# AEW Has No Idea...



## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

I know they have their fans here but after the abomination of a show we got this week I genuinely need to point out how much of a clue this company doesn't have. I understand writing 2 hours of TV each week is hard work and that we're in the midst of a pandemic right now but when the same old shit happens week to week it just proves that they don't have a clue what they are doing week to week.

Reasons:

- Nothing ever makes sense. Marko Stunt gets his ass kicked and returns the next week fine and looking for another ass kicking, Moxley this week arrives at the start of the show absolutely fuming mad but doesn't do anything until the very end of the show, Jericho arguing with a drone multiple times, Hardy teleporting, Hardy changing clothes during a street fight, Kenny "Best In The World" Omega playing with oil on international television, Big monster Brodie Lee becoming a Vince McMahon cult leader knock off, the constant flip flopping of characters, the stories that make no sense it's all just so hard to follow and make sense of.

- Comedy. A lot of the AEW fans say to ignore this stuff but how can you? AEW had four weeks of build for a comedy sixty second squash match tonight, last week we had Joey Janela taking Cody Rhodes to his limits, Marko Stunt is a regular fixture of the show despite the fact that he should be nowhere near a wrestling contract, the Inner Circle thugs liking stuffed animals, Kenny fucking around with Nakazawa, Orange Cassidy, The Best Friends it's all just constantly in your face trying to make you giggle at how fake and stupid wrestling is but then in the very next segment they want you to take shit seriously but it's impossible to do so.

- Too much wrestling. Give me a hot angle to sink my teeth into. I don't need every match bar squash matches to go over 10 minutes. There was no reason Chris Daniels had to have a lengthy match with Brodie Lee tonight on television, why are main event guys going toe to toe with midcard acts every week? Why is a visibly broken down Matt Hardy having lengthy TV matches? Book people intelligently and book more angles if you're not creative enough to come up with interesting angles on a weekly basis then hire someone who is.

- Cody. I was a fan of Cody for a long time but he is very much the Triple H of AEW. He has his wife all over the show most weeks and getting involved in angles, his brother is in a prominent spot when really he should be opening shows at best, he's got his finger in everything and this week he has Archer and Jake backing away from him despite them both being bad ass heels who don't care. Difference between Cody and Triple H is that Triple H is more talented and Stephanie is more talented than Brandi Rhodes. How cringe was the segment this week when Cody turned up in a truck ready to raise some hell on Hoyt and Roberts? Even further the big special guest in Mike Tyson is of course involved in the Cody segment and not the Moxley match despite the fact Moxley is your World Heavyweight Champion.

- Too many marks in management. I was on Cody's Twitter this morning because someone posted one of his tweets here and he posted the Mike Tyson video of him preparing for a return to boxing with shifty eyes. I thought to myself "Oh, Tyson is probably going to turn up in AEW soon" only for it to be announced this week that he's in. Not everything has to be a fucking tease on your social media to pump fans up you are allowed to let shit happen on TV like it's supposed to. Kenny, Khan and The Bucks are all just as guilty as well.

- Overpushing of WWE guys. I don't mind guys like Cody (Within reason), Moxley, Archer and younger WWE guys coming in but why is Matt Hardy in 2020 running off your top heel faction (Armed with bats mind you) and getting a considerable amount of TV time? Why is a near 40 year old Brodie Lee your top heel despite only debuting about a month ago? Why is Hager involved in anything? 

Interested in your views.


----------



## rbl85 (Nov 21, 2017)

That's your opinion but i think your'e the one not having idea.

Like the peoples who were crying like newborn babies about OC because "he's ruining the business ouin ouin".


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

Chip Chipperson said:


> I know they have their fans here but after the abomination of a show we got this week I genuinely need to point out how much of a clue this company doesn't have. I understand writing 2 hours of TV each week is hard work and that we're in the midst of a pandemic right now but when the same old shit happens week to week it just proves that they don't have a clue what they are doing week to week.
> 
> Reasons:
> 
> ...


I couldn’t agree more. I ain’t even so much mad as I am depressed. I enjoy matches, and I’m forced to watch Matt Hardy rule over much better performers in Omega, Sammy, and Santana.

EC3 should just hurry and sign, start a feud with MJF where he can over, and instantly get a title shot vs Moxley.

I stopped being a member of the viewing audience 19 years ago to avoid WWE. I come back pumped to see some of the best matches, wrestlers no one has ever seen putting on some great shows.

And now I have to basically wade through WWE guys’ selfish BS just to get to the stuff I like once every couple of weeks or so.


----------



## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

rbl85 said:


> That's your opinion.


Yes, who else's opinion would it be?


----------



## rbl85 (Nov 21, 2017)

Chip Chipperson said:


> Yes, who else's opinion would it be?


It was just a nice way to say that it's your opinion and that we don't give a fuck about it.


----------



## El Hammerstone (Jan 11, 2020)

Chip Chipperson said:


> Yes, who else's opinion would it be?


In before the "Cornette Sycophant" line.


----------



## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

rbl85 said:


> It was just a nice way to say that it's your opinion and that we don't give a fuck about it.


Why are you on an opinion forum if you don't care about other peoples opinions?


----------



## One Shed (Jan 7, 2014)

El Hammerstone said:


> In before the "Cornette Sycophant" line.


I do not know how to comment on this post until I hear his next podcast.


----------



## rbl85 (Nov 21, 2017)

Chip Chipperson said:


> Why are you on an opinion forum if you don't care about other peoples opinions?


I do care until a certain point.
It's just a pain in the ass to see Always the same peoples posting 36484 posts shitting about everything they see because it didn't go how they wanted it to go….you're not the center of the world.

I must admit that at least you have arguments and don't look like a hater.


----------



## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

rbl85 said:


> I must admit that at least you have arguments and don't look like a hater.


So why are you here shitting on my thread if I make good arguments? Wouldn't it be better to have a debate or leave a comment?


----------



## Botchy SinCara (Apr 24, 2013)

Well you lose here by calling HHH more talented and saying Dustin shouldn't have a prime spot 

Until Cody puts himself over for years with world title wins you cant really call him HHH and while Brandi is annoying they dont have many talents to work with right now


----------



## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

Botchy SinCara said:


> Well you lose here by calling HHH more talented and saying Dustin shouldn't have a prime spot
> 
> Until Cody puts himself over for years with world title wins you cant really call him HHH and while Brandi is annoying they dont have many talents to work with right now


You don't think Triple H is more talented than Cody? I'd say even the biggest Cody fan would be able to say that Triple H is better.


----------



## shandcraig (Mar 23, 2008)

Its becuase they dont know who tjey are yet. AEW is far from finding its infidelity yet and thats normal. But they need to focus on finding that and not on wwe. They need that passion i dont see that intensity that direction that identity that thisiswho the fuck we're. Right now they feel brandless but i mean the modern wwe is brandless.

New company it will probably take them until next xmas to find its way. 


The other issue is they seem to make every match cluster fuck andi dont know how thats possible
What happened to a proper traditional match. 

These guys are wrestlers that have a vision for themselves not for entire brand or others. 

I give cody credit for being such a hard worker but he dont fucking have what Dusty did.

Anyways sooner or later change will happen . Tony wants aew to do well


----------



## Chan Hung (Dec 28, 2011)

Matt Hardy drew a ton of ratings, Im sure he is drawing viewers for AEW. Shit, even Marko Stunt is a draw, isn't he?


----------



## El Hammerstone (Jan 11, 2020)

shandcraig said:


> Its becuase they dont know who tjey are yet. AEW is far from finding its infidelity yet and thats normal. But they need to focus on finding that and not on wwe. They need that passion i dont see that intensity that direction that identity that thisiswho the fuck we're. Right now they feel brandless but i mean the modern wwe is brandless.
> 
> New company it will probably take them until next xmas to find its way.
> 
> ...


This company has some great pieces, but seem to make a series of baffling mistakes which counteract the good they do. The thing is, so many of their mistakes are more easily fixable than the worst of TNA or WCW 99-2001, which gives me a sense of hope, and yet it also makes it more frustrating at the same time.


----------



## Prosper (Mar 25, 2015)

Chip Chipperson said:


> I know they have their fans here but after the abomination of a show we got this week I genuinely need to point out how much of a clue this company doesn't have. I understand writing 2 hours of TV each week is hard work and that we're in the midst of a pandemic right now but when the same old shit happens week to week it just proves that they don't have a clue what they are doing week to week.
> 
> Reasons:
> 
> ...


I'm bored so I'll bite. 

1.) Marko Stunt is the guy to squash right now I guess. As long as that's his only role then fuck it. It's better than him being in legit tag matches with Jurassic Express. I agree on Moxley, not sure why he didn't just come out and beat the shit out of The Dark Order. My guess is that they were being conservative because half the match is Mox vs the whole world (Dark Order) at DON, but yeah it could've been booked better. All the Hardy stuff is over with fans so they are right to keep running with it. Doesn't matter what we think. Omega does need to push himself like a star, but as we have discussed before, he was doing that until the pandemic hit. Once things are back to normal, he'll be back on track. But yeah, no more baby oil. That shit's embarrassing. 

2.) They have to keep doing comedy. You have subsets of the audience that ONLY watch for comedy. That's why WWE does it so much. 

3.) They had hot angles going, again this is a result of the world's issues. Bucks vs Omega/Page with Page's heel turn, Death Triangle formation, MJF/Mox was about to start, Brodie debut as leader of the Dark Order, all of those hot angles not living up to their potential because shows are taped and people can't make it. Matches don't need to be so competitive though, I agree with you there. 

4.) You have to make stars. Cody is one of the primary reasons AEW exists. If I was Cody I would push myself too. He's not World Champion and he's been losing like crazy. The guy has been generally selfless. He's been losing so much that he should actually beat Archer at DON. He needs to throw himself a bone. But he's most likely losing that one too. Cody is ridiculously over and fans treat him like a God. They better push the guy. I don't get the Cody hate at all. He's not giving himself all of the "good storylines" as someone alluded to earlier in the live thread. Theres so much going on outside of Cody thats been fire. Especially the Hangan Page stuff. 

5.) This is irrelevant. They need to promote everything as much as possible. Cody needs to re-tweet the Mike Tyson news multiple times in fact. They are a new company and the pandemic has dropped them to under 700k viewers, which is actually still pretty good. but they have to try and stop the bleeding so early on.

6.) Answered this in the live thread


----------



## MoxAsylum (Jan 9, 2020)

Chip Chipperson said:


> I know they have their fans here but after the abomination of a show we got this week I genuinely need to point out how much of a clue this company doesn't have. I understand writing 2 hours of TV each week is hard work and that we're in the midst of a pandemic right now but when the same old shit happens week to week it just proves that they don't have a clue what they are doing week to week.
> 
> Reasons:
> 
> ...


Careful, the AEW marks will call you a crybaby and say their product does no wrong.

I agree with everything you said. Marko Stunt is an absolute geek who needs to stay off TV. Matt Hardy is the definition of cringe, Cody is an HHH wannabe, Jericho is becoming lazy, everyone feels like they are on the same playing field since AEW feels the need to have midcard acts going toe to toe with main event talent. AEW is a mess right now.


----------



## RapShepard (Jun 20, 2014)

I think hardcore wrestling fans in general are either too hard on wrestling or comically enthusiastic in their hyperbole. Like this was a fine episode. You could've spent 2 hours doing way less entertaining shit. This wasn't an awful episode nor was it amazing and something you remember for years. Most TV wrestling episodes are just solid nothing more nothing less. It's like some of y'all expect the best episode ever every week, then the other half are so easily impressed that you see the best thing ever, every fucking week.


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

I checked out the minute I see Matt Hardy being made into a world beater.


----------



## MEMS (Jun 18, 2013)

Matt Hardy has really brought down the product. If I don’t change the channel fast enough and get a look at his awful gimmick I can’t help but cringe at how bad it is.


----------



## Prosper (Mar 25, 2015)

MEMS said:


> Matt Hardy has really brought down the product. If I don’t change the channel fast enough and get a look at his awful gimmick I can’t help but cringe at how bad it is.


It does suck and its cringe AF but they don't really have much choice honestly. People love him so they gotta push him, especially being that he's already established. The people that mark for Broken Matt far outweigh us who don't want him in the main event scene.


----------



## Blade Runner (Jan 24, 2012)

The show is a real bore 80% of the time. You have jobbers wrestling the established guys for 20+ minutes as if there's any doubt in anyone's mind who's going to win. Dynamite mastered the art of filling up airtime with pointless matches.

They're pretty good at vignettes. I'll give them that. Comedy not so much. The stuff that makes air feels like an extension of BTE, and BTE has some of the cringiest try-hard attempts at humor this side of grade school.


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

They are doing their best WWE impression. A lot of those things are WWE tropes. I can't remember which poster it was (I think they've either been booted or stopped posting), but they kept trying to label anyone with any criticism of AEW as someone that wanted "AEWWE." That was the fucking problem from the start -- they are too WWE. They are just too sports entertainment. And some people will make a deal out of them promising to be sports-based, and that's cool -- but it's not even that they promised it and didn't deliver -- it's just fucking bad. It's PWG with a WCW budget. Or it's TNA without Russo written by people who claim to hate Russo but emulate him. 

It's got the magic cameras, the invisible walls, the illogical wait times, the "how did that happen?" production cues, and the same overall stagy feel. Because these people have grown up watching WWE and despite their whinging and the fans' discontent, they don't know how to divorce that influence from themselves. They can't picture wrestling with licensed music or logical motivations. It's just broad pantomimed actions, evil grins, bad acting and random occurrences. And the most nauseating thing about it is that they can't pat themselves on the back for it any harder.

WWE is shit, but AEW is copycat shit, and in some ways that is even more infuriating. At least WWE is somewhat inspired (gross word to use in this context) in their decision to be absolute garbage. AEW thinks it is breaking ground somehow.


----------



## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

prosperwithdeen said:


> It does suck and its cringe AF but they don't really have much choice honestly. People love him so they gotta push him, especially being that he's already established. The people that mark for Broken Matt far outweigh us who don't want him in the main event scene.


You know you can have an act that is over and loved WITHOUT pushing them to the very top, right?

For example Hurricane is pretty loved by audiences around the world but the furthest he ever got was the European Title. Matt Hardy could be in the AEW midcard and nobody would be upset about broken Matt not getting a super push.


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

Well, I would be upset, because I fucking hate Broken Matt. The gimmick is awful.


----------



## reyfan (May 23, 2011)

I tried to give AEW a shot, I was excited at the idea of WWE having true competition, but them pushing failed ex-WWE midcard guys as main events looks just like TNA, why aren't they making Kenny the star of the show? Him and the Bucks are the only known talent they have that WWE hasn't touched, they should be focusing on what they have that WWE doesn't, not just giving any ex-WWE alot of TV time to try and stick it to Vince, if Vince cared about the talent AEW are pushing he wouldn't have let them go to begin with.


----------



## the_flock (Nov 23, 2016)

I stopped watching just before lock down. I couldn't take anymore. The product isn't any better than Impact 5 years ago. The mistakes they're making are baffling and their choice of stars is atrocious.


----------



## Alright_Mate (Jul 21, 2014)

Cringeworthy, tacky wrestling is what AEW is.

Matt Hardy’s broken gimmick is at it’s best when he’s involved in segments and vignettes, once he has an actual match though, then you realise just how cringeworthy his gimmick actually is.

And don’t get me started on Ortiz, he is one of the main reasons I just had to stop watching, his whole act and his constant over selling is cringeworthy as fuck.


----------



## Optikk is All Elite (Sep 5, 2007)

Chip Chipperson said:


> I know they have their fans here but after the abomination of a show we got this week I genuinely need to point out how much of a clue this company doesn't have. I understand writing 2 hours of TV each week is hard work and that we're in the midst of a pandemic right now but when the same old shit happens week to week it just proves that they don't have a clue what they are doing week to week.
> 
> Reasons:
> 
> ...


I agree with your lengthy match criticism. It was one of my main gripes with this weeks product. That tag match was ridiculously long. Why? I have no idea. I also think Brodie should’ve looked a bit more undefeatable.
Hager hasn’t really done much since debuting, so no real problems with him there.
and Hardy, the weirdo and goofball that he is, has fans. I don’t want him, but he brings some fan awareness to the product. I still think he wasn’t the best signee. The broken gimmick is just dumb.

these points I agree w you for sure. Sometimes I feel like AEW has lost their sense of direction. I’m hoping that when the fans return, things return back to normal.


----------



## EmbassyForever (Dec 29, 2011)

rbl85 said:


> I do care until a certain point.
> It's just a pain in the ass to see Always the same peoples posting 36484 posts shitting about everything they see because it didn't go how they wanted it to go….you're not the center of the world.
> 
> I must admit that at least you have arguments and don't look like a hater.


I love how the most active, "top contributors" users in the AEW section are the ones who always bitch & moan about the product.

And I thought Twitter was toxic...


----------



## rbl85 (Nov 21, 2017)

EmbassyForever said:


> I love how the most active, "top contributors" users in the AEW section are the ones who always bitch & moan about the product.
> 
> And I thought Twitter was toxic...


And those top contributors are peoples with the less number of posts overall.


----------



## El Hammerstone (Jan 11, 2020)

rbl85 said:


> And those top contributors are peoples with the less number of posts overall.


For me, it's because AEW's existence brought me back to pro wrestling.


----------



## rbl85 (Nov 21, 2017)

El Hammerstone said:


> For me, it's because AEW's existence brought me back to pro wrestling.


I wasn't talking about you because you write equally about what you like and don't like. 
Your first post wasn't "this sucks" or "they dont know what they're doing".


----------



## Cult03 (Oct 31, 2016)

EmbassyForever said:


> I love how the most active, "top contributors" users in the AEW section are the ones who always bitch & moan about the product.
> 
> And I thought Twitter was toxic...


You should look up the phrase toxic positivity because that's what this fan base consists of. I can sit there and write like 50 positive things about what I liked about the show, 5 negatives and there's 100% chance I'll be on here arguing those negative things because it's what you geniuses respond to. This was proven today after the show. I had a lot of positives and very few negatives and spent the day arguing about those negatives. You guys know that you can admit that AEW isn't perfect and move on right? The world won't end up if you say something sucked and Cody will still be your friend on Twitter.


----------



## TheGreatBanana (Jul 7, 2012)

rbl85 said:


> It was just a nice way to say that it's your opinion and that we don't give a fuck about it.


Dude shut up, he made valid points.


----------



## rbl85 (Nov 21, 2017)

TheGreatBanana said:


> Dude shut up, he made valid points.


If he make valid points for you then it's great but it's not the case for me, I have the right to disagree like you have the right to agree.


----------



## EmbassyForever (Dec 29, 2011)

Cult03 said:


> You should look up the phrase toxic positivity because that's what this fan base consists of. I can sit there and write like 50 positive things about what I liked about the show, 5 negatives and there's 100% chance I'll be on here arguing those negative things because it's what you geniuses respond to. This was proven today after the show. I had a lot of positives and very few negatives and spent the day arguing about those negatives. You guys know that you can admit that AEW isn't perfect and move on right? The world won't end up if you say something sucked and Cody will still be your friend on Twitter.


I wasn't even talking about you, tbh.

Of course there are some overprotective, annoying af fanboys. Just like every company has btw. But at least they're wasting their time on something they love.
I hate WWE's product, which is why I don't bother watching them nowadays. I think ROH's management is shitty, which is why I gave up on the company. Simple as that. No idea why some users are putting so much energy when obviously they're not a fan of AEW's way of thinking. Cornette is doing that for money & advertising, what's their excuse?


----------



## rbl85 (Nov 21, 2017)

EmbassyForever said:


> I wasn't even talking about you, tbh.
> 
> Of course there are some overprotective, annoying af fanboys. Just like every company has btw. But at least they're wasting their time on something they love.
> I hate WWE's product, which is why I don't bother watching them nowadays. I think ROH's management is shitty, which is why I gave up on the company. Simple as that. No idea why some users are putting so much energy when obviously they're not a fan of AEW's way of thinking. Cornette is doing that for money & advertising, *what's their excuse?*


They will tell that it's because they really want AEW to succeed. XD

Also now i understand why there's not new wrestling fans, peoples who are stranger to wrestling see the supposed fans shitting on wrestling everything single day. Why would you bother trying to watch something when you see the fans saying that it suck ?
The fans are hurting wrestling more than the product is doing it.


----------



## Optikk is All Elite (Sep 5, 2007)

rbl85 said:


> They will tell that it's because they really want AEW to succeed. XD
> 
> Also now i understand why there's not new wrestling fans, peoples who are stranger to wrestling see the supposed fans shitting on wrestling everything single day. Why would you bother trying to watch something when you see the fans saying that it suck ?
> The fans are hurting wrestling more than the product is doing it.


The thing is @Cult03 admitted to trolling. hes not a fan of wrestling for sure.

@El Hammerstone and @Chip Chipperson aren’t all that bad at all. They make very good points.


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

El Hammerstone said:


> For me, it's because AEW's existence brought me back to pro wrestling.


You and me both


----------



## rbl85 (Nov 21, 2017)

optikk sucks said:


> The thing is @Cult03 admitted to trolling. hes not a fan of wrestling for sure.
> 
> @El Hammerstone and @Chip Chipperson aren’t all that bad at all. They make very good points.


I agree for both of them.


----------



## Cult03 (Oct 31, 2016)

optikk sucks said:


> The thing is @Cult03 admitted to trolling. hes not a fan of wrestling for sure.
> 
> @El Hammerstone and @Chip Chipperson aren’t all that bad at all. They make very good points.


