# Kevin Nash Mocks Will Ospreay's 5 Star Matches; Ospreay Responds



## 5 Star Giulia ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ (Apr 21, 2014)

*Will Ospreay is a prime example of wrestling ability not mattering when it comes to drawing a crowd. I love watching this guy wrestle, but New Japan attendance has dropped 50% with him as a top guy over the last two years. Characters and promos will always be more important than wrestling.*


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1563950563896819718

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1564023392952631298


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## Hotdiggity11 (Aug 24, 2006)

Ospreay went straight to the usual joke. Weak.


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## Reggie Dunlop (Nov 2, 2015)

Fuck Nash. The ONLY thing he ever had going for him is his God-given size. He never could actually work worth a shit.


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## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

WWE: 10 Lowest Drawing WWE Champions Of All Time


The belt doesn't make the man, the man makes the belt.




whatculture.com


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## 5 Star Giulia ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ (Apr 21, 2014)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1564033134341021697

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1564035367984136192


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## BrrrGoesWooo! (Mar 29, 2021)

The Legit Lioness said:


> *Will Ospreay is a prime example of wrestling ability not mattering when it comes to drawing a crowd. I love watching this guy wrestle, but New Japan attendance has dropped 50% with him as a top guy over the last two years. Characters and promos will always be more important than wrestling.*
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1563950563896819718
> ...


Not like there was a pandemic on or anything.


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## 5 Star Giulia ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ (Apr 21, 2014)

Reggie Dunlop said:


> Fuck Nash. The ONLY thing he ever had going for him is his God-given size. He never could actually work worth a shit.


*Yeah, that's kind of the point. Kevin Nash made millions with 3 moves and the best promo ability in WCW. Meanwhile, Will Ospreay has New Japan on pace to be outdrawn by STARDOM by summer 2023.*


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## .christopher. (Jan 14, 2014)

Hotdiggity11 said:


> Ospreay went straight to the usual joke. Weak.


It's because this gen has nothing about them. It's just movezz. Zero personality, which translated into his bog standard comeback.


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## RapShepard (Jun 20, 2014)

Nash is right as fuck and all the "I like real wrestling" folk know it in there hearts. 

Will is dope though, but Meltzer's ratings are a joke. Man is pretending he's watching damn near all time classics on a daily basis. No promotion is ever going to put out that type of quality.


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## Dr. Middy (Jan 21, 2015)

Wait, you're attributing the crowd being cut in half due to Osperay and not to Covid? That's just a horrid take. 

Osperay and Nash aren't really comparable at any sort of level anyway so I don't get bothering with comparing them at all, especially since we already got the other thread up basically with everybody hating on Will because "modern wrestling sucks." Man it's tiring. 

I always see people in the IWC put Dave's ratings on such a higher level than he ever did though. I don't really get blaming him for that one, people could just ignore his ratings.


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## Nothing Finer (Apr 12, 2017)

> Will Ospreay has had more 5-star matches (4) in 1 month than CM Punk, John Cena, and Kurt Angle have combined in their entire career (3).


This says far more about the hyperinflation of Meltzer's ratings than it does about Ospreay's ability relative to those guys. The Anarchy in the Arena match got 5 stars FFS.


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## Stellar (May 30, 2016)

I haven't been keeping up with Nash's podcasts but in like the first or second episode he did a sarcastic laugh over the "tear a quad" joke that people like to say about him. So Ospreay going to that joke really is bad timing. It's an old joke. Nash has heard it a billion times by now. It's nothing original at this point.


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## Shaz Cena (9 mo ago)

When wrestlers care more about five star ratings over wrestling I can't take them seriously as wrestlers. It shows they care more about doing great cherographed fights with stunning gymnastics over making us see a real fight. If I wanna see that I rather watch Hollywood movies that have greater fights.


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## BrrrGoesWooo! (Mar 29, 2021)

The Legit Lioness said:


> *Yeah, that's kind of the point. Kevin Nash made millions with 3 moves and the best promo ability in WCW. Meanwhile, Will Ospreay has New Japan on pace to be outdrawn by STARDOM by summer 2023.*


Damn.. 3 moves and somehow still ended up hobbled like this before getting surgery.










Should have listened to the veterans and worked a safer style. Working a mic is hard on the body and you're gonna regret it later in life. /s

Also all this stuff about Ospreay being bland or can't talk -- He's actually not that bad and can play a real good scumbag heel in longer singles matches with built up rivalries in NJPW. We might get to see a little more of it with him and Kenny in AEW in future, but this trios tournament and the build to All Out in general is really rushed and convoluted.


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## PhenomenalOne11 (Oct 2, 2016)

Will Ospreay is a dumb fucking mark, how this guy is considered one of the best in the world is a mystery to me.


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## 5 Star Giulia ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ (Apr 21, 2014)

Dr. Middy said:


> Wait, you're attributing the crowd being cut in half due to Osperay and not to Covid? That's just a horrid take.
> 
> Osperay and Nash aren't really comparable at any sort of level anyway so I don't get bothering with comparing them at all, especially since we already got the other thread up basically with everybody hating on Will because "modern wrestling sucks." Man it's tiring.
> 
> I always see people in the IWC put Dave's ratings on such a higher level than he ever did though. I don't really get blaming him for that one, people could just ignore his ratings.


*STARDOM went from 6th in Japan to #2 since Covid, which is the first time for a women's company being that successful in Japan, and they are on pace to pass New Japan next year. Save the bullshit excuses.*


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## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

Again, Nash knows something about not selling merch and moving the needle in the wrong direction. He speaks from experience.


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## Dr. Middy (Jan 21, 2015)

The Legit Lioness said:


> *STARDOM went from 6th in Japan to #2 since Covid, which is the first time for a women's company being that successful in Japan, and they are on pace to pass New Japan next year. Save the bullshit excuses.*


I'm not, but you're laughably blaming half of NJPW's audience leaving on Osperay, which is hilarious. It's still Okada's show, and Will was even basically off the main shows due to injuries and Covid stuff for a ton of months in the middle of 2021.

In 2019 they had over 400K in numbers, 2020 they had 223K (mostly thanks to double WK shows and some other bigger shows prior to Covid) and then with the Covid limitations last year they had their lowest attendance. This also could be due to EVIL getting a random title reign, and a lot of injuries too (Ibushi, Osperay, Natio, etc all had many months where they were injured). 

I get you love Stardom, but you don't need to deepthroat them all the time, come on now. They did a great job increasing their presence with how good their roster was, nobody is debating that.


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## BrrrGoesWooo! (Mar 29, 2021)

The Legit Lioness said:


> *STARDOM went from 6th in Japan to #2 since Covid, which is the first time for a women's company being that successful in Japan, and they are on pace to pass New Japan next year. Save the bullshit excuses.*


@Dr. Middy They also got bought by NJPW's parent company Bushiroad in the same timeframe -- almost like Bushiroad is a company that knows how to promote wrestling and everything outside of NJPW have been far distant competitors for almost a decade now.


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## Dr. Middy (Jan 21, 2015)

BrrrGoesWooo! said:


> @Dr. Middy They also got bought by NJPW's parent company Bushiroad in the same timeframe -- almost like Bushiroad is a company that knows how to promote wrestling and everything outside of NJPW have been far distant competitors for almost a decade now.


Bushiroad did help them a ton, because they put a lot of effort in promoting them. It's awesome how well they've been doing, I really should watch some of their top matches when I have time, but from everything I have read and seen, they got some of the best women's wrestling in the world right now. All of their success is well deserved.


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## 5 Star Giulia ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ (Apr 21, 2014)

Dr. Middy said:


> I'm not, but you're laughably blaming half of NJPW's audience leaving on Osperay, which is hilarious. It's still Okada's show, and Will was even basically off the main shows due to injuries and Covid stuff for a ton of months in the middle of 2021.
> 
> In 2019 they had over 400K in numbers, 2020 they had 223K (mostly thanks to double WK shows and some other bigger shows prior to Covid) and then with the Covid limitations last year they had their lowest attendance. This also could be due to EVIL getting a random title reign, and a lot of injuries too (Ibushi, Osperay, Natio, etc all had many months where they were injured).
> 
> I get you love Stardom, but you don't need to deepthroat them all the time, come on now. They did a great job increasing their presence with how good their roster was, nobody is debating that.


*It's not deep throating. You blamed the pandemic in Japan for New Japan's shitty attendance and I cited a Japanese company that is thriving under the same conditions. You then decided to follow up with more bullshit excuses right after being called out on it. Don't get mad because you're wrong.*


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## The Raw Smackdown (Jan 8, 2017)

Dr. Middy said:


> I always see people in the IWC put Dave's ratings on such a higher level than he ever did though. I don't really get blaming him for that one, people could just ignore his ratings.


But then people wouldn't have anything to bitch about regarding Meltzer.

But seriously thought. If people hate Dave so much then why give his takes any kind of attention. Me personally I don't care what he thinks on anything. I'M going to like what I like. And I don't think any wrestlers care all that much either.


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## BrrrGoesWooo! (Mar 29, 2021)

Dr. Middy said:


> Bushiroad did help them a ton, because they put a lot of effort in promoting them. It's awesome how well they've been doing, I really should watch some of their top matches when I have time, but from everything I have read and seen, they got some of the best women's wrestling in the world right now. All of their success is well deserved.


Oh most definitely, I like Stardom too and they pretty clearly are the #2 promotion, I just don't get Legit blaming down attendance on Ospreay (not EVIL's panned run, or Ibushi or Okada) when there was a massive pandemic that was squeezing even NJPW let alone every other promotion in Japan and the world -- instead of just saying that Stardom is awesome and is now hooked up with a pretty solid parent company that knows how to promote them and grow their audience at home and internationally.

"*Save the bullshit excuses*." lol.

Oh, new post, looks like he's doubling down now. Don't push too hard or you'll be called a troll and blocked.

Not that that's a bad thing


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## RapShepard (Jun 20, 2014)

bdon said:


> Again, Nash knows something about not selling merch and moving the needle in the wrong direction. He speaks from experience.


So you're just going to lie like the nWo and Wolf Pack didn't and don't still sell merch . You can argue ultimately what happened with the Kliq wasn't good long term. But the notion Nash didn't make no money is absurd.


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## Geeee (Aug 9, 2010)

Will Ospreay is incredible but we definitely give one man's opinion on match quality too much power


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## Jersey (Jun 24, 2014)

Quad jokes? JFC dudes so corny these days. At least come with something fresh and not copied.


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## CenaBoy4Life (Jul 31, 2013)

The fact people think Ospreay is incredible shows the sorry state of the industry outside of WWE. His 6 man was a over choreographed shit show. I dont know how anyone can watch his matches then classics from Eddie, Angle, Austin, HBk, HHH, Taker etc and think yeah this guy is better or in their league.

Its mind blowing and shows how meltzer is able to brainwash the iwc with his star ratings. People are so desperate to like guys outside of WWE or show there is something better...when really there isnt clearly if this loser is the best there is. Before this twat Meltzer did the same with the young bucks being the greatest tag team ever.


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## jobber77 (5 mo ago)

1. why did you feel the need to make another thread on the same topic

2. Why does anyone get upset over what Dave rates and how he rates them ? feel free to ignore the star system it isn't that serious ..like getting upset over a game getting a GOTY award 


3. Nash looking really petty here...tired of all these old heads doing nothing but bashing guys over "this isn't how things where done in my day"

This is why sting is the goat ...dude is out there using his rep and skills to lift up younger guys


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## 5 Star Giulia ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ (Apr 21, 2014)

RapShepard said:


> So you're just going to lie like the nWo and Wolf Pack didn't and don't still sell merch . You can argue ultimately what happened with the Kliq wasn't good long term. But the notion Nash didn't make no money is absurd.


*Are people really bringing up Diesel like the NWO wasn't the most successful faction of all time and almost put the WWF out of business? The desperation is at an all time high. Bless the ignore list.*


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## Dr. Middy (Jan 21, 2015)

The Legit Lioness said:


> *It's not deep throating. You blamed the pandemic in Japan for New Japan's shitty attendance and I cited a Japanese company that is thriving under the same conditions. You then decided to follow up with more bullshit excuses right after being called out on it. Don't get mad because you're wrong.*


So Stardom held their year end Climax show in Korakuen Hall in 2019 for an attendance of 1,334 people. The next year in 2020 it was 713. In 2021 it was 725. The attendance conveniently was cut in half, which is what happened to all of the attendances of all japanese wrestling shows during Covid due to the policies they had to comply by, because it wasn't just NJPW doing this.

If you looked at any NJPW crowds during Covid, why is there convenient spacing between all of the fans in the crowd during every event? Their crowds in 2019 weren't like that, and even early 2020 prior to lockdowns they weren't like that either. Cutting your crowds in half because of covid will end up with lesser overall attendance compared to pre-covid where you didn't have to do that. THAT's all I was trying to say, but apparently according to you that's not an excuse which is why I was baffled. With that logic, Drew McIntyre's title reign was the worst ever because he drew no fans, ignoring the thunderdome component.

Stardom increased during this time because they had better financial backing by Bushiroad that let to upgrade into some larger venues, like how their anniversary show went from Korakuen to Budokan in 2021. Even with fans still needing to be spaced out, Korakuen only holds a maximum of 2,000 people, Budokan has a max of nearly 15,000.


