked like complete bitches and it's insulting to the viewer's intelligence.*


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## BehindYou (Jun 16, 2011)

Didnt think they looks that small next to Viktor to be honest.


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## paqman (Sep 7, 2009)

A-C-P said:


> Sorry OP, you may have some valid points, but you lost me with the line:
> 
> "Wrestling is all about believability "
> 
> Wrestling is all about suspending disbelief.


That's also valid, but ignoring all logic prevents suspending it in the first place. I'm a huge Jackie Moore fan (hence the avatar), but her winning the Crusierweight title was just... not believable. The same goes with Hornswaggle winning it or David Arquette winning the WCW title. Counter this when Vince McMahon was WWF champion or ECW champion (GANGSTA VINCE!) and it's a bit easier to swallow given his character. Still stupid, but I was able to buy into it better given the stories involved.


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## A-C-P (Jan 5, 2010)

paqman said:


> That's also valid, but ignoring all logic prevents suspending it in the first place. I'm a huge Jackie Moore fan (hence the avatar), but her winning the Crusierweight title was just... not believable. The same goes with Hornswaggle winning it or David Arquette winning the WCW title. Counter this when Vince McMahon was WWF champion or ECW champion (GANGSTA VINCE!) and it's a bit easier to swallow given his character. Still stupid, but I was able to buy into it better given the stories involved.


I agree the story needs to be there to help it, and their can be things that take the "disbelief" way to far. But in this instance, Itami/Balor and Ascension, I don't really see the issue. Viktor isn't that big of a guy to begin with and the Ascension did just lose the tag titles to:


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## Zero G (Nov 7, 2014)

> Wrestlers are not superheroes, believability has no basis in a scripted sport


fpalm so what exactly does? the number of moves you got? or the number of flips you can do in the ring?




> In real life skill always prevails if it's a big lumbering opponent vs a skilled small opponent


Konnor and Viktor are not presented as "big lumbering opponents", no big guy ever was unless they are comedic acts. They are supposed to equally skilled, they are all trained wrestlers. 

And why is it always "skilled small opponent"? so a big opponent can't have skills in combat, a "skilled big opponent" can't exist in the real word? Isn't wrestling suppose to work under that basis?


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## THANOS (Jun 20, 2006)

Bring Back Russo said:


> *No it isn't. Do you think everyone would just let it slide if Rey Mysterio ran to the ring and made The Undertaker his bitch on his debut? It's unacceptable. I don't care how popular these guys were on the indies, it doesn't excuse them DOMINATING two huge men who ran the place for over a year. Methodically beat them? Sure, no one has a problem with that, but they came out, kicked the shit out of them for several minutes, and stood over them like they were nothing. Like someone said on the last page: that was the time to do a clothesline spot and knock them out of the ring or do some rope diving moves and have the Ascension retreat. Instead, they just looked like complete bitches and it's insulting to the viewer's intelligence.*


That comparison is way off. Rey squashing Taker is different for many reasons. For one, the size difference is much larger with Taker being booked at 7ft and Rey only 5'5, compared to Konnor at 6'5 and Balor at 5'10. Secondly, Taker has mystique about him that has built him up for 20 years as a nearly unbeatable God who wins at Mania because of his skill and resilience (his size isn't as important), compared to the Ascension who dominated the tag division in developmental for a year before losing twice to the luchadores. Their dominance isn't even in the same universe as one another. What WWE, well HHH, is doing is showing that Balor and Itami's extended history, outside of the company, of using their skill to beat nearly unbeatable opponents, casts a much greater shadow than The Ascension's.

HHH is finally booking guys like this like what they did in the past matters. Lebron James didn't come out of High School as the #1 pick, and get placed in the D-League the following year, only to show he's inferior to those players. Instead he was in the Cavs' starting 5 and proved he was a star in year 1. That, is what HHH is doing here, and it can be seen with how Itami debuted with the big unrolling of the metaphorical carpet by Regal, and the stomping of the Ascension, and with Balor debuting and doing the same.


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## x78 (May 23, 2012)

^ The James comparison isn't all that relevant, you've just said yourself that wrestling is a scripted sport. Pushing guys to be illogically dominant just because they were a star in a smaller company is pretty idiotic whichever way you look at it, by all means give them a push but don't just have them come in and steamroll guys that are much larger and have been pushed to be extremely credible for over a year. I thought Itami's debut was a fine illustration of a 'skilled smaller guy', but the Balor debut just wasn't believable IMO, it came across as disingenuous.


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## THANOS (Jun 20, 2006)

Zero G said:


> fpalm so what exactly does? the number of moves you got? or the number of flips you can do in the ring?


I wouldn't say moves, as my main point, but sure we can use that analogy. The more moves you have, the more angles of attack you can apply in any situation.



Zero G said:


> Konnor and Viktor are not presented as "big lumbering opponents", no big guy ever was unless they are comedic acts. They are supposed to equally skilled, they are all trained wrestlers.
> 
> And why is it always "skilled small opponent"? so a big opponent can't have skills in combat, a "skilled big opponent" can't exist in the real word? Isn't wrestling suppose to work under that basis?


The Ascension have always been booked and described as forces of destruction who use their size and power to overcome their opponent. They are the very description of "all size" opponents. That is where skill comes in. Balor and Itami are being heralded as Legends from Japan due to their skill and presence. Therefore, HHH is booking them as such, and showing WWE-only fans that size is not greater than years of mastered skill, and International dominance.


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## 5 Star Giulia ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ (Apr 21, 2014)

THANOS said:


> That comparison is way off. Rey squashing Taker is different for many reasons. For one, the size difference is much larger with Taker being booked at 7ft and Rey only 5'5, compared to Konnor at 6'5 and Balor at 5'10. Secondly, Taker has mystique about him that has built him up for 20 years as a nearly unbeatable God who wins at Mania because of his skill and resilience (his size isn't as important), compared to the Ascension who dominated the tag division in developmental for a year before losing twice to the luchadores. Their dominance isn't even in the same universe as one another. What WWE, well HHH, is doing is showing that Balor and Itami's extended history, outside of the company, of using their skill to beat nearly unbeatable opponents, casts a much greater shadow than The Ascension's.


*No it isn't. Rey Mysterio had an established legacy from WCW. Your argument is that it's fine because lolindies. That is an unacceptable answer. The general audience doesn't know who the hell these guys are. What you've done before WWE does not matter and Daniel Bryan is living proof of that. He had to work twice as hard to get to the top because no fucks were given about his indy history. That's the way things should be. They shouldn't have anything handed to them because they were famous in smaller promotions. It is not okay to say "They were ROH legends so they deserve to win, deal with it and look them up." Fuck everything about that. Tell a story like they're random Joes off the block, because that's what they are to the mainstream audience.
*


THANOS said:


> HHH is finally booking guys like this like what they did in the past matters. Lebron James didn't come out of High School as the #1 pick, and get placed in the D-League the following year, only to show he's inferior to those players. Instead he was in the Cavs' starting 5 and proved he was a star in year 1. That, is what HHH is doing here, and it can be seen with how Itami debuted with the big unrolling of the metaphorical carpet by Regal, and the stomping of the Ascension, and with Balor debuting and doing the same.


*This is a silly comparison. Christian Laettner came in as an overhyped 3rd draft pick college All-Star that fell flat on his face in the league. Darko Millicic was another overhyped player drafted right after Lebron and he failed in the league too. What's your point? Lebron proved he deserved his position since his first game in the NBA. Nothing was handed to him. You cannot compare the two in this case because wrestling is scripted and the NBA is based on REAL performance.*


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## swagger_ROCKS (Jun 5, 2010)

Isn't Devitt in great shape like Orton? They're all characters thou, and it depends on how well you're booked, and how well you present yourself during that booking that results in how the fans "believe in you".


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## THANOS (Jun 20, 2006)

x78 said:


> ^ The James comparison isn't all that relevant, you've just said yourself that wrestling is a scripted sport. Pushing guys to be illogically dominant just because they were a star in a smaller company is pretty idiotic whichever way you look at it, by all means give them a push but don't just have them come in and steamroll guys that are much larger and have been pushed to be extremely credible for over a year. I thought Itami's debut was a fine illustration of a 'skilled smaller guy', but the Balor debut just wasn't believable IMO, it came across as disingenuous.


It is a relevant comparison, wherever you prove you have elite skill is irrelevant (high school/college in the NBA example, or the indies/international in the wrestling example), but the fact that you proved it carries weight into whatever league you move into next. Another example would be someone like Jose Abreu coming over from Cuba and dominating the MLB in his 1st year in the bigs. Same could be said for Yasial Puig. If you prove you have elite talents (which in this case means wrestling ability as well as ability to get over/draw huge crowds) then you should steamroll through opponents that don't come close to matching that level, regardless of size.

This is HHH's new mantra since 2011, and we saw it play out in many of Punk's matches, many of Bryan's, and are now seeing it in NXT where big signings are treated like #1 draft picks ready to roll through everyone in their path. It's fine not to like it, or even agree with it, but it's not difficult to understand.


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## BehindYou (Jun 16, 2011)

swagger_ROCKS said:


> Isn't Devitt in great shape like Orton? They're all characters thou, and it depends on how well you're booked, and how well you present yourself during that booking that results in how the fans "believe in you".


 This. Book Balor as having hard strikes through use of commentary, selling and winning matches.

And what do you know, his strikes are hard enough to take down big guys.


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## Londrick (Feb 2, 2013)

Figured the vanilla midget haters would've at least waited til Itami and Finn made it to the main roster before crying about things believability in pro wrestling.


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## swagger_ROCKS (Jun 5, 2010)

Punk's booking in 2011/early 2012 story line/match wise was pretty nice. I mean the dude sold so fucking well, and made his opponents look real nice. His matches against Henry are a great example of what I mean. Orton the same as well, selling wise, I mean. 



> This. Book Balor as having hard strikes through use of commentary, selling and winning matches.
> 
> And what do you know, his strikes are hard enough to take down big guys.


I can probably keep up with NXT now. So I'm gonna need to give this guy, Steen, and Itami a good look. Of course I already know about :banderas Zayn.


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## x78 (May 23, 2012)

THANOS said:


> It is a relevant comparison, wherever you prove you have elite skill is irrelevant (high school/college in the NBA example, or the indies/international in the wrestling example), but the fact that you proved it carries weight into whatever league you move into next. Another example would be someone like Jose Abreu coming over from Cuba and dominating the MLB in his 1st year in the bigs. Same could be said for Yasial Puig. If you prove you have elite talents (which in this case means wrestling ability as well as ability to get over/draw huge crowds) then you should steamroll through opponents that don't come close to matching that level, regardless of size.
> 
> This is HHH's new mantra since 2011, and we saw it play out in many of Punk's matches, many of Bryan's, and are now seeing it in NXT where big signings are treated like #1 draft picks ready to roll through everyone in their path. It's fine not to like it, or even agree with it, but it's not difficult to understand.


The point is that Balor and Itami's 'proof of elite talents' happened in a company that does not, in WWE kayfabe, have elite status. Ascension on the other hand have proved that they do have elite talents, they dominated NXT for over a year which in kayfabe is far more difficult than being a star in a smaller promotion. The concept of signing 'free agents' is fine, but I feel like introducing them in that way was overkill, give them a platform to succeed and let them do their thing and see if it works, don't just have them come in and destroy everyone because they were big names in smaller promotions.

When this sort of thing comes up I always think of Tyler Breeze. A great, Lance Storm-trained worker, relatively charismatic and was signed by WWE at age 22. If he hadn't signed with WWE at that point, chances are he would have been working the indys for the last 4 years, probably become the ROH Champion and all the indy marks including yourself would be going crazy for the possibility of him appearing in WWE. Yes, he's a semi-main eventer in NXT, but he isn't treated as credible as some of the indy favorites despite being equally as talented (if not moreso). The point is that it isn't a fixed scale, indy guys aren't automatically better and more talented just because they were given more spotlight in a smaller promotion.


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## THANOS (Jun 20, 2006)

Bring Back Russo said:


> *No it isn't. Rey Mysterio had an established legacy from WCW. Your argument is that it's fine because lolindies. That is an unacceptable answer. The general audience doesn't know who the hell these guys are. What you've done before WWE does not matter and Daniel Bryan is living proof of that. He had to work twice as hard to get to the top because no fucks were given about his indy history. That's the way things should be. They shouldn't have anything handed to them because they were famous in smaller promotions. It is not okay to say "They were ROH legends so they deserve to win, deal with it and look them up." Fuck everything about that. Tell a story like they're random Joes off the block, because that's what they are to the mainstream audience.
> *


When a lot of stars came over from WCW in the past, WWE never really delved into their past, but instead promoted them as big signings and booked them in big feuds immediately. That is what HHH is doing with Itami, Balor, and likely, Steen.

Ever since 2011, more talented performers, regardless of size, are going over larger opponents with little adversity, and that's because there's a new direction in place. Whether you like it or not, is your own preference, but there is a sense of logic behind it.



Bring Back Russo said:


> *This is a silly comparison. Christian Laettner came in as an overhyped 3rd draft pick college All-Star that fell flat on his face in the league. What's your point? Lebron proved he deserved his position since his first game in the NBA. Nothing was handed to him.*


That's fine, no one is saying all international/independent superstars will succeed, because many don't, and the indies are full many more crap talents than they are elite talents. This is what makes the few who are elite so special. As you said some draft picks bust (Ohno, Graves, potentially Cesaro, etc.), some don't (Bryan, Punk, Paige, Rollins, Ambrose, etc.), but you still give them similar opportunities and booking, or else how will you know, especially when we're talking about some of the very top talents out there, which WWE is certainly proclaiming.


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## 5 Star Giulia ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ (Apr 21, 2014)

THANOS said:


> When a lot of stars came over from WCW in the past, WWE never really delved into their past, but instead promoted them as big signings and booked them in big feuds immediately. That is what HHH is doing with Itami, Balor, and likely, Steen.
> 
> Ever since 2011, more talented performers, regardless of size, are going over larger opponents with little adversity, and that's because there's a new direction in place. Whether you like it or not, is your own preference, but there is a sense of logic behind it.
> 
> ...


