# ROH Final Battle 2011 Discussion Thread - December 23rd!



## Chismo

Finally some fucking hype! What are they waiting with the Steen stuff? Predictions:

Davey/Eddie
WGTT/The Briscoes (make it Tornado rules, please...)
Lethal/Bennett/Ciampa
Strong/...Jacobs, Cole or Perkins maybe?
Steen/Corino FWH
Young Bucks/The ANX

I don't know where Elgin and El Generico fit.


----------



## kwjr86

I'm assuming that Invitational will be answered by Nigel.


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## Corey

Roddy's Invitational needs to be answered by one of these two men:

Nigel McGuinness or Finlay.


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## SuperDuperSonic

I'm far more interested in a Davey vs. Lethal match than Wolf vs. Wolf III.


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## Bubz

Yeah, Davey/Lethal would be cool, but there isn't a story behind it at all whcih I think there needs to be for Final Battle, so I think it will most likely be Davey/Eddie.


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## bigbuxxx

haven't watched roh since their BitW ppv but looking forward to this for some odd reason.

@bubz: didn't they already announce davey vs eddie for fb on roh tv a number of weeks ago?


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## Fighter Daron

SuperDuperSonic said:


> I'm far more interested in a Davey vs. Lethal match than Wolf vs. Wolf III.


And why they would fight?


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## geraldinhio

Ugh, Eddie vs Davey again . 

I'd love for them to build Corino / Steen for the main event in a fight without honor. Davey / Eddie is very underwelming. Why not even do Davey / Steen ? A man can dream.


----------



## Bubz

bigbuxxx said:


> haven't watched roh since their BitW ppv but looking forward to this for some odd reason.
> 
> @bubz: didn't they already announce davey vs eddie for fb on roh tv a number of weeks ago?


I don't think so, I could be wrong though. I think they are supposed to announce it next week on the tv show.


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## bigbuxxx

Bubz said:


> I don't think so, I could be wrong though. I think they are supposed to announce it next week on the tv show.


http://www.wrestlingforum.com/10443920-post18.html

yeah it's already been announced. i don't have a source in my post there but it most likely came from the roh on sbg stickied thread.


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## SuperDuperSonic

Bubz said:


> Yeah, Davey/Lethal would be cool, but there isn't a story behind it at all whcih I think there needs to be for Final Battle, so I think it will most likely be Davey/Eddie.


Lethal would be a deserving new challenger since he's the only other singles champion in the company, with what will by that point be victories over Generico (twice) and Strong.


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## Corey

Just to clear all this up, ROH put in today's newswire that Lethal and Eddie are the only two in consideration for the World Title match. The "official" announcement is on next week's TV show, but **spoiler alert** it's Eddie. 

And we all know anything can happen with this company, just look at Eddie's surprise title win. For all we know, Generico could beat Davey at GBH and defend against Eddie and then we get Steen/Davey. Who knows!


----------



## KingCrash

Jack Evans 187 said:


> And we all know anything can happen with this company, just look at Eddie's surprise title win. For all we know, Generico could beat Davey at GBH and defend against Eddie and then we get Steen/Davey. Who knows!


If this happens I'll never insult Mike Bennett ever again.

And I know it's been done to death but I would much rather have ANX/Briscoes as the tag title match then WGTT/Briscoes.


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## EffectRaven

From a business and hype perspective WGTT/Briscoes as well as Richards/Edwards are the best choice.

I'm cautiously optimistic about the tag title match and The Wolves delivered at BITW so I'm cool with another match


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## EffectRaven

From a business and hype perspective WGTT/Briscoes as well as Richards/Edwards are the best choice.

I'm cautiously optimistic about the tag title match and The Wolves delivered at BITW so I'm cool with another match


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## antoniomare007

I'm actually pretty excited about Eddie vs Davey III. Their BITW encounter leaved a lot of stuff on the table for them to work with and have a better match. I also hope the do a better job at creating drama.


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## jawbreaker

As if the first two WGTT-Briscoes matches weren't bad enough, they seriously want to do it a third time? Praying Cole and O'Reilly take the belts in Collinsville.

And even though I have no hope for the match itself, I'm actually interested to see what happens with Eddie and Davey. It's been a well-booked storyline.


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## Neutronic

Whatever happened to ROH's high flyer scouting?


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## J-Rokk

geraldinhio said:


> Ugh, Eddie vs Davey again .
> 
> I'd love for them to build Corino / Steen for the main event in a fight without honor. Davey / Eddie is very underwelming. Why not even do Davey / Steen ? A man can dream.


This, this, this a thousand times this!

I'm ready to hear more about Steen. Every person that watches ROH knows Steen is their hottest commodity. 

Then again Ring of Honor is succeding where WWE failed, and by that I mean ROH keeping anything Steen related hush-hush as to build a damn crazy sense of suspense and to keep viewers tuning in if for nothing else to see what Mr. Wrestling may or may not do. 

WWE had the chance to do this with Punk when he was white-hot and went under with the belt after he beat Cena at MITB. Did WWE use that whole angle wisely and build an uber-suspense concerning Punk? Why hell no, it was what, like 2 weeks or less later Punk was on Raw thus ruining any hype/build they had going with the storyline. 

Then again Steen and Punk's angles are a bit different, but in the same aspect they were in the same vein too. Bottom line ROH has a good booking and creative team when it comes to Steen whereas WWE had doo-doo with Punk.

/rant

I <3 K Seen


----------



## Fighter Daron

But that's because WWE doesn't want long storylines, cause they live out of the casual fan, who won't know who Punk is if he was returned in two months or so.


----------



## EffectRaven

I was thinking about the potential card in its entirety and I expect it to look something like this in match order:


**Potential Spoilers**


*Future Shock vs. The Young Bucks*
They've been semi-building this match since Best in the World. These two teams may have faced each other at the last two New York shows but they've yet to have a decisive one-on-one clash. This would make for a red hot opener

*Four Corner Survival: El Generico vs. Michael Elgin vs. Mike Bennett vs. TJ Perkins*
Filler obviously but this would make a damn fun match with Elgin dominating, Perkins being a ninja and Generico being his usual awesome self. ROH could put some hype behind this match by saying something like "This match could play a huge role in determining future title contenders."

*ROH TV Title Match: Jay Lethal vs. Tomasso Ciampa*
It said in the recent newswire that if possible, the TV Title will be defended at Final Battle. This match pretty much writes itself. Ciampa is undefeated in ROH, Lethal is undefeated since his return. Ciampa has shown in recent videowires that he's growing impatient and wants bigger opportunities and Lethal is the strong champion who will face anyone. Could make for a great undercard match

*Roderick Strong Invitational Challenge: Roderick Strong vs. Nigel McGuinness*
Now we don't know that it'll be Nigel but he's my top pick at the moment considering what went down on TV a couple weeks ago. Get Jim Cornette on commentary and let Roddy and Nigel tear the house down. About as good as a farewell match Nigel could have in ROH. Would be a great rub for Roddy as well

*The All Night Express vs. The Bravado Brothers*
Just filler to open the second part of the show. Let the Bravados hold their own a bit against one of the top teams in the company and let ANX get the win to keep some momentum rolling. Basic stuff really

*Fight Without Honor: Steve Corino vs. Kevin Steen*
The match they've been building for a year. The story behind this would be incredible with Corino trying to find redemption by stopping the monster he created and Steen looking to send a message to ROH. Would be a great brawl and the perfect way to bring Kevin Steen back

*Tag Team Title Match: Wrestling's Greatest Tag Team vs. The Briscoes*
We all know this is going to happen. With the way they've been hyping these two teams finally going at it again I'm cautiously optimistic that both teams will go all out. Could be really good

*World Title Match: Davey Richards vs. Eddie Edwards*
This match will likely be great if their past efforts are anything to go by (in my opinion) It'll be interesting to see how this match goes down. The story behind this is weird with all of the tension between each wrestler yet all of the desire to be friends and rivals. Regardless it should make for a great main-event


If the card looks like this it should be an awesome show


----------



## Bubz

WGTT vs Briscoes is the least appealing ROH tag match I can think of right now. Any other combination would be a lot better, ANX/Briscoes would especially be a better choice, and it could end the feud at, you know...Final battle. The ANX/Briscoes feud is clearly bigger than the WGTT/Briscoes feud.


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## Fighter Daron

Not awesome, but good.


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## Matt_Yoda

-I hope that Final Battle this year delivers all around because the last 2 Final Battles weren't bad per se, but rather underwhelming I think for the hype they got. No problem with Davey/Eddie and even WGTT/Briscoes because those are basically the only straight-ahead feuds that they have going on right now other than Lethal being built up. I still think that the Briscoes deserves better because they've been the most consistent act in ROH IMO. I know people would shit on it but I would love if the Briscoes spent a short time chasing the World Title, but remaining a Tag Team.

-The reason I think that they aren't going with ANX/Briscoes for FB is Ladder War III, I think that was supposed to be the big blowoff match technically. Aren't they gearing up for a American Wolves vs. HoT fued? I would say that they could do Future Shock vs. HoT but Roddy has that open challenge thing and Cole isn't apart of Team Richards.

-I know that they're probably going to book Lehtal/Ciampa but damn I would love to see what Lethal and TJ Perkins could do. At this point, I don't know what the hell they could do with Generico because he hasn't been in anything meaningful since his feud with HoT over the summer, though he'll be on the show in some fashion thank goodness. I expect Steen to make his full return at Final Battle as well as a surprise appearance from a certain someone.


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## Bubz

I really hope it's Nigel that answers the open challenge and not someone like TJP.


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## Fighter Daron

Matt_Yoda said:


> -I hope that Final Battle this year delivers all around because the last 2 Final Battles weren't bad per se, but rather underwhelming I think for the hype they got. No problem with Davey/Eddie and even WGTT/Briscoes because those are basically the only straight-ahead feuds that they have going on right now other than Lethal being built up. I still think that the Briscoes deserves better because they've been the most consistent act in ROH IMO. I know people would shit on it but I would love if the Briscoes spent a short time chasing the World Title, but remaining a Tag Team.


You won't see anything better than Strong/Richards or Generico/Steen.


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## Matt_Yoda

Fighter Daron said:


> You won't see anything better than Strong/Richards or Generico/Steen.


Those were great matches, but I wasn't talking specifically about the main events. I was talking about the entire Final Battle card as a whole, the all around show. What good is the show if the only the main event(s) delivered? I tend to prefer shows that I personally enjoy from top to bottom rather than 1-3 match shows such as the last two Final Battle events.


----------



## jawbreaker

The opener was fantastic. The rest was either underwhelming (Cabana/Perkins) or stupid shit that never should have been booked (KOW/Hagadorn vs. Briscoes).


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## Fighter Daron

jawbreaker said:


> The opener was fantastic.


This.


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## The CRA1GER

jawbreaker said:


> The opener was fantastic. The rest was either underwhelming (Cabana/Perkins) or stupid shit that never should have been booked (KOW/Hagadorn vs. Briscoes).


How could you not enjoy Papa Briscoe? That match was fun.


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## Fighter Daron

The CRA1GER said:


> How could you not enjoy Papa Briscoe? That match was fun.


Yeah, it was funny, but they had to put something greater on Final Battle.


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## Corey

I wholeheartedly disagree. Final Battle 2010 is probably the best Final Battle I've personally I've ever seen from the company. Opener was an exciting spotfest, Cabana/Perkins was a nice scientific wrestling match with your usual Cabana comedy, the women's match was also good, Edwards/Dutt was a good midcard match, KOW & Hagadorn vs. The Briscoes was tons of fun, and the double main event was pretty god damn great. I'd put 2006 right behind it but I haven't seen 2008.


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## Matt_Yoda

I'm" not saying that Final Battle '10 was a bad show lol, I just thought it was underwhelming. Their wasn't anything particularly "bad" about the show, I just felt that it didn't live up to the hype at the time (and the event got A LOT of hype), I think more than anything I went into the show with unrealistic expectations.

For example, I don't rate Strong/Richards as high as many others it was a great match but I don't think they'll ever top BFSE (Which is their definitive match for me). The opener was solid, Cabana/TJP was great if you're fan of the WoS, I really enjoyed Dutt/Edwards more than most, The Briscoes vs. KOW/Hagadorn was a fresh change of pace and if you accept it for what was it was good. Steen/Generico was awesome. The show wasn't bad but I didn't think it was great.


----------



## jawbreaker

Davey/Roddy from BFSE 2 wasn't even their best match that month.


----------



## Matt_Yoda

Probably not, but I go off of what I personally enjoy the most and out of all Roddy/Davey matches I vastly enjoyed that one hence it is one my favorites, if not my overall favorite out of their encounters. Not trying to shoot down anyone else's opinion of their Final Battle match, I just didn't enjoy it as much as others.


----------



## ErrybodyTaps

Considering the storylines, what I'd like to see at Final Battle 2011 :

Richards vs Edwards 
Steen vs Corino
WGTT vs Briscoes vs ANX (3 way elimination)
Strong vs Kozina
Lethal vs TJP vs Cole vs Bennett 
El Generico vs Ciampa
Elgin vs O'Reilly

Dark - Young Bucks vs Coleman/Alexander


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## Neutronic

Why would the Bucks be in a dark match?

Also I want Briscoes+Papa Briscoe vs Bravados+Grandma


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## ErrybodyTaps

Neutronic said:


> Why would the Bucks be in a dark match?
> 
> Also I want Briscoes+Papa Briscoe vs Bravados+Grandma


Time constraints. They were dark at BITW.


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## The CRA1GER

ErrybodyTaps said:


> Time constraints. They were dark at BITW.


They had to be dark at BITW because they were still with TNA at the time.


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## geraldinhio

Jay Lethal vs El Generico vs Mike Bennett added to Final Battle in a 3 way elimation match for the TV title.

I think it's Bennett time to win the strap. fpalm I would of loved in Ciampa was thrown into the mix to make it somewhat interesting.


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## The CRA1GER

My money is on Bennett. He's a star in the making.


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## Neutronic

I guess they want to build up Tommaso more?

But hasnt he beaten everyone?


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## Mark.

Neutronic said:


> I guess they want to build up Tommaso more?
> 
> But hasnt he beaten everyone?


The only proper names I can think of that he's beaten are Cabana and Homicide.


----------



## Matt_Yoda

After months and months of buildup, The Prodigy wins the prestigious Television Championship on Ring of Honor's biggest stage and leads the ROH midcard into the future, added with sporatic main events for the World Title in 2012. The stuff practically writes itself apparently.


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## EffectRaven

I expect Lethal to retain in all honesty. Though I wouldn't mind Bennett with the TV title, he's one of the most underrated guys in the company and has a brilliant gimmick


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## Corey

Interesting match, kinda like that booking since Generico was doing nothing. He has no chance of winning but he'll add some fun to the mix.


----------



## KingCrash

I think Lethal will win just to get him some momentum and get away from this time limit angle, but it wouldn't shock me if they put the belt on Bennett.


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## Chismo

Hopefully Bennett wins this one, and Lethal goes into the World Title picture. Davey/Lethal sounds fine.


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## Fighter Daron

JoeRulz said:


> Hopefully Bennett wins this one, and Lethal goes into the World Title picture. Davey/Lethal sounds fine.


Oh my god, no. Lethal is good as TV Champion, but Main Eventer?, no, thanks.


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## geraldinhio

Fighter Daron said:


> Oh my god, no. Lethal is good as TV Champion, but Main Eventer?, no, thanks.


I'm not the biggest fan of Lethal but he would freshen up the stale main event scene untill Steen's return . Anything's better than Strong/Eddie/Davey combo that's been done to death. Throw Lethal , Elgin and Generico into the mix and it get's interesting.


----------



## smitlick

Lethal is credible enough to where he can be a challenger but not champion.


----------



## Neutronic

I look forward to seeing Jim Cornette have a heart attack when Steen wins


----------



## geraldinhio

The Steen/ Corino match has to be made a fight without honor. I suppose it could make the match very overbooked though. A Jacobs turn is bound to happen too. A lot are anticapting a Colt return and heel turn for some reason. Am I missing something ?


----------



## KingCrash

Well people seem to think that for some reason Colt isn't done with ROH and will come back to help Steen and used the excuse that ROH misused him as an excuse for it. Don't think that will happen but it will be a street fight/no DQ match of some kind since Corino's promo about being evil for one more night suggests it.


----------



## ErrybodyTaps

geraldinhio said:


> The Steen/ Corino match has to be made a fight without honor. I suppose it could make the match very overbooked though. A Jacobs turn is bound to happen too. A lot are anticapting a Colt return and heel turn for some reason. Am I missing something ?


I'm not sold Jacobs turns, although the possibility is fairly strong. I could see Steen taking out Jacobs after the umpteenth biased count and another ref (possibly Cabana or Generico) coming down to make the count with Steen going over.


----------



## geraldinhio

I think it's too obvious if Jacobs turns ,but who knows? Generico making the count would be one of the most illogical moves ROH could do. Cabana would sort of make sense , as Kingcrash said , saying ROH misused him as an excuse. I hope this doesn't happen either. This angle is the only thing keeping me intrested in Final Battle ATM ,just because I don't have a clue where ROH is going with it. 

Don't really care for the rest of the card so far. I wasn't a fan of Daveys/Edwards last match ,WGTT/Briscoes could be decent at the best and the thought of Bennett as TV champ turns my stomach. 

Hopefully the undercard lives up. The Bucks or Future Shock vs Elgin/Strong would be a perfect addition .


----------



## ErrybodyTaps

geraldinhio said:


> I think it's too obvious if Jacobs turns ,but who knows? *Generico making the count would be one of the most illogical moves ROH could do. *Cabana would sort of make sense , as Kingcrash said , saying ROH misused him as an excuse. I hope this doesn't happen either. This angle is the only thing keeping me intrested in Final Battle ATM ,just because I don't have a clue where ROH is going with it.
> 
> Don't really care for the rest of the card so far. I wasn't a fan of Daveys/Edwards last match ,WGTT/Briscoes could be decent at the best and the thought of Bennett as TV champ turns my stomach.
> 
> Hopefully the undercard lives up. The Bucks or Future Shock vs Elgin/Strong would be a perfect addition .


How so ? While he is a foe of all 3, it can easily be explained that he believed Steen deserved an unbiased shot at coming back. There are multiple ways of putting together a logical explanation from it.


----------



## 777

Three words, "Kill Steen Kill,".


----------



## Fighter Daron

geraldinhio said:


> Hopefully the undercard lives up. The Bucks or Future Shock vs Elgin/Strong would be a perfect addition .


Strong has the open challenge.


----------



## Neutronic

Steen can win by knockout or submission

If Corino is tapping Jacobs has to give Steen the win


----------



## geraldinhio

ErrybodyTaps said:


> How so ? While he is a foe of all 3, it can easily be explained that he believed Steen deserved an unbiased shot at coming back. There are multiple ways of putting together a logical explanation from it.


Generico/Steen hate each other though , that's why they had one of the most violent blood fueds in ROH's history . I don't think it would make sense to have Steen's nemesis and the reason why he is banished from ROH in the first place help him get back. If anything Generico should interfere to help Corino win the match.




Fighter Daron said:


> Strong has the open challenge.


Honestly forgot all about this. I'd love if it was Rocky Romero , probably be someone like TJP though .


----------



## Meteora2004

Caprice Coleman & Cedric Alexander have been added to the talent list.


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## Matt_Yoda

I wonder what Lizard Man and Cornette got for them at Final Battle? Future Shock/C&C rematch perhaps or C&C/Bravados? Maybe C&C/Young Bucks rematch.


----------



## Neutronic

Its too early for a C&C vs Bucks match when they just had one

Maybe C&C vs Future Shock


----------



## Last Chancery

While I'm interested in the Steen angle (as is most everyone), I'm just not feeling the hype surrounding this year's event. I don't particularly care for Davey/Eddie III, and I may as well take a long, steaming dookie during the WGTT/Briscoes title match. And Lethal's title defense doesn't particularly interest me either, mostly because I haven't been following the TV show too closely, and that's a main feature of the weekly program. I'm hoping for some kind of ruckus during the tag title match, whether that's a heel turn from Shelton and Charlie or a title change or something to keep me interested. Actually, I wouldn't mind seeing WGTT heel since their current work as the faces of the tag division is anything but inspiring. The seeds have been planted, too, I'd say, for either a turn or a split. At the last couple live events, Charlie's been grilling Shelton for his botches and arguing with the fans. Given how loud the reactions are for the Briscoes, I could see ROH have them exchange roles (the Briscoes are still heel, right?).

Hopefully Roddy's open challenge is answered by someone of merit and not a guy like Perkins or something. Maybe Elgin will answer it and turn face, I don't know.


----------



## Neutronic

I expect WGTT to win

Face the Bucks at some point and then lose to ANX


----------



## SuperDuperSonic

Last Chancery said:


> While I'm interested in the Steen angle (as is most everyone), I'm just not feeling the hype surrounding this year's event. I don't particularly care for Davey/Eddie III, and I may as well take a long, steaming dookie during the WGTT/Briscoes title match. And Lethal's title defense doesn't particularly interest me either, mostly because I haven't been following the TV show too closely, and that's a main feature of the weekly program. I'm hoping for some kind of ruckus during the tag title match, whether that's a heel turn from Shelton and Charlie or a title change or something to keep me interested. Actually, I wouldn't mind seeing WGTT heel since their current work as the faces of the tag division is anything but inspiring. The seeds have been planted, too, I'd say, for either a turn or a split. At the last couple live events, Charlie's been grilling Shelton for his botches and arguing with the fans. Given how loud the reactions are for the Briscoes, I could see ROH have them exchange roles (the Briscoes are still heel, right?).
> 
> Hopefully Roddy's open challenge is answered by someone of merit and not a guy like Perkins or something. Maybe Elgin will answer it and turn face, I don't know.



Nigel will answer, and thus save the show by actually putting some charisma on it.


----------



## Neutronic

ROH should book Cena, clearly has the charisma ROH needs


----------



## SuperDuperSonic

Cena would be buys and produce one of the most electrifying moments as long as he would bring his A-game.


----------



## Matt_Yoda

Don't know if the ROH faithful would be either more shocked or pissed, but for the lols it would be worth it to see their reaction. My original prediction for Final Battle shocker was Punk but that boat sailed a long time ago.

BTW: I don't think WGTT could be credible heels right now at least from a business sense, They're arguably ROH's most recognizable faces and are being built as cornerstones of the tag division (my vote went to the Briscoes and still does, but ever since their feud with KOW no one takes them as seriously anymore). Nonetheless, I wouldn't be surprised if they hold the gold past the Wrestlemania shows (especially considering the PR ROH will probably use them for on that weekend). IMO ANX has lost a lot of steam and I don't see them holding the gold for a while, in fact I'm" leaning more towards the Briscoes becoming 7x'mers before ANX gets the straps.


----------



## SHIRLEY

Is Strong's Open Challenge...

Nigel
Hero
Romero
Jack Evans
The first of the NOAH bring-ins
Someone who's TNA contract is up
A.N. Other

...?


----------



## civilwhat

Maybe its Dick Togo?


----------



## Fighter Daron

civilwhat said:


> Maybe its Dick Togo?


That would be great.


----------



## Bubz

Since they keep pushing this 'anyone in the world' thing, it would be awesome if it was someone from NOAH. Maybe Shiozaki if he's coming over, that would be fucking epic.


----------



## TelkEvolon

Bubz said:


> Since they keep pushing this 'anyone in the world' thing, it would be awesome if it was someone from NOAH. Maybe Shiozaki if he's coming over, that would be fucking epic.


Shiozaki is waaaaaay too much.

I think Suzuki would be the best choice.


----------



## Emperor DC

If Togo, it'd be awesome. It add a lot of interest from Japanese fans too and a dynamic new selling point to the event.

Strong, fyi, has been one of the outstanding guys in 2011. He's so good and it's depressing that people underestimate him purely because of some of the bad booking he's suffered from. He's still one of the best workers ROH has.


----------



## Chismo

Yeah, but Minoru, lol...


----------



## TelkEvolon

JoeRulz said:


> Yeah, but Minoru, lol...


Haha, yeah, I wanna see Roderick Strong's arms snap in half on IPPV.


Kotaro.


----------



## Fighter Daron

None of them, NOAH guys are coming over in 2012.


----------



## ErrybodyTaps

geraldinhio said:


> Generico/Steen hate each other though , that's why they had one of the most violent blood fueds in ROH's history . I don't think it would make sense to have Steen's nemesis and the reason why he is banished from ROH in the first place help him get back. If anything Generico should interfere to help Corino win the match.


Helping Steen would be the honorable babyface thing to do despite the hatred for one another. It also sets up the possibility of a unwanted but forced upon Steenerico tag reunion where Generico plays up that he doesn't trust his partner vs either Corino/Jacobs or as punishment for doing what he did or vs Briscoes/WGTT. If it isn't Corino/Jacobs then they could be punished for their failure at FB againt one of those teams as well. 



Neutronic said:


> Steen can win by knockout or submission
> 
> *If Corino is tapping Jacobs has to give Steen the win*


Nope...we'd likely get the ol' Jacobs has something in his eye and doesn't notice Corino tapping out. 


Nigel could be a possibility as the guy who accepts open challenge in a one off, as could Hero. But I have a feeling it may be Kozina.


----------



## ErrybodyTaps

Bucks will probably take on ANX so I'd guess C&C will be pitted against Future Shock. Unless they make it a 4 way ? 

5 matches already scheduled...
4 tag teams signed on with unconfirmed roles...
+3 others talents signed on without a match yet (Elgin, Ciampa & TJP)

so that would be 9 matches if they don't make a 4way tag match. 


*****WIKIPEDIA SHOWS CHRIS JERICHO VS RODDY***** LOLOLOL.


----------



## Meteora2004

*Tag Team Gauntlet At “Final Battle 2011”*










Ring of Honor prides itself on being the home for true tag team wrestling, a place where the best duos in the business can come compete for the most coveted titles in tag team wrestling. The championship lineage has seen such luminaries as Christopher Daniels & Donovan Morgan, CM Punk & Colt Cabana, The American Wolves, Roderick Strong & Austin Aries, The Kings of Wrestling, and the 6-Time former champions Jay & Mark Briscoe. 

At “Final Battle 2011” Dem Boys will go head-to-head with current champions Wrestling’s Greatest Tag Team, Charlie Haas & Shelton Benjamin, to attempt to claim those belts for the 7th time. But what will the future hold for the winner of that match? Well ROH officials look to answer that question with a match that was finalized late last night…

With a future shot at the ROH World Tag Team Titles at stake, 5 teams will compete in a Tag Team Gauntlet Match to determine the next contenders for those championships. The teams entered into this test of heart & endurance are: The Young Bucks (Matt & Nick Jackson), Future Shock (Adam Cole & Kyle O'Reilly), Caprice Coleman & Cedric Alexander, The Bravados (Lancelot & Harlem), and The All Night Express (Kenny King & Rhett Titus). 

None of these teams have held the belts thus far in their ROH careers although three of them have challenged in the past, with ANX & Future Shock standing as the last two pairs to step up to WGTT in recent months, and those near-victories have only made the hunger for championship destiny that much stronger.

“It was a great experience to challenge for the belts.” said Adam Cole, “I freely admit that my nerves were shot going into Collinsville; that maybe the importance of the night got to me to a degree, but those were first time jitters. I won’t speak for Kyle on this, but I can say that I certainly have got that out of my system, and that the next time we stare across the ring in a title match, my focus will be at one thousand percent. If we have to make our way through four of the most talented teams in Ring of Honor to get to that endgame, to earn that shot, then so be it. There is nothing more that Future Shock wants than to hoist those titles over our shoulders, to wear them around our waists, and at Final Battle we take our next step to making that dream a reality.”

“Final Battle 2011” goes down Friday night December 23rd from The Hammerstein Ballroom in New York City! The best tag team wrestling in the world will be showcased in a Tag Team Gauntlet match featuring ANX vs. Future Shock vs. The Bravados vs. The Young Bucks vs. Coleman & Alexander with a future tag title opportunity at stake! Tickets can be bought right here or get it live on iPPV through GoFightLive!


----------



## Chismo

I was expecting something like this, and it's fine. Now they just need to keep it simple and logical.


----------



## EffectRaven

Tag team gauntlet should be good. I'm rarely disappointed by gauntlet matches in ROH


----------



## Fighter Daron

Every team is from good to great, so the match will be awesome.


----------



## Matt_Yoda

I'll definitely enjoy the tag gaunlet, keep it simple and it could be a very fun match with all the talent included.


----------



## jawbreaker

well I'm glad the two awful teams in the division won't be in this match. too bad they're wrestling for the belts.


----------



## FITZ

Fighter Daron said:


> None of them, NOAH guys are coming over in 2012.


I don't think so either. I've been hearing for months that the NOAH guys are coming and have yet to hear about any of them coming over. 

I'm really hoping for Nigel to do one more match in ROH. The guy deserves to go out in front of a big crowd on a big show and Final Battle at the Hammerstein is the best ROH can do for the guy. 

I just hope it's someone big that doesn't disappoint the crowd. Tony Kozina would. He might be decent in the ring but the fact that I last saw him wrestle live at an Edison show against Bobby Dempsey kind of takes away his credibility as an awesome mystery opponent.


----------



## TelkEvolon

That gauntlet should be fun, a lot of fast paced teams.


----------



## Bubz

ErrybodyTaps said:


> Bucks will probably take on ANX so I'd guess C&C will be pitted against Future Shock. Unless they make it a 4 way ?
> 
> 5 matches already scheduled...
> 4 tag teams signed on with unconfirmed roles...
> +3 others talents signed on without a match yet (Elgin, Ciampa & TJP)
> 
> so that would be 9 matches if they don't make a 4way tag match.
> 
> 
> *****WIKIPEDIA SHOWS CHRIS JERICHO VS RODDY***** LOLOLOL.


YES! Why didn't we think of that, it's Jericho!


----------



## KingCrash

Should be a very good gauntlet match, expect the Bucks to win it.


----------



## Mark.

jawbreaker said:


> well I'm glad the two awful teams in the division won't be in this match. too bad they're wrestling for the belts.


Briscoes? Awful? Have you seen them this year?


----------



## Matt_Yoda

I think Jawbreaker means primarily from an in-ring standpoint. Either that or he doesn't really care for their characters altogether.


----------



## jawbreaker

Mark. said:


> Briscoes? Awful? Have you seen them this year?


They had an awesome match with Cole and O'Reilly and a few good brawls with the ANX. They were okay as heels if they had the right opponents (i.e. not Haas and Benjamin). Now they're back to being faces in the fans' eyes, and they're accordingly back to being awful, only now the things that make their matches awful can be justified as "character".


----------



## The CRA1GER

I'm thinking the card will be rounded off with TJP/Ciampa and Elgin accepting Strong's challenge.


----------



## Concrete

Nothing on this card sounds MUST BUY! Final Battle is just suppose to have that feel. Last year there was the big blowoff to the Generico/Steen rivalry which gave the event a little bit of an "X" factor. This year there is no such thing to me. I believe, though I know many here don't, Davey vs. Eddie will be a great match but not enough to sell the iPPV for me.


----------



## jawbreaker

I seriously can't remember anything on the card beyond the title matches off the top of my head.

There's Richards/Edwards and Briscoes/WGTT, both of which I'm expecting to be awful based on their previous matches. Steen/Corino is happening, right? I'll probably steal the show a couple days later for that alone. And... Strong's probably got a match, and they just announced that tag gauntlet. That's five. Is there an Elgin match? Perkins? Ciampa? I honestly don't know.

Does Generico even work for ROH any more?


----------



## ErrybodyTaps

Bubz said:


> YES! Why didn't we think of that, it's Jericho!


It would be insane to see Jericho come out in the Hammerstein and wrestle for ROH, even if it's a one off deal. However it isn't happening in this lifetime. :sad:


----------



## TelkEvolon

Final Battle 2011 is one of the few shows I have actually looked forward to this year.


Davey Richards vs Eddie Edwards - Should be an awesome match, having Team Richards & Severn could make things even more interesting and it will be cool to see how Richards & Edwards interact now.

Shelton Benjamin & Charlie Haas defends vs Jay & Mark Briscoe - Eh, don't care about WGTT, but The Briscoes are awesome this year so it could make for something interesting.

Jay Lethal defends vs El Generico vs Mike Bennett - Not super pumped, but it's a nice mix of wrestlers, could be a good little match.

Steve Corino vs Kevin Steen - Very excited, there are so many options and possibilities of things that could happen, Final Battle only heightens those thoughts. So many variables. Cannot wait! Should be a crazy brawl.

Roderick Strong vs Mystery Opponent - I'm a sucker for a mystery opponent, so i am normally let down when it just some guy from the current roster (Not including Nigel). But until then, I'll be looking forward to seeing who it is.

The All Night Express vs Future Shock vs The Bravados vs The Young Bucks vs Caprice Coleman & Cedric Alexander - Should be a great fast paced tag match, lots of young and quick teams looking to excite the fans.


----------



## smitlick

The way the Briscoes have been used means surely they take the belts... Well at least i hope so.


----------



## ErrybodyTaps

jawbreaker said:


> I seriously can't remember anything on the card beyond the title matches off the top of my head.
> 
> There's Richards/Edwards and Briscoes/WGTT, both of which I'm expecting to be awful based on their previous matches. Steen/Corino is happening, right? I'll probably steal the show a couple days later for that alone. And... Strong's probably got a match, and they just announced that tag gauntlet. That's five. Is there an Elgin match? Perkins? Ciampa? I honestly don't know.
> 
> Does Generico even work for ROH any more?



So far it's :

Richards vs Edwards
WGTT vs Briscoes
Steen vs Corino w/Jacobs as special ref
Roderick Strong Invitational 
Lethal vs Generico vs Bennett
ANX vs. Future Shock vs. Bravados vs. Young Bucks vs. C&C

+ TJP, Elgin & Ciampa are signed on.


----------



## jawbreaker

Mike Bennett still works for ROH too. Huh.