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## RapShepard (Jun 20, 2014)

The Legit Lioness said:


> *Are people really bringing up Diesel like the NWO wasn't the most successful faction of all time and almost put the WWF out of business? The desperation is at an all time high. Bless the ignore list.*


It's just a shit situation because Nash and Will are both dope wrestlers, just for different reasons.


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## Geeee (Aug 9, 2010)

The Legit Lioness said:


> *Are people really bringing up Diesel like the NWO wasn't the most successful faction of all time and almost put the WWF out of business? The desperation is at an all time high. Bless the ignore list.*


It's important to note that Will Ospreay is 29 and could improve as a character like Nash did (I dunno how old Nash was when he was corny babyface Diesel and too lazy to google). I think it would help to pit Will against English speaking opponents in front of English speaking audiences


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## JasmineAEW (Oct 19, 2020)

Nash during the NWO days was obviously one of wrestling’s biggest stars. He knew how to get himself over. That said, I enjoy watching Ospreay 10x more than I ever did Nash. Will is a phenomenal in-ring performer.


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## CM Buck (Sep 2, 2012)

@The Legit Lioness Ospreay does have decent character and promo ability. Just because you don't rate the gimmick doesn't make it any less true


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## Ghost Lantern (Apr 11, 2012)

JasmineAEW said:


> Nash during the NWO days was obviously one of wrestling’s biggest stars. He knew how to get himself over. That said, I enjoy watching Ospreay 10x more than I ever did Nash. Will is a phenomenal in-ring performer.


That's an interesting take. 

Did you watch wrestling while Nash was an active competitor?


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## Seth Grimes (Jul 31, 2015)

Are there people who actually gives a fuck about Meltzer ratings?


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## yeahbaby! (Jan 27, 2014)

Psh Ospreay will never understand how to draw money and sell T-shirts using nothing more than Nash-style charisma.


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## lagofala (Jun 22, 2016)

It's time fans stop using Meltzer's ratings as a barometer of success. Just like whatever you enjoy. It's hillarious how over the years Meltzer's ratings became some sort of Comic Book Grading authority.

Nash was never my favourite guy but he did have a lot of success in WWE and WCW and was a big part of WCW's initial success. "Work" also includes getting desired crowd reactions, so I don't think it's fair to say he can't work. Are people expecting him to do shooting star presses or something? I like Ospreay but his heel work is lacking IMO because fans end up cheering for him.

For this battle, Opsreay barely took out the shovel from the yard and Nash buried him with his dump truck.


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## JasmineAEW (Oct 19, 2020)

Ghost Lantern said:


> That's an interesting take.
> 
> Did you watch wrestling while Nash was an active competitor?


I sure did. I even remember Nash wrestling as “Oz” and “Vinnie Vegas” in WCW. He was never anything special in the ring, but his look and charisma made up for it in the WWE and then as part of the NWO.


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## BrrrGoesWooo! (Mar 29, 2021)

Seth Grimes said:


> Are there people who actually gives a fuck about Meltzer ratings?


Eh.. when it comes to his opinions and reviews he's like Roger Ebert. He's the most well known and has been doing it for the longest and has got a following that understand what he likes and generally agree because they like the same things.

Same as any other reviewer.

Surprised Cornette doesn't do ratings considering it was his friend who gave Meltzer the idea about 40 years ago.

Not like he's got a trademark on it or anything, just nobody else has done it, or at least done it for so long. 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1171112076049125378


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## Ghost Lantern (Apr 11, 2012)

BrrrGoesWooo! said:


> Eh.. when it comes to his opinions and reviews he's like Roger Ebert. He's the most well known and has been doing it for the longest and has got a following that understand what he likes and generally agree because they like the same things.
> 
> Same as any other reviewer.
> 
> ...



Meltzer actually manipualted the smarks. He changed the rating system from "how much the fans enjoyed it" to how many bumps and flips people took.

When Dooley and Cornette started the rating system it was about the "story" in the ring and how much it made fans react.

Pro Wrestling was always and will always be about fan reaction.


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## Ghost Lantern (Apr 11, 2012)

BrrrGoesWooo! said:


> Eh.. when it comes to his opinions and reviews he's like Roger Ebert. He's the most well known and has been doing it for the longest and has got a following that understand what he likes and generally agree because they like the same things.
> 
> Same as any other reviewer.
> 
> ...


Weasel Dooley...lol


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## Ghost Lantern (Apr 11, 2012)

I think it is very important to point out the definition of a 5 star match changed from what it was intended to what Meltzer re-invented it to be.

Originally it was something that got a crowd hot
Meltzer changed it to something that looked like a good in ring dance routine over the years.


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## thorn123 (Oct 10, 2019)

I am a huge fan of Nash. From Diesel to NWO he was awesome.

But I have really enjoyed ospreay.

But the merchandise thing doesn’t wash. It’s like asking why The Godfather movie doesn’t sell as many t shirts as Star Wars. It’s just different.

Plus ospreay is not widely known (I had never heard of him until he showed up in AEW). He is not in WWE so he hasn’t got huge exposure, so obviously he won’t sell as much merch as his WWE counterparts.


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## BrrrGoesWooo! (Mar 29, 2021)

Ghost Lantern said:


> Meltzer actually manipualted the smarks. He changed the rating system from "how much the fans enjoyed it" to how many bumps and flips people took.
> 
> When Dooley and Cornette started the rating system it was about the "story" in the ring and how much it made fans react.
> 
> Pro Wrestling was always and will always be about fan reaction.


Pretty sure he changed it to -- what did I enjoy the most.. like most reviewers do, because they're giving their personal opinion. 

People who take Meltzer ratings as gospel are weird.

But people who say you cant tell a story with fast paced action or different styles are equally weird.

It just might not be a story that some older fans like -- it's the same shit for every new generation that comes up, in every medium.

Just because Robert Johnson met at the Crossroads with the devil, doesn't mean Muddy Waters can't get his Mojo Workin', or Albert King can't talk about Blues Power.

Or just because Black Sabbath saw a figure in black, doesn't mean that Iron Maiden can't tell the tale of Murders in the Rue Morgue, and Slayer can't describe and tell the reality of Auschwitz in brutal detail.

-----

As you get older, new things are harder to get onboard with and you get more critical generally and more jaded. I certainly understand that myself, but differences in style and speed doesn't mean you can't tell stories that people resonate with.


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## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

RapShepard said:


> So you're just going to lie like the nWo and Wolf Pack didn't and don't still sell merch [emoji23]. You can argue ultimately what happened with the Kliq wasn't good long term. But the notion Nash didn't make no money is absurd.


And in that faction, he was not the draw. He was a lackey to Hogan. What we do know is that Nash failed horribly in WWE, and in WCW, the minute he tried booking himself as the man, ratings again fell apart and began the downfall of the company.

Nash’s faction was cool as hell. Nash, himself, is a cool mf’er.

Nash as an individual never drew well.


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## Ghost Lantern (Apr 11, 2012)

BrrrGoesWooo! said:


> Pretty sure he changed it to -- what did I enjoy the most.. like most reviewers do, because they're giving their personal opinion.
> 
> People who take Meltzer ratings as gospel are weird.
> 
> ...



I was tracking till you got to the Robert Johnson part....lol...

I agree Meltzer changed the rating system to what he enjoyed as opposed to what Dooley and Cornette originally intended.

But we are dealing with the consequences still today.


What Dooley called at 6 star match, this match....which was not much of a match but a brawl.






Meltzer would call garbage becase it was mainly a kick and punch brawl.

But it was what fans of that era loved.


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## RapShepard (Jun 20, 2014)

bdon said:


> And in that faction, he was not the draw. He was a lackey to Hogan. What we do know is that Nash failed horribly in WWE, and in WCW, the minute he tried booking himself as the man, ratings again fell apart and began the downfall of the company.
> 
> Nash’s faction was cool as hell. Nash, himself, is a cool mf’er.
> 
> Nash as an individual never drew well.


Hogan wasn't putting numbers on the board in WCW until Nash and Hall gave him a lifeline

Fact of the matter is Nash has some of the most positive impacts and moments in wrestling over the last 30 years. 

Now that doesn't mean he hasn't had his bad impacts. But yeah, when it comes to most impactful wrestlers of the last 50 years Nash is definitely in that top 20 bare minimum.


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## BrrrGoesWooo! (Mar 29, 2021)

Ghost Lantern said:


> I was tracking till you got to the Robert Johnson part....lol...
> 
> I agree Meltzer changed the rating system to what he enjoyed as opposed to what Dooley and Cornette originally intended.
> 
> But we are dealing with the consequences still today.


Sorry, but a lot of what I see in wrestling ties back to the same kind of arms race that I've followed in music history.

Robert Johnson is considered one of the OG's of the blues, one of the first to be recorded but was country. Muddy Waters got it electrified and brought in a bigger big band but brought in more of the kind of roughness of city living in the 40's and 50's. Albert King was great but came to prominence in the late stages of a declining genre of straight up blues in the late 50's 60's and early 70's.

-----

Just a reference to generational shifts within a style, which is all that's going on here.

-----

As we are discussing in the other thread about Bret.. this isn't something Meltzer started, the scene was already changing back then with the shift from Bret to Shawn. Faster action, more raunchiness. Bret was Albert King.


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## ByOrderOfThePB (Jul 31, 2019)

Oh a quad joke .. how mature and original 

Kinda strange to bat back at someone who is much more successful and wealthier than you, with your only leverage being that some random 60 year old man on the internet gave you an imaginary star


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## DUD (Feb 21, 2021)

The importance people put on a Senior Citizen's star rating system (positive or negative) is hilarious. It's getting to a point where I'd respect him if he didn't make shit up for the past 20+ years.


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## BrrrGoesWooo! (Mar 29, 2021)

ByOrderOfThePB said:


> Oh a quad joke .. how mature and original
> 
> Kinda strange to bat back at someone who is much more successful and wealthier than you, with your only leverage being that some random 60 year old man on the internet gave you an imaginary star




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1564035367984136192
Don't get too worked up now brother.


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## Wolf Mark (Jun 5, 2020)

bdon said:


> WWE: 10 Lowest Drawing WWE Champions Of All Time
> 
> 
> The belt doesn't make the man, the man makes the belt.
> ...












Something the Elite will never touch.


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## yeahbaby! (Jan 27, 2014)

RapShepard said:


> *Hogan wasn't putting numbers on the board in WCW until Nash and Hall gave him a lifeline*
> 
> Fact of the matter is Nash has some of the most positive impacts and moments in wrestling over the last 30 years.
> 
> Now that doesn't mean he hasn't had his bad impacts. But yeah, when it comes to most impactful wrestlers of the last 50 years Nash is definitely in that top 20 bare minimum.


He actually was putting plenty of numbers on the board. Comparing pre-Hogan WCW to 1994/5 Hogan PPVs and shows showed an increase and in some cases a big increase. Did they compare to NWO era once it exploded? Of course not but that was lightning in a bottle and one of the very few things WCW booked properly. The biggest babyface hero in the history of wrestling has turned in to a bad guy? I have to see that.


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## Ghost Lantern (Apr 11, 2012)

We would all be better if we stopped putting any emphasis on "ratings" and just watched the product to enjoy it. Which was the original emphasis of the star system, befrore Meltzer.


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## yeahbaby! (Jan 27, 2014)

Wolf Mark said:


> Something the Elite will never touch.


They do have a good chance of completely over-killing and ruining their own product like the NWO did however.


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## BLISSED & LYNCHED (Dec 21, 2021)

Ospreay isn't big on charisma but he has more than Nash. His recent words to Kenny Olivier is more entertaining than anything Diesel has done.

I can't name 1 Kevin Nash match better than 2 stars or even remember anything he was in.


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## RapShepard (Jun 20, 2014)

yeahbaby! said:


> He actually was putting plenty of numbers on the board. Comparing pre-Hogan WCW to 1994/5 Hogan PPVs and shows showed an increase and in some cases a big increase. Did they compare to NWO era once it exploded? Of course not but that was lightning in a bottle and one of the very few things WCW booked properly. The biggest babyface hero in the history of wrestling has turned in to a bad guy? I have to see that.


The first part isn't necessary, Hogan did his best WCW work in a group with Nash


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## Ghost Lantern (Apr 11, 2012)

RapShepard said:


> The first part isn't necessary, Hogan did his best WCW work in a group with Nash


But Meltzer would argue Hogan did his best work in Japan, which is my whole point. Because he tended to work harder there.


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## BrrrGoesWooo! (Mar 29, 2021)

Wolf Mark said:


> Something the Elite will never touch.


Yeah but.. Buff Bagwell is touching it.. and also cut Macho out of the picture!


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## yeahbaby! (Jan 27, 2014)

otbr87 said:


> Ospreay isn't big on charisma but he has more than Nash. His recent words to Kenny Olivier is more entertaining than anything Diesel has done.
> 
> *I can't name 1 Kevin Nash match better than 2 stars or even remember anything he was in.*


This was pretty good.











It will never. get. old.


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## BLISSED & LYNCHED (Dec 21, 2021)

yeahbaby! said:


> This was pretty good.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Shit, I forgot about that match. My bad, he does have one 5 star match!


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## BIIIG Nige (5 mo ago)

Nash I'd give a 5 star rating at sleep therapy, he sends me to sleep so borrrinnnnnggggg.


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## BrrrGoesWooo! (Mar 29, 2021)

yeahbaby! said:


> This was pretty good.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hey man -- He'd been medically cleared. 