*
Look man, I think we want to reach the same destination, but we disagree on the path to getting there. All I'm saying is it's wrong for them to squash the Ascension like that. I don't care if they beat them. I'm not saying "Vanilla Midgets can't win." I'm saying they need to be methodical about it and the presentation has to be better for it to be accepted by the mainstream audience.*


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## THANOS (Jun 20, 2006)

x78 said:


> The point is that Balor and Itami's 'proof of elite talents' happened in a company that does not, in WWE kayfabe, have elite status. Ascension on the other hand have proved that they do have elite talents, they dominated NXT for over a year which in kayfabe is far more difficult than being a star in a smaller promotion. The concept of signing 'free agents' is fine, but I feel like introducing them in that way was overkill, give them a platform to succeed and let them do their thing and see if it works, don't just have them come in and destroy everyone because they were big names in smaller promotions.
> 
> When this sort of thing comes up I always think of Tyler Breeze. A great, Lance Storm-trained worker, relatively charismatic and was signed by WWE at age 22. If he hadn't signed with WWE at that point, chances are he would have been working the indys for the last 4 years, probably become the ROH Champion and all the indy marks including yourself would be going crazy for the possibility of him appearing in WWE. Yes, he's a semi-main eventer in NXT, but he isn't treated as credible as some of the indy favorites despite being equally as talented (if not moreso). The point is that it isn't a fixed scale, indy guys aren't automatically better and more talented just because they were given more spotlight in a smaller promotion.


You mistake me for being someone who loves all indy wrestlers just because they made a name on the indies. That couldn't be further from the truth. I don't watch A LOT of indy/international wrestling, and most of it, I catch on youtube, but every once in awhile I hear about a name, and research it extensively, if I like what I see, I watch more, if I don't, I stop. It's the same in any medium. 

I'm not saying they are more talented because they were in a smaller promotion, I'm saying they are more talented because they "are" more talented: in-ring wise (which isn't just "moves", crowd control, personalities, character work, etc.). It doesn't have to be all of the above, but having some of it is what crafts their legacies over there.

Keep in mind I enjoy Tyler Breeze, Enzo, Big Cas, Baron Corbin, Big E, and more.


----------



## ozzyanson (Mar 19, 2014)

Bring Back Russo said:


> *
> Look man, I think we want to reach the same destination, but we disagree on the path to getting there. All I'm saying is it's wrong for them to squash the Ascension like that. I don't care if they beat them. I'm not saying "Vanilla Midgets can't win." I'm saying they need to be methodical about it and the presentation has to be better for it to be accepted by the mainstream audience.*


Exactly right


----------



## THANOS (Jun 20, 2006)

Bring Back Russo said:


> *
> Look man, I think we want to reach the same destination, but we disagree on the path to getting there. All I'm saying is it's wrong for them to squash the Ascension like that. I don't care if they beat them. I'm not saying "Vanilla Midgets can't win." I'm saying they need to be methodical about it and the presentation has to be better for it to be accepted by the mainstream audience.*


That's perfectly fine and, personally, I agree. I think matches like Brock/Punk, HBK/Taker, and Bryan/Morishima are much more compelling to watch, as I'm a huge fan of david vs golliath contests, and I'm certain the match may be booked similar to that. That said, I think WWE did really just want to show that international/independent dominance/ability is the same as dominance/ability in WWE, and that, that I can get behind.

I don't expect everyone/anyone else to support it, which is fine, but I agree with it. Ultimately, whatever provides me with the most enjoyment is what I'll support, and I happen to like some of these guys (not so much Itami and Neville) but you get the point lol.

Oh yes, and as far as whether the mainstream will accept it or not, well look no fuirther than Punk brawling with Brock, Bryan destroying the Sheild/Evolution single-handedly, and more for proof that the mainstream audience supports it. I didn't hear one boo in those segments, and the ratings spikes were huge. WWE is only beginning to "train" it's entire audience that skill is greater than size, and by the time the likes of Balor, Itami, Steen, Zayn, and Neville come up, it will be common place. That I am almost sure of.


----------



## HOJO (Feb 25, 2012)

More proof that the post count before being able to make a thread should be between 50-100


----------



## TB Tapp (Oct 26, 2013)

In an ideal world, every wrestler would be the size of Kane or Mark Henry. Unfortunately, we don't live in an ideal world so the WWE has to try their best into tricking us into thinking that all these 5" foot 6' gnomes in NXT are ass-kicking machines. More than once I've written to the WWE suggesting they start a eugenics program wherein women (consensually) pair up with multiples tall men and the resulting children are raised by WWE-owned households and in 20+ years you have a bumper crop of nothing but gargantuan superstars. Oddly, they've never responded to any one of these letters but I keep writing and hoping.


----------



## TJQ (Sep 1, 2013)

Zero G said:


> Am I the only one who feels this way?


No, there are plenty of people that are just as stupid as you are, lil guy.

I do agree they squashed the Ascension way too easily, though.


----------



## Genking48 (Feb 3, 2009)

You don't dominate the tag division when all you beat is jobbers and not the actual 'big name' tag teams, that just makes you a jobber squasher who never had any real competition to challenge you.


----------



## 5 Star Giulia ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ (Apr 21, 2014)

AKBest Miyazawa Sae said:


> You don't dominate the tag division when all you beat is jobbers and not the actual 'big name' tag teams, that just makes you a jobber squasher who never had any real competition to challenge you.


*:drake1? Who's an actual "BIG NAME" Tag Team in 2014? Stardust? *


----------



## Joshi Judas (Jul 12, 2013)

Not too bothered since it wasn't a proper match. Even in a match, the faces usually get the upper hand for a few minutes before the heels turn it around and dominate the majority of the action.

Will wait to see how their actual tag match is booked before commenting on this topic. I do agree smaller guys shouldn't directly overpower bigger guys, but instead exploit their weaknesses and look for openings.

Thing is though, Itami, Balor and Steen have been signed and advertised as big names. They are some of the most anticipated debuts on NXT, so they will be presented as a big deal right off the bat. If these signings weren't so publicised, they'd maybe have them work their way up.


----------



## Genking48 (Feb 3, 2009)

Bring Back Russo said:


> *:drake1? Who's an actual "BIG NAME" Tag Team in 2014? Stardust? *


I don't know man, you tell me, but there have to be bigger teams in NXT than, let's see:

Travis Tyler & Troy McClain
Casey Marin & Tommy Taylor
Camacho & Hunico
The American Pitbulls
John Icarino & Mike Cuellari
Casey Marion & Mike Lebosca
Too Cool
Cal Bishop & Travis Tyler
Cal Bishop & Wesley Blake
Jack Hurley & Jonny Vandal
Buddy Murphy & Elias Sampson
Aaron Solo & Jonny Vandal 
Mac Miles & Steve Cutler
Los Matadores

Fucking state of that tag division who are half these people, thank god Lucha Dragons and now Balor/Itami came along so they could have some real challenges


----------



## Melrose92 (Apr 16, 2013)

Kevin Nash, is that you?


----------



## hhhshovel (Apr 20, 2014)

i agree. how can anyone take these vanilla midgets seriously. they are practically hornswoggle size. they should be wrestling midgets at a circus, instead of being in the same ring as a great team like the ascension.


----------



## Flashyelbow (Mar 3, 2014)

Well apparently Scott Hall takes Balor seriously he just tweeted him a congrats.


Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App


----------



## validreasoning (Jul 4, 2012)

Bring Back Russo said:


> *No it isn't. Rey Mysterio had an established legacy from WCW. Your argument is that it's fine because lolindies. That is an unacceptable answer. The general audience doesn't know who the hell these guys are. What you've done before WWE does not matter and Daniel Bryan is living proof of that. *


*

general audience don't watch nxt so your point is kind of irrelevant. the people who watch nxt are the hardcore of the hardcore. devitt got a "holy shit" chant going in the arena upon debuting

also why are people referring to kenta and devitt as indie guys? devitt was a top star in the number two company on earth this past 8 years and was in the number 3 match on the card at the tokyo dome in front of 35,000 this past january..*


----------



## THANOS (Jun 20, 2006)

TB Tapp said:


> In an ideal world, every wrestler would be the size of Kane or Mark Henry. Unfortunately, we don't live in an ideal world so the WWE has to try their best into tricking us into thinking that all these 5" foot 6' gnomes in NXT are ass-kicking machines. *More than once I've written to the WWE suggesting they start a eugenics program wherein women (consensually) pair up with multiples tall men and the resulting children are raised by WWE-owned households and in 20+ years you have a bumper crop of nothing but gargantuan superstars.* Oddly, they've never responded to any one of these letters but I keep writing and hoping.


----------



## Spaz350 (Dec 17, 2012)

I have zero problem with it, The Ascension are boring as all hell and on their way out to flop on the main roster. That beat down was the most entertaining thing they've done since picking up the belts.


----------



## THANOS (Jun 20, 2006)

validreasoning said:


> general audience don't watch nxt so your point is kind of irrelevant. the people who watch nxt are the hardcore of the hardcore. devitt got a "holy shit" chant going in the arena upon debuting
> 
> also why are people referring to kenta and devitt as indie guys? devitt was a top star in the number two company on earth this past 8 years and was in the number 3 match on the card at the tokyo dome in front of 35,000 this past january..


Because, LOLIndies dohhhhh, that's why. Intelligence and good taste, are not as prevalent on these boards as one would hope.


----------



## validreasoning (Jul 4, 2012)

to add devitt and kenta are presented as big stars on the show with hogan personally going over to japan to sign up kenta in kayfabe terms and regal introducing him to the audience at the last special

ascension are presented as just mid-level talent


----------



## 5 Star Giulia ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ (Apr 21, 2014)

THANOS said:


> Oh yes, and as far as whether the mainstream will accept it or not, well look no fuirther than Punk brawling with Brock, Bryan destroying the Sheild/Evolution single-handedly, and more for proof that the mainstream audience supports it. I didn't hear one boo in those segments, and the ratings spikes were huge. WWE is only beginning to "train" it's entire audience that skill is greater than size, and by the time the likes of Balor, Itami, Steen, Zayn, and Neville come up, it will be common place. That I am almost sure of.


*
There's a difference though. Punk beating The Shield alone was acceptable because the STORY was that they beat themselves with Reigns Spearing Ambrose, and Daniel Bryan had a 9 month struggle before going over Evolution at Wrestlemania. He didn't just show up on RAW one day and beat the shit out of all of them.

This is what we're asking for here. Why should we care who these people are if we don't follow indies? Give us something to get behind. You can't just have them squash the most dominant Tag Team in NXT and say "loluseGoogle." Something along the lines of Itami's debut is acceptable. He looked strong and ran them off in a believable fashion.*



AKBest Miyazawa Sae said:


> I don't know man, you tell me, but there have to be bigger teams in NXT than, let's see:
> 
> Travis Tyler & Troy McClain
> Casey Marin & Tommy Taylor
> ...


*
Lol. Hopefully they get called up to bring some challenges to the main roster division, aka the Usos and Stardust.*


----------



## evilshade (Feb 23, 2014)

I used to think it was just Daniel Bryan and a select few, but boy was I wrong. This midget shit going on in the WWE is getting out of control! Seriously, somebody from the higher ups PLEASE do something before these little gnomes run this company down to the ground!!!


----------



## Duke Silver (Jan 24, 2005)

What a shame your closed mindset prevents you from enjoying some tremendous talent. :shrug


----------



## SuzukiGUN (Aug 10, 2014)

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Sometime I wonder how many people have watch njpw and devitts work and kentas work in pro wrestling noah


----------



## DanielWyatt (Dec 4, 2013)

I completely agree with OP.NXT if full of midgets and cruiser weight divisons.ffs NXT champion is a high flyer.a high flyer can only draw if they are put under a mask.


----------



## Maul_Slasher (Sep 28, 2014)

I was cheering through the whole segment. Things will get interesting and I hope we get a couple of great tag matches between Balor/Itami and the Ascension. Real shame some of you don't see it that way. 

I don't really think wrestling it's about believability. I don't get intellectually offended when Adam Rose squashes Titus O'Neil (and I know I should but...) If wrestling really was about that, it wouldn't be that fun or exciting.


----------



## ozzyanson (Mar 19, 2014)

AKBest Miyazawa Sae said:


> I don't know man, you tell me, but there have to be bigger teams in NXT than, let's see:
> 
> Travis Tyler & Troy McClain
> Casey Marin & Tommy Taylor
> ...


You are way out of date here and most of these guys have been future endeavored. The current NXT tag division is very, very strong. Buddy Murphy and Wesley Blake are top quality. Lefort and Louis are also very good. I think everyone else on this list has been fired or is an indy guy.


----------



## Delbusto (Apr 6, 2008)

ozzyanson said:


> You are way out of date here and most of these guys have been future endeavored. The current NXT tag division is very, very strong. Buddy Murphy and Wesley Blake are top quality. Lefort and Louis are also very good. I think everyone else on this list has been fired or is an indy guy.


I think you missed the point of that post. I could be wrong, but I think he was arguing against those that said Ascension has been dominating NXT. That is a list of a lot of the teams the Ascension has beaten.


----------



## JerichoWannabe (Feb 10, 2012)

Chris Jericho took down Goldberg in real life.
Yoshi Tatsu beat the shit out of Sheamus in real life.
Joey f'n Styles knocked out JBL in real life.

You don't really have to suspend your disbelief too much to believe that guys like Balor and Itami could take down bigger guys with their particular styles and movesets. You're watching pro-wrestling, where Undertaker can summon lightening and Paul Bearer can be buried in cement, this isn't some gritty HBO drama.


----------



## Genking48 (Feb 3, 2009)

Delbusto1 said:


> I think you missed the point of that post. I could be wrong, but I think he was arguing against those that said Ascension has been dominating NXT. That is a list of a lot of the teams the Ascension has beaten.


Indeed, hit it right on the head there.

People say The Ascension has been dominating the tag division, but those teams are all that they faced in their run as tag champs, they didn't face Buddy Murphy and Wesley Blake or Lefort and Louis, they faced those other teams, so what exactly have they been dominating?


----------



## Spaz350 (Dec 17, 2012)

So, if I understand correctly, because of balor's size, you would have been more comfortable seeing him and Itami squashing a smaller-sized team like the Lucia Dragons or the Vaudevillains? No one would have cared if they had, because they're not billed as DOMINANT tag teams. If you want to maximize the "holy shit this guy/these guys mean business" factor, you go after the (perceived, in this case) biggest, baddest dogs in the room. And who's to say that someone their size couldn't squash the bigger guys? It's not as though Itami choke slammed Konnor or Balor military pressed Viktor. They came off the turnbuckle/apron, something smaller guys ALWAYS do to combat bigger guys, and Itami used a variant of a move that is kayfabe known to have beaten John Cena clean. The new guys caught the big guys off guard and unprepared, and kicked their asses. They'll most likely get their own asses kicked a few times before going over, and they'll play the underdogs in the final match. So what if the Smark-riddled NXT crowd popped for Balor and gave a chant or two, it's widely known that the crowd there is vastly different than the average main roster crowd. Without vignettes or setups, neither of them would likely get much of a reaction debuting the same way on raw. So get over it. People have been waiting for his debut, and popped for it, and NXT creative gave them what they wanted and made balor look like a bad motherfucker.