You have no shame. There's no level of bullshit you won't stoop to. When the fuck did I admit to trolling? I said that your shitty attempts to act like a parody of me is trolling because you're doing so to get a rise. You're a fucking liar and your attempts to spin things have gone too far.


----------



## Shaun_27 (Apr 12, 2011)

AEW still doesn't have an identity. The identity they tell us is either so vague it is worthless ("an alternative") or outright lies ("sports like product" and "wins and losses matter").


----------



## MoxAsylum (Jan 9, 2020)

reyfan said:


> I tried to give AEW a shot, I was excited at the idea of WWE having true competition, but them pushing failed ex-WWE midcard guys as main events looks just like TNA, why aren't they making Kenny the star of the show? Him and the Bucks are the only known talent they have that WWE hasn't touched, they should be focusing on what they have that WWE doesn't, not just giving any ex-WWE alot of TV time to try and stick it to Vince, if Vince cared about the talent AEW are pushing he wouldn't have let them go to begin with.


I agree with you about Kenny, but the Bucks are terrible


----------



## P Thriller (Jan 6, 2016)

After watching AEW and trying to like it as much as I can I've come to the realization that it basically is just a wrestling alternative, not a BETTER alternative. It really doesn't feel all that different than main roster WWE. The only difference is they haven't lost the trust of their fanbase and their matchups and some characters are fresh. But I have a feeling that after a year when nothing is fresh anymore, it will start to get exposed as being just another mediocre product. I will still watch it before I watch Raw or Smackdown but that isn't saying much. With NXT kind of in a funk right now I'm a bit stuck because no show blows me away.


----------



## Danielallen1410 (Nov 21, 2016)

Chip Chipperson said:


> I know they have their fans here but after the abomination of a show we got this week I genuinely need to point out how much of a clue this company doesn't have. I understand writing 2 hours of TV each week is hard work and that we're in the midst of a pandemic right now but when the same old shit happens week to week it just proves that they don't have a clue what they are doing week to week.
> 
> Reasons:
> 
> ...





Chip Chipperson said:


> I know they have their fans here but after the abomination of a show we got this week I genuinely need to point out how much of a clue this company doesn't have. I understand writing 2 hours of TV each week is hard work and that we're in the midst of a pandemic right now but when the same old shit happens week to week it just proves that they don't have a clue what they are doing week to week.
> 
> Reasons:
> 
> ...


1. Marko stunt as I’ve said before is clearly being played as the little man who won’t back down, just because YOU think he should be acting a different way doesn’t mean the way they are doing it is wrong, it’s just a different direction. Obviously you don’t like Marko (I personally don’t have much of an opinion on him unless I read this forum) so will be biased.

the Moxley stuff is nitpicking for me, he came out when Brodie lee was having his match, maybe brodie Lee wasn’t in the arena when Moxley first arrived? Just an idea.

2. I really enjoy comedy in wrestling howver I do agree they need to tone it down slightly, there’s a little too much for me, however I do enjoy most of the comedy, a matter of taste I suppose.

3. agree on too much wrestling, it’s been a problem from day one, I do think pre pandemic they improved on this considerably, however whilst the arenas empty they cut a lot less promos, I understand this as personally I find it cringe on wwe all these empty arena programs, I think they focused on the tnt tournament and had limited talent during the nightmare factory tapings which meant more wrestling than I’d ideally like.

4.
disagree on Cody, I think his character is one of the best on the show, and i think people are bad repping him due to being in management. He was on the first segment of the show last night then wasn’t seen again, so I’m not sure on the timing of your comment.

5. I don’t pay too much attention


----------



## Rozzop (Aug 26, 2019)

prosperwithdeen said:


> It does suck and its cringe AF but they don't really have much choice honestly. People love him so they gotta push him, especially being that he's already established. The people that mark for Broken Matt far outweigh us who don't want him in the main event scene.


The people that mark for him will watch regardless. Is he bringing any new fans in? 

How about target the millions of fans that have turned their back on wrestling in the last 18 years? 

Thats what I thought AEW would be aiming for.


----------



## MontyCora (Aug 31, 2016)

Rozzop said:


> The people that mark for him will watch regardless. Is he bringing any new fans in?
> 
> How about target the millions of fans that have turned their back on wrestling in the last 18 years?
> 
> Thats what I thought AEW would be aiming for.


Why? Who promised you that?


----------



## domotime2 (Apr 28, 2014)

it's the best wrestling show we got by a billion miles so. I love everything they're doing but admitedly it's just off without fans. 

And so i dont sound like a AEW mark who just loves everything. I'll agree that i am not enjoying Brodie Lee as the exhalted one and i'm not feeling the way they're using Matt Hardy either.


----------



## Rozzop (Aug 26, 2019)

MontyCora said:


> Why? Who promised you that?


Nobody. Makes business sense though, no?


----------



## the_flock (Nov 23, 2016)

Where Marko Stunt is concerned. They should have used him as a little snot faced kid who annoys the hell out of everyone. Have him come out and floss as a distraction to the other team. Use him in a way where it looks like he's going to get his ass kicked and then have him hit a low blow. When he did eventually get a match, have the bigger guy absolutely destroy him, pick him up at a 2 count and then beat on him some more. Until Jungle Boy and Luchasaurus make the save. Have one of the opposite teams launch him in to the 2nd row and have him out injured for several weeks, put him on crutches or something.

Using him in a way where he is getting a lot of offence and getting 2 and 2 and a half counts off people is shambolic storytelling. If you're that desperate to get him over, then create a lightweight division. I have a horrible feeling they are trying to recreate a 123 Kid/X-Pac storyline with him where he ends up getting a surprise victory over one of the top guys or they're going to introduce his brother and they'll be a new tag team. With saying that, he isn't the only problem in AEW. He's just one of the worst.

TNA used Grado perfectly as a comedy character, having him get thrown over the top rope in a battle royal after only just entering the Ring and having an elaborate entrance. If that was AEW, they would have Michael Nakazawa pour baby oil all over himself and eliminate 3 guys. They would have Marko Stunt dodge moves before eliminating 5 guys.


----------



## hardcorewrasslin (Jun 29, 2016)

Lol!


Chip Chipperson said:


> I know they have their fans here but after the abomination of a show we got this week I genuinely need to point out how much of a clue this company doesn't have. I understand writing 2 hours of TV each week is hard work and that we're in the midst of a pandemic right now but when the same old shit happens week to week it just proves that they don't have a clue what they are doing week to week.
> 
> Reasons:
> 
> ...


who let this idiot in here?


----------



## Scissor Me Daddy-O!! (Apr 13, 2011)

Chip Chipperson said:


> I know they have their fans here but after the abomination of a show we got this week I genuinely need to point out how much of a clue this company doesn't have. I understand writing 2 hours of TV each week is hard work and that we're in the midst of a pandemic right now but when the same old shit happens week to week it just proves that they don't have a clue what they are doing week to week.
> 
> Reasons:
> 
> ...


I do feel directly different on most of your views. But, there are some I agree with. 

- things not making sense. This is largely a personal opinion I couldn't argue away from you. It seems more like you didn't like it rather than it not making sense. I don't like Marko not selling getting beat up; I don't like Moxley showing up, but not showing up....till after Brodie's match?. So much of this was done in the Attitude Era, and it's now showing how terrible that era was. It doesn't forgive it being done now. Everything you mentioned in your "doesn't make sense" doesn't have a standard to meet in order to make sense. It's just not well done. Brodie's character is not well done. Kenny's existence is disappointing. Hardy teleportation led to nothing and didn't add to his "magical" presence.

- Comedy. I love comedy wrestling and wish there was a promotion like DDT in America. I think AEW has a perfect mix of legit wrestling versus comedy. Agree to disagree there.

- Cody. I missed a few months and came back to see his new entrance where he comes us to an angelic choir and bright lights......like what? lol. He's borderline Triple H. I think it needs to be this consistent for a while longer, but he's not full Terra Ryzing yet. You take him away from being the owner, we'd only be questioning "why are you booking this guy as a top face when he's only pretty good?". I may agree with you long term.

- too many marks. I don't see that as bad until they start booking themselves to be winners like late WCW. If the Elite are dominating the whole roster for a solid year then I'd agree. But, everyone is happy to be there. 

- Overpushing of WWE guys. If Brodie wins the title, then AEW's first 3 champs are former WWE guys. That's a bad idea. Archer is also not former WWE. The two biggest grabs after Moxley were Hager and Brodie and I've found them bad. So far, it's clear why these guys were let go by WWE. Have to agree here.

Many things you don't like I do like. I don't have a solution for you. It's not been the best AEW for a few weeks.


----------



## the_flock (Nov 23, 2016)

All Elite Wanking said:


> - too many marks. I don't see that as bad until they start booking themselves to be winners like late WCW. If the Elite are dominating the whole roster for a solid year then I'd agree. But, everyone is happy to be there.


The difference is that the likes of Kevin Nash was uber popular during his Wolfpac days. Hogan was arguably the biggest draw in the company. 

The Elite are already putting their own guys over. Both tag team champions so far have been Elite guys. The first womens champion was an Elite person. The woman who dominates everything (Britt) is affiliated with the Elite. Cody dominates everything, as do the Bucks. Heck they created a stable and a dominating storyline just to get Cody's wife over. The 2 guys they are trying to force to the top are Elite guys (MJF and Hangman). 

They haven't thought with their heads at all since the inception, but instead have created a job for the boys.


----------



## Scissor Me Daddy-O!! (Apr 13, 2011)

the_flock said:


> The difference is that the likes of Kevin Nash was uber popular during his Wolfpac days. Hogan was arguably the biggest draw in the company.
> 
> The Elite are already putting their own guys over. Both tag team champions so far have been Elite guys. The first womens champion was an Elite person. The woman who dominates everything (Britt) is affiliated with the Elite. Cody dominates everything, as do the Bucks. Heck they created a stable and a dominating storyline just to get Cody's wife over. The 2 guys they are trying to force to the top are Elite guys (MJF and Hangman).
> 
> They haven't thought with their heads at all since the inception, but instead have created a job for the boys.


I didn't know SCU, Rhio, MJF, or Britt were part of the Elite. That was never expressed on TV. I also thought SCU, MJF, and Britt were great on their own and worthy of what they've done without that knowledge. I don't recall the last time the Bucks won a match. The Nightmare collective lasted about a month before they scrapped it based on negative fan reception - an extremely positive move by the company to listen to the fans.

I'm aware Hangman is part of the Elite. He's also the prototype for "the guy" material and extremely over every show. I've not seen a negative reaction to any of the people or groups you mentioned, at least a negative reaction that wasn't addressed (dropping the Nightmare collective). If those people you mentioned are part of the Elite (I don't think they are), then AEW is being smart in how they book them since they're over.


----------



## Swan-San (May 25, 2019)

I mean the guy entered the arena in a stationary truck, just to rev it up and move about 30 cm's into some trash cans, and that's supposed to garner what response from me? lol ...was I meant to be impressed? shocked? I mean wtf, it's like someone who doesn't know how to make music, making music, you try copy a song you've heard before, don't know how to do it properly but because you made it yourself, you think it's good. Hire some real writers ffs. The show's a mess.

It's also lacking backstage invisible camera's imo, that's a big part of wrestling shows and story development. It can be done without, obviously, but these guys don't know how to write for shit.


----------



## the_flock (Nov 23, 2016)

Swan-San said:


> these guys don't know how to write for shit.


Because they're Indie wrestlers.


----------



## Chan Hung (Dec 28, 2011)

Keep in mind, AEW just opened shop recently folks. And yes, i can't stand Sonny Kiss, Marko Stunt, and some like that, BUT the pros outweigh the cons. You can't say anything about any company of pro wrestling starting their first year as big as AEW has. If you add the financial backing, the TV deal, the acquired talent, year one has been a huge success for AEW. I always said to myself, wait for least 3 years to give a real judgment on AEW. Given that timeframe you can also expect more stars to jump from WWE to AEW but with the focus of AEW to stay with their homegrown stars.

The push of WWE talent like Jericho/Moxley makes sense. You're trying to get your show /product over to the masses so showing them stars that the masses saw makes sense. When you mix in unknowns and give something called 'time' to a fan to adjust, then they become more open to accepting new faces and thus AEW uses WWE stars to get their own stars over.


----------



## Prosper (Mar 25, 2015)

Chip Chipperson said:


> You know you can have an act that is over and loved WITHOUT pushing them to the very top, right?
> 
> For example Hurricane is pretty loved by audiences around the world but the furthest he ever got was the European Title. Matt Hardy could be in the AEW midcard and nobody would be upset about broken Matt not getting a super push.


I mean WWE could do that but AEW can't right now. WWE has pretty much been a billion-dollar mainstream company for the better part of the last 20 years. They can do what they want and be fine. Besides, Hurricane wasn't some notable name that came into WWE. He was essentially homegrown. AEW is still a new company that needs to get as many eyes on their product as possible. Especially now with shit being the way it is. I understand that you don't want Matt Hardy getting this push, I don't either, but I think they need to do what they need to do. Once the Elite vs Inner Circle storyline is over, I HIGHLY DOUBT that Matt Hardy is staying in the main event scene. I would actually bet money on it if I could. And even now, he's in that scene with 9 other guys who are also feuding in the Stadium Stampede match. He may get a 1v1 with Jericho but after that, he will be in TNT Title contention or somewhere in a mid-card feud. The real main event scene in AEW is Jericho, Cody, Omega, PAC, Mox, MJF, Hangman Page, and possibly Archer. Then eventually you'll have homegrown talent like Darby and SG getting transitional reigns. Matt Hardy is just helping the Elite in their feud with IC. I'm almost positive that his main role is to put over younger talent in the long run, but they have to build him up as credible so that when he puts over younger talent, it means something. 



Rozzop said:


> The people that mark for him will watch regardless. Is he bringing any new fans in?
> 
> How about target the millions of fans that have turned their back on wrestling in the last 18 years?
> 
> Thats what I thought AEW would be aiming for.


He's bringing his old curious WWE fans in I'm sure. That could only be about 1000-25,000 people but its something. Especially now when they need it most of all because of the pandemic. Those other millions of fans are gone forever man. WWE killed 75% of the wrestling fanbase and I don't think those people will ever take wrestling seriously again no matter what.


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

domotime2 said:


> it's the best wrestling show we got by a billion miles so. I love everything they're doing but admitedly it's just off without fans.
> 
> And so i dont sound like a AEW mark who just loves everything. I'll agree that i am not enjoying Brodie Lee as the exhalted one and i'm not feeling the way they're using Matt Hardy either.


These are all correct statements for the most part. Most weeks, I love a lot of what they’re doing. I don’t like Moxley acting goofy or Cody dominating the creative storylines, but it is what it is. They’re both faces of the company, so I get that. I even like Brodie Lee, even if I hate them protecting more deserving contenders due to not wanting them to either win OR lose in a crowdless match,

But there is no goddamn reason Matt Hardy should be featured as heavily as he has been. No goddamn reason you should be having Santana and Ortiz wrestle in a squash to Matt Hardy. That you’re forcing one of your top 6 wrestlers in Kenny to be attached to Hardy (because how dare any of the non-WWE heels get over on Matt Hardy in a match) just so the heels can get some offense in is fucking ridiculous.

Someone, ANYONE explain how it isn’t without the typical “well, it’s just FAKE wrestling” response. I know Lucifer isn’t really trying to kill Sam and Dean on Supernatural, but I damn sure appreciate them not reminding me that isn’t really the devil and the show is...JUST A SHOW.


----------



## ObsoleteMule (Sep 4, 2016)

RapShepard said:


> I think hardcore wrestling fans in general are either too hard on wrestling or comically enthusiastic in their hyperbole.


From the amount of hate WWE and AEW get it seems as though alot of us have probably outgrown WWE-style kind of programming. Of course some people bitch just to bitch but there’s obviously something so fundamentally wrong about these shows that alot of hardcore fans seem mostly disappointed by the products AEW and WWE are putting out there.

This is why I can only watch WWE and AEW very sparingly. It literally hurts the brain trying to make sense of the decisions made on these shows now that I’m an adult. I probably would’ve LOVED this shit if I was still a kid.

There’s alot of valid criticism from OP on this post but in the end alot of the dissatisfaction comes from WWE style programs being mostly incompatible with the adult brain. I was hoping AEW would be something that set itself apart but at this point they’re too WWE for my liking


----------



## Death Rider (May 18, 2011)

I started to enjoy wrestling more since leaving this bitch fest of a site. I wonder why? This week's episode was just fine.


----------



## RapShepard (Jun 20, 2014)

ObsoleteMule said:


> From the amount of hate WWE and AEW get it seems as though alot of us have probably outgrown WWE-style kind of programming. Of course some people bitch just to bitch but there’s obviously something so fundamentally wrong about these shows that alot of hardcore fans seem mostly disappointed by the products AEW and WWE are putting out there.
> 
> This is why I can only watch WWE and AEW very sparingly. It literally hurts the brain trying to make sense of the decisions made on these shows now that I’m an adult. I probably would’ve LOVED this shit if I was still a kid.
> 
> There’s alot of valid criticism from OP on this post but in the end alot of the dissatisfaction comes from WWE style programs being mostly incompatible with the adult brain. I was hoping AEW would be something that set itself apart but at this point they’re too WWE for my liking


You really may have just out grown it. But for me I just try to view my entertainment from the stand point of at the end of the day it's still entertainment. Not to say that I don't ever find stupid things, things I don't like or inconsistencies, but no biggie it's just entertainment something I like will probably be up next. Though it is fun to rag on bad and stupid shit to a degree. 

For me after I got out of my "all rap has to be meaningful lyrical miracle rap" I was just able to chill out and enjoy more shit because at the end of the day hey it's just music everything doesn't have to be so serious. 

Like I think the ranking system is stupid and don't like The Dark Order situation. But whatever there's other shit I enjoy like Cody over producing himself and The Best Friends low-key shining in the lockout even with them being in goofy situations like fighting over the the name Best Friends.


----------



## Danielallen1410 (Nov 21, 2016)

bdon said:


> These are all correct statements for the most part. Most weeks, I love a lot of what they’re doing. I don’t like Moxley acting goofy or Cody dominating the creative storylines, but it is what it is. They’re both faces of the company, so I get that. I even like Brodie Lee, even if I hate them protecting more deserving contenders due to not wanting them to either win OR lose in a crowdless match,
> 
> But there is no goddamn reason Matt Hardy should be featured as heavily as he has been. No goddamn reason you should be having Santana and Ortiz wrestle in a squash to Matt Hardy. That you’re forcing one of your top 6 wrestlers in Kenny to be attached to Hardy (because how dare any of the non-WWE heels get over on Matt Hardy in a match) just so the heels can get some offense in is fucking ridiculous.
> 
> Someone, ANYONE explain how it isn’t without the typical “well, it’s just FAKE wrestling” response. I know Lucifer isn’t really trying to kill Sam and Dean on Supernatural, but I damn sure appreciate them not reminding me that isn’t really the devil and the show is...JUST A SHOW.


id agree far more if you didn’t exaggerate by calling Matt hardy winning a squash.


----------



## ObsoleteMule (Sep 4, 2016)

RapShepard said:


> You really may have just out grown it. But for me I just try to view my entertainment from the stand point of at the end of the day it's still entertainment. Not to say that I don't ever find stupid things, things I don't like or inconsistencies, but no biggie it's just entertainment something I like will probably be up next. Though it is fun to rag on bad and stupid shit to a degree.
> 
> For me after I got out of my "all rap has to be meaningful lyrical miracle rap" I was just able to chill out and enjoy more shit because at the end of the day hey it's just music everything doesn't have to be so serious.
> 
> Like I think the ranking system is stupid and don't like The Dark Order situation. But whatever there's other shit I enjoy like Cody over producing himself and The Best Friends low-key shining in the lockout even with them being in goofy situations like fighting over the the name Best Friends.


You have a point... i could just be projecting my feelings onto others. The constant complaining, and calling for guys to literally be fired like in that Janela hate thread kinda points to guys in here having a fundamental issue with today’s wrestling in general. Adult fans are way to into the business side of things for some reason and it ruins their watching experience


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

Danielallen1410 said:


> id agree far more if you didn’t exaggerate by calling Matt hardy winning a squash.


Matt Hardy received 4 punches, a back body drop, and a kick. That’s it. All of Santana and Ortiz’s offense came against “The Best Wrestler in the World” Kenny Omega.

GODDAMN PINEAPPLE PETE GOT MORE OFFENSE ON LECHAMPION IN 60 SECONDS THAN THEY DID ON MATT HARDY!!!

For argument’s sake, Pineapple Pete landed 10-15 punches and 2 splashes into the turnbuckle.


----------



## Danielallen1410 (Nov 21, 2016)

C


bdon said:


> Matt Hardy received 4 punches, a back body drop, and a kick. That’s it. All of Santana and Ortiz’s offense came against “The Best Wrestler in the World” Kenny Omega.
> 
> GODDAMN PINEAPPLE PETE GOT MORE OFFENSE ON LECHAMPION IN 60 SECONDS THAN THEY DID ON MATT HARDY!!!
> 
> For argument’s sake, Pineapple Pete landed 10-15 punches and 2 splashes into the turnbuckle.


i didn’t even notice the above, seems aew is catered more towards fans like me than fans like you.