Love Spike chillin on the outside.. "Welp, time to go to work!" gets in the ring and immediately starts going after Big Show.

Fuckin lol.

Longer clip here.


----------



## THE_OD (Nov 21, 2016)

Nothing wrong with being a good worker and taking pride in what you do... But honestly... the 5 star thing has become a joke.

1. It's overinflated. In the last 12 months Meltzer has rated 21 matches 5 stars. So it's not this super special thing it used to be

2. The 5 star rating is just the opinion of one guy, who is completely out of touch. Some of the biggest drawing, and most iconic matches of all time, never got close to a 5 star rating. Yet people still talk about them today, whereas a lot of 5 star matches are probably forgotten, or never even heard about, by most people.


----------



## 5 Star Giulia ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ (Apr 21, 2014)

Firefromthegods said:


> @The Legit Lioness Ospreay does have decent character and promo ability. Just because you don't rate the gimmick doesn't make it any less true


*He had a free shot at Kenny Omega in an actual real life personal rivalry with carte blanche and went straight to 5 Star matches. Nah.*


----------



## 5 Star Giulia ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ (Apr 21, 2014)

Dr. Middy said:


> So Stardom held their year end Climax show in Korakuen Hall in 2019 for an attendance of 1,334 people. The next year in 2020 it was 713. In 2021 it was 725. The attendance conveniently was cut in half, which is what happened to all of the attendances of all japanese wrestling shows during Covid due to the policies they had to comply by, because it wasn't just NJPW doing this.
> 
> If you looked at any NJPW crowds during Covid, why is there convenient spacing between all of the fans in the crowd during every event? Their crowds in 2019 weren't like that, and even early 2020 prior to lockdowns they weren't like that either. Cutting your crowds in half because of covid will end up with lesser overall attendance compared to pre-covid where you didn't have to do that. THAT's all I was trying to say, but apparently according to you that's not an excuse which is why I was baffled. With that logic, Drew McIntyre's title reign was the worst ever because he drew no fans, ignoring the thunderdome component.
> 
> Stardom increased during this time because they had better financial backing by Bushiroad that let to upgrade into some larger venues, like how their anniversary show went from Korakuen to Budokan in 2021. Even with fans still needing to be spaced out, Korakuen only holds a maximum of 2,000 people, Budokan has a max of nearly 15,000.


*Oh my God, go apply for a job at the Observer with this desperate spin attempt. You avoided mentioning 2022, which I'm clearly talking about, for obvious reasons.









 https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1557718720922861569
In case anyone struggles with math, STARDOM's attendance more than doubled year to year while New Japan's decreased by 50% in the last 2 years. This isn't an anime, so both promotions were in the same universe experiencing the same pandemic, just to be clear. 

Also, Bushiroad bought Stardom in October 2019, which is 5 months before the pandemic officially started, making that a completely moot point. 







*


----------



## dandeman2008 (Mar 17, 2015)

Aren't these 5 Star matches one man's opinion? Nash is right I'd rather have 0 5 star matches and millions in the bank.


----------



## Pure_Dynamite12 (Nov 3, 2015)

I've never liked an osprey match. I think he's trash. Nash on the other hand got more of a reaction out of me when he broke the streak and the fingerpoke of doom. Two objectively bad moments in wrestling. So he's still better in my eyes.


----------



## Uncle Iroh (5 mo ago)

It's not that Kevin Nash doesn't understand the value of the in-ring part of pro wrestling. Nash wasn't the greatest technical wrestler himself because of his physical limitations, but just look at who his closest friends in the business were and how they approached the in-ring part of their jobs. Being able to "go" was important to the Kliq; it just wasn't the be all and end all. This was something that was always pretty obvious to most wrestlers and fans until the rise of "stars" culture in the last 5-10 years.

It seems to me that Nash's point is similar to the "tree falling in the forest" metaphor. If there is a technically perfect wrestling match that no one sees or cares about and that leads to nothing, is it really a great professional wrestling match? I don't think so. The part of pro wrestling that takes place outside the ring (character, story, starpower, charisma, etc.) is at least as important as what takes place inside the ring. It's the same logic as what I've seen from Al Snow regarding the greatest wrestler of all time being Hulk Hogan. Someone asked him why and his simple answer was "he sold the most tickets."

Kevin Nash adores the Bucks because they got both sides of the argument and did turn themselves into merch movers and savvy businessmen while wrestling a style vastly different than what Nash did.


----------



## LongPig666 (Mar 27, 2019)

I thought Nash was dead!


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

Wolf Mark said:


> Something the Elite will never touch.


Something Roman Reigns, Brock, and a host of others will never touch.

You should leave the “tell ‘em” moments to me, got it?


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

@RapShepard , yes, Scott Hall and Nash’s ideas were money. Kevin Nash BEING money is proven to not be true when he was the face of those ideas.

We have two distinct moments in history where Nash was pushed to the forefront of the company, and in both instances, the company’s numbers took a nosedive. The nWo revolutionized wrestling. Hogan and Sting, the two main guys in WWF and WCW of the previous 10 years, were the faces of that revolution. Good on Hall and Nash for the creativity.

But again, until you can explain why numbers always dropped the minute Nash tried to step to the forefront of the company, then the two thoughts are not mutually exclusive.

And I’m saying this as a guy who loved Nash, even as Diesel (my only real WWF exposure came via some cartoony wrestling game my cousin had where the wrestlers had special powers haha), but Kevin Nash as the man never produced big money. Relatively speaking of course.


----------



## RapShepard (Jun 20, 2014)

bdon said:


> @RapShepard , yes, Scott Hall and Nash’s ideas were money. Kevin Nash BEING money is proven to not be true when he was the face of those ideas.
> 
> We have two distinct moments in history where Nash was pushed to the forefront of the company, and in both instances, the company’s numbers took a nosedive. The nWo revolutionized wrestling. Hogan and Sting, the two main guys in WWF and WCW of the previous 10 years, were the faces of that revolution. Good on Hall and Nash for the creativity.
> 
> ...


Nash not being the best draw doesn't take away from him being money. Surely folk can be draws without having to be on the Mt Rushmore of draws right?


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

RapShepard said:


> Nash not being the best draw doesn't take away from him being money. Surely folk can be draws without having to be on the Mt Rushmore of draws right?


I ain’t even claiming he isn’t on the Mt Rushmore, bro. I’m a Nash fan. Loved the dude’s work. Him mocking nearly breaking The Giant’s neck on the botched power bomb is fucking hilarious. Scott Hall and Nash oozed cool.

There’s a reason they wanted to attach the nWo to either Hogan or Sting, though. Could Nash and Hall made the nWo as popular and drew as much money without Hogan? Maybe. But the facts we have are, every time Nash had a company placed on his back as the man, the company’s numbers took a hit. 

Claiming Nash a draw would be akin to claiming one of those Uso characters or the Bucks as draws, because they stood next to Roman Reigns or Kenny Omega.


----------



## RapShepard (Jun 20, 2014)

bdon said:


> I ain’t even claiming he isn’t on the Mt Rushmore, bro. I’m a Nash fan. Loved the dude’s work. Him mocking nearly breaking The Giant’s neck on the botched power bomb is fucking hilarious. Scott Hall and Nash oozed cool.
> 
> There’s a reason they wanted to attach the nWo to either Hogan or Sting, though. Could Nash and Hall made the nWo as popular and drew as much money without Hogan? Maybe. But the facts we have are, every time Nash had a company placed on his back as the man, the company’s numbers took a hit.
> 
> Claiming Nash a draw would be akin to claiming one of those Uso characters or the Bucks as draws, because they stood next to Roman Reigns or Kenny Omega.


Claiming the Bucks aren't a draw is insane. Not being the biggest draw in the company doesn't mean you can't be a draw. Scottie Pippen wasn't Jordan, that doesn't mean he wasn't an insanely valuable member of the Bulls.


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

RapShepard said:


> Claiming the Bucks aren't a draw is insane. Not being the biggest draw in the company doesn't mean you can't be a draw. Scottie Pippen wasn't Jordan, that doesn't mean he wasn't an insanely valuable member of the Bulls.


Well, now we’re getting into a different discussion entirely, and on this premise, I would agree. Nash as a key figure, if not THE guy, absolutely helps a show. 

I’m talking in the same light as Nash. If Ospreay is your top dog, then the numbers don’t prove him a big draw. If Nash is your top dog, then the numbers don’t prove him a draw.

Get where I’m coming from now?


----------



## RapShepard (Jun 20, 2014)

bdon said:


> Well, now we’re getting into a different discussion entirely, and on this premise, I would agree. Nash as a key figure, if not THE guy, absolutely helps a show.
> 
> I’m talking in the same light as Nash. If Ospreay is your top dog, then the numbers don’t prove him a big draw. If Nash is your top dog, then the numbers don’t prove him a draw.
> 
> Get where I’m coming from now?


But I think even with neither being somebody you can thrive with for your national show, Nash has a point on merch. When he's still making like 6 figures a year on nWo merch, that's what being apart of something that's over is.


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

RapShepard said:


> But I think even with neither being somebody you can thrive with for your national show, Nash has a point on merch. When he's still making like 6 figures a year on nWo merch, that's what being apart of something that's over is.


I don’t disagree on his point. Will is just unlucky that he hasn’t received the benefit of sharing a faction with Hogan. Lol

I don’t disagree with the premise. The only thing that should matter to these guys is drawing money and popping a big house. It is just disingenuous to hear that coming from the guy everyone knows to be the worst drawing champion in WWE history, and a guy who so famously killed WCW’s momentum that there are rumors and stories that he was sent by McMahon as a double agent to kill it from the inside. Lol


----------



## RapShepard (Jun 20, 2014)

bdon said:


> I don’t disagree on his point. Will is just unlucky that he hasn’t received the benefit of sharing a faction with Hogan. Lol
> 
> I don’t disagree with the premise. The only thing that should matter to these guys is drawing money and popping a big house. It is just disingenuous to hear that coming from the guy everyone knows to be the worst drawing champion in WWE history, and a guy who so famously killed WCW’s momentum that there are rumors and stories that he was sent by McMahon as a double agent to kill it from the inside. Lol


But at the same time couldn't it be argued that Nash was unlucky enough to have to be the guy pegged to run the show with little experience in the business, not long after Hogan, and during the post steroid trial era. 

Now I'm with you on the "hey a big time draw is going to big time draw". But Bret, Nash, and HBK did get handled a tough per of shoes to fill lol.


----------



## doctordoom212 (Jul 24, 2018)

otbr87 said:


> Ospreay isn't big on charisma but he has more than Nash. His recent words to Kenny Olivier is more entertaining than anything Diesel has done.
> 
> I can't name 1 Kevin Nash match better than 2 stars or even remember anything he was in.


Undertaker vs Diesel = Wrestlemania 12
Diesel vs Bret Trilogy = KOTR 94, Rumble 95 & Survivor Series 95
Diesel vs HBK = Wrestlemania 11, IYH: Good Friends, Better Enemies
Diesel vs Razor = Summerslam 94
Diesel vs Owen Hart = IYH: Seasons Beatings

All of these were above 2 stars


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

RapShepard said:


> But at the same time couldn't it be argued that Nash was unlucky enough to have to be the guy pegged to run the show with little experience in the business, not long after Hogan, and during the post steroid trial era.
> 
> Now I'm with you on the "hey a big time draw is going to big time draw". But Bret, Nash, and HBK did get handled a tough per of shoes to fill lol.


Yeah. But now we’re making excuses. Someone can claim Roman Reigns a bigger draw than Sammartino or Hogan, but he got dealt a tough hand coming on the heels of Cena or trying to draw money after the business has been exposed as fake. Lol


----------



## RapShepard (Jun 20, 2014)

bdon said:


> Yeah. But now we’re making excuses. Someone can claim Roman Reigns a bigger draw than Sammartino or Hogan, but he got dealt a tough hand coming on the heels of Cena or trying to draw money after the business has been exposed as fake. Lol


But ultimately who would you say was a bigger draw Kev or Will


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

RapShepard said:


> But ultimately who would you say was a bigger draw Kev or Will


It’s obviously Kev. Disco Inferno can likely claim to have sold more shirts than Ospreay, too. Floyd Mayweather makes more money than Marciano, but it doesn’t mean HE is a bigger draw.


----------



## RapShepard (Jun 20, 2014)

bdon said:


> It’s obviously Kev. Disco Inferno can likely claim to have sold more shirts than Ospreay, too. Floyd Mayweather makes more money than Marciano, but it doesn’t mean HE is a bigger draw.


Prime Nash vs Will right now do you honestly think a show led by Will would sell out before a show led by Nash?


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

RapShepard said:


> Prime Nash vs Will right now do you honestly think a show led by Will would sell out before a show led by Nash?


Is Nash in this era?


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

Nash, given the time when he worked and who he was closely associated with, is obviously a greater draw than Ospreay who has been stuck in NJPW hell and been victim of buying into Meltzer’s hype, which is what he is working with Kenny on correcting.

But my point, as I have already stated, is that it is disingenuous for the most widely accepted “worst drawing champion in WWE history” to be walking around trying to shit on anyone’s ability to “draw”, ya know?


----------



## Lurker V2.0 (Feb 2, 2021)

bdon said:


> Again, Nash knows something about not selling merch and moving the needle in the wrong direction. He speaks from experience.


Outsiders and nWo merch 📈
Diesel merch 📉


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

I mean, how much of a draw would Will Ospreay be if he got to stand next to Roman Reigns or Brock Lesnar on a weekly basis?