Also, I've said it before - I can't believe everyone is so up in arms over the Ascension getting beat down. I don't understand in the least what people see in them, not even trolling. Konnor has an extremely limited moveset, Viktor has no charisma, neither of them can talk, they've wrestled virtually the same match every time for over a year, and their "dominance" is based on months of them squashing local jobbers instead of actual tag teams. Their gimmick isn't capitalized on, their finisher is a watered down version of an older one, their merch and gear doesn't match ANYTHING, and their name and supposed catchphrase means nothing. Literally the only positive thing I see is a badass entrance. I honestly wish they'd been brought up by now, just so they can get their flop out of the way and we can move on. ascension, as a gimmick and a team, should have disappeared with Kennth Cameron's wwe career.



DanielWyatt said:


> I completely agree with OP.NXT if full of midgets and cruiser weight divisons.ffs NXT champion is a high flyer.a high flyer can only draw if they are put under a mask.


Wow, I'm impressed. It must be difficult for you to get online and post from back there in 1998.


----------



## elhijodelbodallas (Jan 30, 2014)

I don't think this was anything to be crying about. It came off as stupid but stranger things have happened. Devitt looked awfully small and skinny though, I'll give you that.

I don't think it's a problem to have many small guys if they're all very different from each other and fill different roles. We haven't reached the point of concern yet, even though we're getting very close to it in NXT. Regarding the main roster I'm not concerned at all because most of the guys have a very low ceiling. Tyson Kidd is a midcarder at best (he could get over big if WWE knew what they're doing but unfortunately they don't), Tyler Breeze is a Fandango, Neville will have the Rey Mysterio spot of upper midcarder/occasional main-eventer, Zayn will be a popular midcarder for a while before he gets over huge and Itami won't be anything past a midcard jobber (if he ever gets to the main roster that is). The glass ceiling is very much still there and only those with extraordinary talent (Bryan, Neville, Zayn) will be able to shatter it.

I've said it in the past and I'll say it again, Bálor without the bodypaint is a midcarder at best. The question is to what degree does the bodypaint get over.


----------



## SuperSaucySausages (Mar 15, 2014)

Balor "Skinny" 

:lmao


----------



## Darkness is here (Mar 25, 2014)

bama


----------



## elhijodelbodallas (Jan 30, 2014)

SuperSaucySausages said:


> Balor "Skinny"
> 
> :lmao


What? He can't be skinny just because he has a six pack? Compare his body to Neville's for example. He's very... whatever the opposite of thick is. Lean I guess.


----------



## Genking48 (Feb 3, 2009)

Yeah, I would say Neville is more compact in his body type than Balor, Balor ain't skinny, he is just not that compact.


----------



## ozzyanson (Mar 19, 2014)

Yeah - I did misunderstand. Apologies. However, the OP's point is still valid. Creative needed to do better than this to make the smaller guy's win credible.

The last few intakes of trainees include some big guys: stowman, Knox,Myles, woods, so it looks like they know they need some true heavyweights.


----------



## Chris JeriG.O.A.T (Jun 17, 2014)

Being that Bryan is my favorite current wrestler I'm not one of those "lolmidgets" guys but there's a problem if a see a small guy up against a monster and think that the monster is going to get obliterated. That's the future of the product when theses indy/puro guys can come in and automatically get pushed over people who have been properly built up. 

You can't tell me that the PC is for making future stars if they all take a backseat to a bunch of 30 year olds who may or may not not have casual appeal but make a lot of money.

Now Ascension might not be those stars but let's see who else gets buried to complete the NJPWWE wet dream, Owens has to squash somebody too plus I'm sure they'll be more signings in the future.


----------



## validreasoning (Jul 4, 2012)

Chris JeriG.O.A.T said:


> Being that Bryan is my favorite current wrestler I'm not one of those "lolmidgets" guys but there's a problem if a see a small guy up against a monster and think that the monster is going to get obliterated. That's the future of the product when theses indy/puro guys can come in and automatically get pushed over people who have been properly built up.


if this were 1999 kenta and devitt would debut straight away on the main roster, those two above everyone else (including steen) already operate at a much higher level than anyone in nxt.

putting devitt and kenta in nxt is like putting jericho/benoit and eddie in ovw back in 2000. if that happened i doubt many would be complaining if they beat up ron h2o waterman or rico back then


----------



## DemBoy (Dec 3, 2013)

People calling indy guys midgets...


----------



## DGenerationMC (Jan 30, 2011)

:lmao College geeks :lmao


----------



## Chris JeriG.O.A.T (Jun 17, 2014)

validreasoning said:


> if this were 1999 kenta and devitt would debut straight away on the main roster, those two above everyone else (including steen) already operate at a much higher level than anyone in nxt.
> 
> putting devitt and kenta in nxt is like putting jericho/benoit and eddie in ovw back in 2000. if that happened i doubt many would be complaining if they beat up ron h2o waterman or rico back then


I stopped watching WCW when Jericho joined WWE; if they have that kind of star power then I get it. I've seen some of their past work and personally I'm not seeing it. Good luck to them trying to get over with just ring work with a crowd that watches the same exact matches week after week. 

Time will tell if they can get over with "sports entertainment" fans the way they got over with "wrestling" fans but if they don't then pushing them at the expense of ground built sports entertainers may be a critical mistake.


----------



## elhijodelbodallas (Jan 30, 2014)

validreasoning said:


> if this were 1999 kenta and devitt would debut straight away on the main roster, those two above everyone else (including steen) already operate at a much higher level than anyone in nxt.
> 
> putting devitt and kenta in nxt is like putting jericho/benoit and eddie in ovw back in 2000. if that happened i doubt many would be complaining if they beat up ron h2o waterman or rico back then


If that were true then there would be a noticeable difference in the quality of their work when compared to the other guys and that's definitely not what has been happening. Itami in particular was underwhelming. There are guys in NXT who are tremendously talented (Scott Dawson and Breeze for example) who don't have a "famous" name or an indy background. Those OVW examples are completely inappropriate. Jericho, Benoit and Guerrero were in WCW during the 90's when WCW was a more successful company than WWF, not to mention their previous work internationally, so I don't think you can compare that to KENTA being whatever he was in NOAH (which has been dying since 2010 or whatever) and Devitt being a foreigner in NJPW, which only recently became a successful company again.


----------



## DanielBlitzkrieg (Jul 10, 2014)

A-C-P said:


> Sorry OP, you may have some valid points, but you lost me with the line:
> 
> "Wrestling is all about believability "
> 
> Wrestling is all about suspending disbelief.


They're virtually synonymous.


----------



## x78 (May 23, 2012)

elhijodelbodallas said:


> If that were true then there would be a noticeable difference in the quality of their work when compared to the other guys and that's definitely not what has been happening. Itami in particular was underwhelming. There are guys in NXT who are tremendously talented (Scott Dawson and Breeze for example) who don't have a "famous" name or an indy background. Those OVW examples are completely inappropriate. Jericho, Benoit and Guerrero were in WCW during the 90's when WCW was a more successful company than WWF, not to mention their previous work internationally, so I don't think you can compare that to KENTA being whatever he was in NOAH (which has been dying since 2010 or whatever) and Devitt being a foreigner in NJPW, which only recently became a successful company again.


This, pretty much. Jericho, Benoit and Eddie were already big names to mainstream American wrestling audiences and had performed successfully in a company that was bigger than WWE at the time, that's totally different to working strong style for years and getting over with Japanese audiences. Again, if Tyler Breeze had wrestled in Japan would that mean he was worthy of coming in and getting a huge push? The point is that people should be judged on their talent level and pushed accordingly, given a chance to get over but not just come in and smash everyone because of what they did before coming to WWE. Balor's debut was nothing but a smark wankfest.


----------



## Genking48 (Feb 3, 2009)

So Itami and Balor should have been beaten down by Ascension, making it the what, 5th beatdown of Itami by Ascension, completely burying Itami and giving Balor a horrible start at NXT, who the fuck would watch a guy if fist thing he did coming in wmas lose.


----------



## Eva MaRIHyse (Jun 20, 2014)

It looked beyond stupid. 2 guys who are barely taller than the ropes beating down the Ascension. Just looks so stupid, I know everyone loves the little guys but you need to work in believable psychology into these sort of situations. Cant just have 2 midgets beat the crap out of 2 giants.


----------



## Jof (Nov 29, 2012)

Chris JeriG.O.A.T said:


> Being that Bryan is my favorite current wrestler I'm not one of those "lolmidgets" guys but *there's a problem if a see a small guy up against a monster and think that the monster is going to get obliterated. *That's the future of the product when theses indy/puro guys can come in and automatically get pushed over people who have been properly built up.
> 
> You can't tell me that the PC is for making future stars if they all take a backseat to a bunch of 30 year olds who may or may not not have casual appeal but make a lot of money.
> 
> Now Ascension might not be those stars but let's see who else gets buried to complete the NJPWWE wet dream, Owens has to squash somebody too plus I'm sure they'll be more signings in the future.


Very true, especially bolded part. Whatever happened to making these guys earn their push? why are we even automatically expected to know their pre-WWE work? especially after considering the fact WWE is so far and above in another stratosphere when compared to the promotions these guys came from? There is no WCW anymore, which leads me to...




validreasoning said:


> if this were 1999 kenta and devitt would debut straight away on the main roster, those two above everyone else (including steen) already operate at a much higher level than anyone in nxt.
> 
> putting devitt and kenta in nxt is like putting jericho/benoit and eddie in ovw back in 2000. if that happened i doubt many would be complaining if they beat up ron h2o waterman or rico back then


See this is the problem, these Indy/puro promotions are not WCW. WCW was direct competition and shared the same fucking market and fanbase as WWF. That's why Jericho/Benoit/Eddie and others later were directly brought in and pushed. Skill level had little to do with this, exposure was the primary reason. Its not even to close to being the same with these guys right now.

The current fanbase doesn't even watch TNA for fucks sake, and TNA is suppose to be the second biggest with a television deal. Keep that in mind.


----------



## x78 (May 23, 2012)

AKBest Miyazawa Sae said:


> So Itami and Balor should have been beaten down by Ascension, making it the what, 5th beatdown of Itami by Ascension, completely burying Itami and giving Balor a horrible start at NXT, who the fuck would watch a guy if fist thing he did coming in wmas lose.


No, they just could've done it in a way that didn't come across as forced and intelligence insulting.


----------



## DemBoy (Dec 3, 2013)

x78 said:


> No, they just could've done it in a way that didn't come across as forced and intelligence insulting.


I never knew that wrestling was all about respecting the audience intelligence.


----------



## Eva MaRIHyse (Jun 20, 2014)

NJPW/ROH/etc. aren't WCW, the Japanese promotions may be huge in Japan but much, much less so on the world stage. Most casual fans have zero idea who theseguys are that get brought in and just smash their way through the roster because they were a big name in high school gyms.


----------



## validreasoning (Jul 4, 2012)

elhijodelbodallas said:


> If that were true then there would be a noticeable difference in the quality of their work when compared to the other guys and that's definitely not what has been happening. Itami in particular was underwhelming.


i could pull up a dozen threads with people here saying the same thing about bryan in 2010...

once kenta gets used to the wwe style he will be flying




> Those OVW examples are completely inappropriate.


konnor has been how long in developmental like 4 years and still no sign of getting called up. he has a cool gimmick, had a cool entrance and is big and yet still not on the main roster at 35

if you don't like the examples i used then the ascension are nxts version of damaja and doug basham



x78 said:


> This, pretty much. Jericho, Benoit and Eddie were already big names to mainstream American wrestling audiences and had performed successfully in a company that was bigger than WWE at the time, that's totally different to working strong style for years and getting over with Japanese audiences. Again, if Tyler Breeze had wrestled in Japan would that mean he was worthy of coming in and getting a huge push? The point is that people should be judged on their talent level and pushed accordingly, given a chance to get over but not just come in and smash everyone because of what they did before coming to WWE. Balor's debut was nothing but a smark wankfest.


newsflash the people watching nxt are not mainstream american wrestling audiences. once again they are hardcore fans who watch roh/new japan etc. thats why devitt got a massive pop and a holy shit chants going despite the crowd being clearly tired after watching 4 hours of wrestling (devitt debuted right at very end of the marathon of tapings)

not sure what you expect wwe to do with guys like devitt. have them work their way up through developmental for the next 3 years or something..those guys are only in nxt to learn the wwe style and will be fast-tracked to the mainroster probably no later than april is my bet (but probably before that)

if tyler breeze was one of the top guys in the new japan then of course he would get a huge push off the bat. albert/tensai wasn't near the star that devitt was in new japan and he got a big push when he re-signed with wwe in 2012 with the original plan of maineventing ppvs alongside cena.



EvaMaryse said:


> It looked beyond stupid. 2 guys who are barely taller than the ropes beating down the Ascension. Just looks so stupid, I know everyone loves the little guys but you need to work in believable psychology into these sort of situations. Cant just have 2 midgets beat the crap out of 2 giants.


devitts like 2 inches shorter than hhh


----------



## Eva MaRIHyse (Jun 20, 2014)

validreasoning said:


> i could pull up a dozen threads with people here saying the same thing about bryan in 2010...
> 
> once kenta gets used to the wwe style he will be flying
> 
> ...


Has to be wearing heels in that pic he barely looked taller than the ropes on NXT.


----------



## Genking48 (Feb 3, 2009)

x78 said:


> No, they just could've done it in a way that didn't come across as forced and intelligence insulting.


If you find that it insulted your intelligence because two guys beat up two guys bigger than them then maybe you're watching wrestling with the wrong mindset, has happened loads of times.

Are the thoughts the same whenever Roman Reigns is booked like a powerhouse despite being smaller than most of the guys he's in the ring with?


----------



## Bandwagon_derailed (Apr 5, 2014)

God forbid someone tells it like it is, face facts pro wrestling was made for beasts not midgets.