----------



## EffectRaven

jawbreaker said:


> Mike Bennett still works for ROH too. Huh.


When it comes to character and mic work, Bennett has become the best in the company in my opinion


----------



## Matt_Yoda

Yeah I think Bennett gets a lot of flak for being a more paced worker. I still think WGTT is holding the straps past the Wrestlemania shows, can't realistically see them losing them any sooner. Eddie/Davey III will be a great match but I feel like I should be way more excited for the main event then I am. Whoever faces Roddy Strong I hope is good worker because I want a 2005 Strong performance @ FB. The Gaunlet will be fun, I expect the Young Bucks to take this one. The TV Title match is meh, Lethal is clearly getting built up to top tier status so the TV title looks like an afterthought; Bennett is still getting pushed par the course and Generico is in limbo if a guy ever was in one.

Overall the card isn't bad IMO, its the lack of a big fight feel compared to FB'10 and especially FB'09.


----------



## jawbreaker

If WGTT hold the belts past the Miami shows I am never spending another dime on ROH again. You can hold me to that.


----------



## peachchaos

Predictions:

- Elgin will be Strong's mystery opponent
- Bennett finally takes home some gold
- Steen wins clean
- Briscoes reign supreme
- Richards/Edwards goes so long (at least 90 minutes) that they run out of bandwidth to support the live stream


----------



## EffectRaven

Personally I think the Final Battle card is great. While we on here may not be as excited for Richards/Edwards III it's about the biggest money match ROH could put on at the moment for their fanbase as a whole. Plus I have no doubt that it'll be a great match

Tag Title match will be meh but I think the build-up has been good atleast on the Briscoes' part

TV Title match will be a really good undercard match. The matches between the three guys involved have all been good. Having the title on the line at the biggest show of the year in a match involving a top guy like Generico and two talents on the rise with lethal and Bennett makes it seem important

Roderick Strong challenge will depend entirely on who the opponent is. But the mystery makes it interesting

Steen vs. Corino is all about story and I'm ok with that. Everyone wants to see where this angle goes from here

And the tag gauntlet is a good way to get more talent on the show and deliver a fun/exciting match that doesn't feel pointless with a tag title shot on the line


But that's just my two cents. I can see how some wouldn't be hyped for this card


----------



## jeremya3690

The whole show will be awesome. It is ROH, they never disappoint. I'm really looking forward to C&C Wrestle factory match. I've been on shows with both of those guys and they are incredible.


----------



## peachchaos

I'm not that hyped because all the guys that are fresh and exciting to me right now (Ciampa, TJP, O'Reilly, Bravados) are just kinda waiting around for their big push while older, less interesting stars (WGTT, Lethal, Corino) are featured in marquee matches. Also, the main event bores the crap outta me.

But ALSO, no Fw/oH? WTF?


----------



## Mark.

jawbreaker said:


> If WGTT hold the belts past the Miami shows I am never spending another dime on ROH again. You can hold me to that.


You sound like a WWE fan.


----------



## Meteora2004

I will mark so hard if the Briscoes win the belts. It needs to happen.


----------



## Bubz

I have a feeling Dem Boys will get the belts again.


----------



## KingCrash

Besides Steen/Corino and the tag gauntlet I'm just not feeling the show and I'm actually dreading the tag title match. WGTT are going to retain and face the Bucks because they've beaten just about every other team ROH has. TV title match should be decent but I really don't care if Lethal or Bennett hold it right now.


----------



## Meteora2004

From today's newswire:

"A very interesting name has contacted ROH officials requesting an opportunity to break the undefeated streak of The Embassy’s “Dominant Male” Tommaso Ciampa. ROH officials have listened to that request and are in the process of finalizing the terms and conditions."

Three words.

Gold.

Fucking.

Berg.


----------



## Beatles123

MOROSHIMA!

..I can dream.


----------



## The CRA1GER

I'm hoping for Finlay.


----------



## Corey

The thing I'm most excited about is Roddy's mystery opponent. If it's Elgin, that'd be fuckin great. Still thinkin Nigel but idk. 

The guy tryin to break Ciampa's streak could be Nigel too. Just get Nigel on the card damn it! :mark:


----------



## Matt_Yoda

So wait, Roddy Strong and Ciampa are both getting mystery opponents?

As far as my reasoning for WGTT goes, I mean much like KOW they beaten everybody bar the Young Bucks (and like I said earlier my money is on the Bucks @ FB). I see WGTT beating the bucks in January, Possibly another Briscoes match at 10th anniversary (playing off of Dem Boys Day 1 accolade), then feuding with ANX into the Miami shows with WGTT going over. With Wrestlemania weekend on the horizon, WGTT will bring a lot of face value to the company and I expect them to hold belts over 1 year, even if they lose the straps right afterwards.

Now I can easily change my prediction at a drop of a pen, especially if ROH signs another big time team. The only team I can see realistically taking the gold at this point are the Briscoes, The ANX hype has seriously died down since DBD.


----------



## FITZ

I think Ciampa's will be announced before the show. This is just ROH building some talk about who he will be facing. 

I think both Ciampa and Roddy will get an outside name. Unless they announce more talent that leaves Elgin and TJP to face each other, which could be a really fun David vs. Goliath. If Perkins shows some character in the match and works as a good underdog the match could be really awesome.


----------



## Meteora2004

Yeah, holy shit, I didn't even think of TJP vs. Elgin; I'd love to see that.


----------



## Mattyb2266

So who thinks that hero might be answering one of those challenges. I'd love hero/Chiampa to happen.


----------



## Fighter Daron

Hero's last ROH match?


----------



## Bubz

Yeah it would be awesome if Hero answered one and had his last match in ROH. Hero/Strong would be great, and I think if it was going to be Nigel they would have announced it already for some reason.


----------



## The CRA1GER

Elgin vs. TJP added to Final Battle.


----------



## Bubz

That sounds like it could be great. God I can't wait to see Elgin destroy that smug faced little shit.


----------



## TheAce

> Hero's last ROH match?


Hero isn't going to WWE and he showed back up in PWG this past weekend, so I'm pretty sure he'll be there.

Also, if there was a time to do a PWG Vs ROH program it's now.....Hero....Steen....Cabana.....Bucks...yeah never happening but it'd be my dream agle at the moment.


----------



## Meteora2004

What's this? I'm actually getting excited for Final Battle now!


----------



## ErrybodyTaps

So now all that leaves is the guessing game as to who Ciampa and Roddy are wrestling...


----------



## Fighter Daron

TheAce said:


> Hero isn't going to WWE and he showed back up in PWG this past weekend, so I'm pretty sure he'll be there.


Hero said that was his last PWG match.



The CRA1GER said:


> Elgin vs. TJP added to Final Battle.


Random as hell.


----------



## jawbreaker

I don't think he said it was his last PWG match. I don't think he said he was going to WWE. I don't know what he said, but I haven't heard anything that would definitively indicate he's going to WWE or really going anywhere.


----------



## Fighter Daron

> Hero, who was not advertised for the show and is rumored to be heading to WWE, cut a promo afterward saying he wasn’t sure if he was coming back to PWG or not, but PWG is home.


Source: pwponderings.com


----------



## Chismo

The CRA1GER said:


> Elgin vs. TJP added to Final Battle.


Damn, that could be great. Elgin's push continues, but hopefully TJP gets plenty of offense too.


----------



## jawbreaker

Fighter Daron said:


> Source: pwponderings.com


Yes. Hero said that he didn't know what he was doing in the future. PWP added that he was "rumored" to be going to WWE. Hero did not say that.


----------



## Corey

Fighter Daron said:


> Source: pwponderings.com


That quote doesn't say it was his last PWG match nor does it say he's going to WWE.

Hero/Ciampa and Roddy/Nigel would easily catapult this into amazingness. I like these mystery opponents.


----------



## geraldinhio

Jack Evans 187 said:


> That quote doesn't say it was his last PWG match nor does it say he's going to WWE.
> 
> Hero/Ciampa and Roddy/Nigel would easily catapult this into amazingness. I like these mystery opponents.


I'm a sucker for getting hyped for mystery oppenents and love the possability of Hero/Ciampa and Roddy/Nigel. More often then not , mystery oppenents is usually a let down. Hopefully this isn't the case. Hopefully Homicide isn't one of them anyway.:side:


----------



## Corey

geraldinhio said:


> I'm a sucker for getting hyped for mystery oppenents and love the possability of Hero/Ciampa and Roddy/Nigel. More often then not , mystery oppenents is usually a let down. Hopefully this isn't the case. Hopefully Homicide isn't one of them anyway.:side:


Idk man, ROH seems to do pretty well when it comes to Mystery Opponents and Mystery Tag Partners. Punk at Unscripted 2 comes to mind.

I mean, ya gotta think it's gonna be outside talent right? There's no one else left on the roster besides Rhino and NO ONE wants to see Homicide face Ciampa again and Roddy/Cide just wouldn't make sense. SAVE US HERO~!


----------



## Bubz

Chris F'n Hero! Ya better call the coppers, ya mama and a doctor!


----------



## Concrete

I didn't even think that hard about the mystery opponents playing into my excitement of the show but this darn board to me from probably not buying the show to more than likely buying it. There are just so many possibilities now in my head. If Nigel wrestles Roddy then the TV show would look like a more important part of ROH with this match being built from the show. Ciampa could possibly face Hero. Though I would much prefer a match with Ciampa and Hero, I would really like it if Jimmy Rave came back. I guess ROH released Rave because of a drug addiction but it sounds like he is in a much better place now. I enjoy the idea of Jimmy coming back to battle the group that he was so long apart of. I also wouldn't be apposed to a BJ Whitmer return.Though that return is probably better saved for a Midwest tour. The possibilities are endless, like putting on a match with a NOAH talent to show their dedication to renewing their relationship.


----------



## KingCrash

I'd calm down and not get your hopes up for a Hero return against Ciampa just to be disappointed. I figure with it being first or second on the card it's be someone like Homicide or BJ Whitmer just to get Ciampa another win.


----------



## BKKsoulcity

Definitely want Future Shock to win the gauntlet but they have all the time in the world to get their chance so most likely Bucks are winning that one I believe ..

Edwards and Richards 3 is going to be amazing hopefully. I really hope they don't do too much MMA shit but most likely they will to give it a different feel than their BITW match. Better be a clean finish as well.


----------



## Concrete

KingCrash said:


> I'd calm down and not get your hopes up for a Hero return against Ciampa just to be disappointed. I figure with it being first or second on the card it's be someone like Homicide or BJ Whitmer just to get Ciampa another win.


Well if they brought Homicide back then I would be extremely disappointed in ROH. We already know him and Ciampa don't have good matches with each other. Plus, didn't he say he wasn't coming back so he could focus on UWF. That in itself makes me think less of 'Cide right there. I'd feel better with Balls Mahoney than I would Homicide.


----------



## smitlick

Yes but technically ROH can use Homicide because he can work iPPV for other companies...


----------



## TelkEvolon

I am getting pretty pumped for this show. Final Battle also has that added "last show of the year, sh*t's gonna' go down" feel.


----------



## The CRA1GER

If Hero does wrestle at FB it will be against Strong. Ciampa's opponent I think will probably be an outside talent. Who? I'm not sure.


----------



## smitlick

Ciampa beating Hero in a good match would be a great way to get him over.


----------



## Beatles123

One of the guys could be Cabana...

What about the "Interesting name" The news wire mentioned awhile back? Could it be one of the two guys, or are there three?!


----------



## jawbreaker

the "interesting name" was going to face Ciampa


----------



## The CRA1GER

Beatles123 said:


> One of the guys could be Cabana...
> 
> What about the "Interesting name" The news wire mentioned awhile back? Could it be one of the two guys, or are there three?!


Cabana has a booking the day of Final Battle.


----------



## geraldinhio

Just out of intrest , how come Nigel wasn't cleared to in TNA but yet he's cleared to on the Indys? If it is Hep C as rumoured , I'd be shocked if anyone would let him wrestle.


----------



## Fighter Daron

geraldinhio said:


> Just out of intrest , how come Nigel wasn't cleared to in TNA but yet he's cleared to on the Indys? If it is Hep C as *rumoured* , I'd be shocked if anyone would let him wrestle.


He never said that, nor TNA.



The CRA1GER said:


> Cabana has a booking the day of Final Battle.


Great.


----------



## geraldinhio

Fighter Daron said:


> He never said that, nor TNA.


That's why I said rumoured. He did have a medical condition keeping him from performing though. Hence TNA scrapping the british invasion just after they got their push and hence Nigel not wrestling since then. It's obviously a medical condition ,as I said it's rumoured Hep C.


----------



## Fighter Daron

But he wrote a letter where he said he will retire because he had lost his passion. And another rumor is brain damage.


----------



## Beatles123

Maybe he's found it since his ROH return? He has said his reaction to being back was amazing. Who knows.


----------



## SHIRLEY

Ciampa hints at four potential Final Battle opponents.


----------



## TelkEvolon

Ciampa vs Rave would be interesting.


----------



## The CRA1GER

TelkEvolon said:


> Ciampa vs Rave would be interesting.


I would have no interest in that match. Never saw anything in Jimmy Rave.


----------



## Matt_Yoda

I'd be surprised if it is Jimmy Rave, who would the fans cheer because no one sure as hell will cheer for Rave and Ciampa still hasn't gotten his footing with the fans. I still can't believe that Final Battle is next week... sure doesn't feel like it though, hopefully ROH kicks up the hype machine as they did a way better job for Best in the World.


----------



## EffectRaven

Personally I think ROH has done a good job of hyping Final Battle. I think this forum has just all hopped onto the "Let's be overly cynical about ROH" bandwagon


----------



## Concrete

I think a feud with Rave and the Embassy would be nifty. As far as matches it probably wouldn't be good but just like i think Rhino is fun I would find the feud fun. I don't think we are being too critical. I think the iPPV has potential. Everything looks good so far just nothing at the moment that might make some people go I WANT IT! I'm probably going to get it because Final Battle usually is at least good. There might be a few good surprises also so who knows how good this might be.


----------



## woofwoofwoof

ciampa.

in awe of him.


----------



## Chismo

Final Battle 2011, I'm just not feeling it. No balls to the walls hype (for 10th edition), no viral videos... I'm not feeling it.


----------



## jawbreaker

EffectRaven said:


> Personally I think ROH has done a good job of hyping Final Battle. I think this forum has just all hopped onto the "Let's be overly cynical about ROH" bandwagon


the thing is, there's no big hook for this one. the main event is a rematch, the tag title match is a rematch, and there's no big feud blowoff.

look at every Final Battle ever and there's always been a big hook, a feud blowoff, a hot new challenger, or a big-name import, to get people to want to see it:

2010 - Steen/Generico, Davey challenging
2009 - Hero/Kingston, Black challenging
2008 - Danielson/Morishima
2007 - Strong/Stevens
2006 - Homicide challenging
2005 - KENTA/Low Ki
2004 - Aries challenging
2003 - AJPW guys coming in
2002 - London challenging

This year... I guess they've got Steen/Corino, but that's not really a feud blowoff. And Eddie's already held the belt (and dropped it to Davey just six months ago), so there's certainly no sense that he just has to win it like there was with Black and Homicide or even Davey last year.

I'll watch the show to see what Steen does I guess, but a show full of rematches doesn't really appeal to me. What's new here, really?


----------



## Concrete

The little things are putting it on my buy list. Nothing looks bad to me but matches like TJP vs Elgin, Roody and Ciampa both have mystery opponents, and the fact that Steen is wrestling all have me interested in the show.


----------



## ErrybodyTaps

Shirley Crabtree III said:


> Ciampa hints at four potential Final Battle opponents.


I heard 3. Hero, Nigel and Jimmy Rave. 

Any chance that it could be Low Ki ?


----------



## SHIRLEY

EffectRaven said:


> Personally I think ROH has done a good job of hyping Final Battle. I think this forum has just all hopped onto the "Let's be overly cynical about ROH" bandwagon


Yeah, anyone who can count humans knows that there's more hype than ever before. Lack of interest is the last criticism that you can level at ROH, right now.

It's a shame that there aren't any Alex O'Keeffe videos anymore but TV's a much more effective vehicle for promoting the iPPVs.

Anyway, I got a laugh out of Jawbreaker, once again, making a tit of himself by complaining about rematches, then listing all of the Final Battle rematches.


----------



## topper1

jawbreaker said:


> the thing is, there's no big hook for this one. the main event is a rematch, the tag title match is a rematch, and there's no big feud blowoff.
> 
> look at every Final Battle ever and there's always been a big hook, a feud blowoff, a hot new challenger, or a big-name import, to get people to want to see it:
> 
> 2010 - Steen/Generico, Davey challenging
> 2009 - Hero/Kingston, Black challenging
> 2008 - Danielson/Morishima
> 2007 - Strong/Stevens
> 2006 - Homicide challenging
> 2005 - KENTA/Low Ki
> 2004 - Aries challenging
> 2003 - AJPW guys coming in
> 2002 - London challenging


Honestly not sure if serious here. Almost everything you just listed was a rematch which isn't any bigger then Davey vs Eddie. Strong vs Stevens in 07 being some huge drawing match . Had Stevens even had one a very good match in his life at that point?

NOAH at 05 and 08 and AJPW at 03 have been the only special attractions at FB.


----------



## Matt_Yoda

I'm" not saying that it'll be a bad show, it'll most likely be a great show. For me, it feels like for ROH's biggest event to be one week away, I should be doing a cartwheel off the Empire State Building in excitement.

I didn't even consider a one night only return for Hero; I'm" still expecting Nigel to wrestle in some capacity for either Strong (my choice) or Ciampa any combination would make for solid matches. I would love to see Rave for one night only but as I said someone would have to play the babyface because soon as Jimmy walks through the curtain people will cheer but remember that they're supposed to hate him lol.

I just personally hope that Richards/Edwards III live up to expectations because Final Battle is awfully close to the holiday so I have to plan other stuff around the show.


----------



## Meteora2004

Really hyped for next Friday night now.


----------



## jawbreaker

topper1 said:


> Honestly not sure if serious here. Almost everything you just listed was a rematch which isn't any bigger then Davey vs Eddie. Strong vs Stevens in 07 being some huge drawing match . Had Stevens even had one a very good match in his life at that point?
> 
> NOAH at 05 and 08 and AJPW at 03 have been the only special attractions at FB.


Reread my post. Yeah, a lot of those were rematches, but they were feud blowoffs that had built up for a long time (Steen/Generico, Danielson/Morishima, Hero/Kingston), or matches where there was a challenger who people thought would finally get their moment (Homicide, Black, Richards). People ordered the shows to see things they hadn't seen before, whether it was the conclusion to a feud, outsiders coming in, or someone claiming their spot on top of the mountain.

What is there like that this year?

Also, I got the year of the Strong/Stevens feud wrong. Thought the blowoff was in 07, but it was 08. 07 is generally regarded as the weakest FB except maybe 09 (which was a problem of execution, not hype) though so my point still stands.


----------



## Matt_Yoda

That may be one of Steen's best promos; he may not have mainstream appeal but the man has talent and this is coming from someone who is not as big a Steen fan as others.

Yeah, so it looks like Ciampa/Rave is on. And I'm" going with Nigel for Roddy. I love TJP, but he may be perhaps the most unintimidating person I think I've ever seen lol. Benjamin is getting much more comfortable with his promos and he was on his game here. Young Bucks are made heels but they need to structure their promos better and is Nick camera shy? Solid Video-Wire wish they do them more often like they used to.


----------



## Phenomenal Clash

I've been wanting to get in to ROH for a while now. In the past I've watched matches here and there, and went to one event, but couldn't follow the company since I didn't have the means. I didn't want to buy every DVD that came out to know what's going on, but now that there's a weekly TV show I've signed up to be a ringside member and have been watching for the past month and I'm pumped for this PPV. I went out and bought a roku just to watch it on tv. I look forward to following this company for the long run since it's the true alternative to WWE (TNA is just plain shit).

My favorites in ROH right now are Kevin Steen, Roderick Strong and Michael Elgin.

I think Steen/Corino will steal the show at Final Battle. I haven't been this excited about a PPV since this past Money in the Bank!


----------



## Last Chancery

The video wire has me a little more hyped now than before. Like many others have said, I don't think it'll necessarily be a bad show, as nothing looks awful on paper, but there isn't much to draw in the die-hard viewer. There's no "hook" to get people talking or interested, though I think the Steen angle playing out will be the closest they will come to that. But then, you can't just look back on Final Battles of years past and say they were better, because those shows have already happened. I'm sure a few of them had disappointing or lacking cards prior to the event, but in the months and years following, people really appreciated them. Who knows, FB '11 can be one of those shows where nothing looks outstanding, but when all is said and done, everything falls into place. Like, say, the Briscoes decommission WGTT, Nigel answers Roddy's call and beats the holy hell out of him for his final appearance, Steen, Corino and Jacobs side with one another to form a new, killer heel stable that is gunning for Davey for the start of 2012, etc. Who knows what they have planned? I think the wrestling will be solid and there will be a couple surprises, at the very least, and at the most, we will see a very good show.


----------



## Beatles123

jawbreaker said:


> Reread my post. Yeah, a lot of those were rematches, but they were feud blowoffs that had built up for a long time (Steen/Generico, Danielson/Morishima, Hero/Kingston), or matches where there was a challenger who people thought would finally get their moment (Homicide, Black, Richards). People ordered the shows to see things they hadn't seen before, whether it was the conclusion to a feud, outsiders coming in, or someone claiming their spot on top of the mountain.
> 
> What is there like that this year?
> 
> Also, I got the year of the Strong/Stevens feud wrong. Thought the blowoff was in 07, but it was 08. 07 is generally regarded as the weakest FB except maybe 09 (which was a problem of execution, not hype) though so my point still stands.


"OH MAI GUDNISS! JAWBREAKAH' JUZ' BERRIED DAT EYE PAY PER VYEW RIGHT DERE, DAWG!! HE DUN' SUCKED ALL 'DA FUN OUTA EVEYTHIN'! WIT' DA GREATEZT OF EEEEEAZE!" 

If you aren't hyped by Jimmy Rave coming back...you have no pulse! I'm sorry. dude. 

Hell, I have the stomach flu and I've been vommiting all day, but I'm marking out for the show!


----------



## SHIRLEY

That was Steen's best ever promo. What a shame that the past couple of TV segments weren't replaced with stuff like that.

Cabana did a good job of holding the camera too.


----------



## Bubz

After watching the video wire it's safe to say I'm most looking forward to Steen/Corino. Steen's promo was amazing and I swear he just gets better and better every time, it was made even better by Steen playing on the swings and slide :lmao. Benjamin's promo was surprisingly good, lol @ TJP, the Bucks promo was really funny in a good way 'I was at the dentist...Got recognised' lol. Eddie's wasn't very good he just kind of repeated himself over and over.

I'm definitely looking forward to the show, I think it'l be great even though I don't think they have hyped it well enough apart from the Steen/Corino match. Btw, this 'team Richards' stuff is terrible. What have they done together apart from train?


----------



## Phenomenal Clash

What time does the ppv start, central time?


----------



## Beatles123

Phenomenal Clash said:


> What time does the ppv start, central time?


I think the Eastern time is 7:30...so 6:30 or 8:30, I forget which is which.


----------



## jawbreaker

Beatles123 said:


> "OH MAI GUDNISS! JAWBREAKAH' JUZ' BERRIED DAT EYE PAY PER VYEW RIGHT DERE, DAWG!! HE DUN' SUCKED ALL 'DA FUN OUTA EVEYTHIN'! WIT' DA GREATEZT OF EEEEEAZE!"
> 
> If you aren't hyped by Jimmy Rave coming back...you have no pulse! I'm sorry. dude.
> 
> Hell, I have the stomach flu and I've been vommiting all day, but I'm marking out for the show!


shit, Rave is coming back?

_That_ I am excited for.


----------



## Phenomenal Clash

jawbreaker said:


> shit, Rave is coming back?
> 
> _That_ I am excited for.


He's challenging the undefeated guy (who I find kind of crappy from what I've seen of him)


----------



## EffectRaven

Phenomenal Clash said:


> He's challenging the undefeated guy (who I find kind of crappy from what I've seen of him)


His squash matches haven't been that great but he looks good when he gets the chance to have a real match


----------



## FITZ

Shirley Crabtree III said:


> That was Steen's best ever promo. What a shame that the past couple of TV segments weren't replaced with stuff like that.
> 
> Cabana did a good job of holding the camera too.


That would explain the shirt. If Cabana wasn't booked for AIW I would say he would show up in New York, which would be awesome because as much as I love Cabana it would be cool to see him in ROH with a more serious character. 

And Strong's opponent needs to be Hero or Nigel. At this point anyone else would feel like a let down. 

Jimmy Rave going against the Embassy should be good. I wonder if this is a one and done for him or if he'll be back for an extended run with them.


----------



## ddog121

Ciampa v. Rave could be a really fun match, I'm glad Jimmy Rave is getting another shot in ROH.


----------



## jawbreaker

Phenomenal Clash said:


> He's challenging the undefeated guy (who I find kind of crappy from what I've seen of him)


Ciampa has looked excellent from what I've seen of him (lots). when he's got an opponent who isn't a jobber and a match that goes the right length he's generally been real good.

mixed feelings on Rave as a face, it makes sense but I don't know if he can pull it off.


----------



## topper1

jawbreaker said:


> What is there like that this year?
> 
> Also, I got the year of the Strong/Stevens feud wrong. Thought the blowoff was in 07, but it was 08. 07 is generally regarded as the weakest FB except maybe 09 (which was a problem of execution, not hype) though so my point still stands.


The 3rd and final match for now between the #1 and #2 in the company and also a rematch from the biggest ROH match of the year that the ex champ has never gotten a rematch for? To be honest I'm not all that excited just like you but try to look at it from a hardcore ROH marks point of view.

You also have the show wrong they ended it at Respect is earned 2? Stevens and Strong were teaming together at FB 08 :flip


----------



## Mark.

TaylorFitz said:


> And Strong's opponent needs to be Hero or Nigel. At this point anyone else would feel like a let down.


Even KENTA? That's who I think it'll be.


----------



## RKOG

Mark. said:


> Even KENTA? That's who I think it'll be.


If it's KENTA I'll be overjoyed.


----------



## TelkEvolon

Mark. said:


> Even KENTA? That's who I think it'll be.


"Out for 6 months with a f*cked knee" KENTA? I bet! :flip

I'm sorry, I can't help myself.


----------



## Chismo

Jimmy Rave, huh? Such a letdown...


----------



## RKOG

TelkEvolon said:


> "Out for 6 months with a f*cked knee" KENTA? I bet! :flip
> 
> I'm sorry, I can't help myself.


Forgot about that


----------



## Mark.

TelkEvolon said:


> "Out for 6 months with a f*cked knee" KENTA? I bet! :flip
> 
> I'm sorry, I can't help myself.


Had no idea. How'd that happen?

It's probably Nigel then, which would be a waste of a final ROH match, since Roderick went over him last time and doesn't need the rub.


----------



## jawbreaker

topper1 said:


> The 3rd and final match for now between the #1 and #2 in the company and also a rematch from the biggest ROH match of the year that the ex champ has never gotten a rematch for? To be honest I'm not all that excited just like you but try to look at it from a hardcore ROH marks point of view.
> 
> You also have the show wrong they ended it at Respect is earned 2? Stevens and Strong were teaming together at FB 08 :flip


yeah, I knew it was RIE 2, just thought they were already majorly feuding in 2007, which they weren't.

the hardcore ROH marks will be excited for it no matter what. the Final Battle name alone guarantees that. but what about the casuals, or the jaded, cynical ex-marks, two markets that they hooked very effectively just last year?


----------



## topper1

jawbreaker said:


> the hardcore ROH marks will be excited for it no matter what. the Final Battle name alone guarantees that. but what about the casuals, or the jaded, cynical ex-marks, two markets that they hooked very effectively just last year?


As noted it's the tie breaker match between the top two guy's in the company and also a rematch for many ROH fans moty. The match has 90% of ROH fans excited it just so happens most people here aren't those people lol.


----------



## seabs

*Richards/Edwards is the biggest match they have available to them no questions so them doing it on what is normally their biggest show of the year makes total sense. Plus they both have a win over the other in title matches so they have that as well. They already did their biggest numbers yet with that main eventing so this is the perfect place to round up the 3 match series between them.

As horrible as it's likely to be and has been WGTT/Briscoes is their marquee tag match as well so they've put on the two biggest possible main events they have even though they may not be the 2 most prospectful matches but that's the condition their product is in right now.

They have the Steen match/angle for the smarkier market anyway.

All that said though I'm really not interested in the show right now which is sad. Feels like the whole ROH product has been quit for like 6 months now. The TV show isn't something I'm eager to see every week and they've barely had any DVD shows as of late and the last iPPV was filler. If I had anything to do with ROH DVD distribution then I'd be breaking my back to get some of last months shows out on DVD before Final Battle weekend to keep the product in people's heads. I know they have the TV but the TV Shows (more casual fans) and DVD Shows (smarkier, veteran fans) are two different markets for ROH fans and they need to cater to both of them.

They should really announce Strong's opponent before the show too if they have someone big like Nigel coming in for it otherwise they're doing a big match with a big draw and not gaining any extra live buys for it. 

Has Rave vs Ciampa been announced or is it just speculation? Rave as a babyface would be lame but if he's only coming in to put Ciampa over then it could work.*


----------



## jawbreaker

on the videowire Rave cut a promo and said he was coming back to ROH to wrestle Ciampa on the 23rd. don't think ROH has officially confirmed it but yeah, pretty much.


----------



## smitlick

Yeah Rave putting Ciampa over would be fine. Would like to see ROH bring in Papadon for the Embassy and have him with Ciampa.


----------



## Mark.

Face Rave vs The Embassy could be great, if done right. For the duration of this feud, I'd keep him using heel tactics against Ciampa, as a way of easing fans into it, as it would be absurd for him to suddenly be a goody-good guy. For example, in the FB match against Ciampa, I'd have Nana, Osiris, Mia and Evans all distracting the ref, but this works against them, as Rave lowblows Ciampa repeatedly and puts him in the Heel Hook for the tapout win.

Then I'd have Rave cut a promo, saying that ever since The Embassy came back, other groups couldn't put an end to them, but he will all by himself, because he knows all their old tricks.


----------



## Phenomenal Clash

This will be my first time streaming a live ROH event, for the people who have before, do you usually have any technical problems?


----------



## EffectRaven

Phenomenal Clash said:


> This will be my first time streaming a live ROH event, for the people who have before, do you usually have any technical problems?


As long as you have a good connection you should be good. They haven't had any notable technical difficulties since their first few iPPVs


----------



## smitlick

Beside the audio in the Edwards/Strong match i had no problems with there last iPPV


----------



## Phenomenal Clash

Good to hear they've worked out the kinks. Can't wait for Friday!


----------



## topper1

Phenomenal Clash said:


> Good to hear they've worked out the kinks. Can't wait for Friday!


Be warned the live camera work is awful.


----------



## Phenomenal Clash

topper1 said:


> Be warned the live camera work is awful.


I've seen some of their PPV's (just not live as they happened) and I think it's fine.

A bit off topic, but why doesn't Colt wrestle with ROH any more?


----------



## Bubz

I really like Rave so him being the opponent for Ciampa is fine with me.


----------



## The CRA1GER

Bubz said:


> I really like Rave so him being the opponent for Ciampa is fine with me.


The matchup makes sense, but I never cared for Jimmy Rave.


----------



## jawbreaker

I love Rave as a heel but I'm not sure how he'd do as a face.


----------



## TelkEvolon

The CRA1GER said:


> The matchup makes sense, but I never cared for Jimmy Rave.


Yeah, I'm not a big of Rave, but I like the idea of the match.


----------



## KingCrash

jawbreaker said:


> I love Rave as a heel but I'm not sure how he'd do as a face.


For one match it should be fine with the crowd welcoming him back and Rave deserves a better last match in ROH then that dog collar match he had with Necro.






And via the PSA Maria will be by Bennett's side at Final Battle. Finally, a reason to watch a Bennett match. :side:


----------



## Phenomenal Clash

Soooo anyone know what's up with Colt/ROH?


----------



## TelkEvolon

Phenomenal Clash said:


> Soooo anyone know what's up with Colt/ROH?


SBG don't like his style.


----------



## seabs

Phenomenal Clash said:


> I've seen some of their PPV's (just not live as they happened) and I think it's fine.


*It's really bad when tag matches get wild and they have to film two sets of brawls at once and they keep missing spots. They missed numerous spots at the Mania iPPVs which were big spots too and they couldn't keep up with Ladder War this year either. It's been poor at the DVD shows too for some of the Briscoes/ANX matches.*


KingCrash said:


> And via the PSA Maria will be by Bennett's side at Final Battle. Finally, a reason to watch a Bennett match. :side:


*FINALLY

Can't believe they've waited this long to finally bring Maria in with Bennett. She's got tons of potential to be a crazy over heel in ROH with Bennett. Please low blow Generico and cost him the match :mark:*


----------



## TelkEvolon

Maria is the perfect corner-piece for Bennett


----------



## Bubz

KingCrash said:


> For one match it should be fine with the crowd welcoming him back and Rave deserves a better last match in ROH then that dog collar match he had with Necro.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And via the PSA Maria will be by Bennett's side at Final Battle. Finally, a reason to watch a Bennett match. :side:


That video was pretty funny. Something about Bennett having a grinch teddy is awesome.


----------



## smitlick

Yep Maria would help Bennett get much more over than Brutal Bob will.


----------



## KaijuFan

While I still won't be paying attention to the match Bennett is in, at least I can oogle Maria throughout.


----------



## seabs

*Other than the Steen match/angle, Maria's actually the thing I'm most interested in seeing on the show. Don't care about any of the title matches although I'm sure Richards/Edwards will likely be very good again and I really could care less who wins each of them. Don't really care a whole lot for either Rave or Ciampa, haven't cared for Strong in a match in over a year now and the Tag Gauntlet is a massive waste of a load of talent. Elgin/TJP I kinda am but it'll just be a decent midcard match.*


----------



## Bubz

Yeah, I think the tag gauntlet is a waste too. Would have much prefered a couple of normal tags instead. I'm sure it will be fun though.