----------



## BIIIG Nige (5 mo ago)

bdon said:


> I mean, how much of a draw would Will Ospreay be if he got to stand next to Roman Reigns or Brock Lesnar on a weekly basis?


Different product. You're comparing Apples vs Oranges.


----------



## Dr. Middy (Jan 21, 2015)

The Legit Lioness said:


> *Oh my God, go apply for a job at the Observer with this desperate spin attempt. You avoided mentioning 2022, which I'm clearly talking about, for obvious reasons.
> View attachment 131631
> 
> 
> ...


You just said NJPW has decreased by 50% the last two years, which are the points that I was talking about because you can get numbers for total annual attendance for 2020 and 2021. You NEVER clearly said 2022 anywhere, in the first post in the thread you mentioned Ospreay causing ratings to drop over the last two years so I didn't talk about 2022. Now all of a sudden we're using that year, which the only way I could get current total attendance for is if I went and added show by show myself.

Also, you posted a cagematch event page from an event in 2021, but the tweet from the live event says it happened literally a couple weeks ago.

I spun nothing, I'm not sure why you think I would, but to me you're spinning everything because you're completely unable to admit you're wrong on this one for some reason. It happens dude, I've admit I'm wrong on shit before.


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

Dr. Middy said:


> You just said NJPW has decreased by 50% the last two years, which are the points that I was talking about because you can get numbers for total annual attendance for 2020 and 2021. You NEVER clearly said 2022 anywhere, in the first post in the thread you mentioned Ospreay causing ratings to drop over the last two years so I didn't talk about 2022. Now all of a sudden we're using that year, which the only way I could get current total attendance for is if I went and added show by show myself.
> 
> Also, you posted a cagematch event page from an event in 2021, but the tweet from the live event says it happened literally a couple weeks ago.
> 
> I spun nothing, you're spinning everything because you're completely unable to admit you're wrong on this one. It happens dude, I've admit I'm wrong on shit before.


Par for the course with him.


----------



## RapShepard (Jun 20, 2014)

bdon said:


> Is Nash in this era?






bdon said:


> Nash, given the time when he worked and who he was closely associated with, is obviously a greater draw than Ospreay who has been stuck in NJPW hell and been victim of buying into Meltzer’s hype, which is what he is working with Kenny on correcting.
> 
> But my point, as I have already stated, is that it is disingenuous for the most widely accepted “worst drawing champion in WWE history” to be walking around trying to shit on anyone’s ability to “draw”, ya know?


It's not disingenuous at all. Nash can be a shit draw compared to the biggest draws, that doesn't mean he isn't a draw relative to other folk though. Fact is Nash is a bigger draw than most folk in wrestling history.


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

RapShepard said:


> It's not disingenuous at all. Nash can be a shit draw compared to the biggest draws, that doesn't mean he isn't a draw relative to other folk though. Fact is Nash is a bigger draw than most folk in wrestling history.


And by the same token, Disco Inferno was actually increasing ratings for a stretch during the height of that era. That doesn’t make Disco a draw, though.

XPac Heat exists, yet he was absolutely seen and watched by more weekly viewers than most folk in wrestling history. 🤷🏼‍♂️


----------



## CM Buck (Sep 2, 2012)

The Legit Lioness said:


> *He had a free shot at Kenny Omega in an actual real life personal rivalry with carte blanche and went straight to 5 Star matches. Nah.*


Don't be narrow minded bro. Took Roman years and a heel turn to be a decent promo and character


----------



## RapShepard (Jun 20, 2014)

bdon said:


> And by the same token, Disco Inferno was actually increasing ratings for a stretch during the height of that era.
> 
> That doesn’t make Disco a draw, though.


You're being disingenuous here Disco did better ratings and such on the basis of 90s ratings were by and large higher. Only a asshole would say a Disco or Val Venus is a bigger draw than a Omega or Will.

But Nash not being a draw to the level of Hogan or Flair doesn't mean he's not a draw. You can be an all time great basketball player and still not be worthy of being mentioned in the same breath as Jordan.


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

RapShepard said:


> You're being disingenuous here Disco did better ratings and such on the basis of 90s ratings were by and large higher. Only a asshole would say a Disco or Val Venus is a bigger draw than a Omega or Will.
> 
> But Nash not being a draw to the level of Hogan or Flair doesn't mean he's not a draw. You can be an all time great basketball player and still not be worthy of being mentioned in the same breath as Jordan.


Then why did numbers always drop when Nash was the guy at top? Not just drop, but worst of all-time in the case of Diesel. I did not delve too deeply into his WCW numbers, but I know his being on top pretty much was the beginning of the end just on memory alone.

And I mentioned Disco, because as TV champ, his segments showed an increase for a while.


----------



## RapShepard (Jun 20, 2014)

bdon said:


> Then why did numbers always drop when Nash was the guy at top?
> 
> And I mentioned Disco, because as TV champ, his segments showed an increase for a while.


This isn't the point you think it is, multiple things can be true at once

Nash can be a good draw, while simultaneously not being the best draw ever. 

Here's how you'll understand it

Dynamites peak ratings came under Jericho as champion, Omega not surpassing those numbers doesn't mean he's not a draw. AEW lead by Omega still wasn't a weekly guarantee of a million viewers, but that didn't mean he wasn't a draw and star within context of the current times


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

RapShepard said:


> This isn't the point you think it is, multiple things can be true at once
> 
> Nash can be a good draw, while simultaneously not being the best draw ever.
> 
> ...


Dynamite under Omega didn’t drop ratings. They increased. Outside of the weeks they were pre-empted, I’d venture to say the show had its highest average under his reign or certainly on par for the highest.

Nash couldn’t even do that. When Nash was given the spotlight, the show crumbled. Two different promotions, 4-5 years apart. Nash is a good guy, but he is not THE guy. If he were, he’d be able to definitively show a time where his prominence didn’t lead to a fall in ratings and PPV buys.

The fact is, Will has shown he wasn’t ready to be the top dog in NJPW. Nash proved he was never ready to be top dog in either National company. Ospreay has seen a decline _relative _to NJPW’s previous runs. Nash saw a decline _relative_ to WWF/WCW’s previous runs.

Until we see Ospreay playing a supporting actor role next to a company’s top dog, then we can’t claim Nash the Victor based on his being on the shows when they done great ratings next to a Mount Rushmore draw.


----------



## HugoCortez (Mar 7, 2019)

Ghost Lantern said:


> But Meltzer would argue Hogan did his best work in Japan, which is my whole point. Because he tended to work harder there.



To be fair, Hogan drew and got crowds invested whether it was in AWA, WWF, WCW or NJPW


----------



## 5 Star Giulia ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ (Apr 21, 2014)

Dr. Middy said:


> You just said NJPW has decreased by 50% the last two years, which are the points that I was talking about because you can get numbers for total annual attendance for 2020 and 2021. You NEVER clearly said 2022 anywhere, in the first post in the thread you mentioned Ospreay causing ratings to drop over the last two years so I didn't talk about 2022. Now all of a sudden we're using that year, which the only way I could get current total attendance for is if I went and added show by show myself.
> 
> Also, you posted a cagematch event page from an event in 2021, but the tweet from the live event says it happened literally a couple weeks ago.
> 
> I spun nothing, I'm not sure why you think I would, but to me you're spinning everything because you're completely unable to admit you're wrong on this one for some reason. It happens dude, I've admit I'm wrong on shit before.


*Can you count? 2020+2=2022. This isn't calculus. I even went out of my way to highlight the attendance of the 2021 5 Star GP to make it easy for you to understand that they had 700 attendees last year and hit 1500+ a couple of weeks ago for the 2022 5 Star GP. In case I have to explain this too, it's a one (1) year difference. I'm not wrong about anything; you're just struggling to comprehend simple facts.*


----------



## 3venflow (Feb 3, 2019)

Nash is kinda lucky Bischoff visited Japan and came up with the nWo idea or his bank balance may be a fraction as big now.

It's a pointless argument anyway. Some people prioritise money, some prioritise their craft. It is possible to combine the two of course (ie. Bret Hart). There's nothing wrong with being money-driven like Nash and nothing wrong with being quality-driven like Ospreay, who has turned down WWE's advances in the past and isn't a fan of their direction.

Ospreay can make money though if he ever chooses to move to America. He is a marketable guy. He also will make a very good salary in New Japan, they don't pay peanuts over there. Okada makes probably $2.5m per year so Will could feasibly be on $1m-plus. The United Empire has probably started to move some merch too.


----------



## 5 Star Giulia ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ (Apr 21, 2014)

Firefromthegods said:


> Don't be narrow minded bro. Took Roman years and a heel turn to be a decent promo and character


*Will has been a heel for years by default and wrestling for over a decade. He has no excuse. Roman was FORCED to be a face and follow corny scripts. Do you really think he WANTED to say suffering succotash on live TV? Roman himself literally said on WWE Evil that he had to demand to take creative control of his character over to stop the bleeding. This heel run could have easily happened 5 years prior.*


----------



## RapShepard (Jun 20, 2014)

bdon said:


> Dynamite under Omega didn’t drop ratings. They increased. Outside of the weeks they were pre-empted, I’d venture to say the show had its highest average under his reign or certainly on par for the highest.
> 
> Nash couldn’t even do that. When Nash was given the spotlight, the show crumbled. Two different promotions, 4-5 years apart. Nash is a good guy, but he is not THE guy. If he were, he’d be able to definitively show a time where his prominence didn’t lead to a fall in ratings and PPV buys.
> 
> ...


No we can call Nash the victor until Ospreay proves otherwise. Nash can't still put numbers on the board, his accomplishments are set. Until Ospreay shows he can surpass then Nash can dunk on him all he pleases. 

Especially considering Nash had did way fucking more in his career at the same point than Ospreay had. 10 years in Will is just now solidifying himself as a top guy. 10 years into Nash's career he had already main evented a Mania and helped lift up WCW with the nWo.


----------



## CM Buck (Sep 2, 2012)

The Legit Lioness said:


> *Will has been a heel for years by default and wrestling for over a decade. He has no excuse. Roman was FORCED to be a face and follow corny scripts. Do you really think he WANTED to say suffering succotash on live TV? Roman himself literally said on WWE Evil that he had to demand to take creative control of his character over to stop the bleeding. This heel run could have easily happened 5 years prior.*


You've missed some good Ospreay promos then. They're like his wrestling. If he is in multi man matches or feuds with no meat like this Kenny back and forth his garbage. If he is facing an okada and someone he has history with he holds his own.

It's not Ospreays fault Kenny wants to build their feud on who can get Dave more flustered


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

RapShepard said:


> No we can call Nash the victor until Ospreay proves otherwise. Nash can't still put numbers on the board, his accomplishments are set. Until Ospreay shows he can surpass then Nash can dunk on him all he pleases.
> 
> Especially considering Nash had did way fucking more in his career at the same point than Ospreay had. 10 years in Will is just now solidifying himself as a top guy. 10 years into Nash's career he had already main evented a Mania and helped lift up WCW with the nWo.


So, you’re back to using him being the worst draw in the history of WWF as proof he is a draw.

Ok bro. Lmao


----------



## RapShepard (Jun 20, 2014)

bdon said:


> So, you’re back to using him being the worst draw in the history of WWF as proof he is a draw.
> 
> Ok bro. Lmao


Are you slow? Because the argument you're trying to make is really remedial. 

Nash can be on the lower end of draws on the WWF/WCW top guy scale, and still be a bigger draw than most top guys in wrestling. 

Scale matters, Nash could be a decline on drawing ability in the WWF. But at the same time still be drawing considerably more than say a Shane Douglas who's growing ECW.


----------



## Dr. Middy (Jan 21, 2015)

The Legit Lioness said:


> *Can you count? 2020+2=2022. This isn't calculus. I even went out of my way to highlight the attendance of the 2021 5 Star GP to make it easy for you to understand that they had 700 attendees last year and hit 1500+ a couple of weeks ago for the 2022 5 Star GP. In case I have to explain this too, it's a one (1) year difference. I'm not wrong about anything; you're just struggling to comprehend simple facts.*


Like I said, you said the last two years so I assumed 2020 and 2021, not 2022 because that's the current year. If you wanted to talk about 2021 to 2022 that is a different argument, or If you want to argue the success Stardom has had this year that's fine too. 

My main argument was that you said NJPW's attendance drop the last two years were due to Ospreay's push, which made no sense to me because this was all during the pandemic when attendances dropped due to protocol, which apparently is just a bad excuse. You'll have to translate it but here's a good source showing that it wasn't just NJPW, the majority of wrestling attendance is down and taking it's time coming back to pre-Covid levels, with the exception of Stardom and Tokyo Joshi Pro. Women's wrestling in Japan is kinda having a boom led by Stardom (thanks to their consistency in their shows), so they are the lone thing to buck this trend. 

In Stardom's case I can't see their product single handily being able to complete buck the Covid trend, given once Bushi Road bought them, they subsequently started to air their shows and get spots on some of Japan's bigger TV networks like Nippon TV and Tokyo MX. However, they did take the opportunity that was given and ran with it, and are continuing to flourish. But that level of exposure does not happen without Bushiroad purchasing them in 2019. This was written about that below:



> Last night, it was announced that New Japan Pro Wrestling parent company Bushiroad purchased Stardom, the all-women Japanese promotion. Founded in 2010, the promotion has featured names like Io Shirai, Toni Storm, Bea Priestley, Hana Kimura, Kagetsu and Mayu Iwatani
> 
> Bushiroad's Takaaki Kitani and Stardom's Rossy Ogawa reportedly met back in April, but a deal between the two sides wasn't completed until August. There was a joint press conference with Stardom talent involved following the news.
> 
> ...