----------



## birthday_massacre (Jan 30, 2013)

Zero G said:


> Itami and Balor, two short dudes who look like college geeks completely burying Ascension and standing tall over their beaten bodies? Where is the believability? Pro-wrestling is all about believability. Entire beat down looked so awkward and phony out there, with Konnor and Viktor trying to sell those punches. Maybe this midget shit gets over in Japan(even this is debatable considering the current pathetic state of Jap wrestling scene, and Bob Sapp being a huge star with nothing but his looks) but WWE is not Japan in anyway, its the land of giants. This will only get laughed at, if mainstream american fans ever saw it.
> 
> Its WRESTLING for fuck sake, its a spectacle sport, looks absolutely DOES matter. Why are we even expected to appreciate some average looking dudes, that you can bump into walking down on the streets fight against each other? I don't watch WWE for that, that's not the point of a sport like wrestling. Midgets lack believability because of their size, not their fault and I understand them getting these opportunities on top, but as a fan I'm not willing to sacrifice the fun of watching a spectacle sport like wrestling just so these people can main event. They just don't belong in that spot.
> 
> ...



You know Bruce Lee was 5'4 and could destory guys twice his size right?
Size has NOTHING to do with how tough you are. And looks DONT matter, talent does.

You can't tell me you would rather watch a Big Show vs Henry mach than a Balor vs Itami match.

There is a reason why even when the NWO was at his most popular the cruiser weights were putting on the best matches and stealing the show.

Guys like Beniot, Jericho, Eddie, Pillman, Rey, Juventud, Melanko, Liger etc etc were all putting on way better matches than than heavy weights were.


----------



## Flashyelbow (Mar 3, 2014)

People still talking about shorter guys like it's taboo. The whole big guy thing died in the 80's get over it.


Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App


----------



## birthday_massacre (Jan 30, 2013)

x78 said:


> No, they just could've done it in a way that didn't come across as forced and intelligence insulting.


So I guess this real life example insults our intellgience too right







Or how about this one


----------



## x78 (May 23, 2012)

AKBest Miyazawa Sae said:


> If you find that it insulted your intelligence because two guys beat up two guys bigger than them then maybe you're watching wrestling with the wrong mindset, has happened loads of times.
> 
> Are the thoughts the same whenever Roman Reigns is booked like a powerhouse despite being smaller than most of the guys he's in the ring with?


No, it's just in the presentation. You don't see Manny Pacquiao and Floyd Mayweather coming to the ring and beating the hell out of the Klitschko brothers and leaving them knocked out on the ground within a matter of seconds. No problem with Itami and Balor beating up Ascension, in fact I liked Itami's debut and thought it was well executed but as someone who isn't already a mark, Balor's was stupid.


DemBoy said:


> I never knew that wrestling was all about respecting the audience intelligence.


Good wrestling is.


----------



## Flashyelbow (Mar 3, 2014)

x78 said:


> No, it's just in the presentation. You don't see Manny Pacquiao and Floyd Mayweather coming to the ring and beating the hell out of the Klitschko brothers and leaving them knocked out on the ground within a matter of seconds. No problem with Itami and Balor beating up Ascension, in fact I liked Itami's debut and thought it was well executed but as someone who isn't already a mark, Balor's was stupid.
> 
> Good wrestling is.



We saw Floyd come out and fuck up Big Show on a Raw.


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----------



## Chris JeriG.O.A.T (Jun 17, 2014)

The IWC always wants WWE to be more like MMA well there are weight classes in MMA for a reason; yes every so often a very skilled smaller person comes a long who can beat bigger guys but by building the WWE around that premise there will come a day when you see Lake Harper playing the underdog to a guy who looks like a Starbucks barista.


----------



## birthday_massacre (Jan 30, 2013)

x78 said:


> No, it's just in the presentation. You don't see Manny Pacquiao and Floyd Mayweather coming to the ring and beating the hell out of the Klitschko brothers and leaving them knocked out on the ground within a matter of seconds. No problem with Itami and Balor beating up Ascension, in fact I liked Itami's debut and thought it was well executed but as someone who isn't already a mark, Balor's was stupid.
> Good wrestling is.


Yes good wrestling is and Balor and Itami are way better wrestlers than Ascension.

As for you don't see smaller boxers beating up bigger ones. Did you forget that Roy Jones Jr. you know a MIDDLEWEIGHT boxer moved to heavyweight to beat the world champion Johnny Ruiz?

Jones gave up a ton of weight in this fight yet still dominated it.


----------



## x78 (May 23, 2012)

Flashyelbow said:


> We saw Floyd come out and fuck up Big Show on a Raw.
> 
> 
> Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App


That was stupid too, although at least it was cross-discipline so you could make the excuse that Mayweather fucked him up with boxing techniques that Big Show wasn't prepared or trained for. Mayweather didn't come out and start suplexing or hitting chokeslams on Big Show.



birthday_massacre said:


> Yes good wrestling is and Balor and Itami are way better wrestlers than Ascension.
> 
> As for you don't see smaller boxers beating up bigger ones. Did you forget that Roy Jones Jr. you know a MIDDLEWEIGHT boxer moved to heavyweight to beat the world champion Johnny Ruiz?
> 
> Jones gave up a ton of weight in this fight yet still dominated it.


Did you read my posts? I'm not saying it can't happen, I'm saying the way Balor and Itami charged to the ring and physically beat the hell out of Ascension was stupid.


----------



## validreasoning (Jul 4, 2012)

minowa is about the same size as kenta..


----------



## Flashyelbow (Mar 3, 2014)

x78 said:


> That was stupid too, although at least it was cross-discipline so you could make the excuse that Mayweather fucked him up with boxing techniques that Big Show wasn't prepared or trained for. Mayweather didn't come out and start suplexing or hitting chokeslams on Big Show.



Neither did Balor or Itami they did drop kicks and such as well you could say the Ascension were caught off guard. As for being stupid you must think the Lucha Dragons beating them was stupid too. This whole big guy always beating the smaller guy is stupid as fuck, it hasn't been a relevant thing since the 80's. 


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## birthday_massacre (Jan 30, 2013)

x78 said:


> That was stupid too, although at least it was cross-discipline so you could make the excuse that Mayweather fucked him up with boxing techniques that Big Show wasn't prepared or trained for. Mayweather didn't come out and start suplexing or hitting chokeslams on Big Show.
> 
> Did you read my posts? I'm not saying it can't happen, I'm saying the way Balor and Itami charged to the ring and physically beat the hell out of Ascension was stupid.


Did you watch the videos I posted? those were real life I guess those are stupid too right?


----------



## Loudon Wainwright (Jul 23, 2014)

It's absolutely ridiculous. Keep the midgets in the midcard, that's where they put on the best matches anyways.


----------



## Ham and Egger (Dec 13, 2005)

OP must've forgotten that the Ascension lost the titles to the LuchaDragons. It's 2014, Daniel Bryan WRECKED HHH, Batista and Orton in one night to become the champion, get over yourself! :lmao :lol :jay2


----------



## validreasoning (Jul 4, 2012)

wrestling fans on here do make me laugh though most times.

they want believability all the while reminiscing about a time gone by when vince was beating ken shamrock, austin with a broken neck and two huge knee braces holding his body together was being portrayed as guy tougher than tyson, mick foley was beating opponents by sticking a sock with a face drawn on it down their throats and wrestlers just stood there and took chair shots to the face and head with no attempt to protect themselves like a normal person would in real life

funny thing is if you asked the majority of people here who the worst world champion in wwe history was most would say jack swagger..the same swagger that if wwe was real would be champion for about the last 5 years


----------



## Scottish-Suplex (Apr 2, 2012)

If you think wrestling is about believability you need a new hobby. It's about stupid goofy fun.


----------



## elhijodelbodallas (Jan 30, 2014)

validreasoning said:


> wrestling fans on here do make me laugh though most times.
> 
> they want believability all the while reminiscing about a time gone by when vince was beating ken shamrock, austin with a broken neck and two huge knee braces holding his body together was being portrayed as guy tougher than tyson, mick foley was beating opponents by sticking a sock with a face drawn on it down their throats and wrestlers just stood there and took chair shots to the face and head with no attempt to protect themselves like a normal person would in real life
> 
> funny thing is if you asked the majority of people here who the worst world champion in wwe history was most would say jack swagger..the same swagger that if wwe was real would be champion for about the last 5 years


You need to understand the difference between "real believability" and "kayfabe believability". Nobody questions the Undertaker shooting lightning from the sky or Kane summoning fire and those things are way more unbelievable than Bálor kicking the Ascension's ass all by himself. You can teach the audience to accept whatever you want as long as you explain why in a reasonable manner. What you can't do is present things without a proper introduction and expect the people to buy it and believe it. If you tell us AND show us (evidence) that a small guy is an asskicker (Daniel Bryan for example) then everything is ok. If instead of that you simply throw a small, unimpressive looking guy on TV and let him beat the hell out of a tag-team then it just comes across as phony and stupid.

No MMA comparisions please, that's just stupid. MMA is all about skill, in wrestling skill barely even exists in kayfabe. How many times have we been told that Cena is not as skilled as some of the other guys? Yet he always wins because he "wants it more" and "never gives up"...


----------



## Japanese Puroresu (Jan 12, 2013)

Markus123 said:


> 'Pro-wrestling is all about believability' :lol since when?! And tbh I can imagine Itami and Balor beating down Ascension, Balor is ripped!


That and they're both legitimate shooters. Kenta trains with Taiyo Sun Nakahara for his fights and he trains with other fighters. Devitt did that same thing with catch wrestling. He's a legitimate threat.


----------



## x78 (May 23, 2012)

Flashyelbow said:


> Neither did Balor or Itami they did drop kicks and such as well you could say the Ascension were caught off guard. As for being stupid you must think the Lucha Dragons beating them was stupid too. This whole big guy always beating the smaller guy is stupid as fuck, it hasn't been a relevant thing since the 80's.


Well let's just forget any semblance of logic in wrestling then, let's have Sami Zayn overpowering Baron Corbin on next week's show, maybe Christian can win the US title after breaking out of Rusev's Accolade.

The fact that most of you are missing is that this wasn't a match, Balor and Itami didn't beat them with skill and quickness like Lucha Dragons, Ascension were straight up knocked unconscious in a beatdown. So what are we supposed to think, that Balor is an unstoppable brawler? I really doubt that's his character, and I'd have a hard time believing him in that role if it was because his physical attributes just don't allow for it. No problem with Lucha Dragons beating Ascension with speed and high-flying, no problem with Itami taking them by surprise and getting the better of them at Takeover 2 with his tenacity and skill, but I do have a problem with them being knocked unconscious in a matter of seconds by two sub-200lbs guys in a straight up beatdown. If Balor and Itami had countered their attacks and run them out of the ring or something then that would've been fine.


birthday_massacre said:


> Did you watch the videos I posted? those were real life I guess those are stupid too right?


Those videos aren't relevant at all, nobody knows who the fuck those guy are, Ascension were presented as dominant for over a year and suddenly a guy with no kayfabe credentials as a brawler and no obvious physical advantage comes in and beats their asses by himself. It's just stupid and comes across as disingenuous.


----------



## Japanese Puroresu (Jan 12, 2013)

birthday_massacre said:


> You know Bruce Lee was 5'4 and could destory guys twice his size right?
> Size has NOTHING to do with how tough you are. And looks DONT matter, talent does.
> 
> You can't tell me you would rather watch a Big Show vs Henry mach than a Balor vs Itami match.
> ...


No Bruce Lee couldn't. He doesn't have any legitimate fights on video at any point. Everything involving Bruce Lee is hearsay and nothing more. Mike Tyson would wreck Bruce Lee plain and simple.


----------



## birthday_massacre (Jan 30, 2013)

x78 said:


> Well let's just forget any semblance of logic in wrestling then, let's have Sami Zayn overpowering Baron Corbin on next week's show, maybe Christian can win the US title after breaking out of Rusev's Accolade.
> 
> The fact that most of you are missing is that this wasn't a match, Balor and Itami didn't beat them with skill and quickness like Lucha Dragons, Ascension were straight up knocked unconscious in a beatdown. So what are we supposed to think, that Balor is an unstoppable brawler? I really doubt that's his character, and I'd have a hard time believing him in that role if it was because his physical attributes just don't allow for it. No problem with Lucha Dragons beating Ascension with speed and high-flying, no problem with Itami taking them by surprise and getting the better of them at Takeover 2 with his tenacity and skill, but I do have a problem with them being knocked unconscious in a matter of seconds by two sub-200lbs guys in a straight up beatdown. If Balor and Itami had countered their attacks and run them out of the ring or something then that would've been fine.
> Those videos aren't relevant at all, nobody knows who the fuck those guy are, Ascension were presented as dominant for over a year and suddenly a guy with no kayfabe credentials as a brawler and no obvious physical advantage comes in and beats their asses by himself. It's just stupid and comes across as disingenuous.


Of course its relevant, you keep harping how its not believable smaller guys would win in fights over bigger guys yet I gave you real world examples of it happening.

Please wrestling IS FAKE. 

Did you get pissed off when Rocky who is a shit fighter because appolo creed, mr T and Drago?


----------



## x78 (May 23, 2012)

Fuck, you just don't get it do you, read my fucking posts, if you don't understand why a video of some random guys fighting on the street is different to Balor coming in and beating down Ascension on his debut then whatever, I'm not repeating myself again.


----------



## Loudon Wainwright (Jul 23, 2014)

birthday_massacre said:


> There is a reason why even when the NWO was at his most popular the cruiser weights were putting on the best matches and stealing the show.
> 
> Guys like Beniot, Jericho, Eddie, Pillman, Rey, Juventud, Melanko, Liger etc etc were all putting on way better matches than than heavy weights were.


Yes they were. They were all fighting people of similar size, though. Ignoring the believability factor for the second, for the sake of match quality, who is a better pairing?

Daniel Bryan vs. John Cena
or
Daniel Bryan vs. Tyson Kidd

Now, Daniel Bryan vs. John Cena at SummerSlam was a great match, but it is nowhere near the technical masterpiece a Bryan/Kidd match the same length would be. There is no shame being in the midcard, Malenko was a career midcarder and he has one of the best match catalogs around. Bryan is one of my favorites and I'd prefer him in the midcard putting on clinics with guys like Cesaro, Axel and Swagger over main eventing against Kane.


----------



## hhhshovel (Apr 20, 2014)

these midgets should form a 3mb group. fat man owens can be the leader of the group. itami can be the jinder of the group. and the other midget can be the mcintyre of the group


----------



## I Love Angelina (Sep 10, 2014)

they r short but not that short. so OP, please fuck off.


----------



## Kowalski's Killer (Aug 23, 2013)

Royce Gracie is six feet tall and 176 lbs and is possibly the toughest MMA fighter of all time. If size is all you want then go watch some Giant Gonzalez matches. They're fantastic.


