# The Top 50 Reasons Why Fans Don't Go to Indie Shows



## smokinglizard

This is the first of a 50 part series discussing the Top 50 Reasons Wrestling Fans Don't Go to Indie Wrestling Shows. While I'm coming at this with a humorous approach, I'm dead serious about the bottom line behind each installment.

In this installment we discuss Reason #50: Cheap improvisations.

Imagine this -- you're sitting at an indie show, watching the first match of the night. It's a botch-fest between two really green rookies, neither of whom is in any semblance of shape. The match goes back and forth a bit until, mercifully, the finish arrives.

The referee, as anyone would expect, calls for the bell.

But instead of hearing the expected Ding! Ding! Ding! you hear Clunk! Clunk! Clunk!

Confused, you look over to the timekeeper's table where, to your shock, you realize that this promotion is using an old paint bucket as a ring bell. Like the one below.









I'm not making this up. This really happened, and I witnessed it. The promoter of this show was so cheap, he substituted an old Home Depot paint bucket for a ring bell. It was "rung" by the timekeeper striking it like a drum with a long screwdriver.

At another show I went to not long ago, the promoter evidently couldn't afford ring steps for his ring, so he improvised by stacking some old wood pallets on top of each other.

Again, not making this up.

This is a problem pervasive throughout the world of independent pro wrestling: Promoters are cheap.

Laughably cheap.

It's laughable because it doesn't take a quantum scientist to figure out that using a bucket as a ring bell or old pallets as ring steps projects a ridiculously low rent image to your fans -- your paying customers.

For crying out loud, you can buy a ring bell brand new from an online vendor for under $100 bucks. Here's a link: http://www.allprosportsrings.com/accessories/ringbell.html

And can't afford real ring steps? Well how about just pick up a Rubbermaid plastic step from Walmart for $15? Here's a picture.









Sure, it's not a perfect solution, but it looks a heck of a lot better than stacked wood pallets. This is a subject I really hit on in my new book _Fixing the Indies_ -- that as professionals, we need to pay exceedingly close attention to the details. Everything -- and I mean everything -- has to look topnotch.

Bottom line: If we want people to come to indie shows, make 'em look good.


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## Neutronic

*Re: The Top 50 Reasons Why Fans Don't Go to Indie Shows - Part 1 of 50*

Wait....what? Huh?

Are you really going to make 50 threads about this, trying to promote your book?


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## 189558

*Re: The Top 50 Reasons Why Fans Don't Go to Indie Shows - Part 1 of 50*

Gotta say I'm looking forward to reading this other 49 installments of this. The only indie show I've ever been to watch ROH (their first Indianapolis show). So never really saw anything that cheap, but I did get invited to a lot of shows in the Indianapolis area (only company called FEW especially). Anyways, this was actually a fun little read and can't wait to see more.

Keep 'em coming!


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## reDREDD

*Re: The Top 50 Reasons Why Fans Don't Go to Indie Shows - Part 1 of 50*

talk about a niche book

Wrestling is already only enjoyed a minority. And indy wrestling, is only enjoyed by like 10% of that minority. And so you wrote a book complaining about the indies, for the people who dont like them?

What is that, like five people max?


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## smokinglizard

*Re: The Top 50 Reasons Why Fans Don't Go to Indie Shows - Part 1 of 50*



Neutronic said:


> Wait....what? Huh?
> 
> Are you really going to make 50 threads about this, trying to promote your book?


There are 49 more installments to come!



Otaku said:


> Gotta say I'm looking forward to reading this other 49 installments of this. The only indie show I've ever been to watch ROH (their first Indianapolis show). So never really saw anything that cheap, but I did get invited to a lot of shows in the Indianapolis area (only company called FEW especially). Anyways, this was actually a fun little read and can't wait to see more.
> 
> Keep 'em coming!


They're coming!

You've never been to a real indie? You don't know what you're missing! ROH doesn't qualify as an indie anymore. They're big league now.



redeadening said:


> talk about a niche book
> 
> Wrestling is already only enjoyed a minority. And indy wrestling, is only enjoyed by like 10% of that minority. And so you wrote a book complaining about the indies, for the people who dont like them?
> 
> What is that, like five people max?


Huh? No. The book is about improving indie pro wrestling to make it more profitable and mainstream. It's targeted at anyone who's involved in or a fan of indie wrestling. I often humorously poke fun of the current state of affairs to point out what's wrong it in order to make it better.


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## Pat9010

*Re: The Top 50 Reasons Why Fans Don't Go to Indie Shows - Part 1 of 50*

ROH is hardly "Big-League"


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## smokinglizard

*Re: The Top 50 Reasons Why Fans Don't Go to Indie Shows - Part 1 of 50*



Pat9010 said:


> ROH is hardly "Big-League"


Fair enough.

How 'bout we call them mid tier?

Too big to be an indie, too small to be a big league.


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## Neutronic

*Re: The Top 50 Reasons Why Fans Don't Go to Indie Shows - Part 1 of 50*

Someone making 50 threads to promote their book really leaves a bad taste in my mouth

But if the mods have no problem with the spam, I guess more power to you


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## reDREDD

*Re: The Top 50 Reasons Why Fans Don't Go to Indie Shows - Part 1 of 50*



smokinglizard said:


> There are 49 more installments to come!
> 
> 
> 
> They're coming!
> 
> You've never been to a real indie? You don't know what you're missing! ROH doesn't qualify as an indie anymore. They're big league now.
> 
> 
> 
> Huh? No. The book is about improving indie pro wrestling to make it more profitable and mainstream. It's targeted at anyone who's involved in or a fan of indie wrestling. I often humorously poke fun of the current state of affairs to point out what's wrong it in order to make it better.


It looks like a fun read and I look forward to more of these posts, but Im just saying, whats your target demographic?


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## Horselover Fat

*Re: The Top 50 Reasons Why Fans Don't Go to Indie Shows - Part 1 of 50*

hey i heard theres a book everyone is talking about is this it


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## scrilla

*Re: The Top 50 Reasons Why Fans Don't Go to Indie Shows - Part 1 of 50*

i don't think everyone is talking about your book. false advertising.


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## seabs

*Re: The Top 50 Reasons Why Fans Don't Go to Indie Shows - Part 1 of 50*

*I'm fine with these btw if you keep them going. No harm in him promoting his book in here seeing as it's relevant. *


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## Rah

*Re: The Top 50 Reasons Why Fans Don't Go to Indie Shows - Part 1 of 50*

Perhaps, though, OP needs to understand how paragraphing works - that each new sentence is not cause for a separated paragraph of speech.

This isn't a dig at you, but rather a helpful criticism on how to layout your work in a more inviting and easily readable manner. It gives it a higher sense of credibility, too, when written works are formatted right as it shows to others that you're serious about your work. Relying on the "I'm not making this up" line is another gripe I have with your post. The more someone plugs that something is, indeed, a true occurrence the more it comes across as made up. I'm not accusing you of lying, as I'm sure you really did witness these things, but others may feel you are. The onus is on you to make yourself believable and confident in your posting. If you doubt your audience then your audience will doubt you. Simply leave it off and if someone disputes your claim you can then back yourself up on it (even naming the promotion/event if need be).

That aside, what promotions have you seen it in? I merely ask because, as someone from outside the continent, I'm not able to access the market noting the complete lack of any feds on my side. From what I've seen, though (and this is going on a handful of DVDs or Youtube videos for promotions such as AIW, IPW, 2CW, Steeltown or AAW), the Indies may not have the monetary funding that the bigger leagues (RoH*/WWE/TNA) posses but they do seem to put together a reasonably well showing.

(* and I suppose I shouldn't class RoH in that category but, as someone stated, they don't fit completely in the Indy demographic either)


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## jawbreaker

*Re: The Top 50 Reasons Why Fans Don't Go to Indie Shows - Part 1 of 50*



Seabs said:


> *I'm fine with these btw if you keep them going. No harm in him promoting his book in here seeing as it's relevant. *


Maybe keeping them in one thread would be better than 50 new ones though?


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## Platt

*Re: The Top 50 Reasons Why Fans Don't Go to Indie Shows - Part 1 of 50*



jawbreaker said:


> Maybe keeping them in one thread would be better than 50 new ones though?


Yes it would.


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## USAUSA1

*Re: The Top 50 Reasons Why Fans Don't Go to Indie Shows - Part 1 of 50*

Just for the record, local indie shows are the greatest. I remember watching Damien Wayne vs. Scotty Blaze matches in NWA Virginia back in the day. Some of the greatest matches you will ever see. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3917015815888985945

I think promotions like ROH,PWG,Chikara,and even CZW took some of the cheap essence out of indy wrestling that I love from the 90's. Despite ECW popularity, they still had that east coast cheap indy vibe going that people love to admire.


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## smokinglizard

*Re: The Top 50 Reasons Why Fans Don't Go to Indie Shows - Part 1 of 50*



Seabs said:


> *I'm fine with these btw if you keep them going. No harm in him promoting his book in here seeing as it's relevant. *


Thanks! I really appreciate the opportunity to discuss the book with folks here.



Rah said:


> Perhaps, though, OP needs to understand how paragraphing works - that each new sentence is not cause for a separated paragraph of speech.
> 
> This isn't a dig at you, but rather a helpful criticism on how to layout your work in a more inviting and easily readable manner. It gives it a higher sense of credibility, too, when written works are formatted right as it shows to others that you're serious about your work. Relying on the "I'm not making this up" line is another gripe I have with your post. The more someone plugs that something is, indeed, a true occurrence the more it comes across as made up. I'm not accusing you of lying, as I'm sure you really did witness these things, but others may feel you are. The onus is on you to make yourself believable and confident in your posting. If you doubt your audience then your audience will doubt you. Simply leave it off and if someone disputes your claim you can then back yourself up on it (even naming the promotion/event if need be).
> 
> That aside, what promotions have you seen it in? I merely ask because, as someone from outside the continent, I'm not able to access the market noting the complete lack of any feds on my side. From what I've seen, though (and this is going on a handful of DVDs or Youtube videos for promotions such as AIW, IPW, 2CW, Steeltown or AAW), the Indies may not have the monetary funding that the bigger leagues (RoH*/WWE/TNA) posses but they do seem to put together a reasonably well showing.
> 
> (* and I suppose I shouldn't class RoH in that category but, as someone stated, they don't fit completely in the Indy demographic either)


Thanks for the feedback! I always appreciate constructive, well thought out feedback. I can tell by the way you write that you are very intelligent.

Writing style is a subjective thing. That said, I do want to point out that writing for the web -- particularly for discussion forums -- is very different from writing for print. The golden rule of thumb, generally speaking, is when writing for the web, keep paragraphs to less than 50 words. This is due to the fact that _most_ people read web content differently than they read printed content.

Here's a great article series that discusses this very subject: http://www.gerrymcgovern.com/guide_write_06.htm



> Relying on the "I'm not making this up" line is another gripe I have with your post.


"I'm not making this up" is an angle used by _many_ humor columnists like Dave Barry, Art Buchwald, and Sheila Moss and is not to be taken literally. It's a way of humorously emphasizing how absurd what you're writing is. Here Buchwald makes mention of it in his book _The Art of Column Writing:_ I'm not making this up!

Here's a sample of my book so you can get a feel for my style when writing for print: http://www.fixingtheindies.com/IndiesSample.pdf



jawbreaker said:


> Maybe keeping them in one thread would be better than 50 new ones though?


Done!

My original thought was to put each installment of the 50 part series in its own thread so that readers could easily tell when a new installment was posted, but if 50 separate threads will annoy folks, I understand. I'll keep them to one thread.


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## smokinglizard

*Re: The Top 50 Reasons Why Fans Don't Go to Indie Shows - Part 1 of 50*

This is part two of a 50 part series discussing the_ Top 50 Reasons Wrestling Fans Don't Go to Indie Wrestling Shows._

In the last installment we discussed cheap improvisations like using a paint bucket as a ring bell and wood pallets as ring steps.

In this installment we discuss Reason #49: Duct tape.

Yes, this stuff:










Oh, how I wish I were the king of the world for a day so that I could issue a decree forever barring the sale of duct tape to pro wrestling promoters.

Why, you ask?

Because indie promoters have this strange propensity to attempt to "fix" everything with duct tape. Got a tear in the ring mat? Duct tape. Got a bare spot on the ropes? Duct tape. Got a missing turnbuckle pad? Fill a pillow case with rags and cover it in, you guessed it, duct tape.

Now I understand the logic behind performing a small cosmetic repair on something that otherwise is perfectly good. For example, if you have a small, dime-sized hole in your mat canvas, you could get a seamstress to stitch it up, because no one woud ever even notice it, and your canvas is otherwise still perfectly good.

But "repairing" major tears in your mat with duct tape doesn't fall into this category. "Repairing" major tears in your mat with duct tape is just plain awful.

Take a gander at this picture:










Now, honestly, would you expect a fan to conclude that this is a show worth paying hard-earned money to see? Forget the guys in the ring. Just look at the ring itself.

Duct tape city.

For real?

Now I have nothing against duct tape, I guess. If, for example, I was building a fort out of cardboard boxes for my 8 year old niece. If I were doing that, duct tape would do a fine job of holding that fort together.

But that's about it. Duct tape is certainly not good for repairing anything to do with a wrestling ring. In fact, I am so bothered by this, I wrote the phrase "duct tape" 58 times in my new book _Fixing the Indies_.

Do you _ever_ see WWE tape up their mats, turnbuckles, or ropes with duct tape? Of course not.

Nothing screams low rent louder than this. 

And not many sane fans are going to pay their hard-earned cash to watch a low rent show.

Duh.

Bottom line: You want your customers to believe you're offering them a quality product for their money. Putting duct tape on your ring (or wrestling boots or signs or banners) is going to send exactly the opposite message.

Ditch the duct tape and buy a new canvas, for crying out loud.


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## Virgil_85

*Re: The Top 50 Reasons Why Fans Don't Go to Indie Shows - Part 1 of 50*

The topic on cheap improvisation reminds of a story Colt Cabana told of Chris Hero chasing CM Punk around with an empty cardboard box and Punk running for his life while Colt tried not to piss himself laughing. So yeah, sometimes it can work if you're taking the micky, but I agree with you that being cheap tends to make the product suffer. 

Great topic btw.


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## just1988

*Re: The Top 50 Reasons Why Fans Don't Go to Indie Shows - Part 1 of 50*



Pat9010 said:


> ROH is hardly "Big-League"


It is a big league, in the grand scheme of things. You have to remember that around the world there are 100s of wrestling promotions with ROH being in the top 10 on the plant, so overall they are a big league. They're not the biggest, they're not huge but they are big.

As far the at OP goes, I'm not too bothered about the ring-steps thing or the paint bucket ring bell if the promoters cannot afford them or want to save money then they could cut the ring steps out of the show all together. I'd prefer a bell but they could easily get a cheap hand, shake style bell.


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## Certified G

Ah yeah duct tape. IWA-MS used it all over their mat, and not only black tape on a black canvas, but also red tape on a black canvas lol. CZW used to have duct taped tears in their mat too, but I think they got a new canvas/ring, not sure though.


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## Neutronic

I've never met a fan that didnt want to go to a show because of Duct Tape

Starting to realize this guy may not be all he cracks himself up to be


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## seabs

*I wouldn't call it a reason for a fan not going to the show but yeah it's make the product look really cheap and isn't going to help if someone's in two minds. Gives off a vibe of if they can't be bothered about the product then why should we which isn't good.*


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## smokinglizard

Neutronic said:


> I've never met a fan that didnt want to go to a show because of Duct Tape
> 
> Starting to realize this guy may not be all he cracks himself up to be


Interesting conclusion. See below.



Seabs said:


> *I wouldn't call it a reason for a fan not going to the show but yeah it's make the product look really cheap and isn't going to help if someone's in two minds. Gives off a vibe of if they can't be bothered about the product then why should we which isn't good.*


Exactly!

Now without further ado, here's part 3!

*This is part three of a 50 part series discussing the Top 50 Reasons Wrestling Fans Don't Go to Indie Wrestling Shows.*

In this installment we discuss Reason #48: Low ticket prices.

I know to many of you reading along, this flies in the face of ancient contemporary wisdom, but if you want more people to come to your indie wrestling shows, you need to _raise_ your prices.

I can hear it now: "Norm! You're crazy! You don't know anything about the business at all! If you raise prices, no one would come!"

Wrong.

Believe it or not, just the opposite is true. In economics, there's a fundamental construct called the _Price/Quality Relationship_. The gyst of this relationship is very simple: Consumers equate high prices with high quality. That is, if you charge lots of money for a product, buyers instinctively conclude that your product is good.

Think about it. Take a new dress shirt, fold it up, put a $10 pricetag on it, and put it on display at Walmart, and people think the shirt is cheap. Take the same shirt, stick a $100 pricetag on it, and put it in Neiman Marcus, and people will automatically think it's top of the line and want to buy it.

Don't believe me? Here's proof. In 2008, researchers at Caltech and Stanford University conducted a very telling experiment. They took a $5 dollar bottle of wine and a $90 bottle of wine and gave a glass of each to a group of 20 volunteers. Then the volunteers were asked which one they preferred. Sure enough, the volunteers all consistently reported that they liked the $90 wine better than the $5 wine, just as you'd expect.

But here's the catch: The researchers had switched the pricetags!

The researchers told the volunteers that they were drinking $90 wine when they were actually drinking crappy $5 wine and vice versa. The volunteers ended up saying they liked the crappy $5 wine more than the expensive wine simply because they thought the cheap $5 wine cost $90.

Then the researchers pulled another trick. They poured each volunteer a glass of what they said was a $10 wine and a glass of what they said was $90 wine. _But both glasses had the same friggin' wine!_ And, you guessed it, all the volunteers said they much preferred the $90 wine over the $10 wine even though they were drinking the same exact stuff. 

Don't believe me? Here...read the report yourself: http://media.caltech.edu/press_releases/13091

You see this happen all the time. I'm sure you've seen those expensive Dyson vacuum cleaners on TV. They want over $600 dollars for one of these things. Well guess what? Consumer Reports tested the fancy Dyson vacuum against a cheap $50 Dirt Devil and guess what?

The Dirt Devil won!

Yet people are shelling out their hard-earned money hand-over-fist for the stupid Dyson vacuum!

And why...?

Because of the Dyson's _high price_.

They think with a price that high, it has to be good.

This same very rule applies to pro wrestling shows. I'd say the average admission price for an indie show is somewhere under $10. Well guess what -- if you hand a flyer for your next show to some guy on the street and the admission is $8, guess what he's going to immediately conclude?

You think he's going to say, "Wow, this looks like a first-rate, awesome show! I should go to this!"?

Heck no!

He's going to say to himself, "This show looks like crap. Eight dollars? What is this, amateur hour? No thanks. I have much better things to do with my time."

Now, suppose you hand that guy the same flyer but this time the price is, say, $20. Well now you're showing a little pride in your product. Now you're saying your product is actually worth something. You're saying, loud and clear, "This show is so good, you have to pay $20 bucks to see it."

Bottom line: Want more fans at your show? 










Raise the prices.


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## Mark.

What's your market research? Have you actually spoken to the thousand or so fans you would need to establish 50 solid reasons for not going to indy shows?


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## THECHAMPION

That's dumb. 

I won't go to an indy show where the tickets are more expensive than $30. 

And I can safely say that this is true regardless of your experiment because I live in an area with plenty of opportunities to go any of the major indies really. I choose to go to ROH and Chikara not just because they're better but because the tickets are cheaper than Dragon Gate and Evolve.


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## smokinglizard

THECHAMPION said:


> That's dumb.
> 
> I won't go to an indy show where the tickets are more expensive than $30.


I agree! Charging $30 or more for an indie wrestling show _is_ dumb. That's why in my article I _*never*_ suggested that tickets should be $30 or more!


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## THECHAMPION

No you just said more expensive tickets would sell better.

But I never pay more than like $10-15 for ROH tickets. ROH regularly has extraordinarily cheap tickets and they're the undisputed king of the indies.


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## Neutronic

Can you answer my question from the other thread

Who are you?

Are you just a fan claiming you know how to fix the indies? Have you been in wrestling as a promoter or something?


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## smokinglizard

Neutronic said:


> Have you been in wrestling as a promoter or something?


Yes. Both as a promoter and as a worker.


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## Neutronic

smokinglizard said:


> Yes. Both as a promoter and as a worker.


Can we get some info?

Wrestling Name? How Long you've been a wrestler/promoter.

What your promotion was? How successful was it? 

It'd help people buy your book if we knew you were someone that knew what he was talking about, not random promoter X.


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## Chismo

I don't want to be a dick, but so far - this thread stinks. I don't even like the idea. I'm not a fan of "fixing" things. People like what they like. This shit about fixing sounds like it's written by this woman:


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## smokinglizard

Neutronic said:


> Can we get some info?


Sure! I wrestled under the name Ricky Vaughn back in the late 80s/early 90s.

Promoted and co-promoted two promotions in Colorado during the same timeframe. Unfortunately I don't have as much time to promote shows as I used to, as I have a full-time career as the chief of a software engineering division. That said, though, here's a link to my most recent wrestling project:

http://www.freefighting.tv

We did this as a screener for a major cable network for a proposed TV concept. Former FCW/WWE worker Brian Cage worked with me on this project.

Check it out!



> I don't want to be a dick, but so far - this thread stinks. I don't even like the idea. I'm not a fan of "fixing" things. People like what they like. This shit about fixing sounds like it's written by this woman...


Hey, Joe, I'm sorry you're not enjoying the thread so far. But stick around! There's plenty more to come and you might change your mind.

And now it's time for...

*Part four of a 50 part series discussing the Top 50 Reasons Wrestling Fans Don't Go to Indie Wrestling Shows.*

Reason #47: Awful Venues.

A few years ago, a worker asked me if I'd come to a show he was scheduled to be in and critique his match. Not having anything else going on that Saturday, I agreed. The show was in a community center in a tiny backwoods town in Georgia that I had never been to before.

So I arrive at the town but I'm at a complete loss as to where the show is. There's nothing at all in this town that I can see other than a convenience store. So I pull in to the convenience store and ask the guy there where the community center is.

"Community center?" he says, kind of glaring at me in disbelief. "Well heck it's right across the street there _where all them lights are._"

He points out the window to some dark clump of trees across the street. Notice that I emphasized the words _where all them lights are_, because we'll be coming back to that in just a moment.

"You mean right across the street?" I ask.

"Yep," he said. "You can't miss it."

False.

Anyone could miss it. I did.

Regardless, I hopped back in the car and drove in the general direction of the dark clump of trees, hoping that somehow a building would emerge from the darkness.

Sure enough, one did. It looked like an old, condemned warehouse. It was behind the dark clump of trees. And that thing about "All them lights"?

"All them lights" were -- and I am _not_ making this up -- _one_ of those outdoor building lanterns. You know, one of these:










Again, I am not making this up. One lantern. For the entire building.

So naturally I'm beginning to doubt that I'm in the right place, but soon enough I notice about four "workers" standing outside in the "parking lot" (i.e., sand lot) in their wrestling "gear," smoking cigarettes.

So I park, get out of the car, and stumble in the pitch darkness toward the feeble light being given off by that lone lantern. On the way I pass the four workers, so I say, "What's up, guys?" and one guy wearing one of those awful lucha libre masks -- one with fins hanging off the sides of it, like the one below -- nods his head at me and says, "Whaddup?"










He then continues to take drags off his cigarette...through the mouth hole on his lucha libre mask.

So I approach the entrance to this place, and I notice that they've taken a set of wooden steps from a mobile home and placed them up against the building so you can get to the doorway.

Notice I said door_way_, as there was no door.

And no air conditioning.

And to add final insult to injury, the kid who asked me to come this mess sucked.

Bad.

I mean, like, turning-the-wrong-direction-to-feed bad.

Here's the bottom line. If you want people to come to your wrestling show, you have to schedule it in a decent building.

One with a full parking lot, good lighting, clean restrooms, and a ceiling high enough that allows the workers to do their moves. Like standing suplexes.

If you're running a show in some crappy building, your show looks crappy. I don't care who's on the card. Sure, good buildings cost more money, but running a proper business costs money.

What's that? You don't have money to rent a proper building?

Then you shouldn't be in the business of pro wrestling, because people aren't going to come.

It's location, folks. If you put a BBQ restaurant in some rundown, dilapidated building, no one's going to come...it doesn't matter how good the food is. People will be afraid you have rats. You won't sell any food and you'll go out of business. It's basic common sense.

The same thing holds true for indie pro wrestling.


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## MOX

This is an interesting thread for me as I am not well versed in indie shows. I've enjoyed your posts so far.

But I was wondering, is there much point buying your book if you're posting most of it here anyway, or are these 50 reasons still only a small part of the whole thing?


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## ROH AmericanDragon

Hey love the thread as someone who was involved in indy wrestling I've noticed a lot of the same problems that you have. However I do have a few critiques on my perspective of what you said.

As far as the duct tape thing, well there are many uses for duct tape when I work at promotions, every ring I have ever worked on needed duct tape to hold the padding together underneath the canvis. That includes anything from my local indy to ROH, they use Duct tape but it needs to be used properly. And I have put up a company banner using some nails that were in the wall and also used some duct tape on the back (making double sided) to take out any wrinkles or swaying to make it look right. So to conclude there are great uses of duct tape but I agree as far as using it to cover up stuff in the ring etc. However if you encounter a rip or whatever that night, sometimes duct tape is the only solution, but it should not be used as a permanent fix like many promoters use it.

I do completely agree on your point you made about companies being too cheap and just looking like absolute shit. That is part of the duct tape notion where they want the quick fix and don't think it matters.

The ticket price mentality makes sense to me, however if you make it too high people are going to be like 'I have to pay how much to see a bunch of people I've never even heard of?' I think if you are a low end indy you should never charge less that $10, if you have big stars being brought in or something that makes your product stand out you can charge $20, and maybe maybe $30 for front row seats but that's only after the fact you're able to sell out the building with a $20 GA... but then again having different price ranges on seats does have it's benefits. If I remember correctly ROH had $20 GA, $30 assigned seats and then $50 for front row seats as their base prices (would change based on venue a bit) and yes you could get discounted tickets.

As far as Venues I've been pretty lucky as far as doing shows in pretty good venues. I never had an experience like the one you said, but I have no doubt that it happened. I've done shows at the hammerstein/grand ballroom, The ECW Arena(after it was all fixed up) The Deer Park Community Center, and many many many others too many to name. But Luckily none of them were dodgy or shitty like you described. I'm from new york so when I goto shows anywhere from boston to virginia it's usually in a pretty populated area. I agree the venue is very important for people to goto and you want it to look presentable.

Anyways keep up the good work, I really would like to read your book but just waiting on the kindle version


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## Last Chancery

Not going to comment about how the topic creator is just promoting his book, but I will say I agree with this general notion. I went to a DGUSA show last year and instead of a bell they had aluminum pipes which the timekeeper clanked together before and after every match. It came off really cheap and tacky, and even inspired a chant which was repeated for the entire night. "BANG THOSE PIPES! BANG THOSE PIPES!" Something like that. I would expect as much from an indy with literally zero budget, but from Dragon Gate? The show was an iPPV in a massive concert hall. It charged $75 for front row tickets and sold those out. Couldn't Gabe, I don't know, use the earnings from one of those tickets and ponied up for a legitimate ring bell? Looking credible is about half the work right there.

Good ideas in this thread. Nice post.


----------



## USAUSA1

Wrestling was built off bad buildings, that's how you appreciate the good ones. 

However, wrestling should never be in a nightclub. Even WWF barely pull it off.


----------



## CB Wanalaya

I can agree with the notion of the duct tape. I was watching a AAW show and in between matches they kepy duct taping the ring because the tape kept coming off. I know "what else are they supposed to do?" But in the end it just gave the event a cheap feel to it. They were duct taping the ring during the entrances also.


----------



## smokinglizard

Anark said:


> This is an interesting thread for me as I am not well versed in indie shows. I've enjoyed your posts so far.
> 
> But I was wondering, is there much point buying your book if you're posting most of it here anyway, or are these 50 reasons still only a small part of the whole thing?


I'm so glad you're enjoying the thread so far. Thanks for reading along.

To answer your question, very little -- if any -- of what I'm posting here is in my book. Here I'm taking a humorous approach at what's wrong with indie wrestling. In my book I do talk a lot about what's wrong, but I spend more time offering practical _solutions_. Things like how to develop good characters, how to book exciting matches, how to pace matches properly and logically, how to market your promotion so people know about you, how to run a successful concession stand, etc.

Trust me, there's much, much more in the book than what I'm posting here. You should read a sample on Amazon, if you haven't already: FIXING THE INDIES on Amazon



ROH AmericanDragon said:


> Hey love the thread as someone who was involved in indy wrestling I've noticed a lot of the same problems that you have. However I do have a few critiques on my perspective of what you said.
> 
> As far as the duct tape thing, well there are many uses for duct tape when I work at promotions, every ring I have ever worked on needed duct tape to hold the padding together underneath the canvis. That includes anything from my local indy to ROH, they use Duct tape but it needs to be used properly. And I have put up a company banner using some nails that were in the wall and also used some duct tape on the back (making double sided) to take out any wrinkles or swaying to make it look right. So to conclude there are great uses of duct tape but I agree as far as using it to cover up stuff in the ring etc. However if you encounter a rip or whatever that night, sometimes duct tape is the only solution, but it should not be used as a permanent fix like many promoters use it.
> 
> I do completely agree on your point you made about companies being too cheap and just looking like absolute shit.


You make a very good point. Duct tape certainly has its place. The examples you give are good ones. I can see fixing certain things with duct tape -- like a tear in one of the pads _under_ the canvas that no one sees. That makes sense. The problem is, too many promoters don't understand that there's a line that you can't cross. If fans can see it, it's bad.



Last Chancery said:


> Not going to comment about how the topic creator is just promoting his book, but I will say I agree with this general notion. I went to a DGUSA show last year and instead of a bell they had aluminum pipes which the timekeeper clanked together before and after every match. It came off really cheap and tacky, and even inspired a chant which was repeated for the entire night. "BANG THOSE PIPES! BANG THOSE PIPES!" Something like that. I would expect as much from an indy with literally zero budget, but from Dragon Gate? The show was an iPPV in a massive concert hall. It charged $75 for front row tickets and sold those out. Couldn't Gabe, I don't know, use the earnings from one of those tickets and ponied up for a legitimate ring bell? Looking credible is about half the work right there.
> 
> Good ideas in this thread. Nice post.


Thanks for the kind words! This forum is awesome.

Dragon Gate did that?! Dragon Gate?!

If you think about it, you can so easily work a much better solution than banging pipes together: Just download a ring bell sound from the Internet to your iPod and then connect your iPod to your PA system. Ding! Ding! Sounds just like the real thing, an no one would know the difference.



Maurice Ouellet said:


> I can agree with the notion of the duct tape. I was watching a AAW show and in between matches they kepy duct taping the ring because the tape kept coming off. I know "what else are they supposed to do?" But in the end it just gave the event a cheap feel to it. They were duct taping the ring during the entrances also.


AAW?! I'm so disappointed in both those promotions. I thought they both had much higher production standards.

Thanks again, everyone, for reading along and posting! Now let's move on to part 5:

*This is part five of a 50 part series discussing the Top 50 Reasons Wrestling Fans Don't Go to Indie Wrestling Shows.*

In this installment we discuss Reason #46: Unattractive valets.

Pro wrestlers and promoters of the world, listen up: Unless your girlfriend or wife looks like this...










or this...










or this...










...keep her _*out*_ of the wrestling ring!

Please!

She may be the hottest thing since Heidi Klum to _you_, but to us, she's not so nice.

I remember a show I went to a few years back where the top heel's girlfriend decided she wanted to be in the spotlight, too. Only problem was, she was no Torrie Wilson. Far from it. _Light years_ from it. She was short, chubby, and had what I call squatty-body. And just as so many of these girls are wont to do, she was wearing a tight black lycra dress with an obscenely short skirt to show off her...well...whatever.

Anyway, this girl not only was a valet, but she fancied herself a wrestler, too. So she decided it would be cool for her to mix it up with the guys during the beatdown after the match. This didn't go well. At one point, she bizarrely decided to do a victory roll on one of the babies. She didn't execute the move correctly and wound up landing on her head, her chubby body flopping hard on the mat.

But that wasn't the worst of it.

As she flipped over, her skirt flipped up, exposing everything she had.

Since she landed on her head, she was knocked silly. So there she was, unwittingly sitting flat on her cellulite covered butt in her thong underwear. It was a horrible site. I was so embarrassed for her, I wanted to jump in the ring and cover the girl up myself.

The heel ran over in horror and frantically tried to pull her skirt down, but the girl finally came to and looked up at him quizzically with a look on her face that said, "What? What are you doing?"

Finally she realized she was sitting there in her underwear before the entire crowd, so she jumped up, yanked her skirt down, and blushed redder than a beefsteak tomato.

And no, none of this was a work. You can tell the difference between a work and the real thing. When it's a work, there's lots of comical theatrics and silly mock shock involved. There was none of that here. It was all real. The girl had completely fallen out of character and just wanted to get out of there.

So bottom line: Wrestlers' girlfriends should stay in the audience.

How are you enjoying this series so far? If you like stories like these, there's plenty more in my new book, _*Fixing the Indies*_


----------



## jaw2929

Smokinglizard, I'm loving your posts here bro. The fugly valet thing is spot-fucking-ON! You've gotta love the skanks who've got no pride and think they're "hot shit" when they're anything but! Wearing skimpy clothes that don't quite cover their rolls and rolls of fucking fat, and it makes you nauseous just looking at 'em? I would've been embarrassed for the bitch just showing up in such an outfit, nevermind the ridiculously nonsensical actions she tried to do in the ring! 

As soon as I get paid next week, you've got a buyer of your book (I'm not even waiting for the fucking Kindle version) right here! This is the most entertaining thread on these forums, IMO. Keep it up boss!


----------



## seabs

*That one is spot on indeed. ROH were guilty of that with the ANX skanks they used. Loads of Indies are actually. It's no an issue when they're the heels and they can get heat but when they come in with some skanky looking valet that's supposed to be attractive it's laughable. 

If I read books then I'd probably give your book a buy (Y)

Edit: This is an unrelated note but the last point reminded me of it. I was watching DGUSA's mania shows where Moxley brought in Trina Michaels and she was awesome on the last show in the short Tozawa match. Like she just got the whole wrestling thing better than the majority of Indy workers these days which is so sad.*


----------



## Neutronic

Wouldn't you say attractivity is relative though?


And one of the ANX girls was Kenny King's gf


----------



## seabs

*The type of girls in question are obviously not what they are meant to be presented as though. Overweight women with messy hair and too much make up being presented as beautiful valets is the problem.*


----------



## nevereveragainu

One reason is needed

BECAUSE IF TNA ARENT GOING TO COMPETE WITH WWE WHAT CHANCE DO ANY OF THE OTHERS HAVE?!?!?!?


----------



## ROH AmericanDragon

Neutronic said:


> Wouldn't you say attractivity is relative though?
> 
> 
> And one of the ANX girls was Kenny King's gf


I know that when ROH had shows at the ecw arena for their hd net shows, they would get strippers to be valets for the ANX. They would come there with cards for free admission to their strip club which wasn't far from the building. Sometimes they'd send hot girls sometimes they were nothing special. And I think one time it was actually kenny king's girlfriend but she was attractive so wasn't a problem that time.


----------



## WutChagoNAdoBrothA

lol the ugly valet thing is a good one


----------



## ROH AmericanDragon

back to the Duct tape notion I thought of a fairly recent example of a poor use of duct tape. In New York we have an athletic commission and one time they showed up and the guy had the craziest notion of putting duct tape over anything that could be perceived as 'dangerous' he came in and put grey duct tape over the hooks on the turnbuckles. On the ropes, pretty much anywhere, and it pissed me off so much, it was like "REALLY?" he was putting duct tape over stuff that did not need to be taped, what a fucking moron.


----------



## smokinglizard

jaw2929 said:


> Smokinglizard, I'm loving your posts here bro. The fugly valet thing is spot-fucking-ON! You've gotta love the skanks who've got no pride and think they're "hot shit" when they're anything but! Wearing skimpy clothes that don't quite cover their rolls and rolls of fucking fat, and it makes you nauseous just looking at 'em? I would've been embarrassed for the bitch just showing up in such an outfit, nevermind the ridiculously nonsensical actions she tried to do in the ring!
> 
> As soon as I get paid next week, you've got a buyer of your book (I'm not even waiting for the fucking Kindle version) right here! This is the most entertaining thread on these forums, IMO. Keep it up boss!


Glad you're enjoying the thread! And I'm confident you'll _really_ enjoy the book!




ROH AmericanDragon said:


> back to the Duct tape notion I thought of a fairly recent example of a poor use of duct tape. In New York we have an athletic commission and one time they showed up and the guy had the craziest notion of putting duct tape over anything that could be perceived as 'dangerous' he came in and put grey duct tape over the hooks on the turnbuckles. On the ropes, pretty much anywhere, and it pissed me off so much, it was like "REALLY?" he was putting duct tape over stuff that did not need to be taped, what a fucking moron.


Wow. Just wow. That means you had to peel off all that duct tape to break the ring down at the end of the night! Wow.

You know what time it is now?

It's time for part 6!

*This is part six of a 50 part series discussing the Top 50 Reasons Wrestling Fans Don't Go to Indie Wrestling Shows.*

In this installment we discuss Reason #45: Fat guys.

Before I even begin to write this installment, look at this:










Wow.

Just wow.

Where do I begin?

I guess it's most appropriate to start with what _should_ be plainly obvious: Pro wrestling is supposed to be portrayed as a legitimate combat sport. That's the illusion we're all trying to create. Combat _sport_.

With that said, why in blazes do so many promoters and bookers put chubby kids in their rings? Don't answer that question, as it's rhetorical. Chubby kids keep cropping up in the indies because indie promotions run their own "schools," and chubby kids buy their way onto cards by paying tuition.

That's bad enough. In fact, that's epic fail. But the promotion photographed above actually put a belt on a chubby kid!

A flippin' belt!

By putting a belt on a worker you're saying, "This guy is one of our finest." Well if this kid was one of their finest, I'd hate to see the midcard. Again, quality is the guiding light to success in the indies. Having unathletic, chubby kids whose only experience in fighting is playing WWE video games is just saying, "We don't care."

In order to create the illusion of sport, the participants have to look like athletes. Period. End of story. They have to look like they are conditioned to compete in a sport where the players try to smash each other's face in. Now don't get me wrong -- not every guy on the card has to look like this guy, the incomparable Brian Cage:










But what I _am_ saying is, in order to get indie pro wrestling over, the guys in the ring need to look like they belong there, not like they belong in the audience instead.


----------



## Neutronic

I always have a problem when someone says someone is too small, too fat, or too skinny especially if they're a good worker

I agree looking like an athlete is important but then again


----------



## JoseDRiveraTCR7

Don't forget Foley or guys like Sandman and Jake the Snake Roberts that had beer guts.


----------



## seabs

*All 3 of them played to their size though and it was part of their gimmick. Misawa is a poor example because it's a pic of him when he was old. He wasn't normally that chubby in his best days.

Chubby kids who just aren't in shape is a good shout unless they're supposed to be big men power workers like a Vader for example. *


----------



## Neutronic

I kinda like how out of shape Willie Mack is, especially for how agile he is, really plays to his character


----------



## WutChagoNAdoBrothA

hes fat but lol those pants


----------



## USAUSA1

I don't have a problem with fat guys, I have a problem with fat guys that dress like that guy in the photo. If he had a different look clothing wise or a gimmick to compliment his weight, it would be perfectly fine. 

If the guy in the picture had a mask with TIGHTS, he won't look so bad.


----------



## FITZ

Yeah I think the problem is the pants for sure. 

I totally understand what the OP is saying with all of this but I also think that there are a lot of people that know the indy show they're going to is super low rate. My local company is guilty of just about everything that you've mentioned so far (I think they have a real bell though) but they have a strong core fan base that goes to all the shows and the people don't care how bad the product looks. I see the same people every time (we don't make up the whole crowd but a pretty good portion because the fans generally know who all the wrestlers are) and it's just about having fun. 

Granted it's a really smarky for what they do but everyone there has fun and we don't care that the wrestlers are out of shape, or that Vigo's wife (the current champion) has a terrible looking wife. We insult the guys that we don't like regardless of if they're face or heel and cheer whoever we want. You always boo the ref. And anything else that amuses people is fine.


----------



## USAUSA1

I think at the end of the list, the OP is going to say "this is the true essence of indy wrestling and I love it" but for right now he can't say that am assuming...........

Fat guys vs. Skinny/little boys looking wrestlers, which is worse? Fat guys is more believable and you can at least make them look somewhat good. Little boys looking wrestlers have a harder time convincing people.


----------



## Neutronic

The guy in the Photo would be fine in a singlet


----------



## seabs

USAUSA1 said:


> I think at the end of the list, the OP is going to say "this is the true essence of indy wrestling and I love it" but for right now he can't say that am assuming...........
> 
> Fat guys vs. Skinny/little boys looking wrestlers, which is worse? Fat guys is more believable and you can at least make them look somewhat good. Little boys looking wrestlers have a harder time convincing people.


*Skinny kids are worse. Any look or size can work as long as you can make a character out of it and play to it in your matches. Skinny guys who don't take ass whoopings all match and do more than a few flashy high spots are the worst though.*


----------



## Quasi Juice

Neutronic said:


> I always have a problem when someone says someone is too small, too fat, or too skinny especially if they're a good worker
> 
> I agree looking like an athlete is important but then again


Most of those examples are from a different time, when fans accepted or even preferred "real" rough men in pro wrestling. We're now more used to guys who are really well in shape. Now of course Rhodes had tremendous charisma and thus appealed to the common people, and Vader was just a beast and great in the ring. This indy guy, is just really fat and has no unique look.


----------



## Kotre

Huh Brian Cage/Kris Logan. Did he ever tell you why he was released from WWE?

Also, the fact that you're writing a book, a large amount of it being given away for free does not inspire confidence from me. Especially given the fact that you are not actively following the advise and your most recent, non book related endevour hasn't gotten off the ground doesn't either.


----------



## jaw2929

Kotre said:


> Also, the fact that you're writing a book, a large amount of it being given away for free does not inspire confidence from me. Especially given the fact that you are not actively following the advise and your most recent, non book related endevour hasn't gotten off the ground doesn't either.



If you bothered reading what the OP said earlier in this thread, very little if any of what he's posting in here is actually IN his book, ya ignorant twat.


----------



## smokinglizard

Neutronic said:


> I always have a problem when someone says someone is too small, too fat, or too skinny especially if they're a good worker
> 
> I agree looking like an athlete is important but then again...


Ah ha! I knew it was coming! You've heard of the Dusty Finish? Well there's also the Dusty Copout. If I had a dollar for every time a worker used the Dusty Copout on me, I'd have lots of ones stuffed in my wallet.

What's the Dusty Copout, you ask? It goes like this. Norm says to chubby wrestler, "You really should get in the gym and get in better shape," and said wrestler says back to Norm, "But, Norm, being fat is my gimmick! I'm like Dusty Rhodes! Dusty was fat, and he got over! So why can't I?"

That's the Dusty Copout.

Don't get me wrong. I do agree with you that there is space on a roster for two or three fat or skinny guys. It's OK if you have a roster of, say, 20 guys and three or four of them are fat and the rest look like athletes. That's fine. But when you have a roster of 20 guys and 15 of them are fat or skinny, that's not going to get over. That projects the completely wrong image. Fat/skinny guys should be the exception, not the norm.