----------



## bigbuxxx

Is this the maria from wwe people are talking about? For some reason I doubt it...


----------



## The CRA1GER

bigbuxxx said:


> Is this the maria from wwe people are talking about? For some reason I doubt it...


It's Maria from the WWE.


----------



## Beatles123

Lol, so many complainers, This IPPV will be fun if you allow it to be.  I'm hyped!


----------



## bigbuxxx

The CRA1GER said:


> It's Maria from the WWE.


suddenly i am more hyped for friday now


----------



## smitlick

Yeah Maria dates Mike Bennett which would be why shes being brought in


----------



## Merc_With_A_Mouth

Seabs said:


> *Other than the Steen match/angle, Maria's actually the thing I'm most interested in seeing on the show. Don't care about any of the title matches although I'm sure Richards/Edwards will likely be very good again and I really could care less who wins each of them. Don't really care a whole lot for either Rave or Ciampa, haven't cared for Strong in a match in over a year now and the Tag Gauntlet is a massive waste of a load of talent. Elgin/TJP I kinda am but it'll just be a decent midcard match.*


Could you care less? Sorry grammar humor.

Regardless, I agree. I am not into any of the title matches at all, the least being WGTT/Briscoes since at least Davey/Eddie will be good and Generico/Lethal will work well before the impending Bennett title win.

The undercard, I at least like. Rave at least has looked really good when I have seen him this year, so hopefully he and Ciampa can get a good match for Ciampa to finally have. Perkins/Elgin should be good stuff. Depending on Roderick's opponent, that should be good. The tag gauntlet, while lazy, should at the least be crazy enough to make it worth watching. Steen/Corino is the real main event of the show to me.


----------



## ryo saeba 31

i can t wait to see how steen s return will play?.


----------



## Corey

Options for Roderick's mystery opponent:

1. *Nigel McGuinness* - The obvious one really. You had their altercations on the tv show and we all know Nigel's on the retirement tour, although he's said he won't wrestle for the company until next year. Would make for a great match and a great "Thank You Nigel" moment afterwards.

2*. Chris Hero *- No one seems to know if he's going to WWE or not, or really if he's ever gonna wrestle for ROH again. He showed up unannounced at PWG, said he was unsure of what he's gonna do, so I wouldn't be surprised if he has one last match (as a face) for the company. Should make for another great match and a nice farewell (maybe?) for Hero.

3*. Finlay *- Now we get in to the guessing game. Finlay's worked almost every other indy company all around the world this year. EVOLVE, PWG, wXw, NEW, etc. Why not step into the ring in the biggest indy promotion of em all against someone he's never faced? Hopefully bringing him in would work out 800x better than bringing in Dave Taylor did... 

4. *Christopher Daniels - *Obviously the longest shot of em all, but I'm gettin creative now. Daniels' has had countless comebacks to the company, flip flopping from TNA to ROH and back and forth. This one would be a huge surprise and they could bring him back as a face and use this angle: When Daniels lost the TV Title, no one in the House of Truth contacted him or spoke with him. They just left him on his own and now he's comin back to get even by accepting Roddy's challenge and beating him on the biggest stage of the year. Or they could bring him back to try to sway Elgin away from the House. Just throwin shit out there. I know it's not happenin but damn I miss the guy...

5. *Chris Masters - *Ok this isn't happening, but damn it would be a great match. Masters is a great seller and comes off as a perfect underdog. Idk how the crowd would react though. Here's to hoping!

6. *Kenny Omega - *Remember this was supposed to happen last year around Final Battle time but Kenny couldn't make it? Let's do it now!

So if we get none of those people, Idk who the hell it would be. Tony Kozina or Homicide would just be terrible and I don't think it'll be any NOAH talent. This is definitely the most exciting thing on the show for me. It outdoes the Steen/Corino angle because I just don't see how that match itself can be great. I'm not sure if I've ever seen Corino in a ***+ singles match, but everything surrounding the match is great.


----------



## Chismo

Jesus, Finlay = WINNING! Yeah, I want it to be Fit Finlay, maybe even more than Nigel.


----------



## Bubz

Yeah, would love to see Finlay take it to Roddy like a boss.


----------



## jawbreaker

Roddy/Finlay would be fantastic.

Also, if you've never seen Corino in a ***+ match, go watch the two Homicide matches from late 03. The Bitter Friends, Stiffer Enemies match is probably a top ten ROH MOTY and the War of the Wire match is the best NRBW match I've ever seen.


----------



## topper1

Jack Evans 187 said:


> 5. *Chris Masters - *Ok this isn't happening, but damn it would be a great match. Masters is a great seller and comes off as a perfect underdog. Idk how the crowd would react though. Here's to hoping!


Not sure if serious . Masters has at least 3 inches on strong and 50 pounds of mass on him and he would be the underdog . Strong better have some badass fighting background that I don't know of for him to control Masters for any long period of time in a wrestling match.


----------



## Meteora2004

If you had told me even a year ago that I would be more excited for a Steve Corino match than almost any other match on an ROH card, let alone FB, I would have called you insane. And then I would have punched you in the face.



> *Rebirth or Destruction*
> by Steve Corino
> 
> As I sit down at the ZERO1 office in Tokyo, a week away from the most important fight of my life, I can't stop thinking about what got me to this point. The decisions I have made, the people I have hurt, and the lives I have affected.
> 
> There is no denying that the Kevin Steen that you see, and will see at Final Battle, is a product of my manipulations. I brought the Monster out in him two years ago, for reasons that were selfish. I was mad at the world. I hated myself but I put the blame on people that didn't deserve it. Namely the ROH fans and El Generico. I take full responsibility and I am sorry.
> 
> People ask me all the time, why Kevin Steen? Kevin wasn't just some random guy I chose to create a Monster with. I first met Kevin Steen in 2004 at a show in Quebec. He was so young, but oh so talented. It took me close to 25 minutes to beat him, but the victory wasn't the thing I remember the most on that first meeting. It was that I got a sense that he was angry inside. A Monster was dormant inside him. His eyes told his story. I never forgot that.
> 
> It took me six years to realize that the Evil in my heart is because of the things I did. Not anyone else. The bitterness inside was because of me. I was a Monster. I am Evil.
> 2011 has been a difficult year for me and I appreciate the leeway fans have given me. Your support and cheers mean a lot to me. It took a long time to convince the fans and the locker room that I am a changed man, but the Monster still lives in me. There is still Evil in my heart. But I think I can control it. Everyday is a struggle.
> 
> 10 years ago, almost to the day, I walked into the Hammerstein Ballroom in New York City, a young 27 year old warrior ready to face the future. Confident, defiant, and focused. I was the ECW heavyweight champion of the World. But now, a decade later, I walk into that famous arena as a man fighting for not only MY future, but the future of Ring Of Honor.
> 
> ROH fans may cheer Kevin Steen, but your cheers are only justifying what this man is doing. By letting him back into ROH, it will start a chain of events that can only lead to the destruction of Ring Of Honor. If I lose and the Monster comes back to ROH, no one will be able to stop him. Not even Davey Richards.
> 
> Kevin will tell you that I pander to Jim Cornette, but he's wrong. Few people know that it was Jim Cornette that helped me out when I was just a youngster in pro-wrestling. He paved the way for WWF tryouts, stays in the old USWA in Memphis and WWC in Puerto Rico, and was a man I could look to for advice. I owe this to him. I owe this to the ROH lockeroom. And, even if you don't believe me, I owe this to you fans. Kevin Steen MUST be gone from ROH forever.
> 
> On December 23, I am going to do what I have to do to defeat Kevin. Jimmy Jacobs is there to be a referee, not for my sake, but so Kevin can not bully the ROH referees like he did at Final Battle 2010. I don't need anyone's help in this fight. This is my fight.
> 
> When I wake up on December 24 I will know what the future of Steve Corino holds. If I win, it will be a Rebirth of my career. One last chance at glory. And to do so, I know that I have to be Evil just one more time. I am prepared.
> 
> If I lose, the Destruction of not only Steve Corino, but ROH, begins. I can't let that happen.
> 
> Steve Corino vs. Kevin Steen...Rebirth Or Destruction...HELL HAS NO HONOR.
> 
> My name is Steve Corino and for one last night on December 23rd, I am *EVIL*.


----------



## Corey

jawbreaker said:


> Roddy/Finlay would be fantastic.
> 
> Also, if you've never seen Corino in a ***+ match, go watch the two Homicide matches from late 03. The Bitter Friends, Stiffer Enemies match is probably a top ten ROH MOTY and the War of the Wire match is the best NRBW match I've ever seen.


Oh yeah, forgot about those. Good call.



topper1 said:


> Not sure if serious . Masters has at least 3 inches on strong and 50 pounds of mass on him and he would be the underdog . Strong better have some badass fighting background that I don't know of for him to control Masters for any long period of time in a wrestling match.


I'm just assuming the structure of the match would be Roddy(the heel) dominating and Masters makin the comeback. Didn't really consider size. Roddy could just work on a leg and chop him down. 

Also, Rave vs. Ciampa has officially been signed.


----------



## Fighter Daron

Wow, great letter, I'm hyped.


----------



## Bubz

So is Steen/Corino just a normal match?


----------



## Beatles123

It should be some sort of NoDQ match. Steen said something about wanting to see Corino's blood, didn't he?


----------



## Bubz

Yeah he did, which made me think it might be no DQ or whatever the hell ROH wants to call it, but they haven't said anything about what the match is to my knowledge.


----------



## smitlick

Also if Cabanas podcast is anything to go by, Omega won't be working for ROH anytime in the near future.


----------



## Bubz

smitlick said:


> Also if Cabanas podcast is anything to go by, Omega won't be working for ROH anytime in the near future.


Not surprising but . Omega was great last time he was in ROH, but he's improved so much since going full time in japan, it would be awesome to see him back in ROH.


----------



## Corey

smitlick said:


> Also if Cabanas podcast is anything to go by, Omega won't be working for ROH anytime in the near future.


Well that's poopy. What was said?


----------



## EffectRaven

I don't think ROH would be interested in bringing Omega back after he hardcore bailed on them last year


----------



## KingCrash

Was it him bailing or a combination of him loving working in Japan (don't think he's made too many US appearances this year besides the NJPW/JAPW shows) and ROH just not wanting to use him as anything more then a special attraction.


----------



## EffectRaven

KingCrash said:


> Was it him bailing or a combination of him loving working in Japan (don't think he's made too many US appearances this year besides the NJPW/JAPW shows) and ROH just not wanting to use him as anything more then a special attraction.


The story was that he cancelled claiming he dislocated his ankle while training. Reports were skeptical about the legitimacy of the claim because he didn't miss any of his Japan dates and would post pictures of himself having fun around town on his twitter right around the same time


----------



## smitlick

Also there was stuff going around that ROH didn't want his whole video game character and silliness as well as him mentioning there not being as good talent as there was when he was there.


----------



## TelkEvolon

EffectRaven said:


> The story was that he cancelled claiming he dislocated his ankle while training. Reports were skeptical about the legitimacy of the claim because he didn't miss any of his Japan dates and would post pictures of himself having fun around town on his twitter right around the same time


Yeah, that was pretty lame, I was really looking forward to the match.


----------



## Manu_Styles

Kevin Steen vs Steve Corino is now No DQ Match and Cary will be at ringside too.

And Prince Nana about Jimmy Rave´s return: https://www.rohwrestling.com/connect/blogs/[realname-node-author]/2011/dec/20/nanas-world


----------



## EffectRaven

YES!! Hype is over 9000


----------



## Manu_Styles

I´ll mark like a little child my first time in the hammerstein this friday


----------



## Bubz

Manu_Styles said:


> *Kevin Steen vs Steve Corino is now No DQ Match and Cary will be at ringside too.
> *
> And Prince Nana about Jimmy Rave´s return: https://www.rohwrestling.com/connect/blogs/[realname-node-author]/2011/dec/20/nanas-world


FUCK YEAH! I'm excited now. I was thinking it would be just a normal match. Probably what I'm most looking forward to. Just seeing Steen back in ROH will be awesome.


----------



## jawbreaker

gonna stay spoiler free and download this show the day after thanks to Steen/Corino. hopefully I learn from the mistakes I made at BITW and turn it off two matches before the end.


----------



## hova.

Manu_Styles said:


> Kevin Steen vs Steve Corino is now No DQ Match and Cary will be at ringside too.


This is going to be a Fucking bloodbath!


----------



## Bubz

hova. said:


> This is going to be a Fucking bloodbath!


We can hope.

I won't be able to watch it until after crimbo  that sucks.


----------



## FITZ

Very happy they finally made it a No DQ match. After all the build that was put into this I don't think a regular match would have been enough. I also like that by doing it this we can get some kind of crazy ending. Looking forward to this match more than anything else on the card.


----------



## bigbuxxx

Would've been bright to just call this a "Fight Without Honor" the whole time imo.


----------



## Meteora2004

After calling Steen a cancer in the video wire, Cary will align with him and the two will inject a lethal dose of poison into ROH. Calling it now. Sorry for the spoilers.


----------



## geraldinhio

Meteora2004 said:


> After calling Steen a cancer in the video wire, Cary will align with him and the two will inject a lethal dose of poison into ROH. Calling it now. Sorry for the spoilers.


_
What would be the login behind this ? I'm not saying it couldn't happen by anymeans , just want to know what makes you think this? Just a random feeling.

Is anyone else expecting a *MASSIVE *swerve?_


----------



## Meteora2004

geraldinhio said:


> _
> What would be the login behind this ? I'm not saying it couldn't happen by anymeans , just want to know what makes you think this? Just a random feeling.
> 
> Is anyone else expecting a *MASSIVE *swerve?_


----------



## Bubz

Yeah, something big is going to go down imo. Someone is going to join Steen to help him take down ROH I think.


----------



## jawbreaker

Jacobs is the obvious pick. Cornette, Cary, and Corino are also options and Cabana is a longshot possibility.


----------



## seabs

*I don't actually think Steen/Corino needed a stip. The match is all about the angle and who's gonna turn that the match quality isn't really a necessity and they could save the stip for a later date assuming that Corino doesn't turn which would be the worst of the guys to turn. Plus fuck finishes are better in a regular match than a No DQ one too.*


----------



## RKing85

Parents are coming into town for the holidays Friday afternoon.

Told them I can't go for supper with them. Watching Final Battle is more important.

Richards/Edwards obviously is going to be great. WGTT and Briscoe's will be great. The tag gauntlet should be good. And anything with Generico is good.

Going to be a great night!


----------



## Phenomenal Clash

Who the fuck is Cary...?


----------



## bigbuxxx

jawbreaker said:


> Jacobs is the obvious pick. Cornette, Cary, and Corino are also options and Cabana is a longshot possibility.


Corino seems like the longest shot and if it happened to be him and it was done reasonably I would mark the fuck out but i put this at < 1%


----------



## bigbuxxx

Phenomenal Clash said:


> Who the fuck is Cary...?


https://www.rohwrestling.com/wrestlers/roster/cary-silkin


----------



## KingCrash

Seabs said:


> *I don't actually think Steen/Corino needed a stip. The match is all about the angle and who's gonna turn that the match quality isn't really a necessity and they could save the stip for a later date assuming that Corino doesn't turn which would be the worst of the guys to turn. Plus fuck finishes are better in a regular match than a No DQ one too.*


Yeah but if Corino is going back to his evil ways then they probably do need to relax the rules and let Corino and Steen kill each other a bit before whatever screwjob happens that gets Steen back in the company. I'd say Jacobs is turning on Corino but if they wanted to continue this for a bit and Steen kills Corino after winning then they could have Jacobs be the guy to take on Steen. Don't know who that would leave to help Steen since I don't see Corino just laying down for him or Cary or Cornette turning.


----------



## geraldinhio

_Why does every think Steen was wearing the I <3 Colt t-shirt in his promo ? _


----------



## SHIRLEY

Steen & Edwards vs. Davey & Generico.

Just sayin'.


----------



## Matt_Yoda

I don't think the ROH brass is putting Generico back in the main event scene anytime soon tbh. If he does he'll be used as fodder for Steen/Davey but then again where will that leave Eddie?


----------



## Concrete

I think Corino vs Steen needs no DQs. It has been built up so much that it would be a little bit of a let down if it was anything out. Plus I don't think Corino is particularly good outside of a more hardcore environment. This should produce a good match and possibly be a little nuts. Something bi has to happen at this event. I don't know what that is at the moment but something HAS to happen. ROH hasn't lived up to their own standards this year and needs a big kick in the pants. Last year there was the Steen/Generico feud and they need to put on another big angle or at least better than they did this year. Steen spearheading a war against ROH seems imminent and I feel like it could be completely amazing if done right. If Jimmy Rave comes back full time there are some interesting things you could do with him. A feud with the embassy would be similar to what they are doing with Steen though so I'm not so sure about that. Though I wouldn't hate it. But also the reason Rave left was because he had personal demons that he needed to conquer. He seems like he is back on the right track. It just makes me wonder if he could fit into the Steen situation. He had been evil for so many years, I wouldn't say on the level of Steen, Corino, or Jacobs but still evil. Could Jacobs try to help him like he helped Corino and join them? Or is Jacobs crossing to the darkside and we have no idea what will happen? I believe Jacobs to be possibly the most evil man in ROH history. That can't possibly be all gone.


----------



## FITZ

geraldinhio said:


> _Why does every think Steen was wearing the I <3 Colt t-shirt in his promo ? _


Because he was?


----------



## Beatles123

So, I heard ther's an interview with Cornette that says they're trying to do ROH vs Japan in the future, but they're in the midst of paperwork right now. Any link to that?

I'm listening to an interview with Davey right now from PWInsider Elite.. He's a cool guy...can't wait for the pay per view!


----------



## Fighter Daron

I think Corino Vs Steen is now a No DQ match.


----------



## Matt_Yoda

I've been playing it over and over in my head as to how Davey/Eddie III will be booked (from the wrestling aspect). Personally, I hope it is more among the style they employed back on HDNet rather BITW. If you haven't seen their HDNet match for the TV title, then do yourself a favor and watch that match because IMO that match is better than Davey/Eddie II. I know the story that ROH is trying to sell, however I do hope that they keep run-ins/interference to a minimum if they decide to go that route.

Elgin/TJP has the potential to be the sleeper match of the night. I hope that play up the powerhouse vs. agility aspect and create some unique offense for Elgin because if anyone can do it its TJP, my vote for Final Battle opener. If Mike Bennett doesn't win the TV Title I'll be shocked, expect to see Generico and Lethal hold most of the match. I expect to see WGTT retain as well. Ciampa/Rave will also be fun.


----------



## Bubz

God I hope Elgin destroys TJP.


----------



## Chismo

No DQ? That's really nice, but why not the FWH? It's basically the same...


----------



## Bubz

I guess they want to keep the 'fight without honor' name for matches to a minimum so they seem more special, but I think this should be one definitely, oh well, No DQ is the same basically so it's all good. Looking forward to it.


----------



## Mark.

FWHs are typically reserved for feud-ending bouts. I think we can expect more Steenorino matches, but maybe taking a backseat to Steen's title run next year.


----------



## Beatles123

Fights without honor are special and should be used sparingly, similar to the Ladder War. It's like breaking out a fine wine you use ONLY for a very specific occasion.


----------



## Beatles123

'DEM BOYS!

LOVE how they talked about going to WWE! Guess that clears that up. 

REACH FO' DA' SKY, WGTT!


----------



## Pablo Escobar

Another Awesome Briscoe's Video..... i wasn't too hyped about this PPV, but the Briscoes make me want to tune in.


----------



## KingCrash

Maria - Makes Mike Bennett 200% more tolerable.


----------



## Beatles123

Hey, I like Bennett, he's great on the mic.


----------



## ViolenceIsGolden

Beatles123 said:


> 'DEM BOYS!
> 
> LOVE how they talked about going to WWE! Guess that clears that up.
> 
> REACH FO' DA' SKY, WGTT!


Holy Shit! These guys should be making millions of dollars with promos hyping shit up like that. Send this video to anybody but John Laurenitis and WWE would hire dem boys in a heartbeat.


----------



## Beatles123

If you 'aint hyped for the match after seeing that, I've got a WAAAAAAAAAAAAmbulance on the way to take you back to the old folks home.


----------



## Meteora2004

That doesn't even make any sense. And I'm only excited for the possibility of Haas & Benjamin losing; if I didn't already love the Briscoes, I would cheer them for that reason alone.


----------



## scrilla

Jay + Raiders = :mark::mark::mark::mark::mark::mark:


----------



## Beatles123

LOL, I was wondering why Jay would be a Raiders fan. They're from Delaware, not Oakland!


----------



## Phenomenal Clash

Maria is still playing the dumb character? Annoying.


----------



## seabs

*YOU LOOKED BETTER WHEN YOU WAS FAT, BITCH!

Amazing stuff. Or at least it would have been if they were the babyfaces and WGTT were the heels. Double turn would be cool. Briscoes have been fails as heels.*


----------



## ViolenceIsGolden

Yeah it's definitely a double turn in the making. I'd be surprised if more people were booing the Briscoes then cheering them at the start of the match in the first place. WGTT are so stale at this point.

Maria in ROH is cool just because it reminds me of how WWE at the peak in the late 90's would have something familiar that didn't feel like it would fit in with the product and threw it into the type of content they had on the show at that time. This is like that but in a different way because ROH is obviously not WWE in the late 90's but it works for me from the psychology that I'm explaining. Very smart idea to bring Maria in and it actually works with her being so sports entertainment diva like and Mike Bennett needing that spark because he was doing absolutely nothing. A good example of how a valet/manager woman could be used to help get a wrestler over.


----------



## Bubz

Briscoes promo was fucking awesome. :lmao @ Jay ripping Otunga and Hudson!

Nobody can say they don't want Briscoes to win after that. Fuck I hope WGTT get booed out of the building.


----------



## seabs

*Maria has the potential to be the greatest heel ever in ROH. Could make Bennett a legit superstar. 

Turn Maria at Final Battle and make her a super anti ROH heel with Bennett, side someone with Steen to get him back in and do a double turn with Briscoes/WGTT and I'd be a billion times more interested in the product than I am right now.*


----------



## Matt_Yoda

Briscoes = MVPs of 2011, They've undisputedly outshined every single tag team in ROH this year. BUUTTT Yeah, WGTT are still retaining so it is what it is, they topped the Day 1 promo though. If people turn on the Briscoes like they did last year, they need to get shot. I know New York despises the Briscoes but this may be the first time in forever they get some cheers in the Ballroom.

I love Maria, I'll never understand why Cornette hates her so much. She'll be a great addition to the ROH Roster. This is how you get people hyped for a show I only wish they would've started sooner. Can't wait for Final Battle.


----------



## SHIRLEY

What a great year it's been for promos!


----------



## Beatles123

Anyone who says ROH wrestlers aren't interesting needs to see the briscoes!


----------



## TelkEvolon

Man, really hope the "Mr. Wrestling" chair gets used in the Steen/Corino match.


----------



## FITZ

So now that the show is less than 24 hours away I'm getting excited for it. I've been down on ROH for a while but now that I can see the card and know that I'll be in the Hammerstein in less than 24 hours all my negative thoughts about the company are vanishing. Which is for the better because I really don't want to be the jaded angry smark that sits in the crowd looking all angry the whole show.


----------



## EffectRaven

TaylorFitz said:


> So now that the show is less than 24 hours away I'm getting excited for it. I've been down on ROH for a while but now that I can see the card and know that I'll be in the Hammerstein in less than 24 hours all my negative thoughts about the company are vanishing. Which is for the better because I really don't want to be the jaded angry smark that sits in the crowd looking all angry the whole show.


I sat next to a guy like that at the recent Collinsville show. Seriously sat arms-crossed with an emotionless face the entire show. Kinda scared me.


----------



## jawbreaker

If only the Briscoes could still wrestle compelling matches. I don't know what it is, Jay's really good in singles, but whenever they work face in a tag match they're pretty insufferable.

That was a damn good promo though, and made me actually want to see the Briscoes win rather than just being kind of apathetic about the whole thing.


----------



## Rickey

Cool, Maria's dumb again.(her most tolerable character) Hope she cheers for Generico throughout the entire match then suddenly helps Bennett get the title.

edit: The final video wire before Final Battle





Click on the video and hit the snowflake button on the bottom right!

-Liked the promos from Corino, Elgin, Davey and Martini's laugh of course.-


----------



## Phenomenal Clash

I kinda wish they would just get rid of Mark. They have been in the tag division their whole careers, and Mark never adds shit to their promos. Jay is by far the better wrestler, and better promo guy, and could probably be ROH champion if his useless brother wasn't holding him back in the tag division.


----------



## EffectRaven

I wouldn't call Mark useless but I would LOVE for Jay to get a singles run and an eventual world title run even if it is a short one. He's one of the most deserving men in the company


----------



## Emperor DC

ROH has really just been "there" for the second half of this year, and that's a shame. A lack of events and a lack of big things has done that. IO guess we've been spoilt by what went down between Generico/Steen, and when you add in the loss of two ROH icons and the move to TV and new ownership, it's almost again a rebuilding, admittedly not on par with when Dragon and Nigel left.

I've got a feeling something big will happen tonight, and I hope it does. ROH got me into Independent wrestling big time and I'd love nothing more than for them to set it all off tonight and make way for an amazing 2012.


----------



## smitlick

Good Face Promo by the Briscoes and damn Maria looks great.


----------



## Beatles123

That Davey promo in the Video wire....PURE EMOTION.

Screw the people that say he's bland, that was an amazing promo.


----------



## Meteora2004

He came across as pretty dickish to me, and grossly underestimating Eddie, which only makes me want Eddie to win even more.


----------



## Emperor DC

Meteora2004 said:


> He came across as pretty dickish to me, and grossly underestimating Eddie, which only makes me want Eddie to win even more.


In a totally outlandish idea, that bear in mind won't happen, would it not be great to see the return of the NRC born out of Davey's frustration at not being able to get rid of Edwards challenge toward him and the belt?

Davey was at his best whilst alongside Strong and Romero, imo.


----------



## TelkEvolon

I'd love for anything to be done with NRC, they used to be pretty awesome, but nows days they would be amazing.

A lot like the KoW.


----------



## Jerichoholic1

Damn Maria look great in the new PSA


----------



## Neutronic

Beatles123 said:


> That Davey promo in the Video wire....PURE EMOTION.
> 
> Screw the people that say he's bland, that was an amazing promo.


My only problem with the promo

Davey sitting on the bench like a high school girl


----------



## TelkEvolon

Neutronic said:


> My only problem with the promo
> 
> Davey sitting on the bench like a high school girl


Haha, exactly what I thought, when he is giggling with the lads at the start and see the camera.


----------



## Bubz

:lmao @ the thought of Davey giggling with his girl mates.


----------



## Beatles123

Tonight's the night!

As I said in another thread, ROH may be getting shunned by some here, but we who watch this will enjoy it! Tonight we are in HAMMERSTEIN country! Time to let it all hang out and cheer like marks for Steen, Rave, Davey/Eddie and others! 

Get hype!


----------



## Kid Kamikaze10

Seabs said:


> *Maria has the potential to be the greatest heel ever in ROH. Could make Bennett a legit superstar.
> 
> Turn Maria at Final Battle and make her a super anti ROH heel with Bennett, side someone with Steen to get him back in and do a double turn with Briscoes/WGTT and I'd be a billion times more interested in the product than I am right now.*


Wait, you don't think anyone's going to side with Steen? Honestly, I've been predicting Jimmy's turn since he got into that angle.


But for the rest, I totally agree.


----------



## The CRA1GER

Kid Kamikaze10 said:


> Wait, you don't think anyone's going to side with Steen? Honestly, I've been predicting Jimmy's turn since he got into that angle.
> 
> 
> But for the rest, I totally agree.


A Jacobs heel turn to me is too obvious. Someone on here had an interesting idea of Cary teaming with Steen. That would be a cool swerve. I feel Cary will get involved somehow with his comments on the videowire and the announcement of him being ringside. Should be a great show.


----------



## seabs

Kid Kamikaze10 said:


> Wait, you don't think anyone's going to side with Steen? Honestly, I've been predicting Jimmy's turn since he got into that angle.
> 
> 
> But for the rest, I totally agree.


*

Where did I imply that? Can you imagine how shit it would be if there's no turn tonight out of that angle. Cornette would be the best option to turn I think. Jacobs siding with Steen would be amazing too though. Carey turning would be so random and wasteful and Corino siding with Steen isn't really fresh or exciting enough unless Jacobs and/or Corino turns with him. I think Jacobs doing literally nothing since he came back hints really strongly at them having a bigger plan for him that they've been waiting to push.

Not sure if I am excited for the show or not. Probably more so for booking potential and character development than actual match quality which feels crazy to think for a ROH show.*


----------



## Legend

Why kind of reactions have WGTT been getting in other non-New York arenas? Are we pretty much guaranteed a turn?


----------



## seabs

*Just nothing reactions really. I haven't heard them get any heat of any form since the Mania shows.*


----------



## Spinone

Jacobs will turn and join Steen. Now or in 3 months by far


----------



## Solid_Rob

Uh, so I've got one extra fourth row ringside ticket. Would anyone like to join me?

EDIT: Position filled


----------



## Mr Joe Perfect

Should be a good show but i'm really hoping Maria turns full on heel and helps bennet win. Davey and Eddie should deliver a great main event and anything involving steen you know is going to be great.


----------



## bigbuxxx

re: the megawolves explode. is there any hint that there will be dirty tactics or anything interesting besides the match here? i remember hearing edwards had a trainer, is he going to be there?


----------



## Chismo

I believe Wolves are done after the 12/17 episode (heated brawl after the Richards/Elgin match), but again... They teamed together few times after that episode was taped. That's what bothers me - the lack of consistency.


----------



## Mark.

JoeRulz said:


> I believe Wolves are done after the 12/17 episode (heated brawl after the Richards/Elgin match), but again... They teamed together few times after that episode was taped. That's what bothers me - the lack of consistency.


The events of TV tapings haven't happened yet until they've actually been shown on TV. Yeah, they advertise and build up the matches on their website, but this is the continuity they're going for.


----------



## Beatles123

bigbuxxx said:


> re: the megawolves explode. is there any hint that there will be dirty tactics or anything interesting besides the match here? i remember hearing edwards had a trainer, is he going to be there?


Watch the latest Video wire. Davey implies that Eddie has let this turn him against him and make him darker. It probably will happen.


----------



## jawbreaker

I'm starting to get hyped, though purely for storyline/booking reasons like Seabs. Maybe tonight WGTT will finally lose, maybe something awesome will happen with Steen, maybe the Bucks will get a tag title shot.

But then my cynical side kicks in and starts to picture a situation in which the payoff to the Steen angle is Corino winning and getting a TV title shot.


----------



## Beatles123

THETOMMYDREAMER Tommy Dreamer 
I think ROH has a great internet buzz going into tonights show. I know the guys will work hard & hope the fans have a great time.
6 minutes ago


----------



## bigbuxxx

I don't think tonight's match between steen/corino will be the last of the feud for the sole fact they could've billed it as a "fight w/o honor" which would've been the blow off match but didn't and even gave them a no dq match.


----------



## scrilla

this will be the first ROH PPV since they've switched to the iPPV format.


----------



## Mark.

scrilla said:


> this will be the first ROH PPV since they've switched to the iPPV format.


What?


----------



## Emperor DC




----------



## scrilla

lol oops let me fix that

this will be the first ROH PPV _*I order*_ since they've switched to the iPPV format.


----------



## alex shelley

just out of interest, how good are roh/go fight live at taking down streams? i know wwe have gotten better.


----------



## Legend

jawbreaker said:


> I'm starting to get hyped, though purely for storyline/booking reasons like Seabs. Maybe tonight WGTT will finally lose, maybe something awesome will happen with Steen, maybe the Bucks will get a tag title shot.
> 
> *But then my cynical side kicks in and starts to picture a situation in which the payoff to the Steen angle is Corino winning and getting a TV title shot.*


My luck with watching shows live is so bad that I wouldn't be at all surprised if this happened. I stay up to watch WrestleMania and get the shit-fest that turned out to be, but I decide to give MITB a miss because I'm a cheap bastard. Oops.

Tbh, I can actually see a scenario in which Steen loses to Corino, all is suddenly rosy in the kayfabe land of ROH ... but Steen doesn't leave the building, somehow gets down to ringside after the main event, challenged Davey, Davey (being an idiotic babyface) accepts, Steen exploits an injury caused by Eddie in the match and somehow Kevin Steen leaves New York as the ROH World Champion despite not actually working for the company.

I doubt it though.


----------



## Coffey

I am genuinely excited for this show. The last time I watched Ring of Honor, I just was not a fan. I have never liked Davey Richards or Eddie Edwards (or Roderick Strong for that matter). But Steen/Corino is appealing to me. I'm a fan of The Briscoe Brothers too.

That being said, as much as this show has been hyped, this is the last time I'm giving ROH a shot. They're still a far cry from where they were at in 2005, but I'll give them the benefit of the doubt, one more time.


----------



## ErrybodyTaps

Spoiler:  Roddy's Open Challenge



Chris Hero is backstage and appears to be wrestling at tonight's ROH Final Battle online pay-per-view, according to a source at the building.


----------



## scrilla

ErrybodyTaps said:


> Spoiler:  Roddy's Open Challenge
> 
> 
> 
> Chris Hero is backstage and appears to be wrestling at tonight's ROH Final Battle online pay-per-view, according to a source at the building.


awesome


----------



## Corey

I fucking love it!


----------



## Mattyb2266

In my seat at final battle now. Just did the meet and greet and got the 8x10 and my best of DVDs signed. Dan Severn is awesome, and really took the time to conversate with everyone, Eddie would talk if talked to and Davey seemed out of it.