----------



## TD Stinger (May 9, 2012)

Dear God I think people are really missing the point. Look, I think it's very close minded to dismiss someone off their side. Even I have said in the past, they're are a few too many "small" guys on NXT. But at the end of the day, I like a diverse roster. The same roster that has Neville, Zayn, Breeze, Itami, and Balor also features guys like Corbin, Dempsey, The Ascension, and eventually Kevin Owens. So I can't complain that much.

But I don't care how skilled two guys are. They should not dominate two guys who have dominated NXT the past year. Run in, do some kicks, have them look strong, and have The Ascension high tail it up the ramp. They looked like bitches. Why should I really care about the match now? The way they booked it, one would think Itami and Balor are really that much better than The Ascension. It was just way too much too soon.


----------



## DerangedDutchmanTJ (Jul 31, 2014)

Wtf... You talk about believability guys?
With all respect, if this was NJPW, I would've understood it, but (American) pro wrestling in general presents itself as a joke nowadays.

If you want believability go watch UFC, One FC, hell, Glory or old Pride and Pancrase tapes, but the words American pro wrestling and believability just don't match.


----------



## DerangedDutchmanTJ (Jul 31, 2014)

Btw, some of you complain about size. 
WWE is about entertainment, and if someone has a unique and entertaining gimmick, great skills and a look, size shouldn't matter.
When nature gives you a unfavorable length, then you gotta compensate that with something that makes you stand out from the pack.


----------



## Loudness (Nov 14, 2011)

I think the only advantage taller guys have above short guys is looks and presence, plus I gotta admit I can relate to them better.

However there are many styles where Tall people are simply at a disadvantage. We're not as quick or agile as short people so unless you're named Brock Lesnar you're not gonna jump around like crazy. Highflying and Technical Wrestling has always been dominated by short people. Sure there's guys like Rollins or Morrison who are tall (not Giant sized, but still at a good height) and are good high-flyers but they are the exception, not the rule. Guys who are 6'4/6'5" and above that can do those things such as Chris Hero or Antonio Cesaro (talking technical Wrestling here) are even more rare. Since those two Wrestling Styles are very popular there will always be a demand for people who excel at those Styles - which are mostly short guys i.e Bryan, Neville.

However one I thing I do not agree is small and/or short guys physically dominating bigger guys unless they're built like absolute Tanks. This is where I draw the line. I can buy short/small guys outwrestling bigger guys or beeing so agile they barely get hit and landing high Impact moves or out-smarting them, but I don't want to see a 300lbs Ryback getting dominated by some sub 200lbs shrimp in a brawl or over-selling the shit out of their moves, this destroys storytelling and the appeal the bigger guys bring to the Table. If they wanna do that they better back it up by beeing some Powerlifting/Olympic Weightlifting Championships and outstanding p4p Strength or else I'm not going to buy into it. I thought it looked horrible when CM Punk dominated The Rock in their brawls for example, he wasn't out-witting, out-speeding or outwrestling him there, he was just over-powering him and I didn't buy into those brawls one bit because of that. Wrestlers are supposed to make each other look good, when the big guys suddenly get beaten in what was supposed to be their forte they lose their appeal, they get effectively buried and become irrelevant and useless which is not something you'd want. Imagine Undertaker running away from Rey Mysterio or getting annihilated by him in a brawl and looking like the Underdog. You do not want that ever.


----------



## THEBROODRULEZ666 (Oct 5, 2010)

Delbert Grady said:


> Nothin OP says is wrong. Kenta and Balor will not move the ratings meter when they get called up.
> 
> I swear, if some of you were watching years back, you'd of been clamoring for Spanky to go over Batista.


Believe it or not, not all of us care about ratings.


----------



## Geeee (Aug 9, 2010)

You must live in the Calvin Klein model district if Finn Balor looks like a regular dude to you.


----------



## Dreamcast99 (Sep 4, 2014)

birthday_massacre said:


> Please wrestling IS FAKE.


Kayfabe is dead. But, that doesn't mean the next step is to piss on the grave and burn down the whole cemetery.


----------



## papercuts_hurt (Mar 21, 2013)

I think some of you guys are getting too worked up over the beatdown...yeah, they did just kind of roll through the Ascension, who have been presented as total badasses up to this point, but I attributed that to a variant of the "surprise music plays and the heel gets distracted and loses" thing that happens. Like they were so shocked and unprepared for Balor that they just got caught off guard and got their asses kicked. But it's not like they even lost a match. Who knows maybe Konnor could have even kicked out of that double stomp at 2 if they had tried for a pin. I'm sure when they do an actual match it will be much more competitive. 

They just wanted to show off that Balor is a bad ass, and I think it was done believably enough. He just ran in and kicked them and jumped on them a bunch of times. It's not like he wrestled them into a deadlift power bomb or something.


----------



## Oda Nobunaga (Jun 12, 2006)

I can. Hell, I grew up on Cruiserweight Division wrestling in the mid-to-late 90s in WCW. Also, Itami and Balor are touted as international superstars with international success. Why wouldn't the guys with a decade or more of experience in high profile matches be able to suitably beat up, arguably, a bunch of nobodies whose only claim to success is in a developmental facility? You wanted believability? THAT is believability.


----------



## Eva MaRIHyse (Jun 20, 2014)

birthday_massacre said:


> So I guess this real life example insults our intelligence too right
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The difference between pro wrestling and real life is fans expect the big guys to win. Big guys are presented as unstoppable, bigger, badder, tougher than the little guys.

And when it comes to "trained fighters" weight classes exist in combat sports for a reason. Every other Champion in the UFC might be more talented than Cain Velasquez, but thanks in large part to size he'd beat most of them handily until he gets to guys like Weidman and Jones who are his size.


----------



## RelivingTheShadow (Apr 25, 2013)

EvaMaryse said:


> The difference between pro wrestling and real life is fans expect the big guys to win. Big guys are presented as unstoppable, bigger, badder, tougher than the little guys.
> 
> And when it comes to "trained fighters" weight classes exist in combat sports for a reason. Every other Champion in the UFC might be more talented than Cain Velasquez, but thanks in large part to size he'd beat most of them handily until he gets to guys like Weidman and Jones who are his size.


Velasquez could beat all the champions, but he'd pull out with an injury before the fight so who cares.

No, but I agree, Balor just killing two guys like that made little sense. I was super confused watching it.



Kowalski's Killer said:


> Royce Gracie is six feet tall and 176 lbs and is possibly the toughest MMA fighter of all time. If size is all you want then go watch some Giant Gonzalez matches. They're fantastic.


Gracie was beating guys when no one knew a thing at all about BJJ, he's a horrible example.


----------



## Empress (Jun 24, 2014)

x78 said:


> Yeah, it was a really awkward segment. I get that they wanted Balor to come in and make an impact but overpowering Ascension like that was pretty stupid, especially because kayfabe nobody knows who this guy is, it isn't like Kenta who was brought in and hyped up as a Japanese legend and so looked credible fending off Ascension at Takeover 2.
> 
> NXT has been vanilla midget land anyway since Wyatt was called up and especially since the Network launched, I feel like a lot of what happens these days is aimed at appeasing retarded indy fans to attract Network subs. Makes sense from a business POV but hopefully it doesn't transfer to the main roster at any point in the future because this shit is pretty lame TBH.





Bring Back Russo said:


> *No it isn't. Do you think everyone would just let it slide if Rey Mysterio ran to the ring and made The Undertaker his bitch on his debut? It's unacceptable. I don't care how popular these guys were on the indies, it doesn't excuse them DOMINATING two huge men who ran the place for over a year. Methodically beat them? Sure, no one has a problem with that, but they came out, kicked the shit out of them for several minutes, and stood over them like they were nothing. Like someone said on the last page: that was the time to do a clothesline spot and knock them out of the ring or do some rope diving moves and have the Ascension retreat. Instead, they just looked like complete bitches and it's insulting to the viewer's intelligence.*


Agreed with all the points you've both made in this thread. Too many to quote. 

I'm a fan of the smaller guys and diverse sizes, but don't insult my intelligence in the process. The two of you covered much of what I would've posted.


----------



## Zero G (Nov 7, 2014)

It isn't about the height, never been about the height. It's about the look. CM Punk(6ft '2) is like an inch smaller than Batista(6ft '3), but you can see the massive difference in their looks/image. Pro-wrestling is not a legit sport and considering the current WWE where there is no mid-card or cruiser weight division, the presentation in wrestling is ten times more important now. 

What does those videos posted even prove? That a small guy can lucky once in a while in an un-coordinated street fight? Again, why is that a smaller guys in combat are always presumed to be extremely skilled in comparison to the big opponent who is again always presumed to be an "lumbering and weak" idiot? Why can't the big guy ever be skilled? People watch too much hollywood movies it seems. Reality, this is not the case. There is a reason Mayweather wouldn't fight heavyweights, there is a reason GSP doesn't fight heavyweights, because if they did, they would be beat and get exposed infront of the fans. Weight classes exist for a reason. 

But in the end all this internet talk about outcome of a real life fight is irrelevant, because in pro-wrestling what truly matters is who can draw more money. So it doesn't matter even if Devitt can kick Brock's ass in a fight because in the end Brock is the one who draws money for WWE. Its about that perception in the society, right or wrong, that makes it valid from a business standpoint. So unless you can go around convincing every single person from your friends to their friends, their parents, your neighbors to their neighbors, their families etc... and make them accept your viewpoint, all this talk about smaller guys prevailing in a fight is pretty much pointless. Throughout history, WWE as a wrestling promotion has shown enough evidence to figure out what the general audience expect from pro-wrestling. That needs to be protected by WWE, something that is not happening in this era anymore for whatever reason. 

And correct me If I'm wrong, wasn't Devitt a "junior heavyweight" champion in NJPW? Which is basically a middle-weight division equivalent of a mid-card title in WWE? So why is he coming in and dominating actual heavyweights? 

Whoever thinks looks don't matter in an entertainment/show business like WWE, is an absolutely moron. Period.


Even the Undertaker apparently hated working with Punk because of his look, Mark Madden talked about it recently...



> Eliminating kayfabe made everybody believe they could do it. As a result, everybody tried. As much as I appreciate the characters of Daniel Bryan and CM Punk, and as popular as they were, did they really increase business? Or did their size expose the business further, again crippling suspension of disbelief? A lot of veteran wrestlers think so. I’ve been told by several sources that Undertaker hated working with Punk. Nothing personal, but the size difference looked silly.
> 
> You have to believe it’s a fight, and you have to believe either guy can win. ‘Taker was the towering face. Punk was the tiny heel. How does ‘Taker look good? Where’s the payoff in that mismatch? ‘Taker = babyface bully. Contradictory.


http://www.wrestlingforum.com/gener...ated-working-punk-because-punk-too-small.html

It makes sense considering Taker hardly ever lost a feud to smaller guys, he'd ALWAYS win in the end and he would dominate 90% of the time.


----------



## hhhshovel (Apr 20, 2014)

wwe must be desperate to be hiring these vanilla midgets.


----------



## DemBoy (Dec 3, 2013)

hhhshovel said:


> wwe must be desperate to be hiring these vanilla midgets.


This type of trolling isn't annoying anymore, its just a sad awful attempt to stir shit up. Try something new and different.


----------



## THANOS (Jun 20, 2006)

EvaMaryse said:


> The difference between pro wrestling and real life is fans expect the big guys to win. Big guys are presented as unstoppable, bigger, badder, tougher than the little guys.
> 
> And when it comes to "trained fighters" weight classes exist in combat sports for a reason. Every other Champion in the UFC might be more talented than Cain Velasquez, but thanks in large part to size he'd beat most of them handily until he gets to guys like Weidman and Jones who are his size.


Yeah and the past few years since 2011, those same fans have been getting trained by WWE themselves, to learn that it's OK for big guys to lose to smaller guys, if said smaller guys are more skilled (Punk and Bryan). Whether you agree with that or not, is your preference, but it's still happening, and fans are supporting it since it's getting cheers and better ratings in respect to the rest of the show whenever it happens.

I beg you to try and counter that point.


----------



## Triforce (Nov 9, 2014)

This seems more of a hate thread rather then a logic thread...


----------



## THANOS (Jun 20, 2006)

Triforce said:


> This seems more of a hate thread rather then a logic thread...


With a lot of fans here, logic seems to go right out the window, but I digress.


----------



## Zero G (Nov 7, 2014)

"Better ratings" :LOL 

Punk is one of the lowest drawing champions in modern history. Bryan's entire push was a bust in terms of giving WWE's business a boost. Crowd reactions mean nothing if there's no money made from it. WWE had to run back to Cena, Brock, Rock everytime these guys fail.

Correct me If I'm wrong, aside from post-mania Raw, Batista's return still remains the highest rated Raw segment of 2014. Bryan's biggest crowd reaction to date inside the cage beating on Wyatts, didn't even come close to Batista's return. That says it all.


----------



## THANOS (Jun 20, 2006)

Zero G said:


> "Better ratings" :LOL
> 
> Punk is one of the lowest drawing champions in modern history. Bryan's entire push was a bust in terms of giving WWE's business a boost. Crowd reactions mean nothing if there's no money made from it. WWE had to run back to Cena, Brock, Rock everytime these guys fail.
> 
> Correct me If I'm wrong, aside from post-mania Raw, Batista's return still remains the highest rated Raw segment of 2014. Bryan's biggest crowd reaction to date inside the cage beating on Wyatts, didn't even come close to Batista's return. That says it all.


You have no clue what you're talking about, I suggest you actually go to the ratings thread and dissect the ratings by quarter so you can see how they actually did. You saying that Bryan's crowd reaction in the cage didn't surpass Batista's laughable quiet return segment is the most ridiculous thing I've read in this thread, and you deserve to banned on that blasphemy alone. By all means post both videos in here and you'll get laughed out even more. Hell I'll post, the legend, DDP's reaction to it, just so you backtrack even more.






As far as rating go as well, it took Punk a while to get there, but he got there, and Bryan has been drawing loads of viewers ever since they started pushing him to the mainevent of RAW, I beg you to look at the quarter ratings and prove me wrong (and not the overall ratings, because one man can't change that as we're seeing now).


----------



## 5 Star Giulia ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ (Apr 21, 2014)

THANOS said:


> As far as rating go as well, it took Punk a while to get there, but he got there, and Bryan has been drawing loads of viewers ever since they started pushing him to the mainevent of RAW, I beg you to look at the quarter ratings and prove be wrong (and not the overall ratings, because one man can't change that as we're seeing now).