Again, don't get me wrong. Just because I say the majority of guys should be in shape, that doesn't mean I think they should all be steroid juice heads. Instead, think UFC, like this guy:










This is UFC fighter Phil Baroni. You can tell he's very athletic and in excellent shape. But he's 5' 10" and weighs only 175lbs. He's not huge -- heck, he's not even a heavyweight -- but he's a legit athlete. The majority of guys in wrestling should look like this. Yes, you can have a few fat guys, but most of the guys should look like this.

_If_ you want people to buy tickets, that is.



TaylorFitz said:


> Yeah I think the problem is the pants for sure.
> 
> I totally understand what the OP is saying with all of this but I also think that there are a lot of people that know the indy show they're going to is super low rate. My local company is guilty of just about everything that you've mentioned so far (I think they have a real bell though) but they have a strong core fan base that goes to all the shows and the people don't care how bad the product looks.


See, this is the paradigm that indie pro wrestling is stuck in. It's this paradigm of "it's supposed to be cheap" that keeps more fans from coming to shows. Sure, you might run cheap-looking shows and have 50 or even 100 diehard, extremely passionate fans who come to every one of your shows.

But guess what? If that's all you've got, you're not going to make any money.



Kotre said:


> Huh Brian Cage/Kris Logan. Did he ever tell you why he was released from WWE?


Doesn't matter to me. Brian is a great worker, very dedicated, very easy to work with, very enthusiastic, and a great guy. That's all that matters to me. I look forward to working with him on other projects in the future.



> Also, the fact that you're writing a book, a large amount of it being given away for free does not inspire confidence from me.


Ah! You must be joining this party late! But, seriously, thanks for reading along. As I posted earlier in this thread, very little of what I'm posting here is in the book. So I'm not giving away the book for free. You should pick up a copy!



> Especially given the fact that you are not actively following the advise and your most recent, non book related endevour hasn't gotten off the ground doesn't either.


Thanks for checking out www.freefighting.tv! There's still some life in that project. It's not totally dead yet. Stay tuned.

All right...it's now time for part seven of the series...

*This is part seven of a 50 part series discussing the Top 50 Reasons Wrestling Fans Don't Go to Indie Wrestling Shows.*

In this installment we discuss Reason #44: Surly ticket takers.










A few years back I decided to take my wife and my nephew to an indie pro wrestling show. My wife says she does not like wrestling, but she agreed to come along because she thought our nephew -- who was 9 at the time -- would have fun. So we piled into the car and made our way to the Boys & Girls Club, where the show was being held.

On the way I decided to stop at an ATM to grab some cash. I pulled out $200. The ATM gave me ten $20 bills, as ATMs typically do. Remember that, because it's going to be relevant in just a moment.

Now before I go on with the story, I want to make something clear -- despite the fact that I know many indie wrestling promoters, I have _never_ accepted an invitation to enter a show for free. Never. Why? Because from my own experience as a promoter, I know that too many people expect freebies. Some guy will be at the ticket table saying, "But I'm so-and-so." Or there's some chick saying, "But I'm so-and-so's wife..." If you let people like this in for free, soon you'll have more non-paying customers than real ones.

So I always pay my way in, no matter the offer. It's just a matter of principle.

Anyway, so wife, nephew, and I pull up to the Boys and Girls Club and we make our way to the ticket table. And seated squarely in the middle of it is the hardest, meanest looking woman I'd ever set eyes on. This woman made biker chicks look like Victoria's Secret models. She was scary. Just plain scary. As we approached, she stared us down with a completely dispassionate look on her face. When we finally got to the table, she said nothing. No greeting, no "How many?", nothing.

So I just said, "Three, please."

"Twenty-four," she muttered.

Fortunately I knew she meant dollars, as I knew the advertised price was $8, and there were three of us. So I opened up my wallet, peeled off two of those ten $20 bills the ATM had given me earlier, and went to hand them to her. But she wouldn't take them. Confused, I prompted her by saying, "Here."

Finally, she said, and I'm not making this up, "I can't make change."

Whuuuut? How can you charge $8 for a ticket and not be able to break tens and twenties? Don't you have a bunch of fives and ones from all the other people who've paid for their tickets? I don't know...maybe they already had to make change for a bunch of other guys paying with tens and twenties. Who knows? But still, how can you not make change?!

Confused, I looked at her for a long moment, trying to process what she said. "You can't make change?" I asked, dumbfounded. "You're not serious, are you?"

"I don't have it," she insisted. "Exact change only."

"Well, I don't have exact change," I said. "So what? What do you want me to do?"

"There's a convenience store across the street," she said. "They'll make change for you. Sorry."

Are you following the implications of this? Here are three willing paying customers with cash money in hand, and this woman is turning us away because we don't have exact change. How dumb is this? Ordinarily indie promotions _beg_ people to come, but here's this lady putting the burden squarely on the customers' shoulders.

I knew the promoter of this show. His name was Ron. So, fed up, I said, "Look, is Ron here? Let me talk to him."

So she half turned and yelled to one of the setup crew, "Hey! Get Ron!"

Eventually Ron emmerged from behind the curtain. He smiled when he saw me and thanked me for coming. I explained to him my predicament of not having exact change. Ron said to the Jabba the Hutt lady at the ticket table, "It's OK. He gets in free."

Well now I'm in a quandary! I want to pay my admission, but I can't! They can't make change!

So I said to Ron, "Well, no, Ron, I want to pay for my tickets."

To that he said, "Oh..."

Bottom line: The people working for your promotion -- even if they're volunteers -- represent your business. If you want to project a professional image, make sure you hire professionals.

And make sure you have plenty of fives and ones in the till.


----------



## SHIRLEY

smokinglizard said:


> Fat/skinny guys should be the exception, not the norm.
> 
> Again, don't get me wrong. Just because I say the majority of guys should be in shape, that doesn't mean I think they should all be steroid juice heads. Instead, think UFC, like this guy:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is UFC fighter Phil Baroni. You can tell he's very athletic and in excellent shape. But he's 5' 10" and weighs only 175lbs. He's not huge -- heck, he's not even a heavyweight -- but he's a legit athlete. The majority of guys in wrestling should look like this. Yes, you can have a few fat guys, but most of the guys should look like this.


That guy doesn't look like a legit athlete. He looks like someone with unnecessary beach muscles. Dusty probably had better cardiovascular conditioning than any wrestler that's ever had that build. No intelligent person would ever call someone with the gassed-up look "a legit athlete". 

_Exhibit A: Baroni has lost as many fights as he has ever won._

The idea that all wrestlers should have beach muscles was created and popularised by multi-millionaire bodybuilding fanatic and unashamed non-fan of wrestling Vince McMahon Jr. 

_Exhibit B: The majority of the greatest wrestlers of all time - Flair, Sammartino, Thesz, Austin, Andre, Misawa...didn't have the Cena, Warrior, Luger physique that Vince loves._


----------



## reDREDD

Neutronic said:


> I always have a problem when someone says someone is too small, too fat, or too skinny especially if they're a good worker
> 
> I agree looking like an athlete is important but then again


Ok, either WF's rules have changed or I have some deeply repressed freudian issues, but am I the only guy who sees the penis?


----------



## Neutronic

smokinglizard said:


> Ah ha! I knew it was coming! You've heard of the Dusty Finish? Well there's also the Dusty Copout. If I had a dollar for every time a worker used the Dusty Copout on me, I'd have lots of ones stuffed in my wallet.
> 
> What's the Dusty Copout, you ask? It goes like this. Norm says to chubby wrestler, "You really should get in the gym and get in better shape," and said wrestler says back to Norm, "But, Norm, being fat is my gimmick! I'm like Dusty Rhodes! Dusty was fat, and he got over! So why can't I?"
> 
> That's the Dusty Copout.
> 
> Don't get me wrong. I do agree with you that there is space on a roster for two or three fat or skinny guys. It's OK if you have a roster of, say, 20 guys and three or four of them are fat and the rest look like athletes. That's fine. But when you have a roster of 20 guys and 15 of them are fat or skinny, that's not going to get over. That projects the completely wrong image. Fat/skinny guys should be the exception, not the norm.
> 
> *Again, don't get me wrong. Just because I say the majority of guys should be in shape, that doesn't mean I think they should all be steroid juice heads. Instead, think UFC, like this guy:*.


That is exactly what you're saying

You're part of the reason wrestlers succumb to pressure and use steroids


----------



## Cactus

redeadening said:


> Ok, either WF's rules have changed or I have some deeply repressed freudian issues, but am I the only guy who sees the penis?


I don't see a penis, but I do see a dick.






:casey


----------



## USAUSA1

Shirley Crabtree III said:


> That guy doesn't look like a legit athlete. He looks like someone with unnecessary beach muscles. Dusty probably had better cardiovascular conditioning than any wrestler that's ever had that build. No intelligent person would ever call someone with the gassed-up look "a legit athlete".
> 
> _Exhibit A: Baroni has lost as many fights as he has ever won._
> 
> The idea that all wrestlers should have beach muscles was created and popularised by multi-millionaire bodybuilding fanatic and unashamed non-fan of wrestling Vince McMahon Jr.
> 
> _Exhibit B: The majority of the greatest wrestlers of all time - Flair, Sammartino, Thesz, Austin, Andre, Misawa...didn't have the Cena, Warrior, Luger physique that Vince loves._


Austin always been ripped, at least in person. He got even bigger when he went to the WWF(steroids of course). Bruno had an amazing built body in his prime. Andre is the exception to the rule. But I agree with you in general that you don't have to be like Ultimate Warrior.


----------



## smokinglizard

Shirley Crabtree III said:


> That guy doesn't look like a legit athlete. He looks like someone with unnecessary beach muscles. Dusty probably had better cardiovascular conditioning than any wrestler that's ever had that build. No intelligent person would ever call someone with the gassed-up look "a legit athlete".


Thank you for this! This was so funny, when I read it, I sprayed coffee out of my nose. It's always good to start the day with a genuine laugh.

If what you're saying is true, you might want to tell these guys, as I don't think they got the memo:










Adrian Peterson, 4x NFL Pro Bowler.










British sprinter Harry Aikines-Aryeetey.










Terrell Owens, 6x NFL Pro Bowler.










Mike Modano, retired NHL hockey player who currently holds the all-time scoring record for a US born player.










Gabe Kapler, 13 year MLB veteran.










Raj Bhavsar, Olympic medal winning gymnast










Luke O'Donnell, NRL rugby player.



> _Exhibit A: Baroni has lost as many fights as he has ever won._
> 
> The idea that all wrestlers should have beach muscles was created and popularised by multi-millionaire bodybuilding fanatic and unashamed non-fan of wrestling Vince McMahon Jr.
> 
> _Exhibit B: The majority of the greatest wrestlers of all time - Flair, Sammartino, Thesz, Austin, Andre, Misawa...didn't have the Cena, Warrior, Luger physique that Vince loves._


Now let's be fair and stay on point -- we're not talking about Vince here; we're talking about the indies. Please re-read my post. Never did I say guys have to look like Cena, Warrior, or Luger. I said they should look like UFC fighters.

Which is just common sense. I'm not sure why anyone would argue with that.



> No _*intelligent*_ person would ever call someone with the gassed-up look "a legit athlete."


Oh, the irony! The irony!



Neutronic said:


> That is exactly what you're saying
> 
> You're part of the reason wrestlers succumb to pressure and use steroids


Again, come on, now -- let's be fair. It's generally not a good idea to quote someone out of context and put words in their mouth. Makes you look presumptuous and it discredits your own argument.

What I said was specifically this:



> Again, don't get me wrong. Just because I say the majority of guys should be in shape, that doesn't mean I think they should all be steroid juice heads. Instead, think UFC...


You say this:



> You're part of the reason wrestlers succumb to pressure and use steroids


So let's sum up. I say indie pro wrestlers should be in shape like UFC fighters. As a consequence, you conclude I'm part of the reasons why wrestlers use steroids...

...so you're suggesting _*most*_ UFC fighters use steroids? Is that what you're saying?


----------



## USAUSA1

Let's agree, if you entertaining you can overcome your looks. Look at Newt Gingrich for example LOL.

As for the tickets, they should be able to make change. No excuse for that. Even kids lemonade stands can give back change. Especially, right now in this economy people want all the money they can get.


----------



## smokinglizard

USAUSA1 said:


> Let's agree, if you entertaining you can overcome your looks. Look at Newt Gingrich for example LOL.


I understand what you're saying, but this _*still*_ misses my essential point. Yes, _some_ guys can overcome their looks, but when the _majority_ of your guys on your roster need excuses -- or gimmicks -- to overcome their looks, your show looks like crap. It looks like amateur hour, something run by bored high school kids.

Let's agree -- the _majority_ of guys on a pro wrestling roster need to look like UFC fighters.


----------



## Genking48

So they all need to look like buffed up guys with short hair and stuff, like have 50 guys who all look alike? sounds like a bland and boring lineup of guys to me.

They don't need to look like UFC fighters, they just need to be fit, you don't need muscles or look like a professionalism athlete to be fit.


----------



## USAUSA1

Well everyone needs to look and BE in shape. So I do agree in general. And I understand from a marketing standpoint, it better to have guys who look in shape.


----------



## Tony Tornado

LKN said:


> So they all need to look like buffed up guys with short hair and stuff, like have 50 guys who all look alike? sounds like a bland and boring lineup of guys to me.
> 
> They don't need to look like UFC fighters, they just need to be fit, you don't need muscles or look like a professionalism athlete to be fit.


Is this even a discussion? Of course you need guys who look big and muscular because that's what real fighters look like. You don't need to have super chiseled muscles but it's very important to be big. Let's not forget that wrestling is supposed to be about guys fighting each other for the world title, just like boxing or any other combat sport.










Look at this guy. He's a former marathon olympic champion. He's fit as they come. Do you think he has the appropriate look for a wrestler/fighter? Of course you need diversity. From a business perspective it would make no sense if everybody looked like Mason Ryan but you must have a majority of muscular guys on your roster, no doubt about it. Just look at the old days, Bruno Sammartino in his prime for example.


----------



## Neutronic

Tony Tornado said:


> Is this even a discussion? Of course you need guys who look big and muscular because that's what real fighters look like. You don't need to have super chiseled muscles* but it's very important to be big*. Let's not forget that wrestling is supposed to be about guys fighting each other for the world title, just like boxing or any other combat sport.


Except it's not, maybe in WWE but this is not WWE.


----------



## Thomazbr

It's not like MMA Fighters are jacked up, like some of the guys from the picture, as you can see obviously from guys like Fedor, Anderson Silva, Minotauro or Lyoto Machida.
Muscles doesn't always means=good athlete and most of the guys who have muscles like that are most of the times for show.
i mean, just look at Fedor








He isn't jacked up. In fact his build is pretty normal. But he is considered by many one of the best MMA Fighters in History


----------



## smokinglizard

*The wait is over! I proudly bring you part eight of this 50 part series discussing the Top 50 Reasons Wrestling Fans Don't Go to Indie Wrestling Shows.*

Reason #43: Poorly trained wrestlers.

For this installment I'm going to ask you to _really_ use your imagination so you can picture what I'm describing. This isn't going to be easy, so bear with me.

I was at an indie show when the ring announcer stepped through the ropes and announced the next match. One of the guys in this match was a decent veteran with almost ten years of experience. The other guy, well, I had never heard of him before. No problem, I thought. He's probably a rookie. Rookie's need to start somewhere, and a match against an experienced veteran is a pretty good way to make that start.

So out comes this chubby, pasty, baby-faced kid who's wearing bicycle shorts instead of trunks and dirty Chuck Taylor sneakers instead of boots. You know, like these:










Right away I know this isn't going to go well.

For simplicity's sake, let's call this tubby greenhorn Vern -- like the fat kid from the movie "Stand By Me." 










This kid reminded me of that kid. He was short, soft, pale, and his gut hung well over the elastic band of his biker shorts.

So even though I know this isn't going to go well, I shrug my shoulders and decide to give the kid the benefit of the doubt. He'll do fine, I think. He's got a veteran in the ring with him to carry him. He'll do fine.

Wrong.

Wrong, wrong, wrong.

The bell rings, and I can tell Vern is terrified. He stares at the vet like a kid being sent off to kindergarten for the first time. So the vet starts bouncing on his toes and starts to do the feel-out circling before a tieup. Right away I can tell Vern was never told how this is supposed to be done, as he just kind of stands there, until the veteran is right on top of him. In a terrible moment of awkwardness, the heel gives him a shove and loudly whispers to him, "Move around the ring some!"

So Vern starts bumbling around the ring flat-footed, not really knowing why the vet told him to move around.

So now it's time for a tieup. If you've never worked as a wrestler, let me briefly explain this concept. The collar and elbow tieup is a great way to start a match because you can use it to transition into dozens of fundamental mat moves. When it's time to tieup, both wrestlers use nonverbal cues to say to each other, "OK, let's tie up." Typically this involves expanding and sticking out your chest by drawing your shoulder blades back and together.

When you get good, you don't even think about it. You just tie up. You just instinctively know it's time to do it.

Our friend Vern knew none of this, so when the vet went to tie up, Vern didn't. He just stood there.

Now this was _really_ awkward, as the vet was now kind of stuck. If you don't tie up, it's kind of hard to start the match. So the vet was forced to shout, "Come on!" at Vern to jar him into reality.

So they try again, and this time Vern complies, but his tieup is all gimpy and limp-wristed, like a junior high school kid forced to slow dance with a girl for the first time.

So now they've tied up, and in an attempt to add something to the match, the vet starts muscling Vern around the ring some, and all the while Vern's tripping over his own feet.

What happens next is forever burned into my memory. I'm sure everyone reading this has enjoyed a good botched wrestling move video on YouTube. You may even enjoy vising the site "Botchamania" for time to time. It's always kind of fun to watch a wrestling move go wrong, so long as no one gets hurt.

Well let me tell you something -- Vern was about to botch his botch. It was going to be botchtastic.

For some inexplicable reason, the vet decided to take Vern over with an arm drag out of the collar and elbow. This is a very basic bump for any trained wrestler to take, but to expect Vern to take one?

Bad idea.

Again for the benefit of those who've never wrestled, the arm drag involves some simple mechanics that require the cooperation of both parties. Specifically, both guys have to lock arms at the elbow. Once their arms are locked, the guy giving the arm drag lets himself fall backward toward the mat. He then uses his locked arm to brake his fall and slow himself down so that he can execute a quick barrel roll. This barrel roll is what creates the illusion of the arm drag. As soon as it happens, the guy taking the arm drag is supposed to do a forward roll over the guy giving the drag and land squarely on his back.

All of this hinges on locking arms at the elbow. Well, good old Vern didn't do that. So instead, the vet had nothing to slow his fall. He just fell hard and landed flat on his back in the middle of the ring.

But that's not the worst of it. It then dawns on Vern that he was supposed to bump for the arm drag and didn't, so in a panic, he decides to just bump anyway. But instead of doing a complete forward roll, he does only half of one and lands on his head...

...and his opponent.

He effectively belly flopped right onto the sternum of his opponent and simultaneously spiked his own head into the mat.

At the end of the night, a worker came out to ask me how I liked the show. Right away I asked, "What the hell was the deal with that kid? He couldn't work at all!"

To which the worker replied, "Oh, Vern? Yeah. He's going to a training camp next month."

Next _month_?!

Why was the kid in the ring at all if he hadn't received any proper training?!

Bottom line: Shows are _not_ training exercises. The sink-or-swim, learn-as-you-go training method does not work in pro wrestling. I don't care how athletic a kid is or how much wrestling the kid's watched on TV -- before anyone is allowed to step into a pro wrestling ring, he needs _months_ of formal, expert training.

Period.


----------



## ROH AmericanDragon

Yeah that is definally a big problem that I've seen on indy shows. The place I trained at has their monthly shows and such and one of their problems was they had some pretty good matches but then they would put on absolute crap, but no where near as bad as you described. For some reason this guy was being booked for the longest time, his name was 'Nightmare' now he most certainly lived up to his name.

When I had about 6 Months experience or so he came to training one day to just do drills with us and such.. I got paired up with him and it was a real simple drill, but it ended with a sunset flip. This guy who was a supposed 'veteran' was horrible. So I was giving him the sunset flip, as soon as I reached his head he swung back so fast and back bumped, I was very close to landing on my neck.. it was like he was giving me a flapjack except the drill was obviously a sunset flip. Then we did the drill again and he pulled the same fucking shit.

Yeah Bottom line people need to be trained on the shows... or at least competent.


----------



## Ham and Egger

Although the only indy fed I've ever gone to is ROH I still enjoy this thread. I get a good laugh out of it, keep 'em coming!


----------



## Lane

Agree and disagree with some of the stuff in this thread. Like ductape, a little on the canvas/turnbuckles wouldnt keep me from a show. I do agree though that non trained people shouldnt be in the ring. I remember one match which I think featured Stan Hansan and his oponet wasnt trained and just kinda stoud there and moved away from Hansan. Hanasn does something and pins the guy and the guy kicks out....Hansan didnt like that as he then pickd the kid up and MURDERD him with a short arm lariat.

Also think the stuff about every guy needing to be built like a brick shithouse is just that, shit. There are plenty of guys in wrestling that look like they have no place in the ring but when they step in they tear the roof down. Like Willie Mack for example.


----------



## smokinglizard

Lane said:


> Also think the stuff about every guy needing to be built like a brick shithouse is just that, shit. There are plenty of guys in wrestling that look like they have no place in the ring but when they step in they tear the roof down. Like Willie Mack for example.


I respect your opinion, but it's awfully hard to defend anything indie wrestling does, considering no one goes. If there are more empty seats than paying customers, you're doing something wrong. And it's kind of difficult to defend anything at that point.

Remember, the subject of the thread is why people don't go to indie shows, not what _you_ personally think is OK.

With that in mind, I ask you to seriously consider this: Is it unreasonable to conclude that the average person (not you) would be turned off by a card of 20 skinny/chubby guys who look like this:










It's just common sense that more people will be drawn and take your show more seriously if your guys look more like this:










and less like this:


----------



## Thomazbr

Well, the third dude could pretty much be a comedy gimmick or something.
and the dude on the right on the first photo reminds me too much of Jagged from 3.0


----------



## Neutronic

Why people don't go to indy shows

Most prefer WWE, don't know about them or don't care

I just wrote your book in 3 examples


----------



## Certified G

This is a cool thread, been reading it every day since you opened it. I have never been to an Indy show (or a wrestling show for that matter) because 1) they don't run any where I live and 2) I'm not gonna travel an hour or 2 just to see some crappy Dutch wrestling which I think has nearly all the problems you pointed out (I've seen videos and pics from Dutch feds which looked horrendous).


----------



## smokinglizard

Neutronic said:


> Why people don't go to indy shows
> 
> Most prefer WWE, don't know about them or don't care
> 
> I just wrote your book in 3 examples


Neutronic, I'm really beginning to worry about you, man! Haven't you been paying attention? The book is not about why fans don't go to indie shows. That's what this _thread_ is about. The book is about making the indies _better_.

Beer is good, but you really shouldn't drink so much beer so early! Ha ha...just kidding. Thanks for reading along.


----------



## jaw2929

Jesus, unbelievable these fucking guys. Wow. I love reading your posts smokinglizard.


----------



## Lane

smokinglizard said:


> I respect your opinion, *but it's awfully hard to defend anything indie wrestling does, considering no one goes.* If there are more empty seats than paying customers, you're doing something wrong. And it's kind of difficult to defend anything at that point.
> 
> Remember, the subject of the thread is why people don't go to indie shows, not what _you_ personally think is OK.
> 
> With that in mind, I ask you to seriously consider this: Is it unreasonable to conclude that the average person (not you) would be turned off by a card of 20 skinny/chubby guys who look like this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's just common sense that more people will be drawn and take your show more seriously if your guys look more like this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and less like this:


http://brainmouthfilter.files.wordp...uble-facepalm-fail-star_trek.jpeg?w=300&h=240

Please say hi to AIW, AAW, BEYOND, CZW, CHIKARA, and PWG for me. 

Also if I went to a show as a non wrestling fan and saw every guy looking like he was in a body building contest it would just down me. Id want an average Joe looking guy that I could relate to rather than a muscled up oily bald freakazoid.


----------



## USAUSA1

I'm blessed to have had good local wrestlers like Sean Denny,Preston Quinn,Damien Wayne and Scotty Blaze.


----------



## smokinglizard

Time for episode 9!

*This is part nine of the 50 part series discussing the Top 50 Reasons Wrestling Fans Don't Go to Indie Wrestling Shows.*

Reason #42: Escaped convicts.

*Sigh*

Look at this:










And this:










And this:










You know, you just have to wonder -- how do all these death row inmates keep escaping? I thought those maximum security prisons were pretty secure? And when they escape, why are they drawn to careers in indie pro wrestling? I would think that considering every single escaped death row inmate eventually finds his way into the indies, the authorities shouldn't have too much trouble finding them again.

Especially considering that they're still wearing their prison jumpers.

Oh, by the way -- that last guy calls himself "Deathrow Jeathrow." No kidding. I thought the name "Jethro" was spelled J-E-T-H-R-O. I guess you learn something new every day.

Seriously, though, there are so many words I can use to describe gimmicks like these. Here are a few: Trite, unimaginative, silly, unrealistic, unbelievable, boring, one-dimensional...oh, and stupid.

Can't forget stupid.

Stupid, trite gimmicks turn fans off. That is, if you've seen one escaped convict gimmick you've seen them all. And let's face it -- I would say about 99% of today's pro wrestling fans have all seen this guy:










So we've all already seen -- and grown bored of -- this gimmick. 

A long time ago.

Like, ten years ago.

At least.

Bottom line: If you want people to pay you money to come see your pro wrestling show, it has to be original. It has to be cutting edge. If you just keep recycling banal angles and gimmicks from yesteryear, you're going to get yesteryear's results: Low turnout.


----------



## FITZ

I know what you mean about the prisoner gimmick. I gone to a fair amount of shows and I feel like I've seen someone have a gimmick like that more times then I care to remember. It's also surprising that it's a virtual guarantee that the guy in the prison jumpsuit will suck.


----------



## N-como

.......


----------



## jaw2929

Nailz was a badass. Plus, didn't he legit knock Vince out over a monetary disagreement? Or threatened to kill him or whatever. That motherfucker LOOKED the part for sure. But yes, I totally agree.


----------



## Dimas75

The Corre said:


> This is a cool thread, been reading it every day since you opened it. I have never been to an Indy show (or a wrestling show for that matter) because 1) they don't run any where I live and 2) I'm not gonna travel an hour or 2 just to see some crappy Dutch wrestling which I think has nearly all the problems you pointed out (I've seen videos and pics from Dutch feds which looked horrendous).


WXW in Germany is very close to the Dutch border. Their Carot Gold 2012 tournament in Oberhausen (march) is like 30 mins away and their annual
shows can easily compete with USA's top indies.


----------



## Lane

WXW Germany is a fantastic promotion. Jon Ryan, Marty Scurll, and Big Van Walter are all very good.


----------



## FITZ

N-como said:


> Yes most indies are crap but hey, the stars have to start somewhere.


I mean if you want to hold them to the same standards as the stuff you see on TV I guess you could say that. A small indy show is a totally different experience but they really can be a lot of fun if you go in with the right mindset. With my local promotion I go to have a fun time. I can insult the wrestlers and they don't just ignore you like the wrestlers do in WWE and it feels like you're part of the show. The wrestling usually isn't great but some of the most fun at shows I've ever had was at these tiny shows with no name workers and 120 people. 

In fact if you made the offer right now to go see In Your Face Wrestling, a WWE House Show, a TNA non-PPV show, or an ROH show I would be going to In Your Face Wrestling. I always have a good time there and the same can't be said with some of the bigger ones.


----------



## Certified G

Dimas75 said:


> WXW in Germany is very close to the Dutch border. Their Carot Gold 2012 tournament in Oberhausen (march) is like 30 mins away and their annual
> shows can easily compete with USA's top indies.


Yep. WXW is a pretty sweet promotion, their co-promoted shows with CZW and occasionally BJW are my favorite. However I live in the south west of Holland, like the complete bottom left on Holland, which would still make it a couple hours to drive to the show unfortunately.


----------



## nailz_jaggzy

Like the idea of this thread but 'Get the book everyone's talking about'? I understand business and marketing.. but really?


----------



## smokinglizard

*Here's installment 10 of the 50 part series entitled "The Top 50 Reasons Why Fans Don't Go to Indie Pro Wrestling Shows."*

Reason #41: Walmart wrestlers.

Reality is reality, so let's face reality: Indie pro wrestlers don't make much money. _Most_ indie wrestlers, I'd say it's safe to say, actually _lose_ money by pursuing their "careers" as pro wrestlers, once you take into account all the time they spend, gas they burn, work they miss, and injuries they suffer.

So it's no secret that indie pro wrestlers need to have day jobs to stay alive. Frankly, I often marvel over why so many guys continue to do it, truth be told. In my new book, *Fixing the Indies,* I discuss the topic in depth when I introduce the concept I've termed _The Dream_. It's _The Dream_ that keeps these guys doing what they do. It's what forces them back into the ring despite all their nagging injuries, broken relationships, and lost money.

That's another topic. Pick up a copy of the book to read more about that. For the purposes of this post, however, we just need to know that indie wrestlers do what they do for very little money, meaning they need some day job to make ends meet. Understood.

But here's the rub: If you're making ends meet by stocking shelves at Walmart or serving up venti lattes at Starbucks, you don't want to advertise that fact on Internet forums and Facebook!

Think about it. People are just not going to pay their hard-earned money to see somebody ordinary do anything -- not unless that person is your mom or your girlfriend...or some hardcore, diehard indie pro wrestling fan who wears his very own wrestling mask to shows when he sits in the audience. Like this guy:










But other than guys like these, if you're ordinary, no one's going to pay money to see you. And guess what? If you post on Facebook about how your boss chewed you out because you stacked the Oreos on the wrong shelf or you post in an Internet forum that you got a great new job managing a Waffle House, _people are not going to come see you wrestle._

This holds true across the entire world of entertainment. Sure, plenty of superstars work as waiters and bartenders while they pursue their acting or singing careers, but guess what? When they get up on stage in front of whatever fans they have, they don't get on the microphone and announce to the audience that they spilled soup on one of their customers earlier in the day. _They try to project themselves as stars, even when they're not stars yet._

Indie pro wrestlers should, too, but they don't. I can't tell you how many times I see some indie wrestler post about his bad day wrangling shopping carts at K-Mart on Facebook. By doing this, you completely shatter whatever image you've created for yourself as a professional athlete or, at a minimum, someone bigger than the people sitting in the audience.

So if your real name is Mike McGillicutty and you pay the bills by working for the man at Walmart but you wrestle under the name Mikey Steamship at night, you should have two Facebook accounts -- one for your real self and one for your alter ego. On your "real" Facebook, you should post nothing -- *nothing* -- about your pro wrestling. No pictures, no mention of shows, no upcoming match...nothing. Keep the two identities 100% separate.

On your other Facebook account, assume your character and post all the pictures of you in wrestling tights to your heart's desire. There, you're Mikey Steamship. You're not Mike McGillicutty.

Just don't post anything about how you got stuck working the late shift again, counting inventory at Foot Locker.

Bottom line: If you want people to pay their money to come see you pretend that you're a superstar, you need to pretend you're a superstar.


----------



## jaw2929

Fair enough, it's simplicity at it's finest.


----------



## FITZ

I see where you're going but I think when fans have decided to add you on a facebook they already have seen the product and care about it enough to follow it on facebook. 

While I agree that people would be turned off on the fact that someone is talking about working at Wal-Mart on facebook I think that would only be for new fans. If you went to the show, had fun, and added a wrestler on facebook I don't think the fact that the wrestler has a shitty job will be the reason why you don't go back. 

You know what's really awkward? Going to a bunch of indy shows and seeing this guy wrestle a bunch of times and then you go to Sub Way and he's making your sandwich. We just avoided all eye contact and made no mention of anything but I think both of us knew where the other was from.


----------



## Certified G

When I read "Walmart wrestlers" I actually thought you'd be talking about wrestlers who look like they bought their gear from Walmart (some even look like they got it out of a dumpster). Another fine reason though.


----------



## N-como

.....


----------



## Dazzerlyne

Im not the biggest poster on this just want to say loving the thread so far and everything you said does make sense especially in the mid set that wrestling is suppose to be bigger than life characters and presentation and creating the illusion around it.


----------



## fp_atl

I'm absolutely *dying* to see one of these reasons turn out to be West Virginia. It should be. The entire scene is terrible. The talent isn't all bad, but the promoters are 95% immature childish bitches. I'd say you get that just about anywhere, though.


----------



## Zane630

Disagree on guys physique being why people won't plop down money. I don't care if you're big, if you can do what you need to, then I'll watch. That's like saying nobody like Ron Jeremy's porn because he had a gut. Dude is a master of his craft, it doesn't matter if he's fat. Sami Callihan, Kevin Steen, Willie Mack, and Colt Cabana are "chubby" guys I'll gladly spend my money on. Talent out weighs physique any day of the week.


----------



## FITZ

Sami Callihan is in pretty great shape now. I think he used to be big but the guy looks like a legit athlete and the same could be said for Cabana. He's a bog guy but you don't look at him and say that he's fat or anything like that. 

With the physique I think it all has to do with whether or not you look ridiculous in your ring gear. The guy that was posted in the thread looks really stupid and that's more of the reason why a fan would be put off with something like that.


----------



## Certified G

TaylorFitz said:


> Sami Callihan is in pretty great shape now. I think he used to be big but the guy looks like a legit athlete and the same could be said for Cabana. He's a bog guy but you don't look at him and say that he's fat or anything like that.


I agree, Sami still has some "lose fat" I guess you could say, but he's in much better shape then I remember him being in a couple years ago.


----------



## smokinglizard

Zane630 said:


> Disagree on guys physique being why people won't plop down money. I don't care if you're big, if you can do what you need to, then I'll watch. That's like saying nobody like Ron Jeremy's porn because he had a gut. Dude is a master of his craft, it doesn't matter if he's fat. Sami Callihan, Kevin Steen, Willie Mack, and Colt Cabana are "chubby" guys I'll gladly spend my money on. Talent out weighs physique any day of the week.


We're now comparing pro wrestling to porn? Hello, from the gutter.

*Again, let me make my point clear: One or two fat guys on your card is OK. Ten or fifteen fat guys on your card is not.*

Period. Again, I am *not* saying that I think guys like Dusty Rhodes should never have been allowed to wrestle. Damn. Wow. I don't know how I can make myself any clearer.

Sorry...don't mean to be in Angry Bird mode this morning. Let's continue:

*This is part 11 of the 50 part series entitled, "The Top 50 Reasons Why Pro Wrestling Fans Don't Go to Indie Shows."*

Reason #40: Managers.

I know what I'm about to say is probably going to annoy a lot of people, but I just have to say it. My apologies to my friends out there who work this gimmick, but I just can't let it slide.

I hate managers.

There. I said it.

And I'm not taking it back. Now, let's stay on topic. You might be saying, "Hey, Norm, I thought this thread was about why people don't go to indie pro wrestling shows, not about what you happen to dislike."

That's 100% true.

But managers play their role in the empty-seat-O-rama that is indie pro wrestling. Allow me to make my case by presenting you this:










This guy goes by the name Dandy Jack, and he's a manager in indie wrestling promotions in Florida, Alabama, Georgia, and, I think, Mississippi. Now don't get me wrong -- I don't know old DJ personally, but I'm pretty sure he's a nice guy. But his picture is posted on the Internet, so you know what that means...

He's fair game.

I want to call your attention to something in the picture. No, not the fact that his blue hat doesn't match his slate blue jacket. No, not his 1982 glasses. No, not the fact that his slate blue jacket looks like he got it off the clearance rack at the Salvation Army. No, not the fact that he looks like he was shot out of a cannon _through_ the Salvation Army.

No, no, no.

It's the cane. Or, well, what _used_ to be a cane.

Evidently ol' DJ doesn't know they also sell complete, fully functional canes at the Salvation Army, too, because I remember being at a show where a fan at ringside who reminded me a lot of Samuel Jackson asked DJ, "Hey, DJ, where's the rest of your cane?"

"I used it last week on an opponent," he said as he swung the half cane in a downward striking motion.

That was, like, 2002.

DJ is still carrying this cane today.

Anyway, wow, it's really been hard to stay on topic in this installment. There's just so much going on here. Let's get back on track. To that end, I ask you this: If you were at an indie wrestling show and you saw DJ come out with a wrestler -- any wrestler, doesn't matter -- and you saw him carrying his "cane," which of the following would you say is going to happen in the upcoming match?

a) DJ will hit his wrestler's opponent with the cane and secure the victory for his guy
b) The opponent will duck and DJ will accidentally hit his own guy with it
c) The opponent will take the cane away from DJ and hit DJ's wrestler with it
d) DJ will miss, the cane will bounce off the ropes, and DJ will absurdly hit himself with it

If you answered a), b), c), or d), ding, ding, ding! You're right! Now go kick yourself in the ass for watching so much damned pro wrestling.

This is where the point gets annoying for anyone who works the manager gimmick: Managers add very little to the show and do too much to detract from it. It's a simple matter of fact that whenever a manager is involved in a match, he's going to be involved in some uninspired ripoff finish, i.e., he's going to interfere.

Somehow the referee will conveniently get distracted, the manager will do something "dastardly," and the heel will either secure the pinfall or the babyface will pull off something miraculous and turn the tables.

You know, this wouldn't be so bad if it happened, maybe, once a year.

But it happens at _every_ damned wrestling show...and oftentimes during multiple matches on the _same damned card_!

It's like seeing a magic act and every other magician does the saw-a-lady-in-half trick. And you go to the magic act every month. So you see the lady get sawed in half a dozen times every month.

Consider that last analogy for a moment. Think about it. That's _exactly_ what indie shows are doing! It's like they're doing the same corny magic trick multiple times during the same show, and they run the show every month.

And we wonder why people don't come?!?

Bottom line: Actually, no there are many bottom lines to this installment.

Bottom line #1: There are too damned many managers in indie pro wrestling. Enough already. Only one -- maybe -- is allowed per show.

Bottom line #2: Managers pull the same stupid gimmicks every time they emerge from behind the curtain. That results in dull, predictable pro wrestling shows. And that results in people not buying tickets.

Bottom line #3: Managers really do nothing other than make a lot of noise, be annoying, and block the view of the match. Do the fans a favor -- buy a ticket and take a seat.


----------



## xzeppelinfootx

I almost didn't post anything because i thought my short piece of mind on this thread would be mostly negative and overall pointless, but clearly pointless is acceptable. (See Above Post)

What even is this. Reading through this all as you pick apart the Indies has been rough. Quite rough. I mean the fact that there are just so many exceptions to every single point you've made should say something. It seems like everything you've pointed out is mostly a case of uninspired individuals rather than The indies being a broken system. Wait whats that, sometimes Indies don't have that extra money to make everything look amazing? By gawd.

Gimmicks get reused, finishes get reused, second hand rings get used, fat people attempt to wrestle, managers are effective when its the correct manager. Chances are the top manager of the last ten years was from the indies (Larry Sweeney). All i can say is why I do or don't go to Indy shows. Appeal. 90% of which has to do with the names on the card.


----------



## Black Element

Most of the stuff your having a sook about is people being too cheap to afford the more expensive items
Yet, you want people to buy your book?


----------



## smokinglizard

xzeppelinfootx said:


> I almost didn't post anything because i thought my short piece of mind on this thread would be mostly negative and overall pointless, but clearly pointless is acceptable. (See Above Post)


Yes, pointless is always acceptable!

Seriously, though, thanks for commenting. All comments -- positive or negative -- are very welcomed by me. Negative comments make this fun.



> What even is this? Reading through this all as you pick apart the Indies has been rough. Quite rough.


Sorry it's been difficult reading for you. You know, it's not like there's a test at the end, though. I'm not forcing anyone to read the thread!



> I mean the fact that there are just so many exceptions to every single point you've made should say something.


Doesn't the fact that you've been reading the thread also say something?

Are there exceptions to the rules? Of course -- there always are. The rule for wide receivers in the NFL is that they should be very tall and very fast. Look at the top NFL receivers and that rule generally holds true: Calvin Johnson, Brandon Marshall, Andre Johnson, Dez Bryant, and Roy Williams all have NBA height and great speed.

But then there's New England's Wes Welker, who is ranked in the top 10 but doesn't have great height (5' 9") or great speed.

But does that invalidate the guideline that the best receivers are very tall and very fast? Of course not. Welker is just an exception.

That's the problem in pro wrestling, especially the indies -- because it's a fake sport, it's possible to make every single guy on the card an exception to common sense, which is fail.



> It seems like everything you've pointed out is mostly a case of uninspired individuals rather than The indies being a broken system.


I don't have to present the case that the indie system is broken. I don't have to speak a word. The empty seats say it all.



> Wait what's that, sometimes Indies don't have that extra money to make everything look amazing? By gawd.


I've heard this argument before and some folks here have made similar ones. It's the old, "The indies are supposed to look this way!" argument. But that's a lot like saying nasty restaurants are _supposed_ to be nasty.



> Gimmicks get reused, finishes get reused, second hand rings get used, fat people attempt to wrestle, managers are effective when its the correct manager. Chances are the top manager of the last ten years was from the indies (Larry Sweeney). All I can say is why I do or don't go to Indy shows. Appeal. 90% of which has to do with the names on the card.


And all I'm saying is if it were done better and more professionally, it would appeal to more people besides you.

So here's part 12...and remember -- there _will_ be a test at the end.

*This is part 12 of the 50 part series entitled, "The Top 50 Reasons Why Pro Wrestling Fans Don't Go to Indie Wrestling Shows."*

Pictures speak a thousand words, so they say, so let's look at a few.

Behold:





































Do I even have to write this installment?

Yes, I suppose so...

At first glance, you know where I'm going with this -- the fake flamer gimmick. Yes, I'm going to denounce this. Of course I am. Who wouldn't? But for Peter, Paul, and Mary's sake why the hell does this gimmick still exist?

To understand the magnitude of the putridity of this gimmick, let's examine its history. The flamer gimmick was born in 1941, when an obscure, smallish wrestler named George Wagner changed the world of professional wrestling by debuting his new persona, Gorgeous George.

The idea was simple: He came out and acted like a flaming queer. Audiences back then had never seen anything like it, and, since back then overt homophobia was the norm, George immediately got over. It's important to keep in mind, however, that it was _1941_. Back then, segregation was the law in the South, it was common to use racial slurs in public, and minstrel shows like the one below were perfectly acceptable form of entertainment.










So Gorgeous George got over by tapping into the fans' hatred of homosexuals. That was the way it was way back then.

But it's 2012, ladies and gentlemen. Homophobia is not a social norm anymore. Sure, there are still plenty of homophobes in the world, but their views are typically not welcomed out in the open. To express homophobic sentiments in the open today is viewed by most as, well, unsophisticated, insensitive, and crude.

So then why in Hades are people still doing this in indie pro wrestling?

Oh, that's right -- because it's unsophisticated, insensitive, and crude.

And who wouldn't want to buy a ticket to an unsophisticated, insensitive, and crude form of entertainment? Lines should wrap around the building, right?