----------



## Beatles123

Walk-In said:


> I am genuinely excited for this show. The last time I watched Ring of Honor, I just was not a fan. I have never liked Davey Richards or Eddie Edwards (or Roderick Strong for that matter). But Steen/Corino is appealing to me. I'm a fan of The Briscoe Brothers too.
> 
> That being said, as much as this show has been hyped, this is the last time I'm giving ROH a shot. They're still a far cry from where they were at in 2005, but I'll give them the benefit of the doubt, one more time.


Walk in, take it easy...don't set expectations high. Just enjoy it.


----------



## jawbreaker

Going spoiler free from here on out until I download the show tomorrow. Peace. I'll be back tomorrow, probably raving about the Steen angle and ranting about WGTT and Richards/Edwards.

I want it to be good, though. I hope it will. I want to love ROH again. I'm more excited for FB than I was for BITW or DBD, for what that's worth. Maybe even more excited than I was for the Atlanta shows.


----------



## SHIRLEY

Streams are online.

For those who can't wait...


----------



## PinkPanther21

Audio problems at GFL - just came back


----------



## DMC6162

ErrybodyTaps said:


> Spoiler:  Roddy's Open Challenge
> 
> 
> 
> Chris Hero is backstage and appears to be wrestling at tonight's ROH Final Battle online pay-per-view, according to a source at the building.


Fuck yeah!


----------



## Beatles123

Largest ROH audience to date they said!!


----------



## Emperor DC

How is Perkins not dead after that?

Fucking crazy.


----------



## DMC6162

DeeCee said:


> How is Perkins not dead after that?
> 
> Fucking crazy.


Yeah, that was awesome.


----------



## Sykova

I'm not asking for a stream.. Looking forward to Edwards/Richards!


----------



## Beatles123

Sweet opener.


----------



## C-Cool

Elgin is still a beast.

Nice work.


----------



## Corey

Is it just me or does the Hammerstein look incredibly dark and empty? Terrible lighting, looks nothing like it did at Best in the World.


----------



## SHIRLEY

Elgin beats TJ

Not bad for two people who've never worked each other before.

Some original spots.


----------



## scrilla

TJP/Elgin had some nice spots indeed.


----------



## Emperor DC

The spot on the outside and then Elgin catching Perkins in midair from off the top turnbuckle was absolutely outstanding. Did what it had to do and got Elgin over against an established opponent.


----------



## DMC6162

Is that a "We want Ryder" chant?


----------



## Beatles123

Good match!


----------



## Corey

Please put Ciampa in a decent match for once...


----------



## Beatles123

Nice ending tease with the robe...like passing the torch.


----------



## DMC6162

Punk/sloppy seconds chants hahahahah. Man, Maria is incredible.


----------



## SHIRLEY

Jimmy Rave's torch is being passed to Bennett.


----------



## Amber B

Predictable chants were highly predictable. Come on, NY!


----------



## Corey

Love the heat on Bennett. He needs to get that belt tonight.


----------



## Beatles123

Oh cmon, its not that bad. Let em have fun!

good promo by MB!


----------



## scrilla

hoping Maria goes full heel here


----------



## Last Chancery

Maria going "full heel" is impossible. She's the hottest piece of ass in any arena, there will always been some horny fans cheering for her regardless of her actions.


----------



## Beatles123

another nice match! Love MB being opportunistic!


----------



## SHIRLEY

OMG! Generico and Maria love angle FTW.


----------



## DMC6162

Generico is so fucking awesome.


----------



## Amber B

Awesome fucking move.


----------



## scrilla

that was sick


----------



## DMC6162

Damn, really wanted Bennett in that one. Good match though.


----------



## Corey

Generico made that match. Liked the ending though.


----------



## Beatles123

Sweet match!


----------



## Emperor DC

Holy shit, IT'S TIME~!

Nice event so far, enjoying it alot.


----------



## Amber B

Jacobs...I fucking can't with that shirt. Oh you.


----------



## DMC6162

Here we go!


----------



## Beatles123

Loving this PPV.


----------



## Emperor DC

Steen just said "Cabana, this is for you"

I'm starting to think that's the swerve. Cabana fucks over Corino in revenge for 2010.


----------



## SHIRLEY

Even Corino looks Cosmetically Pleasing™ compared to Steen lol.

Nice to see some old school, warts and all guys hitting each other with stuff.


----------



## DMC6162

Holy shit


----------



## Emperor DC

This is ridiculous.


----------



## DMC6162

Oh shit


----------



## Emperor DC

2012 is going to be fucking awesome.

I'm so down for more Steen/Generico with Cornette involved.


----------



## C-Cool

"Kevin Steen, *YOU SON OF A BITCH!*"

Kevin Kelly, losing his mind.


----------



## Beatles123

DeeCee, was that not what you wanted my friend?!  A big enough surprise for you?


----------



## KYSeahawks

Oh my god that was insane the night could have ended like that and I would have been happy.


----------



## scrilla

:mark:


----------



## SHIRLEY

- Violent match
- Steen back in ROH
- Shocking post-match stuff

I think that match did it's job.


----------



## Beatles123

Ring, of, HONOR, motherfuckers!


----------



## Legend

Steen to end the night as ROH World Champion please.


----------



## alex shelley

where can i get a live report of the show as it goes on?


----------



## SHIRLEY




----------



## peep4life

What the hell happened


----------



## Emperor DC

You do wonder whether this has been done to allow the scenario Legend anticipated come true, or for Steen to become champion in early 2012 and when we get a few months into his reign, Generico returns and the thing comes full circle and they do battle for the big prize, culminating at Final Battle 2012, or as it should be renamed, The Steen Show.


----------



## Caponex75

Anyone got results?


----------



## bigbuxxx

http://angrymarks.com/?ArticleID=16436


----------



## SHIRLEY

Generico out for a year with a broken neck. Series of interviews in hospital and rehab montages, on TV. Comes back after Davey vs. Steen, at FB12.


----------



## bigbuxxx

Shirley Crabtree III said:


> Generico out for a year with a broken neck. Series of interviews in hospital and rehab montages, on TV. Comes back after Davey vs. Steen, at FB12.


Around a 0% chance of that. Anything with Steen and Generico I'm a fan of . More hate plz!


----------



## Solid_Rob

I just hit Paul Turner in the head with a streamer 8*D


----------



## Last Chancery

This match doesn't interest me in the slightest. :/


----------



## Beatles123

Nice tag bout here. Innovative moves.


----------



## SHIRLEY

bigbuxxx said:


> Around a 0% chance of that. Anything with Steen and Generico I'm a fan of . More hate plz!


If there isn't at least one montage of Generico re-learning how to walk, with that "Getting Stronger" song from Rocky playing, then I'm done with wrestling.


----------



## PinkPanther21

I'm loving the gauntlet match - Nigel M adds a lot to the commentator team.


----------



## Beatles123

Damn good match! if ANX wins, this mean BRISCOES WIN!


----------



## dukenukem3do

Hows Final Battle so far


----------



## Last Chancery

Crowd seems dead for this one.


----------



## bigbuxxx

dukenukem3do said:


> Hows Final Battle so far


judging from responses it seems pretty good outside of the Ciampa match.


----------



## scrilla

Last Chancery said:


> Crowd seems dead for this one.


poor placement on the card imo. they were getting into it until Matt/Nick no sold the 10 butterfly suplexes and started flipping and eliminated Future Shock.

also Final Battle has been great. well worth the $15 for the threeway and Steen match alone.


----------



## Beatles123

dukenukem3do said:


> Hows Final Battle so far


Awsome!

Hate the bucks all you want, they told a story in this match. Loved it.


----------



## SHIRLEY

That was the match that some people said that the BITW 4-Way was.

Way too long. No clear characters. Terrible psychology. Destroyed the atmosphere.

It's really important to have a good quality short-ish match after the interval in ROH shows. Especially when the last thing that the crowd saw was something like Steen killing everyone.


----------



## dukenukem3do

Its sucks that I'm missing it


----------



## PinkPanther21

Chris Hero returns! WWE's loss is ROH's gain!


----------



## Beatles123

Shirley Crabtree III said:


> That was the match that some people said that the BITW 4-Way was.
> 
> Way too long. No clear characters. Terrible psychology. Destroyed the atmosphere.
> 
> It's really important to have a good quality short-ish match after the interval in ROH shows. Especially when the last thing that the crowd saw was something like Steen killing everyone.


LOL...C'mon Shirley...I knew YOU'D be the guy to rag on it.


----------



## BKKsoulcity

As much as I love to see Hero back in ROH. I hope it's a short term thing until WWE gets him.


----------



## SHIRLEY

Beatles123 said:


> LOL...C'mon Shirley...I knew YOU'D be the guy to rag on it.


The crowd's still dead for Chris Hero's return match, because the jobber gauntlet sucked the life out of them.


----------



## BKKsoulcity

^ They should of just built that newly created All Night Express and Bucks feud heading into FINAL BATTLE instead of a shiit gauntlet

EDIT: FUTURE SHOCK vs. House of Truth or something would of great as well


----------



## Obfuscation

Results, info, and that stuff please. I'm curious. I can't let this fade.


----------



## C-Cool

So... Hero is a one time appearance.

Unfortunately, due to the previous match, the heat for this return match was mild.


----------



## Beatles123

Its been a great PV, that's all you need to know! 

Here come DEM BOYS!


----------



## Coffey

This PPV has been such a huge disappointment to me so far. Sans Maria's ass, Unbreakable to start and a couple spots in Corino/Steen. Here's to hoping #Demboys deliver!


----------



## BKKsoulcity

LMAO wtf ..Hero just rolled out and left


----------



## Obfuscation

Specifics wouldn't hurt though. All I have to go on is El Generico died & the gauntlet killed the crowd.


----------



## Beatles123

Double turn?!!


----------



## bigbuxxx

HAYLEY AFICIONADO said:


> Specifics wouldn't hurt though. All I have to go on is El Generico died & the gauntlet killed the crowd.


i posted a link 20 or so posts ago.


----------



## BKKsoulcity

Beatles123 said:


> Double turn?!!


You know how NY crowds are


----------



## scrilla

WGTT heel turn?


----------



## Coffey

HAYLEY AFICIONADO said:


> Specifics wouldn't hurt though. All I have to go on is El Generico died & the gauntlet killed the crowd.


"Unbreakable" Michael Elgin beat TJ Perkins with a spinning sitdown Powerbomb.
Tommaso Ciampa pinned Jimmy Rave
Jay Lethal defended his TV title. Maria looked good. Everyone else looked bad.
Kevin Steen beat Steve Corino. There were Package Piledrivers everywhere. Through tables. Through four chairs.
Tag Team Jobber Match won by the Young Bucks.
Roderick Strong beat Chris Hero.
Briscoes wrestling WGTT right now.


----------



## Beatles123

^ Bs. The Threeway was epic.


----------



## Last Chancery

Stop, stop! They're already dead.


----------



## scrilla

finally getting a reaction. was quieter than an ADR entrance for a minute there.


----------



## Coffey

Beatles123 said:


> ^ Bs. The Threeway was epic.


Epic if you like slow starts, sloppy work and a lack of selling, I guess.


----------



## BKKsoulcity

Wow looks like it is some what of a double turn. Briscoes are winning for sure then.


----------



## bigbuxxx

Walk-In said:


> Kevin Steen beat Steve Corino. There were Package Piledrivers everywhere. Through tables. Through four chairs.


Steen wins. Gives Jacobs a package piledriver. Goes to give Cornette one but Generico intervenes and Generico takes a pp through a table from apron to the floor.


----------



## Obfuscation

Walk-In said:


> "Unbreakable" Michael Elgin beat TJ Perkins with a spinning sitdown Powerbomb.
> Tommaso Ciampa pinned Jimmy Rave
> Jay Lethal defended his TV title. Maria looked good. Everyone else looked bad.
> Kevin Steen beat Steve Corino. There were Package Piledrivers everywhere. Through tables. Through four chairs.
> Tag Team Jobber Match won by the Young Bucks.
> Roderick Strong beat Chris Hero.
> Briscoes wrestling WGTT right now.


JIMMY RAVE RETURNS. Ha. The perfect opponent given the history.

I refuse to believe that Generico looked bad.

I need to see Steen/Corino.

Strong vs Hero should be good.

tag titles sounds like shit simply because I have zero interest much like the main event.


----------



## Beatles123

THERE'S YOUR HEEL TURN!


----------



## RKing85

glad Steen is back!

Good show so far. Not great, but a solid ROH show. Can't wait for the main event!!!


----------



## scrilla

a few too many unprotected chair shots for my liking.


----------



## PinkPanther21

I like this vicious version of WGTT - of course I'm a big fan of them anyway.


----------



## Obfuscation

Aren't both WGTT & Briscoes heels? I'm so lost right now, lolz.


----------



## Last Chancery

Walk-In said:


> Epic if you like slow starts, sloppy work and a lack of selling, I guess.


So is it not possible to enjoy a wrestling match in spite of those aforementioned elements? There's more to an entertaining match than fast starts, tight work and impeccable selling. If it's entertaining, it's entertaining.


----------



## Coffey

HAYLEY AFICIONADO said:


> I refuse to believe that Generico looked bad.


It's a combination of so, so many things. Mostly terrible production (which constantly keeps fucking up, especially the audio and replay attempts), plus bad selling and poor execution and the crowd mics are messed up too so they sound dead when they're really not. Jay Lethal might be fighting with C.M. Punk for worst Savage elbow tribute. I can't get into Generico's super over-selling facial expressions. Then he just bounces right back up. I can't take him seriously when he does that shit. The Prodigy is just...bad. He's like an FCW reject.


----------



## JuviJuiceIsLoose

HAYLEY AFICIONADO said:


> Aren't both WGTT & Briscoes heels? I'm so lost right now, lolz.



Double Turn. Of course ROH already did a double turn this year between the Briscoes and ANX.


----------



## Obfuscation

Yeah, but wouldn't a match with a lack of selling and sloppy work be considered bad?

Double turn...I'm still lost. Does that mean both went face? What the fuck.


----------



## BKKsoulcity

scrilla said:


> a few too many unprotected chair shots for my liking.


Yeah with concussions being the hot topic these days I'D hate to hear about them in ROH anytime soon based on these head chair shots that aren't needed too much


----------



## Coffey

Oh, also if you're curious, the number so far is nine. Nine superkicks so far tonight.


----------



## Last Chancery

JuviJuiceIsLoose said:


> Double Turn. Of course ROH already did a double turn this year between the Briscoes and ANX.


I'd like to say that was more unplanned than this one. This double turn has been coming for a while now, with the Briscoes getting huge pops wherever they go and WGTT getting shat on. At the last handful of live events, Charlie's been losing his cool and snapping at the fans and Shelton. The ANX/Briscoes double turn just felt more organic at the time. The fans wanted ANX to be faces and they really had no reason not to be.


----------



## PinkPanther21

Charlie Haas is great tonight!


----------



## Beatles123

You all wanted Briscoes to turn, this is it! you got it...be thankful!


----------



## SHIRLEY

Haas is throwing bitches all over the place.


----------



## Last Chancery

HAYLEY AFICIONADO said:


> Yeah, but wouldn't a match with a lack of selling and sloppy work be considered bad?
> 
> Double turn...I'm still lost. Does that mean both went face? What the fuck.


I think it depends. If it's, say, one of the ladder matches from early 2000s WWE, then, no, that wouldn't be bad. Those were spot fests with plenty of under/no-selling. It's like TV, in my opinion; just because it's poorly written and executed bad at parts, doesn't mean it can't be entertaining. Different people find different things entertaining, I guess. Though, I will admit the production greatly hurt that three-way. Badly.


----------



## Coffey

Ten. 10 superkicks.


----------



## Obfuscation

Last Chancery said:


> I think it depends. If it's, say, one of the ladder matches from early 2000s WWE, then, no, that wouldn't be bad. Those were spot fests with plenty of under/no-selling. It's like TV, in my opinion; just because it's poorly written and executed bad at parts, doesn't mean it can't be entertaining. Different people find different things entertaining, I guess. Though, I will admit the production greatly hurt that three-way. Badly.


I don't recall any lack of selling from the TLC matches. You land on a ladder, it's gonna hurt. Have to get up to continue working. I don't remember someone taking a table spot and getting up 1 minute later to attempt to climb and do another random spot. Hate the term spot fest too. They escalated towards every spot in good fashion. I wouldn't compare those matches to anything considering the level that they were on for the time.

Don't really know if I'll bother with this show tonight. Outside of the two matches that sounded interesting to me.


----------



## Last Chancery

Can we get a quick count of clotheslines, chops and inside cradles?


----------



## JuviJuiceIsLoose

LMAO @ The Hacksaw Jim Duggan chants!


----------



## Coffey

Charlie Haas hit an Olympic Slam which bumped the ref. Shelton Benjamin had been taken to the back due to messed up ribs. He came back when the ref was down, grabbed a board from under the ring and slapped the Briscoes with it. The crowd chanted HOOO!! really loudly, then broke out into a USA! USA! USA! chant. 

No pin was made, ref came back. Briscoes hit the Doomsday Device. Won the tag titles.

I marked for the crowd marking for Hacksaw though.

EDIT: Also, up to 11 superkicks now.


----------



## PinkPanther21

Briscoes new tag-team champs - great match! Very fun!


----------



## Beatles123

Mark out!!!!!


----------



## Last Chancery

Glad the Briscoes won. Hopefully the tag division gets a lot more interesting in 2012, because this year it left a lot to be desired.


----------



## DMC6162

DEM BOYS!


----------



## JuviJuiceIsLoose

Sick of the Briscoes as Tag Champs.


----------



## Obfuscation

Not much of a Briscoes fan, but they're loads better than WGTT. I guess I'll look as that as the only positive. It's been done to death tho.


----------



## C-Cool

Weirdest double turn I've seen in a long while.

Haas and Benjamin need a self-reflection to analyze their craft, because there was a reason why the Briscoes were preferred over them.

Hopefully they can get better after the title loss. Maybe one of them can have a Bully Ray-like career mini-resurgence.


----------



## Beatles123

This is what you all wanted!


----------



## Corey

HAYLEY AFICIONADO said:


> Not much of a Briscoes fan, but they're loads better than WGTT. I guess I'll look as that as the only positive. It's been done to death tho.


I really want you to watch this match, man. Seriously the worst thing I've ever seen.


----------



## JuviJuiceIsLoose

C-Cool said:


> Weirdest double turn I've seen in a long while.


In 6 months, they'll be cheering WGTT again. Fuckin' weird ass ROH Fans!


----------



## scrilla

what was up with Kevin Kelly no selling WGTT heelish actions? pretty stupid. wasn't a good match, but I'm glad we got a double turn and new champs.


Severn to shoot on everyone and win the ROH title like he should've done in the 1999 rumble.


----------



## SpeedStick

Who won the tag title match?


----------



## Last Chancery

Eddie didn't grow a Severn 'stache for this match. Knocking it down a star right off the bat for that alone.


----------



## Obfuscation

Jack Evans 187 said:


> I really want you to watch this match, man. Seriously the worst thing I've ever seen.


:lmao

There's the clincher right there.


----------



## Coffey

So, the real question is, should the Briscoes dedicate that title win to the dead chickens, or Campbell's Chunky?


----------



## Beatles123

so much complaining....my dear god.


----------



## Last Chancery

Dan Severn looks like Mike Brady from those '80s Brady Bunch movies. Which I like.


----------



## PinkPanther21

SpeedStick said:


> Who won the tag title match?


 Have you been reading this thread? It's been posted multiple times.


----------



## will94

DEM FUCKIN' BOYS WHOOPIN' DAT ASS


----------



## Ali Dia

The ROH I loved is almost dead. All hail PWG


----------



## Obfuscation

Time for the main event: Intense guy A vs Intense guy B.

FUN


----------



## Last Chancery

lol nigel

"He taught him the dragon sleeper. He beat someone with that on TV, is that right?"

You were there, dude! You called that match!


----------



## Beatles123

HAYLEY AFICIONADO said:


> Time for the main event: Intense guy A vs Intense guy B.
> 
> FUN


You already aren't giving it a chance.


----------



## Last Chancery

R.Scorpio said:


> The ROH I loved is almost dead. All hail PWG


How long into the new year before PWG fans turn on THAT product? I give it three, four months tops.


----------



## Coffey

During the very first match, "Unbreakable" Michael Elgin had two of the grossest spots I've ever seen, so I would definitely recommend watching that match.

The first, Elgin was on the outside, standing, and T.J. Perkins was on the ring apron. Perkins ran at him and did a cannonball front-flip dive. Elgin caught him in mid-flip, like in a Dominator position then ran him all the way across the outside to the guardrail, Oklahoma Stampede style, to ram his chest into the guard rail. It was amazing.

The second, Elgin was standing in the ring and Perkins was on the top rope and jumped at Elgin for a Blockbuster style move. Elgin without even moving a step caught him, again in mid-air in a Vertical Suplex. It was epic. I marked so hard. Incredible feats of strength.

Definitely check that match out if nothing else on the show.


----------



## Obfuscation

Beatles123 said:


> You already aren't giving it a chance.


I didn't give it a chance the moment the match was signed. Like I'm gonna watch two guys, that I have zero interest in, try and make a 35 minute match good. Fuck that.


----------



## SHIRLEY

JuviJuiceIsLoose said:


> In 6 months, they'll be cheering WGTT again. Fuckin' weird ass ROH Fans!


Ultimately, every long face title run is designed to end in the crowd turning on the champs. The average person will always hate anyone that's too successful and it creates momentum for the new champs.



R.Scorpio said:


> The ROH I loved is almost dead. All hail PWG


Ironically, PWG's best known homegrown talent killed the crowd on this show.


----------



## Beatles123

HAYLEY AFICIONADO said:


> I didn't give it a chance the moment the match was signed. Like I'm gonna watch two guys, that I have zero interest in, try and make a 35 minute match good. Fuck that.


Your loss! This is a good match.


----------



## Emperor DC

HAYLEY AFICIONADO said:


> I didn't give it a chance the moment the match was signed. Like I'm gonna watch two guys, that I have zero interest in, try and make a 35 minute match good. Fuck that.


So, why are you in this thread if you have no interest in this match?

Exactly, just go elsewhere.


----------



## dukenukem3do

Here comes the main event aka "the match of the year" spotfest


----------



## JuviJuiceIsLoose

Shirley Crabtree III said:


> Ultimately, every long face title run is designed to end in the crowd turning on the champs. The average person will always hate anyone that's too successful and it creates momentum for the new champs.


Like what happened with Nigel, Tyler Black, The Briscoes. It seems like the crowd is trying to be "unpredictable", when they're anything but.


----------



## antoniomare007

Last Chancery said:


> How long into the new year before PWG fans turn on THAT product? I give it three, four months tops.


we've been praising PWG for the last 3-4 years...


----------



## KingCrash

Beatles123 said:


> so much complaining....my dear god.


And so much uber-enthusiasm from you to even it out. 

Without seeing the match to know if it was any good, at least they're going to try WGTT as heels to see if it works. Can't fault them for the turn, but I still don't know if it'll take if the matches don't improve.

How did Rave look in the match against Ciampa?


----------



## Coffey

JuviJuiceIsLoose said:


> Like what happened with Nigel, Tyler Black, The Briscoes. It seems like the crowd is trying to be "unpredictable", when they're anything but.


They try too hard to be the old ECW crowd and worry too much about getting themselves over at the expense of the show.

To me, the "sloppy seconds" chant is just straight-up disrespectful. Granted the "she's a crack whore" in ECW was too. HA!

It just doesn't feel organic since we're heard it all before. Like the El Generico 10-punch corner spot where they count in Spanish. We saw that in ECW ten years ago.


----------



## Emperor DC

Walk-In said:


> They try too hard to be the old ECW crowd and worry too much about getting themselves over at the expense of the show.
> 
> To me, the "sloppy seconds" chant is just straight-up disrespectful. Granted the "she's a crack whore" in ECW was too. HA!
> 
> It just doesn't feel organic since we're heard it all before. Like the El Generico 10-punch corner spot where they count in Spanish. We saw that in ECW ten years ago.


We saw a suplex ten years ago. I guess that should be stopped too?


----------



## Coffey

DeeCee said:


> We saw a suplex ten years ago. I guess that should be stopped too?


I think you obviously missed the point, man.


----------



## SHIRLEY

JuviJuiceIsLoose said:


> Like what happened with Nigel, Tyler Black, The Briscoes. It seems like the crowd is trying to be "unpredictable", when they're anything but.


Yeah, Gabe was excellent at working the crowd into believing that they were turning people themselves.

When Tyler was in AOTF, Gabe gradually worked subtle face moves and actions into his matches etc.. The fans subconciously picked up on these things and started his face turn, which eventually led to Tyler winning the feud with Jacobs and heading for the main event - which was the whole point of creating the faction in the first place.



KingCrash said:


> How did Rave look in the match against Ciampa?


He looked like a drug addict that deserves a chance to prove himself.

He kind of played a BJ Whitmer-ish face.


----------



## Corey

KingCrash said:


> And so much uber-enthusiasm from you to even it out.
> 
> Without seeing the match to know if it was any good, at least they're going to try WGTT as heels to see if it works. Can't fault them for the turn, but I still don't know if it'll take if the matches don't improve.
> 
> How did Rave look in the match against Ciampa?


Nothing of any note. Just another forgettable win for Ciampa. He looked much better in his DGUSA run this year.


----------



## Beatles123

KingCrash said:


> And so much uber-enthusiasm from you to even it out.
> 
> Without seeing the match to know if it was any good, at least they're going to try WGTT as heels to see if it works. Can't fault them for the turn, but I still don't know if it'll take if the matches don't improve.
> 
> How did Rave look in the match against Ciampa?


Hey man, I'm enjoying it. Just wish people could do the same because this is a good show.


----------



## scrilla

that was awesome


----------



## KingCrash

Shirley Crabtree III said:


> He looked like a drug addict that deserves a chance to prove himself.
> 
> He kind of played a BJ Whitmer-ish face.


Seems interesting, I'll check it out. 

From reports the tag gauntlet died once it was Bucks/ANX, I know Titus is hurt but did he do anything in the match or was it just a beatdown on King once it came down to those two?


----------



## Beatles123

Liking this.


----------



## Coffey

I don't mean to be too hyperbolic but if this is your idea of a good wrestling match then you don't know anything about what it takes to make a good match. This is just nothing but spot after spot, no sell after no sell. This is exactly what higher ups are talking about when they say someone doesn't know how to work. Teddy Hart style. Three separate stand-in-the-middle and exchange blows spots. Top rope superplex to the outside, Tombstones, Suplexes, Piledrivers...just so, so, so, so, SO many moves being killed.

This would have JBL in the rafters clowning on it just like Awesome/Tanaka did at One Night Stand. I've been watching Pro-Wrestling since 1985...and holy shit. Just stop.


----------



## Obfuscation

DeeCee said:


> So, why are you in this thread if you have no interest in this match?
> 
> Exactly, just go elsewhere.


Because I wanted to see how the other matches turned out. Duh.


----------



## Corey

Walk-In said:


> I don't mean to be too hyperbolic but if this is your idea of a good wrestling match then you don't know anything about what it takes to make a good match. This is just nothing but spot after spot, no sell after no sell. This is exactly what higher ups are talking about when they say someone doesn't know how to work. Teddy Hart style. Three separate stand-in-the-middle and exchange blows spots. Top rope superplex to the outside, Tombstones, Suplexes, Piledrivers...just so, so, so, so, SO many moves being killed.
> 
> This would have JBL in the rafters clowning on it just like Awesome/Tanaka did at One Night Stand. I've been watching Pro-Wrestling since 1985...and holy shit. Just stop.


Thank you. Repped.


----------



## bigbuxxx

Walk-In said:


> I don't mean to be too hyperbolic but if this is your idea of a good wrestling match then you don't know anything about what it takes to make a good match.


most people watch to be entertained. you should try that sometime.


----------



## Obfuscation

Walk-In said:


> I don't mean to be too hyperbolic but if this is your idea of a good wrestling match then you don't know anything about what it takes to make a good match. This is just nothing but spot after spot, no sell after no sell. This is exactly what higher ups are talking about when they say someone doesn't know how to work. Teddy Hart style. Three separate stand-in-the-middle and exchange blows spots. Top rope superplex to the outside, Tombstones, Suplexes, Piledrivers...just so, so, so, so, SO many moves being killed.
> 
> This would have JBL in the rafters clowning on it just like Awesome/Tanaka did at One Night Stand. I've been watching Pro-Wrestling since 1985...and holy shit. Just stop.


Not shocking to hear. It's why I didn't care in the first place.


----------



## Ali Dia

Funniest thing is some people think Davey and Eddie are actually Danielson, Aries, Nigel level.


----------



## Beatles123

*facepalm* You came in with low expectations to begine with. Of course you'd think this!

Jeez, guys...am I the only one enjoying himself?


----------



## Coffey

bigbuxxx said:


> most people watch to be entertained. you should try that sometime.


You're entertained by the match still going after a Tombstone Piledriver, Die Hard suplex, Top Rope Superplex to the outside of the ring, Tiger Suplex into the turnbuckle, Dragon Suplex on the ring apron and every thing else they've done?

We're past the point where the moves mean anything. No finish can live up to what we've already seen. Nothing means anything anymore in this match. It's business exposing.


----------



## SHIRLEY

KingCrash said:


> Seems interesting, I'll check it out.
> 
> From reports the tag gauntlet died once it was Bucks/ANX, I know Titus is hurt but did he do anything in the match or was it just a beatdown on King once it came down to those two?


The match ended with a ref stoppage due to Titus having a leg injury. Titus did a great job of selling the leg and the Bucks worked it over well but it wasn't a good way to follow 25 no-sold butterfly suplexes.


----------



## C-Cool

Next year, ROH should make a referendum on overkill finishes.

Good job Davey. But seriously, ROH needs to change up these overblown main events.

I'm exhausted, and I feel that the first half of the show was better.


----------



## DMC6162

KEVIN FUCKING STEEN!!!!!


----------



## Obfuscation

KEVIN STEEN IS OUT? YES


----------



## Emperor DC

Oh Kevin. <3


----------



## scrilla

Merry Christmas, bitch.


----------



## Ali Dia

The shows aren't being structured to well. Long matches of similar style back to back is exhausting and not too fun to sit through


----------



## C-Cool

DMC6162 said:


> KEVIN FUCKING STEEN!!!!!


Thank goodness for this man.


----------



## Coffey

That ending Kevin Steen promo was awesome. "You can finish your MMA masturbation contest in the back." (paraphrased because I can't remember the exact quote). Comedy.


----------



## PinkPanther21

Personally, I'll take the overblown main events over the Kevin Steen matches anyday. Yeah, the guy can talk, but I haven't seen a single one of his matches that I've enjoyed. Different tastes - and I'm not gonna go on about how long I've watched pro wrestling cause that doesn't prove a thing. Hulk Hogan was the most "over" guy ever and I can only think of one of his matches that I'd want to watch again.


----------



## Emperor DC

Less is more.

That match went to brilliant about ten minutes in to fucking shit.

It missed it's peak and it's finish and the crowd knew it.

Absolute horseshit finish to what was an otherwise good show, especially the first half.


----------



## Obfuscation

So was Strong vs Hero worth seeing even with the supposed dead crowd?


----------



## KingKicks

The only real positives I can take from this show:

Steen vs. Corino

Steen at the end of the show

Maria

Hero sighting

and that's just about it.

WGTT/Briscoes was actually worse then both of their previous matches, and I didn't think that was even going to be possible.


----------



## bigbuxxx

PinkPanther21 said:


> Personally, I'll take the overblown main events over the Kevin Steen matches anyday. Yeah, the guy can talk, but I haven't seen a single one of his matches that I've enjoyed. Different tastes - and I'm not gonna go on about how long I've watched pro wrestling cause that doesn't prove a thing. Hulk Hogan was the most "over" guy ever and I can only think of one of his matches that I'd want to watch again.


have you watched any of his matches? seriously.


----------



## Coffey

PinkPanther21 said:


> Personally, I'll take the overblown main events over the Kevin Steen matches anyday. Yeah, the guy can talk, but I haven't seen a single one of his matches that I've enjoyed. Different tastes - and I'm not gonna go on about how long I've watched pro wrestling cause that doesn't prove a thing. Hulk Hogan was the most "over" guy ever and I can only think of one of his matches that I'd want to watch again.


Hulk Hogan was one of the most charismatic wrestlers of all-time, with some of the best facial expressions of all-time and he made people care about the outcome of a match. He also made the top title seem important. He also made a lot of people a lot of money which in the end, is what matters most. Was he Chris Benoit in the ring? He didn't have to be. But he also knew what his limitations were and worked within them. He wasn't out there trying to do things that he couldn't do. He went from being the biggest babyface in the world to being the biggest heel in the world as Hollywood Hogan. That's pretty remarkable. It's not about the MOVEZ~! so much as it's about the emotion. That's what guys like Eddie Edwards and Davey Richards will never understand.

Want an example off the top of my head? Watch Hulk Hogan Vs. The Rock as Wrestlemania 18. Hogan, at the beginning, with the crowd on his side, seems like He-Man. Then watch how fragile and vulnerable he looks when he gets knocked down and loses his bandana. You can't teach that. It's raw emotion.


----------



## BKKsoulcity

STEEEEEEEEEEEN!!! Go Canada!!! If Edwards left champion then i'd be marking for him in this new feud but it's Richards so like Steen said, he can go finish his MMA masturbation until he's the new World Champ.


----------



## SHIRLEY

Steen never lies about belts.

P.S. It's invalid to call the biggest match of the year "overblown".


----------



## Beatles123

alright, i can see the match going on long, but you guys were given everything you wanted to see at this ppv....it is at the very least an 8.5 out of 10. Can't see how you're all so pissed.


----------



## Emperor DC

Steen is trending on twitter.

The evil cunt.


----------



## Mark.

WGTT/Briscoes was fucking great, depending on how you interpreted it on live viewing. I thought it was an awesomely done double-turn.