More On Bushiroad Purchasing Stardom, WWE Trying To Buy The Promotion, Stardom - NJPW


Last night, it was announced that New Japan Pro Wrestling parent company Bushiroad purchased Stardom, the all-women Japanese promotion. Founded in 2010, the promotion has…




www.wrestlinginc.com





But regarding that source I mentioned, see below. 









コロナ以後の国内プロレス団体の動員回復率について - プロレス統計


先日、新日本プロレスのG1 CLIMAXが終了しました。試合についてはさておき少し目を引いたのは優勝者オカダ選手が試合後のコメントで大会の動員について言及したこと*1。以前から会場の入りに関しては目標を掲げることが多い選手でしたが、G1優勝の場でもそういうことを述べるほどの危機感を持っているという表明にも見えるわけです。 さらに言うとその後出てきた新日本・大張社長のコメントでもシリーズ全体の動員についての目標設定について語るとともに、目標の一つとして「来場習慣を取り戻す」ことがあったと明かしています*2。...




www.pwanalysis.com





They also tie it into how baseball attendance has also been down and is taking time to increase as well, as they are still much lower than Pre-Covid levels. So this isn't just an isolated NJPW problem.

The chart below shows the the clear drop pre-Covid and currently.










(Top is NJPW, followed by Stardom, Dragon Gate, NOAH, All Japan, DDT, and then Tokyo Joshi Pro).

Not sure how else I can explain what I'm trying to here.


----------



## ByOrderOfThePB (Jul 31, 2019)

Also let’s talk about how the principle these indy-flippies carry is kinda wack.. they talk a big game about how wrestling hurts and passion for the business, sacrifice, etc.. but have no problem mocking a colleague’s injury that put him out of commission for a year


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

RapShepard said:


> Are you slow? Because the argument you're trying to make is really remedial.
> 
> Nash can be on the lower end of draws on the WWF/WCW top guy scale, and still be a bigger draw than most top guys in wrestling.
> 
> Scale matters, Nash could be a decline on drawing ability in the WWF. But at the same time still be drawing considerably more than say a Shane Douglas who's growing ECW.


But then you are speaking in relative terms again, man. That Jinder Mahal guy you always mention is a likely bigger draw than anyone outside of the WWE. XPac is now synonymous with Go Away Heat, yet he’s a bigger draw than 95% of wrestlers in history based on the numbers the WWE did when he was there.

You’re ignoring the fact I have said this is all relative again and again.


----------



## RapShepard (Jun 20, 2014)

bdon said:


> But then you are speaking in relative terms again, man. That Jinder Mahal guy you always mention is a likely bigger draw than anyone outside of the WWE. XPac is now synonymous with Go Away Heat, yet he’s a bigger draw than 95% of wrestlers in history based on the numbers the WWE did when he was there.
> 
> You’re ignoring the fact I have said this is all relative again and again.


I'm not ignoring the relative factor. I'm just saying despite Nash not being at the tippy top, realistically he's earned the right to talk some shit. 

I'm just saying if the last 30 years of wrestling was basketball let's say Kevin Nash is a Dirk Nowitzki or Kevin Garnett. Nobody sane is saying Dirk or KG is a top 5 player in that time period or even the best Power Forward in that time frame. But they damn sure are better than a large chunk of folk that came along in that time period.


----------



## HugoCortez (Mar 7, 2019)

The Legit Lioness said:


> *STARDOM went from 6th in Japan to #2 since Covid, which is the first time for a women's company being that successful in Japan, and they are on pace to pass New Japan next year. Save the bullshit excuses.*


For what is worth, one has to take this into context. Stardom went from not having a weekly TV slot to having two, plus the crossover plug ins they get from NJPW videos. They became number 2 because the only promotion that has that is...well the number 1 promotion that happens to be part of the same group that bought stardom. Meanwhile, NJPW went from doing good numbers at the 10k sized venues and doing well at the dome shows to not doing so good. It doesn't mean they are necessarily going to get surpassed by stardom next year in yearly average gates. Ospreay certainly isn't helping but it's not as if he caused the drop in half of their business by himself.


Plus, as good as stardom is doing right now, they aren't doing proper top promotion numbers yet. To put context, GAEA Japan had 16 shows with gates of 4000 or over between 1996 and 2002 with 9 of them being of 6000 or over and 2 being 7000 or over. That was during the business downturn in the late 1990s-early 2000s. Zenjo/AJW during its 3 boom periods was doing a level of business that I honestly would be impressed if a women's promotion ever reaches that level

Pro wrestling overall isn't as popular over there as it was back in the 1950s to 1990s (pretty much like in the US, to be honest)


----------



## TheDraw (Jun 27, 2019)

I love Nash so much. Him and Cornette are some of the best wrestling minds in the world and always tell it like it is. It's no surpise that I always end up agreeing with them because I have the same mindset of no bullshit. If it's crap it's crap.

The problem is wrestling fans just can't handle the truth and are too emotionally invested in the wrestlers and companies to accept criticism even when it's 100% right. These are guys who where in the business when the business was really something to talk about yet they are shitted on by many, even though people know they're right and just telling the truth in they're own way It's like a father talking down to his son....most fans are just the rebelious, niave kids who won't find out how shit things are until the business gets worse and then they look at the current era we have now as the good times. No it's crap.

Not only that, but people wanna feel like they belong in a group so we have tons of fans who will willingly shut out honest opinions and the truth in order to live in their little fake bubble world where the guy they are a fan of isas good as they see them.



As for Will. He's decent...but he's another guy who's cieling isn't anything other than (5 star match collector). What is he gonna give me that we haven't seen already in Omega? It's old and boring. As boring is Punk is currently, the Mic is what draws. Guys like MJF are what brings casuals like me to watch AEW not these boring flippy dudes who I can watch in any indy.

Japan is irrelevant in the states. You remove all the glitter, robes, and fancy music Will wouldn't stick out in a crowd walking down the street and he doesn't have the mic skills to make up for it BOTTOM LINE. MJF's mic skills alone carry him as a character and is potentially gonna get him big bucks in the WWE someday. Nobody is lining up to sign Will O'srpreay. He was afraid to come to the states for years in fear of being exposed in front of an American Audience.

Internet fans don't understand this which is why 99.9 percent of you would never make it as wrestlers or be cool enough to hang out with the NWO.


----------



## DUSTY 74 (Aug 11, 2021)

DUSTY 74 said:


> So Ospreys comparison aside lets just take a deep dive into Kevin specifically for a moment just to gain a better overall historical prospective from that timeline in regards to his contributions to the Buisness including actual direct quotes / and statistical information
> 
> Critics inaccurately denounce Diesel's 358-day reign as WWF champion as the lowest-drawing in company history. This crude analysis ignores a number of contributing factors to the slump, & negates to consider some of the major success stories from the run. As the company figurehead during the mid 90's wrestling recession, Diesel was required to perform under the weight of those failures every single night. Despite this, when the cameras were rolling, Kevin Nash portrayed a charismatic & dynamic giant, mowing down a diverse mix of genuine superstars & lumbering buffoons. He also developed a reputation as a strong big match performer, turning in his half of some fabulous matches on PPV as defending champion, & developed a reputation as one of the more reliable 7-footers to ever grace the squared circle. Above all else, despite his relative inexperience, he nobly rose to the psychological grinds & pressures of being World champion that the likes of Eddie Guerrero, Brock Lesnar, & Shawn Michaels would all crumble under, & never received fair credit for managing his year on top with a dignified aplomb rarely achieved from many of his contemporaries.
> 
> ...


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

RapShepard said:


> I'm not ignoring the relative factor. I'm just saying despite Nash not being at the tippy top, realistically he's earned the right to talk some shit.
> 
> I'm just saying if the last 30 years of wrestling was basketball let's say Kevin Nash is a Dirk Nowitzki or Kevin Garnett. Nobody sane is saying Dirk or KG is a top 5 player in that time period or even the best Power Forward in that time frame. But they damn sure are better than a large chunk of folk that came along in that time period.


Those guys eventually won titles as The Man. Kevin Nash never drew as The Man. Every time he was entrusted with the franchise, they missed playoffs.

A much better comparison would be Kevin Nash and Kevin Love. Trusted to be The Man in Minnesota and Cleveland after Bron bounced again. Immediate dip into the lottery with no playoffs in sight.

But next to The Man, he did win a title.


----------



## RapShepard (Jun 20, 2014)

bdon said:


> Those guys eventually won titles as The Man. Kevin Nash never drew as The Man. Every time he was entrusted with the franchise, they missed playoffs.
> 
> A much better comparison would be Kevin Nash and Kevin Love. Trusted to be The Man in Minnesota and Cleveland after Bron bounced again. Immediate dip into the lottery with no playoffs in sight.
> 
> But next to The Man, he did win a title.


No Nash won his titles as well and at worst he was a guy to get you to the conference finals type guy. Don't forget Paul Pierce won Finals MVP and not KG


----------



## TheDraw (Jun 27, 2019)

BrrrGoesWooo! said:


> Damn.. 3 moves and somehow still ended up hobbled like this before getting surgery.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Knash is a true fucking heel and this is why O'spreay will never be anything in the states.

Knash has fans so bitter that they always gotta get personal when it comes to him. Exactly as I said in my other post....too emotionally invested. When has it ever been accepted to bad mouth a man's injuries? Why we gotta talk about the mans livelihood like that? It's because Knash is in your head.

Check out some of Knash's old WCW promo's bashing the fans in the audience. Even I wanted to strangle him from some of the stuff he was saying. He's doing that exact same thing to you right now and making Will relevant in the process.


----------



## GDGamer (Dec 1, 2020)

Nash tanked in the WWF as the main guy in the mid 90s. I really think he should shut his mouth on topics like this.


----------



## Blade Runner (Jan 24, 2012)

RapShepard said:


> No we can call Nash the victor until Ospreay proves otherwise. Nash can't still put numbers on the board, his accomplishments are set. Until Ospreay shows he can surpass then Nash can dunk on him all he pleases.
> 
> Especially considering Nash had did way fucking more in his career at the same point than Ospreay had. 10 years in Will is just now solidifying himself as a top guy. 10 years into Nash's career he had already main evented a Mania and helped lift up WCW with the nWo.


When did Nash main event a Wrestlemania ?


----------



## Shaz Cena (9 mo ago)

DUSTY 74 said:


> Snip


Not sure how many years it took you to write this. But thanks for sharing this post gives some great insight to history of Nash the cash.


----------



## TheDraw (Jun 27, 2019)

Simple answer to all of this.

A 1000 fan audience with 100 ICW fans will be busy studying the moves and workrate and moves during a wreestling match at a show. The other 900 fans are casuals and soccer moms with five kids who will be busy studying Romans backside and will come back for more. You do the math.

IWC fans need to wake up and realize that they don't matter.


----------



## 5 Star Giulia ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ (Apr 21, 2014)

HugoCortez said:


> For what is worth, one has to take this into context. Stardom went from not having a weekly TV slot to having two, plus the crossover plug ins they get from NJPW videos. They became number 2 because the only promotion that has that is...well the number 1 promotion that happens to be part of the same group that bought stardom. Meanwhile, NJPW went from doing good numbers at the 10k sized venues and doing well at the dome shows to not doing so good. It doesn't mean they are necessarily going to get surpassed by stardom next year in yearly average gates. Ospreay certainly isn't helping but it's not as if he caused the drop in half of their business by himself.
> 
> 
> Plus, as good as stardom is doing right now, they aren't doing proper top promotion numbers yet. To put context, GAEA Japan had 16 shows with gates of 4000 or over between 1996 and 2002 with 9 of them being of 6000 or over and 2 being 7000 or over. That was during the business downturn in the late 1990s-early 2000s. Zenjo/AJW during its 3 boom periods was doing a level of business that I honestly would be impressed if a women's promotion ever reaches that level
> ...


*I think the disconnect comes because people think I'm saying Will Ospreay ran off the audience in 2020, when I'm saying he's not bringing any of those fans back. There's a clear distinction there.

As for overall attendance in comparison to percentages, I think STARDOM needs to get out of their comfort zone when it comes to booking venues, because they're hitting capacity on every show at the small gymnasiums. They can definitely fill up those New Japan arenas with their stacked cards. I'm not going to sit here and say a house show featuring a Hanan vs. Waka main event will sell out the Tokyo Dome, but when you look at these five star GP cards, you know damn well several of the last shows would pack a big house.*


----------



## TheDraw (Jun 27, 2019)

O'sprea wouldn't even be on the card in those days so


ByOrderOfThePB said:


> Also let’s talk about how the principle these indy-flippies carry is kinda wack.. they talk a big game about how wrestling hurts and passion for the business, sacrifice, etc.. but have no problem mocking a colleague’s injury that put him out of commission for a year


Good point. Knash gets treated horrible compared to most wrestlers for some reason.


----------



## toxicnacho (5 mo ago)

I enjoy both for totally different reasons but the fact remains that no two grown men should be arguing over Twitter. 

First post by the way. Long time lurker/reader.