The fake flamer gimmick points up something further -- that people involved in it are so unimaginative, so uninspired, and so rotely programmed, this is the best they can do. Seriously, think about this. What full-grown adult man would think it's a good idea to dress up in a stereotyped caricature pink, frou-frou costume and go out in public? So on Saturday you dress up as a flamer by putting on makeup and wearing pink tights, but then on Sunday you crack open a beer and flop down in your recliner to watch a football game?

And that's the sad part -- that people who embrace and/or allow this gimmick in their shows are either too dumb or too programmed to realize that most people nowadays aren't homophobic. They're completely out of touch with today's reality and are oblivious to how badly they turn the general public off. They continue to do the same stupid things over and over again with nary a thought as to _why_ they do it.

And then, again, wonder why their seats are empty.

Hey, Gorgeous George got over in 1941, right? So why can't we do it today? Makes all the sense in the world!

Bottom line: Enough with the flamer gimmick. It's offensive to most viewers and not funny. Think of something new. Use your brain. If you need some inspiration, check out my new book, _Fixing the Indies._


----------



## Genking48

Joey Ryan, included in this thread!? bullshit!

The others I can see why, because well, they look horrible, but Joey Ryan, again, let me say, bullshit.


----------



## Cactus

BigfellaTM said:


> Most of the stuff your having a sook about is people being too cheap to afford the more expensive items
> Yet, you want people to buy your book?


The main point you want to keep in mind, if your promotion is so skint you are using duct tape all over your ring and etc., you shouldn't be doing shows in the first place.


----------



## Lane

GTFO with posting Joey "Magnum PA" Ryan in this thread.


----------



## jawbreaker

yeah, Joey Ryan's gimmick isn't that.

Good point though.


----------



## joeylsemail

never been to an indy show but i love reading the comments on this good topic.big time 90's wrestling fan so def was a huge ecw fan growing up too.


----------



## sharkboy22

Made me chuckle a bit. I for one can't wait to see the other 49 parts.

Indy promoters are cheap but let's be honest how much do they really make in the first place?


----------



## stonefort

I'm enjoying this series. I've never been to an indie show. But it's interesting reading this.

Personally I think the whole indie wrestling thing is doomed to remain a cultural ghetto but I admire your attempt to save it.

How many "indie" anything have much success? Especially anything that requires a decent-sized paying live audience. The only thing I can think of is music.

But with indie music the singers and bands can work cheap as just background at a bar or coffee shop. The music act is typically young and just doing it for fun, they aren't trying to make money. And the bar owner is making money off drinks and food, not off admission to see the indie band nobody has heard of. And the crowd is there mainly to drink and socialize and find somebody to date, not to see the band.

Hell, a lot of bars host open mic nights, which are a step below even indie bands. It's people thinking about maybe someday starting a band.

Why do indie bands have vastly more success than indie wrestling? 

1) Vastly more people like music than wrestling.
2) The venue is some place you'd already want to go - a bar, coffee shop, restaurant.
3) The music is not the primary attraction. They are there as background noise for your socializing and to make the bar, pub seem interesting and exciting.
4) The crowd is young people making friends and finding dates.

I'm trying to think of some "indie" things I've attended.

There are off-off-off broadway shows. My mom likes musical theater and there's a cheap dinner theater place not far from me. We've gone there several times. But you get a decent meal and the singing is quite good, the acting less so but still decent. These people typically have studied singing and acting for years -- at high school and college -- and are either at the beginning or end of a failed career. Still these people have been putting on school plays and the like since they were kids. And being aspiring actors and singers their whole life they are typically at least reasonably attractive.

But even there it's mainly a restaurant with a twist. And it's not really "indie", I guess. It's a functioning small business that's been around for a decade plus and pays rent. It doesn't survive on charity.

I guess community theater is the lowest form of plays and musicals. 

Ah, improv comedy. There is an improv comedy group I know about. They offer classes and put on shows. And part of their schtick is at the end of the class the students put on a show. I went to one. It was in a bookstore/coffeeshop in a college town. Admission was like $5 or something. It was terrible. One of the least funny things I've ever seen. Although it was so unintentionally bad it was almost good.

That might be the most similar to wrestling. The comedy troupe made money by charging tuition to anybody who pays. So unfunny people could buy their way on stage to be not funny in front of a crowd, a really small crowd. Some friends and I went out of boredom after seeing a flyer in another coffee shop.

Wrestling is a tough sell. It can't really be background music like a lot of other "indie" type stuff. Or at normal, desirable locations like restaurants and bars.

How about wrestling dinner theater? Or a three act play with wrestling. First act you meet the hero who wants to win the championship and the villain who'll do anything to stop him. Second act the hero moves up the ranks and earns a title shot, but the villain interferes and injures him. Third act the hero overcomes the injury and defeats the villain and wins the championship. That'd be more a family friendly type show. I can imagine moms taking their kids to that at the mall or something.

Anyway, interesting series of posts. Got me thinking.


----------



## USAUSA1

smokinglizard said:


> Yes, pointless is always acceptable!
> 
> Seriously, though, thanks for commenting. All comments -- positive or negative -- are very welcomed by me. Negative comments make this fun.
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry it's been difficult reading for you. You know, it's not like there's a test at the end, though. I'm not forcing anyone to read the thread!
> 
> 
> 
> Doesn't the fact that you've been reading the thread also say something?
> 
> Are there exceptions to the rules? Of course -- there always are. The rule for wide receivers in the NFL is that they should be very tall and very fast. Look at the top NFL receivers and that rule generally holds true: Calvin Johnson, Brandon Marshall, Andre Johnson, Dez Bryant, and Roy Williams all have NBA height and great speed.
> 
> But then there's New England's Wes Welker, who is ranked in the top 10 but doesn't have great height (5' 9") or great speed.
> 
> But does that invalidate the guideline that the best receivers are very tall and very fast? Of course not. Welker is just an exception.
> 
> That's the problem in pro wrestling, especially the indies -- because it's a fake sport, it's possible to make every single guy on the card an exception to common sense, which is fail.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't have to present the case that the indie system is broken. I don't have to speak a word. The empty seats say it all.
> 
> 
> 
> I've heard this argument before and some folks here have made similar ones. It's the old, "The indies are supposed to look this way!" argument. But that's a lot like saying nasty restaurants are _supposed_ to be nasty.
> 
> 
> 
> And all I'm saying is if it were done better and more professionally, it would appeal to more people besides you.
> 
> So here's part 12...and remember -- there _will_ be a test at the end.
> 
> *This is part 12 of the 50 part series entitled, "The Top 50 Reasons Why Pro Wrestling Fans Don't Go to Indie Wrestling Shows."*
> 
> Pictures speak a thousand words, so they say, so let's look at a few.
> 
> Behold:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do I even have to write this installment?
> 
> Yes, I suppose so...
> 
> At first glance, you know where I'm going with this -- the fake flamer gimmick. Yes, I'm going to denounce this. Of course I am. Who wouldn't? But for Peter, Paul, and Mary's sake why the hell does this gimmick still exist?
> 
> To understand the magnitude of the putridity of this gimmick, let's examine its history. The flamer gimmick was born in 1941, when an obscure, smallish wrestler named George Wagner changed the world of professional wrestling by debuting his new persona, Gorgeous George.
> 
> The idea was simple: He came out and acted like a flaming queer. Audiences back then had never seen anything like it, and, since back then overt homophobia was the norm, George immediately got over. It's important to keep in mind, however, that it was _1941_. Back then, segregation was the law in the South, it was common to use racial slurs in public, and minstrel shows like the one below were perfectly acceptable form of entertainment.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So Gorgeous George got over by tapping into the fans' hatred of homosexuals. That was the way it was way back then.
> 
> But it's 2012, ladies and gentlemen. Homophobia is not a social norm anymore. Sure, there are still plenty of homophobes in the world, but their views are typically not welcomed out in the open. To express homophobic sentiments in the open today is viewed by most as, well, unsophisticated, insensitive, and crude.
> 
> So then why in Hades are people still doing this in indie pro wrestling?
> 
> Oh, that's right -- because it's unsophisticated, insensitive, and crude.
> 
> And who wouldn't want to buy a ticket to an unsophisticated, insensitive, and crude form of entertainment? Lines should wrap around the building, right?
> 
> The fake flamer gimmick points up something further -- that people involved in it are so unimaginative, so uninspired, and so rotely programmed, this is the best they can do. Seriously, think about this. What full-grown adult man would think it's a good idea to dress up in a stereotyped caricature pink, frou-frou costume and go out in public? So on Saturday you dress up as a flamer by putting on makeup and wearing pink tights, but then on Sunday you crack open a beer and flop down in your recliner to watch a football game?
> 
> And that's the sad part -- that people who embrace and/or allow this gimmick in their shows are either too dumb or too programmed to realize that most people nowadays aren't homophobic. They're completely out of touch with today's reality and are oblivious to how badly they turn the general public off. They continue to do the same stupid things over and over again with nary a thought as to _why_ they do it.
> 
> And then, again, wonder why their seats are empty.
> 
> Hey, Gorgeous George got over in 1941, right? So why can't we do it today? Makes all the sense in the world!
> 
> Bottom line: Enough with the flamer gimmick. It's offensive to most viewers and not funny. Think of something new. Use your brain. If you need some inspiration, check out my new book, _Fixing the Indies._


In Lucha Libre the flamer gimmick was extremely popular until Pena died in 2006. But Pena was gay and probably enjoy it for personal reasons. He had a stable of gay guys, the babyfaces and the heels. You rarely see the gimmick in lucha libre anymore especially since Pena died.

I hope you don't say the "Evil Foreigner" gimmick is outdated because that actually apply to today times and will always be a heat machine in wrestling. Some things never gets old. Evil asian,evil japanese,evil middle eastern,etc. but am getting ahead of myself.


----------



## chris2038

USAUSA1 said:


> I hope you don't say the "Evil Foreigner" gimmick is outdated because that actually apply to today times and will always be a heat machine in wrestling. Some things never gets old. Evil asian,evil japanese,evil middle eastern,etc. but am getting ahead of myself.


No. It doesn't apply simply because it's unsophisticated, insensitive, and crude. 

Promotors - why limit your target audience to the stereotypical blue collared/working class by allowing these gimmicks to fly? I'm convinced that sterotype only applies in very small numbers these days - hence why the seats are totally f'n empty. It's time to get creative and stimulate the crowd the proper way instead of generating controversial "cheap heat" and potentially alienating repeat tickey buyers who actually have use of their brain. It's the 21st century, remember?


----------



## LarryCoon

Who the hell comes up with those gimmicks? More importantly, who are the people that enjoys a man wearing a costume that emphasizes on his nipples?


----------



## USAUSA1

I notice a picture of Joey Ryan. He doesn't do a flamer gimmick(from what I've seen of him), he just wears pink LOL. 

With that being said, the flamer gimmick can still work in a major promotion, but in the US indies probably not.


----------



## smokinglizard

USAUSA1 said:


> I notice a picture of Joey Ryan. He doesn't do a flamer gimmick(from what I've seen of him), he just wears pink LOL.


A lot of folks here and elsewhere have come to the defense of Joey Ryan. But look here: The First Look at Joey Ryan's Gay Character

Perhaps the character is not portrayed as a "flamer" and is just supposed to be a "realistic" homosexual. Who knows? But considering the Wrestling Retribution Project promotion has other guys on the roster named "Brick Shithouse," "Das Nihilist," "Father Dante," "Punchline," "Satanic," and "Mass Murder," I doubt it.


----------



## Lane

He plays a homosexual in that promotion. All the guys got gimmicks simmilar to their well known gimmicks or way different from their well known gimmicks.


----------



## Zane630

Yeah, you're full of shit.


----------



## charliebrown

Great thread. Have you ever seen any shows in Ohio, and, if so, which promotions are your favorite?


----------



## Beatles123

Don't like Indys?

Don't watch.

You would have hated ECW in its infancy!


----------



## chris2038

I'm in agreement with all of the OP's points so far. The people who have disagreed so far have pretty much gone out of their way to not understand the true underlying message in his posts. As a former student (_not a wrestler_) having worked just over 20 matches and having helped out at many shows, I have seen far too many fans leave in disgust from the lackluster effort brought forth by promoters and workers alike. It started to become quite embarrassing at times. Pro wrestling is supposed to be a prestigious/larger than life spectacle of entertainment. 

IMO, being a pro wrestler is no different than being a doctor, lawyer, accountant, or engineer IN THE SENSE THAT you owe a duty of care to your profession. The onus is on you as a prudent member of that industry to insert your professional judgment as you see fit. THAT is your job. You are to exercise your craft within the framework you've been taught by those who have successfully mastered it all. 

This is where the problem sets in - the blind have been leading the blind for years, thus snowballing into absolute hell. Everything from local shows to videos posted on youtube is embarrassing the image of independent pro wrestling on a daily basis. There are not enough trainers/school owners who know what they are doing, nor are there enough who have the basic business sense to know what’s best for the industry. For example, knowing who to reject and who to bring on as students is key to protecting the business in many, many ways. Indy wrestling schools seem to attract rejects, slackers, losers, and failures of all kind. How these types are let on any kind of card (yes, even student shows) is beyond me. Very few walk in with any kind of business background or common sense. 

Pertaining to promoters, there are very few business-savvy investors who are interested in opening up shop, and I really can’t blame them. The business no longer attracts fundamentally sound businessmen who do what’s needed to build his business and improve the image of the industry simultaneously. The business now attracts stubborn rejects that not only lack the start-up capital to build a marketable product, but also lack any kind of basic business knowledge needed to preserve any kind of success that may endure. 

Presentation is everything. Pro wrestling is on thin ice, and any aspect of your show/work that doesn’t surpass the viewer’s expectations is simply bleeding the industry dry. 

A message to smarks impersonating pro wrestlers every weekend: ask yourself whether the average/casual/mass market fan would laugh at any of your work. Is your “look” marketable? Do you carry yourself like an immature jerk-off at shows, on facebook, or on public forums for the common mark to see? Are you happy with less than 150 paid customers in the crowd? If so, please leave and become a ticket buyer ASAP.

Patiently awaiting the next installment…


----------



## dele

TL;DR MOST INDIES SUCK BECAUSE THEY'RE RUN BY CHEAP PRICKS WHO COULDN'T BOOK THEIR WAY OUT OF A WET PAPER BAG.


----------



## milkman7

I think dele wins.


----------



## Black

I myself has never go to a wrestling show myself, but this is pretty entertaining to watch. Keep it up, haters are gonna hate!


----------



## dele

Vinnie said:


> I myself has never go to a wrestling show myself, but this is pretty entertaining to watch. Keep it up, haters are gonna hate!


Might be one of the weirder posts I've seen. Repped.


----------



## smokinglizard

Beatles123 said:


> Don't like Indys?
> 
> Don't watch.


Isn't this a lot like saying, "Didn't like a movie? Don't write a review. Just don't go see it again."

This board would be a really quiet place if people didn't come here to grouse about what they don't like about today's pro wrestling. Discussion is what makes this fun.



> You would have hated ECW in its infancy!


I watched ECW all throughout its infancy. Did I like it? Can't say that I did. I think like most people, I was consumed by the shock and awe.



chris2038 said:


> I'm in agreement with all of the OP's points so far. The people who have disagreed so far have pretty much gone out of their way to not understand the true underlying message in his posts. As a former student (_not a wrestler_) having worked just over 20 matches and having helped out at many shows, I have seen far too many fans leave in disgust from the lackluster effort brought forth by promoters and workers alike. It started to become quite embarrassing at times. Pro wrestling is supposed to be a prestigious/larger than life spectacle of entertainment.


Amen.



> Pertaining to promoters, there are very few business-savvy investors who are interested in opening up shop, and I really can’t blame them. The business no longer attracts fundamentally sound businessmen who do what’s needed to build his business and improve the image of the industry simultaneously. The business now attracts stubborn rejects that not only lack the start-up capital to build a marketable product, but also lack any kind of basic business knowledge needed to preserve any kind of success that may endure.


This is essentially the subject of my book, _Fixing the Indies_, that pro wrestling -- the indies included -- should be run like a professional, efficient _business._



> Presentation is everything. Pro wrestling is on thin ice, and any aspect of your show/work that doesn’t surpass the viewer’s expectations is simply bleeding the industry dry.


Yep. And that's another huge topic in the book. In fact, I dedicate an entire chapter to it. And not only do I stress the importance of appearances, I break down everything -- the ring, the ref, the announcer, the wrestlers, the banners -- everything and give exact details on how to present everything professionally.



> A message to smarks impersonating pro wrestlers every weekend: ask yourself whether the average/casual/mass market fan would laugh at any of your work. Is your “look” marketable? Do you carry yourself like an immature jerk-off at shows, on facebook, or on public forums for the common mark to see? Are you happy with less than 150 paid customers in the crowd? If so, please leave and become a ticket buyer ASAP.
> 
> Patiently awaiting the next installment…


Wait no longer! Here it is...

*This is part 13 of the 50 part series entitled, "The Top 50 Reasons Why Fans Don't Go to Indie Pro Wrestling Shows."*

Reason: #38: Plastic championship belts. 

I love wrestling championship belts. I really do. Good ones, that is. There's just something very cool about a big gold wrestling title belt being hoisted into the air by your victorious champion.

But title belts present a very serious problem for the indies: They're expensive.

Very expensive.

Last time I priced one, a basic three plate brass (not gold) belt runs close to $1,000. That's a major investment for just about any indie wrestling promoter. So I recognize that there's a real challenge for any indie promoter wanting to get his promotion off the ground -- there are just so many expenses.

With that said, though, look at this:










Now I just can't resist getting off topic here, considering this sight above. Here we have a promotion's champion who's dressed up -- badly -- as the Crow...from the 1994 movie by the same name. Evidently this guy really appreciated Brandon Lee's defining performance as the undead avenger, so he decided it would be a really good idea to copycat it (i.e., rip it off) in the indies.

Wait...didn't somebody already rip off this character in pro wrestling? Seems kind of familiar...

Despite that, evidently the promoter agrees that this is a great gimmick, as he has rewarded this guy by crowning him as his promotion's champion.

Oh, check this out:










Admittedly the image above has really nothing to do with this installment, but when I saw it I just couldn't resist posting it here. So in the promotion we have the Crow as the champion, and the Crow has his very own Mini Me. You know, there are things that you witness or experience in life that are so off-the-wall that a month later you're like, "Did that really happen or did I dream it?"

Well, this picture above is one of those experiences. A month from now I'm going to be asking myself, "Did I really see a midget dressed up as the Crow in the middle of a wrestling ring?"

Anyway, back to the topic at hand.

Notice -- if you somehow haven't already -- the thing draped over the Crow's shoulder. At first glance you'd say it's a replica of the famous Big Gold Belt with some computer-generated paper letters glued onto it to denote the promotion it represents. That's bad enough. But you know what's worse?

It's not a replica.

It's a toy.

A plastic toy.

It's this thing, available right here on the web for $16.75 from Toy Country: WWE Licensed Title Belt by Mattel.

This all reminds me of a story of a time when I was an indie wrestler. For you younger guys reading this, yes, that's back in the Stone Age, when WWE was known as the WWF and Eric Bischoff was fetching coffee for the greatest pro wrestling promoter of all time, Verne Gagne.

Specifically, it was 1989, if memory serves me.

This indie promoter I knew ran a promotion where he, of course, put himself over. He was the champion. His buddies were the tag champions. His son was the "Junior Heavyweight" champion. But that's nothing out of the ordinary...pretty much par for the course for any indie promotion. Anyway, this guy's name was Billy, and he was a nice enough dude. Never stiffed me. Didn't pay very well, but he never stiffed me.

So Billy calls me up and asks me if I want to come out and work for him on a show he was doing at a dog track. Turns out he had scored a pretty good deal where he would run wrestling matches in between dog races at this greyhoud park. It worked like this: The dog track would run a dog race, which typically lasts all of 30 seconds. Then Billy would stage a match in between the time they'd be taking the dogs from the previous race off the track and bringing the new dogs onto it.

Which meant each match could last no longer than five minutes.

Seriously.

Anyway, So Billy called me up and asked if I wanted to work this gig, so I said sure. So I went and worked my quick four minute match, collected a $100 payday, and called it a day. My match was somewhere on the midcard, so after my match, I changed into my civilian clothes and went upstairs to the clubhouse to watch the rest of the dog races and the rest of the matches scheduled for the day.

The main event featured Billy against some masked wrestler dude whom I didn't particularly like, as he was stiffer than a crowbar. It was a match for the belt, of course, and Billy just totally squashed the masked dude. When it was all over, the referee handed Billy his belt, and I noticed that the letters SWA were etched big on the center plate.

Billy's promotion wasn't named SWA; it was named IPW (Independent Pro Wrestling).

Odd.

So after the match, I caught up with Billy in the dressing room. I asked him, "Hey, Billy, what's up with your title belt? Why does it say 'SWA' on it?"

He said, "Oh, I bought it off a guy who ran a promotion called the Southern Wrestling Alliance. He went broke, so I got the belt from him for a song."

"Oh," I said. "But then why did you name your promotion IPW? Why didn't you call it SWA to match your belt?"

To that he scoffed. "Because, Nooooorm," he said as if I was some moron mark who had just crawled out from under a rock, "I wanted my promotion to have an _original_ name."

IPW...

Original name...

IPW...

Original name...

True story.

I assure you I didn't dream it.

Anyway, let's go off on another tangent for just a second. Let's think about the decision made by the guys running the dog track to have wrestling matches in between dog races. On the surface it sounds like a pretty good idea -- have wrestling matches _and_ dog races so that you hopefully draw a bigger crowd to bet on the dogs.

But if you've never been to a dog track, let me quickly explain how it works. They run a race. The race is over in about 30 seconds. In between races there are about ten minutes of idle time, and that's done on purpose. Those ten minutes allow the people betting on the dog races to go to the betting window to place their wagers on the upcoming race. You want to allow enough time for everyone who wants to place a bet to get to the window and fork over their cash.

After all, that's how dog tracks make their money.

But how fail is it to schedule pro wrestling matches in between the dog races?! Think about it -- you want people to be going to the window to place a bet, but instead you distract them with a wrestling match? So instead of going to the window and shelling out their money, the marks instead stay at ringside and yell, "Take his mask off! Take his mask off!"

Anyway, what was this installment about again?

Oh, yeah. Toy championship belts.

Here's the deal: If you can't afford to commission a real wrestling belt for your promotion, buy a used one on e-Bay. There are tons of them out there. And if you buy a used one, make your promotion's name line up with whatever letters are on it.

And if you _still_ can't afford a real belt, you're better off not having one at all than sticking some stickers on a Made in China plastic toy and trying to get over on the fans that it's the real thing.

Bottom line: Presentation is everything. If your belt looks like cheap junk, so does your promotion.


----------



## Cactus

Most indies shouldn't have a belt, period. There's no denying most indies aren't at all prestigious and unless your fed is well established, don't buy one. It just comes of as cheesy and forced.


----------



## FITZ

I disagree with that completely. There has to be some sort of top prize that you should be going for. Even Evolve which has no championships had a wins leader and those kinds of things so someone could be considered the best. The whole concept of a wrestling company is that the guys there want to be the best and there has to be some way of saying who the best is which is what the belt is for.


----------



## USAUSA1

Trophy is more affordable I assume.


----------



## Rah

Damn you, OP, for hating on mah IPW (Insanity Pro) and Mini-Estrellas. :\


----------



## Lane

Insanity Pro is the shit. Naptown Dragons and Billy Roc FTW.


----------



## smokinglizard

*This is installment 14 of the 50 part series entitled, "The Top 50 Reasons Why Wrestling Fans Don't Go to Indie Shows."*

Reason #37: Bad acting.

Oh, boy, I am so excited to bring you this installment! Just wait until you see the wonderful gem I've discovered. Talk about a true diamond in the rough...you're going to be stunned!

Up to now, I've used still pictures to help illustrate the main point of each installment. That's because a still photograph forever freezes a moment in time. That still, frozen shot forever seals a dramatic, immemorable instant in our collective consciousness. You know, a picture like this:










...and this:










...and this:










...and this:










Oh, that last one really just tingles the spine, doesn't it? Gives me the goosebumps. What a proud, iconic moment.

But today I must depart from my norm and ask -- no, _beseech_ you to watch this yet undiscovered jackpot in the waiting.

I know, I know -- typically people reading a forum post don't want to have to stop and watch some three or four minute YouTube video to get the gyst of the post. And I also understand that 99% of the time that someone posts a video in a forum, it's just some crappy video they shot and they're just trying to drive up their number views. So then if you're a rube and you click on the video the OP begs you to watch, you're left wondering, "Now why did he want me to watch that? Oh, wait a minute -- I just got rooked!"

I _promise_ you that's not the case here.

Let me just tell you how I stumbled on this vein of pure gold. I live in northwest Florida, which, if you didn't know, is a fortified chunk of the Deep South. South Florida and Northwest Florida aren't like two different states, they're like two different worlds. Here, when you cross the state line from Alabama into Florida, you're greeted by a massive Confederate Battle Flag flapping in the wind and blindingly illuminated by airport runway lights. The flag pole's on private property, so when the state asked the group that flies the flag to take it down, what did they do?

They replaced it with an even _bigger_ rebel flag.

Why is this relevant? Well, because a lot of folks who know me around here have been sending me messages, complaining about how I'm unfairly targeting southern wrestling promotions in this series. It's true, it's true...I must admit it. But it's just so darned easy.

Anyway, so today when I sat down to write this installment I decided to "showcase" some of our fellow countrymen north of the Mason Dixon line. So what did I do? Well, since today's installment is about bad acting in indie pro wrestling, I Googled "Bad acting indy pro wrestling new york".

And voila! My eyes were treated to the upcoming glory.

So I promise you -- I don't even know these guys. I've never heard of them, and this is not a shill attempt to get them over somehow.

Now hold on, hold on! Don't be clicking on the video just yet. You must abide by the following rules before you proceed:

1. Take everything in. Look all around the shot location and notice everything going on.
2. Keep in mind these are grown men -- not ten year olds -- doing this.
3. Note that at the time of this writing, the video has only 299 views...and it's like, almost a year old.
4. Resist your ADHD urge to stop watching halfway through. The real goodness is at the very end.

OK, without further ado, I proudly present to you, the _Peacock Express_!



Ca-CAW! Ca-CAW! Ca-CAW!

If you've been reading along with this series, you'll recall that in my last installment I briefly mentioned the phenomenon where you experience something in life and then a month later you're asking yourself, "Did I really see that or was it a dream?"

Well this is definitely one of those moments.

In fairness, this is quite possibly the best indie promo video I have ever watched. It's light years ahead of the typical promo where the wrestler is standing in front of some really weird background -- like a stained janitor closet door -- and then rambles on awkwardly, often pausing and stammering while trying to think of what to say next. All the while, he's nervously stepping back and forth, fidgeting with his hands, and his eyes are darting all over the place, like a kid being questioned by the police after he's been caught throwing eggs at the school building.

But now let's really think the Peacock video through. Consider this: Clearly these guys had a script. It's just too well delivered to be impromptu. That means they sat down and wrote it! Could you just imagine the brainstorming session involved to crank this script out? 

It would be like this: "OK, OK...what are we going to do in our next promo?" says Peacock #1.

Peacock #2 says, "I got it! We'll film up in my apartment complex's gym. We'll have to do it early in the morning when there's no one there." 

Then Peacock #1 says, "Yeah! Cool! And we can wear our cool Peacock sports blazers with the peacock beads hanging from the sleeves!" 

"Yeah, yeah! OK, OK, so what are we going to say?"

"I know! We'll talk about our upcoming match against the Fast and the Furious. And you'll get confused and think we're wrestling the actors from the real movie!"

"Man, you're a booking genius! Damn! How did you think of that?"

"I don't know, man...I guess I just have a gift. Holy crap! I just got another idea! We'll get my little brother to dress up in his high school's mascot costume and we'll have him working out behind us while we're cutting the promo!"

"Damn, man! You're blowing my brains! But wait -- that's an eagle costume, not a peacock."

"So?! This is wrestling, man! People who watch this don't know the difference between a peacock and an eagle."

And then how many times did they have to rehearse the promo to get it right? How many times did Peacock #1 forget one of his lines, so they'd have to rewind the tape and start over?

But in the end, you know what?

The video only has 299 views!

Fail!

And thus we arrive at the point. For all the stilted, over-the-top bad acting and silly tomfoolery, nobody's paying any attention. Let's think about this seriously. Who can watch the following and not be embarrassed to be watching it?




























Bottom line: Silly bad acting and phony overselling do not draw. The average person with at least an average IQ looks at it and says, "Good God. That's so stupid." If you want a chance at turning this around, drop the silliness and buy a good book on acting.

And then, you know, _read_ it.


----------



## Ham and Egger

That peacock promo was amazing. I laughed A LOT!


----------



## seabs

*Not entirely sure what your point was but that promo was awesome and actually made me want to see more of them. Scripted or not it was one of the best promos I've seen in ages.*


----------



## MillionDollarProns

This is a good thread. 

Also most fat people aren't Dusty Rhodes. If every fat person was Dusty Rhodes life would be so much better


----------



## charliebrown

So your saying that bad acting turns people away, and you said these guys were bad actors......but they were good. Who cares if they are scripted.I wanted to see more of them. 
You said they were bad, but the were good....and said we wouldn't want to see it, but i enjoyed it...
FUCK LOGIC!


----------



## WutChagoNAdoBrothA

that promo was excellent IMO

sure their gimmick is a little silly and stupid but they owned their characters and that promo


----------



## septurum

Every Indie show I've ever been to was out of state. I live in the NW, which literally has nothing worthwhile.


----------



## USAUSA1

Yeah, that promo was way better than I expected. I'm not even a fan of comedy wrestling but even I have to admit that was a great promo. Plus, it was was shot with a good camera. 

They also a tag team, which means they not the main attraction to their shows.


----------



## KaijuFan

That promo was awesome, the eagle lifting weights in the background must be getting ready for Dragon Dragon. 

Also, a tag team CAN be the main attraction to a show. See WGTT in ROH.


----------



## FITZ

That promo makes me more likely to see that show if it was taking place near me.


----------



## USAUSA1

KaijuFan said:


> That promo was awesome, the eagle lifting weights in the background must be getting ready for Dragon Dragon.
> 
> Also, a tag team CAN be the main attraction to a show. See WGTT in ROH.


Really and how's that working out for them? And from what I seen, Davey Richards is the main attraction. 

I love tag team wrestling but I can't remember a time where a tag team was the main attraction for a span of a year for any company. Stables? Yes but not a tag team. One or two shows, sure but when I say main attraction am talking about them main eventing most of the shows throughout a long time period. And I don't consider the Mega Powers a tag team,that was more like the top two babyfaces working against the top two heels.


----------



## RawIsWar1991

Awesome posts. I agree with everything that's been said.


----------



## chris2038

Once again, I see many going out of their way to NOT understand the underlying message of his post.

If you look at the Indy’s, or wrestling in general... every single promo contains over-the-top garbage that the casual fan/general public would find ridiculously stupid and flat-out dull. These promos may be fun to watch for us, but we can't ignore the fact that these types of segments further solidify pro wrestling's poor public image. As society grows smarter (the 70s and 80's blue collar stereotype ISN'T mass market anymore), these promos only serve to weaken any chance of the industry becoming prosperous again. Why? Because a larger, mass market fan base will not give garbage like this the time of day. This material is not what the average sensible viewer is drawn towards. 

Well, according to wrestling's status quo, those guys have done a great job cutting that promo. Unfortunately, the status quo is simply not in the industry's best interests to keep feeding into. These guys are doing what they need to in order to get recognized by the fed. They want a contract. They, and the rest of ESW, are probably reluctant to try anything different. It's what their current niche and the diminishing world of wrestling expects. 

But 294 views??? which professional could be satisfied with producing a youtube video that draws a whopping 249 views? Much like who could be satisfied drawing less than 400 paid fans per show?

Challenge the status quo. Do something that the general public would accept and embrace rather than something they would scorn at and ridicule. So promoters... worst case scenario? You potentially alienate all 50 fans of your little niche market, close up shop, stop losing money, move on, and begin doing something productive with your lives.


----------



## charliebrown

chris2038 said:


> Once again, I see many going out of their way to NOT understand the underlying message of his post.
> 
> If you look at the Indy’s, or wrestling in general... every single promo contains over-the-top garbage that the casual fan/general public would find ridiculously stupid and flat-out dull. These promos may be fun to watch for us, but we can't ignore the fact that these types of segments further solidify pro wrestling's poor public image. As society grows smarter (the 70s and 80's blue collar stereotype ISN'T mass market anymore), these promos only serve to weaken any chance of the industry becoming prosperous again. Why? Because a larger, mass market fan base will not give garbage like this the time of day. This material is not what the average sensible viewer is drawn towards.
> 
> Well, according to wrestling's status quo, those guys have done a great job cutting that promo. Unfortunately, the status quo is simply not in the industry's best interests to keep feeding into. These guys are doing what they need to in order to get recognized by the fed. They want a contract. They, and the rest of ESW, are probably reluctant to try anything different. It's what their current niche and the diminishing world of wrestling expects.
> 
> But 294 views??? which professional could be satisfied with producing a youtube video that draws a whopping 249 views? Much like who could be satisfied drawing less than 400 paid fans per show?
> 
> Challenge the status quo. Do something that the general public would accept and embrace rather than something they would scorn at and ridicule. So promoters... worst case scenario? You potentially alienate all 50 fans of your little niche market, close up shop, stop losing money, move on, and begin doing something productive with your lives.


This is challenging the status quo. And its a good thing. My mom thought it was hilarious, and she hates wrestling, and even asked if they were ever coming to town.I dont see how this is bad for the industry.Natalya farting is bad for the industry. Besides,How many times do you see a funny promo....not often.... How many times do you see a guy just stare, and say something along the lines of "I will make you pay." 90% of the time.
And 250 views is DAMN good. I read somewhere that 78% of videos on the internet have LESS that 100 views, so they are doing pretty well. I've been to a few shows that only drew 150. At 15x150=2250. If you do 24 shows a year, you get $54k. Thats not bad. You will have expenses, so, you may have a day job, but you could make some decent money on the side.They probably use youtube to reach a new audience, and they are doing a great job at it.


----------



## stryker360

charliebrown said:


> This is challenging the status quo. And its a good thing. My mom thought it was hilarious, and she hates wrestling, and even asked if they were ever coming to town.I dont see how this is bad for the industry.Natalya farting is bad for the industry. Besides,How many times do you see a funny promo....not often.... How many times do you see a guy just stare, and say something along the lines of "I will make you pay." 90% of the time.
> And 250 views is DAMN good. I read somewhere that 78% of videos on the internet have LESS that 100 views, so they are doing pretty well. I've been to a few shows that only drew 150. At 15x150=2250. If you do 24 shows a year, you get $54k. Thats not bad. You will have expenses, so, you may have a day job, but you could make some decent money on the side.They probably use youtube to reach a new audience, and they are doing a great job at it.


love your outlook on the situation


----------



## charliebrown

stryker360 said:


> love your outlook on the situation


Thanks. Glad to see someone agrees.


----------



## JoseDRiveraTCR7

That promo was amazing. I showed it to my mother and sisters and they loved it, too.


----------



## smokinglizard

charliebrown said:


> And 250 views is DAMN good. I read somewhere that 78% of videos on the internet have LESS that 100 views, so they are doing pretty well.


No, 250 views is _awful_. Awful! 78% of videos on the Internet have less than 100 views because they are complete garbage. Comparing yourself to that is a lot like comparing yourself to people in the meth-ridden trailer park and concluding you're rich.



> I've been to a few shows that only drew 150. At 15x150=2250. If you do 24 shows a year, you get $54k. Thats not bad. You will have expenses, so, you may have a day job, but you could make some decent money on the side.They probably use youtube to reach a new audience, and they are doing a great job at it.


Meaning no disrespect, and I don't want to sound argumentative, but it's fairly evident you've never promoted wrestling shows. I have some experience in that regard, so let me throw some numbers at you. You mention expenses but you haven't taken a full inventory of them.

First you need to rent a suitable venue. Of course it depends on the size and location of the venue, but that's going to run you around $500.

Then you need to pay the wrestlers. If you pay each guy $50 and you have 20 guys on the card, that's $1,000.

Then you need to buy event insurance. Almost all venues require this or they won't rent to you. That's going to be about another $500.

That's $2,000 right there.

Now, if you don't own a ring, you have to rent one. That's going to run you another $300.

Now you're in the red, and you haven't taken into consideration a promoter's license (in those states that require one), advertising, ring security, an EMT (some states require one), gas, a PA system, or any other incidentals like chair rental in facilities that charge for them.

In the end, from the gate you describe, you will _lose_ serious money.

The general rule of thumb is, to say that you're _making_ money, you have to be drawing 400 - 500 paying customers regulary.



*Here it is, folks -- part 15 of the 50 part series entitled, "The Top 50 Reasons Why Wrestling Fans Don't Go to Indie Shows."*

Reason #36: Busted up rings.

Well, I'm about to break my own rule twice in a row -- I'm going to ask you to watch a video.

In the last installment I urged you to watch the promo video for the incomparable Peacock Express, and if you haven't viewed that video yet, what are you waiting for? You just don't know what you're missing! Get on it! Ca-CAW! Ca-CAW! Ca-CAW!

Do peacocks even make the "ca-caw" sound? I thought that was crows. But then what do I know?

Anyway, today I have another great video, which is why I'm breaking my own rule again. This one is also a shocker.

In all seriousness, today's video is not funny. Not at all. But it illustrates the essential point of this installment much better than my words ever could.

Check it out:






If the wrestler in the video looks familiar to you, he should, as he's the highly talented indie wrestler Colby Godwin, the same phenom who graces the cover of my book, *FIXING THE INDIES*.

When I first watched the video I suspected that the turnbuckle had broken, as low quality Made in China turnbuckles are on the market these days, and they're not uncommon. You can pick them up at any discount hardware store -- and end up killing your workers in the process. Although I don't know -- is there anything _not_ made in China these days?

Anyway, that's not what happened in this case. The turnbuckle didn't break. In this case, the metal ring that the turnbuckle hooks onto broke loose from the ring post. Evidently the weld that fastened the ring to the post wasn't strong enough and finally gave way. Colby was very lucky he didn't land on his head and crack his skull open or break his neck.

This reminds me of another story from my own experience. I was in a match against a guy I had worked many times, and we were working a very simple spot that called for me, the babyface, to lay in the middle of the ring "playing possum." Meanwhile, the heel was going to try to hit me with a flying double axe handle from the middle rope. I, of course, was to roll out of the way, he'd hit the mat and sell as if he hurt his stomach, and I'd mount my comeback.

Simple enough, right? Seen it eight zillion times, right?

OK, before I continue with the story, allow me to explain something. Today's wrestlers who work for better promotions have it so much better than guys like me did back in the 80s and early 90s. See, today's pro wrestling rings use the awesome "flexibeam" construction method. That is, the ring is held up by highly flexible steel beams underneath the decking. The beams bend and bounce back, like a truck spring. This makes for an extremely soft and safe bumping experience. Here's an example of a modern flexibeam ring:










I wasn't so lucky. Most of the rings I wrestled in were old school _wooden_ rings where the cross supports were long 2x8 boards, and the whole thing rested on a heavy compression spring on the floor underneath the deck. Comparatively speaking, bumping on a flexibeam ring, to me, is like taking a bump on a trampoline when you compare it to bumping on those old wooden rings.

And there's another downside to wooden rings -- they have a nasty tendency to break.

Such was the case in the match I was describing. The ring we were wrestling in was a cheap homemade job, constructed of cheap wood and thin particle boards. And the padding? Ordinarily rings have high quality compressed foam under the canvas to absorb the shock of all the bumps. This ring? Old carpet. Yes, carpet. Not carpet pad -- carpet.

So when we were doing this match, my opponent did his thing and jumped from the second rope. But when he landed...CRACK! One of the long 2x8 wooden supports snapped in two and the thin particle board of the decking crunched and folded in the middle. Imagine a guy belly flopping through a folding table, only supersized.

Now understand my opponent wasn't a huge guy. He wasn't small by any stretch -- I'd say he had the size and build of Arn Anderson -- but he wasn't some super heavyweight like Vader crashing down on the ring.

Needless to say, the match was over. The show was over. It was all over. After all, what can you do? You have a huge crater right in the middle of your ring.

So we went back to the locker room, where my opponent was immediately met by the promoter, who was very, very angry.

"You effing son of a bitch!" he yelled. "You broke my ring!"

My opponent started to apologize, but I jumped in instead. "No!" I shot back. "Your cheap effing ring broke!"

Needless to say, that guy never called me back to work any more of his shows.

Bottom line: If you're a wrestling promoter, you have a responsibility to the guys who work for you. They trust that the ring you put them in is going to be safe. If you can't afford a properly constructed ring for your shows, you have no business running them.


----------



## FITZ

That video was scary. The turnbuckle went flying and the metal rod was attached. That could have done some serious damage, especially if the ref was standing in a different spot then where he was. 

I've been at a show where the ring broke and it creates all sorts of chaos. Two huge wrestlers broke it right before the main event and there was basically no ring for the main event. Luckily the show was able to go on as the guys in the main event where veterans and had the matched changed to a No DQ match and had this really fun brawl all over the place. I talked to one of the guys in the match at a later show and he told me that they had to do the whole thing on the fly as the ring broke minutes before they were set to go on. 

A ring breaking is just embarrassing. Thankfully they got a new ring that won't break (I think it's the bendable metal but I could be wrong) as easily but they still made themselves look really bad in front of all the fans they had there.


----------



## ROH AmericanDragon

I worked in pro wrestling for a while and I'd work with a couple of different rings. Luckily I've never been in the ring when it broke but I know that no matter how expensive your ring is everything eventually breaks. Of course if you have a cheap piece of shit ring well then it's very likely it will break on you. 

Even WWE has their ropes break on occasion, it doesn't mean its cheap or poorly taken care of. I remember one time at ROH the side rail that goes into the post broke where it was welded. I had been setting up that ring for probally 2 years by that point. I was working for a local promotion and when we were taking the ring apart the exact same thing had happened. The ring needed to be repaired and the promoters took care of it right away. 

Now of course rings need proper maintenance but there are some things that you can't always plan for. If I were to do my own promotion one day I would most certainly not skimp on my ring, that is the most important aspect of your show. You need it to look the very best and be incredibly safe for your performers.


----------



## KOKitten

This has been an interesting thread – both the reasons and the comments in favor of/against each of them.

I look forward to reading the rest of the series.


----------



## chris2038

smokinglizard said:


> No, 250 views is _awful_. Awful! 78% of videos on the Internet have less than 100 views because they are complete garbage. Comparing yourself to that is a lot like comparing yourself to people in the meth-ridden trailer park and concluding you're rich.
> 
> 
> 
> Meaning no disrespect, and I don't want to sound argumentative, but it's fairly evident you've never promoted wrestling shows. I have some experience in that regard, so let me throw some numbers at you. You mention expenses but you haven't taken a full inventory of them.
> 
> First you need to rent a suitable venue. Of course it depends on the size and location of the venue, but that's going to run you around $500.
> 
> Then you need to pay the wrestlers. If you pay each guy $50 and you have 20 guys on the card, that's $1,000.
> 
> Then you need to buy event insurance. Almost all venues require this or they won't rent to you. That's going to be about another $500.
> 
> That's $2,000 right there.
> 
> Now, if you don't own a ring, you have to rent one. That's going to run you another $300.
> 
> Now you're in the red, and you haven't taken into consideration a promoter's license (in those states that require one), advertising, ring security, an EMT (some states require one), gas, a PA system, or any other incidentals like chair rental in facilities that charge for them.
> 
> In the end, from the gate you describe, you will _lose_ serious money.
> 
> The general rule of thumb is, to say that you're _making_ money, you have to be drawing 400 - 500 paying customers regulary.