----------



## 304418 (Jul 2, 2014)

Chip Chipperson said:


> I know they have their fans here but after the abomination of a show we got this week I genuinely need to point out how much of a clue this company doesn't have. I understand writing 2 hours of TV each week is hard work and that we're in the midst of a pandemic right now but when the same old shit happens week to week it just proves that they don't have a clue what they are doing week to week.
> 
> Reasons:
> 
> - Nothing ever makes sense. Marko Stunt gets his ass kicked and returns the next week fine and looking for another ass kicking, Moxley this week arrives at the start of the show absolutely fuming mad but doesn't do anything until the very end of the show, Jericho arguing with a drone multiple times, Hardy teleporting, Hardy changing clothes during a street fight, Kenny "Best In The World" Omega playing with oil on international television, Big monster Brodie Lee becoming a Vince McMahon cult leader knock off, the constant flip flopping of characters, the stories that make no sense it's all just so hard to follow and make sense of.


This is under the era where Mox is world champion. AEW made more sense under the era when Jericho was Le Champion.



> - Comedy. A lot of the AEW fans say to ignore this stuff but how can you? AEW had four weeks of build for a comedy sixty second squash match tonight, last week we had Joey Janela taking Cody Rhodes to his limits, Marko Stunt is a regular fixture of the show despite the fact that he should be nowhere near a wrestling contract, the Inner Circle thugs liking stuffed animals, Kenny fucking around with Nakazawa, Orange Cassidy, The Best Friends it's all just constantly in your face trying to make you giggle at how fake and stupid wrestling is but then in the very next segment they want you to take shit seriously but it's impossible to do so.


AEW is a promotion more suited to the Michael Nakazawa types and caters to the “look wrestling is silly” types, than those that want to see feuds like Omega vs PAC, or Cody vs Jericho, or Young Bucks vs Lucha Bros., or Riho vs Nyla Rose. I agree.

One of the most appealing thing about AEW in the beginning was that it would be high quality, serious wrestling like NJPW. But without the fanbase having to be up at 3AM to watch good wrestling that was both entertaining and made sense, and happened to be in English too (or would use subtitles if necessary) and TV-14. They are squandering these opportunities.



> - Too much wrestling. Give me a hot angle to sink my teeth into. I don't need every match bar squash matches to go over 10 minutes. There was no reason Chris Daniels had to have a lengthy match with Brodie Lee tonight on television, why are main event guys going toe to toe with midcard acts every week? Why is a visibly broken down Matt Hardy having lengthy TV matches? Book people intelligently and book more angles if you're not creative enough to come up with interesting angles on a weekly basis then hire someone who is.


Actually nothing wrong with the wrestling, although AEW could book people more intelligently and book more angles. Let’s not go back to the dark days of Impact 2014 where there were only 4 matches on a 2 hour show that was duller than dishwater. Kthxbye.



> - Cody. I was a fan of Cody for a long time but he is very much the Triple H of AEW. He has his wife all over the show most weeks and getting involved in angles, his brother is in a prominent spot when really he should be opening shows at best, he's got his finger in everything and this week he has Archer and Jake backing away from him despite them both being bad ass heels who don't care. Difference between Cody and Triple H is that Triple H is more talented and Stephanie is more talented than Brandi Rhodes. How cringe was the segment this week when Cody turned up in a truck ready to raise some hell on Hoyt and Roberts? Even further the big special guest in Mike Tyson is of course involved in the Cody segment and not the Moxley match despite the fact Moxley is your World Heavyweight Champion.


Cody turning up in a truck is no different than what Stone Cold used to do, actually. Vehicular mayhem works well in pro wrestling.

And AEW blew their opportunities to have DoN be main evented by either Moxley vs Hager, or Moxley vs Omega (the one year anniversary of the start of their rivalry, too). Even Mox getting a win over PAC a few months ago on Dynamite instead of another time limit draw tainted the possibility of Moxley vs PAC at DoN. So, all that’s left for Tyson to get involved in is Cody vs Archer, since its the only match with heat, and has more heat than Moxley vs Lee.



> - Too many marks in management. I was on Cody's Twitter this morning because someone posted one of his tweets here and he posted the Mike Tyson video of him preparing for a return to boxing with shifty eyes. I thought to myself "Oh, Tyson is probably going to turn up in AEW soon" only for it to be announced this week that he's in. Not everything has to be a fucking tease on your social media to pump fans up you are allowed to let shit happen on TV like it's supposed to. Kenny, Khan and The Bucks are all just as guilty as well.


The WWE influence is strong here. Not with the Tyson appearance, but with the need to spoil his appearance. Note to Cody, Khan, Young Bucks and Omega: you are allowed to keep your wrestling surprises hidden until the actual show. WWE did that for years with the Attitude Era (its most popular era in recent memory), and they just did it over the last month with Becky Lynch’s pregnancy. Heck, AEW did that on the premiere episode of Dynamite with Jake Hager’s appearance. Believe or not, wrestling fans actually like being surprised. Don’t let what WWE has been doing in general over the last decade fool you just because of how much profit they make, since that company is also publicly traded and an established brand with a solid fanbase.



> - Overpushing of WWE guys. I don't mind guys like Cody (Within reason), Moxley, Archer and younger WWE guys coming in but why is Matt Hardy in 2020 running off your top heel faction (Armed with bats mind you) and getting a considerable amount of TV time? Why is a near 40 year old Brodie Lee your top heel despite only debuting about a month ago? Why is Hager involved in anything?


Yes, it is a problem that ex-WWE talents (minus PAC, of course) are regularly in AEW world title contention, when Omega, Pentagon, and Fenix (and technically Daniels, although he old now) have all proven themselves as main event talents and world champions elsewhere on the globe.

And IDK why Brodie Lee is the top heel other that typical AEW hotshotting.



> Interested in your views.


Interested in your response.


----------



## Gazbear (Oct 16, 2017)

If you dont like it that much then dont watch it, simples.


----------



## Danielallen1410 (Nov 21, 2016)

Gazbear said:


> If you dont like it that much then dont watch it, simples.


It really is this simple, I get it if someone who likes the show in general comes on with a few complaints, but when you clearly don’t like the show why keep putting yourself through it? No ones annoyed by someone not likping aew, just annoyed at the need to constantly tell people he doesn’t like it.


----------



## RapShepard (Jun 20, 2014)

ObsoleteMule said:


> You have a point... i could just be projecting my feelings onto others. The constant complaining, and calling for guys to literally be fired like in that Janela hate thread kinda points to guys in here having a fundamental issue with today’s wrestling in general. Adult fans are way to into the business side of things for some reason and it ruins their watching experience


I don't think you're projecting all that much at all. Some folk clearly do hate watch and some clearly do want a product that feels more adult friendly. I think the former is weird, but the latter is just a preference and that's fair.


----------



## Danielallen1410 (Nov 21, 2016)

RapShepard said:


> I don't think you're projecting all that much at all. Some folk clearly do hate watch and some clearly do want a product that feels more adult friendly. I think the former is weird, but the latter is just a preference and that's fair.


Fake sports aren’t going to be adult friendly in general though, apart From the attitude era wrestling has Always been full of comedy etc and been a but stupid, I like it that way.


----------



## One Shed (Jan 7, 2014)

Danielallen1410 said:


> Fake sports aren’t going to be adult friendly in general though, apart From the attitude era wrestling has Always been full of comedy etc and been a but stupid, I like it that way.


See, comments like this explain so much how people forgive the dumb stuff AEW does. I mean, it is supposed to be stupid right? Only kids would like it? Wait, 80 year old women used to bring knives to shows in the 70's and 80's? I thought it was just clowns play fighting?!? Just how ignorant of wrestling history are you? Let me guess, you are a Cena fan?


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

Lheurch said:


> See, comments like this explain so much how people forgive the dumb stuff AEW does. I mean, it is supposed to be stupid right? Only kids would like it? Wait, 80 year old women used to bring knives to shows in the 70's and 80's? I thought it was just clowns play fighting?!? Just how ignorant of wrestling history are you? Let me guess, you are a Cena fan?


I swear some of the comments I read, not this person in particular just the general audience, seem to be so young they don’t remember a time when people of all walks of life and social class LOVED wrestling.


----------



## El Hammerstone (Jan 11, 2020)

bdon said:


> I swear some of the comments I read, not this person in particular just the general audience, seem to be so young they don’t remember a time when people of all walks of life and social class LOVED wrestling.


Seriously. You say you were away from wrestling for two decades, so maybe you can relate to this, but I was away for around 7-8 years myself and it wasn't until I had walked away and invested myself in other things that it really hit me just how irrelevant pro wrestling was to the common masses; I swear, outside of a couple of occasions early in my hiatus, where I was asked if I still watched it, wrestling never once came up in conversation, and I've been around a wide variety of people with varying interests over the years. These days, you find the guy in public hearing a helmet and water wings, and he's almost guaranteed to be a wrestling fan.


----------



## Danielallen1410 (Nov 21, 2016)

Lheurch said:


> See, comments like this explain so much how people forgive the dumb stuff AEW does. I mean, it is supposed to be stupid right? Only kids would like it? Wait, 80 year old women used to bring knives to shows in the 70's and 80's? I thought it was just clowns play fighting?!? Just how ignorant of wrestling history are you? Let me guess, you are a Cena fan?


nope not a cena fan, I loved the new generation wwe and the attitude era.

nowadays I just watch wrestling casually, its just a casual thing to watch for me that I enjoy, I like the mix, I like a good high flying match, I like a technical match, I like a brawl, and I like comedy segments. I feel aew ticks most of these boxes....it does at times have overkill on each of these things though. First few months too much high flying matches, now there’s too much comedy. They need someone to help them produce the shows.

however i dont understand why anyone watches wrestling wanting an adult product, the only adult products are indys that are indys for a reason and new japan where their culture takes wrestling seriously.... get over it, You might want a serious adult wrestling product, but the majority go to actual fighting if they want realistic adult products...... try and think of one person you know whos never watched wrestling who you think you could persuade to like it? even with an adult themed product...they just won’t.

my suggestion to anyone wanting an adult themed serious wrestling product is watch new Japan....you won’t get it from a mainstream US wrestling company.


----------



## Danielallen1410 (Nov 21, 2016)

bdon said:


> I swear some of the comments I read, not this person in particular just the general audience, seem to be so young they don’t remember a time when people of all walks of life and social class LOVED wrestling.


im 33, I remember these times, but I also have the awareness to know most have moved on, I havea large group of friends who all watched wrestling as teenagers, two of us do now.


----------



## El Hammerstone (Jan 11, 2020)

Most come back with the claim that "this is just the way wrestling is now, and that we need to live with that fact", which would be a fair point if the overall interest in pro wrestling weren't at an all time low (with no signs of the tide shifting); clearly the fans who gradually left in droves over the years didn't really see what was happening in the industry as a natural progression. It may be the way it is now, but it didn't 'progress' to this point.


----------



## Danielallen1410 (Nov 21, 2016)

El Hammerstone said:


> Most come back with the claim that "this is just the way wrestling is now, and that we need to live with that fact", which would be a fair point if the overall interest in pro wrestling weren't at an all time low (with no signs of the tide shifting); clearly the fans who gradually left in droves over the years didn't really see what was happening in the industry as a natural progression. It may be the way it is now, but it didn't 'progress' to this point.


but my point is there is literally nothing wrestling can do to get people interested like they used to be, it just isn’t popular,

fans left because they grew up, most fans in the boom period were 18-30, then they stopped watching because they got older, wwe catered itself to kids to keep them going after that, now those kids are growing up their Viewers have dropped.

Wrestling has had its day like a lot of things. Now it’s a niche product, people need to accept that instead of being desperate for something that is never going to happen.

seriously how many viewers a week would you say is a good number? 2 million?

ok tell me how aew are going to attract that? They just aren’t unless they take all of wwes viewers, people who don’t watch wrestling only know wwe. There is no one who doesn’t like wrestling who is going to suddenly decide to watch it, it just won’t happen.

the only way they do numbers like that is to become a child friendly product, you can 100 per cent get kids interested in wrestling, but then most of their hardcore audience would hate it.

also most people who watch wrestling are geeks like us, they Stream it on streaming sites, they likely don’t even have cable boxes, over here in uk we are all using dodgy boxes etc to watch content, so numbers will never truly reflect who’s watching anyway, I’m sure it’s the same in the US

they might aswell just accept being in the 600-900k a week range, most enjoy it, it might grow a small amount, if I were aew is just enjoy being an alternative.


----------



## PavelGaborik (Oct 30, 2015)

I don't get the posters in here acting as if Cody has been losing too much. 

The company has been putting on shows for a year now - Has Cody lost ONE singles match without fuckery involved? I genuinely can't remember him losing one singles match clean off the top of my head.


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

El Hammerstone said:


> Seriously. You say you were away from wrestling for two decades, so maybe you can relate to this, but I was away for around 7-8 years myself and it wasn't until I had walked away and invested myself in other things that it really hit me just how irrelevant pro wrestling was to the common masses; I swear, outside of a couple of occasions early in my hiatus, where I was asked if I still watched it, wrestling never once came up in conversation, and I've been around a wide variety of people with varying interests over the years. These days, you find the guy in public hearing a helmet and water wings, and he's almost guaranteed to be a wrestling fan.


My love died the minute I seen Shane McMahon on my show. I popped in maybe once every year or two to see what Sting was doing, didn’t have a clue who the fuck those guys were, and would pop back out just as quickly.

And you’re right. Wrestling conversations do not come up. I bring them up as much as I can without being annoying, hoping to spread the word of AEW that MOST people have not heard about, talking up the match quality. I do my part living in WV where there is a fan base dying to love pro wrestling again.

AEW shows glimpses of what it can be...then they pull shit like last night and look just like WWE.


----------



## ObsoleteMule (Sep 4, 2016)

Danielallen1410 said:


> nope not a cena fan, I loved the new generation wwe and the attitude era.
> 
> nowadays I just watch wrestling casually, its just a casual thing to watch for me that I enjoy, I like the mix, I like a good high flying match, I like a technical match, I like a brawl, and I like comedy segments. I feel aew ticks most of these boxes....it does at times have overkill on each of these things though. First few months too much high flying matches, now there’s too much comedy. They need someone to help them produce the shows.
> 
> ...


You explained it perfectly. This is what I’ve been trying to get at. The way pro-wrestling is presented by the two biggest North American companies (WWE and AEW) just doesnt sit quite right with the adult brain. Its almost like how people get pissed about the mere existence of alot of pop music... its not really meant to be this deep thought provoking genre. Its just mindless fun. I feel the same way about AEW and WWE. They are like pop music or McDonald’s simply there to please the masses.

Once you realize that, its alot easier to either shut up and enjoy or just tune the shit out completely.


----------



## One Shed (Jan 7, 2014)

Danielallen1410 said:


> nope not a cena fan, I loved the new generation wwe and the attitude era.
> 
> nowadays I just watch wrestling casually, its just a casual thing to watch for me that I enjoy, I like the mix, I like a good high flying match, I like a technical match, I like a brawl, and I like comedy segments. I feel aew ticks most of these boxes....it does at times have overkill on each of these things though. First few months too much high flying matches, now there’s too much comedy. They need someone to help them produce the shows.
> 
> ...


Obviously, no one I know now who does not watch would want to. That is my entire point. There is excuse, after excuse, after excuse for the dumb. There WAS a time when adults tuned in and became fans. Many times in fact. Saying no one will ever present a product people will take seriously is ignorant of history and just a built in excuse for doing dumb stuff in my opinion. I do not watch a Disney cartoon movie expecting it to be a Scorsese mob drama. Wrestling should not be a clown show aimed at making a ten year old who has had brain damage laugh.


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

PavelGaborik said:


> I don't get the posters in here acting as if Cody has been losing too much.
> 
> The company has been putting on shows for a year now - Has Cody lost ONE singles match without fuckery involved? I genuinely can't remember him losing one singles match clean off the top of my head.


Serious question: has there been one instance of a guy who made his name in WWE losing to someone who made their name elsewhere?

Pac apparently wrestled in WWE, was he a big deal, though? Outside of him...I can’t think of one.


----------



## One Shed (Jan 7, 2014)

Danielallen1410 said:


> but my point is there is literally nothing wrestling can do to get people interested like they used to be, it just isn’t popular,
> 
> fans left because they grew up, most fans in the boom period were 18-30, then they stopped watching because they got older, wwe catered itself to kids to keep them going after that, now those kids are growing up their Viewers have dropped.
> 
> ...


What an amazingly ignorant post. No way a TV show or movie could come along and be bigger than classics from decades ago. Film makers should just give up and be happy to break even. I mean, the top movies are all rated G or PG right?? No way anyone would ever pay to see an R rated movie about Deadpool. The straight up ignorance here is breathtaking honestly.


----------



## Danielallen1410 (Nov 21, 2016)

Lheurch said:


> What an amazingly ignorant post. No way a TV show or movie could come along and be bigger than classics from decades ago. Film makers should just give up and be happy to break even. I mean, the top movies are all rated G or PG right?? No way anyone would ever pay to see an R rated movie about Deadpool. The straight up ignorance here is breathtaking honestly.


ok come on then,

dissect each paragraph and tell me your counter argument.

movies is a stupid comparison, everyone watches movies, hardly anyone watches wrestling.


----------



## El Hammerstone (Jan 11, 2020)

Danielallen1410 said:


> but my point is there is literally nothing wrestling can do to get people interested like they used to be, it just isn’t popular, it’s had its day like a lot of things. Now it’s a niche product, people need to accept that instead of being desperate for something that is never going to happen.
> 
> seriously how many viewers a week would you say is a good number? 2 million?
> 
> ok tell me how aew are going to attract that? They just aren’t unless they take all of wwes viewers, people who don’t watch wrestling only know wwe. There is no one who doesn’t like wrestling who is going to suddenly decide to watch it, it just won’t happen.


Strong writing with innovative storytelling that doesn't insult the viewer's intelligence (imagine if wrestling were written like Breaking Bad or the Wire but adapted to fit the wrestling landscape); great characters that can demand emotional investment whether it be love or hate; CONSISTENCY, because this will not be an overnight fix, as a new generation of fans will need to be molded due to the fact that wrestling has simply sucked for so long now. This is a long term fix but it absolutely can be done. 

People who don't watch have preconceived notions of what pro wrestling is, and whether they watch WWE or AEW, they are going to get what they expect, the problem is that they are not interested in that or else they would be watching already. If the industry is just going to show zero ambition and concede defeat, then they are just wasting everyone's time.


----------



## One Shed (Jan 7, 2014)

Danielallen1410 said:


> ok come on then,
> 
> dissect each paragraph and tell me your counter argument.
> 
> movies is a stupid comparison, everyone watches movies, hardly anyone watches wrestling.


Are you really not getting this? WHY does hardly anyone watch wrestling today? Hardly anyone watches The Simpsons today. Does that mean that show always sucked and no one ever took it seriously and a ton of people would not watch it if it were presented in a better way?


----------



## One Shed (Jan 7, 2014)

Danielallen1410 said:


> ok come on then,
> 
> dissect each paragraph and tell me your counter argument.
> 
> movies is a stupid comparison, everyone watches movies, hardly anyone watches wrestling.


OK, easy



Danielallen1410 said:


> but my point is there is literally nothing wrestling can do to get people interested like they used to be, it just isn’t popular,


Decades of 20th century history proves this point incorrect.



Danielallen1410 said:


> fans left because they grew up, most fans in the boom period were 18-30, then they stopped watching because they got older, wwe catered itself to kids to keep them going after that, now those kids are growing up their Viewers have dropped.


You seem to live in a world where humans do not reproduce. Even if only kids watched it, there are more kids alive today than 20 years ago. What evidence do you have that the primary reason people stopped watching was because they got older? What nonsense is this??



Danielallen1410 said:


> Wrestling has had its day like a lot of things. Now it’s a niche product, people need to accept that instead of being desperate for something that is never going to happen.


Of course this is exactly opposite of how every business works. The guys who made super hero movies in the 70's and 80's should have just accepted that genre was played out and would never work in the 21st century.



Danielallen1410 said:


> seriously how many viewers a week would you say is a good number? 2 million?


You only need to look at viewership ratings for shows in general to know what is good and what is great.



Danielallen1410 said:


> ok tell me how aew are going to attract that? They just aren’t unless they take all of wwes viewers, people who don’t watch wrestling only know wwe. There is no one who doesn’t like wrestling who is going to suddenly decide to watch it, it just won’t happen.


Present a good and serious product. Were you born a fan of every sport and subject matter you are a fan of? Oh, you mean something happened that made you become a fan of something?? Imagine THAT!



Danielallen1410 said:


> the only way they do numbers like that is to become a child friendly product, you can 100 per cent get kids interested in wrestling, but then most of their hardcore audience would hate it.


Again, NO. All of the history of sports and entertainment disagrees with you.



Danielallen1410 said:


> also most people who watch wrestling are geeks like us, they Stream it on streaming sites, they likely don’t even have cable boxes, over here in uk we are all using dodgy boxes etc to watch content, so numbers will never truly reflect who’s watching anyway, I’m sure it’s the same in the US


This affects EVERY form of TV, not just wrestling. You can compare merch numbers and ticket sales easily to products in the past to see how numbers have declined. Ratings are not the only metric.



Danielallen1410 said:


> they might aswell just accept being in the 600-900k a week range, most enjoy it, it might grow a small amount, if I were aew is just enjoy being an alternative.


I hope you never start a business. You seem thrilled at being mediocre.


----------



## Danielallen1410 (Nov 21, 2016)

Lheurch said:


> Are you really not getting this? WHY does hardly anyone watch wrestling today? Hardly anyone watches The Simpsons today. Does that mean that show always sucked and no one ever took it seriously and a ton of people would not watch it if it were presented in a better way?


no, I never said wrestling has ever sucked, I said it’s not really changed, the viewers just gave, mich like the simpsons, good analogy.


----------



## One Shed (Jan 7, 2014)

Danielallen1410 said:


> no, I never said wrestling has ever sucked, I said it’s not really changed, the viewers just gave, mich like the simpsons, good analogy.