Hi everyone 👍


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

RapShepard said:


> No Nash won his titles as well and at worst he was a guy to get you to the conference finals type guy. Don't forget Paul Pierce won Finals MVP and not KG


But Nash was an immediate drop in ratings and PPV buys. At no point did his rise to being The Man lead to an increase in numbers. Lol


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

toxicnacho said:


> I enjoy both for totally different reasons but the fact remains that no two grown men should be arguing over Twitter.
> 
> First post by the way. Long time lurker/reader.
> 
> Hi everyone 👍


So, basically no updates…


----------



## Kishido (Aug 12, 2014)

Funny is that Nash with a torn quad is still more legit


----------



## TKO Wrestling (Jun 26, 2018)

RapShepard said:


> No we can call Nash the victor until Ospreay proves otherwise. Nash can't still put numbers on the board, his accomplishments are set. Until Ospreay shows he can surpass then Nash can dunk on him all he pleases.
> 
> Especially considering Nash had did way fucking more in his career at the same point than Ospreay had. 10 years in Will is just now solidifying himself as a top guy. 10 years into Nash's career he had already main evented a Mania and helped lift up WCW with the nWo.


Perhaps but you can also look at it like Nash wasn't even in the business at age 29 so Will has many years ahead. But the odds of another Hulk Hogan level wrestler emerging over the next 10 years for Will to cling to in order to be able to claim he drew money are slim. 

But make no mistake Nash never drew a dime without Hogan or Goldberg involved.


----------



## RapShepard (Jun 20, 2014)

bdon said:


> But Nash was an immediate drop in ratings and PPV buys. At no point did his rise to being The Man lead to an increase in numbers. Lol


Again you're being remedial. If Jordan leaves the Bulls and they go from winning the title with Jordan to being in the ECF with Pippen. Does that mean Blake Bumfuck is better than Pippen just because he took a team to the playoffs that missed it the year before even though he lost in the First round? Again use that brain


----------



## mazzah20 (Oct 10, 2019)

Will Ospreay would never sell-out Madison Square Gardens in front of 29,000 people.


----------



## The XL 2 (Sep 13, 2016)

Guess everyone bringing up Diesel missed Nash's 96-99 WCW run. Diesel was a shitty McMahon character that Nash was forced to play. Guess what? If Vince put Rock and Austin on top when they were Rocky Maivia and The Ringmaster, they wouldn't have drawn shit either. Ospreay is a dime a dozen modern worker anyway. What makes him better than peak Paul London?



TKO Wrestling said:


> Perhaps but you can also look at it like Nash wasn't even in the business at age 29 so Will has many years ahead. But the odds of another Hulk Hogan level wrestler emerging over the next 10 years for Will to cling to in order to be able to claim he drew money are slim.
> 
> But make no mistake Nash never drew a dime without Hogan or Goldberg involved.


The Wolfpac was one of the hottest acts in wrestling during the hottest period in pro wrestling history and Nash was its leader. You have no idea what you're talking about.

Comparing a nobody like Ospreay to Kevin Nash is ridiculous. He needs to pass guys like Spike Dudley, Paul London, Jimmy Wang Yang and Billy Kidman before we can talk about anything else.


----------



## TKO Wrestling (Jun 26, 2018)

mazzah20 said:


> Will Ospreay would never sell-out Madison Square Gardens in front of 29,000 people.


In fairness no one in the history of the business has been able to do that.


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

RapShepard said:


> Again you're being remedial. If Jordan leaves the Bulls and they go from winning the title with Jordan to being in the ECF with Pippen. Does that mean Blake Bumfuck is better than Pippen just because he took a team to the playoffs that missed it the year before even though he lost in the First round? Again use that brain


By your definition of things, Nash would have had to make the WWF and WCW draw less than NJPW. Now who is being remedial.

Nash being the worst drawing champion in WWF history is the equivalent to the 76ers tanking for years, hoping to get the #1 pick. He is the WORST champion in that company’s history. It stands to reason that the company had a fucking floor limit that would not turn off the television no matter what.

So, if that makes a draw, then sure, Nash is a draw. Lol


----------



## RapShepard (Jun 20, 2014)

TKO Wrestling said:


> Perhaps but you can also look at it like Nash wasn't even in the business at age 29 so Will has many years ahead. But the odds of another Hulk Hogan level wrestler emerging over the next 10 years for Will to cling to in order to be able to claim he drew money are slim.
> 
> But make no mistake Nash never drew a dime without Hogan or Goldberg involved.


What Will may do is irrelevant to what he's actually done compared to Nash at this point in their careers. 

Maybe in the next few years Will is the main catalyst for uniting Japanese, UK, and US wrestling and is wrestling in packed stadiums with millions watching live at home.

But as of now he's a fairly new main event type guy that's not on Nash's level


bdon said:


> By your definition of things, Nash would have had to make the WWF and WCW draw less than NJPW. Now who is being remedial.
> 
> Nash being the worst drawing champion in WWF history is the equivalent to the 76ers tanking for years, hoping to get the #1 pick. He is the WORST champion in that company’s history. It stands to reason that the company had a fucking floor limit that would not turn off the television no matter what.
> 
> So, if that makes a draw, then sure, Nash is a draw. Lol


2 things can be true

Nash didn't draw great by WWF WCW high standards

Nash drew well by general wrestling standards. 

Don't be salty Nash is a bigger draw than Will and by extension Omega.


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

The XL 2 said:


> Guess everyone bringing up Diesel missed Nash's 96-99 WCW run. Diesel was a shitty McMahon character that Nash was forced to play. Guess what? If Vince put Rock and Austin on top when they were Rocky Maivia and The Ringmaster, they wouldn't have drawn shit either. Ospreay is a dime a dozen modern worker anyway. What makes him better than peak Paul London?
> 
> 
> The Wolfpac was one of the hottest acts in wrestling during the hottest period in pro wrestling history and Nash was its leader. You have no idea what you're talking about.
> ...


You’ve missed the part where we established that was Hogan and Sting drawing the house.


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

RapShepard said:


> What Will may do is irrelevant to what he's actually done compared to Nash at this point in their careers.
> 
> Maybe in the next few years Will is the main catalyst for uniting Japanese, UK, and US wrestling and is wrestling in packed stadiums with millions watching live at home.
> 
> ...


Then you are in agreement that Disco Inferno is by definition a bigger draw than Will as well, because he was also on those biggest drawing shows ever.

If we are discussing one’s ability to draw on, “Were they on the show during the height of each company’s history”, then Disco Inferno, Alex Wright, and XPac Heat are bigger draws than anyone on WWE television currently.


----------



## RapShepard (Jun 20, 2014)

bdon said:


> Then you are in agreement that Disco Inferno is by definition a bigger draw than Will as well, because he was also on those biggest drawing shows ever.


No you're being purposely silly because you don't want to admit that yes Nash wasn't Hogan, but he's indeed a bigger draw than most folk.


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

RapShepard said:


> No you're being purposely silly because you don't want to admit that yes Nash wasn't Hogan, but he's indeed a bigger draw than most folk.


Disco Inferno is a bigger draw than Roman. Confirmed. Thanks for the clarification.


----------



## RapShepard (Jun 20, 2014)

bdon said:


> Disco Inferno is a bigger draw than Roman. Confirmed. Thanks for the clarification.


Yes

HHH

Nash

Disco

Punk

Roman 

Cody 













Omega


----------



## The XL 2 (Sep 13, 2016)

bdon said:


> You’ve missed the part where we established that was Hogan and Sting drawing the house.


To say Kevin Nash didn't play a part in any of that is crazy talk. He was a fundamental part of the NWO. And WCW business was never hotter than in mid 98-early 99, and that was all Goldberg, Hogan, and Nash. Sting was done by that point.


----------



## TKO Wrestling (Jun 26, 2018)

The XL 2 said:


> To say Kevin Nash didn't play a part in any of that is crazy talk. He was a fundamental part of the NWO. And WCW business was never hotter than in mid 98-early 99, and that was all Goldberg, Hogan, and Nash. Sting was done by that point.


That was all Goldberg. They were getting killed in the ratings within 3 months of his loss to Nash.


----------



## The XL 2 (Sep 13, 2016)

TKO Wrestling said:


> That was all Goldberg. They were getting killed in the ratings within 3 months of his loss to Nash.


There was a lot more to WCW collapsing than just beating Goldberg. Nash was the 2nd biggest star in WCW during 1998/early 1999, yes he was even hotter than Hogan at that point. Goldberg and the Wolfpac kept WCW in the game another year longer than they should have.


----------



## Mustard (Sep 18, 2021)

The XL 2 said:


> There was a lot more to WCW collapsing than just beating Goldberg. Nash was the 2nd biggest star in WCW during 1998/early 1999, yes he was even hotter than Hogan at that point. Goldberg and the Wolfpac kept WCW in the game another year longer than they should have.


Give over. WCW in late 1997, post-Montreal, seemed to have every single card. Within months they had blown that totally, and were merely competitive for most of 1998. The problem was either massive incompetence from the WCW creative, or the terms of full creative control in some people's contracts.


----------



## Martyn (Feb 21, 2010)

The Legit Lioness said:


> *Will Ospreay is a prime example of wrestling ability not mattering when it comes to drawing a crowd. I love watching this guy wrestle, but New Japan attendance has dropped 50% with him as a top guy over the last two years. Characters and promos will always be more important than wrestling.*


*Dude, are you really trying to prove that Ospreay isn’t a draw by bringing in New Japan attendance figures from the last two years? Have you been living under a rock since 2020? 

Also, Ospreay is not bad on the mic and can cut a passionate promo.*


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

RapShepard said:


> Yes
> 
> HHH
> 
> ...


Whoopty fucking do. I don’t give a fuck. I don’t want Omega to ever be a fucking draw by your shitty definition.

_beep boop beep_

“Must….sports entertain…in…WWE”

Has nothing to do with Omega. This is about
THE WORST DRAWING CHAMPION IN WWF HISTORY having the nerve to try and talk shit about some fucking kid on the indie scene.

Show me where even Kevin Love had the nerve to talk shit about the local street legend. Kevin Nash bragging about being THE WORST DRAWING CHAMPION IN WWF HISTORY is fucking comical. Ospreay needs to go stand next to Roman Reigns for 2 years, so that maybe you’ll then confuse him for being a draw, eh Rap?

I never once argued in favor of Will being some draw. I only pointed out what a shit fucking draw Nash was, based on the fact that he WAS THE WORST DRAWING CHAMPION IN WWF HISTORY. You don’t judge players on their NBA careers for being better than your uncle who dominates the local YMCA league, do you?

It’s all relative. Relative to Ospreay’s position, he is an ok draw for where he works. Relative to Nash’s position, he WAS THE WORST DRAW IN COMPANY HOSTORY.


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

The XL 2 said:


> There was a lot more to WCW collapsing than just beating Goldberg. Nash was the 2nd biggest star in WCW during 1998/early 1999, yes he was even hotter than Hogan at that point. Goldberg and the Wolfpac kept WCW in the game another year longer than they should have.


Excuses and assholes.

We all have them, and we all think ours smell the best.


----------



## RapShepard (Jun 20, 2014)

bdon said:


> Whoopty fucking do. I don’t give a fuck. I don’t want Omega to ever be a fucking draw by your shitty definition.
> 
> _beep boop beep_
> 
> “Must….sports entertain…in…WWE”


You certainly been trying to prove that he's a draw over Punk so clearly you care that people see him as a draw.


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

RapShepard said:


> You certainly been trying to prove that he's a draw over Punk so clearly you care that people see him as a draw.


No, that is me laughing at the fans clamoring for the Elite to go away as if them going away would not severely cripple AEW. Within AEW, the show goes as Omega goes. Even the Titan Tower showdown between Punk and Mox couldn’t topple Omega.

Those fans acting like Punk doesn’t expose the business with every 4th wall breaking promo whilst simultaneously crying that the Elite expose the business. You know who I’m talking about too. You see them.


----------



## One Shed (Jan 7, 2014)

bdon said:


> Whoopty fucking do. I don’t give a fuck. I don’t want Omega to ever be a fucking draw by your shitty definition.
> 
> _beep boop beep_
> 
> ...


I dunno why you keep harping on his WWF champion run. He was the worst drawing WWF champ then he went to a different company where he helped draw a ton of money.

Are we going to argue that people are not draws because they did not draw well in every phase of their career?


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

One Shed said:


> I dunno why you keep harping on his WWF champion run. He was the worst drawing WWF champ then he went to a different company where he helped draw a ton of money.
> 
> Are we going to argue that people are not draws because they did not draw well in every phase of their career?


So, we are giving credit to him for drawing over Hogan and Sting now? Gotcha. I must have misread the part when Nash’s attempt to be top dog resulted in the company falling apart.

Try again, @One Shed


----------



## RapShepard (Jun 20, 2014)

bdon said:


> No, that is me laughing at the fans clamoring for the Elite to go away as if them going away would not severely cripple AEW. Within AEW, the show goes as Omega goes. Even the Titan Tower showdown between Punk and Mox couldn’t topple Omega.
> 
> Those fans acting like Punk doesn’t expose the business with every 4th wall breaking promo whilst simultaneously crying that the Elite expose the business. You know who I’m talking about too. You see them.


Oh you're not wrong on The Elite being needed in AEW.


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

His time at the top of WCW was so bad that the ratings fell so horribly that it was sold.


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

RapShepard said:


> Oh you're not wrong on The Elite being needed in AEW.