Agreed. I didn't bother responding to the "294 views is acceptable" point for obvious reasons. Although, that poster's rationale for sticking up for the quality of the promo is somewhat warranted. However, having been in the business, for every one potential fan that would find that promo funny or "entertaining", there are 10-15 that would click X within the first 20 seconds. Just speaking from experience. It was very hard to sell new fans on coming to shows by showing them crap like that. 

As for the latest post, I couldn't agree more. I like how many of your posts so far focus on the promoters (and bookers) being at fault for the industry's shortcomings. The power rests with them on presenting the entire front-end of the business to the fans. They choose who to book/who not to book, where to run, when to run, etc. Promoters have the ability to "set the tone at the top" in the sense that they influence workers and fans in more ways than one. 

I'll attempt to illustrate here - if a promoter does a half-ass job with the ring, the set-up, the venue, and the promotional work, what kind of influence/message does that send to the workers breaking in to the business? Chances are they are going to start thinking its okay to do half-ass jobs themselves. They'll think it’s okay to do any of the following: stop/skip training, start looking like a fat tub of shit, walk out in jeans instead of proper ring gear, start prostituting themselves for free, and most importantly, stop listening to REAL veterans who are there to guide them. The business' standards will then drop to the point where regular ticket buyers will start to believe they'll have what it takes to become a wrestler. This will only serve to diminish what pro wrestling is supposed to stand for - a larger than life spectacle of entertainment.


----------



## charliebrown

smokinglizard said:


> No, 250 views is _awful_. Awful! 78% of videos on the Internet have less than 100 views because they are complete garbage. Comparing yourself to that is a lot like comparing yourself to people in the meth-ridden trailer park and concluding you're rich.
> 
> 
> 
> Meaning no disrespect, and I don't want to sound argumentative, but it's fairly evident you've never promoted wrestling shows. I have some experience in that regard, so let me throw some numbers at you. You mention expenses but you haven't taken a full inventory of them.
> 
> First you need to rent a suitable venue. Of course it depends on the size and location of the venue, but that's going to run you around $500.
> 
> Then you need to pay the wrestlers. If you pay each guy $50 and you have 20 guys on the card, that's $1,000.
> 
> Then you need to buy event insurance. Almost all venues require this or they won't rent to you. That's going to be about another $500.
> 
> That's $2,000 right there.
> 
> Now, if you don't own a ring, you have to rent one. That's going to run you another $300.
> 
> Now you're in the red, and you haven't taken into consideration a promoter's license (in those states that require one), advertising, ring security, an EMT (some states require one), gas, a PA system, or any other incidentals like chair rental in facilities that charge for them.
> 
> In the end, from the gate you describe, you will _lose_ serious money.
> 
> The general rule of thumb is, to say that you're _making_ money, you have to be drawing 400 - 500 paying customers regulary.












First off, you idea on videos and trailer parks is ridiculous....
Now, I never have been a promoter, but I can say this,I did mention expenses in my previous post.I have never seen 20 people on a card.... Most ever was 11.... That cuts pay by 50%-meaning Profit. You also have merchandise and food sales-- so I think 150 is fine. Would you like to draw more? Yes, but I think its ok.


----------



## wee bru

This is a really weird thread. I think i just can't relate because i'm from Scotland. Despite being a tiny country we have 7 wrestling promotions and i live within an hour and a half of 4 training schools. I've been to over 200 events in the past 10 years i have never seen any of the things you are describing.


----------



## smokinglizard

charliebrown said:


> First off, you idea on videos and trailer parks is ridiculous....
> Now, I never have been a promoter, but I can say this,I did mention expenses in my previous post.I have never seen 20 people on a card.... Most ever was 11.... That cuts pay by 50%-meaning Profit. You also have merchandise and food sales-- so I think 150 is fine. Would you like to draw more? Yes, but I think its ok.


Well thanks for reading along and commenting. You do realize I have 20+ years of experience in the indie wrestling business and know a bit about it, right?

And you have...none?



> I have never seen 20 people on a card...


Really? Then you must not go to many indie shows. Take a gander at this flyer I found at random by Googling "new york pro wrestling":










But thanks for joining the conversation. This thread is fun!

P.S. Have you checked out my book yet?


----------



## richyque

charliebrown said:


> So your saying that bad acting turns people away, and you said these guys were bad actors......but they were good. Who cares if they are scripted.I wanted to see more of them.
> You said they were bad, but the were good....and said we wouldn't want to see it, but i enjoyed it...
> FUCK LOGIC!


Man im a new fan of the peacock express i also want to see more of them.


----------



## Berringer

smokinglizard said:


> Well thanks for reading along and commenting. You do realize I have 20+ years of experience in the indie wrestling business and know a bit about it, right?
> 
> And you have...none?


 

There's a timeworn phrase here that I honestly feel applies: Those who can't do, teach.

To be fair, I do agree with you on a few of the points you've made in this thread; but the general feeling I have from reading each and every one of your posts is stated in my first sentence. I can't shake this funny feeling that if I met you at a writer's convention - after hearing you talk - I'd feel like "Fixing the Indies" was nothing more than a cheap attempt at a cash-in from a bitter ex-performer/promoter/whatever. That's not the best image to convey when you're trying to sell something you've crafted (and that's not me trying to be an ass - that's just some constructive criticism from a fellow writer).


----------



## THECHAMPION

11 people on a card?

That's 5 matches max with no one wrestling twice.

That just doesn't happen.


----------



## wee bru

Berringer said:


> There's a timeworn phrase here that I honestly feel applies: Those who can't do, teach.
> 
> To be fair, I do agree with you on a few of the points you've made in this thread; but the general feeling I have from reading each and every one of your posts is stated in my first sentence. I can't shake this funny feeling that if I met you at a writer's convention - after hearing you talk - I'd feel like "Fixing the Indies" was nothing more than a cheap attempt at a cash-in from a bitter ex-performer/promoter/whatever. That's not the best image to convey when you're trying to sell something you've crafted (and that's not me trying to be an ass - that's just some constructive criticism from a fellow writer).


I agree with you. I've read a number of books from promoters about improving the business. The last one i read was Alex Shane's guide to pro wrestling (Alex Shane being a top uk talent and promoter). He speaks warmly about the business and has several ideas for improving the product and helping talent put together better matches and promotions. It is instructive and educating, and he puts forward a few good ideas (some of his individual chapters can be found here http://britishwrestlingcouncil.com/articles.html). 

But your book, based on these posts, doesn't seem like it would offer any real constructive ideas. It just seems to be you bashing a number of your pet peeves. I don't think that removing gaffer tape will cause any real increase in business. In fact, most of your comments so far could go in one post that says "keep up the appearance of professionalism". It just strikes me as more fault finding than improving.

Having read the sample and the table of contents on your web page, i'm not really filled with hope. The sample is fine, it's a bit long winded in regards to 'the dream', but you don't really seem to lay out your plans. I may actually have to get your book now to see what the rest of it is like. But anyway, i'm being very critical here. Kudos to you on writing a book. Is it self published?


----------



## wee bru

THECHAMPION said:


> 11 people on a card?
> 
> That's 5 matches max with no one wrestling twice.
> 
> That just doesn't happen.


Again, i'm from Scotland, things might be different here. The majority of our shows are attached to a training school. Our cards will generally have about 6-7 bouts and about 18-20 people on them, made up of trainees and a couple of bigger UK stars at the top of the card. Pay isn't something that is expected for the majority of people on the card. Some cards will have a lot more people if we do a battle royale (SWA just had one that included most of its trainees). But as they are paying for their training and do the shows to gain experience, they are effectively paying to appear on the card.


----------



## charliebrown

Berringer said:


> There's a timeworn phrase here that I honestly feel applies: Those who can't do, teach.
> 
> To be fair, I do agree with you on a few of the points you've made in this thread; but the general feeling I have from reading each and every one of your posts is stated in my first sentence. I can't shake this funny feeling that if I met you at a writer's convention - after hearing you talk - I'd feel like "Fixing the Indies" was nothing more than a cheap attempt at a cash-in from a bitter ex-performer/promoter/whatever. That's not the best image to convey when you're trying to sell something you've crafted (and that's not me trying to be an ass - that's just some constructive criticism from a fellow writer).












Smoking Lizard, if you are such a good promoter, why aren't you doing it now?


----------



## chris2038

These posts aren't included, or have much to do with his book. So passing judgment on his book based on his posts here in this thread isn't fair nor accurate.

As for the last comment re: why doesn't he promote shows....

Honestly, take a look at the inherent risk of the business. FYI, Inherent risk means the risk of failure no matter how good one's product may be. Take a look at how many towns/territories have been burnt to a crisp from the over-saturation of mediocre shows. It's gotten to the point where casual mass market fans will not give indy shows any kind of chance, no matter how high the calibre one's show may appear to be. Fans and sponsors are either sick of wrestling, or are reluctant to give it another shot from past disappointments. 

Thats how it is now. Rewind back to the mid 2000s. There was this outstanding product called UWA in ontario that hosted top-notch shows from 2004-2008. They closed up shop after their draws were going to hell. Why? because southern ontario's indy wrestling scene became over-saturated with garbage (from other half-assed promotions) to the point of complete exhaustion. Fans became confused, sick, and tired of wrestling shows on every single street corner. Indy wrestling's image - good promotions, mediocre promotions, terrible promotions... all suffered greatly. 

Now, which business-savvy investor would be motivated to invest in such a dying breed? It's going to take a collaborative effort from promoters EVERYWHERE to raise the bar to a high enough standard. Indy wrestling's image first needs to become prosperous again before any decent promoter in their right mind considers opening up shop.


----------



## FITZ

Some serious hating going on in the last few posts. I mean just because he doesn't promote anymore doesn't mean he was a terrible promoter. Hey Paul Heyman isn't involved in Creative for wrestling anymore and nobody will say it's because he sucks at it. People just have other interests and running a wrestling company is a pretty big commitment. I give him credit for trying to find a different way to make money involving wrestling. 

Also he's said a few times that his book isn't like this thread at all. He talks about ways you can get people to your show and ways to run a successful promotion. This thread is just all the shitty things that promoters and wrestlers do that turns people off indy wrestling. And I've agreed with most of them and the ones that I didn't agree at least made me look at things from another perspective.


----------



## USAUSA1

Plus, it takes money to start and run a company. This guy might not have money to start up a promotion. I would start one if I was rich. 

There's no real big money in wrestling. New Japan was just sold for like $6 million. That's a lot to you and me but in reality that's not a lot. And New Japan is the only company not name WWE that can at least draw over 25,000 fans to a show. This year Tokyo show drew 43,000. If they only worth 6 million, how much an indy promotion in the US can be worth? Expect to lose money.


----------



## wee bru

USAUSA1 said:


> Plus, it takes money to start and run a company. This guy might not have money to start up a promotion. I would start one if I was rich.
> 
> There's no real big money in wrestling. New Japan was just sold for like $6 million. That's a lot to you and me but in reality that's not a lot. And New Japan is the only company not name WWE that can at least draw over 25,000 fans to a show. This year Tokyo show drew 43,000. If they only worth 6 million, how much an indy promotion in the US can be worth? Expect to lose money.


Just a small correction, the WrestleKingdom shows always exaggerate their attendance. This year they drew about 25,000 people, not the 43,000 they advertised. 

Most promoters make a small profit. The standard model over here is to offer training and have shows attached to them. The wrestlers in training will cover all positions in the running of the shows, usually for free. A lot of our venues we are also able to get for free or very cheap. You might pay some expenses if you are getting a wrestler in to face your champion, bit otherwise they are doing it for experience. If you can draw a small crowd, then you are laughing. 

I'm going to get the book i think. I'll give it a proper read and some feedback. the major difference i see when i see footage from indie shows in the US from our events is that we are very much young-child events. Indies in the states seem to be aimed far more at teenagers and adults. Would that be a fair comment?


----------



## USAUSA1

wee bru said:


> Just a small correction, the WrestleKingdom shows always exaggerate their attendance. This year they drew about 25,000 people, not the 43,000 they advertised.
> 
> Most promoters make a small profit. The standard model over here is to offer training and have shows attached to them. The wrestlers in training will cover all positions in the running of the shows, usually for free. A lot of our venues we are also able to get for free or very cheap. You might pay some expenses if you are getting a wrestler in to face your champion, bit otherwise they are doing it for experience. If you can draw a small crowd, then you are laughing.
> 
> I'm going to get the book i think. I'll give it a proper read and some feedback. the major difference i see when i see footage from indie shows in the US from our events is that we are very much young-child events. Indies in the states seem to be aimed far more at teenagers and adults. Would that be a fair comment?


Even so, no wrestling company besides WWE and New Japan can draw over 25,000. Not even CMLL and AAA.

Is the small profit worth all the time and effort? Probably not


----------



## wee bru

USAUSA1 said:


> Even so, no wrestling company besides WWE and New Japan can draw over 25,000. Not even CMLL and AAA.
> 
> Is the small profit worth all the time and effort? Probably not


But that is just a blueprint. If someone comes along and thinks outside of the box, maybe they can change things. Everything is just a bit stale just now. A good, new idea could change that. That is clearly what the OP believes. 

What if you can find the next big casual draw? Or if you can get noticed in the local press? You start to build up an audience in a small area, who knows what could happen? 

You wouldn't need to draw a huge crowd to make a decent amount of money. Go back to the OP's figures. Imagine if you could draw even a few hundred people to each event. Back in the day, the territories all made good money and paid their wrestlers fairly well. 

In Europe, one of the more interesting ideas is having a European Champion, who will tour between affiliated companies in Europe, operating like the old NWA. I'm sure something similar could work between promoters in the USA too, adding legitimacy.

Finally, as something of an apology to the OP, i do agree with all the points he has made so far. They do all make sense.


----------



## FITZ

wee bru said:


> But that is just a blueprint. If someone comes along and thinks outside of the box, maybe they can change things. Everything is just a bit stale just now. A good, new idea could change that. That is clearly what the OP believes.
> 
> What if you can find the next big casual draw? Or if you can get noticed in the local press? You start to build up an audience in a small area, who knows what could happen?
> 
> You wouldn't need to draw a huge crowd to make a decent amount of money. Go back to the OP's figures. Imagine if you could draw even a few hundred people to each event. Back in the day, the territories all made good money and paid their wrestlers fairly well.
> 
> In Europe, one of the more interesting ideas is having a European Champion, who will tour between affiliated companies in Europe, operating like the old NWA. *I'm sure something similar could work between promoters in the USA too, adding legitimacy*.
> 
> Finally, as something of an apology to the OP, i do agree with all the points he has made so far. They do all make sense.


The NWA still does this today in the United States.


----------



## Spike

OP seems to be getting far more stick than he deserves here. I'd just like to say that this is a really fun thread, in between people being pointlessly harsh.


----------



## USAUSA1

TaylorFitz said:


> The NWA still does this today in the United States.


Yup and NWA Hollywood is of course the main promotion. Dave Marquez is very underrated as a promoter and am surprise WWE or TNA hasn't snatch him up yet.


----------



## smokinglizard

Wow! Quite a lot going on here since the last installment! And you know what? This thread has hit an awesome milestone -- it now officially has over 10,000 views. And we're not even halfway done yet! Thanks, everyone, for tuning in. Please don't go anywhere; the best is still yet to come.

Let's reply to some comments:



Berringer said:


> There's a timeworn phrase here that I honestly feel applies: Those who can't do, teach.
> 
> To be fair, I do agree with you on a few of the points you've made in this thread; but the general feeling I have from reading each and every one of your posts is stated in my first sentence. I can't shake this funny feeling that if I met you at a writer's convention - after hearing you talk - I'd feel like "Fixing the Indies" was nothing more than a cheap attempt at a cash-in from a bitter ex-performer/promoter/whatever. That's not the best image to convey when you're trying to sell something you've crafted (and that's not me trying to be an ass - that's just some constructive criticism from a fellow writer).


First off, Berringer, thanks for reading along and posting. This is an interesting comment you made. I can tell straight off the bat that you're both intelligent and a good writer. Of course, good writing and high intelligence typically go hand-in-hand.

See my responses to your thoughts below.



Berringer said:


> There's a timeworn phrase here that I honestly feel applies: Those who can't do, teach.


I answer your timeworn adage with one of my own: Even Beethoven had his critics.

I'm not comparing myself to Beethoven, of course, but my point is, no matter what you attempt in life -- write a book, start a wrestling promotion, record an album, open a business, or whatever -- there's going to be someone standing ready to jump on the opportunity criticize you. It just goes with the territory. You just gotta roll with it. Otherwise no one would ever do anything, and what a dull world that would be.



> I can't shake this funny feeling that if I met you at a writer's convention - after hearing you talk - I'd feel like "Fixing the Indies" was nothing more than a cheap attempt at a cash-in from a bitter ex-performer/promoter/whatever. That's not the best image to convey when you're trying to sell something you've crafted (and that's not me trying to be an ass - that's just some constructive criticism from a fellow writer).


Well, now, I have to ask you, are you _really_ being fair here? I'm actually not quite sure what you're trying to say, as you and I have _not_ ever met at writers' convention (or anywhere else), and we've never talked. So...you're basing your judgment of me on this thread?

On a message board?

You are keeping in mind that the thread is supposed to be funny, right? You know -- all in good fun? The humor is intended to keep folks interested and hopefully give them a laugh or two. 

Come on, now...do I really have to explain this?

I would like to point out to you that writing for publication is supposed to be a fraternity. It's ordinarily much better to congratulate and support a fellow writer for his accomplishments rather than dump on him.



wee bru said:


> But your book, based on these posts, doesn't seem like it would offer any real constructive ideas...


Wait. Hold the phone. Perhaps you're joining the party late and you missed it the first time I stressed this point: This thread is _not_ my book! This thread is just supposed to be for fun...by, you know, being funny. Again, please don't judge the book by this silly thread. Here, check the book out on Amazon and click on LOOK INSIDE to get a random sampling of the content: _Fixing the Indies on Amazon._



charliebrown said:


> Smoking Lizard, if you are such a good promoter, why aren't you doing it now?


Again, I've already answered this question earlier in this post. See:



> Sure! I wrestled under the name Ricky Vaughn back in the late 80s/early 90s.
> 
> Promoted and co-promoted two promotions in Colorado during the same timeframe. Unfortunately I don't have as much time to promote shows as I used to, as I have a full-time career as the chief of a software engineering division. That said, though, here's a link to my most recent wrestling project:
> 
> http://www.freefighting.tv
> 
> We did this as a screener for a major cable network for a proposed TV concept. Former FCW/WWE worker Brian Cage worked with me on this project.
> 
> Check it out!





TaylorFitz said:


> I give him credit for trying to find a different way to make money involving wrestling.


Correct! See above, but it's still fun to work on some wrestling-related projects here and there.



> Also he's said a few times that his book isn't like this thread at all. He talks about ways you can get people to your show and ways to run a successful promotion. This thread is just all the shitty things that promoters and wrestlers do that turns people off indy wrestling. And I've agreed with most of them and the ones that I didn't agree at least made me look at things from another perspective.


Also correct! Thank you, Taylor, for paying attention.



wee bru said:


> Finally, as something of an apology to the OP, i do agree with all the points he has made so far. They do all make sense.


Thank you! But no apology necessary. All comments -- positive, negative, and the ones in between -- keep the conversation going. Thanks for reading and posting.

Now on with the show!

*This is part 16 of the 50 part series entitled, "The Top 50 Reasons Why Wrestling Fans Don't Go to Indie Shows."*

Reason #35: Title belt hot potato.

About ten years ago, my niece "graduated" from elementary school. That is, she finished the fifth grade and was ready to move on to middle school. Honestly I did not know there was such a thing as a "graduation" for completing the fifth grade, but my wife informed me that there was and I was instructed that I would attend.

As if holding a "graduation" for ten-year-old children wasn't bad enough, the administration of this particular public elementary school did something entirely unfathomable -- they gave out awards.

To every...single...kid!

Yes, you read that right -- every single child in this 100+ member graduating fifth grade class received a shiny little trophy. Here's how it worked. The kids who were exceptional -- you know, the ones who _deserved_ an award -- got their trophy and the little plaque on it said whatever it was they accomplished, like "Honor Roll" or "Perfect Attendance." The other kids, the ones who did nothing, received an exact identical trophy. The only difference was that their plaque had the nebulous phrase, "Life Skills" etched onto it. So they won an award for developing their "life skills" by attending school, something state law requires them to do.

Isn't this wonderful? This way, everyone's a winner! Self-esteem for everyone! After all, isn't that the way the world should be? 

Nevermind that this imbecilic, asinine mentality of rewarding people for doing the ordinary, doing what's just expected of them, completely cheapens the award associated with doing something extraordinary. You're failing to recognize the hard work and achievements of going above and beyond. In any game, if everyone wins, what's the point of playing?

And these numbskull people are teaching our children!

A lot of pro wrestling promotions are just like this. How, you ask? Simple -- they play hot potato with their championship belt. They bounce the title around from guy to guy with, I guess, the intention that "every guy should have his chance to shine."

Fail.

I remember a show I went to a few years back where this was taken to an off-the-charts extreme. I just have to relate this story to you, but it's not going to be easy, as it was so ridiculous and so utterly featherbrained, a) it will be hard for me to put into words and b) you probably aren't going to believe this really happened.

But I did. I like to think I have a creative imagination and all, but even I couldn't dream this all up.

It went like this. The show opened and out comes the promotion's flavor-of-the-month top heel with the promotion's belt slung over his shoulder. At this point, the angle has developed that the heel won the title at last month's show by cheating, and the promotion's "commissioner" is unhappy about it. OK, got it so far? Good. Let's continue.

So the heel climbs into the ring, grabs the mic, and starts boasting about his "glorious" victory last month. All this braggadocio angers the babyface he beat, so the babyface comes out to confront him. Naturally, a shouting match and a bunch of very stilted pushing and shoving ensues. So the promotion's "commissioner" comes out to restore law and order. He grabs the mic and says to the heel, "Well, now, Tex, we all know how you came by that title last month. Unfortunately there's nothing I can do about that since the referee's decision is always final, but I'm here right now to tell you and all these good people that we're going to have a rematch! And it starts right _now_!

Ding! Ding! Ding!

The bell rings and suddenly, we're thrown into a title match...and it's the first match of the evening. The commissioner bails out of the ring, and the babyface flies into a wild attack. The heel, acting shocked and confused, desperately pretends to be on the defensive. Thirty seconds later, boom, the baby hits the heel with his finisher, and the referee makes the three count.

Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a new champion!

But it's not over yet! As the defeated heel rolls out of the ring holding his head and starts limping back to the curtain, some other random heel runs into the ring and decks the newly crowned babyface from behind as he's still holding up the title belt he just won. The new arrival hits our new champion with the Stone Cold Stunner, rolls him over, and covers him.

And then the referee makes the three count.

Now if you've been really reading this up to this point and your IQ is higher than, say, 70, you're probably wondering, "Wait. There was no match going on. That new guy just ran into the ring from the locker room. Why did the referee count a pinfall?"

Because, you see, that's what pro wrestling referees do. If one guy is on his back and another guy is on top of him, the referee counts a pinfall...no match required. In fact, if a wrestling champion is not careful, he can lose his title to his wife if she accidentally rolls over and puts her arm over his chest at night while they're sleeping. You probably didn't know this, but if that were to happen, a pro wrestling referee will magically appear in their bed to make the count. It's true.

Anyway, so forget all those trivial technicalities. I know, I know, I'm nitpicking. I'm such a nitpicker. Anyway, the bottom line is, we have yet another new champion.

But it's _still_ not over!

Heck the show is only ten minutes old at this point. There's three more damned hours of this still to come.

It's still not over because unbeknownst to our now third champion of the night, there was yet _another_ guy in the mix. This guy -- and I am not making this up -- was hiding under the ring.

Yes, under the ring. Hiding. So no one could see him.

So now you have to sit and ponder this for a moment. What was the guy doing under the ring all that time, taking a nap? Seriously, in the storyline, how do you explain the guy under the ring? Did he have some crystal ball that told him all of this was going to happen and that the referee was going to count pinfalls tonight regardless of whether an official match was going on or not? So he looked in his crystal ball and said, "Yeah...I'm going to hide under the ring and wait for my right moment to strike!"

Who knows? Point is, you know where this is going. This new babyface emerges from under the ring, jumps in, sucker punches the current heel champion (whose reign has lasted all of 90 seconds), covers him, and...damn, this referee should be making overtime pay.

So there you have it, folks -- four champions in one night! I really got my money's worth that show. And you know what's really, really sad? The booker or promoter or whoever cooked up that drivel probably actually thought exactly that -- that he was giving the fans their money's worth. More bang for their buck. More champions for their price of admission.

Let's get serious here. Pro wrestling is _supposed_ to be about storytelling. You're supposed to tell simple, engaging stories of conflict resolved by play fighting. Like an action movie. Like "Die Hard." The champion of your promotion is supposed to be the kingpin in the tale. He's supposed to be either the promotion's superhero or arch villain (preferably the latter). This communicates to the audience that this guy is the top dog. He's the big draw. He's the main event. He's supposed to be the guy who's so good, everyone wonders if anyone can beat him. He's next to invincible. You know, something like this:










This works especially well when your champion is a heel. If you can make your champion a super villain, one not easily dethroned, you can create awesome struggles where all your babies vie valliantly to take him down. It's the stuff great stories are made of. In the words of legendary filmmaker Alfred Hitchcock, "The more successful the villain, the more successful the picture."

Further, a championship match is supposed to be a big deal. It's supposed to be the Super Bowl of a promotion. Just as the NFL doesn't toss around the Lombardi trophy from one team to another every Sunday, a pro wrestling belt shouldn't be bandied about from guy to guy just to make them all happy or shut their whining up. It's a prop, for crying out loud. And the champion is just playing a role in a show. He's not a real champion. It's an act. Why, then, do so many indie wrestlers clamor to be the guy who carries out the prop?

Bottom line: A championship, in kayfabe, is supposed to be a big deal. It's supposed to have a mystique about it. It's supposed to be elusive and difficult to acquire. When you rotate it around from guy to guy "just because," you're effectively giving lazy kids trophies for just passing the class.


----------



## Berringer

smokinglizard said:


> Well, now, I have to ask you, are you _really_ being fair here? I'm actually not quite sure what you're trying to say, as you and I have _not_ ever met at writers' convention (or anywhere else), and we've never talked. So...you're basing your judgment of me on this thread?
> 
> On a message board?
> 
> You are keeping in mind that the thread is supposed to be funny, right? You know -- all in good fun? The humor is intended to keep folks interested and hopefully give them a laugh or two.
> 
> Come on, now...do I really have to explain this?


 
If you're trying to promote something you've accomplished, a good writer will always present himself as such no matter where he takes his writing. "All in good fun" or not, you've presented yourself horribly in this thread. I'm a big fan of independent wrestling and I admire the concept of your book...but after seeing your style and your sense of humor here, I really have no desire to spend money on your book. Your attitude in this thread is the antithesis of how a good writer would be promoting his work.





smokinglizard said:


> I would like to point out to you that writing for publication is supposed to be a fraternity. It's ordinarily much better to congratulate and support a fellow writer for his accomplishments rather than dump on him.


 
I've never bought into the "fraternity" ideal. Many writers cannot stand that form of empty narcissism; they find it degrading and would rather have honest critiquing from their fellow literary aspirers. I, myself, feel that the "fraternity" ideal is just a cover up response from someone who can't take - as I pointed out before - what amounts to constructive criticism. Surely, if you actually cared about your book, you'd want to know if you were presenting yourself poorly. From your statements however, I guess the contrary holds true. Good luck with your work.


----------



## FITZ

That title situation sounds like what me and my friends did when we did backyard wrestling. Everyone got to have the title. Not a great idea when it's an actual wrestling company. 

And that opening segment sounds hilarious if it had been for some other belt then the top title in the company. Well it still sounds hilarious but you can't be doing stuff like that. Title changes should feel like a big and at that point they clearly weren't important at all.


----------



## smokinglizard

Berringer said:


> Surely, if you actually cared about your book, you'd want to know if you were presenting yourself poorly.


Only from your perspective. With all due respect, who appointed you as the person who determines how best to present one's self? Especially considering you have an obscene animated GIF of a girl swinging her ass in your sig? I mean, really? Are you punking me? 

I respect your opinion, and I appreciate the feedback (really), but your opinion is only one. Others here have a sense of humor and "get it." Sorry you don't. Boring sober diatribes get no one's attention. To get over, you have to entertain. It's just common sense. Haven't you learned that lesson from watching wrestling?!?

Writing styles are different. It's writing for humor. Sorry it's not your style. But I do hope you continue reading along!


----------



## downgrader

Why fans don't go to indy shows:

Because most fans there look like piles of unmotivated shit.


----------



## Berringer

smokinglizard said:


> Only from your perspective. With all due respect, who appointed you as the person who determines how best to present one's self? Especially considering you have an obscene animated GIF of a girl swinging her ass in your sig? I mean, really? Are you punking me?


 

No, I'm not punking you. I'm also not on this website to _promote_ any of my writing either. I use this forum as my breather from regular writing. And while no one "appointed me" to determine how best to present one's self...it should be automatic knowledge (if you're actually taking your writing seriously). You can take that as my perspective, but the more writing you actually do and the more you involve yourself in the literary lifestyle...the more you'll find that it is a view shared by other writers.


----------



## jaw2929

I love how Berringer changed his avatar. LoL! 

Keep it up Smokinglizard, this is the most entertaining thread I've read on ANY forum in several years, honestly. Looking forward to more, man!


----------



## Berringer

jaw2929 said:


> I love how Berringer changed his avatar. LoL!


 
 When did I change my avatar? I've had the blue-and-purple psychedelic swirl since the day I joined here at WF.

EDIT: If you're referring to the "obscene animated GIF" smokinglizard referred to, it's still right there in my signature where it's been since December or so.


----------



## jaw2929

Berringer said:


> When did I change my avatar? I've had the blue-and-purple psychedelic swirl since the day I joined here at WF.
> 
> EDIT: If you're referring to the "obscene animated GIF" smokinglizard referred to, it's still right there in my signature where it's been since December or so.


Ya got me. I was thinking you change your avatar... Didn't realize it was in your sig, since I set my board permissions to not view anyone's sigs. They're annoying.


----------



## charliebrown

smokinglizard said:


> First off, Berringer, thanks for reading along and posting. This is an interesting comment you made. I can tell straight off the bat that you're both intelligent and a good writer. Of course, good writing and high intelligence typically go hand-in-hand.
> 
> See my responses to your thoughts below.
> 
> 
> 
> I answer your timeworn adage with one of my own: Even Beethoven had his critics.
> 
> I'm not comparing myself to Beethoven, of course, but my point is, no matter what you attempt in life -- write a book, start a wrestling promotion, record an album, open a business, or whatever -- there's going to be someone standing ready to jump on the opportunity criticize you. It just goes with the territory. You just gotta roll with it. Otherwise no one would ever do anything, and what a dull world that would be.


Notice, that he couldn't come up with a logical response, so he inserted some bs.


----------



## jaw2929

charliebrown said:


> Notice, that he couldn't come up with a logical response, so he inserted some bs.


What the fuck do you want him to say? How is that bullshit? He's right, there's always going to be someone being a critic to someone else's work at some point or another. If they let the haters stop them, then what's the fuckin' point in doing anything at all? 

Jesus fucking christ some of you just love to fucking troll & hate for no other reason than just to do it. It's fucking pathetic. How many books do YOU have published, charliebrown?


----------



## charliebrown

jaw2929 said:


> What the fuck do you want him to say? How is that bullshit? He's right, there's always going to be someone being a critic to someone else's work at some point or another. If they let the haters stop them, then what's the fuckin' point in doing anything at all?
> 
> Jesus fucking christ some of you just love to fucking troll & hate for no other reason than just to do it. It's fucking pathetic. How many books do YOU have published, charliebrown?


I haven't published a book. However, I used to love this thread. Then the author made ridiculous examples (comparing good acting to a meth ridden trailer park) because he cant debate. When ever someone comes up with an opinion other than his own, he tries to sound smart when, in actuality, he can't come up with something to say. So he changes th subject before people realize what is going on.


----------



## jaw2929

charliebrown said:


> I haven't published a book. However, I used to love this thread. Then the author made ridiculous examples (comparing good acting to a meth ridden trailer park) because he cant debate. When ever someone comes up with an opinion other than his own, he tries to sound smart when, in actuality, he can't come up with something to say. So he changes th subject before people realize what is going on.


So stop reading then? Nobody's forcing you to come into this thread. I realize he's changing the subject, because he probably doesn't wanna get into stupid/petty arguments online back & forth, thus negating the purpose of this topic.


----------



## chris2038

downgrader said:


> Why fans don't go to indy shows:
> 
> Because most fans there look like piles of unmotivated shit.


LOLLLLLLLLLLL GOLD. So true. Who the hell wants to associate with "that type".

In grade 10, I convinced a few buddies to attend an indy show with me. It was my first time so the anticipation was quite exciting. Upon arriving, we all felt seriously out of place with the abundance of, like you said, piles of unmotivated shit. 

After a couple hours of predictable and under stimulating WWE wannabe garbage, I asked myself how in the blue fuck these morons were eating up that god-awful shit. It was a horrible sight. I looked around and compared the setting (including the terrible in-ring product) to where a typical 16 year old kid _should_ be on a Saturday night. Yeah, no comparison. Not even close. 

As my dad arrived to pick us up with five long minutes left in the main, he took a brief look around the scene. He immediately tried to hide that disappointed look on his face when he realized his son was spending a Saturday night watching ridiculously shitty wrestling amongst 150 rejects. We left and never looked back.

Needless to say, it was a tough year trying to convince him that I was cool again. He probably still has his doubts, and I don’t blame him. 

Had to share that


----------



## wee bru

Sorry, removing this comment because it was too harsh. I was being a dick.


----------



## downgrader

What was it? It's probably more entertaining than 99% of internet postings.


----------



## smokinglizard

Here it is, part 17 of the 50 part series entitled, "The Top 50 Reasons Why Fans Don't Go to Indie Wrestling Shows."

Reason #34: Botches.

[SHILL ALERT ON]

Before we get started with this installment, though, I just wanted to let everyone know that my new book _Fixing the Indies_ is now also available on Barnes & Noble. That means the book is now available through the two largest book retailers in the world! Check it out: FIXING THE INDIES on Barnes & Noble.

[SHILL ALERT OFF]

Now back to our regularly scheduled forum post:

Pro wrestling is a choreographed sport, like figure skating or competitive dance. As such, sometimes everything doesn't go as planned. That just comes with the territory. In pro wrestling, whenever a spot goes wrong, it's called a _botch_.

Yes, you know that already, I'm sure. If you've been a wrestling fan for any length of time, surely you've seen your share of botches. If you haven't, you must have never stepped foot in a building hosting an indie pro wrestling show, because indie wrestling is jammed full of botches. It's a botch-tastic botchfest. It's not a matter of _if_ you'll witness a botch on a given night, it's how _many_ you'll see. Why is indie wrestling so botch-tacular? Because a) so many of the performers are improperly trained to do the moves correctly and b) because when a botch does occur -- as they inevitably will -- the performers aren't trained to cover them up.

Don't get me wrong -- big name greats like Ric Flair, Terry Funk, Ricky Steamboat, and Randy Savage all botched many a move in their days. But the difference between those guys and the guys who perform at your local YMCA is, the pros just know how to cover them up very, very well. So well, in fact, most fans -- barring the ones with a very good eye for the sport -- never even realize a botch even happened. In the indies, however, botches happen and they're plain as daylight.

Let me relate a story. I was in the locker room after just wrestling a match, untying my boots and ready to get on the road home. Ordinarily I would always stay until the end of every show and help break down the ring, but in this case I had driven over 100 miles to get to the show, and I had to work early the next morning, so I was eager to get going to hopefully get home at a decent hour. 

So there I was loosening the laces on my boots and happy that my work was done for the evening, when another worker came up behind me and said, "Oh, hey, Norm...main event's a battle royal."

Wind in sails...gone.

"Aw, schnap!" I exclaimed, only I didn't say "schnap." The booker, you see, hadn't told me ahead of time that there would be a battle royal to cap this show, so I wasn't going to get out early after all. I'd have to stay to work the stupid battle royal.

So out we come for the battle royal and on the way, this doughy, pudgy, pear-shaped wrestler wearing one of those old fashioned singlets without legs -- you know, like the one King Kong Bundy used to wear -- whispers to me, "How do I go over the top rope? I've never done it before."

For simplicity's sake, let's call this guy Larry.

Here's King Kong Bundy, by the way:










Taken a bit aback by Larry's odd question -- especially considering he was asking me right in front of the entire audience -- I cocked an eyebrow at him. But realizing he was serious and not wanting him to get hurt, I gave him a very quick primer on how to do it...right in front of the audience. The method I showed him was simple, really. I told him to go over it the way you would a fence -- grab the top rope with your right hand, bend over the top rope, grab the middle rope with your left hand, and then go over the rope and land gently on the floor. Remember all this, because it's going to be relevant in just a moment.

So the bell rings and all 20 of us start stumbling around the ring. I'm not particularly fond of battle royals, as they always go this way. There's just not enough room in the ring, so all you can do for the first three fourths of it is muddle about and punch people randomly. Nevertheless, we do our thing, and within a couple minutes, guys start getting eliminated.

Then, all of a sudden, with, like, 15 guys still in the ring, this one knucklehead decides it would be a great idea to dropkick our friend Larry out of the ring. So he goes to throw his dropkick, but since there are so many other guys all around him, moving and, you know, _wrestling_, he doesn't have adequate space to throw the dropkick and land safely. So as a result, he throws the most awful dropkick in the history of professional wrestling, which, I kid you not, misses Larry by at least three feet.

Three feet!

Imagine three feet. That's a yardstick. The guy's feet miss Larry by an empty space a yardstick could have fit into.

But then suddenly Larry realizes that the guy's dropkick was intended for _him_, so he panics and, in a woefully pitiful attempt to preserve kayfabe, decides to take a dive over the top rope anyway. But he doesn't use the technique I taught him. He doesn't even attempt it. Heck, he doesn't even grab the top rope! Instead, he squats down and attempts to _leap_ -- like a frog -- over the top rope. He looked like the cowardly lion when he dove through that window trying to escape from the Wizard of Oz's palace.

Problem is, Larry was no athlete and carried most of his pudgy bodyweight in his Weeble-shaped lower quarters. Thus his vertical leap was all of, oh, two inches, and he was thus unable to generate anywhere near enough momentum to clear the rope. Instead, he landed on top of the rope and then just...hung there.

Stuck. He had landed perfectly balanced on his stomach on that top rope. Precipitously teetering to and fro, like a car stuck on the edge of a cliff. Realizing his predicament, Larry panicked even more and started kicking his legs wildly, trying to generate enough momentum to get himself over. But for a solid five seconds, he was going nowhere. He was just perfectly balanced on that rope, kicking and flailing madly like a toad stuck on sheet of flypaper.

Eventually the pro wrestling gods showed mercy on old Larry by tipping the scale enough so that he finally slipped over the top rope and fell hard onto the floor. I, meanwhile, stood there transfixed...completely in a dazed stupor at the horrific sight of it all. It was like an out-of-body experience.

You know that out-of-body experience where you find yourself somewhere but you feel disconnected from it? Like you're in the grocery store but then catch yourself staring blankly ahead, wondering, "Am I really in the grocery store? Where am I? What am I? Is this real life?"

That's what was happening to me until another worker in the battle royal snapped me out of it. "Norm...Norm!" he whispered at me.

"Huh? Huh? Oh...oh yeah!" I said as I came back to reality and remembered that I was in the middle of a match in front of an audience.

Fortunately Larry was OK. He survived the hard fall to the floor, suffering only a badly bruised ego. When I asked him why he a) sold the dropkick that missed so badly and b) didn't go over the rope using the method I told him to use, he said, simply, "I didn't have time to think."

Bottom line: I've said it before and I'll say it again. Pro wrestling is a show. It's a presentation. Just as the actors in a Broadway show have to be trained, rehearsed, and ready to handle unforeseen events, pro wrestlers must also be fully trained and ready to preserve the illusion. If you sell moves that badly miss or you miss moves badly often, the fans will notice...

...and stop coming.


----------



## USAUSA1

The botches are terrible, but at the same time am not expecting the same level of wrestling on an indy show. Which I think get lost in this entire thread, the indies are the minor leagues, fans who watches minor league baseball,football,basketball,etc. is not expecting the same level of professionalism . I understand where you are coming from and how you want to make it better but that's not the reality of the situation.

These guys are getting paid between $25-100 to wrestle. Call me crazy but I don't expect a guy that not making any money to give his best performance. Maybe in the 80's but not in 2012.


----------



## Neutronic

> the pros just know how to cover them up very, very well


Have to disagree on that


----------



## jaw2929

Neutronic said:


> Have to disagree on that


I suppose it depends on WHICH pro's we're talking about.


----------



## wee bru

If the botches are so common then i'd have to ask if the guys you are using are trained well enough. Having been involved in various degrees with pro wrestling in Scotland since 2003, i have of course seen botches, but very few that the crowd would ever pick up on. I'd honestly have to say that the majority of shows are entirely botch-free (a botch being a serious and noticeable mistake, not a minor slip).

Botches usually happen when you ask someone to do something that is at the limit of their ability. But everyone who goes to a wrestling school is taught how to cover a botch.


----------



## smokinglizard

*We're back, folks! This is part 18 of the 50 part series entitled, "The Top 50 Reasons Why Fans Don't Go to Indie Shows."*

Reason #33: Skinny guys.

Well, here we go...let the hate mail fly!

Earlier in this series I made the case that one of the reasons why fans don't go to indie pro wrestling shows is fat guys. And I wasn't talking big, tough guys, either; I was talking about guys like this:










When I made posted this installment I was careful to point out that there's room on every roster for an exception here and there. You know, there's room on a roster for a Dusty Rhodes or Mick Foley type of guy. The point was, that the _majority_ of guys on a wrestling roster should look like athletes, like MMA fighters.

Yet despite this qualification, I got a deluge of replies and PMs naming all sort of chubby wrestlers who've gotten over.

Point completely missed.

So I let that furor die down a bit before I got to work on this installment. Again, before we begin, remember -- I believe there is always room for a spot or two on a roster for guys who don't look like MMA athletes. My point is, those should be the exception, not the norm. I've even read posts by folks saying, "But [insert legendary wrestler here] says that there is no size requirement in pro wrestling!"

You know what that is?

Bullshit.

Yes, bullshit. It's bullshit being fed by some guy running a pro wrestling school. Of course they want you to believe that if you're a tub-of-lard or beanpole you can make it in pro wrestling -- they want your money.

Duh.

So without further ado, let's get at it. And to start it all off, let me just say it: Fat pro wrestlers are bad enough...skinny pro wrestlers are even worse.

At least you can make the argument that a fat guy has muscle under all those layers of adipose tissue. A skinny guy, on the other hand, has no such recourse. He's just a runt. And runts totally destroy the illusion. Need a visual? How about this:










Wow.

So much horrible going on here.