But the whole point is it HAS changed, just like The Simpsons. Create a compelling product, and an audience will come. Evidence: all of entertainment history.


----------



## Danielallen1410 (Nov 21, 2016)

Lheurch said:


> OK, easy
> 
> 
> Decades of 20th century history proves this point incorrect.
> ...


.


----------



## Danielallen1410 (Nov 21, 2016)

Lheurch said:


> But the whole point is it HAS changed, just like The Simpsons. Create a compelling product, and an audience will come. Evidence: all of entertainment history.


what can be done now that is new and compelling that would get 1 million new viewers?


----------



## shandcraig (Mar 23, 2008)

I dont know if its lack of crowd but his gimmick is not working out it was in tna when it was good


----------



## DaSlacker (Feb 9, 2020)

Danielallen1410 said:


> what can be done now that is new and compelling that would get 1 million new viewers?


Difficult to say because AEW has been forced into a head-to-head war and then encountered the biggest global pandemic since 1918. But I do think they could have held on to and grown slightly from that 1.1 million the first three episodes averaged.

It really just needed somebody to tighten everything up so it felt more organic: 

Dark Order, apart from the cool videos.
Brandi told to fuck off.
Joey Janela, Michael Nakazawa, Orange Cassidy and Marko Stunt never ever used in competitive matches on TNT.
Not trying to NJPW the results, i.e every match ends in a pinfall or submission. Or at least explain fully why this is so the referees don't seem so ineffective.
Having a security team at least try to break up the random brawls to give more authenticity.
Stats could have been used better.
Cheesy stuff like Lance Archer attacking random crew members could be booked better.
Matt Hardy told no, no, no to Broken Matt being used in matches. 
Generally a stronger emphasis on realism and psychology in matches.

Wouldn't be new but should make it more compelling. As WWE completely lost the plot and went all 1960's Batman meets Batman and Robin (1997) . AEW should have gone Batman Begins meets The Dark Knight.


----------



## The Raw Smackdown (Jan 8, 2017)

Danielallen1410 said:


> what can be done now that is new and compelling that would get 1 million new viewers?


Nothing. 

No matter what happens in wrestling. It's gonna say niche. Just becasue it was popular once doesn't mean it can be popular again.


----------



## Cult03 (Oct 31, 2016)

Danielallen1410 said:


> but my point is there is literally nothing wrestling can do to get people interested like they used to be, it just isn’t popular,
> 
> fans left because they grew up, most fans in the boom period were 18-30, then they stopped watching because they got older, wwe catered itself to kids to keep them going after that, now those kids are growing up their Viewers have dropped.
> 
> ...


That's such a defeatist attitude. Also wanting wrestling companies to be better doesn't necessarily mean we want the business to be booming again. Wrestling might not ever get huge again but they can at least try. And if not they should try to keep the fans they still have left by not pissing in our pocket and telling us "this is good" when it's quite obviously not. The reason it's not good anymore is because parents gave WWE money for Cena so they kept pushing him and people continue to watch and claim "Nakazawa and Stunt are draws". Just be fucking better, it's not difficult. 

Cody needs to be head booker for everyone and book them all like he'd book himself. Tell the wrestlers to take it seriously so the fans can too. Get them acting lessons, personal trainers and bring in someone who understands in ring psychology to teach them that everything they do in the ring needs a reason. Also there's so much actual Elite talent out there that would actually make their product look better. 

The product doesn't have to be serious, the wrestlers just have to take it seriously. Comedy works in wrestling when it's actually funny. They also wink at the camera way too often. Arguments aside, we can all admit that AEW can be better right?


----------



## Mister Sinister (Aug 7, 2013)

Crocodile tears. A thread shitting on AEW because they exist during a pandemic and protected their talent by not requiring them to fly in from all over the country for tapings.
OP: Here is a bunch of shit that 99.9% of the audience doesn't see when watching. I know everything about wrestling but can't wrap my head around Matt Hardy or Mike Tyson being a big name or know that the WWF's late 90s main event roster was mostly ex-WCW guys or that the "ex-WWE" stars (Hall and Nash) that WCW signed were ex-WCW guys before they were ex-WWE.

Everybody has worked somewhere else before. Stop this 12-year old idiocy.


----------



## IronMan8 (Dec 25, 2015)

Chip Chipperson said:


> - Too much wrestling.


This is the only point I strongly agree with.

I like most things about AEW, just not the wrestling.

Too much + too fake (no-selling kicks to the head, jobbers kicking out of Kenny’s finisher...)

I remember Fenix no-selling a snap dragon suplex from Kenny.

Therefore, snap dragon suplexes don’t hurt at all.

So why does the next guy a week later stay down for 10 seconds? Is he weak? Is the other guy insanely strong? Why does he sell other moves and not that one?

Why do some wrestlers get kicked in the face, then... turn their back on their opponent, do a somersault away, then turn around and throw a punch? Does that make the punch more effective? Then why didn’t the other guy sell?

I can live with the rest of the flaws, but for now I need to fast forward 80% of the matches. I look forward to each episode doing this.

I can turn a blind eye for Matt Hardy, because I like the characters and stories. The drone is fine for me because I’m being asked to play along, and I’m willing to do so because it’s fun and I know the characters involved. However, I would prefer if unbelievable stuff is technically all about mind games and deep down the characters are completely away of what they’re doing. I think that’s the allowance I make for them that is never confirmed nor denied that would make it make sense from a serious perspective.


----------



## Geeee (Aug 9, 2010)

Matt Hardy didn't chase off the Inner Circle. The Inner Circle left him to grieve Vanguard 1. In this case they were engaging in mental warfare, not physical warfare


----------



## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

People discussing what could bring people back to wrestling I genuinely believe WWE has a lock on the kids and families market so just like Eric Bischoff did in 1995 you have to set out to be different. This doesn't mean knocking off what he did but you could certainly borrow elements from WWE's "Attitude Era", ECW and Nitro's run at the top of the wrestling world.

Imagine an AEW Dynamite looking like this:

- Realistic approach - No guys throwing oil at one another but instead Jericho's thugs kicking the shit out of Matt Hardy backstage and busting him open, Moxley instead of angrily walking backstage and then hanging out backstage for the whole show lets see him attacking people backstage in search of Brodie, breaking things, interrupting matches and kicking ass to call Brodie out, if we're going to still do comedy (Which is fine if done properly) lets see situations away from the wrestling arena such as The Inner Circle at a club living the high life and being pricks to the wait staff, lets see Guevara at a high end strip club (Obviously no nudity but make it work) absolutely going mental over it as the "geeky" member of IC who has seen an unclothed woman for one of the first times, lets get layers to the characters and explain things such as why Jungle Boy the son of a movie star is dressing up like he lives in the jungle, lets actually get away from those jungle type gimmicks and give guys realistic characters that people can actually relate to. I understand stuff away from the wrestling arena can't be done right now but the rest of it can.

- Make the matches punchy and to the point. Not every match needs 10-15 minutes to resonate and as a matter of fact it sometimes makes them worse. The Hardy/Omega tag from this week would've been way better if it was shorter as would Kazarian Vs Moxley from last week. I think they could really do well with having a good mix of styles on display as well because it seems like everyone is just a good athlete no psychology type of wrestler. I really enjoyed that street fight from last weeks episode because how often do you see a good solid brawl in AEW? Barely ever.

- Build to your gimmick matches. AEW has TNA syndrome here where they just randomly throw stipulations and gimmicks without build on TV or PPV for no real reason. For example, why was Dustin's career on the line randomly one week but not anymore? The street fight as good as it was probably should've just been a normal tag match with some craziness to build to the violent match on PPV. Best Friends fought Kip Sabian and Jimmy Havoc in a no disqualification match on free TV for no reason other than they brawled the week before on TV. Build to these big matches just like you did with Hager/Moxley instead of randomly throwing them onto shows.

- Build your stories. Give me a reason to care about your roster. You spend 4 weeks building Jericho/Pete on TV and it was all just a waste of time. Cody/Dustin throwing in the towel angle has been forgotten about to do Archer/Cody on TV, where was Cody last week on TV after his Mrs copped a beatdown? I know they said he was too far away to directly interrupt it but why couldn't we have come back from commercial to a passionate promo from Cody? Brodie/Moxley has just been thrown together like a bad chicken sandwich and despite watching weekly I can't tell you why Hardy and Jericho hate one another enough to want to kill one another on the upcoming PPV.

I think AEW also really struggles much like TNA did to give the people a reason to tune in next week. What reason do I have to tune in next week to Dynamite? There is very rarely a hook or continuation of something that happened the last week




hardcorewrasslin said:


> Lol!
> 
> 
> who let this idiot in here?


"This person disagrees with me therefore he must be an idiot"

Logical.



El Hammerstone said:


> Seriously. You say you were away from wrestling for two decades, so maybe you can relate to this, but I was away for around 7-8 years myself and it wasn't until I had walked away and invested myself in other things that it really hit me just how irrelevant pro wrestling was to the common masses; I swear, outside of a couple of occasions early in my hiatus, where I was asked if I still watched it, wrestling never once came up in conversation, and I've been around a wide variety of people with varying interests over the years. These days, you find the guy in public hearing a helmet and water wings, and he's almost guaranteed to be a wrestling fan.


Only person in the past few years I've come across who likes wrestling was the maintenance man in his seventies at my job who was a big WWE fan for like 25 years. He was your traditional "casual fan" and mentioned to me once Dean Ambrose randomly disappearing. I said he wrestled for AEW now and his response was "What's AEW?"

Was interesting chatting wrestling with him. He certainly did point out stupid stuff despite the narrative generally being that the casuals don't care about the stupid stuff.




Mister Sinister said:


> Crocodile tears. A thread shitting on AEW because they exist during a pandemic and protected their talent by not requiring them to fly in from all over the country for tapings.
> OP: Here is a bunch of shit that 99.9% of the audience doesn't see when watching. I know everything about wrestling but can't wrap my head around Matt Hardy or Mike Tyson being a big name or know that the WWF's late 90s main event roster was mostly ex-WCW guys or that the "ex-WWE" stars (Hall and Nash) that WCW signed were ex-WCW guys before they were ex-WWE.
> 
> Everybody has worked somewhere else before. Stop this 12-year old idiocy.


AEW was like this before COVID-19 as well lets not pretend my complaints only relate to the past 2 months or so of TV. Also, I don't think I ever shit on them for not flying their talent from around the country in. Could you point out where I did that, please?

Mike Tyson is a huge name and I said as much in the Dynamite thread my question is why he's involved in the midcard title match instead of the main event? The reasoning is pretty much perfect imagine Moxley cutting a passionate promo about The Dark Order and how they can do whatever they want at the PPV and can bring whoever he wants because he has THIS MAN watching his back. Cut to the recently viral video of Tyson punching away at the bag and then into a 20 second promo (From home) where he says he's been watching Dynamite, he's disgusted by Brodie Lee and he's evening the odds up in the main event of the PPV. We end the show with Moxley looking all pumped up and pleased with himself whilst Brodie seems a tad concerned about the PPV. Right there you have a surprise with an international celebrity, you get your brand over (Mike Tyson says he's watching so if he is you better as well) plus you get your main event over and your top babyface over because a legend of boxing wants to back him up on PPV. Winners everywhere. Instead we've got Tyson involved in the Cody angle which makes zero sense and does nothing for anybody in typical AEW fashion.

In regards to Matt Hardy he isn't really that big of a name. He's the less popular member of the Hardy Boys doing a gimmick that makes no sense and was somewhat popular 4 years ago in TNA. Yeah, he still has fans and is a good veteran to have around because he can teach the new guys a lot but he's definitely not a main event guy in 2020 anywhere except mid range to low range independents. By the way, watching Matt Hardy last night his body is clearly starting to break down and he hasn't got much longer left anyway it's not good to see a guy main eventing who is struggling to move due to injury or general wear and tear.

Nobody has ever said that signing guys from the WWE is wrong it's just their choice of guys. They clearly have no idea what to do with Brodie Lee so why sign him? Brodie could be making big money in Japan and doing indy shots for a couple thousand bucks a match instead he's doing a Mr. McMahon gimmick in AEW. Same with Matt Hardy, no clue what to do with him so let him do what he wants and let him main event. Same with Moxley, they have him but have no idea who he is or what he should be doing so he sways back and forth week to week between being an old school babyface, a bad ass Stone Cold knock off and a crazy psychopath who likes pain. The only WWE guys they've used really well are Jericho (Who they are also trying to kill off since he has lost the belt) and PAC. Millions of dollars in talent that AEW doesn't know how to use.


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

They aren’t trying to kill off Jericho since losing the belt. He is the one coming up with these Bubbly Bunch skits and things like that. We can blame Kenny for his shit, and we can blame Jericho for his.


----------



## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

bdon said:


> They aren’t trying to kill off Jericho since losing the belt. He is the one coming up with these Bubbly Bunch skits and things like that. We can blame Kenny for his shit, and we can blame Jericho for his.


Someone is giving Jericho the thumbs up though. For example, if I were in charge of AEW and I had Chris Jericho approach me and say "Hey, I want to do these Bubbly Bunch segments here is what I have in mind" I'd give him a respectful and polite no.

Same with Kenny's stupid stuff.


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

Chip Chipperson said:


> Someone is giving Jericho the thumbs up though. For example, if I were in charge of AEW and I had Chris Jericho approach me and say "Hey, I want to do these Bubbly Bunch segments here is what I have in mind" I'd give him a respectful and polite no.
> 
> Same with Kenny's stupid stuff.


Fair enough. I’ve said the same. They are really lacking leadership.


----------



## MontyCora (Aug 31, 2016)

You folks saying "imagine if AEW was realistic in tone!!!" are just plain old straight-up fan fictioning another promotion.

Go watch NXT. Why aren't you watching that show? It's a lot less silly.


----------



## Cult03 (Oct 31, 2016)

Chip Chipperson said:


> Someone is giving Jericho the thumbs up though. For example, if I were in charge of AEW and I had Chris Jericho approach me and say "Hey, I want to do these Bubbly Bunch segments here is what I have in mind" I'd give him a respectful and polite no.
> 
> Same with Kenny's stupid stuff.


Jericho probably gets enough leeway to be given the benefit of the doubt when he brings ideas to the table. I would have said absolutely, then when the video was sent in I would have told him that it's shit and not going on my tv show


----------



## Cult03 (Oct 31, 2016)

MontyCora said:


> You folks saying "imagine if AEW was realistic in tone!!!" are just plain old straight-up fan fictioning another promotion.
> 
> Go watch NXT. Why aren't you watching that show? It's a lot less silly.


If you want comedy why don't you go watch a Netflix special? Goes both ways. They can do comedy but they aren't doing it well enough to continue in the route.


----------



## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

MontyCora said:


> You folks saying "imagine if AEW was realistic in tone!!!" are just plain old straight-up fan fictioning another promotion.
> 
> Go watch NXT. Why aren't you watching that show? It's a lot less silly.


AEW has more stars which keeps me interested. I grew up on Jericho, Dustin, Billy Gunn, Matt Hardy, Jim Ross, Tony Schiavone, Taz etc so it's cool to see them every week on TV. NXT has Charlotte who I don't really care about and Finn Balor who I've been following since 2005 or so but have no interest in either.



Cult03 said:


> If you want comedy why don't you go watch a Netflix special? Goes both ways. They can do comedy but they aren't doing it well enough to continue in the route.


Yeah, this is where I think a lot of the AEW "fanboys" are incorrect about the AEW "haters". I like some comedy in wrestling as do most of the "haters" I'm sure but AEW is doing horribly at the comedy. 

I used to love when Jericho would come out on TV and call people names, put Stephanie McMahon on blast each week and I put The Rock up there as one of the greatest of all time on the mic despite the fact he did a heap of comedy segments and sketches. Comedy isn't the problem it's how the comedy is done.


----------



## ObsoleteMule (Sep 4, 2016)

MontyCora said:


> You folks saying "imagine if AEW was realistic in tone!!!" are just plain old straight-up fan fictioning another promotion.
> 
> Go watch NXT. Why aren't you watching that show? It's a lot less silly.


It all kind of makes sense now... its apparent that alot of the complainers on here deeply want to be bookers or run their own promotion. “Either make the show how I see fit or it sucks!”

Some of you are asking for entirely too much. Its like adopting a dog and getting mad because the dog cant fly. Holy shit


----------



## MontyCora (Aug 31, 2016)

ObsoleteMule said:


> It all kind of makes sense now... its apparent that alot of the complainers on here deeply want to be bookers or run their own promotion. “Either make the show how I see fit or it sucks!”
> 
> Some of you are asking for entirely too much. Its like adopting a dog and getting mad because the dog cant fly. Holy shit


The criticisms of the humor of AEW strike me as kind of goofy. Should we start posting examples of average Attitude Era humor segments to prove a point? Cause I don't want to see that fucking bullshit. I'll take AEW kind of funny humor all day every day over that rose tinted glasses crap.


----------



## shandcraig (Mar 23, 2008)

Cult03 said:


> That's such a defeatist attitude. Also wanting wrestling companies to be better doesn't necessarily mean we want the business to be booming again. Wrestling might not ever get huge again but they can at least try. And if not they should try to keep the fans they still have left by not pissing in our pocket and telling us "this is good" when it's quite obviously not. The reason it's not good anymore is because parents gave WWE money for Cena so they kept pushing him and people continue to watch and claim "Nakazawa and Stunt are draws". Just be fucking better, it's not difficult.
> 
> Cody needs to be head booker for everyone and book them all like he'd book himself. Tell the wrestlers to take it seriously so the fans can too. Get them acting lessons, personal trainers and bring in someone who understands in ring psychology to teach them that everything they do in the ring needs a reason. Also there's so much actual Elite talent out there that would actually make their product look better.
> 
> The product doesn't have to be serious, the wrestlers just have to take it seriously. Comedy works in wrestling when it's actually funny. They also wink at the camera way too often. Arguments aside, we can all admit that AEW can be better right?


Agreeeee but umm they dont need to bring in anyone to teach them psychology because they have a handful of older guys that did quite well at that. So they just need to teach it which I assume they were so I don't know what the hell's going on.

People are just to soft now and the fact cody and his wife are soft as fuck and running things is a problem. He gets story telling and gets segment's and like you said he needs to stop being selfish and having him glorify these every week well others don't. But he and brandi are still bed wetters that need to stop being emotional constantly and grab some balls and be it


----------



## ObsoleteMule (Sep 4, 2016)

MontyCora said:


> The criticisms of the humor of AEW strike me as kind of goofy. Should we start posting examples of average Attitude Era humor segments to prove a point? Cause I don't want to see that fucking bullshit. I'll take AEW kind of funny humor all day every day over that rose tinted glasses crap.


Its just so weird... like old WWE wasnt super goofy or something. Some of the ideas suggested on here are so far removed from what mainstream promotions like AEW and WWE present that it‘s almost laughable. Like I dont doubt that a more serious product would be a bit more intriguing but thats obviously not how AEW and WWE want to run their promotions.


----------



## shandcraig (Mar 23, 2008)

ObsoleteMule said:


> It all kind of makes sense now... its apparent that alot of the complainers on here deeply want to be bookers or run their own promotion. “Either make the show how I see fit or it sucks!”
> 
> Some of you are asking for entirely too much. Its like adopting a dog and getting mad because the dog cant fly. Holy shit



So we settle for soft cheesy nerdy SJW wrestling? Thats how you want it eh? Sorry but if that happens the wrestling industry will shrink so fucking small it will become extinct. The majority of wrestling fans are not bad and you not want that. Obviously the wrestling industry has forgotten that we are past this. Of these little Warriors making fuss in trying to change what video game companies do in movie companies do. Both of those Industries have fought back and have got back to normal order for the most part.

Im sure the warriors cried online over what jake said this week. Yet these people dont even watch the products they complain about. We do yet we dont have a say? Right. 

You simply dont understand the problem that we're trying to hey these companies past.

Your attitude is part of the problem . Some of those stupid ideas brandi was part of they dropped it fast because everyone said it was stupid. Instead you want us to sit here silent and let it happen.


----------



## ObsoleteMule (Sep 4, 2016)

shandcraig said:


> So we settle for soft cheesy nerdy SJW wrestling? Thats how you want it eh? Sorry but if that happens the wrestling industry will shrink so fucking small it will become extinct. The majority of wrestling fans are not bad and you not want that. Obviously the wrestling industry has forgotten that we are past this. Of these little Warriors making fuss in trying to change what video game companies do in movie companies do. Both of those Industries have fought back and have got back to normal order for the most part.
> 
> Im sure the warriors cried online over what jake said this week. Yet these people dont even watch the products they complain about. We do yet we dont have a say? Right.
> 
> ...


SJW have nothing to do with anything... in fact the anti-SJW crowd bitches more than the SJW’s. The fact of the matter is AEW and WWE dont want to make the mature product that alot of us are itching for. They are not the only promotions on Earth.

So instead of continuing to support them, hoping they turn it around and completely change their product I move on to promotions that scratch that itch for me. Bitching on WF isnt going to make these companies change... We’ve been bitching about WWE for decades and they wont change. They will continue to play it safe because for the most part that’s what’s most safe for business and their sponsors.

Do you really think our bitching on here will change things? Honestly?


----------



## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

ObsoleteMule said:


> Do you really think our bitching on here will change things? Honestly?


I guarantee you someone from the AEW office/roster would be reading this board even if it is just the Dynamite thread and taking notes of what worked well and what didn't with the fans.

WWE would have someone in their office doing the same thing as well in the WWE threads.