Yeah. That’s all I’m doing in shoving those ratings down their fucking throats. Punk has time in WWE, therefore he’s naturally more well known.

Within AEW, The Elite rule the roost. TK might be forced to close up shop if he lets The Elite go north. And I genuinely mean that. Punk can fuck back off to whatever miserable existence he was living, and the show will largely be unphased. But if The Elite go, _their fans_ “lose their smile.”


----------



## One Shed (Jan 7, 2014)

bdon said:


> So, we are giving credit to him for drawing over Hogan and Sting now? Gotcha. I must have misread the part when Nash’s attempt to be top dog resulted in the company falling apart.
> 
> Try again, @One Shed


Stop putting words in people's mouths. No one ever said he drew more than Hogan or Sting. But he was a major part of the original nWo and was part of what got the group over. To say otherwise is nonsense. Yes, he was not good as a singles star but as part of the group and in a tag team he did draw.


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

One Shed said:


> Stop putting words in people's mouths. No one ever said he drew more than Hogan or Sting. But he was a major part of the original nWo and was part of what got the group over. To say otherwise is nonsense. Yes, he was not good as a singles star but as part of the group and in a tag team he did draw.


Jimmy and Jey Uso are now and forever big time draws, because they routinely prop SmackDown up over 2 million. Gotcha.


----------



## One Shed (Jan 7, 2014)

bdon said:


> Jimmy and Jey Uso are now and forever big time draws, because they routinely prop SmackDown up over 2 million. Gotcha.


What field are you hanging out in that has all these strawmen?

Let me know when the Usos are founding members of a group that changes the business and are still selling merch 25+ years later.


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

One Shed said:


> What field are you hanging out in that has all these strawmen?
> 
> Let me know when the Usos are founding members of a group that changes the business and are still selling merch 25+ years later.


Ok. Let’s put this a way you’ll understand.

Since we’re now in the business of putting over Nash for being a draw based on the popularity of Hogan, then are you ready to claim The Bucks are draws on the fact their group changed the business and were selling merch from a half a planet away FIVE YEARS AGO, so much so that a billionaire bet ONE HUNDRED MILLION DOLLARS on their star power to DRAW money.

You ready to do that? No? Then your argument for Nash standing next to Hogan doesn’t hold much weight.


----------



## 5 Star Giulia ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ (Apr 21, 2014)

One Shed said:


> I dunno why you keep harping on his WWF champion run. He was the worst drawing WWF champ then he went to a different company where he helped draw a ton of money.
> 
> Are we going to argue that people are not draws because they did not draw well in every phase of their career?


*You heard it here first. Rey Mysterio was never a draw because his stuff with Dominik is the shits.*


----------



## One Shed (Jan 7, 2014)

bdon said:


> Ok. Let’s put this a while you’ll understand.
> 
> Since we’re now in the business of putting over Nash for being a draw based on the popularity of Hogan, then are you ready to claim The Bucks are draws on the fact their group changed the business and were selling merch from a half a planet away FIVE YEARS AGO, so much so that a billionaire bet ONE HUNDRED MILLION DOLLARS on their star power to DRAW money.
> 
> You ready to do that? No? Then your argument for Nash standing next to Hogan doesn’t hold much weight.


Most wrestling fans had never heard of the Hardly Boys until AEW existed. Most wrestling fans are not watching AEW at all. AEW has not made a profit yet. I am not saying the Hardlys are NOT draws, they clearly are, but to a much, MUCH lower level than the nWo was.

But all that really does not matter for this argument. Nash as part of the nWo was a draw. Hall and Nash showing up on Nitro was already over before Hogan joined. Hogan made it 10,000 times bigger of course, but the anticipation of who the third guy was going to be was already there with just Hall and Nash.

Just a weird hill populated with strawmen to die on.


----------



## Dickhead1990 (Aug 31, 2016)

I called that response! Do I win a prize?

P.s. Stop arguing over people being draws. Not need to mess your drawers over it!


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## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

One Shed said:


> Most wrestling fans had never heard of the Hardly Boys until AEW existed. Most wrestling fans are not watching AEW at all. AEW has not made a profit yet. I am not saying the Hardlys are NOT draws, they clearly are, but to a much, MUCH lower level than the nWo was.
> 
> But all that really does not matter for this argument. Nash as part of the nWo was a draw. Hall and Nash showing up on Nitro was already over before Hogan joined. Hogan made it 10,000 times bigger of course, but the anticipation of who the third guy was going to be was already there with just Hall and Nash.
> 
> Just a weird hill populated with strawmen to die on.


Ok, well I don’t consider The Bucks seconding Kenny to the ring in the Tokyo Dome or working undercard tag matches in NJPW to be enough of a reason to claim them a draw, but hey, on your definition of a draw, they are a part of the group that had someone bet ONE HUNDRED MILLION DOLLARS ON THEM.

The fact most wrestling fans hadn’t heard of them, and yet they somehow drew an average of a little over half of Raw’s ratings for 3 years? Goddamn these guys are massive draws, One Shed. Better start giving them their flowers, bud.


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## One Shed (Jan 7, 2014)

bdon said:


> Ok, well I don’t consider The Bucks seconding Kenny to the ring in the Tokyo Dome or working undercard tag matches in NJPW to be enough of a reason to claim them a draw, but hey, on your definition of a draw, they are a part of the group that had someone bet ONE HUNDRED MILLION DOLLARS ON THEM.


If I am giving the Hardlys more credit than someone else is, something is really broken with the universe.

Yes, they are part of a group that caused the company to exist. But they are clearly, and hilariously, less draws than the nWo was. Was DX ONLY Shawn Michaels? Just because Hogan was by far the largest piece of the nWo, does not mean several other people involved were not part of it drawing. If you had Doink the Clown and the Repo Man show up and form a group, what would have happened?


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## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

Young Buck$$$

Drawing bigger numbers than Punk. Say it with me. Needle Movers.


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## One Shed (Jan 7, 2014)

bdon said:


> View attachment 131662
> 
> 
> Young Buck$$$
> ...


I see several good reasons there to put more promos on the show.


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## Mustard (Sep 18, 2021)

Seriously, why are some wrestling fans so obsessed with drawing and merchandise sales? Do you watch wrestling to make money or to be entertained?


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## thisissting (Aug 14, 2018)

Fair point from Nash. 5 star matches mean fuck all as meltzer is biased and who cares what he rates matches anyway. Weak comeback from ospray. He is a nobody in the business compared to Nash.


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## mazzah20 (Oct 10, 2019)

TKO Wrestling said:


> In fairness no one in the history of the business has been able to do that.


Nash did that night.


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## yeahbaby! (Jan 27, 2014)

The XL 2 said:


> *Guess everyone bringing up Diesel missed Nash's 96-99 WCW run. Diesel was a shitty McMahon character that Nash was forced to play. *Guess what? If Vince put Rock and Austin on top when they were Rocky Maivia and The Ringmaster, they wouldn't have drawn shit either. Ospreay is a dime a dozen modern worker anyway. What makes him better than peak Paul London?
> 
> 
> The Wolfpac was one of the hottest acts in wrestling during the hottest period in pro wrestling history and Nash was its leader. You have no idea what you're talking about.
> ...


You raise a good point. When Diesel suddenly got the belt out of nowhere he dropped half of what got him over as the badass and became Mr Smiling Nice Guy in black leather; and they didn't even put him over on his first big defence at the Rumble 1995. The fact they put their new champ against the arguable FOTC and top babyface in Bret Hart was a horrible decision if you want the crowd to get behind the guy as top babyface. Nash's abilities or lack of as a performer to get himself over as the top dog aside, the booking was terrible from McMahon.

The flipside to the coin is if you want to attribute the Diesel champ disaster run to bad booking, you can't avoid attributing a lot of his WCW success to the frankly excellent booking there. He debuts as this hotly anticipated Big Deal then immediately gets to powerbomb the authority figure through a table (after weirdly giving a flawed . You can't ask for a bigger impact to fall in your lap. Then, he gets to align with the biggest babyface megastar in the history of the business in Hogan turning heel, instantly making him part of the biggest angle since Rock n Wrestling in the 80s. This isn't to say Nash doesn't deserve credit for running with the ball the way he did but he really lucked out with amazing booking and presentation.


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## $Dolladrew$ (Jun 15, 2020)

The Legit Lioness said:


> *Yeah, that's kind of the point. Kevin Nash made millions with 3 moves and the best promo ability in WCW. Meanwhile, Will Ospreay has New Japan on pace to be outdrawn by STARDOM by summer 2023.*


Was also deadweight as a champ and one of the lowest draws LMFAO.

Nash showing his age yet again

Let's tune into his podcast and hear some more lies and embellishments.....


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## Hotdiggity11 (Aug 24, 2006)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1564298490838130688


WOOOOOO!


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## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

Hotdiggity11 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1564298490838130688
> 
> 
> WOOOOOO!


Now we have someone that can speak on it.


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## One Shed (Jan 7, 2014)

Hotdiggity11 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1564298490838130688
> 
> 
> WOOOOOO!


Too bad not his real account


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## Hotdiggity11 (Aug 24, 2006)

One Shed said:


> Too bad not his real account


But not wrong. 🤣


Flair could probably say he has ran more bar tabs in a week than Ospreay has drawn in a year. WOOOOO!


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## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

Hotdiggity11 said:


> But not wrong. 🤣
> 
> 
> Flair could probably say he has ran more bar tabs in a week than Ospreay has drawn in a year. WOOOOO!


I make 6 figures, and Ric Flair can say he’s ran a bigger bar tab than my yearly salary. Haha


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## HugoCortez (Mar 7, 2019)

The Legit Lioness said:


> * As for overall attendance in comparison to percentages, I think STARDOM needs to get out of their comfort zone when it comes to booking venues, because they're hitting capacity on every show at the small gymnasiums. They can definitely fill up those New Japan arenas with their stacked cards. I'm not going to sit here and say a house show featuring a Hanan vs. Waka main event will sell out the Tokyo Dome, but when you look at these five star GP cards, you know damn well several of the last shows would pack a big house.*


They aren't really being that conservative/comfort zone with the venues they book: They have run the 14.500 capacity nippon budokan and the 16.000 capacity Osaka Jo Hall and the 11.000 capacity Sumo Hall last year, with them running the latter again two nights in a row this year. That's 5 shows in 10k venues held in 20 months. And they are going to run the budokan again later on this year. I don't think they could be filling up the Yokohama arena or the Tokyo Dome.

Just take a look at the numbers of other promotions:

All Japan Women's Pro Wrestling attendance numbers

GAEA Japan attendance numbers

JWP attendance numbers

Stardom attendance numbers

(ignore the number for the weekly pro wrestling show at tokyo dome since that was an event held by every big promotion from Japan other than WAR. Also, the 11.000 number for the top JWP is also wrong, since they actually got 6.500 and the AJW Big Egg and DEstiny numbers were actually around 28.000 and 12.000 respectively)



Stardom are actually booking the opposite of conservative when it comes to venues. Well, everybody is, since prices to rent a good deal of those venues dropped due to the pandemic sinking the business. If anything, rossy should book out of his comfort zone and book some proper consistent heat and grudges into his storylines instead of being afraid of scaring away the niche uncle audience. The man worked for zenjo for a decade and half, one would think he'd have witnessed some ballsy booking first hand


----------



## BIIIG Nige (5 mo ago)

When did Nash last have that 7 star match? 🤣🤣🤣


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## DZ Crew (Sep 26, 2016)

BIIIG Nige said:


> When did Nash last have that 7 star match? 🤣🤣🤣


Probably around the time when Meltzer's ratings still meant something lol


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## MEMS (Jun 18, 2013)

Watched Nash's entire career. I was a fan. But let's be honest here.... He was one of the least talented "top guys" in wrestling history. He had a GREAT look and had some charisma but he was NOT great on the mic and just horrid in the ring. Luckily for him fans did not expect as much from matches as we do now. He was a coattail rider. First HBK, then Hall and Hogan. He has a huge ego so he will never be able to see it but he just comes off so bad when he confronts these mega athletes. It's not 1998 anymore and fans want different things. In 3 matches in AEW, I've been more entertained by Ospreay than I ever was by solo Nash.


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## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

MEMS said:


> Watched Nash's entire career. I was a fan. But let's be honest here.... He was one of the least talented "top guys" in wrestling history. He had a GREAT look and had some charisma but he was NOT great on the mic and just horrid in the ring. Luckily for him fans did not expect as much from matches as we do now. He was a coattail rider. First HBK, then Hall and Hogan. He has a huge ego so he will never be able to see it but he just comes off so bad when he confronts these mega athletes. It's not 1998 anymore and fans want different things. In 3 matches in AEW, I've been more entertained by Ospreay than I ever was by solo Nash.


Yep. Nash never did shit as the man. So, he should stfu or start telling Ospreay to find some coattails to ride.