And now I bring you this:










This, wrestling fans, is "Punk Rock Hero" Ace Danielson. All 140 pounds of him. Look at the weird, crudely drawn skull-with-wings tattoo on the area where his chest should be. Also notice the terribly drawn thing on his stomach. At first glance you might guess it's the head of an ant or a Martian, but no, it's a boombox. But it's all shrunk, like an image on a deflated balloon. It's like the guy was once very fat and lost weight, so now his boombox is all deflated.

You know, folks, I hope you appreciate what I have to trawl through to bring you all this goodness. After sifting through all the seedy muck that comes up in my search results to find fitting images to illustrate my points, I'm always left feeling like I need a shower...with Pine Sol.

Back to the boombox tattoo. I've seen better prison tattoos than that. I hope he got it for free from a new tattoo artist who was just trying to get some practice. I would hate to think that our buddy Ace paid money for it. That tattoo artist is probably in another line of work right now, like changing tires at Big O Tires. And think -- Ace is only 22. That means that boombox will be there until for the next, like, 60 years. Imagine -- it's 2072, we've mastered time travel, solved our energy problems, cured world hunger, and finally invented flying cars...and the boombox tattoo is still kickin'! 

Only Ace will look like this by then:










Hopefully the boombox will be lost in the muddy mess of other tattoos by then.

Anyway, so while conducting my research for this installment, I stumbled upon a video of our punk rock hero Ace taking on another super heavyweight by the name of Cody Blade. Together, they equalled one real wrestler. Ace was about 140 and Cody was about 135. That's 275 pounds. Don't think the ring was in any danger of breaking that night.

Guys, let me help you out. Here's the greatest advice anyone can give you at this point in your young, illustrious careers:










...and this:










...and this:










Give it a try, guys!

Speaking again from my own real-world experience, when I first got the desire to become a pro wrestler, I literally weighed 127 pounds. I'm not exaggerating. I wasn't just skinny, I was malnourished. At that point, it didn't even enter my mind to pursue wrestling in that condition. I knew I'd be laughed out of town. Instead, I went down to the local hard iron gym, sought out a competitive bodybuilder, and begged him to show me the ropes of packing on muscle. Thankfully, he did, and it wasn't before I packed on 60 pounds of muscle that I ever sought out a wrestling trainer.

Bottom line: This is the standard all wrestling promoters should set for their workers. To conjure a believable illusion that what we're doing is a legit combat sport, the guys in the ring have to look believable. They have to look like the fans in the audience can't easily kick their ass.


----------



## Neutronic

Skinny or Fat doesn't matter in wrestling

It's a fake sport for crying out loud. Kevin Steen is a fat sack of crap, but you know what he's an amazing worker.

El Generico is as skinny and out of shape as they come, but hey he's a great worker.

The notion that someone can't be beliveable because of their size is nonsense, especially when you're performing a fake sport. Good booking, matches, workrate, etc can make anyone of any size viable

That is the beauty of pro wrestling, anyone of any shape or size can be good at it. "Old timers" like Cornette that just want everyone to be muscule-bound meatheads are a problem with indie wrestling that is slowly killing it.

Heck, I remember on Mikey Whipwreck's podcast. He was just some small kid in WCW, Curt Hennig blew him off before his match with Kidman. Later on Mikey met him, and Curt goes "I know I blew you off, you can work, it's a pleasure to meet you"


----------



## Cactus

Neutronic said:


> Skinny or Fat doesn't matter in wrestling
> 
> It's a fake sport for crying out loud. Kevin Steen is a fat sack of crap, but you know what he's an amazing worker.
> 
> El Generico is as skinny and out of shape as they come, but hey he's a great worker.


He's not denying skinny or fat guys talents. Think about it. If you had yourself a small promotion and hardly any of the wrestlers are well-known, the people who see flyers of your skinny and fat wrestlers will think your promotion is garbage. Yeah, those fat and skinny guys could be fantastic workers, but fans aren't going to bother seeing them wrestle. First impressions are the most important.


----------



## wee bru

Your book says it is a 'guide to success'
You claim to be a wrestling promoter with 20 years of experience
How well have you done taking your own advice?

More than anything else in wrestling, character and personality are the most important things. If you can connect with a crowd, it doesn't matter what you look like. You should come over here and see how things are working in the UK. Most cards may have one guy over 6,2. The rest of the card is made up of a mixture of shapes and sizes but usually the majority of peeps are skinny wee cruiserweights. Yet they will not be short of bookings, and the events will draw good crowds.

You've claimed that a lot of things ruin the illusion, but hell even running the ropes 'ruins the illusion'. I think instead of me 'hating' on you i shall try to provide a similar thread which puts out my philosophies on the subject.


----------



## Neutronic

Cactus said:


> He's not denying skinny or fat guys talents. Think about it. If you had yourself a small promotion and hardly any of the wrestlers are well-known, the people who see flyers of your skinny and fat wrestlers will think your promotion is garbage. Yeah, those fat and skinny guys could be fantastic workers, but fans aren't going to bother seeing them wrestle. First impressions are the most important.


but think about Chikara

Most of their first guys were skinny or fat

Fast forward 11 years later, look where they are now


----------



## Cactus

Neutronic said:


> but think about Chikara
> 
> Most of their first guys were skinny or fat
> 
> Fast forward 11 years later, look where they are now


Chikara gave them an image to make up for their size, so that isn't really a valid argument.


----------



## sharkboy22

Nothing's wrong with skinny guys like El Generico or fat guys like Kevin Steen. BTW, Kevin Steen isn't really that fat,

The skinny and fat guys in deathmatch promotions are the problem.

Plus, there's nothing wrong with having one or two skinny or fat guys but when the majority of the roster is nothing but fat sweat cheeseburger eating guys or vanilla midgets, it sends a bad message.

I'm not one for the "Bigger is better" argument and I don't think one needs to be all jacked up to be a pro wrestler but there's a certain way you gotta look for people to buy into to you. If you're 5 foot 9 and weight 108 pounds don't try to sell yourself as some badass heel.


----------



## Neutronic

I think Grizzly Redwood is an example of a smaller guy that is in great shape and can look like a viable opponent

He's not 180 or even 5 9 but he has a good look, gimmick, and workrate to make up for that.

Also have you seen Steen's stomach lately? Compare 2010 Steen to now, it's very surreal how much he's ballooned


----------



## SHIRLEY

I've changed my sig, in honour of OPs sheer ignorance.


----------



## Neutronic

^ I Love you


----------



## smokinglizard

Neutronic said:


> Skinny or Fat doesn't matter in wrestling
> 
> It's a fake sport for crying out loud.


Damn, people! Damn! I mean, come on, you guys must just be messing with me. There is no way anyone can _still_ miss the fundamental point after all that's been said on this topic. You must be deliberately refusing to get it.

I remember as a high school kid taking the SAT test I got to the analogy part in the test. You know, the part where they'd ask you Dog is to Animal as Tree is to...

a) Desk
b) Plant
c) Green
d) Wood

...and I'd say to myself, "Oh come on! Who on earth could possibly get these questions wrong?!"

Well, now I know.

Allow me to point out the exact quote from the post:



> When I made posted this installment I was careful to point out that there's room on every roster for an exception here and there. *You know, there's room on a roster for a Dusty Rhodes or Mick Foley type of guy. The point was, that the majority of guys on a wrestling roster should look like athletes, like MMA fighters.*


Look at the bold text! That's the text that's darker than the other text! Read it carefully. What does it say?! For crying out loud!

And by the way, action movies are fake, too. But look at the stars of them. Most -- not all, but most -- have great physiques. 



Cactus said:


> He's not denying skinny or fat guys talents. Think about it. If you had yourself a small promotion and hardly any of the wrestlers are well-known, the people who see flyers of your skinny and fat wrestlers will think your promotion is garbage. Yeah, those fat and skinny guys could be fantastic workers, but fans aren't going to bother seeing them wrestle. First impressions are the most important.


Correct! Thank you for having a brain and for being able to read and comprehend English.



sharkboy22 said:


> Nothing's wrong with skinny guys like El Generico or fat guys like Kevin Steen. BTW, Kevin Steen isn't really that fat,
> 
> The skinny and fat guys in deathmatch promotions are the problem.
> 
> Plus, there's nothing wrong with having one or two skinny or fat guys but when the majority of the roster is nothing but fat sweat cheeseburger eating guys or vanilla midgets, it sends a bad message.
> 
> I'm not one for the "Bigger is better" argument and I don't think one needs to be all jacked up to be a pro wrestler but there's a certain way you gotta look for people to buy into to you. If you're 5 foot 9 and weight 108 pounds don't try to sell yourself as some badass heel.


Yes! Thank you as well for having a brain and for paying attention in English class as a child.



> I've changed my sig, in honour of OPs sheer ignorance.


This post is so ironic, I can't decide whether to laugh or cry. I'm stuck.

Do you not see how you posting Roy Nelson's picture completely validates my point, the point you're laughingly trying to debunk?!? Nelson is an _exception_ to the rule, not the norm. Not all UFC guys look like him. Most don't. But a few here and there with bodies like Nelson do and they make it. *That's what I've been saying all along!*

There are classes at your local community colleges, people, to help you with reading for comprehension. They're not very expensive. You don't get any credit for taking them, though, as this was something you were supposed to learn in the 6th grade.



Neutronic said:


> ^ I Love you


Please take your bromance elsewhere.



wee bru said:


> You've claimed that a lot of things ruin the illusion, but hell even running the ropes 'ruins the illusion'. I think instead of me 'hating' on you i shall try to provide a similar thread which puts out my philosophies on the subject.


At last, a contrary opinion from someone with an IQ greater than his hat size.

Good point, Wee Bru, and your example is actually an _exact_ example for discussion I cite in my book, _Fixing the Indies_. As I see it, it's OK for pro wrestling to stretch the imagination, but it's _not_ OK for it to insult the intelligence. Running the ropes, to me, walks that fine line between the two. If done right, it gets a pass for stretching the imagination. If done wrong, it's ridiculous.

Good idea on starting a new thread, but I hope you still read along with this one, as I enjoy what you add to the discussion.


----------



## Neutronic

I honestly don't get why people keep trying to make wrestling into MMA.

I said it once, I'll say it again. Size does not matter in wrestling, if we as fans or promoters, shunned any wrestlers away that were fat,skinny, or small we wouldn't have.

Dusty Rhodes
Generico
Steen
Amazing Red
Rey Mysterio
Dragon Kid (in fact 90% of the dragon gate roster)
Great Sasuke
Tiger Mask 1
Vader
Jake Roberts
Terry Funk

I could go on all day

Everyone in wrestling shouldn't look like they're roided up out of their mind. Notice that the majority of memorable wrestlers, weren;t the cookie cutter bodybuilder types. *Why isn't turning everyone into a stereotypical MMA fighter a section of your book?*


----------



## Concrete

I think the OP might not exactly mean the wrestlers need to look like MMA fighters but they do need to look athletic. 0% body fat but having little to no muscle is not the same as looking athletic.And that it is okay for some huskyer guys and some skinnyer guys. It would probably be better for everyone so they can get a better idea for things, since I don't really know much about the wrestlers back in the territory days, but were they athletic guys or were they all like Dusty or was everyone like Mick Foley for that matter. I understand that you can be a good wrestler no matter what your size but the majority of people aren't fat or skinny who wrestle. I also think there is a lot of room between fat and skinny. It doesn't take much. Let's take 2 of the top wrestlers on the independents: Kevin Steen and El Generico. I believe they don't break into being really fat or skinny.They are both almost 6ft. tall and Steen is around 250 lbs. and Generico is around 200 lbs. Generico may look tinier compared to some wrestlers but he isn't a bean poll. It is important to be able to work a match and connect with the crowd but you really shouldn't look like you aren't trying to look good. If you show up at work in jeans and a T-shirt you are going to be talked to no matter how good you are. Vader looked like a BAD ASS and was so he could be rounder. Mysterio and Sasuke can/could fly like they were more comfortable in the air than on the ground so they were allowed to be tinier. Plus they were part of a Cruiserweight or Jr. Heavyweight division so the big boys were there. Let's just make sure we put everything in perspective.


----------



## smokinglizard

Neutronic said:


> Everyone in wrestling shouldn't look like they're roided up out of their mind. Notice that the majority of memorable wrestlers, weren;t the cookie cutter bodybuilder types. *Why isn't turning everyone into a stereotypical MMA fighter a section of your book?*


Oy. This is a textbook example of a straw man argument. What's a straw man argument, you ask? Here's a great definition from California State University: 



> This is the fallacy of refuting a caricatured or extreme version of somebody's argument, rather than the actual argument they've made. Often this fallacy involves putting words into somebody's mouth by saying they've made arguments they haven't actually made...


Source: http://www.csun.edu/~dgw61315/fallacies.html

So how is this a straw man? Let's take a look:

a) I never said pro wrestlers should look like they're "roided up out of their mind."
b) I never even suggested they should take steroids.
c) I never said pro wrestlers should look like bodybuilder types. I said the majority of wrestlers on a card should look like MMA fighters.

Since you mentioned Terry Funk, let's take a look at him when he was young and a champion:










Do you see a "bodybuilder type"? No. But could this the physique be an MMA fighter today? Absolutely.


----------



## Neutronic

Thank you for contradicting your original point about how wrestlers should look athletic.

Does that pic of Terry Funk look athletic? Hell no.

There is no point in arguing any further if you're going to be stuck in your old school ways of what a wrestler is.

I'm thankful there are a ton of promoters out there that value workrate over being an MMA fighter so we CAN have indie stars such as Amazing Red, Generico, Steen, etc.


----------



## jawbreaker

Funk looks incredibly athletic in that picture. I don't know what you're talking about.


----------



## lewieG

To be honest, I'd pay more attention to what the OP was saying if he didn't say it like a conceited dickhead. If some people on here have a different opinion to you, and don't think skinny/fat matters, then they think differently to you and that's normal. Doesn't mean you have to be a jerk to them and insult their intelligence when they may well be more intelligent than you.


----------



## Neutronic

jawbreaker said:


> Funk looks incredibly athletic in that picture. I don't know what you're talking about.


I can't imagine the average person who has no idea who Funk is, seeing him without his shirt off and saying he looks athletic


----------



## smokinglizard

lewieG said:


> To be honest, I'd pay more attention to what the OP was saying if he didn't say it like a conceited dickhead. If some people on here have a different opinion to you, and don't think skinny/fat matters, then they think differently to you and that's normal. Doesn't mean you have to be a jerk to them and insult their intelligence when they may well be more intelligent than you.


I do hope you realize that this is all just a work, right? It's to be, you know, funny? Some guys here are giving me some heat, and I'm just giving some back. It's nothing personal...just some smack talk, all in good fun, pro wrestling style.


----------



## wee bru

I will of course keep reading. I don't have a problem with the majority of what you say just the way it is presented. Tone is very hard to tell on the internet of course but you come across quite poorly sometimes. 

I do quite like your general philosophy. A successful pro wrestling organisation needs to establish its boundaries and expectations, what sort of things can happen, etc. Wrestling exists in reality, but it is a 'stretched' reality - as you say things like running the ropes etc are fine so long as that is expected - so long as the audience is able to be drawn in. In this respect, your other advice relating to professional appearances, physiques of wrestlers, etc also makes sense. You are effectively establishing a new kayfabe. this is one approach, and it is usually seen in organisations catering to families. 

The other indie approach is a complete rejection of wrestling in reality. You no longer keep up any pretence of legitimacy. This is far more prevalent now in the indies, where people will point out when people botch, are far more aware of the backstage and inner workings of wrestling and want to be treated as knowledgable. When done well (look up ICW Insane Championship Wrestling) it can be a hell of a lot of fun and can draw, but at other times it just completely limits the number of fans who will attend - i think this is what you are addressing in these posts. 

The problem with the second approach is that it can alienate casual fans. And in wrestling, the casual fans who can be attracted to wrestling when they would not otherwise go are the ones who make money. Its why Cena is at the top of every card when everyone on here criticises his shoddy in ring skills. The causal fans are the ones who made British Wrestling successful - drawn in by Giant Haystacks and Big Daddy. The lack of casual draws is what causes problems for wrestling currently. Wrestling at this moment in time is not cool. If you want to know where the casual fans went, the UFC might not be a bad place to check. 

Wrestling always goes in circles. When the convention is to do one thing, the person or company doing the opposite is usually the one to make money. Hogan broke all rules when he appeared, wrestling a heel style as a babyface. Austin did the same thing. The Attitude era as a whole did that, and moved further into unreality. Now that indies do cater for educated fans more and forget all kayfabe, i could see a return to 'old fashioned', more athletic and realistic based wrestling being successful.


----------



## wee bru

In other words, there are multiple approaches. Fixing the Indies isn't a great title or idea, because these indie organisations have chosen their styles because that is what they think will be successful. Many promoters will simply be attempting to pick up the hardcore wrestling fans and can use wrestlers who don't look great or shoddy presentation because it is 'underground'- they have tempered their expectations. I mean, when i pick up my Powerslam magazine and check the attendence figures for shows, ROH, the biggest indie promotion, doesn't even draw that well. Instead, this is your imagining of a organisation that you believe will be successful. 

Again, i can't judge how wrestling is going in the states. I live in Scotland, where pro wrestling is actually doing really well, with about 7 promotions all drawing decent numbers, 4 training locations within 1.5 hours of my house, and ICW about to draw 350+ for an adult show at the Garage (it might be a 500 sellout at this rate). There are a number of different approaches all working here.


----------



## smokinglizard

wee bru said:


> I will of course keep reading. I don't have a problem with the majority of what you say just the way it is presented. Tone is very hard to tell on the internet of course but you come across quite poorly sometimes.


Just to be clear -- this whole thread is intended to be funny. I'm serious about the bottom line to each of the installments, but the stuff in the middle, the critiques, the jabs at posters, etc., are all intended to be funny, tongue-in-cheek, and not serious. It's like being a heel, insulting the fans at ringside to generate some heat and engage them. It's all to entertain. I'm surprised anyone would think any of this is serious.

What a bunch of marks!

^ (Ha ha...this, too, was a joke. Just kidding.)


----------



## Neutronic

wee bru said:


> Your book says it is a 'guide to success'
> You claim to be a wrestling promoter with 20 years of experience
> How well have you done taking your own advice?
> 
> More than anything else in wrestling, character and personality are the most important things. If you can connect with a crowd, it doesn't matter what you look like. You should come over here and see how things are working in the UK. Most cards may have one guy over 6,2. The rest of the card is made up of a mixture of shapes and sizes but usually the majority of peeps are skinny wee cruiserweights. Yet they will not be short of bookings, and the events will draw good crowds.
> 
> You've claimed that a lot of things ruin the illusion, but hell even running the ropes 'ruins the illusion'. I think instead of me 'hating' on you i shall try to provide a similar thread which puts out my philosophies on the subject.


@OP

Why did you skip over this post?

When you really think about it, everything done in wrestling ruins the illusion.


----------



## Certified G

I agree with OP on the skinny guys. The indy's are being plagued with skinny **** with kickpads. It's definitely okay to have some smaller guys on your roster, for variety in matches, and for the underdog role. Big guys are generally needed too, again for variety and to balance it out. Though imo, the rest of the roster should look like athletes, like AR Fox for example, he has a great body and looks (and is) athletic.


----------



## wee bru

There was a time when you could get easy access to guy who were athletic and well built, coming out of amateur wrestling or football at a college or high school level. They would agree, be shown the secrets of the business, and perform for large crowds in the territories. 

Nowadays, the people who generally take up wrestling are either skinny or fat. They are fans first and foremost, often very nerdy fans at that. I should know, because i am a skinny wee bastard as are most of the people i train with. You don't get the same access to talent that nowadays has the option of MMA. Hell, even the Rock has said he would have done MMA if it had been an option in his time. 

Bottom line, its damn hard to get a roster full of bigger, athletic looking guys. Now everybody can look athletic, even smaller guys can get muscle definition, but legit MMA looking guys are most likely to be doing MMA. Wrestlers in the Indies will most often be trainees of the organisation, and some guys brought in, so it just depends on who you have at your disposal.


----------



## smokinglizard

Neutronic said:


> @OP
> 
> Why did you skip over this post?
> 
> When you really think about it, everything done in wrestling ruins the illusion.


I didn't skip over it. I think you may just have missed my response. As I mentioned there, I cover this topic in depth in my book, _Fixing the Indies_, and in a nutshell, I view it this way: It's OK to stretch the imagination but wrong to insult the intelligence. Running the ropes, per Wee Bru's example, if done right, stretches the imagination. Other things, like a four man German suplex where all four men suplex each other all at once, insult the intelligence. Again, it's like an action movie. If you have a good action movie like, say, "Die Hard" where the action stretches the imagination, it's great. You have a very entertaining, engaging experience. The punches look realistic, the gunfire looks realistic, etc. But if you have some other action movie that's just over-the-top ridiculous, the audience is going to walk away unhappy.

The same holds true with pro wrestling. It's just common sense if you really give it thought.



wee bru said:


> There was a time when you could get easy access to guy who were athletic and well built, coming out of amateur wrestling or football at a college or high school level. They would agree, be shown the secrets of the business, and perform for large crowds in the territories.


WWE still does this. Most of the guys WWE recruits are athletes out of college football and baseball programs. 



> Nowadays, the people who generally take up wrestling are either skinny or fat. They are fans first and foremost, often very nerdy fans at that.


Yes, good point. Excellent point.



> I should know, because i am a skinny wee bastard as are most of the people i train with.


OK, let me ask you, then: What's your goal in pro wrestling? Is it just to have fun or do you have a dream you'd like to fulfill? Why don't you hit the weights hard and bulk up...or are you already working on that?



> Bottom line, its damn hard to get a roster full of bigger, athletic looking guys. Now everybody can look athletic, even smaller guys can get muscle definition, but legit MMA looking guys are most likely to be doing MMA. Wrestlers in the Indies will most often be trainees of the organisation, and some guys brought in, so it just depends on who you have at your disposal.


Understood. But this is the point I'm making. With poor talent come poor turnouts. I can't speak for the UK, but I can certainly speak for the US. Here in the US, the indies are struggling very, very badly. Very few indie promoters are making any money. I know this for a fact.

Is it a tough situation? Sure. You're right -- good talent is difficult to come by. But to say, "Hey, all we have is bad talent so let's just go with what we have," is a lot like a bad restaurant saying, "Hey, all we have is bad food, so let's just serve what we have." Yeah, sure, you're free to do that, but no one is going to come to your restaurant. And the customers won't care what your reasons for the bad food are. They're just going to know your food is bad...that's all they need to know. That's all they care about.

A large part of the problem today is the fact that today's indie "promotions" are more about being a training school than they are about running shows. They'll admit anyone so long as they have the cash to pay the tuition. They have to -- it's their primary source of revenue. What you wind up with is a glut of out-of-shape, unathletic, nerdy fans climbing into the ring. And it's sort of a shame, as these "schools" are just peddling dreams.


----------



## wee bru

I'm pleased you responded to one of my posts, but i'd rather you had responded to the other one. Anyway, clearing up points, it is pretty clear that we are on the same page at least to some extent. 

Clearing up from your last post:
Yes, the WWE recruits athletes. It has always recruited bigger built guys, and Jim Ross when scouting talent always favours former amateur wrestlers and athletes. But there is very little money currently in wrestling, and prospective talent knows this. As i said before, wrestling currently isn't cool, it requires great dedication, and the guys likely to put money down to train are fans. Ultimately, unless you make it to the WWE, the chance of making a living as a wrestler is really slim. Why not go into MMA? 

But good booking solves some problems. If you have skinny and fat guys on the roster, the guys who do have good, marketable physiques are accentuated. I'm not saying that wrestling should be made up of skinny and fat guys, and it really isn't. Most shows put on a good mix of talent. 

As for me being a skinny wee git, i'm just starting out (2 months in). It was far more important for me to get to a position where i was physical fit enough to perform moves safely and handle my own bodyweight. We have a good cruiserweight scene, but i shall be hitting the weights closer to being ready for shows - i will do this to give myself an advantage and stand out more. I'm not ridiculous, i'm standard build and a little skinny, but adding some newb gains will almost instantly make me larger than most of our roster. 

TRAINING
Training people is the easiest way to make money for a promoter. People will pay to train and will wrestle for free. It means that there are poor trainers out there who put out talent that can't wrestle up to a high enough standard. That goes back to your botching argument too. Think what you told us about your figures for putting on a show. 

Bottom line is money. Promoters are trying to make it, there isn't a lot of it about, and your plans require that money be spent. There aren't a great deal of people with the necessary funds who will put them into wrestling, locate talent that they want to start training, get a professional outfit going etc. I don't think this situation changes until the attitude to wrestling does.

At some point, there will be another boom period. Some promoter will catch on to a youth movement, a change in musical tastes, etc, and will produce wrestling that captures that feeling. That will then be replicated by TNA and WWE, and wrestling will become a cool activity again. I think thats when things can change properly. 

Ultimately, what lets you down on a lot of these points is that you think these niggles are putting people off coming back - but its getting people to come through the door in the first place that is the problem. Your ideas may work, you may be able to capture a casual audience again and you might start to make money. But i feel that if that was the case, you'd be doing that instead of writing a book, right?


----------



## lewieG

smokinglizard said:


> I do hope you realize that this is all just a work, right? It's to be, you know, funny? Some guys here are giving me some heat, and I'm just giving some back. It's nothing personal...just some smack talk, all in good fun, pro wrestling style.


You're...working a wrestling board? You're acting as a heel on a wrestling board? Are you sure you don't have anything better to do?


----------



## chris2038

wee bru said:


> I'm pleased you responded to one of my posts, but i'd rather you had responded to the other one. Anyway, clearing up points, it is pretty clear that we are on the same page at least to some extent.
> 
> Clearing up from your last post:
> Yes, the WWE recruits athletes. It has always recruited bigger built guys, and Jim Ross when scouting talent always favours former amateur wrestlers and athletes. But there is very little money currently in wrestling, and prospective talent knows this. As i said before, wrestling currently isn't cool, it requires great dedication, and the guys likely to put money down to train are fans. Ultimately, unless you make it to the WWE, the chance of making a living as a wrestler is really slim. Why not go into MMA?
> 
> But good booking solves some problems. If you have skinny and fat guys on the roster, the guys who do have good, marketable physiques are accentuated. I'm not saying that wrestling should be made up of skinny and fat guys, and it really isn't. Most shows put on a good mix of talent.
> 
> As for me being a skinny wee git, i'm just starting out (2 months in). It was far more important for me to get to a position where i was physical fit enough to perform moves safely and handle my own bodyweight. We have a good cruiserweight scene, but i shall be hitting the weights closer to being ready for shows - i will do this to give myself an advantage and stand out more. I'm not ridiculous, i'm standard build and a little skinny, but adding some newb gains will almost instantly make me larger than most of our roster.
> 
> TRAINING
> Training people is the easiest way to make money for a promoter. People will pay to train and will wrestle for free. It means that there are poor trainers out there who put out talent that can't wrestle up to a high enough standard. That goes back to your botching argument too. Think what you told us about your figures for putting on a show.
> 
> Bottom line is money. Promoters are trying to make it, there isn't a lot of it about, and your plans require that money be spent. There aren't a great deal of people with the necessary funds who will put them into wrestling, locate talent that they want to start training, get a professional outfit going etc. I don't think this situation changes until the attitude to wrestling does.
> 
> At some point, there will be another boom period. Some promoter will catch on to a youth movement, a change in musical tastes, etc, and will produce wrestling that captures that feeling. That will then be replicated by TNA and WWE, and wrestling will become a cool activity again. I think thats when things can change properly.
> 
> Ultimately, what lets you down on a lot of these points is that you think these niggles are putting people off coming back - but its getting people to come through the door in the first place that is the problem. Your ideas may work, you may be able to capture a casual audience again and you might start to make money. But i feel that if that was the case, you'd be doing that instead of writing a book, right?


Man, you (and others) sure enjoy missing the point.

I disagree with your position regarding promoters taking shortcuts in order to put money in their pockets. In order to reduce the inherent risk of failure, the scene needs more business-savvy promoters who will make short term sacrifices for long term gains. That’s right... spend money to make money. If you don't have the upstart capital (AND decent business knowledge) then stay the fuck out and remain a fan. Promoters (working in the same area) need to collaborate their efforts to ensure pro wrestling does not become watered down with shitty talent and frequent poor shows.

I'm also going to disagree with your opinion that "getting people to come in the first place" is the topic the OP should be focusing on. I've personally seen four territories burnt down to a crisp. Yeah, opening weekend for this one company in 2005 drew in 250 fans in an area that was deprived of wrestling for a couple years. Fast forward two years later the average draw amounted to 25 ticket buyers per show, one in particular drawing 1 paying fan. 

This was a direct result of promoters booking out-of-shape untalented geeks/fan boys who have only trained for a few months. Also, 4 companies ran there simultaneously - at least a total of 4 shows (that were overbooked) a month. They all took shortcuts in order to earn short-term profits. The tactic to keep their students paying monthly training fees was to promise them a spot on the upcoming show. They, like you, were okay with the idea of recruiting geeky ticket buyers (or un-athletic "tier 2" athletes) as students when, quite frankly, there were already plenty other capable wrestlers from other schools who could've filled the booking "void".

You then went on to attack the OP for writing a book instead of running a promotion himself. Now, because of all the watered down garbage out there, who in their right mind would invest in an indy wrestling promotion? The casual mass market fan will already associate any wrestling that’s non-WWE as a typical indy show. Too many mass market fans have already been alienated. I've already mentioned and explained the concept of inherent risk... now I will illustrate: 


1) OP sets up shop near his residence where 3 half-assed promotions already run bi-monthly shows, and where 10 half-assed promotions have folded (this is usually the case, trust me)

2) OP advertises properly, attempts to secure sponsors, puts out flyers promising a first-rate product that the territory hasn't seen in quite some time.

3) Casual fan stumbles across flyers, ads, w/e only to mistakenly associate the OP's new company with all the other fly-by-night promotions that have come and gone over the years. 

4) Mass market fans end up overlooking the OP's promotion, as they have come to realize, from past experience, that a non-WWE wrestling show will likely be a waste of time. They would rather spend their discretionary income and weekend nights on something that they know, for sure, won't disappoint (especially in this economy).

5) OP is stuck running shows with a small fan-base. In order to cover costs and "make money", he will have to book garbage workers for his next show who are willing to work for free, rent out a venue in a less desirable location, and cut corners on production. As stated from points 1) and 4) above, this will only serve to deteriorate indy wrestling's credibility, and further dilute the scene. 

Conclusion: the risk of failure beyond the promoter's control is far too high at this stage. Any smart investor will avoid this business at all costs. 

Solution: Shut down all active promotions, deprive the area from wrestling for at least 2 years, and then rebuild by doing things right.


----------



## Neutronic

lewieG said:


> You're...working a wrestling board? You're acting as a heel on a wrestling board? Are you sure you don't have anything better to do?


Someone saying they are acting like a heel on a wrestlingforum calling someone else a mark is kinda funny


----------



## wee bru

Chris2038, i've just read your post. I think you actually agree with me, not disagree with me. I wasn't suggesting that promoters should put on bare minimum shows to make money, i'm just stating that is what happens. Like i say, the things that the OP wants take money - they require someone to make an investment. However, the current climate says that the investment is very risky - there aren't going to be too many people who will make that investment when the chances of success are slim. The required number of fans attending a show to make money is fairly high and currently beyond many indie promotions. 

Your second point that you disagree with me on, the fanbase thing. Yes, building a fanbase is really important. I too have seen successful organisations suddenly lose the connection with their fans and go under. I have also seen excellent organisations that have managed to establish themselves well in certain towns and build from there. My contention is that most of the indie organisations that the OP is trying to help won't get people in the door to begin with. I'll concede that i didn't make my point very well above. Things do cause fans to give up on an organisation, and every care should be taken to try and retain fans. Point withdrawn. 

I'm not attacking him for writing a book, merely his claim that he has the guide to success. I have stated earlier that i think it is excellent that he wrote a book. But if he is legimitately pitching his book to us, i want some proof as to his credentials. I wouldn't buy a golfing guide that was written by a bad golfer. The OP states that this is a guide to success in wrestling, i want to see the proof of his success. I think that is fair considering the OP is accusing others of fallacies in their reasoning.


----------



## chris2038

lewieG said:


> To be honest, I'd pay more attention to what the OP was saying if he didn't say it like a conceited dickhead. If some people on here have a different opinion to you, and don't think skinny/fat matters, then they think differently to you and that's normal. Doesn't mean you have to be a jerk to them and insult their intelligence when they may well be more intelligent than you.


More intelligent than the OP on this matter? Hmmmmm sorry cheif.

I don't think any of the posters here are, first and foremost, _in a position_ to disagree with someone whose been on the other end of the curtain for 20+ years. In addition, a lot of them are initiating any insults by ruthlessly attacking the OP's posts in the first place. 

And of course, they aren't in ANY position to disagree when they didn't bother, or weren't capable of, understanding the true underlying message each post entails.

Rediculously fat (in proportion to the amount of muscle they have), rediculously skinny or small... The OP made it clear there are spots on the card for a couple of them. Also, their "look" is often perfectly positioned with their gimmick I.E - spike dudley and big sal in ECW. Amazing red is also a good example.

If your gimmick entails coming across as a legit athlete and a fierce competitor, theres no way in hell the casual mass market fan will buy into any of your shit unless you LOOK like an actual athlete and/or a tough guy. 

Note: these athletes and/or tough guys I just mentioned may come in various sizes. Fine examples of smaller guys are Matt Cross, Rey mysterio, El Generico, and Low Ki. All are passable looking athletes whose athletic appearence seperate themselves from the average fan in the audience. 

Now.... The punk rock loser with the boom box tattoo, and the fat tub of shit carrying the WWE replica ARE NOT PASSABLE - PERIOD!!! Unless they are mid-card comedy style jobbers who are given 4 minutes per card, tops.


----------



## chris2038

wee bru said:


> Chris2038, i've just read your post. I think you actually agree with me, not disagree with me. I wasn't suggesting that promoters should put on bare minimum shows to make money, i'm just stating that is what happens. Like i say, the things that the OP wants take money - they require someone to make an investment. However, the current climate says that the investment is very risky - there aren't going to be too many people who will make that investment when the chances of success are slim. The required number of fans attending a show to make money is fairly high and currently beyond many indie promotions.
> 
> Your second point that you disagree with me on, the fanbase thing. Yes, building a fanbase is really important. I too have seen successful organisations suddenly lose the connection with their fans and go under. I have also seen excellent organisations that have managed to establish themselves well in certain towns and build from there. My contention is that most of the indie organisations that the OP is trying to help won't get people in the door to begin with. I'll concede that i didn't make my point very well above. Things do cause fans to give up on an organisation, and every care should be taken to try and retain fans. Point withdrawn.
> 
> I'm not attacking him for writing a book, merely his claim that he has the guide to success. I have stated earlier that i think it is excellent that he wrote a book. But if he is legimitately pitching his book to us, i want some proof as to his credentials. I wouldn't buy a golfing guide that was written by a bad golfer. The OP states that this is a guide to success in wrestling, i want to see the proof of his success. I think that is fair considering the OP is accusing others of fallacies in their reasoning.


Understood. Thanks for the clarification.

I'm not sure... don't quote me on this, but I believe the OP has 20+ years experience both as a top-tier wrestler and booker or promoter. 

"Top-tier" meaning mass market successes. Which means lower-tier is anything that comes across as bushleague - like the shit I did as a student in 2005-2007. 

Note: I have no affiliation with the OP. I just agree with his position on everything so far. A lot of former/current workers and students do too.


----------



## wee bru

chris2038 said:


> More intelligent than the OP on this matter? Hmmmmm sorry cheif.
> 
> I don't think any of the posters here are, first and foremost, _in a position_ to disagree with someone whose been on the other end of the curtain for 20+ years. In addition, a lot of them are initiating any insults by ruthlessly attacking the OP's posts in the first place.


I do agree with you to some extent here. Anyone who has trained in wrestling will know about etiquette, you shake the hands of everyone you meet and you shut the hell up when someone with more experience than you is talking. If you go to a good wrestling school, there will be an old schooler there to put you in your place if you talk out of line. 

BUT this is a pro wrestling forum and quite strictly the fans domain. The OP is selling a product and apparently acting as a heel. I don't have to accept his points, but i shall try my best to remain respectful at the very least. It would be quite cool, OP, if you would share some of your expriences and your history in the sport with us.


----------



## chris2038

wee bru said:


> I do agree with you to some extent here. Anyone who has trained in wrestling will know about etiquette, you shake the hands of everyone you meet and you shut the hell up when someone with more experience than you is talking. If you go to a good wrestling school, there will be an old schooler there to put you in your place if you talk out of line.
> 
> BUT this is a pro wrestling forum and quite strictly the fans domain. The OP is selling a product and apparently acting as a heel. I don't have to accept his points, but i shall try my best to remain respectful at the very least. It would be quite cool, OP, if you would share some of your expriences and your history in the sport with us.


Just generally speaking, they don't have the credentials or knowledge base to say some short-minded crap like "YOU DUMBASS! THATS NOT HOW IT IS, YOU ARE WRONG!!!" They have the right to an opinion, much like anyone with half a brain has the right to not take them seriously. 

More emphasis on my second point of course, putting down one of OP's post when they didn't bother to understand the friggin thing in the first place.


----------



## wee bru

Norm E Kaier, right? I can find almost nothing about you EXCEPT for American Championship Freefighting. I've been to the website, and i have to say, it looks fairly close to what i picture in my head when i dream of promoting (although i'm just the other side of the realism line from you). This looks close to original pancrase or the old World of Sport wrestling from the UK. 

As i say, i would very much like to hear about the rest of your career but honestly hope you have success with it. It looks good, fits right in with everything you have said so far. What is the current status? 

See when we were criticising you? You should have shown us this!

EDIT: I've watched the screeners for it now. There are kinks, its a really interesting idea but it is quite far removed from wrestling. I still like the concept though. It just needs to take its cue more from Pride FC than from American MMA.

If you get going and need some talent, give me a call. My offence is heavily influenced by Sakuraba and Daijiro Matsui.

Honestly, if PrideFC still existed, i probably wouldn't watch WWE.
It's 2am and i've just watched a 15 minute Sakuraba highlight reel and am thinking of watching the Openweight GP again. 
Fuck i love Pride FC
that was real pro wrestling. Royce Gracie vs Sakuraba, 90 minute match, only ending in a KO or submission.


----------



## Neutronic

chris2038 said:


> More intelligent than the OP on this matter? Hmmmmm sorry cheif.
> 
> I don't think any of the posters here are, first and foremost, _in a position_ to disagree with someone whose been on the other end of the curtain for 20+ years. In addition, a lot of them are initiating any insults by ruthlessly attacking the OP's posts in the first place.
> 
> .


You mean the guy we can barely find any info on? Who's promotion nobody seems to have heard of?

I'm still wondering what happened to his promotion if he knows how to supposedly fix the indies.


----------



## USAUSA1

Taking this thread a little too personal?

The whole skinny and fat guys point are valid. Sure, there are exceptions but 95% of the time it looks ridiculous.


----------



## Post-Modern Devil

I personally beleive a HUGE aspect behind the backlash against the whole fat/skinny thing in this thread is the complete lack of perspective motivated by the worldview enforced by the WWE and WWE fanboys. These posters I feel speak as if they are indy fans defending talented guys like Kaval, Davey Richards, Eddie Edwards, El Generico, Alex Shelley, Austin Aries, CM Punk, and Daniel Bryan from criticism for not being the size of guys like Batista, Triple H, Sheamus, Mason Ryan, and other wrestlers with the prototypical WWE build whereas I assume the OP is primarily talking about the dreck that populates the unknown indy feds.

On another note, I feel as though small wrestlers who wrestle in baggy shorts tends to be MUCH worse than average than small wrestlers who wrestle in traditional tights (who tend to run the gambit from bad to good). Its as if guys who choose wrestle in shorts tend to already be uncomftorable and insecure about themselves already and as a result tend to suck by default. Or am I exaggerating?


----------



## USAUSA1

Post-Modern Devil said:


> I personally beleive a HUGE aspect behind the backlash against the whole fat/skinny thing in this thread is the complete lack of perspective motivated by the worldview enforced by the WWE and WWE fanboys. These posters I feel speak as if they are indy fans defending talented guys like Kaval, Davey Richards, Eddie Edwards, El Generico, Alex Shelley, Austin Aries, CM Punk, and Daniel Bryan from criticism for not being the size of guys like Batista, Triple H, Sheamus, Mason Ryan, and other wrestlers with the prototypical WWE build whereas I assume the OP is primarily talking about the dreck that populates the unknown indy feds.
> 
> On another note, I feel as though small wrestlers who wrestle in baggy shorts tends to be MUCH worse than average than small wrestlers who wrestle in traditional tights (who tend to run the gambit from bad to good). Its as if guys who choose wrestle in shorts tend to already be uncomftorable and insecure about themselves already and as a result tend to suck by default. Or am I exaggerating?


You right, they are confusing the two. Austin Aries for example is nowhere near skinny.


----------



## lewieG

chris2038 said:


> More intelligent than the OP on this matter? Hmmmmm sorry cheif.


Firstly, it's chief*. Second, I never said people in this thread knew more about the topic than OP. I personally have worked with promotions, not for anywhere near as long as OP, but that's irrelevant to my point. All I was saying, is that OP might get the positive response to his posts that he's looking for if he didn't attack and insult everyone who slightly disagrees with him. Then he said he's trying to work the board and be a heel, which...well yeah...


----------



## chris2038

lewieG said:


> Firstly, it's chief*. Second, I never said people in this thread knew more about the topic than OP. I personally have worked with promotions, not for anywhere near as long as OP, but that's irrelevant to my point. All I was saying, is that OP might get the positive response to his posts that he's looking for if he didn't attack and insult everyone who slightly disagrees with him. Then he said he's trying to work the board and be a heel, which...well yeah...


That's not how it has been... unless we're reading entirely different threads. I've noticed a hell of a lot of posters attacking the OP's entries so far, then going on to insult him on a personal level. I don't understand how fighting fire with fire isn't warranted.


----------



## smokinglizard

Time for a quick update and to answer some comments!



wee bru said:


> Norm E Kaiser, right?


Yes, that's me.



> I can find almost nothing about you EXCEPT for American Championship Freefighting. I've been to the website, and i have to say, it looks fairly close to what i picture in my head when i dream of promoting (although i'm just the other side of the realism line from you). This looks close to original pancrase or the old World of Sport wrestling from the UK.
> 
> As i say, i would very much like to hear about the rest of your career but honestly hope you have success with it. It looks good, fits right in with everything you have said so far.


Thanks. It's a concept I really want to develop further.



> What is the current status?


The video you watched was a screener for a TV show concept we pitched to a major cable network. The director of programming of said network loves the concept of crossing pro wrestling with MMA, but he says he would like to see the production more mature. That's really the motivation behind writing my book, _*Fixing the Indies*_ -- it's a fund raiser, of sorts, to help raise the funds to develop the show concept further. I need to raise about another $25,000 to get it done right. So that's why I wrote a book.



> See when we were criticising you? You should have shown us this!


I think I did earlier in the thread. I think you joined this party late.



> EDIT: I've watched the screeners for it now. There are kinks...


Yes, you're right -- there were some kinks. It's a concept video...the idea needs lots of polish.



> ...its a really interesting idea but it is quite far removed from wrestling. I still like the concept though.


Thanks. This is a concept I've wanted to pursue for a long, long time. I've always wanted to do something that breaks the mold, something far different and original.



> If you get going and need some talent, give me a call. My offence is heavily influenced by Sakuraba and Daijiro Matsui.