----------



## BKKsoulcity

Where the hell does this leave Eddie? I pray to god it isn't another Strong feud so this leaves him with Elgin but by the way things have been looking, he might have to put him over -.-


----------



## Beatles123

the PPV was so much fun. I'll have to go back and re-watch davey/eddie, but cmon...everything you were hoping for happened and ROH couldn't have built to 2012 anyy better. If anything tonight should give you more reason to be a fan.


----------



## KingCrash

Chicharito™ said:


> The only real positives I can take from this show:
> 
> Steen vs. Corino
> 
> Steen at the end of the show
> 
> Maria
> 
> Hero sighting
> 
> and that's just about it.
> 
> WGTT/Briscoes was actually worse then both of their previous matches, and I didn't think that was even going to be possible.


Was it worse then WGTT/Generico & Colt? Seems like a lot of people didn't like the show, thought most would think it was average at best with the main event being the polarizing thing again.



BKKsoulcity said:


> Where the hell does this leave Eddie? I pray to god it isn't another Strong feud so this leaves him with Elgin but by the way things have been looking, he might have to put him over -.-


Wouldn't mind that for Elgin, he does need some big wins to be elevated to the main event eventually.


----------



## Coffey

I will say this. Even if I am not a fan of the show overall, or certain aspects of it, you can't deny that ROH gives you a helluva lot more bang for your buck. They just gave you a 4-hour PPV for $15. WWE gives you a 3-hour PPV for $50.


----------



## SHIRLEY

BKKsoulcity said:


> Where the hell does this leave Eddie? I pray to god it isn't another Strong feud so this leaves him with Elgin but by the way things have been looking, he might have to put him over -.-


It leaves him going off to NOAH for 4-6 weeks, like he did last year, and coming back a better wrestler and an even more sympathetic character.


----------



## Beatles123

I enjoyed it. Really all people are complaining about are a few matches, but I think they built 2012 the way most here wanted them to.


----------



## BKKsoulcity

Shirley Crabtree III said:


> It leaves him going off to NOAH for 4-6 weeks, like he did last year, and coming back a better wrestler and an even more sympathetic character.


Hmm ..fair enough. I think it's a guarantee Steen will be World Champ soon enough so Eddie will probably jump into a title shot with him right after.


----------



## C-Cool

I liked the show overall, definitely became a bigger fan of a few of the wrestlers after tonight (Elgin, Corino, Steen, I liked Lethal's finishing move he did on Bennett, haven't seen it before from him, a few others).


----------



## bigbuxxx

Beatles123 said:


> I enjoyed it. Really all people are complaining about are a few matches, but I think they built 2012 the way most here wanted them to.


ok we got it from your 10 posts shilling/promoting/knobslobbing this show.


----------



## Beatles123

I understand--i know I seem like a mark, but for weeks all I heard was how shitty the PPV was going to be. After tonight, people should at least acknowledge that BOOKING WISE it gave them what they wanted....I was a bit too defensive of it, i know, but-it wasn't bad. Not nearly as bad as they said it would be.

Notably, DeeCee wanted something shocking to shake up 2012....well, I'd say he got it.


----------



## Mattyb2266

I for one am very pleased with the show, went on a bit too long but a lot of good aspects to the show, between hero, steen, the main event and even the tag title match, it was a hell of a show.


----------



## spiraltap

Final Battle is the reason I will never be a complete fan of ROH. Yeah there were good matches on it but it didn't feel like a year ending spectacular. No feuds ended on the show. There wasn't the culmination of anything spectacular like we had last year with Steen vs. Generico. It just felt like a filler show to get to the next show. Final Battle should be exactly that. A blow off to all the good feuds that have built up over the past year. Aside from those booking complaints the show was exhausting to sit through. I realize it was the same length as a Wrestlemania at four hours but good God they need to learn show pacing and structure. By the time the main event rolled around after the Steen/Corino match, everyone creaming their pants after Hero returned and whatever that Briscoes/WGTT tag title match was half the crowd was either asleep or on oxygen. Plus Davey vs. Eddie was the same thing they always do. Chain wrestling, no sell, beat the crap out of each other with chops slaps and kicks, no sell, insane and unneccessary bump to the outside, no sell, and a finish.


----------



## Beatles123

Steen will lead ROH into a glorious period, I can see it now.


----------



## peety14

kevin steen got in my face and told me to move so he can take the gaurd rail. Should i be mad?? lmao great show. I got my tickets for march 4th when they come back to ny. idk why but edie edwards keeps forcing to high five me at every roh event i been to this year lol nd he does it with force like he knows me and dont like me lol. still enjoyed the show and maria is bangin!! I missed most of that 3 way match just watchin her lol


----------



## flag sabbath

I must admit I'm intrigued to see this show. It's taken a pasting on sites that are usually quite generous when it comes to ROH.


----------



## Deebow

Decent show. Steen/Corino match was the MOTN. I thought Steen was seriously injured after that Superplex on the guard rail. That was extremely brutal. 

I lost interest in the main event about 15 minutes into the match. It just wouldn't end.


----------



## FITZ

Just got home. Pretty average show really. If it hadn't been for Steen I would have said it wasn't worth my time or money. 

Complain about the crowd all you want, when matches are just spots there is no reason to react to something that isn't a spot. 

And WGTT were getting booed before they even "turned heel." Thankfully ROH made the right call and had them turn or else they would have been horribly booed the whole match. 

If I can't get a $1 bus ticket from Philly and a cheap GA seat for the next show I don't think I will be going. If it wasn't for Steen I would have absolute zero interest in the company at this point.


----------



## bigbuxxx

just d/l'ed and watched the steen/corino match and richards/edwards matches. my first impression of the former is that corino should not be allowed in a hyped up singles match, he is terrible. my impression of the latter is that richards somehow made the ending of this match worse than the "you will always be my brother" ending @ BitW. i'm not a richards/edwards hater but sheesh that was terrible. saving the best for last obv, elgin vs tjp.


----------



## justabit2g

I gave up watching ROH on TV as it got pretty boring and decided to finally watch an ROH PPV to see how it was. First time I ever watched an ROH PPV and holy shit it was pretty good, albeit a bit violent in the Steen match.


----------



## KingKicks

KingCrash said:


> Was it worse then WGTT/Generico & Colt? Seems like a lot of people didn't like the show, thought most would think it was average at best with the main event being the polarizing thing again.


I've yet to see WGTT/Cabanerico but the match last night was one of the weirdest and stupidest booked matches I've ever seen in ROH. Me and a friend were watching and towards the end of the match, we were begging for it to end.

EDIT: Actually fuck just in ROH, make that ever,


----------



## Neutronic

Briscoes vs WGTT was amazing

Not only did they do a double-turn but 7 time Tag Champs!


----------



## natey2k4

Eddie > Davey. 

I said it.

PS. Jimmy Rave is the man.


----------



## Wrestling is Life

Time to share my thoughts on the show. It is important to note that I began feeling quite tired after intermission. I am not sure if I was feeling tired because the action was not as good, or if the action did not seem as good because I was tired. But either way, the first half of the show was better.

TJ Perkins vs Michael Elgin was probably my favorite match of the night. This match had a great small guy vs big guy dynamic but with a more modern twist, not to mention two of the coolest spots I have seen in some time. The right man won, but I hope for big things for TJ in 2012.

Tomasso Ciampa vs Jimmy Rave was another very fun match. I hated Ciampa when he first debuted, but he has reallt grown on me. Glad to finally see him get some competition since his matches on ROH TV have been against people we KNOW he will beat, and even though I did not believe Rave would win there was at least a chance of it. Rave looked good in my opinion, and it makes me wonder if we will see more of him since he did not exactly lose cleanly. I am all for Rave to help bolster the smallish roster.

Kevin Steen vs Steve Corino was not the all out brawl I was hoping for, but it was still a lot of fun. Seemed centered around the "holy shit" moments, and it had me saying just that on at least three occasions. Loved how they made us think Jacobs was going to turn when he got the chair in his hand. I kinda wanted Jacobs to turn and go with Steen, but I like that they toyed with us a bit about it. This match further made me realize that Kevin Steen may be my favorite character in pro wrestling today..he plays his part SO well. Glad to see they are doing more Steen/Generico since their PWG stuff has been AMAZING! 

The TV Title match was better than I expected. I have such mixed feelings about Mike Bennett. I love his character, especially now with Maria at his side, but more often than not I can't stand him in the ring. This ROH show had too much "classic heel" stuff from Bennett, Strong and The Embassy...this is ROH and I want clean, competitive matches for the most part. Lethal finally impressed me as I have not liked his ROH run this time around so far, probably because I hate how he came right in and took the title. By the end of the match I wanted Lethal to win, so he did something right. Generico in ROH is nothing compared to Generico in PWG, and I blame ROH booking for that because they have made him an afterthought.

The tag team gauntlet is when my sleepiness came about, and I think it is because I did not find the match that exciting. Sure there was some good action, but it dragged on for far too long. Really did not enjoy the gauntlet format...glad to see the Bucks win.

So glad to see Chris Hero back (even if for just one night), but the match just did not impress me. Too much heel stuff, not enough back and forth action.

The tag team title match was perhaps my least favorite match in ROH history...not to say there was not any good action, but it annoyed me beyond belief. The chair beatdown must have lasted over five minutes, in which time nobody came from the back (refs, wrestlers, officials) to stop it. Then they still had the match, at the leisure of when WGTT wanted to start, when the referee should have disqualified WGTT or just thrown the match out. But...despite being beat on with chairs for five solid minutes the Briscoes fought back...making the extreme contest between Steen/Corino and all those "injuries" look ridiculous. Jacobs needed medical attention after one package piledriver, but the briscoes fought back after thirty hits from a chair? This seems like TNA shit to me. Glad WGTT are heel now, but I really dislike them being in ROH. When they first arrived I was excited to see what they could do, but they have really really disappointed. Haas seemed super motivated in the beginning and I was kinda wishing he would eventually go singles since Shelton has not seemed motivated at all, but now I have had it with both of them. They should be better as heels I hope. 

Now I was tired AND in a bad mood....so my head was not into the main event like I would have liked. Still recognized it as being a great match because I personally enjoy their style of wrestling, but because of the sour taste left by the tag title match I just was not as invested as I would have liked. Was hoping for an Edwards win...the Steen stuff at the end was awesome!


----------



## Flux

I legit lol'ed at the CM Punk chants towards Maria. :lmao


----------



## Chismo

The WGTT/Briscoes match is the prime example of horrible, stupid and poor booking. Matches like that one turn fans away from companies, and ultimately - from wrestling in general.

This show was barely solid, the "Brilliant One" has too much booking power in this company.


----------



## BANKSY

Anti Christ of pro wrestling? Very original.


----------



## Manu_Styles

I was there at the Hammerstein last night (First ROH show) and it was a great show i don´t understand why is so much complain about it, but here there is always whatever ROH does , Steen vs Corino was crazy match but don´t in the card because the match and post match was so awesome that tired the crowd for the second half a bit.


----------



## flag sabbath

Just watched the first half:

*Elgin vs TJP:* An action-packed opener with some amazing exchanges & some awkward ones. If Elgin is to be the future of anything, he badly needs a haircut. ***1/2*

*Ciampa vs Rave:* Fine for its place on the card, but Ciampa isn't over in the slightest & this didn't him help any. ****

*Lethal vs Generico vs Bennett:* Some decent wrestling & a great final flurry from Generico, but the half-hearted crowd dragged it down a notch or two ***3/4*

*Steen vs Corino:* A slow, vicious brawl with lots of big pops for the crazy spots, but ZERO sustained heat - ROH desperately needs to work on getting its audience back into its storylines. Steen is a man at the top of his game & streets ahead of the rest of the roster personality-wise. I've no idea why he still feels the need to take such ridiculous risks. ***3/4*


----------



## Legend

I lost the will to live after the Tag Team Gauntlet and went bed. Doesn't sound like I missed anything.


----------



## Concrete

I enjoyed the card as a whole aside from the tag title match. The match was just bad. If you were able to find quality in it, more power to you but I just couldn't do it. I liked the double turn but that was the only thing good about it to me. The beatdown was ridiculous. I just sat there wondering when it would be over. Then the match just started out of nowhere. Why? There was no reason to start the match at all let alone a random moment during the beatdown. And then the Briscoes come back somehow. 
All the other matches I found at least some enjoyment out of, Steen vs Corino being my favorite match of the night. I would give the World Title match between ***3/4 but that may be because I felt the second match was too similar. I can't hate it for having a lot of action but the fact that they brought in Dan Severn and the story was that Edwards had been taught by the best to master the dragon sleeper and Davey Richards breaks it like it was a damn chinlock. What sense does that make? Then it was the same match from BITW in my opinion but not exacuted as well. Steen came out after the match and I was really expecting some brawling but it didn't happen so I had to settle for him saying that he is coming for the belt. It will be interesting to see what Steen does between now and when ROH's poster boy battles the Antichrist of Professional Wrestling.


----------



## The CRA1GER

enlightenedone9 said:


> I enjoyed the card as a whole aside from the tag title match. The match was just bad. If you were able to find quality in it, more power to you but I just couldn't do it. I liked the double turn but that was the only thing good about it to me. The beatdown was ridiculous. I just sat there wondering when it would be over. Then the match just started out of nowhere. Why? There was no reason to start the match at all let alone a random moment during the beatdown. And then the Briscoes come back somehow.
> All the other matches I found at least some enjoyment out of, Steen vs Corino being my favorite match of the night. I would give the World Title match between ***3/4 but that may be because I felt the second match was too similar. I can't hate it for having a lot of action but the fact that they brought in Dan Severn and the story was that Edwards had been taught by the best to master the dragon sleeper and Davey Richards breaks it like it was a damn chinlock. What sense does that make? Then it was the same match from BITW in my opinion but not exacuted as well. Steen came out after the match and I was really expecting some brawling but it didn't happen so I had to settle for him saying that he is coming for the belt. It will be interesting to see what Steen does between now and when ROH's poster boy battles the Antichrist of Professional Wrestling.


I agree with you about the tag match. The double turn was good, but I feel with the pre match beating the match probably should have never started. I would have been happy with the ref never started the match. The first half of the show was paced better than the second half. The second half seemed to drag a bit. I loved the ending with Steen confronting Davey. That should be an awesome fued.


----------



## Striketeam

Never watched ROH before but watched the Steen/Corino match and wow that was awesome stuff. I also liked his promo at the end of the show and if anyone could get me interested in Ring Of Honor it would be Kevin Steen.


----------



## Mike J Cab00se

good show overall. I had fun being there and i loved the steen/corino match, but the main event was very boring and not as good as Best In The World 2011. Also, the tag team title match had too many unprotected head shots and it made no sence why the ref took 20 minutes to start the match and didn't disqualify WGTT.


----------



## DTB1986

My biggest problem for this show was the way they mic'ed the ring. You could barely hear the crowd, you couldn't here any of the chops, kicks or forearms. You couldn't hear Eddie yelling "Davey!" or any other taunts. All you could hear were the bumps and the announcers. They need to fix the way they mix the audio because it really took away from all of the matches and the excitement of the event.


----------



## seabs

*Abysmal show. So sad but I think that's the final nail in my coffin for following ROH on a show to show basis and caring. Last show from top to bottom I watch from them unless things drastically change. I'll just stick to the odd match here and there that gets praised from people I know have similar tastes.

Want to talk rant first about the production. First off they managed to make the Hammerstein not feel like the Hammerstein and the lighting for shows is so annoying. That's bad but the camera and mic work for this show was simply unacceptable. The crowd was quiet anyway but you could still tell they were badly miced. Nobody fucking miced the ringside arear either which is minor league of them it's unreal. On top of that they then even showed shots of Steen talking into camera but there was no sound because nothing ringside was miced and when he was absuing Cornette you couldn't here him either. Then the camera work. Words fail me that a company with a TV deal can't perform live filming of a wrestling show. There were spots missed in every single match and it's not even funny how many spots they just totally missed altogether. Way too many to list and give examples. Some idiot found the zoom button on their camera and decided to zooooom in and out for no reason other than they could and there was shaky camera shots. Seriously I've seen house show matches recorded from someone in the 3rd row that were better filmed than this show was. Also they can't figure out how to show a replay or how to dub commentary out of the replays they did manage to show. That said though slow motion Kevin Kelly was a highlight. 

Elgin/TJP was a fun opener and the 2 spots where TJP did somersault dives and Elgin caught him mid flip were nuts, especially the blockbuster he caught. Good match but in no way did I expect it to end up being MOTN.

Ciampa/Rave was boring. Rave's look was poor. Not just the facial hair but the gear too. "Jimmy Rave approved"? Awful. Yet another really boring Ciampa match in which he achieved or proved nothing. Not saying he's bad but he never gives me anything to go off. Generic look and the only semi original thing about him seems to be that he does combinations of moves joined together to make a new awkward looking move.

3 way was abysmal. Really badly worked match and mainly due to Lethal. Maria looked incredible but they brought her in and then she didn't really do anything which sucked. Guessing judging by that it was just a one shot deal. Sucks. They did the generic WWE 3 way with 2 in, 1 out but did it really poorly. They kept rotating every few minutes so nobody could get any chemistry going or get the crowd to care. If you're gonna do that formula then you need a big spot to eliminate the guy on the outside like at Mania XX rather than just one guy falls to the outside and comes back a few minutes later to knock a different guy to the floor. Lethal was really bad. Sloppy, didn't look like he cared a whole lot and he got loads of air on a lot of his moves. Bennett was fine and I enjoyed him at the start being a chicken heel but then it never got going. Bob is such a pointless manager. Just stands at ringside before he has a spot. Doesn't add any extra heat to Bennett or get the crowd involved in a match. Finish was bad. Wrong guy won. Really anti climatic finish.

Steen/Corino was a bundle of disappointments merged together to make one big disappointment. Badly worked match and either worse booking. There was no real hate between them and it was just spots. That can work if they're structured together, you make them seem important and the match has a good pace to it. This had none of them sadly. They spent a lot of time early on setting stuff up and the spots weren't all that great anyway. The suplex onto the rail looked brutal but then Steen kicked out and went back to doing his spots and didn't sell his back. Same for the table spot. He just got back up, kicked out and did some spots. Never once sold being suplexed from the top rope onto a metal rail or being pushed off the top rope to the floor through stacked chairs and a table. Poor execution of that spot too with Steen just taking his own fall through them. PP through chairs was a good spot I guess but I've seen so many guys in ROH suplexed onto chairs and it's never a big deal so why should I care now? Steen kicked out of so many spots it was stupid and everytime he just got back up, didn't sell anything and then won. Jacobs' ref gear was the best ref gear ever.

Booking was some of the worst for all year for this match. No turn for anyone was really poor and Steen winning and kicking out of loads of stuff presented him as the babyface and that he earned his way back in ROH on merit which goes against basically everything involving the angle and his character. Cornette seems like a total fool now for letting "the anti-christ" back in without being outsmarted. Steen's supposed to be anti-ROH and hates everything about the company and is supposedly this evil person and the biggest heel in their history yet nobody boos him. It was obvious nobody would so why bother bringing him back and putting him in the wrong role a second time around. I guess it's not their fault nobody will boo him but they know nobody will just go with it and make him a face. They're in a no win situation though because the fans only boo guys they don't want to see these days in ROH so you can't get heels over and make people care about feuds. I've loved Steen and Generico's angle in ROH in 2010 and their PWG matches this year but I'm not sure I can be excited at seeing them work with each other again next year. 2 years already of them working against each other and although they'll surely have some great stuff with each other I'd prefer something fresh. Fuck em if they do a big injury angle with Generico and keep him off shows next year. That'd be rally stupid in their current climate.

Gauntlet tag was exactly how I expected it. Combination of average tag matches. Coleman/Alexander got a win which was a positive. I can never figure out these days if Bravado's have turned babyface or not. I guess nobody cares about which is a shame cause they were the best heels they had at one point this year.

Strong/Hero was decent but forgettable like nearly every Strong in the last 18 months has been. Strong went over so I guess that means Hero isn't back for good.

I didn't think Briscoes/WGTT was as bad as other seem to reading over the thread. Wasn't a great match by any means but it was better than their others. I don't think the intention was for WGTT to turn heel actually. Kelly refused to give them any heat, they still worked parts of the match as babyfaces and Shelton didn't do anything all that heelish. I think it was just Haas who reacted to the heat and started to heel it up. Briscoes were over when they came out and WGTT didn't get much of a reaction bar a small dose of boos. WGTT attacking them with chairs ala BITW was a neat callback spot and I think it was meant to get a babyface reaction for them and make them look like badasses but Briscoes were more over than they were so it backfired. Shelton's botch in amidst all the heat was funny. They actually worked a decent beatdown tbf. Pretty stupid how the ref wouldn't start the match during it all though even when they got back in the ring. Nigel screaming at Briscoes to protect themselves was amazing. Once the bell did ring they never really worked a match, just played for time before the finish. The thing with Shelton's ribs and being taken to the back to leave Haas 2 on 1 was a total babyface spot, again hence why I don't think the plan was to turn them. The plank of wood spot looked lame because of how easily the pane split in a nice even line. Duggan chant made me smirk. Not because the smarky NY fans came up with a creative chant that put themselves over but because it reminded me of how much more over Jim Duggan is than anyone else in ROH even in 2011. There's a reason why he is btw but that's a whole other rant. Just go watch Duggan in Mid South from the 80's fanboys. Finish was bad. If WGTT were supposed to turn heel then it would have made more sense for them to retain and get heat from winning. Not a good match but still better than their previous matches and better than a number of matches on this show alone.

Richards/Edwards was abysmal. One of the worst matches I've seen this year. 1st half was so boring when they were just doing .... stuff. They did submissions but never targeted a body part to build to a submission later in the match. Load of build around Severn and the dragon sleeper that was wasted. Eddie supposedly mastered the move but then the one he did without the leg vice looked more like a lazy hug than a submission move. Then they got to a random point when it went from being boring to being boring and actively horrible. At BITW they managed to work a good main event style match with a good atmosphere and a big match feel. Some of the spots were a tad stupid but at least they did some big stuff in that match to make it feel important like the table bump. They didn't do anything like that in this one. Just the most aimless wrestling I've ever seen. If you are gonna work that match then you HAVE to have a hot crowd and a big match atmosphere for it to just be bearable, let alone good. The crowd didn't care and the atmosphere was non existent. They literally went through EVERYTHING that is bad about current wrestling scene and exaggerated it by ten. Doing a suplex off the top rope and then going straight into another move is stupid because a suplex from the top rope should hurt both men so that's a stupid spot anyway. A double suplex over the ropes is stupid as well because it hurts the person starting the move more than the other guy, or at least it looks that way. Combining the two together? I shed a tear. Then they did the horrible I suplex you and no sell it spot and so on. In Suwama/Akiyama it worked because it was a big match and they paced the match right and did it at the exact correct moment. The superkick exchange in Bucks/FS at Steen Wolf worked because the crowd popped huge for every kick. You see what I'm getting at for these things to work. Only positive was that Eddie's a really good babyface for sympathy and it added a bit more to his Die Hard character by him not staying down but it wasn't an even trade off by any stretch of the imagination. Appalling match. Well and truly the final nail in my ROH viewing coffin.

Nigel's commentary for the last 2 matches was really fucking good btw. He got really fucking passionate and did his upmost to sell the main event as being amazing and putting the match over. Loved the hell out of him begging for guys to protect themselves. Only downside was a few of his lines were a bit too true but not in the way that he meant them. "2012 is gonna be a horrible year for ROH" after Steen was reinstated. Sadly it probably will be. "The crowd just don't care about Haas anymore". Yeah. "I don't think either team cares about the belts at this point" I get his point but it was sadly true. The tag belts got really downgraded at this show. Poor match and neither team cared at all about winning the belts. Davey just tossing his title away when Sinclair awarded it him sucked too. And finally my favourite of the night, "and Mark Briscoe's an intelligent guy". I'll miss you Nigel.

Highlights of the show? Elgin catching TJP in awkward positions, MARIA, Nigel's commentary and Jimmy's amazing referee gear. 

*


----------



## antoniomare007

DTB1986 said:


> My biggest problem for this show was the way they mic'ed the ring. You could barely hear the crowd, you couldn't here any of the chops, kicks or forearms. You couldn't hear Eddie yelling "Davey!" or any other taunts. All you could hear were the bumps and the announcers. They need to fix the way they mix the audio because it really took away from all of the matches and the excitement of the event.


they've had this problems for a couple of years now, it's one of the main reason I don't watch ROH unless it's a big match.


----------



## bigbuxxx

> ROH has stated that if Chris Hero ultimately does not sign with WWE, they would love to have him. Hero kept his appearance quiet from everyone. Despite not signing with ROH, he has an open door to work with the company.


from wrestlingnews


----------



## Obfuscation

Another one bites the dust it seems. Quite the review/rant Seabs. Hard to believe you lasted this long honestly. I have most of those feelings by the time 2009 came around. Not their worst year, I know, but the interest and product felt down by that time. Maybe what I saw where just off shows. If ANYTHING though, this event has completely made me think that going away from the product minus a few matches this year, was indeed the _right_ thing to do. I can't fathom sitting through those last two matches thanks to how horrible they sound. I'm gonna cringe whenever I see the length for them. 

It's too bad. You'd think ROH would want to try and make fans out of us again(I know I didn't see it, but fuck, look at the feedback) and it seemed they failed. Big time. In about the worst way they could have. Well, I've had this mindset for a few years now, but ROH thanks for the wrestling and the memories. I'll hold the entertainment you brought me via the events I own on DVD. I'm done with ya now.


----------



## Emperor DC

It's not ROH's fault, it was Davey and Eddie's fault, and the fault of the people that compete in these matches, like WGTT and your famed Briscoes. They set out the matches and as vets, are allowed to do what they want. They choose to do this, so let's not blame the company as a whole.

Least we forget the booking of said event was good in general, the right people went over in the first half, Steen got reinstated and it all built to the conclusion and Steen's warning that he was coming back for the title.


----------



## Coffey

The company as a whole is to blame though, from the booking, to the matches, to the production. It was a group effort all around.

For me, I just can't buy into the new "style" that is Ring of Honor. Every match trying to be some "epic" match it just makes them all sort of feel the same, ya know? It didn't used to feel that way. 2005 in ROH for example was incredible.

Plus, just look at the roster. Eddie Edwards, Davey Richards, Roderick Strong, El Generico, Jay Lethal, Kevin Steen, Michael Elgin, Tommaso Ciampa, Mike Bennett, ...that's a far cry from Bryan Danielson, Homicide, James Gibson, Samoa Joe, C.M. Punk, Low Ki, Austin Aries, Colt Cabana, Paul London and Spanky.


----------



## wildpegasus

I really, really love the charactor development of Edwards in the main event. With Davey's excellent promo from the last video wire and afterwards on the mic at Final Battle, I'm tremendously excited to see what's coming of that. It's something I can't ever remember seeing before in wrestling done quite this way. Also, this match did and will do a great job of making the fans more into Eddie. Davey did a great job at the end of making this happen and it's interesting to see where all this is taking him. Eddi's Diehard gimmick is also even more cemented now. I enjoyed the match a lot. I'm alos interested



Steen was a lot of fun too and I loved El Generico coming down to confront him


----------



## Obfuscation

Well Generico & Steen are talents worthy of being grouped with the "golden years" class. Strong too in terms of overall career. Lately the booking and stuff with him in ROH has been fairly lacking though. Doesn't deny that he was one of the greats in those days too.


----------



## Coffey

Strong has never been good. He was tolerable when teaming with Aries, but he was still the weak point. Just doing Backbreakers and loud chops sure as hell didn't make him good. He's bland as fuck and always has been.


----------



## Obfuscation

Yeah, obviously I highly disagree.


----------



## seabs

DeeCee said:


> It's not ROH's fault, it was Davey and Eddie's fault, and the fault of the people that compete in these matches, like WGTT and your famed Briscoes. They set out the matches and as vets, are allowed to do what they want. They choose to do this, so let's not blame the company as a whole.
> 
> Least we forget the booking of said event was good in general, the right people went over in the first half, Steen got reinstated and it all built to the conclusion and Steen's warning that he was coming back for the title.


*Does anyone know who actually lays the matches out in ROH? Agents or the guys themselves? No guess work.

Disagree on the booking being good. Bennett should have beat Lethal and then the Steen/Corino match was really badly booked in terms of the match and wasting a huge moment. Regardless of how the WGTT/Briscoes match was supposed to go that was poorly booked too in terms of defining a face/heel dynamic and laying a logical match out. *


----------



## flag sabbath

The Briscoes heel turn was a complete joke too. Their streetfight with ANX had Jay & Mark dishing out high fives & seeking fan approval, then explicitly acting out a racist lynching.


----------



## scrilla

I agree about the WGTT/Briscoes thing. when I first watched it last night I felt that it was designed to be a double turn, but Kevin Kelly's reaction was puzzling me. I think the crowd reaction is what really made me think it was a designed double turn as well. however the more I thought about it the more I realized that Shelton's injury angle then return was completely babyface and the commentary was like that because it wasn't designed to be a heel turn. it just came across as a badly booked clusterfuck double turn at the time. 

I guess it was done for the babyfaces to get revenge on the Briscoes, but it was poorly executed and just made them come off really heelish. Haas started going with the crowd and acting heelish as well so hopefully ROH does turn them. otherwise it'd be really stupid to try and continue to shove them down peoples throats as babyfaces. they clearly aren't over. tbh they had to nearly kill Jay Briscoe to even get any reaction at all. that could have just been the bad micing of the crowd though.


----------



## Chismo

The situation with WGTT and The Briscoes from last night is exactly what you get with 10 months of horrible booking in tag team division. I mean, they gave this super mega uber face push to a babyface team who's not even over with crowds, they were keeping The Briscoes heels even after every single crowd cheered them, they raped the ANX/Briscoes feud (for example, those SBG matches for title shots event after ANX already earned their title shot in Ladder War against - The Briscoes), they spoiled the outcome of WGTT/ANX Glory By Honor match because of stupid inconsistency caused by TV tapings, etc. 

ROH deserves every fucking criticism right now for their poor booking, especially in the Tag division. Hopefully The Briscoes make good champs, and feud with Future Shock and Young Bucks.


----------



## Legend

They should make The Briscoes, ANX, Future Shock and The Young Bucks the 'Fabulous Four' (boxing fans will know what I'm talking about) of the company, and just have them tear the house down with each other throughout the year in a desperate effort to restore some prestige to the division.


----------



## TankOfRate

I can't be mad at them because of differences between today's roster and the rosters from years past. Things have to change at some point, and the existence of WWE and TNA isn't going to help in that regard either. I think the biggest problem they have is that they're slowly losing their identity, which is the exact same reason TNA went to shits. The Sinclair shows and FB have been so disappointing to me because it feels like they've lost their whole "We are GENUINELY different" appeal and it just feels so underwhelming. It doesn't feel youthful and gritty anymore; it just feels like another wrestling show. And not even a good one to make up for it.

Last night was extremely disappointing, and the timing is terrible because they have so much to prove right now. Most of the matches fell short for me and the subpar production just made the show even less energetic. Seabs was pretty spot on with his rant on it. I think I'm most disappointed by the Briscoes match because I absolutely love those two and they're one of the best things about ROH right now. Just so poorly done, and considering the incredible 'Cosmetically Pleasing' promo, I was expecting to be blown away. Abysmal booking and just a poor match. I'm glad the titles are off of WGTT though, I guess that's a positive. Not a fan of either of those two, hopefully with the Briscoes as champs, the tag division gains some momentum. 

Lethal has been pretty disappointing so far too. His work lately has been lazy and uninspired. I'm a huge fan of his and I was expecting so much more of him. I think the title should have gone onto Bennett. I don't see much else happening with Lethal as a champion and the heat he would have gotten during his post-match celebration with Maria would have been a thing of pure beauty.

I haven't got much else to add to Richards/Edwards that hasn't already been said, but seriously fellas: less is more.

Bar the Steen stuff and Mike Bennett (mostly for Maria) FB just didn't do it for me. I don't know what it is, but I just cannot connect with the current state of things. I wouldn't say I'm ready to give up on them just yet. I hope they're just trying to adjust to this whole Sinclair thing and hopefully business picks up soon, but if not, then whatever, I guess I'm done. To be honest, I think adding a legit Women of Honor division would be one of the few things that could rekindle my interest any time soon. As far as independent wrestling goes right now, I'm 100x more interested into the women's side of things. Hopefully the stuff Mia Yim and SDR have been talking about actually pans out.

Maria and the chants she got, Jimmy's ref gear (*splooge*), Nigel's great commentary and Steen being Steen were the highlights for me. Apart from that, FB was a dud.


----------



## sbuch

lol I was going to actually watch this show, my first ROH show ever (I've just seen some past matches from early ROH), but after reading some of these posts esp Seabs, I have zero interest and will continue to ignore ROH so thanks for saving me like two hours of my time!


----------



## heyman deciple

I not really going to bash the show, I am however going to bash these online wrestling critics for pissing and moaning about the chair shots.

These are the same fucking people that probably jizzed in their pants to Mick Foley and Undertaker Hell in A Cell and now all bitch about chair shots like they're apart of the business.

Newsflash most of you have never taken a bump other than Bryan & Vinny, you're not part of any locker room, you've never made one dime in the wrestling business. Maybe you've made money off the wrestling business but that's something completely different.

If wrestlers want to make the decision to take chairshots unprotected or otherwise it's their call and I'll respect that.

Stop pretending your some moral majority. Your a fucking fan just like the rest of us.

You didn't see this kind of outrage when Brody was fucking stabbed and killed in his own locker room or when Owen Hart died on live PPV but anytime there's a chairshot these online critics get on their soapbox.

FUCK OFF, I don't want anybody to get hurt but this is a violent, business. Shit happens.

As for the show, Eh. Bennett and Maria were awesomeness. Bennett should have won, the whole time limit gimmick their determined to shove down my throat works better for a heel anyway. Glad to see Rave back, Happier than a pig in shit Steen is back to rip shit up.