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## Mustard (Sep 18, 2021)

yeahbaby! said:


> You raise a good point. When Diesel suddenly got the belt out of nowhere he dropped half of what got him over as the badass and became Mr Smiling Nice Guy in black leather; and they didn't even put him over on his first big defence at the Rumble 1995. The fact they put their new champ against the arguable FOTC and top babyface in Bret Hart was a horrible decision if you want the crowd to get behind the guy as top babyface. Nash's abilities or lack of as a performer to get himself over as the top dog aside, the booking was terrible from McMahon.
> 
> The flipside to the coin is if you want to attribute the Diesel champ disaster run to bad booking, you can't avoid attributing a lot of his WCW success to the frankly excellent booking there. He debuts as this hotly anticipated Big Deal then immediately gets to powerbomb the authority figure through a table (after weirdly giving a flawed . You can't ask for a bigger impact to fall in your lap. Then, he gets to align with the biggest babyface megastar in the history of the business in Hogan turning heel, instantly making him part of the biggest angle since Rock n Wrestling in the 80s. This isn't to say Nash doesn't deserve credit for running with the ball the way he did but he really lucked out with amazing booking and presentation.


Bret Hart was saying at the time that the WWF creative needed to let Kevin get over more and more first by letting him carry on doing what he's doing, and that he's about 12-18 months from being ready for the huge push as world champion. But Vince wanted the big Diesel push now (late 1994, into 1995), so that's the way it went. Diesel's reign didn't really feel bad until post-WrestleMania 11, to be fair, once he stopped wrestling Bret and Shawn, and started wrestling Psycho Sid and Mabel. They kept Diesel as world champion for a year. It felt incredibly long. That hadn't been done in the WWF with a world champion since Hulk Hogan in between WrestleManias 5 and 6.


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## 5 Star Giulia ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ (Apr 21, 2014)

*@Firefromthegods

This is the kind of trash talk that I want on my television set-not droning on about FIVE STAR MATCHES, BRUV! 

 https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1564745954426818569*


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## Jones1 (Aug 5, 2021)

MEMS said:


> Watched Nash's entire career. I was a fan. But let's be honest here.... He was one of the least talented "top guys" in wrestling history. He had a GREAT look and had some charisma but he was NOT great on the mic and just horrid in the ring. Luckily for him fans did not expect as much from matches as we do now. He was a coattail rider. First HBK, then Hall and Hogan. He has a huge ego so he will never be able to see it but he just comes off so bad when he confronts these mega athletes. It's not 1998 anymore and fans want different things. In 3 matches in AEW, I've been more entertained by Ospreay than I ever was by solo Nash.


Fans don't expect more from the matches now. Being on the internet forums can make you think that, but it's personalities and their characters that get people interested still now. Internet fans want different things, but they don't make up a lot of people, which is why Ospreay isn't known or cared about by many people.


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## Irish Jet (Nov 15, 2011)

MEMS said:


> Watched Nash's entire career. I was a fan. But let's be honest here.... He was one of the least talented "top guys" in wrestling history. He had a GREAT look and had some charisma but he was NOT great on the mic and just horrid in the ring. Luckily for him fans did not expect as much from matches as we do now. He was a coattail rider. First HBK, then Hall and Hogan. He has a huge ego so he will never be able to see it but he just comes off so bad when he confronts these mega athletes. It's not 1998 anymore and fans want different things. In 3 matches in AEW, I've been more entertained by Ospreay than I ever was by solo Nash.


He was pretty damn good on the mic. Arguably one of the best in WCW. Not that that's a high bar.


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## GiltiatheDarkNight (Nov 21, 2016)

See this is why I can't stand IWC fans, y'all are too small and too vocal. Every time my friends who haven't watched since the Attitude era will go online to look into things and will always come across a shitty ass whatculture article or video and get instantly turned off. I love wrestling but if it was only about matches and nothing else Rulon Gardner and Matt Lindland would be Rock/Austin levels of popularity. Also double fuck Whatculture because they give Nash way too much shit even though he's the reason their indy darlings can actually make a living off the craft they seem to love so much.


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## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

GiltiatheDarkNight said:


> See this is why I can't stand IWC fans, y'all are too small and too vocal. Every time my friends who haven't watched since the Attitude era will go online to look into things and will always come across a shitty ass whatculture article or video and get instantly turned off. I love wrestling but if it was only about matches and nothing else Rulon Gardner and Matt Lindland would be Rock/Austin levels of popularity. Also double fuck Whatculture because they give Nash way too much shit even though he's the reason their indy darlings can actually make a living off the craft they seem to love so much.


Yep. Nash was a good enough guy that he left A TON of money on the table for everyone after him.


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## CovidFan (Aug 19, 2020)

GiltiatheDarkNight said:


> he's the reason their indy darlings can actually make a living off the craft they seem to love so much.


I actually think it's the exact opposite. He had a reasonable sized hand in destroying WCW which actually took jobs away from wrestlers (and other crew members) for two decades. idk how you could even make a case for Nash of all people paving the way for *any *wrestlers to be able to make a living let alone the guys he tried to undermine quite a few times.


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## JerryMark (May 7, 2016)

PhenomenalOne11 said:


> Will Ospreay is a dumb fucking mark, how this guy is considered one of the best in the world is a mystery to me.


did a thousand flips and never drew a dime.


----------



## DOTL (Jan 3, 2012)

Lol Nash


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## Jones1 (Aug 5, 2021)

CovidFan said:


> I actually think it's the exact opposite. He had a reasonable sized hand in destroying WCW which actually took jobs away from wrestlers (and other crew members) for two decades. idk how you could even make a case for Nash of all people paving the way for *any *wrestlers to be able to make a living let alone the guys he tried to undermine quite a few times.


How did Nash have a reasonable sized hand in destroying WCW?


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## 5 Star Giulia ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ (Apr 21, 2014)

CovidFan said:


> I actually think it's the exact opposite. He had a reasonable sized hand in destroying WCW which actually took jobs away from wrestlers (and other crew members) for two decades. idk how you could even make a case for Nash of all people paving the way for *any *wrestlers to be able to make a living let alone the guys he tried to undermine quite a few times.


*By proxy of strong arming fat GUARANTEED contracts in WCW, Kevin Nash forced Vince McMahon to significantly increase pay for WWF wrestlers.*


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## MEMS (Jun 18, 2013)

Irish Jet said:


> He was pretty damn good on the mic. Arguably one of the best in WCW. Not that that's a high bar.


Disagree. Especially having to stand next to or follow guys like Hall and Hogan. He was not good at all.


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## MEMS (Jun 18, 2013)

The Legit Lioness said:


> *By proxy of strong arming fat GUARANTEED contracts in WCW, Kevin Nash forced Vince McMahon to significantly increase pay for WWF wrestlers.*


Followed Hall's lead. Now they were definitely worth more as a pair, but Hall was the guy that lead the way at that point.


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## BIIIG Nige (5 mo ago)

MEMS said:


> Followed Hall's lead. Now they were definitely worth more as a pair, but Hall was the guy that lead the way at that point.


He was Vinnie Vegas in WCW years before LOL. He has no right to criticise Osprey. Osprey is a much better wrestler all around. Vinnie a better character.


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## MEMS (Jun 18, 2013)

Jones1 said:


> Fans don't expect more from the matches now. Being on the internet forums can make you think that, but it's personalities and their characters that get people interested still now. Internet fans want different things, but they don't make up a lot of people, which is why Ospreay isn't known or cared about by many people.


Ok....AEW fans expect more. Actually WWE fans do as well. This why nobody gives a crap about Omos or that big guy they tried to put with Crews. Wrestling fans in the 80s wanted a different product than the 70s. 90s fans evolved and were done with the cartoon crap of the 80s. Late 90s/early 2k fans wanted more fast paced action and more violence. Now, fans want better athletes doing cool athletic shit. Of course you need to make the fans care about you, but you can do that thru your work rate. You don't think the fans care about Claudio?


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## Dr. Jones (Jan 3, 2012)

CovidFan said:


> I actually think it's the exact opposite. He had a reasonable sized hand in destroying WCW which actually took jobs away from wrestlers (and other crew members) for two decades. idk how you could even make a case for Nash of all people paving the way for *any *wrestlers to be able to make a living let alone the guys he tried to undermine quite a few times.


Nash at least deserved to paid very well and was a big money name for them during their hot period. WCW/Bischoff really fucked everything up by signing guys like BIG SWOL to $400,000 contracts and giving Master P $500,000 for a few appearances. That's how WCW started losing money at breakneck speed. Bischoff is a fucking moron who crapped his pants when WWF didn't concede and lay down and die after 1997


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## AuthorOfPosts (Feb 9, 2020)

Is Will Ospreay a big deal? No.

Is Kenny Omega a big deal? No.

Does Meltzer's love for them change that? No.

And that's the point being made by Nash. Being interesting is more important than impressing a journalist. Using Meltzer's "star ratings" to suggest why a wrestler is great is just pathetic.


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## Jones1 (Aug 5, 2021)

MEMS said:


> Ok....AEW fans expect more. Actually WWE fans do as well. This why nobody gives a crap about Omos or that big guy they tried to put with Crews. Wrestling fans in the 80s wanted a different product than the 70s. 90s fans evolved and were done with the cartoon crap of the 80s. Late 90s/early 2k fans wanted more fast paced action and more violence. Now, fans want better athletes doing cool athletic shit. Of course you need to make the fans care about you, but you can do that thru your work rate. You don't think the fans care about Claudio?


If The Rock or Steve Austin were young and in the industry now they would still be the best despite not doing "cool athletic shit" in the ring. Aren't the two guys that get the best ratings are MJF and Punk in AEW? They hardly wrestle a fast pace style. The top guys in the WWE (Lesnar, Reigns, Lashley etc) in the past few years are characters and not people doing "cool athletic shit".

Work rate alone doesn't make a star.


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## MEMS (Jun 18, 2013)

Jones1 said:


> If The Rock or Steve Austin were young and in the industry now they would still be the best despite not doing "cool athletic shit" in the ring. Aren't the two guys that get the best ratings are MJF and Punk in AEW? They hardly wrestle a fast pace style. The top guys in the WWE (Lesnar, Reigns, Lashley etc) in the past few years are characters and not people doing "cool athletic shit".
> 
> Work rate alone doesn't make a star.


Well shit if you're going to use two of the biggest stars in wrestling history than.... You got me.


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## Jones1 (Aug 5, 2021)

MEMS said:


> Well shit if you're going to use two of the biggest stars in wrestling history than.... You got me.


I'm talking about if they weren't already stars (this should have been obvious if you have any common sense). If they were coming up now they would still get over and would be the biggest stars in AEW. Fans wouldn't expect more as you claim. If Nash was young he would still get over and be a bigger star than Ospreay. Not that is a hard achievement.

As I pointed out, the biggest stars in the industry now are not wrestling in the style you say fans expect. They are however guys who have charisma, a good look, and personality.


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## MEMS (Jun 18, 2013)

Jones1 said:


> I'm talking about if they weren't already stars (this should have been obvious if you have any common sense). If they were coming up now they would still get over and would be the biggest stars in AEW. Fans wouldn't expect more as you claim. If Nash was young he would still get over and be a bigger star than Ospreay. Not that is a hard achievement.
> 
> As I pointed out, the biggest stars in the industry now are not wrestling in the style you say fans expect. They are however guys who have charisma, a good look, and personality.


Disagree with that premise. AEW is around because they catered to that crowd that wants the high work rate matches. That's the base. They can survive off that. Getting a superstar like Punk was a no brainer and of course a guy with that reputation is going to boost ratings. It's great to have guys like him. Him and Mox can still go though. They may not be as technically sound but they can still put on great 20+ minute matches when called upon. 

Kevin Nash, on his own, wouldn't draw a dime right now.


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## The XL 2 (Sep 13, 2016)

BIIIG Nige said:


> He was Vinnie Vegas in WCW years before LOL. He has no right to criticise Osprey. Osprey is a much better wrestler all around. Vinnie a better character.


Prime Kevin Nash was a significantly better overall talent than Will Ospreay. The only thing Ospreay arguably has him beat in his in ring work, and that's if you like his style of work.


----------



## Kishido (Aug 12, 2014)

Will and Kenny killed it at Dynamite with a 10 star match and bringing new viewers in


----------



## Jones1 (Aug 5, 2021)

MEMS said:


> Disagree with that premise. AEW is around because they catered to that crowd that wants the high work rate matches. That's the base. They can survive off that. Getting a superstar like Punk was a no brainer and of course a guy with that reputation is going to boost ratings. It's great to have guys like him. Him and Mox can still go though. They may not be as technically sound but they can still put on great 20+ minute matches when called upon.
> 
> Kevin Nash, on his own, wouldn't draw a dime right now.


AEW has very few fans. That's their problem. Maybe what they're doing isn't working very well. The ones that actually make a difference to the ratings don't wrestle like you say people expect/ These are facts (Punk, Mox, MJF). Come back in a year and we'll see if any wrestler becomes a star through doing "cool athletic shit". It won't happen.


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## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

Jones1 said:


> AEW has very few fans. That's their problem. Maybe what they're doing isn't working very well. The ones that actually make a difference to the ratings don't wrestle like you say people expect/ These are facts (Punk, Mox, MJF). Come back in a year and we'll see if any wrestler becomes a star through doing "cool athletic shit". It won't happen.


Punk, Mox, and MJF have never done more than the typical AEW quarter hour. I guess they’re not draws either.


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## MEMS (Jun 18, 2013)

Jones1 said:


> AEW has very few fans. That's their problem. Maybe what they're doing isn't working very well. The ones that actually make a difference to the ratings don't wrestle like you say people expect/ These are facts (Punk, Mox, MJF). Come back in a year and we'll see if any wrestler becomes a star through doing "cool athletic shit". It won't happen.


Very few fans? They're doing a million viewers weekly in a time where TV ratings are almost impossible to fully track. What a nonsensical comment.


----------