I'd also guarantee that you have people from within the industry and possibly signed to these companies that post on here under a pseudonym and just post as fans. Might just be independent guys or independent promoters but there are definitely people from within wrestling on this forum somewhere.


----------



## ObsoleteMule (Sep 4, 2016)

Chip Chipperson said:


> I guarantee you someone from the AEW office/roster would be reading this board even if it is just the Dynamite thread and taking notes of what worked well and what didn't with the fans.
> 
> WWE would have someone in their office doing the same thing as well in the WWE threads.
> 
> I'd also guarantee that you have people from within the industry and possibly signed to these companies that post on here under a pseudonym and just post as fans. Might just be independent guys or independent promoters but there are definitely people from within wrestling on this forum somewhere.


Even if that was the case it doesnt stop the fact that both AEW and WWE have ignored the root of what a majority of the fans on here have been asking for... A more mature show with deeper storylines. At its core that’s what it all boils down to. Improvements havent been made on that front


----------



## shandcraig (Mar 23, 2008)

ObsoleteMule said:


> SJW have nothing to do with anything... in fact the anti-SJW crowd bitches more than the SJW’s. The fact of the matter is AEW and WWE dont want to make the mature product that alot of us are itching for. They are not the only promotions on Earth.
> 
> So instead of continuing to support them, hoping they turn it around and completely change their product I move on to promotions that scratch that itch for me. Bitching on WF isnt going to make these companies change... We’ve been bitching about WWE for decades and they wont change. They will continue to play it safe because for the most part that’s what’s most safe for business and their sponsors.
> 
> Do you really think our bitching on here will change things? Honestly?



Not here, its fun for us to discuss. Twitter wrestling fans have had bullshit dropped in aew already. Why contiue something no one likes.

Sjw absolutley have everything to do with wwe and aew. Aew is very senstive company. Wwe is ran by stock holders basically that want it to be senstive.

Im not arguing what you wont see. So this debate is pointless.

You're here to bitch at everyone for everyone else agreeing they hate stuff aew is doing. What does that say about you wasting our time

Thank you


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

ObsoleteMule said:


> It all kind of makes sense now... its apparent that alot of the complainers on here deeply want to be bookers or run their own promotion. “Either make the show how I see fit or it sucks!”
> 
> Some of you are asking for entirely too much. Its like adopting a dog and getting mad because the dog cant fly. Holy shit


I have defended AEW’s usage of Marko Stunt vs Archer (despite hating Marko) and defended Orange Cassidy having a place in wrestling even when I didn’t like Cassidy.

But Matt Hardy has been awful. Anyone watching this shit has to wonder, “Why is Matt Hardy suddenly the top babyface in an Elite vs Innet Circle angle?”

Even the most diehard of AEW fans have to secretly know he should be playing a distant second to Kenny in this stuff and making Kenny look better. Instead, there doesn’t seem to be anything in the decision-making process that will leave this angle with anyone gaining anything from it, except Matt Hardy.


----------



## Jazminator (Jan 9, 2018)

It’s always hilarious when a fan begins with, “Such-and-such company has no idea how to...”

My response is always, “Oh, and YOU do?” 

Just come out and say it: “This company would do better if I were in charge.”


----------



## the_flock (Nov 23, 2016)

Chan Hung said:


> Given that timeframe you can also expect more stars to jump from WWE to AEW but with the focus of AEW to stay with their homegrown stars.


Product wise it's not a huge success, it's literally some guy using his Dad's money trying to recreate the attitude era when the whole population had moved on 15 years ago. There's nothing new or exciting in what they are doing, if anything its pretty lame and embarrassing.

Money wise, without seeing the figures, this is unknown, but I would be surprised if they've made anything, as they've spent an absolute fortune to basically get nowhere and not make any significant stamp on the industry.

This will be interesting, personally I'm not expecting them to develop many if any homegrown stars. I think WWE stars will dominate, MJF and Hangman might get a transitional championship reign, but beyond that I see more stars leaving out of frustration more than anything, apart from those who are simply there to cash a cheque. Next year I'm expecting both Jericho and JR to be back in WWE when their AEW deals expire.


----------



## ObsoleteMule (Sep 4, 2016)

shandcraig said:


> Not here, its fun for us to discuss. Twitter wrestling fans have had bullshit dropped in aew already. Why contiue something no one likes.
> 
> Sjw absolutley have everything to do with wwe and aew. Aew is very senstive company. Wwe is ran by stock holders basically that want it to be senstive.
> 
> ...


Yea the imaginary SJW’s are always ruining everything....

All im saying is that many of our complaints stem from the same thing... wanting a more mature product. AEW and WWE seem to be unwilling to do those things so I ask why we spend so much time watching products most of us have a fundamental problem with.

I’m not trying to get people to stop watching AEW and WWE, I’m genuinely just confused as to why people continue to support these products when it seems like negatives outweigh the positives.


----------



## validreasoning (Jul 4, 2012)

ObsoleteMule said:


> Even if that was the case it doesnt stop the fact that both AEW and WWE have ignored the root of what a majority of the fans on here have been asking for... A more mature show with deeper storylines. At its core that’s what it all boils down to. Improvements havent been made on that front


Is a mature product with deeper storylines really what the fans are yearning for?

Wasn't that what LU attempted and despite spending hundreds of millions failed to make any impact. Is not like the two successful periods of last 40 years had deep storylines or indeed were aimed at mature audiences. Monday night war especially AE was aimed at teen boys not married men who listened to classical music and had botany as their major hobby.

What is a mature product anyway? If you look at nxt, aew, raw/SD the vast majority of the crowds are adults between 25-49 so they seem to attract already that audience. The people on top ie Lesnar, undertaker, hhh, Goldberg, Jericho, Matt hardy, Edge have been around since Monday night raw era.

I think the issues in pro wrestling isn't where people think it is.

1. Nobody becomes a fan of pro wrestling as an adult. We all became fans as kids and carried it forward into adulthood. Main issue today is what on wrestling tv is aimed at kids? The guys from 20-30 years ago, no. Reigns is dark, brooding and never talks so he isn't attracting millions of new kids that were not there before, nxt/aew/TNA (before them) aren't looking at the 6-18 year old demo really. Maybe new day but that's really young kids and their ceiling is midcard tag act not maineventing the biggest shows and even then is sexually gyrating going to attract young kids or turn them off. Even Otis should be aimed at kids yet he spends the time mimicking cunnilingus with his tongue. I mean it's fucking hilarious to me but I could see why parents of young kids would view it as a turnoff.

2. The over reliance of storylines. Fans are continually waiting for that big storyline. They remember Vince vs Austin, NWO vs Sting and in more recent year punks contract and Bryan vs authority. However the problem lies therein. The fans are expecting a storyline everytime regardless. If someone wins rumble to become number one contender everyone is disappointed if they don't get the big storyline in the 2 months to build to Wrestlemania even though champion vs rumble winner should be enough story in itself without needing to invade someone's house or destroy their car etc


----------



## ObsoleteMule (Sep 4, 2016)

validreasoning said:


> Is a mature product with deeper storylines really what the fans are yearning for?
> 
> Wasn't that what LU attempted and despite spending hundreds of millions failed to make any impact. Is not like the two successful periods of last 40 years had deep storylines or indeed were aimed at mature audiences. Monday night war especially AE was aimed at teen boys not married men who listened to classical music and had botany as their major hobby.
> 
> ...


I’m not saying that a mature product is what will make business boom again but its clearly what a large portion of this site wants. I argue that WWE and AEW will never be that type of program. LU had that but people failed to support LU because they want all of that from WWE and now AEW (also LU was on a shit network).

You’re absolutely right about the kid thing... it’s probably the only reason why alot of us got hooked on pro-wrestling in the first place. AEW and WWE are in a odd place where they can gamble and cater to a new generation to reach the kid/teen demographic, alienating that hardcore fanbase or they can continue to try to satisfy the hardcore fans who are a loyal but dwindling.

Youre also right about the storyline thing. They don’t always have to be elaborate to work. I personally think MLW does the simple yet effective storytelling very well.


----------



## RapShepard (Jun 20, 2014)

Danielallen1410 said:


> Fake sports aren’t going to be adult friendly in general though, apart From the attitude era wrestling has Always been full of comedy etc and been a but stupid, I like it that way.






bdon said:


> My love died the minute I seen Shane McMahon on my show. I popped in maybe once every year or two to see what Sting was doing, didn’t have a clue who the fuck those guys were, and would pop back out just as quickly.
> 
> And you’re right. Wrestling conversations do not come up. I bring them up as much as I can without being annoying, hoping to spread the word of AEW that MOST people have not heard about, talking up the match quality. I do my part living in WV where there is a fan base dying to love pro wrestling again.
> 
> AEW shows glimpses of what it can be...then they pull shit like last night and look just like WWE.






Lheurch said:


> Obviously, no one I know now who does not watch would want to. That is my entire point. There is excuse, after excuse, after excuse for the dumb. There WAS a time when adults tuned in and became fans. Many times in fact. Saying no one will ever present a product people will take seriously is ignorant of history and just a built in excuse for doing dumb stuff in my opinion. I do not watch a Disney cartoon movie expecting it to be a Scorsese mob drama. Wrestling should not be a clown show aimed at making a ten year old who has had brain damage laugh.


Thing is while I agree that wrestling doesn't have to be cheesy or over do the "well it's fake and unpopular so let's do whatever". But at the same time I think folk who think "If only they booked the shows how I'd prefer they'd be in a better place" are fooling themselves. There's so much variety in wrestling available over the last decade especially nowadays that if the general public really wanted to get into wrestling they could easily find a product to enjoy. But they don't, because they don't care. It's okay to accept that wrestling a popularity of your youth is over, and it most likely isn't coming fucking back.


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

RapShepard said:


> Thing is while I agree that wrestling doesn't have to be cheesy or over do the "well it's fake and unpopular so let's do whatever". But at the same time I think folk who think "If only they booked the shows how I'd prefer they'd be in a better place" are fooling themselves. There's so much variety in wrestling available over the last decade especially nowadays that if the general public really wanted to get into wrestling they could easily find a product to enjoy. But they don't, because they don't care. It's okay to accept that wrestling a popularity of your youth is over, and it most likely isn't coming fucking back.


Oh, I don’t believe the masses are coming back. I’m not sure I want them to come back, because I remember being a kid when wrestling was somewhat unpopular, then it becoming super popular as a teenager and hating the Attitude Era bullshit for just going with the cheap ratings grab garbage. HOT LESBIAN ACTIONNN! THE PUPPIES! TNA!!! BEER!

Just because the masses ain’t coming back, doesn’t mean you can’t give the fans a great, logical show.

For those of us that remain, maybe they can, I don’t know, not feature Matt fucking Hardy or other midcard WWE talent so prominently just for...and waaaaair for it...A CHEAP FUCKING RATINGS GRAB!

No one believes the logical booking decision is to have Matt Hardy as the key face in an Elite vs Inner Circle angle. I know this, because no one has disagreed. I also know that no one believes this angle is progression the story or making anyone not named Matt Hardy look good, because I have asked multiple times for someone to give me some kind of reason to believe it is good booking with long-term thought.

I love a lot of what AEW does and has done. The only real things that have ever pissed me off was the random Dark Order beatdown in December, strapping the rocket to Moxley know that had not built a yin to his yang for when he beat Jericho and successfully predicting they would drop the ball on that, and Cody Rhodes’ selfishness in involving himself in every storyline.


----------



## Cult03 (Oct 31, 2016)

ObsoleteMule said:


> Its just so weird... like old WWE wasnt super goofy or something. Some of the ideas suggested on here are so far removed from what mainstream promotions like AEW and WWE present that it‘s almost laughable. Like I dont doubt that a more serious product would be a bit more intriguing but thats obviously not how AEW and WWE want to run their promotions.


You guys should engage in a conversation with us instead of taking incorrect pot shots. If you can carry out a conversation that doesn't involve making up lies or painting everyone with the same brush you'll realize what we are asking for is often very realistic and something for everyone and not just a few dorks who claim Marko Stunt has a place in a televised wrestling show. You won't though..


----------



## RapShepard (Jun 20, 2014)

bdon said:


> Oh, I don’t believe the masses are coming back. I’m not sure I want them to come back, because I remember being a kid when wrestling was somewhat unpopular, then it becoming super popular as a teenager and hating the Attitude Era bullshit for just going with the cheap ratings grab garbage. HOT LESBIAN ACTIONNN! THE PUPPIES! TNA!!! BEER!
> 
> Just because the masses ain’t coming back, doesn’t mean you can’t give the fans a great, logical show.
> 
> ...


I don't think Matt should be booked as strong as he is and I don't think Jericho should've either. But what I think is happening is outside of them being the clearly bigger names, they're working for a back office that probably looks up to them. The Buck's and Cody are all at that age were they were still in high school or younger when the Attitude Era was killing it and Jericho and Matt were big deals. That's not even including the fact that Tony is a big wrestling fan. I mean hell look at how hard Cody goes about trying to get all this Dusty and WCw nostalgia to the point he got the announcers he grew up on.

I think for you the big issue will probably always be that the owners and executives are maybe a little too big of fans. You know how folk say WWE is just Vince playing with his toys. AEW is the same for Tony and The Elite it just hasn't been around long enough for folk to get pissed off with it lol


----------



## Cult03 (Oct 31, 2016)

Chip Chipperson said:


> I guarantee you someone from the AEW office/roster would be reading this board even if it is just the Dynamite thread and taking notes of what worked well and what didn't with the fans.
> 
> WWE would have someone in their office doing the same thing as well in the WWE threads.
> 
> I'd also guarantee that you have people from within the industry and possibly signed to these companies that post on here under a pseudonym and just post as fans. Might just be independent guys or independent promoters but there are definitely people from within wrestling on this forum somewhere.


Numerous things we've complained about have changed though. They've even taken a few ideas from us. But sure, we are doing nothing. Definitely doing more than those who love everything and don't want any changes whatsoever.


----------



## Cult03 (Oct 31, 2016)

Jazminator said:


> It’s always hilarious when a fan begins with, “Such-and-such company has no idea how to...”
> 
> My response is always, “Oh, and YOU do?”
> 
> Just come out and say it: “This company would do better if I were in charge.”


Literally nobody is saying that. Some of you can't have a conversation on here without making up things to argue against. It's actually insane how frequent this happens. Critiquing happens in every industry, ask your hero Dave Meltzer how he feels about WWE booking in the last ten years. He's complained more than anyone and yet the show would be worse with him in charge. If you go to a restaurant and pay for a meal and it sucks and you make a complaint does that mean you think you could do it better? 

Odds on this not even getting a response by the way.


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

RapShepard said:


> I don't think Matt should be booked as strong as he is and I don't think Jericho should've either. But what I think is happening is outside of them being the clearly bigger names, they're working for a back office that probably looks up to them. The Buck's and Cody are all at that age were they were still in high school or younger when the Attitude Era was killing it and Jericho and Matt were big deals. That's not even including the fact that Tony is a big wrestling fan. I mean hell look at how hard Cody goes about trying to get all this Dusty and WCw nostalgia to the point he got the announcers he grew up on.
> 
> I think for you the big issue will probably always be that the owners and executives are maybe a little too big of fans. You know how folk say WWE is just Vince playing with his toys. AEW is the same for Tony and The Elite it just hasn't been around long enough for folk to get pissed off with it lol


Totally fair, but if we can see these things deserve better thought and work, can they not see it? Can they not see why a Matt Hardy being booked this strongly would be better served if it were Omega? Or that “Ok, now that you’ve put this guy in the ring with ex-WWE guy X, we will have this for him on the backend of this, so that fans, still with their eyes on him and memories fresh, can quickly invest in his next feud/angle?

No one is shitting on the product to just shit on the product. We’re trying to have an honest conversation.


----------



## Cult03 (Oct 31, 2016)

bdon said:


> Totally fair, but if we can see these things deserve better thought and work, can they not see it? Can they not see why a Matt Hardy being booked this strongly would be better served if it were Omega? Or that “Ok, now that you’ve put this guy in the ring with ex-WWE guy X, we will have this for him on the backend of this, so that fans, still with their eyes on him and memories fresh, can quickly invest in his next feud/angle?
> 
> No one is shitting on the product to just shit on the product. We’re trying to have an honest conversation.


You'd be surprised how difficult it is to see the reality of things when you surround yourself with sycophants with a vested interest who won't ever tell you how bad something is. Look at WWE as the perfect example. Vince surrounds himself with people who can't say no to him and it's almost completely ruined the product, if not wrestling as a whole.


----------



## RapShepard (Jun 20, 2014)

bdon said:


> Totally fair, but if we can see these things deserve better thought and work, can they not see it? Can they not see why a Matt Hardy being booked this strongly would be better served if it were Omega? Or that “Ok, now that you’ve put this guy in the ring with ex-WWE guy X, we will have this for him on the backend of this, so that fans, still with their eyes on him and memories fresh, can quickly invest in his next feud/angle?
> 
> No one is shitting on the product to just shit on the product. We’re trying to have an honest conversation.


Probably not. Think about it they have all the reasons not to. 

1. They look up to the guys
2. The company is young so the immediate excuse if we have to use the known names
3. They generally get good fan feedback
4. They've exceeded expectations business wise on Tony's and TNT's stand point
5. Covid-19 is a good "well given circumstances" excuse. 
6. When you're on top of the world folk tend to assume that tomorrow is promised. 

For them they probably naturally assume they have all the time in the world to eventually move Jericho and Matt to builder roles, they have all the time in the world to eventually do Kenny's singles push right as well as Page and MJFs. .


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

EmbassyForever said:


> I love how the most active, "top contributors" users in the AEW section are the ones who always bitch & moan about the product.
> 
> And I thought Twitter was toxic...


They’re being honest. 



rbl85 said:


> I wasn't talking about you because you write equally about what you like and don't like.
> Your first post wasn't "this sucks" or "they dont know what they're doing".


There’s nothing wrong with that. 



EmbassyForever said:


> I wasn't even talking about you, tbh.
> 
> Of course there are some overprotective, annoying af fanboys. Just like every company has btw. But at least they're wasting their time on something they love.
> I hate WWE's product, which is why I don't bother watching them nowadays. I think ROH's management is shitty, which is why I gave up on the company. Simple as that. No idea why some users are putting so much energy when obviously they're not a fan of AEW's way of thinking. Cornette is doing that for money & advertising, what's their excuse?


Some people love talking about wrestling, even when the business is in a hole. 



rbl85 said:


> They will tell that it's because they really want AEW to succeed. XD
> 
> Also now i understand why there's not new wrestling fans, peoples who are stranger to wrestling see the supposed fans shitting on wrestling everything single day. Why would you bother trying to watch something when you see the fans saying that it suck ?
> The fans are hurting wrestling more than the product is doing it.


That’s right. Fans without standards are hurting wrestling.


----------



## One Shed (Jan 7, 2014)

RapShepard said:


> Thing is while I agree that wrestling doesn't have to be cheesy or over do the "well it's fake and unpopular so let's do whatever". But at the same time I think folk who think "If only they booked the shows how I'd prefer they'd be in a better place" are fooling themselves. There's so much variety in wrestling available over the last decade especially nowadays that if the general public really wanted to get into wrestling they could easily find a product to enjoy. But they don't, because they don't care. It's okay to accept that wrestling a popularity of your youth is over, and it most likely isn't coming fucking back.


I think this line of reasoning is silly though. Your grammar is often hard to follow, but I think I mostly understand it. It is not the lack of availability of wrestling that is the problem, it is the dumb stuff involved today.


----------



## RapShepard (Jun 20, 2014)

Lheurch said:


> I think this line of reasoning is silly though. Your grammar is often hard to follow, but I think I mostly understand it. It is not the lack of availability of wrestling that is the problem, it is the dumb stuff involved today.


No, what I'm saying is the masses don't want wrestling. If the masses wanted wrestling there's plenty of wrestling out there of different types to consume. They just don't want it.


----------



## ObsoleteMule (Sep 4, 2016)

Cult03 said:


> You guys should engage in a conversation with us instead of taking incorrect pot shots. If you can carry out a conversation that doesn't involve making up lies or painting everyone with the same brush you'll realize what we are asking for is often very realistic and something for everyone and not just a few dorks who claim Marko Stunt has a place in a televised wrestling show. You won't though..


What is there to discuss? Alot of you guys clearly want a product thats not going to happen and complain as if there aren't viable products that have what you guys are complaining about.

WF disagrees on alot of shit but i dont think it would be too far fetched to say that most of us want the same thing; a more compelling/mature product that doesnt insult the intelligence. AEW and main roster WWE seem to have visions that directly clash with that want, which is why many of us hate the majority of the shit these companies put out.

All i ask is why continue to watch and hope that these companies turn it around? It confuses the hell out of me... like I gave AEW a try and saw that it wasnt what I wanted out of a wrestling program so I left that shit alone. The people here seem to want to bend AEW to their whim when clearly they have a different vision.

Nothing wrong with the criticizing the show, but when it seems deeper than that. Like alot of us seem to have a problem with the entire show at its core and not just a few segments


----------



## One Shed (Jan 7, 2014)

RapShepard said:


> No, what I'm saying is the masses don't want wrestling. If the masses wanted wrestling there's plenty of wrestling out there of different types to consume. They just don't want it.


Sorry, but this is such backwards thinking. The wrestling being presented is not wanted by the masses. That is much different than when wresting was desired. We actually have facts and data about this...