*If you're attributing Punk's alleged ratings increase to the tail end of his title run, then I'm afraid I've got some BAAAD NEWSSSS! That honor belongs to the most electrifying man in Sports Entertainment:rock*


----------



## Loudness (Nov 14, 2011)

Bring Back Russo said:


> *If you're attributing Punk's alleged ratings increase to the tail end of his title run, then I'm afraid I've got some BAAAD NEWSSSS! That honor belongs to the most electrifying man in Sports Entertainment:rock*


I feel bad cause I'm still on recharge so I can't rep you back yet despite your posts beeing one on one with mines.

During the end of Punks run he was feuding with some bigtime names so of course these feuds would draw but they were not the only reason. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think he still kept that momentum Ratings-Wise even after that period. Some posters in the ratings section posted a Yearly Statistic (either 2012 or 2013, not even sure about that anymore) covering all quarter-hour segments a Wrestler was in and their drops/losses and Punk came out pretty well, think he was Nr.4 or something and that Graph was also including part-timers such as Brock, Rock, Taker (maybe, not sure since his appearances were limited) and Triple H among Cena so even if he was feuding with big Names at that point, he still made it pretty near to the Top in the Yearly Overall.

However that wasn't attributed due to his size and people need to stop pretending that smaller is better just because they're short/small themselves. Physically speaking there is no Advantage in that, these physiques are made to Go (well Punk wasn't exactly athletic but you get my point), not for Show and Wrestling is all about Show. There will always be people showing videos or naming smaller fighters to say that smaller is better, however you never see people posting vids of bigger guys owning smaller guys. Why? Because it's expected. You never hear big titted girls slandering small titted girls either, only the opposite because big-titted girls are secure about themselves whereas small titted are not and want to proof they are superior.

However does that mean they're automatically inferior or ugly? Nope. Just like smaller Wrestlers aren't automatically inferior to bigger Wrestlers. There's a niche for everything and everybody and WWE, beeing presented as a Mainstream Show tries to cover all styles and cater to all kinds of people so that even the shorties feel validated, and I don't mean that in a hateful way either because there's tons of Wrestlers validating the (less rare, yet idealistic) taller, bigger guys aswell, it's just what it is. You don't see 200lbs guys Gorilla Pressing Mark Henry just like you don't see 300lbs guys doing Shooting Star Presses...err mostly.

Where's the Show part I mentioned before in smaller Wrestlers? Like I said their acrobatism, athleticism and their down-to-Earth Nature since statistically there's more short than tall people they have an advantage at getting more people to relate to them. Of course people still want that Wow-Factor but if a guy is a great talent and small and not a Genetic Freak such as Bryan he sends a very positive message to common people. They can relate to him and also imagine going one on one with the Giant Greats such as Show, Taker, Kane. You also have Harper and Rowan losing pretty often in believeable ways with good ring-psychology which makes the whole thing even realistic and believable, which is awesome and should be the Story behind every good Wrestling match.

What annoys me is the whole big vs small talk. I draw the line when I see people sounding like they are taking drugs for a Napoleon Complex always comparing "unskilled big cow vs totally awesome small guy" when that's simply not what the WWE wants to represent unless we're talking Giants like Big Show or Khali, and even Big Show is presented as a legit Athlete. WWE is supposed to be the place where the best Wrestlers meet which means you have the best big Wrestlers and the best small Wrestlers in the Company. If a small Wrestler gets pushed ahead of a bigger one, it's not because of his size but his talent. Charisma, Mic skills, ring skills, character, personality, crowd Connection - those are the things that really matter. And Truth of the matter is, there's both small and big guys that fit that mold...and no matter how much somebody hates big or small guys, these guys will always be present because WWE is all about diversity and that's how it should be.

Sorry for a needlessy long post you gotta read though lol, sometimes I just get ahead of myself.


----------



## ozzyanson (Mar 19, 2014)

Loudness said:


> .......Sorry for a needlessy long post you gotta read though lol, sometimes I just get ahead of myself.


You are dangerously close to bringing sense back to the thread. I agree - size is generally an advantage but it's far from the only thing that makes for success. And the big guys can provide a target for the smaller ones if the storyline is well planned.
In the case of Balor/Itami and The Ascension, I don't think it was well planned enough


----------



## Loudness (Nov 14, 2011)

ozzyanson said:


> You are dangerously close to bringing sense back to the thread. I agree - size is generally an advantage but it's far from the only thing that makes for success. And the big guys can provide a target for the smaller ones if the storyline is well planned.
> In the case of Balor/Itami and The Ascension, I don't think it was well planned enough


You know something is wrong when the biggest *Scott Steiner* mark on this board is beeing considered the rational one when it comes to Size in Wrestling discussions. Let that sink in for a minute.


----------



## elhijodelbodallas (Jan 30, 2014)

WCWR said:


> I can. Hell, I grew up on Cruiserweight Division wrestling in the mid-to-late 90s in WCW. Also, Itami and Balor are touted as international superstars with international success. Why wouldn't the guys with a decade or more of experience in high profile matches be able to suitably beat up, arguably, a bunch of nobodies whose only claim to success is in a developmental facility? You wanted believability? THAT is believability.


Except that's not the story being told here, at all. The Ascension are promoted as destructive beasts and Itami and Bálor are promoted as international superstars who have been wrestling in companies where the level of competition is not as high as it is in WWE. If your logic was the story being told here then I wouldn't have a problem with it but it is not, so all that's left is two small guys beating up two bigger, more credible guys with ease.

Plus their dropkicks in the corner looked like crap.


----------



## validreasoning (Jul 4, 2012)

Bring Back Russo said:


> *If you're attributing Punk's alleged ratings increase to the tail end of his title run, then I'm afraid I've got some BAAAD NEWSSSS! That honor belongs to the most electrifying man in Sports Entertainment:rock*


actually its more to do with the fact it entered january and no longer had to go against mnf which so far has killed the 3 hour raw. rock returns the other week only drew a 2.6 and only a 2.2 in the 18-49 demo. no rock this year and raw went from averaging 3.9 million viewers in december to 4.62 million in january 

anyway why do we need to compare bryan and punk with rock and batista (who they built up returning for more than a month every 2 minutes). why not compare bryan and punk with the full time roster members that wwe have pushed hard last 2-3 years like orton, sheamus, del rio, reigns and see how they compare. of all the guys wwe have pushed since 2005 every one of the biggest draws ie edge, jeff hardy, mysterio, bryan and punk would have been considered light-heavyweights in wwe in years gone by

punks only been gone about 1/4 of the time that batista was and i bet if wwe started running punk return videos every 2 minutes on raw in december for a month his return in january would do very similar to batistas return numbers.


----------



## Mr. I (Nov 23, 2012)

Zero G said:


> "Better ratings" :LOL
> 
> Punk is one of the lowest drawing champions in modern history. *Bryan's entire push was a bust in terms of giving WWE's business a boost. Crowd reactions mean nothing if there's no money made from it*. WWE had to run back to Cena, Brock, Rock everytime these guys fail.
> 
> Correct me If I'm wrong, aside from post-mania Raw, Batista's return still remains the highest rated Raw segment of 2014. *Bryan's biggest crowd reaction to date inside the cage beating on Wyatts, didn't even come close to Batista's return*. That says it all.


Yeah, that's a lie. Bryan was the top ratings draw by 2014, MORE in fact than Cena around WM time, and the number two merch seller (more than Orton, Punk, Batista, etc). WM 30 headlined by him did a very good buyrate.
And the crowd reaction for Batista's return was crap, part in thanks to WWE's structuring of the segment.

I'm going to turn your own claim on you, also. One popped rating (as Batista got) means nothing when his ratings drawing power disappeared within two weeks, and Bryan remained their best ratings draw consistently.

So yes, you're corrected.


----------



## DemBoy (Dec 3, 2013)

Zero G said:


> "Better ratings" :LOL
> 
> Punk is one of the lowest drawing champions in modern history. Bryan's entire push was a bust in terms of giving WWE's business a boost. Crowd reactions mean nothing if there's no money made from it. WWE had to run back to Cena, Brock, Rock everytime these guys fail.
> 
> Correct me If I'm wrong, aside from post-mania Raw, Batista's return still remains the highest rated Raw segment of 2014. Bryan's biggest crowd reaction to date inside the cage beating on Wyatts, didn't even come close to Batista's return. That says it all.


:LOL Batista getting a bigger crowd reaction than Bryan at the cage. :LOL :LOL :LOL


----------



## Taker-Tribute-Act (May 1, 2006)

Yeah, Finn Balor, former face of Armani Exchange, looks like a college geek. Try harder.


----------



## I Ship Sixon (Oct 20, 2013)

I am fan of Kenta and Devitt but they do look funny coming to the ring together :booklel


----------



## Bushmaster (Sep 28, 2010)

:lmao the same people crying about "indy" guys. It's 2014 and people still complain about smaller guys beating bigger guys up.


----------



## Interceptor88 (May 5, 2010)

My problem is not with smaller wrestlers(I wouldn't say "midgets" because in real life those guys are not short), but with smaller wrestlers' character being just "one hell of a wrestler". They need something more.


----------



## Geeee (Aug 9, 2010)

I really don't get the point of this thread. Even fucking El Torito has had segments where he's beaten the crap out of much bigger guys. When these teams have an actual match, The Ascension will dominate most of the action. They just wanted Balor to have a strong debut.


----------



## DemBoy (Dec 3, 2013)

Geeee said:


> I really don't get the point of this thread. Even fucking El Torito has had segments where he's beaten the crap out of much bigger guys. When these teams have an actual match, The Ascension will dominate most of the action. They just wanted Balor to have a strong debut.


According to someone in this thread, it was a "intelligence insulting" debut.


----------



## Sam Fisher 2014 (Oct 24, 2014)

Ithil said:


> *Yeah, that's a lie.* *Bryan was the top ratings draw by 2014, MORE in fact than Cena around WM time,* and the number two merch seller (more than Orton, *Punk*, Batista, etc). *WM 30 headlined by him did a very good buyrate.*
> And the crowd reaction for Batista's return was crap, part in thanks to WWE's structuring of the segment.
> 
> I'm going to turn your own claim on you, also. *One popped rating (as Batista got) means nothing when his ratings drawing power disappeared within two weeks, and Bryan remained their best ratings draw consistently.*
> ...


This is simply NOT true.LOL.Trying to sound cool,eh?.Stop reaching.Classic over-rating.Bryan getting over-rated again.

1)WMXXX had the worst buys in over a decade.Last time,things looked so bleak,Chris Benoit was at the helm winning the belt at WM. WMXXX is touted as a major failure financially, considering the very low international buys which serves as the popularity indicator to Daniel Bryan. Attendance figures doesnt matter when you have 3 GOATS tipped to be on the show together.
Of course now other factors like HHH,Batista,Cena,Taker,Brock and many others drawing power suddenly takes centrestage while Bryan's drawing power is given a break. WM 2004 profits = WM 2014 profits. Compared to last year,this year WM was a major letdown,financially. Feel free to counter facts with your excuses.

2)Lol at Batista's drawing power fading away after 2 weeks while Bryan remained a consistent draw.
http://www.wrestlezone.com/news/522977-wwe-raw-viewership-2013-vs-2014-analysis
Anybody could have taken Bryan's spot.YES chants didnt bring a spike in ratings or the business for that matter.
Again,feel free to counter facts with excuses.

3)There was an article couple of months back which claimed Cena still draws 60k$(I think)on average more than his nearest competitor in WWE.Google to check out. Bryan is far away from the draw you're making him out to be. Again,I'm pretty sure you'll have something to counter with excuses only. So much for the YES chants.

4)http://whatculture.com/wwe/wwe-analysis-daniel-bryan-weaker-live-event-draw-john-cena.php
Again, feel free to counter with your excuses.

So guess who stands corrected now? The fact of the matter is that Bryan's drawing ability is negligible and is usually blown out of proportion by his marks.

Of course, feel free to counter facts with your irrelevant excuses.


----------



## Mr. I (Nov 23, 2012)

> 1)WMXXX had the worst buys in over a decade.Last time,things looked so bleak,Chris Benoit was at the helm winning the belt at WM. WMXXX is touted as a major failure financially, considering the very low international buys which serves as the popularity indicator to Daniel Bryan. Attendance figures doesnt matter when you have 3 GOATS tipped to be on the show together.
> Of course now other factors like HHH,Batista,Cena,Taker,Brock and many others drawing power suddenly takes centrestage while Bryan's drawing power is given a break. WM 2004 profits = WM 2014 profits. Compared to last year,this year WM was a major letdown,financially. Feel free to counter facts with your excuses.












Please use your brain.

Also, I never claimed Bryan was a bigger draw than Cena. Cena has been on top for 9 years, pushed as the be all and end all. Bryan got his semi-serious push less than a year ago. You are braindead if you thought he was going to draw more at house shows which are primarily casual fans. Becoming that kind of a draw takes years and years, as it did for Cena.
Also, wrestling is cold in the US and has been for years, overall ratings are worthless per individual. Look at quarters, not show ratings. Bryan's in WM season were consistently the highest along with Cena's.


----------



## just1988 (Jun 15, 2009)

*Hey OP, Hulk Hogan bodyslammed Andre the Giant...27 years ago and NOW you're complaining about a lack of believability.*


----------



## Sam Fisher 2014 (Oct 24, 2014)

Ithil said:


> Please use your brain.
> 
> Also, I never claimed Bryan was a bigger draw than Cena. Cena has been on top for 9 years, pushed as the be all and end all. Bryan got his semi-serious push less than a year ago. You are braindead if you thought he was going to draw more at house shows which are primarily casual fans. Becoming that kind of a draw takes years and years, as it did for Cena.
> Also, wrestling is cold in the US and has been for years, overall ratings are worthless per individual. Look at quarters, not show ratings. Bryan's in WM season were consistently the highest along with Cena's.


I'm using my brain cells to do the thinking here,my dear friend. I'm well aware of WWE network's impact but you're being ignorant of the fact that WWE network wasnt launched outside US during WMXXX season. People outside US had to rely on PPV buys alone. I guess I've made myself pretty clear in my previous input of Bryan's negligible impact on WMXXX (financial aspect) and coupled with your excuses,I am not surprised here. 

As for Bryan not drawing at house shows because of casual fans,it is laughable as are the rest of your excuses. So people only want Bryan to see on RAWs? People who were so vociferous in chanting YES YES on RAW,pretty much never cared to see him on house shows? Is that what you saying? That hurts.

I never said Bryan wasnt a draw. He is a draw. His drawing ability is however greatly exaggerated as it is evident by the facts I've posted which are not in your favor and predictably you've countered them with nothing but irrelevant excuses. Next time you feel the itch to over-rate Bryan's drawing ability when someone downplays Bryan, I urge you to please get a grip on yourself.Seth Rollins/Ambrose are probably getting high and I mean high individual quarter hour ratings right now which Bryan would have gotten if he was an active wrestler on RAW,considering overall numbers havent changed that much.period.Bryan's drawing ability is negligible and his impact on TV is minimal and that's what numbers show.