I'll keep you in mind. Good talent is really hard to find.



Post-Modern Devil said:


> I personally beleive a HUGE aspect behind the backlash against the whole fat/skinny thing in this thread is the complete lack of perspective motivated by the worldview enforced by the WWE and WWE fanboys. These posters I feel speak as if they are indy fans defending talented guys like Kaval, Davey Richards, Eddie Edwards, El Generico, Alex Shelley, Austin Aries, CM Punk, and Daniel Bryan from criticism for not being the size of guys like Batista, Triple H, Sheamus, Mason Ryan, and other wrestlers with the prototypical WWE build whereas I assume the OP is primarily talking about the dreck that populates the unknown indy feds.


I think you totally hit the nail on the head. Maybe a lot of the brickbats being hurled my way are the result of misunderstanding my point. So let's clear that up, once and for all. 

This, for example, is an example of a guy with a physique I consider 100% athletic and legit:










This, on the other hand, is _not_ legit and what I'm talking about in these posts:












lewieG said:


> All I was saying, is that OP might get the positive response to his posts that he's looking for if he didn't attack and insult everyone who slightly disagrees with him.


Well, now, in my own defense, I think your claim that I "attack and insult everyone who slightly disagrees with me" is a bit of an exaggeration. I invite you to go back and re-read the thread and see how I treat folks who disagree in an intelligent and civil manner. Now those other chuckleheads? Well, hey, you just gotta have some fun with them!

Now time for the update. Remember our friend Ace Danielson from the most recent installment? You know, the guy with the weird, deflated boombox tattoo on his stomach? You know, this guy:










Well, it's been brought to my attention by a reader on Facebook that ol' Ace is just emulating Travis Barker, the drummer from the horrible band Blink 182:










Notice the boombox tattoo! Granted, Travis Barker hired a professional to do his, but it's clear our buddy Ace was just emulating his skin-and-bones hero when he got his copycat boombox tattoo from that discount tattoo shop.

You know, I understand the concept of emulating people you admire and all, but do you have to make your emulation so...permanent?

This actually serves as an excellent segue to the next installment of the series on why fans don't go to indie shows: Copycatting! That's up next, so stay tuned!


----------



## smokinglizard

The "Top 50 Reasons" is back! Celebrate good times, come on! Let's celebrate...it's all right! Here we go:

We all know this guy:










He's Steve Borden, better known as Sting.

If someone were ever to open up an indie pro wrestling hall of fame, there should be a statue of this guy at the center of it. Why, you ask? After all, the superstar Sting never spent much time in the indies, right? Even so, he's sort of a hero to indie pro wrestling...a role model, of sorts.

How?

Because he's the quintessential copycatter.

And, as you will discover in this installment of the _Top 50 Reasons_, indie pro wrestling is rife with copycatting. It's so bad, in fact, it's become the de facto order of operations in the "business."

First, let's discuss the great and (sadly) still active Steve Borden. First, the guy's name is a straight up ripoff of the stage name used by the sixteen-time Grammy Award winning musician, Gordon Sumner, aka Sting of the phenomenal rock band The Police. So that's bad enough. But then in the middle 1990s, the movie "The Crow," starring Brandon Lee, became a box office smash hit. In the movie, Brandon Lee depicts an undead, vengeance-seeking stalker who dresses up all in black, paints his face white, and carries a crow on his shoulder.

Here's a great picture:










Evidently our copycatting hero Sting loved this movie, as he immediately shed his traditional look and started coming down to the ring looking like this:










Look familiar? There were actually episodes of Nitro that showed the "Icon" lurking in the rafters with a live crow on his shoulder. A complete shameless, 100% ripoff.

But it doesn't end there! You see, Mr. Borden evidently realized that the movie "The Crow" had, you know, fallen out of the limelight and wasn't quite a phenomenon anymore. In fact, a lot of younger fans today haven't even seen that movie. So it was time to update the persona. Gotta keep things fresh. Ah, and wouldn't you just know it? A new Batman movie had just come out featuring Heath Ledger as Batman's arch nemesis, The Joker. Everyone was raving about that movie and Mr. Ledger's performance, so voila! Mr. Borden delivered us this:










Keep in mind this is a grown man with a wife and kids in the picture above.

Ordinarily movie studios and comic book publishers would sue for copyright infringement over crap like this, but I guess since pro wrestling is viewed as such an absurd joke, they don't bother.

You know, I bet a lot of fans of this series must read all this and think, "Damn, this guy Norm rips wrestling apart. Why does he still like it?"

Damn good question.

Hey you remember that old TV show "Dallas"? You know, the one starring Larry Hagman as the nefarious JR Ewing? This guy:










If you're under the age of 30, you may not be familiar with this show, but it was the #1 show on TV for about five years straight in the early 80s. I recently remembered this show because Ted Turner is rebooting it as a new series for his TNT network. I was too young to understand the original "Dallas" when it was in first run in the early 80s, so I thought to myself, "Hey, that was a really, really popular show back then. Millions upon millions of people loved it. I should check it out." Which I did. On the Internet. Everything's available on the Internet these days.

Well you know what? "Dallas" was a pretty stupid show. I mean, actually, like, really stupid. Stupid angles, gaping plot holes, ridiculous situations, terrible continuity, awful acting, stilted dialogue...

I guess people just like really stupid stuff.

And I guess that's why Steve Borden gets away with his awful impersonations of Heath Ledger.

Now don't get me wrong -- Larry Hagman is an off-the-charts actor, and the JR Ewing character was awesome. But that's all there was to the show. He carried the whole thing, kind of like how Ric Flair carried Jim Crockett's NWA promotion.

Anyway, the point is, copycatting is not just common in indie pro wrestling -- it's par for the course. Behold:










Above we have a terrible Ultimate Warrior. Nice hair, forty-something-year-old old dude...










...and a couple of dudes who call themselves "The ******* Mafia"...










...a really embarrassing Crow...or Sting...or...whatever...










...and an awful Doink posing with -- surprise! -- a skinny guy. You know, how many flippin' Doinks are there, anyway? I mean, that wasn't even a good gimmick when Matt Bourne was doing it in the WWF, so why are so many nitwits doing it in the indies?!

Bottom line: Copycatting is stupid. It's unoriginal and imbecilic. Think of something original, for crying out loud. And when fans see things this stupid, they turn their noses up in disgust and leave, never to return. 

Umm...wait -- did I just contradict myself?



> I guess people just like really stupid stuff.


Dammit! I did.


----------



## Neutronic

It's funny because a lot of legends in wrestling copied their gimmicks (Flair, Hogan, Graham I could go on all day).

In reality there aren't many gimmicks left people haven't done to death.

Copying a gimmick is fine, as long as you make it your own.


----------



## USAUSA1

I kind of like copy catting compare to the bland guys with no personality. Jay Lethal as Black Machismo is more over than regular Jay Lethal for a reason.


----------



## Neutronic

Jay was over as hell during his feud with Flair though, shame TNA didnt put the belt on him and made him feud with Robbie E


----------



## USAUSA1

Neutronic said:


> Jay was over as hell during his feud with Flair though, shame TNA didnt put the belt on him and made him feud with Robbie E


But I think overall, Black Machismo brought the best out of him as an entertainer and Macho Man love his gimmick and gave him his approval. In lucha libre and even puro, having a gimmick past down to you is a sign of respect.

Jay Lethal was over during his feud with Flair because he was COPYING FLAIR. That's his niche and he's really good at it. 

I understand where the poster coming from with the stupid fake doinks,etc. They have to go.


----------



## ultimogaijin

I don't understand your point about Sting.

Sting is a character, a character that wears contemporary face paint to appeal to a wider audience. It makes the audience connect with him and the product he's promoting (WCW/TNA). If he still had 'The Crow' facepaint now, would the younger generation get the reference? Hell no.

I don't understand what's wrong with it. 

"Keep in mind this is a grown man with a wife and kids in the picture above" No, that's Sting. A character portrayed by Steve Borden. It's acting, he's an actor portraying a character. It'd be like sending Gerard Butler to prison because his character, Clyde Shelton, that he portrays in Law Abiding Citizen was murdering people.

I realise sometimes there's a thin line separating kayfabe but that point about Sting that took up half your post is pretty much moot.


----------



## THECHAMPION

Lethal is a little different than any random Doink on an indy show.

He's acknowledging what he's doing and it's played for comedy.

It makes it very different. At least in my opinion.


----------



## wee bru

Depends what you mean by copycatting i suppose. True originality is rare. the vast majority of wrestlers have taken mannerisms, moves, finishers, characters etc from everyone they watched growing up or whoever they trained with. Just as angles get reused and recycled, so do characters.

As Albert Einstein put it, The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources. Bryan Daniel Bryan Danielson wears the same outfit as William Regal. Flair isn't the original nature boy. People try and replicate the successful aspects of other wrestlers, and rightly so. Even Jeff Hardy could be called a Sting knockoff under your conditions. 

Is Scott Hall to be criticised because Razor Ramon was Tony Montana?

Don't forget that the last two big eras in wrestling both caught on to the music and film trends at the time, the rock and Wrestling era firstly, then the Attitude era. Wrestling success and pop culture go hand in hand. 

But anyway, back to the indies. They sound a terrible place in the states. I have seen nothing like what you describe in the UK. Sure, people take aspects of other characters, but they make them part of their character. Hell, when i'm trained i definitely want to spit Green Mist. Does that make me a Muta/tajiri knockoff? 

I would agree with the Doink the Clown point, but the third doink (Ray Liccachelli) is my girlfriend's dad's landlord in New Jersey. I also watched him beat Jeff Jarrett in Aberdeen in 1994.


----------



## Genking48

It's funny how Davey Richards is being mentioned as someone 100% athletic and legit granted he probably is that, but I just thinks it's funny because as far as I know many fans seem to hate his guts.


----------



## Spike

I think you should refine your point to 'copycatting _badly_'. When it's done badly it's horrific. But Sting, one of the most successful gimmicks of the 90s, stupid? Nah.


----------



## reDREDD

I dislike Sting, Steve Borden, and the Sting character, but I feel I should point this out. He didnt steal the name Sting, infact, the other Sting pays Steve Borden royalties to use the name


----------



## THECHAMPION

redeadening said:


> I dislike Sting, Steve Borden, and the Sting character, but I feel I should point this out. He didnt steal the name Sting, infact, the other Sting pays Steve Borden royalties to use the name


Are you sure about that? Sting the musician debuted in 1977.

Sting the wrestler debuted in 1985.


----------



## wee bru

redeadening said:


> I dislike Sting, Steve Borden, and the Sting character, but I feel I should point this out. He didnt steal the name Sting, infact, the other Sting pays Steve Borden royalties to use the name


I remember this being a myth, that Sting the wrestler trademarked the name before Sting the Singer did (as in he didn't trademark it). 

Most likely Bullshit though. Got a source mate?


----------



## Rah

I've seen it both on TVTropes and Wikipedia (the latter obviously being very incredible in being truthful).


> An interesting reverse is the case of one of WCW main faces Sting, Steve Borden had actually purchased the trademark before the more widely known singer had. This means that every performance the singer gives he has to pay a royalty to Borden for use of the name (Steve isn't a dick about it and its apparently a token amount like 1$)


It, however, does give weight to why Sting (the singer) couldn't shut down sting.com in the same vein Madonna had taken rights to madonnna.com, as he didn't hold a trademark on the name like Madonna did. Though one could, quite rightly, argue the commonness of the word 'sting' and that =Sting=, being a gamer, was quite entitled to his online use of the word purely because of the commonness of the name as well as the fact that he had created an online persona unlike the singer.


----------



## smokinglizard

It's time for fun with comments!



Adamwingie said:


> I don't understand your point about Sting.
> 
> Sting is a character, a character that wears contemporary face paint to appeal to a wider audience. It makes the audience connect with him and the product he's promoting (WCW/TNA). If he still had 'The Crow' facepaint now, would the younger generation get the reference? Hell no.
> 
> I don't understand what's wrong with it.
> 
> "Keep in mind this is a grown man with a wife and kids in the picture above" No, that's Sting. A character portrayed by Steve Borden. It's acting, he's an actor portraying a character. It'd be like sending Gerard Butler to prison because his character, Clyde Shelton, that he portrays in Law Abiding Citizen was murdering people.
> 
> I realise sometimes there's a thin line separating kayfabe but that point about Sting that took up half your post is pretty much moot.


The point of the post is that it's not a good idea for the indies to copycat. Sting is a copycatter, so the point, as an example, is relevant.

I'm certainly not arguing that Sting wasn't popular and that he didn't draw. That's not at issue. But that doesn't change the fact that he's a copycatter. If you really examine the guy's career, he got over -- and I mean over like Superman leaping over tall buildings over -- through his original "Stinger" persona. That one with the spiked blond hair, the glittery ring jackets, and the colorful facepaint designs. Under that gimmick he approached Hulkster status.

Once he did that, he could do almost anything else and still be over. He ripped off The Crow and fans turned a blind eye because, well, hey, he's Sting. It's a blatant copycat, but it was a superstar doing the copycatting, so he got away with it.



> "Keep in mind this is a grown man with a wife and kids in the picture above" No, that's Sting. A character portrayed by Steve Borden. It's acting, he's an actor portraying a character. It'd be like sending Gerard Butler to prison because his character, Clyde Shelton, that he portrays in Law Abiding Citizen was murdering people.


No, it's a grown man with a wife and kids making an idiot of himself. Just look at him. Look at that picture. I'm embarrassed for him. And when Gerard Butler portrays Clyde Shelton, he's portraying an original character made for _him_. Sting, on the other hand, is parroting -- badly -- Heath Ledger. Big difference.

Huge difference.

Colossal difference.

Titanic difference.



THECHAMPION said:


> Lethal is a little different than any random Doink on an indy show.
> 
> He's acknowledging what he's doing and it's played for comedy.
> 
> It makes it very different. At least in my opinion.


Agree. Very good point. Lethal's act is a tongue-in-cheek caricature of Savage's gimmick deliberately intended to be silly on purpose. Big difference. Huge difference. Titanic difference.

Cat is to animal as tree is to __________

Come on, people -- what's the right answer? Fill in the blank! You can do it!

No, sorry, the right answer isn't "bird." Try again.



wee bru said:


> Depends what you mean by copycatting i suppose. True originality is rare. the vast majority of wrestlers have taken mannerisms, moves, finishers, characters etc from everyone they watched growing up or whoever they trained with. Just as angles get reused and recycled, so do characters.
> 
> As Albert Einstein put it, The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources. Bryan Daniel Bryan Danielson wears the same outfit as William Regal. Flair isn't the original nature boy. People try and replicate the successful aspects of other wrestlers, and rightly so. Even Jeff Hardy could be called a Sting knockoff under your conditions.
> 
> Is Scott Hall to be criticised because Razor Ramon was Tony Montana?


Well, you make a good point, and let's be clear: There's a titanic difference between looking for inspiration and copycatting.

Back in the day, Dusty Rhodes used to watch old Western movies for ideas for angles. That's looking for inspiration, not copycatting. Dressing up as Doink and then _calling yourself_ Doink is copycatting.

Big difference.

Huge difference...ah, you know the drill.



> Even Jeff Hardy could be called a Sting knockoff under your conditions.


That's a straw man. I never said that or implied it.




Tinkerbell said:


> It's funny how Davey Richards is being mentioned as someone 100% athletic and legit granted he probably is that, but I just thinks it's funny because as far as I know many fans seem to hate his guts.


Well you know, Tinkerbell, perhaps you're new to pro wrestling and are just figuring it out? But the desired end state for any wrestler is for the fans to either love you or hate your guts. If fans hate your guts, you're succeeding.

Duh.

And no, the answer isn't "lumber."



Mr Deschanel said:


> I remember this being a myth, that Sting the wrestler trademarked the name before Sting the Singer did (as in he didn't trademark it).
> 
> Most likely Bullshit though. Got a source mate?


It is bullshit. According to IMDB, Steve Borden trademarked the name "Sting" in the US specifically _*for use in pro wrestling*_. Sting, the singer, is not a pro wrestler, so he's free to use his moniker any time he wants without paying Borden $1 or $10,000 or whatever the silly urban legend states.


----------



## jawbreaker

Nah, Richards is a face and the company he works for promotes him (entirely seriously) as the best wrestler in the world, and lots of people think he sucks and is ruining wrestling.


----------



## Genking48

Really!, cause it seems to me like Richards is getting "X-Pac heat" and is portrayed as a face, yet he's still hated by sooo many fans, and I wouldn't think that is "succeeding"


----------



## smokinglizard

jawbreaker said:


> Nah, Richards is a face and the company he works for promotes him (entirely seriously) as the best wrestler in the world, and lots of people think he sucks and is ruining wrestling.


People say the same very thing about Cena, yet the events Cena headlines make money hand over fist. Wrestlemania 23 featured Cena vs. Michaels in the main event. That show had 1.2 million buys, the highest buyrate in Wrestlemania history. Was it all Cena? No, of course not. But that said, it's very difficult to argue with success.

It makes absolutely no difference whether you're booked as a face or a heel. The key is that fans have to love you or hate you. If you're a baby and all the smarks despise you, that's awesome. It's great for ticket sales and viewership.

A wrestler is a failure in wrestling when fans are indifferent about him and pay no attention.



> ...and lots of people think he sucks and is ruining wrestling.


It's very difficult for a ROH wrestler to "ruin wrestling." It's a lot like saying the mayor of Walla Walla, Washington is ruining the United States.


----------



## dezpool

I can certainly see the point people are making that copying has existed in wrestling for a long time and people have been very successful doing it. It doesn't really bother me much, honestly. But like anything else, when it's done right, people usually embrace it. I didn't care that Razor Ramon was doing his best to copy Tony Montana in his promos, or that Ric Flair adopted and still uses the nickname, gimmick, and strut from "Nature Boy" Buddy Rogers.

In a weird way, this topic sort of reminds me of when ROH seemed to have paralleled Jerry Lynn and the Randy "The Ram" character.


----------



## smokinglizard

dezpool said:


> I can certainly see the point people are making that copying has existed in wrestling for a long time and people have been very successful doing it. It doesn't really bother me much, honestly. But like anything else, when it's done right, people usually embrace it. I didn't care that Razor Ramon was doing his best to copy Tony Montana in his promos, or that Ric Flair adopted and still uses the nickname, gimmick, and strut from "Nature Boy" Buddy Rogers.
> 
> In a weird way, this topic sort of reminds me of when ROH seemed to have paralleled Jerry Lynn and the Randy "The Ram" character.


Wow. You guys are _*still*_ not comprehending the point.


----------



## wee bru

Have you noticed that we don't comprehend most of your points? 

Maybe you aren't coming across clearly enough.


----------



## USAUSA1

I think people are taking you too LITERALLY. But at the same time, using Sting was a bad example. Doink would of been fine enough to get your point across.


----------



## chris2038

wee bru said:


> Have you noticed that we don't comprehend most of your points?
> 
> Maybe you aren't coming across clearly enough.


Dude, aren't you undergoing training right now???

If so, and you aspire to be a wrestler, then these posts should come to you as second nature. 

They should really come as second nature to anyone with half a brain, indy fan or not.

Summary - Sting copied "hollywood" gimmicks for a long time. Because of that, indy wrestlers think its okay to do the same. Fans come to shows, watch these uncreative gimmicks play out, and ultimately lose interest AND look down on the industry for allowing such REDUNDANT copycat garbage to fly. 

The fix - be creative, do something original that fans haven't seen yet.


----------



## wee bru

chris2038 said:


> Dude, aren't you undergoing training right now???
> 
> If so, and you aspire to be a wrestler, then these posts should come to you as second nature.
> 
> They should really come as second nature to anyone with half a brain, indy fan or not.
> 
> Summary - Sting copied "hollywood" gimmicks for a long time. Because of that, indy wrestlers think its okay to do the same. Fans come to shows, watch these uncreative gimmicks play out, and ultimately lose interest AND look down on the industry for allowing such REDUNDANT copycat garbage to fly.
> 
> The fix - be creative, do something original that fans haven't seen yet.


*Oh, i agree with that point, most definitely. I'm just pointing out that the last few points have caused a lot of debate and in the OP's words have not been comprehended. Seeing as this keeps happening, maybe the OP is not making his points clearly enough.* 

As i say, i see great originality in UK wrestling. I don't think i've ever come across an actual copycat. Although, i have seen a match a few years ago that was a move for move copy of the Savage vs Steamboat WM match. It was a really good match though. 

And yes, i am in training. I don't plan to be completely original. I shall of course be my own character (i have several ideas but a wise man once told me to keep them to myself until ready to use them or else i might lose them), but i definitely want to show my influences. People will be able to work out who i watched and liked as a child. 

I guess my main problem with this thread is that i never see the things that the OP talks about. The UK scene is just totally different from what he describes. I'd love to show him Professional British Wrestling the next two nights in Greenock and Glasgow, or Insane Championship Wrestling next month at the Garage nightclub (that promotion in particular deserves to be watched by everyone. It is so inventive, well aimed, clever - its wrestling for adults). 

*Maybe i just don't have a good enough grasp of the indies that the OP is trying to fix. *


----------



## Rah

Is it not simply because wrestling is a much smaller industry in Britain that the few promotions that are running do it right as to attract a good enough crowd to remain open?

Wrestling in America is at the point where every Tom, Dick or Harry thinks he can open a wrestling promotion and succeed. Hell, it's not even the "smaller" promotions that suffer from these points, either. Just watch CZW Deja Vu, and you'll notice OP's point about masking tape fetishes.

Actually, rather, just watch Botchamania. You'll see everything he's covered in this thread.


----------



## wee bru

Rah said:


> Is it not simply because wrestling is a much smaller industry in Britain that the few promotions that are running do it right as to attract a good enough crowd to remain open?
> 
> Wrestling in America is at the point where every Tom, Dick or Harry thinks he can open a wrestling promotion and succeed. Hell, it's not even the "smaller" promotions that suffer from these points, either. Just watch CZW Deja Vu, and you'll notice OP's point about masking tape fetishes.
> 
> Actually, rather, just watch Botchamania. You'll see everything he's covered in this thread.


I would argue the opposite. I believe, per head of the population, that the UK has far more promotions running shows than the USA does. Take Scotland for example, a country with a population of just 5 million. We have about 7 promotions running shows usually on a bi weekly or monthly schedule. This weekend, within an hour of my house there will be four different shows that i can attend. Last weekend i went to two. Most draw healthy crowds in the low hundreds, PBW, which is one of the larger ones, is hosting a show at the Pavillion theatre (which is quite a big deal). ICW draws 500 sellouts to a nightclub in glasgow for more ECW style matches, and has a tv deal. 

Yeah, i'm always shocked when i watch Botchamania. OK, they are just showing the botches and i'm sure that these promotions sometimes put on good matches. But CZW is the botchiest shit i've ever seen. I've never seen a show like that in the UK, even when you go to a training show for the newer guys. You would never see that amount of botches, basic mistakes that mean you haven't been properly trained. Or the people wrestling in high school gyms with about 15 fans. 

I believe its down to the way uk promotions are structured. Firstly, you won't find one that doesn't have a reputable trainer. All of the trainers and promoters know each other, and it seems to work more like a loose collective. I don't think you'd really be able to set up without experience or their help. Most promotions are based around a training school, and make most of their money through training. Nobody is getting into a ring before they are ready. Talent is shared between promotions, with the top guys travelling all over Britain (obviously easier to do here with the smaller distances involved.). 

I also like that we have a strong collection of wrestling minds to draw on, and they seem to want to move the industry as a whole in the same direction. Alex Shane, a wrestler and promoter who promoted TNA's first UK tour, has publishes a guide to prowrestling and is setting up a 'sanctioning body' for wrestling in the UK, to standardise training and make sure minimum standards are upheld. Some of the concepts he talks about for pro wrestling psychology and match building are really enlightening (although i reject the 7 steps approach altogether).


----------



## Killswitch Stunner

I doubt there's 50 good reasons. I can think of 3:

1. No stars.

2. Cheap venues.

3. Horrible promos.


----------



## Certified G

wee bru said:


> Yeah, i'm always shocked when i watch Botchamania. OK, they are just showing the botches and i'm sure that these promotions sometimes put on good matches. *But CZW is the botchiest shit i've ever seen.* I've never seen a show like that in the UK, even when you go to a training show for the newer guys. You would never see that amount of botches, basic mistakes that mean you haven't been properly trained. Or the people wrestling in high school gyms with about 15 fans.


It's seems you are basing your opinion of CZW completely on what you see in Botchamania which imo isn't fair. You know about 90% of their shows are in the same building, that's why it might seem they botch 10 times on every single show (because you always see The Arena)..


----------



## wee bru

The Corre said:


> It's seems you are basing your opinion of CZW completely on what you see in Botchamania which imo isn't fair. You know about 90% of their shows are in the same building, that's why it might seem they botch 10 times on every single show (because you always see The Arena)..


I actually acknowleged that in my post, that i am basing it entirely on what i see on botchamania, which isn't fair. I said i bet these orgs do put on good matches. In fact, i've seen several good CZW matches (Sami Callighan is the man, also Jon Moxley). However, there are also terrible matches with guys who clearly aren't trained to a high enough level. I understand that type of wrestling is more prone to botches than a more traditional style, but still. They produce a shit tonne of botchamania worthy moments.

I also have in the past got confused when botchamania switches to IWA and i don't realise it.


----------



## ultimogaijin

smokinglizard said:


> No, it's a grown man with a wife and kids making an idiot of himself. Just look at him. Look at that picture. I'm embarrassed for him. And when Gerard Butler portrays Clyde Shelton, he's portraying an original character made for _him_. Sting, on the other hand, is parroting -- badly -- Heath Ledger. Big difference.
> 
> Huge difference.
> 
> Colossal difference.
> 
> Titanic difference.


You are a fool. You've convinced me to not listen to you.

You don't know the difference between a character and a person. It's amazing to see someone buried so deep in kayfabe. It's still real to you, damnit.


----------



## smokinglizard

wee bru said:


> Have you noticed that we don't comprehend most of your points?
> 
> Maybe you aren't coming across clearly enough.


I don't know how in the world _anyone_ could be any clearer. If what you're saying is true, why is it Chris has comprehended every single point in every single post? See here:



chris2038 said:


> Summary - Sting copied "hollywood" gimmicks for a long time. Because of that, indy wrestlers think its okay to do the same. Fans come to shows, watch these uncreative gimmicks play out, and ultimately lose interest AND look down on the industry for allowing such REDUNDANT copycat garbage to fly.
> 
> The fix - be creative, do something original that fans haven't seen yet.


100% correct! _Exactly_ the point of the post. 

Now, he may not _agree_ with the point I'm trying to make, but he _comprehends_ what I'm writing. It's really not that difficult.

In your case, I think there might be a situation where you don't see the things that I write about because the wrestling scene is so different in the UK than it is here in the US, so you just don't see where I'm going.

These other chuckleheads just don't get it. They argue against points I never even made. Like this guy:



Adamwingie said:


> You are a fool. You've convinced me to not listen to you.
> 
> You don't know the difference between a character and a person. It's amazing to see someone buried so deep in kayfabe. It's still real to you, damnit.


He doesn't even come close to getting the point. What do I have to do, spell it out? He thinks I think that Sting and Steve Borden are one and the same. He doesn't understand that a grown man -- wrestler, actor, or whatever -- can make a fool out of himself by accepting and in Sting's case -- creating -- silly roles. I mean, really, how hard is that to understand? Instead this guy thinks I'm trapped in kayfabe?!?

Whuuuuuuuut?!?

I just hope these guys a) don't vote and b) don't drive.

So, guys, let me help you out. First, go to Amazon and pick up a copy of my book, _Fixing the Indies._ And while you're there, pick up a copy of this:


----------



## USAUSA1

If the UK indies was so good, we would hear more about them. But they probably the same as the US.


----------



## Daesim

I have last night's smackdown on DVR. I had it playing and have my laptop on my recliner, to do a little browsing. I stumbled on this thread, and have been absorbed for the last two hours. I don't know how Smackdown ended, I was too busy laughing. I never read every post in a 20+ thread. It's an aggravation, and you can usually get the gist of an idea by reading the last two pages. With this thread however, I have gleefully wadded through the muck. This is the best thread I have ever read on a wrestling forum. It has insight and hilarity. It has common sense versus stubborn pride. It has my attention.

I anticipate reading the remaining reasons why fans don't go to Indy shows, as well as the outraged responses of the ( small minority of posters) people determined to put themselves over in this forum by depicting the Author as an ignorant troll. It's genuine anger too, which is mesmerizing to observe. 

This thread about wrestling is better than wrestling. 5/5


----------



## nevereveragainu

USAUSA1 said:


> If the UK indies was so good, we would hear more about them. But they probably the same as the US.


no uk indy fed has a tv show nor do any perform in any "arenas", that is why they dont get a mention dispite its advances since Brtitish Revival back in 2001

ASW is the biggest stage we have yet they are a travelling circus, no storylines or continuity, just praying on the tastes of the locals they perform in front of, complete with xenophobia towards the USa


----------



## wee bru

nevereveragainu said:


> no uk indy fed has a tv show nor do any perform in any "arenas", that is why they dont get a mention dispite its advances since Brtitish Revival back in 2001
> 
> ASW is the biggest stage we have yet they are a travelling circus, no storylines or continuity, just praying on the tastes of the locals they perform in front of, complete with xenophobia towards the USa


Insane Championship Wrestling, Sky Channel 219.

Also, the other guy said he doesn't hear anything about UK indies. Well i'm telling him just now. This weekend, Professional British Wrestling from Scotland first drew 450 fans on Saturday, then 1000+ for a show at the Glasgow Pavillion Theatre, with 900 presold tickets.


----------



## nevereveragainu

wee bru said:


> Insane Championship Wrestling, Sky Channel 219.
> 
> Also, the other guy said he doesn't hear anything about UK indies. Well i'm telling him just now. This weekend, Professional British Wrestling from Scotland first drew 450 fans on Saturday, then 1000+ for a show at the Glasgow Pavillion Theatre, with 900 presold tickets.








tv deal or not, no arena shows, takes two to tango in that regard

1000? big whop, asw gets 1800-2000 a year at butlins


----------



## wee bru

Rather a harsh response. I was just pointing out that the state of wrestling in the UK is rather healthy at an independent regional level. A crowd of 1083, a near sell out of a decent sized theatre, combined with the national (Scotland) press coverage that it recieved is an excellent start. I don't think it will be long before there is an org running shows across the UK. 

My point was that you are wrong, there is a group in the UK with a tv deal.


----------



## nevereveragainu

wee bru said:


> Rather a harsh response. I was just pointing out that the state of wrestling in the UK is rather healthy at an independent regional level. A crowd of 1083, a near sell out of a decent sized theatre, combined with the national (Scotland) press coverage that it recieved is an excellent start. I don't think it will be long before there is an org running shows across the UK.
> 
> My point was that you are wrong, there is a group in the UK with a tv deal.


a couple little feds got maybe 5 eps on random channels on SKY all of which amounted to nothing so whats the used with technicalities

just so you know I FREAKING HATE ASW Big Time American Slam OR WHATEVER THE HECK THAT HACK DIXON CALLS HIS SHOW

also,  THEY GOT NATIONAL PRESS?!


----------



## smokinglizard

Do you know what time it is?! Do you know what time?! It's "Top 50 Reasons" time, starting with Fun with Comments!



Daesim said:


> I have last night's smackdown on DVR. I had it playing and have my laptop on my recliner, to do a little browsing. I stumbled on this thread, and have been absorbed for the last two hours. I don't know how Smackdown ended, I was too busy laughing. I never read every post in a 20+ thread. It's an aggravation, and you can usually get the gist of an idea by reading the last two pages. With this thread however, I have gleefully wadded through the muck. This is the best thread I have ever read on a wrestling forum. It has insight and hilarity. It has common sense versus stubborn pride. It has my attention.
> 
> I anticipate reading the remaining reasons why fans don't go to Indy shows, as well as the outraged responses of the ( small minority of posters) people determined to put themselves over in this forum by depicting the Author as an ignorant troll. It's genuine anger too, which is mesmerizing to observe.
> 
> This thread about wrestling is better than wrestling. 5/5


Thank you! And welcome to the party! I'm so glad someone else gets it because I was beginning to worry that either I was a) losing my mind or b) losing all faith in humankind. Thanks for reading along, and stick around -- the best is still yet to come.




wee bru said:


> I was just pointing out that the state of wrestling in the UK is rather healthy at an independent regional level. A crowd of 1083, a near sell out of a decent sized theatre, combined with the national (Scotland) press coverage that it recieved is an excellent start. I don't think it will be long before there is an org running shows across the UK.
> 
> My point was that you are wrong, there is a group in the UK with a tv deal.


Who the hell cares?! Haven't you guys admitted to yourselves yet that nothing important happens in Europe anymore? I mean, if it were, like, 1612, OK, fine, yes, everything of consequence would be happening in Europe. But that was 400 years ago. Now, America is where it's at. Want to do something important? Come to America!

Want to pay a tax to watch TV? Move to Europe!

I mean, look at this guy:










Who's going to take you seriously when the men of your country look like this? Stop polluting my thread with this drivel. Do something more constructive -- like spending your British money on my book!


*Now enough with that midway stuff -- on with the big show! It's time for REASON #31: Disloyal women.*

So you think you know a lot about wrestling, eh? Well we'll see about that.

So you can recite the NWA title lineage all the way back to Orville Brown by heart.

That's nothing.

So you say you can name every wrestler Curt Hennig defended the AWA title against.

Big deal.

It's time for a _real_ test. Let's _really_ find out just how knowledgeable you are. Ready?

Here's the test. Consider the following scenario: Take any pro wrestler. Give him a female ally. Doesn't matter what role she fills -- she can be his manager, valet, wife, cheerleader, or whatever. Which of the following will most certainly happen:

a) The female will turn against her man
b) The female will align herself with her man's #1 enemy
c) The wrestler will express "shock" over how he was betrayed
d) You will read this, laugh, and then go buy a copy of Norm's new book, _Fixing the Indies_, available through Amazon and Barnes and Noble, because it's funny, too

The answer, of course, is all of the above. So to complete item d), I recommend Amazon because I get a bigger cut.

Ha ha...kidding!

Not.

Anyway, what were we talking about? Oh yeah! That really idiotic, horribly overused, unoriginal angle that negatively stereotypes women.

That.

Oh, boy...here we go. All the dingbats here on this board are going to start sending me scathing messages about how pro wrestling doesn't stereotype anyone and how they _love_ this angle and how I'm an idiot for saying that women aren't pretty.

(If you got that last part, congratulations for a) paying attention, b) understanding inside humor, and c) having an IQ greater than 100. We smart people should band together and form a club or something.)

Anyway, what were we talking about? Oh yeah! How fat guys and and skinny guys don't belong in pro...

Oh, wait, no, no, wait. That's not right.

This:










OK, _now_ I'm back on topic!

You know, shouldn't we like, you know, warn the wrestler who owns that belt she's holding that this sinister, vile creature known as "female" is going to eventually interfere in one of his matches, allowing his arch nemesis to win that beautiful golden, jewel-encrusted title away from him? We can send him an email. It would go something like this:



> Dear, [insert naive wrestler's name here],
> 
> We are writing you this message to inform you that that beautiful thing called "female" that you believe is your ally is really no ally at all. You see, she has female genitalia, which means she is destined to betray you, hurt you, cheat on you, and align herself with either a) your arch enemy or b) your best friend. It's destiny, sir. She will most likely trip you while you are running the ropes in a big match, causing you to fall face first onto a very soft polyfoam mat and suffer an elbow dropped onto the back of your head that somehow will cause you to be pinned, even though you ordinarily kick out after guys repeatedly drop elbows onto your head from the tops of ladders.
> 
> Please, do yourself a favor and sever ties with this demonic creature before it's too late!!!!!!


We'd definitely have to add all those exclamation points because one just wouldn't be enough.

You know, I just realized this guy is doubly doomed because not only is she female, she's also smokin' hot. And we all know what the loyalty percentage for smokin' hot females in pro wrestling is: 0.0%. Maybe we should add even more exclamation points to, you know, really drive the message home.

Now, in fairness, whoever this poor naive guy is, we do have to give him a pass. Even the smartest guy on earth could be duped by this shifty-but-gorgeous medusa. I bet Eve was smokin' hot, too. I mean, if you were Adam and a chick like the one in the picture above wearing nothing but some leopard print fig leaves brought you an apple, wouldn't you eat it? I know I would. I'd eat a basketball if she asked me to.

Man, I sure hope my wife isn't reading this.

Anyway, so we all agree that this guy should get a pass for trusting the demon called "woman" and losing his title. But now for 99.9% of the rest of the guys in the indies with female "allies"?

No pass for them.

You know, I was thinking the other day that it's a good thing wrestling is fake, because a lot of guys I write about live in my area, and I bet some of them really would like to kick my ass. But I'm not worried, though. After all, what are they going to do, hurricanrana me?

Oh, wait! I almost forgot! I've been told recently that a lot of readers of this thread aren't "getting" the point behind each of my posts because I'm not writing clearly enough. 

I'm not making this up. You know, it's sad that my niece completely and easily gets everything I've written in this thread without any explanation at all, but then guys here suffer from brain vapor lock. 

And my niece is, you know, nine.

To be fair, though, she is in the advanced classes.

Oh, that made me just realize something -- my nine-year-old niece is going to read this...maybe I should erase that part about me eating the basketball.

Ah, well.

Anyway, so since it was so graciously brought to my attention that I might not be writing clearly enough, I've resolved to work on that. So for the benefit of those loyal readers out there who tend to struggle with such complex notions as prepositions, punctuation, and conjugation, let me summarize the point I've been making up to this point. I don't want you guys to fall behind the rest of the class:








 +







= DANGER
Understood? Pretty girl + wrestler = danger for wrestler. See, I'm making a joke by implying that wrestlers should already know this because booking in the indies is so awful and uncreative, it happens so freque...

...oh, nevermind...just keep calling me an idiot.

BOTTOM LINE: Tired, hackneyed angles like a girl turning against her wrestler are so ridiculously overused and predictable, no one could possibly find them entertaining. After all, if you've already seen something a zillion times already, how could it possibly be? Furthermore, this entire angle just plays on an old, ugly stereotype that holds that women are nothing but disloyal, conniving, opportunistic femme fatales who use their sexuality and their wiles to manipulate and deceive men.

Uh...oh...uh...umm...wait a minute...


----------



## USAUSA1

Have no issue with disloyal women. Some things in wrestling will never change. Stephanie Mcmahon turning on Test and setting up a historic HHH run is an example of a good disloyal women angle. If done right, people will care.


----------



## Kingleviathan

smokinglizard said:


> Who the hell cares?! Haven't you guys admitted to yourselves yet that nothing important happens in Europe anymore? I mean, if it were, like, 1612, OK, fine, yes, everything of consequence would be happening in Europe. But that was 400 years ago. Now, America is where it's at. Want to do something important? Come to America!
> 
> Want to pay a tax to watch TV? Move to Europe!


Well I have to admit the American arrogance still existing is impressive, especially since you live a country with a massive debt to a large amount of other countries and a bad economy.

Also, nothing imporatant happens in Europe anymore, what about the Olympic Games?


----------



## wee bru

I'M OUT

This is a ridiculous thread. Your problems with the indies are all entirely superficial things that aboslutely anyone could point out, yet you try and act like you are coming from some position of superior knowledge? You make these points which at first seem quite strong, then back out of them with your little escape clauses. For instance, the fat and thin wrestlers, you stated your problem with them very strongly, then backed out and said you only meant there were 'too many of them', and accused people, rather falsely, of attacking straw men. 

Secondly, you have taken the rather absurd decision to try and be a heel on your thread, questioning other posters' intelligence and reading comprehension when you fail to make clear points. These insults are almost always followed by 'buy my book'. WORST. SALESPITCH. EVER. If you really want a good read about booking and improving wrestling, then i recommend Ales Shane's Guide To Pro Wrestling Volume 1. Sadly, it is harder to get a hold of than this guy's book. 

Thirdly, you are discouting all of Europe. Yes, i understand that you are dealing with the American indies, but the idea that you cannot learn anything from one of the biggest markets outside of the USA and the spiritual home of catch wrestling is nonsense. Hell, it is the number one market for TNA. Plus your absurd remarks about America being 'where its at' are a few decades out of date. Yes, in the UK we pay a tax for our tv. It produces top quality news, documentaries and entertainment which are shipped all over the world and have no commercials (it pays for the BBC).


----------



## smokinglizard

wee bru said:


> I'M OUT
> 
> This is a ridiculous thread. Your problems with the indies are all entirely superficial things that aboslutely anyone could point out, yet you try and act like you are coming from some position of superior knowledge? You make these points which at first seem quite strong, then back out of them with your little escape clauses. For instance, the fat and thin wrestlers, you stated your problem with them very strongly, then backed out and said you only meant there were 'too many of them', and accused people, rather falsely, of attacking straw men.
> 
> Secondly, you have taken the rather absurd decision to try and be a heel on your thread, questioning other posters' intelligence and reading comprehension when you fail to make clear points. These insults are almost always followed by 'buy my book'. WORST. SALESPITCH. EVER. If you really want a good read about booking and improving wrestling, then i recommend Ales Shane's Guide To Pro Wrestling Volume 1. Sadly, it is harder to get a hold of than this guy's book.
> 
> Thirdly, you are discouting all of Europe. Yes, i understand that you are dealing with the American indies, but the idea that you cannot learn anything from one of the biggest markets outside of the USA and the spiritual home of catch wrestling is nonsense. Hell, it is the number one market for TNA. Plus your absurd remarks about America being 'where its at' are a few decades out of date. Yes, in the UK we pay a tax for our tv. It produces top quality news, documentaries and entertainment which are shipped all over the world and have no commercials (it pays for the BBC).


Simmer down.

It's a _*joke.*_

In fact the things I said about Europe were so plainly ridiculous, I don't see how anyone couldn't right away understand that it's a joke. Like when Chris Jericho said Canada sucks:






Do you really think Jericho thinks Canada sucks?

Joke.

Talking smack.

For fun.

To be funny.

An appropriate response would have been to either a) laugh, b) ignore, or c) talk some smack back.

I do understand that some people's sense of humor is very different than others. Some people are just completely unable to grasp sarcasm, cynicism, or inside jokes. They're very literal-minded. Their brains are just wired that way. So to those people, yes, you're right, they would find these posts very difficult to understand or unclear.



> Secondly, you have taken the rather absurd decision to try and be a heel on your thread, questioning other posters' intelligence and reading comprehension when you fail to make clear points. These insults are almost always followed by 'buy my book'. WORST. SALESPITCH. EVER.


Well...you might want to tell that to my book sales and my bank account. While the book certainly isn't a NY Times Bestseller -- it is a niche topic, of course -- book sales have been very brisk. People who are not so literal "get" the humor in it and enjoy it as entertainment.

Which is its intent -- inform and entertain.

For fun...you know?



> You make these points which at first seem quite strong, then back out of them with your little escape clauses...


Thanks for your input...this discussion is fun...but it's just a matter of clarifying one's position, which, I believe, all human beings do. To try to charge me with using "escape clauses" when I'm just trying to make myself clear is unfair. And kind of silly.



> This is a ridiculous thread.


I 100% agree! But then again, so is pro wrestling.


----------



## nevereveragainu

one more to add to the list

because there are already enough world/heavyweight titles on sky sports why would anyone care about another one that wasnt't simply, BEST IN THE COUNTRY OR CONTINENT, let alone (random array of letters)piece of metal that means i'm the best, OF WHAT EXACTLY?! HUH?!