But I'm fearful this will lead to more Cornette TV time, I love Jimmy but he tends to feature himself WAY too much.

He did it in OVW and he's doing it here. Let's let the wrestlers be the stars of the show some of them are more than capable.


----------



## Concrete

The reason some complain about unprotected chair shots because we now know as a society a lot more about concussions. Unprotected chair shots increase the chances greatly of getting a concussion. In the NFL you aren't allowed to have head to head contact for a reason.


----------



## Phenomenal Clash

I liked every match except for the tag gauntlet (Just get rid of the Bravados and Caprice and Coleman, both those teams are terrible), and the world title match. I don't enjoy Eddie and Davey's style of wrestling. Way too many kicks and chops for me to get into it. Also, terrible finish to the match.


----------



## Chismo

sbuch said:


> lol I was going to actually watch this show, my first ROH show ever (I've just seen some past matches from early ROH), but after reading some of these posts esp Seabs, I have zero interest and will continue to ignore ROH *so thanks for saving me like two hours of my time!*


Try with four.


----------



## topper1

sbuch said:


> lol I was going to actually watch this show, my first ROH show ever (I've just seen some past matches from early ROH), but after reading some of these posts esp Seabs, I have zero interest and will continue to ignore ROH so thanks for saving me like two hours of my time!


If you don't mind watching old stuff I think everyone here would agree that most the stuff between 05 - 08 is top notch and you will also see a few guys you might know from current WWE like CM Punk and Bryan Danielson.


----------



## heyman deciple

topper1 said:


> If you don't mind watching old stuff I think everyone here would agree that most the stuff between 05 - 08 is top notch and you will also see a few guys you might know from current WWE like CM Punk and Bryan Danielson.


The first ROH purchase I ever made was the Triple Shot weekend in 06 (Dragon Gate Challenge, Supercard Of Honor, Better Than Our Best) In one weekend ROH churned out 3 must see shows and then there was last night that arguably didn't even churn out one must see match or even one must see moment depending how hot you find Maria (very hot) or how much your into Kevin Steen (very very much)

Yeah if your trying to get into ROH some of the older stuff seems to be the way to go.


----------



## Neutronic

Is it just me

Or has hating ROH become the new cool thing since the TV Deal?

The IWC perpetually turns on anything that finds success


----------



## topper1

Neutronic said:


> Is it just me
> 
> Or has hating ROH become the new cool thing since the TV Deal?
> 
> The IWC perpetually turns on anything that finds success


I don't hate on anything that I enjoy I thought ROH was doing damn good in 2010 and even the start of 2011 after the awful 2009 they had. They have been pure shit since Sinclare not a single match of note and a lot of rematches of crappy matches since there roster is so thin at the moment.


----------



## Obfuscation

Pretty sure ROH hate comes from it sucking more than anything.

CM Punk is successful and I still am a huge fan. I'm a John Cena fan still. That's a perfect example at how I don't let success dictate whether or not I dislike something. Flimsy excuse anyways. Not everyone is an idiot and decides to go along with things. I've been done with ROH for a few years now. It's only until this year where it seems most others are starting to be burnt out. I wouldn't exactly call that "a fad" as much as fans realizing it isn't the same company anymore.


----------



## jawbreaker

I was actually enjoying the show a whole lot up until the last two matches. I wanted to be wrong, I wanted WGTT and the Briscoes to tear the house down, I wanted Richards and Edwards to blow people away, I wanted a MOTYC. I wanted to love ROH again.

They made it impossible.

Let's start with the good: Steen's back, and Hero might be too!

I finally saw something out of Elgin that made me have legitimate hope for him. TJP is a total bump maniac which is great, but Elgin was the star here. His execution and power shit has always been great, but here he actually did a real good job of playing the monster heel. Perkins actually worked a story in for once too which is good because it kind of justifies the soft spot I have for the guy.

Rhett Titus is becoming a really really good wrestler and nobody seems to notice. His selling of the knee was excellent and the Bucks targeting it was great. The heel Bucks are so fucking fantastic. Loved the finish of the tag gauntlet, nice change from superkicks or MBFYB or a cheap rollup. Made the Bucks look both mean and competent, which is crucial to them getting over as heels.

Steen at the end of the show, particularly Davey not getting a chance to respond (and thereby burying the impact of the promo).

Jimmy's ref outfit, man.

Maria is still really pretty and actually adds quite a bit to Bennett's act.

RD Evans needs more mic time. On every show. Best talker in the company by miles, and that includes Steen.

Haas and Benjamin aren't the champs any more.


Now the mediocre but still worth commenting on:

Rave looked okay. Not great, but okay. I've seen Ciampa much better, but this was far from offensive.

Steen/Corino had some really nasty spots and had me in suspense the whole time, but all of Seabs' criticisms are spot on. Not a good match, but fun to watch not knowing the outcome. Very WWE-style.

The three-way was just kind of there. This is what they have Generico doing?


And finally, the bad:

If Rave had turned I could have been kind of interested in the Embassy. He didn't, and I don't really want to see him feud with Ciampa.

How the fuck did nobody turn in the Steen/Corino match? If Cabana returns as a heel it'll almost be okay, but for the love of god how did they let that happen? Jacobs has gotten no time to establish a character, he just stands next to Corino and shakes his head. He's not interesting, and if he doesn't turn what's the point of having him there?

Generico coming out to fight Steen kind of makes sense but at the same time I've seen enough of it between ROH last year and PWG this year. I really hope that's not what they use Steen for.

The first three bits of the tag gauntlet were dreadful. Coleman and Alexander really aren't all that good and didn't do anything to get me interested. Cole and O'Reilly seemed kind of off their game as well. The gauntlet format didn't do anything to help anyone, because they never really had a chance to build to a finish without overshadowing the next match. What they should have done was have the Bucks come out third, beat Coleman and Alexander easily, destroy Titus' knee, and then have a sprint with Future Shock. The way it was executed jumbled it really poorly, and as a whole it was really basic and horribly placed on the card. Elgin/TJP or even Strong/Hero should have gone here the way they booked it.

That tag title match. My god. Worst match of the year in a landslide, probably the worst I've ever seen where everyone was an actual wrestler. Awful, awful, awful piece of shit that everyone involved, including the bookers who made it happen, should be ashamed of.

Anyone who says the fans had anything to do with it is missing the point. The match was horribly built, and everyone should have anticipated the fan reaction. Let's look at the circumstances: WGTT are rapidly losing popularity as people get bored of them, as happens to just about every long-term champ in ROH. They obviously aren't helping by turning in awful performances each time out. The Briscoes turned in a double turn and were not booked nearly as strongly heel as they needed to be to get over as heels. Having them face the Bravados is not going to get fans to boo them. They got cheered just as much as the ANX during the Ladder War, and then Jay cut all those really good babyface promos and if there's anyone didn't think the fans were going to cheer the Briscoes, they're stupid. If anyone tries to play it as the fans turning on WGTT because they were successful, they're stupid. The Briscoes were booked terribly and didn't help the matter themselves by cutting those great promos.

And no, there was no double turn. At least, they didn't plan one. The WGTT attacking the Briscoes before the match was supposed to get a face reaction, like the bad guys were getting what they deserved. Haas, to his credit, tried to change it on the fly, but the beatdown dragged on and on and on and never evolved. The one fan who yelled "that same fucking move, you know we all hate it!" when Haas and Benjamin did that stupid move where Shelton jumps over Haas and lands on the opponent made me smirk, and then I actually burst out laughing when they fucking botched it. Don't ever change, WGTT.

Regardless, the prematch beatdown would have been okay if they'd actually planned a double turn, because the crowd was so incredibly behind the Briscoes that a simple STF match would have been fantastic. But they clearly didn't prepare for the reaction, and it became blatantly obvious when the bell rang. They actually tried to do an injured partner makes dramatic return story with WGTT. I couldn't believe it when I saw Shelton start to sell his ribs, because they just turned heel, right? Wrong, apparently, because Haas and Benjamin worked the whole match babyface and tried to act like they were megafaces when the crowd wanted them to get the fuck out.

Also the Briscoes wrestled the same shit they always do regardless of alignment. It works when they've got an underdog face team who can get the crowd behind them on the other side (Future Shock in Atlanta, anyone?) but when you've got fucking WGTT it's dreadful. Nobody had any idea if they were supposed to be heels or faces, not even themselves. It also had the absolute worst bend-over-and-get-kicked-in-the-face spot I've ever seen.

I seriously cannot fathom why this match was allowed to happen the way it did. A double turn might have worked, and it seems like that's where they're going to go, but then it became obvious that that was all improvised and it devolved into actual hilarity. Also, the Briscoes with the tag titles has been done to death and isn't interesting any more, regardless of their character, and they are by far the team that least needed the rub from taking the belts of WGTT. I really can't stress enough how poorly booked this match was, and then it was executed just as poorly. A fucking embarrassment.

And then as if that match didn't kill my interest enough, we get to the main event. I could not get interested in this match at all, because they gave me no reason to. There was actually a clear-cut story heading in, it had progressed from BITW, and they did nothing with hit. No heat, no heelish tactics from Eddie, not even any awkwardly shoehorned in "character" spots like the dragon screw in the ropes at BITW. It was a series of moves that weren't joined together well, didn't look particularly impressive, and went on way too long. All they did to play off the build was a couple dragon sleeper spots that didn't look good and got almost no reactions from the crowd.

And then there was the HOT run-in. Ugh. Why did Strong run in? That makes no sense. What does he stand to gain from that? Roddy's character isn't the kind that needs the spotlight, and he doesn't need to ruin the main event to get attention. And then Team Richards and Severn ran off Strong, Truth, and Elgin together, which didn't make sense because weren't they supposed to be on opposite sides? Was that supposed to be the reunion of the Wolves? The fuck? And don't even get me started on Severn beating the shit out of Elgin. Way to make the guy who just won SOTF look like shit. Goddamn.

And then there was the finish, which was supposed to be epic I guess? It wasn't, of course. Eddie had already been established as a top contender by holding the fucking belt, so him kicking out of all those things didn't impress anyone, nor, because of the manner it was executed in, did anyone think Edwards was coming back. It was drawn out way too long, it didn't look good, didn't get much of a reaction, and it didn't make a lot of sense. That's really the match in a nutshell.

A friend of mine who is a casual indy fan remarked to me while we were discussing the show that "Davey Richards couldn't sell food to Ethiopians". Which is sad because he's definitely capable of selling, he knows how, he just at some point apparently decided that nobody wants to see him do that.

I'd rant a whole lot more, but I don't feel like I need to convince anyone, which is a really nice change from BITW. Hopefully ROH will actually notice that people who used to love their product are starting to hate it and actually make some changes. It's all coming to a head now.

Star ratings for the fuck of it:

Elgin/TJP: ***1/2
Rave/Ciampa: **1/2
Generico/Bennett/Lethal: **1/4
Steen/Corino: ***1/2
Tag gauntlet: **1/4 (*1/2, **1/4, **1/2, ***)
Strong/Hero: ***
Briscoes/WGTT: -*****
Edwards/Richards: DUD


----------



## flag sabbath

Neutronic said:


> Is it just me
> 
> Or has hating ROH become the new cool thing since the TV Deal?
> 
> The IWC perpetually turns on anything that finds success


I love this idea that certain fans secretly enjoy watching a promotion, but lie about it online to impress 'community' members they don't know & will never meet.


----------



## FITZ

Neutronic said:


> Is it just me
> 
> Or has hating ROH become the new cool thing since the TV Deal?
> 
> The IWC perpetually turns on anything that finds success


I was trying really hard not to hop on the anti-ROH bandwagon but last night's complete mediocrity for their biggest show of the year has me on it.


----------



## seabs

sbuch said:


> lol I was going to actually watch this show, my first ROH show ever (I've just seen some past matches from early ROH), but after reading some of these posts esp Seabs, I have zero interest and will continue to ignore ROH so thanks for saving me like two hours of my time!


*One of the best things you can do as a guy who actually enjoys wrestling not as a soap form is to get into ROH. The current product is in a rut right now but like topper said 05-08 is one of the best periods ever for a US promotion. Can't recommend it enough. The angles are really get into and they explain them well and put them over each show so you can dive in and out and still feel in the loop and there should be more than enough familiar faces from WWE and TNA to ease you in.*


heyman deciple said:


> I not really going to bash the show, I am however going to bash these online wrestling critics for pissing and moaning about the chair shots.
> 
> These are the same fucking people that probably jizzed in their pants to Mick Foley and Undertaker Hell in A Cell and now all bitch about chair shots like they're apart of the business.
> 
> Newsflash most of you have never taken a bump other than Bryan & Vinny, you're not part of any locker room, you've never made one dime in the wrestling business. Maybe you've made money off the wrestling business but that's something completely different.
> 
> If wrestlers want to make the decision to take chairshots unprotected or otherwise it's their call and I'll respect that.
> 
> Stop pretending your some moral majority. Your a fucking fan just like the rest of us.
> 
> You didn't see this kind of outrage when Brody was fucking stabbed and killed in his own locker room or when Owen Hart died on live PPV but anytime there's a chairshot these online critics get on their soapbox.
> 
> FUCK OFF, I don't want anybody to get hurt but this is a violent, business. Shit happens.


*Chris Nowinski happened.*


Phenomenal Clash said:


> I liked every match except for the tag gauntlet (Just get rid of the Bravados and Caprice and Coleman, both those teams are terrible), and the world title match. I don't enjoy Eddie and Davey's style of wrestling. Way too many kicks and chops for me to get into it. Also, terrible finish to the match.


*Bravado's are actually a great little heel team, they just book them and present them as though they are terrible. Try and see their matches with FS and their promo from the Canada show this year. That promo was every bit as good as any of the Briscoes promos thie year.*


Neutronic said:


> Is it just me
> 
> Or has hating ROH become the new cool thing since the TV Deal?
> 
> The IWC perpetually turns on anything that finds success


*Ugh. I hate posts like this. No offence intended to you though. *


jawbreaker said:


> I was actually enjoying the show a whole lot up until the last two matches. I wanted to be wrong, I wanted WGTT and the Briscoes to tear the house down, I wanted Richards and Edwards to blow people away, I wanted a MOTYC. I wanted to love ROH again.
> 
> They made it impossible.
> 
> Let's start with the good: Steen's back, and Hero might be too!
> 
> I finally saw something out of Elgin that made me have legitimate hope for him. TJP is a total bump maniac which is great, but Elgin was the star here. His execution and power shit has always been great, but here he actually did a real good job of playing the monster heel. Perkins actually worked a story in for once too which is good because it kind of justifies the soft spot I have for the guy.
> 
> Rhett Titus is becoming a really really good wrestler and nobody seems to notice. His selling of the knee was excellent and the Bucks targeting it was great. The heel Bucks are so fucking fantastic. Loved the finish of the tag gauntlet, nice change from superkicks or MBFYB or a cheap rollup. Made the Bucks look both mean and competent, which is crucial to them getting over as heels.
> 
> Steen at the end of the show, particularly Davey not getting a chance to respond (and thereby burying the impact of the promo).
> 
> Jimmy's ref outfit, man.
> 
> Maria is still really pretty and actually adds quite a bit to Bennett's act.
> 
> RD Evans needs more mic time. On every show. Best talker in the company by miles, and that includes Steen.
> 
> Haas and Benjamin aren't the champs any more.
> 
> 
> Now the mediocre but still worth commenting on:
> 
> Rave looked okay. Not great, but okay. I've seen Ciampa much better, but this was far from offensive.
> 
> Steen/Corino had some really nasty spots and had me in suspense the whole time, but all of Seabs' criticisms are spot on. Not a good match, but fun to watch not knowing the outcome. Very WWE-style.
> 
> The three-way was just kind of there. This is what they have Generico doing?
> 
> 
> And finally, the bad:
> 
> If Rave had turned I could have been kind of interested in the Embassy. He didn't, and I don't really want to see him feud with Ciampa.
> 
> How the fuck did nobody turn in the Steen/Corino match? If Cabana returns as a heel it'll almost be okay, but for the love of god how did they let that happen? Jacobs has gotten no time to establish a character, he just stands next to Corino and shakes his head. He's not interesting, and if he doesn't turn what's the point of having him there?
> 
> Generico coming out to fight Steen kind of makes sense but at the same time I've seen enough of it between ROH last year and PWG this year. I really hope that's not what they use Steen for.
> 
> The first three bits of the tag gauntlet were dreadful. Coleman and Alexander really aren't all that good and didn't do anything to get me interested. Cole and O'Reilly seemed kind of off their game as well. The gauntlet format didn't do anything to help anyone, because they never really had a chance to build to a finish without overshadowing the next match. What they should have done was have the Bucks come out third, beat Coleman and Alexander easily, destroy Titus' knee, and then have a sprint with Future Shock. The way it was executed jumbled it really poorly, and as a whole it was really basic and horribly placed on the card. Elgin/TJP or even Strong/Hero should have gone here the way they booked it.
> 
> That tag title match. My god. Worst match of the year in a landslide, probably the worst I've ever seen where everyone was an actual wrestler. Awful, awful, awful piece of shit that everyone involved, including the bookers who made it happen, should be ashamed of.
> 
> Anyone who says the fans had anything to do with it is missing the point. The match was horribly built, and everyone should have anticipated the fan reaction. Let's look at the circumstances: WGTT are rapidly losing popularity as people get bored of them, as happens to just about every long-term champ in ROH. They obviously aren't helping by turning in awful performances each time out. The Briscoes turned in a double turn and were not booked nearly as strongly heel as they needed to be to get over as heels. Having them face the Bravados is not going to get fans to boo them. They got cheered just as much as the ANX during the Ladder War, and then Jay cut all those really good babyface promos and if there's anyone didn't think the fans were going to cheer the Briscoes, they're stupid. If anyone tries to play it as the fans turning on WGTT because they were successful, they're stupid. The Briscoes were booked terribly and didn't help the matter themselves by cutting those great promos.
> 
> And no, there was no double turn. At least, they didn't plan one. The WGTT attacking the Briscoes before the match was supposed to get a face reaction, like the bad guys were getting what they deserved. Haas, to his credit, tried to change it on the fly, but the beatdown dragged on and on and on and never evolved. The one fan who yelled "that same fucking move, you know we all hate it!" when Haas and Benjamin did that stupid move where Shelton jumps over Haas and lands on the opponent made me smirk, and then I actually burst out laughing when they fucking botched it. Don't ever change, WGTT.
> 
> Regardless, the prematch beatdown would have been okay if they'd actually planned a double turn, because the crowd was so incredibly behind the Briscoes that a simple STF match would have been fantastic. But they clearly didn't prepare for the reaction, and it became blatantly obvious when the bell rang. They actually tried to do an injured partner makes dramatic return story with WGTT. I couldn't believe it when I saw Shelton start to sell his ribs, because they just turned heel, right? Wrong, apparently, because Haas and Benjamin worked the whole match babyface and tried to act like they were megafaces when the crowd wanted them to get the fuck out.
> 
> Also the Briscoes wrestled the same shit they always do regardless of alignment. It works when they've got an underdog face team who can get the crowd behind them on the other side (Future Shock in Atlanta, anyone?) but when you've got fucking WGTT it's dreadful. Nobody had any idea if they were supposed to be heels or faces, not even themselves. It also had the absolute worst bend-over-and-get-kicked-in-the-face spot I've ever seen.
> 
> I seriously cannot fathom why this match was allowed to happen the way it did. A double turn might have worked, and it seems like that's where they're going to go, but then it became obvious that that was all improvised and it devolved into actual hilarity. Also, the Briscoes with the tag titles has been done to death and isn't interesting any more, regardless of their character, and they are by far the team that least needed the rub from taking the belts of WGTT. I really can't stress enough how poorly booked this match was, and then it was executed just as poorly. A fucking embarrassment.
> 
> And then as if that match didn't kill my interest enough, we get to the main event. I could not get interested in this match at all, because they gave me no reason to. There was actually a clear-cut story heading in, it had progressed from BITW, and they did nothing with hit. No heat, no heelish tactics from Eddie, not even any awkwardly shoehorned in "character" spots like the dragon screw in the ropes at BITW. It was a series of moves that weren't joined together well, didn't look particularly impressive, and went on way too long. All they did to play off the build was a couple dragon sleeper spots that didn't look good and got almost no reactions from the crowd.
> 
> And then there was the HOT run-in. Ugh. Why did Strong run in? That makes no sense. What does he stand to gain from that? Roddy's character isn't the kind that needs the spotlight, and he doesn't need to ruin the main event to get attention. And then Team Richards and Severn ran off Strong, Truth, and Elgin together, which didn't make sense because weren't they supposed to be on opposite sides? Was that supposed to be the reunion of the Wolves? The fuck? And don't even get me started on Severn beating the shit out of Elgin. Way to make the guy who just won SOTF look like shit. Goddamn.
> 
> And then there was the finish, which was supposed to be epic I guess? It wasn't, of course. Eddie had already been established as a top contender by holding the fucking belt, so him kicking out of all those things didn't impress anyone, nor, because of the manner it was executed in, did anyone think Edwards was coming back. It was drawn out way too long, it didn't look good, didn't get much of a reaction, and it didn't make a lot of sense. That's really the match in a nutshell.
> 
> A friend of mine who is a casual indy fan remarked to me while we were discussing the show that "Davey Richards couldn't sell food to Ethiopians". Which is sad because he's definitely capable of selling, he knows how, he just at some point apparently decided that nobody wants to see him do that.
> 
> I'd rant a whole lot more, but I don't feel like I need to convince anyone, which is a really nice change from BITW. Hopefully ROH will actually notice that people who used to love their product are starting to hate it and actually make some changes. It's all coming to a head now.
> 
> Star ratings for the fuck of it:
> 
> Elgin/TJP: ***1/2
> Rave/Ciampa: **1/2
> Generico/Bennett/Lethal: **1/4
> Steen/Corino: ***1/2
> Tag gauntlet: **1/4 (*1/2, **1/4, **1/2, ***)
> Strong/Hero: ***
> Briscoes/WGTT: -*****
> Edwards/Richards: DUD


*(Y)

Great to see another person was able to see the double turn wasn't planned. Credit to Haas for reacting to it and trying to play along with it but it just further showed up how bad of a worker Shelton is right now. Oh the downfall since he was one of the best things in the WWE around 04-06 (imo). I think Shelton probably got told too do the wooden plank spot when he went to the back. If not and that was in the original layout of the match then ..... well. You could tell by how quiet Kelly went once it all started. Like his baby boys were being slaughtered in front of his eyes and he was being forced to watch. If there was a turn planned then he would have pushed it because for as annoying as he can be to listen to and watch, Kelly's great at getting his points in. It got him to shut up for a bit though and let Nigel shine. Odds on WGTT quitting before April?

Listened to Meltzer talking about the show earlier and he actually said Richards/Edwards was a really good match but acknowledged they went crazy on the overkill. He also said that Hero had another round of medicals for WWE in January and has made himself available to ROH for the January dates. Apparently he wasn't taking dates because he didn't want to have to pull out on them if he signed with WWE but now he's taking them for January. Obviously take it with a grain of salt but it sounds believable and reliable and fits. Strong going over suggested it was a one shot deal too and he came out with his Kings theme and jacket too.*


----------



## Beatles123

Typical....I knew people couldn't just relax and enjoy things.

Watch, ROH could put out the best product on the planet and people will bitch.

You talk about a bad ppv, and that's fine. But people are bitching so much now it makes you all seem like utter dicks. It doesn't matter what they do now, you have made up your minds.

I'm not even saying the PPV was perfect, but you make it seem like it wasn't enjoyable. I liked it.


----------



## spiraltap

Let's see. Ridiculously long show, wrestling matches that have piss poor psychology and a ton of no sold false finishes and high spots, and a main event that goes about 20 minutes too long with the aforementioned piss poor psychology and a ton of no sold false finishes and high spots. Now where have I seen that before...










Seriously if this is the direction ROH is gonna go in they might as well let Gabe be the ROH booker again so he can slurp up on Davey Richard's dick butter.


----------



## Obfuscation

Nobody has a problem if you enjoyed it. You just seem to get offended for others to have a different opinion than yours.


----------



## TankOfRate

Beatles123 said:


> Typical....I knew people couldn't just relax and enjoy things.
> 
> Watch, ROH could put out the best product on the planet and people will bitch.
> 
> You talk about a bad ppv, and that's fine. But people are bitching so much now it makes you all seem like utter dicks. It doesn't matter what they do now, you have made up your minds.
> 
> I'm not even saying the PPV was perfect, but you make it seem like it wasn't enjoyable. I liked it.


You liked it. Some people didn't like it. You found it enjoyable. Some people didn't find it enjoyable. That's just how it works in every single scenario. I don't understand why you're so defensive over it, at least people are passionate enough to be frustrated with what they saw and discuss _why_ they're frustrated.


----------



## Beatles123

Haley, No, I'm not mad at people with a different opinion. I am offended at the consensus when the consensus is overblown. You talk about how great the Seth Rolins/Ambrose mattches are and I easily saw that in ROH this year, but because it's ROH, it gets no credit anymore.

You all came in not hyped and you left not hyped. Maybe in part due to the show, but mostly because you were already against ROH from the get-go and didn't TRY to enjoy it.

Now, people who do enjoy it like me have to seem like the fucking minority because of this damn bitchiest!

I'll still support ROH and i'll see it be shat on unfairly while other matches get all the praise that have the exact same quality as ROH's matches. 

Look, I'm not trying to be a jerk, but it's times like this when I do get defensive. Yeah, no one has a problem if I enjoy it, yet ROH fans will still be the minority when the product isn't even bad!


----------



## RingoPlaysDrums

"How great the Seth Rollins/Ambrose matches are"

jesus christ no.


----------



## Obfuscation

Just enjoy it and who cares what people say. ROH lost fans. It happens. Really that simple.


----------



## Neutronic

"The double turn wasn't planned"

Glad to see we have people that hang out backstage at the bookers meetings on these forums


----------



## scrilla

Neutronic said:


> "The double turn wasn't planned"
> 
> Glad to see we have people that hang out backstage at the bookers meetings on these forums


uhh if you watched what happened you'd see it. it took me a while at first due to the crowd reaction, but WGTT were clearly meant to be babyfaces. it has nothing to do with being in the bookers meetings.


----------



## Beatles123

Haley, It's a pity it has lost fans, because it really shouldn't be losing them in my view, but I'm the minority. That's what pisses me off: Last night's ppv was better than people make it seem, and that is a damn shame.


----------



## dukenukem3do

I know I'm going to get hate from this but I'll take Sting vs Hogan over Davey vs Eddie


----------



## flag sabbath

Beatles123 said:


> Haley, It's a pity it has lost fans, because it really shouldn't be in my view, but I'm the minority. That's what pisses me off: Last night's ppv was better than people make it seem, and that is a damn shame.


Final Battle was exactly as good as everyone (including you) made it seem - it's called subjectivity. Do yourself a massive favour & get over it.


----------



## Phenomenal Clash

I feel like if WWE had put on a PPV with as many solid matches on it as Final Battle, the WWE smarks would love it. Is that just completely off base?


----------



## Obfuscation

It's not a matter of smarks, trolls, bandwagon hate, or any nonsense. It's all a matter of preference. Some enjoyed the majority, some didn't like the show, and everyone hated the tag team championship match.


----------



## Phenomenal Clash

HAYLEY AFICIONADO said:


> It's not a matter of smarks, trolls, bandwagon hate, or any nonsense. It's all a matter of preference. Some enjoyed the majority, some didn't like the show, and everyone hated the tag team championship match.


I just wonder if people would be as judgmental on it if it was a WWE show. If it were it'd get praised as a good PPV.

And not EVERYONE hated the tag championship match. I enjoyed it, and so did the person I watched the ppv with.


----------



## Beatles123

I know what it sounds like, trust me. I'm not usually one who tries to bitch, but it makes me so damn angry. The promotion deserves better than what people say about it right now and i'm probably the only one here that thinks that. I don't like being the ONE GUY who just can't see what others do. I think it sucks that very few enjoyed last night.


----------



## geraldinhio

Beatles123 comes across as a massive mark to say the least. As Flag Sabbath said it's called subjectivity , ROH's current product isn't for everyone . It's probably not for me anyway.


----------



## Obfuscation

Phenomenal Clash said:


> I just wonder if people would be as judgmental on it if it was a WWE show. If it were it'd get praised as a good PPV.
> 
> And not EVERYONE hated the tag championship match. I enjoyed it, and so did the person I watched the ppv with.


That seems to be rare, but at least someone thought it was fine. I guess that's good?



Beatles123 said:


> I know what it sounds like, trust me. I'm not usually one who tries to bitch, but it makes me so damn angry. The promotion deserves better than what people say about it right now and i'm probably the only one here that thinks that. I don't like being the ONE GUY who just can't see what others do. I think it sucks that very few enjoyed last night.


Yikes dude. WE GET IT.


----------



## seabs

Beatles123 said:


> Typical....I knew people couldn't just relax and enjoy things.
> 
> Watch, ROH could put out the best product on the planet and people will bitch.
> 
> You talk about a bad ppv, and that's fine. But people are bitching so much now it makes you all seem like utter dicks. It doesn't matter what they do now, you have made up your minds.
> 
> I'm not even saying the PPV was perfect, but you make it seem like it wasn't enjoyable. I liked it.


*People aren't slamming you for enjoying the show so you shouldn't really be slamming them for not liking the show. You enjoyed it and thought it was good, good for you. We didn't like and posted about why we didn't like it, good for us. Nobody's saying to you you're opinion is wrong and trying to persuade you to stop watching if you enjoy. Like flag sabbath said, the quality of the show is all subjective and the whole point of this thread is to discuss our subjective opinions on the show. There's no objective reality as to how good or enjoyable the show was.

Out of curiosity, how long have you been a ROH fan for and how much ROH pre 09 have you seen?*


Neutronic said:


> "The double turn wasn't planned"
> 
> Glad to see we have people that hang out backstage at the bookers meetings on these forums


*Being able to identify reasoning behind spots made it clear.*


----------



## dukenukem3do

Beatles123 said:


> I know what it sounds like, trust me. I'm not usually one who tries to bitch, but it makes me so damn angry. The promotion deserves better than what people say about it right now and i'm probably the only one here that thinks that. I don't like being the ONE GUY who just can't see what others do. I think it sucks that very few enjoyed last night.


If you still like ROH that's fine but ROH IMO its not as good as it once was in 03-10, hell WWE is doing a better job than ROH


----------



## FITZ

dukenukem3do said:


> If you still like ROH that's fine but ROH IMO its not as good as it once was in 03-10, hell WWE is doing a better job than ROH


I hate to say it but I think most companies are doing better than ROH right now. Within the last year I've been to shows from WWE, TNA, ROH, CZW, DGUSA, and Chikara shows all within the last few months and ROH has been the least entertaining out of all those companies.


----------



## Last Chancery

One criticism I can't quite get behind -- and I'm sure this will draw me some odd looks, but whatever -- is the one about wrestlers _supposed to_ be feeling something, or doing something. Seabs, you mentioned how a top rope suplex should have hurt both people involved... why? Forgive me if I'm a bit slow, but in reality, doesn't everybody react differently to falling? Like, I could fall down a couple stairs outside my home and get right back up with just a bruise, but my best friend could fall the exact same way and not get up at all. Are wrestlers supposed to feel pain the same way, hurt the same after the moves they receive? It seems unrealistic to me, honestly. Like, with the Richards/Edwards suplex-into-suplex spot, I saw it as Richards doing something he does fairly often (taking a bump off the top rope onto his back) and shrugging it off as such because he was used to it. For someone who's used to landing on his back, and at that angle, I wouldn't expect him to be laid out. If he's used to doing that particular move, or at least falling on his back from that height, why would he sell it? It seems subjective to me, and dependent on the wrestler. Or does the concept of subjectivity escape wrestling altogether?

Another thing is with submissions. Again, maybe I'm thinking too much in terms of "real life," which wrestling often attempts to imitate, but with certain submission holds, why are "work overs" and "limb work" so important? If someone slaps an ankle lock onto me right here and now, I'll scream. I'd tap. That's without that person punching my ankle previously or softening it up by hitting it with a chair, it's because ankle locks frickin' hurt in general. In wrestling, if we're to believe certain guys are experts at submissions -- like a Richards or a Strong -- then shouldn't they know exactly how to cinch in a hold to get their opponents to tap out as quickly as possible? Having a guy last a long time in a submission hold makes the person applying said hold look weak and incompetent because in real life, most any person would tap after being locked into a strong hold.

I often feel like I don't "get" wrestling like a lot of you guys here do. All this talk about character work, working the crowds, face/heel dynamics, limb work, control segments, it's way over my head. I liken it to going to a movie. You can either go as a fan or as a critic. If you go as a fan, you're watching to be entertained. Maybe you like one or two of the actors, the story interests you, you're looking for an escape or a good time, or both. The only way the movie is gonna suck is if it doesn't meet those expectations. But if you got to a movie as a critic, you're sitting there looking to judge everything. The acting, the pacing, the plot, the devices, the cinematography, the lighting, the audio, the writing, and you're judging that so keenly that it almost seems impossible to just take a step back and watch the dang thing for what it's meant to be: entertainment.

I almost want to believe many here aren't enjoying the products as much as they can because they're digging too deep, analyzing too intensely, being overly critical when such is not really needed. I mean, don't some of you guys remember what it was like to just be a fan, watch an episode of Raw without having a little notebook out to mark points for selling or structure or storytelling? I mean, that's what got me into wrestling. It was fun to watch and I was able to turn off my mind when doing so. Turning on my mind, as well as an analytical eye, to every single move in every single match all the dang time just seems so... blah. I don't know how critiquing something so in-depth is any fun for anyone, but maybe that's just me.

Apologies if this sounds rude or harsh, and I'm sure a lot of it can just be chalked up to a difference in opinion. But I felt I had to say it, and this year's Final Battle was the tipping point. To completely shit on these guys, as some of you have done, seems reckless and thankless. Davey and Eddie worked for the better part of 45 minutes in their own style, and while it wasn't what most of us would consider an enjoyable match, it still deserves some praise. Bad match or not, I just think it's disrespect to crap all over the efforts of two guys who nearly killed themselves, and for our entertainment. That's the only reason they did it: for our entertainment.