----------



## Mr. I (Nov 23, 2012)

If you really think no one outside the US had the Network this whole time, you need to do some more reading. 

And stop saying everything you say is "facts". It's laughable.


----------



## elhijodelbodallas (Jan 30, 2014)

Geeee said:


> I really don't get the point of this thread. Even fucking El Torito has had segments where he's beaten the crap out of much bigger guys. When these teams have an actual match, The Ascension will dominate most of the action. They just wanted Balor to have a strong debut.


El Torito has never beaten the crap out of anybody outside of Hornswoggle. All he does is a flying headscissors and then the Matadores come in and take care of the rest. You have never seen Torito dominate a full sized wrestler.


----------



## birthday_massacre (Jan 30, 2013)

EvaMaryse said:


> The difference between pro wrestling and real life is fans expect the big guys to win. Big guys are presented as unstoppable, bigger, badder, tougher than the little guys.
> 
> And when it comes to "trained fighters" weight classes exist in combat sports for a reason. Every other Champion in the UFC might be more talented than Cain Velasquez, but thanks in large part to size he'd beat most of them handily until he gets to guys like Weidman and Jones who are his size.


So you don't think everyone in the bar or in that group thought those little guys were going to get their asses kicked?

You really have no clue what you are talking about. Fans DONT EXPECT IN WRESTLING the big guys to alway win.
How many years have you been watching wrestling FFS? The little guy wins A LOT.

If the bigger guys always won there would be no point in even watching wrestling matches.

Some of you are using some of the worse logic, I have ever seen

Like I said before, Oh I guess Rocky never should have beaten Dragon then.
Or Daniel Laurso never should have gotten to the finals and beaten Johnny.
Or in that movie the warrior the school teacher never should have beaten all those legit UFC fighters nor his brother.

Come on now.


----------



## birthday_massacre (Jan 30, 2013)

Dreamcast99 said:


> Kayfabe is dead. But, that doesn't mean the next step is to piss on the grave and burn down the whole cemetery.


You mean like Hogan slamming and beating Andre?
Like Flair beating Vader?
Backland being Hart for the WWF title
Hell anyone Mysterio beat that was bigger than him which was pretty much EVERYONE


----------



## Sam Fisher 2014 (Oct 24, 2014)

Ithil said:


> If you really think no one outside the US had the Network this whole time, you need to do some more *reading.*
> 
> And stop saying everything you say is "facts". It's laughable.


Please read.


> WWE Network is a subscription-based video streaming service owned by WWE, using the infrastructure of Major League Baseball Advanced Media.[2] The concept was originally announced in 2012. On January 8, 2014, WWE announced the network would launch on February 24 *in the United States*. The company *stated on July 31* that the service was expected to go live in Australia, *Canada*, New Zealand, Hong Kong, Singapore, Mexico, Spain and the Nordics, among other countries starting on August 12.[3]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WWE_Network

Also

http://www.ewrestlingnews.com/news/...ional-today-a-full-list-of-countries-revealed

The date of WMXXX? What did I say about international buys?

Right.

Yes,I'm right and you're ill-informed.


----------



## elhijodelbodallas (Jan 30, 2014)

Sam Fisher 2014 said:


> Please read.
> 
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WWE_Network
> ...


fpalm just fpalm

Ever heard of a VPN?

fpalm


----------



## Flashyelbow (Mar 3, 2014)

elhijodelbodallas said:


> fpalm just fpalm
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You beat me to him was just about to put that!


Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App


----------



## Mr. I (Nov 23, 2012)

Sam Fisher 2014 said:


> Please read.
> 
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WWE_Network
> ...


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proxy_server


----------



## Sam Fisher 2014 (Oct 24, 2014)

elhijodelbodallas said:


> fpalm just fpalm
> 
> Ever heard of a VPN?
> 
> fpalm





Flashyelbow said:


> You beat me to him was just about to put that!
> 
> 
> Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App





Ithil said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proxy_server


Very good excuses. LOL.

VPN. Before that "streaming". PPVs were streamed by people even before WWE Network was aired. Wrong? Tell me something which I dont know?

Funny shit.


----------



## Chris JeriG.O.A.T (Jun 17, 2014)

The believability in wrestling debate is interesting: on one hand you can say wrestling was never believable and cite Undertaker and Kane and shit like that but isn't part of the reason people dislike Cena because he isn't a believable underdog; isn't the reason everyone dick rides Brock because he's the only believable tough guy? 

When does/should believability matter? Could El Torito squash Big Show? Torito's far more skilled.


----------



## Mr. I (Nov 23, 2012)

Sam Fisher 2014 said:


> Very good excuses. LOL.
> 
> VPN. Before that "streaming". PPVs were streamed by people even before WWE Network was aired. Wrong? Tell me something which I dont know?
> 
> Funny shit.


Enough with the "excuses" horseshit. The buyrates for WWE PPVs outside USA plummeted after the Network came out in the USA. Likewise the international buys after the WWE Network actually launched were minimal.
The reason for this is a large number of the WWE subscriptions were international from the start.

It's extremely trivial to get around the geographical difference.


----------



## Sam Fisher 2014 (Oct 24, 2014)

Ithil said:


> *Enough with the "excuses" horseshit.* The buyrates for WWE PPVs outside USA plummeted after the Network came out in the USA. Likewise the international buys after the WWE Network actually launched were minimal.
> The *reason* for this is a *large number* of the WWE subscriptions *were international from the start*.
> 
> It's extremely trivial to get around the geographical difference.


Are you even aware of the implications of your assumptions?

Tells people to cease with the "excuses" horseshit.Goes on to make more assumptions to back up his excuses.

Need I say more?

We have already diverted the main topic.

Stick to discussing "Skilled smaller wrestlers can beat lumbering gaint wrestlers" and stay away from over-rating Daniel Bryan's drawing power. It is negligible. Being Ill-informed and displaying ignorance are not one and the same,now is it?

Back to the main topic.


----------



## Mr. I (Nov 23, 2012)

Sam Fisher 2014 said:


> Are you even aware of the implications of your assumptions?
> 
> Tells people to cease with the "excuses" horseshit.Goes on to make more assumptions to back up his excuses.
> 
> ...


Those are not "assumptions" you idiot, they are conclusions. Not the same thing. Let me quote the Wrestling Observer:



> If anything, that made clear, as has the decline in PPV buys outside the U.S. when the network supposedly wasn’t available in all those countries, that a large percentage of the so-called U.S. audience included much of the hardcore international fan base. One person with inside knowledge of the project told us months ago that it would become clear how much of the international fan base was already getting it after the launch (at the time scheduled for later this year or early next year) would end up netting very little increase. There are key markets, most notably the U.K., as well as much of Canada, which are the WWE’s No. 2 and No. 3 markets, where the network is not officially available. However, the decline in international PPVs, Night of Champions doing only 18,000 buys outside North America, despite the network not being available in numerous PPV countries, tells us that most people all over the world who want it already have it.


Which has been reporting the international users of the Network since the buyrates for the Post-WM 30 PPVs came out.

Also, the claim was that "Bryan's entire push had been a bust" which was complete bullshit.


----------



## TWFMox (Nov 9, 2014)

Yawn. #2


----------



## deathslayer (Feb 19, 2013)

I agree.


----------



## elhijodelbodallas (Jan 30, 2014)

Look Sam Fisher 2014, I don't give a fuck about your argument with Ithil and if Bryan is a draw or not. All I know is you made a post telling Ithil he was a moron because nobody outside the US could get the WWE Network, which is obviously wrong. This is not an excuse, you simply said something factually wrong yet you refuse to admit your mistake.


----------



## Stanford (Jul 6, 2011)

Zero G said:


> Maybe this midget shit gets over in Japan(even this is debatable considering the current pathetic state of Jap wrestling scene)


Is this true? I thought pro wrestling was doing well in Japan right now.


----------



## Flashyelbow (Mar 3, 2014)

Stanford said:


> Is this true? I thought pro wrestling was doing well in Japan right now.



He's lying it's really good right now.


Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App


----------



## Alden Heathcliffe (Nov 15, 2012)

Oh please, try a little harder.


----------



## Sam Fisher 2014 (Oct 24, 2014)

Ithil said:


> Those are not "assumptions" you idiot, they are conclusions. Not the same thing. Let me quote the Wrestling Observer:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Are you this dense? You're making a mockery of common sense,my friend. 

What you quoted is Meltzer's personal opinion which isnt based on any factual inference of numbers or statistics but straight up assumptions based on his dubious sources claiming so and so due to so and so without any factual data to back up his assumptions. Nothing but vanilla excuses.
The funny theme that seems to be running with you here is to accept data which you like and reject data which you dont like by coughing up more and more crooked excuses.
#VanillaExcuses

Moreover this should have seriously ticked your braincells to do the thinking because it is factually incorrect.
WWE Night of Champions PPV was in September.WWE network was already launched internationally in August which begs every right thinking individual to question the veracity of the article. 



> However, the decline in international PPVs, Night of Champions doing only 18,000 buys outside North America, despite the network not being available in numerous PPV countries,





> Look Sam Fisher 2014, I don't give a fuck about your argument with Ithil and if Bryan is a draw or not. All I know is you made a post telling Ithil he was a moron because nobody outside the US could get the WWE Network, which is obviously wrong. This is not an excuse, you simply said something factually wrong yet you refuse to admit your mistake.


Nice try.

So people were going to cough up more money for a secure, stable VPN connection just to gain access to Network when they could have gotten it all for free which was pretty much the norm all these years. Right.


Nice try,really.

Back to the main topic.


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## p862011 (Jan 6, 2011)

it does'nt matter how big or small you are if you have charisma wwe will push you

look at drew McIntyre - 6'5 240 pounds,good looking guy but he had the mic skills,charisma and personality of a door knob and he was'nt pushed because of it and wwe tried

then look at daniel bryan 5'8 200 pounds and got the loudest pops since stone cold steve austin

charisma and audience connection will always beat size


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## elhijodelbodallas (Jan 30, 2014)

Sam Fisher 2014 said:


> Moreover this should have seriously ticked your braincells to do the thinking because it is factually incorrect.
> WWE Night of Champions PPV was in September.WWE network was already launched internationally in August which begs every right thinking individual to question the veracity of the article.
> 
> Nice try.
> ...


1 - WWE Network is not available in the UK and many parts of Canada. Those are the two biggest WWE markets outside of the US.

2 - Yes, many people bought a VPN to get the network. I'm surprised you didn't hear of this until now. And this is not an assumption, this is fact. It may be hard for you to believe but there are people in this world who actually pay for the things they like to watch.


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## Sam Fisher 2014 (Oct 24, 2014)

elhijodelbodallas said:


> 1 - WWE Network is not available in the UK and many parts of Canada. Those are the two biggest WWE markets outside of the US.
> 
> 2 - Yes, many people bought a VPN to get the network. I'm surprised you didn't hear of this until now. And this is not an assumption, this is fact. It may be hard for you to believe but there are people in this world who actually pay for the things they like to watch.


Yeah,right.

#VanillaExcuses
#smh


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## Mr. I (Nov 23, 2012)

Sam Fisher 2014 said:


> Yeah,right.
> 
> #VanillaExcuses
> #smh


Great stuff. "Nu-uh!".


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## Lexrules (Apr 3, 2014)

Zero G said:


> Itami and Balor, two short dudes who look like college geeks completely burying Ascension and standing tall over their beaten bodies? Where is the believability? Pro-wrestling is all about believability. Entire beat down looked so awkward and phony out there, with Konnor and Viktor trying to sell those punches. Maybe this midget shit gets over in Japan(even this is debatable considering the current pathetic state of Jap wrestling scene, and Bob Sapp being a huge star with nothing but his looks) but WWE is not Japan in anyway, its the land of giants. This will only get laughed at, if mainstream american fans ever saw it.
> 
> Its WRESTLING for fuck sake, its a spectacle sport, looks absolutely DOES matter. Why are we even expected to appreciate some average looking dudes, that you can bump into walking down on the streets fight against each other? I don't watch WWE for that, that's not the point of a sport like wrestling. Midgets lack believability because of their size, not their fault and I understand them getting these opportunities on top, but as a fan I'm not willing to sacrifice the fun of watching a spectacle sport like wrestling just so these people can main event. They just don't belong in that spot.
> 
> ...


You show all the signs of being a WWE fan instead of a Pro Wrestling fan. I suggest 50 hours of NJPW, ROH, PWG, and whatever wrestling promotion that actually puts WRESTLING first to cure your ailment.


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## p862011 (Jan 6, 2011)

you know what i say?about damn time

for the past several decades we as pro wrestling fans have been force fed 6'6 muscle bound talentless hacks like kevin nash,lex luger,batista,goldberg bobby lashley,psycho sid,etc. who were pushed because they were tall or had some muscles

abuot time wwe realizes it is time to push the most talented pro wrestler


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## THANOS (Jun 20, 2006)

p862011 said:


> you know what i say?about damn time
> 
> for the past several decades we as pro wrestling fans have been force fed 6'6 muscle bound talentless hacks like kevin nash,lex luger,batista,goldberg bobby lashley,psycho sid,etc. who were pushed because they were tall or had some muscles
> 
> abuot time wwe realizes it is time to push the most talented pro wrestler


:clap totally agree man! I've never gravitated to people getting pushes based solely on their "look" or "size", as those things mean absolutely nothing to my entertainment. The fact that some men watch wrestling, and are only entertained by sitting back and appreciating male bodies, draws up plenty of questions about their sexual preference.

"The look," in wrestling, is a synonym for "the lust". And apparantely some people get that tingly feeling when someone fitting that description pops up on their screen. In other words, they "pop up" as well.


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## BehindYou (Jun 16, 2011)

THANOS said:


> The fact that some men watch wrestling, and are only entertained by sitting back and appreciating male bodies, draws up plenty of questions about their sexual preference.
> 
> "The look," in wrestling, is a synonym for "the lust". And apparantely some people get that tingly feeling when someone fitting that description pops up on their screen. In other words, they "pop up" as well.


 So after pages of debate you make everything you said totally pointless with a "gays lol" comment?


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## THANOS (Jun 20, 2006)

BehindYou said:


> So after pages of debate you make everything you said totally pointless with a "gays lol" comment?


I've already said my points thoughout this thread, at this point I don't care to elaborate more. If you had read through the thread you would have seen that. And "lol gay" is probably some of it, because if you're not watching to be entertained by actual talent and skill, why watch? The storylines certainly aren't great and haven't been for ages.