----------



## Spike

So are we ever going to get the full 50 reasons or is this thread going to be taken over entirely by harsh criticism of the OP and generally ridiculous arguing by all concerned?


----------



## USAUSA1

SmokingLizard really need to speed up the process. I understand anticipation but we really need some more material.


----------



## nevereveragainu

Mr Deschanel said:


> So are we ever going to get the full 50 reasons or is this thread going to be taken over entirely by harsh criticism of the OP and generally ridiculous arguing by all concerned?


well lets go ahead and list em up


----------



## smokinglizard

nevereveragainu said:


> one more to add to the list
> 
> because there are already enough world/heavyweight titles on sky sports why would anyone care about another one that wasnt't simply, BEST IN THE COUNTRY OR CONTINENT, let alone (random array of letters)piece of metal that means i'm the best, OF WHAT EXACTLY?! HUH?!


You make a good point. Although I do have to admit, if you're running a wrestling promotion, you have to have a champion. Otherwise, what are the guys wrestling for? They have to be striving for something. But then, as you say, you wind up with 100 million "championships."

Indie wrestling is just way over-saturated.



Mr Deschanel said:


> So are we ever going to get the full 50 reasons or is this thread going to be taken over entirely by harsh criticism of the OP and generally ridiculous arguing by all concerned?


Worry not! No matter what happens, you _will_ get all 50 reasons! Unless, that is, I get hit by a bus or something. This is the 21st installment, meaning there are still 29 to go...we're not even half way there! So there's still much, much goodness yet to come. And trust me, I've already mapped out and documented all 50 reasons, and I'm saving the very best for last.

Now, considering how far we've come on this journey, let's reflect for a minute on what we've learned along the way...

1. Some fans here really, really like the two jobbers who call themselves "The Peacock Express." There was a very surprising outpouring of support for the Peacocks when I poked fun at them, which is good for them, as I've just learned that their Facebook fan page has increased from 24 "Likes" to 38. Way to go, guys! You're on your way. Please don't forget me when you make it to the very top. Please endorse my book, _Fixing the Indies_ along the way. You know, I hear "The Peacock Express" is going to be headlining shows in Bug Tussle, Oklahoma! Keep on truckin', guys!

2. Some fans here get really, really angry if you suggest that jiggly, nerdy fat kids who pretend they're wrestlers hurt pro wrestling's image. Like this guy:










You remember him, don't you? His name, as you can see, is Chuck Diamond. I received an update the other day that ol' Chuck received a huge pop at the last show he was on when he stepped through the curtain because of all the grief I've been giving him in "The Top 50 Reasons." One fan in attendance shouted out, "Norm can eat Chuck's [dirty word deleted]!" So good to see Chuck getting such warm support from that sellout crowd of 45.

3. Some fans here get even angrier if you suggest that skinny, nerdy kids who pretend they're wrestlers hurt pro wrestling's image. Like this guy:










You see, guys like the super hero above are perfectly acceptable and don't hurt ticket sales at all because, you see, there is no size requirement in pro wrestling...or so I'm told. Actually, you know, I guess these guys are right. After all, the kid above _does_ sell tickets. His mom and dad clearly buy two.

4. Some fans here believe that using duct tape to repair wrestling rings is A-OK because, hey, it's the indies! It's supposed to suck!

5. One guy even contacted me on Facebook and said, "All you're doing is finding things wrong with indy [sic] wrestling!" Well, duh! It's called, "The Top 50 Reasons Why Fans Don't Go to Indie Wrestling Shows."

6. People keep thinking that because I've started a thread here on a message board that there's no reason to buy my book, _Fixing the Indies_ because, you see, I'm "giving my book away for free" here. Evidently to them it's not possible to write about one thing in a book and then write totally different stuff on a message board.

7. There are guys involved in indie pro wrestling -- wrestlers -- who claim to have been wrestling in the indies for over 10 years and have never seen the girl-turns-against-her-wrestler angle. Wow. Really? I guess that's what happens when you spend most of those 10 years wrestling on your trampoline in your backyard -- there were no girls in sight to play the role.

8. If you're American and you make a joke about Europe, Europeans get really, really, really, really mad. I guess they're sensitive about that or something. USA! USA! USA! I wonder if it works on the Canadians, too? Let's try: Hey, Canadians, Canada sucks! You don't even understand that there are four downs in football, not three!

9. The pretty girl holding that title belt I included in the last installment is named SoCalVal, and she's a "ring girl," not a valet. Her job is to hold title belts and look pretty. Sorry, guys! I officially apologize for getting that wrong. Maybe I should watch wrestling or something and I would know this.

10. Injecting humor and poking at fans in a message board thread is -- according to an 18-year-old who's never written a book, has never wrestled a match, and probably never had a real full time job -- a bad sales tactic. Thanks, dude! Thanks for looking out for me. Any other pearls of wisdom you've acquired in your storied 18 years on earth you'd like to share?



USAUSA1 said:


> SmokingLizard really need to speed up the process. I understand anticipation but we really need some more material.


Your wish is my command! Here's installment 21 of 50!

And I apologize for the delay in between installments. I've been very, very busy promoting my new book, _Fixing the Indies_, available on Amazon and Barnes & Noble!

*This is episode 21 of the 50 part series entitled, "The Top 50 Reasons Why Fans Don't Go to Indie Pro Wrestling Shows."*

Reason #30: Contract battles.

This past Friday saw the debut of an all-new season of the UFC's hit reality show, "The Ultimate Fighter." If you live somewhere entirely remote -- like under a rock or in Europe -- and are thus unfamiliar with this show, the concept is simple: A bunch of wannabe UFC fighters live together in a house and then compete against each other to win a UFC contract.

The show has been immensely successful, some pundits even going so far as saying that the show saved the UFC from going bankrupt. Whether that's true or not, there's no doubt that the show is a great concept and big money for the UFC.

So how does this relate to why fans don't go to independent pro wrestling shows? Well, stay with me here...

If you've been following the "Top 50 Reasons" up until now (And if you haven't, go back to page 1 of this thread and get caught up!), you know that one of the most vexing, self-inflicted problems with pro wrestling -- especially the indies -- is copycatting. Wherever there is success, pro wrestling will copycat.

Remember when Sarah Palin was chosen as John McCain's VP running mate in the last presidential election? Sure enough, pro wrestling had its own Sarah Palin. Here she is now:










When MTV's idiotic "reality" show, "Jersey Shore" got over like Super Grover, sure enough, TNA gave us the pro wrestling version of that human trainwreck:










So it came as no surprise that when Dana White's "Ultimate Fighter" show got over, pro wrestling _had_ to follow suit, and, voila, WWE delivered us these annoying jackasses:










Yes, folks, it's the Nexus crew. The concept was, well, a complete ripoff of "The Ultimate Fighter" -- a bunch of young wannabe WWE wrestlers joined forces and started agitating for full WWE contracts. Actually, it was a ripoff of "The Ultimate Fighter" and WCW's classic nWo angle, because the way these geniuses decided to land their WWE contracts was by attacking WWE officials and announcers, interfering in main events, spitting in the faces of WWE's star wrestlers, and kidnapping WWE's general manager.

I didn't know that would work. Would it? I mean, could I, like, get a bank loan by going in to my local branch, grabbing the bank manager by his necktie, and dragging him from his desk across the bank floor? Maybe I could get a promotion at my current job by jumping my boss from behind, stuffing him in my car, and refusing to let him go until he agrees to bump my pay up?

You mean to say I've been going about it all wrong for the past 30 years?!

Anyway, you know, to watch this stuff, you either really gotta be stupid or you just have to be giving it a pass left and right. I mean, this is just so insipid.

Anyway, so here we have "The Ultimate Fighter" guys fighting -- literally -- for contracts and in WWE we have "newcomers" committing kayfabe felonies for contracts, so what do we get in the indies?

Sure enough, contract battles! Yes, folks, you read that right -- we now actually have independent pro wrestling promotions -- those wondrous "businesses" where shows are held in condemned National Guard armories and the "stars" are paid $20 a match -- running the contract angle.

I am _not_ making this up.

The indies are actually running angles where their wrestlers "fight" for contracts in their respective indie promotions! Forget the fact that there are no contracts in the indies and the fact that even if there were contracts, who would sign a contract to work for $20 a match?! That would be like Walmart signing old retired guys to contracts to work as greeters and hand out shopping carts.

I've even seen one indie promotion actually issue a "press release" (i.e., a post on a message board) to announce that one of their wrestlers had "asked for his release" from his "contract" and had been "granted" it! I'm not kidding!

I've also seen indies run the good old ladder gimmick match where they hang a briefcase from the ceiling tiles and tell 20 wrestlers that there's a contract inside of it, and the first guy who gets the briefcase gets signed to the contract!

(Never mind the fact that the ceiling is so low, the wrestlers can just reach up and grab the brief case without needing the ladder at all...)

So...wait...let's just suspend all ability to disbelieve and, well, all neuron activity and pretend just for a second that the indie promotion that runs its shows in the abandoned bingo hall and creates a "locker room" by hanging a big sheet of black, shiny garbage bag plastic in front of a hallway actually signs its wrestlers to contracts. Let's just accept that for a second. Well if that's the case, shouldn't the 19 guys who lose the stupid contract-hanging-from-the-ceiling match have to, you know, leave and not come back for the next show? After all, they're not on a contract, right? So why would they be allowed to wrestle for the promotion in the future?!

Oh, I can already hear the brickbats: "Oh, you're just picking indie wrestling apart," and, "You're being too critical," and "_Every_ wrestling promotion uses angles like that nowadays."

Yes, and all roach motels have roaches!

The big kind, the ones with wings and can fly and land on you while your in bed, trying to sleep.

BOTTOM LINE: This is an example of an angle that insults the fans' intelligence. It's just plain stupid to expect fans to believe that wrestlers whose day jobs are making sandwiches at Subway are signed to contracts in the indies. It's just way too great a leap of faith for any marginally intelligent fan to make. It's entirely unrealistic. If we want fans to come back and give indie wrestling a chance, we have to stop insulting their intelligence.

Oh, and by the way -- Super Grover rules! He _rules!_


----------



## Certified G

Ring Of Honor is an independant promotion, and they have contracts. DGUSA/EVOLVE have contracts too.. Probably not the sort of indies you're aiming at, but still - they're indies and they have contracts..


----------



## nevereveragainu

dude appealing to the lowest common denominator is almost guranteed money it still doesnt make it justified in the slightest


----------



## Berringer

smokinglizard said:


> 10. Injecting humor and poking at fans in a message board thread is -- according to an 18-year-old who's never written a book, has never wrestled a match, and probably never had a real full time job -- a bad sales tactic. Thanks, dude! Thanks for looking out for me. Any other pearls of wisdom you've acquired in your storied 18 years on earth you'd like to share?


 
I like how you bring this up but conveniently ignore the words of wisdom I gave to you. A thirty-two year old writer who has published two books locally and had his poetry, prose and short stories published in various magazines and volumes of collected works on an international level over the last twelve years. You don't seem to handle criticism very well at all, Norm; and that's too bad because you're about to get an earful. Everything you have done in this thread has proven one thing to me: you don't have the necessary respect for the profession in which you're currently working. You come off as someone who has made the leap from wrestling to writing without the slightest forethought of what you were getting yourself involved with; merely someone looking to gain exposure quickly, cheaply and unjustifiably. I'm ashamed to have someone like you even consider calling themselves a writer. It's an insult to the thousands of great architects of the written word who have existed over the course of history; it's an embarrassment that someone like you has the opportunity to have a book released when hundreds of fantastic authors...real writers who love and admire the profession they are in...are currently struggling to gain publishing deals.

I don't know anything about your career in wrestling, however I'd say it's a fair wager (if this thread is any indication) that you didn't achieve more success within that industry because you lacked respect for that profession as well. I'm sure you'll shoot back with an ignominious comment which you'll attribute to your "heel" persona and that's fine. I'm fairly sure you'll have plenty of posters come to your defense over this little tirade of mine and that's also fine. I've said my piece, not particularly because I think it will matter to you in the slightest, but because - as an individual with a lifelong love affair for the literary profession - I find this mockery unendingly offensive. I also felt there should be the smallest kernel of truth planted somewhere within this mess of a thread to let others know how a real writer views your nausea-inducing publicity stunt.




 


wee bru said:


> I'M OUT
> 
> This is a ridiculous thread. Your problems with the indies are all entirely superficial things that aboslutely anyone could point out, yet you try and act like you are coming from some position of superior knowledge? You make these points which at first seem quite strong, then back out of them with your little escape clauses. For instance, the fat and thin wrestlers, you stated your problem with them very strongly, then backed out and said you only meant there were 'too many of them', and accused people, rather falsely, of attacking straw men.
> 
> Secondly, you have taken the rather absurd decision to try and be a heel on your thread, questioning other posters' intelligence and reading comprehension when you fail to make clear points. These insults are almost always followed by 'buy my book'. WORST. SALESPITCH. EVER. If you really want a good read about booking and improving wrestling, then i recommend Ales Shane's Guide To Pro Wrestling Volume 1. Sadly, it is harder to get a hold of than this guy's book.
> 
> Thirdly, you are discouting all of Europe. Yes, i understand that you are dealing with the American indies, but the idea that you cannot learn anything from one of the biggest markets outside of the USA and the spiritual home of catch wrestling is nonsense. Hell, it is the number one market for TNA. Plus your absurd remarks about America being 'where its at' are a few decades out of date. Yes, in the UK we pay a tax for our tv. It produces top quality news, documentaries and entertainment which are shipped all over the world and have no commercials (it pays for the BBC).


 
Well spoken, wee bru. Well spoken indeed.


----------



## smokinglizard

Berringer said:


> I like how you bring this up but conveniently ignore the words of wisdom I gave to you. A thirty-two year old writer who has published two books locally and had his poetry, prose and short stories published in various magazines and volumes of collected works on an international level over the last twelve years. You don't seem to handle criticism very well at all, Norm; and that's too bad because you're about to get an earful. Everything you have done in this thread has proven one thing to me: you don't have the necessary respect for the profession in which you're currently working. You come off as someone who has made the leap from wrestling to writing without the slightest forethought of what you were getting yourself involved with; merely someone looking to gain exposure quickly, cheaply and unjustifiably. I'm ashamed to have someone like you even consider calling themselves a writer. It's an insult to the thousands of great architects of the written word who have existed over the course of history; it's an embarrassment that someone like you has the opportunity to have a book released when hundreds of fantastic authors...real writers who love and admire the profession they are in...are currently struggling to gain publishing deals.
> 
> I don't know anything about your career in wrestling, however I'd say it's a fair wager (if this thread is any indication) that you didn't achieve more success within that industry because you lacked respect for that profession as well. I'm sure you'll shoot back with an ignominious comment which you'll attribute to your "heel" persona and that's fine. I'm fairly sure you'll have plenty of posters come to your defense over this little tirade of mine and that's also fine. I've said my piece, not particularly because I think it will matter to you in the slightest, but because - as an individual with a lifelong love affair for the literary profession - I find this mockery unendingly offensive. I also felt there should be the smallest kernel of truth planted somewhere within this mess of a thread to let others know how a real writer views your nausea-inducing publicity stunt.


Yeah, you're right. I make people vomit. And I'm making James Joyce roll around in his grave right now. I'm such a shameful disgrace. The literary community called and revoked my membership card. Will you forgive me? Please? Will you call their 800 number and get me reinstated?

If you're so concerned about the honor of the great "architects of the written word," might I suggest you learn how to properly use the semicolon? Here's a good primer:

http://www.grammarbook.com/punctuation/semicolons.asp

It's great to see you back, Berringer! Have you bought a copy of my book yet? If yes, how are you enjoying it so far?


----------



## Berringer

Thank you for proving my point so quickly and exposing yourself further.


----------



## smokinglizard

Berringer said:


> Thank you for proving my point so quickly and exposing yourself further.


You're welcome! It's my pleasure!


----------



## JoseDRiveraTCR7

I just realize this thread is kind of pointless. I think smoking lizard has made several good points that people are being too critical on, but overall there's no point to this thread. You have posters refuting his points even though his points don't affect them since they're not in the business. And then you have smokinglizard, who is telling wrestling fans how to fix the indies even though there's nothing any of us can do to fix the indies. Most posters who have read this thread don't own a wrestling promotion so there's no point in telling us what needs to be fixed.


----------



## USAUSA1

The contract thing is dumb and while it's been done since the 70's, the monday night wars took it to another level and now we have pointless contract signings. 

Nobody buys into indy promotions contract signings.


----------



## Pinball Wizard Graves

I don't know who this norm character is, but he kept me reading all 12 pages of this thread. I never really pop into the indy section much but checked out the preview to the book a few weeks ago and now have been following this. Shit, I might even buy the book just to show some support. Good stuff man. Keep it coming.


----------



## nevereveragainu

depite all the anger tantrums a lot of what this dude is trying to get across does need to be said

i love the indies which is why i want to see the average standard to rise, but first one must be aware of the current situation


by the way i found a dead thread on here that might have an idea or two http://www.wrestlingforum.com/other...if-all-great-indy-feds-came-together-one.html


----------



## Punkhead

Yes. It is really pointless.


----------



## Saint 17

Berringer said:


> I like how you bring this up but conveniently ignore the words of wisdom I gave to you. A thirty-two year old writer who has published two books locally and had his poetry, prose and short stories published in various magazines and volumes of collected works on an international level over the last twelve years. You don't seem to handle criticism very well at all, Norm; and that's too bad because you're about to get an earful. Everything you have done in this thread has proven one thing to me: you don't have the necessary respect for the profession in which you're currently working. You come off as someone who has made the leap from wrestling to writing without the slightest forethought of what you were getting yourself involved with; merely someone looking to gain exposure quickly, cheaply and unjustifiably. I'm ashamed to have someone like you even consider calling themselves a writer. It's an insult to the thousands of great architects of the written word who have existed over the course of history; it's an embarrassment that someone like you has the opportunity to have a book released when hundreds of fantastic authors...real writers who love and admire the profession they are in...are currently struggling to gain publishing deals.
> 
> I don't know anything about your career in wrestling, however I'd say it's a fair wager (if this thread is any indication) that you didn't achieve more success within that industry because you lacked respect for that profession as well. I'm sure you'll shoot back with an ignominious comment which you'll attribute to your "heel" persona and that's fine. I'm fairly sure you'll have plenty of posters come to your defense over this little tirade of mine and that's also fine. I've said my piece, not particularly because I think it will matter to you in the slightest, but because - as an individual with a lifelong love affair for the literary profession - I find this mockery unendingly offensive. I also felt there should be the smallest kernel of truth planted somewhere within this mess of a thread to let others know how a real writer views your nausea-inducing publicity stunt.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well spoken, wee bru. Well spoken indeed.


I applaud this. If I was in an audience, I would start a slow clap.


----------



## FourWinds

I know in my case the one reason I never go to indy shows is that they just aren't that entertaining in my neck of the woods. I can watch bland and boring performances on a show like Smackdown from the comfort of my own home. Now if Chikara or something like it was around here....


----------



## Wrestling02370

I'd imagine a lot of fans dont go to indy shows for the same reason I dont go to bars to see a no-name local band. I just don't care about them.


----------



## smokinglizard

Yes, it's been a while since the last installment of "The Top 50 Reasons Why Fans Don't Go to Wrestling Shows." But fear not! Rest assured that I'm hard at work, writing the next installment as you read this. In the meantime, here's a quick update.

Writing this series has been a lot of fun. I've made a lot of friends, convinced a lot of folks to check out and buy my new book _Fixing the Indies_ (available at Amazon and Barnes & Noble), and even made some interesting enemies. Like I mentioned in an earlier post, it sure is a good thing that wrestling is fake, because several of these enemies are pro wrestlers and they really, really don't like me.

As I've said before, what are they going to do, suicide dive onto me?

Although that would be kind of cool. I can just imagine me going out to lunch to Chick-fil-A and some guy tries to hit me with a suicide dive from off the top of his pickup truck. Of course, all I'd have to do is, you know, step out of the way.

Hey, why is it when a pro wrestler does a suicide dive, the guy he's doing it against always catches him? Haven't you ever wondered that? I know I have. A while back we decided to write an email to wrestlers who have girls as valets, managers, tag team partners, or whatever to warn them that those girls will eventually turn on them. Let's write another one. This time let's ask about the suicide dive:



> Dear pro wrestlers:
> 
> Why is it that every time you get thrown out of the ring by your opponent and the referee starts counting to ten really, really, really, slooooooooooow, you never seem to notice your opponent climbing up to the top rope or running the ropes to prepare to jump down onto you? And then when your opponent does jump down onto you, how come you always catch him? Are you just being nice? I guess so. After all, I wouldn't want to see anyone -- even my opponent -- hit the concrete floor and smash his head open on the guard rail. Even though it would seem to the uneducated eye that catching your opponent every single time instead of just stepping out of his way is completely stupid and illogical, surely you must have your reasons. Is it because just letting your opponent land on the concrete floor and crack his skull wide open on the guard rail would make the match too easy to win? Is it because you guys are, like, really good sports or something? I just have to know.
> 
> Thanks!


Hopefully we'll get the answer soon. Incidentally, there's this one guy here on the boards who likes to be my fact checker. Maybe he'll give us the answer. He's the same guy who informed me that the hot chick who goes by the name "SoCalVal" is not a valet, but a ring girl. He also astutely pointed out to me that, contrary to my claim that WWE copycatted the UFC's TV show "The Ultimate Fighter" when they ran that asinine Nexus angle, WWE's TV show "Tough Enough" actually predates "The Ultimate Fighter." So I guess I have to issue yet another retraction: For the record, WWE did not copycat UFC; on the contrary, UFC copycatted WWE.

Thanks, Fact Checker Guy! Now please hurry up and let us know why pro wrestlers always catch a guy jumping down from the top rope.

Fact Checker Guy pretends like he doesn't like me, but then he reads every single installment of "The Top 50 Reasons" religiously. He's always one of the first to read the newest installment and then comment. Like he's reading this right now. I don't know, maybe Fact Checker Guy doesn't really like me or "The Top 50 Reasons" and just likes to point out that there are a lot of nitnoid, get-a-life "facts" about modern pro wrestling that I don't know.

Well let's just put that to the test, shall we? Ask me any question about what's going on in TNA right now. Go ahead, ask me anything. I _guarantee_ you I'll get it wrong.

Hey, you know what? The first installment of "The Adventures of Super Grover" aired in 1975. I was only six years old, yet I remember it so well. I was sitting on the floor at the coffee table, eating a stack of pancakes my mom had just made for me. Here's that very first episode below. Isn't YouTube great?






In this episode, a very young child is upset because his mother told him to take the public bus home and he doesn't know how. So our hero Super Grover shows up and tries to help him out. But then while Super Grover tries to figure out how to ride the bus -- as he doesn't know how, either -- the child figures it out on his own, hops on the bus, and leaves Super Grover perplexed, still trying to figure out the whole bus stop concept.

What quality entertainment!

Now, you know, you have to wonder, what parent would tell their small child to ride the public city bus alone? I mean, think about it -- Sesame Street was very obviously set in New York. What adult would let their kid ride on a bus in New York? And heck, the mom didn't even bother telling the kid _how_ to ride the bus! Who does that? Shouldn't that mom have been charged with reckless endangerment of a child?

I don't know, maybe they had the pedophiles in better check back in the 70s, but even if that were so, I would never, _ever_ have my kid ride the...



> RING!


Oh, wait, folks, that's my phone. Hold on.



> RING!


Hello? Yes? Yes, this is Norm. Huh? Oh. Oh. Well...what? Oh. Hmmm...yes, yes, I understand. Yes, I understand. No, no, don't do that. Yes, I understand. But I just thought that the readers would...umm...OK...fine.



> CLICK.


I'm back, folks. That was the moderator of this board. He just called to gently remind me that this is a mixed martial arts forum, not a Sesame Street forum. He said that if I don't stop babbling about Super Grover he was going to delete the thread and ban my account.

My bad.


----------



## nevereveragainu

it seems only video games can show how wrestling manuveurs in a street fight might be effective in self defense



smokinglizard said:


> As I've said before, what are they going to do, suicide dive onto me?
> 
> Although that would be kind of cool. I can just imagine me going out to lunch to Chick-fil-A and some guy tries to hit me with a suicide dive from off the top of his pickup truck. Of course, all I'd have to do is, you know, step out of the way.
> 
> Hey, why is it when a pro wrestler does a suicide dive, the guy he's doing it against always catches him? Haven't you ever wondered that? I know I have. A while back we decided to write an email to wrestlers who have girls as valets, managers, tag team partners, or whatever to warn them that those girls will eventually turn on them. Let's write another one. This time let's ask about the suicide dive.


check out 10:10-10:30 in this video






couldn't find this in just a clip sorry



smokinglizard said:


> Well let's just put that to the test, shall we? Ask me any question about what's going on in TNA right now. Go ahead, ask me anything. I _guarantee_ you I'll get it wrong.?


what are Samoa Joe's current mannerisms towards his teamup with Magnus?


----------



## smokinglizard

nevereveragainu said:


> what are Samoa Joe's current mannerisms towards his teamup with Magnus?


ANSWER: Who the hell is Magnus?


----------



## yomomma619

Heh, very interesting.


----------



## Kincaid

Good lord you're a child smokinglizard. This continues to be an awful thread.


----------



## Last Chancery

Berringer said:


> I like how you bring this up but conveniently ignore the words of wisdom I gave to you. A thirty-two year old writer who has published two books locally and had his poetry, prose and short stories published in various magazines and volumes of collected works on an international level over the last twelve years. You don't seem to handle criticism very well at all, Norm; and that's too bad because you're about to get an earful. Everything you have done in this thread has proven one thing to me: you don't have the necessary respect for the profession in which you're currently working. You come off as someone who has made the leap from wrestling to writing without the slightest forethought of what you were getting yourself involved with; merely someone looking to gain exposure quickly, cheaply and unjustifiably. I'm ashamed to have someone like you even consider calling themselves a writer. It's an insult to the thousands of great architects of the written word who have existed over the course of history; it's an embarrassment that someone like you has the opportunity to have a book released when hundreds of fantastic authors...real writers who love and admire the profession they are in...are currently struggling to gain publishing deals.
> 
> I don't know anything about your career in wrestling, however I'd say it's a fair wager (if this thread is any indication) that you didn't achieve more success within that industry because you lacked respect for that profession as well. I'm sure you'll shoot back with an ignominious comment which you'll attribute to your "heel" persona and that's fine. I'm fairly sure you'll have plenty of posters come to your defense over this little tirade of mine and that's also fine. I've said my piece, not particularly because I think it will matter to you in the slightest, but because - as an individual with a lifelong love affair for the literary profession - I find this mockery unendingly offensive. I also felt there should be the smallest kernel of truth planted somewhere within this mess of a thread to let others know how a real writer views your nausea-inducing publicity stunt.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well spoken, wee bru. Well spoken indeed.


Wise words from the man with a dancing ass GIF in his signature. Why not go the full nine and toss a pair of titties into your avatar space?

Honestly, this whole tirade of yours made me smile, and not in the "Oh, wow, that guy just totally burned the topic creator" way, but more a, "Holy shit, does this guy ever have his head up his own ass and he really is making a fool of himself -- where is my bucket of popcorn?" way. If I could count the number of ways this post cracks me up I'd have counted to a hundreds, so I'll pick out a few choice nuggets and see where that takes me.

For one, you're fairly self-obsessed. I nearly barfed upon reading you describe yourself as "an individual with a lifelong love affair for the literary profession," like you're so high and mighty, and like that in some way disqualifies the author of the book from being published. Since you're such a pro, I thought you would have known that there isn't some sort of skill threshold one needs to meet to put out a book. Hell, for all I know, the guy might just know the right people or have put the books out himself. So to rag on the man for having published two books while so many others struggle is, frankly, a stupid thing to say. Nice try at the emotional appeal, though, you sure had a good number of folks here buying your words as gospel. By highlighting the plight of other writers while shitting on someone else, you're doing well to make sure your fellow message board users agree with you.

Another thing that really split my sides was how you kept referring to yourself as a "real writer," as if you truly needed that additional stroke of the ego. That'd be like calling out Michael Bay for not being a "real director," despite the fact that he is, in fact, a real director and has the body of work to back it up, same as the author of this Fixing the Indys book. Just because you disagree with his style or his works or the way he carries himself doesn't make him any less a "real writer" than it does you. Hemingway and Snooki: Both published writers, both "real" writers. That just burns you up inside, doesn't it? Why, as an individual with a lifelong love affair for the literary profession, it should!

I think what got to me the most was the bit about how the author doesn't know how to accept criticism. Be that as it may, I would rather not be able to accept criticism, and let that be what offends me, than be offended by every little goddamn thing I saw and disagreed with in my everyday life. The author of this book, as well as its contents and some of the things he has said on this message board, pissed you off so much that you had to offer him a critique? And a scornful one at that? Maybe you should take a step back yourself and work on how easily offended you are, because this little display was a bit much. True professionals, as I am sure you would describe yourself, would not find insult in what this man is doing. True professionals, true, "real" writers, would focus on their own shit instead of engaging in a back and forth with someone they don't know or have ever met -- on a wrestling-themed message board. (That's the ludicrous part of it to me, actually; two quote-unquote "writers" duking it out on a fucking online forum.)

Sorry, it just takes a little more than five-dollar words and some emotional appeals to get me behind what you're saying. Now, I've never met the guy you're bashing, nor do I even particularly care to read his book or the rest of this topic, so don't think I'm defending him. All I'm saying is I see through your shit, and before you call out someone else, maybe take a look in the mirror yourself once in a while. I mean, seriously, does the thought of being a "real writer" with "respect" for "the business" not at all cross through your mind before getting into written spats with people on a wrestling board? You're supposed to be the professional one here, but the only thing that came across professional were your actual words. (Which, while nice and flowery, make you sound like a haughty know-it-all. What part of "know your audience" do you not understand? You're on a message board, not writing the next great American novel. You could tone it down just a hair.)


----------



## peachchaos

This thread has no redeeming qualities.

The original poster should be banned for shilling his product so much. That's not why I come here.

His book is also widely speculative. Perhaps if he ran a successful wrestling show, he wouldn't need to write a book speculating why nobody came to his shows.


----------



## nevereveragainu

U WANNA FIX THE INDYS?!


1. Get every indy fed to close shop

2. put all their money copyrights inventory and talent into one pocket and warehouse

3. tell every wrestler to either dedicate themselves to wrestling full time or stick to their day job

4. sign all wrestlers on board to unfair long term contracts ensure that if they make money for anyone, it'll be for the cause and the cause only

5. apply Brion Dixons highly efficient business model in every possible place that one might make money in

6.only put wrestlers that look like thay can hold candles to wwe/tna/mexico/japan whatever on the shows

7. force them to wear ring gear that is as less revealing as possible

8. only have a few titles to be the main prizes of whatever region of the world this idea can do shows in

9. have a ranking system and everything else legit sports have

10. advertise by enforcing propaganda that confronts the public IN THE STREETS about every misconception they have about wrestling

11. make the show as real as can be to get the public second guessing the whole "ITS FAKE" bulls**t

ie: GET THEM OFF THE INTERNET

12. NO MORE IN RING PROMOS, PLEASE!!


----------



## Shotakan

This is quite possibly the worst thread I ever read on these forums. And I only skimmed through it.


----------



## Post-Modern Devil

Wow, people are getting WAAAY too bent out of shape over this thread. If you don't like it then leave or at least be constructive. I normally defend internet posters, but the hate here is getting fucking rediculous.

Don't worry about them OP, this is one of the most entertaining threads on wrestlingforums and the reason I come to the other wrestling section. You're abrasive but its that abrassiveness in addition to the concept in general is what makes me LIKE your series. Keep up the good work and I can't wait to see the rest of it.


----------



## USAUSA1

The OP kind of killed the momentum of this thread by waiting too long to post stuff.


----------



## smokinglizard

An observation on the human experience...

Take a look at these comments posted by some of the loyal readers of this thread:



wee bru said:


> I'M OUT
> 
> This is a ridiculous thread.





Berringer said:


> ...I find this mockery unendingly offensive. I also felt there should be the smallest kernel of truth planted somewhere within this mess of a thread to let others know how a real writer views your nausea-inducing publicity stunt.





Kincaid said:


> Good lord you're a child smokinglizard. This continues to be an awful thread.





peachchaos said:


> This thread has no redeeming qualities.





Shotakan said:


> This is quite possibly the worst thread I ever read on these forums. And I only skimmed through it.


 
Now look at these:




Daesim said:


> This is the best thread I have ever read on a wrestling forum. It has insight and hilarity. It has common sense versus stubborn pride. It has my attention.
> 
> I anticipate reading the remaining reasons why fans don't go to Indy shows, as well as the outraged responses of the ( small minority of posters) people determined to put themselves over in this forum by depicting the Author as an ignorant troll. It's genuine anger too, which is mesmerizing to observe.
> 
> This thread about wrestling is better than wrestling. 5/5





Thomas Batista said:


> I don't know who this norm character is, but he kept me reading all 12 pages of this thread. I never really pop into the indy section much but checked out the preview to the book a few weeks ago and now have been following this. Shit, I might even buy the book just to show some support. Good stuff man. Keep it coming.





nevereveragainu said:


> depite all the anger tantrums a lot of what this dude is trying to get across does need to be said...





Post-Modern Devil said:


> ...this is one of the most entertaining threads on wrestlingforums and the reason I come to the other wrestling section. You're abrasive but its that abrassiveness in addition to the concept in general is what makes me LIKE your series. Keep up the good work and I can't wait to see the rest of it.


Isn't interesting how polarized our opinions on certain topics are? This thread has become sort of like the Republican/Democrat thing. I guess the old cliche is true: There's just no accounting for taste. Some people will love what you do, others will despise it. Isn't that funny?



USAUSA1 said:


> The OP kind of killed the momentum of this thread by waiting too long to post stuff.


Well let's get it started again!

*This is part 22 of the 50 part series entitled, "The Top 50 Reasons Why Fans Don't Go to Indie Wrestling Shows."*

Reason #29: Legends

I've gone after many sacred cows in this series, and in this installment, I'm going after another one -- and this one's a biggie.

Take a look at this:










If you watched pro wrestling at all during the 1980s, you know who this is, and this image of him surely sent shivers down your spine. It's Tommy "Wildfire" Rich, former NWA champion of the world. He's 55 years old and he looks like death warmed over. I'm told he can barely walk and is in desperate need of a wheelchair.

Oh, but he still wrestles.

Yes, you read that right -- Tommy Rich is still wrestling...in the indies, of course.

Folks in the wrestling business refer to guys like ol' Tommy "Wildfire" Rich as a "legend." And, as evidenced by the photo above, many "legends" still tour around the country, working any show that is willing to pay their "appearance fee" and book them.

Let's examine how this works. Indie promoters, desperate to get anyone to buy a ticket to their awful show, look around for performers with some name recognition. These "legends," as they call themselves, contact said promoters and offer to come work for them for a special appearance fee. Now mind you, the rest of the guys on said card -- you know, the no name guys who are busting their butts trying to move up the ranks and get noticed -- get paid $20 apiece, if they're lucky. The legend, meanwhile, sets his "appearance fee" at anywhere between $100 - $400 (or more). Plus the promoter typically has to pay travel.

The idea is, the promoter will book said legend, put the legend's name on his show's flyers, and people will flood through the doors, desperately wanting to get an up-close glimpse of some washed up dude who can barely walk and now lives in a trailer park. The "logic" behind all of this is that the promoter will make so much extra cash from having this "famous" guy on his card, he'll make up the money he shelled out to pay his appearance fee.

Are you with me so far? Good. Let's continue.

Now, what you may not know is this: Most indie promoters are also wrestlers. Furthermore, since they own the promotion in question, they also tend to be the promotion's champion. How convenient, right?

So guess who gets to wrestle the legend that night?

You guessed it! The promoter!

OK, so let's fill in some blanks here. So we have some washed up, broken down "legend" in one corner. In the other corner is the promotion's promoter, who also tends to be old and broken down. Doesn't this sound like it'll be an awesome match? Since the "legend" is badly hobbled, he refuses to execute certain pro wrestling maneuvers.

Like bumping.

So the match plods along, badly, embarrassingly, pitifully until it mercifully comes to some ripoff finish like a double count out. The legend doesn't have to do a job and the promoter doesn't lose his belt. Again, how convenient.

At the end of the show, the promoter meets the legend in the locker room and the legend proceeds to give the promoter glowing reviews about how good his ability is, how good his dropkick is, blah, blah, blah. Here's the deal -- the legend doesn't really feel that way, he's just stroking the promoter's ego so that he'll hire the legend back again for another appearance fee!

Easy payday, sucker!

The reality of the situation? Yes, maybe a random diehard fan here or there might get curious and buy a ticket to such a show to go mark out for the legend in question. Maybe. But it's highly unlikely that you'll sell enough extra tickets to cover the appearance fee. After all, very few people -- especially the younger fans of today -- could care less about these has-beens who are still inexplicably hanging on to their "careers." And I hate to say it, but for a lot of these "legends," the appearance fee thing is just a con job they pull on mark promoters so they can afford their next fix.

Further, having these crippled, out of shape, rundown old guys on your card makes your promotion look desperate and cheap. It makes you look like you're just reaching for anything to get a few extra people through your gate, that your regular product isn't good enough to sell tickets on its own.

BOTTOM LINE: The "legends" need to stay on the sidelines.

P.S.: This thread has officially gone over 20,000 views! Many thanks to all the supporters of this thread. And to those of you who hate the thread and have gone to great lengths to tell me how you hate it, I thank you even more!


----------



## USAUSA1

I disagree about your opinion on legends. Legends first and foremost wrestle to help pay bills. I've stated in other threads how the wrestling business is the lowest paid among other sports. For example, you got TNA stars working second jobs outside wrestling, Robbie E during his whole run as TNA TV champion was a teacher and still is. If you look at the world of basketball, someone like Stephon Marbury who will never play in the NBA again, can go to China and make millions in his post NBA career. Majority of former main eventers and superstars from the 80's and 90's are broke and still wrestling. Very few post career success stories. And I know people say Sting have this successful real estate business but he keep signing these one year deals with TNA for $500,000 plus. He knows he needs the money to maintain his lifestyle.

Legend shows usually draw better than regular indies. MACW with Scott Steiner, Buff Bagwell,Midnight Express does great business. 

To get rid of legends on the indy scene, we need to fix the major promotions like WWE and TNA first. Raise the pay for these guys.


----------



## Spike

I think you're absolutely right about 'legends'. Fine if people want to see someone just for who they are, but you can't build a business around that. It's a different thing in the big companies because they still have to be at least half-decent to be on board.


----------



## Last Chancery

peachchaos said:


> This thread has no redeeming qualities.
> 
> The original poster should be banned for shilling his product so much. That's not why I come here.
> 
> His book is also widely speculative. Perhaps if he ran a successful wrestling show, he wouldn't need to write a book speculating why nobody came to his shows.


I don't think it's in anybody's greater interests to argue the moral qualities of this forum where, just a few boards over, users with a certain post count can scoop up downloadable wrestling matches that otherwise would have cost money. If shilling a wrestling book on a wrestling forum CALLED "Wrestling Forum" is frowned upon, then in what regard do we hold illegal downloading? Wait, this is the Internet, never mind.

His book definitely is speculative, but I don't think the entire thing is without merit. It could be an entertaining read for all I know. But running a professional wrestling show seems more difficult than one would like to believe, and the entire industry is in a state of disrepair, which is why the author feels his book is necessary. At the end of the day it doesn't seem like a heavily researched, much less sourced, product, but that doesn't mean it's boring or worthless. At least the writer has some insight into the industry and isn't picking and choosing things from his ass to copy onto paper.


----------



## jaw2929

Still loving your posts Smokinglizard. Really enjoying it. Admittedly you've come off smugly and a little douchey, but if read in the proper context (ie. not taking most of what you say personally) and not getting ridiculously nit-picky and fucking offended at every single point you make.... Well it's definitely been one of the most enjoyable threads I've read on any online forum. 

Interested to see more of what your "Top Reasons" are!


----------



## smokinglizard

Quick update, folks! 

For fans (and haters) of "The Top 50 Reasons," tomorrow night at 7PM MT, 8PM CST, 9PM EST, I'll be a guest on "The Full Nelson" radio talk show to discuss my new book, "Fixing the Indies"!

"The Full Nelson" is GoMilehigh.com's first show dedicated to professional wrestling, featuring WWE, TNA, Independent Wrestling and more! WWE Hall of Famers Mick Foley and Vader have been recent guests on "The Full Nelson," along with many other WWE and TNA stars.

So tune in and listen to the discussion! Just click the link below!

www.gomilehigh.com


----------



## jaw2929

smokinglizard said:


> Quick update, folks!
> 
> For fans (and haters) of "The Top 50 Reasons," tomorrow night at 7PM MT, 8PM CST, 9PM EST, I'll be a guest on "The Full Nelson" radio talk show to discuss my new book, "Fixing the Indies"!
> 
> "The Full Nelson" is GoMilehigh.com's first show dedicated to professional wrestling, featuring WWE, TNA, Independent Wrestling and more! WWE Hall of Famers Mick Foley and Vader have been recent guests on "The Full Nelson," along with many other WWE and TNA stars.
> 
> So tune in and listen to the discussion! Just click the link below!
> 
> www.gomilehigh.com


I will totally listen to this, thanks boss.


----------



## smokinglizard

*This is part 23 of the 50 part series entitled, "The Top 50 Reasons Why Fans Don't Go to Indie Wrestling Shows."
*

Reason #28: Crappy flyers

Let's be realistic, folks -- many indie pro wrestling promoters aren't millionaires. They don't have the financial resources of Vince McMahon, Dixie Carter, or Ted Turner to promote their shows. As such, they're forced to use creative, low cost advertising strategies to get the word out about their shows. I have no problem with that.

What I _do_ have a problem with, however, is when these low cost strategies plainly look, well, low cost.

Cheap, that is.

The key to success in any grassroots "guerilla" marketing plan is to make your business look bigger, wealthier, and more successful than it actually is. Why? Well, because it's just human nature for people to trust businesses that look big and successful and be wary of businesses that look fly-by-night or are one-man-shows.

So in the pro wrestling business, one cornerstone to a potentially successful grassroots marketing plan is distributing flyers. This strategy is so critical to success in indie pro wrestling, I dedicate an entire section to flyers and handbills in my book, _Fixing the Indies._ One of the finer points I really footstomp in that section is how important it is that your flyers look really, really good. Hand a potential fan a sharp, professional flyer, and that guy might just buy a ticket to your next show. Hand a potential fan a crappy, laughably-made flyer and that guy is going to do just that -- laugh.

At you.

So as with almost every single installment in this series, I bring to you a visual aid.

And this one, folks, is a real doozy.

I may have uncovered the _worst_ indie pro wrestling flyer _ever_!

It's so bad, it's good.

So without further ado, behold:










Ah, yes, there it is in all its blurry, pixelated glory. It was for a show in 2009 run by a promotion in Alabama named SXW. (Sorry, guys! Please take this as constructive criticism!)

Notice the legible numbers on the flyer. I added those numbers. You can tell that I added them because they're, you know, legible. These numbers are your guide to the fun tour of epic fail on which you are just moments away from embarking. I'm going to guide you through this mess number by number. Let's begin.