----------



## Cult03 (Oct 31, 2016)

ObsoleteMule said:


> What is there to discuss? Alot of you guys clearly want a product thats not going to happen and complain as if there aren't viable products that have what you guys are complaining about.
> 
> WF disagrees on alot of shit but i dont think it would be too far fetched to say that most of us want the same thing; a more compelling/mature product that doesnt insult the intelligence. AEW and main roster WWE seem to have visions that directly clash with that want, which is why many of us hate the majority of the shit these companies put out.
> 
> ...


Because it's the last chance wrestling has really. This company promised to listen to their fans and they actually have listened to the people with criticism a fair bit, but they won't change everything. Half of this show is enjoyable. We also don't complain half as much as their fans put on and they tend to make it worse by arguing things like Marko Stunt to the death. They have the right ingredients they just don't make the right decisions every time and there's no way they'll get better with people like @Garty saying they love everything.


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

Cult03 said:


> Because it's the last chance wrestling has really. This company promised to listen to their fans and they actually have listened to the people with criticism a fair bit, but they won't change everything. Half of this show is enjoyable. We also don't complain half as much as their fans put on and they tend to make it worse by arguing things like Marko Stunt to the death. They have the right ingredients they just don't make the right decisions every time and there's no way they'll get better with people like @Garty saying they love everything.


Exactly. I have little to complain about. If Marko is on TV or the like, I leave the TV on, dick off on the phone or play with the kids or talk to the wife or whatever.

When something I’m looking forward to comes on and is ruined by dumb shit, THEN I complain.

I didn’t like Disco and Alex Wright dance offs, but in those days, I didn’t have to worry about Sting suddenly gyrating his hips to be like the dumb shit. The Finger Poke of Doom was, in fact, dumb shit, and it spelled the death of WCW. Whodathunkit!?


----------



## ObsoleteMule (Sep 4, 2016)

Cult03 said:


> Because it's the last chance wrestling has really. This company promised to listen to their fans and they actually have listened to the people with criticism a fair bit, but they won't change everything. Half of this show is enjoyable. We also don't complain half as much as their fans put on and they tend to make it worse by arguing things like Marko Stunt to the death. They have the right ingredients they just don't make the right decisions every time and there's no way they'll get better with people like @Garty saying they love everything.


I can respect that answer or at least now I understand more. Admittedly I give up on shit extremely quick so I get confused when others don’t. I disagree with AEW being wrestling’s last chance because for the most part pro wrestling is pretty much done on a mainstream scale and nothing can really change that. AEW did have the opportunity to create something truly fresh and maybe siphon a good chunk of WWE’s fans but they kind of shit the bed.

There’s obviously still a chance to turn it around but it doesnt seem like AEW is really interested in being a game changer. I feel like they’re okay with being a safe alternative


----------



## Cult03 (Oct 31, 2016)

bdon said:


> Exactly. I have little to complain about. If Marko is on TV or the like, I leave the TV on, dick off on the phone or play with the kids or talk to the wife or whatever.
> 
> When something I’m looking forward to comes on and is ruined by dumb shit, THEN I complain.
> 
> I didn’t like Disco and Alex Wright dance offs, but in those days, I didn’t have to worry about Sting suddenly gyrating his hips to be like the dumb shit. The Finger Poke of Doom was, in fact, dumb shit, and it spelled the death of WCW. Whodathunkit!?


Stunt should never have been signed. I like Luchasaurus and Jungle Boy, he was involved in that. Chris Jericho is someone I've watched, probably every match and promo for since the 90's, he was involved with him. Lance Archer was someone I enjoyed in NJPW and was excited to see in AEW, he was involved with him. Brodie Lee is someone I was super excited for and Stunt was involved with him. Now he's going to be involved in a feud with MJF who has been one of my favourites for a while. How the fuck am I supposed to just switch off?


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

RapShepard said:


> No, what I'm saying is the masses don't want wrestling. If the masses wanted wrestling there's plenty of wrestling out there of different types to consume. They just don't want it.


What is really good and presented in an urgent and culturally significant way? The two big promotions are WWE and AEW. They're both silly as shit. People love wrestling, they just don't like how they perceive modern wrestling to present itself. I guarantee that if The Rock presented Mid-South Wrestling, it would be fucking over. But there's nothing like that. You've got the WWE, which is like a demented circus and AEW which is a high school theatre production of a demented circus that pretends it is not a demented circus.


----------



## Cult03 (Oct 31, 2016)

ObsoleteMule said:


> I can respect that answer or at least now I understand more. Admittedly I give up on shit extremely quick so I get confused when others don’t. I disagree with AEW being wrestling’s last chance because for the most part pro wrestling is pretty much done on a mainstream scale and nothing can really change that. AEW did have the opportunity to create something truly fresh and maybe siphon a good chunk of WWE’s fans but they kind of shit the bed.
> 
> There’s obviously still a chance to turn it around but it doesnt seem like AEW is really interested in being a game changer. I feel like they’re okay with being a safe alternative


I don't really expect it to be mainstream again to be fair. It's not something I've ever asked for. I've given ideas that probably won't work like Reigns attacking the Rock on a red carpet and forcing it's way into pop culture but it will never happen because the companies are getting paid no matter what. I absolutely agree with your last two sentences. It got too difficult for them and they seem to have given up.


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

"Mainstream" is such a weird word. It doesn't need to be mainstream to be good again. And it doesn't need to be "mainstream" to be far more important to television and not feel like it's fucking niche.


----------



## RapShepard (Jun 20, 2014)

Lheurch said:


> Sorry, but this is such backwards thinking. The wrestling being presented is not wanted by the masses. That is much different than when wresting was desired. We actually have facts and data about this...


Only thing backwards is still believing folk are yearning for wrestling lol. If folk wanted wrestling there's plenty of different promotions that run differently that they could find to fix that itch. But the thing is folk don't want wrestling. All that well back in the day shit is great, but sometimes mainstream fads just die off and stay there.


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

RapShepard said:


> Only thing backwards is still believing folk are yearning for wrestling lol. If folk wanted wrestling there's plenty of different promotions that run differently that they could find to fix that itch. But the thing is folk don't want wrestling. All that well back in the day shit is great, but sometimes mainstream fads just die off and stay there.


They don't want WWE or AEW. That's not the same as not wanting wrestling lol. Enjoying conflict is wired into the human psyche.


----------



## RapShepard (Jun 20, 2014)

The Wood said:


> What is really good and presented in an urgent and culturally significant way? The two big promotions are WWE and AEW. They're both silly as shit. People love wrestling, they just don't like how they perceive modern wrestling to present itself. I guarantee that if The Rock presented Mid-South Wrestling, it would be fucking over. But there's nothing like that. You've got the WWE, which is like a demented circus and AEW which is a high school theatre production of a demented circus that pretends it is not a demented circus.


Why would it be over? Let me guess because you like it and that's what you think is what people want? Here's the truth people don't want wrestling. The quicker some of y'all accept that something you love that was popular is no longer popular the easier it'll be to enjoy some things.


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

RapShepard said:


> Why would it be over? Let me guess because you like it and that's what you think is what people want? Here's the truth people don't want wrestling. The quicker some of y'all accept that something you love that was popular is no longer popular the easier it'll be to enjoy some things.


Lol, you just keep saying your opinion on what people want as if it's fact, calling other people blind to it. It would be over because the simplest elements of pro-wrestling work _everywhere fucking else on the planet_., The only thing that doesn't do wrestling is wrestling.


----------



## RapShepard (Jun 20, 2014)

The Wood said:


> Lol, you just keep saying your opinion on what people want as if it's fact, calling other people blind to it. It would be over because the simplest elements of pro-wrestling work _everywhere fucking else on the planet_., The only thing that doesn't do wrestling is wrestling.


You're the one who just said "yo if Rock did Midsouth it would work". No it wouldn't because folk don't care about wrestling anymore. Hell the closest example of using wrestling tactics is MMA, and that's less popular than wrestling save a few odd stars and that has the benefit of being a real sport. Then any other examples you have would be done to being in more accepted forms of entertainment.


----------



## 304418 (Jul 2, 2014)

Chip Chipperson said:


> People discussing what could bring people back to wrestling I genuinely believe WWE has a lock on the kids and families market so just like Eric Bischoff did in 1995 you have to set out to be different. This doesn't mean knocking off what he did but you could certainly borrow elements from WWE's "Attitude Era", ECW and Nitro's run at the top of the wrestling world.
> 
> Imagine an AEW Dynamite looking like this:
> 
> - Realistic approach - No guys throwing oil at one another but instead Jericho's thugs kicking the shit out of Matt Hardy backstage and busting him open, Moxley instead of angrily walking backstage and then hanging out backstage for the whole show lets see him attacking people backstage in search of Brodie, breaking things, interrupting matches and kicking ass to call Brodie out, if we're going to still do comedy (Which is fine if done properly) lets see situations away from the wrestling arena such as The Inner Circle at a club living the high life and being pricks to the wait staff, lets see Guevara at a high end strip club (Obviously no nudity but make it work) absolutely going mental over it as the "geeky" member of IC who has seen an unclothed woman for one of the first times, lets get layers to the characters and explain things such as why Jungle Boy the son of a movie star is dressing up like he lives in the jungle, lets actually get away from those jungle type gimmicks and give guys realistic characters that people can actually relate to. I understand stuff away from the wrestling arena can't be done right now but the rest of it can.


I agree here. It’s like anime. Anime is thought of as being for kids (like WWE), until you learn about all of the 18+ animes that exist that deal with adult themes. That’s what AEW should be like; 18+ anime, showing that it can be for adults too. 

As for the Guevara/strip club idea, it would have to be that way for tv. But it would work better on PPV anyways, like in the Attitude Era, so that it doesn’t have to be censored. Or put the uncensored version on Twitter.



> - Make the matches punchy and to the point. Not every match needs 10-15 minutes to resonate and as a matter of fact it sometimes makes them worse. The Hardy/Omega tag from this week would've been way better if it was shorter as would Kazarian Vs Moxley from last week. I think they could really do well with having a good mix of styles on display as well because it seems like everyone is just a good athlete no psychology type of wrestler. I really enjoyed that street fight from last weeks episode because how often do you see a good solid brawl in AEW? Barely ever.


Yes, agreed. Especially when on tv.



> - Build to your gimmick matches. AEW has TNA syndrome here where they just randomly throw stipulations and gimmicks without build on TV or PPV for no real reason. For example, why was Dustin's career on the line randomly one week but not anymore? The street fight as good as it was probably should've just been a normal tag match with some craziness to build to the violent match on PPV. Best Friends fought Kip Sabian and Jimmy Havoc in a no disqualification match on free TV for no reason other than they brawled the week before on TV. Build to these big matches just like you did with Hager/Moxley instead of randomly throwing them onto shows.
> 
> - Build your stories. Give me a reason to care about your roster. You spend 4 weeks building Jericho/Pete on TV and it was all just a waste of time. Cody/Dustin throwing in the towel angle has been forgotten about to do Archer/Cody on TV, where was Cody last week on TV after his Mrs copped a beatdown? I know they said he was too far away to directly interrupt it but why couldn't we have come back from commercial to a passionate promo from Cody? Brodie/Moxley has just been thrown together like a bad chicken sandwich and despite watching weekly I can't tell you why Hardy and Jericho hate one another enough to want to kill one another on the upcoming PPV.


This could be solved by having more PPVs per year – 6-7 instead of 4 – as it would give them definitive bookends for stories. But that would mean AEW would have to get their own streaming service, since no one is going to be paying $50 for so many AEW PPVs.



> I think AEW also really struggles much like TNA did to give the people a reason to tune in next week. What reason do I have to tune in next week to Dynamite? There is very rarely a hook or continuation of something that happened the last week





> Only person in the past few years I've come across who likes wrestling was the maintenance man in his seventies at my job who was a big WWE fan for like 25 years. He was your traditional "casual fan" and mentioned to me once Dean Ambrose randomly disappearing. I said he wrestled for AEW now and his response was "What's AEW?"
> 
> Was interesting chatting wrestling with him. He certainly did point out stupid stuff despite the narrative generally being that the casuals don't care about the stupid stuff.


I don’t mind if AEW brings Ultimate X/Elevation X over, or bring in Gail Kim to book the women’s division with Awesome Kong. But in general, they should keep the TNA presence to a minimum. They should be emulating the 83 weeks that Nitro beat Raw, or emulating the Attitude Era, or the Saturday Night Main Event with Hogan vs Andre the Giant, something that will push ratings to 10 million viewers. Will AEW get 10 million viewers? Obviously not. But the point in aiming really high is that is gives them something to aspire to so that the shows can have some sort of relevancy in pop culture. And the maybe there wouldn’t be questions about “What’s AEW? “ much like there used to be questions about “What’s TNA?” AEW's not going to get there setting for between 700 000 - 900 000 viewers.


----------



## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

People care about wrestling as evidenced by AEW's initial rating of 1.4 million people that has more than halved as of this weeks rating. That's 700,000+ people who weren't WWE fans and were willing to give AEW a shot only to decide "Nah, not for me".


----------



## El Hammerstone (Jan 11, 2020)

bdon said:


> But Matt Hardy has been awful. Anyone watching this shit has to wonder, “Why is Matt Hardy suddenly the top babyface in an Elite vs Innet Circle angle?”
> 
> Even the most diehard of AEW fans have to secretly know he should be playing a distant second to Kenny in this stuff and making Kenny look better. Instead, there doesn’t seem to be anything in the decision-making process that will leave this angle with anyone gaining anything from it, except Matt Hardy.


Hardy's gimmick aside, I will speak only regarding him as a name talent; he isn't a huge name player by any means but he does have some value in that regard. Matt Hardy is 45 years old, and no matter if he loses 20 consecutive matches, or wins 20 consecutive matches, the fact is that he is what he is at this point in his career and his booking in terms of wins and losses with only have an effect on the people around him at this stage. Matt Hardy being booked as a consistent main event player going forward will only make those under or around him look like B or even C team guys, because he has been solidified for so long as a mid card staple; Matt Hardy being booked as a mid card staple with some name value on the other hand, will make those around or above him look that much better.


----------



## 304418 (Jul 2, 2014)

Chip Chipperson said:


> People care about wrestling as evidenced by AEW's initial rating of 1.4 million people that has more than halved as of this weeks rating. That's 700,000+ people who weren't WWE fans and were willing to give AEW a shot only to decide "Nah, not for me".


As long as AEW caters to the Being The Elite niche, and has no serious interest in going toe to toe with NXT as Cody as admitted to, that going to be case for the foreseeable future. Even though they could be drawing 1.4 million every week if they kept producing shows like their premiere episode of Dynamite far more often.


----------



## Cult03 (Oct 31, 2016)

Verbatim17 said:


> As long as AEW caters to the Being The Elite niche, and has no serious interest in going toe to toe with NXT as Cody as admitted to, that going to be case for the foreseeable future. Even though they could be drawing 1.4 million every week if they kept producing shows like their premiere episode of Dynamite far more often.


Are the AEW super fans ok with this?


----------



## shandcraig (Mar 23, 2008)

ObsoleteMule said:


> Yea the imaginary SJW’s are always ruining everything....
> 
> All im saying is that many of our complaints stem from the same thing... wanting a more mature product. AEW and WWE seem to be unwilling to do those things so I ask why we spend so much time watching products most of us have a fundamental problem with.
> 
> I’m not trying to get people to stop watching AEW and WWE, I’m genuinely just confused as to why people continue to support these products when it seems like negatives outweigh the positives.



I haven't watched or supported wwe in many years. AEW is a new venture that had promises. Im giving it a chance and of course wont last forever. At the moment I dont even watch Impact anymore either. To me i feel wrestling was always evolving and changing and it seems stuck the psst 15 years. Gaming industry keeps changing and the film industry even.

But ya trust me most people that watch aew dont watch wwe but some do. We're the lost fans aew mentioned before they started.

Theres a reason why the industry keeps shifting on fan size and wwe has been declinging slowly. We simply dont like it and thats why we bitch.

I think aew is getting half right and its good but it lacks story telling and consistnce. Also every wrestler feels like they are blended together with some comedy. That being said comedy act is great but its fitted for certain things. Not in every match and every aspect of everything. What OC has is unique and thats his act. Its a moment for the crowd to cheer and laugh. 

They have a handful of great talent that are new younger guys.

AEW in a year will be very different. They are new so are yet to find an identity and thats normal and a lot will be different. And if its not they mignt lose many fans.

This aspect i have said is all facts and i think its fair. Sorry if the structure of my ramble is bad, I'm dyslexic lol.

Think that should all make sense to you though.


----------



## shandcraig (Mar 23, 2008)

Verbatim17 said:


> As long as AEW caters to the Being The Elite niche, and has no serious interest in going toe to toe with NXT as Cody as admitted to, that going to be case for the foreseeable future. Even though they could be drawing 1.4 million every week if they kept producing shows like their premiere episode of Dynamite far more often.


Being the elite is tereible and i dont think its in touch at all


----------



## validreasoning (Jul 4, 2012)

I never thought AEW would average 1.4 million per week. That's what NBA games on ESPN/Turner average throughout the season. My original estimate for AEWs debut was pretty much spot on WWE NXT TV Ratings Thread: NO B.S. THE NUMBERS.

Niche is not a correct term to describe a business that has 9 hours of original content on two of the biggest cable channels (USA/TNT) and Fox every week. There are plenty of things that are niche that would love that amount of TV time, roller derby e.g

Is pro wrestling as popular in the US now as it was in 1998-99, no not even close. However both NXT and AEW have sold more tickets to their ppvs/Takeovers last 12 months than WCW did for majority of theirs in 2000-01. NXT on it's own did 8,000 in Portland, 7,000 sellout in Bridgeport with no main roster show nearby. WCW drew 6,500 for Starrcade 2000 (building was setup for 15,000) and half those were freebies.

As previously stated pro wrestling in the US made itself storyline centric last 30 years over the individual. That's a big problem in itself because fans are waiting (mostly not waiting) for that next big storyline. AEW good example of that. Both Cody/MJF and Jericho/Moxley were fun storylines that gained a fair bit of buzz, however once match and storyline ended none of the four guys were any more over than what they were before storyline took place, I mean you can argue MJF and Moxley are less over now than May-November 2019 and that's a big problem. WWE have been in same boat for 3 decades.


----------



## JerryMark (May 7, 2016)

they signed too many indie guys who only know how to get over at PWG like shows.

there's a difference between popping a smarky crowd with cool moves and getting over with cool ongoing angles on TV. mjw at least spent time in mlw and allin has an actual personality.

i still don't know why all these tag teams are so furious with each other. outside of the rhodes-sphere they kinda suck at building stories. why did moxley hate omega bad enough to both go into a barbed wire trampoline? that kinda hate should radiate off the screen.


----------



## Cosmo77 (Aug 9, 2016)

you hate to admit it,but dynamite is better than Raw or SD at the monent.,hey at least aew has dailys place and their ppl making noise vs a raw or sd at the pc.


----------



## El Hammerstone (Jan 11, 2020)

Cosmo77 said:


> you hate to admit it,but dynamite is better than Raw or SD at the monent.,hey at least aew has dailys place and their ppl making noise vs a raw or sd at the pc.


Rectal cancer is better than Raw or SD at the moment.


----------



## shandcraig (Mar 23, 2008)

The Wood said:


> Lol, you just keep saying your opinion on what people want as if it's fact, calling other people blind to it. It would be over because the simplest elements of pro-wrestling work _everywhere fucking else on the planet_., The only thing that doesn't do wrestling is wrestling.



I haven't read what you both are talk about and im just casually curious as i dont know. What elements in wrestling are we seeing right now thats in every everything else on the planet?


----------



## Danielallen1410 (Nov 21, 2016)

Chip Chipperson said:


> People care about wrestling as evidenced by AEW's initial rating of 1.4 million people that has more than halved as of this weeks rating. That's 700,000+ people who weren't WWE fans and were willing to give AEW a shot only to decide "Nah, not for me".


or could be 300k decided not for me and 400 k still watching but just don’t watch it live.


----------



## Metalhead1 (Jan 21, 2019)

The OP does have some good points. 

I totally agree about there being too many long, drawn out matches, especially when you know what the outcome is going to be. I like Janela, but you knew he was going to lose the match, yet they made it long and drawn out. I agree that they need more interesting and engaging angles, which is what I loved so much about the Attitude Era. And interesting angles would be something that would set them apart and distinguish themselves from the WWE, who barely have any angles at all. Sometimes I do think that Cody, the Young Bucks and Omega are in over their heads and need some experienced bookers to help them out in creating interesting angles and with the overall running of the show. 

I agree about Cody too. He's a good wrestler but I do think he over pushes himself. But that's what happens when you have wrestlers running the company. You have a real danger of them over pushing themselves. Although I do agree with their pushing of Hardy and Brodie Lee. Hardy is a known commodity and Brodie is an imposing big guy.


----------



## The Raw Smackdown (Jan 8, 2017)

RapShepard said:


> Only thing backwards is still believing folk are yearning for wrestling lol. If folk wanted wrestling there's plenty of different promotions that run differently that they could find to fix that itch. But the thing is folk don't want wrestling. All that well back in the day shit is great, *but sometimes mainstream fads just die off and stay there.*


And that's all wrestling was back in the 90's: A fucking fad. All this other silly shit that people claim drove fans away didn't: people just got tired of wrestling and moved on the next new fad. That's it and that's all. Nothing anyone could've done or said about any of that.


----------



## El Hammerstone (Jan 11, 2020)

The Raw Smackdown said:


> And that's all wrestling was back in the 90's: A fucking fad. All this other silly shit that people claim drove fans away didn't: people just got tired of wrestling and moved on the next new fad. That's it and that's all. Nothing anyone could've done or said about any of that.


Let me just ask you this: Can wrestling reverse the trend of falling ratings?