I don't know, man, I think I'm just gonna go back to watching Christmas movies or Breaking Bad or something fun. All this analysis and critique is putting me back in English major mode, killing my buzz.


----------



## Beatles123

Seabs said:


> *People aren't slamming you for enjoying the show so you shouldn't really be slamming them for not liking the show. You enjoyed it and thought it was good, good for you. We didn't like and posted about why we didn't like it, good for us. Nobody's saying to you you're opinion is wrong and trying to persuade you to stop watching if you enjoy. Like flag sabbath said, the quality of the show is all subjective and the whole point of this thread is to discuss our subjective opinions on the show. There's no objective reality as to how good or enjoyable the show was.
> 
> Out of curiosity, how long have you been a ROH fan for and how much ROH pre 09 have you seen?*
> 
> 
> *Being able to identify reasoning behind spots made it clear.*


I don't have a problem with people not liking it. I hate the fact that i'm going to be one of the only ones that still likes the company before long. I would have hope people enjoy it though--not that they have to, but it's a bummer when very few will agree with you, and the company, as you like it, will not please many fans.

I have seen a lot of ROH from all eras. I like it all, really, and I actually came in during the HDNet era. I enjoy all eras including the current one. I just wish more people still enjoyed it.


----------



## jawbreaker

Phenomenal Clash said:


> I just wonder if people would be as judgmental on it if it was a WWE show. If it were it'd get praised as a good PPV.
> 
> And not EVERYONE hated the tag championship match. I enjoyed it, and so did the person I watched the ppv with.


Nobody expects WWE to have top quality wrestling. They don't claim they do. That's not their calling card. If you watch WWE apart from WrestleMania, you expect maybe one or two really solid midcard matches from Ziggler or Danielson or somebody and anything on top of that is gravy.

Also this was not just ROH, but Final Battle, the biggest show of the year. If you put on your biggest show of the year and the two world title matches are regarded by the majority as godawful, then you're going to get bashed more than WWE would. If TNA put on what by WWE standards would be a bad show, people would be pleasantly surprised.

The thing to remember as well is that most of the people who are frustrated with ROH do it because they think the roster has plenty of talent and they know how good it could be. I don't bother bashing WWE or TNA because I don't think they'll ever put out a product that would be worth my time to watch. I do with ROH because I know they can, and I want them to. I enjoy good wrestling, and I think ROH can still provide that. They just haven't lately, and I'm not going to lower my standards because I know that everyone in ROH is capable of better.


----------



## FITZ

I still know what it's like to be a fan. I still am a fan and the main reason I am a fan is that I have so much fun at wrestling shows. This show wasn't fun and I wanted it to be fun. I don't enjoy spending $30 for a ticket driving for 3 hours to then go and talk shit about the show. But I didn't have fun, and I really really wanted to. So I just spent a whole day and a lot of money to see this show and it didn't seem worth it. So yeah, I'm going to bitch about it and I think I have every right to do so.


----------



## Beatles123

Personally I don't see how you couldn't have fun at that show, but I understand your opinion I guess... 

I can tell the next few months people will moan, but I think Steen/Davey will be hype as hell and totally worth it.

and Jawbreaker, that's where my beef is. The majority saying it's god-awfull is just sad. What does that make those of us that enjoyed it? Nothing. Zip. The majority will matter most and the company will get a bad rap that i do not feel it deserves for it.


----------



## seabs

Last Chancery said:


> One criticism I can't quite get behind -- and I'm sure this will draw me some odd looks, but whatever -- is the one about wrestlers _supposed to_ be feeling something, or doing something. Seabs, you mentioned how a top rope suplex should have hurt both people involved... why? Forgive me if I'm a bit slow, but in reality, doesn't everybody react differently to falling? Like, I could fall down a couple stairs outside my home and get right back up with just a bruise, but my best friend could fall the exact same way and not get up at all. Are wrestlers supposed to feel pain the same way, hurt the same after the moves they receive? It seems unrealistic to me, honestly. Like, with the Richards/Edwards suplex-into-suplex spot, I saw it as Richards doing something he does fairly often (taking a bump off the top rope onto his back) and shrugging it off as such because he was used to it. For someone who's used to landing on his back, and at that angle, I wouldn't expect him to be laid out. If he's used to doing that particular move, or at least falling on his back from that height, why would he sell it? It seems subjective to me, and dependent on the wrestler. Or does the concept of subjectivity escape wrestling altogether?
> 
> Another thing is with submissions. Again, maybe I'm thinking too much in terms of "real life," which wrestling often attempts to imitate, but with certain submission holds, why are "work overs" and "limb work" so important? If someone slaps an ankle lock onto me right here and now, I'll scream. I'd tap. That's without that person punching my ankle previously or softening it up by hitting it with a chair, it's because ankle locks frickin' hurt in general. In wrestling, if we're to believe certain guys are experts at submissions -- like a Richards or a Strong -- then shouldn't they know exactly how to cinch in a hold to get their opponents to tap out as quickly as possible? Having a guy last a long time in a submission hold makes the person applying said hold look weak and incompetent because in real life, most any person would tap after being locked into a strong hold.


*Yeah you could use the logic of it didn't hurt him that time to explain no selling and the fighting spirit adrenaline line is a great cop out for no selling stuff which completely works. This is wrestling not MMA though and it's more essential to tell a story through the moves. Davey does the top rope suplex into another suplex all the time now btw and Eddie countering was even stupider. If you don't sell moves or build to them or give them meaning then essential what makes pro wrestling pro wrestling is lost. Sure you could pull out an armbreaker at any point and win the match but then that would just be MMA. Wrestling's a work and you have to keep people interested for longer matches by building to stuff. Your logic isn't wrong, it's just not an entertaining one and basically turns pro wrestling into fake MMA which is pointless when you have real MMA. I think these days everyone who watches wrestling knows it's fake so doesn't watch for sport but they watch for the entertainment and the story aspect, otherwise they'd just watch MMA as a sport.

I dont watch MMA but Richards/Edwards essentially tried to work a MMA style pro wrestling match for over 40 minutes. How many MMA fights go over 40 straight minutes without breaks?*


Beatles123 said:


> I don't have a problem with people not liking it. I hate the fact that i'm going to be one of the only ones that still likes the company before long. I would have hope people enjoy it though--not that they have to, but it's a bummer when very few will agree with you, and the company, as you like it, will not please many fans.
> 
> I have seen a lot of ROH from all eras. I like it all, really, and I actually came in during the HDNet era. I enjoy all eras including the current one. I just wish more people still enjoyed it.


*I've noticed that the trend of ROH fans who have become less happy with the product tend to be those who have followed it since before Pearce took over the booking and the newer fans are more content with the current product, even if they've watched some matches here and there from previous years.*


----------



## flag sabbath

Beatles123 said:


> Personally I don't see how you couldn't have fun at that show, but I understand your opinion I guess...
> 
> I can tell the next few months people will moan, but I think Steen/Davey will be hype as hell and totally worth it.
> 
> and Jawbreaker, that's where my beef is. The majority saying it's god-awfull is just sad. What does that make those of us that enjoyed it? Nothing. Zip. The majority will matter most and the company will get a bad rap that i do not feel it deserves for it.


You're confusing the majority of posters on this thread (like 15-20 people?) with the majority of ROH's fanbase. We're not as relevant as you seem to fear.


----------



## Beatles123

Seabs said:


> *Yeah you could use the logic of it didn't hurt him that time to explain no selling and the fighting spirit adrenaline line is a great cop out for no selling stuff which completely works. This is wrestling not MMA though and it's more essential to tell a story through the moves. Davey does the top rope suplex into another suplex all the time now btw and Eddie countering was even stupider. If you don't sell moves or build to them or give them meaning then essential what makes pro wrestling pro wrestling is lost. Sure you could pull out an armbreaker at any point and win the match but then that would just be MMA. Wrestling's a work and you have to keep people interested for longer matches by building to stuff. Your logic isn't wrong, it's just not an entertaining one and basically turns pro wrestling into fake MMA which is pointless when you have real MMA. I think these days everyone who watches wrestling knows it's fake so doesn't watch for sport but they watch for the entertainment and the story aspect, otherwise they'd just watch MMA as a sport.
> 
> I dont watch MMA but Richards/Edwards essentially tried to work a MMA style pro wrestling match for over 40 minutes. How many MMA fights go over 40 straight minutes without breaks?*
> 
> *I've noticed that the trend of ROH fans who have become less happy with the product tend to be those who have followed it since before Pearce took over the booking and the newer fans are more content with the current product, even if they've watched some matches here and there from previous years.*


I have a great respect for the older stuff, but I can be able to enjoy today's product. It's different, but far from bad and few seem to share that opinion. That's what I find disappointing.

I'll shut up now, I don't want to sound like a whiner. I'm just rather annoyed right now.


----------



## bigbuxxx

Beatles123 said:


> That's what pisses me off: Last night's ppv was better than people make it seem





Beatles123 said:


> I don't have a problem with people not liking it.


orly?


----------



## Coffey

Beatles123 said:


> I don't have a problem with people not liking it. I hate the fact that i'm going to be one of the only ones that still likes the company before long. I would have hope people enjoy it though--not that they have to, but it's a bummer when very few will agree with you, and the company, as you like it, will not please many fans.


If they stop putting out shit, the fans won't all shit on the company and leave in droves. It's as simple as that. What about that, exactly, is hard to understand? You sound like those two old TNA YouTube marks that praised everything TNA did, no matter what. You're going to have to get over *yourself*.

And you're well beyond "whiner" phase. You're in "put this user on your ignore list" phase because you sound like the kid that threatens to take his basketball home if he's not picked on the teams first at the park.


----------



## LIL' WINNING FOOT

I like WGTT but their match quality lately has been a sharp decline, shown obviously from last night.

Is the WGTT hate from the fact that they can't work the "traditional ROH" style or that they haven't changed up since 2004 or just that they don't resonate with the majoirty of the current ROH audience?


----------



## Concrete

I think that last night was the event that it meant less if you came in as a fan opposed to a critic. I didn't need to be a critic to dislike the Tag Team Title Match. Me and my friend, who by no means is a wrestling critic, disliked watching WGTT beat down the Briscoes for so long. It was boring. We weren't shitting on the match because there weren't control segments,limb work, or stuff. The Edwards vs Richards match wasn't bad as I already said it just didn't make a lot of sense. That isn't over analyzing at all. Videos said he mastered the dragon sleeper and he didn't really do it a lot or that well. That's like going to a movie where they say that the CGI is revolutionary but it didn't really have a lot of it and it wasn't impressive. It would be a little mind boggling. I always say I am a fan of Edwards and there have been some Davey matches I just loved. I'm still going to watch ROH on iPPV and it will still be the premiere independent out there.I wouldn't worry about the people that say they aren't going to be watching anymore. It seems the audience is growing and when ROH finds out where they want to go again I feel those people will jump right back on board. I shunned WWE for a few years but I started hearing some good things so I started watching it again and this year they are having one of their best years in while with plenty of PPVs with a MOTYC. WWE is major league though and looks better than ROH. If ROH looked prettier it would probably come off better.That may sound shallow but production values go a long way. This is why I think WRP will be the shiznit.


----------



## topper1

Winning™ said:


> I like WGTT but their match quality lately has been a sharp decline, shown obviously from last night.
> 
> Is the WGTT hate from the fact that they can't work the "traditional ROH" style or that they haven't changed up since 2004 or just that they don't resonate with the majoirty of the current ROH audience?


Where is the option that they are just subpar?


----------



## Beatles123

Walk-In said:


> If they stop putting out shit, the fans won't all shit on the company and leave in droves. It's as simple as that. What about that, exactly, is hard to understand? You sound like those two old TNA YouTube marks that praised everything TNA did, no matter what. You're going to have to get over *yourself*.
> 
> And you're well beyond "whiner" phase. You're in "put this user on your ignore list" phase because you sound like the kid that threatens to take his basketball home if he's not picked on the teams first at the park.


Fair enough--I'm not trying to be that way but I don't think my opinion is coming across the way i want it to. I don't think the company is shit, but I didn't like everything about the PPV.

It seems like I'm not making myself look any good right now, but I apologize--I'm having a hard time expressing my thoughts. 

I'm sorry if I annoyed anyone. I didn't mean to seem like a mark.


----------



## JoseDRiveraTCR7

Good show. Nothing amazing. I was entertained for most of it. Steen v Corino was the biggest disappointment.


----------



## topper1

I get that the angle has been pretty good but I don't know why anyone was expecting anything with Corino to be all that good.


----------



## Coffey

Beatles123, clear out your PM inbox so I can reply to your PM.


----------



## Beatles123

Done, Walk-in. I forgot it was full, sorry.


----------



## spiraltap

Go here- http://ctgrenade.blogspot.com/2011/12/roh-final-battle-2011-review.html to see my full review of final battle. I didnt completely hate it like seabs did nor did I completely love it like beatles did. And calling this the worst show ever is really stretching it.


----------



## Coffey

Did someone here actually say that it was the worst show ever? That's obviously hyperbole.


----------



## spiraltap

Well maybe not calling it the worst show ever but just completely shitting on it.


----------



## jawbreaker

Why can't I be both a fan and a critic? Why can't I mark out for the Young Bucks and still appreciate the limb work? Why can't I think the tag title match was a clusterfuck and then back it up with an in-depth examination?

There's things I like in wrestling and things I think make for good wrestling. They are generally the same things. If I can explain why I liked or didn't like something, that's a lot more satisfying to me than just saying that I liked it. There's no set rules for why a wrestling match is good or bad, except that if I can believe in and enjoy the story being told, I'll probably like it. There's tons of different ways to get that to happen, whether it's character dynamics, solid psychology, limb work, even just straight up all-out action. But if I can't believe or enjoy the story, I probably won't like the match. I won't enjoy it as a fan, and as a critic I'll explain why it is that I didn't like it. That's how it works for me.


----------



## Neutronic

spiraltap said:


> Well maybe not calling it the worst show ever but just completely shitting on it.


Anyone calling this the worst ROH show ever clearly wasnt around in 2002-2003.


----------



## EffectRaven

I haven't seen the show yet but judging from what I've been reading, the undercard delivered but the main events (which were the primary cause for concern for most skeptics) didn't. I'll still check it out but Richards/Edwards sounds like overkill even to me who is a fan of both men and enjoyed both of their previous encounters


----------



## Neutronic

The 1st half of the show was great

The only bad part of the 2nd half to me was Richards vs Edwards


----------



## King.Of.Contradict

Richards vs Edwards III < Richards vs Edwards II... But the best of the match is the face to face of Steen and Richards.


----------



## EffectRaven

Neutronic said:


> The 1st half of the show was great
> 
> The only bad part of the 2nd half to me was Richards vs Edwards


Sounds like Final Battle 2009 in most people's eyes


----------



## Berringer

Neutronic said:


> Anyone calling this the worst ROH show ever clearly wasnt around in 2002-2003.


 
Isn't that the truth. :agree: This certainly wasn't the worst show I've seen from ROH, but it didn't wow me like a "Final Battle" should.


----------



## Beatles123

any word on the Buyrate/attendance?


----------



## THECHAMPION

I don't have a number but everything but the 2nd and 3rd balcony (which wasn't open as always)looked full or close to it and Cornette said it set ROH's single event attendance and buy records.


----------



## LIL' WINNING FOOT

An article at Yahoo Sports on the PPV:



> *Ring of Honor Redefines Pro Wrestling with Final Battle 2011 Pay Per View*
> 
> _By Ryan Drew, Yahoo! Contributor Network
> 2 hours, 4 minutes ago_
> 
> All hail, pro wrestling has a new savior. And its name is Ring of Honor. The ten-year young wrestling company delivered a four-hour internet pay per view event on Friday evening, December 23rd 2011. According to Ring of Honor officials, it was the biggest live gate the company has experienced. As an independent wrestler myself, it's very encouraging to see Ring of Honor continue to expand and heighten its national profile. And after watching the Final Battle 2011 pay per view event on Friday night, there are many promising reasons why this company is on the verge of breakthrough in 2012.
> 
> *Ring of Honors Final Battle 2011
> Ryan Drew*
> 
> First off, the in-ring action is top notch. From the opening bout, to the final match, every battle seemed consequential. The wrestlers in the contests honored their respective matches with a seriousness not often seen in the larger WWE. That is not to say there was no pomp and circumstance. This is a pro wrestling show after all. But the wrestlers seemed very authentic, with no overly goofy gimmicks. Though the most wrestlers lack a valued mainstream name, their athleticism rivals many of their more famous counterparts. Guys like Davey Richards, Eddie Edwards, Tommaso Ciampa and Michael Elgin are some of the most impressive wrestlers I've ever seen clash in the squared circle.
> 
> There is an old secret that pro wrestling is "fake." I do not care for the term "fake", but it's widely acknowledged and known that pro wrestling is not totally on the up and up. But what Ring of Honor does differently than other wrestling businesses is they do not throw that in your face. They do the complete opposite. They strive to make the viewers believe again. Watching the pay per view on Friday, the wrestling fan in me kept thinking "was that real?". Especially in the main event, where the two athletes, Davey Richards and Eddie Edwards, attacked one another with frenzied strikes. It felt like I could have been watching a UFC bout. It was very solid.
> 
> Another way Ring of Honor wrestling differs from mainstream pro wrestling like the WWE and TNA is the audience participation. The aficionados in attendance are rabid. They invest themselves into the personalities and into the Ring of Honor adventure. These wrestling fans are a throwback to old school wrestling fans who lived, breathed and overcame adversity through their in-ring heroes. At Final Battle 2011, fans jumped on wrestler "Prodigy" Mike Bennett as he entered the auditorium for his match. They chanted "C.M. Punk" at the young ROH rookie, a dig at Bennett because of his new valet, former WWE Diva Maria Kanellis. Their enthusiasm, whether cheering or jeering the wrestlers, is contagious. The atmosphere at the event was unlike any other wrestling audience. The fans were invested, and that's how a company like Ring of Honor will make money and achieve greater recognition.
> 
> In some ways, Ring of Honor has become a farm league for the WWE. Recently, two former Ring of Honor stars have become major players in World Wrestling Entertainment. C.M. Punk, the current WWE Champion, is also a former Ring of Honor champion and spent three years in the company. Bryan Danielson is also a former Ring of Honor Heavyweight Champion, and has held many championships for the WWE. If Ring of Honor can keep their energetic roster for a stretched period of time, without losing them to TNA or WWE, it only helps solidify their place in the wrestling establishment.
> 
> Of course, no venture is without their problems. Several reports have come out over the last year that Ring of Honor has bled money and was on the verge of going out of business. But wrestling tends to be full of gossip and rumors, and since ROH is not a publicly traded company like WWE, their bottom line is not released to the public. Judging from what I observed at Final Battle 2011, Ring of Honor is not only here to stay, but 2012 will be the year it finally becomes mainstream. Get ready wrestling fans, a resurgence in pro wrestling is coming.


----------



## Beatles123

Good press for ROH is always good, PPPV opinions or not.


----------



## SAMCRO

One part that really made me cringe was when Kelly screwed up Eddie's motto "he lives by the motto its not how hard you get hit but hit... its how hard..its how well you get up after being hit" lol good lord that was awful and didn't make a lick of sense. Kelly just a little hint you hear the motto every match he's in at the start of his theme, "but it aint about how hard ya hit its about how hard you can get hit and keep moving forward".

Also would they please learn how to fucking show a replay! all through the night they keep saying "look here in the replay" "now if we can see that again in a replay" damn you think they would have learned after the 3rd or 4th time no replay happening that it was not gonna work. The camera work and production was like something some 14 year old put together in his backyard, for gods sake I had hope when they got the new tv deal but damn if they can't get their shit together any better than this there not gonna last long.


----------



## Spinone

TJP Vs Elgin *** 1/2
Ciampa Vs Rave *** 1/4
Lethal Vs Bennett Vs Generico *** 1/4
Corino Vs Steen ****
Tag Gauntlet *** 3/4
Strong Vs Hero *** 1/2
Briscoes Vs WGTT *** 1/2
Davey Vs Edwards **** 1/2


----------



## Bubz

ROH Final Battle 2011

Elgin vs TJP
This was a pretty fun opener with some cool as hell spots. Elgin was really impressive again, especially when he caught TJP from the senton on the outside and the dive off the top rope into a suplex. There was a brief awkward part in the middle and some moves didn't look very impactful but it was still fun.
**1/2

Ciampa vs Rave
Decent pop for Rave but the crowd didn't give two shits about this and neither did I despite being a bit of a Rave fan. Pretty by the numbers , nothing awful but nothing good. The crowd was chanting Twinkies and AJ Styles so that shows you how little they cared. *1/2

Bennett vs Generico vs Lethal
Wow, no reaction for Bennett at all, but a massive pop for Maria when she came out lol. Shit she's hot! Really loud CM PUNK CHANTS . This started out really fucking slow and dull, but picked up towards the end with two awesome spots from Generico on the outside. Decent action but a bit dull and nothing to write home about. Oh and the crowd was fucking awful untill Generico woke them up late in the match. ***

Steen vs Corino
KEVIN FUCKING STEEN! Awesome entrance and pop for Steen, this guy is over as shit right now. Jacobs looks so gay . Wow! I was not expecting this! An absolute war right here, I expected a hardcore match but not to this level. Some of the spots were fucking ridiculous including the powerbomb on the chair in the corner of the barricades, the suplex on to the guardrail and Steen falling through two chars and a table! An awesome hardcore match and both men looked great in it. I was scared for these guys on occasion, especially with that barricade spot, that was crazy. The after match stuff was so great, they are really making Steen out to be an unstoppable beast of a monster and it's amazing. MOTYC easily, infact I almost liked this as much as Steen/Generico from last years Final battle. ****1/2 I can't be the only one to love this?

Tag Team Gauntlet
I really don't want to watch this but I suppose I will. Nothing to talk about really until Future Shock come out and them and CC have some good exchanges. Bucks come out next and them and FS have a good little match, very similar to the one they had ad Steen Wolf. ANX are out last and King botches a move on the outside but recovers, and some of these fans start chanting 'Fuck Kenny King', fuck off with that shit. There was also some fucknut screaming throughout this match. ANX/Bucks was really sloppy and fucking boring though. The only decent part was Bucks/FS but even that wasn't anything too great. This makes me dread any future matches between these two wich I'm sure is what they are going with with the Bucks taking out Titus' knee. **

Strong's open challenge
Oh god, Strong is on the mic. YES!!!! Who's your hero?! And he gets the pop of the night. My favorite guy on the indies by far and I marked the fuck out when KOW's music hit. It's weird seeing Hero come out in ROH without Claudio or Sarah . Good match here, nothing overly special but it's good to see Roddy finally get a fucking win since he is the former champ and all, and good to see Hero back in an ROH ring after a while. Decent structure with Roddy working over Hero and a good finishing stretch. Roddy does nothing for me these days though and I can never get into his matches apart from a few exceptions. ***1/4

Briscoes vs WGTT
What a fucking shitstorm. Seriously awful shit. WGTT are useless fucking tools. This was just a mess and I can't even be arsed to write about what I just saw. Everything was just shit, felt like I was watching TNA at various points during this. DUD!

Davey vs Eddie III
What a load of absolute fucking shite. The worst Davey Richards match I've ever seen. Nothing made sense, everything was completely illogical, nothing was sold, crowd was dead, crowd chanted 'this is wrestling', fuck off. This is shit. Fuck this match and everything it stands for. I don't think I've disliked a match this much in a long fucking time. just skip to the end to see Steen own Davey. I can't even rate that match.

Sorry but I'm a bit angry right now after sitting through this, and I didn't even pay for it. The last two matches may be the worst double main event Ican remember seeing for a long time. Kevin Steen is ROH's saving grace, without him, this may be one of the worst shows of the year. I watched this unspoiled so I don't know what anyone else thought of it since I haven't been on here in order to keep it exciting, but if anyone liked the main event, or if you were there and chanted 'this is wrestling', seriously, what the fuck? That shit was awful.


----------



## smitlick

A couple of things I'm annoyed with in the last few pages or just in general

- People that complain about unprotected chair shots... They are definitely making there way to my ignore list. Its absolutely none of anyones business as to what these guys want to do with there bodies. 

- This and people who haven't watched the show or don't watch ROH on a regular basis have absolutely no point or right to comment on it being a shit product. ROH is without a doubt no where near as good as it has been but it is in no way a bad or even poor product. It would be like me commenting in the WWE area when i don't watch there product regularly or ever. If you have no interest in the product then don't post in this thread or any of ROHs threads. Its just that easy.


----------



## FITZ

THECHAMPION said:


> I don't have a number but everything but the 2nd and 3rd balcony (which wasn't open as always)looked full or close to it and Cornette said it set ROH's single event attendance and buy records.


He said it was their biggest gate ever. Which means they made the most money in ticket sales then any other show. Considering front row was $100 and the cheapest GA seat they were selling was $25 for a while it's not a surprise. It didn't sell out but there were a lot of people there. Both balconies looked pretty full.


----------



## SHIRLEY

:lmao

Anyone that attacks Davey Richards for no-selling and ignores Kevin Steen no-selling a superplex onto a cast iron crush barrier - thanks for being a dumb mark and keeping ROH in business for another year.

I'll see you in 12-18 months time, when Steen is the WORST WRESTLER EVER~! and rising babyface X is untouchable.

Merry Xmas. Here's to predictably impressionable wrestling fans.


----------



## Certified G

Sounds like a great show tbh. Definitely gonna download it as soon as I can. I completely forgot this show was coming up. fpalm


----------



## KingCrash

Finally got to watch the show - 

Elgin vs. TJP - ***
Liked this more then I thought I would, Elgin again looked impressive and Perkins was solid

Ciampa vs. Rave - **1/2
Average match, Rave looked decent and as far as I can remember the best Ciampa has looked. 

Lethal vs. Bennett vs. Generico - **3/4
Crowd really only cared about Maria and Generico once they got tired of getting their chants in at Bennett. Decent match with Generico and Lethal being the workhorses and hopefully we don't see "Time Limit Lethal" again.

Steen vs. Corino - ***3/4
Great wild and crazy brawl, about what you'd expect from these two. Shocked Jimmy didn't turn, but with Steen being the unstoppable bastard afterwards and taking out Generico (hope he's only gone a short while) they may have Jacobs try to stop him until they're ready for the inevitable Steen vs. Davey.

Bravados vs. C&C vs. FutureShock vs. Young Bucks vs. ANX - **1/4
Evened out to a average match, the beginning and end were nothing with the crowd dying at the end but this was the best C&C have looked yet and FS/Bucks was as enjoyable as their other matchups. 

Strong vs. Hero - **3/4
Don't know what it was but it seemed that Hero and Strong were about a step-off with each other and the finish wasn't great either. Decent but they've had better encounters dozens of times.

WGTT vs. Briscoes - N/A
A way too long beatdown, WGTT trying to be both heels and faces, the injured teammate spot so messed up Jersey All-Pro did it better with wacky face Sami Callihan and douchebag Chris Dickenson, a weapon spot that lead to nothing and an otherwise boring matchup just lead to a nothing semi-main event. 

Davey vs. Eddie - ***
It started out fine with them trying to tell the story of Davey trying not to get locked in the Dragon Sleeper but then it went into the same match as last time, made worse by the interference with the House of Truth, Team Richards and Severn. No-selling is alright at times, but when the focal point of the build is Eddie's Dragon Sleeper and Davey no-sells _that_, then what's the point? If you loved the BITW match, you'll love this. If you hated their last matchup, this one isn't for you either.

I'd have to look to see how this rates for Final Battles, but about the only semi-main/main I can recall this low is 09 with whatever the hell Teddy Hart/Jack Evans was and the 60 min. Aries/Black draw.


----------



## Coffey

Shirley Crabtree III said:


> :lmao
> 
> Anyone that attacks Davey Richards for no-selling and ignores Kevin Steen no-selling a superplex onto a cast iron crush barrier - thanks for being a dumb mark and keeping ROH in business for another year.
> 
> I'll see you in 12-18 months time, when Steen is the WORST WRESTLER EVER~! and rising babyface X is untouchable.
> 
> Merry Xmas. Here's to predictably impressionable wrestling fans.


This is what is called a strawman argument. A strawman argument is when you make up a point so you can argue against it to try to make your stance seem more credible. No one in this thread has made the claim that the guard rail Superplex spot was sold well. So your entire reply is irrelevant. 

Good attempt at snarky sarcasm though!


----------



## Phenomenal Clash

Walk-In said:


> This is what is called a strawman argument. A strawman argument is when you make up a point so you can argue against it to try to make your stance seem more credible. No one in this thread has made the claim that the guard rail Superplex spot was sold well. So your entire reply is irrelevant.
> 
> Good attempt at snarky sarcasm though!


He never said anyone DID say it was sold well, he said they IGNORED the fact that he no-sold it...


----------



## SHIRLEY

Walk-In said:


> This is what is called a strawman argument. A strawman argument is when you make up a point so you can argue against it to try to make your stance seem more credible. No one in this thread has made the claim that the guard rail Superplex spot was sold well. So your entire reply is irrelevant.
> 
> Good attempt at snarky sarcasm though!


Nope, this^ is what's called a strawman argument. 

I was talking about people willfully ignoring the psychological flaws in Steen's match, amidst the hysteria surrounding his return/push. That's a real thing that has visibly happened, in the real world.

To clarify, the glossing-over was the main issue that I identified. The apparent double-standard, the secondary issue. Also, I'm positing that the driving forces, behind these things, are impressionability and bandwagon jumping. My reasoning for this is that the people did the same thing when Davey, himself, was being pushed as the next big thing. They also did the same thing for every "next big thing" before him.

I reserve the right to ridicule anyone that gave the Steen match close to 5* and the Davey match 0*(or N/A) or under.


----------



## Certified G

KingCrash said:


> Davey vs. Eddie - ***
> It started out fine with them trying to tell the story of Davey trying not to get locked in the Dragon Sleeper but then it went into the same match as last time, made worse by the interference with the House of Truth, Team Richards and Severn. No-selling is alright at times, but when the focal point of the build is Eddie's Dragon Sleeper and Davey no-sells _that_, then what's the point? *If you loved the BITW match, you'll love this. If you hated their last matchup, this one isn't for you either.*


Phew I was getting worried with all these negative comments. I absolutely loved their BITW match. One of the best matches I've seen this year, so Im already looking forward to watching this match from Final Battle in the coming days.


----------



## SAMCRO

Elgin vs TJP
Great opener and some awesome spots with Elgin catching Perkins in mid air, and the match did what it should have which was make Elgin stand out. Elgin should really get the TV title in the coming months this man is just awesome, I see big things for him in the future.

Ciampa vs Rave
Was this match even announced? I don't think so, its kinda like they just threw it out there to fill up time. And like others have said no one gave a shit about the match. Rave got a descent pop but but I'm sure it was just a one night return. Descent match but overall it was kinda just meh. They really need to start giving Ciampa some mic time, its getting a little boring with him just coming out squashing someone and leaving. And the way their pushing this undefeated thing is stupid cause he's only faced jobbers, yet their acting s if he's beat most the mid card.

Bennett vs Generico vs Lethal
Was really shocked to see Maria, damn she never looked hotter, btw is she really dating Bennett? the match wasn't very good and it really didn't feel like a triple threat because it was mainly 2 guys in the ring at a time while the other was outside. Very slow paced and the ending was lame with Bennett immediately losing after Generico was eliminated, which btw was it announced it was elimination? can't remember kinda caught me off guard.

Steen vs Corino
Gotta say I was a little disappointed with this one. Generico/Steen was way better and told a better story than this did. Was kinda slow at the start and was mainly about oh shit moments which there was really only about 3, and Steen no selling the guard rail suplex was bad. I mean I cringed when I saw that and was kinda worried about him then he just got up and did the next spot without selling his back at all. The ending was good with the package piledriver through the chairs but those spots have been done a million times, so it wasn't that impressive. Really loved the after match stuff that went down with Steen destroying Jacobs and Generico just wish he would have got Cornette as well.

Tag Team Gauntlet
This one dragged on too long and i was getting kinda tired by this point. Don't wanna go into all the spots and moments as there wasn't much but I'm glad The Bucks won, hope they take the belts in the coming months as their finisher is awesome as fuck. But overall boring match with a few descent spots.


Strong's open challenge
Was really curious to find out who he was facing, and gotta say I was really shocked when I heard the KOW's music but kinda felt a little bad for Hero cause this confirmed that the WWE really did take their offer back such as shame. Also felt really weird not seeing Claudio with him, as for the match it wasn't that great Hero got in some nice moments but nothing special and Roderick kinda screwed up the Sick Kick and it looked weak. Btw was Hero in this kinda shape with Claudio? cause tonight he looked really outta shape and jiggly I don't remember him looking like that when he was with Claudio.

Briscoes vs WGTT
My god this was awful, the pre match beat down went on forever then the match just started outta the blue even after the Briscoe's were in no shape to continue. The crowd turning on WGTT was hilarious considering they was built as the 2 faces that kept getting jumped by the Briscoe's and tonight was their payback but the crowd seen it as 2 outsiders owning their homegrown ROH guys. Haas really started heeling it up during the match with constantly flipping people off, its almost as if they got word to go ahead and become heels midway through the match due to the reaction. WGTT losing was surprising it really did seem as if they changed the outcome due to the reaction for WGTT, but I'm glad the belts are off them as they was boring as fuck most the time and have no personality what so ever, maybe with the heel turn they'll be better.

Davey vs Eddie III
Was going into this thinking it was gonna be great but started getting really bored mid way through and the crowd was dead most of the time. The Dragon Sleeper was wasted they built it up as this big move Eddie had mastered but he only got it locked on once and the second time just looked as if he was hugging Richards. Went on way too long and the ending was really bad. I mean did they really need to end it in the exact same manner as their last match with Richards kicking Eddie in the head? and besides that it looked weak and hardly connected and when he got the three I was just sitting there like really? like that? 