1. First and foremost, you can't help but notice the bizarre, poorly taken photograph that serves as the background image for the flyer. We have some chubby SWAT or military guy accosting a skinny Santa Claus. Now I ask you, what on God's blue earth does the SWAT guy accosting Santa have to do with pro wrestling? Yeah, yeah, I get that they're trying to funny. Ha ha ha. But still, a flyer is supposed to immediately convey to the viewer what's being sold. A flyer for a carnival has ferris wheels and cotton candy on it. A flyer for a circus has clowns and elephants on it. A flyer for a pro wrestling show has...Santa Claus on it?

2. Look at that awesome logo! Clearly the brain trust at SXW decided to save some money on logo design by hiring an 11-year-old to design it for them...with Microsoft Paint.

3. What's with those shooting Stars of David? Yes, I understand they're shooting stars, but they're not just regular old shooting stars. They're Stars of David...you know, the Jewish stars with six points rather than just five. What's up with that? Did the SXW guys think that they needed to add something to make the flyer more politically correct? I can imagine it: "OK, guys, for our December show we're going to have Santa Claus getting busted and going to jail, so that'll make all the Christian people happy, but what about Jewish fans? We need something that'll appeal to them..."

4. Now here's the biggest, most laughable fail of them all. This is so bad, it makes me want to believe this flyer was a joke. Notice the pink arrows I've added to the image. Look at what they're pointing at. Yes, folks, this flyer is so incredibly horrible, they used the same color text as the background. See the word "X-treme" near the top? Notice that the "X" is lost in the SWAT guy's helmet. Then look at the "Holiday Havoc" text. It's so bad, you can barely make out the "H". It makes it look like the show's name is "oliday Havoc"! Then right below that fail we have the text, "SXW X-Treme Sportatorium". But you can't even see the "S" in "SXW". Right below that we have the address of the "sportatorium," but the "E" in "Headland" is almost invisible. For crying out loud, people -- the text on a flyer must be perfectly legible. I mean, for real? Am I really having to point that out?

5. SXW evidently has a champion of some sort, but you have no idea who he is because you can't read his name under his picture. Again, the SXW geniuses used green text on a green background.

6. There are Confederate battle flags on the flyer! Earth to SXW, come in, SXW: The Confederate battle flag is a racially divisive symbol! Now I admit I tend to be a real stickler at times, but I'm pretty sure most business school professors would agree with me when I say that putting a racially divisive symbol on your advertising is a bad idea. Think about it -- you're alienating a huge bloc of potential customers. And for what? Yes, I understand that the battle flags are for the wrestler who calls himself, "The Confederate Kid." That's his gimmick. He's southern, so he wants to tell everyone he's from the south by wearing the battle flag. Got it. But why are you putting the battle flag on your flyer?! If a wrestler wants to wrap a racially divisive symbol around his own body, that's one thing. But for a promotion to officially and prominently put the Confederate battle flag on their flyer is just plain birdbrained.

Hell, birds wouldn't even do that.

7. SXW features a bondage-looking wrestler named "Street Bandit." I know this not because I read the flyer -- because his name is illegible -- but because I've seen Mr. Bandit at other indie shows in my area. Evidently Mr. Bandit has started a trend with the name "Bandit" because there was a girl who goes by the name "Sexy Bandit" on this very same show. And there's a midget who goes by the name "Short Bandit," too. No, I am not making this up. Anyway, I bet our friend Street Bandit spends more money on electrical tape when he tapes up his forearms than he makes by appearing in the show.

Also notice the fancy backdrop all the wrestlers are posing in front of. It's black garbage bag plastic. Notice, though, how the backdrop only goes about halfway down in the picture. Evidently they didn't have the funds to buy two garbage bags for the photo shoot.

Oh, I am so going to hell.

8. Surprise! SXW has a pro wrestling "school"! For just $200 a month you too can learn these awesome inner secrets of the biz! And they have "Easy Payment Plans" available. Yes, folks, you can finance your wrestling training. Classes are filling up, so hurry! This offer won't last long!

9. Hey, look! SXW actually has sponsors! One of their sponsors is TC'_________S Lawn Care. Don't ask me why there is so much space between the apostrophe and the "S". Details, details. Yes, I'm such a stickler. Evidently TC didn't want to pay the 11-year-old who designed the SXW logo, so he designed his own logo by cutting and pasting clipart out of Microsoft Word. How clever!

10. Another one of SXW's sponsors is a company that calls itself "Whitestar Productions." Here's their company website, as I know you can't read it off the flyer: death-valley-crew.tripod.com/whitestarproductions. Yes, folks, they're using one of those free website accounts from Tripod to host their website to save the $100 it costs yearly to register your own domain name and have a professional hosting service host your site for you.

BOTTOM LINE: To succeed in business -- any business -- you have to advertise. Advertise, advertise, advertise! And when you do advertise, your advertisements must be professional. You must clearly and boldly communicate what you're selling to your potential customers. Distributing flyers that are illegible, pixelated, and garbled actually does the _opposite_ of what you're trying to accomplish -- it scares people away rather than draw them in!

Abraham Lincoln once famously said: "Tis better to be silent and be thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt."

Oh, how true...


----------



## jaw2929

Well said Smoking Liz, well said sir. That's a fucking ATROCIOUS flyer! One of the worst ever, for sure.


----------



## ViolenceIsGolden

Can somebody show Frank Goodman #28.


----------



## smokinglizard

It's time for another installment, folks!

First, time for some news. Did you catch me on "The Full Nelson"? The "Full Nelson" is a great radio show out of Denver dedicated entirely to pro wrestling. And this is a real radio show folks, not a podcast. It has producers, sponsors, commercial breaks, etc. It's the real deal. I was very pleasantly surprised in paricular by the professionalism of the show's host, Roberto Padilla. This is a really fun show to listen to. Other guests on "The Full Nelson" include Mick Foley, Vader, Diamond Dallas Page, and Bobby Lashley. If you missed my appearance, you can listen to the replay here: The Full Nelson Radio Show.

In other news, former WCW and WWE Cruiserweight Champion and WWE World Tag Team Champion "Hurricane" Shane Helms put over my book, _Fixing the Indies_ on his Internet TV show, "Highway 2 Helms." Here's the link to the episode: Highway 2 Helms. Check it out! Aside from putting my book over, Shane is a genuinely funny, entertaining, and engaging personality. His show is definitely worth at least checking out. Click the link I just posted!

Now let's get on with the show!

*This is part 24 of the 50 part series entitled, "The Top 50 Reasons Why Fans Don't Go to Indie Wrestling Shows."
*

Reason #27: No buildup

Allow me to tell you a "story": An evil empire builds a space station that can destroy a planet. The blueprints for this space station fall into the hands of a farm boy who uses them to blow the space station up.

The end.

Yes, of course, folks, this is the basic plot of "Star Wars."

Sucks, doesn't it?

It sucks because there's just so much more to the movie. But essentially, that _is_ the essential plot of one of the most profitable movies of all time.

The lesson to take from this is the fact that what makes a movie (or book or TV series or whatever) good isn't so much the intricacy of the story or the complexity of the conclusion, but rather, the _buildup_.

What makes a movie or book good is a simple, logical story that slowly and naturally builds up to a proper conclusion. Unfortunately today, Hollywood seems to be under the impression that "more is more" and "the bigger, the better." That is, they seem to believe that the more "story" they jam into the two hours they're alloted for their movies, the better their movie will be.

Indie pro wrestling suffers from this problem gravely. In the indies, every single worker who shows up for a show believes he's a star, and as such, he demands that he be allowed to deliver every single thing he's got in his arsenal...in one single match.

What's wrong with that, you ask? Simple: There's no buildup. Every single match on every single card is a dizzying array of "spectacular" spot upon "spectacular" spot upon "spectacular" spot. It's like watching an NFL game where every single play results in a touchdown.

More is better, right?

In Ole Anderson's great book, _Inside Out_, Ole told the story of a time when he was a young kid in the business, working for the great Verne Gagne, the kingpin of the legendary American Wrestling Association. Ole was on the undercard one night, and he desperately wanted to impress Gagne so that he could move up the card. So he went out for his match and really delivered the best match he could work. He worked his opponent from pillar to post, pulling out every stop and using every move he had in his repertoire.

When the match was over, he headed back to the locker room, fully convinced that Verne would be thrilled with his performance. But instead, when he got there, he was stunned to find Verne fuming.

"Don't ever do that again!" Verne shouted at him.

"Why? I gave my best match ever," Ole pleaded. "I thought you'd be pleased!"

Verne said, "A wrestling show is a story. The main event is the climax of the story. The undercard matches are the buildup. Everything builds up to the main event! You upstaged my main event!"

Verne's point is simple: If your undercard matches are as good or better than the main event, what's the point in even having a main event? Remember, the main event is the last thing fans see on a wrestling show. Their impression of that main event is what they walk away with. Five matches could really suck prior to the main event, but if the main event is awesome, fans won't remember those five sucky matches; they'll just remember how good the main event was. On the other hand, if the five matches before the main event were as good or better than the main event, the main event will be totally forgettable.

This is precisely the problem in the indies. In the "big leagues" of the territory days, there were powerful bookers and promoters like Verne Gagne who controlled the show. They told the wrestlers what they could and couldn't do in the ring. They told them what made sense and what didn't. In the indies, on the other hand, it's a free-for-all. Each indie wrestler climbs into the ring, dead set on the notion that he's going to give the fans the best match they've ever seen.

And that results in...no buildup.

The same holds true when telling epic stories. Think of Hogan vs. Andre, possibly the most "epic" match of all time. The match itself sucked...bad. Really bad. Andre was fat, in terrible health, and sucking wind. Hogan was, well, Hogan. But the match was epic because of the awesome _buildup._










McMahon and company built that match up for _months_ before it actually went down. Months. It was all they talked about on free TV. They did all sorts of interviews, vignettes, and story segments that all built up the big match. They had Andre come out for an interview, stick his finger in the camera, and iconically say, "I want _you_, Hogan!" They had Hogan come out and do "heartfelt" interviews where he talked about how hurt he was by being betrayed by his "best friend" Andre. They had Mean Gene Okerlund interview Andre and demand to know why he needed Bobby Heenan managing him. Then they did a big "contract signing" where Andre flipped the table and gave Hogan a thorough beatdown.

Buildup, buildup, buildup.

The result? WrestleMania III set the record for largest indoor attendance for a live sporting event in North America with sales exceeding 93,000.

(Oh, please, Fact Checker Guy, spare us the refutation of that number! We all know the figure is sometimes disputed.)

Typically in the indies, on the other hand, there's no buildup of a big match at all. It just happens. It ordinarily goes down like this: Ding! Ding! Ding! The show starts. Out comes the babyface champion. He grabs the mic and starts saying some stuff. Doesn't matter what. Just stuff. Then some really bad music blares from the fluttery PA speakers and out comes a heel. The heel gets in the ring with his own mic and starts talking some counter stuff. Again, doesn't matter what. Then the indie promotion's "commissioner" -- typically a fat guy in a really cheap, ill-fitting suit -- gets in the ring and says something to the effect of, "Well we're going to settle this little dispute right now...tonight! You two are in the main event for the title!"

For some "variety," throw in some third guy and it becomes a Three Way Dance (or Triple Threat or whatever stupid name that stupid type of match is called now) for the title.

Then in the main event, the title match goes down and something "big" happens.

Next month -- rinse and repeat!

You see where I'm going with this? When something "big" happens each and every time you run a show, the "big" thing just isn't very, well, big. The Super Bowl is big. It takes, what, 22 weeks of buildup to go down? The epic rematch between Muhammed Ali and Smokin' Joe Frazier was big. It took _three years_ of buildup to go down!

Three years!

In indie pro wrestling, we're lucky if there's three _hours_ of buildup!

BOTTOM LINE: Good stories sell tickets. A good story is one that is a) simple b) logical and c) involves lot and lots and lots and lots and lots of quality _buildup_. If indie promoters want people to come see their shows, they need to learn how to tell stories.


----------



## jaw2929

Well said sir, I agree.

Though admittedly the length of buildup doesn't really mean much, so long as it's done correctly.

For example, I believe the buildup to the Lesnar/Cena match at Extreme Rules has been far more impressive than the buildup to Cena's match with Rock this year at WM.


----------



## smokinglizard

jaw2929 said:


> For example, I believe the buildup to the Lesnar/Cena match at Extreme Rules has been far more impressive than the buildup to Cena's match with Rock this year at WM.


Yes, I believe you have a very good point there. As I understand it, the brass at WWE didn't get the bump in PPV buys they were expecting from the return of the Rock. So either the Rock doesn't having the drawing power he used to or something was done wrong with the buildup.


----------



## THECHAMPION

smokinglizard said:


> Yes, I believe you have a very good point there. As I understand it, the brass at WWE didn't get the bump in PPV buys they were expecting from the return of the Rock. So either the Rock doesn't having the drawing power he used to or something was done wrong with the buildup.


Early reports are that this Wrestlemania was the highest selling wrestling PPV of all time.

Not enough of a bump?

What could they have been expecting?


----------



## USAUSA1

THECHAMPION said:


> Early reports are that this Wrestlemania was the highest selling wrestling PPV of all time.
> 
> Not enough of a bump?
> 
> What could they have been expecting?


They did 700,000 buys in north america. Dont be fool by those worldwide numbers. Brock crush those numbers plenty of times in the ufc.


----------



## smokinglizard

THECHAMPION said:


> Early reports are that this Wrestlemania was the highest selling wrestling PPV of all time.
> 
> Not enough of a bump?
> 
> What could they have been expecting?


Looks like you're probably right and I stand corrected. Here is the article that was my source: Wrestlemania 28 Buyrate Disappoints.

But that article cites Bryan Alvarez as its source. But here Bryan on his own site seems to contradict that completely: WWE Announces Wrestlemania 28 Sets All Time Company PPV Records.

So it looks like you're right and I'm wrong. I stand corrected.


----------



## chris2038

It's good to be back...

Finally all caught up, and damn, this thread keeps getting better and better. Keep up the solid work Norm!

I hope the next instalment is on events/matches having too much build-up, only to be followed by a lack of delivery


----------



## FITZ

smokinglizard said:


> Well let's get it started again!
> 
> *This is part 22 of the 50 part series entitled, "The Top 50 Reasons Why Fans Don't Go to Indie Wrestling Shows."*
> 
> Reason #29: Legends
> 
> I've gone after many sacred cows in this series, and in this installment, I'm going after another one -- and this one's a biggie.
> 
> Take a look at this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you watched pro wrestling at all during the 1980s, you know who this is, and this image of him surely sent shivers down your spine. It's Tommy "Wildfire" Rich, former NWA champion of the world. He's 55 years old and he looks like death warmed over. I'm told he can barely walk and is in desperate need of a wheelchair.
> 
> Oh, but he still wrestles.
> 
> Yes, you read that right -- Tommy Rich is still wrestling...in the indies, of course.
> 
> Folks in the wrestling business refer to guys like ol' Tommy "Wildfire" Rich as a "legend." And, as evidenced by the photo above, many "legends" still tour around the country, working any show that is willing to pay their "appearance fee" and book them.
> 
> Let's examine how this works. Indie promoters, desperate to get anyone to buy a ticket to their awful show, look around for performers with some name recognition. These "legends," as they call themselves, contact said promoters and offer to come work for them for a special appearance fee. Now mind you, the rest of the guys on said card -- you know, the no name guys who are busting their butts trying to move up the ranks and get noticed -- get paid $20 apiece, if they're lucky. The legend, meanwhile, sets his "appearance fee" at anywhere between $100 - $400 (or more). Plus the promoter typically has to pay travel.
> 
> The idea is, the promoter will book said legend, put the legend's name on his show's flyers, and people will flood through the doors, desperately wanting to get an up-close glimpse of some washed up dude who can barely walk and now lives in a trailer park. The "logic" behind all of this is that the promoter will make so much extra cash from having this "famous" guy on his card, he'll make up the money he shelled out to pay his appearance fee.
> 
> Are you with me so far? Good. Let's continue.
> 
> Now, what you may not know is this: Most indie promoters are also wrestlers. Furthermore, since they own the promotion in question, they also tend to be the promotion's champion. How convenient, right?
> 
> So guess who gets to wrestle the legend that night?
> 
> You guessed it! The promoter!
> 
> OK, so let's fill in some blanks here. So we have some washed up, broken down "legend" in one corner. In the other corner is the promotion's promoter, who also tends to be old and broken down. Doesn't this sound like it'll be an awesome match? Since the "legend" is badly hobbled, he refuses to execute certain pro wrestling maneuvers.
> 
> Like bumping.
> 
> So the match plods along, badly, embarrassingly, pitifully until it mercifully comes to some ripoff finish like a double count out. The legend doesn't have to do a job and the promoter doesn't lose his belt. Again, how convenient.
> 
> At the end of the show, the promoter meets the legend in the locker room and the legend proceeds to give the promoter glowing reviews about how good his ability is, how good his dropkick is, blah, blah, blah. Here's the deal -- the legend doesn't really feel that way, he's just stroking the promoter's ego so that he'll hire the legend back again for another appearance fee!
> 
> Easy payday, sucker!
> 
> The reality of the situation? Yes, maybe a random diehard fan here or there might get curious and buy a ticket to such a show to go mark out for the legend in question. Maybe. But it's highly unlikely that you'll sell enough extra tickets to cover the appearance fee. After all, very few people -- especially the younger fans of today -- could care less about these has-beens who are still inexplicably hanging on to their "careers." And I hate to say it, but for a lot of these "legends," the appearance fee thing is just a con job they pull on mark promoters so they can afford their next fix.
> 
> Further, having these crippled, out of shape, rundown old guys on your card makes your promotion look desperate and cheap. It makes you look like you're just reaching for anything to get a few extra people through your gate, that your regular product isn't good enough to sell tickets on its own.
> 
> BOTTOM LINE: The "legends" need to stay on the sidelines.
> 
> P.S.: This thread has officially gone over 20,000 views! Many thanks to all the supporters of this thread. And to those of you who hate the thread and have gone to great lengths to tell me how you hate it, I thank you even more!


I actually have really mixed feelings about this one. My local indy company booked Tito Santana for one of their shows and I think it actually helped them a lot. They had about 200-250 people at the show that he was booked at and this is about double what they normally manage to get for their shows. I've been to a lot of these shows so there are a few other fans that I talk to and even a couple of the wrestlers. I got the impression that while they paid Santana a good chunk of money (I want to say it was like $800) they actually did make up the cost by having all the extra fans (100 fans at $12 a person gets them $1,200). The guy that runs the company stopped by and I talked with him for a minute and he seemed really happy at the turnout and I don't think he would have been if he was losing money because of how much he paid the legend. 

Drake Evans (the promoter) is also a wrestler and a top guy their but he didn't book himself in the main event with Santana either. In fact the way they set up the main event worked well for everyone. They booked Tito Santana in a tag match with their face champion and had the heels cheat and work over the champion. It all set up a well done hot tag because everyone wanted to see Tito get int he ring. Granted I wasn't thrilled with how he easily dispatched the heel team but they made another face looks strong ans sent the fans home happy. 

I really thought that Santana's appearance did a lot more for the company than just a bigger gate for one show as well. The next show I was at had a lot more people than usual (let's say 180 up from the normal 125) and this show didn't have anyone well known appearing on the show. I think the legend they brought in attracted more fans to go to their shows because they had an all around good time at the last show. The wrestlers at the show with Tito stepped up their game and everyone had a good time. 

That's really where the legends can help I think. If you can put on an entertaining show for one bigger crowd then you can get your average crowd size to increase for at least a couple shows and hopefully permanently. 

Maybe the one experience that I've had with it is an exception to the rule. In Your Face Wrestling promoted the hell out of the show and about Tito Santana being there and it worked for them. I guess if a company doesn't stress the fact that they have someone big coming in or puts that information on a shitty flier like the one I saw in this thread the legend will just end up costing them a lot of money. Or you could be booking the wrong legend that nobody knows about and just throwing the money away.


----------



## chris2038

smokinglizard said:


> What makes a movie or book good is a simple, logical story that slowly and naturally builds up to a proper conclusion. Unfortunately today, Hollywood seems to be under the impression that "more is more" and "the bigger, the better." That is, they seem to believe that the more "story" they jam into the two hours they're alloted for their movies, the better their movie will be.
> 
> Indie pro wrestling suffers from this problem gravely. In the indies, every single worker who shows up for a show believes he's a star, and as such, he demands that he be allowed to deliver every single thing he's got in his arsenal...in one single match.


Agreed 110%. The "more is more" agenda has nearly killed my interests in movies and wrestling. This is exactly why I hated the film Inception; 8 hours worth of story jammed into 2.5 or whatever length they allowed it to go.

The indies are INDEED plagued with this as well. I believe a well structured card with plenty of direction is needed to prevent overkill. This is where "teamwork" kicks in. From my experience, teamwork (if any), only existed within the participants of each match. It obviously should extend beyond that. Each match should hold a purpose. There should be no "time fillers". Every participant on the card should be well aware of their specific role and more importantly, they should execute that role accordingly.

I once recall fans complaining about some venue up here not having a liquor license. They stated that consuming alcohol was required in order to enjoy the show. And no, the company that ran out of this venue did not book lousy fat tubs of shit or beanpole wannabe wrestlers. Far from that actually. "This stuff gets old after the first three matches. Once you've seen a few, you've seen them all." THAT was the consensus between fans. 

Every match had every wrestler hit every finisher or trademark in the book. Sure, the first couple shows were cool, but then it all got old real fast. This company gave the fans everything they thought they wanted. If only those innovative spots and creative moves occasionally occurred (and f’n meant something), that once successful company might still be around.


----------



## smokinglizard

chris2038 said:


> I once recall fans complaining about some venue up here not having a liquor license. They stated that consuming alcohol was required in order to enjoy the show. And no, the company that ran out of this venue did not book lousy fat tubs of shit or beanpole wannabe wrestlers. Far from that actually. "This stuff gets old after the first three matches. *Once you've seen a few, you've seen them all*." THAT was the consensus between fans.
> 
> Every match had every wrestler hit every finisher or trademark in the book. Sure, the first couple shows were cool, but then it all got old real fast. This company gave the fans everything they thought they wanted. If only those innovative spots and creative moves occasionally occurred (and f’n meant something), that once successful company might still be around.


Notice the emphasis I added. How true that notion is! It's like chocolate -- the first few bites are delicious. Then it goes to being just OK. Then if you keep eating, you want to throw up. A little bit of chocolate is an awesome treat; too much and you're ready to hurl.

How can promoters and workers not just get this?

Actually this comment is a great segue into the next installment of "The Top 50 Reasons."

*This is part 25 of the 50 part series entitled, "The Top 50 Reasons Why Fans Don't Go to Indie Wrestling Shows."* We're at the halfway mark!

Reason #26: No jobbers.

Take a look at the guy below. Recognize him?










If you watched the NWA back in the 80s, you know him. He's George South, the journeyman jobber whose job was to make the NWA's stars of the time look very, very good. He wrestled -- and lost to -- the biggest NWA legends of the era -- Ric Flair, Sting, Dusty Rhodes, the Road Warriors, Barry Windham...you name him and chances are good George South lost to him.

Same is true about other legendary jobbers like Steve Lombardi, Dennis Stamp, Barry Horowitz, Jake Milliman, and "Iron" Mike Sharpe. These guys toured the country, losing to the best, which is exactly what made the best the best.

The formula was pretty simple and deadly effective: Pick a new guy to push. Slap a cool name on him. Call him "Lex Luger," "The Ultimate Warrior," or "The Big Bossman," and have him come out and squash a jobber every week. The match would allow the guy getting the push to showcase his "devastating" moves and develop his character. The guys doing play-by-play and color would really hype the guy up big. And since pro wrestling is fake, the guy you push didn't have to have any real athletic ability, he just had to be big, imposing, and look good.

The jobbers did the rest.

They did all the heavy lifting.

The guys getting the push? They were on easy street.

You know what I always wanted to see and I still think would have been awesome but never really happened? I would have loved it if a promotion would have picked some huge monster like Zeus or Sid Vicious and have him come out new and push him to the moon, just as if they were pushing any other guy they were really trying to get over. You know, really, really push the guy. Have him beat jobber after jobber after jobber after jobber. Even have him do the no-sell act to portray the whole "invincible" gimmick.

Then one day have the "monster" come out for what would seem like just another squash match against some ordinary jobber and have the jobber just totally whip his ass.

That would have been awesome.

I'm sure there were a few bookers at that time who kicked the idea around (WCW sort of did it with the Mulkey Brothers, but not really), but, alas, no one had the guts to actually do it.

Anyway, whenever I hear an old-timer like me wax nostalgic about the good old days of pro wrestling, oftentimes they're not quite able to communicate why pro wrestling back in their day was so much better than it is today.

But I can tell you one very good reason why: Because there are no true jobbers anymore.

Jobbers made the whole show go. How? Well, this ties back in to my last post about how indie pro wrestling lacks buildup. Pro wrestling back in the "glory days" was so good because there was such excellent buildup. The bookers of that era got the audience pumped up about what was going to happen next. They got fans thinking that something "big" was brewing, and they tuned in week to week to find out what that "big" thing was going to be.

The jobbers were the lynchpin to all that. No matter what it is you like about pro wrestling, you must admit that fundamentally the show comes down to this: Two big names face off in a really, really big match.

Hogan vs. Andre

Hogan vs. Warrior

Flair vs. Rhodes

Flair vs. Steamboat

Steamboat vs. Savage

Iconic matches between two big names. Matches forever cemented in the collective memory of pro wrestling fans the world over.

But how did the big names become big names? Simple: Jobbers.

This is one of the key problems with indie wrestling today. There just aren't enough jobbers.

Oh, I can hear the lamentations already: "Norm, squash matches suck!" and "Norm, no one wants to be a jobber!"

Exactly. That's exactly one of the major reasons why people don't go to indie wrestling shows -- because there are no big names. There are no superstars. In the indies, you see, _everyone_ is a superstar. _Everyone_ wants his turn at holding the toy replica belt. No one wants to be a loser.

In a world where everyone is a millionaire, there are no millionaires. Money loses its value.

The same holds true in the world of pro wrestling. If everyone is a star, no one is.

In my last post I talked about how it's a bad thing when a midcard match upstages the main event. You should have seen the flak I got from indie wrestlers over that. "Everyone should always try to be the best!" I was told. "Everyone should try to outdo the other matches on the card!" I was informed. "If I'm on the midcard and my match is better than the main event, then the promoter should put me in the main event!" I was further told.

Uh huh.

And keep on entertaining those throngs of 40 fans and making $5 a match.

Build up! It's not about _you_, it's about the show! It's about telling a story. It's about entertaining the fans so that they want to see more.

It's about making _money_!

It is _not_ about every Tom, Dick, and Bubba trying to get himself over as the next Stone Cold. Sure, you can do that, I suppose, and, yes, your ego probably and understandably demands that you _should_ do that, but guess what?

No one is paying to come see you!

BOTTOM LINE: To make indie wrestling exciting and marketable, you have to have superstars, and the only way to build up superstars is with losers. Lots of them. There have to be more losers than winners. If everyone wins, the show sucks.

You know how to make the old game "Musical Chairs" more exciting? Take more chairs away. What do you end up with? More losers every time the music goes off.

Oh, and how do you find jobbers for the indies? Simple: Students. Teach new students how to tie up, run the ropes, and bump safely and voila! Instant jobber. Pay your dues, son.


----------



## USAUSA1

smokinglizard said:


> Notice the emphasis I added. How true that notion is! It's like chocolate -- the first few bites are delicious. Then it goes to being just OK. Then if you keep eating, you want to throw up. A little bit of chocolate is an awesome treat; too much and you're ready to hurl.
> 
> How can promoters and workers not just get this?
> 
> Actually this comment is a great segue into the next installment of "The Top 50 Reasons."
> 
> *This is part 25 of the 50 part series entitled, "The Top 50 Reasons Why Fans Don't Go to Indie Wrestling Shows."* We're at the halfway mark!
> 
> Reason #26: No jobbers.
> 
> Take a look at the guy below. Recognize him?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you watched the NWA back in the 80s, you know him. He's George South, the journeyman jobber whose job was to make the NWA's stars of the time look very, very good. He wrestled -- and lost to -- the biggest NWA legends of the era -- Ric Flair, Sting, Dusty Rhodes, the Road Warriors, Barry Windham...you name him and chances are good George South lost to him.
> 
> Same is true about other legendary jobbers like Steve Lombardi, Dennis Stamp, Barry Horowitz, Jake Milliman, and "Iron" Mike Sharpe. These guys toured the country, losing to the best, which is exactly what made the best the best.
> 
> The formula was pretty simple and deadly effective: Pick a new guy to push. Slap a cool name on him. Call him "Lex Luger," "The Ultimate Warrior," or "The Big Bossman," and have him come out and squash a jobber every week. The match would allow the guy getting the push to showcase his "devastating" moves and develop his character. The guys doing play-by-play and color would really hype the guy up big. And since pro wrestling is fake, the guy you push didn't have to have any real athletic ability, he just had to be big, imposing, and look good.
> 
> The jobbers did the rest.
> 
> They did all the heavy lifting.
> 
> The guys getting the push? They were on easy street.
> 
> You know what I always wanted to see and I still think would have been awesome but never really happened? I would have loved it if a promotion would have picked some huge monster like Zeus or Sid Vicious and have him come out new and push him to the moon, just as if they were pushing any other guy they were really trying to get over. You know, really, really push the guy. Have him beat jobber after jobber after jobber after jobber. Even have him do the no-sell act to portray the whole "invincible" gimmick.
> 
> Then one day have the "monster" come out for what would seem like just another squash match against some ordinary jobber and have the jobber just totally whip his ass.
> 
> That would have been awesome.
> 
> I'm sure there were a few bookers at that time who kicked the idea around (WCW sort of did it with the Mulkey Brothers, but not really), but, alas, no one had the guts to actually do it.
> 
> Anyway, whenever I hear an old-timer like me wax nostalgic about the good old days of pro wrestling, oftentimes they're not quite able to communicate why pro wrestling back in their day was so much better than it is today.
> 
> But I can tell you one very good reason why: Because there are no true jobbers anymore.
> 
> Jobbers made the whole show go. How? Well, this ties back in to my last post about how indie pro wrestling lacks buildup. Pro wrestling back in the "glory days" was so good because there was such excellent buildup. The bookers of that era got the audience pumped up about what was going to happen next. They got fans thinking that something "big" was brewing, and they tuned in week to week to find out what that "big" thing was going to be.
> 
> The jobbers were the lynchpin to all that. No matter what it is you like about pro wrestling, you must admit that fundamentally the show comes down to this: Two big names face off in a really, really big match.
> 
> Hogan vs. Andre
> 
> Hogan vs. Warrior
> 
> Flair vs. Rhodes
> 
> Flair vs. Steamboat
> 
> Steamboat vs. Savage
> 
> Iconic matches between two big names. Matches forever cemented in the collective memory of pro wrestling fans the world over.
> 
> But how did the big names become big names? Simple: Jobbers.
> 
> This is one of the key problems with indie wrestling today. There just aren't enough jobbers.
> 
> Oh, I can hear the lamentations already: "Norm, squash matches suck!" and "Norm, no one wants to be a jobber!"
> 
> Exactly. That's exactly one of the major reasons why people don't go to indie wrestling shows -- because there are no big names. There are no superstars. In the indies, you see, _everyone_ is a superstar. _Everyone_ wants his turn at holding the toy replica belt. No one wants to be a loser.
> 
> In a world where everyone is a millionaire, there are no millionaires. Money loses its value.
> 
> The same holds true in the world of pro wrestling. If everyone is a star, no one is.
> 
> In my last post I talked about how it's a bad thing when a midcard match upstages the main event. You should have seen the flak I got from indie wrestlers over that. "Everyone should always try to be the best!" I was told. "Everyone should try to outdo the other matches on the card!" I was informed. "If I'm on the midcard and my match is better than the main event, then the promoter should put me in the main event!" I was further told.
> 
> Uh huh.
> 
> And keep on entertaining those throngs of 40 fans and making $5 a match.
> 
> Build up! It's not about _you_, it's about the show! It's about telling a story. It's about entertaining the fans so that they want to see more.
> 
> It's about making _money_!
> 
> It is _not_ about every Tom, Dick, and Bubba trying to get himself over as the next Stone Cold. Sure, you can do that, I suppose, and, yes, your ego probably and understandably demands that you _should_ do that, but guess what?
> 
> No one is paying to come see you!
> 
> BOTTOM LINE: To make indie wrestling exciting and marketable, you have to have superstars, and the only way to build up superstars is with losers. Lots of them. There have to be more losers than winners. If everyone wins, the show sucks.
> 
> You know how to make the old game "Musical Chairs" more exciting? Take more chairs away. What do you end up with? More losers every time the music goes off.
> 
> Oh, and how do you find jobbers for the indies? Simple: Students. Teach new students how to tie up, run the ropes, and bump safely and voila! Instant jobber. Pay your dues, son.


200% agree with you about the lack of squash matches and jobbers in wrestling. TNA really needs to follow this formula because they have no stars. However, I don't see how this can work on an indy level of a company like ROH,PWG,Chikara who pride themselves on competition. That's their niche. Me personally, I grew up on 80's,90's,00's wrestling and can honestly say I had more pleasure watching weekend shows with squashes more than the competitive matches. Seeing Faces of Fear destroy someone tag team every saturday morning was the highlight of my weekend.


----------



## nevereveragainu

if you wanna make money then dont do any wrestling on the show

do anything else, replace the wrestling with pole dancing and it'll have same effect if not better


----------



## THECHAMPION

You couldn't be more wrong on the jobbers thing.

If I pay to come to your show and half the matches on the card are squash matches I can guarantee I'll never show up at another one of your shows.

It's not 1985 any more, the audience has evolved, there are frankly way more entertainment options then there were in those days. If you don't entertain me this time, I'm not going to continue coming back.

WWE would be one thing, they should use more jobbers on regular tv.

But if I'm searching out indy wrestling it's to see more competitive matches the type that that I can't see on Raw every week for free.

I mean I wouldn't mind a squash on a card, but I think even 2 or 3 would be enough to put me off.


----------



## USAUSA1

I think indy promotions with weekly tv definitely need squash matches. 

I think if you trying to build up a new guy, put him in squash matches before anything else.


----------



## chris2038

THECHAMPION said:


> You couldn't be more wrong on the jobbers thing.
> 
> If I pay to come to your show and half the matches on the card are squash matches I can guarantee I'll never show up at another one of your shows.
> 
> It's not 1985 any more, the audience has evolved, there are frankly way more entertainment options then there were in those days. If you don't entertain me this time, I'm not going to continue coming back.
> 
> WWE would be one thing, they should use more jobbers on regular tv.
> 
> But if I'm searching out indy wrestling it's to see more competitive matches the type that that I can't see on Raw every week for free.
> 
> I mean I wouldn't mind a squash on a card, but I think even 2 or 3 would be enough to put me off.



Bloody hell. Come on.

Half of the matches? Of course not. The obvious point you missed (you're far from the first one here to do so) is that indy fans need to witness build up. That is all. How would anyone in their right mind think it's plausible to book four squash matches?

Also, there is a big difference between "jobbing" and getting squashed. Doing "the job" means you are losing clean for the purpose of putting someone else over. Getting squashed entails getting your ass kicked hard and quick for the purpose of making the other guy look invincible. Not enough guys on the scene are willing to do EITHER for the greater good of the show or the scene. I've witnessed plenty of rasslers bitch and complain to the trainer/promoter about jobbing 2-3 shows in a row. Some even threatened to quit (that's right... $80 in monthly training fees GONE) if they didn't get put over ASAP. 

It used to be a methodological system; train, travel all over, get squashed, do that for a long time, then when you're ready, you'd become a jobber, then perhaps a low-mid carder, etc. Egos were well tested all while everyone was kept in line. It was through this process that newbie’s gained an appreciation for the industry. It used to be an honor for a noob to get squashed by a veteran or the next big thing. Now everyone wants to take shortcuts. They’ll take advantage of any situation they can, just so they can “win”, look cool, and post pictures on facebook with their hand raised by the ref. In summary, everyone wants to be called a superstar, but nobody wants to earn it. 

Remember Lesnar circa 2002? What better way to showcase his talents than to have him rip through the undercard for the first couple months? Then there was King of the Ring - guys like Test and RVD did the job. Then everyone became ridiculously curious as to what Lesnar could really be capable of. I was curious of two things – if and how he'd be earn a shot at the title, and if someone else would end up pulling an upset on him out of nowhere. Sure, they fucked the dog with the dumb mind-games angle with him and The Rock leading up to SS, but in the context of Norm's post, they built Lesnar up to be someone whom everyone was curious to see

Edit: Just read the last part of your post... Sorry, I was mainly replying to your first three lines. Depending on the product/card, it all depends. More than one textbook squash match is obviously too much. Then again, there is no reason not to be creative with it! Anything done right will keep you coming back for more. Just like in his post about the lack of creativity some of these promoters/rasslers have nowadays... it is their job to ALWAYS keep things fresh and exciting. After all, the “Top 50 Reasons” are all interrelated.


----------



## SnRWrestling

haha keep em coming


----------



## SnRWrestling

nice book! sell back your copy for a .72 gift card lol


----------



## wee bru

I know i said i wouldn't be back, but over the last couple of weeks i noticed something that i really dislike about the indies. 

UNMOTIVATED TRAINEES SELLING TICKETS/RUNNING THE SHOW

Most shows use their trainees to hand out flyers for events in the weeks running up to the event, to sell tickets, run the door, sell merch and take photos for the fans. But i've been to so many shows where these people have absolutely no enthusiasm, no passion, can't even put on a smile and seem to be socially backwards. 

Case would be an excellent show i went to recently. About a fortnight before the show, there were people in the town with flyers for the event. I spotted one guy with a flyer, but he wasn't handing them out. I had to actually walk up to him and ask him what the flyer was for before he paid any attention to me walking past him repeatedly. The same was true for his three friends. I said to him "so what is this about?" and he replied "wrestling". I asked him where and when and he replied "it tells you on the flyer". FFS, he should have been excited to tell me about the show, forcing flyers into people's hands. 

Another event i went to had next to no advertising. On the night of the event there wasn't even a sign up outside, just a guy on the door. They drew a total of 14. They could easily have had a trainee in wrestling gear out the front drumming up interest, because there was a lot of people walking past. I feel thats a showmanship thing that is missing, we've lost the Carny skills of drumming up attention. 

When you get inside for these shows, the trainees are running everything, but with no enthusiasm. It looks like they have all been press-ganged into being there. 

Thats my only major gripe. That and when they try to do backstage pretaped interviews and the sound equipment is so poor it sounds like someone taped it on a cameraphone.


----------



## smokinglizard

wee bru said:


> I know i said i wouldn't be back, but over the last couple of weeks i noticed something that i really dislike about the indies.
> 
> UNMOTIVATED TRAINEES SELLING TICKETS/RUNNING THE SHOW


Hello, Wee Bru. Good to see you back.

On the point of trainees -- couldn't agree more. Unmotivated trainees = free labor.

And you know what they say -- you get what you pay for.

*This is part 26 of the 50 part series entitled, "The Top 50 Reasons Why Fans Don't Go to Indie Wrestling Shows."*

Reason #25: T-shirts.

What's that? You say you're an indie pro wrestler and you don't like going to the gym? You don't like curling dumbbells, running laps, doing deep squats, or sweating it out on the elliptical trainer? Is P90X just not for you? Do protein powder and chicken breasts make your stomach turn? Don't have time for all that sweat and effort?

No problem!

Just get yourself one of these:










It's what we insiders in the indie pro wrestling "biz" refer to as a "t-shirt."

It fixes everything. Got a gut from drinking too much Mountain Dew while playing thousands of hours of "Madden"? Are your arms so skinny you could use wristbands as elbow pads? Don't worry -- just get yourself one of these babies and no one will know! You'll fool everyone.

I wonder why no one in boxing fights with a t-shirt on? I guess they haven't learned the secret yet.

Anyway, I suppose we have this guy to thank for this abomination:










Yes, it's the legendary Scott Levy, better known as Raven.

Now, before we go any further, let me be clear: I liked Raven. I liked him a lot. He was a very charismatic, entertaining, and creative performer. His stuff was innovative and legendary. He was so much fun to watch...back when he was, like, 30.

So, please, no hate mail. I'm really growing weary of the obscenities and death threats posted on my Facebook wall.

I really -- sincerely -- did like Raven back in his heyday. But even so, he is largely to blame for the all-too-common atrocity of wearing a t-shirt while engaging in the sport of professional wrestling. And for that, Mr. Levy, I will never forgive you.

In fairness, however, Raven wore the t-shirt as part of his "grunge" gimmick. The grunge look was, after all, white hot back in the mid-90s, and Raven was innovative by bringing that angst-filled, alienated, sociopathic motif to the the squared circle. It's how he got over. Way over.

But that was Raven, folks.

And you're not Raven.

So stop copying him.

It boggles the mind how young guys in the indies will see somebody -- one person -- get over with some gimmick and then they all copycat it, thinking they'll get over with it, too. Raven wore a t-shirt in the ring, so it's OK for me to wear one. Dusty Rhodes was fat, so it's OK for me to be fat. Cena wears sneakers in the ring, so it's OK for me to wear them.

The whole appeal of a gimmick is its uniqueness. If everyone does it, it sucks! When Dusty did the Bionic Elbow, it was cool. But if everyone does it, it's stupid. When Sean Michaels did the Sweet Chin Music, it was awesome. But if everyone does it, it's cheap.

Come on, people -- do I really have to explain this? Is this even a discussion?

BOTTOM LINE: Enough with the t-shirts. You're not fooling anyone. The t-shirt is just another addition to the very long litany of things that damage the presentation of pro wrestling.

Yes, yes I know -- I'm preaching to the choir and annoying the transgressors.


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## wee bru

I agree with the T Shirt comment. I don't see many guys over here with the T-shirts, but when i do get to see some American Indies, you always get a few guys in T's.

I'm not against the T, there may be a time when it really suits a gimmick, but you want to make sure you are the only one on the card wearing one. Generally in wrestling, you'll be most successful when you are doing the opposite of everyone else. If everyone is wrestling in t-shirts, by not wrestling in one you'll stand out. If everyone is wearing long tights, wear trunks. If everyone is fat/skinny, be in shape. 

When it comes to copying successful wrestlers, i'm all for it. What worked once will likely work again. You just need to go for less obvious sources. Right now too many people try to copy the Attitude Era guys, Raven, Austin etc, they should all be off limits. But the generation before that, Hogan, Savage, Warrior, Hitman etc are excellent targets to take bits and pieces from, especially as the business now is back to being more family orientated. 

Wrestling goes in cycles. Fans are given a product. They get used to it. Someone does something radically different, makes a lot of money, everyone copies it. This product becomes the norm. Someone comes along and does something different, probably the thing that came before, it becomes popular. REPEAT.


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## wee bru

Just thinking about the gimmick thing, i know a ton of guys have taken after Dynamite Kid, but isn't it funny how each generation has a really obvious Dynamite guy? 

Dynamite Kid 1 - Tom Billington
Dynamite Kid 2 - Chris Benoit
Dynamite Kid 3 - Davey Richards

At some point, Ric Flair will retire and there will be a third Nature Boy.
Big Show will retire and we'll try to find the next Andre the Giant. 

Personally, as a trainee, i'm waiting for Liger to retire. I want me some of that. 
Tiger Mask is pretty old. Black Tiger just got busted for drug smuggling.


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