----------



## The Raw Smackdown (Jan 8, 2017)

El Hammerstone said:


> Let me just ask you this: Can wrestling reverse the trend of falling ratings?


The ratings aren't falling though: At least not with AEW. They're just fluctuating.

WWE I'm not so sure of honestly.


----------



## Rozzop (Aug 26, 2019)

The Raw Smackdown said:


> And that's all wrestling was back in the 90's: A fucking fad. All this other silly shit that people claim drove fans away didn't: people just got tired of wrestling and moved on the next new fad. That's it and that's all. Nothing anyone could've done or said about any of that.


This might not mean anything but 90% of posts on random facebook stories about WWE is how childish and embarrasing it is. 

You cant argue that fans yearn for the attitude era. The ones that walked away when the so called pg era started. They werent casuals. They were hardcore fans. Completely turned away from the product circa 2008 and been dropping off ever since. 

Why did they walk away? Because the product in 2010 was massively different than 1999. Even more different in 2020. They didnt just walk away for no reason. They didnt want to watch a program catered to kids.

They aren't going to come to this website and say that. They have no interest anymore, but they are out there. None of my friends who i grew up with watching WWE watch still. Its why i have to come on here and talk to strangers. It wasnt just a fad, they were diehard fans. 

Now isnt that what AEW is supposed to be? An alternative to WWE's kiddy crap? That was why it got such an initial buzz in the first place, no? Fans were desperate for an alternative.


----------



## El Hammerstone (Jan 11, 2020)

The Raw Smackdown said:


> The ratings aren't falling though: At least not with AEW. They're just fluctuating.
> 
> WWE I'm not so sure of honestly.


I'm talking about the industry as a whole. Raw and Smackdown's ratings have plummeted in the past decade, where they used to be drawing double what they are now; considering the big networks they are on, I can't imagine this is not a major concern. These shows have been on a consistent downward trend since even the Ruthless Aggression era ended, and if the trend continues, wrestling may very well die in our lifetime, or at least get to the point where they are reduced to a small, obscure network that airs fishing and antique shows, and no, this is not an exaggeration. As for AEW, they don't have that same sample size to draw from, so that's up in the air for the future.

No one is claiming another boom period will happen, but if the amount of people watching wrestling continues to dwindle, that spells very bad news for the industry.


----------



## El Hammerstone (Jan 11, 2020)

Double post. Sorry.


----------



## The Raw Smackdown (Jan 8, 2017)

Rozzop said:


> This might not mean anything but 90% of posts on random facebook stories about WWE is how childish and embarrasing it is.
> 
> You cant argue that fans yearn for the attitude era. The ones that walked away when the so called pg era started. They werent casuals. They were hardcore fans. Completely turned away from the product circa 2008 and been dropping off ever since.
> 
> ...


They obviously were WWE fans and not wrestling fans clearly. 

And yes. AEW is an alternative and every other fucking promotion out there is too. I personally don't see what AEW does is so kiddy honestly.


----------



## The Raw Smackdown (Jan 8, 2017)

El Hammerstone said:


> I'm talking about the industry as a whole. Raw and Smackdown's ratings have plummeted in the past decade, where they used to be drawing double what they are now; considering the big networks they are on, I can't imagine this is not a major concern. These shows have been on a consistent downward trend since well after the Attitude era ended, and if the trend continues, wrestling may very well die in our lifetime, or at least get to the point where they are reduced to a small, obscure network that airs fishing and antique shows, and no, this is not an exaggeration. As for AEW, they don't have that same sample size to draw from, so that's up in the air for the future.
> 
> No one is claiming another boom period will happen, but if the amount of people watching wrestling continues to dwindle, that spells very bad news for the industry.


Well The business is doing just fine honestly so aside from WWE I'm not seeing these "Failing ratings". So to me it look like you are exaggerating. 

If you're so worried about wrestling's future then why don't YOU do something about it? Bitching on a fourm isn't gonna do much.


----------



## Danielallen1410 (Nov 21, 2016)

El Hammerstone said:


> Let me just ask you this: Can wrestling reverse the trend of falling ratings?


I don’t think ratings are a true measure of how popular something is.


----------



## El Hammerstone (Jan 11, 2020)

The Raw Smackdown said:


> Well The business is doing just fine honestly so aside from WWE I'm not seeing these "Failing ratings". So to me it look like you are exaggerating.
> 
> *If you're so worried about wrestling's future then why don't YOU do something about it?* Bitching on a fourm isn't gonna do much.


It would be nice if someone would TRY. If average ratings going from 3.4 in 2010 (and wrestling was nowhere near a fad at this point) to a 2.0 even when the crowds were present, is your definition of the industry doing "just fine", then I suppose we're never going to see eye to eye on this.


----------



## The Raw Smackdown (Jan 8, 2017)

El Hammerstone said:


> It would be nice if someone would TRY. If average ratings going from* 3.4 in 2010 *(and wrestling was nowhere near a fad at this point) *to a 2.0 *even when the crowds were present, is your definition of the industry doing "just fine", then I suppose we're never going to see eye to eye on this.


That's not even that big of a drop honestly.


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

RapShepard said:


> You're the one who just said "yo if Rock did Midsouth it would work". No it wouldn't because folk don't care about wrestling anymore. Hell the closest example of using wrestling tactics is MMA, and that's less popular than wrestling save a few odd stars and that has the benefit of being a real sport. Then any other examples you have would be done to being in more accepted forms of entertainment.


Yeah, I did. And I stand by it. People care about wrestling, they just don't care about sports entertainment that insults their intelligence. They're horny and they're not being fucked. There hasn't been any good wrestling on TV for about about 20 years now. 



shandcraig said:


> I haven't read what you both are talk about and im just casually curious as i dont know. What elements in wrestling are we seeing right now thats in every everything else on the planet?


Wrestling techniques are used in sports (not only boxing and MMA, but even things like football). Mayweather draws so much money because he's the perfect heel. I didn't have the heart to tell my friend who hates wrestling who wanted to see the fight that he was being worked. McGregor and Mayweather did the same thing. It works in cinema. Look at the biggest blockbusters -- babyfaces versus heels and feuds that bubble over to reach a blow-off. Wrestling predates this, folks. It goes back to the fucking Greeks. It works in politics. Trump got over doing wrestling promos and being a former heel that turned babyface to the right (wrong) kind of crowd. It works in music -- feuds between pop-stars and rivalries between labels. They're all working gimmicks too. 

Wrestling permeates everything, it's just that the modern wrestling industry, and now wrestling fans, put wrestling in a box for some reason. People aren't interested in that. Because it's fucking pantomime.


----------



## RapShepard (Jun 20, 2014)

The Raw Smackdown said:


> And that's all wrestling was back in the 90's: A fucking fad. All this other silly shit that people claim drove fans away didn't: people just got tired of wrestling and moved on the next new fad. That's it and that's all. Nothing anyone could've done or said about any of that.


Because it's easier to be in denial than just call a spade a spade.


The Wood said:


> Yeah, I did. And I stand by it. People care about wrestling, they just don't care about sports entertainment that insults their intelligence. They're horny and they're not being fucked. There hasn't been any good wrestling on TV for about about 20 years now.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wrestling having elements that can be used is not the same as folk wanting to watch wrestling. 

But I will say this though, if wrestling can be very popular again it needs to embrace the culture of today. So what that means is that it doesn't need to be some remake of the past like Midsouth. It would need to be something that embraces the self aware meme culture of today that takes into account love of self referential and self depreciating humor. Because that's what's really in right now. Lucha Underground showed that well a shot gritty outlook isn't what the public wanted.


----------



## shandcraig (Mar 23, 2008)

Lol at the wreatling elements comment. Wrestling today is failing to do exactly that. Wrestling used to have elements of everything . I disagree entirely that wrestling fans put wrestling in a box, the fucking companies are doing this.


----------



## The Raw Smackdown (Jan 8, 2017)

shandcraig said:


> Lol at the wreatling elements comment. Wrestling today is failing to do exactly that. Wrestling used to have elements of everything . I disagree entirely that wrestling fans put wrestling in a box, the fucking companies are doing this.


Nah I agree. The fans do put wrestling in a box and refuse to entertain anything else. Lucha Underground is a prime example of that.


----------



## Mike E (Feb 7, 2020)

All of these views are just one person's opinion. If you take in account illegal streaming, torrent sites and DVR viewers there are over 1 million people watching every week, that's a lot of individual opinions. So the 10 guys in this section stating how much they hate the product doesn't matter to Tony Khan. They are making money so i bet they are happy with their direction. They were growing in popularity before the world started falling apart and once things go back to "normal" I'm sure they will start trending up again, especially since they are getting more of their roster to the shows. The people who hate the shows aren't wrong because that's their opinions which their entitled to them. The people who love the show aren't wrong because that's their opinions and in the same since, they are entitled to them. The vast majority of people online and on YouTube like the product. Cornette and the folks in this forum are really the only people i see that complain about the show on a weekly basis.


----------



## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

Mike E said:


> Cornette and the folks in this forum are really the only people i see that complain about the show on a weekly basis.


Sure, if you bury your head in the sand that's the only guys complaining.

There is another forum that I read but don't post on that has an AEW section where the people are forced to be positive by a super strict admin team and even they are starting to point out the gaping flaws in AEW.

Reddit has plenty of guys pointing out the negatives as well but they use the voting system over there so the AEW fans just bury their comments at the bottom. Interestingly enough the negative comments occurring elsewhere generally coincide with what the guys on here say as well. Fancy that.

I assure you it's not just 10 people on this forum and Jim Cornette that think AEW can be bad.


----------



## El Hammerstone (Jan 11, 2020)

Chip Chipperson said:


> There is another forum that I read but don't post on that has an AEW section where the people are forced to be positive by a super strict admin team and even they are starting to point out the gaping flaws in AEW.


Is it Freakin Awesome Network forums by any chance? Because I know an admin over there was insisting that Marko Stunt was a special talent, and had even started a Michael Nakazawa appreciation thread.


----------



## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

El Hammerstone said:


> Is it Freakin Awesome Network forums by any chance? Because I know an admin over there was insisting that Marko Stunt was a special talent, and had even started a Michael Nakazawa appreciation thread.


Yeah that's the one. I could never post over there due to the embarrassing "Must be positive always" rules they have. Doesn't allow any criticism.


----------



## 304418 (Jul 2, 2014)

Cult03 said:


> Are the AEW super fans ok with this?


I don't know. I'm not one of them.



validreasoning said:


> I never thought AEW would average 1.4 million per week. That's what NBA games on ESPN/Turner average throughout the season. My original estimate for AEWs debut was pretty much spot on WWE NXT TV Ratings Thread: NO B.S. THE NUMBERS.
> 
> Niche is not a correct term to describe a business that has 9 hours of original content on two of the biggest cable channels (USA/TNT) and Fox every week. There are plenty of things that are niche that would love that amount of TV time, roller derby e.g
> 
> ...


But if they kept doing what they were doing the first few weeks consistently, there’s no reason to think that they wouldn’t be getting 1 million viewers a week either. Getting NBA numbers on a weekly basis is a good thing. A very good thing.



The Raw Smackdown said:


> They obviously were WWE fans and not wrestling fans clearly.
> 
> And yes. AEW is an alternative and every other fucking promotion out there is too. I personally don't see what AEW does is so kiddy honestly.


Compare the lower card of AEW:

Jungle Express – although it is loved and praised by everyone, even Jim Cornette, it’s very easy to see how this gimmick can be marketed to kids. Especially when Marko Stunt is considered to be Babysaurus.

Michael Nakazawa – rubs baby oil all over himself and puts his underwear into other people’s faces. Uh, nope. Sorry.

Sonny Kiss – an exotico character that gets barely used. I know of no exotico character in lucha libre that’s considered to be a serious main eventer.

Librarians – although one of them dresses like a sexy librarian, they’re both jobbers and not seen as serious threats to anyone. And they are working a gimmick that would have been seen in mid-1990s WWF.


And what constitutes the lower card of NJPW:

Toru Yano - a trickster character that hawks DVDs and operates as a spoiler in major tournaments.

YOSHI-HASHI – a loveable underdog, even when he botches a run in and faceplants into the edge of the ring.

Yujiro Takahashi – Tokyo Pimp gimmick with a scantily clad valet that appeals to males with high testosterone.

El Desperado/Taka Michinoku/Bad Luck Fale/Chase Owens – henchmen in stables.


I know I take YOSHI-HASHI, and the other NJPW lower card acts, far more seriously that the AEW lower card stars. They are more appealing to adults than the AEW lower card stars. And this does trickle up and affect what happens in the main event scene in both companies, in terms of what types of character are accepted onscreen.


AEW main event scene:

Moxley is the semi-unruly and semi-lawless DGAF loner (which is a shift from his current wild and lawless persona in NJPW), Jericho is the entertaining legend (which is a shift from his current serious asskicking persona in NJPW), Cody is the likable boss that cannot win the world title anymore (which is a shift from his former backstabbing shit-disturber persona that challenged regularly for the world title in NJPW), MJF is the irritating rich dude that’s a heel, and Omega is just avoiding the main event scene altogether (which is a shift from his NJPW persona of proving himself and breaking in, and eventually capturing the world title in an epic clash).

NJPW main event scene:

Tanahashi is the pure & lovable rockstar hero, Okada represents the new values of Japan with the obsession of status and money, Naito is the antihero rebelling against society and the status quo, KENTA is the take-no-prisoners persona after being rejected by the NJPW fans and the #2 in a major pro-gaijin faction, and Suzuki is the 50 year old badass shoot fighter.

Yes, AEW has more edge to it than WWE (and that's pushing it, because I don't see a Bobby Lashley or even a Sami Zayn messing around with this roster with the respective personas they have had over the last year). But it’s also watered down from NJPW. Do you really see the Bullet Club or Suzukigun doing skits like the Bubbly Bunch? Be honest with yourselves here. And the NJPW persona of a few AEW main eventers would make the AEW lower card roster look like legitimate chumps.

The comedy would be okay if they were self aware like Marvel movies, and they did it sparingly, but they don’t.


----------



## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

I don't follow NJPW but reading the stuff above I'd say the following would appeal to me from an international TV show:

- The big city pimp gimmick. If done correctly I always thought the sleazy underworld type gimmick is a great fit for modern serious wrestling. So many angles you can do backstage as well with the guy selling off women, hosting illegal card games for big money, a bodyguard, nice cars, big fur coats etc. Entertaining if it isn't done in a comedic way and is taken seriously

- Rockstar hero I feel I'd dig as well.

- A character obsessed with status and money is something wrestling needs more of and I'd be totally into AEW having a character like that who is actually serious about it all. Will do anything to get the championship because the championship means bigger money, bigger opportunities, more TV time etc. AEW doesn't do a good job of explaining why the World Title is important.

- I'd even be into an anti hero done properly to be honest. I feel like that's what they want Moxley to be but I just don't feel it and he flip flops every week.

- I'd even be into a grizzled vet gimmick like Suzuki does. Yeah he's old but he'll stretch the fuck out of you if he gets you.

I'm even interested in the Toru Yano gimmick because he seems like a hustler which I'd also like to see on AEW TV...


----------



## The Raw Smackdown (Jan 8, 2017)

Verbatim17 said:


> Compare the lower card of AEW:
> 
> Jungle Express – although it is loved and praised by everyone, even Jim Cornette, it’s very easy to see how this gimmick can be marketed to kids. Especially when Marko Stunt is considered to be Babysaurus.
> 
> ...


I don't really watch NJPW so you kinda lost me here but Here's the thing: Even if the product was this serious, realisitc, crap you want what makes you think it'll be any more successful than what's happening? Now. Nobody but wrestling fans are still going to watch and that's it. People are still going to look at it as silly and embarrassing. 

Let's change the perception of wrestling first. And I don't know how you do that. Some super serious show ain't gonna do it so what else is there?


----------



## The Raw Smackdown (Jan 8, 2017)

Chip Chipperson said:


> I don't follow NJPW but reading the stuff above I'd say the following would appeal to me from an international TV show:
> 
> - The big city pimp gimmick. If done correctly I always thought the sleazy underworld type gimmick is a great fit for modern serious wrestling. So many angles you can do backstage as well with the guy selling off women, hosting illegal card games for big money, a bodyguard, nice cars, big fur coats etc. Entertaining if it isn't done in a comedic way and is taken seriously
> 
> ...


So then maybe go watch NJPW then and leave AEW behind?


----------



## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

The Raw Smackdown said:


> I don't really watch NJPW so you kinda lost me here but Here's the thing: Even if the product was this serious, realisitc, crap you want what makes you think it'll be any more successful than what's happening? Now. Nobody but wrestling fans are still going to watch and that's it. People are still going to look at it as silly and embarrassing.
> 
> Let's change the perception of wrestling first. And I don't know how you do that. Some super serious show ain't gonna do it so what else is there?


Let me give you an example, maybe you have a girlfriend or a boyfriend or a best friend or whatever and you most likely have Netflix. Do you ever come across a movie you've never heard of with film actors you've never heard of but decide to give it a shot because something they're doing in the film sounds super interesting to both of you/the group and you all decide on a whim just to give it a go because it sounds so compelling to all of you? That happens to me quite often.

If you go with a more serious approach and actually offer some compelling content and stories that hook people week to week and makes them feel rewarded for tuning in you might very well bring old fans back, you might bring new fans in who have never watched wrestling before because they get caught up in the drama and they're super invested in what Brodie Lee is going to do next or what Cody has in store for Archer. You won't convince these people that wrestling is real but they might be so caught up in the drama of what you're doing week to week that they won't dare miss what is happening.

Right now current day AEW of course only wrestling fans are going to tune in because 80% of the content on the show is wrestling and the 20% of the drama is comedy bullshit that isn't compelling or interesting to anyone unless you already have emotional investment. AEW never does anything to get you chomping at the bit to see next weeks episode or anything to get you emotionally invested in anything they are doing because nobody cares about any of the characters or their stories which is why nobody cares except their loyal 700,000 or so who desperately want a WWE alternative.

Also, I'm not looking for a super serious show I'm looking for a show that isn't insulting to my intelligence. A nice mix of drama meets athletic sporting competition with the occasional big fight feel of the UFC mixed in with some compelling and interesting characters who we are made to care about. Yes, easier said than done but when you have a 45 million dollar budget you can do it.




The Raw Smackdown said:


> So then maybe go watch NJPW then and leave AEW behind?


It's an option. I like the easiness to find AEW. I can find a live stream with ease each week and if I miss an episode highlights are generally on YouTube within 12 hours of the show ending. I might give some of the characters mentioned a look though.


----------



## The Raw Smackdown (Jan 8, 2017)

Chip Chipperson said:


> Let me give you an example, maybe you have a girlfriend or a boyfriend or a best friend or whatever and you most likely have Netflix. Do you ever come across a movie you've never heard of with film actors you've never heard of but decide to give it a shot because something they're doing in the film sounds super interesting to both of you/the group and you all decide on a whim just to give it a go because it sounds so compelling to all of you? That happens to me quite often.
> 
> If you go with a more serious approach and actually offer some compelling content and stories that hook people week to week and makes them feel rewarded for tuning in you might very well bring old fans back, you might bring new fans in who have never watched wrestling before because they get caught up in the drama and they're super invested in what Brodie Lee is going to do next or what Cody has in store for Archer. You won't convince these people that wrestling is real but they might be so caught up in the drama of what you're doing week to week that they won't dare miss what is happening.
> 
> ...


Okay. So how do you accomplish all of that amist all of the content out there that craps on even the best most "Realistic" Wrestling story? Everything you said regarding the compelling content can be found elsewhere(And Netflix is one of those places mind you) And how does any of that change the perception of wrestling?


----------



## 304418 (Jul 2, 2014)

Well, considering my suggestions _were_ to help change the perception of wrestling positively, and I’m being rebuffed anyways, I’m not sure what else I can do at this point. I’m just spinning my wheel here. The point was to make the experience of watching wrestling rewarding for the viewer. Which it is not consider it to be at this point in time by the masses.

Maybe you find AEW in its current state rewarding. But I do not. And yes, I actually have no problem leaving, even though I like a number of the roster and see areas of improvement. Just because I prefer to sit back and chill while watch a show doesn't mean that I’m going to watch a show where critical discussion about it is not allowed.


----------



## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

The Raw Smackdown said:


> Okay. So how do you accomplish all of that amist all of the content out there that craps on even the best most "Realistic" Wrestling story? Everything you said regarding the compelling content can be found elsewhere(And Netflix is one of those places mind you) And how does any of that change the perception of wrestling?


You focus on the positives that wrestling can provide and other shows cannot. Wrestling can have just as good drama and compelling content as Netflix/TV it just requires some effort to get there and establish those characters and have the audience emotionally invest in these guys.

I'm just one guy but in my opinion the advantage wrestling has is the athleticism, the ability to focus on a wide range of characters (Most TV shows focus on maybe 6-8 max whilst wrestling rosters generally have about 30-40 people minimum) and the reality factor can improve things also. For example, a 10 minute brawl where two guys want to kill one another on TV isn't something that can be shown in full but can be on wrestling.