I could tell the crowd was let down but they showed them respect for how hard they worked, but the Richards Edwards thing was getting old and a 3rd match should not have happened. The ending with Steen was amazing I was sure the entire crowd was gonna turn on Davey cause Steen did kinda make him look like a pussy, can't fucking wait to see Steen/Richards its gonna be awesome. Steen really saved the show, this guy is just amazing right now this entire company needs to be built around him from this point on.


----------



## Corey

Dude two posts above me, I also loved their BITW match, actually gave it 5 stars, but this match was fucking awful.


----------



## Certified G

Jack Evans 187 said:


> Dude two posts above me, I also loved their BITW match, actually gave it 5 stars, but this match was fucking awful.


Hm, really? That sucks I was really looking forward to it tbh. 
Most of the comments on here also say the crowd was dead during the match, which obviously doesn't help in a match. I thought the atmosphere at BITW was great, which definitely helped the vibe around that match..


----------



## Corey

The Corre said:


> Hm, really? That sucks I was really looking forward to it tbh.
> Most of the comments on here also say the crowd was dead during the match, which obviously doesn't help in a match. I thought the atmosphere at BITW was great, which definitely helped the vibe around that match..


Yeah, that's all true. Imo at least you could tell there were a lot more people at BITW compared to FB, and the crowd was entirely dead for the whole second half of the show really. No great atmosphere for anything besides a few Steen moments here and there.


----------



## antoniomare007

Shirley Crabtree III said:


> Nope, this^ is what's called a strawman argument.
> 
> I was talking about people willfully ignoring the psychological flaws in Steen's match, amidst the hysteria surrounding his return/push. That's a real thing that has visibly happened, in the real world.
> 
> To clarify, the glossing-over was the main issue that I identified. The apparent double-standard, the secondary issue. Also, I'm positing that the driving forces, behind these things, are impressionability and bandwagon jumping. My reasoning for this is that the people did the same thing when Davey, himself, was being pushed as the next big thing. They also did the same thing for every "next big thing" before him.
> *
> I reserve the right to ridicule anyone that gave the Steen match close to 5* and the Davey match 0*(or N/A) or under.*


I haven't seen anyone do that, but whatever. It seems as if


----------



## Mr. Kennedy

I'm an ROH fan, but I hated this show, largely because the matches had such terrible or so little psychology that it absolutely killed the crowd. Only so much nonstop meaningless moves with no story a crowd can take. Excited for Steen Vs. Richards next year, but ROH is in a tricky spot right now because so many guys on the roster are completely vanilla and only know one style of match. 

The unprotected chairshots are idiotic and needless.


----------



## Beatles123

I think the chairshots were more of Jay being, well, crazy Jay rather than ROH going, "Let's have chairshots unblocked! " but that's just me. I don't think anyone was told to do it. IF that were the case, it's Jay and the wrestler's decision.

However, this is pure speculation.


----------



## Mr. Kennedy

Yeh, I think you're right on that, wrestlers get in there and being wrestlers they stubbornly think it'll be good because it'll get a reaction this one time, but nobody can make a case that any of the chairshots made the matches any better, so its danger for danger's sake.


----------



## Obfuscation

Plus the Briscoes are insane tough guys. You know they don't care about their safety. They just want to kill it for the fans.


----------



## Ninth Andretti

This was my 2nd time watchin a ROH ppv. I went back and watched Best In The World a couple weeks ago, which was way better than this imo. The 1st half of the show was pretty good, and I was into every match (Perkins/Elgin and Steen/Corino were what stood out for me). The 3-Way TV title match was ok...couldn't really focus cause of maria being at ringside lol.I thought Bennett might've ended up winning it, but im not suprized that Lethal retained.

Speakin of Lethal...I dont know what happened to dude's charsima.In ROH, he just seems to lack somethin that made me a fan of him back in TNA. El Generico is becoming one of my favs BTW...great, great wrestler.The Steen/Corino match was crazy. So crazy that at certain points I wanted them to end it so nobody would end up dead. It was one of the brutal matches that left you speechless, but im glad Steen's back. He's one of the main reasons why I watch ROH

Rodrick Strong/Chris Hero was aight (Im a fan of Strong's, but that was one of his worse matches that I seen so far. Truth Martini had me dying when he was doin the countout...funny guy

The 5-Tag Team Gauntlet was when things starting goin down hill. I wasn't into it that much.The Briscos/WGTT match was a diaster, a complete clusterfuck and one of the worst things I seen so far in ROH. I just couldnt make sense of what was goin on.

Edwards/Richards 3 was a victim to the incredible match they had at BITW. It was too impossible to top. One thing that annoyed me alot about this match, was all these spots.I might get hate for this, but I dont wanna see .....s kickin out of kick, after kick, after kick. Tombstone, after tombstone, german suplex after german suplex lol. The match just got ridiculously long and it tired me out of watchin them fight as long as they did. Richards and Edwards are great wrestlers no doubt, but that match was a complete joke. Steen comin out made up for it tho.

Overall it was ok...1st half of the show was great. 2nd half was a let down. I been following ROH for awhile now, still somewhat new to it..even with its flaws, its still better than the E and TNA.

Im new btw...this is my 1st post


----------



## SHIRLEY

antoniomare007 said:


> I haven't seen anyone do that, but whatever. It seems as if


A few people have done it. Bubz being one. It comes off as bandwagoning/posing.


----------



## Last Chancery

Mr. Kennedy said:


> I'm an ROH fan, but I hated this show, largely because the matches had such terrible or so little psychology that it absolutely killed the crowd. Only so much nonstop meaningless moves with no story a crowd can take. Excited for Steen Vs. Richards next year, but ROH is in a tricky spot right now because so many guys on the roster are completely vanilla and only know one style of match.
> 
> The unprotected chairshots are idiotic and needless.


Do you honestly think fans watch wrestling for psychology? I don't think that's what keeps people tuned into the matches.


----------



## Obfuscation

I want good/smart psychology in a match. I know I'm not the only one either...


----------



## seabs

*Crabtree's right about double standards between the Steen and Richards matches. They both had similar flaws but exaggerated more so in the main. Steen's selling was totally abysmal.

I enjoyed their BITW match btw but obv. hated this match. Not saying BITW was a classic with loads of positives from both guys but it was enjoyable and felt like an important match.

I don't believe any booker or agent is telling wrestlers to go out there and take unprotected head shots with chairs. Wrestlers these days do it by choice because they feel they need to get themselves and the spot over.

I'm not a fan who's gonna turn off the match because of a unprotected head shot but they are stupid with all the recent news about the effects of unprotected head shots causing brain damage to wrestlers. It's stupid with what we now know but it's their choice to kill themselves for nothing. At least in Steen/Generico last year they had a reason for doing them and they got them over. *



Last Chancery said:


> Do you honestly think fans watch wrestling for psychology? I don't think that's what keeps people tuned into the matches.


*It does if two wrestlers are gonna wrestle for 40+ minutes.*


----------



## Last Chancery

I don't know, maybe. But knowing the typical wrestling fan in the typical wrestling audience, what they pop for isn't the storytelling/psychology, but the actual moves being thrown. At least from my experience. I'd say psychology has a little to do with it, but in most cases, most typical fans, I don't think, even so much as pick up on the "story" being told in the ring. Like, if you were to ask fans at any ROH show what they enjoyed more in a match featuring El Generico, his ability to tell a story or the fact that he does some crazy moves and can sell like a champ, I'd guess most would say the latter. It's more noticeable to the average fan, certainly, and I don't believe most average fans have that deep of emotional investments in every single match. Some matches, sure, most? I don't think so. Just my take.


----------



## seabs

*Yeah I agree that casual fans will prefer the fancy moves over the psychology most of the time but when you're wrestling 41 minutes in the style that they did, most fans will get bored, casual or not because they didn't do anything to keep people invested in the match. The dead crowd response made that evident and the live crowd is a mix of both.*


----------



## English Breakfast

If ROH wants to properly progress beyond being an extremely niche product, they need to accept the fact that you cannot fully keep purists happy while trying to reign in casual fans who will want more over the top, exaggerated action at the expense of intricate psychology.


----------



## mateuspfc

Seabs said:


> *Yeah I agree that casual fans will prefer the fancy moves over the psychology most of the time but when you're wrestling 41 minutes in the style that they did, most fans will get bored, casual or not because they didn't do anything to keep people invested in the match. The dead crowd response made that evident and the live crowd is a mix of both.*


Agreed. I absolutely love matches where one wrestler targets one specific body part of the opponent, because it creates drama, builds character, and really gets the crowd involved.
It's a formula done to death, but it always works. 

Not that I hate when guys throw moves just for the sake of throwning moves, but eventually it will turn from spectacular to 'oh, he already did this, why is he doing it again?'.


----------



## Mr. Kennedy

Last Chancery said:


> Do you honestly think fans watch wrestling for psychology? I don't think that's what keeps people tuned into the matches.


Wrestling psychology is all about garnering the most emotion and reaction out of the fans as possible, nothing more. Its pretty much the most important thing about a match. People think psychology is about making it seem real, when its got nothing to do with that, people never watch a match looking out for it, it's the way the match is put together, and if there's no psychology behind a match then you get what you have at Final Battle, matches that are an endless exhibition of moves that the crowd doesn't react to because nothing means anything. 

Like I said, I'm a big ROH fan, but the style of the match on that show one after another is going to kill a crowd, not because the fans sit there and thing "OMG, he's not working a body part", but because they're done to get individual pops for pretty moves instead of building to anything, there's no drama at all, and the crowd reflected that.


----------



## antoniomare007

Last Chancery said:


> Do you honestly think fans watch wrestling for psychology? I don't think that's what keeps people tuned into the matches.


It's not about searching for psychology when watching a match (at least not for me) but the thing is, if a match has a well told story, makes sense and doesn't come off as stupid/overkill fest then chances are that a lot of people are going to enjoy it AND is very likely that the crowd will be into it. It doesn't take a genius to figure out what 2 wrestlers are trying to do.

Steen vs Generico at Steen Wolf had a bunch of stupid, dangerous spots and some no selling too but they still managed to tell a compelling story and to build to each dumb bump (something that Davey and Edwards failed miserably at) so the crowd was getting hotter and hotter as the match progressed. 

I don't care how many spots you do as long as the crowd is interested (I'm one of those people that if the match doesn't have any heat, I'm not gonna like it very much) but if you are gonna go for 40 minutes it's way easier to draw them in making sense and building the drama, not just being stiff and making everything you do useless because "there's too much intensity, no one will lay down until they are dead!".


----------



## jawbreaker

the quality of spotty hardcore matches can't be judged on the same scale as standard wrestling matches.

yes, Steen not selling anything was a problem, but that's secondary. the match was about increasing brutality of spots, the story was "will Steen win," and the goal was to make him look unbeatable.

what you're doing is telling everyone that their orange is bad because it's almost as soft as your rotten apple.


----------



## FITZ

I don't the average wrestling fan will tell you that they want to see a match with a lot of psychology but when watching a long match I think it's important to keep them interested in the match. I mean look at the Kingston/Quack match from Chikara. There were probably 1/10th of the spots yet the crowd was more invested in the match then any other match on the card. When a comeback from the face started the crowd popped. Kingston was able to get reactions doing punches that Eddie and Davey had to do superplexes over the top rope to the floor to get a similar reaction. 

Look, I actually liked the Eddie/Davey match because I was able to appreciate all the effort they put in and the match was fairly entertaining for the most part. I thought it was good but not great and when a match is the main event of the biggest show of the year just good doesn't cut it. 

Steen/Corino did have the same problems as Davey/Eddie but because the match was shorter and I cared more about the characters it didn't bother me nearly as much. ROH booked it in a way that I felt anything could happen and I really wanted to see how it all would end. To be perfectly honest I felt that there was more on the line in this match then in the title match. The selling was bad but I enjoyed myself watching the match too much to care. 

My ratings after seeing it live would probably be. 

Steen/Corino ***3/4 
Davey/Eddie ***


----------



## Mr. Kennedy

Exactly, if you look at it for what they were, all the guys worked incredibly hard, and if all you care about are moves then you'll have enjoyed it a lot. I still enjoyed Davey/Eddie, don't get me wrong, but the crowd was dead for a reason, not just because.


----------



## Neutronic

TaylorFitz said:


> I don't the average wrestling fan will tell you that they want to see a match with a lot of psychology but when watching a long match I think it's important to keep them interested in the match. I mean look at the Kingston/Quack match from Chikara. There were probably 1/10th of the spots yet the crowd was more invested in the match then any other match on the card. When a comeback from the face started the crowd popped. Kingston was able to get reactions doing punches that Eddie and Davey had to do superplexes over the top rope to the floor to get a similar reaction.
> 
> ***


Im sorry but this argument is bullshit. I always hate when fans try and do this.

You can't compare Kingston/Quack to Davey/Eddie

Why?

1. The Chikara crowd is insanely different from an ROH crowd. Mainly because the Chikara crowd will cheer anything (and I mean anything).

2. Quack/Eddie is a different story than Davey/Eddie. Quack and Eddie was a student/master gimmick where Davey and Eddie was more of, two guys on equal footing that know each other well.

3. Quack/Eddie wasn't in New York bro


I always hate when wrestling fans try and go

"Well X match in X promotion with X fans did this"

It's an entirely different crowd, area, and match style.


----------



## heyman deciple

Neutronic said:


> Im sorry but this argument is bullshit. I always hate when fans try and do this.
> 
> You can't compare Kingston/Quack to Davey/Eddie
> 
> Why?
> 
> 1. The Chikara crowd is insanely different from an ROH crowd. Mainly because the Chikara crowd will cheer anything (and I mean anything).
> 
> 2. Quack/Eddie is a different story than Davey/Eddie. Quack and Eddie was a student/master gimmick where Davey and Eddie was more of, two guys on equal footing that know each other well.
> 
> 3. Quack/Eddie wasn't in New York bro
> 
> 
> I always hate when wrestling fans try and go
> 
> "Well X match in X promotion with X fans did this"
> 
> It's an entirely different crowd, area, and match style.


I don't think the Chakira fanbase and "core" ROH fanbase is all that different.

They're both east coast indy feds, Chikara mainly works Philly but has branched out while ROH mainly works New York but has branched out.

The NYC and Philly fanbases are not that different hell ROH began in Philly and on their last TV deal ran Philly almost exclusively.

The Chakira fans are more accepting of comedy than possibly the ROH fanbase but that's part of Chakira's appeal.

But at the end of the day I don't consider their fanbases all that different.

In fact in terms of Indy wrestling I feel those promotions have very similar fanbases.

Fans looking for high quality indy wrestling.

TBH if ROH were to add more comedy I don't think their fans would mind. 

Then again what do I know my all time favorite indies were IWS (Steen, Generico, Wellington, Viking, Matthews & Jagged, Sexxxy Eddie, Franky The Mobster) in Quebec and JAPW (05,06) back when Fat Frank gave a fuck.


----------



## Coffey

Neutronic said:


> "Well X match in X promotion with X fans did this"


I don't think Algebra was your best subject, was it?


----------



## seancarleton77

TaylorFitz said:


> Davey/Eddie ***


I don't know, that's a little high for a match that was hyped as being great, and ended up being 5x worse than any Steve Corino match I've ever seen.


----------



## heyman deciple

I just had a thought with this being ROH's "WRESTLEMANIA" should we be more accepting of the fact the show went 4 hours.

IMO it didn't need to go 4 hours but is it possible that's what ROH was going for rather than poor time management.

Although there's no doubt the first half of the show killed the crowd leading to an uphill second half.

The tag gauntlet should have been on earlier while the TV title 3 way would have been perfect coming out of intermission. Not only with El Generico and the Bennett heat but MARIA!

While Steen and Corino should have for sure been higher on the card.

I think I understand the thinking put the co main on early so Davey and Eddie don't have to follow it right after but in execution it didn't really work.

Plus they had Steen running in post main event but still. 

I mean in all honest if the PPV had ended with the first half I think everyone would have been happy.

And that's not good when you still have a LONG second half to go that includes your World Title match and "top" program.


----------



## Neutronic

heyman deciple said:


> I don't think the Chakira fanbase and "core" ROH fanbase is all that different.
> 
> They're both east coast indy feds, Chikara mainly works Philly but has branched out while ROH mainly works New York but has branched out.
> 
> The NYC and Philly fanbases are not that different hell ROH began in Philly and on their last TV deal ran Philly almost exclusively.
> 
> The Chakira fans are more accepting of comedy than possibly the ROH fanbase but that's part of Chakira's appeal.
> 
> But at the end of the day I don't consider their fanbases all that different.
> 
> In fact in terms of Indy wrestling I feel those promotions have very similar fanbases.
> 
> Fans looking for high quality indy wrestling.
> 
> TBH if ROH were to add more comedy I don't think their fans would mind.
> 
> Then again what do I know my all time favorite indies were IWS (Steen, Generico, Wellington, Viking, Matthews & Jagged, Sexxxy Eddie, Franky The Mobster) in Quebec and JAPW (05,06) back when Fat Frank gave a fuck.


If you've ever been to a Chikara Show you'd know how different their fanbase is

Chikara fans usually wont boo anything bad on a Chikara show. They tend to play along with the product. Hell they arent even allowed to get decent chants going at a Chikara show.

Chikara fans are a lot more respectful I should say. ANd like I said. They'll pop for anything.


----------



## seabs

jawbreaker said:


> the quality of spotty hardcore matches can't be judged on the same scale as standard wrestling matches.
> 
> yes, Steen not selling anything was a problem, but that's secondary. the match was about increasing brutality of spots, the story was "will Steen win," and the goal was to make him look unbeatable.
> 
> what you're doing is telling everyone that their orange is bad because it's almost as soft as your rotten apple.


*Steen/Corino would have actually been really good if the roles were reversed so it made sense but instead Steen was the heel so it was kinda stupid. Put the Steen as the babyface and Corino as the heel, do the same match and it'd be ten times better. Steen had loads of near falls to kick out of and looked great after taking a load of sick bumps but all of that builds up babyface heat, not heel heat. The story should have been "will Corino stay down" not "will Steen stay down". Of course the whole thing was messed up anyway when Steen turned at BITW and everyone still cheered him louder than anyone else. At least WWE had the sense to capitalise and make Punk babyface when it happened to them. *


heyman deciple said:


> I just had a thought with this being ROH's "WRESTLEMANIA" should we be more accepting of the fact the show went 4 hours.
> 
> IMO it didn't need to go 4 hours but is it possible that's what ROH was going for rather than poor time management.
> 
> Although there's no doubt the first half of the show killed the crowd leading to an uphill second half.
> 
> The tag gauntlet should have been on earlier while the TV title 3 way would have been perfect coming out of intermission. Not only with El Generico and the Bennett heat but MARIA!
> 
> While Steen and Corino should have for sure been higher on the card.
> 
> I think I understand the thinking put the co main on early so Davey and Eddie don't have to follow it right after but in execution it didn't really work.
> 
> Plus they had Steen running in post main event but still.
> 
> I mean in all honest if the PPV had ended with the first half I think everyone would have been happy.
> 
> And that's not good when you still have a LONG second half to go that includes your World Title match and "top" program.


*Steen/Corino had to go on before intermission because of the Generico angle and all the mess they made with the weapon spots that had to be tidied up. Leaves more time for the impact of the destruction of Generico to set in with fans watching live as well. 

The show going over 4 hours with intermission didn't really bother me that much because there time management has been pretty strict for the other iPPVs this year and it's one of their biggest shows anyway so better here than somewhere else.*


----------



## Beatles123

on the subject of psychology, I've seen some people assume that ROH never does that--that isn't the case. There was even Story telling in Davey/Eddie, It just depends on what you consider part of the story or not. I felt that there was a point where Eddie was trying so hard to beat him that he actually almost had Davey in the position Eddie was in at BITW and he was trying to mock the "You'll always be my brother" aspect...which backfired by the end when Davey had enough and had to resort to kicking him unconscious.

I might be looking too much into that, but that's the point: It all depends on how much psychology matters to you and what you can take from what's being put on in the ring.

ROH has had many times where they "Work over" body parts...not the least of which being the tag gauntlet where Titus was injured. They used the injured leg to tell the story of how the Young Bucks "Cheated" for the victory. that's what I personally took from it, anyway.


----------



## Mr. Kennedy

Yeh, and when Rhett Titus was helped to the back, you could have heard a rat piss on cotton, nobody cared because the psychology of the match was so fucked up.

Ultimately, the crowd didn't get into much on the show, very little came across as major league, and I truly believe its because the layout of the matches themselves, I'm guessing by the wrestlers, was done to be an esoteric parade of cool looking shit instead of doing anything with substance that led to a reaction. Davey and Eddie are talented as hell, but if I let somebody kick me that hard in the head and get no reaction at all, I'd quit the business.


----------



## heyman deciple

Neutronic said:


> If you've ever been to a Chikara Show you'd know how different their fanbase is
> 
> Chikara fans usually wont boo anything bad on a Chikara show. They tend to play along with the product. Hell they arent even allowed to get decent chants going at a Chikara show.
> 
> Chikara fans are a lot more respectful I should say. ANd like I said. They'll pop for anything.


Maybe it's the fact some of the stuff is so insane like guys throwing air grenades and the wrestlers selling it or the whole transe tag team spot that even something bad goes over. Like the fans think all that other insane shit is part of the show so this must be intentionally bad so they pop for it.

Plus the Wrestling marching band act (who is now part of The Embassey) which I just love.

Although I believe you will find alot more kids at a Chikara show than a ROH show.

It's just my opinion that the shows are so insane it may be hard to think of anything negatively.

Like a bad acid trip, no matter how insane shit gets your just not going to question it.


----------



## Neutronic

You know something is wrong when North Carolina has a better crowd than NY

NY fans are insanely spoiled


----------



## THECHAMPION

Neutronic said:


> If you've ever been to a Chikara Show you'd know how different their fanbase is
> 
> Chikara fans usually wont boo anything bad on a Chikara show. They tend to play along with the product. Hell they arent even allowed to get decent chants going at a Chikara show.
> 
> Chikara fans are a lot more respectful I should say. ANd like I said. They'll pop for anything.


This isn't true. I've been to a handful of Chikara shows, and a lot more than a handful of ROH shows and the Chikara crowd boos just not as much as the ROH crowd. And there are things that don't get good reactions from the crowd.

And what do you mean they aren't allowed to get decent chants going? Chikara crowds chant some witty stuff (As much as a chant can be witty) in large part because of the no cursing rule. Cursing is just a crutch most of the time for the ROH crowd.

That said they're not the exact same audience. They put on too wildly different a product to be the same thing.


----------



## jawbreaker

any crowd that chants "this is wrestling" is a terrible crowd. period.


----------



## flag sabbath

Seabs said:


> *Steen/Corino would have actually been really good if the roles were reversed so it made sense but instead Steen was the heel so it was kinda stupid. Put the Steen as the babyface and Corino as the heel, do the same match and it'd be ten times better. Steen had loads of near falls to kick out of and looked great after taking a load of sick bumps but all of that builds up babyface heat, not heel heat. The story should have been "will Corino stay down" not "will Steen stay down". Of course the whole thing was messed up anyway when Steen turned at BITW and everyone still cheered him louder than anyone else. At least WWE had the sense to capitalise and make Punk babyface when it happened to them. *


Not only did everyone want Steen to win, but they knew he would too. It was booking at its most irrelevant.

And now they're trying to portray Steen as the heel for 'holding the company hostage', even though the majority of ROH fans want him as their figurehead. Final Battle highlighted just how out of touch Cornette is with his own audience.


----------



## Neutronic

flag sabbath said:


> Not only did everyone want Steen to win, but they knew he would too. It was booking at its most irrelevant.
> 
> And now they're trying to portray Steen as the heel for 'holding the company hostage', even though the majority of ROH fans want him as their figurehead. Final Battle highlighted just how out of touch Cornette is with his own audience.


Not sure how Steen is a face

He's a sick, sadistic, asshole who's only goal is to hold the company hostage.

Fans lvoe anti authority, remember Austin as a heel?


----------



## Beatles123

Yeah, they aren't cheering him because they are booking steen the wrong way, they'll cheer him because he is who he is.

They can still build around him as a heel. Whoever they build up to face him as champ can get the crowd behind him as long as they make steen the asshole he was during the Genericho feud.


----------



## Mr. Kennedy

Steen is the rebellious guy that swears, that you're not supposed to see, that destroys people, that does and says what he wants...if they didn't want him to be cheered in the long run I'd say this is terrible booking, but if he gets over big then go with it.


----------



## FITZ

Neutronic said:


> Im sorry but this argument is bullshit. I always hate when fans try and do this.
> 
> You can't compare Kingston/Quack to Davey/Eddie
> 
> Why?
> 
> 1. The Chikara crowd is insanely different from an ROH crowd. Mainly because the Chikara crowd will cheer anything (and I mean anything).
> 
> 2. Quack/Eddie is a different story than Davey/Eddie. Quack and Eddie was a student/master gimmick where Davey and Eddie was more of, two guys on equal footing that know each other well.
> 
> 3. Quack/Eddie wasn't in New York bro
> 
> 
> I always hate when wrestling fans try and go
> 
> "Well X match in X promotion with X fans did this"
> 
> It's an entirely different crowd, area, and match style.


I was in both crowds and they are the last two indy title matches that I've seen (aside from Cage of Death) live. I'll admit that the stories are different but all I was saying is that the fans cared about one match with less spots because the match told a story while Eddie and Davey did 10x more crazy moves and got half the reaction from double the fans. Eddie/Davey and Eddie/Quack are both wrestling matches, they can be compared. And they aren't that different. Both had been built for months and both were for the top title in a company at the biggest show of the year for that company. One match engaged the crowd and had the fans going crazy and the other didn't.



seancarleton77 said:


> I don't know, that's a little high for a match that was hyped as being great, and ended up being 5x worse than any Steve Corino match I've ever seen.


I was fairly entertained for 40 minutes because watching two guys beat the shit out of each other can be a lot of fun. I can't go and give it a bad rating and say that I didn't get bored and was basically entertained the whole time.


----------



## Concrete

That's it. I don't believe Eddie vs Davey is nearly as bad as people want to believe it was. It was tons of action for 40 minutes. There really wasn't a story or anything so it won't get a high rating but I don't believe there is was anything that I personally believe would make it terrible match. They through lots of moves at each other. Lots of the time the crowd didn't buy into the near falls and people weren't invested in what should have been considered a big match. I don't shit on well executed spotfests so I wouldn't feel right shitting on this match.


----------



## Zatiel

I just got bored with Richards/Edwards. I figured they would learn from their first match, which burned out an already-tired crowd with overkill. This time the crowd was more or less dead from the start, and they didn't do anything to earn them back except do even more crazy overkill. The best parts of the first match were Richards going for all the crazy ins on submission holds, and Edwards finding blunt ways to break his hold, like stomping on his face in a Jujugatame. Here, after Edwards supposedly trained with a UFC legend, they had even less mat wrestling direction and innovation.

I think my big problem was Edwards wrestling this like every other match he does. He didn't seem like a changed man, didn't bring anything fresh to the table aside from a move or two. I think building the match around holds they desperately wanted to get and that would hurt the other guy would have made something much more dramatic than seeing how many dozen headstrikes they could get back up from.


----------



## SHIRLEY

jawbreaker said:


> the quality of spotty hardcore matches can't be judged on the same scale as standard wrestling matches.
> 
> yes, Steen not selling anything was a problem, but that's secondary. the match was about increasing brutality of spots, the story was "will Steen win," and the goal was to make him look unbeatable.
> 
> what you're doing is telling everyone that their orange is bad because it's almost as soft as your rotten apple.


I agree with the first point, which is one of the reasons why I hate star ratings. Then again, quite a few people _have_ rated these matches as though they can be judged on the same scale, praising the storytelling/psychology of the spotty deathmatch over that of the main.

The Steen match itself was fun as hell but it definitely wasn't at the top end of any universal Match Quality™ scale, that has the Davey match at the bottom (as one or two bandwagon jumpers have tried to convince us). Aside from the no-selling, Steen looked well overweight and clearly had his knees heavily strapped - as hot as the angle is, he has physical limitations. As Seabs mentioned, Corino's awesome year-long redemption angle was pretty much glossed over too.

I need to re-watch the main event, before I form a proper opinion on it, but it seemed to be a really good, if flawed, athletic showcase that back-referenced last year's FB Davey match. The main problems being that it was all a bit a formality, they didn't hit overdrive after the mark-out Severn brawl and that Steen had been positioned as the hook of the show.

In a related note, in today's free WON audio Bryan Alvarez said "Davey Richards is great. Eddie Edwards is great. I really loved the story that their match told.".


----------



## Bubz

@ Crabtree, I know the Steen match had selling issues, but in a match as brutal and fun as that I was able to look past it, I also just enjoyed the hell out of it. And also jawbreaker makes a good point about the quality of two entirely different matches can't be compared, and I never compared them at all.

As for the Davey/Eddie match, I'm a huge Davey fan, but that match was seriously awful. They wrestled for 40 minutes and there was no story or selling in the slightest, just moves upon moves upon moves and I got bored about 10 minutes in and found the rest very hard to watch. I'm not bandwaggoning at all. I loved their BITW match, and looking back on it, I probably did rate the Steen/Corino match too high, but it was a much better match than Davey/Eddie III. On re-watch I rated Steen/Corino ****.


----------



## antoniomare007

I'm so glad I don't share the same opinion with Bryan fucking Alvarez or Dave Meltzer for that matter. 

I do hate when people say "the match had no story!" though (and not just in Davey/Edwards III). Every match has a story, the key is how the wrestlers are able to tell it, the structure they give to it and how they execute.


----------



## seabs

*Wrestling reporters always praise ROH matches so it's not really shocking.*


----------



## just1988

I'm watching Final Battle right now and I have to say, I never really found Maria that attractive before but WOW did she look great and what an awesome chant from the crowd "CM Punk" although I thought "sloppy seconds" was a bit harsh.


----------



## FITZ

just1988 said:


> I'm watching Final Battle right now and I have to say, I never really found Maria that attractive before but WOW did she look great and what an awesome chant from the crowd "CM Punk" although I thought "sloppy seconds" was a bit harsh.


I take credit for starting it on my side of the building.


----------



## NikkiSixx

Finally got a chance to watch Final Battle today. I may have, um, fallen asleep during Richards vs. Edwards. Oops.


----------



## Emperor DC




----------



## flag sabbath

Great shot of TJP - his expression pretty much sums up the rest of the show.


----------



## The Streak

It ws a wrestling show, with good wrestling matches and a couple of brawls. Some of you take things far too seriously. HE DIDN'T SELL A CLOTHESLINE FOR 40 SECONDS, THE WORLD WILL END.


----------



## BKKsoulcity

Edwards/Richards at BITW was a 5 star match in my opinion based on the fact I have watched it 3 times already and still continue to try and watch it.

But WOW this Final Battle match was not even close to as amazing. Really wish Eddie won but whatever. Steen will get Davey.


----------



## SHIRLEY

@DeeCee - I was about to post some of those too. Here's some more.



Spoiler: Tons of pics


























































































































http://getlostphotography.smugmug.com/Other/2011-12-23-ROH-Final-Battle/


----------



## seabs

:mark:


----------



## Chismo

Holy Batman!


----------



## jawbreaker

guy in the front row staring at Maria is the best part of that picture


----------



## seabs

*Was better than watching that poor work in the ring. Nigel's commentary regarding Maria was brilliant. Nigel's pretty meh on the TV show, or at least the episodes I watched up to but his commentary was so good during this show. Kelly still does my head in though.

Sucked that Maria didn't actually do anything. Doubt she'll back on a regular or semi regular basis either given how little she did and the fact that she didn't really look motivated to be there. *


----------



## Emperor DC

I loved Nigel and Kevin during Maria's entrance

--

"Look at those Kanellas!"

"That's her surname."

...

..

"Shes definitely worth a Donald."

"A what?"

"Donald Duck"


----------



## Corey

Ratings from the Observer. I have no idea what the fuck they were watching in the last two matches...

Meltzer:

Michael Elgin vs. T.J. Perkins **3/4
Tommaso Ciampa vs. Jimmy Rave *3/4
Jay Lethal vs. Mike Bennett vs. El Generico (Elimination Match) ***1/4
Kevin Steen vs. Steve Corino (No DQ Match) ***3/4
Cedric Alexander & Caprice Coleman vs. Harlem & Lancelot Bravado vs. Adam Cole & Kyle O'Reilly vs. Matt & Nick Jackson vs. Kenny King & Rhett Titus (Gauntlet Match) NR?
Roderick Strong vs. Chris Hero **1/4
Mark & Jay Briscoe vs. Charlie Haas & Shelton Benjamin ***1/4
Davey Richards vs. Eddie Edwards ****

Bryan:

Michael Elgin vs. TJ Perkins **
Tomasso Ciampa vs. Jimmy Rave **
Jay Lethal vs. El Generico vs. Mike Bennett (Elimination Match) ***1/4
Kevin Steen vs. Steve Corino (No DQ Match) NR?
Cedric Alexander & Caprice Coleman vs. Bravado Brothers vs. Adam Cole & Kyle O'Reilly vs. The Young Bucks vs. All Night Express (Gauntlet Match) ***
Roderick Strong vs. Chris Hero ***1/4
Charlie Haas & Shelton Benjamin vs. The Briscoes NR?
Davey Richards vs. Eddie Edwards ****1/2


----------



## Chismo

lolObserver...


----------



## seabs

*Neither of them follows ROH closely enough these days for their opinions on the current product to be paid attention to. *


----------



## ywall2breakerj

Were they on crack?


----------



## Neutronic

Yeah!, How dare they like something, everybody else on an internet forum hated!


----------



## Ham and Egger

I just finished watching Edwards/Richards and what bothered me is how the pulled the exact same finish as in BITW. The match was great but the finish was crap.


----------