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## Jaysfromnyc (Sep 4, 2009)

Yeah, lets see more of Big Show v. Mark Henry that makes crowds go silent or lets see Titus O'Neill put on more snoozefests. Size shouldn't matter, only entertaining characters, stories and performances should matter. Yet, some fans and people who make talent signing decisions for WWE still don't get it and are out of touch. The 1980's are over. 

The people from outside wrestling who are signed based on size and look are the ones who are actually all the same and not just in terms of look. These amateur wrestlers don't know how to be anything other than generic versions of Kurt Angle, Brock Lesnar or Haas and Benjamin. These footballers are the same thing just doing their redundant squash match characters.

In the past ten years most of these types fail 9 times out of ten.


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## Drago (Jul 29, 2014)

Zero G said:


> Itami and Balor, two short dudes who look like college geeks completely burying Ascension and standing tall over their beaten bodies? Where is the believability? Pro-wrestling is all about believability. Entire beat down looked so awkward and phony out there, with Konnor and Viktor trying to sell those punches. Maybe this midget shit gets over in Japan(even this is debatable considering the current pathetic state of Jap wrestling scene, and Bob Sapp being a huge star with nothing but his looks) but WWE is not Japan in anyway, its the land of giants. This will only get laughed at, if mainstream american fans ever saw it.
> 
> Its WRESTLING for fuck sake, its a spectacle sport, looks absolutely DOES matter. Why are we even expected to appreciate some average looking dudes, that you can bump into walking down on the streets fight against each other? I don't watch WWE for that, that's not the point of a sport like wrestling. Midgets lack believability because of their size, not their fault and I understand them getting these opportunities on top, but as a fan I'm not willing to sacrifice the fun of watching a spectacle sport like wrestling just so these people can main event. They just don't belong in that spot.
> 
> ...


Truer words have never been spoken #dalook


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## The Assassin (IVV) (Apr 18, 2014)

Jesus, the IWC never stops complaining. WWE has been ridiculed for years for pushing (and rightfully so) for pushing talentless and generic bodybuilders like Batista and now that they deviated away from that approach, the IWC is complaining again. And since when was Pro Wrestling about believability? They have deadman gimmicks, people using weapons that could kill soembody in a real fight and you think WWE shouldn't push small guys since it's not believable??


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## Satanixx (Jul 30, 2008)

I've literally beat the piss out of guys 2-3x my size.

Just cause you're huge doesn't make you some Billy Badass who can take out anyone you want.

Welcome to the Reality Era OP.


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## hhhshovel (Apr 20, 2014)

i dont see how bland short ppl got a job at a high class place like wwe. like batista said, what happened to all the real men?


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## papercuts_hurt (Mar 21, 2013)

The Assassin (IVV) said:


> And since when was Pro Wrestling about believability? They have deadman gimmicks, people using weapons that could kill soembody in a real fight and you think WWE shouldn't push small guys since it's not believable??


The funny thing about this is that the reason why people think this way is because WWE themselves has basically conditioned them to since they started watching. "This guy is the scarred brother of an undead funeral parlor worker, that guy got dropped 15 feet from a forklift while inside his car and didn't get seriously injured, but a 200 pound guy beating a 275 pound guy? That's fucking absurd!" That's what we have been shown. Honestly it's not even just WWE, in NJPW for instance juniors are presented as being in a class below the heavyweights and almost never beat them (although they are not as guilty of the ridiculous other shit so it is more excusable there).

To be fair though I don't think WWE thinks so much this way anymore, they will always favor bigger guys over littler guys but they present it as no problem that Seth Rollins can hang with anyone, he would have been classed as a cruiserweight back in the day, Dbry too although it took him longer to reach that status and presentation. I think that when Neville and Zayn are brought up they will also be presented strongly and their size won't be an issue other than that they will never get that "chosen one" push...but barely anyone gets that anyway.


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## Mr. I (Nov 23, 2012)

The Assassin (IVV) said:


> Jesus, the IWC never stops complaining. WWE has been ridiculed for years for pushing (and rightfully so) for pushing talentless and generic bodybuilders like Batista and now that they deviated away from that approach, the IWC is complaining again. And since when was Pro Wrestling about believability? They have deadman gimmicks, people using weapons that could kill soembody in a real fight and you think WWE shouldn't push small guys since it's not believable??


It's almost like "The IWC" is a worthless, vague term that doesn't represent any unified opinions or views, or something.


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## El_Absoluto (Nov 30, 2011)

Punk vs Lesnar its a great example how to work a small guy vs monster match. The big guy is obviously stronger, but the short guy must use counterattacks and speed to buy him time to make big risk moves that might actually hurt the larger guy.

Its not impossible and it works for great storytelling. Now I haven't seen the segment OP is bitchin about, but Im guessing he is just trolling and whants big show vs Khali to main event WM.


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## p862011 (Jan 6, 2011)

El_Absoluto said:


> Punk vs Lesnar its a great example how to work a small guy vs monster match. The big guy is obviously stronger, *but the short guy *must use counterattacks and speed to buy him time to make big risk moves that might actually hurt the larger guy.
> 
> Its not impossible and it works for great storytelling. Now I haven't seen the segment OP is bitchin about, but Im guessing he is just trolling and whants big show vs Khali to main event WM.


cm punk is 6'1 and same height as john cena and triple h hardly call him short


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## Aficionado (Jul 16, 2008)

Zero G said:


> WWE needs to completely move away from this midgets-standing-tall-in-the-main-event phase and go back to their roots, when wrestling was all about charismatic larger than life figures.
> 
> Am I the only one who feels this way?


And here I thought there was part of me that had to suspend belief in order to be a wrestling fan. You obviously take this very seriously. If you would like to relive the past, you could always subscribe to their network.

I must have missed the memo that changes the definition of midget from "an extremely small person having normal physical proportions" to "people of average to above average height who happen to be in good shape". If the guys you are clamoring for are "larger than life", a better way to describe guys like Itami and Bálor would be something like "close to real life".


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## Andy Miami (Jul 9, 2012)

Zero G said:


> Itami and Balor, two short dudes who look like college geeks completely burying Ascension and standing tall over their beaten bodies? Where is the believability? Pro-wrestling is all about believability. Entire beat down looked so awkward and phony out there, with Konnor and Viktor trying to sell those punches. Maybe this midget shit gets over in Japan(even this is debatable considering the current pathetic state of Jap wrestling scene, and Bob Sapp being a huge star with nothing but his looks) but WWE is not Japan in anyway, its the land of giants. This will only get laughed at, if mainstream american fans ever saw it.
> 
> Its WRESTLING for fuck sake, its a spectacle sport, looks absolutely DOES matter. Why are we even expected to appreciate some average looking dudes, that you can bump into walking down on the streets fight against each other? I don't watch WWE for that, that's not the point of a sport like wrestling. Midgets lack believability because of their size, not their fault and I understand them getting these opportunities on top, but as a fan I'm not willing to sacrifice the fun of watching a spectacle sport like wrestling just so these people can main event. They just don't belong in that spot.
> 
> ...


Times have changed, even in MMA a person like big foot silva who's 6'4 264pounds legitimately broke even with Mark Hunt who's 5'10 265lbs. Size doesn't matter any more to be believable you mark. And besides what makes you think wrestling should be about believability anymore anyway, it should be quite evident that wrestling is scripted.


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## MP92 (Jul 7, 2014)

You're not the only one. Unfortunately, a lot of wrestling fans today are geeks who cheer for other geeks like Daniel Bryan. Makes them feel better about themselves I guess. Makes them think they could be a wrestler too. Look, presence and believability is a big part of wrestling. Always will be. 

Half these dudes in NXT look like they should be delivering pizzas.


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## THANOS (Jun 20, 2006)

MP92 said:


> You're not the only one. Unfortunately, a lot of wrestling fans today are geeks who cheer for other geeks like Daniel Bryan. Makes them feel better about themselves I guess. Makes them think they could be a wrestler too. Look, presence and believability is a big part of wrestling. Always will be.
> 
> Half these dudes in NXT look like they should be delivering pizzas.


Embarrassing post. Since when does an average size human with muscular definition become synonymous with a pizza delivery man? 

Also, you're posting on a wrestling forum, you have zero credibility to call ANYONE on here a geek.


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## DemBoy (Dec 3, 2013)

THANOS said:


> Embarrassing post. Since when does an average size human with muscular definition become synonymous with a pizza delivery man?
> 
> Also, you're posting on a wrestling forum, you have zero credibility to call ANYONE on here a geek.


He thinks the pizza delivery guys that appear on porn scenes are for realsies.


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## BornBad (Jan 27, 2004)

wonder who will be the bigger draw...


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## DemBoy (Dec 3, 2013)

BornBad said:


> wonder who will be the bigger draw...


None.


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## Kloppo (Sep 26, 2014)

yeah man, Vince lost his balls and Triple H only pushes indy guys because his Performance Center is a fail and he needs to save his ass somehow.


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## The5star_Kid (Mar 4, 2013)

Zero G said:


> Itami and Balor, two short dudes who look like college geeks completely burying Ascension and standing tall over their beaten bodies? Where is the believability? Pro-wrestling is all about believability. Entire beat down looked so awkward and phony out there, with Konnor and Viktor trying to sell those punches. Maybe this midget shit gets over in Japan(even this is debatable considering the current pathetic state of Jap wrestling scene, and Bob Sapp being a huge star with nothing but his looks) but WWE is not Japan in anyway, its the land of giants. This will only get laughed at, if mainstream american fans ever saw it.
> 
> Its WRESTLING for fuck sake, its a spectacle sport, looks absolutely DOES matter. Why are we even expected to appreciate some average looking dudes, that you can bump into walking down on the streets fight against each other? I don't watch WWE for that, that's not the point of a sport like wrestling. Midgets lack believability because of their size, not their fault and I understand them getting these opportunities on top, but as a fan I'm not willing to sacrifice the fun of watching a spectacle sport like wrestling just so these people can main event. They just don't belong in that spot.
> 
> ...


wthhhh, all about believability? guys getting hit with chairs and coming back etc ,thats real to you? lol gtfo here


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## Flashyelbow (Mar 3, 2014)

The5star_Kid said:


> wthhhh, all about believability? guys getting hit with chairs and coming back etc ,thats real to you? lol gtfo here



Let's not forget Taker being buried 20 billion times now.


Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App


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## swibbs (Nov 9, 2013)

First off when has pro wrestling ever followed any sort of logic?

Barry Horowitz beating Chris Candido (oh sorry, Skip) on SEVERAL occasions comes to mind.

And don't forget when the 1-2-3 Kid (Sean Waltman) defeated Razor Ramon after like only using 4-5 moves


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## NikkiSixx (Jun 24, 2006)

Zero G said:


> ...Balor...short dudes who look like college geeks...


I went to a college that was heavy on sports, so I saw a lot of "believable" athletes, but I never saw any geeks who looked like this:










:yum:


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## Beatles123 (Jan 26, 2010)

Ugh.

When will people accept wrestling trends CHANGE?

You don't HAVE to be on roids to make it anymore, WWE developmental realizes this.


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## Beatles123 (Jan 26, 2010)

God, people are so old fashioned it's pathetic. Don't they realize saying "Only big men can/should be stars" is completely egotistical and stupid? A guy 5 feat tall can be just as entertaining as anyone. Learn what equality is, you backwards thinking morons!


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## RVP_The_Gunner (Mar 19, 2012)

Why are people so concerned about height, build and weight etc on here?

Do you like seeing big muscly guys grapple each other all the time? It's the most stupid argument on here.

I don't like _____________ because he's too small/ a vanilla midget. Such a pathetic topic for a discussion.

Not every fight in reali life is decided by who is bigger. It's just idiotic to even imply it.


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## Keakone (Nov 14, 2014)

I'd recommend people go watch any WWE from the last, like, 30 years if their into big muscly guys exclusively, and thats perfectly fine. From what I gather lots of different types of fans are enjoying the varied talent, from fans who have been following the new talent since the indys, to fans like my 8 year old cousin who's already hassling me to find him finn balors entrance music 

imo I do find it hard to watch two smaller guys steamroll larger guys, but theres so many factors, are the smaller guys supposed to be from mma/genuine fighting backgrounds? are the bigger "shocked" and unsure of themselves? Theres a tiiiny bit of truth in what OP is saying i suppose :done


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## The Buryer (Sep 22, 2012)

Nvm.


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## Hera (Oct 9, 2012)

Well..... KENTA is a trained kickboxer. His kicks really do hurt. It's one of the biggest things he's got to learn in NXT. He's always been an extremely stiff worker. That was what he was known for. While it was a big joke that he was the GHC heavyweight champ the point still stands that he was one and he routinely beat the shit out of guys that were bigger than him. It's a little harder to put across with Devitt but I think Tensai putting across that he was put through the ringer at the New Japan dojo is something that they need to do more of.


While I know WWE likes to do the "what you did before doesn't matter" in the case of both of them I think they really need to make it a strong point. If you knew anything about Itami and Balor's previous work then you'd know that two goofs like The Ascension getting the shit kicked out of them isn't that shocking. If anything the beatdown should have been worse given the backgrounds they have. 



> and Bob Sapp being a huge star with nothing but his looks


That's because a big black dude is an oddity in Japan. If he was just a big guy it wouldn't matter so much. So I mean I guess he's over because of his looks but still. It's not because he's a tall guy with a lot of muscle....


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## Monterossa (Jul 25, 2012)

Ascension fucking sucks.

Conner, that guy was the rat face guy from the old NXT.






I can't take this guy seriously.

and the Ascension, they act like some kind of evil similar to the Ministry but they never did anything in the storyline like the Ministry did. basically a gimmickless tag team that pretends to have a gimmick.


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## NikkiSixx (Jun 24, 2006)

*Monterossa* - I have my problems with the Ascension (kind of what you touched on with the Ministry thing -- the original iteration was more akin to that but it was quickly dropped), but Connor is honestly 3 times the size he was during originals NXT, and I find that to be a mix of both impressive and terrifying. Plus, original NXT (though it had its moments and Redemption) was set up so much for a lot of those guys to fail, I can only imagine Vince (or someone similar) at the time thought the rat similarity was HILARIOUS and told him to go with that.


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## Toonami4Life (Jan 29, 2014)

Good thing Bruce Lee wasn't around to hear your idiotic views and opinions. He'd never been allowed to be a star if everyone else had your narrow minded short sighted view.


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## Shepard (Apr 30, 2011)

oh man this is such a troll thread.


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