So most importantly you give us a reason to care. For example, MJF is a rich guy but how is he rich? Create another layer to making this guy hated and give a backstory. Did he inherit a large amount of money and he's just a trust fund kid or get the money from his parents? That's pretty hateable to most people. Is he as good as he says he is and actually became a self made rich guy before the age of 25 with a business? Look at how outraged people got over Trump Jr. saying "It's been difficult for me but I made it because my father gave me a small loan of a million dollars". MJF could totally be that but he's not given any depth past "Okay, he's somehow rich and he's a bit of a dick about it"

Darby Allin is another one. He's had a rough life but it's never really been pointed out on TV why he paints his face and is a dark character he just is. Maybe we have him going back to his hometown and explaining his dark past, maybe we find out that he had alcoholic drug addicted parents and he left home at a young age, maybe we find out that he has no formal education and his only chance at making it in life is climbing to the top of AEW and each loss takes him a step down which breaks him. Maybe we talk to Darby's teachers at school who say he was this great kid with plenty of potential but the support of his parents wasn't there and it caused him to go off the tracks but now he's a TV wrestling star and they couldn't be prouder every week when he pops up on TV. Again, it's a relatable story to some people and it rallies people behind Darby Allin because we find out why he fights, why it's important for him to beat Cody, why it's important for him to succeed because he can't really afford not to.

With Brodie Lee I pitched this idea yesterday or the day before but how much more compelling would he be if he was a guy going through the AEW roster trying to actively recruit for The Dark Order focusing on guys insecurities and promising to fix them? Marko not taken seriously because he's small? Brodie can change that. Darby had a rough life? Brodie can fix that and ensure he's a success, Dustin Rhodes feeling the pressure as a veteran wrestler struggling to make it against the top stars of AEW? Brodie and The Dark Order can help...for a price. Then there are all the TV esque angles you can do with it to really create that can't miss feel and imagine the feuds. Marko gets brainwashed by Brodie so Jungle Boy and Luchasaurus jump in, Dustin turns on Cody to join The Dark Order leading to a blood feud between Cody and Brodie etc.

There are a heap of other examples as well. Matt Hardy visiting a psychiatrist to see what is going on in that brain of his, Jericho living the rockstar celebrity lifestyle with his goons, backstory as to why Jungle Boy is Jungle Boy despite being the son of a celebrity, the underdog story of Kenny trying to work his way back to the top of AEW after taking a tumble, Billy Gunn the veteran trying to show his son how good he is and prove he's still the man, Jake and Archer slowly descending more and more into madness, Britt Baker becoming more and more successful as a person but needing that AEW Women's Title etc etc.

Mix relatable stories with amazing athletics and beautiful women (More sex sells segments is what wrestling needs in general I think) and I think AEW could be more attractive to the casual fan or dare I say even the non fan who just happens to be scrolling the information listings on their box.


----------



## ObsoleteMule (Sep 4, 2016)

Chip Chipperson said:


> I don't follow NJPW but reading the stuff above I'd say the following would appeal to me from an international TV show:
> 
> - The big city pimp gimmick. If done correctly I always thought the sleazy underworld type gimmick is a great fit for modern serious wrestling. So many angles you can do backstage as well with the guy selling off women, hosting illegal card games for big money, a bodyguard, nice cars, big fur coats etc. Entertaining if it isn't done in a comedic way and is taken seriously
> 
> ...


Lol I’ve been saying this since this thread started. A good portion of fans on here dont want a north american style product. You guys basically want NJPW, which is a pretty great promotion.

I hoped AEW would take the NJPW approach and bring it to North America, but they came with the same sports entertainment shit WWE does.

I get your feelings of wanting that more serious NJPW kind of product (trust me, thats all I wanted) but I feel AEW doesnt want that at all.


----------



## The Raw Smackdown (Jan 8, 2017)

Verbatim17 said:


> Well, considering my suggestions _were_ to help change the perception of wrestling positively, and I’m being rebuffed anyways, I’m not sure what else I can do at this point. I’m just spinning my wheel here. The point was to make the experience of watching wrestling rewarding for the viewer. Which it is not consider it to be at this point in time by the masses.
> 
> Maybe you find AEW in its current state rewarding. But I do not. And yes, I actually have no problem leaving, even though I like a number of the roster and see areas of improvement. Just because I prefer to sit back and chill while watch a show doesn't mean that I’m going to watch a show where critical discussion about it is not allowed.


Why do y'all fall back on this WE CAN'T SAY ANYTHING BAD ABOUT AEW LOLZ! When nobody is even saying that. Critique it all you want but you better be ready for people to not agree with you and challenge you on that. Take it like a grown up and don't act like a bitch and make shit up when someone disagrees with you. Your Opinon is YOUR FUCKING OPINION nothing more nothing less. Period.


----------



## The Raw Smackdown (Jan 8, 2017)

Chip Chipperson said:


> You focus on the positives that wrestling can provide and other shows cannot. Wrestling can have just as good drama and compelling content as Netflix/TV it just requires some effort to get there and establish those characters and have the audience emotionally invest in these guys.
> 
> I'm just one guy but in my opinion the advantage wrestling has is the athleticism, the ability to focus on a wide range of characters (Most TV shows focus on maybe 6-8 max whilst wrestling rosters generally have about 30-40 people minimum) and the reality factor can improve things also. For example, a 10 minute brawl where two guys want to kill one another on TV isn't something that can be shown in full but can be on wrestling.
> 
> ...


Those are sound Ideas. I can see them bringing back lapsed fans but that's about it honestly.


----------



## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

The Raw Smackdown said:


> Those are sound Ideas. I can see them bringing back lapsed fans but that's about it honestly.


Sure for right now you're probably correct in that nobody would pay attention but they've paid Mike Tyson what I assume is a decent sum of money to come in but they don't have their ducks in a row so it's a waste. However, if you hire Mike Tyson for a night and you have a fight with a real fight feel (Similar to Hager/Moxley) and a few compelling stories such as Darby or MJF or anything else I mentioned above you might have people go "I like this guy, I'm coming back next week".

Tyson to my knowledge has many blue collar fans who can relate to his rags to riches story so of my above examples I'd probably do a segment where MJF is being a total cockhead to someone flaunting his daddy's money around. Blue collar people hate that type of thing so they MIGHT come back next week to see someone kick his ass.

Also, if that stuff was on the first week of AEW's TV or things like that (I'm not saying my ideas are the only way to go) AND they stuck with it I would go out on a limb and say they remain at over a million people long term. AEW just aren't good at giving people reasons to care about their characters which is why it's just smart marks watching their show.


----------



## Mike E (Feb 7, 2020)

Chip Chipperson said:


> Sure, if you bury your head in the sand that's the only guys complaining.
> 
> There is another forum that I read but don't post on that has an AEW section where the people are forced to be positive by a super strict admin team and even they are starting to point out the gaping flaws in AEW.
> 
> ...


I follow alot of different wrestling sites and the bigger YouTube channels that get tons of views and like I said all those platforms are very positive about AEW. I know that there are way more then 10 people and Jim Cornette that hate AEW. I was just saying that all the time I spend reading or watching wrestling content the 10 guys or so in this forum and Cornette are the only people i see that are dumping on the product. Like I said though you're opinion is not wrong because that is how you feel. Its just that everyone has an opinion and it seems that the Khans are happy and making money, so I'm sure their opinion is that they enjoy what they are putting out. They know that they can't make everyone happy but I'm sure they see the outpouring of support online and know that they are pleasing the majority.


----------



## bdon (Nov 12, 2019)

AEW simply doesn’t give enough time to character-building, unless you’re a WWE guy. Which is where you need people who specifically focus on the booking.

Could really use stronger leadership altogether. Seems there are too many chiefs and not enough Indians. I find myself questioning why Kenny wanted the book and responsibilities given he’s never worked weekly television, but then you realize if he didn’t have power, how much further down the card would they book him?


----------



## dan the marino (Oct 22, 2006)

Alright_Mate said:


> And don’t get me started on Ortiz, he is one of the main reasons I just had to stop watching, his whole act and his constant over selling is cringeworthy as fuck.


Ortiz? Out of everyone you could possibly and understandably complain about you choose Ortiz? Sounds like a good think you gave up watching wrestling right now because he's as generic a heel as they come kid, and he's not terrible at it either like a hundred other names you could say. He's not ridiculously over the top or anything like that. In fact he's a pretty average henchman which is all he's presented as. He's not awful he's not amazing and he plays his role well. Idk it just comes as you trying to aim for what you thought what was an easy target for clout and missing horribly.


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

The Raw Smackdown said:


> I don't really watch NJPW so you kinda lost me here but Here's the thing: Even if the product was this serious, realisitc, crap you want what makes you think it'll be any more successful than what's happening? Now. Nobody but wrestling fans are still going to watch and that's it. People are still going to look at it as silly and embarrassing.
> 
> Let's change the perception of wrestling first. And I don't know how you do that. Some super serious show ain't gonna do it so what else is there?


So let’s just give up. A good, serious, gripping show could absolutely do it. People think so lowly of wrestling they thought The Miz on Talking Smack was a _shoot_. It’s so easy to work people. You haven’t tried the obvious thing and are shrugging your shoulders like Ned Flanders’s parents — “We’ve tried nothing and nothing works.” 



The Raw Smackdown said:


> So then maybe go watch NJPW then and leave AEW behind?


Be careful what you wish for. 



The Raw Smackdown said:


> Why do y'all fall back on this WE CAN'T SAY ANYTHING BAD ABOUT AEW LOLZ! When nobody is even saying that. Critique it all you want but you better be ready for people to not agree with you and challenge you on that. Take it like a grown up and don't act like a bitch and make shit up when someone disagrees with you. Your Opinon is YOUR FUCKING OPINION nothing more nothing less. Period.


You don’t challenge anything though. You rant and rave about it just being people’s opinions and leave it at that. You never raise an actual point that contends anything.


----------



## Alright_Mate (Jul 21, 2014)

dan the marino said:


> Ortiz? Out of everyone you could possibly and understandably complain about you choose Ortiz? Sounds like a good think you gave up watching wrestling right now because he's as generic a heel as they come kid, and he's not terrible at it either like a hundred other names you could say. He's not ridiculously over the top or anything like that. In fact he's a pretty average henchman which is all he's presented as. He's not awful he's not amazing and he plays his role well. Idk it just comes as you trying to aim for what you thought what was an easy target for clout and missing horribly.


   idiot.

I don’t like the guy because he is cringeworthy as fuck. His whole claw thing is stupid, his facial expressions make him look like a deranged version of the crazy frog and his over selling is ridiculous.

Everyone dislikes certain wrestlers and out of everyone in AEW he annoys me the most, some of the stuff he does is exactly what wrestling doesn’t need.

But that’s my opinion, I’m entitled to it.

Your grammar is a bit wishy-washy but thanks for the input


----------



## The Raw Smackdown (Jan 8, 2017)

The Wood said:


> So let’s just give up. A good, serious, gripping show could absolutely do it. People think so lowly of wrestling they thought The Miz on Talking Smack was a _shoot_. It’s so easy to work people. You haven’t tried the obvious thing and are shrugging your shoulders like Ned Flanders’s parents — “We’ve tried nothing and nothing works.”
> 
> 
> 
> ...


1. I didn't say don't try. I said what you think will work, won't. 

2. Yeah, whatever. AEW fans ain't gonna flick over to NJPW.

3. I and others presented good points all the time. You just don't see it.


----------



## 3venflow (Feb 3, 2019)

Personally, I'm enjoying AEW. Not so much of late but it has been hamstrung by COVID-19, as WWE has.

I think with a full roster and crowd it's an entertaining product with production values that make it seem quite big league.

In a way it makes me think of a spiritual successor to WCW. And I know WCW fucked up a lot, but they also had great highs and competition is good for the industry.

I'm not a big fan of the Brodie Lee/Mox feud, simply because someone is going to come out of this looking bad and ideally you'd want to protect both. Brodie impresses me for his size, but the Dark Order is a weak gimmick. Maybe they should have brought my G Raven in with him and recreated the Flock?

We must remember, AEW is still in its infancy. It could take years to fully cultivate its identity and roster. There are some fantastic talents on there (I really like MJF and Archer) and then there are guys I wouldn't book for a backyard show like Joey Janela and Marko Stunt.

With time, roster refinement and common sense I can see them becoming a serious threat to WWE.

One thing they could use is some more genuine star power. Jericho is truly outstanding but no one feels quite on his level. For me, one name could take AEW to the next level: CM Punk - it might be impossible to get him but they should make every effort.

Going back to MJF, he is a serious talent. He has the 'it' factor that most of the cookie cutter wrestlers of the modern era have lacked and could become a big, big star.

As for Archer, he's incredibly impressive and should be pushed to main event level.

If Kazuchika Okada ever decides to try America like Nakamura did, they should also throw everything at him. He is the greatest wrestler of the modern era and has talent + style that would transmit well to US audiences.


----------



## 304418 (Jul 2, 2014)

The Raw Smackdown said:


> Why do y'all fall back on this WE CAN'T SAY ANYTHING BAD ABOUT AEW LOLZ! When nobody is even saying that. Critique it all you want but you better be ready for people to not agree with you and challenge you on that. Take it like a grown up and don't act like a bitch and make shit up when someone disagrees with you. Your Opinon is YOUR FUCKING OPINION nothing more nothing less. Period.


Cause its true. It’s totally understandable if you do not want AEW to receive relentless negative criticism like TNA & Dixie Carter, but nonstop skepticism on if ideas will work, or suggesting a fan is trying to make AEW for their own personal enjoyment only instead of the fanbase at large doesn’t really help either. Criticism, both positive and negative, is healthy.

BTW, if you don’t want to “look like a bitch” and “look like a grown up,” not having your post littered with sporadic sentences in all caps all over the place would help with that perception a lot.


----------



## The Raw Smackdown (Jan 8, 2017)

Verbatim17 said:


> Cause its true. It’s totally understandable if you do not want AEW to receive relentless negative criticism like TNA & Dixie Carter, but nonstop skepticism on if ideas will work, or suggesting a fan is trying to make AEW for their own personal enjoyment only instead of the fanbase at large doesn’t really help either. Criticism, both positive and negative, is healthy.
> 
> BTW, if you don’t want to “look like a bitch” and “look like a grown up,” not having your post littered with sporadic sentences in all caps all over the place would help with that perception a lot.


Baby this is the internet. I'll type how I see fit. You don't like it? Tough. Don't tell me to do shit. 

And no it's not true. Believe it or not I also have things I don't like about AEW that I express. Y'all can critique AEW all you want but here's the thing: There's criticism and then there's constant bitching and arrogance and that's not healthy.

Like I said to you and others: Grow Up.


----------



## shandcraig (Mar 23, 2008)

I think AEW is good it just has a lot to work to go too which is a given being new and more importantly needs to find its Identity. Oh and have less geeks

This is the weekly show im talking about because i think they have been killing it with ppvs 


But why the fuck are we not allowed to point out what could make it be better with put people needing to say we're the problem. If your girlfriend aint that fucking good to you and you dont talk about it well actually you're the problem. Settle for whatever someone represents you.

A modern world when relationships and marriages dont fucking work anyone because no one can talk it out or put in the work.

AEW is listening and knows a lot has to be done!!!


----------



## RapShepard (Jun 20, 2014)

The Raw Smackdown said:


> Baby this is the internet. I'll type how I see fit. *You don't like it? Tough. Don't tell me to do shit.*
> 
> And no it's not true. Believe it or not I also have things I don't like about AEW that I express. Y'all can critique AEW all you want but here's the thing: There's criticism and then there's constant bitching and arrogance and that's not healthy.
> 
> *Like I said to you and others: Grow Up.*


I mean couldn't you kind of use that advice for yourself?


----------



## The Raw Smackdown (Jan 8, 2017)

RapShepard said:


> I mean couldn't you kind of use that advice for yourself?


Except I'm not telling anyone to do anything?


----------



## Foreign Object (Mar 18, 2017)

Marko Stunt is AEW’s Barry Horowitz. One day he’s going to steal a win and everybody will be absolutely stunned.


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

The Raw Smackdown said:


> 1. I didn't say don't try. I said what you think will work, won't.
> 
> 2. Yeah, whatever. AEW fans ain't gonna flick over to NJPW.
> 
> 3. I and others presented good points all the time. You just don't see it.


1. I can explain why it would work better than what is going on now. Can you explain why it won’t?

2. The point is that telling people to stop watching AEW is a pretty bad business model.

3. You’ve presented literally nothing. All you’ve said here is that “your ideas won’t work.” Anyone can say that. It’s not a point. Make a fucking point. 



The Raw Smackdown said:


> Baby this is the internet. I'll type how I see fit. You don't like it? Tough. Don't tell me to do shit.
> 
> And no it's not true. Believe it or not I also have things I don't like about AEW that I express. Y'all can critique AEW all you want but here's the thing: There's criticism and then there's constant bitching and arrogance and that's not healthy.
> 
> Like I said to you and others: Grow Up.


People wouldn’t partake in “constant bitching” if the show was actually good. 



The Raw Smackdown said:


> Except I'm not telling anyone to do anything?


You literally just told people to “grow up.”


----------



## Deathiscoming (Feb 1, 2019)

AEW has been terrible. I'd rather watch bits and chunks from Smackdown or Raw...and I hate WWE shows and don't even bother with NXT..This shows how big of a letdown AEW have been..


----------



## The Wood (Nov 7, 2003)

Deathiscoming said:


> AEW has been terrible. I'd rather watch bits and chunks from Smackdown or Raw...and I hate WWE shows and don't even bother with NXT..This shows how big of a letdown AEW have been..


When you're making about as much sense as Raw and SmackDown, there is a MAJOR issue.


----------



## Dizzie (Jun 22, 2019)

I wont lie I was hoping for aew to be like a American version of new Japan pro wrestling but hasnt turned out like that and they seem more like TNA'ish around the time line of Hogan and bischoff being there.


----------



## Danielallen1410 (Nov 21, 2016)

Dizzie said:


> I wont lie I was hoping for aew to be like a American version of new Japan pro wrestling but hasnt turned out like that and they seem more like TNA'ish around the time line of Hogan and bischoff being there.


Nah thats too far, it’s nowhere near as bad, is more like tna between 05 and 09 for me.


----------



## Cult03 (Oct 31, 2016)

Danielallen1410 said:


> Nah thats too far, it’s nowhere near as bad, is more like tna between 05 and 09 for me.


You're severely understating how good TNA was at that time!


----------



## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

Cult03 said:


> You're severely understating how good TNA was at that time!


Yeah, Daniel clearly hasn't watched much from that time period. The era he is saying sucked are considered TNA's best years. 04-09 and 2011-2013 are considered the strong time periods for TNA.


----------



## Thebronxgirl (Nov 8, 2019)

I'm enjoying what AEW is doing. I don't get how a wrestling fan can not appreciate at least some things about AEW, but of course they can make improvements. I think because a good amount of the roster came from NJPW, ROH and Indies..I can understand those that were expecting that. I thought the Elite was going to be similar to their NJPW personas. But have to remember there are different people that book and write the stories for those promotions. AEW is more like their BTE style. AEW sometimes do have a cartoonish energy. I like to call it frat boy wrestling lol. With that said the dark order, best friends and orange cassidy had to grow on me..I found them a little too silly. Marko Stunt get a lot of shit. He is no different from Luchasaurus imo. I don't take him or marko seriously. It's not like Lucha is a kane or undertaker type character. The more I look at marko I see why he fits right in with them. The only one I take seriously is Jungle Boy. I like Lucha Express as a group, but I know what their purpose is.


----------



## domotime2 (Apr 28, 2014)

AEW has been my favorite wreslting in over 2 decades. I'm legit invested in wins and losses, like a lot of the characters, lovvvvvvvvvvve their use of vignettes and making every show unique, and i legit laugh at a lot of the shit (mostly Jericho)


----------



## Chip Chipperson (Jun 29, 2019)

domotime2 said:


> AEW has been my favorite wreslting in over 2 decades. I'm legit invested in wins and losses, like a lot of the characters, lovvvvvvvvvvve their use of vignettes and making every show unique, and i legit laugh at a lot of the shit (mostly Jericho)


How is anything they do unique? They're doing the same comedy garbage that everyone on the indies is doing featuring a large number of guys that we've already seen before.

If you find it funny that's fine but lets not pretend they are unique.


----------



## domotime2 (Apr 28, 2014)

Chip Chipperson said:


> How is anything they do unique? They're doing the same comedy garbage that everyone on the indies is doing featuring a large number of guys that we've already seen before.
> 
> If you find it funny that's fine but lets not pretend they are unique.


They make every show unique by changing up the format. It doesn't always start with a match, or interview, or an interview in the ring. There's no formula, which i love. Makes you want to watch the whole thing. I don't know what's going on in the indies, i've only watched WWE (WCW) for 30 years.


----------



## 304418 (Jul 2, 2014)

Dizzie said:


> I wont lie I was hoping for aew to be like a American version of new Japan pro wrestling but hasnt turned out like that and they seem more like TNA'ish around the time line of Hogan and bischoff being there.


This thing is, that was completely the case with AEW with the string of summer PPVs they did last year, from DoN to All Out. Not just in terms of in ring actions, but with the presentation being like a sport, which helped them to stand out and be taken seriously as the major alternative to WWE (NXT included). And those shows were wildly praised in general. These PPVs were likely a significant factor as to why the hype of Dynamite`s debut was getting a lot of buzz from other sport talk shows, and the first two episodes of Dynamite were doing NBA numbers i.e. has mainstream appeal. It was already WWE level out of the gate.

Then AEW switched over to a more WWE-lite/TNA presentation style for Dynamite and the tv specials, and I don`t know why. Yes, the format has to be modified somewhat due to that fact that it’s weekly tv. But I don`t know if it was a decision by tv executives or by AEW executives. And a lot of the presentation and aesthetics AEW was using have been taken by other promotions and NXT too, even though AEW is the promotion that needs them most, since that where a lot of the eyeballs are at or could be at in the future. And will help AEW far more that those other promotions.

I think it says a lot that AEW should borrow from NXT to have a more sports like presentation, instead of the other way around.


----------

